From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Nov 26 08:23:19 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34F2CE4F3C9; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 08:23:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xxjack12xx@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wm0-x236.google.com (mail-wm0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BBD903590; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 08:23:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xxjack12xx@gmail.com) Received: by mail-wm0-x236.google.com with SMTP id r68so29356628wmr.1; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 00:23:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Nc3MI33kqhQk4ktQRv8xXWytmTz7RrZu92DOG7XlXcs=; b=S0mseIMyeLZFggIxySMbQdhtBYFUhJZbeSS9NdnompDbmaCJkmi4AmMzbZZJlrnF6s 6UzDGYH3q2u+/0ylENVjKbu90LETW3cnXcHrD8uftIN9cjp/fAJ5kCd64tu+sSaSmbkY 35PXix/hLsPcgdrAb4Mj7KLscOeT8acrEk/VkL5liP/QdN3mFd8fmjQD0NvTmMoVWILw 34GiXwabFq8Fsh7kmTe3LKOM6CRv0thAZoVqsQCydV5X1qpgvjFVSm9CWgcTE/+21sq5 5NPUtGmJRThocTAxHb2R/VByA5E45ULFBIRmKVgsXgeckx8HOH2LnBRqLWtY5JwMxl2Q WQlQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Nc3MI33kqhQk4ktQRv8xXWytmTz7RrZu92DOG7XlXcs=; b=EfEf0Me1WPmN8QTfzJqPBfvwC30Vy0xgnjdCgpCwuUrZeW+7dMBkcKtPgyova2nrgS ccnPgmTVeRnhj2Oxqtyfb84A2qeiGVNLuETDwPA5edE898Bhku1EHwJVTs0nm9YgUhv4 DxwqqUVUW0Wso4zPKL1VeDFgWXOiL3hVlFS5IKCs9fumW20jtSJY0q/rj6NkEMW6eqZQ 8uJN6y8nsRkLIS2aBXNIPqM1z5Tvu+IEodoNXKKjqN5ktKmD9iM9eYB9m6irqyeTYh+u R6P9o5D+pGG78CwIXUCIH/e2m84QR44/Z0wUjrMvFt3YW4YLLVUOfj8WXNRDtL16a9fs lrFg== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX4jRo2z3CsQxMQLf0hFafQZ+jfi9si1nOwUsQrIKBx2k1rwR8Fi p7FrgSvKvo797StI4YsqdiAjfcO1iKyiHPvjpb4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMYasFeZL+QZtTbzWcdkSkjCA24K08yAmCI+GZ6StplKrN5XT04WvbQemW96/o+kMH/dW7wINJtzuTzMy6F4N64= X-Received: by 10.28.131.2 with SMTP id f2mr12848807wmd.137.1511684596575; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 00:23:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.143.97 with HTTP; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 00:22:35 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <201711251918.vAPJI2IB072754@slippy.cwsent.com> References: <201711251918.vAPJI2IB072754@slippy.cwsent.com> From: "Jack L." Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 00:22:35 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: The future of fortune(6) To: Cy Schubert Cc: Adrian Chadd , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , "Julian H. Stacey" , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 08:23:19 -0000 On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 11:18 AM, Cy Schubert wrote: > In message mail.gmail.c > om> > , Adrian Chadd writes: > > hi, > > > > Pardon me, but it's 2017 and the 4.3BSD system index isn't an immutable > bible > > . > > > > As a general push to packaging things in general, turning fortune into > > a package seems like some low hanging fruit. > > > > > > > > -adrian > > I see no reason why fortune(6) cannot be a port. Much of /usr/games (IIRC > that's where it was) has been gutted anyway and not only that but other > more functional parts of 4.4BSD have been culled and are simply gone. > > I think the way forward is: > > 1. Make fortune a port. > > 2. Whatever was in games and is in ports could be installed through a > bsd-games meta-port. > > People should realize that ports are just as valid as base. Not everything > should be in base. This will become truer once base is fully distributed as > packages. A monolithic base is so 1960s. Even the IBM mainframe I worked on > in the 1970s used packages (IBM called them FMIDs). Let's get on with the > 1970s and move it to ports/packages. > > > Yes! I've always been annoyed (in the past) with doing an rm -rf /usr/games in my new server installs. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Nov 26 14:29:17 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29223DE7621; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 14:29:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from land.berklix.org (land.berklix.org [144.76.10.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "land.berklix.org", Issuer "land.berklix.org" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B5FDE6C468; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 14:29:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from mart.js.berklix.net (pD9FA9D37.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [217.250.157.55]) (authenticated bits=0) by land.berklix.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id vAQES2q3087856 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 26 Nov 2017 14:28:07 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by mart.js.berklix.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id vAQET3Xv080874; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 15:29:03 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id vAQDmCqn000352; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 14:50:05 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Message-Id: <201711261350.vAQDmCqn000352@fire.js.berklix.net> To: "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: The future of fortune(6) From: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: http://berklix.eu BSD Unix Linux Consultants, Munich Germany User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://berklix.eu/free/ X-From: http://www.berklix.eu/~jhs/ In-reply-to: Your message "Sat, 25 Nov 2017 10:28:14 -0600." <20171125162814.GA9954@lonesome.com> Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 14:48:12 +0100 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 14:29:17 -0000 Hi Hackers@ & Arch@ Mcl's long held animosity to me distracts. Better to consider ideas not by author, but on merit or otherwise, & maybe improve them. > Commit bits are a privilege. Contentious commits forced through > before discussion, should by policy be automaticaly reverted, > & committers bit suspended, pending committer peer review - Not with > reference to the desirability or otherwise of a commit, but for > imposing on FreeBSD without prior discussion. > > Commiter conduct reviews should be seperate from > discussion of desirability of a contentious commit. Cheers, Julian -- Julian H. Stacey, Computer Consultant, BSD Linux Unix Systems Engineer, Munich Reply below, Prefix '> '. Plain text, No .doc, base64, HTML, quoted-printable. http://berklix.eu/brexit/ UK stole 3,500,000 votes; 700,000 from Brits in EU. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Nov 26 16:15:00 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10755DEAAD8; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 16:15:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from smtp-out-so.shaw.ca (smtp-out-so.shaw.ca [64.59.136.137]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CAA766F142; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 16:14:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([96.50.22.10]) by shaw.ca with SMTP id IzLWeb2HTGvLHIzLXeDRFw; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 08:59:58 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=a9pAzQaF c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:117 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=sC3jslCIGhcA:10 a=Ikt0M2cxAAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=nRw0MP0jAAAA:8 a=jRt0O2FX6Cl4r4fkbLcA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=-FEs8UIgK8oA:10 a=NWVoK91CQyQA:10 a=iYm7J9qDpiSF5xNCBZUT:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 a=TqOS20DUQF7LHOIXzZmQ:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy [10.1.1.91]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 01451AA; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 07:59:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id vAQFxrDd049554; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 07:59:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from slippy (cy@localhost) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id vAQFxqQD049551; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 07:59:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Message-Id: <201711261559.vAQFxqQD049551@slippy.cwsent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: slippy.cwsent.com: cy owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.8.0 04/21/2012 with nmh-1.7 Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: "Julian H. Stacey" cc: "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: The future of fortune(6) In-Reply-To: Message from "Julian H. Stacey" of "Sun, 26 Nov 2017 14:48:12 +0100." <201711261350.vAQDmCqn000352@fire.js.berklix.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 07:59:52 -0800 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfJe+KsOqiBNHFuHPBX+x70Qcyy8RcPT/BoA7zUR6yzKTd+Uoow1RjI2eMMRMZsb8qISS7tYGRe2LZtmYDl+t2bmxqdxYCcSR5cNYIEX9SbKHhyeW6w3Y Gh87wes/c6PveVfFOemHtbJHJJ8Wo5fgJ1Vrbr+2HRo8BHCT5u2ZBu1/Mg0kdChNYrf6Kv2bFX9tpeNPwovftp/0ul2lDxci23QnLNRXHYX2Oabn3CNfkar5 jpouY4V+3dPMQShCyMZIAg== X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 16:15:00 -0000 In message <201711261350.vAQDmCqn000352@fire.js.berklix.net>, "Julian H. Stacey " writes: > Hi Hackers@ & Arch@ > Mcl's long held animosity to me distracts. Better to consider ideas > not by author, but on merit or otherwise, & maybe improve them. I think you might be reading too much into it. To bring this on topic. Fortune needs to go. The process to remove it has commenced and will after review be implemented. Why? Games should be, if anywhere, in ports. Take for example what Red Hat has done. There are no games in Red Hat 6. Sure you might find some in EPL. And as of RHEL 7, absolutely nothing. I suspect that they've made the choice to avoid problems like this. We should do likewise. I would fully support removal of games from ports as well but I might tolerate them there -- why if I install gnome or kde do I want to give up MB or GB of precious disk to games? This is 2017. I really don't understand why there is so much angst about this. Lastly. I'm not totally against games. My 4 and 5 year old grandkids play games on game tablets. However I would never let my grandkids even see what fortune spits out. Much of it was offensive. I would have been ashamed had they seen some of the outputs. Fortune in base is totally indefensible and for that matter even in ports it is. It absolutely has to go. I fully support Benno's effort. To repeat: To say that mcl has animosity toward you is really unfair. -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. > > > Commit bits are a privilege. Contentious commits forced through > > before discussion, should by policy be automaticaly reverted, > > & committers bit suspended, pending committer peer review - Not with > > reference to the desirability or otherwise of a commit, but for > > imposing on FreeBSD without prior discussion. > > > > Commiter conduct reviews should be seperate from > > discussion of desirability of a contentious commit. > > Cheers, > Julian > -- > Julian H. Stacey, Computer Consultant, BSD Linux Unix Systems Engineer, Munic > h > Reply below, Prefix '> '. Plain text, No .doc, base64, HTML, quoted-printabl > e. > http://berklix.eu/brexit/ UK stole 3,500,000 votes; 700,000 from Brits in EU > . > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Nov 26 17:44:59 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9ADEDEC92B; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 17:44:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from eugen@grosbein.net) Received: from hz.grosbein.net (hz.grosbein.net [78.47.246.247]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "hz.grosbein.net", Issuer "hz.grosbein.net" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8266A71B2E; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 17:44:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from eugen@grosbein.net) Received: from eg.sd.rdtc.ru (root@eg.sd.rdtc.ru [62.231.161.221] (may be forged)) by hz.grosbein.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id vAQHigB8056876 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sun, 26 Nov 2017 18:44:43 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from eugen@grosbein.net) X-Envelope-From: eugen@grosbein.net X-Envelope-To: Cy.Schubert@komquats.com Received: from [10.58.0.4] ([10.58.0.4]) by eg.sd.rdtc.ru (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id vAQHic33008522 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 27 Nov 2017 00:44:38 +0700 (+07) (envelope-from eugen@grosbein.net) Subject: Re: The future of fortune(6) To: Cy Schubert , "Julian H. Stacey" References: <201711261559.vAQFxqQD049551@slippy.cwsent.com> Cc: "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" From: Eugene Grosbein Message-ID: <5A1AFD83.8000503@grosbein.net> Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 00:44:35 +0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <201711261559.vAQFxqQD049551@slippy.cwsent.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00, LOCAL_FROM, RDNS_NONE autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.1 X-Spam-Report: * -2.3 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% * [score: 0.0000] * 1.9 RDNS_NONE Delivered to internal network by a host with no rDNS * 2.6 LOCAL_FROM From my domains X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.1 (2015-04-28) on hz.grosbein.net X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 17:45:00 -0000 26.11.2017 22:59, Cy Schubert wrote: > Fortune in base is totally indefensible and for that matter even in ports > it is. It absolutely has to go. I fully support Benno's effort. Please don't mix fortune(6) C code with contents of src/usr.bin/fortune/datfiles. The code src/usr.bin/fortune/{fortune|strfile} is valuable and independend of exact datfiles and there is no reason to remove it from the base as we have no alternatives for the task whey solve. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Nov 26 18:10:00 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5620DED0F5; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 18:10:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from smtp-out-no.shaw.ca (smtp-out-no.shaw.ca [64.59.134.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D72D72767; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 18:10:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@komquats.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([96.50.22.10]) by shaw.ca with SMTP id J1NKe1pxnzNiNJ1NMeIehd; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 11:09:58 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=I+4VfJog c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:117 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=sC3jslCIGhcA:10 a=H0GPC0OhAAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=aepW6LWHjBFo4IbMzaoA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=KczGKrPSgCPlefTG41c3:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy [10.1.1.91]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B0703161; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 10:09:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id vAQI9sfh088613; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 10:09:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from slippy (cy@localhost) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id vAQI9sAT088610; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 10:09:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Message-Id: <201711261809.vAQI9sAT088610@slippy.cwsent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: slippy.cwsent.com: cy owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.8.0 04/21/2012 with nmh-1.7 Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: Eugene Grosbein cc: Cy Schubert , "Julian H. Stacey" , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: The future of fortune(6) In-Reply-To: Message from Eugene Grosbein of "Mon, 27 Nov 2017 00:44:35 +0700." <5A1AFD83.8000503@grosbein.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 10:09:53 -0800 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfE8Wt+8YVvZ4TGiGNMrLxMQS+ibZySKLDnQ8UrdCba+dH/AmH/LiE9ioNPXyyEKEvXKtFAF47j160C3f1JyH5G30cbwpa6YAKBq0zmyGAEVrUTNRsjMk ZHh+jEIVbnQAn15KQnXShPlz+lz4o+iGzDplxRVc7DGtIeKv231ueMChNU0va9UfLhEDnUs7IiffltXbTO6XpYprmPipySyfdjyiLD2e/88LXbSFCIyzsDco cU5Nj86VCY7YBPh8+v/kvujKGMzx69u8ux2Xp9q99wo= X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 18:10:00 -0000 In message <5A1AFD83.8000503@grosbein.net>, Eugene Grosbein writes: > 26.11.2017 22:59, Cy Schubert wrote: > > > Fortune in base is totally indefensible and for that matter even in ports > > it is. It absolutely has to go. I fully support Benno's effort. > > Please don't mix fortune(6) C code with contents of src/usr.bin/fortune/datfi > les. > > The code src/usr.bin/fortune/{fortune|strfile} is valuable and independend of > exact datfiles > and there is no reason to remove it from the base as we have no alternatives > for the task whey solve. Putting my Canadian hat on instead of being my frustrated self today: I think the way forward is to replace fortune in base with a shell script to conditionally execute ${LOCALBASE}/bin/fortune and if not found advises the user to ask their sysadmin to install a fortune port/package. I have a revision in to do the removal and plan on creating a series of ports based on bsdgames. However I'm totally willing to let someone else take the lead on this. I think this is acceptable. -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Nov 26 18:32:25 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D247DEDDD7; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 18:32:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mike@karels.net) Received: from mail.KARELS.NET (ns.karels.net [216.160.39.53]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B23DB73760; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 18:32:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mike@karels.net) Received: from mail.karels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.KARELS.NET (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id vAQIWNaV006777; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 12:32:23 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from mike@karels.net) Message-Id: <201711261832.vAQIWNaV006777@mail.KARELS.NET> To: Benno Rice cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org From: Mike Karels Reply-to: mike@karels.net Subject: Re: The future of fortune(6) In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 22 Nov 2017 08:29:46 -0800. <66D39828-ADBA-4973-BEB8-B2F6657E9996@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <6775.1511721143.1@mail.karels.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 12:32:23 -0600 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 18:32:25 -0000 I apologize for a belated response to this thread, as well as for prolongi= ng it. However, I didn't want to respond until I had a chance to review the thread and the background. Having done that, I am unhappy with how we got to where we are, and I think discussion has not touched some important issues. First, for those who have not seen the original commit message in question= , here it is: > Remove all fortune datfiles except freebsd-tips. > Humour is a funny thing. What is funny to one person is not funny to all > people. What is insightful to one person is similarly not universal. The > fortune datfiles have been around a long time and have undoubtedly amuse= d > people but it's time to acknowledge their subjective, and in some cases > at least potentially offensive, nature and stop distributing them with t= he > imprimatur of the FreeBSD project. > If anyone wishes to distribute these via other mechanisms they are welco= me to > check them out of history and do so. > MFC after: 2 days This sounds very much like a pronouncement on behalf of the project, but a= s far as I know there was no discussion at all that would make this a formal decision. Furthermore, the change made the system internally inconsistent= , i.e. it broke things. We were then presented with this in the first email on this thread: > I would like people?s opinion on which of the following two paths we sho= uld take: > 1) Complete removal of fortune and freebsd-tips, remove its usage from t= he default .login/.profile files. > 2) Reworking fortune(6) to remove the offensive fortune flag and make fr= eebsd-tips the default, possibly by symlinking it as /usr/share/games/fort= une/fortunes. I see no reason that these should be the only two possible options. I see at least two other reasonable options: 3) Put it back the way that it was. 4) Move the "offensive" datfiles to a port, but leave fortune and at least freebsd-tips in the system. I note that some of the non -o limericks are reasonably considered offensive, but I am not aware of problems in, or complaints about, the main fortunes datfile. There has been no valid justification, either in the original commit, the initial email on this thread, or later in the thread, for removal. There has been general "let's move everything to packages" sentiment. Personall= y, I do not understand the goal of moving more of base (or all of it?) into packages. One criterion mentioned was whether it was required to build the sytem. That is a poor criterion, as embedded systems are mostly cross-compiled, and so nothing would be in base by that criterion. csh and vi are not required to build the system, but seem like things that should remain in base in any case. If someone wants to explain the motivation for moving much of the system into packages, please do so (but in a different thread; or point me to a thread that I have missed). fortune has been a part of BSD since long before FreeBSD. It is not a game, and is not installed in /usr/games. It seems to me to be a part of the BSD heritage, and removing it requires consensus rather than someon= e's whim. Chris H wrote: > HooWee! Here we go again... :) = No kidding. At least 30 years ago, when I was at CSRG, a female professor complained that she had received an offensive fortune when she logged out. After some investigation, we found that she was using her husband's accoun= t, and he had "fortune -o" in his .logout file. Case closed. Mike From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Nov 26 18:56:49 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99718DEE2EE; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 18:56:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from land.berklix.org (land.berklix.org [144.76.10.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "land.berklix.org", Issuer "land.berklix.org" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 395C374042; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 18:56:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from mart.js.berklix.net (pD9FA9D37.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [217.250.157.55]) (authenticated bits=0) by land.berklix.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id vAQIte04097343 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 26 Nov 2017 18:55:44 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by mart.js.berklix.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id vAQIufn7081854; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 19:56:41 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id vAQIuTDX006344; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 19:56:41 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Message-Id: <201711261856.vAQIuTDX006344@fire.js.berklix.net> To: "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: The future of fortune(6) From: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: http://berklix.eu BSD Unix Linux Consultants, Munich Germany User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://berklix.eu/free/ X-From: http://www.berklix.eu/~jhs/ In-reply-to: Your message "Sat, 25 Nov 2017 11:22:50 -0700." <1511634170.23588.4.camel@freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 19:56:29 +0100 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 18:56:49 -0000 Hi, Reference: > From: Ian Lepore > Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 11:22:50 -0700 Ian Lepore wrote: > On Sat, 2017-11-25 at 12:54 +0100, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > Adrian Chadd wrote: > > (top posting corrected here) > > > > > > > > On 24 November 2017 at 08:47, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > > > > > > > fortune(6) is listed in ring bound 4.3BSD System Index. > > > > Butchering on personal whim without prior agreement seems abuse. > > > > BSD should be [temporarily] reverted & the commit bit suspended, > > > > pending commiters' peer review of an un-authorised deletion. > > > > Then decide what what to do with fortune. > > > > > > hi, > > > Pardon me, but it's 2017 and the 4.3BSD system index isn't an immutable bible. > > > As a general push to packaging things in general, turning fortune into > > > a package seems like some low hanging fruit. > > > -adrian > > I avoided expressing opinion on where fortune might best be, to > > avoid distraction from the point: > > > > Commit bits are a privilege.  Contentious commits forced through > > before discussion, should by policy be automaticaly reverted, > > & committers bit suspended, pending committer peer review - Not with > > reference to the desirability or otherwise of a commit, but for > > imposing on FreeBSD without prior discussion. > > > > Commiter conduct reviews should be seperate from  > > discussion of desirability of a contentious commit. > > > > I'm not sure why you think you're qualified to comment on what policy > is, Learn to read. I wrote "Should" twice. I did not specify what policy IS. > but let me assure you You failed to comprehend, Doubt you can assure. > that virtually everything you've ever said on > the subject on the freebsd mailing lists is wrong. Subject ? Fortune ? Committer discipline ? Random Other ? >  People reading this > thread should not make the mistake of thinking that you are associated > with the project in any way ...................^^^^^^^^^^ Don't exagerate. I've been with FreeBSD since it existed, on lots of FreeBSD mail lists, contributed numerous patches. I have a tree of patches still to contribute, but this sort of noise rather discourages. More importantly, this sort of meta noise discourages lots of others you will never hear from, from contributing to lots of projects, (a generic phenomena observed by many, far wider than FreeBSD). Numerous friends dont contribute to PD src/ projects cos they know this sort of meta noise grief they don't need. > or speak authoratatively about the project > and its policies. I never claimed to be authoritative or hold any FreeBSD office. I suggested there "Should" be more (professional style) responsibity. Criticising me personaly for that just distracts attention from a minority of the less responsible who would need to be more responsible. Cheers, Julian -- Julian H. Stacey, Computer Consultant, BSD Linux Unix Systems Engineer, Munich Reply below, Prefix '> '. Plain text, No .doc, base64, HTML, quoted-printable. http://berklix.eu/brexit/ UK stole 3,500,000 votes; 700,000 from Brits in EU. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Nov 27 00:54:09 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61418DF4D6B; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 00:54:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dieterbsd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-it0-x241.google.com (mail-it0-x241.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 238527DA5A; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 00:54:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dieterbsd@gmail.com) Received: by mail-it0-x241.google.com with SMTP id t1so1781775ite.5; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 16:54:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Cmu3T0wIeIzOwuDxw7YGXXsTHOiSkmoFrUYfmW3ENvc=; b=jhyqhIbKbGRDqUNnjznM9YV+uGuRxGDAQW3wg70a/fpqz1K5dh3GU5A7qI5enmDdJ5 smTXB/WBk9/vyYbNYmPp2Fb+ORAjggd50vL7WXaRQF/bixP9LTDoy9FvvedQsNmO+rg7 TEqwUBCrMXlvS2MEWcXgAeUY+CvqOkaCV+AUSJuz57CQCta5XknPqN0zFRd7S3rgMPvZ Mwye0dNs485x1xk1sRRSPUwGJkaFUzvyzwbcyvDBDTQzO4WaFadWahfegEpUKCNz3Yz7 RXcFkFM9jMFG/L/jt1h95h2WdydEXPeZAN6CZTqR5CRBsMfJdBaLABrFJ2jUOskI7mkJ Vvhg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Cmu3T0wIeIzOwuDxw7YGXXsTHOiSkmoFrUYfmW3ENvc=; b=NvGc5BHl641NqX0H3PsV9pdUpmmcBbYoJu1TSkKK6OEGEfI4HE6LyEBOdFuJYfekRT TMuKjYLZrVa4cjiHFSBiHic35vaT1WsMX7vnxwYWODvEXF7551g31mxqmXjy7wj9G0iD nEZ9Rkn6AwNb42CWmM5ceTMsJeGNvvdy8gw/IOUK+IEi2+dgFRXT1TMChVriQ6/0NY6D ELYBQczGOIXeysnY0U1r8Qn++j7Tzk8ak1IoZ70hGLpxHS9LvFb3hSMhXE4lqDsd0HAv rMkmlrbu9K22aEi9ujvCOspZRqRgoodzRXyx4YhoHYNEdd6UIS6MOqphjQQxcTorwz5S XA5Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX40qBvAuLkMvlYisIlm4FtQ01GeNyt44fSv1VNnIA42x9bd/Teb R5AyIyyNwDjdLXdeJz2V6KbbsofaGMFQPiDI72U= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMYCkWA32SF59ju01k2veAa01YHKmzGMN2Q7/DzfMeBRbsNNlkNSLNVNPN1ibn5pbqX3wDLLwOZHodfPjRB7C4Q= X-Received: by 10.36.9.133 with SMTP id 127mr27990217itm.69.1511744048464; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 16:54:08 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.134.210 with HTTP; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 16:54:08 -0800 (PST) From: Dieter BSD Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 16:54:08 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: The future of fortune(6) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 00:54:09 -0000 So someone finds a quote of a democratically elected leader offensive. And now some are attacking fortune with torches and pitchforks. Let's throw out the baby with the bathwater. Shall we throw out anything that anyone finds offensive? I find a lot of things offensive. Here are a few: Censorship Low quality products and services Support for low quality products and services (inthell, microshit, ...) Ignoring PRs for years and years and years and years... Status reports that do not report progress (or lack thereof) reducing the number of open PRs. Replacing a working PR system with bugzilla Dropping nuclear bombs on innocent civilians Replacing a working package system with pile of garbage that does not work. Naming the new pile of garbage that does not work the same as the previous working system, which then "requires" adding another layer of crap that does not work. Cancer Assuming that everyone has a reliable 24x7 ueberfast Internet connection. Assuming that https is somehow better than http. It may add a microscopic amount of security, but also subtracts a far larger amount. It is much slower, and breaks many things. Often the page will not load at all. Honoring a request for https is good, but forcing it down everyone's throat is evil. Mainboard designers who think that 7 expansion slots should be enough for anyone. Many can't even count to 7. Mainboard designers who think that RS-232 is no longer needed. Mainboard designers who do not understand the necessity for ECC. Closed source software, including firmware. Building bike sheds with materials that require paint. Proper bike sheds are built from things like stone or brick. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Nov 27 01:42:27 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 312F9DF5ABA; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 01:42:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [192.108.105.60]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.soaustin.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 18AEF7ED48; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 01:42:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from lonesome.com (bones.soaustin.net [192.108.105.22]) by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 76534C22; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 19:42:25 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 19:42:24 -0600 From: Mark Linimon To: Dieter BSD Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of fortune(6) Message-ID: <20171127014224.GA14868@lonesome.com> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 01:42:27 -0000 On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at 04:54:08PM -0800, Dieter BSD wrote: > I find a lot of things offensive. Here are a few: > > Ignoring PRs for years and years and years and years... Please suggest a constructive solution. (This is a serious request.) mcl From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Nov 27 01:53:06 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FD91DF5D35; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 01:53:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493147F142; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 01:53:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id vAR1r0v5007519; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 17:53:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id vAR1qwoE007518; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 17:52:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <201711270152.vAR1qwoE007518@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: The future of fortune(6) In-Reply-To: <201711261809.vAQI9sAT088610@slippy.cwsent.com> To: Cy Schubert Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 17:52:58 -0800 (PST) CC: Eugene Grosbein , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , "Julian H. Stacey" , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 01:53:06 -0000 > In message <5A1AFD83.8000503@grosbein.net>, Eugene Grosbein writes: > > 26.11.2017 22:59, Cy Schubert wrote: > > > > > Fortune in base is totally indefensible and for that matter even in ports > > > it is. It absolutely has to go. I fully support Benno's effort. > > > > Please don't mix fortune(6) C code with contents of src/usr.bin/fortune/datfi > > les. > > > > The code src/usr.bin/fortune/{fortune|strfile} is valuable and independend of > > exact datfiles > > and there is no reason to remove it from the base as we have no alternatives > > for the task whey solve. > > Putting my Canadian hat on instead of being my frustrated self today: > > I think the way forward is to replace fortune in base with a shell script > to conditionally execute ${LOCALBASE}/bin/fortune and if not found advises YEA!!!!! Someone that actually knows it is suppose to be called LOCALBASE and not a hardcoded /usr/local!! I believe a few dozen of these have slipped in to base over the years. Now where is a virtual phk beer I can send to Cy? > the user to ask their sysadmin to install a fortune port/package. > > I have a revision in to do the removal and plan on creating a series of > ports based on bsdgames. However I'm totally willing to let someone else > take the lead on this. > > I think this is acceptable. > > > -- > Cheers, > Cy Schubert > FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Nov 27 03:09:58 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7594DF6F81 for ; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 03:09:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mcdouga9@egr.msu.edu) Received: from mail.egr.msu.edu (hill.egr.msu.edu [35.9.37.163]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A35F71190 for ; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 03:09:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mcdouga9@egr.msu.edu) Received: from hill (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.egr.msu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3847745DAD for ; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 22:09:57 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at egr.msu.edu Received: from mail.egr.msu.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by hill (hill.egr.msu.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8lLsRB97pBy1 for ; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 22:09:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from EGR authenticated sender mcdouga9 Subject: Re: The future of fortune(6) To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <20171127014224.GA14868@lonesome.com> From: Adam McDougall Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 22:09:56 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20171127014224.GA14868@lonesome.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 03:09:58 -0000 On 11/26/2017 20:42, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at 04:54:08PM -0800, Dieter BSD wrote: >> I find a lot of things offensive. Here are a few: >> >> Ignoring PRs for years and years and years and years... > > Please suggest a constructive solution. (This is a serious request.) > > mcl I felt compelled to say something about port maintainers not paying attention to open bug reports but that doesn't seem to be the case for me right now. What I did find was a few bug reports I could extract myself from, close, or request be closed. It might be helpful to have a yearly script notify non-freebsd parties involved in bug reports to review their involvement and see if issues have subsided or no longer matter. This could help reduce the total count with no substantial work and might highlight areas that still matter. Among those, bug reports 194935 and 219914 can be closed because they have been fixed but I did not open them. Thanks. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Nov 27 04:31:28 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B8D3DF882D; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 04:31:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from instructionset@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pl0-x22a.google.com (mail-pl0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3C9753AED; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 04:31:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from instructionset@gmail.com) Received: by mail-pl0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id z3so7751891plh.9; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 20:31:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=+3zEMD87r/UpyumjqGTMyMegE7M6bN5C0xi368yGMWs=; b=Qw08dvcQfgQT69YyBOuExunX6hH7gMguHhcS+KsEk6fYJEf8zyVwhaouXPUqeHgXRm 4awkxdhGA1mwWReSaaZCmxNtrbwVSQAoSCKRHVtIPVdFv1Zv4yAQyBqNRUYOF1vEzc1i +7li/WCZVuy4MJ3iDGgKCDlcoG21FoLb0bzy77NLvHwlCKvwBcW5QJ2FXx1ie8SIDoqf 3DEaAPaF4UxODM5PgizhQWEgueDyzsE23RnjdzNW1tOY5IOBG7bvqrFUw6LPEZeJU0dg S+GuTj4GYdd95HKIIewa76DxfhliBsogTKtNW5JwBG6FPq6e1HG/AzReT04K5sjo/d40 dRXw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+3zEMD87r/UpyumjqGTMyMegE7M6bN5C0xi368yGMWs=; b=LZjYmHiExSw9y15H1u1u7ioAdzAfT6gb4HHrssVyG6dcXZvApSOyJYhxNEXyyellOo 2DxCMgKt9pBmZY5VQOpxOKRbC5fdpYcfvcEItw96c9ixfV6g37SuGvkzOF0MPGsjKrZf hToAWj3B9WwZHvW2GmJItrPoN8pz3aLFACQhLJh5O94DxByK2yaFeorBbvGPXkXP/Ggm PRR0fot9YWLvX+/GHbseGJ1dSEYJH6vei7XJpITGoEugXfuBXMaTPllSQHMVS5jUlqDk uw/hgRXBH0vwUowxJ17GvMF3o0ZHk0ljuOaPvjHjAcaH/cEe/kauWift00ZRNEnYmptK 0OyQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX4j5vZqWUWGcTTemcdKNAc5S9vr9FjlyhttKVl/6xuaO4L9+kda BQeqZVZdslrJmRkgphlf+MgjXrZdQFT78NFKLnU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMYpp9H8FBXLMAzA7O8rzZ2lP2O00OS1omNI9YStSkqjSkgvXYIZNU29YdSADpy74wNgV77/EfrrcMaNUL20KfY= X-Received: by 10.159.235.147 with SMTP id f19mr37200998plr.42.1511757087432; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 20:31:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.132.193 with HTTP; Sun, 26 Nov 2017 20:31:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <201711261832.vAQIWNaV006777@mail.KARELS.NET> References: <66D39828-ADBA-4973-BEB8-B2F6657E9996@FreeBSD.org> <201711261832.vAQIWNaV006777@mail.KARELS.NET> From: Bill Sorenson Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 22:31:26 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: The future of fortune(6) To: mike@karels.net Cc: Benno Rice , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 04:31:28 -0000 > No kidding. At least 30 years ago, when I was at CSRG, a female professor > complained that she had received an offensive fortune when she logged out. > After some investigation, we found that she was using her husband's account, > and he had "fortune -o" in his .logout file. Case closed. > > Mike > I want to 2nd Mike Karels' sentiments. There is a *big* - huge - massive difference between words people don't like and someone being offensive. I don't want to give the impression that I see value in having Hitler quotes in base, I don't, its out. Great by me. At the same time I don't see the value of scrubbing base of arrangements of words people don't like. If I see that fortune spits out a Rush Limbaugh quote, a Hitler quote, an Franklin D Roosevelt quote or an Al Franken quote or a bad joke I for one don't instantly come to the assumption that this is somehow an endorsement by the project or even a commiter of any particular thing. Its just stuff in history. In a way thats really what fortune is, a collection of history (even if just FreeBSD tips). Frankly, I'm a bit offended (if mildly) by the stance that "we've decided to excise fortune from base because its a tool used to spread hate and bad ideas." This is dangerously approaching the point of censoring the project because of how people might decide to use the software. Even Richard Stallman doesn't go for this sort of thing. Maybe we should start to discuss ripping OpenSSH out of base because it could be used in the commission of a felony or to hurt somebody's feelings. I don't want to remove vi from base just because I feel stupid after using it. There is a cost to having a free and open society, one of those is that someone may use fortune to print detestable quotes about Hitler on their terminal. I for one would recommend leaving things alone unless it is a substantive improvement. -Bill S. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Nov 27 14:26:29 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DAC7E525D9; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 14:26:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Received: from vps1.elischer.org (vps1.elischer.org [204.109.63.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "vps1.elischer.org", Issuer "CA Cert Signing Authority" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 34C3D72FF9; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 14:26:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Received: from Julian-MBP3.local (115-166-31-52.dyn.iinet.net.au [115.166.31.52]) (authenticated bits=0) by vps1.elischer.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id vAREQEDO056615 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 27 Nov 2017 06:26:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Subject: Re: The future of fortune(6) To: Bill Sorenson , mike@karels.net Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Benno Rice , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <66D39828-ADBA-4973-BEB8-B2F6657E9996@FreeBSD.org> <201711261832.vAQIWNaV006777@mail.KARELS.NET> From: Julian Elischer Message-ID: <0b9a0042-8ab8-004d-437b-a836f5b05907@freebsd.org> Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 22:26:08 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 14:26:29 -0000 On 27/11/17 12:31 pm, Bill Sorenson wrote: >> No kidding. At least 30 years ago, when I was at CSRG, a female professor >> complained that she had received an offensive fortune when she logged out. >> After some investigation, we found that she was using her husband's account, >> and he had "fortune -o" in his .logout file. Case closed. >> >> Mike >> > I want to 2nd Mike Karels' sentiments. There is a *big* - huge - > massive difference between words people don't like and someone being > offensive. > > I don't want to give the impression that I see value in having Hitler > quotes in base, I don't, its out. Great by me. At the same time I > don't see the value of scrubbing base of arrangements of words people > don't like. If I see that fortune spits out a Rush Limbaugh quote, a > Hitler quote, an Franklin D Roosevelt quote or an Al Franken quote or > a bad joke I for one don't instantly come to the assumption that this > is somehow an endorsement by the project or even a commiter of any > particular thing. Its just stuff in history. In a way thats really > what fortune is, a collection of history (even if just FreeBSD tips). > > Frankly, I'm a bit offended (if mildly) by the stance that "we've > decided to excise fortune from base because its a tool used to spread > hate and bad ideas." This is dangerously approaching the point of > censoring the project because of how people might decide to use the > software. Even Richard Stallman doesn't go for this sort of thing. > Maybe we should start to discuss ripping OpenSSH out of base because > it could be used in the commission of a felony or to hurt somebody's > feelings. I don't want to remove vi from base just because I feel > stupid after using it. There is a cost to having a free and open > society, one of those is that someone may use fortune to print > detestable quotes about Hitler on their terminal. The fact that something was said by Adolf Hitler doesn't make it automatically unsuitable for the fortune files. I'd say that if you think it does, that gives a lot more new information about you than it does about Adolf Hitler, who we already know about. Most of the deleted quotes (to do with Women) are so offensive by modern standards that I view them as almost satirical, and somewhat educational. One or two of them are positively scary in how well they fit to current politics and I view them as cautionary.. (and certainly should have stayed). For those who didn't read them  you can find them in the commit history now. The unilateral declaration to be the "arbiter of FreeBSD morals" does grate with me more than the demise of the data files however. It's the old "Who elected you king?" line from Monty Python. Think of the bikesheds that Stalin avoided when he just killed all his opponents. I imagine that somewhere in those files was "Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…’ Winston S Churchill, 11 November 1947" While we are not a democracy, Our desire to remain open leads unavoidably to some of the same messiness, and we should accept that as the price of our freedom to feel part of the project. The claim to avoid a bikeshed (hmm how did that play out for you?) is not an excuse to work without consultation. > > I for one would recommend leaving things alone unless it is a > substantive improvement. > > -Bill S. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Nov 27 15:21:20 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CF3CE54786; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 15:21:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jonathan@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [96.47.72.132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "freefall.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0CE5576782; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 15:21:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jonathan@FreeBSD.org) Received: from [134.153.27.124] (unknown [127.0.1.132]) by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFBB35A85; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 15:21:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jonathan@FreeBSD.org) From: "Jonathan Anderson" To: "Bill Sorenson" Cc: mike@karels.net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, "Benno Rice" , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of fortune(6) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 11:50:46 -0330 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <66D39828-ADBA-4973-BEB8-B2F6657E9996@FreeBSD.org> <201711261832.vAQIWNaV006777@mail.KARELS.NET> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.7r5425) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 15:21:20 -0000 On 27 Nov 2017, at 1:01, Bill Sorenson wrote: > I for one would recommend leaving things alone unless it is a > substantive improvement. That's a sound principle, but if we move the datfiles (other than `freebsd-tips`) into ports, we could take all of the future time we would otherwise spend debating fortune(6) and use it for... anything else. :) I would call that a substantive improvement. Jon -- Jonathan Anderson jonathan@FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Nov 27 16:20:34 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DB72DB8710 for ; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 16:20:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D95DD7985A for ; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 16:20:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id vARGKUGj010401; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 08:20:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id vARGKTxE010400; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 08:20:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <201711271620.vARGKTxE010400@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Improving bugzilla was: Re: The future of fortune(6) In-Reply-To: To: Adam McDougall Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 08:20:29 -0800 (PST) CC: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 16:20:34 -0000 > On 11/26/2017 20:42, Mark Linimon wrote: > > On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at 04:54:08PM -0800, Dieter BSD wrote: > >> I find a lot of things offensive. Here are a few: > >> > >> Ignoring PRs for years and years and years and years... > > > > Please suggest a constructive solution. (This is a serious request.) > > > > mcl > > I felt compelled to say something about port maintainers not paying > attention to open bug reports but that doesn't seem to be the case for > me right now. What I did find was a few bug reports I could extract > myself from, close, or request be closed. It might be helpful to have a > yearly script notify non-freebsd parties involved in bug reports to > review their involvement and see if issues have subsided or no longer > matter. This could help reduce the total count with no substantial work > and might highlight areas that still matter. > > Among those, bug reports 194935 and 219914 can be closed because they > have been fixed but I did not open them. Another thing that has been going on is when someone "takes" a bug by assigning it to themself is that the default is to replace the freebsd-FOO@freebsd.org mailling list with that person, this makes the montly reports sent to the mailling list that many (ok maybe only a few) use to keep them reminded that these things DO need to be looked at. Some place there is a short blurb about this in some handbook that says you should not remove this, and somehow I think it would be in our own best interested to either modify the way that "take owner ship" works, or the way that the bugs are triaged onto the appropriate lists so that this does not get removed when a commiter takes owner ship. I have not seen any of that montly reminders in.. well months.. and though some may see that as just noise, I see those mails as little pokes in the side reminding everyone that we got buys and maybe we should go fix them. Now this next statement is Blue a very nice deep Royal Blue, sizeof(bugzilla) :== rateofchange(sourcecode). Simply stop breaking things! Some things take months, years, even decades before the suttle breakage is discoverd by some user. I am not saying to stop inovation, I am saying be sure that your actually moving the state of the art forward, and try to do so with very well tested and complete changes. Thank you for your time, and efforts, all those that deal with PR's! -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Nov 27 16:37:32 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74B26DB8E26; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 16:37:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsd-lists@BSDforge.com) Received: from udns.ultimatedns.net (static-24-113-41-81.wavecable.com [24.113.41.81]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4EA747A371; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 16:37:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsd-lists@BSDforge.com) Received: from udns.ultimatedns.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by udns.ultimatedns.net (8.14.9/8.14.9) with ESMTP id vARGbqUp099611; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 08:37:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bsd-lists@BSDforge.com) X-Mailer: Cypht MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: , "Benno Rice" , , , "Bill Sorenson" In-Reply-To: From: "Chris H" Reply-To: bsd-lists@BSDforge.com To: "Jonathan Anderson" Subject: Re: The future of fortune(6) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 08:37:58 -0800 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 16:37:32 -0000 On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 11:50:46 -0330 "Jonathan Anderson" said > On 27 Nov 2017, at 1:01, Bill Sorenson wrote: >=20 > > I for one would recommend leaving things alone unless it is a > > substantive improvement=2E >=20 > That's a sound principle, but if we move the datfiles (other than=20 > `freebsd-tips`) into ports, we could take all of the future time we=20 > would otherwise spend debating fortune(6) and use it for=2E=2E=2E anything=20 > else=2E :) I would call that a substantive improvement=2E Following your assertion; if I were to pass a women being violated, knowing my intervention would end it=2E Should I simply pass it by, knowing the time I save would allow me the time to get that cup of coffee I really wanted? If you don't take the necessary time to fight for things you believe in; no matter how insignificant they may seem to others=2E What's the point? --Chris >=20 >=20 > Jon > -- > Jonathan Anderson > jonathan@FreeBSD=2Eorg From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Nov 27 18:23:04 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 203E6DBBE1F; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 18:23:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsd-lists@BSDforge.com) Received: from udns.ultimatedns.net (static-24-113-41-81.wavecable.com [24.113.41.81]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E6E2A7F083; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 18:23:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsd-lists@BSDforge.com) Received: from udns.ultimatedns.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by udns.ultimatedns.net (8.14.9/8.14.9) with ESMTP id vARINNkn024544; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 10:23:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bsd-lists@BSDforge.com) X-Mailer: Cypht MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: , "Bill Sorenson" , , "Benno Rice" , , "Jonathan Anderson" In-Reply-To: From: "Chris H" Reply-To: bsd-lists@BSDforge.com To: Subject: Re: The future of fortune(6) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 10:23:29 -0800 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 18:23:04 -0000 On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 08:37:58 -0800 said > On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 11:50:46 -0330 "Jonathan Anderson" > said >=20 > > On 27 Nov 2017, at 1:01, Bill Sorenson wrote: > >=20 > > > I for one would recommend leaving things alone unless it is a > > > substantive improvement=2E > >=20 > > That's a sound principle, but if we move the datfiles (other than=20 > > `freebsd-tips`) into ports, we could take all of the future time we=20 > > would otherwise spend debating fortune(6) and use it for=2E=2E=2E anything=20 > > else=2E :) I would call that a substantive improvement=2E > Following your assertion; if I were to pass a women being violated, > knowing my intervention would end it=2E > Should I simply pass it by, knowing the time I save would allow me > the time to get that cup of coffee I really wanted? OK=2E This is a poor choice of examples to have used in an attempt to make my point=2E I *really* should have taken more time to consider the possibilities, *and* the *potential consequences* of that choice=2E I'd like to offer my sincere apologies to anyone I may have offended in reference to this example=2E :( I'm big on freedom of speech=2E But, I don't tolerate "thoughtless" speech, and nor, I think, should anyone else=2E --Chris >=20 > If you don't take the necessary time to fight for things you > believe in; no matter how insignificant they may seem to others=2E > What's the point? >=20 > --Chris > >=20 > >=20 > > Jon > > -- > > Jonathan Anderson > > jonathan@FreeBSD=2Eorg >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd=2Eorg mailing list > https://lists=2Efreebsd=2Eorg/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd=2Eorg= " From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Nov 27 20:15:07 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93605DE6AFE for ; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 20:15:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from AWilcox@Wilcox-Tech.com) Received: from mail.wilcox-tech.com (mail.wilcox-tech.com [45.32.83.9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.wilcox-tech.com", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C9D934CA for ; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 20:15:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from AWilcox@Wilcox-Tech.com) Received: (qmail 24787 invoked from network); 27 Nov 2017 20:14:58 -0000 Received: from 107-131-85-28.lightspeed.tulsok.sbcglobal.net (HELO ?192.168.1.78?) (awilcox@wilcox-tech.com@107.131.85.28) by mail.wilcox-tech.com with ESMTPA; 27 Nov 2017 20:14:58 -0000 Subject: Re: The future of fortune(6) To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: From: "A. Wilcox" Message-ID: <5A1C723C.2040104@Wilcox-Tech.com> Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 14:14:52 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="q7bCVF6iRqmEbxVv9f30Dcvi7MNL6tjf8" X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 20:15:07 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --q7bCVF6iRqmEbxVv9f30Dcvi7MNL6tjf8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 27/11/17 10:37, Chris H wrote: > On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 11:50:46 -0330 "Jonathan Anderson" > said >> On 27 Nov 2017, at 1:01, Bill Sorenson wrote: >> > I for one would recommend leaving things alone unless it is a >> > substantive improvement. >> That's a sound principle, but if we move the datfiles (other than >> `freebsd-tips`) into ports, we could take all of the future time we >> would otherwise spend debating fortune(6) and use it for... anything >> else. :) I would call that a substantive improvement. > Following your assertion; if I were to pass a women being violated, > knowing my intervention would end it. > Should I simply pass it by, knowing the time I save would allow me > the time to get that cup of coffee I really wanted? the "moralisation" of discussions is dehumanising, and comparing moving bytes in a computer around with intervening in the assault of a woman is demeaning to women *and* insulting to those of us who have been assaulted= =2E --arw --=20 A. Wilcox (awilfox) Open-source programmer (C, C++, Python) https://code.foxkit.us/u/awilfox/ --q7bCVF6iRqmEbxVv9f30Dcvi7MNL6tjf8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJaHHI9AAoJEMspy1GSK50UHGsP/i6HuPGg9Qq44K7lMbdzekOc yw0fOUI7y00bX+S+ZuK3g12Ej8S8+hcvwQCIxWsriAPexWnPwN/lyaLEADYWJxXh dflwUH0sYrusFLxURKeLcUFejClDnaoaV5c7s0PfyNEey8hhlWiW4bkeQySAyBp7 /66g/REpqF6nO3p5NhuoddyLsDThWZMvxIg1zMdaBwhTCF1aKV2vUq8ASuZNzrYY 8fjrsVFs00bYifBEIpKUu9y1AR8O+mBZTufLE6rvkn8U+ZXsQnYprepfFWohqhla KllILvU+h6xT3PTAjtjxN524cDPhot3uV+xOsz1lJ+6h+TzwIfU/hMCg6VXPVSzV RjP8W0ZujZgnTxxWDFo1SdBKTnx3WqulsB/ui+SShIzAvNsgZ9Q7lSPo5OjbfH28 jAKEgsfZ27VSmxg3T+5t9zraMMQjNUi+FrsbRoDkErOLu1D+GO6t+sNKqt7kZrCm PxtivYl5FsfLrZx5+VwCg2gxSBvdg1zAbrCWGNI1iXpgbqfCq4sSC73j4eABRKpC iZ1iiVr2xlYPWe6vFlxHTLHNW8FPcabxXVy28nHhjbBVAGy+YCxTTyg9UbKYd6Tp hzl5Ba6leRhWEEDiuWQ+7V5vLcw2c14XRxD3Zf15p9GV4hmSFrDbM75MoMXBJUpK ySq2oXsRKHZEmvcZeTMS =7mUr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --q7bCVF6iRqmEbxVv9f30Dcvi7MNL6tjf8-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Nov 27 20:16:51 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 289D3DE6B8A for ; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 20:16:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from AWilcox@Wilcox-Tech.com) Received: from mail.wilcox-tech.com (mail.wilcox-tech.com [45.32.83.9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.wilcox-tech.com", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1248835A7 for ; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 20:16:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from AWilcox@Wilcox-Tech.com) Received: (qmail 24948 invoked from network); 27 Nov 2017 20:16:48 -0000 Received: from 107-131-85-28.lightspeed.tulsok.sbcglobal.net (HELO ?192.168.1.78?) (awilcox@wilcox-tech.com@107.131.85.28) by mail.wilcox-tech.com with ESMTPA; 27 Nov 2017 20:16:48 -0000 Subject: Re: Improving bugzilla To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <201711271620.vARGKTxE010400@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> From: "A. Wilcox" Message-ID: <5A1C72AF.20106@Wilcox-Tech.com> Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 14:16:47 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <201711271620.vARGKTxE010400@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="2On36T6nap023TBaG8BD1HpbcQVRHtbvR" X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 20:16:51 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --2On36T6nap023TBaG8BD1HpbcQVRHtbvR Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 27/11/17 10:20, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > Another thing that has been going on is when someone "takes" a bug > by assigning it to themself is that the default is to replace the > freebsd-FOO@freebsd.org mailling list with that person, this makes > the montly reports sent to the mailling list that many (ok maybe > only a few) use to keep them reminded that these things DO need > to be looked at. If the system auto-CC's the ML in addition to auto-assigning the ML, then 'taking ownership' will remove the assignment but not the CC. I'm not sure if that's how the monthly reports actually work, but if they do count CCs, then this should be fairly easy to do. Unfortunately it's been some time since I set up that kind of thing in bz. I can always try and find some docs or relevant source lines if assistance is needed. Best, --arw --=20 A. Wilcox (awilfox) Open-source programmer (C, C++, Python) https://code.foxkit.us/u/awilfox/ --2On36T6nap023TBaG8BD1HpbcQVRHtbvR Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJaHHKvAAoJEMspy1GSK50UbA4P/2SHH9Ip5veBmQfanmNVwlii b85g2ol+PVpBxDVdJwCPOnuXGVek+CdqX5N3rz/yXlnQaYqJRT0zGYQfwhH654wz 0rETyGaMt4/8J/8RP03SwitMYmNHaho3Q7+WZo0akgoINcjpUP4tc+QM931Z7FDY XAdrVD+aidZ8KhMFDbRR2sfa0FmDYPhwA3W4GPSTEA81fqNj9ZOTc7qOIhgTIYNN NTvucjTWxqg3RMHfEa/iwOGwuy2dJ++rCOIi5FF94cWgmv4RpTaAqFGpalMPOry3 JEseVHOo7hs4rPuLadWfNwMHylFUnksiIuOlwwaQev/VohaeEhycQDcGPIN1akb1 XogXroU+Ch+jPqZGL2feB6u/yZwwf/pClYZBbadlPjopMdypSzRPhtyLAj5B1SVq 5Q2qD0aVI2VH7XX6a6Vd5liHkkoQmHbaHcVwXEoZn0QRxgQmjl6F/0gkWrCgRSSv YD/C2wNpSZCCCiWnOJmy7jBq5Ak8yHp8jPcYCP40MFhT2LIjpnL2WmZcoczYyAMG ItMOF+8AwvqqCEVAGQKSTJcjlvRzmu9bwoEFhYMaWCoEQAsMg1o4vLTDR7GaGf0M V/GlUqfS6SVqyvFtB9vno97PtV+xuCN/meKSvAYM92n0BC479vSj6dv3EkQoXRSE zkqZKl+q9cE6DkUdK9p/ =aAf6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --2On36T6nap023TBaG8BD1HpbcQVRHtbvR-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Nov 27 21:54:29 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B8E7DEAAFC; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 21:54:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [192.108.105.60]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.soaustin.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F4D2666B3; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 21:54:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from lonesome.com (bones.soaustin.net [192.108.105.22]) by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BB4C7123C; Mon, 27 Nov 2017 15:54:27 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 15:54:26 -0600 From: Mark Linimon To: Jonathan Anderson Cc: Bill Sorenson , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Benno Rice , mike@karels.net, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of fortune(6) Message-ID: <20171127215426.GA18127@lonesome.com> References: <66D39828-ADBA-4973-BEB8-B2F6657E9996@FreeBSD.org> <201711261832.vAQIWNaV006777@mail.KARELS.NET> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 21:54:29 -0000 On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 11:50:46AM -0330, Jonathan Anderson wrote: > if we move the datfiles (other than `freebsd-tips`) into ports Already happened. mcl From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Nov 30 17:34:31 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12E56E665DB for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 17:34:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lm@mcvoy.com) Received: from mcvoy.com (mcvoy.com [192.169.23.250]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 07BD36D104 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 17:34:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lm@mcvoy.com) Received: by mcvoy.com (Postfix, from userid 3546) id AFD8835E0BB; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 09:34:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 09:34:24 -0800 From: Larry McVoy To: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , scottl@netflix.com, kbowling@llnw.com, gallatin@netflix.com Subject: small patch for pageout. Comments? Message-ID: <20171130173424.GA811@mcvoy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 17:34:31 -0000 In a recent numa meeting that Scott called, Jeff suggested a small patch to the pageout daemon (included below). It's rather dramatic the difference it makes for me. If I arrange to thrash the crap out of memory, without this patch the kernel is so borked with all the processes in disk wait that I can't kill them, I can't reboot, my only option is to power off. With the patch there is still some borkage, the kernel is randomly killing processes because of out of mem, it should kill one of my processes that is causing the problem but it doesn't, it killed random stuff like dhclient, getty (logged me out), etc. But the system is responsive. What the patch does is say "if we have more than one core, don't sleep in pageout, just keep running until we freed enough mem". Comments? --lm diff --git a/sys/vm/vm_pageout.c b/sys/vm/vm_pageout.c index 4ecae5ad5fd..f59a09e96e2 100644 --- a/sys/vm/vm_pageout.c +++ b/sys/vm/vm_pageout.c @@ -1815,10 +1815,18 @@ vm_pageout_worker(void *arg) * (page reclamation) scan, then increase the level * and scan again now. Otherwise, sleep a bit and * try again later. + * LM: per discussions with the numa team, don't + * sleep if we have at least 2 cpus, just keep + * scanning. This makes a HUGE difference when + * the system is thrashing on memory, it's the + * difference between usable and borked. */ mtx_unlock(&vm_page_queue_free_mtx); - if (pass >= 1) - pause("psleep", hz / VM_INACT_SCAN_RATE); + if (pass >= 1) { + if (mp_ncpus < 2) { + pause("psleep", hz /VM_INACT_SCAN_RATE); + } + } pass++; } else { /* From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Nov 30 17:42:41 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D1F5E66940 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 17:42:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lm@mcvoy.com) Received: from mcvoy.com (mcvoy.com [192.169.23.250]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 770996D82F for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 17:42:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lm@mcvoy.com) Received: by mcvoy.com (Postfix, from userid 3546) id AF50335E135; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 09:42:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 09:42:40 -0800 From: Larry McVoy To: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , scottl@netflix.com, kbowling@llnw.com, gallatin@netflix.com Subject: Re: small patch for pageout. Comments? Message-ID: <20171130174240.GB811@mcvoy.com> References: <20171130173424.GA811@mcvoy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20171130173424.GA811@mcvoy.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 17:42:41 -0000 https://reviews.freebsd.org/D13308 On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 09:34:24AM -0800, Larry McVoy wrote: > In a recent numa meeting that Scott called, Jeff suggested a small > patch to the pageout daemon (included below). > > It's rather dramatic the difference it makes for me. If I arrange to > thrash the crap out of memory, without this patch the kernel is so > borked with all the processes in disk wait that I can't kill them, > I can't reboot, my only option is to power off. > > With the patch there is still some borkage, the kernel is randomly > killing processes because of out of mem, it should kill one of my > processes that is causing the problem but it doesn't, it killed > random stuff like dhclient, getty (logged me out), etc. > > But the system is responsive. > > What the patch does is say "if we have more than one core, don't sleep > in pageout, just keep running until we freed enough mem". > > Comments? > > --lm > > diff --git a/sys/vm/vm_pageout.c b/sys/vm/vm_pageout.c > index 4ecae5ad5fd..f59a09e96e2 100644 > --- a/sys/vm/vm_pageout.c > +++ b/sys/vm/vm_pageout.c > @@ -1815,10 +1815,18 @@ vm_pageout_worker(void *arg) > * (page reclamation) scan, then increase the level > * and scan again now. Otherwise, sleep a bit and > * try again later. > + * LM: per discussions with the numa team, don't > + * sleep if we have at least 2 cpus, just keep > + * scanning. This makes a HUGE difference when > + * the system is thrashing on memory, it's the > + * difference between usable and borked. > */ > mtx_unlock(&vm_page_queue_free_mtx); > - if (pass >= 1) > - pause("psleep", hz / VM_INACT_SCAN_RATE); > + if (pass >= 1) { > + if (mp_ncpus < 2) { > + pause("psleep", hz /VM_INACT_SCAN_RATE); > + } > + } > pass++; > } else { > /* -- --- Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Nov 30 18:37:37 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E163E685D8 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 18:37:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-it0-x234.google.com (mail-it0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4B5BE6FA4A for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 18:37:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-it0-x234.google.com with SMTP id b5so9478263itc.3 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 10:37:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=1nvLGoT174xftLsApbXJjVlzTBA7FKzLmGcOtUJ7q8A=; b=vfSJf4cu7SSdVrMrwgleFWH54/ABDRxXJVZhnWNRodcdgk8I2xz89vsdWYzAhSSnNd r+jtEi5D0lPZQgnSuTY/49V/BUo3lENDDzAzvdUK5qUonGfnbIpNoMS1AoOREkMcmM7M U73wqrGxWVDfMyxGPLhKTXzQBUxKFvc1xhsMyF6yWGWG6v3VIvQZVxB36DPNZqNQPXj/ R8wiwtcVvxZLnRR3QbyVH3eauVSqYN66yCuxmrNrn+QvSmR8AeRuYcrAWpsw4zE//Uyd h0eWV35m6LcdwqfHtzRFvt6KkI2WJNy5Z2fvDbsmWhzi0q/ZjIuGCGZYAg6elFXfKEJA Ygeg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=1nvLGoT174xftLsApbXJjVlzTBA7FKzLmGcOtUJ7q8A=; b=d5z5NrTJOv/jjwi586k/B0nHB5ceuZ1PjrtBmO1oWylZQuYzouds1U0430OlSKC1Lm c8+uwzExbykRXT23QKe+D4bEZwR01RGQPaVlijzWR7btIwdstfQlJmJh915zQMHV+GDm UBsto1Vs0nNZS0wFUcrIIJrCxmognUgvDKp4Kt+eQUiABpa/+MZcUXUx/GFRtRCzKeHV VUJmyUYztAbSZsNrFBxyR6JBI3TqiTPjuBLY9JcaLEFIYvk+IhXIpZawNM4NTsbIe7ph FkAFB0ct0F7n69piG7v79BCqiWXKzqoCHiBYOaS3EZqiC/Tz3VjVfqfua9t9LvcUNHjD YVPg== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX6B4krCSHWeNJOOaS1HazDhAOaBYqNcVbvPvycWCLizkM5eKuvZ cUG/6+wNDdd78wudYFQ6uhv4LosonVgKkLmeNfYq0Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMY8+YyyeyxLG+xun+94JTelh8lrlsCflIQbd6I2ON2VPLd36GmidCxXpEc/u7sUSjaKHrqp43G77hZfYnKSyBg= X-Received: by 10.36.164.13 with SMTP id z13mr3805573ite.115.1512067056174; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 10:37:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: wlosh@bsdimp.com Received: by 10.79.108.204 with HTTP; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 10:37:35 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [2603:300b:6:5100:1052:acc7:f9de:2b6d] In-Reply-To: <20171130173424.GA811@mcvoy.com> References: <20171130173424.GA811@mcvoy.com> From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 11:37:35 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: wNc2l5AtKQooTpvvWkMH-S_vUcw Message-ID: Subject: Re: small patch for pageout. Comments? To: Larry McVoy Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , Scott Long , Kevin Bowling , Drew Gallatin Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 18:37:37 -0000 On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 10:34 AM, Larry McVoy wrote: > In a recent numa meeting that Scott called, Jeff suggested a small > patch to the pageout daemon (included below). > > It's rather dramatic the difference it makes for me. If I arrange to > thrash the crap out of memory, without this patch the kernel is so > borked with all the processes in disk wait that I can't kill them, > I can't reboot, my only option is to power off. > > With the patch there is still some borkage, the kernel is randomly > killing processes because of out of mem, it should kill one of my > processes that is causing the problem but it doesn't, it killed > random stuff like dhclient, getty (logged me out), etc. > > But the system is responsive. > > What the patch does is say "if we have more than one core, don't sleep > in pageout, just keep running until we freed enough mem". > > Comments? > Just to confirm why this patch works. For UP systems, we have to pause here to allow work to complete, otherwise we can't switch to their threads to complete the I/Os. For MP, however, we can continue to schedule more work because that work can be completed on other CPUs. This parallelism greatly increases the pageout rate, allowing the system to keep up better when some ass-hat process (or processes) is thrashing memory. I'm pretty sure the UP case was also designed to not flood the lower layers with work, starving other consumers. Does this result in undo flooding, and would we get better results if we could schedule up to the right amount of work rather flooding in the MP case? Warner --lm > > diff --git a/sys/vm/vm_pageout.c b/sys/vm/vm_pageout.c > index 4ecae5ad5fd..f59a09e96e2 100644 > --- a/sys/vm/vm_pageout.c > +++ b/sys/vm/vm_pageout.c > @@ -1815,10 +1815,18 @@ vm_pageout_worker(void *arg) > * (page reclamation) scan, then increase the level > * and scan again now. Otherwise, sleep a bit and > * try again later. > + * LM: per discussions with the numa team, don't > + * sleep if we have at least 2 cpus, just keep > + * scanning. This makes a HUGE difference when > + * the system is thrashing on memory, it's the > + * difference between usable and borked. > */ > mtx_unlock(&vm_page_queue_free_mtx); > - if (pass >= 1) > - pause("psleep", hz / VM_INACT_SCAN_RATE); > + if (pass >= 1) { > + if (mp_ncpus < 2) { > + pause("psleep", hz > /VM_INACT_SCAN_RATE); > + } > + } > pass++; > } else { > /* > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Nov 30 18:49:23 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2DCFE68A1B for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 18:49:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lm@mcvoy.com) Received: from mcvoy.com (mcvoy.com [192.169.23.250]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C3FE37010E for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 18:49:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lm@mcvoy.com) Received: by mcvoy.com (Postfix, from userid 3546) id 1ABEB35E0BB; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 10:49:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 10:49:23 -0800 From: Larry McVoy To: Warner Losh Cc: Larry McVoy , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , Scott Long , Kevin Bowling , Drew Gallatin Subject: Re: small patch for pageout. Comments? Message-ID: <20171130184923.GA30262@mcvoy.com> References: <20171130173424.GA811@mcvoy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 18:49:23 -0000 On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 11:37:35AM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 10:34 AM, Larry McVoy wrote: > > > In a recent numa meeting that Scott called, Jeff suggested a small > > patch to the pageout daemon (included below). > > > > It's rather dramatic the difference it makes for me. If I arrange to > > thrash the crap out of memory, without this patch the kernel is so > > borked with all the processes in disk wait that I can't kill them, > > I can't reboot, my only option is to power off. > > > > With the patch there is still some borkage, the kernel is randomly > > killing processes because of out of mem, it should kill one of my > > processes that is causing the problem but it doesn't, it killed > > random stuff like dhclient, getty (logged me out), etc. > > > > But the system is responsive. > > > > What the patch does is say "if we have more than one core, don't sleep > > in pageout, just keep running until we freed enough mem". > > > > Comments? > > > > Just to confirm why this patch works. > > For UP systems, we have to pause here to allow work to complete, otherwise > we can't switch to their threads to complete the I/Os. For MP, however, we > can continue to schedule more work because that work can be completed on > other CPUs. This parallelism greatly increases the pageout rate, allowing > the system to keep up better when some ass-hat process (or processes) is > thrashing memory. Yep. > I'm pretty sure the UP case was also designed to not flood the lower layers > with work, starving other consumers. Does this result in undo flooding, and > would we get better results if we could schedule up to the right amount of > work rather flooding in the MP case? I dunno if there is a "right amount". I could make it a little smarter by keeping track of how many pages we freed and sleep if we freed none in a scan (which seems really unlikely). All I know for sure is that without this you can lock up the system to the point it takes a power cycle to unwedge it. With this the system is responsive. Rather than worrying about the smartness, I'd argue this is an improvement, ship it, and then I can go look at how the system decides to kill processes (because that's currently busted). From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Nov 30 19:32:26 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F431E69AA9 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 19:32:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from kib.kiev.ua (kib.kiev.ua [IPv6:2001:470:d5e7:1::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 44C7A71772 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 19:32:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from tom.home (kib@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kib.kiev.ua (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id vAUJWEjw046338 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 30 Nov 2017 21:32:14 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 kib.kiev.ua vAUJWEjw046338 Received: (from kostik@localhost) by tom.home (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id vAUJWDne046337; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 21:32:13 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) X-Authentication-Warning: tom.home: kostik set sender to kostikbel@gmail.com using -f Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 21:32:13 +0200 From: Konstantin Belousov To: Larry McVoy Cc: Warner Losh , Scott Long , Kevin Bowling , Drew Gallatin , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: small patch for pageout. Comments? Message-ID: <20171130193213.GF2272@kib.kiev.ua> References: <20171130173424.GA811@mcvoy.com> <20171130184923.GA30262@mcvoy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20171130184923.GA30262@mcvoy.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.1 (2017-09-22) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED,FREEMAIL_FROM,NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.1 (2015-04-28) on tom.home X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 19:32:26 -0000 On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 10:49:23AM -0800, Larry McVoy wrote: > On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 11:37:35AM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 10:34 AM, Larry McVoy wrote: > > > > > In a recent numa meeting that Scott called, Jeff suggested a small > > > patch to the pageout daemon (included below). > > > > > > It's rather dramatic the difference it makes for me. If I arrange to > > > thrash the crap out of memory, without this patch the kernel is so > > > borked with all the processes in disk wait that I can't kill them, > > > I can't reboot, my only option is to power off. > > > > > > With the patch there is still some borkage, the kernel is randomly > > > killing processes because of out of mem, it should kill one of my > > > processes that is causing the problem but it doesn't, it killed > > > random stuff like dhclient, getty (logged me out), etc. > > > > > > But the system is responsive. > > > > > > What the patch does is say "if we have more than one core, don't sleep > > > in pageout, just keep running until we freed enough mem". > > > > > > Comments? > > > > > > > Just to confirm why this patch works. > > > > For UP systems, we have to pause here to allow work to complete, otherwise > > we can't switch to their threads to complete the I/Os. For MP, however, we > > can continue to schedule more work because that work can be completed on > > other CPUs. This parallelism greatly increases the pageout rate, allowing > > the system to keep up better when some ass-hat process (or processes) is > > thrashing memory. > > Yep. > > > I'm pretty sure the UP case was also designed to not flood the lower layers > > with work, starving other consumers. Does this result in undo flooding, and > > would we get better results if we could schedule up to the right amount of > > work rather flooding in the MP case? > > I dunno if there is a "right amount". I could make it a little smarter by > keeping track of how many pages we freed and sleep if we freed none in a > scan (which seems really unlikely). > > All I know for sure is that without this you can lock up the system to > the point it takes a power cycle to unwedge it. With this the system > is responsive. > > Rather than worrying about the smartness, I'd argue this is an improvement, > ship it, and then I can go look at how the system decides to kill processes > (because that's currently busted). The issue with the current OOM is that it is too conservative and hard to tune automatically. I tries to measure the pagedaemon progress and cautiously steps back if some forward progress is made. It is apparently hard to make it more aggressive but not to reintroduce too eager behaviour of the previous OOM, where small machines without or with small swap get OOM triggered without much justification. I have a patch that complements the pagedaemon progress detection by the simple but apparently effective detection of the page fault' time allocation stalls. It worked for me on some relatively large machines (~64-128G) with too many multi-gig processes and no swap. Such load made the machine catatonic, OOM triggered but it required long reshuffling of the pages from active to inactive queues or hand-tuning vm.pageout_oom_seq (lowering it with the risk of allowing false positives). With the patch, I got them recovered in 30 seconds (this is configurable). diff --git a/sys/vm/vm_fault.c b/sys/vm/vm_fault.c index ece496407c2..560983c632e 100644 --- a/sys/vm/vm_fault.c +++ b/sys/vm/vm_fault.c @@ -134,6 +134,16 @@ static void vm_fault_dontneed(const struct faultstate *fs, vm_offset_t vaddr, static void vm_fault_prefault(const struct faultstate *fs, vm_offset_t addra, int backward, int forward); +static int vm_pfault_oom_attempts = 3; +SYSCTL_INT(_vm, OID_AUTO, pfault_oom_attempts, CTLFLAG_RWTUN, + &vm_pfault_oom_attempts, 0, + ""); + +static int vm_pfault_oom_wait = 10; +SYSCTL_INT(_vm, OID_AUTO, pfault_oom_wait, CTLFLAG_RWTUN, + &vm_pfault_oom_wait, 0, + ""); + static inline void release_page(struct faultstate *fs) { @@ -531,7 +541,7 @@ vm_fault_hold(vm_map_t map, vm_offset_t vaddr, vm_prot_t fault_type, vm_pindex_t retry_pindex; vm_prot_t prot, retry_prot; int ahead, alloc_req, behind, cluster_offset, error, era, faultcount; - int locked, nera, result, rv; + int locked, nera, oom, result, rv; u_char behavior; boolean_t wired; /* Passed by reference. */ bool dead, hardfault, is_first_object_locked; @@ -543,6 +553,8 @@ vm_fault_hold(vm_map_t map, vm_offset_t vaddr, vm_prot_t fault_type, hardfault = false; RetryFault:; + oom = 0; +RetryFault_oom:; /* * Find the backing store object and offset into it to begin the @@ -787,7 +799,17 @@ RetryFault:; } if (fs.m == NULL) { unlock_and_deallocate(&fs); - VM_WAITPFAULT; + vm_waitpfault(vm_pfault_oom_wait); + if (vm_pfault_oom_wait < 0 || + oom < vm_pfault_oom_wait) { + oom++; + goto RetryFault_oom; + } + if (bootverbose) + printf( + "proc %d (%s) failed to alloc page on fault, starting OOM\n", + curproc->p_pid, curproc->p_comm); + vm_pageout_oom(VM_OOM_MEM); goto RetryFault; } } diff --git a/sys/vm/vm_page.c b/sys/vm/vm_page.c index 4711af9d16d..67c8ddd4b92 100644 --- a/sys/vm/vm_page.c +++ b/sys/vm/vm_page.c @@ -2724,7 +2724,7 @@ vm_page_alloc_fail(vm_object_t object, int req) * this balance without careful testing first. */ void -vm_waitpfault(void) +vm_waitpfault(int wp) { mtx_lock(&vm_page_queue_free_mtx); @@ -2734,7 +2734,7 @@ vm_waitpfault(void) } vm_pages_needed = true; msleep(&vm_cnt.v_free_count, &vm_page_queue_free_mtx, PDROP | PUSER, - "pfault", 0); + "pfault", wp * hz); } struct vm_pagequeue * diff --git a/sys/vm/vm_pageout.h b/sys/vm/vm_pageout.h index 2cdb1492fab..bf09d7142d0 100644 --- a/sys/vm/vm_pageout.h +++ b/sys/vm/vm_pageout.h @@ -96,11 +96,10 @@ extern bool vm_pages_needed; * Signal pageout-daemon and wait for it. */ -extern void pagedaemon_wakeup(void); +void pagedaemon_wakeup(void); #define VM_WAIT vm_wait() -#define VM_WAITPFAULT vm_waitpfault() -extern void vm_wait(void); -extern void vm_waitpfault(void); +void vm_wait(void); +void vm_waitpfault(int wp); #ifdef _KERNEL int vm_pageout_flush(vm_page_t *, int, int, int, int *, boolean_t *); From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Nov 30 20:30:49 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0732BDB9192 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 20:30:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lm@mcvoy.com) Received: from mcvoy.com (mcvoy.com [192.169.23.250]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DD95773729 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 20:30:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lm@mcvoy.com) Received: by mcvoy.com (Postfix, from userid 3546) id 017AF35E0BB; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 12:30:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 12:30:47 -0800 From: Larry McVoy To: Konstantin Belousov Cc: Larry McVoy , Warner Losh , Scott Long , Kevin Bowling , Drew Gallatin , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: small patch for pageout. Comments? Message-ID: <20171130203047.GB30262@mcvoy.com> References: <20171130173424.GA811@mcvoy.com> <20171130184923.GA30262@mcvoy.com> <20171130193213.GF2272@kib.kiev.ua> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20171130193213.GF2272@kib.kiev.ua> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 20:30:49 -0000 I'll give this patch a try and compare to the pageout patch. -- --- Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Nov 30 20:37:36 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB1EDDB97D2 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 20:37:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from kib.kiev.ua (kib.kiev.ua [IPv6:2001:470:d5e7:1::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F0A5F742FE for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 20:37:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from tom.home (kib@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kib.kiev.ua (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id vAUKbQuP062173 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 30 Nov 2017 22:37:26 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 kib.kiev.ua vAUKbQuP062173 Received: (from kostik@localhost) by tom.home (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id vAUKbPFY062172; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 22:37:25 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) X-Authentication-Warning: tom.home: kostik set sender to kostikbel@gmail.com using -f Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 22:37:25 +0200 From: Konstantin Belousov To: Larry McVoy Cc: Warner Losh , Scott Long , Kevin Bowling , Drew Gallatin , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: small patch for pageout. Comments? Message-ID: <20171130203725.GG2272@kib.kiev.ua> References: <20171130173424.GA811@mcvoy.com> <20171130184923.GA30262@mcvoy.com> <20171130193213.GF2272@kib.kiev.ua> <20171130203047.GB30262@mcvoy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20171130203047.GB30262@mcvoy.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.1 (2017-09-22) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED,FREEMAIL_FROM,NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.1 (2015-04-28) on tom.home X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 20:37:37 -0000 On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 12:30:47PM -0800, Larry McVoy wrote: > I'll give this patch a try and compare to the pageout patch. What do you mean by 'compare to ...' ? BTW, below are some fixes which I found when re-read the changes. It messed up counters/timeouts. Better use this. diff --git a/sys/vm/vm_fault.c b/sys/vm/vm_fault.c index ece496407c2..48b3934ddd5 100644 --- a/sys/vm/vm_fault.c +++ b/sys/vm/vm_fault.c @@ -134,6 +134,16 @@ static void vm_fault_dontneed(const struct faultstate *fs, vm_offset_t vaddr, static void vm_fault_prefault(const struct faultstate *fs, vm_offset_t addra, int backward, int forward); +static int vm_pfault_oom_attempts = 3; +SYSCTL_INT(_vm, OID_AUTO, pfault_oom_attempts, CTLFLAG_RWTUN, + &vm_pfault_oom_attempts, 0, + ""); + +static int vm_pfault_oom_wait = 10; +SYSCTL_INT(_vm, OID_AUTO, pfault_oom_wait, CTLFLAG_RWTUN, + &vm_pfault_oom_wait, 0, + ""); + static inline void release_page(struct faultstate *fs) { @@ -531,7 +541,7 @@ vm_fault_hold(vm_map_t map, vm_offset_t vaddr, vm_prot_t fault_type, vm_pindex_t retry_pindex; vm_prot_t prot, retry_prot; int ahead, alloc_req, behind, cluster_offset, error, era, faultcount; - int locked, nera, result, rv; + int locked, nera, oom, result, rv; u_char behavior; boolean_t wired; /* Passed by reference. */ bool dead, hardfault, is_first_object_locked; @@ -543,6 +553,8 @@ vm_fault_hold(vm_map_t map, vm_offset_t vaddr, vm_prot_t fault_type, hardfault = false; RetryFault:; + oom = 0; +RetryFault_oom:; /* * Find the backing store object and offset into it to begin the @@ -787,7 +799,17 @@ RetryFault:; } if (fs.m == NULL) { unlock_and_deallocate(&fs); - VM_WAITPFAULT; + if (vm_pfault_oom_attempts < 0 || + oom < vm_pfault_oom_attempts) { + oom++; + vm_waitpfault(vm_pfault_oom_wait); + goto RetryFault_oom; + } + if (bootverbose) + printf( + "proc %d (%s) failed to alloc page on fault, starting OOM\n", + curproc->p_pid, curproc->p_comm); + vm_pageout_oom(VM_OOM_MEM); goto RetryFault; } } diff --git a/sys/vm/vm_page.c b/sys/vm/vm_page.c index 4711af9d16d..67c8ddd4b92 100644 --- a/sys/vm/vm_page.c +++ b/sys/vm/vm_page.c @@ -2724,7 +2724,7 @@ vm_page_alloc_fail(vm_object_t object, int req) * this balance without careful testing first. */ void -vm_waitpfault(void) +vm_waitpfault(int wp) { mtx_lock(&vm_page_queue_free_mtx); @@ -2734,7 +2734,7 @@ vm_waitpfault(void) } vm_pages_needed = true; msleep(&vm_cnt.v_free_count, &vm_page_queue_free_mtx, PDROP | PUSER, - "pfault", 0); + "pfault", wp * hz); } struct vm_pagequeue * diff --git a/sys/vm/vm_pageout.h b/sys/vm/vm_pageout.h index 2cdb1492fab..bf09d7142d0 100644 --- a/sys/vm/vm_pageout.h +++ b/sys/vm/vm_pageout.h @@ -96,11 +96,10 @@ extern bool vm_pages_needed; * Signal pageout-daemon and wait for it. */ -extern void pagedaemon_wakeup(void); +void pagedaemon_wakeup(void); #define VM_WAIT vm_wait() -#define VM_WAITPFAULT vm_waitpfault() -extern void vm_wait(void); -extern void vm_waitpfault(void); +void vm_wait(void); +void vm_waitpfault(int wp); #ifdef _KERNEL int vm_pageout_flush(vm_page_t *, int, int, int, int *, boolean_t *); From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Nov 30 20:39:13 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C6E1DB991B for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 20:39:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lm@mcvoy.com) Received: from mcvoy.com (mcvoy.com [192.169.23.250]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F95F7444C for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 20:39:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lm@mcvoy.com) Received: by mcvoy.com (Postfix, from userid 3546) id 977C035E0BB; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 12:39:11 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 12:39:11 -0800 From: Larry McVoy To: Konstantin Belousov Cc: Larry McVoy , Warner Losh , Scott Long , Kevin Bowling , Drew Gallatin , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: small patch for pageout. Comments? Message-ID: <20171130203911.GC30262@mcvoy.com> References: <20171130173424.GA811@mcvoy.com> <20171130184923.GA30262@mcvoy.com> <20171130193213.GF2272@kib.kiev.ua> <20171130203047.GB30262@mcvoy.com> <20171130203725.GG2272@kib.kiev.ua> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20171130203725.GG2272@kib.kiev.ua> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 20:39:13 -0000 Perhaps I misunderstood, I thought your patch was instead of the pageout patch. Is that not the case? On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 10:37:25PM +0200, Konstantin Belousov wrote: > On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 12:30:47PM -0800, Larry McVoy wrote: > > I'll give this patch a try and compare to the pageout patch. > > What do you mean by 'compare to ...' ? > > BTW, below are some fixes which I found when re-read the changes. > It messed up counters/timeouts. Better use this. > > diff --git a/sys/vm/vm_fault.c b/sys/vm/vm_fault.c > index ece496407c2..48b3934ddd5 100644 > --- a/sys/vm/vm_fault.c > +++ b/sys/vm/vm_fault.c > @@ -134,6 +134,16 @@ static void vm_fault_dontneed(const struct faultstate *fs, vm_offset_t vaddr, > static void vm_fault_prefault(const struct faultstate *fs, vm_offset_t addra, > int backward, int forward); > > +static int vm_pfault_oom_attempts = 3; > +SYSCTL_INT(_vm, OID_AUTO, pfault_oom_attempts, CTLFLAG_RWTUN, > + &vm_pfault_oom_attempts, 0, > + ""); > + > +static int vm_pfault_oom_wait = 10; > +SYSCTL_INT(_vm, OID_AUTO, pfault_oom_wait, CTLFLAG_RWTUN, > + &vm_pfault_oom_wait, 0, > + ""); > + > static inline void > release_page(struct faultstate *fs) > { > @@ -531,7 +541,7 @@ vm_fault_hold(vm_map_t map, vm_offset_t vaddr, vm_prot_t fault_type, > vm_pindex_t retry_pindex; > vm_prot_t prot, retry_prot; > int ahead, alloc_req, behind, cluster_offset, error, era, faultcount; > - int locked, nera, result, rv; > + int locked, nera, oom, result, rv; > u_char behavior; > boolean_t wired; /* Passed by reference. */ > bool dead, hardfault, is_first_object_locked; > @@ -543,6 +553,8 @@ vm_fault_hold(vm_map_t map, vm_offset_t vaddr, vm_prot_t fault_type, > hardfault = false; > > RetryFault:; > + oom = 0; > +RetryFault_oom:; > > /* > * Find the backing store object and offset into it to begin the > @@ -787,7 +799,17 @@ RetryFault:; > } > if (fs.m == NULL) { > unlock_and_deallocate(&fs); > - VM_WAITPFAULT; > + if (vm_pfault_oom_attempts < 0 || > + oom < vm_pfault_oom_attempts) { > + oom++; > + vm_waitpfault(vm_pfault_oom_wait); > + goto RetryFault_oom; > + } > + if (bootverbose) > + printf( > + "proc %d (%s) failed to alloc page on fault, starting OOM\n", > + curproc->p_pid, curproc->p_comm); > + vm_pageout_oom(VM_OOM_MEM); > goto RetryFault; > } > } > diff --git a/sys/vm/vm_page.c b/sys/vm/vm_page.c > index 4711af9d16d..67c8ddd4b92 100644 > --- a/sys/vm/vm_page.c > +++ b/sys/vm/vm_page.c > @@ -2724,7 +2724,7 @@ vm_page_alloc_fail(vm_object_t object, int req) > * this balance without careful testing first. > */ > void > -vm_waitpfault(void) > +vm_waitpfault(int wp) > { > > mtx_lock(&vm_page_queue_free_mtx); > @@ -2734,7 +2734,7 @@ vm_waitpfault(void) > } > vm_pages_needed = true; > msleep(&vm_cnt.v_free_count, &vm_page_queue_free_mtx, PDROP | PUSER, > - "pfault", 0); > + "pfault", wp * hz); > } > > struct vm_pagequeue * > diff --git a/sys/vm/vm_pageout.h b/sys/vm/vm_pageout.h > index 2cdb1492fab..bf09d7142d0 100644 > --- a/sys/vm/vm_pageout.h > +++ b/sys/vm/vm_pageout.h > @@ -96,11 +96,10 @@ extern bool vm_pages_needed; > * Signal pageout-daemon and wait for it. > */ > > -extern void pagedaemon_wakeup(void); > +void pagedaemon_wakeup(void); > #define VM_WAIT vm_wait() > -#define VM_WAITPFAULT vm_waitpfault() > -extern void vm_wait(void); > -extern void vm_waitpfault(void); > +void vm_wait(void); > +void vm_waitpfault(int wp); > > #ifdef _KERNEL > int vm_pageout_flush(vm_page_t *, int, int, int, int *, boolean_t *); -- --- Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Nov 30 20:47:54 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E379CDB9DF8 for ; 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[69.159.38.22]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l125sm2780429qkc.3.2017.11.30.12.47.52 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 30 Nov 2017 12:47:52 -0800 (PST) Sender: Mark Johnston Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 15:47:50 -0500 From: Mark Johnston To: Larry McVoy Cc: Warner Losh , Scott Long , Kevin Bowling , Drew Gallatin , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: small patch for pageout. Comments? Message-ID: <20171130204750.GB21606@raichu> References: <20171130173424.GA811@mcvoy.com> <20171130184923.GA30262@mcvoy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20171130184923.GA30262@mcvoy.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.1 (2017-09-22) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 20:47:55 -0000 On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 10:49:23AM -0800, Larry McVoy wrote: > On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 11:37:35AM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 10:34 AM, Larry McVoy wrote: > > > > > In a recent numa meeting that Scott called, Jeff suggested a small > > > patch to the pageout daemon (included below). > > > > > > It's rather dramatic the difference it makes for me. If I arrange to > > > thrash the crap out of memory, without this patch the kernel is so > > > borked with all the processes in disk wait that I can't kill them, > > > I can't reboot, my only option is to power off. > > > > > > With the patch there is still some borkage, the kernel is randomly > > > killing processes because of out of mem, it should kill one of my > > > processes that is causing the problem but it doesn't, it killed > > > random stuff like dhclient, getty (logged me out), etc. > > > > > > But the system is responsive. > > > > > > What the patch does is say "if we have more than one core, don't sleep > > > in pageout, just keep running until we freed enough mem". > > > > > > Comments? > > > > > > > Just to confirm why this patch works. > > > > For UP systems, we have to pause here to allow work to complete, otherwise > > we can't switch to their threads to complete the I/Os. For MP, however, we > > can continue to schedule more work because that work can be completed on > > other CPUs. This parallelism greatly increases the pageout rate, allowing > > the system to keep up better when some ass-hat process (or processes) is > > thrashing memory. > > Yep. > > > I'm pretty sure the UP case was also designed to not flood the lower layers > > with work, starving other consumers. Does this result in undo flooding, and > > would we get better results if we could schedule up to the right amount of > > work rather flooding in the MP case? > > I dunno if there is a "right amount". I could make it a little smarter by > keeping track of how many pages we freed and sleep if we freed none in a > scan (which seems really unlikely). This situation can happen if the inactive queue is full of dirty pages. A problem with your patch is that we might not give enough time to the laundry thread (the thread responsible for writing the contents of dirty pages to disk and returning them to inactive queue for the page daemon to free) to write out dirty pages. In this case we might trigger the OOM killer prematurely, and in fact this scenario is what motivated r300865. So I would argue that we do in fact need to sleep if the page daemon is failing to make progress, in order to give time for I/O to complete. > All I know for sure is that without this you can lock up the system to > the point it takes a power cycle to unwedge it. With this the system > is responsive. > > Rather than worrying about the smartness, I'd argue this is an improvement, > ship it, and then I can go look at how the system decides to kill processes > (because that's currently busted). > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Nov 30 20:50:42 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93973DB9F04 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 20:50:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lm@mcvoy.com) Received: from mcvoy.com (mcvoy.com [192.169.23.250]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 849E574C56; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 20:50:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lm@mcvoy.com) Received: by mcvoy.com (Postfix, from userid 3546) id A8EBB35E0BB; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 12:50:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 12:50:41 -0800 From: Larry McVoy To: Mark Johnston Cc: Larry McVoy , Warner Losh , Scott Long , Kevin Bowling , Drew Gallatin , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: small patch for pageout. Comments? Message-ID: <20171130205041.GA3924@mcvoy.com> References: <20171130173424.GA811@mcvoy.com> <20171130184923.GA30262@mcvoy.com> <20171130204750.GB21606@raichu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20171130204750.GB21606@raichu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 20:50:42 -0000 On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 03:47:50PM -0500, Mark Johnston wrote: > > I dunno if there is a "right amount". I could make it a little smarter by > > keeping track of how many pages we freed and sleep if we freed none in a > > scan (which seems really unlikely). > > This situation can happen if the inactive queue is full of dirty pages. > A problem with your patch is that we might not give enough time to the > laundry thread (the thread responsible for writing the contents of dirty > pages to disk and returning them to inactive queue for the page daemon > to free) to write out dirty pages. In this case we might trigger the OOM > killer prematurely, and in fact this scenario is what motivated r300865. > So I would argue that we do in fact need to sleep if the page daemon is > failing to make progress, in order to give time for I/O to complete. OK, that sounds reasonable. So what defines progress? v_dfree not increasing? Is one page freed progress? From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Nov 30 21:01:36 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 827F8DBA4E7 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 21:01:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from markjdb@gmail.com) Received: from mail-it0-x233.google.com (mail-it0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 45B7F75795 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 21:01:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from markjdb@gmail.com) Received: by mail-it0-x233.google.com with SMTP id z6so61312iti.4 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 13:01:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=mvvJj/29SSZUubjoLANuyFG9KwcbA44Kd4oh6y2mqys=; b=QwFNzyWInxmP1qhgNF/w8L94Fg8U/6VVuquV1qr9UIIakpZiuDR2RwYEs+SIwvURyv u8UovgkR7OK0jaGAPbAqzDmXWIZoXwaeTBf0HbBH55tFtCUazWxj6bvU51gAg157QBf2 MUF79ecQKl2Eznp9vhwPHrJiSQsUdoWH+v7XiPkhS1Ta4M1dXUh0O6fH5ZaZTiIaIluc TDitRFkCJXvKeHa6Fr/mhzjvoR1GZ7dDOS2TIwv488uqfJV+HKHxT/XM0MwwyzFZykDE pwOIznjU64WqrvlMw7o8t2FOL6sFYbOiGv4+vmBO4h2q6J5Oc8zLZ6bVO9/GgTjdZVBq 8RhA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id :references:mime-version:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=mvvJj/29SSZUubjoLANuyFG9KwcbA44Kd4oh6y2mqys=; b=g2Ks+ftd7yZFwIczFHlu5vz3wl1RRlbuV8tmzLlI6QI2w0X1oi7C4JhBYEHOHAWRAk zF5H8z+YiN0CumV6MoFHW9WsSPv3w8dNMHKRg0PvBoy2APUtPaLGnkCX9FSu9lfmiWX9 Yhcf66dcEbZhoewkPVgt4OujZ15jyYlpV0ddIT7/sRqLwhzypHMKSV+/90b3b3F/PA6I IBMZSQuPMauS2cLRmym6XcbleZqzvI93uyyiK4QszF3Kj2piUf/g6k9slYHhxIYdQBgW 8UcwyeOWPwXGxLsG9ojzFmJuPFRSMGJ1bIVXyAeNJ6hm7YMEQKSLgiEYHN+QY68zLNLr OEvQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX6AbrrpmYKir8edOglSu3bdMU/+njImRCUsQJzueNJNGLUQoNgn sKjpSFzZ78IAvY2eV+QFIsg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMYJuz+mDVYMFAocpAB4NAeDFeqED1s0gIUWfNwbrp1sfrUfy1CkXM0S/wNEpfqlSqTtT+3KVg== X-Received: by 10.36.222.68 with SMTP id d65mr5328624itg.67.1512075695491; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 13:01:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from raichu (toroon0560w-lp140-01-69-159-38-22.dsl.bell.ca. [69.159.38.22]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 23sm2728358itj.15.2017.11.30.13.01.33 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 30 Nov 2017 13:01:34 -0800 (PST) Sender: Mark Johnston Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 16:01:31 -0500 From: Mark Johnston To: Larry McVoy Cc: Warner Losh , Scott Long , Kevin Bowling , Drew Gallatin , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: small patch for pageout. Comments? Message-ID: <20171130210131.GC21606@raichu> References: <20171130173424.GA811@mcvoy.com> <20171130184923.GA30262@mcvoy.com> <20171130204750.GB21606@raichu> <20171130205041.GA3924@mcvoy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20171130205041.GA3924@mcvoy.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.1 (2017-09-22) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 21:01:36 -0000 On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 12:50:41PM -0800, Larry McVoy wrote: > On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 03:47:50PM -0500, Mark Johnston wrote: > > > I dunno if there is a "right amount". I could make it a little smarter by > > > keeping track of how many pages we freed and sleep if we freed none in a > > > scan (which seems really unlikely). > > > > This situation can happen if the inactive queue is full of dirty pages. > > A problem with your patch is that we might not give enough time to the > > laundry thread (the thread responsible for writing the contents of dirty > > pages to disk and returning them to inactive queue for the page daemon > > to free) to write out dirty pages. In this case we might trigger the OOM > > killer prematurely, and in fact this scenario is what motivated r300865. > > So I would argue that we do in fact need to sleep if the page daemon is > > failing to make progress, in order to give time for I/O to complete. > > OK, that sounds reasonable. So what defines progress? v_dfree not > increasing? Is one page freed progress? One page freed is progress. We currently invoke the OOM killer only when the page daemon is making no progress. This turns out to be too conservative, which is what kib's patch attempts to address. wrt your patch, I'm saying that I think we should still sleep after a scan that failed to free any pages. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Nov 30 21:04:26 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B95CCDBA838 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 21:04:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from kib.kiev.ua (kib.kiev.ua [IPv6:2001:470:d5e7:1::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C62A75A23 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 21:04:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from tom.home (kib@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kib.kiev.ua (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id vAUL4KrX070172 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 30 Nov 2017 23:04:20 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 kib.kiev.ua vAUL4KrX070172 Received: (from kostik@localhost) by tom.home (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id vAUL4JSm070169; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 23:04:19 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) X-Authentication-Warning: tom.home: kostik set sender to kostikbel@gmail.com using -f Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 23:04:19 +0200 From: Konstantin Belousov To: Larry McVoy Cc: Warner Losh , Scott Long , Kevin Bowling , Drew Gallatin , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: small patch for pageout. Comments? Message-ID: <20171130210419.GH2272@kib.kiev.ua> References: <20171130173424.GA811@mcvoy.com> <20171130184923.GA30262@mcvoy.com> <20171130193213.GF2272@kib.kiev.ua> <20171130203047.GB30262@mcvoy.com> <20171130203725.GG2272@kib.kiev.ua> <20171130203911.GC30262@mcvoy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20171130203911.GC30262@mcvoy.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.1 (2017-09-22) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED,FREEMAIL_FROM,NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.1 (2015-04-28) on tom.home X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 21:04:26 -0000 On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 12:39:11PM -0800, Larry McVoy wrote: > Perhaps I misunderstood, I thought your patch was instead of the pageout > patch. Is that not the case? The patch aims to fix the situation where OOM triggers too late. It might have some effect when pagedaemon cannot cope with the speed of page allocations, but it would do it in rather rude manner of causing OOM if some process cannot get a free page for long time because page daemon does not provide enough free pages and other allocators steal the limited supply. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Nov 30 21:09:20 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9FE2DBA9B8 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 21:09:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lm@mcvoy.com) Received: from mcvoy.com (mcvoy.com [192.169.23.250]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9990A75C4A; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 21:09:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lm@mcvoy.com) Received: by mcvoy.com (Postfix, from userid 3546) id 4FC0F35E0BB; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 13:09:19 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 13:09:19 -0800 From: Larry McVoy To: Mark Johnston Cc: Larry McVoy , Warner Losh , Scott Long , Kevin Bowling , Drew Gallatin , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: small patch for pageout. Comments? Message-ID: <20171130210919.GB3924@mcvoy.com> References: <20171130173424.GA811@mcvoy.com> <20171130184923.GA30262@mcvoy.com> <20171130204750.GB21606@raichu> <20171130205041.GA3924@mcvoy.com> <20171130210131.GC21606@raichu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20171130210131.GC21606@raichu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 21:09:20 -0000 On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 04:01:31PM -0500, Mark Johnston wrote: > On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 12:50:41PM -0800, Larry McVoy wrote: > > On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 03:47:50PM -0500, Mark Johnston wrote: > > > > I dunno if there is a "right amount". I could make it a little smarter by > > > > keeping track of how many pages we freed and sleep if we freed none in a > > > > scan (which seems really unlikely). > > > > > > This situation can happen if the inactive queue is full of dirty pages. > > > A problem with your patch is that we might not give enough time to the > > > laundry thread (the thread responsible for writing the contents of dirty > > > pages to disk and returning them to inactive queue for the page daemon > > > to free) to write out dirty pages. In this case we might trigger the OOM > > > killer prematurely, and in fact this scenario is what motivated r300865. > > > So I would argue that we do in fact need to sleep if the page daemon is > > > failing to make progress, in order to give time for I/O to complete. > > > > OK, that sounds reasonable. So what defines progress? v_dfree not > > increasing? Is one page freed progress? > > One page freed is progress. We currently invoke the OOM killer only when > the page daemon is making no progress. This turns out to be too > conservative, which is what kib's patch attempts to address. wrt > your patch, I'm saying that I think we should still sleep after a scan > that failed to free any pages. Something like this? --- a/sys/vm/vm_pageout.c +++ b/sys/vm/vm_pageout.c @@ -1752,6 +1752,7 @@ vm_pageout_worker(void *arg) struct vm_domain *domain; int domidx, pass; bool target_met; + u_int dfree; domidx = (uintptr_t)arg; domain = &vm_dom[domidx]; @@ -1776,6 +1777,7 @@ vm_pageout_worker(void *arg) */ while (TRUE) { mtx_lock(&vm_page_queue_free_mtx); + dfree = VM_CNT_FETCH(v_dfree); /* * Generally, after a level >= 1 scan, if there are enough @@ -1815,10 +1817,22 @@ vm_pageout_worker(void *arg) * (page reclamation) scan, then increase the level * and scan again now. Otherwise, sleep a bit and * try again later. + * + * If we have more than one CPU this pause is not + * helpful, it just decreases the rate at which we + * clean pages. On a uniprocessor we want to pause + * to let the user level processes get some time to + * run. We also don't keep banging on the page tables + * if we didn't manage to free any in the last pass. */ mtx_unlock(&vm_page_queue_free_mtx); - if (pass >= 1) - pause("psleep", hz / VM_INACT_SCAN_RATE); + if (pass >= 1) { + dfree = VM_CNT_FETCH(v_dfree) - dfree; + if ((dfree == 0) || (mp_ncpus < 2)) { +if (!dfree) printf("Sleeping because pass %d didn't find anything\n", pass); + pause("psleep", hz / VM_INACT_SCAN_RATE); + } + } pass++; } else { /* From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Nov 30 21:15:25 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AE19DBAEE7 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 21:15:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lm@mcvoy.com) Received: from mcvoy.com (mcvoy.com [192.169.23.250]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B348763E9; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 21:15:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lm@mcvoy.com) Received: by mcvoy.com (Postfix, from userid 3546) id D5FDB35E0BB; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 13:15:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 13:15:24 -0800 From: Larry McVoy To: Mark Johnston Cc: Larry McVoy , Warner Losh , Scott Long , Kevin Bowling , Drew Gallatin , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: small patch for pageout. Comments? Message-ID: <20171130211524.GC3924@mcvoy.com> References: <20171130173424.GA811@mcvoy.com> <20171130184923.GA30262@mcvoy.com> <20171130204750.GB21606@raichu> <20171130205041.GA3924@mcvoy.com> <20171130210131.GC21606@raichu> <20171130210919.GB3924@mcvoy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20171130210919.GB3924@mcvoy.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 21:15:25 -0000 Look at that, Mark was right: Sleeping because pass 1 didn't find anything Sleeping because pass 2 didn't find anything Sleeping because pass 1 didn't find anything Sleeping because pass 3 didn't find anything -- --- Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Nov 30 21:19:03 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF2BDDBAFE9 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 21:19:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lm@mcvoy.com) Received: from mcvoy.com (mcvoy.com [192.169.23.250]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BDCD176513; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 21:19:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lm@mcvoy.com) Received: by mcvoy.com (Postfix, from userid 3546) id E343B35E0BB; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 13:19:02 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 13:19:02 -0800 From: Larry McVoy To: Mark Johnston Cc: Larry McVoy , Warner Losh , Scott Long , Kevin Bowling , Drew Gallatin , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: small patch for pageout. Comments? Message-ID: <20171130211902.GD3924@mcvoy.com> References: <20171130173424.GA811@mcvoy.com> <20171130184923.GA30262@mcvoy.com> <20171130204750.GB21606@raichu> <20171130205041.GA3924@mcvoy.com> <20171130210131.GC21606@raichu> <20171130210919.GB3924@mcvoy.com> <20171130211524.GC3924@mcvoy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20171130211524.GC3924@mcvoy.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 21:19:03 -0000 But we're borked again, this patch is not enough. Gonna try adding the OOM stuff. On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 01:15:24PM -0800, Larry McVoy wrote: > Look at that, Mark was right: > > Sleeping because pass 1 didn't find anything > Sleeping because pass 2 didn't find anything > Sleeping because pass 1 didn't find anything > Sleeping because pass 3 didn't find anything > > -- > --- > Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm -- --- Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Nov 30 21:40:06 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E15B6DBBB99 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 21:40:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lm@mcvoy.com) Received: from mcvoy.com (mcvoy.com [192.169.23.250]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D03FA7787A; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 21:40:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lm@mcvoy.com) Received: by mcvoy.com (Postfix, from userid 3546) id EB1E435E0BB; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 13:40:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 13:40:05 -0800 From: Larry McVoy To: Mark Johnston Cc: Larry McVoy , Warner Losh , Scott Long , Kevin Bowling , Drew Gallatin , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: small patch for pageout. Comments? Message-ID: <20171130214005.GF3924@mcvoy.com> References: <20171130173424.GA811@mcvoy.com> <20171130184923.GA30262@mcvoy.com> <20171130204750.GB21606@raichu> <20171130205041.GA3924@mcvoy.com> <20171130210131.GC21606@raichu> <20171130210919.GB3924@mcvoy.com> <20171130211524.GC3924@mcvoy.com> <20171130211902.GD3924@mcvoy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20171130211902.GD3924@mcvoy.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 21:40:07 -0000 Welp, that doesn't help either. So with my patch and KIB's patch, system is wedged, can't kill the processes, can't do anything other than reboot. I guess that's motivation to learn the remote console stuff. On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 01:19:02PM -0800, Larry McVoy wrote: > But we're borked again, this patch is not enough. Gonna try adding the > OOM stuff. > > On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 01:15:24PM -0800, Larry McVoy wrote: > > Look at that, Mark was right: > > > > Sleeping because pass 1 didn't find anything > > Sleeping because pass 2 didn't find anything > > Sleeping because pass 1 didn't find anything > > Sleeping because pass 3 didn't find anything > > > > -- > > --- > > Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm > > -- > --- > Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm -- --- Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Nov 30 23:13:53 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 484C8DEC532; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 23:13:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dieterbsd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-it0-x22f.google.com (mail-it0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 119447ACE7; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 23:13:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dieterbsd@gmail.com) Received: by mail-it0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id u62so460441ita.2; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 15:13:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=eknDXaGa7UNOaPkiprLg27Eu3HvqfKgmsoUCVdfQRL0=; b=LmTjzA0rZ2co1g/1AYnw66b4DtQoGtmY75IMAdPI+LMcfnCPBr5i0VEOjgE8EotfbU O6JA7GlZdJIebJNPaVGwh3BLOtMdj+kG9N0IHCrko0yvBZzRGsvW1AV8qYGvjDccm//Z 5l3TADpmuD+xim+ypw418n0oRJFtdC9mBe0+RPb1z4wvnkaW81JhxB4z/1asInOfY8wn bYFKQ/+HkerUCKgYq22wb+jPM3E59Q2gSUMSS+j0uX4ku7N/oq5PfB3Fij8qJjrTS+H2 5mzDs5CStFCyKXEdeZsrwqSFx++oA/zxSekpNNK6U5FLCQ+AiIlN2Jgj/61Zye8rZyVE FMBQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=eknDXaGa7UNOaPkiprLg27Eu3HvqfKgmsoUCVdfQRL0=; b=LgaywHxCo9JBvszpUgCeFPc7KEpNEZIeWy+uLsa3eHILl9WFtrZi6FQfJlpJF1pDNy gsTEohmizUn8I4ch9sBePE9dZ47wVLrmdIl8RITa7ApQesk33e9byRAt1prOlO5AVR+f YtFWeRmhx19KWcE1OmlCFQztxXS3CWhdOddLz0TCqAS1h+1zlhupIl3vh/EMKqZnb80+ lryIvrdn+Ngd+xS+1kSik77+nw6KPXTAcgpl8Kqc05pRbtMaBwp+EQJm01aMuksaIbbM xOW+dZYbJqmr2h3Eqtj7lnC7zEz3DZqkSc5KLHLKuHRmeGEF7CbCcNQ7jn6YqeyuB4sA fydQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX4vJuGvY8EmJorfN0A9iM4dyuaK9XYa5Zw2W/X+qRax7FgCwd1i ug6dHjGsIJiTGBTts46AvLEjxO2o4tCmUpBSJis= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMZB/WXmMGnKEW64lmZ1aR88NTYNdbuJb/RPxHcvkMGg8z+aT0pOIACy1INMrd+n465tDoJFQj3oxkEIabczjIc= X-Received: by 10.36.10.73 with SMTP id 70mr5395363itw.145.1512083632176; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 15:13:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.134.210 with HTTP; Thu, 30 Nov 2017 15:13:51 -0800 (PST) From: Dieter BSD Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 15:13:51 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Getting PRs fixed [ was: Re: The future of fortune(6) ] To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 23:13:53 -0000 ( Does this need to be cc-ed to arch, or is hackers sufficient? ) Dieter> Ignoring PRs for years and years and years and years... Mark> Please suggest a constructive solution. (This is a serious request.) Given the discussion this has come out of, (demands for censorship due to someone claiming to be offended at something) I suppose I should state that this is not intended to be offensive. Offense, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. I have intentionally left out a few details/specifics in an attempt to avoid or at least reduce offense. Damn it Jim, I'm an engineer, not a motivational speaker! D> Status reports that do not report progress (or lack thereof) D> reducing the number of open PRs. There used to be periodic reports sent to various mailing lists listing open PRs. At some point these stopped coming. Perhaps due to: D> Replacing a working PR system with bugzilla Perhaps these reports could be resurrected? Or made part of the quarterly status reports? Or something? Many PRs were ignored even with the reports, but it shouldn't hurt and might help a little. Recruiting additional developers might help. How to do that? Well, I don't know, but I have noticed that a half-baked attempt at cloning Unix has become very popular despite being very buggy and brain damaged. I tried it a few times with horrible results. I have completely given up on it after it scrambled my data. :-( Anyway it seems to have a lot of developers and corporate support, so they must be doing *something* right. Perhaps someone could study that project and figure out how they are attracting all these developers and corporate support. Perhaps the person we should be recruiting is a recruiter? (Catch 22?) I have observed the foundation receiving significant donations, (like US$1M) and spending money on things that seem unlikely to result in improvements to the system. Perhaps some of this bounty could instead be used to pay developers to fix bugs. I observe a lot of new features being developed, and yet PRs continue to be ignored. I realize that many people consider developing new features to be more fun that fixing old PRs, but the old PRs do need to be fixed. Some of these PRs cause data to be lost, or other hardships. :-( It is especially annoying when a developer cannot be bothered to maintain even their own code, much less anyone else's. Are FreeBSD's developers mature adults or just children? Perhaps there should be a requirement to fix x old PRs to receive a commit bit, and to fix y bugs/year to retain it. I don't especially like this idea, but offer it mainly in hopes that it might inspire someone to think of a way to improve it. I shouldn't have to say this, but when I say fixing a PR I mean just that. Fixing it, not just closing it with some absurd excuse. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Dec 1 10:24:17 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9631ADFAE7C for ; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 10:24:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mremski@comcast.net) Received: from resqmta-ch2-02v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-ch2-02v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "resqmta-po-01v.sys.comcast.net", Issuer "COMODO RSA Organization Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 633C279FA1 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 10:24:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mremski@comcast.net) Received: from resomta-ch2-03v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.99]) by resqmta-ch2-02v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTP id KiUReiCijIdohKiURevtIm; Fri, 01 Dec 2017 10:24:15 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20161114; t=1512123855; bh=RJkTMYUi+OvvzA6m8wqVcZaeGFLE6LH1+zM7I8N121E=; h=Received:Received:Date:From:To:Message-ID:Subject:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=IvndVEPKceZ8a3ZLr/BXuNuzISB8ANzQJxPGHWxNBwzaKGxawLkODpghVAawvLsAi e7r6ocjwkHcRlY4LrgZTt724v8zP4cvXGR1diOpr8mm81T7oxTD7bFz5l82IbE63D3 48z1c+E+zM8amctDoFEc9gpNQ7LlEU+E/WK/Ze/DeliLftGT/Q2YkDE6s6AQrNdDHx vnHT8f6Bf/jM4EM4Q3R9wbvej0dQoOsokOJpwvFBdnwMvy0vcvgQMSJbsu7l+n9hrk OEgX2Qvu39NXAJqGn6ywXRetSu1utdo1IhCRM5eZRPmeyBrF7jw9R5yN1ebwd9gTjO XHZ3dxGsCUKPw== Received: from oxapp-asd-18o.email.comcast.net ([96.115.230.110]) by resomta-ch2-03v.sys.comcast.net with SMTP id KiUReVS3rc9eOKiUReUoBo; Fri, 01 Dec 2017 10:24:15 +0000 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 05:24:14 -0500 (EST) From: Mike Remski To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Dieter BSD Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Message-ID: <1306478885.37537.1512123855297@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: Getting PRs fixed [ was: Re: The future of fortune(6) ] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.8.4-Rev12 X-Originating-IP: ::ffff:75.68.96.21 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfP1YBJUSwyRlVliUfoiZS7zyviyqRvxsPVb/bL5CFi41224TwQvGIyiWqfg5aPczK9pggS71W8tQZlZA3inxf4NfrhcpJuPbFLlVQM/EvDLietIka0/J DdxB88Foxc4jDhhrN4jhG3noYNgyYCbFM8LsIvqFyP1knu2wujnHJexbjs9ytY4wV8JMCX81oEhcd6Ig4noc1bupnXcllqbwPwbKmqjK1d0WCENkZgwLRcj5 vmL3QdDGL5se+ZEpsUxtv1TNplCVyLwFHM776fa89BQ= X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2017 10:24:17 -0000 > On November 30, 2017 at 6:13 PM Dieter BSD wrote: > > > ( Does this need to be cc-ed to arch, or is hackers sufficient? ) > > Dieter> Ignoring PRs for years and years and years and years... > > Mark> Please suggest a constructive solution. (This is a serious request.) > > Given the discussion this has come out of, (demands for censorship > due to someone claiming to be offended at something) I suppose I should > state that this is not intended to be offensive. Offense, like beauty, > is in the eye of the beholder. I have intentionally left out a few > details/specifics in an attempt to avoid or at least reduce offense. > > Damn it Jim, I'm an engineer, not a motivational speaker! > > D> Status reports that do not report progress (or lack thereof) > D> reducing the number of open PRs. > > There used to be periodic reports sent to various mailing lists > listing open PRs. At some point these stopped coming. Perhaps > due to: > > D> Replacing a working PR system with bugzilla > > Perhaps these reports could be resurrected? Or made part of the > quarterly status reports? Or something? Many PRs were ignored > even with the reports, but it shouldn't hurt and might help a little. > > Recruiting additional developers might help. How to do that? > Well, I don't know, but I have noticed that a half-baked > attempt at cloning Unix has become very popular despite being > very buggy and brain damaged. I tried it a few times with > horrible results. I have completely given up on it after it > scrambled my data. :-( Anyway it seems to have a lot of > developers and corporate support, so they must be doing *something* > right. Perhaps someone could study that project and figure out > how they are attracting all these developers and corporate support. > Perhaps the person we should be recruiting is a recruiter? > (Catch 22?) > > I have observed the foundation receiving significant donations, > (like US$1M) and spending money on things that seem unlikely to result > in improvements to the system. Perhaps some of this bounty could > instead be used to pay developers to fix bugs. > > I observe a lot of new features being developed, and yet PRs continue > to be ignored. I realize that many people consider developing new > features to be more fun that fixing old PRs, but the old PRs do need > to be fixed. Some of these PRs cause data to be lost, or other > hardships. :-( It is especially annoying when a developer cannot be > bothered to maintain even their own code, much less anyone else's. > Are FreeBSD's developers mature adults or just children? > Perhaps there should be a requirement to fix x old PRs to receive a > commit bit, and to fix y bugs/year to retain it. I don't especially > like this idea, but offer it mainly in hopes that it might inspire > someone to think of a way to improve it. > > I shouldn't have to say this, but when I say fixing a PR I mean just that. > Fixing it, not just closing it with some absurd excuse. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" Bug databases need to be scrubbbed periodically. Even if it's just to close ones that can't be reproduced or have been fixed by other changes (after due diligence in verifying it so there is no absurd excuse). There are a lot of foks with the ability and desire to help, fixing PRs and sending in patches should be a good way to involved, but that still depends on the owner of a piece to look at a patch, ask questions, get revisions and commit it. If that never happens or the submitter never gets any feedback, it winds up discouraging the new people. Fixing bugs, espeically on !CURRENT, is not glamorous, but necessary. Often actually root causing the bug and patching it gives one a better understanding of the overall system and a sense of satisfaction. Yes, I realize that everyone is a volunteer and has a real life, but at least acknowledging a submission should be done, even if it is automated. This goes both ways: originator of a bug (or patch) needs to be responsive to the FreeBSD committer if they request more data or clarification. My 2 cents as a long time user of FreeBSD as my primary desktop at home. mike From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Dec 1 10:44:37 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E411DDFB5FC; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 10:44:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from srs0=okcb=c5=freebsd.org=kp@codepro.be) Received: from venus.codepro.be (venus.codepro.be [IPv6:2a01:4f8:162:1127::2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.codepro.be", Issuer "Gandi Standard SSL CA 2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AF14D7AABE; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 10:44:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from srs0=okcb=c5=freebsd.org=kp@codepro.be) Received: from [172.16.5.2] (vega.codepro.be [IPv6:2a01:4f8:162:1127::3]) (Authenticated sender: kp) by venus.codepro.be (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 948FC4082A; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 11:44:34 +0100 (CET) From: "Kristof Provost" To: "Mike Remski" Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, "Dieter BSD" , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Getting PRs fixed [ was: Re: The future of fortune(6) ] Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2017 11:44:31 +0100 X-Mailer: MailMate (2.0BETAr6098) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1306478885.37537.1512123855297@connect.xfinity.com> References: <1306478885.37537.1512123855297@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2017 10:44:38 -0000 On 1 Dec 2017, at 11:24, Mike Remski wrote: > Bug databases need to be scrubbbed periodically. Even if it's just to > close ones that can't be reproduced or have been fixed by other > changes (after due diligence in verifying it so there is no absurd > excuse). > > There are a lot of foks with the ability and desire to help, fixing > PRs and sending in patches should be a good way to involved, but that > still depends on the owner of a piece to look at a patch, ask > questions, get revisions and commit it. If that never happens or the > submitter never gets any feedback, it winds up discouraging the new > people. > > Fixing bugs, espeically on !CURRENT, is not glamorous, but necessary. > Often actually root causing the bug and patching it gives one a better > understanding of the overall system and a sense of satisfaction. > > Yes, I realize that everyone is a volunteer and has a real life, but > at least acknowledging a submission should be done, even if it is > automated. This goes both ways: originator of a bug (or patch) needs > to be responsive to the FreeBSD committer if they request more data or > clarification. > Good bug reports are enormously valuable. A bug report with a clear reproduction scenario is vastly more likely to get fixed (quickly). My own experience is that usually I spend more time on trying to reproduce the problem than actually fixing it. Sometimes by orders of magnitude. Patches are fantastic, but a bug report with a simple reproduction scenario is often just as good (and sometimes even better). Regards, Kristof From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Dec 1 11:05:56 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8E47DFBF97 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 11:05:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mremski@comcast.net) Received: from resqmta-po-02v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-po-02v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe16:19:96:114:154:161]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "resqmta-po-01v.sys.comcast.net", Issuer "COMODO RSA Organization Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB1947B7F0 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 11:05:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mremski@comcast.net) Received: from resomta-po-13v.sys.comcast.net ([96.114.154.237]) by resqmta-po-02v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTP id Kj8jeZKlZ0qygKj8leqqlc; Fri, 01 Dec 2017 11:05:55 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20161114; t=1512126355; bh=5KbvQTHHBSw5ZxO73A9N5j6hTwACXr1ik0zFpoO5LJI=; h=Received:Received:Date:From:To:Subject:Message-ID:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=jgcibXqwdXGJCfYAgZK/nOmNLvU8R6t2xcNjOhCdk9H+S5H35F8up7PN5HdtQNSeG lfP6hO1iwaGRHBPKHLxESN83DWdj3HSk70+AtaE3hLMdXS4aIgu07lRea8vdzlxM7d E9zRHaFivFfCTXe6+NkxAbRTS03Oo7XHUzuHLnJAJ7Wd6lsFoKUAWrt1oVKG8zizmA lrHUjFwmMImrMXMNKML0IRsyd/qAr5GwwDHJtVh/fODpODWNrGo2+Hi6Aq9bBwPvZB 2eD6OTiNP/oT6d5vmuZkPTdyuCggZuiOSIGGADwK4+GkjajgSp4DfCdnN72sFfuyth 951qXRRPpMSIg== Received: from trueos-8226.remski.net ([75.68.96.21]) by resomta-po-13v.sys.comcast.net with SMTP id Kj8keKcU9q4RuKj8ke8FCc; Fri, 01 Dec 2017 11:05:55 +0000 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 06:05:53 -0500 From: Mike Remski To: "Kristof Provost" Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Dieter BSD , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Getting PRs fixed [ was: Re: The future of fortune(6) ] Message-ID: <20171201060553.77d2c34b@trueos-8226.remski.net> In-Reply-To: References: <1306478885.37537.1512123855297@connect.xfinity.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.15.0 (GTK+ 2.24.31; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfL+xD4szDUF+UGxUZ4K0Z7t3QwEmVbA2qzWW1Kvv6tgbupGAh1s2DKYyeEkpfkAUVShMHmq3sqgJc+cSyAWF3URBlsPhcRmsUBk/gbBDrrR/wgjsSCf2 sfbqA+wrj+dUF19To/3IcTJ0lwaQGrzzNKVrkRvwurTokrTsRauuJlGqzKeVhQ1CGNPwi5LlJq80aHA04w577GhcHNZnZiOVpxU7vYPrjL8+nCQA/myl01ck 8He6F+rs2l+fV25vAjWGiUhKddMIB41eShkiNcVkPoE= X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2017 11:05:56 -0000 On Fri, 01 Dec 2017 11:44:31 +0100 "Kristof Provost" wrote: > On 1 Dec 2017, at 11:24, Mike Remski wrote: > > Bug databases need to be scrubbbed periodically. Even if it's just > > to close ones that can't be reproduced or have been fixed by other > > changes (after due diligence in verifying it so there is no absurd > > excuse). > > > > There are a lot of foks with the ability and desire to help, fixing > > PRs and sending in patches should be a good way to involved, but > > that still depends on the owner of a piece to look at a patch, ask > > questions, get revisions and commit it. If that never happens or > > the submitter never gets any feedback, it winds up discouraging the > > new people. > > > > Fixing bugs, espeically on !CURRENT, is not glamorous, but > > necessary. Often actually root causing the bug and patching it > > gives one a better understanding of the overall system and a sense > > of satisfaction. > > > > Yes, I realize that everyone is a volunteer and has a real life, > > but at least acknowledging a submission should be done, even if it > > is automated. This goes both ways: originator of a bug (or patch) > > needs to be responsive to the FreeBSD committer if they request > > more data or clarification. > > > Good bug reports are enormously valuable. A bug report with a clear > reproduction scenario is vastly more likely to get fixed (quickly). > My own experience is that usually I spend more time on trying to > reproduce the problem than actually fixing it. Sometimes by orders of > magnitude. > > Patches are fantastic, but a bug report with a simple reproduction > scenario is often just as good (and sometimes even better). > > Regards, > Kristof > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" Apologies for the long text lines in my original, stupid webmail client didn't wrap them. I agree that bugs with steps to reproduce are invaluable. I don't mind getting bug reports at work when QA includes that information without me needing to ask a million questions. Core files are often priceless because you can get a better picture of what happened. Maybe the problem needs to be approached from both sides? Clear documentation on what makes a useful bug report so submitters give developers better info up front and maybe a little bit of prodding to get bugs looked at? mike From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Dec 1 12:15:48 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD5B7DFEF15; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 12:15:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9244C7F882; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 12:15:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.55.3]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB7912739B; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 12:15:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id vB1CFMcI003896 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 1 Dec 2017 12:15:22 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: (from phk@localhost) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id vB1CFLbb003895; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 12:15:21 GMT (envelope-from phk) To: "Kristof Provost" cc: "Mike Remski" , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Dieter BSD , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Getting PRs fixed [ was: Re: The future of fortune(6) ] In-reply-to: From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" References: <1306478885.37537.1512123855297@connect.xfinity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <3893.1512130521.1@critter.freebsd.dk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2017 12:15:21 +0000 Message-ID: <3894.1512130521@critter.freebsd.dk> X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2017 12:15:48 -0000 -------- In message , "Kristof Pr= ovost" writes: >Good bug reports are enormously valuable. A bug report with a clear = >reproduction scenario is vastly more likely to get fixed (quickly). In the Varnish Cache project I have set a very clear policy for bugreports: If they are not actionable (after interacting with the submitter), we close them, even if they are indicative of a bug. A bugreport which says "Crash under circumstances unknown" has no value for the developers. -- = Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe = Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence= . From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Dec 1 13:18:50 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE19AE54D88; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 13:18:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jamie@catflap.org) Received: from donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net (donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net [IPv6:2001:19f0:300:2185:a:dead:bad:faff]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 685761DC7; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 13:18:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jamie@catflap.org) Received: from donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net (donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net [104.207.135.49]) by donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id vB1DIkRH069398; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 13:18:46 GMT (envelope-from jamie@donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net) Received: (from jamie@localhost) by donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id vB1DIk4E069397; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 13:18:46 GMT (envelope-from jamie) From: Jamie Landeg-Jones Message-Id: <201712011318.vB1DIk4E069397@donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net> Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2017 13:18:46 +0000 Organization: Dyslexic Fish To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, dieterbsd@gmail.com Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Getting PRs fixed References: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Heirloom mailx 12.4 7/29/08 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net [104.207.135.49]); Fri, 01 Dec 2017 13:18:46 +0000 (GMT) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2017 13:18:50 -0000 Dieter BSD wrote: > Dieter> Ignoring PRs for years and years and years and years... > > Mark> Please suggest a constructive solution. (This is a serious request.) > Recruiting additional developers might help. How to do that? I've been using FreeBSD both professionally and personally since 2.2.7-RELEASE and I've fixed various bugs over the years, but a year or so ago, I got fed up with the general indifference these last few years. I hate to say it, but I've now scripted all my systems to auto-patch new source with my own collection of bug fixes. Some I've submitted as PR's, some (especially the lesser important ones) I haven't. But now it means my fixes are automated for me without having to rely on upstream responding. I also have a few "is this really intended?" questions that were simply ignored. I'm not going to push them just in case the changes were intentional, and my pushing ends up annoying someone whose time I've wasted. But still, they are changes that break POLA and aren't documented, so, *shrug* My impulsive reaction to finding issues, however small, was to try and fix them, and report them. Now it's fix them, and automate the fixes to my systems. If I found a potential vulnerability I'd report it, but for the other stuff... maybe, if I have time, but if it's going to be ignored, why bother?, especially as it's not even possible to email PR's now... Requiring firing up a web browser, downloading whatever patch from the server to the desktop just to submit it on a form. You can't even do it through w3m/links/lynx! I don't want this to sound like an attack on any one in particular, or indeed, the project general. I'm most grateful to everyone, and there are many very dilligent people who I know would respond if I emailed them directly (but I'm not going to interrupt them like that) Still, the more often things are ignored, and the more people arbitarily remove stuff without warning, the less approchable the project seems, and the less likely it is that new volunteers will appear.. (even if you don't want a discussion, how about at least an announcement before the fact?) Cheers, Jamie From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Dec 1 14:47:02 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 200E1E57E26; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 14:47:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rebecca@bluestop.org) Received: from muon.bluestop.org (muon.bluestop.org [IPv6:2605:7700:0:8:1:0:4a32:3323]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0317863F47; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 14:47:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rebecca@bluestop.org) Received: from muon.bluestop.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by muon.bluestop.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F112283F4A; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 14:46:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from muon.bluestop.org ([127.0.0.1]) by muon.bluestop.org (muon.bluestop.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id uUBq_ptxzIIO; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 14:46:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.0.10.120] (c-73-131-237-119.hsd1.ut.comcast.net [73.131.237.119]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by muon.bluestop.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 14:46:53 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: Getting PRs fixed From: Rebecca Cran X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (15B202) In-Reply-To: <201712011318.vB1DIk4E069397@donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net> Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 07:46:51 -0700 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, dieterbsd@gmail.com, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <201712011318.vB1DIk4E069397@donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net> To: Jamie Landeg-Jones X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2017 14:47:02 -0000 > On Dec 1, 2017, at 6:18 AM, Jamie Landeg-Jones wrote: >=20 > I've been using FreeBSD both professionally and personally since > 2.2.7-RELEASE and I've fixed various bugs over the years, but a year or > so ago, I got fed up with the general indifference these last few years. I was just thinking about getting back into bug-busting for FreeBSD: a few y= ears ago when we were using GNATS we had a team that did triage, follow-ups e= tc. that made some progress. Was that effort wound-down with the move to Bug= zilla, or is the team still active? =E2=80=94=20 Rebecca Cran (brucec@)= From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Dec 1 15:05:42 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2256E5D4E4; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 15:05:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dieterbsd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io0-x241.google.com (mail-io0-x241.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE6AB64A37; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 15:05:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dieterbsd@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io0-x241.google.com with SMTP id s19so11554369ioa.1; Fri, 01 Dec 2017 07:05:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=uSSSV6UZqQsy6Www5/DR51+3bolsP6pBeDdvpnQ8m4c=; b=YdPnMZh3fLnhmE6o1NjKiresMuAcHeJvAADj/AFFCqWVsSqLX8rzB0eXbWZuwUBW6b iGXPu9kegMe4/P+4gDHR7ysReRuoiYS2n/t7RNNXKGAPtM4gDFd/uVW+RfqpuLnkba1p ifScczJBQER44KjaPy7QiX2x9exrMUtZs7AOZ0aReV+1ExGahHgmY/F3rHZ563T6q3qo eerJWRH1cmtBbvooL8oFPzaXVx+77aVrtkJis6cwl5xwdxYXVkdUV5WNqz7S7pKqn2UU gTuQa+k8Qe7aZshqSTg+NhZoejHIboSsSS+ySQnXswi435QyhunI0i8NQhCSBOKTnYXF edHQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=uSSSV6UZqQsy6Www5/DR51+3bolsP6pBeDdvpnQ8m4c=; b=cbHnGb30zKQ0j2mUPGYAFDxD4QNk7w+b3IXwK4UWbkAZynkQOFLeakVhzGLjSrSuxm ZtWn46/femKbxvI0CAxvaDcwTuEQXLKqkZ4seppNH+pTqoq5xiBdQaB8H622NGug71Eo SNNleQmfbYozNolxZZplngArJY0HEOpahGh6PdGeoKsQEXaN0Q4XrAmIHtVW5usfsoLe eG7BxaWe5EyNlnSSP2rUTtfia/JbTAifeUCcuKHCHMQJxoW1wt+Ef9rtGDbQeBCYEMXs sdvau521e9e5uSWKXHDb+BAhKMGNBcQ24uwxug8IVkgRA1/jBx/lU+QLwIjq6U7iMp0f LH7g== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX7S2tKHsFfDT8/ruStiMSGCXS2WGQTmJBPWAOxM6alGtHoQXsJL aSs6OXCmOq9o87+e0ESXfMbGwDtDpB1ZxzsOYNA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMbCUNRkDEzxvRryv+pk0/ETZ9gKolybuGBJ1b1ZKb4u6RdEpIIUCKzcc8puBXJmwxiRA8nWiOvdOSxwYWtyP1s= X-Received: by 10.107.132.207 with SMTP id o76mr13433789ioi.243.1512140741739; Fri, 01 Dec 2017 07:05:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.134.210 with HTTP; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 07:05:41 -0800 (PST) From: Dieter BSD Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 07:05:41 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Getting PRs fixed To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2017 15:05:43 -0000 Thought of another idea. When new people write in, asking what they should work on, they receive a variety of suggestions. I've seen quite a few of these over the years. I have NEVER seen anyone suggest that they look at the open PRs and work on fixing them. Fixing open PRs should be the first, and probably only, suggestion. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Dec 1 16:25:51 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABDD1E5EDA8; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 16:25:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsd-lists@BSDforge.com) Received: from udns.ultimatedns.net (static-24-113-41-81.wavecable.com [24.113.41.81]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A92266CDF; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 16:25:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsd-lists@BSDforge.com) Received: from udns.ultimatedns.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by udns.ultimatedns.net (8.14.9/8.14.9) with ESMTP id vB1GQRAq064366; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 08:26:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bsd-lists@BSDforge.com) X-Mailer: UDNSMS MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: , In-Reply-To: From: "Chris H" Reply-To: bsd-lists@BSDforge.com To: "Dieter BSD" Subject: Re: Getting PRs fixed Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2017 08:26:33 -0800 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2017 16:25:51 -0000 On Fri, 1 Dec 2017 07:05:41 -0800 "Dieter BSD" said > Thought of another idea=2E When new people write in, asking > what they should work on, they receive a variety of suggestions=2E > I've seen quite a few of these over the years=2E I have NEVER seen > anyone suggest that they look at the open PRs and work on fixing them=2E =2E=2E=2Eand yet seems the *most obvious* reply=2E :) >=20 > Fixing open PRs should be the first, and probably only, suggestion=2E Indeed! :) --Chris From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Dec 1 16:28:56 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DF2BE5EFF3; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 16:28:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-it0-x229.google.com (mail-it0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C973867025; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 16:28:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-it0-x229.google.com with SMTP id r6so3036332itr.3; Fri, 01 Dec 2017 08:28:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=sEYPllwoQaN9IR/rmhCZ7iW0s4oQBXwUingh+u8dihM=; b=IjK75wkzqxClQ3DgIE78wnvDaDeMKlNlWPZpkQT4xuuCbeHTdTiSOEdBcxFDwvqBMq 8LROVYOXfYrzWwQlC7nE4bRzuDn289VwynmwhLQsEsfDzfdLfVTgYIFkqWKjVpgHQygl mAfGKg8tbCHOWe9NqOGkQC519slhPUBO+qx467NdlmHqy8opOWdaOPk076g9XNN2w59I 6R+/K36qAWUFw6mgE8sQz79rByghzcs07EOhJRP6H7q+Hm9TwtykNXY1+/UrtvuqGjQE plWZgcRrjWOc+cpHvMZLfPhH7rYJm6sebT4KAXD2oS20AYevyjaDoEfhEMALsNvNGKeZ h5Rw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=sEYPllwoQaN9IR/rmhCZ7iW0s4oQBXwUingh+u8dihM=; b=bbBDRBo1RtDM9qGfAKZcyXDXlNhg0tMcR5AE5GQL2uFUzqhgi+XD9Let2uFmPu4whv WwYWXmrwQXlFbi3fGbj21vcUYqUkhWRfOziV0AJqULmiGKKYLTg5SzzsrlBnz3LWCA5r 3ocJj5JNho93CNha4KN0zL/RD4+jadaZC1qRGDRPNoRTUuss7QSGv+w76uH5KTAi58AT 0ya9kaSOqydfDecg9HeR65Cl5A4t6N7Nb/+/vBlPGMz9S71woDzuNvt3bBJA4KIVWtnu E6h6tDunRPZWQT8wgrGvv9qWGN+XSC8vAyrEqmBOZ3RNN/4Kaq9QQhg7xmE0iWquOEg3 +ZhA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mLAo53SCEWukFgZt3uDriFm2zgAnBnje139M639Mu472h82oEHD Gf5VezJb+F1KPwEpxHb9bhLohMPNze1KGj0FpVk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMbyjl8g8i8yRP9aonm0OREYpB53clsQPlDx8juZmToZz4YcHA1S/96O4Mxeb2qFHAmBW3lpmsLMNhA1Ld+ZK2s= X-Received: by 10.36.43.211 with SMTP id h202mr2482971ita.125.1512145735223; Fri, 01 Dec 2017 08:28:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.36.105.3 with HTTP; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 08:28:54 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 11:28:54 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Getting PRs fixed To: Dieter BSD Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2017 16:28:56 -0000 On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Dieter BSD wrote: > Thought of another idea. When new people write in, asking > what they should work on, they receive a variety of suggestions. > I've seen quite a few of these over the years. I have NEVER seen > anyone suggest that they look at the open PRs and work on fixing them. > > Fixing open PRs should be the first, and probably only, suggestion. > Almost everyone who suggests anything at all suggests doing just that! -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Dec 1 18:29:02 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44C38E67125; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 18:29:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hiren@strugglingcoder.info) Received: from mail.strugglingcoder.info (strugglingcoder.info [104.236.146.68]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D3596B7C1; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 18:29:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hiren@strugglingcoder.info) Received: from localhost (unknown [10.1.1.3]) (Authenticated sender: hiren@strugglingcoder.info) by mail.strugglingcoder.info (Postfix) with ESMTPA id A69221753C; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 10:22:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 10:22:50 -0800 From: hiren panchasara To: Rebecca Cran Cc: Jamie Landeg-Jones , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, dieterbsd@gmail.com, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Getting PRs fixed Message-ID: <20171201182250.GC63455@strugglingcoder.info> References: <201712011318.vB1DIk4E069397@donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="hOcCNbCCxyk/YU74" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2017 18:29:02 -0000 --hOcCNbCCxyk/YU74 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 12/01/17 at 07:46P, Rebecca Cran wrote: >=20 > > On Dec 1, 2017, at 6:18 AM, Jamie Landeg-Jones wrot= e: > >=20 > > I've been using FreeBSD both professionally and personally since > > 2.2.7-RELEASE and I've fixed various bugs over the years, but a year or > > so ago, I got fed up with the general indifference these last few years. >=20 > I was just thinking about getting back into bug-busting for FreeBSD: a fe= w years ago when we were using GNATS we had a team that did triage, follow-= ups etc. that made some progress. Was that effort wound-down with the move = to Bugzilla, or is the team still active? > https://www.freebsd.org/administration.html#t-bugmeister And yes, they'd love some help. Cheers, Hiren --hOcCNbCCxyk/YU74 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQF8BAABCgBmBQJaIZ33XxSAAAAAAC4AKGlzc3Vlci1mcHJAbm90YXRpb25zLm9w ZW5wZ3AuZmlmdGhob3JzZW1hbi5uZXRBNEUyMEZBMUQ4Nzg4RjNGMTdFNjZGMDI4 QjkyNTBFMTU2M0VERkU1AAoJEIuSUOFWPt/lWxQIAIaZsVAi2pk03Rof13CbVB/k tqxBzidkYN7uo++5Cfr7rAsQBQArbfWYk+MCClUFNIvm6hOyBIveMhOeAmVyL+DS qOq44HNAg3kdjX2K50xkEQM252UC/s1/folEGMgj8Zlvdweytgw0EniaFD/DK+i6 qZYY9APP3gvosMGPxD0UgPaQdQ19zR958fQDPB6qQYa+HnHY7Hgfbve+7tZ5HTZE 6a1Zfs17EFC4JIti6+du/ckvuUNvsML1wX/jKOJ1APji834KHostbh5B0qDEofFf dyRb0EHTbF2Ng86XFjTG1e2X3IvOps9ld34V79fY6iF4V60MciZ6nHacA4ND66s= =k/yu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --hOcCNbCCxyk/YU74-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Dec 1 18:58:56 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AE75E67CFC; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 18:58:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rebecca@bluestop.org) Received: from muon.bluestop.org (muon.bluestop.org [74.50.51.35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 078B56C8C4; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 18:58:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rebecca@bluestop.org) Received: from muon.bluestop.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by muon.bluestop.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1EC1886C6; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 18:58:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from muon.bluestop.org ([127.0.0.1]) by muon.bluestop.org (muon.bluestop.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id SxIMIF_6Ltlj; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 18:58:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.0.10.120] (c-73-131-237-119.hsd1.ut.comcast.net [73.131.237.119]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by muon.bluestop.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 18:58:53 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: Getting PRs fixed From: Rebecca Cran X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (15B202) In-Reply-To: <20171201182250.GC63455@strugglingcoder.info> Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 11:58:52 -0700 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Jamie Landeg-Jones , dieterbsd@gmail.com, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <93CA327B-4792-4A7D-97CF-33B299C2A8B4@bluestop.org> References: <201712011318.vB1DIk4E069397@donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net> <20171201182250.GC63455@strugglingcoder.info> To: hiren panchasara X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2017 18:58:56 -0000 > On Dec 1, 2017, at 11:22 AM, hiren panchasara = wrote: >=20 > https://www.freebsd.org/administration.html#t-bugmeister > And yes, they'd love some help. Oh, great, thanks! I might see if I can get the FreeBSD-bugbusters ml active= again too, since it seems to have been just collecting spam for a while. =E2=80=94=20 Rebecca=