From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Jul 1 03:42:57 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3FFEFE6B8A for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2018 03:42:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68679707ED for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2018 03:42:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 24B90FE6B89; Sun, 1 Jul 2018 03:42:56 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2E5AFE6B88 for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2018 03:42:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: from mail-yw0-x234.google.com (mail-yw0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 87B40707EC for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2018 03:42:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: by mail-yw0-x234.google.com with SMTP id j68-v6so1927697ywg.1 for ; Sat, 30 Jun 2018 20:42:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=eitanadler.com; s=0xdeadbeef; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=I/SPHoKZ4HEQe9Qh2caC0kRfUMApTztQKqTiQEqM7P0=; b=Nu+BIDPwTj6GmARhTfk9oITCoHegKR/QQ0aWEn2ZzXqd7U+u9U4jQRZC83qerme1fg zvwzuygMSxZd+44ANXZEdo/XZT+qg0t8yf+IQx6T5/trt22glAmakwy5S38M84C5x+f5 +tqar9/fNWcQE3TlC/D5JEFjIxCbysyxqmaw0= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=I/SPHoKZ4HEQe9Qh2caC0kRfUMApTztQKqTiQEqM7P0=; b=U9U1X3roR2R5m7ybJGxPfQQ2ZDvsXMvY0YGfH9Swcqtg8+P/8pKPljqRU6WY2fo4R8 2pkEapi7dnADQgbqa46h3r3IzJc1MZR9536iyF91oyq9hDJGsUTTZL5jq2+KnadafTVX /kgqeoGjKcnyomAVuDTH8C2DMVNwAT2HIhEg2z80NmmBNIXwC3/v1dZMzNfi0uiA47ch XYI5ikKlyW8OJnFQ/x4gUuX2zQdDoa6bgefe621ry1N0O4+dDzykDrzfPKrRB32NYvK+ vpjLjdGESHmvnL/VL3S0IO+i6AiKyCQa1KM+H9L9kA4U41Yu8u0zvHeg9DogoAabqsiO VZ2g== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E1AqkbMJvY94fYDc0xSmzF+z+aeDd+jBCFCcGWKj67Rv6iPxYU8 f7O1rCLHse1qSkoZmmT8aCLED7zSoB2vUleBkYGPeg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpc09HrUEvHpkB2zxenSmSIvNDSTxEf4Rh3mKC3pLvZAD+/h4dpnN0r8yZ+R3RBI22gmZim5NnL/Q1pic9W0HOY= X-Received: by 2002:a81:2c56:: with SMTP id s83-v6mr10148173yws.387.1530416574783; Sat, 30 Jun 2018 20:42:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a25:870e:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sat, 30 Jun 2018 20:42:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <27EE2F1E-245C-4D97-97DE-65E9DA133AF1@dons.net.au> References: <20180624121412.GY2430@kib.kiev.ua> <27EE2F1E-245C-4D97-97DE-65E9DA133AF1@dons.net.au> From: Eitan Adler Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 20:42:24 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: What to do about rcmdsh(3) ? To: "O'Connor, Daniel" Cc: Konstantin Belousov , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2018 03:42:57 -0000 On 26 June 2018 at 23:45, O'Connor, Daniel wrote: > > >> On 27 Jun 2018, at 13:01, Eitan Adler wrote: >> >> On 24 June 2018 at 05:14, Konstantin Belousov wrote: >>> On Sun, Jun 24, 2018 at 03:32:13AM -0700, Eitan Adler wrote: >>>> Now that the rcmds are removed from base, it opens a question about >>>> what to do with rcmdsh(3). >>>> This is documented as >>>> rcmdsh ??? return a stream to a remote command without superuser >>>> And is implemented as a rather simple wrapper of getaddrinfo and exec. >>>> >>>> This isn't something I'd imagine we'd add to libc now-a-days and is >>>> currently broken by default (due to defaulting to _PATH_RSH) >>>> >>>> I'm not sure there is much value in keeping this function around. I >>>> did a rather naive search for uses of this function in ports and >>>> couldn't find any. I'm preparing a more comprehensive patch for an >>>> exp-run. >>> There is a huge value in keeping ABI compatibility. The symbol must be kept. >>> You may remove default version for the symbol if you are so inclined. >> >> I'm new at this. How does one do that? > > You could just leave the call, I assume it will fail with an error if rsh isn't in the path. It will fail unconditionally since the call looks explicitly for /bin/rsh. Is it wrong to change the implementation to use PATH?I have not looked closely, but are there security implications to trusting the environment? -- Eitan Adler From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Jul 1 08:06:14 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2D44FDDACF for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2018 08:06:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from darius@dons.net.au) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5671084C74 for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2018 08:06:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from darius@dons.net.au) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 189ACFDDACE; Sun, 1 Jul 2018 08:06:14 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01540FDDACC for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2018 08:06:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from darius@dons.net.au) Received: from ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net (ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net [150.101.137.133]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E2A584C73 for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2018 08:06:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from darius@dons.net.au) Received: from ppp121-45-48-103.bras2.adl4.internode.on.net (HELO midget.dons.net.au) ([121.45.48.103]) by ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 01 Jul 2018 17:30:58 +0930 Received: from midget.dons.net.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by midget.dons.net.au (8.15.1/8.14.9) with ESMTPS id w6180f1X077153 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2018 17:30:54 +0930 (ACST) (envelope-from darius@dons.net.au) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by midget.dons.net.au (8.15.1/8.14.9/Submit) id w617e9x8061123 for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2018 17:10:09 +0930 (ACST) (envelope-from darius@dons.net.au) X-Authentication-Warning: midget.dons.net.au: mailnull set sender to using -f Received: from [10.0.2.26] ([10.0.2.26]) by ns.dons.net.au (envelope-sender ) (MIMEDefang) with ESMTP id w617e3Gj060487; Sun, 01 Jul 2018 17:10:09 +0930 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.4 \(3445.8.2\)) Subject: Re: What to do about rcmdsh(3) ? From: "O'Connor, Daniel" In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2018 17:10:02 +0930 Cc: Konstantin Belousov , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6445FBC9-98CF-4AD7-AAB6-5091E1445A52@dons.net.au> References: <20180624121412.GY2430@kib.kiev.ua> <27EE2F1E-245C-4D97-97DE-65E9DA133AF1@dons.net.au> To: Eitan Adler X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.8.2) X-Spam-Score: -1 () No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 on 10.0.2.1 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2018 08:06:15 -0000 > On 1 Jul 2018, at 13:12, Eitan Adler wrote: >> You could just leave the call, I assume it will fail with an error if = rsh isn't in the path. >=20 > It will fail unconditionally since the call looks explicitly for > /bin/rsh. Is it wrong to change the implementation to use PATH?I have > not looked closely, but are there security implications to trusting > the environment? Hmm I see.. I think it could still be OK if the hypothetical rsh port had an option = to add a symlink to /bin. -- Daniel O'Connor "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Jul 2 13:45:54 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 993501029C79 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 13:45:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sebastian.huber@embedded-brains.de) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EFFB895DF for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 13:45:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sebastian.huber@embedded-brains.de) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id CC45F1029C77; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 13:45:53 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9C1B1029C76 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 13:45:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sebastian.huber@embedded-brains.de) Received: from dedi548.your-server.de (dedi548.your-server.de [85.10.215.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C55B895DB; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 13:45:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sebastian.huber@embedded-brains.de) Received: from [78.46.172.2] (helo=sslproxy05.your-server.de) by dedi548.your-server.de with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.85_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fZz9D-0001lh-Fo; Mon, 02 Jul 2018 15:45:43 +0200 Received: from [82.135.62.35] (helo=mail.embedded-brains.de) by sslproxy05.your-server.de with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1fZz9D-000SkT-2H; Mon, 02 Jul 2018 15:45:43 +0200 Received: from localhost (localhost.localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.embedded-brains.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id B69F62A167D; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 15:46:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail.embedded-brains.de ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.eb.localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id OBBBNwLn3nzw; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 15:46:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.embedded-brains.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 127482A167F; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 15:46:20 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.eb.localhost Received: from mail.embedded-brains.de ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.eb.localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id gDOqrpg2Kjcs; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 15:46:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.96.149] (unknown [192.168.96.149]) by mail.embedded-brains.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BB1812A167D; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 15:46:19 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: C++ in the kernel? To: Eitan Adler , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , David Chisnall , Justin Hibbits , Maxim Sobolev References: From: Sebastian Huber Message-ID: <029cb17d-7848-5dbe-f9c9-67830156780d@embedded-brains.de> Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 15:45:40 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Authenticated-Sender: smtp-embedded@poldinet.de X-Virus-Scanned: Clear (ClamAV 0.100.0/24716/Mon Jul 2 14:45:27 2018) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 13:45:54 -0000 Hello, I know some users which wrote network interface drivers in C++ using the=20 FreeBSD network stack ported to the real-time operating system RTEMS=20 (libbsd). Some header files are not very C++ friendly, e.g. https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-hackers/2014-September/046091= .html --=20 Sebastian Huber, embedded brains GmbH Address : Dornierstr. 4, D-82178 Puchheim, Germany Phone : +49 89 189 47 41-16 Fax : +49 89 189 47 41-09 E-Mail : sebastian.huber@embedded-brains.de PGP : Public key available on request. Diese Nachricht ist keine gesch=C3=A4ftliche Mitteilung im Sinne des EHUG= . From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Jul 3 03:30:57 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 609E3FF4042 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 03:30:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E73328889D for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 03:30:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id AB62EFF4040; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 03:30:56 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86C14FF403F for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 03:30:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from smtp-out-so.shaw.ca (smtp-out-so.shaw.ca [64.59.136.139]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 189FE88899 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 03:30:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.67.125.17]) by shaw.ca with ESMTPA id aC1dfWXZXTecGaC1efKSLX; Mon, 02 Jul 2018 21:30:48 -0600 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=UvJNyd4B c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:117 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=R9QF1RCXAYgA:10 a=xfDLHkLGAAAA:8 a=Oa9OBgwLAAAA:8 a=uyavkMrdAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=RtzgwF2Gz3ffJ8n7fjMA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=f5ImID1ArREA:10 a=IfaqVvZgccqrtc8gcwf2:22 a=O203EvbIiCD62VF_osZo:22 a=j2_G595jqNHTxQgNwHU2:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy [10.1.1.91]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0BED51BE; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 20:30:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w633UfOY087899; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 20:30:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from slippy (cy@localhost) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id w633Uchd087857; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 20:30:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Message-Id: <201807030330.w633Uchd087857@slippy.cwsent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: slippy.cwsent.com: cy owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.8.0 04/21/2012 with nmh-1.7.1 Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: Eitan Adler cc: "O'Connor, Daniel" , Konstantin Belousov , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: What to do about rcmdsh(3) ? In-Reply-To: Message from Eitan Adler of "Sat, 30 Jun 2018 20:42:24 -0700." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 20:30:38 -0700 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfHTWuflabNuN8G8e88YvzTB3UwXU61cB2XZgb+4lgHcR2JXISSUhqsoZYIswymioD3rZQonQoyrHBIm6NLP4d7vdGup8NfCH4CkVSNzCTNTsBn4sfGJu RM4gV3Ot7oLcwawaK0GDQcdOSXVPs5KjCjg+w/bLTdtfM4smJNL73vAAfuEsNbbv1+AeUMW6BDLAFdcjULW9wZRstgzNmzntBugG4o0d7E1g1aZdjoL4GATh w/wfeRj3Yppp9iCAIqEv68E7RBgymETZrZE3FXQJggk= X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 03:30:57 -0000 In message , Eitan Adler writes: > On 26 June 2018 at 23:45, O'Connor, Daniel wrote: > > > > > >> On 27 Jun 2018, at 13:01, Eitan Adler wrote: > >> > >> On 24 June 2018 at 05:14, Konstantin Belousov wrote: > >>> On Sun, Jun 24, 2018 at 03:32:13AM -0700, Eitan Adler wrote: > >>>> Now that the rcmds are removed from base, it opens a question about > >>>> what to do with rcmdsh(3). > >>>> This is documented as > >>>> rcmdsh ??? return a stream to a remote command without superuser > >>>> And is implemented as a rather simple wrapper of getaddrinfo and exec. > >>>> > >>>> This isn't something I'd imagine we'd add to libc now-a-days and is > >>>> currently broken by default (due to defaulting to _PATH_RSH) > >>>> > >>>> I'm not sure there is much value in keeping this function around. I > >>>> did a rather naive search for uses of this function in ports and > >>>> couldn't find any. I'm preparing a more comprehensive patch for an > >>>> exp-run. > >>> There is a huge value in keeping ABI compatibility. The symbol must be k > ept. > >>> You may remove default version for the symbol if you are so inclined. > >> > >> I'm new at this. How does one do that? > > > > You could just leave the call, I assume it will fail with an error if rsh i > sn't in the path. > > It will fail unconditionally since the call looks explicitly for > /bin/rsh. Is it wrong to change the implementation to use PATH?I have > not looked closely, but are there security implications to trusting > the environment? If uid == 0, yes. To safely ensure that a setuid (root or otherwise) program cannot be tricked into running some other application than /bin/rsh, IMO the safest option might be to do what the kernel does when executing init at boot. That is, select it from colon separated list. We can default to /usr/local/bin/rsh with a src.conf option. I don't believe rcmdsh() is POSIX or SPEC 1170, so it could default to /usr/bin/ssh instead. Personally, IMO, I think rcmdsh() is too much trouble for what it's worth. It should be removed. Do we have an idea of how many applications removing this function might impact? I'm willing to bet very few. -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Jul 3 04:59:16 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FBEFFFA780 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 04:59:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4AED8BB66 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 04:59:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 6BA64FFA77B; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 04:59:15 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58A90FFA77A for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 04:59:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: from mail-yb0-x22d.google.com (mail-yb0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c09::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4C0B8BB64 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 04:59:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: by mail-yb0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id r3-v6so244214ybo.4 for ; Mon, 02 Jul 2018 21:59:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=eitanadler.com; s=0xdeadbeef; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=4SHewrWmOZOFCg8p74RTW/wOHzElYVbct3uOmFGaEXk=; b=C7bjyibNLzZeuDFThJ0k3P2ZwcolECyJ/4L5I8oatmJVSJLqZ4BtCydbV/At813cVU LPkZK5WbOXPn/XzZwTlm4qixQugy4p94Xy/oj7AsIUgGFY9f0LYCxO1UXHTg6LaPTVCl o4VYCljg75UrdHD+WJPa+qlCgk5gRiW9QmrCI= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=4SHewrWmOZOFCg8p74RTW/wOHzElYVbct3uOmFGaEXk=; b=aFb2F8PZ9qigw+rmL6YN4CnCyi/ut/9WwrcpmX+3ipCgeW2rKqyk3WVBnqh9H3Mini augiYCT0Qe/VkzpZxJYFk74wqUXtFOKFbxPdTjv+qH9qkzqSEBnyrFIlxxAEaTThZ6+h NJiYv1xEJftxw0lhPuIInln5ycHxZCmr4oCSH5AcLz+BDHcremYfOqJiag/qwvuUVHn5 sgAUIsOkAsdFc91tr31GT5XyV0S+mthcPG6/hKFwqvZLQQPnkcjSFyxHjlargsWRNuUC L9HXXvinu3veBhA8nzNo6Nt8X7wScLySus5DvIvwdOT9MxoNkJrBWu23GjtziwvXGqEw mdWQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E2QriE/2AvaBJNEmH82xEKsiEJSDeQZ0otzU/dAD6sTlZdl/rVd bU70ovLz1m2RGgzbjdeGQsZKkAniLUPsDCOj5fBEbA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADUXVKKFcLm9c/c/d8jfWd2v01FA15NEvjx3hG3XzZADdE2t2Rc0L9OMm50QgevLvs7KQWIf2PjjsxHHKx00L17dpeQ= X-Received: by 2002:a25:730c:: with SMTP id o12-v6mr13864453ybc.69.1530593954069; Mon, 02 Jul 2018 21:59:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a25:870e:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 21:58:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Eitan Adler Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 21:58:43 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: xstr, mkstr To: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 04:59:16 -0000 On 24 June 2018 at 02:51, Eitan Adler wrote: > Why are these tools in base? As far as I could tell these tools are > un-used in the build process and otherwise specialized tools. Is there > any reason we still have them in the toolchain or in base? Anyone? They don't cause acute problems, but having specialized and specific tools like this don't seem like they belong. -- Eitan Adler From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Jul 3 09:33:50 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BF18102EE37 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 09:33:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gljennjohn@gmail.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B380176E84 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 09:33:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gljennjohn@gmail.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 72BFF102EE36; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 09:33:49 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DEBF102EE35 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 09:33:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gljennjohn@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wr0-x236.google.com (mail-wr0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B6B6876E83 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 09:33:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gljennjohn@gmail.com) Received: by mail-wr0-x236.google.com with SMTP id h10-v6so1218800wrq.8 for ; Tue, 03 Jul 2018 02:33:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=3eplkpB/vxMoBZVcl9AkIbk2y1OSejhciyavlj0Zl24=; b=az8/c9f/MpMVAkniacsQA7KwFyW7Xlpiy1KJHaszQCKN5qVBG5u8Lx5XlfW/Eq9LGQ ENhFrFLGFfhrhbzXuiJ2lsglbGuofZysT67pGbZPF/H2TNraMr31a23Ex/wxYFDePJrA /gJVsOT7Y8cOkX+PrRr9FxWe4WdbnpqcD6Zny8ZOOwrM5MwaBX7JrdvZ2gkXGD0pQKqi jvlEIW4KKkyfU9x3vrZrFZxxOyLah29aIEzwnMC9L0TYAP/Fp94hgJwFaSXMFELaBY/A hY0o1kCeRO8p2m0Pf0QMx4ZX//5mrDmZPxzUTX9xbslQEImOCMF2nNBa3DWiuPUuZMxe h4jg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=3eplkpB/vxMoBZVcl9AkIbk2y1OSejhciyavlj0Zl24=; b=OnyP+FFWXfemTAxPDnrgAT2SNidbx/N//Ip0G3jB+3T7EKZsN4uw19SIk8I/snRw4O 0GCeeDg3NpMllwegpEYcatvnUGF5CKl66vAoXG+NS++eUq0i8uELtprzO7JVvRcqaPYy NjGW0CuN2oGtPOKQYZfptC7qlwO7YJDJU+k+TGl9qYJSNA951EGuyVMMtWmWB0Ule4sK ZBhealbSoo341P67wDQzXW2k7w/ukxs/8cjJd1w5MZ12quVVve5PZEXa+ySDIfICFU3c ARx2fQ08GGY4GjbkOs0URswI9Q02e6RvQupok52xw3znGFHTAlHHvtwRgY37fkr00M3z 9Q/w== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E2xDSsLxWsZ9ETxbjOPR6fZ5JA2e7n+/Jk+PpwgDgl5oFYnArJX L09PhKikNRnwJvDlguwCVtoc3g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpcpqdprTk6bM1fbyKsAWOJ9FpHcIjvFoUWo8rHyMBj2SIz7bjM0BkUWSM2JnlIim8qm0Ar+3A== X-Received: by 2002:adf:9a0b:: with SMTP id z11-v6mr21494638wrb.47.1530610427743; Tue, 03 Jul 2018 02:33:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ernst.home (pD9E239C2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de. [217.226.57.194]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j131-v6sm1160190wmb.25.2018.07.03.02.33.46 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Tue, 03 Jul 2018 02:33:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 11:33:45 +0200 From: Gary Jennejohn To: Eitan Adler Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: xstr, mkstr Message-ID: <20180703113345.4db68896@ernst.home> In-Reply-To: References: Reply-To: gljennjohn@gmail.com X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.16.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 09:33:50 -0000 On Mon, 2 Jul 2018 21:58:43 -0700 Eitan Adler wrote: > On 24 June 2018 at 02:51, Eitan Adler wrote: > > Why are these tools in base? As far as I could tell these tools are > > un-used in the build process and otherwise specialized tools. Is there > > any reason we still have them in the toolchain or in base? > > Anyone? They don't cause acute problems, but having specialized and > specific tools like this don't seem like they belong. > Reading the man pages it appears that these are old baggage left over from the PDP/VAX legacy of BSD. Their whole prupose was to reduce the memory consumed by strings in binaries on machines with little RAM. In fact, the BUGS section of mkstr(1) makes this very clear. xstr is actually used in /usr/src/contrib/bmake/mk/prog.mk. I can't tell whether this file is ever invoked. It's commented out in some other makefiles. There's a test for mkstr in /usr/src/contrib/netbsd-tests/lib/libc/regex/t_exhaust.c. Both are in /usr/src/usr.sbin/crunch/examples/really-big.conf. -- Gary Jennejohn From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Jul 3 14:45:32 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23FDF102658B for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 14:45:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1FC2845B2 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 14:45:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 5D6A51026588; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 14:45:31 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B0D91026587 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 14:45:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BEBE8845AF for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 14:45:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id w63EjJ5g038597; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 07:45:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id w63EjJmF038596; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 07:45:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <201807031445.w63EjJmF038596@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: xstr, mkstr In-Reply-To: To: Eitan Adler Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 07:45:19 -0700 (PDT) CC: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 14:45:32 -0000 > On 24 June 2018 at 02:51, Eitan Adler wrote: > > Why are these tools in base? As far as I could tell these tools are > > un-used in the build process and otherwise specialized tools. Is there > > any reason we still have them in the toolchain or in base? > > Anyone? They don't cause acute problems, but having specialized and > specific tools like this don't seem like they belong. Since when was any of that the criteria for if something should or should not be in a BSD operating system? One could apply that type of critera from difference perspectives to almost anything in the base system and ask for its removal. tip/cu no longer belong, who has serial ports? (A modern MACbook user who hasnt seen a serial port on a machine in a decade). ME, screams an embeded board user. What appears to be unused or specialized to one user can be very differeent to another. It is best to keep an open mind that there are many very diverse users of BSD. These tools are "in base" because 1BSD and 3BSD put them there as useful tools. And given that age they probably got used a fair bit. So that answers the question as to why they are there. "As far as I can tell" needs to be a bit stronger, have you removed them from the system and had an exp run done to make sure they are not used? Rather than trying to micro minimize the size of FreeBSD base realizes that package base should completly optionalize these types of things and then users can decide if they need/want them. Then perhaps at that point start a large and complete sweep of the system to try and decide what is and is not in base. Doing this one little thing at a time is just a PITA and IMHO a waste of time. -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Jul 3 14:56:23 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB4A61027566 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 14:56:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5145285081 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 14:56:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 151ED1027564; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 14:56:23 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6D9A1027563 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 14:56:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: from mail-yw0-x233.google.com (mail-yw0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 89DD985080 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 14:56:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: by mail-yw0-x233.google.com with SMTP id r3-v6so792410ywc.5 for ; Tue, 03 Jul 2018 07:56:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=eitanadler.com; s=0xdeadbeef; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=yw4IUA3EkcNXmKbBuvVzRraQPcBVld/aMZzl8Zw0yig=; b=TOCPYnZIPQwLNGXD0GSKE0Y5E8WjQyH7ADyRytr2OzOiRZgg4IvtHutW6vdCjUevgj ZsILgC3Ns50tsLNrouS9mYI2lTGX8CqzcahQ38uO7UkV4OAJSp8J90kODlkuHQIKZwrU /Wdof+mQ5Dkw+U0orByDoVvTSJbeqcsCBojSg= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=yw4IUA3EkcNXmKbBuvVzRraQPcBVld/aMZzl8Zw0yig=; b=PBtVuoWSvi6he+VIeRt94MPnoSO6COoEZB2VOWiRLf0/Cj1K2kdG8z8iEBSZ/pWe50 f+70et4SJbCr0D+gUy8e6Fk+DI+Vl4KlkJdh8fJexsVgGLx+48bBzxzI9p2AhWAm4zem Xo1kLdnkW1xddqZ0xBc4DsdhZCd627AotTXeUuHVxRuzRl5hi7eW8VLFItpYu6ThYjZj /R7Q4WQ2eyD33oeOW8sa6XFKPpcUJVSVLbhblCE3fm9BNHpAM3dwLbgThEIKpd3fNkld mztYls9YdNaJqFRBdiUdbkfxobuCTZaw9TLZfbIEVOl3JtzxksxH7498OXqb1LiFCKWf IjdA== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E3xbVPtPIovaXNayBdwDp06rl6IGfvXSBXjXvRkOXWvRJAMVwcY R935A0TkdoWj+ooeFcwo1hMHsrCaiw75gbpwBBTdcUpy X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpecEAPfRB4PTJQg7BgNJQvVoLdhxkgKy6pDIwfi7zMl6gvn49wmpog1cei8FkEbBMXrksLJuldcurCw0JLzmqw= X-Received: by 2002:a81:92ce:: with SMTP id j197-v6mr8961993ywg.37.1530629781271; Tue, 03 Jul 2018 07:56:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a25:870e:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 07:55:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <201807031445.w63EjJmF038596@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> References: <201807031445.w63EjJmF038596@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> From: Eitan Adler Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 07:55:50 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: xstr, mkstr To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 14:56:24 -0000 On 3 July 2018 at 07:45, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: >> On 24 June 2018 at 02:51, Eitan Adler wrote: >> > Why are these tools in base? As far as I could tell these tools are >> > un-used in the build process and otherwise specialized tools. Is there >> > any reason we still have them in the toolchain or in base? >> >> Anyone? They don't cause acute problems, but having specialized and >> specific tools like this don't seem like they belong. > > What appears to be unused or specialized to one user can be > very differeent to another. It is best to keep an open mind > that there are many very diverse users of BSD. I absolutely agree with you! I did not know much about their history, beyond them being used in low-memory environments. In fact, I agree with you so much so that I think that before doing anything about them, I should email an appropriate list to find out more about them. Perhaps arch@ is a good list? hackers@ might also be good, but tends to have less of a reply-rate. > "As far as I can tell" needs to be a bit stronger, Agreed. But before doing work we should first make sure that the work will be productive. > have you > removed them from the system and had an exp run done to make > sure they are not used? I have locally built a system without them and built several ports. This is certainly not an exp-run, but want to hold off on filing for an exp-run before this conversation about their usefulness is complete. -- Eitan Adler From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Jul 3 15:26:45 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D5D71029F60 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 15:26:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D91EB86DDE for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 15:26:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 930DF1029F5B; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 15:26:44 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B9051029F5A for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 15:26:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-io0-x236.google.com (mail-io0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F090786DDD for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 15:26:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-io0-x236.google.com with SMTP id z19-v6so2085368ioh.4 for ; Tue, 03 Jul 2018 08:26:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=eYXBp3Ueqdcy77uBiX87IBXOB+NEcCEvxboYi67HQyE=; b=s8K6MI9cQ0o11322tIQNLSHcWsVhqu0CS6CVgQeujExJDWSO3s85/VSIZbh79TRdBs UuFOFhvbojR7gTzSFKq5ZqRAmsme7AEQWJTmBtZGxfsVg3NhJHrCJUa9j3N60Dpvm7FJ nxGssG+KO8cmb1BvgRaTGDS6GUa3M2aGNan+NaQCDRcJXk0LvzGkTWVBTQ77+svKVmg/ BsNGwADlYBbB3y6AJeVdJRzNBozmgZF/fFf3IXCmQoRx7USHpuplyxaIDe1+tuM0JQf7 0MOW7/7yNgzfljBvZ45UVkgkM+hFzq9HXYXhJUBDH/VlTn5+v9wWwWgS/IIfhdKqY6lH 3LHg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=eYXBp3Ueqdcy77uBiX87IBXOB+NEcCEvxboYi67HQyE=; b=IWOiWWGpJ4MD7zua9nTtdR1clwTqpud7O/uVxAwuv0h2iw+gdamDqUosvg9DE703Qs FJoKdvtbZPaULSz+DHNkqdYuxrwLdbN1mpLVY+flEOIF8SkkcG9g9LiMt28buO1uGQRr KEJU81PgLwkLJThIqt/CdnV8ymAslw9SP2JdtRhTgyns4wUV0TsBNOMSxtTQgLaAzl8o Cr5sABJwftvBkYERzAiwQHmXpeuPEvuxjt5SKqB8MK4xxQ17mHpZz/SbF7lyF3vSGHr9 TU+BY8q2DP6MrSbUXyBHHlFDuy/aQRlX6QgugJK5ESS4dTFLXc8tEZns6moZb189NLNT Nfbw== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E3qfm4dv2olznCXpaoxNmuaK82OLVBJYo0KQC6SNmN8XizWn4RH jCzo2UnBoe4K7Rm4EAicNc4ZG0edTnqtdbEkCK0+ZQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpcENT9+FF22u8a6Gvv8kqWP2HyP3nygdsYuNfSJ65vYshw31aYRPVTRMxGn3wDLwgvBI4+Xc9JlbNI5kAN+9vI= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:d004:: with SMTP id x4-v6mr2240483ioa.299.1530631603101; Tue, 03 Jul 2018 08:26:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <201807031445.w63EjJmF038596@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 09:26:30 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: xstr, mkstr To: Eitan Adler Cc: "Rodney W. Grimes" , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 15:26:45 -0000 > "As far as I can tell" needs to be a bit stronger, > > Agreed. But before doing work we should first make sure that the work > will be productive. > Xstr and most are best thought of as a final pass of the old pcc compiler. This functionality moved into gcc before the egcs split back in the 90s. The compiler has done this work for two decades now. Nobody uses it, or needs it today. Unlike tip or cu, nobody at all uses these. Warner > From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Jul 3 16:03:41 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00BC1102CF0F for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 16:03:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79A048928B for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 16:03:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 3791E102CF04; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 16:03:40 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 129BA102CF03 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 16:03:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.baldwin.cx (bigwig.baldwin.cx [IPv6:2001:470:1f11:75::1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AEEA489289 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 16:03:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from John-Baldwins-MacBook-Pro-2.local (ralph.baldwin.cx [66.234.199.215]) by mail.baldwin.cx (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 26DA010AFCD; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 12:03:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: What to do about rcmdsh(3) ? To: Cy Schubert , Eitan Adler References: <201807030330.w633Uchd087857@slippy.cwsent.com> Cc: Konstantin Belousov , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , "O'Connor, Daniel" From: John Baldwin Message-ID: Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 09:03:36 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <201807030330.w633Uchd087857@slippy.cwsent.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (mail.baldwin.cx); Tue, 03 Jul 2018 12:03:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.99.2 at mail.baldwin.cx X-Virus-Status: Clean X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 16:03:41 -0000 On 7/2/18 8:30 PM, Cy Schubert wrote: > In message il.com> > , Eitan Adler writes: >> On 26 June 2018 at 23:45, O'Connor, Daniel wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On 27 Jun 2018, at 13:01, Eitan Adler wrote: >>>> >>>> On 24 June 2018 at 05:14, Konstantin Belousov wrote: >>>>> On Sun, Jun 24, 2018 at 03:32:13AM -0700, Eitan Adler wrote: >>>>>> Now that the rcmds are removed from base, it opens a question about >>>>>> what to do with rcmdsh(3). >>>>>> This is documented as >>>>>> rcmdsh ??? return a stream to a remote command without superuser >>>>>> And is implemented as a rather simple wrapper of getaddrinfo and exec. >>>>>> >>>>>> This isn't something I'd imagine we'd add to libc now-a-days and is >>>>>> currently broken by default (due to defaulting to _PATH_RSH) >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm not sure there is much value in keeping this function around. I >>>>>> did a rather naive search for uses of this function in ports and >>>>>> couldn't find any. I'm preparing a more comprehensive patch for an >>>>>> exp-run. >>>>> There is a huge value in keeping ABI compatibility. The symbol must be k >> ept. >>>>> You may remove default version for the symbol if you are so inclined. >>>> >>>> I'm new at this. How does one do that? >>> >>> You could just leave the call, I assume it will fail with an error if rsh i >> sn't in the path. >> >> It will fail unconditionally since the call looks explicitly for >> /bin/rsh. Is it wrong to change the implementation to use PATH?I have >> not looked closely, but are there security implications to trusting >> the environment? > > If uid == 0, yes. To safely ensure that a setuid (root or otherwise) > program cannot be tricked into running some other application than > /bin/rsh, IMO the safest option might be to do what the kernel does > when executing init at boot. That is, select it from colon separated > list. We can default to /usr/local/bin/rsh with a src.conf option. > > I don't believe rcmdsh() is POSIX or SPEC 1170, so it could default to > /usr/bin/ssh instead. > > Personally, IMO, I think rcmdsh() is too much trouble for what it's > worth. It should be removed. Do we have an idea of how many > applications removing this function might impact? I'm willing to bet > very few. I think you could also just leave it as-is without changing the path and require the user to explicitly create a suitable /usr/bin/rsh if they require it for some reason. If you wanted to retire the symbol as suggested by kib@ that would also be fine and would prevent new applications from using it going forward (but you don't get to remove the source from libc). -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Jul 3 16:05:54 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EBA5102D19F for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 16:05:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37A58893E3 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 16:05:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id F02FB102D19C; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 16:05:53 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC068102D19A for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 16:05:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.baldwin.cx (bigwig.baldwin.cx [IPv6:2001:470:1f11:75::1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E95E893E0 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 16:05:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from John-Baldwins-MacBook-Pro-2.local (ralph.baldwin.cx [66.234.199.215]) by mail.baldwin.cx (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 770E410A87D; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 12:05:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: xstr, mkstr To: Warner Losh , Eitan Adler References: <201807031445.w63EjJmF038596@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , "Rodney W. Grimes" From: John Baldwin Message-ID: Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 09:05:51 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (mail.baldwin.cx); Tue, 03 Jul 2018 12:05:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.99.2 at mail.baldwin.cx X-Virus-Status: Clean X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 16:05:54 -0000 On 7/3/18 8:26 AM, Warner Losh wrote: >> "As far as I can tell" needs to be a bit stronger, >> >> Agreed. But before doing work we should first make sure that the work >> will be productive. >> > > Xstr and most are best thought of as a final pass of the old pcc compiler. > This functionality moved into gcc before the egcs split back in the 90s. > The compiler has done this work for two decades now. Nobody uses it, or > needs it today. > > Unlike tip or cu, nobody at all uses these. Agreed, these tools are quite obscure and I don't think _FreeBSD_ has ever used them. -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Jul 3 16:35:24 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE9D1102F80A for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 16:35:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C03E8A889 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 16:35:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 083BF102F805; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 16:35:24 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7819102F804 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 16:35:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-it0-x232.google.com (mail-it0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B4198A883 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 16:35:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-it0-x232.google.com with SMTP id p185-v6so4019614itp.4 for ; Tue, 03 Jul 2018 09:35:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=5zujcrjoz/QJVMnslaQinSJMEtvgpu+0+cn/Ff6eYeA=; b=x6Q+n4m6AZDcg+a6xO794x86lAmN/sRdLEGnU+u5N8M8OHwewOdIzn7++zmdLWfiHP 3ASaBr6IppCv7/cbYuL/77DfwWd8oONdJ9wG9g77/RL/aN0dWPK8w7pZH8gmqp7tn30i +zBynMK6OMSzZAG/S15bd6jXCqrGbCWYZ4CXPGttozSE9FB0UOP3TsVGADTx0njVDNtk 3XoxdYAqvpfGfuKqvFrPF5/06A5RePO7Gs07jiO7KHkasUqadq4VXRMxhgyRkfGiCPPF tBdk2oy4vxkM+Viy8zS+E3eCWjIaHFXoWTLf6AOeL1Dy2GZxtAK7XydpCx0f0iaqeMXI 3n4w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5zujcrjoz/QJVMnslaQinSJMEtvgpu+0+cn/Ff6eYeA=; b=LulEhTVIFSbSC4jLEJMYgy4u5qZR5wq57J4loJpuw4mI7sxE8eMj/3f2YyWQUu2W/z oZvoOij8S3zjSsIKTYxjnAkw7nCgDHYnpIZiLS7gu6mD1QEbBqggAafUlii6JLW/JBmG TjWjm3n8sDh/x5sKkz2qw2ROvv8H58B0QEjVWrpaVTo+hd4Ms3WszU4OZcSKPrlaAqUk dtfO5AgMQFFaYu7yxpqRVLvALPtW9SoltD1oGAj8FTeCW/9u3In6E2drilFZoVzPTMVr SqJp6zgWNBe2PXS0xRiUgUtR+3x4L5L3NUxDvKjkw251hbOToa2szZ3yHjhdmpj8PgZa jfVg== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E2D48zOK5CcydfNIq8oO3sYaQ4ku0XFth4gATNuTFgqocdxgcLP LGEbc3i48pg/Cv87XhflDkWOZk7Dy7OuAklBSJgCyA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpf0NaCt26npVI6rxzXLeSxIg9EG78+jBQ0GVx6fjFjlL1gkSp7KR4yISaVSloeAKeQpN2rWMXOFkgkRM75r10Y= X-Received: by 2002:a02:a701:: with SMTP id k1-v6mr14646634jam.140.1530635722447; Tue, 03 Jul 2018 09:35:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <201807031445.w63EjJmF038596@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 10:35:10 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: xstr, mkstr To: John Baldwin Cc: Eitan Adler , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , "Rodney W. Grimes" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 16:35:25 -0000 On Tue, Jul 3, 2018, 11:05 AM John Baldwin wrote: > On 7/3/18 8:26 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > >> "As far as I can tell" needs to be a bit stronger, > >> > >> Agreed. But before doing work we should first make sure that the work > >> will be productive. > >> > > > > Xstr and most are best thought of as a final pass of the old pcc > compiler. > > This functionality moved into gcc before the egcs split back in the 90s. > > The compiler has done this work for two decades now. Nobody uses it, or > > needs it today. > > > > Unlike tip or cu, nobody at all uses these. > > Agreed, these tools are quite obscure and I don't think _FreeBSD_ has ever > used them. > If we did, we had stopped by 3.x for sure. Warner > From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Jul 3 16:41:56 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FCC010302E8 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 16:41:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E55238B07D for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 16:41:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id A68FC10302E4; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 16:41:55 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 951E610302E3 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 16:41:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0807A8B05F; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 16:41:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id w63GfjMB039022; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 09:41:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id w63GfiIp039021; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 09:41:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <201807031641.w63GfiIp039021@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: xstr, mkstr In-Reply-To: To: John Baldwin Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 09:41:44 -0700 (PDT) CC: Warner Losh , Eitan Adler , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 16:41:56 -0000 [ Charset UTF-8 unsupported, converting... ] > On 7/3/18 8:26 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > >> "As far as I can tell" needs to be a bit stronger, > >> > >> Agreed. But before doing work we should first make sure that the work > >> will be productive. > >> > > > > Xstr and most are best thought of as a final pass of the old pcc compiler. > > This functionality moved into gcc before the egcs split back in the 90s. > > The compiler has done this work for two decades now. Nobody uses it, or > > needs it today. > > > > Unlike tip or cu, nobody at all uses these. > > Agreed, these tools are quite obscure and I don't think _FreeBSD_ has ever > used them. I thought someone already pointed out places in the src tree that had references to them, though they may be commented out. -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Jul 3 16:43:40 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03E251030691 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 16:43:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8784E8B2AE for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 16:43:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 48E6B103068E; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 16:43:39 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25150103068D for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 16:43:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: from mail-yw0-x232.google.com (mail-yw0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B972E8B2AA for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 16:43:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: by mail-yw0-x232.google.com with SMTP id p129-v6so923101ywg.7 for ; Tue, 03 Jul 2018 09:43:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=eitanadler.com; s=0xdeadbeef; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=buYahHmh2qPOETDy6cw7xaJMHHXJaqiNBjFkrf5EDm0=; b=j9T0YMQMoTmarpMTxep680DYSJ+p7fZWC/6DFC8ukQXoVWuIXd2CdKlKfs5Uzduyr2 dJ3N9fUIas3C5hB/ixaOUEBX9h1FkYyk4VZlFzb0FzRBl8SBXR+cugewsoLvUzmT1T91 rk2XwAm6iU/swcd0DxINAPe2g1jzSo/z4zlnM= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=buYahHmh2qPOETDy6cw7xaJMHHXJaqiNBjFkrf5EDm0=; b=jgt2ES7K3YxynjsNGGAedsUGTdPLEDtUHWM5WhBKJy/Yg1b/yS5wk7GaRXZ71+4R18 6WuWMjhqJyfN3Z4EESn3K3j+xGpjkajWOvQgt17xdelVLouy5ld/9dRHqyTM9J9YK//q 6SYLhzRsQCyoa/CcCpaCZUZmR56XOy9cF9z7BCGLM7U6m4POnZO18DzgJdf4MEJEZ0NM cMumohXiBuOa1toP5GYTYDy716+NBkhsxvYwN9NSWz42wMahqGBXN1RiOdeW3Y8saSfj b9fslq5lwunawEr5xf9jpK991ncNzeWvHqwn8Jv3aPsh/RiAccRCiMoYCjI/HI27wEPP k34Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E2NTd3KMkxDudNgGGHqKlynqm9eQRtCLwrHQNPXrppn6fJjvjvE ZvZNCBbafFp2jPDjk+oM6FE5ZlIB/DLqMnpVj2vGmA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpeSl48+Jg9d1eiZKwqU1nsE2v+us141AK99+ELJpFOh/IOwyKp/L4cmduEJJsMTYwuB+nSZPS8PZJYA0/QV8eI= X-Received: by 2002:a0d:cf01:: with SMTP id r1-v6mr14498044ywd.162.1530636217930; Tue, 03 Jul 2018 09:43:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a25:870e:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 09:43:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201807030330.w633Uchd087857@slippy.cwsent.com> From: Eitan Adler Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 09:43:37 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: What to do about rcmdsh(3) ? To: John Baldwin Cc: Cy Schubert , Konstantin Belousov , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , "O'Connor, Daniel" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 16:43:40 -0000 I'm new at this. How does one do that? On Tuesday, 3 July 2018, John Baldwin wrote: > On 7/2/18 8:30 PM, Cy Schubert wrote: > > In message > il.com> > > , Eitan Adler writes: > >> On 26 June 2018 at 23:45, O'Connor, Daniel wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> On 27 Jun 2018, at 13:01, Eitan Adler wrote: > >>>> > >>>> On 24 June 2018 at 05:14, Konstantin Belousov > wrote: > >>>>> On Sun, Jun 24, 2018 at 03:32:13AM -0700, Eitan Adler wrote: > >>>>>> Now that the rcmds are removed from base, it opens a question about > >>>>>> what to do with rcmdsh(3). > >>>>>> This is documented as > >>>>>> rcmdsh ??? return a stream to a remote command without superuser > >>>>>> And is implemented as a rather simple wrapper of getaddrinfo and > exec. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> This isn't something I'd imagine we'd add to libc now-a-days and is > >>>>>> currently broken by default (due to defaulting to _PATH_RSH) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I'm not sure there is much value in keeping this function around. I > >>>>>> did a rather naive search for uses of this function in ports and > >>>>>> couldn't find any. I'm preparing a more comprehensive patch for an > >>>>>> exp-run. > >>>>> There is a huge value in keeping ABI compatibility. The symbol must > be k > >> ept. > >>>>> You may remove default version for the symbol if you are so inclined. > >>>> > >>>> I'm new at this. How does one do that? > > > > > If you wanted to retire the symbol as suggested > by kib@ that would also be fine and would prevent new applications from > using it going forward (but you don't get to remove the source from libc). Sounds like a plan. I'm new at this. How does one do that? -- Sent from my Turing Machine From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Jul 3 16:56:53 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A97C10319C8 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 16:56:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBC688BC58 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 16:56:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id AB04D10319C0; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 16:56:52 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ED8D10319BF for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 16:56:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-it0-x22c.google.com (mail-it0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 02D8E8BC53 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 16:56:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-it0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id v83-v6so4124879itc.3 for ; Tue, 03 Jul 2018 09:56:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=5cYm0pSHcrsxLY92COOp/zPNRaimF5O/NppVlsKe32w=; b=pVRqBaO0Zwp8Iu0M90r0ZPhj+qCaXbKirqizxXtAFHCxziPsLEVJqlvLKu07qKOJI8 agSFeH4lHraJu0aGdTAqM3gpY4iCKNZR0ApqXoYMcJMK3yfI/oI1+HnimS3lE+4rG+cp 0Ot6bf2fteyj/T+ZKnGF7+8dhP0qCwv0+tiijuepbcXOavnIxWyNhUPqu7Nio0DVugwU IlL4s5rIU1wYNz0dde3b1McKdJnHF2U664NCAmy0Isfrff038h1mjvmEf+o9ERCyOD1o /X+4fgfNsNxMQC9NK+L8oYHAGoNgj20lGEpna2mTsVxywc5hanBRV/44T/gnie9IPj4x ckgg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5cYm0pSHcrsxLY92COOp/zPNRaimF5O/NppVlsKe32w=; b=Nx0AFHZ3pHbTOkUqubO1ERjOvPmIIw3q2FqGvsf4QNFC9aH/HtOdjAs1zQU+NEVcyz icGdLhnjLPAMKKxzrZ6qcn+aevXW+HTytdp+f1nwEl3xcrFlZfZ7Qv6eLjstQaM8IFSb WqLd+yVWzhpfHKcSvoAAz7mTcGHqQUKz1ijuUoecPfoNfBKYa5xxL0sFkSS2QLHrynsJ 5P3bXqtAXmwU0LjsC2t/W8sbFrm5WbpOnxefTHW8zvGrRwoNgxoweFp/lY0EJ5KVgFqf /plViUwll9LHu+uC9oyVlw9tNtQffqOHnoJiEGqvazvh3n8xrbjrFnfKhzukFmGiNjDP gYTg== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E1bSGdp/DZnwnxI/+O11c6E7q/xgvZ3piKI8CA8QxceBAqW0k6n iw9zxPhGatxHkwbYYb9CxYWzO+KZLHkh9Lh00c6IQQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpd5wljeIk6oJx0YCLEF4XcIs7v0PVD9BMiCPTxXp+u7CMP2LMh184GVlSMAXWEtzQNFNp6KNmn8OIxqcbg1UrQ= X-Received: by 2002:a02:6348:: with SMTP id j69-v6mr25673712jac.45.1530637011211; Tue, 03 Jul 2018 09:56:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <201807031641.w63GfiIp039021@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> In-Reply-To: <201807031641.w63GfiIp039021@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> From: Warner Losh Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 10:56:38 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: xstr, mkstr To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: John Baldwin , Eitan Adler , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 16:56:53 -0000 On Tue, Jul 3, 2018, 11:41 AM Rodney W. Grimes < freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > [ Charset UTF-8 unsupported, converting... ] > > On 7/3/18 8:26 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > > >> "As far as I can tell" needs to be a bit stronger, > > >> > > >> Agreed. But before doing work we should first make sure that the work > > >> will be productive. > > >> > > > > > > Xstr and most are best thought of as a final pass of the old pcc > compiler. > > > This functionality moved into gcc before the egcs split back in the > 90s. > > > The compiler has done this work for two decades now. Nobody uses it, or > > > needs it today. > > > > > > Unlike tip or cu, nobody at all uses these. > > > > Agreed, these tools are quite obscure and I don't think _FreeBSD_ has > ever > > used them. > > I thought someone already pointed out places in the src tree > that had references to them, though they may > You removed the SHAREDSTRINGS support in r3493 back in 1994. It's been unused since then. There are comments that suggest it never worked in FreeBSD, but that may be 2.0 and newer only. Warner > From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Jul 3 17:56:31 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBBAD10380F7 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 17:56:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 666078EC43 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 17:56:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 2252110380F6; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 17:56:31 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E4FE10380F5 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 17:56:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6129B8EC41; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 17:56:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id w63HuMH3039272; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 10:56:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id w63HuM2c039271; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 10:56:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <201807031756.w63HuM2c039271@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: xstr, mkstr In-Reply-To: To: Warner Losh Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 10:56:22 -0700 (PDT) CC: John Baldwin , Eitan Adler , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 17:56:32 -0000 [ Charset UTF-8 unsupported, converting... ] > On Tue, Jul 3, 2018, 11:41 AM Rodney W. Grimes < > freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > > > [ Charset UTF-8 unsupported, converting... ] > > > On 7/3/18 8:26 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > >> "As far as I can tell" needs to be a bit stronger, > > > >> > > > >> Agreed. But before doing work we should first make sure that the work > > > >> will be productive. > > > >> > > > > > > > > Xstr and most are best thought of as a final pass of the old pcc > > compiler. > > > > This functionality moved into gcc before the egcs split back in the > > 90s. > > > > The compiler has done this work for two decades now. Nobody uses it, or > > > > needs it today. > > > > > > > > Unlike tip or cu, nobody at all uses these. > > > > > > Agreed, these tools are quite obscure and I don't think _FreeBSD_ has > > ever > > > used them. > > > > I thought someone already pointed out places in the src tree > > that had references to them, though they may > > > > You removed the SHAREDSTRINGS support in r3493 back in 1994. It's been > unused since then. There are comments that suggest it never worked in > FreeBSD, but that may be 2.0 and newer only. Removed it, not commented it out. Someone else on this thread made statement that stuff is refering to these tools, that could not been what I removed in r3493. I do see that some of what I removed in r3493 is now back as bmake has moved to contrib/ and these strings are now there: ./contrib/bmake/mk/prog.mk:.if defined(SHAREDSTRINGS) ./contrib/bmake/mk/README:SHAREDSTRINGS If defined, a new .c.o rule is used that results in shared Those are parts that I totally removed from share/mk/{bsd.README,bsd.prog.mk} in r3493. The only note I see about "never worked" is that prog.mk stuff is suppose to have issues with Parallel make, thats in the contrib/bmake/mk/README. Where do you have a reference to never worked in FreeBSD? -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Jul 3 18:35:37 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFD14103BDB3 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 18:35:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7933A910CF for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 18:35:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 39ED2103BDB2; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 18:35:36 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1274D103BDB1 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 18:35:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.baldwin.cx (bigwig.baldwin.cx [96.47.65.170]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A56F4910CE for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 18:35:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from John-Baldwins-MacBook-Pro-2.local (ralph.baldwin.cx [66.234.199.215]) by mail.baldwin.cx (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C5B2310A87D; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 14:35:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: What to do about rcmdsh(3) ? To: Eitan Adler References: <201807030330.w633Uchd087857@slippy.cwsent.com> Cc: Cy Schubert , Konstantin Belousov , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , "O'Connor, Daniel" From: John Baldwin Message-ID: <78754f4e-19df-7832-5d48-beae5eee73cb@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 11:35:32 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (mail.baldwin.cx); Tue, 03 Jul 2018 14:35:34 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.99.2 at mail.baldwin.cx X-Virus-Status: Clean X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 18:35:37 -0000 On 7/3/18 9:43 AM, Eitan Adler wrote: > On Tuesday, 3 July 2018, John Baldwin > wrote: > > On 7/2/18 8:30 PM, Cy Schubert wrote: > > In message > il.com > > > , Eitan Adler writes: > >> On 26 June 2018 at 23:45, O'Connor, Daniel > wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> On 27 Jun 2018, at 13:01, Eitan Adler > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> On 24 June 2018 at 05:14, Konstantin Belousov > wrote: > >>>>> On Sun, Jun 24, 2018 at 03:32:13AM -0700, Eitan Adler wrote: > >>>>>> Now that the rcmds are removed from base, it opens a question about > >>>>>> what to do with rcmdsh(3). > >>>>>> This is documented as > >>>>>>     rcmdsh ??? return a stream to a remote command without superuser > >>>>>> And is implemented as a rather simple wrapper of getaddrinfo and exec. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> This isn't something I'd imagine we'd add to libc now-a-days and is > >>>>>> currently broken by default (due to defaulting to _PATH_RSH) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I'm not sure there is much value in keeping this function around. I > >>>>>> did a rather naive search for uses of this function in ports and > >>>>>> couldn't find any. I'm preparing a more comprehensive patch for an > >>>>>> exp-run. > >>>>> There is a huge value in keeping ABI compatibility.  The symbol must be k > >> ept. > >>>>> You may remove default version for the symbol if you are so inclined. > >>>> > >>>> I'm new at this. How does one do that? > > > > > If you wanted to retire the symbol as suggested > by kib@ that would also be fine and would prevent new applications from > using it going forward (but you don't get to remove the source from libc). > > >  Sounds like a plan. I'm new at this. How does one do that? See https://reviews.freebsd.org/D12298 and the change to gets.c in particular. You rename the function and add a __sym_compat(). You will also want to update the manpage to note it has been removed and you need to MFC the deprecation warning to older branches. Possibly the actual removal needs to be deferred to 13.0 since we are fairly close to 12.0. Also, we haven't had any real warnings. So, what I would do is the following: 1) As a trial balloon, hack up a patch that just removes rcmd() and rcmdsh() and any other related functions from the headers and request an exp-run just to ensure ports don't blow up before investing a lot of work in the "full" solution. 2) For 12.0 I would add __warn_references() warnings for rcmd() and rcmdsh() (see gets.c for examples) as well as deprecation notices to the manual pages. These changes can also be merged to stable branches. 3) After 12.0 branches, I would use the __sym_compat approach to preserve the existing versioned symbols but remove the default version (this also means removing the prototypes from headers). This patch will probably also need an exp-run. -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Jul 3 23:09:48 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A51651032DF2 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 23:09:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cse.cem@gmail.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AD0C76793 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 23:09:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cse.cem@gmail.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id EF9411032DEF; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 23:09:47 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAFED1032DEB for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 23:09:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cse.cem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-it0-f52.google.com (mail-it0-f52.google.com [209.85.214.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 72F857678F; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 23:09:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cse.cem@gmail.com) Received: by mail-it0-f52.google.com with SMTP id j185-v6so5208985ite.1; Tue, 03 Jul 2018 16:09:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=GY0av34yDRr2nS81QrKb+9jMHmIw3tPZPEX8tzHM2rE=; b=JuIhz0HmEJUBbaFV8VotrQ4gu+sunMaTwqv3Sy4XDvyzgq8ygqVFXsatalt2K/GEHv +jK25XiYMqfksU5r3ryOoU0RTuhl/BepUahsVm0RL+18b3x4VHyuySRV5c3VrgKtzrBQ Glxan1MnF2p6bXqo0tyiiV4V7+AHiOeIWBjhezQDuS8RCIWbtCeYyEea+EK1J9Comaph DsPvSvb6/k32MSCmI4WwSaqShT2LqylxAwbf+jtrtuz1oanWP3IMa5IoUVy/og0NNzz1 IZKexHZ2aKzq7Xdn+WAFWuVLjpoLBv+6JRaNbYi/MVPg82GPeqWFHmYUe+GJJuj75PfP LEkA== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E2mRgYl5nO67ZXGmcCixKzGoYNfMQGYPjBxypp+/oP5MWITixom pBgAMS91cXezQaVL2KkgCrk3FG9N X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpdEgYztxLJ5zAEQG+3L/wsg5glq9I9FZhS9ax/u/si9thPB8BD0HLKJj7JCGuLa8n/g0eugmQ== X-Received: by 2002:a24:3c42:: with SMTP id m63-v6mr65421ita.138.1530659380946; Tue, 03 Jul 2018 16:09:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-f53.google.com (mail-it0-f53.google.com. [209.85.214.53]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a65-v6sm1127150itc.44.2018.07.03.16.09.40 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 03 Jul 2018 16:09:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-f53.google.com with SMTP id s7-v6so5359659itb.4; Tue, 03 Jul 2018 16:09:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a24:52:: with SMTP id 79-v6mr80747ita.58.1530659380748; Tue, 03 Jul 2018 16:09:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: cem@freebsd.org Received: by 2002:a02:7e0a:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 16:09:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Conrad Meyer Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 16:09:40 -0700 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Veriexec To: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Cc: "Stephen J. Kiernan" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 23:09:48 -0000 Hi, It's been two weeks since this went in broken. What's the status? Has any progress been made on fixing the glaring issues? (If any fixes have been committed since the initial code dump I complained about two weeks ago, I must have missed them.) I agree that perfect should not be the enemy of "good enough," but I don't believe what's in the tree is "good enough." 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Ip=[66.129.239.15]; Helo=[P-EMFE01C-SAC.jnpr.net] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MWHPR05MB3117 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-07-03_10:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=897 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1806210000 definitions=main-1807030260 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 23:24:12 -0000 > It's been two weeks since this went in broken. What's the status? > Has any progress been made on fixing the glaring issues? The userland tool has been removed - so only the kernel bits remain, no chance of anyone hurting themselves with it. I've been working on tweaks to libve to make it suitable for use for a new loader that can verify the manifest signatures. Almost ready to start fitting all that into the new stand/ environment as discussed with Warner a while back. Work get's in the way sometimes. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Jul 4 00:38:18 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BBD0103C776 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 00:38:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7BBA7AAB1 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 00:38:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id A8433103C775; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 00:38:17 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83FAB103C774 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 00:38:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:6074::16:84]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "freefall.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2500A7AAAF; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 00:38:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.xzibition.com (unknown [127.0.1.132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE4CD11F42; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 00:38:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bdrewery@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.xzibition.com (localhost [172.31.3.2]) by mail.xzibition.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAC31970; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 00:38:15 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.xzibition.com Received: from mail.xzibition.com ([172.31.3.2]) by mail.xzibition.com (mail.xzibition.com [172.31.3.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with LMTP id rf1BrGQ9Si5y; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 00:38:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: xstr, mkstr DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 mail.xzibition.com 27920968 To: "Rodney W. Grimes" , Warner Losh Cc: Eitan Adler , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" References: <201807031756.w63HuM2c039271@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> From: Bryan Drewery Openpgp: id=F9173CB2C3AAEA7A5C8A1F0935D771BB6E4697CF; url=http://www.shatow.net/bryan/bryan2.asc Autocrypt: addr=bdrewery@FreeBSD.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBFJphmsBCADiFgmS4bIzwZijrS31SjEMzg+n5zNellgM+HkShwehpqCiyhXdWrvH6dTZ a6u50pbUIX7doTR7W7PQHCjCTqtpwvcj0eulZva+iHFp+XrbgSFHn+VVXgkYP2MFySyZRFab D2qqzJBEJofhpv4HvY6uQI5K99pMqKr1Z/lHqsijYYu4RH2OfwB5PinId7xeldzWEonVoCr+ rfxzO/UrgA6v/3layGZcKNHFjmc3NqoN1DXtdaEHqtjIozzbndVkH6lkFvIpIrI6i5ox8pwp VxsxLCr/4Musd5CWgHiet5kSw2SzNeA8FbxdLYCpXNVu+uBACEbCUP+CSNy3NVfEUxsBABEB AAHNJEJyeWFuIERyZXdlcnkgPGJkcmV3ZXJ5QEZyZWVCU0Qub3JnPsLAgAQTAQoAKgIbAwUL CQgHAwUVCgkICwUWAwIBAAIeAQIXgAIZAQUCWujOIgUJCmB7NwAKCRA113G7bkaXz/xpB/9b /UWIPbieY1IeIuHF2pyYPE7Hytkh3HVsxMA0F5Ma2AYQsXZZeKNKWrF7RPyDyDwUklLHJkhm k3EfClBbHxf08kMIm1vWCJRtgxic9knY/bzYGiWMpHjg3cSd1XfrYH1autYqTZAjDwIkgOjU dR//Tbn4V36sY7y2jz+kdMVWvK53U32aZqiwBbCn4DPe1wSZcUs17mV/0uZdIoGdj74B1orN A/0py5vHYo6HcbBNoaR8pKRLf5VZNRsxqGIMhTucx4SJWcHpuRBWYyvJSFzwvxdK4ZD4Yqoc kFGPVtOXktVMai9exrLvP3G77fKMu8DI6j4QRU4wCesnHuIfRPFuzsBNBFJphmsBCACiVFPf kNfaFtUSuY0395ueo/rMyHPGPQ2iwvERFCpeFGSQSgagpenNHLpFQKTg/dl6FOoST5tqyxMq fyHGHDzzU51bvA/IfaGoNi/BIhTe/toZNMRvpcI3PLjiGcnJnuwCCbAVOAGdb+t5cZtpNdOI cKYmrYG3u9RiBpe6dTF+qLrD/8Bs1wjhduQ8fcNNgnkXu8xDH4ZxY0lIc3QgvYWp9vimlQe6 iKjUd2/DX28ETZcD5h6pYV331KMPTrEI0p0yvFijUZce8c1XHFyL1j9sBAha5qpszJl6Uq5i LolhKRcGfcdmtD72vHQjUYglUyudSJUVyo2gMYjdbiFKzJulABEBAAHCwGUEGAEKAA8CGwwF AlrozigFCQpgez0ACgkQNddxu25Gl8+m5Af/R3VEdxNMAcDIes9ADhQyofj20SPV3eCJ3HYR OebTSuNdOudGt4AAyA8Ks94u9hiIp5IGsc6RDsT9W7O2vgXhd6eV3eiY5Oif5xLIYrIDVu1Y 1GyRxRrPEn/QOqDN6uFZCPwK1aOapGcYCrO9lB0gMuTVfgHanU61rgC9tMX0OoAOyRd+V3/M 8lDNhjJdF/IpO3SdYzKfkwduy4qamw4Gphcx/RfYQvYLq/eDkP8d50PphWdboqWBwNRHayro W/07OGzfxM5fJ5mBsXPQcO2QcRjkyHf6xCM6Hi1qQL4OnXMNE/ZTX0lnOj1/pH93TlzSHZMP TaiiA/MBD3vGsXBmBg== Organization: FreeBSD Message-ID: <31b491de-ac5e-ca0f-5f84-96cfa7c02699@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 17:38:11 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <201807031756.w63HuM2c039271@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="HLfNzFQaF5XpRKdowEr4KhqURDVvYUv1n" X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2018 00:38:18 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --HLfNzFQaF5XpRKdowEr4KhqURDVvYUv1n Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="UbNnOy9TivdUOWyAzHZgc0JsZL2zcCfL4"; protected-headers="v1" From: Bryan Drewery To: "Rodney W. Grimes" , Warner Losh Cc: Eitan Adler , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Message-ID: <31b491de-ac5e-ca0f-5f84-96cfa7c02699@FreeBSD.org> Subject: Re: xstr, mkstr References: <201807031756.w63HuM2c039271@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> In-Reply-To: <201807031756.w63HuM2c039271@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> --UbNnOy9TivdUOWyAzHZgc0JsZL2zcCfL4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/3/2018 10:56 AM, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > [ Charset UTF-8 unsupported, converting... ] >> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018, 11:41 AM Rodney W. Grimes < >> freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: >> >>> [ Charset UTF-8 unsupported, converting... ] >>>> On 7/3/18 8:26 AM, Warner Losh wrote: >>>>>> "As far as I can tell" needs to be a bit stronger, >>>>>> >>>>>> Agreed. But before doing work we should first make sure that the w= ork >>>>>> will be productive. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Xstr and most are best thought of as a final pass of the old pcc >>> compiler. >>>>> This functionality moved into gcc before the egcs split back in the= >>> 90s. >>>>> The compiler has done this work for two decades now. Nobody uses it= , or >>>>> needs it today. >>>>> >>>>> Unlike tip or cu, nobody at all uses these. >>>> >>>> Agreed, these tools are quite obscure and I don't think _FreeBSD_ ha= s >>> ever >>>> used them. >>> >>> I thought someone already pointed out places in the src tree >>> that had references to them, though they may >>> >> >> You removed the SHAREDSTRINGS support in r3493 back in 1994. It's been= >> unused since then. There are comments that suggest it never worked in >> FreeBSD, but that may be 2.0 and newer only. >=20 > Removed it, not commented it out. Someone else on this thread made > statement that stuff is refering to these tools, that could not been > what I removed in r3493. >=20 > I do see that some of what I removed in r3493 is now back as bmake > has moved to contrib/ and these strings are now there: > ./contrib/bmake/mk/prog.mk:.if defined(SHAREDSTRINGS) > ./contrib/bmake/mk/README:SHAREDSTRINGS If defined, a new .c.o rule is = used that results in shared >=20 These files (contrib/bmake/mk/*) are not used anywhere for FreeBSD. It's just part of the bmake distribution. On the otherhand I don't see the point in removing something that isn't harming anything, is not worth talking about in terms of size or build time, and is unlikely to need maintenance. This argument of "not useful" is a bit subjective. Is cut useful when we have awk? I won't go on. > Those are parts that I totally removed from > share/mk/{bsd.README,bsd.prog.mk} in r3493. >=20 > The only note I see about "never worked" is that prog.mk stuff > is suppose to have issues with Parallel make, thats in the > contrib/bmake/mk/README. Where do you have a reference to > never worked in FreeBSD? >=20 --=20 Regards, Bryan Drewery --UbNnOy9TivdUOWyAzHZgc0JsZL2zcCfL4-- --HLfNzFQaF5XpRKdowEr4KhqURDVvYUv1n Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJbPBbzAAoJEDXXcbtuRpfPp/UIALond9f1zDPAQvoa61EHD0iF +YyPeqZMljqug6CW1odwgneu+lTtV5MKMGNVzlyKhpcSBl8fRkc100eHkrxePxFy +ZeJNVtC5sMU0TiPOHxkydEo4MLSj3CNk9XE+1LsHmWqEhQuP1nf3uKlXLaKLEef 1NCJ7TIG0fh3kiEFLvh9Q8kUIji61XxUZ22HuEQ2xCBf6Kw65FUXp5COKf21ZT61 TpENb18zovd/tQuZ6aWmIkLyK5F9ceLFMqTqkNBbAS/osNf9gpcerU6+fzAvvpnr mg8uEMdxXIYt2Jd7SLxAR0H89xsfX2WOliZxW18YU775ysxxsjzduJPdh9aRKpk= =Xtu8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --HLfNzFQaF5XpRKdowEr4KhqURDVvYUv1n-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Jul 4 04:04:00 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04ACE102A8A1 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 04:04:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9037F83A71 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 04:03:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 5308A102A899; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 04:03:59 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B78D102A898 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 04:03:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-io0-x236.google.com (mail-io0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AC0AF83A6E for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 04:03:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-io0-x236.google.com with SMTP id t135-v6so3648245iof.7 for ; Tue, 03 Jul 2018 21:03:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=KupvAQ6JCEsIHhAL+Mvr79DFL2HxBlaVZ4OkIW19tp0=; b=I1YMQOmQ+H8liNKHs7Qtx4i9a2ogUHtHzM+NxB9wPQ73mCSjJ+27+Rgey9ICVf0Bcx DjGUnYoNzlkS7f8cklMPg10x0t+mCLu3c6QHambhIbxyAISKZb67uDW/FI0CsLuAiKPC m7CPZ4xG1nRK2aQcdaaoHB/A5W178eCOiMRHUUpMNguxmw73m7/oqNHXke+OjqKmuUHU 7P1ntiRKTNj4E3T9jeJQYjrIhkyTOkhQle1eoiaT7Qrp/Rne1wkrcXIGClD907kSKzam kMPfdv+Q1lEPJV5Z/+7PELzEKnKicBO3pvtSf3y+Jfm/DlkIrLJdN0RsEpDe2r1MH101 QQYA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=KupvAQ6JCEsIHhAL+Mvr79DFL2HxBlaVZ4OkIW19tp0=; b=VhsJ6D9Ukf6zpQADWvu+7MBtmwMRPexDkKf/h5RtZ9UlcqE87zk+4LVzsBmSyZ73YY dtlxyGKCPdIuUEkq8KWJWfjEUqMKR5aRODTbSHV9dWCtBCd2xijjdtswy3/CLn/IfCRi n9QPCcL99Ogcgp4IjZsme83rm2Dmm1Xz2dJI2TjWQTgX5257zJE0hM8ozLlV4Qkj324G fP3p4lC0lHq3pWuwBp4+Efn8nfNd2xHcjfMu/JB2qIk9sHoEmwEkBMif74fUvl6+m2U9 l88y7Atb1lz2vANqO/1QLLmZVFGdVvWTDXH0ZwQ3HMhF4cyK4ZNuktC9ctPt7jVy2KCs psHQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E3CRlUuOoNhF2K2FvZtRAXZ1lTf5ZCSYq2XNwf78okgVv7skLko UT7H9G879GTP/005RzmULRzYHOG6yYUsQOU7MAIVmg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpez5nwlbdFnwgmiFdy8vtrmslCYXcnhscMk8uP8z4H+Pn0dwl7vk52+rb/8U0tMT03EEOTMrPIc7+rp18wDK6M= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:d40c:: with SMTP id l12-v6mr270646iog.37.1530677037792; Tue, 03 Jul 2018 21:03:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: wlosh@bsdimp.com Received: by 2002:a4f:1183:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 21:03:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [74.62.67.99] In-Reply-To: <201807031756.w63HuM2c039271@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> References: <201807031756.w63HuM2c039271@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> From: Warner Losh Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 22:03:57 -0600 X-Google-Sender-Auth: tBEaHlhRPpWZtOo3usrAQLetVlA Message-ID: Subject: Re: xstr, mkstr To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: John Baldwin , Eitan Adler , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2018 04:04:00 -0000 On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 11:56 AM, Rodney W. Grimes < freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > [ Charset UTF-8 unsupported, converting... ] > > On Tue, Jul 3, 2018, 11:41 AM Rodney W. Grimes < > > freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > > > > > [ Charset UTF-8 unsupported, converting... ] > > > > On 7/3/18 8:26 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > >> "As far as I can tell" needs to be a bit stronger, > > > > >> > > > > >> Agreed. But before doing work we should first make sure that the > work > > > > >> will be productive. > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Xstr and most are best thought of as a final pass of the old pcc > > > compiler. > > > > > This functionality moved into gcc before the egcs split back in the > > > 90s. > > > > > The compiler has done this work for two decades now. Nobody uses > it, or > > > > > needs it today. > > > > > > > > > > Unlike tip or cu, nobody at all uses these. > > > > > > > > Agreed, these tools are quite obscure and I don't think _FreeBSD_ has > > > ever > > > > used them. > > > > > > I thought someone already pointed out places in the src tree > > > that had references to them, though they may > > > > > > > You removed the SHAREDSTRINGS support in r3493 back in 1994. It's been > > unused since then. There are comments that suggest it never worked in > > FreeBSD, but that may be 2.0 and newer only. > > Removed it, not commented it out. Someone else on this thread made > statement that stuff is refering to these tools, that could not been > what I removed in r3493. > > I do see that some of what I removed in r3493 is now back as bmake > has moved to contrib/ and these strings are now there: > ./contrib/bmake/mk/prog.mk:.if defined(SHAREDSTRINGS) > ./contrib/bmake/mk/README:SHAREDSTRINGS If defined, a new .c.o rule is > used that results in shared > > Those are parts that I totally removed from > share/mk/{bsd.README,bsd.prog.mk} in r3493. > Right, it hsn't been relevant since then, and hasn't worked in the build system. the actual programs may or may not still work, since they were never updated past the K&R era level C language. There are a number of special cases I don't think they handle, including // comments. I doubt they are still useful. > The only note I see about "never worked" is that prog.mk stuff > is suppose to have issues with Parallel make, thats in the > contrib/bmake/mk/README. Where do you have a reference to > never worked in FreeBSD? > This was reimported after the original stuff was removed. I should have said unused rather than not working since it was 'not working with the build'. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Jul 4 06:52:06 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D3C51038D9F for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 06:52:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A9368A86E for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 06:52:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id EDD5C1038D9A; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 06:52:05 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9BC01038D99 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 06:52:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D28F8A86A; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 06:52:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.55.3]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id E400E14817; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 06:52:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w646q35T095859 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 4 Jul 2018 06:52:03 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: (from phk@localhost) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id w646q2nb095858; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 06:52:02 GMT (envelope-from phk) To: Bryan Drewery cc: "Rodney W. Grimes" , Warner Losh , Eitan Adler , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: xstr, mkstr In-reply-to: <31b491de-ac5e-ca0f-5f84-96cfa7c02699@FreeBSD.org> From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" References: <201807031756.w63HuM2c039271@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> <31b491de-ac5e-ca0f-5f84-96cfa7c02699@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <95856.1530687122.1@critter.freebsd.dk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2018 06:52:02 +0000 Message-ID: <95857.1530687122@critter.freebsd.dk> X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2018 06:52:06 -0000 -------- In message <31b491de-ac5e-ca0f-5f84-96cfa7c02699@FreeBSD.org>, Bryan Drewe= ry wr ites: >On the otherhand I don't see the point in removing something that isn't >harming anything, is not worth talking about in terms of size or build >time, and is unlikely to need maintenance. Source code is a liability, it is not an investment. If the code is useless and not part of a published API, then it should be removed. >This argument of "not useful" is a bit subjective. Is cut useful when we >have awk? I won't go on. cut(1) & awk(1) are both part of the published API, so that comparison get= s you nowhere. -- = Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe = Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence= . From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Jul 4 14:25:12 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8FAC103BD24 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 14:25:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86DB07E9BA for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 14:25:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 4029F103BD21; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 14:25:11 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DEEF103BD20 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 14:25:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E1707E9B5; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 14:25:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id w64EP21p043238; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 07:25:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id w64EP2sg043237; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 07:25:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <201807041425.w64EP2sg043237@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: xstr, mkstr In-Reply-To: <95857.1530687122@critter.freebsd.dk> To: Poul-Henning Kamp Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 07:25:02 -0700 (PDT) CC: Bryan Drewery , Warner Losh , Eitan Adler , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2018 14:25:12 -0000 > -------- > In message <31b491de-ac5e-ca0f-5f84-96cfa7c02699@FreeBSD.org>, Bryan Drewery wr > ites: > > >On the otherhand I don't see the point in removing something that isn't > >harming anything, is not worth talking about in terms of size or build > >time, and is unlikely to need maintenance. > > Source code is a liability, it is not an investment. Source code is both a liability and an investment, sometimes even a very large investment of time or money or both. > > If the code is useless and not part of a published API, then it should > be removed. Useless is another subjective term, what you find useless I may find very useful. API is also probably a poor use of that term here, none of these have "API", not even your cut(1) or awk(1) below. > > >This argument of "not useful" is a bit subjective. Is cut useful when we > >have awk? I won't go on. > > cut(1) & awk(1) are both part of the published API, so that comparison gets > you nowhere. I'll note that xstr is documented in PSD/make, and has a man page, making it have an API as much as cut(1) or awk(1). But, as I said early, lets just shelf all this "lets remove this or that cause of foo" until package base is done, and then a group of people should create a documented critiria list of what should or should not be in the base system, and do a tree wide sweep rather than have 100+ threads over the next 5 years about this or that. -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Jul 4 14:27:48 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7686D103C08E for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 14:27:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0615B7F244 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 14:27:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id BDB59103C08D; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 14:27:47 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99C93103C08B for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 14:27:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-io0-x236.google.com (mail-io0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D9E3F7F237 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 14:27:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-io0-x236.google.com with SMTP id l7-v6so5049475ioj.1 for ; Wed, 04 Jul 2018 07:27:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=sK1U1WcI/mYOwuatsGxs9j5IBsW7C2KJkpolQWytMWs=; b=LNd+OaOQCGupjy05nHDVc5tTKlPfswN5lcmevtmLBgHGQPmYlWDrcq2nZlvsg9VMFw vHG0eQCWu3/G9MquL3srV/0thlOf1Q/6kwZB7RiP4n+dgJIq4E/xjFUIf/8F0dUD3fxT pNXkwZGzhXgDgxNxMq7PPK0vcjxtQqO/XtOD0Gl4xOOX89kmN+5topHJZRDTkoEuYxTh qenRlAAMzehYUnBu+Jv1dUzy+2qXz0U+kL57i9KQG+EyNnTRV3Rm/XCv/7jHOQbCPFE3 1QNARhWcZhqH3dcIZj7TLLbbexW4AyWP3+lvOluNnrYEf+Nip3cDHMUgkHvvYldigOY6 Yjww== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=sK1U1WcI/mYOwuatsGxs9j5IBsW7C2KJkpolQWytMWs=; b=EmsC+xG/xEuB9rMmWynQvfXY0DRtRJ3h4LWKX4kgOZ0eJCeEKtu02QL+LZO9s0YXXd QFSlKjoLwUQQRKMNB2pNMXEKANruHftpGBK4wgkw3D163wEpxi64fEBet4m9+U70UKjS rdlgn7zDGRfvRPApoERbvzDX6S/jHef0r+KzeDeetp/kM94wsuECQJvm+ueqS+pG0f6b dKbdKb8lXSP15ooGkIdp57yV8vbEAArKM0gPo5sdOIu9T7UlPjmZhQUF3wnCHsDgAVDT 5qTuUX/dAUG4EGpAtkGiyTqIn8fPQ8OmSy1IUPFFozBPUOhh2D5Mh6YoPIaaWQFHDWiG 131g== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E1wV5Dxd4uwFCU8Q1sH9jzDEjHiMvrpeUEYoarP6sOLrOiWpaqQ NrgNFwqKDW2GPDrSF5kQ2j2vpnl0nuKxxKbDUeBMhg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpe7OEDvqwmxL+mdkU0mphUF7FXTn+CwqhuZ3nAN8ZWIQ/bj9vqnGMsTAqJYoWwXXOjfUHgFMjJqwPDqvNoU5Ow= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:280a:: with SMTP id o10-v6mr1769284ioo.168.1530714465075; Wed, 04 Jul 2018 07:27:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: wlosh@bsdimp.com Received: by 2002:a4f:1183:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 07:27:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [74.62.67.99] In-Reply-To: <201807041425.w64EP2sg043237@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> References: <95857.1530687122@critter.freebsd.dk> <201807041425.w64EP2sg043237@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> From: Warner Losh Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 08:27:44 -0600 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 4Xo1ZAP9FkxNSgFatmT-uPP38wM Message-ID: Subject: Re: xstr, mkstr To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Bryan Drewery , Eitan Adler , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2018 14:27:48 -0000 On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 8:25 AM, Rodney W. Grimes < freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > > But, as I said early, lets just shelf all this "lets remove this or > that cause of foo" until package base is done, and then a group of > people should create a documented critiria list of what should or > should not be in the base system, and do a tree wide sweep rather > than have 100+ threads over the next 5 years about this or that. > It does tie into the deprecation stuff too. xstr, at least, needs major work to support modern C dialects. It's not just old, it's also broken. A quick stroll through the code shows this. It should go because it's not worth taking with us to pkg base. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Jul 4 14:49:32 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE148103F07C for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 14:49:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F68D80D5B for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 14:49:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 1F846103F078; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 14:49:32 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E1BF103F077 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 14:49:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B32480D56; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 14:49:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id w64EnMLM043330; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 07:49:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id w64EnMiI043329; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 07:49:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <201807041449.w64EnMiI043329@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: xstr, mkstr In-Reply-To: To: Warner Losh Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 07:49:21 -0700 (PDT) CC: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , Eitan Adler , Poul-Henning Kamp , Bryan Drewery X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2018 14:49:32 -0000 > On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 8:25 AM, Rodney W. Grimes < > freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > > > > But, as I said early, lets just shelf all this "lets remove this or > > that cause of foo" until package base is done, and then a group of > > people should create a documented critiria list of what should or > > should not be in the base system, and do a tree wide sweep rather > > than have 100+ threads over the next 5 years about this or that. > > > > It does tie into the deprecation stuff too. Then shall this be tabled until that is finished please? > xstr, at least, needs major work to support modern C dialects. It's not > just old, it's also broken. A quick stroll through the code shows this. It > should go because it's not worth taking with us to pkg base. So add "Old", "Broken" to the list of critera and lets move on? Cost of taking this to pkg base should be 0, cost of this conversation is already >>> 0. -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Jul 4 15:46:59 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FB091043817 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 15:46:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B07D5834A0 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 15:46:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 6F5BD104380B; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 15:46:58 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DBF1104380A for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 15:46:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) Received: from pmta2.delivery6.ore.mailhop.org (pmta2.delivery6.ore.mailhop.org [54.200.129.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DFEE78349E for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 15:46:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) X-MHO-RoutePath: aGlwcGll X-MHO-User: 38197114-7f9f-11e8-b829-b3adae557cda X-Report-Abuse-To: https://support.duocircle.com/support/solutions/articles/5000540958-duocircle-standard-smtp-abuse-information X-Originating-IP: 67.177.211.60 X-Mail-Handler: DuoCircle Outbound SMTP Received: from ilsoft.org (unknown [67.177.211.60]) by outbound2.ore.mailhop.org (Halon) with ESMTPSA id 38197114-7f9f-11e8-b829-b3adae557cda; Wed, 04 Jul 2018 15:30:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rev (rev [172.22.42.240]) by ilsoft.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w64FUiJX021584; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 09:30:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <1530718244.24573.153.camel@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: xstr, mkstr From: Ian Lepore To: "Rodney W. Grimes" , Warner Losh Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , Poul-Henning Kamp , Bryan Drewery , Eitan Adler Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2018 09:30:44 -0600 In-Reply-To: <201807041449.w64EnMiI043329@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> References: <201807041449.w64EnMiI043329@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ASCII" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.18.5.1 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2018 15:46:59 -0000 On Wed, 2018-07-04 at 07:49 -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > > > > On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 8:25 AM, Rodney W. Grimes < > > freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > > But, as I said early, lets just shelf all this "lets remove this or > > > that cause of foo" until package base is done, and then a group of > > > people should create a documented critiria list of what should or > > > should not be in the base system, and do a tree wide sweep rather > > > than have 100+ threads over the next 5 years about this or that. > > > > > It does tie into the deprecation stuff too. > Then shall this be tabled until that is finished please? > > > > > xstr, at least, needs major work to support modern C dialects. It's not > > just old, it's also broken. A quick stroll through the code shows this. It > > should go because it's not worth taking with us to pkg base. > So add "Old", "Broken" to the list of critera and lets move on? > Cost of taking this to pkg base should be 0, cost of this > conversation is already >>> 0. Packaged base has nothing to do with this. The cost of keeping this code isn't a few bytes of disk space for the binary, it's the burden of having unused code that doesn't even work in the source tree. If you don't see that as a burden, then this conversation is going to keep going nowhere useful, as it has been doing for a couple days now. -- Ian From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Jul 5 16:46:48 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23DC9103C622 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 16:46:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B34FE8861C for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 16:46:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 737CB103C61B; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 16:46:47 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 606BC103C61A; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 16:46:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: from gold.funkthat.com (gate2.funkthat.com [208.87.223.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "gate2.funkthat.com", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D57BD8861A; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 16:46:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: from gold.funkthat.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gold.funkthat.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w65GLI5X040412 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 5 Jul 2018 09:21:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by gold.funkthat.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id w65GLHsu040411; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 09:21:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmg) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 09:21:17 -0700 From: John-Mark Gurney To: Warner Losh Cc: "freebsd-arm@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Armeb removal before 12 Message-ID: <20180705162117.GF2884@funkthat.com> Mail-Followup-To: Warner Losh , "freebsd-arm@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 11.0-RELEASE-p7 amd64 X-PGP-Fingerprint: D87A 235F FB71 1F3F 55B7 ED9B D5FF 5A51 C0AC 3D65 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: https://www.funkthat.com/ X-Resume: https://www.funkthat.com/~jmg/resume.html X-TipJar: bitcoin:13Qmb6AeTgQecazTWph4XasEsP7nGRbAPE X-to-the-FBI-CIA-and-NSA: HI! HOW YA DOIN? can i haz chizburger? User-Agent: Mutt/1.6.1 (2016-04-27) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (gold.funkthat.com [127.0.0.1]); Thu, 05 Jul 2018 09:21:18 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2018 16:46:48 -0000 Warner Losh wrote this message on Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 10:55 -0600: > I'd like to remove armeb before 12.0. As probably the only person still running armeb, I do not object to it's removal... Heck, even my board is still running a much older release... > It's poorly supported today. And I probably won't be putting in any additional work, mainly as those old boards are terribly slow... I can make a board available if someone has a desire to hack on it.. -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 415 225 5579 "All that I will do, has been done, All that I have, has not." From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Jul 5 16:57:35 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D053103D5A9 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 16:57:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A29D98901A for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 16:57:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 62F25103D5A6; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 16:57:34 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A927103D5A4 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 16:57:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-io0-x22c.google.com (mail-io0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BBB8989015 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 16:57:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-io0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id q9-v6so8363798ioj.8 for ; Thu, 05 Jul 2018 09:57:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=aR2YWqwB5nihSzYmwfTgd+eCFPhlZFwzNfDNqFCBN+c=; b=KsnHIQbF6cyPaU/OdXfF1KRZ3g/a+7oqAuUZdz0cDHXodCCdezmc6nDbxeC/LO6HUg xjqhMp6cw9FoJRIb/MD8h3hqEP+MHiJuwhnKMKOGyOIJtZMYu36AQ5MN9ByEVE3gVy93 NIafZkEeQWMVI97IGaWFCPwpbDw2ACYbUbR8cgdWDSEg/oeuRuAVH6oTZLwlOHxh1Oss i4/eLoRgMrkktgg0Y5E5iW0Q0Ui0rgveMygldBzjSUVjXcFYI43jb/h/4Hj9VDqeo5Oi mV7R3TnqEah0QA/gHmbW6OK7fRCqP019p8Ov1Z7IWczo4FahlRnPYzKDR6Ud8iiLfm+H aI2Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=aR2YWqwB5nihSzYmwfTgd+eCFPhlZFwzNfDNqFCBN+c=; b=SJq6qmtpWRyFYaqP/ZXxxqInORaKqe+CpxIDv9i/3c5ufELV+aAhMLfMUmLWXIUDsD axEL+PF+XwwE4OY7Lzv5DvSJ/7ddR14//604cZPf/lAYsIWAa260kkE1VRO8g4eZzA8F ok1Pbxygwc2r3D7cc6RMfNYxQwy/D3wYW21EAdO07uO3YnH+XNZQHbHbxq9Km5RJFt8e /ktE9Xg5pfu5inicKVIa7D9PoefyTlfTtxYhZMPXvmqjpOehWYeg4+CbyJgPQ5boDeCO f9ptiZCiDKLbX47a1mhiTfZx4OZpo09HfXs4Q0VUhJ2pWvZFAgP8ufymwZXPEAFgR1ZC N7Bw== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E3cE08ckZc0jihvacK5vv1QQ0d54XP7KPYKD8DemzIp8BF9n6wy ce3tDGAkbDBkvgeFrFtjrC/iXh0C3zLGOTONPyEmlA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfXlDWk4qYF/whsoLG97s+qAv7MvzfRIHi22tBJCyULCELbXyxCHryHTXRxAQP7iiDD3zOFJsyMUURf/HjfnOY= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:280a:: with SMTP id o10-v6mr5625783ioo.168.1530809852919; Thu, 05 Jul 2018 09:57:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20180705162117.GF2884@funkthat.com> In-Reply-To: <20180705162117.GF2884@funkthat.com> From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 10:57:21 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Armeb removal before 12 To: freebsd-arm@freebsd.org, "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2018 16:57:35 -0000 On Thu, Jul 5, 2018, 11:21 AM John-Mark Gurney wrote: > Warner Losh wrote this message on Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 10:55 -0600: > > I'd like to remove armeb before 12.0. > > As probably the only person still running armeb, I do not object to > it's removal... Heck, even my board is still running a much older > release... > > > It's poorly supported today. > > And I probably won't be putting in any additional work, mainly as > those old boards are terribly slow... > > I can make a board available if someone has a desire to hack on it.. I still have 2 of them. Newer boards are so much faster... Warner > > From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Jul 5 17:48:16 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41044104207D for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 17:48:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hackagadget@gmail.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 830D78C3DF for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 17:48:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hackagadget@gmail.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 43C4B1042076; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 17:48:15 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FD8C1042070 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 17:48:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hackagadget@gmail.com) Received: from mail-oi0-f44.google.com (mail-oi0-f44.google.com [209.85.218.44]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A3E0A8C3D8; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 17:48:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hackagadget@gmail.com) Received: by mail-oi0-f44.google.com with SMTP id b15-v6so18455770oib.10; Thu, 05 Jul 2018 10:48:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=tWHeioIyGHR6KTXbEkF4FIEZa01uH9+2q1GDIUraRIA=; b=tBZuo5sulK8Ds6UNaUo8pQwujGW1MNJvxT38JCA5z7uEuOFBJzRlSRH2Y6e0WP5uyS ZygHmGo/lolVP2lEiEHJfb5RoG4PptOcPOUQZ/O63OL/0XAr/jp09xVHPER5PBA3fHYQ AgsZLYO96iWXg0CPL9yJq8bZ55lFQy+LCrCpPtEeYSshm36ErHHo4To5J6NlWeecXnRS 82kBm7KE83n7OjLgwmAYZkIEkTOlTBZ8I5rvy40LOVxnvV2MQzc3bpNUPuJaoYhiUKcg Y4PkbszbFAoTaYCGos5oxm0xFBLeiyobScyl0lVyyiIzXsQ2jnH0POh5i/OJs0i85bM3 uINg== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E3s1EHjuu/uWsQu91i1DCoVFj2pNrrDvFbLeyFXuCm/2A3pNrfb 3thC14XiLF+S6PoLQ6q0rXAIa9Iz X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpdhNWFF10RGTnq1d/D44Wi14MoaQ0vKdnVuJvfHBhj7+mJiFKzGzbjkP0YxTBCf+Tazn6tPAA== X-Received: by 2002:aca:b1c1:: with SMTP id a184-v6mr8690477oif.182.1530812888146; Thu, 05 Jul 2018 10:48:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-f46.google.com (mail-oi0-f46.google.com. [209.85.218.46]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x64-v6sm3536973oig.44.2018.07.05.10.48.07 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 05 Jul 2018 10:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-f46.google.com with SMTP id c6-v6so18523388oiy.0; Thu, 05 Jul 2018 10:48:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:aca:ac54:: with SMTP id v81-v6mr7378009oie.1.1530812887678; Thu, 05 Jul 2018 10:48:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a9d:b0e:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 10:48:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: "Stephen J. Kiernan" Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 13:48:07 -0400 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Veriexec To: cem@freebsd.org Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2018 17:48:16 -0000 On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 7:09 PM, Conrad Meyer wrote: > Hi, > > It's been two weeks since this went in broken. What's the status? > Has any progress been made on fixing the glaring issues? > > (If any fixes have been committed since the initial code dump I > complained about two weeks ago, I must have missed them.) > > I agree that perfect should not be the enemy of "good enough," but I > don't believe what's in the tree is "good enough." > The backout commits for the veriexecctl bits (r335681) and the hooks into the build to compile the kernel modules (r335682) happened on 26 Jun 2018. I never really liked veriexecctl to begin with, but wanted to give people something to be able to load fingerprints with in order to try things out. Especially since there was ongoing discussion about how provide a signed manifest or similar method (which is what Simon is working on) that folks could add their own trust store material to. The intention was then to have veriexecctl go away. However, veriexecctl, as it was, did not have much practical use and could provide a false sense of security, so it was better to just purge it. There's work in progress on fixing the issues with the meta-data store and its use. However, family obligations and work has been taking up time. -Steve From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Jul 5 18:06:35 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC2111043AEA for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 18:06:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cse.cem@gmail.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CF028D85E for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 18:06:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cse.cem@gmail.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 1BBF51043AE2; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 18:06:35 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 090691043AE1 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 18:06:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cse.cem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-it0-f52.google.com (mail-it0-f52.google.com [209.85.214.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9722A8D85B; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 18:06:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cse.cem@gmail.com) Received: by mail-it0-f52.google.com with SMTP id p4-v6so13204888itf.2; Thu, 05 Jul 2018 11:06:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=A3WH6u2JyP6B6zpYxG66tHgoYLA6Y8/T6apL8jh2aGI=; b=Um/8G0nq9LUisn8SLtk7ei2+mDGhT0TD3sT4abwc8zu5+GuIRIo1oH5VJN+h3Gh+Z0 TNEqRlkg9bNzLd+m2pQs6X5XPVteZ+qtfgcuuUMpJ8O4hVW58m3Y9vSxm8JBeHMqCjne qst9sITKNSb/DR1XoWwE/QSNoRH5nq95OMXNSPn+pWMpe0VmWOsg/2GmMaz5Kn5wR1Lg DnwPnWtVkkadkyUe40XHViBvC8L1hRtGmM0vjphJkd1+ZS7bJvLVtmp7LsWp94G1B3JO uejBD/t6cMnMHo3EPxe7d0/7poww6EEdO7TU4J8zC8N8HIidejZJ80Kpf4Q/kWjRDopJ FA4w== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E38uvwrZW35/oLKA9pE5zZqGqCR33irRAo0Jc60FCJ0Hz6nSiuK B1hiGY+UkWJT5pEB468ZDrlfEv3/ X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfq4uc5MVMeV0uu5O08N5smMpf7ojAEJ8+D7wE+FJysV74KbkPbwjSXcbK0/RxoBLqeuZ+7pQ== X-Received: by 2002:a24:dec5:: with SMTP id d188-v6mr5450443itg.123.1530813988403; Thu, 05 Jul 2018 11:06:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-f54.google.com (mail-it0-f54.google.com. [209.85.214.54]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v132-v6sm4007646ita.9.2018.07.05.11.06.28 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 05 Jul 2018 11:06:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-f54.google.com with SMTP id 188-v6so13611902ita.5; Thu, 05 Jul 2018 11:06:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a02:954d:: with SMTP id y71-v6mr5995980jah.19.1530813988184; Thu, 05 Jul 2018 11:06:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: cem@freebsd.org Received: by 2002:a02:7e0a:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 11:06:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Conrad Meyer Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 11:06:27 -0700 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Veriexec To: "Stephen J. Kiernan" Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2018 18:06:36 -0000 On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 10:48 AM, Stephen J. Kiernan wrote: > On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 7:09 PM, Conrad Meyer wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> It's been two weeks since this went in broken. What's the status? >> Has any progress been made on fixing the glaring issues? > > The backout commits for the veriexecctl bits (r335681) and the hooks > into the build to compile the kernel modules (r335682) happened on > 26 Jun 2018. I'm familiar with these commits, but was asking more about the topic you glanced on below. (Additionally, I don't really like the use of "revert" (as used in the commit message) or "backout" (here) to describe the kernel changes. The bad code is still present, but disabled by default.) > There's work in progress on fixing the issues with the meta-data store > and its use. Ok. Can you elaborate on that progress? Is it happening in public? Is there any kind of (loose) schedule in mind? Thanks, Conrad From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jul 6 04:16:39 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AACEF1034FE5 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 04:16:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sjg@juniper.net) Received: from mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com (mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com [208.84.65.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.pphosted.com", Issuer "thawte SHA256 SSL CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E82E988943 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 04:16:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sjg@juniper.net) Received: from pps.filterd (m0108158.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w6649L0M027743; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 21:16:36 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juniper.net; h=to : cc : subject : in-reply-to : references : from : mime-version : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : date : message-id; s=PPS1017; bh=yaIJaXF7MQ+gUvsUBPJJTTVP2NUXBS2v6WbUPl25XuE=; b=2NcWksG0YZgflB5CvsWiqjhJDs8lYj3WAcuFvdXXTpQO1WlyQEsj5h2m/xdWfDI0vJDY 455x+Q34bmALf/h45s9gmBrqBjpNIrjTrF5z3617Qdjbjkrw3gmGTi8tJar3gn1ld2mx u2h3kC88zTgzZtv9atDQ8nwPPf8YfRBGFM3cEe1Y4E9ULJ2mcNQElEACgIp+KDowaukO MDlRxxNdlaEU86UP/ajC/NrHT8R7GxsHfAEIBIu1IMkz9nR41ucl/PMCmj3KGvDIe16A U11tNdbUhrWO3dzTV+y4WIHXuWezn2HCYQOz71TwzvEznHQ2/vgwZkUQLfKMxEtYpEbr mw== Received: from nam04-co1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-co1nam04lp0049.outbound.protection.outlook.com [216.32.181.49]) by mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2k1vq58cnq-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 05 Jul 2018 21:16:36 -0700 Received: from SN4PR0501CA0022.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:803:40::35) by CO2PR05MB619.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:141c::20) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.930.16; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 04:16:33 +0000 Received: from DM3NAM05FT048.eop-nam05.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:f400:7e51::201) by SN4PR0501CA0022.outlook.office365.com (2603:10b6:803:40::35) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.952.8 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 04:16:33 +0000 Received-SPF: SoftFail (protection.outlook.com: domain of transitioning juniper.net discourages use of 66.129.239.13 as permitted sender) Received: from P-EXFEND-EQX-02.jnpr.net (66.129.239.13) by DM3NAM05FT048.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.98.162) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA_P384) id 15.20.930.2 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 04:16:32 +0000 Received: from P-EXFEND-EQX-02.jnpr.net (10.104.8.55) by P-EXFEND-EQX-02.jnpr.net (10.104.8.55) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.847.32; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 21:16:32 -0700 Received: from P-EMFE01C-SAC.jnpr.net (172.24.192.43) by P-EXFEND-EQX-02.jnpr.net (10.104.8.55) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.847.32 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 21:16:32 -0700 Received: from p-mailhub01.juniper.net (10.47.226.20) by P-EMFE01C-SAC.jnpr.net (172.24.192.21) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.123.3; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 21:16:31 -0700 Received: from kaos.jnpr.net (kaos.jnpr.net [172.21.30.60]) by p-mailhub01.juniper.net (8.14.4/8.11.3) with ESMTP id w664GUQM031189; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 21:16:31 -0700 (envelope-from sjg@juniper.net) Received: from kaos.jnpr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kaos.jnpr.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 934FD63F4D; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 21:16:30 -0700 (PDT) To: CC: , Subject: Re: [Differential] D16155: Add veriexec to loader In-Reply-To: <84d9b7dd268a8cb64b51e4c49753bed8@localhost.localdomain> References: <84d9b7dd268a8cb64b51e4c49753bed8@localhost.localdomain> Comments: In-reply-to: "cem (Conrad Meyer)" message dated "Fri, 06 Jul 2018 02:35:06 -0000." From: "Simon J. 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Most style(9) comments will be dealt with - no discussion here. > - Why are we using PGP in any new cryptosystem? Because lots of people in the real world want to be able to use it? Like everything else, it is optional. > - Why are we using ASN.1 / x509 =E2=80=94 a notoriously difficult schem= e to parse correctly =E2=80=94 in the kernel or loader? Because it provides a high level of flexibility. Ie. I can load a brand new version of Junos on a 10+ year old version, and it will be able to verify all the signatures. Unlike some other designs that would force me to install intermediate versions in sequence. > - Why the plethora of duplicated functionality (e.g., above)? > (Also, the five different SHA hashes. Pick one that's good enough For the above requirement I need to ensure that the s/w I shipped 10+ years ago, knows how to handle hashes that were not required then. Also there is no need to enable any hashes that you do not want. > and just use it everywhere. SHA512 provides no meaningful benefit > over SHA256, but it also isn't clear that a basic hash is the > right construct anyway. There is no reason to use SHA384 at all.) Yes, there is - if/when SHA256 is deprecated. Hopefully SHA512/256 will be approved before then. > - What alternatives to x509 or PGP were considered and dismissed? > Please make it clear that you've done your research and examined > other options.=20 I gave a talk about this at BSDCan in June. At the end of the day, you can propose and implement an alternate design and see if anyone wants it. > - Why RSA or ECDSA (both have easy ways to foot-shoot) in new > cryptosystems, vs something like Ed25519?=20 Because as a vendor who sells to US Govt I'm limited to algorithms approved for that purpose. You can of course add anything you like. > - SHA1 should not be used at all. It is optional for that reason and not enabled by default. However we are using it and will continue to until NIST ban it. > Meta issues: >=20=20=20 > - Use of strcmp() for signature comparison. You want timingsafe_memcmp= (). In the loader? It is a single threaded app. > - Have you thought about wiping key memory before releasing it? I > don't see any invocations of explicit_bzero() (or bzero/memset, > for that matter). There are no private keys involved here at all. Public keys do not need any such treatment - they are not sensitive data. > > +#define VE_GUESS -1 /* let verify_file work it out */ > > +#define VE_TRY 0 /* we don't mind if unverified */ > > +#define VE_WANT 1 /* we want this verified */ >=20 > Both of these concepts seem pretty dubious. >=20 > The loader and kernel should not be guessing signing policy =E2=80=94 per= iod. If you can propose a means whereby every bit of lua and .4th can communicate to the loader the verification requirements... > Files either have a signature or do not. If they do, they must be > verified. If they don't, they cannot be verified. Not sure what try > or want has to do with that. Please go watch my talk from BSDCan. This is all covered. Yes, anything which has a hash must verify correctly. The above all only apply when no hash is found. Whether that is acceptible depends on the caller - never acceptible for modules, but may be ok for loader.conf and other files which may need to be mutable. > > tvo.c:36 > > +{ > > + int n; > > + int fd; >=20 > indent style in this file seems wrong Will go check - might have missed during recent style9 update. =20 > > vectx.c:124 > > + if (strncmp(cp, "sha256=3D", 7) =3D=3D 0) { > > + ctx->vec_md =3D &br_sha256_vtable; > > + hashsz =3D br_sha256_SIZE; >=20 > OCF (or openssl =E2=80=94 this appears to be userspace) supports all of t= hese > hashes. Why are we using bearssl for this? No, this is not userland, this api is specificially for the loader and specific to its loading of modules and kernel. It is not currently used - that will require a significant rototill of load_elf.c OpenSSL is at least an order of magnitude too big to be used in the loader. BearSSL allows all this to be done in ~100K All covered in my BSDCan talk > > veopen.c:117 > > + } > > + LIST_FOREACH(fip, &fi_list, entries) { > > + if (nfip->fi_prefix_len >=3D fip->fi_prefix_len) { >=20 > This is not going to be pretty with any significant number of verified fi= les. The loader does not deal with significant numbers of files. Further, it only deals with each file once. =20 > > veopen.c:136-137 > > +{ > > + char pbuf[MAXPATHLEN+1]; > > + char nbuf[MAXPATHLEN+1]; > > + struct stat st; >=20 > This is a lot of stack =E2=80=94 is this file userspace-only? Yes it is (quite a lot), and no it is loader only. It has not proven to be an issue, even when using old boot2 to boot stable/6 > > veopen.c:302 > > + n =3D 2*hlen; > > + if ((rc =3D strncmp(hex, want, n))) { > > + ve_error_set("%s: %.*s !=3D %.*s", path, n, hex, n, want); >=20 > Why are we comparing a printed hash at all? Because that's what's captured in the manifest. > > veopen.c:404-412 > > + * @brief > > + * open a file if it can be verified > > + * > > + * @param[in] path > > + * pathname to open > > + * > > + * @param[in] flags >=20 > None of the previous portion of this comment adds anything of value > for the reader beyond the information already present in the function > name and parameter types and names below. The comment is for extraction to api documentation (doxygen) > > verify.c:270 > > + strcmp(cp, ".hints") =3D=3D 0) > > + return VE_TRY; > > + } >=20 > What does "try" mean in this context? It means we don't really expect this file to have a hash. So even in strict mode (eg for FIPS 140) we won't get upset if it doesn't have one. If it does have one of course, then it must match. > > verify.c:380 > > + cp++; > > + if (strncmp(cp, "loader.ve.", 10) =3D=3D 0) { > > + cp +=3D 10; >=20 > kludge? Yes and no. We are taking advantage of the fact that the pathname is verified as well as its content, so we can use the pathname to communicate tuning info to loader eg "strict" mode for FIPS-140, even "off" for folk that don't care and want to speed up boot time. Again; covered in my BSDCan talk. > > vets.c:208 > > + /* This is deprecated! do not enable unless you absoultely have to */ > > + br_x509_minimal_set_hash(&mc, br_sha1_ID, &br_sha1_vtable); > > +#endif >=20 > Just remove it. There's no reason to be using SHA1 in novel > cryptographic designs in 2018. If you use it in JunOS, keep the SHA1 > stuff in JunOS, but I'd suggest moving away from SHA1 there, too. This is not a novel design - it's 15+ years old, but in this case perhaps, was useful for testing. > > vets.c:294 > > + > > + return hex; > > +} >=20 > Ew. Is this loader-only code? Mostly, but not necessarily. >=20 > > vets.c:381 > > + if (!vrfy(sdata, slen, hash_oid, mlen, pkey, vhbuf) || > > + memcmp(vhbuf, mdata, mlen) !=3D 0) { > > + return 0; /* fail */ >=20 > should this be timingsafe_memcmp? I cannot think of a reason why... > > vets.c:497-500 > > + cn_oid[0] =3D 3; > > + cn_oid[1] =3D 0x55; > > + cn_oid[2] =3D 4; > > + cn_oid[3] =3D 3; >=20 > This is pretty magical Yes. BearSSL is a very low level library. The comment above it, indicates that this is the DER encoded OID for the commonName field. --sjg From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jul 6 17:14:49 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7B30103C64D for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 17:14:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cse.cem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-it0-f66.google.com (mail-it0-f66.google.com [209.85.214.66]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 731488BEA1 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 17:14:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cse.cem@gmail.com) Received: by mail-it0-f66.google.com with SMTP id j185-v6so17828924ite.1 for ; Fri, 06 Jul 2018 10:14:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=rIg2B9QNYFiGeGzbMqe+O6qCWf0YLnAX2W78FjrIJzk=; b=FY68JMSJtZCQEIHzd0Pvu+j2CpLLDCxBExaYyOeO7eUWXI2ZtZbKSh+ucllA66ig2u 9G9Up4DBc5768S+D9rDaqR5HaYmk5UWNUyE1fP1u5QXaD84ItsovRy21DGUBWBAG2G1U uw0YkRK54qZ0uykYzJH933R07uEzM3a66Ht+DNjqYvxGeyPSjLLx1cQgTWlV3JnwOj2V xFjfuTPl+9i+eJidY+KDM7n64OAMYVbLeB3t1sy7VlhgIPwjZOQuuJrcjN/OuTL9ghue TWfTrTFREFkFO2JkAfXZ9qQES/3WwI8eIxffVjEGERtzAsrqlGgD7RL0sxr08wUa57K5 JhaQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E19mu9/xWPYrF6dIE2hksEEJTh+DV2x5aTvpmhgqHBWpQkdJ6oB uWDWGd8hi+6x6O6gq5DfFwlfT6+x X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpeXeTjyFvbe+OplDVoQB6sKOm5RHUNSYci2eIKC+6BdDn+SVP7p/7p65B/E8PRPKjp9BmF+JA== X-Received: by 2002:a24:e1c4:: with SMTP id n187-v6mr9008633ith.115.1530896864433; Fri, 06 Jul 2018 10:07:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-f41.google.com (mail-it0-f41.google.com. [209.85.214.41]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o20-v6sm3799228ioa.83.2018.07.06.10.07.44 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 06 Jul 2018 10:07:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-f41.google.com with SMTP id s7-v6so17376970itb.4 for ; Fri, 06 Jul 2018 10:07:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a24:ed4a:: with SMTP id r71-v6mr8742964ith.53.1530896864102; Fri, 06 Jul 2018 10:07:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: cem@freebsd.org Received: by 2002:a02:7e0a:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 10:07:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <93705.1530850590@kaos.jnpr.net> References: <84d9b7dd268a8cb64b51e4c49753bed8@localhost.localdomain> <93705.1530850590@kaos.jnpr.net> From: Conrad Meyer Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 10:07:43 -0700 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Differential] D16155: Add veriexec to loader To: "Simon J. Gerraty" Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2018 17:14:49 -0000 Hi Simon, On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 9:16 PM, Simon J. Gerraty wrote: > +freebsd-arch since I refuse to top-post via phab, and this all warrants > a discussion anyway... Please follow-up in Phabricator, or there is little point in using it. (I don't know where the "top-post" characterization comes from =E2=80=94 phabricator presents conversations top-to-bottom, in the same fashion as bottom posting.) Without getting into point-by-point specifics, I'll address a couple (meta-)issues of that come up multiple times in the conversation: 1. It's unclear in what context files are used (loader, userspace, and/or kernel). Some files in directories are built in multiple contexts, but not others, and the contexts aren't clear from the pathnames. That lead(s) to some confusion. For crypto review you really want clarity. It is almost certainly better to break this into several pieces. I.e., the mechanical build system changes to import bearssl can be separated out; you could maybe add loader-only verification code next, then bring in the kernel pieces, then userspace (as separate reviews). You know this work better than I do; how you choose to split it is up to you. But I would encourage smaller pieces. 2. A lot of the responses to my questions or comments are "JunOS does (or has done) it this way." Those are great rationales for Juniper continuing to use the existing design in its commercial product! But this isn't JunOS, and booting JunOS is useless to FreeBSD. If all you want to do with the changes is boot JunOS, I don't see any reason to include it in FreeBSD. If your concern is that the implementations will diverge slightly, well, they will. That's sort of the nature of being a downstream commercial product of FreeBSD. For anything removed in FreeBSD (i.e., obsolete SHA1 support, or even RSA/ECDSA signatures) that you need to retain in JunOS, you can still include that as a small local patch in JunOS. We do not want crufty 2003 crypto in FreeBSD. 3. It is an unreasonable response to question or critique to refer reviewers to a 60 minute video of a talk. If you addressed that specific question or concern in your talk, and want to provide *a specific timestamp and duration* in the video stream, great. I'm happy to watch a short, specific clip, if that is your preferred media for representing a few sentences. But I'm not going to sit down and watch a 60 minute talk just to dig for the response to a specific concern, which may or may not even be addressed. Thanks, Conrad From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jul 6 20:01:48 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AD5C10264A7 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 20:01:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sjg@juniper.net) Received: from mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com (mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com [67.231.152.164]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.pphosted.com", Issuer "thawte SHA256 SSL CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B80EF9493F; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 20:01:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sjg@juniper.net) Received: from pps.filterd (m0108162.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w66K0ZJT029640; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 13:01:47 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juniper.net; h=to : cc : subject : in-reply-to : references : from : mime-version : content-type : content-id : date : message-id; s=PPS1017; bh=w3hX5tpvBhMfY0bwYBWul4pPyPNSKDqW8xSv64V1LT4=; b=LuW2rGsrOhZJqwGpPGpVIv1VM6PuZu8mKv+TwfM+6dL0uWh03NlDmmdrMmK1d/3P3xPM J3R2eMTjXQ9JGBlS+ZLyM7dtuShm46ej3zHQUuSVSCDgYw6Bb0Em5ZzSPwu0sl4+9eYv 2YfV3koVZs9qiE9AqzaSNw8hmbWrvfSzhF8OjjvYVq1ys563uko7cC3pKvmUoh0J2ThI G0yax80Ve0Zgbegta3iie4P3FMQ32qpwUdskBe+ws+YQfFCK3tju2exDnB8J74PUV7DH knNDAcJojmRIToOD8Ldah7jkZ4FIr5YPbyvHz+QLMRxZgb5z/1Flw93wHgw92GxbFxEa 4w== Received: from nam02-sn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-sn1nam02lp0015.outbound.protection.outlook.com [216.32.180.15]) by mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2k2cex0ahq-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 06 Jul 2018 13:01:46 -0700 Received: from SN1PR0501CA0035.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:52fe::45) by BY2PR05MB616.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:2c45::27) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.930.13; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 20:01:44 +0000 Received: from CO1NAM05FT025.eop-nam05.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:f400:7e50::201) by SN1PR0501CA0035.outlook.office365.com (2a01:111:e400:52fe::45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.952.8 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 20:01:43 +0000 Received-SPF: SoftFail (protection.outlook.com: domain of transitioning juniper.net discourages use of 66.129.239.12 as permitted sender) Received: from P-EXFEND-EQX-01.jnpr.net (66.129.239.12) by CO1NAM05FT025.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.96.133) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.20.930.2 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 20:01:43 +0000 Received: from P-EXFEND-EQX-01.jnpr.net (10.104.8.54) by P-EXFEND-EQX-01.jnpr.net (10.104.8.54) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1367.3; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 13:01:21 -0700 Received: from P-EMFE01C-SAC.jnpr.net (172.24.192.43) by P-EXFEND-EQX-01.jnpr.net (10.104.8.54) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1367.3 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 13:01:21 -0700 Received: from p-mailhub01.juniper.net (10.47.226.20) by P-EMFE01C-SAC.jnpr.net (172.24.192.21) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.123.3; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 13:01:21 -0700 Received: from kaos.jnpr.net (kaos.jnpr.net [172.21.30.60]) by p-mailhub01.juniper.net (8.14.4/8.11.3) with ESMTP id w66K1KGk027927; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 13:01:20 -0700 (envelope-from sjg@juniper.net) Received: from kaos.jnpr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kaos.jnpr.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DCC16427F; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 13:01:20 -0700 (PDT) To: CC: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , Subject: Re: [Differential] D16155: Add veriexec to loader In-Reply-To: References: <84d9b7dd268a8cb64b51e4c49753bed8@localhost.localdomain> <93705.1530850590@kaos.jnpr.net> Comments: In-reply-to: Conrad Meyer message dated "Fri, 06 Jul 2018 10:07:43 -0700." 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Ip=[66.129.239.12]; Helo=[P-EXFEND-EQX-01.jnpr.net] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY2PR05MB616 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-07-06_06:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1806210000 definitions=main-1807060224 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2018 20:01:48 -0000 > 1. It's unclear in what context files are used (loader, userspace, > and/or kernel). Some files in directories are built in multiple > contexts, but not others, and the contexts aren't clear from the > pathnames. That lead(s) to some confusion. For crypto review you Originally all this was only for the loader. But then the need for a veriexec userland tool that would verify manifests before feeding the kernel was brought up. A subset of libve is needed for that. The Makefile.libsa.inc in both libbearssl and libve show what get's used by libsa - for loader. Of libve only vets.c (trust store) and the openpgp/ code (optionally) is needed for userland. > really want clarity. It is almost certainly better to break this into > several pieces. I.e., the mechanical build system changes to import > bearssl can be separated out; you could maybe add loader-only > verification code next, then bring in the kernel pieces, then > userspace (as separate reviews). You know this work better than I do; > how you choose to split it is up to you. But I would encourage > smaller pieces. Yes, the initial review was bigger than I'd expected - beyond the point at which a gui is helpful. I'm open to alternate arrangements - the current diff is a minimal re-org to fit into the new stand/ environment and present the work so others can provide feedback. > 2. A lot of the responses to my questions or comments are "JunOS does > (or has done) it this way." Those are great rationales for Juniper > continuing to use the existing design in its commercial product! But > this isn't JunOS, and booting JunOS is useless to FreeBSD. If all you Perhaps I've not made myself clear. Junos is a FreeBSD based OS, it's booting requirements are in some respects more complicated than a typical FreeBSD install - so it serves as a useful example. I shoud also point out that we always provide the kernel with an md_image for its initial rootfs - and that md_image is verified by the loader - obviating the need for any of this stuff in the kernel itself. Everything needed to get mac_veriexec initialized and enforced is in that md_image. If that's not done, then someone would need to consider adding code to kernel to verify init, and the rc scripts etc etc. > want to do with the changes is boot JunOS, I don't see any reason to > include it in FreeBSD. If your concern is that the implementations No, we could skip upstreaming this completely - but other vendors who also use FreeBSD have expressed interest. > will diverge slightly, well, they will. That's sort of the nature of That doesn't concern me at all. > being a downstream commercial product of FreeBSD. For anything > removed in FreeBSD (i.e., obsolete SHA1 support, or even RSA/ECDSA Sorry, if you want to support signature other methods you are welcome to add them. Many of those vendors interested in this work face the same limitations we do - needing to use US Govt approved algorithms. Perhaps you could enumerate some of the alternatives you'd support. You've veto'd pretty much everything here, so what do you think the modern world needs? Eg. X.509 is horrible - everyone agrees, but what is the alternative that offers the same flexibility? RSA and ECDSA are old fasioned? What are the proposed alternatives? and what libraries implement them that are small enough to incorporate into the loader? This project has been on my todo list for a decade, but was not viable until BearSSL showed up last year. OpenSSL was simply too big - the loader stops working somewhere around 500K (based on my experiments yesterday) and the OpenSSL code required is 3M+ --sjg From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jul 6 20:09:08 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFE4010271EF for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 20:09:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hackagadget@gmail.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54B8894D2C for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 20:09:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hackagadget@gmail.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 154C910271EA; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 20:09:08 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1E2010271E9 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 20:09:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hackagadget@gmail.com) Received: from mail-oi0-x229.google.com (mail-oi0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 52F5894D29; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 20:09:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hackagadget@gmail.com) Received: by mail-oi0-x229.google.com with SMTP id c6-v6so25646488oiy.0; Fri, 06 Jul 2018 13:09:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=h5foM1hFVBerepDRdY4dt/lPtKdstmpl5jCbksE5AF0=; b=Vm0xpzQE8RKBnOzDFwQj7y7vhE7i0oUNVy0Q2wSYAUTSr6CPhlikQb9602+ZrzLx2+ 06CU6BP3QlsSWBDOxPJhpH+Cxahl0918DvP2RdM4TxwIQxzCd1u/479bIx43gT0hU4Qp aCT3uonosTq6dw2VUsjanBUdCB29t4ACtBmLXFXlZUK+xh8cG0KXj28PUy5kUX5fHCQD 1/RKoExZBpz2eL7jZJaRJ5u/etndA6t/aTvJIkLVfDBmsvWMeTrnYrV+gyf/wif2EH+Z +Re9v4DiSGDyh2h2oK+51mCx1SWFryt6HFXTDoEG/syhjB8dGHV3zdCdHWDPNrtURlFQ te4w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=h5foM1hFVBerepDRdY4dt/lPtKdstmpl5jCbksE5AF0=; b=N4KpY1NNB1HsN1nGbeeCef4OuOYxfQAVH/OjLbpBLl1VNutlXVjPTFvUuTakaKCxeh UDXd/YkGRQHxEC1AHjQ45t1BLJIPSGitxNwQo2978HQDQNza7kFas7oCUP3hTRk5v6bs hbJN9pNe+tZu11y726e+ob8UV4Nm74f0mH4m3Y4dYSD8VYRjxRXz8VkfJ5ts5ukIfd0j unlgD00V2nVZqDOlwDslNqFH9oCJGQ5+MZqS/BFvdzxWrEQ7qVrAxdOK8Oa3jQHXn9x5 vMqLjhHl9G0V46x3JPXoMWyhzN+rnWIrR7g78ecJnDfwisugZT2fy9MgQSxwC8XTVjCi qjPA== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E1r6fisnOE1bZQ0ib/2Kr70S//V9gUyme7XLp+QHd/XHidsAvku UstPc3kdu23ndw8tKp1P4Da4sWbGoaBslLYjEUEBAI5B X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpcpU4xAQH59WWpB2QVanhmyl2vJkBIBrvK7vufz7qARjApfnzy6T8y8lxGQIoCJwDlIP74IJ6lmaDqMn9XgnWo= X-Received: by 2002:aca:c287:: with SMTP id s129-v6mr13342003oif.3.1530907746358; Fri, 06 Jul 2018 13:09:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a9d:b0e:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 13:09:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Stephen Kiernan Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 16:09:05 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Veriexec To: cem@freebsd.org Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2018 20:09:09 -0000 On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Conrad Meyer wrote: > On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 10:48 AM, Stephen J. Kiernan > wrote: > > On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 7:09 PM, Conrad Meyer wrote: > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> It's been two weeks since this went in broken. What's the status? > >> Has any progress been made on fixing the glaring issues? > > > > The backout commits for the veriexecctl bits (r335681) and the hooks > > into the build to compile the kernel modules (r335682) happened on > > 26 Jun 2018. > > I'm familiar with these commits, but was asking more about the topic > you glanced on below. (Additionally, I don't really like the use of > "revert" (as used in the commit message) or "backout" (here) to > describe the kernel changes. The bad code is still present, but > disabled by default.) > What would you prefer? It helps to provide an alternative if you wish to see someone potentially use it in the future. You simply stated you didn't like the use without providing an alternative. Note that the commit message for r335682 says "Partial revert of r335399 and r335400 " which is exactly what it is. It wasn't a full revert of the commits, it was only partially reverting them. > There's work in progress on fixing the issues with the meta-data store > > and its use. > > Ok. Can you elaborate on that progress? Is it happening in public? > Is there any kind of (loose) schedule in mind? > My goal was to have something by the beginning of next week, but work and life got too busy to be able to make much headway. Work has been around clocks in VMs, specifically with FreeBSD running under KVM. I'm resurrecting brianv's https://reviews.freebsd.org/D1435 review, with modifications, and have been in discussions with him since last week. As for the veriexec changes, I will be posting them as they are available to the following branch on GitHub: https://github.com/hackagadget/freebsd/tree/hackagadget/veriexec (Note this branch is currently out of date.) So right now my tentative schedule is to have first cut available for people to look at around 23 Jul 2018. Also, I want to put up a design overview on my website once I get all the maintenance done this weekend. -Steve From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jul 6 20:36:23 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C447102A11B for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 20:36:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cse.cem@gmail.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E316095D89 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 20:36:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cse.cem@gmail.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 9CD46102A117; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 20:36:22 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7544C102A116 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 20:36:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cse.cem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io0-f195.google.com (mail-io0-f195.google.com [209.85.223.195]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B1B595D87 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 20:36:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cse.cem@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io0-f195.google.com with SMTP id q19-v6so11927997ioh.11 for ; Fri, 06 Jul 2018 13:36:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=TxPCVe6RX1gC7P6JK23PjUGVii6aToaf0I3LuxJnKuY=; b=K6ttj2RG3Y/YGQpFRiM1fyPSZcwa+gTviRBU78OdAQ2iZcxxV0ZEYEnhbmhHgXr2L4 912hbtYhfWdnkK7KcpemUH+WI2+6hIVUzbypkj/bt8uU/S7yIHHy8v8UeKEslkJQvTI/ AL+2iLHD92EjpnDubpdE55vnhMYBLryRS+xso6up8C0wFT4qDWu6h9LKarjRJrtOOW1E XqTUt6qH6ehBBE4D1xvQoTZNRbZnAWaVF23Bj61XBS5+QA0q84B0eVRvHCo9Gq8rsjfc b0OD7qQUcgNTn6Heu28SMQlCF6sowsoffXd5cTOvbHtv5VpGdjK7w4VIshx61nyX261U vxWg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlGpXwo0UsT0GeJ1ruGRwQncSFBZ7+e3L6JK/kJK2BIeW4ZdenX/ sLlJ5BzTa82OgwQnbQge7emLZYEX X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpe92sHKSRVkS2UyjdFmeeE6EFBrxnfg5UWzbDwYoxFNR8pwjeWX+CymsAr6cxTy8mCy1i2YWg== X-Received: by 2002:a6b:e15:: with SMTP id 21-v6mr2424369ioo.149.1530908984804; Fri, 06 Jul 2018 13:29:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-f182.google.com (mail-io0-f182.google.com. [209.85.223.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u129-v6sm881085ita.5.2018.07.06.13.29.44 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 06 Jul 2018 13:29:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-f182.google.com with SMTP id q4-v6so11931353iob.2 for ; Fri, 06 Jul 2018 13:29:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a6b:b0c5:: with SMTP id z188-v6mr9583067ioe.220.1530908984252; Fri, 06 Jul 2018 13:29:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: cem@freebsd.org Received: by 2002:a02:7e0a:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 13:29:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Conrad Meyer Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 13:29:43 -0700 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Veriexec To: Stephen Kiernan Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2018 20:36:23 -0000 Hi Stephen, On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 1:09 PM, Stephen Kiernan wro= te: > On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Conrad Meyer wrote: >> (Additionally, I don't really like the use of >> "revert" (as used in the commit message) or "backout" (here) to >> describe the kernel changes. The bad code is still present, but >> disabled by default.) > > What would you prefer? It helps to provide an alternative if you wish to > see someone potentially use it in the future. You simply stated you didn'= t > like the use without providing an alternative. It's a minor language quibble =E2=80=94 don't worry about it too much. I would suggest "disable by default," for example. "Revert" and "backout" have a specific meaning that is approximately 'svn merge -c -NNNNNN'. > Note that the commit message for r335682 says "Partial revert of > r335399 and r335400" which is exactly what it is. It wasn't a full revert > of the commits, it was only partially reverting them. It removes 7 lines out of 2856 lines added in the two commits. I agree that you're technically correct =E2=80=94 it is a partial revert. Bu= t I think it would be more clear and accurate not to describe it as any kind of revert, given how little (0.25% of lines) was actually removed. >> > There's work in progress on fixing the issues with the meta-data store >> > and its use. >> >> Ok. Can you elaborate on that progress? Is it happening in public? >> Is there any kind of (loose) schedule in mind? > > My goal was to have something by the beginning of next week, but > work and life got too busy to be able to make much headway. ... > > As for the veriexec changes, I will be posting them as they are available > to the following branch on GitHub: > https://github.com/hackagadget/freebsd/tree/hackagadget/veriexec > (Note this branch is currently out of date.) > > So right now my tentative schedule is to have first cut available for > people to look at around 23 Jul 2018. Also, I want to put up a design > overview on my website once I get all the maintenance done this > weekend. Ok, that's great. Thanks. Best, Conrad From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jul 6 20:46:17 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8877102B15C for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 20:46:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hackagadget@gmail.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BEA2964F9 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 20:46:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hackagadget@gmail.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 2C548102B149; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 20:46:16 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF2EE102B142 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 20:46:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hackagadget@gmail.com) Received: from mail-oi0-x235.google.com (mail-oi0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 69001964F6; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 20:46:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hackagadget@gmail.com) Received: by mail-oi0-x235.google.com with SMTP id k12-v6so25742609oiw.8; Fri, 06 Jul 2018 13:46:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=XAASetulMzAxNa2CfSdlCPHnZ0+T+TpKSlPcLldQUdo=; b=UbcbBBqbhRj0KZnoyLCnuoYlb5ye6gjq9IFLKRSk6rVntqjhvKATrnGWDKgQy/O4yW Qg1igehLGi5Y9CXoULRk7QWy3CsFjo42XFdEehSKI+5DAhWAVLgtQaQ8IS/T8cQrLQtm xllyqfPfh0xJtC02+12M5NAg4bXN8i/1/9t4HccO1JN2NaCMqoI6lu2dsUTTEFUX0SPa J+2dWHUmPGXGgswBinA7f0N4r/Z4zGO0BX19Gr4g+yDWsX0AviFlzdQKc4neygLoqw86 isMcl/HVAh4vg17Xa3jSu+H87CjXpYF/srHKa9GaERQaoeBuWHWyX4NuVt+2vE4lPmAC bFmw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=XAASetulMzAxNa2CfSdlCPHnZ0+T+TpKSlPcLldQUdo=; b=FE7TtTure/L/NnANAduN/BQuOTR5SjfR/cjxdEPOBjxfX4jBHiPPPqpL3oF06FgYqG 8qpyKGTBb0A8lT1Ea0FHfSVY4EtoLFdUEsPYrMHwBYDPG1ukDa5Mieuki2qJKPfrKnWD i44XpDo/NZdYZZ/T9jXtoplpg9Ys1MFdEX/wEcHBoqBpQv01r8uWWnS5se8PllDRQXHn E/XDJ4Sruyl8/2XR7l6ytJTgz1zjWO7pkT0i8CpbLJqNBAMDRLxwKmZbxQrlNVPfkQXG H09EsqmAgYyBuAkgQ3dFsj6020Dm9uXNCTMY5xEywu/k0uVgH/FfbJaQOZ2oGrLnRKZS 32PA== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E0ImZbIaEQE2iV5XirEcpVpntb9TJP9RBorj5GCpPtaDwby+V25 GcE00XP5DHy6sNQg3uTvamHc6H5ezc3+17a8mL81Ww== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfBIMU86wNP8v2/sloqN7jTZEi4VMZ5AQ1VZ66YH3/eaO1LrPmyl8UwOfn9hSHs/1xm4hw2hae0w2nbQomVEic= X-Received: by 2002:aca:100f:: with SMTP id 15-v6mr14007118oiq.110.1530909974248; Fri, 06 Jul 2018 13:46:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a9d:b0e:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 13:46:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Stephen Kiernan Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 16:46:13 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Veriexec To: cem@freebsd.org Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2018 20:46:17 -0000 On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 4:29 PM, Conrad Meyer wrote: > Hi Stephen, > > On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 1:09 PM, Stephen Kiernan > wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Conrad Meyer wrote: > >> (Additionally, I don't really like the use of > >> "revert" (as used in the commit message) or "backout" (here) to > >> describe the kernel changes. The bad code is still present, but > >> disabled by default.) > > > > What would you prefer? It helps to provide an alternative if you wish t= o > > see someone potentially use it in the future. You simply stated you > didn't > > like the use without providing an alternative. > > It's a minor language quibble =E2=80=94 don't worry about it too much. I > would suggest "disable by default," for example. "Revert" and > "backout" have a specific meaning that is approximately 'svn merge -c > -NNNNNN'. > > > Note that the commit message for r335682 says "Partial revert of > > r335399 and r335400" which is exactly what it is. It wasn't a full reve= rt > > of the commits, it was only partially reverting them. > > It removes 7 lines out of 2856 lines added in the two commits. I > agree that you're technically correct =E2=80=94 it is a partial revert. = But I > think it would be more clear and accurate not to describe it as any > kind of revert, given how little (0.25% of lines) was actually > removed. > Fair enough. Thanks. -Steve