From owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sun Mar 4 08:40:33 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F453F41765 for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2018 08:40:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic304-21.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic304-21.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.179.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8BDEB7101B for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2018 08:40:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: baapCjEVM1m7en5pmvEcUVxalEJ9Mu.In6DNpBuN1FL1HbOY9MY4dmC_ZtFQWZs NQMuPeov3lW09_wQ7ZL.kXnaA4NVSWHm8USWb8pgXbiV9IPi6fyyL74ItXMnGO9HVwfBxP.Zx9pM VgzI7sCGBgqptHciW7yAa1mzq0RrjpGCpYW7VWdC40w7XziU3qKIsHrmtUrKJuuCmrZRnSAkj6tp Ca6gwB9b2sGiIFppk2i_fvczi0XYEt8eQnivKWuz3SIvGMaqwMO0p59qzM5UCzKQZmsI8J6vs..r EtImdEueeMohzYVwUUVvW4eNb6RgDGJ6OoWg5YAseFHOxeUxZDu3JmkEITiNZsdFWMTzdel7VqNv mjaZ1fdm6.7xlyeZE7gS98doKLR9rvQU86_CnWEQd5cN8lgXbLa1Et4px65hk5lg7H0_hcL0FR_k h6G87J7Hf5ReCnNqmSi4.acNhR8DgavjVXDL2AAPC9XPzu4YAp4RPzadkTPf9TbKtR_tOrHqS_dB 3wwNKWlopz5ZLSeWoaIyaMX1Q8dJIK_XUexGpECbJIJsN3znztAc- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic304.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 4 Mar 2018 08:40:30 +0000 Received: from smtp164.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (EHLO archlinux.localdomain) ([46.228.39.127]) by smtp408.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (JAMES SMTP Server ) with ESMTPA ID ea1454d61f0bbfcd7a442b0abdd4afe9 for ; Sun, 04 Mar 2018 08:40:27 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2018 09:40:27 +0100 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's politics problem Message-ID: <20180304094027.4c1931af@archlinux.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <20180304004826.77f6b1d5@archlinux.localdomain> References: <6d2JakAYeM2E8PxcTzAulsl0FCU-76lOjBF_KOn-HtspxRbrGVkZWKi0K2BwErZJnQ3eEbuLp4eOUOhehhBwRfgu3Q9nABfOd5uzv1Mi1ZA=@protonmail.com> <20180304004826.77f6b1d5@archlinux.localdomain> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.16.0git24 (GTK+ 2.24.32; x86_64-arch-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2018 08:40:33 -0000 Btw. for each example when political correctness was offended regarding feminism and/or racism and/or any gender related issue appeared on a BSD or Linux related mailing list, I will provide trillions of examples when Godwin's law, bikeshedding and swearing was an issue, not to mention top posting and HTML mails. I'm a white man who has got platonic feminist girl friends, but non of them is histrionic and/or suffering from delusions. After reading those geek feminism opinions I get the impression that they aren't feminists or in any way intreasted in commonsensible gender politics, obviously they tend to be radical, offending their own high ideals. Psychopathologic bullshit is counterproductive to reach social progress, such as equality of transgender, women and men. It's a shame, insulting all those people who worhed hard to increase such a social progress. Since I'm one who wants such a progress, I feel offended by geek feminism, because it could damage decades of hard work for equal rights. From owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sun Mar 4 17:58:38 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F78EF485CB for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2018 17:58:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic306-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic306-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.176.206]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0065F86613 for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2018 17:58:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: eyrOwDwVM1mafKCn6nqiDNK4VlaMlVa8nbLVC06LNx0VHlFQdbW2LZYiGSf8Jmh Hscg5wil7x1JE1bYeoGR2rydcXbXm.W7TlWZyxPUpd6vH.nLOiPc3coweavJItcnEp31Qk2bFX_e Sso6prdb8ukoRsinVVbqGQ2PfJbZAU3TeTed83mkh7D4f_VrZAbYsfhra_VCByfclpMP0h8x70IK aawycRJmvDwwsmb5iMikWJGKKtymxTI992.XgvUbQmD4vTK1SBt3sLtz2jmZ6aM1xoByoeq4NTMz G_6i0W9JikbH_JyGqyohbsF6aZUZgk5QnhMzF7U.1aAX6_rWJMM2BVoVjLDj.NE6MuIa6Nou50CQ GQKnOWj6Kjn_Q3yHbKm83F6aujoluA6D8lhU3YQFRycHrgfEh40NdMw1MSCkI73pxVpv_tr8hN4U QnvV0qDJyKP7ZMIdflhk4SbDg.kA9eYsGgTPZ0wdcYVFkOEaQhsuze0tx_hI1.JheC_zVQmteEpX 9xQMAQAqL4.9t2WijsuSgh.V65FoDKtE6KVzSpLqsPWCruKJYoAKQORnqiME- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic306.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 4 Mar 2018 17:58:30 +0000 Received: from smtp159.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (EHLO archlinux.localdomain) ([46.228.39.122]) by smtp401.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (JAMES SMTP Server ) with ESMTPA ID 6cf193b19ac6a6eae106c3096fd3efc7 for ; Sun, 04 Mar 2018 17:58:26 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2018 18:58:29 +0100 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's politics problem Message-ID: <20180304185829.342b1f67@archlinux.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <20180304094027.4c1931af@archlinux.localdomain> References: <6d2JakAYeM2E8PxcTzAulsl0FCU-76lOjBF_KOn-HtspxRbrGVkZWKi0K2BwErZJnQ3eEbuLp4eOUOhehhBwRfgu3Q9nABfOd5uzv1Mi1ZA=@protonmail.com> <20180304004826.77f6b1d5@archlinux.localdomain> <20180304094027.4c1931af@archlinux.localdomain> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.16.0git24 (GTK+ 2.24.32; x86_64-arch-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2018 17:58:38 -0000 PPS: It's not my intention to offend geek feminism, it just reminds me of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.R. , basically good ideas compromised by ideology. From owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sun Mar 4 18:01:14 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE531F489CE for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2018 18:01:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic305-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic305-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.177.82]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 419E38694D for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2018 18:01:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: TMoWOTEVM1lxLjmPHggWPEzI3BCJItRRslZr5CnFV_hDxjBoXEYrIDgsNZ.Y.A4 owL1QIsSPAdzs6vH0CJ24Y4a3CnPSSwPvShTCj7b9b9C3oaQnmHTi5.JD3w8lQrlNsORrV63km6a 1_6ltmvHmE3hbBck.3y8eg8K6ot10ZvMxRN3LgENj5pPVJtJpqWTWY7UCgKDB6D9utEiFXfUuNa9 r4mIIG9CnL989OTlKti5b9VXpBmMaitfR1315LqI2dqRLBPoQvB7M.aF3Bnv3_8rqF5JPt0fjJNO 6zmGhYSUXR9LRHBYMhqXGrkaJD.xP7chkviAX_gw89x5QS1xRph1kYxrtCMvLt2029ekN_czMCD8 v8cXEcvuxDLoQFlggUSZzhCFNWJC_GjIcGrFQODDI_RPx1ZBe67SajJIca6y_VYgZIbD6P7tmu5x A66eaBRSqWbZsuGQU9IMW756US6WX90zR9BBvlmI6AL1VwkA_s6q2X5NrbqruoLFYBufcv_yB1aO X32_SNIS2ohYY2i9iOmGQkqjQl8wtiFLfoWG948OM12nN9IgeMwr7AOvAImDf Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic305.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 4 Mar 2018 18:01:12 +0000 Received: from smtp165.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (EHLO archlinux.localdomain) ([46.228.39.32]) by smtp411.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (JAMES SMTP Server ) with ESMTPA ID e6b6f7c0afc249243b3825d627394089 for ; Sun, 04 Mar 2018 18:01:09 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2018 19:01:12 +0100 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's politics problem Message-ID: <20180304190112.780c6811@archlinux.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <20180304185829.342b1f67@archlinux.localdomain> References: <6d2JakAYeM2E8PxcTzAulsl0FCU-76lOjBF_KOn-HtspxRbrGVkZWKi0K2BwErZJnQ3eEbuLp4eOUOhehhBwRfgu3Q9nABfOd5uzv1Mi1ZA=@protonmail.com> <20180304004826.77f6b1d5@archlinux.localdomain> <20180304094027.4c1931af@archlinux.localdomain> <20180304185829.342b1f67@archlinux.localdomain> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.16.0git24 (GTK+ 2.24.32; x86_64-arch-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2018 18:01:14 -0000 On Sun, 4 Mar 2018 18:58:29 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: >PPS: It's not my intention to offend geek feminism, it just reminds me >of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.R. , basically good ideas >compromised by ideology. Tricky link :D "People H.R. (born 1956), lead singer of American band Bad Brains" From owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mon Mar 5 08:27:12 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 314ECF3D41B for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 08:27:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vbotka@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wm0-x230.google.com (mail-wm0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 993906B5C5 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 08:27:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vbotka@gmail.com) Received: by mail-wm0-x230.google.com with SMTP id t6so13712130wmt.5 for ; Mon, 05 Mar 2018 00:27:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references :organization:mime-version; bh=TSnKsKgyu6XrAdiFfplYqpCGWn4QKlUnCsA3gC4ETA0=; b=VbzTzq+I1n22UrG8HhoSKvUrYdFMki3GqvriZ7RrpW6l2F1E1Sna9EmdJyz+aA9cjw hobNTvCEaJFG51fFOFDW1eVTtogpEijz5TD7EOQ4yrkpA9cSkmlTwBzZnt0BLIiWY3+B 10jCAEhTGQIBU46LsCTtHTexICArZNVqE3z18VB2V0GPDwEip2tENLPEajwRiYjfu04x IXbHMmnLz48AIerd2j6codfyhooixogOUWGxFCnssn9PjPXMZK+RyPCCu4xGIO26CFs2 mLtb18CcUBWcHI/fU9dP7Sg/tYRJn02jNcf50tOmU6Rknct+NCdwkPklo2IwHd0jberr vY7Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:organization:mime-version; bh=TSnKsKgyu6XrAdiFfplYqpCGWn4QKlUnCsA3gC4ETA0=; b=U4nMThbQv64dJ/x5dkIhBhriL2K+JlftQ6TvZpbf0bkDEDFh8xdQr+X4Lw7G0rx46j vyzWSiIT+ZYc10unFxrVmOFSDAlkt8qMjsAab4MJ4+wN8Kiyr6lZRKxHgartqwxMhAHn 6Y/UNE7tYJ6cqzSHpSnrNKS0gf8hziHtT1CfoBl8RPot7eP0KpBR8G+b8pBpXfVQ9g3G 8KFtB7IzQ0LPTLBkZVLcp2qHpZ9Kn5clLorUGLscikEusLNaUbS/MME7wnuBLibeghyT xdKyz4gn1mndScSK6wIFPKfqzgBGXlJMZxplNyf6kptxKhfscR4VRrZHWNcgz/TgeFPP ilxQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7EK+AKB/Vm7uAouYa+ulmkIhIW8HJyAMgmIyNiSINuFEA24z4P2 OsTQwUj1RRrsHSqt0g2iDagjVT1K X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELusXz9DwzW82T6EEZIAcXjnewYhIhxXD74cggZrAY1D7gBteQ/2FnQhTOd0Od0NFwmwby+BTw== X-Received: by 10.28.126.20 with SMTP id z20mr7197723wmc.152.1520238430467; Mon, 05 Mar 2018 00:27:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from planb.netng.org (ip-89-103-146-20.net.upcbroadband.cz. [89.103.146.20]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i12sm14513676wrc.28.2018.03.05.00.27.08 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Mon, 05 Mar 2018 00:27:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2018 09:27:07 +0100 From: Vladimir Botka To: Franco Fichtner Cc: Jeff Roberson , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem Message-ID: <20180305092707.0f55ce55@planb.netng.org> In-Reply-To: <534485E2-7E07-4438-AD04-B4D9D1F90978@lastsummer.de> References: <534485E2-7E07-4438-AD04-B4D9D1F90978@lastsummer.de> Organization: na X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.15.0-dirty (GTK+ 2.24.31; i686-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/lB07bI/BDdbG+hVjNV/MyRB"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 08:27:12 -0000 --Sig_/lB07bI/BDdbG+hVjNV/MyRB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 07:40:48 +0100 Franco Fichtner wrote: > > On 4. Mar 2018, at 10:02 PM, Jeff Roberson wr= ote: > > I would urge everyone to be calm and patient. This is an important dia= log and it's bound to be bumpy. I also strongly urge people to refrain fro= m discussing it further on technical lists where it is counter productive a= nd unwelcome. =20 > So you are saying "shut up" and be patient like we've never been patient = in > the last couple of years? That's bold, but unfortunately also consistent= MO. > Cheers, > Franco He said you should refrain from discussing it on technical lists. You might want to consider freebsd-chat. -vlado --Sig_/lB07bI/BDdbG+hVjNV/MyRB Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJanP9bAAoJEJDRmRKO1E8BNIMH+gKp1G93Qo/Q9bpYuxZLloZm KdGlfODxmjeWDUD0FBK/7wTdv0zQ3czI930pE5OaS9gqUYMzCtfvpskQj/Neu0FP ErxaL2Dd9ISiT4VIvdI78ahP4A89l8Y6oIyDlMjn+GXxInPJcYoRyHLgkNjWPem8 kHiwf0Bl0YEgwDuEoRixskgEyrBZteDiN6py0svtcxWK4Lh4RWIpty75wCuL+AtJ W3TIEh9dVG90C+WGl+Y1b9ejh7y5su8AoVZ+Ij4dJ9n6UOY7D1H0jXTBk927DTWl fP358yXa3bUMUEooAbZNE3R2kmvoSNlaGw5aULz2Ld9oZUW9zV1GWcZb5UAKbXI= =yMip -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/lB07bI/BDdbG+hVjNV/MyRB-- From owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mon Mar 5 23:50:30 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BD4FF3518A for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 23:50:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jroberson@jroberson.net) Received: from mail-pf0-x235.google.com (mail-pf0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B9A6973CFB for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 23:50:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jroberson@jroberson.net) Received: by mail-pf0-x235.google.com with SMTP id x1so6085514pfh.7 for ; Mon, 05 Mar 2018 15:50:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jroberson-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id:references :user-agent:mime-version; bh=KmNrG8sA4ZRF86vM/oOAe6JwAhgQ7TtR1dtwlU2C+bY=; b=MTE5Irn/xmbFHUrhjDTWotJTTWbza3FcZvRKGYMachkXQAzqVMR2ccqPZS0eim/erv D3SaUrmUMRPvD1h+KhFXL2fR8E3jq1v8qh3ppoJTw5qwnmHx9/L6i2vX4Qfmma9DyhDQ hmH0kBavCnzKtoG7d8fJu83Q980zs3bqT5Uf2Vg4MdPhBbr2+HiZCuHxHBc2f6cG65iq GLQN40A7dRSZvmDyyaHu/eLY3Xq916/93qDFvFthScNDNT7jk1eZy8GYGCv6q39bDwRI 9NyhsptSMBAUeyrSlglGvikyjtQyXYlbBLltudWf84Yml91sBrBgXGxhtQkQt/kpaFlK FCUg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id :references:user-agent:mime-version; bh=KmNrG8sA4ZRF86vM/oOAe6JwAhgQ7TtR1dtwlU2C+bY=; b=P+Yj2jOcy2en9NlBK41fIUEnXUsho/kpdBypBPpsB3Z5Jsaj3//7Jrjh0JPgsywZ85 LZLV5hcWlCVITkczkenKgI5wI8juGoMCysLVCLk8qxZDLspIfiUptFGEIhYvyCk0idpu 3CArLOwJXgiK7lSZr75/DP+mzgEctxGn411fjIj92OQTR58iCcnITS4d3SjFi6yGD1kR qw+MbN3sOSbGoSy59TJXYYJvZn/+1RAzMF7QhTQQS/z5ZTrmkw2ultqjIUs7XhRYvcA2 KNxGEfuhoJO3ldwIzkE9WBRzpU29LQjyof2zDt7DvMDqMoHzu056hR7ZrbcxdP8O4YS8 2/+g== X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPCKL9bVn9/DLfNecZsaCgE0EMn14SJrLK5eMdxbSPTdEGhvvnMC C8qbE6TQkqiJytGRnejxgW9/EQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELtLurX5kU381jzW4MxrANLmlqHCQ/+BEVsq1r/YqWWiGrW3uRuaxNgAXOAizpZoXAix1FU5xA== X-Received: by 10.167.128.143 with SMTP id v15mr17074944pff.36.1520293828499; Mon, 05 Mar 2018 15:50:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from rrcs-66-91-135-210.west.biz.rr.com (rrcs-66-91-135-210.west.biz.rr.com. [66.91.135.210]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d186sm28934539pfd.1.2018.03.05.15.50.26 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 05 Mar 2018 15:50:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2018 13:49:47 -1000 (HST) From: Jeff Roberson X-X-Sender: jroberson@desktop To: Vladimir Botka cc: Franco Fichtner , timmcgrawfan@protonmail.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem In-Reply-To: <20180305092707.0f55ce55@planb.netng.org> Message-ID: References: <534485E2-7E07-4438-AD04-B4D9D1F90978@lastsummer.de> <20180305092707.0f55ce55@planb.netng.org> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21 (BSF 202 2017-01-01) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 23:50:30 -0000 On Mon, 5 Mar 2018, Vladimir Botka wrote: > Hi, > > On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 07:40:48 +0100 > Franco Fichtner wrote: > >>> On 4. Mar 2018, at 10:02 PM, Jeff Roberson wrote: >>> I would urge everyone to be calm and patient. This is an important dialog and it's bound to be bumpy. I also strongly urge people to refrain from discussing it further on technical lists where it is counter productive and unwelcome. > >> So you are saying "shut up" and be patient like we've never been patient in >> the last couple of years? That's bold, but unfortunately also consistent MO. >> Cheers, >> Franco > > He said you should refrain from discussing it on technical lists. You might > want to consider freebsd-chat. Thank you. Chat seems like an ok list for this until we're told otherwise by administrators. I am not personally subscribed to -chat so please keep me in the cc if you wish to keep hearing from me. I urge again that we refrain from inflammatory language and hyperbole. I'm sorry that people are frustrated. I not infrequently find the project frustrating. My urge for patience is because this dialog is very fresh and still being worked out. Whatever else you have been patient for we have only had the new coc for less than a month. I think there are some misconceptions about how the project is run and what the core team does that might help clear up some confusion. Firstly, the project is governed by its members. These are people with a vested interest who have contributed to the project. We are not governed by the users. The conversation is challenging enough with nearly 400 participants. I assure you that whatever your view point is, it is likely already represented in that 400. If you would like to be part of the conversation I urge you to work on obtaining a commit bit. I will also assure you that various project members are in touch with the community via reddit, slashdot, freebsd forums, freebsd mailing lists, twitter, etc. It can be challenging to determine who is a legitimate part of the community and who is an outside interloper capitalizing on a political moment, for this reason among many, we are self-governing. Core is an administrative group elected from volunteers. It is not their responsibility to set priorities for technical development, accept patches, or even strictly speaking be community liaisons. We might hope that they take on some of these mantles of their own volition but that is up to the individual. Their charter is more or less administrative work, governance. Regarding patches, I don't know what subsystem they involve or if there is an active maintainer or what steps you've taken. It is all frustratingly ad-hoc at times as it is a volunteer effort and it's up to individuals to take up these responsibilities. I again urge everyone who can contribute and maintain a standard of civil discussion to seek a commit bit. Contribution to FreeBSD can be both personally and professionally rewarding. Regards, Jeff > > -vlado > From owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Tue Mar 6 19:42:01 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47C7DF2767E for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 19:42:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lazlofalconi@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lf0-x231.google.com (mail-lf0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B79C487081 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 19:42:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lazlofalconi@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lf0-x231.google.com with SMTP id 37so30268761lfs.7 for ; Tue, 06 Mar 2018 11:42:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=MfseUDC/FxM5XegXL+GnwV6YsT003LpFVO/MJI+2QAk=; b=hfLS8nhVQ6z3QSNx54iHdwNfev8BcfzEDhJExYgVTZaoXwyYrjy/14bNW2Wk6o1G6N WxK79Ck8wqSHQMFq0cZyHVh9hspQyzrZwwvjfht71CviBsO/qbrL1IQlXFJjopE0PYBa W5e7FOc2EWRHjQa0QT/lVdeRCQOzmkIG4Ektd0WNc3wbm9dvrGHS+dY8qmZvZUgLCPnr 2IoPA8AjwWY08QDfjDbrTuE9lg+oVgGrr+LGnPhqMbz6dMh1gdzf691xurpHWYgPyt2c Ls2+U6wP+4p4D9UXtOoVLdZbjgEhFJaefNhlZBYSXuUzGzTcaEL+zRJIR13iYdue/gWg etyA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=MfseUDC/FxM5XegXL+GnwV6YsT003LpFVO/MJI+2QAk=; b=QN5vL8V3Cj9DuYo6HFXDVB3w0N1ZF13OxhG3KzBU9B0n8j5t1i7n9Fqb/wxIfcufmw IjRBLIJFiInO7uuPx1Die9FLYrPSAYYOYgNrJKXbqVv/mf0X0nTLwCtt5eXSyro0C6wR dEIh/1QgLdfJ36CCYGF1y5U8ifhnKMZaLNV4h6rnUyN+nlmudwWDb+AsyN9fHMN+vM9C a5OjA3U9BRAptWs4p8crz/Oa0XvVYBrgXFR/E3GawGgRW5dvZgCyY+mpqxjPvvvWuO71 xutmTm4o/sBj3OV+5T2bn2/IsnyHg1rVl5ckS9Qo0MfkP0O11Xq0Kj5sVyUXQSIy+f+V eaPQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7FcIY7Vh8ufCzxGWr8MzYoMUEzTejSDyZ3EsEEMXYISBJCvJRH6 D9lKYEWOibsEhjUHbS7sCqNE/j/F/m+8+Gpg47Y= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELvO6T7AGFH/S6wyAnuz0cAftMkRyqE9q02KugqEf7vX6Ju/nd/W844bE4d35HRhtWRdfmgrq8JOvj7dhXSzU7E= X-Received: by 10.25.87.137 with SMTP id l131mr4459655lfb.135.1520365318651; Tue, 06 Mar 2018 11:41:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <534485E2-7E07-4438-AD04-B4D9D1F90978@lastsummer.de> <20180305092707.0f55ce55@planb.netng.org> In-Reply-To: From: Lazlo Falconi Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2018 19:41:47 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem To: Jeff Roberson Cc: Vladimir Botka , Franco Fichtner , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, timmcgrawfan@protonmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2018 19:42:01 -0000 >It can be challenging to determine who is a legitimate part of the community and who is an outside interloper capitalizing on a political moment I think this is the heart of the issue. It's interesting how there was all this discussion about the CoC heading in this direction all over the mailing lists, on twitter, etc, and only now that it's been imposed, are all these opponents coming out of the woodwork saying they were never asked. We get all these comments about how the new CoC encourages feminism (protip: anyone who instantly bristles at the term probably lack an understanding of it) and enforces a bunch of, in their opinions, non-issues. But they were issues. That's why the CoC had to change. As far as I can tell, the new CoC only discourages the kinds of speech that never had any business being in any discussion of FreeBSD, or any technical project, in the first place. It's kind of a shame we got caught up this whole discussion, but I guess it goes to show that it was never about ethics in games journalism. From owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Thu Mar 8 02:31:24 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E336F4B0A7; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 02:31:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from geheimnisse.atl@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qt0-x230.google.com (mail-qt0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BC8917E142; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 02:31:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from geheimnisse.atl@gmail.com) Received: by mail-qt0-x230.google.com with SMTP id j4so5142588qth.8; Wed, 07 Mar 2018 18:31:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=2z2MxKTg+YDWi7SQJMIuTWKQFPJyNo5LdPU/ZSfw5oE=; b=kLiFiUkSFi4VZNCdsUsD6yU8Gw8ZMWbk80F8T0BsIWDu+OZe0RAMJtP9l3WfbIJdWr m2dz7EJQzDlTOT8CHg2d5xSTYHjsk3mzLj00bzxfS0NPKvnDVn5CiR0XPNbmQaz0djM2 8tLGZ1eEEJ6zbeclfFxfEXG8NoesAV0xW6hfGXYqmA4NGeoO8WG6ByKTwdIzCJ9nXrxb oH2L4uQ6qbeTW/O8QJrWibvuj/0PMNABp/Y0Kl/I7Ly1tnzuwMVVwYLnKqhCVP3j/6QO gPRxOysKI3UMjtWaTw1W8HiNhaMec5nKXSbEcNc+p+U20uR5GMp6yeyAT+63Fc6jNr10 aa7w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=2z2MxKTg+YDWi7SQJMIuTWKQFPJyNo5LdPU/ZSfw5oE=; b=OfZnp8Y9z/ofUhvKw1md067lP1HOt20Bnz1o3kpwmfRqqaf3/0F9Tjb1mcWfF6m+Jy Qp5EC0TPOzCK1M6sTRiIFGXc3nllLcnnaMt7RergNgpO4htEUNPlNdeOqWG4IsbIVfU9 dWpu3YmlATPtR3PfOLlDlEecAaFUNcas5Xgu6jpI2mPoFmgQI2cv0SiToy3tS4bgtrZc t0Z/7gXgsXzTkS2CZ6xol8pNJ8S3KFLcg8LwDEbSI4V5y9XdZhTl2gPvIQriHy/rydW2 hivnGDxdnP+nH9UOai31Eh/MjCMUqwg+ZvUirAsQFTiATK+0l6xZ5kTGzClB6xJ7+pdz QhkA== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7FiSA2eo+YRDpJRewTqWycU8/pQl3bnVJ8B/LpuXPLLLly1bjlL WOZmhmbOiy7BsZProOPpVHfYqg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELtGvlm4qVI8mTbeIhsgtTvwvQ4627Uu3Hu8dzJtrAU+ZlH7yCv16nYCKsKipMreOgfrxxxj8g== X-Received: by 10.237.32.135 with SMTP id 7mr37243320qtb.287.1520476283261; Wed, 07 Mar 2018 18:31:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from dunkelheit ([23.226.128.30]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m3sm11795203qtg.57.2018.03.07.18.31.21 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 07 Mar 2018 18:31:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 21:31:13 -0500 From: Geheimnisse To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem Message-ID: <20180308023113.GA51685@dunkelheit> References: <20180306020515.GA4294@lonesome.com> <201803071144.w27BiLeb086509@fire.js.berklix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201803071144.w27BiLeb086509@fire.js.berklix.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.3 (2018-01-21) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 02:31:24 -0000 I really cannot wait until all of the people flipping their shit about the new CoC go back to not tending to their neck hair and tipping their fedoras. Oh, excuse me, trilby hats or whatever they may be. Seriously, the new CoC is the opposite of news. Unless you plan to harrass others online, it will not affect you. Go back to doing whatever it is you were doing before you went on this crusade. Nobody cares aside from a handful of neckbeards, and nobody will care in a couple of weeks because it won't affect anything. Mailed under an a pseudonym account because these alt-right types like to stalk and harrass people. From owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Thu Mar 8 04:27:10 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D09A4F2FA80; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 04:27:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fiorello.g.baumgartner@protonmail.com) Received: from mail4.protonmail.ch (mail4.protonmail.ch [185.70.40.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.protonmail.ch", Issuer "QuoVadis Global SSL ICA G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 59B2F83633; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 04:27:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fiorello.g.baumgartner@protonmail.com) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2018 23:27:02 -0500 To: "freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org" , "developers@freebsd.org" , "core@freebsd.org" , "conduct@freebsd.org" , "cperciva@FreeBSD.org" , "benno@FreeBSD.org" , "freebsd-chat@freebsd.org" From: "Fiorello G. Baumgartner" Reply-To: "Fiorello G. Baumgartner" Subject: Issues and proposed improvements to the FreeBSD CoC Message-ID: <8G3yCScLqt6g3K9hPIJ8Jb6gMp3uj5ugWk18BWCo7pRKeTVs5qiZ5VrzfuT4H-NqihihVS9VuKJyo4CyFbDXtm3DzoLrlVcI-lTcFiqUd1U=@protonmail.com> Feedback-ID: z_eJKcSaQUfpdvOyIA_UH3a_imiLilCmjWZMYQdpZ1YnEfrD0COFiQrUhGhI24059DHTxfBmjxGUde9ZCOfXVQ==:Ext:ProtonMail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM,T_FILL_THIS_FORM_SHORT autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.1 (2015-04-28) on mail.protonmail.ch X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 04:27:10 -0000 Hello, I am a long-time FreeBSD user who has observed much of the controversy arou= nd the recently released CoC, and I would like to comment on it. While I do= n=E2=80=99t oppose the concept of a CoC, I think the current revision has s= ignificant issues that I think should be addressed and will outline here:= =C2=A0 1. It unnecessarily wades into contentious political territory, for example= by using language characteristic of particular ideological factions that c= ould be interpreted as endorsement of or indirect affiliation with those fa= ctions. FreeBSD is a technical project, and it should endeavor to avoid pol= itical entanglements that are far outside of its mission of developing an o= pen source operating system. Such entanglements are a distraction and also = exclusionary. As an example of why this is a problem, the CoC committee could have releas= ed a semantically similar document that used Christian terms and language t= o communicate the same messages as the new CoC, and it=E2=80=99s obvious th= at would have been unwise, controversial, and that non-Christians might tak= e issue. It=E2=80=99s the same with this document. The CoC should be rewrit= ten in the blandest, most uncontroversial language possible that communicat= es the indented meaning. Using different language would also have the benefit of making the document= easier for nonnative English speakers to understand, and spare them the ta= sk of familiarizing themselves with the neologisms and jargon of a North Am= erican political ideology. 2. The document text appears to have been presented as a fiat accompli to t= he project. No drafts appear to have been widely circulated for feedback pr= ior to release. For something as core to a community as how it should condu= ct itself, this is unacceptable. It appears that the reason for this is that the teams responsible judged it= as too difficult to gain consensus about the text from the wider project, = so it opted to avoid that task. However, in a more democratic, collaborativ= e project like FreeBSD this is a dereliction of duty. The political labor o= f working towards a consensus is a burden of project leadership and must be= done. To that end, the core team and the CoC committee should officially and open= ly solicit feedback from the wider developer group on the present CoC, hone= stly listen to that feedback, incorporate it into a new revision, and prese= nt that revision for approval by the wider group. In the interests of openn= ess and transparency, it=E2=80=99s preferable that the feedback not be pres= ented privately and that discussions about it appear in the open for other = project members to see. 3. This is a much more specific criticism, but the first example of harassm= ent needs to be revised to not exclude so many groups. I suggest that examp= le be replaced with the *exact text* used in the Geek Feminism CoC, which I= =E2=80=99ll quote here: > Offensive comments related to gender, gender identity and expression, sex= ual orientation, disability, mental illness, neuro(a)typicality, physical a= ppearance, body size, age, race, or religion. I would also be fine if that was revised a little bit to =E2=80=9Coffensive= comments or comments that reinforce negative stereotypes,=E2=80=9D which m= ay get more at the intent of the CoC committee's modifications. The current language, which appears to be original to the FreeBSD CoC, spec= ifically does not apply to harassing comments directed at many genders, sex= ual orientations, races, religions, etc. due to its use of the term "system= atic oppression." There=E2=80=99s been some speculation that =E2=80=9Charas= sment includes but is not limited to=E2=80=9D covers such comments, but tha= t=E2=80=99s unacceptably vague. It must be made *clear* that harassment inv= olving *any* gender, race, religion, etc. is unacceptable. This is a major defect that must be corrected. The sorts of harassing comme= nts that the current text doesn=E2=80=99t explicitly forbid occur frequentl= y on social media. 4. The attribution should either be removed or language added stating that = FreeBSD does not endorse the viewpoint of =E2=80=9CGeek Feminism=E2=80= =9D or its ideas; besides the ones it has explicitly borrowed. This is clos= ely related to my point #1 above. 5. This is my least important comment, but the *hugs* example should be exc= ised. This example is too-easily mocked and this kind of behavior is a good= example of the kind of thing that should be covered under =E2=80=9Charassm= ent includes but is not limited to=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D It=E2=80=99s puzzling why this example was included while the glaring defec= ts in the example I covered in my point #3 were unaddressed. 6. The new CoC does not actually cover how one should conduct itself in the= project. It's really just anti-harassment policy with some prefatory plat= itudes about diversity and inclusion. That's really lacking. It should be revised to provide affirmative advice, not just negative examp= les. This could include something like =E2=80=9CFreeBSD is a technical proj= ect. It=E2=80=99s recommended that you focus on technical and project topic= s in your interactions, and avoid other subjects.=E2=80=9D In these regard, the original FreeBSD CoC was far better than the current r= evision. It should be consulted and much of its language salvaged and incor= porated into the new CoC. For reference, that version can be found here: https://web.archive.org/web/20171222235533/https://www.freebsd.org/internal= /code-of-conduct.html 7. Scope should be clarified and reasonable. The current phrasing of= =E2=80=A6 > This code of conduct applies to all spaces used by the FreeBSD Project, i= ncluding our mailing lists, IRC channels, and social media, both online and= off. =E2=80=A6is too ambiguous and may be over-broad. For instance, if someone i= s active on twitter, FreeBSD shouldn=E2=80=99t claim to be policing everyth= ing they=E2=80=99ve ever said there to anyone, because FreeBSD once used tw= itter. The risk I=E2=80=99m trying to avoid here is the kind of harassment = where someone with a grudge goes on a dirt digging expedition in order to e= xploit process. ---- These issues aren=E2=80=99t moot points. I=E2=80=99ve donated to the founda= tion and for some time I=E2=80=99ve toyed with the idea of trying to volunt= eer for the project, probably to help with scut-work due to the fact that m= y skills aren=E2=80=99t very aligned with it (I=E2=80=99m not very handy wi= th C, for instance). While I=E2=80=99ll continue to use FreeBSD, the introd= uction of this revision of the CoC means that it=E2=80=99s unlikely that I= =E2=80=99ll continue with my donations or attempt to volunteer unless the i= ssues are addressed. In short: * The present CoC has numerous issues that were introduced by recent revisi= on. Those issues are both issues in an of themselves and the cause of dram= a. They need to be addressed. * The issues should be addressed through an open, transparent process. If = this had been done initially, the the issues could have been dealt with ear= ly and more easily. * We should salvage language from the old CoC to address some of the proble= ms of the new one. * The CoC should endeavor, mightily, to accomplish its goals while avoiding= , as much as possible, contemporary political controversy, controversial or= sectarian ideology, and controversial terminology. Failure to do so will = inevitably lead to unnecessary drama and distraction, which has been amply = demonstrated by recent events. Thanks, - Fiorello G. Baumgartner, a pseudonymous FreeBSD user ---- P.S. Here=E2=80=99s a proposal for a revised list of examples (double-aster= isks denote modifications). I think we'd have a very good CoC if we took t= he original FreeBSD one, and grafted on these examples and the reporting pr= ocedures of the new CoC. ** Offensive comments or comments that reinforce negative stereotypes relat= ed to any gender, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disab= ility, mental illness, neuro(a)typicality, physical appearance, body size, = age, race, or religion. ** Unwelcome comments regarding a person's lifestyle choices and practices,= including those related to food, health, parenting, non-disruptive drug us= e, and employment. ** Deliberate and harassing use of rejected or unwanted names, nicknames, o= r pronouns. In some cases these are called =E2=80=9Cdead names.=E2=80=9D * Gratuitous or off-topic sexual images or behavior in spaces where they're= not appropriate. ** Physical contact without consent or after a request to stop. ** Threats of physical violence. ** Incitement of physical violence towards any individual, including encour= aging a person to commit suicide or to engage in self-harm. * Deliberate intimidation. ** Stalking or intrusive following. * Harassing photography or recording, including logging online activity for= harassment purposes. * Sustained disruption of discussion. * Unwelcome sexual attention. * Pattern of inappropriate social contact, such as requesting/assuming inap= propriate levels of intimacy with others. * Continued one-on-one communication after requests to cease. ** Deliberate "outing" of any private aspect of a person's identity without= their consent except as necessary to protect people from intentional abuse= . ** Publication of non-harassing private communication without consent, exce= pt to reveal misconduct. * Publication of non-harassing private communication with consent but in a = way that intentionally misrepresents the communication (e.g., removes conte= xt that changes the meaning). * Knowingly making harmful false claims about a person. ---- P.P.S. On the pseudonym: I'm not going to wade into public, forever-archive= d political debates under my real name. People are weird and I would rathe= r not chance the possibility of being stalked or harassed over this. ---- P.P.P.S Thank you for reading this far. From owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Thu Mar 8 15:35:03 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0088F3C202; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 15:35:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from geheimnisse.atl@gmail.com) Received: from emkei.cz (unknown [IPv6:2a01:5e0:36:5001::20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 947D77FF36; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 15:35:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from geheimnisse.atl@gmail.com) Received: by emkei.cz (Postfix, from userid 33) id CE84CD5ABC; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 16:34:25 +0100 (CET) To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem From: "Geheimnisse" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal Errors-To: geheimnisse.atl@gmail.com Reply-To: geheimnisse.atl@gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Message-Id: <20180308153450.CE84CD5ABC@emkei.cz> Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2018 16:34:18 +0100 (CET) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 15:35:03 -0000 Jesus Christ, can you stop being such a complete faggot. People like you are causing a mockery of FreeBSD, which is now getting called "CuckBSD" by the very people you want to be using this OS. It's fucking embarrassing and has all but signaled to a majority of users that there is a preference for progressive decay over technical progress. Do you realize shit like does nothing but red pill normal, accepting individuals who truly just care about technical merit? You care creating the very enemies you seek. And you will ultimately lose. But please, keep insulting us. Oh, mailed under your pseudonym account because we alt-right types like to stalk and harrass people. On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 8:31 PM, Geheimnisse wrote: >Received: from dunkelheit ([23.226.128.30]) >From: Geheimnisse >Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem >Message-ID: <@dunkelheit> >References: <@lonesome.com> ><@fire.js.berklix.net> >In-Reply-To: <@fire.js.berklix.net> >User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.3 (2018-01-21) >I really cannot wait until all of the people flipping their shit about the new CoC go back to not tending to their neck hair and tipping their fedoras. Oh, excuse me, trilby hats or whatever they may be. >Seriously, the new CoC is the opposite of news. Unless you plan to harrass others online, it will not affect you. Go back to doing whatever it is you were doing before you went on this crusade. Nobody cares aside from a handful of neckbeards, and nobody will care in a couple of weeks because it won't affect anything. >Mailed under an a pseudonym account because these alt-right types like to stalk and harrass people. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Thu Mar 8 15:49:55 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB817F3D955; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 15:49:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sander.vesik@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pg0-x242.google.com (mail-pg0-x242.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D229081664; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 15:49:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sander.vesik@gmail.com) Received: by mail-pg0-x242.google.com with SMTP id e3so2360156pga.6; Thu, 08 Mar 2018 07:49:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=d8Hg4qRYVvLrUZl5CGmTJbT3g8HywdBX73QCweoxOsY=; b=cKhaXJBizMtZ3kLoht74pVP7GId9aogsf/Ao6FURj5VWYA3KPRIyK0ehXogRb58qSI OWKUmDrPo6tkIMZF+ndXqRi1K2d+l3PbMvdRp68aHV34zu79PPxQWP3CzA+JNxLnlbeB Dd9HJchzm9jsMoAE3BVdGAIt22LURJsAq+MmjtM4O3Ntp7kSd1vafl/b8vgQdRgwYp9+ tsym7hbuhcPoly5BsyNqJUxSB7UbpEu3rjWKkMLwlFE9kZsO5U384BZ9HW5uNfkJDrqK PpWQcEJZ2AMl3oYGsh9ycbcXuSlHTJ3wc/0AyjOLfGbmtqs+OhvP+XNu0NIqeyprQX0t v11g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=d8Hg4qRYVvLrUZl5CGmTJbT3g8HywdBX73QCweoxOsY=; b=GGXfOn1dRHE3vDP5riKBfZFeap2r5h5SkzGOlnPdmQ0VgzYfV1GkJTOxmNNzApmb/a GhHAbT+hEioqdyLK2iSA4LDelvYRLSOicGAT+SVgWY+ogjZbbULhIrFXHDLAa6uo/0ht T6C2Ux7dK4CfD6EEs6yc/gdF8WexmmZ+MBxQNy350BXn4Xnoyw9/Go9HUS0k3H/7/e99 +6bIIY8uTFWv9nvLL1hPXSAVkoLkTBQufp0xQrzM5RKLVUUrsvmj621FNqUE1tqgpFg+ qYxSO2vu2KTQlgmuHz/xwkFZhQ+XHpe8wV/07LpXOQ/SmOWHzRjLBnhq+2rtF8ZpTEA5 IvBw== X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPBkONMI4gEtrUVZQJKHw3l5sR7bHjNLzCERkC/EVCcqV++s9Tny tGc4x6NgE831ukXDuGJ6JQVn3eaw9VFLf36P3Xg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELvw6e39Jl4z8kj866uwrt0tujzG25Nu0HmteUKPwUvYF+AcNRQgoRl5l4YubaCdHJynWAAhAsqCqbtjOPIRGaA= X-Received: by 10.99.55.70 with SMTP id g6mr21473383pgn.284.1520524193819; Thu, 08 Mar 2018 07:49:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.236.179.130 with HTTP; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 07:49:53 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20180308153450.CE84CD5ABC@emkei.cz> References: <20180308153450.CE84CD5ABC@emkei.cz> From: Sander Vesik Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2018 17:49:53 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem To: geheimnisse.atl@gmail.com Cc: "freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 15:49:55 -0000 > Jesus Christ, can you stop being such a complete faggot. People like you > are causing a mockery of FreeBSD, which is now getting called "CuckBSD" by > the very people you want to be using this OS Well, no, I am fairly certain you are wrong on this part. From owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Thu Mar 8 16:56:19 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90513F438AD; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 16:56:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fiorello.g.baumgartner@protonmail.com) Received: from mail3.protonmail.ch (mail3.protonmail.ch [185.70.40.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.protonmail.ch", Issuer "QuoVadis Global SSL ICA G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2030585854; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 16:56:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fiorello.g.baumgartner@protonmail.com) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 11:55:51 -0500 To: "geheimnisse.atl@gmail.com" From: "Fiorello G. Baumgartner" Cc: "freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-chat@freebsd.org" Reply-To: "Fiorello G. Baumgartner" Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20180308153450.CE84CD5ABC@emkei.cz> References: <20180308153450.CE84CD5ABC@emkei.cz> Feedback-ID: z_eJKcSaQUfpdvOyIA_UH3a_imiLilCmjWZMYQdpZ1YnEfrD0COFiQrUhGhI24059DHTxfBmjxGUde9ZCOfXVQ==:Ext:ProtonMail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.1 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM,FREEMAIL_REPLYTO autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.1 (2015-04-28) on mail.protonmail.ch X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 16:56:19 -0000 > Jesus Christ, can you stop being such a complete f****t. People like you = are causing a mockery of FreeBSD, which is now getting called "CuckBSD" by = the very people you want to be using this OS. You post is so over the top that I can't even tell if you're really this te= rrible or just a classical troll play-acting someone like that to start a f= lame war. In any case, you are causing nothing but damage. Go away, - Fiorello =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Original Me= ssage =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 On March 8, 2018 9:34 AM, Geheimnisse wrote: > Jesus Christ, can you stop being such a complete faggot. People like you = are causing a mockery of FreeBSD, which is now getting called "CuckBSD" by = the very people you want to be using this OS. It's fucking embarrassing and= has all but signaled to a majority of users that there is a preference for= progressive decay over technical progress. Do you realize shit like does n= othing but red pill normal, accepting individuals who truly just care about= technical merit? You care creating the very enemies you seek. And you will= ultimately lose. But please, keep insulting us. >=20 > Oh, mailed under your pseudonym account because we alt-right types like t= o stalk and harrass people. >=20 > On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 8:31 PM, Geheimnisse geheimnisse.atl@gmail.com wro= te: >=20 > > Received: from dunkelheit (\[23.226.128.30\]) > >=20 > > From: Geheimnisse geheimnisse.atl@gmail.com > >=20 > > Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem > >=20 > > Message-ID: <@dunkelheit> > >=20 > > References: <@lonesome.com> ><@fire.js.berklix.net> > >=20 > > In-Reply-To: <@fire.js.berklix.net> > >=20 > > User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.3 (2018-01-21) >=20 > > I really cannot wait until all of the people flipping their shit about = the new CoC go back to not tending to their neck hair and tipping their fed= oras. Oh, excuse me, trilby hats or whatever they may be. > >=20 > > Seriously, the new CoC is the opposite of news. Unless you plan to harr= ass others online, it will not affect you. Go back to doing whatever it is = you were doing before you went on this crusade. Nobody cares aside from a h= andful of neckbeards, and nobody will care in a couple of weeks because it = won't affect anything. > >=20 > > Mailed under an a pseudonym account because these alt-right types like = to stalk and harrass people. > >=20 > > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > >=20 > > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > >=20 > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >=20 > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list >=20 > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat >=20 > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Thu Mar 8 16:58:05 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F159CF43B4D; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 16:58:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fiorello.g.baumgartner@protonmail.com) Received: from mail3.protonmail.ch (mail3.protonmail.ch [185.70.40.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.protonmail.ch", Issuer "QuoVadis Global SSL ICA G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F0E9859C4; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 16:58:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fiorello.g.baumgartner@protonmail.com) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 11:58:00 -0500 To: Geheimnisse From: "Fiorello G. Baumgartner" Cc: "freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-chat@freebsd.org" Reply-To: "Fiorello G. Baumgartner" Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20180308023113.GA51685@dunkelheit> References: <20180306020515.GA4294@lonesome.com> <201803071144.w27BiLeb086509@fire.js.berklix.net> <20180308023113.GA51685@dunkelheit> Feedback-ID: z_eJKcSaQUfpdvOyIA_UH3a_imiLilCmjWZMYQdpZ1YnEfrD0COFiQrUhGhI24059DHTxfBmjxGUde9ZCOfXVQ==:Ext:ProtonMail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.1 (2015-04-28) on mail.protonmail.ch X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 16:58:05 -0000 > I really cannot wait until all of the people flipping their shit about th= e new CoC go back to not tending to their neck hair and tipping their fedor= as. Oh, excuse me, trilby hats or whatever they may be. >=20 > .... Nobody cares aside from a handful of neckbeards, and nobody will car= e in a couple of weeks because it won't affect anything. Your comments should run afoul of *any* reasonable CoC. They are pure cont= empt of a strawman and have no substance. They have no place here. - Fiorello =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Original Me= ssage =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 On March 7, 2018 8:31 PM, Geheimnisse wrote: > I really cannot wait until all of the people flipping their shit about th= e new CoC go back to not tending to their neck hair and tipping their fedor= as. Oh, excuse me, trilby hats or whatever they may be. >=20 > Seriously, the new CoC is the opposite of news. Unless you plan to harras= s others online, it will not affect you. Go back to doing whatever it is yo= u were doing before you went on this crusade. Nobody cares aside from a han= dful of neckbeards, and nobody will care in a couple of weeks because it wo= n't affect anything. >=20 > Mailed under an a pseudonym account because these alt-right types like to= stalk and harrass people. >=20 > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list >=20 > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat >=20 > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Thu Mar 8 19:31:56 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAA51F27CF9; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 19:31:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from geheimnisse.atl@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qk0-x241.google.com (mail-qk0-x241.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 75B5A6C959; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 19:31:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from geheimnisse.atl@gmail.com) Received: by mail-qk0-x241.google.com with SMTP id f25so1011115qkm.0; Thu, 08 Mar 2018 11:31:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:mime-version:content-disposition :user-agent; bh=MhA0FabUwCnqtMYkx9vEAEYyGHHK16/SBVUU4H1e/Ks=; b=okRjbqKYFkdZs4Tqj8KGRuO3EJGzlHYbufCLGTYz77H2wh33bRZpXKnSWxEvUKGr5k Bra+1DgshVvjMMbvPAnuc0gy3nw0caRgRu4vFUCp3mjXliYZiwe6WdP6F+sDnCQ+YNVq OX0JsP/uL82coLCmJUTVYAQkd6vtPl0qF3H9eEf8UqfZH19PsWW0NGklOt1m53ek07Wk fkuSxJo11tVfkMTNPJtfQqE7ig1XSaPTkM0jWM6xJWIOerYSmjAFA5WQHdDsWGhTgZk6 4McWyEKNQdqgNfrm8y0elBVWq96GNdYMA82cjO2W80blM/07fc0vHYS0w8FbSIp8uJxB Wdiw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:mime-version :content-disposition:user-agent; bh=MhA0FabUwCnqtMYkx9vEAEYyGHHK16/SBVUU4H1e/Ks=; b=fB+gzDcoOFcMpXgeORqr28AC+s6W/fbPC0NyOA5Z/alxJ0GvPz5eU9Hoks49KcydYX dBqUuGq+2N24T/K+k6LVg6FB/xwso0ROzcrC5vQqCd55XV8RiM+nU/0GTZGwPbaiZZxl A8vQA+1pNHPQokrq+cfApCynAFqY0FNzVV2yBS48IhHSXwGAxstUdL4YOIvKccu3MnLZ D6SfyadWu8B9ASCWZ9fhVNUDXeG16WlM680SmYs+kJz9uoXtn8B26yE1uieudVrh80RO Nh2ZS8gMzAUlQ+wf7RWqReD4dTFEkcZ3KuG9bE5gu2GlbgV7+AgcXvPdrem7LmTAEJsE WO7w== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7FztqO419jxKCjS9D28JKN5wRJCgrox8pkFVCTSo9YeYdumeUzY 8JGaXKM/xdx4FPFTSGj2xqE25g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELsv64M8gaEHqSuk0Kp2b9cBbYLky/VHGvYSjNWYUAT21jnDjzB0ZenZ2dXBenHR0Xai7of+HQ== X-Received: by 10.55.151.135 with SMTP id z129mr40699443qkd.339.1520537515914; Thu, 08 Mar 2018 11:31:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from dunkelheit ([23.226.128.30]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m30sm15194975qkh.91.2018.03.08.11.31.48 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 08 Mar 2018 11:31:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2018 14:31:28 -0500 From: Geheimnisse To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Cc: geheimnisse.atl@gmail.com Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem Message-ID: <20180308193128.GA27875@dunkelheit> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.3 (2018-01-21) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 19:31:57 -0000 Nope, Not a troll. Just protecting myself from alt-right creeps. Let's see, where to begin? Unironically using the term "cuck" as in "CuckBSD". Check. Unironically using the term "red pill". Check. Both of which are exclusively part of the alt-right lexicon. So, FreeBSD may have a politics problem - an alt-right politics problem. Manchildren who cry any time something happens that isn't right-wing. They don't want "politics out of FreeBSD" regarding the CoC, they want a CoC that aligns with their alt-right values. In conclusion, the alt-right can shut the hell up and move on to their next target. Leave FreeBSD alone, you neckbeard creeps. From owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Thu Mar 8 20:29:25 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E3FDF2D7E8 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 20:29:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erratic@yourstruly.sx) Received: from edge.seattle1.wa.us.yourstruly.sx (edge.seattle1.wa.us.yourstruly.sx [IPv6:2607:f2f8:a2c4:1001::4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "edge", Issuer "edge" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F5316EF91 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 20:29:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erratic@yourstruly.sx) Received: from exc.seattle1.wa.us.yourstruly.sx (10.242.242.1) by edge.seattle1.wa.us.yourstruly.sx (10.242.242.2) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.1.669.32; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 12:29:22 -0800 Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; 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Thu, 8 Mar 2018 12:28:40 -0800 From: Paige Thompson To: Lazlo Falconi , Jeff Roberson CC: Franco Fichtner , Vladimir Botka , "freebsd-chat@freebsd.org" , "timmcgrawfan@protonmail.com" Subject: RE: FreeBSD has a politics problem Thread-Topic: FreeBSD has a politics problem Thread-Index: AQHTtFvxMkbFcZI9nEeC4Rg9gAAD66PC1q2AgAFNCoCAAqt4kA== Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2018 20:28:40 +0000 Message-ID: <4432f67e43fa4fcabfb264aabb522d9f@yourstruly.sx> References: <534485E2-7E07-4438-AD04-B4D9D1F90978@lastsummer.de> <20180305092707.0f55ce55@planb.netng.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.242.0.107] MIME-Version: 1.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 20:29:25 -0000 SGV5LA0KDQpJIGp1c3QgZ290dGEgc2F5IEknbSBnZXR0aW5nIGEga2ljayBvdXQgb2Ygd2F0Y2hp bmcgeW91IGFsbCBoYXZlIHRoaXMgY29udmVyc2F0aW9uLiBUaGlzIGlzIHJlYWxseSBoYXBwZW5p bmcuIExPTA0KDQpLZWVwIHVwIHRoZSBnb29kIHdvcmsgDQoNCi1QYWlnZQ0KDQoNCi0tLS0tT3Jp Z2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQpGcm9tOiBvd25lci1mcmVlYnNkLWNoYXRAZnJlZWJzZC5vcmcg PG93bmVyLWZyZWVic2QtY2hhdEBmcmVlYnNkLm9yZz4gT24gQmVoYWxmIE9mIExhemxvIEZhbGNv bmkNClNlbnQ6IFR1ZXNkYXksIE1hcmNoIDYsIDIwMTggMTE6NDIgQU0NClRvOiBKZWZmIFJvYmVy c29uIDxqcm9iZXJzb25AanJvYmVyc29uLm5ldD4NCkNjOiBGcmFuY28gRmljaHRuZXIgPGZyYW5j b0BsYXN0c3VtbWVyLmRlPjsgVmxhZGltaXIgQm90a2EgPHZib3RrYUBnbWFpbC5jb20+OyBmcmVl YnNkLWNoYXRAZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc7IHRpbW1jZ3Jhd2ZhbkBwcm90b25tYWlsLmNvbQ0KU3ViamVj dDogUmU6IEZyZWVCU0QgaGFzIGEgcG9saXRpY3MgcHJvYmxlbQ0KDQo+SXQgY2FuIGJlIGNoYWxs ZW5naW5nIHRvIGRldGVybWluZSB3aG8gaXMgYSBsZWdpdGltYXRlIHBhcnQgb2YgdGhlDQpjb21t dW5pdHkgYW5kIHdobyBpcyBhbiBvdXRzaWRlIGludGVybG9wZXIgY2FwaXRhbGl6aW5nIG9uIGEg cG9saXRpY2FsIG1vbWVudCBJIHRoaW5rIHRoaXMgaXMgdGhlIGhlYXJ0IG9mIHRoZSBpc3N1ZS4g SXQncyBpbnRlcmVzdGluZyBob3cgdGhlcmUgd2FzIGFsbCB0aGlzIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gYWJvdXQg dGhlIENvQyBoZWFkaW5nIGluIHRoaXMgZGlyZWN0aW9uIGFsbCBvdmVyIHRoZSBtYWlsaW5nIGxp c3RzLCBvbiB0d2l0dGVyLCBldGMsIGFuZCBvbmx5IG5vdyB0aGF0IGl0J3MgYmVlbiBpbXBvc2Vk LCBhcmUgYWxsIHRoZXNlIG9wcG9uZW50cyBjb21pbmcgb3V0IG9mIHRoZSB3b29kd29yayBzYXlp bmcgdGhleSB3ZXJlIG5ldmVyIGFza2VkLg0KDQpXZSBnZXQgYWxsIHRoZXNlIGNvbW1lbnRzIGFi b3V0IGhvdyB0aGUgbmV3IENvQyBlbmNvdXJhZ2VzIGZlbWluaXNtDQoocHJvdGlwOiBhbnlvbmUg d2hvIGluc3RhbnRseSBicmlzdGxlcyBhdCB0aGUgdGVybSBwcm9iYWJseSBsYWNrIGFuIHVuZGVy c3RhbmRpbmcgb2YgaXQpIGFuZCBlbmZvcmNlcyBhIGJ1bmNoIG9mLCBpbiB0aGVpciBvcGluaW9u cywgbm9uLWlzc3Vlcy4gQnV0IHRoZXkgd2VyZSBpc3N1ZXMuIFRoYXQncyB3aHkgdGhlIENvQyBo YWQgdG8gY2hhbmdlLg0KDQpBcyBmYXIgYXMgSSBjYW4gdGVsbCwgdGhlIG5ldyBDb0Mgb25seSBk aXNjb3VyYWdlcyB0aGUga2luZHMgb2Ygc3BlZWNoIHRoYXQgbmV2ZXIgaGFkIGFueSBidXNpbmVz cyBiZWluZyBpbiBhbnkgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBvZiBGcmVlQlNELCBvciBhbnkgdGVjaG5pY2FsIHBy b2plY3QsIGluIHRoZSBmaXJzdCBwbGFjZS4gSXQncyBraW5kIG9mIGEgc2hhbWUgd2UgZ290IGNh dWdodCB1cCB0aGlzIHdob2xlIGRpc2N1c3Npb24sIGJ1dCBJIGd1ZXNzIGl0IGdvZXMgdG8gc2hv dyB0aGF0IGl0IHdhcyBuZXZlciBhYm91dCBldGhpY3MgaW4gZ2FtZXMgam91cm5hbGlzbS4NCl9f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQpmcmVlYnNkLWNo YXRAZnJlZWJzZC5vcmcgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQpodHRwczovL2xpc3RzLmZyZWVic2Qub3JnL21h aWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vZnJlZWJzZC1jaGF0DQpUbyB1bnN1YnNjcmliZSwgc2VuZCBhbnkgbWFp bCB0byAiZnJlZWJzZC1jaGF0LXVuc3Vic2NyaWJlQGZyZWVic2Qub3JnIg0K From owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Thu Mar 8 20:57:45 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75059F2FA9C; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 20:57:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fiorello.g.baumgartner@protonmail.com) Received: from mail3.protonmail.ch (mail3.protonmail.ch [185.70.40.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.protonmail.ch", Issuer "QuoVadis Global SSL ICA G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F780700E8; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 20:57:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fiorello.g.baumgartner@protonmail.com) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 15:57:32 -0500 To: Geheimnisse From: "Fiorello G. Baumgartner" Cc: "freebsd-chat@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org" Reply-To: "Fiorello G. Baumgartner" Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20180308193128.GA27875@dunkelheit> References: <20180308193128.GA27875@dunkelheit> Feedback-ID: z_eJKcSaQUfpdvOyIA_UH3a_imiLilCmjWZMYQdpZ1YnEfrD0COFiQrUhGhI24059DHTxfBmjxGUde9ZCOfXVQ==:Ext:ProtonMail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.1 (2015-04-28) on mail.protonmail.ch X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 20:57:45 -0000 Geheimnisse, you are *both* using words from the asshole lexicon and conduc= ting yourselves poorly. I don't think anyone wants to hear you go on about= your "alt-right" boogyman any more than we want to hear others go on about= their "SJW" boogyman. This whole thing is difficult enough as it is, don'= t make it worse. Please stop. Thanks, Fiorello =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Original Me= ssage =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 On March 8, 2018 1:31 PM, Geheimnisse wrote: > Nope, Not a troll. Just protecting myself from alt-right creeps. >=20 > Let's see, where to begin? Unironically using the term "cuck" as in "Cuck= BSD". Check. Unironically using the term "red pill". Check. >=20 > Both of which are exclusively part of the alt-right lexicon. >=20 > So, FreeBSD may have a politics problem - an alt-right politics problem. = Manchildren who cry any time something happens that isn't right-wing. They = don't want "politics out of FreeBSD" regarding the CoC, they want a CoC tha= t aligns with their alt-right values. >=20 > In conclusion, the alt-right can shut the hell up and move on to their ne= xt target. Leave FreeBSD alone, you neckbeard creeps. >=20 > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list >=20 > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat >=20 > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Fri Mar 9 01:10:34 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BE12F4353D for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2018 01:10:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tal@whatexit.org) Received: from mail-qt0-x230.google.com (mail-qt0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 023F67AD05 for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2018 01:10:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tal@whatexit.org) Received: by mail-qt0-x230.google.com with SMTP id n9so9004818qtk.6 for ; Thu, 08 Mar 2018 17:10:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=whatexit.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ZWS7G2sHMoCSaDG8g+2VOJ3H+jYT0kgv2OmErlfqeFk=; b=gsOvsl/Z7meWAwaBEjyRxx5TlP47FI4moWzxIg4Pst3nk7sHWk0HFSsZb5O+U3Nqjf +aPi3GXNQjjIrXzKMw4FzqVizauXjp6htyzH7sC2mzDCoo7gm1fcKJN9nzlMoLd2WjkE ZWduy+TpdgmJ5Bx2T5DNfQ04s6wqvhbO40dH4= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ZWS7G2sHMoCSaDG8g+2VOJ3H+jYT0kgv2OmErlfqeFk=; b=MTT2McKqyqdl8YOdGBMupZtHWBKUqGMMpXkuruqlGQLVycQrVdRNVqk/cGhElyUHV4 uqHBL6MeknXCVh54oWV2vqVULu554ajr9BfyF701Bz4zlFcyrB0tv6CVOOvePRvHd5+W oCwHqbz1Q/2oVWxGje8Gl7291XS3+xi6EOE9zP8M0O7wowamtNm0Y8oyIxwGEq6Zt9p0 FlSxLQHV/fFJk1UyOPvmh9+ppPxlXLISj1tn/nE4rgl17quZSztpmX9cM1/3nUA6xWlE CNnHlMJHXyoPHEhW43Pi/+dh5ZaOlLKKVlXPzxaYlouoCpK5lmq/Xiz1sIe9I1DjGC22 iDSA== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7HbOkDmI9OhNV7Y7+6rbsyJzh6gubmXq3DDIqOoLXiLY1k2tiv+ odo+yjePSGKy1xIZw85uVgd2QWzahA7QW9Ts1XQKYQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELv06Zrv+Fvf/czO04YaM0a9W5oB7O0XnKtrnt/h3Hys11NdHI/ZOe4o58Lq8+Xqh+E+/vMwdR7cU0BWh/gGnIQ= X-Received: by 10.237.51.132 with SMTP id v4mr43438705qtd.72.1520557833278; Thu, 08 Mar 2018 17:10:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20180306020515.GA4294@lonesome.com> <201803071144.w27BiLeb086509@fire.js.berklix.net> <20180308023113.GA51685@dunkelheit> In-Reply-To: <20180308023113.GA51685@dunkelheit> From: Tom Limoncelli Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2018 01:10:21 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem To: Geheimnisse Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2018 01:10:34 -0000 Sing it, Geheimnisse! Tom On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 9:31 PM Geheimnisse wrote: > I really cannot wait until all of the people flipping their shit about the > new CoC go back to not tending to their neck hair and tipping their > fedoras. Oh, excuse me, trilby hats or whatever they may be. > > Seriously, the new CoC is the opposite of news. Unless you plan to harrass > others online, it will not affect you. Go back to doing whatever it is you > were doing before you went on this crusade. Nobody cares aside from a > handful of neckbeards, and nobody will care in a couple of weeks because it > won't affect anything. > > Mailed under an a pseudonym account because these alt-right types like to > stalk and harrass people. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- Sent from Gmail Mobile. Autocorrect is my co-author. From owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Fri Mar 9 06:09:40 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AFB4F304C3 for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2018 06:09:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic311-32.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic311-32.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.176.164]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A134985D45 for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2018 06:09:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: DIiINmEVM1lL0LqRgClfnsBDgxcxoy8FqNuNudDjRaXfCXVfca8UpNu8EOTSxF1 Dm8lTBuyegRDomEmPJd_y53kHbQpmhoW3JpilMBPmfdrdsYnLtA1V6LfhWM4W8gBi.h4H3Py3JWY i5T2CiOe2lxBPGNWruYvi0ChZHFj89xzkvZu0FE3DygBQM_m9u4zMiGLEvxmcZWaBjDVQ2J7QrDU ybWxL1HFjDj1R1JdtmUX8v1yCc5QDQBiN2lPaA5gCuAXn.ZCqt8J3d1Ffqq_PUZ_4DDVb5d1syQG wgnUhHIUwaL41bZATA4jTGqvldKVsWpNPZCft0p4JUMm2eRr0ER9dkfc2KqpuZ1a9DWv9iLC1E8q _f.Z_MyY7DVe3pUZ4pqFE_DII.fbWSk4gBe9dA_udX7hjj9JWNKYSIeqhYSDGwUalmmqvVCRuzyh k27x.zJT0Hu6gMEJrK3CVhYpoiJWHUxzcI7MvI4FNOLuhz051sYg9XqopOwcYKztkzigRHFjYBrH kAIOor3BRGdllSwLsMxw_P3iV9HZDnOMXoSYh7DYUhM58JaN3rw_VY.g.LJc- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic311.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 9 Mar 2018 06:09:32 +0000 Received: from smtp166.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (EHLO archlinux.localdomain) ([46.228.39.33]) by smtp403.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (JAMES SMTP Server ) with ESMTPA ID a4a9be8dd1fbbdd8a8906850ac3734fe for ; Fri, 09 Mar 2018 06:09:30 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 07:09:31 +0100 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem Message-ID: <20180309070931.36c0ce6e@archlinux.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <20180308193128.GA27875@dunkelheit> References: <20180308193128.GA27875@dunkelheit> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.16.0git24 (GTK+ 2.24.32; x86_64-arch-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2018 06:09:40 -0000 On Thu, 8 Mar 2018 14:31:28 -0500, Geheimnisse wrote: >So, FreeBSD may have a politics problem - an alt-right politics >problem. Manchildren who cry any time something happens that isn't >right-wing. They don't want "politics out of FreeBSD" regarding the >CoC, they want a CoC that aligns with their alt-right values. > >In conclusion, the alt-right can shut the hell up and move on to their >next target. Leave FreeBSD alone, you neckbeard creeps. Those world conspiracy fantasis are touching https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law , something that much, much, much, much, much more often happens on computer related mailing lists than racism, misogyny, xenophobia etc. apears, but Godwin's law usually is uesed regarding technically decisions, a developer e.g. is in favour of a hamburger button over a menubar or vice versa and a user compares this with the Holocaust. -- Lived solidarity: https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/spg/show_picture.pl?l=english&rais=1&oiu=https%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2F-4MJm6MM8W8%2Fmaxresdefault.jpg&sp=8d7a534b496ef1f5d77206bdc4f1071e