From owner-freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Tue Oct 23 21:34:23 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fcp@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB36CFFD841; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 21:34:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from land.berklix.org (land.berklix.org [144.76.10.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "land.berklix.org", Issuer "land.berklix.org" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68400714AD; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 21:34:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from mart.js.berklix.net (p2E52CCDC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [46.82.204.220]) (authenticated bits=0) by land.berklix.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w9NLYBMr035171 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 23 Oct 2018 21:34:19 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by mart.js.berklix.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id w9NLY5Fb036818; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 23:34:05 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id w9NLXZXh080416; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 23:33:47 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Message-Id: <201810232133.w9NLXZXh080416@fire.js.berklix.net> To: Warner Losh cc: Ian Lepore , FreeBSD Net , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , michelle@sorbs.net, "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers From: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: http://berklix.eu BSD Unix Linux Consultants, Munich Germany User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://berklix.eu/free/ X-From: http://www.berklix.eu/~jhs/ In-reply-to: Your message "Thu, 04 Oct 2018 11:38:46 -0600." Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 23:33:35 +0200 X-BeenThere: freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Community Proposals List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 21:34:23 -0000 > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc, > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today. vr is used by my TV driver laptop: http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/ vr0: flags=8843 metric 0 mtu 1500 options=82808 ether 00:40:d0:5e:26:38 inet 192.168.91.65 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 192.168.91.255 media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX ) status: active Which currently runs 8.4-RELEASE & eg xrandr, but I'll upgrade soon when I also configure it to receive from a raspberry-pi TV VPN server. Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich. Brexit referendum stole 3,700,000 Brits votes abroad, inc. 700,000 in EU. Campaign lies, criminal funding, economy & pound down. Time for an honest ref. http://exitbrexit.uk https://www.peoples-vote.uk/petition https://eci.ec.europa.eu/002/public/#/initiative From owner-freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Tue Oct 23 21:55:58 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fcp@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D103FFE6E6; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 21:55:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from land.berklix.org (land.berklix.org [144.76.10.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "land.berklix.org", Issuer "land.berklix.org" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD755727CC; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 21:55:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from mart.js.berklix.net (p2E52CCDC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [46.82.204.220]) (authenticated bits=0) by land.berklix.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w9NLtpBd035703 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 23 Oct 2018 21:55:56 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by mart.js.berklix.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id w9NLtkOJ036954; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 23:55:46 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id w9NLtM4Y080783; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 23:55:40 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Message-Id: <201810232155.w9NLtM4Y080783@fire.js.berklix.net> To: Doug Hardie cc: Brooks Davis , freebsd-net@freebsd.org, freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers From: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: http://berklix.eu BSD Unix Linux Consultants, Munich Germany User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://berklix.eu/free/ X-From: http://www.berklix.eu/~jhs/ In-reply-to: Your message "Thu, 04 Oct 2018 12:54:28 -0700." <15FCEA6B-C017-40C5-8193-8C7AA3F563CC@mail.sermon-archive.info> Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 23:55:22 +0200 X-BeenThere: freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Community Proposals List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 21:55:58 -0000 Doug Hardie wrote: > I have a number of production servers that only have bge and I don't see that listed in either category. None of them are running FreeBSD 12 yet as it has not been released. Also there are some with rl. Those are add-on boards so they could be changed, but would require extensive effort as the machines are about a 4 hour drive from here and would require reconfiguration (an error prone process when you are tired). bge is also used by my main laptop with current Oct 15 18:33 /boot/kernel/kernel bge0: flags=8843 metric 0 mtu 1500 options=c019b media: Ethernet autoselect (1000baseT ) Doug, I think bge must be safe as man 4 bge: "bge - Broadcom BCM57xx/BCM590x Gigabit/Fast Ethernet driver" & Brooks proposal was ... "a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers" Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich. Brexit referendum stole 3,700,000 Brits votes abroad, inc. 700,000 in EU. Campaign lies, criminal funding, economy & pound down. Time for an honest ref. http://exitbrexit.uk https://www.peoples-vote.uk/petition https://eci.ec.europa.eu/002/public/#/initiative From owner-freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Tue Oct 23 22:10:39 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fcp@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7591EFFED72; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 22:10:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brooks@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net) Received: from spindle.one-eyed-alien.net (spindle.one-eyed-alien.net [199.48.129.229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1E4E57301B; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 22:10:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brooks@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net) Received: by spindle.one-eyed-alien.net (Postfix, from userid 3001) id 7D74E3C475F; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 22:10:37 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 22:10:37 +0000 From: Brooks Davis To: "Julian H. Stacey" Cc: Warner Losh , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , Ian Lepore , FreeBSD Net , michelle@sorbs.net, "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Message-ID: <20181023221037.GA14128@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> References: <201810232133.w9NLXZXh080416@fire.js.berklix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="lrZ03NoBR/3+SXJZ" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201810232133.w9NLXZXh080416@fire.js.berklix.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) X-BeenThere: freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Community Proposals List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 22:10:39 -0000 --lrZ03NoBR/3+SXJZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 11:33:35PM +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, sm= c, > > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, a= nd > > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today. >=20 > vr is used by my TV driver laptop: > http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/ > vr0: flags=3D8843 metric 0 mtu 15= 00 > options=3D82808 > ether 00:40:d0:5e:26:38 > inet 192.168.91.65 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 192.168.91.255 > media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX ) > status: active >=20 > Which currently runs 8.4-RELEASE & eg xrandr, but I'll upgrade soon > when I also configure it to receive from a raspberry-pi TV VPN server. The above was a typo. vr is on the the STAY list. -- Brooks --lrZ03NoBR/3+SXJZ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJbz5xcAAoJEKzQXbSebgfAZmgH/R214Fn1RLCeGjvi0YbYJqNV 0hO3MPfXkcH+9Jw70egbvCpbuKxnoMkzNBfiXjh7cDUHMapMpni2Av3e0X0vEm1Z 3M7TMa7nC+7oIHNNbu4zD1a9cwgQO1EnWBWPy/FiWAxpYHT32lzvpdT7PdaTcJCL Wjig4jk6qK4qQgo02z+PF1wOT2VVdXqBuZFx3HrzVsOd/QAVhYk5AhtLe/7yn3LZ mZA5e/6qqsLk1h+xMsT+I9gLA1idYXBgUzoMTLzU3OsjJhxLYWq9YGIStQPr/Tve 1avsoo+VAyNwXWhS5zYk1iW1rKeLq6M7T6m5ERvDVS0Uo0JInzAFEI3H+9mKk7Q= =Cq3G -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --lrZ03NoBR/3+SXJZ-- From owner-freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Tue Oct 23 22:14:26 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fcp@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5050FFF215; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 22:14:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from land.berklix.org (land.berklix.org [144.76.10.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "land.berklix.org", Issuer "land.berklix.org" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 607C8735C5; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 22:14:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from mart.js.berklix.net (p2E52CCDC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [46.82.204.220]) (authenticated bits=0) by land.berklix.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w9NMEIFA036300 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 23 Oct 2018 22:14:22 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by mart.js.berklix.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id w9NMEDc2037173; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 00:14:13 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id w9NMDhCW081823; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 00:13:55 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Message-Id: <201810232213.w9NMDhCW081823@fire.js.berklix.net> To: Brooks Davis cc: Warner Losh , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , Ian Lepore , FreeBSD Net , michelle@sorbs.net, "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers From: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: http://berklix.eu BSD Unix Linux Consultants, Munich Germany User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://berklix.eu/free/ X-From: http://www.berklix.eu/~jhs/ In-reply-to: Your message "Tue, 23 Oct 2018 22:10:37 -0000." <20181023221037.GA14128@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 00:13:43 +0200 X-BeenThere: freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Community Proposals List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 22:14:27 -0000 Hi, Reference: > From: Brooks Davis > Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 22:10:37 +0000 Brooks Davis wrote: > > --lrZ03NoBR/3+SXJZ > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Disposition: inline > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 11:33:35PM +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, sm= > c, > > > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, a= > nd > > > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today. > >=20 > > vr is used by my TV driver laptop: > > http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/ > > vr0: flags=3D8843 metric 0 mtu 15= > 00 > > options=3D82808 > > ether 00:40:d0:5e:26:38 > > inet 192.168.91.65 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 192.168.91.255 > > media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX pause,txpause>) > > status: active > >=20 > > Which currently runs 8.4-RELEASE & eg xrandr, but I'll upgrade soon > > when I also configure it to receive from a raspberry-pi TV VPN server. > > The above was a typo. vr is on the the STAY list. Great, Thanks. Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich. Brexit referendum stole 3,700,000 Brits votes abroad, inc. 700,000 in EU. Campaign lies, criminal funding, economy & pound down. Time for an honest ref. http://exitbrexit.uk https://www.peoples-vote.uk/petition https://eci.ec.europa.eu/002/public/#/initiative From owner-freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Tue Oct 23 23:06:52 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fcp@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACB051008A08; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 23:06:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B236752B9; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 23:06:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id w9NN6nsO024522; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 16:06:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id w9NN6mG8024521; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 16:06:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <201810232306.w9NN6mG8024521@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers In-Reply-To: <20181023221037.GA14128@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> To: Brooks Davis Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 16:06:48 -0700 (PDT) CC: "Julian H. Stacey" , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , Ian Lepore , FreeBSD Net , michelle@sorbs.net, "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Community Proposals List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 23:06:52 -0000 > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 11:33:35PM +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc, > > > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and > > > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today. > > > > vr is used by my TV driver laptop: > > http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/ > > vr0: flags=8843 metric 0 mtu 1500 > > options=82808 > > ether 00:40:d0:5e:26:38 > > inet 192.168.91.65 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 192.168.91.255 > > media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX ) > > status: active > > > > Which currently runs 8.4-RELEASE & eg xrandr, but I'll upgrade soon > > when I also configure it to receive from a raspberry-pi TV VPN server. > > The above was a typo. vr is on the the STAY list. > > -- Brooks Brooks, Is there a public revised version of FCP-0101 that reflects the feedback which is what core is voting on? -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Tue Oct 23 23:10:00 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fcp@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 138551008C76 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 23:10:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-vs1-xe2d.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8760B754C1 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 23:09:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-vs1-xe2d.google.com with SMTP id a202so1989676vsd.5 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 16:09:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ZpJHsI4M/7F1nqGYsIixOnRMHRX8ACltgTe71EUAE2o=; b=gKylTv6E0BrhVUtHLWKvpgUj9eQ9jocS3DPRFfCEjCogeiuCQ/FP6B20b8vQ01bhXh jO11jWdP5J2uVOxBiwY3dyMwaYvmGUmEqKVW42oxrQgOw6ymeTMsxOmwyQOVOxXEcq+N EWY0fSAXbAPiPEyZdvnzYhvZgq4FxP0D1MrQ/Upg2YmDAnWNbKbZGVs+IyPDX7NUfwJG 0Cadmw/GMho2xDW/t7JrVfSk0oYICwrPy46nkyObTguWJd8nKKXDBgKWa+YnEIpylTY9 WgMR8s8qk210KXbN/Re/5AYypMC5DW5zH3R+cUgrNxJvxlGeMif9GqfM0KKcbRzV9XvB vRrQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ZpJHsI4M/7F1nqGYsIixOnRMHRX8ACltgTe71EUAE2o=; b=p4NeeAxztWE3dAMOHd0bUyfuM6pvWvR2dcBPMoN6VkGVVuV6sQousRtB14N+DNjenG fsXLVXohkN8Fgv610zx1JP2Ug0vpiGuFcCPhrwIaPo5EeVWf+d/bZMiw0VWAv1GdSnfT 7IxmdYpff1EueqwpNvDqwvM+zln++Bemfwa7gmt4GWxbPmm+it2vzaT0vwKXpCW+QWZf fpxE+HvaP+CONqmlEY4ppN0ZR3urLz5HOTVS3LG7RRGphPNy+WiUgXRezHivo8zXBYoA /v0t0Krs3ORb0UCyfLzfOhhbZmNZkENllNKLc/ei0no8WpQWibRvKFbwpehUNZuyPem6 8zzQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gJUhv8gw6mCKSF6pGJ0FgUnSGUyonyImk9HuSMK3OouC2rxuLoL dAlwqI86A79CK+lG83M3vwIQ+o250u1QpomfVciFvA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5dOo8geCkuGvJNx7df3RNHP5t85xsnNR3e97/+2ic+JcQC+0GStw45an2hLhtgy04qrXeQMpSMx/U9pBpfdvpE= X-Received: by 2002:a67:4dc7:: with SMTP id i68mr128662vsg.46.1540336198661; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 16:09:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181023221037.GA14128@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <201810232306.w9NN6mG8024521@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> In-Reply-To: <201810232306.w9NN6mG8024521@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> From: Warner Losh Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 17:09:47 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Brooks Davis , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , Ian Lepore , FreeBSD Net , "Julian H. Stacey" , Michelle Sullivan , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Community Proposals List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 23:10:00 -0000 On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 5:07 PM Rodney W. Grimes < freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 11:33:35PM +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, > smc, > > > > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this > thread, and > > > > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today. > > > > > > vr is used by my TV driver laptop: > > > http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/ > > > vr0: flags=8843 metric 0 mtu > 1500 > > > options=82808 > > > ether 00:40:d0:5e:26:38 > > > inet 192.168.91.65 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 192.168.91.255 > > > media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX > ) > > > status: active > > > > > > Which currently runs 8.4-RELEASE & eg xrandr, but I'll upgrade soon > > > when I also configure it to receive from a raspberry-pi TV VPN server. > > > > The above was a typo. vr is on the the STAY list. > > > > -- Brooks > Brooks, > Is there a public revised version of FCP-0101 that reflects the > feedback which is what core is voting on? > Its on github, just like it's been the whole time for anybody to see, submit pull requests against and track: https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md Warner From owner-freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Tue Oct 23 23:11:07 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fcp@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DFC11008E02 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 23:11:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-vk1-xa29.google.com (mail-vk1-xa29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 98524756FF for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 23:11:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-vk1-xa29.google.com with SMTP id b65-v6so794750vkf.1 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 16:11:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=XTYvAUUeKAKgCsvrWbJ7+kLqOs8Fq1XBw7kIcWF3jEk=; b=BQBCq7TJWKtiiRHPc4i0DuHLCphru70IXgcEW+KqXtC+A7g3WfW6+jcgzE92dn3ki/ vohNgXgpgCKzNdZTw85DSw0FiTqKp+mo8oWeCnkZmsgY2Mt8mRV3loK+leuame2LB7H3 rX+j1UZpyO+7/8CBzPiCBWifbdp0UEL8+DbPnEfSTORBCBj4ihToMrp+kSaQ2dacKhFe fvhYwEnTEN9ApIGy0lTb3OgfQs81TWo6pJyS0GN3S7JLDuC1FKpAs6kAYVpqOtYHzwVb iMZdNl3x+0ub5vzfqlLxK+5t0yb/wUK+DwdSZEW8tz7lEy16QaYwA9jhQ0CJH0mA737D AoXw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=XTYvAUUeKAKgCsvrWbJ7+kLqOs8Fq1XBw7kIcWF3jEk=; b=pacKsyi2ILwb0paTDJHiixnHqoXmBXiPNqZ5TX8NIH0LnyxCo8tQR1CAcT8w8j2qVG fFsMlYmKGOxInrk0c4iy32Quem+/od/L7c4m/subUbS2+eJHLnIik/86EEYu9t0DwHvi VlNKRaUMztuMZCM31YIL69O4xHyeZJSO1DjpH9KEgYuEu2syihr0TJseXSG5RiPePQfz O+KwUkgFxzCDd/fxmM9HjOlIiSIkqTvVXzE0isKZuOTn8ATe5JaOdgZAG3oUDc0Zh7My sCcbTyCzu2u+IgOBlgiSvsuEwLeKUJKboBN2dNY8Kg7KlMjOLwRlehsLDBiY5JDAZmp9 JKeA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gJUMQyfows+XSw3RoaIwRlrr9WZvbd8YeGaXuDqPlKG4KLm/Uat vK/2mKhClugkoUhyPvoeyLYLsvAaVOPJ6dexiQ5eVg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5fmkXu0yxS0QqOmkMLS/zBfhZ99AzjvjMCSYZy0FY32znG5ZHH3Aawnis+F22Q/dfkkXT0RYuxRr1WuTlorljg= X-Received: by 2002:a1f:d803:: with SMTP id p3mr122934vkg.9.1540336265884; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 16:11:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <15FCEA6B-C017-40C5-8193-8C7AA3F563CC@mail.sermon-archive.info> <201810232155.w9NLtM4Y080783@fire.js.berklix.net> In-Reply-To: <201810232155.w9NLtM4Y080783@fire.js.berklix.net> From: Warner Losh Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 17:10:54 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: "Julian H. Stacey" Cc: bc979@lafn.org, freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Net , Brooks Davis , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Community Proposals List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 23:11:07 -0000 On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 3:57 PM Julian H. Stacey wrote: > Doug Hardie wrote: > > I have a number of production servers that only have bge and I don't see > that listed in either category. None of them are running FreeBSD 12 yet as > it has not been released. Also there are some with rl. Those are add-on > boards so they could be changed, but would require extensive effort as the > machines are about a 4 hour drive from here and would require > reconfiguration (an error prone process when you are tired). > > bge is also used by my main laptop with current Oct 15 18:33 > /boot/kernel/kernel > > bge0: flags=8843 metric 0 mtu 1500 > > options=c019b > media: Ethernet autoselect (1000baseT ) > > Doug, I think bge must be safe as man 4 bge: > "bge - Broadcom BCM57xx/BCM590x Gigabit/Fast Ethernet driver" > & Brooks proposal was ... "a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet > drivers" > Indeed. https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md shows bge is not on the list to go. Warner From owner-freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Tue Oct 23 23:11:33 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fcp@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCA3C1008EDF; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 23:11:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brooks@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net) Received: from spindle.one-eyed-alien.net (spindle.one-eyed-alien.net [199.48.129.229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 27553757D0; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 23:11:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brooks@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net) Received: by spindle.one-eyed-alien.net (Postfix, from userid 3001) id 2F5453C475F; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 23:11:32 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 23:11:32 +0000 From: Brooks Davis To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Brooks Davis , "Julian H. Stacey" , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , Ian Lepore , FreeBSD Net , michelle@sorbs.net, "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Message-ID: <20181023231132.GA14827@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> References: <20181023221037.GA14128@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <201810232306.w9NN6mG8024521@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="DocE+STaALJfprDB" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201810232306.w9NN6mG8024521@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) X-BeenThere: freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Community Proposals List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 23:11:34 -0000 --DocE+STaALJfprDB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 04:06:48PM -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 11:33:35PM +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn= , smc, > > > > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this threa= d, and > > > > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today. > > >=20 > > > vr is used by my TV driver laptop: > > > http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/ > > > vr0: flags=3D8843 metric 0 mt= u 1500 > > > options=3D82808 > > > ether 00:40:d0:5e:26:38 > > > inet 192.168.91.65 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 192.168.91.255 > > > media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX ) > > > status: active > > >=20 > > > Which currently runs 8.4-RELEASE & eg xrandr, but I'll upgrade soon > > > when I also configure it to receive from a raspberry-pi TV VPN server. > >=20 > > The above was a typo. vr is on the the STAY list. > >=20 > > -- Brooks > Brooks, > Is there a public revised version of FCP-0101 that reflects the > feedback which is what core is voting on? https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md has been updated throughout the feedback process as drivers were moved to the STAY list, errors were found, etc. It also contains a summary of responses and the hard data we have. -- Brooks --DocE+STaALJfprDB Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJbz6qjAAoJEKzQXbSebgfAUUEIAJTSlTLrA81440KDSciYlMbI mBLQbmu+un/RxKmYBklC8XCnHQRSTrtgIbONEL+HxjVUMAj3x9VWfIOy5NGF2nlA uEJa4NES0Yv1vgNobhNQm3ht5Z7Z1raKBVwGyqpL775x2ZX3ZQtn44MBCk/f7N6r iTtoyjKRGxKzOrZffNf1jsF+hdO1W4Y709Fw44/XxianK5vP6qaE9wP1PaaVhW6s XxrRI2TSHrJOC1raFKO6jDvRaBssGWSVhLIa+ErSiMIL3D8OwcgRY7gxNRhDGVb9 7NvIEcKHMQHqF9B1fqoPangqdRZBfF2PnHgK/uUy1FXsDXIyLj2J6jXCzp71P2s= =XG9T -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --DocE+STaALJfprDB-- From owner-freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Tue Oct 23 23:26:50 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fcp@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 422691036A8E; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 23:26:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 80B927678E; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 23:26:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id w9NNQjFQ024760; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 16:26:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id w9NNQjtK024759; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 16:26:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <201810232326.w9NNQjtK024759@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers In-Reply-To: To: Warner Losh Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 16:26:45 -0700 (PDT) CC: Brooks Davis , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , Ian Lepore , FreeBSD Net , "Julian H. Stacey" , Michelle Sullivan , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Community Proposals List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 23:26:50 -0000 > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 5:07 PM Rodney W. Grimes < > freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > > > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 11:33:35PM +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > > > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, > > smc, > > > > > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this > > thread, and > > > > > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today. > > > > > > > > vr is used by my TV driver laptop: > > > > http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/ > > > > vr0: flags=8843 metric 0 mtu > > 1500 > > > > options=82808 > > > > ether 00:40:d0:5e:26:38 > > > > inet 192.168.91.65 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 192.168.91.255 > > > > media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX > > ) > > > > status: active > > > > > > > > Which currently runs 8.4-RELEASE & eg xrandr, but I'll upgrade soon > > > > when I also configure it to receive from a raspberry-pi TV VPN server. > > > > > > The above was a typo. vr is on the the STAY list. > > > > > > -- Brooks > > Brooks, > > Is there a public revised version of FCP-0101 that reflects the > > feedback which is what core is voting on? > > > > Its on github, just like it's been the whole time for anybody to see, > submit pull requests against and track: I have no gh account, desires no gh account, so have no way to submit a change request other than through direct email to brooks or another gh user. This is fundementally flawed. > https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md Thank you for the link, I had looked at it before MeetBSD, which did not have most of the recent changes done "a day ago". Isnt this document now in a frozen state while core reviews/votes? -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Wed Oct 24 00:03:02 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fcp@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79F0B1037A30; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 00:03:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 00D42777FB; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 00:03:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id w9O02uxp025020; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 17:02:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id w9O02tXg025019; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 17:02:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <201810240002.w9O02tXg025019@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers In-Reply-To: <20181023233716.GA15106@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> To: Brooks Davis Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 17:02:55 -0700 (PDT) CC: Warner Losh , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , Ian Lepore , FreeBSD Net , "Julian H. Stacey" , Michelle Sullivan , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Community Proposals List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 00:03:02 -0000 -- Start of PGP signed section. > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 04:26:45PM -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 5:07 PM Rodney W. Grimes < > > > freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 11:33:35PM +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > > > > > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, > > > > smc, > > > > > > > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this > > > > thread, and > > > > > > > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today. > > > > > > > > > > > > vr is used by my TV driver laptop: > > > > > > http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/ > > > > > > vr0: flags=8843 metric 0 mtu > > > > 1500 > > > > > > options=82808 > > > > > > ether 00:40:d0:5e:26:38 > > > > > > inet 192.168.91.65 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 192.168.91.255 > > > > > > media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX > > > > ) > > > > > > status: active > > > > > > > > > > > > Which currently runs 8.4-RELEASE & eg xrandr, but I'll upgrade soon > > > > > > when I also configure it to receive from a raspberry-pi TV VPN server. > > > > > > > > > > The above was a typo. vr is on the the STAY list. > > > > > > > > > > -- Brooks > > > > Brooks, > > > > Is there a public revised version of FCP-0101 that reflects the > > > > feedback which is what core is voting on? > > > > > > > > > > Its on github, just like it's been the whole time for anybody to see, > > > submit pull requests against and track: > > > > I have no gh account, desires no gh account, so have no way to > > submit a change request other than through direct email to > > brooks or another gh user. This is fundementally flawed. > > > > > https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md > > > > Thank you for the link, I had looked at it before MeetBSD, > > which did not have most of the recent changes done "a day ago". > > > > Isnt this document now in a frozen state while core reviews/votes? > > I sent it to a vote at c224c67557297d7cba909ad008542cb60980cc6b only > to notice a bug in table rendering. I submitted a pull request fix > that and a missing word which was merged since neither was material. I > suppose they could have waited or been skipped, but there's no value in > the FCP process being bound by the sort of pointless rigidity that led > to -DPOSIX_MISTAKE in every libc compile line. The FCP process itself is unclear on this point, I think this should be clarified. It is much more clear on post approval: Changes after acceptance FCPs may need revision after they have been moved into the accepted state. In such cases, the author SHOULD update the FCP to reflect the final conclusions. If the changes are major, the FCP SHOULD be withdrawn and restarted. -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Wed Oct 24 00:04:51 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fcp@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A945A1037CD2 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 00:04:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-vk1-xa35.google.com (mail-vk1-xa35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DD31877A32 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 00:04:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-vk1-xa35.google.com with SMTP id d141so811234vke.3 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 17:04:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=HL9+HPYGeQgvgzfdIkooQvpdti3UDljW1vYu7T7v8gg=; b=ZQEsVQyt/tBqmo9KSS9Qy5GxVbWyaGO14qcFSOa+toTgHeSdckI73cZvvmrLq/SRCt Yyx8UK+4KWMhlZCF7yCQAk8bjeH0rArU+UbAWZ86lL2uBRCMZvUGOlWeL1MdJGLPaEeW jVpVnFQOiiHrjgJSvypTNU9D4/+Lcp1j8/qr0tRomm/jls/9/tl2pzxHPnL7h3fzE5ew zyYq45NbNwUl0smaHwzzQOroJrsEBRzxKXmRT8aAC0oOJZy4mtHUmoEFVEMGiUxSlrG3 OUmZ+SSCiTqWDEpe0uMtPU7rx6LjZXw1vhL0MS78Om4z1GedOw++OmRhIRxYSsniFLef 1CJg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=HL9+HPYGeQgvgzfdIkooQvpdti3UDljW1vYu7T7v8gg=; b=AVty2FMJLUuDg/J6NzyRb8p6yeWUSWCXbwe1KAeDh1DpD2bEb0ppRT0UoYo1PemGSI vBcJZKh/g7tsi1ZVM9kKNBfTY8XlgfT3ZwqsY7cEh/8d5QJw1s3A6P7/auiPKwkHB6EW XSLvLZdQ80sEDIjZsL5wMSHDuJdCg/xf/3zJjRctg3oyzfFFlUeXjs7KLdKzHXVgl7TF 7emYY/R4RQgbrhqMFkHHl2V1D4d868g9tWHNQsAsT6W7DDEpQVsX/cYq0hFbdlz3uT1B L646a6syO2XwNaB1+Wsec9cJudkWo1T0AArAyhce/n54LGn3/nYIJh/wiLzPzxKk8xLq Czfw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gI0FTXKLmU/mS31xvM3t3uGiz1ORF7HPH4uoxV192JBqDL9026t 2hCwpQ6TtCoFgCHc3cG0vk0/mkEVYCENiwRyZfaYzg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5fWey/EJ5M4YXEzYWaPf/lgUdOUEH6m4VIK15pRM/L89W3YDbPIGP+carkF0Toc5l81MbE7u3AYQyXve0MhxUw= X-Received: by 2002:a1f:9255:: with SMTP id u82mr166903vkd.85.1540339490149; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 17:04:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <201810232326.w9NNQjtK024759@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> In-Reply-To: <201810232326.w9NNQjtK024759@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> From: Warner Losh Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 18:04:38 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Brooks Davis , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , Ian Lepore , FreeBSD Net , "Julian H. Stacey" , Michelle Sullivan , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Community Proposals List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 00:04:51 -0000 On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 5:26 PM Rodney W. Grimes < freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 5:07 PM Rodney W. Grimes < > > freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 11:33:35PM +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > > > > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, > sn, > > > smc, > > > > > > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this > > > thread, and > > > > > > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today. > > > > > > > > > > vr is used by my TV driver laptop: > > > > > http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/ > > > > > vr0: flags=8843 metric 0 > mtu > > > 1500 > > > > > options=82808 > > > > > ether 00:40:d0:5e:26:38 > > > > > inet 192.168.91.65 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast > 192.168.91.255 > > > > > media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX > > > ) > > > > > status: active > > > > > > > > > > Which currently runs 8.4-RELEASE & eg xrandr, but I'll upgrade soon > > > > > when I also configure it to receive from a raspberry-pi TV VPN > server. > > > > > > > > The above was a typo. vr is on the the STAY list. > > > > > > > > -- Brooks > > > Brooks, > > > Is there a public revised version of FCP-0101 that reflects the > > > feedback which is what core is voting on? > > > > > > > Its on github, just like it's been the whole time for anybody to see, > > submit pull requests against and track: > > I have no gh account, desires no gh account, so have no way to > submit a change request other than through direct email to > brooks or another gh user. This is fundementally flawed. > The fcp process was officially approved by core.9. You can make suggestions to core for improvements to the process. Lord knows this FCP hasn't been trouble free (though we've learned some valuable lessons). Submissions to the author is always an option should you choose not to use the widely used technology we've chosen to automate this process. Some FreeBSD users don't have accounts, however, many non-developers have github accounts and I think it's a reasonable way to do outreach to the larger community w/o requiring everybody to get a freebsd account (since they are already likely to have a github account, and if not they are trivial to get). So yea, it's a flawed process, and we'd love feedback on actionable items we can do to make it better. Warner From owner-freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Tue Oct 23 23:37:17 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fcp@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 884611036F78; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 23:37:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brooks@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net) Received: from spindle.one-eyed-alien.net (spindle.one-eyed-alien.net [199.48.129.229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2230676DC5; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 23:37:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brooks@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net) Received: by spindle.one-eyed-alien.net (Postfix, from userid 3001) id 3BA723C475F; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 23:37:16 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 23:37:16 +0000 From: Brooks Davis To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Warner Losh , Brooks Davis , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , Ian Lepore , FreeBSD Net , "Julian H. Stacey" , Michelle Sullivan , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Message-ID: <20181023233716.GA15106@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> References: <201810232326.w9NNQjtK024759@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201810232326.w9NNQjtK024759@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 00:18:59 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Community Proposals List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 23:37:17 -0000 --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 04:26:45PM -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 5:07 PM Rodney W. Grimes < > > freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > >=20 > > > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 11:33:35PM +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > > > > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb= , sn, > > > smc, > > > > > > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this > > > thread, and > > > > > > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today. > > > > > > > > > > vr is used by my TV driver laptop: > > > > > http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/ > > > > > vr0: flags=3D8843 metric = 0 mtu > > > 1500 > > > > > options=3D82808 > > > > > ether 00:40:d0:5e:26:38 > > > > > inet 192.168.91.65 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 192.168.9= 1.255 > > > > > media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX > > > ) > > > > > status: active > > > > > > > > > > Which currently runs 8.4-RELEASE & eg xrandr, but I'll upgrade so= on > > > > > when I also configure it to receive from a raspberry-pi TV VPN se= rver. > > > > > > > > The above was a typo. vr is on the the STAY list. > > > > > > > > -- Brooks > > > Brooks, > > > Is there a public revised version of FCP-0101 that reflects t= he > > > feedback which is what core is voting on? > > > > >=20 > > Its on github, just like it's been the whole time for anybody to see, > > submit pull requests against and track: >=20 > I have no gh account, desires no gh account, so have no way to > submit a change request other than through direct email to > brooks or another gh user. This is fundementally flawed. >=20 > > https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md >=20 > Thank you for the link, I had looked at it before MeetBSD, > which did not have most of the recent changes done "a day ago". >=20 > Isnt this document now in a frozen state while core reviews/votes? I sent it to a vote at c224c67557297d7cba909ad008542cb60980cc6b only to notice a bug in table rendering. I submitted a pull request fix that and a missing word which was merged since neither was material. I suppose they could have waited or been skipped, but there's no value in the FCP process being bound by the sort of pointless rigidity that led to -DPOSIX_MISTAKE in every libc compile line. -- Brooks --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJbz7CqAAoJEKzQXbSebgfAwOAH/0CWmIrkKsSqGjFGNeSFO7re C8i1rzIuZ4p589nhKWRfaIRC6h5FaAlBD6+/1PR3gsMwFebHVT8CcH34khy2voiJ 1TYDn6atuTqbJapp8pPH0xV56ZNr2iTMVwRU52jzGY9+gJU7uDqAcisI66U8Suqx S0tHsVZab+j4sNgCPTU5LnQ/+AYPUp5v5Gmgd4rlgYjZEA8F9YnMgtCv5c07tfdm ynN3l0DnTg3u2IQnExRh6OU9WTy/ggjBfQmcg7fCL9JAwrrkCukkyvXILmFmBuhn eShpFUzFR9rKAzYsJ92WSUviJLzB5DKDCYAUeXz0qozK9mAt75J5FYKUS/0hDBk= =dMkV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J-- From owner-freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Wed Oct 24 00:24:07 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fcp@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E813103929D for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 00:24:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-vs1-xe36.google.com (mail-vs1-xe36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C720D793A4 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 00:24:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-vs1-xe36.google.com with SMTP id c205so2077902vsd.3 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 17:24:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=SS4/vRIDN3nSI7h+BewXYbgGlXMEHgS4+tsxfZcZHQo=; b=wboELGjzXBDCycqu+LGI0xcQMEOa3yknBp3GRdgC4mu4wFuI5KmWw45JUU4yOuBN79 J4uniRe3obgZ9i/b2b6GLpa2EoLjAD2IPrblIGfC79Pyq+ixNRn0UCf2LC8Hcq/Yiu+n aWE57VypU60eqUkhGAArRHCJ1FKrnA5bOwmQb1o+FXBMmpgyVPb3ZqGDgdD6oQ6gODiR 7o9/iQqsLgJfhThy0bIGnFoTlUuYcqjIWe03BCEcCU5puPqifqkLs/aBeM81SBkO97jI 09Hr+Mz0urUL/Ei8NVnakGe/ySMM5hRYBDHXf+8cTcyN0g0ylfSx0JIXOxmErHr9O+Ow M3lQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=SS4/vRIDN3nSI7h+BewXYbgGlXMEHgS4+tsxfZcZHQo=; b=I/JI/i5D2cZkzZyq/JV9wY7hbKRvTO+qh1Ub8bz1rQjICWtVj9fudywhJYFBew8Tfa E8dIneZ7+acDmE+wn+m9aytI+JSb0eItMHTIq6Y0nQrW2/YJN3gTGK6aoTl+Y2nphFzq 1wL3r8TsDcZrq4Z8rMAr0N9dm5VwCZ/q3DdnbxfdtjAcVkaIS30PZuzZz18lTUfZnXO0 QSfILFviPhlBfbwpmwhvCcMlLGFfMCeJNv2QDU13NeBrPCS9Sn1FhVAMcUv0KjIt+Jz5 mHFz7xtQWIClnmF4pFe1rgTdnwt2W5Op/uwRi27x5uMeN2iRZxhlLvRWP1m053rBs9+r YpTQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gLL4r82HFv9gnrURJ9PEYWBDp/mMOHiTengfWHEhkotIhkzp9un Y0RHdLMLzEotEpARsd3FCHFlWqvjkwxHzl4DGxf6EA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5fSQRhJXab0fsNki2NiNyF3nK4ySn3P+mjTGaoINWRPvoURpNfTrzDMKbHdyIrJ+HKU9PkbVY6XT7Zn//wsmoo= X-Received: by 2002:a67:4988:: with SMTP id d8mr193821vsg.41.1540340645958; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 17:24:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181023233716.GA15106@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <201810240002.w9O02tXg025019@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> In-Reply-To: <201810240002.w9O02tXg025019@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> From: Warner Losh Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 18:23:54 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Brooks Davis , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , Ian Lepore , FreeBSD Net , "Julian H. Stacey" , Michelle Sullivan , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Community Proposals List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 00:24:07 -0000 On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 6:02 PM Rodney W. Grimes < freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > -- Start of PGP signed section. > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 04:26:45PM -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > > > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 5:07 PM Rodney W. Grimes < > > > > freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 11:33:35PM +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > > > > > > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, > wb, sn, > > > > > smc, > > > > > > > > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this > > > > > thread, and > > > > > > > > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age > today. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vr is used by my TV driver laptop: > > > > > > > http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/ > > > > > > > vr0: flags=8843 metric > 0 mtu > > > > > 1500 > > > > > > > options=82808 > > > > > > > ether 00:40:d0:5e:26:38 > > > > > > > inet 192.168.91.65 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast > 192.168.91.255 > > > > > > > media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX > > > > > ) > > > > > > > status: active > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which currently runs 8.4-RELEASE & eg xrandr, but I'll upgrade > soon > > > > > > > when I also configure it to receive from a raspberry-pi TV VPN > server. > > > > > > > > > > > > The above was a typo. vr is on the the STAY list. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Brooks > > > > > Brooks, > > > > > Is there a public revised version of FCP-0101 that > reflects the > > > > > feedback which is what core is voting on? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its on github, just like it's been the whole time for anybody to see, > > > > submit pull requests against and track: > > > > > > I have no gh account, desires no gh account, so have no way to > > > submit a change request other than through direct email to > > > brooks or another gh user. This is fundementally flawed. > > > > > > > https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md > > > > > > Thank you for the link, I had looked at it before MeetBSD, > > > which did not have most of the recent changes done "a day ago". > > > > > > Isnt this document now in a frozen state while core reviews/votes? > > > > I sent it to a vote at c224c67557297d7cba909ad008542cb60980cc6b only > > to notice a bug in table rendering. I submitted a pull request fix > > that and a missing word which was merged since neither was material. I > > suppose they could have waited or been skipped, but there's no value in > > the FCP process being bound by the sort of pointless rigidity that led > > to -DPOSIX_MISTAKE in every libc compile line. > > The FCP process itself is unclear on this point, > I think this should be clarified. > > It is much more clear on post approval: > Changes after acceptance > > FCPs may need revision after they have been moved into the > accepted state. In such cases, the author SHOULD update the > FCP to reflect the final conclusions. > If the changes are major, the FCP SHOULD be withdrawn > and restarted. > Good point Rod. While common sense suggests that trivial changes during the voting should be allowed for editorial purposes (eg fix grammar mistakes, table rendering etc), it's better to spell that out so there's no confusion. diff --git a/fcp-0000.md b/fcp-0000.md index b4fe0f3..c8cc6f7 100644 --- a/fcp-0000.md +++ b/fcp-0000.md @@ -144,7 +144,10 @@ When the discussion of a change has come to a suitable and acceptable close it SHOULD be updated to the `vote` state. At this time the FreeBSD Core Team will vote on the subject of the FCP. The -result of vote moves the FCP into the `accepted` or `rejected` state. +result of vote moves the FCP into the `accepted` or `rejected` state. The +core team MAY make minor edits to the FCP to correct minor mistakes. Core +MAY return the proposal to the submitter if there are major problems that +need to be addressed. FCPs in the `accepted` state can be updated and corrected. See the "Changes after acceptance" section for more information. Normally I'd submit that as a pull request, but since I know you don't use github, I thought I'd present it here to see if this answers your concerns before doing so. Warner From owner-freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Wed Oct 24 00:33:20 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fcp@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 282EF1039921; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 00:33:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ABD9C79AA3; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 00:33:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id w9O0XFXN025274; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 17:33:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id w9O0XEep025273; Tue, 23 Oct 2018 17:33:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <201810240033.w9O0XEep025273@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers In-Reply-To: To: Warner Losh Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 17:33:14 -0700 (PDT) CC: Brooks Davis , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , Ian Lepore , FreeBSD Net , "Julian H. Stacey" , Michelle Sullivan , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Community Proposals List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 00:33:20 -0000 > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 6:02 PM Rodney W. Grimes < > freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: ... deleted un relavent text ... > > > > > > Brooks, > > > > > > Is there a public revised version of FCP-0101 that > > reflects the > > > > > > feedback which is what core is voting on? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its on github, just like it's been the whole time for anybody to see, > > > > > submit pull requests against and track: > > > > > > > > I have no gh account, desires no gh account, so have no way to > > > > submit a change request other than through direct email to > > > > brooks or another gh user. This is fundementally flawed. > > > > > > > > > https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md > > > > > > > > Thank you for the link, I had looked at it before MeetBSD, > > > > which did not have most of the recent changes done "a day ago". > > > > > > > > Isnt this document now in a frozen state while core reviews/votes? > > > > > > I sent it to a vote at c224c67557297d7cba909ad008542cb60980cc6b only > > > to notice a bug in table rendering. I submitted a pull request fix > > > that and a missing word which was merged since neither was material. I > > > suppose they could have waited or been skipped, but there's no value in > > > the FCP process being bound by the sort of pointless rigidity that led > > > to -DPOSIX_MISTAKE in every libc compile line. > > > > The FCP process itself is unclear on this point, > > I think this should be clarified. > > > > It is much more clear on post approval: > > Changes after acceptance > > > > FCPs may need revision after they have been moved into the > > accepted state. In such cases, the author SHOULD update the > > FCP to reflect the final conclusions. > > If the changes are major, the FCP SHOULD be withdrawn > > and restarted. > > > > Good point Rod. While common sense suggests that trivial changes during the > voting should be allowed for editorial purposes (eg fix grammar mistakes, > table rendering etc), it's better to spell that out so there's no confusion. Agreed. > > diff --git a/fcp-0000.md b/fcp-0000.md > index b4fe0f3..c8cc6f7 100644 > --- a/fcp-0000.md > +++ b/fcp-0000.md > @@ -144,7 +144,10 @@ When the discussion of a change has come to a suitable > and acceptable close it > SHOULD be updated to the `vote` state. > > At this time the FreeBSD Core Team will vote on the subject of the FCP. The > -result of vote moves the FCP into the `accepted` or `rejected` state. > +result of vote moves the FCP into the `accepted` or `rejected` state. The > +core team MAY make minor edits to the FCP to correct minor mistakes. Core > +MAY return the proposal to the submitter if there are major problems that > +need to be addressed. This allows and clarifies that core may modify it, it does not address if the author/submitter can modify it. > > FCPs in the `accepted` state can be updated and corrected. > See the "Changes after acceptance" section for more information. > > Normally I'd submit that as a pull request, but since I know you don't use > github, I thought I'd present it here to see if this answers your concerns > before doing so. I thank you very much for that consideration, -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Wed Oct 24 13:05:21 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fcp@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7129E1079D02; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:05:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9B60286F1B; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:05:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id w9OCJakm027721; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 05:19:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id w9OCJXTd027720; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 05:19:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <201810241219.w9OCJXTd027720@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers In-Reply-To: <9257C84A-CA7C-42B9-9AD8-89AE33C96356@gid.co.uk> To: Bob Bishop Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 05:19:33 -0700 (PDT) CC: Warner Losh , Brooks Davis , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , Ian Lepore , FreeBSD Net , "Julian H. Stacey" , Michelle Sullivan , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:44:35 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Community Proposals List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:05:21 -0000 > > On 24 Oct 2018, at 01:23, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 6:02 PM Rodney W. Grimes < > > freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > > > >> -- Start of PGP signed section. > >>> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 04:26:45PM -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > >>>>> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 5:07 PM Rodney W. Grimes < > >>>>> freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 11:33:35PM +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > >>>>>>>>> I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, > >> wb, sn, > >>>>>> smc, > >>>>>>>>> sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this > >>>>>> thread, and > >>>>>>>>> which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age > >> today. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> vr is used by my TV driver laptop: > >>>>>>>> http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/ > >>>>>>>> vr0: flags=8843 metric > >> 0 mtu > >>>>>> 1500 > >>>>>>>> options=82808 > >>>>>>>> ether 00:40:d0:5e:26:38 > >>>>>>>> inet 192.168.91.65 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast > >> 192.168.91.255 > >>>>>>>> media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX > >>>>>> ) > >>>>>>>> status: active > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Which currently runs 8.4-RELEASE & eg xrandr, but I'll upgrade > >> soon > >>>>>>>> when I also configure it to receive from a raspberry-pi TV VPN > >> server. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The above was a typo. vr is on the the STAY list. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -- Brooks > >>>>>> Brooks, > >>>>>> Is there a public revised version of FCP-0101 that > >> reflects the > >>>>>> feedback which is what core is voting on? > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Its on github, just like it's been the whole time for anybody to see, > >>>>> submit pull requests against and track: > >>>> > >>>> I have no gh account, desires no gh account, so have no way to > >>>> submit a change request other than through direct email to > >>>> brooks or another gh user. This is fundementally flawed. > >>>> > >>>>> https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md > >>>> > >>>> Thank you for the link, I had looked at it before MeetBSD, > >>>> which did not have most of the recent changes done "a day ago". > >>>> > >>>> Isnt this document now in a frozen state while core reviews/votes? > >>> > >>> I sent it to a vote at c224c67557297d7cba909ad008542cb60980cc6b only > >>> to notice a bug in table rendering. I submitted a pull request fix > >>> that and a missing word which was merged since neither was material. I > >>> suppose they could have waited or been skipped, but there's no value in > >>> the FCP process being bound by the sort of pointless rigidity that led > >>> to -DPOSIX_MISTAKE in every libc compile line. > >> > >> The FCP process itself is unclear on this point, > >> I think this should be clarified. > >> > >> It is much more clear on post approval: > >> Changes after acceptance > >> > >> FCPs may need revision after they have been moved into the > >> accepted state. In such cases, the author SHOULD update the > >> FCP to reflect the final conclusions. > >> If the changes are major, the FCP SHOULD be withdrawn > >> and restarted. > >> > > > > Good point Rod. While common sense suggests that trivial changes during the > > voting should be allowed for editorial purposes (eg fix grammar mistakes, > > table rendering etc), it's better to spell that out so there's no confusion. > > > > diff --git a/fcp-0000.md b/fcp-0000.md > > index b4fe0f3..c8cc6f7 100644 > > --- a/fcp-0000.md > > +++ b/fcp-0000.md > > @@ -144,7 +144,10 @@ When the discussion of a change has come to a suitable > > and acceptable close it > > SHOULD be updated to the `vote` state. > > > > At this time the FreeBSD Core Team will vote on the subject of the FCP. The > > -result of vote moves the FCP into the `accepted` or `rejected` state. > > +result of vote moves the FCP into the `accepted` or `rejected` state. The > > +core team MAY make minor edits to the FCP to correct minor mistakes. Core > > +MAY return the proposal to the submitter if there are major problems that > > +need to be addressed. > > This is a Bad Idea, because it relies on common understanding of what is minor. I was once involved with a standards body that had a procedure for so-called clerical errors intended to deal with typos, punctuation etc; this worked just fine until somebody claimed that the omission of the word ?not? in a particular place was clearly a clerical error. And I have read case law that boiled down to the presents vs absence of a comma in an agreement that had results far beyond "minor". Use of words minor and major should be red flags unless both or explicitly defined, and even then those definitions often have issues themselves. > > FCPs in the `accepted` state can be updated and corrected. > > See the "Changes after acceptance" section for more information. > > > > Normally I'd submit that as a pull request, but since I know you don't use > > github, I thought I'd present it here to see if this answers your concerns > > before doing so. > > > > Warner > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list > > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > -- > Bob Bishop > rb@gid.co.uk -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Wed Oct 24 13:59:46 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fcp@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6041BFE92F9; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:59:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C4656910C8; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:59:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id w9ODxg2o028398; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 06:59:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id w9ODxgF8028397; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 06:59:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <201810241359.w9ODxgF8028397@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers In-Reply-To: To: Warner Losh Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 06:59:42 -0700 (PDT) CC: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-net@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Community Proposals List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:59:46 -0000 ... deleted ... ... cc list trimmed, getting too many recepient gripes from mailman ... > > > > diff --git a/fcp-0000.md b/fcp-0000.md > > > > index b4fe0f3..c8cc6f7 100644 > > > > --- a/fcp-0000.md > > > > +++ b/fcp-0000.md > > > > @@ -144,7 +144,10 @@ When the discussion of a change has come to a > > suitable > > > > and acceptable close it > > > > SHOULD be updated to the `vote` state. > > > > > > > > At this time the FreeBSD Core Team will vote on the subject of the > > FCP. The > > > > -result of vote moves the FCP into the `accepted` or `rejected` state. > > > > +result of vote moves the FCP into the `accepted` or `rejected` state. > > The > > > > +core team MAY make minor edits to the FCP to correct minor mistakes. > > Core > > > > +MAY return the proposal to the submitter if there are major problems > > that > > > > +need to be addressed. > > > > > > This is a Bad Idea, because it relies on common understanding of what is > > minor. I was once involved with a standards body that had a procedure for > > so-called clerical errors intended to deal with typos, punctuation etc; > > this worked just fine until somebody claimed that the omission of the word > > ?not? in a particular place was clearly a clerical error. > > > > And I have read case law that boiled down to the presents vs absence > > of a comma in an agreement that had results far beyond "minor". > > > > Use of words minor and major should be red flags unless both > > or explicitly defined, and even then those definitions often > > have issues themselves. > > > > I'm not going to define every single word. FCP documents describe process. > They are not legal documents, nor should they be. Major and minor have > common enough meanings, and the basis of bylaws is that we trust core@. The trust isssue is not core (though in this specific case it is a core member submitting the FCP, that is not going to be the case always). The trust issue is do we allow the Author to make this minor/major change decission and how does core get informed that it has happened? -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Wed Oct 24 14:05:50 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fcp@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1466FE9D4A; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 14:05:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from land.berklix.org (land.berklix.org [144.76.10.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "land.berklix.org", Issuer "land.berklix.org" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E07292072; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 14:05:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from mart.js.berklix.net (p2E52CCDC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [46.82.204.220]) (authenticated bits=0) by land.berklix.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w9OE5hYG000884 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 24 Oct 2018 14:05:47 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by mart.js.berklix.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id w9OE5cPE043465; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 16:05:38 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id w9OE5QmW040635; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 16:05:38 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Message-Id: <201810241405.w9OE5QmW040635@fire.js.berklix.net> To: "FreeBSD-Stable Mail List " , FreeBSD Net Mail List"" , "FreeBSD Arch Mail List" , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers From: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: http://berklix.eu BSD Unix Linux Consultants, Munich Germany User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://berklix.eu/free/ X-From: http://www.berklix.eu/~jhs/ In-reply-to: Your message "Wed, 24 Oct 2018 07:44:26 -0600." Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 16:05:26 +0200 X-BeenThere: freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Community Proposals List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 14:05:50 -0000 I suggest posters to this lively thread could strip inherited personal CC addresses . Then ~/.procmailrc that sorts list mail away from real personal ~/mail/Inbox will protect xbiff from beeping so much :-) Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich. Brexit referendum stole 3,700,000 Brits votes abroad, inc. 700,000 in EU. Campaign lies, criminal funding, economy & pound down. Time for an honest ref. http://exitbrexit.uk https://www.peoples-vote.uk/petition https://eci.ec.europa.eu/002/public/#/initiative From owner-freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Wed Oct 24 13:09:52 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fcp@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2ECC107A88E; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:09:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rb@gid.co.uk) Received: from mx0.gid.co.uk (mx0.gid.co.uk [194.32.164.250]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6283988C3C; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:09:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rb@gid.co.uk) Received: from [194.32.164.30] ([194.32.164.30]) by mx0.gid.co.uk (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id w9OB2V7V059852; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:02:32 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from rb@gid.co.uk) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers From: Bob Bishop In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:02:29 +0100 Cc: "Rodney W. Grimes" , Brooks Davis , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , Ian Lepore , FreeBSD Net , "Julian H. Stacey" , Michelle Sullivan , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9257C84A-CA7C-42B9-9AD8-89AE33C96356@gid.co.uk> References: <20181023233716.GA15106@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <201810240002.w9O02tXg025019@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> To: Warner Losh X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 14:07:21 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Community Proposals List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:09:52 -0000 > On 24 Oct 2018, at 01:23, Warner Losh wrote: >=20 > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 6:02 PM Rodney W. Grimes < > freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: >=20 >> -- Start of PGP signed section. >>> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 04:26:45PM -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: >>>>> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 5:07 PM Rodney W. Grimes < >>>>> freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 11:33:35PM +0200, Julian H. Stacey = wrote: >>>>>>>>> I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, >> wb, sn, >>>>>> smc, >>>>>>>>> sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this >>>>>> thread, and >>>>>>>>> which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age >> today. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> vr is used by my TV driver laptop: >>>>>>>> http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/ >>>>>>>> vr0: flags=3D8843 = metric >> 0 mtu >>>>>> 1500 >>>>>>>> options=3D82808 >>>>>>>> ether 00:40:d0:5e:26:38 >>>>>>>> inet 192.168.91.65 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast >> 192.168.91.255 >>>>>>>> media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX >>>>>> ) >>>>>>>> status: active >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Which currently runs 8.4-RELEASE & eg xrandr, but I'll upgrade >> soon >>>>>>>> when I also configure it to receive from a raspberry-pi TV VPN >> server. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> The above was a typo. vr is on the the STAY list. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> -- Brooks >>>>>> Brooks, >>>>>> Is there a public revised version of FCP-0101 that >> reflects the >>>>>> feedback which is what core is voting on? >>>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Its on github, just like it's been the whole time for anybody to = see, >>>>> submit pull requests against and track: >>>>=20 >>>> I have no gh account, desires no gh account, so have no way to >>>> submit a change request other than through direct email to >>>> brooks or another gh user. This is fundementally flawed. >>>>=20 >>>>> https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md >>>>=20 >>>> Thank you for the link, I had looked at it before MeetBSD, >>>> which did not have most of the recent changes done "a day ago". >>>>=20 >>>> Isnt this document now in a frozen state while core reviews/votes? >>>=20 >>> I sent it to a vote at c224c67557297d7cba909ad008542cb60980cc6b only >>> to notice a bug in table rendering. I submitted a pull request fix >>> that and a missing word which was merged since neither was material. = I >>> suppose they could have waited or been skipped, but there's no value = in >>> the FCP process being bound by the sort of pointless rigidity that = led >>> to -DPOSIX_MISTAKE in every libc compile line. >>=20 >> The FCP process itself is unclear on this point, >> I think this should be clarified. >>=20 >> It is much more clear on post approval: >> Changes after acceptance >>=20 >> FCPs may need revision after they have been moved into the >> accepted state. In such cases, the author SHOULD update the >> FCP to reflect the final conclusions. >> If the changes are major, the FCP SHOULD be withdrawn >> and restarted. >>=20 >=20 > Good point Rod. While common sense suggests that trivial changes = during the > voting should be allowed for editorial purposes (eg fix grammar = mistakes, > table rendering etc), it's better to spell that out so there's no = confusion. >=20 > diff --git a/fcp-0000.md b/fcp-0000.md > index b4fe0f3..c8cc6f7 100644 > --- a/fcp-0000.md > +++ b/fcp-0000.md > @@ -144,7 +144,10 @@ When the discussion of a change has come to a = suitable > and acceptable close it > SHOULD be updated to the `vote` state. >=20 > At this time the FreeBSD Core Team will vote on the subject of the = FCP. The > -result of vote moves the FCP into the `accepted` or `rejected` state. > +result of vote moves the FCP into the `accepted` or `rejected` state. = The > +core team MAY make minor edits to the FCP to correct minor mistakes. = Core > +MAY return the proposal to the submitter if there are major problems = that > +need to be addressed. This is a Bad Idea, because it relies on common understanding of what is = minor. I was once involved with a standards body that had a procedure = for so-called clerical errors intended to deal with typos, punctuation = etc; this worked just fine until somebody claimed that the omission of = the word =E2=80=9Cnot=E2=80=9D in a particular place was clearly a = clerical error. > FCPs in the `accepted` state can be updated and corrected. > See the "Changes after acceptance" section for more information. >=20 > Normally I'd submit that as a pull request, but since I know you don't = use > github, I thought I'd present it here to see if this answers your = concerns > before doing so. >=20 > Warner > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable > To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-stable-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >=20 -- Bob Bishop rb@gid.co.uk From owner-freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Wed Oct 24 13:39:34 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fcp@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9FE9FD95E6 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:39:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-ua1-x92c.google.com (mail-ua1-x92c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::92c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CFF458E417 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:39:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-ua1-x92c.google.com with SMTP id c10so1854808uao.12 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 06:39:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Ce+lKE4X4hw50P1h1G+iDhJtzQKtDvxqDUQWTCm/zKE=; b=U+gSsvik04vqMe9Cc/8IVBPsC9F3pOozU2dAod8wjwSmYH5J/EryEqaIo+wJDRWP6M UBVdeSQOhhm1cwjVJUbAYD5IGydWBDvb8tqy1uAQM9WpKSJ+0gv5r2BR3UX64UPqn+l5 b0us1D7JlZtuxBE4Cie7oLXD+h1OxnaXVauuk8Aq1pzeKRO1bJvCXsLUMBR+r97SLR+a x39fwWRc1iI5YcHO+EYr2tbgjcKA16H0nQANlAUIJDOPu5bOqutUlIvcip8OQ/JHWXde bxXFGYkHV9pkQvuO1yLsBPWlh1f4QXfB363eApiGjLs6QPgCOLVyqwD7GzVwc7TKQ8QP 9csA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Ce+lKE4X4hw50P1h1G+iDhJtzQKtDvxqDUQWTCm/zKE=; b=r5w4v8RjdO/drkMve/nC3XE6+nfUUZ7KhJ1tgu1mxcKMxKFrgLPpDgDlZmoivULgKt p19d5ALmrEtczlryI7vaxDHhmazYVnS+KnqVSgp6Jqk4BX34YdbAx182yZTI7iOygHlQ poZH13RRxVLVa0jVsonuYM+8qHsMRz6gOcEr08Gt9wihV7XdFI7VyRGV2YtwgBVWyt1j UJD0pjG+aAgXOcn79Xugg1ylygvOdgbPaUVshxukmEXqZ5mUSI3ry5uAz1KqJTODnlOu dEauzcTnwzl7H1kv6V94SwY7KlcycBsmdogRX9BEcvXWYq8XGp/B/Isc22Xdtniq1Oqr N4lA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gLifsbd5a9mSMFkvDcKg59ZZ5qQVw0cRDGOYFtLA+oBOpZk+dFG n4/h6IWFQ3mELJ8NiucBIquyX3uSyW9YJ32yc95NIw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5dirytD25FAxg9qrHowfcJcAQMkWc1rCZbTcOiTB+772fCVD9SZwrRxVtIsVSuu2+xgSV9/oiAxNMSf6H3WmVI= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:53c3:: with SMTP id l3mr1139500uaa.16.1540388371742; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 06:39:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181023233716.GA15106@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <201810240002.w9O02tXg025019@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> <9257C84A-CA7C-42B9-9AD8-89AE33C96356@gid.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <9257C84A-CA7C-42B9-9AD8-89AE33C96356@gid.co.uk> From: Warner Losh Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 07:39:20 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: Bob Bishop Cc: "Rodney W. Grimes" , Brooks Davis , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , Ian Lepore , FreeBSD Net , "Julian H. Stacey" , Michelle Sullivan , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 14:07:21 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Community Proposals List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:39:34 -0000 On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 5:02 AM Bob Bishop wrote: > > > On 24 Oct 2018, at 01:23, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 6:02 PM Rodney W. Grimes < > > freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > > > >> -- Start of PGP signed section. > >>> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 04:26:45PM -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > >>>>> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 5:07 PM Rodney W. Grimes < > >>>>> freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 11:33:35PM +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > >>>>>>>>> I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, > >> wb, sn, > >>>>>> smc, > >>>>>>>>> sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this > >>>>>> thread, and > >>>>>>>>> which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age > >> today. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> vr is used by my TV driver laptop: > >>>>>>>> http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/ > >>>>>>>> vr0: flags=3D8843 metric > >> 0 mtu > >>>>>> 1500 > >>>>>>>> options=3D82808 > >>>>>>>> ether 00:40:d0:5e:26:38 > >>>>>>>> inet 192.168.91.65 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast > >> 192.168.91.255 > >>>>>>>> media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX > >>>>>> ) > >>>>>>>> status: active > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Which currently runs 8.4-RELEASE & eg xrandr, but I'll upgrade > >> soon > >>>>>>>> when I also configure it to receive from a raspberry-pi TV VPN > >> server. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The above was a typo. vr is on the the STAY list. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -- Brooks > >>>>>> Brooks, > >>>>>> Is there a public revised version of FCP-0101 that > >> reflects the > >>>>>> feedback which is what core is voting on? > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Its on github, just like it's been the whole time for anybody to se= e, > >>>>> submit pull requests against and track: > >>>> > >>>> I have no gh account, desires no gh account, so have no way to > >>>> submit a change request other than through direct email to > >>>> brooks or another gh user. This is fundementally flawed. > >>>> > >>>>> https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md > >>>> > >>>> Thank you for the link, I had looked at it before MeetBSD, > >>>> which did not have most of the recent changes done "a day ago". > >>>> > >>>> Isnt this document now in a frozen state while core reviews/votes? > >>> > >>> I sent it to a vote at c224c67557297d7cba909ad008542cb60980cc6b only > >>> to notice a bug in table rendering. I submitted a pull request fix > >>> that and a missing word which was merged since neither was material. = I > >>> suppose they could have waited or been skipped, but there's no value = in > >>> the FCP process being bound by the sort of pointless rigidity that le= d > >>> to -DPOSIX_MISTAKE in every libc compile line. > >> > >> The FCP process itself is unclear on this point, > >> I think this should be clarified. > >> > >> It is much more clear on post approval: > >> Changes after acceptance > >> > >> FCPs may need revision after they have been moved into the > >> accepted state. In such cases, the author SHOULD update the > >> FCP to reflect the final conclusions. > >> If the changes are major, the FCP SHOULD be withdrawn > >> and restarted. > >> > > > > Good point Rod. While common sense suggests that trivial changes during > the > > voting should be allowed for editorial purposes (eg fix grammar mistake= s, > > table rendering etc), it's better to spell that out so there's no > confusion. > > > > diff --git a/fcp-0000.md b/fcp-0000.md > > index b4fe0f3..c8cc6f7 100644 > > --- a/fcp-0000.md > > +++ b/fcp-0000.md > > @@ -144,7 +144,10 @@ When the discussion of a change has come to a > suitable > > and acceptable close it > > SHOULD be updated to the `vote` state. > > > > At this time the FreeBSD Core Team will vote on the subject of the FCP. > The > > -result of vote moves the FCP into the `accepted` or `rejected` state. > > +result of vote moves the FCP into the `accepted` or `rejected` state. > The > > +core team MAY make minor edits to the FCP to correct minor mistakes. > Core > > +MAY return the proposal to the submitter if there are major problems > that > > +need to be addressed. > > This is a Bad Idea, because it relies on common understanding of what is > minor. I was once involved with a standards body that had a procedure for > so-called clerical errors intended to deal with typos, punctuation etc; > this worked just fine until somebody claimed that the omission of the wor= d > =E2=80=9Cnot=E2=80=9D in a particular place was clearly a clerical error. > This documents procedure. It's not law. Trying to read it as law is a mistake: it's written to be brief and descriptive, not through and prescriptive. And that's on purpose. Axiom 1 of the bylaws is that you can trust the core team, which is why the power grant is total and unequivocal: Core is the governing body of the project. If you can't trust the core team and need anything more, you've already list. And over the years core's biggest failing isn't some fleet of black helicopters dispatched to take out critics or other shenanigans. It's either been not doing enough for the situation (due to too little time and/or a mistaken impression that they couldn't do anything), or it's lack of clear communication either between the different 'hats' and core or between core and the rest of the project. Warner From owner-freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Wed Oct 24 13:44:39 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fcp@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F17FFD9D01 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:44:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-ua1-x942.google.com (mail-ua1-x942.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::942]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 007308EE6A for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:44:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-ua1-x942.google.com with SMTP id j13so1872811ual.0 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 06:44:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=2DXuiWjjvcOgNMSyAZpPAN2uFGwXsKfvo59f+0Wz8a8=; b=pakNqQO+a2iHXaLpQNJT7nQWWAUlaYzNRuEnD4cw+F6Pg8NaDxOoM6yBiOY1iv2Hlj 6myGynn/mzSC4NBljs7ZuxAmxQXzj32xHmKCIGuFBqIpNRUGn/mPAsPiDhhplhb0q4GZ OcEiR8fYCc7F3R4jj+1WGsWNuW9xA4LpjN437whWF2ODtYJYbLVEzHqnHzi50Uy09mwn yWQRI1yqjA3OMyDLgfCr9vVkKfYCPsZo+zNLeixPL3lJmshz+QSedGB5jYXvMbDzzj3I I7KtN7szGN8l6uwowpAptokfPvg49gG4zFbjn3cTN5EYg3vtfedplZE6C4iENlyeqtwV uutw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=2DXuiWjjvcOgNMSyAZpPAN2uFGwXsKfvo59f+0Wz8a8=; b=K24nf2HuMARnpIcYt+5gRIKU93YoXC5ab+jiDmbNcxiVnyke1c8UhfldrqkZoOKO9V jonq/dzz0KJIT/Pue00phphVv73wZpr+3CfhF/pQm+G0rITbqx5n6aRuLH7UNE68pL9I AI1Qf2clDlKdoZyG0jj0e60ZyZC5tZ82jnL1+XCk8ehMTnxWUlsRb0bxWEfwD26vQtyz NcH2D+VXG1y6uutZNhPaJqrkeD+w3i46hhHef8TRL3JHIYjFx3J6xvWL7VmYDwX/mgRi 4P4Rw5uVSXzbhbqJMJrWZ6MxvxuQHrp8TlgjGH1H+I29wnC5prxN66MNPMzinvybPttj mFfQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gLG+i8D4Ghj5EEYoSZd1/2KcbEo7yg5p69wl0FcB/w/7i8TxMmz O1AuqRBYwb/M/IzLyDed+F8Ku+LIWTBz3L9sMDT9eg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5dXkqJdUZq4ZQb1kNFWEuItozQybopyAqw8QaVs+hio60L1zj0p7kVMYK7KrYehJ5NhaIkIAAZFf67lTEL9Bxc= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:14a4:: with SMTP id d33mr1115424uae.41.1540388678365; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 06:44:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9257C84A-CA7C-42B9-9AD8-89AE33C96356@gid.co.uk> <201810241219.w9OCJXTd027720@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> In-Reply-To: <201810241219.w9OCJXTd027720@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> From: Warner Losh Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 07:44:26 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Bob Bishop , Brooks Davis , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , Ian Lepore , FreeBSD Net , "Julian H. Stacey" , Michelle Sullivan , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 14:07:21 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Community Proposals List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:44:39 -0000 On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 6:19 AM Rodney W. Grimes < freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > > > On 24 Oct 2018, at 01:23, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 6:02 PM Rodney W. Grimes < > > > freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > > > > > >> -- Start of PGP signed section. > > >>> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 04:26:45PM -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > > >>>>> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 5:07 PM Rodney W. Grimes < > > >>>>> freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 11:33:35PM +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, > > >> wb, sn, > > >>>>>> smc, > > >>>>>>>>> sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this > > >>>>>> thread, and > > >>>>>>>>> which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age > > >> today. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> vr is used by my TV driver laptop: > > >>>>>>>> http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/ > > >>>>>>>> vr0: flags=8843 metric > > >> 0 mtu > > >>>>>> 1500 > > >>>>>>>> options=82808 > > >>>>>>>> ether 00:40:d0:5e:26:38 > > >>>>>>>> inet 192.168.91.65 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast > > >> 192.168.91.255 > > >>>>>>>> media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX > > >>>>>> ) > > >>>>>>>> status: active > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Which currently runs 8.4-RELEASE & eg xrandr, but I'll upgrade > > >> soon > > >>>>>>>> when I also configure it to receive from a raspberry-pi TV VPN > > >> server. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> The above was a typo. vr is on the the STAY list. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> -- Brooks > > >>>>>> Brooks, > > >>>>>> Is there a public revised version of FCP-0101 that > > >> reflects the > > >>>>>> feedback which is what core is voting on? > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Its on github, just like it's been the whole time for anybody to > see, > > >>>>> submit pull requests against and track: > > >>>> > > >>>> I have no gh account, desires no gh account, so have no way to > > >>>> submit a change request other than through direct email to > > >>>> brooks or another gh user. This is fundementally flawed. > > >>>> > > >>>>> https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md > > >>>> > > >>>> Thank you for the link, I had looked at it before MeetBSD, > > >>>> which did not have most of the recent changes done "a day ago". > > >>>> > > >>>> Isnt this document now in a frozen state while core reviews/votes? > > >>> > > >>> I sent it to a vote at c224c67557297d7cba909ad008542cb60980cc6b only > > >>> to notice a bug in table rendering. I submitted a pull request fix > > >>> that and a missing word which was merged since neither was > material. I > > >>> suppose they could have waited or been skipped, but there's no value > in > > >>> the FCP process being bound by the sort of pointless rigidity that > led > > >>> to -DPOSIX_MISTAKE in every libc compile line. > > >> > > >> The FCP process itself is unclear on this point, > > >> I think this should be clarified. > > >> > > >> It is much more clear on post approval: > > >> Changes after acceptance > > >> > > >> FCPs may need revision after they have been moved into the > > >> accepted state. In such cases, the author SHOULD update the > > >> FCP to reflect the final conclusions. > > >> If the changes are major, the FCP SHOULD be withdrawn > > >> and restarted. > > >> > > > > > > Good point Rod. While common sense suggests that trivial changes > during the > > > voting should be allowed for editorial purposes (eg fix grammar > mistakes, > > > table rendering etc), it's better to spell that out so there's no > confusion. > > > > > > diff --git a/fcp-0000.md b/fcp-0000.md > > > index b4fe0f3..c8cc6f7 100644 > > > --- a/fcp-0000.md > > > +++ b/fcp-0000.md > > > @@ -144,7 +144,10 @@ When the discussion of a change has come to a > suitable > > > and acceptable close it > > > SHOULD be updated to the `vote` state. > > > > > > At this time the FreeBSD Core Team will vote on the subject of the > FCP. The > > > -result of vote moves the FCP into the `accepted` or `rejected` state. > > > +result of vote moves the FCP into the `accepted` or `rejected` state. > The > > > +core team MAY make minor edits to the FCP to correct minor mistakes. > Core > > > +MAY return the proposal to the submitter if there are major problems > that > > > +need to be addressed. > > > > This is a Bad Idea, because it relies on common understanding of what is > minor. I was once involved with a standards body that had a procedure for > so-called clerical errors intended to deal with typos, punctuation etc; > this worked just fine until somebody claimed that the omission of the word > ?not? in a particular place was clearly a clerical error. > > And I have read case law that boiled down to the presents vs absence > of a comma in an agreement that had results far beyond "minor". > > Use of words minor and major should be red flags unless both > or explicitly defined, and even then those definitions often > have issues themselves. > I'm not going to define every single word. FCP documents describe process. They are not legal documents, nor should they be. Major and minor have common enough meanings, and the basis of bylaws is that we trust core@. Warner > > > FCPs in the `accepted` state can be updated and corrected. > > > See the "Changes after acceptance" section for more information. > > > > > > Normally I'd submit that as a pull request, but since I know you don't > use > > > github, I thought I'd present it here to see if this answers your > concerns > > > before doing so. > > > > > > Warner > > > _______________________________________________ > > > freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list > > > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable > > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-stable-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > > > > -- > > Bob Bishop > > rb@gid.co.uk > > -- > Rod Grimes > rgrimes@freebsd.org > From owner-freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Wed Oct 24 13:41:56 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fcp@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30436FD9A17; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:41:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [18.222.6.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.soaustin.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D85C48EA61; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:41:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from lonesome.com (unknown [18.188.142.31]) by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3CB622EBA8; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:41:55 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:41:54 +0000 From: Mark Linimon To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Bob Bishop , Brooks Davis , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , Ian Lepore , FreeBSD Net , "Julian H. Stacey" , Michelle Sullivan , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Message-ID: <20181024134153.GC3125@lonesome.com> References: <9257C84A-CA7C-42B9-9AD8-89AE33C96356@gid.co.uk> <201810241219.w9OCJXTd027720@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201810241219.w9OCJXTd027720@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 14:07:21 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Community Proposals List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:41:56 -0000 On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 05:19:33AM -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > And I have read case law that boiled down to the presents vs absence > of a comma If we are now going to evaluate all proposed changes to FreeBSD on the same rigid principles as the US legal system, I'm done. mcl From owner-freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Wed Oct 24 13:54:05 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fcp@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56616FE5C52; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:54:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B6241906FD; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:54:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id w9ODs2i7028343; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 06:54:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id w9ODs1MD028342; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 06:54:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <201810241354.w9ODs1MD028342@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers In-Reply-To: <20181024134153.GC3125@lonesome.com> To: Mark Linimon Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 06:54:01 -0700 (PDT) CC: Bob Bishop , Brooks Davis , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , Ian Lepore , FreeBSD Net , "Julian H. Stacey" , Michelle Sullivan , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 14:07:21 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Community Proposals List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:54:05 -0000 > On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 05:19:33AM -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > > And I have read case law that boiled down to the presents vs absence > > of a comma > > If we are now going to evaluate all proposed changes to FreeBSD on the > same rigid principles as the US legal system, I'm done. I do not think "all" is in scope here, but I do feel should excercise care about procedure. And FYI, the case law above I am pretty sure was not US. I also believe that what is at issue here can be fixed rather easily without ever going down the minor vs major slippery slope by some rather simple changes to order of events and careful steps. Warner came very close, I think he just applied his correct "fix" to 1/2 of the problem. There is the stage where the FCP is before core being voted on, and there is the stage that the FCP has been approved. He only addressed 1 of those, and he did so by allowing core to trivially modify the document during the voting process, and I am actually fine with that idea, its good, it is what should be allowed. I trust core to know what is minor vs major. BUTT it still does not cover the issue of the author/submitter modifying the document while it is in core being reviewed and possibly modified. I have issue with that. It is very hard to vote/formally review on something that is fluid. I have not been asked to trust these people with the trust I give core, so I would like to remove that. We could add that once the document is submitted to core any change to it between submitting and vote by core requires core to be involved, even if it is simply an ack of a change has been made to what was submitted. -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Wed Oct 24 14:10:01 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fcp@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D58F1FEA558; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 14:10:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from land.berklix.org (land.berklix.org [144.76.10.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "land.berklix.org", Issuer "land.berklix.org" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 58C2192ECB; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 14:10:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from mart.js.berklix.net (p2E52CCDC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [46.82.204.220]) (authenticated bits=0) by land.berklix.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w9OE9tuA000977 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 24 Oct 2018 14:09:59 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by mart.js.berklix.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id w9OE9oUt043495; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 16:09:50 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id w9OE9cHH040720; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 16:09:50 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Message-Id: <201810241409.w9OE9cHH040720@fire.js.berklix.net> To: FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , FreeBSD Net , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers From: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: http://berklix.eu BSD Unix Linux Consultants, Munich Germany User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://berklix.eu/free/ X-From: http://www.berklix.eu/~jhs/ In-reply-to: Your message "Wed, 24 Oct 2018 06:54:01 -0700." <201810241354.w9ODs1MD028342@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 16:09:38 +0200 X-BeenThere: freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Community Proposals List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 14:10:02 -0000 "Rodney W. Grimes" wrote: > We could add that once the document is submitted to core > any change to it between submitting and vote by core requires > core to be involved, even if it is simply an ack of a change > has been made to what was submitted. Yes ! Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich. Brexit referendum stole 3,700,000 Brits votes abroad, inc. 700,000 in EU. Campaign lies, criminal funding, economy & pound down. Time for an honest ref. http://exitbrexit.uk https://www.peoples-vote.uk/petition https://eci.ec.europa.eu/002/public/#/initiative From owner-freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Wed Oct 24 14:41:37 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fcp@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4171EFECD4D; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 14:41:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B2471958CD; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 14:41:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id w9OEfVDq028731; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 07:41:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id w9OEfV2B028730; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 07:41:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <201810241441.w9OEfV2B028730@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers In-Reply-To: <201810241409.w9OE9cHH040720@fire.js.berklix.net> To: "Julian H. Stacey" Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 07:41:31 -0700 (PDT) CC: FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , FreeBSD Net , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Community Proposals List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 14:41:37 -0000 > "Rodney W. Grimes" wrote: > > We could add that once the document is submitted to core > > any change to it between submitting and vote by core requires > > core to be involved, even if it is simply an ack of a change > > has been made to what was submitted. > > Yes ! And to expand on that further since core is under a 2 week timeline to complete this process any submitted change acceptable to core resets the 2 week timer, if core rejects the change the timer continues as original. -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Wed Oct 24 14:55:17 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fcp@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E83B4FED73F; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 14:55:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rb@gid.co.uk) Received: from mx0.gid.co.uk (mx0.gid.co.uk [194.32.164.250]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86B0196672; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 14:55:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rb@gid.co.uk) Received: from [194.32.164.27] ([194.32.164.27]) by mx0.gid.co.uk (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id w9OEtD1L009610; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 15:55:13 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from rb@gid.co.uk) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers From: rb@gid.co.uk In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 15:55:13 +0100 Cc: "Rodney W. Grimes" , Brooks Davis , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , Ian Lepore , FreeBSD Net , "Julian H. Stacey" , Michelle Sullivan , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <994430B6-A8BC-4A1F-B15A-41E71DE5D47F@gid.co.uk> References: <20181023233716.GA15106@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <201810240002.w9O02tXg025019@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> <9257C84A-CA7C-42B9-9AD8-89AE33C96356@gid.co.uk> To: Warner Losh X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 15:00:23 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Community Proposals List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 14:55:17 -0000 > On 24 Oct 2018, at 14:39, Warner Losh wrote: >=20 > [stuff trimmed] >=20 >> >> The FCP process itself is unclear on this point, >> >> I think this should be clarified. >> >>=20 >> >> It is much more clear on post approval: >> >> Changes after acceptance >> >>=20 >> >> FCPs may need revision after they have been moved into the >> >> accepted state. In such cases, the author SHOULD update the >> >> FCP to reflect the final conclusions. >> >> If the changes are major, the FCP SHOULD be withdrawn >> >> and restarted. >> >>=20 >> >=20 >> > Good point Rod. While common sense suggests that trivial changes = during the >> > voting should be allowed for editorial purposes (eg fix grammar = mistakes, >> > table rendering etc), it's better to spell that out so there's no = confusion. >> >=20 >> > diff --git a/fcp-0000.md b/fcp-0000.md >> > index b4fe0f3..c8cc6f7 100644 >> > --- a/fcp-0000.md >> > +++ b/fcp-0000.md >> > @@ -144,7 +144,10 @@ When the discussion of a change has come to a = suitable >> > and acceptable close it >> > SHOULD be updated to the `vote` state. >> >=20 >> > At this time the FreeBSD Core Team will vote on the subject of the = FCP. The >> > -result of vote moves the FCP into the `accepted` or `rejected` = state. >> > +result of vote moves the FCP into the `accepted` or `rejected` = state. The >> > +core team MAY make minor edits to the FCP to correct minor = mistakes. Core >> > +MAY return the proposal to the submitter if there are major = problems that >> > +need to be addressed. >>=20 >> This is a Bad Idea, because it relies on common understanding of what = is minor. I was once involved with a standards body that had a procedure = for so-called clerical errors intended to deal with typos, punctuation = etc; this worked just fine until somebody claimed that the omission of = the word =E2=80=9Cnot=E2=80=9D in a particular place was clearly a = clerical error. >=20 > This documents procedure. It's not law. Trying to read it as law is a = mistake: it's written to be brief and descriptive, not through and = prescriptive. And that's on purpose. Axiom 1 of the bylaws is that you = can trust the core team, which is why the power grant is total and = unequivocal: Core is the governing body of the project. If you can't = trust the core team and need anything more, you've already list. And = over the years core's biggest failing isn't some fleet of black = helicopters dispatched to take out critics or other shenanigans. It's = either been not doing enough for the situation (due to too little time = and/or a mistaken impression that they couldn't do anything), or it's = lack of clear communication either between the different 'hats' and core = or between core and the rest of the project. >=20 > Warner=20 No problem with any of that. If the intent is that =E2=80=9Ccore MAY = make unrestricted changes to the FCP and/or MAY return the proposal to = the submitter if there are problems that need to be addressed=E2=80=9D = then say so. -- Bob Bishop t: +44 (0)118 940 1243 rb@gid.co.uk m: +44 (0)783 626 4518 From owner-freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Wed Oct 24 17:51:20 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fcp@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC871FFEE93; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 17:51:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from danfe@freebsd.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [96.47.72.132]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "freefall.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8377F71306; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 17:51:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from danfe@freebsd.org) Received: by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 1033) id 554969405; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 17:51:20 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 17:51:20 +0000 From: Alexey Dokuchaev To: Warner Losh Cc: Ian Lepore , michelle@sorbs.net, FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , FreeBSD Net , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Message-ID: <20181024175120.GA9818@FreeBSD.org> References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <55a44e73-60ab-e386-360a-b0a0198a0e71@zyxst.net> <8878cac1-d5d2-4224-6aa5-85516db23c14@sorbs.net> <1538673997.14264.9.camel@freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) X-BeenThere: freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Community Proposals List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 17:51:21 -0000 On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 11:38:46AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > ... > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc, > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today. Warner, I had mentioned [*] that I'm using sf(4), would you please be more careful when collecting "NICs still in use" data? We really do need a wiki page and carefully relect all the feedback we've received so far and also upcoming one. ./danfe [*] Message-ID: <20181004084411.GA50348@FreeBSD.org> From owner-freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Wed Oct 24 18:12:26 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fcp@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67662FFFFB4; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 18:12:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: from gold.funkthat.com (gate2.funkthat.com [208.87.223.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "gate2.funkthat.com", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E3BE672FAA; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 18:12:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: from gold.funkthat.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gold.funkthat.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w9OICHVN021010 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 24 Oct 2018 11:12:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmg@gold.funkthat.com) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by gold.funkthat.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id w9OICHe2021009; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 11:12:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmg) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 11:12:17 -0700 From: John-Mark Gurney To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , FreeBSD Net , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Message-ID: <20181024181217.GC75530@funkthat.com> Mail-Followup-To: "Rodney W. Grimes" , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , FreeBSD Net , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org References: <9257C84A-CA7C-42B9-9AD8-89AE33C96356@gid.co.uk> <201810241219.w9OCJXTd027720@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201810241219.w9OCJXTd027720@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 11.0-RELEASE-p7 amd64 X-PGP-Fingerprint: D87A 235F FB71 1F3F 55B7 ED9B D5FF 5A51 C0AC 3D65 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: https://www.funkthat.com/ X-Resume: https://www.funkthat.com/~jmg/resume.html X-TipJar: bitcoin:13Qmb6AeTgQecazTWph4XasEsP7nGRbAPE X-to-the-FBI-CIA-and-NSA: HI! HOW YA DOIN? can i haz chizburger? User-Agent: Mutt/1.6.1 (2016-04-27) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (gold.funkthat.com [127.0.0.1]); Wed, 24 Oct 2018 11:12:18 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Community Proposals List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 18:12:26 -0000 Rodney W. Grimes wrote this message on Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 05:19 -0700: > And I have read case law that boiled down to the presents vs absence > of a comma in an agreement that had results far beyond "minor". For those currious about this case: https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2017/03/16/lack-oxford-comma-costs-maine-company-millions-overtime-dispute/BIxK837fA2C06qavQMDs5J/story.html -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 415 225 5579 "All that I will do, has been done, All that I have, has not." From owner-freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Wed Oct 24 15:48:59 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fcp@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF2E7FF1AC0; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 15:48:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brooks@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net) Received: from spindle.one-eyed-alien.net (spindle.one-eyed-alien.net [199.48.129.229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 74BD66A814; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 15:48:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brooks@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net) Received: by spindle.one-eyed-alien.net (Postfix, from userid 3001) id CAEC53C475F; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 15:48:57 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 15:48:57 +0000 From: Brooks Davis To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Mark Linimon , Bob Bishop , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , Ian Lepore , FreeBSD Net , "Julian H. Stacey" , Michelle Sullivan , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Message-ID: <20181024154857.GB15429@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> References: <20181024134153.GC3125@lonesome.com> <201810241354.w9ODs1MD028342@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="GID0FwUMdk1T2AWN" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201810241354.w9ODs1MD028342@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 19:03:43 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Community Proposals List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 15:49:00 -0000 --GID0FwUMdk1T2AWN Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 06:54:01AM -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 05:19:33AM -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > > > And I have read case law that boiled down to the presents vs absence > > > of a comma > >=20 > > If we are now going to evaluate all proposed changes to FreeBSD on the > > same rigid principles as the US legal system, I'm done. >=20 > I do not think "all" is in scope here, > but I do feel should excercise care about procedure. > And FYI, the case law above I am pretty sure was not US. >=20 > I also believe that what is at issue here can be fixed > rather easily without ever going down the minor vs major > slippery slope by some rather simple changes to order > of events and careful steps. >=20 > Warner came very close, I think he just applied his correct > "fix" to 1/2 of the problem. >=20 > There is the stage where the FCP is before core being voted > on, and there is the stage that the FCP has been approved. > He only addressed 1 of those, and he did so by allowing core > to trivially modify the document during the voting process, > and I am actually fine with that idea, its good, it is what > should be allowed. I trust core to know what is minor vs > major. >=20 > BUTT it still does not cover the issue of the author/submitter > modifying the document while it is in core being reviewed and > possibly modified. I have issue with that. It is very hard > to vote/formally review on something that is fluid. > I have not been asked to trust these people with the trust I > give core, so I would like to remove that. There are technical measures in place that do much of this already. Right now, authors can't directly change the documents (unless they are repo admins which means core and former core members in practice). We require that pull requests be reviewed before they are merged and random people don't have commit access. We could make the restriction to core members or core members and fcp-editors explicit if that was desirable. > We could add that once the document is submitted to core > any change to it between submitting and vote by core requires > core to be involved, even if it is simply an ack of a change > has been made to what was submitted. I agree. We'll need to think on how best to do this. -- Brooks --GID0FwUMdk1T2AWN Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJb0JRpAAoJEKzQXbSebgfAv6EH/j7y74E12k7JrbntothAjhfl 1u1bRpib5ZoIE5nCeCS6l+ZqHvkJIxvmbqm9ksBsLG36GFbUOBHMnvY43KCHq87r NOQ4LoncmDljiDnakMALcf7qyMiWLjHBxod0AtUrBE+Wof9qB/kiJ3MWmt6ou11W nuXhhiJsxR4bTAFoBlP+91X0BgcNomUyQLX537hEzgw4jI7lfp3liw00T9enWAV+ NAU9smJhXuUPca2hAcDtcPkpQG3tVweQKLGSWrr9HDxb2FQUNZVHzwccEJwg1sc3 LgUvjJfrOArCUvaZLzopgbMBuZbx/vnJSEqQySnRihEk00JYR42mp7iqNv22DRc= =Pfsi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --GID0FwUMdk1T2AWN-- From owner-freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Wed Oct 24 19:04:29 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fcp@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F34811036C72; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 19:04:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A0E4756A8; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 19:04:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id w9OJ4Qcb030115; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:04:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id w9OJ4Q1Z030114; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:04:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <201810241904.w9OJ4Q1Z030114@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers In-Reply-To: <20181024181217.GC75530@funkthat.com> To: John-Mark Gurney Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:04:26 -0700 (PDT) CC: FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , FreeBSD Net , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Community Proposals List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 19:04:29 -0000 > Rodney W. Grimes wrote this message on Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 05:19 -0700: > > And I have read case law that boiled down to the presents vs absence > > of a comma in an agreement that had results far beyond "minor". > > For those currious about this case: > https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2017/03/16/lack-oxford-comma-costs-maine-company-millions-overtime-dispute/BIxK837fA2C06qavQMDs5J/story.html For those more interested: https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca1/16-1901/16-1901-2017-03-13.html And I was wrong, it is a US case, though I am sure there is other similiar case law on other books. -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org