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Subject: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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From: Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net>
To: "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
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Subject: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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Before I begin, I want to be clear that everything here is in the realm
of speculative, long-term discussion. My goal is to start a
conversation, not to propose anything concrete right now.
I've talked at several conferences about the possibility of bringing the
Rust programming language into the base system, with the intent of
making it a viable implementation language for parts of the base system.
I believe the potential security and stability benefits of doing this
are *substantial*. This would obviously be a serious undertaking, but I
think the benefits are worth the cost. For the rest of this mail, I'll
outline my position and present the important facts that support it.
I of course welcome any discussion, criticism, or input.
=3D Why Rust? =3D
Rust is a true systems programming language that incorporates results
from programming language research that took place in the late 90's and
2000's, and can be viewed as a culmination of this work. (Specifically,
it draws on work on region types as well as substructural types, but
that's its own survey article).
This manifests most clearly in Rust's lifetime type system, which is
able to perform quite sophisticated reasoning about memory allocation
and ownership. Rust programs do not require you to explicitly manage
memory, but neither do they use garbage collection. Memory management
is automatically tracked by the lifetime types and allocations/frees are
added during compilation. Moreover, threaded programs are able to use
the same type system features to track ownership. This effectively
prevents a large class of memory- and concurrency-related errors *at the
type system level*, resulting in dramatically safer programs. Rust
provides an "unsafe" language facility for accomplishing low-level
tasks, so you're not prevented from getting things done; however, almost
all programs can be implemented without relying on unsafe, and doing so
eliminates what has probably been the two worst classes of bugs in the
history of computing.
Because this is done at the type system level, it has no cost at
runtime. This theme of "zero-cost abstractions" runs throughout the
language, which makes it suitable as a replacement for C in the long
term. It also incorporates features befitting a modern programming
language such as parameterized types (aka generics), pattern-matching,
and trait-based polymorphism. Finally, it can interface with C/C++
binaries and libraries relatively easily, making it a suitable systems
implementation language.
Because of these benefits, several projects (Mozilla and Tor) have begun
to reimplement their systems using Rust. Additionally, there is a
master's thesis about writing FreeBSD device drivers using Rust out
there somewhere (forgive me for not chasing it down).
A secondary benefit is that Rust's packaging system, cargo, is built
around a more modern concept of modularity. This is in line with
FreeBSD's goals of modularizing the base system and reducing redundancy.
=3D Downsides =3D
There are a couple of downsides, which I'll outline briefly, and provide
some counterargumentation for them.
* It's a big component
Adding the entire Rust platform would add more to the buildworld time,
which is already quite long due to LLVM. OTOH, LLVM itself is a big
chunk of the rust build time, and we already build that as part of the
base system now. Moreover, it stands to reason that the compiler would
end up being the majority of an open-source operating system's build
time, with second place being the kernel itself. Compilers are an
active area of research with no signs of slowing down, and more hardware
platforms means more backends, which means the compiler ends up growing
over time, while most of the rest of the system doesn't.
* The language is still evolving
While this is true, the language has gotten *way* more mature in the
past year and a half, and I think it's ready to hold up major codebases
and production use, or at the very least it will be by the time we'd be
seriously looking at bringing it in.
* Rust binaries are large
This issue can be avoided with the proper use of build flags. The
default settings use static linking for everything, and bring in the
entire runtime library (which isn't necessary in most cases). See this
article:
https://lifthrasiir.github.io/rustlog/why-is-a-rust-executable-large.html=
=2E
With LTO, the size can be cut down to that of a C++ binary, and with
dynamic linking, the executable size is comparable to a C program. If
we were seriously using rust, we would probably change the default flags
to use dynamic linking/LTO by default, in fact.
=3D Alternatives =3D
There have been several alternatives that come up when I mention this.
I'll discuss the two big ones: go and C++
=3D=3D C++ =3D=3D
C++ is already in the base system, of course. It could be brought into
the kernel with some effort and restrictions. The biggest argument for
Rust over C++ in my view is that Rust is a much simpler, cleaner
language. C++ at this point is bewilderingly complex as a language, and
has so many bells and whistles that it almost requires an effort to
decide which subset of the language will be used. This also tends to
slow down efforts to expand the language over time.
Rust by comparison is much leaner. Its lifetime type system can be
intimidating, but the benefits are well worth getting used to it. To
sum it up, C++ certainly isn't going anywhere, but I think Rust has a
great deal more vitality as a language.
=3D=3D Go =3D=3D
Go is not really a "systems language" in the sense that C or Rust are.
It isn't a replacement for C so much as a replacement for python.
What's more, it is almost universally disliked by people with a
background in programming languages (I am one of those). There's a
couple of reasons for this. First, it omits a number of features that
modern languages *really* should include, parameterized types (generics)
being one of the most glaring. Beyond that, it completely ignores
anything produced by modern PL research (unlike Rust, which benefits
from that work). Second, one of its main design parameters was "it
should compile fast". This as a design constraint basically guarantees
that you can't do anything interesting in compilation, which rules out
both advanced type systems as well as serious optimization.
Unlike Rust, which offers substantial security and stability benefits
through its type system, Go would do little more than just change the
syntax of a bunch of code. Moreover, it's likely that there would be
performance consequences, given the design constraint of fast compilation=
=2E
=3D Summary =3D
Rust is a modern systems language with substantial benefits, and is
well-poised to become the heir apparent to C as the dominant systems
language going into the future. For this reason, I think we should
seriously consider it as a language for the base system at some point in
the future, when the time is right and after sufficient exploration and
experimentation.
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From: Alan Somers <asomers@freebsd.org>
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 23:03:08 -0700
Message-ID: <CAOtMX2g64pAXPbvwXCY14BOz=H4qE9wqV8K8D7kPmWK=3vFC0Q@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
To: Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net>
Cc: "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
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On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 10:38 PM Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net> wrote:
>
> Before I begin, I want to be clear that everything here is in the realm
> of speculative, long-term discussion. My goal is to start a
> conversation, not to propose anything concrete right now.
>
>
>
> I've talked at several conferences about the possibility of bringing the
> Rust programming language into the base system, with the intent of
> making it a viable implementation language for parts of the base system.
> I believe the potential security and stability benefits of doing this
> are *substantial*. This would obviously be a serious undertaking, but I
> think the benefits are worth the cost. For the rest of this mail, I'll
> outline my position and present the important facts that support it.
>
> I of course welcome any discussion, criticism, or input.
>
> = Why Rust? =
>
> Rust is a true systems programming language that incorporates results
> from programming language research that took place in the late 90's and
> 2000's, and can be viewed as a culmination of this work. (Specifically,
> it draws on work on region types as well as substructural types, but
> that's its own survey article).
>
> This manifests most clearly in Rust's lifetime type system, which is
> able to perform quite sophisticated reasoning about memory allocation
> and ownership. Rust programs do not require you to explicitly manage
> memory, but neither do they use garbage collection. Memory management
> is automatically tracked by the lifetime types and allocations/frees are
> added during compilation. Moreover, threaded programs are able to use
> the same type system features to track ownership. This effectively
> prevents a large class of memory- and concurrency-related errors *at the
> type system level*, resulting in dramatically safer programs. Rust
> provides an "unsafe" language facility for accomplishing low-level
> tasks, so you're not prevented from getting things done; however, almost
> all programs can be implemented without relying on unsafe, and doing so
> eliminates what has probably been the two worst classes of bugs in the
> history of computing.
>
> Because this is done at the type system level, it has no cost at
> runtime. This theme of "zero-cost abstractions" runs throughout the
> language, which makes it suitable as a replacement for C in the long
> term. It also incorporates features befitting a modern programming
> language such as parameterized types (aka generics), pattern-matching,
> and trait-based polymorphism. Finally, it can interface with C/C++
> binaries and libraries relatively easily, making it a suitable systems
> implementation language.
>
> Because of these benefits, several projects (Mozilla and Tor) have begun
> to reimplement their systems using Rust. Additionally, there is a
> master's thesis about writing FreeBSD device drivers using Rust out
> there somewhere (forgive me for not chasing it down).
I would be interested to read that, if you can find the link.
>
> A secondary benefit is that Rust's packaging system, cargo, is built
> around a more modern concept of modularity. This is in line with
> FreeBSD's goals of modularizing the base system and reducing redundancy.
>
> = Downsides =
>
> There are a couple of downsides, which I'll outline briefly, and provide
> some counterargumentation for them.
>
> * It's a big component
>
> Adding the entire Rust platform would add more to the buildworld time,
> which is already quite long due to LLVM. OTOH, LLVM itself is a big
> chunk of the rust build time, and we already build that as part of the
> base system now. Moreover, it stands to reason that the compiler would
> end up being the majority of an open-source operating system's build
> time, with second place being the kernel itself. Compilers are an
> active area of research with no signs of slowing down, and more hardware
> platforms means more backends, which means the compiler ends up growing
> over time, while most of the rest of the system doesn't.
>
> * The language is still evolving
>
> While this is true, the language has gotten *way* more mature in the
> past year and a half, and I think it's ready to hold up major codebases
> and production use, or at the very least it will be by the time we'd be
> seriously looking at bringing it in.
>
> * Rust binaries are large
>
> This issue can be avoided with the proper use of build flags. The
> default settings use static linking for everything, and bring in the
> entire runtime library (which isn't necessary in most cases). See this
> article:
> https://lifthrasiir.github.io/rustlog/why-is-a-rust-executable-large.html.
> With LTO, the size can be cut down to that of a C++ binary, and with
> dynamic linking, the executable size is comparable to a C program. If
> we were seriously using rust, we would probably change the default flags
> to use dynamic linking/LTO by default, in fact.
Another downside: Rust doesn't support all FreeBSD architectures.
Right now, on FreeBSD it only runs on i386, amd64, and aarch64. On
other OSes it supports additional architectures, though. The biggest
requirement for porting Rust to a new architecture is LLVM support.
So we can't use Rust for almost anything in the base system until all
architectures are on LLVM.
>
>
> = Alternatives =
>
> There have been several alternatives that come up when I mention this.
> I'll discuss the two big ones: go and C++
>
> == C++ ==
>
> C++ is already in the base system, of course. It could be brought into
> the kernel with some effort and restrictions. The biggest argument for
> Rust over C++ in my view is that Rust is a much simpler, cleaner
> language. C++ at this point is bewilderingly complex as a language, and
> has so many bells and whistles that it almost requires an effort to
> decide which subset of the language will be used. This also tends to
> slow down efforts to expand the language over time.
>
> Rust by comparison is much leaner. Its lifetime type system can be
> intimidating, but the benefits are well worth getting used to it. To
> sum it up, C++ certainly isn't going anywhere, but I think Rust has a
> great deal more vitality as a language.
Yeah. C++ has none of Rust's safety features. For OS work, it has
few advantages over C.
>
> == Go ==
>
> Go is not really a "systems language" in the sense that C or Rust are.
> It isn't a replacement for C so much as a replacement for python.
>
> What's more, it is almost universally disliked by people with a
> background in programming languages (I am one of those). There's a
> couple of reasons for this. First, it omits a number of features that
> modern languages *really* should include, parameterized types (generics)
> being one of the most glaring. Beyond that, it completely ignores
> anything produced by modern PL research (unlike Rust, which benefits
> from that work). Second, one of its main design parameters was "it
> should compile fast". This as a design constraint basically guarantees
> that you can't do anything interesting in compilation, which rules out
> both advanced type systems as well as serious optimization.
>
> Unlike Rust, which offers substantial security and stability benefits
> through its type system, Go would do little more than just change the
> syntax of a bunch of code. Moreover, it's likely that there would be
> performance consequences, given the design constraint of fast compilation.
I think there's a common misconception that Go and Rust are similar
just because they were invented at about the same time and they share
some superficial syntactial similarities. But Go is much less
suitable for an OS. It's a memory-managed language, like Java.
Remember when Java was the hot new thing, and people predicted that
OSes would be written entirely in Java, and microprocessors would be
redesigned to execute JVM bytecode directly? It never happened,
because Java just isn't suitable for low-level work. Neither is Go.
Rust is.
>
> = Summary =
>
> Rust is a modern systems language with substantial benefits, and is
> well-poised to become the heir apparent to C as the dominant systems
> language going into the future. For this reason, I think we should
> seriously consider it as a language for the base system at some point in
> the future, when the time is right and after sufficient exploration and
> experimentation.
+100. Rust is definitely the best systems programming language since
C. It's better than C++. It's already being used in experimental
operating systems like RedoxOS, and I think it's going to become the
standard for most innovative OS work soon. FreeBSD should adopt it;
the only question is when. And the answer, I think, is after all
architectures are built with LLVM. There will be some problems to
work out, of course, but it will be worth it.
-Alan
P.S. I was writing some Rust when I got this email
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From: Conrad Meyer <cem@freebsd.org>
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 22:56:11 -0800
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
To: Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net>
Cc: "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
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Rust has many of the exact same problems C++ has. Sure, it avoids a
few classes of issue. But it doesn't fix the classic C++ problems of
extremely slow build times (if you think C++ is bad, Rust is worse)
and having a kitchen sink of language features that make Rust and C++
code difficult to grok.
It may be a suitable replacement for C++; it is not a suitable
replacement for C. And outside of a few components (Clang and devd),
most of the base system does not use C++.
Adding more LLVM build time to the base system is fairly objectionable
even if Rust was magical in all other aspects. Too much of the build
is LLVM today.
I don't think this is a viable long term plan even if Rust was ported
to all of our platforms (and I don't see that happening, either).
Best,
Conrad
On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 9:39 PM Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net> wrote:
>
> Before I begin, I want to be clear that everything here is in the realm
> of speculative, long-term discussion. My goal is to start a
> conversation, not to propose anything concrete right now.
>
>
>
> I've talked at several conferences about the possibility of bringing the
> Rust programming language into the base system, with the intent of
> making it a viable implementation language for parts of the base system.
> I believe the potential security and stability benefits of doing this
> are *substantial*. This would obviously be a serious undertaking, but I
> think the benefits are worth the cost. For the rest of this mail, I'll
> outline my position and present the important facts that support it.
>
> I of course welcome any discussion, criticism, or input.
>
> = Why Rust? =
>
> Rust is a true systems programming language that incorporates results
> from programming language research that took place in the late 90's and
> 2000's, and can be viewed as a culmination of this work. (Specifically,
> it draws on work on region types as well as substructural types, but
> that's its own survey article).
>
> This manifests most clearly in Rust's lifetime type system, which is
> able to perform quite sophisticated reasoning about memory allocation
> and ownership. Rust programs do not require you to explicitly manage
> memory, but neither do they use garbage collection. Memory management
> is automatically tracked by the lifetime types and allocations/frees are
> added during compilation. Moreover, threaded programs are able to use
> the same type system features to track ownership. This effectively
> prevents a large class of memory- and concurrency-related errors *at the
> type system level*, resulting in dramatically safer programs. Rust
> provides an "unsafe" language facility for accomplishing low-level
> tasks, so you're not prevented from getting things done; however, almost
> all programs can be implemented without relying on unsafe, and doing so
> eliminates what has probably been the two worst classes of bugs in the
> history of computing.
>
> Because this is done at the type system level, it has no cost at
> runtime. This theme of "zero-cost abstractions" runs throughout the
> language, which makes it suitable as a replacement for C in the long
> term. It also incorporates features befitting a modern programming
> language such as parameterized types (aka generics), pattern-matching,
> and trait-based polymorphism. Finally, it can interface with C/C++
> binaries and libraries relatively easily, making it a suitable systems
> implementation language.
>
> Because of these benefits, several projects (Mozilla and Tor) have begun
> to reimplement their systems using Rust. Additionally, there is a
> master's thesis about writing FreeBSD device drivers using Rust out
> there somewhere (forgive me for not chasing it down).
>
> A secondary benefit is that Rust's packaging system, cargo, is built
> around a more modern concept of modularity. This is in line with
> FreeBSD's goals of modularizing the base system and reducing redundancy.
>
> = Downsides =
>
> There are a couple of downsides, which I'll outline briefly, and provide
> some counterargumentation for them.
>
> * It's a big component
>
> Adding the entire Rust platform would add more to the buildworld time,
> which is already quite long due to LLVM. OTOH, LLVM itself is a big
> chunk of the rust build time, and we already build that as part of the
> base system now. Moreover, it stands to reason that the compiler would
> end up being the majority of an open-source operating system's build
> time, with second place being the kernel itself. Compilers are an
> active area of research with no signs of slowing down, and more hardware
> platforms means more backends, which means the compiler ends up growing
> over time, while most of the rest of the system doesn't.
>
> * The language is still evolving
>
> While this is true, the language has gotten *way* more mature in the
> past year and a half, and I think it's ready to hold up major codebases
> and production use, or at the very least it will be by the time we'd be
> seriously looking at bringing it in.
>
> * Rust binaries are large
>
> This issue can be avoided with the proper use of build flags. The
> default settings use static linking for everything, and bring in the
> entire runtime library (which isn't necessary in most cases). See this
> article:
> https://lifthrasiir.github.io/rustlog/why-is-a-rust-executable-large.html.
> With LTO, the size can be cut down to that of a C++ binary, and with
> dynamic linking, the executable size is comparable to a C program. If
> we were seriously using rust, we would probably change the default flags
> to use dynamic linking/LTO by default, in fact.
>
>
> = Alternatives =
>
> There have been several alternatives that come up when I mention this.
> I'll discuss the two big ones: go and C++
>
> == C++ ==
>
> C++ is already in the base system, of course. It could be brought into
> the kernel with some effort and restrictions. The biggest argument for
> Rust over C++ in my view is that Rust is a much simpler, cleaner
> language. C++ at this point is bewilderingly complex as a language, and
> has so many bells and whistles that it almost requires an effort to
> decide which subset of the language will be used. This also tends to
> slow down efforts to expand the language over time.
>
> Rust by comparison is much leaner. Its lifetime type system can be
> intimidating, but the benefits are well worth getting used to it. To
> sum it up, C++ certainly isn't going anywhere, but I think Rust has a
> great deal more vitality as a language.
>
> == Go ==
>
> Go is not really a "systems language" in the sense that C or Rust are.
> It isn't a replacement for C so much as a replacement for python.
>
> What's more, it is almost universally disliked by people with a
> background in programming languages (I am one of those). There's a
> couple of reasons for this. First, it omits a number of features that
> modern languages *really* should include, parameterized types (generics)
> being one of the most glaring. Beyond that, it completely ignores
> anything produced by modern PL research (unlike Rust, which benefits
> from that work). Second, one of its main design parameters was "it
> should compile fast". This as a design constraint basically guarantees
> that you can't do anything interesting in compilation, which rules out
> both advanced type systems as well as serious optimization.
>
> Unlike Rust, which offers substantial security and stability benefits
> through its type system, Go would do little more than just change the
> syntax of a bunch of code. Moreover, it's likely that there would be
> performance consequences, given the design constraint of fast compilation.
>
> = Summary =
>
> Rust is a modern systems language with substantial benefits, and is
> well-poised to become the heir apparent to C as the dominant systems
> language going into the future. For this reason, I think we should
> seriously consider it as a language for the base system at some point in
> the future, when the time is right and after sufficient exploration and
> experimentation.
>
From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mon Dec 31 07:19:34 2018
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From: Gleb Popov <arrowd@freebsd.org>
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 10:11:09 +0300
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
To: Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net>
Cc: "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
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On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 8:38 AM Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net> wrote:
> Before I begin, I want to be clear that everything here is in the realm
> of speculative, long-term discussion. My goal is to start a
> conversation, not to propose anything concrete right now.
>
>
>
> I've talked at several conferences about the possibility of bringing the
> Rust programming language into the base system, with the intent of
> making it a viable implementation language for parts of the base system.
> I believe the potential security and stability benefits of doing this
> are *substantial*. This would obviously be a serious undertaking, but I
> think the benefits are worth the cost. For the rest of this mail, I'll
> outline my position and present the important facts that support it.
>
> I of course welcome any discussion, criticism, or input.
>
> = Why Rust? =
>
> Rust is a true systems programming language that incorporates results
> from programming language research that took place in the late 90's and
> 2000's, and can be viewed as a culmination of this work. (Specifically,
> it draws on work on region types as well as substructural types, but
> that's its own survey article).
>
> This manifests most clearly in Rust's lifetime type system, which is
> able to perform quite sophisticated reasoning about memory allocation
> and ownership. Rust programs do not require you to explicitly manage
> memory, but neither do they use garbage collection. Memory management
> is automatically tracked by the lifetime types and allocations/frees are
> added during compilation. Moreover, threaded programs are able to use
> the same type system features to track ownership. This effectively
> prevents a large class of memory- and concurrency-related errors *at the
> type system level*, resulting in dramatically safer programs. Rust
> provides an "unsafe" language facility for accomplishing low-level
> tasks, so you're not prevented from getting things done; however, almost
> all programs can be implemented without relying on unsafe, and doing so
> eliminates what has probably been the two worst classes of bugs in the
> history of computing.
>
If we are striving for safety through type system, I'd jump straight to
Haskell. And let the bikeshedding begin.
> Because this is done at the type system level, it has no cost at
> runtime. This theme of "zero-cost abstractions" runs throughout the
> language, which makes it suitable as a replacement for C in the long
> term. It also incorporates features befitting a modern programming
> language such as parameterized types (aka generics), pattern-matching,
> and trait-based polymorphism. Finally, it can interface with C/C++
> binaries and libraries relatively easily, making it a suitable systems
> implementation language.
>
> Because of these benefits, several projects (Mozilla and Tor) have begun
> to reimplement their systems using Rust. Additionally, there is a
> master's thesis about writing FreeBSD device drivers using Rust out
> there somewhere (forgive me for not chasing it down).
>
> A secondary benefit is that Rust's packaging system, cargo, is built
> around a more modern concept of modularity. This is in line with
> FreeBSD's goals of modularizing the base system and reducing redundancy.
>
> = Downsides =
>
> There are a couple of downsides, which I'll outline briefly, and provide
> some counterargumentation for them.
>
> * It's a big component
>
> Adding the entire Rust platform would add more to the buildworld time,
> which is already quite long due to LLVM. OTOH, LLVM itself is a big
> chunk of the rust build time, and we already build that as part of the
> base system now. Moreover, it stands to reason that the compiler would
> end up being the majority of an open-source operating system's build
> time, with second place being the kernel itself. Compilers are an
> active area of research with no signs of slowing down, and more hardware
> platforms means more backends, which means the compiler ends up growing
> over time, while most of the rest of the system doesn't.
>
> * The language is still evolving
>
> While this is true, the language has gotten *way* more mature in the
> past year and a half, and I think it's ready to hold up major codebases
> and production use, or at the very least it will be by the time we'd be
> seriously looking at bringing it in.
>
> * Rust binaries are large
>
> This issue can be avoided with the proper use of build flags. The
> default settings use static linking for everything, and bring in the
> entire runtime library (which isn't necessary in most cases). See this
> article:
> https://lifthrasiir.github.io/rustlog/why-is-a-rust-executable-large.html.
> With LTO, the size can be cut down to that of a C++ binary, and with
> dynamic linking, the executable size is comparable to a C program. If
> we were seriously using rust, we would probably change the default flags
> to use dynamic linking/LTO by default, in fact.
>
>
> = Alternatives =
>
> There have been several alternatives that come up when I mention this.
> I'll discuss the two big ones: go and C++
>
> == C++ ==
>
> C++ is already in the base system, of course. It could be brought into
> the kernel with some effort and restrictions. The biggest argument for
> Rust over C++ in my view is that Rust is a much simpler, cleaner
> language. C++ at this point is bewilderingly complex as a language, and
> has so many bells and whistles that it almost requires an effort to
> decide which subset of the language will be used. This also tends to
> slow down efforts to expand the language over time.
>
> Rust by comparison is much leaner. Its lifetime type system can be
> intimidating, but the benefits are well worth getting used to it. To
> sum it up, C++ certainly isn't going anywhere, but I think Rust has a
> great deal more vitality as a language.
>
> == Go ==
>
> Go is not really a "systems language" in the sense that C or Rust are.
> It isn't a replacement for C so much as a replacement for python.
>
> What's more, it is almost universally disliked by people with a
> background in programming languages (I am one of those). There's a
> couple of reasons for this. First, it omits a number of features that
> modern languages *really* should include, parameterized types (generics)
> being one of the most glaring. Beyond that, it completely ignores
> anything produced by modern PL research (unlike Rust, which benefits
> from that work). Second, one of its main design parameters was "it
> should compile fast". This as a design constraint basically guarantees
> that you can't do anything interesting in compilation, which rules out
> both advanced type systems as well as serious optimization.
>
> Unlike Rust, which offers substantial security and stability benefits
> through its type system, Go would do little more than just change the
> syntax of a bunch of code. Moreover, it's likely that there would be
> performance consequences, given the design constraint of fast compilation.
>
> = Summary =
>
> Rust is a modern systems language with substantial benefits, and is
> well-poised to become the heir apparent to C as the dominant systems
> language going into the future. For this reason, I think we should
> seriously consider it as a language for the base system at some point in
> the future, when the time is right and after sufficient exploration and
> experimentation.
>
>
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To: Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net>
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" <phk@phk.freebsd.dk>
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--------
In message <ca76e5f7-6e59-bd67-144a-90ad66f0252e@metricspace.net>, Eric Mc=
Corkl
e writes:
>Before I begin, I want to be clear that everything here is in the realm
>of speculative, long-term discussion. My goal is to start a
>conversation, not to propose anything concrete right now.
Tl;Dr: Forget all about it.
The historical precedent is cvssup(1) which was written in Modula-3.
Cvsup was a very complex piece of machinery, and it was indisputably
incredibly important to the projects productivity, and we talked again and
again about including it in the tree.
The arguments were roughly (from memory:)
1. It would make porting to new platforms much harder. (M3 had its
own threading implementation.)
2. Nobody but jdp@ knew or used M3, and he only used it for cvsup,
because he wanted to try out the language in the first place.
3. It would increas buildworld time significantly.
4. Maintaining the M3 compiler in the tree would be a bother.
5. The only advantage over having it as a port were "It would be
(more) convenient"
We never imported cvsup and it was not even a close call.
I think we can generalize and say that unless we are talking about
very big, complex and inescapable body of code, any potential benefits
will not outweigh the very concrete disadvantages.
So exactly which "base system components" are we talking about ?
The largest non-contrib program we maintain in the tree, is ppp(8)
and that is only 43KLOC.
That is not enough code to warrant a refactoring into a different
programming language, in particular not when usage is so low that
nobody has even bothered to merge the multi-link support from
net/mpd5 in the last 10 years.
So the only piece of code I can imagine which would ever come close
to qualifying, would be if somebody starts writing BSystemD(8)
from scratch.
And I'm 100% convinced that people will want that optional and firmly
segregated in a port for at least the first a decade.
And as far as I know, we *are* trying to make base more modular, and
migrate it to pkgbase to make the attachment of/to ports more
seamless, right?
Poul-Henning
-- =
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe =
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence=
.
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<39272.1546241776@critter.freebsd.dk>
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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Hello!
That sounds nice. Is there any requirements or wiki page for BSystemD implementation?
---
With best regards, Igor Chudov.
Saratov Free Software Center
Work phone: +7 8452 98-78-18
Work (mobile) phone: +7 917 208-78-18
Personal (mobile) phone: +7 937 266-51-34
31.12.2018, 10:40, "Poul-Henning Kamp" <phk@phk.freebsd.dk>:
> So the only piece of code I can imagine which would ever come close
> to qualifying, would be if somebody starts writing BSystemD(8)
> from scratch.
>
> And I'm 100% convinced that people will want that optional and firmly
> segregated in a port for at least the first a decade.
>
> And as far as I know, we *are* trying to make base more modular, and
> migrate it to pkgbase to make the attachment of/to ports more
> seamless, right?
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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--------
In message <33602211546243585@iva6-fcf606ab9514.qloud-c.yandex.net>, =3D?u=
tf-8?B?
0JjQs9C+0YDRjCDQp9GD0LTQvtCy?=3D writes:
>That sounds nice. Is there any requirements or wiki page for BSystemD imp=
lementation?
I think that subject is best tackled in an small working group of
interested people, so the "how" question does not get steam-rolled by the
"why" question.
Please don't hi-jack this mail-thread for it.
-- =
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe =
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence=
.
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From: Damjan Jovanovic <damjan.jov@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 11:50:12 +0200
Message-ID: <CAJm2B-kwBpx1V3bsNYZpOOPKB8=zv-OdzBADao2zkS=fFGJgPg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
To: Alan Somers <asomers@freebsd.org>
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On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 8:37 AM Alan Somers <asomers@freebsd.org> wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 10:38 PM Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net>
> wrote:
> >
>
> >
> > == Go ==
> >
> > Go is not really a "systems language" in the sense that C or Rust are.
> > It isn't a replacement for C so much as a replacement for python.
> >
> > What's more, it is almost universally disliked by people with a
> > background in programming languages (I am one of those). There's a
> > couple of reasons for this. First, it omits a number of features that
> > modern languages *really* should include, parameterized types (generics)
> > being one of the most glaring. Beyond that, it completely ignores
> > anything produced by modern PL research (unlike Rust, which benefits
> > from that work). Second, one of its main design parameters was "it
> > should compile fast". This as a design constraint basically guarantees
> > that you can't do anything interesting in compilation, which rules out
> > both advanced type systems as well as serious optimization.
> >
> > Unlike Rust, which offers substantial security and stability benefits
> > through its type system, Go would do little more than just change the
> > syntax of a bunch of code. Moreover, it's likely that there would be
> > performance consequences, given the design constraint of fast
> compilation.
>
> I think there's a common misconception that Go and Rust are similar
> just because they were invented at about the same time and they share
> some superficial syntactial similarities. But Go is much less
> suitable for an OS. It's a memory-managed language, like Java.
> Remember when Java was the hot new thing, and people predicted that
> OSes would be written entirely in Java, and microprocessors would be
> redesigned to execute JVM bytecode directly? It never happened,
> because Java just isn't suitable for low-level work. Neither is Go.
> Rust is.
>
>
ARM chips could (and some did) have the Jazelle DBX extension to run Java
bytecode in hardware. There are Java editions used on SIM cards and Blu-ray
disks, so it certainly has low-level editions. It's Java SE that is heavy:
7 threads and 50 MB RAM for a hello world application, last time I checked.
In this regard, Go is much lighter: 2 threads and 1 MB RAM for a hello
world. Go has unsigned types, structure embedding, excellent
interoperability with C, and the ability to compile into shared libraries
which are loaded and called from C, so it is a lot better for low-level
programming than Java. Having said that, the number of architectures
supported by Go is fairly limited, and languages with automated garbage
collection are unusable for kernel development.
I would like to see more Rust (or a similar language) in systems
development.
Damjan
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Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 11:29:28 +0100
From: Gary Jennejohn <gljennjohn@gmail.com>
To: Alan Somers <asomers@freebsd.org>
Cc: Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net>, "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org"
<freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
Message-ID: <20181231112928.486f40c2@ernst.home>
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On Sun, 30 Dec 2018 23:03:08 -0700
Alan Somers <asomers@freebsd.org> wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 10:38 PM Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net> wrote:
[big snip]
> >
> > Because of these benefits, several projects (Mozilla and Tor) have begun
> > to reimplement their systems using Rust. Additionally, there is a
> > master's thesis about writing FreeBSD device drivers using Rust out
> > there somewhere (forgive me for not chasing it down).
>
> I would be interested to read that, if you can find the link.
>
I did a google search using "writing FreeBSD device drivers using Rust"
and the first hit was a link to the PDF. Here it is:
www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1238890/FULLTEXT01.pdf
[big snip]
--
Gary Jennejohn
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To: "Poul-Henning Kamp" <phk@phk.freebsd.dk>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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On 31 Dec 2018, at 7:36, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> Tl;Dr: Forget all about it.
>
>
> The historical precedent is cvssup(1) which was written in Modula-3.
While we are on the topic, what was the history on how FreeBSD ended up
with perl in the base system?
/bz
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Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 05:42:04 +0000
From: Mark Linimon <linimon@lonesome.com>
To: Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net>
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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Until it runs on every arch we support, it's kind of academic to talk
about it. IMHO.
mcl
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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What about D?
www.dlang.org
ManiaC++
Jan Knepper
> On Dec 30, 2018, at 21:18, Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net> wrote:
>
> Before I begin, I want to be clear that everything here is in the realm
> of speculative, long-term discussion. My goal is to start a
> conversation, not to propose anything concrete right now.
>
>
>
> I've talked at several conferences about the possibility of bringing the
> Rust programming language into the base system, with the intent of
> making it a viable implementation language for parts of the base system.
> I believe the potential security and stability benefits of doing this
> are *substantial*. This would obviously be a serious undertaking, but I
> think the benefits are worth the cost. For the rest of this mail, I'll
> outline my position and present the important facts that support it.
>
> I of course welcome any discussion, criticism, or input.
>
> = Why Rust? =
>
> Rust is a true systems programming language that incorporates results
> from programming language research that took place in the late 90's and
> 2000's, and can be viewed as a culmination of this work. (Specifically,
> it draws on work on region types as well as substructural types, but
> that's its own survey article).
>
> This manifests most clearly in Rust's lifetime type system, which is
> able to perform quite sophisticated reasoning about memory allocation
> and ownership. Rust programs do not require you to explicitly manage
> memory, but neither do they use garbage collection. Memory management
> is automatically tracked by the lifetime types and allocations/frees are
> added during compilation. Moreover, threaded programs are able to use
> the same type system features to track ownership. This effectively
> prevents a large class of memory- and concurrency-related errors *at the
> type system level*, resulting in dramatically safer programs. Rust
> provides an "unsafe" language facility for accomplishing low-level
> tasks, so you're not prevented from getting things done; however, almost
> all programs can be implemented without relying on unsafe, and doing so
> eliminates what has probably been the two worst classes of bugs in the
> history of computing.
>
> Because this is done at the type system level, it has no cost at
> runtime. This theme of "zero-cost abstractions" runs throughout the
> language, which makes it suitable as a replacement for C in the long
> term. It also incorporates features befitting a modern programming
> language such as parameterized types (aka generics), pattern-matching,
> and trait-based polymorphism. Finally, it can interface with C/C++
> binaries and libraries relatively easily, making it a suitable systems
> implementation language.
>
> Because of these benefits, several projects (Mozilla and Tor) have begun
> to reimplement their systems using Rust. Additionally, there is a
> master's thesis about writing FreeBSD device drivers using Rust out
> there somewhere (forgive me for not chasing it down).
>
> A secondary benefit is that Rust's packaging system, cargo, is built
> around a more modern concept of modularity. This is in line with
> FreeBSD's goals of modularizing the base system and reducing redundancy.
>
> = Downsides =
>
> There are a couple of downsides, which I'll outline briefly, and provide
> some counterargumentation for them.
>
> * It's a big component
>
> Adding the entire Rust platform would add more to the buildworld time,
> which is already quite long due to LLVM. OTOH, LLVM itself is a big
> chunk of the rust build time, and we already build that as part of the
> base system now. Moreover, it stands to reason that the compiler would
> end up being the majority of an open-source operating system's build
> time, with second place being the kernel itself. Compilers are an
> active area of research with no signs of slowing down, and more hardware
> platforms means more backends, which means the compiler ends up growing
> over time, while most of the rest of the system doesn't.
>
> * The language is still evolving
>
> While this is true, the language has gotten *way* more mature in the
> past year and a half, and I think it's ready to hold up major codebases
> and production use, or at the very least it will be by the time we'd be
> seriously looking at bringing it in.
>
> * Rust binaries are large
>
> This issue can be avoided with the proper use of build flags. The
> default settings use static linking for everything, and bring in the
> entire runtime library (which isn't necessary in most cases). See this
> article:
> https://lifthrasiir.github.io/rustlog/why-is-a-rust-executable-large.html.
> With LTO, the size can be cut down to that of a C++ binary, and with
> dynamic linking, the executable size is comparable to a C program. If
> we were seriously using rust, we would probably change the default flags
> to use dynamic linking/LTO by default, in fact.
>
>
> = Alternatives =
>
> There have been several alternatives that come up when I mention this.
> I'll discuss the two big ones: go and C++
>
> == C++ ==
>
> C++ is already in the base system, of course. It could be brought into
> the kernel with some effort and restrictions. The biggest argument for
> Rust over C++ in my view is that Rust is a much simpler, cleaner
> language. C++ at this point is bewilderingly complex as a language, and
> has so many bells and whistles that it almost requires an effort to
> decide which subset of the language will be used. This also tends to
> slow down efforts to expand the language over time.
>
> Rust by comparison is much leaner. Its lifetime type system can be
> intimidating, but the benefits are well worth getting used to it. To
> sum it up, C++ certainly isn't going anywhere, but I think Rust has a
> great deal more vitality as a language.
>
> == Go ==
>
> Go is not really a "systems language" in the sense that C or Rust are.
> It isn't a replacement for C so much as a replacement for python.
>
> What's more, it is almost universally disliked by people with a
> background in programming languages (I am one of those). There's a
> couple of reasons for this. First, it omits a number of features that
> modern languages *really* should include, parameterized types (generics)
> being one of the most glaring. Beyond that, it completely ignores
> anything produced by modern PL research (unlike Rust, which benefits
> from that work). Second, one of its main design parameters was "it
> should compile fast". This as a design constraint basically guarantees
> that you can't do anything interesting in compilation, which rules out
> both advanced type systems as well as serious optimization.
>
> Unlike Rust, which offers substantial security and stability benefits
> through its type system, Go would do little more than just change the
> syntax of a bunch of code. Moreover, it's likely that there would be
> performance consequences, given the design constraint of fast compilation.
>
> = Summary =
>
> Rust is a modern systems language with substantial benefits, and is
> well-poised to become the heir apparent to C as the dominant systems
> language going into the future. For this reason, I think we should
> seriously consider it as a language for the base system at some point in
> the future, when the time is right and after sufficient exploration and
> experimentation.
>
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To: Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net>
cc: "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 30 Dec 2018 21:18:33 -0500."
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Comments: In-reply-to Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net>
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On Sun, 30 Dec 2018 21:18:33 -0500 Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net> wrote:
>
> Go is not really a "systems language" in the sense that C or Rust are.
> It isn't a replacement for C so much as a replacement for python.
>
> What's more, it is almost universally disliked by people with a
> background in programming languages (I am one of those). There's a
> couple of reasons for this. First, it omits a number of features that
> modern languages *really* should include, parameterized types (generics)
> being one of the most glaring. Beyond that, it completely ignores
> anything produced by modern PL research (unlike Rust, which benefits
> from that work). Second, one of its main design parameters was "it
> should compile fast". This as a design constraint basically guarantees
> that you can't do anything interesting in compilation, which rules out
> both advanced type systems as well as serious optimization.
>
> Unlike Rust, which offers substantial security and stability benefits
> through its type system, Go would do little more than just change the
> syntax of a bunch of code. Moreover, it's likely that there would be
> performance consequences, given the design constraint of fast compilation
You haven't used Go at all, have you? No one is suggesting Go be
included in the base system but please stop spreading FUD.
While this is not the place to discuss Go, it is perfectly
usable for writing typical "systems" programs. Though I
wouldn't recommend it for writing kernel code.
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To: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" <bzeeb-lists@lists.zabbadoz.net>
cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
In-reply-to: <07050B49-18E6-498A-91C0-3A0125EF5CA2@lists.zabbadoz.net>
From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" <phk@phk.freebsd.dk>
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--------
In message <07050B49-18E6-498A-91C0-3A0125EF5CA2@lists.zabbadoz.net>, "Bjo=
ern A
. Zeeb" writes:
>On 31 Dec 2018, at 7:36, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
>
>> Tl;Dr: Forget all about it.
>>
>>
>> The historical precedent is cvssup(1) which was written in Modula-3.
>
>While we are on the topic, what was the history on how FreeBSD ended up =
>with perl in the base system?
We wanted a scripting language stronger than /bin/sh, but preferably
without the kitchen-sink, guest-bathroom, sewer pipelines and wastewater
treatment plant,
One very desired use-case was to write the installer in a better
language than C, but other interesting ideas were floating
around too. For instance inetd(8) or syslogd(8) could be given a
$script-program as "action" etc.
I can't remember if we had Forth in the boot code back then, but
it was certainly ruled out for this purpose by people who had grown
up on an inferior brand of pocket calculator :-)
We tried to import Tcl first, but that didn't work out, for N-1
values of "work out".
The one thing that worked was the one which made us pick Tcl: It
was very small language designed for exactly that kind of embedding,
so the actual integration into the source tree wasn't too horrible.
Of course the version churn caused by John Ousterhout & Scriptics
trying to become DotCom millionaires gave some heartburn, but it
was mostly manageable.
However, everybody hated Tcl for all sorts of reasons, and since
this was the DotCom years, they hated it most of all because it was
not the "Endl=C3=B6sung for all programming requirements: Perl".
So we ripped out Tcl again and imported Perl, despite significant
misgivings, all if which came to fruition sooner or later.
Interesting, as soon as we had imported perl, all the much talked
about use-cases evaporated, and it never saw much actual use in
the tree.
Lua was brand new back then, and I dont remember if it was even
mentioned, it certainly was not in the running.
Rexx had no FOSS implementation, so that was not a candidate.
Importing bash(1) or ksh(1) was also proposed as a "half-way pregnant"
solution, but licenses were in the way.
-- =
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe =
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence=
.
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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From: Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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On 12/31/18 2:36 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> So exactly which "base system components" are we talking about ?
>=20
> The largest non-contrib program we maintain in the tree, is ppp(8)
> and that is only 43KLOC.
>=20
> That is not enough code to warrant a refactoring into a different
> programming language, in particular not when usage is so low that
> nobody has even bothered to merge the multi-link support from
> net/mpd5 in the last 10 years.
>=20
> So the only piece of code I can imagine which would ever come close
> to qualifying, would be if somebody starts writing BSystemD(8)
> from scratch.
>=20
> And I'm 100% convinced that people will want that optional and firmly
> segregated in a port for at least the first a decade.
>=20
> And as far as I know, we *are* trying to make base more modular, and
> migrate it to pkgbase to make the attachment of/to ports more
> seamless, right?
That's an interesting point. If the modularization effort ends up
providing the ability to replace parts of contrib with certain ports,
then it would be rather straightforward to create rust-based alternatives=
=2E
As for what I'd be keen to rewrite, I'd put security-critical bits like,
say, pam, kerberos, su, and such on the list. I've also kicked around
the idea of trying to get a simple Rust-based EFI boot loader up and
going. All of these would benefit from
WRT kerberos, I did have the base heimdal replaced with MIT kerberos
from ports for a while. This mostly works (and has some benefits), but
unfortunately doesn't seem to be able to support kerberized NFS.
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From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mon Dec 31 14:22:42 2018
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From: Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 14:21:59 +0000
Message-ID: <CADWvR2hazCroS_cKKc88RuXSfdLgpwdtc0S9dGv=0de5QqfYDg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
To: Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net>
Cc: "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
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On Mon, 31 Dec 2018 at 05:42, Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net> wrote:
>
> Before I begin, I want to be clear that everything here is in the realm
> of speculative, long-term discussion. My goal is to start a
> conversation, not to propose anything concrete right now.
Does the generated code size increase or decrease and does the
data-path get longer or shorter with switch from C to Rust with all
the "great features" of Rust? Are there any metrics for these? If a
CPU cache gets trashed repeatedly or data takes massive d-tours that
would be a significant downside, wouldn't it?
--
Igor M.
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From: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 08:02:23 -0700
Message-ID: <CANCZdfrMY73-7vK6F6q-iPdW7EOUP8CPThkyxwOoOWedyMu5Ag@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
To: Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net>
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On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 10:41 PM Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net> wrote:
> Before I begin, I want to be clear that everything here is in the realm
> of speculative, long-term discussion. My goal is to start a
> conversation, not to propose anything concrete right now.
>
Today, this is a losing bid. The cost for rust is high (both in terms of
people and added compile time), it's not well supported on all our
architectures (and its robustness on the ones it does support has only been
tested in limited scenarios), and there's 0 software it enables from day
one. Plus, since it's a fast evolving language, we'll still need the ports
to support those things that use it today since the likelihood of a version
mismatch is high (and supporting 1 version would be a big stretch, multiple
version is right out). So any sane cost / benefit analysis says: way more
cost than benefit, forget about it. We simply don't have the man-power to
maintain a high-cost, zero-benefit component in the tree. Lord knows we
have a lot of non-zero-cost-with-almost-zero-benefit things in the tree
today that we need to get rid of.
In the future, when there are actual replacement things written, or there
are new features written, that will shift the cost / benefit equation. And
the circumstances about what makes up base will also have shifted, if we're
lucky, and we'll be able to have a conversation. We imported perl and tcl
on the speculative notion that people would build great things. That never
really panned out, and they became a high-cost burden to keep modern for
only minor benefit. And version skew in Perl was terrible by the end. Forth
and Lua live in the tree because they have benefit (though Forth will be
departing, most likely by 13, and definitely by 14). They are also small
and easy to update to new versions.
And we can't say, with certainty, that if a bunch of rust things show up
we'll use them in base. We'll have to see what they provide to benefit the
system.
TBH, there's a stronger case for python than rust: there's actual python
scripts in the tree today that we have to install a port to use. And there
the benefit, while not zero, is small and the effort is large compared to
just dragging it in as a port, so it hasn't been done. It's another fast
evolving language that requires multiple versions as well...
So write something that everybody wants, that must be in base, and that
requires rust, and then we can have the conversation...
Warner
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From: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 08:46:07 -0700
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 8:02 AM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 10:41 PM Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Before I begin, I want to be clear that everything here is in the realm
>> of speculative, long-term discussion. My goal is to start a
>> conversation, not to propose anything concrete right now.
>>
>
> Today, this is a losing bid. The cost for rust is high (both in terms of
> people and added compile time), it's not well supported on all our
> architectures (and its robustness on the ones it does support has only been
> tested in limited scenarios), and there's 0 software it enables from day
> one. Plus, since it's a fast evolving language, we'll still need the ports
> to support those things that use it today since the likelihood of a version
> mismatch is high (and supporting 1 version would be a big stretch, multiple
> version is right out). So any sane cost / benefit analysis says: way more
> cost than benefit, forget about it. We simply don't have the man-power to
> maintain a high-cost, zero-benefit component in the tree. Lord knows we
> have a lot of non-zero-cost-with-almost-zero-benefit things in the tree
> today that we need to get rid of.
>
> In the future, when there are actual replacement things written, or there
> are new features written, that will shift the cost / benefit equation. And
> the circumstances about what makes up base will also have shifted, if we're
> lucky, and we'll be able to have a conversation. We imported perl and tcl
> on the speculative notion that people would build great things. That never
> really panned out, and they became a high-cost burden to keep modern for
> only minor benefit. And version skew in Perl was terrible by the end. Forth
> and Lua live in the tree because they have benefit (though Forth will be
> departing, most likely by 13, and definitely by 14). They are also small
> and easy to update to new versions.
>
> And we can't say, with certainty, that if a bunch of rust things show up
> we'll use them in base. We'll have to see what they provide to benefit the
> system.
>
> TBH, there's a stronger case for python than rust: there's actual python
> scripts in the tree today that we have to install a port to use. And there
> the benefit, while not zero, is small and the effort is large compared to
> just dragging it in as a port, so it hasn't been done. It's another fast
> evolving language that requires multiple versions as well...
>
> So write something that everybody wants, that must be in base, and that
> requires rust, and then we can have the conversation...
>
Just re-read this. It sounds a little more negative than I wanted to come
off. I'd only wanted to say today the needle is on 'nope' and I hope people
write enough cool stuff to justify moving the needle off 'nope' :) The last
part of that message seems more muted than I wanted.
Warner
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From: Volker Lendecke <Volker.Lendecke@SerNet.DE>
To: "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 10:56:11PM -0800, Conrad Meyer wrote:
> I don't think this is a viable long term plan even if Rust was ported
> to all of our platforms (and I don't see that happening, either).
Not being involved in FreeBSD but in Samba, I could see a migration of
parts of Samba to Rust if it had a Rust->C translator. I think for
FreeBSD base components similar arguments would apply. You could ship
the C output for the platforms that don't have native Rust.
Unfortunately the llvm C backend was cancelled a while ago.
Volker
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From: Alan Somers <asomers@freebsd.org>
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 09:52:32 -0700
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
To: "Conrad E. Meyer" <cem@freebsd.org>
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On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 12:17 AM Conrad Meyer <cem@freebsd.org> wrote:
>
> Rust has many of the exact same problems C++ has. Sure, it avoids a
> few classes of issue. But it doesn't fix the classic C++ problems of
> extremely slow build times (if you think C++ is bad, Rust is worse)
> and having a kitchen sink of language features that make Rust and C++
> code difficult to grok.
Do you have any data to support the claim of slow build times? I know
it's very hard to do an apples-to-apples comparison of build times
between different languages, but I would be interested to see somebody
try.
>
> It may be a suitable replacement for C++; it is not a suitable
> replacement for C. And outside of a few components (Clang and devd),
> most of the base system does not use C++.
>
> Adding more LLVM build time to the base system is fairly objectionable
> even if Rust was magical in all other aspects. Too much of the build
> is LLVM today.
>
> I don't think this is a viable long term plan even if Rust was ported
> to all of our platforms (and I don't see that happening, either).
>
> Best,
> Conrad
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 9:39 PM Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net> wrote:
> >
> > Before I begin, I want to be clear that everything here is in the realm
> > of speculative, long-term discussion. My goal is to start a
> > conversation, not to propose anything concrete right now.
> >
> >
> >
> > I've talked at several conferences about the possibility of bringing the
> > Rust programming language into the base system, with the intent of
> > making it a viable implementation language for parts of the base system.
> > I believe the potential security and stability benefits of doing this
> > are *substantial*. This would obviously be a serious undertaking, but I
> > think the benefits are worth the cost. For the rest of this mail, I'll
> > outline my position and present the important facts that support it.
> >
> > I of course welcome any discussion, criticism, or input.
> >
> > = Why Rust? =
> >
> > Rust is a true systems programming language that incorporates results
> > from programming language research that took place in the late 90's and
> > 2000's, and can be viewed as a culmination of this work. (Specifically,
> > it draws on work on region types as well as substructural types, but
> > that's its own survey article).
> >
> > This manifests most clearly in Rust's lifetime type system, which is
> > able to perform quite sophisticated reasoning about memory allocation
> > and ownership. Rust programs do not require you to explicitly manage
> > memory, but neither do they use garbage collection. Memory management
> > is automatically tracked by the lifetime types and allocations/frees are
> > added during compilation. Moreover, threaded programs are able to use
> > the same type system features to track ownership. This effectively
> > prevents a large class of memory- and concurrency-related errors *at the
> > type system level*, resulting in dramatically safer programs. Rust
> > provides an "unsafe" language facility for accomplishing low-level
> > tasks, so you're not prevented from getting things done; however, almost
> > all programs can be implemented without relying on unsafe, and doing so
> > eliminates what has probably been the two worst classes of bugs in the
> > history of computing.
> >
> > Because this is done at the type system level, it has no cost at
> > runtime. This theme of "zero-cost abstractions" runs throughout the
> > language, which makes it suitable as a replacement for C in the long
> > term. It also incorporates features befitting a modern programming
> > language such as parameterized types (aka generics), pattern-matching,
> > and trait-based polymorphism. Finally, it can interface with C/C++
> > binaries and libraries relatively easily, making it a suitable systems
> > implementation language.
> >
> > Because of these benefits, several projects (Mozilla and Tor) have begun
> > to reimplement their systems using Rust. Additionally, there is a
> > master's thesis about writing FreeBSD device drivers using Rust out
> > there somewhere (forgive me for not chasing it down).
> >
> > A secondary benefit is that Rust's packaging system, cargo, is built
> > around a more modern concept of modularity. This is in line with
> > FreeBSD's goals of modularizing the base system and reducing redundancy.
> >
> > = Downsides =
> >
> > There are a couple of downsides, which I'll outline briefly, and provide
> > some counterargumentation for them.
> >
> > * It's a big component
> >
> > Adding the entire Rust platform would add more to the buildworld time,
> > which is already quite long due to LLVM. OTOH, LLVM itself is a big
> > chunk of the rust build time, and we already build that as part of the
> > base system now. Moreover, it stands to reason that the compiler would
> > end up being the majority of an open-source operating system's build
> > time, with second place being the kernel itself. Compilers are an
> > active area of research with no signs of slowing down, and more hardware
> > platforms means more backends, which means the compiler ends up growing
> > over time, while most of the rest of the system doesn't.
> >
> > * The language is still evolving
> >
> > While this is true, the language has gotten *way* more mature in the
> > past year and a half, and I think it's ready to hold up major codebases
> > and production use, or at the very least it will be by the time we'd be
> > seriously looking at bringing it in.
> >
> > * Rust binaries are large
> >
> > This issue can be avoided with the proper use of build flags. The
> > default settings use static linking for everything, and bring in the
> > entire runtime library (which isn't necessary in most cases). See this
> > article:
> > https://lifthrasiir.github.io/rustlog/why-is-a-rust-executable-large.html.
> > With LTO, the size can be cut down to that of a C++ binary, and with
> > dynamic linking, the executable size is comparable to a C program. If
> > we were seriously using rust, we would probably change the default flags
> > to use dynamic linking/LTO by default, in fact.
> >
> >
> > = Alternatives =
> >
> > There have been several alternatives that come up when I mention this.
> > I'll discuss the two big ones: go and C++
> >
> > == C++ ==
> >
> > C++ is already in the base system, of course. It could be brought into
> > the kernel with some effort and restrictions. The biggest argument for
> > Rust over C++ in my view is that Rust is a much simpler, cleaner
> > language. C++ at this point is bewilderingly complex as a language, and
> > has so many bells and whistles that it almost requires an effort to
> > decide which subset of the language will be used. This also tends to
> > slow down efforts to expand the language over time.
> >
> > Rust by comparison is much leaner. Its lifetime type system can be
> > intimidating, but the benefits are well worth getting used to it. To
> > sum it up, C++ certainly isn't going anywhere, but I think Rust has a
> > great deal more vitality as a language.
> >
> > == Go ==
> >
> > Go is not really a "systems language" in the sense that C or Rust are.
> > It isn't a replacement for C so much as a replacement for python.
> >
> > What's more, it is almost universally disliked by people with a
> > background in programming languages (I am one of those). There's a
> > couple of reasons for this. First, it omits a number of features that
> > modern languages *really* should include, parameterized types (generics)
> > being one of the most glaring. Beyond that, it completely ignores
> > anything produced by modern PL research (unlike Rust, which benefits
> > from that work). Second, one of its main design parameters was "it
> > should compile fast". This as a design constraint basically guarantees
> > that you can't do anything interesting in compilation, which rules out
> > both advanced type systems as well as serious optimization.
> >
> > Unlike Rust, which offers substantial security and stability benefits
> > through its type system, Go would do little more than just change the
> > syntax of a bunch of code. Moreover, it's likely that there would be
> > performance consequences, given the design constraint of fast compilation.
> >
> > = Summary =
> >
> > Rust is a modern systems language with substantial benefits, and is
> > well-poised to become the heir apparent to C as the dominant systems
> > language going into the future. For this reason, I think we should
> > seriously consider it as a language for the base system at some point in
> > the future, when the time is right and after sufficient exploration and
> > experimentation.
> >
> _______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 09:36:18 -0800
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> On Dec 31, 2018, at 7:02 AM, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
=E2=80=A6.
> TBH, there's a stronger case for python than rust: there's actual =
python
> scripts in the tree today that we have to install a port to use. And =
there
> the benefit, while not zero, is small and the effort is large compared =
to
> just dragging it in as a port, so it hasn't been done. It's another =
fast
> evolving language that requires multiple versions as well...
>=20
> So write something that everybody wants, that must be in base, and =
that
> requires rust, and then we can have the conversation=E2=80=A6
As someone who has been using python extensively over the past decade, I =
think that using python versions less than 3.7 without type hints to =
ensure that the data types are correct [1], mocked tests to ensure that =
the code functions and is tested, is the wrong path to make.
Rust is still a young language, but it has a number of benefits in terms =
of:
i. Being able to scale past JIT python. This fact doesn=E2=80=99t matter =
on workstations/servers, but it definitely matters on the low end with =
embedded systems and the upper end with distributed systems at scale =
(there=E2=80=99s a reason why a number of critical services at my =
previous longterm employment were written in C++, not python. Some argue =
Rust can outperform C/C++ [2]. C++ I can see (managed pointers were =
about an order of magnitude less performant in a microbenchmark I wrote =
for grabbing the time in the Linux kernel vs malloc in C using llvm36). =
However, outperforming C is up for debate.
ii. It is easier to grok than C++ (even the most recent versions of the =
C++ spec, the language is cryptic in areas).
iii. It is more reusable than C out of the box. How often do we need to =
rewrite common logic/routines in C and mimic an OOP language like C++ =
(see libarchive, pkgng)?
<offtopic>
At the end of the day, I think the key is that the FreeBSD project needs =
to start expressing more complicated subsystems in terms of OOP =
languages, like C++, Rust, etc, instead of expressing most of the code =
in C. I do think (for instance) a service management system would be a =
good candidate for modern C++ or Rust.
</offtopic>
Cheers,
-Enji
1. https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0484/ =
<https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0484/>
2. =
https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/5urar1/is_rust_likely_the_next_fast=
est_language_after_c/ =
<https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/5urar1/is_rust_likely_the_next_fas=
test_language_after_c/>
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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From: Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net>
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Cc: "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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On 12/31/18 1:56 AM, Conrad Meyer wrote:
> Rust has many of the exact same problems C++ has. Sure, it avoids a
> few classes of issue. But it doesn't fix the classic C++ problems of
> extremely slow build times (if you think C++ is bad, Rust is worse)
> and having a kitchen sink of language features that make Rust and C++
> code difficult to grok.
I would debate the kitchen sink claim. For one, Rust benefits from a
solid understanding of type systems that didn't exist when C++ was
created. Proper parameterized types are a significant improvement over
C++ templates (the same holds for Java's generics, but that's
tangential). This alone reduces the complexity of the language (and its
error messages) considerably. While I give C++ slack on the issue of
templates because Somebody Had To Go First, that doesn't mean I relish
the idea of writing C++ code.
Beyond that, the C++ standardization process these days is seemingly
aiming at bringing everything under the sun into the language itself,
whereas Rust went for a syntax extension system and an overall language
design that avoids the need to graft everything into the language
itself. (Side note: as much as I loathe macros in programming
languages, Rust actually seems to have produced a reasonable macro-like
system)
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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On 12/31/18 9:21 AM, Igor Mozolevsky wrote:
> Does the generated code size increase or decrease and does the
> data-path get longer or shorter with switch from C to Rust with all
> the "great features" of Rust? Are there any metrics for these? If a
> CPU cache gets trashed repeatedly or data takes massive d-tours that
> would be a significant downside, wouldn't it?
Since most of the deltas of Rust over C are accomplished through
type-checking, I don't imagine this would be an issue.
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Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 13:05:24 -0500
From: Diane Bruce <db@db.net>
To: Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com>
Cc: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com>, Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net>,
"freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 09:36:18AM -0800, Enji Cooper wrote:
>
> > On Dec 31, 2018, at 7:02 AM, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
>
...
> <offtopic>
> At the end of the day, I think the key is that the FreeBSD project needs to start expressing more complicated subsystems in terms of OOP languages, like C++, Rust, etc, instead of expressing most of the code in C. I do think (for instance) a service management system would be a good candidate for modern C++ or Rust.
> </offtopic>
Well, as someone who remembers when Fortran was King and much systems(!)
programming such as editors etc. was done in Fortran, I cheer on
any effort moving on from the failed Fortran compiler 'C'.
FWIW I happen to like Rust and Python. So um I'll just step back
and let others do the painting.
P.S. I prefer plaid green and orange with purple stripes.
<back into my hole with my popcorn>
>
> Cheers,
> -Enji
>
> 1. https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0484/ <https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0484/>
> 2. https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/5urar1/is_rust_likely_the_next_fastest_language_after_c/ <https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/5urar1/is_rust_likely_the_next_fastest_language_after_c/>
--
- db@FreeBSD.org db@db.net http://artemis.db.net/~db
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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From: Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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On 12/31/18 12:36 PM, Enji Cooper wrote:
> Rust is still a young language, but it has a number of benefits in term=
s of:
> i. Being able to scale past JIT python. This fact doesn=E2=80=99t matte=
r on workstations/servers, but it definitely matters on the low end with =
embedded systems and the upper end with distributed systems at scale (the=
re=E2=80=99s a reason why a number of critical services at my previous lo=
ngterm employment were written in C++, not python. Some argue Rust can ou=
tperform C/C++ [2]. C++ I can see (managed pointers were about an order o=
f magnitude less performant in a microbenchmark I wrote for grabbing the =
time in the Linux kernel vs malloc in C using llvm36). However, outperfor=
ming C is up for debate.
In terms of outperforming C++, you can outrun it on anything that
involves virtual calls or runtime type information. C++ compilers have
gotten pretty good at optimizing this stuff, but that's all an
approximation of just not doing it in the first place.
In terms of C, I think the more accurate notion is that you converge to
C-like performance over time. There's not a lot of opportunity to pull
out ahead of C in terms of performance, afterall, at least in purely
sequential code.
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Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 10:19:26 -0800
From: Steve Kargl <sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu>
To: Diane Bruce <db@db.net>
Cc: Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com>, Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net>,
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 01:05:24PM -0500, Diane Bruce wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 09:36:18AM -0800, Enji Cooper wrote:
> >
> > > On Dec 31, 2018, at 7:02 AM, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
> >
> ...
> > <offtopic>
> > At the end of the day, I think the key is that the FreeBSD project needs to start expressing more complicated subsystems in terms of OOP languages, like C++, Rust, etc, instead of expressing most of the code in C. I do think (for instance) a service management system would be a good candidate for modern C++ or Rust.
> > </offtopic>
>
> Well, as someone who remembers when Fortran was King and much systems(!)
> programming such as editors etc. was done in Fortran, I cheer on
> any effort moving on from the failed Fortran compiler 'C'.
>
All those Fortran codes from years ago, if written in
standard conforming Fortran, will still compile today.
J3 (Fortran standardization committee) goes to great
length to retain backwards compatiability with older
standards. The latest revision to the language was
ratified as an international standard only a few weeks
ago. https://wg5-fortran.org/f2018.html
--
Steve
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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Hi.
Just to add my 2c. ;-)
If the objective is *security* and *reliability*, the said options: C++=20
(assuming HIC++), Rust, and Haskwell are all surpassed in these regards by=
=20
Ada/SPARK (yes, there is the compiler problem) and OCaml, both in fact used=
=20
by high integrity safe-critical industries.
There is a new Ada standard coming (Ada2020), and the Ada standard=20
`updates` are not the hell of C++ ones.
The SPARK language is being formally verified by INRIA using the Coq proof=
=20
assistant (which is written in OCaml).
http://sworthodoxy.blogspot.com/2017/03/comparing-ada-and-high-integrity-c.=
html
PS. oh, there is also a CompCert frontend being written for SPARK by INRIA=
=20
(at least they were prototyping it in 2014).
Cheers!
--=20
Best Regards,
Alexandre C. Guimar=C3=A3es.
https://bitbucket.org/rigoletto-freebsd/
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To: Volker Lendecke <Volker.Lendecke@SerNet.DE>
Cc: "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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On Mon, 31 Dec 2018 17:07:38 +0100
Volker Lendecke <Volker.Lendecke@SerNet.DE> wrote:
> Not being involved in FreeBSD but in Samba, I could see a migration of
> parts of Samba to Rust if it had a Rust->C translator. I think for
> FreeBSD base components similar arguments would apply. You could ship
> the C output for the platforms that don't have native Rust.
Rust is modern geeks toy by mozilla.
Just waste ot time, without any real profits.
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From: Rozhuk Ivan <rozhuk.im@gmail.com>
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Cc: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com>, Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net>,
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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On Mon, 31 Dec 2018 09:36:18 -0800
Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com> wrote:
> iii. It is more reusable
> than C out of the box. How often do we need to rewrite common
> logic/routines in C and mimic an OOP language like C++ (see
> libarchive, pkgng)?
This is not a problem.
> <offtopic>
> At the end of the day, I think the key is that the FreeBSD project
> needs to start expressing more complicated subsystems in terms of OOP
> languages, like C++, Rust, etc, instead of expressing most of the
> code in C. I do think (for instance) a service management system
> would be a good candidate for modern C++ or Rust. </offtopic>
>
C - 100 pages
C++ - 1000 pages.
Rust - unknown, not stable.
Why some one should learn things so big to do same thing that can be done with simple C?
From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mon Dec 31 19:26:52 2018
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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On Mon, 31 Dec 2018 12:58:51 -0500
Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net> wrote:
> I would debate the kitchen sink claim. For one, Rust benefits from a
> solid understanding of type systems that didn't exist when C++ was
> created. Proper parameterized types are a significant improvement
> over C++ templates (the same holds for Java's generics, but that's
> tangential). This alone reduces the complexity of the language (and
> its error messages) considerably. While I give C++ slack on the
> issue of templates because Somebody Had To Go First, that doesn't
> mean I relish the idea of writing C++ code.
>
Who cares!?
Who will support all this staff?
I want that programs works, I do not care types, classes and other things.
Now most things works, so why we should waste time to rewrite it to more difficult to understand and support languages?
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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Rozhuk Ivan wrote in <20181231221030.6471937e@rimwks>:
|On Mon, 31 Dec 2018 17:07:38 +0100
|Volker Lendecke <Volker.Lendecke@SerNet.DE> wrote:
|
|> Not being involved in FreeBSD but in Samba, I could see a migration of
|> parts of Samba to Rust if it had a Rust->C translator. I think for
|> FreeBSD base components similar arguments would apply. You could ship
|> the C output for the platforms that don't have native Rust.
|
|Rust is modern geeks toy by mozilla.
|Just waste ot time, without any real profits.
I vote for Nim (former Nimrod is no more).
--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)
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Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 13:21:02 -0800
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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Hi Eric,
I don't disagree that C++ is worse than Rust in that regard. I just
don't believe Rust is enough better to be a suitable *C* replacement
(it's a perfectly fine C++ replacement).
Things that are closer to suitable might be:
1. Enabling stronger C semantics and runtime enforcement over existing
code. It might be possible to enable globally and selectively disable
only on performance sensitive code, while still covering the majority
of the system. Some work has been done by the Cambridge academics as
part of CHERI / Cerberus / REMS ("Rigorous Engineering for Mainstream
Systems"). A demo of Cerberus is online at
http://cerberus.cl.cam.ac.uk/cerberus ; press 'forward' a few times.
Or it could be something else (UBSan and ASan on security-critical
userspace programs?). But the migration path from existing code is
more clear and requires less "throw away the world" as step 1.
2. Ziglang seems somewhat promising. It's still immature and I am
certainly not claiming the pros of rewriting components or including
new compilers in base outweigh the cons. But its aims are closer to C
than C++ or Rust (simplicity, no operator overloading) and that seems
a better fit. It is also based on LLVM, which comes with some of the
same drawbacks as Rust (or Clang, for that matter) re: toolchain build
time and supported architectures. https://github.com/ziglang/zig
Best,
Conrad
On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 9:59 AM Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net> wrote:
>
> On 12/31/18 1:56 AM, Conrad Meyer wrote:
> > Rust has many of the exact same problems C++ has. Sure, it avoids a
> > few classes of issue. But it doesn't fix the classic C++ problems of
> > extremely slow build times (if you think C++ is bad, Rust is worse)
> > and having a kitchen sink of language features that make Rust and C++
> > code difficult to grok.
>
> I would debate the kitchen sink claim. For one, Rust benefits from a
> solid understanding of type systems that didn't exist when C++ was
> created. Proper parameterized types are a significant improvement over
> C++ templates (the same holds for Java's generics, but that's
> tangential). This alone reduces the complexity of the language (and its
> error messages) considerably. While I give C++ slack on the issue of
> templates because Somebody Had To Go First, that doesn't mean I relish
> the idea of writing C++ code.
>
> Beyond that, the C++ standardization process these days is seemingly
> aiming at bringing everything under the sun into the language itself,
> whereas Rust went for a syntax extension system and an overall language
> design that avoids the need to graft everything into the language
> itself. (Side note: as much as I loathe macros in programming
> languages, Rust actually seems to have produced a reasonable macro-like
> system)
>
From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mon Dec 31 22:27:10 2018
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>> FreeBSD base components similar arguments would apply. You could ship
>> the C output for the platforms that don't have native Rust.
>
> Rust is modern geeks toy by mozilla.
> Just waste ot time, without any real profits.
>
> _______________________________________________
still it's quite fearful such discussion happens at all here.
I still need some real usable unix system and will need in coming years so
i'm feared.
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From: "Garance A Drosehn" <gad@FreeBSD.org>
To: "Alan Somers" <asomers@freebsd.org>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 17:44:29 -0500
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On 31 Dec 2018, at 11:52, Alan Somers wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 12:17 AM Conrad Meyer <cem@freebsd.org> wrote:
>>
>> Rust has many of the exact same problems C++ has. Sure, it avoids
>> a few classes of issue. But it doesn't fix the classic C++ problems
>> of extremely slow build times (if you think C++ is bad, Rust is
>> worse) and having a kitchen sink of language features that make Rust
>> and C++ code difficult to grok.
>
> Do you have any data to support the claim of slow build times?
> I know it's very hard to do an apples-to-apples comparison of build
> times between different languages, but I would be interested to see
> somebody try.
I know that it takes a very long time to build rust (the compiler
itself) on my mac, and FreeBSD's buildworld always starts out by
building the compilers that it needs. So adding rust to the base
system is going to cause an immediate and noticeable increase in
the time used by buildworld. (now maybe that means we should
come up with some different ideas for handling the compilers in
buildworld, but I digress...).
On 31 Dec 2018, at 8:18, Jan Knepper wrote:
>
> What about D?
> www.dlang.org
>
> ManiaC++
> Jan Knepper
For what it's worth, I'm also interested in D-lang, and I know that
the developers of D are paying attention to Rust, and trying to
figure out what ideas from Rust could be added to D-lang without
making a mess of things. And it's nice that there are three
separate implementations of D-lang. ... but no, I would not
include D-lang into the base system just yet.
But getting back to Rust:
On 31 Dec 2018, at 9:21, Igor Mozolevsky wrote:
>
> On Mon, 31 Dec 2018 at 05:42, Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net> =
> wrote:
>>
>> Before I begin, I want to be clear that everything here is in the =
>> realm
>> of speculative, long-term discussion. My goal is to start a
>> conversation, not to propose anything concrete right now.
>
>
> Does the generated code size increase or decrease and does the
> data-path get longer or shorter with switch from C to Rust with
> all the "great features" of Rust? Are there any metrics for
> these? If a CPU cache gets trashed repeatedly or data takes
> massive detours that would be a significant downside, wouldn't it?
I've been somewhat interested in Rust for awhile, although I haven't
had the time to do much of anything with it. Part of the answer to
your questions will depend on how good the programmers are. One
advantage the BSD projects have by sticking with C is that we have
spent a lot of time becoming good at that one language. We have a
lot of developers who can look at an update to C code, and quickly
notice some of the most-common problems which come up when writing C.
But there is evidence that once you have decent experience with Rust,
then you can write code which is as fast or even faster than what you
would write in C.
Lately Bryan Cantrill has been taking some deep dives into using Rust,
and it's interesting to listen to his experiences. In particular his
summer-project for rewriting one of his own programs (called =
"Statemaps")
into Rust, which went much better than he expected it to. Here are a
few of his recent presentations where he's talked about Rust:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DaWbGPMxs0AM - Statemaps in Rust
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D2wZ1pCpJUIM - Rust and other interestin=
g =
things
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DLjFM8vw3pbU - The Summer of Rust
https://www.slideshare.net/bcantrill/is-it-time-to-rewrite-the-operating-=
system-in-rust
-- Title: "Is it time to rewrite the operating system in Rust?"
-- "A talk given at QConSF in 2018. Video to come"
-- Spoiler: The answer is "No" for *rewriting* an operating
system, but it could be a good choice for writing new
modules for an existing kernel.
I think he's done a few other presentations wrt Rust, but I can't
seem to find them right now. Maybe they're on Vimeo.
I expect Rust could be very interesting for systems-programming in
the future, but I also think we (FreeBSD developers) would need to
have more experience with it before pulling it into the base system.
-- =
Garance Alistair Drosehn =3D drosih@rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer or gad@FreeBSD.org
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy, NY; USA
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it's nothing wrong with C. no need for another modern language that
"fixes" problems that doesn't exist when properly programming
On Sun, 30 Dec 2018, Eric McCorkle wrote:
> Before I begin, I want to be clear that everything here is in the realm
> of speculative, long-term discussion. My goal is to start a
> conversation, not to propose anything concrete right now.
>
>
>
> I've talked at several conferences about the possibility of bringing the
> Rust programming language into the base system, with the intent of
> making it a viable implementation language for parts of the base system.
> I believe the potential security and stability benefits of doing this
> are *substantial*. This would obviously be a serious undertaking, but I
> think the benefits are worth the cost. For the rest of this mail, I'll
> outline my position and present the important facts that support it.
>
> I of course welcome any discussion, criticism, or input.
>
> = Why Rust? =
>
> Rust is a true systems programming language that incorporates results
> from programming language research that took place in the late 90's and
> 2000's, and can be viewed as a culmination of this work. (Specifically,
> it draws on work on region types as well as substructural types, but
> that's its own survey article).
>
> This manifests most clearly in Rust's lifetime type system, which is
> able to perform quite sophisticated reasoning about memory allocation
> and ownership. Rust programs do not require you to explicitly manage
> memory, but neither do they use garbage collection. Memory management
> is automatically tracked by the lifetime types and allocations/frees are
> added during compilation. Moreover, threaded programs are able to use
> the same type system features to track ownership. This effectively
> prevents a large class of memory- and concurrency-related errors *at the
> type system level*, resulting in dramatically safer programs. Rust
> provides an "unsafe" language facility for accomplishing low-level
> tasks, so you're not prevented from getting things done; however, almost
> all programs can be implemented without relying on unsafe, and doing so
> eliminates what has probably been the two worst classes of bugs in the
> history of computing.
>
> Because this is done at the type system level, it has no cost at
> runtime. This theme of "zero-cost abstractions" runs throughout the
> language, which makes it suitable as a replacement for C in the long
> term. It also incorporates features befitting a modern programming
> language such as parameterized types (aka generics), pattern-matching,
> and trait-based polymorphism. Finally, it can interface with C/C++
> binaries and libraries relatively easily, making it a suitable systems
> implementation language.
>
> Because of these benefits, several projects (Mozilla and Tor) have begun
> to reimplement their systems using Rust. Additionally, there is a
> master's thesis about writing FreeBSD device drivers using Rust out
> there somewhere (forgive me for not chasing it down).
>
> A secondary benefit is that Rust's packaging system, cargo, is built
> around a more modern concept of modularity. This is in line with
> FreeBSD's goals of modularizing the base system and reducing redundancy.
>
> = Downsides =
>
> There are a couple of downsides, which I'll outline briefly, and provide
> some counterargumentation for them.
>
> * It's a big component
>
> Adding the entire Rust platform would add more to the buildworld time,
> which is already quite long due to LLVM. OTOH, LLVM itself is a big
> chunk of the rust build time, and we already build that as part of the
> base system now. Moreover, it stands to reason that the compiler would
> end up being the majority of an open-source operating system's build
> time, with second place being the kernel itself. Compilers are an
> active area of research with no signs of slowing down, and more hardware
> platforms means more backends, which means the compiler ends up growing
> over time, while most of the rest of the system doesn't.
>
> * The language is still evolving
>
> While this is true, the language has gotten *way* more mature in the
> past year and a half, and I think it's ready to hold up major codebases
> and production use, or at the very least it will be by the time we'd be
> seriously looking at bringing it in.
>
> * Rust binaries are large
>
> This issue can be avoided with the proper use of build flags. The
> default settings use static linking for everything, and bring in the
> entire runtime library (which isn't necessary in most cases). See this
> article:
> https://lifthrasiir.github.io/rustlog/why-is-a-rust-executable-large.html.
> With LTO, the size can be cut down to that of a C++ binary, and with
> dynamic linking, the executable size is comparable to a C program. If
> we were seriously using rust, we would probably change the default flags
> to use dynamic linking/LTO by default, in fact.
>
>
> = Alternatives =
>
> There have been several alternatives that come up when I mention this.
> I'll discuss the two big ones: go and C++
>
> == C++ ==
>
> C++ is already in the base system, of course. It could be brought into
> the kernel with some effort and restrictions. The biggest argument for
> Rust over C++ in my view is that Rust is a much simpler, cleaner
> language. C++ at this point is bewilderingly complex as a language, and
> has so many bells and whistles that it almost requires an effort to
> decide which subset of the language will be used. This also tends to
> slow down efforts to expand the language over time.
>
> Rust by comparison is much leaner. Its lifetime type system can be
> intimidating, but the benefits are well worth getting used to it. To
> sum it up, C++ certainly isn't going anywhere, but I think Rust has a
> great deal more vitality as a language.
>
> == Go ==
>
> Go is not really a "systems language" in the sense that C or Rust are.
> It isn't a replacement for C so much as a replacement for python.
>
> What's more, it is almost universally disliked by people with a
> background in programming languages (I am one of those). There's a
> couple of reasons for this. First, it omits a number of features that
> modern languages *really* should include, parameterized types (generics)
> being one of the most glaring. Beyond that, it completely ignores
> anything produced by modern PL research (unlike Rust, which benefits
> from that work). Second, one of its main design parameters was "it
> should compile fast". This as a design constraint basically guarantees
> that you can't do anything interesting in compilation, which rules out
> both advanced type systems as well as serious optimization.
>
> Unlike Rust, which offers substantial security and stability benefits
> through its type system, Go would do little more than just change the
> syntax of a bunch of code. Moreover, it's likely that there would be
> performance consequences, given the design constraint of fast compilation.
>
> = Summary =
>
> Rust is a modern systems language with substantial benefits, and is
> well-poised to become the heir apparent to C as the dominant systems
> language going into the future. For this reason, I think we should
> seriously consider it as a language for the base system at some point in
> the future, when the time is right and after sufficient exploration and
> experimentation.
>
>
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From: "Garance A Drosehn" <gad@FreeBSD.org>
To: "Alan Somers" <asomers@freebsd.org>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 19:26:28 -0500
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On 31 Dec 2018, at 17:44, Garance A Drosehn wrote:
>> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 12:17 AM Conrad Meyer <cem@freebsd.org> wrote:
>>
>> Do you have any data to support the claim of slow build times?
>> I know it's very hard to do an apples-to-apples comparison of build
>> times between different languages, but I would be interested to see
>> somebody try.
>
> I know that it takes a very long time to build rust (the compiler
> itself) on my mac, and FreeBSD's buildworld always starts out by
> building the compilers that it needs. So adding rust to the base
> system is going to cause an immediate and noticeable increase in
> the time used by buildworld.
> On 31 Dec 2018, at 9:21, Igor Mozolevsky wrote:
>>
>> Does the generated code size increase or decrease and does the
>> data-path get longer or shorter with switch from C to Rust with
>> all the "great features" of Rust? Are there any metrics for
>> these? If a CPU cache gets trashed repeatedly or data takes
>> massive detours that would be a significant downside, wouldn't it?
>
> I've been somewhat interested in Rust for awhile, although I haven't
> had the time to do much of anything with it. Part of the answer to
> your questions will depend on how good the programmers are.
There's two questions wrt performance. One is how long it takes
to compile some program, and then the other is how fast the
code is which is produced by the compiler. A note on both of
those: Rust has the notion of "building for release", in which
case the compile-time step takes *much* longer, but all that
extra time goes into producing better code in the resulting
program.
So if you think the compiler is fast but that it's generating very
slow programs, then it might be that you're not doing "a release
build".
There's one program written in rust which I use a lot, which is
called 'ripgrep' (or 'rg' for short). It's one of the few programs
which I install via pre-compiled pkgs, because I don't want to wait
for all the time it takes to compile a release-build. But I'm very
happy with how fast the program runs.
--
Garance Alistair Drosehn = drosih@rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer or gad@FreeBSD.org
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy, NY; USA
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From: Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 00:53:48 +0000
Message-ID: <CADWvR2gPF_xM4mDi-uuWq3C6qKh72Kn17=g6bOLPMYYHsayO8Q@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
To: Garance A Drosehn <gad@freebsd.org>
Cc: Alan Somers <asomers@freebsd.org>,
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On Tue, 1 Jan 2019 at 00:30, Garance A Drosehn wrote:
<snip>
> There's two questions wrt performance. One is how long it takes
> to compile some program, and then the other is how fast the
> code is which is produced by the compiler. A note on both of
> those: Rust has the notion of "building for release", in which
> case the compile-time step takes *much* longer, but all that
> extra time goes into producing better code in the resulting
> program.
Quite frankly the compile time isn't really *that* important, and
longer (if not much longer) build times might push toward a better
modularisation and compartmentalisation of the OS and the kernel so a
small change in the kernel, for example, doesn't require the
recompilation of the whole damn thing when nothing else is affected.
*However,* in my experience various language "freebies" never truly
come "free," the cheese a mousetrap springs to mind. And some of the
"for"-reasons don't make much sense:- take the no need to alloc/free
memory, for example, the only way to guarantee that it is really free
is for some static analysis to envisage every plausible path the code
takes and insert the appropriate statements in the appropriate
places... *BUT* if you can do that in a static analyser, why not just
run the static analysed against c-code and let it flag up bugs
instead?
<snip>
> There's one program written in rust which I use a lot, which is
> called 'ripgrep' (or 'rg' for short). It's one of the few programs
> which I install via pre-compiled pkgs, because I don't want to wait
> for all the time it takes to compile a release-build. But I'm very
> happy with how fast the program runs.
And what metric is that against? I'm very happy with the speed jQuery
is executed in my browser, but that's no reasonable metric to argue
that JavaScript is a suitable language for the kernel...
--
Igor M.
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From: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
Subject: RE: Speculative: Rust for base system components
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 17:10:46 -0800
To: Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>, Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net>
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Unlikely I'll get to my computer, I'll reply more tersely.
Agreed.
Some thoughts/questions.
Do we need another language in base when the same exists in ports? Can this=
wait for pkg base?
Are we not trying to reduce base bloat and the maintenance of questionable =
software? Consider our current cull efforts.
---
Sent using a tiny phone keyboard.
Apologies for any typos and autocorrect.
Also, this old phone only supports top post. Apologies.
Cy Schubert
<Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com> or <cy@freebsd.org>
The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
---
-----Original Message-----
From: Wojciech Puchar
Sent: 31/12/2018 14:53
To: Eric McCorkle
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
it's nothing wrong with C. no need for another modern language that=20
"fixes" problems that doesn't exist when properly programming
On Sun, 30 Dec 2018, Eric McCorkle wrote:
> Before I begin, I want to be clear that everything here is in the realm
> of speculative, long-term discussion. My goal is to start a
> conversation, not to propose anything concrete right now.
>
>
>
> I've talked at several conferences about the possibility of bringing the
> Rust programming language into the base system, with the intent of
> making it a viable implementation language for parts of the base system.
> I believe the potential security and stability benefits of doing this
> are *substantial*. This would obviously be a serious undertaking, but I
> think the benefits are worth the cost. For the rest of this mail, I'll
> outline my position and present the important facts that support it.
>
> I of course welcome any discussion, criticism, or input.
>
> =3D Why Rust? =3D
>
> Rust is a true systems programming language that incorporates results
> from programming language research that took place in the late 90's and
> 2000's, and can be viewed as a culmination of this work. (Specifically,
> it draws on work on region types as well as substructural types, but
> that's its own survey article).
>
> This manifests most clearly in Rust's lifetime type system, which is
> able to perform quite sophisticated reasoning about memory allocation
> and ownership. Rust programs do not require you to explicitly manage
> memory, but neither do they use garbage collection. Memory management
> is automatically tracked by the lifetime types and allocations/frees are
> added during compilation. Moreover, threaded programs are able to use
> the same type system features to track ownership. This effectively
> prevents a large class of memory- and concurrency-related errors *at the
> type system level*, resulting in dramatically safer programs. Rust
> provides an "unsafe" language facility for accomplishing low-level
> tasks, so you're not prevented from getting things done; however, almost
> all programs can be implemented without relying on unsafe, and doing so
> eliminates what has probably been the two worst classes of bugs in the
> history of computing.
>
> Because this is done at the type system level, it has no cost at
> runtime. This theme of "zero-cost abstractions" runs throughout the
> language, which makes it suitable as a replacement for C in the long
> term. It also incorporates features befitting a modern programming
> language such as parameterized types (aka generics), pattern-matching,
> and trait-based polymorphism. Finally, it can interface with C/C++
> binaries and libraries relatively easily, making it a suitable systems
> implementation language.
>
> Because of these benefits, several projects (Mozilla and Tor) have begun
> to reimplement their systems using Rust. Additionally, there is a
> master's thesis about writing FreeBSD device drivers using Rust out
> there somewhere (forgive me for not chasing it down).
>
> A secondary benefit is that Rust's packaging system, cargo, is built
> around a more modern concept of modularity. This is in line with
> FreeBSD's goals of modularizing the base system and reducing redundancy.
>
> =3D Downsides =3D
>
> There are a couple of downsides, which I'll outline briefly, and provide
> some counterargumentation for them.
>
> * It's a big component
>
> Adding the entire Rust platform would add more to the buildworld time,
> which is already quite long due to LLVM. OTOH, LLVM itself is a big
> chunk of the rust build time, and we already build that as part of the
> base system now. Moreover, it stands to reason that the compiler would
> end up being the majority of an open-source operating system's build
> time, with second place being the kernel itself. Compilers are an
> active area of research with no signs of slowing down, and more hardware
> platforms means more backends, which means the compiler ends up growing
> over time, while most of the rest of the system doesn't.
>
> * The language is still evolving
>
> While this is true, the language has gotten *way* more mature in the
> past year and a half, and I think it's ready to hold up major codebases
> and production use, or at the very least it will be by the time we'd be
> seriously looking at bringing it in.
>
> * Rust binaries are large
>
> This issue can be avoided with the proper use of build flags. The
> default settings use static linking for everything, and bring in the
> entire runtime library (which isn't necessary in most cases). See this
> article:
> https://lifthrasiir.github.io/rustlog/why-is-a-rust-executable-large.html=
.
> With LTO, the size can be cut down to that of a C++ binary, and with
> dynamic linking, the executable size is comparable to a C program. If
> we were seriously using rust, we would probably change the default flags
> to use dynamic linking/LTO by default, in fact.
>
>
> =3D Alternatives =3D
>
> There have been several alternatives that come up when I mention this.
> I'll discuss the two big ones: go and C++
>
> =3D=3D C++ =3D=3D
>
> C++ is already in the base system, of course. It could be brought into
> the kernel with some effort and restrictions. The biggest argument for
> Rust over C++ in my view is that Rust is a much simpler, cleaner
> language. C++ at this point is bewilderingly complex as a language, and
> has so many bells and whistles that it almost requires an effort to
> decide which subset of the language will be used. This also tends to
> slow down efforts to expand the language over time.
>
> Rust by comparison is much leaner. Its lifetime type system can be
> intimidating, but the benefits are well worth getting used to it. To
> sum it up, C++ certainly isn't going anywhere, but I think Rust has a
> great deal more vitality as a language.
>
> =3D=3D Go =3D=3D
>
> Go is not really a "systems language" in the sense that C or Rust are.
> It isn't a replacement for C so much as a replacement for python.
>
> What's more, it is almost universally disliked by people with a
> background in programming languages (I am one of those). There's a
> couple of reasons for this. First, it omits a number of features that
> modern languages *really* should include, parameterized types (generics)
> being one of the most glaring. Beyond that, it completely ignores
> anything produced by modern PL research (unlike Rust, which benefits
> from that work). Second, one of its main design parameters was "it
> should compile fast". This as a design constraint basically guarantees
> that you can't do anything interesting in compilation, which rules out
> both advanced type systems as well as serious optimization.
>
> Unlike Rust, which offers substantial security and stability benefits
> through its type system, Go would do little more than just change the
> syntax of a bunch of code. Moreover, it's likely that there would be
> performance consequences, given the design constraint of fast compilation=
.
>
> =3D Summary =3D
>
> Rust is a modern systems language with substantial benefits, and is
> well-poised to become the heir apparent to C as the dominant systems
> language going into the future. For this reason, I think we should
> seriously consider it as a language for the base system at some point in
> the future, when the time is right and after sufficient exploration and
> experimentation.
>
>
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From: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
Subject: RE: Speculative: Rust for base system components
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 17:36:39 -0800
To: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com>, Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net>
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If it requires rust it s/b in ports anyway.
---
Sent using a tiny phone keyboard.
Apologies for any typos and autocorrect.
Also, this old phone only supports top post. Apologies.
Cy Schubert
<Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com> or <cy@freebsd.org>
The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
---
-----Original Message-----
From: Warner Losh
Sent: 31/12/2018 07:48
To: Eric McCorkle
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 8:02 AM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 10:41 PM Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Before I begin, I want to be clear that everything here is in the realm
>> of speculative, long-term discussion. My goal is to start a
>> conversation, not to propose anything concrete right now.
>>
>
> Today, this is a losing bid. The cost for rust is high (both in terms of
> people and added compile time), it's not well supported on all our
> architectures (and its robustness on the ones it does support has only be=
en
> tested in limited scenarios), and there's 0 software it enables from day
> one. Plus, since it's a fast evolving language, we'll still need the port=
s
> to support those things that use it today since the likelihood of a versi=
on
> mismatch is high (and supporting 1 version would be a big stretch, multip=
le
> version is right out). So any sane cost / benefit analysis says: way more
> cost than benefit, forget about it. We simply don't have the man-power to
> maintain a high-cost, zero-benefit component in the tree. Lord knows we
> have a lot of non-zero-cost-with-almost-zero-benefit things in the tree
> today that we need to get rid of.
>
> In the future, when there are actual replacement things written, or there
> are new features written, that will shift the cost / benefit equation. An=
d
> the circumstances about what makes up base will also have shifted, if we'=
re
> lucky, and we'll be able to have a conversation. We imported perl and tcl
> on the speculative notion that people would build great things. That neve=
r
> really panned out, and they became a high-cost burden to keep modern for
> only minor benefit. And version skew in Perl was terrible by the end. For=
th
> and Lua live in the tree because they have benefit (though Forth will be
> departing, most likely by 13, and definitely by 14). They are also small
> and easy to update to new versions.
>
> And we can't say, with certainty, that if a bunch of rust things show up
> we'll use them in base. We'll have to see what they provide to benefit th=
e
> system.
>
> TBH, there's a stronger case for python than rust: there's actual python
> scripts in the tree today that we have to install a port to use. And ther=
e
> the benefit, while not zero, is small and the effort is large compared to
> just dragging it in as a port, so it hasn't been done. It's another fast
> evolving language that requires multiple versions as well...
>
> So write something that everybody wants, that must be in base, and that
> requires rust, and then we can have the conversation...
>
Just re-read this. It sounds a little more negative than I wanted to come
off. I'd only wanted to say today the needle is on 'nope' and I hope people
write enough cool stuff to justify moving the needle off 'nope' :) The last
part of that message seems more muted than I wanted.
Warner
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cc: Rozhuk Ivan <rozhuk.im@gmail.com>,
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 31 Dec 2018 21:14:23 +0100."
<20181231201423.mJwUS%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
References: <ca76e5f7-6e59-bd67-144a-90ad66f0252e@metricspace.net>
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<20181231201423.mJwUS%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
Comments: In-reply-to Steffen Nurpmeso <steffen@sdaoden.eu>
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On Mon, 31 Dec 2018 21:14:23 +0100 Steffen Nurpmeso <steffen@sdaoden.eu> w=
rote:
> Rozhuk Ivan wrote in <20181231221030.6471937e@rimwks>:
> |On Mon, 31 Dec 2018 17:07:38 +0100
> |Volker Lendecke <Volker.Lendecke@SerNet.DE> wrote:
> |
> |> Not being involved in FreeBSD but in Samba, I could see a migration =
of
> |> parts of Samba to Rust if it had a Rust->C translator. I think for
> |> FreeBSD base components similar arguments would apply. You could shi=
p
> |> the C output for the platforms that don't have native Rust.
> |
> |Rust is modern geeks toy by mozilla.
> |Just waste ot time, without any real profits.
>
> I vote for Nim (former Nimrod is no more).
So do I but it doesn't make sense to add any new language to
the base system without having a number of absolutely
essential programs written in that language that must also be
included in the base system. Even at that point, using any
such language for writing kernel code is madness. There are
millions of lines of C kernel code which are not going to
benefit in any way from the new language. Remember that except
for drivers the kernel is essentially a single binary. GC
becomes much less of an issue for user programs.
I'd rather see a much smaller base, with pkg install for
various typical user types.
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Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 13:46:20 +1100
From: Peter Jeremy <peter@rulingia.com>
To: Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>
Cc: Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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On 2019-Jan-01 00:53:48 +0000, Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk> wrot=
e:
>Quite frankly the compile time isn't really *that* important,
I disagree. FreeBSD seems to be heading back to the batch days - you
submit your buildworld request and come back tomorrow to see if it worked.
That is a significant hinderance to development and, based on various
mailing list comments, is causing breakage because developers are cutting
corners due to the pain involved in running "make universe" before they
make a large change.
>longer (if not much longer) build times might push toward a better
>modularisation and compartmentalisation of the OS and the kernel so a
>small change in the kernel, for example, doesn't require the
>recompilation of the whole damn thing when nothing else is affected.
Two problems here:
1) make doesn't seem to be sufficient to correctly describe a dependency
tree to allow incremental/partial builds (at, everyone I'm aware of who
has a successful incremental build system has started by migrating off
make). This means that a significant part of the work will be re-writing
the FreeBSD build system into something else like (eg) Bazel.
2) The bottleneck very quickly turns into the linker.
--=20
Peter Jeremy
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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From: Brian Neal <brian@aceshardware.com>
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This is a good read on some of the pitfalls of Rust:
https://hackernoon.com/why-im-dropping-rust-fd1c32986c88
In terms of performance, take a look at Rust on godbolt...a quick test I
just ran with a trivial program that sums up a sequence of odd numbers
is 29 instructions in C on clang 7.0 and a whopping 137 (!!!) on rustc
1.31.0!
Crazy...
On 12/30/2018 6:18 PM, Eric McCorkle wrote:
> Before I begin, I want to be clear that everything here is in the realm
> of speculative, long-term discussion. My goal is to start a
> conversation, not to propose anything concrete right now.
>
>
>
> I've talked at several conferences about the possibility of bringing the
> Rust programming language into the base system, with the intent of
> making it a viable implementation language for parts of the base system.
> I believe the potential security and stability benefits of doing this
> are *substantial*. This would obviously be a serious undertaking, but I
> think the benefits are worth the cost. For the rest of this mail, I'll
> outline my position and present the important facts that support it.
>
> I of course welcome any discussion, criticism, or input.
>
> = Why Rust? =
>
> Rust is a true systems programming language that incorporates results
> from programming language research that took place in the late 90's and
> 2000's, and can be viewed as a culmination of this work. (Specifically,
> it draws on work on region types as well as substructural types, but
> that's its own survey article).
>
> This manifests most clearly in Rust's lifetime type system, which is
> able to perform quite sophisticated reasoning about memory allocation
> and ownership. Rust programs do not require you to explicitly manage
> memory, but neither do they use garbage collection. Memory management
> is automatically tracked by the lifetime types and allocations/frees are
> added during compilation. Moreover, threaded programs are able to use
> the same type system features to track ownership. This effectively
> prevents a large class of memory- and concurrency-related errors *at the
> type system level*, resulting in dramatically safer programs. Rust
> provides an "unsafe" language facility for accomplishing low-level
> tasks, so you're not prevented from getting things done; however, almost
> all programs can be implemented without relying on unsafe, and doing so
> eliminates what has probably been the two worst classes of bugs in the
> history of computing.
>
> Because this is done at the type system level, it has no cost at
> runtime. This theme of "zero-cost abstractions" runs throughout the
> language, which makes it suitable as a replacement for C in the long
> term. It also incorporates features befitting a modern programming
> language such as parameterized types (aka generics), pattern-matching,
> and trait-based polymorphism. Finally, it can interface with C/C++
> binaries and libraries relatively easily, making it a suitable systems
> implementation language.
>
> Because of these benefits, several projects (Mozilla and Tor) have begun
> to reimplement their systems using Rust. Additionally, there is a
> master's thesis about writing FreeBSD device drivers using Rust out
> there somewhere (forgive me for not chasing it down).
>
> A secondary benefit is that Rust's packaging system, cargo, is built
> around a more modern concept of modularity. This is in line with
> FreeBSD's goals of modularizing the base system and reducing redundancy.
>
> = Downsides =
>
> There are a couple of downsides, which I'll outline briefly, and provide
> some counterargumentation for them.
>
> * It's a big component
>
> Adding the entire Rust platform would add more to the buildworld time,
> which is already quite long due to LLVM. OTOH, LLVM itself is a big
> chunk of the rust build time, and we already build that as part of the
> base system now. Moreover, it stands to reason that the compiler would
> end up being the majority of an open-source operating system's build
> time, with second place being the kernel itself. Compilers are an
> active area of research with no signs of slowing down, and more hardware
> platforms means more backends, which means the compiler ends up growing
> over time, while most of the rest of the system doesn't.
>
> * The language is still evolving
>
> While this is true, the language has gotten *way* more mature in the
> past year and a half, and I think it's ready to hold up major codebases
> and production use, or at the very least it will be by the time we'd be
> seriously looking at bringing it in.
>
> * Rust binaries are large
>
> This issue can be avoided with the proper use of build flags. The
> default settings use static linking for everything, and bring in the
> entire runtime library (which isn't necessary in most cases). See this
> article:
> https://lifthrasiir.github.io/rustlog/why-is-a-rust-executable-large.html.
> With LTO, the size can be cut down to that of a C++ binary, and with
> dynamic linking, the executable size is comparable to a C program. If
> we were seriously using rust, we would probably change the default flags
> to use dynamic linking/LTO by default, in fact.
>
>
> = Alternatives =
>
> There have been several alternatives that come up when I mention this.
> I'll discuss the two big ones: go and C++
>
> == C++ ==
>
> C++ is already in the base system, of course. It could be brought into
> the kernel with some effort and restrictions. The biggest argument for
> Rust over C++ in my view is that Rust is a much simpler, cleaner
> language. C++ at this point is bewilderingly complex as a language, and
> has so many bells and whistles that it almost requires an effort to
> decide which subset of the language will be used. This also tends to
> slow down efforts to expand the language over time.
>
> Rust by comparison is much leaner. Its lifetime type system can be
> intimidating, but the benefits are well worth getting used to it. To
> sum it up, C++ certainly isn't going anywhere, but I think Rust has a
> great deal more vitality as a language.
>
> == Go ==
>
> Go is not really a "systems language" in the sense that C or Rust are.
> It isn't a replacement for C so much as a replacement for python.
>
> What's more, it is almost universally disliked by people with a
> background in programming languages (I am one of those). There's a
> couple of reasons for this. First, it omits a number of features that
> modern languages *really* should include, parameterized types (generics)
> being one of the most glaring. Beyond that, it completely ignores
> anything produced by modern PL research (unlike Rust, which benefits
> from that work). Second, one of its main design parameters was "it
> should compile fast". This as a design constraint basically guarantees
> that you can't do anything interesting in compilation, which rules out
> both advanced type systems as well as serious optimization.
>
> Unlike Rust, which offers substantial security and stability benefits
> through its type system, Go would do little more than just change the
> syntax of a bunch of code. Moreover, it's likely that there would be
> performance consequences, given the design constraint of fast compilation.
>
> = Summary =
>
> Rust is a modern systems language with substantial benefits, and is
> well-poised to become the heir apparent to C as the dominant systems
> language going into the future. For this reason, I think we should
> seriously consider it as a language for the base system at some point in
> the future, when the time is right and after sufficient exploration and
> experimentation.
>
From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Tue Jan 1 03:24:54 2019
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From: Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 03:16:27 +0000
Message-ID: <CADWvR2iNo4vsjiOQMRLLoU+SeqG0NbaJ3nAjbZVriaxB+nGSxw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
To: Peter Jeremy <peter@rulingia.com>
Cc: Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
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On Tue, 1 Jan 2019 at 02:46, Peter Jeremy wrote:
>
> On 2019-Jan-01 00:53:48 +0000, Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk> wrote:
> >Quite frankly the compile time isn't really *that* important,
>
> I disagree. FreeBSD seems to be heading back to the batch days - you
> submit your buildworld request and come back tomorrow to see if it worked.
<snip>
In my book, that makes the submitter think about what they write, and
not mindlessly write code hoping it would automagically compile.
Throwing some code at a compiler to "see if it worked" is the
equivalent of a builder throwing some bricks together to see if they
would hold up as a house... I hope you'd expect far better from the
people who build the place where you live, right, so why do not apply
a similarly rigorous process to coding? What you're blaming is the
messy architecture and the unnecessary re-parsing of the same files
over and over, but that's a different problem to a slow code
generation _after_ the source had been parsed, AFAIK any compiler's
bottleneck is lexing and parsing [1].
1. Joel on Software p13, AJ Spolsky, Apress, NYC (too late at night to
do a proper reference)
--
Igor M.
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From: "Garance A Drosehn" <drosih@rpi.edu>
To: "Brian Neal" <brian@aceshardware.com>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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On 31 Dec 2018, at 23:04, Brian Neal wrote:
> This is a good read on some of the pitfalls of Rust:
>
> https://hackernoon.com/why-im-dropping-rust-fd1c32986c88
>
> In terms of performance, take a look at Rust on godbolt...a quick test
> I just ran with a trivial program that sums up a sequence of odd
> numbers is 29 instructions in C on clang 7.0 and a whopping 137 (!!!)
> on rustc 1.31.0!
>
> Crazy...
Did you compile your program as a "release build", or just as a
standard (quick) build?
--
Garance Alistair Drosehn = drosih@rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer or gad@FreeBSD.org
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy, NY; USA
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From: "Garance A Drosehn" <drosih@rpi.edu>
To: "Igor Mozolevsky" <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>
Cc: "Hackers freeBSD" <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 22:40:19 -0500
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On 31 Dec 2018, at 19:53, Igor Mozolevsky wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Jan 2019 at 00:30, Garance A Drosehn wrote:
>
>> There's one program written in rust which I use a lot, which is
>> called 'ripgrep' (or 'rg' for short). It's one of the few programs
>> which I install via pre-compiled pkgs, because I don't want to wait
>> for all the time it takes to compile a release-build. But I'm very
>> happy with how fast the program runs.
>
> And what metric is that against? I'm very happy with the speed jQuery
> is executed in my browser, but that's no reasonable metric to argue
> that JavaScript is a suitable language for the kernel...
I mentioned that program so each person could test it for themselves,
using whatever metric that they are comfortable with.
It is a self-contained alternative for 'grep', so you can test this
one program without pulling in a bunch of other dependencies (as
long as you install the pre-compiled package). And it has some nice
features which people might want to play with.
So if someone *wanted* to see a useful program which happens to be
written in rust, then this might be a good one to try. And it seems
to me that 'grep' is a good example of the kind of base-system
component which could be rewritten in rust. Note that 'grep' is
not part of the kernel. I'm sure we'd need to have a *lot* more
experience with rust (like, many years of experience) before we'd
talk about rewriting the kernel in rust. (or in any other language).
In case it isn't obvious, my position is that we need more developers
who have real-world experience writing real programs in rust before
we add it to the base system. IMO, we should not add rust and then
"hope" someone will find a glorious use for it. However, I also think
that rust is interesting enough that it would be good if some of us
could spend some time (out of our copious spare time) to gain that
experience.
And a happy new year to all, with or without rust.
--
Garance Alistair Drosehn = drosih@rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer or gad@FreeBSD.org
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy, NY; USA
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From: Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 03:47:03 +0000
Message-ID: <CADWvR2j0Zdp4i3nk-D=GpDXwS0Wnob2ydakSc-Frs0zu5Y2nBA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
To: Garance A Drosehn <drosih@rpi.edu>
Cc: Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
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On Tue, 1 Jan 2019 at 03:40, Garance A Drosehn wrote:
>
> On 31 Dec 2018, at 19:53, Igor Mozolevsky wrote:
>
> On Tue, 1 Jan 2019 at 00:30, Garance A Drosehn wrote:
>
> There's one program written in rust which I use a lot, which is
> called 'ripgrep' (or 'rg' for short). It's one of the few programs
> which I install via pre-compiled pkgs, because I don't want to wait
> for all the time it takes to compile a release-build. But I'm very
> happy with how fast the program runs.
>
> And what metric is that against? I'm very happy with the speed jQuery
> is executed in my browser, but that's no reasonable metric to argue
> that JavaScript is a suitable language for the kernel...
>
> I mentioned that program so each person could test it for themselves,
> using whatever metric that they are comfortable with.
<snip>
I think you missed the point I was trying to make: you're comparing
apples and oranges---sure, they are (for most part) round, but they're
different! What you need is the implementation of the same algorithm
in both C and Rust and then we can talk...
Happy New Year!
--
Igor M.
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From: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
Subject: RE: Speculative: Rust for base system components
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 20:56:46 -0800
To: Peter Jeremy <peter@rulingia.com>, Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>
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What would having another language in base buy us? This reminds me of a cou=
ple of months ago at OpenHack Victoria someone was trying to convince me th=
at the kernel needed a JavaVM. (Sure we each had a few beers) but the simil=
arity of this discussion doesn't escape me. Kernel modules and functions wr=
itten in java^H^H^H^H rust: why?
---
Sent using a tiny phone keyboard.
Apologies for any typos and autocorrect.
Also, this old phone only supports top post. Apologies.
Cy Schubert
<Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com> or <cy@freebsd.org>
The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
---
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Jeremy
Sent: 31/12/2018 18:48
To: Igor Mozolevsky
Cc: Hackers freeBSD
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
On 2019-Jan-01 00:53:48 +0000, Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk> wrot=
e:
>Quite frankly the compile time isn't really *that* important,
I disagree. FreeBSD seems to be heading back to the batch days - you
submit your buildworld request and come back tomorrow to see if it worked.
That is a significant hinderance to development and, based on various
mailing list comments, is causing breakage because developers are cutting
corners due to the pain involved in running "make universe" before they
make a large change.
>longer (if not much longer) build times might push toward a better
>modularisation and compartmentalisation of the OS and the kernel so a
>small change in the kernel, for example, doesn't require the
>recompilation of the whole damn thing when nothing else is affected.
Two problems here:
1) make doesn't seem to be sufficient to correctly describe a dependency
tree to allow incremental/partial builds (at, everyone I'm aware of who
has a successful incremental build system has started by migrating off
make). This means that a significant part of the work will be re-writing
the FreeBSD build system into something else like (eg) Bazel.
2) The bottleneck very quickly turns into the linker.
--=20
Peter Jeremy
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From: Damjan Jovanovic <damjan.jov@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 08:14:47 +0200
Message-ID: <CAJm2B-=o8xtCDcN38mcwDTToxS8zw6twyfgQQEWqdj3eLwcB=A@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
To: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
Cc: Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
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Kernel modules in Rust might benefit from the better type checking and thus
less memory leaks, less memory corruption, etc. but they are usually small
anyway so it's probably not worth it.
The bigger benefit of running Java applications (not device drivers) in the
kernel is performance. If applications run in kernel mode, context
switching between kernel threads is much faster than user threads, system
calls just become function calls, etc. Unlike C, Java can be sandboxed (at
least in theory), and lack of native pointers and memory safety ensure it
cannot access hardware directly anyway, so the rest of the system is still
protected. Around 2005, Microsoft Research made Singularity OS, which used
such techniques to run safely C# applications in the kernel, and it was
about 20% faster than C in user space.
On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 6:59 AM Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
wrote:
> What would having another language in base buy us? This reminds me of a
> couple of months ago at OpenHack Victoria someone was trying to convince me
> that the kernel needed a JavaVM. (Sure we each had a few beers) but the
> similarity of this discussion doesn't escape me. Kernel modules and
> functions written in java^H^H^H^H rust: why?
>
> ---
> Sent using a tiny phone keyboard.
> Apologies for any typos and autocorrect.
> Also, this old phone only supports top post. Apologies.
>
> Cy Schubert
> <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com> or <cy@freebsd.org>
> The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
> ---
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Jeremy
> Sent: 31/12/2018 18:48
> To: Igor Mozolevsky
> Cc: Hackers freeBSD
> Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
>
> On 2019-Jan-01 00:53:48 +0000, Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>
> wrote:
> >Quite frankly the compile time isn't really *that* important,
>
> I disagree. FreeBSD seems to be heading back to the batch days - you
> submit your buildworld request and come back tomorrow to see if it worked.
> That is a significant hinderance to development and, based on various
> mailing list comments, is causing breakage because developers are cutting
> corners due to the pain involved in running "make universe" before they
> make a large change.
>
> >longer (if not much longer) build times might push toward a better
> >modularisation and compartmentalisation of the OS and the kernel so a
> >small change in the kernel, for example, doesn't require the
> >recompilation of the whole damn thing when nothing else is affected.
>
> Two problems here:
> 1) make doesn't seem to be sufficient to correctly describe a dependency
> tree to allow incremental/partial builds (at, everyone I'm aware of who
> has a successful incremental build system has started by migrating off
> make). This means that a significant part of the work will be re-writing
> the FreeBSD build system into something else like (eg) Bazel.
> 2) The bottleneck very quickly turns into the linker.
>
> --
> Peter Jeremy
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list
> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"
>
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
To: Garance A Drosehn <drosih@rpi.edu>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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From: Brian Neal <brian@aceshardware.com>
Message-ID: <92bd5362-d898-aa12-8f3d-9fbe23f38e0c@aceshardware.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 23:32:09 -0800
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It was a debug build with no optimization for either compiler. But we
can easily run a variety of settings for comparison:
Compiler             Flags                Inst. Count Build Time
======================================================================
clang 7.0.0          none                          33 296ms
                     -O3                           23 341ms
rustc 1.31.0         none                         110 606ms
                     -C opt-level=3                67 643ms
gcc 8.2              none                          37 211ms
                     -O2                           24 249ms
                     -O3                         119* 206ms
* With -O3, gcc unrolled and vectorized the loop. The other compilers
did not emit vectorized code at any of the standard optimization levels.
So, essentially, double the build time and ~3 times the code for the
same logic.
On 12/31/2018 7:23 PM, Garance A Drosehn wrote:
>
> On 31 Dec 2018, at 23:04, Brian Neal wrote:
>
> This is a good read on some of the pitfalls of Rust:
>
> https://hackernoon.com/why-im-dropping-rust-fd1c32986c88
>
> In terms of performance, take a look at Rust on godbolt...a quick
> test I just ran with a trivial program that sums up a sequence of
> odd numbers is 29 instructions in C on clang 7.0 and a whopping
> 137 (!!!) on rustc 1.31.0!
>
> Crazy...
>
> Did you compile your program as a "release build", or just as a
> standard (quick) build?
>
> --
> Garance Alistair Drosehn = drosih@rpi.edu
> Senior Systems Programmer or gad@FreeBSD.org
> Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy, NY; USA
>
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To: Damjan Jovanovic <damjan.jov@gmail.com>
cc: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>,
Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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In message <CAJm2B-=o8xtCDcN38mcwDTToxS8zw6twyfgQQEWqdj3eLwcB=A@mail.gma
il.com>
, Damjan Jovanovic writes:
> --000000000000caa538057e5f7945
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Kernel modules in Rust might benefit from the better type checking and thus
> less memory leaks, less memory corruption, etc. but they are usually small
> anyway so it's probably not worth it.
>
> The bigger benefit of running Java applications (not device drivers) in the
> kernel is performance. If applications run in kernel mode, context
> switching between kernel threads is much faster than user threads, system
> calls just become function calls, etc. Unlike C, Java can be sandboxed (at
> least in theory), and lack of native pointers and memory safety ensure it
> cannot access hardware directly anyway, so the rest of the system is still
> protected. Around 2005, Microsoft Research made Singularity OS, which used
> such techniques to run safely C# applications in the kernel, and it was
> about 20% faster than C in user space.
Microsoft renders fonts in the kernel too. Look at the (security)
trouble that that's caused them.
C++ exception handling (which can be "muted" and not recommended) isn't
best practice for kernel programming. Are you sure you want C++, C#,
Java, Javascript (also discussed at OpenHack), or rust in the kernel.
Really?
Not being rhetorical here but Microsoft isn't a great a example of we
should strive for.
I'm with Warner. No. Rust should remain in ports. Apps that depend on
rust should be in ports. Optional kernel modules should also be in
ports.
--
Cheers,
Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
FreeBSD UNIX: <cy@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org
The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
> On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 6:59 AM Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
> wrote:
>
> > What would having another language in base buy us? This reminds me of a
> > couple of months ago at OpenHack Victoria someone was trying to convince me
> > that the kernel needed a JavaVM. (Sure we each had a few beers) but the
> > similarity of this discussion doesn't escape me. Kernel modules and
> > functions written in java^H^H^H^H rust: why?
> >
> > ---
> > Sent using a tiny phone keyboard.
> > Apologies for any typos and autocorrect.
> > Also, this old phone only supports top post. Apologies.
> >
> > Cy Schubert
> > <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com> or <cy@freebsd.org>
> > The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
> > ---
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Peter Jeremy
> > Sent: 31/12/2018 18:48
> > To: Igor Mozolevsky
> > Cc: Hackers freeBSD
> > Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
> >
> > On 2019-Jan-01 00:53:48 +0000, Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>
> > wrote:
> > >Quite frankly the compile time isn't really *that* important,
> >
> > I disagree. FreeBSD seems to be heading back to the batch days - you
> > submit your buildworld request and come back tomorrow to see if it worked.
> > That is a significant hinderance to development and, based on various
> > mailing list comments, is causing breakage because developers are cutting
> > corners due to the pain involved in running "make universe" before they
> > make a large change.
> >
> > >longer (if not much longer) build times might push toward a better
> > >modularisation and compartmentalisation of the OS and the kernel so a
> > >small change in the kernel, for example, doesn't require the
> > >recompilation of the whole damn thing when nothing else is affected.
> >
> > Two problems here:
> > 1) make doesn't seem to be sufficient to correctly describe a dependency
> > tree to allow incremental/partial builds (at, everyone I'm aware of who
> > has a successful incremental build system has started by migrating off
> > make). This means that a significant part of the work will be re-writing
> > the FreeBSD build system into something else like (eg) Bazel.
> > 2) The bottleneck very quickly turns into the linker.
> >
> > --
> > Peter Jeremy
> > _______________________________________________
> > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list
> > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers
> > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"
> >
>
> --000000000000caa538057e5f7945
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Kernel modules in Rust might benefit from the better =
> type checking and thus less memory leaks, less memory corruption, etc. but =
> they are usually small anyway so it's probably not worth it.<br></div><=
> div><br></div><div>The bigger benefit of running Java applications (not dev=
> ice drivers) in the kernel is performance. If applications run in kernel mo=
> de, context switching between kernel threads is much faster than user threa=
> ds, system calls just become function calls, etc. Unlike C, Java can be san=
> dboxed (at least in theory), and lack of native pointers and memory safety =
> ensure it cannot access hardware directly anyway, so the rest of the system=
> is still protected. Around 2005, Microsoft Research made Singularity OS, w=
> hich used such techniques to run safely C# applications in the kernel, and =
> it was about 20% faster than C in user space.<br></div><br><div class=3D"gm=
> ail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 6:59 AM Cy Schubert <=
> <a href=3D"mailto:Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com">Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com</a>&=
> gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
> px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">What =
> would having another language in base buy us? This reminds me of a couple o=
> f months ago at OpenHack Victoria someone was trying to convince me that th=
> e kernel needed a JavaVM. (Sure we each had a few beers) but the similarity=
> of this discussion doesn't escape me. Kernel modules and functions wri=
> tten in java^H^H^H^H rust: why?<br>
> <br>
> ---<br>
> Sent using a tiny phone keyboard.<br>
> Apologies for any typos and autocorrect.<br>
> Also, this old phone only supports top post. Apologies.<br>
> <br>
> Cy Schubert<br>
> <<a href=3D"mailto:Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com" target=3D"_blank">Cy.Schub=
> ert@cschubert.com</a>> or <<a href=3D"mailto:cy@freebsd.org" target=
> =3D"_blank">cy@freebsd.org</a>><br>
> The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.<br>
> ---<br>
> <br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: Peter Jeremy<br>
> Sent: 31/12/2018 18:48<br>
> To: Igor Mozolevsky<br>
> Cc: Hackers freeBSD<br>
> Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components<br>
> <br>
> On 2019-Jan-01 00:53:48 +0000, Igor Mozolevsky <<a href=3D"mailto:igor@h=
> ybrid-lab.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk</a>> wrote:<br>
> >Quite frankly the compile time isn't really *that* important,<br>
> <br>
> I disagree.=C2=A0 FreeBSD seems to be heading back to the batch days - you<=
> br>
> submit your buildworld request and come back tomorrow to see if it worked.<=
> br>
> That is a significant hinderance to development and, based on various<br>
> mailing list comments, is causing breakage because developers are cutting<b=
> r>
> corners due to the pain involved in running "make universe" befor=
> e they<br>
> make a large change.<br>
> <br>
> >longer (if not much longer) build times might push toward a better<br>
> >modularisation and compartmentalisation of the OS and the kernel so a<b=
> r>
> >small change in the kernel, for example, doesn't require the<br>
> >recompilation of the whole damn thing when nothing else is affected.<br=
> >
> <br>
> Two problems here:<br>
> 1) make doesn't seem to be sufficient to correctly describe a dependenc=
> y<br>
> tree to allow incremental/partial builds (at, everyone I'm aware of who=
> <br>
> has a successful incremental build system has started by migrating off<br>
> make).=C2=A0 This means that a significant part of the work will be re-writ=
> ing<br>
> the FreeBSD build system into something else like (eg) Bazel.<br>
> 2) The bottleneck very quickly turns into the linker.<br>
> <br>
> -- <br>
> Peter Jeremy<br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> <a href=3D"mailto:freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" target=3D"_blank">freebsd-ha=
> ckers@freebsd.org</a> mailing list<br>
> <a href=3D"https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers" rel=
> =3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinf=
> o/freebsd-hackers</a><br>
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "<a href=3D"mailto:freebsd-hackers-un=
> subscribe@freebsd.org" target=3D"_blank">freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebs=
> d.org</a>"<br>
> </blockquote></div></div>
>
> --000000000000caa538057e5f7945--
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To: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
cc: Damjan Jovanovic <damjan.jov@gmail.com>,
Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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--------
In message <201901010800.x0180Is3058668@slippy.cwsent.com>, Cy Schubert wr=
ites:
>I'm with Warner. No. Rust should remain in ports. Apps that depend on =
>rust should be in ports. Optional kernel modules should also be in =
>ports.
And we should get pkgbase pushed across the finish-line and split the most
rarely used parts of src into ports as well.
-- =
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe =
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence=
.
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To: "Peter Jeremy" <peter@rulingia.com>
Cc: "Igor Mozolevsky" <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>,
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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On 31 Dec 2018, at 23:16, Peter Jeremy wrote:
> 1) make doesn't seem to be sufficient to correctly describe a
> dependency
> tree to allow incremental/partial builds (at, everyone I'm aware of
> who
> has a successful incremental build system has started by migrating off
> make). This means that a significant part of the work will be
> re-writing
> the FreeBSD build system into something else like (eg) Bazel.
Or Fabrique? :)
https://fabriquer.github.io
That page is a bit out of date with respect to the language as it
currently stands, but the essentials (and the aspirations!) are still
the same.
Jon
--
Jonathan Anderson
jonathan@FreeBSD.org
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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From: Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Message-ID: <a2d04773-c7cc-457d-4db6-913cb84e885b@metricspace.net>
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
References: <20190101045638.D280E1F56@spqr.komquats.com>
In-Reply-To: <20190101045638.D280E1F56@spqr.komquats.com>
--40zQJvQINjrS8i7U0w9C4z0duC53dUJgc
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On 12/31/18 11:56 PM, Cy Schubert wrote:
> What would having another language in base buy us? This reminds me of a=
couple of months ago at OpenHack Victoria someone was trying to convince=
me that the kernel needed a JavaVM. (Sure we each had a few beers) but t=
he similarity of this discussion doesn't escape me. Kernel modules and fu=
nctions written in java^H^H^H^H rust: why?
I don't think that's a fair comparison at all. Rust is a systems
language built around zero-cost abstractions that is usable for
developing real embedded code. Java is a completely different animal,
and there is no reasonable case for a Java VM in the kernel/loader.
I'm all for discussion and criticism of this, that's why I posted it,
but I don't think these kinds of false equivalences are helpful.
--40zQJvQINjrS8i7U0w9C4z0duC53dUJgc--
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Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2019 17:23:16 +0100
From: Steffen Nurpmeso <steffen@sdaoden.eu>
To: Bakul Shah <bakul@bitblocks.com>
Cc: Rozhuk Ivan <rozhuk.im@gmail.com>,
"freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>,
Volker Lendecke <Volker.Lendecke@SerNet.DE>
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
Message-ID: <20190101162316.wa1vN%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
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the world can make no bugs.
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Bakul Shah wrote in <20190101015536.A54DF156E410@mail.bitblocks.com>:
|On Mon, 31 Dec 2018 21:14:23 +0100 Steffen Nurpmeso <steffen@sdaoden.eu> \
|wrote:
|> Rozhuk Ivan wrote in <20181231221030.6471937e@rimwks>:
|>|On Mon, 31 Dec 2018 17:07:38 +0100
|>|Volker Lendecke <Volker.Lendecke@SerNet.DE> wrote:
|>|
|>|> Not being involved in FreeBSD but in Samba, I could see a migration of
|>|> parts of Samba to Rust if it had a Rust->C translator. I think for
|>|> FreeBSD base components similar arguments would apply. You could ship
|>|> the C output for the platforms that don't have native Rust.
|>|
|>|Rust is modern geeks toy by mozilla.
|>|Just waste ot time, without any real profits.
|>
|> I vote for Nim (former Nimrod is no more).
|
|So do I but it doesn't make sense to add any new language to
|the base system without having a number of absolutely
|essential programs written in that language that must also be
|included in the base system. Even at that point, using any
|such language for writing kernel code is madness. There are
|millions of lines of C kernel code which are not going to
|benefit in any way from the new language. Remember that except
|for drivers the kernel is essentially a single binary. GC
|becomes much less of an issue for user programs.
Of course not (imho), why not?, kernel-me? no!, and bloats of
undocumented sysctl knobs there too!, and a very large one! Yes,
nim uses gc. It is converted to native C[/C++/JavaScript] and
then compiled. Oh - i for one would wish that C++ would be
nothing than a layer on top of the current ISO C standard (weird
enough), and could be dispatched in a C++-preprocessed form, so
that TinyCC, pcc and all the rest could be used to compile it.
(Not on FreeBSD of course, where those are broken, or were once
i last tried.)
All i was saying is that Julia and Nim are good languages.
I like the latter the most. It is for real-life programmers.
|I'd rather see a much smaller base, with pkg install for
|various typical user types.
Things get damaged. Things get broken.
And i am almost away. (I have no Phabricator account.)
I shake my head often. Unforgotten for example the claim
"multi-column layout seems to have never worked" from a core team
member when some old but great document by some "danish dynamite"
has been thrown away (to packages). I seem to remember it that
way (sorry if false).
I am not an administrator, and i am almost not using perl anymore
for new things, there are not many of those, and if i try to go
sh -> awk -> perl and seldom have the needs to reach the end of
that pipeline. But perl is a text processing language with full
Unicode support and no doubts is a helpful hand to many, take
email and you find git send-email (not me however), spam checking,
dkim and other such server side stuff. Log parsing. An admin
needs something, you hack it out of the box, from within the box.
Now as a package, i seemed to have understood the reasoning.
About this thread: i would have understood on April 1st.
Ciao,
require the last for the
things which i need to do
Aren't there 100000 packages already?
--End of <20190101015536.A54DF156E410@mail.bitblocks.com>
--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)
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<a2d04773-c7cc-457d-4db6-913cb84e885b@metricspace.net>
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From: Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 16:00:26 +0000
Message-ID: <CADWvR2izXwGRwkWn52x6s3U73ki5Qdg98Y-00use=G9febhrGA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
To: Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net>
Cc: Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
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On Tue, 1 Jan 2019 at 15:54, Eric McCorkle wrote:
<snip>
> I don't think that's a fair comparison at all. Rust is a systems
> language built around zero-cost abstractions that is usable for
> developing real embedded code
<snip>
Brian's simple experiment [1] demonstrates that "zero-cost" is more of
an aspiration (and a very long term one, perhaps) than a hard fact ;-)
1. https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-hackers/2019-January/053837.html
</snip></snip>
--
Igor M.
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To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
From: "Julian H. Stacey" <jhs@berklix.com>
Organization: http://berklix.eu BSD Unix Linux Consultants, Munich Aachen Kent
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I'm against rust being imported into src/, wasting hard bought
space & build time. Src/ is still too big, (& obj/ monstrous compared
to old days (clang I spose, shrug)), even though we've suffered
much disruption, things being ripped out of src/ supposedly to save
[sometime little] space. Let's not squander that hard bought space & time.
Cheers,
Julian
--
Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant Sys.Eng. BSD Linux Unix, Munich Aachen Kent
First referendum stole 700,000 votes from Brits in EU; 3,700,000 globaly.
Lies criminal funded; jobs pound & markets down. 1.9M new voters 1.3M dead.
Email MP: "A new referendum will buy UK & EU more time (Art 50.3), to avoid
a hard crash, & consider all options." http://berklix.org/brexit/#mp
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From: Steffen Nurpmeso <steffen@sdaoden.eu>
To: "Julian H. Stacey" <jhs@berklix.com>
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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Julian H. Stacey wrote in <201901011704.x01H44OS090017@fire.js.berklix.net>:
|I'm against rust being imported into src/, wasting hard bought
|space & build time. Src/ is still too big, (& obj/ monstrous compared
|to old days (clang I spose, shrug)), even though we've suffered
|much disruption, things being ripped out of src/ supposedly to save
|[sometime little] space. Let's not squander that hard bought space & time.
And not to forget the base system as such.
Just last week (or the end of the week before that) i have tried
to use the address sanitizer on a freshly installed 11.2 i386
FreeBSD. No (result unbelievable).
Because of my very limited download budget i had to choose what
i could download next to get a working installation, and have
chosen to go for ArchLinux (even though i never had a workign
memory sanitizers there, but address sanitizer i have used there
many times) December/2018 and do the upgrade with
all the stuff (still one GB+). I was right (in that it was not my
fault).
--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)
From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Tue Jan 1 19:50:24 2019
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To: Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net>,
"freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
From: Pedro Giffuni <pfg@FreeBSD.org>
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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> Before I begin, I want to be clear that everything here is in the realm
> of speculative, long-term discussion. My goal is to start a
> conversation, not to propose anything concrete right now.
>
>
>
> I've talked at several conferences about the possibility of bringing the
> Rust programming language into the base system, with the intent of
> making it a viable implementation language for parts of the base system.
> I believe the potential security and stability benefits of doing this
> are *substantial*. This would obviously be a serious undertaking, but I
> think the benefits are worth the cost. For the rest of this mail, I'll
> outline my position and present the important facts that support it.
>
FWIW, my take around this and similar proposals is ...
Just go ahead and fork it on github and see how far it gets. Nowadays it
is very easy to start a new project and explore the possibilities.
If it seems to have a real future eventually people will ask for it to
be merged, if it doesn't .. well at least you really explored the idea.
Perhaps you may even end up merging it with redux-os :).
Cheers,
Pedro.
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Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 10:14:13 +0000
From: Edward Napierala <trasz@freebsd.org>
To: freebsd-hackers Hackers <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
Cc: freebsd-current <freebsd-current@freebsd.org>
Subject: Call for 2018Q4 quarterly status reports
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Dear FreeBSD Community,
The deadline for the next FreeBSD Quarterly Status update is January 31,
2019, for work done since the last round of Quarterly Reports: October,
2018 =E2=80=93 September, 2018.
Status report submissions do not need to be very long. They may be
about anything happening in the FreeBSD project and community, and
provide a great way to inform FreeBSD users and developers about
work that is underway and completed. Submission of reports is not
restricted to committers; anyone doing anything interesting and
FreeBSD related can -- and should -- write one!
The preferred method is to follow the guidelines at the Quarterly
GitHub repository:
https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-quarterly
Alternatively you can fetch the Markdown template, fill it in, and email
it to quarterly@FreeBSD.org. The template can be found at:
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/freebsd/freebsd-quarterly/master/report-s=
ample.md
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We look forward to seeing your 2018Q4 reports!
Thanks,
Edward (on behalf of quarterly@)
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From: Edward Napierala <trasz@freebsd.org>
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 20:44:12 +0000
Message-ID: <CAFLM3-r=eQujUK70_CgY6NEzzFpNgEZ1vO210NrDYkTq_p6Fww@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Call for 2018Q4 quarterly status reports
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wt., 1 sty 2019 o 20:36 Edward Napierala <trasz@freebsd.org> napisa=C5=82(a=
):
>
> Dear FreeBSD Community,
[..]
> We look forward to seeing your 2018Q4 reports!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Edward (on behalf of quarterly@)
> Dear FreeBSD Community,
>
> The deadline for the next FreeBSD Quarterly Status update is October 31,
> 2018, for work done since the last round of Quarterly Reports: October,
> 2017 =E2=80=93 September, 2018.
This latter part - a copy of the previous call for reports - obviously wasn=
't
supposed to be there, sorry.
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Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2019 18:16:21 -0500
From: drosih <drosih@rpi.edu>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
In-Reply-To: <CADWvR2izXwGRwkWn52x6s3U73ki5Qdg98Y-00use=G9febhrGA@mail.gmail.com>
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On 2019-01-01 11:00, Igor Mozolevsky wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Jan 2019 at 15:54, Eric McCorkle wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > I don't think that's a fair comparison at all. Rust is a systems
> > language built around zero-cost abstractions that is usable for
> > developing real embedded code
>
> <snip>
>
> Brian's simple experiment [1] demonstrates that "zero-cost" is
> more of an aspiration (and a very long term one, perhaps) than
> a hard fact ;-)
Brian's simple experiment is a simple experiment. It's interesting,
but hardly the definitive word in evaluating a language. We need
more real-world experience with serious programs before dismissing
rust. But at the same time, we need much more real-world experience
with writing rust before we can consider bringing it into the base
system. We can't bring it into the base system and then hope that
"magic happens" because it's sitting there.
I thought the 'ripgrep' program seemed like an interesting one
to look at. Compare how fast it works to how fast our grep works.
(I have not done that comparison! I just take advantage of the
extra features that 'ripgrep' has.) And 'ripgrep' works fine as
a port. It does not need to be in the base system. It's just an
example to look at, for those who might be interested in rust.
Maybe other people know of other real-world useful programs which
are written in rust, and which might be interesting to look at.
So consider me a cheerleader for "Let's get some more experience!".
(not that all of us can do that, but at least *some* of us!)
-- garance alistair drosehn aka gad@FreeBSD.org
-- senior systems programmer @rpi
From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Tue Jan 1 23:55:31 2019
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From: Alan Somers <asomers@freebsd.org>
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 16:55:10 -0700
Message-ID: <CAOtMX2h5+x8YOESqAuf-BOP2R3ezcYqqxUb8HBE9UUrj3ciidA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
To: drosih <drosih@rpi.edu>
Cc: "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
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On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 4:17 PM drosih <drosih@rpi.edu> wrote:
>
> On 2019-01-01 11:00, Igor Mozolevsky wrote:
> > On Tue, 1 Jan 2019 at 15:54, Eric McCorkle wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > I don't think that's a fair comparison at all. Rust is a systems
> > > language built around zero-cost abstractions that is usable for
> > > developing real embedded code
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > Brian's simple experiment [1] demonstrates that "zero-cost" is
> > more of an aspiration (and a very long term one, perhaps) than
> > a hard fact ;-)
>
> Brian's simple experiment is a simple experiment. It's interesting,
> but hardly the definitive word in evaluating a language. We need
> more real-world experience with serious programs before dismissing
> rust. But at the same time, we need much more real-world experience
> with writing rust before we can consider bringing it into the base
> system. We can't bring it into the base system and then hope that
> "magic happens" because it's sitting there.
>
> I thought the 'ripgrep' program seemed like an interesting one
> to look at. Compare how fast it works to how fast our grep works.
> (I have not done that comparison! I just take advantage of the
> extra features that 'ripgrep' has.) And 'ripgrep' works fine as
> a port. It does not need to be in the base system. It's just an
> example to look at, for those who might be interested in rust.
>
> Maybe other people know of other real-world useful programs which
> are written in rust, and which might be interesting to look at.
Freshmeat knows of 38. Just look at the reverse dependencies for
rust: https://www.freshports.org/lang/rust/ . Some interesting ones
are alacritty (a fast terminal emulator), exa (ls replacement), fd
(find replacement), suricata (IDS), xi (text editor), tokei (cloc
replacement), sccache (like ccache but networked), and of course our
favorite web browser. Also notable is libjail-rs, a jail(3)
replacement written in Rust. https://github.com/fubarnetes/libjail-rs
.
-Alan
>
> So consider me a cheerleader for "Let's get some more experience!".
> (not that all of us can do that, but at least *some* of us!)
>
> -- garance alistair drosehn aka gad@FreeBSD.org
> -- senior systems programmer @rpi
>
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list
> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"
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Reply-To: cem@freebsd.org
From: Conrad Meyer <cem@freebsd.org>
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 16:35:49 -0800
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
To: drosih <drosih@rpi.edu>
Cc: "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
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Hi Garance,
On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 3:18 PM drosih <drosih@rpi.edu> wrote:
> Brian's simple experiment is a simple experiment. It's interesting,
> but hardly the definitive word in evaluating a language.
Sure, that's fair enough. On the other hand, it matches every other
report of the compiler and language I've heard, even from advocates of
the language. Compiler performance was on the Rust roadmap for 2017
(incremental rebuilds added during 2017) and 2018:
https://blog.rust-lang.org/2017/02/06/roadmap.html
https://blog.rust-lang.org/2018/03/12/roadmap.html
In particular I think the Rust 2018 community survey (URL below) is
informative. Scroll to the figure just above "Many non-users
responded that they did want to learn Rust, but there were factors
that slowed them down." Leading reasons for people who had used Rust
but no longer did were: (1) Rust is too intimidating, too hard to
learn, or too complicated; (3) Rust doesn't solve a problem for me;
and (6) Switching to Rust would slow me down too much. One of the top
10 free-form comments for November 2018 is "improve compile times."
It's still a problem.
https://blog.rust-lang.org/2018/11/27/Rust-survey-2018.html
> I thought the 'ripgrep' program seemed like an interesting one
> to look at. Compare how fast it works to how fast our grep works.
It's not a great comparison; our grep (either GNU grep 2.5.1 or
BSDgrep) is just not very good and must conform to POSIX.
'ag' (pkg install the_silver_searcher) is a more interesting
comparison, with similar ability to exclude files automatically. Both
are source-code focused; by default, both .gitignore and similar files
to exclude files and directories. Both share similar goals, probably
inspired by 'ack' (which is slower than both): high real-world
performance, threaded search, and fast, non-PCRE regular expressions
by default.
On the other hand, grep(1) must maintain POSIX compatibility, which
makes for significantly slower defaults in many searches. This limits
the impact of improving the performance of the internals on
real-world, default-behavior search =E2=80=94 because excluding files is a
huge boon for ag/rg.
In my experience, ripgrep is much faster than our grep, but pretty
similar to 'ag'. Both have a comparable feature set; if anything, ag
has more features IME.
The binary sizes are interesting:
-r-xr-xr-x 3 root wheel 113640 Nov 4 15:47 /usr/bin/grep*
-r-xr-xr-x 1 root wheel 89104 Oct 28 14:24 /usr/local/bin/ag*
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 4284416 Oct 29 05:12 /usr/local/bin/rg*
All are dynamically linked and stripped amd64 binaries. Ripgrep
(Rust) is 48x the binary size of ag and 37x that of grep(1). Like
grep(1), 'ag' is written in C.
Of that 4 MB binary, 2805414 bytes of ripgrep are ".text". Other
major contributors are .rodata, .eh_frame and .rela.dyn at 540kB,
300kB, and 240kB respectively.
Of the 89 kB ag binary, 37 kB is ".text", 14kB is ".rodata," and 13kB
is ".data". I think this difference is illustrative and reasonably
representative.
Best,
Conrad
From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Wed Jan 2 01:56:18 2019
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Subject: Re: Using kqueue with aio_read/write
To: Alan Somers <asomers@freebsd.org>
Cc: FreeBSD Hackers <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
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From: Willem Jan Withagen <wjw@digiware.nl>
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On 28/12/2018 02:47, Alan Somers wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 6:15 PM Willem Jan Withagen <wjw@digiware.nl> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Im trying to understand why I cannot get so code to work.
>> This is the smallest extract I can make to show my problem.
>>
>> I would expect the kevent() call to return every timeo tick.
>> Even if I tell it NOT to time-out I get these spurts of errors
>>
>> Since there is nothing to trigger the AIO-event, I would expect kqueue
>> to hold indefinitly.
>>
>> But it does not generate anything other than errors
>> And instead it repeatedly complains that there is a permission error:
>> get_events_kevent: EV_Error(1) kevent(): Operation not permitted
>>
>> But I'm not getting where that would the case...
>>
>> Surely a pilot error, but I do overlook it al the time.
>> So suggestions are welcome.
>>
>> Thanx,
>> --WjW
>>
>> #include <aio.h>
>> #include <errno.h>
>> #include <fcntl.h>
>> #include <stdio.h>
>> #include <stdlib.h>
>> #include <string.h>
>> #include <sys/stat.h>
>> #include <sys/event.h>
>> #include <unistd.h>
>>
>> #define BUFFER_SIZE 512
>> #define MAX_EVENTS 32
>>
>> #define FILENAME "/tmp/aio_test"
>> char filename[256];
>> int fd;
>> int done = 0;
>>
>> void get_events_kevent(int fd, int kq)
>> {
>> printf("get_events function fd = %d, kq = %d\n", fd, kq);
>> int i = 0, errcnt = 0, err, ret, reterr, rev;
>> int search = 1;
>>
>> int timeout_ms = 10;
>> struct timespec timeo = {
>> timeout_ms / 1000,
>> (timeout_ms % 1000) * 1000 * 1000
>> };
>> struct kevent filter[16];
>> struct kevent changed[16];
>>
>> EV_SET(&filter[0], fd, EVFILT_AIO,
>> EV_ADD,
>> 0, 0, 0 );
>
> This is the first problem. There's no need to explicitly set
> EVFILT_AIO on the kqueue. It gets set by the aio_read(2) or similar
> syscall. And this invocation wouldn't be correct anyway, because for
> AIO the ident field refers to the address of the struct aiocb, not the
> file descriptor. If the only events you care about are AIO, then you
> can pass NULL as the filter argument to kevent. I suspect this is the
> cause of your problem. The kernel probably thinks you're trying to
> register for an aiocb that's outside of your address space or
> something like that.
>
>
>> while (!done) {
>> printf("+");
>> rev = kevent(kq, filter, 1, changed, 16, 0); //&timeo);
>> if (rev < 0) {
>> perror("kevent error");
>> } else if (rev == 0) {
>> printf("T");
>> } else {
>> printf("rev(%d)\n", rev);
>> if (changed[0].flags == EV_ERROR) {
>> errno = changed[0].data;
>> printf( "%s: EV_Error(%d) kevent(): %s\n", __func__, errno,
>> strerror(errno));
>> memset(&changed[0], 0, sizeof(struct kevent));
>> } else {
>> err = aio_error((struct aiocb*)changed[0].udata);
>
> No need to call aio_error(2) after kevent(2) returns. You can go
> straight to aio_return. aio_error shouldn't hurt, but it isn't
> necessary.
According to kevent(2) calling kevent can return errors on the called
aio_calls.
It then returns with EV_ERROR in flags, and errno is stored in the
event.data.
But what would be going on when the event's flag contains EV_ERROR but
event's data is still 0???
the udata field still seems to point to the aio data that was passed
into the aio block when calling aio_read().
Should I ignore this as a non-error?
--WjW
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From: Alan Somers <asomers@freebsd.org>
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 19:23:43 -0700
Message-ID: <CAOtMX2ics595SQTDR=ORF8YCTOgm9JSk-Nv1T89O6iCOp5O4fg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Using kqueue with aio_read/write
To: Willem Jan Withagen <wjw@digiware.nl>
Cc: FreeBSD Hackers <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
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On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 6:56 PM Willem Jan Withagen <wjw@digiware.nl> wrote:
>
> On 28/12/2018 02:47, Alan Somers wrote:
> > On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 6:15 PM Willem Jan Withagen <wjw@digiware.nl> wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> Im trying to understand why I cannot get so code to work.
> >> This is the smallest extract I can make to show my problem.
> >>
> >> I would expect the kevent() call to return every timeo tick.
> >> Even if I tell it NOT to time-out I get these spurts of errors
> >>
> >> Since there is nothing to trigger the AIO-event, I would expect kqueue
> >> to hold indefinitly.
> >>
> >> But it does not generate anything other than errors
> >> And instead it repeatedly complains that there is a permission error:
> >> get_events_kevent: EV_Error(1) kevent(): Operation not permitted
> >>
> >> But I'm not getting where that would the case...
> >>
> >> Surely a pilot error, but I do overlook it al the time.
> >> So suggestions are welcome.
> >>
> >> Thanx,
> >> --WjW
> >>
> >> #include <aio.h>
> >> #include <errno.h>
> >> #include <fcntl.h>
> >> #include <stdio.h>
> >> #include <stdlib.h>
> >> #include <string.h>
> >> #include <sys/stat.h>
> >> #include <sys/event.h>
> >> #include <unistd.h>
> >>
> >> #define BUFFER_SIZE 512
> >> #define MAX_EVENTS 32
> >>
> >> #define FILENAME "/tmp/aio_test"
> >> char filename[256];
> >> int fd;
> >> int done = 0;
> >>
> >> void get_events_kevent(int fd, int kq)
> >> {
> >> printf("get_events function fd = %d, kq = %d\n", fd, kq);
> >> int i = 0, errcnt = 0, err, ret, reterr, rev;
> >> int search = 1;
> >>
> >> int timeout_ms = 10;
> >> struct timespec timeo = {
> >> timeout_ms / 1000,
> >> (timeout_ms % 1000) * 1000 * 1000
> >> };
> >> struct kevent filter[16];
> >> struct kevent changed[16];
> >>
> >> EV_SET(&filter[0], fd, EVFILT_AIO,
> >> EV_ADD,
> >> 0, 0, 0 );
> >
> > This is the first problem. There's no need to explicitly set
> > EVFILT_AIO on the kqueue. It gets set by the aio_read(2) or similar
> > syscall. And this invocation wouldn't be correct anyway, because for
> > AIO the ident field refers to the address of the struct aiocb, not the
> > file descriptor. If the only events you care about are AIO, then you
> > can pass NULL as the filter argument to kevent. I suspect this is the
> > cause of your problem. The kernel probably thinks you're trying to
> > register for an aiocb that's outside of your address space or
> > something like that.
> >
> >
> >> while (!done) {
> >> printf("+");
> >> rev = kevent(kq, filter, 1, changed, 16, 0); //&timeo);
> >> if (rev < 0) {
> >> perror("kevent error");
> >> } else if (rev == 0) {
> >> printf("T");
> >> } else {
> >> printf("rev(%d)\n", rev);
> >> if (changed[0].flags == EV_ERROR) {
> >> errno = changed[0].data;
> >> printf( "%s: EV_Error(%d) kevent(): %s\n", __func__, errno,
> >> strerror(errno));
> >> memset(&changed[0], 0, sizeof(struct kevent));
> >> } else {
> >> err = aio_error((struct aiocb*)changed[0].udata);
> >
> > No need to call aio_error(2) after kevent(2) returns. You can go
> > straight to aio_return. aio_error shouldn't hurt, but it isn't
> > necessary.
>
> According to kevent(2) calling kevent can return errors on the called
> aio_calls.
> It then returns with EV_ERROR in flags, and errno is stored in the
> event.data.
>
> But what would be going on when the event's flag contains EV_ERROR but
> event's data is still 0???
>
> the udata field still seems to point to the aio data that was passed
> into the aio block when calling aio_read().
>
> Should I ignore this as a non-error?
>
> --WjW
Are you sure you bzero()ed your aiocb before initializing it? Any
stack garbage that was present in its
aio_sigevent.sigev_notify_kevent_flags field will be dutifully copied
into the returned kevent. And in any case, the definitive way to get
the final status of a completed aio operation is with aio_return.
-Alan
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From: Charlie Li <ml@vishwin.info>
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
References: <20190101045638.D280E1F56@spqr.komquats.com>
<a2d04773-c7cc-457d-4db6-913cb84e885b@metricspace.net>
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From: Charlie Li <ml@vishwin.info>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Message-ID: <ec3faa51-9cbd-a7dd-cdd5-c370ce70d0d6@vishwin.info>
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
References: <20190101045638.D280E1F56@spqr.komquats.com>
<a2d04773-c7cc-457d-4db6-913cb84e885b@metricspace.net>
<CADWvR2izXwGRwkWn52x6s3U73ki5Qdg98Y-00use=G9febhrGA@mail.gmail.com>
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On 01/01/2019 19:35, Conrad Meyer wrote:
> The binary sizes are interesting:
>=20
> -r-xr-xr-x 3 root wheel 113640 Nov 4 15:47 /usr/bin/grep*
> -r-xr-xr-x 1 root wheel 89104 Oct 28 14:24 /usr/local/bin/ag*
> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 4284416 Oct 29 05:12 /usr/local/bin/rg*
>=20
> All are dynamically linked and stripped amd64 binaries. Ripgrep
> (Rust) is 48x the binary size of ag and 37x that of grep(1). Like
> grep(1), 'ag' is written in C.
>=20
By default, the dynamic linking in rust binaries are limited to crt
unless a non-default flag is passed to rustc. Thus, this is effectively
static linking, albeit at an earlier stage like llvm-link(1). Rust is
not alone; golang is almost identical in this regard, by default.
ag also has next to no external dependencies at all, compared to
ripgrep's laundry list of crates it uses.
--=20
Charlie Li
Can't think of a witty .sigline today=E2=80=A6
(This email address is for mailing list use only; replace local-part
with vishwin for off-list communication)
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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From: Johannes Lundberg <johalun0@gmail.com>
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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 11:06:16 +0000
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On 1/2/19 12:35 AM, Conrad Meyer wrote:
> Hi Garance,
>
> On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 3:18 PM drosih <drosih@rpi.edu> wrote:
>> Brian's simple experiment is a simple experiment. It's interesting,
>> but hardly the definitive word in evaluating a language.
> Sure, that's fair enough. On the other hand, it matches every other
> report of the compiler and language I've heard, even from advocates of
> the language. Compiler performance was on the Rust roadmap for 2017
> (incremental rebuilds added during 2017) and 2018:
>
> https://blog.rust-lang.org/2017/02/06/roadmap.html
> https://blog.rust-lang.org/2018/03/12/roadmap.html
>
> In particular I think the Rust 2018 community survey (URL below) is
> informative. Scroll to the figure just above "Many non-users
> responded that they did want to learn Rust, but there were factors
> that slowed them down." Leading reasons for people who had used Rust
> but no longer did were: (1) Rust is too intimidating, too hard to
> learn, or too complicated; (3) Rust doesn't solve a problem for me;
> and (6) Switching to Rust would slow me down too much. One of the top
> 10 free-form comments for November 2018 is "improve compile times."
> It's still a problem.
>
> https://blog.rust-lang.org/2018/11/27/Rust-survey-2018.html
>
>> I thought the 'ripgrep' program seemed like an interesting one
>> to look at. Compare how fast it works to how fast our grep works.
> It's not a great comparison; our grep (either GNU grep 2.5.1 or
> BSDgrep) is just not very good and must conform to POSIX.
>
> 'ag' (pkg install the_silver_searcher) is a more interesting
> comparison, with similar ability to exclude files automatically. Both
> are source-code focused; by default, both .gitignore and similar files
> to exclude files and directories. Both share similar goals, probably
> inspired by 'ack' (which is slower than both): high real-world
> performance, threaded search, and fast, non-PCRE regular expressions
> by default.
>
> On the other hand, grep(1) must maintain POSIX compatibility, which
> makes for significantly slower defaults in many searches. This limits
> the impact of improving the performance of the internals on
> real-world, default-behavior search — because excluding files is a
> huge boon for ag/rg.
>
> In my experience, ripgrep is much faster than our grep, but pretty
> similar to 'ag'. Both have a comparable feature set; if anything, ag
> has more features IME.
>
> The binary sizes are interesting:
>
> -r-xr-xr-x 3 root wheel 113640 Nov 4 15:47 /usr/bin/grep*
> -r-xr-xr-x 1 root wheel 89104 Oct 28 14:24 /usr/local/bin/ag*
> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 4284416 Oct 29 05:12 /usr/local/bin/rg*
>
> All are dynamically linked and stripped amd64 binaries. Ripgrep
> (Rust) is 48x the binary size of ag and 37x that of grep(1). Like
> grep(1), 'ag' is written in C.
Hi
Rust by default statically link everything in executable binaries. This
is comparable to statically link in libc and all other dependencies in
your C program. You can have Rust programs link against shared rust
libraries (std, etc) and get the size down to basically same as C.
If Rust is used in base and everything is built at the same time, with
same version compiler, it would make sense to link dynamically I think.
Switching topic a bit. Just wanted to also add my contribution, a simple
sysctl Rust library https://github.com/johalun/sysctl-rs .
Cheers
>
> Of that 4 MB binary, 2805414 bytes of ripgrep are ".text". Other
> major contributors are .rodata, .eh_frame and .rela.dyn at 540kB,
> 300kB, and 240kB respectively.
>
> Of the 89 kB ag binary, 37 kB is ".text", 14kB is ".rodata," and 13kB
> is ".data". I think this difference is illustrative and reasonably
> representative.
>
> Best,
> Conrad
> _______________________________________________
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From: "Garance A Drosehn" <drosih@rpi.edu>
To: "Johannes Lundberg" <johalun0@gmail.com>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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On 2 Jan 2019, at 6:06, Johannes Lundberg wrote:
> On 1/2/19 12:35 AM, Conrad Meyer wrote:
>>
>> All are dynamically linked and stripped amd64 binaries. Ripgrep
>> (Rust) is 48x the binary size of ag and 37x that of grep(1). Like
>> grep(1), 'ag' is written in C.
>
> Rust by default statically link everything in executable binaries.
> This is comparable to statically link in libc and all other
> dependencies in your C program. You can have Rust programs link
> against shared rust libraries (std, etc) and get the size down
> to basically same as C.
>
> If Rust is used in base and everything is built at the same time,
> with same version compiler, it would make sense to link dynamically
> I think.
>
> Switching topic a bit. Just wanted to also add my contribution,
> a simple sysctl Rust library
> https://github.com/johalun/sysctl-rs .
Personally I think it's interesting and helpful to see some more
projects like this, so we can get a better understanding of how
well the language works for systems-level programs. I'm going to
take a look at this, just for my own curiosity. Thanks!
--
Garance Alistair Drosehn = drosih@rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer or gad@FreeBSD.org
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy, NY; USA
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From: "Garance A Drosehn" <drosih@rpi.edu>
To: "Conrad Meyer" <cem@freebsd.org>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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On 1 Jan 2019, at 19:35, Conrad Meyer wrote:
> Hi Garance,
>
> On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 3:18 PM drosih <drosih@rpi.edu> wrote:
>> Brian's simple experiment is a simple experiment. It's interesting,
>> but hardly the definitive word in evaluating a language.
>
> Sure, that's fair enough. On the other hand, it matches every other
> report of the compiler and language I've heard, even from advocates of
> the language. Compiler performance was on the Rust roadmap for 2017
> (incremental rebuilds added during 2017) and 2018:
>
> https://blog.rust-lang.org/2017/02/06/roadmap.html
> https://blog.rust-lang.org/2018/03/12/roadmap.html
>
> In particular I think the Rust 2018 community survey (URL below) is
> informative. Scroll to the figure just above "Many non-users
> responded that they did want to learn Rust, but there were factors
> that slowed them down." Leading reasons for people who had used Rust
> but no longer did were: (1) Rust is too intimidating, too hard to
> learn, or too complicated; (3) Rust doesn't solve a problem for me;
> and (6) Switching to Rust would slow me down too much. One of the top
> 10 free-form comments for November 2018 is "improve compile times."
> It's still a problem.
>
> https://blog.rust-lang.org/2018/11/27/Rust-survey-2018.html
There was a lot of good information in this message, including the
parts I have deleted just to keep this message reasonably short.
Thanks!
So my gut reaction to this is that it seems too early for the freebsd
project to make any significant commitment to rust. Some of us could
get more experience with it, and then maybe we could reconsider it
in a year or two. It's frustrating that these things take so much
time to evaluate, but that's just the way it is. It takes a lot of
work (and thus a lot of time) for a new language to catch up with
all the time which has been put into compilers for established
languages.
I've also found some of the videos for explaining Rust to be rather
intimidating, even when done by developers in the Rust community.
But I do think it's trying a lot of interesting new ideas for a
systems-programming language, and thus I hope to gain some more
experience with it for myself. Now I just need to find some copious
spare time that I can devote to that!
--
Garance Alistair Drosehn = drosih@rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer or gad@FreeBSD.org
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy, NY; USA
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From: Alexander Leidinger <Alexander@leidinger.net>
To: Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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Quoting Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net> (from Sun, 30 Dec 2018=20=20
21:18:33=20-0500):
> Before I begin, I want to be clear that everything here is in the realm
> of speculative, long-term discussion. My goal is to start a
> conversation, not to propose anything concrete right now.
>
>
>
> I've talked at several conferences about the possibility of bringing the
> Rust programming language into the base system, with the intent of
> making it a viable implementation language for parts of the base system.
> I believe the potential security and stability benefits of doing this
> are *substantial*. This would obviously be a serious undertaking, but I
> think the benefits are worth the cost. For the rest of this mail, I'll
> outline my position and present the important facts that support it.
After reading this thread I see several issues here. The suggestion from
me here is to remove excuses.
The issues I see (no particular order, and you can replace "rust" by
anything which may or may not be better suited for the task):
- chicken and egg problem (solution: make it possible to use it easily,
e.g. bsd.rust.mk (name doesn't matter) as a port to try it, wiki page
to explain how to make it possible + HOWTOs regarding where and how to
use it (library/program/kernel module/...), links to code examples)
- if all what you know is a hammer, then every problem looks like a nail
(a lot of people seem to talk about things they have never seen...
me included, solution: links to examples / snippets of how what we do
currently can be done better with rust and descriptions about what rust
is doing for people which learned C 20 years ago and never looked at
something else and are not "language nerds")
- performance matters, at the same time it doesn't if we want safe code
(we don't talk about replacing everything with rust, time critical
parts can stay in C, new items may benefit from rust... solution: show
how to get (enough) speed, show how to reduce size (e.g. name this
non-standard compiler option instead of having people talking about
one), show that you get more (safety) with less (code)... this is
overlapping with the previous item)
You will not get a endorsement here, you will not get an approval here,
and you should ignore people which talk down the benefits. If you believe
in your opinion you need to remove excuses. Make a little item list of
what is needed. Make it public (e.g. in the wiki). Start with providing
possibilities. Mention what you have (When you have at least something)
in the periodic status reports, get some people to join to try it,
provide some interesting additions or replacements to let people evaluate
it.
Bye,
Alexander.
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
To: Garance A Drosehn <drosih@rpi.edu>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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From: Johannes Lundberg <johalun0@gmail.com>
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On 1/2/19 11:28 AM, Garance A Drosehn wrote:
> On 2 Jan 2019, at 6:06, Johannes Lundberg wrote:
>
>> On 1/2/19 12:35 AM, Conrad Meyer wrote:
>>> All are dynamically linked and stripped amd64 binaries. Ripgrep
>>> (Rust) is 48x the binary size of ag and 37x that of grep(1). Like
>>> grep(1), 'ag' is written in C.
>> Rust by default statically link everything in executable binaries.
>> This is comparable to statically link in libc and all other
>> dependencies in your C program. You can have Rust programs link
>> against shared rust libraries (std, etc) and get the size down
>> to basically same as C.
>>
>> If Rust is used in base and everything is built at the same time,
>> with same version compiler, it would make sense to link dynamically
>> I think.
>>
>> Switching topic a bit. Just wanted to also add my contribution,
>> a simple sysctl Rust library
>> https://github.com/johalun/sysctl-rs .
> Personally I think it's interesting and helpful to see some more
> projects like this, so we can get a better understanding of how
> well the language works for systems-level programs. I'm going to
> take a look at this, just for my own curiosity. Thanks!
>
You're welcome! Oh, I forgot my most recent tool:
https://github.com/johalun/pperf
It's similar to iperf and useful for simulating many clients making
short connections to ranges of IP addresses. The source code is
ridiculously short and simple, showing how powerful Rust is when writing
(safe and bug free) multi-threaded programs (of course with the use of
some 3rd party crates).
From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Wed Jan 2 12:53:09 2019
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On 02/01/2019 03:23, Alan Somers wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 6:56 PM Willem Jan Withagen <wjw@digiware.nl> wrote:
>> On 28/12/2018 02:47, Alan Somers wrote:
>>> On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 6:15 PM Willem Jan Withagen <wjw@digiware.nl> wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> Im trying to understand why I cannot get so code to work.
>>>> This is the smallest extract I can make to show my problem.
>>>>
>>>> I would expect the kevent() call to return every timeo tick.
>>>> Even if I tell it NOT to time-out I get these spurts of errors
>>>>
>>>> Since there is nothing to trigger the AIO-event, I would expect kqueue
>>>> to hold indefinitly.
>>>>
>>>> But it does not generate anything other than errors
>>>> And instead it repeatedly complains that there is a permission error:
>>>> get_events_kevent: EV_Error(1) kevent(): Operation not permitted
>>>>
>>>> But I'm not getting where that would the case...
>>>>
>>>> Surely a pilot error, but I do overlook it al the time.
>>>> So suggestions are welcome.
>>>>
>>>> Thanx,
>>>> --WjW
>>>>
>>>> #include <aio.h>
>>>> #include <errno.h>
>>>> #include <fcntl.h>
>>>> #include <stdio.h>
>>>> #include <stdlib.h>
>>>> #include <string.h>
>>>> #include <sys/stat.h>
>>>> #include <sys/event.h>
>>>> #include <unistd.h>
>>>>
>>>> #define BUFFER_SIZE 512
>>>> #define MAX_EVENTS 32
>>>>
>>>> #define FILENAME "/tmp/aio_test"
>>>> char filename[256];
>>>> int fd;
>>>> int done = 0;
>>>>
>>>> void get_events_kevent(int fd, int kq)
>>>> {
>>>> printf("get_events function fd = %d, kq = %d\n", fd, kq);
>>>> int i = 0, errcnt = 0, err, ret, reterr, rev;
>>>> int search = 1;
>>>>
>>>> int timeout_ms = 10;
>>>> struct timespec timeo = {
>>>> timeout_ms / 1000,
>>>> (timeout_ms % 1000) * 1000 * 1000
>>>> };
>>>> struct kevent filter[16];
>>>> struct kevent changed[16];
>>>>
>>>> EV_SET(&filter[0], fd, EVFILT_AIO,
>>>> EV_ADD,
>>>> 0, 0, 0 );
>>> This is the first problem. There's no need to explicitly set
>>> EVFILT_AIO on the kqueue. It gets set by the aio_read(2) or similar
>>> syscall. And this invocation wouldn't be correct anyway, because for
>>> AIO the ident field refers to the address of the struct aiocb, not the
>>> file descriptor. If the only events you care about are AIO, then you
>>> can pass NULL as the filter argument to kevent. I suspect this is the
>>> cause of your problem. The kernel probably thinks you're trying to
>>> register for an aiocb that's outside of your address space or
>>> something like that.
>>>
>>>
>>>> while (!done) {
>>>> printf("+");
>>>> rev = kevent(kq, filter, 1, changed, 16, 0); //&timeo);
>>>> if (rev < 0) {
>>>> perror("kevent error");
>>>> } else if (rev == 0) {
>>>> printf("T");
>>>> } else {
>>>> printf("rev(%d)\n", rev);
>>>> if (changed[0].flags == EV_ERROR) {
>>>> errno = changed[0].data;
>>>> printf( "%s: EV_Error(%d) kevent(): %s\n", __func__, errno,
>>>> strerror(errno));
>>>> memset(&changed[0], 0, sizeof(struct kevent));
>>>> } else {
>>>> err = aio_error((struct aiocb*)changed[0].udata);
>>> No need to call aio_error(2) after kevent(2) returns. You can go
>>> straight to aio_return. aio_error shouldn't hurt, but it isn't
>>> necessary.
>> According to kevent(2) calling kevent can return errors on the called
>> aio_calls.
>> It then returns with EV_ERROR in flags, and errno is stored in the
>> event.data.
>>
>> But what would be going on when the event's flag contains EV_ERROR but
>> event's data is still 0???
>>
>> the udata field still seems to point to the aio data that was passed
>> into the aio block when calling aio_read().
>>
>> Should I ignore this as a non-error?
>>
>> --WjW
> Are you sure you bzero()ed your aiocb before initializing it? Any
> stack garbage that was present in its
> aio_sigevent.sigev_notify_kevent_flags field will be dutifully copied
> into the returned kevent. And in any case, the definitive way to get
> the final status of a completed aio operation is with aio_return.
That seems to help in getting things clear...
  -13> 2019-01-02 13:32:31.834 dc15a80 1 bdev:327 paio
get_next_completed processing event i = 0 aio_return(22) (22) Invalid
argument
Disadvantage is that it is not clear yet which of the many arguments
that is?
--WjW
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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>> <snip>
>>
>> Brian's simple experiment [1] demonstrates that "zero-cost" is
>> more of an aspiration (and a very long term one, perhaps) than
>> a hard fact ;-)
>
> Brian's simple experiment is a simple experiment. It's interesting,
> but hardly the definitive word in evaluating a language. We need
> more real-world experience with serious programs before dismissing
wrong. you have to PROVE it's useful, not prove it's not useful.
From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Wed Jan 2 15:00:15 2019
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From: Alan Somers <asomers@freebsd.org>
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 07:59:55 -0700
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Subject: Re: Using kqueue with aio_read/write
To: Willem Jan Withagen <wjw@digiware.nl>
Cc: FreeBSD Hackers <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
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On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 5:53 AM Willem Jan Withagen <wjw@digiware.nl> wrote:
>
> On 02/01/2019 03:23, Alan Somers wrote:
> > On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 6:56 PM Willem Jan Withagen <wjw@digiware.nl> wrote:
> >> On 28/12/2018 02:47, Alan Somers wrote:
> >>> On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 6:15 PM Willem Jan Withagen <wjw@digiware.nl> wrote:
> >>>> Hi,
> >>>>
> >>>> Im trying to understand why I cannot get so code to work.
> >>>> This is the smallest extract I can make to show my problem.
> >>>>
> >>>> I would expect the kevent() call to return every timeo tick.
> >>>> Even if I tell it NOT to time-out I get these spurts of errors
> >>>>
> >>>> Since there is nothing to trigger the AIO-event, I would expect kqueue
> >>>> to hold indefinitly.
> >>>>
> >>>> But it does not generate anything other than errors
> >>>> And instead it repeatedly complains that there is a permission error:
> >>>> get_events_kevent: EV_Error(1) kevent(): Operation not permitted
> >>>>
> >>>> But I'm not getting where that would the case...
> >>>>
> >>>> Surely a pilot error, but I do overlook it al the time.
> >>>> So suggestions are welcome.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanx,
> >>>> --WjW
> >>>>
> >>>> #include <aio.h>
> >>>> #include <errno.h>
> >>>> #include <fcntl.h>
> >>>> #include <stdio.h>
> >>>> #include <stdlib.h>
> >>>> #include <string.h>
> >>>> #include <sys/stat.h>
> >>>> #include <sys/event.h>
> >>>> #include <unistd.h>
> >>>>
> >>>> #define BUFFER_SIZE 512
> >>>> #define MAX_EVENTS 32
> >>>>
> >>>> #define FILENAME "/tmp/aio_test"
> >>>> char filename[256];
> >>>> int fd;
> >>>> int done = 0;
> >>>>
> >>>> void get_events_kevent(int fd, int kq)
> >>>> {
> >>>> printf("get_events function fd = %d, kq = %d\n", fd, kq);
> >>>> int i = 0, errcnt = 0, err, ret, reterr, rev;
> >>>> int search = 1;
> >>>>
> >>>> int timeout_ms = 10;
> >>>> struct timespec timeo = {
> >>>> timeout_ms / 1000,
> >>>> (timeout_ms % 1000) * 1000 * 1000
> >>>> };
> >>>> struct kevent filter[16];
> >>>> struct kevent changed[16];
> >>>>
> >>>> EV_SET(&filter[0], fd, EVFILT_AIO,
> >>>> EV_ADD,
> >>>> 0, 0, 0 );
> >>> This is the first problem. There's no need to explicitly set
> >>> EVFILT_AIO on the kqueue. It gets set by the aio_read(2) or similar
> >>> syscall. And this invocation wouldn't be correct anyway, because for
> >>> AIO the ident field refers to the address of the struct aiocb, not the
> >>> file descriptor. If the only events you care about are AIO, then you
> >>> can pass NULL as the filter argument to kevent. I suspect this is the
> >>> cause of your problem. The kernel probably thinks you're trying to
> >>> register for an aiocb that's outside of your address space or
> >>> something like that.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> while (!done) {
> >>>> printf("+");
> >>>> rev = kevent(kq, filter, 1, changed, 16, 0); //&timeo);
> >>>> if (rev < 0) {
> >>>> perror("kevent error");
> >>>> } else if (rev == 0) {
> >>>> printf("T");
> >>>> } else {
> >>>> printf("rev(%d)\n", rev);
> >>>> if (changed[0].flags == EV_ERROR) {
> >>>> errno = changed[0].data;
> >>>> printf( "%s: EV_Error(%d) kevent(): %s\n", __func__, errno,
> >>>> strerror(errno));
> >>>> memset(&changed[0], 0, sizeof(struct kevent));
> >>>> } else {
> >>>> err = aio_error((struct aiocb*)changed[0].udata);
> >>> No need to call aio_error(2) after kevent(2) returns. You can go
> >>> straight to aio_return. aio_error shouldn't hurt, but it isn't
> >>> necessary.
> >> According to kevent(2) calling kevent can return errors on the called
> >> aio_calls.
> >> It then returns with EV_ERROR in flags, and errno is stored in the
> >> event.data.
> >>
> >> But what would be going on when the event's flag contains EV_ERROR but
> >> event's data is still 0???
> >>
> >> the udata field still seems to point to the aio data that was passed
> >> into the aio block when calling aio_read().
> >>
> >> Should I ignore this as a non-error?
> >>
> >> --WjW
> > Are you sure you bzero()ed your aiocb before initializing it? Any
> > stack garbage that was present in its
> > aio_sigevent.sigev_notify_kevent_flags field will be dutifully copied
> > into the returned kevent. And in any case, the definitive way to get
> > the final status of a completed aio operation is with aio_return.
> That seems to help in getting things clear...
>
> -13> 2019-01-02 13:32:31.834 dc15a80 1 bdev:327 paio
> get_next_completed processing event i = 0 aio_return(22) (22) Invalid
> argument
>
> Disadvantage is that it is not clear yet which of the many arguments
> that is?
>
> --WjW
It could be failing for any reason that read(2) can fail. Or, the
iocb might not be complete. aio_error(2) would tell you. One common
problem is if you allocate the iocb on the stack and accidentally move
it after calling aio_read(). That's bitten me before.
-Alan
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From: "Garance A Drosehn" <drosih@rpi.edu>
To: "Wojciech Puchar" <wojtek@puchar.net>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2019 10:22:25 -0500
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On 2 Jan 2019, at 8:54, Wojciech Puchar wrote:
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>> Brian's simple experiment [1] demonstrates that "zero-cost" is
>>> more of an aspiration (and a very long term one, perhaps) than
>>> a hard fact ;-)
>>
>> Brian's simple experiment is a simple experiment. It's interesting,
>> but hardly the definitive word in evaluating a language. We need
>> more real-world experience with serious programs before dismissing
>
> wrong. you have to PROVE it's useful, not prove it's not useful.
Please read the rest of my replies before getting yourself worked
up over whatever it is that you think I am trying to prove.
Note that I'm having some trouble with my email client over the
last few days, so read all emails (no matter how oddly formatted)
which are by either gad@FreeBSD.org or 'drosih@rpi.edu' (even if
it doesn't include my first name in it).
If you read them all, you'll hopefully realize that I am not
trying to force anyone to do any specific thing, and thus I don't
have to prove much of anything.
--
Garance Alistair Drosehn = drosih@rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer or gad@FreeBSD.org
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy, NY; USA
From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Wed Jan 2 14:19:43 2019
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From: Matt Churchyard <matt.churchyard@userve.net>
To: "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: FreeBSD 12 log formats
Thread-Topic: FreeBSD 12 log formats
Thread-Index: AdSipZEJZ1EIppz+QAmQWArpuWdTqQ==
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 14:19:33 +0000
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Hello,
I asked this question on the freebsd-questions mailing list but didn't get =
any response.
I (and other users) have noticed that log messages have started appearing i=
n a different format in FreeBSD 12 (although in my case only on one system,=
and some logs are still the original format...).
For me this caused issues with automated log parsers.
It appears this is related to work for rfc5424 support, but as far as I can=
see from the commit messages, this shouldn't be enabled without updating t=
he flags for syslog?
Jan 2 12:04:13 ftp 1 2019-01-02T12:04:13.584377+00:00 ftp.full.hostname pk=
g 5522 - - php72-hash-7.2.13 installed
"For people interested in using this, this feature can be enabled by
adding the following line to /etc/rc.conf:
syslogd_flags=3D"-s -O rfc5424"
"
Regards,
Matt Churchyard
From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Wed Jan 2 16:37:36 2019
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Subject: Re: Using kqueue with aio_read/write
To: Alan Somers <asomers@freebsd.org>
Cc: FreeBSD Hackers <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
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From: Willem Jan Withagen <wjw@digiware.nl>
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On 02/01/2019 15:59, Alan Somers wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 5:53 AM Willem Jan Withagen <wjw@digiware.nl> wrote:
>> On 02/01/2019 03:23, Alan Somers wrote:
>>> On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 6:56 PM Willem Jan Withagen <wjw@digiware.nl> wrote:
>>>> On 28/12/2018 02:47, Alan Somers wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 6:15 PM Willem Jan Withagen <wjw@digiware.nl> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Im trying to understand why I cannot get so code to work.
>>>>>> This is the smallest extract I can make to show my problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would expect the kevent() call to return every timeo tick.
>>>>>> Even if I tell it NOT to time-out I get these spurts of errors
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since there is nothing to trigger the AIO-event, I would expect kqueue
>>>>>> to hold indefinitly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But it does not generate anything other than errors
>>>>>> And instead it repeatedly complains that there is a permission error:
>>>>>> get_events_kevent: EV_Error(1) kevent(): Operation not permitted
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But I'm not getting where that would the case...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Surely a pilot error, but I do overlook it al the time.
>>>>>> So suggestions are welcome.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanx,
>>>>>> --WjW
>>>>>>
>>>>>> #include <aio.h>
>>>>>> #include <errno.h>
>>>>>> #include <fcntl.h>
>>>>>> #include <stdio.h>
>>>>>> #include <stdlib.h>
>>>>>> #include <string.h>
>>>>>> #include <sys/stat.h>
>>>>>> #include <sys/event.h>
>>>>>> #include <unistd.h>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> #define BUFFER_SIZE 512
>>>>>> #define MAX_EVENTS 32
>>>>>>
>>>>>> #define FILENAME "/tmp/aio_test"
>>>>>> char filename[256];
>>>>>> int fd;
>>>>>> int done = 0;
>>>>>>
>>>>>> void get_events_kevent(int fd, int kq)
>>>>>> {
>>>>>> printf("get_events function fd = %d, kq = %d\n", fd, kq);
>>>>>> int i = 0, errcnt = 0, err, ret, reterr, rev;
>>>>>> int search = 1;
>>>>>>
>>>>>> int timeout_ms = 10;
>>>>>> struct timespec timeo = {
>>>>>> timeout_ms / 1000,
>>>>>> (timeout_ms % 1000) * 1000 * 1000
>>>>>> };
>>>>>> struct kevent filter[16];
>>>>>> struct kevent changed[16];
>>>>>>
>>>>>> EV_SET(&filter[0], fd, EVFILT_AIO,
>>>>>> EV_ADD,
>>>>>> 0, 0, 0 );
>>>>> This is the first problem. There's no need to explicitly set
>>>>> EVFILT_AIO on the kqueue. It gets set by the aio_read(2) or similar
>>>>> syscall. And this invocation wouldn't be correct anyway, because for
>>>>> AIO the ident field refers to the address of the struct aiocb, not the
>>>>> file descriptor. If the only events you care about are AIO, then you
>>>>> can pass NULL as the filter argument to kevent. I suspect this is the
>>>>> cause of your problem. The kernel probably thinks you're trying to
>>>>> register for an aiocb that's outside of your address space or
>>>>> something like that.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> while (!done) {
>>>>>> printf("+");
>>>>>> rev = kevent(kq, filter, 1, changed, 16, 0); //&timeo);
>>>>>> if (rev < 0) {
>>>>>> perror("kevent error");
>>>>>> } else if (rev == 0) {
>>>>>> printf("T");
>>>>>> } else {
>>>>>> printf("rev(%d)\n", rev);
>>>>>> if (changed[0].flags == EV_ERROR) {
>>>>>> errno = changed[0].data;
>>>>>> printf( "%s: EV_Error(%d) kevent(): %s\n", __func__, errno,
>>>>>> strerror(errno));
>>>>>> memset(&changed[0], 0, sizeof(struct kevent));
>>>>>> } else {
>>>>>> err = aio_error((struct aiocb*)changed[0].udata);
>>>>> No need to call aio_error(2) after kevent(2) returns. You can go
>>>>> straight to aio_return. aio_error shouldn't hurt, but it isn't
>>>>> necessary.
>>>> According to kevent(2) calling kevent can return errors on the called
>>>> aio_calls.
>>>> It then returns with EV_ERROR in flags, and errno is stored in the
>>>> event.data.
>>>>
>>>> But what would be going on when the event's flag contains EV_ERROR but
>>>> event's data is still 0???
>>>>
>>>> the udata field still seems to point to the aio data that was passed
>>>> into the aio block when calling aio_read().
>>>>
>>>> Should I ignore this as a non-error?
>>>>
>>>> --WjW
>>> Are you sure you bzero()ed your aiocb before initializing it? Any
>>> stack garbage that was present in its
>>> aio_sigevent.sigev_notify_kevent_flags field will be dutifully copied
>>> into the returned kevent. And in any case, the definitive way to get
>>> the final status of a completed aio operation is with aio_return.
>> That seems to help in getting things clear...
>>
>> -13> 2019-01-02 13:32:31.834 dc15a80 1 bdev:327 paio
>> get_next_completed processing event i = 0 aio_return(22) (22) Invalid
>> argument
>>
>> Disadvantage is that it is not clear yet which of the many arguments
>> that is?
>>
>> --WjW
> It could be failing for any reason that read(2) can fail. Or, the
> iocb might not be complete. aio_error(2) would tell you. One common
> problem is if you allocate the iocb on the stack and accidentally move
> it after calling aio_read(). That's bitten me before.
Well the main part that is biting here, is that it sort of has to be
compatible with what
Sage ea. have cooked up to manage the iov/iocb/aiocb stuff.
And I need to do it with keeping the Linux code working as well.
And the real mess was to sort out get the correct pointer into the
aio_write() and
find it back in get_next_event() to finish that.
But it looks like I've sorted that part now. Get_next_event() actually
now finds the
correct aiocb. and I can aio_return() without errors.
Now the next trick is going to take it of the list off outstanding aio's
in the ceph-list.
That still asserts somewhere.
But slowly getting there. Just running my head into a wall at some times.
--WjW
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To: Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net>
cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
In-Reply-To: Message from Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net> of "Tue,
01 Jan 2019 10:50:28 -0500."
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In message <a2d04773-c7cc-457d-4db6-913cb84e885b@metricspace.net>, Eric
McCorkl
e writes:
> This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
> --tu7wwqLaLNvV59iK66RVuCN4u9LNuo2ra
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> protected-headers="v1"
> From: Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net>
> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
> Message-ID: <a2d04773-c7cc-457d-4db6-913cb84e885b@metricspace.net>
> Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
> References: <20190101045638.D280E1F56@spqr.komquats.com>
> In-Reply-To: <20190101045638.D280E1F56@spqr.komquats.com>
>
> --40zQJvQINjrS8i7U0w9C4z0duC53dUJgc
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> Content-Language: en-US
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> On 12/31/18 11:56 PM, Cy Schubert wrote:
> > What would having another language in base buy us? This reminds me of a=
> couple of months ago at OpenHack Victoria someone was trying to convince=
> me that the kernel needed a JavaVM. (Sure we each had a few beers) but t=
> he similarity of this discussion doesn't escape me. Kernel modules and fu=
> nctions written in java^H^H^H^H rust: why?
>
> I don't think that's a fair comparison at all. Rust is a systems
> language built around zero-cost abstractions that is usable for
> developing real embedded code. Java is a completely different animal,
> and there is no reasonable case for a Java VM in the kernel/loader.
What is the proposal then? Just to have another language in base? If
it's just that, wouldn't the port suffice?
>
> I'm all for discussion and criticism of this, that's why I posted it,
> but I don't think these kinds of false equivalences are helpful.
Actually it is helpful. Without a solid proposal of a new feature or
userland utility to be imported into base that requires the support of
a language not already in base, the implication of the original email
starting this thread was to rewrite FreeBSD using rust. There is
equivalence as the argument that evening was, "there are more Java
developers than C developers and replacing C with Java would benefit by
adding to the pool of possible contributors."
In reality we should rely more on ports. Over the years this business
has become more fragmented. Each year we see new languages being
developed and used. Importing new shiny objects into base is
unsustainable. IMO the momentum is behind containerization,
specifically kubernetes and docker-like containers. That is today. The
next year or two will introduce new technologies and shiny objects
which we will likely need to introduce here to remain relevant. We
should be looking to reduce the footprint of base, introduce new
technologies in ports (ports are much easier to build from scratch,
maintain, and update than base). Additionally the idea of meta-ports
that install groups of packages would make building purpose-built
systems a breeze for our user base, similar to what anaconda does, like
a FreeBSD based LAMP (FAMP) stack package that installs all the
necessary bits with one pkg install command.
In summary we should pair down base and use ports to our advantage.
Unless the proposal is to add some feature written in rust that cannot
live in ports or if the proposal is to rewrite FreeBSD into rust (which
I vehemently disagree with), there is no reason to consider adding rust
to base.
--
Cheers,
Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
FreeBSD UNIX: <cy@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org
The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
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Subject: Code questions tied to a qemu-aarch64-static hang-up that I observe
during a amd64->aarch64 poudriere-devel based bulk cross-build of some ports
Message-Id: <BFD0D25C-42D6-47EF-8F31-1B313904305D@yahoo.com>
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The following code is from where I see a hang-up in qemu-aarch64-static:
/* select(2) */
static inline abi_long do_freebsd_select(CPUArchState *env, int n,
abi_ulong rfd_addr, abi_ulong wfd_addr, abi_ulong efd_addr,
abi_ulong target_tv_addr)
{
. . . (omitted material . . .
sigfillset(&mask);
sigprocmask(SIG_BLOCK, &mask, &omask);
if (ts->signal_pending) {
. . . (omitted) . . .
} else {
ret =3D get_errno(pselect(n, rfds_ptr, wfds_ptr, efds_ptr, =
ts_ptr,
&omask));
sigprocmask(SIG_SETMASK, &omask, NULL);
}
So more directly for the path taken:, with some comments added that are
tied to my question:
// signals might not be blocked here
sigfillset(&mask);
sigprocmask(SIG_BLOCK, &mask, &omask);
// so signals are blocked
// but the below reneables them during waitin in pselect
// (if they were not blocked before the sigprocmask call).
ret =3D get_errno(pselect(n, rfds_ptr, wfds_ptr, efds_ptr, ts_ptr,
&omask));
// signals are again blocked during parts of pselect
// and here after returning.
sigprocmask(SIG_SETMASK, &omask, NULL);
// signals are no longer blocked
Question
Is there a reason for this code structure to be used? If so, what is it?
I've another qeuestion based on what gdb reports and man pages
say. (I extracted material from records of multiple gdb sessions.)
(gdb) bt
#0 _pselect () at _pselect.S:3
#1 0x00000000601da57f in __thr_pselect (count=3D12, =
rfds=3D0x7ffffffe3650, wfds=3D0x0, efds=3D0x0, timo=3D0x0, =
mask=3D0x7ffffffe3600) at /usr/src/lib/libthr/thread/thr_syscalls.c:378
#2 0x000000006004928d in do_freebsd_select (env=3D0x860edfb18, =
n=3D<optimized out>, rfd_addr=3D140736934698744, wfd_addr=3D<optimized =
out>, efd_addr=3D0, target_tv_addr=3D0)
at =
/wrkdirs/usr/ports/emulators/qemu-user-static/work/qemu-bsd-user-4ef7d07/b=
sd-user/freebsd/os-time.h:468
#3 do_freebsd_syscall (cpu_env=3D0x860edfb18, num=3D93, arg1=3D12, =
arg2=3D140736934698744, arg3=3D0, arg4=3D0, arg5=3D0, arg6=3D274914043516,=
arg7=3D274913946564, arg8=3D6579811)
at =
/wrkdirs/usr/ports/emulators/qemu-user-static/work/qemu-bsd-user-4ef7d07/b=
sd-user/syscall.c:1106
#4 0x000000006003903c in target_cpu_loop (env=3D0x860edfb18) at =
/wrkdirs/usr/ports/emulators/qemu-user-static/work/qemu-bsd-user-4ef7d07/b=
sd-user/aarch64/target_arch_cpu.h:100
#5 0x0000000060038e09 in cpu_loop (env=3D0xc) at =
/wrkdirs/usr/ports/emulators/qemu-user-static/work/qemu-bsd-user-4ef7d07/b=
sd-user/main.c:121
#6 0x0000000060039ecb in main (argc=3D<optimized out>, =
argv=3D0x7fffffffd360) at =
/wrkdirs/usr/ports/emulators/qemu-user-static/work/qemu-bsd-user-4ef7d07/b=
sd-user/main.c:513
Note the use of __thr_pselect . But I see in gdb's disass:
0x00000000600490ab <+33227>: callq 0x602b3b20 <sigprocmask>
0x00000000600490b0 <+33232>: cmpl $0x0,0x19440(%r12)
0x00000000600490b9 <+33241>: je 0x60049262 =
<do_freebsd_syscall+33666>
. . .
0x0000000060049262 <+33666>: mov -0x2f8(%rbp),%rsi
0x0000000060049269 <+33673>: mov -0x2f0(%rbp),%rdx
0x0000000060049270 <+33680>: mov -0x2e8(%rbp),%rcx
0x0000000060049277 <+33687>: lea -0x2e0(%rbp),%r9
0x000000006004927e <+33694>: mov -0x2b8(%rbp),%rdi
0x0000000060049285 <+33701>: mov %r14,%r8
0x0000000060049288 <+33704>: callq 0x601e1cb0 <pselect>
Yet:=20
=
https://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=3Dsigprocmask&apropos=3D0&sektio=
n=3D2&manpath=3DFreeBSD+13-current&arch=3Ddefault&format=3Dhtml
reports the following:
QUOTE
In threaded applications, pthread_sigmask(3) must be used instead of =
sigprocmask().
END QUOTE
But gdb shows use of 2 threads overall:
(gdb) info threads
Id Target Id Frame=20
* 1 LWP 100804 of process 89695 _pselect () at _pselect.S:3
2 LWP 101548 of process 89695 _umtx_op_err () at =
/usr/src/lib/libthr/arch/amd64/amd64/_umtx_op_err.S:37
So is the apparent use of sigprocmask valid in this context?
For reference for where the hang-up happens for:
configure:6844: checking whether // is distinct from /
The result is:
root 87913 0.0 0.0 12920 3668 0 I 13:29 0:00.06 | =
| `-- sh: poudriere[FBSDFSSDjailCortexA57-default][01]: =
build_pkg (texinfo-6.5_1,1) (sh)
root 88869 0.0 0.0 12920 3660 0 I 13:29 0:00.00 | =
| `-- sh: poudriere[FBSDFSSDjailCortexA57-default][01]: =
build_pkg (texinfo-6.5_1,1) (sh)
root 88870 0.0 0.0 10412 1848 0 IJ 13:29 0:00.01 | =
| `-- /usr/bin/make -C /usr/ports/print/texinfo configure
root 88974 0.0 0.0 10272 1812 0 IJ 13:30 0:00.00 | =
| `-- /bin/sh -e -c (cd =
/wrkdirs/usr/ports/print/texinfo/work/texinfo-6.5 && =
_LATE_CONFIGURE_ARGS=3D"" ; if [=20
root 89283 0.0 0.0 11160 2108 0 IJ 13:30 0:00.10 | =
| `-- /bin/sh ./configure --enable-nls =
--prefix=3D/usr/local --localstatedir=3D/var --mandir=3D/usr/local/man =
--di
root 89692 0.0 0.0 227368 14504 0 IJ 13:30 0:00.03 | =
| `-- /usr/local/bin/qemu-aarch64-static wc =
//dev/null
root 89694 0.0 0.0 227424 14596 0 IJ 13:30 0:00.01 | =
| `-- /usr/local/bin/qemu-aarch64-static wc =
//dev/null
root 89695 0.0 0.0 227584 14720 0 IJ 13:30 0:00.01 | =
| `-- wc: zygote (qemu-aarch64-static)
wc (via qemu-aarch64-static) gets stuck in what apparently was a select =
request
that turned into a pselect use. (do_freebsd_pselect was not called.)
=3D=3D=3D
Mark Millard
marklmi at yahoo.com
( dsl-only.net went
away in early 2018-Mar)
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From: Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>
To: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
cc: Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net>, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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> necessary bits with one pkg install command.
>
> In summary we should pair down base and use ports to our advantage.
> Unless the proposal is to add some feature written in rust that cannot
> live in ports or if the proposal is to rewrite FreeBSD into rust (which
> I vehemently disagree with),
Why do you disagree?! Let others do it, or even reimplement it in java or
visual basic.
But as a separate project.
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From: Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 10:22:10 +0000
Message-ID: <CADWvR2ideG+1Wk=NkyAQnxvUGb0BGu_EnjKu-OsZ9i57m8utcg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
To: Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>
Cc: Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
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On Thu, 3 Jan 2019 at 10:18, Wojciech Puchar wrote:
>
> > necessary bits with one pkg install command.
> >
> > In summary we should pair down base and use ports to our advantage.
> > Unless the proposal is to add some feature written in rust that cannot
> > live in ports or if the proposal is to rewrite FreeBSD into rust (which
> > I vehemently disagree with),
>
> Why do you disagree?! Let others do it, or even reimplement it in java or
> visual basic.
>
> But as a separate project.
... and call it RustyBSD or CRustyBSD (because there will still be C) :-))
--
Igor M.
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cc: Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>,
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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>>
>> Why do you disagree?! Let others do it, or even reimplement it in java or
>> visual basic.
>>
>> But as a separate project.
>
>
> ... and call it RustyBSD or CRustyBSD (because there will still be C) :-))
let they call it whatever they like.
Just not try to turn FreeBSD upside down.
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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From: Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net>
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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On 1/2/19 1:29 PM, Cy Schubert wrote:
>> I'm all for discussion and criticism of this, that's why I posted it,
>> but I don't think these kinds of false equivalences are helpful.
>=20
> Actually it is helpful. Without a solid proposal of a new feature or=20
> userland utility to be imported into base that requires the support of =
> a language not already in base, the implication of the original email=20
> starting this thread was to rewrite FreeBSD using rust.
That doesn't represent what I wrote at all, and is bordering on a
strawman argument. Nobody to my knowledge is suggesting rewriting
everything, nor would that be possible.
> In reality we should rely more on ports. Over the years this business=20
> has become more fragmented. Each year we see new languages being=20
> developed and used. Importing new shiny objects into base is=20
> unsustainable. IMO the momentum is behind containerization,=20
> specifically kubernetes and docker-like containers. That is today. The =
> next year or two will introduce new technologies and shiny objects=20
> which we will likely need to introduce here to remain relevant. We=20
> should be looking to reduce the footprint of base, introduce new=20
> technologies in ports (ports are much easier to build from scratch,=20
> maintain, and update than base). Additionally the idea of meta-ports=20
> that install groups of packages would make building purpose-built=20
> systems a breeze for our user base, similar to what anaconda does, like=
=20
> a FreeBSD based LAMP (FAMP) stack package that installs all the=20
> necessary bits with one pkg install command.
And that seems to be the point of convergence in all this, which is fine
by me. I was looking to discuss the options and figure out the best way
forward.
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
From: Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com>
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> On Jan 3, 2019, at 04:46, Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net> wrote:
>=20
> On 1/2/19 1:29 PM, Cy Schubert wrote:
>=20
>>> I'm all for discussion and criticism of this, that's why I posted it,
>>> but I don't think these kinds of false equivalences are helpful.
>>=20
>> Actually it is helpful. Without a solid proposal of a new feature or=20
>> userland utility to be imported into base that requires the support of=20=
>> a language not already in base, the implication of the original email=20
>> starting this thread was to rewrite FreeBSD using rust.
>=20
> That doesn't represent what I wrote at all, and is bordering on a
> strawman argument. Nobody to my knowledge is suggesting rewriting
> everything, nor would that be possible.
>=20
>> In reality we should rely more on ports. Over the years this business=20
>> has become more fragmented. Each year we see new languages being=20
>> developed and used. Importing new shiny objects into base is=20
>> unsustainable. IMO the momentum is behind containerization,=20
>> specifically kubernetes and docker-like containers. That is today. The=20=
>> next year or two will introduce new technologies and shiny objects=20
>> which we will likely need to introduce here to remain relevant. We=20
>> should be looking to reduce the footprint of base, introduce new=20
>> technologies in ports (ports are much easier to build from scratch,=20
>> maintain, and update than base). Additionally the idea of meta-ports=20
>> that install groups of packages would make building purpose-built=20
>> systems a breeze for our user base, similar to what anaconda does, like=20=
>> a FreeBSD based LAMP (FAMP) stack package that installs all the=20
>> necessary bits with one pkg install command.
>=20
> And that seems to be the point of convergence in all this, which is fine
> by me. I was looking to discuss the options and figure out the best way
> forward.
Going back to my previous statement, I think writing a service monitor (to w=
ork alongside init and rc) in modern C++/rust would be a good item to undert=
ake.
I=E2=80=99d be willing to do this with someone else, as a research project/t=
o demo how rust could be used.
Given prior comments about rust binary sizes and the fact that the default l=
inking option is mostly static, a =E2=80=9Cmission critical binary=E2=80=9D l=
ike this (or rescue?) would be a good candidate for rust.
Cheers,
-Enji
PS let=E2=80=99s call the discussion mostly closed and start working on prot=
otypes instead of beating a dead horse further.=
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From: Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 16:32:31 +0000
Message-ID: <CADWvR2ju7y_rcY3MFe_381yBmPXgm1BA7RzA9ZTUfTtCHdFGLw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
To: Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com>
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On Thu, 3 Jan 2019 at 16:26, Enji Cooper wrote:
<snip>
> PS let=E2=80=99s call the discussion mostly closed and start working on p=
rototypes instead of beating a dead horse further.
That's precisely how ideas that most people disagree with get *pushed*
through by evangelists with confirmation bias! Like someone said
earlier in the discussion: does Rust add anything? The answer is a
resounding NO, save for bloat.
--=20
Igor M.
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>
>
> That's precisely how ideas that most people disagree with get *pushed*
> through by evangelists with confirmation bias! Like someone said
> earlier in the discussion: does Rust add anything? The answer is a
> resounding NO, save for bloat.
>
for all such "evangelists" it should be clear reaction:
"start your fork".
Instead of making long discussion.
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
From: Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com>
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In-Reply-To: <CADWvR2ju7y_rcY3MFe_381yBmPXgm1BA7RzA9ZTUfTtCHdFGLw@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 09:41:53 -0800
Cc: Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
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To: Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>
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Igor,
> On Jan 3, 2019, at 08:32, Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk> wrote:
...
> That's precisely how ideas that most people disagree with get *pushed*
> through by evangelists with confirmation bias! Like someone said
> earlier in the discussion: does Rust add anything? The answer is a
> resounding NO, save for bloat.
And this is why one reason people say =E2=80=9CFreeBSD is dying=E2=80=9D.
If we stuck with status quo, we wouldn=E2=80=99t have llvm, would use just P=
owerPC/Intel architectures, libxo wouldn=E2=80=99t be a thing, we wouldn=E2=80=
=99t have tests, etc.
Calculated risks have value. But in order to prove their acceptance and use,=
you need to provide prototypes to show their usefulness, provide measuremen=
ts, and such.
My point is to provide an existing service that I=E2=80=99ve seen implemente=
d more than once by FreeBSD-integrators in an ugly way, using non-modern C/C=
++, or python 2.x: the former which is more difficult to maintain than moder=
n C/C++, and frankly was a mess; the latter which was maintainable, but slow=
(because JIT python) and didn=E2=80=99t use base system components, i.e., p=
ython 2.x.
Tl;Dr: if you don=E2=80=99t have anything constructive to say, please rethin=
k your replies and provide constructive criticism. Constructive criticism is=
welcome. Armchair nitpicking is not.
Thanks,
-Enji=
From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Thu Jan 3 19:30:36 2019
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From: Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>
To: Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com>
cc: Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>,
Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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>> That's precisely how ideas that most people disagree with get *pushed*
>> through by evangelists with confirmation bias! Like someone said
>> earlier in the discussion: does Rust add anything? The answer is a
>> resounding NO, save for bloat.
>
> And this is why one reason people say “FreeBSD is dyingâ€.
>
dying for whom?
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From: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 12:44:22 -0700
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
To: Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>
Cc: Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com>,
Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>,
Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>
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On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 12:32 PM Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net> wrote:
> >> That's precisely how ideas that most people disagree with get *pushed*
> >> through by evangelists with confirmation bias! Like someone said
> >> earlier in the discussion: does Rust add anything? The answer is a
> >> resounding NO, save for bloat.
> >
> > And this is why one reason people say =E2=80=9CFreeBSD is dying=E2=80=
=9D.
> >
> dying for whom?
>
And who is getting punished? We're having an interesting discussion about a
possible new technology to use and developing criteria to know when we will
know if/when it's useful.
Warner
From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Thu Jan 3 20:00:31 2019
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From: Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 19:59:46 +0000
Message-ID: <CADWvR2iNFbcuMsDZw31V0xtC-7O55_iZ4Mx-fVwP4NLgv8sg5w@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
To: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com>
Cc: Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
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On Thu, 3 Jan 2019 at 19:44, Warner Losh wrote:
<snip>
> And who is getting punished? We're having an interesting discussion about=
a possible new technology to use and developing criteria to know when we w=
ill know if/when it's useful.
"Call[ing] the discussion mostly closed," and calling to get on
implementing in CRust is pushing, if it isn't, then I don't know what
is:-
On Thu, 3 Jan 2019 at 16:26, Enji Cooper wrote:
<snip>
> PS let=E2=80=99s call the discussion mostly closed and start working on p=
rototypes instead of beating a dead horse further.
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
From: Mark Blackman <mark@exonetric.com>
In-Reply-To: <CADWvR2ju7y_rcY3MFe_381yBmPXgm1BA7RzA9ZTUfTtCHdFGLw@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 20:18:06 +0000
Cc: Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com>,
Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
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> On 3 Jan 2019, at 16:32, Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk> =
wrote:
>=20
> On Thu, 3 Jan 2019 at 16:26, Enji Cooper wrote:
>=20
> <snip>
>=20
>> PS let=E2=80=99s call the discussion mostly closed and start working =
on prototypes instead of beating a dead horse further.
>=20
>=20
> That's precisely how ideas that most people disagree with get *pushed*
> through by evangelists with confirmation bias! Like someone said
> earlier in the discussion: does Rust add anything? The answer is a
> resounding NO, save for bloat.
Technically, I thought it was clear what Rust adds and that is =
=E2=80=9Csafety=E2=80=9D, the cost of that =E2=80=9Csafety=E2=80=9D and =
the comprehensiveness of that =E2=80=9Csafety=E2=80=9D are debatable,=20
but the proposed benefit seemed pretty clear to me
- Mark=
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From: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 13:18:11 -0700
Message-ID: <CANCZdfrXuxmhbufj-s15j7a9zseB6PmnFxyjR0Bxw5h_AekCWw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
To: Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>
Cc: Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
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On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 1:00 PM Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>
wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Jan 2019 at 19:44, Warner Losh wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > And who is getting punished? We're having an interesting discussion
> about a possible new technology to use and developing criteria to know when
> we will know if/when it's useful.
>
>
> "Call[ing] the discussion mostly closed," and calling to get on
> implementing in CRust is pushing, if it isn't, then I don't know what
> is:-
>
that's putting an end-cap on the productive part of the discussion,
something we've been terrible as a project at doing.
There's no punishment here. That's merely a summary of the more-or-less
consensus view that this might be interesting someday, but isn't today. We
really can't take the discussion farther than that right now.
Warner
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From: Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 20:24:28 +0000
Message-ID: <CADWvR2hETR3j2=aNVGDiYfJeyeqgavDQOuxkxrE+VZFfD5BzJg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
To: Mark Blackman <mark@exonetric.com>
Cc: Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
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On Thu, 3 Jan 2019 at 20:18, Mark Blackman wrote:
>
> > On 3 Jan 2019, at 16:32, Igor Mozolevsky wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 3 Jan 2019 at 16:26, Enji Cooper wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >> PS let=E2=80=99s call the discussion mostly closed and start working o=
n prototypes instead of beating a dead horse further.
> >
> >
> > That's precisely how ideas that most people disagree with get *pushed*
> > through by evangelists with confirmation bias! Like someone said
> > earlier in the discussion: does Rust add anything? The answer is a
> > resounding NO, save for bloat.
>
> Technically, I thought it was clear what Rust adds and that is =E2=80=9Cs=
afety=E2=80=9D, the cost of that =E2=80=9Csafety=E2=80=9D and the comprehen=
siveness of that =E2=80=9Csafety=E2=80=9D are debatable,
> but the proposed benefit seemed pretty clear to me
And by what metric is that "safety" measured, how does one measure
"safety" objectively? To me, that sounds like a techie version of
virtue-signalling... Even the Rust-clan seem to be rather confused
about it: https://doc.rust-lang.org/nomicon/meet-safe-and-unsafe.html
Btw, Java is "safe" too, and it's been around for *much* longer!
--=20
Igor M.
From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Thu Jan 3 20:53:21 2019
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From: Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 18:20:40 +0000
Message-ID: <CADWvR2jjTg9VaSEVH+7Vx0ncAWt+-cyOb=kDQbqyJYuAkW5WMg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
To: Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com>
Cc: Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
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On Thu, 3 Jan 2019 at 17:41, Enji Cooper wrote:
>
> Igor,
>
> > On Jan 3, 2019, at 08:32, Igor Mozolevsky wrote:
> >
> > That's precisely how ideas that most people disagree with get *pushed*
> > through by evangelists with confirmation bias! Like someone said
> > earlier in the discussion: does Rust add anything? The answer is a
> > resounding NO, save for bloat.
>
> And this is why one reason people say =E2=80=9CFreeBSD is dying=E2=80=9D.
>
> If we stuck with status quo, we wouldn=E2=80=99t have llvm, would use jus=
t PowerPC/Intel architectures, libxo wouldn=E2=80=99t be a thing, we wouldn=
=E2=80=99t have tests, etc.
>
> Calculated risks have value. But in order to prove their acceptance and u=
se, you need to provide prototypes to show their usefulness, provide measur=
ements, and such.
Really, FreeBSD is dying because people don't want to experiment with
"new toys" that have *not* been proven to be effective at what they
claim to do while having been proven to be a bloat? Really, that's
your argument? Well, like And there I was thinking it way dying
because of long-term "issues" like this one:
https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D203874 that prevent
me (and I suspect many many others) from virtualising FreeBSD and
causing a switch to the various flavours of Linux!
Like Wojciech said, absolutely nothing prevents you from forking off a
branch and even re-writing the entire code in Rust, just don't turn
around and say "I spend X amount of time on it therefore it must be
integrated into FreeBSD-proper regardless of the numerous shortfalls"!
As it stands the base install is too large as it is, and I have
recompile the whole thing with a whole bunch of WITHOUTs already, and
you're saying more bloatware should be added.
> My point is to provide an existing service that I=E2=80=99ve seen impleme=
nted more than once by FreeBSD-integrators in an ugly way, using non-modern=
C/C++, or python 2.x: the former which is more difficult to maintain than =
modern C/C++, and frankly was a mess; the latter which was maintainable, bu=
t slow (because JIT python) and didn=E2=80=99t use base system components, =
i.e., python 2.x.
Maintainability is not about code, it's about people's skills and
documentation, if one is inept at C, or Python, what on Earth makes
you think they would write amazing code in Rust? Your argument simply
doesn't follow there at all.
> Tl;Dr: if you don=E2=80=99t have anything constructive to say, please ret=
hink your replies and provide constructive criticism. Constructive criticis=
m is welcome. Armchair nitpicking is not.
Here's my constructive criticism: don't waste resources on an unproven
and still-evolving language; if you have *that* much free time on your hand=
s
start working through BugZilla.
--
Igor M.
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From: Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>
To: Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>
cc: Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com>,
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> Like Wojciech said, absolutely nothing prevents you from forking off a
> branch and even re-writing the entire code in Rust, just don't turn
> around and say "I spend X amount of time on it therefore it must be
> integrated into FreeBSD-proper regardless of the numerous shortfalls"!
"it must" really means
---
I (the all knowing) order FreeBSD programmers to do this because I decided
it's good.
---
Instead of this it's much better to simply write "the right way" own
software.
Discussing with trolls doesn't make sense.
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From: Ben Woods <woodsb02@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 08:26:34 +1100
Message-ID: <CAOc73CCaKQvzvVFXS-5OTE3d91y37N897b6rwtccZmokzicTLA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: FreeBSD 12 log formats
To: Matt Churchyard <matt.churchyard@userve.net>,
"ed@freebsd.org" <ed@freebsd.org>
Cc: "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
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On Thu, 3 Jan 2019 at 3:12 am, Matt Churchyard <matt.churchyard@userve.net>
wrote:
> I (and other users) have noticed that log messages have started appearing
> in a different format in FreeBSD 12 (although in my case only on one
> system, and some logs are still the original format...).
> ...
>
> Jan 2 12:04:13 ftp 1 2019-01-02T12:04:13.584377+00:00 ftp.full.hostname
> pkg 5522 - - php72-hash-7.2.13 installed
>
Hi Matt,
That log message has both the old and new formats combined - I believe that
will occur when you are using an old syslog daemon with the new libc
syslog(3) code. By =E2=80=9Cold=E2=80=9D daemon, I mean one that has not be=
en updated to
expect the /var/run/log[priv] sockets to contain RFC5424 style logs.
Are there any jails involved with the above log message, or was it simply
running =E2=80=9Cpkg install ...=E2=80=9D on the FreeBSD 12 host?
If you are using rsyslog or syslog-ng, the UPDATING entry for this change
(linked below) includes instructions required to make them work with the
new libc code:
https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base/head/UPDATING?r1=3D332100&r2=3D332099&pathr=
ev=3D332100
Regards,
Ben
--=20
--
From: Benjamin Woods
woodsb02@gmail.com
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
In-Reply-To: Message from Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net> of "Thu,
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In message <alpine.BSF.2.20.1901031112030.53034@puchar.net>, Wojciech
Puchar wr
ites:
> > necessary bits with one pkg install command.
> >
> > In summary we should pair down base and use ports to our advantage.
> > Unless the proposal is to add some feature written in rust that cannot
> > live in ports or if the proposal is to rewrite FreeBSD into rust (which
> > I vehemently disagree with),
>
> Why do you disagree?! Let others do it, or even reimplement it in java or
> visual basic.
>
> But as a separate project.
Exactly! Fork. If it's good and becomes generally adopted, import.
--
Cheers,
Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
FreeBSD UNIX: <cy@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org
The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
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To: Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>
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Subject: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system
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In message <alpine.BSF.2.20.1901032030260.40635@puchar.net>, Wojciech
Puchar wr
ites:
> >> That's precisely how ideas that most people disagree with get *pushed*
> >> through by evangelists with confirmation bias! Like someone said
> >> earlier in the discussion: does Rust add anything? The answer is a
> >> resounding NO, save for bloat.
> >
> > And this is why one reason people say “FreeBSD is dyingâ€.
> >
> dying for whom?
Not to answer this question but to think strategically:
I come from the corporate/government environment, having spent most of
my time there. Large datacentres (Canadian spelling), large machines,
large networks of machines, large networks. In this environment, today,
virtualization in all forms are the platforms of business. Migrations
from physical platforms running AIX, Solaris and Linux to either Linux
on VMware or Linux containers is where they are putting 100% of their
effort. The language of choice is mostly Java. Much of the Java is
canned too. What used to be implemented on LAMP stacks is now being
implemented using microservices. The platform of choice for
microservices is Linux. Stripped down Linux primarily capable of
supporting microservices. And now at $JOB we're talking about running
microservices on Linux VMs -- virtualization on virtualization, on a
virtual network (NSX). My customers are working on microservices and
containers that can be migrated from their private cloud to the public
cloud and back again easily.
Even Microsoft is working on a container strategy. The future is
containers. The desktop platform isn't nearly as important any more.
And, the physical server, its location, what it runs on and who runs it
are also less important. What is important is the speed and cost
effectiveness of standing up applications.
IMO we have strengths that can immediately be capitalized on, like the
Linuxulator. If anything could be in base it might be go, the language
Kubernetes is written in -- don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating
importing go into base. Having said that, transforming FreeBSD into a
PaaS platform, tying it all together using Kubernetes would position
FreeBSD for the future to come. Maybe I'm talking myself into go and
Kubernetes in base but maybe this could just as easily be done in ports.
Think about this: Kubernetes in base or ports, using the Linuxulator
and jails (or an implementation of cgroups and namespaces constructs in
addition to jails). Bhyve and jails provide the enterprise with other
virtualization options such that a FreeBSD host could host Linux or
FreeBSD containers, Windows or other VMs, and FreeBSD jails, all on one
or a cluster of FreeBSD hosts, possibly part of a heterogeneous cluster.
This IMO would position FreeBSD for the future.
Maybe go and Kubernetes? Let's not be left behind.
--
Cheers,
Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
FreeBSD UNIX: <cy@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org
The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Thu Jan 3 22:51:50 2019
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From: Alan Somers <asomers@freebsd.org>
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 15:51:29 -0700
Message-ID: <CAOtMX2jdDSUwtifm=a_nqJWg_5yCOoe4BYGmO4QkbysRZ8UCrg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system
components)
To: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
Cc: Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>,
Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>,
Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>, Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com>
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On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 3:29 PM Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com> wrot=
e:
>
> In message <alpine.BSF.2.20.1901032030260.40635@puchar.net>, Wojciech
> Puchar wr
> ites:
> > >> That's precisely how ideas that most people disagree with get *pushe=
d*
> > >> through by evangelists with confirmation bias! Like someone said
> > >> earlier in the discussion: does Rust add anything? The answer is a
> > >> resounding NO, save for bloat.
> > >
> > > And this is why one reason people say =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93FreeBSD is=
dying=C3=A2=E2=82=AC .
> > >
> > dying for whom?
>
> Not to answer this question but to think strategically:
>
> I come from the corporate/government environment, having spent most of
> my time there. Large datacentres (Canadian spelling), large machines,
> large networks of machines, large networks. In this environment, today,
> virtualization in all forms are the platforms of business. Migrations
> from physical platforms running AIX, Solaris and Linux to either Linux
> on VMware or Linux containers is where they are putting 100% of their
> effort. The language of choice is mostly Java. Much of the Java is
> canned too. What used to be implemented on LAMP stacks is now being
> implemented using microservices. The platform of choice for
> microservices is Linux. Stripped down Linux primarily capable of
> supporting microservices. And now at $JOB we're talking about running
> microservices on Linux VMs -- virtualization on virtualization, on a
> virtual network (NSX). My customers are working on microservices and
> containers that can be migrated from their private cloud to the public
> cloud and back again easily.
>
> Even Microsoft is working on a container strategy. The future is
> containers. The desktop platform isn't nearly as important any more.
> And, the physical server, its location, what it runs on and who runs it
> are also less important. What is important is the speed and cost
> effectiveness of standing up applications.
>
> IMO we have strengths that can immediately be capitalized on, like the
> Linuxulator. If anything could be in base it might be go, the language
> Kubernetes is written in -- don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating
> importing go into base. Having said that, transforming FreeBSD into a
> PaaS platform, tying it all together using Kubernetes would position
> FreeBSD for the future to come. Maybe I'm talking myself into go and
> Kubernetes in base but maybe this could just as easily be done in ports.
>
> Think about this: Kubernetes in base or ports, using the Linuxulator
> and jails (or an implementation of cgroups and namespaces constructs in
> addition to jails). Bhyve and jails provide the enterprise with other
> virtualization options such that a FreeBSD host could host Linux or
> FreeBSD containers, Windows or other VMs, and FreeBSD jails, all on one
> or a cluster of FreeBSD hosts, possibly part of a heterogeneous cluster.
>
> This IMO would position FreeBSD for the future.
>
> Maybe go and Kubernetes? Let's not be left behind.
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
> FreeBSD UNIX: <cy@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org
>
> The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
FreeBSD support in Kubernetes would be great, but I don't think
there's any reason to put it into base. The interesting thing about
Rust is that it's so good at low-level work. As we discussed,
Johannes Lundberg has written a device driver in Rust. And Fabian
Freyer is working on jail(3) and jail(8) replacements in Rust. Enji
is thinking about writing an rc(8) replacement in Rust. These are the
kind of projects that make sense to do in base, apart from the
language barrier. Go, I think, would be just fine remaining in ports.
If I were to pick any language other than Rust to add to the base
system, it might be Lua. Though high level, its embeddable and nicely
complements C and Rust. That's why it's used internally in Kyua, and
it even in the NetBSD kernel.
-Alan
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To: Alan Somers <asomers@freebsd.org>
cc: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>,
Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>,
Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>,
Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>,
Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system
components)
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 03 Jan 2019 15:51:29 -0700."
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In message <CAOtMX2jdDSUwtifm=3Da_nqJWg_5yCOoe4BYGmO4QkbysRZ8UCrg@mail.gma=
il.com>
, Alan Somers writes:
> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 3:29 PM Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com> w=
rote:
> >
> > In message <alpine.BSF.2.20.1901032030260.40635@puchar.net>, Wojciech
> > Puchar wr
> > ites:
> > > >> That's precisely how ideas that most people disagree with get *pu=
shed*
> > > >> through by evangelists with confirmation bias! Like someone said
> > > >> earlier in the discussion: does Rust add anything? The answer is =
a
> > > >> resounding NO, save for bloat.
> > > >
> > > > And this is why one reason people say FreeBSD is dying.
> > > >
> > > dying for whom?
> >
> > Not to answer this question but to think strategically:
> >
> > I come from the corporate/government environment, having spent most of
> > my time there. Large datacentres (Canadian spelling), large machines,
> > large networks of machines, large networks. In this environment, today=
,
> > virtualization in all forms are the platforms of business. Migrations
> > from physical platforms running AIX, Solaris and Linux to either Linux
> > on VMware or Linux containers is where they are putting 100% of their
> > effort. The language of choice is mostly Java. Much of the Java is
> > canned too. What used to be implemented on LAMP stacks is now being
> > implemented using microservices. The platform of choice for
> > microservices is Linux. Stripped down Linux primarily capable of
> > supporting microservices. And now at $JOB we're talking about running
> > microservices on Linux VMs -- virtualization on virtualization, on a
> > virtual network (NSX). My customers are working on microservices and
> > containers that can be migrated from their private cloud to the public
> > cloud and back again easily.
> >
> > Even Microsoft is working on a container strategy. The future is
> > containers. The desktop platform isn't nearly as important any more.
> > And, the physical server, its location, what it runs on and who runs i=
t
> > are also less important. What is important is the speed and cost
> > effectiveness of standing up applications.
> >
> > IMO we have strengths that can immediately be capitalized on, like the
> > Linuxulator. If anything could be in base it might be go, the language
> > Kubernetes is written in -- don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating
> > importing go into base. Having said that, transforming FreeBSD into a
> > PaaS platform, tying it all together using Kubernetes would position
> > FreeBSD for the future to come. Maybe I'm talking myself into go and
> > Kubernetes in base but maybe this could just as easily be done in port=
s.
> >
> > Think about this: Kubernetes in base or ports, using the Linuxulator
> > and jails (or an implementation of cgroups and namespaces constructs i=
n
> > addition to jails). Bhyve and jails provide the enterprise with other
> > virtualization options such that a FreeBSD host could host Linux or
> > FreeBSD containers, Windows or other VMs, and FreeBSD jails, all on on=
e
> > or a cluster of FreeBSD hosts, possibly part of a heterogeneous cluste=
r.
> >
> > This IMO would position FreeBSD for the future.
> >
> > Maybe go and Kubernetes? Let's not be left behind.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Cheers,
> > Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
> > FreeBSD UNIX: <cy@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org
> >
> > The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
>
> FreeBSD support in Kubernetes would be great, but I don't think
> there's any reason to put it into base. The interesting thing about
> Rust is that it's so good at low-level work. As we discussed,
> Johannes Lundberg has written a device driver in Rust. And Fabian
> Freyer is working on jail(3) and jail(8) replacements in Rust. Enji
> is thinking about writing an rc(8) replacement in Rust. These are the
> kind of projects that make sense to do in base, apart from the
> language barrier. Go, I think, would be just fine remaining in ports.
> If I were to pick any language other than Rust to add to the base
> system, it might be Lua. Though high level, its embeddable and nicely
> complements C and Rust. That's why it's used internally in Kyua, and
> it even in the NetBSD kernel.
I didn't specifically suggest it had to be in base, hence "or ports."
(My preference is almost always ports.) My point was, let's step back
and lay out a roadmap. If rust is in the roadmap, fine. Rust, which is
already in ports, and other things we might want should align with
that direction.
Meta ports such as a PaaS, OpenShift, or cloud-server metaports could
tie it all together for users.
pkgbase would add flexability and in so doing solve some issues too.
>
> -Alan
>
Cheers,
Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
FreeBSD UNIX: <cy@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org
The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Thu Jan 3 23:21:09 2019
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
From: Bob Bishop <rb@gid.co.uk>
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 23:12:42 +0000
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Hi,
> On 3 Jan 2019, at 18:20, Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk> =
wrote:
>=20
> [trimmed]
>=20
>> Tl;Dr: if you don=E2=80=99t have anything constructive to say, please =
rethink your replies and provide constructive criticism. Constructive =
criticism is welcome. Armchair nitpicking is not.
>=20
> Here's my constructive criticism: don't waste resources on an unproven
> and still-evolving language; if you have *that* much free time on your =
hands
> start working through BugZilla.
+lots
Ditto earlier comments on the build system.
> --
> Igor M.
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list
> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to =
"freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"
--
Bob Bishop
rb@gid.co.uk
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From: Ben Woods <woodsb02@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 10:26:19 +1100
Message-ID: <CAOc73CD_sOU+QFsjJzU=AOrqJ+sNgKJOJuN44TUsMhigx_Lk+A@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: FreeBSD 12 log formats
To: Matt Churchyard <matt.churchyard@userve.net>,
"ed@freebsd.org" <ed@freebsd.org>
Cc: "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
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On Thu, 3 Jan 2019 at 3:12 am, Matt Churchyard <matt.churchyard@userve.net>
wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I asked this question on the freebsd-questions mailing list but didn't get
> any response.
> I (and other users) have noticed that log messages have started appearing
> in a different format in FreeBSD 12 (although in my case only on one
> system, and some logs are still the original format...).
Hi Matt,
Given that you are only experiencing this on 1 of your FreeBSD 12 systems,
and it was upgraded from a FreeBSD 11 system - could this be a result of an
incomplete upgrade?
How did you go about upgrading (src or binary)? Did you finish all of the
steps, including the SECOND issuance of the following command?
# freebsd-update install
Refer to the upgrade instructions below which explain the need to run that
command a SECOND time:
https://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/updating-upgrading-freebsdupdate.html
Regards,
Ben
> --
--
From: Benjamin Woods
woodsb02@gmail.com
From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Fri Jan 4 00:42:59 2019
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From: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 17:42:44 -0700
Message-ID: <CANCZdfoJJhGQ750h9HREkhUcqCA+5jO260UotyRjDQTKR_AHrA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system
components)
To: Alan Somers <asomers@freebsd.org>
Cc: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>,
FreeBSD Hackers <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>,
Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com>,
Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>, Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>
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On Thu, Jan 3, 2019, 3:53 PM Alan Somers <asomers@freebsd.org wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 3:29 PM Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > In message <alpine.BSF.2.20.1901032030260.40635@puchar.net>, Wojciech
> > Puchar wr
> > ites:
> > > >> That's precisely how ideas that most people disagree with get
> *pushed*
> > > >> through by evangelists with confirmation bias! Like someone said
> > > >> earlier in the discussion: does Rust add anything? The answer is a
> > > >> resounding NO, save for bloat.
> > > >
> > > > And this is why one reason people say =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93FreeBSD =
is dying=C3=A2=E2=82=AC .
> > > >
> > > dying for whom?
> >
> > Not to answer this question but to think strategically:
> >
> > I come from the corporate/government environment, having spent most of
> > my time there. Large datacentres (Canadian spelling), large machines,
> > large networks of machines, large networks. In this environment, today,
> > virtualization in all forms are the platforms of business. Migrations
> > from physical platforms running AIX, Solaris and Linux to either Linux
> > on VMware or Linux containers is where they are putting 100% of their
> > effort. The language of choice is mostly Java. Much of the Java is
> > canned too. What used to be implemented on LAMP stacks is now being
> > implemented using microservices. The platform of choice for
> > microservices is Linux. Stripped down Linux primarily capable of
> > supporting microservices. And now at $JOB we're talking about running
> > microservices on Linux VMs -- virtualization on virtualization, on a
> > virtual network (NSX). My customers are working on microservices and
> > containers that can be migrated from their private cloud to the public
> > cloud and back again easily.
> >
> > Even Microsoft is working on a container strategy. The future is
> > containers. The desktop platform isn't nearly as important any more.
> > And, the physical server, its location, what it runs on and who runs it
> > are also less important. What is important is the speed and cost
> > effectiveness of standing up applications.
> >
> > IMO we have strengths that can immediately be capitalized on, like the
> > Linuxulator. If anything could be in base it might be go, the language
> > Kubernetes is written in -- don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating
> > importing go into base. Having said that, transforming FreeBSD into a
> > PaaS platform, tying it all together using Kubernetes would position
> > FreeBSD for the future to come. Maybe I'm talking myself into go and
> > Kubernetes in base but maybe this could just as easily be done in ports=
.
> >
> > Think about this: Kubernetes in base or ports, using the Linuxulator
> > and jails (or an implementation of cgroups and namespaces constructs in
> > addition to jails). Bhyve and jails provide the enterprise with other
> > virtualization options such that a FreeBSD host could host Linux or
> > FreeBSD containers, Windows or other VMs, and FreeBSD jails, all on one
> > or a cluster of FreeBSD hosts, possibly part of a heterogeneous cluster=
.
> >
> > This IMO would position FreeBSD for the future.
> >
> > Maybe go and Kubernetes? Let's not be left behind.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Cheers,
> > Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
> > FreeBSD UNIX: <cy@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org
> >
> > The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
>
> FreeBSD support in Kubernetes would be great, but I don't think
> there's any reason to put it into base. The interesting thing about
> Rust is that it's so good at low-level work. As we discussed,
> Johannes Lundberg has written a device driver in Rust. And Fabian
> Freyer is working on jail(3) and jail(8) replacements in Rust. Enji
> is thinking about writing an rc(8) replacement in Rust. These are the
> kind of projects that make sense to do in base, apart from the
> language barrier. Go, I think, would be just fine remaining in ports.
> If I were to pick any language other than Rust to add to the base
> system, it might be Lua. Though high level, its embeddable and nicely
> complements C and Rust. That's why it's used internally in Kyua, and
> it even in the NetBSD kernel.
>
We already have. The boot loader uses the latest, almost stock version. ZFS
uses it's weird, hacked version to send down config programs. The build
glue to get a luac is pretty small at this point :)
Warner
>
> -Alan
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list
> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org=
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>
From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Fri Jan 4 02:13:05 2019
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From: Alan Somers <asomers@freebsd.org>
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 19:12:50 -0700
Message-ID: <CAOtMX2jF-FASS3G5cZ_uFdij4-S3FKVYP1EHCPAYMnPaAaWYcA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system
components)
To: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com>
Cc: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>,
FreeBSD Hackers <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>,
Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com>,
Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>, Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>
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On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 5:43 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019, 3:53 PM Alan Somers <asomers@freebsd.org wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 3:29 PM Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com> w=
rote:
>> >
>> > In message <alpine.BSF.2.20.1901032030260.40635@puchar.net>, Wojciech
>> > Puchar wr
>> > ites:
>> > > >> That's precisely how ideas that most people disagree with get *pu=
shed*
>> > > >> through by evangelists with confirmation bias! Like someone said
>> > > >> earlier in the discussion: does Rust add anything? The answer is =
a
>> > > >> resounding NO, save for bloat.
>> > > >
>> > > > And this is why one reason people say =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93FreeBSD=
is dying=C3=A2=E2=82=AC .
>> > > >
>> > > dying for whom?
>> >
>> > Not to answer this question but to think strategically:
>> >
>> > I come from the corporate/government environment, having spent most of
>> > my time there. Large datacentres (Canadian spelling), large machines,
>> > large networks of machines, large networks. In this environment, today=
,
>> > virtualization in all forms are the platforms of business. Migrations
>> > from physical platforms running AIX, Solaris and Linux to either Linux
>> > on VMware or Linux containers is where they are putting 100% of their
>> > effort. The language of choice is mostly Java. Much of the Java is
>> > canned too. What used to be implemented on LAMP stacks is now being
>> > implemented using microservices. The platform of choice for
>> > microservices is Linux. Stripped down Linux primarily capable of
>> > supporting microservices. And now at $JOB we're talking about running
>> > microservices on Linux VMs -- virtualization on virtualization, on a
>> > virtual network (NSX). My customers are working on microservices and
>> > containers that can be migrated from their private cloud to the public
>> > cloud and back again easily.
>> >
>> > Even Microsoft is working on a container strategy. The future is
>> > containers. The desktop platform isn't nearly as important any more.
>> > And, the physical server, its location, what it runs on and who runs i=
t
>> > are also less important. What is important is the speed and cost
>> > effectiveness of standing up applications.
>> >
>> > IMO we have strengths that can immediately be capitalized on, like the
>> > Linuxulator. If anything could be in base it might be go, the language
>> > Kubernetes is written in -- don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating
>> > importing go into base. Having said that, transforming FreeBSD into a
>> > PaaS platform, tying it all together using Kubernetes would position
>> > FreeBSD for the future to come. Maybe I'm talking myself into go and
>> > Kubernetes in base but maybe this could just as easily be done in port=
s.
>> >
>> > Think about this: Kubernetes in base or ports, using the Linuxulator
>> > and jails (or an implementation of cgroups and namespaces constructs i=
n
>> > addition to jails). Bhyve and jails provide the enterprise with other
>> > virtualization options such that a FreeBSD host could host Linux or
>> > FreeBSD containers, Windows or other VMs, and FreeBSD jails, all on on=
e
>> > or a cluster of FreeBSD hosts, possibly part of a heterogeneous cluste=
r.
>> >
>> > This IMO would position FreeBSD for the future.
>> >
>> > Maybe go and Kubernetes? Let's not be left behind.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Cheers,
>> > Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
>> > FreeBSD UNIX: <cy@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org
>> >
>> > The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
>>
>> FreeBSD support in Kubernetes would be great, but I don't think
>> there's any reason to put it into base. The interesting thing about
>> Rust is that it's so good at low-level work. As we discussed,
>> Johannes Lundberg has written a device driver in Rust. And Fabian
>> Freyer is working on jail(3) and jail(8) replacements in Rust. Enji
>> is thinking about writing an rc(8) replacement in Rust. These are the
>> kind of projects that make sense to do in base, apart from the
>> language barrier. Go, I think, would be just fine remaining in ports.
>> If I were to pick any language other than Rust to add to the base
>> system, it might be Lua. Though high level, its embeddable and nicely
>> complements C and Rust. That's why it's used internally in Kyua, and
>> it even in the NetBSD kernel.
>
>
> We already have. The boot loader uses the latest, almost stock version. Z=
FS uses it's weird, hacked version to send down config programs. The build =
glue to get a luac is pretty small at this point :)
>
> Warner
Wow, I'm way behind then. Maybe I'll actually need to learn it.
-Alan
From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Fri Jan 4 10:34:53 2019
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To: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
cc: Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>, Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com>,
Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>,
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Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system
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>
> I come from the corporate/government environment, having spent most of
> my time there. Large datacentres (Canadian spelling), large machines,
> large networks of machines, large networks. In this environment, today,
> virtualization in all forms are the platforms of business. Migrations
> from physical platforms running AIX, Solaris and Linux to either Linux
> on VMware or Linux containers is where they are putting 100% of their
> effort. The language of choice is mostly Java. Much of the Java is
> canned too. What used to be implemented on LAMP stacks is now being
> implemented using microservices. The platform of choice for
> microservices is Linux. Stripped down Linux primarily capable of
Just as fashion changes.
>
> IMO we have strengths that can immediately be capitalized on, like the
> Linuxulator. If anything could be in base it might be go, the language
What do you mean "capitalized"?
FreeBSD already allow to do all mentioned things, but anyway someone
who use FreeBSD is usually smart enough to not blidnly copy what is now
trendy.
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<7d7bc47d-04cf-2f9b-00a3-e3d9d92b3623@aceshardware.com>
<72922F2C-9D27-47AA-BB1C-2DA8589CF008@rpi.edu>
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From: Alejandro Martinez <unledev@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 11:02:18 +0000
Message-ID: <CAFwFPkziF+EvZ2fEv1fErfmDujPm9UhxvoYUBoCo-+tjXtBWmw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
To: Brian Neal <brian@aceshardware.com>
Cc: Garance A Drosehn <drosih@rpi.edu>, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Hi Brian,
On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 7:02 AM Brian Neal <brian@aceshardware.com> wrote:
>
> It was a debug build with no optimization for either compiler. But we
> can easily run a variety of settings for comparison:
>
> Compiler Flags Inst. Count Build Time
> ======================================================================
> clang 7.0.0 none 33 296ms
> -O3 23 341ms
> rustc 1.31.0 none 110 606ms
> -C opt-level=3 67 643ms
> gcc 8.2 none 37 211ms
> -O2 24 249ms
> -O3 119* 206ms
>
> * With -O3, gcc unrolled and vectorized the loop. The other compilers
> did not emit vectorized code at any of the standard optimization levels.
>
> So, essentially, double the build time and ~3 times the code for the
> same logic.
Can you share your exact tests so others can replicate?
Thanks,
Alex
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On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 12:37 PM Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net> wrote:
> >
> > I come from the corporate/government environment, having spent most of
> > my time there. Large datacentres (Canadian spelling), large machines,
> > large networks of machines, large networks. In this environment, today,
> > virtualization in all forms are the platforms of business. Migrations
> > from physical platforms running AIX, Solaris and Linux to either Linux
> > on VMware or Linux containers is where they are putting 100% of their
> > effort. The language of choice is mostly Java. Much of the Java is
> > canned too. What used to be implemented on LAMP stacks is now being
> > implemented using microservices. The platform of choice for
> > microservices is Linux. Stripped down Linux primarily capable of
>
> Just as fashion changes.
> >
> > IMO we have strengths that can immediately be capitalized on, like the
> > Linuxulator. If anything could be in base it might be go, the language
>
> What do you mean "capitalized"?
>
> FreeBSD already allow to do all mentioned things, but anyway someone
> who use FreeBSD is usually smart enough to not blidnly copy what is now
> trendy.
>
> +1000
There is way too much fashion in IT nowdays.
Maybe one of the reasons that many software stacks lately make statically
linked binaries (eg. Go and Rust), and containers that embed every
dependency are becoming popular, is that Linux has no base system and only
distro-specific packages, and thus poor API/ABI compatibility between
distros and distro versions, so it really needs these features?
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
From: Brian Neal <brian@aceshardware.com>
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 08:50:10 -0800
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Garance A Drosehn <drosih@rpi.edu>
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To: Alejandro Martinez <unledev@gmail.com>
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Sure!
Just go to http://godbolt.org/ and type a small program in each language, en=
ter the appropriate compilation flags and compare the output. The function I=
used took a count as a parameter, iterated through the count, summed up odd=
numbers and returned the sum.
Cheers,
-Brian
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jan 4, 2019, at 3:02 AM, Alejandro Martinez <unledev@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Brian,
>=20
>> On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 7:02 AM Brian Neal <brian@aceshardware.com> wrote:=
>>=20
>> It was a debug build with no optimization for either compiler. But we
>> can easily run a variety of settings for comparison:
>>=20
>> Compiler Flags Inst. Count Build Time
>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>> clang 7.0.0 none 33 296ms
>> -O3 23 341ms
>> rustc 1.31.0 none 110 606ms
>> -C opt-level=3D3 67 643ms
>> gcc 8.2 none 37 211ms
>> -O2 24 249ms
>> -O3 119* 206ms
>>=20
>> * With -O3, gcc unrolled and vectorized the loop. The other compilers
>> did not emit vectorized code at any of the standard optimization levels.
>>=20
>> So, essentially, double the build time and ~3 times the code for the
>> same logic.
>=20
> Can you share your exact tests so others can replicate?
>=20
> Thanks,
> Alex
> _______________________________________________
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> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 18:34:53 +0100
From: Alfonso Siciliano <alfix86@gmail.com>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: libsysctl: a C API for sysctl-mib-tree
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Hello,
> I' m currently working on a library called "libsysctl" which will
> provide a C API to wrap kern_sysctl.c undocumented interface, build
> mib-entry, entries-list and mib-tree in userspace and then to do
> the work that /sbin/sysctl currently does.
> I could submit a patch to reviews.freebsd.org to solicit feedback
Review: https://reviews.freebsd.org/D18696 (reviewers are welcome)
> and write a wiki page.
Wiki: https://wiki.freebsd.org/AlfonsoSiciliano/libsysctl
> Overview http://gitlab.com/alfix/libsysctl/blob/master/README.md
> manuals *.3 in libsysctl/doc/ are 'work in progress'.
Manual: https://gitlab.com/alfix/libsysctl/blob/master/libsysctl.txt
Regards,
Alfonso Siciliano
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To: Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>
cc: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>,
Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com>,
Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>,
Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base
system components)
In-Reply-To: Message from Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net> of "Fri,
04 Jan 2019 11:34:49 +0100." <alpine.BSF.2.20.1901041132430.45366@puchar.net>
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In message <alpine.BSF.2.20.1901041132430.45366@puchar.net>, Wojciech
Puchar wr
ites:
> >
> > I come from the corporate/government environment, having spent most of
> > my time there. Large datacentres (Canadian spelling), large machines,
> > large networks of machines, large networks. In this environment, today,
> > virtualization in all forms are the platforms of business. Migrations
> > from physical platforms running AIX, Solaris and Linux to either Linux
> > on VMware or Linux containers is where they are putting 100% of their
> > effort. The language of choice is mostly Java. Much of the Java is
> > canned too. What used to be implemented on LAMP stacks is now being
> > implemented using microservices. The platform of choice for
> > microservices is Linux. Stripped down Linux primarily capable of
>
> Just as fashion changes.
Every seven years (approximately) the shift between centralization to
decentralization and back occurs. It started out with reimplementation
of applications once on the mainframe on the PC. It centralized back to
large UNIX servers, back to thick clients, then thin clients, now back
to the cloud. However there is a distinct path by which technology is
evolving. Currently the shift to microservices is making the operating
system irrelevant. The Linux-specific API and ABI is winning. I
predicted this to my management at $JOB almost ten years ago, telling
them the operating system will become a stub. And, here we are.
My points were:
A) FreeBSD needs to become a platform that can host current and
evolving virtualization technologies.
B) FreeBSD should be able to play in the container space similarly to
Linux. Unfortunately I believe that this horse has left the barn and it
may be too late. Then again maybe there is something we can redeem.
> >
> > IMO we have strengths that can immediately be capitalized on, like the
> > Linuxulator. If anything could be in base it might be go, the language
>
> What do you mean "capitalized"?
Made use of.
>
> FreeBSD already allow to do all mentioned things, but anyway someone
> who use FreeBSD is usually smart enough to not blidnly copy what is now
> trendy.
Kind of but we need to play in that space. Look at some of the other
*BSDs, Solaris and AIX. One BSD failed to embrace SMP like we did. They
also failed to embrace vritualization to the degree we did. Except for
a small niche for which they are well known they are a two bit player.
Blindly copy? No. But be able to play somewhere in the space, most
definitely. We have very good technology. The reason we are where we
are is thanks to a large part in our adoption of strategic
technologies. Rust IMO is not strategic. Sure fork FreeBSD and if it's
of benefit import it back. (Even a project branch.) I think we need to
focus our efforts on more productive endeavours. Endeavours that help
maintain the relevance we still have and preferably build on it.
Importing rust will cause a fair bit of churn consuming already meager
developer resources (which is why the cull is planned and in progress),
even of those not directly participating in the project. If we're
looking for work there is a lot out there that will help build on our
market share -- which in turn will increase adoption, which in the long
run will hopefully keep FreeBSD relevant for the long haul.
--
Cheers,
Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
FreeBSD UNIX: <cy@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org
The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
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From: Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>
To: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
cc: Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>,
Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>,
Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com>,
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Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system
components)
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>
> My points were:
>
> A) FreeBSD needs to become a platform that can host current and
> evolving virtualization technologies.
>
> B) FreeBSD should be able to play in the container space similarly to
> Linux. Unfortunately I believe that this horse has left the barn and it
> may be too late. Then again maybe there is something we can redeem.
C) Make FreeBSD like others. So why making FreeBSD?
Not everyone needs the same.
From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Fri Jan 4 19:52:01 2019
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To: Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>
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Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com>,
Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base
system components)
In-Reply-To: Message from Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net> of "Fri,
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In message <alpine.BSF.2.20.1901042023410.22494@puchar.net>, Wojciech
Puchar wr
ites:
> >
> > My points were:
> >
> > A) FreeBSD needs to become a platform that can host current and
> > evolving virtualization technologies.
> >
> > B) FreeBSD should be able to play in the container space similarly to
> > Linux. Unfortunately I believe that this horse has left the barn and it
> > may be too late. Then again maybe there is something we can redeem.
>
> C) Make FreeBSD like others. So why making FreeBSD?
Because we offer some technologies the others do not. Unfortunately
inferior and incompatible approaches (similarly: VHS vs BETA, Blue Ray
vs HD) have left us on the outside. Try porting Kubernetes to FreeBSD.
The technologies used today are more than just fads. They are building
blocks onto which future technologies will be built.
>
> Not everyone needs the same.
Niche. We should be more than simply a desktop O/S (which BTW I use as
my primary desktop) and we should be more than a simple bare metal O/S.
--
Cheers,
Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
FreeBSD UNIX: <cy@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org
The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
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From: Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 20:04:52 +0000
Message-ID: <CADWvR2j+0qYEz03bkF09TEAN5yjpKZ9f25MawVHt_5n_QkgPbA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system
components)
To: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
Cc: Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
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On Fri, 4 Jan 2019 at 19:51, Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com> wrote:
<snip>
> Niche. We should be more than simply a desktop O/S (which BTW I use as
> my primary desktop) and we should be more than a simple bare metal O/S.
Interesting, back in the 90s I went for FreeBSD (and stuck with it)
for the exact opposite reasons: it was a no thrills bare metal OS that
didn't try to be "everything" like Linux distros were! :-))
--
Igor M.
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To: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
cc: Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>, Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com>,
Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>,
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Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system
components)
In-reply-to: <201901041951.x04Jppo2029486@slippy.cwsent.com>
From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" <phk@phk.freebsd.dk>
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--------
In message <201901041951.x04Jppo2029486@slippy.cwsent.com>, Cy Schubert wr=
ites:
>The technologies used today are more than just fads. They are building =
>blocks onto which future technologies will be built.
Or has history has repeatedly taught people who thought they were
home free: Rapidly replaced when somebody gets a better idea.
Both as far as containers and systemd, there is a LOT of room for improvem=
ent.
FreeBSD should aim for that room, rather than become "Linux-sans-GPL"
-- =
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe =
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence=
.
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To: "Poul-Henning Kamp" <phk@phk.freebsd.dk>
cc: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>,
Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>, Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com>,
Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>,
Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base
system components)
In-Reply-To: Message from "Poul-Henning Kamp" <phk@phk.freebsd.dk>
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In message <78893.1546632591@critter.freebsd.dk>, "Poul-Henning Kamp"
writes:
> --------
> In message <201901041951.x04Jppo2029486@slippy.cwsent.com>, Cy Schubert write
> s:
>
> >The technologies used today are more than just fads. They are building
> >blocks onto which future technologies will be built.
>
> Or has history has repeatedly taught people who thought they were
> home free: Rapidly replaced when somebody gets a better idea.
>
> Both as far as containers and systemd, there is a LOT of room for improvement
> .
>
> FreeBSD should aim for that room, rather than become "Linux-sans-GPL"
We should try to fit into the datacentre.
--
Cheers,
Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
FreeBSD UNIX: <cy@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org
The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
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To: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
cc: Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>, Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com>,
Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>,
Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system
components)
In-reply-to: <201901042142.x04LgKkQ045885@slippy.cwsent.com>
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--------
In message <201901042142.x04LgKkQ045885@slippy.cwsent.com>, Cy Schubert wr=
ites:
>> FreeBSD should aim for that room, rather than become "Linux-sans-GPL"
>
>We should try to fit into the datacentre.
... and RPi's, access-points, NAS devices, routers, televisions, photocopi=
ers,
sewage-treatment-plant-monitoring, high-voltage-switching,
stock-trading, air-traffic-control, scientific super-computing,
antiproliferation-monitoring, laptops, desktops and ...
I hope you get the point ?
-- =
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe =
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence=
.
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To: "Poul-Henning Kamp" <phk@phk.freebsd.dk>
cc: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>,
Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>, Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com>,
Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>,
Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base
system components)
In-Reply-To: Message from "Poul-Henning Kamp" <phk@phk.freebsd.dk>
of "Fri, 04 Jan 2019 22:02:47 +0000." <79361.1546639367@critter.freebsd.dk>
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In message <79361.1546639367@critter.freebsd.dk>, "Poul-Henning Kamp"
writes:
> --------
> In message <201901042142.x04LgKkQ045885@slippy.cwsent.com>, Cy Schubert write
> s:
>
> >> FreeBSD should aim for that room, rather than become "Linux-sans-GPL"
> >
> >We should try to fit into the datacentre.
>
> ... and RPi's, access-points, NAS devices, routers, televisions, photocopiers
> ,
> sewage-treatment-plant-monitoring, high-voltage-switching,
> stock-trading, air-traffic-control, scientific super-computing,
> antiproliferation-monitoring, laptops, desktops and ...
>
> I hope you get the point ?
That's exactly my point. What subset of things can and should we focus
on?
Adding or replacing a language or languages in base should be
consistent with the long-term direction of The Project. What is that?
Getting back to why this sub-thread was spawned off the main thread in
the first place: Is it strategic to add rust to base? (Remember when
Perl was in base?)
--
Cheers,
Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
FreeBSD UNIX: <cy@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org
The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
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Message-Id: <201901042219.x04MJf4w085379@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net>
Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system
components)
In-Reply-To: <79361.1546639367@critter.freebsd.dk>
To: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freebsd.dk>
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 14:19:41 -0800 (PST)
CC: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>,
Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>,
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> --------
> In message <201901042142.x04LgKkQ045885@slippy.cwsent.com>, Cy Schubert writes:
>
> >> FreeBSD should aim for that room, rather than become "Linux-sans-GPL"
> >
> >We should try to fit into the datacentre.
>
> ... and RPi's, access-points, NAS devices, routers, televisions, photocopiers,
> sewage-treatment-plant-monitoring, high-voltage-switching,
> stock-trading, air-traffic-control, scientific super-computing,
> antiproliferation-monitoring, laptops, desktops and ...
As far as I am concerned Linux can have the datacenter...
I find this list much more interesting :-)
> I hope you get the point ?
:-)
>
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list
> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"
>
--
Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org
From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Fri Jan 4 22:30:08 2019
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
From: Kristof Provost <kp@FreeBSD.org>
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In-Reply-To: <361CCB81-AEB6-4EAC-9604-CD8F4C63948C@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 11:29:55 +1300
Cc: Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net>, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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> On 4 Jan 2019, at 05:22, Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>> On Jan 3, 2019, at 04:46, Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net> wrote:
>>=20
>> On 1/2/19 1:29 PM, Cy Schubert wrote:
>>=20
>>>> I'm all for discussion and criticism of this, that's why I posted it,
>>>> but I don't think these kinds of false equivalences are helpful.
>>>=20
>>> Actually it is helpful. Without a solid proposal of a new feature or=20
>>> userland utility to be imported into base that requires the support of=20=
>>> a language not already in base, the implication of the original email=20=
>>> starting this thread was to rewrite FreeBSD using rust.
>>=20
>> That doesn't represent what I wrote at all, and is bordering on a
>> strawman argument. Nobody to my knowledge is suggesting rewriting
>> everything, nor would that be possible.
>>=20
>>> In reality we should rely more on ports. Over the years this business=20=
>>> has become more fragmented. Each year we see new languages being=20
>>> developed and used. Importing new shiny objects into base is=20
>>> unsustainable. IMO the momentum is behind containerization,=20
>>> specifically kubernetes and docker-like containers. That is today. The=20=
>>> next year or two will introduce new technologies and shiny objects=20
>>> which we will likely need to introduce here to remain relevant. We=20
>>> should be looking to reduce the footprint of base, introduce new=20
>>> technologies in ports (ports are much easier to build from scratch,=20
>>> maintain, and update than base). Additionally the idea of meta-ports=20
>>> that install groups of packages would make building purpose-built=20
>>> systems a breeze for our user base, similar to what anaconda does, like=20=
>>> a FreeBSD based LAMP (FAMP) stack package that installs all the=20
>>> necessary bits with one pkg install command.
>>=20
>> And that seems to be the point of convergence in all this, which is fine
>> by me. I was looking to discuss the options and figure out the best way
>> forward.
>=20
> Going back to my previous statement, I think writing a service monitor (to=
work alongside init and rc) in modern C++/rust would be a good item to unde=
rtake.
>=20
> I=E2=80=99d be willing to do this with someone else, as a research project=
/to demo how rust could be used.
I think that=E2=80=99s an excellent idea, and would be interested in trying t=
o help out with it.=20
Regards,
Kristof=
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To: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
cc: Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>, Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com>,
Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>,
Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system
components)
In-reply-to: <201901042217.x04MHWaE046238@slippy.cwsent.com>
From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" <phk@phk.freebsd.dk>
References: <201901042217.x04MHWaE046238@slippy.cwsent.com>
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--------
In message <201901042217.x04MHWaE046238@slippy.cwsent.com>, Cy Schubert wr=
ites:
>In message <79361.1546639367@critter.freebsd.dk>, "Poul-Henning Kamp" =
>writes:
>That's exactly my point. What subset of things can and should we focus on=
?
Whatever you as a contributor needs and enjoys.
>Adding or replacing a language or languages in base should be =
>consistent with the long-term direction of The Project.
Forget adding new botique languages to base: That's not happening
any time soon, if ever, for all the reasons already enumerated.
Until somebody comes up with an
AbsolutelyMustHaveBeforePackagesCanBeInstalled program written in
$Language, $LanguageCompiler stays in ports where it belongs.
-- =
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe =
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence=
.
From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Fri Jan 4 22:42:34 2019
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To: "Rodney W. Grimes" <freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net>
cc: Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>, Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com>,
Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>,
Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system
components)
In-reply-to: <201901042219.x04MJf4w085379@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net>
From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" <phk@phk.freebsd.dk>
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--------
In message <201901042219.x04MJf4w085379@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net>, "Rodney W=
. Grimes" writes:
>> ... and RPi's, access-points, NAS devices, routers, televisions, photoc=
opiers,
>> sewage-treatment-plant-monitoring, high-voltage-switching,
>> stock-trading, air-traffic-control, scientific super-computing,
>> antiproliferation-monitoring, laptops, desktops and ...
>
>As far as I am concerned Linux can have the datacenter...
>I find this list much more interesting :-)
Me too.
Data-centers are booooring!
-- =
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe =
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence=
.
From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sat Jan 5 15:07:11 2019
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Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 16:07:06 +0100 (CET)
From: Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>
To: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
cc: Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>,
Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>,
Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com>,
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Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system
components)
In-Reply-To: <201901041951.x04Jppo2029486@slippy.cwsent.com>
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>>> A) FreeBSD needs to become a platform that can host current and
>>> evolving virtualization technologies.
>>>
>>> B) FreeBSD should be able to play in the container space similarly to
>>> Linux. Unfortunately I believe that this horse has left the barn and it
>>> may be too late. Then again maybe there is something we can redeem.
>>
>> C) Make FreeBSD like others. So why making FreeBSD?
>
> Because we offer some technologies the others do not. Unfortunately
> inferior and incompatible approaches (similarly: VHS vs BETA, Blue Ray
> vs HD) have left us on the outside. Try porting Kubernetes to FreeBSD.
no need to.
>
> The technologies used today are more than just fads. They are building
> blocks onto which future technologies will be built.
>
and this is really sad.
>>
>> Not everyone needs the same.
>
> Niche. We should be more than simply a desktop O/S (which BTW I use as
> my primary desktop) and we should be more than a simple bare metal O/S.
Simple bare metal O/S is what is really needed.
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Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 16:08:22 +0100 (CET)
From: Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>
To: Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>
cc: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>,
Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system
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>
>> Niche. We should be more than simply a desktop O/S (which BTW I use as
>> my primary desktop) and we should be more than a simple bare metal O/S.
>
> Interesting, back in the 90s I went for FreeBSD (and stuck with it)
> for the exact opposite reasons: it was a no thrills bare metal OS that
> didn't try to be "everything" like Linux distros were! :-))
And that's the reason i use it for everything.
I don't need to do fashionable things, as large corporations do this en
masse for dumb masses, and few others blidnly repeating the same.
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Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 16:15:26 +0100 (CET)
From: Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>
To: "David \"Sid\" Olofsson" <contact@sidju.se>
cc: wojtek@puchar.net, Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org,
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Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system
components)
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> I agree. I find that FreeBSD's jail system is the best virtualization available now and don't see the reason to start poking around
> with Docker and similar.
Agree. You don't have directories named with random hex numbers. you
simply know what is where.
While i've used jails a lot i recently use it rarely. Because i
found that usually they are not needed. Standard unix protection
mechanisms (processes, users, groups) are just fine. For example apache
runs just fine as user.
I completely don't understand why the fashionable microservices (which are
not bad idea as they should have dependencies) needs jail-like
environments, instead of simply running a process in a separate user account.
What is wrong in ALL systems today are shared libraries or languages
(like python or perl) that depends on millions of files. Getting rid of
them will make "microservice" idea the right way.
Simply having static executable to be run. Or multiple static executables
communicating by pipes.
So "microservices" means rediscovering 1980-style (and earlier) way of
writing programs. Rediscovering but with of course messy way.
From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sat Jan 5 15:16:17 2019
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From: Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>
To: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freebsd.dk>
cc: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>,
Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>,
Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>,
Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com>, Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>
Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system
components)
In-Reply-To: <78893.1546632591@critter.freebsd.dk>
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> home free: Rapidly replaced when somebody gets a better idea.
>
> Both as far as containers and systemd, there is a LOT of room for improvement.
as of systemd the best "room for improvement" is deleting it.
> FreeBSD should aim for that room, rather than become "Linux-sans-GPL"
Definitely not systemd alike. Current mechanisms are fine.
From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sat Jan 5 15:16:38 2019
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Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 16:16:39 +0100 (CET)
From: Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>
To: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
cc: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freebsd.dk>,
Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>,
Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>,
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Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system
components)
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>> .
>>
>> FreeBSD should aim for that room, rather than become "Linux-sans-GPL"
>
> We should try to fit into the datacentre.
>
To whose gain?
From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sat Jan 5 15:18:38 2019
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Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 16:18:41 +0100 (CET)
From: Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>
To: Kristof Provost <kp@FreeBSD.org>
cc: Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com>, Eric McCorkle <eric@metricspace.net>,
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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>>> forward.
>>
>> Going back to my previous statement, I think writing a service monitor (to work alongside init and rc) in modern C++/rust would be a good item to undertake.
>>
>> I’d be willing to do this with someone else, as a research project/to demo how rust could be used.
>
>
> I think that’s an excellent idea, and would be interested in trying to help out with it.
>
Great. So do it, just don't try to push FreeBSD to use it in base.
Of course add a port to FreeBSD when done :)
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From: Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 15:20:09 +0000
Message-ID: <CADWvR2iGC2PvmiCJQ6j4f+MOAeDvhJuyvucQCbrBka_xE5uXOA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system
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On Sat, 5 Jan 2019 at 15:15, Wojciech Puchar wrote:
<snip>
> What is wrong in ALL systems today are shared libraries or languages
> (like python or perl) that depends on millions of files. Getting rid of
> them will make "microservice" idea the right way.
>
> Simply having static executable to be run. Or multiple static executables
> communicating by pipes.
Couldn't agree more: when I did run jails, I would just compile a
static binary and jail that process (of course devd made that a bit of
a pain, but eventually you can figure out what's needed to have a
single statically-linked binary jail without the bloat).
--
Igor M.
From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sat Jan 5 15:32:48 2019
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From: Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>
To: Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>
cc: Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>,
Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system
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>> (like python or perl) that depends on millions of files. Getting rid of
>> them will make "microservice" idea the right way.
>>
>> Simply having static executable to be run. Or multiple static executables
>> communicating by pipes.
>
> Couldn't agree more: when I did run jails, I would just compile a
> static binary and jail that process (of course devd made that a bit of
> a pain, but eventually you can figure out what's needed to have a
> single statically-linked binary jail without the bloat).
i usually don't run devd.
Why can't you run your static binary simply as user?
From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sat Jan 5 16:30:54 2019
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From: Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 16:30:09 +0000
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Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system
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On Sat, 5 Jan 2019 at 15:32, Wojciech Puchar wrote:
<snip>
> Why can't you run your static binary simply as user?
I'm sure there was a good reason for doing so, but it was over a
decade ago and for the life of me I can't remember what that reason
was...
--
Igor M.
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To: Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>
cc: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>,
Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freebsd.dk>,
Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>,
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Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base
system components)
In-Reply-To: Message from Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net> of "Sat,
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In message <alpine.BSF.2.20.1901051616230.99904@puchar.net>, Wojciech
Puchar wr
ites:
> >> .
> >>
> >> FreeBSD should aim for that room, rather than become "Linux-sans-GPL"
> >
> > We should try to fit into the datacentre.
> >
> To whose gain?
To our gain. Look at illumos, a hobbyists O/S. Do we want to become
that?
We should aim for the broadest base possible. The desktop is not
enough. Neither is a tinkerers toy either.
--
Cheers,
Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
FreeBSD UNIX: <cy@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org
The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
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To: Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>
cc: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>,
Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base
system components)
In-Reply-To: Message from Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net> of "Sat,
05 Jan 2019 16:07:06 +0100." <alpine.BSF.2.20.1901051606240.99904@puchar.net>
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In message <alpine.BSF.2.20.1901051606240.99904@puchar.net>, Wojciech
Puchar wr
ites:
> >>> A) FreeBSD needs to become a platform that can host current and
> >>> evolving virtualization technologies.
> >>>
> >>> B) FreeBSD should be able to play in the container space similarly to
> >>> Linux. Unfortunately I believe that this horse has left the barn and it
> >>> may be too late. Then again maybe there is something we can redeem.
> >>
> >> C) Make FreeBSD like others. So why making FreeBSD?
> >
> > Because we offer some technologies the others do not. Unfortunately
> > inferior and incompatible approaches (similarly: VHS vs BETA, Blue Ray
> > vs HD) have left us on the outside. Try porting Kubernetes to FreeBSD.
> no need to.
>
> >
> > The technologies used today are more than just fads. They are building
> > blocks onto which future technologies will be built.
> >
> and this is really sad.
Sure. What is really sad is that the world has moved on. I would love
to still do kernel programming on the IBM mainframe. That's not
possible. There used to be half a dozen IBM mainframe datacentres in my
home town and two in the city I currently live in when I moved here.
Now there are none in both places. We can cry the blues that life isn't
what it used to be or we can move on.
One person I once worked with attempted suicide because his beloved
mainframe here was no more.
Old technologies aren't as relevant as they used to be. Nostalgia for
days gone by isn't going to make those days come back. Only supporting
old hardware and only maintaining old paradigms will announce, FreeBSD
is dying. Do you want that? Get over it and move on.
>
> >>
> >> Not everyone needs the same.
> >
> > Niche. We should be more than simply a desktop O/S (which BTW I use as
> > my primary desktop) and we should be more than a simple bare metal O/S.
>
> Simple bare metal O/S is what is really needed.
They all do that. What else can we bring to the table?
One of the questions to be answered is where do we want to be in five
years? Stuck in the past?
This sub-thread was meant to have us consider importing rust in the
bigger scheme of things. My point is, before we do anything, like add a
shiny new feature or cull some old code, does this align with where we
want to be in two or five years?
--
Cheers,
Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
FreeBSD UNIX: <cy@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org
The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
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Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system
components)
From: Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com>
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In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1901051606240.99904@puchar.net>
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 10:38:27 -0800
Cc: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>,
Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>,
Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
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<alpine.BSF.2.20.1901051606240.99904@puchar.net>
To: Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>
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On Jan 5, 2019, at 07:07, Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net> wrote:
>>>> A) FreeBSD needs to become a platform that can host current and
>>>> evolving virtualization technologies.
>>>>=20
>>>> B) FreeBSD should be able to play in the container space similarly to
>>>> Linux. Unfortunately I believe that this horse has left the barn and it=
>>>> may be too late. Then again maybe there is something we can redeem.
>>>=20
>>> C) Make FreeBSD like others. So why making FreeBSD?
>>=20
>> Because we offer some technologies the others do not. Unfortunately
>> inferior and incompatible approaches (similarly: VHS vs BETA, Blue Ray
>> vs HD) have left us on the outside. Try porting Kubernetes to FreeBSD.
> no need to.
Actually, not having Docker/Kubernetes support makes it more difficult to ri=
de the CI/distributed system wave, requiring FreeBSD to reinvent the wheel t=
o do CI, and force various groups to write their own homegrown distributed s=
ystems infrastructures instead of leveraging existing technologies.
>> The technologies used today are more than just fads. They are building
>> blocks onto which future technologies will be built.
>>=20
> and this is really sad.
Not really. It=E2=80=99s a sign of maturity as most things now run on a =E2=80=
=9Ccloud based=E2=80=9D infrastructure, or small embedded OSes running embed=
ded Linux (not FreeBSD).
>>> Not everyone needs the same.
>>=20
>> Niche. We should be more than simply a desktop O/S (which BTW I use as
>> my primary desktop) and we should be more than a simple bare metal O/S.
>=20
> Simple bare metal O/S is what is really needed.
Not really. As Cy pointed out, in order to ensure that FreeBSD is well-suppo=
rted by large companies (Dell, Facebook via WhatsApp, Juniper, and Sony were=
some of the large contributors over the past couple years, along with a hos=
t of other smaller storage companies), so it continues to exist in a healthy=
way, it needs to be dynamic and customizable to meet the needs from embedde=
d development up to large-scale distributed systems. A number of these compa=
nies have considered switching away from FreeBSD to Linux because FreeBSD is=
niche (see Microsoft with Hotmail, Yahoo, etc). Let=E2=80=99s not give deve=
lopers willing to make the switch more ammunition to do so.
Cheers,
-Enji=
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Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system
components)
From: Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com>
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Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 10:52:50 -0800
Cc: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>,
Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>,
Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>,
Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>
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To: Alan Somers <asomers@freebsd.org>
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> On Jan 3, 2019, at 14:51, Alan Somers <asomers@freebsd.org> wrote:
>=20
>> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 3:29 PM Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com> wr=
ote:
>>=20
>> In message <alpine.BSF.2.20.1901032030260.40635@puchar.net>, Wojciech
>> Puchar wr
>> ites:
>>>>> That's precisely how ideas that most people disagree with get *pushed*=
>>>>> through by evangelists with confirmation bias! Like someone said
>>>>> earlier in the discussion: does Rust add anything? The answer is a
>>>>> resounding NO, save for bloat.
>>>>=20
>>>> And this is why one reason people say =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93FreeBSD is d=
ying=C3=A2=E2=82=AC .
>>>>=20
>>> dying for whom?
>>=20
>> Not to answer this question but to think strategically:
>>=20
>> I come from the corporate/government environment, having spent most of
>> my time there. Large datacentres (Canadian spelling), large machines,
>> large networks of machines, large networks. In this environment, today,
>> virtualization in all forms are the platforms of business. Migrations
>> from physical platforms running AIX, Solaris and Linux to either Linux
>> on VMware or Linux containers is where they are putting 100% of their
>> effort. The language of choice is mostly Java. Much of the Java is
>> canned too. What used to be implemented on LAMP stacks is now being
>> implemented using microservices. The platform of choice for
>> microservices is Linux. Stripped down Linux primarily capable of
>> supporting microservices. And now at $JOB we're talking about running
>> microservices on Linux VMs -- virtualization on virtualization, on a
>> virtual network (NSX). My customers are working on microservices and
>> containers that can be migrated from their private cloud to the public
>> cloud and back again easily.
>>=20
>> Even Microsoft is working on a container strategy. The future is
>> containers. The desktop platform isn't nearly as important any more.
>> And, the physical server, its location, what it runs on and who runs it
>> are also less important. What is important is the speed and cost
>> effectiveness of standing up applications.
>>=20
>> IMO we have strengths that can immediately be capitalized on, like the
>> Linuxulator. If anything could be in base it might be go, the language
>> Kubernetes is written in -- don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating
>> importing go into base. Having said that, transforming FreeBSD into a
>> PaaS platform, tying it all together using Kubernetes would position
>> FreeBSD for the future to come. Maybe I'm talking myself into go and
>> Kubernetes in base but maybe this could just as easily be done in ports.
>>=20
>> Think about this: Kubernetes in base or ports, using the Linuxulator
>> and jails (or an implementation of cgroups and namespaces constructs in
>> addition to jails). Bhyve and jails provide the enterprise with other
>> virtualization options such that a FreeBSD host could host Linux or
>> FreeBSD containers, Windows or other VMs, and FreeBSD jails, all on one
>> or a cluster of FreeBSD hosts, possibly part of a heterogeneous cluster.
>>=20
>> This IMO would position FreeBSD for the future.
>>=20
>> Maybe go and Kubernetes? Let's not be left behind.
>>=20
>>=20
>> --
>> Cheers,
>> Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
>> FreeBSD UNIX: <cy@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org
>>=20
>> The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
>=20
> FreeBSD support in Kubernetes would be great, but I don't think
> there's any reason to put it into base.
+1. Kubernetes should remain as a port, given the development process that Fa=
cebook and Google use being out of step with the BSDs (backwards compatibili=
ty to the degree that BSD wants is generally a lower priority item).
> The interesting thing about
> Rust is that it's so good at low-level work. As we discussed,
> Johannes Lundberg has written a device driver in Rust. And Fabian
> Freyer is working on jail(3) and jail(8) replacements in Rust. Enji
> is thinking about writing an rc(8) replacement in Rust.
Sidenote: not wanting to do an rc(8) replacement. More like a system monitor=
of sorts, paralleling what devd does with device events and such.
> These are the
> kind of projects that make sense to do in base, apart from the
> language barrier. Go, I think, would be just fine remaining in ports.
> If I were to pick any language other than Rust to add to the base
> system, it might be Lua.
Lua=E2=80=99s already in base =E2=80=94 the bootloader is being rewritten fr=
om forth to Lua.
> Though high level, its embeddable and nicely
> complements C and Rust. That's why it's used internally in Kyua, and
> it even in the NetBSD kernel.
And Linux kernel for that matter, iirc. It=E2=80=99s a wonderful, stripped d=
own language. It=E2=80=99s just a bit awkward to write because its lexicogra=
phy/grammar matches pure mathematics as opposed to many other C-like languag=
es.
Thanks :),
-Enji=
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Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system
components)
From: Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com>
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Cc: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>,
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On Jan 5, 2019, at 07:16, Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net> wrote:
>>> .
>>>=20
>>> FreeBSD should aim for that room, rather than become "Linux-sans-GPL"
>>=20
>> We should try to fit into the datacentre.
>>=20
> To whose gain?
See my previous reply: Dell (Isilon, etc), Juniper, Panasas (sp?), Sandvine,=
WhatsApp (Facebook), etc.
Example: Facebook has toyed around with converting their entire WhatsApp fle=
et away from FreeBSD in the datacenter to FB Linux. Let=E2=80=99s give them l=
ess ammo to do so. They were a major financial contributor to the FreeBSD pr=
oject back a couple years ago, so like it or not, having FreeBSD be a compel=
ling project is helping finance your =E2=80=9Chobby OS=E2=80=9D.
Cheers,
-Enji=
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Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base
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In message <0EB517DF-376E-435A-B24D-A4964D0F148F@gmail.com>, Enji
Cooper writes
:
> On Jan 5, 2019, at 07:07, Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net> wrote:
>
> >>>> A) FreeBSD needs to become a platform that can host current and
> >>>> evolving virtualization technologies.
> >>>>
> >>>> B) FreeBSD should be able to play in the container space similarly to
> >>>> Linux. Unfortunately I believe that this horse has left the barn and it
> >>>> may be too late. Then again maybe there is something we can redeem.
> >>>
> >>> C) Make FreeBSD like others. So why making FreeBSD?
> >>
> >> Because we offer some technologies the others do not. Unfortunately
> >> inferior and incompatible approaches (similarly: VHS vs BETA, Blue Ray
> >> vs HD) have left us on the outside. Try porting Kubernetes to FreeBSD.
> > no need to.
>
> Actually, not having Docker/Kubernetes support makes it more difficult to rid
> e the CI/distributed system wave, requiring FreeBSD to reinvent the wheel to
> do CI, and force various groups to write their own homegrown distributed syst
> ems infrastructures instead of leveraging existing technologies.
I'm puttering around with Kubernetes and Docker. However there are
other things on my plate that IMO are more urgent. Multitasking.
--
Cheers,
Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
FreeBSD UNIX: <cy@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org
The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
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To: Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com>
cc: Alan Somers <asomers@freebsd.org>, Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>,
Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>,
Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>,
Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base
system components)
In-Reply-To: Message from Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com> of "Sat,
05 Jan 2019 10:52:50 -0800." <F4A2607D-BB3E-4D00-B8D9-C633DB7C0102@gmail.com>
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In message <F4A2607D-BB3E-4D00-B8D9-C633DB7C0102@gmail.com>, Enji
Cooper writes
:
>
>
> > On Jan 3, 2019, at 14:51, Alan Somers <asomers@freebsd.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 3:29 PM Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com> wro
> te:
> >>
> >> In message <alpine.BSF.2.20.1901032030260.40635@puchar.net>, Wojciech
> >> Puchar wr
> >> ites:
> >>>>> That's precisely how ideas that most people disagree with get *pushed*
> >>>>> through by evangelists with confirmation bias! Like someone said
> >>>>> earlier in the discussion: does Rust add anything? The answer is a
> >>>>> resounding NO, save for bloat.
> >>>>
> >>>> And this is why one reason people say “FreeBSD is dying†.
> >>>>
> >>> dying for whom?
> >>
> >> Not to answer this question but to think strategically:
> >>
> >> I come from the corporate/government environment, having spent most of
> >> my time there. Large datacentres (Canadian spelling), large machines,
> >> large networks of machines, large networks. In this environment, today,
> >> virtualization in all forms are the platforms of business. Migrations
> >> from physical platforms running AIX, Solaris and Linux to either Linux
> >> on VMware or Linux containers is where they are putting 100% of their
> >> effort. The language of choice is mostly Java. Much of the Java is
> >> canned too. What used to be implemented on LAMP stacks is now being
> >> implemented using microservices. The platform of choice for
> >> microservices is Linux. Stripped down Linux primarily capable of
> >> supporting microservices. And now at $JOB we're talking about running
> >> microservices on Linux VMs -- virtualization on virtualization, on a
> >> virtual network (NSX). My customers are working on microservices and
> >> containers that can be migrated from their private cloud to the public
> >> cloud and back again easily.
> >>
> >> Even Microsoft is working on a container strategy. The future is
> >> containers. The desktop platform isn't nearly as important any more.
> >> And, the physical server, its location, what it runs on and who runs it
> >> are also less important. What is important is the speed and cost
> >> effectiveness of standing up applications.
> >>
> >> IMO we have strengths that can immediately be capitalized on, like the
> >> Linuxulator. If anything could be in base it might be go, the language
> >> Kubernetes is written in -- don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating
> >> importing go into base. Having said that, transforming FreeBSD into a
> >> PaaS platform, tying it all together using Kubernetes would position
> >> FreeBSD for the future to come. Maybe I'm talking myself into go and
> >> Kubernetes in base but maybe this could just as easily be done in ports.
> >>
> >> Think about this: Kubernetes in base or ports, using the Linuxulator
> >> and jails (or an implementation of cgroups and namespaces constructs in
> >> addition to jails). Bhyve and jails provide the enterprise with other
> >> virtualization options such that a FreeBSD host could host Linux or
> >> FreeBSD containers, Windows or other VMs, and FreeBSD jails, all on one
> >> or a cluster of FreeBSD hosts, possibly part of a heterogeneous cluster.
> >>
> >> This IMO would position FreeBSD for the future.
> >>
> >> Maybe go and Kubernetes? Let's not be left behind.
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Cheers,
> >> Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
> >> FreeBSD UNIX: <cy@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org
> >>
> >> The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
> >
> > FreeBSD support in Kubernetes would be great, but I don't think
> > there's any reason to put it into base.
>
> +1. Kubernetes should remain as a port, given the development process that Fa
> cebook and Google use being out of step with the BSDs (backwards compatibilit
> y to the degree that BSD wants is generally a lower priority item).
It's not a port yet but it will be. I prefer a smaller base relying on
ports instead.
--
Cheers,
Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
FreeBSD UNIX: <cy@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org
The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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> On Jan 3, 2019, at 12:24, Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk> wrote:
...
> And by what metric is that "safety" measured, how does one measure
> "safety" objectively? To me, that sounds like a techie version of
> virtue-signalling... Even the Rust-clan seem to be rather confused
> about it: https://doc.rust-lang.org/nomicon/meet-safe-and-unsafe.html
It=E2=80=99s pretty clear to me what the author means: rust features safe an=
d unsafe extensions, much like C++, Java, Perl, python, tcl, etc. Generally s=
peaking, =E2=80=9Cunsafe=E2=80=9D language features are those that require a=
dditional care, like using malloc/free appropriately, avoiding global state,=
locking resources as needed, etc.
> Btw, Java is "safe" too, and it's been around for *much* longer!
Not necessarily true. Are you aware of how native java extensions work?
Java as a language was written to be generic/platform agnostic, however in o=
rder to be useful, Java requires platform extensions. As such, Java supports=
developers writing glue code in C/C++ (like python extensions), which can h=
ave a host of potential issues with memory leaks, concurrency safety, etc, i=
n addition to potential issues with security sandboxing and the like.
With the number of zero-day bugs in java that have been in the language in t=
he past few years, I don=E2=80=99t trust the language=E2=80=99s sense of saf=
ety in terms of memory management and sandboxing in the JVM.
Thanks,
-Enji=
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
From: Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com>
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Cc: Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>,
Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>,
Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>
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To: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com>
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> On Jan 3, 2019, at 11:44, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
>=20
>> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 12:32 PM Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net> wrote=
:
>> >> That's precisely how ideas that most people disagree with get *pushed*=
>> >> through by evangelists with confirmation bias! Like someone said
>> >> earlier in the discussion: does Rust add anything? The answer is a
>> >> resounding NO, save for bloat.
>> >
>> > And this is why one reason people say =E2=80=9CFreeBSD is dying=E2=80=9D=
.
>> >
>> dying for whom?
It=E2=80=99s mostly dead to developers I=E2=80=99ve run across. If I had a d=
ime for each time that I heard a sysadmin/SRE say, =E2=80=9Cgee, I like Free=
BSD, but I have to use Linux instead=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cwhat is FreeBSD?=E2=80=
=9D, or =E2=80=9Coh, that OS.=E2=80=9D, I would be a bit richer.
Putting it this way, FreeBSD has been largely displaced by Linux in the data=
center because of mindshare (the large amount of advocacy by sysadmins/SREs,=
available documentation/training, etc), the fact that CI/distributed system=
s/VM support just works (allowing developers to deliver features to market o=
r do opensource development more quickly), the fact that mobile/desktop most=
ly works with little to no tweaking (depending on the GNU/Linux distro/spin)=
, etc.
> And who is getting punished? We're having an interesting discussion about a=
possible new technology to use and developing criteria to know when we will=
know if/when it's useful.
Apologies Warner=E2=80=94my goal in saying =E2=80=9Cshut up and code=E2=80=9D=
(paraphrased), was to avoid continuing a bikeshed discussion, where there d=
idn=E2=80=99t seem to be a lot of positive progress being made.
Repeated statements (over 2x) like =E2=80=9Crust is bloat=E2=80=9D; =E2=80=9C=
rust will never be in the base system=E2=80=9D; etc is imho, non-constructiv=
e criticism. That=E2=80=99s more of where I was trying to come from with my r=
eply to this subthread a couple days ago.
Thank you for asking and pointing this fact out. I=E2=80=99m totally ok with=
continuing constructive discussion on the merits/demerits of python, rust, e=
tc (keyword being constructive).
Thank you very much,
-Enji=
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Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
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> On Jan 3, 2019, at 10:20, Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk> wrote:
>=20
>> On Thu, 3 Jan 2019 at 17:41, Enji Cooper wrote:
>>=20
>> Igor,
>>=20
>>> On Jan 3, 2019, at 08:32, Igor Mozolevsky wrote:
>>>=20
>>> That's precisely how ideas that most people disagree with get *pushed*
>>> through by evangelists with confirmation bias! Like someone said
>>> earlier in the discussion: does Rust add anything? The answer is a
>>> resounding NO, save for bloat.
>>=20
>> And this is why one reason people say =E2=80=9CFreeBSD is dying=E2=80=9D.=
>>=20
>> If we stuck with status quo, we wouldn=E2=80=99t have llvm, would use jus=
t PowerPC/I
>=20
> Really, FreeBSD is dying because people don't want to experiment with
> "new toys" that have *not* been proven to be effective at what they
> claim to do while having been proven to be a bloat? Really, that's
> your argument? Well, like And there I was thinking it way dying
> because of long-term "issues" like this one:
> https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D203874 that prevent
> me (and I suspect many many others) from virtualising FreeBSD and
> causing a switch to the various flavours of Linux!
Totally valid point. Given that I run VMware, I would like to see that fixed=
as well.
> Like Wojciech said, absolutely nothing prevents you from forking off a
> branch and even re-writing the entire code in Rust, just don't turn
> around and say "I spend X amount of time on it therefore it must be
> integrated into FreeBSD-proper regardless of the numerous shortfalls"!
> As it stands the base install is too large as it is, and I have
> recompile the whole thing with a whole bunch of WITHOUTs already, and
> you're saying more bloatware should be added.
I did my best to add those MK_* knobs a few years ago to speed up the build.=
I=E2=80=99m glad it=E2=80=99s usable..
> Maintainability is not about code, it's about people's skills and
> documentation, if one is inept at C, or Python, what on Earth makes
> you think they would write amazing code in Rust? Your argument simply
> doesn't follow there at all.
CompSci courses in the US (at least) has curricula which is based on Java/py=
thon.
I had a hard enough time getting people to write modern C at Facebook (the p=
rimary language was modern C++ for infra, with Java and Python being other c=
ommonly used languages). People as a whole don=E2=80=99t like raw=20
>> Tl;Dr: if you don=E2=80=99t have anything constructive to say, please ret=
hink your replies and provide constructive criticism. Constructive criticism=
is welcome. Armchair nitpicking is not.
>=20
> Here's my constructive criticism: don't waste resources on an unproven
> and still-evolving language; if you have *that* much free time on your han=
ds
> start working through BugZilla.
>=20
>=20
> --
> Igor M.
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To: Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com>
cc: Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>,
Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>,
Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>,
Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base
system components)
In-Reply-To: Message from Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com> of "Sat,
05 Jan 2019 10:38:27 -0800." <0EB517DF-376E-435A-B24D-A4964D0F148F@gmail.com>
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In message <0EB517DF-376E-435A-B24D-A4964D0F148F@gmail.com>, Enji
Cooper writes
:
> On Jan 5, 2019, at 07:07, Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net> wrote:
>
> >>>> A) FreeBSD needs to become a platform that can host current and
> >>>> evolving virtualization technologies.
> >>>>
> >>>> B) FreeBSD should be able to play in the container space similarly to
> >>>> Linux. Unfortunately I believe that this horse has left the barn and it
> >>>> may be too late. Then again maybe there is something we can redeem.
> >>>
> >>> C) Make FreeBSD like others. So why making FreeBSD?
> >>
> >> Because we offer some technologies the others do not. Unfortunately
> >> inferior and incompatible approaches (similarly: VHS vs BETA, Blue Ray
> >> vs HD) have left us on the outside. Try porting Kubernetes to FreeBSD.
> > no need to.
>
> Actually, not having Docker/Kubernetes support makes it more difficult to rid
> e the CI/distributed system wave, requiring FreeBSD to reinvent the wheel to
> do CI, and force various groups to write their own homegrown distributed syst
> ems infrastructures instead of leveraging existing technologies.
>
> >> The technologies used today are more than just fads. They are building
> >> blocks onto which future technologies will be built.
> >>
> > and this is really sad.
>
> Not really. It’s a sign of maturity as most things now run on a “cloud ba
> sed†infrastructure, or small embedded OSes running embedded Linux (not Fre
> eBSD).
>
> >>> Not everyone needs the same.
> >>
> >> Niche. We should be more than simply a desktop O/S (which BTW I use as
> >> my primary desktop) and we should be more than a simple bare metal O/S.
> >
> > Simple bare metal O/S is what is really needed.
>
> Not really. As Cy pointed out, in order to ensure that FreeBSD is well-suppor
> ted by large companies (Dell, Facebook via WhatsApp, Juniper, and Sony were s
> ome of the large contributors over the past couple years, along with a host o
> f other smaller storage companies), so it continues to exist in a healthy way
> , it needs to be dynamic and customizable to meet the needs from embedded dev
> elopment up to large-scale distributed systems. A number of these companies h
> ave considered switching away from FreeBSD to Linux because FreeBSD is niche
> (see Microsoft with Hotmail, Yahoo, etc). Let’s not give developers willing
> to make the switch more ammunition to do so.
This has everything to do with relevance. Look at where illumos and all
the other *BSDs are. They're pretty much hobbyist operating systems.
The discussion on an illumos developers mailing list has given me that
impression as well.
At $JOB my customers are migrating from AIX, Solaris and even Windows
to Linux and from traditional Linux to microservices run under
OpenShift. As I told my manager at $JOB those many years ago, the
operating system will become a stub. We are now realizing this.
The other thing I see at $JOB is the network is now being virtualized
using NSX. Our Checkpoint firewalls are no longer physical but virtual.
FreeBSD with jails and VIMAGE is in a great position to play in this
space as well. An example might be, at $JOB we are using vRO and vRA
but it could be as easily done using Kubernetes and ansible to
centrally manage network of virtual and physical FreeBSD based
firewalls.
--
Cheers,
Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>
FreeBSD UNIX: <cy@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org
The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
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From: Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 19:41:49 +0000
Message-ID: <CADWvR2ij6rHw-KS6Qm9xMAmJzCCvcpgQ1LHQrGknhiaGep6V1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components
To: Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com>
Cc: Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
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On Sat, 5 Jan 2019 at 19:16, Enji Cooper wrote:
>
> > On Jan 3, 2019, at 12:24, Igor Mozolevsky wrote:
> ...
>
> > And by what metric is that "safety" measured, how does one measure
> > "safety" objectively? To me, that sounds like a techie version of
> > virtue-signalling... Even the Rust-clan seem to be rather confused
> > about it: https://doc.rust-lang.org/nomicon/meet-safe-and-unsafe.html
>
> It=E2=80=99s pretty clear to me what the author means: rust features safe=
and unsafe
> extensions, much like C++, Java, Perl, python, tcl, etc. Generally speaki=
ng,
> =E2=80=9Cunsafe=E2=80=9D language features are those that require additio=
nal care, like using
> malloc/free appropriately, avoiding global state, locking resources as ne=
eded,
> etc.
>
> > Btw, Java is "safe" too, and it's been around for *much* longer!
>
> Not necessarily true. Are you aware of how native java extensions work?
>
> Java as a language was written to be generic/platform agnostic, however i=
n
> order to be useful, Java requires platform extensions. As such, Java
> supports developers writing glue code in C/C++ (like python extensions),
> which can have a host of potential issues with memory leaks, concurrency
> safety, etc, in addition to potential issues with security sandboxing and=
the like.
>
> With the number of zero-day bugs in java that have been in the language
> in the past few years, I don=E2=80=99t trust the language=E2=80=99s sense=
of safety in terms
> of memory management and sandboxing in the JVM.
You're being deliberately obtuse, right? Because there's no "native
Rust extensions" (i. e. you can't make Rust call a buggy and unsafe
c-library)? And can you seriously guarantee that there will be no
zero-day bugs in Rust libraries, there's probably none *found* yet
simply because hardly anyone does anything serious in it! Your slating
of Java is just as applicable to Rust with the caveat that Rust has
been around and thus explored and abused far less. Why would you
trust automagic memory management in Rust when you don't trust
Java's? Rhetorical, of course, as there's no sensible answer.
--
Igor M.
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Quoting Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freebsd.dk> (from Fri, 04 Jan 2019=20=20
22:42:31=20+0000):
> --------
> In message <201901042219.x04MJf4w085379@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net>,=20=20
>=20"Rodney W. Grimes" writes:
>
>>> ... and RPi's, access-points, NAS devices, routers, televisions,=20=20
>>>=20photocopiers,
>>> sewage-treatment-plant-monitoring, high-voltage-switching,
>>> stock-trading, air-traffic-control, scientific super-computing,
>>> antiproliferation-monitoring, laptops, desktops and ...
>>
>> As far as I am concerned Linux can have the datacenter...
>> I find this list much more interesting :-)
>
> Me too.
>
> Data-centers are booooring!
Which means that x developers with commit bits in FreeBSD are free to=20=20
develop=20whatever they want.
This does not mean that all users of FreeBSD agree.
This does not mean that all developers with commit bits in FreeBSD agree.
Do you want to limit what y developers with commit bits in FreeBSD are=20=
=20
working=20on?
From what I hear here I get the impression that there are people=20=20
which=20want to limit that y developers want to explore the benefits of=20=
=20
feature=20A. Nobody told so war we have to import anything into base=20=20
yet.=20The initial request was to get an idea about opinions. Nobody=20=20
told=20we have to rewrite the kernel in rust, there were infos that=20=20
there=20may be benefit in having parts of it in rust, which can be=20=20
explored=20e.g. in ports. Nobody asked to replace a critical boot time=20=
=20
component.=20As we are not a company were the people are paid to work on=20=
=20
specific=20items (yes, there are people paid to work in parts, please=20=20
forgive=20me that I don't count them here... we don't talk about them=20=20
doing=20this work), we can not really tell that this takes away=20=20
development=20resources away from other work (those developers may not=20=
=20
work=20on something else, or they may work on something which is not=20=20
"strategic").
And=20if you really think that containers (in whatever color...=20=20
kubernetes,=20docker, "jails" or whatever) are only datacenter tools...=20=
=20
well...=20have again a look at NAS devices, laptops, and desktop systems=20=
=20
(and=20whatever).
I don't have a datacenter at home, but I use a lot of containers at=20=20
home.=20I use them in the "jail"-color (every service his own jail, I=20=20
even=20have a desktop-setup-in-a-jail...). I don't use them as is, I use=20=
=20
tools.=20ezjail, iocage, whatever color you want. Would openstack be=20=20
overkill=20here? Maybe. Maybe not. Would I give it a try if we would=20=20
have=20openstack in ports in my basement? Yes I would -- why should I=20=20
limit=20myself to linux to have a look at openstack/kubernetes/docker...=20=
=20
we=20have the infrastructure to make it possible (I let it up to you to=20=
=20
decide=20if we have a better infrastructure/base for this or not).
I expect in the long run virtualisation and containers arrive in a lot=20=
=20
of=20places, even in those you have listed above as not boring. There=20=20
are=20benefits in the upgrade path, there are benefits in handling=20=20
dependencies=20(compared to an one box does everything), there are=20=20
benefits=20in the security area (yes, we have capsicum which addresses=20=
=20
some=20aspects, but not all as if each part runs in it's own jail).
FreeBSD comes from the "power to serve" area. You can off course tell=20=20
that=20access-points, NAS devices (which also exist in datacenters...)=20=
=20
and=20routers are "serving", but datacenters are the traditional area of=20=
=20
"the=20power to serve". Basically if you tell that datacenters are=20=20
boring,=20you tell that we shall turn around and that e.g. the CDN of=20=20
Netflix=20is not the area we want to target (I would not agree that this=20=
=20
CDN=20is some sort of NAS, for me this is more like a=20=20
web-/ftp-/<protocol_of_the_day>-server,=20so something which resides=20=20
traditionally=20in a datacenter).
Bye,
Alexander.
--=20
http://www.Leidinger.net=20Alexander@Leidinger.net: PGP 0x8F31830F9F2772BF
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