From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Jan 6 08:33:40 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEB48143F68E for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 08:33:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B7E068570 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 08:33:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.55.3]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54DF814884; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 08:33:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x068XTej093112 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 6 Jan 2019 08:33:29 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: (from phk@localhost) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id x068XTRS093111; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 08:33:29 GMT (envelope-from phk) To: Alexander Leidinger , Alexander Leidinger via freebsd-hackers Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components) In-reply-to: <20190105120606.Horde.uAUbjCtZfZHG93S2hfmiOCc@webmail.leidinger.net> From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" References: <201901042219.x04MJf4w085379@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> <79545.1546641751@critter.freebsd.dk> <20190105120606.Horde.uAUbjCtZfZHG93S2hfmiOCc@webmail.leidinger.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <93109.1546763609.1@critter.freebsd.dk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 08:33:29 +0000 Message-ID: <93110.1546763609@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 2B7E068570 X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.54 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.84)[0.843,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freebsd.dk]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.49)[0.488,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[phk.freebsd.dk]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.82)[0.818,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[phk@phk.freebsd.dk,phk@critter.freebsd.dk]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:1835, ipnet:130.225.0.0/16, country:EU]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[phk@phk.freebsd.dk,phk@critter.freebsd.dk]; IP_SCORE(0.10)[asn: 1835(0.50), country: EU(-0.00)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 08:33:40 -0000 -------- In message <20190105120606.Horde.uAUbjCtZfZHG93S2hfmiOCc@webmail.leidinger= .net>, Alexander Leidinger via freebsd-hackers writes: >> Data-centers are booooring! > >Which means that x developers with commit bits in FreeBSD are free to = >develop whatever they want. No, *all* developers with or without commit bits in FreeBSD are free to develop whatever they want. Some of them care about datacenters, and thats *fine*, some of them care about embedded, and thats *fine* and some of them care about laptops, and thats *fine* and so on. The FreeBSD releases contain exactly, and no more or no less, than what people put into them, for whatever reason they put it in. Now, can we drop this inane thread, and check the "At least one Bikeshed" box on the 2019 TODO list, and get back to coding ? -- = Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe = Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence= . From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Jan 6 11:44:03 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E3581489EF0 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 11:44:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from contact@sidju.se) Received: from mail-40132.protonmail.ch (mail-40132.protonmail.ch [185.70.40.132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.protonmail.ch", Issuer "QuoVadis Global SSL ICA G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E7CAA71128 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 11:44:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from contact@sidju.se) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 11:43:51 +0000 To: igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk, yaneurabeya@gmail.com From: "David \"Sid\" Olofsson" Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: "David \"Sid\" Olofsson" Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <201901021829.x02IT4Kc064169@slippy.cwsent.com> <361CCB81-AEB6-4EAC-9604-CD8F4C63948C@gmail.com> <6DF138FB-E730-477A-A992-8FE1944DDE94@exonetric.com> <451787DE-0659-4F7D-B011-904F90866DDB@gmail.com> Feedback-ID: yWziOT21xGmlou7iIbFfzQnZChMdlYRMdNkbeAaoQyx2tVusmig79wzBVeOF2FDH6yLezQz8bCF622c-cZjJKA==:Ext:ProtonMail MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.2 required=7.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,DKIM_VALID_EF,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on mail.protonmail.ch X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: E7CAA71128 X-Spamd-Bar: ----- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.76 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[contact@sidju.se]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:185.70.40.0/24]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[sidju.se:+]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[mailsec.protonmail.ch,mail.protonmail.ch]; MIME_BASE64_TEXT(0.10)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.982,0]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[sidju.se,quarantine]; 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owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Jan 6 11:46:36 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8905D148A40C for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 11:46:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@sidju.se) Received: from mail-40132.protonmail.ch (mail-40132.protonmail.ch [185.70.40.132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.protonmail.ch", Issuer "QuoVadis Global SSL ICA G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B0E8A713E5 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 11:46:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@sidju.se) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 11:46:25 +0000 To: igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk, yaneurabeya@gmail.com From: Sidju Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: Sidju Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <201901021829.x02IT4Kc064169@slippy.cwsent.com> 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[IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91A21148EAC0 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 13:09:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ot1-f47.google.com (mail-ot1-f47.google.com [209.85.210.47]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2EAB2764DB for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 13:09:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: by mail-ot1-f47.google.com with SMTP id 32so35665923ota.12 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2019 05:09:10 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=KQrMcaQZ3XdZiCA91PLQCdsGaQfQodCNCbuQd+DR0Fk=; b=E77b8CCtzPvSAyQuytgctWohRnLoxRdV2ZmpSwDhBeKBP4D+9gMoKrs4MjrPV5gzRz 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components To: David Sid Olofsson Cc: Hackers freeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 2EAB2764DB X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mozolevsky@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.47 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mozolevsky@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.20 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[hybrid-lab.co.uk]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[47.210.85.209.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.97)[-0.966,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk,mozolevsky@gmail.com]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk,mozolevsky@gmail.com]; IP_SCORE(-1.22)[ip: (-0.59), ipnet: 209.85.128.0/17(-3.78), asn: 15169(-1.67), country: US(-0.08)]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 13:09:11 -0000 On Sun, 6 Jan 2019 at 11:43, David "Sid" Olofsson wrote: > > Rust features several limitations on pointer usage by default that increase > memory safety by forcing you to write a safe solution. (They are pretty > interesting, I recommend looking into it.) Rhetorical: remind me what Java's pointer usage policy is again? > It is indeed dependent on some "unsafe" libraries to function and there may > be exploits in those (Literally applicable to all languages. What is machine > code if not a library?), but from what I've gathered you could write those in > rust as well using the @unsafe flag. (This probably yields better safety than > the c++ glue slapped together by a java programmer to "get the JVM to run, > goddammit!". But that isn't really the point.) Probably? If you don't know one way or another, why even speculate??? > By moving the bulk of your application out of "unsafe" c or c++ and into > heavily type checked, ownership oriented and abstracted rust you would > reduce the potential bugs without the performance reduction and large > runtime required by java. Don't know where you've been for the earlier discussion, but someone did an experiment, and guess what: Rust yielded a massive increase in instruction count for a a simple sum-of-integers program, so it's not just "runtime library" issue. As for "potential bugs," see below. > Rust isn't a silver bullet that will fix all bugs. It is a slightly more > abstracted and type checking language that is slightly better for a lot > of things. If you don't find that slight improvement worth the difficulty > it is to learn it, then don't. An inept craftsman always blames the tools: wrong screwdriver, wrong hammer, wrong language. Learn the discipline of programming, learn to identify tainted inputs, learn to identify your own assumptions, learn to verify your own assumptions before relying on them, learn the architecture you're writing the code for, and learn the language that you're using. Most buffer overflows in C, if not all, are simply are a result of ineptitude, for example---not because C has bad libraries, but because the person using them (a) didn't understand the ramification of using a specific library call, (b) failed to identify all assumptions they relied on, and, consequently, (c) failed to verify the assumptions before relying on them. Ditto for format string exploits. The gist is: learn a better discipline of programming to make better code, not yet-another-many-promises-but-few-deliveries language. -- Igor M. From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Jan 6 13:43:40 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1AD1148F8B0 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 13:43:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: from puchar.net (puchar.net [194.1.144.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "puchar.net", Issuer "puchar.net" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4CB9C77839 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 13:43:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: Received: from 127.0.0.1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x06Dhgr9001732 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 6 Jan 2019 14:43:42 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) Received: from localhost (puchar-wojtek@localhost) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id x06DhbsO001729; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 14:43:37 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 14:43:37 +0100 (CET) From: Wojciech Puchar To: Igor Mozolevsky cc: David Sid Olofsson , Hackers freeBSD Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <201901021829.x02IT4Kc064169@slippy.cwsent.com> <361CCB81-AEB6-4EAC-9604-CD8F4C63948C@gmail.com> <6DF138FB-E730-477A-A992-8FE1944DDE94@exonetric.com> <451787DE-0659-4F7D-B011-904F90866DDB@gmail.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (BSF 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4CB9C77839 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wojtek@puchar.net designates 194.1.144.90 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=wojtek@puchar.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.76 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[puchar.net]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[puchar.net]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.89)[-0.892,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[90.144.1.194.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; IP_SCORE(-3.56)[ip: (-9.38), ipnet: 194.1.144.0/24(-4.69), asn: 43476(-3.75), country: PL(0.03)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:43476, ipnet:194.1.144.0/24, country:PL]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 13:43:40 -0000 > An inept craftsman always blames the tools: wrong screwdriver, wrong > hammer, wrong language. Learn the discipline of programming, learn to That's all about it. C is great language because you exactly decide how. things are done. It's something like architecture independent assember. For good programmers it is a good language. Poor programmers constantly invents solution to problems they create. From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Jan 6 13:57:50 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46B40148FD5A for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 13:57:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from mail-oi1-f174.google.com (mail-oi1-f174.google.com [209.85.167.174]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E07C77E1C for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 13:57:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: by mail-oi1-f174.google.com with SMTP id w13so33892401oiw.9 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2019 05:57:49 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=kZrmNGdkSjB5uB8A5HTUartSTLpvICJMbQ5nU3Z79uk=; b=spOim9BqhElOUD7fCHtwMaiNMWYIFZp266CfycNLmMZf51hSyfxGPHy/2eBLExD7sv DMdvmU1wadWwh2ev96253/rSgzKjSs2AuQX6DyJpTMxFd7hWNkZGJPE82iatUK9rZlDw XBRtpipKkDfy3Z2rl7zOXb8qi+rW+HoihbWE4Sf1M08HlYR367yHNRhR69IcnSdJCfGU KniPVkMqLcbdX8iNPCbJgOspEcaLJdULFrEnhvuurPHJNzv55gvMugWTEKHuVNNLKLsp x3kNAWEmAUTgPScNBaJxOHDHfmytGfpfPu+Kw77/xBvFsdQ7fpkN8j3PwpUhXex9USS3 GY6g== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukcAqJziL56a3X6+yKH/i8AIuxWh0j23YqoJ6V2cXXKZMkEPtHk6 x4PTvmU1QSwY3zgsNLcFx5bnsC7j2N08PV5WbF2gMQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN66TKnZmcV0ruZPs4GYn/1MV/R8xvlAwsjmw71xRrvejHgdEy4saQmCAbuzvaF9xuq9WwoNGLtJ8A8uMEVY3tI= X-Received: by 2002:aca:3c06:: with SMTP id j6mr5600767oia.126.1546783068068; Sun, 06 Jan 2019 05:57:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <201901021829.x02IT4Kc064169@slippy.cwsent.com> <361CCB81-AEB6-4EAC-9604-CD8F4C63948C@gmail.com> <6DF138FB-E730-477A-A992-8FE1944DDE94@exonetric.com> <451787DE-0659-4F7D-B011-904F90866DDB@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Igor Mozolevsky Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 13:57:11 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components To: Pratyush Yadav Cc: Hackers freeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 3E07C77E1C X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mozolevsky@gmail.com designates 209.85.167.174 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mozolevsky@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.84 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.997,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[hybrid-lab.co.uk]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[174.167.85.209.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.73)[-0.728,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk,mozolevsky@gmail.com]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk,mozolevsky@gmail.com]; IP_SCORE(-1.11)[ipnet: 209.85.128.0/17(-3.78), asn: 15169(-1.67), country: US(-0.08)]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 13:57:50 -0000 On Sun, 6 Jan 2019 at 13:50, Pratyush Yadav wrote: > When I allocate a C object, I think about its lifecycle first, > when/how it is allocated, when/how freed. Works pretty well for me and > helps avoid memory leaks in most cases. But, one time out of a > hundred, I might forget a free(). Bugs like these often don't stem > from ineptitude IMHO, but from honest mistakes. Languages that make > your job easier by taking care of these common pitfalls are not so > bad. That's because you simply engage your hands before engaging your brain, and that's exactly what I meant by _d_i_s_c_i_p_l_i_n_e_! Write documentation *first* then write the accompanying code, not the other way around. or skip the documentation step altogether---how is the reader of your code supposed to know that what you've written in code is what you _i_n_t_e_n_d_e_d_ in the first place? What you've just demonstrated there is astoninigly *poor* discipline! > Another thing is, if the language takes care of memory allocation, > synchronization, etc, I don't have to spend time and effort thinking > about them, making sure everything is correct. I can spend that effort > somewhere more useful, increasing my productivity. What you're wanting is something to compensate for your lack of discipline... Well there's an answer for that for C: lint/static analysis. -- Igor M. From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Jan 6 14:09:18 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F2CB14903AB for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 14:09:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@sidju.se) Received: from mail2.protonmail.ch (mail2.protonmail.ch [185.70.40.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.protonmail.ch", Issuer "QuoVadis Global SSL ICA G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CCA25803F5 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 14:09:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@sidju.se) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 14:09:04 +0000 To: igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk From: Sidju Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: Sidju Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <201901021829.x02IT4Kc064169@slippy.cwsent.com> <361CCB81-AEB6-4EAC-9604-CD8F4C63948C@gmail.com> <6DF138FB-E730-477A-A992-8FE1944DDE94@exonetric.com> <451787DE-0659-4F7D-B011-904F90866DDB@gmail.com> Feedback-ID: yWziOT21xGmlou7iIbFfzQnZChMdlYRMdNkbeAaoQyx2tVusmig79wzBVeOF2FDH6yLezQz8bCF622c-cZjJKA==:Ext:ProtonMail MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.2 required=7.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,DKIM_VALID_EF,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on mail.protonmail.ch X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: CCA25803F5 X-Spamd-Bar: ------- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-7.70 / 15.00]; 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Sun, 06 Jan 2019 06:18:20 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <201901021829.x02IT4Kc064169@slippy.cwsent.com> <361CCB81-AEB6-4EAC-9604-CD8F4C63948C@gmail.com> <6DF138FB-E730-477A-A992-8FE1944DDE94@exonetric.com> <451787DE-0659-4F7D-B011-904F90866DDB@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Igor Mozolevsky Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 14:17:44 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components To: Sidju Cc: Hackers freeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: D01D7808AD X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mozolevsky@gmail.com designates 209.85.167.174 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mozolevsky@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.96 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[hybrid-lab.co.uk]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt4.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt2.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com,alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[174.167.85.209.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.85)[-0.847,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk,mozolevsky@gmail.com]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk,mozolevsky@gmail.com]; IP_SCORE(-1.11)[ipnet: 209.85.128.0/17(-3.78), asn: 15169(-1.67), country: US(-0.08)]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 14:18:22 -0000 On Sun, 6 Jan 2019 at 14:09, Sidju wrote: > >Don't know where you've been for the earlier discussion, but someone > >did an experiment, and guess what: Rust yielded a massive increase in > >instruction count for a a simple sum-of-integers program, so it's not > >just "runtime library" issue. As for "potential bugs," see below. > > Wasn't that the experiment that sparked the "statically linked by default" > sidetrack? > From all that I have been able to find ( https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/faster/rust-gpp.html ) > rust performs far better than java and go (which is what I contrasted > to) and is not very far behind c and c++ (which I doubt anything will > beat for the next 10 years). > > Admittedly the codesize is increased even with dynamic linking and > there is some cost for those ownership checks when they occur, > but it is not horrendous. Java was given by me as a parody example, don't know why you've taken comparison against Java so seriously... The second experiment was purely on executable instruction count, if I recall correctly, not the binary size; and I'd rather my processor did little work and slept than did a lot of work to achieve the same result and ate electricity. > >> Rust isn't a silver bullet that will fix all bugs. It is a slightly more > >> abstracted and type checking language that is slightly better for a lot > >> of things. If you don't find that slight improvement worth the difficulty > >> it is to learn it, then don't. > > >The gist is: learn a better discipline of programming to make better > >code, not yet-another-many-promises-but-few-deliveries language. > > By that reasoning we should never have left the glorious days of > assembly programming. I'm very much in favour of that---you wouldn't believe how often I think "this is so trivial to do in asm" while fighting "safeguards" and other "curiosities" of C! -- Igor M. From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Jan 6 16:01:28 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 444121492BD8 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 16:01:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asomers@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lj1-f173.google.com (mail-lj1-f173.google.com [209.85.208.173]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3126283ADD for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 16:01:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asomers@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lj1-f173.google.com with SMTP id x85-v6so36124872ljb.2 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2019 08:01:27 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=WLzsZHemNkqqijOmtXUDGB0xG1GgI7V2auLvpdp0f/g=; b=uNsyXUs8/UnV945dlGi//alr3cFac/GJzS/bDM6qdup310LBDORbJe8dr9uRegLSq9 fxHJ27puLtT4u+UM6YBXtFwrtkraWQDd8t1K2fhK8AIt10/EcaNcdfMRYZEPLCEnkLVV AidRhgt0lNPXOL04RLjswXebC0UYooBrpBW5s0P9eGoziVvHxwdeGumgHV2xGCszhbK4 xC2jF2CVOs2kO31p96Iq6ebgX+yLjxouE+BPux1DS74P1ALxMZA2jy1qwWnVs08uj492 MTnVBluM1Sy1neD8gCKtBy2Z2Mg3X33SpGpuYa7HpOYIQv/GNNh8ReNyl/R47W/1bqz4 WX6Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukf25bzShBO5xDlEyke3WNBj5Jc2jrN4J6eG1+nQXXID2u+e1Jv2 KdswwZfzXeUYRyQuyopKaDj/6AEj5yJhA9ajhc07FOTr X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN4wKfpzxDypZPb0cjbov7BadR+k0BVNfDGrUqI6aYY/auvfj2QQdeIeu6eS9N9RX/sIhg9y0WKJGbJyjPhkgxU= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:94ce:: with SMTP id r14-v6mr32294664ljh.34.1546790479585; Sun, 06 Jan 2019 08:01:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7d7bc47d-04cf-2f9b-00a3-e3d9d92b3623@aceshardware.com> <72922F2C-9D27-47AA-BB1C-2DA8589CF008@rpi.edu> <92bd5362-d898-aa12-8f3d-9fbe23f38e0c@aceshardware.com> In-Reply-To: <92bd5362-d898-aa12-8f3d-9fbe23f38e0c@aceshardware.com> From: Alan Somers Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 09:01:07 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components To: Brian Neal Cc: Garance A Drosehn , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 3126283ADD X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of asomers@gmail.com designates 209.85.208.173 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=asomers@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.01 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freebsd.org]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.89)[-0.894,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[173.208.85.209.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[asomers@freebsd.org,asomers@gmail.com]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[asomers@freebsd.org,asomers@gmail.com]; IP_SCORE(-1.11)[ipnet: 209.85.128.0/17(-3.78), asn: 15169(-1.67), country: US(-0.08)]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 16:01:28 -0000 On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 12:00 AM Brian Neal wrote: > > It was a debug build with no optimization for either compiler. But we > can easily run a variety of settings for comparison: > > Compiler Flags Inst. Count Build Time > ====================================================================== > clang 7.0.0 none 33 296ms > -O3 23 341ms > rustc 1.31.0 none 110 606ms > -C opt-level=3 67 643ms > gcc 8.2 none 37 211ms > -O2 24 249ms > -O3 119* 206ms > > * With -O3, gcc unrolled and vectorized the loop. The other compilers > did not emit vectorized code at any of the standard optimization levels. > > So, essentially, double the build time and ~3 times the code for the > same logic. I get different results on Godbolt. I don't know exactly what your program was, but I tried to recreate it from your description. I wrote it in two ways. With opt-level=s, I got 13 instructions for one version, and 16 for the other. With opt-level=3, I got vectorized code for both. Here's my code: pub fn oddcount(num: i32) -> i32 { (0..num).map(|i| { if i % 2 > 0 { i } else { 0 } }).sum() } pub fn oddcount2(num: i32) -> i32 { let mut sum = 0; for i in 0..num { if i % 2 > 0 { sum += i; } } sum } -Alan From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Jan 6 16:54:23 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B6A51494228 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 16:54:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brian@aceshardware.com) Received: from mail.aceshardware.com (mail.aceshardware.com [52.52.37.31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1180685AA9; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 16:54:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brian@aceshardware.com) Received: from [10.0.0.102] (unknown [71.145.208.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.aceshardware.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D1B6920130F; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 16:54:10 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aceshardware.com; s=dkim; t=1546793652; h=from:from:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=1q+mYsNbuhKhSVVhmDoG/69UFOui0O77ymbzJwimntc=; b=HwC15STyN3t0xg+DZfUgvTe2+2UNQl899HNUtmkVlBxnuYOxFCHy40JCEPd5g41xfq/mzT sPeQF6chf/TutgWH0SuSJb6MWwlPL/iGvfzlEjmvoxPlrVGdS433y9e97oCiSWGotRi3Gp +SnYzaJFVgnDAkihSpe/DrEtxwaP7NVxOlf5N/366jzmTd2fcUjJqDhK7BKelMdjyHOTtj Igeck//ulBRThS1jRlnIkN+hXnZiQHArxGLPviml9madNTDMdiHDjOydz0J9OvRacPyd8a EcSyTUr47UDs8ipneg+O7U0sqp2BkfVnHk0a/WUbao13UzUdWTBKGEnLQ7bqnQ== Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components To: Alan Somers Cc: "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , Garance A Drosehn References: <7d7bc47d-04cf-2f9b-00a3-e3d9d92b3623@aceshardware.com> <72922F2C-9D27-47AA-BB1C-2DA8589CF008@rpi.edu> <92bd5362-d898-aa12-8f3d-9fbe23f38e0c@aceshardware.com> From: Brian Neal Message-ID: <26325c0b-4960-7739-72aa-c31c4e0638d3@aceshardware.com> Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 08:54:08 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:65.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/65.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 1180685AA9 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=aceshardware.com header.s=dkim header.b=HwC15STy; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=aceshardware.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.86 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[aceshardware.com:s=dkim]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[aceshardware.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[aceshardware.com,none]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[mail.aceshardware.com]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.57)[-0.572,0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-0.48)[ipnet: 52.52.0.0/15(-1.08), asn: 16509(-1.25), country: US(-0.08)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16509, ipnet:52.52.0.0/15, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 16:54:23 -0000 I don't have it anymore, but yours is close enough. When compiling your first example, I get 156 instructions, including map iterators and rust result assert/unwrap logic. Your second example produces 21 lines, including a loop iterator: rustc 1.31.0 with -C opt-level=s: ::into_iter: mov eax, edi mov edx, esi ret example::oddcount2: xor eax, eax test edi, edi jle .LBB1_3 xor ecx, ecx .LBB1_2: mov edx, ecx and edx, 1 neg edx and edx, ecx lea esi, [rcx + 1] add eax, edx mov ecx, esi cmp edi, esi jne .LBB1_2 .LBB1_3: ret Converting to C: int oddcount2(int num) { int sum = 0; for (int i = 0; i <= num; ++i) { if (i % 2 > 0) { sum += i; } } return sum; } I get the following with gcc 8.2 using -Os: oddcount2(int): xor edx, edx xor eax, eax .L4: cmp edx, edi jg .L1 test dl, 1 je .L3 add eax, edx .L3: inc edx jmp .L4 .L1: ret Cheers, -Brian On 1/6/2019 8:01 AM, Alan Somers wrote: > I get different results on Godbolt. I don't know exactly what your > program was, but I tried to recreate it from your description. I > wrote it in two ways. With opt-level=s, I got 13 instructions for one > version, and 16 for the other. With opt-level=3, I got vectorized > code for both. Here's my code: > > pub fn oddcount(num: i32) -> i32 { > (0..num).map(|i| { > if i % 2 > 0 { > i > } else { > 0 > } > }).sum() > } > > pub fn oddcount2(num: i32) -> i32 { > let mut sum = 0; > for i in 0..num { > if i % 2 > 0 { > sum += i; > } > } > sum > } > > -Alan > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Jan 6 17:17:24 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 600A11494A03 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 17:17:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asomers@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lf1-f43.google.com (mail-lf1-f43.google.com [209.85.167.43]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7647B865F2 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 17:17:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asomers@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lf1-f43.google.com with SMTP id a16so28560679lfg.3 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2019 09:17:23 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=HPKvIzOT3L1PvQC4C8zBpAjpThfsiTtn11vdkvAO8Q8=; b=KURgT/yR2kM5WLCUlGYoVRwEITMkoZfrGxrB6XtY8c3VaTh/8W6jqLKRMM48d6p6m/ qSlNftG9kA6ZxJeAu7WGLlq8gWMWaK8xuP8dMPsRJ394NaFX0aSbltJQ4Tdsbc58Gduf BYaVOzdg0KJUAQsifbdbQiTDjcPsuwW3nk9kaP1wQfgcaEUiIdym1Y9Ra+f0y5I2PTE7 fiiqHb7qB0RH92AS/lRtWM9q38tm35LVwX7Fvose0NRMlFkZTbFZCzt6nMqLP3+KvHkq qjJDxG6e58wxC41kR/IhKMz0OaZGFdtf7Gmqvx3/0xbzfSnO+8L0S0uYseUNA1ajmACi wLnA== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWbX71/T2ikRE28wGY+J08l/eEZh8JlB/P2Z8voMFTuasTxsAqsR EI15sMNPC3vp/GZnpt7qybUXLULvNRPcocGUHic= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/VvvAT7/c0ls2vQhHwnlvE/b3ANKVqxswG0AXWL2Z7dbFZrdf9Z6j543a55y5yjYk4+zefX0YaD0c5/4JCtG6M= X-Received: by 2002:a19:200b:: with SMTP id g11mr28268864lfg.58.1546795036380; Sun, 06 Jan 2019 09:17:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7d7bc47d-04cf-2f9b-00a3-e3d9d92b3623@aceshardware.com> <72922F2C-9D27-47AA-BB1C-2DA8589CF008@rpi.edu> <92bd5362-d898-aa12-8f3d-9fbe23f38e0c@aceshardware.com> <26325c0b-4960-7739-72aa-c31c4e0638d3@aceshardware.com> In-Reply-To: <26325c0b-4960-7739-72aa-c31c4e0638d3@aceshardware.com> From: Alan Somers Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 10:17:04 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components To: Brian Neal Cc: "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , Garance A Drosehn Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 7647B865F2 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of asomers@gmail.com designates 209.85.167.43 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=asomers@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.92 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freebsd.org]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.80)[-0.803,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[43.167.85.209.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[asomers@freebsd.org,asomers@gmail.com]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[asomers@freebsd.org,asomers@gmail.com]; IP_SCORE(-1.11)[ipnet: 209.85.128.0/17(-3.78), asn: 15169(-1.67), country: US(-0.08)]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 17:17:24 -0000 On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 9:54 AM Brian Neal wrote: > > I don't have it anymore, but yours is close enough. When compiling your > first example, I get 156 instructions, including map iterators and rust > result assert/unwrap logic. Your second example produces 21 lines, > including a loop iterator: > > rustc 1.31.0 with -C opt-level=s: > > ::into_iter: > mov eax, edi > mov edx, esi > ret > example::oddcount2: > xor eax, eax > test edi, edi > jle .LBB1_3 > xor ecx, ecx > .LBB1_2: > mov edx, ecx > and edx, 1 > neg edx > and edx, ecx > lea esi, [rcx + 1] > add eax, edx > mov ecx, esi > cmp edi, esi > jne .LBB1_2 > .LBB1_3: > ret Those 21 lines aren't 21 instructions; you're counting labels. Also, the first three instructions aren't actually part of the function. They're dead code, and should be eliminate by LTO. However, Rust doesn't do LTO when compiling libraries; only when linking executables. The unwrap logic, etc is also not part of the function. So in this example, Rust produces only a few more instructions than C. Also, FYI the Rust expression "0..num" is exclusive on the right. It's equivalent to C's "for (int i = 0; i < num; i++)", though that doesn't change the instruction count. -Alan > > Converting to C: > > int oddcount2(int num) { > int sum = 0; > for (int i = 0; i <= num; ++i) > { > if (i % 2 > 0) > { > sum += i; > } > } > return sum; > } > > I get the following with gcc 8.2 using -Os: > > oddcount2(int): > xor edx, edx > xor eax, eax > .L4: > cmp edx, edi > jg .L1 > test dl, 1 > je .L3 > add eax, edx > .L3: > inc edx > jmp .L4 > .L1: > ret > > Cheers, > > -Brian > > On 1/6/2019 8:01 AM, Alan Somers wrote: > > I get different results on Godbolt. I don't know exactly what your > > program was, but I tried to recreate it from your description. I > > wrote it in two ways. With opt-level=s, I got 13 instructions for one > > version, and 16 for the other. With opt-level=3, I got vectorized > > code for both. Here's my code: > > > > pub fn oddcount(num: i32) -> i32 { > > (0..num).map(|i| { > > if i % 2 > 0 { > > i > > } else { > > 0 > > } > > }).sum() > > } > > > > pub fn oddcount2(num: i32) -> i32 { > > let mut sum = 0; > > for i in 0..num { > > if i % 2 > 0 { > > sum += i; > > } > > } > > sum > > } > > > > -Alan > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Jan 6 17:49:27 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F3B014957C3 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 17:49:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ot1-f53.google.com (mail-ot1-f53.google.com [209.85.210.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A768687843; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 17:49:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: by mail-ot1-f53.google.com with SMTP id f18so35980751otl.11; Sun, 06 Jan 2019 09:49:26 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=uB72MC15MbzUfv5XXxWq20KkL1DYgTVgn8wVg/4fQS8=; b=eBLzHaG1425NJNz4fQixoOuKfY8MpJc1V1YnlISV07RU3SbR5cb9c9Tq9DphiS526q SJRNxfW0tJAeqbKrXswr22np0nVQvwKw8nTbvzHcTlyH9Hz6+MxlDohl411hTIZLlLAI zPfA/Zb67TXIhSQO4YvOqsd2gE+9BsXyHJMyW3xabVIrpWtVIF5qir2c8LoACo0oouAD Xtj+EotANaRyIVSlx7chvka38bHcwBaclnPdQEihqZZXV43/R7/ePLR017NjXl1+0ZQs DIitSjggVQLm20BbsQiN0guUUbpEnXUaIWTPBg8YFt1CalGuTSVcF18mz5NvWmotJ+7T fF1Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukfJD2EKBkmIrACGHbf070bglE3WMai0+oGA43yXYhWKhsPupqaR A621KR5m38SGfezY2JtOnpSOJpibmHv4IpGgaAfDS95a X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN6k0le4yrJHPdrAQzuiij5oqtLBjl+l7GGyK0CIfYiqwlq0nd9zWwVeN0jUzdbpt6Nmxa594VGCiFKlD06dXYk= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:620f:: with SMTP id g15mr38307923otj.296.1546796959956; Sun, 06 Jan 2019 09:49:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7d7bc47d-04cf-2f9b-00a3-e3d9d92b3623@aceshardware.com> <72922F2C-9D27-47AA-BB1C-2DA8589CF008@rpi.edu> <92bd5362-d898-aa12-8f3d-9fbe23f38e0c@aceshardware.com> <26325c0b-4960-7739-72aa-c31c4e0638d3@aceshardware.com> In-Reply-To: <26325c0b-4960-7739-72aa-c31c4e0638d3@aceshardware.com> From: Igor Mozolevsky Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 17:48:44 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components To: Brian Neal Cc: Alan Somers , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: A768687843 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mozolevsky@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.53 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mozolevsky@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.12 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.996,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.996,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[hybrid-lab.co.uk]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.91)[-0.907,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[53.210.85.209.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(-1.21)[ip: (-0.52), ipnet: 209.85.128.0/17(-3.78), asn: 15169(-1.67), country: US(-0.08)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk,mozolevsky@gmail.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk,mozolevsky@gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 17:49:27 -0000 On Sun, 6 Jan 2019 at 16:58, Brian Neal wrote: > I don't have it anymore, but yours is close enough. When compiling your > first example, I get 156 instructions, including map iterators and rust > result assert/unwrap logic. Your second example produces 21 lines, > including a loop iterator: All of *nine* instructions in C including (a) constant running time, i. e. O(1) cf. O(c), and (b) integer wrapping check-signal:- #include int32_t oddcount(int32_t c) { const int32_t max_c = 92679; /* sqrt(INT32_MAX)*2-1 */ return((c > max_c) ? 0: ((c + 1) / 2) * ((c + 1) / 2)); } oddcount: xor eax, eax cmp edi, 92679 jg .L1 lea eax, [rdi+1] mov ecx, 2 cdq idiv ecx imul eax, eax .L1: ret Like I said, no matter what tool one uses, bugs are easy to introduce (yes, even in Rust!), wrapping ints in the instant case... -- Igor M. From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Jan 6 17:50:39 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D858E1495810 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 17:50:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brian@aceshardware.com) Received: from mail.aceshardware.com (mail.aceshardware.com [52.52.37.31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0BA338795C for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 17:50:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brian@aceshardware.com) Received: from [10.0.0.102] (unknown [71.145.208.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.aceshardware.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1FAFC201313 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 17:50:36 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aceshardware.com; s=dkim; t=1546797036; h=from:from:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=ZJ3B9hv+LWs9hXY5LKbX8JtBHhQ6vXQzBm0Ug4YQa1g=; b=Wmt+7w1Ka5PxspbBEqnkeNH1YvX2fQgb+OAR4LngagWRE0IQJdUyoCQjrWPrT/JvGkhGFt blJPOrdWAVsufsCQ59x35JCBQJKI9mYV2aHNgfQvOHkGI7qJ2w7vfog8L1yMZYzxOE+wFt 9sH2GX+Yq1N2WMbsLB1MR0o1ghC4+347/JCvDtVkqBREIr/qbLeiQnh+8v9JdZmVpu43SN f5lWkAqYK9/DRs8Zp7en6978Am3yasZPMfLF0QsOKwKaEDGhUyeWnbv+RjwM/KTCpz+I0U 2XBXk9Qf/dx5U6+UW896VxGKZqzoPJrS2ymzR38Jk5iTt4ONsKjaCkDdmVcjAw== Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <7d7bc47d-04cf-2f9b-00a3-e3d9d92b3623@aceshardware.com> <72922F2C-9D27-47AA-BB1C-2DA8589CF008@rpi.edu> <92bd5362-d898-aa12-8f3d-9fbe23f38e0c@aceshardware.com> <26325c0b-4960-7739-72aa-c31c4e0638d3@aceshardware.com> From: Brian Neal Message-ID: Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 09:50:32 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:65.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/65.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 0BA338795C X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=aceshardware.com header.s=dkim header.b=Wmt+7w1K; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=aceshardware.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.15 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[aceshardware.com:s=dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: mail.aceshardware.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[aceshardware.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[aceshardware.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.78)[-0.782,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-0.56)[ipnet: 52.52.0.0/15(-1.48), asn: 16509(-1.25), country: US(-0.08)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16509, ipnet:52.52.0.0/15, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 17:50:39 -0000 Of course. But I'm counting like for like. So labels are counted for all languages. And I definitely don't rely on LTO when comparing the efficacy of compiler, especially since the linker can spend lots of time eliminating dead-code (usually single-threaded), which means longer build times. On 1/6/2019 9:17 AM, Alan Somers wrote: > Those 21 lines aren't 21 instructions; you're counting labels. Also, > the first three instructions aren't actually part of the function. > They're dead code, and should be eliminate by LTO. However, Rust > doesn't do LTO when compiling libraries; only when linking > executables. The unwrap logic, etc is also not part of the function. > So in this example, Rust produces only a few more instructions than C. > Also, FYI the Rust expression "0..num" is exclusive on the right. > It's equivalent to C's "for (int i = 0; i < num; i++)", though that > doesn't change the instruction count. > > -Alan From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Jan 6 18:01:51 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D9AC1495C43 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 18:01:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from mail-oi1-f178.google.com (mail-oi1-f178.google.com [209.85.167.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB60688262; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 18:01:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: by mail-oi1-f178.google.com with SMTP id u18so34131275oie.10; Sun, 06 Jan 2019 10:01:50 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=eN6d8DRI93L3BYsRbRgT0BZMmm8sWYWYK1RPWqzpK88=; b=o7Pg//iSu8sQDceAJb1hdh7fZralnBPlklo34wefU/kBiccPgxYaiGqp+Q2muW+NUe +Q7bgipeTnLZxQhurdpD7ZZyzdxz9XMnKLPosBKavj5BIQs+5tHsb3dSIq5yDj42gcZ4 kMe9EOvEtMoi/jQPVD1II/nZtyAztoR2aQ7F9QUbDs/F2BNGQLCU4X1Y0UHX27qgbW/F KdlUfgH3LakVj+OFTkpRNRHEBqmEwmdaTyS25LS/IuSVyMoYFo/jPtXQi9FEMHHo2sf1 IMX8SZRwXfc9Bnrj8w6HjhuyAefqYstlJxNsemFSWlTSuUgka9nr+BAvSM4SLTNhGM1O USow== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukclgba6eM2hRjFWcnVcKtrfRkI+Rt93B2tkXrPMGKKGaR97YyoL q7oXY8q9KIVsiaaFrf7hkkNolPthE1PqTQtE86JmLA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/VtOEJUI7sJjWQvmivr9L5twkNhX+RTzx2UKdJ7vJpB2plcl0ofMKz/U9y6g9vqVLP9iMUIspmkeznVRxyKYsk= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:282:: with SMTP id z2mr41509400oic.128.1546797704332; Sun, 06 Jan 2019 10:01:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7d7bc47d-04cf-2f9b-00a3-e3d9d92b3623@aceshardware.com> <72922F2C-9D27-47AA-BB1C-2DA8589CF008@rpi.edu> <92bd5362-d898-aa12-8f3d-9fbe23f38e0c@aceshardware.com> <26325c0b-4960-7739-72aa-c31c4e0638d3@aceshardware.com> In-Reply-To: From: Igor Mozolevsky Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 18:01:09 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components To: Alan Somers Cc: Brian Neal , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: BB60688262 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mozolevsky@gmail.com designates 209.85.167.178 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mozolevsky@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.98 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.994,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.992,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[hybrid-lab.co.uk]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.87)[-0.874,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[178.167.85.209.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(-1.10)[ipnet: 209.85.128.0/17(-3.77), asn: 15169(-1.67), country: US(-0.08)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk,mozolevsky@gmail.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk,mozolevsky@gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 18:01:51 -0000 On Sun, 6 Jan 2019 at 17:54, Alan Somers wrote: > Igor, please stop commenting unless you have something constructive to add. Really, demonstrating the fact that it's exceptionally easy to write buggy code even in Rust is not adding something to the discussion where "safety" is one of the paramount reasons why Rust is discussed??? Quite frankly, I think exposing the ability to write buggy and poor code adds far more to the discussion than your jejune commentary on my comments! If Rust was *that* good, the compiler should be refusing to compile code that will conceal serious issues. Do you have something against my name or something? -- Igor M. From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Jan 6 18:02:00 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 418A61495C56 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 18:02:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asomers@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lf1-f43.google.com (mail-lf1-f43.google.com [209.85.167.43]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5524F88286 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 18:01:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asomers@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lf1-f43.google.com with SMTP id b20so28571901lfa.12 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2019 10:01:59 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=gdAaLEanICDtrf1UUziP+MAP5XbLlViloTWMnVdfFxc=; b=hTSbeP3w3h6ToSUFzubF/A3evTz57Nnf6tVrBDUUwWaJMvK6vQjxynuUzlAc7E/O67 wEGuO/yx8h2GZuezw40alI1zbDoZgIHfSiIeE7F3UTphA2+oqB4DCj0VP/wZXBeAzUAC goCd3xLAVBwcjlPbUPWRkC29UKm95jM2uGn7kaLtajfZQnp3OijWey0+0Zz4341U5JJ6 wIMugo/CuYjxyBbbXOvw2/5fb8XeJPJXGLRadLIccx6Y9hfuJJZMMhTk8zpI+FL/QTEW 08UAxmLhNw4xr6YxsSVCsOG5HIxoVORcRtLb4kQBTZG6zCu4HI6ml+GbZPbuaiEgDhQi YA/Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWYbDHiwP09sCHm7FWx+qGL1n/QLhLQBCH1xPDNhJ8q7rZsGJWqa 6/2kHoUKxwMi2CjI9HTs2NnZ2yu2y5pjBurm5Es= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/UR7DjFOfA6KxULWwRfWfEvUpF0xrNS0T4AjsZrgFbjlap9koJqAageyR8hHcfi/d1S/PWGBaA7LpdxRuPLmiA= X-Received: by 2002:a19:8096:: with SMTP id b144mr31055120lfd.8.1546797717540; Sun, 06 Jan 2019 10:01:57 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7d7bc47d-04cf-2f9b-00a3-e3d9d92b3623@aceshardware.com> <72922F2C-9D27-47AA-BB1C-2DA8589CF008@rpi.edu> <92bd5362-d898-aa12-8f3d-9fbe23f38e0c@aceshardware.com> <26325c0b-4960-7739-72aa-c31c4e0638d3@aceshardware.com> In-Reply-To: From: Alan Somers Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 11:01:46 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components To: Brian Neal Cc: "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 5524F88286 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of asomers@gmail.com designates 209.85.167.43 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=asomers@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freebsd.org]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[43.167.85.209.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.89)[-0.889,0]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[asomers@freebsd.org,asomers@gmail.com]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[asomers@freebsd.org,asomers@gmail.com]; IP_SCORE(-1.10)[ipnet: 209.85.128.0/17(-3.77), asn: 15169(-1.67), country: US(-0.08)]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 18:02:00 -0000 But it's not a like-for-like comparison. Rust eliminates dead code at a later stage. If you want to compare the efficiency of generated code, you need to exclude the dead code that will be eliminated by LTO. And you shouldn't be counting the labels for either language, because they don't affect the machine code. If you want to compare build times, then you should actually measure build times. -Alan On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 10:51 AM Brian Neal wrote: > > Of course. But I'm counting like for like. So labels are counted for > all languages. And I definitely don't rely on LTO when comparing the > efficacy of compiler, especially since the linker can spend lots of time > eliminating dead-code (usually single-threaded), which means longer > build times. > > On 1/6/2019 9:17 AM, Alan Somers wrote: > > Those 21 lines aren't 21 instructions; you're counting labels. Also, > > the first three instructions aren't actually part of the function. > > They're dead code, and should be eliminate by LTO. However, Rust > > doesn't do LTO when compiling libraries; only when linking > > executables. The unwrap logic, etc is also not part of the function. > > So in this example, Rust produces only a few more instructions than C. > > Also, FYI the Rust expression "0..num" is exclusive on the right. > > It's equivalent to C's "for (int i = 0; i < num; i++)", though that > > doesn't change the instruction count. > > > > -Alan > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Jan 6 18:02:19 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52E351495C97 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 18:02:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asomers@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lj1-f171.google.com (mail-lj1-f171.google.com [209.85.208.171]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7150288302 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 18:02:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asomers@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lj1-f171.google.com with SMTP id t9-v6so36268151ljh.6 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2019 10:02:18 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=zkcu6Ps4STr3GbDy8xC2cQ0Z9y52bjUYPhm/aNkDrwU=; b=jjTbGypLUOQYh4SlpX2bpHf7UJw6zoEJIsfyoCFhoeckjbpmqngRAn3jwuErORI8sb znD4CJCT8zPD6ApxHtohYQYP3I1IAcRD78g7/nYcFO44415OZUavMq3lyQyOEvqWdRz0 z+oLaf02oKClZiLya5vu2xE12Pxiff33FiJwvvrAZpdLtZ4nWoWPO3GwgPquUqh7xC/7 GXFSLQX7+U33rma53Rmaj5i0/5LBrZhBd7Xxsvu5RJErNvV1KmrMbDfpUiCjsSB1Ih1W IYk0bO4alLFresLJkXhujaR9j2jHLJIuFv7qriY68/ZQld7A0NPrQAGH5i8DcwTUV/Gr +4eg== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukfBhzRmtu/YYu5rBwpWIpofhKFtiWUcQyXxLtn8Uy9Jvh0eqAHK M0kjX1150ukKDBhp59jT8bHo7/9YjDtm4pedUQk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN4LoXzqRq78l0zudPhCMBZbLu3tR6EswgNY5NisTn3iJZpTPTVEXaNs/uhYSqu+zT76yfy7V8BylmcunxTVbGI= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:b00a:: with SMTP id y10-v6mr16304370ljk.109.1546797287444; Sun, 06 Jan 2019 09:54:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7d7bc47d-04cf-2f9b-00a3-e3d9d92b3623@aceshardware.com> <72922F2C-9D27-47AA-BB1C-2DA8589CF008@rpi.edu> <92bd5362-d898-aa12-8f3d-9fbe23f38e0c@aceshardware.com> <26325c0b-4960-7739-72aa-c31c4e0638d3@aceshardware.com> In-Reply-To: From: Alan Somers Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 10:54:35 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components To: Igor Mozolevsky Cc: Brian Neal , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 7150288302 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of asomers@gmail.com designates 209.85.208.171 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=asomers@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.05 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freebsd.org]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.93)[-0.934,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[171.208.85.209.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[asomers@freebsd.org,asomers@gmail.com]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[171.208.85.209.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[asomers@freebsd.org,asomers@gmail.com]; IP_SCORE(-1.10)[ipnet: 209.85.128.0/17(-3.77), asn: 15169(-1.67), country: US(-0.08)]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 18:02:19 -0000 On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 10:49 AM Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > > On Sun, 6 Jan 2019 at 16:58, Brian Neal wrote: > > > I don't have it anymore, but yours is close enough. When compiling your > > first example, I get 156 instructions, including map iterators and rust > > result assert/unwrap logic. Your second example produces 21 lines, > > including a loop iterator: > > > > All of *nine* instructions in C including (a) constant running time, > i. e. O(1) cf. O(c), and (b) integer wrapping check-signal:- > > #include > > int32_t oddcount(int32_t c) { > const int32_t max_c = 92679; /* sqrt(INT32_MAX)*2-1 */ > return((c > max_c) ? 0: ((c + 1) / 2) * ((c + 1) / 2)); > } > > oddcount: > xor eax, eax > cmp edi, 92679 > jg .L1 > lea eax, [rdi+1] > mov ecx, 2 > cdq > idiv ecx > imul eax, eax > .L1: > ret > > Like I said, no matter what tool one uses, bugs are easy to introduce > (yes, even in Rust!), wrapping ints in the instant case... > > > > > -- > Igor M. Igor, please stop commenting unless you have something constructive to add. From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Jan 6 18:24:54 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 142631496620 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 18:24:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asomers@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lf1-f52.google.com (mail-lf1-f52.google.com [209.85.167.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 31CB088F3F for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 18:24:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asomers@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lf1-f52.google.com with SMTP id i26so28647043lfc.0 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2019 10:24:53 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:cc; bh=IttPdyRJb4AvhTCjI5/KmbHTdodakhVqwyYVlVt9Fno=; b=kjEbZfJH/RGGJ30JOCcBKK+qg14/VXk2XIjUbIGNJXYhQo9a61/F1b4g3tnAvxr3Im 4Q+JgZkgarZX9HlgtHv73MoEhrS/xqbpiMPfczkfn3hitoBKszRaoItOvtvGZjj8wacp 5H7rewGAKSX8vivdNuowGqpGkTO5R0LPSmpkEgRS4fizXrHA/n2c2F4RcXTPLnEqR/UQ eYN2EQchfi7U1nuW0bzXrRlJXEjhkiw34wp+D3O3I9Mi3ki9MLMHWiSuBrcVzparutkw Kt70SeC22DLCo8ErKxX54VVp97TnQZ6HQturYUSI9pg8MoJAD93ta2LUCHbdaiPFXgwo LKSw== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWZFsJaouwFbBhIhJSUA9jBeeRy0wgJux1LN8k0uL2BkEkMBAvnn exCiLXAsO9pzuc4eDgDa55eWu6Ky+QUgqDIRkK7pTg== X-Received: by 2002:a19:660a:: with SMTP id a10mt34472687lfc.146.1546799085954; Sun, 06 Jan 2019 10:24:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7d7bc47d-04cf-2f9b-00a3-e3d9d92b3623@aceshardware.com> <72922F2C-9D27-47AA-BB1C-2DA8589CF008@rpi.edu> <92bd5362-d898-aa12-8f3d-9fbe23f38e0c@aceshardware.com> <26325c0b-4960-7739-72aa-c31c4e0638d3@aceshardware.com> In-Reply-To: From: Alan Somers Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 11:24:34 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components Cc: Brian Neal , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 31CB088F3F X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of asomers@gmail.com designates 209.85.167.52 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=asomers@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.59 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.96)[-0.957,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.60)[-0.603,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.92)[-0.916,0]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[52.167.85.209.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; MISSING_TO(2.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[asomers@freebsd.org,asomers@gmail.com]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[asomers@freebsd.org,asomers@gmail.com]; IP_SCORE(-1.10)[ipnet: 209.85.128.0/17(-3.77), asn: 15169(-1.67), country: US(-0.08)]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 18:24:54 -0000 Actually, LTO isn't necessary. I just compiled those examples on my local machine, building them into a binary. Even without LTO, dead code like into_iter and Iterator::sum does not get included in the binary. I'm not sure why it does on godbolt. Perhaps they intentionally disable dead code elimination? -Alan On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 11:01 AM Alan Somers wrote: > > But it's not a like-for-like comparison. Rust eliminates dead code at > a later stage. If you want to compare the efficiency of generated > code, you need to exclude the dead code that will be eliminated by > LTO. And you shouldn't be counting the labels for either language, > because they don't affect the machine code. If you want to compare > build times, then you should actually measure build times. > -Alan > > On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 10:51 AM Brian Neal wrote: > > > > Of course. But I'm counting like for like. So labels are counted for > > all languages. And I definitely don't rely on LTO when comparing the > > efficacy of compiler, especially since the linker can spend lots of time > > eliminating dead-code (usually single-threaded), which means longer > > build times. > > > > On 1/6/2019 9:17 AM, Alan Somers wrote: > > > Those 21 lines aren't 21 instructions; you're counting labels. Also, > > > the first three instructions aren't actually part of the function. > > > They're dead code, and should be eliminate by LTO. However, Rust > > > doesn't do LTO when compiling libraries; only when linking > > > executables. The unwrap logic, etc is also not part of the function. > > > So in this example, Rust produces only a few more instructions than C. > > > Also, FYI the Rust expression "0..num" is exclusive on the right. > > > It's equivalent to C's "for (int i = 0; i < num; i++)", though that > > > doesn't change the instruction count. > > > > > > -Alan > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Jan 6 18:26:41 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C42B14966B8 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 18:26:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: from puchar.net (puchar.net [194.1.144.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "puchar.net", Issuer "puchar.net" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4160989025 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 18:26:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: Received: from 127.0.0.1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x06IQnM3048208 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 6 Jan 2019 19:26:49 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) Received: from localhost (puchar-wojtek@localhost) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id x06IQipg048205; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 19:26:44 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 19:26:44 +0100 (CET) From: Wojciech Puchar To: Igor Mozolevsky cc: Pratyush Yadav , Hackers freeBSD Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <201901021829.x02IT4Kc064169@slippy.cwsent.com> <361CCB81-AEB6-4EAC-9604-CD8F4C63948C@gmail.com> <6DF138FB-E730-477A-A992-8FE1944DDE94@exonetric.com> <451787DE-0659-4F7D-B011-904F90866DDB@gmail.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (BSF 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4160989025 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wojtek@puchar.net designates 194.1.144.90 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=wojtek@puchar.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.85 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[puchar.net]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: puchar.net]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.983,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[90.144.1.194.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; IP_SCORE(-3.56)[ip: (-9.38), ipnet: 194.1.144.0/24(-4.69), asn: 43476(-3.75), country: PL(0.03)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:43476, ipnet:194.1.144.0/24, country:PL]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 18:26:41 -0000 >> from ineptitude IMHO, but from honest mistakes. Languages that make >> your job easier by taking care of these common pitfalls are not so >> bad. > > That's because you simply engage your hands before engaging your > brain, and that's exactly what I meant by _d_i_s_c_i_p_l_i_n_e_! Write This is a "modern" programming where morons dominated. Common. From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Jan 6 18:28:59 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DF6E1496813 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 18:28:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: from puchar.net (puchar.net [194.1.144.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "puchar.net", Issuer "puchar.net" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4AD50891DB; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 18:28:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: Received: from 127.0.0.1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x06IT0bw048618 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 6 Jan 2019 19:29:00 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) Received: from localhost (puchar-wojtek@localhost) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id x06ISt5k048615; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 19:28:55 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 19:28:55 +0100 (CET) From: Wojciech Puchar To: Alan Somers cc: Igor Mozolevsky , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , Brian Neal Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <7d7bc47d-04cf-2f9b-00a3-e3d9d92b3623@aceshardware.com> <72922F2C-9D27-47AA-BB1C-2DA8589CF008@rpi.edu> <92bd5362-d898-aa12-8f3d-9fbe23f38e0c@aceshardware.com> <26325c0b-4960-7739-72aa-c31c4e0638d3@aceshardware.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (BSF 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4AD50891DB X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wojtek@puchar.net designates 194.1.144.90 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=wojtek@puchar.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.84 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[puchar.net]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: puchar.net]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.97)[-0.968,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[90.144.1.194.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; IP_SCORE(-3.56)[ip: (-9.39), ipnet: 194.1.144.0/24(-4.70), asn: 43476(-3.76), country: PL(0.03)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:43476, ipnet:194.1.144.0/24, country:PL]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 18:28:59 -0000 >> Igor M. > > Igor, please stop commenting unless you have something constructive to add. Simply start writing new FreeBSD fork in rust (or whatever you like) but stop polluting. From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Jan 6 18:30:57 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 892361496942 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 18:30:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: from puchar.net (puchar.net [194.1.144.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "puchar.net", Issuer "puchar.net" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CB5BB893AF for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 18:30:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: Received: from 127.0.0.1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x06IUx7h048946 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 6 Jan 2019 19:30:59 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) Received: from localhost (puchar-wojtek@localhost) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id x06IUswN048943; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 19:30:54 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 19:30:54 +0100 (CET) From: Wojciech Puchar To: Cy Schubert cc: Enji Cooper , Wojciech Puchar , Igor Mozolevsky , Hackers freeBSD Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components) In-Reply-To: <201901051953.x05JrucZ071109@slippy.cwsent.com> Message-ID: References: <201901051953.x05JrucZ071109@slippy.cwsent.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (BSF 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: CB5BB893AF X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wojtek@puchar.net designates 194.1.144.90 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=wojtek@puchar.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.86 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[puchar.net]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: puchar.net]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.982,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[90.144.1.194.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; IP_SCORE(-3.56)[ip: (-9.40), ipnet: 194.1.144.0/24(-4.70), asn: 43476(-3.76), country: PL(0.03)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:43476, ipnet:194.1.144.0/24, country:PL]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[gmail.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 18:30:57 -0000 > At $JOB my customers are migrating from AIX, Solaris and even Windows > to Linux and from traditional Linux to microservices run under why this "microservices" - which are simply complete programs without dependencies (or should be) - cannot be run simply as processes on different user accounts? From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Jan 6 18:44:02 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1578414970D2 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 18:44:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asomers@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lj1-f174.google.com (mail-lj1-f174.google.com [209.85.208.174]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 35EA889DD3 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 18:44:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asomers@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lj1-f174.google.com with SMTP id q2-v6so36289675lji.10 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2019 10:44:01 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=r1Ents6zeoOYKVbjoO4ObZNqnGUXZIg0uZmz7L0nM4s=; b=qBpF04zF8jPokRQU41MK21bFdOf1z1W8Y/28jC9Me7tgEXXLRYZp5wAlTx4IaMyW+M nta3EdzKDKfKfdYcBWcAjjcsPuN7NWCKmj8Qq+trZx4u5mDWvm3SRP0iBhL71zaSCsmp 4iY4t/Q1FrjpSbgbfg+rhjVYIONjaY/4P0bFvSoh6000AsBwuDkyZDCj61JaGOtuW5zh Gv9o/wyZyLSJiQsmQf+nWu3jdWy0AAkbTC3hqfa1sQMq+WR9gjGzsBNZByLcNe9zptYe 6sn2syaGwM1t+oDj2LekZAz5BksIiMplrupnUrUxz2bEBSJXjJgMLc65sd8XjiZPoguy a8sg== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukf1T9DcaXG1osNQ0DPG4MLKJ84Qnd2bZTim+wkdiVxtWRabFsIq eTA4ROsoGfbnn1/DhME8TGRtYj4hnpyBdrhUw4o= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN5Bij0XdqP+rOPNRBDx9SjLkI2zYsKBWnLY7RcgMfU5rneZPdE6EkZmlf8J9D+Ufm297l+vGo/PD65m4pCXOCc= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:5418:: with SMTP id i24-v6mr32891124ljb.51.1546800234352; Sun, 06 Jan 2019 10:43:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <201901051953.x05JrucZ071109@slippy.cwsent.com> In-Reply-To: From: Alan Somers Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 11:43:42 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components) To: Wojciech Puchar Cc: Cy Schubert , Hackers freeBSD , Igor Mozolevsky , Enji Cooper Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 35EA889DD3 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of asomers@gmail.com designates 209.85.208.174 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=asomers@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.04 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[174.208.85.209.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.93)[-0.930,0]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[asomers@freebsd.org,asomers@gmail.com]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[asomers@freebsd.org,asomers@gmail.com]; IP_SCORE(-1.10)[ipnet: 209.85.128.0/17(-3.77), asn: 15169(-1.67), country: US(-0.08)]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 18:44:02 -0000 On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 11:31 AM Wojciech Puchar wrote: > > > At $JOB my customers are migrating from AIX, Solaris and even Windows > > to Linux and from traditional Linux to microservices run under > why this "microservices" - which are simply complete programs without > dependencies (or should be) - cannot be run simply as processes on > different user accounts? Several reasons: 1) Separate accounts don't provide as much security as separate containers. Capsicum does, but people aren't used to using Capsicum yet. And who can blame them? Writing a Capsicum program is harder than writing a normal program and deploying it in a container. 2) Fragmentation. The Linux world is much more fragmented than the FreeBSD world. It's hard to write a program that will work correctly on every Linux distro without modification. So people bundle their applications with entire userlands as a container image. That reduces its external dependencies to just the Linux kernel. Bloated, yes. But easy. 3) Fashion. You may not care about the latest IT craze, but a lot of IT departments do. And you can't change their minds all by yourself. If FreeBSD is to be used by people who deploy microservices, then it needs to do what they want. That means it needs Docker or something similar (IT admins won't want to learn ezjail if they're already comfortable with Docker), or we need to convince people to use CloudABI. CloudABI has the potential to outperform containers. It just hasn't gained traction yet. -Alan From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Jan 6 19:09:56 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D8C51497BBE for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 19:09:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: from puchar.net (puchar.net [194.1.144.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "puchar.net", Issuer "puchar.net" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C7CCF8AB89; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 19:09:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: Received: from 127.0.0.1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x06J9x2C055764 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 6 Jan 2019 20:09:59 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) Received: from localhost (puchar-wojtek@localhost) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id x06J9sRb055761; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 20:09:54 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 20:09:54 +0100 (CET) From: Wojciech Puchar To: Alan Somers cc: Wojciech Puchar , Cy Schubert , Hackers freeBSD , Igor Mozolevsky , Enji Cooper Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <201901051953.x05JrucZ071109@slippy.cwsent.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (BSF 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: C7CCF8AB89 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wojtek@puchar.net designates 194.1.144.90 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=wojtek@puchar.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.84 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[puchar.net]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: puchar.net]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.96)[-0.959,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[90.144.1.194.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; IP_SCORE(-3.57)[ip: (-9.40), ipnet: 194.1.144.0/24(-4.70), asn: 43476(-3.76), country: PL(0.03)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:43476, ipnet:194.1.144.0/24, country:PL]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 19:09:56 -0000 >> why this "microservices" - which are simply complete programs without >> dependencies (or should be) - cannot be run simply as processes on >> different user accounts? > > Several reasons: > 1) Separate accounts don't provide as much security as separate > containers. Capsicum does, but people aren't used to using Capsicum I use separate processes and don't feel the lack of security. I don't use capsicum too. Could you explain it more precisely why standard process and user/group separation is insufficient? Simply access rights and setting security.bsd.see_other_uids=0 is enough for me. If something could be added then it would be limiting what ports can each user open. But it's not really a problem. > 2) Fragmentation. The Linux world is much more fragmented than the > FreeBSD world. It's hard to write a program that will work correctly That's what i agree with you. Anyway if these microservices would be statically linked this argument would be irrevelant. And from what i've read it's how microservices should be made. > 3) Fashion. You may not care about the latest IT craze, but a lot of > IT departments do. And you can't change their minds all by yourself. I don't even try to change their minds. I don't discuss with such people. You can discuss and present arguments to people that don't think. > If FreeBSD is to be used by people who deploy microservices, then it > needs to do what they want. That means it needs Docker or something > similar (IT admins won't want to learn ezjail if they're already > comfortable with Docker), or we need to convince people to use > CloudABI. CloudABI has the potential to outperform containers. It > just hasn't gained traction yet. > -Alan Docker is already in ports. If someone want to use it - what a problem? Anyway if they prefer linux let they use linux. From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Jan 6 19:12:34 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80F131497E3C for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 19:12:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from smtp-out-so.shaw.ca (smtp-out-so.shaw.ca [64.59.136.137]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 477CE8AF74 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 19:12:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.67.125.17]) by shaw.ca with ESMTPA id gDqPgoElVnBo4gDqRgs61h; Sun, 06 Jan 2019 12:12:25 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=J8fUEzvS c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:117 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=3JhidrIBZZsA:10 a=heTAvR70AAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=xDf4x9wfa6r8WPPGpXEA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=UrJ2pwYPfabwj1STkZPu:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy [10.1.1.91]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 50BAE3389; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 11:12:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id x06JCL25004327; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 11:12:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from slippy (cy@localhost) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id x06JCKCa004324; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 11:12:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Message-Id: <201901061912.x06JCKCa004324@slippy.cwsent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: slippy.cwsent.com: cy owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.8.0 04/21/2012 with nmh-1.7.1 Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: Wojciech Puchar cc: Cy Schubert , Enji Cooper , Igor Mozolevsky , Hackers freeBSD Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components) In-Reply-To: Message from Wojciech Puchar of "Sun, 06 Jan 2019 19:30:54 +0100." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 11:12:20 -0800 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfCDhteG/W9vixu9kas4FqitDNjOZ3PPbHdIGjJf7Dqy4JpXZfmsxbLb+f9id8RbvqPVOtsVlrhbQZ8VsxJ0eiuAnKmhBu5vhg5tLIDJ3trYlvokWfkRU PwVdi36hJlMrFPlkCMgpOj2hhptybG19U7Lrz+Eos4JpZ4aga8JWrN8S3BWebGs8VgmvMevxQUexWy+n+okO3u1tHu4LaCXaVm3KwlFcSZYvHreTG17UyyE0 YT1Rc2mBGfMz08IgHY9h1CRCEMagaEJsXXVP/XofEWLiqNJeKnsgmlodjUSKsN2J X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 477CE8AF74 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.37 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; IP_SCORE(-1.71)[ip: (-4.12), ipnet: 64.59.128.0/20(-2.42), asn: 6327(-1.94), country: CA(-0.09)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: spqr.komquats.com]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.94)[-0.942,0]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[17.125.67.70.zen.spamhaus.org : 127.0.0.11]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6327, ipnet:64.59.128.0/20, country:CA]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[137.136.59.64.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 19:12:34 -0000 In message , Wojciech Puchar wr ites: > > At $JOB my customers are migrating from AIX, Solaris and even Windows > > to Linux and from traditional Linux to microservices run under > why this "microservices" - which are simply complete programs without > dependencies (or should be) - cannot be run simply as processes on > different user accounts? Because each is a jail, not a full blown jail like but a lite-jail. Think of it this way. When I first got into this business everything was run on a huge machine, a mainframe. Later applications were moved from the mainframe to individual machines, databases to database servers, applications to application servers, front end processes to web or proxy servers. Now these services are run on microservices. You are suggesting we go back to the 1960's and 1970's mainframe model. As much as you and I want mainframes back, those days are gone. -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Jan 6 19:25:18 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 998A81498222 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 19:25:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from mail-oi1-f172.google.com (mail-oi1-f172.google.com [209.85.167.172]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8FABD8B47D for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 19:25:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: by mail-oi1-f172.google.com with SMTP id r62so34332236oie.1 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2019 11:25:17 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9G3CdH0HMzVGtvVg2SOyaURtPnnBBJTfBmyGGgWZkTg=; b=Xf8qRYjIuc9qOEFwW6pDBTm74+6uJiq66ZyLPdzCPWtiaYxmPkwFultjjOLZrSZ4QY 5TdbUdOKioIMsai5zw2a77SAg/HTzBfWoDrDcZDhkx4NEW6WOvalTGdRcEZAbzP6BCj1 qAF0I4AAff5BGENtC812afwOwJNd7i/zz2ylTpCo2SpNW4/qtwejKt5Vbc4RLDlFoaI+ FWeUmFPkuW9JzfwR+682HQWw0BzVLKnXJUxaba3qUAiHvDmyW5fN5twxCJG8OWzJS786 YyUWT3VJWstUbE/gzXtUcmowu6HO4sAQVTswgnhHO/YzQzzW5+wKGARWFr1nq9IWRYEW cHWw== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukeXwMY4+RDty1omVMN7p95esuI6kvhs9zHRcKd3XDqQPsz+yxxS 6ZJ/O8mfPCJC1lEL8RJEXwXCPbExBAUb4awCflzvWw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN5VArbMp6evSVTn7FNlxKkHXH29+1oO5iM+CvkFVHGnYf/S08jljVScxs/lODZPO9arIxZ26qbVNHGIABOO0iM= X-Received: by 2002:aca:5987:: with SMTP id n129mr6560216oib.174.1546802711136; Sun, 06 Jan 2019 11:25:11 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <201901051953.x05JrucZ071109@slippy.cwsent.com> In-Reply-To: From: Igor Mozolevsky Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 19:24:35 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components) To: Wojciech Puchar Cc: Hackers freeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 8FABD8B47D X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mozolevsky@gmail.com designates 209.85.167.172 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mozolevsky@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.09 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[hybrid-lab.co.uk]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[172.167.85.209.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.92)[-0.917,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk,mozolevsky@gmail.com]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk,mozolevsky@gmail.com]; IP_SCORE(-1.16)[ip: (-0.30), ipnet: 209.85.128.0/17(-3.77), asn: 15169(-1.67), country: US(-0.08)]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 19:25:18 -0000 On Sun, 6 Jan 2019 at 19:09, Wojciech Puchar wrote: > If something could be added then it would be limiting what ports can each > user open. But it's not really a problem. Actually what would be really great is to be able to limit IP addresses or VLANs to UIDs/GIDs. -- Igor M. From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Jan 6 19:44:34 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 826501498906 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 19:44:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from smtp-out-so.shaw.ca (smtp-out-so.shaw.ca [64.59.136.137]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EFC188C2F8; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 19:44:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.67.125.17]) by shaw.ca with ESMTPA id gELWgoO6GnBo4gELXgsBOK; Sun, 06 Jan 2019 12:44:31 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=J8fUEzvS c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:117 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=3JhidrIBZZsA:10 a=heTAvR70AAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=XAVDl5r07_o9Xhc2MtAA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=UJ0tAi3fqDAA:10 a=UrJ2pwYPfabwj1STkZPu:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy [10.1.1.91]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F2315341C; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 11:44:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id x06JiTWZ004883; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 11:44:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from slippy (cy@localhost) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id x06JiTwK004880; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 11:44:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Message-Id: <201901061944.x06JiTwK004880@slippy.cwsent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: slippy.cwsent.com: cy owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.8.0 04/21/2012 with nmh-1.7.1 Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: Wojciech Puchar cc: Alan Somers , Cy Schubert , Hackers freeBSD , Igor Mozolevsky , Enji Cooper Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components) In-Reply-To: Message from Wojciech Puchar of "Sun, 06 Jan 2019 20:09:54 +0100." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 11:44:29 -0800 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfHcNGSAGsf7SsebWqrbFfRhWkuEWcTTSC408tqohQgB7UTZyTajthC0Cyesi0R0zuQ25FUWA/XEymAJVcBLf+VhbdSpeaCr0EJFBDDn0YOH7QbDjQCFO u6i3IBDE2FIGxEEkevE0JaT/KuScYs0DbzwuyOUUnj3bkNMauIiN8aK74steMsKJxNxbVhJ5vcmz0acRABzBpWyrJz+kmaW/MpACAN0c724OiJnEryF0VG3V SLj7IQ/L6OuOrkFU+I6OElmI/DhTaYFbayQ2ofWYwg0y64UVCbBZW4xAS5HdVk8hIpWAE+yOAjaYbsqvgRcKIw== X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: EFC188C2F8 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.32 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[17.125.67.70.zen.spamhaus.org : 127.0.0.11]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: spqr.komquats.com]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.92)[-0.924,0]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6327, ipnet:64.59.128.0/20, country:CA]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-1.69)[ip: (-4.01), ipnet: 64.59.128.0/20(-2.41), asn: 6327(-1.93), country: CA(-0.09)]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[137.136.59.64.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 19:44:34 -0000 In message , Wojciech Puchar wr ites: > >> why this "microservices" - which are simply complete programs without > >> dependencies (or should be) - cannot be run simply as processes on > >> different user accounts? > > > > Several reasons: > > 1) Separate accounts don't provide as much security as separate > > containers. Capsicum does, but people aren't used to using Capsicum > > I use separate processes and don't feel the lack of security. I don't use > capsicum too. Really? Explain, please. > > Could you explain it more precisely why standard process and user/group > separation is insufficient? Why then did the industry move from mainframes to the client/server model? > > Simply access rights and setting > security.bsd.see_other_uids=0 > > is enough for me. This is nearsighted. > > If something could be added then it would be limiting what ports can each > user open. But it's not really a problem. The UNIX security model, even with ACLs, POSIX.1e, and capsicum, sucks. Again, we had that kind of model on the mainframe. Not quite TCP/IP ports but Google RACF and ACF2. > > > 2) Fragmentation. The Linux world is much more fragmented than the > > FreeBSD world. It's hard to write a program that will work correctly > > That's what i agree with you. > > Anyway if these microservices would be statically linked this argument > would be irrevelant. And from what i've read it's how microservices should > be made. They're self contained, linked against libraries in the container. > > > 3) Fashion. You may not care about the latest IT craze, but a lot of > > IT departments do. And you can't change their minds all by yourself. > > I don't even try to change their minds. I don't discuss with such people. > You can discuss and present arguments to people that don't think. When you do your own thing you become irrelevant. Lucky for me I'm close enough to retirement it doesn't matter however if I was younger I'd have to go with the times. Having said that, I choose to learn new technologies because I intend to continue to contract after retirement for the travel money. You have to realize that the choices made by the industry do make sense when you view them from the point of view of big capital. The idea is to reduce money spent on developers, sysadmins, computers and resources. Not that I say this is good but it is the world we live in. > > > If FreeBSD is to be used by people who deploy microservices, then it > > needs to do what they want. That means it needs Docker or something > > similar (IT admins won't want to learn ezjail if they're already > > comfortable with Docker), or we need to convince people to use > > CloudABI. CloudABI has the potential to outperform containers. It > > just hasn't gained traction yet. > > -Alan > > Docker is already in ports. If someone want to use it - what a problem? CloudABI is an attempt to offer an alternative. It didn't have the momentum that Docker and CR-IO (which will replace Docker) do. One day we will need to implement Linux namespaces and cgroups (which IMO are inferior to jails) but apps which intimately interface with those facilities should be able to port over to FreeBSD relatively easily. > > Anyway if they prefer linux let they use linux. And 95% of the UNIX-like world does. Should we give up and become a hobby O/S, like some other examples we can think of? Linuxisms suck but that's the world we live in. -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Jan 6 20:28:03 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 325B91499899 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 20:28:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: from puchar.net (puchar.net [194.1.144.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "puchar.net", Issuer "puchar.net" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 00B828DB4C; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 20:28:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: Received: from 127.0.0.1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x06KS6kZ067693 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 6 Jan 2019 21:28:06 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) Received: from localhost (puchar-wojtek@localhost) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id x06KS04d067690; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 21:28:00 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 21:28:00 +0100 (CET) From: Wojciech Puchar To: Cy Schubert cc: Wojciech Puchar , Enji Cooper , Igor Mozolevsky , Alan Somers , Hackers freeBSD Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components) In-Reply-To: <201901061944.x06JiTwK004880@slippy.cwsent.com> Message-ID: References: <201901061944.x06JiTwK004880@slippy.cwsent.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (BSF 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 00B828DB4C X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wojtek@puchar.net designates 194.1.144.90 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=wojtek@puchar.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.85 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[puchar.net]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: puchar.net]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.977,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[90.144.1.194.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; IP_SCORE(-3.57)[ip: (-9.41), ipnet: 194.1.144.0/24(-4.70), asn: 43476(-3.76), country: PL(0.03)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:43476, ipnet:194.1.144.0/24, country:PL]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 20:28:03 -0000 >> I use separate processes and don't feel the lack of security. I don't use >> capsicum too. > > Really? Explain, please. What to explain. I run program A as user A and program B as user B. Access rights on user A $HOME is 700 as well as user B. Both programs (it may be apache server) listens to some port on localhost One proxy servers presents them to outer world as webpage A and B. That's all. >> Could you explain it more precisely why standard process and user/group >> separation is insufficient? > > Why then did the industry move from mainframes to the client/server > model? > I don't understand what your question have to running programs on different users under unix. Mainframes are IBM System z or earlier computers. Very expensive. >> If something could be added then it would be limiting what ports can each >> user open. But it's not really a problem. > > The UNIX security model, even with ACLs, POSIX.1e, and capsicum, sucks. No explanation why. For me it's the best model i know. >> be made. > > They're self contained, linked against libraries in the container. So it should be possible to just put them on user account with all their files and run them. Unless author assumed it needs root privileges which is plain wrong. > > When you do your own thing you become irrelevant. Lucky for me I'm > close enough to retirement it doesn't matter however if I was younger Strange that you are not young and don't see that all of today "inventions" are solutions to nonexisting problems. >> >> Anyway if they prefer linux let they use linux. > > And 95% of the UNIX-like world does. Should we give up and become a > hobby O/S, like some other examples we can think of? The alternative is to become the same as linux which doesn't make sense. From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Jan 6 20:30:53 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A714B14999ED for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 20:30:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: from puchar.net (puchar.net [194.1.144.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "puchar.net", Issuer "puchar.net" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E88438E00A for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 20:30:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: Received: from 127.0.0.1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x06KUxha068205 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 6 Jan 2019 21:30:59 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) Received: from localhost (puchar-wojtek@localhost) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id x06KUsxd068201; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 21:30:54 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 21:30:54 +0100 (CET) From: Wojciech Puchar To: Cy Schubert cc: Wojciech Puchar , Enji Cooper , Igor Mozolevsky , Hackers freeBSD Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components) In-Reply-To: <201901061912.x06JCKCa004324@slippy.cwsent.com> Message-ID: References: <201901061912.x06JCKCa004324@slippy.cwsent.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (BSF 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: E88438E00A X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wojtek@puchar.net designates 194.1.144.90 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=wojtek@puchar.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.87 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[puchar.net]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: puchar.net]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.985,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[90.144.1.194.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; IP_SCORE(-3.57)[ip: (-9.41), ipnet: 194.1.144.0/24(-4.71), asn: 43476(-3.76), country: PL(0.03)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:43476, ipnet:194.1.144.0/24, country:PL]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 20:30:53 -0000 >> dependencies (or should be) - cannot be run simply as processes on >> different user accounts? > > Because each is a jail, not a full blown jail like but a lite-jail. > > Think of it this way. When I first got into this business everything > was run on a huge machine, a mainframe. Later applications were moved > from the mainframe to individual machines, databases to database and this was wrong. under unix system it could just run in separate user accounts. The latter virtualization or jails is just wrong attempt to solve a problem that was created. Instead of simply doing it right. > web or proxy servers. Now these services are run on microservices. > > You are suggesting we go back to the 1960's and 1970's mainframe model. Something. just without overpriced IBM hardware and strange IBM software - using instead cheap hardware and good unix system. This is the solution that works. All others only create problems while solving others. From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Jan 6 20:42:44 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BB1F149A2AB for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 20:42:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D1ED8F57D for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 20:42:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.55.3]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED6A814831; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 20:42:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x06KgeJX095699 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 6 Jan 2019 20:42:41 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: (from phk@localhost) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id x06Kgeve095698; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 20:42:40 GMT (envelope-from phk) To: Wojciech Puchar cc: Cy Schubert , Hackers freeBSD , Igor Mozolevsky , Enji Cooper Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components) In-reply-to: From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" References: <201901061912.x06JCKCa004324@slippy.cwsent.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <95696.1546807359.1@critter.freebsd.dk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 20:42:40 +0000 Message-ID: <95697.1546807360@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 6D1ED8F57D X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.01 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.57)[0.568,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freebsd.dk]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.32)[0.317,0]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: phk.freebsd.dk]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.74)[0.738,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[phk@phk.freebsd.dk,phk@critter.freebsd.dk]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:1835, ipnet:130.225.0.0/16, country:EU]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[phk@phk.freebsd.dk,phk@critter.freebsd.dk]; IP_SCORE(0.09)[asn: 1835(0.48), country: EU(-0.00)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 20:42:44 -0000 -------- In message , Wojciech Puch= ar writes: >and this was wrong. under unix system it could just run in separate user = >accounts. > >The latter virtualization or jails is just wrong attempt to solve a = >problem that was created. Instead of simply doing it right. Ok, that is my que... Jails have one important property which as far as I know is unique to all other virtualizations: You can reach into the jail, unseen. That means that if your jail has been compromised, you can study the running processes while they run, without entering the jail through any mechanism the attacker controls. (trojaned sshd(8) and so forth.) I have a mailbox full of anecdotes about how people have been having fun with attackers in jails that way: Moving files around, changing modes on files, killing processes, and the winner so far: swapping emacs(1) and vi(1) randomly. As far as I know, that is a uniqu security feature of jais? -- = Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe = Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence= . From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Jan 6 20:54:54 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8616F149A669 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 20:54:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: from puchar.net (puchar.net [194.1.144.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "puchar.net", Issuer "puchar.net" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BBC4F8FEED for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 20:54:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: Received: from 127.0.0.1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x06KswCG071990 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 6 Jan 2019 21:54:58 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) Received: from localhost (puchar-wojtek@localhost) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id x06Ksrv7071987; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 21:54:53 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 21:54:53 +0100 (CET) From: Wojciech Puchar To: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: Wojciech Puchar , Cy Schubert , Hackers freeBSD , Igor Mozolevsky , Enji Cooper Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components) In-Reply-To: <95697.1546807360@critter.freebsd.dk> Message-ID: References: <201901061912.x06JCKCa004324@slippy.cwsent.com> <95697.1546807360@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (BSF 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: BBC4F8FEED X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wojtek@puchar.net designates 194.1.144.90 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=wojtek@puchar.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.87 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: puchar.net]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.984,0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:43476, ipnet:194.1.144.0/24, country:PL]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[puchar.net]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[90.144.1.194.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; IP_SCORE(-3.57)[ip: (-9.42), ipnet: 194.1.144.0/24(-4.71), asn: 43476(-3.77), country: PL(0.03)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 20:54:54 -0000 >> problem that was created. Instead of simply doing it right. > > Ok, that is my que... > > Jails have one important property which as far as I know is unique to > all other virtualizations: You can reach into the jail, unseen. I don't mean jails are bad. They are very useful. But are NOT needed for most cases. From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Jan 6 21:06:38 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92879149B5F8 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 21:06:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from smtp-out-so.shaw.ca (smtp-out-so.shaw.ca [64.59.136.137]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B04A490E87 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 21:06:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.67.125.17]) by shaw.ca with ESMTPA id gFcug0TJw82YcgFcvgUnlv; Sun, 06 Jan 2019 14:06:35 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=NNSrBHyg c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:117 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=3JhidrIBZZsA:10 a=heTAvR70AAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=c-B9ixgxJOhS87zMsocA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=UrJ2pwYPfabwj1STkZPu:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy [10.1.1.91]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 51F0E360C; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 13:06:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id x06L6VRw005551; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 13:06:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from slippy (cy@localhost) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id x06L6UOH005548; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 13:06:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Message-Id: <201901062106.x06L6UOH005548@slippy.cwsent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: slippy.cwsent.com: cy owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.8.0 04/21/2012 with nmh-1.7.1 Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: Wojciech Puchar cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Cy Schubert , Hackers freeBSD , Igor Mozolevsky , Enji Cooper Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components) In-Reply-To: Message from Wojciech Puchar of "Sun, 06 Jan 2019 21:54:53 +0100." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 13:06:30 -0800 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfFi1fGNZ/EaWX3CInM16GwQIP/3aTEZSv0+tuZyhqLRO0k2E+0Yqb4jmE3gyBwC5ua1oznf7z2weRXX6w4zrxYVSEAi1+DcK4upITiGBO6T7FAsaih5X b4IH8T0QtFMeh1yWhZsmczzj/apEmfg924ihWpOVYRCGW5Y70wLmfa2MGK/CD/UBVjy0kc5dhoXd92SvbupK25MSii5hMOYqLoh8WlUVe1aA1+GaOs6LWGSU +lZiroWHsPDWJsEcRNLxPMrd0n3u+cusQXemAddZtIqsm8Ho7JZqbVxBcd+4/LdFPOYD9F0ejYWIFS7Gm50YsQ== X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: B04A490E87 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.34 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; IP_SCORE(-1.66)[ip: (-3.91), ipnet: 64.59.128.0/20(-2.39), asn: 6327(-1.91), country: CA(-0.09)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: spqr.komquats.com]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.975,0]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[17.125.67.70.zen.spamhaus.org : 127.0.0.11]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6327, ipnet:64.59.128.0/20, country:CA]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[137.136.59.64.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 21:06:38 -0000 In message , Wojciech Puchar wr ites: > >> problem that was created. Instead of simply doing it right. > > > > Ok, that is my que... > > > > Jails have one important property which as far as I know is unique to > > all other virtualizations: You can reach into the jail, unseen. > > I don't mean jails are bad. They are very useful. > > But are NOT needed for most cases. I give up. I'm sorry I started this sub-thread. -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Jan 6 22:06:18 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37ADF149D10A for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 22:06:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brian@aceshardware.com) Received: from mail.aceshardware.com (mail.aceshardware.com [52.52.37.31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 367B993949; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 22:06:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brian@aceshardware.com) Received: from [10.0.0.102] (unknown [71.145.208.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.aceshardware.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3854D20130F; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 22:06:13 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aceshardware.com; s=dkim; t=1546812375; h=from:from:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=f2Efj2THKW9dG84bSDUlWKFl0vWMKUmRDDv/iC5xk38=; b=Wbemmby50iVq2PQFLycAi46i7GP9XzZYstn1pQ30ibNdyEh2PzwN8ATdqxJdZ8lgxFWFNB AAiGALpqpLtoEfROHedzHphd/QjfGoi9g9urSCsooQ5+RYhf1vZ9ipfXrODBKyObMe/jxh 3P6ek4cZvvJ2rOyQpVSAuNCJVHz2gWTblfY3KUe75PtC4LOBmz7TrCUPfJeFGnpV56jUpU meRp3nB0k1BbEa2rnFRcOafdaD0GsbBLsTqkpnxxskILVcKEJAByMSWfmogGxS56zIpBMP nbLV9qY4aO1cKNIVRMzI9Q7HfWZ7fTQhz6CqHMZNnCbR2gpSdWnMGG33JCQXFw== Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components To: Alan Somers Cc: "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" References: <7d7bc47d-04cf-2f9b-00a3-e3d9d92b3623@aceshardware.com> <72922F2C-9D27-47AA-BB1C-2DA8589CF008@rpi.edu> <92bd5362-d898-aa12-8f3d-9fbe23f38e0c@aceshardware.com> <26325c0b-4960-7739-72aa-c31c4e0638d3@aceshardware.com> From: Brian Neal Message-ID: <20ad6ace-db43-7675-a6d3-813a71ac3a9a@aceshardware.com> Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 14:06:09 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:65.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/65.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 367B993949 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=aceshardware.com header.s=dkim header.b=Wbemmby5; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=aceshardware.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.13 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[aceshardware.com:s=dkim]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.31)[0.315,0]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.997,0]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: mail.aceshardware.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[aceshardware.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[aceshardware.com,none]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-0.64)[ipnet: 52.52.0.0/15(-1.84), asn: 16509(-1.25), country: US(-0.08)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16509, ipnet:52.52.0.0/15, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2019 22:06:18 -0000 I'm glad you mentioned build times, because I did, in fact, measure them... > Compiler Flags Inst. Count Build Time > ====================================================================== > clang 7.0.0 none 33 296ms > -O3 23 341ms > rustc 1.31.0 none 110 606ms > -C opt-level=3 67 643ms > gcc 8.2 none 37 211ms > -O2 24 249ms > -O3 119* 206ms On 1/6/2019 10:01 AM, Alan Somers wrote: > But it's not a like-for-like comparison. Rust eliminates dead code at > a later stage. If you want to compare the efficiency of generated > code, you need to exclude the dead code that will be eliminated by > LTO. And you shouldn't be counting the labels for either language, > because they don't affect the machine code. If you want to compare > build times, then you should actually measure build times. > -Alan From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mon Jan 7 01:11:58 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A273C1481366 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 01:11:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rcarter@pinyon.org) Received: from h2.pinyon.org (h2.pinyon.org [65.101.20.170]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 713886AB29 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 01:11:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rcarter@pinyon.org) Received: by h2.pinyon.org (Postfix, from userid 58) id 69CAE32635; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 18:11:47 -0700 (MST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=pinyon.org; s=DKIM; t=1546823507; bh=qww1WCSeIK4HgG0tXOq8wkuUvAVhA9nC4avJHZNQwSw=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=dAzjXxQ5a6qlfF6qfu2FSiTeX3/JhtLXBrwRtYN5VlMoEbwJ6xvpbxEkO2UPguILm U5iSRc3Z8Jqb/8OKZpQfMYxpkjD+8abGOkd+lat3I4ZbIa4PS31Ya65CKp/7fhbm5D LT4lwURBiFbW9phOFA7uFUmbhCK4446X4vPSFroc= X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on h2.n1.pinyon.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,URIBL_BLOCKED shortcircuit=no autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from [10.0.10.15] (h1.pinyon.org [65.101.20.169]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by h2.pinyon.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 490BE32630 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 18:11:46 -0700 (MST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=pinyon.org; s=DKIM; t=1546823506; bh=qww1WCSeIK4HgG0tXOq8wkuUvAVhA9nC4avJHZNQwSw=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=bpIou8wWEokEISjmDQk7rZreID4YlttHzyJSYkKpTdqW02FxHye56RLzuxrLYwwJn E1acEwH0QRlnooDiWT3gEz3MW4GqA66kl8wd/TjQ5VCg5ycSl9zg9QNgDdJdlpsIJh 1bubhHUYtIEcqPZYzutl2FCJNztFlswkrTs4lBT8= Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <201901062106.x06L6UOH005548@slippy.cwsent.com> From: "Russell L. Carter" Message-ID: <6c06d8d2-be84-c107-8528-e73d2d449a9b@pinyon.org> Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 18:11:45 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <201901062106.x06L6UOH005548@slippy.cwsent.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 713886AB29 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=pinyon.org header.s=DKIM header.b=dAzjXxQ5; dkim=pass header.d=pinyon.org header.s=DKIM header.b=bpIou8wW; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of rcarter@pinyon.org designates 65.101.20.170 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=rcarter@pinyon.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.40 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[pinyon.org:s=DKIM]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[pinyon.org]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[pinyon.org:+]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[h2.pinyon.org,h1.pinyon.org]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.89)[-0.891,0]; IP_SCORE(-1.00)[ipnet: 65.100.0.0/14(-4.91), asn: 209(0.01), country: US(-0.08)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:209, ipnet:65.100.0.0/14, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2019 01:11:58 -0000 On 1/6/19 2:06 PM, Cy Schubert wrote: > In message , Wojciech > Puchar wr > ites: >>>> problem that was created. Instead of simply doing it right. >>> >>> Ok, that is my que... >>> >>> Jails have one important property which as far as I know is unique to >>> all other virtualizations: You can reach into the jail, unseen. >> >> I don't mean jails are bad. They are very useful. >> >> But are NOT needed for most cases. > > I give up. I'm sorry I started this sub-thread. > > You should have no regrets. I paid quite close attention because I have similar inclinations as Wojciech, but Poul and Alan's POV was liberating. Collateral damage, it seems. Russell From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mon Jan 7 01:13:38 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A037A14813FA for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 01:13:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kamisouckova@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vk1-f176.google.com (mail-vk1-f176.google.com [209.85.221.176]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B47466AC56; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 01:13:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kamisouckova@gmail.com) Received: by mail-vk1-f176.google.com with SMTP id d201so9069986vka.0; Sun, 06 Jan 2019 17:13:36 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=GkCh0rNMMpb4u+gN5zSXtRqw7VVArfe11g41/xX9GNE=; b=GfX5ke+zly1AEtTr+ds7D+PQJwBIL/qBTPNy9W2nNn59hMjTU+fPA7NH7vnO+Frb9B WApqbw5YUSWX9/xkwr4PDtBzev7DtrQo7jWZHLV1Rf59EKjPMMxhP9C8M04wXPRAM773 tvUnAtaGWQEStJvlNMzp95bPdpKi8msADlXJKPK0Ib5lKAjFsMrGn9liElyez85AhHJi vcBXJsUdPUerWy/o/lJ08egGdu6R7NAqjnHdlBVF7zBF0d2TV36dSPMqB06JATL5wOCN t+eicHZDIkShn7zBRLxbx2OXB6+uDb5OJKsC5zqFvu12qO7N06WEBFJmJVEEk7Njj5SK xhuQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukd8ktqOpJOxt3yr0AtY8o6faRRF9Vrgq7hEp57hDwuPaUpPT9PP S47JvrulnqqMcmjh6HvGhZzaN9YCHNEVf0cy8esDt/o5 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN7UeflrUA/Fl4pkboYoPKwxXlM6NOK0fapTpDncONCaL+a5LoUt5AK/tOAKCmsGmfqgvDm3VfCRBOfnfderk1U= X-Received: by 2002:a1f:e807:: with SMTP id f7mr21359284vkh.16.1546816735534; Sun, 06 Jan 2019 15:18:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7d7bc47d-04cf-2f9b-00a3-e3d9d92b3623@aceshardware.com> <72922F2C-9D27-47AA-BB1C-2DA8589CF008@rpi.edu> <92bd5362-d898-aa12-8f3d-9fbe23f38e0c@aceshardware.com> <26325c0b-4960-7739-72aa-c31c4e0638d3@aceshardware.com> <20ad6ace-db43-7675-a6d3-813a71ac3a9a@aceshardware.com> In-Reply-To: <20ad6ace-db43-7675-a6d3-813a71ac3a9a@aceshardware.com> From: =?UTF-8?B?S2FtaWxhIFNvdcSNa292w6E=?= Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 00:18:38 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components To: Brian Neal Cc: Alan Somers , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: B47466AC56 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kamisouckova@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.176 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kamisouckova@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.56 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.994,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.992,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[ksp.sk]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.46)[-0.457,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[176.221.85.209.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(-1.10)[ipnet: 209.85.128.0/17(-3.76), asn: 15169(-1.67), country: US(-0.08)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[kamila@ksp.sk,kamisouckova@gmail.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[kamila@ksp.sk,kamisouckova@gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2019 01:13:38 -0000 I was hoping to avoid contributing to this flame war, but alas... I just want to remind the FreeBSD devs (you probably know, but I'm saying it anyway): a bunch of users who aren't contributing to this flame war do in fact appreciate how you think about options and consider what's best for FreeBSD. You have taken the effort to consider an idea that is currently not even an option, because it might (or might not) be interesting in the future, and you have done it publicly despite knowing that not everyone would be happy with it. It is useful for the community to know that such considerations exist, because this way we can have the motivation to experiment with rust (if we want to) and find out more about whether it's a good tradeoff. Whether things end up one way or another, I am sure that it will be a good thing for FreeBSD to have thought about this. I am happy to be using a system whose devs I can trust. Kamila From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mon Jan 7 12:12:38 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A26661490A43 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 12:12:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ot1-f49.google.com (mail-ot1-f49.google.com [209.85.210.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC52389553 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 12:12:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: by mail-ot1-f49.google.com with SMTP id f18so90996otl.11 for ; Mon, 07 Jan 2019 04:12:37 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=chKKXWUqHV4MU2SQk8RoQkHmwEUhiqZAp1w7AABxtZU=; b=AZ875yzx/Dj82wfe1hd/r7tfsHOjQP8rnprBcUG6CM5CtClYgfDhxVS48afF3PE1jM 5Wkjn6artMsO3cI6oA3M/TcJLVo7eqeZCB1Qmv0UVaTkoIy9iwkwEE6j99CmnLUcUiHw tOb7IiYDcDIl4l8nMEp7Qh/jpNPabSDHo+1XXWprMAqwQTw8ZJE299/5QXb8mm97ipoq 9nebq06VCb1QLneZzuXOUOPE7WAWCDV6+iZYij4l9590qH1IER/OGGZX/3gmoP7fRRmg snoTCaqGhFT5+0MojWnqnhYmPgvc430tA7yNgj6wnWM7yayWkMvQEH4P78BU6n3y3WkM 0MhQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukf4y4SwPx/nKVVXZM2KGSXVlK2MQQXVCBx5Da9VksaukWNmQ37j qj3zBJA6UsFKHv8DK9QyDuzQwsjOL93ZFgtGWl2dSVfw X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN7xwmoHf7KIGMTgomHP/cjnKgZwCMKu2nt7Xhg/UaVqTWwvu7ihhm7y+NXsBhSyWu4IJ6KfBgEE7uQtD1ztnug= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:2c46:: with SMTP id f64mr44614668otb.192.1546863151588; Mon, 07 Jan 2019 04:12:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6DF138FB-E730-477A-A992-8FE1944DDE94@exonetric.com> <451787DE-0659-4F7D-B011-904F90866DDB@gmail.com> <20190107120629.GU40894@e.0x20.net> In-Reply-To: <20190107120629.GU40894@e.0x20.net> From: Igor Mozolevsky Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 12:11:55 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components To: Lars Engels Cc: Wojciech Puchar , Hackers freeBSD , Pratyush Yadav Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: CC52389553 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mozolevsky@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.49 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mozolevsky@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.77 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.995,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[hybrid-lab.co.uk]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[49.210.85.209.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.66)[-0.662,0]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk,mozolevsky@gmail.com]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk,mozolevsky@gmail.com]; IP_SCORE(-1.11)[ipnet: 209.85.128.0/17(-3.78), asn: 15169(-1.67), country: US(-0.08)]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2019 12:12:38 -0000 On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 12:07, Lars Engels wrote: > Wojciech, we got it. FreeBSD is perfect for you. You do not care about > what other people need, think and want. It's okay for you when FreeBSD's > user base shrinks until you are its last user. > Can we other people now discuss how we can FreeBSD make relevant again? Out of curiosity, how do you see Rust making FreeBSD "relevant again"? -- Igor M. From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mon Jan 7 12:07:17 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AADDB1490723 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 12:07:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lars@e.0x20.net) Received: from mail.0x20.net (mail.0x20.net [46.251.251.56]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "0x20.net", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2FAB88912F for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 12:07:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lars@e.0x20.net) Received: from e.0x20.net (mail.0x20.net [46.251.251.56]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail.0x20.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 00618B321A; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 13:06:29 +0100 (CET) Received: (from lars@localhost) by e.0x20.net (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id x07C6Txu051448; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 13:06:29 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from lars) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 13:06:29 +0100 From: Lars Engels To: Wojciech Puchar Cc: Igor Mozolevsky , Hackers freeBSD , Pratyush Yadav Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components Message-ID: <20190107120629.GU40894@e.0x20.net> References: <6DF138FB-E730-477A-A992-8FE1944DDE94@exonetric.com> <451787DE-0659-4F7D-B011-904F90866DDB@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Editor: VIM - Vi IMproved 8.0 User-Agent: Mutt/1.11.1 (2018-12-01) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 2FAB88912F X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.69 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.56)[-0.560,0]; MX_INVALID(0.50)[cached]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.33)[0.332,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[0x20.net]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.40)[0.404,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[lars.engels@0x20.net,lars@e.0x20.net]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:31400, ipnet:46.251.251.0/24, country:DE]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[lars.engels@0x20.net,lars@e.0x20.net]; IP_SCORE(-0.19)[ip: (-1.51), ipnet: 46.251.251.0/24(-0.76), asn: 31400(1.35), country: DE(-0.01)]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 07 Jan 2019 12:25:30 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2019 12:07:17 -0000 On Sun, Jan 06, 2019 at 07:26:44PM +0100, Wojciech Puchar wrote: > >> from ineptitude IMHO, but from honest mistakes. Languages that make > >> your job easier by taking care of these common pitfalls are not so > >> bad. > > > > That's because you simply engage your hands before engaging your > > brain, and that's exactly what I meant by _d_i_s_c_i_p_l_i_n_e_! Write > > This is a "modern" programming where morons dominated. Common. Wojciech, we got it. FreeBSD is perfect for you. You do not care about what other people need, think and want. It's okay for you when FreeBSD's user base shrinks until you are its last user. Can we other people now discuss how we can FreeBSD make relevant again? Thank you. From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mon Jan 7 12:35:59 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B2A71491915 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 12:35:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lars@e.0x20.net) Received: from mail.0x20.net (mail.0x20.net [46.251.251.56]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "0x20.net", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 61B008A6FD for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 12:35:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lars@e.0x20.net) Received: from e.0x20.net (mail.0x20.net [46.251.251.56]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail.0x20.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B53AB494E; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 13:35:19 +0100 (CET) Received: (from lars@localhost) by e.0x20.net (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id x07CZJ1P088065; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 13:35:19 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from lars) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 13:35:19 +0100 From: Lars Engels To: Igor Mozolevsky Cc: Lars Engels , Wojciech Puchar , Hackers freeBSD , Pratyush Yadav Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components Message-ID: <20190107123519.GV40894@e.0x20.net> References: <451787DE-0659-4F7D-B011-904F90866DDB@gmail.com> <20190107120629.GU40894@e.0x20.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Editor: VIM - Vi IMproved 8.0 User-Agent: Mutt/1.11.1 (2018-12-01) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 61B008A6FD X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.77 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.56)[-0.562,0]; MX_INVALID(0.50)[cached]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.38)[0.376,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.43)[0.428,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[lme@freebsd.org,lars@e.0x20.net]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:31400, ipnet:46.251.251.0/24, country:DE]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[lme@freebsd.org,lars@e.0x20.net]; IP_SCORE(-0.18)[ip: (-1.47), ipnet: 46.251.251.0/24(-0.73), asn: 31400(1.33), country: DE(-0.01)]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2019 12:35:59 -0000 On Mon, Jan 07, 2019 at 12:11:55PM +0000, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 12:07, Lars Engels wrote: > > > Wojciech, we got it. FreeBSD is perfect for you. You do not care about > > what other people need, think and want. It's okay for you when FreeBSD's > > user base shrinks until you are its last user. > > Can we other people now discuss how we can FreeBSD make relevant again? > > > Out of curiosity, how do you see Rust making FreeBSD "relevant again"? My mail was not about adding Rust to base. I only picked up a random rant mail to reply to. There are other sub-threads where my reply would have been more appropriate, I think. From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mon Jan 7 12:43:07 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ED721491CB7 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 12:43:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ot1-f44.google.com (mail-ot1-f44.google.com [209.85.210.44]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 75BB78ACB7; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 12:43:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: by mail-ot1-f44.google.com with SMTP id w25so145865otm.13; Mon, 07 Jan 2019 04:43:06 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=o1SD9om7JSN3q1r80P8v+YVdZHROSN+TSvO4S2mQ0QM=; b=qvuBQ26cykpJ1jINEOsh4PBPZqXyo0CDPwV3smbZmOkjjJ6mFEYZHtrnpwyG9CfC97 rM2rKy4ThDNBxGrfK1RRcPedLzxOR8pnusfAUxRT02B0C+pTzzWJrKVfgDLbxEPGerGz uRqA29QH1HXwzWn6rZV5Sf7qYM8qBp5Rikv93igYJuyoIcObjcG3DDLiOUzXKiDj6P3h ghSEKl7s7lpva79mKZlFIOzdaPjN283ZY+hVJJG7c2cOjECxQDmsCCoeFaZSLAlwvXqM a4v7EtRc9vte+UIOh5hAYqb2tVhMrUlL3AduASNPHHWkXJqNPmIkAD9pvMtpgsek5/x1 XaxA== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukdhWT644dKv/j3+dG14VLu1l0Zf9yQw1pVrzf7LuzyM1SPBhyC2 6z4bqT09eBNYiAyuxeRgms6G3vrTQR+DDSmXTiqI9FLW X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN6Y+/qR7UxSGfkzxI1BVvN67dJrOa2f80Wn1aiOcqyRnFa+7NGLjboctGxEgJMVCYvLM7m3WDTq6HPj8VCIcjs= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:620f:: with SMTP id g15mr39937250otj.296.1546864980124; Mon, 07 Jan 2019 04:43:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <451787DE-0659-4F7D-B011-904F90866DDB@gmail.com> <20190107120629.GU40894@e.0x20.net> <20190107123519.GV40894@e.0x20.net> In-Reply-To: <20190107123519.GV40894@e.0x20.net> From: Igor Mozolevsky Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 12:42:24 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components To: Lars Engels Cc: Hackers freeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 75BB78ACB7 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mozolevsky@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.44 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mozolevsky@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.68 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.983,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[hybrid-lab.co.uk]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; IP_SCORE(-1.11)[ipnet: 209.85.128.0/17(-3.77), asn: 15169(-1.67), country: US(-0.08)]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[44.210.85.209.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.58)[-0.578,0]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk,mozolevsky@gmail.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk,mozolevsky@gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2019 12:43:07 -0000 On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 12:35, Lars Engels wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 07, 2019 at 12:11:55PM +0000, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > > On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 12:07, Lars Engels wrote: > > > > > Wojciech, we got it. FreeBSD is perfect for you. You do not care about > > > what other people need, think and want. It's okay for you when FreeBSD's > > > user base shrinks until you are its last user. > > > Can we other people now discuss how we can FreeBSD make relevant again? > > > > > > Out of curiosity, how do you see Rust making FreeBSD "relevant again"? > > My mail was not about adding Rust to base. I only picked up a random > rant mail to reply to. There are other sub-threads where my reply would > have been more appropriate, I think. Fair enough, as a user of FreeBSD, may I suggest a way to make FreeBSD "relevant again" is to start eliminating bugs that are show-stoppers for users and cause those users to switch to alternatives, instead of obsessing with toys-du-jour? -- Igor M. From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mon Jan 7 13:03:12 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2FDD1492443 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 13:03:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: from puchar.net (puchar.net [194.1.144.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "puchar.net", Issuer "puchar.net" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 799178BAB3; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 13:03:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: Received: from 127.0.0.1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x07D3C5I059925 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 7 Jan 2019 14:03:12 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) Received: from localhost (puchar-wojtek@localhost) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id x07D35fR059904; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 14:03:07 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 14:03:05 +0100 (CET) From: Wojciech Puchar To: =?ISO-8859-2?Q?Kamila_Sou=E8kov=E1?= cc: Brian Neal , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , Alan Somers Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <7d7bc47d-04cf-2f9b-00a3-e3d9d92b3623@aceshardware.com> <72922F2C-9D27-47AA-BB1C-2DA8589CF008@rpi.edu> <92bd5362-d898-aa12-8f3d-9fbe23f38e0c@aceshardware.com> <26325c0b-4960-7739-72aa-c31c4e0638d3@aceshardware.com> <20ad6ace-db43-7675-a6d3-813a71ac3a9a@aceshardware.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (BSF 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 799178BAB3 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wojtek@puchar.net designates 194.1.144.90 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=wojtek@puchar.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.79 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[puchar.net]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: puchar.net]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.91)[-0.910,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[90.144.1.194.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; IP_SCORE(-3.57)[ip: (-9.42), ipnet: 194.1.144.0/24(-4.71), asn: 43476(-3.77), country: PL(0.03)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:43476, ipnet:194.1.144.0/24, country:PL]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2019 13:03:13 -0000 > I just want to remind the FreeBSD devs (you probably know, but I'm saying > it anyway): a bunch of users who aren't contributing to this flame war do > in fact appreciate how you think about options and consider what's best for > FreeBSD. You have taken the effort to consider an idea that is currently If not from one side then from another side you want to enforce stupid ideas to FreeBSD. Simply stop this discussion about rust, java or whatever and start separate project if you like From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mon Jan 7 13:03:56 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13B1214924A4 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 13:03:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: from puchar.net (puchar.net [194.1.144.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "puchar.net", Issuer "puchar.net" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 50A6E8BB6C for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 13:03:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: Received: from 127.0.0.1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x07D43J4060442 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 7 Jan 2019 14:04:03 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) Received: from localhost (puchar-wojtek@localhost) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id x07D3wRm060439; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 14:03:58 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 14:03:58 +0100 (CET) From: Wojciech Puchar To: Lars Engels cc: Wojciech Puchar , Igor Mozolevsky , Hackers freeBSD , Pratyush Yadav Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components In-Reply-To: <20190107120629.GU40894@e.0x20.net> Message-ID: References: <6DF138FB-E730-477A-A992-8FE1944DDE94@exonetric.com> <451787DE-0659-4F7D-B011-904F90866DDB@gmail.com> <20190107120629.GU40894@e.0x20.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (BSF 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 50A6E8BB6C X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wojtek@puchar.net designates 194.1.144.90 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=wojtek@puchar.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.82 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[puchar.net]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: puchar.net]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.94)[-0.941,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[90.144.1.194.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; IP_SCORE(-3.58)[ip: (-9.42), ipnet: 194.1.144.0/24(-4.71), asn: 43476(-3.77), country: PL(0.03)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:43476, ipnet:194.1.144.0/24, country:PL]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2019 13:03:56 -0000 >> This is a "modern" programming where morons dominated. Common. > > Wojciech, we got it. FreeBSD is perfect for you. You do not care about > what other people need, think and want. It's okay for you when FreeBSD's > user base shrinks until you are its last user. Definitely not last. > Can we other people now discuss how we can FreeBSD make relevant again? revelant for what? For being just the same bloat as other are? So why care to make it at all? From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mon Jan 7 13:04:51 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45F051492548 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 13:04:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: from puchar.net (puchar.net [194.1.144.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "puchar.net", Issuer "puchar.net" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B4658BC9B for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 13:04:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: Received: from 127.0.0.1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x07D4vWY060729 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 7 Jan 2019 14:04:57 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) Received: from localhost (puchar-wojtek@localhost) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id x07D4qmU060726; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 14:04:52 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 14:04:52 +0100 (CET) From: Wojciech Puchar To: Igor Mozolevsky cc: Lars Engels , Wojciech Puchar , Hackers freeBSD , Pratyush Yadav Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <6DF138FB-E730-477A-A992-8FE1944DDE94@exonetric.com> <451787DE-0659-4F7D-B011-904F90866DDB@gmail.com> <20190107120629.GU40894@e.0x20.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (BSF 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 7B4658BC9B X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wojtek@puchar.net designates 194.1.144.90 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=wojtek@puchar.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.83 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[puchar.net]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: puchar.net]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.94)[-0.941,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[90.144.1.194.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; IP_SCORE(-3.58)[ip: (-9.43), ipnet: 194.1.144.0/24(-4.71), asn: 43476(-3.77), country: PL(0.03)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:43476, ipnet:194.1.144.0/24, country:PL]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2019 13:04:51 -0000 >> Can we other people now discuss how we can FreeBSD make relevant again? > > > Out of curiosity, how do you see Rust making FreeBSD "relevant again"? What i really think is that there are group of people that are actually paid trolls. From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mon Jan 7 13:05:10 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B89471492588 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 13:05:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: from puchar.net (puchar.net [194.1.144.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "puchar.net", Issuer "puchar.net" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 023368BCD7; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 13:05:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: Received: from 127.0.0.1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x07D5ITd060841 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 7 Jan 2019 14:05:18 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) Received: from localhost (puchar-wojtek@localhost) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id x07D5DR5060838; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 14:05:13 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 14:05:13 +0100 (CET) From: Wojciech Puchar To: Lars Engels cc: Igor Mozolevsky , Lars Engels , Wojciech Puchar , Hackers freeBSD , Pratyush Yadav Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components In-Reply-To: <20190107123519.GV40894@e.0x20.net> Message-ID: References: <451787DE-0659-4F7D-B011-904F90866DDB@gmail.com> <20190107120629.GU40894@e.0x20.net> <20190107123519.GV40894@e.0x20.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (BSF 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 023368BCD7 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wojtek@puchar.net designates 194.1.144.90 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=wojtek@puchar.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.79 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[puchar.net]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: puchar.net]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.91)[-0.908,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[90.144.1.194.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; IP_SCORE(-3.58)[ip: (-9.43), ipnet: 194.1.144.0/24(-4.71), asn: 43476(-3.77), country: PL(0.03)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:43476, ipnet:194.1.144.0/24, country:PL]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2019 13:05:10 -0000 >> >> Out of curiosity, how do you see Rust making FreeBSD "relevant again"? > > My mail was not about adding Rust to base. I only picked up a random Rust is in ports. Nothing more is needed for you From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mon Jan 7 14:06:15 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2936214940E6 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 14:06:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: from puchar.net (puchar.net [194.1.144.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "puchar.net", Issuer "puchar.net" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E40748E072; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 14:06:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: Received: from 127.0.0.1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x07E6HZH087182 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 7 Jan 2019 15:06:17 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) Received: from localhost (puchar-wojtek@localhost) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id x07E6COj087179; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 15:06:12 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 15:06:12 +0100 (CET) From: Wojciech Puchar To: Igor Mozolevsky cc: Lars Engels , Hackers freeBSD Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <451787DE-0659-4F7D-B011-904F90866DDB@gmail.com> <20190107120629.GU40894@e.0x20.net> <20190107123519.GV40894@e.0x20.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (BSF 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: E40748E072 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wojtek@puchar.net designates 194.1.144.90 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=wojtek@puchar.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.80 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.997,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[puchar.net]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[puchar.net]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.91)[-0.914,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[90.144.1.194.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; IP_SCORE(-3.58)[ip: (-9.43), ipnet: 194.1.144.0/24(-4.72), asn: 43476(-3.77), country: PL(0.03)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:43476, ipnet:194.1.144.0/24, country:PL]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2019 14:06:15 -0000 > > > Fair enough, as a user of FreeBSD, may I suggest a way to make FreeBSD > "relevant again" is to start eliminating bugs that are show-stoppers > for users and cause those users to switch to alternatives, instead of > obsessing with toys-du-jour? and even more important - stop introducing new bugs by adding this toys. From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mon Jan 7 17:04:27 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD33F1498FB0 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 17:04:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from njm@njm.me.uk) Received: from smtp001-out.apm-internet.net (smtp001-out.apm-internet.net [85.119.248.222]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 862E36E73E for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 17:04:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from njm@njm.me.uk) Received: (qmail 22022 invoked from network); 7 Jan 2019 16:57:43 -0000 X-APM-Authkey: 18389/1(18389/1) 3 Received: from unknown (HELO meld.njm.me.uk) (90.194.142.161) by smtp001.apm-internet.net with SMTP; 7 Jan 2019 16:57:43 -0000 Received: from triton.njm.me.uk (triton.njm.me.uk [192.168.144.133]) by meld.njm.me.uk (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id x07Gvfo8054512; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 16:57:41 GMT (envelope-from njm@njm.me.uk) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by triton.njm.me.uk (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id x07GvfPP092674; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 16:57:41 GMT (envelope-from njm@njm.me.uk) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2019 16:57:40 +0000 From: "N.J. Mann" To: Wojciech Puchar cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <7d7bc47d-04cf-2f9b-00a3-e3d9d92b3623@aceshardware.com> <72922F2C-9D27-47AA-BB1C-2DA8589CF008@rpi.edu> <92bd5362-d898-aa12-8f3d-9fbe23f38e0c@aceshardware.com> <26325c0b-4960-7739-72aa-c31c4e0638d3@aceshardware.com> <20ad6ace-db43-7675-a6d3-813a71ac3a9a@aceshardware.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 862E36E73E X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.73 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.14)[-0.144,0]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.70)[0.699,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[njm.me.uk]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[b.mx.fluent.ltd.uk,b.mx.fluent.ltd.uk,b.mx.fluent.ltd.uk,b.mx.fluent.ltd.uk,b.mx.fluent.ltd.uk]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.41)[0.407,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[222.248.119.85.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.3.1]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:35259, ipnet:85.119.248.0/21, country:GB]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-0.02)[country: GB(-0.10)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2019 17:04:28 -0000 On Monday, January 07, 2019 14:03:05 +0100 Wojciech Puchar wrote: >> I just want to remind the FreeBSD devs (you probably know, but I'm saying >> it anyway): a bunch of users who aren't contributing to this flame war do >> in fact appreciate how you think about options and consider what's best for >> FreeBSD. You have taken the effort to consider an idea that is currently > > If not from one side then from another side you want to enforce stupid ideas to > FreeBSD. Simply stop this discussion about rust, java or whatever and start > separate project if you like If you are so against change why don't you fork FreeBSD? That way YOU can decide exactly what goes into WP-BSD and what does not! There has been some great information exchanged in this thread and I have enjoyed the thought provoking discussion. I have been using the C language for 40 years. Perhaps it is time I looked at something more modern, not to replace it, to complement it. Cheers, Nick. -- From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mon Jan 7 20:51:03 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7BD6149F0BA for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 20:51:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from binbash.foxy@outlook.com) Received: from EUR03-AM5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-am5eur03olkn0818.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fe08::818]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.protection.outlook.com", Issuer "GlobalSign Organization Validation CA - SHA256 - G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 910848052D for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 20:51:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from binbash.foxy@outlook.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outlook.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; 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Mon, 7 Jan 2019 20:50:54 +0000 From: Arnoldas Skinderis To: "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components Thread-Topic: Speculative: Rust for base system components Thread-Index: AQHUoslQlz20Pt2ktkm9e0+97/xd+qWdf0EAgAA8OgCAAALKgIAAPwcAgAAByACAAxGNAIAABzKAgAEMyoCAABeggIAADlv6gABKlQCAASpTI4AABdOAgAAB+gCAABdqAIAAcRAA Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 20:50:54 +0000 Message-ID: References: <451787DE-0659-4F7D-B011-904F90866DDB@gmail.com> <20190107120629.GU40894@e.0x20.net> <20190107123519.GV40894@e.0x20.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, lt-LT Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-clientproxiedby: AM5PR0202CA0017.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:203:69::27) To VI1PR08MB0896.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:5a05::30) x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:1AB71801C9A89B47C3B0213068354282D0DDF7952B6F3C95A08E243C0E8CE41C; UpperCasedChecksum:DDDDD02C4C200F59DA6F75E62724C2F8480E05FD6D530E7EF3740EE9F8F17FCC; SizeAsReceived:9453; 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RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.97)[-0.967,0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(-2.55)[ip: (-8.80), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-2.21), asn: 15169(-1.68), country: US(-0.08)]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2019 00:11:21 -0000 Hi Brian, On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 4:50 PM Brian Neal wrote: > > Sure! > > Just go to http://godbolt.org/ and type a small program in each language,= enter the appropriate compilation flags and compare the output. The functi= on I used took a count as a parameter, iterated through the count, summed u= p odd numbers and returned the sum. I did the test with what I understood must had been the code you used, but my results are different. See [1]. > >> It was a debug build with no optimization for either compiler. But we > >> can easily run a variety of settings for comparison: Debug builds show also panic and overflow checks for Rust sources, which explains the difference in instruction count. > >> > >> Compiler Flags Inst. Count Build Time > >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >> clang 7.0.0 none 33 296ms > >> -O3 23 341ms > >> rustc 1.31.0 none 110 606ms > >> -C opt-level=3D3 67 643ms > >> gcc 8.2 none 37 211ms > >> -O2 24 249ms > >> -O3 119* 206ms > >> > >> * With -O3, gcc unrolled and vectorized the loop. The other compilers > >> did not emit vectorized code at any of the standard optimization level= s. I did not see this. Actually I had to force Rust with extra flags to stop it from emitting such code. In fact, both Rust and clang generate the exact same code for the equivalent function. > >> So, essentially, double the build time and ~3 times the code for the > >> same logic. This is not true in the tests I did wrt instruction count. The compiler is certainly slower, although not sure it is 2x slower than clang. In fact, as you can see, there's one implementation in Rust that beats the C code in inst count for both gcc and clang. That said, instruction count is hardly a good metric, especially with relatively recent CPUs. My 2c: these tests focus on a very narrow set of properties and cases that IMO should not be the basis for considering a language. [1] https://godbolt.org/z/hqi_VX. Cheers, Alex From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Tue Jan 8 22:18:36 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8349148D268 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2019 22:18:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: from puchar.net (puchar.net [194.1.144.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "puchar.net", Issuer "puchar.net" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7BC91829D8 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2019 22:18:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: Received: from 127.0.0.1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x08MIbTP016614 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 8 Jan 2019 23:18:37 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) Received: from localhost (puchar-wojtek@localhost) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id x08MIWWv016611; Tue, 8 Jan 2019 23:18:32 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 23:18:32 +0100 (CET) From: Wojciech Puchar To: "N.J. Mann" cc: Wojciech Puchar , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <7d7bc47d-04cf-2f9b-00a3-e3d9d92b3623@aceshardware.com> <72922F2C-9D27-47AA-BB1C-2DA8589CF008@rpi.edu> <92bd5362-d898-aa12-8f3d-9fbe23f38e0c@aceshardware.com> <26325c0b-4960-7739-72aa-c31c4e0638d3@aceshardware.com> <20ad6ace-db43-7675-a6d3-813a71ac3a9a@aceshardware.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (BSF 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 7BC91829D8 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wojtek@puchar.net designates 194.1.144.90 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=wojtek@puchar.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.71 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[puchar.net]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[puchar.net]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.82)[-0.820,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[90.144.1.194.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; IP_SCORE(-3.58)[ip: (-9.44), ipnet: 194.1.144.0/24(-4.72), asn: 43476(-3.77), country: PL(0.03)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:43476, ipnet:194.1.144.0/24, country:PL]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2019 22:18:37 -0000 > > If you are so against change why don't you fork FreeBSD? That way YOU can > decide exactly what goes into WP-BSD and what does not! already do it to some extent > > > > There has been some great information exchanged in this thread and I have > enjoyed the thought provoking discussion. I have been using the C language > for 40 years. Perhaps it is time I looked at something more modern, not to > replace it, to complement it. > > > Cheers, > Nick. > -- > > From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Tue Jan 8 22:26:13 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A49B3148D5EA for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2019 22:26:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: from puchar.net (puchar.net [194.1.144.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "puchar.net", Issuer "puchar.net" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 902CC83E0E for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2019 22:25:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@puchar.net) Received: Received: from 127.0.0.1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x08MPWbH017674 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 8 Jan 2019 23:25:32 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) Received: from localhost (puchar-wojtek@localhost) by puchar.net (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id x08MPRh8017671; Tue, 8 Jan 2019 23:25:27 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from puchar-wojtek@puchar.net) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 23:25:26 +0100 (CET) From: Wojciech Puchar To: Arnoldas Skinderis cc: "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <451787DE-0659-4F7D-B011-904F90866DDB@gmail.com> <20190107120629.GU40894@e.0x20.net> <20190107123519.GV40894@e.0x20.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (BSF 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 902CC83E0E X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wojtek@puchar.net designates 194.1.144.90 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=wojtek@puchar.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.66 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[puchar.net]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: puchar.net]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[90.144.1.194.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.77)[-0.768,0]; IP_SCORE(-3.58)[ip: (-9.44), ipnet: 194.1.144.0/24(-4.72), asn: 43476(-3.78), country: PL(0.03)]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[outlook.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:43476, ipnet:194.1.144.0/24, country:PL]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2019 22:26:13 -0000 >> >> and even more important - stop introducing new bugs by adding this toys. > > Hello. I am testing FreeBSD instances with long term view exactly > because of "toys" in linux. for those who think FreeBSD should be more like linux (or whatever). Take linux for example. 15-20 years ago or so there was great pressure on linux to be windows competition. X11 which was already quite bloated to start with (but anyway working and quite logic) was the base on which "desktop environment" started to be created. Then X11/Xorg itself got "improved" which resulted in nonsense. Now for example X over network is almost unusable because instead of X server doing things - lots of libraries took it's job putting whole bitmaps as a result. What is final result - those who want windows like product choose... windows. Which is logical. Linux penetration on "desktop" market is zero+small measurement error. Linux is only popular in server environment. Why not FreeBSD? Because linux got more marketing. If FreeBSD will go being "more like linux" then people will get away from it. Those who want to have system "more like linux" already uses linux. Those who not will stop using FreeBSD. Same was some years ago with NetBSD. And what will remain? DragonflyBSD? For how long. We will see. Sad smart people here cannot understand basic logic, and get overhelmed with common marketing. From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Thu Jan 10 13:15:51 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 441DB148AF65 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2019 13:15:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from eric@metricspace.net) Received: from mail.metricspace.net (mail.metricspace.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f11:617::107]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C748983630 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2019 13:15:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from eric@metricspace.net) Received: from [172.16.0.58] (unknown [172.16.0.58]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: eric) by mail.metricspace.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 876B5390E for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2019 13:15:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <201901021829.x02IT4Kc064169@slippy.cwsent.com> <361CCB81-AEB6-4EAC-9604-CD8F4C63948C@gmail.com> From: Eric McCorkle Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=eric@metricspace.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mDMEWue2FBYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAP/qVPlXodV6pYO5b1Jw0eFyMhyDD7B5y5eFsciutEfS0 JEVyaWMgTWNDb3JrbGUgPGVyaWNAbWV0cmljc3BhY2UubmV0PoiWBBMWCAA+FiEEDxi/0rkj zd6Uc6cFCN/CKRbBwmwFAlrnthQCGwMFCQHhM4AFCwkIBwIGFQoJCAsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AA CgkQCN/CKRbBwmyGKAD/XTSBOItCKcYCPTlsaS1aQYVEwWXXFgdjWE+WsNdZUS8A/AhYAbQZ kNZNimE2rQLoklkfTA74qF/V257NuQi4QDcLuDgEWue2FBIKKwYBBAGXVQEFAQEHQKpZVyCG ync/xqejm2C1HKGXLJTUu38RvnrR3UYECz9nAwEIB4h+BBgWCAAmFiEEDxi/0rkjzd6Uc6cF CN/CKRbBwmwFAlrnthQCGwwFCQHhM4AACgkQCN/CKRbBwmyi2wEAmvaGt8QMjGELzm27gP4c jJGUi7oigsLmTiFPkpJqPz0A+QFBSCvxJaxCMyoVru/xB6bunpJ+Wtsj8HD1EuJOn4EJ Message-ID: Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 08:15:41 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <361CCB81-AEB6-4EAC-9604-CD8F4C63948C@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Oih89Xdy1Za0H3JlUDPJoHSKZ9GyriwwE" X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 13:15:51 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --Oih89Xdy1Za0H3JlUDPJoHSKZ9GyriwwE Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="bHARvenGWW8mgM6cR1dgWpBodPAcvrH73"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eric McCorkle To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components References: <201901021829.x02IT4Kc064169@slippy.cwsent.com> <361CCB81-AEB6-4EAC-9604-CD8F4C63948C@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <361CCB81-AEB6-4EAC-9604-CD8F4C63948C@gmail.com> --bHARvenGWW8mgM6cR1dgWpBodPAcvrH73 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/3/19 11:22 AM, Enji Cooper wrote: > Going back to my previous statement, I think writing a service monitor = (to work alongside init and rc) in modern C++/rust would be a good item t= o undertake. >=20 > I=E2=80=99d be willing to do this with someone else, as a research proj= ect/to demo how rust could be used. >=20 > Given prior comments about rust binary sizes and the fact that the defa= ult linking option is mostly static, a =E2=80=9Cmission critical binary=E2= =80=9D like this (or rescue?) would be a good candidate for rust. >=20 Circling back a bit late (I'm swamped right now) to make one final follow-up... I think it would be a useful exercise to try and get a minimal rust-based UEFI boot loader up and going. When I have some more free time (hopefully soon), I might take a swing at it. --bHARvenGWW8mgM6cR1dgWpBodPAcvrH73-- --Oih89Xdy1Za0H3JlUDPJoHSKZ9GyriwwE Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEARYIAB0WIQQPGL/SuSPN3pRzpwUI38IpFsHCbAUCXDdFfgAKCRAI38IpFsHC bDF7AQDpppzCC/aG6IrxmdIfLU8DMxLfvESMT2oJVVlMTpJaaAEA0irpo9lhAmua f5ZbdopdV8P7sIIt+LwYE8PN/yfxMQs= =r9fl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Oih89Xdy1Za0H3JlUDPJoHSKZ9GyriwwE-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Thu Jan 10 13:46:26 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27072148C172 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2019 13:46:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ot1-f51.google.com (mail-ot1-f51.google.com [209.85.210.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B645F84799 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2019 13:46:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mozolevsky@gmail.com) Received: by mail-ot1-f51.google.com with SMTP id u16so9942460otk.8 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2019 05:46:25 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=RjjvTbBu2FTPkjKDxPDF3ZlT2/gJBmNIPDQvjc3BCt4=; b=U5CQX90OYgL4x6NkqgO/70dqQpFlD6BMYL2hHniwjRL0K8yDm2YX/30PEBKaiMv70b g2QvntBbTn2wYV1PZxC9QXK1gHbc8F9s4TFR/cMIiQ7qU/9qiB7CeLu20DDSY3+S1CTf WB0xp2qaz0/6WigDvOvYJxRb2+TjYDoA/358I2Dm4MzX+JaxBms1WCShOqlHN+BUca0h TJZH7zjHsuOGCBruQ0suXtRIDqtH9BDWRVB7wjzf0Dm6KCiyPaaF1O6MLPkF7tULNkGD sa9D42OfoAGIjkO+CK+c3DtKyHwN99oCBXoVm1L16sICZ12DH+4GrKWsXI2TZOMUXK6Q Pytw== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukcxHpz+tS5F5PqN150dygVhLR8bJfzn8kJ53Ntwa/XCRAYSmBeY Nedxkmsp5tgIqL4k3UZ4yuoKlEqehRD4PG+S6SwljA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN7ha5+S/9GEh5TMxq4VzpSApmdD15w/pmTUfmIK+pKr1YKeZPZ2IxDe+bQpi/LCuyDo2ZOMCPg/9N0ezfv1Rdc= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:5f06:: with SMTP id f6mr7168164oti.258.1547127978804; Thu, 10 Jan 2019 05:46:18 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <201901021829.x02IT4Kc064169@slippy.cwsent.com> <361CCB81-AEB6-4EAC-9604-CD8F4C63948C@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Igor Mozolevsky Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 13:45:42 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components To: Eric McCorkle Cc: Hackers freeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: B645F84799 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.94 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.94)[-0.937,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 13:46:26 -0000 On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 at 13:19, Eric McCorkle wrote: > Circling back a bit late (I'm swamped right now) to make one final > follow-up... > > I think it would be a useful exercise to try and get a minimal > rust-based UEFI boot loader up and going. When I have some more free > time (hopefully soon), I might take a swing at it. > So if (and we all know where this is headed!) that were to make it into the distribution, how many compilers would one need to compile to actually compile a FreeBSD distro by then?.. -- Igor M.