From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Aug 4 00:14:02 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D4A9BF70B for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2019 00:14:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lee@adminart.net) Received: from mo6-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de (mo6-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de [IPv6:2a01:238:20a:202:5300::4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "*.smtp.rzone.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 461Lwm2b0Vz3P73 for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2019 00:13:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lee@adminart.net) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1564877637; s=strato-dkim-0002; d=adminart.net; h=References:Message-ID:Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From: X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH:From:Subject:Sender; bh=hv/JF4r4VpC/o0uO5UzgCClx5YYB93GT9wSp9Lf18vM=; b=GGi/+AWFNo8vtt5bLAvcFWJjHXPSjTnFtqULjwXU6QZ+1vwarCIllhaXs39BfFlPHk fCeFwPiwTRyuBJtDYp7PiatJ6ZYjy06RdzGhk0wwL7bKZxJ3HuszGH31CS7V9jyk4X4P O7aDoTdU3H31uHedldMQn9yfoRRHW7l4cujZ/Fxp3NqQmY+g0lQmHkAHBcUMSbGOVXWS fJ53MSMYYDTXKh6xz00ytQ2ih9wqOCk74TVB6Sc1jyRXT5u0RpmlS76KWmMQfm3dWOPi xuWrn7wWF/YI5kp0F6CcltoDT71Wv1/44176KAlazXhBUc6CYfdfAcbpkmY1yqgxDndA LaDQ== X-RZG-AUTH: ":O2kGeEG7b/pS1FS4THaxjVF9w0vVgfQ9xGcjwO5WMRo5c+h5ceMqQWZ3yrBp+ARdaXvxIDf7nlw=" X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Received: from himinbjorg.adminart.net by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 44.24 DYNA|AUTH) with ESMTPSA id e0059dv740Duaiu (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (curve secp521r1 with 521 ECDH bits, eq. 15360 bits RSA)) (Client did not present a certificate); Sun, 4 Aug 2019 02:13:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from toy.adminart.net ([192.168.3.55]) by himinbjorg.adminart.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hu49q-0001C0-Rb; Sun, 04 Aug 2019 02:13:54 +0200 Received: from lee by toy.adminart.net with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hu49q-0001IH-Pn; Sun, 04 Aug 2019 02:13:54 +0200 From: hw To: Polytropon Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: thunderbird in German? In-Reply-To: <20190803042205.550f5903.freebsd@edvax.de> (Polytropon's message of "Sat, 3 Aug 2019 04:22:05 +0200") Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2019 02:07:00 +0200 Organization: my virtual residence Message-ID: <87pnllbxp7.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <87o91bw4mx.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190731012754.3783a859.freebsd@edvax.de> <878ssc5v3x.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190802053434.6babd0d0.freebsd@edvax.de> <87y30b8h0v.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190803042205.550f5903.freebsd@edvax.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 461Lwm2b0Vz3P73 X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=adminart.net header.s=strato-dkim-0002 header.b=GGi/+AWF; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of lee@adminart.net has no SPF policy when checking 2a01:238:20a:202:5300::4) smtp.mailfrom=lee@adminart.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.83 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[adminart.net:s=strato-dkim-0002]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[adminart.net]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[adminart.net:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.984,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[hw@adminart.net,lee@adminart.net]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[4.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.3.5.2.0.2.0.a.0.2.0.8.3.2.0.1.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6724, ipnet:2a01:238::/32, country:DE]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[hw@adminart.net,lee@adminart.net]; IP_SCORE(-0.74)[ipnet: 2a01:238::/32(-3.24), asn: 6724(-0.45), country: DE(-0.01)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2019 00:14:02 -0000 Polytropon writes: > On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 22:10:56 +0200, hw wrote: >> Polytropon writes: >> >> > On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 01:22:42 +0200, hw wrote: >> >> Polytropon writes: >> >> >> >> > [...] >> > >> > If I remember correctly, $LANG has precedence over $LC_* if set. >> > However, I'm not sure every program conforms to this rule... and >> > I'm questioning Mozilla software following established rules and >> > consensus. ;-) >> >> Right, the programmers seem to be stupd kids who can't do anything but >> play with dumbphones. > > My impression is that programmers often don't care. They do whatever they want. At the same time, they keep asking for help which they never want. > While it has been good practice for decades to use -Wall and its > equivalents, it doesn't seem to be important anymore. Compile time > errors and warnings are irrelevant just as runtime warnings and > errors. My impression is that software is now generally much more stable than it used to be. I don't know why, perhaps better tools became available. > You can easily verify this by launching any "modern" Gtk or Qt program > from a terminal, say, Firefox, Gimp, and so on. You mean the messages they're printing and nobody knows what they are about? I have written a small program in perl that uses Gtk and it prints a message when I quit it. There is no reason for it to do that, so what should I do: (in cleanup) (in cleanup) at /usr/local/lib/perl/Database.pm line 163 during global destruction. Line 163 disconnects from the database, using the disconnect method of DBI. There is no such message in programs without Gtk, doing the same thing, using the same source. It seems such messages show up for no reason. > I also see this attitude applies to documentation, which is scattered > across the web, in wikis, user pages, discussion forums, outdated > project pages and so on. Even program sets intended for professional > use such as The SleuthKit have moved their documentation online, which > makes it inaccessible (!) in certain circumstances, especially > security-related ones where you are not permitted to connect to > outside (online) resources. In such a situation, "man mencoder" was > really helpful (I had to deal with those special circumstances for a > few times, it's not pretty). right > Churning out new versions and new features often seems to be > more important that fixing bugs or working against bad decisions. > Doing it right for everyone is impossible, I know, but a certain > amount of "good old common sense" should be applied more. :-) These kids don't have that. How could they? >> Be careful or we will be called trolls. Nowadays, you just /have/ to >> click on all the like buttons regardless how much something sucks; >> otherwise you're a troll. > > I will remember that, so people don't start feeding me. ;-) don't feed the like buttons The ones who do are the real trolls. >> > Because it's left to the users to find out how to do "nonstandard" >> > things like intending to change the interface language. Because >> > all the world only the English always! ;-) >> >> and right handed, of course > > Remember that traditional X (and X applications using the XMotif > and Xaw / Xaw3d toolkits, if I remember correctly) provides a > "/ shaped" mouse pointer (instead of the traditional \ one), and > it can be enabled with "xsetroot -cursor_name right_ptr". However, > some programs use their own mouse pointer, and it will change > as soon as you point into such a window... That's the same stupid idea as is behind programs insisting on doing the job of the window manager by drawing their own decorations. >> But when you use the trackball with your left hand, [...] > > That's entirely wrong. You don't use a trackball because it > does not exist. Everyone uses a mouse (old people) or taps on > the screen (young people). ;-) Dunno, I've already been way ahead of those tiny tap-screens 35 years ago when I used an old black-and-white TV as a display for my computer. I could see everything on it, and I could even program the computer which made it rather useful, and, imagine that, without being spied upon and without being controlled by anyone else. So I don't understand how anyone can put up with the useless crap you have to tap on while you can't see anything and achieve nothing. >> [...] you suddenly notice >> how wrong all the GUIs are designed. The old X programs can have the >> scroll bar on the left no problem, but all the new stuff is so great >> because it's immature and you have to click the like buttons nonetheless >> (even if you can't reach them because they're at odd locations). > > This is called "to explore". ;-) Hallowed are the like buttons! Who presses the greatest number of them will be rewarded with the most friends of them all! >> >> >> Is this a general problem >> >> >> with the language pack or something specific to FreeBSD? >> >> > >> >> > Not FreeBSD-specific. It's one of the typical problems of >> >> > "constant change" when dealing with Mozilla software... :-/ >> >> >> >> Is there a usable alternative to Thunderbird for an IMAP client? >> > >> > Yes, Sylpheed is a lightweight and still very convenient and >> > usable MUA. It supports IMAP (as well as SMTP and POP3, which >> > is so obvious that I don't need to mention it). >> >> Hm. I'll try that out, thanks. If that is in German, the users can >> decide what causes them more confusion: the same program they're used to >> in English but German or a new program they've never used, but in German. > > Sylpheed is in any language you want (English and German verified), > depending on what $LC_* says. I tried it yesterday, and it has come a long way. I think the last time I tried it, it was called slightly different with claws, and it crashed all the time. It starts like 10 times faster than Thunderbird and even lets me use emacs. Writing any email that is more than two sentences with Thunderbird or seamonkey is always a pain because their built-in editor sucks so badly and they force you to use it. But I haven't figured out how to make it so that libreoffice instead of gedit is the default program to open spreadsheets attached to emails. Gedit somehow doesn't work for that by not showing up at all. It could at least display the apparent garbage. Now sylpheed has lost the claws but gedit is too smart for me. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Aug 4 00:14:02 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44A87BF70F for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2019 00:14:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lee@adminart.net) Received: from mo6-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de (mo6-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de [IPv6:2a01:238:20a:202:5300::5]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "*.smtp.rzone.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 461Lwm213pz3P71 for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2019 00:13:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lee@adminart.net) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1564877637; s=strato-dkim-0002; d=adminart.net; h=References:Message-ID:Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From: X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH:From:Subject:Sender; bh=AbfAZFqfCabH7gK/1DuRs1TikTUkQAiVioC36Edi2l0=; b=HgFe5FdMHiODOq7imLSmoVxG9SPxSfVzT3XKFwrQVxL4AwznyPYLK7m7Cdi8gaBJG2 4n27NFnuLeffr4cT3GK27/WQ64tDmMBhQ4ijiAD05pB6vnx6qbyFAEL7bZMGf6+y/7K8 IyVG7KRzvCICOMG+citG9Q6K70lY57ysYURMVuQ034BBJ3x31RzGzf8ukWZtCkzqdyRT HfYFIlhGRMCZqCxTiE/K+Bgr9+j+9NqTdzx7o6flINWDx9nqz1/kcE0v4gqhErao/QXC 4KYpuxnHZaJM2ZGhSnjzdJH2nCuQHiGP7vPKTCvUdjCy4RiJ+HHaFCds57AMj6x9tlDn 4Asw== X-RZG-AUTH: ":O2kGeEG7b/pS1FS4THaxjVF9w0vVgfQ9xGcjwO5WMRo5c+h5ceMqQWZ3yrBp+ARdaXvxIDf7nlw=" X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Received: from himinbjorg.adminart.net by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 44.24 DYNA|AUTH) with ESMTPSA id e0059dv740Duaiv (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (curve secp521r1 with 521 ECDH bits, eq. 15360 bits RSA)) (Client did not present a certificate); Sun, 4 Aug 2019 02:13:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from toy.adminart.net ([192.168.3.55]) by himinbjorg.adminart.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hu49q-0001Bv-OC; Sun, 04 Aug 2019 02:13:54 +0200 Received: from lee by toy.adminart.net with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hu49q-0001IC-C0; Sun, 04 Aug 2019 02:13:54 +0200 From: hw To: Polytropon Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: thunderbird in German? In-Reply-To: <20190803040009.291039df.freebsd@edvax.de> (Polytropon's message of "Sat, 3 Aug 2019 04:00:09 +0200") Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2019 23:42:19 +0200 Organization: my virtual residence Message-ID: <87y30aaptw.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <87o91bw4mx.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190731012754.3783a859.freebsd@edvax.de> <23873.2939.410268.920612@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <20190731225154.82dcb0ae.freebsd@edvax.de> <87h8705waf.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190802050200.dd286e57.freebsd@edvax.de> <877e7v9wts.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190803040009.291039df.freebsd@edvax.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 461Lwm213pz3P71 X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=adminart.net header.s=strato-dkim-0002 header.b=HgFe5FdM; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of lee@adminart.net has no SPF policy when checking 2a01:238:20a:202:5300::5) smtp.mailfrom=lee@adminart.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.82 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[adminart.net:s=strato-dkim-0002]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[adminart.net]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[adminart.net:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.984,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[hw@adminart.net,lee@adminart.net]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[5.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.3.5.2.0.2.0.a.0.2.0.8.3.2.0.1.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6724, ipnet:2a01:238::/32, country:DE]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[hw@adminart.net,lee@adminart.net]; IP_SCORE(-0.74)[ipnet: 2a01:238::/32(-3.24), asn: 6724(-0.45), country: DE(-0.01)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2019 00:14:02 -0000 Polytropon writes: > On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 21:44:15 +0200, hw wrote: >> Polytropon writes: >>=20 >> > On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 00:57:12 +0200, hw wrote: >> >> Polytropon writes: >>=20 >> > [...] >> >> Changing Firefox wasn't a problem, other than that I wish I could do >> >> that site-wide for all users rather than having to do it for each use= r. >> >> Why don't these programs just honor the language settings of the >> >> environment? >> > >> > Yes, that is really a problem, because so many other programs do >> > it the right way; even temporary invocation in a different language >> > is not a problem for "old" programs. For example, if you set a >> > system-wide variable that applies to all users, that language >> > variable should be honored. I see multi-language support as a >> > great feature especially in FreeBSD, where I can use programs >> > in the language I prefer, and that might be vary among the >> > programs running in one session (for example, Sylpheed uses the >> > english language, while LibreOffice uses the german one). >>=20 >> Libreoffice seems to be bad as well because you have to go into the >> settings and change it before you get the language you have already set. > > I don't remember that I did something like that. Maybe because > I installed "de-libreoffice" explicitely? I had to do it on a Fedora installation. I thought the de-Package wasn't installed, but it was, and I had to change the preferences. >> I usually don't notice whether it's English or German, but the users >> will freak out as if it would make a difference (which it doesn't >> because they don't know what they're doing anyway). > > Same here. I prefer the english interface language because the > german translation often is incomplete (english menu items among > german ones) or wrong or missing (especially regarding error > messages). right I think part of the problem is that Germany has almost entirely missed out on this technology, hence there is neither any frame of mind that could lead to good translations, nor are there words available that would be required. If there was a suitable frame of mind, there would probably be words, though it might be difficult to find a frame of mind without the suitable words. It took years before I finally figured out that "allgemeine Schutzverletzung" is supposed to mean "segmentation fault". I wouldn't even call that a translation; it only shows that whoever came up with it had no clue what they were translating. Segmentation fault makes perfect sense in English and none whatsoever in German because there is no frame of mind with which anyone could understand what it means. I'd call it "Arbeitsspeicherbereichstrennungs=C3=BCberschreitung", and noone would understand that, either. > The only programs I really _want_ to be in German are LibreOffice and > Firefox (for reference). So are they any different or is it just to see how bad the translation is? >> This kinda reminds me of Gnome with which it is impossible to even add a >> program starter. > > Oh, don't get me started with my hate-journey across Gnome. While > Gnome first was superior to KDE language-wise, it later became > more and more complicated: Not reading .xinitrc or .xsession, so > forcing you to manually add "autostart programs", and mount/umount > (and eject for optical units) didn't work at all, even though I > followed the existing documentation, but finally I had to hack > the umount binary (!)... And GDM's inability to launch anything > than a Gnome session, and then came Gnome 3 which was so unusable > that I switched the systems that ran Gnome for many years to Mate. > That's the end of my personal Gnome story. :-) I could never bring myself to actually use it. I seriously wanted to try not long ago and had to give up when I found that I can't configure some windows to have no decorations and others to be sticky and on top. Even the most simple stuff is impossible with Gnome. >> It's already entirely useless because it doesn't even >> have a usable window manager, but who would expect that you can't do >> something basic like adding a start button or a menu entry. I had to >> switch a machine ever to KDE because of that. > > Would you say KDE is usable again for "german novice users"? > I haven't tried KDE for some time because of bloat... I know someone who's using it after I switched to KDE from Gnome because he needed a couple program starters. So far, he seems to be ok with it. I haven't tried KDE in a very long time. I used it for a while and gave up because of too many bugs. I've never had any use for these so-called "desktop environments", and I don't understand what the point of those is. They seem to try to force you to do stuff in some more or less weird way someone apparently figured should be the way to do things --- but it isn't, and they're just getting in the way. That's probably how you can not add program starters to Gnome: Someone must have figured that you must not start programs of your choosing with the required parameters, hence you can't. Perhaps the next version doesn't have a terminal because nobody needs one and it's way too complicated anyway. At least if you manage to set up your keyboard right, you can still switch to the console until they remove that possibility, too. Can you even switch when using wayland? And how would you X11-forward something to a wayland session through ssh, should wayland ever work with NVIDIA cards? >> There's just nothing better than fvwm ... > > On my laptop I'm using IceWM (with "metal2" style which finally > includes a BSD start button, but at the top, where it belongs to) > again, combined with wbar and a Mac background image for a "good > look". ;-) > > On my home system, I found nothing better than a highly customized > WIndowMaker with xdm. Fvwm manages windows. All the other window managers I've tried force you to manage the windows yourself. How are IceWM and Windowmaker in that regard? From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Aug 4 00:14:02 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D227BF70A for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2019 00:14:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lee@adminart.net) Received: from mo6-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de (mo6-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de [IPv6:2a01:238:20a:202:5300::7]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "*.smtp.rzone.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 461Lwm250Gz3P72 for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2019 00:13:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lee@adminart.net) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1564877637; s=strato-dkim-0002; d=adminart.net; h=References:Message-ID:Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From: X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH:From:Subject:Sender; bh=bcwzkYVvTk8rew+XplpOhaat7HUa2QKbWTTas02vpaU=; b=d57SaOsYFs+eY05hOfw1Ds1D4fbqMZYhf6oU2rQ948SPVcBX8Wd7y+DlhdWyjrDKi8 pR0gCzovi4eOMtFPNMdTdmL8EJzp7iMzexj19T6Y2blWE3BlxApk6rb4FCdzLRFlLRF9 M3HFoERgk1e2iDeNaRPjjyTSUmBApOzT5Fy5oXngI72u1nX2LmPBH8JyPMBhJh17Vwoj CyZKjtpKujPEO1/gSIqd4S7bqfRznZfx5RxHqksEj/MtlDnM1eWeT2e/uWqeNY4459Q7 Clbh3G2hClGXMNrzKI5imzIgHZwitMjzOWIa0L+CM1yoTiDxvJ2FkGKOSBLDpvt9ARhj iInA== X-RZG-AUTH: ":O2kGeEG7b/pS1FS4THaxjVF9w0vVgfQ9xGcjwO5WMRo5c+h5ceMqQWZ3yrBp+ARdaXvxIDf7nlw=" X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Received: from himinbjorg.adminart.net by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 44.24 DYNA|AUTH) with ESMTPSA id e0059dv740Duait (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (curve secp521r1 with 521 ECDH bits, eq. 15360 bits RSA)) (Client did not present a certificate); Sun, 4 Aug 2019 02:13:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from toy.adminart.net ([192.168.3.55]) by himinbjorg.adminart.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hu49q-0001C4-Ti; Sun, 04 Aug 2019 02:13:54 +0200 Received: from lee by toy.adminart.net with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hu49q-0001IM-S2; Sun, 04 Aug 2019 02:13:54 +0200 From: hw To: Steve O'Hara-Smith Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: thunderbird in German? In-Reply-To: <20190802213025.884985d57dbfd7bf20ae4cd5@sohara.org> (Steve O'Hara-Smith's message of "Fri, 2 Aug 2019 21:30:25 +0100") Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2019 02:13:32 +0200 Organization: my virtual residence Message-ID: <87lfw9bxeb.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <87o91bw4mx.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190731012754.3783a859.freebsd@edvax.de> <878ssc5v3x.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190802060356.eebda021.freebsd@edvax.de> <87tvaz8gkn.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190802213025.884985d57dbfd7bf20ae4cd5@sohara.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 461Lwm250Gz3P72 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=adminart.net header.s=strato-dkim-0002 header.b=d57SaOsY; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of lee@adminart.net has no SPF policy when checking 2a01:238:20a:202:5300::7) smtp.mailfrom=lee@adminart.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.08 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[adminart.net:s=strato-dkim-0002]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[adminart.net]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[adminart.net:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.997,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[hw@adminart.net,lee@adminart.net]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[7.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.3.5.2.0.2.0.a.0.2.0.8.3.2.0.1.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6724, ipnet:2a01:238::/32, country:DE]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[hw@adminart.net,lee@adminart.net]; IP_SCORE(-1.99)[ip: (-6.23), ipnet: 2a01:238::/32(-3.24), asn: 6724(-0.45), country: DE(-0.01)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2019 00:14:02 -0000 Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: > On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 22:20:40 +0200 > hw wrote: > >> I'll still try Sylpheed ... It's been around for a while now, and I'm >> curious. > > I've been happy with it for many years now. Well, it seemed pretty good, and I intend to use it instead of Thunderbird or seamonkey. I'm not sure if it would be wise to make the users switch over as well, though. But then, it might just be wise because sylpheed might cause less trouble in the long run. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Aug 4 07:37:18 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40089A127B for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2019 07:37:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic309-26.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic309-26.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.179.84]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 461XmD3hYvz4F8N for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2019 07:37:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: vcHLl3cVM1l_XoU4Le5wcHN2JqU7WkXXxUPPWElUQvN2YGO55wdJfdf6t9SRIog AnmEixEwYEeuG4HD9k3Tk590WRy40HDMtL7thYxOH9a0XTr5TxQh1EVBwnzkSO81J1CvcPx0lx_g 0inDv95pWXOILtlFjBWtFEu9TZ4GKK9xGt2xlQRHiin5aKvQhYyq5.ofuT84ZAKEbx_VIgLUhjUj 2n1XQJDdK7ZQMBX.0KYQW6WWiXcEcNTydRXcF3I2ZKw90YEKo8OXIjqHsC0VMeXL1WdPYN9VX2tv er43NNYK01jtRuNUeWt0A9qfSzYW5bFE0KddtLf1WP4soC3mLXDhHLowCW9g9EasN475tFXyVvl4 gm9uTzs.xCZQwjeLz.ZKoKwVkXWyNGVh0FEAK0RoFuzBjzCWklDinepRdiZvYWj5pS_bJ8v4NpkX GDw6jrbeKMGMZ_mUxUU8aLZIu6BQgiw23ro9yY7eNIkwcnphGskQHxuwDrfi.ZQ17QUTfEzNdx.7 dxMQeZi2Mzoj2_1.0X2Gg7T82zlsOqXNqiWHSKNsfX5U2_BmvSd4g8zABCsgR67yIIAdwzMOkRXE wqNz..N3RRqC7uprICKlGDAndQ..FAbQ7yLh4j72g69cteAyJyK0glM1hgMO9q6RYjqw49MsDycN GxhQ7QfJV6n_lXeJV7OfF.i08_0Ba8EH6rft4oZEbJ0wjvtlWQj_rC8yvW_c1fkNW51yXp5_w7j9 LGHocUWt4XzPJlXD2T7mvZoFcbIpKT7ceYQ_rwXy9Q_fomRZyAHAPeLsW4HIZUY9R3WbzLevScY4 KXW3fUb4ITv52c.xeB7GzbyE6Xa_KLwoNa59MmDA0IVw9MrjxjsGlP8Bz0C7ikjvSQBCfBCt5VhH c9to7nsF3asUknqEvMCuCx_CC2w_a2UJPCEOJ2xeow5QjDD6aX5gIJPr40ENMvvWZJEFrTTAKVBm 66bWONvKSSOtspY_gv5NFjBerEG4TnpB0iB9oxNqUAomrs_zijvwE5UwjvRKGVN05SBgHYhdcgHR .3smIFKh9n1vbgLj_2MeMJH9j.7Ufrsxzs8nZb9z3nXiDOpUitTPe4HQ_T8UpZ1neOYaLrVzQnD6 QczpfeTs1nKe5Q0pBhfLXRJtZUPyrG4K.G7vmoRLYu4mNlo0TFOwcdCjHGuc6NAOFNyCPpm6Ebem v4VgX1CNqc8ZydpPCSa5I0oKVB38AMYg8dJFCK2Oc0.1R2FJV9Jij8LCQ_BIedSJR09nSaeoCwfU ARZapAQgzktyf6jG.Wag6vj0- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic309.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 4 Aug 2019 07:37:13 +0000 Received: by smtp422.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 9bd800acbf6ae406bab2db7306e5f92c; Sun, 04 Aug 2019 07:37:10 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2019 09:37:10 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: thunderbird in German? Message-ID: <20190804093710.66948e68@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <87lfw9bxeb.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <87o91bw4mx.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190731012754.3783a859.freebsd@edvax.de> <878ssc5v3x.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190802060356.eebda021.freebsd@edvax.de> <87tvaz8gkn.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190802213025.884985d57dbfd7bf20ae4cd5@sohara.org> <87lfw9bxeb.fsf@toy.adminart.net> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 461XmD3hYvz4F8N X-Spamd-Bar: ++ X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.52 / 15.00]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(0.00)[rocketmail.com,reject]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (2.89), ipnet: 77.238.176.0/22(2.24), asn: 34010(1.77), country: GB(-0.08)]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(0.00)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(1.00)[0.996,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; URIBL_PBL(0.01)[kernelshark.org]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[84.179.238.77.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2019 07:37:18 -0000 On Sun, 04 Aug 2019 02:13:32 +0200, hw wrote: >Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: >> On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 22:20:40 +0200 hw wrote: >> >>> I'll still try Sylpheed ... It's been around for a while now, and >>> I'm curious. >> >> I've been happy with it for many years now. > >Well, it seemed pretty good, and I intend to use it instead of >Thunderbird or seamonkey. I'm not sure if it would be wise to make the >users switch over as well, though. But then, it might just be wise >because sylpheed might cause less trouble in the long run. Hi, that's a naive miscalculation. I dislike Mozilla projects for several reasons, but what makes you think that Sylpheed might cause less trouble in the long run? It might not cause trouble on FreeBSD yet, but it will in the short run, since on Linux it already does, as all GTK apps and especially GTK2 apps do. On Linux GTK2 apps tend to suffer from a mysterious "!xcb_xlib_threads_sequence_lost" bug, that makes those apps crash constantly. Ubuntu 16.04, a very old long term support release doesn't suffer from it, but more recent releases of release model distros do and rolling releases such as Arch Linux do, too. Some projects have got a GTK2 and GTK3 port and you get rid of this issue, when compiling against GTK3. I don't know if Sylpheed has got a GTK3 port, but Claws has got, unfortunately it's "experimental", IOW broken in many ways. You also might have noticed that some Linux projects migrated from GTK to Qt. Btw. way closer to Thunderbird features is Evolution. Claws and Sylpheed are lightweight, but might miss features one or the other user might need. Evolution suffers from an icu issue, it doesn't work correctly anymore, as soon as compiled against icu 64 instead of icu < 64. If the only issue with Thunderbird should be translations, I strongly recommend to stay with Thunderbird. FWIW I'm using $ locale LANG=en_US.utf8 LC_CTYPE="en_US.utf8" LC_NUMERIC="en_US.utf8" LC_TIME="en_US.utf8" LC_COLLATE="en_US.utf8" LC_MONETARY="en_US.utf8" LC_MESSAGES="en_US.utf8" LC_PAPER="en_US.utf8" LC_NAME="en_US.utf8" LC_ADDRESS="en_US.utf8" LC_TELEPHONE="en_US.utf8" LC_MEASUREMENT="en_US.utf8" LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_US.utf8" LC_ALL= but I'm doing parallel usage of Englisch and German dictionaries for spell checking ant it's a PITA and only works properly by staying with a very old English dictionary, with newer dictionaries you get a lot of false positives regarding case sensitivity. Actually I migrated from Mozilla MUAs to Evolution years ago. I tested Kmail, but experienced way to many issues. After a while I installed Claws and Sylpheed, too, because I want to share POP accounts between old LTS releases and a rolling release. Due to Evolutions dependency chain against GNOME, it's impossible to maintain identical versions of Evolution for distros of "different ages", while it's easy to do for Claws. GTK2 issues: https://www.thewildbeast.co.uk/claws-mail/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=4203#c10 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gtk+2.0/+bug/1808710 icu 64 issue: https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/62317 https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/2019-August/msg00032.html Some of the projects that migrated from GTK to Qt: http://www.kernelshark.org/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LXDE#Qt_port Regards, Ralf From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Aug 5 00:43:16 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0567B61DF for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2019 00:43:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lee@adminart.net) Received: from mo6-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de (mo6-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de [IPv6:2a01:238:20a:202:5300::6]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "*.smtp.rzone.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 461zX32QYsz43x5 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2019 00:43:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lee@adminart.net) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1564965791; s=strato-dkim-0002; d=adminart.net; h=Message-ID:Date:Subject:To:From:X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH:From: Subject:Sender; bh=5adxwvebiNInzIvthG3mmjdEXkKuVUpd1tOxw2qsD+c=; b=S3avPCoVr5vUZ2qqo5aCoFUO84nVizDfxxCqkLRo4Eo9wtBndP3iq9fXfxD6UVv7Xo 5vZjvaNeYIccm4OE7MDzXaJJy0oRPb+E/oW0R9FSDBbZHo+zPxWSv4SvD+l2tjxIBmd2 2vpKym6ABYR3r9kDGrZchb1CkFz6MlZGbfv07ZxBADfK6A5PAcQtkZmVoR/RgQ7M/lzS WXKDdQEbFud8LHMwBEdla9iwN5lY4t6Rdn7yvzBmWskFSiLKfE01f5PHEsgY7D5e0RlW 3KUL6lFoCLFDkKnlDGzc9Ku0SejK+a65VH2rUJ96zJGVWDStn4fADXyBbsP9rA9251Wn ycpA== X-RZG-AUTH: ":O2kGeEG7b/pS1FS4THaxjVF9w0vVgfQ9xGcjwO5WMRo5c+h5ceMqQWZ3yrBp+ARdaXvxIDf7nlw=" X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Received: from himinbjorg.adminart.net by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 44.24 DYNA|AUTH) with ESMTPSA id e0059dv750hBc8K (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (curve secp521r1 with 521 ECDH bits, eq. 15360 bits RSA)) (Client did not present a certificate) for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2019 02:43:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from toy.adminart.net ([192.168.3.55]) by himinbjorg.adminart.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1huR5j-0000vk-54 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Mon, 05 Aug 2019 02:43:11 +0200 Received: from lee by toy.adminart.net with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1huR5i-000272-P9 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Mon, 05 Aug 2019 02:43:11 +0200 From: hw To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: how to install into a directory Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2019 01:22:21 +0200 Organization: my virtual residence Message-ID: <871ry05xea.fsf@toy.adminart.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 461zX32QYsz43x5 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=adminart.net header.s=strato-dkim-0002 header.b=S3avPCoV; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of lee@adminart.net has no SPF policy when checking 2a01:238:20a:202:5300::6) smtp.mailfrom=lee@adminart.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.65 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[adminart.net:s=strato-dkim-0002]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.88)[-0.877,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[adminart.net]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[adminart.net:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.94)[-0.936,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[hw@adminart.net,lee@adminart.net]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[6.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.3.5.2.0.2.0.a.0.2.0.8.3.2.0.1.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6724, ipnet:2a01:238::/32, country:DE]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[hw@adminart.net,lee@adminart.net]; IP_SCORE(-0.74)[ipnet: 2a01:238::/32(-3.24), asn: 6724(-0.45), country: DE(-0.01)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2019 00:43:16 -0000 Hi, how can I install FreeBSD into a directory as [1] suggests: "Install the base system into ${NFSROOTDIR}, either by decompressing the official archives or by rebuilding the FreeBSD kernel and userland" What archives is this referring to? Could I run the installer to install to a hard drive until I have set up everything the way I need it and then boot from a live-CD to copy everything from the hard drive into ${NFSROOTDIR}? [1]: https://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/network-diskless.html From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Aug 5 02:18:11 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26826B7849 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2019 02:18:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mafsys1234@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pl1-x642.google.com (mail-pl1-x642.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::642]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4621dY4N4Kz472Z for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2019 02:18:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mafsys1234@gmail.com) Received: by mail-pl1-x642.google.com with SMTP id k8so35847300plt.3 for ; Sun, 04 Aug 2019 19:18:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; 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Sun, 04 Aug 2019 19:18:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([210.11.155.251]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c70sm46721507pfb.36.2019.08.04.19.18.06 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 04 Aug 2019 19:18:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: how to install into a directory To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <871ry05xea.fsf@toy.adminart.net> From: MJ Message-ID: <18a2c14c-0767-534a-dc48-dbd167180e1b@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2019 12:17:44 +1000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <871ry05xea.fsf@toy.adminart.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4621dY4N4Kz472Z X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=F03gAhie; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mafsys1234@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::642 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mafsys1234@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.98 / 15.00]; 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Extract them into that directory. On 5/08/2019 9:22 am, hw wrote: > Hi, > > how can I install FreeBSD into a directory as [1] suggests: > > > "Install the base system into ${NFSROOTDIR}, either by decompressing the > official archives or by rebuilding the FreeBSD kernel and userland" > > > What archives is this referring to? Could I run the installer to > install to a hard drive until I have set up everything the way I need it > and then boot from a live-CD to copy everything from the hard drive into > ${NFSROOTDIR}? > > > [1]: https://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/network-diskless.html > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Aug 5 04:52:28 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00B5EB9883 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2019 04:52:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 46253Z5stsz4DF0 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2019 04:52:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.39.63]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue012 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MLzeb-1hch222mVF-00HsUR; Mon, 05 Aug 2019 06:47:07 +0200 Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2019 06:47:03 +0200 From: Polytropon To: hw Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: thunderbird in German? Message-Id: <20190805064703.b1e29cbf.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <87y30aaptw.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <87o91bw4mx.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190731012754.3783a859.freebsd@edvax.de> <23873.2939.410268.920612@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <20190731225154.82dcb0ae.freebsd@edvax.de> <87h8705waf.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190802050200.dd286e57.freebsd@edvax.de> <877e7v9wts.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190803040009.291039df.freebsd@edvax.de> <87y30aaptw.fsf@toy.adminart.net> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:jUrYC7ctjk/kwLzk3+R+tCQDrA53S8Lm3mGumaWhVT1YgY7u3at fEAUvbzHWLu3ppOUwy7zqPVoQ7GVeGP6Q1jPe9CfHCVBwx2pC6yUnZz7YFMlMtLMf1l1ovF r5YjwiZCnQLy08yuOD71MTevda9cMH9X2xQlsrq5qYMdqVnGLlWmujGDkoUzZUuAO2woLTA tW9p6s4eSxvSKFjBqsjfQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:Fj4/av9YskY=:Gx8LvL7WoZhwsldWIHHhlY 09uMvw3noXvowiZvvxGiFQcStVPulBnRZqCeYg8NCfz1/z9G/cVoeeNjtZel0h20duV0NE5kX AQXucxJ0EEwYIMMSYjyC+rJvt2Wtw//uvRmhHF6GaL/ZHFDFLtoSq2nIC+Yu6UxzJB168s5uR jRwn9NmlvAV6PPbwxvoYCYlQlDpNi+Sx/U3awc3BGeZHcoT83Uv7VkcOPgjG6bTil0UJYIJvF 37NlFJLJXPm3FvAucGShxb7E7vwJ664PscYrul1x+fkvAD9um9YJkFhX61z2YDybdXm7u4xDx tPlkTYBHjkfjxAkXZboXDnU4fhTKeehwSib6NDSskVvg51eGK637S6sgz+rU8ixMMLwb7GKNB CcBA2qyX57OjMbdTrWBj8+C8+FcyxK4D8s4rY08OjLR2ke9eBH7G/BDzXw3az83iJgczp1/gw yodC2NKbM9r/OKwcneNTqrekDovj+gSuxop+MOndtufoiWzEx7ew4qZl4gkRgqXu3RrUVMUcp Dwd9Q9PygO3n3yoj3htY48hBCpALL+WyCwgI9kwRU7vCwcK9tnaG4Mi+Mj4DMWF+W07KiGjzu N2crMyJgfEzdeN2yaFCxe4czz7/YbQRGyQg5hUqWVQsOctrIt5sYCuFv0L/rZFncKeBmCmRZE ik6XtVc8JWCGD5rXoBJZ7fgc8OTHaeQNr0v6ykljb8B0Pwil3FDql273egKfykcqjSXPoVSl8 b1UZaASK/vNOBQ655xyIzKGhQBdggyRT8yO3wKanomzO9XZHJS1CJenj9Es= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 46253Z5stsz4DF0 X-Spamd-Bar: +++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.134) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [5.94 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[63.39.8.178.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.98)[0.978,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.96)[0.960,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[134.126.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body]; IP_SCORE(0.61)[ip: (2.17), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.44), asn: 8560(2.30), country: DE(-0.01)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2019 04:52:28 -0000 On Sat, 03 Aug 2019 23:42:19 +0200, hw wrote: > Polytropon writes: >=20 > > On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 21:44:15 +0200, hw wrote: > >> Polytropon writes: > >>=20 > >> > On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 00:57:12 +0200, hw wrote: > >> >> Polytropon writes: > >>=20 > >> > [...] > >> I usually don't notice whether it's English or German, but the users > >> will freak out as if it would make a difference (which it doesn't > >> because they don't know what they're doing anyway). > > > > Same here. I prefer the english interface language because the > > german translation often is incomplete (english menu items among > > german ones) or wrong or missing (especially regarding error > > messages). >=20 > right >=20 > I think part of the problem is that Germany has almost entirely missed > out on this technology, hence there is neither any frame of mind that > could lead to good translations, nor are there words available that > would be required. Availability of words (especially for established termini technici) is not a problem. I think the mindset it the following: "Novice users won't read documentation anyway. Advanced users can understand the existing english documentation, so why translate it?" In many cases, the translation, if it exists, is sloppy and contains lots of errors in many aspects (especially spelling and punctuation), because the language skills of Germans regarding their own language is constantly decreasing due to the ongoing "spelling reforms" which cause writers to be unsure what spelling and punctuation rule is valid _now_... > If there was a suitable frame of mind, there would > probably be words, though it might be difficult to find a frame of mind > without the suitable words. One core problem is that english words are simply interwoven in a german sentence, like "wenn der Computer idle ist", where a german translation would be possible (and useful, especially if there is no explanation of what "idle" means. Another core problem is to perform at least the attempt (!) to provide suitable words, instead of going the "easier" way mentioned above. Misunderstandings are preprogrammed. :-) But keep in mind Germans, before 1990, were able to use programs provided in English, because there simply was no other language version available. This especially applied to the 8-bit era and the mainframe use. > It took years before I finally figured out that "allgemeine > Schutzverletzung" is supposed to mean "segmentation fault". The correct TT is "Speicherschutzverletzung", as segmentation refers to memory. :-) Took me some learning to understand that in SYSABEND, "abend" didn't mean "evening", but "AB-normal END". I still use the word "Sysabend machen" for "Feierabend machen". And a classic one: "Help! My PC says I performed an illegal abortion!!!" ;-) > I wouldn't > even call that a translation; it only shows that whoever came up with it > had no clue what they were translating. Segmentation fault makes > perfect sense in English and none whatsoever in German because there is > no frame of mind with which anyone could understand what it means. I'd > call it "Arbeitsspeicherbereichstrennungs=FCberschreitung", and noone > would understand that, either. The logical conclusion would be "Segmentierung" while explaining what this means in the context of memory, and next to "fault", there's also "violation" where more than one possible translation exists; I'd say "=DCberschreitung" or "Verletzung" would be a good one in _this_ context. > > The only programs I really _want_ to be in German are LibreOffice and > > Firefox (for reference). >=20 > So are they any different or is it just to see how bad the translation > is? The german translation for LibreOffice is excellent, and it helps me in my work to have a reference system in the same language as my users. Additionally I often don't know the english name of something I'm familiar with in German, like "Registerhaltigkeit" or other TT from typography. The same applies to Firefox (for reference), even though _I_ like my browsers in English. An additional fact is that the english words are shorter (in horizontal size), so menues are more convenient to use, like "Reply to sender" vs. "Antworten an Absender". :-) > >> This kinda reminds me of Gnome with which it is impossible to even add= a > >> program starter. > > > > Oh, don't get me started with my hate-journey across Gnome. While > > Gnome first was superior to KDE language-wise, it later became > > more and more complicated: Not reading .xinitrc or .xsession, so > > forcing you to manually add "autostart programs", and mount/umount > > (and eject for optical units) didn't work at all, even though I > > followed the existing documentation, but finally I had to hack > > the umount binary (!)... And GDM's inability to launch anything > > than a Gnome session, and then came Gnome 3 which was so unusable > > that I switched the systems that ran Gnome for many years to Mate. > > That's the end of my personal Gnome story. :-) >=20 > I could never bring myself to actually use it. I seriously wanted to > try not long ago and had to give up when I found that I can't configure > some windows to have no decorations and others to be sticky and on top. > Even the most simple stuff is impossible with Gnome. Especially in Gnome 3, where I often say it might probably make sense on a tablet, but not on a computer screen... :-/ > >> It's already entirely useless because it doesn't even > >> have a usable window manager, but who would expect that you can't do > >> something basic like adding a start button or a menu entry. I had to > >> switch a machine ever to KDE because of that. > > > > Would you say KDE is usable again for "german novice users"? > > I haven't tried KDE for some time because of bloat... >=20 > I know someone who's using it after I switched to KDE from Gnome because > he needed a couple program starters. So far, he seems to be ok with it. I've had users using PC-BSD years ago, when it was still KDE-based, and they were happy with it. > I haven't tried KDE in a very long time. I used it for a while and gave > up because of too many bugs. My fear of KDE is bloat. It has its own subsystems, piles of libraries, services and so on that are primarily developed for Linux. Will they always work on FreeBSD as intended? And if your PC is already a few years old, will the graphics be smooth enough to be usable? Many years ago, someone complained about skipping audio on a quite performant PC. I replied that on my 150 MHz Pentium PC with 128 MB RAM, I could play MP3 (non-skipping), burn a CD, download FreeBSD sources, compile a port, and still have a responsive web browser (Opera) in the foreground, so why should that be a problem? :-) > I've never had any use for these so-called > "desktop environments", and I don't understand what the point of those > is. Many users coming from a "Windows" background depend on certain things to exist. As long as the desktop provides an equivalent, they're happy. Now compare this to users I once had coming from a Solaris background, expecting something like CDE. What I did? Configure XFCE (version 3) to look and feel like KDE, wether they used a Linux or a BSD workstation. They were happy with it, and it was faster than on the old Solaris boxes they left behind. :-) > They seem to try to force you to do stuff in some more or less > weird way someone apparently figured should be the way to do things --- > but it isn't, and they're just getting in the way. That is a significant problem during migration. People have to "unlearn" the complicated ways they have acquired over the years, and if you show them the easy way, they will feel enlightened. Example: A few weeks ago, I had a user complaining that if he opened a PDF file in "Windows 10", he sat infront of the machine for nearly 30 minutes and didn't know how to close it. There was no visual clue. I told him: "Try pressing Alt+F4." It worked. He became interested and asked: "Are there more of those shortcuts?" I gave him a list. He's more productive now, and he told me that _this_ should be taught in the software courses. The same "obscurity of dialog elements" applies to Gnome where you need to _know_ something (because you can't see it) in order to do something. Another example: An accountant complained that her expensive software would often cause needless printouts - waste of paper that nobody needs. But deleting the printer queue with the GUI elements often didn't go fast enough, so the nonsense was still printed. I told her to open a terminal in parallel, and after the program starts generating the "waste reports", enter "lprm -", and repeat the command a few times if needed, until she could click on the button to print the actually desired report. She wanted to learn more, and now she's able to use "lpq" and "lprm" on all the printers in the office. > That's probably how > you can not add program starters to Gnome: Someone must have figured > that you must not start programs of your choosing with the required > parameters, hence you can't. Perhaps the next version doesn't have a > terminal because nobody needs one and it's way too complicated anyway. As far as I know, at least on some Ubuntu versions with Gnome 3, there isn't a terminal in the dock on the left, and you need to "explore apps" in order to find it, or maybe right-click to check if "Open Terminal" is in the desktop's or top bar's context menu. > At least if you manage to set up your keyboard right, you can still > switch to the console until they remove that possibility, too. Yes, that was also a problem. I configured a german keyboard for all users centrally in the X configuration, and additionally in the XML file buried deep in the /usr/local tree, for the dreaded HAL/DBus combo. Gnome didn't care. It knew better, and for all users, keyboard configuration had to be done manually by clicking around. O(n) is worse than O(1), and _that_ is what we have computers for. :-) > Can you even switch when using wayland? And how would you X11-forward > something to a wayland session through ssh, should wayland ever work > with NVIDIA cards? You probably can't. My impression is that Wayland is "local only", so the networking features of X aren't usable anymore. You can probably still use some kind of VNC server / client... > >> There's just nothing better than fvwm ... > > > > On my laptop I'm using IceWM (with "metal2" style which finally > > includes a BSD start button, but at the top, where it belongs to) > > again, combined with wbar and a Mac background image for a "good > > look". ;-) > > > > On my home system, I found nothing better than a highly customized > > WIndowMaker with xdm. >=20 > Fvwm manages windows. All the other window managers I've tried force you > to manage the windows yourself. I was quite happy with fvwm, the only problem was that it stopped supporting Alt+left click for moving windows (as this is very convenient and works almost everywhere). So I tried to get the configuration file to support it again, and sometimes it worked, then stopped working, so I gave up and re-discovered IceWM with the "metal2" theme. I don't care about the menu on the top left, I don't configure that, because for the most important programs, I have wbar at the bottom, and everything else is CLI work anyway, so managing terminal windows is the biggest task IceWM performs. > How are IceWM and Windowmaker in that regard? WindowMaker is excellent, at least after you configured it according to your needs. I have a keyboard with a 2x5 section left to the alphanumeric section (Sun type 7 german, and IBM 5250 custom). I use those for window manipulation, like rolling them up, shifting them to another virtual desktop (very important!), changing foreground and background ("stacking"), or maximizing (hardly done, because on a 21" 4:3 CRT, you usually don't fullscreen). But everything depends on configuration and how you get used to it. I also tried tiling window managers (because people much more professional than me use them all the time), but I'm too stupid for them. I know what they do, what their intention is, and how they work, but it just doesn't match my established workflow. The same applies to emacs. ;-) --=20 Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Aug 5 05:05:31 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB6E5B9BBB for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2019 05:05:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4625Lf3zlLz4DdD for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2019 05:05:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.39.63]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue012 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1N3Gok-1iKFa20aYM-010Jla; Mon, 05 Aug 2019 07:05:24 +0200 Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2019 07:05:22 +0200 From: Polytropon To: hw Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: thunderbird in German? Message-Id: <20190805070522.be1fb873.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <87pnllbxp7.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <87o91bw4mx.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190731012754.3783a859.freebsd@edvax.de> <878ssc5v3x.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190802053434.6babd0d0.freebsd@edvax.de> <87y30b8h0v.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190803042205.550f5903.freebsd@edvax.de> <87pnllbxp7.fsf@toy.adminart.net> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:G/8SZ/LSpqZjKMQoEymwfiUAitOaLDMchIi44J7aA0/T8zWNHbZ gVmZ2uskYLA1ARcMlbezoUFwLWH3EIX6de+sUEuvOWzRomrl35m/Iz8g7kOdsQzgm4HHxZq NWR4VFekSK2Np0ZN/IQjSwum6ML+i5v0orbH/tEh3qXxGZ4P2ZP9OMrXYrz8cam4/owEk9f dovSNP42GF37Ucica9Eag== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:FYtHecF62Lk=:PSpz0frk1UeaYv+2vN6HAe wj+21Vjy7/izpUZdH3/7Cr3fert46HTJEEaFaUx4lrKbWj2mqdRMsGIhnXX5BolB43nH+/Zzi aJcrMxtJWdh/VVKNvF2zNWrK47N80mUvKr9iXm7ePrEdaWsoPqHvU2PvYuEOy2UtG/wUlT5lJ ejPauCOcuDFzLoxCOCoqo50IYIeA6wRkGkyZEL8R1nWwPB38GDtvosKk0unsryELpu0GZXn4w vJcLi75XQLKj2LwwicdDtvucYLdehD40iKxZzocVe7WZlNYoA4ENTgwU+O7lBMTrI8jzntdpa 4YBV35tqvMblWS2oWxhM755NGBdYy5M/aW6cNnHymJU55TJ2v8Zsi05uSuUNPg5dO9upuWIxq rNRrxh06wbCjHFkIYtHJVII4G9gxps7kqzGfmCg8OLNFBCXsFGL4Z7Zibdum9J5D7ZnvB6AxH tWe8zJu92gSeUVIUMcH8sgMHwWzKVa8kteg3ESPRcPMbaw+/ZtXmMbgqp8vFg4hP6/71dBKP1 qlXYxpzuIvI0gS5n8HHYhOKsXU4acdVnTW7vfpUYGg8xVEOlGPmbih3e8ofCCPghMOjpoFCAT hlDLACrIQ89ZUCku2H7osBDxMqFI4CNBtNvyEix4Uzp5Thz6xRqHTUb+3gWsi0iWHRTI6JiA5 z1W98VxobYx8TH8OxbCmqfygI8a5gH3LcnfljKfXTTYaCgqGjCwWwryrytRVK2gbkP0sG6HlY H576kPHpXPFgqQMrLJRNx/9ISKOyAfxcumBFK2I/pF+viKyNuc3mQTy18FU= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4625Lf3zlLz4DdD X-Spamd-Bar: ++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.133) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [6.05 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[63.39.8.178.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.98)[0.985,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.97)[0.972,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[133.126.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; IP_SCORE(0.70)[ip: (2.63), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.44), asn: 8560(2.30), country: DE(-0.01)] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2019 05:05:31 -0000 On Sun, 04 Aug 2019 02:07:00 +0200, hw wrote: > Polytropon writes: > > > On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 22:10:56 +0200, hw wrote: > >> Polytropon writes: > >> > >> > On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 01:22:42 +0200, hw wrote: > >> >> Polytropon writes: > >> >> > >> [...] > > While it has been good practice for decades to use -Wall and its > > equivalents, it doesn't seem to be important anymore. Compile time > > errors and warnings are irrelevant just as runtime warnings and > > errors. > > My impression is that software is now generally much more stable than it > used to be. I don't know why, perhaps better tools became available. Yes, program stability has improved, especially for web browsers. But it's more than fair to acknowledge that the complexity of a web browser is comparable to the complexity of a whole operating system. > > You can easily verify this by launching any "modern" Gtk or Qt program > > from a terminal, say, Firefox, Gimp, and so on. > > You mean the messages they're printing and nobody knows what they are > about? I have written a small program in perl that uses Gtk and it > prints a message when I quit it. There is no reason for it to do that, > so what should I do: > > > (in cleanup) (in cleanup) at /usr/local/lib/perl/Database.pm line 163 during global destruction. > > > Line 163 disconnects from the database, using the disconnect method of > DBI. There is no such message in programs without Gtk, doing the same > thing, using the same source. It seems such messages show up for no > reason. I'm refering to things that seem to signal an error or a condition that should never appear. Here are a few: (gimp:3022): GLib-WARNING **: goption.c:2132: ignoring no-arg, optional-arg or filename flags (8) on option of type 0 (gimp:3022): Gimp-Display-CRITICAL **: render_image_tile_fault: assertion `tile[4] != NULL' failed end from FAM server connection end from FAM server connection end from FAM server connection end from FAM server connection end from FAM server connection (gimp:3022): Gtk-CRITICAL **: IA__gtk_icon_info_load_icon: assertion `icon_info != NULL' failed end from FAM server connection end from FAM server connection (gimp:3022): Gimp-Display-CRITICAL **: render_image_tile_fault: assertion `tile[4] != NULL' failed (gimp:3022): Gtk-CRITICAL **: IA__gtk_icon_info_load_icon: assertion `icon_info != NULL' failed (gimp:3022): Gimp-Base-WARNING **: tile ref count balance: 20 (process:3532): Gtk-WARNING **: Locale not supported by C library. Using the fallback 'C' locale. (gimp:4511): Gtk-CRITICAL **: IA__gtk_icon_info_load_icon: assertion `icon_info != NULL' failed libpng warning: zero length keyword libpng warning: Empty language field in iTXt chunk end from FAM server connection end from FAM server connection A few can be explained (the last one probably refers to a damaged or nonstandard PNG file), but the others are warnings and "CRITICAL", where I think this should have been addressed during testing. Do they still do testing today? :-) > > Churning out new versions and new features often seems to be > > more important that fixing bugs or working against bad decisions. > > Doing it right for everyone is impossible, I know, but a certain > > amount of "good old common sense" should be applied more. :-) > > These kids don't have that. How could they? Need more download brain apps from smartphone. :-) > >> > Because it's left to the users to find out how to do "nonstandard" > >> > things like intending to change the interface language. Because > >> > all the world only the English always! ;-) > >> > >> and right handed, of course > > > > Remember that traditional X (and X applications using the XMotif > > and Xaw / Xaw3d toolkits, if I remember correctly) provides a > > "/ shaped" mouse pointer (instead of the traditional \ one), and > > it can be enabled with "xsetroot -cursor_name right_ptr". However, > > some programs use their own mouse pointer, and it will change > > as soon as you point into such a window... > > That's the same stupid idea as is behind programs insisting on doing > the job of the window manager by drawing their own decorations. Exactly. I don't get that idea anyway. Traditionally on X, you have programs using different toolkits, and that's okay, because there is no "one size fits all" kind of eierlegende Wollmilchsau GUI toolkit. Inconsistent? Sure, but nobody cares. Those who claim that visual consistency is "needed" are scared today after discovering that it doesn't exist, not even on Mac (and "Windows" lost GUI consistency decades ago). A program's job is _not_ to do what the window manager does. A program can request to be handled in a different way, for exaple, without a window decoration (like XMMS MP3 player where it doesn't make sense, or little utilities in the "system corner" like xconsole, xbiff, xclock, xload, xcpufreq, etc.). But programs sometimes used their own ugly white _mouse cursor_ for no reason! Using a specific mouse cursor is normal for tools like Gimp, xfig, even LibreOffice. But generic programs? Why? > >> But when you use the trackball with your left hand, [...] > > > > That's entirely wrong. You don't use a trackball because it > > does not exist. Everyone uses a mouse (old people) or taps on > > the screen (young people). ;-) > > Dunno, I've already been way ahead of those tiny tap-screens 35 years > ago when I used an old black-and-white TV as a display for my computer. > I could see everything on it, and I could even program the computer > which made it rather useful, and, imagine that, without being spied upon > and without being controlled by anyone else. So I don't understand how > anyone can put up with the useless crap you have to tap on while you > can't see anything and achieve nothing. That's totally intended. :-) > >> [...] you suddenly notice > >> how wrong all the GUIs are designed. The old X programs can have the > >> scroll bar on the left no problem, but all the new stuff is so great > >> because it's immature and you have to click the like buttons nonetheless > >> (even if you can't reach them because they're at odd locations). > > > > This is called "to explore". ;-) > > Hallowed are the like buttons! Who presses the greatest number of them > will be rewarded with the most friends of them all! I prefer the dislike buttons, I'd be tempted to click on _those_ rather than the Facebook spy machine's ones. :-) > >> >> >> Is this a general problem > >> >> >> with the language pack or something specific to FreeBSD? > >> >> > > >> >> > Not FreeBSD-specific. It's one of the typical problems of > >> >> > "constant change" when dealing with Mozilla software... :-/ > >> >> > >> >> Is there a usable alternative to Thunderbird for an IMAP client? > >> > > >> > Yes, Sylpheed is a lightweight and still very convenient and > >> > usable MUA. It supports IMAP (as well as SMTP and POP3, which > >> > is so obvious that I don't need to mention it). > >> > >> Hm. I'll try that out, thanks. If that is in German, the users can > >> decide what causes them more confusion: the same program they're used to > >> in English but German or a new program they've never used, but in German. > > > > Sylpheed is in any language you want (English and German verified), > > depending on what $LC_* says. > > I tried it yesterday, and it has come a long way. I think the last time > I tried it, it was called slightly different with claws, and it crashed > all the time. Yes, I had the same problem on FreeBSD/AMD64. I'm not using the Claws version ("Claws mail" today? I don't know due to the many name chances...) and I'm more than happy with it. It does what I want, and even better (!): It does _not_ do what I _don't_ want it to do, like rendering HTML, automatically open attachments, or other nonsense. It also integrates well with my mailing setup, a nonstandard configuration that "modern" MUAs probably cannot even be configured to attach to, because there's "only one way" to access mail. > It starts like 10 times faster than Thunderbird and even > lets me use emacs. Yes, you can use an external editor. The file selection dialogs are also better than the modern "tablet mode oriented" ones. And it doesn't have a calender. And no add-ins, add-ons, extensions, and the like. Still you can configure a lot, like generating mail as text, using the preferred encoding... > Writing any email that is more than two sentences > with Thunderbird or seamonkey is always a pain because their built-in > editor sucks so badly and they force you to use it. You can still get it a little better, but you need to go into the configuration dialogs and change a lot - change it _back_ to sane defaults. > But I haven't figured out how to make it so that libreoffice instead of > gedit is the default program to open spreadsheets attached to > emails. Right-click on attachment, select "Open with", enter the command needed for this file type, and it will be saved. For example, I have two different commands for PDF attachments - simply because I sometimes need program A, sometimes program B, depending on the PDF file. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Aug 5 05:11:29 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C915BB9D49 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2019 05:11:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4625TX4F8Dz4Dtx for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2019 05:11:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.39.63]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue012 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MVrXh-1hkMuL0bif-00Ro81; Mon, 05 Aug 2019 07:11:20 +0200 Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2019 07:11:20 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions Subject: Re: thunderbird in German? Message-Id: <20190805071120.c258204a.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20190804093710.66948e68@archlinux> References: <87o91bw4mx.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190731012754.3783a859.freebsd@edvax.de> <878ssc5v3x.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190802060356.eebda021.freebsd@edvax.de> <87tvaz8gkn.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190802213025.884985d57dbfd7bf20ae4cd5@sohara.org> <87lfw9bxeb.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190804093710.66948e68@archlinux> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:yxPJ1NrlGXmrfHizD2sNWTwhX8bB7kir0gWHGsRQnV1qK75K2Qc MUedRQ9PelpoGcC9zgLekQB7TFG55FmT08h3LTd8yrajJAVwfIjsRL4iTeowpJ9SpP7DXWa XSdOaRj9REEZmi7gLHd97rik3Vs59aBhy+E3yI/gZnNSjRPdsYzEriON8e3gfT7wjBhHHQn tGRyBpPdmDAdYdanXJ0LA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:8ccCW6JijMU=:3lGV+Tzs2+4SYfGiYF8RiQ EaOilssRUWDeHAchgrkqfKqmTZiRGWkeuER0M7WdZpvfH4FFQ12ns45qAuUROPKDM6MbNOOiD OJjctCTYBuj9O3f1T/yiyZEN8byU9CoAT9f3wmzS7p/nXAYP2HgskGyKZZvxEbcwE1D41ncWf ypp8uuY6gm3DrgQRw6jZZln/Cmhxf53qtUmCvqVIQ5Lf84BIDRjmUcIOoDjkwrCjpS/lbxyGS QHo2OFAbQcb/kOyPEeY+qCNk7gZwwgGcLrtdapBY9D0XnMavsRNZ4oUd0cF7OWEAVqzSbvqd7 R0pameMGTXgOHVkZ9hbgzLXGWYgGMYdSzzueggT/gRozwa2sNwKLb173E15ytPccqBfBiyEwU Tn1cOVFPl4DSRSeSgOUifP26BKsBNMY8sELD/IcLtOVUUzENaDOENj5Ii9I1kEszMz88ECCj8 9c5MAxTWzV3Bgw/nhH8HTyHTz/uEm24Ut8EzWM4zPaf+Xhx3ZficVmQzD10Livcq1yetbSUql d3yE7L/nnHqnYHxPJf7E5bPRNGHF5fSIoSoBmn11CIYZi6wRULOpqW1DuS2xN0z+JV55sRALw irALNcswa4DWH97eSzlNm3EjoD8OGxRCLeLXyI8HhDjpX1BwdQzCNM2ngqTJoGvg2IWxwdnVy qO5Jk3twvI+JrejR2MUS1bg/A1CIvhCiLpmQP56HN9Y98CfazwHee9HW4muMU4mA9XRobq9jC P+LDEatF7JQ90DE7vI9vit4M0WOUhtyDlORYFVjVPdvJpPOTwyWxahynfow= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4625TX4F8Dz4Dtx X-Spamd-Bar: +++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.131) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [5.87 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[63.39.8.178.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.97)[0.974,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.95)[0.948,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[131.126.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(0.55)[ip: (1.90), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.44), asn: 8560(2.30), country: DE(-0.01)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2019 05:11:29 -0000 On Sun, 4 Aug 2019 09:37:10 +0200, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > On Sun, 04 Aug 2019 02:13:32 +0200, hw wrote: > >Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: > >> On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 22:20:40 +0200 hw wrote: > >> > >>> I'll still try Sylpheed ... It's been around for a while now, and > >>> I'm curious. > >> > >> I've been happy with it for many years now. > > > >Well, it seemed pretty good, and I intend to use it instead of > >Thunderbird or seamonkey. I'm not sure if it would be wise to make the > >users switch over as well, though. But then, it might just be wise > >because sylpheed might cause less trouble in the long run. > > Hi, > > that's a naive miscalculation. I dislike Mozilla projects for several > reasons, but what makes you think that Sylpheed might cause less trouble > in the long run? It might not cause trouble on FreeBSD yet, but it will > in the short run, since on Linux it already does, as all GTK apps and > especially GTK2 apps do. That is an important thought! As Gtk2 probably will EOL just like Gtk (1) did, newer toolkit versions _might_ tie much stronger into Linux infrastructures than the current version does, and porting them to FreeBSD might cause trouble because of missing kernel interfaces or library functions. > Some projects have got > a GTK2 and GTK3 port and you get rid of this issue, when compiling > against GTK3. I don't know if Sylpheed has got a GTK3 port, but Claws > has got, unfortunately it's "experimental", IOW broken in many ways. > You also might have noticed that some Linux projects migrated from GTK > to Qt. Let's see how Qt development is on FreeBSD... > Btw. way closer to Thunderbird features is Evolution. Claws and > Sylpheed are lightweight, but might miss features one or the other user > might need. That's why it's important to evaluate beforehand which features are needed by the users. Lightweight doesn't always mean usable _in a specific setting_, but it _could_ be, depending on the features needed. And you're right that Evolution is hardly "lightweight", but more like Thunderbird in terms of provided features. > Actually I migrated from Mozilla MUAs to Evolution years ago. I tested > Kmail, but experienced way to many issues. Can confirm. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... 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Mon, 05 Aug 2019 09:40:11 +0200 Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2019 09:40:10 +0200 From: Polytropon To: "Burt, Chris" Cc: "questions@FreeBSD.org" Subject: Re: EDN log in Message-Id: <20190805094010.18aedb5a.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:7eefgPAFnkOzHz6xHwfTFJrtgHs/us6hJ4PIbh74b9rlGoL+ze0 bTJKH21nrtSTGVB3xC0N58nJltCpFYLFaFi3hmBUsjtD309PAqeiYY+ctJZigd93GT38HlC pMRdsiJv4ASH23lZzi0vG316iqTxAmP0hvOvCOdoqtgBgO/nyqWofidLTp5zZS++ec7XQo9 k2Q+2BI+MRwKBpyhzUuow== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:7iwDEInxhvE=:WqJd9jt/Cnlrv6kmCnMNZT SWtVzdYd+LB9xkApTXl/nc5yLO8W75gGyl3l6oV33ZSxDBGYwcSY3InisyS/NXfDlHH3wcdgS ZtcMaoB54PtSiH3eA8201V/DEtRHmb77ZWjDGT5B6XRAeKGad07AWYRRlKNcPn/nTL4nN8XIq RorAynIytwN+B0SwmTxQNVsRVi+HodgzhwABhzc8PAJsLj7R6E8HFSC0ybVALKGVXUORIvdwu 9MXK2144mnOYFdgD/WXh1n819rMhk0vAovYm8bewu46w2/Llx5iZmlZsG5RSTeB7mXdJjfEwF /XbZwCN8T8xV82ofESjlGdTFz/gEZ7FgFDKU+mWMktcql495uXhX3AVmOt0CyxPTsmg2fmUvY C+CFlustxWR88TXJZtXMorUMb/2gh4oh3FsDX/JsRGpPP+Wa1vCFfvkQdhjxVz/jrj/HW5i0E upSlR/W8f38vrIYE2IG8GsVCkXV6CWBDu9IT1qd8+vxwdzgc5ha/5aluYvb4ngIp8Ksa3sU+a UD5OX7+3EQ1W0CMLPt3zjAWpuGUi8wJbjm9vq9o9Wh3wLKW2Qukb5WLjo2wpLg7h+EaJxKBYj sdwOwr95xtpZx88N0XzSJamYNC6Lrzidx6gp2TWfuc9wUNnVrORtRKMAjEH/pcRivl54dO+w9 5FwJdlnW9MB21DDRHlGSUHugqR8/nw4QHAxPzPNTClWItYljcj5fy7ewa7l6xQmCz5GkjDgbr M79hnReIy5J4QNwwBJbjPT9W0CjFUgRKSUAh3oUta7nxH1TwWd86h+0woRY= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4628nT6TDCz4LFs X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; 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IP_SCORE(0.60)[ip: (2.12), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.44), asn: 8560(2.30), country: DE(-0.01)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2019 07:40:32 -0000 On Mon, 5 Aug 2019 07:31:43 +0000, Burt, Chris wrote: > Hello guys, > > Can you advise why my log into ssh d214157@assurance.tcxf.in.telstra.com.au does not take me to the TID jump box. But still lets me log in. What program are you supposed to use? Is it installed on the system you're loogin into? Usually after login, just a shell is started, no automatic program start, except there is something in your shell's login file (.login for the C shell, FreeBSD's default interactive shell). If you know the program's name, can you call it manually? And: What is a "TID jump box"? > > fn N2913807R > fn: Command not found. What is "fn"? Is it the program's name? It it is, it seems that the program either isn't installed, or needs to be called from an explicit path... Hard to help without more detailed information. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Aug 5 09:14:26 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5FC1BE6D5 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2019 09:14:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic303-19.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic303-19.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.178.200]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 462Bss6WH7z4QJM for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2019 09:14:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: rNkwxo8VM1lXx1Yn8tdBFtpv2EyF2Ie3ZnBvP1Vp0DMxUAIpBc5OIVBwA2oSIaj L6WvcChlmugNE5qwtd_m4gCbwPqZVbig_THgk4Gojyrx2zpmIgrCxkNfSq51mOL2xCDx.xXHOSw. I6AHosQ4MEeBxSulqsaBReEGIhnSsdp46JY4FGFerXi.F9uVU7ppONQsJtv4HO0.ekan5.oKgsny 7fqUyD5wZb6cieRcTS33Fb9qVRTRm9zaBH5ZOSIXPDKFvG0cAmR.LfIA60FvB9Eix0HYYj3qYgP7 Yek9ls9qyrRHTiVoVPBWkTsIW3CKhptn4udXzGhafjmKbFxKw3aZije1OS_LQD2mnk0q8uO7nwyJ e8766ofbmN3Z9qU_ncsVeg3.INkNNShVBLvQOnpg50Ntc9CBARKFE2qeQZ1G9ImgBwcaCieDgrZL OEvbCX8jmSgmPZxcx.dFyAfZg0iJYPrt.oz1uAAHoW.o.m5FzL.Z3ecXR4vkrqi.fc2vkIlVOUjd QbZeTfvKAS.uMIf0Z5fF.zTgtTVsKRo3B_.jtQJvWJtdb5sqbqi1uMALtwGD_jLlDcmuzCGQpEzW dtM9LJbwfs.bBlJGJ_8SyNACryxKwtXX_0idgCVZY_4JBBe8i8zFJC9VXY7nlSfLrNCVizvzEbkL cJPFXgHJ6QloPfzDf6jnOrg97DDHOmmtybSxjAL.uKnOMx.9Am8V9SeOnzoTP70gnfTCWh7tExNP RZX3416zNvVWsA6x_SctHmiBdNwUbcRRrgFJ9LaoSwV0aIfhsgjA.g76Vkt4dowUOhYhYoJitXiG kNT5Eq99uJwQssn19kyrALlF2IpqfOwUvBMYUL1ClU2sva26XxWntQ7kVn.x_NsGMgWhcTCNPC0d h916ztx4YsgMxKe.xKtCZpsb_FEWMitqADU0LmdxH2sJdjAMjhVOfqXY1IEa_LpnxMgoTvJlu_Yd .dXZvuVj76uzwtMMVpaykqVB9SQuyphvhZ_kAxC9dbxTXEkB4dFBl0X1vWs_tDf6ES4Ohkse4Z4T 0BGbthQF.F_r9pgkndDXUXm5N.pq26P3cT60Q_pJzHES6g_isbkpG_NU3QRkAuKQvNM9EUeGNuig Sz0ql82Lg0e7eaqAWsxwzMYcDpNmLEBQH5m.Be0Q68kZMOk4jpd3K6Bs5C_vTmbYV1pL9xtpS8Ca ct70UNx9GgcYnLl5XF5O5NJ7K7g0BeyyaW5adXL7jm2uGS0SKN_7VVKJnQ7LYRbtv1UVtX6mLvAg WtAb6Iw2FAro- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic303.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 5 Aug 2019 09:14:24 +0000 Received: by smtp430.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 40a9b8e74287c72e9aff0c5a84ef23c8; Mon, 05 Aug 2019 09:14:22 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2019 11:14:23 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: thunderbird in German? Message-ID: <20190805111423.012d4fa3@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20190805110706.1b21e528@archlinux> References: <87o91bw4mx.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190731012754.3783a859.freebsd@edvax.de> <878ssc5v3x.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190802060356.eebda021.freebsd@edvax.de> <87tvaz8gkn.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190802213025.884985d57dbfd7bf20ae4cd5@sohara.org> <87lfw9bxeb.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190804093710.66948e68@archlinux> <20190805071120.c258204a.freebsd@edvax.de> <20190805110706.1b21e528@archlinux> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 462Bss6WH7z4QJM X-Spamd-Bar: ++ X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.34 / 15.00]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (3.96), ipnet: 77.238.176.0/22(2.24), asn: 34010(1.77), country: GB(-0.08)]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.97)[0.972,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.86)[0.856,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[200.178.238.77.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[200.178.238.77.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2019 09:14:27 -0000 Oops, the lines of the script were wrapped by accident. [rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ cat /usr/local/bin/window2unhide #!/bin/dash # window2unhide 2017-08-25 Ralf Mardorf # To configure window2unhide you could use /etc/profile.d/window2unhide.sh # # values of the wanted x and y position of the window # export WINDOW2UNHIDE_X_POS=hold # export WINDOW2UNHIDE_Y_POS=141 # # delay required to ensure that a launched application's window is active # export WINDOW2UNHIDE_SLEEP=1 # # values to eliminate x and y drift of the window # this fix is needed for all windows # export WINDOW2UNHIDE_X_FIX=2 # export WINDOW2UNHIDE_Y_FIX=54 # # offset required to eliminate x and y drift of the window if x and/or y do/does not change # this offset is needed for windows that open under the top panel # but its unfavorable for windows that don't open under the top panel # export WINDOW2UNHIDE_X_OFF=1 # export WINDOW2UNHIDE_Y_OFF=25 unhide_window () { # values of the wanted x and y position of the window case $WINDOW2UNHIDE_X_POS in ""|hold) WINDOW2UNHIDE_X_POS=$X ;; esac case $WINDOW2UNHIDE_Y_POS in "") WINDOW2UNHIDE_Y_POS=141 ;; hold) WINDOW2UNHIDE_Y_POS=$Y ;; esac # value to eliminate x drift of the window case $WINDOW2UNHIDE_X_FIX in "") WINDOW2UNHIDE_X_FIX=2 ;; esac # calculate value for x position of the window... case $WINDOW2UNHIDE_X_POS in $X) # ...if the x position doesn't change subtract the value to eliminate x drift and add an offset case $WINDOW2UNHIDE_X_OFF in "") WINDOW2UNHIDE_X_OFF=1 ;; esac X_POS=$(expr $WINDOW2UNHIDE_X_POS - $WINDOW2UNHIDE_X_FIX + $WINDOW2UNHIDE_X_OFF) ;; *) # ...if the x position does change subtract the value to eliminate x drift X_POS=$(expr $WINDOW2UNHIDE_X_POS - $WINDOW2UNHIDE_X_FIX) ;; esac # value to eliminate y drift of the window case $WINDOW2UNHIDE_Y_FIX in "") WINDOW2UNHIDE_Y_FIX=54 ;; esac # calculate value for y position of the window... case $WINDOW2UNHIDE_Y_POS in $Y) # ...if the y position doesn't change subtract the value to eliminate y drift and add an offset case $WINDOW2UNHIDE_Y_OFF in "") WINDOW2UNHIDE_Y_OFF=25 ;; esac Y_POS=$(expr $WINDOW2UNHIDE_Y_POS - $WINDOW2UNHIDE_Y_FIX + $WINDOW2UNHIDE_Y_OFF) ;; *) # ...if the x position does change subtract the value to eliminate x drift Y_POS=$(expr $WINDOW2UNHIDE_Y_POS - $WINDOW2UNHIDE_Y_FIX) ;; esac # move the window to new position wmctrl -i -r $WINDOW -b remove,maximized_vert,maximized_horz wmctrl -i -r $WINDOW -e "0,$X_POS,$Y_POS,$WIDTH,$HEIGHT" } case $1 in "") # unhide active window eval $(xdotool getwindowgeometry --shell $(xdotool getactivewindow)) unhide_window ;; *) # launch an application and unhide its window case $WINDOW2UNHIDE_SLEEP in "") WINDOW2UNHIDE_SLEEP=1 ;; esac $@ & sleep $WINDOW2UNHIDE_SLEEP # ensure that the window of the launched application... eval $(xdotool getwindowgeometry --shell $(xdotool getactivewindow)) wmctrl -l | grep $(printf '%x\n' $WINDOW) | grep -qi $1 # ...is the active window case $? in 0) unhide_window ;; esac ;; esac exit From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Aug 5 09:17:15 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93D1DBE855 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2019 09:17:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic311-30.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic311-30.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.176.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 462Bx63NPFz4QQP for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2019 09:17:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: N0Ppwj8VM1na3KchVTaYwZ8hQlzlhc1_tnb2JOxhFEfcitllNaVBUpi5oN64Wao FfO4gA5Rv1vShMuz.OPUuLkU4yDUCzjOUy22KD0LiRUmVIsfYodUorcpFhRO40UGsccbQnkxTW3u 7SpFlGUSIhorIH9CB7TfQYvS8u0JDV91RYj9OJKJCaRLKBdguql_cKOlfbmG5x2iG2V84twPySnV V6cIxICV6zyOo1.TAeD2ckA3UNk6KJVrfarY3VngmWE1nwtBPEvA3KElwscuHlKek89aoP7StToe MS2DDQi.rrYRxf82gNc2yVTvAuVFJnmR9MdhYAZrE5_ZAb7wOaG7S1uVKd8V2CDwjLjcZgE2qafq CR.l2ru5Vq2UYNsnEQD9.JWOfDOxwnsBfbuYyvbqSevRxTizMBHemDMJULcVJ_z9NPuDLzZOKwxQ DlRVMGCFHFbzNZ0MT5otShQGbAaDovTH2BAoKIaf0bgGqHhVrzLPX9wtksO_Yy3U5YdwRBHQg24j jAElF5z6TQXJk3hjNeBh9rzhUybQpmeOAvGXfuonVFNHNSyxvTTaJFvZmmEY2HPTE9N3r7uWS1iM Jpc2xUTpgZNteD4wxhGYvmSscEIYtHnQuAkvDwJMkZw0JNaBH0jcUpzzsm.8.DgzbzUNZKMI31pS r0G3FKr.kdDy6sHoZqqD.wkHbm4l1rzkfb_vXU0uNC4sChGVVKBQho2CnA964gsJ1iGsmIKMbDCz VA1VKxk3vUvExkz3TJ5qUmUcE.HFdNJgDnJSEEi9MQTA.dMmh4ij7tS7CkzD9jVfIDgADXfCgXEl qXNm97Dm.cz1zuHaJbnBfLTXMdwM_D18HiWH.ijMXY7NDJxjvGy79jS_eWQdHxOGApMxBUh6g2Ie DUYooUKK4SE3Lz94MqDRdCaKPZByGQCSfwBXW6R7ltw0ZivPQ58wUxXw.je8s4NSHjMNjyN_hr9W EoLifMJjjtJ.G0tQj.K59boqmqQIn_Zr4QZiOSAPq1AcYI1aEGTeSuYEjLB_9XAcytY7s4fWhFaK PBo2VM.LokvoecNQOAngVq6s5cfVTDcoelBJWADXfzV7P2paktoU3wEbEUPYMOEnIP1i4poH2e.H pjv_EuRWXcpB6a5x.l9kUPzQUyIjlevhaECSyPpxWFlv_RQGPfasg4OsVQHn7f8dSxJuEjngaz9P NAGBwNcfSnwx5XGRBSQvF44QmkZWqdGJ5HdNrYSgGRBXBaT0bCAjFzNFeyAP_LFx8L4c4mdg0kOk II_bdnqMgQTofKX6BBWHy8eWrb1LpKOfIY3Hk2EcupczN Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic311.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 5 Aug 2019 09:17:11 +0000 Received: by smtp419.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID c150b43e2f9bfc33ed43a6946e3eb8ca; Mon, 05 Aug 2019 09:07:05 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2019 11:07:06 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: thunderbird in German? Message-ID: <20190805110706.1b21e528@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20190805071120.c258204a.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <87o91bw4mx.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190731012754.3783a859.freebsd@edvax.de> <878ssc5v3x.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190802060356.eebda021.freebsd@edvax.de> <87tvaz8gkn.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190802213025.884985d57dbfd7bf20ae4cd5@sohara.org> <87lfw9bxeb.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190804093710.66948e68@archlinux> <20190805071120.c258204a.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 462Bx63NPFz4QQP X-Spamd-Bar: +++++++ X-Spamd-Result: default: False [7.00 / 15.00]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(0.00)[rocketmail.com,reject]; SEM_URIBL(3.50)[ubuntu.com.uribl.spameatingmonkey.net]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (6.93), ipnet: 77.238.176.0/22(2.24), asn: 34010(1.77), country: GB(-0.08)]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(0.00)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.99)[0.994,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(1.00)[0.998,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[162.176.238.77.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[162.176.238.77.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2019 09:17:15 -0000 Hi, it's too funny that a thread about enabling translations for a Mozilla MUA excesses to a general discussion about development nowadays and it's even more funny that this kind of discussion happens on a lot of mailing lists (for example [1]). Off-list a subscriber asked why GTK and Qt do look ugly. The problem is that a lot of people who maintained good themes discontinued those themes, since they can't spend the time to rework the complete theme with each micro update of Qt and GTK. I found a theme for GTK2 and GTK3 that is comparable to the old Adwaita GTK2 theme, so all GTK apps look more or less like GTK2 apps, while the new Adwaita theme makes all GTK apps look like GTK3 apps, even faking the look of GTK3 widget options GTK2 doesn't have. The theme I found is called arc-theme, but I still had to edit the theme, for my taste it's not good by default, but at least most of the work already is done by the maintainer of the theme. I don't use a desktop environment, I'm just using a window manager and I stay with X, while on Linux there are tendencies to migrate to Wayland. For Qt3, Qt4 and Qt5 different "Troll"tech configurations are required, to go into details is off-topic and my time frame doesn't allow to do so. Perhaps helpful, Qt5 requires a plugin: https://qt5ct.sourceforge.net If somebody should use GNOME apps, https://github.com/PCMan/gtk3-nocsd might be helpful to keep some consistency with non-GNOME apps. On Mon, 5 Aug 2019 06:47:03 +0200, Polytropon wrote: >Alt+left click A reason why I migrated from jwm to openbox. Actually I don't use it very often, since I've written a script [2] that does move windows that hide the title bar under the top panel, which was most of the times the reason to move windows by Alt+left_mouse_button for me. On Mon, 5 Aug 2019 06:47:03 +0200, Polytropon wrote: >tiling window manager as well as some desktop environments could become a PITA, if a parent window opens a child window, so the "are you sure to continue request" window could be invisible, since they don't follow some freedesktop or whatsoever else rules. >On Sun, 04 Aug 2019 02:07:00 +0200, hw wrote: >> So I don't understand how anyone can put up with the useless crap you >> have to tap on while you can't see anything and achieve nothing. I'm using an iPad Pro 12.9" 3rd gen with an Apple Pencil 2nd gen. What graphic tablet with or without build-in monitor for FreeBSD, Linux or any other desktop PC can hold a candle on the desktop, let alone when drawing in nature? I'm doing almost everything with a desktop PC, but even for music productions I'm doing most of the work on the iPad nowadays. My impression is that the community of computer users who prefer desktop PCs for almost everything, but migrating for graphic and music to iPads (for good reasons not migrating to Android or other tablets) is increasing rapidly. On Mon, 5 Aug 2019 07:11:20 +0200, Polytropon wrote: >That is an important thought! > >As Gtk2 probably will EOL just like Gtk (1) did, newer toolkit >versions _might_ tie much stronger into Linux infrastructures >than the current version does, and porting them to FreeBSD might >cause trouble because of missing kernel interfaces or library >functions. Let alone that they already cause issues on Linux machines, especially apps that started the migration from GTK2 to GTK3, the reason why the GTK3 port of Claws is unusable. (To the subscriber who replied off-list: Claws GTK2 is not experimental, its GTK3 port is experiemntal) FWIW non-GUI apps are not necessarily better than some silly burger menu GNOME apps: On Wed, 31 Jul 2019 12:12:26 +0200, an Ubuntu users mailing list subscriber wrote: >To quote an anonymous wit: >=C2=AB >Hey, don't dismiss Vim. I've been using Vim for about 3 years now. > >Mostly because I can't figure out how to exit... >=C2=BB Regards, Ralf [1] The attitude that failure isn't the fault of the developers of brand-new software, but the fault of all the developers of apps that are used since decades, if they don't rewrite their apps to fit to the brand-new software: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2019-July/297903.html "We" change the underlying infrastructure, so "we" are breaking everything good and stable (but actually it anyway isn't "good" in the first place) and we do not care. It's the duty of other to fix the issues "we" cause. Wayland is not the first change by people with this attitude, within the last decade it happened several times and some things were never fixed, even not after ten years. [2] [rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ cat /usr/local/bin/window2unhide=20 #!/bin/dash # window2unhide 2017-08-25 Ralf Mardorf # To configure window2unhide you could use /etc/profile.d/window2unhide.sh # # values of the wanted x and y position of the window # export WINDOW2UNHIDE_X_POS=3Dhold # export WINDOW2UNHIDE_Y_POS=3D141 # # delay required to ensure that a launched application's window is active # export WINDOW2UNHIDE_SLEEP=3D1 # # values to eliminate x and y drift of the window # this fix is needed for all windows # export WINDOW2UNHIDE_X_FIX=3D2 # export WINDOW2UNHIDE_Y_FIX=3D54 # # offset required to eliminate x and y drift of the window if x and/or y do/does not change # this offset is needed for windows that open under the top panel # but its unfavorable for windows that don't open under the top panel # export WINDOW2UNHIDE_X_OFF=3D1 # export WINDOW2UNHIDE_Y_OFF=3D25 unhide_window () { # values of the wanted x and y position of the window case $WINDOW2UNHIDE_X_POS in ""|hold) WINDOW2UNHIDE_X_POS=3D$X ;; esac case $WINDOW2UNHIDE_Y_POS in "") WINDOW2UNHIDE_Y_POS=3D141 ;; hold) WINDOW2UNHIDE_Y_POS=3D$Y ;; esac # value to eliminate x drift of the window case $WINDOW2UNHIDE_X_FIX in "") WINDOW2UNHIDE_X_FIX=3D2 ;; esac # calculate value for x position of the window... case $WINDOW2UNHIDE_X_POS in $X) # ...if the x position doesn't change subtract the value to eliminate x drift and add an offset case $WINDOW2UNHIDE_X_OFF in "")=20 WINDOW2UNHIDE_X_OFF=3D1 ;; esac X_POS=3D$(expr $WINDOW2UNHIDE_X_POS - $WINDOW2UNHIDE_X_FIX + $WINDOW2UNHIDE_X_OFF) ;; *) # ...if the x position does change subtract the value to eliminate x drift X_POS=3D$(expr $WINDOW2UNHIDE_X_POS - $WINDOW2UNHIDE_X_FIX) ;; esac # value to eliminate y drift of the window case $WINDOW2UNHIDE_Y_FIX in "") WINDOW2UNHIDE_Y_FIX=3D54 ;; esac # calculate value for y position of the window... case $WINDOW2UNHIDE_Y_POS in $Y) # ...if the y position doesn't change subtract the value to eliminate y drift and add an offset case $WINDOW2UNHIDE_Y_OFF in "") WINDOW2UNHIDE_Y_OFF=3D25 ;; esac Y_POS=3D$(expr $WINDOW2UNHIDE_Y_POS - $WINDOW2UNHIDE_Y_FIX + $WINDOW2UNHIDE_Y_OFF) ;; *) # ...if the x position does change subtract the value to eliminate x drift Y_POS=3D$(expr $WINDOW2UNHIDE_Y_POS - $WINDOW2UNHIDE_Y_FIX) ;; esac # move the window to new position wmctrl -i -r $WINDOW -b remove,maximized_vert,maximized_horz wmctrl -i -r $WINDOW -e "0,$X_POS,$Y_POS,$WIDTH,$HEIGHT" } case $1 in "") # unhide active window eval $(xdotool getwindowgeometry --shell $(xdotool getactivewindow)) unhide_window ;; *) # launch an application and unhide its window case $WINDOW2UNHIDE_SLEEP in "") WINDOW2UNHIDE_SLEEP=3D1 ;; esac $@ & sleep $WINDOW2UNHIDE_SLEEP # ensure that the window of the launched application... eval $(xdotool getwindowgeometry --shell $(xdotool getactivewindow)) wmctrl -l | grep $(printf '%x\n' $WINDOW) | grep -qi $1 # ...is the active window case $? in 0) unhide_window ;; esac ;; esac exit From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Aug 5 09:21:12 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C875BBEA55 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2019 09:21:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic307-53.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic307-53.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [87.248.110.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 462C1g544Mz4QrD for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2019 09:21:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: e3MxgwcVM1k4q4SR1r9nRlHHHwrhbopcpHiF7jCbpAigOYEy6oFi8ZRz0xD8lUT WKtH.CIHYbxUpYlzgyxC5xPZLjNjf5gUIyW9uPtow5xa5SpMdF99JgPbtQPHuolFUh_UkxEoad4H UynuYcMmUZpDyl.qVlxDIYR5gPXxtacLZI40AI0aJGRUsZbaITRr4PKEx14BD0LWDVfNx9OhU3ir uy4RbrRvi0WEjCJZQR7ixb4VQv82VB2fhhBX3qWWE8f7RRLh5dGbJ9cwRSYvzoWFquHJXwZKjqRV aG68D5dRHirZkUF403A8dNXnIvIb1iAkZrHxtgB.Mk7QwjH4eSpaBMiu3mI5OYW_h6LZtTCntP0k RFiMPyuqdPnPvARIynjbJMMuiBRYprYDfakpXrcsEKNOhrWP_I3J.ob1MSdzCFWT3xjq03zRRAFV hN9TVPrQPVHY_mcWS7ev79XPPvph_qcvxLeA2Q12ioP2k_zlo3zLIcSW0AY49sXsAR1ZMTSVzidj an9aYNMJWKMDV3YheUsPD5IhbBfGKa8KD0UrNVTWuTzGTmNCqYikc8.A54X3XSKE_IZh48FRGZr0 HWEcLYn3wTq__H0i9nhV117zXnTyufxmqEPTgsUthvCWsHdqUgvkYFtJ2dg8TpdfaEzpXMF02zOW _8fckSS3FnVxNP2mBqqQEYwyPcCrJWK85JJxXIZStPhDTPLXfB1n8D0vACpNy.nB_AtsOAQT7slw t9IHNUf.3PiAfCQQ1qIjlrl3DQ.WfjdqlWD0COSGMlMZmrPO9BLRaF9ziQz0oOpy7lZZ8GzjHw4A vt.eJMTzRIJBa9HGuHbf9X7IqjslkUn5aK9MNHtYjTXtip.oocpwQ9R4v69mewAy08CPqvR47HiT yHRru8tXhp1uQ4fALblXyb5dSKTL8DLGUMNovoJtx5m4ei6uwS7qObmAiW1eybaw6k0sjTd1TUVp M9U1SoyfoEM2REoUQpYMymNxRoDWIkMQaJmQFrLK5QqM4i7aXSdEbAXDdKPiPcxDKtyWDnyAV1Sw sWM83JO6OZPsy8K9rOpxh.w.aOkR4nbpZ0spAxxSSsYj4MZ1sOlb_wUvxgj8AICzLpkjSz0LKk34 70QCzZki9GlUmvX6oVs1nZ8iKTRmdRA7I4dni718lSj.De6Bp1uCNpDqNdIHrSTFWN7LWJaaA0oT ehXAfraHSeHsMiTMC1WZQ07qabffXN6Nx3aIZKuTkYQOTf2LkYn7Meo2LLuvxnikPE_rb4773skX 89_DxWh3xLBGA8w4vTnwj Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic307.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 5 Aug 2019 09:21:09 +0000 Received: by smtp421.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID a2c7a6e44b09e94f75512e58a8cb4566; Mon, 05 Aug 2019 09:21:05 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2019 11:21:07 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: thunderbird in German? Message-ID: <20190805112107.0a5f94ce@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20190805110706.1b21e528@archlinux> References: <87o91bw4mx.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190731012754.3783a859.freebsd@edvax.de> <878ssc5v3x.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190802060356.eebda021.freebsd@edvax.de> <87tvaz8gkn.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190802213025.884985d57dbfd7bf20ae4cd5@sohara.org> <87lfw9bxeb.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190804093710.66948e68@archlinux> <20190805071120.c258204a.freebsd@edvax.de> <20190805110706.1b21e528@archlinux> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 462C1g544Mz4QrD X-Spamd-Bar: ++ X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.37 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.89)[0.885,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[30.110.248.87.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.97)[0.973,0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (3.61), ipnet: 87.248.110.0/24(2.51), asn: 34010(1.77), country: GB(-0.08)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:87.248.110.0/24, country:GB]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2019 09:21:12 -0000 On Mon, 5 Aug 2019 11:07:06 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: >https://qt5ct.sourceforge.net Oops, this is a broken link, the current link seems to be https://sourceforge.net/projects/qt5ct/ . From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Aug 5 11:34:50 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEF3EC109E for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2019 11:34:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic305-19.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic305-19.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.177.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 462Fzq5WTSz4XlT for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2019 11:34:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: jqnFebcVM1lt.ErP41SvfbxglEB5zLUrsvl8_qWU_6_Z_nqlvKxZpI2Rjorp59q _5y5_rCWewYm5v9eQtl.wQiGfpCq4_nX19jnJu4c6DygVvLBAf3zh6bUDCbRyoPBohM2y5c.DtRD 6BF8b2X6Hpfki47wfV.JVlUIXvqv4eRSPVQZ5T2pPNbqCKvpGHO0vcziSA0uW1.sAvSOd4.cgHMG ruv.vZRHQlD5Ghc5n.i5XOwD1GYBn5JhGWDHTrs2odpQpOvx7fa9GIETW_2QZJa7284TV43lzSOy eB1eaJb0NqGlowcaZoTyd2llP0ZluKBWRCx3u3CGSsEOVgETgvRLpCkXbLmU_rQFBY881H23zqSg Fp5xOU7v_8xmQhB8r1a3Nv79V92g1jmazjE8pU1f51DIoWc0ctwl0HsvWQVM9ChoVEENYAqFzrU7 a7QAK4ftOncMeJA6Pvx_GQ4E6ewPzTsVUwXiekZ_leP.5BTTS18yYB2jbi0xIrtGx_SG4PG9pKk5 _MFpbwE0LHDuzkANBgw3LNIWOmIaRhs8Ab6EPqWwCAK7jlAtcHn8Iq5jXDfW.Mjw0Uhgske3TvYh omkzEat9TrHKflI12JML54cwkAkcsOYsLmQ2zSMmu6OTGBTiXnURxQd6yIhSO23StT7V_9XmzI1D 4m7k6mJumfRxtLGFLXR5.LqSi3tgHphdYv97eeZUtUJFnQwSQZ86o6QsxNBpy_F_Y9ooEeeXk_iE Jve2g_u4nGMirqd5IOliZXrwiIAa2ZmauzJVWYy9bABhuzEZ1qGCkdHu3wwIY30UPUsMH.75knOQ h47Ur4wnLBapvSd9PZ6bZTJ2_.d7yHhmvlyJxhmdDZpabKRXSraf8I5bNjFck47PEivs6EV2VWAh pZ19eGU4zV8wpP.a9Wg_Xp4RHaXCptKOE0yPnKNPsxRnWUPHox1GarSWuiwGAST55SAQRJ5eo6IW ll1_uPk_uGw6fM4jRjIikHzI2Wtz9T9HLDmWCQZY4CKDrYXOTAp3dugOPxQgqa0R9VsZMgjZJIDl tX8J9uKd9UKdvA.xHqaVbOaJ5k2VR_HVEqAYRwCRijEEvLHVY.UTBPrpItFwP5hwCdQ0b4y4Em1r ZrF5RHX6oo51SEXjE7rE6tgbOdzHzkZA1MgtKk7lxfNG0TZyMyopThTZwylN5v2VMdmhVVMdsqvY QJqegV22BYwOXoU56Hj5HDm1_s0bItfKKCGG0tdLoqyUopriAsEad0i53V5jmHA6OO483CRMO7Dq Ku2O6hqla7ljHjw-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic305.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 5 Aug 2019 11:34:44 +0000 Received: by smtp416.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 75e5ba799092333bb724e386ae0b314a; Mon, 05 Aug 2019 11:34:40 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2019 13:34:41 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: thunderbird in German? Message-ID: <20190805133441.76088a3f@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20190805071120.c258204a.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <87o91bw4mx.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190731012754.3783a859.freebsd@edvax.de> <878ssc5v3x.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190802060356.eebda021.freebsd@edvax.de> <87tvaz8gkn.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190802213025.884985d57dbfd7bf20ae4cd5@sohara.org> <87lfw9bxeb.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190804093710.66948e68@archlinux> <20190805071120.c258204a.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 462Fzq5WTSz4XlT X-Spamd-Bar: ++ X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.39 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.90)[0.895,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[81.177.238.77.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.98)[0.984,0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (6.19), ipnet: 77.238.176.0/22(2.24), asn: 34010(1.77), country: GB(-0.08)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2019 11:34:51 -0000 On Mon, 5 Aug 2019 07:11:20 +0200, Polytropon wrote: >> Btw. way closer to Thunderbird features is Evolution. Claws and >> Sylpheed are lightweight, but might miss features one or the other >> user might need. > >That's why it's important to evaluate beforehand which features are >needed by the users. Lightweight doesn't always mean usable _in a >specific setting_, but it _could_ be, depending on the features >needed. And you're right that Evolution is hardly "lightweight", >but more like Thunderbird in terms of provided features. Today I got rid of several Evolution issues. I suspect the culprit that Evolution was buggy after closing and upgrading evolution is related to the fact, that Evolution does not terminate all processes after closing it. Today I killed evolution related processes before launching it again. [rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ evolution (evolution-alarm-notify:10419): GLib-GIO-WARNING **: 13:17:49.865: Your application did not unregister from D-Bus before destruction. Consider using g_application_run(). Error sending IPC message: Broken pipe Error sending IPC message: Broken pipe Error sending IPC message: Broken pipe Error sending IPC message: Broken pipe Error sending IPC message: Broken pipe (evolution:10413): GLib-GIO-WARNING **: 13:18:30.109: Your application did not unregister from D-Bus before destruction. Consider using g_application_run(). [rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ ps aux | grep evolution rocketm+ 8640 0.0 0.3 404416 26532 ? Ssl 12:28 0:00 /usr/lib/evolution-source-registry rocketm+ 8646 0.0 0.7 661092 57804 ? Sl 12:28 0:00 /usr/lib/evolution-data-server/evolution-alarm-notify rocketm+ 8653 0.0 0.3 924600 30576 ? Ssl 12:28 0:00 /usr/lib/evolution-calendar-factory rocketm+ 8662 0.0 0.3 691876 28336 ? Ssl 12:28 0:00 /usr/lib/evolution-addressbook-factory rocketm+ 10546 0.0 0.0 7556 2352 pts/1 S+ 13:18 0:00 grep evolution [rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ pkill -9 evolution [rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ ps aux | grep evolution rocketm+ 10549 0.0 0.0 7556 2372 pts/1 S+ 13:18 0:00 grep evolution [rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ Lightweight apps don't run several processes. [rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ ps aux | grep -eclaws -esylp rocketm+ 10551 3.2 2.3 282748 190260 ? S 13:19 0:13 claws-mail rocketm+ 10657 0.0 0.0 8508 3652 ? S 13:19 0:00 /bin/sh /usr/local/bin/chuser sylpheed rocketm+ 10659 0.2 0.3 111564 29404 ? S 13:19 0:01 gksudo -u chuser sylpheed root 10660 0.0 0.0 34464 6608 ? Ss 13:19 0:00 /usr/bin/sudo -H -S -p GNOME_SUDO_PASS -u chuser -- sylpheed chuser 10686 0.0 0.4 112380 38300 ? S 13:19 0:00 sylpheed rocketm+ 10720 0.0 0.0 7424 2304 pts/0 R+ 13:26 0:00 grep -eclaws -esylp [rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ ps -T -p 10551 PID SPID TTY TIME CMD 10551 10551 ? 00:00:14 claws-mail [rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ ps -T -p 10686 PID SPID TTY TIME CMD 10686 10686 ? 00:00:00 sylpheed It does look a little bit confusing, because I run sylpheed as another user. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Aug 6 08:55:30 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06117BCE32; Tue, 6 Aug 2019 08:55:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com) Received: from out2-4.antispamcloud.com (out2-4.antispamcloud.com [185.201.17.4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 462pPW1p9kz3LFs; Tue, 6 Aug 2019 08:55:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com) Received: from srv31.niagahoster.com ([153.92.8.106]) by mx61.antispamcloud.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1huvFa-0005G8-RA; Tue, 06 Aug 2019 10:55:24 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sumeritec.com; s=default; 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ASN(0.00)[asn:49544, ipnet:185.201.17.0/24, country:NL]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2019 08:55:30 -0000 Hi, for testing purpose, I did the following. Start a thread, initialise a mutex in a global variable, lock the mutex and wait in that thread. Wait in the main program until above's thread waits and cancel it. Clean up behind the cancelled thread but leave intentional the mutex locked. I would have expected now to get an error like 'EOWNERDEAD' doing operations with that mutex. But I get 'EBUSY' as the error. Of course, the program is not able to do any thing with that mutex. Where is the misunderstanding? Erich From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Aug 7 00:44:45 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D665AB7D17 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 00:44:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lee@adminart.net) Received: from mo6-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de (mo6-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de [IPv6:2a01:238:20a:202:5300::7]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "*.smtp.rzone.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 463CSr31Wxz3yGV for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 00:44:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lee@adminart.net) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1565138681; s=strato-dkim-0002; d=adminart.net; h=References:Message-ID:Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From: X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH:From:Subject:Sender; bh=zYGfPpz1JCqwpMhXuGxemVTKX+selKLa/qPNNfDHtEs=; b=T6nZxgDfnD/KIN9yckHI+nKpYTEWQqwdGUFpixeMhY78yE5hcPH1/ytsbQld9VoqeG XEl2fMnUrvZvgLgAWs/YTIZbjiZUVKAnnbGX0XEax03i0oQSEwXMyw9rpzRvYBcL7B0T eYIablO4MVor2uOKj8xXQ50Jd4bI4c1L8p5FLf1mnTdDP8PmOOwWKdqNnwc/ofX6wdv6 NW7czbF+5AuIPwaB2axHv/KK4a9mHi1n0AtvBgW9GcA6IjjSwG1B18DzvoJJRRw+Tuu6 aezH6ykf8pWkgZexOjqPln45W0OmJY5WeYJHnmHt3HSlFlEjSp+/jOj1Oxl2YNtLYac5 EQcw== X-RZG-AUTH: ":O2kGeEG7b/pS1FS4THaxjVF9w0vVgfQ9xGcjwO5WMRo5c+h5ceMqQWZ3yrBp+ARdaXvxIDf7nlw=" X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Received: from himinbjorg.adminart.net by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 44.24 DYNA|AUTH) with ESMTPSA id e0059dv770ifkYw (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (curve secp521r1 with 521 ECDH bits, eq. 15360 bits RSA)) (Client did not present a certificate); Wed, 7 Aug 2019 02:44:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from toy.adminart.net ([192.168.3.55]) by himinbjorg.adminart.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hvA4F-0001Wf-MI; Wed, 07 Aug 2019 02:44:39 +0200 Received: from lee by toy.adminart.net with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hvA4F-0000y6-Jh; Wed, 07 Aug 2019 02:44:39 +0200 From: hw To: Polytropon Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: thunderbird in German? In-Reply-To: <20190805070522.be1fb873.freebsd@edvax.de> (Polytropon's message of "Mon, 5 Aug 2019 07:05:22 +0200") Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 02:28:19 +0200 Organization: my virtual residence Message-ID: <87sgqdq0nw.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <87o91bw4mx.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190731012754.3783a859.freebsd@edvax.de> <878ssc5v3x.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190802053434.6babd0d0.freebsd@edvax.de> <87y30b8h0v.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190803042205.550f5903.freebsd@edvax.de> <87pnllbxp7.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190805070522.be1fb873.freebsd@edvax.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 463CSr31Wxz3yGV X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=adminart.net header.s=strato-dkim-0002 header.b=T6nZxgDf; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of lee@adminart.net has no SPF policy when checking 2a01:238:20a:202:5300::7) smtp.mailfrom=lee@adminart.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[adminart.net:s=strato-dkim-0002]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[adminart.net]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[adminart.net:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.96)[-0.957,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[hw@adminart.net,lee@adminart.net]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[7.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.3.5.2.0.2.0.a.0.2.0.8.3.2.0.1.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6724, ipnet:2a01:238::/32, country:DE]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[hw@adminart.net,lee@adminart.net]; IP_SCORE(-1.94)[ip: (-5.85), ipnet: 2a01:238::/32(-3.40), asn: 6724(-0.45), country: DE(-0.01)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 00:44:45 -0000 Polytropon writes: > On Sun, 04 Aug 2019 02:07:00 +0200, hw wrote: >> Polytropon writes: >> >> > On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 22:10:56 +0200, hw wrote: >> >> Polytropon writes: >> >> >> >> > On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 01:22:42 +0200, hw wrote: >> >> >> Polytropon writes: >> >> >> >> >> [...] >> > While it has been good practice for decades to use -Wall and its >> > equivalents, it doesn't seem to be important anymore. Compile time >> > errors and warnings are irrelevant just as runtime warnings and >> > errors. >> >> My impression is that software is now generally much more stable than it >> used to be. I don't know why, perhaps better tools became available. > > Yes, program stability has improved, especially for web browsers. > But it's more than fair to acknowledge that the complexity of a > web browser is comparable to the complexity of a whole operating > system. Web browsers are evil. >> > You can easily verify this by launching any "modern" Gtk or Qt program >> > from a terminal, say, Firefox, Gimp, and so on. >> >> You mean the messages they're printing and nobody knows what they are >> about? I have written a small program in perl that uses Gtk and it >> prints a message when I quit it. There is no reason for it to do that, >> so what should I do: >> >> >> (in cleanup) (in cleanup) at >> /usr/local/lib/perl/Database.pm line 163 during global destruction. >> >> >> Line 163 disconnects from the database, using the disconnect method of >> DBI. There is no such message in programs without Gtk, doing the same >> thing, using the same source. It seems such messages show up for no >> reason. > > I'm refering to things that seem to signal an error or a condition > that should never appear. Who says that the message I'm getting doesn't? > Here are a few: > > (gimp:3022): GLib-WARNING **: > goption.c:2132: ignoring no-arg, > optional-arg or filename flags (8) on option of type 0 > > (gimp:3022): Gimp-Display-CRITICAL **: > render_image_tile_fault: assertion `tile[4] != NULL' failed > end from FAM server connection > end from FAM server connection > end from FAM server connection > end from FAM server connection > end from FAM server connection > > (gimp:3022): Gtk-CRITICAL **: > IA__gtk_icon_info_load_icon: assertion `icon_info != NULL' failed > end from FAM server connection > end from FAM server connection > > (gimp:3022): Gimp-Display-CRITICAL **: > render_image_tile_fault: assertion `tile[4] != NULL' failed > > (gimp:3022): Gtk-CRITICAL **: > IA__gtk_icon_info_load_icon: assertion `icon_info != NULL' failed > > (gimp:3022): Gimp-Base-WARNING **: > tile ref count balance: 20 > > (process:3532): Gtk-WARNING **: > Locale not supported by C library. > Using the fallback 'C' locale. > > (gimp:4511): Gtk-CRITICAL **: > IA__gtk_icon_info_load_icon: assertion `icon_info != NULL' failed > libpng warning: zero length keyword > libpng warning: Empty language field in iTXt chunk > end from FAM server connection > end from FAM server connection > > A few can be explained (the last one probably refers to a damaged > or nonstandard PNG file), but the others are warnings and "CRITICAL", > where I think this should have been addressed during testing. Do > they still do testing today? :-) I don't know. Did Gimp crash or something? >> > Churning out new versions and new features often seems to be >> > more important that fixing bugs or working against bad decisions. >> > Doing it right for everyone is impossible, I know, but a certain >> > amount of "good old common sense" should be applied more. :-) >> >> These kids don't have that. How could they? > > Need more download brain apps from smartphone. :-) That won't help ... In some way, it's hard to blame them because they never learned how much can be done with 64kB of RAM and how "fast" computers can be. I was gona say you can't really blame them for the total failure of the educational system, but when they can protest against climate change, I have to say they should long ago have protested much more against the poor education they're getting. I suppose they have been told one thing and not the other, so they try to go the easier way ... >> >> > Because it's left to the users to find out how to do "nonstandard" >> >> > things like intending to change the interface language. Because >> >> > all the world only the English always! ;-) >> >> >> >> and right handed, of course >> > >> > Remember that traditional X (and X applications using the XMotif >> > and Xaw / Xaw3d toolkits, if I remember correctly) provides a >> > "/ shaped" mouse pointer (instead of the traditional \ one), and >> > it can be enabled with "xsetroot -cursor_name right_ptr". However, >> > some programs use their own mouse pointer, and it will change >> > as soon as you point into such a window... >> >> That's the same stupid idea as is behind programs insisting on doing >> the job of the window manager by drawing their own decorations. > > Exactly. I don't get that idea anyway. Traditionally on X, you have > programs using different toolkits, and that's okay, because there is > no "one size fits all" kind of eierlegende Wollmilchsau GUI toolkit. > Inconsistent? What is more inconsistent than programs doing with their windows whatever they want rather than what I have configured the WM for to do with /all/ windows alike? It already takes a ridiculous amount of force to prevent seamonkey and firefox from placing their windows off screen where they remain unreachable and making them larger than the screen and such. Thunderbird is probably not any different, but I haven't noticed for I'm forcing all windows since the last time this kind of misbehaving caused trouble. > Sure, but nobody cares. Those who claim that visual consistency is > "needed" are scared today after discovering that it doesn't exist, not > even on Mac (and "Windows" lost GUI consistency decades ago). I don't want all the windows to look the same, that's ugly and boring, and some need to be handled differently than others for things to be usable. > A program's job is _not_ to do what the window manager does. A program > can request to be handled in a different way, for exaple, without > a window decoration (like XMMS MP3 player where it doesn't make sense, > or little utilities in the "system corner" like xconsole, xbiff, > xclock, xload, xcpufreq, etc.). But programs sometimes used their > own ugly white _mouse cursor_ for no reason! Using a specific > mouse cursor is normal for tools like Gimp, xfig, even LibreOffice. > But generic programs? Why? Like emacs using a particular pointer to indicate that it is busy when configured to do so can make sense. If it couldn't do that, it would need to somehow tell the WM that it's busy and the WM would have to change the pointer on some or all windows --- and if it would be done like that rather than emacs changing the pointer, people would say the WM and emacs are bloated. Or are they, or is X11 bloated for allowing to change pointers? >> >> But when you use the trackball with your left hand, [...] >> > >> > That's entirely wrong. You don't use a trackball because it >> > does not exist. Everyone uses a mouse (old people) or taps on >> > the screen (young people). ;-) >> >> Dunno, I've already been way ahead of those tiny tap-screens 35 years >> ago when I used an old black-and-white TV as a display for my computer. >> I could see everything on it, and I could even program the computer >> which made it rather useful, and, imagine that, without being spied upon >> and without being controlled by anyone else. So I don't understand how >> anyone can put up with the useless crap you have to tap on while you >> can't see anything and achieve nothing. > > That's totally intended. :-) That doesn't mean people have to put with it. >> >> [...] you suddenly notice >> >> how wrong all the GUIs are designed. The old X programs can have the >> >> scroll bar on the left no problem, but all the new stuff is so great >> >> because it's immature and you have to click the like buttons nonetheless >> >> (even if you can't reach them because they're at odd locations). >> > >> > This is called "to explore". ;-) >> >> Hallowed are the like buttons! Who presses the greatest number of them >> will be rewarded with the most friends of them all! > > I prefer the dislike buttons, I'd be tempted to click on _those_ > rather than the Facebook spy machine's ones. :-) The problem is always that there are no such buttons. Think of elections, too ... >> >> >> >> Is this a general problem >> >> >> >> with the language pack or something specific to FreeBSD? >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Not FreeBSD-specific. It's one of the typical problems of >> >> >> > "constant change" when dealing with Mozilla software... :-/ >> >> >> >> >> >> Is there a usable alternative to Thunderbird for an IMAP client? >> >> > >> >> > Yes, Sylpheed is a lightweight and still very convenient and >> >> > usable MUA. It supports IMAP (as well as SMTP and POP3, which >> >> > is so obvious that I don't need to mention it). >> >> >> >> Hm. I'll try that out, thanks. If that is in German, the users can >> >> decide what causes them more confusion: the same program they're used to >> >> in English but German or a new program they've never used, but in German. >> > >> > Sylpheed is in any language you want (English and German verified), >> > depending on what $LC_* says. >> >> I tried it yesterday, and it has come a long way. I think the last time >> I tried it, it was called slightly different with claws, and it crashed >> all the time. > > Yes, I had the same problem on FreeBSD/AMD64. I'm not using the > Claws version ("Claws mail" today? I don't know due to the many > name chances...) and I'm more than happy with it. It does what > I want, and even better (!): It does _not_ do what I _don't_ want > it to do, like rendering HTML, automatically open attachments, > or other nonsense. It also integrates well with my mailing setup, > a nonstandard configuration that "modern" MUAs probably cannot > even be configured to attach to, because there's "only one way" > to access mail. right If I only could make Sylpheed remember which program to use to open which kind of attachment with ... >> It starts like 10 times faster than Thunderbird and even >> lets me use emacs. > > Yes, you can use an external editor. The file selection dialogs > are also better than the modern "tablet mode oriented" ones. > And it doesn't have a calender. And no add-ins, add-ons, > extensions, and the like. Still you can configure a lot, like > generating mail as text, using the preferred encoding... Text is default as it should be ... :) >> Writing any email that is more than two sentences >> with Thunderbird or seamonkey is always a pain because their built-in >> editor sucks so badly and they force you to use it. > > You can still get it a little better, but you need to go into > the configuration dialogs and change a lot - change it _back_ > to sane defaults. Emacs keybindings were the default for the mail client built into seamonkey and later Thunderbird? That must have been over 20 years ago ... >> But I haven't figured out how to make it so that libreoffice instead of >> gedit is the default program to open spreadsheets attached to >> emails. > > Right-click on attachment, select "Open with", enter the command > needed for this file type, and it will be saved. It saves only the command and not when to use it. That is way too complicated for the users because they need not only to remember to pick it but also which one. And it's _very_ annoying. There are a lot of spreadsheets being sent as emails as part of some workflows. It sucks that I have to use yet another menu, pick from there what I want to do, pick from another menu in yet another window that appears somewhere else on the screen (MinOverlapPlacement) what program to use to open the attachment after remembering what I wanted when I started, to finally be able to work with the spreadsheed eventually. Why can't there be a button at the attachment I can click on to open the attachment with the program I once, and only once, picked for it? Why do I even have to "open" the attachment rather than Sylpheed displaying it inline like it does with images? Libreoffice is open source ... > For example, I have two different commands for PDF attachments - > simply because I sometimes need program A, sometimes program B, > depending on the PDF file. Users don't have that. Even I don't have different programs to open spreadsheets. I don't have them for PDFs, either, but that's only because Thunderbird and Firefox aren't able to remember that I have them, and I can't be bothered to browse the file system to pick one or the other every other time --- especially not because I only have two because the so-called "document viewer" (that is evince, IIRC) takes ages (like a minute) before displaying a PDF while mupdf displays it right away. But mupdf isn't ideal for printing ... Even if everyone had lots of programs to open PDFs and spreadsheets, Sylpheed should nonetheless be able to remember them all and have a button to straightforwardly use the one picked for the purpose to open an attachment. It is rather unlikely that I would want to use all or even several of them to open that attachment and more likely that I do want to use the program I want to use for it, so what the heck. I guess that's the kind of thinking that has been lost for some reason and leads to stupid things like every program wanting to be its own window manager. Isn't that something "desktop environments" are for, making it easier to open attachments? Why are they doing the opposite of what they are for? Or does Evolution do that? From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Aug 7 00:44:45 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D619DB7D16 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 00:44:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lee@adminart.net) Received: from mo6-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de (mo6-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de [IPv6:2a01:238:20a:202:5300::9]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "*.smtp.rzone.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 463CSr2t07z3yGS for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 00:44:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lee@adminart.net) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1565138681; s=strato-dkim-0002; d=adminart.net; h=References:Message-ID:Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From: X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH:From:Subject:Sender; bh=pONqY71DwFkxFIUyWn+p5/Pl4Pblyn6taIkDAecQKN4=; b=LPTvqPmFSIaN9645023WWgEyNKFlp+YpJYlSNQ1RErwv4N4Z75v5h+vS8laPIQEhNR prXXZxVjPqsVgE9cLyihL64IBEOez72U7y3VSLUey7nkQ9eWBSr60AvcIxXpsh/Co+Bt UZXJP3qkoCpmXhqs4m5c3JE7oGQOVE7pW57Qfooux2mJoKK+aQmXBYNucziXBlvX38/H /MBmwim/+exZorRGEjqmWr7wCIdGQglZSwShHE7mVn/JChmSG2jKMrrN2qE40gGRvXFv bTguRM2Afs63ee+bxiX0gHhcs79oSlxe3rC3YgcbMTVQjOgmheFf1IvCgFtBmpF06bqs tIuw== X-RZG-AUTH: ":O2kGeEG7b/pS1FS4THaxjVF9w0vVgfQ9xGcjwO5WMRo5c+h5ceMqQWZ3yrBp+ARdaXvxIDf7nlw=" X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Received: from himinbjorg.adminart.net by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 44.24 DYNA|AUTH) with ESMTPSA id e0059dv770ifkYx (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (curve secp521r1 with 521 ECDH bits, eq. 15360 bits RSA)) (Client did not present a certificate); Wed, 7 Aug 2019 02:44:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from toy.adminart.net ([192.168.3.55]) by himinbjorg.adminart.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hvA4F-0001Wb-Jm; Wed, 07 Aug 2019 02:44:39 +0200 Received: from lee by toy.adminart.net with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hvA4F-0000y1-2d; Wed, 07 Aug 2019 02:44:39 +0200 From: hw To: Polytropon Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: thunderbird in German? In-Reply-To: <20190805064703.b1e29cbf.freebsd@edvax.de> (Polytropon's message of "Mon, 5 Aug 2019 06:47:03 +0200") Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 01:09:28 +0200 Organization: my virtual residence Message-ID: <87wofpq4bb.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <87o91bw4mx.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190731012754.3783a859.freebsd@edvax.de> <23873.2939.410268.920612@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <20190731225154.82dcb0ae.freebsd@edvax.de> <87h8705waf.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190802050200.dd286e57.freebsd@edvax.de> <877e7v9wts.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190803040009.291039df.freebsd@edvax.de> <87y30aaptw.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190805064703.b1e29cbf.freebsd@edvax.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 463CSr2t07z3yGS X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=adminart.net header.s=strato-dkim-0002 header.b=LPTvqPmF; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of lee@adminart.net has no SPF policy when checking 2a01:238:20a:202:5300::9) smtp.mailfrom=lee@adminart.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.71 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[adminart.net:s=strato-dkim-0002]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.996,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[adminart.net]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[adminart.net:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.84)[-0.843,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[hw@adminart.net,lee@adminart.net]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[9.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.3.5.2.0.2.0.a.0.2.0.8.3.2.0.1.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6724, ipnet:2a01:238::/32, country:DE]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[hw@adminart.net,lee@adminart.net]; IP_SCORE(-0.77)[ipnet: 2a01:238::/32(-3.40), asn: 6724(-0.45), country: DE(-0.01)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 00:44:45 -0000 Polytropon writes: > On Sat, 03 Aug 2019 23:42:19 +0200, hw wrote: >> Polytropon writes: >>=20 >> > On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 21:44:15 +0200, hw wrote: >> >> Polytropon writes: >> >>=20 >> >> > On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 00:57:12 +0200, hw wrote: >> >> >> Polytropon writes: >> >>=20 >> >> > [...] >> >> I usually don't notice whether it's English or German, but the users >> >> will freak out as if it would make a difference (which it doesn't >> >> because they don't know what they're doing anyway). >> > >> > Same here. I prefer the english interface language because the >> > german translation often is incomplete (english menu items among >> > german ones) or wrong or missing (especially regarding error >> > messages). >>=20 >> right >>=20 >> I think part of the problem is that Germany has almost entirely missed >> out on this technology, hence there is neither any frame of mind that >> could lead to good translations, nor are there words available that >> would be required. > > Availability of words (especially for established termini technici) > is not a problem. That's only true when you=C2=B4re referring to words nobody reckons. What = is the German word for "segmentation fault"? You're gona have a hard time even only translating "fault" because there is no such frame of mind in German as to translate it. When you realise that language --- though being created every time it is being used --- is a requirement for recognition, and that language is always bound to the particular frame of mind which is itself bound to the language, you can see that it is impossible to give any good translation into any language as long as the target language is not bound to a suitable frame of mind. The frame of mind doesn't come to be without words that are reckoned. It's like reading documentation: The documentation may be great, yet you aren't the wiser reading it because you need to read and to understand it before you can understand it. I usually solve that by reading it more and reading it again and understanding it eventually. That's what you have to do with language. Tranlsating is basically bullshit because you can't reckon what is being said anyway unless you understand it without translating. That you can listen to someone telling you how to ride a bike doesn't mean you could ride one. > I think the mindset it the following: "Novice users > won't read documentation anyway. Advanced users can understand the > existing english documentation, so why translate it?" The problem isn't the lack of translations, it's more the lack of documentation. > In many cases, the translation, if it exists, is sloppy and contains > lots of errors in many aspects (especially spelling and punctuation), That's because ppl don't realize what I said above and attempt to translate something they do not understand and without giving the reader anything about the frame of mind which the reader would need to become able to understand it eventually. If ppl were doing it right, they might have to write 500 or 50000 pages about the historical, cultural and technical context in order to enable the reader to understand the one page that is to be translated. > because the language skills of Germans regarding their own language is > constantly decreasing due to the ongoing "spelling reforms" which > cause writers to be unsure what spelling and punctuation rule is valid > _now_... The problem isn't that they are not sure how to write something. The language skills have deteriorated with the rapidly declining intelligence of the population in general, which goes on for many reasons, like schools utterly designed to keep the students as stupid as they can being only one of them. This is not surprising for the population can be kept under control the easier the more stuid it is. >> If there was a suitable frame of mind, there would >> probably be words, though it might be difficult to find a frame of mind >> without the suitable words. > > One core problem is that english words are simply interwoven in a > german sentence, like "wenn der Computer idle ist", where a german > translation would be possible (and useful, especially if there is > no explanation of what "idle" means. What's the German word for "idle"? "When the computer is idle ..." also does not give any explanation for what "idle" means (and it remains unclear whether you mean "if" or "when"). > Another core problem is to perform at least the attempt (!) to > provide suitable words, instead of going the "easier" way mentioned > above. Misunderstandings are preprogrammed. :-) What doesn it mean when the computer is "idle"? Does that correspond to a particular C-state, a particular frequency a number of CPUs have assumed, so many interrupts being processed per second --- or to the computer doing nothing (instead of running a name server) while driving 10 VMs which are more or less "idle"? Or something else? > But keep in mind Germans, before 1990, were able to use programs > provided in English, because there simply was no other language > version available. This especially applied to the 8-bit era and > the mainframe use. Programs are still in English. Or has someone invented a German programming language and lots of programmers use it? Has there been a German operating system been developed? Don't forget the lazyness ... >> It took years before I finally figured out that "allgemeine >> Schutzverletzung" is supposed to mean "segmentation fault". > > The correct TT is "Speicherschutzverletzung", as segmentation > refers to memory. :-) That is not a word, and suggesting that "memory" had anything to do with "Speicher" is just another misconception that tries to ignore the frame of mind in lack of one. > Took me some learning to understand that in SYSABEND, "abend" > didn't mean "evening", but "AB-normal END". I still use the > word "Sysabend machen" for "Feierabend machen". See, there is no such frame of mind. > And a classic one: "Help! My PC says I performed an illegal > abortion!!!" ;-) Did one ever say that? >> I wouldn't >> even call that a translation; it only shows that whoever came up with it >> had no clue what they were translating. Segmentation fault makes >> perfect sense in English and none whatsoever in German because there is >> no frame of mind with which anyone could understand what it means. I'd >> call it "Arbeitsspeicherbereichstrennungs=C3=BCberschreitung", and noone >> would understand that, either. > > The logical conclusion would be "Segmentierung" while explaining > what this means in the context of memory, and next to "fault", > there's also "violation" where more than one possible translation > exists; I'd say "=C3=9Cberschreitung" or "Verletzung" would be a good > one in _this_ context. "Segmentierung" is not a German word. "Fault" is intentionally vague here; if it didn't sound so bad and if it were fitting the frame of mind, it would probably be called "segmentation mistake". Again you need to understand the frame of mind to understand why it isn't called that. And then there is that computers never make mistakes, so of course they can't have segmentation mistakes ... You can be creative and call it "Aufteilungsversehen". It's even better because it doesn't involve "Speicher" like it doesn't to begin with, yet it is still meaningless. >> > The only programs I really _want_ to be in German are LibreOffice and >> > Firefox (for reference). >>=20 >> So are they any different or is it just to see how bad the translation >> is? > > The german translation for LibreOffice is excellent, and it helps > me in my work to have a reference system in the same language as > my users. Additionally I often don't know the english name of > something I'm familiar with in German, like "Registerhaltigkeit" > or other TT from typography. I see what you mean by "for reference". > [...] >> > Would you say KDE is usable again for "german novice users"? >> > I haven't tried KDE for some time because of bloat... >>=20 >> I know someone who's using it after I switched to KDE from Gnome because >> he needed a couple program starters. So far, he seems to be ok with it. > > I've had users using PC-BSD years ago, when it was still KDE-based, > and they were happy with it. perhaps that version was less buggy >> I haven't tried KDE in a very long time. I used it for a while and gave >> up because of too many bugs. > > My fear of KDE is bloat. It has its own subsystems, piles of > libraries, services and so on that are primarily developed for > Linux. Linux is rather bloated nowadays even without things like KDE. > Will they always work on FreeBSD as intended? And if your > PC is already a few years old, will the graphics be smooth enough > to be usable? Do they work as intended anywhere? You can always replace the graphics card. > Many years ago, someone complained about skipping audio on a > quite performant PC. I replied that on my 150 MHz Pentium PC > with 128 MB RAM, I could play MP3 (non-skipping), burn a CD, > download FreeBSD sources, compile a port, and still have a > responsive web browser (Opera) in the foreground, so why > should that be a problem? :-) That must have been _many_ years ago ... and 128MB is a gigantic amount of RAM. How many boards suported that much? >> I've never had any use for these so-called >> "desktop environments", and I don't understand what the point of those >> is. > > Many users coming from a "Windows" background depend on certain > things to exist. As long as the desktop provides an equivalent, > they're happy. They could just learn a few things and use something far better. > Now compare this to users I once had coming from a Solaris background, > expecting something like CDE. What I did? Configure XFCE (version 3) > to look and feel like KDE, wether they used a Linux or a BSD > workstation. They were happy with it, and it was faster than on the > old Solaris boxes they left behind. :-) Nowadays you could use CDE ... >> They seem to try to force you to do stuff in some more or less >> weird way someone apparently figured should be the way to do things --- >> but it isn't, and they're just getting in the way. > > [...] > > Another example: An accountant complained that her expensive > software would often cause needless printouts - waste of paper > that nobody needs. But deleting the printer queue with the GUI > elements often didn't go fast enough, so the nonsense was still > printed. I told her to open a terminal in parallel, and after > the program starts generating the "waste reports", enter "lprm -", > and repeat the command a few times if needed, until she could > click on the button to print the actually desired report. She > wanted to learn more, and now she's able to use "lpq" and "lprm" > on all the printers in the office. That's what I mean, the "desktop environment" tries to force you to do something in some way and thus only gets in the way. There are very few programs that benefit from a GUI; Gimp comes to mind, and, perhaps and if you can find one, a good file manager for some things. Doing stuff with images without a GUI would be somewhat difficult, and a GUI file manager can sometimes help visualizing things. Almost all other programs have only one way of benefitting from a GUI: they reside alongside other programs in their windows on the screen, making it easy for me to switch between them. If it wasn't for that, I might use the console more or less always. And I never figured out the weird UI of mc. >> That's probably how >> you can not add program starters to Gnome: Someone must have figured >> that you must not start programs of your choosing with the required >> parameters, hence you can't. Perhaps the next version doesn't have a >> terminal because nobody needs one and it's way too complicated anyway. > > As far as I know, at least on some Ubuntu versions with Gnome 3, > there isn't a terminal in the dock on the left, and you need to > "explore apps" in order to find it, or maybe right-click to check > if "Open Terminal" is in the desktop's or top bar's context menu. You have to search for it with Fedoras Gnome version, too. I can't really do anything without a terminal, especially when I can't have program starters and when the window manager can not be configured. So what is the point of "desktop environments" other than getting in the way? >> At least if you manage to set up your keyboard right, you can still >> switch to the console until they remove that possibility, too. > > Yes, that was also a problem. I configured a german keyboard > for all users centrally in the X configuration, and additionally > in the XML file buried deep in the /usr/local tree, for the > dreaded HAL/DBus combo. Gnome didn't care. It knew better, and > for all users, keyboard configuration had to be done manually > by clicking around. O(n) is worse than O(1), and _that_ is what > we have computers for. :-) that is simply unacceptable Have you never noticed that you have to get keyboard for the console set up right before you can switch? >> Can you even switch when using wayland? And how would you X11-forward >> something to a wayland session through ssh, should wayland ever work >> with NVIDIA cards? > > You probably can't. My impression is that Wayland is "local only", > so the networking features of X aren't usable anymore. You can > probably still use some kind of VNC server / client... Being able to forward is a requirement. >> >> There's just nothing better than fvwm ... >> > >> > On my laptop I'm using IceWM (with "metal2" style which finally >> > includes a BSD start button, but at the top, where it belongs to) >> > again, combined with wbar and a Mac background image for a "good >> > look". ;-) >> > >> > On my home system, I found nothing better than a highly customized >> > WIndowMaker with xdm. >>=20 >> Fvwm manages windows. All the other window managers I've tried force you >> to manage the windows yourself. > > I was quite happy with fvwm, the only problem was that it stopped > supporting Alt+left click for moving windows (as this is very > convenient and works almost everywhere). It's not useful when you use the trackball with the left hand. I'm using AltGr instead --- though I don't see why you shoudn't be able to make a key binding for it if it was removed. > So I tried to get the configuration file to support it again, and > sometimes it worked, then stopped working, Did you play with the NumLock key? > so I gave up and re-discovered IceWM with the "metal2" theme. I don't > care about the menu on the top left, I don't configure that, because > for the most important programs, I have wbar at the bottom, and > everything else is CLI work anyway, so managing terminal windows is > the biggest task IceWM performs. You might like i3. Yet fvwm can do tiling as well, and I'm finding a floating WM better because the tiling one kinda gets all windows stuck and makes it really difficult to have them in all kinds of sizes just how and where you want them. That way, I get the best of both worlds because I can use tiling when I want to and not when I don't. >> How are IceWM and Windowmaker in that regard? > > WindowMaker is excellent, at least after you configured it according > to your needs. I have a keyboard with a 2x5 section left to the > alphanumeric section (Sun type 7 german, and IBM 5250 custom). Is that the one with 24 function keys? I have a Unicomp one with 24 function keys and some on the left, but it's an American version. I put some emacs key bindings on those keys on the left, but then the problem was to remember which key does what. It's much easier to use the same keyboard and default key bindings everywhere, and I currently have that. > I use those for window manipulation, like rolling them up, shifting > them to another virtual desktop (very important!), changing foreground > and background ("stacking"), or maximizing (hardly done, because > on a 21" 4:3 CRT, you usually don't fullscreen). You're still using a CRT? Isn't it worn out yet? I never thought of using these keys to do something with windows. They're on the wrong side of the keyboard for that. Besides, the idea is that I don't need to do anything with windows. The window manager does it for me, it's its job to do that. I switch desks and sometimes stacking order, sometimes I might move a window or let the WM replace it, and that's it. > But everything depends on configuration and how you get used to it. It also depends on the abilities of the WM. Like the one Gnome forces upon you has no abilities, and that makes Gnome unusable. I'll never understand why anyone would put any effort into a window manager that isn't only totally useless in itself but also makes all the rest of the "desktop environment" it is supposed to serve just as useless ... Why didn't they at least make the WM replacable like it used to be? > I also tried tiling window managers (because people much more > professional than me use them all the time), but I'm too stupid > for them. I know what they do, what their intention is, and how > they work, but it just doesn't match my established workflow. It takes some getting used to. I went back from i3 because at the time I tried it, i3 couldn't do sticky floating windows. That was fixed later, but as I had discovered that fvwm can do tiling, there was no reason to go back --- and like I said, I have the best of both worlds since. > The same applies to emacs. ;-) I would say that for vi, I just don't get along with it. Actually, vi has been particularly nasty in FreeBSD because for unknown reasons, sometimes I can't delete a character. Ctrl-d writes ^D on the screen, and neither Del, nor Backspace work. It works just fine in emacs ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Aug 7 00:44:45 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F175EB7D1A for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 00:44:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lee@adminart.net) Received: from mo6-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de (mo6-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de [IPv6:2a01:238:20a:202:5300::6]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "*.smtp.rzone.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 463CSr2w4Fz3yGT for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 00:44:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lee@adminart.net) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1565138681; s=strato-dkim-0002; d=adminart.net; h=References:Message-ID:Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From: X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH:From:Subject:Sender; bh=EPtrBYBoSKU8wsyRTBl+eDBZoN6JN8bpBizJ+Brxa5M=; b=aPNpYc6NU5PbXzD9cqQN2sfKVrVYVumX1V7Ko0yb/Ptt+mseKOrt1Iyw0Li+R7I3N/ /OEHMFQdE/6BQHdCU2ojD0eEDW59kQ1rNPEskfgbJRPHgNAp0B6ebmPeTSvGpyjE5Xv8 aiCZx1pPjlg3n5u/XgCqXyU/IOGOrLTrStySdWet6q2Ag/i+FUh4V1RBv1i8Kyn82f6/ LjsrtB9G5O0MK99d9tSAeLtSciHwbOvnbgQNTkhGE1vD+O1A7l4a6QWLNzuDydx5hcoG +7GZuqKPby/p3V8uXQQ+1QQzGzTthBTJGJYP1CnM17Nt0FhKivhmJ3PVXKRj9Vkq0YT6 YBEw== X-RZG-AUTH: ":O2kGeEG7b/pS1FS4THaxjVF9w0vVgfQ9xGcjwO5WMRo5c+h5ceMqQWZ3yrBp+ARdaXvxIDf7nlw=" X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Received: from himinbjorg.adminart.net by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 44.24 DYNA|AUTH) with ESMTPSA id e0059dv770iekYv (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (curve secp521r1 with 521 ECDH bits, eq. 15360 bits RSA)) (Client did not present a certificate); Wed, 7 Aug 2019 02:44:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from toy.adminart.net ([192.168.3.55]) by himinbjorg.adminart.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hvA4F-0001Wj-Or; Wed, 07 Aug 2019 02:44:39 +0200 Received: from lee by toy.adminart.net with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hvA4F-0000yB-Mt; Wed, 07 Aug 2019 02:44:39 +0200 From: hw To: MJ Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: how to install into a directory In-Reply-To: <18a2c14c-0767-534a-dc48-dbd167180e1b@gmail.com> (MJ's message of "Mon, 5 Aug 2019 12:17:44 +1000") Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 02:44:20 +0200 Organization: my virtual residence Message-ID: <87lfw5pzx7.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <871ry05xea.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <18a2c14c-0767-534a-dc48-dbd167180e1b@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 463CSr2w4Fz3yGT X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=adminart.net header.s=strato-dkim-0002 header.b=aPNpYc6N; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of lee@adminart.net has no SPF policy when checking 2a01:238:20a:202:5300::6) smtp.mailfrom=lee@adminart.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.85 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[adminart.net:s=strato-dkim-0002]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[adminart.net]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[adminart.net:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.980,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[hw@adminart.net,lee@adminart.net]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[6.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.3.5.2.0.2.0.a.0.2.0.8.3.2.0.1.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6724, ipnet:2a01:238::/32, country:DE]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[hw@adminart.net,lee@adminart.net]; IP_SCORE(-0.77)[ipnet: 2a01:238::/32(-3.41), asn: 6724(-0.45), country: DE(-0.01)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 00:44:46 -0000 MJ writes: > The archives contained here: > > https://download.freebsd.org/ftp/releases/amd64/amd64/12.0-RELEASE/ > > > Assuming you're amd64 based. Extract them into that directory. Yes, thanks! It can't get any easier :) I got it to work today, so I can PXE boot FreeBSD and kinda *jump* users into an xfreerdp session on the xrdp server right after they logged in at the console, abusing startx as login shell and a suitable .xinitrc in their home directories mounted via NFS. What I couldn't get to work is XDM doing that for me, which seemed to be the way it ought to be done. Like a machine would PXE boot and show XDM and a user logs in and instead of XDM starting a window manager, it starts xfreerdp --- which also raises the question how I could avoid requiring the user to log in twice after getting XDM to work somehow. For the record, the Thinstation stuff didn't work at all. It was impossible to create a bootable image (perhaps Fedora is an incompatible host system), and even the VM image they supply to make images is not bootable (which otherwise should be compatible so that bootable images can be made ...). So save your time and go to FreeBSD instead. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Aug 7 00:58:40 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38467B8568; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 00:58:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deischen@freebsd.org) Received: from mail.netplex.net (mail.netplex.net [204.213.176.9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.netplex.net", Issuer "RapidSSL RSA CA 2018" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 463Cmv6Q92z40CN; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 00:58:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deischen@freebsd.org) Received: from [10.166.221.74] (mobile-107-107-57-103.mycingular.net [107.107.57.103]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netplex.net (8.15.1/8.15.1/NETPLEX) with ESMTPSA id x770wVaQ016774 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 6 Aug 2019 20:58:32 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS and Clam AntiVirus (mail.netplex.net) X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (mail.netplex.net [204.213.176.9]); Tue, 06 Aug 2019 20:58:33 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: mutex held in a thread which is cancelled stays busy From: Daniel Eischen X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16G77) In-Reply-To: <20190806165429.14bc4052.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 20:58:30 -0400 Cc: freebsd-threads@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1FC05CEB-982F-484F-9E41-5A74FF564494@freebsd.org> References: <20190806165429.14bc4052.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> To: Erich Dollansky X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 463Cmv6Q92z40CN X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.78 / 15.00]; local_wl_from(0.00)[freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.996,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.92)[-0.916,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.87)[-0.872,0]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6062, ipnet:204.213.176.0/20, country:US] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 00:58:40 -0000 > On Aug 6, 2019, at 4:54 AM, Erich Dollansky wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > for testing purpose, I did the following. >=20 > Start a thread, initialise a mutex in a global variable, lock the mutex > and wait in that thread. >=20 > Wait in the main program until above's thread waits and cancel it. >=20 > Clean up behind the cancelled thread but leave intentional the mutex > locked. >=20 > I would have expected now to get an error like 'EOWNERDEAD' doing > operations with that mutex. But I get 'EBUSY' as the error. Are you initializing the mutex as a robust mutex, via pthread_mutexattr_setr= obust()? Are you using _lock() or _trylock()? For _trylock(), you only get EOWNERDEAD for robust mutexes. It seems that y= ou should get EOWNERDEAD for _lock() in this case, so if that's what you're d= oing, it sounds like it might be a bug. -- DE= From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Aug 7 01:56:20 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 738ADBA88C for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 01:56:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com) Received: from out2-4.antispamcloud.com (out2-4.antispamcloud.com [185.201.17.4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 463F3S2H5qz440h; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 01:56:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com) Received: from srv31.niagahoster.com ([153.92.8.106]) by mx62.antispamcloud.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hvBBY-0001jh-IT; 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Wed, 07 Aug 2019 08:55:29 +0700 Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 09:55:21 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky To: Daniel Eischen Cc: freebsd-threads@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mutex held in a thread which is cancelled stays busy Message-ID: <20190807095521.23e79874.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> In-Reply-To: <1FC05CEB-982F-484F-9E41-5A74FF564494@freebsd.org> References: <20190806165429.14bc4052.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <1FC05CEB-982F-484F-9E41-5A74FF564494@freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 X-AuthUser: freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com X-Originating-IP: 153.92.8.106 X-Spampanel-Domain: out.niagahoster.com X-Spampanel-Username: niaga X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.10) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Mvzo4OR0dZXEDF/gcnlw0YiRRkpbHZ8F3zevhEShTfypSDasLI4SayDByyq9LIhVcXSMTL9HkUMo SGLCNdCGjkTNWdUk1Ol2OGx3IfrIJKyP9eGNFz9TW9u+Jt8z2T3KSZWQ0mYy/5bX2tR2MxjY1He4 QIvBAg3toE6wd3PtFST6QG6oDWQr5qk8z/hipQQV8BnYfpDYZuPUHQ4+kRclmut3X8qJIxoEnWnh Z3Z4EQ0EybI1sOftHmSKUCHCvcq0TzZjnkrrL1mACMw/UF0G0YY2nx1cxH3HU+PdSK79lGxlwCIq IFS/mFDdwByP9xvkiFKfD1jKgYfH+6S5qDVYoHMsWssqp2lt1msloY8jIytZBppJJpFwVMXFpG8A OA64V0BTl9HMz9DNBb38igffcAbwQK4LAQJrMLA4O04Xvw+LJASz52UZdQktZn4ZzTw2aWWR7drM d0qbJIo1RVCXie2VXGdtLyog7ui50fJvZPWymVBEglNuNDdi9xAbizrH5OsVdOhXIGZEKBBVfrNX IVS7yrN4xA/q5McvR31SN9j/k1N3tK79oubV/+cOjvsnVgW9/bktU41htiJ8fk7NkNwbqGxFBmIA iDD7PzfsCqBft7Ajx7WHtEhOA3XgEeYZW39F4n0x+HPOZspMfvAj0YRTW602yRQA5EJXZYVlfSMC REzfnoFC6n4OhPINd4JYiRnjw/yazDFYILBfUFtypNfW/NFkpeAnOL+dmWwczcN/uZMLhgfeg7qI /OGW6RghMzg958IFbKKlNc0N5cagQhEVniihuDwEGDcmr6e3OPR6sTg77M0R+x8fsZyY3r6hhtDd uEmQaNsuP6MC13FFFhmqMsV06mxfYj+GMh+J0s3oGIU/PTbWBECV59LK0QpTUV8ShebT8U8Xw9HT DfreWfMdEG+w4w+UCBj80AzHFeE4XjD8YIRbIyMCDTapG1wv+PkEjlaMIKgdxNnS2I5dkIU7rv9S DguAeTunaCXFDs4WM6T6hgb0dJLNfyKLko5LifnL+9wgoTj4ygNPw1XfNxMQN11Phz3Ne8+Pf6jt WO02wSOXSHf4/MYvYKEiKwpEGJdimYZGouioJWKkMaVHGnBqz7TRiWF91U/smddrJvE= X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine10.antispamcloud.com X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 463F3S2H5qz440h X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.96 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.97)[-0.966,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.997,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 01:56:20 -0000 Hi, On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 20:58:30 -0400 Daniel Eischen wrote: > > On Aug 6, 2019, at 4:54 AM, Erich Dollansky > > wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > for testing purpose, I did the following. > > > > Start a thread, initialise a mutex in a global variable, lock the > > mutex and wait in that thread. > > > > Wait in the main program until above's thread waits and cancel it. > > > > Clean up behind the cancelled thread but leave intentional the mutex > > locked. > > > > I would have expected now to get an error like 'EOWNERDEAD' doing > > operations with that mutex. But I get 'EBUSY' as the error. > > Are you initializing the mutex as a robust mutex, via > pthread_mutexattr_setrobust()? Are you using _lock() or _trylock()? > > For _trylock(), you only get EOWNERDEAD for robust mutexes. It seems > that you should get EOWNERDEAD for _lock() in this case, so if that's > what you're doing, it sounds like it might be a bug. > I did both. One time with initialising the mutex with its defaults by handing over NULL as the attribute setting and one time with the attributes set. I use this line to set the attribute: pres = pthread_mutexattr_setrobust (& Attr, PTHREAD_MUTEX_ROBUST); The following line: pthread_mutexattr_getrobust (& Attr, &pres); Sets pres also to 1. I am doing this on 12.0-STABLE FreeBSD 12.0-STABLE r350391 GENERIC amd64 with the systems standard compiler. Is this the corrent way of doing it? Erich From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Aug 7 03:38:54 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 053B2BCA8F; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 03:38:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deischen@freebsd.org) Received: from mail.netplex.net (mail.netplex.net [204.213.176.9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.netplex.net", Issuer "RapidSSL RSA CA 2018" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 463HKn4t7Gz49Dg; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 03:38:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deischen@freebsd.org) Received: from [10.166.221.74] (mobile-107-107-57-103.mycingular.net [107.107.57.103]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netplex.net (8.15.1/8.15.1/NETPLEX) with ESMTPSA id x773cpG0048327 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 6 Aug 2019 23:38:52 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS and Clam AntiVirus (mail.netplex.net) X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (mail.netplex.net [204.213.176.9]); Tue, 06 Aug 2019 23:38:52 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: mutex held in a thread which is cancelled stays busy From: Daniel Eischen X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16G77) In-Reply-To: <20190807095521.23e79874.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 23:38:51 -0400 Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-threads@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0CEB9578-74BE-42E7-A612-9A7AE3DBD052@freebsd.org> References: <20190806165429.14bc4052.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <1FC05CEB-982F-484F-9E41-5A74FF564494@freebsd.org> <20190807095521.23e79874.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> To: Erich Dollansky X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 463HKn4t7Gz49Dg X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.84 / 15.00]; local_wl_from(0.00)[freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.996,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.975,0]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6062, ipnet:204.213.176.0/20, country:US]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.87)[-0.872,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 03:38:54 -0000 > On Aug 6, 2019, at 9:55 PM, Erich Dollansky wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 20:58:30 -0400 > Daniel Eischen wrote: >=20 >>> On Aug 6, 2019, at 4:54 AM, Erich Dollansky >>> wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi, >>>=20 >>> for testing purpose, I did the following. >>>=20 >>> Start a thread, initialise a mutex in a global variable, lock the >>> mutex and wait in that thread. >>>=20 >>> Wait in the main program until above's thread waits and cancel it. >>>=20 >>> Clean up behind the cancelled thread but leave intentional the mutex >>> locked. >>>=20 >>> I would have expected now to get an error like 'EOWNERDEAD' doing >>> operations with that mutex. But I get 'EBUSY' as the error. =20 >>=20 >> Are you initializing the mutex as a robust mutex, via >> pthread_mutexattr_setrobust()? Are you using _lock() or _trylock()? >>=20 >> For _trylock(), you only get EOWNERDEAD for robust mutexes. It seems >> that you should get EOWNERDEAD for _lock() in this case, so if that's >> what you're doing, it sounds like it might be a bug. >>=20 > I did both. One time with initialising the mutex with its defaults by > handing over NULL as the attribute setting and one time with the > attributes set. >=20 > I use this line to set the attribute: >=20 > pres =3D pthread_mutexattr_setrobust (& Attr, PTHREAD_MUTEX_ROBUST); >=20 > The following line: >=20 > pthread_mutexattr_getrobust (& Attr, &pres); >=20 > Sets pres also to 1. >=20 > I am doing this on 12.0-STABLE FreeBSD 12.0-STABLE r350391 GENERIC > amd64 with the systems standard compiler. >=20 > Is this the corrent way of doing it? Yes, I believe so. I'm curious if the bug also exists in -current. -- DE= From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Aug 7 04:08:32 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 778ABBD2E2 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 04:08:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com) Received: from out2-4.antispamcloud.com (out2-4.antispamcloud.com [185.201.17.4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 463J002J2xz4BPq; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 04:08:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com) Received: from srv31.niagahoster.com ([153.92.8.106]) by mx66.antispamcloud.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hvDFU-000AME-Jb; Wed, 07 Aug 2019 06:08:30 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sumeritec.com; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type: MIME-Version:References:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date:Sender :Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help: List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=fYqwsZPpyPP4AfN8jQUYX4CMnyMPedGSI6FClulRStU=; b=SlYUWZDZyM5EuACcgHzOAOA8Ra 3nUdj9gPDJvQesW8zJ19xxpqRt9Jt1/EuU44sDr5o3IGvT2OVX+OD7X7uL9Ny4/WTDt84Uo8tv/T8 2KbFW210piKTOBzJSHSUmGBqNHJVBLoHr5NO1JPX8fsIUm9efPbB+uw4MqRKg6xXAEjJMFbmMkSvl AuyLwJpk88RSaw1jR6DMR+2IW/GlGTd397/nRyaiqVxHui0iX7QY2ZdTorIfukopUaKy441STQUbL C2IVaJF/v8tG+2XNq+XI0Fok2AtZLeSmVqDJcFD4Wifk9qfKSf1sppRXmdEyhpj9b7s+H4OLI54jG gkB3dXfA==; Received: from [114.125.102.23] (port=15116 helo=Ryzen1.sumeritec.com) by srv31.niagahoster.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hvDEd-00049Q-Ke; Wed, 07 Aug 2019 11:07:41 +0700 Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 12:07:34 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky To: Daniel Eischen Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-threads@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mutex held in a thread which is cancelled stays busy Message-ID: <20190807120734.1c55392d.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> In-Reply-To: <0CEB9578-74BE-42E7-A612-9A7AE3DBD052@freebsd.org> References: <20190806165429.14bc4052.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <1FC05CEB-982F-484F-9E41-5A74FF564494@freebsd.org> <20190807095521.23e79874.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <0CEB9578-74BE-42E7-A612-9A7AE3DBD052@freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 X-AuthUser: freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com X-Originating-IP: 153.92.8.106 X-Spampanel-Domain: out.niagahoster.com X-Spampanel-Username: niaga X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.11) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Mvzo4OR0dZXEDF/gcnlw0YiRRkpbHZ8F3zevhEShTfypSDasLI4SayDByyq9LIhV4UsW/Vlvetcm 0SuxVQ1snUTNWdUk1Ol2OGx3IfrIJKyP9eGNFz9TW9u+Jt8z2T3KSZWQ0mYy/5bX2tR2MxjY1He4 QIvBAg3toE6wd3PtFST6QG6oDWQr5qk8z/hipQQV8BnYfpDYZuPUHQ4+kRclmoCMwdohv2z4UN87 RIUSYg8EybI1sOftHmSKUCHCvcq0TzZjnkrrL1mACMw/UF0G0YY2nx1cxH3HU+PdSK79lGxlwCIq IFS/mFDdwByP9xvkiFKfD1jKgYfH+6S5qDVYoH4Q6gVso6BoEWgMh2eZG8VZBppJJpFwVMXFpG8A OA64V0BTl9HMz9DNBb38igffcAbwQK4LAQJrMLA4O04Xvw+LJASz52UZdQktZn4ZzTw2aWWR7drM d0qbJIo1RVCXie2VXGdtLyog7ui50fJvZPWymVBEglNuNDdi9xAbizrH5OsVdOhXIGZEKBBVfrNX IVS7yrN4xA/q5McvR31SN9j/k1N3tK79oubV/+cOjvsnVgW9/bktU41htiJ8fk7NkNwbqGxFBmIA iDD7PzfsCqBft7Ajx7WHtEhOA3XgEeYZW39F4n0x+HPOZspMfvAj0YRTW602yRQA5EJXZYVlfSOb jljpzcldG5bc9h0NLkX5XuUtdBRw0CzMOyehQ6vQGPoZBvRq7vNWUiEF5SqFnyDndfpAb9ZFTn8m gpTJZxm80bRbmskEhysblbPkZqqEaqntKr6+crm+rffkaQ6ZgOgs/PUdToROXy0SooJw/+uyotP0 GM6NBB2Ekw9mxBq7+kSynOQfwTsEBmKCEVuye7Yp0y+Z08l1puxAIkxLtIO4ctgzcDoFd+96Xw4Q UNtTnTtDW9uQ9+a2iKQ+Krce6qdi29i09pDdHiPUPyFMOqSfFLRIX0I3Ns8B9SS0VR7cJhiXYpmG RqLoqCVipDGlRxor8l1a+B3b8WJsR0wzQmfG79VwBFEkmDQI9UZcVgDvELHtJZkGl0BQCuf9K3TR oZpykkPhiO0Aezx/e4evy+lm3mGyjSnaoQr28ssfojBfDxRcGvAMkGKozu6mLYl2/vU= X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine10.antispamcloud.com X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 463J002J2xz4BPq X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.97 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.977,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.997,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 04:08:32 -0000 Hi, On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 23:38:51 -0400 Daniel Eischen wrote: > > On Aug 6, 2019, at 9:55 PM, Erich Dollansky > > wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 20:58:30 -0400 > > Daniel Eischen wrote: > > > >>> On Aug 6, 2019, at 4:54 AM, Erich Dollansky > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi, > >>> > >>> for testing purpose, I did the following. > >>> > >>> Start a thread, initialise a mutex in a global variable, lock the > >>> mutex and wait in that thread. > >>> > >>> Wait in the main program until above's thread waits and cancel it. > >>> > >>> Clean up behind the cancelled thread but leave intentional the > >>> mutex locked. > >>> > >>> I would have expected now to get an error like 'EOWNERDEAD' doing > >>> operations with that mutex. But I get 'EBUSY' as the error. > >> > >> Are you initializing the mutex as a robust mutex, via > >> pthread_mutexattr_setrobust()? Are you using _lock() or > >> _trylock()? > >> > >> For _trylock(), you only get EOWNERDEAD for robust mutexes. It > >> seems that you should get EOWNERDEAD for _lock() in this case, so > >> if that's what you're doing, it sounds like it might be a bug. > >> > > I did both. One time with initialising the mutex with its defaults > > by handing over NULL as the attribute setting and one time with the > > attributes set. > > > > I use this line to set the attribute: > > > > pres = pthread_mutexattr_setrobust (& Attr, PTHREAD_MUTEX_ROBUST); > > > > The following line: > > > > pthread_mutexattr_getrobust (& Attr, &pres); > > > > Sets pres also to 1. > > > > I am doing this on 12.0-STABLE FreeBSD 12.0-STABLE r350391 GENERIC > > amd64 with the systems standard compiler. > > > > Is this the corrent way of doing it? > > Yes, I believe so. I'm curious if the bug also exists in -current. > I do not have CURRENT on any machine at the moment. Erich From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Aug 7 04:16:27 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1519BD6A1 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 04:16:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mafsys1234@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pg1-x52a.google.com (mail-pg1-x52a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 463J97114Nz4Bx2 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 04:16:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mafsys1234@gmail.com) Received: by mail-pg1-x52a.google.com with SMTP id n4so1014934pgv.2 for ; Tue, 06 Aug 2019 21:16:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; 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RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[9]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-8.77), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-3.05), asn: 15169(-2.45), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[a.2.5.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 04:16:27 -0000 You have read the handbook? https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/x-xdm.html Specifically: 5.6.2. Configuring Remote Access ?? That's if I understand your musings correctly? On 7/08/2019 10:44 am, hw wrote: > MJ writes: > >> The archives contained here: >> >> https://download.freebsd.org/ftp/releases/amd64/amd64/12.0-RELEASE/ >> >> >> Assuming you're amd64 based. Extract them into that directory. > Yes, thanks! It can't get any easier :) > > I got it to work today, so I can PXE boot FreeBSD and kinda *jump* users > into an xfreerdp session on the xrdp server right after they logged in > at the console, abusing startx as login shell and a suitable .xinitrc in > their home directories mounted via NFS. > > What I couldn't get to work is XDM doing that for me, which seemed to be > the way it ought to be done. Like a machine would PXE boot and show XDM > and a user logs in and instead of XDM starting a window manager, it > starts xfreerdp --- which also raises the question how I could avoid > requiring the user to log in twice after getting XDM to work somehow. > > > For the record, the Thinstation stuff didn't work at all. It was > impossible to create a bootable image (perhaps Fedora is an incompatible > host system), and even the VM image they supply to make images is not > bootable (which otherwise should be compatible so that bootable images > can be made ...). So save your time and go to FreeBSD instead. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Aug 7 04:32:56 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76CF0BDED6 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 04:32:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mafsys1234@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pl1-x644.google.com (mail-pl1-x644.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::644]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 463JX74z26z4Cjl for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 04:32:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mafsys1234@gmail.com) Received: by mail-pl1-x644.google.com with SMTP id c14so38678280plo.0 for ; Tue, 06 Aug 2019 21:32:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=4uAupBTMWr7BaUh9WJ10QICIA59b2F5FGZTUKrKQ5z4=; b=TYaBGNhFYGOODB+y/RNfrXh8sFBW7SW7dHF/W1eq3cpnXbfe+wQ9MY7+f3u9DAAvpI vXdmrprvECJXcQ1u0W9qIR6KO9HUxF0xEGjh7iZ3M194wH/FhxUygCStwgSEy1uxnMic OFPEiWUp9+poza8oDDz4hsSgZxWUlIfVzxZHepD01PqC77d0XiMFHlouh+ZCz4eRvK8i DfwVIx6hgwV9cGkfLUUWe4I5bSphlnpRGLwqpS9r1kNW7breAMpBMbKWk568pMKyEGD9 qtFvdpvhZt7DJigy0D1cMrO2gHbMfS95PYZmikQCULbqLc6Q709SZoIyrhjAu3ZVCFUk FhAw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; 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WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20190807095521.23e79874.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 463JX74z26z4Cjl X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=TYaBGNhF; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mafsys1234@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::644 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mafsys1234@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-0.37), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-3.05), asn: 15169(-2.45), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[4.4.6.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 04:32:56 -0000 I just noticed this: pthread_mutexattr_getrobust (& Attr, &pres); Why are you passing &pres? It should be the address of PTHREAD_MUTEX_ROBUST (or PTHREAD_MUTEX_STALLED ?) I would expect you should get EINVAL when testing the above statement. The Freebsd manual says: "If successful, these functions return 0." Refer: PTHREAD_MUTEXATTR(3) On 7/08/2019 11:55 am, Erich Dollansky wrote: > Hi, > > On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 20:58:30 -0400 > Daniel Eischen wrote: > >>> On Aug 6, 2019, at 4:54 AM, Erich Dollansky >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> for testing purpose, I did the following. >>> >>> Start a thread, initialise a mutex in a global variable, lock the >>> mutex and wait in that thread. >>> >>> Wait in the main program until above's thread waits and cancel it. >>> >>> Clean up behind the cancelled thread but leave intentional the mutex >>> locked. >>> >>> I would have expected now to get an error like 'EOWNERDEAD' doing >>> operations with that mutex. But I get 'EBUSY' as the error. >> >> Are you initializing the mutex as a robust mutex, via >> pthread_mutexattr_setrobust()? Are you using _lock() or _trylock()? >> >> For _trylock(), you only get EOWNERDEAD for robust mutexes. It seems >> that you should get EOWNERDEAD for _lock() in this case, so if that's >> what you're doing, it sounds like it might be a bug. >> > I did both. One time with initialising the mutex with its defaults by > handing over NULL as the attribute setting and one time with the > attributes set. > > I use this line to set the attribute: > > pres = pthread_mutexattr_setrobust (& Attr, PTHREAD_MUTEX_ROBUST); > > The following line: > > pthread_mutexattr_getrobust (& Attr, &pres); > > Sets pres also to 1. > > I am doing this on 12.0-STABLE FreeBSD 12.0-STABLE r350391 GENERIC > amd64 with the systems standard compiler. > > Is this the corrent way of doing it? > > Erich > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Aug 7 04:39:24 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FB64BE02C for ; 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Tue, 06 Aug 2019 21:39:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: mutex held in a thread which is cancelled stays busy To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20190806165429.14bc4052.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <1FC05CEB-982F-484F-9E41-5A74FF564494@freebsd.org> <20190807095521.23e79874.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> From: MJ Message-ID: Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 14:38:55 +1000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 463Jgb3B7kz4CsD X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=BIqFJyaB; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mafsys1234@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::543 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mafsys1234@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.996,0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-0.48), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-3.05), asn: 15169(-2.45), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[3.4.5.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 04:39:24 -0000 Sorry scratch that, I got confused. Doing 3 things at once. On 7/08/2019 2:32 pm, MJ wrote: > I just noticed this: > > pthread_mutexattr_getrobust (& Attr, &pres); > > Why are you passing &pres? It should be the address of > PTHREAD_MUTEX_ROBUST (or  PTHREAD_MUTEX_STALLED ?) > I would expect you should get EINVAL when testing the above statement. > > > The Freebsd manual says: > "If successful, these functions return 0." > Refer: PTHREAD_MUTEXATTR(3) > > > > On 7/08/2019 11:55 am, Erich Dollansky wrote: >> Hi, >> >> On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 20:58:30 -0400 >> Daniel Eischen wrote: >> >>>> On Aug 6, 2019, at 4:54 AM, Erich Dollansky >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> for testing purpose, I did the following. >>>> >>>> Start a thread, initialise a mutex in a global variable, lock the >>>> mutex and wait in that thread. >>>> >>>> Wait in the main program until above's thread waits and cancel it. >>>> >>>> Clean up behind the cancelled thread but leave intentional the mutex >>>> locked. >>>> >>>> I would have expected now to get an error like 'EOWNERDEAD' doing >>>> operations with that mutex. But I get 'EBUSY' as the error. >>> >>> Are you initializing the mutex as a robust mutex, via >>> pthread_mutexattr_setrobust()?  Are you using _lock() or _trylock()? >>> >>> For _trylock(), you only get EOWNERDEAD for robust mutexes.  It seems >>> that you should get EOWNERDEAD for _lock() in this case, so if that's >>> what you're doing, it sounds like it might be a bug. >>> >> I did both. One time with initialising the mutex with its defaults by >> handing over NULL as the attribute setting and one time with the >> attributes set. >> >> I use this line to set the attribute: >> >> pres = pthread_mutexattr_setrobust (& Attr, PTHREAD_MUTEX_ROBUST); >> >> The following line: >> >> pthread_mutexattr_getrobust (& Attr, &pres); >> >> Sets pres also to 1. >> >> I am doing this on 12.0-STABLE FreeBSD 12.0-STABLE r350391 GENERIC >> amd64 with the systems standard compiler. >> >> Is this the corrent way of doing it? >> >> Erich >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list >> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to >> "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >> > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Aug 7 05:06:49 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9425BBEA40; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 05:06:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deischen@freebsd.org) Received: from mail.netplex.net (mail.netplex.net [204.213.176.9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.netplex.net", Issuer "RapidSSL RSA CA 2018" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 463KHF1sQsz4F0R; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 05:06:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deischen@freebsd.org) Received: from [10.166.221.74] (mobile-107-107-57-103.mycingular.net [107.107.57.103]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netplex.net (8.15.1/8.15.1/NETPLEX) with ESMTPSA id x7756kmu004959 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 7 Aug 2019 01:06:47 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS and Clam AntiVirus (mail.netplex.net) X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (mail.netplex.net [204.213.176.9]); Wed, 07 Aug 2019 01:06:48 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: mutex held in a thread which is cancelled stays busy From: Daniel Eischen X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16G77) In-Reply-To: <20190807120734.1c55392d.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 01:06:46 -0400 Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-threads@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9AA32154-7A31-45E1-A354-3AA6A67D67AD@freebsd.org> References: <20190806165429.14bc4052.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <1FC05CEB-982F-484F-9E41-5A74FF564494@freebsd.org> <20190807095521.23e79874.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <0CEB9578-74BE-42E7-A612-9A7AE3DBD052@freebsd.org> <20190807120734.1c55392d.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> To: Erich Dollansky X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 463KHF1sQsz4F0R X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.75 / 15.00]; local_wl_from(0.00)[freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.996,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.87)[-0.871,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.89)[-0.885,0]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6062, ipnet:204.213.176.0/20, country:US] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 05:06:49 -0000 > On Aug 7, 2019, at 12:07 AM, Erich Dollansky wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 23:38:51 -0400 > Daniel Eischen wrote: >>=20 >> Yes, I believe so. I'm curious if the bug also exists in -current. >>=20 > I do not have CURRENT on any machine at the moment. I can try it tomorrow. I can come up with my own test for it, but it would b= e easier if you could send me (privately, if you want) the one you've alread= y got. -- DE= From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Aug 7 07:10:16 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1DFDC1178; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 07:10:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from kib.kiev.ua (kib.kiev.ua [IPv6:2001:470:d5e7:1::1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 463N1h27Wkz4Kr7; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 07:10:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from tom.home (kib@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kib.kiev.ua (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x777A2bv034602 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 7 Aug 2019 10:10:05 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 kib.kiev.ua x777A2bv034602 Received: (from kostik@localhost) by tom.home (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id x777A2Gv034600; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 10:10:02 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) X-Authentication-Warning: tom.home: kostik set sender to kostikbel@gmail.com using -f Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 10:10:02 +0300 From: Konstantin Belousov To: Daniel Eischen Cc: Erich Dollansky , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-threads@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mutex held in a thread which is cancelled stays busy Message-ID: <20190807071002.GF2731@kib.kiev.ua> References: <20190806165429.14bc4052.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <1FC05CEB-982F-484F-9E41-5A74FF564494@freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1FC05CEB-982F-484F-9E41-5A74FF564494@freebsd.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.1 (2019-06-15) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED,FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD,FREEMAIL_FROM, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on tom.home X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 463N1h27Wkz4Kr7 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.78 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.78)[-0.778,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.997,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 07:10:16 -0000 On Tue, Aug 06, 2019 at 08:58:30PM -0400, Daniel Eischen wrote: > > > On Aug 6, 2019, at 4:54 AM, Erich Dollansky wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > for testing purpose, I did the following. > > > > Start a thread, initialise a mutex in a global variable, lock the mutex > > and wait in that thread. > > > > Wait in the main program until above's thread waits and cancel it. > > > > Clean up behind the cancelled thread but leave intentional the mutex > > locked. > > > > I would have expected now to get an error like 'EOWNERDEAD' doing > > operations with that mutex. But I get 'EBUSY' as the error. > > Are you initializing the mutex as a robust mutex, via pthread_mutexattr_setrobust()? Are you using _lock() or _trylock()? > Robust mutexes only have special properties on the process termination. They behave same as the normal mutexes if the owning thread is terminated. > For _trylock(), you only get EOWNERDEAD for robust mutexes. It seems that you should get EOWNERDEAD for _lock() in this case, so if that's what you're doing, it sounds like it might be a bug. > > -- > DE > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-threads@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-threads > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-threads-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Aug 7 09:20:43 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD3DEC41A8; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 09:20:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from kib.kiev.ua (kib.kiev.ua [IPv6:2001:470:d5e7:1::1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 463QwB67PLz4S10; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 09:20:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from tom.home (kib@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kib.kiev.ua (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x779KZSe066777 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 7 Aug 2019 12:20:38 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 kib.kiev.ua x779KZSe066777 Received: (from kostik@localhost) by tom.home (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id x779KZjh066773; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 12:20:35 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) X-Authentication-Warning: tom.home: kostik set sender to kostikbel@gmail.com using -f Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 12:20:35 +0300 From: Konstantin Belousov To: Erich Dollansky Cc: Daniel Eischen , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-threads@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mutex held in a thread which is cancelled stays busy Message-ID: <20190807092035.GG2731@kib.kiev.ua> References: <20190806165429.14bc4052.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <1FC05CEB-982F-484F-9E41-5A74FF564494@freebsd.org> <20190807071002.GF2731@kib.kiev.ua> <20190807163757.2b5d52fa.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20190807163757.2b5d52fa.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.1 (2019-06-15) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED,FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD,FREEMAIL_FROM, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on tom.home X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 463QwB67PLz4S10 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none); spf=softfail (mx1.freebsd.org: 2001:470:d5e7:1::1 is neither permitted nor denied by domain of kostikbel@gmail.com) smtp.mailfrom=kostikbel@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.79 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; R_SPF_SOFTFAIL(0.00)[~all]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.79)[-0.788,0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-2.65), ipnet: 2001:470::/32(-4.49), asn: 6939(-2.92), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[gmail.com : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 09:20:43 -0000 On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 04:37:57PM +0800, Erich Dollansky wrote: > Hi, > > On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 10:10:02 +0300 > Konstantin Belousov wrote: > > > On Tue, Aug 06, 2019 at 08:58:30PM -0400, Daniel Eischen wrote: > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 2019, at 4:54 AM, Erich Dollansky > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > for testing purpose, I did the following. > > > > > > > > Start a thread, initialise a mutex in a global variable, lock the > > > > mutex and wait in that thread. > > > > > > > > Wait in the main program until above's thread waits and cancel it. > > > > > > > > Clean up behind the cancelled thread but leave intentional the > > > > mutex locked. > > > > > > > > I would have expected now to get an error like 'EOWNERDEAD' doing > > > > operations with that mutex. But I get 'EBUSY' as the error. > > > > > > Are you initializing the mutex as a robust mutex, via > > > pthread_mutexattr_setrobust()? Are you using _lock() or > > > _trylock()? > > Robust mutexes only have special properties on the process > > termination. They behave same as the normal mutexes if the owning > > thread is terminated. > > > man says: > > [EOWNERDEAD] The argument mutex points to a robust mutex and the > previous owning thread terminated while holding the mutex lock. So what ? It describes the case when error can be returned, but it is not required to do so. POSIX wording is the following: If mutex is a robust mutex and the process containing the owning thread terminated while holding the mutex lock, a call to pthread_mutex_lock() shall return the error value [EOWNERDEAD]. If mutex is a robust mutex and the owning thread terminated while holding the mutex lock, a call to pthread_mutex_lock( ) may return the error value [EOWNERDEAD] even if the process in which the owning thread resides has not terminated. Note the difference between shall and may. We only process robust list on the process termination. If the process is still alive, but the thread terminated, it can only happen because the process code asked for the thread termination explicitly, and then the code should be able to keep its own state. On really fatal conditions, like unhandled signals, kernel terminates the process, not a thread. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Aug 7 10:02:01 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56355C5274 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 10:02:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com) Received: from out2-4.antispamcloud.com (out2-4.antispamcloud.com [185.201.17.4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 463Rqr4fPqz4VkY; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 10:02:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com) Received: from srv31.niagahoster.com ([153.92.8.106]) by mx148.antispamcloud.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hvHUb-0009gs-Od; Wed, 07 Aug 2019 10:41:35 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sumeritec.com; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type: MIME-Version:References:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date:Sender :Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help: List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=MyNLUwuXUwg1O3A0QTsEp5Tq9c3uMmnuPbjNhd1XnHU=; b=m7A+IJeui/5QBiIXFEgZBvngSs M0+1zB2z35NIrGvOBIjB+RHb9HjCBS4KTEdV0obPXetNFkgLhtxqZwi6pZ9CEOIWDcJTenenELbXd v55tywR4LlGQp5kcui4owtqRlPgzZwdy3QSNjZTneJxZywy/MKJCEV7iWT+kBd07CSIbi/BfetL3X oU10KclAWj74wDl6ZcTac28KasIzeIMWkkO8Vqt3OhW33Y8nQX7jg7VzXiYTpQgWz15y6Q6eFOZXS GhzoLvetHnraaGAsep7jCOnQwaU9JGm3IX4n9a4IpGP4B4w57iqLKu3vOYLtCj+dVrCHDpdJMw4sW 2R9spPlQ==; Received: from [114.125.102.203] (port=34609 helo=Ryzen1.sumeritec.com) by srv31.niagahoster.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hvHSJ-0000ac-48; Wed, 07 Aug 2019 15:38:05 +0700 Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 16:37:57 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky To: Konstantin Belousov Cc: Daniel Eischen , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-threads@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mutex held in a thread which is cancelled stays busy Message-ID: <20190807163757.2b5d52fa.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> In-Reply-To: <20190807071002.GF2731@kib.kiev.ua> References: <20190806165429.14bc4052.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <1FC05CEB-982F-484F-9E41-5A74FF564494@freebsd.org> <20190807071002.GF2731@kib.kiev.ua> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; 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But I get 'EBUSY' as the error. > > > > Are you initializing the mutex as a robust mutex, via > > pthread_mutexattr_setrobust()? Are you using _lock() or > > _trylock()? > Robust mutexes only have special properties on the process > termination. They behave same as the normal mutexes if the owning > thread is terminated. > man says: [EOWNERDEAD] The argument mutex points to a robust mutex and the previous owning thread terminated while holding the mutex lock. Erich From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Aug 7 10:07:33 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FDDDC56B0; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 10:07:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deischen@freebsd.org) Received: from mail.netplex.net (mail.netplex.net [204.213.176.9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.netplex.net", Issuer "RapidSSL RSA CA 2018" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 463RyF2GQLz4W2D; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 10:07:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deischen@freebsd.org) Received: from [10.0.0.52] (ip-414b102e.ct.fixed.ntplx.com [65.75.16.46]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netplex.net (8.15.1/8.15.1/NETPLEX) with ESMTPSA id x77A7PXi011614 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 7 Aug 2019 06:07:26 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS and Clam AntiVirus (mail.netplex.net) X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (mail.netplex.net [204.213.176.9]); Wed, 07 Aug 2019 06:07:26 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: mutex held in a thread which is cancelled stays busy From: Daniel Eischen X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16G77) In-Reply-To: <20190807092035.GG2731@kib.kiev.ua> Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 06:07:25 -0400 Cc: Erich Dollansky , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-threads@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20190806165429.14bc4052.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <1FC05CEB-982F-484F-9E41-5A74FF564494@freebsd.org> <20190807071002.GF2731@kib.kiev.ua> <20190807163757.2b5d52fa.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <20190807092035.GG2731@kib.kiev.ua> To: Konstantin Belousov X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 463RyF2GQLz4W2D X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.87 / 15.00]; local_wl_from(0.00)[freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.996,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.89)[-0.890,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.986,0]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6062, ipnet:204.213.176.0/20, country:US] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 10:07:33 -0000 > On Aug 7, 2019, at 5:20 AM, Konstantin Belousov wrot= e: >=20 >> On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 04:37:57PM +0800, Erich Dollansky wrote: >> Hi, >>=20 >> On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 10:10:02 +0300 >> Konstantin Belousov wrote: >>=20 >>>> On Tue, Aug 06, 2019 at 08:58:30PM -0400, Daniel Eischen wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> On Aug 6, 2019, at 4:54 AM, Erich Dollansky >>>>> wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> Hi, >>>>>=20 >>>>> for testing purpose, I did the following. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Start a thread, initialise a mutex in a global variable, lock the >>>>> mutex and wait in that thread. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Wait in the main program until above's thread waits and cancel it. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Clean up behind the cancelled thread but leave intentional the >>>>> mutex locked. >>>>>=20 >>>>> I would have expected now to get an error like 'EOWNERDEAD' doing >>>>> operations with that mutex. But I get 'EBUSY' as the error. =20 >>>>=20 >>>> Are you initializing the mutex as a robust mutex, via >>>> pthread_mutexattr_setrobust()? Are you using _lock() or >>>> _trylock()?=20 >>> Robust mutexes only have special properties on the process >>> termination. They behave same as the normal mutexes if the owning >>> thread is terminated. >>>=20 >> man says: >>=20 >> [EOWNERDEAD] The argument mutex points to a robust mutex and the >> previous owning thread terminated while holding the mutex lock. >=20 > So what ? It describes the case when error can be returned, but it is > not required to do so. POSIX wording is the following: >=20 > If mutex is a robust mutex and the process containing the owning thread > terminated while holding the mutex lock, a call to pthread_mutex_lock() > shall return the error value [EOWNERDEAD]. If mutex is a robust mutex > and the owning thread terminated while holding the mutex lock, a call to > pthread_mutex_lock( ) may return the error value [EOWNERDEAD] even if > the process in which the owning thread resides has not terminated. >=20 > Note the difference between shall and may. We only process robust list > on the process termination. If the process is still alive, but the > thread terminated, it can only happen because the process code asked > for the thread termination explicitly, and then the code should be able > to keep its own state. On really fatal conditions, like unhandled > signals, kernel terminates the process, not a thread. But pthread_mutex_lock() should not return EBUSY; that is only for _trylock(= ). It seems to me _lock() should either return EOWNERDEAD or EDEADLK, or it= just blocks indefinitely. Erich, are you getting EBUSY for pthread_mutex_lock() or is that only for pt= hread_mutex_trylock()? -- DE= From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Aug 7 10:26:07 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 334ADC5BC3; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 10:26:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com) Received: from out1-4.antispamcloud.com (out1-4.antispamcloud.com [185.201.16.4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 463SMg0Vylz4Wxp; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 10:26:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com) Received: from srv31.niagahoster.com ([153.92.8.106]) by mx105.antispamcloud.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hvJ8r-0004v1-QK; Wed, 07 Aug 2019 12:26:04 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; 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Wed, 07 Aug 2019 17:25:56 +0700 Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 18:25:48 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky To: Daniel Eischen Cc: Konstantin Belousov , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-threads@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mutex held in a thread which is cancelled stays busy Message-ID: <20190807182548.1a8e00dd.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20190806165429.14bc4052.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <1FC05CEB-982F-484F-9E41-5A74FF564494@freebsd.org> <20190807071002.GF2731@kib.kiev.ua> <20190807163757.2b5d52fa.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <20190807092035.GG2731@kib.kiev.ua> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 X-AuthUser: freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com X-Originating-IP: 153.92.8.106 X-Spampanel-Domain: out.niagahoster.com X-Spampanel-Username: niaga X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Mvzo4OR0dZXEDF/gcnlw0YiRRkpbHZ8F3zevhEShTfypSDasLI4SayDByyq9LIhVUZbR67CQ7/vm /hHDJU4RXkTNWdUk1Ol2OGx3IfrIJKyP9eGNFz9TW9u+Jt8z2T3KSZWQ0mYy/5bX2tR2MxjY1H8+ nrJQjYNop1GreY536hkFHlF5sjR4pyrimN8WEzK+lVo9zfgzQ4Wlm3+W3UHOXwrxwXFyuo2li+Ur O0gJPwiG34hmFjpyHQ7zdFs7vhS5FpdKWY4WDTNb/mmSaM4GPufHzJ6mVE7ewsipSVIfs4Zabjyj 3k9kwKzAqKFfV4UrpuYtsVhg3f/l2/mWu1Athhptu6CedWZCBcUv302F5j093s+AnbV2j8Ow/hRj vbRpAPk7YPj0OKe3lzpnlKaR3sSTXH+3izU4BB1VoFVxTkwhEWyJzIkwSFAW0Pw8uiKe7bgNQRm1 OeEwNfs/X7KNpm7JN07EVzkxDwUeUuKljznUAK0QEz1Q7JH7dxrZvW/0mJfHjaTCzOp63BMLs0qd SISbE1l0jCSqwqiEbnL4lT5T25bh8NcJDK50bxVgqERZsnxNd3HGmXwqaXdfIhxtGD/BNM8813zo gpOdGRAGcQuhFJ7oKehaoNVXSqhCqA/e/iH+i0krVjPg4j89ZZyO7hkDJRaaICR2rDamAVeZMV4D 7fKzXHKOS7epLutw5JLMllEIbIkVe06B7dx0jjZzY3McN6qoXPjenLhIOF1oeRbB0q/OPFFQP2A6 EGLaMo/P36WwUlIQ90Mu0vcNHQ67Fu4moKK5thEF3GBtlksvmTvbXxovJEd6WRmONQXAxSHs5oQB 9puMu8tmNfaWmneAreVHDK/d/D3POXDyR0+CAyjE04Qui3pq/43TyI+2Xq3sVLmn9E+h0mHeaLQF ksyUubCmFQOolhlV/ZRA5nHv4OPW7VqBA9oSlBsbfuqhpOn0f0yWjB8eiHqtxayLndn0kW27yM9f 1+Apz1RqILIQtFMEwq5bRwGe7jud07hsv+XycI/FXhRSOmUQhy9SmS81uJzRPA8gEmeeAc/z3AcE lOvzLPPdXnk9dTX03mZY8tOiLbdHLMfIRuttE8nKqCsLgpnckpWaLvahyBjmQxBKOzuWmKu/Exva /4bO4tpXcmDOqDCHuaY1ySl1jqLk9nhzO4M6gaq1aRjXtWVzuqGnWQc= X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine10.antispamcloud.com X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 463SMg0Vylz4Wxp X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.94 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.94)[-0.945,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.997,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 10:26:07 -0000 Hi, On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 06:07:25 -0400 Daniel Eischen wrote: > > On Aug 7, 2019, at 5:20 AM, Konstantin Belousov > > wrote: > >> On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 04:37:57PM +0800, Erich Dollansky wrote: > >> Hi, > >> > >> On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 10:10:02 +0300 > >> Konstantin Belousov wrote: > >> > >>>> On Tue, Aug 06, 2019 at 08:58:30PM -0400, Daniel Eischen wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> On Aug 6, 2019, at 4:54 AM, Erich Dollansky > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Hi, > >>>>> > >>>>> for testing purpose, I did the following. > >>>>> > >>>>> Start a thread, initialise a mutex in a global variable, lock > >>>>> the mutex and wait in that thread. > >>>>> > >>>>> Wait in the main program until above's thread waits and cancel > >>>>> it. > >>>>> > >>>>> Clean up behind the cancelled thread but leave intentional the > >>>>> mutex locked. > >>>>> > >>>>> I would have expected now to get an error like 'EOWNERDEAD' > >>>>> doing operations with that mutex. But I get 'EBUSY' as the > >>>>> error. > >>>> > >>>> Are you initializing the mutex as a robust mutex, via > >>>> pthread_mutexattr_setrobust()? Are you using _lock() or > >>>> _trylock()? > >>> Robust mutexes only have special properties on the process > >>> termination. They behave same as the normal mutexes if the owning > >>> thread is terminated. > >>> > >> man says: > >> > >> [EOWNERDEAD] The argument mutex points to a robust mutex and the > >> previous owning thread terminated while holding the mutex lock. > > > > So what ? It describes the case when error can be returned, but it > > is not required to do so. POSIX wording is the following: > > > > If mutex is a robust mutex and the process containing the owning > > thread terminated while holding the mutex lock, a call to > > pthread_mutex_lock() shall return the error value [EOWNERDEAD]. If > > mutex is a robust mutex and the owning thread terminated while > > holding the mutex lock, a call to pthread_mutex_lock( ) may return > > the error value [EOWNERDEAD] even if the process in which the > > owning thread resides has not terminated. > > > > Note the difference between shall and may. We only process robust > > list on the process termination. If the process is still alive, > > but the thread terminated, it can only happen because the process > > code asked for the thread termination explicitly, and then the code > > should be able to keep its own state. On really fatal conditions, > > like unhandled signals, kernel terminates the process, not a > > thread. > > But pthread_mutex_lock() should not return EBUSY; that is only for > _trylock(). It seems to me _lock() should either return EOWNERDEAD > or EDEADLK, or it just blocks indefinitely. > > Erich, are you getting EBUSY for pthread_mutex_lock() or is that only > for pthread_mutex_trylock()? > EBUSY is only returned when I call 'pthread_mutex_trylock'. The other one just hangs. Give me a bit if time and I will send you then a test program which is extracted from my test environment. Not that the error stems from very own test environment. Erich From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Aug 7 10:52:14 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ABDBC6691 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 10:52:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com) Received: from out2-4.antispamcloud.com (out2-4.antispamcloud.com [185.201.17.4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 463Sxn4xcHz4YZN; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 10:52:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com) Received: from srv31.niagahoster.com ([153.92.8.106]) by mx128.antispamcloud.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hvIO0-000FX6-Uf; Wed, 07 Aug 2019 11:37:39 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sumeritec.com; 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FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sumeritec.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.18)[0.184,0]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.06)[0.065,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 10:52:14 -0000 Hi, On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 12:20:35 +0300 Konstantin Belousov wrote: > On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 04:37:57PM +0800, Erich Dollansky wrote: > > Hi, > > > > On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 10:10:02 +0300 > > Konstantin Belousov wrote: > > > > > On Tue, Aug 06, 2019 at 08:58:30PM -0400, Daniel Eischen wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 2019, at 4:54 AM, Erich Dollansky > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > for testing purpose, I did the following. > > > > > > > > > > Start a thread, initialise a mutex in a global variable, lock > > > > > the mutex and wait in that thread. > > > > > > > > > > Wait in the main program until above's thread waits and > > > > > cancel it. > > > > > > > > > > Clean up behind the cancelled thread but leave intentional the > > > > > mutex locked. > > > > > > > > > > I would have expected now to get an error like 'EOWNERDEAD' > > > > > doing operations with that mutex. But I get 'EBUSY' as the > > > > > error. > > > > > > > > Are you initializing the mutex as a robust mutex, via > > > > pthread_mutexattr_setrobust()? Are you using _lock() or > > > > _trylock()? > > > Robust mutexes only have special properties on the process > > > termination. They behave same as the normal mutexes if the owning > > > thread is terminated. > > > > > man says: > > > > [EOWNERDEAD] The argument mutex points to a robust mutex and the > > previous owning thread terminated while holding the mutex lock. > > So what ? It describes the case when error can be returned, but it is > not required to do so. POSIX wording is the following: > what does POSIX matter when the manual of the operating system the program is running on states something else? Erich From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Aug 7 12:51:28 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5C5AAA602; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 12:51:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from martin@lispworks.com) Received: from lwfs1-cam.cam.lispworks.com (mail.lispworks.com [46.17.166.21]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 463WbM48LNz3CPx; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 12:51:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from martin@lispworks.com) Received: from higson.cam.lispworks.com (higson.cam.lispworks.com [192.168.1.7]) by lwfs1-cam.cam.lispworks.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id x77CpNis037004; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 13:51:23 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from martin@lispworks.com) Received: from higson.cam.lispworks.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by higson.cam.lispworks.com (8.14.4) id x77CpMUY024560; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 13:51:22 +0100 Received: (from martin@localhost) by higson.cam.lispworks.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) id x77CpMfL024556; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 13:51:22 +0100 Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 13:51:22 +0100 Message-Id: <201908071251.x77CpMfL024556@higson.cam.lispworks.com> From: Martin Simmons To: Konstantin Belousov CC: freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com, deischen@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-threads@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <20190807092035.GG2731@kib.kiev.ua> (message from Konstantin Belousov on Wed, 7 Aug 2019 12:20:35 +0300) Subject: Re: mutex held in a thread which is cancelled stays busy References: <20190806165429.14bc4052.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <1FC05CEB-982F-484F-9E41-5A74FF564494@freebsd.org> <20190807071002.GF2731@kib.kiev.ua> <20190807163757.2b5d52fa.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <20190807092035.GG2731@kib.kiev.ua> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 463WbM48LNz3CPx X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of martin@lispworks.com has no SPF policy when checking 46.17.166.21) smtp.mailfrom=martin@lispworks.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.41 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.24)[-0.237,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[lispworks.com]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.35)[0.353,0]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.69)[-0.692,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[21.166.17.46.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:51055, ipnet:46.17.166.0/24, country:GB]; IP_SCORE(-0.02)[country: GB(-0.08)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 12:51:28 -0000 >>>>> On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 12:20:35 +0300, Konstantin Belousov said: > DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 kib.kiev.ua x779KZSe066777 > > On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 04:37:57PM +0800, Erich Dollansky wrote: > > Hi, > > > > On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 10:10:02 +0300 > > Konstantin Belousov wrote: > > > > > On Tue, Aug 06, 2019 at 08:58:30PM -0400, Daniel Eischen wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 2019, at 4:54 AM, Erich Dollansky > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > for testing purpose, I did the following. > > > > > > > > > > Start a thread, initialise a mutex in a global variable, lock the > > > > > mutex and wait in that thread. > > > > > > > > > > Wait in the main program until above's thread waits and cancel it. > > > > > > > > > > Clean up behind the cancelled thread but leave intentional the > > > > > mutex locked. > > > > > > > > > > I would have expected now to get an error like 'EOWNERDEAD' doing > > > > > operations with that mutex. But I get 'EBUSY' as the error. > > > > > > > > Are you initializing the mutex as a robust mutex, via > > > > pthread_mutexattr_setrobust()? Are you using _lock() or > > > > _trylock()? > > > Robust mutexes only have special properties on the process > > > termination. They behave same as the normal mutexes if the owning > > > thread is terminated. > > > > > man says: > > > > [EOWNERDEAD] The argument mutex points to a robust mutex and the > > previous owning thread terminated while holding the mutex lock. > > So what ? It describes the case when error can be returned, but it is > not required to do so. POSIX wording is the following: > > If mutex is a robust mutex and the process containing the owning thread > terminated while holding the mutex lock, a call to pthread_mutex_lock() > shall return the error value [EOWNERDEAD]. If mutex is a robust mutex > and the owning thread terminated while holding the mutex lock, a call to > pthread_mutex_lock( ) may return the error value [EOWNERDEAD] even if > the process in which the owning thread resides has not terminated. > > Note the difference between shall and may. That is clear in POSIX, so should the FreeBSD man page be changed to say "process containing the owning thread" at least? Currently the section starts with: The pthread_mutex_lock() function will fail if: and the word "will" reads to me like a "shall", not a "may". Code relies on this interpretation of "will" in other man pages, e.g. for [EWOULDBLOCK] in accept(2). __Martin From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Aug 7 13:39:44 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1661AB759 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 13:39:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from amelie@organic-search-ranking.com) Received: from server1.moon.ygto.com (server1.moon.ygto.com [80.211.98.135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 463Xg35CTdz3Fvx for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 13:39:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from amelie@organic-search-ranking.com) Received: from WS114 (unknown [223.179.138.153]) by server1.moon.ygto.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 1A2E3318A for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 09:39:32 -0400 (EDT) From: "Amelie Jones" To: Subject: Website Design and Development Solution... Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 19:04:03 +0530 Message-ID: <570301d54d25$92f7cde0$b8e769a0$@organic-search-ranking.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AdVNJKfm0khw4fUzQBqxQlWWliSRFA== Content-Language: en-us X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 463Xg35CTdz3Fvx X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=softfail (mx1.freebsd.org: 80.211.98.135 is neither permitted nor denied by domain of amelie@organic-search-ranking.com) smtp.mailfrom=amelie@organic-search-ranking.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.03 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.07)[-0.067,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.18)[0.177,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; R_SPF_SOFTFAIL(0.00)[~all]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.63)[0.633,0]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[organic-search-ranking.com]; IP_SCORE(0.38)[ipnet: 80.211.0.0/17(-0.08), asn: 31034(1.96), country: IT(0.03)]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[153.138.179.223.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:31034, ipnet:80.211.0.0/17, country:IT]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 13:39:44 -0000 Hi You are awesome. 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From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Aug 7 16:37:46 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A515EAFAF8 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 16:37:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hw@gc-24.de) Received: from mail.g4yg.de (mail.g4yg.de [85.16.78.202]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 463ccT37Wtz3wlC for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 16:37:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hw@gc-24.de) Received: from hw.v.h.gc-24.de ([192.168.220.17]) by mail.g4yg.de with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hvOwS-0007oB-0n for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Wed, 07 Aug 2019 18:37:36 +0200 Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 18:37:35 +0200 From: hw To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: howto allow anyone to poweroff? Message-Id: <20190807183735.f4a87306c851426be6b799ca@gc-24.de> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 463ccT37Wtz3wlC X-Spamd-Bar: +++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of hw@gc-24.de has no SPF policy when checking 85.16.78.202) smtp.mailfrom=hw@gc-24.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [5.52 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(1.00)[0.997,0]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[gc-24.de]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.58)[0.584,0]; IP_SCORE(0.54)[asn: 9145(2.71), country: DE(-0.01)]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.99)[0.994,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:9145, ipnet:85.16.0.0/16, country:DE]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 16:37:46 -0000 Hi, is there a way to allow ordinary users to poweroff a machine? I'd like to automatically poweroff PXE booted clients once the user that was logged in logs out after using it. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Aug 7 16:45:29 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA4DCB048B for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 16:45:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@boosten.org) Received: from smtpq2.mnd.mail.iss.as9143.net (smtpq2.mnd.mail.iss.as9143.net [212.54.34.165]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 463cnN0cz9z3ym3 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 16:45:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@boosten.org) Received: from [212.54.34.120] (helo=smtp12.mnd.mail.iss.as9143.net) by smtpq2.mnd.mail.iss.as9143.net with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1hvP41-0006ss-7H; Wed, 07 Aug 2019 18:45:25 +0200 Received: from 84-25-247-31.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl ([84.25.247.31] helo=smtp.boosten.org) by smtp12.mnd.mail.iss.as9143.net with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1hvP41-0002xw-33; Wed, 07 Aug 2019 18:45:25 +0200 Received: from mailserver.boosten.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.boosten.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD20814FB0; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 18:45:24 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at boosten.org Received: from smtp.boosten.org ([127.0.0.1]) by mailserver.boosten.org (mailserver.boosten.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id smnlmkKiTMI7; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 18:45:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from amon.boosten.org (Amon.boosten.org [192.168.13.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.boosten.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3504B14F9A; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 18:45:23 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: Re: howto allow anyone to poweroff? From: freebsd@boosten.org In-Reply-To: <20190807183735.f4a87306c851426be6b799ca@gc-24.de> Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 18:45:22 +0200 Cc: Paul Macdonald via freebsd-questions Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: <20190807183735.f4a87306c851426be6b799ca@gc-24.de> To: hw X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-SourceIP: 84.25.247.31 X-Ziggo-spambar: / X-Ziggo-spamscore: 0.0 X-Ziggo-spamreport: CMAE Analysis: v=2.3 cv=febTNHYF c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=JWBJsaPp29SgP5DpYRBqZw==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=FmdZ9Uzk2mMA:10 a=YhRuEv_wzg885SJyQs4A:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=RTHe1UdKBsEA:10 X-Ziggo-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Flag: No X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 463cnN0cz9z3ym3 X-Spamd-Bar: ----- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.43 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[boosten.org:s=myselector]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:212.54.32.0/19]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[boosten.org:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_NO_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[boosten.org,quarantine]; IP_SCORE(-2.83)[ip: (-8.28), ipnet: 212.54.32.0/20(-3.70), asn: 33915(-2.17), country: NL(0.01)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[165.34.54.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:33915, ipnet:212.54.32.0/20, country:NL]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[31.247.25.84.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 16:45:29 -0000 > Op 7 aug. 2019, om 18:37 heeft hw het volgende geschreven: > > Hi, > > is there a way to allow ordinary users to poweroff a machine? sudo Peter From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Aug 7 16:54:54 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8269B0BA5 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 16:54:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 463d0F3nZhz40j6 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 16:54:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.223.163.215]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue009 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1N49Yn-1iLlrl0OdF-0108jD; Wed, 07 Aug 2019 18:54:48 +0200 Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 18:54:45 +0200 From: Polytropon To: hw Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: howto allow anyone to poweroff? Message-Id: <20190807185445.62b59f2f.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20190807183735.f4a87306c851426be6b799ca@gc-24.de> References: <20190807183735.f4a87306c851426be6b799ca@gc-24.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:uugVeL9tmjKWog8iTD2g2DbzwD6gHuIMhjkRk7bGzLQyjQqCN+m JOyNOHU0bJhu+YdCFpjb/gayr+IMpYW1FeLm7vTYn+cgoLxrpGx5X4XFfW3cFgZrDrXvH/A F7jVN5VNvscQmuc/Lxk8TJLL6Xqkh5utDCLMiPKEKi4yHfNvKRJzx6FnZMzilaBU/WYA1jZ FO6Ja9NWtWSy/xtuslYUQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:Ct+5soIIGGs=:MStibevkGfqNbIODlFgv5K Y3ubxhx8ivBAlOWl7aTLN8TQyTCUwwKr1jSllUvxAyp8+qTvUGnXk/UKF5hWmef0SB72MA2M1 6kmSthD7sYKcGK3S4LLvzBh580cnfV7SInst+L96Z8kAQP6KZbUG3MT8WW4I1YWBtDUUYOQ19 nhv0TzdFDIhcAO6puPJIn0z0q2kfZCvmc50szYA3XZaSVPaHpzWRe6rZomKItB0idf/7AWCJx TvkUJJmPRRfke4/dMXQkOKDbmJtC2eDWTHCchr6ORzRQCKeN8yM4Cj63ooXGUqCzpZUi4rfH5 Zn/EF+21Jhu9FzwMbnbPLSJL7gu88as6Id2US7YfFPThTFXr09hz5x1O05Z6Hpog3UzJQCpB4 3SksnqWjLF1I4hJM9n0xSfdap8wPQKiWYcji9kTb/67aLUbxu9Labt9ABAz4KlS5he6FHSoVj hcE+i8hDtHCWxzP02xJ0KQcbE/yGWxGss7W+AW4LSV34xZ9if/ydWNdRcVJ48rH2paoIFoh6J NlCXNUVGsO5xolFqjLlLziiSnMPwikMR6dbvgRHvyZnJedwxP1xlyu4LuF9IkcL9Rxe+yuOU3 g6DGCk/iGjEuI9K8u3E6+Rm+aq4OpKTA8QHqxBd6KLre/xjTC3yZP8IaqbETwTkIl0xJG+3Jf tfr+FOag4/eSlJYgRUk6eoAUOtNCmEa+xqopx840+CYyENunZMGw1Ij+wCva/LY+UIkFNkJma p1JqgptnZZMEJaGd0wd2JA9Gr/KsLN+pLtsf+3NMm5CKkmoYxvw4xZ3M+Jw= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 463d0F3nZhz40j6 X-Spamd-Bar: ++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.131) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [6.76 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[215.163.223.94.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.84)[0.837,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.99)[0.991,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.97)[0.974,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[131.126.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(0.55)[ip: (1.87), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.38), asn: 8560(2.28), country: DE(-0.01)] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 16:54:54 -0000 On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 18:37:35 +0200, hw wrote: > Hi, > > is there a way to allow ordinary users to poweroff a machine? I'd > like to automatically poweroff PXE booted clients once the user that > was logged in logs out after using it. There are basically two ways: Way 1 is to add the users to the group "operator". This, however, allows them to do other things too which you might not be interested in allowing them. Way 2 is to add a program like sudo or super to your installation and allow the users to use _one_ specific program ("poweroff only"). This is probably the safer way. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Aug 7 17:26:34 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01316B1C1C; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 17:26:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deischen@freebsd.org) Received: from mail.netplex.net (mail.netplex.net [204.213.176.9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.netplex.net", Issuer "RapidSSL RSA CA 2018" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 463dhn4jj4z42yB; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 17:26:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deischen@freebsd.org) Received: from [10.0.0.52] (ip-414b102e.ct.fixed.ntplx.com [65.75.16.46]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netplex.net (8.15.1/8.15.1/NETPLEX) with ESMTPSA id x77HQVR7022963 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 7 Aug 2019 13:26:31 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS and Clam AntiVirus (mail.netplex.net) X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (mail.netplex.net [204.213.176.9]); Wed, 07 Aug 2019 13:26:32 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: mutex held in a thread which is cancelled stays busy From: Daniel Eischen X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16G77) In-Reply-To: <20190807182548.1a8e00dd.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 13:26:31 -0400 Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-threads@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20190806165429.14bc4052.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <1FC05CEB-982F-484F-9E41-5A74FF564494@freebsd.org> <20190807071002.GF2731@kib.kiev.ua> <20190807163757.2b5d52fa.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <20190807092035.GG2731@kib.kiev.ua> <20190807182548.1a8e00dd.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> To: Erich Dollansky X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 463dhn4jj4z42yB X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.84 / 15.00]; local_wl_from(0.00)[freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.994,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.987,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.86)[-0.858,0]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6062, ipnet:204.213.176.0/20, country:US] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 17:26:34 -0000 > On Aug 7, 2019, at 6:25 AM, Erich Dollansky wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 06:07:25 -0400 > Daniel Eischen wrote: >=20 >>> On Aug 7, 2019, at 5:20 AM, Konstantin Belousov >>> wrote:=20 >>>> On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 04:37:57PM +0800, Erich Dollansky wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>>=20 >>>> On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 10:10:02 +0300 >>>> Konstantin Belousov wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 06, 2019 at 08:58:30PM -0400, Daniel Eischen wrote: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> On Aug 6, 2019, at 4:54 AM, Erich Dollansky >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> for testing purpose, I did the following. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Start a thread, initialise a mutex in a global variable, lock >>>>>>> the mutex and wait in that thread. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Wait in the main program until above's thread waits and cancel >>>>>>> it. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Clean up behind the cancelled thread but leave intentional the >>>>>>> mutex locked. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> I would have expected now to get an error like 'EOWNERDEAD' >>>>>>> doing operations with that mutex. But I get 'EBUSY' as the >>>>>>> error. =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Are you initializing the mutex as a robust mutex, via >>>>>> pthread_mutexattr_setrobust()? Are you using _lock() or >>>>>> _trylock()? =20 >>>>> Robust mutexes only have special properties on the process >>>>> termination. They behave same as the normal mutexes if the owning >>>>> thread is terminated. >>>>>=20 >>>> man says: >>>>=20 >>>> [EOWNERDEAD] The argument mutex points to a robust mutex and the >>>> previous owning thread terminated while holding the mutex lock. =20 >>>=20 >>> So what ? It describes the case when error can be returned, but it >>> is not required to do so. POSIX wording is the following: >>>=20 >>> If mutex is a robust mutex and the process containing the owning >>> thread terminated while holding the mutex lock, a call to >>> pthread_mutex_lock() shall return the error value [EOWNERDEAD]. If >>> mutex is a robust mutex and the owning thread terminated while >>> holding the mutex lock, a call to pthread_mutex_lock( ) may return >>> the error value [EOWNERDEAD] even if the process in which the >>> owning thread resides has not terminated. >>>=20 >>> Note the difference between shall and may. We only process robust >>> list on the process termination. If the process is still alive, >>> but the thread terminated, it can only happen because the process >>> code asked for the thread termination explicitly, and then the code >>> should be able to keep its own state. On really fatal conditions, >>> like unhandled signals, kernel terminates the process, not a >>> thread. =20 >>=20 >> But pthread_mutex_lock() should not return EBUSY; that is only for >> _trylock(). It seems to me _lock() should either return EOWNERDEAD >> or EDEADLK, or it just blocks indefinitely. >>=20 >> Erich, are you getting EBUSY for pthread_mutex_lock() or is that only >> for pthread_mutex_trylock()? >>=20 > EBUSY is only returned when I call 'pthread_mutex_trylock'. The other > one just hangs. In this case, I think FreeBSD is behaving correctly. I think perhaps the on= ly problem is that the man page isn't reflecting the POSIX wording. -- DE= From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Aug 7 17:33:20 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 786A9B2076 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 17:33:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hw@gc-24.de) Received: from mail.g4yg.de (mail.g4yg.de [85.16.78.202]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 463drb1FXzz43Qh for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 17:33:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hw@gc-24.de) Received: from hw.v.h.gc-24.de ([192.168.220.17]) by mail.g4yg.de with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hvPoK-0008DA-Bx for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Wed, 07 Aug 2019 19:33:16 +0200 Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 19:33:16 +0200 From: hw To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: howto set xrdp character encoding? Message-Id: <20190807193316.3b0143dc64e207d7f09d7e23@gc-24.de> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 463drb1FXzz43Qh X-Spamd-Bar: +++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of hw@gc-24.de has no SPF policy when checking 85.16.78.202) smtp.mailfrom=hw@gc-24.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [5.82 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[gc-24.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(1.00)[0.996,0]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.90)[0.904,0]; IP_SCORE(0.53)[asn: 9145(2.65), country: DE(-0.01)]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.99)[0.993,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:9145, ipnet:85.16.0.0/16, country:DE]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 17:33:20 -0000 Hi, how can I set a character encoding for the environment for users loggin in to xrdp sessions? Exporting environment variables from the startwm.sh used by xrdp doesn't seen to have an effect in that fvwm displays text in menues that contain Umlaute garbled. After restarting fvwm, the text is no longer garbled. What might be going wrong here? From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Aug 7 17:57:54 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D008B2E6E for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 17:57:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from woodbrian77@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ot1-x332.google.com (mail-ot1-x332.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::332]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 463fNx3Q56z458v for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 17:57:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from woodbrian77@gmail.com) Received: by mail-ot1-x332.google.com with SMTP id j19so31128767otq.2 for ; Wed, 07 Aug 2019 10:57:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=lSbLFTV5L2x+EQ0iCrPDj3/rRRAmijZEIBac1nuUtfM=; b=XXtcuPODF2eqRsokC9zj/WVALwkGe4LXV4OSztfSvvB3Ic8PDDYztSoU64MSNr/NsL afum4QBm2C9mGRx7cZ6RYvgt5R1dcj2n9MCer3W5du4DezGumsl68NaNL00OftGXSGdN HPpUswg/wxl+kZCWQNUqNYM4BSmbm6qAJK/Ixst+rdaieWjFrCsypRD51WX/hQ6y6usw Ry31g9m8A3BbsQrSNtfkq5piRGNBSiG/Yq0a3cv4WiYoEIobh7Wq2LF/48r3AOfCON1s CDF/BVeLpR9jNbJ553KAMD1EbUqWcSEe2vR8XEgBagrklLGUPyyYXg4niETApypj94qQ pgNA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=lSbLFTV5L2x+EQ0iCrPDj3/rRRAmijZEIBac1nuUtfM=; b=nWe66KZyTmN+5O/raPJL7aPtCJrTmsUwtkL0yebPX8SQYkmCXtGS/J+gPTjR/9WN8f orcZ5IjnUeDBSDKxWxC/RV4iqMaGA19Rj12XWxs41U1Eaqxm9urtEYBJsnBAGibqBzyC sOZjpe/hxgK8Or/yhp/DuTi4lRjweFfB2eLPhxY0FPa484pOuLXcFz39C9ZnfKG7q+4U YWz7KQvn5MMp8DRAG1FNJlvB29d9fnzDx3rgKwCsuFs6LiABL1PeETG/lAhbknOTJOp6 aBug3QOGxs2DnZBwRN0PiG4x6YQPakyysk6r1gfJbO3uHoRtkoVy7Ukp/fyFwcmy8hiV zqVg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXu5NX/PkwRKNWb8JLUlQTVScx5K2Zhobj/5sC0WbNM76IBnZLo omehAo3hRHNa7hrwMfShDyCP00JZcaCMLLPnvo85azAetwA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxkEKGSE4ykh8gOdG+RHHWeRDep9jQjiqx8y1MnH7JRlyZLGZmOQEAom00vDB4Nk1uUrQeB3+7BIwrkekvR7JU= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:88c6:: with SMTP id i6mr745607iol.107.1565200672047; Wed, 07 Aug 2019 10:57:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Brian Wood Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 12:57:42 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Raspberry To: FreeBSD Questions X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 463fNx3Q56z458v X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=XXtcuPOD; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of woodbrian77@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::332 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=woodbrian77@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[3]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-9.42), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-3.03), asn: 15169(-2.43), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2.3.3.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 17:57:54 -0000 Shalom I found a site that has info about running FreeBSD 11 on Raspberry Pi's. Is anyone running FreeBSD 12 or 13 on Raspberry Pi's? Also is anyone self-hosting their site/service on a Raspberry Pi? Thanks in advance. Brian Ebenezer Enterprises - Enjoying programming again. https://github.com/Ebenezer-group/onwards From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Aug 7 19:09:49 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86E62B4AAC for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 19:09:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jtrigg@huiekin.org) Received: from argent.heraldsnet.org (smtp.pegasuscomputing.com [64.237.40.43]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "pegasuscomputing.com", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 463gzw4fW6z49w9 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 19:09:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jtrigg@huiekin.org) Received: from [100.80.192.242] (52.sub-174-205-4.myvzw.com [174.205.4.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by argent.heraldsnet.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 34EA66B6967; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 15:09:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 15:09:38 -0400 User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: <20190807185445.62b59f2f.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20190807183735.f4a87306c851426be6b799ca@gc-24.de> <20190807185445.62b59f2f.freebsd@edvax.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: howto allow anyone to poweroff? To: Polytropon ,hw CC: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org From: Jim Trigg Message-ID: <2756FCF5-417A-471F-9562-BB957FD936A6@huiekin.org> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 463gzw4fW6z49w9 X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jtrigg@huiekin.org designates 64.237.40.43 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jtrigg@huiekin.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.49 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[52.4.205.174.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.66)[-0.663,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.45)[-0.447,0]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[1]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.07)[-0.068,0]; IP_SCORE(-0.04)[asn: 20473(-0.13), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:20473, ipnet:64.237.32.0/19, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 19:09:49 -0000 Way three is to chmod u+s,a+x /sbin/poweroff (or is it /usr/sbin/poweroff?)= =2E Thanks, Jim Trigg On August 7, 2019 12:54:45 PM EDT, Polytropon wrote: >On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 18:37:35 +0200, hw wrote: >> Hi, >>=20 >> is there a way to allow ordinary users to poweroff a machine? I'd >> like to automatically poweroff PXE booted clients once the user that >> was logged in logs out after using it=2E > >There are basically two ways: > >Way 1 is to add the users to the group "operator"=2E This, however, >allows them to do other things too which you might not be interested >in allowing them=2E > >Way 2 is to add a program like sudo or super to your installation >and allow the users to use _one_ specific program ("poweroff only")=2E >This is probably the safer way=2E > > > >--=20 >Polytropon >Magdeburg, Germany >Happy FreeBSD user since 4=2E0 >Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, =2E=2E=2E >_______________________________________________ >freebsd-questions@freebsd=2Eorg mailing list >https://lists=2Efreebsd=2Eorg/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions >To unsubscribe, send any mail to >"freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd=2Eorg" --=20 Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Aug 7 19:59:28 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B9D2B5DAA for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 19:59:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 463j5C0dhmz4Fbc for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 19:59:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.223.163.215]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue010 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MQuwR-1hibvz0Knf-00Nz9w; Wed, 07 Aug 2019 21:59:20 +0200 Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 21:59:18 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Jim Trigg Cc: hw , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: howto allow anyone to poweroff? Message-Id: <20190807215918.95d801ab.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <2756FCF5-417A-471F-9562-BB957FD936A6@huiekin.org> References: <20190807183735.f4a87306c851426be6b799ca@gc-24.de> <20190807185445.62b59f2f.freebsd@edvax.de> <2756FCF5-417A-471F-9562-BB957FD936A6@huiekin.org> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:wu3KK0YjEQF5m+uIuZRMEioBIBCuQRrX6ICF+3aOm2Cf/a/lo82 tBHGhquMLrO3orwRZGZTfgfc+BtTi1NzRYJYDAe8PsZOuEilaM+81BbasymsZhqlCgCu2YJ 8X0+kh8MPwIMaH1LG15EM8JsTqwKGlEm+g+zSK7WX5tRG/yyAJkn/x9mbNQEGviwxe8xMxl QW/YHWzixkDBVlh9DkP2w== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:MZqFP/WrKKc=:r6npYN7YRrPmgNhT8h1tgt T6CFXCv9k0WCpyK5Wd9xHvLckY/gF+Fx6JrhEHikr5ed8OpTQzWtai+CQe83qD2FNszjpHbSQ +x75a3EzBocO6cnSdqk5dyKCV+vd5V3P97TlQBMiQj7gt6eZjY82Sl68HHFEFr9RL61uxKI+4 6pZhQfgWPhPT3U+4cq+v2Mp+K8fwsOAa/bCIw65SoTJEPaojHWdcMJoqWg1rOEg0eVcUWEyws lBf5jHywgJXLmx22z9cepfmwRTcLxnFfjIINU3M0IgJXOZk9/tCgmryhTc/pj8DmABmeWwLwX yukesu6wP49ha8Rbsspg2cmOV48vygx+//+oCJ+/UObXYUe7gZCOds1HMN5sr0pMBHjtmpWxE oogp11fb6D61TVyU21hdRrBdgz+2fVZKo2f3REb0hMycRym0P+z6i2T5Tgbq2bfmk5c3VJg9x ox+jVdkKGUS7o5pzFIloLiRxywX5xHDtfkzMs1PNWTBFyBZF+A3zRXO0yNOcgJTqTTFUpAjs6 uBUNmWeKpdRvvimAOVmc1T//+YDTMsY7kFufezybCMfTyRbr002G0my5jrBaDeW1zZNxmSZ+C tDty22A1ETPBtr9dPmZRuP9jLBH5CmVudE3Tbsx/FdmYmRowcicB/0Zl5Rb9rB+Tism+wPb0L IiXMe/8MqbLCVFyKGSnva7DW2ryo/gR7HRum/Kn4DNWshcb2Paxckk1B/w6zWe6ADgfj8HdQG oo+nfhrcR7XUIGrCkwYj/XP52R2frIWp7RMXrIAE0SS03Is/7Afvb069keo= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 463j5C0dhmz4Fbc X-Spamd-Bar: +++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.187) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [5.30 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.47)[-0.471,0]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[215.163.223.94.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.97)[0.975,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.96)[0.965,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[187.126.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[187.126.227.212.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(0.43)[ip: (1.24), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.37), asn: 8560(2.28), country: DE(-0.01)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 19:59:28 -0000 On Wed, 07 Aug 2019 15:09:38 -0400, Jim Trigg wrote: > Way three is to chmod u+s,a+x /sbin/poweroff (or is it /usr/sbin/poweroff?). Let's see: % which poweroff /sbin/poweroff Yes, that's an option, too. But like the 1st way I mentioned, it might be more risky than needed, because now even non- interactive users (i. e., programs, daemons, services, etc. running on the system) can cause a shutdown. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Aug 7 23:12:18 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0B0BBB0B8 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 23:12:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com) Received: from out2-4.antispamcloud.com (out2-4.antispamcloud.com [185.201.17.4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 463nMj3077z4TFd for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 23:12:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com) Received: from srv31.niagahoster.com ([153.92.8.106]) by mx128.antispamcloud.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hvV6K-0019Ko-2f; Thu, 08 Aug 2019 01:12:14 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sumeritec.com; 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RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-0.02)[ip: (1.45), ipnet: 185.201.17.0/24(-1.34), asn: 49544(-0.25), country: NL(0.01)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 23:12:19 -0000 Hi, we have a number of Raspberries on FreeBSD 12. Erich On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 12:57:42 -0500 Brian Wood wrote: > Shalom > > I found a site that has info about running FreeBSD 11 on > Raspberry Pi's. Is anyone running FreeBSD 12 or 13 on > Raspberry Pi's? Also is anyone self-hosting their site/service > on a Raspberry Pi? Thanks in advance. > > > Brian > Ebenezer Enterprises - Enjoying programming again. > https://github.com/Ebenezer-group/onwards > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Aug 8 01:24:39 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A391BE40E for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 01:24:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mjose00@optusnet.com.au) Received: from mail105.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail105.syd.optusnet.com.au [211.29.132.249]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 463rJN4Ck7z4bVD for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 01:24:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mjose00@optusnet.com.au) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (C-210-10-139-213.can.connect.net.au [210.10.139.213]) (Authenticated sender: mjose00@optusnet.com.au) by mail105.syd.optusnet.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DACB83614FF; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 11:24:31 +1000 (AEST) Subject: Re: Raspberry To: Brian Wood , FreeBSD Questions References: From: MJ Message-ID: <3064722a-2b98-4001-a6a2-5d9bc49eea49@optusnet.com.au> Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 11:24:04 +1000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Optus-CM-Score: 0 X-Optus-CM-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=D+Q3ErZj c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=WaWBdVY5yvU5fLl38/J7kw==:117 a=WaWBdVY5yvU5fLl38/J7kw==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=lNlnAn6OAAAA:20 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=jXKmk9YtKUgCla2LopgA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 463rJN4Ck7z4bVD X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mjose00@optusnet.com.au designates 211.29.132.249 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mjose00@optusnet.com.au X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.29 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[optusnet.com.au]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:211.29.132.0/23]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.992,0]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[213.139.10.210.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[249.132.29.211.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[optusnet.com.au]; ASN(0.00)[asn:4804, ipnet:211.28.0.0/14, country:AU]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[optusnet.com.au]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-4.81), ipnet: 211.28.0.0/14(-3.22), asn: 4804(-2.35), country: AU(0.01)]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2019 01:24:39 -0000 Everything up to FreeBSD 12 runs on all Raspberry Pis EXCEPT Pi4 which has no u-boot yet, no graphics, no usb and no framebuffer and no networking. Apart from that, it's close! :-) FreeBSD has patchy results with SPI: using it may take some work on your behalf. GPIO seems reasonable. (That was as at 2018, I can't testify to changes this year) On 8/08/2019 3:57 am, Brian Wood wrote: > Shalom > > I found a site that has info about running FreeBSD 11 on > Raspberry Pi's. Is anyone running FreeBSD 12 or 13 on > Raspberry Pi's? Also is anyone self-hosting their site/service > on a Raspberry Pi? Thanks in advance. > > > Brian > Ebenezer Enterprises - Enjoying programming again. > https://github.com/Ebenezer-group/onwards > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Aug 8 01:31:00 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A984CBE867 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 01:31:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mafsys1234@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pg1-x543.google.com (mail-pg1-x543.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::543]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 463rRm1LkKz4c23 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 01:30:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mafsys1234@gmail.com) Received: by mail-pg1-x543.google.com with SMTP id t132so43103645pgb.9 for ; Wed, 07 Aug 2019 18:30:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=IdnLkrcMlFo57JIYz5bXe6y21m0moJxpRjrPACeEdZY=; b=ox+hqUOA83rDVNVlBoGhW5OP3tl4l02GNJfiZqgXSTPdg+1NNIFLf7t3zz4y26xnf+ LAS9yr8wtxcYeLt0HLro0BuChY//RDdzirwQTKreOzQNzWsOA5l/o2WCc/8X6OU5RLfx GCPlVdpbX46rYIipCfRakOJCyxKPpr+qP5l7yERc7tjbQDSLHFSc+jqxTTXaxla81LcA fWuix2PpF74nhXCpPxrL96cPQyl6bsf3krBxn1/qAn7f4NTHdNMqZWToNcSnL4RfoyMy 4lhLf5XJQUz16paChKfgElOJCaWCs2W+bkNzvTtvynGr5lkP1YCAFnQGIzKiM7uqAM7x ckbQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=IdnLkrcMlFo57JIYz5bXe6y21m0moJxpRjrPACeEdZY=; b=Bs73W4guxIV/bjCZN3Tc4R+SHNy52/4loN0G147/SKAgYjNTLffzKMNQ3YMRndGpKO aSv5g5mHcnF23TSokABRFbIUsN/aFx0ufgGmOXQq/8khCr48UcJILmLTUab35cM5uAgJ bgNOxm679fucuQar3hu+5LhHsWfNOmBPI0QOStekrddEWD1ajjIuAJ7pL8h1jkDFQuTg 2wQ+hSaD989fL6Bbyzbc8OK8O669K8yZnX4Fr4soo9sCjOCdEyq8L1rnBrxfJtG1tC/Q 362sfxjuRMimS3gELyufxvcFxfJoCRgfFSrhBhAQIX/5BuWfHRINjYCtJCFmEZhWpn8w XQYQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVAov3ZL+iwL6pz0bP4zQvLgwQpj94BD968wEEsQbZmMABAmZZi gMxxcducjw5XjmsYF8zK1lYGc3pzZ0Q= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyTQaQJnAVA+RLGD55FIGi5J1UiC2x4gQ7sgtpxydXqTHitfhzC/badMCAIL38GTP2Y8m9hFA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:2641:: with SMTP id l59mr1237676pje.55.1565227858607; Wed, 07 Aug 2019 18:30:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (C-210-10-139-213.can.connect.net.au. [210.10.139.213]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f72sm461354pjg.10.2019.08.07.18.30.56 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 07 Aug 2019 18:30:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: howto allow anyone to poweroff? To: Jim Trigg , Polytropon , hw Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20190807183735.f4a87306c851426be6b799ca@gc-24.de> <20190807185445.62b59f2f.freebsd@edvax.de> <2756FCF5-417A-471F-9562-BB957FD936A6@huiekin.org> From: MJ Message-ID: <133b534b-192a-5f90-c215-6e81c0800577@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 11:30:27 +1000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2756FCF5-417A-471F-9562-BB957FD936A6@huiekin.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 463rRm1LkKz4c23 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=ox+hqUOA; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mafsys1234@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::543 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mafsys1234@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.997,0]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[213.139.10.210.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[3.4.5.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-0.48), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-3.03), asn: 15169(-2.43), country: US(-0.05)]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2019 01:31:00 -0000 But would/could this get clobbered in an upgrade? On 8/08/2019 5:09 am, Jim Trigg wrote: > Way three is to chmod u+s,a+x /sbin/poweroff (or is it /usr/sbin/poweroff?). > > Thanks, > Jim Trigg > > > On August 7, 2019 12:54:45 PM EDT, Polytropon wrote: >> On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 18:37:35 +0200, hw wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> is there a way to allow ordinary users to poweroff a machine? I'd >>> like to automatically poweroff PXE booted clients once the user that >>> was logged in logs out after using it. >> >> There are basically two ways: >> >> Way 1 is to add the users to the group "operator". This, however, >> allows them to do other things too which you might not be interested >> in allowing them. >> >> Way 2 is to add a program like sudo or super to your installation >> and allow the users to use _one_ specific program ("poweroff only"). >> This is probably the safer way. >> >> >> >> -- >> Polytropon >> Magdeburg, Germany >> Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 >> Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list >> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to >> "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Aug 8 01:47:17 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F190BF290 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 01:47:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com) Received: from out2-4.antispamcloud.com (out2-4.antispamcloud.com [185.201.17.4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 463rpX1nVPz4d2Z for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 01:47:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com) Received: from srv31.niagahoster.com ([153.92.8.106]) by mx65.antispamcloud.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hvXWK-0001q0-Og; Thu, 08 Aug 2019 03:47:14 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sumeritec.com; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type: MIME-Version:References:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date:Sender :Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help: List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=DDTKnRIpV06uPlH2ZxVwuVrD2CNzoUqyde/TVeoh9M4=; b=P45IHPOrEv52nOdP0+05IidxCw pcdTgNrOWdSWy/0ejHAq8WKc9U6wCp44544fQMzYLf1Qw08/sNW+/rp9F6p55Qbk50UF8PxYuOhAQ lf94sZV+hCdDjsFasRKv8AHHNAabYW7188L1LpSlaDk+m2lkU1WLFpzwT2CufvC1tNNxMooDc8CxR ObJ3vmHYJCyr1hVsGEodXUqg5aq4GfQvgNEv4O/Ge0uNXF4VW3lufRHFibfWBn8FIecSb7Lh1tVKb 1/5MK3teB8sfzjPrxAL56ZRwilf5SoWvHG+BWdIt/vB3F8cYJmk2YfOJV2WhJMDK46uXbjYTvQPjJ gqo0zUWg==; Received: from [114.125.102.23] (port=25188 helo=Ryzen1.sumeritec.com) by srv31.niagahoster.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hvXVU-0001K2-Tc; Thu, 08 Aug 2019 08:46:26 +0700 Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 09:46:18 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky To: hw Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: howto allow anyone to poweroff? 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I'd > like to automatically poweroff PXE booted clients once the user that > was logged in logs out after using it. an unconventional way would be to have a cron job checking if someone is locked in an power off the machine if none is logged in. You do not have problems with the access rights but might run into the problem that the machine shutsdown when somebody just has arrived at the machine. You also can catch the logout event and shut the machine down then. It is the problem with the access right again. Erich From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Aug 8 01:58:56 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60034BF78B for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 01:58:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dave.mehler@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wm1-x342.google.com (mail-wm1-x342.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::342]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 463s3z3Qfcz4dYZ for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 01:58:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dave.mehler@gmail.com) Received: by mail-wm1-x342.google.com with SMTP id u25so733346wmc.4 for ; Wed, 07 Aug 2019 18:58:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=eykj0layLSfy/3b5NJe/UgKAqA4CWZQ+sGt3qeuOgaE=; b=oOPWah6eV9tlTgDb3xDOp6S56HNwafbN/715QfItVnCUOZ4hg2EzNGisRB9yffQ4Oh ca5WvJ1XfckmbNfeIrA1WAnERMJb5lErMyN44Hot6es4JDsTMal0PvZhQGwazGjQLKZT Sg4zGazTerCDpPSiZ99bmdcZfQ4bVDY5qwPmZxOzUekB73zjJ7AWwEadzOX2SPF09Mo0 11+7OVwEqPcbU6gHANaw6Bh6O/ovyxo38HECKxwwFIQ6zrzh+0aX8qnH7DHL4pvCig9p ZpWlkRnJEjvYYgtZrB8E0KJUwsME1MjarKN9effibo1ieK5fNnRCBmD8D4DFw2fA99gv gEyw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=eykj0layLSfy/3b5NJe/UgKAqA4CWZQ+sGt3qeuOgaE=; b=cOt/sA0gGNoAHBXXsLEYxpfVgE16Ya9DkH2/vIxBNZb0WG/WAiuTYzsAz/iN32Vaqe mfVqIyIZcqgv7vdSQRgc0rJEi0/qXsSPvKOu1KQdpBd+Hzk16nOmf8RQER1TQE1yK/JR bQLlwcsYmc7O9STunnNflC9AVS7eUDHcHfoNqC0MqVKoPSJJkxBSr2WmvCxSHbWxAjDD jaXWpf8Qmuwzx/ExnlaggMWRAuGQuQHnEtSJnjNnUrC8cyRem8EL4dF5Dobljxy+ZcyV SR54XY53U1e2NDdKOAVnWDPTMYfYWjo+j8o5SpF95maAoDcn6rZscwpPU8akRVNY2cq8 q5oA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUaITQLBFrHYlNIV4yvADLpHDe3C0fsWdsRq9PvLe5GqxC0lXWr aFCRiBO2UXHp7aF8YfZe0ROYG/0EemKOMvpDN1A= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyPi3FV3cJJOkn3HqB8xweiJVAdmGUc3cXRIWS/OynKqimSvGu/8esnVwRZLtjLpyqISQfcUdbjvwKakx4zXMk= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:6087:: with SMTP id u129mr983622wmb.108.1565229533961; Wed, 07 Aug 2019 18:58:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:adf:f011:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Aug 2019 18:58:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <3064722a-2b98-4001-a6a2-5d9bc49eea49@optusnet.com.au> References: <3064722a-2b98-4001-a6a2-5d9bc49eea49@optusnet.com.au> From: David Mehler Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 21:58:53 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Raspberry To: MJ Cc: Brian Wood , FreeBSD Questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 463s3z3Qfcz4dYZ X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=oOPWah6e; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of davemehler@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::342 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=davemehler@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.99 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.990,0]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[optusnet.com.au]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (2.83), ipnet: 2a00:1450::/32(-3.08), asn: 15169(-2.43), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2.4.3.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.5.4.1.0.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[gmail.com] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2019 01:58:56 -0000 Hello, I've got a few Raspberry Pi model 3B+ that i'd like to put FreeBSD 12 on. Does anyone have a procedure? My goal is: 1. home servers 2. surveillance setups with wireless digital cameras Thanks. Dave. On 8/7/19, MJ wrote: > Everything up to FreeBSD 12 runs on all Raspberry Pis EXCEPT Pi4 which > has no u-boot yet, no graphics, no usb and no framebuffer and no > networking. Apart from that, it's close! :-) > > FreeBSD has patchy results with SPI: using it may take some work on your > behalf. GPIO seems reasonable. > (That was as at 2018, I can't testify to changes this year) > > > On 8/08/2019 3:57 am, Brian Wood wrote: >> Shalom >> >> I found a site that has info about running FreeBSD 11 on >> Raspberry Pi's. Is anyone running FreeBSD 12 or 13 on >> Raspberry Pi's? Also is anyone self-hosting their site/service >> on a Raspberry Pi? Thanks in advance. >> >> >> Brian >> Ebenezer Enterprises - Enjoying programming again. >> https://github.com/Ebenezer-group/onwards >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list >> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to >> "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >> > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Aug 8 02:16:26 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40719C069B for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 02:16:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mafsys1234@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pl1-x644.google.com (mail-pl1-x644.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::644]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 463sS9237zz3Byg for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 02:16:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mafsys1234@gmail.com) Received: by mail-pl1-x644.google.com with SMTP id t14so42808074plr.11 for ; Wed, 07 Aug 2019 19:16:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=WH3QDUxzN6shBRoe3Xq/ddcbmNij/rRFrXf6Vvpauvw=; b=noP1g3W9oU2UPrUcpESEeXJM729nEjgyxhu4oQp5DE1HyTsx+APuWEOH1LUZg7d6uC i4nkJeYeV57gItRnhc2Vwi7EGqU3jfMZWPq1mWrebgVQ31M/Zy0j6NuLQ/fhvgtdqxOH kfpOETAJDPGNJZGMoPjs/09SVWJIf4sjRwL05WdJAU8TTUY+YTArZ4hjFxHa3pK//27u rzQnZaDkBkFszdI3lMEtw9Oe/m8F6ton+0EubcCNJPjCsbuhGd+iHYc+6wFoy85NRGq9 PdB2Buxhi6R39Z1ttHR24xZpHYj+xz6T+ruN5a5uGzRchq+k52xugaJIVlXkXx1aB4Ar 3jGA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=WH3QDUxzN6shBRoe3Xq/ddcbmNij/rRFrXf6Vvpauvw=; b=YVE4XKwl7isHWvYokov6026KGGqB8OnQe3WfWFjRELRootVLT6/VbKElf47vVDmRhv CPpQ4ORLa7lEEBxaQxFNMEc84sb5ezrLCM0k+WLKtPhukIbQXtgImfT13J7Ulgowe3+e gR03LIocxNPDqgaXpEKxguSdDIsoJaIzY36He5oy51TWflq7YVjHcgyi3fu+j7u+m+bJ QgFws3PifrNHE3v70t/HGntFMTXeOW9qgTyE/KLsyQp28gXcY0NzEXf5cILq+fyXilT6 ELScFOkE7J+updBFbAbJSHDZejaceb3cng1m4vOMiw6yIrc66D+Zs8jCCQw7Xm+iNpKy 5rXw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW+OBsihBtL5tOtxEseQtHPm6qKNo2U7PfUwzdEGxkfsRlxVqCx OIpTA20GkXlVmdaaVBD9JrJcRJTW/SZM2Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx1Utl5j6mCeKKmMQemHJ9VK6lxhUsWCJFP78pc7HTVVNCo7UAhEvKCeULe+qS8EIk0eungEw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:6a87:: with SMTP id n7mr10901134plk.336.1565230583559; Wed, 07 Aug 2019 19:16:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (C-210-10-139-213.can.connect.net.au. [210.10.139.213]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o130sm151100527pfg.171.2019.08.07.19.16.21 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 07 Aug 2019 19:16:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Raspberry To: David Mehler Cc: Brian Wood , FreeBSD Questions References: <3064722a-2b98-4001-a6a2-5d9bc49eea49@optusnet.com.au> From: MJ Message-ID: <2351491e-a2cb-31a0-47c1-780641df93fa@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 12:15:53 +1000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 463sS9237zz3Byg X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=noP1g3W9; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mafsys1234@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::644 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mafsys1234@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.997,0]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[213.139.10.210.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[4.4.6.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-0.39), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-3.03), asn: 15169(-2.43), country: US(-0.05)]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2019 02:16:26 -0000 Download the images, decompress them, write them on to an SD micro and away you go. See here: https://wiki.freebsd.org/FreeBSD/arm/Raspberry%20Pi On a Pi3B, use maybe this image: https://download.freebsd.org/ftp/snapshots/arm64/aarch64/ISO-IMAGES/13.0/FreeBSD-13.0-CURRENT-arm64-aarch64-RPI3-20190801-r350491.img.xz but it's ultimately up to you, just use the image designed for your model otherwise it will not boot. Just decompress the image (7Zip for Windows, xz for Linux/*BSD/macOS/Solaris) If you're on Windows, use win32diskimager, on Unix/macOS use dd. Here's a nice write-up: https://medium.com/@alexewerlof/installing-freebsd-on-raspberry-pi-using-linux-20f44abb4565 or here: https://garyhall.org.uk/free-bsd-on-raspberry-pi.html It really is that simple. Then use pkg to install packages (I would advise against using ports!) (Disclaimer: I've only ever used them headless) On 8/08/2019 11:58 am, David Mehler wrote: > Hello, > > I've got a few Raspberry Pi model 3B+ that i'd like to put FreeBSD 12 > on. Does anyone have a procedure? My goal is: > > 1. home servers > 2. surveillance setups with wireless digital cameras > > Thanks. > Dave. > > > On 8/7/19, MJ wrote: >> Everything up to FreeBSD 12 runs on all Raspberry Pis EXCEPT Pi4 which >> has no u-boot yet, no graphics, no usb and no framebuffer and no >> networking. Apart from that, it's close! :-) >> >> FreeBSD has patchy results with SPI: using it may take some work on your >> behalf. GPIO seems reasonable. >> (That was as at 2018, I can't testify to changes this year) >> >> >> On 8/08/2019 3:57 am, Brian Wood wrote: >>> Shalom >>> >>> I found a site that has info about running FreeBSD 11 on >>> Raspberry Pi's. Is anyone running FreeBSD 12 or 13 on >>> Raspberry Pi's? Also is anyone self-hosting their site/service >>> on a Raspberry Pi? Thanks in advance. >>> >>> >>> Brian >>> Ebenezer Enterprises - Enjoying programming again. >>> https://github.com/Ebenezer-group/onwards >>> _______________________________________________ >>> freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list >>> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions >>> To unsubscribe, send any mail to >>> "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list >> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to >> "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >> > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Aug 8 06:10:49 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0AEBC4488; 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RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-0.05)[ip: (1.27), ipnet: 185.201.17.0/24(-1.27), asn: 49544(-0.24), country: NL(0.01)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2019 06:10:49 -0000 Hi, On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 13:26:31 -0400 Daniel Eischen wrote: > > On Aug 7, 2019, at 6:25 AM, Erich Dollansky > > wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 06:07:25 -0400 > > Daniel Eischen wrote: > > > >>> On Aug 7, 2019, at 5:20 AM, Konstantin Belousov > >>> wrote: > >>>> On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 04:37:57PM +0800, Erich Dollansky wrote: > >>>> Hi, > >>>> > >>>> On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 10:10:02 +0300 > >>>> Konstantin Belousov wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 06, 2019 at 08:58:30PM -0400, Daniel Eischen > >>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Aug 6, 2019, at 4:54 AM, Erich Dollansky > >>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Hi, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> for testing purpose, I did the following. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Start a thread, initialise a mutex in a global variable, lock > >>>>>>> the mutex and wait in that thread. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Wait in the main program until above's thread waits and cancel > >>>>>>> it. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Clean up behind the cancelled thread but leave intentional the > >>>>>>> mutex locked. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I would have expected now to get an error like 'EOWNERDEAD' > >>>>>>> doing operations with that mutex. But I get 'EBUSY' as the > >>>>>>> error. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Are you initializing the mutex as a robust mutex, via > >>>>>> pthread_mutexattr_setrobust()? Are you using _lock() or > >>>>>> _trylock()? > >>>>> Robust mutexes only have special properties on the process > >>>>> termination. They behave same as the normal mutexes if the > >>>>> owning thread is terminated. > >>>>> > >>>> man says: > >>>> > >>>> [EOWNERDEAD] The argument mutex points to a robust mutex and the > >>>> previous owning thread terminated while holding the mutex > >>>> lock. > >>> > >>> So what ? It describes the case when error can be returned, but > >>> it is not required to do so. POSIX wording is the following: > >>> > >>> If mutex is a robust mutex and the process containing the owning > >>> thread terminated while holding the mutex lock, a call to > >>> pthread_mutex_lock() shall return the error value [EOWNERDEAD]. If > >>> mutex is a robust mutex and the owning thread terminated while > >>> holding the mutex lock, a call to pthread_mutex_lock( ) may return > >>> the error value [EOWNERDEAD] even if the process in which the > >>> owning thread resides has not terminated. > >>> > >>> Note the difference between shall and may. We only process robust > >>> list on the process termination. If the process is still alive, > >>> but the thread terminated, it can only happen because the process > >>> code asked for the thread termination explicitly, and then the > >>> code should be able to keep its own state. On really fatal > >>> conditions, like unhandled signals, kernel terminates the > >>> process, not a thread. > >> > >> But pthread_mutex_lock() should not return EBUSY; that is only for > >> _trylock(). It seems to me _lock() should either return EOWNERDEAD > >> or EDEADLK, or it just blocks indefinitely. > >> > >> Erich, are you getting EBUSY for pthread_mutex_lock() or is that > >> only for pthread_mutex_trylock()? > >> > > EBUSY is only returned when I call 'pthread_mutex_trylock'. The > > other one just hangs. > > In this case, I think FreeBSD is behaving correctly. I think perhaps > the only problem is that the man page isn't reflecting the POSIX > wording. > it is not so clear. This is also the reason why I finally relied on the FreeBSD man page. It says at the bottom: The pthread_mutex_lock() function conforms to ISO/IEC 9945-1:1996 ("POSIX.1"). Which is pretty old. http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/functions/pthread_mutex_lock.html The Open Group Base Specifications Issue 7, 2018 edition IEEE Std 1003.1-2017 (Revision of IEEE Std 1003.1-2008) ... When you check that document out, it becomes even more confusing as it says in one case 'thread' and in the other case 'process'. This makes it a bit confusing for programmers as especially the unlock function should be only called by the thread holding the lock. How this was defined by the FreeBSD manuals made it very clear to programmers.. To come back to your comment. So, even when we assume the Open Group has the final say, pthread_mutex_unlock is wrong as it shall release the mutex when held by a dead thread but it does not. The whole thing looks to me that the author of the man page used some logic which did not make it into the software. Erich From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Aug 8 06:55:48 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 452B5C54A8 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 06:55:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 463zfV6FVHz3wYL for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 06:55:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.20.73]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue011 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MbAxU-1iSUAL46lk-00bd3N; Thu, 08 Aug 2019 08:50:26 +0200 Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 08:50:20 +0200 From: Polytropon To: MJ Cc: Jim Trigg , hw , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: howto allow anyone to poweroff? Message-Id: <20190808085020.467420c7.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <133b534b-192a-5f90-c215-6e81c0800577@gmail.com> References: <20190807183735.f4a87306c851426be6b799ca@gc-24.de> <20190807185445.62b59f2f.freebsd@edvax.de> <2756FCF5-417A-471F-9562-BB957FD936A6@huiekin.org> <133b534b-192a-5f90-c215-6e81c0800577@gmail.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:dBSH2JqG8dN3jftCayqlTbyNhbie5ld8RO0LmEPjX6IFslV965+ D4cBu3PTPOVeg1A+VBLrdCoKm/JNskDrbcla3Z8ny4izfyxNOlp9bhSUCnyqW/MyunhMKq9 tZTVbzU79mazzkB5HDi47j7Vif7WEaqilw8iR2NntJ5sYQpyknoElwe3S6cL+7VkVlftQT0 SpJwLtcORT8UvDgZVFTWA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:a9Mktw6O/W4=:taUIAEH59LXjxiGZtaGMy+ sdhiKbkY6DLQlloBaS8BSJSueVkUbR3fDixjho3mn41OwKsa1WSrWxD3qYcj/i9193vppSsbo 5VTpJAaH40fYWI3X+s4khWdL6ER0wsUuWIKnCEnOABJdKEfpCvtk6iYXrM2Fj+RzEIc1UCG8k wzOGHytevfT7/YGWTRz5FqMO/wBVfCudunfRhy5q9LDPqNhhG7xzG3N02ceCFxzmA1gfrTuas eTiEcQYGPubbHKfjTRMtNOcKBbTK/c7YEB9Sw9bPmNdW8eFpz/1tS8hvKD7rRRu69GGJIGA4b m20JMDBKvKVo5m0l8ps2sagpU+swc/I65BDc1rHOyyqxXIV1fazYUxnTJ69HPT+Wd88l6rQWV YKM7zIp3vm7e+tjRPi62CrOUr6XDh6n1RvjrFhuGQ+vaiX4iS0RDRe5XKoa/0GRIMDSUPutTg JDdzGrRLeyIr1G7oWZqPtQe1D9cobv5r/6WDjwVm1WszPSCAaDbqAdfiP9K5jIMLRSWT3zfLh zXAiyoxlloqFdvOWKn8+y2JYTlyaHv5dXSuh8Flh0s2tH0FnIUtFox4krojnW9r5paA7XtXhZ 67y1KEEoRL/7hi5ovtKVSm+GYPwXTKQflBMQYyn3vPPuN9xJ7e12nyeFrYa9pfxuNRLaV41vf Bo5j8fpEOymYVov9z660AsX1AkKrMMuoO6IQ61kaNfzfvuSRcp3SWAVS52GRGinCFfutcl+xV pIaZM7TatRf2JuvLqdzCeBZ3t3+0FFB6nqrlo/V/al/OsjEPGDFkDrQk6XU= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 463zfV6FVHz3wYL X-Spamd-Bar: ++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.133) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [6.59 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[73.20.222.94.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.51)[0.513,0]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.99)[0.987,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.99)[0.988,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[133.126.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body]; IP_SCORE(0.70)[ip: (2.58), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.37), asn: 8560(2.28), country: DE(-0.01)] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2019 06:55:48 -0000 On Thu, 8 Aug 2019 11:30:27 +1000, MJ wrote: > But would/could this get clobbered in an upgrade? Yes, because altered files usually get overwritten with the newer version without prompting, if I remember correctly. So you'd have to run a "post-upgrade" script which adds back your changes - I had to do this with the lp* tools and the umount binary on FreeBSD 10 because of Gnome... ;-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Aug 8 06:58:42 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1589C5795 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 06:58:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 463zjs5jmCz3wky for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 06:58:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.20.73]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue012 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1Mbkac-1iT1pJ21q2-00dGZI; Thu, 08 Aug 2019 08:52:23 +0200 Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 08:52:22 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Erich Dollansky Cc: hw , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: howto allow anyone to poweroff? Message-Id: <20190808085222.77febec0.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20190808094618.787a7422.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> References: <20190807183735.f4a87306c851426be6b799ca@gc-24.de> <20190808094618.787a7422.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:t/pvCZSvw78abGWwTPYm1ZKYdDLstYs4VATRDa6Tyjj2nkKzYrB Tt8NTTd39b22FqYdTyiTyciirBT5fB92K+RKIkoe6PKRmfkDEeiH5KEvM/qwjED01mm/ex6 mMG5ec3QtiTxaoV/MwknEtPQKmvqz3tcWkvbCR1TSpOAnkZnMxZ+l9wc//fFQUxAPBDq4tS jxJOJMWzpLsisirSYnBFA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:elWb4leifX4=:dltQ8FZ4In7xDG8NAvyUJx efmfp1NaStgYolZpn93GclQd4MbxdQdQBlp6Vio87PxDdHrGTFOqTRFtP1g94ekok8tBMwdPB K5dOb2qOtVKoQP5mX5Mf79lIbzITRKEuzpRFLFFD4Lhj9WWTOpqpgaEDb5DBE3JaORXs6cnW2 MnsJMbOs+gnSalDC9ONnb0J9jBjJqT/JF14vVvGaseCrPjoo9ta6+i2FQKXnvp3jgTir6+zfu C/Y3ZdrFiSQW1p3RH8Tt4SUoKAht4CueewUyIIQTxmxNGjTz/vQPEyhLe9oK+w5oDaA5u/hmp XB/XnX67f6UuXl+QbB4ctQvyMq7F58tEvKLYyKiPk+xZ8Zijh5oP+L+p2OLqtKULz/TbwRCzf 5/ZrUNGmYIKtgCZPFK6eGAm9++FNc6VgrmEZpJybSAElBU/WaCXVwuEXKFO6klC+Qqo3g2fQ8 bqBCdxVILABKsSBgW42m/vOeFpxt47PTTIwSpeBmgbcf08/wn06bGNkipdyXDN6uY34dfFMfn VGYn6y8Z8uNbpKoqheq4MthojPsxQ8pU9tJ9Il6obfNew5MwIJiM9K0gts22urAs6feMkgMuL V1lrMeHGpNM0v3/G/05c4f7BS7EyXypjmSrLRdhxZxTEfS9G7QjuMI+bW2iqFPIYdt0hCe7o/ BN6d0QGEERlsq0pSAMf37WWF4dAq2DCiKnh88Ax8eN4H76cOaEZd1BCoOoOacZWIx/z7ztt9h Svh4IohP7rr7NbmksOJG2EVEDsZENTzmz/MsMgIBqyhEpc59q4xDuCXWT+w= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 463zjs5jmCz3wky X-Spamd-Bar: ++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.134) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [6.44 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[73.20.222.94.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.47)[0.472,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.98)[0.984,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.98)[0.984,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[134.126.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(0.60)[ip: (2.07), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.37), asn: 8560(2.28), country: DE(-0.01)] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2019 06:58:42 -0000 On Thu, 8 Aug 2019 09:46:18 +0800, Erich Dollansky wrote: > Hi, > > On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 18:37:35 +0200 > hw wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > is there a way to allow ordinary users to poweroff a machine? I'd > > like to automatically poweroff PXE booted clients once the user that > > was logged in logs out after using it. > > an unconventional way would be to have a cron job checking if someone > is locked in an power off the machine if none is logged in. You do not > have problems with the access rights but might run into the problem > that the machine shutsdown when somebody just has arrived at the > machine. > > You also can catch the logout event and shut the machine down then. It > is the problem with the access right again. TO extend this idea, you could parse the output of programs like "w" to check for reamining interactive users. If the last one has logged out in a cron-controlled specific time window, the system could perform a shutdown. Hoewever, the problem described above will remain. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Aug 8 11:18:21 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B175BCB265 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 11:18:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 76nemo76@gmx.ch) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.gmx.net", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4645TS3mpGz4Bc4 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 11:18:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 76nemo76@gmx.ch) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1565263091; bh=5pV11BEhykQNfixZC1UXXo9K2CJCwNFV36X+7hIRux4=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:To:From:Subject:Date; b=NDJ1YdMTKa+CXFAmnXE1jXrvoyZdfL2i5hnxW6lku57lHJ2lNSqPoGhinSSbY5SbB 89BKDl1+rL27dQ/fFXxqh/dpYpHb7II85RcR7N/r0twreEmmeY6HkWBjxjoK7CC1WM M0YhZYv0qeisON/FvFtnHel0c7b4xy6xhiEFMKNM= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.88.189] ([85.195.219.254]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MpUUm-1igmEL2gCy-00pqlw for ; Thu, 08 Aug 2019 12:36:37 +0200 To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org From: Pierre Dupond <76nemo76@gmx.ch> Subject: libgcrypt check fails in port Message-ID: Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 12:36:18 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:M0unc802aX4NNHpvztXP9siuLdlUdQ48r4H/JBiTOaMxFBHJsV+ 1aKjmF8tY65sdHTMhcb0GwxUiUxxoC00MTAEhUy1MmIbJucSGhc0EmCmw4NzXWZQ7layEAO PSUPgtoRtCvqqJzIViVQtNv3CdkkEjX/nmiQZtDnWG1Qr6GLgSOuh9mfJ9ObA8GJAZBZAd0 q6Cjz8j22hXF/PhnyIrIA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:R74VUwomIn4=:oRNN67OMHctQznWxzetfBj imsKV8sVLUA6IRc8zUU/tFgGfBNwRgIZJ0JiUxLZLxTuejQ4UsSjYrPeL/BcoHTqlQus3Sy87 GvS/f1VOzdVe3qlRhcGYCVY/G4F/qn7FuHYUMKZ87O5Lkr6yrnAfGndUwM6v35P2r/jqxQEE3 lWreael5b0+nhXnBawUQtxQtkFhzFmGRFSFhUSezTlIrj+Z6hl0gk6Y7vUu7ZsjVSG3LPF5O7 QEsD25lej/6u8lMDYn84ljJwb+3onGjCWaMcaKw0c0AiUFTIgwgX3cnIu9O/pNZ29pcQBTxMo Pm2ZNzePWgpQh4eIKCWqLc0Dp19IZkWEAi0v51v5Srr2MKVwmV9MMcx7oRBFq5hGQoAsWANli Qyt1509/CzyJvGhAdWEaZJZZO9XLmIWH0UiMqwyBOoj9H229R0U04sgCKUfowwmmJyCh9yvtr EgA7xo5HOF+uKSK2iMGm5T1bsPxZQflkPqjO+nlOolHEwjpq7zbADQGxtnZPMzmHurHg19oVo 1SJuGO2gVImduT+vX5B08vE8p6ZvLRaPE6PfWi39CibPEoCIqg36GHrGC1ulel36rYQRNZwa2 5xqsyeuZR95BslMlcFBhjvYsTCzbCkoTs4iZPpvUs4vxELAhhLQxjHsz5WE6OuTGyYnwHD21k OgMofnBb1JHPGnXdS2IO3XZ5IXS5sMLg2tAMTUFRWwZVoJacP+ebOMuu1eHwvgwOJYCfizMnW RrMOvyu7I7l/x7HDgPYVUvK+x8E3bWxq9F3/aF4cy+zBZx8MYqiErUb9Bi1GsMPOeqAh8gDL2 iAylls0MqBv0EO0IPihrbL7BvYZC6zWuzHPJ+ageXiNOGbTsbmR0asIz8LgeuesN4TMir8Nhw NSFQCHoQUFjjHzcDTTB2RluxU5TWQp5A5UK8DLdwKAN2puEAoNCKC6OMnZ/x/Xth6+gpxjiqC W8sqX1/TUbkx/uxBVTKcCD7h4jA8Evbu2D55GbwmHsdj1O84O4ehJI9Tqaiu4JLPF4++FxrYF ec+3te1I5mJzzMCQbEPAf70mI+chCKHE1jdTL2Z6yu5TO+x61mGYWuaW5Ll+ht7iaXsCkI5mM Cg5mPprqtMjOsnfXpwpUCSguV4yoRDkM9UDftx5+YlaAkDhnmM5xfcN4f+x1uxoKX/ybD/bdH P+mxI= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4645TS3mpGz4Bc4 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmx.net header.s=badeba3b8450 header.b=NDJ1YdMT; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 76nemo76@gmx.ch designates 212.227.17.22 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=76nemo76@gmx.ch X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.59 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:212.227.17.0/27]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmx.ch]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmx.net:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.993,0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-6.07), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.39), asn: 8560(2.27), country: DE(-0.01)]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[22.17.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.3.1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmx.net:s=badeba3b8450]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmx.ch]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[gmx.ch]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2019 11:18:21 -0000 Hi All, When I try to check the libgcrypt library compiled from the ports (the command "make check" in the working directory of the ligcrypt library), two tests fail. One failing test seems to be about secure memory, the other one about S expressions, both are related to the "GCRYCTL_INIT_SECMEM" function (and the secure memory?). I have not this problem under Linux and the tests ("make check" in the working directory) of the gnupg2 program seem to pass successfully. Do you have an idea of what happens? I have done the compilation on a new installed Freebsd 12 freshly patched without any modification in the file "/etc/mk.conf". Thanks for your help, Best regards, =2D--------------Log of the command "make check"------------------- Script started on Thu Aug 8 12:19:26 2019 root@BSD12Virt:/usr/ports/security/libgcrypt # cd work/libgcrypt-1.8.4/ root@BSD12Virt:/usr/ports/security/libgcrypt/work/libgcrypt-1.8.4 # make check Making check in compat Making check in mpi Making check in cipher Making check in random Making check in src Making check in doc make check-am Making check in tests make check-TESTS version:1.8.4:10804:1.36:12400: cc:40201:clang:4.2.1 Compatible FreeBSD Clang 6.0.1 (tags/RELEASE_601/final 335540): ciphers:arcfour:blowfish:cast5:des:aes:twofish:serpent:rfc2268:seed:camell= ia:idea:salsa20:gost28147:chacha20: pubkeys:dsa:elgamal:rsa:ecc: digests:crc:gostr3411-94::md4:md5:rmd160:sha1:sha256:sha512:sha3:tiger:whi= rlpool:stribog:blake2: rnd-mod:linux: cpu-arch:x86: mpi-asm:amd64/mpih-add1.S:amd64/mpih-sub1.S:amd64/mpih-mul1.S:amd64/mpih-m= ul2.S:amd64/mpih-mul3.S:amd64/mpih-lshift.S:amd64/mpih-rshift.S: hwflist:intel-cpu:intel-fast-shld:intel-ssse3:intel-sse4.1:intel-pclmul:in= tel-aesni:intel-avx:intel-avx2:intel-fast-vpgather:intel-rdtsc: fips-mode:n:n: rng-type:standard:1:2010000:1: =1B[0;32mPASS=1B[m: version t-secmem: line 176: gcry_control (GCRYCTL_INIT_SECMEM, pool_size, 0) failed: Erreur g?n?rale =1B[0;31mFAIL=1B[m: t-secmem =1B[0;32mPASS=1B[m: mpitests t-sexp: line 1174: gcry_control (GCRYCTL_INIT_SECMEM, 16384, 0) failed: Erreur g?n?rale =1B[0;31mFAIL=1B[m: t-sexp =1B[0;32mPASS=1B[m: t-convert =1B[0;32mPASS=1B[m: t-mpi-bit =1B[0;32mPASS=1B[m: t-mpi-point =1B[0;32mPASS=1B[m: curves =1B[0;32mPASS=1B[m: t-lock =1B[0;32mPASS=1B[m: prime =1B[0;32mPASS=1B[m: basic =1B[0;32mPASS=1B[m: keygen =1B[0;32mPASS=1B[m: pubkey =1B[0;32mPASS=1B[m: hmac =1B[0;32mPASS=1B[m: hashtest =1B[0;32mPASS=1B[m: t-kdf =1B[0;32mPASS=1B[m: keygrip =1B[0;32mPASS=1B[m: fips186-dsa =1B[0;32mPASS=1B[m: aeswrap =1B[0;32mPASS=1B[m: pkcs1v2 =1B[0;32mPASS=1B[m: random =1B[0;32mPASS=1B[m: dsa-rfc6979 256 of 1026 tests done 512 of 1026 tests done 768 of 1026 tests done 1024 of 1026 tests done 1026 tests done =1B[0;32mPASS=1B[m: t-ed25519 18 tests done =1B[0;32mPASS=1B[m: t-cv25519 now running 'basic' test with all hardware features disabled. =1B[0;32mPASS=1B[m: basic-disable-all-hwf Note: benchmark running in quick regression test mode. MD5 0ms 0ms 78125ms 78125ms 0ms SHA1 0ms 78125ms 78125ms 78125ms 0ms RIPEMD160 0ms 78125ms 0ms 78125ms 0ms TIGER192 0ms 0ms 156250ms 78125ms 0ms SHA256 78125ms 78125ms 156250ms 78125ms 0ms SHA384 0ms 78125ms 78125ms 78125ms 0ms SHA512 78125ms 78125ms 156250ms 0ms 78125ms SHA224 0ms 78125ms 234375ms 78125ms 0ms MD4 0ms 78125ms 0ms 78125ms 0ms CRC32 0ms 0ms 78125ms 78125ms 0ms CRC32RFC1510 0ms 0ms 78125ms 0ms 0ms CRC24RFC2440 0ms 0ms 156250ms 0ms 0ms WHIRLPOOL 0ms 0ms 234375ms 0ms 0ms TIGER 0ms 0ms 156250ms 0ms 0ms TIGER2 0ms 0ms 156250ms 0ms 0ms GOSTR3411_94 234375ms 156250ms 390625ms 234375ms 156250ms STRIBOG256 78125ms 78125ms 234375ms 78125ms 78125ms STRIBOG512 156250ms 78125ms 234375ms 156250ms 156250ms GOSTR3411_CP 78125ms 234375ms 234375ms 234375ms 156250ms SHA3-224 78125ms 0ms 156250ms 78125ms 78125ms SHA3-256 0ms 0ms 156250ms 0ms 78125ms SHA3-384 78125ms 0ms 234375ms 78125ms 0ms SHA3-512 78125ms 0ms 312500ms 0ms 78125ms SHAKE128 78125ms 0ms 234375ms 0ms SHAKE256 0ms 78125ms 234375ms 78125ms BLAKE2B_512 0ms 0ms 156250ms 78125ms 0ms BLAKE2B_384 0ms 0ms 156250ms 78125ms 0ms BLAKE2B_256 0ms 0ms 156250ms 78125ms 0ms BLAKE2B_160 0ms 0ms 156250ms 78125ms 0ms BLAKE2S_256 0ms 78125ms 156250ms 0ms 78125ms BLAKE2S_224 0ms 0ms 156250ms 78125ms 0ms BLAKE2S_160 78125ms 0ms 156250ms 78125ms 0ms BLAKE2S_128 0ms 0ms 234375ms 0ms 78125ms HMAC_SHA256 0ms 78125ms 78125ms HMAC_SHA224 78125ms 78125ms 78125ms HMAC_SHA512 78125ms 0ms 78125ms HMAC_SHA384 78125ms 0ms 78125ms HMAC_SHA1 78125ms 0ms 0ms HMAC_MD5 0ms 0ms 78125ms HMAC_MD4 0ms 78125ms 0ms HMAC_RIPEMD160 0ms 78125ms 78125ms HMAC_TIGER 0ms 0ms 0ms HMAC_WHIRLPOOL 78125ms 78125ms 78125ms HMAC_GOSTR3411_94 234375ms 156250ms 234375ms HMAC_STRIBOG256 156250ms 78125ms 156250ms HMAC_STRIBOG512 78125ms 156250ms 156250ms HMAC_SHA3_224 0ms 0ms 78125ms HMAC_SHA3_256 78125ms 0ms 78125ms HMAC_SHA3_384 78125ms 0ms 78125ms HMAC_SHA3_512 0ms 0ms 156250ms CMAC_AES 0ms 0ms 78125ms CMAC_3DES 234375ms 234375ms 312500ms CMAC_CAMELLIA 0ms 78125ms 78125ms CMAC_CAST5 0ms 78125ms 156250ms CMAC_BLOWFISH 78125ms 0ms 78125ms CMAC_TWOFISH 78125ms 78125ms 78125ms CMAC_SERPENT 78125ms 78125ms 78125ms CMAC_SEED 78125ms 156250ms 78125ms CMAC_RFC2268 234375ms 156250ms 78125ms CMAC_IDEA 78125ms 78125ms 156250ms CMAC_GOST28147 156250ms 156250ms 156250ms GMAC_AES 0ms 0ms 78125ms GMAC_CAMELLIA 0ms 0ms 0ms GMAC_TWOFISH 0ms 0ms 0ms GMAC_SERPENT 0ms 78125ms 0ms GMAC_SEED 0ms 0ms 78125ms POLY1305 0ms 0ms 0ms POLY1305_AES 0ms 0ms 0ms POLY1305_CAMELLIA 0ms 0ms 78125ms POLY1305_TWOFISH 0ms 0ms 0ms POLY1305_SERPENT 0ms 0ms 78125ms POLY1305_SEED 0ms 0ms 0ms ECB/Stream CBC CFB OFB CTR XTS CCM GCM OCB --------------- --------------- --------------- =2D-------------- --------------- --------------- --------------- =2D-------------- --------------- IDEA 78125ms 78125ms 78125ms 78125ms 78125ms 78125ms 78125ms 78125ms 78125ms 78125ms - - - - - - - - 3DES 312500ms 234375ms 234375ms 156250ms 234375ms 78125ms 312500ms 312500ms 78125ms 78125ms - - - - - - - - CAST5 78125ms 0ms 78125ms 78125ms 78125ms 0ms 156250ms 0ms 0ms 0ms - - - - - - - - BLOWFISH 0ms 0ms 78125ms 78125ms 78125ms 0ms 78125ms 156250ms 0ms 0ms - - - - - - - - AES 0ms 0ms 0ms 78125ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 78125ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 0ms AES192 0ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 78125ms 0ms AES256 0ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 78125ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 0ms TWOFISH 78125ms 78125ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 78125ms 0ms 78125ms 0ms 78125ms 0ms 78125ms 78125ms 0ms 0ms 78125ms 0ms 0ms ARCFOUR 0ms 78125ms DES 0ms 156250ms 156250ms 156250ms 78125ms 156250ms 78125ms 156250ms 78125ms 78125ms - - - - - - - - TWOFISH128 78125ms 0ms 0ms 78125ms 0ms 78125ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 78125ms 78125ms 78125ms 78125ms 0ms 0ms 78125ms 0ms SERPENT128 78125ms 0ms 78125ms 0ms 156250ms 0ms 78125ms 78125ms 0ms 0ms 156250ms 78125ms 156250ms 156250ms 0ms 0ms 78125ms 0ms SERPENT192 78125ms 156250ms 78125ms 78125ms 78125ms 0ms 156250ms 78125ms 0ms 0ms 78125ms 156250ms 156250ms 156250ms 0ms 0ms 78125ms 0ms SERPENT256 78125ms 156250ms 78125ms 78125ms 78125ms 78125ms 78125ms 156250ms 0ms 0ms 156250ms 78125ms 156250ms 78125ms 0ms 0ms 78125ms 0ms RFC2268_40 78125ms 78125ms 234375ms 78125ms 156250ms 234375ms 156250ms 78125ms 234375ms 78125ms - - - - - - - - RFC2268_128 156250ms 156250ms 78125ms 78125ms 78125ms 156250ms 156250ms 156250ms 156250ms 156250ms - - - - - - - - SEED 156250ms 78125ms 0ms 156250ms 78125ms 78125ms 156250ms 78125ms 78125ms 78125ms 156250ms 78125ms 312500ms 234375ms 156250ms 156250ms 78125ms 0ms CAMELLIA128 0ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 78125ms 0ms 78125ms 78125ms 0ms 0ms 78125ms 78125ms 78125ms 78125ms 78125ms 0ms 0ms 0ms CAMELLIA192 0ms 78125ms 156250ms 0ms 78125ms 0ms 78125ms 156250ms 0ms 0ms 78125ms 78125ms 78125ms 78125ms 0ms 0ms 78125ms 0ms CAMELLIA256 78125ms 78125ms 0ms 0ms 156250ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 156250ms 78125ms 78125ms 0ms 0ms 0ms 78125ms SALSA20 0ms 0ms SALSA20R12 0ms 0ms GOST28147 156250ms 156250ms 234375ms 78125ms 156250ms 156250ms 156250ms 156250ms 234375ms 156250ms - - - - - - - - CHACHA20 0ms 0ms Algorithm generate 10*priv 10*public =2D----------------------------------------------- RSA 1024 bit 0ms 156250ms 0ms RSA 2048 bit 2578125ms 468750ms 0ms RSA 3072 bit 7890625ms 1328125ms 0ms RSA 4096 bit 11796875ms 2734375ms 0ms ELG 1024 bit - 156250ms 0ms ELG 2048 bit - 312500ms 312500ms ELG 3072 bit - 781250ms 625000ms DSA 1024/160 - 0ms 78125ms DSA 2048/224 - 78125ms 156250ms DSA 3072/256 - 156250ms 234375ms ECDSA 192 bit 78125ms 156250ms 156250ms ECDSA 224 bit 0ms 234375ms 390625ms ECDSA 256 bit 78125ms 234375ms 234375ms ECDSA 384 bit 78125ms 468750ms 546875ms ECDSA 521 bit 312500ms 937500ms 1250000ms EdDSA Ed25519 0ms 468750ms 546875ms GOST 256 bit 78125ms 234375ms 312500ms GOST 512 bit 312500ms 1015625ms 1250000ms powm 0ms 78125ms 234375ms random 0ms 78125ms =1B[0;32mPASS=1B[m: benchmark Note: bench-slope running in quick regression test mode. Hash: | nanosecs/byte mebibytes/sec cycles/byte MD5 | 1.34 ns/B 712.9 MiB/s - c/B SHA1 | 1.15 ns/B 831.8 MiB/s - c/B RIPEMD160 | 2.99 ns/B 318.6 MiB/s - c/B TIGER192 | 3.50 ns/B 272.2 MiB/s - c/B SHA256 | 5.60 ns/B 170.4 MiB/s - c/B SHA384 | 3.90 ns/B 244.8 MiB/s - c/B SHA512 | 3.25 ns/B 293.1 MiB/s - c/B SHA224 | 5.44 ns/B 175.4 MiB/s - c/B MD4 | 1.32 ns/B 721.5 MiB/s - c/B CRC32 | 0.042 ns/B 22717.7 MiB/s - c/B CRC32RFC1510 | 0.045 ns/B 21305.4 MiB/s - c/B CRC24RFC2440 | 0.063 ns/B 15092.1 MiB/s - c/B WHIRLPOOL | 4.86 ns/B 196.2 MiB/s - c/B TIGER | 2.13 ns/B 448.2 MiB/s - c/B TIGER2 | 2.56 ns/B 371.9 MiB/s - c/B GOSTR3411_94 | 22.54 ns/B 42.32 MiB/s - c/B STRIBOG256 | 13.81 ns/B 69.05 MiB/s - c/B STRIBOG512 | 13.08 ns/B 72.89 MiB/s - c/B GOSTR3411_CP | 21.45 ns/B 44.45 MiB/s - c/B SHA3-224 | 3.43 ns/B 278.1 MiB/s - c/B SHA3-256 | 3.13 ns/B 305.0 MiB/s - c/B SHA3-384 | 4.98 ns/B 191.5 MiB/s - c/B SHA3-512 | 7.54 ns/B 126.4 MiB/s - c/B SHAKE128 | 3.79 ns/B 251.6 MiB/s - c/B SHAKE256 | 4.13 ns/B 230.9 MiB/s - c/B BLAKE2B_512 | 1.41 ns/B 675.8 MiB/s - c/B BLAKE2B_384 | 1.27 ns/B 752.8 MiB/s - c/B BLAKE2B_256 | 1.00 ns/B 950.2 MiB/s - c/B BLAKE2B_160 | 1.43 ns/B 666.4 MiB/s - c/B BLAKE2S_256 | 2.72 ns/B 350.5 MiB/s - c/B BLAKE2S_224 | 2.50 ns/B 381.9 MiB/s - c/B BLAKE2S_160 | 2.54 ns/B 375.8 MiB/s - c/B BLAKE2S_128 | 3.57 ns/B 267.5 MiB/s - c/B =3D MAC: | nanosecs/byte mebibytes/sec cycles/byte HMAC_SHA256 | 7.88 ns/B 121.0 MiB/s - c/B HMAC_SHA224 | 6.09 ns/B 156.6 MiB/s - c/B HMAC_SHA512 | 3.66 ns/B 260.7 MiB/s - c/B HMAC_SHA384 | 3.65 ns/B 261.5 MiB/s - c/B HMAC_SHA1 | 1.76 ns/B 543.3 MiB/s - c/B HMAC_MD5 | 2.34 ns/B 407.0 MiB/s - c/B HMAC_MD4 | 1.26 ns/B 759.7 MiB/s - c/B HMAC_RIPEMD160 | 2.72 ns/B 350.2 MiB/s - c/B HMAC_TIGER | 2.09 ns/B 455.3 MiB/s - c/B HMAC_WHIRLPOOL | 6.19 ns/B 154.0 MiB/s - c/B HMAC_GOSTR3411_94 | 20.51 ns/B 46.50 MiB/s - c/B HMAC_STRIBOG256 | 15.72 ns/B 60.68 MiB/s - c/B HMAC_STRIBOG512 | 14.31 ns/B 66.65 MiB/s - c/B HMAC_SHA3_224 | 4.05 ns/B 235.3 MiB/s - c/B HMAC_SHA3_256 | 5.04 ns/B 189.1 MiB/s - c/B HMAC_SHA3_384 | 4.77 ns/B 199.8 MiB/s - c/B HMAC_SHA3_512 | 8.37 ns/B 114.0 MiB/s - c/B CMAC_AES | 1.02 ns/B 934.4 MiB/s - c/B CMAC_3DES | 32.81 ns/B 29.06 MiB/s - c/B CMAC_CAMELLIA | 7.62 ns/B 125.2 MiB/s - c/B CMAC_CAST5 | 11.41 ns/B 83.56 MiB/s - c/B CMAC_BLOWFISH | 8.58 ns/B 111.1 MiB/s - c/B CMAC_TWOFISH | 5.42 ns/B 175.9 MiB/s - c/B CMAC_SERPENT | 12.34 ns/B 77.26 MiB/s - c/B CMAC_SEED | 13.29 ns/B 71.77 MiB/s - c/B CMAC_RFC2268 | 20.72 ns/B 46.02 MiB/s - c/B CMAC_IDEA | 10.90 ns/B 87.53 MiB/s - c/B CMAC_GOST28147 | 17.93 ns/B 53.20 MiB/s - c/B GMAC_AES | 0.180 ns/B 5290.1 MiB/s - c/B GMAC_CAMELLIA | 0.190 ns/B 5012.5 MiB/s - c/B GMAC_TWOFISH | 0.257 ns/B 3708.6 MiB/s - c/B GMAC_SERPENT | 0.194 ns/B 4928.4 MiB/s - c/B GMAC_SEED | 0.170 ns/B 5601.3 MiB/s - c/B POLY1305 | 0.228 ns/B 4189.0 MiB/s - c/B POLY1305_AES | 0.216 ns/B 4423.9 MiB/s - c/B POLY1305_CAMELLIA | 0.219 ns/B 4356.0 MiB/s - c/B POLY1305_TWOFISH | 0.250 ns/B 3819.6 MiB/s - c/B POLY1305_SERPENT | 0.275 ns/B 3466.6 MiB/s - c/B POLY1305_SEED | 0.619 ns/B 1540.4 MiB/s - c/B =3D Cipher: IDEA | nanosecs/byte mebibytes/sec cycles/byte ECB enc | 9.27 ns/B 102.9 MiB/s - c/B ECB dec | 9.58 ns/B 99.50 MiB/s - c/B CBC enc | 10.77 ns/B 88.54 MiB/s - c/B CBC dec | 9.99 ns/B 95.44 MiB/s - c/B CFB enc | 11.69 ns/B 81.61 MiB/s - c/B CFB dec | 10.84 ns/B 88.00 MiB/s - c/B OFB enc | 10.60 ns/B 89.99 MiB/s - c/B OFB dec | 13.69 ns/B 69.65 MiB/s - c/B CTR enc | 11.27 ns/B 84.61 MiB/s - c/B CTR dec | 11.46 ns/B 83.24 MiB/s - c/B =3D 3DES | nanosecs/byte mebibytes/sec cycles/byte ECB enc | 29.90 ns/B 31.89 MiB/s - c/B ECB dec | 30.90 ns/B 30.86 MiB/s - c/B CBC enc | 29.57 ns/B 32.25 MiB/s - c/B CBC dec | 17.03 ns/B 56.01 MiB/s - c/B CFB enc | 30.84 ns/B 30.92 MiB/s - c/B CFB dec | 15.41 ns/B 61.88 MiB/s - c/B OFB enc | 28.20 ns/B 33.82 MiB/s - c/B OFB dec | 31.36 ns/B 30.41 MiB/s - c/B CTR enc | 13.62 ns/B 70.02 MiB/s - c/B CTR dec | 18.36 ns/B 51.94 MiB/s - c/B =3D CAST5 | nanosecs/byte mebibytes/sec cycles/byte ECB enc | 8.69 ns/B 109.8 MiB/s - c/B ECB dec | 9.14 ns/B 104.3 MiB/s - c/B CBC enc | 10.00 ns/B 95.34 MiB/s - c/B CBC dec | 3.77 ns/B 252.7 MiB/s - c/B CFB enc | 10.51 ns/B 90.71 MiB/s - c/B CFB dec | 3.48 ns/B 274.3 MiB/s - c/B OFB enc | 10.56 ns/B 90.32 MiB/s - c/B OFB dec | 9.28 ns/B 102.8 MiB/s - c/B CTR enc | 3.33 ns/B 286.3 MiB/s - c/B CTR dec | 4.07 ns/B 234.6 MiB/s - c/B =3D BLOWFISH | nanosecs/byte mebibytes/sec cycles/byte ECB enc | 7.39 ns/B 129.0 MiB/s - c/B ECB dec | 6.62 ns/B 144.0 MiB/s - c/B CBC enc | 8.99 ns/B 106.1 MiB/s - c/B CBC dec | 2.78 ns/B 343.4 MiB/s - c/B CFB enc | 9.28 ns/B 102.7 MiB/s - c/B CFB dec | 2.72 ns/B 351.0 MiB/s - c/B OFB enc | 9.78 ns/B 97.49 MiB/s - c/B OFB dec | 9.07 ns/B 105.2 MiB/s - c/B CTR enc | 2.86 ns/B 333.8 MiB/s - c/B CTR dec | 2.87 ns/B 332.1 MiB/s - c/B =3D AES | nanosecs/byte mebibytes/sec cycles/byte ECB enc | 0.563 ns/B 1694.0 MiB/s - c/B ECB dec | 0.529 ns/B 1801.6 MiB/s - c/B CBC enc | 1.05 ns/B 906.3 MiB/s - c/B CBC dec | 0.210 ns/B 4549.1 MiB/s - c/B CFB enc | 1.09 ns/B 873.7 MiB/s - c/B CFB dec | 0.217 ns/B 4403.4 MiB/s - c/B OFB enc | 1.15 ns/B 831.2 MiB/s - c/B OFB dec | 1.10 ns/B 870.3 MiB/s - c/B CTR enc | 0.214 ns/B 4465.8 MiB/s - c/B CTR dec | 0.213 ns/B 4480.8 MiB/s - c/B XTS enc | 0.695 ns/B 1372.7 MiB/s - c/B XTS dec | 0.451 ns/B 2113.5 MiB/s - c/B CCM enc | 1.44 ns/B 661.5 MiB/s - c/B CCM dec | 1.09 ns/B 876.1 MiB/s - c/B CCM auth | 1.09 ns/B 874.1 MiB/s - c/B GCM enc | 0.409 ns/B 2330.5 MiB/s - c/B GCM dec | 0.374 ns/B 2549.3 MiB/s - c/B GCM auth | 0.189 ns/B 5040.8 MiB/s - c/B OCB enc | 0.204 ns/B 4685.7 MiB/s - c/B OCB dec | 0.212 ns/B 4506.9 MiB/s - c/B OCB auth | 0.210 ns/B 4551.2 MiB/s - c/B =3D AES192 | nanosecs/byte mebibytes/sec cycles/byte ECB enc | 0.476 ns/B 2004.8 MiB/s - c/B ECB dec | 0.601 ns/B 1587.4 MiB/s - c/B CBC enc | 0.975 ns/B 978.4 MiB/s - c/B CBC dec | 0.244 ns/B 3906.8 MiB/s - c/B CFB enc | 1.37 ns/B 697.9 MiB/s - c/B CFB dec | 0.251 ns/B 3799.2 MiB/s - c/B OFB enc | 1.28 ns/B 745.5 MiB/s - c/B OFB dec | 1.30 ns/B 731.2 MiB/s - c/B CTR enc | 0.301 ns/B 3168.2 MiB/s - c/B CTR dec | 0.277 ns/B 3445.5 MiB/s - c/B XTS enc | -0.041 ns/B -23107.203 MiB/s - c/B XTS dec | -0.745 ns/B -1279.795 MiB/s - c/B CCM enc | 1.49 ns/B 638.3 MiB/s - c/B CCM dec | 1.24 ns/B 768.4 MiB/s - c/B CCM auth | 0.613 ns/B 1555.6 MiB/s - c/B GCM enc | 0.446 ns/B 2138.3 MiB/s - c/B GCM dec | 0.527 ns/B 1811.3 MiB/s - c/B GCM auth | -0.099 ns/B -9647.185 MiB/s - c/B OCB enc | 0.221 ns/B 4312.5 MiB/s - c/B OCB dec | 0.342 ns/B 2792.1 MiB/s - c/B OCB auth | 0.267 ns/B 3567.6 MiB/s - c/B =3D AES256 | nanosecs/byte mebibytes/sec cycles/byte ECB enc | 0.602 ns/B 1584.6 MiB/s - c/B ECB dec | 0.544 ns/B 1753.8 MiB/s - c/B CBC enc | 1.30 ns/B 736.0 MiB/s - c/B CBC dec | 0.305 ns/B 3127.8 MiB/s - c/B CFB enc | 1.34 ns/B 710.8 MiB/s - c/B CFB dec | 0.306 ns/B 3115.5 MiB/s - c/B OFB enc | 1.35 ns/B 704.0 MiB/s - c/B OFB dec | 1.52 ns/B 625.8 MiB/s - c/B CTR enc | 0.316 ns/B 3022.3 MiB/s - c/B CTR dec | 0.237 ns/B 4029.4 MiB/s - c/B XTS enc | 0.545 ns/B 1751.0 MiB/s - c/B XTS dec | 0.918 ns/B 1039.1 MiB/s - c/B CCM enc | 1.67 ns/B 569.9 MiB/s - c/B CCM dec | 1.78 ns/B 536.4 MiB/s - c/B CCM auth | 1.24 ns/B 770.6 MiB/s - c/B GCM enc | 0.522 ns/B 1827.9 MiB/s - c/B GCM dec | 0.417 ns/B 2285.0 MiB/s - c/B GCM auth | 0.043 ns/B 22338.7 MiB/s - c/B OCB enc | 0.580 ns/B 1644.8 MiB/s - c/B OCB dec | 0.206 ns/B 4619.0 MiB/s - c/B OCB auth | 0.130 ns/B 7335.4 MiB/s - c/B =3D TWOFISH | nanosecs/byte mebibytes/sec cycles/byte ECB enc | 6.18 ns/B 154.4 MiB/s - c/B ECB dec | 5.72 ns/B 166.7 MiB/s - c/B CBC enc | 4.17 ns/B 228.7 MiB/s - c/B CBC dec | 2.24 ns/B 426.1 MiB/s - c/B CFB enc | 5.34 ns/B 178.7 MiB/s - c/B CFB dec | 2.80 ns/B 340.1 MiB/s - c/B OFB enc | 5.57 ns/B 171.3 MiB/s - c/B OFB dec | 6.67 ns/B 142.9 MiB/s - c/B CTR enc | 1.70 ns/B 560.9 MiB/s - c/B CTR dec | 2.25 ns/B 423.4 MiB/s - c/B XTS enc | 8.17 ns/B 116.7 MiB/s - c/B XTS dec | 5.93 ns/B 160.8 MiB/s - c/B CCM enc | 9.88 ns/B 96.52 MiB/s - c/B CCM dec | 7.53 ns/B 126.7 MiB/s - c/B CCM auth | 5.87 ns/B 162.4 MiB/s - c/B GCM enc | 2.15 ns/B 442.6 MiB/s - c/B GCM dec | 2.16 ns/B 442.2 MiB/s - c/B GCM auth | 0.652 ns/B 1462.4 MiB/s - c/B OCB enc | 2.02 ns/B 472.2 MiB/s - c/B OCB dec | 4.34 ns/B 220.0 MiB/s - c/B OCB auth | 1.36 ns/B 701.5 MiB/s - c/B =3D ARCFOUR | nanosecs/byte mebibytes/sec cycles/byte STREAM enc | 1.60 ns/B 594.3 MiB/s - c/B STREAM dec | 1.49 ns/B 640.5 MiB/s - c/B =3D DES | nanosecs/byte mebibytes/sec cycles/byte ECB enc | 12.66 ns/B 75.33 MiB/s - c/B ECB dec | 12.70 ns/B 75.12 MiB/s - c/B CBC enc | 14.63 ns/B 65.19 MiB/s - c/B CBC dec | 14.61 ns/B 65.30 MiB/s - c/B CFB enc | 15.61 ns/B 61.09 MiB/s - c/B CFB dec | 14.60 ns/B 65.31 MiB/s - c/B OFB enc | 13.49 ns/B 70.69 MiB/s - c/B OFB dec | 14.57 ns/B 65.45 MiB/s - c/B CTR enc | 13.23 ns/B 72.08 MiB/s - c/B CTR dec | 14.65 ns/B 65.08 MiB/s - c/B =3D TWOFISH128 | nanosecs/byte mebibytes/sec cycles/byte ECB enc | 5.82 ns/B 164.0 MiB/s - c/B ECB dec | 5.86 ns/B 162.8 MiB/s - c/B CBC enc | 5.68 ns/B 168.0 MiB/s - c/B CBC dec | 2.17 ns/B 440.2 MiB/s - c/B CFB enc | 5.02 ns/B 190.1 MiB/s - c/B CFB dec | 1.60 ns/B 597.2 MiB/s - c/B OFB enc | 6.97 ns/B 136.9 MiB/s - c/B OFB dec | 6.76 ns/B 141.1 MiB/s - c/B CTR enc | 2.24 ns/B 424.8 MiB/s - c/B CTR dec | 2.74 ns/B 348.4 MiB/s - c/B XTS enc | 6.34 ns/B 150.5 MiB/s - c/B XTS dec | 5.77 ns/B 165.3 MiB/s - c/B CCM enc | 8.96 ns/B 106.4 MiB/s - c/B CCM dec | 9.85 ns/B 96.84 MiB/s - c/B CCM auth | 5.93 ns/B 161.0 MiB/s - c/B GCM enc | 2.41 ns/B 395.9 MiB/s - c/B GCM dec | 1.78 ns/B 536.7 MiB/s - c/B GCM auth | 0.489 ns/B 1949.5 MiB/s - c/B OCB enc | 2.74 ns/B 348.3 MiB/s - c/B OCB dec | 2.48 ns/B 384.0 MiB/s - c/B OCB auth | 3.09 ns/B 308.7 MiB/s - c/B =3D SERPENT128 | nanosecs/byte mebibytes/sec cycles/byte ECB enc | 10.92 ns/B 87.30 MiB/s - c/B ECB dec | 13.03 ns/B 73.22 MiB/s - c/B CBC enc | 12.14 ns/B 78.53 MiB/s - c/B CBC dec | 1.66 ns/B 575.5 MiB/s - c/B CFB enc | 13.07 ns/B 72.96 MiB/s - c/B CFB dec | 1.60 ns/B 595.4 MiB/s - c/B OFB enc | 11.56 ns/B 82.51 MiB/s - c/B OFB dec | 12.11 ns/B 78.73 MiB/s - c/B CTR enc | 2.76 ns/B 345.0 MiB/s - c/B CTR dec | 2.01 ns/B 473.3 MiB/s - c/B XTS enc | 15.68 ns/B 60.81 MiB/s - c/B XTS dec | 12.56 ns/B 75.96 MiB/s - c/B CCM enc | 13.79 ns/B 69.13 MiB/s - c/B CCM dec | 13.87 ns/B 68.74 MiB/s - c/B CCM auth | 12.80 ns/B 74.48 MiB/s - c/B GCM enc | 1.89 ns/B 504.4 MiB/s - c/B GCM dec | 2.16 ns/B 442.4 MiB/s - c/B GCM auth | 0.293 ns/B 3255.0 MiB/s - c/B OCB enc | 1.83 ns/B 519.7 MiB/s - c/B OCB dec | 1.50 ns/B 635.4 MiB/s - c/B OCB auth | 1.18 ns/B 809.3 MiB/s - c/B =3D SERPENT192 | nanosecs/byte mebibytes/sec cycles/byte ECB enc | 12.68 ns/B 75.20 MiB/s - c/B ECB dec | 12.33 ns/B 77.37 MiB/s - c/B CBC enc | 13.15 ns/B 72.52 MiB/s - c/B CBC dec | 1.58 ns/B 605.5 MiB/s - c/B CFB enc | 12.16 ns/B 78.42 MiB/s - c/B CFB dec | 1.63 ns/B 584.0 MiB/s - c/B OFB enc | 12.87 ns/B 74.09 MiB/s - c/B OFB dec | 11.71 ns/B 81.41 MiB/s - c/B CTR enc | 1.52 ns/B 628.8 MiB/s - c/B CTR dec | 1.41 ns/B 678.3 MiB/s - c/B XTS enc | 13.51 ns/B 70.56 MiB/s - c/B XTS dec | 16.33 ns/B 58.41 MiB/s - c/B CCM enc | 15.01 ns/B 63.55 MiB/s - c/B CCM dec | 15.28 ns/B 62.41 MiB/s - c/B CCM auth | 12.70 ns/B 75.06 MiB/s - c/B GCM enc | 2.04 ns/B 467.7 MiB/s - c/B GCM dec | 1.96 ns/B 486.0 MiB/s - c/B GCM auth | 0.073 ns/B 13136.3 MiB/s - c/B OCB enc | 2.51 ns/B 380.0 MiB/s - c/B OCB dec | 1.57 ns/B 607.9 MiB/s - c/B OCB auth | 1.73 ns/B 551.8 MiB/s - c/B =3D SERPENT256 | nanosecs/byte mebibytes/sec cycles/byte ECB enc | 12.71 ns/B 75.03 MiB/s - c/B ECB dec | 13.01 ns/B 73.29 MiB/s - c/B CBC enc | 14.46 ns/B 65.97 MiB/s - c/B CBC dec | 1.71 ns/B 556.2 MiB/s - c/B CFB enc | 13.09 ns/B 72.84 MiB/s - c/B CFB dec | 1.26 ns/B 754.9 MiB/s - c/B OFB enc | 13.36 ns/B 71.41 MiB/s - c/B OFB dec | 11.73 ns/B 81.31 MiB/s - c/B CTR enc | 1.81 ns/B 526.7 MiB/s - c/B CTR dec | 1.50 ns/B 637.6 MiB/s - c/B XTS enc | 14.42 ns/B 66.12 MiB/s - c/B XTS dec | 12.65 ns/B 75.41 MiB/s - c/B CCM enc | 14.63 ns/B 65.21 MiB/s - c/B CCM dec | 16.47 ns/B 57.89 MiB/s - c/B CCM auth | 13.98 ns/B 68.19 MiB/s - c/B GCM enc | 2.07 ns/B 461.7 MiB/s - c/B GCM dec | 1.60 ns/B 597.5 MiB/s - c/B GCM auth | 0.055 ns/B 17457.7 MiB/s - c/B OCB enc | 1.52 ns/B 629.3 MiB/s - c/B OCB dec | 1.43 ns/B 668.3 MiB/s - c/B OCB auth | 1.37 ns/B 695.9 MiB/s - c/B =3D RFC2268_40 | nanosecs/byte mebibytes/sec cycles/byte ECB enc | 19.37 ns/B 49.22 MiB/s - c/B ECB dec | 11.41 ns/B 83.55 MiB/s - c/B CBC enc | 19.11 ns/B 49.90 MiB/s - c/B CBC dec | 11.12 ns/B 85.79 MiB/s - c/B CFB enc | 19.52 ns/B 48.86 MiB/s - c/B CFB dec | 18.24 ns/B 52.27 MiB/s - c/B OFB enc | 19.28 ns/B 49.47 MiB/s - c/B OFB dec | 18.40 ns/B 51.82 MiB/s - c/B CTR enc | 21.13 ns/B 45.13 MiB/s - c/B CTR dec | 20.63 ns/B 46.22 MiB/s - c/B =3D RFC2268_128 | nanosecs/byte mebibytes/sec cycles/byte ECB enc | 19.30 ns/B 49.42 MiB/s - c/B ECB dec | 10.48 ns/B 90.96 MiB/s - c/B CBC enc | 18.79 ns/B 50.75 MiB/s - c/B CBC dec | 10.27 ns/B 92.86 MiB/s - c/B CFB enc | 19.84 ns/B 48.08 MiB/s - c/B CFB dec | 19.65 ns/B 48.54 MiB/s - c/B OFB enc | 19.82 ns/B 48.12 MiB/s - c/B OFB dec | 18.75 ns/B 50.87 MiB/s - c/B CTR enc | 19.97 ns/B 47.76 MiB/s - c/B CTR dec | 19.76 ns/B 48.26 MiB/s - c/B =3D SEED | nanosecs/byte mebibytes/sec cycles/byte ECB enc | 11.93 ns/B 79.95 MiB/s - c/B ECB dec | 12.54 ns/B 76.03 MiB/s - c/B CBC enc | 13.79 ns/B 69.16 MiB/s - c/B CBC dec | 12.76 ns/B 74.73 MiB/s - c/B CFB enc | 13.41 ns/B 71.11 MiB/s - c/B CFB dec | 13.63 ns/B 69.99 MiB/s - c/B OFB enc | 14.28 ns/B 66.81 MiB/s - c/B OFB dec | 13.50 ns/B 70.66 MiB/s - c/B CTR enc | 15.52 ns/B 61.43 MiB/s - c/B CTR dec | 14.71 ns/B 64.82 MiB/s - c/B XTS enc | 12.11 ns/B 78.73 MiB/s - c/B XTS dec | 13.45 ns/B 70.93 MiB/s - c/B CCM enc | 24.85 ns/B 38.37 MiB/s - c/B CCM dec | 28.53 ns/B 33.43 MiB/s - c/B CCM auth | 14.21 ns/B 67.10 MiB/s - c/B GCM enc | 13.74 ns/B 69.39 MiB/s - c/B GCM dec | 15.39 ns/B 61.99 MiB/s - c/B GCM auth | -0.027 ns/B -34911.782 MiB/s - c/B OCB enc | 12.85 ns/B 74.23 MiB/s - c/B OCB dec | 12.12 ns/B 78.66 MiB/s - c/B OCB auth | 12.73 ns/B 74.91 MiB/s - c/B =3D CAMELLIA128 | nanosecs/byte mebibytes/sec cycles/byte ECB enc | 7.34 ns/B 130.0 MiB/s - c/B ECB dec | 7.73 ns/B 123.4 MiB/s - c/B CBC enc | 7.48 ns/B 127.5 MiB/s - c/B CBC dec | 1.21 ns/B 790.0 MiB/s - c/B CFB enc | 9.48 ns/B 100.6 MiB/s - c/B CFB dec | 0.902 ns/B 1057.0 MiB/s - c/B OFB enc | 7.72 ns/B 123.5 MiB/s - c/B OFB dec | 8.65 ns/B 110.3 MiB/s - c/B CTR enc | 1.18 ns/B 805.3 MiB/s - c/B CTR dec | 1.08 ns/B 886.9 MiB/s - c/B XTS enc | 8.07 ns/B 118.2 MiB/s - c/B XTS dec | 7.04 ns/B 135.4 MiB/s - c/B CCM enc | 8.77 ns/B 108.8 MiB/s - c/B CCM dec | 9.26 ns/B 103.0 MiB/s - c/B CCM auth | 6.54 ns/B 145.7 MiB/s - c/B GCM enc | 1.17 ns/B 817.7 MiB/s - c/B GCM dec | 1.28 ns/B 744.7 MiB/s - c/B GCM auth | 0.176 ns/B 5421.6 MiB/s - c/B OCB enc | 1.04 ns/B 917.5 MiB/s - c/B OCB dec | 1.45 ns/B 657.6 MiB/s - c/B OCB auth | 1.76 ns/B 541.0 MiB/s - c/B =3D CAMELLIA192 | nanosecs/byte mebibytes/sec cycles/byte ECB enc | 8.81 ns/B 108.3 MiB/s - c/B ECB dec | 8.52 ns/B 111.9 MiB/s - c/B CBC enc | 11.35 ns/B 84.02 MiB/s - c/B CBC dec | 1.17 ns/B 814.4 MiB/s - c/B CFB enc | 10.51 ns/B 90.71 MiB/s - c/B CFB dec | 1.62 ns/B 588.7 MiB/s - c/B OFB enc | 9.92 ns/B 96.12 MiB/s - c/B OFB dec | 9.01 ns/B 105.8 MiB/s - c/B CTR enc | 1.34 ns/B 713.7 MiB/s - c/B CTR dec | 1.16 ns/B 822.4 MiB/s - c/B XTS enc | 10.30 ns/B 92.55 MiB/s - c/B XTS dec | 9.56 ns/B 99.79 MiB/s - c/B CCM enc | 12.08 ns/B 78.96 MiB/s - c/B CCM dec | 12.57 ns/B 75.86 MiB/s - c/B CCM auth | 9.50 ns/B 100.4 MiB/s - c/B GCM enc | 1.76 ns/B 542.8 MiB/s - c/B GCM dec | 1.89 ns/B 504.9 MiB/s - c/B GCM auth | 0.053 ns/B 18041.4 MiB/s - c/B OCB enc | 1.27 ns/B 752.8 MiB/s - c/B OCB dec | 0.992 ns/B 961.0 MiB/s - c/B OCB auth | 2.05 ns/B 465.9 MiB/s - c/B =3D CAMELLIA256 | nanosecs/byte mebibytes/sec cycles/byte ECB enc | 9.60 ns/B 99.39 MiB/s - c/B ECB dec | 9.88 ns/B 96.52 MiB/s - c/B CBC enc | 11.31 ns/B 84.34 MiB/s - c/B CBC dec | 1.67 ns/B 570.4 MiB/s - c/B CFB enc | 10.12 ns/B 94.21 MiB/s - c/B CFB dec | 1.39 ns/B 686.5 MiB/s - c/B OFB enc | 10.26 ns/B 92.95 MiB/s - c/B OFB dec | 11.66 ns/B 81.78 MiB/s - c/B CTR enc | 1.43 ns/B 668.2 MiB/s - c/B CTR dec | 2.28 ns/B 417.7 MiB/s - c/B XTS enc | 10.61 ns/B 89.89 MiB/s - c/B XTS dec | 8.48 ns/B 112.4 MiB/s - c/B CCM enc | 9.53 ns/B 100.1 MiB/s - c/B CCM dec | 10.89 ns/B 87.60 MiB/s - c/B CCM auth | 11.28 ns/B 84.53 MiB/s - c/B GCM enc | 1.57 ns/B 608.1 MiB/s - c/B GCM dec | 1.49 ns/B 640.7 MiB/s - c/B GCM auth | 0.040 ns/B 23843.4 MiB/s - c/B OCB enc | 1.54 ns/B 618.8 MiB/s - c/B OCB dec | 1.20 ns/B 791.4 MiB/s - c/B OCB auth | 1.01 ns/B 946.2 MiB/s - c/B =3D SALSA20 | nanosecs/byte mebibytes/sec cycles/byte STREAM enc | 1.48 ns/B 645.1 MiB/s - c/B STREAM dec | 1.16 ns/B 822.9 MiB/s - c/B =3D SALSA20R12 | nanosecs/byte mebibytes/sec cycles/byte STREAM enc | 0.448 ns/B 2127.6 MiB/s - c/B STREAM dec | 0.714 ns/B 1335.0 MiB/s - c/B =3D GOST28147 | nanosecs/byte mebibytes/sec cycles/byte ECB enc | 19.98 ns/B 47.73 MiB/s - c/B ECB dec | 16.07 ns/B 59.35 MiB/s - c/B CBC enc | 20.65 ns/B 46.18 MiB/s - c/B CBC dec | 17.75 ns/B 53.73 MiB/s - c/B CFB enc | 20.09 ns/B 47.47 MiB/s - c/B CFB dec | 19.05 ns/B 50.05 MiB/s - c/B OFB enc | 17.58 ns/B 54.24 MiB/s - c/B OFB dec | 18.68 ns/B 51.07 MiB/s - c/B CTR enc | 18.26 ns/B 52.24 MiB/s - c/B CTR dec | 18.90 ns/B 50.45 MiB/s - c/B =3D CHACHA20 | nanosecs/byte mebibytes/sec cycles/byte STREAM enc | 0.378 ns/B 2524.6 MiB/s - c/B STREAM dec | 0.420 ns/B 2268.8 MiB/s - c/B POLY1305 enc | 0.399 ns/B 2388.1 MiB/s - c/B POLY1305 dec | 0.551 ns/B 1731.2 MiB/s - c/B POLY1305 auth | 0.155 ns/B 6135.6 MiB/s - c/B =3D KDF: | nanosecs/iter cycles/iter PBKDF2-HMAC-MD5 | 619.5 - PBKDF2-HMAC-SHA1 | 558.2 - PBKDF2-HMAC-RIPEMD160 | 694.6 - PBKDF2-HMAC-TIGER192 | 576.0 - PBKDF2-HMAC-SHA256 | 1240.2 - PBKDF2-HMAC-SHA384 | 1429.4 - PBKDF2-HMAC-SHA512 | 1444.0 - PBKDF2-HMAC-SHA224 | 1198.0 - PBKDF2-HMAC-WHIRLPOOL | 1313.1 - PBKDF2-HMAC-TIGER | 803.5 - PBKDF2-HMAC-TIGER2 | 614.1 - PBKDF2-HMAC-GOSTR3411_94 | 4395.3 - PBKDF2-HMAC-STRIBOG256 | 5886.9 - PBKDF2-HMAC-STRIBOG512 | 7161.8 - PBKDF2-HMAC-GOSTR3411_CP | 4994.1 - PBKDF2-HMAC-SHA3-224 | 1423.7 - PBKDF2-HMAC-SHA3-256 | 1205.7 - PBKDF2-HMAC-SHA3-384 | 1377.1 - PBKDF2-HMAC-SHA3-512 | 1222.9 - PBKDF2-HMAC-BLAKE2B_512 | 1008.6 - PBKDF2-HMAC-BLAKE2B_384 | 990.7 - PBKDF2-HMAC-BLAKE2B_256 | 980.0 - PBKDF2-HMAC-BLAKE2B_160 | 953.9 - PBKDF2-HMAC-BLAKE2S_256 | 805.5 - PBKDF2-HMAC-BLAKE2S_224 | 857.1 - PBKDF2-HMAC-BLAKE2S_160 | 920.2 - PBKDF2-HMAC-BLAKE2S_128 | 712.3 - =3D =1B[0;32mPASS=1B[m: bench-slope =1B[1;34mSKIP=1B[m: hashtest-256g =1B[0;31m=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=1B[m =1B[0;31m2 of 27 tests failed=1B[m =1B[0;31m(1 test was not run)=1B[m =1B[0;31mPlease report to http://bugs.gnupg.org=1B[m =1B[0;31m=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=1B[m *** Error code 1 Stop. make[2]: stopped in /usr/ports/security/libgcrypt/work/libgcrypt-1.8.4/tes= ts *** Error code 1 Stop. make[1]: stopped in /usr/ports/security/libgcrypt/work/libgcrypt-1.8.4/tes= ts *** Error code 1 Stop. make: stopped in /usr/ports/security/libgcrypt/work/libgcrypt-1.8.4 root@BSD12Virt:/usr/ports/security/libgcrypt/work/libgcrypt-1.8.4 # exit exit Script done on Thu Aug 8 12:20:59 2019 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Aug 8 13:05:31 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 296BBCDE64 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 13:05:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from karl@denninger.net) Received: from colo1.denninger.net (colo1.denninger.net [104.236.120.189]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4647s55fTqz4Hq6 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 13:05:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from karl@denninger.net) Received: from denninger.net (ip68-1-57-197.pn.at.cox.net [68.1.57.197]) by colo1.denninger.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A797211093 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 09:04:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.10.15] (D5.Denninger.Net [192.168.10.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by denninger.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CDA4DA38B for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 08:04:22 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: Raspberry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <3064722a-2b98-4001-a6a2-5d9bc49eea49@optusnet.com.au> From: Karl Denninger Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=karl@denninger.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= 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X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of karl@denninger.net has no SPF policy when checking 104.236.120.189) smtp.mailfrom=karl@denninger.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.82 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; SIGNED_SMIME(-2.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; HAS_ATTACHMENT(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,multipart/alternative,text/plain]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.982,0]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[denninger.net]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:+,3:~,4:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14061, ipnet:104.236.64.0/18, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-2.64)[ip: (-9.86), ipnet: 104.236.64.0/18(-4.34), asn: 14061(1.05), country: US(-0.05)]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[197.57.1.68.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11] X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2019 13:05:31 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms040304050909070604050108 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 8/7/2019 20:24, MJ wrote: > Everything up to FreeBSD 12 runs on all Raspberry Pis EXCEPT Pi4 which > has no u-boot yet, no graphics, no usb and no framebuffer and no > networking. Apart from that, it's close! :-) > > FreeBSD has patchy results with SPI: using it may take some work on > your behalf. GPIO seems reasonable. > (That was as at 2018, I can't testify to changes this year) > > > On 8/08/2019 3:57 am, Brian Wood wrote: >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Shalom >> >> I found a site that has info about running FreeBSD 11 on >> Raspberry Pi's.=C2=A0 Is anyone running FreeBSD 12 or 13 on >> Raspberry Pi's?=C2=A0 Also is anyone self-hosting their site/service >> on a Raspberry Pi?=C2=A0 Thanks in advance. >> >> >> Brian >> Ebenezer Enterprises - Enjoying programming again. >> https://github.com/Ebenezer-group/onwards >> _______________________________________________ I run some fairly-complex embedded-style (think home security, monitoring, cameras, sensors, control, etc) on the Pi series and 12-STABLE works fine on both the Pi2 and Pi3 series.=C2=A0 The Pi3 has so= me features (e.g. built-in WiFi and Bluetooth, specifically) which are non-functional due to lack of driver support, but a plug-in USB WiFi dongle works perfectly well. GPIO and I2c both work properly; my code uses both. Just be aware that if you're doing anything I/O or seriously compute-intensive that the CPU and I/O arrangement on these boards is less-than-optimal.=C2=A0 In addition the lack of instruction-set crypto m= eans you can run into bottlenecks there if you're doing anything that requires cryptography, although for reasonable-performance stuff, which I do rely on heavily, it's fine. I build my own codebase using Crochet on my main systems; one of the other "gotchas" with the PIs isn't really a Pi thing at all -- it's that SD cards are designed for moderate volume of large writes (think photographs, music files and videos) which is wildly different than than the workload they see running as a general-purpose Unix box.=C2=A0 They a= re very slow in small-write, many-write use and over time can get unstable; when they fail their usual failure mode is to permanently write-lock themselves which results in an instant panic and typically a failure to reboot since the filesystem is corrupted by the event.=C2=A0 In an embedd= ed application this is unacceptable and is one of the reasons to build using Crochet since it runs R/O once operating with /etc and /var contained in a ramdisk. IMHO if you're thinking more of a "firewall or edge" appliance the Pi4 (once we have working code for it) may be a materially better choice but, if you need it now, I'd give serious consideration to the pcEngines SBCs.=C2=A0 I have a bunch of those in the field in that application and they've proven superb over time -- they too can boot of SD card but also have a mSATA port internally which means they can use a M2 SSD which is a LOT faster and more-stable than using SD media.=C2=A0 In addition they = have multiple gigabit interfaces and have no hardware infirmities in being able to actually drive them at wire speed, plus having AESNI instructions if you are using them as a VPN gateway they are a LOT faster than the Pi units are in such an application.=C2=A0 I use NanoBSD = for those too and boot from the (full-size) SD slot simply to make them "power fail safe" on restart. To get it running and start working with it the snapshots or RELEASE codebase is fine. --=20 Karl Denninger karl@denninger.net /The Market Ticker/ /[S/MIME encrypted email preferred]/ --------------ms040304050909070604050108 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgMFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCC DdgwggagMIIEiKADAgECAhMA5EiKghDOXrvfxYxjITXYDdhIMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMIGL MQswCQYDVQQGEwJVUzEQMA4GA1UECAwHRmxvcmlkYTESMBAGA1UEBwwJTmljZXZpbGxlMRkw FwYDVQQKDBBDdWRhIFN5c3RlbXMgTExDMRgwFgYDVQQLDA9DdWRhIFN5c3RlbXMgQ0ExITAf BgNVBAMMGEN1ZGEgU3lzdGVtcyBMTEMgMjAxNyBDQTAeFw0xNzA4MTcxNjQyMTdaFw0yNzA4 MTUxNjQyMTdaMHsxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlVTMRAwDgYDVQQIDAdGbG9yaWRhMRkwFwYDVQQKDBBD dWRhIFN5c3RlbXMgTExDMRgwFgYDVQQLDA9DdWRhIFN5c3RlbXMgQ0ExJTAjBgNVBAMMHEN1 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Your website =E2=80=9C Freebsddiary.org =E2=80=9D communicates in many diff= erent manners to the visitor. "If you build it properly they will come" *Wanna to give us a chance to revamp your website? * Love to share our credentials. *Kinds Regards,* *Jorge Miller* --------------------------------------------------------------------- Note: - Reply me with a "NO", if you are not interested. [image: beacon] From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Aug 8 16:06:01 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF1B2AA584 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 16:06:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hw@gc-24.de) Received: from mail.g4yg.de (mail.g4yg.de [85.16.78.202]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 464CsN71xdz4Vg3 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 16:06:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hw@gc-24.de) Received: from hw.v.h.gc-24.de ([192.168.220.17]) by mail.g4yg.de with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hvkvO-0000tF-1d for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Thu, 08 Aug 2019 18:05:58 +0200 Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 18:05:57 +0200 From: hw To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: kill -9 does nothing Message-Id: <20190808180557.abbdd74fcdb74806aed1fd98@gc-24.de> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 464CsN71xdz4Vg3 X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of hw@gc-24.de has no SPF policy when checking 85.16.78.202) smtp.mailfrom=hw@gc-24.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.74 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[gc-24.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.94)[0.940,0]; IP_SCORE(0.52)[asn: 9145(2.59), country: DE(-0.01)]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.92)[0.920,0]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.97)[0.967,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:9145, ipnet:85.16.0.0/16, country:DE]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2019 16:06:01 -0000 Hi, how do you get rid of unresponsive processes? Even 'kill -9' does nothing, and Firefox has a tendency to become unresponsive. I can't restart the server all the time and kick off all users in the process. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Aug 8 18:53:51 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 378B6AF560 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 18:53:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from grahamperrin@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wr1-x434.google.com (mail-wr1-x434.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::434]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 464Hb22BXRz4jt1 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 18:53:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from grahamperrin@gmail.com) Received: by mail-wr1-x434.google.com with SMTP id x1so46037310wrr.9 for ; Thu, 08 Aug 2019 11:53:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=YeyX/rB4jyAuVhL0wUDdF+8F/SRG6uRSU0rxe197HTo=; b=c3rXgZAFiW9zZ/W0HOrO0miiyRiLeNybnoK+rI3K7WkBFI8gmDmQvrx4LxlcQZhdBd 1C1JUOX+NnNUprKViSXpbgHaMo+L6tFlSEH5omVNDGpiGzClEBz6iSwxvAUCx9TBKUNE EqNOQ8bpCTv5uul5FcKzfPNeGgB0PY7IQoHyedmD7kY0lMhjsOXfMGv+AEt5uEyp1SVX lnQvY6XuwCQamVaiXr8XjN2SBxYxZYZttNaTlkEMDns2xXWSKAnJjBpqkLH/D6Q/UDit 5aq4g8M3hnFxj07341p0VnlzcKF8KXn24e8MrjJSEzcKI/jzszqFtnmVnw/17r0z3cYx J7aQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=YeyX/rB4jyAuVhL0wUDdF+8F/SRG6uRSU0rxe197HTo=; b=b2sH8oSrMwcSY14m8opJd/Wgzc+5JZtfeAFgZEsjR7FIQbxRoIEpCo1ma0JXJIj2Fw 9Y57bcTH44BiDp0oOCPWz5XifIRZkSrBnv9ImaxKHwshMUrANj1evkqiePIO4kxerwz0 1NV/Q9OgRIdIksg2ZNKuwKFtdJOT0rd1KNITS2QbSgbhZIBhNZjDQ1L3WPBNrpXFOYlY +NQCL2njnsQev+m5vgf9/pOezbjUjVP+dQHDQDO7iw05iGsurX06nCHX9flTi51vUFGB JgiBmPFifPsAsrs/Y2aNh1cQxGsLhwIFeVbfMv44TPSNP6JqjD3KWIBOuTRnSwDmwdpo ZQZQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVjSSyAWSICe7b3bCNuBif/v9fdCcN/dujU8OTlJ6eKRQIAgB39 t8OLNbPucAFVkVV2vc5oSo12v4meAd8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx5CWjKom8Eb05j+GvwoWVl+Dn0SxYjvuat++x+PW5mnnGEdtvOsd+a4+fLpgm8SyG0xhoz8Q== X-Received: by 2002:adf:e2c7:: with SMTP id d7mr7973189wrj.68.1565290427779; Thu, 08 Aug 2019 11:53:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.7] (79-66-151-94.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com. [79.66.151.94]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k9sm32562774wrd.46.2019.08.08.11.53.46 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=AEAD-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 08 Aug 2019 11:53:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: kill -9 does nothing To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20190808180557.abbdd74fcdb74806aed1fd98@gc-24.de> From: Graham Perrin Message-ID: Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 19:53:46 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20190808180557.abbdd74fcdb74806aed1fd98@gc-24.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 464Hb22BXRz4jt1 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=c3rXgZAF; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of grahamperrin@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::434 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=grahamperrin@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.99 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.994,0]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[94.151.66.79.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.10]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-9.64), ipnet: 2a00:1450::/32(-3.08), asn: 15169(-2.43), country: US(-0.05)]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[4.3.4.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.5.4.1.0.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2019 18:53:51 -0000 On 08/08/2019 17:05, hw wrote: > … Firefox has a tendency to become unresponsive. … Which version of the OS? From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Aug 8 18:58:30 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FF9FAF7D1 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 18:58:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from holgerdanske.com (holgerdanske.com [IPv6:2001:470:0:19b::b869:801b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "holgerdanske.com", Issuer "holgerdanske.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 464HhP0Zd1z4k6s for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 18:58:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from 99.100.19.101 ([99.100.19.101]) by holgerdanske.com with ESMTPSA (ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:TLSv1.2:Kx=ECDH:Au=RSA:Enc=AESGCM(128):Mac=AEAD) (SMTP-AUTH username dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, mechanism PLAIN) for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 11:55:59 -0700 Subject: Re: kill -9 does nothing To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20190808180557.abbdd74fcdb74806aed1fd98@gc-24.de> From: David Christensen Message-ID: <6bc66e1e-4525-eb60-af3f-4451fe34aa1e@holgerdanske.com> Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 11:55:59 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20190808180557.abbdd74fcdb74806aed1fd98@gc-24.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 464HhP0Zd1z4k6s X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpchrist@holgerdanske.com has no SPF policy when checking 2001:470:0:19b::b869:801b) smtp.mailfrom=dpchrist@holgerdanske.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.05 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.87)[-0.875,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-1.49)[ipnet: 2001:470::/32(-4.48), asn: 6939(-2.93), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.987,0]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[holgerdanske.com]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.59)[-0.595,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2019 18:58:30 -0000 On 8/8/19 9:05 AM, hw wrote: > Hi, > > how do you get rid of unresponsive processes? Even 'kill -9' does > nothing, and Firefox has a tendency to become unresponsive. I can't > restart the server all the time and kick off all users in the process. My FreeBSD 11.2 server does not have X or Firefox -- it has the console, an SSH server, jails, and one service per jail. Each jail has its primary server plus the SSH server. I use a laptop and an SSH client to do administration on the jail host and within each jail. The laptop has Firefox with Disconnect, HTTPS Everywhere, NoScript, and Privacy Badger extensions. Firefox is set to remember nothing. The extensions are set restrictive. I try to do one browsing task at a time. I temporarily loosen the various settings as required as I visit each site. When a task is done, I close Firefox and open a fresh copy for the next task; this wipes the old data and resets most settings. When Firefox locks up, I try to close it. If that fails, I use a terminal to kill it. If that fails, I reboot the laptop. The server has been up for 25 days. David From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Aug 8 19:08:21 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6B8FAFD42 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 19:08:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@boosten.org) Received: from smtpq2.mnd.mail.iss.as9143.net (smtpq2.mnd.mail.iss.as9143.net [212.54.34.165]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 464Hvm0JkTz4kmG for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 19:08:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@boosten.org) Received: from [212.54.34.118] (helo=smtp10.mnd.mail.iss.as9143.net) by smtpq2.mnd.mail.iss.as9143.net with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1hvnlp-00080o-DC; Thu, 08 Aug 2019 21:08:17 +0200 Received: from 84-25-247-31.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl ([84.25.247.31] helo=smtp.boosten.org) by smtp10.mnd.mail.iss.as9143.net with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1hvnlp-0000Yc-8R; Thu, 08 Aug 2019 21:08:17 +0200 Received: from mailserver.boosten.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.boosten.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3500D2146F; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 21:08:17 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at boosten.org Received: from smtp.boosten.org ([127.0.0.1]) by mailserver.boosten.org (mailserver.boosten.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id COjL6wnSBvxn; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 21:08:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from amon.boosten.org (Amon.boosten.org [192.168.13.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.boosten.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7E2D82145A; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 21:08:13 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: Re: kill -9 does nothing From: freebsd@boosten.org In-Reply-To: <6bc66e1e-4525-eb60-af3f-4451fe34aa1e@holgerdanske.com> Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 21:08:12 +0200 Cc: David Christensen Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20190808180557.abbdd74fcdb74806aed1fd98@gc-24.de> <6bc66e1e-4525-eb60-af3f-4451fe34aa1e@holgerdanske.com> To: Paul Macdonald via freebsd-questions X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-SourceIP: 84.25.247.31 X-Ziggo-spambar: / X-Ziggo-spamscore: 0.0 X-Ziggo-spamreport: CMAE Analysis: v=2.3 cv=V6kDLtvi c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=JWBJsaPp29SgP5DpYRBqZw==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=FmdZ9Uzk2mMA:10 a=ZubcGFkXAAAA:8 a=s_EXZTvFihh5EoZIVXEA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=kUx6feENxpTNjkNjdsbW:22 X-Ziggo-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Flag: No X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 464Hvm0JkTz4kmG X-Spamd-Bar: ------ X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.53 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[boosten.org:s=myselector]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:212.54.32.0/19]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(-2.94)[ip: (-8.60), ipnet: 212.54.32.0/20(-3.81), asn: 33915(-2.30), country: NL(0.01)]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[boosten.org:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_NO_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.993,0]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[boosten.org,quarantine]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[165.34.54.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[31.247.25.84.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:33915, ipnet:212.54.32.0/20, country:NL]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2019 19:08:21 -0000 > Op 8 aug. 2019, om 20:55 heeft David Christensen = het volgende geschreven: >=20 > On 8/8/19 9:05 AM, hw wrote: >> Hi, >> how do you get rid of unresponsive processes? Even 'kill -9' does >> nothing, and Firefox has a tendency to become unresponsive. I can't >> restart the server all the time and kick off all users in the = process. >=20 >=20 kind of irrelevant story You could try to kill its parent (ps -axd shows the processes in a kind = of tree like view). Peter From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Aug 8 23:46:45 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 534B9B6EC9 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 23:46:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lee@adminart.net) Received: from mo6-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de (mo6-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de [IPv6:2a01:238:20a:202:5300::4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "*.smtp.rzone.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 464Q50028fz3Kh2 for ; Thu, 8 Aug 2019 23:46:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lee@adminart.net) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1565307999; s=strato-dkim-0002; d=adminart.net; h=Message-ID:Date:Subject:To:From:X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH:From: Subject:Sender; bh=CzY+ahYHh0P1sbi8gAFZbKh+pgB/wW4QfVwRswl2tzk=; b=Ml6eDzKVXZ6z+ScGXAYDih7JVBKkvKBF3QoyDpWH81AF8r6oXBon9yz6UD2IULG/C0 sHRljxhjZT5UzrFvm4H2yfFSN9J5Ieg/srN7b+NGSYqsxnDo4f6UzNCFKU+INsidU4CX eNmRb2Fv6XyHYrteSDvssxf6/H29WR4UWYCNUfGRiWMLWl4F3a16Z2h8kr0FV9OfyxGz 1hIF+pcIIRmKcn0xcFfIUT4LLxuugXTrqLffKXVlrEzpHPyRuw8xruhnEg/KfojrkgNr D6lTFvrtdC2UUs+JEe8XhgGM6uGSbb+Efj/ahUuNgNK0vQcKiSI16oPeX2L+G6qA2Jhi dXjA== X-RZG-AUTH: ":O2kGeEG7b/pS1FS4THaxjVF9w0vVgfQ9xGcjwO5WMRo5c+h5ceMqQWZ3yrBp+ARdaXvxIDf7nlw=" X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Received: from himinbjorg.adminart.net by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 44.24 DYNA|AUTH) with ESMTPSA id e0059dv78NkdtL3 (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (curve secp521r1 with 521 ECDH bits, eq. 15360 bits RSA)) (Client did not present a certificate) for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 01:46:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from toy.adminart.net ([192.168.3.55]) by himinbjorg.adminart.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hvs7B-0001Bm-Kj for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Fri, 09 Aug 2019 01:46:37 +0200 Received: from lee by toy.adminart.net with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hvs7B-0001W5-AT for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Fri, 09 Aug 2019 01:46:37 +0200 From: hw To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Is NFS still broken in FreeBSD? Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2019 01:46:27 +0200 Organization: my virtual residence Message-ID: <87v9v7nru4.fsf@toy.adminart.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 464Q50028fz3Kh2 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=adminart.net header.s=strato-dkim-0002 header.b=Ml6eDzKV; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of lee@adminart.net has no SPF policy when checking 2a01:238:20a:202:5300::4) smtp.mailfrom=lee@adminart.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.86 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[adminart.net:s=strato-dkim-0002]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.991,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.997,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[adminart.net:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.996,0]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[adminart.net]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[hw@adminart.net,lee@adminart.net]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[4.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.3.5.2.0.2.0.a.0.2.0.8.3.2.0.1.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6724, ipnet:2a01:238::/32, country:DE]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[hw@adminart.net,lee@adminart.net]; IP_SCORE(-0.78)[ipnet: 2a01:238::/32(-3.42), asn: 6724(-0.46), country: DE(-0.01)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2019 23:46:45 -0000 Hi, according to [1], NFS in FreeBSD is broken, and I'm wondering if it still is. I need to export some directories rw and some ro with an /etc/exports like this: /b/tftpboot/FreeBSD/install -ro -maproot=root /p/default The "default" directory needs to be exported read-write. That seems to be impossible with FreeBSD --- if that is really so, NFS is totally broken in FreeBSD. To make it more strange, it worked as intended until I restarted the server. NFS v4 doesn't seem to work at all. This has cost me a whole day now :( [1]: https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/nfs-exports.35966/ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Aug 9 00:45:10 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C034BB808D for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 00:45:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com) Received: from out2-5.antispamcloud.com (out2-5.antispamcloud.com [185.201.17.5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 464RNP2wtwz3Mjh for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 00:45:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com) Received: from srv31.niagahoster.com ([153.92.8.106]) by mx128.antispamcloud.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hvt1k-000Bf1-7K for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Fri, 09 Aug 2019 02:45:06 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sumeritec.com; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type: MIME-Version:References:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date:Sender :Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help: List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=x8JenKjjY1Nttitvl5q7eNi1c8eSAVpeiOnABf3AoYo=; b=gLZTd6y2q0dkUB08dw1gKbq39n Jd5qy/pakwIA0PODFDoOdd1HdCGG+qp065r6SIl4YJgdp6DZLaEfyPx1ZFWWjXb3Yqkk2i54IT7cA 91RDBGDGO2ik8yeWOTmUo/9S4th5hohRyVwZ28hD0zwLKe2rXI6huEvGJUaMd8JF+PTlqHPRxEGgV qT0fsUtdwdiNTt4xUmUXcCOvYeBShRv3vj73QYoOLUkHDfebpG15pwpoTe3uph4SB3HrxTg+fG5Oi yp72ENAKql9sPRkSD6de6DmqioyJteSpOmHl2/Q9tatDe+uDI9whXG68/p+2paRr83OBO0OsWBisv b/1AxSrQ==; Received: from [114.125.119.173] (port=22644 helo=Ryzen1.sumeritec.com) by srv31.niagahoster.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hvt0t-000A5D-Cp; Fri, 09 Aug 2019 07:44:16 +0700 Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2019 08:44:09 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky To: hw Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is NFS still broken in FreeBSD? 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That seems > to be impossible with FreeBSD --- if that is really so, NFS is totally > broken in FreeBSD. To make it more strange, it worked as intended > until I restarted the server. NFS v4 doesn't seem to work at all. > > This has cost me a whole day now :( > > > [1]: https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/nfs-exports.35966/ I alkso learned recently that trusting FreeBSD's handbooks is wrong, but it looks to me that in you case, it would have helped. Erich From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Aug 9 09:21:52 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA12FC3557 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 09:21:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=iDvf=WF=perdition.city=julien@bebif.be) Received: from orval.bbpf.belspo.be (orval.bbpf.belspo.be [193.191.208.90]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 464frb6q0tz4HsF for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 09:21:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=iDvf=WF=perdition.city=julien@bebif.be) Received: from home.lan (unknown [77.109.104.154]) by orval.bbpf.belspo.be (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B18291D4FC23; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 11:21:49 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2019 11:21:42 +0200 From: Julien Cigar To: hw Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is NFS still broken in FreeBSD? Message-ID: <20190809092141.GA67645@home.lan> References: <87v9v7nru4.fsf@toy.adminart.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87v9v7nru4.fsf@toy.adminart.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.11.4 (2019-03-13) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 464frb6q0tz4HsF X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of SRS0=iDvf=WF=perdition.city=julien@bebif.be designates 193.191.208.90 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=SRS0=iDvf=WF=perdition.city=julien@bebif.be X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.78 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[perdition.city]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.997,0]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[90.208.191.193.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[julien@perdition.city,SRS0=iDvf=WF=perdition.city=julien@bebif.be]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[154.104.109.77.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:2611, ipnet:193.191.192.0/19, country:BE]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[julien@perdition.city,SRS0=iDvf=WF=perdition.city=julien@bebif.be]; IP_SCORE(-2.79)[ip: (-8.57), ipnet: 193.191.192.0/19(-4.28), asn: 2611(-1.08), country: BE(-0.00)]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2019 09:21:52 -0000 --LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 01:46:27AM +0200, hw wrote: > Hi, >=20 Hello, > according to [1], NFS in FreeBSD is broken, and I'm wondering if it > still is. >=20 define "broken"? NFS is used in production here for years and works like a charm. The only annoying issue was PR 205193 (as we use jails extensively), but it has now been fixed. > I need to export some directories rw and some ro with an /etc/exports > like this: >=20 >=20 > /b/tftpboot/FreeBSD/install -ro -maproot=3Droot > /p/default >=20 this is not a valid /etc/exports file, check man 5 exports >=20 > The "default" directory needs to be exported read-write. That seems to > be impossible with FreeBSD --- if that is really so, NFS is totally > broken in FreeBSD. To make it more strange, it worked as intended until > I restarted the server. NFS v4 doesn't seem to work at all. >=20 use something like: V4: /someroot -sec=3Dsys /someroot/default -rw -network somehost -mask somenetmask > This has cost me a whole day now :( also, for a NFS V4 only server/client you could set: vfs.nfsd.server_min_nfsvers=3D4 vfs.nfsd.server_max_nfsvers=3D4 >=20 >=20 > [1]: https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/nfs-exports.35966/ > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.o= rg" --=20 Julien Cigar Belgian Biodiversity Platform (http://www.biodiversity.be) PGP fingerprint: EEF9 F697 4B68 D275 7B11 6A25 B2BB 3710 A204 23C0 No trees were killed in the creation of this message. However, many electrons were terribly inconvenienced. --LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCgAdFiEE7vn2l0to0nV7EWolsrs3EKIEI8AFAl1NOyIACgkQsrs3EKIE I8CShw//flrI9AojiheTjE+d9g/DRG8vrk+hStpNIN4GPlCM/bAQYv6tOjPE9C+z ckW1CTZWn5KP20bBiFgsaP8fjPebbbVDkMPNgxtBnTLv8pd2xWeEGbHy63eibYOs 0jlNtZSItXD/HC8hQajPmN7ThP5+NKMFet5H03ZqcoVQIMQpZjE6zhoHXQnCVTqs CPEosrBqYMKJpKrvaON1U/qDWHu8tne2hXbno4M42/UvWOLol+zEd4PCKs2yTl46 uQD827lBZGIfor4dpVNTCM/TeylOLPrFkn4ipE+Q39BcpNeihXQi1qTpFZewb4+G t0yhSheu/Ew6ll8MIrakfFmrBnhfFfz6rxQSexiSjt+1iBmXYc/mqwR2z4qB3NpJ P81A9sFeMy+6nIRSE4G/iIPWyQSlE4QFY3Tg90J58M3kcoeui1HG9AM3ApLC48tp tDGh+D1zT8Jp6X739AO11FCK/34Fg4ZCGb63tqC2Wi8uptJZ8TpmYtmrM/xiaHEl sfYSCDPFR3oQQASJ+2XYYEe2qaCLDnPl4/LLMjnlWFeCSOi5KRaysZU6pWs4VdkH aPAuR5dhvyMUfnNu69j36TCbC/Ao8sKtHVIGUeBRD6k8L6b8gRSlHz3unWMdw4Ku qjh1oI6XQxROau6G0zONe8Fp6GANQnl0qrh5uFMqBZA3s+nERDI= =nLDP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Aug 9 09:33:42 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56FFCC39F4; 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bh=hX9wl38457SNmf86WztVwtpoEIFIv6tGprCX7D7NvH8=; b=c/rn/U9V4lD7eR6gFKbtCP62Kx XfEMqAoFOYF1kTHDgiJPhp3DVqMxP/zztQKU1Sldm8XFSlsEO42TNJODCVLCXXL32dI/XnnyEBYud l4DRiOcULciaJWNzTTHcGAjHEN4c4PZYNcZnv4mhqQ722gGnlU0iDZKXgb4xQUCfOnJmBQZrioJ3g crO5t8xlzPYWN+eSPZ1aJvOjugWjIye3f+l2kl/dY3qpIlLa2bJWaOUjPKeeDCDlb4Z3WzAOYmysa zPiFnj24bT2+Mc8UT7YqzpdTf/NQc4uXwfJzduEVIH0B/VfAzNCUoMr+OtUP/d3zdYdLjW36uG1NR i56cgz9g==; Received: from [114.125.118.127] (port=23274 helo=Ryzen1.sumeritec.com) by srv31.niagahoster.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hw1GI-0004ds-GR; Fri, 09 Aug 2019 16:32:44 +0700 Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2019 17:32:35 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky To: Daniel Eischen Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-threads@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mutex held in a thread which is cancelled stays busy Message-ID: <20190809173235.2b6aa029.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20190806165429.14bc4052.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <1FC05CEB-982F-484F-9E41-5A74FF564494@freebsd.org> <20190807071002.GF2731@kib.kiev.ua> <20190807163757.2b5d52fa.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <20190807092035.GG2731@kib.kiev.ua> <20190807182548.1a8e00dd.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; 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MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:49544, ipnet:185.201.17.0/24, country:NL]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2019 09:33:42 -0000 Hi, On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 13:26:31 -0400 Daniel Eischen wrote: > > On Aug 7, 2019, at 6:25 AM, Erich Dollansky > > wrote: > > > >> Erich, are you getting EBUSY for pthread_mutex_lock() or is that > >> only for pthread_mutex_trylock()? > >> > > EBUSY is only returned when I call 'pthread_mutex_trylock'. The > > other one just hangs. > > In this case, I think FreeBSD is behaving correctly. I think perhaps > the only problem is that the man page isn't reflecting the POSIX > wording. I only could go back to my test program now. I made the wrong assumption that 'EOWNERDEAD' will be repeated. This error message comes only one time. The caller has then to call 'pthread_mutex_consistent' to correct the error. Having a program which misses one return value leads to the problem I have had. At least we learned with this that FreeBSD's version of pthreads is a much more practical attempt than some others. Erich From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Aug 9 11:18:42 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3F33C5DE3 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 11:18:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.73]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 464jRN6S4Lz4QBR for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 11:18:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.117.171]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue107 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1N5n3t-1iP0q01Fql-017Dag; Fri, 09 Aug 2019 13:18:35 +0200 Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2019 13:18:33 +0200 From: Polytropon To: hw Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: thunderbird in German? Message-Id: <20190809131833.6057ca67.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <87wofpq4bb.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <87o91bw4mx.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190731012754.3783a859.freebsd@edvax.de> <23873.2939.410268.920612@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <20190731225154.82dcb0ae.freebsd@edvax.de> <87h8705waf.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190802050200.dd286e57.freebsd@edvax.de> <877e7v9wts.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190803040009.291039df.freebsd@edvax.de> <87y30aaptw.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190805064703.b1e29cbf.freebsd@edvax.de> <87wofpq4bb.fsf@toy.adminart.net> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:eH1QQBRw43utRmVO+lo8C7pNhUNIiT5lBrwtITzyOFpbNeDwcrt o+yFWRE+u5Cpfci12oBk/Q2EbC/+lvls4K3zOdov4dNz7Ol3263Xr4bxDPioFuMzVeHUt0l s9lA9DidQ51uCe1rmCUEbaU3vwxcA64tbUddqnimn3RlFsuuzxNf0qLRHCobSFQoPd2mvQn 4dbt4YEgNvLMgGYa9jR/A== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:4MNnfBpng+U=:SyF4n9UfGEiaQmF4s4YKRc xs1PPxcmlR44qJ/tvobXhmmk0B7en2LrLjlQMm8ztG4Duc2WzO/Qj+EXoWMY4wcNpXDv/ifF+ FO4UkW3R/4Df+sLD0RRW+Hmsq7MK1Qap60ASNV5RSxsY+1IQSGHSmbIXEQWDcKboRXEy0pZD5 5rPAUHRhy0jINmz+tkodzA4js3jL2wyOOiSXHqf+xWBRMNIzXv2918gMOEtgXW98u2OmnDwmv LdWa4miG5W3Ype+dDOV7L4EeU0+PbaIhH/QzDINV5IRiK7KV7QjxSEtjtz9kmhhUdL+lxCUVL /TGKEL3SoXWOXxrMkU+X6nxRNN4Gf8XPmQTx/I9Kxa93CmwE0p2I2HGGU3QkGa/PAX0HiZoTh TLwzRxIFTHzUYKsiDx4kl/uzpdbQjSJUhHrBJ0TmIe+Lapj5vv1neEr4Oq+mdumn962CG6vrG EpXnbfCpRxaqobYAKcvv3wOHhyzmfukcD13IF28K2nc3E13gitX7nnWLDqaAtqzgxMEbQgPLc oKpgFxsu74l9eTeFDj275J++xOUw+OYCOsvG3EgP41oh2zB7L+/w44VV/xGLPsmQKcbiOr7SF VxyUtVPw51cLKtWVBe2z9G1mHQHLo/0W+YrJgtL9YIO4s4SciAqVcKKsdsm8EWLHUDANtzjDw jcRHhNqnZUO3OUYarCX/GBqy8uc6cJ04pQn/4wkpoXJuHn/jIep/QNERCnkr7a1Kav1qIhiZs hM/3RFyquojtv8Upx/sVtO7TE6sUHYce94zDqWuHAU6kCm4pqAr2Jl1k3V8= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 464jRN6S4Lz4QBR X-Spamd-Bar: ++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 217.72.192.73) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [6.20 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[171.117.12.178.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:217.72.192.0/20, country:DE]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.25)[0.253,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.99)[0.995,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.99)[0.993,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[73.192.72.217.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(0.56)[ip: (0.34), ipnet: 217.72.192.0/20(0.19), asn: 8560(2.27), country: DE(-0.01)] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2019 11:18:42 -0000 On Wed, 07 Aug 2019 01:09:28 +0200, hw wrote: > Polytropon writes: >=20 > > On Sat, 03 Aug 2019 23:42:19 +0200, hw wrote: > >> Polytropon writes: > >>=20 > >> > On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 21:44:15 +0200, hw wrote: > >> >> Polytropon writes: > >> >>=20 > >> >> > On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 00:57:12 +0200, hw wrote: > >> >> >> Polytropon writes: > >> >>=20 > >> >> > [...] > >> >> I usually don't notice whether it's English or German, but the users > >> >> will freak out as if it would make a difference (which it doesn't > >> >> because they don't know what they're doing anyway). > >> > > >> > Same here. I prefer the english interface language because the > >> > german translation often is incomplete (english menu items among > >> > german ones) or wrong or missing (especially regarding error > >> > messages). > >>=20 > >> right > >>=20 > >> I think part of the problem is that Germany has almost entirely missed > >> out on this technology, hence there is neither any frame of mind that > >> could lead to good translations, nor are there words available that > >> would be required. > > > > Availability of words (especially for established termini technici) > > is not a problem. >=20 > That's only true when you=B4re referring to words nobody reckons. What is > the German word for "segmentation fault"? Speicherschutzverletzung. > You're gona have a hard time > even only translating "fault" because there is no such frame of mind in > German as to translate it. That is correct. You basically need two elements: 1. Without context, "fault" doesn't make sense to be translated "as is", as there are many possible meanings, from "schuld sein" to "St=F6rfall". 2. YOu cannot simply translate word for word, hoping to keep some of the original meaning. This is basically what you get when you run text through automated translation, or even human translation with the translating human not having access to context. Here is one of my favorites from a digital video recorder: Sprache: Deutscher Wolke verbinden erfrischen Qualit=E4t: gut, schlimmer, noch schlimmer, schlecht st=F6bern General Kameraeinstellungen Irahmen Abstand verbinden Sie den Hauptdatenstrom =F6ffnen Sie die entsprechenden lokaler Video Some things you can guess, others you can conclude, but what value has "Irahmen Abstand" (iframe distance?) for the user? None. Or what does happen when I open "die entsprechenden"? Die entsprechenden WAS? > When you realise that language --- though being created every time it is > being used --- is a requirement for recognition, and that language is > always bound to the particular frame of mind which is itself bound to > the language, you can see that it is impossible to give any good > translation into any language as long as the target language is not > bound to a suitable frame of mind. The frame of mind doesn't come to be > without words that are reckoned. This is why people who use multiple languages tend to think in that language when they write, just as I'm in "English mode" as I'm writing this, and this mode is totally different from the "German mode" I'd use otherwise. > > I think the mindset it the following: "Novice users > > won't read documentation anyway. Advanced users can understand the > > existing english documentation, so why translate it?" >=20 > The problem isn't the lack of translations, it's more the lack of > documentation. Let's say the lack of _good_ and _current_ documentation. Just like creating software, creating documentation is hard work that tends to be put in the last pages of the schedule (if there is one)... > > because the language skills of Germans regarding their own language is > > constantly decreasing due to the ongoing "spelling reforms" which > > cause writers to be unsure what spelling and punctuation rule is valid > > _now_... >=20 > The problem isn't that they are not sure how to write something.=20 In fact, it _is_ - it's both a part of the problem and a symptom of how the society in general fails to enable people to acquire one of the most fundamental social abilities. And it's not even that people recognize that problem: They assume their language skills are up to date, but when put under a test, it can be proven that they aren't. (Sidenote: I did some research on that topic many years ago.) > The > language skills have deteriorated with the rapidly declining > intelligence of the population in general, which goes on for many > reasons, like schools utterly designed to keep the students as stupid as > they can being only one of them. This is not surprising for the > population can be kept under control the easier the more stuid it is. Richard Feynman: "What I cannot create, I do not understand." Creation is (more or less) the opposite of consumtion, which, in increasing amount, is required (or _claimed_ to be required) for the society to survive and to work at all. Without the knowledge that this isn't true, there's nothing to do about it. > >> If there was a suitable frame of mind, there would > >> probably be words, though it might be difficult to find a frame of mind > >> without the suitable words. > > > > One core problem is that english words are simply interwoven in a > > german sentence, like "wenn der Computer idle ist", where a german > > translation would be possible (and useful, especially if there is > > no explanation of what "idle" means. >=20 > What's the German word for "idle"? "When the computer is idle ..." also > does not give any explanation for what "idle" means (and it remains > unclear whether you mean "if" or "when"). The "idle" example is something I got first hand when I was at the university. Tutor: "... and this will be performed when the main loop is idle." Student: "What does 'idle' mean?" Tutor: "'Idle' is when the computer is idle." Now you know it. ;-) Again, the frame of mind, the context matters on how to translate "idle". In this case, it's even a bit harder because there is no "one word" I could imagine that conveys the meaning of "a system that is idle, i. e., which does not have processing load at the moment"... > > But keep in mind Germans, before 1990, were able to use programs > > provided in English, because there simply was no other language > > version available. This especially applied to the 8-bit era and > > the mainframe use. >=20 > Programs are still in English. I'm talking about the availability of programs developed for german users (i. e., with a "natural" german user interface, from the beginning), or programs with the option to switch to the german language, like Thunderbird. German users prefer german programs. > Or has someone invented a German > programming language and lots of programmers use it? Has there been a > German operating system been developed? Yes, but in the past, many decades ago, and nobody knows about it (except me, because I'm a living museum)... ;-) > Don't forget the lazyness ... Lazyness is why I don't want to learn the slightest english words, but expect everything everywhere in German, and the program must look and behave like the pirated version I had 20 years ago. :-) > >> It took years before I finally figured out that "allgemeine > >> Schutzverletzung" is supposed to mean "segmentation fault". > > > > The correct TT is "Speicherschutzverletzung", as segmentation > > refers to memory. :-) >=20 > That is not a word, and suggesting that "memory" had anything to do with > "Speicher" is just another misconception that tries to ignore the frame > of mind in lack of one. In my opinion and experience, that translation is acceptable, even though the concept of "segmentation" is lost, but the basic meaning is still intact, unlike "Segmentierungsst=F6rung" which is more or less a "correct" translation ("word-wise"), but in the end, nonsense. "Memory" has many meanings, from "Ged=E4chtnis" to "Speicher" and "Erinnerung". "Speicher" is the established terminus technicus in German, so it's the appropriate base for a compound word. Or what would you suggest? I still remember the word "G=FCltigkeitsbereichszugriffsoperator" from Borland C... :-) > > And a classic one: "Help! My PC says I performed an illegal > > abortion!!!" ;-) >=20 > Did one ever say that? I think this is the result of not reading what's on the screen, like "Did the computer provide you an error message?" - "Yes, but I didn't read it, because it's all just words and letters." The "illegal abortion" is probably "illegal instruction" and "program abort". Anyway, when I write a program, I'll make sure it will accuse the user of illegal abortion when an error appers. :-) > >> I wouldn't > >> even call that a translation; it only shows that whoever came up with = it > >> had no clue what they were translating. Segmentation fault makes > >> perfect sense in English and none whatsoever in German because there is > >> no frame of mind with which anyone could understand what it means. I'd > >> call it "Arbeitsspeicherbereichstrennungs=FCberschreitung", and noone > >> would understand that, either. > > > > The logical conclusion would be "Segmentierung" while explaining > > what this means in the context of memory, and next to "fault", > > there's also "violation" where more than one possible translation > > exists; I'd say "=DCberschreitung" or "Verletzung" would be a good > > one in _this_ context. >=20 > "Segmentierung" is not a German word. It is, derived from "Segment", from latin "segmentum". THe suffix "-ierung" indicates an act based on the main word. > "Fault" is intentionally vague > here; if it didn't sound so bad and if it were fitting the frame of > mind, it would probably be called "segmentation mistake". Note there's also the TT "segmentation violation", which is a harsher tone. > You can be creative and call it "Aufteilungsversehen". It's even better > because it doesn't involve "Speicher" like it doesn't to begin with, yet > it is still meaningless. Well, "Versehen" sounds much more like "happy accident", and it doesn't fit the context. > > [...] > >> > Would you say KDE is usable again for "german novice users"? > >> > I haven't tried KDE for some time because of bloat... > >>=20 > >> I know someone who's using it after I switched to KDE from Gnome becau= se > >> he needed a couple program starters. So far, he seems to be ok with i= t. > > > > I've had users using PC-BSD years ago, when it was still KDE-based, > > and they were happy with it. >=20 > perhaps that version was less buggy Yes, I think so. And it could be installed, configured, maintained and operated by novice users. > >> I haven't tried KDE in a very long time. I used it for a while and ga= ve > >> up because of too many bugs. > > > > My fear of KDE is bloat. It has its own subsystems, piles of > > libraries, services and so on that are primarily developed for > > Linux. >=20 > Linux is rather bloated nowadays even without things like KDE. You're refering to systemd? Run away, the guys with the pitchforks and torches are coming! ;-) > > Will they always work on FreeBSD as intended? And if your > > PC is already a few years old, will the graphics be smooth enough > > to be usable? >=20 > Do they work as intended anywhere? You can always replace the graphics > card. Not in a laptop. > > Many years ago, someone complained about skipping audio on a > > quite performant PC. I replied that on my 150 MHz Pentium PC > > with 128 MB RAM, I could play MP3 (non-skipping), burn a CD, > > download FreeBSD sources, compile a port, and still have a > > responsive web browser (Opera) in the foreground, so why > > should that be a problem? :-) >=20 > That must have been _many_ years ago ... and 128MB is a gigantic amount > of RAM. How many boards suported that much? It _was_ many years ago, FreeBSD 4.0 was running on that system. Initially there were 4 * 16 MB EDO, later 4 * 32 MB EDO. > >> I've never had any use for these so-called > >> "desktop environments", and I don't understand what the point of those > >> is. > > > > Many users coming from a "Windows" background depend on certain > > things to exist. As long as the desktop provides an equivalent, > > they're happy. >=20 > They could just learn a few things and use something far better. Learning is not an option. Changes are not acceptable. > > Now compare this to users I once had coming from a Solaris background, > > expecting something like CDE. What I did? Configure XFCE (version 3) > > to look and feel like KDE, wether they used a Linux or a BSD > > workstation. They were happy with it, and it was faster than on the > > old Solaris boxes they left behind. :-) >=20 > Nowadays you could use CDE ... Yes, I've seen that it is available now, but who would want to use CDE, except time travelers? :-) > >> They seem to try to force you to do stuff in some more or less > >> weird way someone apparently figured should be the way to do things --- > >> but it isn't, and they're just getting in the way. > > > > [...] > > > > Another example: An accountant complained that her expensive > > software would often cause needless printouts - waste of paper > > that nobody needs. But deleting the printer queue with the GUI > > elements often didn't go fast enough, so the nonsense was still > > printed. I told her to open a terminal in parallel, and after > > the program starts generating the "waste reports", enter "lprm -", > > and repeat the command a few times if needed, until she could > > click on the button to print the actually desired report. She > > wanted to learn more, and now she's able to use "lpq" and "lprm" > > on all the printers in the office. >=20 > That's what I mean, the "desktop environment" tries to force you to do > something in some way and thus only gets in the way. Yes, at least that's my impression with nearly every desktop system I try. There'll always be something that's annoying, incomplete, buggy, or not available at all, and you cannot do anything about it. > Almost all other programs have only one way of benefitting from a GUI: > they reside alongside other programs in their windows on the screen, > making it easy for me to switch between them. If it wasn't for that, I > might use the console more or less always. And I never figured out the > weird UI of mc. I'm a big fan of the Midnight Commander, it's one of my most primary tools. The interface (layout, keys, menues, etc.) is so hardcoded into my mind that everything "just works". For your inspiration: The interface maps a "source target concept" to a TUI. Common operations like copying or moving have a source and a target. Both can be managed independently, and much more convenient than with two file manager windows open, or using the "sorting tree" on the left. The concept of using the edit buffer (!!!) for file manipulation (cutting and copying files using the means intended to cut and copy text or graphics) is, in my opinion, one of the wrongestest things ever invented. :-) > >> At least if you manage to set up your keyboard right, you can still > >> switch to the console until they remove that possibility, too. > > > > Yes, that was also a problem. I configured a german keyboard > > for all users centrally in the X configuration, and additionally > > in the XML file buried deep in the /usr/local tree, for the > > dreaded HAL/DBus combo. Gnome didn't care. It knew better, and > > for all users, keyboard configuration had to be done manually > > by clicking around. O(n) is worse than O(1), and _that_ is what > > we have computers for. :-) >=20 > that is simply unacceptable >=20 > Have you never noticed that you have to get keyboard for the console set > up right before you can switch? No, didn't occur to me. Worked out of the box for decades... > >> Can you even switch when using wayland? And how would you X11-forward > >> something to a wayland session through ssh, should wayland ever work > >> with NVIDIA cards? > > > > You probably can't. My impression is that Wayland is "local only", > > so the networking features of X aren't usable anymore. You can > > probably still use some kind of VNC server / client... >=20 > Being able to forward is a requirement. Not in a single-PC single-user single-program single-window single-task setup which seems to be more and more common. > >> >> There's just nothing better than fvwm ... > >> > > >> > On my laptop I'm using IceWM (with "metal2" style which finally > >> > includes a BSD start button, but at the top, where it belongs to) > >> > again, combined with wbar and a Mac background image for a "good > >> > look". ;-) > >> > > >> > On my home system, I found nothing better than a highly customized > >> > WIndowMaker with xdm. > >>=20 > >> Fvwm manages windows. All the other window managers I've tried force y= ou > >> to manage the windows yourself. > > > > I was quite happy with fvwm, the only problem was that it stopped > > supporting Alt+left click for moving windows (as this is very > > convenient and works almost everywhere). >=20 > It's not useful when you use the trackball with the left hand. I'm > using AltGr instead --- though I don't see why you shoudn't be able to > make a key binding for it if it was removed. >=20 > > So I tried to get the configuration file to support it again, and > > sometimes it worked, then stopped working, >=20 > Did you play with the NumLock key? No. Should I? > > so I gave up and re-discovered IceWM with the "metal2" theme. I don't > > care about the menu on the top left, I don't configure that, because > > for the most important programs, I have wbar at the bottom, and > > everything else is CLI work anyway, so managing terminal windows is > > the biggest task IceWM performs. >=20 > You might like i3. Yet fvwm can do tiling as well, and I'm finding a > floating WM better because the tiling one kinda gets all windows stuck > and makes it really difficult to have them in all kinds of sizes just > how and where you want them. That way, I get the best of both worlds > because I can use tiling when I want to and not when I don't. I'm far too stupid for tiling WMs, in the same way I'm too stupid to use emacs. The essence of this confession is not that those programs are crap, but I just don't understand them well enough to make them part of my workflow. > >> How are IceWM and Windowmaker in that regard? > > > > WindowMaker is excellent, at least after you configured it according > > to your needs. I have a keyboard with a 2x5 section left to the > > alphanumeric section (Sun type 7 german, and IBM 5250 custom). >=20 > Is that the one with 24 function keys? Yes. Both 3270 and 5250 have them, but the 5250s can be attached directly to the computer (PS/2 plug) or with a PS/2->USB converter. The keyboard has two modes, selectable by a jumper inside. In "PC mode", certain keys cause a specific key combination, which often isn't desired, that's why "raw mode" is better: Each key emits a specific code, and it can be programmed to do anything, with tools like xmodmap and xbindkeys (or whatever modern X uses). This is how it looks like: [_][_][_][_][_][_][_][_][_][_][_][_] [_][_][_][_][_][_][_][_][_][_][_][_] - - - [_][_] [_][_][_][_][_][_][_][_][_][_][_][_][_][____] [_][_][_] [_][_][_]= [_] [_][_] [__][_][_][_][_][_][_][_][_][_][_][_][_][ ] [_][_][_] [_][_][_]= [_] [_][_] [___][_][_][_][_][_][_][_][_][_][_][_][_][__] [_] [_][_][_]= [_] [_][_] [__][_][_][_][_][_][_][_][_][_][_][_][______] [_][_][_] [_][_][_]= [ ] [_][_] [___] [___][___________________][___] [___] [_] [____][_]= [_] The only thing I've changes is the "cursor cross" to a "cursor upside-down T" which is more convenient. The key in the middle is now the down key. The original down key has been removed and sealed. As I said, programmable. Fully. > > I use those for window manipulation, like rolling them up, shifting > > them to another virtual desktop (very important!), changing foreground > > and background ("stacking"), or maximizing (hardly done, because > > on a 21" 4:3 CRT, you usually don't fullscreen). >=20 > You're still using a CRT? Isn't it worn out yet? No, it still works as if it was new. It's an EIZO FlexScan F980, 21" 4:3 CRT. > I never thought of using these keys to do something with windows. > They're on the wrong side of the keyboard for that. In my case, it's perfect, and my motoric memory lets my hand move off regular keyboards to the left where I "expect" the key to switch to fullscreen, roll up the window, start a terminal, or lock the system. :-) > > But everything depends on configuration and how you get used to it. >=20 > It also depends on the abilities of the WM. Like the one Gnome forces > upon you has no abilities, and that makes Gnome unusable. I'll never > understand why anyone would put any effort into a window manager that > isn't only totally useless in itself but also makes all the rest of the > "desktop environment" it is supposed to serve just as useless ... Why > didn't they at least make the WM replacable like it used to be? Because Gnome is intended as a "monolithic environment", where a predefined set of tools is to be used, as they're interwoven and interdependent. Removing a part is not possible because it would probably crash the whole thing. Sure, you can change the colors and the icon themes, but you can't change the window manager. Or the login manager. Or anything else of importance. > > The same applies to emacs. ;-) >=20 > I would say that for vi, I just don't get along with it. Actually, vi > has been particularly nasty in FreeBSD because for unknown reasons, > sometimes I can't delete a character. Ctrl-d writes ^D on the screen, > and neither Del, nor Backspace work. It works just fine in emacs ... Those keys seem to need additional configuration added to the C shell's initialisation file, given that this is your login shell (assumption, because it's the default interactive shell on FreeBSD). Maybe you can try those: bindkey ^? delete-char # for console bindkey ^[[3~ delete-char # for xterm The first one probably isn't needed anymore because the system console now speaks xterm (and not cons25l1). --=20 Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Aug 9 11:34:30 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E6FFC64A3 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 11:34:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 464jnc6h7kz4RY2 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 11:34:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.117.171]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue106 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1M1qbm-1htqEh2MNk-002CR0; Fri, 09 Aug 2019 13:34:23 +0200 Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2019 13:34:19 +0200 From: Polytropon To: hw Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: thunderbird in German? Message-Id: <20190809133419.3de9e65f.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <87sgqdq0nw.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <87o91bw4mx.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190731012754.3783a859.freebsd@edvax.de> <878ssc5v3x.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190802053434.6babd0d0.freebsd@edvax.de> <87y30b8h0v.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190803042205.550f5903.freebsd@edvax.de> <87pnllbxp7.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190805070522.be1fb873.freebsd@edvax.de> <87sgqdq0nw.fsf@toy.adminart.net> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:CwiiFSnbs8hCeB76Ti7sDJKnIAbIY3zer8a1yZx3XmXafFL2zWf jdnw/BSqkQrzit9atRB9NhVyFASwpUPci9sffzMy9Nl86wc2R0tP4VvVn9gVDVcsAlU71Tv 5A5BZUKoUBxMOKTsOfXP8zUQrjWPvTRu8VO5m/j37wBSjDGvtlE5vOPV2sjrM2MS9llNSw3 ym2mW+WS3xbHgqJciJx3w== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:VB67t/26toI=:WOMnxg7r61JuHIdesx8Mt6 tWJdQv3Wexi9esU0eIe3nDvAuRilIVbxQdADQ6c8RyQWqjO+qi5Tu32ErgVj1K9u/hIvrUv5C vg3EqmYN4oJL4RbCcAi2HBnWDfVru9W+KR0aE61c2AzGlDnwItZ5ftrzfFol2V12/u5qldEXb WzlAbSmkTeD63jmCN6dDB3C9nw5NJOEoJdf1A+JZ7/QcGUJse/e3JMd6SDHyeleJED+kEctoo fLbH6pozKRTrUi8gbVnLsSLk/UOhuO9Qwq6+T7Mfu6hpAxS9eKL+Gtty/12S8fs6CdJj8c//a HGUwGi8Ld+BY5YJ1YDwAx52OJfIfO2CLl5pkhvkrH5X8GGxDUvn4VRsFm4ZguxFI0Fj2Q711m wsFRe63EOrP9r2dbno+F9HQ6Qy3zDWNZLrtgNXgR1kpmGid2a6o8CwccDT8prHLa2jgpN+Q9N pnHT7ERRsWuPv5D1fSWYV7oWpAe4YmNpO4S9JbHTJjn41LmBH4Z8NdEtfOpzGtvr5vd1+60Ii zUnUMc7RkLMeNRje1phwPN7vQSeCVELw7z2FE0qoNxqg/bChw5nvgoq8m1HmVOpc/Qic3vY8n Fadt0TgiPamcTG29rYKeMJeS1t2VmTRnR7j0Ldm9VMa8QVjMrfeu9ELpvFST+M05YbJS/LNt3 SPtjy5XmPQehdf0cfXmb1vBE2XohXIRsU+yAjNJDBUkK5KO81Xu1H5h18T3e40sKgSLKOsVL9 uNzMy4S16lJrT3UdZo+kELY704cEyicbz/zJVH8Ln875V515VSqfKWUUamo= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 464jnc6h7kz4RY2 X-Spamd-Bar: +++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 217.72.192.74) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [5.21 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.47)[-0.472,0]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[171.117.12.178.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:217.72.192.0/20, country:DE]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.98)[0.983,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.98)[0.979,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[74.192.72.217.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(0.32)[ip: (-0.85), ipnet: 217.72.192.0/20(0.19), asn: 8560(2.27), country: DE(-0.01)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2019 11:34:30 -0000 On Wed, 07 Aug 2019 02:28:19 +0200, hw wrote: > Polytropon writes: >=20 > > On Sun, 04 Aug 2019 02:07:00 +0200, hw wrote: > >> Polytropon writes: > >>=20 > >> > On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 22:10:56 +0200, hw wrote: > >> >> Polytropon writes: > >> >>=20 > >> >> > On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 01:22:42 +0200, hw wrote: > >> >> >> Polytropon writes: > >> >> >>=20 > >> >> [...] > >> > While it has been good practice for decades to use -Wall and its > >> > equivalents, it doesn't seem to be important anymore. Compile time > >> > errors and warnings are irrelevant just as runtime warnings and > >> > errors. > >>=20 > >> My impression is that software is now generally much more stable than = it > >> used to be. I don't know why, perhaps better tools became available. > > > > Yes, program stability has improved, especially for web browsers. > > But it's more than fair to acknowledge that the complexity of a > > web browser is comparable to the complexity of a whole operating > > system. >=20 > Web browsers are evil. A neccessary one, it seems... > >> > You can easily verify this by launching any "modern" Gtk or Qt progr= am > >> > from a terminal, say, Firefox, Gimp, and so on. > >> [...] > > Here are a few: > > > > (gimp:3022): GLib-WARNING **: > > goption.c:2132: ignoring no-arg, > > optional-arg or filename flags (8) on option of type 0 > > > > (gimp:3022): Gimp-Display-CRITICAL **: > > render_image_tile_fault: assertion `tile[4] !=3D NULL' failed > > end from FAM server connection > > end from FAM server connection > > end from FAM server connection > > end from FAM server connection > > end from FAM server connection > > > > (gimp:3022): Gtk-CRITICAL **: > > IA__gtk_icon_info_load_icon: assertion `icon_info !=3D NULL' failed > > end from FAM server connection > > end from FAM server connection > > > > (gimp:3022): Gimp-Display-CRITICAL **: > > render_image_tile_fault: assertion `tile[4] !=3D NULL' failed > > > > (gimp:3022): Gtk-CRITICAL **: > > IA__gtk_icon_info_load_icon: assertion `icon_info !=3D NULL' failed > > > > (gimp:3022): Gimp-Base-WARNING **: > > tile ref count balance: 20 > > > > (process:3532): Gtk-WARNING **: > > Locale not supported by C library. > > Using the fallback 'C' locale. > > > > (gimp:4511): Gtk-CRITICAL **: > > IA__gtk_icon_info_load_icon: assertion `icon_info !=3D NULL' failed > > libpng warning: zero length keyword > > libpng warning: Empty language field in iTXt chunk > > end from FAM server connection > > end from FAM server connection > > > > A few can be explained (the last one probably refers to a damaged > > or nonstandard PNG file), but the others are warnings and "CRITICAL", > > where I think this should have been addressed during testing. Do > > they still do testing today? :-) >=20 > I don't know. Did Gimp crash or something? No, it works as intended, no problems. Just those messages. Maybe I should decorate my programs with such warnings, too? ;-) > >> > Churning out new versions and new features often seems to be > >> > more important that fixing bugs or working against bad decisions. > >> > Doing it right for everyone is impossible, I know, but a certain > >> > amount of "good old common sense" should be applied more. :-) > >>=20 > >> These kids don't have that. How could they? > > > > Need more download brain apps from smartphone. :-) >=20 > That won't help ... >=20 > In some way, it's hard to blame them because they never learned how much > can be done with 64kB of RAM and how "fast" computers can be. I was > gona say you can't really blame them for the total failure of the > educational system, but when they can protest against climate change, I > have to say they should long ago have protested much more against the > poor education they're getting. I suppose they have been told one thing > and not the other, so they try to go the easier way ... You need to "exceed" the education you receive to _recognize_ that it is poor. If the education works on you, you will be sure you got the best education available. :-) > I don't want all the windows to look the same, that's ugly and boring, > and some need to be handled differently than others for things to be > usable. Yes, because even though programs have common ways for inter- action (the known GUI elements), they serve different purposes and therefore it's _significant_ to provide an interaction that matches the task you want to perform with the program. Example (seen a few days ago): An accounting program, data entry: You need to click on every input field in order to enter the data with the beyboard. Some fields have a button where you can open a "calculator-like" screen keyboard for numbers. But for letters, there's none. You cannot use TAB or cursor keys or ENTER to advance fields. Can you imagine how annoying it must be to enter pages and pages of information to that stupid program? Oh - and you cannot feed external data... > > A program's job is _not_ to do what the window manager does. A program > > can request to be handled in a different way, for exaple, without > > a window decoration (like XMMS MP3 player where it doesn't make sense, > > or little utilities in the "system corner" like xconsole, xbiff, > > xclock, xload, xcpufreq, etc.). But programs sometimes used their > > own ugly white _mouse cursor_ for no reason! Using a specific > > mouse cursor is normal for tools like Gimp, xfig, even LibreOffice. > > But generic programs? Why? >=20 > Like emacs using a particular pointer to indicate that it is busy when > configured to do so can make sense. If it couldn't do that, it would > need to somehow tell the WM that it's busy and the WM would have to > change the pointer on some or all windows --- and if it would be done > like that rather than emacs changing the pointer, people would say the > WM and emacs are bloated. Or are they, or is X11 bloated for allowing > to change pointers? If the cursor changes for a good reason, it's acceptable, but what about a program changing my normal black mouse cursot to an ugly white one? It's a PDF viewer, nothing more! It doesn't switch to any other cursor shape (like Gimp: cross cursor for selection, paint can cursor, brush cursor and so on). > >> >> But when you use the trackball with your left hand, [...] > >> > > >> > That's entirely wrong. You don't use a trackball because it > >> > does not exist. Everyone uses a mouse (old people) or taps on > >> > the screen (young people). ;-) > >>=20 > >> Dunno, I've already been way ahead of those tiny tap-screens 35 years > >> ago when I used an old black-and-white TV as a display for my computer. > >> I could see everything on it, and I could even program the computer > >> which made it rather useful, and, imagine that, without being spied up= on > >> and without being controlled by anyone else. So I don't understand how > >> anyone can put up with the useless crap you have to tap on while you > >> can't see anything and achieve nothing. > > > > That's totally intended. :-) >=20 > That doesn't mean people have to put with it. People have learned to accept it. > >> >> [...] you suddenly notice > >> >> how wrong all the GUIs are designed. The old X programs can have t= he > >> >> scroll bar on the left no problem, but all the new stuff is so great > >> >> because it's immature and you have to click the like buttons noneth= eless > >> >> (even if you can't reach them because they're at odd locations). > >> > > >> > This is called "to explore". ;-) > >>=20 > >> Hallowed are the like buttons! Who presses the greatest number of them > >> will be rewarded with the most friends of them all! > > > > I prefer the dislike buttons, I'd be tempted to click on _those_ > > rather than the Facebook spy machine's ones. :-) >=20 > The problem is always that there are no such buttons. Think of > elections, too ... Elections miss a "none of those", which is problematic especially in Germany where shit is offered in different tastes; interestingly, if I remember correctly, India (!) has a "none of those" option... > >> >> >> >> Is this a general problem > >> >> >> >> with the language pack or something specific to FreeBSD? > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > Not FreeBSD-specific. It's one of the typical problems of > >> >> >> > "constant change" when dealing with Mozilla software... :-/ > >> >> >>=20 > >> >> >> Is there a usable alternative to Thunderbird for an IMAP client? > >> >> > > >> >> > Yes, Sylpheed is a lightweight and still very convenient and > >> >> > usable MUA. It supports IMAP (as well as SMTP and POP3, which > >> >> > is so obvious that I don't need to mention it). > >> >>=20 > >> >> Hm. I'll try that out, thanks. If that is in German, the users can > >> >> decide what causes them more confusion: the same program they're us= ed to > >> >> in English but German or a new program they've never used, but in G= erman. > >> > > >> > Sylpheed is in any language you want (English and German verified), > >> > depending on what $LC_* says. > >>=20 > >> I tried it yesterday, and it has come a long way. I think the last ti= me > >> I tried it, it was called slightly different with claws, and it crashed > >> all the time. > > > > Yes, I had the same problem on FreeBSD/AMD64. I'm not using the > > Claws version ("Claws mail" today? I don't know due to the many > > name chances...) and I'm more than happy with it. It does what > > I want, and even better (!): It does _not_ do what I _don't_ want > > it to do, like rendering HTML, automatically open attachments, > > or other nonsense. It also integrates well with my mailing setup, > > a nonstandard configuration that "modern" MUAs probably cannot > > even be configured to attach to, because there's "only one way" > > to access mail. >=20 > right >=20 > If I only could make Sylpheed remember which program to use to open > which kind of attachment with ... I haven't found a way to do that conveniently. Or at least _one_ program to open anything with a doubleclick. I think there is some OpenDesktop opener - xdgopen - which can be called for any file type and will then perform the required action. > >> But I haven't figured out how to make it so that libreoffice instead of > >> gedit is the default program to open spreadsheets attached to > >> emails. > > > > Right-click on attachment, select "Open with", enter the command > > needed for this file type, and it will be saved. >=20 > It saves only the command and not when to use it. That is way too > complicated for the users because they need not only to remember to pick > it but also which one. I have learned to live with it, but I find it annoying, too. > And it's _very_ annoying. There are a lot of spreadsheets being sent as > emails as part of some workflows. It sucks that I have to use yet > another menu, pick from there what I want to do, pick from another menu > in yet another window that appears somewhere else on the screen > (MinOverlapPlacement) what program to use to open the attachment after > remembering what I wanted when I started, to finally be able to work > with the spreadsheed eventually. Why can't there be a button at the > attachment I can click on to open the attachment with the program I > once, and only once, picked for it? This is the concept of the common file associations in file managers. Sylpheed could pick that idea up. > Why do I even have to "open" the attachment rather than Sylpheed > displaying it inline like it does with images? Libreoffice is open > source ... Because that's problematic. Inline image viewer - yes, not that complicated. PDF renderer? More complicated. HTML renderer, with CSS and JS? Very complicated, better embed a browser session. Office documents? With macros? Oh, _very_ dangerous. MP3 files? A player would have to be mebedded. There are just too many possibilities and no one size fits all eierlegende Wollmilchsau mit Goldf=FC=DFen und Glockenspiel. :-) > > For example, I have two different commands for PDF attachments - > > simply because I sometimes need program A, sometimes program B, > > depending on the PDF file. >=20 > Users don't have that. Exactly. That's why Thunderbird does a better job in this case. It "just works". Have a PDF attachment - doubleclick - system's PDF viewer opens it. > Even if everyone had lots of programs to open PDFs and spreadsheets, > Sylpheed should nonetheless be able to remember them all and have a > button to straightforwardly use the one picked for the purpose to open > an attachment. It is rather unlikely that I would want to use all or > even several of them to open that attachment and more likely that I do > want to use the program I want to use for it, so what the heck. So there's sufficient space for improvement. :-) --=20 Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Aug 9 11:57:59 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48358C6F34 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 11:57:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mary.johnson02@weboptimizes.com) Received: from mail-ot1-x343.google.com (mail-ot1-x343.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::343]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 464kJk1kptz4T98 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 11:57:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mary.johnson02@weboptimizes.com) Received: by mail-ot1-x343.google.com with SMTP id x21so38258718otq.12 for ; Fri, 09 Aug 2019 04:57:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=weboptimizes.com; s=google; h=mime-version:sender:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=bawhXf1ZX/qfv6D+X86odsLOJMLd8CFIXo5L6k4DqPQ=; b=ea3tVqkJuH8owQ+7Xqmqvtwopm4V9vnyuRHyxMFiolKiYl+21aCDEV/1lxaV+6aZz9 ZxjuNK6cTrE6KKq/BHBaDAlXF12/jafqBhWXnaTLn6zZpSZLGbqiwHXD68gEiTaxC2jz 5daTofTELHlHWxIDyUwxC56bu+/QRiDywXQ1w= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:from:date:message-id:subject :to; bh=bawhXf1ZX/qfv6D+X86odsLOJMLd8CFIXo5L6k4DqPQ=; b=NkIBGoP/GNe58AfuRiELDnEHPRscp2yEvOQ0PKFyGolo+bqaQlpQx7BH89mc4Sgsb/ Th9G0MjAKckVsUiTWWfc2mqm6bz8R9iucIYxPNNrx9gmk/Rpd2DtraF4OpZfXFvXEsi/ rfhGuz3kwg+2ppD7dP14ZSsUiEEhIx1xYCME4GNcqLZn5vE4aQciL63btMF6AFb8gqAW oAwwE1lQdze7JFvZd1Vb8hjsZRf9BSsQ106GrL7Zqr/3cPRf/9LW7FYHlYKJRXubjvAT nmpiS0wckbJCZ65mVYhhoXD3E4Beu7nl5Yyn/DOPmEh0L4SdmUdmsARO8f8fdruhACWb wsiQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU9vg6aFF02DgjnPik+3xsKgqPWjxYRgizEwG8101xxqiJTcB4K Y7u+V39LC9rklIQpp+9ebBk9mWDYKyxhL1GaIrK85YFhsAM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwQRK9Su3rziolKW4MlerwCEUvVrNJIuBOg7afj6/PtqdeHPe4csgLOTESpDIYo5+4z4j0tjKssxVaPdgNMl8Y= X-Received: by 2002:a02:c00c:: with SMTP id y12mr11880855jai.65.1565351477880; Fri, 09 Aug 2019 04:51:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 52669349336 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 07:51:16 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: Mary Johnson From: Mary Johnson Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2019 07:51:16 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: FN5Qs6hvoKfkRNPCpUqTEst7TTE Message-ID: Subject: About freebsd.org To: Freebsd-Questions X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 464kJk1kptz4T98 X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none (invalid DKIM record) header.d=weboptimizes.com header.s=google header.b=ea3tVqkJ; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=weboptimizes.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mary.johnson02@weboptimizes.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::343 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mary.johnson02@weboptimizes.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.61 / 15.00]; RSPAMD_URIBL(4.50)[weboptimizes-dot-yamm-track.appspot.com]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.16)[-0.163,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.26)[-0.259,0]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[9]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[weboptimizes.com:~]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(0.00)[weboptimizes.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[3.4.3.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.94)[-0.935,0]; R_DKIM_PERMFAIL(0.00)[weboptimizes.com:s=google]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; IP_SCORE(-0.53)[ip: (2.80), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-3.00), asn: 15169(-2.41), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2019 11:57:59 -0000 *Hi **freebsd.org **Team,* Hope this email finds you well. 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I look forward to hearing from you. *Best Regards,* *Mary Johnson* *SEO-Consultant* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------= -----------------------------------------------------* If you want to unsubscribe please go to https://yet-another-mail-merge.com/unsubscribe [image: beacon] From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Aug 9 14:26:07 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A37FCA579 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 14:26:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lee@adminart.net) Received: from mo6-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de (mo6-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de [IPv6:2a01:238:20a:202:5300::5]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "*.smtp.rzone.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 464nbd2zjQz4d8p for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 14:26:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lee@adminart.net) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1565360762; s=strato-dkim-0002; d=adminart.net; h=References:Message-ID:Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From: X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH:From:Subject:Sender; bh=OTPi0qsA6qRSoXhc3gHCMeHhVtO/0kIG5VAMynOQi3c=; b=QofZ0+C3h8RECiLi1lXDPWdH/rV0ZkxdrXI12XmekOvAtMmDh50NINlckTR8nsQSof u/etWTLw9dAjnoBzcuGbkjro3m6LCb87ujuYBd86t0YLnHwtAzA7eR7wJPjUEeltY3dt nRmw5iQMYVodUFguCBsng/Bms3Nmrvd7DhdYwVeJIA2cV/YQ0Miink5ZnNtCoCjvgb5I umU5nE34pc7ma/hhudl6ltSjSvz/yPaPeNLbMaHSYtXha3ObKd9ngzLiXgMjCzSTahK5 x35amerNFP8b9xp2d2IZQDh0VtAjuTTDeNL59losrE/kqEbW/ZHihusxhF/y/3QYR3G9 gkzg== X-RZG-AUTH: ":O2kGeEG7b/pS1FS4THaxjVF9w0vVgfQ9xGcjwO5WMRo5c+h5ceMqQWZ3yrBp+ARdaXvxIDf7nlw=" X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Received: from himinbjorg.adminart.net by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 44.24 DYNA|AUTH) with ESMTPSA id e0059dv79EQ2w7h (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (curve secp521r1 with 521 ECDH bits, eq. 15360 bits RSA)) (Client did not present a certificate); Fri, 9 Aug 2019 16:26:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from toy.adminart.net ([192.168.3.55]) by himinbjorg.adminart.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hw5qD-0001UQ-Jv; Fri, 09 Aug 2019 16:26:01 +0200 Received: from lee by toy.adminart.net with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hw5qD-00008V-I5; Fri, 09 Aug 2019 16:26:01 +0200 From: hw To: Erich Dollansky Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is NFS still broken in FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <20190809084409.0dc3c669.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> (Erich Dollansky's message of "Fri, 9 Aug 2019 08:44:09 +0800") Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2019 16:10:39 +0200 Organization: my virtual residence Message-ID: <87k1bmxwdc.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <87v9v7nru4.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190809084409.0dc3c669.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 464nbd2zjQz4d8p X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=adminart.net header.s=strato-dkim-0002 header.b=QofZ0+C3; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of lee@adminart.net has no SPF policy when checking 2a01:238:20a:202:5300::5) smtp.mailfrom=lee@adminart.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.85 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[adminart.net:s=strato-dkim-0002]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[adminart.net]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[adminart.net:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.982,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[hw@adminart.net,lee@adminart.net]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[5.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.3.5.2.0.2.0.a.0.2.0.8.3.2.0.1.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6724, ipnet:2a01:238::/32, country:DE]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[hw@adminart.net,lee@adminart.net]; IP_SCORE(-0.77)[ipnet: 2a01:238::/32(-3.40), asn: 6724(-0.46), country: DE(-0.01)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2019 14:26:07 -0000 Erich Dollansky writes: > Hi, > > On Fri, 09 Aug 2019 01:46:27 +0200 > hw wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> according to [1], NFS in FreeBSD is broken, and I'm wondering if it >> still is. >> >> I need to export some directories rw and some ro with an /etc/exports >> like this: >> >> >> /b/tftpboot/FreeBSD/install -ro -maproot=root >> /p/default >> >> >> The "default" directory needs to be exported read-write. That seems >> to be impossible with FreeBSD --- if that is really so, NFS is totally >> broken in FreeBSD. To make it more strange, it worked as intended >> until I restarted the server. NFS v4 doesn't seem to work at all. >> >> This has cost me a whole day now :( >> >> >> [1]: https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/nfs-exports.35966/ > > I alkso learned recently that trusting FreeBSD's handbooks is wrong, > but it looks to me that in you case, it would have helped. I looked at the handbook and the manpage all the time, and neither does help. Look at the man exports, for example: Each line in the file (other than comment lines that begin with a #) specifies the mount point(s) and export flags within one local server file system or the NFSv4 tree root for one or more hosts. A long line may be split over several lines by ending all but the last line with a backslash (`\'). A host may be specified only once for each local file or the NFSv4 tree root on the server and there may be only one default entry for each server file system that applies to all other hosts. The latter exports the file system to the "world" and should be used only when the file system contains public information. Can you write this more poorly, please? And what the hell is it supposed to mean? Since when is NFS used to export single files? Why are hosts somehow being involved? I thought I'd be exporting to clients. Or what do they mean? Then later it says: Mount points for a file system may appear on multiple lines each with different sets of hosts and export options. Besides that this might contradict what has been said before, it is definitely wrong. If you think it's not you need to show how you can export, for example, /directory-a read-only and then /directory-b read-write. On top of that, noone expects NFS to only be able to export whole file systems. I have used NFS 25 years ago and even then it has been able to export what you export and not just whole file systems with only a single set of options. Nobody expects NFS to be unable to export something with only the same access permissions for all clients. It makes NFS useless. Access permissions are usually set _per client_ and _per directory (tree)_ that is being exported. The handbook doesn't make this any more clear than the bad man page. Now please show me how you make an NFS export from FreeBSD which you can mount on Centos 7 using NFS version 4, which is the default for Centos 7. Version 3 still works, but for how long? It comes down to that in FreeBSD, NFS is implemented in some anachronistic[1] and ideosynchratic way, and bad man pages and the handbook don't help that no matter how long you look at them. Either of them could be entirely clear about it. But NFS needs a major overhaul in FreeBSD anyway. [1]: Like the times when hard disks were so small that each node like /usr, /home, /var, /etc ... had to be placed on its own file system are long gone. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Aug 9 14:26:07 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AA0FCA57B for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 14:26:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lee@adminart.net) Received: from mo6-p01-ob.smtp.rzone.de (mo6-p01-ob.smtp.rzone.de [IPv6:2a01:238:20a:202:5301::5]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "*.smtp.rzone.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 464nbd4YsFz4d8r for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 14:26:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lee@adminart.net) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1565360762; s=strato-dkim-0002; d=adminart.net; h=References:Message-ID:Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From: X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH:From:Subject:Sender; bh=PZBYFb6rn65XRI9PHeQ1DBUzwc3R0JVXEfg/9nRDAuk=; b=ricpb3s+d2ukXfkM/KuLmW2QFnkKNCv0jc/NrSUxv+wZM2XWCTc93mgsHJ/niifNp3 QLVjKitze+VjH+UPoyFykVmsKKW1U7j+FsO/T+g5/LvJgn3vp5e6YYhxdMCL/dVoK0Ns clxzcdbz/yjT0nEOIF5foAVUVshTIzTDh/KmW7wswe5EGkX1H0qHvVQndcNCmSPGqh/D NTV94sCkrmAglDFn4LXNFepCPKnXgh+tUVRjupUff+8rIvuLQ4D1gwzAJAbvC8I30ccA 99OSjaaQsDGFFmFhaR9Rw6VIUXpocSrCOu0eC9pT7jYml/2ZMpsDOziZM52gA9xkGKo9 L9Jg== X-RZG-AUTH: ":O2kGeEG7b/pS1FS4THaxjVF9w0vVgfQ9xGcjwO5WMRo5c+h5ceMqQWZ3yrBp+ARdaXvxIDf7nlw=" X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Received: from himinbjorg.adminart.net by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 44.24 DYNA|AUTH) with ESMTPSA id e0059dv79EQ2w7i (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (curve secp521r1 with 521 ECDH bits, eq. 15360 bits RSA)) (Client did not present a certificate); Fri, 9 Aug 2019 16:26:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from toy.adminart.net ([192.168.3.55]) by himinbjorg.adminart.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hw5qD-0001UU-NQ; Fri, 09 Aug 2019 16:26:01 +0200 Received: from lee by toy.adminart.net with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hw5qD-00008a-Le; Fri, 09 Aug 2019 16:26:01 +0200 From: hw To: Julien Cigar Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is NFS still broken in FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <20190809092141.GA67645@home.lan> (Julien Cigar's message of "Fri, 9 Aug 2019 11:21:42 +0200") Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2019 16:25:05 +0200 Organization: my virtual residence Message-ID: <87ftmaxvpa.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <87v9v7nru4.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190809092141.GA67645@home.lan> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 464nbd4YsFz4d8r X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=adminart.net header.s=strato-dkim-0002 header.b=ricpb3s+; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of lee@adminart.net has no SPF policy when checking 2a01:238:20a:202:5301::5) smtp.mailfrom=lee@adminart.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.85 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[adminart.net:s=strato-dkim-0002]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[adminart.net]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[adminart.net:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.983,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[hw@adminart.net,lee@adminart.net]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[5.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.1.0.3.5.2.0.2.0.a.0.2.0.8.3.2.0.1.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6724, ipnet:2a01:238::/32, country:DE]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[hw@adminart.net,lee@adminart.net]; IP_SCORE(-0.77)[ipnet: 2a01:238::/32(-3.40), asn: 6724(-0.46), country: DE(-0.01)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2019 14:26:07 -0000 Julien Cigar writes: > On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 01:46:27AM +0200, hw wrote: >> Hi, >> > > Hello, > >> according to [1], NFS in FreeBSD is broken, and I'm wondering if it >> still is. >> > > define "broken"? see my other post about that > NFS is used in production here for years and works like > a charm. The only annoying issue was PR 205193 (as we use jails > extensively), but it has now been fixed. > >> I need to export some directories rw and some ro with an /etc/exports >> like this: >> >> >> /b/tftpboot/FreeBSD/install -ro -maproot=root >> /p/default >> > > this is not a valid /etc/exports file, check man 5 exports That man page is just bad. Please explain what is not valid about it. For all I can tell, it's perfectly valid for NFS v3. You can also find this in the FreeBSD handbook in section 31.8.1.. >> The "default" directory needs to be exported read-write. That seems to >> be impossible with FreeBSD --- if that is really so, NFS is totally >> broken in FreeBSD. To make it more strange, it worked as intended until >> I restarted the server. NFS v4 doesn't seem to work at all. >> > > use something like: > > V4: /someroot -sec=sys > /someroot/default -rw -network somehost -mask somenetmask -rw is nowhere mentioned in the man page. It says: The -ro option specifies that the file system should be exported read- only (default read/write). At first I was assuming that I should use -rw, but since that doesn't exist and there were error messages in /var/log/messages, I removed it. Omitting -rw, the error messages persisted, and even adding -ro to the second entry, they persist. >> This has cost me a whole day now :( > > also, for a NFS V4 only server/client you could set: > > vfs.nfsd.server_min_nfsvers=4 > vfs.nfsd.server_max_nfsvers=4 Both Centos 7 and Fedora support 4.2, so limiting to 4 doesn't make much sense when they may get involved. I have also verified that it is not possible to mount a v4 export from FreeBSD as v4 on Centos 7: It doesn't mount when you explicitly specify the version, or it mounts as v3 when you don't. >> [1]: https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/nfs-exports.35966/ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Aug 9 14:26:07 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A7ABCA57A for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 14:26:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lee@adminart.net) Received: from mo6-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de (mo6-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de [IPv6:2a01:238:20a:202:5300::6]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "*.smtp.rzone.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 464nbd39b6z4d8q for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 14:26:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lee@adminart.net) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1565360762; s=strato-dkim-0002; d=adminart.net; h=References:Message-ID:Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From: X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH:From:Subject:Sender; bh=P7XARH1anSq1jUClL3g3o/ZAJKg7j9C1+/u11Bh36gs=; b=GmtSBltZ3omjJ6IK39toVcC39vHUrXlnpTqhyABpckFf8vuddcTmtfx2leP3WzKYjU u3y534kaedwmr3gwKYhAv6XpW0S2xQodoYb4eH53R0l1iHBfx3AVUvHatFz++tnxSil9 oDuOdfvbmmVueaVbHjS8YNAMuvLLnGTmysFTYd9aJIF2S9CIGcUjOJ2KlG1pskwpYCMR I6AtlJMrKd6cGygojl9RJHqORtJ8mbeq8kywE1aH3qdXQeZoG7Qfa3w0QxihEfnqbjgo SoGjHpe9nN0VX3s12y00LjfQK+7igSRENyoQRwlHenPY7OH3B3ta1n96Gh6JvwJ/+cPt oJPw== X-RZG-AUTH: ":O2kGeEG7b/pS1FS4THaxjVF9w0vVgfQ9xGcjwO5WMRo5c+h5ceMqQWZ3yrBp+ARdaXvxIDf7nlw=" X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Received: from himinbjorg.adminart.net by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 44.24 DYNA|AUTH) with ESMTPSA id e0059dv79EQ2w7e (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (curve secp521r1 with 521 ECDH bits, eq. 15360 bits RSA)) (Client did not present a certificate); Fri, 9 Aug 2019 16:26:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from toy.adminart.net ([192.168.3.55]) by himinbjorg.adminart.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hw5qD-0001UE-DS; Fri, 09 Aug 2019 16:26:01 +0200 Received: from lee by toy.adminart.net with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hw5qD-00008G-1V; Fri, 09 Aug 2019 16:26:01 +0200 From: hw To: MJ Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: how to install into a directory In-Reply-To: (MJ's message of "Wed, 7 Aug 2019 14:15:58 +1000") Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2019 15:03:05 +0200 Organization: my virtual residence Message-ID: <87wofmxzhy.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <871ry05xea.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <18a2c14c-0767-534a-dc48-dbd167180e1b@gmail.com> <87lfw5pzx7.fsf@toy.adminart.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 464nbd39b6z4d8q X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=adminart.net header.s=strato-dkim-0002 header.b=GmtSBltZ; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of lee@adminart.net has no SPF policy when checking 2a01:238:20a:202:5300::6) smtp.mailfrom=lee@adminart.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.87 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[adminart.net:s=strato-dkim-0002]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[adminart.net]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[adminart.net:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.992,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[hw@adminart.net,lee@adminart.net]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[6.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.3.5.2.0.2.0.a.0.2.0.8.3.2.0.1.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6724, ipnet:2a01:238::/32, country:DE]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[hw@adminart.net,lee@adminart.net]; IP_SCORE(-0.78)[ipnet: 2a01:238::/32(-3.41), asn: 6724(-0.46), country: DE(-0.01)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2019 14:26:07 -0000 MJ writes: > You have read the handbook? > https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/x-xdm.html > > Specifically: > > 5.6.2.=C2=A0Configuring Remote Access > > ?? > > That's if I understand your musings correctly? There is no remote access involved. I am PXE booting diskless clients so that users can use xfreerdp to create sessions on and work on an xrdp server. That means when a client boots, it needs to automatically start a local X session in order to run xfreerdp. The idea was to use XDM on the client so a user can log in. Once the user has logged in, XDM needs to start xfreerdp (which creates the problem that the user would have to log in to the server again). I haven't been able to figure out how to make XDM start xfreerdp at all. So I have them log in at the console with their shell set to startx instead. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Aug 9 14:26:07 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 230ACCA57E for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 14:26:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lee@adminart.net) Received: from mo6-p01-ob.smtp.rzone.de (mo6-p01-ob.smtp.rzone.de [IPv6:2a01:238:20a:202:5301::11]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "*.smtp.rzone.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 464nbf0qsjz4d8s for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 14:26:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lee@adminart.net) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1565360764; s=strato-dkim-0002; d=adminart.net; h=References:Message-ID:Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From: X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH:From:Subject:Sender; bh=QKs0489oBsG+nHKHpYQGJX7suyvtzotivu0JhxtZs0M=; b=TJJvPMwv507XmY4pUehH9OFwlTT3y8JpNQ3g6m2+YuD3nQued82Fpg1Alz4Aci2IWi a628n2xJEp7B/omCN963DCwFWU/QdyiiXj+9AMeJSCgYOeMlV6eGmhXRag34KTTDJduE JZ310qb9tHfyPSKeXc0+4r8F5gLGhRlson9SNDSoXRBm0xQBEHkf2/75sAeYAzq37Aun hR41LWV/J7Ya3LlMwPZKybukhtdmImgTkXccmDE5GgXRAsYI5PDuFju/a3xoXTF32mxa PkphXFYs/iLjAI2NHuBi2IXQKKDQDOvMbwkPXd9bmGjs96a515t/qAvp92O3suJ4LeC+ g+6A== X-RZG-AUTH: ":O2kGeEG7b/pS1FS4THaxjVF9w0vVgfQ9xGcjwO5WMRo5c+h5ceMqQWZ3yrBp+ARdaXvxIDf7nlw=" X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Received: from himinbjorg.adminart.net by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 44.24 DYNA|AUTH) with ESMTPSA id e0059dv79EQ2w7f (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (curve secp521r1 with 521 ECDH bits, eq. 15360 bits RSA)) (Client did not present a certificate); Fri, 9 Aug 2019 16:26:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from toy.adminart.net ([192.168.3.55]) by himinbjorg.adminart.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hw5qD-0001UG-EP; Fri, 09 Aug 2019 16:26:01 +0200 Received: from lee by toy.adminart.net with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hw5qD-00008L-CT; Fri, 09 Aug 2019 16:26:01 +0200 From: hw To: Polytropon Cc: Erich Dollansky , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, hw Subject: Re: howto allow anyone to poweroff? In-Reply-To: <20190808085222.77febec0.freebsd@edvax.de> (Polytropon's message of "Thu, 8 Aug 2019 08:52:22 +0200") Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2019 15:24:33 +0200 Organization: my virtual residence Message-ID: <87sgqaxyi6.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <20190807183735.f4a87306c851426be6b799ca@gc-24.de> <20190808094618.787a7422.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <20190808085222.77febec0.freebsd@edvax.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 464nbf0qsjz4d8s X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=adminart.net header.s=strato-dkim-0002 header.b=TJJvPMwv; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of lee@adminart.net has no SPF policy when checking 2a01:238:20a:202:5301::11) smtp.mailfrom=lee@adminart.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.82 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[adminart.net:s=strato-dkim-0002]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[adminart.net]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[adminart.net:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.95)[-0.948,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[hw@adminart.net,lee@adminart.net]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[1.1.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.1.0.3.5.2.0.2.0.a.0.2.0.8.3.2.0.1.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6724, ipnet:2a01:238::/32, country:DE]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[hw@adminart.net,lee@adminart.net]; IP_SCORE(-0.77)[ipnet: 2a01:238::/32(-3.40), asn: 6724(-0.46), country: DE(-0.01)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2019 14:26:07 -0000 Polytropon writes: > On Thu, 8 Aug 2019 09:46:18 +0800, Erich Dollansky wrote: >> Hi, >> >> On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 18:37:35 +0200 >> hw wrote: >> >> > Hi, >> > >> > is there a way to allow ordinary users to poweroff a machine? I'd >> > like to automatically poweroff PXE booted clients once the user that >> > was logged in logs out after using it. >> >> an unconventional way would be to have a cron job checking if someone >> is locked in an power off the machine if none is logged in. You do not >> have problems with the access rights but might run into the problem >> that the machine shutsdown when somebody just has arrived at the >> machine. >> >> You also can catch the logout event and shut the machine down then. It >> is the problem with the access right again. > > TO extend this idea, you could parse the output of programs > like "w" to check for reamining interactive users. If the > last one has logged out in a cron-controlled specific time > window, the system could perform a shutdown. Hoewever, the > problem described above will remain. :-) Hm. The diskless clients are very unlikely to ever have more than a single user, and a lost user who isn't using the machine shouldn't prevent it from shutting down after all users using it have logged out. Shutting down the machine right away when the user has logged out is probably not a good idea because someone else (not so likely) or the same user (more likely) might want to log in again right away. Or it may be a great idea because chances are that the user wanted to relog because of some issue they are hoping to fix by relogging, in which case it can be best to shutdown before allowing them to log in again. However, they could decide that for themselves if the waiting time before the shutdown is short (or press Ctrl+Alt+Del). So how do I make it so that after maybe 3 minutes the user which has used an X session has logged out, the machine shuts down? The shell of the user is set to startx, and I don't want to poll like every 3 minutes if xfreerdp is still running ... There is also the question how to shut down the machine after it has not been used for a while, like an hour or so, while the user is still logged in. In any case, when a user logs out, there is no way to shut down the machine other than holding the power button or pulling the plug, and that sucks. So far, I have only a startup script that initiates a shutdown after 500 minutes and am thinking to change it to a fixed time of day. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Aug 9 14:26:07 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A0A7CA578 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 14:26:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lee@adminart.net) Received: from mo6-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de (mo6-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de [IPv6:2a01:238:20a:202:5300::1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "*.smtp.rzone.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 464nbd2XRNz4d8n for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 14:26:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lee@adminart.net) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1565360762; s=strato-dkim-0002; d=adminart.net; h=References:Message-ID:Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From: X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH:From:Subject:Sender; bh=9AqNxtKWsv3xJkOU/fKMQGojGWePYQnW8aVRIFP+Lwk=; b=kz0kH85+BvvtkikenPjY6QQoD9ttdznrJfLOE5ikeUAabb4/j9WyoPRWhBgxgEjmmu ApAbb12/dgNeIcCMBv6rhJVrHpv8PjWsbAcFwj0BVSrQUnPeE7w/sBXfPb2qL5KxCg+r VTmt/81Sm7FNU8ll8Uk1QfaV7kbr8rxMyt5sbql7q+DlDkok4GxcOd8B5tRRFenaCFch 8sg+2hD1xy9SsgGtQ0TRjxoNCOBsVKtnMksxmn/i4Z+/UQE6dBDojB7veDRRNHWRADoq vuurI9GtfmwkrACsn1XfZRzAvXKc/wAF4eo34eD7Y1FO5zp2uLy+ZcGaudO3TEX6xuUZ hTuA== X-RZG-AUTH: ":O2kGeEG7b/pS1FS4THaxjVF9w0vVgfQ9xGcjwO5WMRo5c+h5ceMqQWZ3yrBp+ARdaXvxIDf7nlw=" X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Received: from himinbjorg.adminart.net by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 44.24 DYNA|AUTH) with ESMTPSA id e0059dv79EQ2w7g (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (curve secp521r1 with 521 ECDH bits, eq. 15360 bits RSA)) (Client did not present a certificate); Fri, 9 Aug 2019 16:26:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from toy.adminart.net ([192.168.3.55]) by himinbjorg.adminart.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hw5qD-0001UM-Gf; Fri, 09 Aug 2019 16:26:01 +0200 Received: from lee by toy.adminart.net with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hw5qD-00008Q-Ep; Fri, 09 Aug 2019 16:26:01 +0200 From: hw To: Graham Perrin Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kill -9 does nothing In-Reply-To: (Graham Perrin's message of "Thu, 8 Aug 2019 19:53:46 +0100") Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2019 15:29:54 +0200 Organization: my virtual residence Message-ID: <87o90yxy99.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <20190808180557.abbdd74fcdb74806aed1fd98@gc-24.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 464nbd2XRNz4d8n X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=adminart.net header.s=strato-dkim-0002 header.b=kz0kH85+; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of lee@adminart.net has no SPF policy when checking 2a01:238:20a:202:5300::1) smtp.mailfrom=lee@adminart.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.85 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[adminart.net:s=strato-dkim-0002]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[adminart.net]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[adminart.net:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.976,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[hw@adminart.net,lee@adminart.net]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[1.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.3.5.2.0.2.0.a.0.2.0.8.3.2.0.1.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6724, ipnet:2a01:238::/32, country:DE]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[hw@adminart.net,lee@adminart.net]; IP_SCORE(-0.78)[ipnet: 2a01:238::/32(-3.41), asn: 6724(-0.46), country: DE(-0.01)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2019 14:26:07 -0000 Graham Perrin writes: > On 08/08/2019 17:05, hw wrote: >> =E2=80=A6 Firefox has a tendency to become unresponsive. =E2=80=A6 > Which version of the OS? 12 release It turned out that Firefox was stuck in some kind of NFS deadlock. I even had to destroy the VM because it won't shutdown anymore. NFS is bad with FreeBSD. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Aug 9 14:41:14 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED2B0CAC9A for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 14:41:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lenzi.sergio@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qk1-x72a.google.com (mail-qk1-x72a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 464nx60P3Wz4f1W for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 14:41:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lenzi.sergio@gmail.com) Received: by mail-qk1-x72a.google.com with SMTP id r6so71851751qkc.0 for ; Fri, 09 Aug 2019 07:41:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=message-id:subject:from:reply-to:to:cc:date:in-reply-to:references :organization:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=0+87LHO0UR3yswg3/Es+X+hkpRxuThHhqsv+cI6BYuE=; b=SAG/2tydc7dDra01Mnod2sgBBDrOW/7YHRYYHinRLsqCiTJ81GjHd4Y4S1dVwE4Juh nWCPYZDhlT7sKxA6gETC+AtrbwI4HR2mk/y7QLd63wyUA5sIWIsbNlnixCeNp0379UaY kOW4xav0/99+75AoTUJrx09gXYFk2ZiDGnmtrXj5EgGMsjQrlkeZVAmBJvuE4/Mx6BLU gkg4OIWpLgz2D1rwZ5WfvA6fA+0JWfY3zKpj/9TUbmritnVQ5F4Id26221WpLNRRapw1 9IJwufwYdbn9bS2lbsLnSA/gF8ycxWyaDMWMFITM3lcxRyrS7bVtBVk+JaEBLaQqCFgT Rn8A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:subject:from:reply-to:to:cc:date :in-reply-to:references:organization:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=0+87LHO0UR3yswg3/Es+X+hkpRxuThHhqsv+cI6BYuE=; b=IWvjKZe8cBwD0tChT45yzqUl7rIx1rbD4Rl2XQKsXI47na1WiX1CXuhE+DVGGc3Wbw vJVE5zZBSOhTPt9Hr2n7hxvpqhyDGBSAZxh78lbGsjA7G5KQM2CD/N1pH7csZcDLT+B2 aQWvojpUaPRCQhW/ZmBaoZb5XqXByLSQFTHR7WpDwQdaCrYX2SJALJ425IGXunSOpZVC vZKdqPfEZkZx5h8XQ9Ojr8U1iYPbrEzcy1MB5WuNbBx6bqLmzXHtjzzLjYC49iJbdCF/ yE33OBcQwbtlMSRk5IILWTSexItzRO4CqORCUvTrJ2Ayva7ltOFb0DPdPnmYmyQRGyhP GKGg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVMRBJLRMniMjqV7CWRCjg+3l7fJ01HFgd3Lkfpuc2b4m7AbMop 0+xcla+o/yMFlrfNRWzgCxM2bSxgE18= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwKif9GKSrZiUoVfvQh9damAKruGSrx5YBdF0+EOZdtuQJrMZuNvMV6rF8M8Iuu7J+D3Jcwmw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:1411:: with SMTP id d17mr14423212qkj.81.1565361672648; Fri, 09 Aug 2019 07:41:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from desktop32.lenzicasa ([179.184.51.72]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o21sm39363230qtq.16.2019.08.09.07.41.10 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=AEAD-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 09 Aug 2019 07:41:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3c0ff057d8e6cb716288ecf80b95a38b13f6f8e8.camel@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Is NFS still broken in FreeBSD? From: Sergio de Almeida Lenzi Reply-To: nervoso@k1.com.br To: hw , Julien Cigar Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2019 11:41:12 -0300 In-Reply-To: <87ftmaxvpa.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <87v9v7nru4.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190809092141.GA67645@home.lan> <87ftmaxvpa.fsf@toy.adminart.net> Organization: K1 sistemas Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.28.5 FreeBSD GNOME Team Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 464nx60P3Wz4f1W X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=SAG/2tyd; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of lenzisergio@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::72a as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=lenzisergio@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.48 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[nervoso@k1.com.br]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.984,0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; REPLYTO_DOM_NEQ_FROM_DOM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[a.2.7.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-9.41), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-2.98), asn: 15169(-2.40), country: US(-0.05)]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2019 14:41:15 -0000 I have never heard about any problem with NFS in BSD systems, I use it since... forever... as an example, I have in my nfs server in the /etc/exports: /home -alldirs -maproot=0 -network 192.168 /mnt -alldirs -maproot=0 -network 192.168 /export -alldirs -maproot=0 -network 192.168 /diskless -alldirs -maproot=0 -network 192.168 /var/tftpboot -alldirs -maproot=0 -network 192.168 /usr/src -alldirs -maproot=0 -network 192.168 It works, both in FreeBSD nvsv4 systems, NetBSD in nfsv3, windows, linux... using lockd & statd.. the nfsv3 have the limit of 4gb files, but the nfsv4 is unlimited.. and everything works... the only issue I have is with nfsv4 when the server "crashes" or is rebooted.. seems that nfsv4 is not stateless... but a no-break in the nfs server solved all the "crashes" I had.. Hope it can help. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Aug 9 15:15:46 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B3F1CB42B for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 15:15:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@boosten.org) Received: from smtpq1.tb.mail.iss.as9143.net (smtpq1.tb.mail.iss.as9143.net [212.54.42.164]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 464phw09PWz3BrB for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 15:15:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@boosten.org) Received: from [212.54.42.135] (helo=smtp11.tb.mail.iss.as9143.net) by smtpq1.tb.mail.iss.as9143.net with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1hw6cG-0002yf-Co; Fri, 09 Aug 2019 17:15:40 +0200 Received: from 84-25-247-31.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl ([84.25.247.31] helo=smtp.boosten.org) by smtp11.tb.mail.iss.as9143.net with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1hw6cG-0002fN-7f; Fri, 09 Aug 2019 17:15:40 +0200 Received: from mailserver.boosten.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.boosten.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5974F3C5DD; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 17:15:39 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at boosten.org Received: from smtp.boosten.org ([127.0.0.1]) by mailserver.boosten.org (mailserver.boosten.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QFsMhJ3Vyyft; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 17:15:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from amon.boosten.org (Amon.boosten.org [192.168.13.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.boosten.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2E0F53C5BA; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 17:15:36 +0200 (CEST) From: freebsd@boosten.org Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: Re: Is NFS still broken in FreeBSD? Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2019 17:15:35 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87k1bmxwdc.fsf@toy.adminart.net> Cc: Erich Dollansky , Paul Macdonald via freebsd-questions To: hw References: <87v9v7nru4.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190809084409.0dc3c669.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <87k1bmxwdc.fsf@toy.adminart.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-SourceIP: 84.25.247.31 X-Ziggo-spambar: / X-Ziggo-spamscore: 0.0 X-Ziggo-spamreport: CMAE Analysis: v=2.3 cv=Xc33M7x5 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=JWBJsaPp29SgP5DpYRBqZw==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=FmdZ9Uzk2mMA:10 a=0KU9oN4GAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=pQlW7ow2vhJMmU9JjBAA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=mL032U4Dr3kA:10 a=Cwvrka5r01MA:10 a=m6CWodRrSQf3azzE:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=vZUsqdSGfhw7UDhy8bVS:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 X-Ziggo-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Flag: No X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 464phw09PWz3BrB X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.78 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[boosten.org:s=myselector]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:212.54.32.0/19]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[boosten.org:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[boosten.org,quarantine]; FROM_NO_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.983,0]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE(-1.20)[ipnet: 212.54.32.0/20(-3.74), asn: 33915(-2.26), country: NL(0.01)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[164.42.54.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:33915, ipnet:212.54.32.0/20, country:NL]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[31.247.25.84.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2019 15:15:46 -0000 > Op 9 aug. 2019, om 16:10 heeft hw het volgende = geschreven: >=20 > Besides that this might contradict what has been said before, it is > definitely wrong. If you think it's not you need to show how you can > export, for example, /directory-a read-only and then /directory-b > read-write. No, it isn=E2=80=99t. Have a look at this page, and all might become clear to you: = https://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/network-nfs.html = What it means is that two directories on the same file system cannot be = exported to the same client when you specify them on two different lines = in your export file. You need to specify them on one line (again: just = in the same file system, which shouldn=E2=80=99t be a big problem when = using zfs). Peter= From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Aug 9 17:28:41 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F65BCD983 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 17:28:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic315-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic315-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.190.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 464sfH2XXYz3KV9 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 17:28:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: 3bZjjIkVM1laTMTIgI_nL4KWZFlPtCPhdYrxJGh24DWasG0Vw8e7mTBu9iLYFWo U36QS5a823L98DvLVPqJxAtc5SHItV03KufaV46ZRLddVLTZ2Nag_DnnHS6WlBm_yMZzo6LXmNpu _4..N_rEZ_5dhLYeQfbpodl7Mjhe.iP7L0Ekys.3Yg2UVn6MFzxegos822_t2nntnHGAtMVpobhC pH3_XIFY0.j_v8GB2Q1XVM4ITOFPswiClAJCI0rben_9cYAKNFEp7iy3QDuigz8sw6xIZ_jOE9BS ITbO4Kwba0FtN4y9Ulp70Xtn2YLy0E5XIKm9j25I.VkZH8o3RUckVkXeLq0i38ieATDhiwtSnAep an4VJOLVuLMV86ZC4hqk4rqLRhypK3qv4gVCxj88ZSPRAXvAI_yMp09iwy7NhbWux.HaTej9tKdK A8PROk5doyvei_hEPj_VvYfBh_eM0b5rPaCIGGNxiJQKrwyzrsHBbpDnYy4qau9Cs1o_e0l_..f1 Z_CXovSQawjzJhg7gm2C2LdfVZR3pCGwaiT0E872mQCu9waYx2GnohtinHEm2PNOtsc8ZVcYtO_K rOyTZKbPj1RQEKhsXlIWNGcfkuhbAlwZ2VbQOOXcRsy8YM0VNj4ZAU.eYDoe9wTe8t4wY71PEEFf kvFT.WAtLOyTwl.4Dp0LPZfd4eja9L9vyM2e5MNa26q2qdrzMZfbpGv4.S3xDr4gQBA4mlxs5fdY .TQVTUhi42ed7NUQpo13u.OKVfiW_V7XciOqfMn8EBPbbSS5LL42AJqZeUwuf6v2oZnF0BgK.tbG uR08n9PfcI3l2QX7yECBCeNK.fpWDtjpXcv0JqY945Kjr7RJaX5drMy6v372q_5BmQKkQUdhRvGz jnLKocfgQZsgq1TCgvLxZu2tpLawXQzef89ve9ejTgDAC_593pJXo03SyjlVrrCPCMz4FkkUrz49 KzfnxHt9EFj7mreZ_bmB_jpA0YCJppYmDt.U2c1SJcz2GO.gScigB07eREz92VeWppTeA4KOVwJz DX2b3g2CBhG0XPjZ8MDEoP2kpDVuZRGINVjPl_ClhvVCE886R3eo.PiIbsevxU_xVWqy6p44_zx. UCkCmJx_MRpGKh_PDWw2FwndtknayOdfM5vlT9y0OgatSXCRDMlgtF4BxCyY5JUvSW.4WAijSEIb hw13Pk.ZvZbqxUpexD2ieWRsuaIxFENldKVAmY.SnKtTmqlljqglZxijtepiiKx923wE1ZY.8U5V eimDkXmEIFYdtdx5.eodYSiQtUrnqhSMG Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic315.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 17:28:37 +0000 Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2019 17:28:33 +0000 (UTC) From: Paul Pathiakis To: Graham Perrin , hw Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Message-ID: <642539354.3381302.1565371713774@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <87o90yxy99.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <20190808180557.abbdd74fcdb74806aed1fd98@gc-24.de> <87o90yxy99.fsf@toy.adminart.net> Subject: Re: kill -9 does nothing MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.14097 YMailNorrin Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/60.0 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 464sfH2XXYz3KV9 X-Spamd-Bar: / X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.92 / 15.00]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.84)[0.841,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.25)[-0.251,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (4.10), ipnet: 66.163.184.0/21(1.27), asn: 36646(1.02), country: US(-0.05)]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.33)[0.333,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[146.190.163.66.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2019 17:28:41 -0000 Yes, let's go with that.... NFS is bad on FreeBSD and leave it at that. Never mind that it was developed on SunOS 3.x which was a BSD operating sys= tem.... it's just BAD.... Never mind that it's used heavily by NetApp, you know, that oh-so-small NAS= vendor making huge money hand over fist with NFS... and their OS is based = on FreeBSD.... it's just BAD.... :D Sorry... just too funny. P. On Friday, August 9, 2019, 11:14:53 AM EDT, hw wrote:= =20 =20 Graham Perrin writes: > On 08/08/2019 17:05, hw wrote: >> =E2=80=A6 Firefox has a tendency to become unresponsive. =E2=80=A6 > Which version of the OS? 12 release It turned out that Firefox was stuck in some kind of NFS deadlock.=C2=A0 I even had to destroy the VM because it won't shutdown anymore.=C2=A0 NFS is bad with FreeBSD. _______________________________________________ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org= " =20 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Aug 9 20:50:49 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AA64A9997 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 20:50:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lee@adminart.net) Received: from mo6-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de (mo6-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de [IPv6:2a01:238:20a:202:5300::8]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "*.smtp.rzone.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 464y7W4KgCz429d for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 20:50:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lee@adminart.net) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1565383844; s=strato-dkim-0002; d=adminart.net; h=References:Message-ID:Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From: X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH:From:Subject:Sender; bh=WUqr0P20utZEsl4gsWcfnSPiYC7HaNekjuYSxnlz2I8=; b=toizaH0hjIGm7Tkjo+eE4mCynZELMdEG29VR4m3vRkLNtGyx8TQYgOhhgJpL6is+oq fR3un/2CBEB80EFcW/slAE/lLUDWJydnbL1ukHl05kJTGB++K4j+z1MiV5tDwJq/Zc/y z2GAKXGEUtIvX09UPul4jvit+PeJC2DAORI5dC7qQhmd+OFZ5tJxfgFL3s/qhHLEJ4Do mBpX4v78Y51lfdiTyb1K9Mh/KK8FolWmFk1yN25qTV7xV+OJcJ21H1RGFmi3G8d0fZ0y WXnaQ7bvLaGwZXk9lF1KjB6oUSxsgJ99+/wLjUepj9EKkksZpkECKY6a9vPJrsO9Bld/ Ofag== X-RZG-AUTH: ":O2kGeEG7b/pS1FS4THaxjVF9w0vVgfQ9xGcjwO5WMRo5c+h5ceMqQWZ3yrBp+ARdaXvxIDf7nlw=" X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Received: from himinbjorg.adminart.net by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 44.24 DYNA|AUTH) with ESMTPSA id e0059dv79Koix8n (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (curve secp521r1 with 521 ECDH bits, eq. 15360 bits RSA)) (Client did not present a certificate); Fri, 9 Aug 2019 22:50:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from toy.adminart.net ([192.168.3.55]) by himinbjorg.adminart.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hwBqW-0001hw-5p; Fri, 09 Aug 2019 22:50:44 +0200 Received: from lee by toy.adminart.net with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hwBqV-0000Au-LS; Fri, 09 Aug 2019 22:50:43 +0200 From: hw To: Polytropon Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: thunderbird in German? In-Reply-To: <20190809133419.3de9e65f.freebsd@edvax.de> (Polytropon's message of "Fri, 9 Aug 2019 13:34:19 +0200") Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2019 22:50:00 +0200 Organization: my virtual residence Message-ID: <87pnlevzbb.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <87o91bw4mx.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190731012754.3783a859.freebsd@edvax.de> <878ssc5v3x.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190802053434.6babd0d0.freebsd@edvax.de> <87y30b8h0v.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190803042205.550f5903.freebsd@edvax.de> <87pnllbxp7.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190805070522.be1fb873.freebsd@edvax.de> <87sgqdq0nw.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190809133419.3de9e65f.freebsd@edvax.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 464y7W4KgCz429d X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=adminart.net header.s=strato-dkim-0002 header.b=toizaH0h; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of lee@adminart.net has no SPF policy when checking 2a01:238:20a:202:5300::8) smtp.mailfrom=lee@adminart.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.86 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[adminart.net:s=strato-dkim-0002]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[adminart.net]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[adminart.net:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.989,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[hw@adminart.net,lee@adminart.net]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[8.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.3.5.2.0.2.0.a.0.2.0.8.3.2.0.1.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6724, ipnet:2a01:238::/32, country:DE]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[hw@adminart.net,lee@adminart.net]; IP_SCORE(-0.77)[ipnet: 2a01:238::/32(-3.39), asn: 6724(-0.46), country: DE(-0.01)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2019 20:50:49 -0000 Polytropon writes: > On Wed, 07 Aug 2019 02:28:19 +0200, hw wrote: >> Polytropon writes: >>=20 >> > On Sun, 04 Aug 2019 02:07:00 +0200, hw wrote: >> >> Polytropon writes: >> >>=20 >> >> > On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 22:10:56 +0200, hw wrote: >> >> >> Polytropon writes: >> >> >>=20 >> >> >> > On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 01:22:42 +0200, hw wrote: >> >> >> >> Polytropon writes: >> >> >> >>=20 >> >> >> [...] >> >> > While it has been good practice for decades to use -Wall and its >> >> > equivalents, it doesn't seem to be important anymore. Compile time >> >> > errors and warnings are irrelevant just as runtime warnings and >> >> > errors. >> >>=20 >> >> My impression is that software is now generally much more stable than= it >> >> used to be. I don't know why, perhaps better tools became available. >> > >> > Yes, program stability has improved, especially for web browsers. >> > But it's more than fair to acknowledge that the complexity of a >> > web browser is comparable to the complexity of a whole operating >> > system. >>=20 >> Web browsers are evil. > > A neccessary one, it seems... It's not necessary; only the functionality needs to be kept within reasonable limits. > [...] >> > >> > A few can be explained (the last one probably refers to a damaged >> > or nonstandard PNG file), but the others are warnings and "CRITICAL", >> > where I think this should have been addressed during testing. Do >> > they still do testing today? :-) >>=20 >> I don't know. Did Gimp crash or something? > > No, it works as intended, no problems. Just those messages. Maybe then there isn't a problem --- and/or it means that Gimp handles broken files gracefully. > Maybe I should decorate my programs with such warnings, too? ;-) As long as they work gracefully even under adverse conditions, nobody would mind. > [...] >> > Need more download brain apps from smartphone. :-) >>=20 >> That won't help ... >>=20 >> In some way, it's hard to blame them because they never learned how much >> can be done with 64kB of RAM and how "fast" computers can be. I was >> gona say you can't really blame them for the total failure of the >> educational system, but when they can protest against climate change, I >> have to say they should long ago have protested much more against the >> poor education they're getting. I suppose they have been told one thing >> and not the other, so they try to go the easier way ... > > You need to "exceed" the education you receive to _recognize_ > that it is poor. If the education works on you, you will be > sure you got the best education available. :-) It's one way of becoming extinct. Perhaps that's for the better. >> I don't want all the windows to look the same, that's ugly and boring, >> and some need to be handled differently than others for things to be >> usable. > > Yes, because even though programs have common ways for inter- > action (the known GUI elements), they serve different purposes > and therefore it's _significant_ to provide an interaction that > matches the task you want to perform with the program. That doesn't mean everything has to look the same and needs to be boring. > Example (seen a few days ago): An accounting program, data entry: > You need to click on every input field in order to enter the > data with the beyboard. That sucks. > Some fields have a button where you can open a "calculator-like" > screen keyboard for numbers. But for letters, there's none. You cannot > use TAB or cursor keys or ENTER to advance fields. Can you imagine how > annoying it must be to enter pages and pages of information to that > stupid program? Oh - and you cannot feed external data... I would refuse to use such a crap. >> > A program's job is _not_ to do what the window manager does. A program >> > can request to be handled in a different way, for exaple, without >> > a window decoration (like XMMS MP3 player where it doesn't make sense, >> > or little utilities in the "system corner" like xconsole, xbiff, >> > xclock, xload, xcpufreq, etc.). But programs sometimes used their >> > own ugly white _mouse cursor_ for no reason! Using a specific >> > mouse cursor is normal for tools like Gimp, xfig, even LibreOffice. >> > But generic programs? Why? >>=20 >> Like emacs using a particular pointer to indicate that it is busy when >> configured to do so can make sense. If it couldn't do that, it would >> need to somehow tell the WM that it's busy and the WM would have to >> change the pointer on some or all windows --- and if it would be done >> like that rather than emacs changing the pointer, people would say the >> WM and emacs are bloated. Or are they, or is X11 bloated for allowing >> to change pointers? > > If the cursor changes for a good reason, it's acceptable, Who is to decide what is a good reason and what isn't? I have spent so much time waiting on computers that I don't want a pointer or anything to change to an icon which indicates that the computer is busy with something. I want that something done and not a busy computer. Even that emacs is single threaded is very annoying at times ... > but what about a program changing my normal black mouse cursot to an > ugly white one? It's a PDF viewer, nothing more! It doesn't switch to > any other cursor shape (like Gimp: cross cursor for selection, paint > can cursor, brush cursor and so on). Perhaps who decided it should change has got lots of black PDFs and needs this to indicate that the PDF viewer has the focus. It's like the retards who are sending HTML and think it's an email, or web pages trying to use their own fonts as if the idiot designing the page had any idea what it might look like on my screen and what fonts I like and which ones not. Who do they think they are? >> >> >> But when you use the trackball with your left hand, [...] >> >> > >> >> > That's entirely wrong. You don't use a trackball because it >> >> > does not exist. Everyone uses a mouse (old people) or taps on >> >> > the screen (young people). ;-) >> >>=20 >> >> Dunno, I've already been way ahead of those tiny tap-screens 35 years >> >> ago when I used an old black-and-white TV as a display for my compute= r. >> >> I could see everything on it, and I could even program the computer >> >> which made it rather useful, and, imagine that, without being spied u= pon >> >> and without being controlled by anyone else. So I don't understand h= ow >> >> anyone can put up with the useless crap you have to tap on while you >> >> can't see anything and achieve nothing. >> > >> > That's totally intended. :-) >>=20 >> That doesn't mean people have to put with it. > > People have learned to accept it. It's only an aquired stupidity --- which they are planning to spend EUR 5 billion on to make more people more stupid. That you can't protect anyone against their own stupidity doesn't mean you should support it, unless you're a big meanie. > [...] >> >> Hallowed are the like buttons! Who presses the greatest number of th= em >> >> will be rewarded with the most friends of them all! >> > >> > I prefer the dislike buttons, I'd be tempted to click on _those_ >> > rather than the Facebook spy machine's ones. :-) >>=20 >> The problem is always that there are no such buttons. Think of >> elections, too ... > > Elections miss a "none of those", which is problematic especially > in Germany where shit is offered in different tastes; interestingly, > if I remember correctly, India (!) has a "none of those" option... That isn't enough. The only votes possible should be against someone or something, and what- or whoever has the least votes against it or them wins. > [...] >> If I only could make Sylpheed remember which program to use to open >> which kind of attachment with ... > > I haven't found a way to do that conveniently. Or at least > _one_ program to open anything with a doubleclick. I think > there is some OpenDesktop opener - xdgopen - which can be > called for any file type and will then perform the required > action. if that is the desired action ... I'll have to see how the users like it. I'm giving them both options. >> >> But I haven't figured out how to make it so that libreoffice instead = of >> >> gedit is the default program to open spreadsheets attached to >> >> emails. >> > >> > Right-click on attachment, select "Open with", enter the command >> > needed for this file type, and it will be saved. >>=20 >> It saves only the command and not when to use it. That is way too >> complicated for the users because they need not only to remember to pick >> it but also which one. > > I have learned to live with it, but I find it annoying, too. Hm, that's really bad. Maybe I should make a feature request. >> [...] >> Why can't there be a button at the attachment I can click on to open >> the attachment with the program I once, and only once, picked for it? > > This is the concept of the common file associations in file > managers. Sylpheed could pick that idea up. File managers don't have a button like that. >> Why do I even have to "open" the attachment rather than Sylpheed >> displaying it inline like it does with images? Libreoffice is open >> source ... > > Because that's problematic. Inline image viewer - yes, not > that complicated. PDF renderer? More complicated. HTML renderer, > with CSS and JS? Very complicated, better embed a browser > session. Office documents? With macros? Oh, _very_ dangerous. > MP3 files? A player would have to be mebedded. There are just > too many possibilities and no one size fits all eierlegende > Wollmilchsau mit Goldf=C3=BC=C3=9Fen und Glockenspiel. :-) Then why is the HTML junk optionally displayed? That isn't an email and nothing I would want to see. As to choosing the desired program, programs simply need to support some standard for being embedded into other programs, and users could choose. But wait ... users nowadays don't have preferences and you can just pick the program for them. >> > For example, I have two different commands for PDF attachments - >> > simply because I sometimes need program A, sometimes program B, >> > depending on the PDF file. >>=20 >> Users don't have that. > > Exactly. That's why Thunderbird does a better job in this case. > It "just works". Have a PDF attachment - doubleclick - system's > PDF viewer opens it. Where do you live? It doesn't work that way, especially not "just". What happens is that the user calls you and you have to pick a PDF viewer for them after installing one they can use. The difference to Sylpheed is that you need to do that only once in a while rather than for every PDF they want to print. Sometimes, you need to use another PDF viewer for them because the default one is unable to print something. Meanwhile, the users blame you for their own incompetence. >> Even if everyone had lots of programs to open PDFs and spreadsheets, >> Sylpheed should nonetheless be able to remember them all and have a >> button to straightforwardly use the one picked for the purpose to open >> an attachment. It is rather unlikely that I would want to use all or >> even several of them to open that attachment and more likely that I do >> want to use the program I want to use for it, so what the heck. > > So there's sufficient space for improvement. :-) The feature just hasn't been thought about, let alone thought through. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Aug 9 22:53:35 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3778AC6C9 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 22:53:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from serejk@febras.net) Received: from prima.febras.net (prima.febras.net [62.76.193.23]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "*.febras.net", Issuer "COMODO RSA Organization Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4650sB1Qb9z48Y9 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2019 22:53:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from serejk@febras.net) Received: from [192.168.1.5] (host.95-85-72-180.broadband.redcom.ru [95.85.72.180]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: serejk@febras.net) by prima.febras.net ("FEB RAS network Mail Server") with ESMTPSA id 5313255B902; Sat, 10 Aug 2019 08:53:12 +1000 (VLAT) References: <20190808180557.abbdd74fcdb74806aed1fd98@gc-24.de> <87o90yxy99.fsf@toy.adminart.net> In-Reply-To: <87o90yxy99.fsf@toy.adminart.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1251 Message-Id: <05B96F5A-2141-460E-B9F1-7BC4A7854B4A@febras.net> Cc: Graham Perrin , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (14G60) From: Korolev Sergey Subject: Re: kill -9 does nothing Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 08:53:11 +1000 To: hw X-FEBRAS-Info: Contact e-mail: admin@febras.net X-FEBRAS-ID: 5313255B902.A2142 X-FEBRAS: clean X-FEBRAS-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-13.799, required 5, ALL_TRUSTED -1.00, BAYES_00 -15.00, MR_NOT_ATTRIBUTED_IP 0.20, RATWR8_MESSID 2.00, URIBL_BLOCKED 0.00) X-FEBRAS-From: serejk@febras.net X-FEBRAS-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, grahamperrin@gmail.com, hw@adminart.net X-Spam-Status: No X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4650sB1Qb9z48Y9 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of serejk@febras.net designates 62.76.193.23 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=serejk@febras.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.67 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:62.76.193.23]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[febras.net]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.963,0]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.96)[-0.957,0]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.96)[-0.956,0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[country: RU(0.01)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34017, ipnet:62.76.193.0/24, country:RU]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[gmail.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2019 22:53:36 -0000 I don't think this is an NFS problem. I had got the same problem with Apache= + ZFS combination (but it was an old FreeBSD version like 7-8, I don't reme= mber). The main point is that the process hangs in iowait state, which it ne= ver will exit from. The only solution is hard reboot. The reason of that is r= ather more complicated, than just "NFS is bad", or "Apache is bad". This is a= n Open Source, and you could always help with a patch, extensive debug info t= o clarify the bug, etc, so any help will be appreciated. > On 9 Aug 2019, at 23:29, hw wrote: >=20 > Graham Perrin writes: >=20 >>> On 08/08/2019 17:05, hw wrote: >>> =85 Firefox has a tendency to become unresponsive. =85 >> Which version of the OS? >=20 > 12 release >=20 > It turned out that Firefox was stuck in some kind of NFS deadlock. I > even had to destroy the VM because it won't shutdown anymore. NFS is > bad with FreeBSD. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.or= g" From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Aug 10 07:33:15 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F57DB4B59 for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2019 07:33:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mafsys1234@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pg1-x52f.google.com (mail-pg1-x52f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 465DNp2BpSz4VM5 for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2019 07:33:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mafsys1234@gmail.com) Received: by mail-pg1-x52f.google.com with SMTP id l21so46943082pgm.3 for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2019 00:33:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=Ol2YpWy4/Cm6m5ZRL7fBSqsXZD4eA46nM3FATmkn5yQ=; b=oYLF2AAAQaxvje5KbI7OFf1gJtxJ3RyX1BStnyPuVrlka+XxLviUnReZMQP8//UkXo UCBNNEBT3zWPyVz+rAgZQe/J8qUhjy/a+zp+wE4Ob2H0s2vnRAfJEQyJ9ijdjdIWEgRU upOBCpGiDrw9F5AnGwqz3IGV+OEkl4G8dcDCMijJQhhVuAE0LJLxRxVClKzD7mzuLyYj peVcavm2uAQQ0dQCsE5giMfo8S8dGasAGjfAIxdgoa4BIMr8XMzbdPlzu7vF+c2Xop18 DE8wZHevqlp7AIsZ5Wk3SfSVRjuhZCxKCzqfl+iey0K8jwdIERpRsc7bQqE2lqSK5wZ1 NQWg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=Ol2YpWy4/Cm6m5ZRL7fBSqsXZD4eA46nM3FATmkn5yQ=; b=eV8u/HMCN6PmznC2IzmHwkIWoQLlV3v+1Do/xERnphaVmNomG1Z+yuJXEKnm0NHtjc 3g2Z1k14jTEYJheWVWIFftoOcJOHm1jFVw9P9wwPbugvK+xE8YIkqEMkC9JXam9v1Uie Q6zN2LUeqSp3QMRMQVn5eJ6FPdwKQYxLD9MKhwyHEofFGqD6jCfv8V5UzETYPcW5bYNl 06bJ0LYjX7vMCQU3wcitUewWtt4xWXlvRqX4opEY05VI69vv26HRF46XNd3cD9kSpbXW LoboIz3UYmGDvI+9SERKvyjM1eUm+IeU/+F9b77xcIl90A3fX5B62yq/pVk7om/hiqqC HoYw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXrsW2SkBL+3QXpAOsaXRevrkXdMjetTCUM/YTtkCVH9ZlKgEzn 2ABGWt3CZFPswSajl7HUmMWgAwiy X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzAce0Gg/GYVsU8aYng//j1NNuaTa2eeV7pYheTviKYuPumOzo5SAgrBlFriW0hbCKASJHe5A== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:2525:: with SMTP id j34mr13638105pje.11.1565422391823; Sat, 10 Aug 2019 00:33:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (C-59-101-197-80.bur.connect.net.au. [59.101.197.80]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l44sm6915183pje.29.2019.08.10.00.33.10 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 10 Aug 2019 00:33:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: how to install into a directory To: hw Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <871ry05xea.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <18a2c14c-0767-534a-dc48-dbd167180e1b@gmail.com> <87lfw5pzx7.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <87wofmxzhy.fsf@toy.adminart.net> From: MJ Message-ID: <16786e7a-1a2f-fea9-8648-1959aaecddfe@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 17:32:34 +1000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87wofmxzhy.fsf@toy.adminart.net> Content-Language: en-US X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 465DNp2BpSz4VM5 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=oYLF2AAA; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mafsys1234@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::52f as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mafsys1234@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[3]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[80.197.101.59.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.10]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[f.2.5.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-8.92), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-2.98), asn: 15169(-2.40), country: US(-0.05)]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 07:33:15 -0000 On 9/08/2019 11:03 pm, hw wrote: > MJ writes: > >> You have read the handbook? >> https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/x-xdm.html >> >> Specifically: >> >> 5.6.2. Configuring Remote Access >> >> ?? >> >> That's if I understand your musings correctly? > There is no remote access involved. I am PXE booting diskless clients > so that users can use xfreerdp to create sessions on and work on an xrdp > server. Ok. > That means when a client boots, it needs to automatically start a local > X session in order to run xfreerdp. The idea was to use XDM on the > client so a user can log in. Once the user has logged in, XDM needs to > start xfreerdp (which creates the problem that the user would have to > log in to the server again). So, why does Xsession fail when XDM runs (not a user running startx)? .xession in the user's home directory is for commands to be executed upon user login. You've put the commands you want to run in there? What is failing in there? Is there an |.xsession-errors file in the user's directory? I would expect there to be one. | From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Aug 10 08:31:45 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51FEDB6770 for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2019 08:31:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) Received: from ms-10.1blu.de (ms-10.1blu.de [178.254.4.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 465FhH5zKKz4Xqn for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2019 08:31:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) Received: from [188.174.90.199] (helo=localhost.unixarea.de) by ms-10.1blu.de with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hwMmq-0000za-74 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sat, 10 Aug 2019 10:31:40 +0200 Received: from localhost.my.domain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.unixarea.de (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPS id x7A8VdRJ003773 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2019 10:31:39 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) Received: (from guru@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.15.2/8.14.9/Submit) id x7A8VdwZ003772 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sat, 10 Aug 2019 10:31:39 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.my.domain: guru set sender to guru@unixarea.de using -f Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 10:31:39 +0200 From: Matthias Apitz To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: USB stick for msdosfs Message-ID: <20190810083139.GA3606@c720-r342378> Reply-To: Matthias Apitz Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 13.0-CURRENT r342378 (amd64) X-message-flag: Mails containing HTML will not be read! Please send only plain text. User-Agent: Mutt/1.11.1 (2018-12-01) X-Con-Id: 51246 X-Con-U: 0-guru X-Originating-IP: 188.174.90.199 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 465FhH5zKKz4Xqn X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of guru@unixarea.de has no SPF policy when checking 178.254.4.101) smtp.mailfrom=guru@unixarea.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.79 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[guru@unixarea.de]; HAS_XOIP(0.00)[]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.97)[-0.969,0]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[199.90.174.188.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.10]; IP_SCORE(-1.14)[ip: (-8.18), ipnet: 178.254.0.0/19(1.35), asn: 42730(1.14), country: DE(-0.01)]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:42730, ipnet:178.254.0.0/19, country:DE]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[101.4.254.178.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.995,0]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.984,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[unixarea.de]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 08:31:45 -0000 Hello, I have a 1G (1 "marketing GB") USB stick and use normaly this procedure which I have stored in y small set of how-to docs: # gpart destroy -F da0 # gpart create -s mbr da0 # gpart add -t \!12 da0 # newfs_msdos -F32 /dev/da0s1 What does the '-t \!12' mean? And why in the case here newfs_msdos(8) is unwilling to format the partition: # gpart destroy -F da0 da0 destroyed # gpart create -s mbr da0 da0 created # gpart add -t \!12 da0 da0s1 added # newfs_msdos -F32 /dev/da0s1 newfs_msdos: 61408 clusters too few clusters for FAT32, need 65525 # gpart list da0 Geom name: da0 modified: false state: OK fwheads: 64 fwsectors: 32 last: 1966079 first: 32 entries: 4 scheme: MBR Providers: 1. Name: da0s1 Mediasize: 1006616576 (960M) Sectorsize: 512 Stripesize: 0 Stripeoffset: 16384 Mode: r0w0e0 efimedia: HD(1,MBR,00000000,0x20,0x1dffe0) rawtype: 12 length: 1006616576 offset: 16384 type: fat32lba index: 1 end: 1966079 start: 32 Consumers: 1. Name: da0 Mediasize: 1006632960 (960M) Sectorsize: 512 Mode: r0w0e0 It works with -F16: # newfs_msdos -F16 /dev/da0s1 /dev/da0s1: 1965504 sectors in 61422 FAT16 clusters (16384 bytes/cluster) BytesPerSec=512 SecPerClust=32 ResSectors=1 FATs=2 RootDirEnts=512 Media=0xf0 FATsecs=240 SecPerTrack=32 Heads=64 HiddenSecs=0 HugeSectors=1966048 Why not with -F32? Thanks matthias -- Matthias Apitz, ✉ guru@unixarea.de, http://www.unixarea.de/ +49-176-38902045 Public GnuPG key: http://www.unixarea.de/key.pub From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Aug 10 08:59:45 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E628B735F for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2019 08:59:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mafsys1234@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pl1-x635.google.com (mail-pl1-x635.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::635]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 465GJb5DHdz4YvL for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2019 08:59:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mafsys1234@gmail.com) Received: by mail-pl1-x635.google.com with SMTP id a93so45843858pla.7 for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2019 01:59:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=QdJsoxDJ620Hfp/X2b7go1Y2HPtbjwi+i6OSoluM2pc=; b=md4pYUrQjJbB5ThDKtkd+eD0x4ZwFF4ewI+p8H0exkrkzPwm+EuxJgsS/7wIyhLaOT XVIUxCXGaiNvZMg4I1PSe+SUeJ462CNgnx3DH7MQwUKPiVjPv55DTqLkjZjydiERtRMY EtV86ECmRQFj/XqD//eHEY/mB/Hq7XRdJSa3nnBE92t1hTQAtnogqfGyGSXSdiTc+nbU zrg3UJJLoeGBy2ay7CsScokGssCAUzOpwZcPYWjOTPOjMV72JL22OCTLAo72MMUEm43N AcaoPmvOQ99tKJoeEqLwfIiA6x35GH9SQ10Vqo2KkcyWOMJf801QyNLucxXGgHm/sVCY HxJg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=QdJsoxDJ620Hfp/X2b7go1Y2HPtbjwi+i6OSoluM2pc=; b=M1XjY8U+EtbcV8iKaQWiQ0ilX+cLLpFBlJLb3+HRFZqTGymkY4KpJgANPPE43/yfng jVpyO60MmelMhTwkMO8qaSsAE6EIvejeuJBA/0LdtU/3O5Tu0Wt/HROzDyTLfiT3FRe5 fJmaGjZPt7MUAbwDFWBdgnyFnoW+AhkLD0IhQtbDyY/GXtAMv1WjPKRFWsPAb2CvzyMd Hy8pP0u7qtOVzxYJYq6J1Raq5r4B28MqNo0kTlnENtjivWooWxWm4WvPqQAcHYubcJQW HWwICaQwGuBIZTHY/N9XWevHB/OyYcffdw420wt6c7W4ecVmqaUE6TAkYaOLmsXVXnaD 3NhA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVN2JEr29GReLLAWUcr+BzOBpYp2kMKI9YRfrYxxDzLJpHr9thY dfLLPOvuowM5QFlkK2zYO3DF1cRk X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzqvN/nOXK/YkOQGmegoiinskK7QMpomw5Y0LAVcSw8YdawyDTVv+ziPjqAB7iQWdy04r2UAw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:ab83:: with SMTP id f3mr23197763plr.122.1565427581923; Sat, 10 Aug 2019 01:59:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (C-59-101-197-80.bur.connect.net.au. [59.101.197.80]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p1sm398450pff.44.2019.08.10.01.59.40 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 10 Aug 2019 01:59:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: USB stick for msdosfs To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20190810083139.GA3606@c720-r342378> From: MJ Message-ID: <0ce32b01-8fd1-211b-5ef4-43ffa2b843cc@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 18:59:04 +1000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20190810083139.GA3606@c720-r342378> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 465GJb5DHdz4YvL X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=md4pYUrQ; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mafsys1234@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::635 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mafsys1234@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[80.197.101.59.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.10]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-8.57), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-2.98), asn: 15169(-2.40), country: US(-0.05)]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[5.3.6.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 08:59:45 -0000 Hi, The -t sets you partition type, the \!12 is the value. This, according to gpart manual says it's a Fat32 LBA (whatever use that is). I think it's a partition type used by Windows 95/98. The gpart man also lists a "plain" Fat32 with a type of !11, so try that instead then newfs_msdos -F32 Why it's unwilling to format it? Perhaps it doesn't understand LBA (Logical Block Addressing)? Frankly, LBA is useless for a tiny 1GB disk, just use Fat32 (or even Fat16 given you've only got 1GB disk) On 10/08/2019 6:31 pm, Matthias Apitz wrote: > > Hello, > > I have a 1G (1 "marketing GB") USB stick and use normaly this procedure > which I have stored in y small set of how-to docs: > > > # gpart destroy -F da0 > # gpart create -s mbr da0 > # gpart add -t \!12 da0 > # newfs_msdos -F32 /dev/da0s1 > > What does the '-t \!12' mean? And why in the case here newfs_msdos(8) > is unwilling to format the partition: > > # gpart destroy -F da0 > da0 destroyed > # gpart create -s mbr da0 > da0 created > # gpart add -t \!12 da0 > da0s1 added > # newfs_msdos -F32 /dev/da0s1 > newfs_msdos: 61408 clusters too few clusters for FAT32, need 65525 > # gpart list da0 > Geom name: da0 > modified: false > state: OK > fwheads: 64 > fwsectors: 32 > last: 1966079 > first: 32 > entries: 4 > scheme: MBR > Providers: > 1. Name: da0s1 > Mediasize: 1006616576 (960M) > Sectorsize: 512 > Stripesize: 0 > Stripeoffset: 16384 > Mode: r0w0e0 > efimedia: HD(1,MBR,00000000,0x20,0x1dffe0) > rawtype: 12 > length: 1006616576 > offset: 16384 > type: fat32lba > index: 1 > end: 1966079 > start: 32 > Consumers: > 1. Name: da0 > Mediasize: 1006632960 (960M) > Sectorsize: 512 > Mode: r0w0e0 > > It works with -F16: > > # newfs_msdos -F16 /dev/da0s1 > /dev/da0s1: 1965504 sectors in 61422 FAT16 clusters (16384 bytes/cluster) > BytesPerSec=512 SecPerClust=32 ResSectors=1 FATs=2 RootDirEnts=512 Media=0xf0 FATsecs=240 SecPerTrack=32 Heads=64 HiddenSecs=0 HugeSectors=1966048 > > Why not with -F32? Thanks > > matthias > > > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Aug 10 11:35:24 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10290BA23E for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2019 11:35:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 465KmB4sW7z4fsp for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2019 11:35:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.21.22]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue109 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MatZt-1iSzBX38tn-00cT9E; Sat, 10 Aug 2019 13:35:17 +0200 Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 13:35:16 +0200 From: Polytropon To: hw Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: thunderbird in German? Message-Id: <20190810133516.3254f6e5.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <87pnlevzbb.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <87o91bw4mx.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190731012754.3783a859.freebsd@edvax.de> <878ssc5v3x.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190802053434.6babd0d0.freebsd@edvax.de> <87y30b8h0v.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190803042205.550f5903.freebsd@edvax.de> <87pnllbxp7.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190805070522.be1fb873.freebsd@edvax.de> <87sgqdq0nw.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190809133419.3de9e65f.freebsd@edvax.de> <87pnlevzbb.fsf@toy.adminart.net> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:vjt/oQt4AoH47iNDFv+9N6s+t4CyHPHJHjslqbU9THZgln1YsuO Un4OX/99YFUEUtw+jpi0rTEu9xtE7FE4xpiOCG7p/VMV1RmGx45O4lle96TqDtDaPezFVbp ZamfBuzIzKtg5PsDZ2F0wSa19TKggTyidOUGJ0E/e9YgQOlB4oYlWgMwKYG278oWgZGTjGj t5TuaBiH9fRETpYtCXKQg== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:1bDvSiZh0xA=:bIzIQLRz+vB6YAVjSZ0MCq x9eQVg1VOaPWWlDrh/neJMuODHI372plbFFljPfjyduDx0X0sRTiSPp3Jcw8Nlb7p3QvCSD/i uD7oji8/3wRiPhy2FzYOznJSKhyOcyeLMpwZ2JzN/8eW4Dyca+D781i9NIx3DHvWvhlj8Fgjs 2bSnnutM1kuU6+SOMDL2wPSNItCw9GOSIUzi14xHPASuFZCMDyMYiHBSaJTvswyk45DTNXeD8 muYaUb5j971jhwzb+DuMAsXIbK3IZbXBCQoXk9H3Y9ZacxxuF6EqJ0LUX9L7zvHASlQvHGSq3 8qbtjR4xfv07CqT+mdiRc7wL/13zesRX3egJuSHXCGueB9uS7dNikctl6Qs8I85PFxW9CAMjV J2vtRJlzqvu61QZTUiumFZs2JmNKdDLTmlALV7KqSqeX0MU22MqnxbZFbIBixWI9aK4A4k3pw l3yqGrKzZ0TrK7sQSzhlWjaS6KzYCyZA6Q/lLl8QQeTK6CleKJtVjhodB9MhmmGMQiyjf7xoH eolRqZB7kWGiQaSnIhtQtwux0hkGxAPaGOjQWUdP0y4jUGQSGECCEl1DqgY9cpA/KSoasns7H ET3QItboEy+Yp63bM9C3DWGS1zo/Ao+vzD39BB06IAb8paLaSVVIG5bTn9vA7Xd5jBB+zQ24t AjV48fy+iGvHTHjSiXTBC3kDK0rNWQerKhZgExIuIk9cM79ADY3rLnsP34P/dYqRSIlv/Zki+ d2BCJZ11SKQdbAGUJZH9PfQwrQfzmJkeca4YRQuDCkEZ/1De8ruGT7Tr1SY= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 465KmB4sW7z4fsp X-Spamd-Bar: ++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 217.72.192.74) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [6.11 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[22.21.222.94.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:217.72.192.0/20, country:DE]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.44)[0.437,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.97)[0.970,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.98)[0.979,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[74.192.72.217.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(0.32)[ip: (-0.82), ipnet: 217.72.192.0/20(0.18), asn: 8560(2.27), country: DE(-0.01)] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 11:35:24 -0000 On Fri, 09 Aug 2019 22:50:00 +0200, hw wrote: > Polytropon writes: >=20 > > On Wed, 07 Aug 2019 02:28:19 +0200, hw wrote: > >> Polytropon writes: > >>=20 > >> > On Sun, 04 Aug 2019 02:07:00 +0200, hw wrote: > >> >> Polytropon writes: > >> >>=20 > >> >> > On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 22:10:56 +0200, hw wrote: > >> >> >> Polytropon writes: > >> >> >>=20 > >> >> >> > On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 01:22:42 +0200, hw wrote: > >> >> >> >> Polytropon writes: > >> >> >> >>=20 > >> >> >> [...] > >> >> > While it has been good practice for decades to use -Wall and its > >> >> > equivalents, it doesn't seem to be important anymore. Compile ti= me > >> >> > errors and warnings are irrelevant just as runtime warnings and > >> >> > errors. > >> >>=20 > >> >> My impression is that software is now generally much more stable th= an it > >> >> used to be. I don't know why, perhaps better tools became availabl= e. > >> > > >> > Yes, program stability has improved, especially for web browsers. > >> > But it's more than fair to acknowledge that the complexity of a > >> > web browser is comparable to the complexity of a whole operating > >> > system. > >>=20 > >> Web browsers are evil. > > > > A neccessary one, it seems... >=20 > It's not necessary; only the functionality needs to be kept within > reasonable limits. Are there limits? If yes, where? You can see exaggeration regarding limits in some web pages: They want to provide functions the web browser already delivers, like bookmarking, printing, fonts & sizes, and the "back button" of course. Is this needed? Probably not. Is it done? Of course. > > [...] > >> > > >> > A few can be explained (the last one probably refers to a damaged > >> > or nonstandard PNG file), but the others are warnings and "CRITICAL", > >> > where I think this should have been addressed during testing. Do > >> > they still do testing today? :-) > >>=20 > >> I don't know. Did Gimp crash or something? > > > > No, it works as intended, no problems. Just those messages. >=20 > Maybe then there isn't a problem --- and/or it means that Gimp handles > broken files gracefully. But the error message isn't any helpful! What does "(gimp:3022): GLib-WARNING **: goption.c:2132: ignoring no-arg, optional-arg or filename flags (8) on option of type 0" want to tell me? What have I done wrong, what should I do instead? Or about what does the program want to inform me? I have no idea... in my opinion, those messages belong into a "debugging enabled" mode. > > Maybe I should decorate my programs with such warnings, too? ;-) >=20 > As long as they work gracefully even under adverse conditions, nobody > would mind. ***warning***critical***: program: File foo.txt [0], index 4. Yes, this definitely helps. ;-) > >> I don't want all the windows to look the same, that's ugly and boring, > >> and some need to be handled differently than others for things to be > >> usable. > > > > Yes, because even though programs have common ways for inter- > > action (the known GUI elements), they serve different purposes > > and therefore it's _significant_ to provide an interaction that > > matches the task you want to perform with the program. >=20 > That doesn't mean everything has to look the same and needs to be > boring. If you compare web pages, they strangely "all" look the same, more or less, and most of them are boring. "Flat design" which is currently modern requires lots of screen real estate, to provide what could fit nicely on a 80x25 text screen... ;-) > > Example (seen a few days ago): An accounting program, data entry: > > You need to click on every input field in order to enter the > > data with the beyboard. >=20 > That sucks. >=20 > > Some fields have a button where you can open a "calculator-like" > > screen keyboard for numbers. But for letters, there's none. You cannot > > use TAB or cursor keys or ENTER to advance fields. Can you imagine how > > annoying it must be to enter pages and pages of information to that > > stupid program? Oh - and you cannot feed external data... >=20 > I would refuse to use such a crap. Not possible, because it's required by regulations that you use _that_ program for the specific purpose, because only _that_ program exists and is certified. Oh, and of course you have to pay for the privilege to use it. It also does not remember your 4-part access credentials, you need to type them in for every session. > >> > A program's job is _not_ to do what the window manager does. A progr= am > >> > can request to be handled in a different way, for exaple, without > >> > a window decoration (like XMMS MP3 player where it doesn't make sens= e, > >> > or little utilities in the "system corner" like xconsole, xbiff, > >> > xclock, xload, xcpufreq, etc.). But programs sometimes used their > >> > own ugly white _mouse cursor_ for no reason! Using a specific > >> > mouse cursor is normal for tools like Gimp, xfig, even LibreOffice. > >> > But generic programs? Why? > >>=20 > >> Like emacs using a particular pointer to indicate that it is busy when > >> configured to do so can make sense. If it couldn't do that, it would > >> need to somehow tell the WM that it's busy and the WM would have to > >> change the pointer on some or all windows --- and if it would be done > >> like that rather than emacs changing the pointer, people would say the > >> WM and emacs are bloated. Or are they, or is X11 bloated for allowing > >> to change pointers? > > > > If the cursor changes for a good reason, it's acceptable, >=20 > Who is to decide what is a good reason and what isn't? A good question. Common sense, logic, established standards and generally accepted procedures should be applied, but of course not with a stupid strictness that stops developers from creating new and good features. > I have spent so much time waiting on computers that I don't want a > pointer or anything to change to an icon which indicates that the > computer is busy with something. I want that something done and not a > busy computer. Even that emacs is single threaded is very annoying at > times ... Computers are fast and powerful, but programs consume more resources. The quotient resources provided by computer ------------------------------ =3D const. resources consumed by program seems to apply. Computers get faster, programs get more bloated, result of "speed of use" stays the same. Sure, you cannot say that everywhere, for example, media encoders are much more pleasant to use than 10 or 15 years ago, but just have a look at the load times of "modern" web pages. Compare that to "old" web pages on old computers. Notice something? It didn't get significantly better... > > but what about a program changing my normal black mouse cursot to an > > ugly white one? It's a PDF viewer, nothing more! It doesn't switch to > > any other cursor shape (like Gimp: cross cursor for selection, paint > > can cursor, brush cursor and so on). >=20 > Perhaps who decided it should change has got lots of black PDFs and > needs this to indicate that the PDF viewer has the focus. I'll ask Adobe if their developers open so many black PDFs. :-) > It's like the retards who are sending HTML and think it's an email, [...] There are lots of real companies that you can pay for designing you "HTML e-mails", usually for presenting ads and tracking the users. > [...] or > web pages trying to use their own fonts as if the idiot designing the > page had any idea what it might look like on my screen and what fonts I > like and which ones not. Who do they think they are? They are designers and developers. Some of them even have a few typography skills. They assume the web as a pixel-perfect medium, and they design for it as if it was a brochure or billboard ad. Only a narrow subset of devices will display the web page the same way as the designer sees and intends it. But as long as he can present something in the meeting that pleases the PHB, his job is safe. For now. :-) The Opera web browser has a handy button I call "Blatt / M=E4nnchen" (paper / man) where you can switch from what the designers coded in HTML and CSS to _nothing_ (browser defaults). This button makes a lot of web pages readable! > >> >> >> But when you use the trackball with your left hand, [...] > >> >> > > >> >> > That's entirely wrong. You don't use a trackball because it > >> >> > does not exist. Everyone uses a mouse (old people) or taps on > >> >> > the screen (young people). ;-) > >> >>=20 > >> >> Dunno, I've already been way ahead of those tiny tap-screens 35 yea= rs > >> >> ago when I used an old black-and-white TV as a display for my compu= ter. > >> >> I could see everything on it, and I could even program the computer > >> >> which made it rather useful, and, imagine that, without being spied= upon > >> >> and without being controlled by anyone else. So I don't understand= how > >> >> anyone can put up with the useless crap you have to tap on while you > >> >> can't see anything and achieve nothing. > >> > > >> > That's totally intended. :-) > >>=20 > >> That doesn't mean people have to put with it. > > > > People have learned to accept it. >=20 > It's only an aquired stupidity --- which they are planning to spend EUR > 5 billion on to make more people more stupid. >=20 > That you can't protect anyone against their own stupidity doesn't mean > you should support it, unless you're a big meanie. In my opinion, you can try to help those who want to escape the vicious cycle of stupidity and consumption, but it will work only in very few cases, I fear... > > [...] > >> >> Hallowed are the like buttons! Who presses the greatest number of = them > >> >> will be rewarded with the most friends of them all! > >> > > >> > I prefer the dislike buttons, I'd be tempted to click on _those_ > >> > rather than the Facebook spy machine's ones. :-) > >>=20 > >> The problem is always that there are no such buttons. Think of > >> elections, too ... > > > > Elections miss a "none of those", which is problematic especially > > in Germany where shit is offered in different tastes; interestingly, > > if I remember correctly, India (!) has a "none of those" option... >=20 > That isn't enough. The only votes possible should be against someone or > something, and what- or whoever has the least votes against it or them > wins. This is something I have in mind for decades: Imagine a ballot where you can only "unvote". You select the parties or candidates that you feel won't be good for the job. At a certain "aversion rate", a party has to be dissolved because it has no backing in the society - because voters have shown (!) the opposite. Combine this with personal (!) responsibility where it makes sense, and you will see that only those who _can_ do a certain job will be elected into that job. > >> >> But I haven't figured out how to make it so that libreoffice instea= d of > >> >> gedit is the default program to open spreadsheets attached to > >> >> emails. > >> > > >> > Right-click on attachment, select "Open with", enter the command > >> > needed for this file type, and it will be saved. > >>=20 > >> It saves only the command and not when to use it. That is way too > >> complicated for the users because they need not only to remember to pi= ck > >> it but also which one. > > > > I have learned to live with it, but I find it annoying, too. >=20 > Hm, that's really bad. Maybe I should make a feature request. Do that. It would be a good feature, because the action "double- click on attachment" currently does nothing, whereas the action "open with" can be selected from the context menu if needed, just like "save" or "save all". > >> [...] > >> Why can't there be a button at the attachment I can click on to open > >> the attachment with the program I once, and only once, picked for it? > > > > This is the concept of the common file associations in file > > managers. Sylpheed could pick that idea up. >=20 > File managers don't have a button like that. Not a button, but if you double-click on a file icon, the file will be opened with the associated program; if no such program is defined, a dialog will request one, with the option to make the choice permanent. > >> Why do I even have to "open" the attachment rather than Sylpheed > >> displaying it inline like it does with images? Libreoffice is open > >> source ... > > > > Because that's problematic. Inline image viewer - yes, not > > that complicated. PDF renderer? More complicated. HTML renderer, > > with CSS and JS? Very complicated, better embed a browser > > session. Office documents? With macros? Oh, _very_ dangerous. > > MP3 files? A player would have to be mebedded. There are just > > too many possibilities and no one size fits all eierlegende > > Wollmilchsau mit Goldf=FC=DFen und Glockenspiel. :-) >=20 > Then why is the HTML junk optionally displayed? That isn't an email and > nothing I would want to see. Sylpheed does not render HTML. In a case where the email contains additional HTML, it's presented as an attachment. If you click on it, it looks the same like the text version because (as I said) HTML will not be rendered. If _only_ HTML is present (which violates the standard), it will be displayed like text. Replying will _always_ use text, as intended. > >> > For example, I have two different commands for PDF attachments - > >> > simply because I sometimes need program A, sometimes program B, > >> > depending on the PDF file. > >>=20 > >> Users don't have that. > > > > Exactly. That's why Thunderbird does a better job in this case. > > It "just works". Have a PDF attachment - doubleclick - system's > > PDF viewer opens it. >=20 > Where do you live? It doesn't work that way, especially not "just". After installation of the required programs (!), at least on "Windows" it tends to work that way. On the Linux desktop, xdg-open, using MIME types, is the preferred way of doing things, according to the X Desktop Group. So it should apply to FreeBSD as well, but not all desktops and of course not all programs seem to support it. This, in my opinion, is because all the desktops do so many things differently that a consensus is hard to reach. --=20 Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Aug 10 16:14:08 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E229BFE64 for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2019 16:14:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lee@adminart.net) Received: from mo6-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de (mo6-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de [IPv6:2a01:238:20a:202:5300::12]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "*.smtp.rzone.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 465Rxq066Qz3PDN for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2019 16:14:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lee@adminart.net) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1565453643; s=strato-dkim-0002; d=adminart.net; h=References:Message-ID:Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From: X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH:From:Subject:Sender; bh=/5iFbXfmfQX7X7cLNk8EPxpFhmuKjLEQg+61iS0K4Uc=; b=Ebcf3HjJtWbePo5o+TXL5AJNUavqe1/ZOeuK5o5lU6Gb4E3yMTdMk8z+sml8VeUn6t tFMkyYOvCjEpCSt40tm865U7tNx+C9bo2w+O4nWOFfYBKVnxVhtCoKRoQe8kYx9fNduF 21QhxJhWPiAddBRBDyr+GXcpluv5AZ1hDnOzh+SrRWTuFLo2PZl2lPMEOeDTaFPAwDZk yfCrlVTdVw1RPLgobvS2+9g4oGbIwCZaZXSol9bSqkkWXEMXU+og2MbNrW1NXBn0CzjP jZdsS4ylEcv/V2/tJc29p64ml8WCVTwD4qukUXbTUGMupQZeB5hpyut/7ufdA1hBo1rS fKXQ== X-RZG-AUTH: ":O2kGeEG7b/pS1FS4THaxjVF9w0vVgfQ9xGcjwO5WMRo5c+h5ceMqQWZ3yrBp+ARdaXvxIDf7nlw=" X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Received: from himinbjorg.adminart.net by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 44.24 DYNA|AUTH) with ESMTPSA id e0059dv7AGE3y8U (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (curve secp521r1 with 521 ECDH bits, eq. 15360 bits RSA)) (Client did not present a certificate); Sat, 10 Aug 2019 18:14:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from toy.adminart.net ([192.168.3.55]) by himinbjorg.adminart.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hwU0I-0000Y1-EQ; Sat, 10 Aug 2019 18:14:02 +0200 Received: from lee by toy.adminart.net with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hwU0I-0000uT-Cl; Sat, 10 Aug 2019 18:14:02 +0200 From: hw To: Korolev Sergey Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, Graham Perrin Subject: Re: kill -9 does nothing In-Reply-To: <05B96F5A-2141-460E-B9F1-7BC4A7854B4A@febras.net> (Korolev Sergey's message of "Sat, 10 Aug 2019 08:53:11 +1000") Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 18:11:00 +0200 Organization: my virtual residence Message-ID: <87zhkh80h7.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <20190808180557.abbdd74fcdb74806aed1fd98@gc-24.de> <87o90yxy99.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <05B96F5A-2141-460E-B9F1-7BC4A7854B4A@febras.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 465Rxq066Qz3PDN X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=adminart.net header.s=strato-dkim-0002 header.b=Ebcf3HjJ; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of lee@adminart.net has no SPF policy when checking 2a01:238:20a:202:5300::12) smtp.mailfrom=lee@adminart.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.12 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[adminart.net:s=strato-dkim-0002]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[adminart.net]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[adminart.net:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.25)[-0.251,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[hw@adminart.net,lee@adminart.net]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[2.1.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.3.5.2.0.2.0.a.0.2.0.8.3.2.0.1.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6724, ipnet:2a01:238::/32, country:DE]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[hw@adminart.net,lee@adminart.net]; IP_SCORE(-0.77)[ipnet: 2a01:238::/32(-3.39), asn: 6724(-0.46), country: DE(-0.01)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 16:14:08 -0000 Korolev Sergey writes: > I don't think this is an NFS problem. I had got the same problem with > Apache + ZFS combination (but it was an old FreeBSD version like 7-8, > I don't remember). The main point is that the process hangs in iowait > state, which it never will exit from. The only solution is hard > reboot. The reason of that is rather more complicated, than just "NFS > is bad", or "Apache is bad". First I would need to establish whether it actually was a deadlock or desirable behaviour which is to ensure that data doesn't get lost. It could also have been an incompatibility between different implementations, or even versions, of NFS. > This is an Open Source, and you could always help with a patch, > extensive debug info to clarify the bug, etc, so any help will be > appreciated. I know how that goes: My help is so appreciated that reported bugs are either being ignored or met with a refusal to fix them, and provided patches that do fix the bug are also being ignored. Same goes for feature requests. Help is _not_ appreciated, that much is obvious. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Aug 10 16:14:08 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DBC3BFE62 for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2019 16:14:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lee@adminart.net) Received: from mo6-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de (mo6-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de [IPv6:2a01:238:20a:202:5300::10]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "*.smtp.rzone.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 465Rxp75BLz3PDM for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2019 16:14:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lee@adminart.net) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1565453643; s=strato-dkim-0002; d=adminart.net; h=References:Message-ID:Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From: X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH:From:Subject:Sender; bh=JTD1eMqUq6wkuBdTbZVnSIoTJ9xEch9pCe9MqcRa5U4=; b=dWSmMK7vw8hk4EWqMHdv66EffKP4byqTwVQ+H2z1u0Vm6JXSxLHHDybe+o3tMe5h5p XVuESmyLJG84ThI2+kOmAVrAzAbbYYIqiPjOJePSAbZyv8QKzmwbn4TD+aNh6kVouofT 3rFI8+24p+VaSHd6MUqgAK+Bgh4h6yyCS3O7xjM2ALZDNkuck0JTxkUh/4WU5CWRG64M Vi5jNjBxONehU2Me3au+p3cun59rGD/siwiDuTCvYKT/to33W6A0nWlItNkM1nNcI7eh f2lT1yvWIOLDxc6dMEK1UPYa1ED5Z5kmubta+JTqOEH+LjUyvjAl+7r6FFq5sjqDQ2Sc 6Rfg== X-RZG-AUTH: ":O2kGeEG7b/pS1FS4THaxjVF9w0vVgfQ9xGcjwO5WMRo5c+h5ceMqQWZ3yrBp+ARdaXvxIDf7nlw=" X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Received: from himinbjorg.adminart.net by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 44.24 DYNA|AUTH) with ESMTPSA id e0059dv7AGE2y8T (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (curve secp521r1 with 521 ECDH bits, eq. 15360 bits RSA)) (Client did not present a certificate); Sat, 10 Aug 2019 18:14:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from toy.adminart.net ([192.168.3.55]) by himinbjorg.adminart.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hwU0I-0000Xx-CE; Sat, 10 Aug 2019 18:14:02 +0200 Received: from lee by toy.adminart.net with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hwU0I-0000uO-A6; Sat, 10 Aug 2019 18:14:02 +0200 From: hw To: Polytropon Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: thunderbird in German? In-Reply-To: <20190810133516.3254f6e5.freebsd@edvax.de> (Polytropon's message of "Sat, 10 Aug 2019 13:35:16 +0200") Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 17:56:47 +0200 Organization: my virtual residence Message-ID: <874l2p9fpc.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <87o91bw4mx.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190731012754.3783a859.freebsd@edvax.de> <878ssc5v3x.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190802053434.6babd0d0.freebsd@edvax.de> <87y30b8h0v.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190803042205.550f5903.freebsd@edvax.de> <87pnllbxp7.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190805070522.be1fb873.freebsd@edvax.de> <87sgqdq0nw.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190809133419.3de9e65f.freebsd@edvax.de> <87pnlevzbb.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190810133516.3254f6e5.freebsd@edvax.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 465Rxp75BLz3PDM X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=adminart.net header.s=strato-dkim-0002 header.b=dWSmMK7v; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of lee@adminart.net has no SPF policy when checking 2a01:238:20a:202:5300::10) smtp.mailfrom=lee@adminart.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.24 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[adminart.net:s=strato-dkim-0002]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.995,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[adminart.net]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[adminart.net:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.38)[-0.383,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[hw@adminart.net,lee@adminart.net]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[0.1.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.3.5.2.0.2.0.a.0.2.0.8.3.2.0.1.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6724, ipnet:2a01:238::/32, country:DE]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[hw@adminart.net,lee@adminart.net]; IP_SCORE(-0.77)[ipnet: 2a01:238::/32(-3.37), asn: 6724(-0.46), country: DE(-0.01)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 16:14:08 -0000 Polytropon writes: > On Fri, 09 Aug 2019 22:50:00 +0200, hw wrote: >> Polytropon writes: >>=20 >> > On Wed, 07 Aug 2019 02:28:19 +0200, hw wrote: >> >> Polytropon writes: >> >>=20 >> >> > On Sun, 04 Aug 2019 02:07:00 +0200, hw wrote: >> >> >> Polytropon writes: >> >> >>=20 >> >> >> > On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 22:10:56 +0200, hw wrote: >> >> >> >> Polytropon writes: >> >> >> >>=20 >> >> >> >> > On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 01:22:42 +0200, hw wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Polytropon writes: >> >> >> >> >>=20 >> >> >> >> [...] >> >> >> > While it has been good practice for decades to use -Wall and its >> >> >> > equivalents, it doesn't seem to be important anymore. Compile t= ime >> >> >> > errors and warnings are irrelevant just as runtime warnings and >> >> >> > errors. >> >> >>=20 >> >> >> My impression is that software is now generally much more stable t= han it >> >> >> used to be. I don't know why, perhaps better tools became availab= le. >> >> > >> >> > Yes, program stability has improved, especially for web browsers. >> >> > But it's more than fair to acknowledge that the complexity of a >> >> > web browser is comparable to the complexity of a whole operating >> >> > system. >> >>=20 >> >> Web browsers are evil. >> > >> > A neccessary one, it seems... >>=20 >> It's not necessary; only the functionality needs to be kept within >> reasonable limits. > > Are there limits? If yes, where? > > You can see exaggeration regarding limits in some web pages: > They want to provide functions the web browser already delivers, > like bookmarking, printing, fonts & sizes, and the "back button" > of course. Is this needed? Probably not. Is it done? Of course. Is it reasonable for web browsers to turn into front ends for so-called web applications and into programs that can do virtually everything, like even display images, play videos and download files? With a couple tabs open, Firefox occupies 5GB of RAM and creates significant CPU load all for nothting because I'm currently writing an email and am not using it. This is not reasonable but ridiculous. Why doesn't at least Ctrl+z work? The purpose of a web browser is to make information accessible by displaying text which may contain references to other text that can be followed. That's all, and it's all I'm interested in when it comes to a web browser. I would consider that a reasonable limit. For other things like displaying images, playing videos, managing downloads, providing a front end for web applications and whatever else is useful, there should be other programs that may be much better at what they are doing. > [...] >> >> I don't know. Did Gimp crash or something? >> > >> > No, it works as intended, no problems. Just those messages. >>=20 >> Maybe then there isn't a problem --- and/or it means that Gimp handles >> broken files gracefully. > > But the error message isn't any helpful! That goes for a lot of, if not most or all, error messages. "Press any key to continue" is basically an error message. What does it tell you? There is no "any key" on my keyboard and the mouse buttons have no effect, so what am I supposed to do? Why can the computer not continue --- whatever that means --- all by itself? After all, that's what I have it for, isn't it? > What does "(gimp:3022): GLib-WARNING **: goption.c:2132: ignoring > no-arg, optional-arg or filename flags (8) on option of type 0" want > to tell me? What have I done wrong, what should I do instead? Or about > what does the program want to inform me? I have no idea... in my > opinion, those messages belong into a "debugging enabled" mode. You still wouldn't know what they are supposed to tell you. Why doesn't your car give you an error message but only turns on a warning light? If you knew what's wrong with it, you might easily be able to fix. Live could be a lot easier if people were more reasonable and would give up insisting on making themselves helpless. Instead, they have a bad need to celebreate unreasonability (or: the unreasonable) and to encumber themselves with it. Maybe it's a desease just like religiousness. OTOH, what is the programmer supposed to do when creating an error message? Users nowadays are incapable of reading anything, especially error messages, and they are way too incompetent to understand error messages anyway. Omitting all error messages or changing them to only say "error" is a bad idea because that makes it so that the programmer can't figure out what went wrong and hence can't fix it. Providing error messages leads to users complaining about getting elaborate error messages (and that they don't understand them) in some cases and questions about something in others where the error message didn't sufficiently elaborate. Denying an operation when the right thing to do would be to provide an error message so that a problem affecting the operation can be fixed before the operation is performed is not always an option, either. Providing error messages that allow the programmer to fix a problem only in debugging mode isn't a good option because the error will occur while the debugging mode is disabled, and the user encountering the error does not know how to reproduce it because they never know what they are doing anyway, so the problem can't be fixed even assuming that the user would tell the programmer about it, which they usually don't. Even when there are no bugs in the software, users still make mistakes or suddenly want to do things in a different way, and error messages can be required. Do you have a good solution for this? >> > Maybe I should decorate my programs with such warnings, too? ;-) >>=20 >> As long as they work gracefully even under adverse conditions, nobody >> would mind. > > ***warning***critical***: program: File foo.txt [0], index 4. > Yes, this definitely helps. ;-) Yes, it does because you can fix the problem or discover that there is no problem or find out that you need to modify your program or that the user needs to be educated or that you can remove the message or do whatever. You wouldn't know without. >> >> I don't want all the windows to look the same, that's ugly and boring, >> >> and some need to be handled differently than others for things to be >> >> usable. >> > >> > Yes, because even though programs have common ways for inter- >> > action (the known GUI elements), they serve different purposes >> > and therefore it's _significant_ to provide an interaction that >> > matches the task you want to perform with the program. >>=20 >> That doesn't mean everything has to look the same and needs to be >> boring. > > If you compare web pages, they strangely "all" look the same, > more or less, That's because you're displaying them all using the same web browser. > and most of them are boring. You can always look at other web pages. > "Flat design" which is currently modern requires lots of screen real > estate, to provide what could fit nicely on a 80x25 text screen... ;-) Yeah that really sucks. Most web pages look messed up because I have the web browser enforce a minimum font size such that I am able to read the texts on web pages. See "reasonable limits" above ... >> > Example (seen a few days ago): An accounting program, data entry: >> > You need to click on every input field in order to enter the >> > data with the beyboard. >>=20 >> That sucks. >>=20 >> > Some fields have a button where you can open a "calculator-like" >> > screen keyboard for numbers. But for letters, there's none. You cannot >> > use TAB or cursor keys or ENTER to advance fields. Can you imagine how >> > annoying it must be to enter pages and pages of information to that >> > stupid program? Oh - and you cannot feed external data... >>=20 >> I would refuse to use such a crap. > > Not possible, because it's required by regulations that you > use _that_ program for the specific purpose, because only > _that_ program exists and is certified. Oh, and of course > you have to pay for the privilege to use it. It also does > not remember your 4-part access credentials, you need to > type them in for every session. I'd still refuse to use it. >> >> > A program's job is _not_ to do what the window manager does. A prog= ram >> >> > can request to be handled in a different way, for exaple, without >> >> > a window decoration (like XMMS MP3 player where it doesn't make sen= se, >> >> > or little utilities in the "system corner" like xconsole, xbiff, >> >> > xclock, xload, xcpufreq, etc.). But programs sometimes used their >> >> > own ugly white _mouse cursor_ for no reason! Using a specific >> >> > mouse cursor is normal for tools like Gimp, xfig, even LibreOffice. >> >> > But generic programs? Why? >> >>=20 >> >> Like emacs using a particular pointer to indicate that it is busy when >> >> configured to do so can make sense. If it couldn't do that, it would >> >> need to somehow tell the WM that it's busy and the WM would have to >> >> change the pointer on some or all windows --- and if it would be done >> >> like that rather than emacs changing the pointer, people would say the >> >> WM and emacs are bloated. Or are they, or is X11 bloated for allowing >> >> to change pointers? >> > >> > If the cursor changes for a good reason, it's acceptable, >>=20 >> Who is to decide what is a good reason and what isn't? > > A good question. Common sense, logic, established standards and > generally accepted procedures should be applied, but of course > not with a stupid strictness that stops developers from creating > new and good features. Isn't that what has happened? >> I have spent so much time waiting on computers that I don't want a >> pointer or anything to change to an icon which indicates that the >> computer is busy with something. I want that something done and not a >> busy computer. Even that emacs is single threaded is very annoying at >> times ... > > Computers are fast and powerful, but programs consume more > resources. The quotient > > resources provided by computer > ------------------------------ =3D const. > resources consumed by program > > seems to apply. No, it doesn't. I'm waiting more because of awfully low internet bandwidth than anything else. Fortunately, we can finally have computers that do not have us wait on them more than anything else. > Computers get faster, programs get more bloated, result of "speed of Bad programming is always an issue. > use" stays the same. Sure, you cannot say that everywhere, for > example, media encoders are much more pleasant to use than 10 or 15 > years ago, but just have a look at the load times of "modern" web > pages. Compare that to "old" web pages on old computers. Notice > something? It didn't get significantly better... Do you have an example? Much of what contributes to how long it takes to load --- and what about displaying it? --- a web page with some computer has nothing to do with the very page itself. >> > but what about a program changing my normal black mouse cursot to an >> > ugly white one? It's a PDF viewer, nothing more! It doesn't switch to >> > any other cursor shape (like Gimp: cross cursor for selection, paint >> > can cursor, brush cursor and so on). >>=20 >> Perhaps who decided it should change has got lots of black PDFs and >> needs this to indicate that the PDF viewer has the focus. > > I'll ask Adobe if their developers open so many black PDFs. :-) ok That Gimp changes the pointer is annoying. Yesterday I had to figure out where the pointer seems to be pointing at because Gimp had changed it and I could only guess where it might point at. Gimp doesn't need to change the pointer because I know which tool I have selected and the pointer doesn't tell me that anyway. I use text, not icons. Icons look all the same. Seriously, is there a way to turn that off? I would. >> It's like the retards who are sending HTML and think it's an email, [...] > > There are lots of real companies that you can pay for designing > you "HTML e-mails", usually for presenting ads and tracking the > users. They automatically go into my spam folder. If someone wants to pay someone to create emails like that, they should also pay me for the waste of my resources. Besides, advertising in public should be illegal. I don't want to be bothered by it, and it has nothing but bad effects. >> [...] or >> web pages trying to use their own fonts as if the idiot designing the >> page had any idea what it might look like on my screen and what fonts I >> like and which ones not. Who do they think they are? > > They are designers and developers. Some of them even have a few > typography skills. They assume the web as a pixel-perfect medium, > and they design for it as if it was a brochure or billboard ad. > Only a narrow subset of devices will display the web page the > same way as the designer sees and intends it. But as long as > he can present something in the meeting that pleases the PHB, > his job is safe. For now. :-) They need to realise that it is entirely up to the beholder how some HTML page is being rendered and that it is irrelevant what they think a font that looks good and is readable. > The Opera web browser has a handy button I call "Blatt / M=C3=A4nnchen" > (paper / man) where you can switch from what the designers coded > in HTML and CSS to _nothing_ (browser defaults). This button makes > a lot of web pages readable! Sounds like I should try it out. >> That you can't protect anyone against their own stupidity doesn't mean >> you should support it, unless you're a big meanie. > > In my opinion, you can try to help those who want to escape the > vicious cycle of stupidity and consumption, but it will work only > in very few cases, I fear... No, you can't. Try to help someone and you will be a looser. Even if someone is asking for help, they usually don't want any and will turn impolite, try to insult you and perhaps call you a troll. That doesn't have anything to do with stupidity, it's just the way it is. I think this used to be all different and am wondering what changed. > [...] >> > Elections miss a "none of those", which is problematic especially >> > in Germany where shit is offered in different tastes; interestingly, >> > if I remember correctly, India (!) has a "none of those" option... >>=20 >> That isn't enough. The only votes possible should be against someone or >> something, and what- or whoever has the least votes against it or them >> wins. > > This is something I have in mind for decades: Imagine a ballot > where you can only "unvote". You select the parties or candidates > that you feel won't be good for the job. At a certain "aversion > rate", a party has to be dissolved because it has no backing in > the society - because voters have shown (!) the opposite. Combine > this with personal (!) responsibility where it makes sense, and > you will see that only those who _can_ do a certain job will be > elected into that job. Maybe ... I wouldn't require parties to dissolve themselves and only cut their funding. And then, why shouldn't parties be illegal? What's the point of parties? Voters can never know "a party" as they could know a person, and why should a voter be requested or allowed to vote for or against anyone they do not know. Voters should be required to prove that they are sufficiently informed and reasonably capable of voting. >> >> >> But I haven't figured out how to make it so that libreoffice inste= ad of >> >> >> gedit is the default program to open spreadsheets attached to >> >> >> emails. >> >> > >> >> > Right-click on attachment, select "Open with", enter the command >> >> > needed for this file type, and it will be saved. >> >>=20 >> >> It saves only the command and not when to use it. That is way too >> >> complicated for the users because they need not only to remember to p= ick >> >> it but also which one. >> > >> > I have learned to live with it, but I find it annoying, too. >>=20 >> Hm, that's really bad. Maybe I should make a feature request. > > Do that. It would be a good feature, because the action "double- > click on attachment" currently does nothing, whereas the action > "open with" can be selected from the context menu if needed, > just like "save" or "save all". I doubt it would be considered. Why bother. >> >> [...] >> >> Why can't there be a button at the attachment I can click on to open >> >> the attachment with the program I once, and only once, picked for it? >> > >> > This is the concept of the common file associations in file >> > managers. Sylpheed could pick that idea up. >>=20 >> File managers don't have a button like that. > > Not a button, but if you double-click on a file icon, the file > will be opened with the associated program; if no such program > is defined, a dialog will request one, with the option to make > the choice permanent. Yes, they don't have a button like that. >> Then why is the HTML junk optionally displayed? That isn't an email and >> nothing I would want to see. > > Sylpheed does not render HTML. In a case where the email contains > additional HTML, it's presented as an attachment. If you click > on it, it looks the same like the text version because (as I said) > HTML will not be rendered. If _only_ HTML is present (which > violates the standard), it will be displayed like text. Replying > will _always_ use text, as intended. Ah I thought it would optionally be rendered. I like that it isn't. Who says it violates a standard when an email has attachments and no text, and which standard is that? That could be good to know. >> >> > For example, I have two different commands for PDF attachments - >> >> > simply because I sometimes need program A, sometimes program B, >> >> > depending on the PDF file. >> >>=20 >> >> Users don't have that. >> > >> > Exactly. That's why Thunderbird does a better job in this case. >> > It "just works". Have a PDF attachment - doubleclick - system's >> > PDF viewer opens it. >>=20 >> Where do you live? It doesn't work that way, especially not "just". > > After installation of the required programs (!), at least on > "Windows" it tends to work that way. No, it doesn't. If you install /one/ PDF viewer, you still have to tell others programs to use it. > On the Linux desktop, xdg-open, using MIME types, is the preferred way > of doing things, according to the X Desktop Group. But who is using that? > So it should apply to FreeBSD as well, but not all desktops and of > course not all programs seem to support it. This, in my opinion, is > because all the desktops do so many things differently that a > consensus is hard to reach. A consensus is hard to reach because humans have become particularly bad at working together. Perhaps they always were and only necessity forced them for otherwise they would have become extinct. Besides that, a lot of things are being done because they can be done, and someone likes something better than something else. I think giving choices is better than taking them away, and the so-called "desktop environments" are designed to take choices away. People can't be bothered to make choices. Only _if_ they realise they don't have any left _and_ suffer from something, they start trying to make them and things suddenly get nasty once there are enough of them. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Aug 10 17:26:24 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 566C9C1375 for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2019 17:26:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 465TYB6M9tz3xQB for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2019 17:26:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1565457983; x=1568049983; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=m4qNNVWcHmLpkjvlIeTqDwBITiIz73TNIX7HsxIFfpg=; b=Z3SWgdmxNcGkXVvwHDMiIP8Ln9nqWJnlJdZ5nafNEayAP0XB5VcHS3TyZVvS/cJgwULJg4C6SSSJ3QB7zBR6rK1NlMwMTX356Udi74JnD9oLKm0ICt+4uLRVjs3X2kK8JhzwKDWq4+b1D5b9BzcLzxk9G6H+nkjpAp89l9cvEf0= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi4xYjcwMDAwMDI1YTBlNjUuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r3.h.in.socketlabs.com (r3.h.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.180.13]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sat, 10 Aug 2019 13:26:09 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r3.h.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sat, 10 Aug 2019 13:26:09 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.91 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1hwV83-0008Uu-SX for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sat, 10 Aug 2019 18:26:07 +0100 Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 18:26:07 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: thunderbird in German? Message-Id: <20190810182607.208e49addf88b6238272fb50@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <874l2p9fpc.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <87o91bw4mx.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190731012754.3783a859.freebsd@edvax.de> <878ssc5v3x.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190802053434.6babd0d0.freebsd@edvax.de> <87y30b8h0v.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190803042205.550f5903.freebsd@edvax.de> <87pnllbxp7.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190805070522.be1fb873.freebsd@edvax.de> <87sgqdq0nw.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190809133419.3de9e65f.freebsd@edvax.de> <87pnlevzbb.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190810133516.3254f6e5.freebsd@edvax.de> <874l2p9fpc.fsf@toy.adminart.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 465TYB6M9tz3xQB X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=Z3SWgdmx; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.01 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.84)[-0.844,0]; FORGED_SENDER(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.991,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.981,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; FORGED_SENDER_VERP_SRS(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(-0.20)[ip: (-0.53), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(-0.23), asn: 7381(-0.17), country: US(-0.05)]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; ENVFROM_VERP(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 17:26:24 -0000 On Sat, 10 Aug 2019 17:56:47 +0200 hw wrote: > OTOH, what is the programmer supposed to do when creating an error > message? Users nowadays are incapable of reading anything, especially > error messages, The user gets "Oops something went wrong" and a button to "Send diagnostic information to $VENDOR", the grubby details go in the diagnostic return and are only seen by programmers. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Aug 10 23:01:03 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51FA5A82CF for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2019 23:01:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from clay.daniels.jr@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vs1-xe2a.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 465czL0nlLz4Jvx for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2019 23:01:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from clay.daniels.jr@gmail.com) Received: by mail-vs1-xe2a.google.com with SMTP id c7so60752vse.11 for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2019 16:01:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=uxXZR6tzaBgVzce93vTPtl+j7VoJSuG2oXu76aMqrjo=; b=DpRDZUZQe/Rm30JqwzVbRrSTDY96EaSdTea5ynnQjfbjS94t5+0fDUd/0hmI/e3SV3 SDCwtnlMUdEI6a+fFIJ8jr4ZRnJlGZqJWLILU3JGJO/KPwMJS6aNm0lhqP1AK5XZfvB2 ohMW+trWcWN4mZzV8QZSqjmbSBfuY22f7a+ZBZpmYaoetFqROHD0Wnh2HfwBLgAgd5Zf pcLS3x0QbicidC0yElsv/gTEBWbkI1qmoO3/myNxyUvL6NSImmpT7OUhx8uw/WcGM8uw BCxaKX+lEhpfJaVETx5b6hjHvxcO69DENxxTIxXHjVxRldkhEaTIFBKRv17SJUTc9HyO Dd4w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=uxXZR6tzaBgVzce93vTPtl+j7VoJSuG2oXu76aMqrjo=; b=tNMF4c+1GeyQwAnnDRAymcxR3mM/vNwOWvp7Y78zdYc1bLaclfh2iSiXFrAsYLC7qs 6Q0xokzKXumxqxnOOpV3wf6d6nVkKLyHw3SNXdcLitiu8QH1A2BxJpsTNFoFMA9+AvSg XUA66vjtIP4Zy4SsuLrwBPKOVcIX2Xg3Ezeoc1NLytzVICegsNXVl6FC++ItVkTzgvIM 0K8DKkhbfqatfE0+v/7kxzXv5rXBby+CYf2RIwKKCcrvyExJMpm3svJ04tE8KwkG+YvS PMZNyV5iv5WWUdaqR3YsGye5ktgidX51z9MKQvHvQfMDCK0NIhVSYQEkpxOb+ewwQESe 9GYA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUk+dWwBoTtemiI+PV9crLDl7xRgYq1PmpfgtDjU//KqkmYz6Hh 1gqIM81J/pyyjx7BqbggollJWmmN/mwA1Dxsyg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzvKO4R49YLUTOZmW7cqeWik9g6ykl5qFWeBI8n8ufFXfjupH9i90QEbazT9RXSLAzwzeBYkOC6rhLhXUpoaig= X-Received: by 2002:a67:8c02:: with SMTP id o2mr16449721vsd.167.1565478060620; Sat, 10 Aug 2019 16:01:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20190810083139.GA3606@c720-r342378> <0ce32b01-8fd1-211b-5ef4-43ffa2b843cc@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <0ce32b01-8fd1-211b-5ef4-43ffa2b843cc@gmail.com> From: "Clay Daniels Jr." Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 18:00:46 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: USB stick for msdosfs To: MJ Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 465czL0nlLz4Jvx X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=DpRDZUZQ; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of claydanielsjr@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2a as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=claydanielsjr@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.996,0]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-9.73), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-2.98), asn: 15169(-2.40), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[a.2.e.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 23:01:03 -0000 Good info there. Just remember that the "\" backslash character is an escape character. *fat16* A partition that contains a FAT16 filesystem. The scheme-specific type is "!6" for MBR. *fat32* A partition that contains a FAT32 filesystem. The scheme-specific type is "!11" for MBR. *fat32lba* A partition that contains a FAT32 (LBA) filesys- tem. The scheme-specific type is "!12" for MBR. On Sat, Aug 10, 2019 at 3:59 AM MJ wrote: > Hi, > The -t sets you partition type, the \!12 is the value. This, according > to gpart manual says it's a Fat32 LBA (whatever use that is). I think > it's a partition type used by Windows 95/98. > > The gpart man also lists a "plain" Fat32 with a type of !11, so try that > instead then newfs_msdos -F32 > > Why it's unwilling to format it? Perhaps it doesn't understand LBA > (Logical Block Addressing)? Frankly, LBA is useless for a tiny 1GB disk, > just use Fat32 (or even Fat16 given you've only got 1GB disk) > > > On 10/08/2019 6:31 pm, Matthias Apitz wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > I have a 1G (1 "marketing GB") USB stick and use normaly this procedure > > which I have stored in y small set of how-to docs: > > > > > > # gpart destroy -F da0 > > # gpart create -s mbr da0 > > # gpart add -t \!12 da0 > > # newfs_msdos -F32 /dev/da0s1 > > > > What does the '-t \!12' mean? And why in the case here newfs_msdos(8) > > is unwilling to format the partition: > > > > # gpart destroy -F da0 > > da0 destroyed > > # gpart create -s mbr da0 > > da0 created > > # gpart add -t \!12 da0 > > da0s1 added > > # newfs_msdos -F32 /dev/da0s1 > > newfs_msdos: 61408 clusters too few clusters for FAT32, need 65525 > > # gpart list da0 > > Geom name: da0 > > modified: false > > state: OK > > fwheads: 64 > > fwsectors: 32 > > last: 1966079 > > first: 32 > > entries: 4 > > scheme: MBR > > Providers: > > 1. Name: da0s1 > > Mediasize: 1006616576 (960M) > > Sectorsize: 512 > > Stripesize: 0 > > Stripeoffset: 16384 > > Mode: r0w0e0 > > efimedia: HD(1,MBR,00000000,0x20,0x1dffe0) > > rawtype: 12 > > length: 1006616576 > > offset: 16384 > > type: fat32lba > > index: 1 > > end: 1966079 > > start: 32 > > Consumers: > > 1. Name: da0 > > Mediasize: 1006632960 (960M) > > Sectorsize: 512 > > Mode: r0w0e0 > > > > It works with -F16: > > > > # newfs_msdos -F16 /dev/da0s1 > > /dev/da0s1: 1965504 sectors in 61422 FAT16 clusters (16384 bytes/cluster) > > BytesPerSec=512 SecPerClust=32 ResSectors=1 FATs=2 RootDirEnts=512 > Media=0xf0 FATsecs=240 SecPerTrack=32 Heads=64 HiddenSecs=0 > HugeSectors=1966048 > > > > Why not with -F32? Thanks > > > > matthias > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >