From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Jan 13 01:40:20 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7D0F1F1BE4; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 01:40:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from slw@zxy.spb.ru) Received: from zxy.spb.ru (zxy.spb.ru [195.70.199.98]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47wx9b39xKz3K9S; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 01:40:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from slw@zxy.spb.ru) Received: from slw by zxy.spb.ru with local (Exim 4.86 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1iqoiA-000478-H2; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 04:40:10 +0300 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 04:40:10 +0300 From: Slawa Olhovchenkov To: Ed Maste Cc: freebsd-arch , FreeBSD Ports Subject: Re: Retiring GNU objdump 2.17.50 Message-ID: <20200113014010.GF38096@zxy.spb.ru> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: slw@zxy.spb.ru X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on zxy.spb.ru); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47wx9b39xKz3K9S X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of slw@zxy.spb.ru has no SPF policy when checking 195.70.199.98) smtp.mailfrom=slw@zxy.spb.ru X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.61 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.04)[-0.036,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[zxy.spb.ru]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.09)[asn: 5495(0.43), country: RU(0.01)]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.66)[0.661,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:5495, ipnet:195.70.192.0/19, country:RU]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 01:40:21 -0000 On Thu, Jan 09, 2020 at 10:31:55AM -0500, Ed Maste wrote: > We currently install and use at most three tools from GNU binutils > 2.17.50, depending on target architecture: > > 1. as - assembler > 2. ld - linker > 3. objdump - diagnostic / information tool > > I hope to retire all use of these obsolete binutils before FreeBSD 13. > Here I'd like to discuss objdump. It is a diagnostic tool that > provides information about object files, binaries and libraries. It's > not required as a bootstrap tool (i.e., not needed to build FreeBSD > world or kernel). It is required to build a limited number of ports, > and is used by some developers. > > I have a tracking PR for GNU objdump's retirement open in PR 229046. > https://bugs.freebsd.org/229046. > > There are two ways we can proceed with its retirement: > > 1. Remove it without replacement. Ports that need objdump to build > will have to depend on the binutils package/port, and users who wish > to use it will have to install it. > > Related links for this path: > Ports exp-run: https://bugs.freebsd.org/212319 > Patch review: https://reviews.freebsd.org/D7338 > > 2. Install llvm-objdump in its place (perhaps via a symlink). > llvm-objdump is broadly compatible in both command-line argument > parsing and output format, but there are many small differences and > it's not a full drop-in replacement. > > Related links for this path: > Patch review: https://reviews.freebsd.org/D18307 > > I am interested in feedback on the preferred approach. Installing > llvm's objdump has the advantage that for most use cases everything > will "just work", but may also introduce subtle failures. ==== As long as pmcannotate relies on objdump(1) and pmcstat(8) to work, it will fail if one of them is not available. ==== From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Jan 13 15:02:31 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D2DA22736E; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 15:02:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-f181.google.com (mail-il1-f181.google.com [209.85.166.181]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47xGzB466tz4d6Q; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 15:02:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-f181.google.com with SMTP id c4so8406560ilo.7; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 07:02:30 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8+D7Ug+CFfGlhIdtNT17v/6u51+lkm48Or5eTCAzA9g=; b=Q6eEDMHaFaFX9tHtbU+fgOTyHiI7sF+ToBudRs/hERGoW+iAvPWAMCvVBZpQ9uH/cn t0kk6CNnUk8nUXmj1V3dqmpFsYUYrWalTR7Ir+ZsegZP6iY4NQt4glBuhPizPwnF6+qP N56sFPqng7y5KByKMkAJlZYbEjtpjeDJgDzMJ+NZje+Bi0wAaVMAxiHDmY/i0tMncNhX LJGC2ulDRfiywq8ZPfmZpT5jFxK+NS4YiLhnwxtg3eApcDqBYEi572cRHQ4AAK66geow uY7r8izFZTF2H4n0M/KZ75MhOvJbwkqMllTmJLPuPzDDK9ckxzLk8BnaPOBP58U7HPjg 4F9w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXRWGI0Q/QlSgvR8FgEdjgGWk8ZfEAy7qUthPJmYAss9MHvMBMg QjsR80tFEp/sgB5kBBT5UG3LZMHPugV0LIdUX87GXw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzr9mVIkmrDbtRer6q92+tzX2MPOFBanR4j83jn33plLu3dPVa+99bN7SmQ20Uckal6cd9X2C4k87RhYz4CNMM= X-Received: by 2002:a92:d982:: with SMTP id r2mr14497589iln.98.1578927749405; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 07:02:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200113014010.GF38096@zxy.spb.ru> In-Reply-To: <20200113014010.GF38096@zxy.spb.ru> From: Ed Maste Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 10:02:16 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Retiring GNU objdump 2.17.50 To: Slawa Olhovchenkov Cc: freebsd-arch , FreeBSD Ports Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47xGzB466tz4d6Q X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of carpeddiem@gmail.com designates 209.85.166.181 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=carpeddiem@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.48 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[181.166.85.209.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(-2.48)[ip: (-7.40), ipnet: 209.85.128.0/17(-3.08), asn: 15169(-1.84), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[emaste@freebsd.org,carpeddiem@gmail.com]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[181.166.85.209.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[emaste@freebsd.org,carpeddiem@gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 15:02:31 -0000 On Sun, 12 Jan 2020 at 20:40, Slawa Olhovchenkov wrote: > > As long as pmcannotate relies on objdump(1) and pmcstat(8) to > work, it > will fail if one of them is not available. Ah, we could have pmcannotate check for both llvm-objdump and objdump in $PATH. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Jan 13 16:13:31 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6A551E1A77 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 16:13:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47xJY734PXz3DbM for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 16:13:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 6956F1E1A74; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 16:13:31 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 690821E1A73; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 16:13:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from kib.kiev.ua (kib.kiev.ua [IPv6:2001:470:d5e7:1::1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47xJY656X6z3DbL; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 16:13:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from tom.home (kib@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kib.kiev.ua (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 00DGDMSj069310 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 13 Jan 2020 18:13:25 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 kib.kiev.ua 00DGDMSj069310 Received: (from kostik@localhost) by tom.home (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 00DGDMBm069309; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 18:13:22 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) X-Authentication-Warning: tom.home: kostik set sender to kostikbel@gmail.com using -f Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 18:13:22 +0200 From: Konstantin Belousov To: current@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Fast sigblock Message-ID: <20200113161322.GD2068@kib.kiev.ua> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED,FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD,FREEMAIL_FROM, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.3 (2019-12-06) on tom.home X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47xJY656X6z3DbL X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none); spf=softfail (mx1.freebsd.org: 2001:470:d5e7:1::1 is neither permitted nor denied by domain of kostikbel@gmail.com) smtp.mailfrom=kostikbel@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.00 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.997,0]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[gmail.com : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; R_SPF_SOFTFAIL(0.00)[~all]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-3.09), ipnet: 2001:470::/32(-4.66), asn: 6939(-3.57), country: US(-0.05)]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 16:13:31 -0000 https://reviews.freebsd.org/D12773 I intend to commit this in approximately week timeline. The overview of the feature is provided in the review summary above. Short story is, userspace can mask all maskable asynchronous signals with a single memory write, which allows to greatly speed up rtld for single-threaded processes. For small utilities like ls(1), the number of syscalls issued is cut by 1.5-2 times. I believe that a similar feature existed in Solaris, and I saw a mention of it added to DragonFlyBSD. This patch sit in my local repo for many years, I decided to commit it finally. See the following interesting comparision of the startup and runtime cost in term of syscalls https://drewdevault.com/2020/01/04/Slow.html Unpatched we are close to glibc, with the patch applied most of the syscalls issued are mmap(2)s from rtld private allocator and jemalloc(3). From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Jan 15 22:55:30 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA91C2210C0 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 22:55:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-qv1-xf2e.google.com (mail-qv1-xf2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47yjN05mvfz490J for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 22:55:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-qv1-xf2e.google.com with SMTP id t6so8200630qvs.5 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 14:55:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=mqLeaEPxbAZt9SrPMXSvvGUNG4X0GhQ8GDgNbum9ir4=; b=dfbG2cIrILwC6nEXlqBhRtUVC5rJDXRXY3k1GDWd4hNJSSIjXRteMr9eyNg7TDBaet yBhVziBDbQQCmptlSI9uKQwkhC7X6BdI1H7ZieSXkskAoxgSSQ0E+PPIc1rdU2UiIYOX nPqSTlmkMWsTDi65z044BBEBayAwhV0OlMZ24VisQxGd6SKL3xUCraL7RdARxT3rxKYV zLSNUUZp/s6uiQVMaud4niJpKT/yKqQA8fp+2M0g5O2VInhUDCS2xdIODKZFc1BY7zMy rnD6/Tay32q1VndKCUvYbvFaSnQp7cmU6drlKC6e3a/x3x1eY9WY82wcHgMw7Iy2krA5 SFYA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=mqLeaEPxbAZt9SrPMXSvvGUNG4X0GhQ8GDgNbum9ir4=; b=DvjHNtG0Aj1nuA/RNxWnD+WTab4A5z5NGo5C8QgM7ZwsEOUeQIqHiDwMnBKS9CozRG EJsv5nXay2K30wUNE0R7NfC1VSViobtUJqxoBboqshwymUHL6TEs8WQOuIhJmRCFt/li 4lQWTUUT4Zjt0tr4PeBJfk8MvA5NPLVWpj8pw1Q5QjlGhTocKdONXeeK1IEEBMgnNVAI iUWCW0l4CKF8/hnH/Yh+BjrPhDMvO5cJMECiAsqbNT3n2ZzWAPoJb1SOqze00pfMeBcO epke/plxHB1+hActhhtedNoSWvertgFy8su+rUl+ca4FxZEo17WzBes/obCTV2VgUfbB AfTw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWByDdhAHHeocGf2VmLk6PJT4286ouJTkUDEQVtqmYUUFLE5Hic YmsJy2TG2sRgWuBq4lhU5gsyK406EPViYw+Kb0CYpZxR X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyseamrsre0iqxBxogVpgYGLc+XbbYrQHRlCb/LIb112o1zQ4T8dylMdLky1BWoueXJWhKyZ56ZQqpPgxD/70c= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:1428:: with SMTP id o8mr25018083qvx.87.1579128922030; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 14:55:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202001150747.00F7lqiG071097@repo.freebsd.org> <6925a470-ccbe-1446-e55e-f0aa8b6e6387@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <6925a470-ccbe-1446-e55e-f0aa8b6e6387@FreeBSD.org> From: Warner Losh Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 15:55:11 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: svn commit: r356758 - in head/usr.sbin/bsdinstall: . scripts To: Pedro Giffuni , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47yjN05mvfz490J X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=dfbG2cIr; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wlosh@bsdimp.com has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2e) smtp.mailfrom=wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.54 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-arch@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bsdimp.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; IP_SCORE(-1.54)[ip: (-3.74), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-2.09), asn: 15169(-1.83), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 22:55:31 -0000 [ redirected to arch@ ] For the arch@ list: Recently ZFS was made the first (default) choice in bsdinstall instead of a UFS. A discussion started on the src lists, but belongs here. On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 3:02 PM Pedro Giffuni wrote: > On 15/01/2020 16:41, Ed Maste wrote: > > On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 at 16:10, Eugene Grosbein > wrote: > >> There are multiple scenarios there ZFS may be sub-optimal at least: > small i386 virtual guests > >> or 32-bit only hardware like AMD Geode, or big amd64 SSD-only systems > with bhyve and multiple guests > >> that need lots of memory and should not fight with ZFS for RAM etc. > We support those, but they shouldn't drive the defaults. It's super easy to just install UFS on those systems. For virtualizations like this, most of the time people use jails because it's more efficient on systems that are tight on memory, so I'm not sure it's a case that should drive the default decisions... > > That may well be the case, but our defaults should represent the > > configuration that's desirable to the largest set of users, and IMO > > that's ZFS in most cases today. > Agreed. ZFS vs UFS is still an install-time choice. > There is also the policy of not making copyleft code mandatory > (technically, CDDL is weak copyleft). > Nothing makes it mandatory. It's still optional for people that wish to avoid it. > If ZFS is disabled in the build, the installer should gracefully disable > it too. > True, but we're not talking about that issue. It's orthogonal, so let's not get distracted. > > It might be that we should default to UFS on i386 and ZFS on amd64? > It's not i386 vs amd64 that's the issue. It's the total amount of RAM. ZFS is perfectly happy with i386 installs with enough RAM. We'd catch most sub-optimal cases if we'd offer it only for systems with > ~2-4GB. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Jan 16 02:14:58 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8358F22568A for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 02:14:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-f42.google.com (mail-io1-f42.google.com [209.85.166.42]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47ynp95DTbz4K0P; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 02:14:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-f42.google.com with SMTP id k24so20036318ioc.4; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 18:14:57 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=UKxAVOefzOVe+8xHNI3TSyIS26z6BbwuLZoUQwi6vVc=; b=Kwt+PO4jYMYx0YwMGLxO9lurl2vkzCT3ANF6DMiHIpNBEGO3BTEsDpENMGR8yNxboT o5t/166mliwf233iaTleOYlbUJzQxqH5i8Bk52xbipjhLcothMazMMPL0X8hB3PeGJ0z SokOIdZrOGC6xboCypjRf1h3dtfSOcFEb8VkS08/DUrUJruA+yeFCHIlEM9SJ2zgkypd 8QHQ7aLSr6fvbqVkl/0JkzT+jnFJtEWCaVfVgcey89Pl+RaZn2IW33I6PihQt7C4oyXz 1Pr/vDjiXsmCr3a8V84GPuNaKUBswfUimtMeFpWsfvDO16/ZinfxLmVQn4ANCvy5Od6j pHIw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXe1NGfUMYV0Uk1JuiY8k99dZ5WswsD52BUnFY0NS9RZ9LUyRhb qJiez/LIjzF3VtkzCVKUcffAr3GEWM1RrWgYWjI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxyQUWwKOB2xAJwftwzpktp/dDc3fBpJ65fpfOGd7l7nYwnN+jC4gacDTSrDaC3JjupWOUYZzN18qcaAO4e1bc= X-Received: by 2002:a5e:aa12:: with SMTP id s18mr23010822ioe.182.1579140896289; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 18:14:56 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202001150747.00F7lqiG071097@repo.freebsd.org> <6925a470-ccbe-1446-e55e-f0aa8b6e6387@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: From: Ed Maste Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 21:14:44 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: svn commit: r356758 - in head/usr.sbin/bsdinstall: . scripts To: Warner Losh Cc: Pedro Giffuni , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47ynp95DTbz4K0P X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of carpeddiem@gmail.com designates 209.85.166.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=carpeddiem@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.10 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[42.166.85.209.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(-2.10)[ip: (-5.55), ipnet: 209.85.128.0/17(-3.08), asn: 15169(-1.83), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[emaste@freebsd.org,carpeddiem@gmail.com]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[42.166.85.209.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[emaste@freebsd.org,carpeddiem@gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 02:14:58 -0000 On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 at 17:55, Warner Losh wrote: > > It's not i386 vs amd64 that's the issue. It's the total amount of RAM. ZFS > is perfectly happy with i386 installs with enough RAM. We'd catch most > sub-optimal cases if we'd offer it only for systems with > ~2-4GB. Very good point, defaulting to UFS for <4GB and ZFS for >=4GB sounds decent to me. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Jan 16 03:32:20 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65D5C22785B for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 03:32:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cse.cem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ot1-f54.google.com (mail-ot1-f54.google.com [209.85.210.54]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47yqWS27Y5z4P1n; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 03:32:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cse.cem@gmail.com) Received: by mail-ot1-f54.google.com with SMTP id 66so18110810otd.9; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 19:32:20 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ypHWWW9ZvOfbevXbEw/iXrEDnO712hnVZg8pjoV2UII=; b=QcGvlgjaOgPbOD0Fv0UMDH4JIzq1vdsKITUcdmsNFI/eEdrIxUHNJYBMaTGZ3Y9Fi8 qZ3tnD4h2+a5BTd1ztzioZbnBdpmcIoy+bB9ZtarcRsix084xvevM2mxBg0cJngw+zRg nJ7nXeWdcHfj7mxhoVi2DqTT6IHJMzcw0+eb+YnyNgJH52eL1sqnct8qKdIjCzN8A/o9 P/HAgZ/2mfjg16c/ywTAFtCcbAUUgxVdGcTJgp4W9mALBGMktJ3nLuMJJ4FQyW9gS3vM c4iSVKt3GLkHbqN/1bY71jSehRmCw6CHlnxxqr5scY3xWM0PxPKiVLpAivzPkGD+K4Ii pyIQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX+271BUf63iKMSMhZhAnPxdqepuggCgzheuiUGCPCF8IWO8CFt Xw9+rhNQdo2rmGi77Z3aFhLdKUIy X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzhRrjAU1vE+ct0aOZboPjuccQmIvuP41U7Ks9JpT2kildD8z+0ss6Qg63bzbxQOCcD0mmsHg== X-Received: by 2002:a9d:6a47:: with SMTP id h7mr183157otn.244.1579145538770; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 19:32:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-f43.google.com (mail-ot1-f43.google.com. [209.85.210.43]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u18sm7301910otq.26.2020.01.15.19.32.18 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 15 Jan 2020 19:32:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-f43.google.com with SMTP id 59so18104800otp.12; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 19:32:18 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1116:: with SMTP id w22mr438273otq.216.1579145538443; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 19:32:18 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202001150747.00F7lqiG071097@repo.freebsd.org> <6925a470-ccbe-1446-e55e-f0aa8b6e6387@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: Reply-To: cem@freebsd.org From: Conrad Meyer Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 19:32:07 -0800 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: svn commit: r356758 - in head/usr.sbin/bsdinstall: . scripts To: Ed Maste Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47yqWS27Y5z4P1n X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 03:32:20 -0000 On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 6:15 PM Ed Maste wrote: > On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 at 17:55, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > It's not i386 vs amd64 that's the issue. It's the total amount of RAM. ZFS > > is perfectly happy with i386 installs with enough RAM. We'd catch most > > sub-optimal cases if we'd offer it only for systems with > ~2-4GB. > > Very good point, defaulting to UFS for <4GB and ZFS for >=4GB sounds > decent to me. I'd suggest UFS < 16 GB and ZFS >= 16 GB instead. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Jan 16 05:15:53 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29577229717 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 05:15:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from philip@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47yspx05S9z4T63; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 05:15:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from philip@freebsd.org) Received: from weatherwax.trouble.is (weatherwax.trouble.is [IPv6:2a00:1098:82:3a::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "weatherwax.trouble.is", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) (Authenticated sender: philip/mail) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C8CB21DD1D; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 05:15:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from philip@freebsd.org) Received: from rincewind.trouble.is (rincewind.trouble.is [95.216.22.234]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "rincewind.trouble.is", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by weatherwax.trouble.is (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47yspt65jKz1SZD; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 05:15:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: by rincewind.trouble.is (Postfix, authenticated sender philip) id 47yspp2HJXz4Jfj; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 05:15:45 +0000 (UTC) From: "Philip Paeps" To: "Conrad Meyer" Cc: "Ed Maste" , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, "Ben Woods" Subject: Re: svn commit: r356758 - in head/usr.sbin/bsdinstall: . scripts Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 15:15:40 +1000 X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.1r5676) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <202001150747.00F7lqiG071097@repo.freebsd.org> <6925a470-ccbe-1446-e55e-f0aa8b6e6387@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 05:15:53 -0000 On 2020-01-16 13:32:07 (+1000), Conrad Meyer wrote: > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 6:15 PM Ed Maste wrote: >> On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 at 17:55, Warner Losh wrote: >>> It's not i386 vs amd64 that's the issue. It's the total amount of >>> RAM. ZFS >>> is perfectly happy with i386 installs with enough RAM. We'd catch >>> most >>> sub-optimal cases if we'd offer it only for systems with > ~2-4GB. >> >> Very good point, defaulting to UFS for <4GB and ZFS for >=4GB sounds >> decent to me. I would support that. Ben: can you add a check for memory around the default selection? > I'd suggest UFS < 16 GB and ZFS >= 16 GB instead. 4GB is _plenty_ for ZFS. But I'd like mine purple with yellow spots please. :) Philip -- Philip Paeps Senior Reality Engineer Alternative Enterprises From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Jan 16 22:21:51 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD7141F823B for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 22:21:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from woodsb02@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vs1-xe36.google.com (mail-vs1-xe36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e36]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47zJZl4g4cz3DQl; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 22:21:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from woodsb02@gmail.com) Received: by mail-vs1-xe36.google.com with SMTP id p6so13695145vsj.11; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 14:21:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=pTnXxoN1c/xol8OMD/kdBFWEOdWQfn880FxaMwlCyr8=; b=hQurN1K9z/zBfiYeHZvzI6aGMj5xDCxgPjlSLScZvY63QBvf89kje4EnSBLRPdCB0b eNxlMn/lL+ycfxEC4ZzUc+DBaTpNj2VAD2TQXZ1en/CHBgS6A2cUcjr/3GfZWnR1TQbM n/ArvpGMopwu+EgE3LbbZ+vFPSNHctWeDBxT8CyU2OW4M4vK2Rpns3ZwM9t+Voyl12f0 UGhuHlDJIIKfeOq/h7XOp8PNB7Ha2k5SEUPJe5aqrIx2f8M6SSsZs51+tGm+1g1JtK7z oqLGDXBIxePSwEW2tfCOc0lSu73Vn2rntdjLvvbF7MI1jdFPcg1BNYgaNrAZnuF2RHQm jZ0A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=pTnXxoN1c/xol8OMD/kdBFWEOdWQfn880FxaMwlCyr8=; b=MiJibGnYuNqoYN9KDN/vIXezSgBJjp9MYoB53PWvy1RDOPh7LKkoAQfdlie8ZiNfxv FsDk/w+gZ0sgyWD1g+BrNf2dg1BBb+mT2RzxUi4TeXSqyxa2jIh3xm4uB5hO8ZQEbjAU ql7rEiu1MDO3r70avhwXTbQRU33MtbhefYHzrFGof73n9OaQAkapOKS9xdfRWXQz73i5 vUjyAgjBsboxStX/GfpTQ3IMzoyDY/fMaAgIwY8DOOnK4zzg0Vvw7z6bhPhezwdLrtoa Vnv9BWeQV+tm7bX4zH/GM7so7RpMqSQMzt9NtRdUegXJ+mESLfHXo+IRm59mNUUyXgED Y52A== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX8j74cWEshLa0ywn3vfCsSHXdS6QH6YLS11xvpQy9sDsRHfUQQ 1jbNZoBoQghJ34KGUcKN9gehuHegE6fuECNxHzpAOg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxrHNsTUZQJdNQpADWQJV0a5q3yF7Q3oT+aKFvzMMl82aOGokP5qGjfAcrimFyQgR4HDMZVU4JfWNCEr9QL8vM= X-Received: by 2002:a67:f412:: with SMTP id p18mr3030025vsn.207.1579213310270; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 14:21:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202001150747.00F7lqiG071097@repo.freebsd.org> <6925a470-ccbe-1446-e55e-f0aa8b6e6387@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: From: Ben Woods Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 08:21:39 +1000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: svn commit: r356758 - in head/usr.sbin/bsdinstall: . scripts To: Philip Paeps Cc: Ben Woods , Conrad Meyer , Ed Maste , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47zJZl4g4cz3DQl X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 22:21:51 -0000 On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 at 3:15 pm, Philip Paeps wrote: > On 2020-01-16 13:32:07 (+1000), Conrad Meyer wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 6:15 PM Ed Maste wrote: > > On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 at 17:55, Warner Losh wrote: > > Very good point, defaulting to UFS for <4GB and ZFS for >=4GB sounds > decent to me. > > I would support that. > > Ben: can you add a check for memory around the default selection? > As pointed out by dteske and koobs, I think having the bsdinstall menu order change depending on resources would lead to confusion and would not be aligned to POLA. My opinion is that presenting the most common option as the first option makes sense, but that users should still apply their brain and understand the merits of the options when making a selection. Perhaps we could simply include a message on that bsdinstall partitioning mode selection screen that UFS is recommended on systems with < 4 Gb RAM? Regards, Ben -- -- From: Benjamin Woods woodsb02@gmail.com From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 17 07:15:08 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6AC02249D0 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 07:15:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from woodsb02@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vs1-xe2d.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2d]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47zXQ33wmyz49Pj; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 07:15:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from woodsb02@gmail.com) Received: by mail-vs1-xe2d.google.com with SMTP id g15so14285433vsf.1; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 23:15:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Xb6vybv9NI48YQeouhG2N80a9lqnZjEokT8XTUBgeDU=; b=PzNTIMWMclt31fHSv0ts3iKalUEkQdaimiT2ZnaJccL6jRLXzGj30QgVKx5a6HsT1A hF/6kwSenYFhO+k9L7vg3TbPIGbfp+XHPUQQ78Ts79tEqka7HNZTCaOSRalhUAdy2oYH L6jvyJh13JTdDXqxiy5UnuCJ4UKJ2f+8ZSFq88txX6eCeU88xgg7WowxO0P9VS55aavi S3i4KR5KlGYMz+iSj8Ube4AJfg3bTaYbFFIsp85Q+JapcZzby0gJZUGth49fGyadzMmB S3EuPDPU+ivJErVHQ2Hh82c2WU8C+GgCD0nFs7grH3EsedStvBUNbEUOH1faxgwSNLxM +aHw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Xb6vybv9NI48YQeouhG2N80a9lqnZjEokT8XTUBgeDU=; b=nJgX3R9WJx/ecE95OEj2/edfQPVOvs9FLcPkU8ctCe+d72YTzyCx7csBrG6CcxxvQB MDiiWoy0Ucm6o5WiPX9JOBPWcF45Z14bOv6N3EZvscobjBeAohj3mZ6IycFiGpTRBg+b cTKUwdH6G9Ng4n09HL1qU1AEcUF3ck1UAmMorllPX6GuGpJ5r4grHDGKyEwupi1oqDCb vj9PNeW5avbIKpRcSjaNI3BRyvircOEzPd3mfXh3LIOKvSAcvOenf297lX4JfQ24nCag qt6F+rkDh/tfD1dLNs+Bz54pr8o3pGp/5kTphozNssn7ce1L6JPs4BprBP48fw97kbex mNug== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV4XXQMSB4HMexjXLjEkMkG1ZPN9dbEy2t5N7emPlI6M1A+7WNx VudWoEDD3mnG4PAoQemrpAPS9/4TlOSm+SzA7JR+/6lP X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzJeZw3pkPL0Vs7zbMy7OYsUeogPf/YgXrmEWddpHJW4PLSeB6dnH2GwXYRoJ1p94bryQaVTZHRpKE0lLXQ1bY= X-Received: by 2002:a67:eb07:: with SMTP id a7mr3773142vso.98.1579245306253; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 23:15:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202001150747.00F7lqiG071097@repo.freebsd.org> <6925a470-ccbe-1446-e55e-f0aa8b6e6387@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: From: Ben Woods Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 17:14:54 +1000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: svn commit: r356758 - in head/usr.sbin/bsdinstall: . scripts To: Philip Paeps Cc: Ben Woods , Conrad Meyer , Ed Maste , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47zXQ33wmyz49Pj X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=PzNTIMWM; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of woodsb02@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2d as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=woodsb02@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.00 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[3]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-9.58), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-2.09), asn: 15169(-1.83), country: US(-0.05)]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[d.2.e.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 07:15:08 -0000 On Fri, 17 Jan 2020 at 08:21, Ben Woods wrote: > Perhaps we could simply include a message on that bsdinstall partitioning > mode selection screen that UFS is recommended on systems with < 4 Gb RAM? > I have uploaded a diff for this here: https://reviews.freebsd.org/D23224 Please let me know your thoughts (comments in the phabricator review would be best). Regards, Ben -- From: Benjamin Woods woodsb02@gmail.com From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Jan 18 01:16:15 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97083221742 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 01:16:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mike@karels.net) Received: from mail.karels.net (mail.karels.net [216.160.39.52]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4800PT51xzz4Lfy; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 01:16:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mike@karels.net) Received: from mail.karels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.karels.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 00I1G705020955; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 19:16:07 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from mike@karels.net) Message-Id: <202001180116.00I1G705020955@mail.karels.net> To: Ben Woods cc: Philip Paeps , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, Conrad Meyer , Ed Maste , Ben Woods From: Mike Karels Reply-to: mike@karels.net Subject: Re: svn commit: r356758 - in head/usr.sbin/bsdinstall: . scripts In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 17 Jan 2020 17:14:54 +1000. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <20953.1579310167.1@mail.karels.net> Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 19:16:07 -0600 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4800PT51xzz4Lfy X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mike@karels.net designates 216.160.39.52 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mike@karels.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.40 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[mike@karels.net]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:216.160.39.52]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[karels.net]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-2.20)[ip: (-7.24), ipnet: 216.160.0.0/15(-3.64), asn: 209(-0.08), country: US(-0.05)]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:209, ipnet:216.160.0.0/15, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 01:16:15 -0000 > On Fri, 17 Jan 2020 at 08:21, Ben Woods wrote: > > Perhaps we could simply include a message on that bsdinstall partitioning > > mode selection screen that UFS is recommended on systems with < 4 Gb RAM? > > > I have uploaded a diff for this here: https://reviews.freebsd.org/D23224 > Please let me know your thoughts (comments in the phabricator review would > be best). I think this needs more discussion, preferably on this list. I am not convinced that systems with as little as 4 GB should use ZFS. Conventional wisdom on the FreeNAS mailing list says that 8 GB is required for ZFS, and FreeNAS no longer includes UFS as an option. Conrad suggested a cutoff of 16 GB; I am happier with 16 GB than 4 GB as a cutoff. Also, there was mention of auto-tuning for smaller systems; I don't think that has materialized yet. I'm not sure how plausible that is without knowing the workload. I use ZFS on a workstation/server with 64 GB that runs 4 bhyve guests that do things like buildworld. ZFS wants 63 GB for arc_max; needless to say, I have a tunable set to a much lower value. If tuning is required, it is unclear that ZFS is a good default. Mike From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Jan 18 07:13:17 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3580B22AC77 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 07:13:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shivankgarg98@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ed1-f53.google.com (mail-ed1-f53.google.com [209.85.208.53]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4808KS0cDRz4fl5 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 07:13:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shivankgarg98@gmail.com) Received: by mail-ed1-f53.google.com with SMTP id m8so24435337edi.13 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 23:13:15 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=G7M4mhAwj9sXRztEzQlJmQsEi/nGRVO4HbI85EOV0Jo=; b=oLvYl1hkVcxtTNMQmZLlZX29suzu/+ElWoDCGT9epZRv6rxXllsrF2yj9Td67pXf7y w4zeefL+a9ZUf4DqGNXrMarClofF6QHRXJyfdvrTz6pSzooXukxuQ5+mzIKhbSW+eThm YF/yt7MH007mSytpll/CIXPXCo/+IsIIvfJSOCBRB5ca9yUgqt6Knw9Smp3pfH4Mwat6 S1WHuSVsIXn7ojad/faZJziQiPLQxEX8WT+vhKa80W06SgcuHHDQ4c91TvCcCdQfjAqA AnIJX1wgGaaFMV3P0ddchOEnZ3iFt5BhdBK0e8mKbvSdKUlJHsoNqtFBunGDm2V8wv4W Id9g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVijajXBY3qZAJZ6WHlh4jV3pL4Vvxpq7JezRhmDRW8Vjsjfbb9 /Z+eWG4Ww8kE62++HKo2liSwE9f9Xhs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxhst81QCKblgjPaWF2gmEEd5gGIFM58GcJF2RzK9j3MVklV8PY24lLLXMirVarIhzy9nd7oA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:7806:: with SMTP id u6mr11566073ejm.200.1579331594255; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 23:13:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ed1-f47.google.com (mail-ed1-f47.google.com. [209.85.208.47]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q13sm1051506edn.2.2020.01.17.23.13.13 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 17 Jan 2020 23:13:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ed1-f47.google.com with SMTP id c26so24426222eds.8 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 23:13:13 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:2e47:: with SMTP id r7mr11373069eji.215.1579331593524; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 23:13:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Shivank Garg Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 12:43:02 +0530 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Porting FreeBSD to Z mainframes idea To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4808KS0cDRz4fl5 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of shivankgarg98@gmail.com designates 209.85.208.53 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=shivankgarg98@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.12 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-arch@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[53.208.85.209.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(-2.12)[ip: (-5.64), ipnet: 209.85.128.0/17(-3.07), asn: 15169(-1.83), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[shivank@freebsd.org,shivankgarg98@gmail.com]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freebsd.org]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[53.208.85.209.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[shivank@freebsd.org,shivankgarg98@gmail.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; TO_DOM_EQ_FROM_DOM(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 07:13:17 -0000 Hi! I wish to pursue this idea of porting FreeBSD to IBM Z mainframes. Currently, there are no BSD derivatives for Z mainframes, and I find the idea of porting FreeBSD to Z mainframe. There is a sponsored internship program called OpenMainFrame Mentorship. So, I thought to propose this project in this program. But I'm a beginner and have very little idea about the whole porting process and challenges faced during it. Someone on IRC suggested to port NetBSD first, as it is easier to port on different hardware platforms. I will be very thankful if you can give suggestions about this, and how much time will it take for a beginner? The mentorship program is for a span of 3-4 months. Also, If it's too difficult, can there be any doable goals in the porting process that I can propose for the program and I would continue the project even after the program is over. I personally feel the project has good potential, and It will be very helpful in my learning growth. PS - I'm a master's student with my research interest completely in OS area. Regards, Shivank Garg IIT Kanpur From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Jan 18 22:26:28 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF927230ACD for ; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 22:26:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from lax.lemis.com (www.lemis.com [45.32.70.18]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 480Xb76gnnz4WMQ; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 22:26:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from eureka.lemis.com (167-179-139-35.a7b38b.mel.nbn.aussiebb.net [167.179.139.35]) by lax.lemis.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB353280DC; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 22:26:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: by eureka.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id C6C23263595; Sun, 19 Jan 2020 09:26:19 +1100 (AEDT) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 09:26:19 +1100 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Shivank Garg Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to Z mainframes idea Message-ID: <20200118222619.GD67053@eureka.lemis.com> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="uxuisgdDHaNETlh8" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-3-5309-0418 Mobile: +61-490-494-038. Use only as instructed. WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 User-Agent: Mutt/1.6.1 (2016-04-27) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 480Xb76gnnz4WMQ X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of grog@lemis.com designates 45.32.70.18 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=grog@lemis.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.11 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a:www.lemis.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[FreeBSD.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-2.11)[ip: (-6.78), ipnet: 45.32.64.0/19(-1.96), asn: 20473(-1.75), country: US(-0.05)]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[grog@FreeBSD.org,grog@lemis.com]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:20473, ipnet:45.32.64.0/19, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[grog@FreeBSD.org,grog@lemis.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 22:26:29 -0000 --uxuisgdDHaNETlh8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Saturday, 18 January 2020 at 12:43:02 +0530, Shivank Garg wrote: > Hi! > I wish to pursue this idea of porting FreeBSD to IBM Z mainframes. > Currently, there are no BSD derivatives for Z mainframes, and I find the > idea of porting FreeBSD to Z mainframe. > > Someone on IRC suggested to port NetBSD first, as it is easier to port on > different hardware platforms. Agreed, at least at first sight. Have you discussed this on the NetBSD lists? > There is a sponsored internship program called OpenMainFrame > Mentorship. So, I thought to propose this project in this > program. But I'm a beginner and have very little idea about the > whole porting process and challenges faced during it. I will be > very thankful if you can give suggestions about this, and how much > time will it take for a beginner? The mentorship program is for a > span of 3-4 months. Is success in that time an important requirement? You may find it too complicated for the time frame. Help from somebody who has ported to a different platform would probably help. In the specific case of the Z series, you may have significant architectural issues to contend with: the Z series evolved from the 360/370, which didn't even have stacks. I don't know how different the Z series is, but it would be good to find out before you start. > Also, If it's too difficult, can there be any doable goals in the > porting process that I can propose for the program and I would > continue the project even after the program is over. I personally > feel the project has good potential, and It will be very helpful in > my learning growth. This is probably a better aim. I can't think of anything offhand. Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog@FreeBSD.org for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA --uxuisgdDHaNETlh8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iEYEARECAAYFAl4jhgsACgkQIubykFB6QiPWTACghsrTNy20DcWLKplxsG6UxU48 n/AAmwQ2y18JsHYCbuceioawypJzI2Y5 =jeHN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --uxuisgdDHaNETlh8--