From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Jan 19 14:22:11 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E05421FB273 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2020 14:22:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shivankgarg98@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ed1-f67.google.com (mail-ed1-f67.google.com [209.85.208.67]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 480xnv5fZlz4LYV; Sun, 19 Jan 2020 14:22:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shivankgarg98@gmail.com) Received: by mail-ed1-f67.google.com with SMTP id m8so26988851edi.13; Sun, 19 Jan 2020 06:22:11 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=QKS6EjJn+2ZJCTqHyh6jn6aK3unKx1kS2gMG6RCjmXU=; b=KVj8E6z3skmj0Fg0q8zItdT3Z2olYkJ14gDrB+yheqNgBxG1gu9S/4Lm8Rwg/0B/gR HFz/vaBAxdMwwNj7cQC7QJ2w8Jt6m11dIPugnz4acibVGX780a/FMWX4m9FVWGWw4f2d p81pTSx4OLBH19jqKGuyASJTJlRZCxBRQ6426imkBoWkDV9KT3lhK8i6SU5RpmAejjLv fdJrqUMokk/z14kaWWBPFwZ3aiAYev4KMHAO+e8ynxKzUPibaCxQagRumFVQeKamMO0V I/QWWJBeP3TLMRbBxx5PtR+iNyYcQN/MYWgYvgl80la0C5DFoww1B0kuycyA8UIwmc8I u+hQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWcVg+lNk4KTpPljNmd2mFVHpNLZsI9TIwxBKcHs0MJ0J3FQGOj hpK5J1bym2hpvrR/IRR5RcQCidN1jJM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwWp+P2Z0JDzZ/p/wV2tzl2pWSHZODxq/2Bsyk+1qOYRVwPTD6Z6uyhmcztm3XKovEHmQTimw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:c0f:: with SMTP id co15mr13754703edb.200.1579443729651; Sun, 19 Jan 2020 06:22:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ed1-f53.google.com (mail-ed1-f53.google.com. [209.85.208.53]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s19sm1188019edr.55.2020.01.19.06.22.09 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 19 Jan 2020 06:22:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ed1-f53.google.com with SMTP id c26so26979166eds.8; Sun, 19 Jan 2020 06:22:09 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:889:: with SMTP id e9mr13588293edy.313.1579443729123; Sun, 19 Jan 2020 06:22:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200118222619.GD67053@eureka.lemis.com> In-Reply-To: <20200118222619.GD67053@eureka.lemis.com> From: Shivank Garg Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 19:51:58 +0530 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to Z mainframes idea To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 480xnv5fZlz4LYV X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 14:22:11 -0000 Hi, On Sun, Jan 19, 2020, 3:56 AM Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > On Saturday, 18 January 2020 at 12:43:02 +0530, Shivank Garg wrote: > > Hi! > > I wish to pursue this idea of porting FreeBSD to IBM Z mainframes. > > Currently, there are no BSD derivatives for Z mainframes, and I find the > > idea of porting FreeBSD to Z mainframe. > > > > Someone on IRC suggested to port NetBSD first, as it is easier to port on > > different hardware platforms. > > Agreed, at least at first sight. Have you discussed this on the > NetBSD lists? > No. I haven't discussed this with them yet. > > > There is a sponsored internship program called OpenMainFrame > > Mentorship. So, I thought to propose this project in this > > program. But I'm a beginner and have very little idea about the > > whole porting process and challenges faced during it. I will be > > very thankful if you can give suggestions about this, and how much > > time will it take for a beginner? The mentorship program is for a > > span of 3-4 months. > > Is success in that time an important requirement? You may find it > too complicated for the time frame. Help from somebody who has ported > to a different platform would probably help. In the specific case of > the Z series, you may have significant architectural issues to contend > with: the Z series evolved from the 360/370, which didn't even have > stacks. I don't know how different the Z series is, but it would be > good to find out before you start. > I'll ask for help with the architecture from the mainframe community. Also, someone suggested taking help from bz@. > Also, If it's too difficult, can there be any doable goals in the > > porting process that I can propose for the program and I would > > continue the project even after the program is over. I personally > > feel the project has good potential, and It will be very helpful in > > my learning growth. > > This is probably a better aim. I can't think of anything offhand. > Yeah. I'll look for achievable milestones. Regards, Shivank From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Jan 23 00:07:12 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDE4D222DDA for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 00:07:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from woodsb02@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vs1-xe32.google.com (mail-vs1-xe32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e32]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4832dW6lsvz3Dhy; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 00:07:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from woodsb02@gmail.com) Received: by mail-vs1-xe32.google.com with SMTP id t12so602933vso.13; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 16:07:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=mTGssJu4JzdcRNSWAUamoTSjCrgepl/wRMhOiHTbmUo=; b=S89rpEoV3KCcmjMiF4K/HHThSWbaIPlI8U9Y2gPsDHBdnz+KNuI1v0rwx17IUXnE8F UE4G+GVWS1J/rnKdKj7y7ks5Krg3YCeTF0AoTM3OR+1lSxhFBfoiH26sL0pFINlu3om0 2X2imhLdixWWt8utjblUbb4D1loYg8ab+xQSCU3I3etyZAPshLhtwINBKlT0EcIV3Mu9 Oy4nxflE/+gCLNVgYq7Y3lHJppUokyJaan/zmRA/Dk5G3iwGOLECtTEGDSBsgrDvyUZt LkRlIqdu1hlSCbcO/1bf8oXTdIj5kB+uBujnv7Bn2iLsle9yQsHtQS1YXN7oDVYcVdHq h4UA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=mTGssJu4JzdcRNSWAUamoTSjCrgepl/wRMhOiHTbmUo=; b=sf9IhKQ+m0+Z4YJXkORkXG0OEll23ZZXjgfhwLFtJqR/7AWs4d4mw7xUJWG9zzvnRB zvX6U6bFqTsugJDi6oHVF0ng8teLpz94K2/WfXXbZVkbm6G3pGn1TFsO5F8yYMTjnWG1 7I9k+08R/zzI+EIjWAHaGhvxSPaBrDC5BXEzTm9mxVeUftg9vDvXuMeogKhJmJH0VKQh XQN8CaFUfYjQXZ1Zht8NEuc9tmczMAESo+LT6GHkuM3RHzGPQbRJBMi389J9dscyjlad tWEomuZMmYGRSyvs8yHdXGUiT/gkoqfmrubYsZjssQ95P8GNabs53eww7D/AeeOtvOS8 MLVQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWbqLurtEvf+5hWtmszlnOQB44DALX1y98Ih7DgH9dCHFZE+9dm xVU0K6fH44mpINey9iVmPzmt6aGCQ3unZn2k9qAoYvTf X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzrRGGrxIhPOr+uBuTesCS9MB+86mSMEZpZitEHmYR+yLAF+stUWD2pdK4KiQzpJhiW0appUbRWa+X6fGg5RKA= X-Received: by 2002:a67:f98e:: with SMTP id b14mr4476604vsq.53.1579738030794; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 16:07:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202001180116.00I1G705020955@mail.karels.net> In-Reply-To: <202001180116.00I1G705020955@mail.karels.net> From: Ben Woods Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 08:06:59 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: svn commit: r356758 - in head/usr.sbin/bsdinstall: . scripts To: mike@karels.net Cc: Philip Paeps , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, Conrad Meyer , Ed Maste X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4832dW6lsvz3Dhy X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=S89rpEoV; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of woodsb02@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::e32 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=woodsb02@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.00 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-9.49), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-2.07), asn: 15169(-1.82), country: US(-0.05)]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[3]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2.3.e.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 00:07:13 -0000 On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 at 09:16, Mike Karels wrote: > > On Fri, 17 Jan 2020 at 08:21, Ben Woods wrote: > > > > Perhaps we could simply include a message on that bsdinstall > partitioning > > > mode selection screen that UFS is recommended on systems with < 4 Gb > RAM? > > > > > > I have uploaded a diff for this here: https://reviews.freebsd.org/D23224 > > > Please let me know your thoughts (comments in the phabricator review > would > > be best). > > I think this needs more discussion, preferably on this list. I am not > convinced that systems with as little as 4 GB should use ZFS. Conventional > wisdom on the FreeNAS mailing list says that 8 GB is required for ZFS, > and FreeNAS no longer includes UFS as an option. Conrad suggested a > cutoff of 16 GB; I am happier with 16 GB than 4 GB as a cutoff. Also, > there was mention of auto-tuning for smaller systems; I don't think that > has materialized yet. I'm not sure how plausible that is without knowing > the workload. I use ZFS on a workstation/server with 64 GB that runs 4 > bhyve guests that do things like buildworld. ZFS wants 63 GB for arc_max; > needless to say, I have a tunable set to a much lower value. If tuning > is required, it is unclear that ZFS is a good default. > > Mike > Hi everyone, Before I commit phabricator review D23224, is there any final comments? Particularly on these 2 lines of help-text: msg_partitioning_zfs_help="ZFS is recommended if you have at least 4GB RAM" msg_partitioning_ufs_help="UFS is recommended if you have less than 4GB of RAM" There is some disagree about what these 2 recommendations should be. 4GB was recommended by: imp, emaste, philip, eugen, dteske 8GB was recommended by: mike 16GB was recommended by: cem The 4GB limit seems to have the best consensus, however there was some debate about whether ZFS is recommended on a system with 4GB, or only systems with MORE THAN 4GB. As for the ZFS auto-tuning, I see that as being a separate discussion (which could ultimately change this recommendation, but shouldn't prevent us from committing this help text now). Regards, Ben -- From: Benjamin Woods woodsb02@gmail.com From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Jan 23 02:07:12 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42DC4227FAE for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 02:07:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mike@karels.net) Received: from mail.karels.net (mail.karels.net [216.160.39.52]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4835Hz0JBTz3Nqb; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 02:07:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mike@karels.net) Received: from mail.karels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.karels.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 00N274xO042659; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 20:07:04 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from mike@karels.net) Message-Id: <202001230207.00N274xO042659@mail.karels.net> To: Ben Woods cc: Conrad Meyer , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, Ed Maste , Philip Paeps From: Mike Karels Reply-to: mike@karels.net Subject: Minimum memory for ZFS (was Re: svn commit: r356758 - in head/usr.sbin/bsdinstall: . scripts) In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 23 Jan 2020 08:06:59 +0800. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <42657.1579745224.1@mail.karels.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 20:07:04 -0600 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4835Hz0JBTz3Nqb X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mike@karels.net designates 216.160.39.52 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mike@karels.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.42 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[mike@karels.net]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:216.160.39.52]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[karels.net]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-2.22)[ip: (-7.28), ipnet: 216.160.0.0/15(-3.67), asn: 209(-0.11), country: US(-0.05)]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:209, ipnet:216.160.0.0/15, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 02:07:12 -0000 I took the liberty of changing the subject line to make it stand out a bit more. Ben wrote: > On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 at 09:16, Mike Karels wrote: > > > On Fri, 17 Jan 2020 at 08:21, Ben Woods wrote: > > > > > > Perhaps we could simply include a message on that bsdinstall > > partitioning > > > > mode selection screen that UFS is recommended on systems with < 4 = Gb > > RAM? > > > > > > > > > I have uploaded a diff for this here: https://reviews.freebsd.org/D2= 3224 > > > > > Please let me know your thoughts (comments in the phabricator review > > would > > > be best). > > > > I think this needs more discussion, preferably on this list. I am not > > convinced that systems with as little as 4 GB should use ZFS. Convent= ional > > wisdom on the FreeNAS mailing list says that 8 GB is required for ZFS, > > and FreeNAS no longer includes UFS as an option. Conrad suggested a > > cutoff of 16 GB; I am happier with 16 GB than 4 GB as a cutoff. Also, > > there was mention of auto-tuning for smaller systems; I don't think th= at > > has materialized yet. I'm not sure how plausible that is without know= ing > > the workload. I use ZFS on a workstation/server with 64 GB that runs = 4 > > bhyve guests that do things like buildworld. ZFS wants 63 GB for arc_= max; > > needless to say, I have a tunable set to a much lower value. If tunin= g > > is required, it is unclear that ZFS is a good default. > > > > Mike > > > Hi everyone, > Before I commit phabricator review D23224, is there any final comments? > Particularly on these 2 lines of help-text: > msg_partitioning_zfs_help=3D"ZFS is recommended if you have at least 4GB= RAM" > msg_partitioning_ufs_help=3D"UFS is recommended if you have less than 4G= B of > RAM" > There is some disagree about what these 2 recommendations should be. > 4GB was recommended by: imp, emaste, philip, eugen, dteske > 8GB was recommended by: mike > 16GB was recommended by: cem > The 4GB limit seems to have the best consensus, however there was some > debate about whether ZFS is recommended on a system with 4GB, or only > systems with MORE THAN 4GB. I don't remember what everyone else wrote, but IIRC, Devin said that if you use ZFS with 4 GB, you will soon end up with a dozen tunables set. That doesn't sound like a recommendation for 4 GB. > As for the ZFS auto-tuning, I see that as being a separate discussion > (which could ultimately change this recommendation, but shouldn't preven= t > us from committing this help text now). Agreed, but the lack of tuning should factor into the current recommendati= on. Mike > Regards, > Ben From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Jan 23 03:11:42 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E32E22A01F for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 03:11:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4836kP07mrz3xW6; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 03:11:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id 00N3BWhn027379; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 19:11:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id 00N3BVju027378; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 19:11:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <202001230311.00N3BVju027378@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Minimum memory for ZFS (was Re: svn commit: r356758 - in head/usr.sbin/bsdinstall: . scripts) In-Reply-To: <202001230207.00N274xO042659@mail.karels.net> To: mike@karels.net Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 19:11:31 -0800 (PST) CC: Ben Woods , Philip Paeps , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, Ed Maste , Conrad Meyer X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4836kP07mrz3xW6 X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net has no SPF policy when checking 69.59.192.140) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.63 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.03)[ip: (0.13), ipnet: 69.59.192.0/19(0.07), asn: 13868(0.02), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[dnsmgr.net]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.75)[0.746,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.95)[0.947,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:13868, ipnet:69.59.192.0/19, country:US]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[gmail.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 03:11:42 -0000 > I took the liberty of changing the subject line to make it stand out a > bit more. Thanks, good idea, I seem to have missed some of this thread. > Ben wrote: > > > On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 at 09:16, Mike Karels wrote: > > > > > On Fri, 17 Jan 2020 at 08:21, Ben Woods wrote: > > > > > > > > Perhaps we could simply include a message on that bsdinstall > > > partitioning > > > > > mode selection screen that UFS is recommended on systems with < 4 Gb > > > RAM? > > > > > > > > > > > > I have uploaded a diff for this here: https://reviews.freebsd.org/D23224 > > > > > > > Please let me know your thoughts (comments in the phabricator review > > > would > > > > be best). > > > > > > I think this needs more discussion, preferably on this list. I am not > > > convinced that systems with as little as 4 GB should use ZFS. Conventional > > > wisdom on the FreeNAS mailing list says that 8 GB is required for ZFS, > > > and FreeNAS no longer includes UFS as an option. Conrad suggested a > > > cutoff of 16 GB; I am happier with 16 GB than 4 GB as a cutoff. Also, > > > there was mention of auto-tuning for smaller systems; I don't think that > > > has materialized yet. I'm not sure how plausible that is without knowing > > > the workload. I use ZFS on a workstation/server with 64 GB that runs 4 > > > bhyve guests that do things like buildworld. ZFS wants 63 GB for arc_max; > > > needless to say, I have a tunable set to a much lower value. If tuning > > > is required, it is unclear that ZFS is a good default. > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > Hi everyone, > > > Before I commit phabricator review D23224, is there any final comments? > > > Particularly on these 2 lines of help-text: > > msg_partitioning_zfs_help="ZFS is recommended if you have at least 4GB RAM" > > msg_partitioning_ufs_help="UFS is recommended if you have less than 4GB of > > RAM" > > > There is some disagree about what these 2 recommendations should be. ZFS is recommended if you have read the ZFS memory tuning guide :-) I have run it in some pretty tiny memory configurations, with proper tunning including 32bit nodes with 512MB of memory and no other memory intense processes. > > 4GB was recommended by: imp, emaste, philip, eugen, dteske > > 8GB was recommended by: mike > > 16GB was recommended by: cem > > > The 4GB limit seems to have the best consensus, however there was some > > debate about whether ZFS is recommended on a system with 4GB, or only > > systems with MORE THAN 4GB. > > I don't remember what everyone else wrote, but IIRC, Devin said that if > you use ZFS with 4 GB, you will soon end up with a dozen tunables set. > That doesn't sound like a recommendation for 4 GB. >From my perspective ZFS is a great thing, BUTT in no case where I have it installed is it running with out of the box settings. In all cases I minimally tweak vfs.zfs.arc_max as the default for this leaves systems with a configuratoin that invariable runs into OOM issues. Until that issue is fixed for me it is a mistake to make ZFS default on any system, no matter how much memory it has. > > > As for the ZFS auto-tuning, I see that as being a separate discussion > > (which could ultimately change this recommendation, but shouldn't prevent > > us from committing this help text now). > > Agreed, but the lack of tuning should factor into the current recommendation. And I agree with Mike here, these tuning issues defanitly should affect our choices of default install recomendations. > Mike > > > Regards, > > Ben -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Jan 23 04:05:33 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AA7722AFF7 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:05:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from woodsb02@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vk1-xa35.google.com (mail-vk1-xa35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a35]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4837wX3n61z40r2 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:05:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from woodsb02@gmail.com) Received: by mail-vk1-xa35.google.com with SMTP id o187so617856vka.2 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 20:05:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Ae3EiHzqfa407O+0LPZ/+zeVEN/SZP6GT61ySZfEB8A=; b=Rltf6o1QjTr6sfbsoCwwI4EpJdMlcQCQAi1llQxg5rZBsAv4hRSUj108MtEEaSTZVH liqDg5YYM2D+YiJQpO8eyb1BGS3iMMJDOdiEOEEwITc2FxNEW86OfCxtB4aZIHClDV0p A8hImsNPf5WZg9Ur7/+lGertrYjrZaAZMW2E/8Qt4cpN3G0XGa9RIp9PukTDB8NvyK/7 +VeEJoucqmHnZlSBT5Wixs9+I2x9Tax2OD+sto4OmELe9qIGd2XZurV8S31b02pi7aMi bKdPnj5a7ozunygyX5Tll9vMTXXxPhKxNwpLljse++vblC7WhZt9+wwy7gUbehk4kihI q0aQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Ae3EiHzqfa407O+0LPZ/+zeVEN/SZP6GT61ySZfEB8A=; b=UMypVfhRkC7917OG3hzeYIhriH9ZFWDyrz5WJZTcxLK71kMBSOzWUQga7bv2k8JQZT 3wOZ4F+i7L+Lm+yQsIPWFcl8kaoX6pQn+YSbK69p4L1AdgWRpQ9JDpXIX22u0UcIsUV1 e+MFtwAXIqNvuKQxRiHkgCN9zroKHJkjm5c6IQ65BPV0FM9sZw0LVrhUDLJ9ea2fjOIN eXvUkQtAP+R38WVa/ivOcXi9qpMwabbRoIlEe6iOGBX/jCC+sstOhSHva4gdowr8f1Nc qwXPWU3oVb6/qTv0eCejoTzzlocmtPuP+hf2k0I1R8ZKqzu7PcoJVWAf0+8UloqQ+vMD Ifrg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUhgmoYgEeN7+YhxHhxlYsHwgBANhR90bjuKz4Y+LeDQXWkCHIl SXXOvhDKwSSbPliPze0IYcHvCYLP10l3Lc50WPE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzf0ndRMFNyu2JwkJ+luHfN9/2+VWZeiNFfrlt+Fl/wJQaZGV69RJ2ovC3q9idfwNzcjkBC3v4BGnki2Mxa08c= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6122:11a6:: with SMTP id y6mr8925221vkn.32.1579752330542; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 20:05:30 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6C674E9A-5946-4424-AEA1-689D2DA3C256.ref@yahoo.com> <6C674E9A-5946-4424-AEA1-689D2DA3C256@yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <6C674E9A-5946-4424-AEA1-689D2DA3C256@yahoo.com> From: Ben Woods Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 12:05:19 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: svn commit: r356758 - in head/usr.sbin/bsdinstall: . scripts To: Mark Millard Cc: freebsd-arch X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4837wX3n61z40r2 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=Rltf6o1Q; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of woodsb02@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::a35 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=woodsb02@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.00 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[9]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[yahoo.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-9.63), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-2.07), asn: 15169(-1.82), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-arch@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[5.3.a.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:05:33 -0000 On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 at 8:58 am, Mark Millard wrote: > Ben Woods woodsb02 at gmail.com write on > Thu Jan 23 00:07:13 UTC 2020 : > > > Before I commit phabricator review D23224, is there any final comments? > > > > Particularly on these 2 lines of help-text: > > msg_partitioning_zfs_help=3D"ZFS is recommended if you have at least 4G= B > RAM" > > msg_partitioning_ufs_help=3D"UFS is recommended if you have less than 4= GB > of > > RAM" > > > > There is some disagree about what these 2 recommendations should be. > > > > 4GB was recommended by: imp, emaste, philip, eugen, dteske > > 8GB was recommended by: mike > > 16GB was recommended by: cem > > > > The 4GB limit seems to have the best consensus, however there was some > > debate about whether ZFS is recommended on a system with 4GB, or only > > systems with MORE THAN 4GB. > > What of uSD card based systems (for example small ARM boards)? > Does the typical performance characteristics of the uSD cards > (such as large latencies) have ZFS consequences to avoid? The ZFS install option is only presented on amd64, i386, arm64 systems. https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd/blob/e8ec070d82b84afb3817e1bc76b4eeebfdb= 6ce0f/usr.sbin/bsdinstall/scripts/auto#L291 I suspect most small arm boards are still typically 32bit arm? However, that doesn=E2=80=99t preclude there being small arm64 boards (now or in the future...). More > generally: is there anything besides RAM that has enough use but > also has good reason to contribute to a potential choice to > avoid ZFS? (I've no clue of uSD card use makes a good example or > not, but I wanted something to illustrate the general question.) Perhaps the help text should instead include a link to the ZFS tuning guide that includes any and all considerations? I do like the choice to just add some quick notes to read > instead of detecting and adjusting defaults. > > [This may not make it to freebsd-arch: it is historically rare > that I'd comment there and so I've not tried to be added. > Anything I submit there goes through a moderator and I've > never objected when one of those rare ones did not go > through.] > > > As for the ZFS auto-tuning, I see that as being a separate discussion > > (which could ultimately change this recommendation, but shouldn't preve= nt > > us from committing this help text now). > > > > =3D=3D=3D > Mark Millard > marklmi at yahoo.com > ( dsl-only.net went > away in early 2018-Mar) Cheers, Ben > -- -- From: Benjamin Woods woodsb02@gmail.com From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Jan 23 15:19:34 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0699C1F4F10 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 15:19:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from slw@zxy.spb.ru) Received: from zxy.spb.ru (zxy.spb.ru [195.70.199.98]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 483QtD4v7Wz3GtM; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 15:19:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from slw@zxy.spb.ru) Received: from slw by zxy.spb.ru with local (Exim 4.86 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1iudhR-000Bn6-Hv; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 17:43:13 +0300 Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 17:43:13 +0300 From: Slawa Olhovchenkov To: Ben Woods Cc: mike@karels.net, Conrad Meyer , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, Ed Maste , Philip Paeps Subject: Re: svn commit: r356758 - in head/usr.sbin/bsdinstall: . scripts Message-ID: <20200123144313.GM38096@zxy.spb.ru> References: <202001180116.00I1G705020955@mail.karels.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: slw@zxy.spb.ru X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on zxy.spb.ru); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 483QtD4v7Wz3GtM X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of slw@zxy.spb.ru has no SPF policy when checking 195.70.199.98) smtp.mailfrom=slw@zxy.spb.ru X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.43 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[zxy.spb.ru]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.48)[0.476,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.97)[0.968,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:5495, ipnet:195.70.192.0/19, country:RU]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.08)[asn: 5495(0.41), country: RU(0.01)]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 15:19:34 -0000 On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 08:06:59AM +0800, Ben Woods wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Before I commit phabricator review D23224, is there any final comments? > > Particularly on these 2 lines of help-text: > msg_partitioning_zfs_help="ZFS is recommended if you have at least 4GB RAM" > msg_partitioning_ufs_help="UFS is recommended if you have less than 4GB of > RAM" > > There is some disagree about what these 2 recommendations should be. > > 4GB was recommended by: imp, emaste, philip, eugen, dteske > 8GB was recommended by: mike > 16GB was recommended by: cem > > The 4GB limit seems to have the best consensus, however there was some > debate about whether ZFS is recommended on a system with 4GB, or only > systems with MORE THAN 4GB. > > As for the ZFS auto-tuning, I see that as being a separate discussion > (which could ultimately change this recommendation, but shouldn't prevent > us from committing this help text now). May experience: ZFS recomended for 1GB and above. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 24 14:32:59 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 149A71F18FE for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 14:32:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-f52.google.com (mail-io1-f52.google.com [209.85.166.52]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4841p15f50z45K1 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 14:32:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-f52.google.com with SMTP id e7so2126108iof.11 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 06:32:57 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=OG/GFr8u6x48evordoodCpAKUTN02iQzbwn3KM6fJOM=; b=mdcQeGqRaQXFeBazSZI0/0prKtcwFDn8sfvUk6xjVuScD/kwhWKFdPWVmXgLzAYZch 97bid2s4K9yHNXB6SbskqubeeBAMOSoZupVh1/psIn8XZfu6jsqmzcn6pqZ0btW7+QAR 9tPI98VdwU/UQWb+wd2q/pgo20WZsNUJEOsZXD7s0XGzLK51+ElgE5a1SoDbKubZeW19 +83bLlf5jcxwEMolAQwTUZqlvwbTT1tw9HXJltqerPble641YaEZ6NpY3OCXgj85wg7L lEJWQGR3X+QiQe889fPP0PiA62G737cNP/vUf/Dh06ehRoHCCN46P5M9cvplmujlkNZC VW9A== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWNmrzIdSrCVV06FKQx+JhvhswiR5/MwQSy9zpWVylmgmxm6Giy 28yCL/0lnLDCk/DMe6OqVAeL5A8U19B4yWb0E+Q= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqysCxvtTBswvOGD2KEZLjhBOmuzXvYSkagVuZumZw22at3yRMVKGK2v7AlkJibthhY9nQvyH2L9yrZLO0TVIwY= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:72c:: with SMTP id j12mr2770265jad.136.1579876376268; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 06:32:56 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6C674E9A-5946-4424-AEA1-689D2DA3C256.ref@yahoo.com> <6C674E9A-5946-4424-AEA1-689D2DA3C256@yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: From: Ed Maste Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 09:32:44 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: svn commit: r356758 - in head/usr.sbin/bsdinstall: . scripts To: Ben Woods Cc: Mark Millard , freebsd-arch Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4841p15f50z45K1 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of carpeddiem@gmail.com designates 209.85.166.52 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=carpeddiem@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.84 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-arch@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freebsd.org]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[52.166.85.209.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(-1.84)[ip: (-4.30), ipnet: 209.85.128.0/17(-3.06), asn: 15169(-1.80), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[emaste@freebsd.org,carpeddiem@gmail.com]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[52.166.85.209.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[emaste@freebsd.org,carpeddiem@gmail.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[yahoo.com] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 14:32:59 -0000 On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 at 23:05, Ben Woods wrote: > > I suspect most small arm boards are still typically 32bit arm? However, > that doesn=E2=80=99t preclude there being small arm64 boards (now or in t= he > future...). The pine64 LTS is one of our arm64 reference platforms and it's a "small arm board" with 2GB of RAM. https://store.pine64.org/?product=3Dpine-a64-lts From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 24 14:38:06 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A68B41F1A42 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 14:38:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-f43.google.com (mail-io1-f43.google.com [209.85.166.43]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4841vx4YBQz45lx; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 14:38:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-f43.google.com with SMTP id x1so2161534iop.7; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 06:38:05 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=EL98xgVMegUMWAbzHxZc1wR9cEkx3S2HRTFkPuImxo4=; b=DwD4HxkzR0LqDtZYXsoqWQNesKkfDsDlDLdaIDhlYS2ymvySfbPF3ZMLXcllYi3WyQ ryw+Ruh8l43kuDI507ExJSn+oEMKUuEdWmmq01whgrYHSou7Zqb9xu3cbIIXr7zXw0xq rf1Cn1U4R6OOBWazHCgTK6PSoZeikvBZN7ylS7BOZVnpj9wWRJ8oNRhMqIU0GKviYhgu c+oc8CgmE6jjt3/Sqj3tf25a00pf5xhQeL8b1Z0FGwp/vLOJ3c7PTGP83fBwpcVVUQvC pWo2NeWJO4HFPr5xDce6XijXg9dXkSDivyyxlYKx2ci08UIEoMsf9UsfKLj8/ccFbLYd TfPA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWIZ8eilkkdXS4FgVViFO9fnydVC6tI6Zhv3zg5RWGwq9ec0RFG ock2tLIS5tXu0ZDLTpopRHCC6x0CO7QD+hlv5QY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwW/gIptEgi55SlBszafmGmVparW0qe0bCJtSZMb9iyQCa7mK4pA27YTFQB41NXJFfTJANEY6sGJ7+S4NQp1VQ= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:a13:: with SMTP id z19mr1528566ioi.182.1579876684571; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 06:38:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202001180116.00I1G705020955@mail.karels.net> In-Reply-To: From: Ed Maste Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 09:37:50 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: svn commit: r356758 - in head/usr.sbin/bsdinstall: . scripts To: Ben Woods Cc: mike@karels.net, Philip Paeps , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , Conrad Meyer Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4841vx4YBQz45lx X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of carpeddiem@gmail.com designates 209.85.166.43 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=carpeddiem@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.69 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[43.166.85.209.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(-1.69)[ip: (-3.52), ipnet: 209.85.128.0/17(-3.06), asn: 15169(-1.80), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[emaste@freebsd.org,carpeddiem@gmail.com]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[43.166.85.209.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[emaste@freebsd.org,carpeddiem@gmail.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 14:38:06 -0000 On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 at 19:07, Ben Woods wrote: > > 4GB was recommended by: imp, emaste, philip, eugen, dteske > 8GB was recommended by: mike > 16GB was recommended by: cem My earlier comment is more an agreement with defaulting to UFS/ZFS based on RAM and not that I gave careful consideration to the amount. I agree with some of the later comments in the thread, and would at least go with >4GB for ZFS by default, perhaps >=8GB. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 24 16:32:24 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39E241F4C51 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 16:32:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-qk1-x72e.google.com (mail-qk1-x72e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4844Rq1fHkz4DyR for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 16:32:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-qk1-x72e.google.com with SMTP id s187so2594445qke.8 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 08:32:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=FTNVwYLohhWddS2pR58/k+BQ11P5Nl6q1kFslj5lgNk=; b=CJp4fi1ZnAKMP4GM7rXL6lT4RVa5kbLEl6lYorZ2vYhIrl5/oB9jwzx0kaRwVqMCue PuPbT+KcvCOrxgMEk5vM0/oQFZyVlxZ/zWUjPZGF25Va7466F2LQgbWFr9ADe8/8XYcT BFErTz0VaYwVIY6Uyqk98gTxRBqMUB6HNPMfszYdAJmVsO9YCQ2uWAUBStPhaf1GWmEW WUnF7rygYTwC+wa0yCXNKDWoataw93simpCo5owEKh5MbVPVtoJtWIDjfLHp3JCrd5/R QZmSWlOoEe9H4AtgNHWpoxwAyG5CngGzi3l8JWo/6+Mjj+4gNAvp5ePX5SWh2OI+cpdY ZlyQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=FTNVwYLohhWddS2pR58/k+BQ11P5Nl6q1kFslj5lgNk=; b=W1p/zeXZSJGqVjHlkwUTia8qvK14Dod7GXjhwgn3mu8jI6fcLqcwCFp2IFKxPIwBQ3 /iz2NFJRN1hGNJzZ7UEq8nDr7F9L0GZ/Fq9XMxrHLzkdhfoJgqruz9AYinuX6AEkG/7+ ByRNSBaHpx0OQvjqQjvovVXmXDHO7sUjtUfPEl7ajxAmFZjt6D2DdDCLiZCa+flu/hy4 goylmO7e/4X6OQ9HmHtVze45JYLYl1FLBRh0w1w+NjKEol4KeAdwht9XR8SE2l/bRczG rFliZrUwD97lyLSCPgU9t/xIT9pABjaX2++Kdp0rQJ23Bvr1DGCyaq5aSeyYzfcH7F84 0hHQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAURRjcEYRkCQ5dsURU75OJtygVYEi4MKh1OxTyfkFbrnDnDKmTt IbKlPq7soqIiKBTxcErRAZYhe35isTsdvVuPwG31jA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwndB/fxHhvKRZM4vB6Rkk1+qqw87IMu8yg+6/AJabbkzeQgxcUrqiPInsXF9fghundUNDCpcLCOCSQazy1IPM= X-Received: by 2002:a37:4f8e:: with SMTP id d136mr3376343qkb.495.1579883541841; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 08:32:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6C674E9A-5946-4424-AEA1-689D2DA3C256.ref@yahoo.com> <6C674E9A-5946-4424-AEA1-689D2DA3C256@yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 09:32:10 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: svn commit: r356758 - in head/usr.sbin/bsdinstall: . scripts To: Ed Maste Cc: Ben Woods , Mark Millard , freebsd-arch X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4844Rq1fHkz4DyR X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=CJp4fi1Z; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wlosh@bsdimp.com has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::72e) smtp.mailfrom=wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.62 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-arch@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bsdimp.com]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[e.2.7.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; IP_SCORE(-2.62)[ip: (-9.19), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-2.06), asn: 15169(-1.80), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[gmail.com] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 16:32:24 -0000 On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 7:33 AM Ed Maste wrote: > On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 at 23:05, Ben Woods wrote: > > > > I suspect most small arm boards are still typically 32bit arm? However, > > that doesn=E2=80=99t preclude there being small arm64 boards (now or in= the > > future...). > > The pine64 LTS is one of our arm64 reference platforms and it's a > "small arm board" with 2GB of RAM. > https://store.pine64.org/?product=3Dpine-a64-lts But more relevant to the installer, we don't use it on 32-bit arm. We just provide SD card images today. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 24 16:33:56 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9A6F1F4CF0 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 16:33:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-qt1-x829.google.com (mail-qt1-x829.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::829]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4844Tb4nwQz4F4V for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 16:33:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-qt1-x829.google.com with SMTP id d18so1944955qtj.10 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 08:33:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; 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Fri, 24 Jan 2020 08:33:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202001180116.00I1G705020955@mail.karels.net> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 09:33:42 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: svn commit: r356758 - in head/usr.sbin/bsdinstall: . scripts To: Ed Maste Cc: Ben Woods , Conrad Meyer , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , Mike Karels , Philip Paeps X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4844Tb4nwQz4F4V X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=Njqbecgb; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wlosh@bsdimp.com has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::829) smtp.mailfrom=wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.64 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-arch@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bsdimp.com]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[9.2.8.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; IP_SCORE(-2.64)[ip: (-9.29), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-2.06), asn: 15169(-1.80), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[gmail.com] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 16:33:56 -0000 On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 7:38 AM Ed Maste wrote: > On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 at 19:07, Ben Woods wrote: > > > > 4GB was recommended by: imp, emaste, philip, eugen, dteske > > 8GB was recommended by: mike > > 16GB was recommended by: cem > > My earlier comment is more an agreement with defaulting to UFS/ZFS > based on RAM and not that I gave careful consideration to the amount. > I agree with some of the later comments in the thread, and would at > least go with >4GB for ZFS by default, perhaps >=8GB. > I'm happy for whatever comments we have here in the range. Maybe "ZFS requires at least 8GB of ram to be viable by default. Careful tuning can dramatically lower the amount of RAM needed." or something similar. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 24 18:42:35 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 819DF1F8544; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 18:42:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-f66.google.com (mail-io1-f66.google.com [209.85.166.66]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4847L23nTlz4NmX; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 18:42:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-f66.google.com with SMTP id i11so2956119ioi.12; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 10:42:34 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Ix0JJQVPl6x/ShYq5zwvNGJGScfu/UHFw9/oADcqYNU=; b=sNlS2xF9qxK5tI2oynYzHiFI7Ofj6pC2CbwCwEQXiKM/frTFlPptkK8ZDRHctBX6tR Qd6SMuODXM6TeYPXm6Ej9jvLY8Cv1WZ50ykyBHJGCQCZQuRCCCgzgL6lH2/B/Gy19ahS LegfrXcMzEAQ7ZsNp7RX6+tx005TNDYQMx8IMY11xb1IvCvF4IkEC0W7dqCJ1ggpgynO NDannz/AxQ4DC9L26DcUHQ5VUO5XRJQE9NHbIAkaEH5OEVPsOrG0CezCmWhHDD1LrDZg 6PTOpeZPkj+Bh5bnMsYuOP1i4e7AigroL3y6wsGSISW11qdHJKcMwDcmM/BHoh/IARsb jpGA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUPZ1V/GZpvn4+grcs2xkeHbX1/+fUJyvcxMJyvNvUQGhtJ6WEK zuXzhTSvz86SujRxTVfpS1DsyUuLsVtRJDifLal+/A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqydYlDK0i+rlpBIztn8EMWaF+dql6rqkNZTYK9n/kNnMI1C/V2RMz4TXPCvGldH9ERc51l0l+/5fWaNG8ier1U= X-Received: by 2002:a5e:d617:: with SMTP id w23mr3191820iom.98.1579891352159; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 10:42:32 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Ed Maste Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 13:42:19 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Gcc 4.2.1 to be removed before FreeBSD 13, a firm timeline To: sparc64@freebsd.org Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4847L23nTlz4NmX X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of carpeddiem@gmail.com designates 209.85.166.66 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=carpeddiem@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.05 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17:c]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE(-1.05)[ip: (-0.32), ipnet: 209.85.128.0/17(-3.06), asn: 15169(-1.80), country: US(-0.05)]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[66.166.85.209.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[emaste@freebsd.org,carpeddiem@gmail.com]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[66.166.85.209.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[emaste@freebsd.org,carpeddiem@gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 18:42:35 -0000 On Wed, 8 Jan 2020 at 17:09, Ed Maste wrote: > > On Tue, 7 Jan 2020 at 15:19, Ed Maste wrote: > > > > PR 233405 libunwind > > I've somewhat addressed this today, committing (untested) build fixes > from cem@. Someone with an interest in sparc64 and access to hardware > will need to test and investigate any failures. Note that this was reverted on request. Someone with sparc64 hardware will need to reapply the patch from PR233405, test it, and report. Additional bug fixing will almost certainly be required. > > PR 239851 BSD crtbegin > > This is now the main blocking issue. This is still outstanding, with GCC-derived crt scheduled for removal at the end of the month. See https://reviews.freebsd.org/D23122 for more. > > PR 243119 binutils 2.33.1,1 assertion failure (but it has a patch!) > > A fixed binutils package should be available in a week or so. The fixed package is available (and the fix working its way to a new upstream release). From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Jan 25 04:09:46 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D6632317C6 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 04:09:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from woodsb02@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vs1-xe2f.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 484MwS5FZNz41lW; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 04:09:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from woodsb02@gmail.com) Received: by mail-vs1-xe2f.google.com with SMTP id b4so2543751vsa.12; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 20:09:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=++b+1nkp8h2WYBhoNlk4WzPW2Llmbr3ptJ1RSH1vK8o=; b=l4nLSJ0yQdYrb6c7a5D66QZR4lY75fs/Mj8+l4K1C4XgctfXShrqz480x6ceLT7Nv+ R2zyDUQIvfsFTlGy9soKNO2BnSzgczl7vv07ONQP3K6CXxEmPMBZqJJQIbaxK2eTG/X/ TrAJ9jMWvygcLyHTKTc4B5pR4nbF1zTrIUZwMCIdzBRu7rmZYiOUwA9NQW8zetmsT0s1 aWIkSogVGe1ew6G+22aIGy6lE3Rm5cOiPHIBBinEcOSORQ+15QYYt7Y4aFtGpWIBy3MT TsawotnFjsQml8pFV9CLkOSVtlvtnb3vtLUgnoIkXzT2Q5+qXruZw6bTMs63cZW/qNRq HzIQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=++b+1nkp8h2WYBhoNlk4WzPW2Llmbr3ptJ1RSH1vK8o=; b=oAzTI3g/bUWCblQ7ghbF3Txojle8lOXTUn3JD6yhZSJQhNODSbbW9OafGQkTFen+kp ijS/up0cAtVUsCi/RiJ6rf4lhLIJyI5JKA8J+zfliwETOCdBB3aL8aBrct9g/7PgAgaJ kg6J1uS4U3BJi23FR+W5jhRlCBigtN6jrtx6nZXQgHxAWe6DB5UAYvHHU49hDCNdtKMn TuQlnlbVqBK7hQXtZXrx1vfzDNnFBPVh8siUfQpVqdesy/bNZDJ+eCrHnppFInnTiRaT K+iVVwWfS5lPhOvpTr3EIQAMjKC0agHQETndDy05ydgI5we7eFJIRN8pyx7vyKZP+ABK qh7Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWYkL1mXK0Y9VCKhsxsIkesfO93gwW6JVkqtnDR4wPjGHln2OS+ IT4z/YiCLryo4TCzGR4p1RIkAxvnAix1k9Im9cIH0OJo X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzHtxaj2uBgi16IR5oE0bPITDGTB548vu/gCFdbzl5WkHj91aTqkYsAzv9cI2l0J9ik/b3QamDSqA/eWESRHg0= X-Received: by 2002:a67:30c7:: with SMTP id w190mr4157306vsw.98.1579925383557; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 20:09:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202001180116.00I1G705020955@mail.karels.net> In-Reply-To: From: Ben Woods Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 12:09:31 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: svn commit: r356758 - in head/usr.sbin/bsdinstall: . scripts To: Warner Losh Cc: Ed Maste , Conrad Meyer , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , Mike Karels , Philip Paeps X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 484MwS5FZNz41lW X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=l4nLSJ0y; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of woodsb02@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2f as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=woodsb02@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.00 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-9.60), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-2.06), asn: 15169(-1.80), country: US(-0.05)]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[7]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[f.2.e.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 04:09:46 -0000 On Sat, 25 Jan 2020 at 00:33, Warner Losh wrote: > I'm happy for whatever comments we have here in the range. Maybe "ZFS > requires at least 8GB of ram to be viable by default. Careful tuning can > dramatically lower the amount of RAM needed." or something similar. > > Warner > Thanks Warner - I have used inspiration from your recommended text and others to propose the following bsdinstall help text: msg_partitioning_zfs_help="To use ZFS with less than 8GB RAM, see https://wiki.freebsd.org/ZFSTuningGuide" msg_partitioning_ufs_help="Menu options help choose which disk to setup using UFS and standard partitions" Note that both of those lines are at their maximum length (we have 78 characters to work with in order to support a standard 80 column terminal). I think that this avoids recommending a hard limit for when ZFS can and can't be used, but also points out cases where tuning might be required in low RAM instances, and where to go for more information. Noting that the very first line of the ZFSTuningGuide wiki article is currently: "To use ZFS, at least 1 GB of memory is recommended (for all architectures) but more is helpful as ZFS needs *lots* of memory." I have uploaded the phabricator review here: https://reviews.freebsd.org/D23224 Regards, Ben From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Jan 25 10:56:05 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE8E723BD2E for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 10:56:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bzeeb-lists@lists.zabbadoz.net) Received: from mx1.sbone.de (mx1.sbone.de [IPv6:2a01:4f8:13b:39f::9f:25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mx1.sbone.de", Issuer "SBone.DE" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 484XxJ2mTrz4N5D; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 10:56:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bzeeb-lists@lists.zabbadoz.net) Received: from mail.sbone.de (mail.sbone.de [IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:587]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.sbone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A45E28D4A129; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 10:55:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: from content-filter.sbone.de (content-filter.sbone.de [IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:2742]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.sbone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 398CCE707B5; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 10:55:56 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at sbone.de Received: from mail.sbone.de ([IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:587]) by content-filter.sbone.de (content-filter.sbone.de [fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:2742]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OP2mrc1nrrew; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 10:55:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [169.254.250.75] (unknown [IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:4902:a1a4:555:d3e3:f70c]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.sbone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6E6F4E707B0; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 10:55:54 +0000 (UTC) From: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" To: "Shivank Garg" Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to Z mainframes idea Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 10:55:53 +0000 X-Mailer: MailMate (2.0BETAr6146) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <20200118222619.GD67053@eureka.lemis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 484XxJ2mTrz4N5D X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of bzeeb-lists@lists.zabbadoz.net designates 2a01:4f8:13b:39f::9f:25 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bzeeb-lists@lists.zabbadoz.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.83 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a01:4f8:13b:39f::9f:25]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[zabbadoz.net]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE(-2.53)[ip: (-8.54), ipnet: 2a01:4f8::/29(-2.52), asn: 24940(-1.55), country: DE(-0.02)]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:24940, ipnet:2a01:4f8::/29, country:DE]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 10:56:05 -0000 On 19 Jan 2020, at 14:21, Shivank Garg wrote: Hi, > On Sun, Jan 19, 2020, 3:56 AM Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > >> On Saturday, 18 January 2020 at 12:43:02 +0530, Shivank Garg wrote: >>> Hi! >>> I wish to pursue this idea of porting FreeBSD to IBM Z mainframes. >>> Currently, there are no BSD derivatives for Z mainframes, and I find the >>> idea of porting FreeBSD to Z mainframe. >>> >>> Someone on IRC suggested to port NetBSD first, as it is easier to port on >>> different hardware platforms. >> >> Agreed, at least at first sight. Have you discussed this on the >> NetBSD lists? >> > > No. I haven't discussed this with them yet. I actually also have no idea about their community thinking about it still. Would be curious to know. >>> There is a sponsored internship program called OpenMainFrame >>> Mentorship. So, I thought to propose this project in this >>> program. But I'm a beginner and have very little idea about the >>> whole porting process and challenges faced during it. I will be >>> very thankful if you can give suggestions about this, and how much >>> time will it take for a beginner? The mentorship program is for a >>> span of 3-4 months. I think 3-4 months is nowhere near where you can get to anything useful if you have no clue about the mainframe architecture and low-level kernel bringup. >>> Also, If it's too difficult, can there be any doable goals in the >>> porting process that I can propose for the program and I would >>> continue the project even after the program is over. I personally >>> feel the project has good potential, and It will be very helpful in >>> my learning growth. The latter probably, the former not so much. I’ve been contemplating it on-and-off for more than a decade. I’ve made make buildworld buildkernel work twice already with skeleton (read mostly empty implementation) in order to allow people to join and help. I’ve asked developers and people who did work on other OSes. I’ve never found the really good “YES DO IT” case apart from it being a hobby project. I’ve found people who were interested in running it. In order to justify it becoming an official FreeBSD platform to run on you need more than a single customer sadly and you probably need someone from the inside at big blue to be able to actually run it on anything that is not qemu (or some open source emulator). /bz From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Jan 25 18:41:59 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A12451F7596 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 18:41:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-qt1-x82f.google.com (mail-qt1-x82f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 484lGt5KfSz3x8N for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 18:41:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-qt1-x82f.google.com with SMTP id e25so4238151qtr.13 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 10:41:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=mZ2k0kO1pRp35zltzaXs+0ZAhCfh4zZunScfiaFPk10=; b=ZChQE663M5fhpM7fYIR2SzSoKClOFI1zoVKh/dTPYtPT9IfaZBgCM9noBryzUsy2m5 V+EaRadN1uzXHdNzT3N/6O8aaGgmeAyA102AE64k3Kt47Ex5X/03MWzB/13O1OkFLk2W BabrHNrMe3XKeYHJ04/TM8/ODzaO3im49ueaoP89rzyTXo1MpsSld69sRZnr4F8fT8c4 lur5RWIc7YLxBWdVhb/d0kChHhKQoxhleyO2XGM9g3X1vRZR0OVhJemr+rsCWeOA1Ii3 64kUXWfyqzZE68EEPJH3G/v9gJjj9ZvKSqefJyfhCCmU9wky1jMBEuG0m3JUE0F7x+Ne NQzQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=mZ2k0kO1pRp35zltzaXs+0ZAhCfh4zZunScfiaFPk10=; b=LJKPSSLAZSrQ9v3A4DJkDf3SbD/5+wPLqn9ZALSMeewGOdMYXBn3Y6Z+fhG9/lh0X1 Zj+mSzR+DrUME0MgSAvS+b2sE1rWoafWTlBq9fuEnSJR5sS9WOOdMhrAPJXp/D6MiegB wTizJLg4uOOe66XnTDbDEMNverUyrcy3TmBBgGzctdSy30xR8qmPOcBEAiNOSO78jgPH 4T/EKkDyeXp89T5Zg5wzj1KRnhFSfjfIsC5BMtT6SV7kKx6my58loXDq3h+xv1jmuaNI NcQooXxIEW9l30EebNuDsex1jZ3C/rsXT07UzCJ96h9wMnU/QCsycRDrsgXHJg7wNjcm fk6g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXoaBEHEOh/2HJ9KdRof1uCo/BxESfr801HGs8vjSW9WuHgcqTm MtMpGTq7GVE55IBkAjTUpRvsl9jodGLamsy8srBRZA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwc0Jeko8arIaFOxu49LwJDp3xxdV+PB5g8dxIBODPKp2ZJNiCJof6DYWmUOrm9ve/ajtnZUbHlsgbiSPq7/zg= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:38ae:: with SMTP id f43mr8495281qtc.291.1579977717212; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 10:41:57 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200118222619.GD67053@eureka.lemis.com> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 11:41:45 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to Z mainframes idea To: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" Cc: Shivank Garg , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 484lGt5KfSz3x8N X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=ZChQE663; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wlosh@bsdimp.com has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::82f) smtp.mailfrom=wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.64 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-arch@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bsdimp.com]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[f.2.8.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; IP_SCORE(-2.64)[ip: (-9.30), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-2.05), asn: 15169(-1.79), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 18:41:59 -0000 On Sat, Jan 25, 2020, 3:56 AM Bjoern A. Zeeb wrote: > On 19 Jan 2020, at 14:21, Shivank Garg wrote: > > Hi, > > > On Sun, Jan 19, 2020, 3:56 AM Greg 'groggy' Lehey > wrote: > > > >> On Saturday, 18 January 2020 at 12:43:02 +0530, Shivank Garg wrote: > >>> Hi! > >>> I wish to pursue this idea of porting FreeBSD to IBM Z mainframes. > >>> Currently, there are no BSD derivatives for Z mainframes, and I find > the > >>> idea of porting FreeBSD to Z mainframe. > >>> > >>> Someone on IRC suggested to port NetBSD first, as it is easier to por= t > on > >>> different hardware platforms. > >> > >> Agreed, at least at first sight. Have you discussed this on the > >> NetBSD lists? > >> > > > > No. I haven't discussed this with them yet. > > I actually also have no idea about their community thinking about it stil= l. > Would be curious to know. > > > >>> There is a sponsored internship program called OpenMainFrame > >>> Mentorship. So, I thought to propose this project in this > >>> program. But I'm a beginner and have very little idea about the > >>> whole porting process and challenges faced during it. I will be > >>> very thankful if you can give suggestions about this, and how much > >>> time will it take for a beginner? The mentorship program is for a > >>> span of 3-4 months. > > I think 3-4 months is nowhere near where you can get to anything useful > if you have no clue about the mainframe architecture and low-level > kernel bringup. > > > >>> Also, If it's too difficult, can there be any doable goals in the > >>> porting process that I can propose for the program and I would > >>> continue the project even after the program is over. I personally > >>> feel the project has good potential, and It will be very helpful in > >>> my learning growth. > > The latter probably, the former not so much. I=E2=80=99ve been contempla= ting > it on-and-off for more than a decade. > > I=E2=80=99ve made make buildworld buildkernel work twice already with ske= leton > (read mostly empty implementation) in order to allow people to join and > help. > > I=E2=80=99ve asked developers and people who did work on other OSes. > I=E2=80=99ve never found the really good =E2=80=9CYES DO IT=E2=80=9D case= apart from it being > a hobby project. I=E2=80=99ve found people who were interested in runnin= g it. > In order to justify it becoming an official FreeBSD platform to run on > you need more than a single customer sadly and you probably need someone > from the inside at big blue to be able to actually run it on anything > that is not qemu (or some open source emulator). > I'm mulling how to have a good round of discussions about the minimums to be in the tree. One thing we need is good CI to know things are working. For that, qemu is great. In fact, there is a strong desire to have a smoke test that makes a bootable image and then boot it to multi user that is completely automatic. But running on real hardware also is needed. It makes the port useful. It also increases the appeal and often brings resources to maintain it... Warner /bz > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Jan 25 18:58:29 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9568A1F7B61 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 18:58:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jroberson@jroberson.net) Received: from mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (mailman.nyi.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::50:13]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 484ldx2Pg0z3xgd for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 18:58:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jroberson@jroberson.net) Received: by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 5284B1F7B60; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 18:58:29 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5247B1F7B5C for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 18:58:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jroberson@jroberson.net) Received: from mail-pg1-x52d.google.com (mail-pg1-x52d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52d]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 484ldw2D73z3xgc for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 18:58:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jroberson@jroberson.net) Received: by mail-pg1-x52d.google.com with SMTP id x7so2931669pgl.11 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 10:58:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jroberson-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=sGsjLE7tFbos/EsU3Wcx/c1Tx+8Ew09ZdkAE9C1qhTk=; b=s6abrpNLrWtt7Z2FsTTg+tq3FEgwEmpdC4QEgF1Qtrvq7yvKS346NDQm4htBOD9cCL F0J9DD7OyiXZFe+MJUtabike/ENMXiDY3uSny7W6E/p9J802LXO6KGtl66UtrDin9vRo I1rj9ekFwsIEkpGe0Gic5BfRQu5o0Xb9UUwfSoDcuCNIzUBwzD5j2uxyA82L6Lmn3UNO mMfU5nugGhu24dZM0hylLZDTx1yEgJKUU9HncEHRnD1IcuYgH+/MhO64lGgUZA+mFmYB wMK0DcesLZLG6xwM623xBYKbtcpyJJHYfoEWQBfEZUk5QWhH0L15aKewHt7AD4mHn9kj njAg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:user-agent :mime-version; bh=sGsjLE7tFbos/EsU3Wcx/c1Tx+8Ew09ZdkAE9C1qhTk=; b=i8UYv7ePlI7ejr4rT5pc0HriLEUpGWCQTNAFoecX2vyAHhaQ4FGaw5W8k1PSfuyYIn 31lS5trMrlwSYVWvcCGuNRUSxjiz/cMAzEOfDknxSF2AK++83MmHpe7uPR0IXjwffCyJ GJsak8nEg67SYfUFSGAQ/9bvPf/+CHzk96UxVNhAfGY7AD4EgGJGnuTKyrt4+zmYbtAw y84iRKRBNowGvgSF/JozNzVugNAPM6nzxLp0995NX59Dab9rhPaIn2y6PwtxLmkUfcbb z97orajINiAfLX9oRZ5tOGnXE7OFSUv20Q1E/7D2EGK4GB2EMXnZ9PSGPYl69EzXUivG bzZg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWNm1zkSHat8ahQYcnZwswAX8fSNA9ynE5BEWxUDJbjFmuagotG ElpcEMKgZIOpFujmxZapMk5jR7fZKQU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzu1A08Um5RxSCfUUkzZs2BiEK7KDCufbvfEcz1BXEoEEjKttHMEm90Yi5YPyAOl6Fm2cKrOw== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:8a8e:: with SMTP id a14mr9049418pfc.217.1579978705890; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 10:58:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from rrcs-76-81-105-82.west.biz.rr.com (rrcs-76-81-105-82.west.biz.rr.com. [76.81.105.82]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l37sm881184pjb.15.2020.01.25.10.58.24 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 25 Jan 2020 10:58:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 08:58:23 -1000 (HST) From: Jeff Roberson X-X-Sender: jroberson@desktop To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: New Safe Memory Reclamation feature in UMA Message-ID: User-Agent: Alpine 2.21.9999 (BSF 287 2018-06-16) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 484ldw2D73z3xgc X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=jroberson-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=s6abrpNL; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jroberson@jroberson.net has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::52d) smtp.mailfrom=jroberson@jroberson.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.33 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[jroberson-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[arch@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[jroberson.net]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[jroberson-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[d.2.5.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-2.53)[ip: (-8.76), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-2.05), asn: 15169(-1.79), country: US(-0.05)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 18:58:29 -0000 Hello Folks, I want to make the larger community aware of a substantial feature coming to UMA soon. The review is at https://reviews.freebsd.org/D22586 along with some perf results. SMR is a technique that allows for various types of lockless synchronization by eliminating use-after-free hazards. This is in the same family as RCU/QSBR/EPOCH/Parsec. There is quite a lot of material available on the uses of these algorithms. Most of these algorithms suffer from holding on to freed memory for a relatively long period of time and reclaiming it when it's cache-cold. This also creates quite a lot of resource starvation edge cases. This is evident by the amount of code in RCU on linux intended to work around these issues. These algorithms are generally best with a small write/free workload and a very heavy read workload. For the virtual memory system I needed something that could sustain relatively rapid frees. I have ended up with a scheme that integrates with the allocator and uses a novel epoch/version tracking mechanism. The pair of these gives me 3x faster performance with 1/20th the memory overhead of our existing epoch implementation in my obviously contrived perf test. I do not want to imply that if we replaced the network epoch with uma smr the network stack would go 3x faster. I do think there may be benefits there especially for things with high turnover like pcbs. I do not yet have support for sleepable sections so there is a lot of technical space between here and there. There is a lot of information in the review and comments in the code. I will be validating on weaker memory ordering architectures. I need to write a man page. I would like to find a snappy name to avoid confusion with other algorithms. If anyone has suggestions I am open to it. Thanks, Jeff From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Jan 25 19:42:09 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A03571F8921 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 19:42:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from smtp-out-so.shaw.ca (smtp-out-so.shaw.ca [64.59.136.138]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 484mcC60sNz40yM; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 19:42:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.67.125.17]) by shaw.ca with ESMTPA id vRJditObORnrKvRJfiZkCC; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 12:42:01 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=L7FjvNb8 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:117 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:17 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=Jdjhy38mL1oA:10 a=9bHR7MVLAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=LAA-nUF6ppTgNGcmZ0QA:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=rGa912Eb8vYA:10 a=I7KxNEAtLM9g1UmuDjRu:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy [10.1.1.91]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 112CA33B; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 11:41:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 00PJfuPl004735; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 11:41:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from slippy (cy@localhost) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id 00PJfuhE004732; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 11:41:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Message-Id: <202001251941.00PJfuhE004732@slippy.cwsent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: slippy.cwsent.com: cy owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.9.0 11/07/2018 with nmh-1.7.1 Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: Warner Losh cc: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" , Shivank Garg , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to Z mainframes idea In-reply-to: References: <20200118222619.GD67053@eureka.lemis.com> Comments: In-reply-to Warner Losh message dated "Sat, 25 Jan 2020 11:41:45 -0700." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 11:41:56 -0800 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfDj2edHFtVxvodHkKYhR2S+mmg3X+Qg6Vy0q+uUpPhdR21+j3JxqwHgPk9OTKGIiF7oz+Mp8fW8+vhceXoZCSuqiOIPCZAnK/FEVVlCKe4nmBt+oyj0z TsMMMJQGsqfkV8/JlpqjVklbNmhqsqF51cre/YR8pbXwya3AK0G1pAL9XBvJk/ZyEjc4K7HNembhFE0X74ahNZJ3YvXkgmVsdlkqK4+Nsj2ihPWn1x7TXfS6 S8NWGgJ7QXuOCxfhhz3Eo0FNCd/+Uxqo4IOaPkb98laPeWVXrpRdFKvWOWEK2IAn X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 484mcC60sNz40yM X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of cy.schubert@cschubert.com has no SPF policy when checking 64.59.136.138) smtp.mailfrom=cy.schubert@cschubert.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.10 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-2.40)[ip: (-6.25), ipnet: 64.59.128.0/20(-3.17), asn: 6327(-2.47), country: CA(-0.09)]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[17.125.67.70.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6327, ipnet:64.59.128.0/20, country:CA]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[138.136.59.64.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 19:42:09 -0000 In message , Warner Losh writes: > On Sat, Jan 25, 2020, 3:56 AM Bjoern A. Zeeb > wrote: > > > On 19 Jan 2020, at 14:21, Shivank Garg wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > > On Sun, Jan 19, 2020, 3:56 AM Greg 'groggy' Lehey > > wrote: > > > > > >> On Saturday, 18 January 2020 at 12:43:02 +0530, Shivank Garg wrote: > > >>> Hi! > > >>> I wish to pursue this idea of porting FreeBSD to IBM Z mainframes. > > >>> Currently, there are no BSD derivatives for Z mainframes, and I find > > the > > >>> idea of porting FreeBSD to Z mainframe. > > >>> > > >>> Someone on IRC suggested to port NetBSD first, as it is easier to port > > on > > >>> different hardware platforms. > > >> > > >> Agreed, at least at first sight. Have you discussed this on the > > >> NetBSD lists? > > >> > > > > > > No. I haven't discussed this with them yet. > > > > I actually also have no idea about their community thinking about it still. > > Would be curious to know. > > > > > > >>> There is a sponsored internship program called OpenMainFrame > > >>> Mentorship. So, I thought to propose this project in this > > >>> program. But I'm a beginner and have very little idea about the > > >>> whole porting process and challenges faced during it. I will be > > >>> very thankful if you can give suggestions about this, and how much > > >>> time will it take for a beginner? The mentorship program is for a > > >>> span of 3-4 months. > > > > I think 3-4 months is nowhere near where you can get to anything useful > > if you have no clue about the mainframe architecture and low-level > > kernel bringup. > > > > > > >>> Also, If it's too difficult, can there be any doable goals in the > > >>> porting process that I can propose for the program and I would > > >>> continue the project even after the program is over. I personally > > >>> feel the project has good potential, and It will be very helpful in > > >>> my learning growth. > > > > The latter probably, the former not so much. I’ve been contemplating > > it on-and-off for more than a decade. > > > > I’ve made make buildworld buildkernel work twice already with skeleton > > (read mostly empty implementation) in order to allow people to join and > > help. > > > > I’ve asked developers and people who did work on other OSes. > > I’ve never found the really good “YES DO IT” case apart from it being > > a hobby project. I’ve found people who were interested in running it. > > In order to justify it becoming an official FreeBSD platform to run on > > you need more than a single customer sadly and you probably need someone > > from the inside at big blue to be able to actually run it on anything > > that is not qemu (or some open source emulator). > > > > I'm mulling how to have a good round of discussions about the minimums to > be in the tree. One thing we need is good CI to know things are working. > For that, qemu is great. In fact, there is a strong desire to have a smoke > test that makes a bootable image and then boot it to multi user that is > completely automatic. > > But running on real hardware also is needed. It makes the port useful. It > also increases the appeal and often brings resources to maintain it... IBM mainframes (360 and its descendants to z/Series) have very little in common with the architectures we currently support, i.e. there is no stack, I/O is performed through channel programs (loosely similar to machine code for channels). EBCDIC is native. Sure you can use ASCII however instructions to convert integer to packed to printable produce EBCDIC output. Agreed, real hardware is required and not just older 370/XA or ESA hardware but 64-bit z/Series hardware. And they're expensive. Additionally, disk formats are different. Even though current disks are FBA (fixed block architecture - with sectors), they emulate older 3380 and 3390 CKD (count key data - variable length blocks) devices. Decisions regarding block size and space used by inter-record gaps must be considered, a space/time issue. Not only must the CPU architecture be considered but the I/O subsystem and how data is physically laid out on disk. How would you support vi on a 3270, a different editor maybe? Serial terminals, network access, and any other terminals would require a network controller (in my day we used 3705 and 3725 controllers with network control program [NCP] loaded). BTW, an application on MVS, called VTAM, would load the NCP O/S into the network controller and manage network communication. In other words, this would be a big job. Though I'm partial to the IBM mainframe architecture and instruction set -- I spent the first half of my career mucking around in the MVS kernel -- and would love to see FreeBSD support it, I cannot justify the huge effort. How many mainframes still remain and what would people use FreeBSD for on a mainframe? IMO there are more important and urgent things to work on, but at the same I don't think we should stop someone who has the cycles to spare and has access to hardware, unless the people involved are pulled away from other projects that could help FreeBSD. It would be fun but is it realistic? I think that's why all attempts to develop a BSD for the mainframe have stalled after a while, the people working at it became discouraged. BTW, Linux doesn't run on the bare metal IBM mainframe either. It runs in a VM under z/VM. Maybe this is what we should try at first. z/VM can present mini disks which appear as FBA devices to the VM. No need to get a mainframe, just a VM account somewhere. -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Jan 25 20:22:24 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1678B1F9E5E for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 20:22:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 484nVk1fX8z43LT; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 20:22:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (v-critter.freebsd.dk [192.168.55.3]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1EEF51AF101; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 20:22:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 00PKMD04012529 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 25 Jan 2020 20:22:13 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: (from phk@localhost) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 00PKMCKS012528; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 20:22:12 GMT (envelope-from phk) To: Cy Schubert cc: Warner Losh , "Bjoern A. Zeeb" , Shivank Garg , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to Z mainframes idea In-reply-to: <202001251941.00PJfuhE004732@slippy.cwsent.com> From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" References: <20200118222619.GD67053@eureka.lemis.com> <202001251941.00PJfuhE004732@slippy.cwsent.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <12526.1579983732.1@critter.freebsd.dk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 20:22:12 +0000 Message-ID: <12527.1579983732@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 484nVk1fX8z43LT X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of phk@critter.freebsd.dk designates 130.225.244.222 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=phk@critter.freebsd.dk X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.20 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.79)[-0.793,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freebsd.dk]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.55)[0.549,0]; IP_SCORE(0.04)[ip: (0.06), ipnet: 130.225.0.0/16(0.07), asn: 1835(0.08), country: EU(-0.01)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[phk@phk.freebsd.dk,phk@critter.freebsd.dk]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:1835, ipnet:130.225.0.0/16, country:EU]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[phk@phk.freebsd.dk,phk@critter.freebsd.dk]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 20:22:24 -0000 -------- In message <202001251941.00PJfuhE004732@slippy.cwsent.com>, Cy Schubert wr= ites: >How would you support vi on a 3270, a different editor maybe? I have run vi(1) on a 3278(-compatible) connected with SNA to an Amdahl running UTS, but I have no idea how much magic were involved for that to not kill the CPU. At the very least either the 3174 or the 3745 must have been involved. -- = Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe = Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence= . From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Jan 25 21:12:55 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 562881FB71D for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 21:12:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from smtp-out-no.shaw.ca (smtp-out-no.shaw.ca [64.59.134.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 484pd21vQGz46rb; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 21:12:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.67.125.17]) by shaw.ca with ESMTPA id vSjYijX5HnCigvSjZiYVLL; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 14:12:51 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=cZisUULM c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:117 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=xqWC_Br6kY4A:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=Jdjhy38mL1oA:10 a=VxmjJ2MpAAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=pbV41el_XU-R8gImr00A:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=7gXAzLPJhVmCkEl4_tsf:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 Received: from [IPv6:2605:8d80:404:d7ee:2c2a:d9c0:62f1:7c09] (unknown [72.143.230.11]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C9A924B8; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 13:12:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 13:12:44 -0800 User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: <12527.1579983732@critter.freebsd.dk> References: <20200118222619.GD67053@eureka.lemis.com> <202001251941.00PJfuhE004732@slippy.cwsent.com> <12527.1579983732@critter.freebsd.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to Z mainframes idea To: Poul-Henning Kamp CC: Warner Losh , "Bjoern A. Zeeb" , Shivank Garg , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org From: Cy Schubert Message-ID: <7CA80A6B-47C4-4B70-B590-01532A1D9DE4@cschubert.com> X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfNa2pwwFqjMKLhgafPx6T03KUaMnexFP60Iwx0FdcNcPrsf3AbrZPjPhcMWyanV4H5cAW2mc7hCPC8ly71H2w9PRzlHAMZQe2yKFaw5oXAu1GuzjEgjZ nhNb+iz28FHLCGWumCe2vMu3Ke5LxS0kTBgd4DLPP3YgxQ/ls6VndgOs3vHofuguzzZsVxpDioOmkwnqMysf/CrE6VQIXu01TXnv2zMcLbmg2KgsGYSn0slP tq2CcNO0euCWxWgk9JGaS4je68cLXE0R8Cmg0eBa2DvzS/8MZ3kkxBSiJOwzZDewt8Dnlw3YRLQohna8ayQVMQ== X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 484pd21vQGz46rb X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of cy.schubert@cschubert.com has no SPF policy when checking 64.59.134.12) smtp.mailfrom=cy.schubert@cschubert.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.66 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[17.125.67.70.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11,11.230.143.72.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[12.134.59.64.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.18]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[12.134.59.64.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6327, ipnet:64.59.128.0/20, country:CA]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-2.46)[ip: (-6.56), ipnet: 64.59.128.0/20(-3.17), asn: 6327(-2.47), country: CA(-0.09)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 21:12:55 -0000 On January 25, 2020 12:22:12 PM PST, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >-------- >In message <202001251941=2E00PJfuhE004732@slippy=2Ecwsent=2Ecom>, Cy Schu= bert >writes: > >>How would you support vi on a 3270, a different editor maybe? > >I have run vi(1) on a 3278(-compatible) connected with SNA to an >Amdahl running UTS, but I have no idea how much magic were involved >for that to not kill the CPU=2E > >At the very least either the 3174 or the 3745 must have been involved=2E Hmm interesting=2E Probably 3174 firmware to make it behave less like a bl= ock half duplex terminal=2E=20 --=20 Pardon the typos and autocorrect, small keyboard in use=2E=20 Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: https://www=2EFreeBSD=2Eorg The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few=2E Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Jan 25 21:55:25 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31EF11FC712 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 21:55:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 484qZ41TFPz48t4; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 21:55:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (v-critter.freebsd.dk [192.168.55.3]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 73DDD1AF101; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 21:55:21 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 00PLtLJd012809 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 25 Jan 2020 21:55:21 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: (from phk@localhost) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 00PLtKWN012808; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 21:55:20 GMT (envelope-from phk) To: Cy Schubert cc: Warner Losh , "Bjoern A. Zeeb" , Shivank Garg , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to Z mainframes idea In-reply-to: <7CA80A6B-47C4-4B70-B590-01532A1D9DE4@cschubert.com> From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" References: <20200118222619.GD67053@eureka.lemis.com> <202001251941.00PJfuhE004732@slippy.cwsent.com> <12527.1579983732@critter.freebsd.dk> <7CA80A6B-47C4-4B70-B590-01532A1D9DE4@cschubert.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <12806.1579989320.1@critter.freebsd.dk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 21:55:20 +0000 Message-ID: <12807.1579989320@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 484qZ41TFPz48t4 X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of phk@critter.freebsd.dk designates 130.225.244.222 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=phk@critter.freebsd.dk X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.36 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.64)[-0.638,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freebsd.dk]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.24)[0.237,0]; IP_SCORE(0.04)[ip: (0.06), ipnet: 130.225.0.0/16(0.07), asn: 1835(0.08), country: EU(-0.01)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[phk@phk.freebsd.dk,phk@critter.freebsd.dk]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:1835, ipnet:130.225.0.0/16, country:EU]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[phk@phk.freebsd.dk,phk@critter.freebsd.dk]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 21:55:25 -0000 -------- In message <7CA80A6B-47C4-4B70-B590-01532A1D9DE4@cschubert.com>, Cy Schube= rt wr ites: >>>How would you support vi on a 3270, a different editor maybe? >> >>I have run vi(1) on a 3278(-compatible) connected with SNA to an >>Amdahl running UTS, but I have no idea how much magic were involved >>for that to not kill the CPU=3D2E >> >>At the very least either the 3174 or the 3745 must have been involved=3D= 2E > >Hmm interesting. Probably 3174 firmware to make it behave less like a = >block half duplex terminal. Yes, very much so. Olivetti ran a bunch of machines, you can find them in old USENet maps as "olive[a-z]" and some of those ran Amdahl UTS, and I used one of those for SVR4 work at Ivrea around 1989. I have no idea what the actual hardware was, but it was the first time I ever had to pipe df(1) into more(1) :-) -- = Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe = Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence= .