From owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sun Nov 22 00:30:28 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AABEA474A05 for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2020 00:30:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mail.lariat.net (mail.lariat.net [66.62.230.51]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Cdrm35bTjz3pN4 for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2020 00:30:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from Toshi.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.net@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.lariat.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA29768; Sat, 21 Nov 2020 17:30:16 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <202011220030.RAA29768@mail.lariat.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 17:30:08 -0700 To: Ralf Mardorf , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Sustainability of switching power supplies In-Reply-To: <20201121092444.2355c5a7@utnubu> References: <20201121092444.2355c5a7@utnubu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Cdrm35bTjz3pN4 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of brett@lariat.org designates 66.62.230.51 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=brett@lariat.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.70 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RBL_DBL_DONT_QUERY_IPS(0.00)[66.62.230.51:from]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[lariat.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; SPAMHAUS_ZRD(0.00)[66.62.230.51:from:127.0.2.255]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.997]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[zoho.com,freebsd.org]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:19092, ipnet:66.62.228.0/22, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-chat] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.34 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 00:30:28 -0000 At 01:24 AM 11/21/2020, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-chat wrote: >My experiences with modern computer power supplies aren't bad, but >my impression about switching power supplies in almost everything and >the sustainability of this approach ... voltage undersized caps etc. >isn't good. Not sure what you mean by "sustainability" here. If you mean their environmental impact, well, it depends. If properly designed, switchers are more efficient than linear supplies, generate less heat, and waste less energy. However, because they're more complex and contain more toxic metals and more solder, they have the potential to generate more harmful waste when they're retired. If you mean reliability, they're actually pretty close. Switchers are more resistant to power surges (because they can withstand higher input voltages with no damage) but suffer due to their complexity; there are more parts to fail. And the part that fails most often in power supplies - the electrolytic capacitor - is present in both types. (The "capacitor plague" of the last decade is still haunting us today, because even now millions of power supplies made with the faulty capacitors are still in use and/or still in supply chains. But even good electrolytics are essentially quick-charging batteries and do fail more often than other components.) That's why Glass's Law of Electronic Diagnosis states: Whenever you are asked about the failure of an electronic device, simply say, "It's the power suppply." You will be correct about 99% of the time, and since you came up with the right answer before you even looked, you'll be considered to be either psychic or a bloody genius. ;-) --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sun Nov 22 03:04:14 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D84D247AF1E for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2020 03:04:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from soralx@cydem.org) Received: from smtp.triumf.ca (smtp.triumf.ca [142.90.100.195]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Cdw9T746Tz4TB1 for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2020 03:04:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from soralx@cydem.org) Received: from mscad14 (mscad14.triumf.ca [142.90.115.36]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.triumf.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D891F804; Sat, 21 Nov 2020 19:04:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 19:04:10 -0800 From: To: Brett Glass Cc: Ralf Mardorf , Subject: Re: Sustainability of switching power supplies Message-ID: <20201121190410.05900614@mscad14> In-Reply-To: <202011220030.RAA29768@mail.lariat.net> References: <20201121092444.2355c5a7@utnubu> <202011220030.RAA29768@mail.lariat.net> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.5 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd9.3) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Cdw9T746Tz4TB1 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=neutral (mx1.freebsd.org: 142.90.100.195 is neither permitted nor denied by domain of soralx@cydem.org) smtp.mailfrom=soralx@cydem.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.67 / 15.00]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_NEUTRAL(0.00)[?all]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cydem.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[142.90.100.195:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.97)[-0.968]; FROM_NO_DN(0.00)[]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36391, ipnet:142.90.64.0/18, country:CA]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-chat]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[zoho.com,freebsd.org] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.34 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 03:04:14 -0000 > [...] > and/or still in supply chains. But even good electrolytics are essentially > quick-charging batteries and do fail more often than other components.) > > That's why Glass's Law of Electronic Diagnosis states: Whenever you > are asked about the > failure of an electronic device, simply say, "It's the power suppply." These days, the law does not hold. Power supply failures are rather infrequent, and will be encountered even less in the future. Most products utilize switching PSUs nowadays (due to low cost, size & & weight, and efficiency). Thanks to improvements in solid-state electronics, switching frequencies in MHz range are now the norm; fast-switching PSUs require relatively little capacitance in high- -current paths, which can be satisfied with reliable MLCC (ceramic) and polymer types. Semiconductor devices used in modern mainstream PSUs run much cooler that before, too, so have exponentially longer life (in accordance with Arrhenius equation). > You will be correct about 99% of the time, and since you came up > with the right answer > before you even looked, you'll be considered to be either psychic > or a bloody genius. ;-) > > --Brett Glass -- [SorAlx] ridin' VN2000 Classic LT From owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sun Nov 22 09:35:16 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99AD72EADF7 for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2020 09:35:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from silver.bullet@zoho.com) Received: from sender4-pp-o94.zoho.com (sender4-pp-o94.zoho.com [136.143.188.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Cf4rg1YNkz4mwm for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2020 09:35:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from silver.bullet@zoho.com) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1606037711; cv=none; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; b=F2NM3X0JSd98SMnoZaxRVXZzzqlZz/UKyLJCodPsMsPkkdu37l3HAwM/o7gVqh0igT5iFGwLscs4P3DtANBL+12hm9UZ9/+flT2CTkgIWq2JgjBfVunygz7qNFoIpwfT+KCNWIG6j/L98UmDxJpxTBXSs3SYhzOegR9l/2kYZv4= ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; t=1606037711; h=Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Date:From:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Message-ID:References:Subject:To; bh=2wkdRoK2cYP9PtBOpBTpslkEfn43yrx0/NPZwDl2x0g=; b=YfA3amj5LVXTM8yjvKcibnTOAvFh0xjVUT43uD7Vq6kkbMqY49WtQwvMWhW4qdVvTdFua085ID0xj68KCn8J1pwdifVm1SWxTWiQY5zfpaiR2uCzlT7ljIhRm9Mefju9qJReN2cZVOgQKlmJaSkuD1TE8N/JQoBKQVE28qX77nk= ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.zohomail.com; dkim=pass header.i=zoho.com; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=silver.bullet@zoho.com; dmarc=pass header.from= header.from= Received: from utnubu (dynamic-002-244-073-214.2.244.pool.telefonica.de [2.244.73.214]) by mx.zohomail.com with SMTPS id 16060377080821002.6698860444503; Sun, 22 Nov 2020 01:35:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 10:35:17 +0100 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sustainability of switching power supplies Message-ID: <20201122103517.2487bf60@utnubu> In-Reply-To: <202011220030.RAA29768@mail.lariat.net> References: <20201121092444.2355c5a7@utnubu> <202011220030.RAA29768@mail.lariat.net> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ZohoMailClient: External X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Cf4rg1YNkz4mwm X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.49 / 15.00]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[zoho.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:136.143.188.0/24]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[zoho.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[zoho.com,reject]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[2.244.73.214:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[zoho.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:2639, ipnet:136.143.188.0/23, country:US]; RBL_DBL_DONT_QUERY_IPS(0.00)[136.143.188.94:from]; ARC_ALLOW(-1.00)[zohomail.com:s=zohoarc:i=1]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[zoho.com:dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[zoho.com:s=zm2020]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(1.00)[1.000]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; SPAMHAUS_ZRD(0.00)[136.143.188.94:from:127.0.2.255]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[136.143.188.94:from]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-chat] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.34 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 09:35:16 -0000 On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 17:30:08 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: >At 01:24 AM 11/21/2020, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-chat wrote: > >That's why Glass's Law of Electronic Diagnosis states: Whenever you >are asked about the failure of an electronic device, simply say, "It's >the power suppply." > >You will be correct about 99% of the time That's exactly my experiences with gear using switching power supplies, but not with gear using classic power supplies. And yes, when I ask for "sustainability" everything should be taken into account. The better efficiency, but also other variables, such as special waste, if the device is borked.