From nobody Fri May 26 17:25:46 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4QSWzJ1Z40z4CgsX for ; Fri, 26 May 2023 17:25:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4QSWzJ0sXQz46hh; Fri, 26 May 2023 17:25:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1685121948; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=mOtmFjW/4EDOZMP1LR7ZjCt+OnzD9y7Hda61OkgGC9Q=; b=cB4jILNyr/sypsZej+GGhJCHeE9q7lWepYMd5NFZtczuWw+KsqTXTctJCXtoC/u2dAPzo/ pf6pt76f4jTYpnB9PAXwmxRrsRQeg+/E8P5EsibLPPxGvUjfHjw3j5oePDd6t/5Pqgs0T6 YCpn6j5+qBEdi0sQh86Tt2UADFc4vQugR+zbXuTo/R1GALboXLNHq9yFloAMKfVgJVSykz 1g2UJ7D8TILXvkjBDKgD19k7cXR+siFvRPufNtRI4ez2jFtSROOP4imE8AQ1Lbks3Wbflv OsuCq3sWgdxlDWM6K+mKj1XH7mi0OtihWq8Dfmd9BrZ2/t4WnSQEh+c+F+I1kw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1685121948; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=mOtmFjW/4EDOZMP1LR7ZjCt+OnzD9y7Hda61OkgGC9Q=; b=OtzO4gtECVUZq+G0HUu/wU2CzWo/Tg1BRsCeWfceUJyuAF/f3EOLjH3SV+jLobCyfD9nBY yX9Ms/Mu6yXytgN2rDG5CLi8H/2hW1GwKIxlaymhenLzVMSKEfdMsVu8/zwwxOHFLeh6dp 4ifsM1U9xQipNxdiTQYZGZOp1pdk321It+r1EQYWnlEjZfdpCVf8sgfZioy4bIN19BGta4 tz4rc/SX/FSy2aCAd1GDTII+iBp0nOcwV1jbVONZtGgjk6duNH5zJN6lSA4VLWDk/lfyjA TAZ6bvaCkFYvoy4iS9lrwh8iA8hRE5P9Ut04VPzhd881+C1CmyjOZkjCtqG1CA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1685121948; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=A5IyPD+5f/4gU2yaABcU1o6w7Vvrvu2igyFrXi2pDQvvHFicE9e7Bm/eIdzsG4LQtxoBc+ jMoUQ2fVvzKk+5smSsRNAiHmw096ZdRG1j461WwOhA0u27HIw5+b1o+YUSRb9AR2MXzhAN RKtuBz9CNs5cXUZuLVk4XzigXNur0YOIrHBhtHaG3n0yFSZ+kFOaI5TCw512VytCtG44t/ yiAW5UdWi3KAGMXLyXGEsCEQgNsFF7Ml7BNjRxCwf2s+gXIRFRVwWsS6Q4iOnTZ/MB3ATx aIMQ9CWFQKjf/gGYFDy6+3E3WGcO/56RGxa/g7f4V6sbIyuFkcRH4MfjCGcqCg== Received: from [IPV6:2601:648:8680:16b0:28bd:79fa:758b:79b7] (unknown [IPv6:2601:648:8680:16b0:28bd:79fa:758b:79b7]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: jhb) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4QSWzH3gTGz147q; Fri, 26 May 2023 17:25:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <9f41e5d5-2139-b6fc-c4f6-9ed7a9106a0c@FreeBSD.org> Date: Fri, 26 May 2023 10:25:46 -0700 List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.11.0 Subject: Re: Future of 32-bit platforms (including i386) Content-Language: en-US To: Tomek CEDRO , Peter Jeremy Cc: Warner Losh , freebsd-arch References: From: John Baldwin In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On 5/26/23 8:31 AM, Tomek CEDRO wrote: > On Fri, May 26, 2023 at 11:21 AM Peter Jeremy wrote: >> On 2023-May-24 03:49:55 +0200, Tomek CEDRO wrote: >>> I saw that info too.. but are we going to allow Intel dictate future >>> of computers and supported platforms to The FreeBSD Project? >> I don't see that as the FreeBSD Project allowing Intel to dictate its >> future direction but rather more exidence that chip vendors are also >> deprecating 32-bit support. >> >>> I am >>> convinced that everyone will move to RISC-V pretty soon anyway :-) >> Note that FreeBSD doesn't support 32-bit RISC-V > > Thanks Peter.. I know 64-bit is now easier to maintain both in > software and hardware domain.. I just don't like "Enforced Changes > Ideologies" so things that worked well needs to be "just deleted and > replaced".. in most cases this is what destroys our current world.. > its like history rewrite.. maybe marking code as "obsolete" / > "unsupported" / "abandoned" just for anyone ever wanting to play with > the code ever again rather than removing the code and leaving nothing > for the future.. I don't know what are the plans but I think code for > porting to other platforms should be preserved for various reasons > even when obsoleted it will be solid source of knowledge :-) git rm does not remove history. The code will always be available, unlike issues some folks have raised with historical commerical software that is now "dead" as the owners of that software have gone away, etc. But also, FreeBSD has been purging support for older things for a while now. There are no more drivers for ISA adapters in the tree for example including PCCard. We as a Project do not have infinite developer resources and have to make wise decisions about where to invest those limited resources. (See also the alpha, sun4v, ia64, sparc64, pc98, and mips architecture support) -- John Baldwin From nobody Sun May 28 16:08:32 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4QTk9f08JQz4XYhP for ; Sun, 28 May 2023 16:08:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marklmi@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic301-22.consmr.mail.gq1.yahoo.com (sonic301-22.consmr.mail.gq1.yahoo.com [98.137.64.148]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4QTk9c3Tc1z3J2H for ; Sun, 28 May 2023 16:08:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marklmi@yahoo.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=yahoo.com header.s=s2048 header.b=Puuxf9gy; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of marklmi@yahoo.com designates 98.137.64.148 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=marklmi@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=yahoo.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1685290130; bh=vDUTZvcB8pjjD8T+gjHb6a1EknYr4zPKPXXB5xvFtdU=; h=From:Subject:Date:To:References:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=Puuxf9gyrcU2b452VkOQyjgqzcdbxeKMgxKAI3g04aZdzdM5BbSt1d/lTKIxMD7ByzULxYiWK0PfM3jcL6hvoyZoOM+m40bpxVOfgCSo30u7nYLO1XXXD1fkuqffS/M8Ul2Kv9YsYfBVIEEhiYdjaKU7/f1su+lzrZZcZEVglF6JWszr7kUM9G0jIKNMdQ+smbaKg0+WOJuohTs5yOBtWrLkNSv8QZX6lrrG1RI6oBUJjPxFOxGiCBwn13NvmEgVXd3c0M1PqLIS0dhmXzZIhyL7SU8SX3+Cq51KEE9bMPjTmQ7wdW23FBJVONTcXyZNcKDf9cERTVZ8cknGvZWV2A== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1685290130; bh=+x3WFjZ2dCF4HvnbEDQl50oVUNPLh+LgYKBZ9Clztcf=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:Subject:Date:To:From:Subject; b=lzInGTcvg/n7qfl4R6cNIHzCPEMzAmZsgC5LawTTjFGXsUXhUKpOncHW1JkzcyLT+7cRbE+sfjtqv2gofh6plgSlsjLKFT2S89vjhnuH2J88b6cnHTHAWAyB20K55zL3QsR7bUaJMjxjaGUetok8o6D6PxYhGEhpPridg/bJsCKF69JRiPt9emBC0IZBWfaGA0qDedcNG5ktoKYqT1qWfr4JIuJ7ydx3+1ecssR54WwBwFjHxZsZlJsbiDBYoqsDF1SLKbfQNtBhpciHk2MEpD4G8XL+mkuXYNsTWFQTLL/t9cix8BQCfDSqH4gTctoTcbC0digdDoE/N1nynDAKjw== X-YMail-OSG: 0gJpYtcVM1kirlx1oiLZFKUvaEXKoKMh7xIz7BDmD2mcUifEyVz971wdrNlQPtC l4Fz7ZFjtvJZSoighZY2BEG1g5QqUx_uADB7nTDFmUBQGSj8AleMlDtyV3G.WIcDGEwTXPBww4pO IuHO3cpNh6xTa3QbVGb749cmFNlBM0.ik4BaWAxUW3VOaYDNR_.Hsv_3AxK8KnXa.SYKHGY5iyin qFKXxAgtRCuhINyFcBxejRR7DinXPHIjYxoT6FaV3MDQw7NMCbWPreg7vjPlisYLBIFf1cMlfQg0 NWXABIiMv09uBUimLCBqCQrrtVMaPygWURjLcZPLNbddaPR9.3Vp1P3tN7MCQmcloB3.2HpQg3vR yZLkhI5mski7w0uWoNW8lziQe8R_Z7fh0vqpPtCdYXngCtc4Hg.O0b3Q8KpZtuo36kn1XKwlHRCP asTvze4Y91.wsVhuiLphcD102O7PBUZ98yoDlkmLeNaPVQZhuwc5PHI.QCPOnYFTbAvBx_FBnZN2 t_g06w3nou6NktbAZGVq7tjZYQkN.zWUVJwTalRNpW5C6jFwoYa7CXwNEkYcySktB5fmNlxN44Pw 3U5k0.DWlT8P8NEh9csGlT.058RGGoFODq7ScptUWjgYt7Sj3pzD_rBoZfjH8_NYIINSM9hmIcNX eoz46fDuyua_.825B4.4Elk1AqfpNCjVxLmnHsK7.4JAzIhv4o4hJdBhJ2yCzK9EUInKBmdLmFal Xa11IKRN7vYP_oTTWCxPqWEp0feTsDFnvd6H_h7wtSizXI1l5WBIdOqpRbEsNUzabs6.tE_vRvXQ IASM4VnL_dlZpSmTHLgo1.8aF3y2q34AwY.0Ket17QGysBqzlpbq8x3z6ocl_.6YpeaObg5Cchaq DR.OQXwvhFDkno7lfcU5ebuTNV1I7OQe50Bw4Z9j74ggmpDOHoGQ0ubrWHRPxFbcWhnaiHUu.e1u Qx28nXwLFa0QREUtHDgKP2FpcnLFIMxn45toAZS94GaFjIiRleDoQag.yQ3JVhcI34FnhcHcdm6_ cxdO625jkFOqWdDhTCQVwJpgZESFRMrKjZt_VCLqpBWFZKBL0qnk8uYcEcMFqm_G4YjsEgXqAmLU IqxcbAdvkKWDW2LccRE0hfadY1wp9x29iTECvtAgdT0sCqWEDJev4CV_YXY1IacNcRF_ZW11B1fF b40Wx3OLdFiStdi1x8zlIO1VA.zqmOB0F0HSXwVBJH16xCk2QmO7fdTeM.HacDyN2Ti7WPccbPLJ 6O8cUq.91tH7.kciYSnTCHDVtaLW.dCf7k.tLoVkpDFayKFRFvH94o04AHlY0fEXeTJbHHK3xgTd yLu5L6XNE6_XlMgwG0nSX3FAoSQzB5cSvRjtRf12OGMBS7bTWVEeOeHk63r36V4V8kaUA_qq52Es qsSwHzSwOQp4L18DPM2UdIMFJKaym67TaQFwDPpZA0mX0wGY5ESN8IFpU4n1wuRMJUqGbCaMEHYV nwpX77sSMHk0n6AKPNWRbNYKlkZxc3LEM6A9eE8xfoiUEgOl_VrWFr_ZgRkpKzrrJLP8qzANihTa VdQaZYlqqYwK9tEs9SvngFqKTMgf9HYhWGIxiKP1jGyGGE4QGMUtB8lY27b_yUmzQRJFnZFvah0e 3DlU2JFvHpLwj8Q1h3.HvB7a3RfmrCBns2ob7_EtT6ywbeOWupdW6wo5j.R1ya4X1_WtdUBm3Mj2 9B74R..O.P5C9GT.dawuOZ.jkSg8oa7XoUCwNBhxR9mzq4sUVR9ahP1pwLD3OQH2RaMlGjje7pHJ LQQqDaQhT8ZNOPK752ouei2opZ.dtd.uMLUTV8yQIxiIrsKcZv1LMQtKZ4rNQBiBWpV1Oyz4tJe8 iLszeQnpjgi3MTSCndciadVU0aVNqm5Ksim3AIVH3zdvabuSSa8ZDxG4o_OlCpWsJt4Ch_JVTy5C Q6r1Z2PpsI8siQO0BDNhFCD0Fwkufq5aRISO2gWy5vWcPanJM.UTboDhI4KNPuqPne0ypiuYIwVa sJlfVusC3bgsoFFWXpm7BVKFQEgiKWmo6wNuHMRKCz2NGZRdv8pzvB1eKXsDeetNbMrJ6muqHp1K 9kbvpCWXRnxkTf6DmMUc1HlukqtmYHJ2wVJUMjV__jabrqsp.HSaMBp0_CGSJARXvRWNRCJ7OEtD YTLKehR4CZMqUgue8G6UeQxf1G.rrkKb9cA6BYUIZW4TVuGs9L83gC.G_oAMmYkCy1He8EF7s.XX XcQIJvlrlQFDOH50x9c1D0_fGzi7rhJkVOlPEFVNMfU.5bBnw8V7ov2.ShWoCBBKItmF4I9k9eAO P3Nw- X-Sonic-MF: X-Sonic-ID: 010eacf0-5447-479a-940e-8e72e3e37090 Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic301.consmr.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 28 May 2023 16:08:50 +0000 Received: by hermes--production-ne1-574d4b7954-glkdx (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 0755ef16a79b9355a74164382ab50063; Sun, 28 May 2023 16:08:44 +0000 (UTC) From: Mark Millard Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3731.400.51.1.1\)) Subject: Re: Future of 32-bit platforms (including i386) Message-Id: <00E63ECC-2E7B-4C9F-9903-A8BD67278C00@yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 28 May 2023 09:08:32 -0700 To: Emmanuel Vadot , freebsd-arch X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.400.51.1.1) References: <00E63ECC-2E7B-4C9F-9903-A8BD67278C00.ref@yahoo.com> X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.23 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.73)[-0.726]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com:dkim]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[98.137.64.148:from]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36647, ipnet:98.137.64.0/20, country:US]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-arch@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[98.137.64.148:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4QTk9c3Tc1z3J2H X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N Emmanuel Vadot wrote on Date: Wed, 24 May 2023 06:35:55 UTC : > . . . >=20 > I personnaly see armv7 in "degraded maintainance mode" since 13.0, > nothing really intersting was added, no new SoC support even if there > was some interesting one that we could support, no new drivers for > supported platforms. We even lost TI BeagleBone support because no one > really have the time to keep support up to date. > I still have some little cute boards that I want to use from time to > time but the lack of proper porting of new language (like rust and = iirc > go have problems too) is making new software unusable on those boards > (you can't even make some "smart speaker" for spotify as all the > spotify clients are in rust). > IMX6 support is stalled since ian@ passed away and mmel@ isn't very > active atm and they were both the most actives developers for armv7 = low > level code. One of the things for tier 2 is: (from https://docs.freebsd.org/en/articles/committers-guide/#archs 21.4. Tier 2 section) QUOTE Collectively, developers are required to provide the following to maintain the Tier 2 status of a platform: =E2=80=A2 Tier 2 architectures must have an active ecosystem of = users and developers. END QUOTE Is there an implication that, even for 14, the "developers" part of that for armv7 has dropped off to the point that tier 2 would reasonably be in question? =3D=3D=3D Mark Millard marklmi at yahoo.com From nobody Mon May 29 19:53:44 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4QVR6s4j65z4Wq7Z for ; Mon, 29 May 2023 19:53:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pierre@freebsdfoundation.org) Received: from mail-yb1-xb2e.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4QVR6r5GQPz4JMS for ; Mon, 29 May 2023 19:53:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pierre@freebsdfoundation.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=freebsdfoundation.org header.s=gfnp-20170908 header.b="e0PM/SW2"; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of pierre@freebsdfoundation.org designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2e as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pierre@freebsdfoundation.org; dmarc=none Received: by mail-yb1-xb2e.google.com with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-ba8374001abso5279097276.2 for ; Mon, 29 May 2023 12:53:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsdfoundation.org; s=gfnp-20170908; t=1685390036; x=1687982036; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=CtdE76udItCQWe3tJK1IP70zbSB/Zep70bh/wb24UBQ=; b=e0PM/SW2YrldDs/X1Z314cf65QBc0iTtedihTWGWjZe0e92PRGkJPA7PcTT2PaALyr ccP95JChOA6TRRb0JMtrN/3VBuSoKWBZjiVXWZTVBnzsMRbb6XW2jKtUR9Bq4M8ZPUNk kaWjOvo/wkmOS16HhiWPRvYmV0heVUb6p08fwAeuhS80u0dBZgv/sG7wH3BZhuTruecS DQ/763On1YoXLvrAPRHGsfQo6SdCtKWUEgq7Xg8lU1E31ejcSj50PDg/+W8RFMd5H0CT qvg6N5eRf4etud3rugMC4bV81QPJjFUri7djEd8jUGcQvr7Me5BZY6spOMk7LdfJDe1s j6pw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1685390036; x=1687982036; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=CtdE76udItCQWe3tJK1IP70zbSB/Zep70bh/wb24UBQ=; b=jZlkS/FgvjRVnrHq6+3rQjdTu3wcYwMp9hES6SwDtk3rvyYWqg7gEWXKiNJ77gDuRi 6aKmFKFLxfNAJ2ct/K11IXmeB6ykSueDhM2YRhSXFRBTftG0tqhM+toSr0GDby9NrvWQ zMx9T8nXZaobQKkxWWj8w+W3KJmMTfD1e1qJb/2J2kepwzmgSQnWrRKTsH2yjEjq8Fa+ WIO9BDffqGOubpBFaLwgW/ozJVAb26S+koq04D1f411F/eBf977hnVRqRrVQ7zopw6/I FHwSnptKN5rV1NV5EE+BQGVAhcAc1bOhgcw5IZpi0GexoyKmWnmvx/6JPvglWuiQ1jMx yFkA== X-Gm-Message-State: AC+VfDx3EIF1xXD2Ktr3iPUZlzGYuZUV259Xo3WydY5Qp5K5aO9ygI5Y lyShPA3xC7LDZ7BVu3JBu9WczYro4gHvFm8VzQK8GCRt X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACHHUZ6Nw5k25zzJW6CY0gNLdehjM7aqNkUpGxEAWi43W7ioIcgfUIQFlY6yyiZ6LCdNVhImSr+q2wJQoxZrLh3KFeY= X-Received: by 2002:a0d:d854:0:b0:565:9e48:2597 with SMTP id a81-20020a0dd854000000b005659e482597mr11795696ywe.50.1685390035946; Mon, 29 May 2023 12:53:55 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Pierre Pronchery Date: Mon, 29 May 2023 13:53:44 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: OpenSSL 3.0 for 14.0-RELEASE: issues with 1.x/3.x symbol clashing, ports linking against base OpenSSL, ports that don't compile/link against OpenSSL 3, etc To: Kyle Evans Cc: Enji Cooper , Antoine Brodin , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000066a7b105fcda72fe" X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.50 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.999]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[freebsdfoundation.org:s=gfnp-20170908]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-arch@freebsd.org]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2e:from]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; BLOCKLISTDE_FAIL(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2e:server fail]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[gmail.com,freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[freebsdfoundation.org:+]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freebsdfoundation.org]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-arch@freebsd.org]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4QVR6r5GQPz4JMS X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --00000000000066a7b105fcda72fe Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Kyle, everyone, Thanks for the hints! Unfortunately I am still not able to make your solution work. With "SUBDIR_DEPEND_modules=3D libcrypto" (no "S") and "SUBDIR_PARALLEL=3D" the build fails with: "make[4]: make[4]: don't know how to make all_subdir_secure/lib/libcrypto/libcrypto. Stop" I'm looking at other places in the source tree to try to reproduce the behaviour we want. In the meantime what I did is to remove LIBADD=3Dcrypto in modules/Makefile.inc, but I am not sure yet if this is going to work or not= . Cheers, -- Pierre On Thu, May 11, 2023 at 9:45=E2=80=AFAM Kyle Evans wro= te: > On Thu, May 11, 2023 at 9:54=E2=80=AFAM Enji Cooper wrote: > > > > > > > On May 11, 2023, at 00:23, Antoine Brodin wrote= : > > > > > > =EF=BB=BFOn Thu, May 11, 2023 at 6:31=E2=80=AFAM Pierre Pronchery > > > wrote: > > >> > > >> Hi everyone, > > >> > > >> It's been a long and tough fight, but I finally managed to complete = a > > >> `make buildworld` on amd64 with the latest state of my work on OpenS= SL > > >> 3; see https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/pull/740 for a first > draft > > >> of a pull-request via GitHub. > > >> > > >> I will probably not be able to work on this again until the DevSummi= t > at > > >> BSDCan, so feel free to take it from there until then. > > >> > > >> HTH! > > >> -- khorben > > > > > > Thanks, I have this error during buildworld: > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D> secure/lib/libcrypto/modules/fips (all) > > > make[6]: > /usr/obj/poudriere/data/src-openssl3/amd64.amd64/secure/lib/libcrypto/mod= ules/fips/.depend, > > > 1: ignoring stale .depend for > > > > /usr/obj/poudriere/data/src-openssl3/amd64.amd64/tmp/usr/lib/libcrypto.a > > > building shared library fips.so > > > cc -target x86_64-unknown-freebsd14.0 > > > --sysroot=3D/usr/obj/poudriere/data/src-openssl3/amd64.amd64/tmp > > > -B/usr/obj/poudriere/data/src-openssl3/amd64.amd64/tmp/usr/bin > > > -Wl,-zrelro -fstack-protector-strong -shared -Wl,-x > > > -Wl,--fatal-warnings -Wl,--warn-shared-textrel -o fips.so.full > > > -Wl,-soname,fips.so fips_entry.pico fipsprov.pico self_test.pico > > > self_test_kats.pico -lcrypto > > > ld: error: unable to find library -lcrypto > > > cc: error: linker command failed with exit code 1 (use -v to see > invocation) > > > *** Error code 1 > > > > Good find! > > > > The modules directory will likely need to be built in a later stage of > world (after libcrypto has been installed). That, or LDFLAGS needs to be > adjusted to find libcrypto in the build tree. > > > > I suspect it's a fairly simple one, actually: move all of the parts > that actually build libcrypto into a subdir of secure/lib/libcrypto > and make sure there's a proper SUBDIR_DEPENDS_modules=3D libcrypto. The > module is built in secure/lib/libcrypto/Makefile, but I would guess > either it's racing the build of modules/ (SUBDIR) against the build of > the module in the parent Makefile, or it's just going to build the > SUBDIR first every time. I don't recall the exact behavior of make > here. > > libcrypto is in _prebuild_libs, but I don't think we have any way you > can actually tell we're in the prebuild phase to avoid SUBDIR'ing in > the modules/ while we're doing the earlier build. If we did, the later > all pass should descend back into libcrypto/ and do nothing for the > lib itself but build the modules. > > Thanks, > > Kyle Evans > --00000000000066a7b105fcda72fe Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Kyle, everyone,

Thanks for the= hints!

Unfortunately I am still not able to make your s= olution work. With "SUBDIR_DEPEND_modules=3D libcrypto" (no "= ;S") and "SUBDIR_PARALLEL=3D" the build fails with:
"make[4]: make[4]: don't know how to make all_subdir_secure/lib/= libcrypto/libcrypto. Stop"

I'm looking at= other places in the source tree to try to reproduce the behaviour we want.=

In the meantime what I did is to remove LIBADD=3D= crypto in modules/Makefile.inc, but I am not sure yet if this is going to w= ork or not.

Cheers,
-- Pierre

On Th= u, May 11, 2023 at 9:45=E2=80=AFAM Kyle Evans <kevans@freebsd.org> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);pa= dding-left:1ex">On Thu, May 11, 2023 at 9:54=E2=80=AFAM Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.c= om> wrote:
>
>
> > On May 11, 2023, at 00:23, Antoine Brodin <antoine@freebsd.org> wrote: > >
> > =EF=BB=BFOn Thu, May 11, 2023 at 6:31=E2=80=AFAM Pierre Pronchery=
> > <pierre@freebsdfoundation.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Hi eve= ryone,
> >>
> >> It's been a long and tough fight, but I finally managed t= o complete a
> >> `make buildworld` on amd64 with the latest state of my work o= n OpenSSL
> >> 3; see https://github.com/freebsd/freeb= sd-src/pull/740 for a first draft
> >> of a pull-request via GitHub.
> >>
> >> I will probably not be able to work on this again until the D= evSummit at
> >> BSDCan, so feel free to take it from there until then.
> >>
> >> HTH!
> >> -- khorben
> >
> > Thanks,=C2=A0 I have this error during buildworld:
> >
> > =3D=3D=3D> secure/lib/libcrypto/modules/fips (all)
> > make[6]: /usr/obj/poudriere/data/src-openssl3/amd64.amd64/secure/= lib/libcrypto/modules/fips/.depend,
> > 1: ignoring stale .depend for
> > /usr/obj/poudriere/data/src-openssl3/amd64.amd64/tmp/usr/lib/libc= rypto.a
> > building shared library fips.so
> > cc -target x86_64-unknown-freebsd14.0
> > --sysroot=3D/usr/obj/poudriere/data/src-openssl3/amd64.amd64/tmp<= br> > > -B/usr/obj/poudriere/data/src-openssl3/amd64.amd64/tmp/usr/bin > > -Wl,-zrelro=C2=A0 =C2=A0-fstack-protector-strong -shared -Wl,-x > > -Wl,--fatal-warnings -Wl,--warn-shared-textrel=C2=A0 -o fips.so.f= ull
> > -Wl,-soname,fips.so fips_entry.pico fipsprov.pico self_test.pico<= br> > > self_test_kats.pico=C2=A0 -lcrypto
> > ld: error: unable to find library -lcrypto
> > cc: error: linker command failed with exit code 1 (use -v to see = invocation)
> > *** Error code 1
>
> Good find!
>
> The modules directory will likely need to be built in a later stage of= world (after libcrypto has been installed). That, or LDFLAGS needs to be a= djusted to find libcrypto in the build tree.
>

I suspect it's a fairly simple one, actually: move all of the parts
that actually build libcrypto into a subdir of secure/lib/libcrypto
and make sure there's a proper SUBDIR_DEPENDS_modules=3D libcrypto. The=
module is built in secure/lib/libcrypto/Makefile, but I would guess
either it's racing the build of modules/ (SUBDIR) against the build of<= br> the module in the parent Makefile, or it's just going to build the
SUBDIR first every time. I don't recall the exact behavior of make
here.

libcrypto is in _prebuild_libs, but I don't think we have any way you can actually tell we're in the prebuild phase to avoid SUBDIR'ing i= n
the modules/ while we're doing the earlier build. If we did, the later<= br> all pass should descend back into libcrypto/ and do nothing for the
lib itself but build the modules.

Thanks,

Kyle Evans
--00000000000066a7b105fcda72fe-- From nobody Tue May 30 13:47:44 2023 X-Original-To: arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4QVtyD3Bzxz4XXDJ for ; Tue, 30 May 2023 13:48:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from eric@vangyzen.net) Received: from smtp.vangyzen.net (hotblack.vangyzen.net [IPv6:2607:fc50:1000:7400:216:3eff:fe72:314f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4QVtyC1S2zz4NfD for ; Tue, 30 May 2023 13:48:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from eric@vangyzen.net) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=vangyzen.net header.s=default header.b=d3WTpNn9; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of eric@vangyzen.net designates 2607:fc50:1000:7400:216:3eff:fe72:314f as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=eric@vangyzen.net; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=vangyzen.net Received: from smtpclient.apple (24-236-44-43-dynamic.midco.net [24.236.44.43]) by smtp.vangyzen.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 20BC556486 for ; Tue, 30 May 2023 08:47:56 -0500 (CDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=vangyzen.net; s=default; t=1685454476; bh=0UEucyeDBp7FRlSbYJu+cJ3auBFkMCsOJq8ATL9gN6I=; h=From:Subject:Date:To; b=d3WTpNn9NOb58jTytErFzwReRiGVSO3Hm/+9wvt0yD8a3PtkkQR1P9DKAILyAJsLn XKATzqSCCDcvuSz82WGUkCFNvNaIjTc4rZoNrtuuxaCL5Kglhi+TEjWW2JInNV/ALa HbFP5Xd0lC2gHK2/pQbN+pkkrB6vGsYdAGBJnyXaBKXpgOT9uJ0Vd74MpB5jjN6AFM LEQcckcMBoJYstexxddT3vRIU33spi4M2J654IwlBriRtQbGmbjXTgf28JN0O71Msx OjQcdeojrliz2uNiWtCMWfuqdYw+uoDv0OCyurhAhYdqT4dZYy/XGapsrCcQpR4Pn5 vhbBr3i7oXPFQ== From: Eric van Gyzen Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_AA8BF6CE-DB2D-4A7B-AA70-F971D1929C5A" List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3731.500.231\)) Subject: D40260: change cron to MIT license Message-Id: <1C3804AA-5CF6-4275-BDAA-45F94C86C55A@vangyzen.net> Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 08:47:44 -0500 To: arch@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.500.231) X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.50 / 15.00]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[5]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.999]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[vangyzen.net,none]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[vangyzen.net:s=default]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[arch@freebsd.org]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[arch@freebsd.org]; BLOCKLISTDE_FAIL(0.00)[2607:fc50:1000:7400:216:3eff:fe72:314f:server fail,24.236.44.43:server fail]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[vangyzen.net:+]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[eric]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36236, ipnet:2607:fc50:1000::/36, country:US]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4QVtyC1S2zz4NfD X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --Apple-Mail=_AA8BF6CE-DB2D-4A7B-AA70-F971D1929C5A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I would appreciate reviews and discussion on https://reviews.freebsd.org/ = D40260 = which aims to change the cron license to MIT by importing [most of] = vixie cron 4.0. Eric= --Apple-Mail=_AA8BF6CE-DB2D-4A7B-AA70-F971D1929C5A Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii I would appreciate reviews and discussion on


which aims to change the cron license to MIT by importing [most of] vixie cron 4.0.

Eric
--Apple-Mail=_AA8BF6CE-DB2D-4A7B-AA70-F971D1929C5A-- From nobody Tue May 30 14:36:58 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4QVw2r6FN5z4Xbk1 for ; Tue, 30 May 2023 14:37:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hps@selasky.org) Received: from mail.turbocat.net (turbocat.net [IPv6:2a01:4f8:c17:6c4b::2]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4QVw2q3SKLz4T1r; Tue, 30 May 2023 14:37:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hps@selasky.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of hps@selasky.org designates 2a01:4f8:c17:6c4b::2 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=hps@selasky.org; dmarc=none Received: from [10.36.2.145] (unknown [46.212.121.255]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail.turbocat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BD6712600D3; Tue, 30 May 2023 16:36:59 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <6dd8a279-1ccf-ea66-9009-3865a7865e1a@selasky.org> Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 16:36:58 +0200 List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.11.1 Subject: Re: Future of 32-bit platforms (including i386) To: Tomek CEDRO , Peter Jeremy Cc: Warner Losh , freebsd-arch References: Content-Language: en-US From: Hans Petter Selasky In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.92 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.89)[-0.894]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.72)[-0.724]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a:mail.turbocat.net]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-arch@freebsd.org]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:24940, ipnet:2a01:4f8::/32, country:DE]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[selasky.org]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4QVw2q3SKLz4T1r X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On 5/26/23 17:31, Tomek CEDRO wrote: > Thanks Peter.. I know 64-bit is now easier to maintain both in > software and hardware domain.. I just don't like "Enforced Changes > Ideologies" so things that worked well needs to be "just deleted and > replaced".. in most cases this is what destroys our current world.. > its like history rewrite.. maybe marking code as "obsolete" / > "unsupported" / "abandoned" just for anyone ever wanting to play with > the code ever again rather than removing the code and leaving nothing > for the future.. I don't know what are the plans but I think code for > porting to other platforms should be preserved for various reasons > even when obsoleted it will be solid source of knowledge 😄 Hi, I want to add, there are consumers of FreeBSD kernel code, like RTEMS and QNX. If someone wants to maintain for example the Network stack for a 32-bit platform outside of FreeBSD, how is FreeBSD thinking about that? What is the plan there? Instead of 128/64/32 -bit support it will be 128/64 -bit support (thinking about CheriBSD)? If 32-bit CPU and platform technology patents are about to expire, then keeping 32-bit support around could be a scoop for FreeBSD, even though 32-bit PC platforms are a patchwork of technologies, going from ISA, PnP to PCI and USB. Citing Warner Losh: > contains Intel's plans for the future. They have removed support for booting 16/32-bit and non-UEFI from their firmware as of 2020... And it is also well known how secure boot works, and allows Intel to control who can use their hardware components or not. I would not be surprised at all, if in the future, you would have to pay serious money to boot FreeBSD on desktop computers. Apple has already been doing this for many years. Given secure booting is not defined for 32-bit platforms, is this a strong argument to keep 32-bit support around? Personally I would see it as a big step backwards to boot up Windows or Apple first, then run VirtualBox or VMware, and then login to FreeBSD. Not only would it require you to constantly pull system updates for two systems, but it will totally screw performance. --HPS From nobody Tue May 30 15:25:17 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4QVx6Z72TBz4Xg75 for ; Tue, 30 May 2023 15:25:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hps@selasky.org) Received: from mail.turbocat.net (turbocat.net [88.99.82.50]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4QVx6Y4Z9qz4cV4; Tue, 30 May 2023 15:25:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hps@selasky.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of hps@selasky.org designates 88.99.82.50 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=hps@selasky.org; dmarc=none Received: from [10.36.2.145] (unknown [46.212.121.255]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.turbocat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 87944262DEC; Tue, 30 May 2023 17:25:17 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 17:25:17 +0200 List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.11.1 Subject: Re: Future of 32-bit platforms (including i386) Content-Language: en-US From: Hans Petter Selasky To: Tomek CEDRO , Peter Jeremy Cc: Warner Losh , freebsd-arch References: <6dd8a279-1ccf-ea66-9009-3865a7865e1a@selasky.org> In-Reply-To: <6dd8a279-1ccf-ea66-9009-3865a7865e1a@selasky.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.87 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.97)[-0.967]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.90)[-0.896]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.70)[-0.703]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a:mail.turbocat.net:c]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-arch@freebsd.org]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:24940, ipnet:88.99.0.0/16, country:DE]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[selasky.org]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4QVx6Y4Z9qz4cV4 X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On 5/30/23 16:36, Hans Petter Selasky wrote: > Personally I would see it as a big step backwards to boot up Windows or > Apple first, then run VirtualBox or VMware, and then login to FreeBSD. > Not only would it require you to constantly pull system updates for two > systems, but it will totally screw performance. .... USA is officially sanctioning Huawei. But still yet devices using the USB ID for Huawei are being enumerated just fine. I'm glad the world leaders today are of the age they are, and the bureaucrats below them know nothing about the weapons they possess and what damage they may actually do to the world! Not only do they want to bomb people to death. They want to delete their history, their names, their data, their products, everything. If there is no data, no name, no history. There was no war either. --HPS From nobody Tue May 30 17:55:40 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4QW0Ry5s5nz4XtTf for ; Tue, 30 May 2023 17:55:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4QW0Ry5Q7Vz3nNs; Tue, 30 May 2023 17:55:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1685469342; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=w3x4gK+CBcWPAcuXdj1K2tRf0f1hGvVVhd8JG9xhkdA=; b=CJpTRklwwMtRnekt/9FIdwYYyzGLMDet0mu5yPJy9de8chC9FtHk8IETEG34Y+71ml23o5 phVrGvKIxAgLh08cMrhstbxi/rgMn8fQy5b0jGkD9u2fnrSqkFc+GJNm23lo3gIG60ZPAH akJPYTlf26yP3lEN6Zw5SUflbpVIRVtc4VrSYZYbvaB2kWAhU8j2o8OEEhh6RA2ORDHiEb fcKfP5PCyges4/MrQkQDyQKDs0Pi/ygtri1WYu0nmpWHjzpO+Rg9gs1enb5xYPEaemHmDE l0t8gsVyJcs3SB/teigvd0g92IhnD1YGRcYOPkFDmzRdMTy2fK8MqPXJlqMi1w== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1685469342; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=w3x4gK+CBcWPAcuXdj1K2tRf0f1hGvVVhd8JG9xhkdA=; b=kR8afm8IEJxTAeXT1qgStgOr48BL803kKXoH0GNpCmzu8ouN/MJ2YIL+uDcl8Gq7IXjzh/ gIkVKrGj7aSWSH90g8qcGtX/N8U7cS3bZQ6h8XbDMLTzpXaH2hfE+O0odGNUtz+Yvh+KXd /Zki4OVYZJMrKi5vymcd2zwMWmn4YuTvQRf3oV5EDurOfzcJmgKslPzCmZ++iBt8HLSCpv ood5XePHAOGD+c5Sr21ntUaysD7ll7ztPWbDu1PgqlWINXUNQj7w7jBf03bISApwEzF094 x4EQcEr0oLh/lLvmWjtK1JnIZf44y+ZhtNtfpZoV1wXlP6bjj1VXY9fPqECthw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1685469342; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=r3oPF4RmLNww4iw1r8N3uBpcaWjHxJiNnyKKH+kYsICkKEChDXOFifGQuPGCYtTzMhkMQB DIdZ2D3nvr8+YjsPLfXY4H+ey6vaGBr+1Pniwk+zfwPQIeSg9efCFPepkmmMsi9ILfL++9 nOM1MmuPQAipd2GoV3WAKaA1ToghFWdhO08wgWt4IFThNhqFgWWCWAsokYbzVHFGxZI47H j03vF1HoIWJ0fxZQypzAiYI4fh8cSCif3PYy1OeOPLKuKv14RtMeRh5bqL8rZrhebROHgF CnZnRpwkDie50S9Sxs64wJd+IwsKtPlcfd92Wis7XimdVRR5f+cNaUi9al+J1g== Received: from [IPV6:2601:648:8680:16b0:b998:2010:344a:9cf2] (unknown [IPv6:2601:648:8680:16b0:b998:2010:344a:9cf2]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: jhb) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4QW0Ry0cwPzk3l; Tue, 30 May 2023 17:55:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <018790e3-3ede-2397-651a-69cc7567e903@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 10:55:40 -0700 List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.11.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Hans Petter Selasky , Tomek CEDRO , Peter Jeremy Cc: Warner Losh , freebsd-arch References: <6dd8a279-1ccf-ea66-9009-3865a7865e1a@selasky.org> From: John Baldwin Subject: Re: Future of 32-bit platforms (including i386) In-Reply-To: <6dd8a279-1ccf-ea66-9009-3865a7865e1a@selasky.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On 5/30/23 7:36 AM, Hans Petter Selasky wrote: > On 5/26/23 17:31, Tomek CEDRO wrote: >> Thanks Peter.. I know 64-bit is now easier to maintain both in >> software and hardware domain.. I just don't like "Enforced Changes >> Ideologies" so things that worked well needs to be "just deleted and >> replaced".. in most cases this is what destroys our current world.. >> its like history rewrite.. maybe marking code as "obsolete" / >> "unsupported" / "abandoned" just for anyone ever wanting to play with >> the code ever again rather than removing the code and leaving nothing >> for the future.. I don't know what are the plans but I think code for >> porting to other platforms should be preserved for various reasons >> even when obsoleted it will be solid source of knowledge 😄 > > Hi, > > I want to add, there are consumers of FreeBSD kernel code, like RTEMS > and QNX. If someone wants to maintain for example the Network stack for > a 32-bit platform outside of FreeBSD, how is FreeBSD thinking about > that? What is the plan there? Folks are more than welcome to use bits of FreeBSD in their own codebases, but FreeBSD is not obligated to maintain those bits in other codebases. The healthy relationship there is for those consumers to engage with their upstream (FreeBSD). > Instead of 128/64/32 -bit support it will be 128/64 -bit support > (thinking about CheriBSD)? CHERI is not full 128-bit integers (e.g. long and addresses are still 64-bits), so it's not quite as large a gap as 32 vs 64 (though is close). > If 32-bit CPU and platform technology patents are about to expire, then > keeping 32-bit support around could be a scoop for FreeBSD, even though > 32-bit PC platforms are a patchwork of technologies, going from ISA, PnP > to PCI and USB. MIPS patents are expired and we removed that, too. The code is also not going away, but the question is what is our consensus as a project on where we want to focus our efforts. -- John Baldwin From nobody Tue May 30 18:57:17 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4QW1q84h8qz4Y08Y for ; Tue, 30 May 2023 18:57:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mike@karels.net) Received: from mail2.karels.net (mail2.karels.net [3.19.118.201]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "freebsd", Issuer "freebsd" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4QW1q82bZhz42Nd; Tue, 30 May 2023 18:57:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mike@karels.net) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from mail2.karels.net (localhost [IPv6:0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1]) by mail2.karels.net (8.17.1/8.17.1) with ESMTP id 34UIvI0T005079; Tue, 30 May 2023 13:57:18 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from mike@karels.net) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=karels.net; s=mail2; t=1685473038; bh=ZelSfpB12mSe9wgwORvHkQB6NAazAHCkrwQ8fQh6yH4=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References; b=nUQGFKyiz0Rmjr5z0HS12pPJYHnYZr3ED/pZNC+718V9NXRrtwUhQU4Fi7OYhUrEQ 5xtXOgqdUh91md9VztwxSC2Xv3VYEs8zgTVXoGW9FlrexBWsGhbW7T5mRTz0/dAuG5 1w4Z3YGlkKO8nra2XBw3ZQMwjX+6x6/4BkwPD9JQzKxspBUE3K/vmLs5A90Jy7eqZr CRabNyAjfofEGB76Bg/77X8Imy15W3blQlXTfTtu/7mRAwg43ZCtcSIjvk6NRe4ZL3 XGDRFo+fZy/Z0wH0hmkopGZR2wujW5Ed/bHJ9xpODeKZyb+GxcXONVBBbloF16JFO4 vsoBNJVwXTZPA== Received: from [10.0.2.130] ([73.62.165.147]) by mail2.karels.net with ESMTPSA id GM4JEg5HdmTVEwAAs/W3XQ (envelope-from ); Tue, 30 May 2023 13:57:18 -0500 From: Mike Karels To: John Baldwin Cc: freebsd-arch Subject: Re: Future of 32-bit platforms (including i386) Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 13:57:17 -0500 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.14r5964) Message-ID: <2FA8A693-13A0-4540-A49B-79B694FFBF1D@karels.net> In-Reply-To: <018790e3-3ede-2397-651a-69cc7567e903@FreeBSD.org> References: <6dd8a279-1ccf-ea66-9009-3865a7865e1a@selasky.org> <018790e3-3ede-2397-651a-69cc7567e903@FreeBSD.org> List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4QW1q82bZhz42Nd X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16509, ipnet:3.16.0.0/14, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On 30 May 2023, at 12:55, John Baldwin wrote: > On 5/30/23 7:36 AM, Hans Petter Selasky wrote: >> ... >> I want to add, there are consumers of FreeBSD kernel code, like RTEMS >> and QNX. If someone wants to maintain for example the Network stack for >> a 32-bit platform outside of FreeBSD, how is FreeBSD thinking about >> that? What is the plan there? > > Folks are more than welcome to use bits of FreeBSD in their own codebases, > but FreeBSD is not obligated to maintain those bits in other codebases. > The healthy relationship there is for those consumers to engage with their > upstream (FreeBSD). > >> Instead of 128/64/32 -bit support it will be 128/64 -bit support >> (thinking about CheriBSD)? > > CHERI is not full 128-bit integers (e.g. long and addresses are still > 64-bits), so it's not quite as large a gap as 32 vs 64 (though is close). One advantage of having at least one 32-bit system as part of the build is that it finds mismatched/non-portable use of integer types and format strings. If there is no real 32-bit platform worth updating, maybe we could include a “null” 32-bit port, e.g. one without machine-dependent code other than headers? It could be based on i386 or armv7, but obviously would not include a full kernel. It could potentially include stubs to allow the kernel to link, but just generating object files for the MI parts would be valuable. Does anyone have any idea how much work this might be? If we have the ability to build 32-bit user-level binaries with -m32, the kernel or kernel objects would be the main addition. Mike From nobody Wed May 31 05:01:49 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4QWHDr30M2z4Y3X7 for ; Wed, 31 May 2023 05:02:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-yw1-x1134.google.com (mail-yw1-x1134.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1134]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4QWHDr1LlWz4DhL for ; Wed, 31 May 2023 05:02:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-yw1-x1134.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-55db055b412so8616077b3.0 for ; Tue, 30 May 2023 22:02:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; t=1685509322; x=1688101322; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=BM19+78FwNNGq6ilh+dWw8IOKKIcA+/JD+R11rZ1t+c=; b=KMKYdsCpG0S51wlBYme07T8dXzXeCo5DySZl3GHWZD/nNddlmE9XdLypjqxWKdeKqR NLMyrXecf1HbhpZTp4DiT9pVm8F3TbU4NyueWPmGgbo+V2VDlTeFOBnNJn5PnPhW556K APjUxcLSnFnCDGg0uqb4YjgfOehvX2Ka7LOeYb++JJR+VG2h2JWgTj6jcrPkiIv+1DkB B3ybd70WPaSueGqDCEObnBanZCjudYYLmTa96YxQiD84PhGu4BbDJTNSM6kXZjctIaUU zuXp2GTd11rLQDxTRq7YTEMGv+GqhxWL5zb0W7YbHzZ7Ji9g/CxhXfhFt9j51WlyGAS3 ZtDg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1685509322; x=1688101322; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=BM19+78FwNNGq6ilh+dWw8IOKKIcA+/JD+R11rZ1t+c=; b=DbVMPvjxWi1rbwnyPcNNgyMoD5Odg2jj7WAv9t+T9Vma/EluSKa4i5Mq65GBLgVf8q BcOo0DSvPkS/Jpye8Exzasey9Yx5vSNq+Cbh/DUmf9/u6IjoBVC0va1BLqj0FP3neo7P l9AX2wmthwIOzKTDhsoANpD6xX6tsDob9cE3riry3X722nAQ2nzoqlE9SzGg0sqM1eSY 2YivVPO1y0Cf5S1nPP9rM1BFRujv47XSXbZiaJ5pAseoOxjZbeW5kj5wCWeh4YXf/JXo yCO01TotAjPi+SNsSlhojOUj6lv8v5/6frcyk2VuRNWrE5uazWXOFUj5Ot+xcUbyycLP Ykdg== X-Gm-Message-State: AC+VfDxRWDgSKNYDU6fw0+PPx6Xgh8yeRMaCpwRvh8uF52iqztbRWJ29 qMt2t3g+YbKrEwN0GhdIzMdwVA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACHHUZ5xFYecEUYWgkjLlDBxw/yYKr43Vo6BxJ9lcOt/2u80HJrtj64zG07OkNRVM6EN7lMHeOxDww== X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:2fc5:b0:568:ab19:8bb with SMTP id ex5-20020a05690c2fc500b00568ab1908bbmr6708469ywb.3.1685509322713; Tue, 30 May 2023 22:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw1-f174.google.com (mail-yw1-f174.google.com. [209.85.128.174]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w19-20020a814913000000b0056872195267sm2403723ywa.129.2023.05.30.22.02.02 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 30 May 2023 22:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw1-f174.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-561b7729a12so8387627b3.1; Tue, 30 May 2023 22:02:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:ed5:b0:565:34bb:9009 with SMTP id cs21-20020a05690c0ed500b0056534bb9009mr20551041ywb.16.1685509321954; Tue, 30 May 2023 22:02:01 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6dd8a279-1ccf-ea66-9009-3865a7865e1a@selasky.org> In-Reply-To: From: Tomek CEDRO Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 07:01:49 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Future of 32-bit platforms (including i386) To: Hans Petter Selasky Cc: Peter Jeremy , Warner Losh , freebsd-arch Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4QWHDr1LlWz4DhL X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 6:12=E2=80=AFAM Hans Petter Selasky wrote: > (..) I'm glad the world > leaders today are of the age they are, and the bureaucrats below them > know nothing about the weapons they possess and what damage they may > actually do to the world! Not only do they want to bomb people to death. > They want to delete their history, their names, their data, their > products, everything. If there is no data, no name, no history. There > was no war either. Exactly, history rewrite, and people does not even seem to care o_O --=20 CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From nobody Wed May 31 17:30:28 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4QWbrf2nnkz4XJCj for ; Wed, 31 May 2023 17:30:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-ej1-x62d.google.com (mail-ej1-x62d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::62d]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4QWbrd2fDLz4krY for ; Wed, 31 May 2023 17:30:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bsdimp-com.20221208.gappssmtp.com header.s=20221208 header.b="AgO/VbbF"; 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charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, May 28, 2023 at 10:09=E2=80=AFAM Mark Millard w= rote: > Emmanuel Vadot wrote on > Date: Wed, 24 May 2023 06:35:55 UTC : > > > . . . > > > > I personnaly see armv7 in "degraded maintainance mode" since 13.0, > > nothing really intersting was added, no new SoC support even if there > > was some interesting one that we could support, no new drivers for > > supported platforms. We even lost TI BeagleBone support because no one > > really have the time to keep support up to date. > > I still have some little cute boards that I want to use from time to > > time but the lack of proper porting of new language (like rust and iirc > > go have problems too) is making new software unusable on those boards > > (you can't even make some "smart speaker" for spotify as all the > > spotify clients are in rust). > > IMX6 support is stalled since ian@ passed away and mmel@ isn't very > > active atm and they were both the most actives developers for armv7 low > > level code. > > One of the things for tier 2 is: > (from https://docs.freebsd.org/en/articles/committers-guide/#archs > 21.4. Tier 2 section) > > QUOTE > Collectively, developers are required to provide the following > to maintain the Tier 2 status of a platform: > > =E2=80=A2 Tier 2 architectures must have an active ecosystem of users= and > developers. > END QUOTE > > Is there an implication that, even for 14, the "developers" > part of that for armv7 has dropped off to the point that > tier 2 would reasonably be in question? > For the 14 branch, armv7 seems to be right on the edge. Some bugs do get fixed, but some of the SoCs are so poorly maintained that they don't work anymore (for whatever reason). So "degraded maintenance mode" is likely apt for 14: it will still work, mostly, but many cool new things that people want, both in terms of languages and new hardware support will be lacking in some way, shape or form. Tier 2 is likely still the best tier to keep it at, imho. Warner --000000000000b39b6b05fd00ad5f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sun, May 28, 2023 at 10:09=E2=80= =AFAM Mark Millard <marklmi@yahoo.c= om> wrote:
manu_at_bidouilliste.com> wrote on
Date: Wed, 24 May 2023 06:35:55 UTC :

> . . .
>
> I personnaly see armv7 in "degraded maintainance mode" since= 13.0,
> nothing really intersting was added, no new SoC support even if there<= br> > was some interesting one that we could support, no new drivers for
> supported platforms. We even lost TI BeagleBone support because no one=
> really have the time to keep support up to date.
> I still have some little cute boards that I want to use from time to > time but the lack of proper porting of new language (like rust and iir= c
> go have problems too) is making new software unusable on those boards<= br> > (you can't even make some "smart speaker" for spotify as= all the
> spotify clients are in rust).
> IMX6 support is stalled since ian@ passed away and mmel@ isn't ver= y
> active atm and they were both the most actives developers for armv7 lo= w
> level code.

One of the things for tier 2 is:
(from https://docs.freebsd.org/en/articl= es/committers-guide/#archs
21.4. Tier 2 section)

QUOTE
Collectively, developers are required to provide the following
to maintain the Tier 2 status of a platform:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 Tier 2 architectures must have an active ecosystem = of users and developers.
END QUOTE

Is there an implication that, even for 14, the "developers"
part of that for armv7 has dropped off to the point that
tier 2 would reasonably be in question?

For the 14 branch, armv7 seems to be right on the edge. Some
bug= s do get fixed, but some of the SoCs are so poorly maintained
tha= t they don't work anymore (for whatever reason). So "degraded
maintenance mode" is likely apt for 14: it will still work, most= ly, but
many cool new things that people want, both in terms of l= anguages
and new hardware support will be lacking in some way, sh= ape or
form. Tier 2 is likely still the best tier to keep it at, = imho.=C2=A0

Warner
--000000000000b39b6b05fd00ad5f-- From nobody Thu Jun 1 10:24:31 2023 X-Original-To: arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4QX2MN1vmjz4YG38 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2023 10:25:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Alexander@leidinger.net) Received: from mailgate.Leidinger.net (mailgate.leidinger.net [IPv6:2a00:1828:2000:313::1:5]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature ECDSA (P-256) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mailgate.leidinger.net", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4QX2ML38GZz42NN for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2023 10:25:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Alexander@leidinger.net) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=leidinger.net header.s=outgoing-alex header.b=DgVgPtBq; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of Alexander@leidinger.net designates 2a00:1828:2000:313::1:5 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=Alexander@leidinger.net; dmarc=pass (policy=quarantine) header.from=leidinger.net Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2023 12:24:31 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=leidinger.net; s=outgoing-alex; t=1685615105; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type; bh=CodLhLjcPK/YK0FLwYgcKBBHe08dGaN1lBsqL11/r9U=; b=DgVgPtBq02wV73dezQDm1Ft9Enx1nEZEk2/AQpGlEtcbmJlMJIHy6w8K502/ketHfKv3N3 M98/ELksEBgH1Obt/QvECeJHYTAABxnNhrvH7SndXObICsMIdjyYG4rOLt2PDDdeWXPEXE WnsY4lq/MBVSEtPp97azFJh9gZGpdQ0biI2KdxojMdTbACj/+jBMYPP2LYT4WJl2GWjASR rNy+9FX/r6gp2P+6nyfdF+N3b4V1hgXCye14GBcoD4RCDb2gzIG2758TjGgI6RMrAw8mRH 24iiJLWT3CypEyHOvp8MfKUEJX4Oyp1tiv7ZJdbwMvnFLPdSDkkbJmtngAwv6w== Message-ID: <20230601122431.Horde.mmXZpnuf9SpQYXzs4Mrw_Ek@webmail.leidinger.net> From: Alexander Leidinger To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Automatic service jails - review request Accept-Language: de,en Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=_LyOUneTyLa3Tz54bf095DeW"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.07 / 15.00]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.998]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.977]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[leidinger.net,quarantine]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[leidinger.net:s=outgoing-alex]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[arch@freebsd.org]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; BLOCKLISTDE_FAIL(0.00)[2a00:1828:2000:313::1:5:server fail]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROMTLD(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[leidinger.net:+]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34240, ipnet:2a00:1828::/32, country:DE] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4QX2ML38GZz42NN X-Spamd-Bar: ------ X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N This message is in MIME format and has been PGP signed. --=_LyOUneTyLa3Tz54bf095DeW Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; DelSp=Yes Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I implemented a functionality which allows to automatically put rc.d=20=20 services=20into jails. They inherit the same filesystem, and maybe the=20= =20 same=20network / jailed sysvipc / ..., so it's not the same isolation as=20= =20 a=20manual jail with a separate filesystem, but at least you can=20=20 restrict=20access to sysvpic, parts of net, ..., and unrelated processes=20= =20 automatically=20(1-2 config lines in rc.conf). The included man-page=20=20 change=20contains more info. I'm intentionally a bit less verbose here,=20= =20 as=20this is also a test to see if the man page is good enough to=20=20 describe=20this. I have put up some reviews in Phabricator: - https://reviews.freebsd.org/D40369 -> Extend /usr/bin/service with the possibility to set ENV vars This is a pre-req for the functionality. - https://reviews.freebsd.org/D40370 -> The implementation. - https://reviews.freebsd.org/D40371 -> Additional config for /some/ basesystem services (e.g. allow=20=20 network=20access for syslogd). The /usr/bin/service change is something which also helps in=20=20 developing/debugging=20rc.d scripts in general. I think it could be=20=20 committed=20before the branch of 14-stable (and as such would then allow=20= =20 an=20easy MFC of the implementation later). The other two reviews may need some revisions (and the 3rd may benefit=20= =20 from=20further changes to services (which can come in later) I don't=20=20 have=20in use myself or haven't had the time to have a look at it), but=20= =20 I=20have those changes running since some years and I should try to get=20= =20 them=20out the door. Peer review/pressure may help here... :) Note, this is the second implmementation which uses an env var to=20=20 track=20state (much simpler code than the first implementation), whereas=20= =20 the=20first implementation tried to use different commands=20=20 ("startjailed/stopjailed")=20to track state. It would be nice if some people with insight into /etc/rc would have a=20= =20 look=20at D40369 and D40370, and everyone interested in this=20=20 functionality=20into the man pages and whatever kind of area they can=20=20 provide=20some insight into. Bye, Alexander. --=20 http://www.Leidinger.net=20Alexander@Leidinger.net: PGP 0x8F31830F9F2772BF http://www.FreeBSD.org netchild@FreeBSD.org : PGP 0x8F31830F9F2772BF --=_LyOUneTyLa3Tz54bf095DeW Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: Digitale PGP-Signatur Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIzBAABCAAdFiEER9UlYXp1PSd08nWXEg2wmwP42IYFAmR4cd8ACgkQEg2wmwP4 2IYsyA//fhpvlBK8gsaBCQ7P+vdCj0A6Z2Rg6INDIdtXZZOzSYW9pt9NbkuRXiHq B8YebnesjYXEtMMl1G6rguQ4OK7u1Uul6x8okMOCXn2WoE+UuoScDbaINKlwtEmK lt869NQG+cPpBaAZSE3NBMMlBCRhgn7LSuKpUdcv5CKr6R6BKa7HWB6YeqOILpRF y2eLtbRMqBQK+zGuWSVgky3po7rtmFJtS16xgUgKejNq+ob5/fpxPXHAR68y1cbr HZevNh9W15DqGafnyL5xEZJb/GCSZm7XAKe9t389O1B8+fcPxgrl7iSgc6KBcbJr ae7glRGSfFI01Mc1Hj7lsvwcR4TLOulJhj7l1HFvo7jOLiHy88EYsfaaIsl02YLM Atx+1eH/Jwz8fIfqNZ088GfflGVKr61/Kceqjszfnrr+RfrD1n+A99EnC59dEika CIDdb00eWMidOZhJ+ZWHpcg4ecds3dPKiaJkaqztDOaeA88HNeEtdkrT59MSvB30 mYsAU0uFGv351nOXb9zqTuQbcvM0nEVCwRBNfCJ9LIEWIfwRYZDxvFxW+MLXqTeJ HzYHg2VBzq64Gh4o1j5X4dQ1pecQEGYrMcRVTmwzZU3yB+C+9cioUx87QGh8xDqn b+d/a6onHzOPpiwvs2//Zdr0CpZAeEGfitnUZnpebgRDkuq5trU= =2ahY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=_LyOUneTyLa3Tz54bf095DeW-- From nobody Thu Jun 1 11:35:46 2023 X-Original-To: arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4QX3xF5tTHz4YLZr for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2023 11:36:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 6yearold@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vk1-f177.google.com (mail-vk1-f177.google.com [209.85.221.177]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4QX3xD4zKMz47Xr for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2023 11:36:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 6yearold@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-vk1-f177.google.com with SMTP id 71dfb90a1353d-456f1cc1791so19571e0c.2 for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2023 04:36:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1685619374; x=1688211374; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=3sT7krIRBuGo4MEBa0fk/diG0InX+YD+V8fq2kMCKmQ=; b=jJuSvZCgQZSfejyWtnTo03g0Xx1MQa1sMMPEJ/bZwuf7pqc+VzeLSQ+kByyfGVRDJL 1WFQS6kgxcLsOOKzHSR//azXXmvt5tQJfVsd1e54NLSbBZMJxv/jDSYRXqtDxQnukxRD sPw18HMvvuXlXeJw5eu0aB2AbleM2IW01gso8hXjBh0FFrJMpQhCXLHQS0/a3YmFuxMU lLFXX/Br9u5+v5elOXoZO08y6Zjr0uwF1Vubp3V5RAUL6wcpYAOAKHaBVzLn5i4FGAHv Wi8YF4tIabQISvLLMObiGx1fEVlOZ9rat8HMpEh01sS0+WpO8bksWeqhyBPiFNIkEbJV FrjQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AC+VfDy3KATwOg1q+ZEmJXR8aU9Yq6gDamdw/LOLCwxUBpMalXkSoI48 XATuVak0F52c6DuHtDd6UwznqnT/mj9hdOFR X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACHHUZ7haXAG19Z5seqAmREMl5Zyw+8s2qr3mggRLY8SyQtJm+EvlRnylyZV4dYB1e52M/3vSWFdCA== X-Received: by 2002:a1f:4884:0:b0:456:f84d:4f25 with SMTP id v126-20020a1f4884000000b00456f84d4f25mr337117vka.8.1685619372809; Thu, 01 Jun 2023 04:36:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk1-f182.google.com (mail-vk1-f182.google.com. [209.85.221.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l3-20020a1f2503000000b0045a04a65cbasm2636998vkl.22.2023.06.01.04.36.12 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 01 Jun 2023 04:36:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk1-f182.google.com with SMTP id 71dfb90a1353d-45a0ee1c411so23450e0c.0 for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2023 04:36:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a1f:4884:0:b0:456:f84d:4f25 with SMTP id v126-20020a1f4884000000b00456f84d4f25mr337111vka.8.1685619372225; Thu, 01 Jun 2023 04:36:12 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230601122431.Horde.mmXZpnuf9SpQYXzs4Mrw_Ek@webmail.leidinger.net> In-Reply-To: <20230601122431.Horde.mmXZpnuf9SpQYXzs4Mrw_Ek@webmail.leidinger.net> From: Gleb Popov Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2023 14:35:46 +0300 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Automatic service jails - review request To: Alexander Leidinger Cc: arch@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4QX3xD4zKMz47Xr X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 1:25=E2=80=AFPM Alexander Leidinger wrote: > > Hi, > > I implemented a functionality which allows to automatically put rc.d > services into jails. THis is highly related to what I did in https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-ports/tree/main/ports-mgmt/rc-subr-jail although my approach isn't automatic in any way. From nobody Fri Jun 2 09:29:30 2023 X-Original-To: arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4QXd4p3jjYz4ZC7x for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2023 09:29:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Alexander@leidinger.net) Received: from mailgate.Leidinger.net (bastille.leidinger.net [89.238.82.207]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature ECDSA (P-256) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mailgate.leidinger.net", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4QXd4p00Mxz3M7s for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2023 09:29:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Alexander@leidinger.net) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2023 11:29:30 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=leidinger.net; s=outgoing-alex; t=1685698174; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=O5He7npvBG8iBWcPr5TEeHyxnMO9m/WaVqCu7ybi0RA=; b=JMVvzitQSRCiiXAHR5wMshl8zkDiry1CTNH2HB+Gu/xtDh9JdeIwYabY7Nn+WItP58VRqH tL7xAgYABem4J8LbVvAsHizb+CtGhU+Iq8n5+eoeryI8goZ+KlsvQJOwb3LI4QRXawGe/Z oZt8H1XdAqTKxef37VdjzsdLqp9fBUrsb7VeGkMjUpeSQV/EO3BwocSzqw7Ki1N+xb+Ael KSr5REJDBJDHKg20WTXayPukYTERn+ylVKDjNu7tgrEkTOEa58Dvfj3vjnJ7X5nj4Wwjen gTxcWyYynSvTtBaE46DjI+wxjpS8hRKA9E2mbaDftaD/uY3uP9ShM53jI2ooZA== Message-ID: <20230602112930.Horde.JM5vGJ2ftpR0pxFB69Zi3z_@webmail.leidinger.net> From: Alexander Leidinger To: Gleb Popov Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Automatic service jails - review request References: <20230601122431.Horde.mmXZpnuf9SpQYXzs4Mrw_Ek@webmail.leidinger.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: de,en Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=_sLs6p9kR97IpoqW5QnhWkje"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4QXd4p00Mxz3M7s X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34240, ipnet:89.238.64.0/18, country:DE] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N This message is in MIME format and has been PGP signed. --=_sLs6p9kR97IpoqW5QnhWkje Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; DelSp=Yes Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Quoting Gleb Popov (from Thu, 1 Jun 2023 14:35:46 +030= 0): > On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 1:25=E2=80=AFPM Alexander Leidinger > wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I implemented a functionality which allows to automatically put rc.d >> services into jails. > > THis is highly related to what I did in > https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-ports/tree/main/ports-mgmt/rc-subr-jai= l > although my approach isn't automatic in any way. When you committed that I had a very quick look. I understand it as follows= : - my stuff: low security, higher security than no jail, very easy to setu= p - your stuff: medium security, higher than what I do (due to a=20=20 separate=20FS), more work required to setup - one service per vnet-jail, manual setup required: full security,=20=20 much=20more setup work And I think our stuff is complementary. As I understand it by a quick=20=20 look,=20your code would be used inside a rc.d script to setup a jail=20=20 tailored=20to the service, whereas my code doesn't need any change to=20=20 rc.d=20scripts in the most easy case, and could life with only rc.conf=20= =20 entries=20for the service, but 1 config change to the rc.d service would=20= =20 make=20it self-contained. Bye, Alexander. --=20 http://www.Leidinger.net=20Alexander@Leidinger.net: PGP 0x8F31830F9F2772BF http://www.FreeBSD.org netchild@FreeBSD.org : PGP 0x8F31830F9F2772BF --=_sLs6p9kR97IpoqW5QnhWkje Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: Digitale PGP-Signatur Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIzBAABCAAdFiEER9UlYXp1PSd08nWXEg2wmwP42IYFAmR5tnoACgkQEg2wmwP4 2Ibt+w/9EYh3AHBe2srDM/hfrC9H28nFjHMOcA4zKV64oobR3RNpd7YMiJT1aYOT mDF005oss8YSFiGzfwOixUqxVditW4GP1oPsphHuicIF/0WGbQs9dGcKqz3zDQzK 7JNt3uvU8SjgRP5QtUxLBBj8R0WFaEK5Y6knJQ8dNajQIG8DVRFDlzPO2MqnRxzi VTu7zyocni/P2bT9TqX0I/sDvFKHnlc89dSeIg/v8ubFAzEMvmrXGSLmBYKGAa6x 4R3+w8lPLq4zGsu9OzTC4H2sqKqJ7Kx2cDbjyi29Dy1S5GP0kkPj/OiRymqdS0zd mS6Lqy8jRmNa69xbBWyI1fYMEw7JNFOFaCm0jBa3eQdSELqYbcozMbbTa0DtqdLW 567i0S+BPZyDTYpQ8oB3dq/Z0AtsqbhlKvZBsvKYaLB28NCqU/pkIID+os0k/6LR TEVeK7vLxXHos+dKCjIrltGW81a68UNFVyMPcgZdqY2CI+XMlE02TZGHa1GVq6mS K2XUkZM0AwhTf51gQ+/wHQy8+IPI8ZS/XZCW/MKJzMhNG07RXS+sszWBX5Oryb1x 2uWe5QFRcaCmKpFsZ57CnhWr0Rk+wdTOacbbod7WqxZExDTnd6/1EWTfND0Wbbfe ggxQEAKZGceGO1MTy9PPpUf21o2thaGukJneO2fb1k8CTeQpgUk= =Ia3S -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=_sLs6p9kR97IpoqW5QnhWkje-- From nobody Sat Jun 3 16:44:24 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4QYQhF4hGTz4Z5xw for ; 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID f16853442b9c7d71de29142a313928b8; Sat, 03 Jun 2023 16:44:36 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3731.600.7\)) Subject: Re: Future of 32-bit platforms (including i386) From: Mark Millard In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2023 09:44:24 -0700 Cc: Emmanuel Vadot , freebsd-arch Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3D0FACB4-A356-4FB1-BB10-0232DEBB08C0@yahoo.com> References: <00E63ECC-2E7B-4C9F-9903-A8BD67278C00.ref@yahoo.com> <00E63ECC-2E7B-4C9F-9903-A8BD67278C00@yahoo.com> To: Warner Losh X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.600.7) X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.07 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.993]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.984]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.40)[0.403]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[98.137.65.30:from]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com:dkim]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-arch@freebsd.org]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36647, ipnet:98.137.64.0/20, country:US]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[98.137.65.30:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4QYQhC4Dsjz3DSM X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On May 31, 2023, at 10:30, Warner Losh wrote: > On Sun, May 28, 2023 at 10:09=E2=80=AFAM Mark Millard = wrote: > Emmanuel Vadot wrote on > Date: Wed, 24 May 2023 06:35:55 UTC : >=20 > > . . . > >=20 > > I personnaly see armv7 in "degraded maintainance mode" since 13.0, > > nothing really intersting was added, no new SoC support even if = there > > was some interesting one that we could support, no new drivers for > > supported platforms. We even lost TI BeagleBone support because no = one > > really have the time to keep support up to date. > > I still have some little cute boards that I want to use from time to > > time but the lack of proper porting of new language (like rust and = iirc > > go have problems too) is making new software unusable on those = boards > > (you can't even make some "smart speaker" for spotify as all the > > spotify clients are in rust). > > IMX6 support is stalled since ian@ passed away and mmel@ isn't very > > active atm and they were both the most actives developers for armv7 = low > > level code. >=20 > One of the things for tier 2 is: > (from https://docs.freebsd.org/en/articles/committers-guide/#archs > 21.4. Tier 2 section) >=20 > QUOTE > Collectively, developers are required to provide the following > to maintain the Tier 2 status of a platform: >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Tier 2 architectures must have an active ecosystem of = users and developers. > END QUOTE >=20 > Is there an implication that, even for 14, the "developers" > part of that for armv7 has dropped off to the point that > tier 2 would reasonably be in question? >=20 > For the 14 branch, armv7 seems to be right on the edge. Some > bugs do get fixed, but some of the SoCs are so poorly maintained > that they don't work anymore (for whatever reason). So "degraded > maintenance mode" is likely apt for 14: it will still work, mostly, = but > many cool new things that people want, both in terms of languages > and new hardware support will be lacking in some way, shape or > form. Tier 2 is likely still the best tier to keep it at, imho.=20 >=20 One thing I was unsure of is how much the choice is driven by things as they are at around releng/14.0 vs. what things might be expected to be like around, say, releng/14.4 (a number of years later). It appears that changing tier status is normally avoided for the likes of 14.[1-4] . =3D=3D=3D Mark Millard marklmi at yahoo.com From nobody Sat Jun 3 18:29:00 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4QYT0p2vcRz4ZJ4C for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2023 18:29:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-ed1-x52e.google.com (mail-ed1-x52e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4QYT0p0JFNz3hsk for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2023 18:29:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-ed1-x52e.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5149c51fd5bso4677935a12.0 for ; Sat, 03 Jun 2023 11:29:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20221208.gappssmtp.com; s=20221208; t=1685816952; x=1688408952; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=fKxb1ivA5oLY1exm+agchfy3Man60hdH2oqSoo8NwEs=; b=sSBK9A8PJqhU1oA6bVgBZrFnP01l1JWrB6hl7rWIx4SGBzPJBU8ukYoo9ed+HBWp1H VmLJZGjvrsYTde1mMcmWb2ATc+Bnzq4xHymILfz5d3c01MSwUKdZl0Ob4O7SORzIeIwI YY/St/HgBT6IgvKhcg31l02DGC6Phqy/Rab65AsOruHGC25GAQqumNmLYKDNyCNgrs8o YSKRCSSSlxhSd10zDcuGXFNPEV75uDWTnZDj5gBVgS8slD7+jBz61FBMo0Sk6JtKSXHk uGlGgz2hoE1GJcHR2ihxlueOcjtkW+UBxCvDnezREMT0F+HUFQdBBCZtizvoGoJX/1jp 5A0g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1685816952; x=1688408952; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=fKxb1ivA5oLY1exm+agchfy3Man60hdH2oqSoo8NwEs=; b=BPihyk4DlnNObIa0RBijPNSZdT0tTI64gi+HUkj3OlVDDzIUEEKMbra05luaBS+F2g GE+/otsLq1WCWByNNFo82VhsF6xe5oadTc42l962279H8Y5i1b+LX76vnAQ7CroerrNP C2zFeWHeg7Wz5MrszrLjzUqithUtGTJS/nmaFT4yck9EQwlG+WmVHlbbUlCVQJBxNyyc II8XyNhk2+3d6zbE04GzcJ0xeVtZ28kMGYUOea1ppIk9/pYYuIEW4dNPZ/PIiPev+ihk cBe9s2ifJLM25XOyL8wCuw69FgvdrglB7wfkeV5BWeBnU6P0902DUJAFWm6qy5F8AxST kgVQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AC+VfDwcVNxzC7rmXiNZEZk0c0Y4Fre8BN8NWXNnyvxUfSaegDemgTsn Xz1HHLIdJcJ3Ru9yqu8YIJPudyAwbOfaN3OMvMzcYA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACHHUZ5Xlqjgrc/9MPttJJBP1R1LIoCQz4qXwGi5SA//wMV/FoFcO7DXOyLd9oEcKBMZWYJGL66yZTWYN709YrVuSGg= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:c64d:0:b0:515:3103:631e with SMTP id z13-20020aa7c64d000000b005153103631emr5117497edr.25.1685816951895; Sat, 03 Jun 2023 11:29:11 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <00E63ECC-2E7B-4C9F-9903-A8BD67278C00.ref@yahoo.com> <00E63ECC-2E7B-4C9F-9903-A8BD67278C00@yahoo.com> <3D0FACB4-A356-4FB1-BB10-0232DEBB08C0@yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <3D0FACB4-A356-4FB1-BB10-0232DEBB08C0@yahoo.com> From: Warner Losh Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2023 12:29:00 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Future of 32-bit platforms (including i386) To: Mark Millard Cc: Emmanuel Vadot , freebsd-arch Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000930ae105fd3dd8f8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4QYT0p0JFNz3hsk X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --000000000000930ae105fd3dd8f8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jun 3, 2023, 10:44 AM Mark Millard wrote: > > On May 31, 2023, at 10:30, Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Sun, May 28, 2023 at 10:09=E2=80=AFAM Mark Millard wrote: > > Emmanuel Vadot wrote on > > Date: Wed, 24 May 2023 06:35:55 UTC : > > > > > . . . > > > > > > I personnaly see armv7 in "degraded maintainance mode" since 13.0, > > > nothing really intersting was added, no new SoC support even if there > > > was some interesting one that we could support, no new drivers for > > > supported platforms. We even lost TI BeagleBone support because no on= e > > > really have the time to keep support up to date. > > > I still have some little cute boards that I want to use from time to > > > time but the lack of proper porting of new language (like rust and ii= rc > > > go have problems too) is making new software unusable on those boards > > > (you can't even make some "smart speaker" for spotify as all the > > > spotify clients are in rust). > > > IMX6 support is stalled since ian@ passed away and mmel@ isn't very > > > active atm and they were both the most actives developers for armv7 l= ow > > > level code. > > > > One of the things for tier 2 is: > > (from https://docs.freebsd.org/en/articles/committers-guide/#archs > > 21.4. Tier 2 section) > > > > QUOTE > > Collectively, developers are required to provide the following > > to maintain the Tier 2 status of a platform: > > > > =E2=80=A2 Tier 2 architectures must have an active ecosystem of use= rs and > developers. > > END QUOTE > > > > Is there an implication that, even for 14, the "developers" > > part of that for armv7 has dropped off to the point that > > tier 2 would reasonably be in question? > > > > For the 14 branch, armv7 seems to be right on the edge. Some > > bugs do get fixed, but some of the SoCs are so poorly maintained > > that they don't work anymore (for whatever reason). So "degraded > > maintenance mode" is likely apt for 14: it will still work, mostly, but > > many cool new things that people want, both in terms of languages > > and new hardware support will be lacking in some way, shape or > > form. Tier 2 is likely still the best tier to keep it at, imho. > > > > One thing I was unsure of is how much the choice is driven > by things as they are at around releng/14.0 vs. what things > might be expected to be like around, say, releng/14.4 (a > number of years later). It appears that changing tier status > is normally avoided for the likes of 14.[1-4] . > A lot of it is sticking your finger in the air and projecting out 4 years. If nobody is going to be making any fixes and the code doesn't work at that point, we are better off killing it now. For armv7, I still see bug fixes happening, but anticipate that any bad bug that pops up may not het fixed. I see no new hardware support absent some unforeseen resurgence. I suspect when we branch 15, it's 4 years out prospects will be even worse. But I don't know that for sure. Warner =3D=3D=3D > Mark Millard > marklmi at yahoo.com > > --000000000000930ae105fd3dd8f8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sat, Jun 3, 2023, 10:44 AM Mark Millard <marklmi@yahoo.com> wrote:

On May 31, 2023, at 10:30, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:

> On Sun, May 28, 2023 at 10:09=E2=80=AFAM Mark Millard <marklmi@yahoo= .com> wrote:
> Emmanuel Vadot <manu_at_bidouilliste.com> w= rote on
> Date: Wed, 24 May 2023 06:35:55 UTC :
>
> > . . .
> >
> > I personnaly see armv7 in "degraded maintainance mode" = since 13.0,
> > nothing really intersting was added, no new SoC support even if t= here
> > was some interesting one that we could support, no new drivers fo= r
> > supported platforms. We even lost TI BeagleBone support because n= o one
> > really have the time to keep support up to date.
> > I still have some little cute boards that I want to use from time= to
> > time but the lack of proper porting of new language (like rust an= d iirc
> > go have problems too) is making new software unusable on those bo= ards
> > (you can't even make some "smart speaker" for spoti= fy as all the
> > spotify clients are in rust).
> > IMX6 support is stalled since ian@ passed away and mmel@ isn'= t very
> > active atm and they were both the most actives developers for arm= v7 low
> > level code.
>
> One of the things for tier 2 is:
> (from https://docs.freeb= sd.org/en/articles/committers-guide/#archs
> 21.4. Tier 2 section)
>
> QUOTE
> Collectively, developers are required to provide the following
> to maintain the Tier 2 status of a platform:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=A2 Tier 2 architectures must have an active = ecosystem of users and developers.
> END QUOTE
>
> Is there an implication that, even for 14, the "developers"<= br> > part of that for armv7 has dropped off to the point that
> tier 2 would reasonably be in question?
>
> For the 14 branch, armv7 seems to be right on the edge. Some
> bugs do get fixed, but some of the SoCs are so poorly maintained
> that they don't work anymore (for whatever reason). So "degra= ded
> maintenance mode" is likely apt for 14: it will still work, mostl= y, but
> many cool new things that people want, both in terms of languages
> and new hardware support will be lacking in some way, shape or
> form. Tier 2 is likely still the best tier to keep it at, imho.
>

One thing I was unsure of is how much the choice is driven
by things as they are at around releng/14.0 vs. what things
might be expected to be like around, say, releng/14.4 (a
number of years later). It appears that changing tier status
is normally avoided for the likes of 14.[1-4] .

A lot of it is sticking your= finger in the air and projecting out 4 years. If nobody is going to be mak= ing any fixes and the code doesn't work at that point, we are better of= f killing it now. For armv7, I still see bug fixes happening, but anticipat= e that any bad bug that pops up may not het fixed. I see no new hardware su= pport absent some unforeseen resurgence.=C2=A0

<= /div>
I suspect when we branch 15, it's 4 years out pr= ospects will be even worse. But I don't know that for sure.

Warner

<= /div>
=3D=3D=3D
Mark Millard
marklmi at yahoo.com

--000000000000930ae105fd3dd8f8-- From nobody Sat Jun 3 20:30:31 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4QYWjn09q0z4YR9X for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2023 20:31:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from omta002.cacentral1.a.cloudfilter.net (omta002.cacentral1.a.cloudfilter.net [3.97.99.33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4QYWjm5RB5z42x9 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2023 20:31:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from shw-obgw-4003a.ext.cloudfilter.net ([10.228.9.183]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id 5Ph3qeyWD6Nwh5XuGqLbs2; Sat, 03 Jun 2023 20:31:24 +0000 Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.66.148.124]) by cmsmtp with ESMTPA id 5XuEqJK6Ocyvu5XuFqvWFs; Sat, 03 Jun 2023 20:31:24 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.4 cv=VbHkgXl9 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=647ba31c a=Cwc3rblV8FOMdVN/wOAqyQ==:117 a=Cwc3rblV8FOMdVN/wOAqyQ==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=of4jigFt-DYA:10 a=7Qk2ozbKAAAA:8 a=CjxXgO3LAAAA:8 a=j4zLzoAHAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=EkcXrb_YAAAA:8 a=DlCSJ8rPJuiklJ5SV6UA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=1lyxoWkJIXJV6VJUPhuM:22 a=NdquYzcY2JcW_1i42sf-:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=LK5xJRSDVpKd5WXXoEvA:22 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [24.244.23.95]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AEE9050AC; Sat, 3 Jun 2023 13:31:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2023 13:30:31 -0700 From: Cy Schubert To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, Warner Losh , Mark Millard CC: Emmanuel Vadot , freebsd-arch Subject: Re: Future of 32-bit platforms (including i386) In-Reply-To: References: <00E63ECC-2E7B-4C9F-9903-A8BD67278C00.ref@yahoo.com> <00E63ECC-2E7B-4C9F-9903-A8BD67278C00@yahoo.com> <3D0FACB4-A356-4FB1-BB10-0232DEBB08C0@yahoo.com> Message-ID: List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4xfIA2u2HBcixR2qedOOsaawuN/+qO0Bs9kRGkJohDHUFLI5wz1vuEhBOWVoQuvuDGD9ZFFXHgLqIpcB983xqIzEOeh2zPN7lrrytQ4URZaMNjbtS1+0/Y /jGzs9i0PGMBNa7axLx9nMbhXv9H93OcQXq4jnbs7AkrKwJG/UYSjZDkNk4y14YfE1jOV42DOBToL2W8i+4KakuVIEZC/TndJDT24HOui1aIeMoeBTAy+IJw GDIW6xyRiOBrLXlQG5ejWwNnHtRW3gasUkZ5gQ3RiFsO6aUUo+StpxpzpelWtzaP X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4QYWjm5RB5z42x9 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16509, ipnet:3.96.0.0/15, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On June 3, 2023 11:29:00 AM PDT, Warner Losh wrote: >On Sat, Jun 3, 2023, 10:44 AM Mark Millard wrote: > >> >> On May 31, 2023, at 10:30, Warner Losh wrote: >> >> > On Sun, May 28, 2023 at 10:09=E2=80=AFAM Mark Millard wrote: >> > Emmanuel Vadot wrote on >> > Date: Wed, 24 May 2023 06:35:55 UTC : >> > >> > > =2E =2E =2E >> > > >> > > I personnaly see armv7 in "degraded maintainance mode" since 13=2E0= , >> > > nothing really intersting was added, no new SoC support even if the= re >> > > was some interesting one that we could support, no new drivers for >> > > supported platforms=2E We even lost TI BeagleBone support because n= o one >> > > really have the time to keep support up to date=2E >> > > I still have some little cute boards that I want to use from time t= o >> > > time but the lack of proper porting of new language (like rust and = iirc >> > > go have problems too) is making new software unusable on those boar= ds >> > > (you can't even make some "smart speaker" for spotify as all the >> > > spotify clients are in rust)=2E >> > > IMX6 support is stalled since ian@ passed away and mmel@ isn't very >> > > active atm and they were both the most actives developers for armv7= low >> > > level code=2E >> > >> > One of the things for tier 2 is: >> > (from https://docs=2Efreebsd=2Eorg/en/articles/committers-guide/#arch= s >> > 21=2E4=2E Tier 2 section) >> > >> > QUOTE >> > Collectively, developers are required to provide the following >> > to maintain the Tier 2 status of a platform: >> > >> > =E2=80=A2 Tier 2 architectures must have an active ecosystem of u= sers and >> developers=2E >> > END QUOTE >> > >> > Is there an implication that, even for 14, the "developers" >> > part of that for armv7 has dropped off to the point that >> > tier 2 would reasonably be in question? >> > >> > For the 14 branch, armv7 seems to be right on the edge=2E Some >> > bugs do get fixed, but some of the SoCs are so poorly maintained >> > that they don't work anymore (for whatever reason)=2E So "degraded >> > maintenance mode" is likely apt for 14: it will still work, mostly, b= ut >> > many cool new things that people want, both in terms of languages >> > and new hardware support will be lacking in some way, shape or >> > form=2E Tier 2 is likely still the best tier to keep it at, imho=2E >> > >> >> One thing I was unsure of is how much the choice is driven >> by things as they are at around releng/14=2E0 vs=2E what things >> might be expected to be like around, say, releng/14=2E4 (a >> number of years later)=2E It appears that changing tier status >> is normally avoided for the likes of 14=2E[1-4] =2E >> > >A lot of it is sticking your finger in the air and projecting out 4 years= =2E >If nobody is going to be making any fixes and the code doesn't work at th= at >point, we are better off killing it now=2E For armv7, I still see bug fix= es >happening, but anticipate that any bad bug that pops up may not het fixed= =2E >I see no new hardware support absent some unforeseen resurgence=2E > >I suspect when we branch 15, it's 4 years out prospects will be even wors= e=2E >But I don't know that for sure=2E > >Warner > >=3D=3D=3D >> Mark Millard >> marklmi at yahoo=2Ecom >> >> IMO, having to "double back" to fix format errors or integer conversion er= rors causes developers just that little bit of distraction, time that added= up over time could be put to better use elsewhere=2E Compilers tend to be = more fussy these days, meaning one must pay even more attention to 64-bit v= s 32-bit than before=2E That's been my take over the years=2E --=20 Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: https://FreeBSD=2Eorg NTP: Web: https://nwtime=2Eorg e^(i*pi)+1=3D0 Pardon the typos=2E Small keyboard in use=2E