From nobody Mon Jul 24 19:33:57 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4R8r1z4r2tz4pZnS for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2023 19:33:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4R8r1z4NPDz4B6W for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2023 19:33:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1690227239; h=from:from:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=Y2n97Aih76TACH9sycPq1epZSXDonZnJFq8J5B7hb+Q=; b=YihaIN3zEeHC93Nm9G1a44H/uhslO+Mw1STpRwI2rVQ/Dc6PIx83/lXS+SC2qFqIw6CJEA Rz7XJXPcUTtjwNAMRavtREKZosuxJbl1MaipYRNvwFJeCFsM5mf/eEC7KOPd7m4LRnFruf CgvfkteB01caZkE+B1uBxFx/yJPviLlXiO9e1Hi1acciC0HkfParO8K5ru5KZKF/rbSkt3 o9UWWc9hlEsC6MqGt0wuKFBSxOHY11Qo+rQIWQ6kpkcP2gjHrBVf1dUr2r1LaW0UYdMrdG QyBBTKEfkiu6YXScZ1d6LMt8PwJm9TLkFNuGxMeWjL3YZDxnqbfEO01cVzpFSw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1690227239; h=from:from:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=Y2n97Aih76TACH9sycPq1epZSXDonZnJFq8J5B7hb+Q=; b=G0hlWX38eXDmGc6nagQL+ZY0vlhtkNYWf3jGUCgGVfINcuTELTRTpLGSV9BCKL3BooZIm4 lSuVa3MYSxQ0lNG+manSVe6AYUdOkHe/XW0yoeHKM6IRRg5bcKY0JD4kDVDZvzqYq3ZbMU MIJkz7e3LeYUGrWGh+AeOcRKtJL81AMyy+k0XWEncYzj3abynxHO2Euy887Enzh4cpLjBA a4zAWnVmq50d3nepxbxD1VY9s4nPkLdc9tdiWud02xy+OZKEZThdAnRPPvr2iESWqCuTfZ Yk4EdPhpwZ3DkNNzwWqMfWhCkfVAwR+qdSrfFvm2TVi45Iu8ziMP5ceUxhQztg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1690227239; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=cmc47VuFYf3wemqfiKfNnBsfTbGnWvRloBvoucFPy9niUxCLa7lCdvdKRaStTlo0Ev6vcK hCnTRm4/CIouJk8g1DVhkHRYqfqC9LtpJ36PSAfdrTjuZqW69zgu5Til4F1d/c6JViRolT IbUvKjXZ2VsEk2pnfVyvfs+zO7k5w88Lv8hd22JtxlzPMjppP5F7xJnXX2J4JQayt7f6ZM hqoCy8QrvwGTgzFpdm05984r96BE36SdZJBfPdTY05bpG1SVXnixLIJSj1v5LhgYQSShjP F/nGPq5bV/htBCl/n+ppgW2ZcOFLDIkU2vUMsMOCDaX454Su/l1y10joXNdXOw== Received: from [IPV6:2601:648:8680:16b0:1921:8c77:3871:6d19] (unknown [IPv6:2601:648:8680:16b0:1921:8c77:3871:6d19]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: jhb) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4R8r1z257JzJ42 for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2023 19:33:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2023 12:33:57 -0700 List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.13.0 Subject: Re: Future of 32-bit platforms (including i386) Content-Language: en-US From: John Baldwin To: 'freebsd-arch' Reply-To: 'freebsd-arch' References: <5a08b091-a1a5-1928-18e1-16c3bddb1a7f@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <5a08b091-a1a5-1928-18e1-16c3bddb1a7f@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/23/23 4:46 PM, John Baldwin wrote: > On 4/27/23 10:19 AM, John Baldwin wrote: >> For 13.0, i386 was demoted from Tier 1 to Tier 2. In the announcement >> of this for 13.0, the project committed to an update on i386's future >> around the time of 14.0. The announcement at the time suggested that >> i386 would be supported less in 14.x than in 13.x. >> >> My proposal is that for 14.x we treat i386 like any other Tier 2 >> platform. That is, release images and packages would only be provided >> on a best-effort basis, and we would not guarantee providing them. I >> think we should also stop shipping binary updates for the base system >> (freebsd-update) for 14.x for i386. >> >> A larger question is what to do about 32-bit platforms moving forward. >> My proposal for powerpc, i386, and armv[67] is that we say publicly >> that we anticipate not supporting them in 15. That is, that we may >> remove them outright from the tree, or we may leave them in the tree, >> but we do not plan on building packages or release images. Another >> option to consider for 32-bit platforms perhaps in 15 is to remove >> kernel support and only retain the ability to build userland. The >> goal of saying this now-ish (or about the time 14.0 is going to ship) >> would be to give time for users and developers to respond in the >> window between 14.0 and 15.0 so we can evaluate those responses as an >> input into the final decision for 15. > > We discussed this topic during the 15.0 developer summit and the consensus > among the folks present (which is only a subset of our community), is > that there is still interest in supporting armv7 kernels in 15.0, but not > kernels for other platforms. In addition, no one expressed a need for > full 32-bit world support for i386 and powerpc, only for compat32 support > in the kernel, and lib32 (cc -m32) support in userland. > > One question for this is if we think we will have sufficient developer > resources to maintain armv7 kernels for the life of stable/15. We can > largely punt on the final decision for that until close to the release of > 15.0. I think for what we announce for 14.0 we can still say that we > are generally planning to remove 32-bit kernel and world support in 15.0, > but may consider keeping armv7. I've posted a couple of reviews to add a WARNING to dmesg during the boot of 32-bit kernels as well as to add a note to RELNOTES to serve as the starting point for the note in the release notes: https://reviews.freebsd.org/D41163 https://reviews.freebsd.org/D41164 Also, Mike Karels has been working on lib32 support for aarch64 that should be included in 14.0. -- John Baldwin