From nobody Sat Apr 8 22:56:47 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Pv9bS4vW9z44yK5 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2023 22:56:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) Received: from smtp.rcn.com (mail.rcn.syn-alias.com [129.213.13.252]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Pv9bR2Wz6z41QK for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2023 22:56:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=rcn.com header.s=20180516 header.b=Y2YUQ1ce; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of roberthuff@rcn.com designates 129.213.13.252 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=roberthuff@rcn.com; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=rcn.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; d=rcn.com; s=20180516; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@rcn.com; t=1680994610; h=From:Subject:Date:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; bh=U75NAcD6DI+m7VwUGHCKD/9rOfg=; b=Y2YUQ1cewPgTG7u7+VxvP40BnnBxS4vzpbbG6TGFbU5R81qWi9odiUxMZ0er63WP YNqmEtT9M4E2cBHDzxk0CF9EhbBlp+WC3hKZCt4fwKcS3SZo7eXll1Gr/TkZy05U K8GguyNH8vrK8EGC/GfC0mlgNenel7D+c3jrarFhq5/Q7BSXqcqcuQgcmpAr7FkM ECRTeXIxdKPDtu49zcbMbBJV5J7TUUyH2AAtk0UVVtaRte1AfXZXo7RuctRYo776 Ejwh99eH7QSDPNOLi1Ujdyx/j/Ry1HMfzoseFfxdiaakpNPNi0cxBdeRNu9isTKN qEv9aZtMtlHwoWZDXo/Pmw==; X-Authed-Username: cm9iZXJ0aHVmZkByY24uY29t Received: from [130.44.151.156] ([130.44.151.156:20990] helo=jerusalem.litteratus.org.litteratus.org) by smtp.rcn.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 4.4.0.19839 r(msys-ecelerity:tags/4.4.0.0^0)) with ESMTPSA (cipher=AES256-GCM-SHA384) id 85/5B-31170-231F1346; Sat, 08 Apr 2023 18:56:50 -0400 List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <25649.61743.236383.879770@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2023 18:56:47 -0400 From: Robert Huff To: questions@freebsd.org Subject: seeking recommendation: UPS for Freebsd X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 28.2 (amd64-portbld-freebsd14.0) X-Vade-Verdict: clean X-Vade-Analysis-1: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvhedrvdejkedgudehucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhho X-Vade-Analysis-2: fhhilhgvmecuufgjpfetvefqtfdptfevpfdpgffpggdqtfevpfdpqfgfvfenuceurghilhhouhhtmecu X-Vade-Analysis-3: fedtudenucenucfjughrpeggtgfgkfffhffvuffosehtjeertdertddvnecuhfhrohhmpeftohgsvghr X-Vade-Analysis-4: thcujfhufhhfuceorhhosggvrhhthhhufhhfsehrtghnrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpedu X-Vade-Analysis-5: fedugeetieeludefhfeitdffteekgeejhfekueekgeevffekledvjedvleegfeenucfkphepudeftddr X-Vade-Analysis-6: geegrdduhedurdduheeinecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehinhgvthepudef X-Vade-Analysis-7: tddrgeegrdduhedurdduheeipdhhvghlohepjhgvrhhushgrlhgvmhdrlhhithhtvghrrghtuhhsrdho X-Vade-Analysis-8: rhhgrdhlihhtthgvrhgrthhushdrohhrghdpmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehrohgsvghrthhhuhhffhesrhgt X-Vade-Analysis-9: nhdrtghomhdprhgtphhtthhopehquhgvshhtihhonhhssehfrhgvvggsshgurdhorhhgpdhmthgrhhho X-Vade-Analysis-10: shhtpehsmhhtphdtuddrrhgtnhdrvghmrghilhdqrghshhdurdhshihntgdrlhgrnhdpnhgspghrtghp X-Vade-Analysis-11: thhtohepuddpihhspghnrgepthhruhgvpdgruhhthhgpuhhsvghrpehrohgsvghrthhhuhhffh X-Vade-Client: RCN X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.999]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rcn.com,none]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:129.213.13.252/32]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rcn.com:s=20180516]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:31898, ipnet:129.213.8.0/21, country:US]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[129.213.13.252:from]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rcn.com:+]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[rcn.com:dkim] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Pv9bR2Wz6z41QK X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N Hello: I have an older APC UPS (BackUPS RS 1500) that after years of excellent service _may_ need to be replaced. Is there a particular brand - or even model - that folks would recommend for a medium-to-heavy home office environment? (This isn't the only UPS; it's just the only one causiong problems right now.) Budget is not unlimited, so I'm not looking for anything fancy; just something that will (with replacement batteries) just do its job for the next 15+ years. And - of course - works with software running on FreeGSD. (I use apcupsd, and have seen nut used elsewhere.) Respectfully, Robert Huff From nobody Sun Apr 9 03:35:31 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PvHn62bVgz43VmQ for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2023 03:35:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chris@monochrome.org) Received: from mail.monochrome.org (static-71-163-255-121.washdc.fios.verizon.net [71.163.255.121]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail", Issuer "mail" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PvHn574djz3Ktk for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2023 03:35:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chris@monochrome.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from tripel.monochrome.org (tripel.monochrome.org [192.168.1.11]) by mail.monochrome.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 3393ZVQe044904; Sat, 8 Apr 2023 23:35:31 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from chris@monochrome.org) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2023 23:35:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Hill To: Robert Huff cc: questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: seeking recommendation: UPS for Freebsd In-Reply-To: <25649.61743.236383.879770@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Message-ID: References: <25649.61743.236383.879770@jerusalem.litteratus.org> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (BSF 67 2015-01-07) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PvHn574djz3Ktk X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:701, ipnet:71.163.0.0/16, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Sat, 8 Apr 2023, Robert Huff wrote: (lightly snipped) > I have an older APC UPS (BackUPS RS 1500) that after years of > excellent service _may_ need to be replaced. Do check the batteries first. The lead-acid gel cells used in UPSes don't last forever, and will need to be replaced now and then. If your UPS is 10-ish years old or more, I'd suspect the batteries first. > Is there a particular brand - or even model - that folks would > recommend for a medium-to-heavy home office environment? (This isn't > the only UPS; it's just the only one causiong problems right now.) I have two APC "Smart UPS C1500." I'm using them in just such an environment, and I've been very happy with them. I bought them because I grew weary of the consumer-grade garbage I'd been using. The APCs absolutely do not draw attention to themselves. > Budget is not unlimited, so I'm not looking for anything fancy; > just something that will (with replacement batteries) just do its job > for the next 15+ years. The 1500s were neither expensive nor cheap. Between 300 and 400 USD each if I recall. I'm not averse to paying a little extra for something that will work right and not break. I chose this model because I'd used many of them for projects at work; it's at the low end of "professional" UPSes. I can't really address longevity; I only got these maybe 6 years ago. -- Chris Hill chris@monochrome.org From nobody Sun Apr 9 04:12:23 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PvJbm4VBsz43Y88 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2023 04:12:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Olivier.Nicole@cs.ait.ac.th) Received: from mail.cs.ait.ac.th (mail.cs.ait.ac.th [192.41.170.16]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PvJbj0tSRz3FR5 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2023 04:12:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Olivier.Nicole@cs.ait.ac.th) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cs.ait.ac.th header.s=selector1 header.b=AJpYDgMO; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of Olivier.Nicole@cs.ait.ac.th designates 192.41.170.16 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=Olivier.Nicole@cs.ait.ac.th; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=cs.ait.ac.th Received: from mail.cs.ait.ac.th (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cs.ait.ac.th (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4B5E89286; Sun, 9 Apr 2023 11:12:25 +0700 (+07) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.ait.ac.th; h= content-type:content-type:mime-version:message-id:date:date :in-reply-to:subject:subject:from:from:received:received :received; s=selector1; t=1681013545; x=1682827946; bh=AmprpEnSL ut35P1MdIL0r+NV3o+6nMjT2r3BgL9yesU=; b=AJpYDgMO5YeltnqZ1gmH+IuEV J2ByoTf0F4OwwULYbRKKck7vKerkoRWdEetRfY8xmjHP0U42efY/Fft1zhGunx9o RZiGsKsdxyZ0XYD0/1/Qi9XUnSJMWM3SjBMyURpKQmAtfDbRHSEJXfNEqg6hF7PM 0QFrVNe+09ra/gtzNs= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at cs.ait.ac.th Received: from mail.cs.ait.ac.th ([127.0.0.1]) by mail.cs.ait.ac.th (mail.cs.ait.ac.th [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id MWgcQd3Te3GU; Sun, 9 Apr 2023 11:12:25 +0700 (+07) Received: from banyan.cs.ait.ac.th (banyan.cs.ait.ac.th [192.41.170.5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.cs.ait.ac.th (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 05BD689283; Sun, 9 Apr 2023 11:12:24 +0700 (+07) Received: (from on@localhost) by banyan.cs.ait.ac.th (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 3394CNSA093364; Sun, 9 Apr 2023 11:12:23 +0700 (ICT) (envelope-from on@banyan.cs.ait.ac.th) From: Olivier To: Chris Hill Cc: roberthuff@rcn.com, questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: seeking recommendation: UPS for Freebsd In-Reply-To: (message from Chris Hill on Sat, 8 Apr 2023 23:35:31 -0400 (EDT)) Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2023 11:12:23 +0700 Message-ID: List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.67 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.97)[-0.975]; RCVD_DKIM_ARC_DNSWL_MED(-0.50)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[cs.ait.ac.th,none]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cs.ait.ac.th:s=selector1]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[192.41.170.16:from]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cs.ait.ac.th:+]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROMTLD(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:4767, ipnet:192.41.170.0/24, country:TH] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PvJbj0tSRz3FR5 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N >> I have an older APC UPS (BackUPS RS 1500) that after years of >> excellent service _may_ need to be replaced. > > Do check the batteries first. The lead-acid gel cells used in UPSes > don't last forever, and will need to be replaced now and then. If your > UPS is 10-ish years old or more, I'd suspect the batteries first. >From experience, my batteries usually last 2 to 3 years in APC. That may be due to cheap quality... So I know I have to change the batteries on a regular basis, to the point I have the batterie installation date on a sticker on the front of the UPS's so I can know when I need to change them. Olivier From nobody Sun Apr 9 10:25:21 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PvSt72XBXz44F02 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2023 10:25:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from louise9841@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pj1-x1031.google.com (mail-pj1-x1031.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1031]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PvSt65Qb5z4QK9 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2023 10:25:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from louise9841@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=O6sD+qiA; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of louise9841@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::1031 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=louise9841@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com Received: by mail-pj1-x1031.google.com with SMTP id j14-20020a17090a7e8e00b002448c0a8813so6515541pjl.0 for ; Sun, 09 Apr 2023 03:25:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1681035933; x=1683627933; h=to:message-id:subject:date:mime-version:from :content-transfer-encoding:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=Miql1+i1o/plXpLr4uxZfp/LCI7QAoC5G9qr0gGeTRs=; b=O6sD+qiAhvPl7C1p0/HAq+BCgsgVV9tA1HqJhxA5amEaaC5XJYJUIsegGS8pOIUV4H Pa5NBzNVsNMaNEkJPzWd2UqQUmbGYYBMsYQ/a15mT6Qdw6XfErcfz/6vNyoZO+osk5BC 5XAPSG+3KWkbCrApNYG8GP5rs12WOj1T8yiwXsUQo5jfezKjCK8qkI6LjobLsZztcFJJ ecOmYj+wL6vwfCNzDwZgLrcbVNB+UzlowVXDmrF0/0pGiE21lgnAN854sDuXvKmYKXxZ CSb3z5T2MPgeg8q4d95tW0qL+/j8otAXnn1qQ2IyjuM+DzMuhOpK6TtfVNWMyQ6bsaRB QTJg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1681035933; x=1683627933; h=to:message-id:subject:date:mime-version:from :content-transfer-encoding:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject :date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Miql1+i1o/plXpLr4uxZfp/LCI7QAoC5G9qr0gGeTRs=; b=EySy/ojYxsSrl06u6RcrooZJj9ARH1Y8rkLc6UqJHOhXtvVP+9esKUWnhgKo4Cj0Df BSZenLci3aDoxnD1BMXXWKH23omGNF4tWpuGqw1rbP6QcLH4VCBxhgyz9Ti+cdqFMeGR xeu+6rzq8MhKZUnnNY0a/Q0m3zJFnNP0c8jN9nNqfXgg7JEGn72ayUE/gg/NTKcfJuw/ Pd/DhyN0wLAq1xolSDtAg6Loh9I/Jc1m2T1eo76b2D1Q1FOoE7gz/bqnTvmFeC/h4NEn j51lLJ7wMZyX2XJdDj3kSubdwLB62epGqgxh3gBdTjgKMm6IfrVVFjhFtNdwVcU/CwJe ckMw== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9d+rjP8BqxhLINSV9pbA2tF064b2rY+OV8lS4cRhhKoE5kwJAIQ +MbaPpGvrF5qFl5OXw/qBt6HhwhKuUG3DQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350YuQy0RIDmXo+7hHXv9Iip6nrZAOJB+/9quvVuXmp9tJgdp4qt10jg0vkEUrYq/Jo6gER/xjw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:d491:b0:19e:839e:49d8 with SMTP id c17-20020a170902d49100b0019e839e49d8mr10817664plg.59.1681035932686; Sun, 09 Apr 2023 03:25:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple ([2600:6c51:447f:4201:f547:10af:97f0:ef33]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k10-20020a170902694a00b00192aa53a7d5sm3460660plt.8.2023.04.09.03.25.32 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 09 Apr 2023 03:25:32 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: louise9841@gmail.com List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2023 03:25:21 -0700 Subject: FreeBSD Comparable Technologies Message-Id: To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (20D67) X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.10 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.40)[0.403]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20210112]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_NO_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::1031:from]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PvSt65Qb5z4QK9 X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N Hello, I am new to FreeBSD in terms of using it as a home router/firewall. I= m trying to implement the FreeBSD equivalent or similar way of doing things l= ike I did on my Linux Router. Are there are equivalent ways/programs for the= following: 1. Reverse Path Filter (Like on Linux). 2. Protection against DHCP Starvation attacks. 3. DHCP Snooping 4. Reply-Only ARP system with features like(automatically adding arps for le= ases) that keep people from setting a static ip on the network and bypassing= the queueing done by pf. P.S.: If there are any ways of doing these options above can you point me to= the right documentation as I have tried to research but couldn=E2=80=99t fi= nd any thing on these subjects listed above. Thank you, Lou= From nobody Sun Apr 9 10:41:01 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PvTDS1Mh8z44FXG for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2023 10:41:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from smithi@nimnet.asn.au) Received: from h1.out1.mxs.au (h1.out1.mxs.au [110.232.143.235]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PvTDR5Q3yz3sjN for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2023 10:41:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from smithi@nimnet.asn.au) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from s121.syd3.hostingplatform.net.au (s121.syd3.hostingplatform.net.au [103.27.34.4]) by out1.mxs.au (Halon) with ESMTPS id 0a6f1fd5-d6c3-11ed-bf4a-00163c39b365; Sun, 09 Apr 2023 20:41:10 +1000 (AEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; 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charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: seeking recommendation: UPS for Freebsd To: Olivier ,Chris Hill CC: roberthuff@rcn.com,questions@freebsd.org From: Ian Smith Message-ID: <9696D441-4956-4DF0-A03D-3FD9486DF680@nimnet.asn.au> X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - s121.syd3.hostingplatform.net.au X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - freebsd.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - nimnet.asn.au X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: s121.syd3.hostingplatform.net.au: authenticated_id: smithi@nimnet.asn.au X-Authenticated-Sender: s121.syd3.hostingplatform.net.au: smithi@nimnet.asn.au X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PvTDR5Q3yz3sjN X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:45638, ipnet:110.232.140.0/22, country:AU] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On 9 April 2023 2:12:23 pm AEST, Olivier wrote: > >> I have an older APC UPS (BackUPS RS 1500) that after years of=20 > >> excellent service _may_ need to be replaced=2E > > > > Do check the batteries first=2E The lead-acid gel cells used in UPSes > > don't last forever, and will need to be replaced now and then=2E If y= our > > UPS is 10-ish years old or more, I'd suspect the batteries first=2E > From experience, my batteries usually last 2 to 3 years in APC=2E That = may > be due to cheap quality=2E=2E=2E So I know I have to change the batteri= es > on a > regular basis, to the point I have the batterie installation date on a > sticker on the front of the UPS's so I can know when I need to change > them=2E We've had a couple of smaller Eatons, and found decent quality 12V gel cel= ls tend to last 3 to 5 years, depending on how often they're discharged tow= ard exhausion - maybe a dozen times some years, in a rural high-thunderstor= m area=2E Even if rarely discharged I'd be surprised to get 10 years from a gel batt= ery, apart from large stationary (e=2Eg=2E solar) setups=2E When we remember, we do an annual measurement exhaustion test, to be sure= =2E cheers, Ian From nobody Sun Apr 9 13:34:33 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PvY4G65SZz44R6H for ; 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X-Authed-Username: cm9iZXJ0aHVmZkByY24uY29t Received: from [130.44.151.156] ([130.44.151.156:46392] helo=jerusalem.litteratus.org.litteratus.org) by smtp.rcn.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 4.4.0.19839 r(msys-ecelerity:tags/4.4.0.0^0)) with ESMTPSA (cipher=AES256-GCM-SHA384) id 4A/6C-31170-CEEB2346; Sun, 09 Apr 2023 09:34:36 -0400 List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <25650.48873.53849.565225@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2023 09:34:33 -0400 From: Robert Huff To: questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: seeking recommendation: UPS for Freebsd In-Reply-To: <9696D441-4956-4DF0-A03D-3FD9486DF680@nimnet.asn.au> References: <9696D441-4956-4DF0-A03D-3FD9486DF680@nimnet.asn.au> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 28.2 (amd64-portbld-freebsd14.0) X-Vade-Verdict: clean X-Vade-Analysis-1: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvhedrvdektddgieejucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhho X-Vade-Analysis-2: fhhilhgvmecuufgjpfetvefqtfdptfevpfdpgffpggdqtfevpfdpqfgfvfenuceurghilhhouhhtmecu X-Vade-Analysis-3: fedtudenucenucfjughrpeggtgfgkfffhffvufgjfhfosehtjeertdertddvnecuhfhrohhmpeftohgs X-Vade-Analysis-4: vghrthcujfhufhhfuceorhhosggvrhhthhhufhhfsehrtghnrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhn X-Vade-Analysis-5: pedttdelkeethfeggefgveelueegvdeludehueeuvdegjeeivdffiefffeethffgueenucfkphepudef X-Vade-Analysis-6: tddrgeegrdduhedurdduheeinecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehinhgvthep X-Vade-Analysis-7: udeftddrgeegrdduhedurdduheeipdhhvghlohepjhgvrhhushgrlhgvmhdrlhhithhtvghrrghtuhhs X-Vade-Analysis-8: rdhorhhgrdhlihhtthgvrhgrthhushdrohhrghdpmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehrohgsvghrthhhuhhffhes X-Vade-Analysis-9: rhgtnhdrtghomhdprhgtphhtthhopehquhgvshhtihhonhhssehfrhgvvggsshgurdhorhhgpdhmthgr X-Vade-Analysis-10: hhhoshhtpehsmhhtphdtuddrrhgtnhdrvghmrghilhdqrghshhdurdhshihntgdrlhgrnhdpnhgspghr X-Vade-Analysis-11: tghpthhtohepuddpihhspghnrgepthhruhgvpdgruhhthhgpuhhsvghrpehrohgsvghrthhhuhhffh X-Vade-Client: RCN X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.999]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rcn.com,none]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:129.213.13.252/32]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rcn.com:s=20180516]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:31898, ipnet:129.213.8.0/21, country:US]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[129.213.13.252:from]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rcn.com:+]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[rcn.com:dkim] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PvY4F69mwz44JW X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N Thanks for the suggestions, but battery issues are not the prime suspect. I change the batteries every ~5 years, or earlier when the unit indicates. In fact, one of the batteries used for testing is brand new .... This is why I'm doing recon on new units. Respectfully, Robert Huff From nobody Sun Apr 9 14:04:54 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PvYlw6sHsz44W3D for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2023 14:05:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yb1-xb33.google.com (mail-yb1-xb33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b33]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PvYlw1GVGz4JM2 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2023 14:05:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=Bs+by9Z8; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of marietto2008@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::b33 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=marietto2008@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com Received: by mail-yb1-xb33.google.com with SMTP id y186so2501370yby.13 for ; Sun, 09 Apr 2023 07:05:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1681049130; x=1683641130; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=ysTw0Ddg+6LYHuj7nIe3oCufsSXO+FkF9A4O9pu8V80=; b=Bs+by9Z85NFF0rEI/H9b287YAm43pQcPxy44S08tCaFFJEjoT3mZCAlWZAHacC+qGC 3IzOV6oI99QuQlw4RttKovAj42VOgc8lHAm45a1BKwGHyhqsC+MeowLHINIsnVy1j9oL MAZ++zAR319s6ReqyVjv3cH5XzGYbY8z6y0cMNYt6HNBWGguQWm7F7Xld+/H2VqbeVLC uRumnJxgxQcku1EJy2/TkNQp3oO2wRTa/7pHJO6d/UhrzRaCMftEaHhdqXQ7FUHc5/xN fT9d4NQThHUWIXgJdlRoe5PYFXbj7qGZ2bLQ9VthHyLo7GvGroTAJqeqD1XSHrAG8lgL IQFg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1681049131; x=1683641131; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=ysTw0Ddg+6LYHuj7nIe3oCufsSXO+FkF9A4O9pu8V80=; b=Zp08LrDx3VvyHzXGYfoiJzRlLZHEgFkR05LLgfJVuNNUymXGWHr857EfrweAZ2CXT5 tK+Hn8hL82DyUNPep/H6lNOW81abUjRNQDPs+CpHh6Z5012zSQyQhXj47eP0umu9rjFu uS89TnUlbst/7vJS6JL1WqUPBnyElZojtpDLVOhSoYkAg/WRx2NlY2C13reHRFcpEzac qVukC2B3FjycQgP/u0xPvn51M19FkgySPFufPcMt9ptqv7sM9QbQ716UEq1BSp4l4SY4 DojerYSfiLl4jKMBrdHKqZffEBNVTEptgr3ftcn6o+j/TPDYddACfhxfyBX2c1g7yTly jxpA== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9d0ZHD5tXDG/pCnEnLBmIPaWzEmm/kxG4g5Dq/cyfJ6jG/sdN5i kyzD9hfB6rOvOfFCMOh3tWA+a3gurkdEx30IfTPDHedxHqSefg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350bjcgOXxPQh/no/p+q9r8pfmlWVLZYCcrULgkF6O+W+91vJRXk16EZDS/R2iNzi7BfNU6tVstWPY2q6mswu0gY= X-Received: by 2002:a25:3306:0:b0:b8b:f5fb:5986 with SMTP id z6-20020a253306000000b00b8bf5fb5986mr5480439ybz.10.1681049130401; Sun, 09 Apr 2023 07:05:30 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> In-Reply-To: <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> From: Mario Marietto Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2023 16:04:54 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Docker To: Tim Preston Cc: Paul Mather , John Levine , FreeBSD Mailing List , tomek@cedro.info Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000044848d05f8e7c0c3" X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.29 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.29)[-0.288]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20210112]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::b33:from]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROMTLD(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PvYlw1GVGz4JM2 X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --00000000000044848d05f8e7c0c3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It seems that docker now can run on FreeBSD natively,not with the collaboration of bhyve. What do you think ? He says : "Yes, OCI Containers on FreeBSD. What was proposed ages ago as Do= cker done right" https://productionwithscissors.run/2022/09/04/containerd-linux-on-freebsd/ On Tue, Apr 4, 2023 at 4:23=E2=80=AFAM Tim Preston wro= te: > It can be done, with a bit of manual tinkering. > > Here is a gist which explains how to run Docker in a CentOS 8 VM (under > bhyve). > > https://gist.github.com/tehpeh/7e5329d295eca9539e6462f36b6ce9c0 > > It's a bit out of date but the general idea would be the same for CentOS > stream, Alpine etc: install Docker, enable the service, open > firewall/networking, nfs mount a local directory. This is pretty much wha= t > Docker for Mac does. > > If you're looking for the Docker hub image repository equivalent for > FreeBSD, take a look at Bastille templates or Potluck ( > https://potluck.honeyguide.net/). > > However, and this is only my personal opinion, a pre-baked container imag= e > repository is a bad idea. Apart from the security issues and recent drama > around Docker shutting down free accounts, container images are often set > up with default parameters not useful in a production environment (or eve= n > your specific dev environment) and are built against a particular kernel > version, so may not run as expected on a different kernel version. > > Again, only my opinion, but you're much better off building your own, > private, images targeting the particular OS/Kernel version you use in > dev/staging/production. In summary, prefer Dockerfiles over pre-built > images. > > I think the conversation we really need to have is not about copying > Docker, but instead how do we consistently create, run, and scale jails > across multiple FreeBSD hosts easily. > > Tim > > > On 2/4/23 02:54, Paul Mather wrote: > > On Mar 29, 2023, at 1:34 AM, John Levine wrote: > > > It appears that Tomek CEDRO said: > > if there are lots of images for linux docker, and docker is linux only > solution, there is no reason to talk about it on bsd or even offer some > sort of images of bsd for linux right? > > Docker runs on MacOS with a linux emulation layer. FreeBSD already has > some linux emulation so in principle one could do the same thing, but > it'd be a lot of work for dubious benefit. > > I disagree it would be of dubious benefit. MacOS is a Tier 1 platform in= the Docker ecosystem. Using Docker Desktop on macOS makes using Docker an= d Kubernetes for development work very easy on that platform, meaning you c= an stay in the environment you prefer. MacOS is not Linux, but the impleme= ntation on there is to use a shim Linux VM via the built-in macOS hyperviso= r (which, IIRC, is a derivative of bhyve). > > It would be great if the same thing could be done on FreeBSD. It would b= e beneficial if there was a supported docker machine driver for bhyve on Fr= eeBSD. Right now, I believe the road to running Linux containers on FreeBS= D is to use the VirtualBox docker machine driver, which is a bit heavyweigh= t (in terms of added dependencies) for my liking. It would be nice if bhyv= e could be used to run the shim Linux VM. > > Other than that, much of the tooling to run Docker and Kubernetes is alre= ady in ports. But, those (e.g., in the case of Kubernetes) need to point t= o non-FreeBSD systems that are running the actual containers, pods, etc. I= t would be nice to be able to do it all on FreeBSD, at least for developmen= t and kicking-the-tyres purposes. > > Cheers, > > Paul. > > > > --=20 Mario. --00000000000044848d05f8e7c0c3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It seems that docker now can run on FreeBSD natively,= not with the collaboration of bhyve. What do you think ?

He says : "Yes, OCI Containers on FreeBSD. What was proposed ages a= go as Docker done right"


On Tue, Apr 4, 2023 at 4:23=E2=80=AFAM Tim Preston <tim@timpreston.net> wrote:
=20 =20 =20
It can be done, with a bit of manual tinkering.

Here is a gist which explains how to run Docker in a CentOS 8 VM (under bhyve).

https://gist.github.com/tehpeh/7e5329d295eca9539e646= 2f36b6ce9c0

It's a bit out of date but the general idea would be the same for CentOS stream, Alpine etc: install Docker, enable the service, open firewall/networking, nfs mount a local directory. This is pretty much what Docker for Mac does.

If you're looking for the Docker hub image repository equivalent fo= r FreeBSD, take a look at Bastille templates or Potluck (https://= potluck.honeyguide.net/).

However, and this is only my personal opinion, a pre-baked container image repository is a bad idea. Apart from the security issues and recent drama around Docker shutting down free accounts, container images are often set up with default parameters not useful in a production environment (or even your specific dev environment) and are built against a particular kernel version, so may not run as expected on a different kernel version.

Again, only my opinion, but you're much better off building your own, private, images targeting the particular OS/Kernel version you use in dev/staging/production. In summary, prefer Dockerfiles over pre-built images.

I think the conversation we really need to have is not about copying Docker, but instead how do we consistently create, run, and scale jails across multiple FreeBSD hosts easily.

Tim


On 2/4/23 02:54, Paul Mather wrote:
On Mar 29, 2023, at 1:34 AM, John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:


It appears that Tomek CEDRO <tomek@cedro.info> said:

if there are lots of images for linux docker, and docker is =
linux only
solution, there is no reason to talk about it on bsd or even offer some
sort of images of bsd for linux right?

Docker runs on MacOS with a linux emulation layer.  FreeBSD al=
ready has
some linux emulation so in principle one could do the same thing, but
it'd be a lot of work for dubious benefit.

I disagree it would be of dubious benefit.  MacOS is a Tier 1 pl=
atform in the Docker ecosystem.  Using Docker Desktop on macOS makes using =
Docker and Kubernetes for development work very easy on that platform, mean=
ing you can stay in the environment you prefer.  MacOS is not Linux, but th=
e implementation on there is to use a shim Linux VM via the built-in macOS =
hypervisor (which, IIRC, is a derivative of bhyve).

It would be great if the same thing could be done on FreeBSD.  It would be =
beneficial if there was a supported docker machine driver for bhyve on Free=
BSD.  Right now, I believe the road to running Linux containers on FreeBSD =
is to use the VirtualBox docker machine driver, which is a bit heavyweight =
(in terms of added dependencies) for my liking.  It would be nice if bhyve =
could be used to run the shim Linux VM.

Other than that, much of the tooling to run Docker and Kubernetes is alread=
y in ports.  But, those (e.g., in the case of Kubernetes) need to point to =
non-FreeBSD systems that are running the actual containers, pods, etc.  It =
would be nice to be able to do it all on FreeBSD, at least for development =
and kicking-the-tyres purposes.

Cheers,

Paul.



--
Mario.
--00000000000044848d05f8e7c0c3-- From nobody Sun Apr 9 14:23:33 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PvZlY6C9Qz44YRB for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2023 14:50:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ipluta@wp.pl) Received: from mx3.wp.pl (mx3.wp.pl [212.77.101.9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PvZlX4thcz4dJf for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2023 14:50:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ipluta@wp.pl) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: (wp-smtpd smtp.wp.pl 24150 invoked from network); 9 Apr 2023 16:23:33 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=wp.pl; s=1024a; t=1681050213; bh=PvYcfceMyskwgIdNl1Q3jAsXIzjlH1arih9E6o3+kFk=; h=Subject:To:From; b=YBXszbJ1GgkDb0E5zX/PEFxXfjjCF2QiVDKa6MUqvcgFVEmqcNPO1dVF8IV55DknQ ggt1uUJSGKxNkxz7qCoYmqeBDHntSbvpZf7wbLl/iJ6bDqXGTV/4cBAODpD6igWXCG 7NlEgqSeZawrsManJmY/SvU/v5AP2iaeGymry2/Y= Received: from 83.5.150.3.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl (HELO [10.0.0.202]) (ipluta@wp.pl@[83.5.150.3]) (envelope-sender ) by smtp.wp.pl (WP-SMTPD) with ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 encrypted SMTP for ; 9 Apr 2023 16:23:33 +0200 Message-ID: <5df1744b-8cde-cd74-7aa6-8ce4a3e46ddf@wp.pl> Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2023 16:23:33 +0200 List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.9.0 Subject: Re: seeking recommendation: UPS for Freebsd Content-Language: pl-PL To: Robert Huff , questions@freebsd.org References: <9696D441-4956-4DF0-A03D-3FD9486DF680@nimnet.asn.au> <25650.48873.53849.565225@jerusalem.litteratus.org> From: "Ireneusz Pluta/wp.pl" In-Reply-To: <25650.48873.53849.565225@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-WP-MailID: 7249c11545c7cf2b60285068c0f2ffdf X-WP-AV: skaner antywirusowy Poczty Wirtualnej Polski X-WP-SPAM: NO 0000001 [YQLh] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PvZlX4thcz4dJf X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:12827, ipnet:212.77.101.0/24, country:PL] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N W dniu 9.04.2023 o 15:34, Robert Huff pisze: > Thanks for the suggestions, but battery issues are not the prime > suspect. I change the batteries every ~5 years, or earlier when the > unit indicates. > In fact, one of the batteries used for testing is brand new .... > This is why I'm doing recon on new units. you probably need to recalibrate https://community.se.com/t5/APC-UPS-for-Home-and-Office-Forum/Back-UPS-Pro-1500-Battery-Calibration-Estimated-Run-Time/td-p/293195 HTH From nobody Sun Apr 9 17:06:25 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Pvdmr0B5rz44j5X; Sun, 9 Apr 2023 17:06:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from possessor.assizer305@aceecat.org) Received: from beesty.loosely.org (beesty.loosely.org [IPv6:2600:3c01:e000:4c0::2]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Pvdmp3pq5z3yfH; Sun, 9 Apr 2023 17:06:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from possessor.assizer305@aceecat.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=aceecat.org header.s=rsa header.b=Innm9Vlt; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of possessor.assizer305@aceecat.org designates 2600:3c01:e000:4c0::2 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=possessor.assizer305@aceecat.org; dmarc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aceecat.org ; s=rsa; h=In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID: Subject:To:From:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=wvVaUrjaBa4ZaYYCUpLBIxNVgfmvyeR7MYCWpugTu6E=; b=Innm9VltaG6VcuikPe9Tv4xOn6 LWZU/lMiBHSB3iwLREGj5BU35GJBY95tzdZt6Tfk2EwAeU6VNyHtlmvDxudrJGvrCcJTDTmDBrdeu VCp/Ez2P1uodTEyyENU4GAWEEC0kz6pHuKKqNvKhPZKYCpTiCXOMPP2bZNc3Q0ecE3mjrKctL8mCs jgwpYza8QPD4ykGIwDAdMmvWFmUn0y/64LhmI9NgfdVZRIG/0+QsGCvKu/mu9SugZDPYMOZNTRYSf k8nAQbPVFVr+pyG/ZDL8Bb7lk03iVHi3myVm3dcB3nZbpG1aptpptDRzdD3NvrMmSnvLXiM7I5Kwh qUuEpF4g==; Received: from [::1] (port=45966 helo=beesty ident=itz) by beesty.loosely.org with esmtp (Exim 4.96-10-06ec9c57f) (envelope-from ) id 1plYUj-0002Qg-2w; Sun, 09 Apr 2023 10:06:25 -0700 Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2023 10:06:25 -0700 From: possessor.assizer305@aceecat.org To: questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Comparable Technologies Message-ID: <20230409170625.rtarpa2rlwrtvkb2@beesty> Mail-Followup-To: questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.98 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.981]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[aceecat.org:s=rsa]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org,freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:63949, ipnet:2600:3c01::/32, country:SG]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[aceecat.org:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_NO_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[aceecat.org]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Pvdmp3pq5z3yfH X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Sun, Apr 09, 2023 at 03:25:21AM -0700, louise9841@gmail.com wrote: > Hello, I am new to FreeBSD in terms of using it as a home > router/firewall. Im trying to implement the FreeBSD equivalent or > similar way of doing things like I did on my Linux Router. Are there > are equivalent ways/programs for the following: > 1. Reverse Path Filter (Like on Linux). > 2. Protection against DHCP Starvation attacks. > 3. DHCP Snooping > 4. Reply-Only ARP system with features like(automatically adding > arps for leases) that keep people from setting a static ip on the > network and bypassing the queueing done by pf. As you can see from this thread https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions/2023-February/002819.html there are some major high level differences between the two kernels when it comes to IP routing, and that may make finding exact analogues of the Linux firewall features hard or impossible. Or maybe not - I hope not. -- Ian From nobody Sun Apr 9 17:06:25 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Pvdmr0B5rz44j5X; Sun, 9 Apr 2023 17:06:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from possessor.assizer305@aceecat.org) Received: from beesty.loosely.org (beesty.loosely.org [IPv6:2600:3c01:e000:4c0::2]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Pvdmp3pq5z3yfH; Sun, 9 Apr 2023 17:06:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from possessor.assizer305@aceecat.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=aceecat.org header.s=rsa header.b=Innm9Vlt; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of possessor.assizer305@aceecat.org designates 2600:3c01:e000:4c0::2 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=possessor.assizer305@aceecat.org; dmarc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aceecat.org ; s=rsa; h=In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID: Subject:To:From:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=wvVaUrjaBa4ZaYYCUpLBIxNVgfmvyeR7MYCWpugTu6E=; b=Innm9VltaG6VcuikPe9Tv4xOn6 LWZU/lMiBHSB3iwLREGj5BU35GJBY95tzdZt6Tfk2EwAeU6VNyHtlmvDxudrJGvrCcJTDTmDBrdeu VCp/Ez2P1uodTEyyENU4GAWEEC0kz6pHuKKqNvKhPZKYCpTiCXOMPP2bZNc3Q0ecE3mjrKctL8mCs jgwpYza8QPD4ykGIwDAdMmvWFmUn0y/64LhmI9NgfdVZRIG/0+QsGCvKu/mu9SugZDPYMOZNTRYSf k8nAQbPVFVr+pyG/ZDL8Bb7lk03iVHi3myVm3dcB3nZbpG1aptpptDRzdD3NvrMmSnvLXiM7I5Kwh qUuEpF4g==; Received: from [::1] (port=45966 helo=beesty ident=itz) by beesty.loosely.org with esmtp (Exim 4.96-10-06ec9c57f) (envelope-from ) id 1plYUj-0002Qg-2w; Sun, 09 Apr 2023 10:06:25 -0700 Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2023 10:06:25 -0700 From: possessor.assizer305@aceecat.org To: questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Comparable Technologies Message-ID: <20230409170625.rtarpa2rlwrtvkb2@beesty> Mail-Followup-To: questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.98 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.981]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[aceecat.org:s=rsa]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org,freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:63949, ipnet:2600:3c01::/32, country:SG]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[aceecat.org:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_NO_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[aceecat.org]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Pvdmp3pq5z3yfH X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Sun, Apr 09, 2023 at 03:25:21AM -0700, louise9841@gmail.com wrote: > Hello, I am new to FreeBSD in terms of using it as a home > router/firewall. Im trying to implement the FreeBSD equivalent or > similar way of doing things like I did on my Linux Router. Are there > are equivalent ways/programs for the following: > 1. Reverse Path Filter (Like on Linux). > 2. Protection against DHCP Starvation attacks. > 3. DHCP Snooping > 4. Reply-Only ARP system with features like(automatically adding > arps for leases) that keep people from setting a static ip on the > network and bypassing the queueing done by pf. As you can see from this thread https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions/2023-February/002819.html there are some major high level differences between the two kernels when it comes to IP routing, and that may make finding exact analogues of the Linux firewall features hard or impossible. Or maybe not - I hope not. -- Ian From nobody Mon Apr 10 02:49:00 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Pvtj05fynz44f8J for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2023 02:49:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from holgerdanske.com (holgerdanske.com [IPv6:2001:470:0:19b::b869:801b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "holgerdanske.com", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Pvthz5fW2z3DZk for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2023 02:49:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=holgerdanske.com header.s=nov-20210719-112354 header.b=nCDH8UhX; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpchrist@holgerdanske.com designates 2001:470:0:19b::b869:801b as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dpchrist@holgerdanske.com; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=holgerdanske.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=holgerdanske.com; s=nov-20210719-112354; t=1681094941; bh=B2Q44Tyn2Rdg+2TOgg8RJ37K/fbVMCELEPHRPts98iM=; h=Received:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:User-Agent:Subject: Content-Language:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=nCDH8UhXL/TV26KxcSXNHfrqbgMHULLi3gi/w+/h52xbkg4aU+mTU5yy4OlfOvmy7 8GjqFkzahqBQFpvZ9mPrbUq019jRpfKtDPNJryriB2QFNziUP3SRYeTOKL2lNH6zVm 3pgRGRhGYtfomt74NgrtSKl2vCrjJfbhr9P8C3lzhE5yGtz+Rs51lpCyNWSyaOOJbv pqbcrgevKO/DLZjmNK0rJDlblE5A8aLIojm12nmSR9aF/m6O0Q01dOj9owhzUgFfN2 lxMhZqrV/X8+SkUyz7liZ5NbqOyTlafeVSABAdO67oU4eiAkO9qnhKnQHS/AEQcQ4w lxYROPUX3kzVbtZTg5ygi5aKfDQvliiplyTP3Jgv+t3BnlHQcDGDISL7tyXr8MJtm/ 9piJSAVY2cDRgkyVhJutayOZU43+cUWGP8olcgz6IFVbw/7pF4mhUQACl4uEA0jApb 53B0Ao0KkkMUqVRVDis6VDpCrgjJ3vXMN/mfl58GJnUmfJWBf3mjOc7RrbO04Py+Bh +HPOCUBLzQzXhb6wFAdJ47EoinwvarlwBKzhWof+6LtC+k04sYxrLCsT9RFtW2T6Sm aExS88OHblAhmUBb2N5kCpw7kWqXRzX5G3V0t+PeyAAnfC8BTJTsaTmU8NdmyTeZ9u 4Sq/f9El3M7vzYjN4TNKNIg4= Received: from 99.100.19.101 (99-100-19-101.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net [99.100.19.101]) by holgerdanske.com with ESMTPSA (TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:TLSv1.3:Kx=any:Au=any:Enc=AESGCM(128):Mac=AEAD) (SMTP-AUTH username dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, mechanism PLAIN) for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2023 19:49:01 -0700 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2023 19:49:00 -0700 List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.9.0 Subject: Re: FreeBSD Comparable Technologies Content-Language: en-US To: questions@freebsd.org References: From: David Christensen In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.99 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.991]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[holgerdanske.com,none]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a:november.he.net]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[holgerdanske.com:s=nov-20210719-112354]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[holgerdanske.com:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Pvthz5fW2z3DZk X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On 4/9/23 03:25, louise9841@gmail.com wrote: > Hello, I am new to FreeBSD in terms of using it as a home router/firewall. Im trying to implement the FreeBSD equivalent or similar way of doing things like I did on my Linux Router. Are there are equivalent ways/programs for the following: > > > 1. Reverse Path Filter (Like on Linux). > > 2. Protection against DHCP Starvation attacks. > > 3. DHCP Snooping > > 4. Reply-Only ARP system with features like(automatically adding arps for leases) that keep people from setting a static ip on the network and bypassing the queueing done by pf. > > > P.S.: If there are any ways of doing these options above can you point me to the right documentation as I have tried to research but couldn’t find any thing on these subjects listed above. > > Thank you, > Lou Have you looked at pfSense? https://www.pfsense.org/ David From nobody Mon Apr 10 06:24:41 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PvzV02n7nz44r4V for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2023 06:24:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from louise9841@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pj1-x1036.google.com (mail-pj1-x1036.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1036]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PvzTy2sRSz3wkD for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2023 06:24:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from louise9841@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=FkZb89VC; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of louise9841@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::1036 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=louise9841@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com Received: by mail-pj1-x1036.google.com with SMTP id px4so1101316pjb.3 for ; Sun, 09 Apr 2023 23:24:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1681107892; x=1683699892; h=to:in-reply-to:cc:references:message-id:date:subject:mime-version :from:content-transfer-encoding:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=5IDErvk4drdrmh/TtM1m+I4GMQTWL3pz8Fa0xMPudK4=; b=FkZb89VCwB+9B3m2CIjXHgRVycsKTZXMisjJb8F3cQOMWy4/HYV3s/wDVrLmOR4SAE 51HlqDh6BgbIUNwcO3foTgjUQW6z4rXReWgy07KBKwCAVBhiWPWXA8gpz4/qQ0TtvEMM A9Vtv5umGnd8NbDDzIBXlzq/M3M8BJhM9RQTYdMyBpXD7aw+A3OYEnRzG8bx2DsgfRY/ QHI2tJXEoPhsGFLA5uanfWzhhkmFNEjMVU3JDpyPkD8t2qfk/VEbjZuwLIkFpKv7NrsO NI58OjVsmlaygVF1m0GgbILC4YkldymvySgqILUljkuEtnxU1g6p6Cw1jdcJOvRzJO7D TMTg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1681107892; x=1683699892; h=to:in-reply-to:cc:references:message-id:date:subject:mime-version :from:content-transfer-encoding:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=5IDErvk4drdrmh/TtM1m+I4GMQTWL3pz8Fa0xMPudK4=; b=0n5v1l7dBzn/tvUCRZiFczAANiFFhr2ijoFbZvkPoRM+dmHp428+TWhjeN30PXaD3p Ub1ONGkz6BR0Mum1+6cbUie/ba09KjAYxgEvuGv3z7gRQoVDmYG6am4qnNrJz+UdRBQw eTSSS7847BuLgJbbTyIuGxCFlP6tt0+1vVjCdIxI8xVO9JE+Aj97QH2c1eDR2RpVgScH zZz8dpqMTG+I659ReoZPRSTOBRoYpUOIWDs/Jve22XmIdVPzGbLXw+EeYsonyRDJGvGj uubDNl1ZMUF+OnKtxcq9HA46E6qwkT+0bdoWa/bOG1j6JjJ3atFKnxGfvcFv1XmnYAS6 WQ2w== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9e01JtZRlJaZEnMcX7httaTx9XAuOow02NX7jXGUaS7VPlN5yB2 T5rybn1tFBtgqnee9GdAWrEVNzhWRzyYzWG5 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350bd//rhy0jeAJs5gfRk3IpY0zNLvc2K/BgVLEA1ukLgJv8n6UlbYeGkGKPTY4fAtEUllDqYxQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:5b:b0:233:feb4:895f with SMTP id 27-20020a17090a005b00b00233feb4895fmr8649720pjb.44.1681107892421; Sun, 09 Apr 2023 23:24:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (137-025-169-013.res.spectrum.com. [137.25.169.13]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s13-20020a17090a5d0d00b0023b3d80c76csm6609728pji.4.2023.04.09.23.24.51 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 09 Apr 2023 23:24:51 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: louise9841@gmail.com List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: FreeBSD Comparable Technologies Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2023 23:24:41 -0700 Message-Id: <94EAD718-5BC4-44ED-857B-7C1C1CA31633@gmail.com> References: Cc: dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, possessor.assizer305@aceecat.org In-Reply-To: To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (20D67) X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.50 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.997]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20210112]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_NO_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::1036:from]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PvzTy2sRSz3wkD X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N Thank you guys for answering! I would love to go pfsense but I wanted to do t= his on a bare FreeBSD install for learning experience. Especially learning p= f as I come from the iptables way of doing things and find pf much more read= able, and sane lol. Also it would help me learn a bit about zfs, snapshots, a= nd boot environments as well. That=E2=80=99s the main reason why I go the ro= ute of masochism, to learn as quickly and effectively as possible. Thank you, Lewis > On Apr 9, 2023, at 3:25 AM, louise9841@gmail.com wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFHello, I am new to FreeBSD in terms of using it as a home router/= firewall. Im trying to implement the FreeBSD equivalent or similar way of do= ing things like I did on my Linux Router. Are there are equivalent ways/prog= rams for the following: >=20 >=20 > 1. Reverse Path Filter (Like on Linux). >=20 > 2. Protection against DHCP Starvation attacks. >=20 > 3. DHCP Snooping >=20 > 4. Reply-Only ARP system with features like(automatically adding arps for l= eases) that keep people from setting a static ip on the network and bypassin= g the queueing done by pf. >=20 >=20 > P.S.: If there are any ways of doing these options above can you point me t= o the right documentation as I have tried to research but couldn=E2=80=99t f= ind any thing on these subjects listed above. >=20 > Thank you, > Lou From nobody Mon Apr 10 10:30:18 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Pw4xM23Ktz454Tw for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2023 10:30:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tombyrne223@gmail.com) Received: from mail-oa1-x2a.google.com (mail-oa1-x2a.google.com [IPv6:2001:4860:4864:20::2a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Pw4xL5FF7z4ZsD for ; 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Mon, 10 Apr 2023 03:30:29 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Tom Byrne Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2023 11:30:18 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FreeBSD Comparable Technologies To: louise9841@gmail.com Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.89 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.89)[-0.891]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20210112]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2001:4860:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2001:4860:4864:20::2a:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROMTLD(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2001:4860:4864::/48, country:US]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Pw4xL5FF7z4ZsD X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N Hi Regarding your first question on reverse path filtering, have a look at the 'urpf-failed' keyword which you can use in pf.conf as a source address. From the manual page: urpf-failed Any source address that fails a unicast reverse path forwarding (URPF) check, i.e. packets coming in on an interface other than that which holds the route back to the packet's source address. I think this is possibly what you want, so a 'block quick' rule higher up in your ruleset using that keyword can be useful. I'm not aware of anything freebsd-specific to protect against DHCP starvation, although if your clients and DHCP server are on different subnets with your pf filter in between, you could filter tcp/udp 67/68 to prevent connections to rogue DHCP servers. You could combine this with port security at L2 on your switches, which would prevent attachment of unauthorised hosts on your client subnet, as well as prevent the MAC spoofing which is required for DHCP starvation attacks to work. Not aware of anything offhand to do DHCP snooping on FreeBSD, but I'm sure there's probably something out there. Again though, this might be a feature that's better enabled on your switches instead. Re: the last one, I'm not entirely sure how you're doing your queuing, but the rules could be set to apply to any source address in a subnet or to certain ports/protocols, no matter what the specific address. -- Tom On Sun, 9 Apr 2023 at 11:25, wrote: > > Hello, I am new to FreeBSD in terms of using it as a home router/firewall= . Im trying to implement the FreeBSD equivalent or similar way of doing thi= ngs like I did on my Linux Router. Are there are equivalent ways/programs f= or the following: > > > 1. Reverse Path Filter (Like on Linux). > > 2. Protection against DHCP Starvation attacks. > > 3. DHCP Snooping > > 4. Reply-Only ARP system with features like(automatically adding arps for= leases) that keep people from setting a static ip on the network and bypas= sing the queueing done by pf. > > > P.S.: If there are any ways of doing these options above can you point me= to the right documentation as I have tried to research but couldn=E2=80=99= t find any thing on these subjects listed above. > > Thank you, > Lou From nobody Mon Apr 10 15:14:15 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PwCDy42nJz44My5 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2023 15:14:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from holgerdanske.com (holgerdanske.com [184.105.128.27]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "holgerdanske.com", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PwCDx2j2Wz3lny for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2023 15:14:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=holgerdanske.com header.s=nov-20210719-112354 header.b=3sJ0ukS9; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpchrist@holgerdanske.com designates 184.105.128.27 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dpchrist@holgerdanske.com; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=holgerdanske.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=holgerdanske.com; s=nov-20210719-112354; t=1681139656; bh=jGYP1l4WscJs5Qx1/W2cubNt6BU2Dz3IEdLDRHwEyII=; h=Received:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:User-Agent:Subject:To: References:Content-Language:From:In-Reply-To:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=3sJ0ukS9hj/aaWc2qNbmwJQcgsmknAaKpfIc8imijRAzTssyq4/efC3MPt3QV9iIB ok3ofJs0Z1yJZxiw0fDaQxJlcMOzvkXxkiBL8ilFFng9TAd5BLXCy890b5tdneJPn4 nDsKSthgAFTE4jI0sS9k8toqo14DxbA60TGDCPQVIL9eLnhtH4iZ5Dt0rKd4mKd317 VtUzHf31gSiiOoQbxrVjoFFl9A7XSuV5mJATDQDU72fa7of3UE+7YZIchOPPbiWPfs BF4vwYTrI6Rs77A3PAsFMzNdz9d15k1V32lP3AWltNw39MbbE9YL2dFgtmhDgBL2UE Ezx4rAsXqTBo6rn8ai66F24xV5h8qZ0N5njR32wDn846zBW7Kv1U+wYdq08D1a7u59 ELgGQGObzfMBA3oZJGfoJI8epZGEzNxYo2cIV/4V58QKcy6+3DUKS9M+aR7Q8ekdpX YMy+/M73EgWDgGYY2gIuCSuWk6lqpbnfq8qocct0HK5N8wbyjdpPbUS3Qje5W0pH0p bobeQ5EYfU9Q7cMQ8EUNlSDNhS4cwwvrVr04fJEVuNNqs74qkQmjc1hDc/1UPb1Q3C NBENkqlf2WUxMHkWGOXuycF142u8GFVDBdjs3OjbOYF437jLbM8FIIzeZDfTD1ABMh cAshfe2Vj8y2jVUp3VYwSpBw= Received: from 99.100.19.101 (99-100-19-101.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net [99.100.19.101]) by holgerdanske.com with ESMTPSA (TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:TLSv1.3:Kx=any:Au=any:Enc=AESGCM(128):Mac=AEAD) (SMTP-AUTH username dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, mechanism PLAIN) for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2023 08:14:15 -0700 Message-ID: <7dea5a63-1dd0-3605-1b99-ad2a38d94293@holgerdanske.com> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2023 08:14:15 -0700 List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.9.0 Subject: Re: FreeBSD Comparable Technologies To: questions@freebsd.org References: <94EAD718-5BC4-44ED-857B-7C1C1CA31633@gmail.com> Content-Language: en-US From: David Christensen In-Reply-To: <94EAD718-5BC4-44ED-857B-7C1C1CA31633@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.95 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.95)[-0.949]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[holgerdanske.com,none]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[holgerdanske.com:s=nov-20210719-112354]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[holgerdanske.com:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:184.104.0.0/15, country:US]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PwCDx2j2Wz3lny X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On 4/9/23 23:24, louise9841@gmail.com wrote: >> On Apr 9, 2023, at 3:25 AM, louise9841@gmail.com wrote: >> >> Hello, I am new to FreeBSD in terms of using it as a home router/firewall. Im trying to implement the FreeBSD equivalent or similar way of doing things like I did on my Linux Router. Are there are equivalent ways/programs for the following: >> >> >> 1. Reverse Path Filter (Like on Linux). >> >> 2. Protection against DHCP Starvation attacks. >> >> 3. DHCP Snooping >> >> 4. Reply-Only ARP system with features like(automatically adding arps for leases) that keep people from setting a static ip on the network and bypassing the queueing done by pf. >> >> >> P.S.: If there are any ways of doing these options above can you point me to the right documentation as I have tried to research but couldn’t find any thing on these subjects listed above. >> >> Thank you, >> Lou > Thank you guys for answering! I would love to go pfsense but I wanted to do this on a bare FreeBSD install for learning experience. Especially learning pf as I come from the iptables way of doing things and find pf much more readable, and sane lol. Also it would help me learn a bit about zfs, snapshots, and boot environments as well. That’s the main reason why I go the route of masochism, to learn as quickly and effectively as possible. > > > Thank you, > Lewis To learn how to install and operate a FreeBSD system, "Absolute FreeBSD" 3 e. by Lucas is very practical: https://mwl.io/nonfiction/os#af3e Lucas also has several smaller books that go deeper into specific subjects: https://mwl.io/nonfiction/os#fmzfs https://mwl.io/nonfiction/os#fmaz https://mwl.io/nonfiction/networking#n4sa The WikiPedia page "PF (firewall)" has a list of References and a list of Books. David From nobody Mon Apr 10 18:31:31 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PwHch2bpZz44cYV for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2023 18:31:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4fe0003b01c23.ca063452d82ee5b08179392c0fd13e29@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PwHcg0N7Xz3tBK for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2023 18:31:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4fe0003b01c23.ca063452d82ee5b08179392c0fd13e29@email-od.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=u8cLVqwh; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4fe0003b01c23.ca063452d82ee5b08179392c0fd13e29@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4fe0003b01c23.ca063452d82ee5b08179392c0fd13e29@email-od.com; dmarc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1681151507; x=1683743507; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:to:from:date:x-thread-info:subject:to:from:cc:reply-to; bh=/HDMr+To2Xjf4GQEmzgCrzGpcF0zO0ZYzM3cVkXvJ3w=; b=u8cLVqwhmW0vROLI3tYgbW3j2+bjtU+xJKUJMGWNBKF1stFXdgU5u2MeSPP7562j9q35S4X3m7g57vyLkaoiyLtnQZnQmwDwCYlIwYFaJwEiDpwPovDD2nYShvg9eAJ0rPfc/BZHYq51adM/SveOmJr+ky0PdWfnE0X0kd+Uc4w= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi4xZDRmZTAwMDNiMDFjMjMucXVlc3Rpb25zPWZyZWVic2Qub3Jn Received: from r1.h.in.socketlabs.com (r1.h.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.180.11]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Mon, 10 Apr 2023 14:31:34 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (86-42-20-118-dynamic.b-ras1.bdt.dublin.eircom.net [86.42.20.118]) by r1.h.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Mon, 10 Apr 2023 14:31:33 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.95 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1plwId-000Ox0-Sp for questions@freebsd.org; Mon, 10 Apr 2023 19:31:31 +0100 Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2023 19:31:31 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: seeking recommendation: UPS for Freebsd Message-Id: <20230410193131.663e0d32ea1101f4d2965fe4@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: References: <25649.61743.236383.879770@jerusalem.litteratus.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.33; amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.70 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.998]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4fe0003b01c23.ca063452d82ee5b08179392c0fd13e29@email-od.com]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4fe0003b01c23.ca063452d82ee5b08179392c0fd13e29@email-od.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[email-od.com:dkim] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PwHcg0N7Xz3tBK X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Sat, 8 Apr 2023 23:35:31 -0400 (EDT) Chris Hill wrote: > Do check the batteries first. The lead-acid gel cells used in UPSes > don't last forever, and will need to be replaced now and then. If your > UPS is 10-ish years old or more, I'd suspect the batteries first. I have found it unwise to wait for UPS batteries to fail, in some failure modes they have a tendency to swell and become impossible to remove. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From nobody Mon Apr 10 20:06:38 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PwKkG2tbPz44kvm for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2023 20:06:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic314-14.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com (sonic314-14.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com [74.6.132.124]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PwKkD5hXlz4DNT for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2023 20:06:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=yahoo.com header.s=s2048 header.b="Ypf4IG/8"; 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Mon, 10 Apr 2023 20:06:43 +0000 Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2023 20:06:38 +0000 (UTC) From: Paul Pathiakis To: "questions@freebsd.org" , Robert Huff Message-ID: <331403460.758816.1681157198276@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <25649.61743.236383.879770@jerusalem.litteratus.org> References: <25649.61743.236383.879770@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Subject: Re: seeking recommendation: UPS for Freebsd List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_758815_916986781.1681157198275" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21365 YMailNorrin X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.94 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.94)[-0.942]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[74.6.132.124:from]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com:dkim]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[74.6.132.124:from]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROMTLD(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:26101, ipnet:74.6.128.0/21, country:US]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PwKkD5hXlz4DNT X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N ------=_Part_758815_916986781.1681157198275 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Well, years of getting their quality up, CyberPower has my attention.=C2=A0= =C2=A0 More than anything you don't want a simulated sine wave.=C2=A0 You want a r= eal sine wave. You want direct draw off the batteries at all time.=C2=A0 An AC -> DC switc= h is "Bad".=C2=A0 The 'burst' can cause life-loss or total failure of compo= nents. I've had my server on a 1500A unit for over 5 years and did a recent drain = and recharge.=C2=A0 It came right back to telling me I had 22 minutes of re= serve power.=C2=A0 (Which is how long it told me on discharge and I stopped= it 21 minutes. So, just upgraded my server.=C2=A0 Got the latest unit again for my server/= Desktop and I passed the old UPS onto the son's workstation. Everything continues to work, but I'll take a closer look in 2 years. Paul On Saturday, April 8, 2023 at 03:57:34 PM PDT, Robert Huff wrote: =20 =20 =20 Hello: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I have an older APC UPS (BackUPS RS 1500) that after yea= rs of excellent service _may_ need to be replaced. =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Is there a particular brand - or even model - that folks= would recommend for a medium-to-heavy home office environment?=C2=A0 (This isn't the only UPS; it's just the only one causiong problems right now.) =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Budget is not unlimited, so I'm not looking for anything= fancy; just something that will (with replacement batteries) just do its job for the next 15+ years. =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 And - of course - works with software running on FreeGSD= .=C2=A0 (I use apcupsd, and have seen nut used elsewhere.) =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Respectfully, =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= Robert Huff =20 ------=_Part_758815_916986781.1681157198275 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

Well, = years of getting their quality up, CyberPower has my attention.  =

More than anything you don't want a simulated sine wave.=   You want a real sine wave.

You want direct draw of= f the batteries at all time.  An AC -> DC switch is "Bad".  Th= e 'burst' can cause life-loss or total failure of components.

I've had my server on a 1500A unit for over 5 years and did a recent d= rain and recharge.  It came right back to telling me I had 22 minutes = of reserve power.  (Which is how long it told me on discharge and I st= opped it 21 minutes.

=
So, just upgraded my server.  G= ot the latest unit again for my server/Desktop and I passed the old UPS ont= o the son's workstation.

Everything continues to work, bu= t I'll take a closer look in 2 years.

Paul

=
=20
=20
On Saturday, April 8, 2023 at 03:57:34 PM PDT, Robert H= uff <roberthuff@rcn.com> wrote:



Hello:
=
    I have an older APC UPS (BackUPS = RS 1500) that after years of
excellent service _m= ay_ need to be replaced.
    Is th= ere a particular brand - or even model - that folks would
recommend for a medium-to-heavy home office environment?  (Th= is isn't
the only UPS; it's just the only one cau= siong problems right now.)
    Bud= get is not unlimited, so I'm not looking for anything fancy;
just something that will (with replacement batteries) just do i= ts job
for the next 15+ years.
    And - of course - works with software running o= n FreeGSD.  (I use
apcupsd, and have seen nu= t used elsewhere.)

          &= nbsp; Respectfully,

          =       Robert Huff

<= div dir=3D"ltr">
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Tue, 11 Apr 2023 03:12:02 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------HoX8A1ohXtJRxbaflXIMx3LT" Message-ID: <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2023 17:11:59 +1000 List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.10.0 Subject: Re: Docker Content-Language: en-AU To: Mario Marietto Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> From: Tim Preston In-Reply-To: X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.60 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[messagingengine.com:dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; 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format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The port mentioned in the first article doesn't work any more, if I remember correctly. The second link describes how Linux containers might be run via Linux binary compatibility. It's not Docker exactly, but could be used to run Docker images. But the question I'd ask is "why?". If you need to run Docker images you should probably run them on Linux, to ensure 100% kernel compatibility. After all, Docker is a Linux-only technology. There doesn't seem much point trying to shoehorn it into FreeBSD. On 10/4/23 00:04, Mario Marietto wrote: > It seems that docker now can run on FreeBSD natively,not with the > collaboration of bhyve. What do you think ? > > He says : "Yes, OCI Containers on FreeBSD. What was proposed ages ago > as Docker done right" > > https://productionwithscissors.run/2022/09/04/containerd-linux-on-freebsd/ > > On Tue, Apr 4, 2023 at 4:23 AM Tim Preston wrote: > > It can be done, with a bit of manual tinkering. > > Here is a gist which explains how to run Docker in a CentOS 8 VM > (under bhyve). > > https://gist.github.com/tehpeh/7e5329d295eca9539e6462f36b6ce9c0 > > It's a bit out of date but the general idea would be the same for > CentOS stream, Alpine etc: install Docker, enable the service, > open firewall/networking, nfs mount a local directory. This is > pretty much what Docker for Mac does. > > If you're looking for the Docker hub image repository equivalent > for FreeBSD, take a look at Bastille templates or Potluck > (https://potluck.honeyguide.net/). > > However, and this is only my personal opinion, a pre-baked > container image repository is a bad idea. Apart from the security > issues and recent drama around Docker shutting down free accounts, > container images are often set up with default parameters not > useful in a production environment (or even your specific dev > environment) and are built against a particular kernel version, so > may not run as expected on a different kernel version. > > Again, only my opinion, but you're much better off building your > own, private, images targeting the particular OS/Kernel version > you use in dev/staging/production. In summary, prefer Dockerfiles > over pre-built images. > > I think the conversation we really need to have is not about > copying Docker, but instead how do we consistently create, run, > and scale jails across multiple FreeBSD hosts easily. > > Tim > > > On 2/4/23 02:54, Paul Mather wrote: >> On Mar 29, 2023, at 1:34 AM, John Levine wrote: >> >>> It appears that Tomek CEDRO said: >>>> if there are lots of images for linux docker, and docker is linux only >>>> solution, there is no reason to talk about it on bsd or even offer some >>>> sort of images of bsd for linux right? >>> Docker runs on MacOS with a linux emulation layer. FreeBSD already has >>> some linux emulation so in principle one could do the same thing, but >>> it'd be a lot of work for dubious benefit. >> I disagree it would be of dubious benefit. MacOS is a Tier 1 platform in the Docker ecosystem. Using Docker Desktop on macOS makes using Docker and Kubernetes for development work very easy on that platform, meaning you can stay in the environment you prefer. MacOS is not Linux, but the implementation on there is to use a shim Linux VM via the built-in macOS hypervisor (which, IIRC, is a derivative of bhyve). >> >> It would be great if the same thing could be done on FreeBSD. It would be beneficial if there was a supported docker machine driver for bhyve on FreeBSD. Right now, I believe the road to running Linux containers on FreeBSD is to use the VirtualBox docker machine driver, which is a bit heavyweight (in terms of added dependencies) for my liking. It would be nice if bhyve could be used to run the shim Linux VM. >> >> Other than that, much of the tooling to run Docker and Kubernetes is already in ports. But, those (e.g., in the case of Kubernetes) need to point to non-FreeBSD systems that are running the actual containers, pods, etc. It would be nice to be able to do it all on FreeBSD, at least for development and kicking-the-tyres purposes. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Paul. >> > > > > -- > Mario. --------------HoX8A1ohXtJRxbaflXIMx3LT Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The port mentioned in the first article doesn't work any more, if I remember correctly.

The second link describes how Linux containers might be run via Linux binary compatibility. It's not Docker exactly, but could be used to run Docker images.

But the question I'd ask is "why?". If you need to run Docker images you should probably run them on Linux, to ensure 100% kernel compatibility.

After all, Docker is a Linux-only technology. There doesn't seem much point trying to shoehorn it into FreeBSD.


On 10/4/23 00:04, Mario Marietto wrote:
It seems that docker now can run on FreeBSD natively,not with the collaboration of bhyve. What do you think ?

He says : "Yes, OCI Containers on FreeBSD. What was proposed ages ago as Docker done right"


On Tue, Apr 4, 2023 at 4:23 AM Tim Preston <tim@timpreston.net> wrote:
It can be done, with a bit of manual tinkering.

Here is a gist which explains how to run Docker in a CentOS 8 VM (under bhyve).

https://gist.github.com/tehpeh/7e5329d295eca9539e6462f36b6ce9c0

It's a bit out of date but the general idea would be the same for CentOS stream, Alpine etc: install Docker, enable the service, open firewall/networking, nfs mount a local directory. This is pretty much what Docker for Mac does.

If you're looking for the Docker hub image repository equivalent for FreeBSD, take a look at Bastille templates or Potluck (https://potluck.honeyguide.net/).

However, and this is only my personal opinion, a pre-baked container image repository is a bad idea. Apart from the security issues and recent drama around Docker shutting down free accounts, container images are often set up with default parameters not useful in a production environment (or even your specific dev environment) and are built against a particular kernel version, so may not run as expected on a different kernel version.

Again, only my opinion, but you're much better off building your own, private, images targeting the particular OS/Kernel version you use in dev/staging/production. In summary, prefer Dockerfiles over pre-built images.

I think the conversation we really need to have is not about copying Docker, but instead how do we consistently create, run, and scale jails across multiple FreeBSD hosts easily.

Tim


On 2/4/23 02:54, Paul Mather wrote:
On Mar 29, 2023, at 1:34 AM, John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:


It appears that Tomek CEDRO <tomek@cedro.info> said:

if there are lots of images for linux docker, and docker is linux only
solution, there is no reason to talk about it on bsd or even offer some
sort of images of bsd for linux right?

Docker runs on MacOS with a linux emulation layer.  FreeBSD already has
some linux emulation so in principle one could do the same thing, but
it'd be a lot of work for dubious benefit.

I disagree it would be of dubious benefit.  MacOS is a Tier 1 platform in the Docker ecosystem.  Using Docker Desktop on macOS makes using Docker and Kubernetes for development work very easy on that platform, meaning you can stay in the environment you prefer.  MacOS is not Linux, but the implementation on there is to use a shim Linux VM via the built-in macOS hypervisor (which, IIRC, is a derivative of bhyve).

It would be great if the same thing could be done on FreeBSD.  It would be beneficial if there was a supported docker machine driver for bhyve on FreeBSD.  Right now, I believe the road to running Linux containers on FreeBSD is to use the VirtualBox docker machine driver, which is a bit heavyweight (in terms of added dependencies) for my liking.  It would be nice if bhyve could be used to run the shim Linux VM.

Other than that, much of the tooling to run Docker and Kubernetes is already in ports.  But, those (e.g., in the case of Kubernetes) need to point to non-FreeBSD systems that are running the actual containers, pods, etc.  It would be nice to be able to do it all on FreeBSD, at least for development and kicking-the-tyres purposes.

Cheers,

Paul.



--
Mario.

--------------HoX8A1ohXtJRxbaflXIMx3LT-- From nobody Tue Apr 11 09:44:24 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PwgtR0PVrz44XXx for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 09:45:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yw1-x112f.google.com (mail-yw1-x112f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::112f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PwgtQ6nzcz3Bnv for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 09:45:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-yw1-x112f.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-54f64b29207so39552347b3.8 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 02:45:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1681206301; x=1683798301; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=+ZpzvDoJ/Gs7PaXkGDTzKrgOnaU+sSDgMLU4eOG2Gqk=; b=h/Em7TZ9H/qeIb2OUB306jPFCmtv+SuOsNIX0MD6k8TTHJpppD4ezKaqH6yj9fQTfK qOEHb3zR5pd+muQn3LGAijvKffcYqJNCIszHDLxfCv5N0APNnE4uMv5K4UUxTHCfCYjj wbnusD1kEBNoltTBBvDxyUrUHf7V8VBpRSiDTHKmRiWFjwhFswfNzXR+VlBnkSInlL9i TKQhALK0AEViqMs/5RlgpGVWZ3yyQSKO3FJxXRl7wadnnSoO7n5UCiKI2tvNGolmiIbC bgJwHHe8jqM0ROGtLUGMAiN7b7PcjM8+mHq8IH+07EHENnl4g1/BwBslsQtKoTba8ZRl SBpA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1681206301; x=1683798301; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=+ZpzvDoJ/Gs7PaXkGDTzKrgOnaU+sSDgMLU4eOG2Gqk=; b=zdtVIMYpCRMXP7Ckf4pzs8QE+AW9Dcw/xqVHM3gEx9J3s5WJLwJ5x6XXvG2tOJmFDQ BWq2g09sKAMdyVHMFP0VyyPknVf+Jfj2qSiqQC7HA5OK3P+/pBs+smTZgA9xNiaVrMLg Q04RwXFI4QSKZVr8iwBLs/LYUg+bMaPh6sDnpIAljNfTYL/mx0iYeFiQKNrspIVmYMh3 LAeRjZJb1H/N6/AHa1ASqQIP1nL3C8zuIqBCnaLLqCB9ZoFIu96+Jo3EC/CzNJcCzvSg 1uDjBD35ScFW1lgmUB3jDWCWG6cfbuJD73DDU98dQF/TDLdI3iGEMbdRJirLf5DX18I+ tVew== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9ePUDNVwXISTT8DTxJBSC1KtiMG35dyq8MfUwqqPhi+JarWq2gg efaJYOup0QLy9F8ptnWxDw1CsA1r9991JHzPlfNxaERgl+pzbg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350aR9+i7t9nM4wPoMpgELkMCIlHGUNBqvQdp10nE0nRKj0+SXNWA+clPnynSleeUp9TzBkUBB/gZfVQLkPuBaTk= X-Received: by 2002:a81:b719:0:b0:540:e744:13ae with SMTP id v25-20020a81b719000000b00540e74413aemr1354072ywh.3.1681206301111; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 02:45:01 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> In-Reply-To: <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> From: Mario Marietto Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2023 11:44:24 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Docker To: Tim Preston Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005f3a0405f90c5819" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PwgtQ6nzcz3Bnv X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --0000000000005f3a0405f90c5819 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tim,you are wasting your time. It seems that all of these (good) FreeBSD developers don't want you to use Linux technologies if you have chosen FreeBSD as the main OS. That's not good and it sounds like a discriminatory attitude. I really don't understand why I should be forced to use only one OS or a limited set of tools. I (and it's not only me) want to use as many tools as possible within one OS only. I like FreeBSD for a lot of reasons,but it is also true that there are a lot of good docker images on the internet that can make my life easier. So,why can't I use them on FreeBSD ? Do you want to keep alive the war between Windows and Linux in the '90 / 2000 ? Probably we should clarify what's the kind of user that can make this kind of argumentation. Well,me,I'm a FreeBSD home user. My position is not comparable with the position of the developers that dislike that the linux technologies are integrated at a various level in the FreeBSD world. We,home users,want this. Because we "love" Linux,FreeBSD,and sometimes even NetBSD,OpenBSD,etc. We want everything. It seems that our mindset is more open than the developers who have chosen FreeBSD for their job. On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 9:12=E2=80=AFAM Tim Preston wr= ote: > The port mentioned in the first article doesn't work any more, if I > remember correctly. > > The second link describes how Linux containers might be run via Linux > binary compatibility. It's not Docker exactly, but could be used to run > Docker images. > > But the question I'd ask is "why?". If you need to run Docker images you > should probably run them on Linux, to ensure 100% kernel compatibility. > > After all, Docker is a Linux-only technology. There doesn't seem much > point trying to shoehorn it into FreeBSD. > > > On 10/4/23 00:04, Mario Marietto wrote: > > It seems that docker now can run on FreeBSD natively,not with the > collaboration of bhyve. What do you think ? > > He says : "Yes, OCI Containers on FreeBSD. What was proposed ages ago as = Docker > done right" > https://productionwithscissors.run/2022/09/04/containerd-linux-on-freebsd= / > > On Tue, Apr 4, 2023 at 4:23=E2=80=AFAM Tim Preston w= rote: > >> It can be done, with a bit of manual tinkering. >> >> Here is a gist which explains how to run Docker in a CentOS 8 VM (under >> bhyve). >> >> https://gist.github.com/tehpeh/7e5329d295eca9539e6462f36b6ce9c0 >> >> It's a bit out of date but the general idea would be the same for CentOS >> stream, Alpine etc: install Docker, enable the service, open >> firewall/networking, nfs mount a local directory. This is pretty much wh= at >> Docker for Mac does. >> >> If you're looking for the Docker hub image repository equivalent for >> FreeBSD, take a look at Bastille templates or Potluck ( >> https://potluck.honeyguide.net/). >> >> However, and this is only my personal opinion, a pre-baked container >> image repository is a bad idea. Apart from the security issues and recen= t >> drama around Docker shutting down free accounts, container images are of= ten >> set up with default parameters not useful in a production environment (o= r >> even your specific dev environment) and are built against a particular >> kernel version, so may not run as expected on a different kernel version= . >> >> Again, only my opinion, but you're much better off building your own, >> private, images targeting the particular OS/Kernel version you use in >> dev/staging/production. In summary, prefer Dockerfiles over pre-built >> images. >> >> I think the conversation we really need to have is not about copying >> Docker, but instead how do we consistently create, run, and scale jails >> across multiple FreeBSD hosts easily. >> >> Tim >> >> >> On 2/4/23 02:54, Paul Mather wrote: >> >> On Mar 29, 2023, at 1:34 AM, John Levine wrote: >> >> >> It appears that Tomek CEDRO said: >> >> if there are lots of images for linux docker, and docker is linux only >> solution, there is no reason to talk about it on bsd or even offer some >> sort of images of bsd for linux right? >> >> Docker runs on MacOS with a linux emulation layer. FreeBSD already has >> some linux emulation so in principle one could do the same thing, but >> it'd be a lot of work for dubious benefit. >> >> I disagree it would be of dubious benefit. MacOS is a Tier 1 platform i= n the Docker ecosystem. Using Docker Desktop on macOS makes using Docker a= nd Kubernetes for development work very easy on that platform, meaning you = can stay in the environment you prefer. MacOS is not Linux, but the implem= entation on there is to use a shim Linux VM via the built-in macOS hypervis= or (which, IIRC, is a derivative of bhyve). >> >> It would be great if the same thing could be done on FreeBSD. It would = be beneficial if there was a supported docker machine driver for bhyve on F= reeBSD. Right now, I believe the road to running Linux containers on FreeB= SD is to use the VirtualBox docker machine driver, which is a bit heavyweig= ht (in terms of added dependencies) for my liking. It would be nice if bhy= ve could be used to run the shim Linux VM. >> >> Other than that, much of the tooling to run Docker and Kubernetes is alr= eady in ports. But, those (e.g., in the case of Kubernetes) need to point = to non-FreeBSD systems that are running the actual containers, pods, etc. = It would be nice to be able to do it all on FreeBSD, at least for developme= nt and kicking-the-tyres purposes. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Paul. >> >> >> >> > > -- > Mario. > > > --=20 Mario. --0000000000005f3a0405f90c5819 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Tim,you are wasting your time. It seems that = all of these (good) FreeBSD developers don't want you to use Linux tech= nologies if you have chosen FreeBSD as the main OS. That's not good and= it sounds like a discriminatory attitude. =C2=A0

I really don't understand why I should be forced to use only one OS or a= =20 limited set of tools. I (and it's not only me) want to use as many tool= s=20 as possible within one OS only. I like FreeBSD for a lot of reasons,but=20 it is also true that there are a lot of good docker images on the internet= =20 that can make my life easier. So,why can't I use them on FreeBSD ? Do= =20 you want to keep alive the war between Windows and=20 Linux in the '90 / 2000 ?=C2=A0

Probably we should clarify what&#= 39;s the kind of user that can make this kind of argumentation. Well,me,I&#= 39;m a FreeBSD home user.=C2=A0 My position is not comparable with the posi= tion of the developers that dislike that the linux technologies are integra= ted at a various level in the FreeBSD world. We,home users,want this. Becau= se we "love" Linux,FreeBSD,and sometimes even NetBSD,OpenBSD,etc.= We want everything. It seems that our mindset is more open than the develo= pers who have chosen FreeBSD for their job.


<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">
On Tue, Apr= 11, 2023 at 9:12=E2=80=AFAM Tim Preston <tim@timpreston.net> wrote:
=20 =20 =20
The port mentioned in the first article doesn't work any more, if I remember correctly.

The second link describes how Linux containers might be run via Linux binary compatibility. It's not Docker exactly, but could be used to run Docker images.

But the question I'd ask is "why?". If you need to run Do= cker images you should probably run them on Linux, to ensure 100% kernel compatibility.

After all, Docker is a Linux-only technology. There doesn't seem much point trying to shoehorn it into FreeBSD.


On 10/4/23 00:04, Mario Marietto wrote:
=20
It seems that docker now can run on FreeBSD natively,not with the collaboration of bhyve. What do you think ?

He says : "Yes, OCI Containers on FreeBSD. What was proposed ages ago as Docker done right"


On Tue, Apr 4, 2023 at 4:23= =E2=80=AFAM Tim Preston <tim@timpreston.net> wrote:
It can be done, with a bit of manual tinkering.

Here is a gist which explains how to run Docker in a CentOS 8 VM (under bhyve).

https://gist.github.com/tehpeh/7e5329d295eca= 9539e6462f36b6ce9c0

It's a bit out of date but the general idea would be the same for CentOS stream, Alpine etc: install Docker, enable the service, open firewall/networking, nfs mount a local directory. This is pretty much what Docker for Mac does.

If you're looking for the Docker hub image repository equivalent for FreeBSD, take a look at Bastille templates or Potluck (https://potluck.honeyguide.net/).

However, and this is only my personal opinion, a pre-baked container image repository is a bad idea. Apart from the security issues and recent drama around Docker shutting down free accounts, container images are often set up with default parameters not useful in a production environment (or even your specific dev environment) and are built against a particular kernel version, so may not run as expected on a different kernel version.

Again, only my opinion, but you're much better off building your own, private, images targeting the particular OS/Kernel version you use in dev/staging/production. In summary, prefer Dockerfiles over pre-built images.

I think the conversation we really need to have is not about copying Docker, but instead how do we consistently create, run, and scale jails across multiple FreeBSD hosts easily.

Tim


On 2/4/23 02:54, Paul Mather wrote:
On Mar 29, 2023, at 1:34 AM, John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:


It appears that Tomek CEDRO <tomek@cedro.info> said:

if there are lots of images for linux docker, and do=
cker is linux only
solution, there is no reason to talk about it on bsd or even offer some
sort of images of bsd for linux right?

Docker runs on MacOS with a linux emulation layer.  Fr=
eeBSD already has
some linux emulation so in principle one could do the same thing, but
it'd be a lot of work for dubious benefit.

I disagree it would be of dubious benefit.  MacOS is a T=
ier 1 platform in the Docker ecosystem.  Using Docker Desktop on macOS make=
s using Docker and Kubernetes for development work very easy on that platfo=
rm, meaning you can stay in the environment you prefer.  MacOS is not Linux=
, but the implementation on there is to use a shim Linux VM via the built-i=
n macOS hypervisor (which, IIRC, is a derivative of bhyve).

It would be great if the same thing could be done on FreeBSD.  It would be =
beneficial if there was a supported docker machine driver for bhyve on Free=
BSD.  Right now, I believe the road to running Linux containers on FreeBSD =
is to use the VirtualBox docker machine driver, which is a bit heavyweight =
(in terms of added dependencies) for my liking.  It would be nice if bhyve =
could be used to run the shim Linux VM.

Other than that, much of the tooling to run Docker and Kubernetes is alread=
y in ports.  But, those (e.g., in the case of Kubernetes) need to point to =
non-FreeBSD systems that are running the actual containers, pods, etc.  It =
would be nice to be able to do it all on FreeBSD, at least for development =
and kicking-the-tyres purposes.

Cheers,

Paul.



--
Mario.



--
Mario.
--0000000000005f3a0405f90c5819-- From nobody Tue Apr 11 10:17:22 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PwhcF0FGMz44Zxd for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 10:17:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dch@skunkwerks.at) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PwhcD514bz4H8k for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 10:17:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dch@skunkwerks.at) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CD565C011D; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 06:17:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap44 ([10.202.2.94]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 11 Apr 2023 06:17:47 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=skunkwerks.at; h=cc:cc:content-type:content-type:date:date:from:from :in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to; s=fm1; t=1681208267; x= 1681294667; bh=gp0AEdO2rjh/zRzEVV0BQ7hU3uY7bcAz2AV26p+OSJQ=; b=f WtSbcks2MHa5W6+ncgdpDEpY8eAHxTJvQu0COW8pHF8FM4tq7+5vyNVXb8eHdvq0 l13YMjov72SD5JaVuYYLkQbiKV9aG9Y8MddZYblEvZbQ7k2XjGqkvvmPmTBffRQg pY3vwUljJjNIgSDEP3B0OUiDezKRCF1BhODn7wrCJuF28VO//nASe+1e8vTOifXL 2cSsYfSatL1K8bTjI0Ms6BzBqPVapC/nDU/3nOUayxBfKHtwo+ldu35ARb9aVm4M k+LZe0m627pNLAw13ofQFHSxIldx0k2qz8mCreUU3H21QDQMHjA3DQ0mh9bkMcmL CoaTQGhEWI/cOgAQi4XQA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-type:content-type:date:date :feedback-id:feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:sender:subject :subject:to:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; t=1681208267; x=1681294667; bh=gp0AEdO2rjh/z RzEVV0BQ7hU3uY7bcAz2AV26p+OSJQ=; b=Bfb73hJaVuFeotuGBRkEXkNCm3H+r XdGqGmr+Wyw6gr31brzbu01k2vvkrIrpslRLSN53Yz2p72hUJ3qP3BZcYPdqJe8q CKOMETdIcZNmYo488VUp2eCjuKF48YcBzGZVuw3lfWkSbLreRMYaYkxewWYlo+V0 ID1akoObYfszI1u2cR4KNDDxkqjdf/acxjAf60yKEXp/9D4hkbrqGZN8YARxIpSc YnwyRrMEN0bthqc8tVXvW8rC8uIT4LQdsJzLLXjVZlY/MW1PaIqfUb1RIiZk8D75 QTfsY8DFfUQwjG3Knk4YCo9ftu4E0jn9OTthwkip3S+rqYaFHICGrDexQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvhedrvdekgedgvdeiucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvfevufgtsehttdertderredtnecuhfhrohhmpedfffgr vhgvucevohhtthhlvghhuhgsvghrfdcuoegutghhsehskhhunhhkfigvrhhkshdrrghtqe enucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpefgvdfgkeffueeiheduudfffeehfeefveekiefhgedtudeg leeuueejfedtjeegueenucffohhmrghinhepohhpvghntghonhhtrghinhgvrhhsrdhorh hgpdhgihhthhhusgdrtghomhdpmhgvughiuhhmrdgtohhmnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihii vgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepuggthhesshhkuhhnkhifvghrkhhsrd grth X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: ic0e84090:Fastmail Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id D78C836A0073; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 06:17:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.9.0-alpha0-334-g8c072af647-fm-20230330.001-g8c072af6 List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2023 10:17:22 +0000 From: "Dave Cottlehuber" To: "Mario Marietto" Cc: freebsd-questions , "Tim Preston" Subject: Re: Docker Content-Type: text/plain X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PwhcD514bz4H8k X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:19151, ipnet:66.111.4.0/24, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Tue, 11 Apr 2023, at 09:44, Mario Marietto wrote: > Tim,you are wasting your time. It seems that all of these (good) > FreeBSD developers don't want you to use Linux technologies if you have > chosen FreeBSD as the main OS. That's not good and it sounds like a > discriminatory attitude. I think you're mis-representing the position of a lot of people here; please don't do that. The fast-moving Docker.com tech has been moving towards a standards-based "Open Container" https://opencontainers.org/ definition, and many people have worked across the standard, the implementation, kernel, & tooling, now in ports on FreeBSD, to make this possible. Just a few examples: - https://github.com/samuelkarp/runj/ - https://github.com/dfr/ocijail/ - https://medium.com/@dfr/oci-containers-for-freebsd-512a6df2bc85 It would be great to get your feedback on one of these and see what you tried, and where it breaks with your expectations. While it may be possible to run many linux containers with this tooling, systemd and other linux-specific things could be present in any container you pull, from systemd, to filesystem requirements, and expecting all of these to work seamlessly is unrealistic. If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker experience, then, yes, use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't think there are many FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large pragmatic people. It's ok to use different tools in different situations. A+ Dave From nobody Tue Apr 11 10:26:10 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Pwhpc0D5Yz44blX for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 10:26:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yb1-xb32.google.com (mail-yb1-xb32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b32]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Pwhpb3vTJz4YFx for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 10:26:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-yb1-xb32.google.com with SMTP id h198so14008905ybg.12 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 03:26:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1681208807; x=1683800807; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Ew6ZrGs/HeEI40PgtJV54VXLUfb3N1uugwxwDoiIyU8=; b=pQIfalv4xmsOpjq5VRRu/S8rKNV9lWfdDlwf6NQtw71w+gASHylT1a/QLYFA2/l3da gmqux58OegPYaCWhlHJHUxz0oWnRLsqoDavgzKGrSpvCc4s1HgcdD1TqfccgzXYmHpEH 9eoewkpgHYxALdbVvYSdwnn9hvtkyzCCzrwkybWIX7lXuUKBl8K76LtbqczI4wBe6GsS dQTxcK0JiLSIUAOIHaOo/WzKoFbFKAX0ia0uwDGRhUqbC08RMDqmrbU6A9spww4OPzCf eSzkS+h1ja2QecZgaIUCbroiQXRS/EvL8lvHeQkftRSfLljJS/xIyhoglRJ+Xmo8/IQN xJ+w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1681208807; x=1683800807; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=Ew6ZrGs/HeEI40PgtJV54VXLUfb3N1uugwxwDoiIyU8=; b=UnOxPkOzg1ui1sLh8C66i2JHaIO/iIvL+BOkwueA1EcU41l3C/wRoabsrpDbR3HJ/X 4P7JW0cdiMkslA4+VKbLkLKO/PmEw3QeQmu32yfwasRsKgaEM8RYuSLucm4WItaGCxRu IqD4+BsQl2M5Dkwtko+M2kACR3MOhOF2MELDgQKDolOqAxlqvJQCZ3I/WoX/6aqfIzzG ZBm/BrWI9wBi4bbgxTIvlbvxpGjKxFUQKdFyzRH3HRNPn5+I1gLD1ri9x2HvuvC3bVqf 29nl4wq9+xihvMNJyX9npiuGKb1rIAwspQW3Mj72KvD6ygOfZgMBY1CeZjuB4osfJUpo FIxg== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9dm2dQjSBtlEsw0cik0MOwjPyZAPIkeJO3W8f/jr8uV1/9hnD8/ e4k/9XW6ib0Lu0N/LOG4mcWb/f2As1le/qFKzAUk43Pgipjvw11l X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350a2k4supP7UKWMwySjE1hPoXymOzaz0mn4L2zdgJ7A8JS9mudch4LE9T3rDBxIr8Adoo/zojLJc/UsVYJfRM/c= X-Received: by 2002:a25:d084:0:b0:b8b:edb1:95f with SMTP id h126-20020a25d084000000b00b8bedb1095fmr5134963ybg.10.1681208806557; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 03:26:46 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> From: Mario Marietto Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2023 12:26:10 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Docker To: Dave Cottlehuber Cc: freebsd-questions , Tim Preston Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b54d9405f90ced05" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Pwhpb3vTJz4YFx X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --000000000000b54d9405f90ced05 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For sure there are users / developers that are in the middle,like it happens in the political area. I like this kind of person. I'm one of those people. My criticism is against those users and developers that show an exaggerated "love" and fidelity towards a system, whether by ideology, whether by habit, or by commercial reasons. I'm a frequent visitor to various freebsd forums and I often read opinions radicalized on linux technologies that should not enter the freebsd world, simply because in Freebsd there are already excellent tools that do their job well. Yes,they work well,but why not add more and different tools that which would allow the creation of bridges between different operating systems ? On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:17=E2=80=AFPM Dave Cottlehuber wrote: > On Tue, 11 Apr 2023, at 09:44, Mario Marietto wrote: > > Tim,you are wasting your time. It seems that all of these (good) > > FreeBSD developers don't want you to use Linux technologies if you have > > chosen FreeBSD as the main OS. That's not good and it sounds like a > > discriminatory attitude. > > I think you're mis-representing the position of a lot of people here; > please don't do that. > > The fast-moving Docker.com tech has been moving towards a standards-based > "Open Container" https://opencontainers.org/ definition, and many people > have worked across the standard, the implementation, kernel, & tooling, > now in ports on FreeBSD, to make this possible. Just a few examples: > > - https://github.com/samuelkarp/runj/ > - https://github.com/dfr/ocijail/ > - https://medium.com/@dfr/oci-containers-for-freebsd-512a6df2bc85 > > It would be great to get your feedback on one of these and see what you > tried, and where it breaks with your expectations. > > While it may be possible to run many linux containers with this tooling, > systemd and other linux-specific things could be present in any container > you pull, from systemd, to filesystem requirements, and expecting all > of these to work seamlessly is unrealistic. > > If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker experience, then, yes, > use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't think there are many > FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large pragmatic people. > It's ok to use different tools in different situations. > > A+ > Dave > --=20 Mario. --000000000000b54d9405f90ced05 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
For sure there are users / developers that are in the midd= le,like it happens in the political area. I like this kind of person. I'= ;m one of those people. My criticism is against those users and developers = that show an exaggerated "lov= e" and fidelity towards a system, whether by ideology, whether by habi= t, or by commercial reasons. I'm a frequent visitor to various freebsd forums and I often read opi= nions radicalized on linux = technologies that should not enter the freebsd world, simply because in Fre= ebsd there are already excellent tools that do their job well. Yes,they wor= k well,but why not add more and different tools that which would allow the creation of bridges between= different operating systems ?

On Tue, Apr 11, 2= 023 at 12:17=E2=80=AFPM Dave Cottlehuber <dch@skunkwerks.at> wrote:
On Tue, 11 Apr 2023, at 09:44, Mario Marietto wrote= :
> Tim,you are wasting your time. It seems that all of these (good)
> FreeBSD developers don't want you to use Linux technologies if you= have
> chosen FreeBSD as the main OS. That's not good and it sounds like = a
> discriminatory attitude.=C2=A0 =C2=A0

I think you're mis-representing the position of a lot of people here; please don't do that.

The fast-moving Docker.com tech has been moving towards a standards-based "Open Container" https://opencontainers.org/ definition, an= d many people
have worked across the standard, the implementation, kernel, & tooling,=
now in ports on FreeBSD, to make this possible. Just a few examples:

- https://github.com/samuelkarp/runj/
- https://github.com/dfr/ocijail/
- https://medium.com/@dfr/oci-contain= ers-for-freebsd-512a6df2bc85

It would be great to get your feedback on one of these and see what you
tried, and where it breaks with your expectations.

While it may be possible to run many linux containers with this tooling, systemd and other linux-specific things could be present in any container you pull, from systemd, to filesystem requirements, and expecting all
of these to work seamlessly is unrealistic.

If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker experience, then, yes,
use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't think there are many FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large pragmatic people.
It's ok to use different tools in different situations.

A+
Dave


--
Mario.
--000000000000b54d9405f90ced05-- From nobody Tue Apr 11 10:45:11 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PwjDZ2w56z44d2S for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 10:45:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yb1-xb35.google.com (mail-yb1-xb35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b35]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PwjDX6Nkqz3tv6 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 10:45:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=dmigX3fz; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of marietto2008@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::b35 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=marietto2008@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com Received: by mail-yb1-xb35.google.com with SMTP id y186so7612076yby.13 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 03:45:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1681209947; x=1683801947; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=KkMZ85WaToFuwqhyr+aQgAJ9y5iZ4txG+AVB0aheFZk=; b=dmigX3fz6yE63TFMPK8bx4ZlV8HvjbHDgcxQ/gj6x3WIROu5N7NnK41fZPLsMyzvDE maRcqNYq6AyodR65HDTkjd0SwToL91J9+tGrDArUnOQHuWcxUrNqf4gMM1KiK9qjhqI+ QRZFW8dcWo60LggLmQhVrjX8QpCWDG677DCIcf+EEgjNmDJMJJ/an01KB3Ra3IWt7Xva Muc7B9fj/fQsSnZLO/ucajHRHRKnO1hh2UguIKglIuUHDjYfh2lvb8WVRvTcEaeHQ7FE oqd8ZYMAS0xUmdM7G8aIVnegd7frAj4sieWRVdx3tQnO1mjWUp8SDHbBE+OBzCjgXqHM 7Pgg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1681209947; x=1683801947; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=KkMZ85WaToFuwqhyr+aQgAJ9y5iZ4txG+AVB0aheFZk=; b=uJhY+yxjHVG+yLh6VbLAK17oL17z/s15nIj4WXUoRnurqPGBF4FGpFB3rDC6U6ThYJ cZaEMaR0Xs3/Tjb7ybJKJzJGlGA7135EBwhfWaN5Cvwha219R0prEIPm75b6NK8uY93z ThzG4+MpuftzdMK/SHXvkKQuOHCIjfEJ+8I2nNuywdxaddoTn4As95fIEqyh0C700pVP 4PO1IGXGVRnaUm6newXogoermcUQ2swndf00ZG/y60cis3XKcG9BxFSYjCVudzQ1f6G1 HjCaeKrXUZySGy5mj62g2a7rYeLYWV05wGPbwQFIODCSmQbN9HCuoGjVS9+sKBaXaJV8 Np9w== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9fZd/KuFxb+gBUO/M79sI49MVjLT4xxVA21ugvRSobMVeO1bZ0K Hx1lgG7R/YIPeGFcL3fLsQJuY59ljPIZK8oEBUY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350aT4D4xrBo+EFGJ2UKt28ULVck68jUZ0HyKvtKCj1y90VTEdc/X4EjixfucdYIgzlLnevQUQVtUm1ds2VaW5pg= X-Received: by 2002:a25:73ca:0:b0:b8e:dadc:a081 with SMTP id o193-20020a2573ca000000b00b8edadca081mr5653010ybc.5.1681209947477; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 03:45:47 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Mario Marietto Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2023 12:45:11 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Docker To: Dave Cottlehuber Cc: freebsd-questions , Tim Preston Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b65cd805f90d310e" X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.998]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20210112]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::b35:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROMTLD(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PwjDX6Nkqz3tv6 X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --000000000000b65cd805f90d310e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ---> If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker experience, then, yes,use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't think there are many FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large pragmatic people. It's ok to use different tools in different situations. But home users usually are poor people. To have a good computer means often to be lucky. I mainly use FreeBSD because I feel good when I use many of its tools. But it often happens that I also need to be able to have some different tool that I like because I tried it in a different system and I liked it. Docker is one of those tools. Users love it,even today,but it is becoming old. For sure there are good technical reasons behind this "love". The development of Docker on FreeBSD stopped a lot of years ago. And the reasons for that stop is not only caused by technical reasons,in my opinion,but,as I said,even by a form of discrimination. The storic FreeBSD users have been trained using its own tools and they won't change. They don't want to spend money to develop a new/old tool that will enrich the tools park ? This mindset is not focused on the satisfaction of those users that could migrate or that want to try FreeBSD,after having used another OS. It is some kind of sectarian mentality. Yes I can run a VM running Linux,but this will waste resources on the machine. Why should I run a whole VM if I need only to run a tool ? If the tool is not widely used,ok,developing it is not worth it. But we are talking of widely used tools here and Docker is one of those tools. On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:26=E2=80=AFPM Mario Marietto wrote: > For sure there are users / developers that are in the middle,like it > happens in the political area. I like this kind of person. I'm one of tho= se > people. My criticism is against those users and developers that show an > exaggerated "love" and fidelity towards a system, whether by ideology, > whether by habit, or by commercial reasons. I'm a frequent visitor to > various freebsd forums and I often read opinions radicalized on linux > technologies that should not enter the freebsd world, simply because in > Freebsd there are already excellent tools that do their job well. Yes,the= y > work well,but why not add more and different tools that which would allow > the creation of bridges between different operating systems ? > > On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:17=E2=80=AFPM Dave Cottlehuber > wrote: > >> On Tue, 11 Apr 2023, at 09:44, Mario Marietto wrote: >> > Tim,you are wasting your time. It seems that all of these (good) >> > FreeBSD developers don't want you to use Linux technologies if you hav= e >> > chosen FreeBSD as the main OS. That's not good and it sounds like a >> > discriminatory attitude. >> >> I think you're mis-representing the position of a lot of people here; >> please don't do that. >> >> The fast-moving Docker.com tech has been moving towards a standards-base= d >> "Open Container" https://opencontainers.org/ definition, and many people >> have worked across the standard, the implementation, kernel, & tooling, >> now in ports on FreeBSD, to make this possible. Just a few examples: >> >> - https://github.com/samuelkarp/runj/ >> - https://github.com/dfr/ocijail/ >> - https://medium.com/@dfr/oci-containers-for-freebsd-512a6df2bc85 >> >> It would be great to get your feedback on one of these and see what you >> tried, and where it breaks with your expectations. >> >> While it may be possible to run many linux containers with this tooling, >> systemd and other linux-specific things could be present in any containe= r >> you pull, from systemd, to filesystem requirements, and expecting all >> of these to work seamlessly is unrealistic. >> >> If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker experience, then, yes, >> use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't think there are many >> FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large pragmatic people. >> It's ok to use different tools in different situations. >> >> A+ >> Dave >> > > > -- > Mario. > --=20 Mario. --000000000000b65cd805f90d310e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
---> If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker exper= ience, then, yes,use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't think = there are many
FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large pragmatic people. It&= #39;s ok to use different tools in different situations.

But home users usually are poor people. To have a good computer mean= s often to be lucky. I mainly use FreeBSD because I feel good when I use ma= ny of its tools. But it often happens that I also need to be able to have s= ome different tool that I like because I tried it in a different system and= I liked it. Docker is one of those tools. Users love it,even today,but it = is becoming old. For sure there are good technical reasons behind this &quo= t;love". The development of Docker on FreeBSD stopped a lot of years a= go. And the reasons for that stop is not only caused by technical reasons,i= n my opinion,but,as I said,even by a form of discrimination. The storic Fre= eBSD users have been trained using its own tools and they won't change.= They don't want to spend money to develop a new/old tool that will enrich the tools park ? This mindset = is not focused on the satisfaction of those users that could migrate or tha= t want to try FreeBSD,after having used another OS. It is some kind of sectarian mentality. Yes I can = run a VM running Linux,but this will waste resources on the machine. Why sh= ould I run a whole VM if I need only to run a tool ? If the tool is not wid= ely used,ok,developing it i= s not worth it. But we are talking of widely used tools here and Docker is = one of those tools. =

On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:26=E2=80=AFPM Mario M= arietto <marietto2008@gmail.co= m> wrote:
For sure there are users / developers that are in the mid= dle,like it happens in the political area. I like this kind of person. I= 9;m one of those people. My criticism is against those users and developers= that show an exaggerated "love" and fidelity t= owards a system, whether by ideology, whether by habit, or by commercial re= asons. I'm a frequent visitor to various freeb= sd forums and I often read opinions radicalized on= linux technologies that should not enter the freebsd world, simply because= in Freebsd there are already excellent tools that do their job well. Yes,t= hey work well,but why not add more and different tools that which would allow the creation of bridges between different opera= ting systems ?
On T= ue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:17=E2=80=AFPM Dave Cottlehuber <dch@skunkwerks.at> wrote:
<= /div>
On Tue, 11 Apr 2023,= at 09:44, Mario Marietto wrote:
> Tim,you are wasting your time. It seems that all of these (good)
> FreeBSD developers don't want you to use Linux technologies if you= have
> chosen FreeBSD as the main OS. That's not good and it sounds like = a
> discriminatory attitude.=C2=A0 =C2=A0

I think you're mis-representing the position of a lot of people here; please don't do that.

The fast-moving Docker.com tech has been moving towards a standards-based "Open Container" https://opencontainers.org/ definition, an= d many people
have worked across the standard, the implementation, kernel, & tooling,=
now in ports on FreeBSD, to make this possible. Just a few examples:

- https://github.com/samuelkarp/runj/
- https://github.com/dfr/ocijail/
- https://medium.com/@dfr/oci-contain= ers-for-freebsd-512a6df2bc85

It would be great to get your feedback on one of these and see what you
tried, and where it breaks with your expectations.

While it may be possible to run many linux containers with this tooling, systemd and other linux-specific things could be present in any container you pull, from systemd, to filesystem requirements, and expecting all
of these to work seamlessly is unrealistic.

If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker experience, then, yes,
use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't think there are many FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large pragmatic people.
It's ok to use different tools in different situations.

A+
Dave


--
Mario.


--
Mario.
--000000000000b65cd805f90d310e-- From nobody Tue Apr 11 11:02:24 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Pwjbr55Dhz44fqX for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 11:02:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4fe0003c768a1.667f20e4e9165b94bd3583eaa9d2f0ce@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Pwjbq5ppXz4NZw for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 11:02:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4fe0003c768a1.667f20e4e9165b94bd3583eaa9d2f0ce@email-od.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b="PC/jPrxz"; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4fe0003c768a1.667f20e4e9165b94bd3583eaa9d2f0ce@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4fe0003c768a1.667f20e4e9165b94bd3583eaa9d2f0ce@email-od.com; dmarc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1681210952; x=1683802952; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:to:from:date:x-thread-info:subject:to:from:cc:reply-to; bh=BtotXoVb4/sWt+8Qyc/dj4AUuG6QztcL5JflKfaI4og=; b=PC/jPrxzRB5/bBCoRy4Bv46gZO/MUYdmayP/Q7oB0bUZR8rA8q5kXwjw/Z6aRqMdVJaqLAyruGYhN/V5IoQ2ul5cIqNl+4+afT7ruRlT6kCApA84dYx84YGQNkgLcC/Ms7mzEi8Upy+hXbfsrc3m2sou0h57DrQihMpyrlm2gzQ= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi4xZDRmZTAwMDNjNzY4YTEucXVlc3Rpb25zPWZyZWVic2Qub3Jn Received: from r3.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r3.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.191.3]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Tue, 11 Apr 2023 07:02:26 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (86-42-20-118-dynamic.b-ras1.bdt.dublin.eircom.net [86.42.20.118]) by r3.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Tue, 11 Apr 2023 07:02:26 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.95 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1pmBlY-000JDr-HR for questions@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 12:02:24 +0100 Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2023 12:02:24 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Docker Message-Id: <20230411120224.39e59c615fef2c2a19466f62@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.33; amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.70 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.999]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4fe0003c768a1.667f20e4e9165b94bd3583eaa9d2f0ce@email-od.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.191.3:received]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4fe0003c768a1.667f20e4e9165b94bd3583eaa9d2f0ce@email-od.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[email-od.com:dkim] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Pwjbq5ppXz4NZw X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Sun, 9 Apr 2023 16:04:54 +0200 Mario Marietto wrote: > It seems that docker now can run on FreeBSD natively,not with the > collaboration of bhyve. What do you think ? The trouble with saying "docker" is that it is multiple things None of which exist in FreeBSD in quite the same way. There's the layered filesystem, text file based container composition system used to create container images from a mixture of provided and generated filesystem overlay layers which makes it easy to create and use canned applications/servers/... There's the swarm management system that can orchestrate launching a complex distributed application defined entirely in a text file. Usually deprecated in favour of kubernetes these days. There's the massive library of images available at docker.io allowing complex scalable applications to be created like piling up Lego bricks. Provided of course you trust them, but many do without coming to grief. The question is which (if any) of these does anyone want for FreeBSD sufficiently strongly to put the work in to make it happen, and is there sufficient interest to sustain such a project. Before answering those questions it would be a good idea to look closely at the BSD flavoured alternatives such as Nomad and its pot jails, or the possibilities inherent in iocage templates. For many these provide practical solutions that, while not being anywhere near as slick as docker and kubernetes, do get the job done. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From nobody Tue Apr 11 16:31:27 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PwrvR3gh0z457mt for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 16:31:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) Received: from soth.netfence.it (mailserver.netfence.it [78.134.96.152]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mailserver.netfence.it", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PwrvP6bZRz40XS for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 16:31:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=netfence.it header.s=202304 header.b=R2SOERGb; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ml@netfence.it designates 78.134.96.152 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ml@netfence.it; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=netfence.it Received: from [10.1.2.18] (alamar.local.netfence.it [10.1.2.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by soth.netfence.it (8.17.1/8.17.1) with ESMTPSA id 33BGVRGU096635 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 18:31:28 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=netfence.it; s=202304; t=1681230688; bh=0NZmIxLIOEoX8/aAhky3yxd6/aJ/g5SVUTL+KYEtqL8=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=R2SOERGby7klM2Cp7D89CVPzj8HBl/QPWyDJ/3AWuWzvCvxmnSuNE5HFJX2H79uZP 7DxBx3MIj/Bzxbamg9sL9Z3xNuOUGkDbtogo83zpsOZOjfWLdRot2J8MsdbmzDndgP YjX/Mjr7y7JyH84585KmVxxqNrcW6V9e9OSIHRl8= X-Authentication-Warning: soth.netfence.it: Host alamar.local.netfence.it [10.1.2.18] claimed to be [10.1.2.18] Message-ID: <85aae9f9-1957-644b-63dd-924093ffa5a4@netfence.it> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2023 18:31:27 +0200 List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.10.0 Subject: Re: seeking recommendation: UPS for Freebsd Content-Language: en-US To: questions@freebsd.org References: <25649.61743.236383.879770@jerusalem.litteratus.org> From: Andrea Venturoli In-Reply-To: <25649.61743.236383.879770@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[netfence.it,none]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[netfence.it:s=202304]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:78.134.96.152:c]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[netfence.it:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:35612, ipnet:78.134.0.0/17, country:IT]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PwrvP6bZRz40XS X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On 4/9/23 00:56, Robert Huff wrote: > Hello: Hello. > I have an older APC UPS (BackUPS RS 1500) that after years of > excellent service _may_ need to be replaced. > Is there a particular brand - or even model - that folks would > recommend for a medium-to-heavy home office environment? (This isn't > the only UPS; it's just the only one causiong problems right now.) > Budget is not unlimited, so I'm not looking for anything fancy; > just something that will (with replacement batteries) just do its job > for the next 15+ years. IME, you won't get 15+ years from a modern APC unit. I've sold a few SmartUPS and I even have one myself: number is around the dozen, so it's too little to make stats, however all those from 2000-2010 are still there working properly, while all those from 2011-2015 have already been replaced once. That said I still suggest APC, because it's still better than the usual crap. As an alternative, I had very positive experience with Eaton: it's too early to see if they outlive APCs, they are usually a little more expensive (though temporary offers can sometime reverse the game), but I was impressed by the apparent quality. Notice however, they are often louder, so a decisive factor is where they'll be installed. sysutils/nut works perfectly with them (at least the models I've tried). bye av. From nobody Tue Apr 11 19:49:52 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PwxJQ18j5z44SMW for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 19:49:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alex@alexburke.ca) Received: from out-8.mta0.migadu.com (out-8.mta0.migadu.com [91.218.175.8]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PwxJP53PLz3y7T for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 19:49:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alex@alexburke.ca) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2023 21:49:52 +0200 (GMT+02:00) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=alexburke.ca; s=key1; t=1681242594; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=/8M4L/OyC6vBwBcczefsPCniOoxJYcvnt4wyZMt3EuQ=; b=AEDqBCv6aeF4E7b0hNOu75j2pD5dH4smxUQA2mNK4/fWKNdoJPql9K+Xh4EEiBtQxilF3N VWYqbVBAuaNZM8bk0pAiVIqXdUcxVp58EN2RU91Hg3kfdEqxdU6KiOrb4AruIKV3xx92Z9 sDfMi7V6S+0UvcMLBBk1OHD2y7Mlg1I= X-Report-Abuse: Please report any abuse attempt to abuse@migadu.com and include these headers. From: Alexander Burke To: Andrea Venturoli Cc: questions@freebsd.org Message-ID: <850e0095-b19b-488f-9884-993596cedd28@alexburke.ca> In-Reply-To: <85aae9f9-1957-644b-63dd-924093ffa5a4@netfence.it> References: <25649.61743.236383.879770@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <85aae9f9-1957-644b-63dd-924093ffa5a4@netfence.it> Subject: Re: seeking recommendation: UPS for Freebsd List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Correlation-ID: <850e0095-b19b-488f-9884-993596cedd28@alexburke.ca> X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_OUT X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PwxJP53PLz3y7T X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:202172, ipnet:91.218.175.0/24, country:CH] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N Hello, Don't forget that you can change the cooling fans for something quieter. I have a Smart-UPS 3000 RM XL 3U, which dates from back when nobody cared a= bout noise and so it had two obnoxious fans. After searching for fans with comparable airflow but sorting by dB, I order= ed two of these, which wasn't cheap but they are FAR quieter and will likel= y outlive the UPS: https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/ebm-papst-inc/8414NMU/4146214 Cheers, Alex ---------------------------------------- Apr 11, 2023 18:32:02 Andrea Venturoli : > On 4/9/23 00:56, Robert Huff wrote: >=20 >> Hello: >=20 > Hello. >=20 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I have an older APC UPS (BackUPS RS 1500) that after = years of >> excellent service _may_ need to be replaced. >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Is there a particular brand - or even model - that fo= lks would >> recommend for a medium-to-heavy home office environment?=C2=A0 (This isn= 't >> the only UPS; it's just the only one causiong problems right now.) >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Budget is not unlimited, so I'm not looking for anyth= ing fancy; >> just something that will (with replacement batteries) just do its job >> for the next 15+ years. >=20 > IME, you won't get 15+ years from a modern APC unit. >=20 > I've sold a few SmartUPS and I even have one myself: number is around the= dozen, so it's too little to make stats, however all those from 2000-2010 = are still there working properly, while all those from 2011-2015 have alrea= dy been replaced once. > That said I still suggest APC, because it's still better than the usual c= rap. >=20 > As an alternative, I had very positive experience with Eaton: it's too ea= rly to see if they outlive APCs, they are usually a little more expensive (= though temporary offers can sometime reverse the game), but I was impressed= by the apparent quality. > Notice however, they are often louder, so a decisive factor is where they= 'll be installed. > sysutils/nut works perfectly with them (at least the models I've tried). >=20 > =C2=A0 bye > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 av. From nobody Tue Apr 11 19:53:11 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PwxNw0lVmz44Svr for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 19:53:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mail@osfux.nl) Received: from vm1982.osfux.nl (vm1982.osfux.nl [IPv6:2a03:5500:1724:55:79:99:187:212]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PwxNv182bz46GF for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 19:53:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mail@osfux.nl) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=osfux.nl header.s=default header.b=B+3XH1rM; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mail@osfux.nl designates 2a03:5500:1724:55:79:99:187:212 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mail@osfux.nl; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=osfux.nl Received: from vm1982.osfux.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vm1982.osfux.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CCD4185 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 21:53:22 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=osfux.nl; s=default; t=1681242802; bh=ByFM0EEzedlq/f2IO3rDRVxtrhCo9yqVhmKDukoMoDM=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=B+3XH1rMrB001saKqNqgtJpJiZe9C6lum3pRrVcS/birtjOrRAsHJ63shilS0cnk6 AXhtq9GF7nrTBYLnvWKocsoGIemkgy686ZlRTHNfBI1OaIVm3sJXIPFgOCZMy28gng 7Ykc5Io0ndMzIj72/LKWBdsd6XVLhopCk/P0yoAx9P7uYQt60PTyQVlUwkUN4nK5qK SVKFc88wwr8AsUe2xfBiThzinjcG9j8ATQt7h9sZeWQ8KkgjygvdZ981O2VmppzuPw DMff06+D+brUV5ZeHESEnL50gZmLdcBZSp0sL1Mbbbe5xOK33z8O+DlIxCSU/dXMki 3pJbPOVpXnmB2ANYUjrdl4SUyvQ77E04F9QjF5yvZfr2Z+gCCe1Y/dMYPMZiugo5t7 5WINw6q5LukZ+QSb3mEejUJAwrUGzXZV3jYldZD/i9X6YgFpvI7O2JjkSAb7ECM3PT dQoDEosw4dOhWP0UFmgsekF+LBdTHDLL8SpeKi98Y45G13koHS/6E5B45HfkxnRlZ/ VXHWONNdk5XSyhokBJts0uLlMA1Lp/3vTmzgt5VDw70EvoEduGhGTKIo5+6v6N7Rj7 zeUK99H/ZnuGc96OSORCYxP2l3twh6DyvaTYWXmfjsofemdSJgY0Kgup8cMaFX0XQY MMS98ATVDu4GrPXARNluwAgM= X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none shortcircuit=no X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.5 Received: from [192.168.9.195] (unknown [143.244.41.109]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by vm1982.osfux.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 21:53:22 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <007bb54f-27ce-b61f-fe12-a61dfc3fdf63@osfux.nl> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2023 21:53:11 +0200 List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.9.0 Subject: Re: seeking recommendation: UPS for Freebsd Content-Language: en-US To: questions@freebsd.org References: <25649.61743.236383.879770@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <85aae9f9-1957-644b-63dd-924093ffa5a4@netfence.it> From: Ruben In-Reply-To: <85aae9f9-1957-644b-63dd-924093ffa5a4@netfence.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.998]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[osfux.nl,reject]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[osfux.nl:s=default]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[osfux.nl:+]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8315, ipnet:2a03:5500::/31, country:NL]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PwxNv182bz46GF X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N Hi, I'm running a few Eaton USB UPS units on FreeBSD, excellent drivers / documentation on FreeBSD (and Linux): smooth experience. Regards, Ruben On 4/11/23 18:31, Andrea Venturoli wrote: > On 4/9/23 00:56, Robert Huff wrote: Stuff snipped. > As an alternative, I had very positive experience with Eaton: it's too > early to see if they outlive APCs, they are usually a little more > expensive (though temporary offers can sometime reverse the game), but I > was impressed by the apparent quality. > Notice however, they are often louder, so a decisive factor is where > they'll be installed. > sysutils/nut works perfectly with them (at least the models I've tried). > More stuf snipped. 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[209.85.128.172]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u8-20020a25f808000000b00b8c31377e1bsm3411741ybd.54.2023.04.11.18.47.42 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 11 Apr 2023 18:47:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw1-f172.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-54f6fc7943eso75018077b3.3 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 18:47:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a81:ae46:0:b0:54e:edf3:b48f with SMTP id g6-20020a81ae46000000b0054eedf3b48fmr830122ywk.5.1681264062159; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 18:47:42 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230411044832.10F73170F8@freefall.freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <20230411044832.10F73170F8@freefall.freebsd.org> From: Tomek CEDRO Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 03:47:31 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: FreeBSD 13.2-RELEASE Now Available To: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.29 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.992]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::b34:from,209.85.128.172:received]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Px5FC6QHwz44X6 X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 6:48=E2=80=AFAM Colin Percival wrote: > Date: April 11, 2023 > > The FreeBSD Release Engineering Team is pleased to announce the > availability of FreeBSD 13.2-RELEASE. This is the third release of the > stable/13 branch. Okay, here we go on 13.1-RELEASE-p6 with freebsd-update upgrade -r 13.2-RELEASE :-) I can see that some files are gone in 13.2: /etc/disktab - I still use floppies!! :-P /etc/services - that was kind of handy cheatsheet for services ports.. is there a replacement? /etc/rc.d/wpa_supplicant - is it moved to the port version? If so why that config file is not moved to /usr/local/etc ? There may be some configurations over there. /etc/rc.d/zpool - I hope everything boots fine I have three zpools here :-P ...and now I am talking from 13.2-RELEASE-p0 already.. all works fine.. pkg updated smoothly.. zpools are in place.. drm works fine on amdgpu :-) Thank you :-) Tomek -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From nobody Wed Apr 12 02:29:11 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Px6976F2Sz453FW for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 02:29:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tim@timpreston.net) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Px6974hVLz49cv for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 02:29:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tim@timpreston.net) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; 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Tue, 11 Apr 2023 22:29:13 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------KCph7LhRZE0vFG0fiFF3JOa0" Message-ID: <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 12:29:11 +1000 List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.10.0 From: Tim Preston Subject: Re: Docker To: Mario Marietto Cc: freebsd-questions References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> Content-Language: en-AU In-Reply-To: X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Px6974hVLz49cv X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:19151, ipnet:66.111.4.0/24, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------KCph7LhRZE0vFG0fiFF3JOa0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Mario, I may not have been clear enough in my last email. Docker will NEVER run on FreeBSD, because Docker is built on technologies which only exist in the Linux kernel. FreeBSD cannot run Linux containers, it can only run FreeBSD jails. It's not because FreeBSD programmers think they're more special than Linux programmers, it's just not technically possible. If you want to run any of the Docker images available on the internet you can try the tooling linked by Dave, which MIGHT let you run SOME Docker images inside a FreeBSD jail, using FreeBSD's Linux compatibility layer. But these images really require a Linux kernel to run properly. A better approach, if the applications you want to run are available in ports, or if the source code builds on FreeBSD, is to run them natively in a jail using tools similar to Docker like Bastille (https://bastillebsd.org/) or Pot (https://github.com/bsdpot/pot). I hope some of this helps. Tim On Tue, 11 Apr 2023, at 8:45 PM, Mario Marietto wrote: > ---> If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker experience, then, > yes,use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't think there are many > FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large pragmatic > people. It's ok to use different tools in different situations. > > But home users usually are poor people. To have a good computer means > often to be lucky. I mainly use FreeBSD because I feel good when I use > many of its tools. But it often happens that I also need to be able to > have some different tool that I like because I tried it in a different > system and I liked it. Docker is one of those tools. Users love > it,even today,but it is becoming old. For sure there are good > technical reasons behind this "love". The development of Docker on > FreeBSD stopped a lot of years ago. And the reasons for that stop is > not only caused by technical reasons,in my opinion,but,as I said,even > by a form of discrimination. The storic FreeBSD users have been > trained using its own tools and they won't change. They don't want to > spend money to develop a new/oldtool that will enrich the tools park ? > This mindset is not focused on the satisfaction of those users that > could migrate or that want to try FreeBSD,after having used another > OS. It is some kind ofsectarian mentality. Yes I can run a VM running > Linux,but this will waste resources on the machine. Why should I run a > whole VM if I need only to run a tool ? If the tool is not widely > used,ok,developing it is not worth it. But we are talking of widely > used tools here and Docker is one of those tools. > > On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:26 PM Mario Marietto > wrote: > > For sure there are users / developers that are in the middle,like > it happens in the political area. I like this kind of person. I'm > one of those people. My criticism is against those users and > developers that show an exaggerated "love" and fidelity towards a > system, whether by ideology, whether by habit, or by commercial > reasons. I'm afrequent visitor to various freebsd forums and I > often read opinionsradicalized on linux technologies that should > not enter the freebsd world, simply because in Freebsd there are > already excellent tools that do their job well. Yes,they work > well,but why not add more and different tools thatwhich would > allow the creation of bridges between different operating systems ? > > On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:17 PM Dave Cottlehuber > wrote: > > On Tue, 11 Apr 2023, at 09:44, Mario Marietto wrote: > > Tim,you are wasting your time. It seems that all of these (good) > > FreeBSD developers don't want you to use Linux technologies > if you have > > chosen FreeBSD as the main OS. That's not good and it sounds > like a > > discriminatory attitude. > > I think you're mis-representing the position of a lot of > people here; > please don't do that. > > The fast-moving Docker.com tech has been moving towards a > standards-based > "Open Container" https://opencontainers.org/ definition, and > many people > have worked across the standard, the implementation, kernel, & > tooling, > now in ports on FreeBSD, to make this possible. Just a few > examples: > > - https://github.com/samuelkarp/runj/ > - https://github.com/dfr/ocijail/ > - https://medium.com/@dfr/oci-containers-for-freebsd-512a6df2bc85 > > It would be great to get your feedback on one of these and see > what you > tried, and where it breaks with your expectations. > > While it may be possible to run many linux containers with > this tooling, > systemd and other linux-specific things could be present in > any container > you pull, from systemd, to filesystem requirements, and > expecting all > of these to work seamlessly is unrealistic. > > If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker experience, then, > yes, > use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't think there > are many > FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large > pragmatic people. > It's ok to use different tools in different situations. > > A+ > Dave > > > > -- > Mario. > > > > -- > Mario. --------------KCph7LhRZE0vFG0fiFF3JOa0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hi Mario,

I may not have been clear enough in my last email.

Docker will NEVER run on FreeBSD, because Docker is built on technologies which only exist in the Linux kernel.

FreeBSD cannot run Linux containers, it can only run FreeBSD jails.

It's not because FreeBSD programmers think they're more special than Linux programmers, it's just not technically possible.

If you want to run any of the Docker images available on the internet you can try the tooling linked by Dave, which MIGHT let you run SOME Docker images inside a FreeBSD jail, using FreeBSD's Linux compatibility layer. But these images really require a Linux kernel to run properly.

A better approach, if the applications you want to run are available in ports, or if the source code builds on FreeBSD, is to run them natively in a jail using tools similar to Docker like Bastille (https://bastillebsd.org/) or Pot (https://github.com/bsdpot/pot).

I hope some of this helps.

Tim


On Tue, 11 Apr 2023, at 8:45 PM, Mario Marietto wrote:
---> If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker experience, then, yes,use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't think there are many
FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large pragmatic people. It's ok to use different tools in different situations.

But home users usually are poor people. To have a good computer means often to be lucky. I mainly use FreeBSD because I feel good when I use many of its tools. But it often happens that I also need to be able to have some different tool that I like because I tried it in a different system and I liked it. Docker is one of those tools. Users love it,even today,but it is becoming old. For sure there are good technical reasons behind this "love". The development of Docker on FreeBSD stopped a lot of years ago. And the reasons for that stop is not only caused by technical reasons,in my opinion,but,as I said,even by a form of discrimination. The storic FreeBSD users have been trained using its own tools and they won't change. They don't want to spend money to develop a new/old tool that will enrich the tools park ? This mindset is not focused on the satisfaction of those users that could migrate or that want to try FreeBSD,after having used another OS. It is some kind of sectarian mentality. Yes I can run a VM running Linux,but this will waste resources on the machine. Why should I run a whole VM if I need only to run a tool ? If the tool is not widely used,ok,developing it is not worth it. But we are talking of widely used tools here and Docker is one of those tools.

On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:26 PM Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com> wrote:
For sure there are users / developers that are in the middle,like it happens in the political area. I like this kind of person. I'm one of those people. My criticism is against those users and developers that show an exaggerated "love" and fidelity towards a system, whether by ideology, whether by habit, or by commercial reasons. I'm a frequent visitor to various freebsd forums and I often read opinions radicalized on linux technologies that should not enter the freebsd world, simply because in Freebsd there are already excellent tools that do their job well. Yes,they work well,but why not add more and different tools that which would allow the creation of bridges between different operating systems ?

On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:17 PM Dave Cottlehuber <dch@skunkwerks.at> wrote:
On Tue, 11 Apr 2023, at 09:44, Mario Marietto wrote:
> Tim,you are wasting your time. It seems that all of these (good)
> FreeBSD developers don't want you to use Linux technologies if you have
> chosen FreeBSD as the main OS. That's not good and it sounds like a
> discriminatory attitude.   

I think you're mis-representing the position of a lot of people here;
please don't do that.

The fast-moving Docker.com tech has been moving towards a standards-based
"Open Container" https://opencontainers.org/ definition, and many people
have worked across the standard, the implementation, kernel, & tooling,
now in ports on FreeBSD, to make this possible. Just a few examples:


It would be great to get your feedback on one of these and see what you
tried, and where it breaks with your expectations.

While it may be possible to run many linux containers with this tooling,
systemd and other linux-specific things could be present in any container
you pull, from systemd, to filesystem requirements, and expecting all
of these to work seamlessly is unrealistic.

If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker experience, then, yes,
use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't think there are many
FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large pragmatic people.
It's ok to use different tools in different situations.

A+
Dave


--
Mario.


--
Mario.

--------------KCph7LhRZE0vFG0fiFF3JOa0-- From nobody Wed Apr 12 03:39:04 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Px7jn4zPzz458DB for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 03:39:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yuri@aetern.org) Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Px7jn1s1fz3mQv for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 03:39:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yuri@aetern.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.47]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FFAD32009C4; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 23:39:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 11 Apr 2023 23:39:08 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aetern.org; h=cc :content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type:date:date :from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to; s=fm2; t= 1681270747; x=1681357147; bh=gXBxYqhWMr6wKii4Cvx4Ncn++ZZy41oOdO8 3hANerlU=; b=VKKEr15mNS1IVTNjwiJ2FOxBQNaiMKmeIccDxE+9XawvbLsQ8Hi 685ORfJb4IE2XY7xecVpnb9hvooZVcKD7EbR4GFFgMHE9f69a1Ik2scxLrlAAhS1 IYF4Eapz6hj3DHxc9Bd15SGAQZrSU6FEgXYDpKQWKF/CFqkNP/woDWeNUJrnkCko OygGhd7Qb8GXgFUD27k5AhtaCKVmTjg/8Y9GZcesT9rgwND4PQhrG/1NGo/y8g0o EK+n7xoPojbaJvS4BVYtJSGloVnpkPp1zB8XAgrmI6KoAghlsODv5/JF4YvjPsYu REzaUuQny/k3YxW5LB7F+nbzHLu092wG81w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :content-type:date:date:feedback-id:feedback-id:from:from :in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy :x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; t=1681270747; x= 1681357147; bh=gXBxYqhWMr6wKii4Cvx4Ncn++ZZy41oOdO83hANerlU=; b=d sR8vCDKhkz0EIj8GJQJcDkHNAZVVZqVqP32GPnx75W26GrR5I67PeAt1f71xspWf R5Cy4ouJ94DSghKyVZH9L5Xph98G2PMFtA6LC/m+e8Iu20YS1oj1kBQD3uFtljz7 CfZ1iIZPJLVXK3WvpaC5JP46+/Vw7gGnRTVrbF/tqmsQlg29HzepLRncn/zbXr6h mqe92WRPVegxjQFRXFk8UFFBo0wf7dHcT9uj4rJC1Ak1jTqokuG8GMwxfg5sslRp STr/d9dOo9HwI6h1cIc6zzWhckouIy90gYO7AuTgBmU0+qqbWZvaY1l2Z4ZZLKtj Uwda4jJ64EVt71tSsBbSg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvhedrvdekhedgjeefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvfhfhjggtgfesthekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepjghurhhi uceohihurhhisegrvghtvghrnhdrohhrgheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhephedtkeehfe elueehgfeuteegveeukedtuddtgeffhfeuueetleegieetveejueevnecuvehluhhsthgv rhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhephihurhhisegrvghtvghrnh drohhrgh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i0d79475b:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 23:39:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0d8a1bd9-5d83-4778-bd3b-382b204b0707@aetern.org> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 05:39:04 +0200 List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.9.1 Subject: Re: FreeBSD 13.2-RELEASE Now Available Content-Language: en-US To: Tomek CEDRO , FreeBSD Questions Mailing List References: <20230411044832.10F73170F8@freefall.freebsd.org> From: Yuri In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Px7jn1s1fz3mQv X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:29838, ipnet:64.147.123.0/24, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N Tomek CEDRO wrote: > On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 6:48 AM Colin Percival wrote: >> Date: April 11, 2023 >> >> The FreeBSD Release Engineering Team is pleased to announce the >> availability of FreeBSD 13.2-RELEASE. This is the third release of the >> stable/13 branch. > > Okay, here we go on 13.1-RELEASE-p6 with freebsd-update upgrade -r > 13.2-RELEASE :-) > > I can see that some files are gone in 13.2: > > /etc/disktab - I still use floppies!! :-P > > /etc/services - that was kind of handy cheatsheet for services ports.. > is there a replacement? > > /etc/rc.d/wpa_supplicant - is it moved to the port version? If so why > that config file is not moved to /usr/local/etc ? There may be some > configurations over there. > > /etc/rc.d/zpool - I hope everything boots fine I have three zpools here :-P All of the above files are still there for me (and are there on 14-CURRENT system), something must have gone wrong with your update? They are also in the src tree, and not listed in ObsoleteFiles. > ...and now I am talking from 13.2-RELEASE-p0 already.. all works > fine.. pkg updated smoothly.. zpools are in place.. drm works fine on > amdgpu :-) From nobody Wed Apr 12 03:43:15 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Px7pb0Gr2z458nH for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 03:43:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.133]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "Telekom Security ServerID OV Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Px7pZ3krHz3vJH for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 03:43:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.5.230.94]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue010 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1M5Q2f-1plcZd0x8f-001RPE; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 05:43:16 +0200 Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 05:43:15 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Tomek CEDRO Cc: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Subject: Re: FreeBSD 13.2-RELEASE Now Available Message-Id: <20230412054315.05dfe374.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20230411044832.10F73170F8@freefall.freebsd.org> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Sqk5jKG0MOO5ZBRzy4FFGpo+FctGnM7M4ovafG9Zl8K78MP6F45 3zzl04JX/LMVezabW9PqPBko0vv1AeSdUEmJvcviKoUimkvoQzQ0Sb9sGOxb2cnRjzWoCLb C17VVM8LGXaPoqHswoVUMbTG90fkmBMyZ42hj8ui99s23BM/I0e40z3yJpFx3ubZ6IajPWP jWf77YMDSu8/OoNvEhh6A== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:J/Wt5FekCTA=;wuBsF+5qIWmjq+hQRum5fY9L1bO jDNtvo11eMoHYK1PCTLAVBiiIhnrSWLvJuSJnmqvMnZGLdUhdmd9GU89j57k3mkm5yaziLmPK 2twfAkjoXwswayDgcVEtHWtjNbTKch4FxvHfr4R2RQ3V2L2RqCxqp1qJS4+OLNw9uDDCpLaSe XOvsEIKTOj14Xgx8TC9hUJRF8/F+1gHIv+o39hAkhRrMTIwaKxg7K0M6pcfdN+bD+hlNQ748D lMW7QExCJqB8LUUs5nnBlwhYwsNo8o2s7tn5EsQG3UaRNxGW/apGzsnSZJovc7Rxk3FlHhDRk xhDNJEurFOYOGLnPmYjamuKiTDmxf40EV4tlc7OnYXO8EOD86SVMn+DbaXvbUOj7V4ziRf9oK kIeRkJ9OImGLpbgKV9rtSJSKMhVo4Zpvexua1DbHemyi3rgbrjlK9+S4CzLbzqSocWl9R0yUl BEkd1rWGUrMGMcfcqAekjzNlbIRsE00EcKXprI7RK/13tiVBt42jBWPUNQtEbanlb6cZSb7w6 8GKinpBGtBNFR1BkwJzuz3wKZCAfiKVT6DezdZIFxfO1Ri+OR4kHcBBJ81OTFKsUYeKctIkyS bVyUyykUIkwps/WHcgcHe4snQZ6Hp1xKytMMdp2yVT19rXi9oNbEwm3eoktnmXRJ125ZQzrT9 +1HNTa0bS/zx9AiJlYfzpcKUnB8BI9iI2eq7dkZYog== X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Px7pZ3krHz3vJH X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 03:47:31 +0200, Tomek CEDRO wrote: > I can see that some files are gone in 13.2: > > /etc/disktab - I still use floppies!! :-P And the vpo(4) driver for parallel SCSI drives is also gone; how am I supposed to read my important business files stored on a parallel Zip drive now?! ;-) > /etc/services - that was kind of handy cheatsheet for services ports.. > is there a replacement? Maybe in /usr/share/misc? > /etc/rc.d/wpa_supplicant - is it moved to the port version? If so why > that config file is not moved to /usr/local/etc ? There may be some > configurations over there. Technically, 3rd part software should store their config in /usr/local/etc, but some (!) software still checks if files are present in /etc - probably a Linuxism - and reads them if they exist. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... 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[209.85.219.172]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a71-20020a811a4a000000b0054640a352f2sm3931367ywa.20.2023.04.11.20.50.47 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 11 Apr 2023 20:50:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-f172.google.com with SMTP id y186so10459777yby.13 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 20:50:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a25:d706:0:b0:b8f:2044:4068 with SMTP id o6-20020a25d706000000b00b8f20444068mr1099019ybg.0.1681271447579; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 20:50:47 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230411044832.10F73170F8@freefall.freebsd.org> <0d8a1bd9-5d83-4778-bd3b-382b204b0707@aetern.org> In-Reply-To: <0d8a1bd9-5d83-4778-bd3b-382b204b0707@aetern.org> From: Tomek CEDRO Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 05:50:36 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: FreeBSD 13.2-RELEASE Now Available To: Yuri Cc: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Px7zG0Bvdz494B X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 5:39=E2=80=AFAM Yuri wrote: > Tomek CEDRO wrote: > > On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 6:48=E2=80=AFAM Colin Percival wrote: > >> Date: April 11, 2023 > >> The FreeBSD Release Engineering Team is pleased to announce the > >> availability of FreeBSD 13.2-RELEASE. This is the third release of = the > >> stable/13 branch. > > > > Okay, here we go on 13.1-RELEASE-p6 with freebsd-update upgrade -r > > 13.2-RELEASE :-) > > I can see that some files are gone in 13.2: > > /etc/disktab - I still use floppies!! :-P > > /etc/services - that was kind of handy cheatsheet for services ports.. > > is there a replacement? > > /etc/rc.d/wpa_supplicant - is it moved to the port version? If so why > > that config file is not moved to /usr/local/etc ? There may be some > > configurations over there. > > /etc/rc.d/zpool - I hope everything boots fine I have three zpools here= :-P > > All of the above files are still there for me (and are there on > 14-CURRENT system), something must have gone wrong with your update? > They are also in the src tree, and not listed in ObsoleteFiles. Thanks for the confirmation Yuri. I can still see the /etc/services on 13.2 but I cannot see the /etc/wpa_supplicant.conf (nor /usr/local/erc/wpa_supplicant.conf) and that usually stores my wifi connection settings on a laptop o_O This is what freebsd-update told me to do in order to procees with the upgrade.. is this supposed to be that way? :-P --=20 CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From nobody Wed Apr 12 03:57:01 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Px86g0wY5z459M0 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 03:57:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-yb1-xb2d.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2d]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Px86f6K0tz4NXw for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 03:57:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-yb1-xb2d.google.com with SMTP id f188so42212966ybb.3 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 20:57:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; t=1681271834; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=XKAxDeZqAqOWd6Je3HXJmiULBLeIkLQWTQOgp8SwFe8=; b=UZX7YqEGeFYLVJBD3/Wu4zN98vwO7AKfbK2g2vIzBXnz0sqQnFCDV1lAGFv56RouCa FE6orAzWPJjtlRbroHVjrQHiWZZURrySlAD47lUIEEcOOvhoEtT3gVVZ++kaM0xbV2Ua ye0utQ2hFC1rbRev1YeOLaMFNvPhn+jfRtrGNztqEauJuWO1i2KMkxga97xT9bR7hRUQ 635+G7nAsxV+dB1GbxKG6mY3Cg8gZH4wsrLDgDBlOjcbWm32qFcmF2TiDFNzfxrzn257 yszq7GG5yJ+88IJU8Gelf7EXhDaQHNuRVaxmQKyfjhSSdw8uNQJGJxSJ3tHoF5etbVT6 iH8g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1681271834; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=XKAxDeZqAqOWd6Je3HXJmiULBLeIkLQWTQOgp8SwFe8=; b=GH2t6lCxuSTchnfKukdQ//ImCSPndfkInfT2BPMWC1Zng7xkJphGLUYSjBcw4jj2PV L00D+rcD91Qm3hYzmYYRrrza94XiCsAkat8UoHKhzsVBJxWol6NFApSenNdwOA/eCnQ5 l3qjnnAtAh99WuxdZ51xEKO9UskCGRyLQekld4/zrCB5ba7IUi12hu/JlETc30P9keBj Vw9LGMOwBQiN6CjKGebF9W/IyuSbaI1dThWNUMbYZlhtUGhhKUSIYkyDWeyJ2G9VKcWb ugGZP3uvB0eZsjTmkZMELK43o1PRoC38GyzCzpL8BU6kNC319LW4hUBSo0ccCWBEykbc nU5g== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9fDOHVNb85eIE+wqstfKCr7jzmcPEmOQH720bU/0MoxvVkbQUSx p/tLlK826uhtY0CVbmWSKZBxheoADWIOEzX5A50= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350ZLyI7IRXaiGE1txVh6gkja+CG8GsOZl6bW2gEGH7nMmFbL5xFhRi0LMuSlbHX3K3dP4WONFQ== X-Received: by 2002:a25:6744:0:b0:b8f:383b:b8a4 with SMTP id b65-20020a256744000000b00b8f383bb8a4mr1113390ybc.31.1681271833783; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 20:57:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-f172.google.com (mail-yb1-f172.google.com. [209.85.219.172]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c124-20020a25c082000000b00b8ecde3a652sm2903267ybf.55.2023.04.11.20.57.13 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 11 Apr 2023 20:57:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-f172.google.com with SMTP id y186so10467680yby.13 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 20:57:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a25:e009:0:b0:b8e:db4a:a366 with SMTP id x9-20020a25e009000000b00b8edb4aa366mr769642ybg.11.1681271832978; Tue, 11 Apr 2023 20:57:12 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230411044832.10F73170F8@freefall.freebsd.org> <20230412054315.05dfe374.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20230412054315.05dfe374.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Tomek CEDRO Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 05:57:01 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: FreeBSD 13.2-RELEASE Now Available To: Polytropon Cc: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Px86f6K0tz4NXw X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 5:43=E2=80=AFAM Polytropon wrote: > > On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 03:47:31 +0200, Tomek CEDRO wrote: > > I can see that some files are gone in 13.2: > > /etc/disktab - I still use floppies!! :-P > > And the vpo(4) driver for parallel SCSI drives is also gone; > how am I supposed to read my important business files stored > on a parallel Zip drive now?! ;-) EXACTLY!! :-) :-) :-) Well I still use floppies to work with 16 bit machines.. and I think I will build a controller one day to read/write even Amiga floppies on a PC over USB those MCU and RTOS are quite nice to play nowadays :-) > > /etc/rc.d/wpa_supplicant - is it moved to the port version? If so why > > that config file is not moved to /usr/local/etc ? There may be some > > configurations over there. > > Technically, 3rd part software should store their config > in /usr/local/etc, but some (!) software still checks if > files are present in /etc - probably a Linuxism - and > reads them if they exist. I am just reporting back my experiences with freebsd-update upgrade -r 13.2-RELEASE :-) Aside from some trivial in hand patches of already modified system files, it told me some files that are present on 13.1 are not present anymore on 13.2 so they are about to be deleted and I cannot proceed with the upgrade on no answer.. this was the only thing I noticed that worried me a bit :-) :-) --=20 CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From nobody Wed Apr 12 06:49:06 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PxCx56L4Jz45Nvv for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 06:49:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mx1.riseup.net", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PxCx41kvWz3CYh for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 06:49:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=BkI9WVNj; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net Received: from fews01-sea.riseup.net (unknown [10.0.1.109]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PxCx24HbyzDrrn for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 06:49:10 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1681282150; bh=H4h8zi/8h1FBEO8ffSXxhpFLIUH1Op354vlUk9RKpXY=; h=Subject:From:To:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=BkI9WVNjLTDysDjnlx1HiaK9FG2TK8T+v0hl7ljTEICL1JcXKL5AoHSxNNyFwnTs6 vOxiP5jRuNXhvZ0Z6v/NKsl/BMUWClMcfIEYt+3b3A+rRvMhlMasgQPvvwy42pNmpj Btw0wPRQyQ/m8fjy2qO5/ftW1kSblF3Xql+tIUnU= X-Riseup-User-ID: 3E0F039C7B9D188DB1494E09BA467202170BCD21EF04796D6BCD266748DBA065 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fews01-sea.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4PxCx16XdBzJqVV for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 06:49:09 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <629d5b5fba97951b8b5ec3635dafb74524565bbd.camel@riseup.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD 13.2-RELEASE Now Available From: Ralf Mardorf To: questions@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 08:49:06 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20230412054315.05dfe374.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20230411044832.10F73170F8@freefall.freebsd.org> <20230412054315.05dfe374.freebsd@edvax.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.20 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PxCx41kvWz3CYh X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Wed, 2023-04-12 at 05:43 +0200, Polytropon wrote: > > And the vpo(4) driver for parallel SCSI drives is also gone; > > how am I supposed to read my important business files stored > > on a parallel Zip drive now?! ;-) Hi, a few days ago I experienced that secure erasing data from older SATA3 SSDs doesn't work, since the vendor's secure erase utility for the older SSDs cannot be booted using new hardware. While SATA3 isn't an issue, maybe the old utility fails to boot due to a PKCS#7 signature issue of the Linux kernel they are using for their bootable utility. I don't know. The SSDs are just a few years old, the vendor's utility supporting those SSDs is also a few years old. The new utility doesn't support SSDs that are a few years old. It's not only tricky to get back old data, from very old hardware, it can also be hard to get rid of data on relatively modern hardware. I suspect that more users want to get rid of data on older drives, than on new drives. Regards, Ralf PS anecdote: While a new mobo's firmware might support the Compatibility Support Module, a new Intel processor graphics might not allow to enable it. I'm migrating to new hardware and it already took me several days to get a buzzer working, to always and not just randomly provide POST beep signals. To get help from support related to the power-on self-test signals, they (Gigabyte) asked me to make a screenshot of Windows software that provides system information. I asked them if I'm allowed to provide the wanted information without providing a screenshot from Windows software, especially since no operating system is involved at all during POST. No screenshot from a Windows install of a system that fails to provide always audible POST signals, no support! They didn't tell me that the firmware's slowest fast boot option (it has several levels of fast boot) is the cause for the issue. I found it out myself. From nobody Wed Apr 12 07:20:13 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PxDd10Hxrz45R9p for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 07:20:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) Received: from soth.netfence.it (mailserver.netfence.it [78.134.96.152]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mailserver.netfence.it", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PxDd03fpjz4Cxv for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 07:20:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from [10.1.2.18] (mailserver.netfence.it [78.134.96.152]) (authenticated bits=0) by soth.netfence.it (8.17.1/8.17.1) with ESMTPSA id 33C7KD1G053748 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 12 Apr 2023 09:20:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=netfence.it; s=202304; t=1681284016; bh=bI9MfiY/uUMtKTlD3yk7kYkm8D9teCsw3Fl2aitaPLc=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=m6B49ihTDSPnzHh9ydNmv2qagcUTy9VK9e6nQWimm6OzgghMebnaFRT5IsnoeNtsT p7zZI61OOmoENEsirHyeSDYoqyWt4pYsSJrAqI0eYQ/RGGJDuZp+ozjxbMUoT5tMZ9 CKFrTeLV0z1gVSbsMLGXUp3lbwr+P1KQBDu7f8I8= X-Authentication-Warning: soth.netfence.it: Host mailserver.netfence.it [78.134.96.152] claimed to be [10.1.2.18] Message-ID: <4cabee97-5b0e-bbc9-c35a-020e728f3f73@netfence.it> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 09:20:13 +0200 List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.10.0 Subject: Re: seeking recommendation: UPS for Freebsd Content-Language: en-US To: Alexander Burke Cc: questions@freebsd.org References: <25649.61743.236383.879770@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <85aae9f9-1957-644b-63dd-924093ffa5a4@netfence.it> <850e0095-b19b-488f-9884-993596cedd28@alexburke.ca> From: Andrea Venturoli In-Reply-To: <850e0095-b19b-488f-9884-993596cedd28@alexburke.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.86 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PxDd03fpjz4Cxv X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:35612, ipnet:78.134.0.0/17, country:IT] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On 4/11/23 21:49, Alexander Burke wrote: > Hello, > > Don't forget that you can change the cooling fans for something quieter. Hello. It's not that the fan are necessarily noisier; IME (on a limited range of models), APCs will only run fans when on battery or charging or room is very hot, while Eatons' fans are always-on. Fine for a server room, not for an office where people work. bye av. From nobody Wed Apr 12 13:38:47 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PxP2P5YHRz44mvW for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 13:39:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yb1-xb36.google.com (mail-yb1-xb36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b36]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PxP2P3xDxz3Qwb for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 13:39:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-yb1-xb36.google.com with SMTP id h198so18229323ybg.12 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 06:39:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1681306764; x=1683898764; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=CfSXxsJIxXqbY/u8JRYpL0YNOjj0S7sXeRTq/WIYCl0=; b=HSEq5ds7ib9l648j5OZ0UPV9G9zNFu8v1H8pLDXu3EdzNrGYtAUYcXVqZIzMEog4qf /YsUrw3tQGBGnnU2fyj5N6sA80amMlrk0GMcYROikoRcp98sX7O5x32DnIZ0stUuuNva UfCaM4A6RowYhqfzLzi3S38TTEhEA94E/Of5Iv1+Khb6jIw8NPi+e1e7K8V4Df4af/9s /VMfI4RzAiUpHD+HEgTcR/2m27YmifLRcsfQDIxGSjq2a1eFA8vUDGYUjQO1f6wCh70L rbU7mhevVm4QGH61wYdydX5s+Pq7w4TUCmei2DK416xC413zccyp46dlhcR42h0mtu0p qCwA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1681306764; x=1683898764; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=CfSXxsJIxXqbY/u8JRYpL0YNOjj0S7sXeRTq/WIYCl0=; b=09RhLq5/Nq/t5Xt7PSnC+J1+RzSi5Tpy4krXoMipiQrNKNImp2TRH+Hk2hyj/p56i9 Z2mxEbGeS+Jlr5EgDhzcY4CvU2Jk+QKLYRyO1RihlsAFzgYoJst7BZ2CQuAlGN9ouUNc 8ywqxgMFTW75z7b0Y1FuFb02tLdOQ1KjEC8qkKfY7FpKWFL8NOUA4RKSLREx3VzzNBT5 TC95XfNaOGxJ4eF0Dmr3VX+9foODr22NZ6a6el1+QJ/q7oU4dd8b9QFQLMT14fLWwWoP VLIVvcHNG+L9/uve5Gi3G8U0fTL9sIJCSeXRSbwkdYKewoLYM4AiwsLZ4G33xjd99wrH mnJQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9fU/MMfAe9KmZSu+p1xkIhmtvhgbiaV0HR5NIGYMi3GdiVJm+zn c+pdlasd0VrULCPJ6G5g1LkiYFp70U2QBaD26Gf3ioCGVpPUTQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350ZrRyIX9co+JFqdesTcjQtxoW2O7WCRv8gYqH6f4xaBqivrcCV0eckiImu8whN3ZdCrY5eFKRH84aipApfhiZw= X-Received: by 2002:a25:d084:0:b0:b8b:edb1:95f with SMTP id h126-20020a25d084000000b00b8bedb1095fmr7518400ybg.10.1681306764053; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 06:39:24 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> In-Reply-To: <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> From: Mario Marietto Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 15:38:47 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Docker To: Tim Preston Cc: freebsd-questions Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006e143905f923bc02" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PxP2P3xDxz3Qwb X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --0000000000006e143905f923bc02 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ---> Docker will NEVER run on FreeBSD, because Docker is built on technologies which only exist in the Linux kernel. I don't agree with this. In my humble opinion Docker can run on FreeBSD. For sure,not using the same technology that it uses on Linux. FreeBSD does not use the kernel of Linux,so it cannot lean on it,but I'm sure that it can lean on a lot of linux features that have already been implemented on FreeBSD. Maybe they should be improved. And on some other technologies that can be created almost from scratch. In my opinion Docker does not work in FreeBSD not for technical reasons. I'm sure that the technical problems can be solved if there is the will,the need to overcome them. Honestly I think it doesn't happen because there are habits and internal beliefs in every group of OS developers. I'm talking about a certain type of closed-mindedness and sense of belonging in a group that you don't want to be scratched by tools that come from other types of OS cultures. Docker is not needed in FreeBSD because there are already similar tools that are working well and many systems engineers have spent time and money to learn how to administer them. If docker were implemented, these system administrators would continue to use their favorite tools (jails), even in the industry / market there are just as many well done. Probably a very few FreeBSD admins even want an influx of users from linux who could switch to freebsd because of that tool that wasn't there before but "now" it is there= . On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 4:29=E2=80=AFAM Tim Preston wr= ote: > Hi Mario, > > I may not have been clear enough in my last email. > > Docker will NEVER run on FreeBSD, because Docker is built on technologies > which only exist in the Linux kernel. > > FreeBSD cannot run Linux containers, it can only run FreeBSD jails. > > It's not because FreeBSD programmers think they're more special than Linu= x > programmers, it's just not technically possible. > > If you want to run any of the Docker images available on the internet you > can try the tooling linked by Dave, which MIGHT let you run SOME Docker > images inside a FreeBSD jail, using FreeBSD's Linux compatibility layer. > But these images really require a Linux kernel to run properly. > > A better approach, if the applications you want to run are available in > ports, or if the source code builds on FreeBSD, is to run them natively i= n > a jail using tools similar to Docker like Bastille ( > https://bastillebsd.org/) or Pot (https://github.com/bsdpot/pot). > > I hope some of this helps. > > Tim > > > On Tue, 11 Apr 2023, at 8:45 PM, Mario Marietto wrote: > > ---> If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker experience, then, > yes,use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't think there are many > FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large pragmatic people. > It's ok to use different tools in different situations. > > But home users usually are poor people. To have a good computer means > often to be lucky. I mainly use FreeBSD because I feel good when I use ma= ny > of its tools. But it often happens that I also need to be able to have so= me > different tool that I like because I tried it in a different system and I > liked it. Docker is one of those tools. Users love it,even today,but it i= s > becoming old. For sure there are good technical reasons behind this "love= ". > The development of Docker on FreeBSD stopped a lot of years ago. And the > reasons for that stop is not only caused by technical reasons,in my > opinion,but,as I said,even by a form of discrimination. The storic FreeBS= D > users have been trained using its own tools and they won't change. They > don't want to spend money to develop a new/old tool that will enrich the > tools park ? This mindset is not focused on the satisfaction of those use= rs > that could migrate or that want to try FreeBSD,after having used another > OS. It is some kind of sectarian mentality. Yes I can run a VM running > Linux,but this will waste resources on the machine. Why should I run a > whole VM if I need only to run a tool ? If the tool is not widely used,ok= ,developing > it is not worth it. But we are talking of widely used tools here and Dock= er > is one of those tools. > > On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:26=E2=80=AFPM Mario Marietto > wrote: > > For sure there are users / developers that are in the middle,like it > happens in the political area. I like this kind of person. I'm one of tho= se > people. My criticism is against those users and developers that show an > exaggerated "love" and fidelity towards a system, whether by ideology, > whether by habit, or by commercial reasons. I'm a frequent visitor to > various freebsd forums and I often read opinions radicalized on linux > technologies that should not enter the freebsd world, simply because in > Freebsd there are already excellent tools that do their job well. Yes,the= y > work well,but why not add more and different tools that which would allow > the creation of bridges between different operating systems ? > > On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:17=E2=80=AFPM Dave Cottlehuber > wrote: > > On Tue, 11 Apr 2023, at 09:44, Mario Marietto wrote: > > Tim,you are wasting your time. It seems that all of these (good) > > FreeBSD developers don't want you to use Linux technologies if you have > > chosen FreeBSD as the main OS. That's not good and it sounds like a > > discriminatory attitude. > > I think you're mis-representing the position of a lot of people here; > please don't do that. > > The fast-moving Docker.com tech has been moving towards a standards-based > "Open Container" https://opencontainers.org/ definition, and many people > have worked across the standard, the implementation, kernel, & tooling, > now in ports on FreeBSD, to make this possible. Just a few examples: > > - https://github.com/samuelkarp/runj/ > - https://github.com/dfr/ocijail/ > - https://medium.com/@dfr/oci-containers-for-freebsd-512a6df2bc85 > > It would be great to get your feedback on one of these and see what you > tried, and where it breaks with your expectations. > > While it may be possible to run many linux containers with this tooling, > systemd and other linux-specific things could be present in any container > you pull, from systemd, to filesystem requirements, and expecting all > of these to work seamlessly is unrealistic. > > If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker experience, then, yes, > use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't think there are many > FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large pragmatic people. > It's ok to use different tools in different situations. > > A+ > Dave > > > > -- > Mario. > > > > -- > Mario. > > > --=20 Mario. --0000000000006e143905f923bc02 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
---> Docker will NEVER run on FreeBSD, because Doc= ker is built on technologies which only exist in the Linux kernel.

I don't agree with this. In my humble opinion Docker can run on = FreeBSD. For sure,not using the same technology that it uses on Linux. Free= BSD does not use the kernel of Linux,so it cannot lean on it,but I'm su= re that it can lean on a lot of linux features that have already been imple= mented on FreeBSD. Maybe they should be improved. And on some other technol= ogies that can be created almost from scratch. In my opinion Docker does no= t work in FreeBSD not for technical reasons. I'm sure that the technica= l problems can be solved if there is the will,the need to overcome them. Honestly I think it doesn't happ= en because there are habits and internal beliefs in every group of OS devel= opers. I'm talking about a certain type of closed-mindedness and sense = of belonging in a group that you don't want to be scratched by tools th= at come from other types of OS cultures. Docker is not needed in FreeBSD because there are already sim= ilar tools that are working well and many systems engineers have spent time= and money to learn how to administer them. If docker were implemented, the= se system administrators would continue to use their favorite tools (jails)= , even in the industry / market there are just as many well done. Probably a very few FreeBSD admins e= ven want an influx of users from linux who could switch to freebsd because = of that tool that wasn't there before but "now" it is there.<= /span>=

On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 4:29=E2=80=AFAM Tim Preston <tim@timpreston.net> wrote:
=20 =20 =20 =20 =20
Hi Mario,

I may not have been clear enough in my last email.

Docker will NEVER run on FreeBSD, because Docker is built on technologies which only exist in the Linux kernel.

FreeBSD cannot run Linux containers, it can only run FreeBSD jails.

It's not because FreeBSD programmers think they're more speci= al than Linux programmers, it's just not technically possible.

If you want to run any of the Docker images available on the internet you can try the tooling linked by Dave, which MIGHT let you run SOME Docker images inside a FreeBSD jail, using FreeBSD's Linux compatibility layer. But these images really require a Linux kernel to run properly.

A better approach, if the applications you want to run are available in ports, or if the source code builds on FreeBSD, is to run them natively in a jail using tools similar to Docker like Bastille (http= s://bastillebsd.org/) or Pot (http= s://github.com/bsdpot/pot).

I hope some of this helps.

Tim


On Tue, 11 Apr 2023, at 8:45 PM, Mario Marietto wrote:
---> If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker experience, then, yes,use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't think there are many
FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large pragmatic people. It's ok to use different tools in different situations.

But home users usually are poor people. To have a good computer means often to be lucky. I mainly use FreeBSD because I feel good when I use many of its tools. But it often happens that I also need to be able to have some different tool that I like because I tried it in a different system and I liked it. Docker is one of those tools. Users love it,even today,but it is becoming old. For sure there are good technical reasons behind this "love". The development of Docker on FreeBS= D stopped a lot of years ago. And the reasons for that stop is not only caused by technical reasons,in my opinion,but,as I said,even by a form of discrimination. The storic FreeBSD users have been trained using its own tools and they won't change. They don't want to spend money to develop a new/old tool that will enrich the tools park ? This mindset is not focused on the satisfaction of those users that could migrate or that want to try FreeBSD,after having used another OS. It is some kind of= sectarian mentality. Yes I can run a VM running Linux,but this will waste resources on the machine. Why should I run a whole VM if I need only to run a tool ? If the tool is not widely used,ok,developing it is not worth it. But we are talking of widely used tools here and Docker is one of those tools.

On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:26=E2=80=AFPM Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com> wrote:
For sure there are users / developers that are in the middle,like it happens in the political area. I like this kind of person. I'm one of those people. My criticism is against those users and developers that show an exaggerated "love" and fidelity towards a system, whether by ideology, whether by habit, or by commercial reasons. I'm a freque= nt visitor to various freebsd forums and I often read opinions radicalized on linux technologies that should not enter the freebsd world, simply because in Freebsd there are already excellent tools that do their job well. Yes,they work well,but why not add more and different tools that which would allow the creation of bridges between different operating systems ?

On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:17=E2=80=AFPM Dave Cottlehuber <dch@skunkwerks.at> wrote:
On Tue, 11 Apr 2023, at 09:44, Mario Marietto wrote:
> Tim,you are wasting your time. It seems that all of these (good)
> FreeBSD developers don't want you to use Linux technologies if you have
> chosen FreeBSD as the main OS. That's not good and it sounds like a
> discriminatory attitude.=C2=A0 =C2=A0

I think you're mis-representing the position of a lo= t of people here;
please don't do that.

The fast-moving Docker.com tech has been moving towards a standards-based
"Open Container" https://opencontainers.org/= definition, and many people
have worked across the standard, the implementation, kernel, & tooling,
now in ports on FreeBSD, to make this possible. Just a few examples:


It would be great to get your feedback on one of these and see what you
tried, and where it breaks with your expectations.

While it may be possible to run many linux containers with this tooling,
systemd and other linux-specific things could be present in any container
you pull, from systemd, to filesystem requirements, and expecting all
of these to work seamlessly is unrealistic.

If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker experience, then, yes,
use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't thin= k there are many
FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large pragmatic people.
It's ok to use different tools in different situations.

A+
Dave


--
Mario.


--
Mario.



--
Mario.<= br>
--0000000000006e143905f923bc02-- From nobody Wed Apr 12 14:03:50 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PxPZv03C5z44q28 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 14:04:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4fe000403bae5.8daa64925366b39380d83035f0b69861@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PxPZt5F2Fz4MKF for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 14:04:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4fe000403bae5.8daa64925366b39380d83035f0b69861@email-od.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1681308247; x=1683900247; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info:subject:to:from:cc:reply-to; bh=SHsA4yrvU1DO5ibBmpadZnKeiY741gzaQbxlxcEJHpo=; b=osk+a2H83B/gvm/5vRm91oX8QYGrltdp+ILa9bxQejZnxzfEuemqKrnZlr10ho0Jh1wJ3d7/ArfEXrLLWMC56OQwaby30BzlqR+nM0uSFebM6raSYVleZ0MybgJLuYKB8b2yB4hrooTZYvGZnZcekdi5ulX9zwB1X+Rk+ux+dc4= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi4xZDRmZTAwMDQwM2JhZTUuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r1.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r1.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.191.1]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Wed, 12 Apr 2023 10:03:54 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (86-42-20-118-dynamic.b-ras1.bdt.dublin.eircom.net [86.42.20.118]) by r1.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Wed, 12 Apr 2023 10:03:53 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.95 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1pmb4h-00027y-9q; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 15:03:51 +0100 Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 15:03:50 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Mario Marietto Cc: Tim Preston , freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Docker Message-Id: <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.33; amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PxPZt5F2Fz4MKF X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 15:38:47 +0200 Mario Marietto wrote: > ---> Docker will NEVER run on FreeBSD, because Docker is built on > technologies which only exist in the Linux kernel. > > I don't agree with this. In my humble opinion Docker can run on FreeBSD. You both need to define what you mean by "run docker", or perhaps just what aspects of docker you expect to see working (or not) in FreeBSD and how. Layering Linux filesystem images from docker.io and running them is very unlikely to be feasible. Defining ocijails with Dockerfiles and running them as swarms is likely to be possible with some work. Then you can do a gap analysis and find out what needs to be done to make it run or prove that it can't be done depending mostly on what you mean by "run docker". Having done that the next question is whether the result would fill a real need. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From nobody Wed Apr 12 14:13:05 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PxPp02zmyz44qN8 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 14:13:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yw1-x1136.google.com (mail-yw1-x1136.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1136]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PxPnz0G9Lz3Jhf for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 14:13:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-yw1-x1136.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-5491fa028adso544932147b3.10 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 07:13:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1681308822; x=1683900822; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=40dAA7hF/WFNH6Z7Dl+s14BsGcttfmj5jAk3zlXWFwA=; b=Re2dHlS8Olh4M9W3sjqk+RsrFOOSC2B8J6NFszy32ZeTSqz5zNQXMNf69ZGbidQUeH eDhbEuBO+eirHM00knCfn4lntu+jVqKKfutT/YRgL+0DuPeEUhpY7p16Ie/Pot7YWtaP NoL8uaM71eClG2JI0hgWjD9ZQtOaNEYuvRK5jks+vHOYX8QNFkzK3jHXz0ILJhA8Ndc0 81ABSf4bW6rGQjOd5V+NLG7JLBGYH8tIzLfJXHUj/AIl+sQCCu36jiRPtHFFFTLUbpVZ QzUuU8HtcUuVyRAjb5jZLNpbNX06caH1S/G/iLb25HwzlrDiRuGYVnlTS+ynyzpMfBm6 oVUw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1681308822; x=1683900822; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=40dAA7hF/WFNH6Z7Dl+s14BsGcttfmj5jAk3zlXWFwA=; b=Ru+8nzL9kdSVLFiI39/sIBFDvJu1lwiijtCTvACz/yLyrErfOWs/2Tzp0CDdgXSIs7 rhQHi0pnKRK4FxBBY2a7qGDNZV/340pImalMobUG+4k3vlJNM0j1Zot40N3uUqBoINY6 G3JtogCq4s4ZbE8J2xFs0tC7YloU/j+G3DuyQN94SquTPE/BCl/4N2So4leL7Utl3YF6 8+rxt6XqUFPlUnyNaTV7luVpUaq5CNmfUHE8+CpSzZx7h7WEhvT/1uUMaC9UgLDrhje7 d6HZOtTSB1KzUUWVbC2+KfnCBVZWqJ9nmi0omTJUyoLvS0mm5tx44HaSZLADRYOjQXVJ VmlQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9dFdXmd8pQFtFYs3zBAREQfO0R+iYg/ILx9J3f1BAvS/lXSPFfA 3cWnfTH0q/StkmAhzTGiQM0SgnXQ/m0c2uUob+TpcECD/BVJqQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350YPQLI19HCzJT/CU3Q4pO5ttgegl93V5sx5FLVWD51iB9iCfmdllCWdLKLqYWpcnJUQYA3bP2rQKw6Mj72EJ/s= X-Received: by 2002:a81:b206:0:b0:54f:b56a:cd0f with SMTP id q6-20020a81b206000000b0054fb56acd0fmr427243ywh.3.1681308821690; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 07:13:41 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> From: Mario Marietto Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 16:13:05 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Docker To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: Tim Preston , freebsd-questions Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000131ff505f92437d9" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PxPnz0G9Lz3Jhf X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --000000000000131ff505f92437d9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm interested to know what you mean for "real needs",because this is the point. I imagine that you are thinking about technical needings. I don't think that the most advantages implementing docker will come from that. I think that mostly advantages could be for the user base. Mostly for those users that come from linux or other OS and that already use docker and kubernetes. I don't think those users are a small number. Those users could jump to FreeBSD if Docker / Kubernetes are implemented in FreeBSD. This could be the straw that broke the camel's back. You may argue that the jails are working already great and that they should use them. I could argue that it's not a tolerant behavior to force them to learn a new technology. So,in the end I ask to myself and to you : FreeBSD needs to grow in terms of community ? Does it need to be populated by a greater number of users that will come from another OS base community ? On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 4:04=E2=80=AFPM Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 15:38:47 +0200 > Mario Marietto wrote: > > > ---> Docker will NEVER run on FreeBSD, because Docker is built on > > technologies which only exist in the Linux kernel. > > > > I don't agree with this. In my humble opinion Docker can run on FreeBSD= . > > You both need to define what you mean by "run docker", or perhaps > just what aspects of docker you expect to see working (or not) in FreeBSD > and how. Layering Linux filesystem images from docker.io and running them > is > very unlikely to be feasible. Defining ocijails with Dockerfiles and > running them as swarms is likely to be possible with some work. > > Then you can do a gap analysis and find out what needs to be done > to make it run or prove that it can't be done depending mostly on what yo= u > mean by "run docker". > > Having done that the next question is whether the result would fi= ll > a real need. > > -- > Steve O'Hara-Smith > --=20 Mario. --000000000000131ff505f92437d9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm interested to know what you mean for "real ne= eds",because this is the point. I imagine that you are thinking about = technical needings. I don't think that the most advantages implementing= docker will come from that. I think that mostly advantages could be for th= e user base. Mostly for those users that come from linux or other OS and th= at already use docker and kubernetes. I don't think those users are a s= mall number. Those users could jump to FreeBSD if Docker / Kubernetes are i= mplemented in FreeBSD. This could be the straw that broke the camel's back. You may argue that th= e jails are working already great and that they should use them. I could ar= gue that it's not a tolerant b= ehavior to force them to learn a new technology. So,in the end I ask to mys= elf and to you : FreeBSD needs to grow in terms of community ? Does it need= to be populated by a greater number of users that will come from another O= S base community ?



On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 4:04=E2=80=AFPM Steve O'Hara-Smith <steve@sohara.org> wrote:
On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 15:38:47 = +0200
Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com> wrote:

> ---> Docker will NEVER run on FreeBSD, because Docker is built on > technologies which only exist in the Linux kernel.
>
> I don't agree with this. In my humble opinion Docker can run on Fr= eeBSD.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 You both need to define what you mean by "= run docker", or perhaps
just what aspects of docker you expect to see working (or not) in FreeBSD and how. Layering Linux filesystem images from docker.io and running them is
very unlikely to be feasible. Defining ocijails with Dockerfiles and
running them as swarms is likely to be possible with some work.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Then you can do a gap analysis and find out wha= t needs to be done
to make it run or prove that it can't be done depending mostly on what = you
mean by "run docker".

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Having done that the next question is whether t= he result would fill
a real need.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith <steve@sohara.org>


--
Mario.
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Wed, 12 Apr 2023 14:28:05 +0000 Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 14:28:04 +0000 (UTC) From: Paul Pathiakis To: Steve O'Hara-Smith , Mario Marietto Cc: Tim Preston , freebsd-questions Message-ID: <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> Subject: Re: Docker List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2770962_1266966976.1681309684070" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21365 YMailNorrin X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PxQ6b23D6z3r2y X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N ------=_Part_2770962_1266966976.1681309684070 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I believe the simplest thing would be to wrap jails or iocage in an interf= ace that looks like and behaves Docker-like. Many people these days don't care what's under the hood.=C2=A0 All they car= e about is familiarity of interface (GUI) It would be interesting to see the resource utilization and efficiency of '= Docker' versus Jails/Iocage. :) Paul On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 09:15:24 AM GMT-5, Mario Marietto wrote: =20 =20 I'm interested to know what you mean for "real needs",because this is the = point. I imagine that you are thinking about technical needings. I don't th= ink that the most advantages implementing docker will come from that. I thi= nk that mostly advantages could be for the user base. Mostly for those user= s that come from linux or other OS and that already use docker and kubernet= es. I don't think those users are a small number. Those users could jump to= FreeBSD if Docker / Kubernetes are implemented in FreeBSD. This could be t= he straw that broke the camel's back. You may argue that the jails are work= ing already great and that they should use them. I could argue that it's no= t a tolerant behavior to force them to learn a new technology. So,in the en= d I ask to myself and to you : FreeBSD needs to grow in terms of community = ? Does it need to be populated by a greater number of users that will come = from another OS base community ?=20 On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 4:04=E2=80=AFPM Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 15:38:47 +0200 Mario Marietto wrote: > ---> Docker will NEVER run on FreeBSD, because Docker is built on > technologies which only exist in the Linux kernel. >=20 > I don't agree with this. In my humble opinion Docker can run on FreeBSD. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 You both need to define what you mean by "run d= ocker", or perhaps just what aspects of docker you expect to see working (or not) in FreeBSD and how. Layering Linux filesystem images from docker.io and running them i= s very unlikely to be feasible. Defining ocijails with Dockerfiles and running them as swarms is likely to be possible with some work. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Then you can do a gap analysis and find out wha= t needs to be done to make it run or prove that it can't be done depending mostly on what you mean by "run docker". =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Having done that the next question is whether t= he result would fill a real need. --=20 Steve O'Hara-Smith --=20 Mario. =20 ------=_Part_2770962_1266966976.1681309684070 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I believe the simplest thing= would be to wrap jails or iocage in an interface that looks like and behav= es Docker-like.

Many people these days don't care what's = under the hood.  All they care about is familiarity of interface (GUI)=

It would be interesting to see the resource utilization = and efficiency of 'Docker' versus Jails/Iocage. :)

Paul

=20
=20
On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 09:15:24 AM GMT-5, Mari= o Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com> wrote:


I'm interested to know what you mean for "real needs",because this is t= he point. I imagine that you are thinking about technical needings. I don't= think that the most advantages implementing docker will come from that. I = think that mostly advantages could be for the user base. Mostly for those u= sers that come from linux or other OS and that already use docker and kuber= netes. I don't think those users are a small number. Those users could jump= to FreeBSD if Docker / Kubernetes are implemented in FreeBSD. This could b= e the straw= that broke the camel's back. You may argue that the jails are worki= ng already great and that they should use them. I could argue that it's not= a tolerant= behavior to force them to learn a new technology. So,in the end I ask to m= yself and to you : FreeBSD needs to grow in terms of community ? Does it ne= ed to be populated by a greater number of users that will come from another= OS base community ? 
=


On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 4:04=E2=80=AFPM Stev= e O'Hara-Smith <steve@sohara.org> wrote:
On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 15:38:47 +0200
Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com> wrote:
> ---> Docker will NEVER run on FreeBSD, because Docker is built on > technologies which only exist in the Linux kernel.
>
> I don't agree with this. In my humble opinion Docker can run on FreeBS= D.

        You both need to define what you mean by "run d= ocker", or perhaps
just what aspects of docker you expect to see working (or not) in FreeBSD and how. Layering Linux filesystem images from docker.io and runnin= g them is
very unlikely to be feasible. Defining ocijails with Dockerfiles and
running them as swarms is likely to be possible with some work.

        Then you can do a gap analysis and find out wha= t needs to be done
to make it run or prove that it can't be done depending mostly on what you<= br clear=3D"none"> mean by "run docker".

        Having done that the next question is whether t= he result would fill
a real need.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith <steve@sohara.org>


--
Mari= o.
------=_Part_2770962_1266966976.1681309684070-- From nobody Wed Apr 12 14:30:39 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PxQ9h3YzQz44rpK for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 14:30:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4fe0004062c8b.6e2d4f3676a35454006accb9d2825ab2@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PxQ9h37Pqz3v5J for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 14:30:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4fe0004062c8b.6e2d4f3676a35454006accb9d2825ab2@email-od.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1681309848; x=1683901848; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info:subject:to:from:cc:reply-to; bh=a3pwx7WNfuWKJ/12fX/9VSVCkfAIgKTo8mjkXbCPaf8=; b=OpPz/1//jX2LMA9Qqru8EMIm3LohulK0+Tqh4Hg9hx2Z/E8rBIhX8D9Qbs/hzUQrOuoDtJPH1K2u6L0n4QLpQDLwbNLLkzsssDSrkfGDphaJ5Xk2kP2eL1fCTk/uG5f5O5P9hIocknoEI7wJjWYJT++Xte9FWQaHTTwJTV8hLAM= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi4xZDRmZTAwMDQwNjJjOGIuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r2.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r2.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.191.2]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Wed, 12 Apr 2023 10:30:42 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (86-42-20-118-dynamic.b-ras1.bdt.dublin.eircom.net [86.42.20.118]) by r2.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Wed, 12 Apr 2023 10:30:41 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.95 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1pmbUd-000ASJ-G4; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 15:30:39 +0100 Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 15:30:39 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Mario Marietto Cc: Tim Preston , freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Docker Message-Id: <20230412153039.bb0598c1f8b050ea8d4f40b9@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.33; amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PxQ9h37Pqz3v5J X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 16:13:05 +0200 Mario Marietto wrote: > I'm interested to know what you mean for "real needs", I mean real problems that are solved by having a FreeBSD implementation of docker. IOW what would people use it for. For example one goal to be able to use the off-the-shelf images available on docker.io (or other linux images) with docker and/or kubernetes so as to be able to migrate application stacks to a FreeBSD base. There's a *lot* of work to be done to achieve this mostly in the Linux emulation layer. I rather suspect that this is what most people expect of docker and I can certainly see how it could be used in real world applications and make FreeBSD an alternative to Linux as a host OS. Another goal is to be able to create layered FreeBSD based container images from Dockerfiles and share (publicly or with a limited group) them in the same way as Linux container layers are then that should be rather less work - and ocijail seems to be a starting point. Is this something people want to do ? Does Docker provide any benefits over Nomad/iocage/cbsd for this use ? Is there enough interest to create a critical mass of images ? -- Steve O'Hara-Smith Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/ From nobody Wed Apr 12 14:52:14 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PxQg82n4zz44ttf for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 14:52:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yb1-xb30.google.com (mail-yb1-xb30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b30]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PxQg80YwBz4cBr for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 14:52:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-yb1-xb30.google.com with SMTP id y69so18901243ybe.2 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 07:52:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1681311170; x=1683903170; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=2TvlhSVB2se8FnexY3t0A5h+f9qN7hx03Xkm1WTz7DU=; b=UVBPJeh1enpckEbZk24tGbeuNV6MT+fess7xlkmDSaVbtPfJnL/kJSZ3/XO2ednRjC VczqXfPPplD1hDzvkCDn1eyzFX6n2MDttnKzlx2vDIGDaBvjlmKsxNT5lvR6qk/vzZBj tyI9oKFGpH/wQaV//RDRCmEp05U2bqRjHWm7sKucpPVK4xrbD2bTSmdgoSFAMqL1N/0s TwMveLFqRyNW4IFinUwlOO05ALc/Vik2MKvcYbdKEulFtg2LuXQGRQNkq30bEQxaSvyc bCAuFa+fEB21b5RYWdin1sw6wbQezoLgH8mKxrr3zwTBCiqGMTpxyVK+89+3e+PHdDyE L5wg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1681311170; x=1683903170; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=2TvlhSVB2se8FnexY3t0A5h+f9qN7hx03Xkm1WTz7DU=; b=GtD3Uis1Nyhznw+ZNHmRV5L6qFAZd+qEmfENtdyADjZXVL//v9qxIyqQVqpZrAqpQb oXLE/f/HMkQHKpQxsba8j+rGa0N55KtUc7ZxYH4k7irhkilxH8IzDvxRGHqXyJry4s62 jZVEwqHwsH+wsFeebAv/fduyXbDBMnGgkDnzGDtb6MrwqKc1mqdTPH9O5EfYpjgvrdbU O2fxGujMY6eJ3BV0KHawat4LDXwllFb3UUMduDkXO5jUqgZZgw+DNj+Ex01OgAhEdcIc LHlsEh6gONJ6gXaImf6Rei5PQvTwlcWCn8TDdOJ5WIhKPlLlhLMkuPdc+t1TZONO3J2p /acw== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9fmNG1tDETIDO9Z4PB+o7vhGBE8tS5xSsTrPNoGOMWzMQVY2N3T ELtByfjt9YMocYD+3M5hUs9wmHLsEWy75OVXc8rBD0SWlVIZs/Ke X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350bF3vhCEM03E/KZL/Alrf3Hx0d+yAKfbEyA1MTmlc5rEGLsOxot2+ojh/g30YpZJzLgmIVHfMpC96CadT4heNg= X-Received: by 2002:a25:d64c:0:b0:b8f:1d87:5948 with SMTP id n73-20020a25d64c000000b00b8f1d875948mr1830784ybg.10.1681311170395; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 07:52:50 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <20230412153039.bb0598c1f8b050ea8d4f40b9@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20230412153039.bb0598c1f8b050ea8d4f40b9@sohara.org> From: Mario Marietto Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 16:52:14 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Docker To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: Tim Preston , freebsd-questions Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000011859805f924c30b" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PxQg80YwBz4cBr X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --00000000000011859805f924c30b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----> I believe the simplest thing would be to wrap jails or iocage in an interface that looks like and behaves Docker-like. Come on man. It's not only a matter of graphical interface. A lot of users may want to use docker on another OS because they already have learnt how to use it,so the commands used in Linux should be the same when it is ported on another OS like FreeBSD. And since there are a lot of images on the internet,they also want to reuse them. So the ported docker should be able to reuse those images ---> Many people these days don't care what's under the hood. All they care about is familiarity of interface (GUI) could be true for the newbies (not very experienced users). Anyway,if you want to "copy" only the graphical part the project will die because as I said the ported docker should work as close as possible to the original one. We can't forget how hard it is to change habits. ---> There's a *lot* of work to be done to achieve this mostly in the Linux emulation layer. I can imagine. So,maybe this is not the way to go. ---> Is there enough interest to create a critical mass of images ? maybe. If it's easier and intuitive. If there are a lot of docker images already created it means that Docker reached the goal to become a tool for the masses. On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 4:30=E2=80=AFPM Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 16:13:05 +0200 > Mario Marietto wrote: > > > I'm interested to know what you mean for "real needs", > > I mean real problems that are solved by having a FreeBSD > implementation of docker. IOW what would people use it for. > > For example one goal to be able to use the off-the-shelf images > available on docker.io (or other linux images) with docker and/or > kubernetes so as to be able to migrate application stacks to a FreeBSD > base. > There's a *lot* of work to be done to achieve this mostly in the Linux > emulation layer. I rather suspect that this is what most people expect of > docker and I can certainly see how it could be used in real world > applications and make FreeBSD an alternative to Linux as a host OS. > > Another goal is to be able to create layered FreeBSD based > container images from Dockerfiles and share (publicly or with a limited > group) them in the same way as Linux container layers are then that shoul= d > be rather less work - and ocijail seems to be a starting point. Is this > something people want to do ? Does Docker provide any benefits over > Nomad/iocage/cbsd for this use ? Is there enough interest to create a > critical mass of images ? > > -- > Steve O'Hara-Smith > Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/ > --=20 Mario. --00000000000011859805f924c30b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
----> I believe the simplest thing wou= ld be to wrap jails or iocage in an interface that looks like and behaves D= ocker-like.

Com= e on man. It's not only a matter of graphical interface. A lot of users= may want to use docker on another OS because they already have learnt how = to use it,so the commands used in Linux should be the same when it is porte= d on another OS like FreeBSD. And since there are a lot of images on the in= ternet,they also want to reuse them. So the ported docker should be able to= reuse those images

-= --> Many people these days don't care what's under the hood.=C2= =A0 All they care about is familiarity of interface (GUI)
<= br>
could be true for the newbies (not very experienced users). A= nyway,if you want to "copy" only the graphical part the project w= ill die because as I said the ported docker should work as close as possibl= e to the original one. We can't forget how hard it is to change habits.=

=C2=A0---> There's a *lot* of work to= be done to achieve this mostly in the Linux emulation layer.
I can imagine. So,maybe this is not the way to go.

---> Is there enough interest to create a critical mas= s of images ?

maybe. If it's easier and intuit= ive. If there are a lot of docker images already created it means that Dock= er reached the goal to become a tool for the masses.

On Wed, Apr = 12, 2023 at 4:30=E2=80=AFPM Steve O'Hara-Smith <steve@sohara.org> wrote:
On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 16:13:05 +0200
Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm interested to know what you mean for "real needs",
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I mean real problems that are solved by having = a FreeBSD
implementation of docker. IOW what would people use it for.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 For example one goal to be able to use the off-= the-shelf images
available on docker.io (or other linux images) with docker and/or
kubernetes so as to be able to migrate application stacks to a FreeBSD base= .
There's a *lot* of work to be done to achieve this mostly in the Linux<= br> emulation layer. I rather suspect that this is what most people expect of docker and I can certainly see how it could be used in real world
applications and make FreeBSD an alternative to Linux as a host OS.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Another goal is to be able to create layered Fr= eeBSD based
container images from Dockerfiles and share (publicly or with a limited
group) them in the same way as Linux container layers are then that should<= br> be rather less work - and ocijail seems to be a starting point. Is this
something people want to do ? Does Docker provide any benefits over
Nomad/iocage/cbsd for this use ? Is there enough interest to create a
critical mass of images ?

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/


--
Mario.
--00000000000011859805f924c30b-- From nobody Wed Apr 12 14:52:52 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PxQgY24z6z44v0l for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 14:53:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4fe000406e500.198493973664081064b1b92c082d8af5@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PxQgX2HNPz4d64 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 14:53:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4fe000406e500.198493973664081064b1b92c082d8af5@email-od.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1681311192; x=1683903192; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info:subject:to:from:cc:reply-to; bh=e+QgrcfnBqz4CpHfdD8arkq0GeNMTOX46qft0YhiAn0=; b=qrYTRCuOUY6zNgXSsvEX8bVtTBws1EjorsGxN6zMU4XwcOxpohp1S6xXggvMoYSwWbz8endz8LdiqeDO4nBmoHkEHFXFUbSgSNRNGxY5t8d6qTyg45ecCkULfxypOHX7xdBOqPyizeRcNQXACEk+V+XFctbzfyYNIWzWY/J1wHU= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi4xZDRmZTAwMDQwNmU1MDAuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r2.us-west-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r2.us-west-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.190.2]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Wed, 12 Apr 2023 10:53:01 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (86-42-20-118-dynamic.b-ras1.bdt.dublin.eircom.net [86.42.20.118]) by r2.us-west-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Wed, 12 Apr 2023 10:52:54 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.95 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1pmbq8-000HE0-O8; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 15:52:52 +0100 Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 15:52:52 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Paul Pathiakis Cc: Mario Marietto , Tim Preston , freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Docker Message-Id: <20230412155252.5e38ea4728bd52dc798852fc@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.33; amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PxQgX2HNPz4d64 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 14:28:04 +0000 (UTC) Paul Pathiakis wrote: > I believe the simplest thing would be to wrap jails or iocage in an > interface that looks like and behaves Docker-like. Many people these days > don't care what's under the hood.  All they care about is familiarity of > interface (GUI) Docker is many things - the UI the least important. Docker is a mechanism for creating container images from text descriptions in Dockerfiles each of which defines an overlay to be applied to a base image (either an OS image or one defined in a Dockerfile). A common use for this mechanism is to assemble servers by picking an off-the-shelf image with the right service(s) and building a custom configuration/application layer on top of it. Rinse, repeat until every element of a stack is defined and get swarm or kubernetes to deploy and manage it. This use depends strongly on the rich public library of application layers. In order to have this in FreeBSD we'd either have to be able to use the Linux images directly or we'd need a similar library of FreeBSD images (OCI compliant if we want kubernetes) - which is an awful lot of playing catch up. Another use for this mechanism is to assemble complex application stacks (such as development environments) so that they can be used easily. Many do this sort of thing with iocage, nomad, or base system jails and ansible or puppet or ... Docker is almost certainly more convenient than any of these. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/ From nobody Wed Apr 12 15:13:25 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PxR7b5Cg8z44wq5 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 15:14:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yb1-xb2f.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PxR7b2hMvz3wjR for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 15:14:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-yb1-xb2f.google.com with SMTP id u13so12222738ybu.5 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 08:14:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1681312442; x=1683904442; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=V3dGHAAmm1flDoMyB5IhfsiOl7Hm3GeocaML8eEZEnU=; b=cELq/fhxAULpgWk8fKIZ+6fovVIj7jhqO7+zaqybYh14pKB4scOlSQtoVrgjLujcrF R0ma/j2xhN2YhECckL1Y2d9IPloyGtSk17wZYQ5Pp1VeWobp7X1DbORqvkQ9ZX6s/JqH NaRH5qfw3nNMXOkNbynreJ49F1TiJsh4wHt2brNW2W4eLHLkT9vm/RACWMS08XRlD55F b7lN5U2wIBa4fz1g4QvKsGS/YS0UnE8BOHw4QOUo2gkxD+OUpLHFaNUQp/ev+d2RT5zf uDsUipgmGvwKNrgZMyKENcANHBCEY3DKqmKEDjYCU7DTawVTabhzwRpIH4bbpVteFvKF om8Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1681312442; x=1683904442; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=V3dGHAAmm1flDoMyB5IhfsiOl7Hm3GeocaML8eEZEnU=; b=4aIh8mQGVWpZZjBUsuwYMApN35zBRC2eqMmqcqYxhFKPhY0BYB/LONfAKL1gq5qBQi +NvLAoeTETugh44ckhtScslTq+bPFvzHG/g4PlJa8KDYoCYh6C6mVMnEOrNTC27Md7dr GH+yZfHCzoapG2rvoBGlEjZwePzxy65ajfgySpBvgy4Q4ho9/A1Hp56SPz8VPNhtEh5q Jd1jvbtQxBqeuCpiZknVEzqdF+ivh93UpCU/Xb6SM4EcEM0u1keun2r9TDr79EJVzCYP EHK5egaNeLsoBqZ4ywmNnwaMgAgF0XXEfQGZaRymxvRRJ3JuK1//8xOH48wf+PK1YpX7 d+4A== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9dO+AR6KoEwgyXUlqnRaELu5dRcrrkecnREPofTH+rBEeafunF+ Po/dU6KPQJsL4zApsb0I116kCf6br+Wlav/0ID4aF6W+YEInN6VO X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350bS6rSFFF7Zbc/nkSJZJh1y56xDq5hQL4mfvRDUtEygsGplqWGKtZNUoT+CqrbctfehWsru3LpllJZm6hpT7KQ= X-Received: by 2002:a25:42d3:0:b0:b8f:467c:10eb with SMTP id p202-20020a2542d3000000b00b8f467c10ebmr1098738yba.5.1681312442369; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 08:14:02 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> <20230412155252.5e38ea4728bd52dc798852fc@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20230412155252.5e38ea4728bd52dc798852fc@sohara.org> From: Mario Marietto Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 17:13:25 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Docker To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: Paul Pathiakis , Tim Preston , freebsd-questions Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e24b8e05f9250ec9" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PxR7b2hMvz3wjR X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --000000000000e24b8e05f9250ec9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A lot of years ago I found this interesting project : http://www.colinux.org/ I've been always fascinated by it : *Cooperative Linux* is the first working *free* and *open source* method for optimally running Linux on Microsoft Windows natively. More generally, *Cooperative Linux* (short-named coLinux) is a port of the Linux kernel that allows it to run cooperatively alongside another operating system on a single machine. For instance, it allows one to *freely* run Linux on Windows 2000/XP/Vista/7, *without* using a commercial PC virtualization software such as VMware , in a way which is much more optimal than using any general purpose PC virtualization software. How could it be hard to create something like this ? I mean,a cooperative kernel between the linux kernel and the freebsd kernel. A sort of Linux kernel that will run alongside the FreeBSD processes. Maybe even integrated within the (centos) linux emulation layer that already exists under FreeBSD. In the end,what's missing on the LEL is a kernel. On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 4:53=E2=80=AFPM Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 14:28:04 +0000 (UTC) > Paul Pathiakis wrote: > > > I believe the simplest thing would be to wrap jails or iocage in an > > interface that looks like and behaves Docker-like. Many people these da= ys > > don't care what's under the hood. All they care about is familiarity o= f > > interface (GUI) > > Docker is many things - the UI the least important. > > Docker is a mechanism for creating container images from text > descriptions in Dockerfiles each of which defines an overlay to be applie= d > to a base image (either an OS image or one defined in a Dockerfile). > > A common use for this mechanism is to assemble servers by picking > an > off-the-shelf image with the right service(s) and building a custom > configuration/application layer on top of it. Rinse, repeat until every > element of a stack is defined and get swarm or kubernetes to deploy and > manage it. This use depends strongly on the rich public library of > application layers. In order to have this in FreeBSD we'd either have to = be > able to use the Linux images directly or we'd need a similar library of > FreeBSD images (OCI compliant if we want kubernetes) - which is an awful > lot > of playing catch up. > > Another use for this mechanism is to assemble complex application > stacks (such as development environments) so that they can be used easily= . > Many do this sort of thing with iocage, nomad, or base system jails and > ansible or puppet or ... Docker is almost certainly more convenient than > any > of these. > > -- > Steve O'Hara-Smith > Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/ > --=20 Mario. --000000000000e24b8e05f9250ec9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A lot of years ago I found this interesting project := http://www.colinux.org/
=
I've been always fascinated by it :

Cooperative Linux is the first working free and open sourc= e method for optimally running Linux on Microsoft Windows natively. Mo= re generally, Cooperative Linux (short-named coLinux) is a port of t= he Linux kernel that allows it to run= cooperatively alongside another operating system on a single machine. For = instance, it allows one to freely run Linux on Windows 2000/XP/Vista= /7, without using a commercial PC virtualization software such as VMware, in a way which is much more optimal than using any general purpose PC=20 virtualization software.

How could it be hard to create something lik= e this ? I mean,a cooperative kernel between the linux kernel and the freeb= sd kernel. A sort of Linux kernel that will run alongside the FreeBSD proce= sses. Maybe even integrated within the (centos) linux emulation layer that = already exists under FreeBSD. In the end,what's missing on the LEL is a= kernel.

=C2=A0


On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 4:53=E2=80= =AFPM Steve O'Hara-Smith <steve@= sohara.org> wrote:
On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 14:28:04 +0000 (UTC)
Paul Pathiakis <pathiaki2@yahoo.com> wrote:

>=C2=A0 I believe the simplest thing would be to wrap jails or iocage in= an
> interface that looks like and behaves Docker-like. Many people these d= ays
> don't care what's under the hood.=C2=A0 All they care about is= familiarity of
> interface (GUI)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Docker is many things - the UI the least import= ant.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Docker is a mechanism for creating container im= ages from text
descriptions in Dockerfiles each of which defines an overlay to be applied<= br> to a base image (either an OS image or one defined in a Dockerfile).

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 A common use for this mechanism is to assemble = servers by picking an
off-the-shelf image with the right service(s) and building a custom
configuration/application layer on top of it. Rinse, repeat until every
element of a stack is defined and get swarm or kubernetes to deploy and
manage it. This use depends strongly on the rich public library of
application layers. In order to have this in FreeBSD we'd either have t= o be
able to use the Linux images directly or we'd need a similar library of=
FreeBSD images (OCI compliant if we want kubernetes) - which is an awful lo= t
of playing catch up.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Another use for this mechanism is to assemble c= omplex application
stacks (such as development environments) so that they can be used easily.<= br> Many do this sort of thing with iocage, nomad, or base system jails and
ansible or puppet or ... Docker is almost certainly more convenient than an= y
of these.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/


--
Mario.
--000000000000e24b8e05f9250ec9-- From nobody Wed Apr 12 15:26:28 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PxRRX0FNSz44xgk for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 15:27:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-database@pp.dyndns.biz) Received: from keymaster.home (ns1.xn--wesstrm-f1a.se [81.4.102.176]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "keymaster.home", Issuer "keymaster.home" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PxRRV3lgWz4Nsf for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 15:27:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-database@pp.dyndns.biz) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd-database@pp.dyndns.biz has no SPF policy when checking 81.4.102.176) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd-database@pp.dyndns.biz; dmarc=none Received: from [192.168.254.0] ([192.168.254.0]) by keymaster.home (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTP id 33CFQTGT019722 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 17:26:29 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from freebsd-database@pp.dyndns.biz) Message-ID: <05ba770b-cd03-2ee9-3b3c-8dfcd1ea4fdc@pp.dyndns.biz> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 17:26:28 +0200 List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.9.0 Content-Language: en-GB To: FreeBSD Questions From: =?UTF-8?Q?Morgan_Wesstr=c3=b6m?= Subject: What is the proper way to handle the wireguard module now that it's part of the base system? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.96 / 15.00]; HFILTER_HELO_IP_A(1.00)[keymaster.home]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.99)[0.987]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.88)[-0.877]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.35)[-0.352]; HFILTER_HELO_NORES_A_OR_MX(0.30)[keymaster.home]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:198203, ipnet:81.4.100.0/22, country:NL]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[pp.dyndns.biz]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PxRRV3lgWz4Nsf X-Spamd-Bar: ++ X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N I just upgraded to FreeBSD 13.2-RELEASE and made sure to deinstall the net/wireguard-kmod package before I rebooted. I had to force deinstall it since it's still a dependency to net/wireguard. No problems though - VPN-tunnel is up with the base kernel module and seems to be working just fine. A few questions though: 1) What happens if there are two identically named modules on the system - one in /boot/kernel and the other in /boot/modules? Which one gets priority and can this be controlled? 2) Depending on the answer to question 1, should I perhaps have left net/wireguard-kmod in place? If not, shouldn't there be a check in the Makefile for net/wireguard so it doesn't pull in net/wireguard-kmod as a dependency on FreeBSD 13.2? Regards Morgan Wesström From nobody Wed Apr 12 15:58:22 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PxS7C1PxJz450vj for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 15:58:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@gushi.org) Received: from prime.gushi.org (prime.gushi.org [IPv6:2620:137:6000:10::142]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "prime.gushi.org", Issuer "RapidSSL Global TLS RSA4096 SHA256 2022 CA1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PxS796Nh2z4NW6 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 15:58:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@gushi.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gushi.org header.s=prime2014 header.b=NbpnWkkE; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@gushi.org designates 2620:137:6000:10::142 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@gushi.org; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gushi.org Received: from smtpclient.apple (vpn-us.f.root-servers.org [149.20.8.9]) (authenticated bits=0) by prime.gushi.org (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 33CFwXFg022678 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 08:58:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@gushi.org) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 prime.gushi.org 33CFwXFg022678 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gushi.org; s=prime2014; t=1681315114; bh=mJS4IzNW1Q4HbtPPOBm+UzZclyhIDAgdTbxPsKpRw+c=; h=From:Subject:Date:To; z=From:=20"Dan=20Mahoney=20(Ports)"=20|Subject:= 20filesystem=20labels?|Date:=20Wed,=2012=20Apr=202023=2008:58:22=2 0-0700|To:=20questions@freebsd.org; b=NbpnWkkEmW37DM8sIE+1tRkJvk80ahC6pvexBWqVOr5Z5fH/IoAvaM3LzB9mo/GMs LbzjRaMVv77xblkbKFb3d+qinmbgyzCfwH9XFoBc50dhTQBbPXlzcf3Q7pyPsugVWs n9cZEzFrn9HT/rv84ge9MakPF9qA+ptU5QIaXtiYSuURhpokn5ZO744KzarurRbwap rHgIfQANvIZuJ7thiy4hM/5hEsZwL8bio/Nmmi87sorwZh2q8CRai9z+DjcTvkmHdR y9iyM0Xam8RD747enDwt1w0GmOll23X0qgod1MjH8XSPeg0gdzCsYHl4/ZqAqQ8rGj AgoDWiXHhc6KA== X-Authentication-Warning: prime.gushi.org: Host vpn-us.f.root-servers.org [149.20.8.9] claimed to be smtpclient.apple From: "Dan Mahoney (Ports)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7CC8AF5D-51F2-4EA6-A555-36B567872914" List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3731.500.231\)) Subject: filesystem labels? Message-Id: Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 08:58:22 -0700 To: questions@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.500.231) X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.4 (prime.gushi.org [149.20.68.142]); Wed, 12 Apr 2023 15:58:43 +0000 (UTC) X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.20 / 15.00]; DWL_DNSWL_MED(-2.00)[gushi.org:dkim]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; RCVD_DKIM_ARC_DNSWL_MED(-0.50)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gushi.org,none]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gushi.org:s=prime2014]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[2620:137:6000:10::142:from]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:393507, ipnet:2620:137:6000::/44, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gushi.org:+]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PxS796Nh2z4NW6 X-Spamd-Bar: ----- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --Apple-Mail=_7CC8AF5D-51F2-4EA6-A555-36B567872914 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hey all, I find that the handbook mentions glabel labels, but several other = places say don=E2=80=99t use them. I managed to apply a gpt label to my new partition that I created using = only =E2=80=9Cgpart=E2=80=9D=20 The handbook mentions glabel labels, and tunefs labels, but says nothing = about GPT labels. I=E2=80=99ve seen some more complete posts on the forums (i.e. = https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/how-to-label-partitions.64380/) but = they still don=E2=80=99t show the full picture of what labels are usable = where, by what and which. Is there a good primer people know of of what the various types are, = fully, which are supported in fstab, which work with ZFS only, and the = like? Or should I just keep on using /dev/daX in fstab? (This only came up, = as I=E2=80=99m moving virtual disk images around, and renumbering = happens automatically when I delete one from a running vm), so labels = are useful in this case.= --Apple-Mail=_7CC8AF5D-51F2-4EA6-A555-36B567872914 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hey = all,

I find that the handbook mentions glabel labels, = but several other places say don=E2=80=99t use = them.

I managed to apply a gpt label to my new = partition that I created using only = =E2=80=9Cgpart=E2=80=9D 

The handbook = mentions glabel labels, and tunefs labels, but says nothing about GPT = labels.

I=E2=80=99ve seen some more complete = posts on the forums (i.e. https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/how-to-label-partitions.64380/) = but they still don=E2=80=99t show the full picture of what labels are = usable where, by what and which.

Is there a = good primer people know of of what the various types are, fully, which = are supported in fstab, which work with ZFS only, and the = like?

Or should I just keep on using /dev/daX = in fstab?  (This only came up, as I=E2=80=99m moving virtual disk = images around, and renumbering happens automatically when I delete one = from a running vm), so labels are useful in this = case.
= --Apple-Mail=_7CC8AF5D-51F2-4EA6-A555-36B567872914-- From nobody Wed Apr 12 16:13:46 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PxSSh2pwTz4522G for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 16:13:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) Received: from soth.netfence.it (mailserver.netfence.it [78.134.96.152]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mailserver.netfence.it", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PxSSf4W14z3jMf for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 16:13:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=netfence.it header.s=202304 header.b=aFvYAPMN; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ml@netfence.it designates 78.134.96.152 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ml@netfence.it; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=netfence.it Received: from [10.1.2.18] (mailserver.netfence.it [78.134.96.152]) (authenticated bits=0) by soth.netfence.it (8.17.1/8.17.1) with ESMTPSA id 33CGDkaq042264 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 18:13:46 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=netfence.it; s=202304; t=1681316031; bh=9cqPsKPnh46I1Q0uCMahX4wKIRgt3dANa9NVxMQrgrI=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=aFvYAPMN9NCNSm1yNgPC3QyNfYF9NuFD9rJbb3Lxeh6d7tS6naFetsz01fxhotUb2 TfksAzKBi6Df3/wgPd0/2MNnGaaiEPnobRO1QrXGKYZUSVGC/15B0UIuKEyHqDE8GC jiPE3AZMThHGy3AbHNuUVF5NXw3FD0ReQvNqCd9k= X-Authentication-Warning: soth.netfence.it: Host mailserver.netfence.it [78.134.96.152] claimed to be [10.1.2.18] Message-ID: <105b447c-05f5-6b6b-8da3-be1044ac69cc@netfence.it> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 18:13:46 +0200 List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.10.0 Subject: Re: filesystem labels? Content-Language: en-US To: questions@freebsd.org References: From: Andrea Venturoli In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.86 X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.999]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[netfence.it,none]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:78.134.96.152:c]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[netfence.it:s=202304]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:35612, ipnet:78.134.0.0/17, country:IT]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[netfence.it:+]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PxSSf4W14z3jMf X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On 4/12/23 17:58, Dan Mahoney (Ports) wrote: > Hey all, Hello. Can't answer the rest, but... > Or should I just keep on using /dev/daX in fstab? There's nothing wrong with using /dev/daX. You can however use labals when they give you some advantage. E.g. I label backup disks, so I know when a "backup" disk is plugged in (vs a generic one) and possibly run the backup automatically. If the disk is UFS, I use UFS labels for that (newfs -L ...), as I often don't even have a partition table. If it's ZFS I use GPT labels. bye av. 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To: =?UTF-8?Q?Morgan_Wesstr=C3=B6m?= Cc: FreeBSD Questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PxXpk26bQz3DcY X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 at 11:28, Morgan Wesstr=C3=B6m wrote: > > I just upgraded to FreeBSD 13.2-RELEASE and made sure to deinstall the > net/wireguard-kmod package before I rebooted. I had to force deinstall it= since > it's still a dependency to net/wireguard. No problems though - VPN-tunnel= is up > with the base kernel module and seems to be working just fine. A few ques= tions > though: > > 1) What happens if there are two identically named modules on the system = - one > in /boot/kernel and the other in /boot/modules? Which one gets priority a= nd can > this be controlled? You can check the kern.module_path sysctl. By default it looks like /boot/kernel (or whatever kernel you boot) comes before /boot/modules. I think (but haven't checked) that everything would have been fine if wireguard-kmod was still installed. > 2) Depending on the answer to question 1, should I perhaps have left > net/wireguard-kmod in place? If not, shouldn't there be a check in the Ma= kefile > for net/wireguard so it doesn't pull in net/wireguard-kmod as a dependenc= y on > FreeBSD 13.2? net/wireguard/Makefile has: RUN_DEPENDS+=3D ${KMODDIR}/if_wg.ko:net/wireguard-kmod so the package should have a dependency on net/wireguard-kmod iff if_wg.ko is not present in the target FreeBSD version. From nobody Wed Apr 12 20:01:28 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PxYhf34sBz44fpr for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 20:09:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-pj1-x1029.google.com (mail-pj1-x1029.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1029]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PxYhd5KGZz3JqV for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 20:09:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=dGGBtu2I; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::1029 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net; dmarc=none Received: by mail-pj1-x1029.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2469f709ecaso410365a91.0 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 13:09:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; t=1681330175; x=1683922175; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:organization:reply-to :references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:to:from:date:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=OC37oRHYKoDK03k9f8fdVbi6Ch6eJq+WQfnRABvGMEI=; b=dGGBtu2I8Oq7K5q4fFCKSLIoto4olW//5O9t2uQq4Us+61IpintPoz/uboWJMvl7YF dHs+FXulPheklcaVyPjR5GqgbXoDyNtR4spUmmkwDHu/4gTEUcMASNlOZSBfdT67pRpX 47lLMcOnvZ69Tg3wUi6dU5M0Vg9OqDXpTUsZA= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1681330175; x=1683922175; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:organization:reply-to :references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:to:from:date :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=OC37oRHYKoDK03k9f8fdVbi6Ch6eJq+WQfnRABvGMEI=; b=YnWm5inNOF8iM7mxpy4XmQa+BrgOweCb0qCv7HQiapRBrnrckzHexoAKZGSNsH0PE/ tiTTLzuwlUJKXsFMlnA+sTmTyadQ5AWupk58EpXmFh+S/W7UBW2VU8ISaLS5gzPR304D LIdQhh0WDM3T7GUUfjHKo64agP9/1Srt/zkQTzDjYVsTjU4aSEmNZQsem949ZtQP8g8s ka4flZO93x2PJmsam996OOnpYwzbAzeAESOoaBfjxyTsoTP9WNyOkAdP1A3LN7SDC3sU EbVaHv3Qb5ZcAIGtXpyoDEveZDnq+6QhEq7pVZVn5G0xnZaRIwY9l2MUDZ2g7oYkCkzF UEaw== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9ehrUEJ8aM55qUHUECSLoHNL9JaHypgPjJtL+4Zvl+IVqo6Ub4i ku5XC5QFofwFs1wgTnsnEyY9htEWHzjHtxFvHok= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350Yy/hSwpz8LzgGljWZvi1m78FauRq25YX7FrfkmWwUlnWUKbhOqbjFzKx4/h/JBaQmWVNEBAg== X-Received: by 2002:a81:e83:0:b0:54f:7970:2192 with SMTP id 125-20020a810e83000000b0054f79702192mr3245397ywo.2.1681329690892; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 13:01:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mystic.seibercom.net (cpe-71-77-18-211.nc.res.rr.com. [71.77.18.211]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ck8-20020a05690c0b8800b0054f56baf3f2sm1712694ywb.122.2023.04.12.13.01.29 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 12 Apr 2023 13:01:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (scorpio.seibercom.net [192.168.1.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by mystic.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4PxYWD61cTz26Hl for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 16:01:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 16:01:28 -0400 From: "Gerard E. Seibert" To: "User Questions" Subject: Re: Docker Message-ID: <20230412160128.00005bd4@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> Reply-To: "User Questions" Organization: seibercom NET X-Mailer: Claws Mail 4.1.0 (GTK 3.24.33; x86_64-w64-mingw32) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.50 / 15.00]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::1029:from]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PxYhd5KGZz3JqV X-Spamd-Bar: + X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 15:38:47 +0200, Mario Marietto stated: > ---> Docker will NEVER run on FreeBSD, because Docker is built on > technologies which only exist in the Linux kernel. I have read several articles that state Docker can run on MS Windows. If that is true, and I have not seen anything that disproves it, then it can run on technologies other than those found in the Linux kernel. =20 > I don't agree with this. In my humble opinion Docker can run on > FreeBSD. For sure,not using the same technology that it uses on > Linux. FreeBSD does not use the kernel of Linux,so it cannot lean on > it,but I'm sure that it can lean on a lot of linux features that have > already been implemented on FreeBSD. Maybe they should be improved. > And on some other technologies that can be created almost from > scratch. In my opinion Docker does not work in FreeBSD not for > technical reasons. I'm sure that the technical problems can be solved > if there is the will,the need to overcome them. Honestly I think it > doesn't happen because there are habits and internal beliefs in every > group of OS developers. I'm talking about a certain type of > closed-mindedness and sense of belonging in a group that you don't > want to be scratched by tools that come from other types of OS > cultures. Docker is not needed in FreeBSD because there are already > similar tools that are working well and many systems engineers have > spent time and money to learn how to administer them. If docker were > implemented, these system administrators would continue to use their > favorite tools (jails), even in the industry / market there are just > as many well done. Probably a very few FreeBSD admins even want an > influx of users from linux who could switch to freebsd because of > that tool that wasn't there before but "now" it is there. >=20 > On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 4:29=E2=80=AFAM Tim Preston > wrote: >=20 > > Hi Mario, > > > > I may not have been clear enough in my last email. > > > > Docker will NEVER run on FreeBSD, because Docker is built on > > technologies which only exist in the Linux kernel. > > > > FreeBSD cannot run Linux containers, it can only run FreeBSD jails. > > > > It's not because FreeBSD programmers think they're more special > > than Linux programmers, it's just not technically possible. > > > > If you want to run any of the Docker images available on the > > internet you can try the tooling linked by Dave, which MIGHT let > > you run SOME Docker images inside a FreeBSD jail, using FreeBSD's > > Linux compatibility layer. But these images really require a Linux > > kernel to run properly. > > > > A better approach, if the applications you want to run are > > available in ports, or if the source code builds on FreeBSD, is to > > run them natively in a jail using tools similar to Docker like > > Bastille ( https://bastillebsd.org/) or Pot > > (https://github.com/bsdpot/pot). > > > > I hope some of this helps. > > > > Tim > > > > > > On Tue, 11 Apr 2023, at 8:45 PM, Mario Marietto wrote: > > > > ---> If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker experience, then, > > yes,use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't think there are > > many FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large > > pragmatic people. It's ok to use different tools in different > > situations. > > > > But home users usually are poor people. To have a good computer > > means often to be lucky. I mainly use FreeBSD because I feel good > > when I use many of its tools. But it often happens that I also need > > to be able to have some different tool that I like because I tried > > it in a different system and I liked it. Docker is one of those > > tools. Users love it,even today,but it is becoming old. For sure > > there are good technical reasons behind this "love". The > > development of Docker on FreeBSD stopped a lot of years ago. And > > the reasons for that stop is not only caused by technical > > reasons,in my opinion,but,as I said,even by a form of > > discrimination. The storic FreeBSD users have been trained using > > its own tools and they won't change. They don't want to spend money > > to develop a new/old tool that will enrich the tools park ? This > > mindset is not focused on the satisfaction of those users that > > could migrate or that want to try FreeBSD,after having used another > > OS. It is some kind of sectarian mentality. Yes I can run a VM > > running Linux,but this will waste resources on the machine. Why > > should I run a whole VM if I need only to run a tool ? If the tool > > is not widely used,ok,developing it is not worth it. But we are > > talking of widely used tools here and Docker is one of those tools. > > > > On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:26=E2=80=AFPM Mario Marietto > > wrote: > > > > For sure there are users / developers that are in the middle,like it > > happens in the political area. I like this kind of person. I'm one > > of those people. My criticism is against those users and developers > > that show an exaggerated "love" and fidelity towards a system, > > whether by ideology, whether by habit, or by commercial reasons. > > I'm a frequent visitor to various freebsd forums and I often read > > opinions radicalized on linux technologies that should not enter > > the freebsd world, simply because in Freebsd there are already > > excellent tools that do their job well. Yes,they work well,but why > > not add more and different tools that which would allow the > > creation of bridges between different operating systems ? > > > > On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:17=E2=80=AFPM Dave Cottlehuber > > wrote: > > > > On Tue, 11 Apr 2023, at 09:44, Mario Marietto wrote: > > > Tim,you are wasting your time. It seems that all of these (good) > > > FreeBSD developers don't want you to use Linux technologies if > > > you have chosen FreeBSD as the main OS. That's not good and it > > > sounds like a discriminatory attitude. > > > > I think you're mis-representing the position of a lot of people > > here; please don't do that. > > > > The fast-moving Docker.com tech has been moving towards a > > standards-based "Open Container" https://opencontainers.org/ > > definition, and many people have worked across the standard, the > > implementation, kernel, & tooling, now in ports on FreeBSD, to make > > this possible. Just a few examples: > > > > - https://github.com/samuelkarp/runj/ > > - https://github.com/dfr/ocijail/ > > - https://medium.com/@dfr/oci-containers-for-freebsd-512a6df2bc85 > > > > It would be great to get your feedback on one of these and see what > > you tried, and where it breaks with your expectations. > > > > While it may be possible to run many linux containers with this > > tooling, systemd and other linux-specific things could be present > > in any container you pull, from systemd, to filesystem > > requirements, and expecting all of these to work seamlessly is > > unrealistic. > > > > If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker experience, then, yes, > > use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't think there are many > > FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large pragmatic > > people. It's ok to use different tools in different situations. > > > > A+ > > Dave > > > > > > > > -- > > Mario. > > > > > > > > -- > > Mario. > > > > > > >=20 From nobody Wed Apr 12 20:25:49 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PxZ3p33R4z44hKk for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 20:26:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pat@patmaddox.com) Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.24]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PxZ3m4wwtz4467 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 20:26:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pat@patmaddox.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3268320097C; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 16:26:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap52 ([10.202.2.102]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 12 Apr 2023 16:26:11 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=patmaddox.com; h=cc:content-type:content-type:date:date:from:from:in-reply-to :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:sender :subject:subject:to:to; s=fm2; t=1681331170; x=1681417570; bh=o+ 8ZLm/dV5xsUPI7vab6aTpT6jGIt156YwMnbnJV6ak=; b=G1s1/1K6l9ju4b0Va9 yz1e4ylNZYGEhNr0whTchcbf1tegvjl2GidHYGUHmMJBGWHjuMBS8XmAwUZAyPJc GKFtS+LlB1EJUJ54YLrzO1NHb08bqSg0OUFrQERSQ98gQwydpqZlHKOJ7fy1XbRD D5XQJLaZUHSHY3oYD4eh8+uyPf0FNMyG4v8eciTQotGRGUDmMvTclmN5/Slw2A6I eETRoa7je6f22ZsxDb5zBwHe2SyY/+JyzRnobKdI2zGKXoWk5KCCJOZCDsoWZWT0 vhZIOsPwglQN/jZjOhrlcghoLgVOYq4A7QW6jX4lWxUufDEZ5/f1WoPfHstyxCJq fiTg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:content-type:date:date :feedback-id:feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:sender:subject :subject:to:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; t=1681331170; x=1681417570; bh=o+8ZLm/dV5xsU PI7vab6aTpT6jGIt156YwMnbnJV6ak=; b=Tw0EuHVU2c92OP18i5ABtCXSKyDyy 4Gmnkr27s6/bRcM7yoyg0hkaHfB427+3A48FTaASgy9jXD7rv6QuVuQr9DFbB8Ad 1DFw6VxIkeU8b39Fbe/KUM8rgyRNU37vjEE4QmwEOohcZLci/vHTsK3i7WvOwM0v dyqAnmMS8McNl5gSNdjYcTWhiqUerxeUKOmDdyBimTy6yGxE1s922E0nO0/bcKmf u6fP+0bg5M21M/3Any5U995yXlT1Mdkxt7h364QleBoKw3YD0rxgi291U1FUxFw+ oGXhHWJET3QC3fu398854WbbUQNJpztSQTAbv0ZTbZei7MhkPoUzD6P3Q== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvhedrvdekiedgudehudcutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesth dtredtreertdenucfhrhhomhepfdfrrghtucforgguughogidfuceophgrthesphgrthhm rgguughogidrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepheeutedukeevleejgffhudelke dvhfeileejvefhkeeihfegtdellefgkefhleeunecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptden ucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepphgrthesphgrthhmrgguughogidrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i8b6c40f9:Fastmail Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 58FACC60091; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 16:26:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.9.0-alpha0-334-g8c072af647-fm-20230330.001-g8c072af6 List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <24b3627f-7e1e-4686-8db1-b5df0eceb7d6@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <20230412160128.00005bd4@seibercom.net> References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412160128.00005bd4@seibercom.net> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 13:25:49 -0700 From: "Pat Maddox" To: questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Docker Content-Type: text/plain X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PxZ3m4wwtz4467 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:29838, ipnet:64.147.123.0/24, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Wed, Apr 12, 2023, at 1:01 PM, Gerard E. Seibert wrote: > On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 15:38:47 +0200, Mario Marietto stated: >> ---> Docker will NEVER run on FreeBSD, because Docker is built on >> technologies which only exist in the Linux kernel. > > I have read several articles that state Docker can run on MS Windows. If > that is true, and I have not seen anything that disproves it, then it > can run on technologies other than those found in the Linux kernel. Docker for Windows and Mac both operate by running a Linux VM, and running Docker within the VM. An equivalent approach in FreeBSD would be to implement docker commands to spin up a Linux VM in bhyve and run the container inside it. That has been brought up several times (and summarily rejected by some people here), and is a different thing from FreeBSD kernel supporting Docker containers. Pat From nobody Wed Apr 12 20:28:17 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PxZ6c1c0Dz44hcg for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 20:28:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pat@patmaddox.com) Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.24]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PxZ6Z6PySz488k for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 20:28:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pat@patmaddox.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=patmaddox.com header.s=fm2 header.b=c+y0w6ib; dkim=pass header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b=F250pjme; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of pat@patmaddox.com designates 64.147.123.24 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pat@patmaddox.com; 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Wed, 12 Apr 2023 16:28:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.9.0-alpha0-334-g8c072af647-fm-20230330.001-g8c072af6 List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <1c56fa40-defc-42d7-9c90-f161c3a1caae@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <24b3627f-7e1e-4686-8db1-b5df0eceb7d6@app.fastmail.com> References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412160128.00005bd4@seibercom.net> <24b3627f-7e1e-4686-8db1-b5df0eceb7d6@app.fastmail.com> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 13:28:17 -0700 From: "Pat Maddox" To: questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Docker Content-Type: text/plain X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.09 / 15.00]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[messagingengine.com:dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:64.147.123.24]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[patmaddox.com:s=fm2,messagingengine.com:s=fm3]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[64.147.123.24:from]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[patmaddox.com:+,messagingengine.com:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[64.147.123.24:from]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:29838, ipnet:64.147.123.0/24, country:US]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[pat]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[patmaddox.com]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PxZ6Z6PySz488k X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Wed, Apr 12, 2023, at 1:25 PM, Pat Maddox wrote: > On Wed, Apr 12, 2023, at 1:01 PM, Gerard E. Seibert wrote: >> On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 15:38:47 +0200, Mario Marietto stated: >>> ---> Docker will NEVER run on FreeBSD, because Docker is built on >>> technologies which only exist in the Linux kernel. >> >> I have read several articles that state Docker can run on MS Windows. If >> that is true, and I have not seen anything that disproves it, then it >> can run on technologies other than those found in the Linux kernel. > > Docker for Windows and Mac both operate by running a Linux VM, and > running Docker within the VM. > > An equivalent approach in FreeBSD would be to implement docker commands > to spin up a Linux VM in bhyve and run the container inside it. That > has been brought up several times (and summarily rejected by some > people here), and is a different thing from FreeBSD kernel supporting > Docker containers. > > Pat The magic behind docker desktop: https://www.docker.com/blog/the-magic-behind-the-scenes-of-docker-desktop/ From nobody Wed Apr 12 20:59:05 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PxZnm71yFz44lD6 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 20:59:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-yw1-x1133.google.com (mail-yw1-x1133.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1133]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PxZnm1hsxz3qgY for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 20:59:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b="ad1+u/qx"; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::1133 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net; dmarc=none Received: by mail-yw1-x1133.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-54ee11a607eso1367367b3.1 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 13:59:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; t=1681333147; x=1683925147; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:organization:reply-to :references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:to:from:date:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=JkprVGLjuTMXIZZ14JKze6Pg1Qxf18DmD7Sm71Rw0yY=; b=ad1+u/qxRC67MnoIHD7Twxi3/u0JojNRGdGar/u/7212fpAcS3pdRKaLgC38w0MtHn TxhWLCGCSKGDNJ028ol5N5VxfyIzKIuypKmQUtzYnvCJA6Jwkl5tDD6owi6Vt5l7vxpN ugyG+YmTsG+CKJM3Pk2tZ86qXPhSacHAa4vQk= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1681333147; x=1683925147; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:organization:reply-to :references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:to:from:date :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=JkprVGLjuTMXIZZ14JKze6Pg1Qxf18DmD7Sm71Rw0yY=; b=HStnZHOJ6yOuWgZJchiNkdpm/uCsa1c3zIP1anVW2Bq5JCD9aHZArLBm2jB399/vqF RzJTgi2pqLmhamJbB3ukh0Jk04kYhj+umGdALmdvo0kO9Uumq+t7AGxI+N4EXWGqPjbt c+utqC4jHU7dAj61Eiul18EEwmyBRbTwPMxhAR48GKhHtcuvG9nTYWNcE2liRq9Lfut9 HVD2tJyIGESkT8f07O1EMFr2LiuVXyjBfAUNPdDnAiH0J2bspPGW9rZtGScerk1C1kmQ gbzDj75BM/KQp8nesFDjyf4oXXcb+5g+05gBqcuETGUEwQ0HoOzzs3zSlubvCkpvcMB+ NE7A== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9cvk/1kCtrbhvTC/V1ff3jNzkOpznLj2VEjWanIUfLIllYpQxvT uf7+PggRjlQ/yJkNTFvrXoE06Dl01sGKfH5ivas= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350bRB2jDh0b+/6hDno1p97RjWUm0JxnYgvK+1kXsgZqFLhGl11/z5iliyBH16oYvZMheKi3mAg== X-Received: by 2002:a25:b081:0:b0:b8f:46c3:dfe5 with SMTP id f1-20020a25b081000000b00b8f46c3dfe5mr2815751ybj.1.1681333146979; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 13:59:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mystic.seibercom.net (cpe-71-77-18-211.nc.res.rr.com. [71.77.18.211]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n19-20020a81eb13000000b00545a08184e5sm4363007ywm.117.2023.04.12.13.59.06 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 12 Apr 2023 13:59:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (scorpio.seibercom.net [192.168.1.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by mystic.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4PxZnj3gWYz26Dt for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 16:59:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 16:59:05 -0400 From: "Gerard E. Seibert" To: "User Questions" Subject: Re: Docker Message-ID: <20230412165905.00003313@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <24b3627f-7e1e-4686-8db1-b5df0eceb7d6@app.fastmail.com> References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412160128.00005bd4@seibercom.net> <24b3627f-7e1e-4686-8db1-b5df0eceb7d6@app.fastmail.com> Reply-To: "User Questions" Organization: seibercom NET X-Mailer: Claws Mail 4.1.0 (GTK 3.24.33; x86_64-w64-mingw32) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.50 / 15.00]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::1133:from]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PxZnm1hsxz3qgY X-Spamd-Bar: + X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 13:25:49 -0700, Pat Maddox stated: > On Wed, Apr 12, 2023, at 1:01 PM, Gerard E. Seibert wrote: > > On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 15:38:47 +0200, Mario Marietto stated: > >> ---> Docker will NEVER run on FreeBSD, because Docker is built on > >> technologies which only exist in the Linux kernel. > > > > I have read several articles that state Docker can run on MS > > Windows. If that is true, and I have not seen anything that > > disproves it, then it can run on technologies other than those > > found in the Linux kernel. > > Docker for Windows and Mac both operate by running a Linux VM, and > running Docker within the VM. > > An equivalent approach in FreeBSD would be to implement docker > commands to spin up a Linux VM in bhyve and run the container inside > it. That has been brought up several times (and summarily rejected by > some people here), and is a different thing from FreeBSD kernel > supporting Docker containers. I was getting that information from here: https://docs.docker.com/desktop/install/windows-install/ From nobody Wed Apr 12 21:22:21 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PxbL50TpJz44n6S for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 21:23:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-database@pp.dyndns.biz) Received: from keymaster.home (ns1.xn--wesstrm-f1a.se [81.4.102.176]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "keymaster.home", Issuer "keymaster.home" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PxbL36N8Gz3Gpm for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 21:23:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-database@pp.dyndns.biz) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd-database@pp.dyndns.biz has no SPF policy when checking 81.4.102.176) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd-database@pp.dyndns.biz; dmarc=none Received: from [192.168.254.0] ([192.168.254.0]) by keymaster.home (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTP id 33CLMM4Q020981 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 23:22:22 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from freebsd-database@pp.dyndns.biz) Message-ID: <40b2657e-12cd-8090-84ec-95ed5b7685eb@pp.dyndns.biz> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 23:22:21 +0200 List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.9.0 From: =?UTF-8?Q?Morgan_Wesstr=c3=b6m?= Subject: Re: What is the proper way to handle the wireguard module now that it's part of the base system? To: questions@freebsd.org References: <05ba770b-cd03-2ee9-3b3c-8dfcd1ea4fdc@pp.dyndns.biz> <7a8841a8-6211-7929-6c81-cc9306906732@freebsd.org> Content-Language: en-GB In-Reply-To: <7a8841a8-6211-7929-6c81-cc9306906732@freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.26 / 15.00]; HFILTER_HELO_IP_A(1.00)[keymaster.home]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; HFILTER_HELO_NORES_A_OR_MX(0.30)[keymaster.home]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.26)[0.260]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.20)[-0.204]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; ASN(0.00)[asn:198203, ipnet:81.4.100.0/22, country:NL]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[pp.dyndns.biz]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PxbL36N8Gz3Gpm X-Spamd-Bar: ++ X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On 2023-04-12 19:34, Graham Perrin wrote: > Not a direct answer to your questions, but try > . > Thank you. The thread pointed out something my consciousness simply didn't register even though it was there right before my eyes. The net/wireguard package is a meta-package that doesn't install any code itself. It just pulls in net/wireguard-kmod and net/wireguard-tools. The dependecy on the kmod package is from that meta-package and I can of course deinstall it and only keep net/wireguard-tools. For my other questions I found some info myself. kldconfig(8) controls which paths should be searched for modules. Default is to look in /boot/kernel first which is logical. # kldconfig -r /boot/kernel;/boot/modules;/boot/dtb;/boot/dtb/overlays If I for some reason would want to load the kmod version first I guess I could just reconfigure that path but that would prioritize any duplicate modules in /boot/modules which may not be what I want. So question still remains if this behaviour can be controlled for individual modules? There's also some metadata attached to each module: # kldxref -d /boot/modules/if_wg.ko /boot/modules/if_wg.ko module wg depends on kernel.1301000 (1301000,1399999) interface wg.20220615 depends on crypto.1 (1,1) # kldxref -d /boot/kernel/if_wg.ko /boot/kernel/if_wg.ko module wg depends on kernel.1302001 (1302001,1302001) interface wg.20220615 depends on crypto.1 (1,1) I understand that the base version need 13.2 to load but I'm uncertain how to interpret (1301000,1399999) on the Ports version. Will it allow the module to load on any version higher than 13.1 without being recompiled? /Morgan From nobody Wed Apr 12 23:57:03 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PxflK28WTz4518W for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 23:57:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-yw1-x1134.google.com (mail-yw1-x1134.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1134]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PxflJ4NVrz3jmn for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 23:57:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=GdGtsIMS; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::1134) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info; dmarc=none Received: by mail-yw1-x1134.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-5491fa028adso574251247b3.10 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 16:57:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; t=1681343835; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=WyJigCFPJ/Mv+elVjHYPgHuLCy9uYpoVOOlV3qtLDTo=; b=GdGtsIMSI4qUREc1+paEyEkpbBWUOv3/8boiZVaGm7lDHupxqcq1lP7O8RgODhhrAN D1DMbNMdRYzaHtydU+LzuYdVM5eOHLhLPBJgbgrxxytPBStegnr5EcOyXgye6pEB49TW J8AUZchVXGZijxttJ8KZyYd2V0B7pVvoZt41qwKl3nkEgtGeqzgnny0uiTNcBFdwfnIp N+3o7e7gIOhq778Q5NYLPq9qaBRoZ1bjzTnEJqr+gGXhG3F2zMhfOHfqQjA9+Fe7vT4x Xwlha0sKTrotWg1Z767QR1uyNdj0u/zvn0H3QjmLafXyud8kepum53iQe0xpfkwVK5d0 W46Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1681343835; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=WyJigCFPJ/Mv+elVjHYPgHuLCy9uYpoVOOlV3qtLDTo=; b=Nn995Yld7jJzt9LvIvECka3nt1vr4ZpS9x+NWiMInQ6Z4H5+clsnXk6VlwQzttOnzX d2qGR8B8GjsERVXIsk2wG6KHvivqicHLMd+jrfhfEVySYAl79PmWGf/5N4Bm93zRFVq/ Tpz928gbKU6jfEF/2ypWjIHEaaXDQ90m5kSzomCaNlsARX7EMn6r/ALSriu9cLrr78QF jxGxSwPgARK7QGaHUmht5LHds15+s7BE8qK2BZeHswPh1U76+L0jnqoM8uAXVtYHFk/C LO3inTNhOBlhCqn+0V9Xs1Y80/oKhfN1s76nnqy2mv9PPTq3foOHMBLZQspYDzlulunr 5BzQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9cKEOpMq5M7lLEhZFsvyoGqjXZQBnOluHN3CBywvkohSgkw5P4P Ea/3WuJ6kCxIGMlJVaUYKBMO9Z4YuhlMFiLjCmQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350ZlcZpsZ20VBJIUyrkjKsj3yDDnNvcyGI+xuVvYQk8qsgvN32bkzipJWSiHO2vy/OjR91XGYw== X-Received: by 2002:a81:1742:0:b0:54f:6f2e:b3f5 with SMTP id 63-20020a811742000000b0054f6f2eb3f5mr4450220ywx.13.1681343835689; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 16:57:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-f170.google.com (mail-yb1-f170.google.com. [209.85.219.170]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a206-20020a814dd7000000b00545a081847bsm80526ywb.11.2023.04.12.16.57.15 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 12 Apr 2023 16:57:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-f170.google.com with SMTP id h198so20166619ybg.12; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 16:57:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a25:77cb:0:b0:b21:5fb4:c6e6 with SMTP id s194-20020a2577cb000000b00b215fb4c6e6mr154750ybc.11.1681343834918; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 16:57:14 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230411044832.10F73170F8@freefall.freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: From: Tomek CEDRO Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2023 01:57:03 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: FreeBSD 13.2-RELEASE Now Available To: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Cc: freebsd-emulation@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.30 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.999]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::1134:from,209.85.219.170:received]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PxflJ4NVrz3jmn X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N Okay, so after upgrading to 13.2 I am unable to use VirtualBox again, I saw this already on 13.2-STABLE and rolled back to 13.1-RELEASE but the problem seems to be still here..? 1. pkg provides package for 13.1 that does not work on 13.2. 2. ports master vbox ose kmod builds fine but kernel panics on module load. https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=270809 Any hints how to fix? :-) -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From nobody Thu Apr 13 00:27:52 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PxgQs0s1Nz453hM for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 00:28:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-ej1-x632.google.com (mail-ej1-x632.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::632]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PxgQr49djz4NMY for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 00:28:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-ej1-x632.google.com with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-94a39f6e8caso310336566b.0 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 17:28:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20221208.gappssmtp.com; s=20221208; t=1681345683; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=8apmI+MDsiuKqSowwM/XPY8YPD5HZDyF1O0gX161iCc=; b=XX2P+/soWitJaRiy2GtOLmy0NY22NqATfa6bNW0SVPhN3YQUtYsrgR+qaZpHf+3XlF 8DwUNVqX42dw/KCqBRX2iwowrPEetE9aQfhJxO6+Z3F4BFfw5XUOlSwcTIYMG2Ikf7Pv 79WTc8205b2jPRZOEkFqGNQ3C0xAm5n2VCS4NRg6XQSzjDWnpAmfHvym8c73M6Z0mUFe gEHGzHDZuatgDbnm1eHeqJfTDwGOT/jnDmzJPefwDA3udiAaxJI5LyqvaGJ5mWyKhMEk CI2RFlOj1mvVkX/4bbhG0DP/UhTY2aOFnIZgqFkRrdfH7nl2/pB79jIGi0XanIqeoq/d PBAw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1681345683; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=8apmI+MDsiuKqSowwM/XPY8YPD5HZDyF1O0gX161iCc=; b=jRGWrnHXgiQL54WvmVznsb704E2G0SFz9Hqj4shV+500aJwGqGEkWjcyiDDxBh4nPe Clx8ew6kE980p/4n8TxAgR7YFI2affkDrbO5visNE5k+V6t9TJiIb2wkRfDtelpC99kF L/w3z/4rouf8lHMN5rdnZi+76Xlvs1MDbTIZIyTspJCdZpbINPk+3xYDx4OET0Q/y92a /plPeCv3Z5M5A/6sP9TcTG8pQ6TPN4T+bqmAhP7RXARBmSenRTpD9yjQIOGkTLNY/VkT tj/+24H5Gd0OzEwfyrphdbIrNlaoy2M2eo9P0j5oZDiwkulKr0cslL2ndKg/scK4XWYx pAeg== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9f40Xu3BpJC6bqvteCquHC/JQLoRnhqNRqEPpg+2nd6lwmDS3oA xdSPhVUBTjUY4ggit00H82/lpOEt9isUPsKSyV76UQoSgJ5zy7uD X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350b+fGEX/+rlcIUAbS5AKI2i8VWeWh9h/IrbwaWA1HydpnwTt7FSJ599lIaQH/u1Mvl77Q4488tsnfxgoAXPPSQ= X-Received: by 2002:a50:aa84:0:b0:504:7094:2b59 with SMTP id q4-20020a50aa84000000b0050470942b59mr247675edc.7.1681345683135; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 17:28:03 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230411044832.10F73170F8@freefall.freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 18:27:52 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FreeBSD 13.2-RELEASE Now Available To: Tomek CEDRO Cc: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List , freebsd-emulation@freebsd.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003037fa05f92ccc6c" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PxgQr49djz4NMY X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --0000000000003037fa05f92ccc6c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 5:57 PM Tomek CEDRO wrote: > Okay, so after upgrading to 13.2 I am unable to use VirtualBox again, > I saw this already on 13.2-STABLE and rolled back to 13.1-RELEASE but > the problem seems to be still here..? > > 1. pkg provides package for 13.1 that does not work on 13.2. > 2. ports master vbox ose kmod builds fine but kernel panics on module load. > > https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=270809 > > Any hints how to fix? :-) > Build from source and lock the package against updates. Warner -- > CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info > > --0000000000003037fa05f92ccc6c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 5:57 PM Tomek CEDRO <tomek@cedro.info> wrote:
Okay, so after upgrading to 13.2 I am unable to u= se VirtualBox again,
I saw this already on 13.2-STABLE and rolled back to 13.1-RELEASE but
the problem seems to be still here..?

1. pkg provides package for 13.1 that does not work on 13.2.
2. ports master vbox ose kmod builds fine but kernel panics on module load.=

https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzi= lla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D270809

Any hints how to fix? :-)
Build from source and lock the package against upd= ates.

Warner

--
CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info

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[209.85.219.169]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m2-20020a258002000000b00b7767ca7485sm72316ybk.34.2023.04.12.18.10.49 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 12 Apr 2023 18:10:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-f169.google.com with SMTP id v7so12308480ybi.0; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 18:10:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a25:cf4e:0:b0:b8f:5519:74b with SMTP id f75-20020a25cf4e000000b00b8f5519074bmr90988ybg.0.1681348248680; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 18:10:48 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230411044832.10F73170F8@freefall.freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: From: Tomek CEDRO Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2023 03:10:37 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: FreeBSD 13.2-RELEASE Now Available To: Warner Losh Cc: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List , freebsd-emulation@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PxhNC3HxWz427P X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 2:28=E2=80=AFAM Warner Losh wrote: > On Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 5:57 PM Tomek CEDRO wrote: >> 1. pkg provides package for 13.1 that does not work on 13.2. >> 2. ports master vbox ose kmod builds fine but kernel panics on module lo= ad. >> https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D270809 >> Any hints how to fix? :-) > > Build from source and lock the package against updates. Thanks Warner, I sometimes do that, but the built from ports causes kernel panic :-( --=20 CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From nobody Thu Apr 13 01:30:37 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Pxhq61fMpz458f6 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 01:30:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from trkellers@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qt1-x835.google.com (mail-qt1-x835.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::835]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Pxhq42Q0Kz3NSr for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 01:30:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from trkellers@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20221208 header.b=kqtnpaEJ; 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That's interesting, I'm running VirtualBox 7 on a Mac and I have 13.2-stable running as a guest  The Mac, running OS 13 .3.1 is the host.  I do remember having to hack around with kext files to get VB to run, but 13.2-stable runs fine as a guest.  I'll try building Vbox on the FreeBSD guest and see what happens if I use it as a hopst and report back.


Tim

Timothy Kellers, Sr.
AWS

On 4/12/23 7:57 PM, Tomek CEDRO wrote:
Okay, so after upgrading to 13.2 I am unable to use VirtualBox again,
I saw this already on 13.2-STABLE and rolled back to 13.1-RELEASE but
the problem seems to be still here..?

1. pkg provides package for 13.1 that does not work on 13.2.
2. ports master vbox ose kmod builds fine but kernel panics on module load.

https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=270809

Any hints how to fix? :-)
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On Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 7:10 PM Tomek CEDRO <tomek@cedro.info> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 2:28=E2=80=AFAM Warner Lo= sh wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 5:57 PM Tomek CEDRO wrote:
>> 1. pkg provides package for 13.1 that does not work on 13.2.
>> 2. ports master vbox ose kmod builds fine but kernel panics on mod= ule load.
>> https://bugs.freebsd.o= rg/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D270809
>> Any hints how to fix? :-)
>
> Build from source and lock the package against updates.

Thanks Warner, I sometimes do that, but the built from ports causes
kernel panic :-(

Oh my. That's not the usual problem...

Warner=C2=A0

=
--
CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info
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charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Mar 28, 2023 at 5:29=E2=80=AFPM Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Tue, 28 Mar 2023 17:16:36 +0200 > Tomek CEDRO wrote: > > > if there are lots of images for linux docker, and docker is linux only > > solution, there is no reason to talk about it on bsd or even offer some > > sort of images of bsd for linux right? > > Until recently I would have said yes very much so, but Kubernetes > is now deprecating Docker and providing generic container support so it > should be very easy to get Kubernetes to orchestrate jails and Bhyve vms. > > Agreed 100% --00000000000018c0f105f93309c7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Mar 28, 2023 at 5:29=E2=80=AF= PM Steve O'Hara-Smith <steve@soh= ara.org> wrote:
On Tue, 28 Mar 2023 17:16:= 36 +0200
Tomek CEDRO <tomek= @cedro.info> wrote:

> if there are lots of images for linux docker, and docker is linux only=
> solution, there is no reason to talk about it on bsd or even offer som= e
> sort of images of bsd for linux right?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Until recently I would have said yes very much = so, but Kubernetes
is now deprecating Docker and providing generic container support so it
should be very easy to get Kubernetes to orchestrate jails and Bhyve vms.

Agreed 100%=C2=A0
=C2=A0
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charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:26=E2=80=AFPM Mario Marietto wrote: > For sure there are users / developers that are in the middle,like it > happens in the political area. I like this kind of person. I'm one of tho= se > people. My criticism is against those users and developers that show an > exaggerated "love" and fidelity towards a system, whether by ideology, > whether by habit, or by commercial reasons. I'm a frequent visitor to > various freebsd forums and I often read opinions radicalized on linux > technologies that should not enter the freebsd world, simply because in > Freebsd there are already excellent tools that do their job well. Yes,the= y > work well,but why not add more and different tools that which would allow > the creation of bridges between different operating systems ? > > > The thing is that FreeBSD is actually better. By 2006 I was doing with EzJail what many people consider today cutting edge. We ventured out on "boutique web hosting" for a while and I single-handedly administered about 12 bare metal FBSD servers with anywhere between a dozen to 20+ jails each. Today there's Bastille and much better tooling and I don't think that FBSD necessarily needs to " fit in" with the container and AWS crowd. FreeBSD invented containers as jails long before they were reinvented by Linux and Docker. I think the best path is to continue to do what it is good at, which is producing the most stable and high performance OS on the planet. I'm not saying that change and evolution are not good, I'm just saying that I don't see FBSD as a " me too" player. If you look at any company or organization who abandons their core values to pursue the latest FAD or whatever usually just dissolves into oblivion. There are tons of example but RadioShack comes to mind, when in the 1990s they decided to almost do everything contrary to the core values... I had worked there as a teen in the 80s and I could not believe what I saw when I visited the States in 90s. Getting Kubernetes to work over bare metal FBSD --AND-- adding a compatibility layer to pull in existing Docker images could make it very attractive for companies and organizations wanting to move away from AWS or Azure back into their own stacks.. what VMWare failed to do. Initially it could target just development teams and startups wanting to save on AWS but eventually I think a lot of companies would want to move away from Amazon or Azure but they just don't have a viable alternative. anyway just my $0.02 Best, --=20 Alex --000000000000fbc95005f93357c8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:26=E2=80= =AFPM Mario Marietto <marietto= 2008@gmail.com> wrote:
Fo= r sure there are users / developers that are in the middle,like it happens = in the political area. I like this kind of person. I'm one of those peo= ple. My criticism is against those users and developers that show an exaggerated "love" and fidelity towards a system, whe= ther by ideology, whether by habit, or by commercial reasons. I'm a frequent visitor to various freebsd forums and I ofte= n read opinions radicalized on linux technologies = that should not enter the freebsd world, simply because in Freebsd there ar= e already excellent tools that do their job well. Yes,they work well,but wh= y not add more and different tools that which woul= d allow the creation of bridges between different operating systems ?



The thing is that FreeBSD is actually better. By 2= 006 I was doing with EzJail what many people consider today cutting edge. W= e ventured out on "boutique web hosting" for a while and I single= -handedly administered about 12 bare metal FBSD servers with anywhere betwe= en a dozen to 20+ jails each. Today there's Bastille and much better to= oling and I don't think that FBSD necessarily needs to " fit in&qu= ot; with the container and AWS crowd. FreeBSD invented containers as jails= =C2=A0long before they were reinvented by Linux and Docker. I think the bes= t path=C2=A0is to continue to do what it is good at, which is producing the= most stable and high performance OS on the planet.=C2=A0

I'm not saying that change and evolution are not good, I'm = just saying that I don't see FBSD as a " me too" player. If y= ou look at any company or organization who=C2=A0abandons their core values = to pursue the latest FAD or whatever usually just dissolves into oblivion. = There are tons of example but RadioShack comes to mind, when in the 1990s t= hey decided to almost do everything contrary to the core values... I had wo= rked there as a teen in the 80s and I could not believe what I saw when I v= isited the States in 90s.=C2=A0

Getting Kubern= etes to work over bare metal FBSD --AND-- adding a compatibility layer to p= ull in existing Docker images could make it very attractive for companies a= nd organizations wanting to move away from AWS or Azure back into their own= stacks.. what VMWare failed to do. Initially it could target just developm= ent teams and startups wanting to save on AWS but eventually I think a lot = of companies would want to move away from Amazon or Azure but they just don= 't have a viable alternative.=C2=A0

anyway jus= t my $0.02=C2=A0

Best,

--= =C2=A0
Alex

=C2=A0
--000000000000fbc95005f93357c8-- From nobody Thu Apr 13 08:17:30 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Pxsrk5zKQz44VfK for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 08:17:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aimass@yabarana.com) Received: from mail-ej1-x62d.google.com (mail-ej1-x62d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::62d]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Pxsrk2rb1z4MG7 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 08:17:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aimass@yabarana.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-ej1-x62d.google.com with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-94a34d3812cso327118066b.2 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 01:17:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yabarana-com.20221208.gappssmtp.com; s=20221208; t=1681373861; x=1683965861; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=LKRhDxJyjGXliSojCSPuS9JNEWFFDxgxeMSNXdlIN5Q=; b=DEb/GsjHGpsnpHzpJXUStpSPuif5+hAq1mhKbTI3/jdvho2FkCKiBXNnpfFrwpa4D9 f3UqOf+vVP12rMsIXb4DgjWRmA2yfJYxV9Dzjb3VSYbZOlGLm16Vy6QQrPgsBu6EbOo3 xpXR9B5GUSEMWtHHzIH2Ks29m5VN8CatOAHXvhDHBCoGmwya4OsTKytPjXHZlLsIqBQA ZW0sExOWe9rlT5KOFlcqrlid4GO+2KrkRi1ChzKkF6htIVLaKWqCy3BdQpgnYhjaBqD7 an+PH7COwnRWir5xddL5ZyKjLv5wPGpfHX87gCuZ/m7/HWO/VtMD0uk/VTWHw0/x8D5c 8zUA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1681373861; x=1683965861; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=LKRhDxJyjGXliSojCSPuS9JNEWFFDxgxeMSNXdlIN5Q=; b=TGZy1VhENMtzzKelzo5zxpFirj7lCkTDz7cWaY2+cehQFGgfl0FnT/4DsGwBRXhLG9 yaX27Bro/2RVa1iaZElSTiKPHFbASp8AWyUR9P9ls+TCxvwiiRnBm68Ex0AqE8eQUzR+ Vfjsss+R6VkkUpixKMavgdl/6Oa8d2hbAlEVHAX8uyzoBYNGm2/YiW4bFWAGdUp0Wkzd tpNQC+qC13CGC/8emUygH9mue2ULADxuTL4NiBghOzpaKoSuV+6uzFhdNMI7ki4jjLDm dfKQkjYmgQq1k7GUI1LvK+8LPaVAHyyFaVGw0VVF1xNhy0wGMErw2/bZzj4BaebZTAgK Hgig== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9eYtz/bsekQvclGT3AEu4ObfNKCJzrtTepUj9fJADPKJmG+pMac JEzNUFtpkvcvolNdf4POeR4HqYNOOoQ1U2AHr0Fu1qAIdNBR8urqwUA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350bCFqtGJK7QL1q4HGeC9EUixb6r9vywNBJx2wPC1vfrRQkcnPpJC80dTqx4BsVwJqsjkQ37WwXj3E8SmRUGqMI= X-Received: by 2002:a50:8ad7:0:b0:4fa:e5e0:9466 with SMTP id k23-20020a508ad7000000b004fae5e09466mr750337edk.7.1681373860977; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 01:17:40 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> From: Alejandro Imass Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2023 10:17:30 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Docker To: Paul Pathiakis Cc: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" , Mario Marietto , Tim Preston , freebsd-questions Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b80a3105f9335b41" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Pxsrk2rb1z4MG7 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --000000000000b80a3105f9335b41 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 4:28=E2=80=AFPM Paul Pathiakis wrote: > I believe the simplest thing would be to wrap jails or iocage in an > interface that looks like and behaves Docker-like. > > and Bastille! > > --000000000000b80a3105f9335b41 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


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On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 4:28=E2=80=AF= PM Paul Pathiakis <pathiaki2@yaho= o.com> wrote:
I believe the simplest thing would be to wrap jail= s or iocage in an interface that looks like and behaves Docker-like.
<= div dir=3D"ltr">

and = Bastille!
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--000000000000b80a3105f9335b41-- From nobody Thu Apr 13 09:17:08 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Pxv9P4gF8z44bXl for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 09:17:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.134]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "Telekom Security ServerID OV Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Pxv9P09f5z3mwG for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 09:17:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.5.230.94]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue009 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MWRZr-1psdjC3fzf-00XtPY; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 11:17:10 +0200 Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2023 11:17:08 +0200 From: Polytropon To: "Dan Mahoney (Ports)" Cc: questions@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: filesystem labels? Message-Id: <20230413111708.62d8c8d3.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:yIgqF9QgJ8xWD4/xPXZ2P1gUlCwDEYYBKbZpbpfhMzDRQEbosid Rx7WtL+BYpNB5h0LYUdh2hujmXPJ1VQe1j9A1cHop/Oi7ERL0EyuiyqSEbxwH2CaC71SSyA TBDWdlovViptTa/Zgjbc0jcOlzP5cyiV0WG92j2MVEHf/LSVdOkqtiYi95hCOHFpQJ8eG2s 8BEWkpNdAAi7P5q+PEL/g== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:FJBrjt9ltV4=;zZKm7bdT+BeDzVnHJdBik7SE4ZD cVwsxjuNotOJ8lMPTqCdMAaapAUCiujkFf0OTgI3+idBKyddiZLYrOJ3KidGTzIfiCnO99j58 9bc0OcvzrRBaJw+7v5d5vpqcjTDZ3MIUdZuZFSrv/4wPgvSPDqmY335rknVnTv7qM1TzrTpn+ J2bFBuOLTFGOINCjzxd31ztuH88nnQc5dpoRDYsK4gufAzYO5tXUEGtUgRRahbdEe3aZ7fLwA oeKw8YEGlXOgdFQtUleee+otfov7DtLxeTqMrXd8YnzZwEQ77iSItCHC3tqOMgBJEjoz/mdlz BaR/w0MI9kI5bzVQbJcXh5lZjwvz622fDGk/CBcdMfcrcsNNx5lOCs6STc8znp7miGvTKD+SA rLKf0WzCJzcAZPk8RsxfzaoJnLG96aXV6lY0lcetxni2NODL7qjliCx/voIeQP4rSRmEfl7ys cQJcbbnq5SRkyf0fMR4Na6gZj78+MUkBIEyZc5cigAi6ejSEvw8oYtX1dVVAW0vATLGd6oeAw hfdZCHb7l8C8H5X7QwfwigpSIIyAbeEaOmS7TULr5Nrfmne8FHes7EhXN+bDGkApo5MPN7Kk6 H1vqmEzQ8f/5/auwEyNYyVEJ7P3fT9q4Kh94CR1fUYwGtZtutjG1injAY5onsNqlyPu3Kk8tv yKBWtOHUcJKg8ttaCkxr/Pj0xgdEkQ9cHj+xjcSWjw== X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Pxv9P09f5z3mwG X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 08:58:22 -0700, Dan Mahoney (Ports) wrote: > I find that the handbook mentions glabel labels, but several > other places say don’t use them. For example? THis is a honest question, because in my experience glabels are a common solution for disk labelling. > I managed to apply a gpt label to my new partition that I > created using only “gpart” > > The handbook mentions glabel labels, and tunefs labels, but > says nothing about GPT labels. GPT labels are specific to GPT partitioning scheme (as opposed to MBR partitioning, either as "dedicated mode" with bare partitions, or "DOS mode" with partitions inide slices). Because today you're probably going to use GPT partitioning, GPT labels can be used without any problem. Labels applied to MBR-style partitions can be both glabel or UFSIDs. > I’ve seen some more complete posts on the forums > (i.e. https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/how-to-label-partitions.64380/) > but they still don’t show the full picture of what > labels are usable where, by what and which. Allow me to try to help with this problem: GPT partitioning: devices: /dev/da0p1, /dev/da0p2, ... tool: gpart label: GPT label location: /dev/gpt/ MBR partitioning: tools: gpart (traditional: fdisk, disklabel) dedicated partitioning: devices: /dev/da0a, /dev/da0b, ... tool: glabel label: glabel location: /dev/label/ applied to FS (instead of partition): tools: newfs, tunefs label: UFS label location: /dev/ufs/ -or- tool: none label: UFSID location: /dev/ufsid/ DOS style ("primary DOS partitions"): devices: /dev/da0s1a, da0s1b, ... /dev/da1s1a, ... tools and labels as above My very own summary is: When you setup disks, use GPT. Use MBR only if you have a good reason to. :-) Of course you _can_ apply a UFS label or use a UFSID for a UFS filesystem in a GPT partition, but that's not really neccessary because you can already label the partition itself. > Is there a good primer people know of of what the various > types are, fully, which are supported in fstab, which work > with ZFS only, and the like? Not that I'm aware of, but please compare: https://docs.freebsd.org/en/books/handbook/geom/#geom-glabel https://people.freebsd.org/~rodrigc/doc/data/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/bsdinstall-partitioning.html http://wonkity.com/~wblock/docs/html/disksetup.html > Or should I just keep on using /dev/daX in fstab? Nothing wrong with that in a static environment, i. e., one where you can safely predict which devices wiill be detected in which order to conclude what their device filenames will be. Otherwise, go with GPT labels. > (This only came up, as I’m moving virtual disk images > around, and renumbering happens automatically when I > delete one from a running vm), so labels are useful > in this case. Definitely. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From nobody Thu Apr 13 09:20:44 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PxvFX3pq4z44brM for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 09:20:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from johannes-maria@t-online.de) Received: from mailout10.t-online.de (mailout10.t-online.de [194.25.134.21]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mailout00.t-online.de", Issuer "Telekom Security ServerID OV Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PxvFX1c06z3tb3 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 09:20:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from johannes-maria@t-online.de) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from fwd84.dcpf.telekom.de (fwd84.aul.t-online.de [10.223.144.110]) by mailout10.t-online.de (Postfix) with SMTP id EDFD5134BC; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 11:20:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from t-online.de ([194.140.112.154]) by fwd84.t-online.de with (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 encrypted) esmtp id 1pmt8H-1OoEGO0; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 11:20:45 +0200 Received: by t-online.de (nbSMTP-1.00) for uid 1001 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) johannes-maria@t-online.de; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 11:20:45 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2023 11:20:44 +0200 From: Johannes-Maria Kaltenbach To: "Dan Mahoney (Ports)" Cc: questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: filesystem labels? Message-ID: <20230413092044.GB2143@localhost.org> References: List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.2 (2019-09-21) X-TOI-EXPURGATEID: 150726::1681377645-99D4FC79-A90AAF44/0/0 CLEAN NORMAL X-TOI-MSGID: 1f634d47-33f5-4360-99d2-8411a46d77d6 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PxvFX1c06z3tb3 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:3320, ipnet:194.25.0.0/16, country:DE] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N Hello, On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 08:58:22AM -0700, Dan Mahoney (Ports) wrote: ... > The handbook mentions glabel labels, and tunefs labels, > but says nothing about GPT labels. ... > Is there a good primer ... see e. g. Michael W Lucas FreeBSD Mastery: Storage Essentials Best regards, Johannes-Maria From nobody Thu Apr 13 11:31:02 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Pxy8W3Bsqz44pqV for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 11:31:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yw1-x1131.google.com (mail-yw1-x1131.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1131]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Pxy8W0SbDz4LVm for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 11:31:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-yw1-x1131.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-5491fa028adso599202617b3.10 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 04:31:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1681385498; x=1683977498; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=sBBNNETTYBSX4wc8u7X7N2NPbzbCBcrQFNa+PCZRreY=; b=mno/2zdcxNlWB8s8t6ch29Tbznm3EoRNe8yHmWP9Lg/TNeaiHhjHLzNIkKOriYlYS5 9gTeTnmVsrSj37/Mw50XhcZALqZ8Bkp08RzmotrZ2VbHuGkCV03ubUjDUmUmQemPxYB1 Px9RWgn+2yNx2kcsiwSg5f/thfJ5tT+FZBTLNu2HdwcEg0CJ93WLsQVvcu71JSCnouC4 dsrhBi0lXJp8dm90fsT1I8Y6E2Ir/EwQMYXi9lZyf9jR/JZwPYXFd0X5wubIwi9D0Bz3 +TAC7kkKde8DDyyPnOqgkX/pU0BeLLGJmalDtJNKX/X/AEV8j4tBTCiYTzrLb2VuwO+p LAFA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1681385498; x=1683977498; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=sBBNNETTYBSX4wc8u7X7N2NPbzbCBcrQFNa+PCZRreY=; b=R1iNal/aLLGawh6jTiNHE0sZRhWLVGcRxAqlf88B91lPMh1M0Qm+W13tgj2Ul7EPl7 0Mi9PDkn1txax/0j+PGeOoJFmZF0jmsgZbX0WwVd/OHSQs5SWoZ3Vb2lfd2v2RfpUhTy MIAs9F2LGnUcxwtKAicY/bVEfpDY1uoPvd5nEGX4wtlPeP7I4SsYw3wZOikK3WnR9hAk 51Oh9uccnC9qegwS+a4MPIP2wawL5k0X2flKgCSOtWumADKSUoRIiSYbzzwYakzgrlds P0MinR9vWvneRZI7BnEUB1+3OPAbGPgafscyf7RY7SuodPoi3U2eX9z6W2qdnolspv0h 5Y+A== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9cQf7XUmivHe/OQGfg+4rVozt3nvrhhXxNzKm3nfH07+MHLb1Hb 1IYU7v1ZUklWDffCYfuZBw25npNHCqepEYJ5uuW47Ptcija+OfAL X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350Y9JalXHwtOEhJcRzs3edZ9tPHP5NKYYuPlnknMAxmjmExqsWma2NebF+Yk8a+JcIQ+FMIyGDfHixLzbOjhSSA= X-Received: by 2002:a81:e443:0:b0:54c:fd7:476e with SMTP id t3-20020a81e443000000b0054c0fd7476emr1193353ywl.3.1681385498342; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 04:31:38 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: From: Mario Marietto Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2023 13:31:02 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Docker To: Alejandro Imass Cc: Paul Pathiakis , "Steve O'Hara-Smith" , Tim Preston , freebsd-questions Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005bfb2e05f9361146" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Pxy8W0SbDz4LVm X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --0000000000005bfb2e05f9361146 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The point of my argumentation is not if FreeBSD has or not good tools for containerizing and securing applications. It has. Point is that the users that don't know FreeBSD are tied to their own tools and rarely want to change them. Almost everyone wants to change. But trying,experimenting and changing something in the workflow is important,because every tool has bad and good sides. There are many docker images already to be used on the net and this will save a lot of time and effort and money for a lot of people. This is a fact. And I think that it happened because Docker is...good. FreeBSD has tools like docker,but the mass production of containerized images never happened. So,would we ask ourselves the reason ? Maybe something has not gone well. I use Linux and FreeBSD and I "love" both these systems. Linux has a larger user base than FreeBSD. A larger user base may mean more innovations in a small time,a faster bug correction and so on. I think that mostly advantages from the implementation of docker on FreeBSD will come from the user base. Mostly for those users that come from linux or other OS and that already use docker and kubernetes. I don't think those users are a small number. Those users could jump to FreeBSD if Docker / Kubernetes are implemented in FreeBSD. This could be the straw that broke the camel's back. You argue that the jails are working already great and that they should use them. I argue that the freebsd community could have a more tolerant behavior to the users that could jump to the FreeBSD world and they should not force them to learn only new technologies at first. To have some important tools which work on multiple systems means having a good business card. So,in the end I ask to myself and to you : FreeBSD needs to grow in terms of community ? Does it need to be populated by a bigger number of users that will come from another OS base community ? On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 10:17=E2=80=AFAM Alejandro Imass wrote: > > > On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 4:28=E2=80=AFPM Paul Pathiakis > wrote: > >> I believe the simplest thing would be to wrap jails or iocage in an >> interface that looks like and behaves Docker-like. >> >> > and Bastille! > > >> >> --=20 Mario. --0000000000005bfb2e05f9361146 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The point of my argumentation is not if FreeBSD has o= r not good tools for containerizing and securing applications. It has. Poin= t is that the users that don't know FreeBSD are tied to their own tools= and rarely want to change them. Almost everyone wants to change. But tryin= g,experimenting and changing something in the workflow is important,because= every tool has bad and good sides. There are many docker images already to= be used on the net and this will save a lot of time and effort and money f= or a lot of people. This is a fact. And I think that it happened because Do= cker is...good. FreeBSD has tools like docker,but the mass production of co= ntainerized images never happened. So,would we ask ourselves the reason ? M= aybe something has not gone well. I use Linux and FreeBSD and I "love&= quot; both these systems. Linux has a larger user base than FreeBSD. A larg= er user base may mean more innovations in a small time,a faster bug correct= ion and so on.

I think that mostly advantages= from the implementation of docker on FreeBSD will come from the user base.= Mostly=20 for those users that come from linux or other OS and that already use=20 docker and kubernetes. I don't think those users are a small number.=20 Those users could jump to FreeBSD if Docker / Kubernetes are implemented in FreeBSD. This could be the straw that broke the camel= 's back. You argue that the jails are working already great and = that they should use them. I argue that the freebsd community could have a = more tolerant behavior to the users that could jump to the FreeBSD world and th= ey should not force them to learn only new technologies at first. To have s= ome important tools which work on multiple systems means having a good business card. So,in the=20 end I ask to myself and to you : FreeBSD needs to grow in terms of co= mmunity ? Does it need to be populated by a bigger number of users t= hat will come from another OS base community ?

On= Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 10:17=E2=80=AFAM Alejandro Imass <aimass@yabarana.com> wrote:=


On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 4:28=E2=80=AFPM Paul Pathiak= is <pathiaki2@y= ahoo.com> wrote:
I believe the simplest thing would be to wrap jail= s or iocage in an interface that looks like and behaves Docker-like.
<= div dir=3D"ltr">

and = Bastille!
=C2=A0


--
Mario.
--0000000000005bfb2e05f9361146-- From nobody Thu Apr 13 12:53:55 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Pxzzk5lGZz44xFH for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 12:54:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-yw1-x112e.google.com (mail-yw1-x112e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::112e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Pxzzk2pzKz3KHq for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 12:54:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-yw1-x112e.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-54c12009c30so386918957b3.9 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 05:54:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; t=1681390448; x=1683982448; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=CLqz80zWOl36nT5H6azyQDiz9qeyF+MlTmo4kZywAs4=; b=d7SHgLI2AGO/7yab1UNuixBJK1Xf/cpNveg5fhvVF+7gYC4ybBxmCji609a2DygndA DtE2nto08vCN4ss1OUiuxgQouMshUXf/FTHUigOpmqjqHZNjh5XuuN3D7WyCn4IR6D5i Rf2bn6GCrbPyq6ks7Kl27wBvo4QMNpoAtx2VHcvaun9ljiCz1lmJRxzUwk38L67gSXQ7 ervLHoyfCnvmDEUb/80bEWVr6SusMWAihZxLIE2dCfHW5he2BFpXwJ4w1weBrMRaPWg7 arMIKVMg3fMea+qpzprmzV6Eh7502xg9xNMpYH9ymN0bL/kZ1QeKT2+8RN41Cdd2g8SF w8OQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1681390448; x=1683982448; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=CLqz80zWOl36nT5H6azyQDiz9qeyF+MlTmo4kZywAs4=; b=XUz2FDGEdtar5ihvyuPf9BCo3Ko+AD4oPHGR7l5JHiNdso4IolInBBf+fq5Vh1hSFC WLqu+X6qxjYiAOELqLdJAuMfWFwbvvZkWBh0ywc/RofaJvVK7OnL3g7Ww52fv0L0HtoW 10fAyEtysPXWUpoHMxqyHOn+KzRtt/gvLeNjdhW+TXEwlRiPPf6lE9PV0fYi4tQeafvb hfD6b/3kY36IktegXZtFyTYTlvKCVsxuUGn7iYktTNPZQf8gUxD+ZQFOmCvTL/MDE9kA ZUx2/zyh1w05Z/k2s06j4Ool1cwVmjE83Zoqm8OgMEcXls8hZDNsjLdRQoTbbSPZGGYa pAlw== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9dKXs5Q9myx+TDNWi2AwGykk75jtOegv2mfoeBOx8bt5H/tu31M tZa9sOz/ySAgX/G2PDYGKa50FDbrSTj0Ox9HBME= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350ZOiI8CUcK4Prn+fNzWamb7usR07T6kOhXTSubPfmuGMXfn6QwvpxoS6IJ6v0am3iUWKJIi0g== X-Received: by 2002:a0d:d4ce:0:b0:54e:fd83:143 with SMTP id w197-20020a0dd4ce000000b0054efd830143mr1815015ywd.42.1681390448437; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 05:54:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw1-f169.google.com (mail-yw1-f169.google.com. [209.85.128.169]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 18-20020a810e12000000b0054ef368af47sm428587ywo.116.2023.04.13.05.54.07 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 13 Apr 2023 05:54:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw1-f169.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-54fbb713301so37695067b3.11 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 05:54:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a81:eb14:0:b0:54f:b986:9c60 with SMTP id n20-20020a81eb14000000b0054fb9869c60mr1271704ywm.7.1681390447395; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 05:54:07 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230411044832.10F73170F8@freefall.freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: From: Tomek CEDRO Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2023 14:53:55 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: FreeBSD 13.2-RELEASE Now Available To: TIM KELLERS Cc: questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Pxzzk2pzKz3KHq X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 3:31=E2=80=AFAM TIM KELLERS wrote: > > That's interesting, I'm running VirtualBox 7 on a Mac and I have 13.2-sta= ble running as a guest The Mac, running OS 13 .3.1 is the host. I do reme= mber having to hack around with kext files to get VB to run, but 13.2-stabl= e runs fine as a guest. I'll try building Vbox on the FreeBSD guest and se= e what happens if I use it as a hopst and report back. Thank you Tim :-) I am also using amdgpu + zfs + vbox. There was a report of problems with this configuration, but knowing if it works on other configuration could be helpful. https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D267028 By the way, I would prefer the reversed configuration: to run macOS 13 on FreeBSD host.. as my MBP2015 stopped with updates at macOS 12 and that prevents me from upgrading XCode to 14 :-( I also found this article on bhyve's nice frontend "vm" that I am learning right now.. its not that easy quick use as vbox but when all things work fine adding simple gui could put bhyve ahead and remove all vbox related problems :-) https://klarasystems.com/articles/from-0-to-bhyve-on-freebsd-13-1/ --=20 CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From nobody Thu Apr 13 12:58:51 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Py05v295Bz44xxs for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 12:59:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from miguelmclara@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lj1-x236.google.com (mail-lj1-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::236]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Py05t6J7gz3lD2 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 12:59:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from miguelmclara@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-lj1-x236.google.com with SMTP id n22so13602213ljq.8 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 05:59:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1681390768; x=1683982768; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=WJymTps835dtNC6WrES3mPLOfzACme/tmWRhE0jxq2g=; b=Z0Xjg1g+H1GlduLOvR6itIjH2d+WrF/8u3tME9xq0NeTU+1O+F4oX9O0C/5xl2ty6r Mi5XwssgSIBffPOd1epP0IrQ4nmxEhBs8Z4bO+Yp0adizBh2aO+M4MH5MoXgOTMK7fti zSpDR0Mnx6bACUZQxNzBBEKN47b0vw47wdD1WIVjOFGYD2hNE57/QPJBgmcXJm2CRlu2 fArx4c6osyhmWRuAAGIRSCab162cDC30OIXn7edKSffWyE+4mSLS/JyUzmrTq5JguhHu RRbGLy9/h7CbnTfArm9HsuRXHmD6qTMshgyZ2GbaSrtj0MULxX4O3JpxjTZXJxi3+YQq s5Sg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1681390768; x=1683982768; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=WJymTps835dtNC6WrES3mPLOfzACme/tmWRhE0jxq2g=; b=W97ZGLPgayufwpDDO6e5s+vjPzgWF444RXkK1d+X6R9eR2iXaF4MJbaud2JjBNm2Eo TROiXcfaqliss8n5scaqeE9HgGA9eokvc33rJnYGNch628jr7xe8iyjXhyk9IDlATVPq F0PwviNtbRPoSsN0yRCFWTwE91p4e0KqDpbNv2Wb14AG7fox9nzNhWv4KR1txDdTPhUy DZyn9rvCGNpRuictemK1aU9FPoxnBDCWn7xHxCdLCRABrKKwObmKb8i61hIAXponA6DS y51YlthZKX9muBgyRgiIIkfC47YRgqh0wdhPi8Hxc6jqRgGapmEYtGVYcH1hyMsZHOb9 rfPw== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9eB7BeDpKB+vj5c9H2qh6PGQrK7ZoGMnyOxoFaB7W/JmfD2DBpk 8c9fsYc80IHM/C2UJi6OZUlhp99Zhx76B0jlH8s= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350YMDmnf6scOuWwgIsYkkaYHVXXinvEbUSNh814b5ddg8FU72mqB3TsGWPo745jXDvk8FVIY028RGnmfmDiSAAU= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:90d3:0:b0:2a7:8295:cd00 with SMTP id o19-20020a2e90d3000000b002a78295cd00mr685218ljg.7.1681390768284; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 05:59:28 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: From: Miguel C Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2023 13:58:51 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Docker To: Mario Marietto Cc: Alejandro Imass , Paul Pathiakis , "Steve O'Hara-Smith" , Tim Preston , freebsd-questions Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000078e9d805f9374b2e" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Py05t6J7gz3lD2 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --00000000000078e9d805f9374b2e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 100% Agree with this, and the fact is there have been cases where there is that tolerance and there are maintainers making efforts to bring "linux" things to freeBSD even if via linux emulation. Docker has been mentioned many times in mailing lists and forums and there is always comments like "but why jails are much better" etc, sometimes not only intolerant but rude reply that serve only to drive people away IMHO. I also don't get why is that so complicated, is it just cause FreeBSD's maintainers/community don't want to even consider docker on FreeBSD? Couldn't we just run docker on bhyve? I'm sure it would serve the "just want to test this image purpose" but I suspect there will be some issues with Filesytem/network, not issues per say, but more like it likely takes some work to get this to run in easy manner, but I think I've seen mentions of using sshfs or zvols to make this part easier. MacOS and Windows use virtualization anyway, sure Docker "DESKTOP" is supported but docker, but they are still using a VM at the end of the day and handle the filesystem/network stuff for the user. I've never tried this my self but I don't think it should be that super complicated unless you plan to run docker on prod envs, I think here, the argument that "right tool for the job" is very valid.... I use docker on my macOS but I'm not going to run things in prod in macbooks ofc, I will still use Linux, K8s etc. Perhaps the FreeBSD foundation could invest a bit in getting a tool to easy the way of running docker through bhyve, I do believe this would be good for user adoption, but probably there are other priorities. On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 12:32=E2=80=AFPM Mario Marietto wrote: > The point of my argumentation is not if FreeBSD has or not good tools for > containerizing and securing applications. It has. Point is that the users > that don't know FreeBSD are tied to their own tools and rarely want to > change them. Almost everyone wants to change. But trying,experimenting an= d > changing something in the workflow is important,because every tool has ba= d > and good sides. There are many docker images already to be used on the ne= t > and this will save a lot of time and effort and money for a lot of people= . > This is a fact. And I think that it happened because Docker is...good. > FreeBSD has tools like docker,but the mass production of containerized > images never happened. So,would we ask ourselves the reason ? Maybe > something has not gone well. I use Linux and FreeBSD and I "love" both > these systems. Linux has a larger user base than FreeBSD. A larger user > base may mean more innovations in a small time,a faster bug correction an= d > so on. > > I think that mostly advantages from the implementation of docker on > FreeBSD will come from the user base. Mostly for those users that come fr= om > linux or other OS and that already use docker and kubernetes. I don't thi= nk > those users are a small number. Those users could jump to FreeBSD if Dock= er > / Kubernetes are implemented in FreeBSD. This could be the straw that > broke the camel's back. You argue that the jails are working already > great and that they should use them. I argue that the freebsd community > could have a more tolerant behavior to the users that could jump to the > FreeBSD world and they should not force them to learn only new technologi= es > at first. To have some important tools which work on multiple systems mea= ns > having a good business card. So,in the end I ask to myself and to you : > FreeBSD needs to grow in terms of community ? Does it need to be > populated by a bigger number of users that will come from another OS base > community ? > > On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 10:17=E2=80=AFAM Alejandro Imass > wrote: > >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 4:28=E2=80=AFPM Paul Pathiakis >> wrote: >> >>> I believe the simplest thing would be to wrap jails or iocage in an >>> interface that looks like and behaves Docker-like. >>> >>> >> and Bastille! >> >> >>> >>> > > -- > Mario. > --00000000000078e9d805f9374b2e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
100% Agree with this, and the fact is there= have been cases where there is that tolerance and there are maintainers ma= king efforts to bring "linux" things to freeBSD even if via linux= emulation.

Docker has been mentioned many times i= n mailing lists and forums and there is always comments like "but why = jails are much better" etc, sometimes not only intolerant but rude rep= ly that serve only to drive people away IMHO.

I al= so don't get why is that so complicated, is it just cause FreeBSD's= maintainers/community don't want to even consider docker on FreeBSD? C= ouldn't we just run docker on bhyve? I'm sure it would serve the &q= uot;just want to test this image purpose" but I suspect there will be = some issues with Filesytem/network, not issues per say, but more like it li= kely takes some work to get this to run in easy manner, but I think I'v= e seen mentions of using sshfs or zvols to make this part easier.

MacOS and Windows use virtualization anyway, sure Docker &q= uot;DESKTOP" is supported but docker, but they are still using a VM at= the end of the day and handle the filesystem/network stuff for the user.
I've never tried this my self but I don't think it= should be that super complicated unless you plan to run docker on prod env= s, I think here, the argument that "right tool for the job" is ve= ry valid.... I use docker on my macOS but I'm not going to run things i= n prod in macbooks ofc, I will still use Linux, K8s etc.

Perhaps the FreeBSD foundation could invest a bit in getting a tool to eas= y the way of running docker through bhyve, I do believe this would be good = for user adoption, but probably there are other priorities.



On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 12:32=E2=80=AFPM Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com> wrot= e:
The point of my argumentation is not if FreeBSD has or not good to= ols for containerizing and securing applications. It has. Point is that the= users that don't know FreeBSD are tied to their own tools and rarely w= ant to change them. Almost everyone wants to change. But trying,experimenti= ng and changing something in the workflow is important,because every tool h= as bad and good sides. There are many docker images already to be used on t= he net and this will save a lot of time and effort and money for a lot of p= eople. This is a fact. And I think that it happened because Docker is...goo= d. FreeBSD has tools like docker,but the mass production of containerized i= mages never happened. So,would we ask ourselves the reason ? Maybe somethin= g has not gone well. I use Linux and FreeBSD and I "love" both th= ese systems. Linux has a larger user base than FreeBSD. A larger user base = may mean more innovations in a small time,a faster bug correction and so on= .

I think that mostly advantages from the imp= lementation of docker on FreeBSD will come from the user base. Mostly=20 for those users that come from linux or other OS and that already use=20 docker and kubernetes. I don't think those users are a small number.=20 Those users could jump to FreeBSD if Docker / Kubernetes are implemented in FreeBSD. This could be the straw that broke the camel= 's back. You argue that the jails are working already great and = that they should use them. I argue that the freebsd community could have a = more tolerant behavior to the users that could jump to the FreeBSD world and th= ey should not force them to learn only new technologies at first. To have s= ome important tools which work on multiple systems means having a good business card. So,in the=20 end I ask to myself and to you : FreeBSD needs to grow in terms of co= mmunity ? Does it need to be populated by a bigger number of users t= hat will come from another OS base community ?

On= Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 10:17=E2=80=AFAM Alejandro Imass <aimass@yabarana.com> wrote:=


On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 4:28=E2=80=AFPM Paul Pathiak= is <pathiaki2@y= ahoo.com> wrote:
I believe the simplest thing would be to wrap jail= s or iocage in an interface that looks like and behaves Docker-like.
<= div dir=3D"ltr">

and = Bastille!
=C2=A0


--
Mario.
--00000000000078e9d805f9374b2e-- From nobody Thu Apr 13 12:59:56 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Py0794XhDz44xy4 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 13:00:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from odhiambo@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lf1-x130.google.com (mail-lf1-x130.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::130]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Py0783JYCz3mg5 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 13:00:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from odhiambo@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20221208 header.b=pVEtr13s; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of odhiambo@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::130 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=odhiambo@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com Received: by mail-lf1-x130.google.com with SMTP id 26so2295523lfq.11 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 06:00:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1681390834; x=1683982834; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject :date:message-id:reply-to; bh=0jhdA3VYIDkI4neucKZjpZ4i2fdoYgCp1wkxhyciGkM=; b=pVEtr13sok4oWRH1LO9WDPVNsP3NswE98aCWDYMR1ndD9AX2GyAcrCOcbOD+QJnXHJ YChLazmp3LUuANArP9YvxaLoePu+lh/shGHf1+7rEn/hOn1gIcMdXer1yyoqTVC2SDUj vZHQJYsAme1NMahvzsitp/S6F3cVToS8klNGiqINjb02oyxse7FwNjtzkSf5fCxvgYE/ ZgIR4vvllu3gdR4Tn3XNAd64jARrjkwait9c6psMJ5tlrCFm3xI4Pcalg9bhjRAYPuw+ 356Bgvnjk5bghD8wmIGLd0QK3NaqfrBNBqUCPipBFPNFcnc73NHnOvxOSSSsy15u6hQa a5cQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1681390834; x=1683982834; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:mime-version:x-gm-message-state :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=0jhdA3VYIDkI4neucKZjpZ4i2fdoYgCp1wkxhyciGkM=; b=hEcfsyK5V0F6xLkMHCKWV6js6HtrnfvI5fn3d0E+bmz4E3WVthkqHtAnafCwxFNcE3 JNChBOcuS0O6m8qrsqrcfYWnEfDiekz6z+tXz+CK6ku0hZe62fIIkeIWztpYo+LTlZxG KDanBXnP9/16IATZ04qQf5ReUjB2XrsP4evsalbRoLbVOPsDt35gXbQpL/MvaKi4lwm5 TCQyK29Ac38VhwdOdZyaEq5PtKjKkmUmguVcUFHLemuK+MceJXBUXeTa5A9eF/kSTZ7a WR8vdL/XrIB0sTSkp5iPRld+5WG+lrQC4pr/nGi++pU3YX24boYinMrJRUt6XfgpNJ3g 3AxA== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9eFVwOyp2+2LAhVJTUK6Y0ANtDvQ9qOudK4jvMm9LE1S+/m/ph3 Gy0/WdntnGkmQOTdNtxZilEQ32z1/4xCT+6qCA7y/IIQiS5ubw39 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350bxP9Yg7SPTKwnZmb5BF+ecVqGKuRT5wzWvKoDzB6maPvLa9CgSf6W/fEzHReQKZms6wfLw6nxN9ZmMZMWgnzE= X-Received: by 2002:a19:c203:0:b0:4db:b4:c8d7 with SMTP id l3-20020a19c203000000b004db00b4c8d7mr555616lfc.2.1681390834019; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 06:00:34 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Odhiambo Washington Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2023 15:59:56 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Running logstash on FreeBSD To: questions Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000063f3da05f9374f9c" X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.99 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.991]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20221208]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::130:from]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROMTLD(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Py0783JYCz3mg5 X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --00000000000063f3da05f9374f9c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I hope someone here is running the same. I have installed logstash v8 on FreeBSD 13-RELEASE using the port. For some reason, starting or stopping it prompts me for Kerberos authentication. I am not sure where it is getting this from, although it seems there is some Kerberos config somewhere on this server. I never use it. https://discuss.elastic.co/t/unable-to-start-logstash-on-freebsd/329874/3 I wonder whether there is a way to disable that Kerberos authentication thing. Better still if I can delete anything to do with Kerberos on my server :) --=20 Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254 7 3200 0004/+254 7 2274 3223 "Oh, the cruft.", egrep -v '^$|^.*#' =C2=AF\_(=E3=83=84)_/=C2=AF :-) [How to ask smart questions: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html] --00000000000063f3da05f9374f9c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I hope someone here is running the same.<= /div>

I have installed logstash v8 on FreeBSD 13-RELEASE using= the port.
For some reason, starting or stopping it prompts me fo= r Kerberos authentication.
I am not sure where it is getting this= from, although it seems there is some Kerberos config somewhere on this se= rver. I never use it.


I wonder whether there is a way to dis= able that Kerberos authentication thing. Better still if I can delete anyth= ing to do with Kerberos on my server :)

--
Best regards,
Odhiambo WASHINGTON,
Nairobi,KE
+254 7 32= 00 0004/+254 7 2274 3223
"Oh, the = cruft.",=C2=A0egrep -v '^$|^.*#'=C2=A0=C2=AF\_(=E3=83=84)_/=C2=AF= =C2=A0:-)
[How to ask sma= rt questions:=C2=A0http://www= .catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html]
--00000000000063f3da05f9374f9c-- From nobody Thu Apr 13 13:17:09 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Py0VS0Zzcz450Lf for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 13:17:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from idefix@fechner.net) Received: from anny.lostinspace.de (anny.lostinspace.de [195.30.95.33]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Py0VR17JKz4CbG for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 13:17:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from idefix@fechner.net) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=fechner.net header.s=default header.b=HFTHouWx; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of idefix@fechner.net designates 195.30.95.33 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=idefix@fechner.net; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=fechner.net Received: from server.idefix.lan (unknown [93.182.104.69]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: idefix@fechner.net) by anny.lostinspace.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2D48693D50 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 15:17:15 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fechner.net; s=default; t=1681391835; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=jSS1RHkATRbtMhUQySYWWSfxuooARoRZaJphBlOEA7Y=; b=HFTHouWxUtNofD+tiXwtPlAP7/idH1xOgEZCQR+d6k1spKUpKXgWglGXaNaLamtZQR1ucR kC0VLMnpvcFmAeZwrR7T+Wj+eLfNFrvBClUYVS0pDVd+0pqG00CkjpiOsxOeVkg8E/PB3t MStik5jRyz93ulVySQBa3zz5//aTfDE= Received: from [192.168.0.151] (idefix.idefix.lan [192.168.0.151]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (P-256) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by server.idefix.lan (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 81BE2C3F1D1 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 16:17:13 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <12328b93-23bb-49cc-1edd-42f4989062d3@fechner.net> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2023 16:17:09 +0300 List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.9.1 Subject: Re: FreeBSD 13.2-RELEASE Now Available Content-Language: en-US To: questions@freebsd.org References: <20230411044832.10F73170F8@freefall.freebsd.org> From: Matthias Fechner In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Action: no action X-Rspamd-Server: anny.lostinspace.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.70 / 15.00]; DWL_DNSWL_MED(-2.00)[fechner.net:dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; RCVD_DKIM_ARC_DNSWL_MED(-0.50)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[fechner.net,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[195.30.95.33:from]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[fechner.net:s=default]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; ASN(0.00)[asn:5539, ipnet:195.30.0.0/16, country:DE]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[fechner.net:+]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Py0VR17JKz4CbG X-Spamd-Bar: ------ X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N Am 13.04.2023 um 15:53 schrieb Tomek CEDRO: > I am also using amdgpu + zfs + vbox. There was a report of problems > with this configuration, but knowing if it works on other > configuration could be helpful. > > https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=267028 > > By the way, I would prefer the reversed configuration: to run macOS 13 > on FreeBSD host.. as my MBP2015 stopped with updates at macOS 12 and > that prevents me from upgrading XCode to 14 🙁 > > I also found this article on bhyve's nice frontend "vm" that I am > learning right now.. its not that easy quick use as vbox but when all > things work fine adding simple gui could put bhyve ahead and remove > all vbox related problems 😄 > > https://klarasystems.com/articles/from-0-to-bhyve-on-freebsd-13-1/ You maybe want to check also CBSD. You can write files like for vagrant to spin up jails and/or VMs. Or just use a console based UI or just command options. Very handy tool. It can do much more like handling complete clusters. There is a telegram group existing where questions are answered. Gruß Matthias -- "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the universe is winning." -- Rich Cook From nobody Thu Apr 13 13:21:43 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Py0cG0qtBz450tD for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 13:22:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yw1-x1133.google.com (mail-yw1-x1133.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1133]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Py0cF4dH4z4MY2 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 13:22:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-yw1-x1133.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-54fbee98814so33176957b3.8 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 06:22:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1681392140; x=1683984140; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=wuKrpdg0k8Wc7o48N9uHCqV0caKJUuhhmPRS8LWo/Ac=; b=FLwcmUapsukTwGj65GyniJ4QnBXwXXGRbKhy9j9Sfyknen4IoN7owxIvNAhcjSIeGu ISW5T3MaNz8j3lIjFnraSd2g/NXm3HYFZfeASfYrCIjiGKbV5dPyycL4AllcTChotZCh 1VIbAOhxk+z5e1GWCPJiVMBjDd4SuKmXYXyvP1m8FqJzxfUSO+vSyr6WVKvBMMeZZNhx UVN+huKSHxB6rOYk2u8/MjvNd5rpBWwRhnutH7qDuO79qIn5x2U9CTC+Eul4t4Woh3UC viv19CQU2T8oJrqHW3zP15v6WP4ZTwlNb3DrKYxtURdKB5IQdvKuTdLxA1PVkFTM6h2g 02iQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1681392140; x=1683984140; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=wuKrpdg0k8Wc7o48N9uHCqV0caKJUuhhmPRS8LWo/Ac=; b=b5dGIRcuVUopM5wl15UKUWUl90WYPGWoVM9Sj++SqIvQEfeB9Ep/T6OTEwlwyC5ggA zwKA/3M+BgZoEoxjzTx+OEVjdkV8yt/YFBmqfurHjOcH+jm+xs9JmNVlmPxqUzaVOBe7 69kpuGF3YT4O2uQ4b2zkcoi0oTyelhAIud6vAfZYcL8jqqwE/F58i3HWc1NAEFIDn/ls +ooK1hgQl3sRa/zNtfOrZIDwdUTTsS28yebycFLX/JIMwoQ5z4Y/pVjX/vFs7L9kbYh6 72cEaBiqIml4sJgFea0lAMvihxUzzgt48UG8m0taPCFsiZAghIhzbDMqOgVV7drUmLUZ 3bSg== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9e+IPVVxg0Lt/qmSilrnQpV5mo2FTAR9/9/JU23/UWDkVe84n8Y M+2Tzd6WOlW0UO5uP0M9VVccWOYuccSBsV1a9Ek= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350bcVP/s1O/GkPOL4I/BzORLLPmwUpUhUwoh8sE/QkhvJ10vNEal6izDuheX89HkUTJIfj0xvDGB4yqXCojQH5E= X-Received: by 2002:a0d:ec02:0:b0:54c:2723:560d with SMTP id q2-20020a0dec02000000b0054c2723560dmr1376933ywn.3.1681392140275; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 06:22:20 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: From: Mario Marietto Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2023 15:21:43 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Docker To: Miguel C Cc: Alejandro Imass , Paul Pathiakis , "Steve O'Hara-Smith" , Tim Preston , freebsd-questions Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003fd33b05f9379d26" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Py0cF4dH4z4MY2 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --0000000000003fd33b05f9379d26 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ---> Couldn't we just run docker on bhyve? more no than yes. You could try to put yourself in other people's shoes. You are only moving the problem. You are indirectly asking the users that come from another system to learn bhyve if they want to use docker. Why should they learn something different to just use what they need ? At this point they could jump directly to learn jails,instead of bhyve and / or docker. To learn something different requires time,energy,etc. This is not a good business card for the new users. And it implicitly admits that a useful and popular tool like docker doesn't work on an efficient operating system like FreeBSD. Yes there are great tools like docker for freebsd, but those users don't need it, they just want docker. Maybe they don't even need to learn bhyve. Just Docker. Your reasoning is typical of someone who has been using freebsd for some time, you don't think like those users who would like to adopt it and are evaluating the pros and cons. Take also in consideration that running bhyve to run Docker is a waste of resources on the machine,if I want to run only Docker,because in a normal situation,I shouldn't have the need to use bhyve. Users that have already boarded FreeBSD have probably already come to appreciate jails and many of them don't need to run bhyve to get docker. Remember the focus of my argumentation : it is something like this : I offer a native implementation of docker on FreeBSD and I use it as bait to attract more users. And between those users maybe there will be also good developers that will love FreeBSD even for different reasons than docker. The ultimate goal is to make freebsd a little more attractive to the industry, because as far as I read, it's slowly disappearing. On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 2:59=E2=80=AFPM Miguel C w= rote: > 100% Agree with this, and the fact is there have been cases where there i= s > that tolerance and there are maintainers making efforts to bring "linux" > things to freeBSD even if via linux emulation. > > Docker has been mentioned many times in mailing lists and forums and ther= e > is always comments like "but why jails are much better" etc, sometimes no= t > only intolerant but rude reply that serve only to drive people away IMHO. > > I also don't get why is that so complicated, is it just cause FreeBSD's > maintainers/community don't want to even consider docker on FreeBSD? > Couldn't we just run docker on bhyve? I'm sure it would serve the "just > want to test this image purpose" but I suspect there will be some issues > with Filesytem/network, not issues per say, but more like it likely takes > some work to get this to run in easy manner, but I think I've seen mentio= ns > of using sshfs or zvols to make this part easier. > > MacOS and Windows use virtualization anyway, sure Docker "DESKTOP" is > supported but docker, but they are still using a VM at the end of the day > and handle the filesystem/network stuff for the user. > > I've never tried this my self but I don't think it should be that super > complicated unless you plan to run docker on prod envs, I think here, the > argument that "right tool for the job" is very valid.... I use docker on = my > macOS but I'm not going to run things in prod in macbooks ofc, I will sti= ll > use Linux, K8s etc. > > Perhaps the FreeBSD foundation could invest a bit in getting a tool to > easy the way of running docker through bhyve, I do believe this would be > good for user adoption, but probably there are other priorities. > > > > On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 12:32=E2=80=AFPM Mario Marietto > wrote: > >> The point of my argumentation is not if FreeBSD has or not good tools fo= r >> containerizing and securing applications. It has. Point is that the user= s >> that don't know FreeBSD are tied to their own tools and rarely want to >> change them. Almost everyone wants to change. But trying,experimenting a= nd >> changing something in the workflow is important,because every tool has b= ad >> and good sides. There are many docker images already to be used on the n= et >> and this will save a lot of time and effort and money for a lot of peopl= e. >> This is a fact. And I think that it happened because Docker is...good. >> FreeBSD has tools like docker,but the mass production of containerized >> images never happened. So,would we ask ourselves the reason ? Maybe >> something has not gone well. I use Linux and FreeBSD and I "love" both >> these systems. Linux has a larger user base than FreeBSD. A larger user >> base may mean more innovations in a small time,a faster bug correction a= nd >> so on. >> >> I think that mostly advantages from the implementation of docker on >> FreeBSD will come from the user base. Mostly for those users that come f= rom >> linux or other OS and that already use docker and kubernetes. I don't th= ink >> those users are a small number. Those users could jump to FreeBSD if Doc= ker >> / Kubernetes are implemented in FreeBSD. This could be the straw that >> broke the camel's back. You argue that the jails are working already >> great and that they should use them. I argue that the freebsd community >> could have a more tolerant behavior to the users that could jump to the >> FreeBSD world and they should not force them to learn only new technolog= ies >> at first. To have some important tools which work on multiple systems me= ans >> having a good business card. So,in the end I ask to myself and to you : >> FreeBSD needs to grow in terms of community ? Does it need to be >> populated by a bigger number of users that will come from another OS bas= e >> community ? >> >> On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 10:17=E2=80=AFAM Alejandro Imass >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 4:28=E2=80=AFPM Paul Pathiakis >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I believe the simplest thing would be to wrap jails or iocage in an >>>> interface that looks like and behaves Docker-like. >>>> >>>> >>> and Bastille! >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >> >> -- >> Mario. >> > --=20 Mario. --0000000000003fd33b05f9379d26 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
---> Couldn't we just run docker on bhyve?

more no than yes. You could try to put yourself in other people's shoes. You are on= ly moving the problem. You are indirectly asking the users that come from a= nother system to learn bhyve if they want to use docker. Why should they le= arn something different to just use what they need ? At this point they cou= ld jump directly to learn jails,instead of bhyve and / or docker. To learn = something different requires time,energy,etc. This is not a good business c= ard for the new users. And = it implicitly admits that a useful and popular tool like docker doesn't= work on an efficient operating system like FreeBSD. Yes there are great tools like docker for freebsd= , but those users don't need it, they just want docker. Maybe they don&= #39;t even need to learn bhyve. Just Docker. Your reasoning is typical of someone who has been using f= reebsd for some time, you don't think like those users who would like t= o adopt it and are evaluating the pros and cons. Take also in consideration= that running bhyve to run Docker is a waste of resources on the machine,if= I want to run only Docker,because in a normal situation,I shouldn't ha= ve the need to use bhyve. Users that have already boarded FreeBSD have probably already come to apprec= iate jails and many of them don't need to run bhyve to get docker. Reme= mber the focus of my argumentation : it is something like this : I offer a = native implementation of docker on FreeBSD and I use it as bait to attract = more users. And between those users maybe there will be also good developer= s that will love FreeBSD even for different reasons than docker. The ultima= te goal is to make freebsd = a little more attractive to the industry, because as far as I read, it'= s slowly disappearing.

<= /div>


On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 2:59=E2=80=AFPM Miguel C <miguelmclara@gmail.com> wrot= e:
100% Agree with this, and the fact is there have been ca= ses where there is that tolerance and there are maintainers making efforts = to bring "linux" things to freeBSD even if via linux emulation.

Docker has been mentioned many times in mailing lis= ts and forums and there is always comments like "but why jails are muc= h better" etc, sometimes not only intolerant but rude reply that serve= only to drive people away IMHO.

I also don't = get why is that so complicated, is it just cause FreeBSD's maintainers/= community don't want to even consider docker on FreeBSD? Couldn't w= e just run docker on bhyve? I'm sure it would serve the "just want= to test this image purpose" but I suspect there will be some issues w= ith Filesytem/network, not issues per say, but more like it likely takes so= me work to get this to run in easy manner, but I think I've seen mentio= ns of using sshfs or zvols to make this part easier.

MacOS and Windows use virtualization anyway, sure Docker "DESKTOP&q= uot; is supported but docker, but they are still using a VM at the end of t= he day and handle the filesystem/network stuff for the user.

<= div>I've never tried this my self but I don't think it should be th= at super complicated unless you plan to run docker on prod envs, I think he= re, the argument that "right tool for the job" is very valid.... = I use docker on my macOS but I'm not going to run things in prod in mac= books ofc, I will still use Linux, K8s etc.

Perhaps the = FreeBSD foundation could invest a bit in getting a tool to easy the way of = running docker through bhyve, I do believe this would be good for user adop= tion, but probably there are other priorities.


=

= On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 12:32=E2=80=AFPM Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com>= wrote:
The point of my argumentation is not if FreeBSD has or not go= od tools for containerizing and securing applications. It has. Point is tha= t the users that don't know FreeBSD are tied to their own tools and rar= ely want to change them. Almost everyone wants to change. But trying,experi= menting and changing something in the workflow is important,because every t= ool has bad and good sides. There are many docker images already to be used= on the net and this will save a lot of time and effort and money for a lot= of people. This is a fact. And I think that it happened because Docker is.= ..good. FreeBSD has tools like docker,but the mass production of containeri= zed images never happened. So,would we ask ourselves the reason ? Maybe som= ething has not gone well. I use Linux and FreeBSD and I "love" bo= th these systems. Linux has a larger user base than FreeBSD. A larger user = base may mean more innovations in a small time,a faster bug correction and = so on.

I think that mostly advantages from th= e implementation of docker on FreeBSD will come from the user base. Mostly= =20 for those users that come from linux or other OS and that already use=20 docker and kubernetes. I don't think those users are a small number.=20 Those users could jump to FreeBSD if Docker / Kubernetes are implemented in FreeBSD. This could be the straw that broke the camel= 's back. You argue that the jails are working already great and = that they should use them. I argue that the freebsd community could have a = more tolerant behavior to the users that could jump to the FreeBSD world and th= ey should not force them to learn only new technologies at first. To have s= ome important tools which work on multiple systems means having a good business card. So,in the=20 end I ask to myself and to you : FreeBSD needs to grow in terms of co= mmunity ? Does it need to be populated by a bigger number of users t= hat will come from another OS base community ?

On= Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 10:17=E2=80=AFAM Alejandro Imass <aimass@yabarana.com> wrote:=


On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 4:28=E2=80=AFPM Paul Pathiak= is <pathiaki2@y= ahoo.com> wrote:
I believe the simplest thing would be to wrap jail= s or iocage in an interface that looks like and behaves Docker-like.
<= div dir=3D"ltr">

and = Bastille!
=C2=A0


--
Mario.


--
Mario.
--0000000000003fd33b05f9379d26-- From nobody Thu Apr 13 13:22:40 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Py0ck2RQLz4519G for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 13:22:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4fe000432d72e.e108435032d1bdd912ddb0e17f484320@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Py0cj3p35z4NG2 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 13:22:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4fe000432d72e.e108435032d1bdd912ddb0e17f484320@email-od.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1681392166; x=1683984166; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info:subject:to:from:cc:reply-to; bh=uAUyCnwWJe8UB8rqQMYwURcplDjLR2rg7QzX0IC9Xgs=; b=CkclNi+5GsNlhv3+RpVt10U1HoOCkdnZtE0uas5861wRMR7qu8vRmDGqZCFSWxWD9o7/On+/fMYMng5LQWqNz1VcGvwmyg48j1wiwMQsKkq8RZDULWurMKjlXwS5qeAPjcBZ55dkWCNi6hkoF5kRASr6n37ISIlP/cQygd+1YJo= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi4xZDRmZTAwMDQzMmQ3MmUuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r3.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r3.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.191.3]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Thu, 13 Apr 2023 09:22:44 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (86-42-20-118-dynamic.b-ras1.bdt.dublin.eircom.net [86.42.20.118]) by r3.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Thu, 13 Apr 2023 09:22:42 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.95 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1pmwuP-000JGg-5h; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 14:22:41 +0100 Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2023 14:22:40 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Mario Marietto Cc: Alejandro Imass , Paul Pathiakis , Tim Preston , freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Docker Message-Id: <20230413142240.11d3b8c6baab7286678f3de2@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.33; amd64-portbld-freebsd13.1) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Py0cj3p35z4NG2 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 13:31:02 +0200 Mario Marietto wrote: > The point of my argumentation is not if FreeBSD has or not good tools for > containerizing and securing applications. It has. Point is that the users > that don't know FreeBSD are tied to their own tools and rarely want to > change them. Almost everyone wants to change. But trying,experimenting and > changing something in the workflow is important,because every tool has bad > and good sides. There are many docker images already to be used on the net > and this will save a lot of time and effort and money for a lot of people. The problem with using the docker images available online is that these are *linux* filesystem overlay images. Docker only provides the mechanism for creating and assembling those images into runtime environments. The business of running them is handled by LXC via containerd. So in order to achieve what you want there would need to be: 1: Support for jails in containerd or support for LXC on FreeBSD. 2: Support for a *lot* more of the up to date Linux system calls (current emulation is for a 4.4.0 kernel. 3: Support for the filesystem layering used by Docker. 4: (the easy bit) A port of docker. This comes up a lot - but nobody ever wants to do the work which is why it never happens. It appears that none of the FreeBSD developers want this (fair enough they have other things on their minds and FreeBSD is a volunteer effort), and that none of the people who want this care enough to step up and do the work or raise a fund to pay someone to do it. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From nobody Thu Apr 13 13:28:58 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Py0m8576Wz451bs for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 13:29:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-yw1-x1133.google.com (mail-yw1-x1133.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1133]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Py0m838JWz4YyR for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 13:29:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-yw1-x1133.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-54fbb713301so39629097b3.11 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 06:29:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; t=1681392552; x=1683984552; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=E3WMnDl8JfQkRinAA5D/9Y4TXy5Xc3MGKK0YxhA2Dh4=; b=J2yzg/oBcENXhub6fhGApZCt7p21chlrWDYYskaySH635FWlaO0PBW1ZlvwOBChJ2v V9UhvtaungNbB1fkab+qYkICz1a/NQSOyog9r6SSITCMG9+m4b7dRiMAluvFEpVf1s4v JQ2j2jqSmTqJLGzS/n2oR8KI0wdsZvpjs4gqleZwNdQfpdQR3xd6nhTVx/hy+vLRmGCS k2ZY04bLoUQ2irXAgg1CDZB1MopQI0Bkh2XgyC7iWpMDbvxNJsbLTqnzwz51jO/LKTnc IYxqCIhxhzDNkZMYkp/Fp3J858FHOH7kG5RBUAKTloHky78CW68fXwRp5xSFraW6HYpZ /cjw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1681392552; x=1683984552; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=E3WMnDl8JfQkRinAA5D/9Y4TXy5Xc3MGKK0YxhA2Dh4=; b=c3B3Vtf/jFxfE0GrO3+lw8NyLbYKwHsH2sW65UbWH3da/iFPuOaUhqQxqAmp1GD+1r DeW97I4lI7aUmX0udn/KqTD2uqv4o2+Kd7PI4CVJzewcIE0kw3yEwEqFZwQVYpRuOTH9 d/wNuT+nEa6ygjG3YDNclhnXRb1ea7G/NLUERAIyGWGnqVRLyY1fCZKcdbXxbcI0K9fN ATgyofVyOngDjCO2OARpD/9Fc1ajeY+PckhJfBlW0p0fZarz0n27rOGoLp+bYkTdiSG2 4seuJmmoTqjtkG1/fdfBvn1qOb2tMSAe9YFAhm1h9U9d51TvtlRY8J1ybpxAc1GuhEO6 1fNQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9dpeVjnRkB3ctFtcbVCRNPVuLsjndqGy7fZuiON/eLbWeF4ivjI HpfZSM01g/eQv7+zuIIf3DBuZtRF2IsBfhigQwk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350YMUGDMOp6tDB+JzQRMW/5M59B5lEwtFp7eiXVFEDBnuiZpvJ99qwdE6IrvkO8AZ1puhIRbDA== X-Received: by 2002:a0d:c5c4:0:b0:54b:eb40:411a with SMTP id h187-20020a0dc5c4000000b0054beb40411amr1726982ywd.15.1681392551828; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 06:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-f180.google.com (mail-yb1-f180.google.com. [209.85.219.180]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id cl22-20020a05690c0c1600b0054fbadd96c4sm437817ywb.126.2023.04.13.06.29.11 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 13 Apr 2023 06:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-f180.google.com with SMTP id y16so227805ybb.2 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 06:29:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a25:cfce:0:b0:b8f:54f5:89ff with SMTP id f197-20020a25cfce000000b00b8f54f589ffmr1380039ybg.11.1681392550989; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 06:29:10 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230411044832.10F73170F8@freefall.freebsd.org> <12328b93-23bb-49cc-1edd-42f4989062d3@fechner.net> In-Reply-To: <12328b93-23bb-49cc-1edd-42f4989062d3@fechner.net> From: Tomek CEDRO Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2023 15:28:58 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: FreeBSD 13.2-RELEASE Now Available To: Matthias Fechner Cc: questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Py0m838JWz4YyR X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 3:17=E2=80=AFPM Matthias Fechner wrote: > Am 13.04.2023 um 15:53 schrieb Tomek CEDRO: > > I also found this article on bhyve's nice frontend "vm" that I am > > learning right now.. its not that easy quick use as vbox but when all > > things work fine adding simple gui could put bhyve ahead and remove > > all vbox related problems =F0=9F=98=84 > > > > https://klarasystems.com/articles/from-0-to-bhyve-on-freebsd-13-1/ > > You maybe want to check also CBSD. You can write files like for vagrant > to spin up jails and/or VMs. > Or just use a console based UI or just command options. > > Very handy tool. > It can do much more like handling complete clusters. > There is a telegram group existing where questions are answered. Thanks Matthias! Looks like a powerful tool :-) For now I just need a quick testing ground with easy setup / snapshot mainly to crosscompile and test code on various platforms using FreeBSD as the host nothing fancy :-) I will keep in CBSD mind for a bigger solutions, thanks again :-) --=20 CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From nobody Thu Apr 13 14:00:25 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Py1SJ2n87z453nt for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 14:00:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic318-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic318-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.186.82]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Py1SH3JYgz4K6r for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 14:00:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; 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Thu, 13 Apr 2023 14:00:29 +0000 Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2023 14:00:25 +0000 (UTC) From: Paul Pathiakis To: Miguel C , Mario Marietto Cc: Alejandro Imass , Steve O'Hara-Smith , Tim Preston , freebsd-questions Message-ID: <543289768.3317542.1681394425362@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Docker List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3317541_1854442059.1681394425359" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21365 YMailNorrin X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Py1SH3JYgz4K6r X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N ------=_Part_3317541_1854442059.1681394425359 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I guess my opinion at this point is to drop this.=C2=A0 I don't see a vali= d point for diverting resources and various other things to accommodate 'do= cker' or many other things that are dependent on 'linuxisms'.=C2=A0 Where d= oes it stop?=C2=A0 Do we start porting everything from Windows as well?=C2= =A0 My point is there are many things in many OSes and variants thereof, th= at have hooks into proprietary parts of the kernel that are not 'modular'.= =C2=A0 By modular, I mean that they can be compiled and used on another OS = like most things in the ports/pkgs system.=C2=A0 Since this is 'kernel' lev= el, I don't think FreeBSD should pursue such an endeavor with the limited r= esources at hand.=C2=A0 The FreeBSD kernel and userland are a thing of beau= ty and refinement imho.=C2=A0 All I have to do is look at the CVE database = to see that in the last 10 years there only a couple of hundred bugs.=C2=A0= Just the linux KERNEL has 1000s as does windows.=C2=A0 I would worry that = anything that had ties into the Linux kernel is probably an issue waiting t= o happen. I've been doing system administration and system architecture for over 35 y= ears...=C2=A0 When people ask what the dominant *nix OS is and are expectin= g Linux.... It starts us down the road of all the big boys use FreeBSD beca= use they can't afford to have constant patching and vulnerabilities. So, it's either in a hypervisor and we go from there or drop it.=C2=A0 The = amount of time spent on this discussion is becoming 'trollish' Paul On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 08:23:35 AM GMT-5, Mario Marietto wrote: =20 =20 ---> Couldn't we just run docker on bhyve? more no than yes. You could try to put yourself in other people's shoes. Yo= u are only moving the problem. You are indirectly asking the users that com= e from another system to learn bhyve if they want to use docker. Why should= they learn something different to just use what they need ? At this point = they could jump directly to learn jails,instead of bhyve and / or docker. T= o learn something different requires time,energy,etc. This is not a good bu= siness card for the new users. And it implicitly admits that a useful and p= opular tool like docker doesn't work on an efficient operating system like = FreeBSD. Yes there are great tools like docker for freebsd, but those users= don't need it, they just want docker. Maybe they don't even need to learn = bhyve. Just Docker. Your reasoning is typical of someone who has been using= freebsd for some time, you don't think like those users who would like to = adopt it and are evaluating the pros and cons. Take also in consideration t= hat running bhyve to run Docker is a waste of resources on the machine,if I= want to run only Docker,because in a normal situation,I shouldn't have the= need to use bhyve. Users that have already boarded FreeBSD have probably a= lready come to appreciate jails and many of them don't need to run bhyve to= get docker. Remember the focus of my argumentation : it is something like = this : I offer a native implementation of docker on FreeBSD and I use it as= bait to attract more users. And between those users maybe there will be al= so good developers that will love FreeBSD even for different reasons than d= ocker. The ultimate goal is to make freebsd a little more attractive to the= industry, because as far as I read, it's slowly disappearing. On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 2:59=E2=80=AFPM Miguel C w= rote: 100% Agree with this, and the fact is there have been cases where there is = that tolerance and there are maintainers making efforts to bring "linux" th= ings to freeBSD even if via linux emulation. Docker has been mentioned many times in mailing lists and forums and there = is always comments like "but why jails are much better" etc, sometimes not = only intolerant but rude reply that serve only to drive people away IMHO. I also don't get why is that so complicated, is it just cause FreeBSD's mai= ntainers/community don't want to even consider docker on FreeBSD? Couldn't = we just run docker on bhyve? I'm sure it would serve the "just want to test= this image purpose" but I suspect there will be some issues with Filesytem= /network, not issues per say, but more like it likely takes some work to ge= t this to run in easy manner, but I think I've seen mentions of using sshfs= or zvols to make this part easier. MacOS and Windows use virtualization anyway, sure Docker "DESKTOP" is suppo= rted but docker, but they are still using a VM at the end of the day and ha= ndle the filesystem/network stuff for the user. I've never tried this my self but I don't think it should be that super com= plicated unless you plan to run docker on prod envs, I think here, the argu= ment that "right tool for the job" is very valid.... I use docker on my mac= OS but I'm not going to run things in prod in macbooks ofc, I will still us= e Linux, K8s etc. Perhaps the FreeBSD foundation could invest a bit in getting a tool to easy= the way of running docker through bhyve, I do believe this would be good f= or user adoption, but probably there are other priorities. On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 12:32=E2=80=AFPM Mario Marietto wrote: The point of my argumentation is not if FreeBSD has or not good tools for c= ontainerizing and securing applications. It has. Point is that the users th= at don't know FreeBSD are tied to their own tools and rarely want to change= them. Almost everyone wants to change. But trying,experimenting and changi= ng something in the workflow is important,because every tool has bad and go= od sides. There are many docker images already to be used on the net and th= is will save a lot of time and effort and money for a lot of people. This i= s a fact. And I think that it happened because Docker is...good. FreeBSD ha= s tools like docker,but the mass production of containerized images never h= appened. So,would we ask ourselves the reason ? Maybe something has not gon= e well. I use Linux and FreeBSD and I "love" both these systems. Linux has = a larger user base than FreeBSD. A larger user base may mean more innovatio= ns in a small time,a faster bug correction and so on.=20 I think that mostly advantages from the implementation of docker on FreeBSD= will come from the user base. Mostly for those users that come from linux = or other OS and that already use docker and kubernetes. I don't think those= users are a small number. Those users could jump to FreeBSD if Docker / Ku= bernetes are implemented in FreeBSD. This could be the straw that broke the= camel's back. You argue that the jails are working already great and that = they should use them. I argue that the freebsd community could have a more = tolerant behavior to the users that could jump to the FreeBSD world and the= y should not force them to learn only new technologies at first. To have so= me important tools which work on multiple systems means having a good busin= ess card. So,in the end I ask to myself and to you : FreeBSD needs to grow = in terms of community ? Does it need to be populated by a bigger number of = users that will come from another OS base community ?=20 On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 10:17=E2=80=AFAM Alejandro Imass wrote: On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 4:28=E2=80=AFPM Paul Pathiakis wrote: I believe the simplest thing would be to wrap jails or iocage in an interf= ace that looks like and behaves Docker-like. and Bastille!=C2=A0 --=20 Mario. --=20 Mario. =20 ------=_Part_3317541_1854442059.1681394425359 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I guess my opinion at this p= oint is to drop this.  I don't see a valid point for diverting resourc= es and various other things to accommodate 'docker' or many other things th= at are dependent on 'linuxisms'.  Where does it stop?  Do we star= t porting everything from Windows as well?  My point is there are many= things in many OSes and variants thereof, that have hooks into proprietary= parts of the kernel that are not 'modular'.  By modular, I mean that = they can be compiled and used on another OS like most things in the ports/p= kgs system.  Since this is 'kernel' level, I don't think FreeBSD shoul= d pursue such an endeavor with the limited resources at hand.  The Fre= eBSD kernel and userland are a thing of beauty and refinement imho.  A= ll I have to do is look at the CVE database to see that in the last 10 year= s there only a couple of hundred bugs.  Just the linux KERNEL has 1000= s as does windows.  I would worry that anything that had ties into the= Linux kernel is probably an issue waiting to happen.

I'v= e been doing system administration and system architecture for over 35 year= s...  When people ask what the dominant *nix OS is and are expecting L= inux.... It starts us down the road of all the big boys use FreeBSD because= they can't afford to have constant patching and vulnerabilities.

So, it's either in a hypervisor and we go from there or drop it.=   The amount of time spent on this discussion is becoming 'trollish'

Paul

=20
=20
On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 08:23:35 AM GMT-5, Mario= Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com> wrote:


---> Couldn't we just run docker on bhyve?

more no than yes. You could try to put yourself in other people'= s shoes. You are only moving the problem. You are indirectly asking the use= rs that come from another system to learn bhyve if they want to use docker.= Why should they learn something different to just use what they need ? At = this point they could jump directly to learn jails,instead of bhyve and / o= r docker. To learn something different requires time,energy,etc. This is no= t a good business card for the new users. And it implicitly admits that a usef= ul and popular tool like docker doesn't work on an efficient operating syst= em like FreeBSD. Yes there are great tools like docker for freebsd, but those = users don't need it, they just want docker. Maybe they don't even need to l= earn bhyve. Just Docker. Your reasoning is typical of someone who has been usi= ng freebsd for some time, you don't think like those users who would like t= o adopt it and are evaluating the pros and cons. Take also in consideration= that running bhyve to run Docker is a waste of resources on the machine,if= I want to run only Docker,because in a normal situation,I shouldn't have t= he need to use bhyve. Users that have already boarded FreeBSD have probably al= ready come to appreciate jails and many of them don't need to run bhyve to = get docker. Remember the focus of my argumentation : it is something like t= his : I offer a native implementation of docker on FreeBSD and I use it as = bait to attract more users. And between those users maybe there will be als= o good developers that will love FreeBSD even for different reasons than do= cker. The ultimate goal is to make freebsd a little more attractive to the ind= ustry, because as far as I read, it's slowly disappearing.



On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 2:59=E2=80=AFPM M= iguel C <miguelmclara@gmail.com> wrote:
100% Agree with this, and t= he fact is there have been cases where there is that tolerance and there ar= e maintainers making efforts to bring "linux" things to freeBSD even if via= linux emulation.

Docker has been m= entioned many times in mailing lists and forums and there is always comment= s like "but why jails are much better" etc, sometimes not only intolerant b= ut rude reply that serve only to drive people away IMHO.

I also don't get why is that so complicated, is it ju= st cause FreeBSD's maintainers/community don't want to even consider docker= on FreeBSD? Couldn't we just run docker on bhyve? I'm sure it would serve = the "just want to test this image purpose" but I suspect there will be some= issues with Filesytem/network, not issues per say, but more like it likely= takes some work to get this to run in easy manner, but I think I've seen m= entions of using sshfs or zvols to make this part easier.

MacOS and Windows use virtualization anyway, sure Do= cker "DESKTOP" is supported but docker, but they are still using a VM at th= e end of the day and handle the filesystem/network stuff for the user.

I've never tried this my self b= ut I don't think it should be that super complicated unless you plan to run= docker on prod envs, I think here, the argument that "right tool for the j= ob" is very valid.... I use docker on my macOS but I'm not going to run thi= ngs in prod in macbooks ofc, I will still use Linux, K8s etc.

Perhaps the FreeBSD foundation could in= vest a bit in getting a tool to easy the way of running docker through bhyv= e, I do believe this would be good for user adoption, but probably there ar= e other priorities.



On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 12:32=E2=80=AFPM Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com> wrote:
The point of my argumentation is not if FreeBSD has or no= t good tools for containerizing and securing applications. It has. Point is= that the users that don't know FreeBSD are tied to their own tools and rar= ely want to change them. Almost everyone wants to change. But trying,experi= menting and changing something in the workflow is important,because every t= ool has bad and good sides. There are many docker images already to be used= on the net and this will save a lot of time and effort and money for a lot= of people. This is a fact. And I think that it happened because Docker is.= ..good. FreeBSD has tools like docker,but the mass production of containeri= zed images never happened. So,would we ask ourselves the reason ? Maybe som= ething has not gone well. I use Linux and FreeBSD and I "love" both these s= ystems. Linux has a larger user base than FreeBSD. A larger user base may m= ean more innovations in a small time,a faster bug correction and so on.

I think that mostl= y advantages from the implementation of docker on FreeBSD will come from th= e user base. Mostly=20 for those users that come from linux or other OS and that already use=20 docker and kubernetes. I don't think those users are a small number.=20 Those users could jump to FreeBSD if Docker / Kubernetes are implemented in FreeBSD. This could be the straw that broke the camel= 's back. You argue that the jails are working already great and that= they should use them. I argue that the freebsd community could have a more= tolerant behavior to the users that could jump to the FreeBSD world and th= ey should not force them to learn only new technologies at first. To have s= ome important tools which work on multiple systems means having a good business card. So,in the=20 end I ask to myself and to you : FreeBSD needs to grow in terms of co= mmunity ? Does it need to be populated by a bigger number of users t= hat will come from another OS base community ?

<= div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"ydpa1dd3db9yiv6427533293gmail_attr">On Thu, Apr 13= , 2023 at 10:17=E2=80=AFAM Alejandro Imass <aimass@yabaran= a.com> wrote:


On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 4:28=E2=80=AFPM Paul Pathiakis <pathiaki2@yahoo.com> wrote:
=
I believe the simplest thing would be to wrap jail= s or iocage in an interface that looks like and behaves Docker-like.
<= div dir=3D"ltr">

and Bastille!
 



--
Mario.


--
Ma= rio.
------=_Part_3317541_1854442059.1681394425359-- From nobody Thu Apr 13 15:43:15 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Py3lY5QTBz45J60 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 15:43:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yb1-xb33.google.com (mail-yb1-xb33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b33]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Py3lY3csyz49Vd for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 15:43:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-yb1-xb33.google.com with SMTP id j10so5669311ybj.1 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 08:43:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1681400632; x=1683992632; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=51xi4p2JiTpQ/hFP3LISUzvR/gE65lfc4hZD2PiYNmQ=; b=i8JJEJ4ltqwzFNy0B8whfkC0uAIvm4FlNQO2cWQ6WP7NFwYYaJBwmAicsX/NzvWmEj vARukEJ35I+4by9f+oxiqIFcupofv1uBjxIxR42EcyNvBzvKpd/RSqVqOr+AHxOfgFXU DZqK7bzuUMuNWl17bkzTNcP+ERYL5PhnCUKbb/rqGX1IdMHG7wF9kFnHPPVPud81O60l khZ7wFHEaTKYWGl2hfFgL5/FGCscI8N7eXgnwepaipLPIxn/ABDu3KSK9Uj8pBOI6GyT PTZz6gznYD0RG6sL2/PYNse9e+aUlsn7mGAeHxTH68lq3drs8+cxZohI9jKeY69R4dw7 kUAw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1681400632; x=1683992632; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=51xi4p2JiTpQ/hFP3LISUzvR/gE65lfc4hZD2PiYNmQ=; b=jorQ196IRJZrIGX/TBtijIViLHCiBDvmDd1t9RFbjGyrCRXdNRiJo7SkkSoO+//r72 qyYthH3B7prggs07c6yehqxqytIcEACKXRgqCIbwtylr4J9SC5q8fbxnbMGzLx+ZmawH Koda1NWGyF7Qz1mwZP69u/bBysVgKIiRQFiFwFIFoh2DpWllk1NMjNtBkQmh/o4wU6F0 BlpJIgHKpf8BZE8nUug/cBpLdcMrBMrMcOE8jWkLsI14WZGArIbLzVwp/98RkX4IAbib rIM/g9O0w7tHcrSPpN1Q6VV/fTXWchV1q42hZK/jod/Sd30abPNBGRBLpPWH9MO7tKDt Fw+w== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9fpzf9uM6wso0RIjRwvZYyZxvRetkWR8+UGzTY06Ei6JIBQW0Ff w1wON7KO1KoWB7FNuecBp1nhQ1y9+D1vhVppHDQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350bxSAB5rC2J3Ka9eVDknBp3VStACB5UJUzSk0+4EiuSpzTtZEsCOrioEZaoCthQNiyC0SozjLLM0JhnaGzgB48= X-Received: by 2002:a25:6ed6:0:b0:b68:d117:305b with SMTP id j205-20020a256ed6000000b00b68d117305bmr1398223ybc.10.1681400632235; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 08:43:52 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> <543289768.3317542.1681394425362@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <543289768.3317542.1681394425362@mail.yahoo.com> From: Mario Marietto Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2023 17:43:15 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Docker To: Paul Pathiakis Cc: Miguel C , Alejandro Imass , "Steve O'Hara-Smith" , Tim Preston , freebsd-questions Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000068db5005f93997e7" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Py3lY3csyz49Vd X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --00000000000068db5005f93997e7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For sure not everything,but something that is very requested and that it has given a solid proof to be a valid and robust tool. I think Docker has all these requisites. On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 4:00=E2=80=AFPM Paul Pathiakis wrote: > I guess my opinion at this point is to drop this. I don't see a valid > point for diverting resources and various other things to accommodate > 'docker' or many other things that are dependent on 'linuxisms'. Where > does it stop? Do we start porting everything from Windows as well? My > point is there are many things in many OSes and variants thereof, that ha= ve > hooks into proprietary parts of the kernel that are not 'modular'. By > modular, I mean that they can be compiled and used on another OS like mos= t > things in the ports/pkgs system. Since this is 'kernel' level, I don't > think FreeBSD should pursue such an endeavor with the limited resources a= t > hand. The FreeBSD kernel and userland are a thing of beauty and refineme= nt > imho. All I have to do is look at the CVE database to see that in the la= st > 10 years there only a couple of hundred bugs. Just the linux KERNEL has > 1000s as does windows. I would worry that anything that had ties into th= e > Linux kernel is probably an issue waiting to happen. > > I've been doing system administration and system architecture for over 35 > years... When people ask what the dominant *nix OS is and are expecting > Linux.... It starts us down the road of all the big boys use FreeBSD > because they can't afford to have constant patching and vulnerabilities. > > So, it's either in a hypervisor and we go from there or drop it. The > amount of time spent on this discussion is becoming 'trollish' > > Paul > > On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 08:23:35 AM GMT-5, Mario Marietto < > marietto2008@gmail.com> wrote: > > > ---> Couldn't we just run docker on bhyve? > > more no than yes. You could try to put yourself in other people's shoes. > You are only moving the problem. You are indirectly asking the users that > come from another system to learn bhyve if they want to use docker. Why > should they learn something different to just use what they need ? At thi= s > point they could jump directly to learn jails,instead of bhyve and / or > docker. To learn something different requires time,energy,etc. This is no= t > a good business card for the new users. And it implicitly admits that a > useful and popular tool like docker doesn't work on an efficient operatin= g > system like FreeBSD. Yes there are great tools like docker for freebsd, > but those users don't need it, they just want docker. Maybe they don't ev= en > need to learn bhyve. Just Docker. Your reasoning is typical of someone > who has been using freebsd for some time, you don't think like those user= s > who would like to adopt it and are evaluating the pros and cons. Take als= o > in consideration that running bhyve to run Docker is a waste of resources > on the machine,if I want to run only Docker,because in a normal situation= ,I > shouldn't have the need to use bhyve. Users that have already boarded > FreeBSD have probably already come to appreciate jails and many of them > don't need to run bhyve to get docker. Remember the focus of my > argumentation : it is something like this : I offer a native implementati= on > of docker on FreeBSD and I use it as bait to attract more users. And > between those users maybe there will be also good developers that will lo= ve > FreeBSD even for different reasons than docker. The ultimate goal is to > make freebsd a little more attractive to the industry, because as far as = I > read, it's slowly disappearing. > > > > On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 2:59=E2=80=AFPM Miguel C = wrote: > > 100% Agree with this, and the fact is there have been cases where there i= s > that tolerance and there are maintainers making efforts to bring "linux" > things to freeBSD even if via linux emulation. > > Docker has been mentioned many times in mailing lists and forums and ther= e > is always comments like "but why jails are much better" etc, sometimes no= t > only intolerant but rude reply that serve only to drive people away IMHO. > > I also don't get why is that so complicated, is it just cause FreeBSD's > maintainers/community don't want to even consider docker on FreeBSD? > Couldn't we just run docker on bhyve? I'm sure it would serve the "just > want to test this image purpose" but I suspect there will be some issues > with Filesytem/network, not issues per say, but more like it likely takes > some work to get this to run in easy manner, but I think I've seen mentio= ns > of using sshfs or zvols to make this part easier. > > MacOS and Windows use virtualization anyway, sure Docker "DESKTOP" is > supported but docker, but they are still using a VM at the end of the day > and handle the filesystem/network stuff for the user. > > I've never tried this my self but I don't think it should be that super > complicated unless you plan to run docker on prod envs, I think here, the > argument that "right tool for the job" is very valid.... I use docker on = my > macOS but I'm not going to run things in prod in macbooks ofc, I will sti= ll > use Linux, K8s etc. > > Perhaps the FreeBSD foundation could invest a bit in getting a tool to > easy the way of running docker through bhyve, I do believe this would be > good for user adoption, but probably there are other priorities. > > > > On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 12:32=E2=80=AFPM Mario Marietto > wrote: > > The point of my argumentation is not if FreeBSD has or not good tools for > containerizing and securing applications. It has. Point is that the users > that don't know FreeBSD are tied to their own tools and rarely want to > change them. Almost everyone wants to change. But trying,experimenting an= d > changing something in the workflow is important,because every tool has ba= d > and good sides. There are many docker images already to be used on the ne= t > and this will save a lot of time and effort and money for a lot of people= . > This is a fact. And I think that it happened because Docker is...good. > FreeBSD has tools like docker,but the mass production of containerized > images never happened. So,would we ask ourselves the reason ? Maybe > something has not gone well. I use Linux and FreeBSD and I "love" both > these systems. Linux has a larger user base than FreeBSD. A larger user > base may mean more innovations in a small time,a faster bug correction an= d > so on. > > I think that mostly advantages from the implementation of docker on > FreeBSD will come from the user base. Mostly for those users that come fr= om > linux or other OS and that already use docker and kubernetes. I don't thi= nk > those users are a small number. Those users could jump to FreeBSD if Dock= er > / Kubernetes are implemented in FreeBSD. This could be the straw that > broke the camel's back. You argue that the jails are working already > great and that they should use them. I argue that the freebsd community > could have a more tolerant behavior to the users that could jump to the > FreeBSD world and they should not force them to learn only new technologi= es > at first. To have some important tools which work on multiple systems mea= ns > having a good business card. So,in the end I ask to myself and to you : > FreeBSD needs to grow in terms of community ? Does it need to be > populated by a bigger number of users that will come from another OS base > community ? > > On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 10:17=E2=80=AFAM Alejandro Imass > wrote: > > > > On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 4:28=E2=80=AFPM Paul Pathiakis > wrote: > > I believe the simplest thing would be to wrap jails or iocage in an > interface that looks like and behaves Docker-like. > > > and Bastille! > > > > > > -- > Mario. > > > > -- > Mario. > --=20 Mario. --00000000000068db5005f93997e7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
For sure not everything,but something that is very request= ed and that it has given a solid proof to be a valid and robust tool. I thi= nk Docker has all these requisites.

On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 4:00=E2=80= =AFPM Paul Pathiakis <pathiaki2@y= ahoo.com> wrote:
I guess my opinion at this point is to drop this.= =C2=A0 I don't see a valid point for diverting resources and various ot= her things to accommodate 'docker' or many other things that are de= pendent on 'linuxisms'.=C2=A0 Where does it stop?=C2=A0 Do we start= porting everything from Windows as well?=C2=A0 My point is there are many = things in many OSes and variants thereof, that have hooks into proprietary = parts of the kernel that are not 'modular'.=C2=A0 By modular, I mea= n that they can be compiled and used on another OS like most things in the = ports/pkgs system.=C2=A0 Since this is 'kernel' level, I don't = think FreeBSD should pursue such an endeavor with the limited resources at = hand.=C2=A0 The FreeBSD kernel and userland are a thing of beauty and refin= ement imho.=C2=A0 All I have to do is look at the CVE database to see that = in the last 10 years there only a couple of hundred bugs.=C2=A0 Just the li= nux KERNEL has 1000s as does windows.=C2=A0 I would worry that anything tha= t had ties into the Linux kernel is probably an issue waiting to happen.

I've been doing system a= dministration and system architecture for over 35 years...=C2=A0 When peopl= e ask what the dominant *nix OS is and are expecting Linux.... It starts us= down the road of all the big boys use FreeBSD because they can't affor= d to have constant patching and vulnerabilities.

=
So, it's either in a hypervisor and we go from t= here or drop it.=C2=A0 The amount of time spent on this discussion is becom= ing 'trollish'

Pau= l

=20
=20
On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 08:23:35 AM GMT-5, Mario= Marietto <m= arietto2008@gmail.com> wrote:


---> Couldn't we just run docker on b= hyve?

more no than yes. You could try to put yourself in other people's shoes. You are= only moving the problem. You are indirectly asking the users that come fro= m another system to learn bhyve if they want to use docker. Why should they= learn something different to just use what they need ? At this point they = could jump directly to learn jails,instead of bhyve and / or docker. To lea= rn something different requires time,energy,etc. This is not a good busines= s card for the new users. And it implicitly admits= that a useful and popular tool like docker doesn't work on an efficien= t operating system like FreeBSD. Yes there are gre= at tools like docker for freebsd, but those users don't need it, they j= ust want docker. Maybe they don't even need to learn bhyve. Just Docker= . Your reasoning is typical of someone who has bee= n using freebsd for some time, you don't think like those users who wou= ld like to adopt it and are evaluating the pros and cons. Take also in cons= ideration that running bhyve to run Docker is a waste of resources on the m= achine,if I want to run only Docker,because in a normal situation,I shouldn= 't have the need to use bhyve. Users that have= already boarded FreeBSD have probably already come to appreciate jails and= many of them don't need to run bhyve to get docker. Remember the focus= of my argumentation : it is something like this : I offer a native impleme= ntation of docker on FreeBSD and I use it as bait to attract more users. An= d between those users maybe there will be also good developers that will lo= ve FreeBSD even for different reasons than docker. The ultimate goal is to<= /span> make freebsd a little more attractive to the indus= try, because as far as I read, it's slowly disappearing.



On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 2:59= =E2=80=AFPM Miguel C <miguelmclara@gmail.com> wr= ote:
<= div>
100% Agree with this, and the fact is there have been cases w= here there is that tolerance and there are maintainers making efforts to br= ing "linux" things to freeBSD even if via linux emulation.
<= div>
Docker has been mentioned many times in m= ailing lists and forums and there is always comments like "but why jai= ls are much better" etc, sometimes not only intolerant but rude reply = that serve only to drive people away IMHO.

I also don't get why is that so complicated, is it just cause F= reeBSD's maintainers/community don't want to even consider docker o= n FreeBSD? Couldn't we just run docker on bhyve? I'm sure it would = serve the "just want to test this image purpose" but I suspect th= ere will be some issues with Filesytem/network, not issues per say, but mor= e like it likely takes some work to get this to run in easy manner, but I t= hink I've seen mentions of using sshfs or zvols to make this part easie= r.

MacOS and Windows use virtualiza= tion anyway, sure Docker "DESKTOP" is supported but docker, but t= hey are still using a VM at the end of the day and handle the filesystem/ne= twork stuff for the user.

I= 've never tried this my self but I don't think it should be that su= per complicated unless you plan to run docker on prod envs, I think here, t= he argument that "right tool for the job" is very valid.... I use= docker on my macOS but I'm not going to run things in prod in macbooks= ofc, I will still use Linux, K8s etc.

Perhaps the FreeBSD foundation could invest a bit in getting a= tool to easy the way of running docker through bhyve, I do believe this wo= uld be good for user adoption, but probably there are other priorities.



On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 12:32=E2= =80=AFPM Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com>= wrote:
The point of my argumentation is not if FreeBSD has or not good tool= s for containerizing and securing applications. It has. Point is that the u= sers that don't know FreeBSD are tied to their own tools and rarely wan= t to change them. Almost everyone wants to change. But trying,experimenting= and changing something in the workflow is important,because every tool has= bad and good sides. There are many docker images already to be used on the= net and this will save a lot of time and effort and money for a lot of peo= ple. This is a fact. And I think that it happened because Docker is...good.= FreeBSD has tools like docker,but the mass production of containerized ima= ges never happened. So,would we ask ourselves the reason ? Maybe something = has not gone well. I use Linux and FreeBSD and I "love" both thes= e systems. Linux has a larger user base than FreeBSD. A larger user base ma= y mean more innovations in a small time,a faster bug correction and so on. =

I think that mo= stly advantages from the implementation of docker on FreeBSD will come from= the user base. Mostly=20 for those users that come from linux or other OS and that already use=20 docker and kubernetes. I don't think those users are a small number.=20 Those users could jump to FreeBSD if Docker / Kubernetes are implemented in FreeBSD. This could be the straw that broke the camel= 's back. You argue that the jails are working already great and = that they should use them. I argue that the freebsd community could have a = more tolerant behavior to the users that could jump to the FreeBSD world and th= ey should not force them to learn only new technologies at first. To have s= ome important tools which work on multiple systems means having a good business card. So,in the=20 end I ask to myself and to you : FreeBSD needs to grow in terms of co= mmunity ? Does it need to be populated by a bigger number of users t= hat will come from another OS base community ?

On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 10:17= =E2=80=AFAM Alejandro Imass <aimass@yabarana.com> w= rote:
=


On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 4:28=E2=80=AFPM Paul Pathiakis <pathiaki2@yahoo.com> wrote:
I believe the simplest thing would be to wrap jail= s or iocage in an interface that looks like and behaves Docker-like.
<= div dir=3D"ltr">

and Bastille!
=C2=A0



--
Mario.


--
Mario.


--
Mario.
--00000000000068db5005f93997e7-- From nobody Thu Apr 13 15:51:39 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Py3wk0WHjz45JqB for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 15:51:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4fe000434ea86.e1e77cc83a5106872a52363c06b17452@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Py3wj5wVqz4Q2q for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 15:51:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4fe000434ea86.e1e77cc83a5106872a52363c06b17452@email-od.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1681401110; x=1683993110; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info:subject:to:from:cc:reply-to; bh=F+ZiEKbl3wnU3113JR3E28gZnLZMsKTPWZ5oiBEv7VU=; b=IRE/blpZJNv/NSQOtk2GX4U70hy2CP7fcEQZe4znL1fratGffdkoi3rlcUzTEs4OX0eLiAewaWXewp/TZJ4RvPkxhg7H/ww9FV48yhkytGcyPdTBVH0TOqJXtX55bk9cl4czsvN9xWxBfkUJjSyZT4c5Ldp8b0XS1uhunaq+9FU= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi4xZDRmZTAwMDQzNGVhODYuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r1.h.in.socketlabs.com (r1.h.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.180.11]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Thu, 13 Apr 2023 11:51:43 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (86-42-20-118-dynamic.b-ras1.bdt.dublin.eircom.net [86.42.20.118]) by r1.h.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Thu, 13 Apr 2023 11:51:41 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.95 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1pmzEZ-000DPJ-FU; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 16:51:39 +0100 Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2023 16:51:39 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Mario Marietto Cc: Paul Pathiakis , Miguel C , Alejandro Imass , Tim Preston , freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Docker Message-Id: <20230413165139.6a79f0a99d29accbcdc8769d@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> <543289768.3317542.1681394425362@mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.33; amd64-portbld-freebsd13.1) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Py3wj5wVqz4Q2q X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 17:43:15 +0200 Mario Marietto wrote: > For sure not everything,but something that is very requested and that it > has given a solid proof to be a valid and robust tool. I think Docker has > all these requisites. So go forth and make it happen. I posted elsewhere an overview of what needs doing (I probably missed a lot of things), it's a fairly big project and it will need its own team of developers composed of people who want it done. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From nobody Thu Apr 13 16:39:32 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Py50V22K9z45NNs for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 16:40:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yw1-x1136.google.com (mail-yw1-x1136.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1136]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Py50T6yMNz3n7C for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 16:40:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-yw1-x1136.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-54f6a796bd0so178544427b3.12 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 09:40:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1681404009; x=1683996009; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=PBrsRtcoOp6KMMNGMi5n0vPgtslxZZSxcw8ZccF8AX8=; b=iulOKEozSo/waFfpyLp1GuyphO43Mgh+sj59w0VRiUjZUO+agPpsXVrEBZOzOHfeOh WRbGeUYO1GWaQwfhJPB/Bxm0PnAVNkooUvpAhGV2HYEamovCybDRRpzEqtgj0l6ar/Ze ux6FmTbSLKP4aNvDIauQmGld0DUUFCdepTA4IsgIZWxxj/VaemFjx318HDgXAu7E25VM EXyy2iExsFHCaYNKK5QRFo5hK5ko+fzwRpSOCJjo7/JC3uMMjaWDUGVQ0BaupFwRIXhz Qtd6wC1Yvsd+XKtg6jMOXmCRZUonUrY9U77SBTMonC30YcDI4EU5W+hRsbwt7QPtnovJ W3cw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1681404009; x=1683996009; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=PBrsRtcoOp6KMMNGMi5n0vPgtslxZZSxcw8ZccF8AX8=; b=JgZK9Ixnq+3EIHtsIoU8r3LvSF34c3VEcZ/qJxvMg5Pke64x0xGGBviyCI2U4bQaru eJMr4Go1i7nn8WD1Pn5Fupc68PK7/30r3NZJ8ZAuz1/L+UwnD49FhUJqlbmQqHMUG3dz GC6aEFwxMzb3mssEADyIkWdwkBkXd685ia0oq+gzBXb7VNYTM40a6lauOD3pgl7OV8EU MDdi4rnL+/w1jQaDZay0qijwVHR09c2T1PBqYERheCPdwLv8CMKHLRt5uqIxLL//Pr3N Dnc/6zArv43oaJM6qn8DmtvDQeAfNob43ufuCoJxjOwmzyKlN22qx9wexFgNBhs/ikE+ 5Njw== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9e6mplb/HjvqKwd0Dy71k+W4ZDj9FXcon7b5/LOfoD39I4WoUNw WKc9KN/pxoWB6abM+obTh4ESmSzdcWVaVishJrM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350Z1rDyIvV2vLFAVFztgVUZ0z/+b8M2RFQhVBx7NkOZQYVMzzd+eJatkYYhwy960qqOx4gnRdbbEyreoRy4rqY4= X-Received: by 2002:a81:e443:0:b0:54c:fd7:476e with SMTP id t3-20020a81e443000000b0054c0fd7476emr1808792ywl.3.1681404008984; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 09:40:08 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> <543289768.3317542.1681394425362@mail.yahoo.com> <20230413165139.6a79f0a99d29accbcdc8769d@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20230413165139.6a79f0a99d29accbcdc8769d@sohara.org> From: Mario Marietto Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2023 18:39:32 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Docker To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: Paul Pathiakis , Miguel C , Alejandro Imass , Tim Preston , freebsd-questions Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000adf57805f93a60ab" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Py50T6yMNz3n7C X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --000000000000adf57805f93a60ab Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Have you ever asked yourself because until 2015 there was an interest to keep the docker updated between the ports ? Maybe because there was (and for me there is) a good interest between the developers and users,even if there aren't developers interested to fix it. On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 5:51=E2=80=AFPM Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 17:43:15 +0200 > Mario Marietto wrote: > > > For sure not everything,but something that is very requested and that i= t > > has given a solid proof to be a valid and robust tool. I think Docker h= as > > all these requisites. > > So go forth and make it happen. I posted elsewhere an overview of > what needs doing (I probably missed a lot of things), it's a fairly big > project and it will need its own team of developers composed of people wh= o > want it done. > > -- > Steve O'Hara-Smith > --=20 Mario. --000000000000adf57805f93a60ab Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Have you ever asked yourself because until 2015 there was = an interest to keep the docker updated between the ports ? Maybe because th= ere was (and for me there is) a good interest between the developers and us= ers,even if there aren't developers interested to fix it.
On Thu, A= pr 13, 2023 at 5:51=E2=80=AFPM Steve O'Hara-Smith <steve@sohara.org> wrote:
On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 17:43:15 +0200
Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com> wrote:

> For sure not everything,but something that is very requested and that = it
> has given a solid proof to be a valid and robust tool. I think Docker = has
> all these requisites.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 So go forth and make it happen. I posted elsewh= ere an overview of
what needs doing (I probably missed a lot of things), it's a fairly big=
project and it will need its own team of developers composed of people who<= br> want it done.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith <steve@sohara.org>


--
Mario.
--000000000000adf57805f93a60ab-- From nobody Thu Apr 13 16:46:05 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Py57S2Rzmz45P3v for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 16:46:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4fe000435fa83.6629442a70bb22980fa3726e22960994@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Py57S0kZ3z41kp for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 16:46:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4fe000435fa83.6629442a70bb22980fa3726e22960994@email-od.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1681404372; x=1683996372; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info:subject:to:from:cc:reply-to; bh=Y3ra7425al4py2re3ZTWPksAdyPNvPS4LXoREg1MwLY=; b=QMJjUEX8OjX91QNXwBHlagsMfjSGphy9SGlHaagGH5qeVJTwyEWCxWQcI9zAFPAaN+or3DY1jDjDKzvo7ELpPuTm5m55bovh5bK+TUyBxzmi33izlN753O2QiFHOYDdOYw8wSCJ126FbXWKY509Bhn4RykFvR0+GCfSc++YxjLM= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi4xZDRmZTAwMDQzNWZhODMuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r2.us-west-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r2.us-west-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.190.2]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Thu, 13 Apr 2023 12:46:10 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (86-42-20-118-dynamic.b-ras1.bdt.dublin.eircom.net [86.42.20.118]) by r2.us-west-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Thu, 13 Apr 2023 12:46:07 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.95 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1pn05F-0004Dn-DD; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 17:46:05 +0100 Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2023 17:46:05 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Mario Marietto Cc: Paul Pathiakis , Miguel C , Alejandro Imass , Tim Preston , freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Docker Message-Id: <20230413174605.ba015d95eb1b70a27d4f9b88@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> <543289768.3317542.1681394425362@mail.yahoo.com> <20230413165139.6a79f0a99d29accbcdc8769d@sohara.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.33; amd64-portbld-freebsd13.1) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Py57S0kZ3z41kp X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 18:39:32 +0200 Mario Marietto wrote: > Have you ever asked yourself Asked what ? > because until 2015 there was an interest to > keep the docker updated between the ports ? Maybe because there was (and Somebody maintained it, and stopped. That's how the ports work, there's no team that maintains them it's all individuals. > for me there is) a good interest between the developers and users,even if Developers are users and vice-versa. > there aren't developers interested to fix it. Personally I have no interest in running Docker in any shape or form so I'm not going to be working at it. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/ From nobody Thu Apr 13 17:46:33 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Py6TC2xCLz45TyZ for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 17:46:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic320-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic320-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.191.82]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Py6TB4SjJz3FWN for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 17:46:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1681407996; bh=zheNWsJvqHa/wNWWr1338VWCd6qwDWmQtT1HSQgVfXk=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=mEZ7TyTVd6nHm4zcLvdaEetGdbCmA5ITQW/+b8BXYPdhRnjGgadpDIfORPyKzpVWpYLOmCUCR1i9qWnlp5Agk5glxis7fFbqaRd7Lxf74zENd+PKvSRDAdKlFm/LEWyZdADXj5KacUCfRgLgLMSxG1IlGHeGBke+JwnFznFTu8L1Eutc2jXbSA6leXCf7kGXeXar8svBDYVQ9GKnlyRqSJO/dV4tBYQ6dKkj2ItoIqdmcN3TFQsypiKOZSqyIewI5LZb0fAwWqtlLmGC0aaHZaFSylcEt1ZAM0GuAklicqjxQ0n4MpHlDQCc/sE24OtDjGkUIVRLgkJDikTOuPuJTg== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1681407996; bh=oxCmzvj0ty90FnIXWg8k52b7egs/YgmG/eZbAd0vzvu=; h=X-Sonic-MF:Date:From:To:Subject:From:Subject; b=q+LVrGBoahKA4LmJdll9sb0UyzT82se3NJ07+Uf265iC9v8b8ZZDLEOfRP/C08TYBF72ld3/KEyoMu8/d5Qpq7tX4AqFSrATyDZPsQ/AZ/FYCadmpx/lZJV6EbHkwrmkNOknhqyGziWFs6K6ri5DPmzja0u01/MN7OJtqwSeQuD1faH/JHr7qLp/LjkQeDOppngYCIBpOL0Z5p+TeshsR4rqM5OQiRhjq6J/gVx2opu/1UT23C/X1s/GQMYbiwJTIJ96I4qkM95DU4AhhGo0hCz4kKy8bU3ksY0JkXKEcs8uLNK8qXq1NQc5DziJYsbuq9l2WaAWxoD3A4p5B8zRbw== X-YMail-OSG: lIGvK0sVM1nx.oYSZpxWQw4uVwqoYlRcSrZ5KjLxMs0gKrwAbb.jG.tPU3u0CU4 V75manbqeH3vceKtfAcRCvWDyf9EvN4hirPpYpt9RrFb7EK3gMHkAFAbSQ9BZv3aVJaOvULvcTpY wSlGFpjR24smBDNWPY.8ruN5CFWispmlFfErrsM1rMJlGvOoNzzGFRijXbyxfmvfFbPfGL7.SU4c 8SBmgOokPSFCQkL2p2Nlrj.L5QVQBT5zjXiqu0vN7il5c2c82waMYSkauRgdLUXqwMqPOR6eaxT9 9iPeiDsFqeg0KeOjOM6Mukh_3xi4dFpoGLivvEOAR2dh.iYvQpXfwMEANUGaB6.RwcAaTQwBiJ.t scfKP4FYrfLtzDOgJFLRmCpnFbhu3WoU.hD_iyQ1C7DG_jUIFrkzHdHS_m_rJ1Lw8jBxrEkdFeoe QB0qfr7fOsNaiZ5JkVT8yRuOYNNFq8u9NmV8WHFbs_gUYxLQRKSuQBXfZVVVQJCHCIOr5toVMI5A hR3J0UYARDtaz.0PHufJBaBrDWR5gH9njzPFcvLvZsvHtu3D8SQwJF9beK8KWB_RzGNepsjlUqEz S0d0Mvjqsb7zMlO.9ILd9GMRfEybtpGW6WqGwkRjzNFQoWYNw0EO6xNCqhSppopcNJAnHnJz6IiH DEt01ILjaS2c0.vxyHZvvmAbnL46R0xE9rk37wp.OV5ItNm_QCDfrtgv8A2ud2w16QH2d5Y.WI89 X4HyrAVgMJM_AyXlyWXHRmC73zcdja6Xb9E3Ggmv4hr4T8XbLvjWsb0fEdSTkGhx17dc_nCUnGiZ _dk5QKqdYHpiFCz9cGbHe0Id6HT1_p4j_.HVmzyyInhRid735VDcUBnMRpU5Mm9LIMXfpPFiiYFW hb7vvFcWOF4Z2yayG0YCYhapMO4GP3NWu_v9DkE9_CaOKA8ioj5jC6p.P_Z5q1TIIU5bqkuv_Fwx x9o5yX8lgFpyGIpzZAm4m5_QJiNq7GxlcXI08y_fQ_iarANUjk3JfYUTXxONnpbzfgPM4L3lNPll Bio61ED.M6wawY_a5J3G.Qjfnr.VVgIoCC3rpoIfFRzQp0zfC1.y6CEUm8goAf1g.7EvG5D2ehxQ 1EbfTkJg5NaJhKZ3e14UKCO80Ly_qkul3vAsX79AN8Iz_biIx7YP9sN.fW6Uo8RXf05rQ1sIe3eX dQjhdYho4jlhcJ.FVvJXBFiNx.2pqos4lFRTHBvKPpCNztixL7bx_9YEbGZUrqo7iGHAUH.NymTB mtzedFfsPsqAAAlZsvu_IMMZzIKWPilGgh9RZX0fwEYBArKkG0tVRm8rTQSnKuDDzrgSGHW.wDZA w.K4YPP12D1dtwLmQxTpRh5R_A6cpd3xseWe8vlknaZsf2kB_oCTLbmR65Drmtp1lQbAEc.NoGgO 2wuP8XtaW3tMhoqqAviiSpHzEZvfPREfJ.klg1.VLl.3ZpCq1RYLuJXeet9qWvdQ8vVY021lOB1z uadt6swACeoUI89WDigIqPRAiu_tP.nVCNApexSKdh0FPE3niHEoGlPDTnumxN7if3Cnc.R1FetB 96IiEfrh.GrxUixmRhW8.bCCT3YkCBYotz3JiaWqa1ZberQoaoEeqGyTBSGWlTwWckyuG.FnGmeS T0b29OQizVgY6_Tctag8eZg5ROfIksIdBg9c31glfaOdurT.kUsU9jfLx8ElZwEt8joUtw3BqgY. rkp9AIGNy8wlcqF8mFkPoBC9quERsBbChgQKzs1BPWCAix.byGYMgVfniXadWjeXUZni42eVsen. IHPXvc8mzabwSF3zMOgQ8Jrw0FDFt78cM8SeXfEehY1ZAdvQjHcH_qqnCUguEGfCGU1oAQIFgFgn JURilvnn4o4wOU2dU7mf0l4mkZC5n66ffMhcD5cGDMfgcQf7LV6wLJW0sTr1.SlsGa.Qx.k1cB81 w.9V3IP0iIhzMfi8edUi_r7A.EBkgvde.kn_oJZBSAPsoQyVqFu3jtMrILvLLL0i6H0Rq2hXRZH0 q2T15TAIfwu7cAUEKSHnefG11dje5b999RMKl2dyDXmhO7dUlTyAAzI97KPHQpXjvt2BqcwhHI_w 2Ln7n2ZkrMypWfW7N.ZH7GZAPecC987Y0jyHc04CqqeX3N7a9CUvw6Z_tH5pF8a9Bk4Xg5XrHirB GzdI9DSGYpaDDO57YlzvDauAfYCRpXQAFUv2Tne97DUzDRer9Ge1.JUZEs2ZCOw1tDNyOflUMJlZ Yizjg0Qne8bwx2.CHMvFma3xteDggHz_zCr4B X-Sonic-MF: X-Sonic-ID: 626d3a63-5030-43b2-9fca-900807ef6574 Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic320.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 17:46:36 +0000 Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2023 17:46:33 +0000 (UTC) From: Paul Pathiakis To: Steve O'Hara-Smith , Mario Marietto Cc: Miguel C , Alejandro Imass , Tim Preston , freebsd-questions Message-ID: <1713049884.3454502.1681407993048@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> <543289768.3317542.1681394425362@mail.yahoo.com> <20230413165139.6a79f0a99d29accbcdc8769d@sohar a.org> Subject: Re: Docker List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3454501_903155551.1681407993047" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21365 YMailNorrin X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Py6TB4SjJz3FWN X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N ------=_Part_3454501_903155551.1681407993047 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And again, I must ask that this is dropped.=C2=A0 In my eyes, it is now tr= olling. As Steve posted, find a group of people that are interested in making it av= ailable with FreeBSD kernel constructs and create something that can easily= read/write and make use of the docker containers. FreeBSD has multiple containers technologies and the oldest one is jails th= at was created, literally, decades ago.=C2=A0 Just because 'Docker' is the = neat, new, kewl thing right now, it may or may not survive.=C2=A0 Jails and= hypervisors have and so have all the other constructs of FreeBSD.=C2=A0 Th= e security on them is incredible and the inheritance is well thought out. Mario, if you really want this, start a project, find out all the people yo= u need and ask if they will donate time.=C2=A0 You've been stating that no = one wants to learn 'something new like jails/iocage etc'.=C2=A0 Thats the p= roblem with the industry today.=C2=A0 People don't want to learn and unders= tand at the bit level.=C2=A0 You want Docker on FreeBSD, but you don't want= to learn about FreeBSD to learn how complicated it is.=C2=A0=C2=A0 I work on various versions of Linux daily.=C2=A0 Quite frankly, it's a hodg= e-podge of multiple projects that get thrown together and somehow works....= until massive holes in functionality and security are found.There are bigg= er problems for them to fix than a container system that grew out of a need= to simplify coding and environment creation for ease of use....aka not wan= ting to put the effort where it belongs... an incredibly solid foundation a= nd proper programming practice. The FreeBSD OPERATING SYSTEM is a kernel and userland.=C2=A0 It is constant= ly optimized, rewritten and goes through a rigorous design/upgrade/implemen= tation process and multiple QA and release clients before any version is re= leased.=C2=A0 It shows in the CVE findings.=C2=A0 Even x.0 releases are rob= ust and mostly bug free.=C2=A0 I don't see any versions of the Linux KERNEL= ever doing that and its a comparison between a COMPLETE OS versus just a K= ERNEL. So pardon me.... but I now see you as a troll.=C2=A0 Please talk to some of= the more detailed people on the mailing lists to start your project.=C2=A0= Learn about the kernel structures on Linux and FreeBSD and their equivalen= ts.=C2=A0 That's where you should start. Paul On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 09:40:47 AM PDT, Mario Marietto wrote: =20 =20 Have you ever asked yourself because until 2015 there was an interest to k= eep the docker updated between the ports ? Maybe because there was (and for= me there is) a good interest between the developers and users,even if ther= e aren't developers interested to fix it.=20 On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 5:51=E2=80=AFPM Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 17:43:15 +0200 Mario Marietto wrote: > For sure not everything,but something that is very requested and that it > has given a solid proof to be a valid and robust tool. I think Docker has > all these requisites. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 So go forth and make it happen. I posted elsewh= ere an overview of what needs doing (I probably missed a lot of things), it's a fairly big project and it will need its own team of developers composed of people who want it done. --=20 Steve O'Hara-Smith --=20 Mario. =20 ------=_Part_3454501_903155551.1681407993047 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=
And again, I must ask that t= his is dropped.  In my eyes, it is now trolling.

As = Steve posted, find a group of people that are interested in making it avail= able with FreeBSD kernel constructs and create something that can easily re= ad/write and make use of the docker containers.

FreeBSD h= as multiple containers technologies and the oldest one is jails that was cr= eated, literally, decades ago.  Just because 'Docker' is the neat, new= , kewl thing right now, it may or may not survive.  Jails and hypervis= ors have and so have all the other constructs of FreeBSD.  The securit= y on them is incredible and the inheritance is well thought out.

Mario, if you really want this, start a project, find out all the p= eople you need and ask if they will donate time.  You've been stating = that no one wants to learn 'something new like jails/iocage etc'.  Tha= ts the problem with the industry today.  People don't want to learn an= d understand at the bit level.  You want Docker on FreeBSD, but you do= n't want to learn about FreeBSD to learn how complicated it is.  =

I work on various versions of Linux daily.  Quite f= rankly, it's a hodge-podge of multiple projects that get thrown together an= d somehow works.... until massive holes in functionality and security are f= ound.
There are bigger problems= for them to fix than a container system that grew out of a need to simplif= y coding and environment creation for ease of use....aka not wanting to put= the effort where it belongs... an incredibly solid foundation and proper p= rogramming practice.

=
The FreeBSD OPERATING SYSTEM is a ke= rnel and userland.  It is constantly optimized, rewritten and goes thr= ough a rigorous design/upgrade/implementation process and multiple QA and r= elease clients before any version is released.  It shows in the CVE fi= ndings.  Even x.0 releases are robust and mostly bug free.  I don= 't see any versions of the Linux KERNEL ever doing that and its a compariso= n between a COMPLETE OS versus just a KERNEL.

So pardon m= e.... but I now see you as a troll.  Please talk to some of the more d= etailed people on the mailing lists to start your project.  Learn abou= t the kernel structures on Linux and FreeBSD and their equivalents.  T= hat's where you should start.
<= br>
Paul

=20
=20
On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 09:40:47 AM PDT, Mario M= arietto <marietto2008@gmail.com> wrote:


Have you ever asked yourself because until 2015 there was an interest t= o keep the docker updated between the ports ? Maybe because there was (and = for me there is) a good interest between the developers and users,even if t= here aren't developers interested to fix it.

On Thu, A= pr 13, 2023 at 5:51=E2=80=AFPM Steve O'Hara-Smith <steve@soha= ra.org> wrote:
On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 17:43:15 += 0200
Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com> wrote:
> For sure not everything,but something that is very requested and that = it
> has given a solid proof to be a valid and robust tool. I think Docker = has
> all these requisites.

        So go forth and make it happen. I posted elsewh= ere an overview of
what needs doing (I probably missed a lot of things), it's a fairly big
project and it will need its own team of developers composed of people who<= br clear=3D"none"> want it done.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith <steve@sohara.org>


--
Mari= o.
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FreeBSD amd64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.10.0 Subject: freebsd-update(8) upgrade peculiarities (was: FreeBSD 13.2-RELEASE Now Available) To: questions@freebsd.org References: <20230411044832.10F73170F8@freefall.freebsd.org> Content-Language: en-US X-Priority: 4 (Low) From: Graham Perrin Organization: FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------UTU2WLWs8h8I0b1KazA2JhNY" X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------UTU2WLWs8h8I0b1KazA2JhNY Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------sDlnJf74bupEB0X22Rcj6Wrf"; protected-headers="v1" From: Graham Perrin To: questions@freebsd.org Message-ID: <930a3ed1-5fbc-b8e8-487e-b91193501f7f@freebsd.org> Subject: freebsd-update(8) upgrade peculiarities (was: FreeBSD 13.2-RELEASE Now Available) References: <20230411044832.10F73170F8@freefall.freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: --------------sDlnJf74bupEB0X22Rcj6Wrf Content-Type: text/plain; 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Thu, 13 Apr 2023 21:31:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.134]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "Telekom Security ServerID OV Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PyCSC4McGz3Brc for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 21:31:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.5.230.94]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue011 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MiaHf-1qJuiA3M1P-00fjrq; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 23:30:54 +0200 Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2023 23:30:50 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Miguel C Cc: Mario Marietto , Alejandro Imass , Paul Pathiakis , "Steve O'Hara-Smith" , Tim Preston , freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Docker Message-Id: <20230413233050.2f0046c3.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; 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REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 13:58:51 +0100, Miguel C wrote: > I also don't get why is that so complicated, is it just cause FreeBSD's > maintainers/community don't want to even consider docker on FreeBSD? The core "problem" - in fact, it's not actually a problem, it's just the consequences of a design decision - is that Docker hooks deeply into Linux kernel functioalities which the FreeBSD kernel simply does not have. Docker therefore is Linux-centric and Linux-specific, because the focus of development is pointed at Linux. Cross-OS interoperability is not a primary goal here. You could ask: Why does Linux Firefox not run on macOS? Why does the Mac App Store not run on "Windows"? It is not because someone is lazy or stupid, it's just because it is not designed to do that. > Couldn't we just run docker on bhyve? The word "just" is the key here: It is not a _simple_ thing. "Could we just run FreeBSD binaries on Android?" ;-) > I'm sure it would serve the "just > want to test this image purpose" but I suspect there will be some issues > with Filesytem/network, not issues per say, but more like it likely takes > some work to get this to run in easy manner, but I think I've seen mentions > of using sshfs or zvols to make this part easier. It looks like it is technically possible, after (!) investing time and work into getting it done. It is not a trivial effort. > MacOS and Windows use virtualization anyway, sure Docker "DESKTOP" is > supported but docker, but they are still using a VM at the end of the day > and handle the filesystem/network stuff for the user. You could likewise use a VM to run an instance of Linux and then run Docker inside that VM... > I've never tried this my self [...] Sorry, not a good prefix for a broad statement. :-) > [...] but I don't think it should be that super > complicated unless you plan to run docker on prod envs, I think here, the > argument that "right tool for the job" is very valid.... I use docker on my > macOS but I'm not going to run things in prod in macbooks ofc, I will still > use Linux, K8s etc. It's probably _quite_ complicated, or else someone would already have done it as there are lots of users and administrators who would probably love to run Docker natively on FreeBSD. I'm not involved in the Docker development, so I can only guess (or conclude from Linux development): It is a moving target and, as mentioned above, combined with Linux-centricity. "I've never built a house, but how hard can it be? There are lots of houses over there!" Sorry... ;-) > Perhaps the FreeBSD foundation could invest a bit in getting a tool to easy > the way of running docker through bhyve, I do believe this would be good > for user adoption, but probably there are other priorities. The FreeBSD foundation is responsible primarily for the FreeBSD operating system. Docker is a 3rd party software (like the stuff in the ports collection), so it's a bit out of scope of the FreeBSD foundation. But writing a polite message to them and asking is never a bad idea. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From nobody Thu Apr 13 22:29:48 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PyDmg26n7z44m08 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 22:30:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yw1-x112b.google.com (mail-yw1-x112b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::112b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PyDmf6yVdz49TX for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 22:30:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-yw1-x112b.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-54fb615ac3dso97992207b3.2 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 15:30:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1681425025; x=1684017025; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=M+WHWU4OIe+JAhNNkJKZrqD03JTzHzogGwCH5Tsq6cA=; b=Atmc3xBHmkOu1iwjgtFOmJ7J3tkDpAUIj0n2AhVrlexPEV+Qpc6fG+K3tpDNOQiQiw 9ybmc/okzxdMq+okDbdziu2MiqmGkDfr3u/iYLMwl897/0T/gWbYk1TQ83N2Kje+toi2 OzF32qheZE1UikAjmZkIYZhqE13zkjGKhq0ScQoaG32xY4BgENr/cr8/RcrNUE3r9PdH b+R8b+4SogRjTHfVguABxALWA6XWO98ZehxwJspe8qYkmOsQXM76wtpi7f9MoqiLDoVA wfYwSYbwpm0kgSqIhio1GTuKaR5bXjCxbRBJOeLe3ULh3LFquH1jhod34EuzqZhz2n7Q ssIw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1681425025; x=1684017025; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=M+WHWU4OIe+JAhNNkJKZrqD03JTzHzogGwCH5Tsq6cA=; b=MGWHHcDeaNARmkuafxcuA+N0uu9/OqtdqsSst0MGpRUJURFYmnI7vy/R1hQENKWAxV 81kvqrMbs8N8PvVvVOyt4axrlxREWMBI4wvIcbBDbprcjTEhYvTCoFVJVaKPim/sgZka 3Ct4Rqyz+BRFmIa7l998NiVFU30ZrbsR1U8GZLVSqqDb1gAm5FWJPUe9+BEECmvjrC63 EfqgKT45W50iY608LWhP3RceK4093fj9uuPG6QQJWuULXwPOtzIIAUXTX6SRrp6491Vz dGTUNWTR9zicwFGNrYOKRqh8NUCFrRlBncAmDPjhbXNoJoLn98svksHbo9uB04v/wTnA kiXg== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9cj+rEsuV2gDUTyB7lO5yHf4arTzVmgjK9Xh8/UAofDV+mLOk6J VyT5G/4kPvqR6e3IJf2+yPgfIJYMHDElNdA0xLo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350ZbpuINhtiRTtwiRbhQiKseecKW4Jic5WP5k+UxwMr3rYAtqV2IFdqLouSW9KNw8nmqjAwFbysUR/uwcaTTizs= X-Received: by 2002:a81:4005:0:b0:540:e744:13ae with SMTP id l5-20020a814005000000b00540e74413aemr2486446ywn.3.1681425025217; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 15:30:25 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> <20230413233050.2f0046c3.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20230413233050.2f0046c3.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Mario Marietto Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2023 00:29:48 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Docker To: Polytropon Cc: Miguel C , Alejandro Imass , Paul Pathiakis , "Steve O'Hara-Smith" , Tim Preston , freebsd-questions Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005839c605f93f45b6" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PyDmf6yVdz49TX X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --0000000000005839c605f93f45b6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Someone here got scared that this discussion already became trollish. So,I don't know if I'm allowed to reply further. On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 11:30=E2=80=AFPM Polytropon wrot= e: > On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 13:58:51 +0100, Miguel C wrote: > > I also don't get why is that so complicated, is it just cause FreeBSD's > > maintainers/community don't want to even consider docker on FreeBSD? > > The core "problem" - in fact, it's not actually a problem, > it's just the consequences of a design decision - is that > Docker hooks deeply into Linux kernel functioalities which > the FreeBSD kernel simply does not have. Docker therefore > is Linux-centric and Linux-specific, because the focus of > development is pointed at Linux. Cross-OS interoperability > is not a primary goal here. > > You could ask: Why does Linux Firefox not run on macOS? > Why does the Mac App Store not run on "Windows"? It is > not because someone is lazy or stupid, it's just because > it is not designed to do that. > > > > > Couldn't we just run docker on bhyve? > > The word "just" is the key here: It is not a _simple_ > thing. "Could we just run FreeBSD binaries on Android?" ;-) > > > > > I'm sure it would serve the "just > > want to test this image purpose" but I suspect there will be some issue= s > > with Filesytem/network, not issues per say, but more like it likely tak= es > > some work to get this to run in easy manner, but I think I've seen > mentions > > of using sshfs or zvols to make this part easier. > > It looks like it is technically possible, after (!) > investing time and work into getting it done. It is > not a trivial effort. > > > > > MacOS and Windows use virtualization anyway, sure Docker "DESKTOP" is > > supported but docker, but they are still using a VM at the end of the d= ay > > and handle the filesystem/network stuff for the user. > > You could likewise use a VM to run an instance of > Linux and then run Docker inside that VM... > > > > > I've never tried this my self [...] > > Sorry, not a good prefix for a broad statement. :-) > > > > > [...] but I don't think it should be that super > > complicated unless you plan to run docker on prod envs, I think here, t= he > > argument that "right tool for the job" is very valid.... I use docker o= n > my > > macOS but I'm not going to run things in prod in macbooks ofc, I will > still > > use Linux, K8s etc. > > It's probably _quite_ complicated, or else someone > would already have done it as there are lots of users > and administrators who would probably love to run > Docker natively on FreeBSD. I'm not involved in the > Docker development, so I can only guess (or conclude > from Linux development): It is a moving target and, > as mentioned above, combined with Linux-centricity. > > "I've never built a house, but how hard can it be? > There are lots of houses over there!" Sorry... ;-) > > > > > Perhaps the FreeBSD foundation could invest a bit in getting a tool to > easy > > the way of running docker through bhyve, I do believe this would be goo= d > > for user adoption, but probably there are other priorities. > > The FreeBSD foundation is responsible primarily for > the FreeBSD operating system. Docker is a 3rd party > software (like the stuff in the ports collection), > so it's a bit out of scope of the FreeBSD foundation. > But writing a polite message to them and asking is > never a bad idea. > > > > -- > Polytropon > Magdeburg, Germany > Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 > Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... > --=20 Mario. --0000000000005839c605f93f45b6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Someone here got scared that this discussion already becam= e trollish. So,I don't know if I'm allowed to reply further.

On = Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 11:30=E2=80=AFPM Polytropon <freebsd@edvax.de> wrote:
On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 13:58:5= 1 +0100, Miguel C wrote:
> I also don't get why is that so complicated, is it just cause Free= BSD's
> maintainers/community don't want to even consider docker on FreeBS= D?

The core "problem" - in fact, it's not actually a problem, it's just the consequences of a design decision - is that
Docker hooks deeply into Linux kernel functioalities which
the FreeBSD kernel simply does not have. Docker therefore
is Linux-centric and Linux-specific, because the focus of
development is pointed at Linux. Cross-OS interoperability
is not a primary goal here.

You could ask: Why does Linux Firefox not run on macOS?
Why does the Mac App Store not run on "Windows"? It is
not because someone is lazy or stupid, it's just because
it is not designed to do that.



> Couldn't we just run docker on bhyve?

The word "just" is the key here: It is not a _simple_
thing. "Could we just run FreeBSD binaries on Android?" ;-)



> I'm sure it would serve the "just
> want to test this image purpose" but I suspect there will be some= issues
> with Filesytem/network, not issues per say, but more like it likely ta= kes
> some work to get this to run in easy manner, but I think I've seen= mentions
> of using sshfs or zvols to make this part easier.

It looks like it is technically possible, after (!)
investing time and work into getting it done. It is
not a trivial effort.



> MacOS and Windows use virtualization anyway, sure Docker "DESKTOP= " is
> supported but docker, but they are still using a VM at the end of the = day
> and handle the filesystem/network stuff for the user.

You could likewise use a VM to run an instance of
Linux and then run Docker inside that VM...



> I've never tried this my self [...]

Sorry, not a good prefix for a broad statement. :-)



> [...] but I don't think it should be that super
> complicated unless you plan to run docker on prod envs, I think here, = the
> argument that "right tool for the job" is very valid.... I u= se docker on my
> macOS but I'm not going to run things in prod in macbooks ofc, I w= ill still
> use Linux, K8s etc.

It's probably _quite_ complicated, or else someone
would already have done it as there are lots of users
and administrators who would probably love to run
Docker natively on FreeBSD. I'm not involved in the
Docker development, so I can only guess (or conclude
from Linux development): It is a moving target and,
as mentioned above, combined with Linux-centricity.

"I've never built a house, but how hard can it be?
There are lots of houses over there!" Sorry... ;-)



> Perhaps the FreeBSD foundation could invest a bit in getting a tool to= easy
> the way of running docker through bhyve, I do believe this would be go= od
> for user adoption, but probably there are other priorities.

The FreeBSD foundation is responsible primarily for
the FreeBSD operating system. Docker is a 3rd party
software (like the stuff in the ports collection),
so it's a bit out of scope of the FreeBSD foundation.
But writing a polite message to them and asking is
never a bad idea.



--
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...


--
Mario.
--0000000000005839c605f93f45b6-- From nobody Fri Apr 14 03:47:01 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PyMp76xrzz45Hyb for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 03:47:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kpn@neutralgood.org) Received: from gunsight1.neutralgood.org (gunsight1.neutralgood.org [IPv6:2607:f758:2280:1:d6be:d9ff:feac:a1e9]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "gunsight1.neutralgood.org", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PyMp62g7Mz3L2L for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 03:47:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kpn@neutralgood.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kpn@neutralgood.org designates 2607:f758:2280:1:d6be:d9ff:feac:a1e9 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kpn@neutralgood.org; dmarc=none Received: from gunsight1.NeutralGood.ORG (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gunsight1.neutralgood.org (8.16.1/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 33E3l20E091144 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 13 Apr 2023 23:47:02 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from kpn@gunsight1.NeutralGood.ORG) Received: (from kpn@localhost) by gunsight1.NeutralGood.ORG (8.16.1/8.15.2/Submit) id 33E3l135091141; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 23:47:01 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from kpn) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2023 23:47:01 -0400 From: "Kevin P. Neal" To: "Dan Mahoney (Ports)" Cc: questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: filesystem labels? Message-ID: References: List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-No-archive: Yes X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.28 / 15.00]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.994]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.989]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:13649, ipnet:2607:f758::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[neutralgood.org]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PyMp62g7Mz3L2L X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 08:58:22AM -0700, Dan Mahoney (Ports) wrote: > Hey all, > > I find that the handbook mentions glabel labels, but several other > places say don't use them. > > I managed to apply a gpt label to my new partition that I created using > only "gpart" > > The handbook mentions glabel labels, and tunefs labels, but says > nothing about GPT labels. GPT labels only apply to GPT partitioned disks. The labels appear under "/dev/gpt/". Mount filesystems using that device node in that directory. UFS labels are similar, but only apply to UFS filesystems, and the labels appear under "/dev/ufs/". Mount filesystems using that device node in that directory. It is possible to have a GPT label and a UFS label for the "same" partition. Well, but the GPT label is for the partition and the UFS label is for the filesystem, but in practice this is not a useful distinction. Labels created with glabel add metadata to the end of a partition (or disk) if I remember correctly. I believe the label then presents under /dev, and you must mount using the label device under /dev somewhere. Otherwise you risk having the metadata at the end of the partition get overwritten. The partition exported by the label device prevents this. Which means you can have a GPT partition label, a glabel for the partition, and then a UFS filesystem mounted under the glabel device with a UFS label. But that's a lot of labels and is just asking for trouble. Really, don't do that. Just don't. If you stick with GPT labels then you won't have these problems. If you have to mess with UFS labels or some other label scheme then be very careful to not create a mess for yourself. I do not know if zfs or zfsd know about glabel devices. I can image them accidentally picking up the device node for the disk partition and blowing away a glabel. And the results are probably not good if ZFS sees a disk that happens to have a glabel on it. The glabel device node probably won't be picked up and the result would be ZFS blowing away the glabel. This is not an issue with GPT partition labels. -- Kevin P. Neal http://www.pobox.com/~kpn/ "A pig's gotta fly." - Crimson Pig From nobody Fri Apr 14 04:42:27 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PyP2c4N9tz45NXs for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 04:43:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@gushi.org) Received: from prime.gushi.org (prime.gushi.org [IPv6:2620:137:6000:10::142]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "prime.gushi.org", Issuer "RapidSSL Global TLS RSA4096 SHA256 2022 CA1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PyP2b3N87z3Pt0 for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 04:43:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@gushi.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from smtpclient.apple ([IPv6:2601:602:87f:b05d:18b1:e035:bc23:1320]) (authenticated bits=0) by prime.gushi.org (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 33E4ggbH088637 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 13 Apr 2023 21:42:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@gushi.org) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 prime.gushi.org 33E4ggbH088637 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gushi.org; s=prime2014; t=1681447365; bh=b+YE+6W9kTyzvF9zgtwwYQfBU0jUXjEkDHX9xmhrDFM=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; z=From:=20"Dan=20Mahoney=20(Ports)"=20|Subject:= 20Re:=20filesystem=20labels?|Date:=20Thu,=2013=20Apr=202023=2021:4 2:27=20-0700|In-Reply-To:=20<20230413111708.62d8c8d3.freebsd@edvax .de>|Cc:=20"questions@freebsd.org"=20|To:=2 0Polytropon=20|References:=20=0D=0A=20<20230413111708.62d8c8d3.fre ebsd@edvax.de>; b=Ftj7DXgA/G9pQQXjnnuUMvZ1Y76ZiYh1wOhvwdTHVUpvsfq2rrFiyIDC6RbWHd/XP oXY1XxKxNB1bYQ+QdymLfQKCEBP33Yz4HdNIN1pyZWeeitnRYKLYLlY32V9Z+rC0sI qNp0sXv6q2ZxTVdMChk1iSnJcbHE0NDJ7+eFUvL5GkyOpu1bpRSYdFZH68CQoYwGPL rxYiD9IGTibVlXsRxg5CheLr/69zLTEJzTPgZU9ZqTcAl8Amn6r1km4aQbR2YTupDB 8ho2/ScOt2S76hcMToIlFp9g9tD85Lj+yfyMr7F0tPxiBKdO6hylTWqsiL0OrDnIY7 JjAXxKYjyYiGw== X-Authentication-Warning: prime.gushi.org: Host [IPv6:2601:602:87f:b05d:18b1:e035:bc23:1320] claimed to be smtpclient.apple From: "Dan Mahoney (Ports)" Message-Id: <82C015E0-71B9-4189-AA84-71219CA14E73@gushi.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0B0FDC82-EF5D-4302-AD86-313021D1CBBE" List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3731.500.231\)) Subject: Re: filesystem labels? Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2023 21:42:27 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20230413111708.62d8c8d3.freebsd@edvax.de> Cc: "questions@freebsd.org" To: Polytropon References: <20230413111708.62d8c8d3.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.500.231) X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.4 (prime.gushi.org [IPv6:2620:137:6000:10:0:0:0:142]); Fri, 14 Apr 2023 04:42:53 +0000 (UTC) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PyP2b3N87z3Pt0 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:393507, ipnet:2620:137:6000::/44, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --Apple-Mail=_0B0FDC82-EF5D-4302-AD86-313021D1CBBE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Apr 13, 2023, at 2:17 AM, Polytropon wrote: >=20 > On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 08:58:22 -0700, Dan Mahoney (Ports) wrote: >> I find that the handbook mentions glabel labels, but several >> other places say don=E2=80=99t use them. >=20 > For example? >=20 > THis is a honest question, because in my experience glabels > are a common solution for disk labelling. Warren Block (see the wonkitty link below? Same person.) said in this = old post to avoid it if you can: = https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/odd-dax-device-mapping-in-freebsd-9-1-r= c1.34676/=EF=BF=BC It=E2=80=99s also specific not only to an OS type, but also a fliesystem = type, whereas if you=E2=80=99re using GPT disks. =3D=3D=3D >> I managed to apply a gpt label to my new partition that I >> created using only =E2=80=9Cgpart=E2=80=9D=20 >>=20 >> The handbook mentions glabel labels, and tunefs labels, but >> says nothing about GPT labels. >=20 > GPT labels are specific to GPT partitioning scheme (as > opposed to MBR partitioning, either as "dedicated mode" > with bare partitions, or "DOS mode" with partitions > inide slices). Because today you're probably going to > use GPT partitioning, GPT labels can be used without > any problem. Labels applied to MBR-style partitions > can be both glabel or UFSIDs. Right now, the problem I=E2=80=99ve found is that even though I just = added a new device, and labeled it, it doesn=E2=80=99t show up in = /dev/gpt/anything =E2=80=94 and even /dev/gpt doesn=E2=80=99t exist, = despite having previous GPT disks in the system, at boot. The new drive = doesn=E2=80=99t show in /dev/gpt even after a reboot. There are mentions of a number of sysctls that one *can* set, but not a = great list of what they do. root@collect-us:/home/dmahoney # sysctl -a | grep geom.label kern.features.geom_label: 1 kern.geom.label.disk_ident.enable: 0 kern.geom.label.gptid.enable: 1 kern.geom.label.gpt.enable: 1 kern.geom.label.ufs.enable: 1 kern.geom.label.ufsid.enable: 1 kern.geom.label.reiserfs.enable: 1 kern.geom.label.ntfs.enable: 1 kern.geom.label.msdosfs.enable: 1 kern.geom.label.iso9660.enable: 1 kern.geom.label.flashmap.enable: 1 kern.geom.label.ext2fs.enable: 1 kern.geom.label.debug: 0 What manpage would document any of the above? >> I=E2=80=99ve seen some more complete posts on the forums >> (i.e. = https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/how-to-label-partitions.64380/) >> but they still don=E2=80=99t show the full picture of what >> labels are usable where, by what and which. >=20 > Allow me to try to help with this problem: >=20 > GPT partitioning: > devices: /dev/da0p1, /dev/da0p2, ... > tool: gpart > label: GPT label > location: /dev/gpt/ > MBR partitioning: > tools: gpart (traditional: fdisk, disklabel) > dedicated partitioning: > devices: /dev/da0a, /dev/da0b, ... > tool: glabel > label: glabel > location: /dev/label/ > applied to FS (instead of partition): > tools: newfs, tunefs > label: UFS label > location: /dev/ufs/ > -or- > tool: none > label: UFSID > location: /dev/ufsid/ > DOS style ("primary DOS partitions"): > devices: /dev/da0s1a, da0s1b, ... /dev/da1s1a, ... > tools and labels as above >=20 > My very own summary is: When you setup disks, use GPT. > Use MBR only if you have a good reason to. :-) >=20 > Of course you _can_ apply a UFS label or use a UFSID > for a UFS filesystem in a GPT partition, but that's > not really neccessary because you can already label > the partition itself. >=20 >=20 >=20 >> Is there a good primer people know of of what the various >> types are, fully, which are supported in fstab, which work >> with ZFS only, and the like? >=20 > Not that I'm aware of, but please compare: >=20 > https://docs.freebsd.org/en/books/handbook/geom/#geom-glabel >=20 > = https://people.freebsd.org/~rodrigc/doc/data/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/han= dbook/bsdinstall-partitioning.html >=20 > http://wonkity.com/~wblock/docs/html/disksetup.html >=20 >=20 >=20 >> Or should I just keep on using /dev/daX in fstab? >=20 > Nothing wrong with that in a static environment, i. e., > one where you can safely predict which devices wiill be > detected in which order to conclude what their device > filenames will be. Otherwise, go with GPT labels. In this particular setup, I had a virtual machine with three disks, one = of which was slated to be removed. VMWare presents things to the SCSI = bus, in the order they=E2=80=99re added ot the system: Virtual Disk 1: /dev/da0 Virtual Disk 2:/dev/da1 Virtual Disk 3:/dev/da2 What happens when I shut down, remove that second device, and reboot? = Disk 3 gets renumberd to disk 2, and gets seen as da1. That=E2=80=99s my use case. Using /dev/daX in here is always suceptible = to that problem. But=E2=80=A6when the device entries don=E2=80=99t show up, either = immediately, and on reboot, and the manpages don=E2=80=99t tell me how = to rescan the thing, then I turn to -questions :) -Dan --Apple-Mail=_0B0FDC82-EF5D-4302-AD86-313021D1CBBE Content-Type: multipart/related; type="text/html"; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D5EF5D0A-D179-4F12-B0B5-2BBD024B9F13" --Apple-Mail=_D5EF5D0A-D179-4F12-B0B5-2BBD024B9F13 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On Apr = 13, 2023, at 2:17 AM, Polytropon <freebsd@edvax.de> = wrote:

On Wed, 12 = Apr 2023 08:58:22 -0700, Dan Mahoney (Ports) wrote:
I find that the handbook mentions glabel labels, but = several
other places say don=E2=80=99t use = them.

For example?

THis is a honest question, = because in my experience glabels
are a common solution for disk = labelling.

Warren Block = (see the wonkitty link below?  Same person.) said in this old post = to avoid it if you can:

3D"logo.og.png"

I= t=E2=80=99s also specific not only to an OS type, but also a fliesystem = type, whereas if you=E2=80=99re using GPT = disks.

=3D=3D=3D


I managed to apply = a gpt label to my new partition that I
created using only =E2=80=9Cgpar= t=E2=80=9D

The handbook mentions glabel labels, and tunefs = labels, but
says nothing about GPT labels.

GPT = labels are specific to GPT partitioning scheme (as
opposed to MBR = partitioning, either as "dedicated mode"
with bare partitions, or = "DOS mode" with partitions
inide slices). Because today you're = probably going to
use GPT partitioning, GPT labels can be used = without
any problem. Labels applied to MBR-style partitions
can be = both glabel or = UFSIDs.

Right now, the = problem I=E2=80=99ve found is that even though I just added a new = device, and labeled it, it doesn=E2=80=99t show up in /dev/gpt/anything = =E2=80=94 and even /dev/gpt doesn=E2=80=99t exist, despite having = previous GPT disks in the system, at boot.  The new drive doesn=E2=80= =99t show in /dev/gpt even after a = reboot.

There are mentions of a number of = sysctls that one *can* set, but not a great list of what they = do.

root@collect-us:/home/dmahoney # = sysctl -a | grep geom.label
kern.features.geom_label: = 1
kern.geom.label.disk_ident.enable: = 0
kern.geom.label.gptid.enable: = 1
kern.geom.label.gpt.enable: = 1
kern.geom.label.ufs.enable: = 1
kern.geom.label.ufsid.enable: = 1
kern.geom.label.reiserfs.enable: = 1
kern.geom.label.ntfs.enable: = 1
kern.geom.label.msdosfs.enable: = 1
kern.geom.label.iso9660.enable: = 1
kern.geom.label.flashmap.enable: = 1
kern.geom.label.ext2fs.enable: = 1
kern.geom.label.debug: 0

What = manpage would document any of the above?

I=E2=80=99ve seen some = more complete posts on the forums
(i.e. = https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/how-to-label-partitions.64380/)
but = they still don=E2=80=99t show the full picture of what
labels are = usable where, by what and which.

Allow me to try to = help with this problem:

GPT partitioning:
devices: = /dev/da0p1, /dev/da0p2, ...
tool: gpart
label: = GPT label
= location: /dev/gpt/
MBR partitioning:
tools: = gpart (traditional: fdisk, disklabel)
dedicated partitioning:
devices: = /dev/da0a, /dev/da0b, ...
tool: glabel
label: = glabel
= = location: /dev/label/
applied to FS (instead of = partition):
= = = tools: newfs, tunefs
label: UFS label
location: = /dev/ufs/
= = = -or-
= = = tool: none
label: UFSID
location: = /dev/ufsid/
= DOS style ("primary DOS partitions"):
devices: = /dev/da0s1a, da0s1b, ... /dev/da1s1a, ...
tools and = labels as above

My very own summary is: When you setup disks, use = GPT.
Use MBR only if you have a good reason to. :-)

Of course = you _can_ apply a UFS label or use a UFSID
for a UFS filesystem in a = GPT partition, but that's
not really neccessary because you can = already label
the partition itself.



Is there a good primer people know of of what the = various
types are, fully, which are supported in fstab, which = work
with ZFS only, and the like?

Not that I'm = aware of, but please = compare:

https://docs.freebsd.org/en/books/handbook/geom/#geom-glab= el

https://people.freebsd.org/~rodrigc/doc/data/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1= /books/handbook/bsdinstall-partitioning.html

http://wonkity.com/~wb= lock/docs/html/disksetup.html



Or = should I just keep on using /dev/daX in = fstab?

Nothing wrong with that in a static = environment, i. e.,
one where you can safely predict which devices = wiill be
detected in which order to conclude what their = device
filenames will be. Otherwise, go with GPT = labels.

In this = particular setup, I had a virtual machine with three disks, one of which = was slated to be removed.  VMWare presents things to the SCSI bus, = in the order they=E2=80=99re added ot the = system:

Virtual Disk 1: = /dev/da0
Virtual Disk 2:/dev/da1
Virtual Disk = 3:/dev/da2

What happens when I shut down, = remove that second device, and reboot?  Disk 3 gets renumberd to = disk 2, and gets seen as da1.

That=E2=80=99s my = use case.  Using /dev/daX in here is always suceptible to that = problem.

But=E2=80=A6when the device entries = don=E2=80=99t show up, either immediately, and on reboot, and the = manpages don=E2=80=99t tell me how to rescan the thing, then I turn to = -questions = :)

-Dan

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[212.227.126.134]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "Telekom Security ServerID OV Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PyRgX0Pbyz3k64 for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 06:41:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.5.233.107]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue010 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MRTAj-1q1h4q080r-00NUNV; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 08:41:41 +0200 Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2023 08:41:39 +0200 From: Polytropon To: "Dan Mahoney (Ports)" Cc: "questions@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: filesystem labels? Message-Id: <20230414084139.8b2d91dc.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <82C015E0-71B9-4189-AA84-71219CA14E73@gushi.org> References: <20230413111708.62d8c8d3.freebsd@edvax.de> <82C015E0-71B9-4189-AA84-71219CA14E73@gushi.org> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:eCINAzlxvM7/rGPAV6XZRlP8bdMZIOl5eg+7PiYWPJbkE4NiLB4 PXrXeRo4R5GtMl679S9nNc23UOt3t3omThH7gjXXc4jnOIH5IZe8svENbfTRcPh4j/wCJIY LtQWVL6ReHj0n1QB6ThTQeKKKjhpqBDl7BerquLlIgfmdBxGsK01exyeq9KqkqhvkKlxsCq 9mGHZqR/dq/Je076xMjFw== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:cuGpgCWJRl0=;n5C63GKTDn+BjQgllE2a8GL/9G4 oI7PQ/1JMI/sNhTsP5SGp1hz42XajEVUNpN076LMPIRtrji7d7c5mh2GpNl93YHNwAEYFRhhG ad6zHJDUgy3DFz/xTQ6wvh8CXkbKWUqJGFAl/IP5YKtmvczklO6y1vCMNwfw0x3DM3yD2IdkU RSObXGLqybB+DbIfwXQ0OvOxGaoaTbzPSeLUxlYrK0VAO6KDQLifKmzi7NqxzRTom8iYPMa6u Y/FWuF7L1HTCP4PwXU5qdQBttcAvKDyixb5YxZIz31FEQb1d5CMrWwFez+2mDPBSzgX6PQx4u 28+EXZtrx/l8s05SX4wtUk2nC72HdUug+6Ni42AUPi9tmOBuCJf6By0U9aePyQTQ/z/hAHnb6 /GjF8VzWhIMxCOyWbqdQmk4bHVShMvffldxluUj3YZrjkZOBVOhcAfJgL6++SqwQYhzaflo1z jCm8onkt4z4ErcxKR/RAnLnr2VXSkkB5CV1rnEOf5nen+5d7XdjuN4xOdAAD75aNTZCW0wEna MyHjlRYRL9JylpBU99pC4WAYbKnaNf97C/ZNOB7ZJaUcMFWI7EiHf3boBU6rShDQpat9sXXeT lBQd8OTIH/1UvAedMnuucU1V4R6+rSnbpAh7rRluUzfNlUAy95FwlrDzdgxDrDoDx8b9vAtkw 0y5qnnd70qQxnQEZVVrVVaE7Z4cdz3HXKUdoXGgALQ== X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PyRgX0Pbyz3k64 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 21:42:27 -0700, Dan Mahoney (Ports) wrote: > > > > On Apr 13, 2023, at 2:17 AM, Polytropon wrote: > > > > On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 08:58:22 -0700, Dan Mahoney (Ports) wrote: > >> I find that the handbook mentions glabel labels, but several > >> other places say don’t use them. > > > > For example? > > > > THis is a honest question, because in my experience glabels > > are a common solution for disk labelling. > > Warren Block (see the wonkitty link below? Same person.) said > in this old post to avoid it if you can: > > https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/odd-dax-device-mapping-in-freebsd-9-1-rc1.34676/ > > It’s also specific not only to an OS type, but also a fliesystem > type, whereas if you’re using GPT disks. Sorry, yes, stupid before input. ;-) GPT labels (!) are today's typical solution, because they are "already included" with GPT partitioning, and that partitioning scheme is the one to use today, especially in combination with EFI. Using MBR partitioning or no partitioning at all should only be done if you have a good reason _not_ to use GPT. As I mentioned, all other labelling mechanisms (glabel, disklabel, UFS label, UFSID) are of course supported, so if you want to use them, it will surely work. The tool glabel can be seen as being part of the suite of glabel, gmirror, gstripe, gconcat, gvinum, gjournal and "the other GEOM stuff". > Right now, the problem I’ve found is that even though I just > added a new device, and labeled it, it doesn’t show up in > /dev/gpt/anything — and even /dev/gpt doesn’t exist, despite > having previous GPT disks in the system, at boot. The new > drive doesn’t show in /dev/gpt even after a reboot. As /dev is dynamically generated, it will appear as soon as the disk logical drivers require it. The support has to be in the kernel, but it's the default anyway. Sometimes it seems to be required to "taste" a drive: # true > /dev/da1 This looks dangerous, but is supposed to be the correct way, especially when using USB memory sticks or SD cards. This causes the system to generate all neccessary files in /dev. > There are mentions of a number of sysctls that one *can* set, > but not a great list of what they do. > > root@collect-us:/home/dmahoney # sysctl -a | grep geom.label > kern.features.geom_label: 1 > kern.geom.label.disk_ident.enable: 0 > kern.geom.label.gptid.enable: 1 > kern.geom.label.gpt.enable: 1 > kern.geom.label.ufs.enable: 1 > kern.geom.label.ufsid.enable: 1 > kern.geom.label.reiserfs.enable: 1 > kern.geom.label.ntfs.enable: 1 > kern.geom.label.msdosfs.enable: 1 > kern.geom.label.iso9660.enable: 1 > kern.geom.label.flashmap.enable: 1 > kern.geom.label.ext2fs.enable: 1 > kern.geom.label.debug: 0 > > What manpage would document any of the above? You can read a short description using # sysctl -d kern.geom.label Also see "man 8 glabel". A full (?) list of label-related tunables can be found here: https://gist.githubusercontent.com/visualblind/8856820034ecaa2b4aa8b1600baa90ed/raw/846edd44a57576b3355aae543fed882d30b84949/sysctl-tunables I don't know where to find that information on an installed system though... > >> Or should I just keep on using /dev/daX in fstab? > > > > Nothing wrong with that in a static environment, i. e., > > one where you can safely predict which devices wiill be > > detected in which order to conclude what their device > > filenames will be. Otherwise, go with GPT labels. > > In this particular setup, I had a virtual machine with three > disks, one of which was slated to be removed. VMWare presents > things to the SCSI bus, in the order they’re added ot the system: > > Virtual Disk 1: /dev/da0 > Virtual Disk 2:/dev/da1 > Virtual Disk 3:/dev/da2 Yes, that is the correct way and to be expected. > What happens when I shut down, remove that second device, > and reboot? Disk 3 gets renumberd to disk 2, and gets seen > as da1. > > That’s my use case. Using /dev/daX in here is always suceptible > to that problem. Correct, and that is where labels are the best solution. As you probably have partitioned your virtual disk devices with GPT (because, why would you use MBR?), use GPT labels, which will be listed in /dev/gpt. Use those in /etc/fstab instead of the logical device names, so for example instead of /dev/ada0p2, use /dev/gpt/sysroot; /dev/ada0p2 becomes /dev/gpt/swapspace (or whatever name you assigned). NB: Dealing with gpart partition creation and destruction sometimes requires you to set # sysctl kern.geom.debugflags=16 in order to override some security mechanisms which could interfere with what you're intending. But don't ask me where this has been properly documented... ;-) > But…when the device entries don’t show up, either immediately, > and on reboot, and the manpages don’t tell me how to rescan > the thing, then I turn to -questions :) At least after a system reboot the labels should be visible to the system (or after "re-tasting", see above). Verify that you have successfully (!) written the labels by using # gpart list and check the partition(s) for "label:" entries. Each provider should have received one. For example: # gpart list | grep -e "Name" -e "label" 1. Name: ada0p1 label: biosboot 2. Name: ada0p2 label: sysroot 3. Name: ada0p3 label: swapspace This all of course depends on how you've created your partitions. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From nobody Fri Apr 14 15:46:22 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Pygm24vCrz45TPP for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:46:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carlj@peak.org) Received: from mail.nrtc.syn-alias.com (mail.nrtc.syn-alias.com [129.213.214.220]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Pygm11N08z4l2n for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:46:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carlj@peak.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of carlj@peak.org designates 129.213.214.220 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=carlj@peak.org; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=peak.org X-Authed-Username: Y2FybGpAcGVhay5vcmc= Received: from [199.58.99.70] ([199.58.99.70:38848] helo=bay.localnet) by mail.peak.org (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 4.4.0.19839 r(msys-ecelerity:tags/4.4.0.0^0)) with ESMTPA id 10/A2-15546-F4579346; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 11:46:23 -0400 Received: from carlj by bay.localnet with local (Exim 4.95 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1pnLd0-000AOj-KQ for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 08:46:22 -0700 From: Carl Johnson To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: filesystem labels? References: <20230413111708.62d8c8d3.freebsd@edvax.de> <82C015E0-71B9-4189-AA84-71219CA14E73@gushi.org> <20230414084139.8b2d91dc.freebsd@edvax.de> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2023 08:46:22 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20230414084139.8b2d91dc.freebsd@edvax.de> (Polytropon's message of "Fri, 14 Apr 2023 08:41:39 +0200") Message-ID: <86y1mu8o1d.fsf@bay.localnet> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.2 (berkeley-unix) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Vade-Verdict: clean X-Vade-Analysis-1: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvhedrvdeltddgleefucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhho X-Vade-Analysis-2: fhhilhgvmecuufgjpfetvefqtfdppfftvfevpdfgpfggqdfptffvvedpqfgfvfenuceurghilhhouhht X-Vade-Analysis-3: mecufedtudenucenucfjughrpefhvffufhffjgfkfgggtgesthdttddttdertdenucfhrhhomhepvegr X-Vade-Analysis-4: rhhlucflohhhnhhsohhnuceotggrrhhljhesphgvrghkrdhorhhgqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpedv X-Vade-Analysis-5: geffueejudffieekfeettdeftdelleeuhfehfefggeefiedukefgleejieehgeenucfkphepudelledr X-Vade-Analysis-6: heekrdelledrjedtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehinhgvthepudelledr X-Vade-Analysis-7: heekrdelledrjedtpdhhvghlohepsggrhidrlhhotggrlhhnvghtpdhmrghilhhfrhhomheptggrrhhl X-Vade-Analysis-8: jhesphgvrghkrdhorhhgpdhrtghpthhtohepfhhrvggvsghsugdqqhhuvghsthhiohhnshesfhhrvggv X-Vade-Analysis-9: sghsugdrohhrghdpmhhtrghhohhsthepshhmthhptdefrdhnrhhttgdrvghmrghilhdqrghshhdurdhs X-Vade-Analysis-10: hihntgdrlhgrnhdpnhgspghrtghpthhtohepuddpihhspghnrgepthhruhgvpdgruhhthhgpuhhsvghr X-Vade-Analysis-11: pegtrghrlhhjsehpvggrkhdrohhrgh X-Vade-Client: NRTC X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.23 / 15.00]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.990]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[peak.org,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.44)[-0.436]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:129.213.214.220]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; ASN(0.00)[asn:31898, ipnet:129.213.208.0/21, country:US]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[129.213.214.220:from]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[129.213.214.220:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Pygm11N08z4l2n X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N Polytropon writes: > > NB: Dealing with gpart partition creation and destruction > sometimes requires you to set > > # sysctl kern.geom.debugflags=16 > > in order to override some security mechanisms which could > interfere with what you're intending. But don't ask me where > this has been properly documented... ;-) That is somewhat documented in the geom(4) manpage. That is covered as: 0x10 (allow foot shooting) Allow writing to Rank 1 providers. This would, for example, allow the super-user to overwrite the MBR on the root disk or write random sectors elsewhere to a mounted disk. The implications are obvious. There are settings for bits 0x01 - 0x80. -- Carl Johnson carlj@peak.org From nobody Fri Apr 14 21:43:38 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PyqhL1BPYz44r8H for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 21:43:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from doug@safeport.com) Received: from freeport.safeport.com (freeport.safeport.com [147.160.157.114]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PyqhK2Dvtz3kCv for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 21:43:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from doug@safeport.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of doug@safeport.com designates 147.160.157.114 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=doug@safeport.com Received: from bucksport.safeport.com (bucksport.safeport.com [147.160.157.15]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by freeport.safeport.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5806F44FF86 for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 17:43:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2023 17:43:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Doug Denault To: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Installing sound card driver Message-ID: User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PyqhK2Dvtz3kCv X-Spamd-Bar: / X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.30 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:147.160.157.114]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6405, ipnet:147.160.157.0/24, country:US]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG]; local_wl_ip(0.00)[147.160.157.114]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=multimap; Matched map: local_wl_ip X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N I am trying to set up audio on FreeBSD 12.4-RELEASE-p1 following the handbook and the FreeBSD foundation wiki So /boot/loader.conf is: cat /dev/sndstat next: cat /dev/sndstat cat /dev/sndstat Installed devices: pcm0: (play/rec) default pcm1: (play/rec) No devices installed from userspace. dmesg | grep pcm pcm0: at nid 20,21 and 26 on hdaa1 pcm1: at nid 24 on hdaa1 pcm0: at nid 26 on hdaa1 pcm1: at nid 27 and 24 on hdaa1 Following the setting to add for audio (I do not care about the mic) I added the following to /boot/device.hints hint.hdac.1.cad1.nid26.config="as=2 seq=1 device=speakers" Then cat /dev/sndstat Installed devices: pcm0: (play/rec) default pcm1: (play/rec) No devices installed from userspace. I assume I did not translate the output properly or this is just something I missed. _____ Douglas Denault http://www.safeport.com doug@safeport.com Voice: 301-217-9220 Fax: 301-217-9277 From nobody Fri Apr 14 22:12:18 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PyrKL5Ykcz44vD1 for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 22:12:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from infoomatic@gmx.at) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.gmx.net", Issuer "Telekom Security ServerID OV Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PyrKK5k32z3GYY for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 22:12:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from infoomatic@gmx.at) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; 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Sat, 15 Apr 2023 00:12:19 +0200 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2023 00:12:18 +0200 List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.10.0 From: infoomatic Subject: Re: Docker To: questions@freebsd.org References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> <543289768.3317542.1681394425362@mail.yahoo.com> Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:3PYyNmjWntQBDWN669xJT2y1Qg4bWsAorBfXPZwN57HGakGO7pO WHtGsUPBQjvQSVFJAb7hqKp4vVAv611Mm+/GnDveaRYxncSratG903lSkgW0I0/Z2a79pdH CKJXfIKBFLZ7vWLklL2DOJC/nLmtf6SDY1YC4HS7LGq5Vx6CREzDBU29wV56ZMcnK0aKi9M DlaeT1YSYHYd3M4PQ7foQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:YoIzGr27jy4=;VRix15v7nuCPctsjlOZ4q2Wh9Uo yOrhZR4BBQ8d95HTOnz9YTSE21AtBscuVnoEOS7YF2lHoMZpDqOT/ZHzdGO9P3dkQ0L4X+Nv+ +2zmcnm87tKN4VPINvbyoPQYirqYpBPQd6yh/aHver7DkPpWc4eTPS05aYhlQcSjvYBBOWrKt 5zJAi82nkeH5PbKqb8s+EwX04DCSr0JApgtkNertK0ovqrxX4Giu5TX5Jwa6Kd5ZKdfYSqNvD gRdYNpAcgrzhAZYUCUl/F5eDYxbcEr19FwypPJyb6+FNvZK1Alk1Y9KOP7nulLDjxfxm6EH64 99fOm5GFcKjpk6Mo0JvLA13uXHlW+XPs55DrrUV3Q5LP8q0v0DZaPxOLAMi3ZkyNC4PoxOe7r RC28Uzxp1e/06XijuKlMVvV8XAeRgteTGzUyfmO3rN6aGAEvUY5mq+T5vsB7nCKk0ZSXjC1IH 3jWmJ7NYdGYn99nYep6QfBvKB+ikYbNMtyL2OtzG6niTLZL2gJY1DXP5U3WBVwwRFyk9EyrtX myrlLVOyvD+JG1hMNYlNoH6OJhWTvjDmWtNZX51BfbfWsnT+ltU1bE8zl7EwUBgN7ZwXepIrd iO+b/R9F/CQ1EZLMTbqF2nbFynF4AceiEYYUZGPKQOrVONNsfdK4ZZrj5jq6a5T9mgN/8Ex4B lD4ApnSQWCInNcGvv+DJakRzJ1qGCpsKZWtyRHqQ5O5FK+rgTI41sk2+zxgfPoRRs5hq2x0hY TBYBYI7Sv5l4SkDvK7g4n6mGkn3dJrzq2/emu3ClxqgcnRPvQUoUniIJUEO4pGW50PFEGJhjG gXF2FROQQiHmompfUcgLQd+duPiknly0uBx3s63a3WBgSmj4/s4AbSlp1hDdMVHEKMe9iUtcw cXume/hge6J1oFKhjkrzsmJGinuJCkvDyXzihkPKKHoaFDY7XvhfZTXWWUul8pSiP9fHyjyEa T0CaAw== X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.10 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmx.at,none]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmx.at:s=s31663417]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:212.227.15.0/25]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[212.227.15.18:from]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.15.18:from]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmx.at:+]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmx.at]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmx.at]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PyrKK5k32z3GYY X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N I think docker is a good example of how to NOT do things. There is a reason why it is dying, lots of bad things have happened in docker land. However, let me post my opinion. We can distinguish between two different types of containerizations: system level containers and applications level containers. Linux LXC and FreeBSD jails fall into the former category. OCI containers fall into the application level container category and are moving away from the awkward Docker stack to sane solutions: podman, containerd, cri-o etc. The basic idea is: I have a repository which provides signed images for the users to pull and use as a running container. For software vendors, I can create an image which is basically a tar with the files and layered filesystems that can be pushed to the repository. Just like a jail, all the needed software, libraries are contained in one image, but easier accessible for users. The container consists of filesystem layers identified by a hash, which can be referenced to by other containers (e.g. a Debian Linux container in its minimal edition might be the base for the Kali Linux penetration testing container). Files that should persist are mounted via mount_nullfs into the container. The cool thing about that is: the images are created using a declarative manner, a yaml file. FreeBSD already provides lots of the technology necessary to build that (I am not talking about running Linux containers, but FreeBSD application level containers), however, it just lacks some glue like a system for defining a config file from which such a container is built, a repo, and I have no idea about how stable/performant unionfs is. Unfortunately I have not yet had time to look at the proposed projects of this thread. A few use cases come to mind (well, actually much more since I have worked with OCI/"Docker" since the beginning): "I want to host a simple public jitsi server, do not want to go through all the config. Someone made such a setup already and pushed that container to some repo, oh nice, let's just pull it and run it", or maybe: "oh, I do want to use keepass as password manager, but do not want it to be able to make network connections. Fine, just download the container and forbid network access." I am a lazy guy, I prefer spending my time on creating stuff and pushing it to a repository instead of fumbling around with ansible scripts to deploy that stuff when pushing and pulling an upgrade is so much easier via providing self-contained images. So, yes, I would absolutely love to see application level containers, or such a slick framework built around the great jail solution we already have. Passing around containers as a single binary package for FreeBSD - one may dream ;-) Regards, Robert On 13.04.23 17:43, Mario Marietto wrote: > For sure not everything,but something that is very requested and that it > has given a solid proof to be a valid and robust tool. I think Docker > has all these requisites. > From nobody Fri Apr 14 22:36:15 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Pyrry36Qxz44xJY for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 22:36:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic316-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic316-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.187.147]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Pyrry12Fhz4HrG for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 22:36:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1681511776; bh=zEwGuCReZyYYPVegRn83ko5ympvOHlKokJhZgFY8Gs8=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject:Reply-To; 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Fri, 14 Apr 2023 22:36:16 +0000 Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2023 22:36:15 +0000 (UTC) From: Paul Pathiakis To: "questions@freebsd.org" , infoomatic Message-ID: <887947753.4080046.1681511775374@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> <543289768.3317542.1681394425362@mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Docker List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4080045_349025968.1681511775371" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21365 YMailNorrin X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Pyrry12Fhz4HrG X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N ------=_Part_4080045_349025968.1681511775371 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Personally, I think jails are brilliant and their evolution has also been b= rilliant. Gee, a complete operating system contained as a process running under the p= arent process that behaves just like the parent OS.You can upgrade the OS, = the pkgs, etc. I really don't think it would be hard to create a 'library' of jails. Here's a postfix jailHere's a DNS jailHere's a PostGreSQL jail You can run your jails via the "Master Jailer"You can create your/library o= f jails via "Jailer Key"You could put them in the "Jail Cell" of repositori= es I actually created this on my server when I was running my now defunct comp= any. Literally, 40-50 jails that were running on my server that was a couple of = Opteron chips on a SuperMicro system.=C2=A0 It never so much had a load on = it of 2-3 and it was doing so much. It was so easy to upgrade the OS versions on the jails and the ports (had t= o run ports for bug fixes)=C2=A0=C2=A0 I had some serious 'white hat' friends that offered to do pen testing....= =C2=A0 (I was running PF with redirects to the ports in the jails and nothi= ng else was open on them)... I got so many beers when they gave up. :) Truly, believe podman and containerd are going to be a serious improvement/= change.=C2=A0 However, at home, on my machines, FreeBSD 13.1 and 13.2 will = be this weekend. My gf and her 85 y.o mom are running GhostBSD right now.=C2=A0 THEY HAVE LO= VED IT for the last 5 years. Paul On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 03:12:56 PM PDT, infoomatic wrote: =20 =20 I think docker is a good example of how to NOT do things. There is a reason why it is dying, lots of bad things have happened in docker land. However, let me post my opinion. We can distinguish between two different types of containerizations: system level containers and applications level containers. Linux LXC and FreeBSD jails fall into the former category. OCI containers fall into the application level container category and are moving away from the awkward Docker stack to sane solutions: podman, containerd, cri-o etc. The basic idea is: I have a repository which provides signed images for the users to pull and use as a running container. For software vendors, I can create an image which is basically a tar with the files and layered filesystems that can be pushed to the repository. Just like a jail, all the needed software, libraries are contained in one image, but easier accessible for users. The container consists of filesystem layers identified by a hash, which can be referenced to by other containers (e.g. a Debian Linux container in its minimal edition might be the base for the Kali Linux penetration testing container). Files that should persist are mounted via mount_nullfs into the container. The cool thing about that is: the images are created using a declarative manner, a yaml file. FreeBSD already provides lots of the technology necessary to build that (I am not talking about running Linux containers, but FreeBSD application level containers), however, it just lacks some glue like a system for defining a config file from which such a container is built, a repo, and I have no idea about how stable/performant unionfs is. Unfortunately I have not yet had time to look at the proposed projects of this thread. A few use cases come to mind (well, actually much more since I have worked with OCI/"Docker" since the beginning): "I want to host a simple public jitsi server, do not want to go through all the config. Someone made such a setup already and pushed that container to some repo, oh nice, let's just pull it and run it", or maybe: "oh, I do want to use keepass as password manager, but do not want it to be able to make network connections. Fine, just download the container and forbid network access." I am a lazy guy, I prefer spending my time on creating stuff and pushing it to a repository instead of fumbling around with ansible scripts to deploy that stuff when pushing and pulling an upgrade is so much easier via providing self-contained images. So, yes, I would absolutely love to see application level containers, or such a slick framework built around the great jail solution we already have. Passing around containers as a single binary package for FreeBSD - one may dream ;-) Regards, Robert On 13.04.23 17:43, Mario Marietto wrote: > For sure not everything,but something that is very requested and that it > has given a solid proof to be a valid and robust tool. I think Docker > has all these requisites. > =20 ------=_Part_4080045_349025968.1681511775371 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

Person= ally, I think jails are brilliant and their evolution has also been brillia= nt.

Gee, a complete operating system contained as a proce= ss running under the parent process that behaves just like the parent OS.
You can upgrade the OS, the pkgs= , etc.

I really don't think it would be hard to create a = 'library' of jails.

<= div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Here's a postfix jail
Here's a DNS jail
Here's a PostGreSQL jail

You can run yo= ur jails via the "Master Jailer"
You can create your/library of jails via "Jailer Key"
You could put them in the "Jail Cell" of repositor= ies

I actually created this on my server when I was runni= ng my now defunct company.

=
Literally, 40-50 jails that we= re running on my server that was a couple of Opteron chips on a SuperMicro = system.  It never so much had a load on it of 2-3 and it was doing so = much.

It was so easy to upgrade the OS versions on the ja= ils and the ports (had to run ports for bug fixes)  

I had some serious 'white hat' friends that offered to do pen testing= ....  (I was running PF with redirects to the ports in the jails and n= othing else was open on them)... I got so many beers when they gave up. :)<= /div>

Truly, believe podman and containerd are going to be a se= rious improvement/change.  However, at home, on my machines, FreeBSD 1= 3.1 and 13.2 will be this weekend.

My gf and her 85 y.o m= om are running GhostBSD right now.  THEY HAVE LOVED IT for the last 5 = years.

Paul

=20
=20
On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 03:12:56 PM PDT, infoomati= c <infoomatic@gmx.at> wrote:


I think docker is a good example of h= ow to NOT do things. There is a
reason why it is = dying, lots of bad things have happened in docker land.

However, let me post my opinion. We can= distinguish between two
different types of conta= inerizations: system level containers and
applica= tions level containers. Linux LXC and FreeBSD jails fall into the
=
former category.

OCI containers fall into the application level container catego= ry and
are moving away from the awkward Docker st= ack to sane solutions: podman,
containerd, cri-o = etc.
The basic idea is: I have a repository which= provides signed images for
the users to pull and= use as a running container. For software vendors,
I can create an image which is basically a tar with the files and
layered filesystems that can be pushed to the repository= . Just like a
jail, all the needed software, libr= aries are contained in one image, but
easier acce= ssible for users. The container consists of filesystem layers
identified by a hash, which can be referenced to by other cont= ainers
(e.g. a Debian Linux container in its mini= mal edition might be the base
for the Kali Linux = penetration testing container). Files that should
persist are mounted via mount_nullfs into the container. The cool thing
about that is: the images are created using a decla= rative manner, a yaml
file.

FreeBSD already provides lots of the techno= logy necessary to build that
(I am not talking ab= out running Linux containers, but FreeBSD
applica= tion level containers), however, it just lacks some glue like a
system for defining a config file from which such a containe= r is built,
a repo, and I have no idea about how = stable/performant unionfs is.
Unfortunately I hav= e not yet had time to look at the proposed projects
of this thread.

A f= ew use cases come to mind (well, actually much more since I have
<= div dir=3D"ltr">worked with OCI/"Docker" since the beginning): "I want to h= ost a simple
public jitsi server, do not want to = go through all the config. Someone
made such a se= tup already and pushed that container to some repo, oh
nice, let's just pull it and run it", or maybe: "oh, I do want to use=
keepass as password manager, but do not want it = to be able to make
network connections. Fine, jus= t download the container and forbid
network acces= s." I am a lazy guy, I prefer spending my time on creating
stuff and pushing it to a repository instead of fumbling around w= ith
ansible scripts to deploy that stuff when pus= hing and pulling an upgrade
is so much easier via= providing self-contained images.

So, yes, I would absolutely love to see application level conta= iners, or
such a slick framework built around the= great jail solution we already
have. Passing aro= und containers as a single binary package for FreeBSD -
one may dream ;-)

Regards,
Robert

On 13.04.23 17:43, Mari= o Marietto wrote:
> For sure not everything,bu= t something that is very requested and that it
&g= t; has given a solid proof to be a valid and robust tool. I think Docker
> has all these requisites.
>


<= /div>
------=_Part_4080045_349025968.1681511775371-- From nobody Fri Apr 14 22:45:12 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Pys3y5lFyz44y4B for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 22:45:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yb1-xb32.google.com (mail-yb1-xb32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b32]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Pys3y4DlLz4Zp3 for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 22:45:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-yb1-xb32.google.com with SMTP id m14so3035332ybk.4 for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:45:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1681512348; x=1684104348; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=r449KYnkXUYJgpKt3UeLI54fXrFdCyRhp5orKq2DZh0=; b=aIIztJ+PAFS7w7NM0jrA2qhq/wURCha5Ave9gEXRxYrVVbr2yC+jG2sD6+9iFJGjqA 6zvqrgyP6fsTFSTB5ncpzLDazjqBzf7As1nLmato22XIcKnrd6gcSh6ncvQ8IwKAeikR a5K3qVjdFovJeXXCSiijP9IO7roXYhLFr4SBU7J8By3QI7sM0QWvzGg35u5rMJu8Zeym VGdtoDGceps96jquMK/qTlcz+7iuaTmlO3D4vbMTGq+7KvP86F9lT0gCm+SHs8/KPJfv NHf2ynb+NgGPEWrogFKfC5ov5oZIupzJ2iSOBBMsPQcrla/vBxmBZ8D7E5d8bSKdb/3H i99w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1681512348; x=1684104348; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=r449KYnkXUYJgpKt3UeLI54fXrFdCyRhp5orKq2DZh0=; b=hOAey1htzDBW/mpjm6H1AiXxApfEdIwfJwKCiQcVKKzSombOwHDZHa6WfIbHSdAnZT Xm1CUFyNzCCYC8/x1I+NYImzbE7QGjCc3uJxcKv38upwHhfisCb6F9U3PtGRktbs08vX HUkv+7bt6wH69tp8tzTWBLv/2HEtJcY3DgivUvQCUZ2zGdWtRJZ6pe7j3uAHFLUMa6YD A4HX0KyyLaaLsY9/zLSF5E7FBohZZ6rJWpwurB+hnTAskf0FUsOviUJG4B0CdE45ZPCm vz+6YzaQzVxWc2vAG56959NiJ7cor9Pm/r3pBLQT5NJSaxOxTg7Ms5mSiPUO3HbUkqqV 0CVw== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9cCk3mWcT4uiwwZi8Bhl5xbbyKdcVIaiCoX8OWURNqJrNQq46/b c0uPqOMmrjLu5rHAMjWFgR35XNZ1iAOCkd3kDm4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350a7MnZfpJAz6z31dUH1/pAZanwRZUqYct11gjSx4CHWaczMleu6dCtrVrhhNR3TElb8D44otYpN5tU0IycESp8= X-Received: by 2002:a25:d28a:0:b0:b8f:359f:2a20 with SMTP id j132-20020a25d28a000000b00b8f359f2a20mr3870657ybg.10.1681512348396; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:45:48 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> <543289768.3317542.1681394425362@mail.yahoo.com> <887947753.4080046.1681511775374@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <887947753.4080046.1681511775374@mail.yahoo.com> From: Mario Marietto Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2023 00:45:12 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Docker To: Paul Pathiakis Cc: "questions@freebsd.org" , infoomatic Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000036338805f9539aab" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Pys3y4DlLz4Zp3 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --00000000000036338805f9539aab Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So,let me understand : docker images aren't compatible with FreeBSD. Imagine that the FreeBSD jails will be not compatible with Linux. Wow,this is true interoperability. On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 12:36=E2=80=AFAM Paul Pathiakis wrote: > Hi, > > Personally, I think jails are brilliant and their evolution has also been > brilliant. > > Gee, a complete operating system contained as a process running under the > parent process that behaves just like the parent OS. > You can upgrade the OS, the pkgs, etc. > > I really don't think it would be hard to create a 'library' of jails. > > Here's a postfix jail > Here's a DNS jail > Here's a PostGreSQL jail > > You can run your jails via the "Master Jailer" > You can create your/library of jails via "Jailer Key" > You could put them in the "Jail Cell" of repositories > > I actually created this on my server when I was running my now defunct > company. > > Literally, 40-50 jails that were running on my server that was a couple o= f > Opteron chips on a SuperMicro system. It never so much had a load on it = of > 2-3 and it was doing so much. > > It was so easy to upgrade the OS versions on the jails and the ports (had > to run ports for bug fixes) > > I had some serious 'white hat' friends that offered to do pen testing.... > (I was running PF with redirects to the ports in the jails and nothing el= se > was open on them)... I got so many beers when they gave up. :) > > Truly, believe podman and containerd are going to be a serious > improvement/change. However, at home, on my machines, FreeBSD 13.1 and > 13.2 will be this weekend. > > My gf and her 85 y.o mom are running GhostBSD right now. THEY HAVE LOVED > IT for the last 5 years. > > Paul > > On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 03:12:56 PM PDT, infoomatic < > infoomatic@gmx.at> wrote: > > > I think docker is a good example of how to NOT do things. There is a > reason why it is dying, lots of bad things have happened in docker land. > > However, let me post my opinion. We can distinguish between two > different types of containerizations: system level containers and > applications level containers. Linux LXC and FreeBSD jails fall into the > former category. > > OCI containers fall into the application level container category and > are moving away from the awkward Docker stack to sane solutions: podman, > containerd, cri-o etc. > The basic idea is: I have a repository which provides signed images for > the users to pull and use as a running container. For software vendors, > I can create an image which is basically a tar with the files and > layered filesystems that can be pushed to the repository. Just like a > jail, all the needed software, libraries are contained in one image, but > easier accessible for users. The container consists of filesystem layers > identified by a hash, which can be referenced to by other containers > (e.g. a Debian Linux container in its minimal edition might be the base > for the Kali Linux penetration testing container). Files that should > persist are mounted via mount_nullfs into the container. The cool thing > about that is: the images are created using a declarative manner, a yaml > file. > > FreeBSD already provides lots of the technology necessary to build that > (I am not talking about running Linux containers, but FreeBSD > application level containers), however, it just lacks some glue like a > system for defining a config file from which such a container is built, > a repo, and I have no idea about how stable/performant unionfs is. > Unfortunately I have not yet had time to look at the proposed projects > of this thread. > > A few use cases come to mind (well, actually much more since I have > worked with OCI/"Docker" since the beginning): "I want to host a simple > public jitsi server, do not want to go through all the config. Someone > made such a setup already and pushed that container to some repo, oh > nice, let's just pull it and run it", or maybe: "oh, I do want to use > keepass as password manager, but do not want it to be able to make > network connections. Fine, just download the container and forbid > network access." I am a lazy guy, I prefer spending my time on creating > stuff and pushing it to a repository instead of fumbling around with > ansible scripts to deploy that stuff when pushing and pulling an upgrade > is so much easier via providing self-contained images. > > So, yes, I would absolutely love to see application level containers, or > such a slick framework built around the great jail solution we already > have. Passing around containers as a single binary package for FreeBSD - > one may dream ;-) > > Regards, > Robert > > > On 13.04.23 17:43, Mario Marietto wrote: > > For sure not everything,but something that is very requested and that i= t > > has given a solid proof to be a valid and robust tool. I think Docker > > has all these requisites. > > > > > --=20 Mario. --00000000000036338805f9539aab Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
So,let me understand : docker images aren't compatible= with FreeBSD. Imagine that the FreeBSD jails will be not compatible with L= inux. Wow,this is true interoperability.

=
On Sat, Ap= r 15, 2023 at 12:36=E2=80=AFAM Paul Pathiakis <pathiaki2@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi,

Personally, I think jails are brilliant and their evolution has also bee= n brilliant.

Gee, a comple= te operating system contained as a process running under the parent process= that behaves just like the parent OS.
You can upgrad= e the OS, the pkgs, etc.

I= really don't think it would be hard to create a 'library' of j= ails.

Here's a postfix= jail
Here's a DNS jail
Her= e's a PostGreSQL jail

= You can run your jails via the "Master Jailer"
You can create your/library of jails via "Jailer Key"
You could put them in the "Jail Cell" of repositor= ies

I actually created thi= s on my server when I was running my now defunct company.

Literally, 40-50 jails that were running on= my server that was a couple of Opteron chips on a SuperMicro system.=C2=A0= It never so much had a load on it of 2-3 and it was doing so much.

It was so easy to upgrade the OS = versions on the jails and the ports (had to run ports for bug fixes)=C2=A0= =C2=A0

I had some serious = 'white hat' friends that offered to do pen testing....=C2=A0 (I was= running PF with redirects to the ports in the jails and nothing else was o= pen on them)... I got so many beers when they gave up. :)

Truly, believe podman and containerd are go= ing to be a serious improvement/change.=C2=A0 However, at home, on my machi= nes, FreeBSD 13.1 and 13.2 will be this weekend.

=
My gf and her 85 y.o mom are running GhostBSD right = now.=C2=A0 THEY HAVE LOVED IT for the last 5 years.
<= br>
Paul

=20
=20
On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 03:12:56 PM PDT, infoomati= c <infoomatic@gmx= .at> wrote:


I think docker is a good example of h= ow to NOT do things. There is a
reason why it is = dying, lots of bad things have happened in docker land.

However, let me post my opinion. We can= distinguish between two
different types of conta= inerizations: system level containers and
applica= tions level containers. Linux LXC and FreeBSD jails fall into the
=
former category.

OCI containers fall into the application level container catego= ry and
are moving away from the awkward Docker st= ack to sane solutions: podman,
containerd, cri-o = etc.
The basic idea is: I have a repository which= provides signed images for
the users to pull and= use as a running container. For software vendors,
I can create an image which is basically a tar with the files and
layered filesystems that can be pushed to the repository= . Just like a
jail, all the needed software, libr= aries are contained in one image, but
easier acce= ssible for users. The container consists of filesystem layers
identified by a hash, which can be referenced to by other cont= ainers
(e.g. a Debian Linux container in its mini= mal edition might be the base
for the Kali Linux = penetration testing container). Files that should
persist are mounted via mount_nullfs into the container. The cool thing
about that is: the images are created using a decla= rative manner, a yaml
file.

FreeBSD already provides lots of the techno= logy necessary to build that
(I am not talking ab= out running Linux containers, but FreeBSD
applica= tion level containers), however, it just lacks some glue like a
system for defining a config file from which such a containe= r is built,
a repo, and I have no idea about how = stable/performant unionfs is.
Unfortunately I hav= e not yet had time to look at the proposed projects
of this thread.

A f= ew use cases come to mind (well, actually much more since I have
<= div dir=3D"ltr">worked with OCI/"Docker" since the beginning): &q= uot;I want to host a simple
public jitsi server, = do not want to go through all the config. Someone
made such a setup already and pushed that container to some repo, oh
nice, let's just pull it and run it", or mayb= e: "oh, I do want to use
keepass as password= manager, but do not want it to be able to make
n= etwork connections. Fine, just download the container and forbid
<= div dir=3D"ltr">network access." I am a lazy guy, I prefer spending my= time on creating
stuff and pushing it to a repos= itory instead of fumbling around with
ansible scr= ipts to deploy that stuff when pushing and pulling an upgrade
is so much easier via providing self-contained images.

So, yes, I would absolutely l= ove to see application level containers, or
such = a slick framework built around the great jail solution we already
=
have. Passing around containers as a single binary package= for FreeBSD -
one may dream ;-)

Regards,
Rob= ert


On 13.04.23 17:43, Mario Marietto wrote:
> For sure not everything,but something that is very requested and that= it
> has given a solid proof to be a valid an= d robust tool. I think Docker
> has all these = requisites.
>




--
Mario.
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Fri, 14 Apr 2023 23:20:22 +0000 Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2023 23:20:19 +0000 (UTC) From: Paul Pathiakis To: Mario Marietto Cc: "questions@freebsd.org" , infoomatic Message-ID: <1390653293.4101184.1681514419818@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> <543289768.3317542.1681394425362@mail.yahoo.com> <887947753.4080046.1681511775374@mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Docker List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4101183_520072997.1681514419814" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21365 YMailNorrin X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Pysqr3G9Wz4GMm X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N ------=_Part_4101183_520072997.1681514419814 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Simply put, Linux could have done the same thing as jails but opted to not= go in a standardized direction. Instead, they went into a direction proprietary kernel hooks.=C2=A0 The peo= ple in the BSD world are always doing project review before even thinking o= f writing code. Look at how jails are designed.=C2=A0 There are no proprietary hooks in my = mind.=C2=A0 They just create a process that is nothing more than a process = in the kernel's process table.=C2=A0 Simple.=C2=A0 Straightforward. IF Linux had adopted a 'jail-like' design, there would be interoperability = to some degree.=C2=A0 Imagine that Linux had a real packaging system and po= rts system that didn't land the user in dependency hell on a constant basis= .=C2=A0 It could do a lot of things that jails do.=C2=A0 Linux community co= uld choose to do something like docker/podman but instead, have everything = that would make calls to package repos, OS versions, etc. I can run 4 different versions of PostgreSQL on 4 different versions of Fre= eBSD in 4 jails....=C2=A0 I could choose to upgrade any of the 4 versions o= f the operating system to something more recent (I tend to stay with -RELEA= SEs) and I could choose to stay with the OS versions and upgrade the versio= ns of PostGreSQL... mix, match, it all works FreeBSD does research, design and they take their time.=C2=A0 I have no pro= blems running on anything when it first releases.=C2=A0 I have actually see= n Linux kernels go through security and operation patches of as many as 20-= 30 in the first 3 months of release.=C2=A0 That's not proper design.=C2=A0 = That's not proper engineering. Again, someone stated before that the Linux community thinks 'containers' a= re the latest thing.... BSD people see them as mature 20 y.o. code.=C2=A0 *= shrug* Creating their hypervisor, BHYVE, I watched this community discuss it almos= t ad infinitum before starting the work. These are some of the prevalent differences between the philosophies of the= two communities.=C2=A0 The are more and maybe my interpretations are 100% = good/accurate. Also, remember, the BSD license is WIDE OPEN.... the Linux community could = have, at any time, borrowed the jails code and started a jails project... 2= 0 YEARS AGO. How about databases?=C2=A0 There was mySQL and MariaDB and MongoDB and Couc= hDB... etc etc etc.....=C2=A0 And there is Oracle.... and Sybase... oh... I= mean MS-SQL....=C2=A0 25 years ago.... PostGreSQL...=C2=A0 Free!!!=C2=A0 O= PEN!!!! Still is!!!=C2=A0 Bigger, better, stronger and faster than all of t= hem.=C2=A0 People want to reinvent the wheel.=C2=A0 They should be applaude= d for that. However, after seeing round wheels, why in the heck would someone say "I wa= nt to start with my own SQUARE wheel" when there's someone giving away roun= d ones??=C2=A0 Well, I have yet to figure out if that's stupidity, arroganc= e or just plain lack of discipline and training and ego to not ask for help= . Paul On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 03:45:49 PM PDT, Mario Marietto wrote: =20 =20 So,let me understand : docker images aren't compatible with FreeBSD. Imagi= ne that the FreeBSD jails will be not compatible with Linux. Wow,this is tr= ue interoperability. On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 12:36=E2=80=AFAM Paul Pathiakis wrote: Hi, Personally, I think jails are brilliant and their evolution has also been b= rilliant. Gee, a complete operating system contained as a process running under the p= arent process that behaves just like the parent OS.You can upgrade the OS, = the pkgs, etc. I really don't think it would be hard to create a 'library' of jails. Here's a postfix jailHere's a DNS jailHere's a PostGreSQL jail You can run your jails via the "Master Jailer"You can create your/library o= f jails via "Jailer Key"You could put them in the "Jail Cell" of repositori= es I actually created this on my server when I was running my now defunct comp= any. Literally, 40-50 jails that were running on my server that was a couple of = Opteron chips on a SuperMicro system.=C2=A0 It never so much had a load on = it of 2-3 and it was doing so much. It was so easy to upgrade the OS versions on the jails and the ports (had t= o run ports for bug fixes)=C2=A0=C2=A0 I had some serious 'white hat' friends that offered to do pen testing....= =C2=A0 (I was running PF with redirects to the ports in the jails and nothi= ng else was open on them)... I got so many beers when they gave up. :) Truly, believe podman and containerd are going to be a serious improvement/= change.=C2=A0 However, at home, on my machines, FreeBSD 13.1 and 13.2 will = be this weekend. My gf and her 85 y.o mom are running GhostBSD right now.=C2=A0 THEY HAVE LO= VED IT for the last 5 years. Paul On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 03:12:56 PM PDT, infoomatic wrote: =20 =20 I think docker is a good example of how to NOT do things. There is a reason why it is dying, lots of bad things have happened in docker land. However, let me post my opinion. We can distinguish between two different types of containerizations: system level containers and applications level containers. Linux LXC and FreeBSD jails fall into the former category. OCI containers fall into the application level container category and are moving away from the awkward Docker stack to sane solutions: podman, containerd, cri-o etc. The basic idea is: I have a repository which provides signed images for the users to pull and use as a running container. For software vendors, I can create an image which is basically a tar with the files and layered filesystems that can be pushed to the repository. Just like a jail, all the needed software, libraries are contained in one image, but easier accessible for users. The container consists of filesystem layers identified by a hash, which can be referenced to by other containers (e.g. a Debian Linux container in its minimal edition might be the base for the Kali Linux penetration testing container). Files that should persist are mounted via mount_nullfs into the container. The cool thing about that is: the images are created using a declarative manner, a yaml file. FreeBSD already provides lots of the technology necessary to build that (I am not talking about running Linux containers, but FreeBSD application level containers), however, it just lacks some glue like a system for defining a config file from which such a container is built, a repo, and I have no idea about how stable/performant unionfs is. Unfortunately I have not yet had time to look at the proposed projects of this thread. A few use cases come to mind (well, actually much more since I have worked with OCI/"Docker" since the beginning): "I want to host a simple public jitsi server, do not want to go through all the config. Someone made such a setup already and pushed that container to some repo, oh nice, let's just pull it and run it", or maybe: "oh, I do want to use keepass as password manager, but do not want it to be able to make network connections. Fine, just download the container and forbid network access." I am a lazy guy, I prefer spending my time on creating stuff and pushing it to a repository instead of fumbling around with ansible scripts to deploy that stuff when pushing and pulling an upgrade is so much easier via providing self-contained images. So, yes, I would absolutely love to see application level containers, or such a slick framework built around the great jail solution we already have. Passing around containers as a single binary package for FreeBSD - one may dream ;-) Regards, Robert On 13.04.23 17:43, Mario Marietto wrote: > For sure not everything,but something that is very requested and that it > has given a solid proof to be a valid and robust tool. I think Docker > has all these requisites. > =20 --=20 Mario. =20 ------=_Part_4101183_520072997.1681514419814 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Simply put, Linux could have= done the same thing as jails but opted to not go in a standardized directi= on.

Instead, they went into a direction proprietary kerne= l hooks.  The people in the BSD world are always doing project review = before even thinking of writing code.

Look at how jails a= re designed.  There are no proprietary hooks in my mind.  They ju= st create a process that is nothing more than a process in the kernel's pro= cess table.  Simple.  Straightforward.

IF Linux= had adopted a 'jail-like' design, there would be interoperability to some = degree.  Imagine that Linux had a real packaging system and ports syst= em that didn't land the user in dependency hell on a constant basis.  = It could do a lot of things that jails do.  Linux community could choo= se to do something like docker/podman but instead, have everything that wou= ld make calls to package repos, OS versions, etc.

I can r= un 4 different versions of PostgreSQL on 4 different versions of FreeBSD in= 4 jails....  I could choose to upgrade any of the 4 versions of the o= perating system to something more recent (I tend to stay with -RELEASEs) an= d I could choose to stay with the OS versions and upgrade the versions of P= ostGreSQL... mix, match, it all works

FreeBSD does resear= ch, design and they take their time.  I have no problems running on an= ything when it first releases.  I have actually seen Linux kernels go = through security and operation patches of as many as 20-30 in the first 3 m= onths of release.  That's not proper design.  That's not proper e= ngineering.

Again, someone stated before that the Linux = community thinks 'containers' are the latest thing.... BSD people see them = as mature 20 y.o. code.  *shrug*

Creating their hype= rvisor, BHYVE, I watched this community discuss it almost ad infinitum befo= re starting the work.

These are some of the prevalent dif= ferences between the philosophies of the two communities.  The are mor= e and maybe my interpretations are 100% good/accurate.

Al= so, remember, the BSD license is WIDE OPEN.... the Linux community could ha= ve, at any time, borrowed the jails code and started a jails project... 20 = YEARS AGO.

How about databases?  There was mySQL a= nd MariaDB and MongoDB and CouchDB... etc etc etc.....  And there is O= racle.... and Sybase... oh... I mean MS-SQL....  25 years ago.... Post= GreSQL...  Free!!!  OPEN!!!! Still is!!!  Bigger, better, st= ronger and faster than all of them.  People want to reinvent the wheel= .  They should be applauded for that.

However, after= seeing round wheels, why in the heck would someone say "I want to start wi= th my own SQUARE wheel" when there's someone giving away round ones?? = Well, I have yet to figure out if that's stupidity, arrogance or just plai= n lack of discipline and training and ego to not ask for help.

Paul

=20
=20
On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 03:45:49 PM PDT, Mario Mar= ietto <marietto2008@gmail.com> wrote:


So,let me understand : docker images aren't compatible with FreeBSD. I= magine that the FreeBSD jails will be not compatible with Linux. Wow,this is true interoperability.

<= div id=3D"ydpe4cab532yiv6171224177yqt24527" class=3D"ydpe4cab532yiv61712241= 77yqt4876069343">
On Sat, Apr 15, 2023= at 12:36=E2=80=AFAM Paul Pathiakis <pathiaki2@yahoo.com> wrote:


It was so easy to upgrade the OS versions= on the jails and the ports (had to run ports for bug fixes)  

I had some se= rious 'white hat' friends that offered to do pen testing....  (I was r= unning PF with redirects to the ports in the jails and nothing else was ope= n on them)... I got so many beers when they gave up. :)

Truly, believe podman and cont= ainerd are going to be a serious improvement/change.  However, at home= , on my machines, FreeBSD 13.1 and 13.2 will be this weekend.

My gf and her 85 y.o mom= are running GhostBSD right now.  THEY HAVE LOVED IT for the last 5 ye= ars.

Paul

=20
=20


I think docker is a good example of h= ow to NOT do things. There is a
re= ason why it is dying, lots of bad things have happened in docker land.

However, let me post my opinion. We can distinguish between two
different types of containerizations: sys= tem level containers and
applicati= ons level containers. Linux LXC and FreeBSD jails fall into the
former category.

OCI containers fall = into the application level container category and
<= div dir=3D"ltr">are moving away from the awkward Docker stack to sane solut= ions: podman,
containerd, cri-o et= c.
The basic idea is: I have a rep= ository which provides signed images for
the users to pull and use as a running container. For software ven= dors,
I can create an image which = is basically a tar with the files and
layered filesystems that can be pushed to the repository. Just like a
jail, all the needed software, libr= aries are contained in one image, but
easier accessible for users. The container consists of filesystem layer= s
identified by a hash, which can = be referenced to by other containers
(e.g. a Debian Linux container in its minimal edition might be the base<= br clear=3D"none">
for the Kali Linux penetration tes= ting container). Files that should
persist are mounted via mount_nullfs into the container. The cool thing
about that is: the images are create= d using a declarative manner, a yaml
file.

=
FreeBSD already provides lots of the technology necessary = to build that
(I am not talking ab= out running Linux containers, but FreeBSD
application level containers), however, it just lacks some glue li= ke a
system for defining a config = file from which such a container is built,
a repo, and I have no idea about how stable/performant unionfs is.=
Unfortunately I have not yet had = time to look at the proposed projects
of this thread.

A few use cases come to mind (well, actually mu= ch more since I have
worked with O= CI/"Docker" since the beginning): "I want to host a simple
public jitsi server, do not want to go through all= the config. Someone
made such a s= etup already and pushed that container to some repo, oh
<= /div>
nice, let's just pull it and run it", or maybe: "oh, = I do want to use
keepass as passwo= rd manager, but do not want it to be able to make
<= div dir=3D"ltr">network connections. Fine, just download the container and = forbid
network access." I am a laz= y guy, I prefer spending my time on creating
stuff and pushing it to a repository instead of fumbling around = with
ansible scripts to deploy tha= t stuff when pushing and pulling an upgrade
is so much easier via providing self-contained images.

= So, yes, I would absolutely love to see application level containers, or
such a slick framework built around = the great jail solution we already
have. Passing around containers as a single binary package for FreeBSD -
one may dream ;-)

Regards,<= br clear=3D"none">
Robert


=
On 13.04.23 17:43, Mario Marietto wrote:
> For sure not everything,but something th= at is very requested and that it
&= gt; has given a solid proof to be a valid and robust tool. I think Docker
> has all these requisites.
>




--
Mario.
------=_Part_4101183_520072997.1681514419814-- From nobody Fri Apr 14 23:21:00 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Pysrr0Mjpz452Cb for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 23:21:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-yb1-xb33.google.com (mail-yb1-xb33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b33]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Pysrq38MBz4J41 for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 23:21:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-yb1-xb33.google.com with SMTP id o11so1586933ybk.11 for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 16:21:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; t=1681514474; x=1684106474; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=bsx2hUTf+qC9088DJ4R7BNH0cMUSGFHH1Lqlq+EBE6I=; b=ESMPD46sI/1sTQNGvKmc/B75NgMOg0U4jT7muS7QXz5JJy+3ZYptYgKEsM2xQEsJc8 gZ3J52mwLlZR45sFC+sWuP/lslQJoQSjcmuLsHulasyEiNSSIQP2ToFIPZsup+CJmzqc p15uU7dHT3BsgkUvfVAFbj7NyZm7w6FDODkBESOxpeawrfNQtXbMFjsAf/wV921joRS1 4hvb6H95U1rmr26gszn0EeFev2N3RrrL94lidDrIFzPSFzcpnYI/NglajWThaFftRRJ5 HWGnhfKtjtyi9KjbLXUe5Q5DFY7alG0hRT1hLMUqEFikTumUvW6P56a14rEW5ZEdbgrK JsTg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1681514474; x=1684106474; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=bsx2hUTf+qC9088DJ4R7BNH0cMUSGFHH1Lqlq+EBE6I=; b=I59rCmDcvB5JKyZ1CcAeUG0XCn6DwHRBUK0O97sk+93CjCUojmc6gHoUJ5Iv8RhpV8 dFtUQnc/y/VlZVOQBN9WwzTKICP4WS5q8ye9zkScJ9QXP7HPcxFWCH1CDuYFZBm02iR6 aoawPs1KHAr2CNGLT8tp3DeLb6KyfrJbEfKv25WDNuprlvkJnz6taIp59bjloeHsFhjG d/q6zoMMZxHYDsVZxkMrz+BE5rGGFCic565y3fCyKWbnMtOQkJsoj5QqPU+/JByOB17N R8N3UnbWestWxZDI0FAYttSt4txIbdEZmzYLnRWv6C9nIotfY/KEYRJwCYNfgoSEHN0M QJaA== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9ckOf8dIdxH/5vJpNoX1oOHh7yE6Mm1b4vWdhnyu0VHZUhzB3Dy pXeb+IJ2kV9MwhbymghjgoKwLb7h1YmsmIE0X4o= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350aaA3icD9RnrtVRtXU8iJWzEWVL61dabJXo3X6QBKXhHMEOR+eWIsUGMpGv/CYDqo6BndZdGg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6902:1891:b0:b6a:514e:9d85 with SMTP id cj17-20020a056902189100b00b6a514e9d85mr7472897ybb.10.1681514473854; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 16:21:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-f179.google.com (mail-yb1-f179.google.com. [209.85.219.179]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s13-20020a819f0d000000b0054f8b201c70sm1471621ywn.108.2023.04.14.16.21.13 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 14 Apr 2023 16:21:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-f179.google.com with SMTP id g10so3716299ybu.8 for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 16:21:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a25:da89:0:b0:b8f:4f1d:be06 with SMTP id n131-20020a25da89000000b00b8f4f1dbe06mr4943323ybf.11.1681514472773; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 16:21:12 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> <543289768.3317542.1681394425362@mail.yahoo.com> <887947753.4080046.1681511775374@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: From: Tomek CEDRO Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2023 01:21:00 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Docker To: Mario Marietto Cc: Paul Pathiakis , "questions@freebsd.org" , infoomatic Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Pysrq38MBz4J41 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 12:46=E2=80=AFAM Mario Marietto wrote: > So,let me understand : docker images aren't compatible with FreeBSD. Imag= ine that the FreeBSD jails will be not compatible with Linux. Wow,this is t= rue interoperability. Mario, (Free)BSD is Unix derivative and thus standard compliant, look at sockets, IPv4, IPv6, Jails, ZFS, etc. It was Linux folks who invent things that are only compatible with Linux and only until new fancy pancy Linux only revelation is introduced then those solutions are not even Linux compatible anymore. "Progress by Enforced Changes"^TM. It was Docker that did not take other OS into consideration at design stage. It was SystemD that did not take other OS into consideration at design stage, and now lots of application follow that systemd core dependency making them hardly portable to any other OS. What about kernel API changes with every minor release that started around 2.4.11 (I was using Linux 2.0.36 / ~1998 .. 2.4.12 / ~2007)? Look at DRM mess it introduced to graphics driver world. How would you call that interoperability / portability / long term maintenance? Linux by design is self-incompatible. Do you really want us to to follow that "fashions" with a life span shorter than a yogurt? There are reasons for people avoiding Linux. --=20 CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From nobody Fri Apr 14 23:23:27 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PysvQ6xGFz4522b for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 23:23:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic312-24.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic312-24.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.191.205]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PysvQ29QCz4Mvb for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 23:23:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1681514608; bh=9z82WFA+ZlVYX+G2R6qAz92pIv2YS0Dj2JEV7+PhkrQ=; 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Fri, 14 Apr 2023 23:23:28 +0000 Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2023 23:23:27 +0000 (UTC) From: Paul Pathiakis To: Mario Marietto , Tomek CEDRO Cc: "questions@freebsd.org" , infoomatic Message-ID: <1870070951.4087869.1681514607383@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> <543289768.3317542.1681394425362@mail.yahoo.com> <887947753.4080046.1681511775374@mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Docker List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4087868_1609132222.1681514607381" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21365 YMailNorrin X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PysvQ29QCz4Mvb X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N ------=_Part_4087868_1609132222.1681514607381 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable omg... I guess they crossed in the ether... :D=C2=A0 absolutely On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 04:21:14 PM PDT, Tomek CEDRO wrote: =20 =20 On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 12:46=E2=80=AFAM Mario Marietto wrote: > So,let me understand : docker images aren't compatible with FreeBSD. Imag= ine that the FreeBSD jails will be not compatible with Linux. Wow,this is t= rue interoperability. Mario, (Free)BSD is Unix derivative and thus standard compliant, look at sockets, IPv4, IPv6, Jails, ZFS, etc. It was Linux folks who invent things that are only compatible with Linux and only until new fancy pancy Linux only revelation is introduced then those solutions are not even Linux compatible anymore. "Progress by Enforced Changes"^TM. It was Docker that did not take other OS into consideration at design stage. It was SystemD that did not take other OS into consideration at design stage, and now lots of application follow that systemd core dependency making them hardly portable to any other OS. What about kernel API changes with every minor release that started around 2.4.11 (I was using Linux 2.0.36 / ~1998 .. 2.4.12 / ~2007)?=C2=A0 Look at DRM mess it introduced to graphics driver world. How would you call that interoperability / portability / long term maintenance? Linux by design is self-incompatible. Do you really want us to to follow that "fashions" with a life span shorter than a yogurt? There are reasons for people avoiding Linux. --=20 CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info =20 ------=_Part_4087868_1609132222.1681514607381 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
omg... I guess they crossed = in the ether... :D  absolutely

=20
=20
On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 04:21:14 PM PDT, Tomek CED= RO <tomek@cedro.info> wrote:


On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 12:46=E2=80= =AFAM Mario Marietto wrote:
> So,let me unders= tand : docker images aren't compatible with FreeBSD. Imagine that the FreeB= SD jails will be not compatible with Linux. Wow,this is true interoperabili= ty.

Mario, (Free)BSD i= s Unix derivative and thus standard compliant, look
at sockets, IPv4, IPv6, Jails, ZFS, etc.

<= /div>
It was Linux folks who invent things that are only co= mpatible with
Linux and only until new fancy panc= y Linux only revelation is
introduced then those = solutions are not even Linux compatible anymore.
= "Progress by Enforced Changes"^TM. It was Docker that did not take
other OS into consideration at design stage. It was Syste= mD that did
not take other OS into consideration = at design stage, and now lots of
application foll= ow that systemd core dependency making them hardly
portable to any other OS. What about kernel API changes with every
minor release that started around 2.4.11 (I was using L= inux 2.0.36 /
~1998 .. 2.4.12 / ~2007)?  Loo= k at DRM mess it introduced to graphics
driver wo= rld. How would you call that interoperability / portability /
long term maintenance? Linux by design is self-incompatible. D= o you
really want us to to follow that "fashions"= with a life span shorter
than a yogurt?

There are reasons for people a= voiding Linux.

--
=
CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info
=
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Fri, 14 Apr 2023 23:27:58 +0000 Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2023 23:27:57 +0000 (UTC) From: Paul Pathiakis To: Mario Marietto , Tomek CEDRO Cc: "questions@freebsd.org" , infoomatic Message-ID: <1662553879.4100206.1681514877194@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> <543289768.3317542.1681394425362@mail.yahoo.com> <887947753.4080046.1681511775374@mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Docker List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4100205_1778170838.1681514877193" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21365 YMailNorrin X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Pyt0b3pX4z3Gkr X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N ------=_Part_4100205_1778170838.1681514877193 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Probably the best thing I saw that showed Linus' lack of understanding of = proper engineering=C2=A0was when he was talking on an announcement stage wi= th people from IBM, HP, etcand someone in the audience stated/asked:=C2=A0 = "I've been doing a code review of your kerneland I'm a bit worried.=C2=A0 I= see a lot of places where POSIX standards have not been implementedor inco= rrectly implement.=C2=A0 Will you be correcting the Linux kernel to POSIX c= ompliant?" After he said "No.=C2=A0 I don't feel I should be hampered by standards ove= r creativity (or some such)" Those company reps literally dragged him off the stage. Paul On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 04:21:14 PM PDT, Tomek CEDRO wrote: =20 =20 On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 12:46=E2=80=AFAM Mario Marietto wrote: > So,let me understand : docker images aren't compatible with FreeBSD. Imag= ine that the FreeBSD jails will be not compatible with Linux. Wow,this is t= rue interoperability. Mario, (Free)BSD is Unix derivative and thus standard compliant, look at sockets, IPv4, IPv6, Jails, ZFS, etc. It was Linux folks who invent things that are only compatible with Linux and only until new fancy pancy Linux only revelation is introduced then those solutions are not even Linux compatible anymore. "Progress by Enforced Changes"^TM. It was Docker that did not take other OS into consideration at design stage. It was SystemD that did not take other OS into consideration at design stage, and now lots of application follow that systemd core dependency making them hardly portable to any other OS. What about kernel API changes with every minor release that started around 2.4.11 (I was using Linux 2.0.36 / ~1998 .. 2.4.12 / ~2007)?=C2=A0 Look at DRM mess it introduced to graphics driver world. How would you call that interoperability / portability / long term maintenance? Linux by design is self-incompatible. Do you really want us to to follow that "fashions" with a life span shorter than a yogurt? There are reasons for people avoiding Linux. --=20 CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info =20 ------=_Part_4100205_1778170838.1681514877193 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Probably the best thing I sa= w that showed Linus' lack of understanding of proper engineering 
was when he was talking on an annou= ncement stage with people from IBM, HP, etc
and someone in the audience stated/asked:  "I've been doi= ng a code review of your kernel
and I'm a bit worried.  I see a lot of places where POSIX standards h= ave not been implemented
or inc= orrectly implement.  Will you be correcting the Linux kernel to POSIX = compliant?"

After he said "No.  I don't feel I shou= ld be hampered by standards over creativity (or some such)"

Those company reps literally dragged him off the stage.

Paul

=20
=20
On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 04:21:14 PM PDT, Tomek CED= RO <tomek@cedro.info> wrote:


On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 12:46=E2=80= =AFAM Mario Marietto wrote:
> So,let me unders= tand : docker images aren't compatible with FreeBSD. Imagine that the FreeB= SD jails will be not compatible with Linux. Wow,this is true interoperabili= ty.

Mario, (Free)BSD i= s Unix derivative and thus standard compliant, look
at sockets, IPv4, IPv6, Jails, ZFS, etc.

<= /div>
It was Linux folks who invent things that are only co= mpatible with
Linux and only until new fancy panc= y Linux only revelation is
introduced then those = solutions are not even Linux compatible anymore.
= "Progress by Enforced Changes"^TM. It was Docker that did not take
other OS into consideration at design stage. It was Syste= mD that did
not take other OS into consideration = at design stage, and now lots of
application foll= ow that systemd core dependency making them hardly
portable to any other OS. What about kernel API changes with every
minor release that started around 2.4.11 (I was using L= inux 2.0.36 /
~1998 .. 2.4.12 / ~2007)?  Loo= k at DRM mess it introduced to graphics
driver wo= rld. How would you call that interoperability / portability /
long term maintenance? Linux by design is self-incompatible. D= o you
really want us to to follow that "fashions"= with a life span shorter
than a yogurt?

There are reasons for people a= voiding Linux.

--
=
CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info
=
------=_Part_4100205_1778170838.1681514877193-- From nobody Fri Apr 14 23:29:04 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Pyt2712w8z452pQ for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 23:29:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-yw1-x112f.google.com (mail-yw1-x112f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::112f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Pyt266VGWz3KQ0 for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 23:29:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-yw1-x112f.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-54fa9da5e5bso169624197b3.1 for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 16:29:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; t=1681514958; x=1684106958; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=J1qNW2CQjGNm8oJP0D8rVOTuhNNfNlSEX6tJ912JuR4=; b=VZY1kLRwbnaW8hfydbMSEMv6PelwFDiBf9A7D6xLwTVoj4WAHuToWAgKsnza+zzU52 uCu7lo1uHVkQuHAVymXM/wrTLfi7AlVX/rcTUdvcTNioFgniV/FVeUf+I8pSPyEptGdr u3LpgfCJHpPz4hEtI/CdcDanE6z8pLcWLu91/IeVpcSsODZsHU0TsaAum3gdEXYOcN8u vNLHcQS2k61GlBN7VmskWpeW6otVJeJIIhkY83Vcwf+A34UD+aABNrdS3xwFzxGzpgjC 6MqrdK0G3oW3RcX0aGd4a5L8MpxWFMZpF2V/Jsl9t/DWUUoU+fkZ320i7BTxWg0YUBRx 6ARw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1681514958; x=1684106958; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=J1qNW2CQjGNm8oJP0D8rVOTuhNNfNlSEX6tJ912JuR4=; b=eq3KwVLmQPPG0PIcUMB3ygNn21Q/GR9DH3KWLRvCEwMFaU32hLiAKCFRr1Vc+yLDO2 VXsdongD/WAWv+7HSG2vSN4haW6bwcZVMCccL09wamM6ZbwRt0TThMlIQRwJFBtFc1o5 mg3gfPsHVbP15LsahK0eyPCacNKiw+qTlXm7x0tiiUALhdITVogdnUpDwhy06ovzps0M xFGH75ctguiYHFPWThSbR7tg38TUN5T00qfFhGsg1UoP+JGg2Sak5Db8iWsaQ8cbgeSW K3mSQkiv5/c/fZzq4BbozXO9uhgcnzjhPN/cvheiPNYkPiBRMklDi5ldnIbDtjRdIfaS kTYQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9fRQRQJ308HgFWSM+jJNh0SUdoJYcxjVX+CjMBD1I9cXbZ3Zxnf hI+d2eiNjR0p2diSZcy66Teyc0x3qR9DaP4FnwI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350Zfma0zf8fweSBoUGUYqABqn5r8eL7I8aoiiHjoWTJ3HBtlMxzH9/k/Uy2M6WLhyps5287Tgg== X-Received: by 2002:a81:d250:0:b0:54f:8d34:21ab with SMTP id m16-20020a81d250000000b0054f8d3421abmr7729952ywl.44.1681514958091; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 16:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-f181.google.com (mail-yb1-f181.google.com. [209.85.219.181]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c68-20020a811c47000000b00545a08184bdsm1510525ywc.77.2023.04.14.16.29.17 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 14 Apr 2023 16:29:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-f181.google.com with SMTP id u13so20703783ybu.5 for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 16:29:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a25:da89:0:b0:b8f:4f1d:be06 with SMTP id n131-20020a25da89000000b00b8f4f1dbe06mr4954438ybf.11.1681514957178; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 16:29:17 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> <543289768.3317542.1681394425362@mail.yahoo.com> <887947753.4080046.1681511775374@mail.yahoo.com> <1390653293.4101184.1681514419818@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1390653293.4101184.1681514419818@mail.yahoo.com> From: Tomek CEDRO Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2023 01:29:04 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Docker To: Paul Pathiakis Cc: Mario Marietto , "questions@freebsd.org" , infoomatic Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Pyt266VGWz3KQ0 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 1:20=E2=80=AFAM Paul Pathiakis wrote: > Creating their hypervisor, BHYVE, I watched this community discuss it alm= ost ad infinitum before starting the work. With a frequent problems with VirtualBox kmod I have finally switched to bhyve, found marvelously simple "vm" frontend, works like a charm, thank you folks :-) --=20 CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From nobody Fri Apr 14 23:58:18 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Pytgx1gXjz4559W for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 23:58:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mx1.riseup.net", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Pytgv55wXz3HR7 for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 23:58:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=V1aPDNCT; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net Received: from fews02-sea.riseup.net (unknown [10.0.1.112]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Pytgs2SGHzDqD5 for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 23:58:33 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1681516713; bh=2njAndCVVySdmfRBbSD01knBHyYpRPbZy/MsWwTDY1Q=; h=Subject:From:To:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=V1aPDNCTFrzQiR8iA3xMlZZlHcOIf7WaOI1TDJHahVRVm5F3RbnO6wzK6l9d+uKWS tB1CoTRpG29ngqEMLIBDQlyL6M1oGQ/LmoZ0SO2t5qPOfkueffGQMZeJP3se7inJd8 3kItp3lKB8qjS5BmvNi/V7PlsD6o/vUW1pLDbNHc= X-Riseup-User-ID: 9F5ACE49F7211DD5739185BDB29BD73277402DCB14177B1371F9762FB7908F07 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fews02-sea.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Pytgr466hzFsQ3 for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 23:58:32 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: Subject: Re: Docker From: Ralf Mardorf To: questions@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2023 01:58:18 +0200 In-Reply-To: References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> <543289768.3317542.1681394425362@mail.yahoo.com> <887947753.4080046.1681511775374@mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.20 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.999]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Pytgv55wXz3HR7 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Sat, 2023-04-15 at 01:21 +0200, Tomek CEDRO wrote: > On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 12:46=E2=80=AFAM Mario Marietto wrote: > > So,let me understand : docker images aren't compatible with FreeBSD. Im= agine that the FreeBSD jails will be not compatible with Linux. Wow,this is= true interoperability. >=20 > Mario, (Free)BSD is Unix derivative and thus standard compliant, look > at sockets, IPv4, IPv6, Jails, ZFS, etc. >=20 > It was Linux folks who invent things that are only compatible with > Linux and only until new fancy pancy Linux only revelation is > introduced then those solutions are not even Linux compatible anymore. > "Progress by Enforced Changes"^TM. It was Docker that did not take > other OS into consideration at design stage. It was SystemD that did > not take other OS into consideration at design stage, and now lots of > application follow that systemd core dependency making them hardly > portable to any other OS. What about kernel API changes with every > minor release that started around 2.4.11 (I was using Linux 2.0.36 / > ~1998 .. 2.4.12 / ~2007)? Look at DRM mess it introduced to graphics > driver world. How would you call that interoperability / portability / > long term maintenance? Linux by design is self-incompatible. Do you > really want us to to follow that "fashions" with a life span shorter > than a yogurt? >=20 > There are reasons for people avoiding Linux. Hahaha, since I know you from the times you were a Linux user (to be fair this was the VintageInit time ;) and while I'm still mainly a Linux user, but for good reasons lurking on what's happening with FreeBSD... ...yesno... it depends. IOW, no, no, no, you are mistaken in so many ways. However, since around a month I'm migrating from old Intel hardware to latest raptor lake hardware. I seriously doubt that it makes a big difference, if I would prefer=C2=A0FreeBSD over Linux or vice versa, assumi= ng my "main" domain pro audio would allow such a choice. Some Linux distros try, without any success that is worth mentioning, or at best it is a step into the wrong direction, do flirt with the hardware suppliers. In many cases the chances are a little bit better to get hardware support from vendors, when using Linux instead of FreeBSD. In my current situation it doesn't matter, regarding the desktop user issues I experience. Seriously related to your argumentation we all should migrate to ... I'm unable to speak it out ;). What actually is "standard compliant" for? POSIX? Without doubts for Linux there's no standard at all. It is not POSIX and the LSB failed completely. However, apart from server usage, what is any old fashioned standard still good for, if hardware vendors do everything they can do, to make desktop computer usage even for experts very hard, if they are unwilling to use Windows? IOW every OS has got it niche. Regards, Ralf From nobody Sat Apr 15 00:20:53 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PyvBN0qcbz457N6 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 00:21:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yw1-x1136.google.com (mail-yw1-x1136.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1136]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PyvBM65Qdz3wQP for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 00:21:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-yw1-x1136.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-54fb615ac3dso157381777b3.2 for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 17:21:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1681518090; x=1684110090; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=YtkLpllzGw0K3TBLJpgCVL7KTTOXuJnP1z8bWQ7oAMA=; b=qneTo3O9tAEPuBwBLuS1DGl5GBlvYjrgJUP8tf+Lgn+c/gPS9gESz+XObRY4gveYXx b5UtWRJarYOEUHmMcC597cxnpUrwdkMOppHHFd1W/9jTvyLsYIWeBFWohZNbDljIkxwO lFxtx73pEi+/oP8huyJ1ryS87U3b9yXEvR0gxcqHuqlR/SOXjGbBEz/5f1GAHbQTVuRI vNF+B/4YIQzj9MdY2FnzxDUfWPUGvCynvMGfCIG1hKNDswfwwWuQsI/08h0EU9ZbHbj9 bEkeHJFFVuUcpbwh5ZlEwzKgFxp88gs99E2OgCGmppLGbbhSRPEBAVqw4rAE+NAHakqW fjMA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1681518090; x=1684110090; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=YtkLpllzGw0K3TBLJpgCVL7KTTOXuJnP1z8bWQ7oAMA=; b=FobO4rOIi8e20JBMp/MQBgv1DVp/TK7zMnvgwpgGQYPncB2YjCqTinewC+ZH+hJ38k PDF8OKYLKyrFmOzmKBqIMbdZOGsIFM6hTvQGTICTJa40xSTDIPexMwtNrZ3iq5uvx0d3 3yKAtgFQM3UspuN37FwespcTDn97RvujBlvoi5G7z7Jhg9RAdBesvyajNGpl6H2YZZMI ivT2ZipS5U0DmhRGXXxiEUe5WqnZqWV3090Q2gPzarTxB/uCQ9+u1U5v2GFOrArK0HTd HXUq238kvb4JaNZLk11s2YqsJZCO+qUuMqOw+0qrZ5HVw1x8l8qwyuAKW1VcakRl1P5q dtPQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9f10JHCbIDx2UnLm7UM+E4Fv5GQH8Kk3LJpIG/47SEsXH0JjWFx nNF3X1ZlVLGB9bnmHuMZubsU10Y79QU+saxjL7k= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350ZJA9uJ5vgHzthnRFL81NKLSp71jDTNvsS2g4JQj7BOn7Od3e8RwMVHJLl0eBhrr3gPD24PGtBrtcaVq6WPG7E= X-Received: by 2002:a81:4005:0:b0:540:e744:13ae with SMTP id l5-20020a814005000000b00540e74413aemr4988168ywn.3.1681518089963; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 17:21:29 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> <543289768.3317542.1681394425362@mail.yahoo.com> <887947753.4080046.1681511775374@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: From: Mario Marietto Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2023 02:20:53 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Docker To: Tomek CEDRO Cc: Paul Pathiakis , "questions@freebsd.org" , infoomatic Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006f8edf05f954f01d" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PyvBM65Qdz3wQP X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --0000000000006f8edf05f954f01d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't consider what the other people want to do or not. There are a lot of developers that opted for non standard solutions and generally this is not a good idea,in the same way and for the same reasons of the closed source code. Infact I don't see a big difference between the choice to not share source code and the choice to not adopt a non-interoperable technology. The mindset behind these choices have the same matrix. Since they act like this,should we do the same ? Interoperability is a good thing and should be followed regardless of what the other developers want or don't want to do. On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 1:21=E2=80=AFAM Tomek CEDRO wrot= e: > On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 12:46=E2=80=AFAM Mario Marietto wrote: > > So,let me understand : docker images aren't compatible with FreeBSD. > Imagine that the FreeBSD jails will be not compatible with Linux. Wow,thi= s > is true interoperability. > > Mario, (Free)BSD is Unix derivative and thus standard compliant, look > at sockets, IPv4, IPv6, Jails, ZFS, etc. > > It was Linux folks who invent things that are only compatible with > Linux and only until new fancy pancy Linux only revelation is > introduced then those solutions are not even Linux compatible anymore. > "Progress by Enforced Changes"^TM. It was Docker that did not take > other OS into consideration at design stage. It was SystemD that did > not take other OS into consideration at design stage, and now lots of > application follow that systemd core dependency making them hardly > portable to any other OS. What about kernel API changes with every > minor release that started around 2.4.11 (I was using Linux 2.0.36 / > ~1998 .. 2.4.12 / ~2007)? Look at DRM mess it introduced to graphics > driver world. How would you call that interoperability / portability / > long term maintenance? Linux by design is self-incompatible. Do you > really want us to to follow that "fashions" with a life span shorter > than a yogurt? > > There are reasons for people avoiding Linux. > > -- > CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info > --=20 Mario. --0000000000006f8edf05f954f01d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I don't consider what the other people want to do= or not. There are a=20 lot of developers that opted for non standard solutions and generally this = is not a good idea,in the same way and for the same reasons of the closed s= ource code. Infact I don't see a big difference between the choice to n= ot share source code and the choice to not adopt a non-interoperable technology. The mindset behind these cho= ices have the same matrix. Since they=20 act like this,should we do the same ? Interoperability is a good thing=20 and should be followed regardless of what the other developers want or=20 don't want to do.


On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 1:21=E2= =80=AFAM Tomek CEDRO <tomek@cedro.info> wrote:
On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 12:46=E2=80=AFAM Mario Marietto= wrote:
> So,let me understand : docker images aren't compatible with FreeBS= D. Imagine that the FreeBSD jails will be not compatible with Linux. Wow,th= is is true interoperability.

Mario, (Free)BSD is Unix derivative and thus standard compliant, look
at sockets, IPv4, IPv6, Jails, ZFS, etc.

It was Linux folks who invent things that are only compatible with
Linux and only until new fancy pancy Linux only revelation is
introduced then those solutions are not even Linux compatible anymore.
"Progress by Enforced Changes"^TM. It was Docker that did not tak= e
other OS into consideration at design stage. It was SystemD that did
not take other OS into consideration at design stage, and now lots of
application follow that systemd core dependency making them hardly
portable to any other OS. What about kernel API changes with every
minor release that started around 2.4.11 (I was using Linux 2.0.36 /
~1998 .. 2.4.12 / ~2007)?=C2=A0 Look at DRM mess it introduced to graphics<= br> driver world. How would you call that interoperability / portability /
long term maintenance? Linux by design is self-incompatible. Do you
really want us to to follow that "fashions" with a life span shor= ter
than a yogurt?

There are reasons for people avoiding Linux.

--
CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info


--
Mario.
--0000000000006f8edf05f954f01d-- From nobody Sat Apr 15 00:26:09 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PyvJ063q9z457xL for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 00:26:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-yw1-x1131.google.com (mail-yw1-x1131.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1131]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PyvJ042NQz441j for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 00:26:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-yw1-x1131.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-5491fa028adso694014977b3.10 for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 17:26:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; t=1681518383; x=1684110383; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=Z+P3yf0k+0iR6yq0nJoF4tR0XZ5hkx69x1ljpdgzIV4=; b=ilAZeoCzIUDpfWwVknNyUlmfw0ptvKxPR4MbCJQgYfAE8LHj4bAAFzBgagdcPehCtQ QUCNT+1Zi1C9at+pxWgZxAVI9nAhG0sAOw3KQPoVeXsHIbGmBYMANgyjEozjku69OtGY F89qphQWZbUf1gb5w2XUuWSza/htSLz+v987IqNj4u2g+eGLi+W5hAIgRiX7tLgJEPgX 1RGFk7pussUU6SyRUtkcFkJUAiL8wu0DRjGbuKU7zn3SDBb6GxEiizzaAmlCtGHy7B+V heHz8dCHwZQoU73XT3cEfcx/HLCdPbCLXiMEevrd+Wxvw5+uCDCKCmPh7CLLdIhDxcQ1 HGrg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1681518383; x=1684110383; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Z+P3yf0k+0iR6yq0nJoF4tR0XZ5hkx69x1ljpdgzIV4=; b=HsxxmNWrOEJtk94eDRttNjqolNc10+OMpkoIhwO665Q/9DjD3hgZg8gLE2wwMjfUpB vTCLphVwSMG7uvicjd8rr5Efk9KIjGQm+zPu1Ibl+YxQjG4EMAuMB3y3KSi++ArZRc/s rjL05XD1+6khG5KM0ys+MuF0FaMje06Ntu9dwaMkmpSgBPChpvCYvFMsixeks+sNhEFU Cml/BLGXbotRgg2aE9yPHb5imdDA6NJkInzhqP2lqtwvi7dFgVQsTu7DDRJrIR8Fr/XP BvwwhfVVp0vbF3UZT05q0rc6UlzvalU5s9vphE0GClkDEFEAJqb4PA/cbw/LwNh5cOIX GXWg== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9d9OhS4ESoMdcvrThE1GIJa34+4Yve7I3/fiHCymc15UiAJeecL IZDxWDBYRk8JtsUFcE9Ezh6y9ke/W8iCBmmNbU4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350YP9r0T+ML4lI7EWsCtITg7YsSnHVlts3IlqvSDET4D9jIFdSH5JGp2smOOFv2PG8sgThQ5ZA== X-Received: by 2002:a81:6c52:0:b0:54c:11e2:d32 with SMTP id h79-20020a816c52000000b0054c11e20d32mr7035145ywc.27.1681518382835; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 17:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-f178.google.com (mail-yb1-f178.google.com. [209.85.219.178]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 68-20020a810b47000000b00545a0818495sm1555436ywl.37.2023.04.14.17.26.22 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 14 Apr 2023 17:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-f178.google.com with SMTP id by8so4414329ybb.9 for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 17:26:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a25:da89:0:b0:b8f:4f1d:be06 with SMTP id n131-20020a25da89000000b00b8f4f1dbe06mr5033262ybf.11.1681518381950; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 17:26:21 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> <543289768.3317542.1681394425362@mail.yahoo.com> <887947753.4080046.1681511775374@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: From: Tomek CEDRO Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2023 02:26:09 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Docker To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PyvJ042NQz441j X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 1:58=E2=80=AFAM Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Sat, 2023-04-15 at 01:21 +0200, Tomek CEDRO wrote: > > (..) > > There are reasons for people avoiding Linux. > > since I know you from the times you were a Linux user (to be fair this > was the VintageInit time ;) and while I'm still mainly a Linux user, but > for good reasons lurking on what's happening with FreeBSD... > ...yesno... > it depends. > (..) > What actually is "standard compliant" for? POSIX? Without doubts for > Linux there's no standard at all. It is not POSIX and the LSB failed > completely. However, apart from server usage, what is any old fashioned > standard still good for, if hardware vendors do everything they can do, > to make desktop computer usage even for experts very hard, if they are > unwilling to use Windows? Yeah, "apples and oranges", we had that discussion so many times before.. VintageInit seems 8-bit now with 128 bytes of RAM and 8 CPU registers :D In a perfect world vendors would provide the Open-Source drivers by default on a permissible non-viral license so anyone could use them on their beloved OS. We could count many BigTech companies that actually prevents that. Maybe that day will come before 32 bits overflow the timestamp :-) Have a good day Ralf :-) -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From nobody Sat Apr 15 00:36:50 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PyvXN2gQTz458Wj for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 00:37:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-yw1-x1129.google.com (mail-yw1-x1129.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1129]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PyvXL26pVz4PZY for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 00:37:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b="ZOcVoS/d"; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::1129) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info; dmarc=none Received: by mail-yw1-x1129.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-54fbee98814so122435897b3.8 for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 17:37:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; t=1681519023; x=1684111023; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=BN7r+VAH3tqFyywFbrjBnBZZx4GHwAjSa8dLns1DDRM=; b=ZOcVoS/dNRcKBsOA3XeIMo1mC4MWrV0o67G1z+hg5HO7/EtdHMOYS/HrUY2BKG6Kra iIfNnVBOYhCq2w3jvdMXBrG1+G75oDt2lVa1okf3GnsbxTvljAo/EtQ+J9OfcOvY9OPr FqFvjEkILe/sIrE2Nd09uEIk6eBODBXml1EBXaJtzamKp57grIiPy8dTe/C5H67QAuFP F2VYzcj9IKq4XNBFs4AC7bubE4CFiE43fbyHxMPyIAUEDdRlRvnNkP75r0sgD0LEgn3/ quFJzBRcaYBALHAIXDf7edHMDbpFrBI9S0onNYeHIVQziNlsabMmVT9zEDdDMGd5C8Oc RQEw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1681519023; x=1684111023; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=BN7r+VAH3tqFyywFbrjBnBZZx4GHwAjSa8dLns1DDRM=; b=PfjlmP+iBHP59aJYT5OJ9ogT3CEtlNyDCFq1w/uCSa6+Qyae8nHOIKvF/HzJqS4BkS x3hu4rAvnAHlLjOe6vJ6Q9mX8YfzdSzxOWeDJhN8DFLN5eCxsrB/iAacT5Rokfqu8GK7 cGgJLupK0E8dcZ6f+bNmc6iuEZ1He+dpq4OxtuWt3Kfb9wRCA1JZpqAwSgsWJXoXdYWc 1sk88znSyjLV3rA6CP5qUQazE7vB55agK5U9TfgJ+2DLPshDCV+FW2Xduwd097cgxEpL 5B+1/7TGaSVL2hz6EOa5ESMh6b0ofT3uoofxtDpmAVaSkWGzKAmVaKGJlh8Q2RyliHia Prow== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9e47XzRFgIam8RGGnocONDtQ7M/74yuXkP3ptZtdyZl+C4mcy87 YgaYdeZql2JcW3l00OF+05Z4xFs+GG2FKTK22Tw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350ar9E8KrTEKUJxNqV3WiylgdtTwU3GAwSQw2dsVDuuBr6MK09VI9Sdl9lWySVfyAFu69s7wJQ== X-Received: by 2002:a81:8745:0:b0:541:826c:20fd with SMTP id x66-20020a818745000000b00541826c20fdmr7413759ywf.13.1681519023222; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 17:37:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw1-f174.google.com (mail-yw1-f174.google.com. [209.85.128.174]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 66-20020a810645000000b0054f6f65f258sm1544724ywg.16.2023.04.14.17.37.02 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 14 Apr 2023 17:37:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw1-f174.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-54fa9da5e5bso170524537b3.1 for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 17:37:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a81:9f06:0:b0:533:9185:fc2c with SMTP id s6-20020a819f06000000b005339185fc2cmr4931423ywn.7.1681519022445; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 17:37:02 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> <543289768.3317542.1681394425362@mail.yahoo.com> <887947753.4080046.1681511775374@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: From: Tomek CEDRO Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2023 02:36:50 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Docker To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.30 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.997]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::1129:from]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PyvXL26pVz4PZY X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N Anyways, its Friday evening / night, we slept around 3..6 hours as usual, we are clicking our keyboards right now, creating things that we always dreamed of, who cares what OS do we use, humans think of us all exactly the same way :-) :-) -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From nobody Sat Apr 15 03:53:05 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PyztZ2890z45R2j for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 03:53:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@dreamchaser.org) Received: from nightmare.dreamchaser.org (ns.dreamchaser.org [66.109.141.57]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "discoveriesinwood.com", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PyztX3nz9z4WHw for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 03:53:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@dreamchaser.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@dreamchaser.org designates 66.109.141.57 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@dreamchaser.org; dmarc=none Received: from [192.168.151.122] (breakaway [192.168.151.122]) by nightmare.dreamchaser.org (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTP id 33F3r5ee034854 for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 21:53:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from freebsd@dreamchaser.org) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2023 20:53:05 -0700 List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.7.0 Content-Language: en-US To: FreeBSD Mailing List Reply-To: freebsd@dreamchaser.org From: Gary Aitken Subject: frequent disk error, need guidance Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.4 (nightmare.dreamchaser.org [192.168.151.101]); Fri, 14 Apr 2023 21:53:05 -0600 (MDT) X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.30 / 15.00]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.70)[0.700]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.64)[0.643]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.26)[0.257]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[dreamchaser.org]; ASN(0.00)[asn:21947, ipnet:66.109.128.0/19, country:US]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@dreamchaser.org]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PyztX3nz9z4WHw X-Spamd-Bar: + X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N I'm seeing a boatload of the same error: (ada0:ata2:0:0:0): READ_DMA. ACB: c8 00 e2 c7 73 41 00 00 00 00 40 00 (ada0:ata2:0:0:0): CAM status: ATA Status Error (ada0:ata2:0:0:0): ATA status: 51 (DRDY SERV ERR), error: 40 (UNC ) (ada0:ata2:0:0:0): RES: 51 40 e7 c7 73 01 01 00 00 00 00 (ada0:ata2:0:0:0): Retrying command, 3 more tries remain repeated, with occasional: g_vfs_done():ada0p2[READ(offset=12474351616, length=32768)]error = 5 # smartctl --info /dev/da0 Model Family: Seagate Barracuda 7200.9 Device Model: ST3808110AS Serial Number: 4LR1HW1E Firmware Version: 3.ADH User Capacity: 80,000,000,000 bytes [80.0 GB] Sector Size: 512 bytes logical/physical Device is: In smartctl database 7.3/5319 ATA Version is: ATA/ATAPI-7 (minor revision not indicated) Local Time is: Fri Apr 14 09:43:01 2023 MDT SMART support is: Available - device has SMART capability. SMART support is: Enabled # smartctl --health /dev/da0 SMART overall-health self-assessment test result: PASSED # smartctl --test=long /dev/ada0 # smartctl --log=selftest /dev/ada0 Num Test_Description Remaining LBA_of_1st_error Status LifeTime(hours) # 1 Extended offline Completed: read failure 90% 7482 24365031 # 2 Short offline Completed: read failure 90% 7482 24365031 # 3 Short offline Completed: read failure 90% 7482 24365031 # 4 Short offline Completed without error 00% 0 - So I presume a bad block/sector on the disk. I had high hopes this article: https://www.freebsddiary.org/smart-fixing-bad-sector.php would show the way, but it seems to quit right at the good stuff. Can it be remapped, and if so, pointers to how? Thanks, Gary From nobody Sat Apr 15 03:57:01 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PyzzG66cnz45R6p for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 03:57:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pprocacci@gmail.com) Received: from mail-oi1-x229.google.com (mail-oi1-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::229]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PyzzG3TC1z4dF6 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 03:57:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pprocacci@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-oi1-x229.google.com with SMTP id p133so3635790oih.2 for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 20:57:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1681531033; x=1684123033; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=nWyw7Mv0rYIbeVQXf+py0p1hQZzqrTULM+DraFmDYWE=; b=EHyBGL5uNym1WXY0NSnJgroDRroGtJr2ax5AxjXvbWdESoPM42Va6n56A/lSfdKj6X cSTsqk6A2Zvi5HgNzsl1uwZAOUNDzaT+Q42mIXuWPZd15rM9SMUrHs/fjLjrq/w2seHL J55p6OO8XoQZUSC2/YuhiaVxv3OwfXTBLWDbqJtPrK8BiXINzsdSj6D+Y4d4HEjkfut6 R/3YXtpSPmwXpvdaTpkI0ku28p1YeSwYTk/UnnASU6HXIBtKoxlVWcBLwTYu3UkNlDWo SUGy5Jf0pWPjH81Bj8t3AvCPr4I9yR6yQv1HdrNgQavZaRGN8cUnZqO0/aZF/1y64pUi zlyw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1681531033; x=1684123033; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=nWyw7Mv0rYIbeVQXf+py0p1hQZzqrTULM+DraFmDYWE=; b=DVl7oQBMm9vWIb+fBb1txJgNoVO1f0SrTOlUTtf+1uQ3luKekHhKH5WHSAFYPp2NEZ b60z8efoS2T7x+RugcMLuGTDdB4Ielqe3IKWUZaJQzFxwgddADrVjZsSrqCgaoWWwEoh N4wJbI/okUSjBRPtCJE+DmQmNgDxxUx6T51aFQNqRMZlnaIpoIDFzfCzXTVIXVkMpnhC fFIvsAo4D3UdaOuEWp6KCKlF0aaKgnFyTKGsJWm6O9HwayxGKwshC5fqE7FRZFkvnI2a dZcE35lwoC018ILkYsvDpkiXrRtf17u2I1/mA+1F7f9bYtfKg52NT2/cCn2onNIdRhdE 7I8w== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9eINnsbdIQ4aBOtZNtvzjJXS8uAsjFFalwdTyjEbb0Ve042/zlv Wzk6ciFD5ChhoRIFQlIsmIz+902xiU9RWKoHJTUI5Og+NA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350ZZE2eE0C5u0rpJarPSz1BHvzjGvluYKir59j4C0NAImV6pGPfrlRICYGk8p+c1ohpQE8Gh3zZqgtQ1f955fJM= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:3a96:b0:38b:2521:7b08 with SMTP id fb22-20020a0568083a9600b0038b25217b08mr1624621oib.6.1681531033448; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 20:57:13 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Paul Procacci Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2023 23:57:01 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: frequent disk error, need guidance To: freebsd@dreamchaser.org Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ed775005f957f354" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PyzzG3TC1z4dF6 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --000000000000ed775005f957f354 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Apr 14, 2023 at 11:54=E2=80=AFPM Gary Aitken wrote: > I'm seeing a boatload of the same error: > (ada0:ata2:0:0:0): READ_DMA. ACB: c8 00 e2 c7 73 41 00 00 00 00 40 00 > (ada0:ata2:0:0:0): CAM status: ATA Status Error > (ada0:ata2:0:0:0): ATA status: 51 (DRDY SERV ERR), error: 40 (UNC ) > (ada0:ata2:0:0:0): RES: 51 40 e7 c7 73 01 01 00 00 00 00 > (ada0:ata2:0:0:0): Retrying command, 3 more tries remain > repeated, with occasional: > g_vfs_done():ada0p2[READ(offset=3D12474351616, length=3D32768)]error = =3D 5 > > # smartctl --info /dev/da0 > Model Family: Seagate Barracuda 7200.9 > Device Model: ST3808110AS > Serial Number: 4LR1HW1E > Firmware Version: 3.ADH > User Capacity: 80,000,000,000 bytes [80.0 GB] > Sector Size: 512 bytes logical/physical > Device is: In smartctl database 7.3/5319 > ATA Version is: ATA/ATAPI-7 (minor revision not indicated) > Local Time is: Fri Apr 14 09:43:01 2023 MDT > SMART support is: Available - device has SMART capability. > SMART support is: Enabled > # smartctl --health /dev/da0 > SMART overall-health self-assessment test result: PASSED > > # smartctl --test=3Dlong /dev/ada0 > # smartctl --log=3Dselftest /dev/ada0 > Num Test_Description Remaining LBA_of_1st_erro= r > Status LifeTime(hours) > > # 1 Extended offline Completed: read failure 90% 7482 24365031 > # 2 Short offline Completed: read failure 90% 7482 24365031 > # 3 Short offline Completed: read failure 90% 7482 24365031 > # 4 Short offline Completed without error 00% 0 - > > So I presume a bad block/sector on the disk. > I had high hopes this article: > https://www.freebsddiary.org/smart-fixing-bad-sector.php > would show the way, but it seems to quit right at the good stuff. > > Can it be remapped, and if so, pointers to how? > > Thanks, > > Gary > > That is a hardware error. UNC means uncorrectable data error. Either you have a cable going bad or that drive is failing. Maybe it's just intermittent at this stage, but I'd look at trying a new cable/replacing that drive as the very first step. ~Paul --=20 __________________ :(){ :|:& };: --000000000000ed775005f957f354 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Apr 14, 2023 at 11:54=E2=80= =AFPM Gary Aitken <freebsd@dr= eamchaser.org> wrote:
I'm seeing a boatload of the same error:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(ada0:ata2:0:0:0): READ_DMA. ACB: c8 00 e2 c7 73 41 00 00 00 0= 0 40 00
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(ada0:ata2:0:0:0): CAM status: ATA Status Error
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(ada0:ata2:0:0:0): ATA status: 51 (DRDY SERV ERR), error: 40 (= UNC )
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(ada0:ata2:0:0:0): RES: 51 40 e7 c7 73 01 01 00 00 00 00
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(ada0:ata2:0:0:0): Retrying command, 3 more tries remain
repeated, with occasional:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0g_vfs_done():ada0p2[READ(offset=3D12474351616, length=3D32768)= ]error =3D 5

# smartctl --info /dev/da0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Model Family:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Seagate Barracuda 7200.9
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Device Model:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ST3808110AS
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Serial Number:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 4LR1HW1E
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Firmware Version: 3.ADH
=C2=A0 =C2=A0User Capacity:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 80,000,000,000 bytes [80.0 GB]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Sector Size:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 512 bytes logical/physical =C2=A0 =C2=A0Device is:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 In smartctl database 7.3= /5319
=C2=A0 =C2=A0ATA Version is:=C2=A0 =C2=A0ATA/ATAPI-7 (minor revision not in= dicated)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Local Time is:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Fri Apr 14 09:43:01 2023 MDT
=C2=A0 =C2=A0SMART support is: Available - device has SMART capability.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0SMART support is: Enabled
# smartctl --health /dev/da0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0SMART overall-health self-assessment test result: PASSED

# smartctl --test=3Dlong /dev/ada0
# smartctl --log=3Dselftest /dev/ada0
Num=C2=A0 Test_Description=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Remaining=C2=A0 LBA_of_1st_error<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Status=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 LifeTime(hours)

# 1=C2=A0 Extended offline=C2=A0 Completed: read failure=C2=A0 90%=C2=A0 74= 82=C2=A0 24365031
# 2=C2=A0 Short offline=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Completed: read failure=C2=A0 90= %=C2=A0 7482=C2=A0 24365031
# 3=C2=A0 Short offline=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Completed: read failure=C2=A0 90= %=C2=A0 7482=C2=A0 24365031
# 4=C2=A0 Short offline=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Completed without error=C2=A0 00= %=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A00=C2=A0 -

So I presume a bad block/sector on the disk.
I had high hopes this article:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.freebsddiary.org/sm= art-fixing-bad-sector.php
would show the way, but it seems to quit right at the good stuff.

Can it be remapped, and if so, pointers to how?

Thanks,

Gary


=09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09
=09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09
That is a hardware error. UNC means=20 uncorrectable data error. Either you have a cable going bad or that=20 drive is failing.
Maybe it's just=20 intermittent at this stage, but I'd look at trying a new cable/replacin= g that drive as the very first step.
=09
=C2=A0
=09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09
=09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09
~Paul

-= -
__________________<= br>
:(){ :|:& };:
--000000000000ed775005f957f354-- From nobody Sat Apr 15 05:33:15 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Pz26L2Y3zz45Zy9 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 05:33:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.74]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "Telekom Security ServerID OV Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Pz26K1Crbz3k3G for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 05:33:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.5.230.5]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue106 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1N8XDT-1qRaCj0vT7-014VrL; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 07:33:16 +0200 Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2023 07:33:15 +0200 From: Polytropon To: freebsd@dreamchaser.org Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List Subject: Re: frequent disk error, need guidance Message-Id: <20230415073315.7adfdddd.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:ppGodkiTCVXIfUb9gSPYkiUzf74cDXMP9FRO3z14mA5YPvka39V WWI/uI6f/LHEOFwanyhDZRjUpZjkX24SEpk0oo+AoR5Q4NmW7vweD8cmNiCSOIk4V4KIIVX 6hkAUREEXDUhzo38tPAE2JJLeiL4+7XZyWYabOGpHYtN8Z87RrmjeIC+5t9l59USszXN0O9 X8W8n//VX+3hPRyfQA4fA== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:cJ/7tw15MKg=;ZjhzLWu6X67XNZkKRSJwoiIDH+/ +ZpWx+g71t8idJEn81OLizAc+sU0bDqt0IEbJEEj6AL+7Vy7jSoicr0aKdXqAalhhg7GGNq3b Z2eK2mP9Qc04C0NpOZbnqdOCjoMg4e2bh2mjVg2stgrV3EnaLkSirSxLo6Dfk67do+0Hpbn3R 9eD3SH3Fsw1yowaoTCiEfzvZkW3Wc9JNS0uZzVWF7Pl6DDiL73VogKkYG5jHJljpotEi0XSMO 4aFSzdEDei2Vxlcm+/XbEwVaJQNzkHHaQAWUlWM7PqJYMcyoHWwJbalDpr8ixO4TL6wFftNjk 0XsvTdNwzer2LGoj2GpTo4tk9bXwZfmsbtj6nOglibPBsVKOgqyhk4sFkyq3JtAoyz88SIQDI oRviDR+gO5VH6yYd3y/7Ufg52qPuhXAj/VQMgBuVCpjUe6SnOh/V4Pf31bES6BrvzNew/kj2o lrtV2CzgRv8oIa0oTVtY4hTxr4JhS1hdWTr7aRRkbkzrv+/T/8okT8t6e7+LNRvs4vH7dEpPX 0NEEcezApptaKmVCD+nLk7BuuegvQ3Yah8QU2JoR+/aFzSmWpPjrF0/PeS1mp7cFL25zRDQqj W+U8SvNu02Y1z7K9l+F4KshqF+1fJqP6q6Iqr6TkXnQKGrKFUsBORsjGxxj2mfIIRKyKnwLrs O2CRfewK8XC/aWuARQdk0nB2/A0Vie4tSioF6m9aug== X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Pz26K1Crbz3k3G X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:217.72.192.0/20, country:DE] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 20:53:05 -0700, Gary Aitken wrote: > I'm seeing a boatload of the same error: > (ada0:ata2:0:0:0): READ_DMA. ACB: c8 00 e2 c7 73 41 00 00 00 00 40 00 > (ada0:ata2:0:0:0): CAM status: ATA Status Error > (ada0:ata2:0:0:0): ATA status: 51 (DRDY SERV ERR), error: 40 (UNC ) > (ada0:ata2:0:0:0): RES: 51 40 e7 c7 73 01 01 00 00 00 00 > (ada0:ata2:0:0:0): Retrying command, 3 more tries remain > repeated, with occasional: > g_vfs_done():ada0p2[READ(offset=12474351616, length=32768)]error = 5 > > # smartctl --info /dev/da0 > Model Family: Seagate Barracuda 7200.9 > Device Model: ST3808110AS > Serial Number: 4LR1HW1E > Firmware Version: 3.ADH > User Capacity: 80,000,000,000 bytes [80.0 GB] > Sector Size: 512 bytes logical/physical > Device is: In smartctl database 7.3/5319 > ATA Version is: ATA/ATAPI-7 (minor revision not indicated) > Local Time is: Fri Apr 14 09:43:01 2023 MDT > SMART support is: Available - device has SMART capability. > SMART support is: Enabled > # smartctl --health /dev/da0 > SMART overall-health self-assessment test result: PASSED > > # smartctl --test=long /dev/ada0 > # smartctl --log=selftest /dev/ada0 > Num Test_Description Remaining LBA_of_1st_error > Status LifeTime(hours) > > # 1 Extended offline Completed: read failure 90% 7482 24365031 > # 2 Short offline Completed: read failure 90% 7482 24365031 > # 3 Short offline Completed: read failure 90% 7482 24365031 > # 4 Short offline Completed without error 00% 0 - > > So I presume a bad block/sector on the disk. Probably too many bad blocks. The disks's firmware will remap defective blocks to spare ones, and as soon as you receive errors on OS level, it ran out of spare blocks. This means it is not the beginning of a problem, but the problem now is significant, and the disk probably has arrived its end of life. There is another option: Check all cables. Power to be sure, but data is most important. In worst case, try replacing the data cable. Check that it sits as inteded on both sides. Yes - sometimes it is that simple. ;-) > I had high hopes this article: > https://www.freebsddiary.org/smart-fixing-bad-sector.php > would show the way, but it seems to quit right at the good stuff. > > Can it be remapped, and if so, pointers to how? As I said, the disk will do that by itself, internally. However, you _can_ use the "badblocks" utility for diagnostics, along with "smartctl" (SMARTmon tools). On OS level, you cannot really fix hardware problems though. Anyway: Make sure to backup your data and prepare to replace the disk, it's probably the safest thing to do (after you've ruled out bad cabling, that is). -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From nobody Sat Apr 15 05:44:00 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Pz2Lj3tnYz45c4Y for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 05:44:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) Received: from soth.netfence.it (mailserver.netfence.it [78.134.96.152]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mailserver.netfence.it", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Pz2Lj0TB8z41VC for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 05:44:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from [10.1.2.18] (mailserver.netfence.it [78.134.96.152]) (authenticated bits=0) by soth.netfence.it (8.17.1/8.17.1) with ESMTPSA id 33F5i080098897 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Sat, 15 Apr 2023 07:44:01 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=netfence.it; s=202304; t=1681537443; bh=gXuzCWzQH1kwG15uSxm78dYnrOKjBTzbhgrBjtlVeXg=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=FxOD4JqAFOCX3K90bZxnr6gLcuYxk0e62dUy+TvO41c4PbwzITroSNc6WOSqz0TEU ETYOKfQGtLY3wBgJ1AFk7kbr4ihzi3gsuS1U750ceS50HiG5rXWdOlG+YTI2sAB+VQ 6csJMB7jbWJaz8q2zW6xFveFCk46u6MxffoK6fOw= X-Authentication-Warning: soth.netfence.it: Host mailserver.netfence.it [78.134.96.152] claimed to be [10.1.2.18] Message-ID: <8e726d9f-9214-bae8-756d-35529aad88e7@netfence.it> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2023 07:44:00 +0200 List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.10.0 Subject: Re: frequent disk error, need guidance Content-Language: en-US To: questions@freebsd.org, freebsd@dreamchaser.org References: From: Andrea Venturoli In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.86 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Pz2Lj0TB8z41VC X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:35612, ipnet:78.134.0.0/17, country:IT] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On 4/15/23 05:53, Gary Aitken wrote: Hello. > I had high hopes this article: >   https://www.freebsddiary.org/smart-fixing-bad-sector.php In the past I tried that too... I guess its chances of success depend a lot on the underlying hardware. > Can it be remapped, and if so, pointers to how? Each vendor provides its own utilities for this. You can probably find almost all of them on UBCD (https://www.ultimatebootcd.com), provided your system can boot in BIOS/CSM mode. However you'll have to boot into it, so your system can't run while you do this (and it will probably take hours). SeaTools will either remap the bad blocks or tell you if the disk is so bad it can't be fixed. In the former case, don't blindly trust it: it might effectively correct any existing damage, but further bad blocks may appear soon, so keep an eye on it. bye av. From nobody Sat Apr 15 05:51:39 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Pz2Wf66ZBz45cxP for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 05:51:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from holgerdanske.com (holgerdanske.com [184.105.128.27]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "holgerdanske.com", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Pz2Wd6Ry0z4FQM for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 05:51:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=holgerdanske.com header.s=nov-20210719-112354 header.b=AD2zo+gG; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpchrist@holgerdanske.com designates 184.105.128.27 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dpchrist@holgerdanske.com; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=holgerdanske.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=holgerdanske.com; s=nov-20210719-112354; t=1681537908; bh=3p3HipFuyRRDwB9SvDlRfUvwAUPXwaNaIsBJDiFCJHM=; h=Received:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:User-Agent:Subject: Content-Language:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=AD2zo+gG7y/h+RyJuLBD3yB/SXF9SHccnuGi+/p3Fhx+skimU8WNhSrJo5ksTfIeX wKl+AdYUGbVVn0pvEMN/HYS5bDtplnWK+xyFX9dFZlAxY3nfhBhQ/TMkZcpkfbDzif 9Cgvh3sz9PMRcdKW6hUULybn+Lt2WmrMIprTJz1/1u95cHcNKwG46FgCLDGkrL0qDL 7+ZNTRHNw6sNzzx76noODVvAC1HXtGirMnQ0nDEyLtQuNENF3wCYLIiBQOS3hufOaD NTtZM9BSHuPz3947AmRA+so3dJhpzz36kGJNpCG9hx7SKnFKhO3Z6vvwVgRJpvcvr8 y9zFlIWAqiYk/19AGhenckSyLiF4J0Gj5S35QgoGGhhxk1rd0DLgNLUTwRU8YMls/a qq9X2KeFAyKExw+dMHECYdHWtfhdccfqoORDoIrF2h//zK1Fm6rneaTXIGdgANOPsT l92STvQjf0BgoHqqTuuTqBd/Rh8MYHNeQJ4S91hA7IYVlkCYh7w6M8DuuLc9mfl2OM cpSC0UKhiBU3Z5tY+QZW3Gwf1VEnd3u/Kf5cRnXM/decqxvmzO6CFA6yzpBB6zY/XZ w7adn9NNoSI55F2JE8qrsTy30iDEx3d5/VrV1/US3ZltKOuAZ4ybtiOSf5BhLX6Ay1 F2hrM2or/xjSWW5pHXgCylhU= Received: from 99.100.19.101 (99-100-19-101.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net [99.100.19.101]) by holgerdanske.com with ESMTPSA (TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:TLSv1.3:Kx=any:Au=any:Enc=AESGCM(128):Mac=AEAD) (SMTP-AUTH username dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, mechanism PLAIN) for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2023 22:51:48 -0700 Message-ID: <2367efa5-85f0-25a6-4845-f4ff5ba15fa8@holgerdanske.com> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2023 22:51:39 -0700 List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.9.0 Subject: Re: frequent disk error, need guidance Content-Language: en-US To: questions@freebsd.org References: From: David Christensen In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.99 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.991]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[holgerdanske.com,none]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[holgerdanske.com:s=nov-20210719-112354]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[holgerdanske.com:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:184.104.0.0/15, country:US]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Pz2Wd6Ry0z4FQM X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On 4/14/23 20:57, Paul Procacci wrote: > On Fri, Apr 14, 2023 at 11:54 PM Gary Aitken > wrote: > >> I'm seeing a boatload of the same error: >> (ada0:ata2:0:0:0): READ_DMA. ACB: c8 00 e2 c7 73 41 00 00 00 00 40 00 >> (ada0:ata2:0:0:0): CAM status: ATA Status Error >> (ada0:ata2:0:0:0): ATA status: 51 (DRDY SERV ERR), error: 40 (UNC ) >> (ada0:ata2:0:0:0): RES: 51 40 e7 c7 73 01 01 00 00 00 00 >> (ada0:ata2:0:0:0): Retrying command, 3 more tries remain >> repeated, with occasional: >> g_vfs_done():ada0p2[READ(offset=12474351616, length=32768)]error = 5 >> >> # smartctl --info /dev/da0 >> Model Family: Seagate Barracuda 7200.9 >> Device Model: ST3808110AS >> Serial Number: 4LR1HW1E >> Firmware Version: 3.ADH >> User Capacity: 80,000,000,000 bytes [80.0 GB] >> Sector Size: 512 bytes logical/physical >> Device is: In smartctl database 7.3/5319 >> ATA Version is: ATA/ATAPI-7 (minor revision not indicated) >> Local Time is: Fri Apr 14 09:43:01 2023 MDT >> SMART support is: Available - device has SMART capability. >> SMART support is: Enabled >> # smartctl --health /dev/da0 >> SMART overall-health self-assessment test result: PASSED >> >> # smartctl --test=long /dev/ada0 >> # smartctl --log=selftest /dev/ada0 >> Num Test_Description Remaining LBA_of_1st_error >> Status LifeTime(hours) >> >> # 1 Extended offline Completed: read failure 90% 7482 24365031 >> # 2 Short offline Completed: read failure 90% 7482 24365031 >> # 3 Short offline Completed: read failure 90% 7482 24365031 >> # 4 Short offline Completed without error 00% 0 - >> >> So I presume a bad block/sector on the disk. >> I had high hopes this article: >> https://www.freebsddiary.org/smart-fixing-bad-sector.php >> would show the way, but it seems to quit right at the good stuff. >> >> Can it be remapped, and if so, pointers to how? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Gary >> >> > That is a hardware error. UNC means uncorrectable data error. Either you > have a cable going bad or that drive is failing. > Maybe it's just intermittent at this stage, but I'd look at trying a new > cable/replacing that drive as the very first step. > > ~Paul > Do you need the data on the drive? The combination of DMA errors and a passing SMART test indicate a bad connection between the motherboard and the HDD. What is between the motherboard and the HDD? If there is a SATA cable involved, I would try replacing the cable with a brand-new SATA 6 Gbps cable with locking connectors. If the problems persist, I would try another SATA port. (You may have to deal with boot issues if you switch ports and there are other drives.) Seagate offers a diagnostic tool called "SeaTools". I prefer the bootable versions. You may need a Windows computer to create bootable media: https://www.seagate.com/support/downloads/seatools/ SeaTools can test, zero, and/or reset drives. Successful use of SeaTools might give you some more life out of the drive. That said, WikiPedia indicates the Barraduce 7200.9 series were introduced in 2005. For less than $20 you can get a good used SSD that is newer, larger, quicker (latency), and faster (throughput). David From nobody Sat Apr 15 07:10:52 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Pz4HR1p5Wz44mJ7 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 07:11:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yw1-x112f.google.com (mail-yw1-x112f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::112f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Pz4HQ3vvZz4CSJ for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 07:11:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-yw1-x112f.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-54c0c86a436so494217777b3.6 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 00:11:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1681542689; x=1684134689; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=FkV4bJGbkYvwcJONpnWBLF8BPMF9+tWRTmYeefX45yQ=; b=SbFZgosDR3Ky/1auW0Eet9C9ReNaM+AzrePRPLmXlW+GmUIQoVCqiZbbpjbpPTRFjs xJ63Kl3fUMDpU/03K5gfh+krcOJOhDsdo7It7dtgELzzEsHUXHvgbhMN2eWqVUplHNmj 0iDMR0u+5BfaeJd4xy70M6deV0MLhPNtUikPOoivu3IPaSMXxo02TmNHhCECLnkg2BFB qHgfLTBkzVppmOH2LNaxXQsDBrq6Y1KvEv2LBQ+I5/Qw3ELlWW1Oac7yUCJo71eTySLt 94K/ABh6Ji29WPB5aLe0CtyVXND+uKSZ06cHba4LrjlPP+UmHb+nAGZaUviBoIKItRvd ipVQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1681542689; x=1684134689; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=FkV4bJGbkYvwcJONpnWBLF8BPMF9+tWRTmYeefX45yQ=; b=Paiha8WFhGLlMqkcrLyHvoURQhAyMSp0dsB9m75MO7kNi5VcSF+tjxLNOGeAz7fE7W PHFdC3wyokGNpKts2eL1RytK+wYDr4P05duMS+ARa0xTrtQE/+3X0shw0pjrQ0XN2SLg NGlCT9GAvvjJRm5icnx2Bavxk1VlGe4CzJYt9BLztANM2JWQ73EWz98aHqc5fuYZUPon 1C3bk1r6UhEt7nzKLjcO2v0QEGckdCYkoNC8/H4D87Om/1cqwAHfHb+1ZLYYqxQsFZNO sjvmfISIFE95I9+hQtpn7PCFvCL2HlgrszbGw/V4H07gpyIm/8+25j6nhjG9hwv42Mzw CLeA== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9e1Y5uFjtMVjZFOqkDsIrc/4uZOoE/1DcsTi1PU/iQ1Gp7MfRvE EcsqanGH1nd5iDOqeP8h5IdDn6sH8sb9n7QBvDlNueALMe8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350amt83HXod1Y7fGs/1y5lUu9DLLtjZWsOFDPQufkSF0lDpFGJ2c9TQNKC90qhOdunHzRP+tU2LQN7G6Dg0hUQ8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:d91:b0:54f:e88d:79ba with SMTP id da17-20020a05690c0d9100b0054fe88d79bamr3397580ywb.5.1681542689567; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 00:11:29 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> <543289768.3317542.1681394425362@mail.yahoo.com> <887947753.4080046.1681511775374@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: From: Mario Marietto Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2023 09:10:52 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Docker To: Tomek CEDRO Cc: Ralf Mardorf , questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000afb8a505f95aaa24" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Pz4HQ3vvZz4CSJ X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --000000000000afb8a505f95aaa24 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is only one thing which all men think exactly the same. On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 2:37=E2=80=AFAM Tomek CEDRO wrot= e: > Anyways, its Friday evening / night, we slept around 3..6 hours as > usual, we are clicking our keyboards right now, creating things that > we always dreamed of, who cares what OS do we use, humans think of us > all exactly the same way :-) :-) > > -- > CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info > > --=20 Mario. --000000000000afb8a505f95aaa24 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There is only one thing which all men think exactly the sa= me.

On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 2:37=E2=80=AFAM Tomek CEDRO <tomek@cedro.info> wrote:
Anyways, its Friday evening / night= , we slept around 3..6 hours as
usual, we are clicking our keyboards right now, creating things that
we always dreamed of, who cares what OS do we use, humans think of us
all exactly the same way :-) :-)

--
CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info



--
Mario.
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Sat, 15 Apr 2023 05:14:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.9.0-alpha0-334-g8c072af647-fm-20230330.001-g8c072af6 List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <1d0a7ed1-9330-49df-9b66-9ee4387de511@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <20230412155252.5e38ea4728bd52dc798852fc@sohara.org> References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> <20230412155252.5e38ea4728bd52dc798852fc@sohara.org> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2023 02:13:53 -0700 From: "Pat Maddox" To: questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Docker Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.09 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[messagingengine.com:dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:64.147.123.19]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[patmaddox.com:s=fm2,messagingengine.com:s=fm3]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[64.147.123.19:from]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[patmaddox.com:+,messagingengine.com:+]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[patmaddox.com]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[pat]; ASN(0.00)[asn:29838, ipnet:64.147.123.0/24, country:US]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ARC_NA(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Pz7144Zbgz4KP4 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On Wed, Apr 12, 2023, at 7:52 AM, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > Docker is many things - the UI the least important. > > Docker is a mechanism for creating container images from text > descriptions in Dockerfiles each of which defines an overlay to be app= lied > to a base image (either an OS image or one defined in a Dockerfile).=20 > > A common use for this mechanism is to assemble servers by picking an > off-the-shelf image with the right service(s) and building a custom > configuration/application layer on top of it. Rinse, repeat until every > element of a stack is defined and get swarm or kubernetes to deploy and > manage it. This use depends strongly on the rich public library of > application layers. In order to have this in FreeBSD we'd either have = to be > able to use the Linux images directly or we'd need a similar library of > FreeBSD images (OCI compliant if we want kubernetes) - which is an awf= ul lot > of playing catch up. When people advocate for incorporating this aspect of Docker in to FreeB= SD, I have to ask: why? I believe the main points are: - packaging and distribution - layer caching - third-party tool / vendor support. Docker addresses the proliferation of Linux distros and package managers= . Maintainers don=E2=80=99t want to try to build for every possible comb= ination, so they decide the distro for users as part of the image. It=E2= =80=99s pretty common to skip the package manager completely in that cas= e, and just stuff the binary and config files wherever they feel like th= at day. It=E2=80=99s the one package format that (in theory) works the s= ame across all Linux distros. We, of course, have the ports tree. Install a package, and you can edit = the config file with /usr/local/etc/pkg-name and there=E2=80=99s a = > 80% chance you=E2=80=99ve got it right. Run `service start pkg-name` i= n the case of a service and it=E2=80=99s up-and-running. I love this con= sistency - it makes it a lot easier to understand what=E2=80=99s going o= n in a system. DHH popularized the term =E2=80=9Cconvention over configu= ration.=E2=80=9D Well, FreeBSD has extraordinarily strong conventions - = including where to place configuration files! What about distribution? Docker seems to have the upper hand here=E2=80=A6= until you realize that a FreeBSD jail is just a bunch of files on the f= ile system, that the host kernel isolates. You want to distribute a jail= ? Zip it up, and extract it somewhere else. zfs send if you=E2=80=99re f= ancy. If you can do it with files, you can do it with jails. Layer caching is a non-issue to me. I=E2=80=99ve spent as much time re-o= rganizing Dockerfile so it doesn=E2=80=99t build more than I want, as it= has saved me in build time. I don=E2=80=99t deploy to enough servers th= at caching makes an appreciable difference - and the over all complexity= trade off is far worse. As far as third-party support=E2=80=A6 yep, Docker is king here. I absol= utely believe we can, should, and will apply many of the principles from= the Docker ecosystem to FreeBSD. It=E2=80=99s only a matter of time bef= ore someone is sufficiently motivated to design an automated deployment = and scaling system like what=E2=80=99s currently done with Docker. For a= ll we know, there are orgs out there with killer jail deployments that j= ust aren=E2=80=99t talking about it [1]. For me, FreeBSD wins big on operational simplicity. Yes, we don=E2=80=99= t have some of the gadgetry that Docker has. We also don=E2=80=99t have = anywhere near the same kind of financial investment as Docker has had. Y= ou think FreeBSD=E2=80=99s market share is small? Well I think it is rem= arkably high and packs a lot of bang for the buck compared to the enormo= us amounts of money that have been poured into Linux and Docker. Everything I=E2=80=99ve seen of FreeBSD so far - and what strongly attra= cts me to it - is that its user base skews heavily pragmatic, which is r= eflected in its ongoing development and ecosystem. People will continue = to experiment with jails, develop new conventions and techniques for wor= king with them, and share their efforts with others. The useful stuff wi= ll stick around and evolve, same as it has done since the beginning of B= SD. We don=E2=80=99t need Docker=E2=80=99s tools. We can apply some of its p= rinciples. Perhaps most of all, we can see in it many shining examples o= f what NOT to do. Pat [1] Allan Jude has written about deploying system images with ZFS: http= s://papers.freebsd.org/2019/asiabsdcon/jude-managing_system_images_with_= zfs/ From nobody Sat Apr 15 16:25:17 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PzJZZ6ZvYz45bnf for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 16:25:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmc-freebsd2@milibyte.co.uk) Received: from cp160176.hpdns.net (cp160176.hpdns.net [91.238.160.176]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PzJZY5tYhz4Zn0 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 16:25:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmc-freebsd2@milibyte.co.uk) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=milibyte.co.uk header.s=default header.b=IAeI8mmM; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jmc-freebsd2@milibyte.co.uk designates 91.238.160.176 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jmc-freebsd2@milibyte.co.uk; 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Sat, 15 Apr 2023 17:25:17 +0100 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=curlew.localnet) by curlew.milibyte.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.95) (envelope-from ) id 1pniiD-0000pQ-QO for questions@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 17:25:17 +0100 From: Mike Clarke To: questions@freebsd.org Subject: MySQL server silently fails to start after upgrading from 5.7.40 to 8.0.32 Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2023 17:25:17 +0100 Message-ID: <4381878.Iv3B0QcHgC@curlew> List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="nextPart2164183.PLFibm3KWW" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jmc-freebsd2@milibyte.co.uk X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on curlew.milibyte.co.uk); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-YourOrg-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-YourOrg-MailScanner-ID: 1pniiH-0006l2-00 X-YourOrg-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-YourOrg-MailScanner-SpamCheck: X-YourOrg-MailScanner-From: jmc-freebsd2@milibyte.co.uk X-Spam-Status: No X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - cp160176.hpdns.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - freebsd.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - milibyte.co.uk X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: cp160176.hpdns.net: authenticated_id: mailpool@milibyte.co.uk X-Authenticated-Sender: cp160176.hpdns.net: mailpool@milibyte.co.uk X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.32 / 15.00]; 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charset="UTF-8" After upgrading packages to the the new quarterly release mysql was upgraded to 8.0.32 and it fails to start and does not produce any failure message on the console and I couldn't find any relevant failure message anywhere in /var/logs. I have updated my.cnf by copying the entire file from my.cnf.sample. I've reverted back to the earlier BE with my working mysql5 and here's the diff between / usr/local/etc/mysql/my.cnf and /tmp/my.cnf which was copied from the BE containing mysql8 --- /usr/local/etc/mysql/my.cnf 2019-07-16 14:41:30.000000000 +0100 +++ /tmp/my.cnf 2023-04-15 17:10:55.395944000 +0100 @@ -1,2 +0,0 @@ -# $FreeBSD: head/databases/mysql57-server/files/my.cnf.sample.in 414707 2016-05-06 14:39:59Z riggs $ - @@ -19 +17 @@ -slave-load-tmpdir = /var/db/mysql_tmpdir +replica-load-tmpdir = /var/db/mysql_tmpdir @@ -23,2 +20,0 @@ -master-info-repository = TABLE -relay-log-info-repository = TABLE @@ -31 +27 @@ -expire_logs_days = 30 +binlog_expire_logs_seconds = 2592000 @@ -45,2 +40,0 @@ -query_cache_type = 0 -query_cache_size = 0 @@ -51 +45 @@ -innodb_data_file_path = ibdata1:82M:autoextend +innodb_data_file_path = ibdata1:128M:autoextend @@ -54 +48 @@ -innodb_log_file_size = 256M +innodb_redo_log_capacity = 512M @@ -59 +52,0 @@ -skip-symbolic-links -- Mike Clarke --nextPart2164183.PLFibm3KWW Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"

After upgrading packages to the the new quarterly release mysql was upgraded to 8.0.32 and it fails to start and does not produce any failure message on the console and I couldn't find any relevant failure message anywhere in /var/logs.


I have updated my.cnf by copying the entire file from my.cnf.sample.


I've reverted back to the earlier BE with my working mysql5 and here's the diff between /usr/local/etc/mysql/my.cnf and /tmp/my.cnf which was copied from the BE containing mysql8


--- /usr/local/etc/mysql/my.cnf 2019-07-16 14:41:30.000000000 +0100

+++ /tmp/my.cnf 2023-04-15 17:10:55.395944000 +0100

@@ -1,2 +0,0 @@

-# $FreeBSD: head/databases/mysql57-server/files/my.cnf.sample.in 414707 2016-05-06 14:39:59Z riggs $

-

@@ -19 +17 @@

-slave-load-tmpdir               = /var/db/mysql_tmpdir

+replica-load-tmpdir             = /var/db/mysql_tmpdir

@@ -23,2 +20,0 @@

-master-info-repository          = TABLE

-relay-log-info-repository       = TABLE

@@ -31 +27 @@

-expire_logs_days                = 30

+binlog_expire_logs_seconds      = 2592000

@@ -45,2 +40,0 @@

-query_cache_type                = 0

-query_cache_size                = 0

@@ -51 +45 @@

-innodb_data_file_path           = ibdata1:82M:autoextend

+innodb_data_file_path           = ibdata1:128M:autoextend

@@ -54 +48 @@

-innodb_log_file_size            = 256M

+innodb_redo_log_capacity        = 512M

@@ -59 +52,0 @@

-skip-symbolic-links


--

Mike Clarke

--nextPart2164183.PLFibm3KWW-- From nobody Sat Apr 15 16:29:10 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PzJg43KqXz45cLG for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 16:29:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) Received: from soth.netfence.it (mailserver.netfence.it [78.134.96.152]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mailserver.netfence.it", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PzJg374xbz3DTh for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 16:29:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from [10.1.2.18] (mailserver.netfence.it [78.134.96.152]) (authenticated bits=0) by soth.netfence.it (8.17.1/8.17.1) with ESMTPSA id 33FGTA3f005394 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Sat, 15 Apr 2023 18:29:10 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=netfence.it; s=202304; t=1681576152; bh=1y8IWqB/jAs3pHG6OWx6eRDiOK8FP/H2ODbpm/0ImzM=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=v9ycQH3BfTSLX7FRFFwhTnnl6oFBx2MRAPB1OdrpDVBhvXv6zpxAcN8490AhW8xLt 4vghu6CHgwf7v/TCR7NljEF+n+qX/MHqDRhwWwu0Ipb5dT+4knPKHmVhlpH7hEiFLs 3TdDNd1fAsQ7fcay+Idhd2FTBZIKt7iH7bBKb8J0= X-Authentication-Warning: soth.netfence.it: Host mailserver.netfence.it [78.134.96.152] claimed to be [10.1.2.18] Message-ID: Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2023 18:29:10 +0200 List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.10.0 Subject: Re: MySQL server silently fails to start after upgrading from 5.7.40 to 8.0.32 Content-Language: en-US To: Mike Clarke , questions@freebsd.org References: <4381878.Iv3B0QcHgC@curlew> From: Andrea Venturoli In-Reply-To: <4381878.Iv3B0QcHgC@curlew> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.86 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PzJg374xbz3DTh X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:35612, ipnet:78.134.0.0/17, country:IT] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On 4/15/23 18:25, Mike Clarke wrote: > > After upgrading packages to the the new quarterly release mysql was > upgraded to 8.0.32 and it fails to start and does not produce any > failure message on the console and I couldn't find any relevant failure > message anywhere in /var/logs. What's in /var/db/mysql/{hostname}.err? bye av. From nobody Sat Apr 15 16:48:40 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PzK5h3fG6z45f4f for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 16:48:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-ml@daemonbytes.net) Received: from mxout01.bytecamp.net (mxout01.bytecamp.net [212.204.60.217]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PzK5f56V2z3vcT for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 16:48:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-ml@daemonbytes.net) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=daemonbytes.net header.s=20140709 header.b=ixBkNEgU; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd-ml@daemonbytes.net designates 212.204.60.217 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd-ml@daemonbytes.net; dmarc=none Received: by mxout01.bytecamp.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id A50AB29971; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 18:48:51 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=daemonbytes.net; h=from:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to:message-id; s=20140709; bh=ZWOnlXA1tOp/A80/fO/q9i0voug=; b=ixBkNEgUipNcRfW8Fn0bnZfMtadS8u9PK3lbkDN7SLGvAGR7ozJIelVTSCNG/CCNtcxGVoUYZ5ZjonoRHUJgsS7SlSuV+aKaLJr7aUDfB1DjOqz/wTeFGls4cmkdwIpL2hnwycDjPuPQnaUdhR9bPbDIhveuv5v5keo2tKYDOoM= Received: from mail.bytecamp.net (mail.bytecamp.net [212.204.60.9]) by mxout01.bytecamp.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 693902996E for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 18:48:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 81358 invoked from network); 15 Apr 2023 18:48:51 +0200 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpclient.apple) (request@daemonbytes.net@178.27.123.10) by mail.bytecamp.net with ESMTPS (AES256-GCM-SHA384 encrypted); 15 Apr 2023 18:48:51 +0200 From: Daniel Dowse Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3731.500.231\)) Subject: Re: MySQL server silently fails to start after upgrading from 5.7.40 to 8.0.32 Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2023 18:48:40 +0200 References: <4381878.Iv3B0QcHgC@curlew> To: questions@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <4381878.Iv3B0QcHgC@curlew> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.500.231) X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.20 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.999]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.20)[212.204.60.217:from,212.204.60.9:received]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:212.204.60.0/24]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[daemonbytes.net:s=20140709]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; ASN(0.00)[asn:12693, ipnet:212.204.32.0/19, country:DE]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[daemonbytes.net:+]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[daemonbytes.net]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PzK5f56V2z3vcT X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N > Am 15.04.2023 um 18:25 schrieb Mike Clarke = : >=20 >=20 > After upgrading packages to the the new quarterly release mysql was = upgraded to 8.0.32 and it fails to start and does not produce any = failure message on the console and I couldn't find any relevant failure = message anywhere in /var/logs. >=20 Hi Mike, I was facing similar problems when upgrading MySQL 5.7.x to MySQL 8.x = stalling with no error message from the mysql daemon or system. I fixed = it by upgrading my VM to 8GB System RAM. I had this issue first with = Hetzer=E2=80=99s Cloud Infra and later I could reproduce the issue in my = local environment with (bhyve,VirtualBox) VMs with less then 8GB RAM = using FreeBSD 12.x, FreeBSD 13.x with MySQL 8.x from packages.=20 So I would suggest to upgrade the RAM of your Server/VM and repeat the = upgrade procedure of MySQL. Best regards and success Daniel From nobody Sat Apr 15 18:28:55 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PzMKR1FJcz44pm4 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 18:29:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from trashcan@ellael.org) Received: from mx1.enfer-du-nord.net (mx1.enfer-du-nord.net [91.121.41.56]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PzMKQ5bvDz4HTq for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 18:29:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from trashcan@ellael.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from smtpclient.apple (p200300FB4F0367016444d811E44796C2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [IPv6:2003:fb:4f03:6701:6444:d811:e447:96c2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-ECDSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.enfer-du-nord.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4PzMKF617Xz1ZQC; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 20:29:05 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ellael.org; s=dkim; t=1681583346; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=g6YQNYNVnNDc5jOjRVrBpwUFXTCC31Iu89Zt4tRIWpo=; b=o10pEMsduwJRcUGzDisqWyv9hzKHd6ruFi2mEz51Lhnwyaudf4c/yorbc54p1fvNatw8Q8 +l2IOs+jYMBN6BEQfI9chwEwTIaZW2M1GqITOeWkW0B5lbGjXmb1R3Eb6xUToCQLNsWhL9 vm8FJ0C8UaDah+mJ8U2M08RrciT3bTYkN5aJjd7feldRzftD0PzCfscsNxp5riOvQ9QJX4 epIr2twzQt1B/l4C4OpzTmsr+dH5OuzkZQBJGoS6KROCahIfjhuNcxnSpS53sWWJCkyhHC i6U7Wmy0MFLdEyXs7b78O3+bw1tQcvxvqeHt3ogjD1kggtIYDIJnkRI6Q2zzmQ== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3731.500.231\)) Subject: Re: Docker From: Michael Grimm In-Reply-To: <1d0a7ed1-9330-49df-9b66-9ee4387de511@app.fastmail.com> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2023 20:28:55 +0200 Cc: Pat Maddox Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <78F4160A-2D26-4A22-9139-A9132FC42688@ellael.org> References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> <20230412155252.5e38ea4728bd52dc798852fc@sohara.org> <1d0a7ed1-9330-49df-9b66-9ee4387de511@app.fastmail.com> To: questions@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.500.231) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PzMKQ5bvDz4HTq X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16276, ipnet:91.121.0.0/16, country:FR] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N Pat Maddox wrote: > For me, FreeBSD wins big on operational simplicity. Amen > Everything I=E2=80=99ve seen of FreeBSD so far - and what strongly = attracts me to it - is that its user base skews heavily pragmatic, which = is reflected in its ongoing development and ecosystem. People will = continue to experiment with jails, develop new conventions and = techniques for working with them, and share their efforts with others. = The useful stuff will stick around and evolve, same as it has done since = the beginning of BSD. >=20 > We don=E2=80=99t need Docker=E2=80=99s tools. We can apply some of its = principles. Perhaps most of all, we can see in it many shining examples = of what NOT to do. Amen++ =46rom my point of view, I do not see any need for Docker's tools as = well. Jails are simple to set up and to use, and jails can be = distributed by any capable admin, granted. Regadrs, Michael From nobody Sat Apr 15 19:25:07 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PzNZB0HLyz44vb8 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 19:25:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@dreamchaser.org) Received: from nightmare.dreamchaser.org (ns.dreamchaser.org [66.109.141.57]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "discoveriesinwood.com", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PzNZ93f9Cz3Dvl for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 19:25:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@dreamchaser.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from [192.168.151.122] (breakaway [192.168.151.122]) by nightmare.dreamchaser.org (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTP id 33FJP7hO001695; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 13:25:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from freebsd@dreamchaser.org) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2023 12:25:07 -0700 List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.7.0 Reply-To: freebsd@dreamchaser.org Subject: Re: frequent disk error, need guidance Content-Language: en-US To: Polytropon Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List References: <20230415073315.7adfdddd.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Gary Aitken In-Reply-To: <20230415073315.7adfdddd.freebsd@edvax.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.4 (nightmare.dreamchaser.org [192.168.151.101]); Sat, 15 Apr 2023 13:25:08 -0600 (MDT) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PzNZ93f9Cz3Dvl X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:21947, ipnet:66.109.128.0/19, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On 4/14/23 22:33, Polytropon wrote: > On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 20:53:05 -0700, Gary Aitken wrote: >> I'm seeing a boatload of the same error: >> (ada0:ata2:0:0:0): READ_DMA. ACB: c8 00 e2 c7 73 41 00 00 00 00 40 00 >> (ada0:ata2:0:0:0): CAM status: ATA Status Error >> (ada0:ata2:0:0:0): ATA status: 51 (DRDY SERV ERR), error: 40 (UNC ) >> (ada0:ata2:0:0:0): RES: 51 40 e7 c7 73 01 01 00 00 00 00 >> (ada0:ata2:0:0:0): Retrying command, 3 more tries remain >> repeated, with occasional: >> g_vfs_done():ada0p2[READ(offset=12474351616, length=32768)]error = 5 ... >> # smartctl --test=long /dev/ada0 >> # smartctl --log=selftest /dev/ada0 >> Num Test_Description Remaining LBA_of_1st_error >> Status LifeTime(hours) >> >> # 1 Extended offline Completed: read failure 90% 7482 24365031 >> # 2 Short offline Completed: read failure 90% 7482 24365031 >> # 3 Short offline Completed: read failure 90% 7482 24365031 >> # 4 Short offline Completed without error 00% 0 - >> >> So I presume a bad block/sector on the disk. > > Probably too many bad blocks. The disks's firmware will > remap defective blocks to spare ones, and as soon as you > receive errors on OS level, it ran out of spare blocks. > This means it is not the beginning of a problem, but > the problem now is significant, and the disk probably > has arrived its end of life. > > There is another option: Check all cables. Power to > be sure, but data is most important. In worst case, > try replacing the data cable. Check that it sits > as inteded on both sides. Yes - sometimes it is > that simple. ;-) Thanks all who responded. Replaced the cable and retried, no change. Used different port with new cable, no change. Brought up, tested (smartctl --test=long), set up a new disk. Having never actually done this (I've always installed a newer version of fbsd in such cases), wanted to see if the following is a good way to copy the old disk to the new one. mount /dev/ada1p2 /mnt/newsys cd /mnt/newsys dump -0 -f - /dev/ada0p2 | restore -r -Dv -f - However... this is a running system, which seems unlikely to produce a consistent result. There are only 2 sata slots on the mobo, so I can't mount a third system, although I might be able to build a memstick and use that. Can I reboot in a read-only manner and do the above? Never done that, not sure what's involved. Is single-user mode sufficient? Thanks, Gary From nobody Sat Apr 15 19:32:02 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PzNkH59SMz44vyx for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 19:32:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx0.riseup.net (mx0.riseup.net [198.252.153.6]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mx0.riseup.net", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PzNkG4WyYz3jRl for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 19:32:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=UIzxHuXD; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.6 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net Received: from fews01-sea.riseup.net (unknown [10.0.1.109]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mail.riseup.net", Issuer "R3" (not verified)) by mx0.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PzNkD5w7Nz9tFP for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 19:32:20 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1681587140; bh=qIZ5eEDr5mRTldxpFoLHYsQTqHM7UpPXb36Cv6AVN2A=; h=Subject:From:To:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=UIzxHuXDEqiSx67OJEKWFOoA3jqYTSSvX6nuze1UlAQwoozlvLdFQVEWfzsCU82MI 2tuMEStdDMM+DMca2GYWqYn3bfpCe2/Qyvuu89LotREvkQDGHOjzqdqp/O9+rGgxKz mMoThErjUp9xTh5Hr2qQ+T1ZUA+rkVYeEN0PPaso= X-Riseup-User-ID: ABF9B9DFDD9083E153942DEC9F300F9220F719A10B5969F2B556372BF9E95E52 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fews01-sea.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4PzNk11NxrzJqkT for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 19:32:09 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <8f3a86806377c2c92039eaf2765f5b85862de178.camel@riseup.net> Subject: Re: Docker From: Ralf Mardorf To: questions@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2023 21:32:02 +0200 In-Reply-To: <78F4160A-2D26-4A22-9139-A9132FC42688@ellael.org> References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> <20230412155252.5e38ea4728bd52dc798852fc@sohara.org> <1d0a7ed1-9330-49df-9b66-9ee4387de511@app.fastmail.com> <78F4160A-2D26-4A22-9139-A9132FC42688@ellael.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.10 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.997]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a:mx0.riseup.net]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.6:from]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PzNkG4WyYz3jRl X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N There are countless container approaches available under Linux. None of these approaches are mature and almost all, if not all, will be phased out before they are mature. I guess nobody wants to experience a Canonical and/or Google universe. Somewhere in the Internet I found "While Docker is a container runtime, Kubernetes is a platform for running and managing containers from many container runtimes". At next somebody will introduce a platform that does manage platforms for platforms. An energy turnaround looks way different. From nobody Sat Apr 15 20:47:21 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PzQNr4hqcz453K7 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 20:47:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from johnl@iecc.com) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "gal.iecc.com", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PzQNr2crmz3NkM for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 20:47:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from johnl@iecc.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: (qmail 89075 invoked from network); 15 Apr 2023 20:47:23 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=15bf1.643b0d5b.k2304; bh=COayeAMlBScNj1wF/zEgLfnJI7Vp/NbynG0FmnFlK9c=; b=deZZ/GB8s9WMkMbfXjzBr18WtwsOZGoPzVQWN/XvjoCLqmCwnVNRHaAMebJyEDXT3iDSSsZQIwX8LYRfNPcHYikdO6oou32gydTngwKppTYcZjV5QBJNlO8VmDcgZf/iSR2z6NuSqncF8erS7nPCXzhdSRhgaR4GrcZJGRAVoLhdrmEWKGOnEqKen4GIda2sm0DmWVdx9960Y2+3xEezJuKE57n6VAdA+lMTZvWBbMkQhtxrPQZfPaRfKABPMlP+2ZZ8H0dnHesGVNdbPQgImJMGIN/ZaH5rQmnPLTSYRBDO4gKIeF/0mg/iL4z/C3kI2IOm9Al7qIbvPXM6ZB3hgw== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.3 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 15 Apr 2023 20:47:22 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id DD803BF2E2EA; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 16:47:21 -0400 (EDT) Date: 15 Apr 2023 16:47:21 -0400 Message-Id: <20230415204721.DD803BF2E2EA@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd@dreamchaser.org Subject: Re: frequent disk error, need guidance In-Reply-To: Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Cleverness: minimal List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PzQNr2crmz3NkM X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N It appears that Gary Aitken said: >of fbsd in such cases), wanted to see if the following is a good way >to copy the old disk to the new one. > >mount /dev/ada1p2 /mnt/newsys >cd /mnt/newsys >dump -0 -f - /dev/ada0p2 | restore -r -Dv -f - > >However... this is a running system, which seems unlikely to produce >a consistent result. I'd shut down to single user, make a /.snap directory, and do dump -L to tell it to make a snapshot before dumping. That should work OK. From nobody Sat Apr 15 21:21:51 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PzR8x0TJJz456WG for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 21:22:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from holgerdanske.com (holgerdanske.com [IPv6:2001:470:0:19b::b869:801b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "holgerdanske.com", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PzR8w0vW5z3Kmy for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 21:22:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=holgerdanske.com header.s=nov-20210719-112354 header.b=jcwmvXtS; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpchrist@holgerdanske.com designates 2001:470:0:19b::b869:801b as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dpchrist@holgerdanske.com; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=holgerdanske.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=holgerdanske.com; s=nov-20210719-112354; t=1681593720; bh=u9jHfRQ0p70K+z/1TE4spjoVlw7vO0Ssy48fmghAV2U=; h=Received:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:User-Agent:Subject:To: References:Content-Language:From:In-Reply-To:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=jcwmvXtSzWJz7m4uvnxfJew+mkhVO6Ulw7ZQVb7Tq5GCdUy+EEj6oVd+x5Oq/qpQI t4ZnWjmeb5rUCEoHaY+ldh71ztBXSR0OrDbwqeslh7Yrt1wR7Wnd5TKEi+6x+UFPO1 ktOeWLrrjYnc5z+FQ6+LTaARQFX7TYm2uvt3C7YUANAKp/Cr01AotMHA5BFBWk5x3w jyJb3A69yBpwzFlgp/gmDiHn0v94+ctQcoaVfqkGf6rgw9gKU9r9jj802IFePwqxOO V1Q3Yor4ap3dEFpkqojGJKNZhcn5Mgu7QXK/XoxsYXcUbjKwgY0yLiO7uHmDwDUBzC mV7XTU4iNbSV7lx0uBEwn6301gjxtJUa2dEaqYWbSkTI6SsiQdgFIB97xKWlvzEwDt VagPGULc3qVyRJtT2dteY8OrgYrdngchdyzvsqcow9JPjz9+sm8qd+PukZ1iu5EPG3 wV5GNfqZ+dWNZnxpen2CeGNOy+8WZO0XdHzXi487QuSgRPiUhUjJGVtldafx+AA4e3 CrFvuipI/X+G2EGrPsBzRUhbG8eC6F1A1/MSrD2YcPatdIoN8txS2A1ddg/v3HLqGV uSv8nL8oKaY0AE0yXaixPkbGFxc2a9ytg7YHqavnLSP8Edd+yn6vNpUv21vttTgmyb DMrR6+xoIlkstrDa/O3lZuOk= Received: from 99.100.19.101 (99-100-19-101.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net [99.100.19.101]) by holgerdanske.com with ESMTPSA (TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:TLSv1.3:Kx=any:Au=any:Enc=AESGCM(128):Mac=AEAD) (SMTP-AUTH username dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, mechanism PLAIN) for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 14:22:00 -0700 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2023 14:21:51 -0700 List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.9.0 Subject: Re: frequent disk error, need guidance To: questions@freebsd.org References: <20230415073315.7adfdddd.freebsd@edvax.de> Content-Language: en-US From: David Christensen In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[holgerdanske.com,none]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a:november.he.net]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[holgerdanske.com:s=nov-20210719-112354]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[holgerdanske.com:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PzR8w0vW5z3Kmy X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On 4/15/23 12:25, Gary Aitken wrote: > Thanks all who responded. > Replaced the cable and retried, no change. > Used different port with new cable, no change. > Brought up, tested (smartctl --test=long), set up a new disk. > Having never actually done this (I've always installed a newer version > of fbsd in such cases), wanted to see if the following is a good way > to copy the old disk to the new one. > > mount /dev/ada1p2 /mnt/newsys > cd /mnt/newsys > dump -0 -f - /dev/ada0p2 | restore -r -Dv -f - > > However... this is a running system, which seems unlikely to produce > a consistent result. > > There are only 2 sata slots on the mobo, so I can't mount a third > system, although I might be able to build a memstick and use that. > Can I reboot in a read-only manner and do the above? > Never done that, not sure what's involved. > Is single-user mode sufficient? > > Thanks, > > Gary Okay. So, it sounds like the HDD is failing. I would not attempt to clone the system drive of running OS -- it is a moving target, and I do not have the expertise. If you boot a live drive, I expect dump/ restore of each file system could work. But, you also have to deal with partitioning schemes, partition table(s), slices, partitions, boot loaders, file systems, etc.. AIUI Clonezilla facilitates such, but I am unsure of its FreeBSD support: https://clonezilla.org/ I do imaging/ cloning the KISS way -- I shut down the computer, connect a large HDD, boot a live USB stick, and use dd(1) to copy the system drive blocks 0 through the end of the last slice to an image file on the external HDD. I typically pipe the stream through gzip(1) to reduce storage space and run time. I restore by copying the image file to the system drive or to a replacement drive. I clone by copying the source drive or the image file to a target drive. This process is complete for MBR partitioning. For GPT partitioning, you must account for the backup partition table; the simplest approach is to copy the entire system drive. David From nobody Sat Apr 15 23:08:36 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PzTXV65DKz45GJZ for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 23:09:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yw1-x112b.google.com (mail-yw1-x112b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::112b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PzTXV2dDTz4Jb6 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 23:09:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-yw1-x112b.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-54f21cdfadbso335831447b3.7 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 16:09:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1681600153; x=1684192153; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=0z/WFQxARyFL55FQRH3SvYc5ZfGMj6ilKq0pcCOoaTY=; b=DDluLJCh4x7CDha88xh32GqjpRilULSz+R8ANY4/xta/d2/jyfsA1hIZtd8YDM20GZ DvwP/u8RAytT7fGCxlznsYSofsjZakHVGo5rT9BAYo+5UJG1HnqARW9cjjay+r+r++HE le1SQbsiaxp/S55LV2Uys3aTqAzAcQ2q+WgA5vR7KA2/bl4QZCjuYn6sGQUVbFBuB0n4 AraKoaPZoqiqPA9OVOVglDYVNnk1nvyjp8StNSLJhmJwsmJroZOWuS4P1HixNsYOSJcD k2RbEMGUoNvIEeYiFZGCuQHAWSqndDfDLyxO7X+exKmtA5owx4w7KcrVEZbwVw+GaaBv d7Cw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1681600153; x=1684192153; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=0z/WFQxARyFL55FQRH3SvYc5ZfGMj6ilKq0pcCOoaTY=; b=krDWJYZpClKyRS1si329lPZKNc5zeF5WDbfqWSuHlMcUbVtLypHBtFqLzi8v1BVBHG Cs9RddcpuXA09HQNBkT61NWr9Dhqh6RI5itsA5cTvftSnJwl5GHUMeTND8StVUWs2OTP /9wn0m7HxQv2zks8z6XJD2vnMjx/KBC+r37bvkTwc0HYKQ5FtIT2yozUwyxaHr+4fmGB rtEMkFrwwGW63TcGaF5SCVj0Lv7YfBzqIjpW2LTJO8jsCm/q+NN8htpsiwFJTN8E4fRL EEJYIfJx+oK1Zits7hA7Fjo0ZQBalHUCv8w2nvJLNeneyu7oAq4N0QZOhMNlU9rOQ4Og ILDQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9deUUsaBXsxfeqOFEbiGcuNWXD2XBJczsdsN2V//U9i7iB0CLyG akwDBlTnsIKPWno7d7mZJA30H/JaoIvkflOEyjrPXEkeKvY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350bHxGlhEXeR5s5J6PCT33qx9xiK1pL1Gd33KdeIypxx4HnEQL6jIwixfY0zQ9pQaOK5Xg8TGT62NdQKMZVm+ss= X-Received: by 2002:a81:ac5a:0:b0:54f:b56a:cd0f with SMTP id z26-20020a81ac5a000000b0054fb56acd0fmr6604885ywj.3.1681600152790; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 16:09:12 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> <20230412155252.5e38ea4728bd52dc798852fc@sohara.org> <1d0a7ed1-9330-49df-9b66-9ee4387de511@app.fastmail.com> <78F4160A-2D26-4A22-9139-A9132FC42688@ellael.org> <8f3a86806377c2c92039eaf2765f5b85862de178.camel@riseup.net> In-Reply-To: <8f3a86806377c2c92039eaf2765f5b85862de178.camel@riseup.net> From: Mario Marietto Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2023 01:08:36 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Docker To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c2e8ea05f9680b73" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PzTXV2dDTz4Jb6 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --000000000000c2e8ea05f9680b73 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable With this general attitude, full of firm convictions and systematic stigmatization of other people's ideas (when they aren't canonical), there is not enough space for the emergence of divergent ideas,ideas that can create innovation because they are able to break thought patterns became too static and historicised. It is a pity because in order to develop, progress needs to be nourished above all by unpopular and divergent ideas. I'm not talking specifically about porting docker to FreeBSD, but I'm talking about the way you express your ideas, which, in my opinion, aren't dynamic and open to changes and aren't ready to welcome innovations that come from other systems such as Linux, which always have something that's wrong. Some of you demonize Linux too much and you don't see the great amount of innovations it has brought. I like both Linux and FreeBSD and I am sad to read that the latter is always used less in the industry. There may be reasons, but few of you seem to realize that some of them are inherent to their own views about how FreeBSD should be. On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 9:32=E2=80=AFPM Ralf Mardorf wrote: > There are countless container approaches available under Linux. None of > these approaches are mature and almost all, if not all, will be phased > out before they are mature. > > I guess nobody wants to experience a Canonical and/or Google universe. > > Somewhere in the Internet I found "While Docker is a container runtime, > Kubernetes is a platform for running and managing containers from many > container runtimes". > > At next somebody will introduce a platform that does manage platforms > for platforms. An energy turnaround looks way different. > > --=20 Mario. --000000000000c2e8ea05f9680b73 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 
=
With this general attitude, full of firm convictions and systematic=
 stigmatization of other 
people's ideas (when they aren't canon=
ical), there is not enough space for the emergence of 
divergent ideas,i=
deas that can create innovation because they are able to break thought 
=
patterns became too static and historicised. It is a pity because in order =
to develop, 
progress needs to be nourished above all by unpopular and d=
ivergent ideas. 
I'm not talking specific=
ally about porting docker to FreeBSD, but I'm talking about the way you express your ideas, which, in my opinion, aren't dynamic and open =
to changes and aren't
ready to welcome innovations that come from ot=
her systems such as Linux, which always have
something that's wrong.=
 Some of you demonize Linux too much and you don't see the great 
am=
ount of innovations it has brought. I like both Linux and FreeBSD and I am =
sad to read
that the latter is always used less in the industry. There m=
ay be reasons, but few of you 
seem to realize that some of them are inh=
erent to their own views about how FreeBSD 
should be.

=

On Sat, Ap=
r 15, 2023 at 9:32=E2=80=AFPM Ralf Mardorf <ralf-mardorf@riseup.net> wrote:
=

There are countless=
 container approaches available under Linux. None of

these approaches are mature and almost all, if not all, will be phased

out before they are mature.



I guess nobody wants to experience a Canonical and/or Google universe.



Somewhere in the Internet I found "While Docker is a container runtime=
,

Kubernetes is a platform for running and managing containers from many

container runtimes".



At next somebody will introduce a platform that does manage platforms

for platforms. An energy turnaround looks way different.






-- 
Mario.


--000000000000c2e8ea05f9680b73--