From nobody Fri May 10 23:38:38 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Vblh02Zflz5KfWT for ; Fri, 10 May 2024 23:38:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from henrichhartzer@tuta.io) Received: from w1.tutanota.de (w1.tutanota.de [81.3.6.162]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (Client CN "mail.tutanota.de", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Vblgz3pMWz4t8T for ; Fri, 10 May 2024 23:38:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from henrichhartzer@tuta.io) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=tuta.io header.s=s1 header.b=wWE1Zpw1; dmarc=pass (policy=quarantine) header.from=tuta.io; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of henrichhartzer@tuta.io designates 81.3.6.162 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=henrichhartzer@tuta.io Received: from tutadb.w10.tutanota.de (unknown [192.168.1.10]) by w1.tutanota.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C53EFBFB61 for ; Fri, 10 May 2024 23:38:38 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1715384318; s=s1; d=tuta.io; h=From:From:To:To:Subject:Subject:Content-Description:Content-ID:Content-Type:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Date:Date:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Message-ID:Reply-To:References:Sender; bh=Imoh66QlFiy5Nh2lSMq9XZh7r4kuE76ZxpmKxuakNgk=; b=wWE1Zpw1WM7rAyPL/1Du6Evfq4JTHqFdEum38oqPa7S9uqOeNqVzNHIAXK+TdEEt 9p9JV6re52WPExJlV25FtY4tF79kGAunjhh3nV32kH+ievqsk8Yr7hYwHaFaB5XGOvB c0dm+02wxvRrLWtsZtVIsxu/gEud8QJYXhoHgSkVBknCHIBfryF0lf9VVF5WB03N4cr oyki9vONkUZxytIvp2Pno/ugisJw2c1UOOIV2QDHxS6gVHE7FpnmE/D0LO6uSIn2fOs 0ePCIgI+SihqWrv9xaigOeh8cQ2VlKRZKivGKG4i7GcCn9m3nACnqqclzKWHWrWUmgt J51PkBx52g== Date: Sat, 11 May 2024 01:38:38 +0200 (CEST) From: henrichhartzer@tuta.io To: Freebsd Arch Message-ID: Subject: Disabling COMPAT_FREEBSD4/5/6/7/9 in default kernel configurations List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.06 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.96)[-0.955]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[tuta.io,quarantine]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:81.3.6.160/28]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[tuta.io:s=s1]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_VERYGOOD(-0.20)[81.3.6.162:from]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.10)[]; FROM_NO_DN(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:24679, ipnet:81.3.0.0/18, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-arch@freebsd.org]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-arch@freebsd.org]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[tuta.io:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Vblgz3pMWz4t8T Hi everyone, Warner suggested that I run this by the list. In 2018, a bug report was made for disabling COMPAT_FREEBSD4/5/6/7/9 (there's no 8). 6 years later, I imagine this would be as good of a time as any to do this if there's no obvious problems doing so. Here's the bug report: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=231768 And a pull request in the spirit of the original patch: https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/pull/1228 I imagine if this sounds like a good idea, it would land in 15.0. Users could always recompile kernels with the old ABI functionality as needed. I feel like we're all a little curious if anything still uses this, and making this kind of change is probably the best way to find out. In my opinion, if all goes well, it may be wise to remove the old code in the next major version. Could do the full list, or just FreeBSD 4 and 5 compatibility, for instance. Barring notable negative feedback, of course. There were some concerns about Rust, but it sounds like it uses (or used?) FreeBSD 10.X features, which this patch does not remove. On that topic: https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/89058 Long term, it might be a good idea to enable support for EOL-1, and maybe remove code for EOL-2, of course a less aggressive policy is also possible (EOL-2 and EOL-3?). Getting out of the single digit FreeBSD versions should be a good start, though! Appreciate any feedback on this and hopefully we can reach some kind of consensus on how to proceed in 2024. Thank you! -Henrich From nobody Fri May 10 23:48:24 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4VblvV4j8sz5Kg7Q for ; Fri, 10 May 2024 23:48:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-ej1-x62f.google.com (mail-ej1-x62f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::62f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4VblvV06zBz4vTj for ; Fri, 10 May 2024 23:48:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-ej1-x62f.google.com with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-a59a387fbc9so672470466b.1 for ; Fri, 10 May 2024 16:48:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1715384916; x=1715989716; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=JsIWRzLF5P573QrPieEDjkAwzm9reTDHjRBJ06VO0hE=; b=SQa474qVDGr1BV2vmK9rB0ITTNm4fckTbuEw9QxINZhcXgjIhd+8G5gRhiplt8i0Ez DixrKjs3Pf3VsWBWaVS00rx6DZLLOD02Pd6PyU5vj7hEOmNZkbVvC/Pq05iX11REXfvY dSjYUrEi8hl+RpGTk+1b0SzAAjEg3mWLYJ9FEV95mRDQ5TCpN+LuakFhkGFr37xwBG1x kweWbqbf1rfyNxvM+2AWuU64MgHyjYllFBjqMaQa6isfn7wa6HzoD3iPu68tEQxPTl/o p4KSoJqycae2gnua90V0vWGt6wtvaegSYr0ospG8xeeTrDQMxmrwO2H10guWTpvle5gg x1uA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1715384916; x=1715989716; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=JsIWRzLF5P573QrPieEDjkAwzm9reTDHjRBJ06VO0hE=; b=IAuFMviTA598Ay5X1GK1g8wFPtCXTq1rlfaXgY19OK8gcBsubT3SskU5yRwg5AGdlj PoLoEMFh4JDedgZRJMt8u+wk+E7K3dDBLtxNaWkppRn2cE4BP7W4DKHhHQsJoxzsIOoB GCLSlpx7UKndBcuE9kVDjUVH9kZj39WUMvdDnyKt8ScihljYKHNRKdorVlGl2y8/ypv4 q5WmeQpOYf+R2k5ljPIIGUMpJIeYWyfnnArlcPLgpKZWuKaGz5fLtcaDLvo6tloHBsEj GiUTv7ZfCJ3S1LTyoZuJxy14Ig2ITb4WlobO5cclBAWULFEsgQphsYXoVrVIfYGbGVf5 hreA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yzw1IJv5F+DDG7S6aBtsOGVJkYSmFgzGNhTyP7NBGxTs28OErG4 olnm5HTvHt5AsW1e6gKWzoxtdKkvSafnR5QQwSbQG6hh7fCrM1ywEcEtGmwdeoNNQWifvbxy0LH gyk2d6nvY2NbjQHm73idx4srHQsM00lSuZIeGUZ2yB8xcYeM4 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IH1Aswpq1AIgUbS7vSmvBWY5z2QQTpHlXIZvWg6ap/8rdDCC+tdOIv/jrVeUUqe/LE9n0zehv89IAU3aRNblmc= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:4a42:b0:a59:ae6e:486f with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-a5a2d68098fmr242322766b.65.1715384916289; Fri, 10 May 2024 16:48:36 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Fri, 10 May 2024 17:48:24 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Disabling COMPAT_FREEBSD4/5/6/7/9 in default kernel configurations To: henrichhartzer@tuta.io Cc: Freebsd Arch Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000096ce070618222ca7" X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4VblvV06zBz4vTj --00000000000096ce070618222ca7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 5:38=E2=80=AFPM wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Warner suggested that I run this by the list. In 2018, a bug report was > made for disabling COMPAT_FREEBSD4/5/6/7/9 (there's no 8). 6 years later,= I > imagine this would be as good of a time as any to do this if there's no > obvious problems doing so. > > Here's the bug report: > https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D231768 > > And a pull request in the spirit of the original patch: > https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/pull/1228 > > I imagine if this sounds like a good idea, it would land in 15.0. Users > could always recompile kernels with the old ABI functionality as needed. = I > feel like we're all a little curious if anything still uses this, and > making this kind of change is probably the best way to find out. > > In my opinion, if all goes well, it may be wise to remove the old code in > the next major version. Could do the full list, or just FreeBSD 4 and 5 > compatibility, for instance. Barring notable negative feedback, of course= . > > There were some concerns about Rust, but it sounds like it uses (or used?= ) > FreeBSD 10.X features, which this patch does not remove. On that topic: > https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/89058 > I like this idea. I think leaving FreeBSD 10 in for now is good, but maybe not completely necessary in -current. We can remove it and FreeBSD 11 support when we branch 15. > Long term, it might be a good idea to enable support for EOL-1, and maybe > remove code for EOL-2, of course a less aggressive policy is also possibl= e > (EOL-2 and EOL-3?). Getting out of the single digit FreeBSD versions shou= ld > be a good start, though! > So one should be able to update one's system from any supported release. But there's always stragglers, and sometimes they are stragglers because there's issues with the latest release. If they can test-boot a new kernel with their current userland, that would let them test the class of 'hardware broken on upgrade' issues to see if it is safe to update userland (or as safe as you can make it). So for 15, we'd want 12 support, I'd think, which is EOL-1. FreeBSD 11 support wouldn't bloat the kernel that much for EOL-2. I think each compat is on the order of a few tens of k. One thing that NetBSD does that's nice, though, is have these sorts of things as loadable modules. That might be a bit tricky to do, but maybe something we could encourage longer term? Then it wouldn't matter so much... I think today, though, it would be hard. > Appreciate any feedback on this and hopefully we can reach some kind of > consensus on how to proceed in 2024. > > Thank you! > Thank you for driving this issue. Warner > -Henrich > > --00000000000096ce070618222ca7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 5:38=E2=80=AF= PM <henrichhartzer@tuta.io= > wrote:
Hi e= veryone,

Warner suggested that I run this by the list. In 2018, a bug report was mad= e for disabling COMPAT_FREEBSD4/5/6/7/9 (there's no 8). 6 years later, = I imagine this would be as good of a time as any to do this if there's = no obvious problems doing so.

Here's the bug report: https://bugs.fr= eebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D231768

And a pull request in the spirit of the original patch: https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/pull/1228

I imagine if this sounds like a good idea, it would land in 15.0. Users cou= ld always recompile kernels with the old ABI functionality as needed. I fee= l like we're all a little curious if anything still uses this, and maki= ng this kind of change is probably the best way to find out.

In my opinion, if all goes well, it may be wise to remove the old code in t= he next major version. Could do the full list, or just FreeBSD 4 and 5 comp= atibility, for instance. Barring notable negative feedback, of course.

There were some concerns about Rust, but it sounds like it uses (or used?) = FreeBSD 10.X features, which this patch does not remove. On that topic: https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/89058

I like this idea. I think leaving FreeBSD 10 = in for now is good, but maybe not completely necessary in -current. We can = remove it and FreeBSD 11 support when we branch 15.
=C2=A0
Long term, it might be a good idea to enable support for EOL-1, and maybe r= emove code for EOL-2, of course a less aggressive policy is also possible (= EOL-2 and EOL-3?). Getting out of the single digit FreeBSD versions should = be a good start, though!

So one should = be able to update one's system from any supported release. But there= 9;s always stragglers, and sometimes they are stragglers because there'= s issues with the latest release. If they can test-boot a new kernel with t= heir current userland, that would let them test the class of 'hardware = broken on upgrade' issues to see if it is safe to update userland (or a= s safe as you can make it). So for 15, we'd want 12 support, I'd th= ink, which is EOL-1. FreeBSD 11 support wouldn't bloat the kernel that = much for EOL-2. I think each compat is on the order of a few tens of k. One= thing that NetBSD does that's nice, though, is have these sorts of thi= ngs as loadable modules. That might be a bit tricky to do, but maybe someth= ing we could encourage longer term? Then it wouldn't matter so much... = I think today, though, it would be hard.
=C2=A0
Appreciate any feedback on this and hopefully we can reach some kind of con= sensus on how to proceed in 2024.

Thank you!

Thank you for driving this i= ssue.

Warner
=C2=A0
-Henrich

--00000000000096ce070618222ca7-- From nobody Fri May 10 23:51:47 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4VblzN2DkBz5KgR6 for ; Fri, 10 May 2024 23:52:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bofh@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4VblzN1RsTz4vqt; Fri, 10 May 2024 23:52:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bofh@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1715385120; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=hC+HwWQfwLhJSkVHr5GPVidURAPCTNAWP8yIMCOEiBo=; b=RiyyD8p1Ig2d61q768y13LA05uPbHnV7cVxCdZ4/nfmnaVVXL3ml3PUAFi9ClGlFfcCwFq YOSgdjOqAJt6udFGFlDbKSnjrLyYpYgLL9V6Tu62TpxNFqrc664gBtSjL26M3fEDXjjZiF A82INYa46nw/V9gzB2m+8kgYGLTRwyd9iM7VnOIoHNVLrlATeYZj8CglMEH383FcLkf77z PQCyOSggkScUMa9SHDIQo4Vjaww+Ldiaw/wt+vxMMPiP2QrpXQA1TpyrkW19QI0+YSJg2F KxMjaQ8MUKDSWMo7qtk9LGuacSoTaRQvvSne4oTF4T0z4t6cW3J8BRYk21HA0w== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1715385120; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=Qt0ma0aFDdeyJLuPm5cFNckeQAcWWaLlHSXrzGwBfb2AX8XuaiqUL3iLRxfXUazGkP1RM5 JKnZGGAfwp8vdEwESprQWz31wR3Rs2l964e+65zZtbWCHq0ThHg0qAJ9NLGX8kcwn1GLOE WFW1elpcw/zFOko6xKtZiZ3BFtxVTFlXRu9kIifmrywC2oYO01R6qWRjcntfhwEplSJKeX clX2FE/APh1913KqdSgPlS8hTK/zFzp5/cVRv0iJbLK2IoqRvXamFFZ8dat9kH/TNiX6bm 7y62N067yS2EGRqAbdsLNvC9a8WDvtB6+GyMJJ9LyxYscgGNOX0yJglhZIjwJw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1715385120; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=hC+HwWQfwLhJSkVHr5GPVidURAPCTNAWP8yIMCOEiBo=; b=T44dWz5yq+MW+1CBx3czg2qHJioH/gWgajK49K1zpwLbUTQ3B9Pp1vpke4T9Q5eK0j8RA/ jK6P0AGcuN5ldVUWruROAiPzLUHAeyfoukxZr9jF3bhnP32IiOa8xkKKQspWnsOI/pYogM pAx1X1tDxF5/17gkjb4uO7MciAsF0LgSrZJ0Co+XVqC+daElAgB7xKg5+kTH3RbfYXVuVT jc2udjN+LnoejtbDchM3JYcsnwqSHILv0xLuEJfk6KajO2yADEjc8mqYVzA6vqMr+dBiXU no74nhgjtxgkzYiWwsFKXkw23EfA6FWzd+9K9e+9vqJrcx0KuXFT4dqB6hrKAQ== Received: from mx.bofh.network (mx.bofh.network [5.9.249.227]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: bofh/mail) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4VblzM5gKGz1R4n; Fri, 10 May 2024 23:51:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bofh@freebsd.org) Received: from smtpclient.apple ( [217.117.226.147]) by mx.bofh.network (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id 53fca2e6 (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-ECDSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256:NO); Fri, 10 May 2024 23:51:58 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3E4222DF-BA85-4C8D-AE74-6494331191FE"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3731.700.6.1.1\)) Subject: Re: Disabling COMPAT_FREEBSD4/5/6/7/9 in default kernel configurations From: Moin Rahman In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 11 May 2024 01:51:47 +0200 Cc: Freebsd Arch Message-Id: <3190A201-A742-4579-8EC3-A99F168B599F@freebsd.org> References: To: henrichhartzer@tuta.io X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.700.6.1.1) --Apple-Mail=_3E4222DF-BA85-4C8D-AE74-6494331191FE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On May 11, 2024, at 1:38 AM, henrichhartzer@tuta.io wrote: >=20 > Hi everyone, >=20 > Warner suggested that I run this by the list. In 2018, a bug report = was made for disabling COMPAT_FREEBSD4/5/6/7/9 (there's no 8). 6 years = later, I imagine this would be as good of a time as any to do this if = there's no obvious problems doing so. >=20 > Here's the bug report: = https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D231768 >=20 > And a pull request in the spirit of the original patch: = https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/pull/1228 >=20 > I imagine if this sounds like a good idea, it would land in 15.0. = Users could always recompile kernels with the old ABI functionality as = needed. I feel like we're all a little curious if anything still uses = this, and making this kind of change is probably the best way to find = out. >=20 > In my opinion, if all goes well, it may be wise to remove the old code = in the next major version. Could do the full list, or just FreeBSD 4 and = 5 compatibility, for instance. Barring notable negative feedback, of = course. >=20 > There were some concerns about Rust, but it sounds like it uses (or = used?) FreeBSD 10.X features, which this patch does not remove. On that = topic: https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/89058 >=20 > Long term, it might be a good idea to enable support for EOL-1, and = maybe remove code for EOL-2, of course a less aggressive policy is also = possible (EOL-2 and EOL-3?). Getting out of the single digit FreeBSD = versions should be a good start, though! >=20 > Appreciate any feedback on this and hopefully we can reach some kind = of consensus on how to proceed in 2024. >=20 > Thank you! >=20 > -Henrich >=20 Hi, Just to clarify that before doing so we have to kill some ports as they will need various misc/compat[4-9]x ports which are dependent on these kernel features. List of ports to be affected: misc/compat4x and emulators/vgba-bin, sysutils/hpacucli misc/compat5x and emulators/mastergear, emulators/vgb-bin, = emulators/vgba-bin, graphics/xnview, net/dhcperf, sysutils/hpacucli misc/compat6x misc/compat7x misc/compat8x and www/thundercache. misc/compat9x misc/compat9x and audio/optimfrog, audio/optimfrog-sse2, misc/compat8x My killing spree for older ports seemed to be proving futile and aggressive and I no longer work on killing outdated and old ports but these ports should be killed or IGNORED before removing these features from the tree. 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Fri, 10 May 2024 17:04:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mutt-hbsd ([184.99.37.29]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e9e14a558f8ab-36cb9e08fc9sm10596375ab.69.2024.05.10.17.04.43 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 10 May 2024 17:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 11 May 2024 00:04:43 +0000 From: Shawn Webb To: henrichhartzer@tuta.io Cc: Freebsd Arch Subject: Re: Disabling COMPAT_FREEBSD4/5/6/7/9 in default kernel configurations Message-ID: <4ruchlg2debo4s54weawnmknxiup2dskqjvj35pz4pjpia7tkl@gpzyivqc7ni2> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD mutt-hbsd 15.0-CURRENT-HBSD FreeBSD 15.0-CURRENT-HBSD X-PGP-Key: https://git.hardenedbsd.org/hardenedbsd/pubkeys/-/blob/master/Shawn_Webb/03A4CBEBB82EA5A67D9F3853FF2E67A277F8E1FA.pub.asc References: List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="szjps3zr2m6hqefl" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4VbmG738Wmz4xDh --szjps3zr2m6hqefl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, May 11, 2024 at 01:38:38AM +0200, henrichhartzer@tuta.io wrote: > Hi everyone, >=20 > Warner suggested that I run this by the list. In 2018, a bug report was m= ade for disabling COMPAT_FREEBSD4/5/6/7/9 (there's no 8). 6 years later, I = imagine this would be as good of a time as any to do this if there's no obv= ious problems doing so. >=20 > Here's the bug report: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id= =3D231768 >=20 > And a pull request in the spirit of the original patch: https://github.co= m/freebsd/freebsd-src/pull/1228 >=20 > I imagine if this sounds like a good idea, it would land in 15.0. Users c= ould always recompile kernels with the old ABI functionality as needed. I f= eel like we're all a little curious if anything still uses this, and making= this kind of change is probably the best way to find out. >=20 > In my opinion, if all goes well, it may be wise to remove the old code in= the next major version. Could do the full list, or just FreeBSD 4 and 5 co= mpatibility, for instance. Barring notable negative feedback, of course. >=20 > There were some concerns about Rust, but it sounds like it uses (or used?= ) FreeBSD 10.X features, which this patch does not remove. On that topic: h= ttps://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/89058 >=20 > Long term, it might be a good idea to enable support for EOL-1, and maybe= remove code for EOL-2, of course a less aggressive policy is also possible= (EOL-2 and EOL-3?). Getting out of the single digit FreeBSD versions shoul= d be a good start, though! >=20 > Appreciate any feedback on this and hopefully we can reach some kind of c= onsensus on how to proceed in 2024. For what it's worth, just as a little data point, HardenedBSD has disabled the following in the base amd64 kernel config: 1. COMPAT_FREEBSD4 2. COMPAT_FREEBSD5 3. COMPAT_FREEBSD6 4. COMPAT_FREEBSD7 5. COMPAT_FREEBSD9 6. COMPAT_FREEBSD10 7. COMPAT_FREEBSD32 I'm somewhat debating adding COMPAT_FREEBSD11 to the list. I'll give that a shot next week and see what happens. Rust seems to work fine for me. Thanks, --=20 Shawn Webb Cofounder / Security Engineer HardenedBSD Tor-ified Signal: +1 303-901-1600 / shawn_webb_opsec.50 https://git.hardenedbsd.org/hardenedbsd/pubkeys/-/raw/master/Shawn_Webb/03A= 4CBEBB82EA5A67D9F3853FF2E67A277F8E1FA.pub.asc --szjps3zr2m6hqefl Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEEA6TL67gupaZ9nzhT/y5nonf44foFAmY+tgYACgkQ/y5nonf4 4fo4AQ//aVjcLwrT6YPPdpC85ahqDm593eD7Jg84qdOB+/DDrqFI03S3PaT48jFl jT3DM8H/8FGadrNzJx2Z7DflszjjNpL7bAzQ59TqQW3P3LKVpTwTuIQgF/whVnm1 hmgf+Q6MEt29kdVUaW45rdW0UVXP6sFydBtNdViMlVZSKP/kZErCZCkqR2ziNylF exg6fcXqBWSESgF7+2dPHyRdOjJxC9AdCx2jpOVkJXwFFRLtUnuBitA4jsQlNZgS rqGJESWFecDxQ7jgfZhTcwyPkjWV4GuDXsGJ3CVvlOUsCc6ad2NwgrGVhVuzILyi HJkUhb7QoZlnjxJzTV8PJzCOT+MEduNglMuE/0+f4oDbrV2POMMrju0nv+aHegbP 68MUj7q4YzQd4SHFlBcyD2eyLAh125gm1XOkqDB5oP8SMlmG6yg+2kSJn1gE3zkw J663epAWQfSAQngkRWqVFj6hEiHj9kSF7iEyzsaw7iSb0j0MweGUPF6ZvoHAuUz1 NnotmV2SxmzPJPhx7tXWDQK6rhut36lhWr8+IdqqcXKoM2u/dpX0veKJ/UZtu1Oj rFXaNzj3h3vU3grPZtDcmfT9e3PQJcasA0acESG8ROgNeg9mFuf3rbfT9KNWuSXp ypcnS2QMnfARSkC64xHXwTu3eb1jFQtS2VgtURWF7b8fW/kg0V4= =/8l0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --szjps3zr2m6hqefl-- From nobody Sat May 11 05:17:11 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4VbvBp5ll7z5L6gn for ; Sat, 11 May 2024 05:17:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-arch@dino.sk) Received: from cm0.netlabit.sk (mailhost.netlabit.sk [84.245.65.72]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4VbvBn4P6Tz45S9 for ; Sat, 11 May 2024 05:17:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-arch@dino.sk) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd-arch@dino.sk designates 84.245.65.72 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd-arch@dino.sk Received: from zeta.dino.sk ([84.245.95.254]) (AUTH: LOGIN milan, TLS: TLSv1.3,256bits,TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by cm0.netlabit.sk with ESMTPSA id 000000000071E976.00000000663EFF58.00001DB4; Sat, 11 May 2024 07:17:12 +0200 Date: Sat, 11 May 2024 07:17:11 +0200 From: Milan Obuch To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Disabling COMPAT_FREEBSD4/5/6/7/9 in default kernel configurations Message-ID: <20240511071711.0c730e63@zeta.dino.sk> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.20.0 (GTK+ 2.24.33; amd64-portbld-freebsd13.3) List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.30 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.997]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:5578, ipnet:84.245.64.0/18, country:SK]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-arch@freebsd.org]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROMTLD(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[dino.sk]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4VbvBn4P6Tz45S9 On Sat, 11 May 2024 01:38:38 +0200 (CEST) henrichhartzer@tuta.io wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Warner suggested that I run this by the list. In 2018, a bug report > was made for disabling COMPAT_FREEBSD4/5/6/7/9 (there's no 8). 6 > years later, I imagine this would be as good of a time as any to do > this if there's no obvious problems doing so. > > Here's the bug report: > https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=231768 > > And a pull request in the spirit of the original patch: > https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/pull/1228 > > I imagine if this sounds like a good idea, it would land in 15.0. > Users could always recompile kernels with the old ABI functionality > as needed. I feel like we're all a little curious if anything still > uses this, and making this kind of change is probably the best way to > find out. > > In my opinion, if all goes well, it may be wise to remove the old > code in the next major version. Could do the full list, or just > FreeBSD 4 and 5 compatibility, for instance. Barring notable negative > feedback, of course. > > There were some concerns about Rust, but it sounds like it uses (or > used?) FreeBSD 10.X features, which this patch does not remove. On > that topic: https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/89058 > In general I think it is good move. In my kernel builds I am trying to use minimal set of features (options, devices) and use loadable modules whenever possible. I used to remove all COMPAT_FREEBSDn options, now I am keeping 11 and up - in my notes rust is being listed, but I think some jdk (or needed bootstrap) required some compatibility, too. Idea of COMPAT_FREEBSDn being converted into loadable module mentioned in some reply is nice, I don't know much in this area to have anything more competent to say. Regards, Milan From nobody Sat May 11 08:39:22 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Vbzj62y6Nz5JR62 for ; Sat, 11 May 2024 08:40:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Alexander@Leidinger.net) Received: from mailgate.Leidinger.net (bastille.leidinger.net [89.238.82.207]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature ECDSA (P-256) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mailgate.leidinger.net", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Vbzj35n6jz4MBV for ; Sat, 11 May 2024 08:40:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Alexander@Leidinger.net) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=leidinger.net header.s=outgoing-alex header.b=x8OWVHVj; dmarc=pass (policy=quarantine) header.from=leidinger.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of Alexander@Leidinger.net designates 89.238.82.207 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=Alexander@Leidinger.net List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=leidinger.net; s=outgoing-alex; t=1715416811; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=0Y5tQtKEp0NZjipZGLb9icUWMl91HuaANWkIYH87RTs=; b=x8OWVHVjTq8fbvpPft9EsZMMwSNdB/6V4l5fDb6Xxxh8eg/CPREsRBlT5LqMyiQTsteWAE EDxYkc0AJcw2B1SS0m6GGrOoHo1bszrRNbk26QZ8D5bbcBaDmKSr1oufUDBBibte/mZDqJ GhAxpCtS3ZJcEDYNfmwZF3WsvYJJ0cRZWheYyTsYPcMFfOXyQGs8RbkMzCSUIlftLpqCQS nMM8EUlv7Xryrf7Y1VztIgFc2k8zwcTH81pSCNIRv8GXa9cB46chTGEaWmasYgKOUnUl9y fb3CtA4gUsjbtNROrdPH+NSrM5iykWeqQyD9YJ54D5Fgdr+oqBmELRP0ldTRYA== Date: Sat, 11 May 2024 10:39:22 +0200 From: Alexander Leidinger To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Disabling COMPAT_FREEBSD4/5/6/7/9 in default kernel configurations In-Reply-To: <20240511071711.0c730e63@zeta.dino.sk> References: <20240511071711.0c730e63@zeta.dino.sk> Message-ID: <95d7c51b7fa6e41dd657fa411455d6b9@Leidinger.net> Organization: No organization, this is a private message. Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=_47b690a7a045752a0249dfdabf4c3192"; micalg=pgp-sha256 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.09 / 15.00]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.994]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[leidinger.net,quarantine]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[leidinger.net:s=outgoing-alex]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34240, ipnet:89.238.64.0/18, country:DE]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[leidinger.net:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-arch@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; HAS_ATTACHMENT(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Vbzj35n6jz4MBV This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --=_47b690a7a045752a0249dfdabf4c3192 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Am 2024-05-11 07:17, schrieb Milan Obuch: > On Sat, 11 May 2024 01:38:38 +0200 (CEST) > henrichhartzer@tuta.io wrote: > >> Hi everyone, >> >> Warner suggested that I run this by the list. In 2018, a bug report >> was made for disabling COMPAT_FREEBSD4/5/6/7/9 (there's no 8). 6 >> years later, I imagine this would be as good of a time as any to do >> this if there's no obvious problems doing so. >> >> Here's the bug report: >> https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=231768 >> >> And a pull request in the spirit of the original patch: >> https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/pull/1228 >> >> I imagine if this sounds like a good idea, it would land in 15.0. >> Users could always recompile kernels with the old ABI functionality >> as needed. I feel like we're all a little curious if anything still >> uses this, and making this kind of change is probably the best way to >> find out. >> >> In my opinion, if all goes well, it may be wise to remove the old >> code in the next major version. Could do the full list, or just >> FreeBSD 4 and 5 compatibility, for instance. Barring notable negative >> feedback, of course. >> >> There were some concerns about Rust, but it sounds like it uses (or >> used?) FreeBSD 10.X features, which this patch does not remove. On >> that topic: https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/89058 >> > > In general I think it is good move. In my kernel builds I am trying to > use minimal set of features (options, devices) and use loadable modules > whenever possible. > > I used to remove all COMPAT_FREEBSDn options, now I am keeping 11 and > up - in my notes rust is being listed, but I think some jdk (or needed > bootstrap) required some compatibility, too. > > Idea of COMPAT_FREEBSDn being converted into loadable module mentioned > in some reply is nice, I don't know much in this area to have anything > more competent to say. We're proud of our backwards compatibility. I remember that a committer reported proudly that they are able to run FreeBSD 1.0 in a jail (even if it was just for fun and not for productive stuff), and the generic feedback was in favour of this. Simply removing this compatibility seems a step backwards in this regard IMO. If COMPAT* is loadable, I would directly agree to remove the support from the GENERIC kernel, but without being able to load this kind of support, people are not able to simply update a system and maybe have some old unmaintained legacy software in an old jail. Note, all my custom kernels only have those COMPAT options which are needed (rust, ...), so I'm in favour of having generic without them, but I do not depend on using the binary kernel which we ship, others might (for whatever non-technical reason). Bye, Alexander. -- http://www.Leidinger.net Alexander@Leidinger.net: PGP 0x8F31830F9F2772BF http://www.FreeBSD.org netchild@FreeBSD.org : PGP 0x8F31830F9F2772BF --=_47b690a7a045752a0249dfdabf4c3192 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc; size=833 Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEER9UlYXp1PSd08nWXEg2wmwP42IYFAmY/LskACgkQEg2wmwP4 2IYYDw//VPq4sBCYr5SySZuozlweVKCm3QtxY4mj3iXDO2hSCzt5zk13VdMDk3dE uK4DvG+219+IwuvmOk3jXfBNwaVPh/7GdfC48AXY/ZwPr+0l0xgdevT+KoxJKC/D +D9lLWpXkNE7v3/oF3Beqc3j0DEl3hYjfX7zgxX7T/M7RmdofeNUF5QZ5pIq6ZnP IjH5sCcm6z7zGqYzW4iwk5o/jcvp/EPxSyE0N8fPyBa2wVHvDl4i4mI48X0Emlgi pv4YGWQxExkTO1am+A4teo6IA9pY1Ij7C3YqFYH7wNuVq2fGagZTmtusKKj/7Fw9 U2vXeY+mYmBjGzAqrsCIexo3UQ4+GeWtaR3IjLSwvWxG4pbBd272kTNNt0yfcyf3 ggOfaWH4yfYl3AkJUXSvCA//slVnE5KGBJd1Duv9lsFY0vn5cNPJqlJ1N7E8/rE9 p/JF5cLOypmL0kvP00tE2odqup/0StJLDORBpgO3eizJL/Ujr16PhLpFiEkYT4Bw ykI/Y6wL8i9nNfsIjbej1ZngxFPrJw55PBzjCzckEI9yg38KcVM3HGNBTb7Jt02i dgSIn+Qp3vQwxG86CXumuRJfOjTzqLJI/7+y8vZ6he98bw8IB6Gp3OI8SLlauL+Y FM9RXH5vgdN+Vx+zKZytbmE3yeS+ZySL/kVsewv0ayCHpsfFFnE= =BSZG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=_47b690a7a045752a0249dfdabf4c3192-- From nobody Sat May 11 09:19:24 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Vc0ZK1xvCz5JVYc for ; Sat, 11 May 2024 09:19:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from kib.kiev.ua (kib.kiev.ua [IPv6:2001:470:d5e7:1::1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Vc0ZJ5LxHz4QS4 for ; Sat, 11 May 2024 09:19:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from tom.home (kib@localhost [127.0.0.1] (may be forged)) by kib.kiev.ua (8.18.1/8.18.1) with ESMTP id 44B9JOX4080155; Sat, 11 May 2024 12:19:27 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 kib.kiev.ua 44B9JOX4080155 Received: (from kostik@localhost) by tom.home (8.18.1/8.18.1/Submit) id 44B9JOEW080154; Sat, 11 May 2024 12:19:24 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) X-Authentication-Warning: tom.home: kostik set sender to kostikbel@gmail.com using -f Date: Sat, 11 May 2024 12:19:24 +0300 From: Konstantin Belousov To: henrichhartzer@tuta.io Cc: Freebsd Arch Subject: Re: Disabling COMPAT_FREEBSD4/5/6/7/9 in default kernel configurations Message-ID: References: List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED,FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD,FREEMAIL_FROM, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=4.0.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0 (2022-12-14) on tom.home X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Vc0ZJ5LxHz4QS4 On Sat, May 11, 2024 at 01:38:38AM +0200, henrichhartzer@tuta.io wrote: > In my opinion, if all goes well, it may be wise to remove the old code in the next major version. Could do the full list, or just FreeBSD 4 and 5 compatibility, for instance. Barring notable negative feedback, of course. Strongly disagree. You are breaking ABI compat for users, for what gain? I do not care about disabling options in GENERIC (but then they must appear in LINT). From nobody Sat May 11 11:35:18 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Vc3b97279z5Jy1t for ; Sat, 11 May 2024 11:35:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-yw1-x1136.google.com (mail-yw1-x1136.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1136]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Vc3b95J3jz4cFT for ; Sat, 11 May 2024 11:35:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-yw1-x1136.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-61e01d5ea74so29118167b3.2 for ; Sat, 11 May 2024 04:35:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; t=1715427332; x=1716032132; darn=freebsd.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=EUS7MkwlZ2QpQt8fJM40ZUMBkfoPOeVcfLv7r+rI9Sk=; b=V5uVeyS2VQWLpBb77UDmc4fHYbLneilqLZYe6TSGLb737WQ9wlR8CsR6RdgEszmvJb IJ7nrF7GSGtbSsKoizly4seO1xPCrVFlGS8YlYuXB+6gQ17NA6TzPZbBfgRQ6xohmUbI v5B8MOabFWfzp0oVZo65sbhgpHgAsr5zWrMb+lqkPrgG6VExu6P945+cNBy8qmCKrxV0 YNQ6GwdHwlOQ7JvpjgZmFySV+N513vZzJjRsoROlZFolJIZUlO+6XKbdmhNiGqVAHLYm kbmF6DeVhbVkErUpaujDoSsWEA6NUJPoiJvVRBOneSkzuwhsZPVcGIcaeZYwaR0J+4Co Nk8A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1715427332; x=1716032132; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=EUS7MkwlZ2QpQt8fJM40ZUMBkfoPOeVcfLv7r+rI9Sk=; b=e3o9/X9kIsQFLBmPj8jo0oxGud0LHTf2PlSOwS5mY3fWat3tZtWCsE6Yo5xsix3V3n 3Z466GhhSUHsOgcwDcp8oPK8AFccnmMEA9X/2CFxgut9Y51oYz9uq84ggC8dPz24g/83 AdIJUmk9MQy/dkUYg0ggXDB+Y3fYZ36vrTE5/hYAPLm82zX1CxXB22GbDuxm7xpmUWcx TsyulET1FYdhL7xuFwTmgh7Rxejmb72GQDqcQez6pLLer2D6IEPrBZNSbsN4T/aLZR2A pU1BfCs/iLkHdVNhiYrtBHFnmJ9TPJHf2FUJeLuzw/eCFs4xp6MHJfKSSgoDBd1g9D96 h8wQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yyd2sdg6cdzTgHeLK9CrGRMyFRndUNQBdNtBpemkiFWeYh+3X8b WO+9i/W+MZ6QFighPrYMvBB1IqDG5iHmla7qTiWKn19UPOJT2eb3QKVG9YOu27V+Fp1L/eRn6IA = X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IG4XjuGbqMiAZ2LweK2onWrfqdjlND6WJSXpxjTky3gNNXj7PPB7VU3H85KbEO3tbLmMIGs8g== X-Received: by 2002:a0d:cb05:0:b0:617:fbaa:1d91 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-622aff774a8mr52660407b3.11.1715427332161; Sat, 11 May 2024 04:35:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw1-f178.google.com (mail-yw1-f178.google.com. [209.85.128.178]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 00721157ae682-6209e37928asm12017357b3.113.2024.05.11.04.35.31 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 11 May 2024 04:35:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw1-f178.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-61e01d5ea74so29117957b3.2 for ; Sat, 11 May 2024 04:35:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a25:b1a3:0:b0:dee:5cb6:483c with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-dee5cb64977mr3132664276.49.1715427331004; Sat, 11 May 2024 04:35:31 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Tomek CEDRO Date: Sat, 11 May 2024 13:35:18 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Disabling COMPAT_FREEBSD4/5/6/7/9 in default kernel configurations To: henrichhartzer@tuta.io Cc: Freebsd Arch Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Vc3b95J3jz4cFT On Sat, May 11, 2024 at 1:38=E2=80=AFAM wrote: > Hi everyone, > Warner suggested that I run this by the list. In 2018, a bug report was m= ade for disabling COMPAT_FREEBSD4/5/6/7/9 (there's no 8). 6 years later, I = imagine this would be as good of a time as any to do this if there's no obv= ious problems doing so. > Here's the bug report: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id= =3D231768 > And a pull request in the spirit of the original patch: https://github.co= m/freebsd/freebsd-src/pull/1228 > I imagine if this sounds like a good idea, it would land in 15.0. Users c= ould always recompile kernels with the old ABI functionality as needed. I f= eel like we're all a little curious if anything still uses this, and making= this kind of change is probably the best way to find out. > In my opinion, if all goes well, it may be wise to remove the old code in= the next major version. Could do the full list, or just FreeBSD 4 and 5 co= mpatibility, for instance. Barring notable negative feedback, of course. > There were some concerns about Rust, but it sounds like it uses (or used?= ) FreeBSD 10.X features, which this patch does not remove. On that topic: h= ttps://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/89058 > Long term, it might be a good idea to enable support for EOL-1, and maybe= remove code for EOL-2, of course a less aggressive policy is also possible= (EOL-2 and EOL-3?). Getting out of the single digit FreeBSD versions shoul= d be a good start, though! > Appreciate any feedback on this and hopefully we can reach some kind of c= onsensus on how to proceed in 2024. > Thank you! > -Henrich One question: What are the benefits? Having a clear list of pros and cons would result in more conscious decisio= n :-) Just to make sure - you are talking about changing the defaults in GENERIC not removing the code? Because this part "it may be wise to remove the old code in the next major version" sounds terrifying. There was an idea recently to remove old audio card drivers.. I am sure that made retro folks happy ;-) There are still binary packages out there built on older FreeBSD releases that would not work after that change (i.e. AnyDesk client was built on 11.2 and works fine on 13 and 14). All those packages will stop working. Version References: required from libgcc_s.so.1: 0x0b792650 0x00 10 GCC_3.0 required from libthr.so.3: 0x077a28b0 0x00 08 FBSD_1.0 required from librt.so.1: 0x077a28b0 0x00 07 FBSD_1.0 required from libcxxrt.so.1: 0x08922974 0x00 11 GLIBCXX_3.4 0x056bafd3 0x00 05 CXXABI_1.3 required from libm.so.5: 0x077a28b0 0x00 04 FBSD_1.0 required from libc.so.7: 0x077a28b1 0x00 09 FBSD_1.1 0x077a28b3 0x00 06 FBSD_1.3 0x077a28b0 0x00 03 FBSD_1.0 0x077a28b2 0x00 02 FBSD_1.2 Also I think that instead adhering to modern trends with a lifespan shorter than yogurt focus on functionality and self-compatiblity should be (as always was in FreeBSD). Instead removing perfectly working code maybe the current code could be fixed/improved in the first place? I have upgraded to 14.0 and my desktop is highly unreliable [1]. 14.1 is about to be rolled out.. does it fix the LinuxKPI / DRM problem? Will 15 or 16 have non-problematic LinuxKPI / DRM? NO. Because we adhered to constantly moving target with no solid foundations of the Linux world. With no fallback alternative (scfb only provides basic single monitor workstation with no multi-screen + rotation). So I will soon have to roll back to 13. And today I hear another great idea to remove backward compatibility wow what a wonderful world :D Long story short: I think this is a really bad idea to remove backward and self compatibility. I avoid Linux exactly for that reason. Have a good day :-) Tomek [1] https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D276985 ps/2: I think questions list could provide broader audience :-) -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From nobody Sat May 11 11:38:35 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Vc3fy204jz5JyMB for ; Sat, 11 May 2024 11:38:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-yw1-x112d.google.com (mail-yw1-x112d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::112d]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Vc3fx73fKz4dDp for ; Sat, 11 May 2024 11:38:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-yw1-x112d.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-620314aa1d7so30940227b3.2 for ; Sat, 11 May 2024 04:38:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; t=1715427528; x=1716032328; darn=freebsd.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=sS2eW+tTVtxabBZ/pavSGwK+ik+GorMxiGXOzAYVbrE=; b=acTAUfn58/W/PUNsnptGsEqQhdmmJF2I76Ar3qa3kTBHK3Kc9+vDLNYJf+lDuW1aGQ RkXNqfXZ3PpriMBUcNDIW6ZBp856CbAJZTjHx5BnZlr51b3hDjYuLGFIKdtBzgRR/uG+ HgfI7V/CoPrXZbobOecvBkUQlIYcuVHEp3AGrGQOtlqlKZEOOtLBPOLoy3Rv2qHtCrTw VYD1gpXBO7HB5o9EfBgXt8jLYV+H0TFkSjR/wm+OAbomBaz/cCpJOfIyDC96dE79CbZ4 ykx+kg9Vm920QimfxBfvAfXb1TkG+J6oHDZpoEIRYXmwEtodogg9k4qA4mI7bxd2Ocro 0qTw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1715427528; x=1716032328; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=sS2eW+tTVtxabBZ/pavSGwK+ik+GorMxiGXOzAYVbrE=; b=dlTBZuq/ZgyCbggktCyZMRMLd0KwKUbe0r6VRS9NQCqXdcK4fX80fwgWFpfYWr1kzV O7AaqnANvkPtJUDQVTvPKk1biiz4SKpdnsVKTxFDshyxnYJ45JJwBkCerFPFVKYog0OA g6flZEWd+D1BgPusvHIfYuuREhFJXc268EbnsF83TPDXRzj0BR4bzLiVrwWpa5TnUodR kxHz+CAXghEIAEcBIhXiBTCxrdiu8jFDrmUAOuH+BXYSWp+55wWsG/66kzvnQMUKtSIV R5L7AYl2TnSsN0/43Z+2rVK8/vG5dj65ZvMESl4B4IKJ9NcUsc4L/wYzXf1XmdhOshCa i2Sg== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCXsDiTzR5S6tl9BNQaYpPzuhD8ewCuTvV2YHDPVtsArIWfzH+SWIy/bSlrGAK1eRXCKQyWO3uY11EgqGbC+HDxUnmE5A/5R7mk= X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzAtpkW1RFc0yOb8TstQ0t9Ze341mt1lGyhNUfLvF8TSEY1KgKA 4bgxXgK6xGGRMGLbplR0sb+imhkQIpwZA/9k7hyDfLIhhIwk/WwZy5VPpkMJMjpR92+2e9nbzGo = X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IE163usKtBosvHB+YI8e/bsLhGaCsNqm3eZLUeFFRi40jPaY5nejTSBM7/OY1bF7oG1Mz+XJQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:4:b0:61b:1c75:406c with SMTP id 00721157ae682-622aff920d7mr60670117b3.8.1715427527903; Sat, 11 May 2024 04:38:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw1-f170.google.com (mail-yw1-f170.google.com. [209.85.128.170]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 00721157ae682-6209e346ee8sm11808277b3.77.2024.05.11.04.38.47 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 11 May 2024 04:38:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw1-f170.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-620390308e5so25952477b3.3 for ; Sat, 11 May 2024 04:38:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCXK8Vi9q0uxn/bR9bAkMg2ewXLHvihV+07uZ+vWzErjrD2Mzl+mYUXF0+q06RD293mPjphwNYPgC+ODfSE7SOAVxDmpK46J85s= X-Received: by 2002:a81:b28a:0:b0:61b:c89:1e73 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-622b01384b9mr47047557b3.45.1715427527064; Sat, 11 May 2024 04:38:47 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Tomek CEDRO Date: Sat, 11 May 2024 13:38:35 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Disabling COMPAT_FREEBSD4/5/6/7/9 in default kernel configurations To: Konstantin Belousov Cc: henrichhartzer@tuta.io, Freebsd Arch Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Vc3fx73fKz4dDp On Sat, May 11, 2024 at 11:19=E2=80=AFAM Konstantin Belousov wrote: > On Sat, May 11, 2024 at 01:38:38AM +0200, henrichhartzer@tuta.io wrote: > > In my opinion, if all goes well, it may be wise to remove the old code = in the next major version. Could do the full list, or just FreeBSD 4 and 5 = compatibility, for instance. Barring notable negative feedback, of course. > > Strongly disagree. You are breaking ABI compat for users, for what gain? Exactly. 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[209.85.219.176]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 3f1490d57ef6-debd37438e4sm1198584276.27.2024.05.11.05.16.54 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 11 May 2024 05:16:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-f176.google.com with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-dc236729a2bso2896720276.0 for ; Sat, 11 May 2024 05:16:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a25:aab3:0:b0:dee:4c11:9838 with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-dee4f35fe27mr5847764276.44.1715429813973; Sat, 11 May 2024 05:16:53 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20240511071711.0c730e63@zeta.dino.sk> <95d7c51b7fa6e41dd657fa411455d6b9@Leidinger.net> In-Reply-To: <95d7c51b7fa6e41dd657fa411455d6b9@Leidinger.net> From: Tomek CEDRO Date: Sat, 11 May 2024 14:16:42 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Disabling COMPAT_FREEBSD4/5/6/7/9 in default kernel configurations To: Alexander Leidinger Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Vc4Vw2mjJz4h1d On Sat, May 11, 2024 at 10:40=E2=80=AFAM Alexander Leidinger wrote: > We're proud of our backwards compatibility. I remember that a committer > reported proudly that they are able to run FreeBSD 1.0 in a jail (even > if it was just for fun and not for productive stuff), and the generic > feedback was in favour of this. > > Simply removing this compatibility seems a step backwards in this regard > IMO. If COMPAT* is loadable, I would directly agree to remove the > support from the GENERIC kernel, but without being able to load this > kind of support, people are not able to simply update a system and maybe > have some old unmaintained legacy software in an old jail. This does not apply only for legacy software but also modern binary only releases (i.e. AnyDesk). Knowing how eager folks out there are to support FreeBSD all builds made on older releases will stop working and we will not have anything new. I may be wrong but function can be compiled into kernel or as module but it must be part of configuration? If its not there then its not there. New configuration and kernel needs to be built to have extra functionality. You cannot copy-paste a module from different kernel and run it on a different kernel (even of the same release)? Am I wrong? :-) Generic means most universal and versatile for everyone. Milan has mentioned in previous reply that he uses minimal kernel configuration. Some security setups for sure will remove all unwanted features. But then this is a Custom setup not the Generic one :-) It's not that I am against new features, I am just tired of enforced changes and history rewrite.. this Marxism results in nothing really working when you need it most ;-) Today when the time is most precious we really need new stuff that works while not destroying anything that still works. -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From nobody Sat May 11 14:01:05 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Vc6qP4zvdz5KBHg for ; Sat, 11 May 2024 14:01:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-ej1-x62a.google.com (mail-ej1-x62a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::62a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Vc6qP3Bm1z4sH4 for ; Sat, 11 May 2024 14:01:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-ej1-x62a.google.com with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-a59b49162aeso718825166b.3 for ; Sat, 11 May 2024 07:01:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1715436079; x=1716040879; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=wkz3Z57Qe2H1LUZ06foVt+QCFwKOd6RzS+j192ggwgg=; b=ustR/6FzNJtXTYZanJ9JJG0qNNTh12ZO012/fJMqP7D/iz9ckfZtQXtjus+eS47cYu MIqE3uMW2XlUq4BdyFMYpn2N0fZFoZScRhFO6OJsbgP3OqM7hcuadZ/Nr4AiKJ6yH3yw ubmHnx2eUcKId0yO6zM0aPArZq0yfYGrnXJbZcwkpBye7nSCAUbEiFAOdY1490Ip1pHr +Pf8UTxoDtVXZXFoLF+l9KGux98ALPf3CiJ+Dr7MTaVvVwEQ0VOyIK6xA8Gzu7eG2/vU D3bdvP0pu3oBWXZ7h0panjgrHoK8KYqZteB0bRZbWN7vbQsDefM71/Ru8mppy+SOj4g+ dgXg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1715436079; x=1716040879; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=wkz3Z57Qe2H1LUZ06foVt+QCFwKOd6RzS+j192ggwgg=; b=DjDMf0qtdtgxC8wKMDbzfRGdZGDFFKouYoe9bo6N6vCA+ADq2bzjjAaU2lm6qqn9OO UvWvYr8QU8hvzn/fu+hjE1RO1mx/yQGcCO6TM9kx1H4EDu/VpmhW11U28wmHpExd++hB gQKgwwzX8IQONX0WAT8IiphHFwVjNfSA1b+mao5OxcjxJ4tOg7uw8g952iUxNLcFBfKa kyeoErGoYm6Dmhay+kaeJgWsoKYujWAiIO2UO6tquQBI/+zg+rjjJIMYpSPMY9hgppQs Vpzm9JIuolnxlujE9VI6xHHZzLwrqDwUEEQvtSc+iJ3e3dOgQvoXQpklJgbAfgSM3TJd KPPw== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCWjWXTsmEdRJFeXqhm48MegfIrespUUP1ajmEjCwMwwML9Z3tgv6z7xpE4WRllp4J9Kmw7+HSffuTmKPV0+1/1xl51CnmPDztg= X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Ywa76gecuPG3ZmKFZxO/bVVWkBvamqA8u7Ybuh6M8yIVg8jZnpk Va9t4v4ExWI4I/eheBGdClB7psx4jlGVZkIcGFdXFlTPaVRcDnUJkIrfVqLk4GQd1Jglhlso10y c9+f2NJEqbWyjVMwxNanBHmsxJqLnZLWb9gMXdQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEzDZgTuqKxhmc2+uaGWIHwOZA9j+CDK0dLZskjJz89NvO5A55WP6er1ZbqrwNWcNGsu2Kdm4S/xTyBrPPff7I= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:3412:b0:a5a:1b61:d94d with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-a5a2d536966mr368651066b.3.1715436078827; Sat, 11 May 2024 07:01:18 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Sat, 11 May 2024 08:01:05 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Disabling COMPAT_FREEBSD4/5/6/7/9 in default kernel configurations To: Konstantin Belousov Cc: henrichhartzer@tuta.io, Freebsd Arch Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001d259306182e1631" X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Vc6qP3Bm1z4sH4 --0000000000001d259306182e1631 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, May 11, 2024, 3:19=E2=80=AFAM Konstantin Belousov wrote: > On Sat, May 11, 2024 at 01:38:38AM +0200, henrichhartzer@tuta.io wrote: > > In my opinion, if all goes well, it may be wise to remove the old code > in the next major version. Could do the full list, or just FreeBSD 4 and = 5 > compatibility, for instance. Barring notable negative feedback, of course= . > > Strongly disagree. You are breaking ABI compat for users, for what gain? > > I do not care about disabling options in GENERIC (but then they must appe= ar > in LINT). > This sums up my view as well. Fine to not be in GENERIC, but removal is a bridge too far. Warner > --0000000000001d259306182e1631 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sat, May 11, 2024, 3:19=E2=80=AFAM Konstantin Belou= sov <kostikbel@gmail.com> = wrote:
On Sat, May 11, 2024 at 01:3= 8:38AM +0200, henrichhartzer@tuta.io wrote:
> In my opinion, if all goes well, it may be wise to remove the old code= in the next major version. Could do the full list, or just FreeBSD 4 and 5= compatibility, for instance. Barring notable negative feedback, of course.=

Strongly disagree.=C2=A0 You are breaking ABI compat for users, for what ga= in?

I do not care about disabling options in GENERIC (but then they must appear=
in LINT).


This sums up my view as well. Fine to= not be in GENERIC, but removal is a bridge too far.

Warner
--0000000000001d259306182e1631-- From nobody Sat May 11 14:26:43 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Vc7Nm0CmRz5KCvc for ; Sat, 11 May 2024 14:26:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from concussious@runbox.com) Received: from mailtransmit05.runbox.com (mailtransmit05.runbox.com [IPv6:2a0c:5a00:149::26]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Vc7Nl1YDKz3x93 for ; Sat, 11 May 2024 14:26:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from concussious@runbox.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=runbox.com header.s=selector2 header.b=orRb7YA2; dmarc=pass (policy=quarantine) header.from=runbox.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of concussious@runbox.com designates 2a0c:5a00:149::26 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=concussious@runbox.com Received: from mailtransmit02.runbox ([10.9.9.162] helo=aibo.runbox.com) by mailtransmit05.runbox.com with esmtps (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1s5ngR-007EpC-Oi for freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org; Sat, 11 May 2024 16:26:43 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=runbox.com; s=selector2; h=Message-Id:Date:Subject:To:From:MIME-Version: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type; bh=aAIcsUcJ62z8PwukRJgn5HgjwdhBzdwSvJAyuk628JE=; b=orRb7YA2XTTmdgcd7bh8tawjEk +ea6IcEgrAcFG2sJxQ7yqWg2QG3pWU1xHOmk9kNoxGNwLNLOfQCW5RPmQtU1NlknDi2DHAgneIHkz sFWGfMmwbPI0whHLB7vM9Sg3rNwZZB0s2MoBxTHjod7eLjcrKk5p48MhNv/dzqSOMcCt/Rc332vit XAtQy0D6fKUBwYEdE+VBMSWtYD+vycwF78hG/MSy6MLU+7PxpC4MFqNWjb5CaaHYC3XbOi7X3KFKd 5x60xEQOfunDqDsHzwg6I8WDz0CmJU0dtrou2gjeGr0STwUBPFGDxzyIXR8ikY17BmP82bPPoTcf2 WVOo4i/g==; Received: from [10.9.9.129] (helo=rmmprod07.runbox) by mailtransmit02.runbox with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1s5ngR-0003bx-EI for freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org; Sat, 11 May 2024 16:26:43 +0200 Received: from mail by rmmprod07.runbox with local (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1s5ngR-0007kc-DC for freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org; Sat, 11 May 2024 16:26:43 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from [Authenticated alias (960610)] by runbox.com with http (RMM6); for ; Sat, 11 May 2024 14:26:43 GMT From: "Alexander Ziaee" To: "freebsd-arch" Subject: Re: Disabling COMPAT_FREEBSD4/5/6/7/9 in default kernel configurations Date: Sat, 11 May 2024 14:26:43 +0000 (UTC) X-RMM-Aliasid: 960610 X-Mailer: RMM6 Message-Id: X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.80 / 15.00]; FAKE_REPLY(1.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[runbox.com:dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.70)[-0.697]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[runbox.com,quarantine]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[runbox.com:s=selector2]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a0c:5a00:149::26]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[2a0c:5a00:149::26:from]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[runbox.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[runbox.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:50304, ipnet:2a0c:5a00::/29, country:NO]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-arch@freebsd.org]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[runbox.com:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Vc7Nl1YDKz3x93 Hello, wrote: >> disabling COMPAT_FREEBSD4/5/6/7/9 (in GENERIC) Please, this is the heart and soul of freebsd. Those lines in GENERIC are a symbol of hope (yes I am absolutely serious) t= hat human beings are still grounded enough to plan and make sacrifices and = to think thoughtfully. It represents an uninterrupted chain of compatibilit= y since before I was even born. Breaking compat is clearly against the spirit of the original rules. Please= not now, please, please, not a tentative date of FreeBSD 127-RELEASE. The alternative of rewriting them to be loadable is clearly acceptable to e= veryone, but no one is proposing doing that and we have literal grandmaster= s that designed and built the blocks of the internet calling it "hard". So = this is quite a horrifying conversation for no actionable proposal. The societal consequences to reducing the credibility of the Principle of L= east Astonishment underpinning the critical infrastructure of all humans ev= erywhere is incalculable. Small handfulls of very inteligent and slightly a= utistic children everywhere in the world will become distressed, seriously. People come here because of stability and consistency. We need to keep attr= acting them on that basis. Humanity, seriously, needs us to keep attracting= them on that basis. Please dont turn off compat in GENERIC until someone rewrites it to be a lo= adable module, or reveals that it's critically broken somehow. This is real= ly a very serious issue to the heart and soul of this project, and honestly= this made me cry. Respectfully, Alex= From nobody Sat May 11 18:08:16 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4VcDJT5Wy5z5KXHY for ; Sat, 11 May 2024 18:08:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Received: from www121.sakura.ne.jp (www121.sakura.ne.jp [153.125.133.21]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4VcDJQ22rGz4Kby for ; Sat, 11 May 2024 18:08:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp designates 153.125.133.21 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp Received: from kalamity.joker.local (123-1-21-232.area1b.commufa.jp [123.1.21.232]) (authenticated bits=0) by www121.sakura.ne.jp (8.17.1/8.17.1/[SAKURA-WEB]/20201212) with ESMTPA id 44BI8GRx017130 for ; Sun, 12 May 2024 03:08:17 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Date: Sun, 12 May 2024 03:08:16 +0900 From: Tomoaki AOKI To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Disabling COMPAT_FREEBSD4/5/6/7/9 in default kernel configurations Message-Id: <20240512030816.cb32d8b8afa036b9f1d67e4e@dec.sakura.ne.jp> In-Reply-To: References: Organization: Junchoon corps X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.33; amd64-portbld-freebsd14.0) List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.70 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.999]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:153.125.133.16/28]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.10)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7684, ipnet:153.125.128.0/18, country:JP]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-arch@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sakura.ne.jp]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-arch@freebsd.org]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4VcDJQ22rGz4Kby On Sat, 11 May 2024 14:26:43 +0000 (UTC) "Alexander Ziaee" wrote: > Hello, > > wrote: > >> disabling COMPAT_FREEBSD4/5/6/7/9 (in GENERIC) > > Please, this is the heart and soul of freebsd. > > Those lines in GENERIC are a symbol of hope (yes I am absolutely serious) that human beings are still grounded enough to plan and make sacrifices and to think thoughtfully. It represents an uninterrupted chain of compatibility since before I was even born. > > Breaking compat is clearly against the spirit of the original rules. Please not now, please, please, not a tentative date of FreeBSD 127-RELEASE. > > The alternative of rewriting them to be loadable is clearly acceptable to everyone, but no one is proposing doing that and we have literal grandmasters that designed and built the blocks of the internet calling it "hard". So this is quite a horrifying conversation for no actionable proposal. And the (hopefully upcoming, but mandatory BEFORE disabling in GENERIC) kernel module SHALL BE AUTOMATICALLY AND SANELY LOADED when the old non-default ABI is used. It SHALL be unvisible and just 100% assured to work for old-ABI binaries (including in-the-wild ones, not in ports collection ones). > The societal consequences to reducing the credibility of the Principle of Least Astonishment underpinning the critical infrastructure of all humans everywhere is incalculable. Small handfulls of very inteligent and slightly autistic children everywhere in the world will become distressed, seriously. > > People come here because of stability and consistency. We need to keep attracting them on that basis. Humanity, seriously, needs us to keep attracting them on that basis. > > Please dont turn off compat in GENERIC until someone rewrites it to be a loadable module, or reveals that it's critically broken somehow. This is really a very serious issue to the heart and soul of this project, and honestly this made me cry. +1. > Respectfully, > Alex -- Tomoaki AOKI From nobody Sat May 11 23:03:11 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4VcLrf2N6qz5JVls for ; Sat, 11 May 2024 23:03:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4VcLrf1kcWz4lhk; Sat, 11 May 2024 23:03:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1715468594; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=gb3tS1sggP/UYe5VFn5eAVsnrZlnabx1BSCir9vvAOk=; b=pTPA3XbJLPmijMCWhQLuk4NvySg2MyjVbgPyccinbp+uzyKCzY4AG4K9MoKGQJBL1EAM8I GhEnL8SwpV6s1odyBDOuHs32GN9MfsiQ/Z1A3iZSZxt2opFq3Mt/NIGAgHveDooe9ukMag kekuvQ+f/il6VCSAiA5zRfQJoEojVZuEjrXNNYb4bL95rquHmpkAm4s9wYDd1uuSSMoI15 unAirFPIcI0yydyK4WuKOH7rK3N5rKHOUbd+j7Am1lUcPlMyWljwkrxe2lU151rVBg1o3t BI+pqxa3qwKqUtpwa2jURNUjB3rWcCq65ukOCsGflFwE3wDeXSdvRqXmG/7wsA== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1715468594; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=xPNNsFrNeFPYsFDoR17fyf3WinYOZTYdUQzjK9Iz9iBYPmhaK3QLhR29/f72V1kockS7U0 8uaF6x7VB6IVV6NjKuHliA4cyb26slncFfOUBbk+Q8zWURIGrzQLxgeL0xcOX+WPTmqZsK X0OeQIkwy+A/TMffeomog3dPSqn9HnrGVmntaFF+8sGGGxVcBuvRoAp5GIvUZSnnUPak1w sYFeb4YXRp1+Mm7C096IQh2l1EObxP6m0RC2dI11xbUGAQcptHaQlmA80U+AHb3AGwgMoL 0kN+o2Xq+iMXGKwbkxwp5NSq9Bk9/fwkLFVhvlPEIrJwRT9f+NvTvSvlvf66/g== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1715468594; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=gb3tS1sggP/UYe5VFn5eAVsnrZlnabx1BSCir9vvAOk=; b=kPXPljMbfwJxnkeLCa0CXJiWLc4Tea5+OaOUwxdAd+xKoduJZPJSYUy8LjwezNPq1NlQXX MxnflcC7t7opkNCJruYVY1qE4vQmCCG7tXE533xaEExsQbanvtJrGv7kaMBv/HOZH/V4pi ki0oPnfC0JyfoqJYUTRkXHj8Md+ge8vNQWlVyYj+nheoY7VXkgV+J9imc/a+0+hdCr78U+ hwZ0a3d48OlQNfuWOPVbKNjVCCyfgeTfDVe7BSSaqDmWWHsxjkTfKYb9sWQDE7AGRKxnKf PuwBGWJIXVbS7ph2uBKCcewRzH3PuyI9D+bqN5pkf9GhvcbYz4jpc2Ng79TJuQ== Received: from ltc.des.dev (163.23.65.37.rev.sfr.net [37.65.23.163]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: des) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4VcLrf0k0fzRPw; Sat, 11 May 2024 23:03:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) Received: by ltc.des.dev (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C0DDE104F4; Sun, 12 May 2024 01:03:11 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Milan Obuch Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Disabling COMPAT_FREEBSD4/5/6/7/9 in default kernel configurations In-Reply-To: <20240511071711.0c730e63@zeta.dino.sk> (Milan Obuch's message of "Sat, 11 May 2024 07:17:11 +0200") References: <20240511071711.0c730e63@zeta.dino.sk> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Date: Sun, 12 May 2024 01:03:11 +0200 Message-ID: <86ttj4yms0.fsf@ltc.des.dev> List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Milan Obuch writes: > In general I think it is good move. In my kernel builds I am trying to > use minimal set of features (options, devices) and use loadable modules > whenever possible. Right, so you're either using MINIMAL or a custom kernel config and the presence of these options in GENERIC has absolutely zero impact on you. > I used to remove all COMPAT_FREEBSDn options, now I am keeping 11 and > up - in my notes rust is being listed, but I think some jdk (or needed > bootstrap) required some compatibility, too. So maybe removing COMPAT options wasn't such a good idea after all? > Idea of COMPAT_FREEBSDn being converted into loadable module mentioned > in some reply is nice, I don't know much in this area to have anything > more competent to say. This is not even remotely feasible. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@FreeBSD.org