From nobody Mon Jan 15 02:10:27 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TCwbB3DMYz57K03 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 2024 02:10:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from leres@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TCwbB2jQWz4tdj; Mon, 15 Jan 2024 02:10:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from leres@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1705284630; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=wQ3MnhRKvEjBgy92UfzTFtlmsphD5VAzyD3jLpYk1BI=; b=S6TlAT3KKrfQuUj3xiAsZ8ijMVBqjc3iVCZAAdPZsxP9ejyO4kQuCEwsOGtXO6aoFsRmMQ 5opMryGCu8k0CcKqz2SVe8rDmH0MCKQ7U0hR3gIs3OeoI9apX0elxc8a76KlYAI7zyd9T8 tbmt+k048r6bEAWQ+EjmPsgi/G0opZegtkRiQQZPYuT3sA3eEifqynmhcL05ll0lK231oD 2TMYgBgN/GlS2vMvwE+ygiuXvQ0D7QWlAGnq/bvCot/b/NmLnESn1PJX8TMTSYLAAJUDTR uD/eUgByjMn3AYDQNw5DRL0jV+kNDfConIKgEZv4lUhKUgBNGi2sTsh4XNVq9g== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1705284630; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=wQ3MnhRKvEjBgy92UfzTFtlmsphD5VAzyD3jLpYk1BI=; b=KV1ptNz1k0B9HlgTtqoH+1ajYSP7fH+7kKNGa0z5YzRtJqM00yyHAKSMguO54fIGePxKBz 6dV2qePRemwQCr0y1DybKw+suG1wciUpu+bQT/9JnaSEo+0CtFdSM0RPS0/o9PNMJE9A6O LhP3Tl36pTZgTvhu2n0prObgzuee/6H7qx1+7KdVKWBSfdFToXxHswDpX3riqzHjlJ5l9P M3YqgL6qjynanizXyZyBt/96+j3dxi8sZ11pKdObYmz5tUXAPInKUVTARXP6vMzqiGyqzY bCzg75bB0TCxmD+CVRC32f6yOsX7QXVZY4ng0CNYEo4rdbQ8MAMQGB3RaRm6jQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1705284630; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=gx7J6jCl3ir8Y9+8hBSIJa5UlB4mVNonY4YbzDGoOeNilUn6BxkNZQ2+Nu8BL9mWVTAx3u fzKpwwm+f2xAy7meeDuqgWtjC3dVxXMAioIB9SmeHINmGvzYaOXz2gEM+eUNK+QzoPVJjs xEEEYdVxncvBNL7O1nBNNl29qDlO0Im+6uDE42pQGsSNmwBjh4wLR1czH3NnLJbF3U0mnl iZA9B6k2Sr0Hubth+gGaaFzOQ42GuZ+kBa+4DexDvzyiZ85iDg6DS1Ct1ufNlM1W9p5VTU bYGRIqEB0EbR7BQVoNdrin+TY6d0mruMJQUDUYH9sFfJosZ5qcFxZ+yECRPEXA== Received: from [IPV6:fd:1965::2] (unknown [IPv6:2600:1700:ab1b:6800:2e0:edff:fece:8f27]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: leres) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4TCwb96N90z1Gm7; Mon, 15 Jan 2024 02:10:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from leres@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <0fb25c17-c737-4bc6-966c-6a03d0a41669@freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2024 18:10:27 -0800 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: poudriere 3.4.0 regression: -i runs as NON_ROOT user Content-Language: en-US To: Tomoaki AOKI Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <0b1ea9f1-4ed6-42c9-af21-844da9fb5c63@freebsd.org> <20240115070717.90a337c666aaa86003e7c231@dec.sakura.ne.jp> From: Craig Leres In-Reply-To: <20240115070717.90a337c666aaa86003e7c231@dec.sakura.ne.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/14/24 14:07, Tomoaki AOKI wrote: > IIRC, poudriere[-devel] ran as nobody (65534) initially, but it started > running as root (0) when I started using ccache. Interesting. It's starting to sound to me as if there's just one bug; poudriere is not passing the correct value for UID to make. I commented out CCACHE_DIR in my poudriere.conf and indeed things run as user nobody. But looking at the build log I see UID is set to 0 in the environment. And I don't understand how poudriere does this ("ps e" doesn't show UID in the environment of any jail process). Craig ---Begin Environment--- SHELL=/bin/csh [...] UID=0 [...] From nobody Mon Jan 15 04:11:02 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TCzGb1dhsz57Z6F for ; Mon, 15 Jan 2024 04:11:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marklmi@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic307-8.consmr.mail.gq1.yahoo.com (sonic307-8.consmr.mail.gq1.yahoo.com [98.137.64.32]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TCzGY6z5qz4GQt for ; Mon, 15 Jan 2024 04:11:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marklmi@yahoo.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=yahoo.com header.s=s2048 header.b=ECmMmsyx; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=yahoo.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of marklmi@yahoo.com designates 98.137.64.32 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=marklmi@yahoo.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1705291875; bh=E8x2VRgW9nVcg4hK/WmvlSEfKy4svsfOUkVuYU0Tscc=; h=From:Subject:Date:To:References:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=ECmMmsyxyl7l63ILldDZNRRR31kTPngfLgTAQHtZkYoNHGe3O60T6qiA9mDVF0MJ16Nx/BaWbq2Mov2mFAKTnyMwUwbpPO4hSTiUOJRaE1SfwKIaS5M0oqMK4W61EgP7RzMtpxa7jgpfQ7ivs/+hIccU4KzSijI5wwiNP9X6/bdxfd/GKlWpgy/Vanz4ykfrVsZyKEmn3vzd/JqTS21GTM5JZg/vff9xM26Cx/2sLxmOwiwi/V8QneSHXk1EgW11sWOA/RD2oonQld753rNyKUxZ3xB3f7CGOIF0UamV2w5gWt5m6g6khyAro/l/R5/Ln62s8TLwXOqupA/AWw7Epg== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1705291875; bh=yMW5cG3iCUlGDwyJU4QKEAcQB4Rm/d0Xd39vlRA1wWL=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:Subject:Date:To:From:Subject; b=Y9Efo8PjoQrDFUw2XTZOOibigavqXaqEYQchz68/5NhwTmvceaeT80UKH08u3Kycb2FwRl1TF6lqp/POilW3SVBZ7IRqqFzPFN4wjabB2xtsl585mCva0Ye3EDBquX04BQYvexsD9P5RMwrMo2HprdqfZojA2973R+y5/lN3yg/uE73N8pviXrgTAWPMr4sYO1c5yAe9ICLpcEAd7o445AId03DrA/LJQQ04ARTG2QuyzfklQIQgU/+0Qr6pfdp+IsGIw4ecAXIi+vbm9V+J9AEF5mWz310Uk3u26sXRNjDTA+3hj6L398LTVF5xZ/rB0HqmwWi0Cs+OwPsB6Bl6Ag== X-YMail-OSG: 3tMuD2kVM1n7IiFbF5goXO1t28pCGxBG_jCrzzWMtpZLe9fpd4aZu2J8n3ZHb7x .ptw5kdbdd2WjYhQQjM7U1YvjC04I4zFeMnrmXWFhpjL.YYRoMCdBL4JkQnmBMYa.unvDNtJT8.y MZUfPuO6Cu4UQPCg2_OYbfqnxJC4P_FYhhMPifJwv0kijKcuq5MlC2MeKGNmcfzrpsMW7X2KngGg veJsXNfCrdPG2j7RQc.7zTWN7ew3dLWzn0ckySgGLkm7lHjuvVgslUdFVqWouea3md_SdwTvXHdc NYdLYlL_aVPBIbYxEiqZDn1j_LhzFWXQBDBdfuSkaz_JTZHKR9C5xBHPK4MX.GAdfhdQDXiedNRV UiPBiJn6yiHYynh2WPde1fa4TOZW7S7fClc.ZEKEosU.1avV1bw9bvtIDlBTy2Z9y15qGQg6_pcy a6XyEsW.VWJ3HlIKE8M2q94YwcdmbvgPThxz7arLfeFLkUAu0e0khF6D6dqzNNWBPq_.TnTfvDGr vbYyWz.pAiHpoc8BiOzfTcNsgnhMB.FR9obDJCTDuMZhwUe41lxzDx3ejugjYlNrVhUieWu4MXsS RfzNlWs2S8AFJJJn1XsySxMLt5eqj_jQit26BnWBjddACQNMI3DeXwfxvrHsgf_SecsEEDqtxbwg pSEDTyEdVpd_4vGiJhwsWilbDvSy1Eq2BzR_O_czcPygBVonbfExFOHr9UMpSzBO5Jf9bnPfv8yJ sw4zXCTysXzATfNHFKhzIqqUt969XHNU.Q.482Rk5eK_.jsdV47V89w6EoYlHJ73i82e1Boqrqc4 33WbG9XejDH78CyqoZ1RBmQ7lEJ7wU9PqMyBFujcPHGXWzRyrDycd_mmfdIfWsbhK6YfMuWoWeEx iW64P3kbydqVCecdMy_52LJjXRHNx1Oaq6BE5EbICW3wE4k6tIJSo_TLlma579Le9PkRqp6OExsP Y79AWtPzO6g1aX8lKD1PJ.AFP946yFnPzVumzOysGC0FfyG5WsoF754nR0sqmWzCn68hEC3f8EiF K_AlHN49FPPAGZpRxWF9PUiY6hyUbKNEoJtjGka6yUthO6qONSJU0Te0hgk1zet8fMpJHZxhLvfW TL5cwooqpJAAwOiDSqD3iPPVu.FZrnxaHKpnUtrpImSA9VVPxgJvPUToeSry0HPufT9wrD_OMqCp wZZUA9Li.GxQAZyCIoJED2We6FvjtbFy8_LIVAPf9Uw8HckP5AyuAHZ9UInZ.Z8GnHCqdqnpWqh3 NKvG1gfF8BTA0oKPCBqOoUZxe0MDcTQPpS7d7pjKi6APqp5ju9mdmlTJJj8_CkVbjD.gn7nLOErx .adrs8awfJth6YdUGbWPo0mne.OShKek0u9PHcx4axiZTXcVj6GqA.BVkLxOSNqXb5q.XLxRiN8X cmNGsGdoKQpM8EUFlflPKYWJ_7.xsJWaOKZ24H09cWwUmrRqJ3xlyAl4.KqKB3UA5uG5wsbosLLf WXmfL0SyzVgmaRZL1X5s.rgjHupivylEM00gQ6_arxgTvIE9DH.TBJEkopGLlU7ubitevcJ3TrnD tELB.MfGkVDe.gYGxl.ZIqCTvrgQ8CwnC0VcuOvcwRfTIHiXGBJTsHLMJuRwxp_G9THXdw7AFhUb lQ9cA0u8jKpkV27ZNXOFmCa2DyD5Fiap7Oxknj4tBDCndK0V7zjBemn49qN5lu3hYkawO41bASEZ Zk_eQrOSIM4eDbVHAo1d7siInUkprD1ZK9nnTr_3g3Ogupvd7vuD8MMRiC0sCWZRTay9j99wU22B 6ZArkc6ppqQIfk3asL4n7b0Qzo.XSyP15A68tPgwc1UJ7UYtKRBO1eJn.uJhy6qZl2FiCMjFxCSo d4e3yPF7vz6Fo7dj7hXCLjQ_o8wCi93cg9pE_T06g44Ni0AuigPs5l01klYcYO61l8btjWM3z.BR kLOemjL1Z1UZzuhPfaj7jKsmFqgs_Z5pZfXXJkusEw_7Q6PIHR4c0i6xjlo4G4IQaJP4x1OB_ueP jV7QZ5C5iSfD0h1ttx0FquPV5UqD30gamvSjovt8JuBoVqUHeYehBB_MoHB_M6uquwDo81U5GBb4 ZJjVCtDhyTGghD.xSfVBynqlrhZNWVxduqHen_fKQq4y9GI5dX7iaobxghXOzsbvvSQhEwX2BbbN 03iN4sniRGrFFn9d_orPgPnD2wqP7Pp5iJ74nnH.Pno0RSm8sryb2qoPW9_ZCndwVjCjQY1R8kp5 _6C9fIIA8Y6256QAg31cCwU4IHuZCViMQ568XIZohs63bBB1uN5ouSpAC3.ml1W1.y1DNp06N1A- - X-Sonic-MF: X-Sonic-ID: 44561aeb-89b3-459a-818a-98dfb1cb5982 Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic307.consmr.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 15 Jan 2024 04:11:15 +0000 Received: by hermes--production-gq1-78d49cd6df-wz9pk (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 5e426d026906b7d913988b25a37308dd; Mon, 15 Jan 2024 04:11:13 +0000 (UTC) From: Mark Millard Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3774.300.61.1.2\)) Subject: Re: poudriere 3.4.0 regression: -i runs as NON_ROOT user Message-Id: <6376FF7E-6F3B-4558-94D0-4F5A4C82B916@yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2024 20:11:02 -0800 To: leres@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Hackers X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3774.300.61.1.2) References: <6376FF7E-6F3B-4558-94D0-4F5A4C82B916.ref@yahoo.com> X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.50 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.999]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com:dkim]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36647, ipnet:98.137.64.0/20, country:US]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[98.137.64.32:from]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[98.137.64.32:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4TCzGY6z5qz4GQt Craig Leres wrote on Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2024 02:10:27 UTC : > On 1/14/24 14:07, Tomoaki AOKI wrote: > > IIRC, poudriere[-devel] ran as nobody (65534) initially, but it = started > > running as root (0) when I started using ccache. >=20 > Interesting. It's starting to sound to me as if there's just one bug;=20= > poudriere is not passing the correct value for UID to make. >=20 > I commented out CCACHE_DIR in my poudriere.conf and indeed things run = as=20 > user nobody. But looking at the build log I see UID is set to 0 in the=20= > environment. And I don't understand how poudriere does this ("ps e"=20 > doesn't show UID in the environment of any jail process). Looking in /usr/local/etc/poudriere.conf.sample I see: # Define to yes to build and stage as a regular user # Default: yes, unless CCACHE_DIR is set and CCACHE_DIR_NON_ROOT_SAFE is = not # set. Note that to use ccache with BUILD_AS_NON_ROOT you will need to # use a non-shared CCACHE_DIR that is only built by PORTBUILD_USER and = chowned # to that user. Then set CCACHE_DIR_NON_ROOT_SAFE to yes. #BUILD_AS_NON_ROOT=3Dno =3D=3D=3D Mark Millard marklmi at yahoo.com From nobody Mon Jan 15 04:54:05 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TD0DW0nhkz57f04 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 2024 04:54:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 6yearold@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ua1-f44.google.com (mail-ua1-f44.google.com [209.85.222.44]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TD0DV52nsz4N1K; Mon, 15 Jan 2024 04:54:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 6yearold@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-ua1-f44.google.com with SMTP id a1e0cc1a2514c-7d1921f440bso45289241.0; Sun, 14 Jan 2024 20:54:34 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1705294473; x=1705899273; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=sYKMvdqVRB6LgwzUL4Y3YgvsWCUfUKU5YGizpXomnLo=; b=IeD57z0gEnc7dPSikWabHTVVmsJvC1QkXssT277GzUhiRxwyutlnt1n9j5M3CPYInM 3Bf2FtTktsSn26PrCabsc4YOYELXxokO5PFRAJMLNLy8Oz8pNBgDLhOakxeHcfpPQSB5 b3BqpljgObxDG8kMQfxPt08Cizd6HPHS+Kmq2OFDe/f03SzLxDZegoIemA5Q24XyP5gy bthWeQmkCpzaJHI5TevJuEd+Rp9tEf/cnooxwYsD2M7RPFwrb3p0SZOCfYnc4GG1Q9Zx LW8l9+kt1lXLasOMVCP8AKMSDcyTGPufziBdPwm50sfv/yRnD5x2GH80bdMT5dnoYwmG g32A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxSw+/aRFKtzApDTUfgE2j/SxC6TFIyHDTZbiOmJi+eI0WIgywW W1WFvDE85/H2dhFqcC2qs8CMxZyGX78= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IF3u+FI/TT6EOlg+oQ9azjJJlBnXIVRPlXIpy1RSzGCiUnW5qXsWqXmIHB/+fQCuj4y4wdM+g== X-Received: by 2002:a67:c40c:0:b0:467:c80e:49d1 with SMTP id c12-20020a67c40c000000b00467c80e49d1mr2870257vsk.66.1705294472897; Sun, 14 Jan 2024 20:54:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ua1-f49.google.com (mail-ua1-f49.google.com. [209.85.222.49]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id dd2-20020a056102568200b00468360ec31bsm362326vsb.22.2024.01.14.20.54.32 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 14 Jan 2024 20:54:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ua1-f49.google.com with SMTP id a1e0cc1a2514c-7d1921f440bso45286241.0; Sun, 14 Jan 2024 20:54:32 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:a81:b0:469:4f36:ddd6 with SMTP id n1-20020a0561020a8100b004694f36ddd6mr687726vsg.26.1705294472469; Sun, 14 Jan 2024 20:54:32 -0800 (PST) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0b1ea9f1-4ed6-42c9-af21-844da9fb5c63@freebsd.org> <20240115070717.90a337c666aaa86003e7c231@dec.sakura.ne.jp> <0fb25c17-c737-4bc6-966c-6a03d0a41669@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <0fb25c17-c737-4bc6-966c-6a03d0a41669@freebsd.org> From: Gleb Popov Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2024 07:54:05 +0300 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: poudriere 3.4.0 regression: -i runs as NON_ROOT user To: Craig Leres Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4TD0DV52nsz4N1K X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US] On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 5:10=E2=80=AFAM Craig Leres wro= te: > > On 1/14/24 14:07, Tomoaki AOKI wrote: > > IIRC, poudriere[-devel] ran as nobody (65534) initially, but it started > > running as root (0) when I started using ccache. > > Interesting. It's starting to sound to me as if there's just one bug; > poudriere is not passing the correct value for UID to make. > > I commented out CCACHE_DIR in my poudriere.conf and indeed things run as > user nobody. Yes, this is documented in the config: https://github.com/freebsd/poudriere/blob/acde697efbe6f857c9b00bc90737dd2d9= 7c95ba5/src/etc/poudriere.conf.sample#L287 > But looking at the build log I see UID is set to 0 in the > environment. And I don't understand how poudriere does this ("ps e" > doesn't show UID in the environment of any jail process). > > Craig > > ---Begin Environment--- > SHELL=3D/bin/csh > [...] > UID=3D0 > [...] > "Begin Environment" is the environment that Poudriere itself was started in, the host one. Also note that when you do "testport -i" and get into the jail, you'll be given root even if nobody was used during building. 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I'm trying to install FreeBSD 14 natively on my ARM Chromebook model xe303c12 ; I've found only one tutorial that teaches how to do that,that's it : https://wiki.freebsd.org/arm/Chromebook The problem is that it ends with the installation of FreeBSD 11,that's very EOL. I can't use it as is. I need to upgrade it to 14 (but I'm on arm 32 bit,that's TIER-2,so I can't upgrade it automatically using the freebsd-update script. It is also true that I can't install 14 directly on that machine,as you can read below : [image: unnamed.png] I've looked all around and I found the tool pkgbase,that I'm talking about on the FreeBSD forum,to understand if it allows the 11 to be usable or upgradable. It does not seem to be the proper tool to achieve my goal. Do you have any suggestions that can help me ? Thanks. -- Mario. --000000000000be129c060efe1b19 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello to everyone.

I'm t= rying to install FreeBSD 14 natively on my ARM Chromebook model xe303c12 ; = I've found only one tutorial that teaches how to do that,that's it = :


Th= e problem is that it ends with the installation of FreeBSD 11,that's ve= ry EOL.
I can't use it as is. I need to upgrade it to 14 (but= I'm on arm 32 bit,that's TIER-2,so I can't upgrade it automati= cally using the freebsd-update script. It is also true that I can't ins= tall 14 directly on that machine,as you can read below :


3D"unnamed.png"

I've looked all= around and I found the tool pkgbase,that I'm talking about on the Free= BSD forum,to understand if it allows the 11 to be usable or upgradable. It = does not seem to be the proper tool to achieve my goal. Do you have any sug= gestions that can help me ? Thanks.

--
Mario.
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2002:a17:906:4482:b0:a28:fc03:c5d4 with SMTP id y2-20020a170906448200b00a28fc03c5d4mr2385326ejo.20.1705337240260; Mon, 15 Jan 2024 08:47:20 -0800 (PST) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Mario Marietto Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2024 17:46:43 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: How to upgrade an EOL FreeBSD release or how to make it working again To: John F Carr Cc: freebsd-arm , freebsd-hackers , FreeBSD Mailing List , "freebsd-xen@freebsd.org" , FreeBSD Current , Warner Losh , =?UTF-8?Q?Roger_Pau_Monn=C3=A9?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006d9686060efec4a3" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4TDJ301kplz40N2 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] --0000000000006d9686060efec4a3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The ARM Chromebook is based on armv7,it is still recent. But let's change perspective for a moment,don't think about the ARM Chromebook. My question is : how to upgrade FreeBSD when it goes EOL. I ask this because there is a huge difference here between FreeBSD and Linux. Today if you need to use , for example Ubuntu 14.0, you can use it as is. Yes,there will be a lot of bugs,but it will work without crashes. But if you want to use an old FreeBSD system,nothing will work for you. So,do you know some methods to install even packages or ports ? You know,there are cases when you need to do some experiments so that you can keep your machine off the internet,so you aren't scared that someone can compromise it. Totally prohibiting the users to use an old system,removing ports and packages is not a choice that I approve of. And I'm not the only one that thinks like this. On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 5:21=E2=80=AFPM John F Carr wrote: > Judging by a commit message BSD on the ARM Chromebook didn't work > when support was removed in 2019. > > >RK* Exynos* and Meson*/Odroid* don't even work with current > >source code, if someone wants to make them work again they > >better use the Linux DTS. > > https://cgit.freebsd.org/src/commit?id=3D9dfa2a54684978d1d6cef67bbf6242e8= 25801f18 > > I have one of the "snow" Chromebooks. The warnings in the web page > https://wiki.freebsd.org/arm/Chromebook led me not to try FreeBSD. > None of the many bugs seemed likely to ever be fixed. I'm not using it > so I could try an experiment, but fighting with u-boot is not how I want > to spend my days. Even the popular Raspberry Pi takes skill or luck. > > (So "build an arm6 world and copy X, Y, and Z to the DOS partition > on your USB drive" is the kind of advice I need to supplement the old > Chromebook wiki page.) > > There is at least a little value in getting it to work because the armv6 > code is bit rotting and will go away entirely unless people use it. > > John Carr > > > > On Jan 15, 2024, at 10:59, Mario Marietto > wrote: > > > > Hello to everyone. > > > > I'm trying to install FreeBSD 14 natively on my ARM Chromebook model > xe303c12 ; I've found only one tutorial that teaches how to do that,that'= s > it : > > > > https://wiki.freebsd.org/arm/Chromebook > > > > The problem is that it ends with the installation of FreeBSD 11,that's > very EOL. > > I can't use it as is. I need to upgrade it to 14 (but I'm on arm 32 > bit,that's TIER-2,so I can't upgrade it automatically using the > freebsd-update script. It is also true that I can't install 14 directly o= n > that machine,as you can read below : > > > > > > > > > > I've looked all around and I found the tool pkgbase,that I'm talking > about on the FreeBSD forum,to understand if it allows the 11 to be usable > or upgradable. It does not seem to be the proper tool to achieve my goal. > Do you have any suggestions that can help me ? Thanks. > > > > -- > > Mario. > > --=20 Mario. --0000000000006d9686060efec4a3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The ARM Chromebook is based on armv7,it is still recent. B= ut let's change perspective for a moment,don't think about the ARM = Chromebook. My question is : how to upgrade FreeBSD when it goes EOL. I ask= this because there is a huge difference here between FreeBSD and Linux. To= day if you need to use , for example Ubuntu 14.0, you can use it as is. Yes= ,there will be a lot of bugs,but it will work without crashes. But if you w= ant to use an old FreeBSD system,nothing will work for you. So,do you know = some methods to install even packages or ports ? You know,there are cases w= hen you need to do some experiments so that you can keep your machine off t= he internet,so you aren't scared that someone can compromise it. Totall= y prohibiting the users to use an old system,removing ports and packages is= not a choice that I approve of. And I'm not the only one that thinks l= ike this.

On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 5:21=E2=80=AFPM John F Carr <jfc@mit.edu> wrote:
Judging by a commit m= essage BSD on the ARM Chromebook didn't work
when support was removed in 2019.

>RK* Exynos* and Meson*/Odroid* don't even work with current
>source code, if someone wants to make them work again they
>better use the Linux DTS.
https://cgit.freebs= d.org/src/commit?id=3D9dfa2a54684978d1d6cef67bbf6242e825801f18

I have one of the "snow" Chromebooks.=C2=A0 The warnings in the w= eb page
https://wiki.freebsd.org/arm/Chromebook led me not to try= FreeBSD.
None of the many bugs seemed likely to ever be fixed.=C2=A0 I'm not usi= ng it
so I could try an experiment, but fighting with u-boot is not how I want to spend my days.=C2=A0 Even the popular Raspberry Pi takes skill or luck.<= br>
(So "build an arm6 world and copy X, Y, and Z to the DOS partition
on your USB drive" is the kind of advice I need to supplement the old<= br> Chromebook wiki page.)

There is at least a little value in getting it to work because the armv6 code is bit rotting and will go away entirely unless people use it.

John Carr


> On Jan 15, 2024, at 10:59, Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com> wrote: >
> Hello to everyone.
>
> I'm trying to install FreeBSD 14 natively on my ARM Chromebook mod= el xe303c12 ; I've found only one tutorial that teaches how to do that,= that's it :
>
> https://wiki.freebsd.org/arm/Chromebook
>
> The problem is that it ends with the installation of FreeBSD 11,that&#= 39;s very EOL.
> I can't use it as is. I need to upgrade it to 14 (but I'm on a= rm 32 bit,that's TIER-2,so I can't upgrade it automatically using t= he freebsd-update script. It is also true that I can't install 14 direc= tly on that machine,as you can read below :
>
>
> <unnamed.png>
>
> I've looked all around and I found the tool pkgbase,that I'm t= alking about on the FreeBSD forum,to understand if it allows the 11 to be u= sable or upgradable. It does not seem to be the proper tool to achieve my g= oal. Do you have any suggestions that can help me ? Thanks.
>
> --
> Mario.



--
Mario.
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Mon, 15 Jan 2024 11:59:19 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.9.0-alpha0-1374-gc37f3abe3d-fm-20240102.001-gc37f3abe List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <43875796-b619-47c4-874f-39090416b2ff@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <41A815DF-8F94-4B00-AEDF-D5E7456A0914@yahoo.com> References: <41A815DF-8F94-4B00-AEDF-D5E7456A0914@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2024 11:58:58 -0500 From: "Dan Langille" To: "Mark Millard" , "Philip Paeps" , "clusteradm@freebsd.org" Cc: "FreeBSD Hackers" Subject: Re: list of valid ABI combinations Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.19 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[langille.org,none]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:66.111.4.25]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[langille.org:s=fm3,messagingengine.com:s=fm3]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[66.111.4.25:from]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(-0.10)[66.111.4.25:from]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[yahoo.com,freebsd.org,FreeBSD.org]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[langille.org:+,messagingengine.com:+]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[dan]; ASN(0.00)[asn:19151, ipnet:66.111.4.0/24, country:US]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[messagingengine.com:dkim] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4TDJJn2S6bz44C2 On Mon, Jan 8, 2024, at 3:00 AM, Mark Millard wrote: > On Jan 1, 2024, at 21:45, Philip Paeps wrote: > >> On 2024-01-02 12:38:47 (+0800), Mark Millard wrote: >>> [FYI: My internet access is limited to a cellphone for some number o= f days.] > > I'm back to having my normal internet access. > >>>> On Jan 1, 2024, at 19:26, Philip Paeps wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> =EF=BB=BFOn 2023-12-07 23:03:33 (+0800), Mark Millard wrote: >>>>> . . . >>>>>=20 >>>>> There might be issues at times with https://pkg.freebsd.org/index.= html not >>>>> being in sync. As far as I can tell, that page is manually maintai= ned. >>>>=20 >>>> clusteradm updates that page to match what we're actually distribut= ing. If it doesn't reflect reality, that's a bug, and we'd like to know= please. :-) >>>=20 >>> Does that include the =E2=80=9Conly ??? Is updated=E2=80=9D sorts of= notes? >>=20 >> Yes. Please let clusteradm know if the notes don't appear to reflect= reality. >>=20 >> clusteradm maintains the pkgsync infrastructure, which includes the i= ndex page on the mirrors. pkgmgr is responsible for scheduling the buil= ds. (And ports committers are responsible for making sure packages are = even buildable). >>=20 >>> For example, FreeBSD:13:armv6 Latest dates back to 2021-Jan-25 but t= here is no note about quarterly only. Various FreeBSD:15:* do not have n= otes about Latest only, despite having no quarterly at all. Some other c= ases have notable but shorter differences in the Latest vs. Quarterly ti= me frames, suggesting only one is being updated but no fixed difference = is definitive for that status. >>=20 >> The pkgsync infrastructure doesn't really care how often packages are= updated. If memory serves, we first added a "quarterly only" note when= the thunderxX generation of aarch64 builders broke with distressing reg= ularity. The ampereX builders are much more reliable. >>=20 >> I think the current situation for armv6 is "updated irregularly". Po= werPC is in the same boat as aarch64 in the ThunderX era: when the hardw= are works, packages are updated. >>=20 >> . . . >> Philip >>=20 >> --=20 >> Philip Paeps >> Senior Reality Engineer >> Alternative Enterprises > > Using https://dev.freshports.org/ports-mgmt/pkg looking for > versions involved that are prior to 1.20.* at this point > (or being "-") but having also a 1.20.* involved (or both > being "-"), hovering in order to see dates when available > . . > > > Not-reported / misreported on https://pkg.freebsd.org/ : > > FreeBSD:13:armv6 latest 1.16.2 (2021-01-25) vs. quarterly 1.19.2 (2023= -09-05) > So only quarterly is updated (and not regularly?). > > FreeBSD:14:armv6 latest 1.19.0 (2023-01-15) vs. quarterly - > So only latest is/was updated (and not regularly). > > FreeBSD:14:powerpc64 latest - vs. quarterly - > So neither latest nor quarterly is updated. > > FreeBSD:15:aarch64 latest 1.20.9 (2023-11-25) vs. quarterly - > So only latest is updated. > > FreeBSD:15:amd64 latest 1.20.9 (2023-11-25) vs. quarterly - > So only latest is updated. > > FreeBSD:15:armv7 latest 1.20.9 (2023-11-25) vs. quarterly - > So only latest is updated. > > FreeBSD:15:powerpc latest - vs. quarterly - > So neither latest nor quarterly is updated. > > FreeBSD:15:powerpc64 latest - vs. quarterly - > So neither latest nor quarterly is updated. > > FreeBSD:15:powerpc64le latest 1.20.9 (2023-11-25) vs. quarterly - > So only latest is updated. Mark: My reading of your email saying the above items are something for = clusteradm to consider? As opposed to FreshPorts needs to do something. --=20 Dan Langille dan@langille.org From nobody Mon Jan 15 17:57:18 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TDKby3bzfz57D6F for ; Mon, 15 Jan 2024 17:57:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marklmi@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic304-24.consmr.mail.gq1.yahoo.com (sonic304-24.consmr.mail.gq1.yahoo.com [98.137.68.205]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TDKby13hkz4FJb for ; Mon, 15 Jan 2024 17:57:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marklmi@yahoo.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1705341451; bh=osfuH9+y14VuzNKJRpiYGQERSD/kM0D2c5Ufnof5Ido=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=JPDCDfpbqpQkbV2d/LclVOHSji5n7X4909JQ0q/CVyEA9o3LYANKme7m2eZwj0RnL+/oADS4aa85aUzwWh5voa+fhWZzeeBXEvOWGa6xQBYfcboYRFvLkz2EzK5QKoYQ4vpjmF63b2mJjUQjKJtgRgkZDvh9TWXLwWusxGGBua3DjZ5QWopUP7HaMBMynx5MS9jmOQ0XDEfEISF7TryhhDjdEZE5k6XcSa5NjlCH5Ctyd1Hl0BnBI9ob5l1NtvoSrMPn4QavYE9OkSnJeb0CPadE5gU2ImqEUHQu4CSeelO01f5KhNM4eE/Ec32nbWB3zo+WATIKZRdafe1Z/xCWbA== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1705341451; bh=Ir1hUla1uy24/ZI8KgIe0GPlZAbRHJsoWLaRzWKBSDF=; h=X-Sonic-MF:Subject:From:Date:To:From:Subject; b=jTV0BVM/Rd7/rKmEghCChMBlYxOiADvGQRB1PAfAW9AgHNAG+e9xPoy2hKD1piTt0bZv1dhnxbgIYd/yeig8EqZl+LGgUl7gZs2t+Qwa+3dJ4NyAvcMkKOKz7VPPlMbBoAa3czN92mRuXqs1y1PAILQeWOH3K9RTGlY6FwfVPG242Ebe34zjTO1HPSks4p1QR8hTjbWikFPbAlmyDo5ej3H6302lMne5tv3LJP+qjN16fsCQo5K0GzNyag/zR/fkOvA4IGs55zK5q44775E0w62Yt9TaLmLnCFL59gRzxpZ7Cogf8zc93caDpgHxZ7oQeikWogyphcF/N1GnOyZb5w== X-YMail-OSG: _C52IGwVM1nh5Me.NvhJXq0Y1gF0eBIl0_Br0AlfYNMMJL0IgjHIaEOCGLMS3wJ r9atsQE3Gbmj8CHL9QIzrNg658Vb9d_9v9Esp2BRQB5PO2LBfi.zI4IkUnSeW_9A_LjaqJoQcs3s WCaQA7G5AYpfuwPUPMYqgA2kO3LzJUMwuVX7.deF48XM4uWOqzUrPLkzjnzR5K84zjzM..qqrRj9 bdcESUy6szsCs_7jniNoqDiBAnPQvgRuDp9cRaWA0aKCis.54Z491uzCaSVmE2aPFkRwkh8WT04O vCF1wqB9.lrdkLthxeSqigEYVEcEdBC5cApYeAsGRTavlk2HpKiQkAJHDUjmyBaQUxeyNcWuUbR1 wQRu5Wg68wpZvnVMafrU8GzIenvPF9dMjHSUvP1kr_S_LjkMTY94pxRtAdZaqsKEjnqVtK.ZNBlp 6K6Kj61rUfR1A8uu_R5k8KqYb4rOyYI7ySdy8V.y9tHT30qZXTCOZ6_ruh6kayzRDov0fDpkFzTC QRxlnOLFCyCLworWqfDrS3r1fQm7nq1Evt7KSbbowI5hIqVwtktPaSWp3USMPfxjJ9.Q4Ttop.q9 _ICadxwt0eiMyLIS9sSdwvmhTc4dizy8qF32Gx3Lk8mfGGOr9paARCYLEm0bS62Iy5BA0yS5tYGQ TvilW22g0KCAHZ2YzaXHWLVLGFujjktHhqAqerGBe1aPuEeSBo4Djv9TOqjUmhVBKpG96N9kpOxu M2Mfd4lVL9r4EwS5MP6IuXX6hAm7Ci8wweTDBZSd7bGXfAuHnca83oq.3m4dZ_fyKyo1ksiVaAwC ktCx6BDzRrVaySEejaFAz6gVWGT9dGwCqF5YL1RdUMFj8ozbvCGiVlOODypwu3xxTBOw4FyJ9ztL RzApM2gLr_ifAD5HP7rndCp1emF5q32J4NeNoknhtaCcntFxCwm6iwbRmeZWj6wsn9da_W_LIEew lI09AwdVizu6Py3GzjmfGMqFWTocg_pg3uYKYmcyHq8rYpKhe4KzFeihTwEgs0DZx48q2ZlSIJRA dTTJKlYVT3TFa3vR3a6W75oIyG1flWFBgSdt4w.JZujBukjU_96SN19JV6yWrn5oFM5E5IlterHn 9V3O28me9bTuX04XZ93RTx6LqTqryeJZ_VtYC1ibCh0.inMQr8892994nubE_obVZ8braTJxphKv Dp3kreWYWRhlfeqX25wXYFdFRTiF_YXHMfIlxxSqPzQukSZ5UAUs7pwahVLq312Pm7NUU.JXoL0B CE12s2N6ci2fkm0Ss5xsXoJIh_n8JDGPzyM6WdBLeJ.kSm8BZq_s0DU_DtRVktPFygPZGR4f0lcz CHLfdWEPNdkSVMV.Yp2H53jsHZcLp0xhwex05qEK7BzMGP_e2Ye3PzZb3qGz1eZVRfb_JyWna.MZ _jAs5Uio4hE85do27Qo0wrDMkZzCYgC3dY3RVAYTf3hXsoz0QQ9Bi.Bmnpefwz5vZ6rEBrzO_OBH sVwyckFKOvVXu.kIwBlkCRkj5xs3oPT4KTx_bUEzjB5luO4fuYoUHUfn0D1Se.CcEHzuU1851ARq iCkf8QNbXhDXHP9XtHdxhx_j7yichMnpbozsZ0uVdiJetj5F4l3pmXbsupuJPh7DeXBZAtBvL9FH HRcogoKwmhjQE9_rHGiQqbU_RzBNoL1c2ZN_om.Sat0fr2y6X8H5q.LiMSDEfZQyoS4RArajDaWI 2pnfGfYP8AJj2zJCLv2A46DgMlsUGgjEGBzmJVBX2_LBSIGRtU3NdMyzetHp5fOteo04.uICdvmH 9Q7f_DfQG.xOiIkGnV3_yIxHXal_GdZaDm0BD1lKjEzgzvn92VVD_YynoGcjHoyvmv16GoCHfaxV TtG9GQrRmdLt5Air7E5NPLfdhovS9o3niz5NuJEWLAoviiPq_780swTmgNlhCP9komWLIsYv.w_d 03l4dIEHq2N7OgAGOuaufMiQ_lgCcE5ZmZtv0fmWPK9SnBs2eRtB28LF4cSOeKEKPomCylNS5bPV f6amCEHVGB2QhVmQztwFhzmmzkO0tetCFFxFEiXBr9O_D8VYlpHmWr6qTDmbdS0VQu4X0.sOzuWX aGmc1.b1pt.TIHnBrxBT9peiYpA_EpeP9CopXvRy5uWXzLJ1uWDyGhYjl2qa79cHPqsWzyXmwGUt JdIEg1vv.F52tsV_d5E0mNqAWSqMQFGHTQedWdtMRnVEU0gY7sfm6EFTecow2lN4FML4I470qI2B kCEml6x5AlCqC.dm09b5qXAr.R5BM4HcX5vK1tYKnIP9c5Y4v2ZlJy83gmgklYYhyor0XXk0I4MM cte8- X-Sonic-MF: X-Sonic-ID: d482bdfe-f5b3-4925-8d5c-5896ae43e926 Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic304.consmr.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 15 Jan 2024 17:57:31 +0000 Received: by hermes--production-gq1-78d49cd6df-c95sd (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID e955deecdb914bb35edd707db20e4753; Mon, 15 Jan 2024 17:57:29 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3774.300.61.1.2\)) Subject: Re: list of valid ABI combinations From: Mark Millard In-Reply-To: <43875796-b619-47c4-874f-39090416b2ff@app.fastmail.com> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2024 09:57:18 -0800 Cc: Philip Paeps , "clusteradm@freebsd.org" , FreeBSD Hackers Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0AF73A03-2AC2-4A1D-986F-B1E01A6B29DB@yahoo.com> References: <41A815DF-8F94-4B00-AEDF-D5E7456A0914@yahoo.com> <43875796-b619-47c4-874f-39090416b2ff@app.fastmail.com> To: Dan Langille X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3774.300.61.1.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4TDKby13hkz4FJb X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36647, ipnet:98.137.64.0/20, country:US] On Jan 15, 2024, at 08:58, Dan Langille wrote: > On Mon, Jan 8, 2024, at 3:00 AM, Mark Millard wrote: >> On Jan 1, 2024, at 21:45, Philip Paeps wrote: >>=20 >>> On 2024-01-02 12:38:47 (+0800), Mark Millard wrote: >>>> [FYI: My internet access is limited to a cellphone for some number = of days.] >>=20 >> I'm back to having my normal internet access. >>=20 >>>>> On Jan 1, 2024, at 19:26, Philip Paeps wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> =EF=BB=BFOn 2023-12-07 23:03:33 (+0800), Mark Millard wrote: >>>>>> . . . >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> There might be issues at times with = https://pkg.freebsd.org/index.html not >>>>>> being in sync. As far as I can tell, that page is manually = maintained. >>>>>=20 >>>>> clusteradm updates that page to match what we're actually = distributing. If it doesn't reflect reality, that's a bug, and we'd = like to know please. :-) >>>>=20 >>>> Does that include the =E2=80=9Conly ??? Is updated=E2=80=9D sorts = of notes? >>>=20 >>> Yes. Please let clusteradm know if the notes don't appear to = reflect reality. >>>=20 >>> clusteradm maintains the pkgsync infrastructure, which includes the = index page on the mirrors. pkgmgr is responsible for scheduling the = builds. (And ports committers are responsible for making sure packages = are even buildable). >>>=20 >>>> For example, FreeBSD:13:armv6 Latest dates back to 2021-Jan-25 but = there is no note about quarterly only. Various FreeBSD:15:* do not have = notes about Latest only, despite having no quarterly at all. Some other = cases have notable but shorter differences in the Latest vs. Quarterly = time frames, suggesting only one is being updated but no fixed = difference is definitive for that status. >>>=20 >>> The pkgsync infrastructure doesn't really care how often packages = are updated. If memory serves, we first added a "quarterly only" note = when the thunderxX generation of aarch64 builders broke with distressing = regularity. The ampereX builders are much more reliable. >>>=20 >>> I think the current situation for armv6 is "updated irregularly". = PowerPC is in the same boat as aarch64 in the ThunderX era: when the = hardware works, packages are updated. >>>=20 >>> . . . >>> Philip >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> Philip Paeps >>> Senior Reality Engineer >>> Alternative Enterprises >>=20 >> Using https://dev.freshports.org/ports-mgmt/pkg looking for >> versions involved that are prior to 1.20.* at this point >> (or being "-") but having also a 1.20.* involved (or both >> being "-"), hovering in order to see dates when available >> . . >>=20 >>=20 >> Not-reported / misreported on https://pkg.freebsd.org/ : >>=20 >> FreeBSD:13:armv6 latest 1.16.2 (2021-01-25) vs. quarterly 1.19.2 = (2023-09-05) >> So only quarterly is updated (and not regularly?). >>=20 >> FreeBSD:14:armv6 latest 1.19.0 (2023-01-15) vs. quarterly - >> So only latest is/was updated (and not regularly). >>=20 >> FreeBSD:14:powerpc64 latest - vs. quarterly - >> So neither latest nor quarterly is updated. >>=20 >> FreeBSD:15:aarch64 latest 1.20.9 (2023-11-25) vs. quarterly - >> So only latest is updated. >>=20 >> FreeBSD:15:amd64 latest 1.20.9 (2023-11-25) vs. quarterly - >> So only latest is updated. >>=20 >> FreeBSD:15:armv7 latest 1.20.9 (2023-11-25) vs. quarterly - >> So only latest is updated. >>=20 >> FreeBSD:15:powerpc latest - vs. quarterly - >> So neither latest nor quarterly is updated. >>=20 >> FreeBSD:15:powerpc64 latest - vs. quarterly - >> So neither latest nor quarterly is updated. >>=20 >> FreeBSD:15:powerpc64le latest 1.20.9 (2023-11-25) vs. quarterly - >> So only latest is updated. >=20 >=20 > Mark: My reading of your email saying the above items are something = for clusteradm to consider? Yes. Philip P. had requested to let clusteradm know "if the notes don't appear to reflect reality". I did that once I got general internet access back. Since there are no detailed criteria for the categorizations, they may well consider a subset of what I reported as appropriate to deal with. That is part of why I listed versions (or "-") and dates (when available). > As opposed to FreshPorts needs to do something. I just used Freshports to find the time frames for ports-mgmt/pkg. I did not run into any oddities when I did so. It gives a good way to occasionally manually check on the status of the notes. So, more background information for you than anything. =3D=3D=3D Mark Millard marklmi at yahoo.com From nobody Mon Jan 15 17:57:31 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TDKcD6xKKz57D8p for ; Mon, 15 Jan 2024 17:57:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from george+freebsd@m5p.com) Received: from mailhost.m5p.com (mailhost.m5p.com [74.104.188.4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "m5p.com", Issuer "R3" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TDKcD0rdPz4Fb9 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 2024 17:57:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from george+freebsd@m5p.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of george+freebsd@m5p.com designates 74.104.188.4 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=george+freebsd@m5p.com Received: from [IPV6:2001:470:1f07:15ff::26] (court.m5p.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:15ff:0:0:0:26]) (authenticated bits=0) by mailhost.m5p.com (8.17.1/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 40FHvV4Z023729 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; 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Mon, 15 Jan 2024 18:15:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtpclient.apple (host81-141-223-70.range81-141.btcentralplus.com [81.141.223.70]) by smtp.theravensnest.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5CA86BE07; Mon, 15 Jan 2024 18:15:00 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3774.200.91.1.1\)) Subject: Re: How to upgrade an EOL FreeBSD release or how to make it working again From: David Chisnall In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2024 18:14:48 +0000 Cc: John F Carr , freebsd-arm , freebsd-hackers , FreeBSD Mailing List , "freebsd-xen@freebsd.org" , FreeBSD Current , Warner Losh , =?utf-8?Q?Roger_Pau_Monn=C3=A9?= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Mario Marietto X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3774.200.91.1.1) On 15 Jan 2024, at 16:46, Mario Marietto wrote: >=20 > The ARM Chromebook is based on armv7,it is still recent. For reference, the ARMv7 architecture was introduced in 2005. The last = cores that implemented the architecture were released in 2014. This is = not a =E2=80=98recent=E2=80=99 architecture, it=E2=80=99s one that=E2=80=99= s 19 years old and has been largely dead for several years. > But let's change perspective for a moment,don't think about the ARM = Chromebook. My question is : how to upgrade FreeBSD when it goes EOL. Generally, run `freebsd-update`. This is a very different question from = =E2=80=98how do I do a new install of an old an unsupported version?' > I ask this because there is a huge difference here between FreeBSD and = Linux. Today if you need to use , for example Ubuntu 14.0, you can use = it as is. Yes,there will be a lot of bugs,but it will work without = crashes. But if you want to use an old FreeBSD system,nothing will work = for you. So,do you know some methods to install even packages or ports ? = You know,there are cases when you need to do some experiments so that = you can keep your machine off the internet,so you aren't scared that = someone can compromise it. Totally prohibiting the users to use an old = system,removing ports and packages is not a choice that I approve of. = And I'm not the only one that thinks like this. If you want to use an old and unsupported version of FreeBSD, no one is = stopping you, but: - You will need to build the releases. The source code is still in = git, you can. The scripts for building the release images are right = there in the repo. Just grab the relevant release or releng branch and = go. - You will need to build packages. Newer versions of the ports tree = will not be tested with the older release, so you may need to use an = older checkout of the ports tree. Poudriere will build a package repo = for you. =20 In both cases, if you=E2=80=99re using older versions you almost = certainly *will* have security vulnerabilities. The project strongly = advises you not to do this and not to blame us when you install = known-insecure software and end up compromised. The project does not have enough active contributors to keep maintaining = things indefinitely. This is why release have a five-year supported = lifetime. If you want to pick up an old branch and maintain it, = you=E2=80=99re welcome to. In the past, companies have picked up old = branches and maintained them for customers that had a dependency on = them. If you want to pay someone to maintain an old branch (and have = deep pockets) then there are probably a few companies that will happily = take your money. Maintaining binaries is a slightly different issue, but it=E2=80=99s not = totally unrelated. Keeping old packages around consumes disk space and = costs the project money (remember, every package is mirrored across the = CDN, so this isn=E2=80=99t just a single disk). Even if it were free, = philosophically, I think making it easy for users to install = known-insecure software is a bad idea but if you want to keep a package = repo with out-of-date packages online indefinitely then you can. You = can run Poudriere and even cross-compile from a fairly beefy cloud = machine quite easily. It=E2=80=99s been a while since I did a full package build, but I would = guess that you could do a single package build (all ports) for about $50 = on a cloud VM, more (2-3x) if it=E2=80=99s emulated. Storing the = results for a small number of users will cost around $10-20/month. If = you think this is an important thing to do, then you are absolutely = welcome to spend your own money on doing it. David From nobody Mon Jan 15 18:48:06 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TDLl40tt4z57LBn; Mon, 15 Jan 2024 18:48:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ed1-x52e.google.com (mail-ed1-x52e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TDLl35vkYz4TJB; Mon, 15 Jan 2024 18:48:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-ed1-x52e.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5592d2bc270so1656199a12.1; Mon, 15 Jan 2024 10:48:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1705344523; x=1705949323; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=I/WoT+Ay3mzobABXMuF7AlcLOD0UXEORhbexuiMS3jc=; b=maVx6eer64Codn/m4OY+Jx7XQH5qKPJcnTTQuvTeF+G4ED+LNbzJGPugA/yHfSoy+a NwhoBORj2B4MCAdyUeXXLcpryaq0sPi9M3WtYcihzp84HPJX2SAccLj+ZrwSzcwgIa78 1QN4b7TVM2sQ4zl6V4dypg40LmNDq0+UYXKMd4jvRJvv4r3hznI+pGK6PWVKKypUKaO+ AZBDOKAShlS0okILvs1VIdmozxCW2WhXkaTy4IWFu/loLzinK6K8kKprDDLQHSKmqRbK LrNjn1jGJ1ZsmfHq02Xq9E8UrZ0vOfQxjD1yXd/Bvjnplqoa2x0gBc5hOzpO/vmLLYlZ fYcQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1705344523; x=1705949323; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=I/WoT+Ay3mzobABXMuF7AlcLOD0UXEORhbexuiMS3jc=; b=IluRGduNITza3Xcx2E1pk6i4L1lABtcKu8mfy/lgtajN5u/qeJmXCsqBs63WUpYAtQ 2LrmvLdLPLcvEIcX0EdndiH5GTl+Qp8fLk9jSjpMX8SzylwXlM0RSgKVlTnNftFAbA5/ muXfeejE38BYvGVQvIGvIQXgQwmstiKL6PoHmBPE81IHMN7d6g57QpQ7P8scBkvpqjhF qPjdzITSar3RNlvA4h+NjAAlD1Wzin+GvAonw1BENWghaCxJhpXMqo6dOXq6c4G5D6TM TAPNJQFlvqt1ixtHrOtoGGA+8n7+XHL5rma4gVQb8EDjB3ec3aN9SNZ9EjcnfZUZmrJP xW7Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyE12BNTmDdKI3zX/AQKHKeIJXztMRezbuzkbbu5cGafLKymYi/ Tpfpq2ZszRf++VRX9lji+5RI3uWh1M9rPvRcPVzCRTn2CNI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGS7eSa65YjqkaboRH6mDNUmVYlffE4MIJeRgh5P3fDXyd/r71xNmO94HTynry1lUgpQc6OxlxILxi8IC+yIM4= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:9b44:b0:a2b:238d:50f2 with SMTP id ep4-20020a1709069b4400b00a2b238d50f2mr2263418ejc.152.1705344522663; Mon, 15 Jan 2024 10:48:42 -0800 (PST) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Mario Marietto Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2024 19:48:06 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: How to upgrade an EOL FreeBSD release or how to make it working again To: David Chisnall , Mark Millard Cc: John F Carr , freebsd-arm , freebsd-hackers , FreeBSD Mailing List , "freebsd-xen@freebsd.org" , FreeBSD Current , Warner Losh , =?UTF-8?Q?Roger_Pau_Monn=C3=A9?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007e39b1060f007600" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4TDLl35vkYz4TJB X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] --0000000000007e39b1060f007600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello. Do you have deleted forever the set of packages and ports for FreeBSD 11 or you keep them stored in DVDs that I can buy or download for a small amount of money ? If yes,where ? To rebuild everything is out of my expertise. On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 7:15=E2=80=AFPM David Chisnall wrote: > On 15 Jan 2024, at 16:46, Mario Marietto wrote: > > > > The ARM Chromebook is based on armv7,it is still recent. > > For reference, the ARMv7 architecture was introduced in 2005. The last > cores that implemented the architecture were released in 2014. This is n= ot > a =E2=80=98recent=E2=80=99 architecture, it=E2=80=99s one that=E2=80=99s = 19 years old and has been largely > dead for several years. > > > But let's change perspective for a moment,don't think about the ARM > Chromebook. My question is : how to upgrade FreeBSD when it goes EOL. > > Generally, run `freebsd-update`. This is a very different question from > =E2=80=98how do I do a new install of an old an unsupported version?' > > > I ask this because there is a huge difference here between FreeBSD and > Linux. Today if you need to use , for example Ubuntu 14.0, you can use it > as is. Yes,there will be a lot of bugs,but it will work without crashes. > But if you want to use an old FreeBSD system,nothing will work for you. > So,do you know some methods to install even packages or ports ? You > know,there are cases when you need to do some experiments so that you can > keep your machine off the internet,so you aren't scared that someone can > compromise it. Totally prohibiting the users to use an old system,removin= g > ports and packages is not a choice that I approve of. And I'm not the onl= y > one that thinks like this. > > If you want to use an old and unsupported version of FreeBSD, no one is > stopping you, but: > > - You will need to build the releases. The source code is still in git, > you can. The scripts for building the release images are right there in > the repo. Just grab the relevant release or releng branch and go. > > - You will need to build packages. Newer versions of the ports tree wil= l > not be tested with the older release, so you may need to use an older > checkout of the ports tree. Poudriere will build a package repo for you. > > In both cases, if you=E2=80=99re using older versions you almost certainl= y *will* > have security vulnerabilities. The project strongly advises you not to d= o > this and not to blame us when you install known-insecure software and end > up compromised. > > The project does not have enough active contributors to keep maintaining > things indefinitely. This is why release have a five-year supported > lifetime. If you want to pick up an old branch and maintain it, you=E2= =80=99re > welcome to. In the past, companies have picked up old branches and > maintained them for customers that had a dependency on them. If you want > to pay someone to maintain an old branch (and have deep pockets) then the= re > are probably a few companies that will happily take your money. > > Maintaining binaries is a slightly different issue, but it=E2=80=99s not = totally > unrelated. Keeping old packages around consumes disk space and costs the > project money (remember, every package is mirrored across the CDN, so thi= s > isn=E2=80=99t just a single disk). Even if it were free, philosophically= , I think > making it easy for users to install known-insecure software is a bad idea > but if you want to keep a package repo with out-of-date packages online > indefinitely then you can. You can run Poudriere and even cross-compile > from a fairly beefy cloud machine quite easily. > > It=E2=80=99s been a while since I did a full package build, but I would g= uess that > you could do a single package build (all ports) for about $50 on a cloud > VM, more (2-3x) if it=E2=80=99s emulated. Storing the results for a smal= l number > of users will cost around $10-20/month. If you think this is an importan= t > thing to do, then you are absolutely welcome to spend your own money on > doing it. > > David > > --=20 Mario. --0000000000007e39b1060f007600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello.

Do you have deleted f= orever the set of packages and ports for FreeBSD 11 or you keep them stored= in DVDs that I can buy or download for a small amount of money ? If yes,wh= ere ? To rebuild everything is out of my expertise.

On Mon, Jan 1= 5, 2024 at 7:15=E2=80=AFPM David Chisnall <theraven@freebsd.org> wrote:
On 15 Jan 2024, at 16:46, Mario Marietto &= lt;marietto2008= @gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The ARM Chromebook is based on armv7,it is still recent.

For reference, the ARMv7 architecture was introduced in 2005.=C2=A0 The las= t cores that implemented the architecture were released in 2014.=C2=A0 This= is not a =E2=80=98recent=E2=80=99 architecture, it=E2=80=99s one that=E2= =80=99s 19 years old and has been largely dead for several years.

> But let's change perspective for a moment,don't think about th= e ARM Chromebook. My question is : how to upgrade FreeBSD when it goes EOL.=

Generally, run `freebsd-update`.=C2=A0 This is a very different question fr= om =E2=80=98how do I do a new install of an old an unsupported version?'= ;

> I ask this because there is a huge difference here between FreeBSD and= Linux. Today if you need to use , for example Ubuntu 14.0, you can use it = as is. Yes,there will be a lot of bugs,but it will work without crashes.=C2= =A0 But if you want to use an old FreeBSD system,nothing will work for you.= So,do you know some methods to install even packages or ports ? You know,t= here are cases when you need to do some experiments so that you can keep yo= ur machine off the internet,so you aren't scared that someone can compr= omise it. Totally prohibiting the users to use an old system,removing ports= and packages is not a choice that I approve of. And I'm not the only o= ne that thinks like this.

If you want to use an old and unsupported version of FreeBSD, no one is sto= pping you, but:

=C2=A0- You will need to build the releases.=C2=A0 The source code is still= in git, you can.=C2=A0 The scripts for building the release images are rig= ht there in the repo.=C2=A0 Just grab the relevant release or releng branch= and go.

=C2=A0- You will need to build packages.=C2=A0 Newer versions of the ports = tree will not be tested with the older release, so you may need to use an o= lder checkout of the ports tree.=C2=A0 Poudriere will build a package repo = for you.=C2=A0

In both cases, if you=E2=80=99re using older versions you almost certainly = *will* have security vulnerabilities.=C2=A0 The project strongly advises yo= u not to do this and not to blame us when you install known-insecure softwa= re and end up compromised.

The project does not have enough active contributors to keep maintaining th= ings indefinitely.=C2=A0 This is why release have a five-year supported lif= etime.=C2=A0 If you want to pick up an old branch and maintain it, you=E2= =80=99re welcome to.=C2=A0 In the past, companies have picked up old branch= es and maintained them for customers that had a dependency on them.=C2=A0 I= f you want to pay someone to maintain an old branch (and have deep pockets)= then there are probably a few companies that will happily take your money.=

Maintaining binaries is a slightly different issue, but it=E2=80=99s not to= tally unrelated.=C2=A0 Keeping old packages around consumes disk space and = costs the project money (remember, every package is mirrored across the CDN= , so this isn=E2=80=99t just a single disk).=C2=A0 Even if it were free, ph= ilosophically, I think making it easy for users to install known-insecure s= oftware is a bad idea but if you want to keep a package repo with out-of-da= te packages online indefinitely then you can.=C2=A0 You can run Poudriere a= nd even cross-compile from a fairly beefy cloud machine quite easily.

It=E2=80=99s been a while since I did a full package build, but I would gue= ss that you could do a single package build (all ports) for about $50 on a = cloud VM, more (2-3x) if it=E2=80=99s emulated.=C2=A0 Storing the results f= or a small number of users will cost around $10-20/month.=C2=A0 If you thin= k this is an important thing to do, then you are absolutely welcome to spen= d your own money on doing it.

David



--
Mario.
--0000000000007e39b1060f007600-- From nobody Tue Jan 16 07:09:09 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TDg9W3tdZz56yQn for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2024 07:09:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) Received: from soth.netfence.it (mailserver.netfence.it [78.134.96.152]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mailserver.netfence.it", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TDg9V3d3qz494C for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2024 07:09:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=netfence.it; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ml@netfence.it designates 78.134.96.152 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ml@netfence.it Received: from [10.1.2.18] (alamar.local.netfence.it [10.1.2.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by soth.netfence.it (8.17.2/8.17.1) with ESMTPSA id 40G799E5009043 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 16 Jan 2024 08:09:10 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) X-Authentication-Warning: soth.netfence.it: Host alamar.local.netfence.it [10.1.2.18] claimed to be [10.1.2.18] Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2024 08:09:09 +0100 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: Thunderbird, ligatures, and "fixed-width" fonts Content-Language: en-US To: George Mitchell , FreeBSD Hackers References: <43ad528d-e45c-47fe-837c-cf7716ea7d86@m5p.com> From: Andrea Venturoli In-Reply-To: <43ad528d-e45c-47fe-837c-cf7716ea7d86@m5p.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.79 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[netfence.it,none]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:78.134.96.152]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:35612, ipnet:78.134.0.0/17, country:IT]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4TDg9V3d3qz494C On 1/15/24 18:57, George Mitchell wrote: > With help from Bertrand Petit and Stephen Hurd, I found out that this > is a feature of the font system itself, or at least fontconfig.  The > fix is to create a new file, ~/.config/fontconfig/fonts.conf, and put > the contents of: > https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/attachment.cgi?id=247050 > in it. Hello. Thanks for bringing this up, as I'm experiencing the same problem. I've looked up the patch you linked, but I don't know where to put it exacly. I already have ~/.config/fontconfig/fonts.conf and it's an XML file: none true hintmedium true So where would that additional line go? I don't know where my version comes from. Perhaps it was crafted from XFCE settings GUI? Is this all obsolete? Should I delete this and replace it with the given text? bye & Thanks av. From nobody Tue Jan 16 07:45:13 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TDh3W2LNWz573RY for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2024 07:49:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-hackers@phoe.frmug.org) Received: from frmug.org (enterprise.frmug.org [213.36.253.97]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TDh3W0KTQz4FTK for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2024 07:49:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-hackers@phoe.frmug.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by frmug.org (Postfix, from userid 66) id 6A56412B887; Tue, 16 Jan 2024 08:49:03 +0100 (CET) Received: by memo2.memo.frmug.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 0C0A517984; Tue, 16 Jan 2024 08:45:13 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2024 08:45:13 +0100 From: Bertrand Petit To: Andrea Venturoli Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Thunderbird, ligatures, and "fixed-width" fonts Message-ID: <20240116074513.GC14773@memo2.memo.frmug.org> References: <43ad528d-e45c-47fe-837c-cf7716ea7d86@m5p.com> List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.1 (2019-06-15) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4TDh3W0KTQz4FTK X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:12322, ipnet:213.36.0.0/16, country:FR] On Tue, Jan 16, 2024 at 08:09:09AM +0100, Andrea Venturoli wrote: > > I've looked up the patch you linked, but I don't know where to put it > exacly. > I already have ~/.config/fontconfig/fonts.conf and it's an XML file: Extract the whole tag from George's document and insert it anywhere in your fonts.conf file with the limitation that it must be placed at the same level as the already present s. > I don't know where my version comes from. Perhaps it was crafted from > XFCE settings GUI? You way want to make your file read-only in order to prevent any desktop environment from overwriting your settings. You can also place the whole document George mentioned in a separate file in the ~/.config/fontconfig/ directory. For reference, look in /usr/local/etc/fonts/ how this is done system-wide. > Is this all obsolete? Should I delete this and replace it with the given > text? Those settings are fine and can be kept. Removing then will change the appearance of text on screen. -- %!PS -- Bertrand Petit /D{def}def/E{exch}D/G{get}D/I{2 div}D/U{dup}D/L{roll}D/Y{setgray}D/N{newpath}D /O{N 0 0 moveto}D/P{pop}D/T{translate}D currentpagedevice/PageSize G U 0 G/w E D 1 G /h E D w I h I T 0 Y 1 setlinewidth 0 1 2 { P 120 rotate 2 4 w U mul h U mul add sqrt I 50 add {N 50 0 3 2 L 0 360 arc stroke}for}for/s{O true charpath pathbbox exch 4 -1 L E sub I 3 1 L sub I} D /l(bp)D 0.94 Y /Helvetica findfont 22 scalefont setfont l s P(x)s exch P T O l show showpage From nobody Tue Jan 16 08:37:26 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TDj7T4pLMz578Sn for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2024 08:37:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TDj7T4GBZz4MFL; Tue, 16 Jan 2024 08:37:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1705394261; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=tHr3rmcBGby/+5b1cSZCrXOhVEnOKDPTw3g7qi4iFnk=; b=qxJQR9M9/DB3VECV/z6ccfUYMT/yJN7O0zcg9drwyuHdQBdH5EIDZPf4xR8HWYFx4bkIWR beEWBovd8eaEqVGEFIX80SnPeJGsu8zik7FYBeKRXmeMvDnBJ5xfDlAIS6YV6IB1/bZllV PpwRRGaJwGrPKT72HJ/dD5C+9HxSK7TCtLWEluVl8/AGTDVSMjLLAWx3oJAt8GaypIIB6/ YUiGOkAkF+75xMgfPg+0GvRGnDfJzezFM+bjSCrcwr+jV37RgqfW+nnQz1vVOQ8ReitMIX f2et1ssaTni6XLEY2wd74oeZcqquxveSfsRzLfT5Q38RV4MMmVsbBuCLRq7HLg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1705394261; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=tHr3rmcBGby/+5b1cSZCrXOhVEnOKDPTw3g7qi4iFnk=; b=jWXXKdBbVfA+NAWWCT4pDMIWTqOs0R5CYog8yffzfvAUoYzSi3njxYEByL1G4vza/cKSc2 aX7mNOubqS/wp487nN+LUHgUMkMnAHRqq8mFqYlg8eJgi33b9nuhPOUHwiprM3dmKz8siw Tasf1Kl1pdiHRHwf/zTMpIddDnlZahEgAhtDcLCaw0lobArW0NzQTT3bz3kkMrA3/jDgLF YjHY+rTucetkZnIKeV27n8q4MjU+c31PvVmurr+uVrepHoMefKXT0KLfaoWZlyvLMMQIRz 3D4VFYn8A1TbmD21FggLAY44Wtk+57ZkVvi1mjYp00Mc9Rpgeve2Wuzh4DUj4A== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1705394261; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=gp6+RhzV8zDMDM0FoAGzPWqvfyrtPpIG+NyFzuuc+bnHlxrxuSFNk5lkMLCrAiyUox8tD9 SqH+GnM2pUfOoJAfMEEhIhNUFC3VYL/ok9cLK1HdYIEe8huOQvaRLkF2LHoc8tovXv4H14 UthReveVeXhHtadBLC9zF1Pk/44XJO36ftmDkvFHrRoG0h/8JZNi8hRRfH8aivvDusCRpi TF4sr0CNPc2e7a1IpPpF8rx+s0KzBXGT32OAcWV49hONPrsGVw5mmlGznxoBIeuSpJzoCE d3XleV9fwMSDtHXixbav+AflNcitIGwIXsYcKsHP78+YvqezrxZWG+6A8hsylQ== Received: from smtp.theravensnest.org (smtp.theravensnest.org [45.77.103.195]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: theraven) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4TDj7T39PwzcV0; Tue, 16 Jan 2024 08:37:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@freebsd.org) Received: from smtpclient.apple (host81-141-223-70.range81-141.btcentralplus.com [81.141.223.70]) by smtp.theravensnest.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 91AD4BE28; Tue, 16 Jan 2024 08:37:40 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-6AB4A039-2CEA-40A7-91E0-3E55ACF7429C Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: David Chisnall List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: New to freeBSD and looking for guidance Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2024 08:37:26 +0000 Message-Id: <415886F8-A9BC-45D9-9276-CA60CB413501@freebsd.org> References: Cc: Sairaj Kodilkar , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: To: =?utf-8?Q?Bojan_Novkovi=C4=87?= X-Mailer: iPad Mail (21C62) --Apple-Mail-6AB4A039-2CEA-40A7-91E0-3E55ACF7429C Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,=

If you=E2=80=99re still wo= rking on this, can we have a call sometime to go over the design? Spending t= ime exactly replicating the Solaris-flavoured interfaces is probably not pro= ductive and there are some self-contained building blocks that could be sepa= rated out and landed independently that would be very useful.

David
(I put the prop= osal on the projects page originally)

On 14 Jan 2024, a= t 21:21, Bojan Novkovi=C4=87 <bnovkov@freebsd.org> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
Hi Sairaj,

I'd like to weigh in on the Solaris Doors topic (I'm t= he author of the implementation Warner mentioned).
The current implementation is a PoC at best, and is, as noted b= y David, missing some features. Development is currently at a standstill due= to a general lack of spare time and a=20 (probably wrongly) perceived lack of interest around the project, but it isn= 't abandoned or finished.

There is= still work to be done, and if this is something you'd like to work on I'd b= e delighted to discuss this further.

Bojan
<= /div>

On Sat, Jan 13, 2024 at 16:52=E2=80=AFPM Sairaj Kodilkar &= lt;skodilkar7@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello hackers=
I am Sairaj Kodilkar, a kernel enthusiast=20 and looking to explore FreeBSD. I am currently working at samsung=20 semiconductor research and previously interned as linux kernel developer at Texas instruments, where I worked on adding xen hypervisor support=20 for their SOC. I previously contributed to unikernel as part of google=20 summer of code where I worked on synchronizing virtio network driver.
I was going through the ideas list and found  "Solaris Doors IPC Implementation" and "bhyve gdb-s= tub/dcons integration". I would like to know if they are still available.
Also I am new to FreeBSD, so any guidance on these topics is appreciated.=

Regards
Sairaj Kodilkar
= --Apple-Mail-6AB4A039-2CEA-40A7-91E0-3E55ACF7429C-- From nobody Tue Jan 16 08:58:09 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TDjb834fFz57BRm for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2024 08:58:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) Received: from soth.netfence.it (mailserver.netfence.it [78.134.96.152]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mailserver.netfence.it", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TDjb801vfz4VND for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2024 08:58:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from [10.1.2.18] (alamar.local.netfence.it [10.1.2.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by soth.netfence.it (8.17.2/8.17.1) with ESMTPSA id 40G8w9OY025587 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 16 Jan 2024 09:58:09 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) X-Authentication-Warning: soth.netfence.it: Host alamar.local.netfence.it [10.1.2.18] claimed to be [10.1.2.18] Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2024 09:58:09 +0100 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: Thunderbird, ligatures, and "fixed-width" fonts Content-Language: en-US To: Bertrand Petit Cc: FreeBSD Hackers References: <43ad528d-e45c-47fe-837c-cf7716ea7d86@m5p.com> <20240116074513.GC14773@memo2.memo.frmug.org> From: Andrea Venturoli In-Reply-To: <20240116074513.GC14773@memo2.memo.frmug.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4TDjb801vfz4VND X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:35612, ipnet:78.134.0.0/17, country:IT] On 1/16/24 08:45, Bertrand Petit wrote: > On Tue, Jan 16, 2024 at 08:09:09AM +0100, Andrea Venturoli wrote: >> >> I've looked up the patch you linked, but I don't know where to put it >> exacly. >> I already have ~/.config/fontconfig/fonts.conf and it's an XML file: > > Extract the whole tag from George's document and insert it > anywhere in your fonts.conf file with the limitation that it must be placed at > the same level as the already present s. Doh!!! Helpful Firefox!!! It completely hid the fact that the attachment was XML too! :( Sorry for the dumb question. I'm trying this now... seems to be working. bye & Thanks av. From nobody Tue Jan 16 10:16:14 2024 X-Original-To: hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TDlKY6Cvnz57LG0 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2024 10:16:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bzeeb-lists@lists.zabbadoz.net) Received: from mx1.sbone.de (cross.sbone.de [195.201.62.131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mx1.sbone.de", Issuer "SBone.DE Root Certificate Authority" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TDlKX4zkYz4df4 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2024 10:16:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bzeeb-lists@lists.zabbadoz.net) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of bzeeb-lists@lists.zabbadoz.net designates 195.201.62.131 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bzeeb-lists@lists.zabbadoz.net Received: from mail.sbone.de (mail.sbone.de [IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:4902:0:7404:2:1025]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.sbone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB9708D4A233 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2024 10:16:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: from content-filter.t4-02.sbone.de (content-filter.t4-02.sbone.de [IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:4902:0:7404:2:2742]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail.sbone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 895A12D029D8 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2024 10:16:24 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at sbone.de Received: from mail.sbone.de ([IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:4902:0:7404:2:1025]) by content-filter.t4-02.sbone.de (content-filter.t4-02.sbone.de [IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:4902:0:7404:2:2742]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e-6i6YYYGImr for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2024 10:16:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: from strong-aiccu0.sbone.de (strong-aiccu0.sbone.de [IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:f491::2]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail.sbone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8A9A02D029D2 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2024 10:16:15 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2024 10:16:14 +0000 (UTC) From: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: libsa xzfs_fsops? Message-ID: X-OpenPGP-Key-Id: 0x14003F198FEFA3E77207EE8D2B58B8F83CCF1842 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.29 / 15.00]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.992]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:195.201.62.131]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:24940, ipnet:195.201.0.0/16, country:DE]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[hackers@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[zabbadoz.net]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[hackers@freebsd.org]; ARC_NA(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4TDlKX4zkYz4df4 Hi, how hard would it be to add xzfs_fsops to libsa like we already have for gz and bz2 and lz4(undocumented?) ? /bz -- Bjoern A. Zeeb r15:7 From nobody Tue Jan 16 10:26:00 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TDlXX4nJ6z57LyJ for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2024 10:26:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bzeeb-lists@lists.zabbadoz.net) Received: from mx1.sbone.de (cross.sbone.de [195.201.62.131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mx1.sbone.de", Issuer "SBone.DE Root Certificate Authority" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TDlXW5GpMz4gTV for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2024 10:26:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bzeeb-lists@lists.zabbadoz.net) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of bzeeb-lists@lists.zabbadoz.net designates 195.201.62.131 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bzeeb-lists@lists.zabbadoz.net Received: from mail.sbone.de (mail.sbone.de [IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:4902:0:7404:2:1025]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.sbone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C1F028D4A228; Tue, 16 Jan 2024 10:26:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: from content-filter.t4-02.sbone.de (content-filter.t4-02.sbone.de [IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:4902:0:7404:2:2742]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail.sbone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 73E442D029D7; Tue, 16 Jan 2024 10:26:02 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at sbone.de Received: from mail.sbone.de ([IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:4902:0:7404:2:1025]) by content-filter.t4-02.sbone.de (content-filter.t4-02.sbone.de [IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:4902:0:7404:2:2742]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0AmyIloY1o2c; Tue, 16 Jan 2024 10:26:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: from strong-aiccu0.sbone.de (strong-aiccu0.sbone.de [IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:f491::2]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail.sbone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 365E92D029D2; Tue, 16 Jan 2024 10:26:01 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2024 10:26:00 +0000 (UTC) From: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" To: Chris Torek cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: known iwlwifi bugs? [...] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <7pn2on05-2159-3r31-0515-q5s62s20rn00@yvfgf.mnoonqbm.arg> References: X-OpenPGP-Key-Id: 0x14003F198FEFA3E77207EE8D2B58B8F83CCF1842 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.30 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:195.201.62.131:c]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; ASN(0.00)[asn:24940, ipnet:195.201.0.0/16, country:DE]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[zabbadoz.net]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; SUBJECT_HAS_QUESTION(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4TDlXW5GpMz4gTV On Sun, 14 Jan 2024, Chris Torek wrote: Hi Chris, > I just brought up a new AMD 7950X based system on an ASRock Taichi > motherboard. Side note here: I had to use the SATA_Ax ports, the SATA_[1-4] > ports give channel timeouts, I have yet to look into those (other than > verifying that it's not a matter of waiting longer). > > The "Killer Ethernet" isn't up yet so I'm using the iwl wlan interface at > the moment. Things were going pretty good (32 CPUs for building! > buildworld takes under 16 minutes and buildkernel took 15 seconds, using 32 > jobs and the -jobs targets) but while building various ports I had a crash. > > The relevant part of the stack trace is: > > #6 0xffffffff83019ed2 at iwl_mvm_mac_itxq_xmit+0xc2 > #7 0xffffffff83028a6f at iwl_mvm_queue_state_change+0x1ef > #8 0xffffffff8306b085 at iwl_txq_reclaim+0x7f5 > #9 0xffffffff8304848e at iwl_mvm_rx_tx_cmd+0x14e > #10 0xffffffff83025d4e at iwl_mvm_rx_common+0x1ee > #11 0xffffffff8305a4c3 at iwl_pcie_rx_handle+0x483 > #12 0xffffffff83059f20 at iwl_pcie_napi_poll_msix+0x30 > #13 0xffffffff80dafcef at lkpi_napi_task+0xf > #14 0xffffffff80ba5922 at taskqueue_run_locked+0x182 > #15 0xffffffff80ba6bb2 at taskqueue_thread_loop+0xc2 > > I didn't get a crash dump (not sure why) and am still running the release > kernel at the moment, but this looks like it's in one of the linuxkpi > adapters, perhaps linuxkpi_ieee80211_tx_dequeue. Likely because you hit a firmware crash or some other problem. Hard to say without whatever was before that. Give you are mentioning linuxkpi_ieee80211_tx_dequeue, could have been this one? https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=275710 When you say you are still running release, that is 14.0? The freebsd-wireless list is generally a better place to to let us know about wireless problems. /bz -- Bjoern A. Zeeb r15:7 From nobody Tue Jan 16 10:46:54 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TDm0n1BKdz57P9c for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2024 10:47:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=/MDR=I2=quip.cz=000.fbsd@elsa.codelab.cz) Received: from elsa.codelab.cz (elsa.codelab.cz [94.124.105.4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TDm0m6665z4kkP for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2024 10:47:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=/MDR=I2=quip.cz=000.fbsd@elsa.codelab.cz) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from elsa.codelab.cz (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by elsa.codelab.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 894DFD7890; Tue, 16 Jan 2024 11:46:56 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=quip.cz; s=private; t=1705402016; bh=X9D8hf5dbBLEdfacYrGb+8en5/VFSql3dYFx6qi/ZDI=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=NZCPUfihK1Nhgdh7ULNr4hGtYd68kAUYTmqsTycAstO2HnUM4ZGavRvgDsMPTXXU5 DTh3miFevX2QH0QUUBhqjovfwkos/FCNN+g/Fu9ws/Wi0gU5khuB0zerHAcPDeSFjv nhdeSYbT2NRhi4udN0rzU44HVw6gSQOzjv/dbeXA= Received: from [192.168.145.49] (ip-89-177-27-225.bb.vodafone.cz [89.177.27.225]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by elsa.codelab.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1CE63D7884; Tue, 16 Jan 2024 11:46:55 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=quip.cz; s=private; t=1705402015; bh=X9D8hf5dbBLEdfacYrGb+8en5/VFSql3dYFx6qi/ZDI=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=vdRdCp3oy3eZpZTa+ZYtDKkaVFlyLN9W4gDSjxYSaeE1cwImy0LUc/CO2ue2bprsd fpzQuXGXygpO/UnTlmT8oRopait+Bj830F0Rc1kW/SDjDPyXBhCsBw8XEPC9YWyXzA jIFdKx6mw6B33y7uwy6F81IHdPoTRoq24YQIIzj4= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2024 11:46:54 +0100 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: Thunderbird, ligatures, and "fixed-width" fonts To: Bertrand Petit , Andrea Venturoli Cc: FreeBSD Hackers References: <43ad528d-e45c-47fe-837c-cf7716ea7d86@m5p.com> <20240116074513.GC14773@memo2.memo.frmug.org> Content-Language: cs-Cestina From: Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> In-Reply-To: <20240116074513.GC14773@memo2.memo.frmug.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4TDm0m6665z4kkP X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:42000, ipnet:94.124.104.0/21, country:CZ] On 16/01/2024 08:45, Bertrand Petit wrote: [..] >> I don't know where my version comes from. Perhaps it was crafted from >> XFCE settings GUI? > > You way want to make your file read-only in order to prevent any > desktop environment from overwriting your settings. > > You can also place the whole document George mentioned in a separate > file in the ~/.config/fontconfig/ directory. For reference, look in > /usr/local/etc/fonts/ how this is done system-wide. Can this be placed as a separate file into /usr/local/etc/fonts/conf.d/? This way it will not be overwritten by upgrade or another app. Kind regards Miroslav Lachman From nobody Tue Jan 16 11:19:19 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TDmqW491fz57SFC for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2024 11:24:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-hackers@phoe.frmug.org) Received: from frmug.org (enterprise.frmug.org [213.36.253.97]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TDmqW0Vrrz4q54 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2024 11:24:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-hackers@phoe.frmug.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by frmug.org (Postfix, from userid 66) id 7D43312B8B8; Tue, 16 Jan 2024 12:24:04 +0100 (CET) Received: by memo2.memo.frmug.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 910FE17984; Tue, 16 Jan 2024 12:19:19 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2024 12:19:19 +0100 From: Bertrand Petit To: Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Thunderbird, ligatures, and "fixed-width" fonts Message-ID: <20240116111919.GD14773@memo2.memo.frmug.org> References: <43ad528d-e45c-47fe-837c-cf7716ea7d86@m5p.com> <20240116074513.GC14773@memo2.memo.frmug.org> List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.1 (2019-06-15) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4TDmqW0Vrrz4q54 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:12322, ipnet:213.36.0.0/16, country:FR] On Tue, Jan 16, 2024 at 11:46:54AM +0100, Miroslav Lachman wrote: > > Can this be placed as a separate file into /usr/local/etc/fonts/conf.d/? > This way it will not be overwritten by upgrade or another app. Indeed, you can place the configuration file there. I would argue against it because the settings made there apply to all users, even non interactive ones such as daemons using fontconfig to serve bitmap content generated on the fly. For a desktop user, the best place is still a separate file located in any of the directories listed in /usr/local/etc/fonts/conf.d/50-user.conf. Contrary to fonts.conf, files you name yourself will probably not be altered by the desktop---if they are then its a bug. -- %!PS -- Bertrand Petit /D{def}def/E{exch}D/G{get}D/I{2 div}D/U{dup}D/L{roll}D/Y{setgray}D/N{newpath}D /O{N 0 0 moveto}D/P{pop}D/T{translate}D currentpagedevice/PageSize G U 0 G/w E D 1 G /h E D w I h I T 0 Y 1 setlinewidth 0 1 2 { P 120 rotate 2 4 w U mul h U mul add sqrt I 50 add {N 50 0 3 2 L 0 360 arc stroke}for}for/s{O true charpath pathbbox exch 4 -1 L E sub I 3 1 L sub I} D /l(bp)D 0.94 Y /Helvetica findfont 22 scalefont setfont l s P(x)s exch P T O l show showpage From nobody Tue Jan 16 14:25:07 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TDrrS1P2sz57KYJ for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2024 14:25:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=/MDR=I2=quip.cz=000.fbsd@elsa.codelab.cz) Received: from elsa.codelab.cz (elsa.codelab.cz [94.124.105.4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TDrrR5slmz4FJY for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2024 14:25:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=/MDR=I2=quip.cz=000.fbsd@elsa.codelab.cz) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from elsa.codelab.cz (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by elsa.codelab.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70228D7890; Tue, 16 Jan 2024 15:25:09 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=quip.cz; s=private; t=1705415109; bh=8hDPAhLTNPihv4iOLdJtznnGV4Nvph37Bg1YeIc0Lxc=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=qJ8MRZOr2gANc6SqTJWJqQVQoA+Cyc/E+9w+dNY1vX8N2Qpu+FA6xCC8wupsI8vgN g4vBmqIfaCaTyi+tqRLMiWKrjGmo4FvRbwqD4LYVSD1OB160PJM1pD8Sc6sPjUONUv CE1g40IIJabu43qkwR0IX1RC6xIV42AoXLZLyBmY= Received: from [192.168.145.49] (ip-89-177-27-225.bb.vodafone.cz [89.177.27.225]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by elsa.codelab.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B9038D7884; Tue, 16 Jan 2024 15:25:07 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=quip.cz; s=private; t=1705415107; bh=8hDPAhLTNPihv4iOLdJtznnGV4Nvph37Bg1YeIc0Lxc=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=RZ2qK132lHXD+/hzwZfLLL/ZQLyGPtwzeVscM0MPbvKfnkiJKUD5dZJlw8OgXc0+7 TC8bRqDA02BVAVDwqKzrkwinLE0HySH1XuUg86R5cMME0MvOE9Pyi+3/K/KNCQOiLX RPllF23VCyc5fEri0tWEV+8u/ivNjH7cKL5YlZwI= Message-ID: <4210157e-6505-44a9-9cc0-bf48dac0cf25@quip.cz> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2024 15:25:07 +0100 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: Thunderbird, ligatures, and "fixed-width" fonts To: Bertrand Petit Cc: FreeBSD Hackers References: <43ad528d-e45c-47fe-837c-cf7716ea7d86@m5p.com> <20240116074513.GC14773@memo2.memo.frmug.org> <20240116111919.GD14773@memo2.memo.frmug.org> Content-Language: cs-Cestina From: Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> In-Reply-To: <20240116111919.GD14773@memo2.memo.frmug.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4TDrrR5slmz4FJY X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:42000, ipnet:94.124.104.0/21, country:CZ] On 16/01/2024 12:19, Bertrand Petit wrote: > On Tue, Jan 16, 2024 at 11:46:54AM +0100, Miroslav Lachman wrote: >> >> Can this be placed as a separate file into /usr/local/etc/fonts/conf.d/? >> This way it will not be overwritten by upgrade or another app. > > Indeed, you can place the configuration file there. I would argue > against it because the settings made there apply to all users, even non > interactive ones such as daemons using fontconfig to serve bitmap content > generated on the fly. For a desktop user, the best place is still a separate > file located in any of the directories listed in > /usr/local/etc/fonts/conf.d/50-user.conf. Contrary to fonts.conf, files you > name yourself will probably not be altered by the desktop---if they are then > its a bug. Thank you for the clarification! Kind regards Miroslav Lachman From nobody Wed Jan 17 16:27:36 2024 X-Original-To: hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TFWWW09jdz5884G for ; Wed, 17 Jan 2024 16:27:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-ed1-x530.google.com (mail-ed1-x530.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::530]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TFWWV2HN8z4J31 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 2024 16:27:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com header.s=20230601 header.b=wp7jghgm; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wlosh@bsdimp.com has no SPF policy when checking 2a00:1450:4864:20::530) smtp.mailfrom=wlosh@bsdimp.com Received: by mail-ed1-x530.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5571e662b93so9367456a12.2 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 2024 08:27:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1705508869; x=1706113669; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=lFPRwEsUIg/GExPC1qfzVkgDwwaZsrYEbvRjFr8wHNg=; b=wp7jghgmaf6BvPi7jQIl4KL4cqUuKo0PSWYUhgMaxoWtFB3cQlXrxXEXtSLc4vQU5E DHAnlCmMQaeGFP1hJ1aDYteR7qgrNY0JVC+X0HtXAsHLf9GMfkj5kWfkDpMje20KDPJz AZ+qjRgmivgCcjZ9oKgU0II9r4GR5WV/qsIS8hHeFOPghkl9NOqZTiyTuNvrbRNG68NA uyawuuwmlaVODc5N5bB0rvCoYyYuoymRwgGyMtoZHBX2O4enup0/9pkReK3kGlS2s41/ thtzTZAJKX4r+Ywe7Q4NScSupFPMeWFPJ9D5Azg3VVTd331cOOyOvyj9H9jtLdIT7u2+ s2rQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1705508869; x=1706113669; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=lFPRwEsUIg/GExPC1qfzVkgDwwaZsrYEbvRjFr8wHNg=; b=kdXFNBIoBwZmaGpdvxhbJrG/C7NpIkm8II7N//QhgtriIFEftqXydX+ACsI6+QEQ1W YuII6INYJFwkhAstel0Z4OiBALSM5XsPgrsqLSHtdOy/MtgFpggoQnpoVBPdRVsAPby6 MzY0416hrgNdLkLSjYp43DmpuQ8jAd8RF5ijON+6+lEhNwWDd9BUztZMnFG/uEoJWJ9J ypEEXxJFK4jLxI195ux48HFrkVo53uQ57EoqWmISKG86SoE03taZXCHlOcIwyT3HBA5T r9h3K/l985IeQxrmsx7ss6UxSFXl54X7cpkfiOmtR+7qO6HHKXYLgUc5BTsAPTEV00Qg dljA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzT97fiPSZ7ZP+X+a1M75ljClUew8A/NgjL3gs9nRGJG+b8MIDd ojFJEktRBfaLOf974XnQHEidWTgtVFwNXhoDMsPk10PdzAsr9w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEZch6EMVvtb9+copBrPkEW2hCSBEtFOzvhthYhV0AkBgOQqXM3LH/c7nbv9E5yn7wAlv//iCgyfTZpM6wNr9s= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:3514:b0:554:a300:5a72 with SMTP id b20-20020a056402351400b00554a3005a72mr6405484edd.11.1705508868444; Wed, 17 Jan 2024 08:27:48 -0800 (PST) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2024 09:27:36 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: libsa xzfs_fsops? To: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000043e755060f26badc" X-Spamd-Bar: - X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.999]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com:s=20230601]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::530:from]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bsdimp.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[hackers@freebsd.org]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[hackers@freebsd.org]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4TFWWV2HN8z4J31 --00000000000043e755060f26badc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jan 16, 2024 at 3:16=E2=80=AFAM Bjoern A. Zeeb < bzeeb-lists@lists.zabbadoz.net> wrote: > how hard would it be to add xzfs_fsops to libsa like we already have for > gz and bz2 and lz4(undocumented?) ? > It wouldn't be horribly hard, though those hooks are for filesystems full of files that are compressed, which is funky to generate and not well supported after boot. Patches to fix the lz4 oversight are welcome. The loader was a dumping ground for many years, and it grew lz4 support during this time. It would also almost certainly not be in the x86 BIOS boot path: that's already too large and so it's closed to new features (at least by default, you can customize it however you want). Warner --00000000000043e755060f26badc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Jan 16, 2024 at 3:16=E2=80=AF= AM Bjoern A. Zeeb <bze= eb-lists@lists.zabbadoz.net> wrote:
how hard would it be to add xzfs_fsops to libsa = like we already have for
gz and bz2 and lz4(undocumented?) ?

It = wouldn't be horribly hard, though those hooks are for filesystems full = of files that
are compressed, which is funky to generate and not = well supported after boot.

Patches to fix the lz4 = oversight are welcome. The loader was a dumping ground for many years, and = it grew lz4 support during this time.

It would als= o almost certainly not be in the x86 BIOS boot path: that's already too= large and so it's closed to new features (at least by default, you can= customize it however you want).

Warner=C2=A0
<= /div>
--00000000000043e755060f26badc-- From nobody Wed Jan 17 22:54:06 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TFh602pg3z56xr1; Wed, 17 Jan 2024 22:54:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ed1-x52b.google.com (mail-ed1-x52b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TFh5z3PbZz4BJ0; Wed, 17 Jan 2024 22:54:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=cncX443B; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of marietto2008@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::52b as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=marietto2008@gmail.com Received: by mail-ed1-x52b.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-557dcb0f870so11719153a12.2; Wed, 17 Jan 2024 14:54:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1705532084; x=1706136884; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=nSnQOjjxuF3HP/SQOZZ6iXjGnfG8l+tXCOSpX5Tr914=; b=cncX443B3MHzqzq7lcIOFXNep1A8apI43dOjOSrpgUTZ/NyKAn0yaeETYTLRO6SfMR C8a922T1qMwnI4YOZI5YXYnVo/MoTLxZ/XlBCzQojta2NLN+hShdw7ondVUMb2lmgaUl yHcgJHdUnfJUfMjrfMazVFoyzWdaqKip0jDBgsfAsBjF4HrrXsISLHMjZKhR2BZq8urB Zajo7CF3/AsKjemrwUFl9hu9N8W1Kb5kdgscgj4h3vrYC4/7J1ZjINB7WXyPKvMpseux sAzesATfi/aRrEb/Lt0G0CrKVQkBih9iFSA4BodRnX1nk3bzogMl3UCr3LSJrWpjnq1S /1kA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1705532084; x=1706136884; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=nSnQOjjxuF3HP/SQOZZ6iXjGnfG8l+tXCOSpX5Tr914=; b=BphHi4sJ8SSOCol/NlMeludM9meX6BdrVki8aGhAN9imp9f+IiYi21utJdOWvJ6KHe TdAkQR1jhajdTOBSRbUCQs18tzvV7WZ21pLyNm2aFuBFzgGhTiYBZS8D6ai9UjXMlIcl p3V/s8kOAhLeHA1+/Aj8oywuw4GZ7TQQGvJo23dEasBqPdAHAhUGu5x6H8KmS3aQGPRF QJ7JF9p4ZacR9iDse/DV2qRuiBlp5hM/B2wDBsI6v+eS9f+AY2Zyh+Oo5BNm2PY092hH Ew5rHYD+yyltvwcqZo00F3f4/ICvAfidhw8w9YTFZTDLsDMKFln4INeGWS7mUL5ifX17 hNBQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyLvDYzVW4N1bPJvoP+z9yFhklPY8cz05v83OCRM+sYuLqARltf m3rWJrVv3SG2JxGvJRx9Q/C5xEvGBX5gH3I49OeaJXaYrtDyUQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IF+jR4VVogFOyMYacwANH61Q1whsUFMPHVI2X3QOlKb33ZPZ8uJZqFcH0fzcckiVLBHVlW+Q8YHxSJIEF/yYJY= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:3cf2:b0:a27:246b:442c with SMTP id d18-20020a1709063cf200b00a27246b442cmr4035292ejh.97.1705532083591; Wed, 17 Jan 2024 14:54:43 -0800 (PST) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Mario Marietto Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2024 23:54:06 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: How to upgrade an EOL FreeBSD release or how to make it working again To: David Chisnall , Mark Millard Cc: John F Carr , freebsd-arm , freebsd-hackers , FreeBSD Mailing List , "freebsd-xen@freebsd.org" , FreeBSD Current , Warner Losh , =?UTF-8?Q?Roger_Pau_Monn=C3=A9?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fedfbc060f2c216d" X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.98 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.979]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20230601]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[freebsd.org,yahoo.com]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROMTLD(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-arm@freebsd.org,freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org,freebsd-questions@freebsd.org,freebsd-xen@freebsd.org,freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[10]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::52b:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4TFh5z3PbZz4BJ0 --000000000000fedfbc060f2c216d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello to everyone. I'm trying to copy the Chromebook's SNOW source files that have been included on the FreeBSD 11 revision 269385 to the new FreeBSD 13 revision 373300. It has compiled correctly world,but when it starts to compile the kernel,it gives a lot of "unknown option" errors. Is there a way to fix them ? # svn co http://svn.freebsd.org/base/head@269385 ./head-269385 ; taken from this tutorial : https://wiki.freebsd.org/arm/Chromebook # svn co http://svn.freebsd.org/base/head ./head-373300 # cp ./head-269395/sys/arm/conf/CHROMEBOOK-SNOW ./head-373300/sys/arm/conf # cd ./head-373300 # make TARGET_ARCH=3Darmv7 KERNCONF=3DCHROMEBOOK-SNOW buildworld buildkerne= l I tried also with : make TARGET_ARCH=3Darmv6 KERNCONF=3DCHROMEBOOK-SNOW buildworld buildkernel,but it didn't make any difference. ..... ..... -------------------------------------------------------------- >>> World build completed on Wed Jan 17 21:27:04 CET 2024 >>> World built in 14203 seconds, ncpu: 16 -------------------------------------------------------------- make[1]: "/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chromebook/head-373300/Makefile.inc1" line 341: SYSTEM_COMPILER: lib clang will be built for bootstrapping a cross-compiler. make[1]: "/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chromebook/head-373300/Makefile.inc1" line 346: SYSTEM_LINKER: libcl ang will be built for bootstrapping a cross-linker. -------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Kernel build for CHROMEBOOK-SNOW started on Wed Jan 17 21:27:04 CET 202= 4 -------------------------------------------------------------- =3D=3D=3D> CHROMEBOOK-SNOW mkdir -p /usr/obj/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chromebook/head-373300/arm.armv7/sys -------------------------------------------------------------- >>> stage 1: configuring the kernel -------------------------------------------------------------- cd /mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chromebook/head-373300/sys/arm/conf; PATH=3D/usr/obj/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Ch romebook/head-373300/arm.armv7/tmp/bin:/usr/obj/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chrome= book/head-373300/arm.armv 7/tmp/usr/sbin:/usr/obj/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chromebook/head-373300/arm.arm= v7/tmp/usr/bin:/usr/obj/m nt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chromebook/head-373300/arm.armv7/tmp/legacy/usr/sbin:/u= sr/obj/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/ OS/Chromebook/head-373300/arm.armv7/tmp/legacy/usr/bin:/usr/obj/mnt/zroot2/= zroot2/OS/Chromebook/head -373300/arm.armv7/tmp/legacy/bin:/usr/obj/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chromebook/h= ead-373300/arm.armv7/tmp/ legacy/usr/libexec::/sbin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin config -d /usr/obj/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chromebo ok/head-373300/arm.armv7/sys/CHROMEBOOK-SNOW -I '/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chromebook/head-373300/sys/a rm/conf' -I '/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chromebook/head-373300/sys/arm/conf' '/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chro mebook/head-373300/sys/arm/conf/CHROMEBOOK-SNOW' WARNING: duplicate option `DEBUG' encountered. ./head-373300/sys/arm/conf/CHROMEBOOK-SNOW: unknown option "IPI_IRQ_END" / "IPI_IRQ_START / ARM_L2_PIPT" and so on... these options are included inside the file "std.exynos5250" (that I have copied from the old to the new source code). What I'm trying to do to stop these error is to comment the offending lines : nano ./head-373300/sys/arm/samsung/exynos/std.exynos5250 : #options IPI_IRQ_START=3D0 #options IPI_IRQ_END=3D15 #options ARM_L2_PIPT but I suspect that a lot of options will be missing and the more comments I will make,the more the chance that it will not work will increase. ... On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 7:48=E2=80=AFPM Mario Marietto wrote: > Hello. > > Do you have deleted forever the set of packages and ports for FreeBSD 11 > or you keep them stored in DVDs that I can buy or download for a small > amount of money ? If yes,where ? To rebuild everything is out of my > expertise. > > On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 7:15=E2=80=AFPM David Chisnall > wrote: > >> On 15 Jan 2024, at 16:46, Mario Marietto wrote: >> > >> > The ARM Chromebook is based on armv7,it is still recent. >> >> For reference, the ARMv7 architecture was introduced in 2005. The last >> cores that implemented the architecture were released in 2014. This is = not >> a =E2=80=98recent=E2=80=99 architecture, it=E2=80=99s one that=E2=80=99s= 19 years old and has been largely >> dead for several years. >> >> > But let's change perspective for a moment,don't think about the ARM >> Chromebook. My question is : how to upgrade FreeBSD when it goes EOL. >> >> Generally, run `freebsd-update`. This is a very different question from >> =E2=80=98how do I do a new install of an old an unsupported version?' >> >> > I ask this because there is a huge difference here between FreeBSD and >> Linux. Today if you need to use , for example Ubuntu 14.0, you can use i= t >> as is. Yes,there will be a lot of bugs,but it will work without crashes. >> But if you want to use an old FreeBSD system,nothing will work for you. >> So,do you know some methods to install even packages or ports ? You >> know,there are cases when you need to do some experiments so that you ca= n >> keep your machine off the internet,so you aren't scared that someone can >> compromise it. Totally prohibiting the users to use an old system,removi= ng >> ports and packages is not a choice that I approve of. And I'm not the on= ly >> one that thinks like this. >> >> If you want to use an old and unsupported version of FreeBSD, no one is >> stopping you, but: >> >> - You will need to build the releases. The source code is still in git= , >> you can. The scripts for building the release images are right there in >> the repo. Just grab the relevant release or releng branch and go. >> >> - You will need to build packages. Newer versions of the ports tree >> will not be tested with the older release, so you may need to use an old= er >> checkout of the ports tree. Poudriere will build a package repo for you= . >> >> In both cases, if you=E2=80=99re using older versions you almost certain= ly *will* >> have security vulnerabilities. The project strongly advises you not to = do >> this and not to blame us when you install known-insecure software and en= d >> up compromised. >> >> The project does not have enough active contributors to keep maintaining >> things indefinitely. This is why release have a five-year supported >> lifetime. If you want to pick up an old branch and maintain it, you=E2= =80=99re >> welcome to. In the past, companies have picked up old branches and >> maintained them for customers that had a dependency on them. If you wan= t >> to pay someone to maintain an old branch (and have deep pockets) then th= ere >> are probably a few companies that will happily take your money. >> >> Maintaining binaries is a slightly different issue, but it=E2=80=99s not= totally >> unrelated. Keeping old packages around consumes disk space and costs th= e >> project money (remember, every package is mirrored across the CDN, so th= is >> isn=E2=80=99t just a single disk). Even if it were free, philosophicall= y, I think >> making it easy for users to install known-insecure software is a bad ide= a >> but if you want to keep a package repo with out-of-date packages online >> indefinitely then you can. You can run Poudriere and even cross-compile >> from a fairly beefy cloud machine quite easily. >> >> It=E2=80=99s been a while since I did a full package build, but I would = guess >> that you could do a single package build (all ports) for about $50 on a >> cloud VM, more (2-3x) if it=E2=80=99s emulated. Storing the results for= a small >> number of users will cost around $10-20/month. If you think this is an >> important thing to do, then you are absolutely welcome to spend your own >> money on doing it. >> >> David >> >> > > -- > Mario. > --=20 Mario. --000000000000fedfbc060f2c216d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 
Hello to ever=
yone.

I'm trying to copy the Chromebook's SNOW source files =
that have been included on the FreeBSD 11 
revision 269385 to the new Fr=
eeBSD 13 revision 373300. It has compiled correctly world,but when it
st=
arts to compile the kernel,it gives a lot of "unknown option" err=
ors. Is there a way to fix them ? 

# svn co =
http:=
//svn.freebsd.org/base/head@269385 ./head-269385 ; taken from this tuto=
rial :

ht=
tps://wiki.freebsd.org/arm/Chromebook

# svn co htt=
p://svn.freebsd.org/base/head ./head-373300
# cp ./head-269395/sys/arm/conf/CHROMEBOOK-SNOW ./head-373300/sys/arm/conf
# cd ./head-373300
# make TARGET_ARCH=3Darmv7 KERNCONF=3DCHROMEBOOK-SNOW buildworld buildkerne=
l

I tried also with : make TARGET_ARCH=3Darmv6 KERNCONF=
=3DCHROMEBOOK-SNOW buildworld buildkernel,but it 
didn'=
t make any difference.

.....
.....
--------------------------------------------------------------
>>> World build completed on Wed Jan 17 21:27:04 CET 2024
>>> World built in 14203 seconds, ncpu: 16
--------------------------------------------------------------
make[1]: "/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chromebook/head-373300/Makefile.inc1&q=
uot; line 341: SYSTEM_COMPILER: lib
clang will be built for bootstrapping a cross-compiler.
make[1]: "/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chromebook/head-373300/Makefile.inc1&q=
uot; line 346: SYSTEM_LINKER: libcl
ang will be built for bootstrapping a cross-linker.

--------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Kernel build for CHROMEBOOK-SNOW started on Wed Jan 17 21:27:0=
4 CET 2024
--------------------------------------------------------------
=3D=3D=3D> CHROMEBOOK-SNOW
mkdir -p /usr/obj/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chromebook/head-373300/arm.armv7/sys

--------------------------------------------------------------
>>> stage 1: configuring the kernel
--------------------------------------------------------------
cd /mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chromebook/head-373300/sys/arm/conf;  PATH=3D/usr/=
obj/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Ch
romebook/head-373300/arm.armv7/tmp/bin:/usr/obj/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chrome=
book/head-373300/arm.armv
7/tmp/usr/sbin:/usr/obj/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chromebook/head-373300/arm.arm=
v7/tmp/usr/bin:/usr/obj/m
nt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chromebook/head-373300/arm.armv7/tmp/legacy/usr/sbin:/u=
sr/obj/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/
OS/Chromebook/head-373300/arm.armv7/tmp/legacy/usr/bin:/usr/obj/mnt/zroot2/=
zroot2/OS/Chromebook/head
-373300/arm.armv7/tmp/legacy/bin:/usr/obj/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chromebook/h=
ead-373300/arm.armv7/tmp/
legacy/usr/libexec::/sbin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin  config  -d /usr/obj/mnt/=
zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chromebo
ok/head-373300/arm.armv7/sys/CHROMEBOOK-SNOW  -I '/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS=
/Chromebook/head-373300/sys/a
rm/conf' -I '/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chromebook/head-373300/sys/arm/c=
onf'  '/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chro
mebook/head-373300/sys/arm/conf/CHROMEBOOK-SNOW'
WARNING: duplicate option `DEBUG' encountered.


./head-373300/sys/arm/conf/CHROMEBOOK-SNOW: unknown option "IPI_IRQ_EN=
D" / "IPI_IRQ_START / ARM_L2_PIPT"
and so on..=
.

these options are included inside the file "std.ex=
ynos5250" (that I have copied from the old to the new
so=
urce code). What I'm trying to do to stop these error is to comment the=
 offending lines :

nano ./head-373300/sys/arm/samsung/exy=
nos/std.exynos5250 :

#options    IPI_IRQ_START=3D0
#options    IPI_IRQ_END=3D15
#options  =
  ARM_L2_PIPT

but I suspect that a lot= of options will be missing and the more comments I will make,the more the = chance that it will not work will increase. ...

On Mon, Jan 15, 2024= at 7:48=E2=80=AFPM Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello.

Do you have deleted forever the set of packages and ports for FreeBS= D 11 or you keep them stored in DVDs that I can buy or download for a small= amount of money ? If yes,where ? To rebuild everything is out of my expert= ise.

On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 7:15=E2=80=AFPM David Chisnall <= theraven@freebsd.= org> wrote:
On 15 Jan 2024, at 16:46, Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The ARM Chromebook is based on armv7,it is still recent.

For reference, the ARMv7 architecture was introduced in 2005.=C2=A0 The las= t cores that implemented the architecture were released in 2014.=C2=A0 This= is not a =E2=80=98recent=E2=80=99 architecture, it=E2=80=99s one that=E2= =80=99s 19 years old and has been largely dead for several years.

> But let's change perspective for a moment,don't think about th= e ARM Chromebook. My question is : how to upgrade FreeBSD when it goes EOL.=

Generally, run `freebsd-update`.=C2=A0 This is a very different question fr= om =E2=80=98how do I do a new install of an old an unsupported version?'= ;

> I ask this because there is a huge difference here between FreeBSD and= Linux. Today if you need to use , for example Ubuntu 14.0, you can use it = as is. Yes,there will be a lot of bugs,but it will work without crashes.=C2= =A0 But if you want to use an old FreeBSD system,nothing will work for you.= So,do you know some methods to install even packages or ports ? You know,t= here are cases when you need to do some experiments so that you can keep yo= ur machine off the internet,so you aren't scared that someone can compr= omise it. Totally prohibiting the users to use an old system,removing ports= and packages is not a choice that I approve of. And I'm not the only o= ne that thinks like this.

If you want to use an old and unsupported version of FreeBSD, no one is sto= pping you, but:

=C2=A0- You will need to build the releases.=C2=A0 The source code is still= in git, you can.=C2=A0 The scripts for building the release images are rig= ht there in the repo.=C2=A0 Just grab the relevant release or releng branch= and go.

=C2=A0- You will need to build packages.=C2=A0 Newer versions of the ports = tree will not be tested with the older release, so you may need to use an o= lder checkout of the ports tree.=C2=A0 Poudriere will build a package repo = for you.=C2=A0

In both cases, if you=E2=80=99re using older versions you almost certainly = *will* have security vulnerabilities.=C2=A0 The project strongly advises yo= u not to do this and not to blame us when you install known-insecure softwa= re and end up compromised.

The project does not have enough active contributors to keep maintaining th= ings indefinitely.=C2=A0 This is why release have a five-year supported lif= etime.=C2=A0 If you want to pick up an old branch and maintain it, you=E2= =80=99re welcome to.=C2=A0 In the past, companies have picked up old branch= es and maintained them for customers that had a dependency on them.=C2=A0 I= f you want to pay someone to maintain an old branch (and have deep pockets)= then there are probably a few companies that will happily take your money.=

Maintaining binaries is a slightly different issue, but it=E2=80=99s not to= tally unrelated.=C2=A0 Keeping old packages around consumes disk space and = costs the project money (remember, every package is mirrored across the CDN= , so this isn=E2=80=99t just a single disk).=C2=A0 Even if it were free, ph= ilosophically, I think making it easy for users to install known-insecure s= oftware is a bad idea but if you want to keep a package repo with out-of-da= te packages online indefinitely then you can.=C2=A0 You can run Poudriere a= nd even cross-compile from a fairly beefy cloud machine quite easily.

It=E2=80=99s been a while since I did a full package build, but I would gue= ss that you could do a single package build (all ports) for about $50 on a = cloud VM, more (2-3x) if it=E2=80=99s emulated.=C2=A0 Storing the results f= or a small number of users will cost around $10-20/month.=C2=A0 If you thin= k this is an important thing to do, then you are absolutely welcome to spen= d your own money on doing it.

David



--
Mario.


--
Mario.
--000000000000fedfbc060f2c216d-- From nobody Thu Jan 18 22:06:08 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TGGzf3wYdz576gv for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2024 22:06:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-lj1-x232.google.com (mail-lj1-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::232]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TGGzd5BHdz4s1t for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2024 22:06:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-lj1-x232.google.com with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2ccec119587so2327491fa.0 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2024 14:06:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1705615579; x=1706220379; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=pXJ3dY6ZLqDhoUqyMmMZkZGPT7oc5+Tg3yKVUZN1kPM=; b=D/UQQO/R3zw+K5fenXpZ8BXbIrqBgMqKtg4TymTJYznqY1k/9i9lREZVwKo8lWIrAo OKQMMGMasC7ugWHdTSQ6rysA2ZH+xjMZgy2gmF7u3WK9RQbBMmhFGM4u7sLTx8HMDMfG c4RLBbY8Bacdf+RvR2xqe9MFuNNHRj+bOzrXoa9RIBxmDf7I8Zj4UbUscFbhYt49sAO8 Yuvgr5+gD0DN/PcxFtBxm14taJ01s3mQyOCpqCJ52jpqYgqvCpP5xzSwTe+baToRpZrh EoZJtYRGPZtxebca9uhWy0hOMnIYACQZ2i+K2QXe16hAv1q8+r8pnqMSK4WBpf8ogmaa kf+A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1705615579; x=1706220379; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=pXJ3dY6ZLqDhoUqyMmMZkZGPT7oc5+Tg3yKVUZN1kPM=; b=O3fB4SuRSRhMHP7OSOLPJVUvRZgNwoFanvrBWjfbegp4RorxmyFTmlOQVpxMQH7tQP Rdnkq2qjjVYS0zUAOquhMhcKzXrlanty4prmhq4GRFNUrqKliZU1FcJxM5sQy74ckYpE phDVT3Ooq9d/99M9AeeLDWFwceTrVjyzuCTDstuWFBweeRnZL52Uypl2MrLBopuUsPWE UPwIsBYJpTQE3+fYJOekjqrU7KleOHa4SuL9YjvH0qvnf+tUOZw/iBYXuDwdK57N522t ZOWGbpF04mGNoeUD/+F1QZfeMYYlCf8iNp8XH0Gr15hODkyi+AVZaa552CdGvoqr3eAP 9DAA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yzi1fd3MdN8plOlT+l4vXK0MniMfc7IKf8nEyg34Q4nVKBL4eDO fWIe2hWMY1MB2WgqVG6hB6HL5cfwbNC6Cbn64+Eq+dsRiZhPXbwPf47cRN6VjNLI7+dJa2YLP/2 SE1Fgl6Mle5/UCXjeCgVMKPco90TGUhHkPU7fTA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGZcP6eNjR4bYou33Z5k3wz16Xq6dT8rIoYRDvJxfn+9uAvnfuFOX7Y/TfI0aVtbEHsuez2NOoGmdvzjJzP+ZM= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9c19:0:b0:2cd:f341:5150 with SMTP id s25-20020a2e9c19000000b002cdf3415150mr971764lji.13.1705615579512; Thu, 18 Jan 2024 14:06:19 -0800 (PST) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2024 15:06:08 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: How to upgrade an EOL FreeBSD release or how to make it working again To: Mario Marietto Cc: David Chisnall , Mark Millard , John F Carr , freebsd-arm , freebsd-hackers , FreeBSD Mailing List , "freebsd-xen@freebsd.org" , FreeBSD Current , =?UTF-8?Q?Roger_Pau_Monn=C3=A9?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bd9405060f3f9248" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4TGGzd5BHdz4s1t X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] --000000000000bd9405060f3f9248 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jan 17, 2024 at 3:54=E2=80=AFPM Mario Marietto wrote: > Hello to everyone. > > I'm trying to copy the Chromebook's SNOW source files that have been incl= uded on the FreeBSD 11 > revision 269385 to the new FreeBSD 13 revision 373300. It has compiled co= rrectly world,but when it > starts to compile the kernel,it gives a lot of "unknown option" errors. I= s there a way to fix them ? > > # svn co http://svn.freebsd.org/base/head@269385 ./head-269385 ; taken fr= om this tutorial : > > https://wiki.freebsd.org/arm/Chromebook > > # svn co http://svn.freebsd.org/base/head ./head-373300 > # cp ./head-269395/sys/arm/conf/CHROMEBOOK-SNOW ./head-373300/sys/arm/con= f > # cd ./head-373300 > # make TARGET_ARCH=3Darmv7 KERNCONF=3DCHROMEBOOK-SNOW buildworld buildker= nel > > I tried also with : make TARGET_ARCH=3Darmv6 KERNCONF=3DCHROMEBOOK-SNOW b= uildworld buildkernel,but it > didn't make any difference. > > ..... > ..... > -------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> World build completed on Wed Jan 17 21:27:04 CET 2024 > >>> World built in 14203 seconds, ncpu: 16 > -------------------------------------------------------------- > make[1]: "/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chromebook/head-373300/Makefile.inc1" lin= e 341: SYSTEM_COMPILER: lib > clang will be built for bootstrapping a cross-compiler. > make[1]: "/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chromebook/head-373300/Makefile.inc1" lin= e 346: SYSTEM_LINKER: libcl > ang will be built for bootstrapping a cross-linker. > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> Kernel build for CHROMEBOOK-SNOW started on Wed Jan 17 21:27:04 CET 2= 024 > -------------------------------------------------------------- > =3D=3D=3D> CHROMEBOOK-SNOW > mkdir -p /usr/obj/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chromebook/head-373300/arm.armv7/s= ys > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> stage 1: configuring the kernel > -------------------------------------------------------------- > cd /mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chromebook/head-373300/sys/arm/conf; PATH=3D/us= r/obj/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Ch > romebook/head-373300/arm.armv7/tmp/bin:/usr/obj/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chro= mebook/head-373300/arm.armv > 7/tmp/usr/sbin:/usr/obj/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chromebook/head-373300/arm.a= rmv7/tmp/usr/bin:/usr/obj/m > nt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chromebook/head-373300/arm.armv7/tmp/legacy/usr/sbin:= /usr/obj/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/ > OS/Chromebook/head-373300/arm.armv7/tmp/legacy/usr/bin:/usr/obj/mnt/zroot= 2/zroot2/OS/Chromebook/head > -373300/arm.armv7/tmp/legacy/bin:/usr/obj/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chromebook= /head-373300/arm.armv7/tmp/ > legacy/usr/libexec::/sbin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin config -d /usr/obj/mn= t/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chromebo > ok/head-373300/arm.armv7/sys/CHROMEBOOK-SNOW -I '/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/C= hromebook/head-373300/sys/a > rm/conf' -I '/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chromebook/head-373300/sys/arm/conf' = '/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chro > mebook/head-373300/sys/arm/conf/CHROMEBOOK-SNOW' > WARNING: duplicate option `DEBUG' encountered. > > ./head-373300/sys/arm/conf/CHROMEBOOK-SNOW: unknown option "IPI_IRQ_END" = / "IPI_IRQ_START / ARM_L2_PIPT" > > and so on... > > these options are included inside the file "std.exynos5250" (that I have = copied from the old to the new > > source code). What I'm trying to do to stop these error is to comment the= offending lines : > > > nano ./head-373300/sys/arm/samsung/exynos/std.exynos5250 : > > #options IPI_IRQ_START=3D0 > #options IPI_IRQ_END=3D15 > > These likely require changes to adopt exynos to INTRNG. > #options ARM_L2_PIPT > > This is likely a nop. It was for ARMv4/5 only and google tells me exynos5250 was a dual core Cortex A-15, which is armv7. > but I suspect that a lot of options will be missing and the more comments > I will make,the more the chance that it will not work will increase. ... > There's likely a lot of work here... Warner > > On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 7:48=E2=80=AFPM Mario Marietto > wrote: > >> Hello. >> >> Do you have deleted forever the set of packages and ports for FreeBSD 11 >> or you keep them stored in DVDs that I can buy or download for a small >> amount of money ? If yes,where ? To rebuild everything is out of my >> expertise. >> >> On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 7:15=E2=80=AFPM David Chisnall >> wrote: >> >>> On 15 Jan 2024, at 16:46, Mario Marietto wrote= : >>> > >>> > The ARM Chromebook is based on armv7,it is still recent. >>> >>> For reference, the ARMv7 architecture was introduced in 2005. The last >>> cores that implemented the architecture were released in 2014. This is= not >>> a =E2=80=98recent=E2=80=99 architecture, it=E2=80=99s one that=E2=80=99= s 19 years old and has been largely >>> dead for several years. >>> >>> > But let's change perspective for a moment,don't think about the ARM >>> Chromebook. My question is : how to upgrade FreeBSD when it goes EOL. >>> >>> Generally, run `freebsd-update`. This is a very different question fro= m >>> =E2=80=98how do I do a new install of an old an unsupported version?' >>> >>> > I ask this because there is a huge difference here between FreeBSD an= d >>> Linux. Today if you need to use , for example Ubuntu 14.0, you can use = it >>> as is. Yes,there will be a lot of bugs,but it will work without crashes= . >>> But if you want to use an old FreeBSD system,nothing will work for you. >>> So,do you know some methods to install even packages or ports ? You >>> know,there are cases when you need to do some experiments so that you c= an >>> keep your machine off the internet,so you aren't scared that someone ca= n >>> compromise it. Totally prohibiting the users to use an old system,remov= ing >>> ports and packages is not a choice that I approve of. And I'm not the o= nly >>> one that thinks like this. >>> >>> If you want to use an old and unsupported version of FreeBSD, no one is >>> stopping you, but: >>> >>> - You will need to build the releases. The source code is still in >>> git, you can. The scripts for building the release images are right th= ere >>> in the repo. Just grab the relevant release or releng branch and go. >>> >>> - You will need to build packages. Newer versions of the ports tree >>> will not be tested with the older release, so you may need to use an ol= der >>> checkout of the ports tree. Poudriere will build a package repo for yo= u. >>> >>> In both cases, if you=E2=80=99re using older versions you almost certai= nly >>> *will* have security vulnerabilities. The project strongly advises you= not >>> to do this and not to blame us when you install known-insecure software= and >>> end up compromised. >>> >>> The project does not have enough active contributors to keep maintainin= g >>> things indefinitely. This is why release have a five-year supported >>> lifetime. If you want to pick up an old branch and maintain it, you=E2= =80=99re >>> welcome to. In the past, companies have picked up old branches and >>> maintained them for customers that had a dependency on them. If you wa= nt >>> to pay someone to maintain an old branch (and have deep pockets) then t= here >>> are probably a few companies that will happily take your money. >>> >>> Maintaining binaries is a slightly different issue, but it=E2=80=99s no= t totally >>> unrelated. Keeping old packages around consumes disk space and costs t= he >>> project money (remember, every package is mirrored across the CDN, so t= his >>> isn=E2=80=99t just a single disk). Even if it were free, philosophical= ly, I think >>> making it easy for users to install known-insecure software is a bad id= ea >>> but if you want to keep a package repo with out-of-date packages online >>> indefinitely then you can. You can run Poudriere and even cross-compil= e >>> from a fairly beefy cloud machine quite easily. >>> >>> It=E2=80=99s been a while since I did a full package build, but I would= guess >>> that you could do a single package build (all ports) for about $50 on a >>> cloud VM, more (2-3x) if it=E2=80=99s emulated. Storing the results fo= r a small >>> number of users will cost around $10-20/month. If you think this is an >>> important thing to do, then you are absolutely welcome to spend your ow= n >>> money on doing it. >>> >>> David >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Mario. >> > > > -- > Mario. > --000000000000bd9405060f3f9248 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Jan 17, 2024 at 3:54=E2=80=AF= PM Mario Marietto <marietto200= 8@gmail.com> wrote:
He=
llo to everyone.

I'm trying to copy the Chromebook's SNOW so=
urce files that have been included on the FreeBSD 11 
revision 269385 to=
 the new FreeBSD 13 revision 373300. It has compiled correctly world,but wh=
en it
starts to compile the kernel,it gives a lot of "unknown optio=
n" errors. Is there a way to fix them ? 

# svn co http://svn.freebsd.org/base/head@269385 ./head-269385 ; taken fro=
m this tutorial :

https://wiki.freebsd.org/arm/Chromebook
<=
code>
# svn co htt=
p://svn.freebsd.org/base/head ./head-373300
# cp ./head-269395/sys/arm/conf/CHROMEBOOK-SNOW ./head-373300/sys/arm/conf
# cd ./head-373300
# make TARGET_ARCH=3Darmv7 KERNCONF=3DCHROMEBOOK-SNOW buildworld buildkerne=
l

I tried also with : make TARGET_ARCH=3Darmv6 KERNCONF=
=3DCHROMEBOOK-SNOW buildworld buildkernel,but it 
didn'=
t make any difference.

.....
.....
--------------------------------------------------------------
>>> World build completed on Wed Jan 17 21:27:04 CET 2024
>>> World built in 14203 seconds, ncpu: 16
--------------------------------------------------------------
make[1]: "/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chromebook/head-373300/Makefile.inc1&q=
uot; line 341: SYSTEM_COMPILER: lib
clang will be built for bootstrapping a cross-compiler.
make[1]: "/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chromebook/head-373300/Makefile.inc1&q=
uot; line 346: SYSTEM_LINKER: libcl
ang will be built for bootstrapping a cross-linker.

--------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Kernel build for CHROMEBOOK-SNOW started on Wed Jan 17 21:27:0=
4 CET 2024
--------------------------------------------------------------
=3D=3D=3D> CHROMEBOOK-SNOW
mkdir -p /usr/obj/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chromebook/head-373300/arm.armv7/sys

--------------------------------------------------------------
>>> stage 1: configuring the kernel
--------------------------------------------------------------
cd /mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chromebook/head-373300/sys/arm/conf;  PATH=3D/usr/=
obj/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Ch
romebook/head-373300/arm.armv7/tmp/bin:/usr/obj/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chrome=
book/head-373300/arm.armv
7/tmp/usr/sbin:/usr/obj/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chromebook/head-373300/arm.arm=
v7/tmp/usr/bin:/usr/obj/m
nt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chromebook/head-373300/arm.armv7/tmp/legacy/usr/sbin:/u=
sr/obj/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/
OS/Chromebook/head-373300/arm.armv7/tmp/legacy/usr/bin:/usr/obj/mnt/zroot2/=
zroot2/OS/Chromebook/head
-373300/arm.armv7/tmp/legacy/bin:/usr/obj/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chromebook/h=
ead-373300/arm.armv7/tmp/
legacy/usr/libexec::/sbin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin  config  -d /usr/obj/mnt/=
zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chromebo
ok/head-373300/arm.armv7/sys/CHROMEBOOK-SNOW  -I '/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS=
/Chromebook/head-373300/sys/a
rm/conf' -I '/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chromebook/head-373300/sys/arm/c=
onf'  '/mnt/zroot2/zroot2/OS/Chro
mebook/head-373300/sys/arm/conf/CHROMEBOOK-SNOW'
WARNING: duplicate option `DEBUG' encountered.


./head-373300/sys/arm/conf/CHROMEBOOK-SNOW: unknown option "IPI_IRQ_EN=
D" / "IPI_IRQ_START / ARM_L2_PIPT"
and so on..=
.

these options are included inside the file "std.ex=
ynos5250" (that I have copied from the old to the new
so=
urce code). What I'm trying to do to stop these error is to comment the=
 offending lines :

nano ./head-373300/sys/arm/samsung/exy=
nos/std.exynos5250 :

#options    IPI_IRQ_START=3D0
#options    IPI_IRQ_END=3D15

These likely require changes= to adopt exynos to INTRNG.
=C2=A0
#optio=
ns    ARM_L2_PIPT
This is likely a= nop. It was for ARMv4/5 only and google tells me exynos5250 was a dual cor= e Cortex A-15, which is armv7.

=C2=A0
but I susp= ect that a lot of options will be missing and the more comments I will make= ,the more the chance that it will not work will increase. ...

There's likely a lot of work here...

Warner
=C2=A0

On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 7:48=E2=80=AFPM Mario Marietto = <marietto200= 8@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello.

Do you hav= e deleted forever the set of packages and ports for FreeBSD 11 or you keep = them stored in DVDs that I can buy or download for a small amount of money = ? If yes,where ? To rebuild everything is out of my expertise.

On= Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 7:15=E2=80=AFPM David Chisnall <theraven@freebsd.org> wrote:=
On 15 Jan 2024,= at 16:46, Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The ARM Chromebook is based on armv7,it is still recent.

For reference, the ARMv7 architecture was introduced in 2005.=C2=A0 The las= t cores that implemented the architecture were released in 2014.=C2=A0 This= is not a =E2=80=98recent=E2=80=99 architecture, it=E2=80=99s one that=E2= =80=99s 19 years old and has been largely dead for several years.

> But let's change perspective for a moment,don't think about th= e ARM Chromebook. My question is : how to upgrade FreeBSD when it goes EOL.=

Generally, run `freebsd-update`.=C2=A0 This is a very different question fr= om =E2=80=98how do I do a new install of an old an unsupported version?'= ;

> I ask this because there is a huge difference here between FreeBSD and= Linux. Today if you need to use , for example Ubuntu 14.0, you can use it = as is. Yes,there will be a lot of bugs,but it will work without crashes.=C2= =A0 But if you want to use an old FreeBSD system,nothing will work for you.= So,do you know some methods to install even packages or ports ? You know,t= here are cases when you need to do some experiments so that you can keep yo= ur machine off the internet,so you aren't scared that someone can compr= omise it. Totally prohibiting the users to use an old system,removing ports= and packages is not a choice that I approve of. And I'm not the only o= ne that thinks like this.

If you want to use an old and unsupported version of FreeBSD, no one is sto= pping you, but:

=C2=A0- You will need to build the releases.=C2=A0 The source code is still= in git, you can.=C2=A0 The scripts for building the release images are rig= ht there in the repo.=C2=A0 Just grab the relevant release or releng branch= and go.

=C2=A0- You will need to build packages.=C2=A0 Newer versions of the ports = tree will not be tested with the older release, so you may need to use an o= lder checkout of the ports tree.=C2=A0 Poudriere will build a package repo = for you.=C2=A0

In both cases, if you=E2=80=99re using older versions you almost certainly = *will* have security vulnerabilities.=C2=A0 The project strongly advises yo= u not to do this and not to blame us when you install known-insecure softwa= re and end up compromised.

The project does not have enough active contributors to keep maintaining th= ings indefinitely.=C2=A0 This is why release have a five-year supported lif= etime.=C2=A0 If you want to pick up an old branch and maintain it, you=E2= =80=99re welcome to.=C2=A0 In the past, companies have picked up old branch= es and maintained them for customers that had a dependency on them.=C2=A0 I= f you want to pay someone to maintain an old branch (and have deep pockets)= then there are probably a few companies that will happily take your money.=

Maintaining binaries is a slightly different issue, but it=E2=80=99s not to= tally unrelated.=C2=A0 Keeping old packages around consumes disk space and = costs the project money (remember, every package is mirrored across the CDN= , so this isn=E2=80=99t just a single disk).=C2=A0 Even if it were free, ph= ilosophically, I think making it easy for users to install known-insecure s= oftware is a bad idea but if you want to keep a package repo with out-of-da= te packages online indefinitely then you can.=C2=A0 You can run Poudriere a= nd even cross-compile from a fairly beefy cloud machine quite easily.

It=E2=80=99s been a while since I did a full package build, but I would gue= ss that you could do a single package build (all ports) for about $50 on a = cloud VM, more (2-3x) if it=E2=80=99s emulated.=C2=A0 Storing the results f= or a small number of users will cost around $10-20/month.=C2=A0 If you thin= k this is an important thing to do, then you are absolutely welcome to spen= d your own money on doing it.

David



--
Mario.


--
Mario.
--000000000000bd9405060f3f9248-- From nobody Fri Jan 19 11:10:47 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TGcNr2XFQz2tqhv; Fri, 19 Jan 2024 11:10:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rozhuk.im@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wr1-x42d.google.com (mail-wr1-x42d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42d]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TGcNq2TdXz4cbv; Fri, 19 Jan 2024 11:10:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rozhuk.im@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=mQtbMyum; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of rozhuk.im@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::42d as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=rozhuk.im@gmail.com Received: by mail-wr1-x42d.google.com with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-33921b8988fso318699f8f.3; Fri, 19 Jan 2024 03:10:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1705662649; x=1706267449; darn=freebsd.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:message-id:subject:cc:to :date:from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=f74U4ZW/gRhjC5Kr5GZaLWL1OfKxzRZp7MIJDnCDrHQ=; b=mQtbMyumo+rwEmupSQmcuNKFcEbQ9JbqT6uTNb+sk/PlcW0fxUXxp8HCkkIlawKI+J LW7Q+YaSPyS+2U001wQZSBplKqUaExLJK7JAOM3tjYnpdN586JksFjJerKjBvJboQ1C4 bg6quhcwnyFDJZxkrqB5k9RPcCxAH3Zs8lm+MzJnES10dhkcPybXxIQiqPjN9qgdVz72 ZCmBBXtdC8g86nPsRexuolmnub2oY/pckmCUCwFW0H/gqvrBnIKV0wQsXjvoxJgJNe6l K+OSHS7RV9PE3dnHOcXfqaGzpd7oM999wU4f8QDuLQjTT70WXRdoj9l58a2swJfpGXgw oNuw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1705662649; x=1706267449; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:message-id:subject:cc:to :date:from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=f74U4ZW/gRhjC5Kr5GZaLWL1OfKxzRZp7MIJDnCDrHQ=; b=KMoEjkxRI8he6swjm48np4+iKchoGKAZ4LpoZJ5P4/ZeAdnhTFCCW4XFvOkLF7HCd3 45BM3O9rY9bIzVFIPZqPCSw4mlCBFc4MR42hp5lBYPxmJdFWgibAw6B8GbRyzp5lVGop t8yxOqnQZjU1RMkTa4VYm/4C4XW/P8nhJD+UAOQ3HCu+cGYjkDsD3bgFXZf0wJMn6HJn npSLGHVp5+RSa8oW2221yi93tU3bwdtNSQoICHxdO8ym8/coy2RkAto6K1Ftdy5Zj9bH 1BlK/DKEO/Y+pYJkgYxxel+oNl6KCI8kCldIMrX+o8U+W1NfsIqTjigEY+rglpQQ/2IK kT6w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzVqTkPVlxz2t4ZnS/0MHBaklDavM0MNznoNSbJRb1tBAwvf7rY +3rWkHRplGfKmbrrTxNkyhffyA9Nt6+suvNHL+2hGGvf6NT6zLcpLsZZ1tN1/Sc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGKKyzp1IMrhXnyTln7RLrMHZ5KqTiOfjNfp2DY2TYQWRfS5z2omJXkWgBI6Q21YPk99zYyBA== X-Received: by 2002:adf:f645:0:b0:337:c654:c822 with SMTP id x5-20020adff645000000b00337c654c822mr1486738wrp.127.1705662649375; Fri, 19 Jan 2024 03:10:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from rimwks.local ([2001:470:1f15:3d8:80e3:6e27:b43a:1e50]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a1-20020a5d5081000000b00337d9b772c6sm1753180wrt.37.2024.01.19.03.10.48 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 19 Jan 2024 03:10:49 -0800 (PST) From: Rozhuk Ivan X-Google-Original-From: Rozhuk Ivan Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2024 13:10:47 +0200 To: FreeBSD Hackers Cc: rozhuk.im@gmail.com, FreeBSD Mailing List Subject: kcmp implementation for mesa Message-ID: <20240119131047.6975f574@rimwks.local> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 4.1.1 (GTK 3.24.38; amd64-portbld-freebsd14.0) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36:c]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20230601]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[gmail.com,freebsd.org]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org,freebsd-ports@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::42d:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4TGcNq2TdXz4cbv Hi! graphics/mesa-* uses SYS_kcmp [1] to compare two fds: int os_same_file_description(int fd1, int fd2) { pid_t pid = getpid(); /* Same file descriptor trivially implies same file description */ if (fd1 == fd2) return 0; return syscall(SYS_kcmp, pid, pid, KCMP_FILE, fd1, fd2); } FreeBSD does not implemet this and we got in terminal: "amdgpu: os_same_file_description couldn't determine if two DRM fds reference the same file description." Mesa say: /* DRM file descriptors, file descriptions and buffer sharing. * * amdgpu_device_initialize first argument is a file descriptor (fd) * representing a specific GPU. * If a fd is duplicated using os_dupfd_cloexec, * the file description will remain the same (os_same_file_description will * return 0). * But if the same device is re-opened, the fd and the file description will * be different. * * amdgpu_screen_winsys's fd tracks the file description which was * given to amdgpu_winsys_create. This is the fd used by the application * using the driver and may be used in other ioctl (eg: drmModeAddFB) * * amdgpu_winsys's fd is the file description used to initialize the * device handle in libdrm_amdgpu. * * The 2 fds can be different, even in systems with a single GPU, eg: if * radv is initialized before radeonsi. * * This fd tracking is useful for buffer sharing because KMS/GEM handles are * specific to a DRM file description, i.e. the same handle value may refer * to different underlying BOs in different DRM file descriptions. * As an example, if an app wants to use drmModeAddFB it'll need a KMS handle * valid for its fd (== amdgpu_screen_winsys::fd). * If both fds are identical, there's nothing to do: bo->u.real.kms_handle * can be used directly (see amdgpu_bo_get_handle). * If they're different, the BO has to be exported from the device fd as * a dma-buf, then imported from the app fd as a KMS handle. */ I do few checks with dup() and os_dupfd_cloexec() and code show that fd equal. Does this implementation will do that mesa expects? #include #include int os_same_file_description(int fd1, int fd2) { struct kinfo_file kif1, kif2; /* Same file descriptor trivially implies same file description */ if (fd1 == fd2) return (0); kif1.kf_structsize = sizeof(kif1); kif2.kf_structsize = sizeof(kif2); if (-1 == fcntl(fd1, F_KINFO, &kif1) || -1 == fcntl(fd2, F_KINFO, &kif2)) return (-1); if (kif1.kf_type != kif2.kf_type || 0 != memcmp(&kif1.kf_path, &kif2.kf_path, sizeof(kif1.kf_path))) return (3); switch (kif1.kf_type) { case KF_TYPE_VNODE: if (0 == memcmp(&kif1.kf_un.kf_file, &kif2.kf_un.kf_file, sizeof(kif1.kf_un.kf_file))) return (0); return (3); case KF_TYPE_SOCKET: if (0 == memcmp(&kif1.kf_un.kf_sock, &kif2.kf_un.kf_sock, sizeof(kif1.kf_un.kf_sock))) return (0); return (3); case KF_TYPE_PIPE: if (0 == memcmp(&kif1.kf_un.kf_pipe, &kif2.kf_un.kf_pipe, sizeof(kif1.kf_un.kf_pipe))) return (0); return (3); //case KF_TYPE_FIFO: case KF_TYPE_KQUEUE: if (0 == memcmp(&kif1.kf_un.kf_kqueue, &kif2.kf_un.kf_kqueue, sizeof(kif1.kf_un.kf_kqueue))) return (0); return (3); //case KF_TYPE_MQUEUE: //case KF_TYPE_SHM: case KF_TYPE_SEM: if (0 == memcmp(&kif1.kf_un.kf_sem, &kif2.kf_un.kf_sem, sizeof(kif1.kf_un.kf_sem))) return (0); return (3); case KF_TYPE_PTS: if (0 == memcmp(&kif1.kf_un.kf_pts, &kif2.kf_un.kf_pts, sizeof(kif1.kf_un.kf_pts))) return (0); return (3); case KF_TYPE_PROCDESC: if (0 == memcmp(&kif1.kf_un.kf_proc, &kif2.kf_un.kf_proc, sizeof(kif1.kf_un.kf_proc))) return (0); return (3); //case KF_TYPE_DEV: case KF_TYPE_EVENTFD: if (0 == memcmp(&kif1.kf_un.kf_eventfd, &kif2.kf_un.kf_eventfd, sizeof(kif1.kf_un.kf_eventfd))) return (0); return (3); case KF_TYPE_TIMERFD: if (0 == memcmp(&kif1.kf_un.kf_timerfd, &kif2.kf_un.kf_timerfd, sizeof(kif1.kf_un.kf_timerfd))) return (0); return (3); } /* Otherwise we can't tell */ return (-1); } Refs: 1. https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/kcmp.2.html From nobody Fri Jan 19 18:34:31 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TGpF32X0bz576Lp; 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Fri, 19 Jan 2024 10:34:44 -0800 (PST) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20240119131047.6975f574@rimwks.local> In-Reply-To: <20240119131047.6975f574@rimwks.local> From: Michael Zhilin Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2024 21:34:31 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: kcmp implementation for mesa To: Rozhuk Ivan Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , FreeBSD Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e07473060f50bb6c" X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20230601]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::535:from]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROMTLD(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org,freebsd-ports@freebsd.org]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[mizhka]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4TGpF22WQ5z4dvj --000000000000e07473060f50bb6c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Ivan, Looks good. Could you please put patch on reviews.freebsd.org? Thx, Michael On Fri, 19 Jan 2024, 14:11 Rozhuk Ivan, wrote: > Hi! > > > graphics/mesa-* uses SYS_kcmp [1] to compare two fds: > > int > os_same_file_description(int fd1, int fd2) > { > pid_t pid = getpid(); > > /* Same file descriptor trivially implies same file description */ > if (fd1 == fd2) > return 0; > > return syscall(SYS_kcmp, pid, pid, KCMP_FILE, fd1, fd2); > } > > FreeBSD does not implemet this and we got in terminal: > "amdgpu: os_same_file_description couldn't determine if two DRM fds > reference the same file description." > > > Mesa say: > /* DRM file descriptors, file descriptions and buffer sharing. > * > * amdgpu_device_initialize first argument is a file descriptor (fd) > * representing a specific GPU. > * If a fd is duplicated using os_dupfd_cloexec, > * the file description will remain the same (os_same_file_description will > * return 0). > * But if the same device is re-opened, the fd and the file description > will > * be different. > * > * amdgpu_screen_winsys's fd tracks the file description which was > * given to amdgpu_winsys_create. This is the fd used by the application > * using the driver and may be used in other ioctl (eg: drmModeAddFB) > * > * amdgpu_winsys's fd is the file description used to initialize the > * device handle in libdrm_amdgpu. > * > * The 2 fds can be different, even in systems with a single GPU, eg: if > * radv is initialized before radeonsi. > * > * This fd tracking is useful for buffer sharing because KMS/GEM handles > are > * specific to a DRM file description, i.e. the same handle value may refer > * to different underlying BOs in different DRM file descriptions. > * As an example, if an app wants to use drmModeAddFB it'll need a KMS > handle > * valid for its fd (== amdgpu_screen_winsys::fd). > * If both fds are identical, there's nothing to do: bo->u.real.kms_handle > * can be used directly (see amdgpu_bo_get_handle). > * If they're different, the BO has to be exported from the device fd as > * a dma-buf, then imported from the app fd as a KMS handle. > */ > > > > I do few checks with dup() and os_dupfd_cloexec() and code show that fd > equal. > > Does this implementation will do that mesa expects? > > > #include > #include > > int > os_same_file_description(int fd1, int fd2) { > struct kinfo_file kif1, kif2; > > /* Same file descriptor trivially implies same file description */ > if (fd1 == fd2) > return (0); > > kif1.kf_structsize = sizeof(kif1); > kif2.kf_structsize = sizeof(kif2); > if (-1 == fcntl(fd1, F_KINFO, &kif1) || > -1 == fcntl(fd2, F_KINFO, &kif2)) > return (-1); > > if (kif1.kf_type != kif2.kf_type || > 0 != memcmp(&kif1.kf_path, &kif2.kf_path, > sizeof(kif1.kf_path))) > return (3); > > switch (kif1.kf_type) { > case KF_TYPE_VNODE: > if (0 == memcmp(&kif1.kf_un.kf_file, &kif2.kf_un.kf_file, > sizeof(kif1.kf_un.kf_file))) > return (0); > return (3); > case KF_TYPE_SOCKET: > if (0 == memcmp(&kif1.kf_un.kf_sock, &kif2.kf_un.kf_sock, > sizeof(kif1.kf_un.kf_sock))) > return (0); > return (3); > case KF_TYPE_PIPE: > if (0 == memcmp(&kif1.kf_un.kf_pipe, &kif2.kf_un.kf_pipe, > sizeof(kif1.kf_un.kf_pipe))) > return (0); > return (3); > //case KF_TYPE_FIFO: > case KF_TYPE_KQUEUE: > if (0 == memcmp(&kif1.kf_un.kf_kqueue, > &kif2.kf_un.kf_kqueue, > sizeof(kif1.kf_un.kf_kqueue))) > return (0); > return (3); > //case KF_TYPE_MQUEUE: > //case KF_TYPE_SHM: > case KF_TYPE_SEM: > if (0 == memcmp(&kif1.kf_un.kf_sem, &kif2.kf_un.kf_sem, > sizeof(kif1.kf_un.kf_sem))) > return (0); > return (3); > case KF_TYPE_PTS: > if (0 == memcmp(&kif1.kf_un.kf_pts, &kif2.kf_un.kf_pts, > sizeof(kif1.kf_un.kf_pts))) > return (0); > return (3); > case KF_TYPE_PROCDESC: > if (0 == memcmp(&kif1.kf_un.kf_proc, &kif2.kf_un.kf_proc, > sizeof(kif1.kf_un.kf_proc))) > return (0); > return (3); > //case KF_TYPE_DEV: > case KF_TYPE_EVENTFD: > if (0 == memcmp(&kif1.kf_un.kf_eventfd, > &kif2.kf_un.kf_eventfd, > sizeof(kif1.kf_un.kf_eventfd))) > return (0); > return (3); > case KF_TYPE_TIMERFD: > if (0 == memcmp(&kif1.kf_un.kf_timerfd, > &kif2.kf_un.kf_timerfd, > sizeof(kif1.kf_un.kf_timerfd))) > return (0); > return (3); > } > /* Otherwise we can't tell */ > return (-1); > } > > > Refs: > 1. https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/kcmp.2.html > > > --000000000000e07473060f50bb6c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Ivan,=C2=A0

Looks good. Could you please put patch on reviews.freebsd.org?=C2=A0

Thx,=C2=A0
Michael

On Fri, 19 J= an 2024, 14:11 Rozhuk Ivan, <rozh= uk.im@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi!<= br>

graphics/mesa-* uses SYS_kcmp [1] to compare two fds:

int
os_same_file_description(int fd1, int fd2)
{
=C2=A0 =C2=A0pid_t pid =3D getpid();

=C2=A0 =C2=A0/* Same file descriptor trivially implies same file descriptio= n */
=C2=A0 =C2=A0if (fd1 =3D=3D fd2)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 return 0;

=C2=A0 =C2=A0return syscall(SYS_kcmp, pid, pid, KCMP_FILE, fd1, fd2);
}

FreeBSD does not implemet this and we got in terminal:
"amdgpu: os_same_file_description couldn't determine if two DRM fd= s reference the same file description."


Mesa say:
/* DRM file descriptors, file descriptions and buffer sharing.
=C2=A0*
=C2=A0* amdgpu_device_initialize first argument is a file descriptor (fd) =C2=A0* representing a specific GPU.
=C2=A0* If a fd is duplicated using os_dupfd_cloexec,
=C2=A0* the file description will remain the same (os_same_file_description= will
=C2=A0* return 0).
=C2=A0* But if the same device is re-opened, the fd and the file descriptio= n will
=C2=A0* be different.
=C2=A0*
=C2=A0* amdgpu_screen_winsys's fd tracks the file description which was=
=C2=A0* given to amdgpu_winsys_create. This is the fd used by the applicati= on
=C2=A0* using the driver and may be used in other ioctl (eg: drmModeAddFB)<= br> =C2=A0*
=C2=A0* amdgpu_winsys's fd is the file description used to initialize t= he
=C2=A0* device handle in libdrm_amdgpu.
=C2=A0*
=C2=A0* The 2 fds can be different, even in systems with a single GPU, eg: = if
=C2=A0* radv is initialized before radeonsi.
=C2=A0*
=C2=A0* This fd tracking is useful for buffer sharing because KMS/GEM handl= es are
=C2=A0* specific to a DRM file description, i.e. the same handle value may = refer
=C2=A0* to different underlying BOs in different DRM file descriptions.
=C2=A0* As an example, if an app wants to use drmModeAddFB it'll need a= KMS handle
=C2=A0* valid for its fd (=3D=3D amdgpu_screen_winsys::fd).
=C2=A0* If both fds are identical, there's nothing to do: bo->u.real= .kms_handle
=C2=A0* can be used directly (see amdgpu_bo_get_handle).
=C2=A0* If they're different, the BO has to be exported from the device= fd as
=C2=A0* a dma-buf, then imported from the app fd as a KMS handle.
=C2=A0*/



I do few checks with dup() and os_dupfd_cloexec() and code show that fd equ= al.

Does this implementation will do that mesa expects?


#include <sys/user.h>
#include <fcntl.h>

int
os_same_file_description(int fd1, int fd2) {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 struct kinfo_file kif1, kif2;

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /* Same file descriptor trivially implies same = file description */
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 if (fd1 =3D=3D fd2)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 return (0);

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 kif1.kf_structsize =3D sizeof(kif1);
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 kif2.kf_structsize =3D sizeof(kif2);
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 if (-1 =3D=3D fcntl(fd1, F_KINFO, &kif1) ||=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -1 =3D=3D fcntl(fd2, F_KINFO, &am= p;kif2))
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 return (-1);

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 if (kif1.kf_type !=3D kif2.kf_type ||
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 0 !=3D memcmp(&kif1.kf_path, = &kif2.kf_path, sizeof(kif1.kf_path)))
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 return (3);

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 switch (kif1.kf_type) {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 case KF_TYPE_VNODE:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 if (0 =3D=3D memcmp= (&kif1.kf_un.kf_file, &kif2.kf_un.kf_file,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 sizeo= f(kif1.kf_un.kf_file)))
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 return (0);
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 return (3);
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 case KF_TYPE_SOCKET:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 if (0 =3D=3D memcmp= (&kif1.kf_un.kf_sock, &kif2.kf_un.kf_sock,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 sizeo= f(kif1.kf_un.kf_sock)))
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 return (0);
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 return (3);
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 case KF_TYPE_PIPE:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 if (0 =3D=3D memcmp= (&kif1.kf_un.kf_pipe, &kif2.kf_un.kf_pipe,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 sizeo= f(kif1.kf_un.kf_pipe)))
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 return (0);
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 return (3);
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 //case KF_TYPE_FIFO:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 case KF_TYPE_KQUEUE:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 if (0 =3D=3D memcmp= (&kif1.kf_un.kf_kqueue, &kif2.kf_un.kf_kqueue,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 sizeo= f(kif1.kf_un.kf_kqueue)))
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 return (0);
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 return (3);
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 //case KF_TYPE_MQUEUE:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 //case KF_TYPE_SHM:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 case KF_TYPE_SEM:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 if (0 =3D=3D memcmp= (&kif1.kf_un.kf_sem, &kif2.kf_un.kf_sem,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 sizeo= f(kif1.kf_un.kf_sem)))
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 return (0);
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 return (3);
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 case KF_TYPE_PTS:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 if (0 =3D=3D memcmp= (&kif1.kf_un.kf_pts, &kif2.kf_un.kf_pts,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 sizeo= f(kif1.kf_un.kf_pts)))
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 return (0);
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 return (3);
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 case KF_TYPE_PROCDESC:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 if (0 =3D=3D memcmp= (&kif1.kf_un.kf_proc, &kif2.kf_un.kf_proc,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 sizeo= f(kif1.kf_un.kf_proc)))
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 return (0);
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 return (3);
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 //case KF_TYPE_DEV:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 case KF_TYPE_EVENTFD:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 if (0 =3D=3D memcmp= (&kif1.kf_un.kf_eventfd, &kif2.kf_un.kf_eventfd,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 sizeo= f(kif1.kf_un.kf_eventfd)))
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 return (0);
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 return (3);
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 case KF_TYPE_TIMERFD:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 if (0 =3D=3D memcmp= (&kif1.kf_un.kf_timerfd, &kif2.kf_un.kf_timerfd,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 sizeo= f(kif1.kf_un.kf_timerfd)))
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 return (0);
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 return (3);
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /* Otherwise we can't tell */
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 return (-1);
}


Refs:
1. https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2= /kcmp.2.html


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Could you please put patch on reviews.freebsd.org? > > Thx, > Michael > > On Fri, 19 Jan 2024, 14:11 Rozhuk Ivan, wrote: > >> Hi! >> >> >> graphics/mesa-* uses SYS_kcmp [1] to compare two fds: >> >> int >> os_same_file_description(int fd1, int fd2) >> { >> pid_t pid = getpid(); >> >> /* Same file descriptor trivially implies same file description */ >> if (fd1 == fd2) >> return 0; >> >> return syscall(SYS_kcmp, pid, pid, KCMP_FILE, fd1, fd2); >> } >> >> FreeBSD does not implemet this and we got in terminal: >> "amdgpu: os_same_file_description couldn't determine if two DRM fds >> reference the same file description." >> >> >> Mesa say: >> /* DRM file descriptors, file descriptions and buffer sharing. >> * >> * amdgpu_device_initialize first argument is a file descriptor (fd) >> * representing a specific GPU. >> * If a fd is duplicated using os_dupfd_cloexec, >> * the file description will remain the same (os_same_file_description >> will >> * return 0). >> * But if the same device is re-opened, the fd and the file description >> will >> * be different. >> * >> * amdgpu_screen_winsys's fd tracks the file description which was >> * given to amdgpu_winsys_create. This is the fd used by the application >> * using the driver and may be used in other ioctl (eg: drmModeAddFB) >> * >> * amdgpu_winsys's fd is the file description used to initialize the >> * device handle in libdrm_amdgpu. >> * >> * The 2 fds can be different, even in systems with a single GPU, eg: if >> * radv is initialized before radeonsi. >> * >> * This fd tracking is useful for buffer sharing because KMS/GEM handles >> are >> * specific to a DRM file description, i.e. the same handle value may >> refer >> * to different underlying BOs in different DRM file descriptions. >> * As an example, if an app wants to use drmModeAddFB it'll need a KMS >> handle >> * valid for its fd (== amdgpu_screen_winsys::fd). >> * If both fds are identical, there's nothing to do: >> bo->u.real.kms_handle >> * can be used directly (see amdgpu_bo_get_handle). >> * If they're different, the BO has to be exported from the device fd as >> * a dma-buf, then imported from the app fd as a KMS handle. >> */ >> >> >> >> I do few checks with dup() and os_dupfd_cloexec() and code show that fd >> equal. >> >> Does this implementation will do that mesa expects? >> >> >> #include >> #include >> >> int >> os_same_file_description(int fd1, int fd2) { >> struct kinfo_file kif1, kif2; >> >> /* Same file descriptor trivially implies same file description >> */ >> if (fd1 == fd2) >> return (0); >> >> kif1.kf_structsize = sizeof(kif1); >> kif2.kf_structsize = sizeof(kif2); >> if (-1 == fcntl(fd1, F_KINFO, &kif1) || >> -1 == fcntl(fd2, F_KINFO, &kif2)) >> return (-1); >> >> if (kif1.kf_type != kif2.kf_type || >> 0 != memcmp(&kif1.kf_path, &kif2.kf_path, >> sizeof(kif1.kf_path))) >> return (3); >> >> switch (kif1.kf_type) { >> case KF_TYPE_VNODE: >> if (0 == memcmp(&kif1.kf_un.kf_file, &kif2.kf_un.kf_file, >> sizeof(kif1.kf_un.kf_file))) >> return (0); >> return (3); >> case KF_TYPE_SOCKET: >> if (0 == memcmp(&kif1.kf_un.kf_sock, &kif2.kf_un.kf_sock, >> sizeof(kif1.kf_un.kf_sock))) >> return (0); >> return (3); >> case KF_TYPE_PIPE: >> if (0 == memcmp(&kif1.kf_un.kf_pipe, &kif2.kf_un.kf_pipe, >> sizeof(kif1.kf_un.kf_pipe))) >> return (0); >> return (3); >> //case KF_TYPE_FIFO: >> case KF_TYPE_KQUEUE: >> if (0 == memcmp(&kif1.kf_un.kf_kqueue, >> &kif2.kf_un.kf_kqueue, >> sizeof(kif1.kf_un.kf_kqueue))) >> return (0); >> return (3); >> //case KF_TYPE_MQUEUE: >> //case KF_TYPE_SHM: >> case KF_TYPE_SEM: >> if (0 == memcmp(&kif1.kf_un.kf_sem, &kif2.kf_un.kf_sem, >> sizeof(kif1.kf_un.kf_sem))) >> return (0); >> return (3); >> case KF_TYPE_PTS: >> if (0 == memcmp(&kif1.kf_un.kf_pts, &kif2.kf_un.kf_pts, >> sizeof(kif1.kf_un.kf_pts))) >> return (0); >> return (3); >> case KF_TYPE_PROCDESC: >> if (0 == memcmp(&kif1.kf_un.kf_proc, &kif2.kf_un.kf_proc, >> sizeof(kif1.kf_un.kf_proc))) >> return (0); >> return (3); >> //case KF_TYPE_DEV: >> case KF_TYPE_EVENTFD: >> if (0 == memcmp(&kif1.kf_un.kf_eventfd, >> &kif2.kf_un.kf_eventfd, >> sizeof(kif1.kf_un.kf_eventfd))) >> return (0); >> return (3); >> case KF_TYPE_TIMERFD: >> if (0 == memcmp(&kif1.kf_un.kf_timerfd, >> &kif2.kf_un.kf_timerfd, >> sizeof(kif1.kf_un.kf_timerfd))) >> return (0); >> return (3); >> } >> /* Otherwise we can't tell */ >> return (-1); >> } >> >> >> Refs: >> 1. https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/kcmp.2.html >> >> >> > -- Mateusz Guzik From nobody Fri Jan 19 18:50:04 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TGpZm1MlZz577sH; 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Fri, 19 Jan 2024 18:50:07 +0000 (UTC) From: Jan Beich To: Rozhuk Ivan Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , FreeBSD Mailing List Subject: Re: kcmp implementation for mesa In-Reply-To: <20240119131047.6975f574@rimwks.local> (Rozhuk Ivan's message of "Fri, 19 Jan 2024 13:10:47 +0200") References: <20240119131047.6975f574@rimwks.local> Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2024 19:50:04 +0100 Message-ID: <5xzp-noo3-wny@FreeBSD.org> List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Rozhuk Ivan writes: > Hi! > > > graphics/mesa-* uses SYS_kcmp [1] to compare two fds: > > int > os_same_file_description(int fd1, int fd2) > { > pid_t pid = getpid(); > > /* Same file descriptor trivially implies same file description */ > if (fd1 == fd2) > return 0; > > return syscall(SYS_kcmp, pid, pid, KCMP_FILE, fd1, fd2); > } > > FreeBSD does not implemet this and we got in terminal: > "amdgpu: os_same_file_description couldn't determine if two DRM fds reference the same file description." See https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mesa/mesa/-/merge_requests/6881 It's already applied in graphics/mesa-devel. From nobody Fri Jan 19 19:24:46 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TGqLp2CnWz57CZ9; Fri, 19 Jan 2024 19:24:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jbeich@freebsd.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [96.47.72.132]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "freefall.freebsd.org", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TGqLp1jzHz4psZ; Fri, 19 Jan 2024 19:24:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jbeich@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1705692290; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=7juZdns7Df0zVtrAYvrRUAAMVpffyd/YNlOrlaTBwBU=; b=j4lggMzgWAxkcFHOggrtHuPidClXqETFa5lj1aVSpLkb6MniyVVhB6vSgTSQfg75vGPyrn jSfa8JbhDfe4fKs70jkiImO4I364BbqwvoDkMOP2ELb9m0DhcWuRfEDk5ATmNVMbK9Cx1Y dlroUZs7dTWiTgcx31nMxGGYiaKumMwn3OmYkOSdqtXPLLGGcjcUbZc1etnCDEWAui41Gu reS6UkcCTgumGQ00KG2iZCDr1Ib3AaQdXr8dr4tarM7nOBqtzjpteIXx36SSj77zgoAuMC HU7psmZWl2v6Zn7YHJY002dHAJcbYqTFYvHNol1CXaZIuyltkFKEDn5uk0wDow== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1705692290; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=7juZdns7Df0zVtrAYvrRUAAMVpffyd/YNlOrlaTBwBU=; b=kXrjD41Uw6Cv/vz6/4gZVMd7NiiNUr+lsB1kJX3K/NWwd1466+P9AhbWSyZvN6l85rTqI7 om1GAzt4pnWMf8cQz65+hUJXaDGkIb/jskBLzGQJE20gN71RkROXuYf1BHX3pxJzbJHqfX nh9KfKPA4Ixzd5R2Gxbq72IdQXuPSCdV+/KgzWw3LTwiSO9UFc9d3o758v/Sytzt45iOdZ k7lHtHvWG209IDUZd/MfiBHW4XO3EbUM4nSOG1CDS+lifO8C04n0TEdW+TH2jWFplw1nmn MNCqp3wizxJC3qncAtWxDC+keV1b3U5u0Cq8+2rtPNmrhix5pwswe4P9Z/SmEg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1705692290; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=bUQLRLFAAkOnC2q3ItOsKInwGCFZy1zBib/nAqtbSrE9b9y/az00PElbi7zoSQkouVVj7C I9U1I4mlsn2eNs40GLR0hcf7d+TQZ1CjuSioQjgQs999CbA/C0YjCvTIBNyumZFJ4YR8Gx oUKXeNoKdjPFh0TTLXW4xTuyJEHFbV2R6jGv8aIkNbgP363hmFT9JgaRgQ0mDb+D+GfUk/ O6yfUTDQwa0jFhQgGhv9apXZRZUKQBzeOrjBvg4qAlaTkygNIb3FHq8jv878Jovsg7y/DM RvMG9Biq47bfpQBnekPxvS2jQN9BNjbGCCql6fqmyk95yce2p56gPIhPRTDcGw== Received: by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 1354) id 2DBF1F850; Fri, 19 Jan 2024 19:24:50 +0000 (UTC) From: Jan Beich To: Rozhuk Ivan Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , FreeBSD Mailing List Subject: Re: kcmp implementation for mesa In-Reply-To: <20240119131047.6975f574@rimwks.local> (Rozhuk Ivan's message of "Fri, 19 Jan 2024 13:10:47 +0200") References: <20240119131047.6975f574@rimwks.local> Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2024 20:24:46 +0100 Message-ID: List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Rozhuk Ivan writes: > * The 2 fds can be different, even in systems with a single GPU, eg: if > * radv is initialized before radeonsi. > * > * This fd tracking is useful for buffer sharing because KMS/GEM handles are > * specific to a DRM file description, i.e. the same handle value may refer > * to different underlying BOs in different DRM file descriptions. > * As an example, if an app wants to use drmModeAddFB it'll need a KMS handle > * valid for its fd (== amdgpu_screen_winsys::fd). > * If both fds are identical, there's nothing to do: bo->u.real.kms_handle > * can be used directly (see amdgpu_bo_get_handle). > * If they're different, the BO has to be exported from the device fd as > * a dma-buf, then imported from the app fd as a KMS handle. Just FYI, some types of export/import dma-bufs may not work on FreeBSD due to https://github.com/freebsd/drm-kmod/issues/278 export/import ioctls are mainly used in Vulkan WSI while kcmp() is used in OpenGL drivers (iris, radeonsi, etc), so it's probobably only necessary between a Vulkan-based compositor (wlroots for Wayland, chamfer for X11) and an OpenGL client (web browsers, old or open source games, etc). How much of that requires emulating kcmp() is unclear to me. From nobody Fri Jan 19 22:24:16 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TGvKz6GhMz57XmX; Fri, 19 Jan 2024 22:24:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kib@freebsd.org) Received: from kib.kiev.ua (kib.kiev.ua [IPv6:2001:470:d5e7:1::1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TGvKz3sShz4DvR; Fri, 19 Jan 2024 22:24:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kib@freebsd.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from tom.home (kib@localhost [127.0.0.1] (may be forged)) by kib.kiev.ua (8.17.1/8.17.1) with ESMTP id 40JMOGv7048998; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 00:24:19 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from kib@freebsd.org) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 kib.kiev.ua 40JMOGv7048998 Received: (from kostik@localhost) by tom.home (8.17.1/8.17.1/Submit) id 40JMOGdJ048997; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 00:24:16 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from kib@freebsd.org) X-Authentication-Warning: tom.home: kostik set sender to kib@freebsd.org using -f Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 00:24:16 +0200 From: Konstantin Belousov To: Mateusz Guzik Cc: Michael Zhilin , Rozhuk Ivan , FreeBSD Hackers , FreeBSD Mailing List Subject: Re: kcmp implementation for mesa Message-ID: References: <20240119131047.6975f574@rimwks.local> List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=4.0.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0 (2022-12-14) on tom.home X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4TGvKz3sShz4DvR X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US] On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 07:40:32PM +0100, Mateusz Guzik wrote: > instead of messing with code like this it's probably time to implement > kcmp in the kernel Indeed https://reviews.freebsd.org/D43518 From nobody Sat Jan 20 16:51:25 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4THMvb1lSVz57VSs for ; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 16:51:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asomers@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qv1-f52.google.com (mail-qv1-f52.google.com [209.85.219.52]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4THMvZ47QNz4H5n; 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Sat, 20 Jan 2024 08:51:36 -0800 (PST) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Alan Somers Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 09:51:25 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: The Case for Rust (in the base system) To: FreeBSD Hackers Cc: Warner Losh , Scott Long , meka@tilda.center Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.81 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.994]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.982]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.94)[-0.938]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[asomers@freebsd.org,asomers@gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[freebsd.org : SPF not aligned (relaxed), No valid DKIM,none]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[asomers]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[209.85.219.52:from]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[209.85.219.52:from]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[asomers@freebsd.org,asomers@gmail.com]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4THMvZ47QNz4H5n In a recent thread on src-committers, we discussed the costs and benefits of including Rust code in the FreeBSD base system. To summarize, the cost is that it would double our build times. imp suggested adding an additional step after buildworld for stuff that requires an external toolchain. That would ease the build time pain. The benefit is that some tools would become easier to write, or even become possible. Here is a list of actual and potential Rust projects that could benefit from being in-tree. If anybody else has items to add, I suggest moving this into the project wiki: Stuff that could only be written in Rust if it were in base =========================================================== * ctl-exporter (I started this, but discovered that the CTL stats API is unstable, so it can't live in ports. Instead, I had to do it in C). https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/commit/1a7f22d9c211f504f6c48a86401469181a67ec34 * fusefs tests. Absolutely impossible to do in C. I considered Rust, but went with C++ so they could live in base. They are too closely coupled to fusefs(5) to live out-of-tree. https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/tree/main/tests/sys/fs/fusefs * devd. Currently C++, but imp suggested a rewrite. https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/tree/main/sbin/devd * zfsd. Currently C++, but I've long pondered a rewrite. Using Rust would make it more testable. https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/tree/main/cddl/usr.sbin/zfsd * nscd. Currently C, but confusing and with no test coverage. I've contemplated a rewrite myself, but I don't want to do it in C. https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/tree/main/usr.sbin/nscd * The userland portion of the 802.11ac and Lightning stacks. scottl suggested that these were good candidates for Rust. * freebsd-kpi-r14-0 . https://crates.io/crates/freebsd-kpi-r14-0 Stuff that can live in ports, but would be nicer in base ======================================================== * gstat-rs https://crates.io/crates/gstat * geom-exporter (I've started this, but haven't published it) * nfs-exporter https://crates.io/crates/freebsd-nfs-exporter * virtiofsd-rs . Nobody has yet tried to port it to FreeBSD. But if the connection to bhyve(8) is too intimate, it might be hard to do in ports. https://gitlab.com/virtio-fs/virtiofsd * jail-exporter https://crates.io/crates/jail_exporter * Various jail managers have been attempted in Rust. I think these are fine in ports, but others like Goran Mekic have opined that they should be moved to base instead. * musikid's pjdfstest rewrite. I think it would be great to start using this to test the base system's file systems. If the tests themselves lived in base, they would be easier to sync with file system development. https://github.com/musikid/pjdfstest * pf-rs. I suspect that the API isn't very stable. https://crates.io/crates/pf-rs * benchpmc. The pmc counter names changes between releases. https://crates.io/crates/benchpmc FreeBSD-related applications that are just fine in ports ========================================================= * fsx-rs. Unlike pjdfstest, this only tests datapath APIs. Those are usually more stable than control path APIs, so I think there's little to be gained by moving this into base. https://crates.io/crates/fsx * ztop. It uses ZFS's kstats sysctl interface, which is pretty stable. https://crates.io/crates/ztop * iocage-provision https://crates.io/crates/iocage-provision * rsblk https://crates.io/crates/rsblk * xfuse https://github.com/KhaledEmaraDev/xfuse Other FreeBSD-related libraries in Rust ======================================= Just see the list at https://crates.io/keywords/freebsd From nobody Sat Jan 20 17:13:54 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4THNQ726mZz57Y58 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 17:14:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 6yearold@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qk1-f178.google.com (mail-qk1-f178.google.com [209.85.222.178]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4THNQ707qmz4KN3; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 17:14:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 6yearold@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-qk1-f178.google.com with SMTP id af79cd13be357-78333ad3a17so146655785a.3; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 09:14:39 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1705770878; x=1706375678; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=3U1BH6ZBIWYdhyRBaN2lDk/6zFEIxPJu2/OSzINY4X0=; b=XRwaEFVebEct/cYvKO4Dw8/gF1vCisDnYa6w1nO1kDP2cUwFo4ZuUIpt0DKiAlnpG6 uSoUmrdwxtwaOLfxwWAhtwEcvHZoqIBVydjTRMg7OaPfJ4dALp9Al4UWHRr0Y0FWb1PN dNwCN/iiq4vM/Dfa4YQepzhKXYocSrht82G/UrZ/qlFac6mXFwQ9CQ7JSmMdaj9fALuv RD0OrdUfQ1qL2cL3VO1TGLK8xCO6mLlVSJz+tP7FHNqbo3U/3uil18SPWb9lxRy6PefS sf+yGvU1nciQLVr0hVqs6Zfo9Kd2/ch/g5CFbIn0ZLROFarogNbhyHmamPowL8soKr8K MkAg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzqmjUrrog6Xk3nX9IyqBiq4mQlP5RZWJpCTi7bhXrI1wenb2VA VBvMVLNHR2IhlqPZ4e2TglybkfDuhgvt6u95xFK15Cwx3QrrjxLFYg1q5I6EGxkinA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFjBYkT7vHscn8mdPxBvdnKW3s7F1HkbaqRiWywPp+DYjPpysdr0DN4fRMqxai8CEiyNJi+vw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:3953:b0:783:8e33:dd26 with SMTP id qs19-20020a05620a395300b007838e33dd26mr2181453qkn.142.1705770877975; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 09:14:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qv1-f43.google.com (mail-qv1-f43.google.com. [209.85.219.43]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ca9-20020a05622a1f0900b00429b97f01dcsm831216qtb.9.2024.01.20.09.14.37 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 20 Jan 2024 09:14:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qv1-f43.google.com with SMTP id 6a1803df08f44-68543244259so5018136d6.1; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 09:14:37 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 2002:ad4:5cae:0:b0:681:9bf:2c9d with SMTP id q14-20020ad45cae000000b0068109bf2c9dmr2302037qvh.110.1705770877595; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 09:14:37 -0800 (PST) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Gleb Popov Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 20:13:54 +0300 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) To: Alan Somers Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , Warner Losh , Scott Long , meka@tilda.center Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4THNQ707qmz4KN3 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US] On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 7:51=E2=80=AFPM Alan Somers w= rote: > To > summarize, the cost is that it would double our build times. Would it? From what I remember, a lot of rust's build time comes from building its own LLVM. Can we reuse our base LLVM for Rust-in-base? From nobody Sat Jan 20 17:34:45 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4THNsM64kyz56Ltl for ; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 17:34:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dim@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4THNsM5ZXXz4Mg1; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 17:34:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dim@FreeBSD.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1705772087; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=w8IuyhuyWqcsPnW8JkllAqCLgMei8wh4Qtb/yO8DtQI=; b=ZYyp5uEGZqVqOQO0ru6TB4gAiHt5+anD6gYoKBUFPN7Sql32NnNIMzF2xsC29rmddPlhHj EHgeVwCzCr3OG+BvRPhndszS7oIINBzlTsconnwjqrTc1DxJrjV3yItEX8E98NRTzEa9Rl gg1vIEJ5YskC8goTKs+amynXBBXq8ZHZOyBtOJlLa17DARs0WYI4T+Tq1k41ibWfAx/0uR 7K9p4ixmUx/cqJM9npPsT9s3AWflxfV5Ucxm4LDfiW23fNRZfZXjSNNkEpCB6GXBmg5W5F cda9vxtIMJWKbEZE5EY7ZDLJrI/WlXBflsbw6FbeMrHLlIFT6M4v877HSrlw0Q== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1705772087; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=w8IuyhuyWqcsPnW8JkllAqCLgMei8wh4Qtb/yO8DtQI=; b=v1Wft4bHXCUzubYBBlOtjYcFutHVNgtJKmgrM4l4bKDHeyND5j4OJuJ/o8qhWNBXRoANzS dlAC7h2jLHhV1xIBZ6MugtvATKbFkp0JI2W++P1wvdcjNbkpQSjOcwZGooL3u46KW5+2ba zPoaBM/4MHXYZ6+bsJNxZi9duuNmJ0I3KDnQkjCiKLTJLOZCMSh7dFnsNduG5tA5WiD0y4 B1JnEuYqt3w+kvcAU3/UYoUTw6ynxgABxWA0QvJt1wvCuCCi8BCVz7IRP490CjQBQ5YYhL 3IdDJIKi1TKWmbxmE94vBIfNzdqH1BVKM6KCh4lXbNsPXLxyUWtWjWJvOYsjPA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1705772087; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=dHBXYacBnNdy72cRn/89K0HM1ngsuMhWbYY/z0fxmk9vHWjg1KFjvPNy7vcpHTlfP8PEqw vvJV26IPKNOVESWXXa7Q2HB0tTkOvXRcqnU7p+mvgK7rwykTFARSGsj1W2I/p6D0VR5IzQ yQ7t7nCaQvRLsV+flW4MUANhWh+2WEVOeGcA2+C9Oed75MdO75mvxamrfdCzj2SRcEkXNX tp00GgRihifVbs7V+llQ1jVUygdapUtwIXtwUxZ7QI4k9afUdZ6jlZXuEr+3LIZcaX0thH QahHWBP4NCj6GpdSWjXWPrug58cbqjQchbX5E4rN4kGloBu+3W7yPVMEa7PipQ== Received: from tensor.andric.com (tensor.andric.com [87.251.56.140]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "tensor.andric.com", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) (Authenticated sender: dim) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4THNsM3vrZzjh0; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 17:34:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dim@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtpclient.apple (longrow.home.andric.com [192.168.0.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tensor.andric.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6A5A91D50A; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 18:34:45 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3731.700.6\)) Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) From: Dimitry Andric In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 18:34:45 +0100 Cc: Alan Somers , FreeBSD Hackers , Warner Losh , Scott Long , meka@tilda.center Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <01519AEB-2725-492F-BC17-A7A40166D437@FreeBSD.org> References: To: Gleb Popov X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.700.6) On 20 Jan 2024, at 18:13, Gleb Popov wrote: >=20 > On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 7:51=E2=80=AFPM Alan Somers = wrote: >> To >> summarize, the cost is that it would double our build times. >=20 > Would it? =46rom what I remember, a lot of rust's build time comes = from > building its own LLVM. Can we reuse our base LLVM for Rust-in-base? It used to be the case that the Rust port could not use an LLVM port, but had to use its own copy, but it seems that as of https://cgit.freebsd.org/ports/commit/?id=3D098de5bc2195 it is possible again. However, I think this discussion is going in the wrong direction: why keep attempting to build all these huge toolchain components in our base system at all? Our bmake is reasonably powerful, but upstream build systems for both LLVM and Rust require lots of dependencies that we can never all import. And mimicking those upstream builds in our base system is getting more and more complicated all the time. Therefore, I think it is better to put more effort in supporting external toolchain components, and even going so far as to remove some of those toolchains from base. Including LLVM, at some point. Let new toolchain components for base live in ports, please. -Dimitry From nobody Sat Jan 20 17:54:18 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4THPJB68GWz56NdM for ; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 17:54:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from antranigv@freebsd.am) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4THPJB5bhsz4QWK; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 17:54:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from antranigv@freebsd.am) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EB935C00BD; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 12:54:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 20 Jan 2024 12:54:34 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.am; h=cc :cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type:date :date:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:subject:subject:to:to; s=fm2; t=1705773274; x=1705859674; bh=q2OI8LQeW9ataLmdcWAMybTj2M2Sw5U5Q4ZMTM9uNuc=; b= 1j1YAy2hMCYAqsG4HJPkg7PNlrPs9VHT2ocEYmZn3MrYumOr7FB60d5tii8lXeZ1 KN/nPedIoAPJZgBfR0Ss3G/I7xuJnr1ujupNCamHxzoDgZjRWRz0M103oZmqVvY9 Kj+k8Co1sse1r7oxf3LksAJBzpqVh/4nUh7ReXh6XBekyKPa8llDZj6tbBB/FGde 4awMq3e0Hue9AtXyBlFBwF9jKZm7bLsObdoAZR9wKvqBWK72tBIM4MHR2fJ5praU nl+AGIdr+vr1+KR21/wNwkKvPi4SUisohKJfwrSc2UOdLb5cf4C/eT2/sYmtVq0h 3oKneZQDnHJFKgo7LbIDRg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:content-type:date:date:feedback-id:feedback-id :from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:subject:subject:to:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy :x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; t=1705773274; x= 1705859674; bh=q2OI8LQeW9ataLmdcWAMybTj2M2Sw5U5Q4ZMTM9uNuc=; b=E 0RpSzGPqCxhLNvrj5duK3iM6DqBC3X14wI7YLaBcyXL+poeWBlDXucifSMnVGRCz 33WGIxMAZ4sjywAPFkseCUUnXqO/Get8GEapsLnFGSulF9LhCUchnd14RUAHTrPN VxRnglSMw9Z3ZJ7zDZEdNrtxE5Afb3cgdXM9+dBhT1oYHoeE6G9vGjSmJW3okfCh KCcM11Ga1mUq7J9KSu1zsYRLrZ+UTClF2igOuWKNIQ5ZkuHBEsg/lqfUKOCbsc8D YZZneI8NimsFU3ZiiBfiZBPwwHwIJQH9Bgv2Ez0p0cMbaBIMH0GV1hVOWsn9e0aa v2zTkwF1A6DF0Si9wW++g== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvkedrvdekvddguddtjecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmd enucfjughrpegtggfuhfgjffevgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtjeenucfhrhhomheptehn thhrrghnihhgucggrghrthgrnhhirghnuceorghnthhrrghnihhgvhesfhhrvggvsghsug drrghmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpefgudffteelleetheejffekfffftefhleehgefh uedtgfdthedvudetieejfeekgfenucffohhmrghinhepghhithhhuhgsrdgtohhmpdgrnh htrhgrnhhighhvrdgrmhdptghrrghtvghsrdhiohdpghhithhlrggsrdgtohhmnecuvehl uhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomheprghnthhrrghnih hgvhesfhhrvggvsghsugdrrghm X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: ibc494664:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 12:54:31 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3774.200.91.1.1\)) Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) From: Antranig Vartanian In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 21:54:18 +0400 Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , Warner Losh , Scott Long , =?utf-8?Q?Goran_Meki=C4=87?= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Alan Somers X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3774.200.91.1.1) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4THPJB5bhsz4QWK X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:19151, ipnet:66.111.4.0/24, country:US] I don=E2=80=99t want to do a what-aboutism, but if all we=E2=80=99re = looking for is a good and=20 secure system programming language, the alternatives are nicer. There=E2=80=99s Modula-3, which, unlike Rust, supported FreeBSD as Tier = 1, I=E2=80=99m sure the=20 compiler is smaller, although hasn=E2=80=99t been updated in a while. On that thought, Wirth=E2=80=99s passing reminded me of Oberon-2, which = does have a=20 port on FreeBSD, lang/voc. It can also =E2=80=9Cattach=E2=80=9D to the C = functions. Last year I=20 integrated libxo, libucl and libjail with Oberon-2/VOC and it all worked = fine. The compile times are also impressive.[1][2] However, if all we=E2=80=99re looking for is to be fancy and follow the = industry, Rust=20 doesn=E2=80=99t seem bad overall. The main issue is the toolchain. 2x = compile time=20 would be awful. Optional targets would be nice, but then people will = start=20 writing X/Y/Z in Rust, and before you know jail(8) would start requiring = a=20 large external compiler. Again, to be clear, I would like to hear the =E2=80=9Cwhy=E2=80=9D more = than the =E2=80=9Chow=E2=80=9D. 1: https://github.com/antranigv/voclibucl 2: https://github.com/antranigv/voclibxo=20 Cheers, =E2=80=94 Antranig Vartanian https://antranigv.am/ PGP Key ID: 0x2D59F21C > On 20 Jan 2024, at 8:51=E2=80=AFPM, Alan Somers = wrote: >=20 > In a recent thread on src-committers, we discussed the costs and > benefits of including Rust code in the FreeBSD base system. To > summarize, the cost is that it would double our build times. imp > suggested adding an additional step after buildworld for stuff that > requires an external toolchain. That would ease the build time pain. > The benefit is that some tools would become easier to write, or even > become possible. Here is a list of actual and potential Rust projects > that could benefit from being in-tree. If anybody else has items to > add, I suggest moving this into the project wiki: >=20 > Stuff that could only be written in Rust if it were in base > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 > * ctl-exporter (I started this, but discovered that the CTL stats API = is > unstable, so it can't live in ports. Instead, I had to do it in C). > = https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/commit/1a7f22d9c211f504f6c48a864014= 69181a67ec34 >=20 > * fusefs tests. Absolutely impossible to do in C. I considered Rust, = but went > with C++ so they could live in base. They are too closely coupled to > fusefs(5) to live out-of-tree. > https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/tree/main/tests/sys/fs/fusefs >=20 > * devd. Currently C++, but imp suggested a rewrite. > https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/tree/main/sbin/devd >=20 > * zfsd. Currently C++, but I've long pondered a rewrite. Using Rust = would > make it more testable. > https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/tree/main/cddl/usr.sbin/zfsd >=20 > * nscd. Currently C, but confusing and with no test coverage. I've > contemplated a rewrite myself, but I don't want to do it in C. > https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/tree/main/usr.sbin/nscd >=20 > * The userland portion of the 802.11ac and Lightning stacks. scottl = suggested > that these were good candidates for Rust. >=20 > * freebsd-kpi-r14-0 . https://crates.io/crates/freebsd-kpi-r14-0 >=20 > Stuff that can live in ports, but would be nicer in base > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 > * gstat-rs https://crates.io/crates/gstat >=20 > * geom-exporter (I've started this, but haven't published it) >=20 > * nfs-exporter https://crates.io/crates/freebsd-nfs-exporter >=20 > * virtiofsd-rs . Nobody has yet tried to port it to FreeBSD. But if = the > connection to bhyve(8) is too intimate, it might be hard to do in = ports. > https://gitlab.com/virtio-fs/virtiofsd >=20 > * jail-exporter https://crates.io/crates/jail_exporter >=20 > * Various jail managers have been attempted in Rust. I think these = are fine in > ports, but others like Goran Mekic have opined that they should be = moved to > base instead. >=20 > * musikid's pjdfstest rewrite. I think it would be great to start = using this > to test the base system's file systems. If the tests themselves = lived in > base, they would be easier to sync with file system development. > https://github.com/musikid/pjdfstest >=20 > * pf-rs. I suspect that the API isn't very stable. > https://crates.io/crates/pf-rs >=20 > * benchpmc. The pmc counter names changes between releases. > https://crates.io/crates/benchpmc >=20 > FreeBSD-related applications that are just fine in ports > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 > * fsx-rs. Unlike pjdfstest, this only tests datapath APIs. Those are = usually > more stable than control path APIs, so I think there's little to be = gained by > moving this into base. https://crates.io/crates/fsx >=20 > * ztop. It uses ZFS's kstats sysctl interface, which is pretty = stable. > https://crates.io/crates/ztop >=20 > * iocage-provision https://crates.io/crates/iocage-provision >=20 > * rsblk https://crates.io/crates/rsblk >=20 > * xfuse https://github.com/KhaledEmaraDev/xfuse >=20 > Other FreeBSD-related libraries in Rust > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Just see the list at https://crates.io/keywords/freebsd >=20 From nobody Sat Jan 20 17:58:25 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4THPNy0wKcz56PF2 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 17:58:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from george+freebsd@m5p.com) Received: from mailhost.m5p.com (mailhost.m5p.com [74.104.188.4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "m5p.com", Issuer "R3" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4THPNy0PKzz4RkD; 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Sat, 20 Jan 2024 10:08:39 -0800 (PST) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 11:08:27 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) To: Gleb Popov Cc: Alan Somers , FreeBSD Hackers , Scott Long , "Goran Meki??" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000072c8d7060f647c5f" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4THPcT1Bddz4ThV X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] --00000000000072c8d7060f647c5f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 10:14=E2=80=AFAM Gleb Popov wrot= e: > On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 7:51=E2=80=AFPM Alan Somers = wrote: > > To > > summarize, the cost is that it would double our build times. > > Would it? From what I remember, a lot of rust's build time comes from > building its own LLVM. Can we reuse our base LLVM for Rust-in-base? > No. That's not possible in general. Rust needs its own special thing that is not well tested fit the non rust case. Warner > --00000000000072c8d7060f647c5f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 10:14=E2=80=AFAM Gleb Popov <= arrowd@freebsd.org> wrote:
=
On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 7:51=E2=80=AFP= M Alan Somers <asomers@freebsd.org> wrote:
> To
> summarize, the cost is that it would double our build times.

Would it? From what I remember, a lot of rust's build time comes from building its own LLVM. Can we reuse our base LLVM for Rust-in-base?

No. That= 's not possible in general.=C2=A0 Rust needs its own special thing that= is not well tested fit the non rust case.

Warner=C2=A0
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Sat, 20 Jan 2024 10:37:37 -0800 (PST) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 11:37:25 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) To: Alan Somers Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , "Goran Meki??" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000009d07c060f64e4be" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4THQFv0Gz1z4Zrt X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] --00000000000009d07c060f64e4be Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 9:51=E2=80=AFAM Alan Somers wro= te: > In a recent thread on src-committers, we discussed the costs and > benefits of including Rust code in the FreeBSD base system. To > summarize, the cost is that it would double our build times. imp > suggested adding an additional step after buildworld for stuff that > requires an external toolchain. That would ease the build time pain. > The benefit is that some tools would become easier to write, or even > become possible. Here is a list of actual and potential Rust projects > that could benefit from being in-tree. If anybody else has items to > add, I suggest moving this into the project wiki: > While a good list, it's just a list. Rust is interesting but without experience in the FreeBSD context we won't know if it materially improves things. The why of Rust is currently somewhere between hype and reality. Those that love it, love it. Those that don't, don't see how this fad is different from all the other fads. That's part of why it's hard to sell: the rust toolchain is difficult and different; it can do things automatically with crates that are insecure and unrepeatable; etc. With that, though comes a lot of benefits in safety of the language in more ways than just security. What is needed to convince people it's not just a fad is to bring some things into the tree that aren't critical to the tree, per se, but that can let people opt in to see just how bad the downside is in a buildworld context and just what the upsides are in practice. If it really is a good fit, it will sell itself... So this isn't about what could be rust: a lot can be. But what's the point of rewriting things that haven't had security bugs that rust prevents? The benefits of using rust have to be documented and demonstrated rather than just hyped, asserted and sold. That's why I suggested we start with better tests in rust. That's the petfect way to make sure we get the external tool chain working. We get the integration right. We fight with whatever pain there is and fix it as needed. We learn if it actually fits in and if we can keep up the infrastructure or if that's not something we can do. Once that works, we can rewrite other things as the need or desire arises. So no, we aren't going to rush headlong into fullscale rust replacement of all the things. However I'll note Linux hasn't done that either. They are taking a one step at a time approach. Step one is build integration with an external toolchain, imho. Until we have that, 0 Rust will be in the system. We already can do ports... but if you want it more central the first steps will be in making it possible to build rust binaries at all in a repeatable way. Warner Stuff that could only be written in Rust if it were in base > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > * ctl-exporter (I started this, but discovered that the CTL stats API is > unstable, so it can't live in ports. Instead, I had to do it in C). > > https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/commit/1a7f22d9c211f504f6c48a86401= 469181a67ec34 > > * fusefs tests. Absolutely impossible to do in C. I considered Rust, bu= t > went > with C++ so they could live in base. They are too closely coupled to > fusefs(5) to live out-of-tree. > https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/tree/main/tests/sys/fs/fusefs > > * devd. Currently C++, but imp suggested a rewrite. > https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/tree/main/sbin/devd > > * zfsd. Currently C++, but I've long pondered a rewrite. Using Rust wou= ld > make it more testable. > https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/tree/main/cddl/usr.sbin/zfsd > > * nscd. Currently C, but confusing and with no test coverage. I've > contemplated a rewrite myself, but I don't want to do it in C. > https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/tree/main/usr.sbin/nscd > > * The userland portion of the 802.11ac and Lightning stacks. scottl > suggested > that these were good candidates for Rust. > > * freebsd-kpi-r14-0 . https://crates.io/crates/freebsd-kpi-r14-0 > > Stuff that can live in ports, but would be nicer in base > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > * gstat-rs https://crates.io/crates/gstat > > * geom-exporter (I've started this, but haven't published it) > > * nfs-exporter https://crates.io/crates/freebsd-nfs-exporter > > * virtiofsd-rs . Nobody has yet tried to port it to FreeBSD. But if the > connection to bhyve(8) is too intimate, it might be hard to do in ports= . > https://gitlab.com/virtio-fs/virtiofsd > > * jail-exporter https://crates.io/crates/jail_exporter > > * Various jail managers have been attempted in Rust. I think these are > fine in > ports, but others like Goran Mekic have opined that they should be move= d > to > base instead. > > * musikid's pjdfstest rewrite. I think it would be great to start using > this > to test the base system's file systems. If the tests themselves lived = in > base, they would be easier to sync with file system development. > https://github.com/musikid/pjdfstest > > * pf-rs. I suspect that the API isn't very stable. > https://crates.io/crates/pf-rs > > * benchpmc. The pmc counter names changes between releases. > https://crates.io/crates/benchpmc > > FreeBSD-related applications that are just fine in ports > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > * fsx-rs. Unlike pjdfstest, this only tests datapath APIs. Those are > usually > more stable than control path APIs, so I think there's little to be > gained by > moving this into base. https://crates.io/crates/fsx > > * ztop. It uses ZFS's kstats sysctl interface, which is pretty stable. > https://crates.io/crates/ztop > > * iocage-provision https://crates.io/crates/iocage-provision > > * rsblk https://crates.io/crates/rsblk > > * xfuse https://github.com/KhaledEmaraDev/xfuse > > Other FreeBSD-related libraries in Rust > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Just see the list at https://crates.io/keywords/freebsd > --00000000000009d07c060f64e4be Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 9:51=E2=80=AFAM Alan Somers <= asomers@freebsd.org> wrote:
In a recent thread on src-committers= , we discussed the costs and
benefits of including Rust code in the FreeBSD base system.=C2=A0 To
summarize, the cost is that it would double our build times.=C2=A0 imp
suggested adding an additional step after buildworld for stuff that
requires an external toolchain.=C2=A0 That would ease the build time pain.<= br> The benefit is that some tools would become easier to write, or even
become possible.=C2=A0 Here is a list of actual and potential Rust projects=
that could benefit from being in-tree.=C2=A0 If anybody else has items to add, I suggest moving this into the project wiki:

While a good list, it'= s just a list. Rust is interesting but without experience in the FreeBSD co= ntext we won't know if it materially improves things. The why of Rust i= s currently somewhere between hype and reality. Those that love it, love it= . Those that don't, don't see how this fad is different from all th= e other fads. That's part of why it's hard to sell: the rust toolch= ain is difficult and different; it can do things automatically with crates = that are insecure and unrepeatable; etc. With that, though comes a lot of b= enefits in safety of the language in more ways than just security. What is = needed to convince people it's not just a fad is to bring some things i= nto the tree that aren't critical to the tree, per se, but that can let= people opt in to see just how bad the downside is in a buildworld context = and just what the upsides are in practice. If it really is a good fit, it w= ill sell itself...

So th= is isn't about what could be rust: a lot can be. But what's the poi= nt of rewriting things that haven't had security bugs that rust prevent= s? The benefits of using rust have to be documented and demonstrated rather= than just hyped, asserted and sold.

That's why I suggested we start with better tests in rust.= That's the petfect way to make sure we get the external tool chain wor= king. We get the integration right. We fight with whatever pain there is an= d fix it as needed. We learn if it actually fits in and if we can keep up t= he infrastructure or if that's not something we can do.=C2=A0 Once that= works, we can rewrite other things as the need or desire arises.

So no, we aren't going to rus= h headlong into fullscale rust replacement of all the things. However I'= ;ll note Linux hasn't done that either. They are taking a one step at a= time approach. Step one is build integration with an external toolchain, i= mho. Until we have that, 0 Rust will be in the system. We already can do po= rts... but if you want it more central the first steps will be in making it= possible to build rust binaries at all in a repeatable way.

Warner


Stuff that could only be written in Rust if it were in base
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

* ctl-exporter (I started this, but discovered that the CTL stats API is =C2=A0 unstable, so it can't live in ports.=C2=A0 Instead, I had to do = it in C).
=C2=A0 https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/commit/1a7f22d9c211f504f6c48a864= 01469181a67ec34

* fusefs tests.=C2=A0 Absolutely impossible to do in C.=C2=A0 I considered = Rust, but went
=C2=A0 with C++ so they could live in base.=C2=A0 They are too closely coup= led to
=C2=A0 fusefs(5) to live out-of-tree.
=C2=A0 https://github= .com/freebsd/freebsd-src/tree/main/tests/sys/fs/fusefs

* devd.=C2=A0 Currently C++, but imp suggested a rewrite.
=C2=A0 https://github.com/freeb= sd/freebsd-src/tree/main/sbin/devd

* zfsd.=C2=A0 Currently C++, but I've long pondered a rewrite.=C2=A0 Us= ing Rust would
=C2=A0 make it more testable.
=C2=A0 https://github.= com/freebsd/freebsd-src/tree/main/cddl/usr.sbin/zfsd

* nscd.=C2=A0 Currently C, but confusing and with no test coverage.=C2=A0 I= 've
=C2=A0 contemplated a rewrite myself, but I don't want to do it in C. =C2=A0 https://github.com/f= reebsd/freebsd-src/tree/main/usr.sbin/nscd

* The userland portion of the 802.11ac and Lightning stacks.=C2=A0 scottl s= uggested
=C2=A0 that these were good candidates for Rust.

* freebsd-kpi-r14-0 .=C2=A0 https://crates.io/c= rates/freebsd-kpi-r14-0

Stuff that can live in ports, but would be nicer in base
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

* gstat-rs https://crates.io/crates/gstat

* geom-exporter (I've started this, but haven't published it)

* nfs-exporter https://crates.io/crates/free= bsd-nfs-exporter

* virtiofsd-rs .=C2=A0 Nobody has yet tried to port it to FreeBSD.=C2=A0 Bu= t if the
=C2=A0 connection to bhyve(8) is too intimate, it might be hard to do in po= rts.
=C2=A0 https://gitlab.com/virtio-fs/virtiofsd
* jail-exporter https://crates.io/crates/jail_expor= ter

* Various jail managers have been attempted in Rust.=C2=A0 I think these ar= e fine in
=C2=A0 ports, but others like Goran Mekic have opined that they should be m= oved to
=C2=A0 base instead.

* musikid's pjdfstest rewrite.=C2=A0 I think it would be great to start= using this
=C2=A0 to test the base system's file systems.=C2=A0 If the tests thems= elves lived in
=C2=A0 base, they would be easier to sync with file system development.
=C2=A0 https://github.com/musikid/pjdfstest

* pf-rs.=C2=A0 I suspect that the API isn't very stable.
=C2=A0 https://crates.io/crates/pf-rs

* benchpmc.=C2=A0 The pmc counter names changes between releases.
=C2=A0 https://crates.io/crates/benchpmc

FreeBSD-related applications that are just fine in ports
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

* fsx-rs.=C2=A0 Unlike pjdfstest, this only tests datapath APIs.=C2=A0 Thos= e are usually
=C2=A0 more stable than control path APIs, so I think there's little to= be gained by
=C2=A0 moving this into base. https://crates.io/crates/fsx

* ztop.=C2=A0 It uses ZFS's kstats sysctl interface, which is pretty st= able.
=C2=A0 https://crates.io/crates/ztop

* iocage-provision=C2=A0 https://crates.io/crate= s/iocage-provision

* rsblk https://crates.io/crates/rsblk

* xfuse=C2=A0 https://github.com/KhaledEmaraDev/xf= use

Other FreeBSD-related libraries in Rust
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Just see the list at https://crates.io/keywords/freebsd=
--00000000000009d07c060f64e4be-- From nobody Sat Jan 20 21:12:34 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4THTj11yMqz57WCt for ; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 21:12:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from otis@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4THTj11Q4Qz4t60; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 21:12:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from otis@FreeBSD.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1705785173; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=Zu1iDCRbiiGe1s6qmwJm7m0W2awY1IMkUHB5JfRY6kM=; b=WR39r1Bqrj8KVS4zpTazfWlqqBaL9iTYLTfWZp2eCjcyxPxb8H+Oct5jFaZFREDQy8giJN 6VdcoMsDYsBQnIFUEKmXSaeCijAfBzpkiInkteJdfbCoY8TR6UB7qG73I+GQnpAHA7xWcr QKvc0idl/aFU7uXpBAG0o+5eQc3mtNxtvsAh1AtHI3TaE+iYuaWAGA4HqulJd3u/PqA2Ee WURSYHbRB7XTQF6JBZmSpkrlRkS4/D/4tPtZpl2TGdry6IQyz+gca+N7vXNFcvM+5TGz2c kC94d4uGspL39Qor0+IMYMT0bgFDbZugfpOULuyu9CHivcyQ6ZLoQJ9UqXlRlw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1705785173; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=Zu1iDCRbiiGe1s6qmwJm7m0W2awY1IMkUHB5JfRY6kM=; b=jkjfnDC2qzvHNe434VZs6svlXsua/V6a6yYzc1AoBjSlxDyteabqCS990oqCOBUZSzsWml bLliu7wla5aaGGkI+bfNVkfobcJP1zynNG4kUAPcOYy/klx9FEb6lHaj0/jrJ6Au3/xdjm B/TR9W9fEv8jmzzFRShk5mMPq9hIK7EQ6ijZ+V4QznZXPRapUxwW3U0Z4wBEg8ndfvNEvv dGrtg5bb+bCUTPFTC8zuvZ2EIS7wwHoUbv9pG//1r5t2127W81lFu6ZBo6vqbuRS5LwH3N yVVMgA8SnF4ykDFInd1UD3XVxwuM2CHAkeY8YRMYVN2lv237D2FAwCG2HuG/jA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1705785173; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=h4yo/6GFG9RS/TMmcdGLKALdL2n3kD7a+gSTqP8hPH0hVNXNI6PmjstZy7CiG11sElPB1b X4gT4u5SS4iy3OCZez/WmnZe/mz6o/SBA93yYL/gsFmJ8gOhHC/jJYmbLgyOVAA6SRlezq +3BVNoqUhZou5ePpE/A31sDSnvC8SmbXVEzXQHCPyh/0VU4o8CU3CLG+GW0NddL2bM2E6A jmf601qYe4aTfjugriQjnDAswj5yFFpFUqOvHV5uYx068dI1C9gplRolaw2D8IZYHJBw4p e7pLdWsiMAKGXpj92ng+w//ahhQ100UD6iH/H4c5oiZivrAlqxLXypUkkoJyuQ== Received: from ns2.wilbury.net (ns2.wilbury.net [IPv6:2a01:b200:0:1:f816:3eff:fecd:13e6]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature ECDSA (P-256) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "svc.wilbury.net", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) (Authenticated sender: otis) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4THTj05ktDz135Z; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 21:12:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from otis@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtpclient.apple (gw-upc.owhome.net [188.167.168.254]) (Authenticated sender: juraj@lutter.sk) by svc.wilbury.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4865F62213; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 22:12:45 +0100 (CET) From: Juraj Lutter Message-Id: <58D3A7DA-84D2-4C35-B9EB-5BD4BAA51706@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0A83281E-76B6-4777-A91A-A8B83F976DAB" List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3774.300.61.1.2\)) Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 22:12:34 +0100 In-Reply-To: <01519AEB-2725-492F-BC17-A7A40166D437@FreeBSD.org> Cc: Gleb Popov , Alan Somers , FreeBSD Hackers , Warner Losh , Scott Long , meka@tilda.center To: Dimitry Andric References: <01519AEB-2725-492F-BC17-A7A40166D437@FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3774.300.61.1.2) --Apple-Mail=_0A83281E-76B6-4777-A91A-A8B83F976DAB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 20 Jan 2024, at 18:34, Dimitry Andric wrote: >=20 > On 20 Jan 2024, at 18:13, Gleb Popov wrote: >>=20 >> On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 7:51=E2=80=AFPM Alan Somers = wrote: >>> To >>> summarize, the cost is that it would double our build times. >>=20 >> Would it? =46rom what I remember, a lot of rust's build time comes = from >> building its own LLVM. Can we reuse our base LLVM for Rust-in-base? >=20 > It used to be the case that the Rust port could not use an LLVM port, > but had to use its own copy, but it seems that as of > https://cgit.freebsd.org/ports/commit/?id=3D098de5bc2195 it is = possible > again. Speaking of this: I=E2=80=99ve now tried to build rust with llvm15 on releng/13.2 and all = I=E2=80=99ve got was: wn-freebsd/release/deps/cargo-daa18b6ffb5dc5da" "-Wl,--gc-sections" = "-pie" "-Wl,-z,relro,-z,now" "-Wl,-O1" "-nodefaultlibs" "-Wl,-z,origin" = "-Wl,-rpath ,$ORIGIN/../lib" =3D note: ld: error: relocation R_X86_64_32 cannot be used against = local symbol; recompile with -fPIC >>> defined in = /wrkdirs/usr/ports/lang/rust/work/_build/x86_64-unknown-freebsd/stage1-too= ls/x86_64-unknown-freebsd/release/deps/liblibssh2_sy s-a60af3093adc87c9.rlib(agent.o) >>> referenced by agent.o:(libssh2_agent_init) in archive = /wrkdirs/usr/ports/lang/rust/work/_build/x86_64-unknown-freebsd/stage1-too= ls/x86_64 -unknown-freebsd/release/deps/liblibssh2_sys-a60af3093adc87c9.rlib Is this something that can be fixed easily? Thanks =E2=80=94 Juraj Lutter otis@FreeBSD.org --Apple-Mail=_0A83281E-76B6-4777-A91A-A8B83F976DAB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On 20 Jan 2024, at 18:34, Dimitry Andric = <dim@FreeBSD.org> wrote:

On 20 Jan 2024, at 18:13, = Gleb Popov <arrowd@freebsd.org> wrote:

On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 7:51=E2=80=AFPM Alan Somers = <asomers@freebsd.org> wrote:
To
summarize, the cost is that it would double our = build times.

Would it? =46rom what I remember, a lot = of rust's build time comes from
building its own LLVM. Can we reuse = our base LLVM for Rust-in-base?

It used to be the = case that the Rust port could not use an LLVM port,
but had to use = its own copy, but it seems that as = of
https://cgit.freebsd.org/ports/commit/?id=3D098de5bc2195 it is = possible
again.

Speaking = of this:

I=E2=80=99ve now tried to build rust = with llvm15 on releng/13.2 and all I=E2=80=99ve got = was:

wn-freebsd/release/deps/cargo-daa18b6ff= b5dc5da" "-Wl,--gc-sections" "-pie" "-Wl,-z,relro,-z,now" "-Wl,-O1" = "-nodefaultlibs" "-Wl,-z,origin" = "-Wl,-rpath
,$ORIGIN/../lib"
  =3D note: ld: = error: relocation R_X86_64_32 cannot be used against local symbol; = recompile with -fPIC
          = >>> defined in = /wrkdirs/usr/ports/lang/rust/work/_build/x86_64-unknown-freebsd/stage1-too= ls/x86_64-unknown-freebsd/release/deps/liblibssh2_sy
s-a60af3093= adc87c9.rlib(agent.o)
          = >>> referenced by agent.o:(libssh2_agent_init) in archive = /wrkdirs/usr/ports/lang/rust/work/_build/x86_64-unknown-freebsd/stage1-too= ls/x86_64
-unknown-freebsd/release/deps/liblibssh2_sys-a60af3093= adc87c9.rlib


Is this something = that can be fixed = easily?

Thanks

=E2=80=94
Juraj = Lutter
otis@FreeBSD.org

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> > https://github.com/Axcient/freebsd-nfs-exporter/blob/master/Cargo.toml#L1= 9 > https://github.com/asomers/gstat-rs/blob/master/gstat/src/main.rs#L20 > > Is there any plan for which crates we should take into the base system? > > We have had C++ in base for many years, but I don=E2=80=99t see any good = libraries > for CLI, logging, JSON, etc. > > > https://doc.rust-lang.org/rustc/platform-support.html#tier-1-with-host-to= ols > > Where is the support for Freebsd as a primary platform? ARM, RISC-V, > Power? Should we rewrite devd? > > I think we need to start by providing official repositories (e.g > git.FreeBSD.org/rust.git or git.FreeBSD.org/go.git) > for different languages that include stable bindings to the system API: > - sysctl > - libgeom > - libifconfig > - netgraph > - jail > - etc. > > So that it=E2=80=99s not just some anonymous on crates.io that represents= these > bindings, but our community. > Officially, with support for a stable ABI for releases, security patches, > etc. > > After this, it will be possible to think about which components to includ= e > in the base system. > > I would be glad to see a more modern language than C in the database, but > I=E2=80=99m afraid that it will be like with C++, > that we will get a couple of daemons and utilities and that=E2=80=99s all= . > These are all good questions that need good answers, though necessarily to get started. But the other question that occured to me after my last posting was "What about build integration?" How much of the rust automation do we take in vs how much do we drive from a future bsd.rust.mk. I can sketch out bsd.rust.mk (to pick an arbitrary name, we'd likely need one for what we traditionally think of as libraries (which may or may not map 1:1 onto crates: we could have c callable libraries written in rust in the future, for example) and one for binaries. Initially, though, if we go with the 'make rust tests possible' then we'd likely need the appropriate packages installed for whatever dependencies we'd have in the tests. This would give us a taste for what we'd need to do for base, I'd think. Once we had that notion, I can easily see there needing to be some sort of rust bindings for ATF/kyua as one of the first libraries / crates that would test that aspect of the build system. That all would be up to the people writing the tests in rust, I'd imagine. While I could jot out the basics of this integration (so one could just add the rust tools to a subdir or subdirs, include the bsd.rust.mk or whatever and then it would build if rust is enabled, and would emit a warning it was skipped because rust was disabled). We'd find out if this is workable or not and iterate from there. But that would also require active participation from the rust advocates to make it a reality: I can put together the build infrastructure for the disabled case, but likely can't on my own do the rust enabled case. I'd be happy to work with someone to do that, but I'm not going to be able to do that myself: my need for rust is slight, my knowledge of rust is weak, etc. Working with someone (or ideally several someones), though it could become reality. So please contact me if you'd like to work on this. Warner > 20.01.2024, 19:51, "Alan Somers" : > > In a recent thread on src-committers, we discussed the costs and > benefits of including Rust code in the FreeBSD base system. To > summarize, the cost is that it would double our build times. imp > suggested adding an additional step after buildworld for stuff that > requires an external toolchain. That would ease the build time pain. > The benefit is that some tools would become easier to write, or even > become possible. Here is a list of actual and potential Rust projects > that could benefit from being in-tree. If anybody else has items to > add, I suggest moving this into the project wiki: > > Stuff that could only be written in Rust if it were in base > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > * ctl-exporter (I started this, but discovered that the CTL stats API is > unstable, so it can't live in ports. Instead, I had to do it in C). > > https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/commit/1a7f22d9c211f504f6c48a86401= 469181a67ec34 > > * fusefs tests. Absolutely impossible to do in C. I considered Rust, but > went > with C++ so they could live in base. They are too closely coupled to > fusefs(5) to live out-of-tree. > https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/tree/main/tests/sys/fs/fusefs > > * devd. Currently C++, but imp suggested a rewrite. > https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/tree/main/sbin/devd > > * zfsd. Currently C++, but I've long pondered a rewrite. Using Rust would > make it more testable. > https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/tree/main/cddl/usr.sbin/zfsd > > * nscd. Currently C, but confusing and with no test coverage. I've > contemplated a rewrite myself, but I don't want to do it in C. > https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/tree/main/usr.sbin/nscd > > * The userland portion of the 802.11ac and Lightning stacks. scottl > suggested > that these were good candidates for Rust. > > * freebsd-kpi-r14-0 . https://crates.io/crates/freebsd-kpi-r14-0 > > Stuff that can live in ports, but would be nicer in base > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > * gstat-rs https://crates.io/crates/gstat > > * geom-exporter (I've started this, but haven't published it) > > * nfs-exporter https://crates.io/crates/freebsd-nfs-exporter > > * virtiofsd-rs . Nobody has yet tried to port it to FreeBSD. But if the > connection to bhyve(8) is too intimate, it might be hard to do in ports= . > https://gitlab.com/virtio-fs/virtiofsd > > * jail-exporter https://crates.io/crates/jail_exporter > > * Various jail managers have been attempted in Rust. I think these are > fine in > ports, but others like Goran Mekic have opined that they should be move= d > to > base instead. > > * musikid's pjdfstest rewrite. I think it would be great to start using > this > to test the base system's file systems. If the tests themselves lived i= n > base, they would be easier to sync with file system development. > https://github.com/musikid/pjdfstest > > * pf-rs. I suspect that the API isn't very stable. > https://crates.io/crates/pf-rs > > * benchpmc. The pmc counter names changes between releases. > https://crates.io/crates/benchpmc > > FreeBSD-related applications that are just fine in ports > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > * fsx-rs. Unlike pjdfstest, this only tests datapath APIs. Those are > usually > more stable than control path APIs, so I think there's little to be > gained by > moving this into base. https://crates.io/crates/fsx > > * ztop. It uses ZFS's kstats sysctl interface, which is pretty stable. > https://crates.io/crates/ztop > > * iocage-provision https://crates.io/crates/iocage-provision > > * rsblk https://crates.io/crates/rsblk > > * xfuse https://github.com/KhaledEmaraDev/xfuse > > Other FreeBSD-related libraries in Rust > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Just see the list at https://crates.io/keywords/freebsd > > --000000000000a39865060f682804 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 11:45=E2=80= =AFAM Aleksandr Fedorov <wignedd= oom@yandex.ru> wrote:
https://gith= ub.com/asomers/gstat-rs/blob/master/gstat/src/main.rs#L20

Is the= re any plan for which crates we should take into the base system?
=C2=A0
We have had C++ in base for many years, but I don=E2= =80=99t see any good libraries for CLI, logging, JSON, etc.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Where is the support for Freebsd as a primary platform? = ARM, RISC-V, Power? Should we rewrite devd?
=C2=A0
I think we need to start by providing official repositories (e.g git.FreeBSD.org/r= ust.git or = git.FreeBSD.org/go.git)
for different languages that include = stable bindings to the system API:
- sysctl
- libgeom
- libifconfig
- netgraph
- jail
- et= c.
=C2=A0
So that it=E2=80=99s not just some anonymous = on crates.io that repres= ents these bindings, but our community.
Officially, with support = for a stable ABI for releases, security patches, etc.
=C2=A0
After this, it will be possible to think about which components to in= clude in the base system.
=C2=A0
I would be glad t= o see a more modern language than C in the database, but I=E2=80=99m afraid= that it will be like with C++,
that we will get a couple of daem= ons and utilities and that=E2=80=99s all.

These are all good questions that need g= ood answers, though necessarily to get started.

Bu= t the other question that occured to me after my last posting was "Wha= t about build integration?"
How much of the rust automation = do we take in vs how much do we drive from a future bsd.rust.mk.
I can sketch out bsd.rust.mk (to pick an arbitrary name, we'd likely need on= e for what we traditionally
think of as libraries (which may or m= ay not map 1:1 onto crates: we could have c callable libraries
wr= itten in rust in the future, for example) and one for binaries.=C2=A0 Initi= ally, though, if we go with the
'make rust tests possible'= ; then we'd likely need the appropriate packages installed for whatever=
dependencies we'd have in the tests. This would give us a ta= ste for what we'd need to do for
base, I'd think. Once we= had that notion, I can easily see there needing to be some sort of
rust bindings for ATF/kyua as one of the first libraries / crates that w= ould test that aspect of
the build system. That all would be up t= o the people writing the tests in rust, I'd imagine.

=
While I could jot out the basics of this integration (so one cou= ld just add the rust
tools to a subdir or subdirs, include the bsd.rust.mk or whatever and then it would = build
if rust is enabled, and would emit a warning it was skipped= because rust was disabled).
We'd find out if this is workabl= e or not and iterate from there. But that would also require
acti= ve participation from the rust advocates to make it a reality: I can put to= gether the
build infrastructure for the disabled case, but likely= can't on my own do the rust enabled
case. I'd be happy t= o work with someone to do that, but I'm not going to be able to do
that myself: my need for rust is slight, my knowledge of rust is weak= , etc. Working with
someone (or ideally several someones), though= it could become reality. So please contact
me if you'd like = to work on this.

Warner
=C2=A0
20.01.2024, 19:5= 1, "Alan Somers" <asomers@freebsd.org>:

In a recent thread = on src-committers, we discussed the costs and
benefits of including Rust= code in the FreeBSD base system. To
summarize, the cost is that it woul= d double our build times. imp
suggested adding an additional step after = buildworld for stuff that
requires an external toolchain. That would eas= e the build time pain.
The benefit is that some tools would become easie= r to write, or even
become possible. Here is a list of actual and potent= ial Rust projects
that could benefit from being in-tree. If anybody else= has items to
add, I suggest moving this into the project wiki:

S= tuff that could only be written in Rust if it were in base
=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

* ctl-exporter (I started this, but discovered that = the CTL stats API is
=C2=A0=C2=A0unstable, so it can't live in ports= . Instead, I had to do it in C).
=C2=A0=C2=A0https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/commit/1a7f22d9c211f5= 04f6c48a86401469181a67ec34

* fusefs tests. Absolutely impossible= to do in C. I considered Rust, but went
=C2=A0=C2=A0with C++ so they co= uld live in base. They are too closely coupled to
=C2=A0=C2=A0fusefs(5) = to live out-of-tree.
=C2=A0=C2=A0https://github.= com/freebsd/freebsd-src/tree/main/tests/sys/fs/fusefs

* devd. Cu= rrently C++, but imp suggested a rewrite.
=C2=A0=C2=A0http= s://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/tree/main/sbin/devd

* zfsd. C= urrently C++, but I've long pondered a rewrite. Using Rust would
=C2= =A0=C2=A0make it more testable.
=C2=A0=C2=A0https= ://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/tree/main/cddl/usr.sbin/zfsd

*= nscd. Currently C, but confusing and with no test coverage. I've
= =C2=A0=C2=A0contemplated a rewrite myself, but I don't want to do it in= C.
=C2=A0=C2=A0https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src= /tree/main/usr.sbin/nscd

* The userland portion of the 802.11ac = and Lightning stacks. scottl suggested
=C2=A0=C2=A0that these were good = candidates for Rust.

* freebsd-kpi-r14-0 . https://crates.io/crates/fr= eebsd-kpi-r14-0

Stuff that can live in ports, but would be nicer= in base
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

* gstat-rs https://crates.io/crates/gstat
* geom-exporter (I've started this, but haven't published it)
=
* nfs-exporter https://crates.io/crates/freebsd-nfs-exporter
* virtiofsd-rs . Nobody has yet tried to port it to FreeBSD. But if the=C2=A0=C2=A0connection to bhyve(8) is too intimate, it might be hard to d= o in ports.
=C2=A0=C2=A0https://gitlab.com/virtio-fs/virtiofsd

* ja= il-exporter https://crates.io/crates/jail_exporter

* Various jail mana= gers have been attempted in Rust. I think these are fine in
=C2=A0=C2=A0= ports, but others like Goran Mekic have opined that they should be moved to=
=C2=A0=C2=A0base instead.

* musikid's pjdfstest rewrite. I t= hink it would be great to start using this
=C2=A0=C2=A0to test the base = system's file systems. If the tests themselves lived in
=C2=A0=C2=A0= base, they would be easier to sync with file system development.
=C2=A0= =C2=A0ht= tps://github.com/musikid/pjdfstest

* pf-rs. I suspect that the A= PI isn't very stable.
=C2=A0=C2=A0https://crates.io/crates/pf-rs

* benc= hpmc. The pmc counter names changes between releases.
=C2=A0=C2=A0https://crates.io= /crates/benchpmc

FreeBSD-related applications that are just fine= in ports
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

* fsx-rs. Unlike pjdfstest, thi= s only tests datapath APIs. Those are usually
=C2=A0=C2=A0more stable th= an control path APIs, so I think there's little to be gained by
=C2= =A0=C2=A0moving this into base. https://crates.io/crates/fsx

* ztop. It uses ZFS= 's kstats sysctl interface, which is pretty stable.
=C2=A0=C2=A0https://crates.io/c= rates/ztop

* iocage-provision https://crates.io/crates/iocage-provi= sion

* rsblk https://crates.io/crates/rsblk

* xfuse https://github.com= /KhaledEmaraDev/xfuse

Other FreeBSD-related libraries in Rust=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Just see the list at https://crates.= io/keywords/freebsd
=C2=A0
--000000000000a39865060f682804-- From nobody Sat Jan 20 22:35:30 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4THWXY6h2mz57fnw for ; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 22:35:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-ed1-x52c.google.com (mail-ed1-x52c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4THWXY3cDrz54ff for ; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 22:35:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-ed1-x52c.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-55a43f9a6c1so2006051a12.1 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 14:35:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1705790140; x=1706394940; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=TeqEA6JaFkOuJPzcOyO+N5ZIZ+NQFQD+juhIpuCc8N8=; b=FhEk5oORNgylV2HkRsNNr26vnZzZDxbCabTVYSzewdyuCsJUA0n0b0Vt0MVdRrmp18 TtoQm56orXoJX4V8l22sU6vW29DbJln7MeUqPIkpBX1JfeEuEs2ZAJppeDru043z+KGg Diopf/VzP0leKzDa6VFNgGvprsAN/hmF+dCVJj5rlsB6yecGI043GuaPUveeE89T5V4q ZCWkICoJG/Yf4ntcoxG7ytjQjqLDYF+ZGF1p09Wb+C8CvI4s+ohkC/jmb8A1Ep+QngfF BjUesTd7rq7fMiMKqKMye7qFb4XJlO4M9PKlAB8kdmU7BSA72kH4FGJ8Tjw3WM/qpa4S w7xg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1705790140; x=1706394940; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=TeqEA6JaFkOuJPzcOyO+N5ZIZ+NQFQD+juhIpuCc8N8=; b=YR8lwzksgmzKLFUJHcE5h0eEKIV10YLmW3/tnRpUmqkD2ZIK/9wFgM1dyMQkgsuB8g JeVS08D9eSvqOhW0dRaQs1lmQ5IXViz8jI5oEvih/7o+V8r91ww7FMvvANalXgwNMek6 Htb1AKVE3mA3tFOIkshXrnAdOR3lf1UEgziWZSaiZQysfbemwKo3KD6smsDfAF4L6lxz wSsUK6Zfv+vlPjRwIxcO9FZyaxlS1xo+wpbmYCgdSDtNklkSvT9lnCeFf2SpyRfSma3v GEfvik2RkIFi62ftLBwFbnFq8PEOT6ij8oMnXY1bdOk+lq2x9nXz2/obSrZVwnat+lqz R2/Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwfM0II8ZWrBC61vcgLP5kkNGL/2h/8GHGzo9w8KE23s08IM2kC ET5g64748JmmararHu7qj59AYPISb4Tw98WHMq52yzT9FdOiKc+V0ZlbCe3DAJerQ13+mN9fcw9 kJUrOlkO1hkstyEDLYiRwXmWWAe/4K5BsjvOr5Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGnHzBMvwuQw3ORXbDULOhWbPAhg6pXLh/N4P4sechho2IFr6+lem2UJEfZ3W1BkwY5oQYl1k6D8/Z93g9/3hY= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:30a7:b0:55a:181:a1e9 with SMTP id df7-20020a05640230a700b0055a0181a1e9mr1149525edb.69.1705790139575; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 14:35:39 -0800 (PST) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 15:35:30 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) To: Charlie Li Cc: Gleb Popov , Alan Somers , FreeBSD Hackers , Scott Long , "Goran Meki??" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000054c36d060f683774" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4THWXY3cDrz54ff X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] --00000000000054c36d060f683774 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 11:25=E2=80=AFAM Charlie Li w= rote: > Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > On Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 10:14=E2=80=AFAM Gleb Popov wrote: > > > > On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 7:51=E2=80=AFPM Alan Somers wrote: > > > To > > > summarize, the cost is that it would double our build times. > > > > Would it? From what I remember, a lot of rust's build time comes fr= om > > building its own LLVM. Can we reuse our base LLVM for Rust-in-base? > > > > > > No. That's not possible in general. Rust needs its own special thing > > that is not well tested fit the non rust case. > > > Rust has followed vanilla LLVM since 8.0 and they have supported the > external LLVM path since then. However, they use the shared library, LIT > and a few other extras, all of which we don't build or include in base. > They also have narrow LLVM version support windows, with only LLVM 15 > and later supported on Rust 1.74 and later. Further, release cycles are > about every month, which maybe unless we stick strictly to Editions > (language standards like C11, C++17, et al), sound like a problem for > -RELEASEs. > Yea, Rust's fast velocity coupled with narrow compatibility bands would be a bit of an impedance mismatch with the project. That's why I said it isn't possible in general (one of many reasons, the one I cited actually being obsolete it sounds). IT's the main reason why I'm suggesting that if we want rust in the base, it should be done via an external toolchain that the rust advocates would maintain via a port (just like the folks that want FreeBSD building via gcc have similar external toolchains). That way, there's not per-se dependency in base on this and we'd get a feel for how that works in practice as time passes and we have code on stable branches that needs to continue to work (to pick one potential issue at random). Until there's a way to reproducibly built programs, I maintain that it's too early to talk about rust compiler in base. Warner --00000000000054c36d060f683774 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 11:25=E2=80= =AFAM Charlie Li <vishwin@freebsd= .org> wrote:
Warner Losh wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 10:14=E2=80=AFAM Gleb Popov wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 7:51=E2=80=AFPM Alan Somers= wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > To
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > summarize, the cost is that it would double o= ur build times.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Would it? From what I remember, a lot of rust's= build time comes from
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0building its own LLVM. Can we reuse our base LLVM f= or Rust-in-base?
>
>
> No. That's not possible in general.=C2=A0 Rust needs its own speci= al thing
> that is not well tested fit the non rust case.
>
Rust has followed vanilla LLVM since 8.0 and they have supported the
external LLVM path since then. However, they use the shared library, LIT and a few other extras, all of which we don't build or include in base.=
They also have narrow LLVM version support windows, with only LLVM 15
and later supported on Rust 1.74 and later. Further, release cycles are about every month, which maybe unless we stick strictly to Editions
(language standards like C11, C++17, et al), sound like a problem for
-RELEASEs.

Yea, Rust's fast velocit= y coupled with narrow compatibility bands would
be a bit of an im= pedance mismatch with the project. That's why I said it
isn&#= 39;t possible in general (one of many reasons, the one I cited actually
being obsolete it sounds). IT's the main reason why I'm sugg= esting that
if we want rust in the base, it should be done via an= external toolchain that
the rust advocates would maintain via a = port (just like the folks that want
FreeBSD building via gcc have= similar external toolchains).=C2=A0 That way, there's
not pe= r-se dependency in base on this and we'd get a feel for how that
<= div>works in practice as time passes and we have code on stable branches
that needs to continue to work (to pick one potential issue at rand= om).
Until there's a way to reproducibly built programs, I ma= intain that it's
too early to talk about rust compiler in bas= e.

Warner
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protected-headers="v1" From: Charlie Li To: Juraj Lutter , Dimitry Andric Cc: Gleb Popov , Alan Somers , FreeBSD Hackers , Warner Losh , Scott Long , meka@tilda.center Message-ID: Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) References: <01519AEB-2725-492F-BC17-A7A40166D437@FreeBSD.org> <58D3A7DA-84D2-4C35-B9EB-5BD4BAA51706@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <58D3A7DA-84D2-4C35-B9EB-5BD4BAA51706@FreeBSD.org> --------------CWkTN30t0t1WXx0MFxgivPfj Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SnVyYWogTHV0dGVyIHdyb3RlOg0KPiBPbiAyMCBKYW4gMjAyNCwgYXQgMTg6MzQsIERpbWl0 cnkgQW5kcmljIHdyb3RlOg0KPj4gSXQgdXNlZCB0byBiZSB0aGUgY2FzZSB0aGF0IHRoZSBS dXN0IHBvcnQgY291bGQgbm90IHVzZSBhbiBMTFZNIHBvcnQsDQo+PiBidXQgaGFkIHRvIHVz ZSBpdHMgb3duIGNvcHksIGJ1dCBpdCBzZWVtcyB0aGF0IGFzIG9mDQo+PiBodHRwczovL2Nn aXQuZnJlZWJzZC5vcmcvcG9ydHMvY29tbWl0Lz9pZD0wOThkZTViYzIxOTUgaXQgaXMgcG9z c2libGUNCj4+IGFnYWluLg0KPiANCj4gU3BlYWtpbmcgb2YgdGhpczoNCj4gDQo+IEnigJl2 ZSBub3cgdHJpZWQgdG8gYnVpbGQgcnVzdCB3aXRoIGxsdm0xNSBvbiByZWxlbmcvMTMuMiBh bmQgYWxsIEnigJl2ZSBnb3QgDQo+IHdhczoNCj4gDQo+IHduLWZyZWVic2QvcmVsZWFzZS9k ZXBzL2NhcmdvLWRhYTE4YjZmZmI1ZGM1ZGEiICItV2wsLS1nYy1zZWN0aW9ucyIgDQo+ICIt cGllIiAiLVdsLC16LHJlbHJvLC16LG5vdyIgIi1XbCwtTzEiICItbm9kZWZhdWx0bGlicyIg Ii1XbCwteixvcmlnaW4iIA0KPiAiLVdsLC1ycGF0aA0KPiAsJE9SSUdJTi8uLi9saWIiDQo+ ICDCoCA9IG5vdGU6IGxkOiBlcnJvcjogcmVsb2NhdGlvbiBSX1g4Nl82NF8zMiBjYW5ub3Qg YmUgdXNlZCBhZ2FpbnN0IA0KPiBsb2NhbCBzeW1ib2w7IHJlY29tcGlsZSB3aXRoIC1mUElD DQo+ICDCoCDCoCDCoCDCoCDCoCA+Pj4gZGVmaW5lZCBpbiANCj4gL3dya2RpcnMvdXNyL3Bv cnRzL2xhbmcvcnVzdC93b3JrL19idWlsZC94ODZfNjQtdW5rbm93bi1mcmVlYnNkL3N0YWdl MS10b29scy94ODZfNjQtdW5rbm93bi1mcmVlYnNkL3JlbGVhc2UvZGVwcy9saWJsaWJzc2gy X3N5DQo+IHMtYTYwYWYzMDkzYWRjODdjOS5ybGliKGFnZW50Lm8pDQo+ICDCoCDCoCDCoCDC oCDCoCA+Pj4gcmVmZXJlbmNlZCBieSBhZ2VudC5vOihsaWJzc2gyX2FnZW50X2luaXQpIGlu IGFyY2hpdmUgDQo+IC93cmtkaXJzL3Vzci9wb3J0cy9sYW5nL3J1c3Qvd29yay9fYnVpbGQv eDg2XzY0LXVua25vd24tZnJlZWJzZC9zdGFnZTEtdG9vbHMveDg2XzY0DQo+IC11bmtub3du LWZyZWVic2QvcmVsZWFzZS9kZXBzL2xpYmxpYnNzaDJfc3lzLWE2MGFmMzA5M2FkYzg3Yzku cmxpYg0KPiANCj4gDQo+IElzIHRoaXMgc29tZXRoaW5nIHRoYXQgY2FuIGJlIGZpeGVkIGVh c2lseT8NCj4gDQpJIGhhdmVuJ3Qgc2VlbiBhbnkgb3RoZXIgcmVwb3J0cyBvZiB0aGlzIHll dC4gSG93ZXZlciwgd2hlbiBidWlsZGluZyANCndpdGggZXh0ZXJuYWwgTExWTSwgZXZlbiB0 aG91Z2ggY29tcGF0aWJpbGl0eSBiYW5kcyBleGlzdCwgaXQgaXMgYWx3YXlzIA0KcmVjb21t ZW5kZWQgdG8gdXNlIHRoZSBsYXRlc3QgTExWTSByZWxlYXNlLCBjdXJyZW50bHkgMTcuDQoN Ci0tIA0KQ2hhcmxpZSBMaQ0KLi4ubm9wZSwgc3RpbGwgZG9uJ3QgaGF2ZSBhbiBleGl0IGxp bmUuDQoNCg== --------------CWkTN30t0t1WXx0MFxgivPfj-- --------------N4fH40XR4A6wQKMY0IgazMtm Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; 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Sat, 20 Jan 2024 15:22:59 -0800 (PST) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1673801705774097@mail.yandex.ru> In-Reply-To: From: Alan Somers Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 16:22:47 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) To: Warner Losh Cc: Aleksandr Fedorov , FreeBSD Hackers , Scott Long , "meka@tilda.center" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4THXb909Dvz3xJw X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US] On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 3:31=E2=80=AFPM Warner Losh wrote: > > > > On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 11:45=E2=80=AFAM Aleksandr Fedorov wrote: >> >> What about external dependencies? >> >> https://github.com/Axcient/freebsd-nfs-exporter/blob/master/Cargo.toml#L= 19 >> https://github.com/asomers/gstat-rs/blob/master/gstat/src/main.rs#L20 >> >> Is there any plan for which crates we should take into the base system? >> >> We have had C++ in base for many years, but I don=E2=80=99t see any good= libraries for CLI, logging, JSON, etc. >> >> https://doc.rust-lang.org/rustc/platform-support.html#tier-1-with-host-t= ools >> >> Where is the support for Freebsd as a primary platform? ARM, RISC-V, Pow= er? Should we rewrite devd? >> >> I think we need to start by providing official repositories (e.g git.Fre= eBSD.org/rust.git or git.FreeBSD.org/go.git) >> for different languages that include stable bindings to the system API: >> - sysctl >> - libgeom >> - libifconfig >> - netgraph >> - jail >> - etc. >> >> So that it=E2=80=99s not just some anonymous on crates.io that represent= s these bindings, but our community. >> Officially, with support for a stable ABI for releases, security patches= , etc. >> >> After this, it will be possible to think about which components to inclu= de in the base system. >> >> I would be glad to see a more modern language than C in the database, bu= t I=E2=80=99m afraid that it will be like with C++, >> that we will get a couple of daemons and utilities and that=E2=80=99s al= l. > > > These are all good questions that need good answers, though necessarily t= o get started. > > But the other question that occured to me after my last posting was "What= about build integration?" > How much of the rust automation do we take in vs how much do we drive fro= m a future bsd.rust.mk. > I can sketch out bsd.rust.mk (to pick an arbitrary name, we'd likely need= one for what we traditionally > think of as libraries (which may or may not map 1:1 onto crates: we could= have c callable libraries > written in rust in the future, for example) and one for binaries. Initia= lly, though, if we go with the > 'make rust tests possible' then we'd likely need the appropriate packages= installed for whatever > dependencies we'd have in the tests. This would give us a taste for what = we'd need to do for > base, I'd think. Once we had that notion, I can easily see there needing = to be some sort of > rust bindings for ATF/kyua as one of the first libraries / crates that wo= uld test that aspect of > the build system. That all would be up to the people writing the tests in= rust, I'd imagine. > > While I could jot out the basics of this integration (so one could just a= dd the rust > tools to a subdir or subdirs, include the bsd.rust.mk or whatever and the= n it would build > if rust is enabled, and would emit a warning it was skipped because rust = was disabled). > We'd find out if this is workable or not and iterate from there. But that= would also require > active participation from the rust advocates to make it a reality: I can = put together the > build infrastructure for the disabled case, but likely can't on my own do= the rust enabled > case. I'd be happy to work with someone to do that, but I'm not going to = be able to do > that myself: my need for rust is slight, my knowledge of rust is weak, et= c. Working with > someone (or ideally several someones), though it could become reality. So= please contact > me if you'd like to work on this. That sounds like a reasonable approach. But what would be the first tool or test suite to write in Rust? The fusefs tests are now 16 kSLOC and I don't fancy rewriting them. The tests that I DO want to write are those that involve fsx-rs. But those won't actually need bsd.rust.mk, because they'll just be short sh scripts that invoke a tool from ports. I just need a ports committer to approve https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D276005 . ATM I don't have a ready project to be imp's guinea pig. -Alan From nobody Sat Jan 20 23:50:29 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4THYC83S9vz57nHB for ; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 23:50:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-qk1-x72e.google.com (mail-qk1-x72e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4THYC74j93z41GF for ; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 23:50:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-qk1-x72e.google.com with SMTP id af79cd13be357-7831ed13d39so198238185a.0 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 15:50:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; t=1705794642; x=1706399442; darn=freebsd.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=qPpcKWtJs/+UQWWTFkMWoeuT5hR05gxwDF4kmRygqx4=; b=Y60h2od2E/k3QwiJUurbQP2UB4kUKakLQqSCRqtVUfANqjuBK+nFmO51aMbcda3eLZ y3/5qDQMPHN/77513ktMOMS9jiu2+nGCcNcIY9GlfivOnktykBf8doI1FwRvUzEu2fxa hGzB9AJPFHBpXx9JMM6Btpk4KyT86aizLDNQ7SaXtDG6xSnITscWSIDhvS6y1vy2DxCA xrd/xH+JdBnf1/TR5OO2YDw1W37EJOOrxCNTYy6H296nYf4TH6/NAOYBLJtoKvkk5Jap DSxI/fiL5qgwxHPC5ifqS0QAMSMeSXUGcDWsOiF9097nXTbhPjjATOOdxpFr20wwelWa j5gw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1705794642; x=1706399442; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=qPpcKWtJs/+UQWWTFkMWoeuT5hR05gxwDF4kmRygqx4=; b=cSyA/4KJgOKTabMPMFscm4NAtd1ykqIW4tNY6IEiegHa+oaFOlIUkU5JY1TOls2N3+ 3cEphMtOkqPapWCLKGMwMKTr0swtZIsWRomSKYojuFi8b//kHq10vixVKOn6Ss8xG8dh 4sZcjU06w2eqoWJZ3T3qUMhXNBfzvP6Zc43KwMbZoflIbJ3CygqapQM+mceLpGn+5ZHe ZNrivWSuMu8JWbrtOAGaf5PoF6iU5C5xqFcoRDExl4DC2JL08p0MMdlFW0v3pXssicz4 ixX3ftbagUnv36m01vXwB7C1LW6NF9qG/Vc8iQZ6hScPBw+6k7RdP1HzJw3ctGBl5Cd0 YJuw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyRhd2XLNCoRvNQsr04ccB6PDpHTtT5MQ9Jh95tVXXN5RCwLIoA S+EMADUmC1Y3RDUNDX00P/CKy+aL2rc74Pe0xPvgrjr0BpZL8rfX/UYhf8nN2w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGUBn5x9GHE1LpajXNyzQGHdAE+R3TIKunopeeS7Cfo/KV2ocgxvsEGghkeN/lRvmf12t4xsQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:5220:b0:783:8dec:2240 with SMTP id dc32-20020a05620a522000b007838dec2240mr2676464qkb.125.1705794642074; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 15:50:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-f176.google.com (mail-qk1-f176.google.com. [209.85.222.176]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y14-20020a37e30e000000b00783862e1a89sm909263qki.11.2024.01.20.15.50.41 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 20 Jan 2024 15:50:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-f176.google.com with SMTP id af79cd13be357-78313f4d149so206662685a.1; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 15:50:41 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:118d:b0:783:6831:70e3 with SMTP id b13-20020a05620a118d00b00783683170e3mr2591969qkk.142.1705794641305; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 15:50:41 -0800 (PST) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Tomek CEDRO Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2024 00:50:29 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) To: Warner Losh Cc: Alan Somers , FreeBSD Hackers , "Goran Meki??" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4THYC74j93z41GF X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 7:37=E2=80=AFPM Warner Losh wrote: > (..) > So no, we aren't going to rush headlong into fullscale rust replacement o= f all the things. However I'll note Linux hasn't done that either. They are= taking a one step at a time approach. Step one is build integration with a= n external toolchain, imho. Until we have that, 0 Rust will be in the syste= m. We already can do ports... but if you want it more central the first ste= ps will be in making it possible to build rust binaries at all in a repeata= ble way. Good points IMP :-) Aside from complex and quickly changing / evolving / time and energy consuming dependencies this is a different programming language that requires solid group of developers while most people already know C they would have to invest time to learn Rust and its environment. All this puts heavy weight into core OS that was always minimal and expandable with the ports tree and I would love it to stay that way. Solid backward/forward (and self) compatibility and long term maintenance are the strongest parts of the FreeBSD. Also new Rust tools can be implemented as ports to provide "new" and "better" functionalities competing with existing tools but not to replace them. If that works don't fix it + freedom of choice versus history rewrite :-) I should add here some positive remark that I am aware of efficiency of some Rust tools that could not be implemented otherwise. For instance ARM's CMSIS Pack Manager is implemented in Rust (even as Python module) and only this approach provided decent efficiency as compared to previous C/C++ implementation. This is additional module to pyOCD (On-Chip-Debugger utility implemented in Python) that provides important but still _optional_ and _external_ functionality. This tandem works fine and people have a choice on what they want to use. -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From nobody Sun Jan 21 02:06:11 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4THcCm0zKdz581R8 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 02:06:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Received: from www121.sakura.ne.jp (www121.sakura.ne.jp [153.125.133.21]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4THcCl2pWSz4HN2; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 02:06:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from kalamity.joker.local (123-1-91-49.area1b.commufa.jp [123.1.91.49]) (authenticated bits=0) by www121.sakura.ne.jp (8.17.1/8.17.1/[SAKURA-WEB]/20201212) with ESMTPA id 40L26BUV010146; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 11:06:12 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2024 11:06:11 +0900 From: Tomoaki AOKI To: Warner Losh Cc: Aleksandr Fedorov , Alan Somers , FreeBSD Hackers , Scott Long , "meka@tilda.center" Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) Message-Id: <20240121110611.af567b0ac3a8fd8593ffcb7f@dec.sakura.ne.jp> In-Reply-To: References: <1673801705774097@mail.yandex.ru> Organization: Junchoon corps X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.33; amd64-portbld-freebsd14.0) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4THcCl2pWSz4HN2 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7684, ipnet:153.125.128.0/18, country:JP] On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 15:31:23 -0700 Warner Losh wrote: > On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 11:45 AM Aleksandr Fedorov > wrote: > > > What about external dependencies? > > > > https://github.com/Axcient/freebsd-nfs-exporter/blob/master/Cargo.toml#L19 > > https://github.com/asomers/gstat-rs/blob/master/gstat/src/main.rs#L20 > > > > Is there any plan for which crates we should take into the base system? > > > > We have had C++ in base for many years, but I don’t see any good libraries > > for CLI, logging, JSON, etc. > > > > > > https://doc.rust-lang.org/rustc/platform-support.html#tier-1-with-host-tools > > > > Where is the support for Freebsd as a primary platform? ARM, RISC-V, > > Power? Should we rewrite devd? > > > > I think we need to start by providing official repositories (e.g > > git.FreeBSD.org/rust.git or git.FreeBSD.org/go.git) > > for different languages that include stable bindings to the system API: > > - sysctl > > - libgeom > > - libifconfig > > - netgraph > > - jail > > - etc. > > > > So that it’s not just some anonymous on crates.io that represents these > > bindings, but our community. > > Officially, with support for a stable ABI for releases, security patches, > > etc. > > > > After this, it will be possible to think about which components to include > > in the base system. > > > > I would be glad to see a more modern language than C in the database, but > > I’m afraid that it will be like with C++, > > that we will get a couple of daemons and utilities and that’s all. > > > > These are all good questions that need good answers, though necessarily to > get started. > > But the other question that occured to me after my last posting was "What > about build integration?" > How much of the rust automation do we take in vs how much do we drive from > a future bsd.rust.mk. > I can sketch out bsd.rust.mk (to pick an arbitrary name, we'd likely need > one for what we traditionally > think of as libraries (which may or may not map 1:1 onto crates: we could > have c callable libraries > written in rust in the future, for example) and one for binaries. > Initially, though, if we go with the > 'make rust tests possible' then we'd likely need the appropriate packages > installed for whatever > dependencies we'd have in the tests. This would give us a taste for what > we'd need to do for > base, I'd think. Once we had that notion, I can easily see there needing to > be some sort of > rust bindings for ATF/kyua as one of the first libraries / crates that > would test that aspect of > the build system. That all would be up to the people writing the tests in > rust, I'd imagine. > > While I could jot out the basics of this integration (so one could just add > the rust > tools to a subdir or subdirs, include the bsd.rust.mk or whatever and then > it would build > if rust is enabled, and would emit a warning it was skipped because rust > was disabled). > We'd find out if this is workable or not and iterate from there. But that > would also require > active participation from the rust advocates to make it a reality: I can > put together the > build infrastructure for the disabled case, but likely can't on my own do > the rust enabled > case. I'd be happy to work with someone to do that, but I'm not going to be > able to do > that myself: my need for rust is slight, my knowledge of rust is weak, etc. > Working with > someone (or ideally several someones), though it could become reality. So > please contact > me if you'd like to work on this. > > Warner One way to go could be moving programs rewritten with rust to ports. There are some programs (not in rust, though) moved to ports, like rcs. Currently, it would not be so realistic, but once we completely switch to pkgbase, IIUC, programs in base can sanely depemd on ports programs, excluding kernel and fundamental libraries. As non-rust consumers of graphics/librsvg2-rust can sanely link with it, I assume kmods in ports written in rust can kldload'ed sanely. This could be a good starting point. And would be not all, but test for rust libraries could be implemented with C/C++ or any other language suitable, if the rust libraries can sanely linked with test codes. Am I wrong? > > 20.01.2024, 19:51, "Alan Somers" : > > > > In a recent thread on src-committers, we discussed the costs and > > benefits of including Rust code in the FreeBSD base system. To > > summarize, the cost is that it would double our build times. imp > > suggested adding an additional step after buildworld for stuff that > > requires an external toolchain. That would ease the build time pain. > > The benefit is that some tools would become easier to write, or even > > become possible. Here is a list of actual and potential Rust projects > > that could benefit from being in-tree. If anybody else has items to > > add, I suggest moving this into the project wiki: > > > > Stuff that could only be written in Rust if it were in base > > =========================================================== > > > > * ctl-exporter (I started this, but discovered that the CTL stats API is > > unstable, so it can't live in ports. Instead, I had to do it in C). > > > > https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/commit/1a7f22d9c211f504f6c48a86401469181a67ec34 > > > > * fusefs tests. Absolutely impossible to do in C. I considered Rust, but > > went > > with C++ so they could live in base. They are too closely coupled to > > fusefs(5) to live out-of-tree. > > https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/tree/main/tests/sys/fs/fusefs > > > > * devd. Currently C++, but imp suggested a rewrite. > > https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/tree/main/sbin/devd > > > > * zfsd. Currently C++, but I've long pondered a rewrite. Using Rust would > > make it more testable. > > https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/tree/main/cddl/usr.sbin/zfsd > > > > * nscd. Currently C, but confusing and with no test coverage. I've > > contemplated a rewrite myself, but I don't want to do it in C. > > https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/tree/main/usr.sbin/nscd > > > > * The userland portion of the 802.11ac and Lightning stacks. scottl > > suggested > > that these were good candidates for Rust. > > > > * freebsd-kpi-r14-0 . https://crates.io/crates/freebsd-kpi-r14-0 > > > > Stuff that can live in ports, but would be nicer in base > > ======================================================== > > > > * gstat-rs https://crates.io/crates/gstat > > > > * geom-exporter (I've started this, but haven't published it) > > > > * nfs-exporter https://crates.io/crates/freebsd-nfs-exporter > > > > * virtiofsd-rs . Nobody has yet tried to port it to FreeBSD. But if the > > connection to bhyve(8) is too intimate, it might be hard to do in ports. > > https://gitlab.com/virtio-fs/virtiofsd > > > > * jail-exporter https://crates.io/crates/jail_exporter > > > > * Various jail managers have been attempted in Rust. I think these are > > fine in > > ports, but others like Goran Mekic have opined that they should be moved > > to > > base instead. > > > > * musikid's pjdfstest rewrite. I think it would be great to start using > > this > > to test the base system's file systems. If the tests themselves lived in > > base, they would be easier to sync with file system development. > > https://github.com/musikid/pjdfstest > > > > * pf-rs. I suspect that the API isn't very stable. > > https://crates.io/crates/pf-rs > > > > * benchpmc. The pmc counter names changes between releases. > > https://crates.io/crates/benchpmc > > > > FreeBSD-related applications that are just fine in ports > > ========================================================= > > > > * fsx-rs. Unlike pjdfstest, this only tests datapath APIs. Those are > > usually > > more stable than control path APIs, so I think there's little to be > > gained by > > moving this into base. https://crates.io/crates/fsx > > > > * ztop. It uses ZFS's kstats sysctl interface, which is pretty stable. > > https://crates.io/crates/ztop > > > > * iocage-provision https://crates.io/crates/iocage-provision > > > > * rsblk https://crates.io/crates/rsblk > > > > * xfuse https://github.com/KhaledEmaraDev/xfuse > > > > Other FreeBSD-related libraries in Rust > > ======================================= > > Just see the list at https://crates.io/keywords/freebsd -- Tomoaki AOKI From nobody Sun Jan 21 02:19:55 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4THcWZ20QMz582Pj for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 02:20:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asomers@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qt1-f176.google.com (mail-qt1-f176.google.com [209.85.160.176]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4THcWZ05V7z4JX3; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 02:20:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asomers@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-qt1-f176.google.com with SMTP id d75a77b69052e-429fc7a1eacso21947191cf.2; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 18:20:10 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1705803609; x=1706408409; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=C1wkEMTjODFXuksI8+9RB/epgV0GbmEx+DFdhrV9n6k=; b=eilyj3BiUJxW7rSiF7WnUL66VZlARgIBhNQHAE12UmMLLNvnHKWFTsnaKmUWIVfLzD ScEitLCMN+LGbWerV01Y9YCHhhK2VE2fnvnIP97cWhs3giTGBSkWYVgCArZ+9wIgHHqL gp3kOkKThxs0+KyAqEqaPoOrrINcaz6fumKwM96nyLi1fgzhfJyjnRhCRwXGY65fc8WB 86pFxGS9U4dTgKhUyFl9hlShSwCNZecIPjEYVc0kjW3qCNOkLQF/Nv8P3kobPv2U33Gm oiqgC8cUozDQna1yD9QZZb9DhAErk6+sbBcyahKNoFmBAlnLdM2n0oR2ZzB7eJnsWgdz e7KQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyOneCcEBw1A96A2kDOPl69iuHwIiFq6OQMG8vu2dknb8+XmR7H 1j6hjJ0zCTVYwsUGkM7U4T7I7trlFBATQqf1N3t4P8M0ruQWlU0DO0JZxg6szBaMxFSWKHsMUk6 7C+SKGj9LJAEIU6KS+Ih3zoqIGME= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFxERWxsi7fN/b0dQr4kC4wL4U5Oqr+bpAl/V5KUNDuYowm0SWF3ulxqgIbtLbCTJ7mSsIYr+86SfNX+6tmJnk= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:21a6:b0:681:7571:c508 with SMTP id t6-20020a05621421a600b006817571c508mr3065955qvc.7.1705803607453; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 18:20:07 -0800 (PST) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1673801705774097@mail.yandex.ru> <20240121110611.af567b0ac3a8fd8593ffcb7f@dec.sakura.ne.jp> In-Reply-To: <20240121110611.af567b0ac3a8fd8593ffcb7f@dec.sakura.ne.jp> From: Alan Somers Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 19:19:55 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) To: Tomoaki AOKI Cc: Warner Losh , Aleksandr Fedorov , FreeBSD Hackers , Scott Long , "meka@tilda.center" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4THcWZ05V7z4JX3 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US] On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 7:06=E2=80=AFPM Tomoaki AOKI wrote: > > On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 15:31:23 -0700 > Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 11:45=E2=80=AFAM Aleksandr Fedorov > > wrote: > > > > > What about external dependencies? > > > > > > https://github.com/Axcient/freebsd-nfs-exporter/blob/master/Cargo.tom= l#L19 > > > https://github.com/asomers/gstat-rs/blob/master/gstat/src/main.rs#L20 > > > > > > Is there any plan for which crates we should take into the base syste= m? > > > > > > We have had C++ in base for many years, but I don=E2=80=99t see any g= ood libraries > > > for CLI, logging, JSON, etc. > > > > > > > > > https://doc.rust-lang.org/rustc/platform-support.html#tier-1-with-hos= t-tools > > > > > > Where is the support for Freebsd as a primary platform? ARM, RISC-V, > > > Power? Should we rewrite devd? > > > > > > I think we need to start by providing official repositories (e.g > > > git.FreeBSD.org/rust.git or git.FreeBSD.org/go.git) > > > for different languages that include stable bindings to the system AP= I: > > > - sysctl > > > - libgeom > > > - libifconfig > > > - netgraph > > > - jail > > > - etc. > > > > > > So that it=E2=80=99s not just some anonymous on crates.io that repres= ents these > > > bindings, but our community. > > > Officially, with support for a stable ABI for releases, security patc= hes, > > > etc. > > > > > > After this, it will be possible to think about which components to in= clude > > > in the base system. > > > > > > I would be glad to see a more modern language than C in the database,= but > > > I=E2=80=99m afraid that it will be like with C++, > > > that we will get a couple of daemons and utilities and that=E2=80=99s= all. > > > > > > > These are all good questions that need good answers, though necessarily= to > > get started. > > > > But the other question that occured to me after my last posting was "Wh= at > > about build integration?" > > How much of the rust automation do we take in vs how much do we drive f= rom > > a future bsd.rust.mk. > > I can sketch out bsd.rust.mk (to pick an arbitrary name, we'd likely ne= ed > > one for what we traditionally > > think of as libraries (which may or may not map 1:1 onto crates: we cou= ld > > have c callable libraries > > written in rust in the future, for example) and one for binaries. > > Initially, though, if we go with the > > 'make rust tests possible' then we'd likely need the appropriate packag= es > > installed for whatever > > dependencies we'd have in the tests. This would give us a taste for wha= t > > we'd need to do for > > base, I'd think. Once we had that notion, I can easily see there needin= g to > > be some sort of > > rust bindings for ATF/kyua as one of the first libraries / crates that > > would test that aspect of > > the build system. That all would be up to the people writing the tests = in > > rust, I'd imagine. > > > > While I could jot out the basics of this integration (so one could just= add > > the rust > > tools to a subdir or subdirs, include the bsd.rust.mk or whatever and t= hen > > it would build > > if rust is enabled, and would emit a warning it was skipped because rus= t > > was disabled). > > We'd find out if this is workable or not and iterate from there. But th= at > > would also require > > active participation from the rust advocates to make it a reality: I ca= n > > put together the > > build infrastructure for the disabled case, but likely can't on my own = do > > the rust enabled > > case. I'd be happy to work with someone to do that, but I'm not going t= o be > > able to do > > that myself: my need for rust is slight, my knowledge of rust is weak, = etc. > > Working with > > someone (or ideally several someones), though it could become reality. = So > > please contact > > me if you'd like to work on this. > > > > Warner > > One way to go could be moving programs rewritten with rust to ports. > There are some programs (not in rust, though) moved to ports, like rcs. I've already done this with a few, though I didn't delete the C versions from base. usr.bin/gstat =3D> sysutils/gstat-rs tools/regression/fsx =3D> devel/fsx > > Currently, it would not be so realistic, but once we completely switch > to pkgbase, IIUC, programs in base can sanely depemd on ports programs, > excluding kernel and fundamental libraries. > > As non-rust consumers of graphics/librsvg2-rust can sanely link with > it, I assume kmods in ports written in rust can kldload'ed sanely. > This could be a good starting point. > > And would be not all, but test for rust libraries could be implemented > with C/C++ or any other language suitable, if the rust libraries can > sanely linked with test codes. Yes, if the Rust library implements a C interface, which most don't. > > Am I wrong? From nobody Sun Jan 21 03:30:55 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4THf5V2yPqz5884N for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 03:31:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-wm1-x32a.google.com (mail-wm1-x32a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4THf5V0djKz4PY0 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 03:31:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-wm1-x32a.google.com with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-40e86a9fc4bso27091345e9.2 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 19:31:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1705807867; x=1706412667; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=cCxrEOaKv/lDs3/gg58OCxyiPik5Tcb+Ftrduy7BA48=; b=wD1bW0PSc090Zf+h53BM7Mq41gFr7P3ftWEGK2R6Sp/CRvOto4dqhSuxGCN8js+c4H 62CNRFzv6iOuZIEIHR5vCMSRZQlUILxRR7EhOlSC+UH4Dtt6hs43giJJuidi5eG+0sN+ YjypUwIByt/rJFN1I/lBuZQROFjau8BDIgLHV1e4OF/J8pRrxc0wleMaUPodZNunc6wB kC5LROuv5r931avwGWJkAzytbTGJlprgtxasyOHNM1nn5hS6VvU+78m/ml5Q4VePnejP 3dNYCXuIPqtqL56GMjdKplF22pvmMVyOskQLDSlgDDIcFBJb6bDYXh+Anw4qKmNDHdzg GyDg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1705807867; x=1706412667; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=cCxrEOaKv/lDs3/gg58OCxyiPik5Tcb+Ftrduy7BA48=; b=cAtZsiFrVDatg9cKDt+7Hk2wwm1NirT3CqIlzrsmGaT3OY0jh0tdPT0riLTDjX9UpK T5Mzg6iviEXvB0OdFoiEe/ItMm8Tqwvu8xpZP2rt3TrSmHmAB94oLn5mGmU1ZpkkvXOt Psxe7I3ewIFN17aXpr8wOGruZ0v5hebJvWIzKcRSYFYON8vplTCD8yXdTiVOobYWQJtK r0aXm0bdiRkJF4TApQSQOIZ7ct5tFodKnIOP34IVgVoIlXa/QXaTm5+AWdqbSc/vQQke M5MUSxk/32RFQfZ4lf/Q9N0E/Ci8SlhEfO1cj8XiNWPzhZrl2PoeURrkRIDarUkwFXBx 85Zg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyqgCl0Dg50UZUDoMs1YoUqGxpHhaFy1e36d3q6VKoOSz8WjYrH AgwM4sXX+E1rzgzt1PD5KBQ/D2n85KSz0prxPeGuQQ05CR5QHT6TTlmKUiWXCI4IM1OW3OXYPjb Q9y9ENYpnoteEjJ1JVSGJMgjEh1iQbHMwt2L+og== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFMYY+YxmSsboiToxa5Nl5IPMYkgZ9PibNMa9HxXOltc0vg4f/1eBYRSH5vIUb7mwU4OtJ9D1QSAUZu1op55Gk= X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:5253:b0:40e:6087:89b7 with SMTP id fc19-20020a05600c525300b0040e608789b7mr1092977wmb.107.1705807867175; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 19:31:07 -0800 (PST) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1673801705774097@mail.yandex.ru> <20240121110611.af567b0ac3a8fd8593ffcb7f@dec.sakura.ne.jp> In-Reply-To: <20240121110611.af567b0ac3a8fd8593ffcb7f@dec.sakura.ne.jp> From: Warner Losh Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 20:30:55 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) To: Tomoaki AOKI Cc: Aleksandr Fedorov , Alan Somers , FreeBSD Hackers , Scott Long , "Goran Meki??" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fa7706060f6c5723" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4THf5V0djKz4PY0 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] --000000000000fa7706060f6c5723 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 7:06=E2=80=AFPM Tomoaki AOKI wrote: > On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 15:31:23 -0700 > Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 11:45=E2=80=AFAM Aleksandr Fedorov > > > wrote: > > > > > What about external dependencies? > > > > > > > https://github.com/Axcient/freebsd-nfs-exporter/blob/master/Cargo.toml#L1= 9 > > > https://github.com/asomers/gstat-rs/blob/master/gstat/src/main.rs#L20 > > > > > > Is there any plan for which crates we should take into the base syste= m? > > > > > > We have had C++ in base for many years, but I don=E2=80=99t see any g= ood > libraries > > > for CLI, logging, JSON, etc. > > > > > > > > > > https://doc.rust-lang.org/rustc/platform-support.html#tier-1-with-host-to= ols > > > > > > Where is the support for Freebsd as a primary platform? ARM, RISC-V, > > > Power? Should we rewrite devd? > > > > > > I think we need to start by providing official repositories (e.g > > > git.FreeBSD.org/rust.git or git.FreeBSD.org/go.git) > > > for different languages that include stable bindings to the system AP= I: > > > - sysctl > > > - libgeom > > > - libifconfig > > > - netgraph > > > - jail > > > - etc. > > > > > > So that it=E2=80=99s not just some anonymous on crates.io that repres= ents > these > > > bindings, but our community. > > > Officially, with support for a stable ABI for releases, security > patches, > > > etc. > > > > > > After this, it will be possible to think about which components to > include > > > in the base system. > > > > > > I would be glad to see a more modern language than C in the database, > but > > > I=E2=80=99m afraid that it will be like with C++, > > > that we will get a couple of daemons and utilities and that=E2=80=99s= all. > > > > > > > These are all good questions that need good answers, though necessarily > to > > get started. > > > > But the other question that occured to me after my last posting was "Wh= at > > about build integration?" > > How much of the rust automation do we take in vs how much do we drive > from > > a future bsd.rust.mk. > > I can sketch out bsd.rust.mk (to pick an arbitrary name, we'd likely > need > > one for what we traditionally > > think of as libraries (which may or may not map 1:1 onto crates: we cou= ld > > have c callable libraries > > written in rust in the future, for example) and one for binaries. > > Initially, though, if we go with the > > 'make rust tests possible' then we'd likely need the appropriate packag= es > > installed for whatever > > dependencies we'd have in the tests. This would give us a taste for wha= t > > we'd need to do for > > base, I'd think. Once we had that notion, I can easily see there needin= g > to > > be some sort of > > rust bindings for ATF/kyua as one of the first libraries / crates that > > would test that aspect of > > the build system. That all would be up to the people writing the tests = in > > rust, I'd imagine. > > > > While I could jot out the basics of this integration (so one could just > add > > the rust > > tools to a subdir or subdirs, include the bsd.rust.mk or whatever and > then > > it would build > > if rust is enabled, and would emit a warning it was skipped because rus= t > > was disabled). > > We'd find out if this is workable or not and iterate from there. But th= at > > would also require > > active participation from the rust advocates to make it a reality: I ca= n > > put together the > > build infrastructure for the disabled case, but likely can't on my own = do > > the rust enabled > > case. I'd be happy to work with someone to do that, but I'm not going t= o > be > > able to do > > that myself: my need for rust is slight, my knowledge of rust is weak, > etc. > > Working with > > someone (or ideally several someones), though it could become reality. = So > > please contact > > me if you'd like to work on this. > > > > Warner > > One way to go could be moving programs rewritten with rust to ports. > There are some programs (not in rust, though) moved to ports, like rcs. > Yes. And a number of programs have been made available as ports, but not too many replace c programs. Currently, it would not be so realistic, but once we completely switch > to pkgbase, IIUC, programs in base can sanely depemd on ports programs, > excluding kernel and fundamental libraries. Possible, but I'd wager not for quite some time for fundamental things. I could be wrong on this timeline... As non-rust consumers of graphics/librsvg2-rust can sanely link with > it, I assume kmods in ports written in rust can kldload'ed sanely. > This could be a good starting point. > Kernel modules are far off om the horizon at this point. There was a proof of concept done years ago, but much has changed so an effort is needed to get back to that basic point. And would be not all, but test for rust libraries could be implemented > with C/C++ or any other language suitable, if the rust libraries can > sanely linked with test codes. > That's not a given... ABIs are hard enough without a C to rust layer sneaking in. Warner Am I wrong? > > > > > 20.01.2024, 19:51, "Alan Somers" : > > > > > > In a recent thread on src-committers, we discussed the costs and > > > benefits of including Rust code in the FreeBSD base system. To > > > summarize, the cost is that it would double our build times. imp > > > suggested adding an additional step after buildworld for stuff that > > > requires an external toolchain. That would ease the build time pain. > > > The benefit is that some tools would become easier to write, or even > > > become possible. Here is a list of actual and potential Rust projects > > > that could benefit from being in-tree. If anybody else has items to > > > add, I suggest moving this into the project wiki: > > > > > > Stuff that could only be written in Rust if it were in base > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > > > > * ctl-exporter (I started this, but discovered that the CTL stats API > is > > > unstable, so it can't live in ports. Instead, I had to do it in C). > > > > > > > https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/commit/1a7f22d9c211f504f6c48a86401= 469181a67ec34 > > > > > > * fusefs tests. Absolutely impossible to do in C. I considered Rust, > but > > > went > > > with C++ so they could live in base. They are too closely coupled t= o > > > fusefs(5) to live out-of-tree. > > > https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/tree/main/tests/sys/fs/fusef= s > > > > > > * devd. Currently C++, but imp suggested a rewrite. > > > https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/tree/main/sbin/devd > > > > > > * zfsd. Currently C++, but I've long pondered a rewrite. Using Rust > would > > > make it more testable. > > > https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/tree/main/cddl/usr.sbin/zfsd > > > > > > * nscd. Currently C, but confusing and with no test coverage. I've > > > contemplated a rewrite myself, but I don't want to do it in C. > > > https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/tree/main/usr.sbin/nscd > > > > > > * The userland portion of the 802.11ac and Lightning stacks. scottl > > > suggested > > > that these were good candidates for Rust. > > > > > > * freebsd-kpi-r14-0 . https://crates.io/crates/freebsd-kpi-r14-0 > > > > > > Stuff that can live in ports, but would be nicer in base > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > > > > * gstat-rs https://crates.io/crates/gstat > > > > > > * geom-exporter (I've started this, but haven't published it) > > > > > > * nfs-exporter https://crates.io/crates/freebsd-nfs-exporter > > > > > > * virtiofsd-rs . Nobody has yet tried to port it to FreeBSD. But if t= he > > > connection to bhyve(8) is too intimate, it might be hard to do in > ports. > > > https://gitlab.com/virtio-fs/virtiofsd > > > > > > * jail-exporter https://crates.io/crates/jail_exporter > > > > > > * Various jail managers have been attempted in Rust. I think these ar= e > > > fine in > > > ports, but others like Goran Mekic have opined that they should be > moved > > > to > > > base instead. > > > > > > * musikid's pjdfstest rewrite. I think it would be great to start usi= ng > > > this > > > to test the base system's file systems. If the tests themselves > lived in > > > base, they would be easier to sync with file system development. > > > https://github.com/musikid/pjdfstest > > > > > > * pf-rs. I suspect that the API isn't very stable. > > > https://crates.io/crates/pf-rs > > > > > > * benchpmc. The pmc counter names changes between releases. > > > https://crates.io/crates/benchpmc > > > > > > FreeBSD-related applications that are just fine in ports > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > > > > * fsx-rs. Unlike pjdfstest, this only tests datapath APIs. Those are > > > usually > > > more stable than control path APIs, so I think there's little to be > > > gained by > > > moving this into base. https://crates.io/crates/fsx > > > > > > * ztop. It uses ZFS's kstats sysctl interface, which is pretty stable= . > > > https://crates.io/crates/ztop > > > > > > * iocage-provision https://crates.io/crates/iocage-provision > > > > > > * rsblk https://crates.io/crates/rsblk > > > > > > * xfuse https://github.com/KhaledEmaraDev/xfuse > > > > > > Other FreeBSD-related libraries in Rust > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > Just see the list at https://crates.io/keywords/freebsd > > > -- > Tomoaki AOKI > --000000000000fa7706060f6c5723 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 7:06=E2=80=AFPM Tomoaki AOKI <= ;junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp= > wrote:
On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 15:= 31:23 -0700
Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 11:45=E2=80=AFAM Aleksandr Fedorov <wigne= ddoom@yandex.ru>
> wrote:
>
> > What about external dependencies?
> >
> > https= ://github.com/Axcient/freebsd-nfs-exporter/blob/master/Cargo.toml#L19 > > https://gi= thub.com/asomers/gstat-rs/blob/master/gstat/src/main.rs#L20
> >
> > Is there any plan for which crates we should take into the base s= ystem?
> >
> > We have had C++ in base for many years, but I don=E2=80=99t see a= ny good libraries
> > for CLI, logging, JSON, etc.
> >
> >
> > htt= ps://doc.rust-lang.org/rustc/platform-support.html#tier-1-with-host-tools
> >
> > Where is the support for Freebsd as a primary platform? ARM, RISC= -V,
> > Power? Should we rewrite devd?
> >
> > I think we need to start by providing official repositories (e.g<= br> > > git.FreeBSD.org/rust.git or g= it.FreeBSD.org/go.git)
> > for different languages that include stable bindings to the syste= m API:
> > - sysctl
> > - libgeom
> > - libifconfig
> > - netgraph
> > - jail
> > - etc.
> >
> > So that it=E2=80=99s not just some anonymous on crates.io t= hat represents these
> > bindings, but our community.
> > Officially, with support for a stable ABI for releases, security = patches,
> > etc.
> >
> > After this, it will be possible to think about which components t= o include
> > in the base system.
> >
> > I would be glad to see a more modern language than C in the datab= ase, but
> > I=E2=80=99m afraid that it will be like with C++,
> > that we will get a couple of daemons and utilities and that=E2=80= =99s all.
> >
>
> These are all good questions that need good answers, though necessaril= y to
> get started.
>
> But the other question that occured to me after my last posting was &q= uot;What
> about build integration?"
> How much of the rust automation do we take in vs how much do we drive = from
> a future bsd.rust.mk.
> I can sketch out bsd.rust.mk (to pick an arbitrary name, we= 9;d likely need
> one for what we traditionally
> think of as libraries (which may or may not map 1:1 onto crates: we co= uld
> have c callable libraries
> written in rust in the future, for example) and one for binaries.
> Initially, though, if we go with the
> 'make rust tests possible' then we'd likely need the appro= priate packages
> installed for whatever
> dependencies we'd have in the tests. This would give us a taste fo= r what
> we'd need to do for
> base, I'd think. Once we had that notion, I can easily see there n= eeding to
> be some sort of
> rust bindings for ATF/kyua as one of the first libraries / crates that=
> would test that aspect of
> the build system. That all would be up to the people writing the tests= in
> rust, I'd imagine.
>
> While I could jot out the basics of this integration (so one could jus= t add
> the rust
> tools to a subdir or subdirs, include the bsd.rust.mk or whate= ver and then
> it would build
> if rust is enabled, and would emit a warning it was skipped because ru= st
> was disabled).
> We'd find out if this is workable or not and iterate from there. B= ut that
> would also require
> active participation from the rust advocates to make it a reality: I c= an
> put together the
> build infrastructure for the disabled case, but likely can't on my= own do
> the rust enabled
> case. I'd be happy to work with someone to do that, but I'm no= t going to be
> able to do
> that myself: my need for rust is slight, my knowledge of rust is weak,= etc.
> Working with
> someone (or ideally several someones), though it could become reality.= So
> please contact
> me if you'd like to work on this.
>
> Warner

One way to go could be moving programs rewritten with rust to ports.
There are some programs (not in rust, though) moved to ports, like rcs.
=

Yes.= And a number of programs have been made available as ports, but not too ma= ny replace c programs.

<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">
Currently, it would not be so realistic, but once we completely switch
to pkgbase, IIUC, programs in base can sanely depemd on ports programs,
excluding kernel and fundamental libraries.

Possible, but I'd wager not for = quite some time for fundamental things. I could be wrong on this timeline..= .

As non-rust consumers of graphics/librsvg2-rust can sanely link with
it, I assume kmods in ports written in rust can kldload'ed sanely.
This could be a good starting point.

Kernel modules are far off om the hor= izon at this point. There was a proof of concept done years ago, but much h= as changed so an effort is needed to get back to that basic point.

And would be not all, but test for rust libraries could be implemented
with C/C++ or any other language suitable, if the rust libraries can
sanely linked with test codes.

That's not a given... ABIs are hard enoug= h without a C to rust layer sneaking in.

<= div dir=3D"auto">Warner

=
Am I wrong?


> > 20.01.2024, 19:51, "Alan Somers" <asomers@freebsd.o= rg>:
> >
> > In a recent thread on src-committers, we discussed the costs and<= br> > > benefits of including Rust code in the FreeBSD base system. To > > summarize, the cost is that it would double our build times. imp<= br> > > suggested adding an additional step after buildworld for stuff th= at
> > requires an external toolchain. That would ease the build time pa= in.
> > The benefit is that some tools would become easier to write, or e= ven
> > become possible. Here is a list of actual and potential Rust proj= ects
> > that could benefit from being in-tree. If anybody else has items = to
> > add, I suggest moving this into the project wiki:
> >
> > Stuff that could only be written in Rust if it were in base
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> >
> > * ctl-exporter (I started this, but discovered that the CTL stats= API is
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0unstable, so it can't live in ports. Instead, I h= ad to do it in C).
> >
> > https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/commit/1a7f22d9c211f504f6c48a= 86401469181a67ec34
> >
> > * fusefs tests. Absolutely impossible to do in C. I considered Ru= st, but
> > went
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0with C++ so they could live in base. They are too clo= sely coupled to
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0fusefs(5) to live out-of-tree.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/tree/main/tests/sys/fs/fusefs > >
> > * devd. Currently C++, but imp suggested a rewrite.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://g= ithub.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/tree/main/sbin/devd
> >
> > * zfsd. Currently C++, but I've long pondered a rewrite. Usin= g Rust would
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0make it more testable.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0= https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/tree/main/cddl/usr.sbin/zfsd
> >
> > * nscd. Currently C, but confusing and with no test coverage. I&#= 39;ve
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0contemplated a rewrite myself, but I don't want t= o do it in C.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0https= ://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/tree/main/usr.sbin/nscd
> >
> > * The userland portion of the 802.11ac and Lightning stacks. scot= tl
> > suggested
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0that these were good candidates for Rust.
> >
> > * freebsd-kpi-r14-0 . https://crates.= io/crates/freebsd-kpi-r14-0
> >
> > Stuff that can live in ports, but would be nicer in base
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> >
> > * gstat-rs https://crates.io/crates/gstat
> >
> > * geom-exporter (I've started this, but haven't published= it)
> >
> > * nfs-exporter https://crates.io/c= rates/freebsd-nfs-exporter
> >
> > * virtiofsd-rs . Nobody has yet tried to port it to FreeBSD. But = if the
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0connection to bhyve(8) is too intimate, it might be h= ard to do in ports.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://gitlab.com/virtio-fs/= virtiofsd
> >
> > * jail-exporter https://crates.io/crates/= jail_exporter
> >
> > * Various jail managers have been attempted in Rust. I think thes= e are
> > fine in
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0ports, but others like Goran Mekic have opined that t= hey should be moved
> > to
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0base instead.
> >
> > * musikid's pjdfstest rewrite. I think it would be great to s= tart using
> > this
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0to test the base system's file systems. If the te= sts themselves lived in
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0base, they would be easier to sync with file system d= evelopment.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://github.com/musikid/pjd= fstest
> >
> > * pf-rs. I suspect that the API isn't very stable.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://crates.io/crates/pf-rs > >
> > * benchpmc. The pmc counter names changes between releases.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://crates.io/crates/benchpmc<= /a>
> >
> > FreeBSD-related applications that are just fine in ports
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> >
> > * fsx-rs. Unlike pjdfstest, this only tests datapath APIs. Those = are
> > usually
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0more stable than control path APIs, so I think there&= #39;s little to be
> > gained by
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0moving this into base. https://crates.i= o/crates/fsx
> >
> > * ztop. It uses ZFS's kstats sysctl interface, which is prett= y stable.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://crates.io/crates/ztop
> >
> > * iocage-provision https://crates.io/c= rates/iocage-provision
> >
> > * rsblk https://crates.io/crates/rsblk
> >
> > * xfuse https://github.com/KhaledEmara= Dev/xfuse
> >
> > Other FreeBSD-related libraries in Rust
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > Just see the list at https://crates.io/keywor= ds/freebsd


--
Tomoaki AOKI=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp>
--000000000000fa7706060f6c5723-- From nobody Sun Jan 21 03:43:53 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4THfNN11P6z589Xh for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 03:44:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-ed1-x531.google.com (mail-ed1-x531.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::531]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4THfNM5lYVz4QyW for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 03:44:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-ed1-x531.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-55c02619a93so456554a12.3 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 19:44:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1705808642; x=1706413442; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=H92rVvrBreax8DLr7XnDPBoa76FyvHsjmYtWGvmSnwI=; b=n8NHHW7xQmFgUNG3dswd+j9EMjLuHGCaIAt+QDu6sMmQNpwEzWYvS042Y88K0rq//d v+kzkMV5s4VSZ+YD0kXJgczGkxIeRzGYEm2aQ8ycGxcnZUgisX1lESdri+uvRGFUIyv/ NoenIo3UYa92kW5ez+1QqB71UMRmM/kz4oGnAW5vuHECb8qxnJuj+RZwHGJkDNEmPFEc 6c2e7TZjFa5eH9PhRiH7N0HJz69zubl3Oc6HwA0URpLFY/xZoWMmBOh538O3j1Lwr27q tiBZEVmkSb3S5vdlV6gIIURCIyXsjrn6ixPpffSOqnVY0USmieKBVtazMpv/0RZbYuda N9Nw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1705808642; x=1706413442; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=H92rVvrBreax8DLr7XnDPBoa76FyvHsjmYtWGvmSnwI=; b=sNoif+05rwZDl45ghjIrCOZ8N5Cr08cpSJvLDbkcpcl/csugVTlB9RzpgoXSHkov3m 8AF+ZN19Jwesx9gzwMLFsfS2xSyCVtrxR1Hkhy9JtO8M4eqPwKUow2bAaCI2f2fY6P+3 AHwTTdpNWeVbbdmfI/sfFFUdO359wqyok7wcbO9nEmsmsZtG//rc2CoLFROf1SFw0IVR aSEX3Kseki2z8oMiP2n59r3/4qahfkepykA4/BgSNJ8NSBQquuEccExT8PFBUFN1r8Dh cIjcfvLLaQuEf+uzQKkf0W+FnOlNfryeq1Rd1u9Vmsp/P6ULxXN7FSWZgkYpoukMRP+j oWEA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Ywq7N3di4kzKK8WCfanA7u8mUj/iyyyTy2lC4n5GIEyy1wu/OJl pggJCH8qjn7BRpEorqhH8+IEbb+gJ6uXJzH7Pu0dgrJpjKNj9MWogIcl76KMMTu9WUKUVM7xSIG My7U+0xnw1C7NKifCM+tOvdl3VUJgR3EO2CoHvg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGY9LA4+Cq9UdnSPfNO9ZEJzEvYJ3d+EfnkMzckkZ2KKSUwqzaw8LVBnr+fmdThEJBATCuF3caVxh2nT7kRs5Y= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:35cb:b0:559:d75f:4902 with SMTP id z11-20020a05640235cb00b00559d75f4902mr1315912edc.74.1705808641958; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 19:44:01 -0800 (PST) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1673801705774097@mail.yandex.ru> <20240121110611.af567b0ac3a8fd8593ffcb7f@dec.sakura.ne.jp> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 20:43:53 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) To: Alan Somers Cc: Tomoaki AOKI , Aleksandr Fedorov , FreeBSD Hackers , Scott Long , "Goran Meki??" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000028b509060f6c86b6" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4THfNM5lYVz4QyW X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] --00000000000028b509060f6c86b6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 7:20=E2=80=AFPM Alan Somers wro= te: > On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 7:06=E2=80=AFPM Tomoaki AOKI > wrote: > > > > On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 15:31:23 -0700 > > Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 11:45=E2=80=AFAM Aleksandr Fedorov < > wigneddoom@yandex.ru> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > What about external dependencies? > > > > > > > > > https://github.com/Axcient/freebsd-nfs-exporter/blob/master/Cargo.toml#L1= 9 > > > > > https://github.com/asomers/gstat-rs/blob/master/gstat/src/main.rs#L20 > > > > > > > > Is there any plan for which crates we should take into the base > system? > > > > > > > > We have had C++ in base for many years, but I don=E2=80=99t see any= good > libraries > > > > for CLI, logging, JSON, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://doc.rust-lang.org/rustc/platform-support.html#tier-1-with-host-to= ols > > > > > > > > Where is the support for Freebsd as a primary platform? ARM, RISC-V= , > > > > Power? Should we rewrite devd? > > > > > > > > I think we need to start by providing official repositories (e.g > > > > git.FreeBSD.org/rust.git or git.FreeBSD.org/go.git) > > > > for different languages that include stable bindings to the system > API: > > > > - sysctl > > > > - libgeom > > > > - libifconfig > > > > - netgraph > > > > - jail > > > > - etc. > > > > > > > > So that it=E2=80=99s not just some anonymous on crates.io that repr= esents > these > > > > bindings, but our community. > > > > Officially, with support for a stable ABI for releases, security > patches, > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > After this, it will be possible to think about which components to > include > > > > in the base system. > > > > > > > > I would be glad to see a more modern language than C in the > database, but > > > > I=E2=80=99m afraid that it will be like with C++, > > > > that we will get a couple of daemons and utilities and that=E2=80= =99s all. > > > > > > > > > > These are all good questions that need good answers, though > necessarily to > > > get started. > > > > > > But the other question that occured to me after my last posting was > "What > > > about build integration?" > > > How much of the rust automation do we take in vs how much do we drive > from > > > a future bsd.rust.mk. > > > I can sketch out bsd.rust.mk (to pick an arbitrary name, we'd likely > need > > > one for what we traditionally > > > think of as libraries (which may or may not map 1:1 onto crates: we > could > > > have c callable libraries > > > written in rust in the future, for example) and one for binaries. > > > Initially, though, if we go with the > > > 'make rust tests possible' then we'd likely need the appropriate > packages > > > installed for whatever > > > dependencies we'd have in the tests. This would give us a taste for > what > > > we'd need to do for > > > base, I'd think. Once we had that notion, I can easily see there > needing to > > > be some sort of > > > rust bindings for ATF/kyua as one of the first libraries / crates tha= t > > > would test that aspect of > > > the build system. That all would be up to the people writing the test= s > in > > > rust, I'd imagine. > > > > > > While I could jot out the basics of this integration (so one could > just add > > > the rust > > > tools to a subdir or subdirs, include the bsd.rust.mk or whatever and > then > > > it would build > > > if rust is enabled, and would emit a warning it was skipped because > rust > > > was disabled). > > > We'd find out if this is workable or not and iterate from there. But > that > > > would also require > > > active participation from the rust advocates to make it a reality: I > can > > > put together the > > > build infrastructure for the disabled case, but likely can't on my ow= n > do > > > the rust enabled > > > case. I'd be happy to work with someone to do that, but I'm not going > to be > > > able to do > > > that myself: my need for rust is slight, my knowledge of rust is weak= , > etc. > > > Working with > > > someone (or ideally several someones), though it could become reality= . > So > > > please contact > > > me if you'd like to work on this. > > > > > > Warner > > > > One way to go could be moving programs rewritten with rust to ports. > > There are some programs (not in rust, though) moved to ports, like rcs. > > I've already done this with a few, though I didn't delete the C > versions from base. > usr.bin/gstat =3D> sysutils/gstat-rs > tools/regression/fsx =3D> devel/fsx > So % size `which gstat-rs` `which gstat` text data bss dec hex filename 2094442 176472 568 2271482 0x22a8fa /usr/local/sbin/gstat-rs 19350 1180 41 20571 0x505b /usr/sbin/gstat % file `which gstat-rs` `which gstat` /usr/local/sbin/gstat-rs: ELF 64-bit LSB pie executable, ARM aarch64, version 1 (FreeBSD), dynamically linked, interpreter /libexec/ld-elf.so.1, FreeBSD-style, stripped /usr/sbin/gstat: ELF 64-bit LSB pie executable, ARM aarch64, version 1 (FreeBSD), dynamically linked, interpreter /libexec/ld-elf.so.1, for FreeBSD 15.0 (1500008), FreeBSD-style, stripped 8:36pm brazos:[3826]> ldd `which gstat-rs` `which gstat` /usr/local/sbin/gstat-rs: libgeom.so.5 =3D> /lib/libgeom.so.5 (0x60fd38647000) libthr.so.3 =3D> /lib/libthr.so.3 (0x60fd38b57000) libgcc_s.so.1 =3D> /lib/libgcc_s.so.1 (0x60fd39af1000) libc.so.7 =3D> /lib/libc.so.7 (0x60fd3be6f000) libbsdxml.so.4 =3D> /lib/libbsdxml.so.4 (0x60fd3a009000) libsbuf.so.6 =3D> /lib/libsbuf.so.6 (0x60fd3a55e000) /usr/sbin/gstat: libdevstat.so.7 =3D> /lib/libdevstat.so.7 (0x448867cd000) libgeom.so.5 =3D> /lib/libgeom.so.5 (0x4488710b000) libedit.so.8 =3D> /lib/libedit.so.8 (0x44887f8d000) libtinfow.so.9 =3D> /lib/libtinfow.so.9 (0x44888aab000) libncursesw.so.9 =3D> /lib/libncursesw.so.9 (0x44889c60000) libc.so.7 =3D> /lib/libc.so.7 (0x4488aaf4000) libkvm.so.7 =3D> /lib/libkvm.so.7 (0x44888f77000) libbsdxml.so.4 =3D> /lib/libbsdxml.so.4 (0x4488ba02000) libsbuf.so.6 =3D> /lib/libsbuf.so.6 (0x4488c68d000) libelf.so.2 =3D> /lib/libelf.so.2 (0x4488ca45000) So that looks scary, like rust is 100x larger binaries... But at runtime it's about the same: USER PID %CPU %MEM VSZ RSS TT STAT STARTED TIME COMMAND imp 14735 0.0 0.0 14140 4828 0 S+ 20:38 0:00.04 gstat imp 14766 1.3 0.0 15772 6256 0 S+ 20:39 0:00.02 gstat-rs So the runtime size is at least in the same ballpark (still larger, but not crazy larger). More CPU too, but that's just a polling artifact I think (other times gstat had some, and gstat-rs didn't). Why is the rust binary so much larger? Are the rust runtime and dependencies statically linked? Warner > > > Currently, it would not be so realistic, but once we completely switch > > to pkgbase, IIUC, programs in base can sanely depemd on ports programs, > > excluding kernel and fundamental libraries. > > > > As non-rust consumers of graphics/librsvg2-rust can sanely link with > > it, I assume kmods in ports written in rust can kldload'ed sanely. > > This could be a good starting point. > > > > And would be not all, but test for rust libraries could be implemented > > with C/C++ or any other language suitable, if the rust libraries can > > sanely linked with test codes. > > Yes, if the Rust library implements a C interface, which most don't. > > > > > Am I wrong? > --00000000000028b509060f6c86b6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 7:20=E2=80=AFPM= Alan Somers <a= somers@freebsd.org> wrote:
O= n Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 7:06=E2=80=AFPM Tomoaki AOKI <junchoon@dec= .sakura.ne.jp> wrote:
>
> On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 15:31:23 -0700
> Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 11:45=E2=80=AFAM Aleksandr Fedorov <= wigneddoom@yandex.ru>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > What about external dependencies?
> > >
> > > = https://github.com/Axcient/freebsd-nfs-exporter/blob/master/Cargo.toml#L19<= /a>
> > > https= ://github.com/asomers/gstat-rs/blob/master/gstat/src/main.rs#L20
> > >
> > > Is there any plan for which crates we should take into the b= ase system?
> > >
> > > We have had C++ in base for many years, but I don=E2=80=99t = see any good libraries
> > > for CLI, logging, JSON, etc.
> > >
> > >
> > > https://doc.rust-lang.org/rustc/platform-support.html#tier-1-with-host-to= ols
> > >
> > > Where is the support for Freebsd as a primary platform? ARM,= RISC-V,
> > > Power? Should we rewrite devd?
> > >
> > > I think we need to start by providing official repositories = (e.g
> > > git.FreeBSD.org/rust.git or git.FreeBSD.org/go.git)
> > > for different languages that include stable bindings to the = system API:
> > > - sysctl
> > > - libgeom
> > > - libifconfig
> > > - netgraph
> > > - jail
> > > - etc.
> > >
> > > So that it=E2=80=99s not just some anonymous on crates.io<= /a> that represents these
> > > bindings, but our community.
> > > Officially, with support for a stable ABI for releases, secu= rity patches,
> > > etc.
> > >
> > > After this, it will be possible to think about which compone= nts to include
> > > in the base system.
> > >
> > > I would be glad to see a more modern language than C in the = database, but
> > > I=E2=80=99m afraid that it will be like with C++,
> > > that we will get a couple of daemons and utilities and that= =E2=80=99s all.
> > >
> >
> > These are all good questions that need good answers, though neces= sarily to
> > get started.
> >
> > But the other question that occured to me after my last posting w= as "What
> > about build integration?"
> > How much of the rust automation do we take in vs how much do we d= rive from
> > a future bsd.rust.mk.
> > I can sketch out bsd.rust.mk (to pick an arbitrary name, = we'd likely need
> > one for what we traditionally
> > think of as libraries (which may or may not map 1:1 onto crates: = we could
> > have c callable libraries
> > written in rust in the future, for example) and one for binaries.=
> > Initially, though, if we go with the
> > 'make rust tests possible' then we'd likely need the = appropriate packages
> > installed for whatever
> > dependencies we'd have in the tests. This would give us a tas= te for what
> > we'd need to do for
> > base, I'd think. Once we had that notion, I can easily see th= ere needing to
> > be some sort of
> > rust bindings for ATF/kyua as one of the first libraries / crates= that
> > would test that aspect of
> > the build system. That all would be up to the people writing the = tests in
> > rust, I'd imagine.
> >
> > While I could jot out the basics of this integration (so one coul= d just add
> > the rust
> > tools to a subdir or subdirs, include the bsd.rust.mk or = whatever and then
> > it would build
> > if rust is enabled, and would emit a warning it was skipped becau= se rust
> > was disabled).
> > We'd find out if this is workable or not and iterate from the= re. But that
> > would also require
> > active participation from the rust advocates to make it a reality= : I can
> > put together the
> > build infrastructure for the disabled case, but likely can't = on my own do
> > the rust enabled
> > case. I'd be happy to work with someone to do that, but I'= ;m not going to be
> > able to do
> > that myself: my need for rust is slight, my knowledge of rust is = weak, etc.
> > Working with
> > someone (or ideally several someones), though it could become rea= lity. So
> > please contact
> > me if you'd like to work on this.
> >
> > Warner
>
> One way to go could be moving programs rewritten with rust to ports. > There are some programs (not in rust, though) moved to ports, like rcs= .

I've already done this with a few, though I didn't delete the C
versions from base.
usr.bin/gstat =3D> sysutils/gstat-rs
tools/regression/fsx =3D> devel/fsx

So
% size `which gstat-rs` `which gstat`=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0text =C2=A0 =C2=A0 data =C2=A0 bss =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 dec =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0hex =C2=A0 filename
=C2=A0 2094442= =C2=A0 176472 =C2=A0 568 =C2=A0 2271482 =C2=A0 0x22a8fa =C2=A0 /usr/local/= sbin/gstat-rs
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 19350 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 1180 =C2=A0 =C2=A041 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 20571 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 0x505b =C2=A0 /usr/sbin/gstat
= % file `which gstat-rs` `which gstat`
/usr/local/sbin/gstat-rs: ELF 64-b= it LSB pie executable, ARM aarch64, version 1 (FreeBSD), dynamically linked= , interpreter /libexec/ld-elf.so.1, FreeBSD-style, stripped
/usr/sbin/gs= tat: =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ELF 64-bit LSB pie executable, ARM a= arch64, version 1 (FreeBSD), dynamically linked, interpreter /libexec/ld-el= f.so.1, for FreeBSD 15.0 (1500008), FreeBSD-style, stripped
8:36pm brazo= s:[3826]> ldd `which gstat-rs` `which gstat`
/usr/local/sbin/gstat-rs= :
libgeom.so.5 =3D> /lib/libgeom.so.5 (0x60fd38647000)
libthr.so= .3 =3D> /lib/libthr.so.3 (0x60fd38b57000)
libgcc_s.so.1 =3D> /lib= /libgcc_s.so.1 (0x60fd39af1000)
libc.so.7 =3D> /lib/libc.so.7 (0x60f= d3be6f000)
libbsdxml.so.4 =3D> /lib/libbsdxml.so.4 (0x60fd3a009000)<= br> libsbuf.so.6 =3D> /lib/libsbuf.so.6 (0x60fd3a55e000)
/usr/sbin/gs= tat:
libdevstat.so.7 =3D> /lib/libdevstat.so.7 (0x448867cd000)
l= ibgeom.so.5 =3D> /lib/libgeom.so.5 (0x4488710b000)
libedit.so.8 =3D&= gt; /lib/libedit.so.8 (0x44887f8d000)
libtinfow.so.9 =3D> /lib/libti= nfow.so.9 (0x44888aab000)
libncursesw.so.9 =3D> /lib/libncursesw.so.= 9 (0x44889c60000)
libc.so.7 =3D> /lib/libc.so.7 (0x4488aaf4000)
= libkvm.so.7 =3D> /lib/libkvm.so.7 (0x44888f77000)
libbsdxml.so.4 =3D= > /lib/libbsdxml.so.4 (0x4488ba02000)
libsbuf.so.6 =3D> /lib/libs= buf.so.6 (0x4488c68d000)
libelf.so.2 =3D> /lib/libelf.so.2 (0x4488ca= 45000)

So that looks scary, like rust is 100x larg= er binaries...=C2=A0 But at runtime it's about the same:
USER= =C2=A0 =C2=A0PID =C2=A0 %CPU %MEM =C2=A0 VSZ =C2=A0 RSS TT =C2=A0STAT STAR= TED =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 TIME COMMAND
imp =C2=A0 14735 =C2= =A0 =C2=A00.0 =C2=A00.0 14140 =C2=A04828 =C2=A00 =C2=A0S+ =C2=A0 20:38 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A00:00.04 gstat
imp =C2=A0 14766 =C2=A0 =C2= =A01.3 =C2=A00.0 15772 =C2=A06256 =C2=A00 =C2=A0S+ =C2=A0 20:39 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A00:00.02 gstat-rs

So the runtime s= ize is at least in the same ballpark (still larger, but not crazy larger). = More CPU too,
but that's just a polling artifact I think (oth= er times gstat had some, and gstat-rs didn't).

=
Why is the rust binary so much larger? Are the rust runtime and depend= encies statically linked?

Warner

>
> Currently, it would not be so realistic, but once we completely switch=
> to pkgbase, IIUC, programs in base can sanely depemd on ports programs= ,
> excluding kernel and fundamental libraries.
>
> As non-rust consumers of graphics/librsvg2-rust can sanely link with > it, I assume kmods in ports written in rust can kldload'ed sanely.=
> This could be a good starting point.
>
> And would be not all, but test for rust libraries could be implemented=
> with C/C++ or any other language suitable, if the rust libraries can > sanely linked with test codes.

Yes, if the Rust library implements a C interface, which most don't.
>
> Am I wrong?
--00000000000028b509060f6c86b6-- From nobody Sun Jan 21 04:03:39 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4THfqH58Tvz58CBm for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 04:03:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from kib.kiev.ua (kib.kiev.ua [IPv6:2001:470:d5e7:1::1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4THfqH1Gm2z4TMD for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 04:03:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from tom.home (kib@localhost [127.0.0.1] (may be forged)) by kib.kiev.ua (8.17.1/8.17.1) with ESMTP id 40L43d5s093075; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 06:03:42 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 kib.kiev.ua 40L43d5s093075 Received: (from kostik@localhost) by tom.home (8.17.1/8.17.1/Submit) id 40L43d1a093074; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 06:03:39 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) X-Authentication-Warning: tom.home: kostik set sender to kostikbel@gmail.com using -f Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2024 06:03:39 +0200 From: Konstantin Belousov To: Warner Losh Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) Message-ID: References: <1673801705774097@mail.yandex.ru> <20240121110611.af567b0ac3a8fd8593ffcb7f@dec.sakura.ne.jp> List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED,FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD,FREEMAIL_FROM, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=4.0.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0 (2022-12-14) on tom.home X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4THfqH1Gm2z4TMD X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US] On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 08:43:53PM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > On Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 7:20 PM Alan Somers wrote: > > > On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 7:06 PM Tomoaki AOKI > > wrote: > > > > > > On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 15:31:23 -0700 > > > Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > > On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 11:45 AM Aleksandr Fedorov < > > wigneddoom@yandex.ru> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > What about external dependencies? > > > > > > > > > > > > https://github.com/Axcient/freebsd-nfs-exporter/blob/master/Cargo.toml#L19 > > > > > > > https://github.com/asomers/gstat-rs/blob/master/gstat/src/main.rs#L20 > > > > > > > > > > Is there any plan for which crates we should take into the base > > system? > > > > > > > > > > We have had C++ in base for many years, but I don’t see any good > > libraries > > > > > for CLI, logging, JSON, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://doc.rust-lang.org/rustc/platform-support.html#tier-1-with-host-tools > > > > > > > > > > Where is the support for Freebsd as a primary platform? ARM, RISC-V, > > > > > Power? Should we rewrite devd? > > > > > > > > > > I think we need to start by providing official repositories (e.g > > > > > git.FreeBSD.org/rust.git or git.FreeBSD.org/go.git) > > > > > for different languages that include stable bindings to the system > > API: > > > > > - sysctl > > > > > - libgeom > > > > > - libifconfig > > > > > - netgraph > > > > > - jail > > > > > - etc. > > > > > > > > > > So that it’s not just some anonymous on crates.io that represents > > these > > > > > bindings, but our community. > > > > > Officially, with support for a stable ABI for releases, security > > patches, > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > After this, it will be possible to think about which components to > > include > > > > > in the base system. > > > > > > > > > > I would be glad to see a more modern language than C in the > > database, but > > > > > I’m afraid that it will be like with C++, > > > > > that we will get a couple of daemons and utilities and that’s all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > These are all good questions that need good answers, though > > necessarily to > > > > get started. > > > > > > > > But the other question that occured to me after my last posting was > > "What > > > > about build integration?" > > > > How much of the rust automation do we take in vs how much do we drive > > from > > > > a future bsd.rust.mk. > > > > I can sketch out bsd.rust.mk (to pick an arbitrary name, we'd likely > > need > > > > one for what we traditionally > > > > think of as libraries (which may or may not map 1:1 onto crates: we > > could > > > > have c callable libraries > > > > written in rust in the future, for example) and one for binaries. > > > > Initially, though, if we go with the > > > > 'make rust tests possible' then we'd likely need the appropriate > > packages > > > > installed for whatever > > > > dependencies we'd have in the tests. This would give us a taste for > > what > > > > we'd need to do for > > > > base, I'd think. Once we had that notion, I can easily see there > > needing to > > > > be some sort of > > > > rust bindings for ATF/kyua as one of the first libraries / crates that > > > > would test that aspect of > > > > the build system. That all would be up to the people writing the tests > > in > > > > rust, I'd imagine. > > > > > > > > While I could jot out the basics of this integration (so one could > > just add > > > > the rust > > > > tools to a subdir or subdirs, include the bsd.rust.mk or whatever and > > then > > > > it would build > > > > if rust is enabled, and would emit a warning it was skipped because > > rust > > > > was disabled). > > > > We'd find out if this is workable or not and iterate from there. But > > that > > > > would also require > > > > active participation from the rust advocates to make it a reality: I > > can > > > > put together the > > > > build infrastructure for the disabled case, but likely can't on my own > > do > > > > the rust enabled > > > > case. I'd be happy to work with someone to do that, but I'm not going > > to be > > > > able to do > > > > that myself: my need for rust is slight, my knowledge of rust is weak, > > etc. > > > > Working with > > > > someone (or ideally several someones), though it could become reality. > > So > > > > please contact > > > > me if you'd like to work on this. > > > > > > > > Warner > > > > > > One way to go could be moving programs rewritten with rust to ports. > > > There are some programs (not in rust, though) moved to ports, like rcs. > > > > I've already done this with a few, though I didn't delete the C > > versions from base. > > usr.bin/gstat => sysutils/gstat-rs > > tools/regression/fsx => devel/fsx > > > > So > % size `which gstat-rs` `which gstat` > text data bss dec hex filename > 2094442 176472 568 2271482 0x22a8fa /usr/local/sbin/gstat-rs > 19350 1180 41 20571 0x505b /usr/sbin/gstat > % file `which gstat-rs` `which gstat` > /usr/local/sbin/gstat-rs: ELF 64-bit LSB pie executable, ARM aarch64, > version 1 (FreeBSD), dynamically linked, interpreter /libexec/ld-elf.so.1, > FreeBSD-style, stripped > /usr/sbin/gstat: ELF 64-bit LSB pie executable, ARM aarch64, > version 1 (FreeBSD), dynamically linked, interpreter /libexec/ld-elf.so.1, > for FreeBSD 15.0 (1500008), FreeBSD-style, stripped > 8:36pm brazos:[3826]> ldd `which gstat-rs` `which gstat` > /usr/local/sbin/gstat-rs: > libgeom.so.5 => /lib/libgeom.so.5 (0x60fd38647000) > libthr.so.3 => /lib/libthr.so.3 (0x60fd38b57000) > libgcc_s.so.1 => /lib/libgcc_s.so.1 (0x60fd39af1000) > libc.so.7 => /lib/libc.so.7 (0x60fd3be6f000) > libbsdxml.so.4 => /lib/libbsdxml.so.4 (0x60fd3a009000) > libsbuf.so.6 => /lib/libsbuf.so.6 (0x60fd3a55e000) > /usr/sbin/gstat: > libdevstat.so.7 => /lib/libdevstat.so.7 (0x448867cd000) > libgeom.so.5 => /lib/libgeom.so.5 (0x4488710b000) > libedit.so.8 => /lib/libedit.so.8 (0x44887f8d000) > libtinfow.so.9 => /lib/libtinfow.so.9 (0x44888aab000) > libncursesw.so.9 => /lib/libncursesw.so.9 (0x44889c60000) > libc.so.7 => /lib/libc.so.7 (0x4488aaf4000) > libkvm.so.7 => /lib/libkvm.so.7 (0x44888f77000) > libbsdxml.so.4 => /lib/libbsdxml.so.4 (0x4488ba02000) > libsbuf.so.6 => /lib/libsbuf.so.6 (0x4488c68d000) > libelf.so.2 => /lib/libelf.so.2 (0x4488ca45000) > > So that looks scary, like rust is 100x larger binaries... But at runtime > it's about the same: > USER PID %CPU %MEM VSZ RSS TT STAT STARTED TIME COMMAND > imp 14735 0.0 0.0 14140 4828 0 S+ 20:38 0:00.04 gstat > imp 14766 1.3 0.0 15772 6256 0 S+ 20:39 0:00.02 gstat-rs > > So the runtime size is at least in the same ballpark (still larger, but not > crazy larger). More CPU too, > but that's just a polling artifact I think (other times gstat had some, and > gstat-rs didn't). > > Why is the rust binary so much larger? Are the rust runtime and > dependencies statically linked? Simple answer is yes. More complete answer is that nobody, practically speaking, writes a program in Rust + standard library. It is always several dozens of crates that are often indeed useful, and which bring up their own dependencies. All of that stuff is statically linked into the binary, remember that Rust does not have stable ABI. For some parts of the language, like async, you must use huge external dependencies, importing which into the base system is not practical (I do not mean a compiler, which seems to be already agreed not to). Also Rust-generated code seems to be fatter than corresponding C, not least because value-passing is much more common in Rust. Looking at disassembly the dominating theme are memory moves. From nobody Sun Jan 21 04:14:59 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4THg4L1lCnz58CpN for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 04:15:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asomers@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qk1-f174.google.com (mail-qk1-f174.google.com [209.85.222.174]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4THg4K69j5z4WKD; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 04:15:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asomers@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-qk1-f174.google.com with SMTP id af79cd13be357-78314e00350so192193085a.1; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 20:15:13 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1705810512; x=1706415312; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=L2w+Y5PG0jW4/tfVHuQOjPnqRy9+qz6J9I3/mG5Q/mo=; b=Vy6lACdoFavJdUmWQiynTlhwSmaTLflvv+hKUHAfC+SSCqzIEZvjsQhrf8Dc7L1NhG GCpIsLscqjWFSinVOQG4yg0sb8f24EsVsrID1WNYf4dzn6Vpabyk0vcCpa5MiN7r/gdn ac153FI8O358l3/LgXgFcR+7vErr9u6xfzxd9zjCQza6zn20IugS+qB4KBlR1G4cC6sU 7uACdEO/qb6NNeH6ktJbuGltEVwTzMgul3q+e3JxRZVtFKjUQOxgqzZ0sQXfIHpJc2r/ 3UctUY+Hrg+4F9pzAKskCZiENHNOjoJy9cZI9IjV66B/FXgQ9A/Uv6+HBNi4cFaFr2d5 ms1Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxUa3cb2bciem7O10tSF3WtaXcFYhYZu3doNzo9zGmB/Cp0cR8o Vmb0TY7z2qtNKFrXqEqYbwESJ+2qoydJ0jZRQoMUto151ISn3hcNCNVrB/SrV34emMY8DrNzlYO jRq73PdV1i9UO6kmpKmDY04JBu1AzQcn8 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHM6oE4zzr7zLmj8q/pf1jSgaeY092NL7eEoYXgmcvijuxX3BiOn0rcjof0ixkjomLe2K7REFWJVm2TegiADLI= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:6117:b0:783:3d1f:94e6 with SMTP id oq23-20020a05620a611700b007833d1f94e6mr2637174qkn.135.1705810511820; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 20:15:11 -0800 (PST) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1673801705774097@mail.yandex.ru> <20240121110611.af567b0ac3a8fd8593ffcb7f@dec.sakura.ne.jp> In-Reply-To: From: Alan Somers Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 21:14:59 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) To: Warner Losh Cc: Alan Somers , Tomoaki AOKI , Aleksandr Fedorov , FreeBSD Hackers , Scott Long , "Goran Meki??" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009c7c2c060f6cf5db" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4THg4K69j5z4WKD X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US] --0000000000009c7c2c060f6cf5db Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 8:44=E2=80=AFPM Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 7:20=E2=80=AFPM Alan Somers w= rote: > >> On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 7:06=E2=80=AFPM Tomoaki AOKI >> wrote: >> > >> > On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 15:31:23 -0700 >> > Warner Losh wrote: >> > >> > > On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 11:45=E2=80=AFAM Aleksandr Fedorov < >> wigneddoom@yandex.ru> >> > > wrote: >> > > >> > > > What about external dependencies? >> > > > >> > > > >> https://github.com/Axcient/freebsd-nfs-exporter/blob/master/Cargo.toml#L= 19 >> > > > >> https://github.com/asomers/gstat-rs/blob/master/gstat/src/main.rs#L20 >> > > > >> > > > Is there any plan for which crates we should take into the base >> system? >> > > > >> > > > We have had C++ in base for many years, but I don=E2=80=99t see an= y good >> libraries >> > > > for CLI, logging, JSON, etc. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> https://doc.rust-lang.org/rustc/platform-support.html#tier-1-with-host-t= ools >> > > > >> > > > Where is the support for Freebsd as a primary platform? ARM, RISC-= V, >> > > > Power? Should we rewrite devd? >> > > > >> > > > I think we need to start by providing official repositories (e.g >> > > > git.FreeBSD.org/rust.git or git.FreeBSD.org/go.git) >> > > > for different languages that include stable bindings to the system >> API: >> > > > - sysctl >> > > > - libgeom >> > > > - libifconfig >> > > > - netgraph >> > > > - jail >> > > > - etc. >> > > > >> > > > So that it=E2=80=99s not just some anonymous on crates.io that rep= resents >> these >> > > > bindings, but our community. >> > > > Officially, with support for a stable ABI for releases, security >> patches, >> > > > etc. >> > > > >> > > > After this, it will be possible to think about which components to >> include >> > > > in the base system. >> > > > >> > > > I would be glad to see a more modern language than C in the >> database, but >> > > > I=E2=80=99m afraid that it will be like with C++, >> > > > that we will get a couple of daemons and utilities and that=E2=80= =99s all. >> > > > >> > > >> > > These are all good questions that need good answers, though >> necessarily to >> > > get started. >> > > >> > > But the other question that occured to me after my last posting was >> "What >> > > about build integration?" >> > > How much of the rust automation do we take in vs how much do we driv= e >> from >> > > a future bsd.rust.mk. >> > > I can sketch out bsd.rust.mk (to pick an arbitrary name, we'd likely >> need >> > > one for what we traditionally >> > > think of as libraries (which may or may not map 1:1 onto crates: we >> could >> > > have c callable libraries >> > > written in rust in the future, for example) and one for binaries. >> > > Initially, though, if we go with the >> > > 'make rust tests possible' then we'd likely need the appropriate >> packages >> > > installed for whatever >> > > dependencies we'd have in the tests. This would give us a taste for >> what >> > > we'd need to do for >> > > base, I'd think. Once we had that notion, I can easily see there >> needing to >> > > be some sort of >> > > rust bindings for ATF/kyua as one of the first libraries / crates th= at >> > > would test that aspect of >> > > the build system. That all would be up to the people writing the >> tests in >> > > rust, I'd imagine. >> > > >> > > While I could jot out the basics of this integration (so one could >> just add >> > > the rust >> > > tools to a subdir or subdirs, include the bsd.rust.mk or whatever >> and then >> > > it would build >> > > if rust is enabled, and would emit a warning it was skipped because >> rust >> > > was disabled). >> > > We'd find out if this is workable or not and iterate from there. But >> that >> > > would also require >> > > active participation from the rust advocates to make it a reality: I >> can >> > > put together the >> > > build infrastructure for the disabled case, but likely can't on my >> own do >> > > the rust enabled >> > > case. I'd be happy to work with someone to do that, but I'm not goin= g >> to be >> > > able to do >> > > that myself: my need for rust is slight, my knowledge of rust is >> weak, etc. >> > > Working with >> > > someone (or ideally several someones), though it could become >> reality. So >> > > please contact >> > > me if you'd like to work on this. >> > > >> > > Warner >> > >> > One way to go could be moving programs rewritten with rust to ports. >> > There are some programs (not in rust, though) moved to ports, like rcs= . >> >> I've already done this with a few, though I didn't delete the C >> versions from base. >> usr.bin/gstat =3D> sysutils/gstat-rs >> tools/regression/fsx =3D> devel/fsx >> > > So > % size `which gstat-rs` `which gstat` > text data bss dec hex filename > 2094442 176472 568 2271482 0x22a8fa /usr/local/sbin/gstat-rs > 19350 1180 41 20571 0x505b /usr/sbin/gstat > % file `which gstat-rs` `which gstat` > /usr/local/sbin/gstat-rs: ELF 64-bit LSB pie executable, ARM aarch64, > version 1 (FreeBSD), dynamically linked, interpreter /libexec/ld-elf.so.1= , > FreeBSD-style, stripped > /usr/sbin/gstat: ELF 64-bit LSB pie executable, ARM aarch64, > version 1 (FreeBSD), dynamically linked, interpreter /libexec/ld-elf.so.1= , > for FreeBSD 15.0 (1500008), FreeBSD-style, stripped > 8:36pm brazos:[3826]> ldd `which gstat-rs` `which gstat` > /usr/local/sbin/gstat-rs: > libgeom.so.5 =3D> /lib/libgeom.so.5 (0x60fd38647000) > libthr.so.3 =3D> /lib/libthr.so.3 (0x60fd38b57000) > libgcc_s.so.1 =3D> /lib/libgcc_s.so.1 (0x60fd39af1000) > libc.so.7 =3D> /lib/libc.so.7 (0x60fd3be6f000) > libbsdxml.so.4 =3D> /lib/libbsdxml.so.4 (0x60fd3a009000) > libsbuf.so.6 =3D> /lib/libsbuf.so.6 (0x60fd3a55e000) > /usr/sbin/gstat: > libdevstat.so.7 =3D> /lib/libdevstat.so.7 (0x448867cd000) > libgeom.so.5 =3D> /lib/libgeom.so.5 (0x4488710b000) > libedit.so.8 =3D> /lib/libedit.so.8 (0x44887f8d000) > libtinfow.so.9 =3D> /lib/libtinfow.so.9 (0x44888aab000) > libncursesw.so.9 =3D> /lib/libncursesw.so.9 (0x44889c60000) > libc.so.7 =3D> /lib/libc.so.7 (0x4488aaf4000) > libkvm.so.7 =3D> /lib/libkvm.so.7 (0x44888f77000) > libbsdxml.so.4 =3D> /lib/libbsdxml.so.4 (0x4488ba02000) > libsbuf.so.6 =3D> /lib/libsbuf.so.6 (0x4488c68d000) > libelf.so.2 =3D> /lib/libelf.so.2 (0x4488ca45000) > > So that looks scary, like rust is 100x larger binaries... But at runtime > it's about the same: > USER PID %CPU %MEM VSZ RSS TT STAT STARTED TIME COMMAND > imp 14735 0.0 0.0 14140 4828 0 S+ 20:38 0:00.04 gstat > imp 14766 1.3 0.0 15772 6256 0 S+ 20:39 0:00.02 gstat-r= s > > So the runtime size is at least in the same ballpark (still larger, but > not crazy larger). More CPU too, > but that's just a polling artifact I think (other times gstat had some, > and gstat-rs didn't). > > Why is the rust binary so much larger? Are the rust runtime and > dependencies statically linked? > Yes, that's a large part of it. Rust libraries are usually statically linked (though they don't have to be). For example, in the output above, notice that gstat-rs does not link to ncurses. That's because the equivalent library is statically linked in instead. Also, rust programs by default include goodies like stack unwinding on panic, which takes extra code too. But that can be turned off if you really want to save space. -Alan > --0000000000009c7c2c060f6cf5db Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 8:44=E2=80=AFPM Warner = Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
=


=
On Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 7:20=E2=80=AFPM= Alan Somers <asomers@freebsd.org> wrote:
On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 7:06=E2=80=AFPM Tomoak= i AOKI <junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp> w= rote:
>
> On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 15:31:23 -0700
> Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 11:45=E2=80=AFAM Aleksandr Fedorov <wigneddoom@yandex.ru>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > What about external dependencies?
> > >
> > > https://github.com/Axcient/freebsd-nfs-exporter/blob/= master/Cargo.toml#L19
> > > https://github.com/asomers/gstat-rs/blob/master/gstat/src/= main.rs#L20
> > >
> > > Is there any plan for which crates we should take into the b= ase system?
> > >
> > > We have had C++ in base for many years, but I don=E2=80=99t = see any good libraries
> > > for CLI, logging, JSON, etc.
> > >
> > >
> > > https://doc.rust-lang.org/rustc/platform-support.ht= ml#tier-1-with-host-tools
> > >
> > > Where is the support for Freebsd as a primary platform? ARM,= RISC-V,
> > > Power? Should we rewrite devd?
> > >
> > > I think we need to start by providing official repositories = (e.g
> > > git.FreeBSD.org/rust.= git or git.FreeBSD.org/go.git)=
> > > for different languages that include stable bindings to the = system API:
> > > - sysctl
> > > - libgeom
> > > - libifconfig
> > > - netgraph
> > > - jail
> > > - etc.
> > >
> > > So that it=E2=80=99s not just some anonymous on crates.io that represents these
> > > bindings, but our community.
> > > Officially, with support for a stable ABI for releases, secu= rity patches,
> > > etc.
> > >
> > > After this, it will be possible to think about which compone= nts to include
> > > in the base system.
> > >
> > > I would be glad to see a more modern language than C in the = database, but
> > > I=E2=80=99m afraid that it will be like with C++,
> > > that we will get a couple of daemons and utilities and that= =E2=80=99s all.
> > >
> >
> > These are all good questions that need good answers, though neces= sarily to
> > get started.
> >
> > But the other question that occured to me after my last posting w= as "What
> > about build integration?"
> > How much of the rust automation do we take in vs how much do we d= rive from
> > a future bsd.rust.mk.
> > I can sketch out bsd.rust.mk (to pi= ck an arbitrary name, we'd likely need
> > one for what we traditionally
> > think of as libraries (which may or may not map 1:1 onto crates: = we could
> > have c callable libraries
> > written in rust in the future, for example) and one for binaries.=
> > Initially, though, if we go with the
> > 'make rust tests possible' then we'd likely need the = appropriate packages
> > installed for whatever
> > dependencies we'd have in the tests. This would give us a tas= te for what
> > we'd need to do for
> > base, I'd think. Once we had that notion, I can easily see th= ere needing to
> > be some sort of
> > rust bindings for ATF/kyua as one of the first libraries / crates= that
> > would test that aspect of
> > the build system. That all would be up to the people writing the = tests in
> > rust, I'd imagine.
> >
> > While I could jot out the basics of this integration (so one coul= d just add
> > the rust
> > tools to a subdir or subdirs, include the bsd.rust.mk or whatever and then
> > it would build
> > if rust is enabled, and would emit a warning it was skipped becau= se rust
> > was disabled).
> > We'd find out if this is workable or not and iterate from the= re. But that
> > would also require
> > active participation from the rust advocates to make it a reality= : I can
> > put together the
> > build infrastructure for the disabled case, but likely can't = on my own do
> > the rust enabled
> > case. I'd be happy to work with someone to do that, but I'= ;m not going to be
> > able to do
> > that myself: my need for rust is slight, my knowledge of rust is = weak, etc.
> > Working with
> > someone (or ideally several someones), though it could become rea= lity. So
> > please contact
> > me if you'd like to work on this.
> >
> > Warner
>
> One way to go could be moving programs rewritten with rust to ports. > There are some programs (not in rust, though) moved to ports, like rcs= .

I've already done this with a few, though I didn't delete the C
versions from base.
usr.bin/gstat =3D> sysutils/gstat-rs
tools/regression/fsx =3D> devel/fsx

So
% size `which gstat-rs` `which gstat`=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0text =C2=A0 =C2=A0 data =C2=A0 bss =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 dec =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0hex =C2=A0 filename
=C2=A0 2094442= =C2=A0 176472 =C2=A0 568 =C2=A0 2271482 =C2=A0 0x22a8fa =C2=A0 /usr/local/= sbin/gstat-rs
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 19350 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 1180 =C2=A0 =C2=A041 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 20571 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 0x505b =C2=A0 /usr/sbin/gstat
= % file `which gstat-rs` `which gstat`
/usr/local/sbin/gstat-rs: ELF 64-b= it LSB pie executable, ARM aarch64, version 1 (FreeBSD), dynamically linked= , interpreter /libexec/ld-elf.so.1, FreeBSD-style, stripped
/usr/sbin/gs= tat: =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ELF 64-bit LSB pie executable, ARM a= arch64, version 1 (FreeBSD), dynamically linked, interpreter /libexec/ld-el= f.so.1, for FreeBSD 15.0 (1500008), FreeBSD-style, stripped
8:36pm brazo= s:[3826]> ldd `which gstat-rs` `which gstat`
/usr/local/sbin/gstat-rs= :
libgeom.so.5 =3D> /lib/libgeom.so.5 (0x60fd38647000)
libthr.so= .3 =3D> /lib/libthr.so.3 (0x60fd38b57000)
libgcc_s.so.1 =3D> /lib= /libgcc_s.so.1 (0x60fd39af1000)
libc.so.7 =3D> /lib/libc.so.7 (0x60f= d3be6f000)
libbsdxml.so.4 =3D> /lib/libbsdxml.so.4 (0x60fd3a009000)<= br> libsbuf.so.6 =3D> /lib/libsbuf.so.6 (0x60fd3a55e000)
/usr/sbin/gs= tat:
libdevstat.so.7 =3D> /lib/libdevstat.so.7 (0x448867cd000)
l= ibgeom.so.5 =3D> /lib/libgeom.so.5 (0x4488710b000)
libedit.so.8 =3D&= gt; /lib/libedit.so.8 (0x44887f8d000)
libtinfow.so.9 =3D> /lib/libti= nfow.so.9 (0x44888aab000)
libncursesw.so.9 =3D> /lib/libncursesw.so.= 9 (0x44889c60000)
libc.so.7 =3D> /lib/libc.so.7 (0x4488aaf4000)
= libkvm.so.7 =3D> /lib/libkvm.so.7 (0x44888f77000)
libbsdxml.so.4 =3D= > /lib/libbsdxml.so.4 (0x4488ba02000)
libsbuf.so.6 =3D> /lib/libs= buf.so.6 (0x4488c68d000)
libelf.so.2 =3D> /lib/libelf.so.2 (0x4488ca= 45000)

So that looks scary, like rust is 100x larg= er binaries...=C2=A0 But at runtime it's about the same:
USER= =C2=A0 =C2=A0PID =C2=A0 %CPU %MEM =C2=A0 VSZ =C2=A0 RSS TT =C2=A0STAT STAR= TED =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 TIME COMMAND
imp =C2=A0 14735 =C2= =A0 =C2=A00.0 =C2=A00.0 14140 =C2=A04828 =C2=A00 =C2=A0S+ =C2=A0 20:38 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A00:00.04 gstat
imp =C2=A0 14766 =C2=A0 =C2= =A01.3 =C2=A00.0 15772 =C2=A06256 =C2=A00 =C2=A0S+ =C2=A0 20:39 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A00:00.02 gstat-rs

So the runtime s= ize is at least in the same ballpark (still larger, but not crazy larger). = More CPU too,
but that's just a polling artifact I think (oth= er times gstat had some, and gstat-rs didn't).

=
Why is the rust binary so much larger? Are the rust runtime and depend= encies statically linked?

Yes, that's a large part of it. Rust l= ibraries are usually statically linked (though they don't have to be). = For example, in the output above, notice that gstat-rs does not link to ncu= rses. That's because the equivalent library is statically linked in ins= tead. Also, rust programs by default include goodies like stack unwinding o= n panic, which takes extra code too. But that can be turned off if you real= ly want to save space.=C2=A0
-Alan
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Sun, 21 Jan 2024 04:34:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from tom.home (kib@localhost [127.0.0.1] (may be forged)) by kib.kiev.ua (8.17.1/8.17.1) with ESMTP id 40L4YQmS000596; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 06:34:30 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 kib.kiev.ua 40L4YQmS000596 Received: (from kostik@localhost) by tom.home (8.17.1/8.17.1/Submit) id 40L4YQTh000594; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 06:34:26 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) X-Authentication-Warning: tom.home: kostik set sender to kostikbel@gmail.com using -f Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2024 06:34:26 +0200 From: Konstantin Belousov To: Alan Somers Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) Message-ID: References: <1673801705774097@mail.yandex.ru> <20240121110611.af567b0ac3a8fd8593ffcb7f@dec.sakura.ne.jp> List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED,FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD,FREEMAIL_FROM, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=4.0.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0 (2022-12-14) on tom.home X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4THgVf22Vjz4Z8d X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US] On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 09:14:59PM -0700, Alan Somers wrote: > On Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 8:44 PM Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > > On Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 7:20 PM Alan Somers wrote: > > > >> On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 7:06 PM Tomoaki AOKI > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 15:31:23 -0700 > >> > Warner Losh wrote: > >> > > >> > > On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 11:45 AM Aleksandr Fedorov < > >> wigneddoom@yandex.ru> > >> > > wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > What about external dependencies? > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> https://github.com/Axcient/freebsd-nfs-exporter/blob/master/Cargo.toml#L19 > >> > > > > >> https://github.com/asomers/gstat-rs/blob/master/gstat/src/main.rs#L20 > >> > > > > >> > > > Is there any plan for which crates we should take into the base > >> system? > >> > > > > >> > > > We have had C++ in base for many years, but I don’t see any good > >> libraries > >> > > > for CLI, logging, JSON, etc. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> https://doc.rust-lang.org/rustc/platform-support.html#tier-1-with-host-tools > >> > > > > >> > > > Where is the support for Freebsd as a primary platform? ARM, RISC-V, > >> > > > Power? Should we rewrite devd? > >> > > > > >> > > > I think we need to start by providing official repositories (e.g > >> > > > git.FreeBSD.org/rust.git or git.FreeBSD.org/go.git) > >> > > > for different languages that include stable bindings to the system > >> API: > >> > > > - sysctl > >> > > > - libgeom > >> > > > - libifconfig > >> > > > - netgraph > >> > > > - jail > >> > > > - etc. > >> > > > > >> > > > So that it’s not just some anonymous on crates.io that represents > >> these > >> > > > bindings, but our community. > >> > > > Officially, with support for a stable ABI for releases, security > >> patches, > >> > > > etc. > >> > > > > >> > > > After this, it will be possible to think about which components to > >> include > >> > > > in the base system. > >> > > > > >> > > > I would be glad to see a more modern language than C in the > >> database, but > >> > > > I’m afraid that it will be like with C++, > >> > > > that we will get a couple of daemons and utilities and that’s all. > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > These are all good questions that need good answers, though > >> necessarily to > >> > > get started. > >> > > > >> > > But the other question that occured to me after my last posting was > >> "What > >> > > about build integration?" > >> > > How much of the rust automation do we take in vs how much do we drive > >> from > >> > > a future bsd.rust.mk. > >> > > I can sketch out bsd.rust.mk (to pick an arbitrary name, we'd likely > >> need > >> > > one for what we traditionally > >> > > think of as libraries (which may or may not map 1:1 onto crates: we > >> could > >> > > have c callable libraries > >> > > written in rust in the future, for example) and one for binaries. > >> > > Initially, though, if we go with the > >> > > 'make rust tests possible' then we'd likely need the appropriate > >> packages > >> > > installed for whatever > >> > > dependencies we'd have in the tests. This would give us a taste for > >> what > >> > > we'd need to do for > >> > > base, I'd think. Once we had that notion, I can easily see there > >> needing to > >> > > be some sort of > >> > > rust bindings for ATF/kyua as one of the first libraries / crates that > >> > > would test that aspect of > >> > > the build system. That all would be up to the people writing the > >> tests in > >> > > rust, I'd imagine. > >> > > > >> > > While I could jot out the basics of this integration (so one could > >> just add > >> > > the rust > >> > > tools to a subdir or subdirs, include the bsd.rust.mk or whatever > >> and then > >> > > it would build > >> > > if rust is enabled, and would emit a warning it was skipped because > >> rust > >> > > was disabled). > >> > > We'd find out if this is workable or not and iterate from there. But > >> that > >> > > would also require > >> > > active participation from the rust advocates to make it a reality: I > >> can > >> > > put together the > >> > > build infrastructure for the disabled case, but likely can't on my > >> own do > >> > > the rust enabled > >> > > case. I'd be happy to work with someone to do that, but I'm not going > >> to be > >> > > able to do > >> > > that myself: my need for rust is slight, my knowledge of rust is > >> weak, etc. > >> > > Working with > >> > > someone (or ideally several someones), though it could become > >> reality. So > >> > > please contact > >> > > me if you'd like to work on this. > >> > > > >> > > Warner > >> > > >> > One way to go could be moving programs rewritten with rust to ports. > >> > There are some programs (not in rust, though) moved to ports, like rcs. > >> > >> I've already done this with a few, though I didn't delete the C > >> versions from base. > >> usr.bin/gstat => sysutils/gstat-rs > >> tools/regression/fsx => devel/fsx > >> > > > > So > > % size `which gstat-rs` `which gstat` > > text data bss dec hex filename > > 2094442 176472 568 2271482 0x22a8fa /usr/local/sbin/gstat-rs > > 19350 1180 41 20571 0x505b /usr/sbin/gstat > > % file `which gstat-rs` `which gstat` > > /usr/local/sbin/gstat-rs: ELF 64-bit LSB pie executable, ARM aarch64, > > version 1 (FreeBSD), dynamically linked, interpreter /libexec/ld-elf.so.1, > > FreeBSD-style, stripped > > /usr/sbin/gstat: ELF 64-bit LSB pie executable, ARM aarch64, > > version 1 (FreeBSD), dynamically linked, interpreter /libexec/ld-elf.so.1, > > for FreeBSD 15.0 (1500008), FreeBSD-style, stripped > > 8:36pm brazos:[3826]> ldd `which gstat-rs` `which gstat` > > /usr/local/sbin/gstat-rs: > > libgeom.so.5 => /lib/libgeom.so.5 (0x60fd38647000) > > libthr.so.3 => /lib/libthr.so.3 (0x60fd38b57000) > > libgcc_s.so.1 => /lib/libgcc_s.so.1 (0x60fd39af1000) > > libc.so.7 => /lib/libc.so.7 (0x60fd3be6f000) > > libbsdxml.so.4 => /lib/libbsdxml.so.4 (0x60fd3a009000) > > libsbuf.so.6 => /lib/libsbuf.so.6 (0x60fd3a55e000) > > /usr/sbin/gstat: > > libdevstat.so.7 => /lib/libdevstat.so.7 (0x448867cd000) > > libgeom.so.5 => /lib/libgeom.so.5 (0x4488710b000) > > libedit.so.8 => /lib/libedit.so.8 (0x44887f8d000) > > libtinfow.so.9 => /lib/libtinfow.so.9 (0x44888aab000) > > libncursesw.so.9 => /lib/libncursesw.so.9 (0x44889c60000) > > libc.so.7 => /lib/libc.so.7 (0x4488aaf4000) > > libkvm.so.7 => /lib/libkvm.so.7 (0x44888f77000) > > libbsdxml.so.4 => /lib/libbsdxml.so.4 (0x4488ba02000) > > libsbuf.so.6 => /lib/libsbuf.so.6 (0x4488c68d000) > > libelf.so.2 => /lib/libelf.so.2 (0x4488ca45000) > > > > So that looks scary, like rust is 100x larger binaries... But at runtime > > it's about the same: > > USER PID %CPU %MEM VSZ RSS TT STAT STARTED TIME COMMAND > > imp 14735 0.0 0.0 14140 4828 0 S+ 20:38 0:00.04 gstat > > imp 14766 1.3 0.0 15772 6256 0 S+ 20:39 0:00.02 gstat-rs > > > > So the runtime size is at least in the same ballpark (still larger, but > > not crazy larger). More CPU too, > > but that's just a polling artifact I think (other times gstat had some, > > and gstat-rs didn't). > > > > Why is the rust binary so much larger? Are the rust runtime and > > dependencies statically linked? > > > > Yes, that's a large part of it. Rust libraries are usually statically > linked (though they don't have to be). For example, in the output above, > notice that gstat-rs does not link to ncurses. That's because the > equivalent library is statically linked in instead. By 'equivalent' do you mean crossterm crate? In other words, gstat-rs does not use [n]curses, am I right? Looking at the list of supported terminals, it sounds as if crossterm just hardcodes xterm control sequences. > Also, rust programs by > default include goodies like stack unwinding on panic, which takes extra > code too. But that can be turned off if you really want to save space. > -Alan > > > From nobody Sun Jan 21 04:44:16 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4THgk60xGYz58GLv for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 04:44:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ihor@antonovs.family) Received: from mail.antonovs.family (mail.antonovs.family [100.25.240.195]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mail.antonovs.family", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4THgk44t4dz4bTJ for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 04:44:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ihor@antonovs.family) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none ("invalid DKIM record") header.d=antonovs.family header.s=20200215 header.b=4+sx6Zkq; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=antonovs.family; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ihor@antonovs.family designates 100.25.240.195 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ihor@antonovs.family DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=antonovs.family; s=20200215; t=1705812258; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=dwevDTgAGavQGsO5ypDduU/D+TpIrV402XJ1dLgpIog=; b=4+sx6ZkqYPFFaUwckw6AbBDDHOyhRlh7MtXcQdOdc2E7ckr5R8/RNr1BmU6+7HMYVqZ4sF ouB1rLhCHqUs0CB4OvAv4MXHJNiI/MvyvjeHMSfstT2pQsNnPX39ox4MqZK9AcpwSWeBkO KMoLkgz/ZbxAUrjDtxmwRz5jBA2i06k= Received: by mail.antonovs.family (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id 0887769d (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256:NO) for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 04:44:18 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 20:44:16 -0800 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) Content-Language: en-US To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <1673801705774097@mail.yandex.ru> From: Ihor Antonov In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.30 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.97)[-0.972]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[antonovs.family,none]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.46)[0.458]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14618, ipnet:100.24.0.0/13, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_PERMFAIL(0.00)[antonovs.family:s=20200215]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[antonovs.family:~] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4THgk44t4dz4bTJ On 1/20/24 14:31, Warner Losh wrote: ... As someone who's been writing rust since 2018 both professionally and for personal projects I want to share my perspective on the question. I've come full circle from being a zealous rust fan-boi and now back to being a careful skeptic. There is a lot of ground I want to cover in one email so I excuse my style, I will be happy to elaborate and provide more data to back up my statements. Rust in base ------------ I think the consensus in this thread has already reached the right conclusion. This would be a absolutely counter-productive for the following reasons: - Rust needs its own special brand of LLVM. We all know how long it takes to build. - Rust compiler is not usable without Cargo, and Cargo is a fast-evolving project   that will need constant upkeep. - There is no way to bootstrap rust compiler other than by using previous   version of their compiler. Effectively you start from a blob from a third   party that you need tp trust. This can be a huge problem for people who care   about supply chain security. C/C++ compilers can be bootstrapped in a reasonable   amount of steps almost from nothing (google GNU Mes, stage0) - Rust and its entire ecosystem has severe dependency bloat problem. It is a   'left-pad' minefield. For those who want proof take a look at Cargo.toml files   of Cargo and rustc projects - they depend of half of the Internet. Getting   a closed-loop self-sufficient set of crates is almost impossible. Rust compiler   is not self-hosting and its dependency set has unbounded growth problems. - There could also be legal problems, as Rust Foundation is not a very adequate   or mature entity. Not so long ago they were trying to ban all "unapproved mentions   of the word Rust", waving their trademark left and right.   Search for "rust drama" on the internet  to find more details. Rust in General --------------- Rust's ecosystem is infected with async, aka. function coloring problem. It creates so much more pain that writing rust becomes nearly impossible. But hype-driven crowd has not yet realized it. Read more [2] Rust in Ports ------------- Something like mentioned `freebsd-rust` separate repository could make sense, with careful crate curation to maintain self-sustaining offline-build capable set. And avoid async rust at all costs. The question here - what is the "contract" here?  I dont think we are ready to force Rust on every FreeBSD src consumer. Alternatives ------------ I never thought I would ever say this - but C++20/23 is actually not that bad. C++20 modules are finally here and they actually solve header problems. Linux kernel developers were discussing C++ last week here [1] for use in Linux kernel. Lots of good reasons expressed. Replying to Warner's comment: > We have had C++ in base for many years, but I don’t see any good libraries > for CLI, logging, JSON, etc. Despite being full time FreeBSD user since 2017 I didn't know we needed those (and I am happy to contribute) I will say that this is not a C/C++ problem and Rust is definitely not a solution It is a FreeBSD problem and there are 2 aspects to it: 1. Social Aspect - we have a problem with attracting contributors:     1.1. A path to becoming a src contributor is vage and unreasonably long.     1.2. Unclear project directions(from a newcomers perspective)          Is FreeBSD a stagnation cult? Do we want to re-implement every linux feature?          Were does the Project go? Who is in charge? How decisions are made?     1.3 Unclear who needs what. It is the first time I hear Allan needs help with         writing code. (Allan - expect a dm to discuss details, I'm happy to help) 2. Technical Aspect     2.1. FreeBSD has tooling problem: bespoke BSD Makefiles are not making it easy          to start a new project or port new code. IMHO we need to import Ninja and Cmake          into base to make it easy write and _test_ more C/C++ code.          Phabricator forces everyone to have PHP. Bugzilla is a retro-vomit from 2000,          Jenkins is a devops nightmare from hell (speaking from a decade of personal experience)     2.1. FreeBSD has information fragmentation problem: Where was that piece of information?          A PR on github? Review on Phab? Maybe it is in the wiki?          Check the handbook to be sure. Oh, right, it was that patch attached to a bugzilla          comment. Go check Jenkins if the latest *post* commit run as succeeded... Summary ======== As much as I love the idea of Rust, I don't think it is going to solve our problems. Rust is hype tech at the moment and 2 years down the road compaines will start to realize how much maintenance of async rust code actually costs. I would very much like to see us simplify contribution track. On the technical side - migrate off of phabricator to gitea and import cmake and ninja. Kill bugzilla and build a decent pre-commit CI. --------- [1] https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/3465e0c6-f5b2-4c42-95eb-29361481f805@zytor.com/#t [2] https://blog.hugpoint.tech/avoid_async_rust.html Ihor Antonov -- Ihor Antonov From nobody Sun Jan 21 05:10:24 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4THhJB1BWKz58J5c for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 05:10:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Received: from www121.sakura.ne.jp (www121.sakura.ne.jp [153.125.133.21]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4THhJ936Hwz4fW7; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 05:10:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from kalamity.joker.local (123-1-91-49.area1b.commufa.jp [123.1.91.49]) (authenticated bits=0) by www121.sakura.ne.jp (8.17.1/8.17.1/[SAKURA-WEB]/20201212) with ESMTPA id 40L5AOAV039991; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 14:10:24 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2024 14:10:24 +0900 From: Tomoaki AOKI To: Alan Somers Cc: Warner Losh , Aleksandr Fedorov , FreeBSD Hackers , Scott Long , "Goran Meki??" Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) Message-Id: <20240121141024.e275343c0e7e3f86a50f4490@dec.sakura.ne.jp> In-Reply-To: References: <1673801705774097@mail.yandex.ru> <20240121110611.af567b0ac3a8fd8593ffcb7f@dec.sakura.ne.jp> Organization: Junchoon corps X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.33; amd64-portbld-freebsd14.0) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4THhJ936Hwz4fW7 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7684, ipnet:153.125.128.0/18, country:JP] On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 21:14:59 -0700 Alan Somers wrote: > On Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 8:44 PM Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > > On Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 7:20 PM Alan Somers wrote: > > > >> On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 7:06 PM Tomoaki AOKI > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 15:31:23 -0700 > >> > Warner Losh wrote: > >> > > >> > > On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 11:45 AM Aleksandr Fedorov < > >> wigneddoom@yandex.ru> > >> > > wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > What about external dependencies? > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> https://github.com/Axcient/freebsd-nfs-exporter/blob/master/Cargo.toml#L19 > >> > > > > >> https://github.com/asomers/gstat-rs/blob/master/gstat/src/main.rs#L20 > >> > > > > >> > > > Is there any plan for which crates we should take into the base > >> system? > >> > > > > >> > > > We have had C++ in base for many years, but I don’t see any good > >> libraries > >> > > > for CLI, logging, JSON, etc. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> https://doc.rust-lang.org/rustc/platform-support.html#tier-1-with-host-tools > >> > > > > >> > > > Where is the support for Freebsd as a primary platform? ARM, RISC-V, > >> > > > Power? Should we rewrite devd? > >> > > > > >> > > > I think we need to start by providing official repositories (e.g > >> > > > git.FreeBSD.org/rust.git or git.FreeBSD.org/go.git) > >> > > > for different languages that include stable bindings to the system > >> API: > >> > > > - sysctl > >> > > > - libgeom > >> > > > - libifconfig > >> > > > - netgraph > >> > > > - jail > >> > > > - etc. > >> > > > > >> > > > So that it’s not just some anonymous on crates.io that represents > >> these > >> > > > bindings, but our community. > >> > > > Officially, with support for a stable ABI for releases, security > >> patches, > >> > > > etc. > >> > > > > >> > > > After this, it will be possible to think about which components to > >> include > >> > > > in the base system. > >> > > > > >> > > > I would be glad to see a more modern language than C in the > >> database, but > >> > > > I’m afraid that it will be like with C++, > >> > > > that we will get a couple of daemons and utilities and that’s all. > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > These are all good questions that need good answers, though > >> necessarily to > >> > > get started. > >> > > > >> > > But the other question that occured to me after my last posting was > >> "What > >> > > about build integration?" > >> > > How much of the rust automation do we take in vs how much do we drive > >> from > >> > > a future bsd.rust.mk. > >> > > I can sketch out bsd.rust.mk (to pick an arbitrary name, we'd likely > >> need > >> > > one for what we traditionally > >> > > think of as libraries (which may or may not map 1:1 onto crates: we > >> could > >> > > have c callable libraries > >> > > written in rust in the future, for example) and one for binaries. > >> > > Initially, though, if we go with the > >> > > 'make rust tests possible' then we'd likely need the appropriate > >> packages > >> > > installed for whatever > >> > > dependencies we'd have in the tests. This would give us a taste for > >> what > >> > > we'd need to do for > >> > > base, I'd think. Once we had that notion, I can easily see there > >> needing to > >> > > be some sort of > >> > > rust bindings for ATF/kyua as one of the first libraries / crates that > >> > > would test that aspect of > >> > > the build system. That all would be up to the people writing the > >> tests in > >> > > rust, I'd imagine. > >> > > > >> > > While I could jot out the basics of this integration (so one could > >> just add > >> > > the rust > >> > > tools to a subdir or subdirs, include the bsd.rust.mk or whatever > >> and then > >> > > it would build > >> > > if rust is enabled, and would emit a warning it was skipped because > >> rust > >> > > was disabled). > >> > > We'd find out if this is workable or not and iterate from there. But > >> that > >> > > would also require > >> > > active participation from the rust advocates to make it a reality: I > >> can > >> > > put together the > >> > > build infrastructure for the disabled case, but likely can't on my > >> own do > >> > > the rust enabled > >> > > case. I'd be happy to work with someone to do that, but I'm not going > >> to be > >> > > able to do > >> > > that myself: my need for rust is slight, my knowledge of rust is > >> weak, etc. > >> > > Working with > >> > > someone (or ideally several someones), though it could become > >> reality. So > >> > > please contact > >> > > me if you'd like to work on this. > >> > > > >> > > Warner > >> > > >> > One way to go could be moving programs rewritten with rust to ports. > >> > There are some programs (not in rust, though) moved to ports, like rcs. > >> > >> I've already done this with a few, though I didn't delete the C > >> versions from base. > >> usr.bin/gstat => sysutils/gstat-rs > >> tools/regression/fsx => devel/fsx > >> > > > > So > > % size `which gstat-rs` `which gstat` > > text data bss dec hex filename > > 2094442 176472 568 2271482 0x22a8fa /usr/local/sbin/gstat-rs > > 19350 1180 41 20571 0x505b /usr/sbin/gstat > > % file `which gstat-rs` `which gstat` > > /usr/local/sbin/gstat-rs: ELF 64-bit LSB pie executable, ARM aarch64, > > version 1 (FreeBSD), dynamically linked, interpreter /libexec/ld-elf.so.1, > > FreeBSD-style, stripped > > /usr/sbin/gstat: ELF 64-bit LSB pie executable, ARM aarch64, > > version 1 (FreeBSD), dynamically linked, interpreter /libexec/ld-elf.so.1, > > for FreeBSD 15.0 (1500008), FreeBSD-style, stripped > > 8:36pm brazos:[3826]> ldd `which gstat-rs` `which gstat` > > /usr/local/sbin/gstat-rs: > > libgeom.so.5 => /lib/libgeom.so.5 (0x60fd38647000) > > libthr.so.3 => /lib/libthr.so.3 (0x60fd38b57000) > > libgcc_s.so.1 => /lib/libgcc_s.so.1 (0x60fd39af1000) > > libc.so.7 => /lib/libc.so.7 (0x60fd3be6f000) > > libbsdxml.so.4 => /lib/libbsdxml.so.4 (0x60fd3a009000) > > libsbuf.so.6 => /lib/libsbuf.so.6 (0x60fd3a55e000) > > /usr/sbin/gstat: > > libdevstat.so.7 => /lib/libdevstat.so.7 (0x448867cd000) > > libgeom.so.5 => /lib/libgeom.so.5 (0x4488710b000) > > libedit.so.8 => /lib/libedit.so.8 (0x44887f8d000) > > libtinfow.so.9 => /lib/libtinfow.so.9 (0x44888aab000) > > libncursesw.so.9 => /lib/libncursesw.so.9 (0x44889c60000) > > libc.so.7 => /lib/libc.so.7 (0x4488aaf4000) > > libkvm.so.7 => /lib/libkvm.so.7 (0x44888f77000) > > libbsdxml.so.4 => /lib/libbsdxml.so.4 (0x4488ba02000) > > libsbuf.so.6 => /lib/libsbuf.so.6 (0x4488c68d000) > > libelf.so.2 => /lib/libelf.so.2 (0x4488ca45000) > > > > So that looks scary, like rust is 100x larger binaries... But at runtime > > it's about the same: > > USER PID %CPU %MEM VSZ RSS TT STAT STARTED TIME COMMAND > > imp 14735 0.0 0.0 14140 4828 0 S+ 20:38 0:00.04 gstat > > imp 14766 1.3 0.0 15772 6256 0 S+ 20:39 0:00.02 gstat-rs > > > > So the runtime size is at least in the same ballpark (still larger, but > > not crazy larger). More CPU too, > > but that's just a polling artifact I think (other times gstat had some, > > and gstat-rs didn't). > > > > Why is the rust binary so much larger? Are the rust runtime and > > dependencies statically linked? > > > > Yes, that's a large part of it. Rust libraries are usually statically > linked (though they don't have to be). For example, in the output above, > notice that gstat-rs does not link to ncurses. That's because the > equivalent library is statically linked in instead. Also, rust programs by > default include goodies like stack unwinding on panic, which takes extra > code too. But that can be turned off if you really want to save space. > -Alan Because of these, I feel rust fits best for commercial DOS apps, not Unix-based OS'es. In DOS era, AFAIK, most programs installed required libraries at the same directory which its executable is installed, regarless exactly same libraries are installed in other directory by other softwares. This looks very similar as current rust default, except that libraries are statically linked in rust. But rust seems to have (non-default) option to create shared libraries by --crate-type=dylib and --crate-type=cdylib options [1]. Charlie Li pointed me this page before [2]. Without this kind of options, linking rust codes with C/C++ codes would be nonsense. (Whichever should have this kind of options, but rust ABI seems to be too unstalbe [changing rapidly] to implement it in C/C++ side.) I'd not yet dug in deep enough to conclude or write rust code myself, so just a thought for now, but I currently think we would better wait for rust ABI to be stabilized. Until then, rust codes in ports may increase and maintainers good at rust would increase, too. It would greatly help to investigate how to introduce rust codes in base. [1] https://doc.rust-lang.org/reference/linkage.html [2] https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-ports/2023-September/004546.html -- Tomoaki AOKI From nobody Sun Jan 21 07:32:58 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4THlTr6HFhz56qYV for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 07:34:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lain@fair.moe) Received: from mail.076.ne.jp (mail.076.ne.jp [45.76.218.69]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4THlTn6dlNz4rjQ for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 07:34:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lain@fair.moe) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=076.ne.jp header.s=dkim header.b=KkYvlkMp; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of lain@fair.moe has no SPF policy when checking 45.76.218.69) smtp.mailfrom=lain@fair.moe Received: from mail.076.ne.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.076.ne.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4THlTc72CQzW42R for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 16:33:56 +0900 (JST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=076.ne.jp; h= user-agent:in-reply-to:content-disposition:content-type :mime-version:references:message-id:subject:to:from:date; s= dkim; t=1705822435; x=1708414436; bh=QRASqGoGPLPOeE7+Ian7bmjtiWR 8o5yyyxGWNMYxnNg=; b=KkYvlkMpubMV/GjvpwOFONccdSTW4R4HuR6R1Iaz/CP VT+XGBvMVQTIzzOnpzQI2N4m5+R2N6SbTkXgV0Q6M+ZEgrVmKOEM1hFx5UWestxA POXqjB1FnacJnP7OrgQQb+32PNZxVWea7L5V5OdlBheM+TgSiW/hflup1tyvY+pC lFun4KkhdHKqtDOxdOF/wbu3BR0/d8Kxh9IqG91H55Ke02Q11eWsHb/ali5jkukw 0o97sYALXaZPPnSfUrTFCD+IAg5zukwkDgKHkWXUCNGCbRvDqsQ/s02YA6IeEfEf PPbjxDSPc3pdbDLNn74t+t2TDfy5dHmDB23vIDYjiCg== X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at guest.guest Received: from mail.076.ne.jp ([127.0.0.1]) by mail.076.ne.jp (mail.076.ne.jp [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id nySd7lXfowtF for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 16:33:55 +0900 (JST) Received: from mail.fair.moe (ip1.193.076.moe [219.117.254.193]) by mail.076.ne.jp (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4THlTb6tqPzW3wr for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 16:33:55 +0900 (JST) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2024 16:32:58 +0900 From: "lain." To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) Message-ID: <5as7lcxskqe6rug25i6jlwtinfg5hrt2kbeo3t3lp5on33fkbv@opjtc4eyztl3> X-Location: =?utf-8?B?IkVhcnRoL+WcsOeQgyI=?= X-Operating-System: "GNU/Linux" References: <1673801705774097@mail.yandex.ru> List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="bnx6yanxghufx6kl" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: NeoMutt/20231221 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.90 / 15.00]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[076.ne.jp:s=dkim]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[fair.moe]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:20473, ipnet:45.76.192.0/19, country:US]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[076.ne.jp:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4THlTn6dlNz4rjQ --bnx6yanxghufx6kl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So just like Linux, FreeBSD is going to put the Rust compiler into the system? Just to put my own perspective into the mix, the same opinion I had for Linux, and so many other projects: why Rust? Just like Java and Microsoft Java (and by that I mean C#) in the 2000s, Javascript and Python in the 2010s, and C++ in the 1990s, it looks like Rust is the new fad language in the 2020s that will become irrelevent somewhere in the 2030s, and there will be calls to rewrite legacy Rust programs to whatever is the hip language in the 2030s until that goes out of fashion by the 2040s. My bet on what the 2030s hip language will be is probably Zig, and 2040s would be Jai or Carbon, considering the pattern so far. One argument I see a lot is to make stuff ready for the next generations of programmers to take over as the older programmers retire, but as a younger C developer, I can't see how C is harder than the language of the decade. On the contrary, I find it a lot easier to code in C, because as long as you keep it simple (the hardest part for most programmers), all you need is a text editor and a compiler, and you learn a lot about the hardware you're working with along the way. With Rust, the compiler stops you from destroying the memory, but will never teach you how you can avoid that, simply because there's no incentive in learning that. In the short term this might be beneficial, but in the long term this can be catastrophic, as the amount of people who understand hardware declines, so does innovation, productivity, and even the ability to maintain already existing software. Of course FreeBSD is not my project, and the FreeBSD devs ultimately decide its direction, but nobody has historically listened to me until it was already way too late. I just wanted to provide my input on the whole "rewrite programs that work perfectly fine in Rust" mentality that has spun up in recent years, which already affected compile times spectacularly in bad ways. --=20 lain. Did you know that? 90% of all emails sent on a daily basis are being sent in plain text, and i= t's super easy to intercept emails as they flow over the internet? Never send passwords, tokens, personal information, or other volunerable in= formation without proper PGP encryption! If you're writing your emails unencrypted, please consider sending PGP encr= ypted emails for security reasons. You can find my PGP public key at: https://fair.moe/lain.asc Every good email client is able to send encrypted emails. If yours can't, then you should consider switching to a secure email client= , because yours just sucks. My recommendations are Claws Mail or NeoMutt. For instructions on how to encrypt your emails: https://unixsheikh.com/tutorials/gnupg-tutorial.html --bnx6yanxghufx6kl Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQGzBAEBCAAdFiEEozVhUpXECiNYIKIXtWNzC1Y29b0FAmWsyKcACgkQtWNzC1Y2 9b20ewwAk4db0OrhHF238OkwrqRkpc9CiRDKnHpjNYfp78HqJlmctjcPXn7+QFLL 0mE1C2BkLLxm1TJhiBB1Lti9b1RDgJhNOoiKyE10X2rD2e798Hftnt9IzeKMI0oL J0iDwYQVDqHOFVJIZ6moDrBbHauDErJ6+OoVPXO5k1reLHqwNcMBxSbAgDqmhI5l D+wv6zpaRpzW5W8XqtjOhYp9cJo6UUJyoMd8yCWxwog95BkTcPao9ppV/5yhSUXi dvzzblx/V60sq00bmtauVdw/j4VAJ1H5L3KAXe26rJAhCmlwGIpfaBcaUDb7brH3 UYyUe0NdbvoKN03StLs6Cs0uBy21u9mVArcPicWrEOHhnEPXmWQJLkInXVbVX0JD zv+G/tVhznSSi69m9ClppWapgRzt2NdHCmM/11YAPek958Ypi2yWvb/LQ319enX7 Evr3Ctg1UIV6rrsymv2RjMWsI1/vP0FfgD6qpaFmz5145pc3jeJ/0vqrme28Huiy hiIHatYL =JEl9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --bnx6yanxghufx6kl-- From nobody Sun Jan 21 07:38:56 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4THlbT3hlgz56rBx for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 07:39:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from robert@rrbrussell.com) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4THlbS3Zd7z4t0n for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 07:39:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from robert@rrbrussell.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=rrbrussell.com header.s=fm2 header.b=RjfSrXI8; dkim=pass header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b="t 4Z+z5D"; dmarc=pass (policy=quarantine) header.from=rrbrussell.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of robert@rrbrussell.com designates 66.111.4.29 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=robert@rrbrussell.com Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.47]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 167B85C00F8 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 02:39:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 21 Jan 2024 02:39:00 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rrbrussell.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type:date :date:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:subject:subject:to:to; s=fm2; t=1705822740; x=1705909140; bh=ceEXBjomqo1jCVg6kknsORf+42RCOtFHrMOse8Em230=; b= RjfSrXI8OMHyt8JtXUF95f2IFw5M+9JHTKOeDddHuwJgWKIzjZmIiTTQdZiDW9Z7 ducPBOXCqqxSl6GaTpkicEpT5cBZzgI2RX/XKVZgdTibXLEl9dMq/cWcZXucFRLq gmYYawPC75sVe4e/Yy+5qFB1Fz2RrS4uQxgU3dA3GOKf1udpDT1mpO2PDAjMu6IG ygTS/I0gUw+sVPFIFpRjo9jsXVceGxgBrwqJ5MfCH1lOo2AMfyb3V3GyWa0HJ3Jt 92Cn0yqxFxFAsI1zb6qTcSoeSGz/eYDZ4maLd8fZKab+dHisXLaopShjHr/UgB2g xbb4Iq9M6LWa6GsQIkafeg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :content-type:date:date:feedback-id:feedback-id:from:from :in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :reply-to:subject:subject:to:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy :x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; t=1705822740; x= 1705909140; bh=ceEXBjomqo1jCVg6kknsORf+42RCOtFHrMOse8Em230=; b=t 4Z+z5DyJbf3k86J1P2MH+n+0GrOwMMgxcEPtzWY9vGbkjebpD/j6nNqk/Jovfaab evRSDkWjO90LFs0aWgyAOWGGx0Wbzw/c+1pwaeX4eQn5hEGoIAirR9AgFtuTVXLG +Hpm9yZ80p2FiZQ1of0bqFEsGeqtd7za9rrCBvdNKhxdfZCRFg9d6gzNMGWGQ5iK LrLXI68lRsWvuqQHrCOUSM+dQH7LX8dTFlz2yi7WibrnrUCqK5LZco2SvkrqffPb 9LhyGPaau2SBKQFyj0A1CegvDjHv1JDtZBySjlZqV0A4m75dtTCmS8hW3Wmvhwua Jd/J6BsK2FNrwc5Fpr7Wg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvkedrvdekfedguddtlecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepfffhvffukfgjfhfogggtgfesth hqredtredtjeenucfhrhhomhepfdftohgsvghrthcutfdrucftuhhsshgvlhhlfdcuoehr ohgsvghrthesrhhrsghruhhsshgvlhhlrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeefke duvdeftdfftdfhffegleelfedvjefggeelhefhuddtleeftdffgeejveevudenucffohhm rghinhepghhithhhuhgsrdgtohhmpdhmrghinhdrrhhspdhruhhsthdqlhgrnhhgrdhorh hgpdhfrhgvvggsshgurdhorhhgpdhruhhsthdrmhhkpdhfvgguohhrrghprhhojhgvtght rdhorhhgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomh eprhhosggvrhhtsehrrhgsrhhushhsvghllhdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: ie421460a:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 02:38:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2024 01:38:56 -0600 From: "Robert R. Russell" To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) Message-ID: <20240121013856.77ad3767@venus.private.rrbrussell.com> In-Reply-To: <20240121141024.e275343c0e7e3f86a50f4490@dec.sakura.ne.jp> References: <1673801705774097@mail.yandex.ru> <20240121110611.af567b0ac3a8fd8593ffcb7f@dec.sakura.ne.jp> <20240121141024.e275343c0e7e3f86a50f4490@dec.sakura.ne.jp> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.19.1 (GTK+ 2.24.33; amd64-portbld-freebsd14.0) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.50 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rrbrussell.com,quarantine]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_EXCELLENT(-0.40)[66.111.4.29:from]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rrbrussell.com:s=fm2,messagingengine.com:s=fm3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:66.111.4.29]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[66.111.4.29:from]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rrbrussell.com:+,messagingengine.com:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:19151, ipnet:66.111.4.0/24, country:US]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[robert]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROMTLD(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[messagingengine.com:dkim] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4THlbS3Zd7z4t0n On Sun, 21 Jan 2024 14:10:24 +0900 Tomoaki AOKI wrote: > On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 21:14:59 -0700 > Alan Somers wrote: >=20 > > On Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 8:44=E2=80=AFPM Warner Losh wrot= e: > > =20 > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 7:20=E2=80=AFPM Alan Somers > > > wrote:=20 > > >> On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 7:06=E2=80=AFPM Tomoaki AOKI > > >> wrote: =20 > > >> > > > >> > On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 15:31:23 -0700 > > >> > Warner Losh wrote: > > >> > =20 > > >> > > On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 11:45=E2=80=AFAM Aleksandr Fedorov < =20 > > >> wigneddoom@yandex.ru> =20 > > >> > > wrote: > > >> > > =20 > > >> > > > What about external dependencies? > > >> > > > > > >> > > > =20 > > >> https://github.com/Axcient/freebsd-nfs-exporter/blob/master/Cargo.to= ml#L19 > > >> =20 > > >> > > > =20 > > >> https://github.com/asomers/gstat-rs/blob/master/gstat/src/main.rs#L20 > > >> =20 > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Is there any plan for which crates we should take into the > > >> > > > base =20 > > >> system? =20 > > >> > > > > > >> > > > We have had C++ in base for many years, but I don=E2=80=99t see > > >> > > > any good =20 > > >> libraries =20 > > >> > > > for CLI, logging, JSON, etc. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > =20 > > >> https://doc.rust-lang.org/rustc/platform-support.html#tier-1-with-ho= st-tools > > >> =20 > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Where is the support for Freebsd as a primary platform? > > >> > > > ARM, RISC-V, Power? Should we rewrite devd? > > >> > > > > > >> > > > I think we need to start by providing official > > >> > > > repositories (e.g git.FreeBSD.org/rust.git or > > >> > > > git.FreeBSD.org/go.git) for different languages that > > >> > > > include stable bindings to the system =20 > > >> API: =20 > > >> > > > - sysctl > > >> > > > - libgeom > > >> > > > - libifconfig > > >> > > > - netgraph > > >> > > > - jail > > >> > > > - etc. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > So that it=E2=80=99s not just some anonymous on crates.io that > > >> > > > represents =20 > > >> these =20 > > >> > > > bindings, but our community. > > >> > > > Officially, with support for a stable ABI for releases, > > >> > > > security =20 > > >> patches, =20 > > >> > > > etc. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > After this, it will be possible to think about which > > >> > > > components to =20 > > >> include =20 > > >> > > > in the base system. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > I would be glad to see a more modern language than C in > > >> > > > the =20 > > >> database, but =20 > > >> > > > I=E2=80=99m afraid that it will be like with C++, > > >> > > > that we will get a couple of daemons and utilities and > > >> > > > that=E2=80=99s all.=20 > > >> > > > > >> > > These are all good questions that need good answers, though =20 > > >> necessarily to =20 > > >> > > get started. > > >> > > > > >> > > But the other question that occured to me after my last > > >> > > posting was =20 > > >> "What =20 > > >> > > about build integration?" > > >> > > How much of the rust automation do we take in vs how much do > > >> > > we drive =20 > > >> from =20 > > >> > > a future bsd.rust.mk. > > >> > > I can sketch out bsd.rust.mk (to pick an arbitrary name, > > >> > > we'd likely =20 > > >> need =20 > > >> > > one for what we traditionally > > >> > > think of as libraries (which may or may not map 1:1 onto > > >> > > crates: we =20 > > >> could =20 > > >> > > have c callable libraries > > >> > > written in rust in the future, for example) and one for > > >> > > binaries. Initially, though, if we go with the > > >> > > 'make rust tests possible' then we'd likely need the > > >> > > appropriate =20 > > >> packages =20 > > >> > > installed for whatever > > >> > > dependencies we'd have in the tests. This would give us a > > >> > > taste for =20 > > >> what =20 > > >> > > we'd need to do for > > >> > > base, I'd think. Once we had that notion, I can easily see > > >> > > there =20 > > >> needing to =20 > > >> > > be some sort of > > >> > > rust bindings for ATF/kyua as one of the first libraries / > > >> > > crates that would test that aspect of > > >> > > the build system. That all would be up to the people writing > > >> > > the =20 > > >> tests in =20 > > >> > > rust, I'd imagine. > > >> > > > > >> > > While I could jot out the basics of this integration (so one > > >> > > could =20 > > >> just add =20 > > >> > > the rust > > >> > > tools to a subdir or subdirs, include the bsd.rust.mk or > > >> > > whatever =20 > > >> and then =20 > > >> > > it would build > > >> > > if rust is enabled, and would emit a warning it was skipped > > >> > > because =20 > > >> rust =20 > > >> > > was disabled). > > >> > > We'd find out if this is workable or not and iterate from > > >> > > there. But =20 > > >> that =20 > > >> > > would also require > > >> > > active participation from the rust advocates to make it a > > >> > > reality: I =20 > > >> can =20 > > >> > > put together the > > >> > > build infrastructure for the disabled case, but likely can't > > >> > > on my =20 > > >> own do =20 > > >> > > the rust enabled > > >> > > case. I'd be happy to work with someone to do that, but I'm > > >> > > not going =20 > > >> to be =20 > > >> > > able to do > > >> > > that myself: my need for rust is slight, my knowledge of > > >> > > rust is =20 > > >> weak, etc. =20 > > >> > > Working with > > >> > > someone (or ideally several someones), though it could > > >> > > become =20 > > >> reality. So =20 > > >> > > please contact > > >> > > me if you'd like to work on this. > > >> > > > > >> > > Warner =20 > > >> > > > >> > One way to go could be moving programs rewritten with rust to > > >> > ports. There are some programs (not in rust, though) moved to > > >> > ports, like rcs. =20 > > >> > > >> I've already done this with a few, though I didn't delete the C > > >> versions from base. > > >> usr.bin/gstat =3D> sysutils/gstat-rs > > >> tools/regression/fsx =3D> devel/fsx > > >> =20 > > > > > > So > > > % size `which gstat-rs` `which gstat` > > > text data bss dec hex filename > > > 2094442 176472 568 2271482 0x22a8fa > > > /usr/local/sbin/gstat-rs 19350 1180 41 20571 > > > 0x505b /usr/sbin/gstat % file `which gstat-rs` `which gstat` > > > /usr/local/sbin/gstat-rs: ELF 64-bit LSB pie executable, ARM > > > aarch64, version 1 (FreeBSD), dynamically linked, interpreter > > > /libexec/ld-elf.so.1, FreeBSD-style, stripped > > > /usr/sbin/gstat: ELF 64-bit LSB pie executable, ARM > > > aarch64, version 1 (FreeBSD), dynamically linked, interpreter > > > /libexec/ld-elf.so.1, for FreeBSD 15.0 (1500008), FreeBSD-style, > > > stripped 8:36pm brazos:[3826]> ldd `which gstat-rs` `which gstat` > > > /usr/local/sbin/gstat-rs: > > > libgeom.so.5 =3D> /lib/libgeom.so.5 (0x60fd38647000) > > > libthr.so.3 =3D> /lib/libthr.so.3 (0x60fd38b57000) > > > libgcc_s.so.1 =3D> /lib/libgcc_s.so.1 (0x60fd39af1000) > > > libc.so.7 =3D> /lib/libc.so.7 (0x60fd3be6f000) > > > libbsdxml.so.4 =3D> /lib/libbsdxml.so.4 (0x60fd3a009000) > > > libsbuf.so.6 =3D> /lib/libsbuf.so.6 (0x60fd3a55e000) > > > /usr/sbin/gstat: > > > libdevstat.so.7 =3D> /lib/libdevstat.so.7 (0x448867cd000) > > > libgeom.so.5 =3D> /lib/libgeom.so.5 (0x4488710b000) > > > libedit.so.8 =3D> /lib/libedit.so.8 (0x44887f8d000) > > > libtinfow.so.9 =3D> /lib/libtinfow.so.9 (0x44888aab000) > > > libncursesw.so.9 =3D> /lib/libncursesw.so.9 (0x44889c60000) > > > libc.so.7 =3D> /lib/libc.so.7 (0x4488aaf4000) > > > libkvm.so.7 =3D> /lib/libkvm.so.7 (0x44888f77000) > > > libbsdxml.so.4 =3D> /lib/libbsdxml.so.4 (0x4488ba02000) > > > libsbuf.so.6 =3D> /lib/libsbuf.so.6 (0x4488c68d000) > > > libelf.so.2 =3D> /lib/libelf.so.2 (0x4488ca45000) > > > > > > So that looks scary, like rust is 100x larger binaries... But at > > > runtime it's about the same: > > > USER PID %CPU %MEM VSZ RSS TT STAT STARTED TIME > > > COMMAND imp 14735 0.0 0.0 14140 4828 0 S+ 20:38 > > > 0:00.04 gstat imp 14766 1.3 0.0 15772 6256 0 S+ 20:39 > > > 0:00.02 gstat-rs > > > > > > So the runtime size is at least in the same ballpark (still > > > larger, but not crazy larger). More CPU too, > > > but that's just a polling artifact I think (other times gstat had > > > some, and gstat-rs didn't). > > > > > > Why is the rust binary so much larger? Are the rust runtime and > > > dependencies statically linked? > > > =20 > >=20 > > Yes, that's a large part of it. Rust libraries are usually > > statically linked (though they don't have to be). For example, in > > the output above, notice that gstat-rs does not link to ncurses. > > That's because the equivalent library is statically linked in > > instead. Also, rust programs by default include goodies like stack > > unwinding on panic, which takes extra code too. But that can be > > turned off if you really want to save space. -Alan =20 >=20 > Because of these, I feel rust fits best for commercial DOS apps, not > Unix-based OS'es. In DOS era, AFAIK, most programs installed required > libraries at the same directory which its executable is installed, > regarless exactly same libraries are installed in other directory by > other softwares. This looks very similar as current rust default, > except that libraries are statically linked in rust. >=20 > But rust seems to have (non-default) option to create shared libraries > by --crate-type=3Ddylib and --crate-type=3Dcdylib options [1]. >=20 > Charlie Li pointed me this page before [2]. >=20 > Without this kind of options, linking rust codes with C/C++ codes > would be nonsense. (Whichever should have this kind of options, but > rust ABI seems to be too unstalbe [changing rapidly] to implement it > in C/C++ side.) >=20 > I'd not yet dug in deep enough to conclude or write rust code myself, > so just a thought for now, but I currently think we would better wait > for rust ABI to be stabilized. Until then, rust codes in ports may > increase and maintainers good at rust would increase, too. > It would greatly help to investigate how to introduce rust codes in > base. >=20 > [1] https://doc.rust-lang.org/reference/linkage.html >=20 > [2] > https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-ports/2023-September/004546.ht= ml >=20 I honestly don't expect many new or current languages to get their own dedicated FFI/ABIs in the future. Especially, if they don't want a full language specific runtime involved. Enforcing a requirement of must export to the C ABI for any libraries going into the base system is very reasonable. On the other side of things restricting the dependency list to packaged stuff is also a good idea. Cargo already includes an option for enforcing the use of a local mirror as its package source.[1] Fedora uses this to guarantee they can build any rust code they package repeatably.[2] [1] https://doc.rust-lang.org/cargo/reference/source-replacement.html [2] https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/packaging-guidelines/Rust/ From nobody Sun Jan 21 07:51:32 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4THlt76xPZz56ryy for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 07:51:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4THlt72fsDz4vFf for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 07:51:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.55.3]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C057689281; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 07:51:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPS id 40L7pYB5011189 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 21 Jan 2024 07:51:34 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: (from phk@localhost) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.17.1/8.16.1/Submit) id 40L7pWEF011188; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 07:51:32 GMT (envelope-from phk) Message-Id: <202401210751.40L7pWEF011188@critter.freebsd.dk> To: Ihor Antonov cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) In-reply-to: From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" References: <1673801705774097@mail.yandex.ru> List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <11186.1705823492.1@critter.freebsd.dk> Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2024 07:51:32 +0000 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4THlt72fsDz4vFf X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:1835, ipnet:130.225.0.0/16, country:EU] -------- Ihor Antonov writes: > As much as I love the idea of Rust, I don't think it is going to solve > our problems. The tools are /never/ the real problem. I will readily agree that the ISO-C people have done more to hurt the C language, and less to improve it, than anybody else, and that we need to deal with their continued refusal to come into the 1990'ies. But after I read this entire thread, the "pro" argument for Rust seems boil down to just "all the cool kids do it". That exact same argument was used for "Perl in base" and "Java in base" previously, and if we hadn't dodged those bullets, we wouldn't be here today. The sprawling and loosely connected ports collection has several strata of "all the cool kids do it" languages, and it seems to be a much better "organism" for dealing with their eventual obsolescence, than our tightly integrated src collection. I will also "second" the comment about C++ getting to be a really good language, in particular if you play it like a violin: Just because you /paid/ for the entire bow, doesn't mean you have to /play/ the entire bow. So rather than jump onto this or some other hypewagon-of-the-year, only to regret it some years later and having to repay the technical debt with interest to get it out of the tree again, I propose that we quietly and gradually look more and more to C++ for our "advanced needs". I also propose, that next time somebody advocates for importing some "all the cool kids are doing it language" or other, we refuse to even look at their proposal, until they have proven their skill in, and dedication to, the language, by faithfully reimplementing cvsup in it, and documented how and why it is a better language for that, than Modula-3 was. Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From nobody Sun Jan 21 10:24:21 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4THqMr25xxz5786Z for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 10:29:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-hackers@phoe.frmug.org) Received: from frmug.org (enterprise.frmug.org [213.36.253.97]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4THqMq75WFz4CWm for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 10:29:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-hackers@phoe.frmug.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by frmug.org (Postfix, from userid 66) id D57FA12B96A; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 11:29:03 +0100 (CET) Received: by memo2.memo.frmug.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 03E7317984; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 11:24:21 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2024 11:24:21 +0100 From: Bertrand Petit To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) Message-ID: <20240121102421.GE14773@memo2.memo.frmug.org> References: <1673801705774097@mail.yandex.ru> <202401210751.40L7pWEF011188@critter.freebsd.dk> List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <202401210751.40L7pWEF011188@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.1 (2019-06-15) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4THqMq75WFz4CWm X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:12322, ipnet:213.36.0.0/16, country:FR] On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 07:51:32AM +0000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > I also propose, that next time somebody advocates for importing > some "all the cool kids are doing it language" or other, we refuse > to even look at their proposal, until they have proven their skill > in, and dedication to, the language, by faithfully reimplementing > cvsup in it, and documented how and why it is a better language for > that, than Modula-3 was. That is probably quite tough a measure but I understand and like your point. I also would also love to read the kool kids explain why the blunt assertion that " can't be implemented unless written in rust" is true as this seems to be contrary to all I know about computer science. (They probably never heard of haskell.) That asside, as much as I would like to see erlang and zig in base (yes, I like type systems), I would never advocate for them to be considered. I find these languages as well as rust so different in their environments, runtime and ecosystems, that their integration would require a so heavy shoehorning that it would probably result in a value less than the sum of them all. One of the strong values of FreeBSD is its stability. For fun I recently booted a 4BSD-something on a VAX emulator and immediately felt at ease, because of this stability. I perceive rust, despite some of its technical merits, as unable to provide that kind of stability. This language is a fast and (still) unstable moving target, so fast that once integrated it will immediately be obsolete on release. The integrated version would probably only be usable to compile base, countless other packaged versions would be required to compile ports---I'm also thinking about llvm here. That is bound to be a maintenance nightmare, for the FreeBSD teams and for the users alike. After reading the pros and cons posted on the mailing list, merging them with my own experience, I think rust should be avoided at all costs from being integrated into base, no part of base should ever be written in rust. However, if rust needs something for a proper usage from ports such as kernel interfaces, linking facilities, etc., we should provide it from base. -- %!PS -- Bertrand Petit /D{def}def/E{exch}D/G{get}D/I{2 div}D/U{dup}D/L{roll}D/Y{setgray}D/N{newpath}D /O{N 0 0 moveto}D/P{pop}D/T{translate}D currentpagedevice/PageSize G U 0 G/w E D 1 G /h E D w I h I T 0 Y 1 setlinewidth 0 1 2 { P 120 rotate 2 4 w U mul h U mul add sqrt I 50 add {N 50 0 3 2 L 0 360 arc stroke}for}for/s{O true charpath pathbbox exch 4 -1 L E sub I 3 1 L sub I} D /l(bp)D 0.94 Y /Helvetica findfont 22 scalefont setfont l s P(x)s exch P T O l show showpage From nobody Sun Jan 21 15:02:04 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4THxQv3dWSz57c8t for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 15:02:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from george+freebsd@m5p.com) Received: from mailhost.m5p.com (mailhost.m5p.com [74.104.188.4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "m5p.com", Issuer "R3" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4THxQs5MBTz4gnl for ; 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Sun, 21 Jan 2024 08:05:04 -0800 (PST) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1673801705774097@mail.yandex.ru> <202401210751.40L7pWEF011188@critter.freebsd.dk> <40bc1694-ee00-431b-866e-396e9d5c07a2@m5p.com> In-Reply-To: <40bc1694-ee00-431b-866e-396e9d5c07a2@m5p.com> From: Alan Somers Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2024 09:04:52 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) To: George Mitchell Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.90 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[asomers@freebsd.org,asomers@gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[freebsd.org : SPF not aligned (relaxed), No valid DKIM,none]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[asomers@freebsd.org,asomers@gmail.com]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[asomers]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[209.85.219.51:from]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[209.85.219.51:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4THyqQ185gz4r8B Wow, there have been a lot of responses. I think I touched on a sensitive issue. I'll group everything together in one reply. TLDR; I think imp's proposal is best. * Rust's ABI is too unstable to use for libraries This actually isn't a problem. The stability situation for the Rust ABI is similar to C++; you can't link a C++ app to a C++ library unless they were both built with the same compiler version. The C ABI, of course, is quite stable. And it's very easy to build a Rust library as a cdylib so that C applications can access it. But there are restrictions: the library's public API can't do things that C can't, like generic functions. * Why Rust instead of Perl, Java, C#, or Go? The crucial difference between Rust and those other four, basically between Rust and everything else since C++ [1], is that Rust is suitable for low-level systems programming. It lacks memory manangement, green threads, etc. The runtime is small (and optionally can be removed entirely). Rust isn't quite as low-level as C, but it's in about the same position as C++. * Why not just use C++ then? Speaking from experience, I'm far more productive in Rust than C++, and my code has many fewer bugs, too. I had been using C++ professionally for 11 years before I learned about Rust, but after 6 months my Rust skills were better than my C++ skills. That's why I finally realized that I wasn't the cause of my C++ problems; C++ was. In general, it feels like C++ has a cumbersome mix of low-level and high-level features. Smart pointers, for example, are handy. But because it retains so much C-compatibility C++ can't enforce the use of smart pointers. And it can't even warn against the use of dumb pointers. It certainly can't check their lifetimes. But in Rust, all pointers are smart [2], so the compiler can help you avoid a wide range of common bugs. * Rust will go out of fashion by the 2040s Perhaps it will. But Like David Chisnall, I'm afraid that if FreeBSD never modernizes, then it itself will go out of fashion by the 2040s. * " can't be implemented unless written in rust" I don't think anybody has claimed this yet. But I _have_ made a similar claim, that some things can't be written in C. I'll elaborate on the project that started this thread: the fusefs test suite. When I designed the fusefs test suite, I based it around the priniciple of Mocking. Each test case has a client thread that does normal file system access, and a server thread that implements a fuse file server. But it isn't a full implementation of a fuse file server; it's just a shim around a mock object. For each test case, the file server's behavior is programmed with expectations. The mocking technique is so limited and awkward to use in C that almost nobody bothers. Just compare the documentation for CMockery (C) with Mockall (Rust). C++'s Googlemock is somewhere in between. * async Rust sucks I disagree, but that's probably worth a separate email thread of its own. In particular, some of the content on the linked rant is not accurate. * Reimplement CVSUp in Rust That sounds like a challenge! I'm not saying that I want to do it, but I'm still interested to look at how CVSUp was done. But where is it? The port is deleted and the web page is gone. * Rust in base would double our compile times Yes, it would. That's the worst thing about it. * Rust in base would cause massive code bloat. Yes, it would, because in addition to the toolchain and standard library most Rust applications would pull in various dependencies. Command line argument parsing, serialization/deserialization, fancy data structures, etc. For both this and the above reason, I'm really liking imp's proposal for a "make extraworld" - stuff that's in base but depends on an external toolchain. [1] Yes I know about Modula-3, D, etc. But for various reasons those never gained traction. [2] Dumb pointers exist too, but they're almost never used except when binding to a C library. [3] https://github.com/lpabon/cmockery2/blob/master/doc/usage.md [4] https://docs.rs/mockall/latest/mockall/ From nobody Sun Jan 21 16:26:13 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4THzHv4nPxz57lM1 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 16:26:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4THzHv24CPz4tt5; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 16:26:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.55.3]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B166889281; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 16:26:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPS id 40LGQEOb013135 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 21 Jan 2024 16:26:14 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: (from phk@localhost) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.17.1/8.16.1/Submit) id 40LGQDim013134; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 16:26:13 GMT (envelope-from phk) Message-Id: <202401211626.40LGQDim013134@critter.freebsd.dk> To: Alan Somers cc: George Mitchell , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) In-reply-to: From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" References: <1673801705774097@mail.yandex.ru> <202401210751.40L7pWEF011188@critter.freebsd.dk> <40bc1694-ee00-431b-866e-396e9d5c07a2@m5p.com> List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <13132.1705854373.1@critter.freebsd.dk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2024 16:26:13 +0000 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4THzHv24CPz4tt5 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; ASN(0.00)[asn:1835, ipnet:130.225.0.0/16, country:EU] Alan Somers writes: > * " can't be implemented unless written in rust" > > I don't think anybody has claimed this yet. But I _have_ made a similar= claim, > that some things can't be written in C. I'll elaborate on the project t= hat > started this thread: the fusefs test suite. When I designed the fusefs = test > suite, I based it around the priniciple of Mocking. [...] Why would such a test-tool live in src rather than ports ? Poul-Henning PS: I'd look for cvsup on old CD-ROMs. -- = Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe = Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence= . From nobody Sun Jan 21 16:40:03 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4THzc12cYBz57mHX for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 16:40:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asomers@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vk1-f172.google.com (mail-vk1-f172.google.com [209.85.221.172]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4THzc04SJyz3xZ3 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 16:40:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asomers@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-vk1-f172.google.com with SMTP id 71dfb90a1353d-4b74a9a9d4cso637095e0c.1 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 08:40:16 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1705855215; x=1706460015; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=UI7IghqNSeTdgvDiS70cjxtWHpx5hVzpCtArTR5M6uE=; b=OHqBdftXnuk/UkOjT92WQoljo15loi0sEqdFeSSqglG9EJvLmqBqnchnN898vDKYqV aKgt7vxJeb/z9s/qS57DiDjgJBHeb2BXRMCWBX0mgPMlDJPgJ2VBs/5vusVtMNPZcHjN ob5fdYjki+qpH+3vHEQau8h76aq4YauRJwOcKCdd9lE+XDJ8TOZraPnlufagkWVEf7/N 3dQx+KKIf0Jt2YXnuPhbLv4NiSrVrLlNT+yridS2C/TyQMYr6YIFG5O6cU76ONhCWuZ5 j9zyQq8BbWxsiigd2VWbpRegYU7xG3TyhFUhaDLLgte5bFFtcXQuLec1FRH94+5w6Cd6 ZP8Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyPJ4mG+MeERa6raKswG4LLPiBGdZezWvIghfoR5eKsDbCoLMzN +Gsg7MqCAedX3ODJqRVpzUZYxojeItxjKqtUBz166JnJzUmERF/D2CP5LRv1Q7Y2VISC/Xrew6T WXMH29AYN4qWE+B7todsS14SeNUWAbnqc X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGqg5oQ5qizog953rDKn8tlgr/Ln/QI9DNY452E/gB9W4jyxOmTeQCJVDfFrttsfZR7EGO8jrbbXsHYGnR3Fw0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6122:1698:b0:4b6:b979:a28 with SMTP id 24-20020a056122169800b004b6b9790a28mr745502vkl.17.1705855215386; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 08:40:15 -0800 (PST) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1673801705774097@mail.yandex.ru> <202401210751.40L7pWEF011188@critter.freebsd.dk> <40bc1694-ee00-431b-866e-396e9d5c07a2@m5p.com> <202401211626.40LGQDim013134@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: <202401211626.40LGQDim013134@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Alan Somers Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2024 09:40:03 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: George Mitchell , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4THzc04SJyz3xZ3 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US] On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 9:26=E2=80=AFAM Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > Alan Somers writes: > > * " can't be implemented unless written in rust" > > > > I don't think anybody has claimed this yet. But I _have_ made a simila= r claim, > > that some things can't be written in C. I'll elaborate on the project = that > > started this thread: the fusefs test suite. When I designed the fusefs= test > > suite, I based it around the priniciple of Mocking. [...] > > Why would such a test-tool live in src rather than ports ? I initially considered putting it in ports just for that reason. But it's too tightly coupled to src. The tests need to change with every feature addition or bug fix to src. If the tests lived in ports, then they would have to be aware of all of the differences between main, stable/14, stable/13, releng/13.2, etc. Updates to src would have to be synchronized with updates to ports, and the package builders introduce a few days' lag. I thought that synchronization effort would be too great. That's why I put the tests in src and used C++. From nobody Sun Jan 21 16:40:52 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4THzcq4pp5z57mCn for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 16:40:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kp@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4THzcq2f87z4144; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 16:40:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kp@FreeBSD.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1705855259; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=Q88s7lAyEVr1zs+EKYBWhMob3p62HSxjB8wtpOd+pRo=; b=ByScpTzOf/Bmh065+cgp96AdaXMPQpLip1Nqym1D51MUDL0Gfc5QZ59CcjeBS2OR8mcKEl +K6PgQNuDKCbC08DOX58NpLFtHTAM5wIe4n2u+iVdjByBmH8EIYzqs8lS7rVSuY84tHPoG DpaEn3A6GND8dIa5oFEytIrrM+CWF91kXOIzxpffeI7R3djPZeR5lwquWu56ZnhgcmxDji hZzyCNJPtwHt4UJDlp4mAgfMgQaoagLnSqVYwBr3MHibselTvUUxI8SMol8Y/IRiBngExl LpUSNlyfdscS/teK3mKPEHCpLdGp1qdu4VCPenLqyupMB4LLPr6021iTyLUvGA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1705855259; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=Q88s7lAyEVr1zs+EKYBWhMob3p62HSxjB8wtpOd+pRo=; b=BZDme/OgqcXRG1LJhXsllH2/FTbJ8vkNO2cwDA1zgopQqlQsmL1fs3RxBNmmDmoInNAAt2 IL4gM3ScKtaqPNT3vhwBOFbhUiNQqzcmg+iCi0FTOTDMI5NQDWx/s19o19a0JPCQtYroSN FYBoyYDstr1Bz0c9aa6WRru8RwHNJb2KMocO/K1Akh6PgIadAUGfXjnFdKsQ5NX4zvRSkU iUOnrum3tRS7QrAnNYKgjhWZeoQEKdg9/+CShmHMhmvMNIRtc85bxFQoqErpwNlRJfGAq+ IHamZuw5Bo2EySnavMuXLWN5bk+gtgXn7YWEe6YdHXZlapWJtMAuw51Sem9OzA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1705855259; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=PyAkiVRqxzvtE+PQgBxpSElizdZ8lboLgEdJ+7vAASc+aCo9uZj4HfGAq9kCvmjGi02pHC Pn2d48ZzTLpVlZoF/eXXLxgeK1hDEKu8sIfQ09kPNH6oDGuqCPwEuj89x4sTb49WofuhsU V5KZBfmMJGOmgfVMyFa7IIWquQkjJq/ENTPrf1llZv9kX0WbZubSacyc0pMTU7yBnE7JTI 4aLI5RKN+jEihYbPd+MZgr1M9ixDOOlwrpL4LyDCG/CAAROkbWOgXTmYOLBJQM4CB1s3xV SuzZfJCPMIXkI1n81RY0WQj+Lyf1SMnOR1rwWF/scxsuCsfRUZsYJJPMIhRpGw== Received: from venus.codepro.be (venus.codepro.be [5.9.86.228]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mx1.codepro.be", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) (Authenticated sender: kp) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4THzcq113Zz1Plp; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 16:40:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kp@FreeBSD.org) Received: by venus.codepro.be (Postfix, authenticated sender kp) id C821E46918; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 17:40:56 +0100 (CET) From: Kristof Provost To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: Alan Somers , George Mitchell , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2024 17:40:52 +0100 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.14r5937) Message-ID: <4EF67303-A995-457A-990F-A4972C23EA80@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <202401211626.40LGQDim013134@critter.freebsd.dk> References: <1673801705774097@mail.yandex.ru> <202401210751.40L7pWEF011188@critter.freebsd.dk> <40bc1694-ee00-431b-866e-396e9d5c07a2@m5p.com> <202401211626.40LGQDim013134@critter.freebsd.dk> List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 21 Jan 2024, at 17:26, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > Alan Somers writes: >> * " can't be implemented unless written in rust" >> >> I don't think anybody has claimed this yet. But I _have_ made a simil= ar claim, >> that some things can't be written in C. I'll elaborate on the project= that >> started this thread: the fusefs test suite. When I designed the fusef= s test >> suite, I based it around the priniciple of Mocking. [...] > > Why would such a test-tool live in src rather than ports ? > It=E2=80=99s entirely reasonable for the test code to live in the same re= pository as the code it tests. Doing otherwise would make life harder (e.g. how do you establish if a te= st failure is expected with a given src version) for no good reason. I suspect we may be working with different views of what a test tool does= here. You may be thinking more along the lines of something like iperf, = while I=E2=80=99m thinking more of test like this one: https://cgit.freeb= sd.org/src/commit?id=3D4c84c69ba308b7758d07dc8845b13922ed667e02 I=E2=80=99ll take the opportunity to point out that there=E2=80=99s prece= dent for using non-base languages in tests (e.g. Python, for the test lin= ked above), so using Rust code for in-tree tests looks like a reasonable = way to get our toes wet, without immediately painting ourselves into a co= rner if it doesn=E2=80=99t work out. =E2=80=94 Kristof From nobody Sun Jan 21 16:44:30 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4THzj52kQ1z57mGS for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 16:44:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net [65.75.216.6]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4THzj41qf6z41vN for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 16:44:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net has no SPF policy when checking 65.75.216.6) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id 40LGiUcc086689; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 08:44:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id 40LGiUra086688; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 08:44:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <202401211644.40LGiUra086688@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) In-Reply-To: <40bc1694-ee00-431b-866e-396e9d5c07a2@m5p.com> To: George Mitchell Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2024 08:44:30 -0800 (PST) CC: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.10 / 15.00]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.996]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:10494, ipnet:65.75.216.0/23, country:US]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[dnsmgr.net]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4THzj41qf6z41vN > On 1/21/24 02:51, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > [...] > > The tools are /never/ the real problem. > > [...] > > But after I read this entire thread, the "pro" argument for Rust > > seems boil down to just "all the cool kids do it". > > [...] > > I will also "second" the comment about C++ getting to be a really > > good language, in particular if you play it like a violin: > > [...] > > Poul-Henning > > > Poul-Henning Kamp is always worth listening to. I shortened my > quotation in order to get to the real point quickly: > > +1. ++1 Long ago I learned to stand on the shoulders of giants, phk, I thank you for the shoulders! > -- George -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From nobody Sun Jan 21 16:50:38 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4THzr726T8z57ms9 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 16:50:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from kib.kiev.ua (kib.kiev.ua [IPv6:2001:470:d5e7:1::1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4THzr65rnpz43VQ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 16:50:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from tom.home (kib@localhost [127.0.0.1] (may be forged)) by kib.kiev.ua (8.17.1/8.17.1) with ESMTP id 40LGocdW084017; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 18:50:41 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 kib.kiev.ua 40LGocdW084017 Received: (from kostik@localhost) by tom.home (8.17.1/8.17.1/Submit) id 40LGockE084016; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 18:50:38 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) X-Authentication-Warning: tom.home: kostik set sender to kostikbel@gmail.com using -f Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2024 18:50:38 +0200 From: Konstantin Belousov To: Alan Somers Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) Message-ID: References: <1673801705774097@mail.yandex.ru> <202401210751.40L7pWEF011188@critter.freebsd.dk> <40bc1694-ee00-431b-866e-396e9d5c07a2@m5p.com> List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED,FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD,FREEMAIL_FROM, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=4.0.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0 (2022-12-14) on tom.home X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4THzr65rnpz43VQ X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US] On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 09:04:52AM -0700, Alan Somers wrote: > Wow, there have been a lot of responses. I think I touched on a > sensitive issue. I'll group everything together in one reply. TLDR; > I think imp's proposal is best. > > * Rust's ABI is too unstable to use for libraries > > This actually isn't a problem. The stability situation for the Rust ABI is > similar to C++; you can't link a C++ app to a C++ library unless they were both > built with the same compiler version. The C ABI, of course, is quite stable. > And it's very easy to build a Rust library as a cdylib so that C applications > can access it. But there are restrictions: the library's public API can't do > things that C can't, like generic functions. I do not think this paragraph is accurate. First, there is C++ ABI, that is followed by compilers, and divergences are treated as serious bugs. Second, even if you limit Rust library to C-representable features, it is still not guaranteed to have stable external ABI. You need to apply a lot of FFI powder to the interface, starting with repr(C) for types (otherwise layou is not stable) and functions name mangling control (again no guarantee for the mangling scheme stability), ending with proper types use and absence of definition what is C-compatible interface. From nobody Sun Jan 21 16:55:54 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4THzzF6RVqz57nxv for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 16:56:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lain@fair.moe) Received: from mail.076.ne.jp (mail.076.ne.jp [45.76.218.69]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4THzzD3XH9z45Tn for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 16:56:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lain@fair.moe) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=076.ne.jp header.s=dkim header.b=BCmmON7D; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of lain@fair.moe has no SPF policy when checking 45.76.218.69) smtp.mailfrom=lain@fair.moe Received: from mail.076.ne.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.076.ne.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4THzz92bd3zW42R for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2024 01:56:53 +0900 (JST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=076.ne.jp; h= user-agent:in-reply-to:content-disposition:content-type :mime-version:references:message-id:subject:to:from:date; s= dkim; t=1705856212; x=1708448213; bh=SInVF9kAbZCBaScAZ5AB4eexIRg 8MOlpv5BiOB4aqZM=; b=BCmmON7DdFT5Z/MuH+QdoKzgpo9+mdrCNTBRIkLVgNL FkKaVxrOMotw+GHIQhYAuBIHM2VT2SB3WLJzokg/4ynObpZIB85EMz9qZfY3iL/r CLofS0BRvtkeqOqEsZCBovnHl0Ylvg1iMmVxzv5p0cRnH87r9Jb84Xn4lzBLxOuQ wfZl6f6Ho9umwha6tkiYT+oRJtTDhiows3rr1y8EuOvH5vwiGrcH91Tp4h5xWEyL /yJXebYTSQxaLSIhSjOwEOxqP5KkKb2f1SoAHVIQej5B4/gtCtIe5+fpNr5x9WNj 6ewhxKirJWi2eCYRZjjjcqGn+yPZQBxa2bvBFmbKj1Q== X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at guest.guest Received: from mail.076.ne.jp ([127.0.0.1]) by mail.076.ne.jp (mail.076.ne.jp [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id jNZ1hPTVxLO2 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2024 01:56:52 +0900 (JST) Received: from mail.fair.moe (ip1.193.076.moe [219.117.254.193]) by mail.076.ne.jp (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4THzz81tZzzW40T for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2024 01:56:52 +0900 (JST) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2024 01:55:54 +0900 From: "lain." To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) Message-ID: X-Location: =?utf-8?B?IkVhcnRoL+WcsOeQgyI=?= X-Operating-System: "GNU/Linux" References: <1673801705774097@mail.yandex.ru> <202401210751.40L7pWEF011188@critter.freebsd.dk> <40bc1694-ee00-431b-866e-396e9d5c07a2@m5p.com> List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="iyijgmclpzhtuohq" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: NeoMutt/20231221 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.90 / 15.00]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[076.ne.jp:s=dkim]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[fair.moe]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:20473, ipnet:45.76.192.0/19, country:US]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[076.ne.jp:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4THzzD3XH9z45Tn --iyijgmclpzhtuohq Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Interesting responses. I figured I'll give some input on those. On 2024=E5=B9=B401=E6=9C=8821=E6=97=A5 09:04, the silly Alan Somers claimed= to have said: > I think I touched on a sensitive issue. This is expected to happen, especially after the amount of controversy this already has caused on the Linux side of things. > * Why Rust instead of Perl, Java, C#, or Go? >=20 > The crucial difference between Rust and those other four, basically betwe= en > Rust and everything else since C++ [1], is that Rust is suitable for low-= level > systems programming. It lacks memory manangement, green threads, etc. T= he > runtime is small (and optionally can be removed entirely). Rust isn't qu= ite as > low-level as C, but it's in about the same position as C++. There is the borrow checker though. I haven't coded in Rust further than just the first chapter kinda level, but it theoretically sounds like instead of the burden of memory management being put on the runtime (Java, Go, C#) or on the programmer (C, C++), it's done by the compiler (Rust, Zig). > * Why not just use C++ then? >=20 > Speaking from experience, I'm far more productive in Rust than C++, and m= y code > has many fewer bugs, too. I had been using C++ professionally for 11 yea= rs > before I learned about Rust, but after 6 months my Rust skills were bette= r than > my C++ skills. That's why I finally realized that I wasn't the cause of = my C++ > problems; C++ was. In general, it feels like C++ has a cumbersome mix of > low-level and high-level features. Smart pointers, for example, are handy= =2E But > because it retains so much C-compatibility C++ can't enforce the use of s= mart > pointers. And it can't even warn against the use of dumb pointers. It > certainly can't check their lifetimes. But in Rust, all pointers are sma= rt > [2], so the compiler can help you avoid a wide range of common bugs. I know the feel man, I attempted to learn C++ so many times, only to find myself uncontiously using C instead. Actual C++ is so rich in features, I feel like you just can't learn C++ unless you've been with it since the 1980s. Rust does seem to suffer from the same problem as C++ in that features keep getting added on over time. It's quite a contrast from C or Go where the standard libraries barely change throughout their entire existence. > * Rust will go out of fashion by the 2040s >=20 > Perhaps it will. But Like David Chisnall, I'm afraid that if FreeBSD nev= er > modernizes, then it itself will go out of fashion by the 2040s. I don't really see changing languages as "modernization". In the webdev space we've seen so many "modernizations" so many times, it more often feels like this whole space is building the Tower of Babel, rather than something like a Sphinx; so a structure doomed to eventually collapse, rather than something that only loses 1 piece, but other than that survives thousands of years of history. > * " can't be implemented unless written in rust" As long as it's a real language, anything can be implemented in any real language. By the end of the day, every language eventually becomes assembly, which in turn becomes machine code, and a programming language is only there for the programmer to make him or her understand what the hell is going on. > * Rust in base would double our compile times >=20 > Yes, it would. That's the worst thing about it. Compile times could be lowered by refraining from using Cargo packages for literally everything, but from so many projects I've come across, it really seems just as impossible for Rust developers as it does for Javascript developers to refrain from using NPM packages. And this is my biggest issue with everything being turned into Rust, especially after having witnessed everything being turned into NodeJS prior. --=20 lain. Did you know that? 90% of all emails sent on a daily basis are being sent in plain text, and i= t's super easy to intercept emails as they flow over the internet? Never send passwords, tokens, personal information, or other volunerable in= formation without proper PGP encryption! If you're writing your emails unencrypted, please consider sending PGP encr= ypted emails for security reasons. You can find my PGP public key at: https://fair.moe/lain.asc Every good email client is able to send encrypted emails. If yours can't, then you should consider switching to a secure email client= , because yours just sucks. My recommendations are Claws Mail or NeoMutt. For instructions on how to encrypt your emails: https://unixsheikh.com/tutorials/gnupg-tutorial.html --iyijgmclpzhtuohq Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQGzBAEBCAAdFiEEozVhUpXECiNYIKIXtWNzC1Y29b0FAmWtTJcACgkQtWNzC1Y2 9b1pHgwAinT89YwnWapKLWqfliA4/ARxvmsLUp2FIP+Eauvd/n9mhZh4BgI5CbtQ 8K4hFY7d56NDblk+UrlesceTafm0xAH3OK3cAAFtnakzbdT/iIC3JxT/i1SZf4zK 1bAY0mSPVjRQBfvYE2xc7amw1qkgkzMf1BLQkjEqBgcrXAy5v43Q460BHzHIw7rQ 51yb98Qw2tooJgk8pLJqq38UNO8YzEJYzCXGhRYFC9FzIiElphhZ+Dy0z78hVelo WSgGcbwUNN6GJb6U/12QvwgjbNtDyRLuyNIgqRVL/HFIhhpVBkUFhPWUkuIMIuGU 3eKaQj8VTpvXrZ23f3gXABJBxHIjDoRD63+CnSNY+qUZpUda0hQQl2/z2t09E0T6 AfqUTNuqQa+JlBbqsBnkVhBM9ydwB/JPajh0cUl/GW56jVAxQFtI3gaSCLMQnyMA nMtS7V2ng3J3HkZ73xB56uiCgKlCZo6AdAX06VXxU7eUgx/qdL9ZrCpeGCpGkkF4 +nyc3DYZ =tOr9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --iyijgmclpzhtuohq-- From nobody Sun Jan 21 17:13:57 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TJ0Lv5CS2z57KcX for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 17:13:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TJ0Lv2kYzz49WP; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 17:13:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.55.3]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 97A2D89281; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 17:13:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPS id 40LHDv5S025463 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 21 Jan 2024 17:13:57 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: (from phk@localhost) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.17.1/8.16.1/Submit) id 40LHDv6b025462; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 17:13:57 GMT (envelope-from phk) Message-Id: <202401211713.40LHDv6b025462@critter.freebsd.dk> To: Alan Somers cc: George Mitchell , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) In-reply-to: From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" References: <1673801705774097@mail.yandex.ru> <202401210751.40L7pWEF011188@critter.freebsd.dk> <40bc1694-ee00-431b-866e-396e9d5c07a2@m5p.com> <202401211626.40LGQDim013134@critter.freebsd.dk> List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <25460.1705857237.1@critter.freebsd.dk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2024 17:13:57 +0000 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4TJ0Lv2kYzz49WP X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; ASN(0.00)[asn:1835, ipnet:130.225.0.0/16, country:EU] -------- Alan Somers writes: > > Why would such a test-tool live in src rather than ports ? > > I initially considered putting it in ports just for that reason. But > it's too tightly coupled to src. The tests need to change with every > feature addition or bug fix to src. I know exactly where you come from there: I had that exact problem in Varnish too. My solution was to separate the "test-running tool" from the "test-case description", by writing the latter in a DSL interpreted by the former. One very big advantage was the almost total elimination of "boiler-plate" in the test-case descriptions. You can see a typical "complex" test-case here: https://github.com/varnishcache/varnish-cache/blob/master/bin/varnishtest= /tests/c00016.vtc But there are so many other advantages that I could talk about this for hours, but we can do that in private email if you are interested :-) I'm not saying that the exact same idea can be used to test FUSE, but IMO you should /really/ try to find a solution along those lines. So yes, I feel your plight, but it does not convince me that we need to pay the huge cost of Rust in src. -- = Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe = Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence= . From nobody Sun Jan 21 17:21:55 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TJ0X56LVzz57LVj for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 17:21:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TJ0X55SZRz4DKF; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 17:21:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.55.3]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D545F89281; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 17:21:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPS id 40LHLtlO025496 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 21 Jan 2024 17:21:55 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: (from phk@localhost) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.17.1/8.16.1/Submit) id 40LHLtHv025495; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 17:21:55 GMT (envelope-from phk) Message-Id: <202401211721.40LHLtHv025495@critter.freebsd.dk> To: Kristof Provost cc: Alan Somers , George Mitchell , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) In-reply-to: <4EF67303-A995-457A-990F-A4972C23EA80@FreeBSD.org> From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" References: <1673801705774097@mail.yandex.ru> <202401210751.40L7pWEF011188@critter.freebsd.dk> <40bc1694-ee00-431b-866e-396e9d5c07a2@m5p.com> <202401211626.40LGQDim013134@critter.freebsd.dk> <4EF67303-A995-457A-990F-A4972C23EA80@FreeBSD.org> List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <25493.1705857715.1@critter.freebsd.dk> Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2024 17:21:55 +0000 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4TJ0X55SZRz4DKF X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; ASN(0.00)[asn:1835, ipnet:130.225.0.0/16, country:EU] -------- Kristof Provost writes: > > Why would such a test-tool live in src rather than ports ? > > > > It's entirely reasonable for the test code to live in the same > repository as the code it tests. "reasonable" is a very wishy-washy standard :-) My view is that test-decriptions SHALL live with the code they test. But there is no particular reason why the test-tool, which interprets those test-descriptions and perform the test as described need to. Insisting they do so, also, almost by definition, limits their abilities. For instance a test-tool living in src cannot have a graphical UX. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From nobody Sun Jan 21 17:29:12 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TJ0hb0SGlz57MBl for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 17:29:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ihor@antonovs.family) Received: from mail.antonovs.family (mail.antonovs.family [100.25.240.195]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mail.antonovs.family", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TJ0hZ6zQBz4FVm; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 17:29:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ihor@antonovs.family) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=antonovs.family; s=20200215; t=1705858154; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=0ByZgNhsQiTgBGb/aAT3P06AHa5egRVVOqxGXy4btfo=; b=v3IweiGpAWYbNT+kLibkse09nZFw6glSpCcSlny+EDWTdgAUHsROaSRU7LCROAOuPwW6Gp FMpnE4Tin9hp4SybMUbk14iPLvgQ+0gYdHwIIoJ8o1suAenkwkvlKKYhxPS6CZJ1AHbTto 6f0EaC/b4hvJUnKXZBSQflNB06Pl0vY= Received: by mail.antonovs.family (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id 748323fa (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256:NO); Sun, 21 Jan 2024 17:29:14 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2024 09:29:12 -0800 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) Content-Language: en-US To: Alan Somers References: <1673801705774097@mail.yandex.ru> <202401210751.40L7pWEF011188@critter.freebsd.dk> <40bc1694-ee00-431b-866e-396e9d5c07a2@m5p.com> From: Ihor Antonov Cc: freebsd-hackers In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4TJ0hZ6zQBz4FVm X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14618, ipnet:100.24.0.0/13, country:US] On 1/21/24 08:04, Alan Somers wrote: > * Why Rust instead of Perl, Java, C#, or Go? I have more interesting questions: - What are we going to do when Mojo comes out? It is a compiled superset of python that will have a better borrow checker and is going to be suitable for low-level systems development? Chris Lattner  - they guy who wrote LLVM is building it, and he says Rust's approach is not the best. There will be a new hype wave. Productivity gains from mojo *will* outshine Rust. [1] - Are we going to add python/mojo to the codebase? - Are we going to remove Rust? - It is not about Rust per-se. How many more languages can we add to the src before it becomes  an unmaintainable mess? - What is our vision and policy about languages in src? [1] https://docs.modular.com/mojo/ > * Why not just use C++ then? > > Speaking from experience, I'm far more productive in Rust than C++ Same. But I'm afraid personal productivity comes at a cost of decreasing our collective productivity. Shifting mental gears from C to Rust is hard. It is much easier to shift from C to C++ (a reasonable subset thereof). Also - have we tried using C++ as if it is C? Read what PHK writes. We don't have to use all C++ features. We don't have to learn all of C++. I have a working prototype of C++23 codebase where I write C++ as C but with - methods on structs - namespaces - modules (C++20) No STL, no templates, none of the C++ insanity. This just makes a better C. Yes, I know that defining and maintaining a "sane" C++ subset is not trivial, but it seems to be like a much better way to evolve src. > * Rust will go out of fashion by the 2040s Yes, it is only the first systems language that has borrow checker and no GC. Mojo is coming. There will be more.. ... BTW, Someone mentioned Zig and I want to develop this idea further. Zig in base is actually not a crazy idea at all! I am currently playing with Zig and ZIg is great. - It mixes with C much better than Rust. - It can be bootstrapped from vanilla LLVM. - It has conservative mindset - much closer to C and Go rather than C++ and Rust. - Productivity gains are as great as in Rust, or bigger. - Zig foundation has not been (yet) overrun by corporate overlords. > [1] Yes I know about Modula-3, D, etc. But for various reasons those > never gained traction. > [2] Dumb pointers exist too, but they're almost never used except when > binding to a C library. > [3] https://github.com/lpabon/cmockery2/blob/master/doc/usage.md > [4] https://docs.rs/mockall/latest/mockall/ > -- Ihor Antonov From nobody Sun Jan 21 19:06:04 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TJ2rN2cQVz57WbS for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 19:06:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ihor@antonovs.family) Received: from mail.antonovs.family (mail.antonovs.family [100.25.240.195]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mail.antonovs.family", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TJ2rM3nJbz4WYX; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 19:06:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ihor@antonovs.family) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none ("invalid DKIM record") header.d=antonovs.family header.s=20200215 header.b=yTF6+vfN; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=antonovs.family; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ihor@antonovs.family designates 100.25.240.195 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ihor@antonovs.family DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=antonovs.family; s=20200215; t=1705863966; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding; bh=gQkhXtVSm7L8eFb5fDZrjo57GyklpoB8O0CPPGWTX3E=; b=yTF6+vfNaelITCkWqot/aE/JeUsdcBHCqCo65ZbvviCtMrrm1qa1HNKWn9pLCVJ2MMzPgU mefcSMhQLdnfAWXIjW3KV7MloeNMTNSTqACG+jwp80kp4UV+N6GFKoOdAv3JDEZwXYb0Mi FNm2GqCYFpJBI5BNUNnyM4bFmDihD0g= Received: by mail.antonovs.family (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id b2cfc5cf (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256:NO); Sun, 21 Jan 2024 19:06:05 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2024 11:06:04 -0800 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Content-Language: en-US To: core@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-hackers From: Ihor Antonov Subject: The Problem Of Governance (or lack thereof) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.77 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.998]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.985]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[antonovs.family,none]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; R_DKIM_PERMFAIL(0.00)[antonovs.family:s=20200215]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14618, ipnet:100.24.0.0/13, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[antonovs.family:~] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4TJ2rM3nJbz4WYX I am starting a new thread because "The Case for Rust" is already too big, and the questions I am about to ask here are not about Rust. This is going to be a bit philosophical and I think more important than any concrete I have *intentionally* added CORE team to the address list. Our official website says > Core Team constitutes the project’s "Board of Directors", responsible for deciding the project’s overall goals and direction as well as managing specific areas of the FreeBSD project landscape. [1] or here [2] > The FreeBSD Core Team is the governing body of FreeBSD. The "Case for Rust" ml thread has re-surfaced a lot of *very important* questions that do require a governing body to actually do its work - to govern, to produce decisions. This is hard and someone has to take the responsibility. The question whether to add Rust to src immediately begs more questions: - Why Rust? - Why now? - Do we even need more languages in base? - What is wrong with current languages available? - Does it mean we are going add the next hype tech to the base too? Any answer given to these questions immediately brings a new set of questions: - What is the framework (set of principles) we used to answer these questions? - Do we even have such a framework? Or will tomorrow we change our mind because different mood strikes? At the *core* (pun intended) there are fundamental questions that must be answered. Every living being (a human or a society) needs a vision of the future to live and make progress. Remove the coherent vision of future and the direction of growth becomes Brownian motion [3]. Deny the possibility of the future at all and any living being dies (that is why animals in the zoo tend to live shorter despite living with everything provided) Does FreeBSD has a vision of the future? It is not enough to say what we are doing, it is also necessary to say how we are doing it and why we doing it. Because we have no solid answers to these questions explaining that FreeBSD is not a linux distro to an outside observer becomes challenging. What really differentiates us from Linux? The license sticker? in-tree ZFS? Stagnation-borderline conservatism? These are pretty shallow answers, we need to do better. Remember any light-bulb epiphany moment you had. Suddenly you get this idea and you are full of energy to go try it out. This happens when we have crystalized an idea - a vision of the future. Coherent vision of the future gives energy to go make that future a reality. Absolutely the same thing happens with communities - you get solid vision of the future and new contributors come. FreeBSD has a problem with attracting new contributors because we don't have a solid vision of the future. All of us use FreeBSD for our reasons, but are those the same reasons for everyone? Collectively we don't have a common vision. That is why becoming a src contributor is such a difficult process. "Just find something you like to work on and do it" is not enough. Will my work be needed? Who needs it? What is the point of all this? Linux already has it, does it meant we also need to have it? A thread in the mailing list has no resolution or consensus, and it is never "over". We need better mechanisms for policy making. Lucky for us we have the core team which is a governing body. So I want to ask the core team these questions: - What is the technical direction of the FreeBSD project? Where do we go? Why do we go there? - What is the policy on programming languages in base? Sub questions:     - Are we adding every trending tech?     - Do were ever remove it when better tech is available?     - How many languages is too many? DO we have an upper limit on language count?     - What problems exist today that existing languages can't solve? Is it a skill issue of a given individual (This is not a dig at Alan) or is this a mass effect that allows us to admit that certain tech is not good enough? I am a full-time FreeBSD user (both desktop and servers) since 2017. To me, and to many other community members as I am sure Core does not really exist. Can I see what core is doing? Can I hear what core is saying? I'm afraid the answers are negative. It would be great if we can hear from Core on such important matters ever now and then. FreeBSD is by-and-large is a community of oldfarts (me including) who decided to hide from the future in this cozy little project that moves slowly and does not ask existential questions very often. But we can't hide from the future forever. Without new contributors the project will go into oblivion sooner then we can imagine. We need solid answers on question: - Who are we? - What do we do? - Why we do it? - How we do it? FreeBSD as a collective group has identity problem because we can't answer these questions. I propose to conduct a poll on these 4 questions just to see how incoherent the answers will be. FreeBSD as a technical project and a community needs technical governance to set the identity and direction. I can't think of a better time for the Core Team to step up lead. [1] https://www.freebsd.org/administration/#t-core [2] https://www.freebsd.org/status/report-2023-01-2023-03/core/ [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownian_motion -- Ihor Antonov From nobody Sun Jan 21 19:14:20 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TJ3291Gl6z57YZB for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 19:14:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from george+freebsd@m5p.com) Received: from mailhost.m5p.com (mailhost.m5p.com [74.104.188.4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "m5p.com", Issuer "R3" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TJ3286Vwvz4Y0s; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 19:14:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from george+freebsd@m5p.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from [IPV6:2001:470:1f07:15ff::26] (court.m5p.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:15ff:0:0:0:26]) (authenticated bits=0) by mailhost.m5p.com (8.17.1/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 40LJEKP2057543 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 21 Jan 2024 14:14:26 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from george+freebsd@m5p.com) Message-ID: <3450b677-bb20-4409-a9a3-70a84c710e11@m5p.com> Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2024 14:14:20 -0500 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: The Problem Of Governance (or lack thereof) Content-Language: en-US To: Ihor Antonov , core@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-hackers References: From: George Mitchell Autocrypt: addr=george+freebsd@m5p.com; keydata= xjMEZaHDbxYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdA2W6oBfS8haXY0/Ft4zS1OTLYfC8EBIADPTgMQdh85C3N KEdlb3JnZSBNaXRjaGVsbCA8Z2VvcmdlK2ZyZWVic2RAbTVwLmNvbT7CmQQTFgoAQRYhBDpv v9n4+UzMLAJ8EZocD3futmd9BQJlocSiAhsDBQkFo5qABQsJCAcCAiICBhUKCQgLAgQWAgMB Ah4HAheAAAoJEJocD3futmd9SxwBAJUi6DNdVhWCZBTv5XGy1g0JgApLWe/3S0M0zz9sn7/L AQCcJcV5k5s2rt9J5C1AUm6XVsuneVvIWXO5j1GKWk0NC844BGWhw28SCisGAQQBl1UBBQEB B0AaFz/6B95RRvjOdLZr5fSdhuIHvwr24H3ePDZSw6wlUwMBCAfCfgQYFgoAJhYhBDpvv9n4 +UzMLAJ8EZocD3futmd9BQJlocNvAhsMBQkFo5qAAAoJEJocD3futmd9RXsBANwRD9RE56F6 /jeZOrujHICLcgPiOt50Y6866v9OUTjUAP9GlC1aopfBpNwuPLJBam7oBaGqvY98VDhzOjoT 7DNbCQ== In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; 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name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wnsEABYIACMWIQQ6b7/Z+PlMzCwCfBGaHA937rZnfQUCZa1tDAUDAAAAAAAKCRCaHA937rZnfV8W AQDkxc3br8ch1HhgRz2t1aQy5JbCfnkO2J8ghm4Vzg8HsgD/e8MelvPboJnfrmFObnJXz74IeoZV 15uGIyK3UhQ9Lg0= =5Z69 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------WUF4F4lXJY3v0kZlvkgIF0eO-- From nobody Sun Jan 21 19:28:32 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TJ3LD6tJBz57Zl7 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 19:28:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TJ3LD4gCGz4d1l; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 19:28:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.55.3]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1DDEC89281; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 19:28:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPS id 40LJSXqa095288 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 21 Jan 2024 19:28:33 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: (from phk@localhost) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.17.1/8.16.1/Submit) id 40LJSWnE095287; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 19:28:32 GMT (envelope-from phk) Message-Id: <202401211928.40LJSWnE095287@critter.freebsd.dk> To: Ihor Antonov cc: core@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-hackers Subject: Re: The Problem Of Governance (or lack thereof) In-reply-to: From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" References: List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <95285.1705865312.1@critter.freebsd.dk> Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2024 19:28:32 +0000 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4TJ3LD4gCGz4d1l X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:1835, ipnet:130.225.0.0/16, country:EU] Ihor Antonov writes: > I am a full-time FreeBSD user (both desktop and servers) since 2017. To > me, and to many other community members as I am sure Core does not > really exist. Core is not the "Board of Directors", who makes all the hard decisions, and everybody else shuts up and codes in the direction they are told to. Core is more of a "General Secretary" function, who's job it is to keep the meeting in order, provide paper, pencils and refreshments, and diplomatically try to facilitate the delegates reaching some kind of consensus, or if they cannot, to credibly count the votes. As to Rust in src, the meeting is still ongoing, intelligent and informed opinions and arguments are being exchanged, so core@ is probably leaning back, enjoying the sound of a project humming along just the way core@ likes it to... Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From nobody Sun Jan 21 19:52:04 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TJ3sW1x5lz57cKM for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 19:52:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-ed1-x52f.google.com (mail-ed1-x52f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TJ3sV50xPz4hS3 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 19:52:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-ed1-x52f.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-55a87dfc3b5so1340632a12.3 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 11:52:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1705866733; x=1706471533; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=rFxVAqoAQ6hMiTWUHBw1nE9DLkd23Ws8wEj3wt/5zik=; b=LHAznMlIZYFnDJYgnz6bPQNp9P2X2XbWlOgIVtN+289+6HbqJL1UwcjbZHw+QxRY41 E5QCmS66zzaU9TPOT4ARkfq2AyFos96zQLZ6lx82va8hFmQa8FLFXXGUyuP7vm1BKq1V JqoLHkqupDI0Y8fMPs6Tpvm2n0sl7Psrr6pcirFdVOEup3m4As4jJdxjWqS4i8wuZxLn ZYLcOzZHUqIDXEtbnQ27Ay/MW/DsJpys9u50ZNMBLDEvG/Sv9aEHEr+IHHBMF6hSM9UC DlwzA9VavStQm2Q4XQ+85T27JYY4Tf18eR6ZPX5VRsHBC++PMOGVDzudP7mSpcV1qV79 D8vw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1705866733; x=1706471533; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=rFxVAqoAQ6hMiTWUHBw1nE9DLkd23Ws8wEj3wt/5zik=; b=H3YgPeOaeHq79UEUlLKNFtiGxjjg47OkpeCgF/PH3RkxP/wqn/HAEiitkQMNaDwDBN V/QGH9ZAa68JGIVr75TM69g5s8dfmoyhH9SNiO0YouM2Wb+qdIs2oVXoT0WkSCxF06DZ CdXzyeqwyPLTk4uBD2oQrRr8afAyMzDhh//kP9gY7tAELOdTKbi4G45QjRgKP4B95VFH zt4FRc+cpZcX/DwS/t0kMFDrvbKlg3is5L0xLjkwYYaHIvYH0Rw1JmvxQAYDjHuBQNiT m4qz8/sE6S299hjnbU11rVZZR+4h5oq4gK2jjxGhJPbaTlbGqnKyAELj1h/eqz+JX6Y4 eWeA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yxivjq9513cs8/s/3d0c5O7X3DOLbSbfviKWvCBQJC4OBv7LPk2 ZB2u5xrndlmkRIMUzKW9/PB4R/2qojZep/Wd6FcSd4szlK7L+iqsJyDuHHaHKcaGfJRlfL/X6zp 1tON6tTX7SbtlsH6+wLLzx3+rzFGnOLlXfiq99g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFUQMku7bB7dVZd5XJjhHJYjT/WbYkb2qT+GDd1l8UtBA0DT4iRdfGArTAZF+9oH1MiyjW/MAiMWk9lVcNWrSk= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:c553:0:b0:55a:db1:3bf7 with SMTP id s19-20020aa7c553000000b0055a0db13bf7mr1626621edr.26.1705866733347; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 11:52:13 -0800 (PST) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1673801705774097@mail.yandex.ru> <202401210751.40L7pWEF011188@critter.freebsd.dk> <40bc1694-ee00-431b-866e-396e9d5c07a2@m5p.com> <202401211626.40LGQDim013134@critter.freebsd.dk> <4EF67303-A995-457A-990F-A4972C23EA80@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <4EF67303-A995-457A-990F-A4972C23EA80@FreeBSD.org> From: Warner Losh Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2024 12:52:04 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) To: Kristof Provost Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Alan Somers , George Mitchell , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000acf412060f7a0c63" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4TJ3sV50xPz4hS3 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] --000000000000acf412060f7a0c63 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 9:41=E2=80=AFAM Kristof Provost wr= ote: > On 21 Jan 2024, at 17:26, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > Alan Somers writes: > >> * " can't be implemented unless written in rust" > >> > >> I don't think anybody has claimed this yet. But I _have_ made a > similar claim, > >> that some things can't be written in C. I'll elaborate on the project > that > >> started this thread: the fusefs test suite. When I designed the fusef= s > test > >> suite, I based it around the priniciple of Mocking. [...] > > > > Why would such a test-tool live in src rather than ports ? > > > It=E2=80=99s entirely reasonable for the test code to live in the same re= pository > as the code it tests. > > Doing otherwise would make life harder (e.g. how do you establish if a > test failure is expected with a given src version) for no good reason. > > I suspect we may be working with different views of what a test tool does > here. You may be thinking more along the lines of something like iperf, > while I=E2=80=99m thinking more of test like this one: > https://cgit.freebsd.org/src/commit?id=3D4c84c69ba308b7758d07dc8845b13922= ed667e02 > > I=E2=80=99ll take the opportunity to point out that there=E2=80=99s prece= dent for using > non-base languages in tests (e.g. Python, for the test linked above), so > using Rust code for in-tree tests looks like a reasonable way to get our > toes wet, without immediately painting ourselves into a corner if it > doesn=E2=80=99t work out. > Exactly. There will be 0 rust in base until we can build rust binaries in some way. I maintain that the first step for that is using a curated external toolchain. Tests are a good place to start because they let us stand up the tooling we need for rust, find out what the problems are, and maybe get something useful too w/o committing "all in" to rust. It's the put up or shut up moment: If the rust advocate can't be bothered to even stand this up (and I'm happy to help with that effort for the build bits) then there will be 0 rust in base because nobody cared. If that is stood up and we get tests, we'll have more data to know if it is wise to expand the experiment or close it down. In addition to being in line with tests in Python, this is in line with adapting risky technology that we've done in the past: We tried it out, kept what worked and junked what didn't. It's a risk for those wanting rust: it may be a failed experiment in which case their time is wasted. The hypothesis is that rust is useful and that tests written in rust will be easier / faster / better enough to justify the extra hassle. Let's test that hypothesis. Tests are easy enough to rewrite or do without should that hypothesis prove to be flawed. Even if all the cool kids are doing it, it doesn't mean the cool kids are wrong. We should not reject the hypothesis on that basis alone. The only way to know is to try it out and there's enough out-of-tree rust things in ports to suggest the next logical step is to put the hooks in needed to use an external toolchain to build something. This is a watered down version of write cvsupd, to be honest, but one that's testable, measurable, specific and finite. It gives us data for any follow on choices. Warner --000000000000acf412060f7a0c63 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 9:41=E2=80=AF= AM Kristof Provost <kp@freebsd.org= > wrote:
On 2= 1 Jan 2024, at 17:26, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> Alan Somers writes:
>> * "<something> can't be implemented unless written = in rust"
>>
>> I don't think anybody has claimed this yet.=C2=A0 But I _have_= made a similar claim,
>> that some things can't be written in C.=C2=A0 I'll elabora= te on the project that
>> started this thread: the fusefs test suite.=C2=A0 When I designed = the fusefs test
>> suite, I based it around the priniciple of Mocking. [...]
>
> Why would such a test-tool live in src rather than ports ?
>
It=E2=80=99s entirely reasonable for the test code to live in the same repo= sitory as the code it tests.

Doing otherwise would make life harder (e.g. how do you establish if a test= failure is expected with a given src version) for no good reason.

I suspect we may be working with different views of what a test tool does h= ere. You may be thinking more along the lines of something like iperf, whil= e I=E2=80=99m thinking more of test like this one: https://cgit.freebsd.org/src/commit?id=3D= 4c84c69ba308b7758d07dc8845b13922ed667e02

I=E2=80=99ll take the opportunity to point out that there=E2=80=99s precede= nt for using non-base languages in tests (e.g. Python, for the test linked = above), so using Rust code for in-tree tests looks like a reasonable way to= get our toes wet, without immediately painting ourselves into a corner if = it doesn=E2=80=99t work out.

Exactly. T= here will be 0 rust in base until we can build rust binaries in some way. I= maintain that the first step for that is using a curated external toolchai= n. Tests are a good place to start because they let us stand up the tooling= we need for rust, find out what the problems are, and maybe get something = useful too w/o committing "all in" to rust. It's the put up o= r shut up moment: If the rust advocate can't be bothered to even stand = this up (and I'm happy to help with that effort for the build bits) the= n there will be 0 rust in base because nobody cared. If that is stood up an= d we get tests, we'll have more data to know if it is wise to expand th= e experiment or close it down. In addition to being in line with tests in P= ython, this is in line with adapting risky technology that we've done i= n the past: We tried it out, kept what worked and junked what didn't. I= t's a risk for those wanting rust: it may be a failed experiment in whi= ch case their time is wasted. The hypothesis is that rust is useful and tha= t tests written in rust will be easier / faster / better enough to justify = the extra hassle. Let's test that hypothesis. Tests are easy enough to = rewrite or do without should that hypothesis prove to be flawed.
=
Even if all the cool kids are doing it, it doesn't mean = the cool kids are wrong. We should not reject the hypothesis on that basis = alone. The only way to know is to try it out and there's enough out-of-= tree rust things in ports to suggest the next logical step is to put the ho= oks in needed to use an external toolchain to build something. This is a wa= tered down version of write cvsupd, to be honest, but one that's testab= le, measurable, specific and finite. It gives us data for any follow on cho= ices.

Warner
--000000000000acf412060f7a0c63-- From nobody Sun Jan 21 20:13:01 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TJ4KX5RKfz57fCP for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 20:13:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TJ4KX2ThTz4mNM; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 20:13:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.55.3]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EFCF889281; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 20:13:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPS id 40LKD1tx095507 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 21 Jan 2024 20:13:01 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: (from phk@localhost) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.17.1/8.16.1/Submit) id 40LKD1a7095506; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 20:13:01 GMT (envelope-from phk) Message-Id: <202401212013.40LKD1a7095506@critter.freebsd.dk> To: Warner Losh cc: Kristof Provost , Alan Somers , George Mitchell , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) In-reply-to: From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" References: <1673801705774097@mail.yandex.ru> <202401210751.40L7pWEF011188@critter.freebsd.dk> <40bc1694-ee00-431b-866e-396e9d5c07a2@m5p.com> <202401211626.40LGQDim013134@critter.freebsd.dk> <4EF67303-A995-457A-990F-A4972C23EA80@FreeBSD.org> List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <95504.1705867980.1@critter.freebsd.dk> Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2024 20:13:01 +0000 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4TJ4KX2ThTz4mNM X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; ASN(0.00)[asn:1835, ipnet:130.225.0.0/16, country:EU] -------- Warner Losh writes: > Even if all the cool kids are doing it, it doesn't mean the cool kids are > wrong. We should not reject the hypothesis on that basis alone. I certainly didn't mean to imply that, my point about cvsup was precisely that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. The only comment I want to add, is that the test-cases should be expressed such that, if/when we find out Rust wasn't God's gift to programmers, we can reimplement the tool which interprets them in some hot-language-du-jour, without having to rewrite all the actual test-cases. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From nobody Sun Jan 21 21:04:20 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TJ5Sx5pqwz57l6b for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 21:04:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asomers@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ua1-f44.google.com (mail-ua1-f44.google.com [209.85.222.44]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TJ5Sx3cHpz43rq; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 21:04:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asomers@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-ua1-f44.google.com with SMTP id a1e0cc1a2514c-7d2a67daa25so744340241.0; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 13:04:33 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1705871072; x=1706475872; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=3MIuRuOefXwb9LcYrtteU7dflxv0rYHm6tYXjpeAwos=; b=WdWgojCi8axHmOCUVsVXlPq31iUNraACSgUzROQQUZxtM7l5uPW3R9zLivgtx7X5KE aNw3xv6CK7LNFKS2+Nen5dtALYyZSIhjORoOPFAeXwTmAQiOXtNN8xJTRnOEKgU1aPbk sjOuM4o2X8fVQvEujhWJ9F75ENjw34jhfnZzL5z95ZiZAHMRdeGUvqKWMrkqaLHe4SUp 6RZysm9+eeF7iM6Wflx5HC/CKG8vsXvxZzrFY4qtTNfY9+HQyskWWnWtoSWC1dQykLON FLLyuTHyPI5f/y1QEf7BsjVKgxxILwfz2vrJaL0nrHSrJk6eqI71KySOi0XZSu0VIXOi g/EQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yz8rGBF07Op3uF0ka8tE4fdOKsA+cza6QAdulvTkk4R183gxokh pv8bORGVZeOkXAmIrBRVhC4PtbjSbQi6RjeFGppoeC3Co5KJAt5KFQiVwvLgBYBXX1+MoU7dT93 4leAficcfHg2yGaLE6ZX0ik5SOWCNByJE X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHt3YobldrAhEDHkKQCtGLsW+gU4pqFBw8cfZxp7ggbfjiHJ5TcfecSY9KpP0lwdd0Cop0nUO3tSxwF8Hq59zM= X-Received: by 2002:a67:f48f:0:b0:469:a26c:cd40 with SMTP id o15-20020a67f48f000000b00469a26ccd40mr1344036vsn.71.1705871072599; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 13:04:32 -0800 (PST) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1673801705774097@mail.yandex.ru> <202401210751.40L7pWEF011188@critter.freebsd.dk> <40bc1694-ee00-431b-866e-396e9d5c07a2@m5p.com> <202401211626.40LGQDim013134@critter.freebsd.dk> <4EF67303-A995-457A-990F-A4972C23EA80@FreeBSD.org> <202401212013.40LKD1a7095506@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: <202401212013.40LKD1a7095506@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Alan Somers Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2024 14:04:20 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: Warner Losh , Kristof Provost , George Mitchell , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4TJ5Sx3cHpz43rq X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US] On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 1:13=E2=80=AFPM Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > -------- > Warner Losh writes: > > > Even if all the cool kids are doing it, it doesn't mean the cool kids a= re > > wrong. We should not reject the hypothesis on that basis alone. > > I certainly didn't mean to imply that, my point about cvsup was precisely > that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. > > The only comment I want to add, is that the test-cases should be > expressed such that, if/when we find out Rust wasn't God's gift to > programmers, we can reimplement the tool which interprets them in > some hot-language-du-jour, without having to rewrite all the actual > test-cases. I think imp and phk are after different things. phk wants a tool written in Rust that be installed from ports and interpret test cases defined in src. That's similar to the fsx tests, which I'm planning to add to src once the package builder catches up. But imp wants test cases that are actually written in Rust and which live in src, to test his external toolchain proposal. That's very different. It's an unusual requirement. Off hand I can't think of many subsystems that are a good match for a test suite like that. ypclnt(3) might be one. From nobody Sun Jan 21 21:31:56 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TJ64p27TSz57n3q for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 21:32:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-lj1-x234.google.com (mail-lj1-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::234]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TJ64p0RBQz46k5 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 21:32:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-lj1-x234.google.com with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2cdeb80fdfdso26421781fa.2 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 13:32:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1705872727; x=1706477527; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=ospt07Q/btj4JubwI6mVnyoxM1rRJIWDzwjww63rUtg=; b=WNjcsmijOMR4tRtsL5HKvpzirUj0rPzzphSbvpII6GkIFAwRrmLAMKYnANILQwm+Kq vD0OYeQ8WQR8ll8CmueQi2bnOKmwUus8/wtvufFMn8Kz8i6MXaYC2tYqSKYjSaSYt9Ao 25oygHkBCZXZKw+4bjtnN7z3mK9Tkma3F5JmEubRrWSk7z6SXR2cxnzEzQNEW3R8LvZl UDQeb1TtUPreqY1/XeSjyZgDEW4XbRW1ysbXjkPp/sb/vwtEGcSNGWcCnBc7jSt7rjpb udydYwq/TRiB1U0bXwvUYtoHbGrsym4acMh1wZA89gNbJbQAO8G88qVqFJfzmCawXrQ6 hT1w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1705872727; x=1706477527; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=ospt07Q/btj4JubwI6mVnyoxM1rRJIWDzwjww63rUtg=; b=Bf4ekK6sl9ninm3soKzEIK5p+xqpT3vRR2ZmyEi2JSJrrrxJCUNz3j5Fp4rwoe4opR nzxLi38E6y9eshMtqR6MNuITU/OocYNnitrBJ4usTJk3avkkII/NF7D1CGXFO9vBPTW+ EbF5can6NKAEKfEoR1hPHs1SsbDCrwyJac7GmmdmLwUPxS+FAyTnT82sXgSXxLVOJAXd jzH9G2FLEcbnVhDnm0ALg6qaVPR4UBAdUBEjSdLQwEe4FvMoyxHc2GWlNnKxotPUKVYo gfW3MSMj03/FHOdq0zKHaP+HXqnyaCEbkN4WMGe5at1dyscvJdSSxlSodaCmTlGrNR2x uIZg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyQtsXnx9qfGXNV+BexSdOuppucAvFUVQWt1p+W3FSADZ+FSdG7 Mq8CieorXGCCCGhV3rFIKm9AtWdKtJKIPwojg6UXi9ShmqaJQ0UZkHRiB64fMYb/TMwmAarnC0x Se02NUdjFed1qft8pDpqk3444hnQeo47yiWX/ZA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGoLoONsLLiO6IzrjBybtCVmTvkX4i81m3fHaDBQ45Zefaeb26Dcz4NXXCN3cgbJOdvZ1bgolD0xFTVCQr+R40= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9942:0:b0:2cd:fbe5:667a with SMTP id r2-20020a2e9942000000b002cdfbe5667amr509579ljj.143.1705872726122; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 13:32:06 -0800 (PST) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1673801705774097@mail.yandex.ru> <202401210751.40L7pWEF011188@critter.freebsd.dk> <40bc1694-ee00-431b-866e-396e9d5c07a2@m5p.com> <202401211626.40LGQDim013134@critter.freebsd.dk> <4EF67303-A995-457A-990F-A4972C23EA80@FreeBSD.org> <202401212013.40LKD1a7095506@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2024 14:31:56 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) To: Alan Somers Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Kristof Provost , George Mitchell , FreeBSD Hackers Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000df72fe060f7b71c1" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4TJ64p0RBQz46k5 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] --000000000000df72fe060f7b71c1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jan 21, 2024, 2:04=E2=80=AFPM Alan Somers wro= te: > On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 1:13=E2=80=AFPM Poul-Henning Kamp > wrote: > > > > -------- > > Warner Losh writes: > > > > > Even if all the cool kids are doing it, it doesn't mean the cool kids > are > > > wrong. We should not reject the hypothesis on that basis alone. > > > > I certainly didn't mean to imply that, my point about cvsup was precise= ly > > that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. > > > > The only comment I want to add, is that the test-cases should be > > expressed such that, if/when we find out Rust wasn't God's gift to > > programmers, we can reimplement the tool which interprets them in > > some hot-language-du-jour, without having to rewrite all the actual > > test-cases. > > I think imp and phk are after different things. phk wants a tool > written in Rust that be installed from ports and interpret test cases > defined in src. That's similar to the fsx tests, which I'm planning > to add to src once the package builder catches up. But imp wants test > cases that are actually written in Rust and which live in src, to test > his external toolchain proposal. That's very different. It's an > unusual requirement. Off hand I can't think of many subsystems that > are a good match for a test suite like that. ypclnt(3) might be one. > Hmmm, I'd kinda thought you wanted to rewrite fsx in rust and use it as part of the kyua tests, much like io.cc simulates some of the things fsx does. I didn't care about the details of whether it was a test case, used by test cases or interprets the results. It really doesn't matter to me beyond (a) it's used to test the system or some aspect of the system and (b) it's written in rust and compiled when we generally compile the other tests and test-like things. I thought this was exactly what you were proposing as one of the things that would show how writing it in rust would give us some benefit. But to be honest, I'm agnostic about how the 'build rust things in base via external toolchain' stuff is used for. The important thing is that something non-critical be selected as a pilot project to see whether the hassles of adding this, maintaining the port, and the resulting better outcomes because it's in rust. I proposed something related to testing (the (a) above) because that's well segregated from the rest of the system and it's something that could be redone, in all likelihood, in some other language should the need arise. I had thought fsx and fsx-rs would provide a nice compare and contrast study if they gave us approximately the same things. And besides, it's just my opinion of what project would be both useful and produce good data about using Rust in the base. I'm sure others could be proposed as well. Warner > --000000000000df72fe060f7b71c1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sun, Jan 21, 2024, 2:04=E2=80=AFPM= Alan Somers <a= somers@freebsd.org> wrote:
O= n Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 1:13=E2=80=AFPM Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freebs= d.dk> wrote:
>
> --------
> Warner Losh writes:
>
> > Even if all the cool kids are doing it, it doesn't mean the c= ool kids are
> > wrong. We should not reject the hypothesis on that basis alone. >
> I certainly didn't mean to imply that, my point about cvsup was pr= ecisely
> that the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
>
> The only comment I want to add, is that the test-cases should be
> expressed such that, if/when we find out Rust wasn't God's gif= t to
> programmers, we can reimplement the tool which interprets them in
> some hot-language-du-jour, without having to rewrite all the actual > test-cases.

I think imp and phk are after different things.=C2=A0 phk wants a tool
written in Rust that be installed from ports and interpret test cases
defined in src.=C2=A0 That's similar to the fsx tests, which I'm pl= anning
to add to src once the package builder catches up.=C2=A0 But imp wants test=
cases that are actually written in Rust and which live in src, to test
his external toolchain proposal.=C2=A0 That's very different.=C2=A0 It&= #39;s an
unusual requirement.=C2=A0 Off hand I can't think of many subsystems th= at
are a good match for a test suite like that.=C2=A0 ypclnt(3) might be one.<= br>

Hmmm, I'd = kinda thought you wanted to rewrite fsx in rust and use it
as par= t of the kyua tests, much like io.cc simulates some of the things
fsx does. I didn't care about the details of whether it was a test cas= e,
used by test cases or interprets the results. It really doesn&= #39;t matter to
me beyond (a) it's used to test the system or= some aspect of the system
and (b) it's written in rust and c= ompiled when we generally compile the
other tests and test-like t= hings. I thought this was exactly what you were
proposing as one = of the things that would show how writing it in rust
would give u= s some benefit.

But to be honest, I'm agnostic= about how the 'build rust things in base
via external toolch= ain' stuff is used for. The important thing is that something
non-critical be selected as a pilot project to see whether the hassles of<= /div>
adding this, maintaining the port, and the resulting better outco= mes
because it's in rust. I proposed something related to tes= ting (the (a) above)
because that's well segregated from the = rest of the system and it's
something that could be redone, i= n all likelihood, in some other language
should the need arise. I= had thought fsx and fsx-rs would provide a nice
compare and cont= rast study if they gave us approximately the same things.

And besides, it's just my opinion of what project would be both= useful and produce
good data about using Rust in the base. I'= ;m sure others could be proposed
as well.

Warner
--000000000000df72fe060f7b71c1-- From nobody Sun Jan 21 21:36:56 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TJ6BQ4JTlz57njn for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 21:37:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from robert@rrbrussell.com) Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.24]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TJ6BP6B7xz47wy for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 21:37:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from robert@rrbrussell.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=rrbrussell.com header.s=fm2 header.b=WrnwQTs7; dkim=pass header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b="Y /l+bTv"; dmarc=pass (policy=quarantine) header.from=rrbrussell.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of robert@rrbrussell.com designates 64.147.123.24 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=robert@rrbrussell.com Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4120D320030E for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 16:37:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 21 Jan 2024 16:37:00 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rrbrussell.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type:date :date:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:subject:subject:to:to; s=fm2; t=1705873019; x=1705959419; bh=HsMldDoS7uHwTcyYPxbgQAJKxdCrOaGR4uPyXz/GEzE=; b= WrnwQTs7JnOO+Iakq9zBbLzMN5Xc3stX2sfPpYLoKTvx6E/AHopAN5loDIzrJb0/ WQjnHrO0KKipDtVrXRoNlr4ZTsIJpNwxtejtijTFhg8hb+t4BUSFVeftJyIgjmQ/ J5BFlipriVLZI3d3x0OW16OApCpMRLZ/00xLN/N3n8ypRF1jpRfAu5GlqONWn7nT e46RUICMonfaYa9cO9+GdEZMChBZoEzqk5KvmsFNUB1CJ24TTIdf9c3t3krF7d5/ BH/ivLZtjUDuGSIWVPxsawbxTu8HET2nOb4oz9HwtUuYueK62nHl/EOqq28VNKSy Sh240mzmWOhtZTqJgUN35g== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :content-type:date:date:feedback-id:feedback-id:from:from :in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :reply-to:subject:subject:to:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy :x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; t=1705873019; x= 1705959419; bh=HsMldDoS7uHwTcyYPxbgQAJKxdCrOaGR4uPyXz/GEzE=; b=Y /l+bTvpBz5+ff8xt1ByImAoSoBmfUzOOYNFLmATSKTC/Qn0ISxajtULmszopkew1 bvV/P2j6JKc5HsAwWRx9bwuIhlH3bg1qxOAS+AUNjW0XCrPNDFb/0kG+pVC3S9pq HOEaVthgnVjzQUFC4DFoSeNhvjoJB7EBThXv8tRlJaPGSRlJEnOE+qkJ9bSKBNID h93NApfbwIZ/6xjzbl0F919Ro0xqXimFnqXXM9ZGvjBy6QcAIqCudQuJ6aD/uKLG hO1JU7qMZF7teMwpg22sHHZAPtb93xDpmxuO9w2skoTeMUaNlrMtDixa501T+quZ SJwE+bLSI48FaJp2UIGDg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvkedrvdekgedgudehtdcutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepfffhvffukfgjfhfogggtgfesth ejredtredtvdenucfhrhhomhepfdftohgsvghrthcutfdrucftuhhsshgvlhhlfdcuoehr ohgsvghrthesrhhrsghruhhsshgvlhhlrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeduhf ejieekkeekieehgfeghefhjeegledvledvtdetgeevfeefvdeiffekvddtgfenucevlhhu shhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehrohgsvghrthesrh hrsghruhhsshgvlhhlrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: ie421460a:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 16:36:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2024 15:36:56 -0600 From: "Robert R. Russell" To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) Message-ID: <20240121153656.050752c4@venus.private.rrbrussell.com> In-Reply-To: <80529ee4-acc3-456c-8aa9-7fd7ebbf0803@m5p.com> References: <01519AEB-2725-492F-BC17-A7A40166D437@FreeBSD.org> <80529ee4-acc3-456c-8aa9-7fd7ebbf0803@m5p.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.19.1 (GTK+ 2.24.33; amd64-portbld-freebsd14.0) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spamd-Bar: ----- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.10 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[messagingengine.com:dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rrbrussell.com,quarantine]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rrbrussell.com:s=fm2,messagingengine.com:s=fm3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:64.147.123.24]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[64.147.123.24:from]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[robert]; ASN(0.00)[asn:29838, ipnet:64.147.123.0/24, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROMTLD(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rrbrussell.com:+,messagingengine.com:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4TJ6BP6B7xz47wy On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 12:58:25 -0500 George Mitchell wrote: > On 1/20/24 12:34, Dimitry Andric wrote: > > [...] > > However, I think this discussion is going in the wrong direction: > > why keep attempting to build all these huge toolchain components in > > our base system at all? [...] > > +1. > I speak from ignorance on the cost/benefit ratio of rust. So perhaps > someone can tell us: what is the size of the rust runtime > library(ies)? Do we continue to want FreeBSD to support small > systems? Should we ponder dividing the base system into the > lightweight part and the heavier weight part? Honestly, I am not > trying to sow dissension, but I do suggest a serious discussion. > -- George Rust defaults to static linking. However, it doesn't blindly link everything in either. Excluding systems with a non volatile storage capacity measured in megabytes Rust will fit in just fine. From nobody Sun Jan 21 22:20:45 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TJ7972qndz57s3P for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 22:20:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asomers@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vk1-f181.google.com (mail-vk1-f181.google.com [209.85.221.181]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TJ79719t9z4HkR; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 22:20:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asomers@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-vk1-f181.google.com with SMTP id 71dfb90a1353d-4b7480a80ceso2153459e0c.0; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 14:20:59 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1705875658; x=1706480458; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=hzACVPkSPoz9l23iNg54A3ale/JYapLybJLhDeVLrxI=; b=AlFfPmfhpWOS17qhQMhXKr94OdU54++ZzWqVxcW3IirHWv24L+XPifeziYX4J6Ju+G KDtWH5mFHKKAvU+ayD6VSOLgdYcWQEuZBfc7LvvWBygMotBZX1bXDeTFSl1KAmX7CNna y3Jz5QGxJPkohiCw3OYkzz3fankYJFEEKXqls8Xeo1LR1R8NE9q3uJWvCniZ0BlhVweM +JW6lFVvniNjKfguG63YmFTgS0eevKgpSyj3e3zVfW6J/rVxU/Y4behOmjoPVhzE7fep Oywvo6EopO+BPY00MFlFjv+lXvqNGnsuIaAQ+YCmPWXefsfE913cZw1P+lTR1GC+KY+t Bvrw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YztiPJ2+TyqGIMPg3+SNkBNg8DhyClhhhRVwSsYfYCqLS+ZM4Pw 3qj4HZe5z2D1kTgjnA+DzkWs6HsMFROVwIah+9iTjVHOzeFrlu9L41ko5Io8jkfwb+B1rdFEbS2 AiARYREnGip5yKQ90g7LQRkx25xM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IG9yUEB+lmpAVjLyWtFfvfw4Jz3l1jwoePvvCs7ZQ0YNJf1gdBcI5k/+4fExVDzS3iyuSZZvkt47pD4CI/pMzU= X-Received: by 2002:ac5:cdeb:0:b0:4b7:3b27:7c78 with SMTP id v11-20020ac5cdeb000000b004b73b277c78mr2248862vkn.15.1705875658299; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 14:20:58 -0800 (PST) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1673801705774097@mail.yandex.ru> <202401210751.40L7pWEF011188@critter.freebsd.dk> <40bc1694-ee00-431b-866e-396e9d5c07a2@m5p.com> <202401211626.40LGQDim013134@critter.freebsd.dk> <4EF67303-A995-457A-990F-A4972C23EA80@FreeBSD.org> <202401212013.40LKD1a7095506@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: From: Alan Somers Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2024 15:20:45 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) To: Warner Losh Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Kristof Provost , George Mitchell , FreeBSD Hackers Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4TJ79719t9z4HkR X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US] On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 2:32=E2=80=AFPM Warner Losh wrote: > > > > On Sun, Jan 21, 2024, 2:04=E2=80=AFPM Alan Somers w= rote: >> >> On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 1:13=E2=80=AFPM Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >> > >> > -------- >> > Warner Losh writes: >> > >> > > Even if all the cool kids are doing it, it doesn't mean the cool kid= s are >> > > wrong. We should not reject the hypothesis on that basis alone. >> > >> > I certainly didn't mean to imply that, my point about cvsup was precis= ely >> > that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. >> > >> > The only comment I want to add, is that the test-cases should be >> > expressed such that, if/when we find out Rust wasn't God's gift to >> > programmers, we can reimplement the tool which interprets them in >> > some hot-language-du-jour, without having to rewrite all the actual >> > test-cases. >> >> I think imp and phk are after different things. phk wants a tool >> written in Rust that be installed from ports and interpret test cases >> defined in src. That's similar to the fsx tests, which I'm planning >> to add to src once the package builder catches up. But imp wants test >> cases that are actually written in Rust and which live in src, to test >> his external toolchain proposal. That's very different. It's an >> unusual requirement. Off hand I can't think of many subsystems that >> are a good match for a test suite like that. ypclnt(3) might be one. > > > Hmmm, I'd kinda thought you wanted to rewrite fsx in rust and use it > as part of the kyua tests, much like io.cc simulates some of the things > fsx does. I didn't care about the details of whether it was a test case, > used by test cases or interprets the results. It really doesn't matter to > me beyond (a) it's used to test the system or some aspect of the system > and (b) it's written in rust and compiled when we generally compile the > other tests and test-like things. I thought this was exactly what you wer= e > proposing as one of the things that would show how writing it in rust > would give us some benefit. > > But to be honest, I'm agnostic about how the 'build rust things in base > via external toolchain' stuff is used for. The important thing is that so= mething > non-critical be selected as a pilot project to see whether the hassles of > adding this, maintaining the port, and the resulting better outcomes > because it's in rust. I proposed something related to testing (the (a) ab= ove) > because that's well segregated from the rest of the system and it's > something that could be redone, in all likelihood, in some other language > should the need arise. I had thought fsx and fsx-rs would provide a nice > compare and contrast study if they gave us approximately the same things. > > And besides, it's just my opinion of what project would be both useful an= d produce > good data about using Rust in the base. I'm sure others could be proposed > as well. > > Warner The fsx rewrite is already complete and it's in ports. I don't see any benefit to bringing it back to src other than to test your external toolchain proposal. Do you still want to do it? From nobody Sun Jan 21 22:50:13 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TJ7q85Jrvz57vdg for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 22:50:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-wm1-x32d.google.com (mail-wm1-x32d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32d]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TJ7q82DRWz4NZV for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 22:50:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-wm1-x32d.google.com with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-40e7065b7bdso31775115e9.3 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 14:50:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1705877426; x=1706482226; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=8sPis3FwR+1FMb9tHVDRf+/LhyJ/42BCpnft4jFoElo=; b=XBcVvnchFV9C9SyHR5YdXKLoY02frKIhuNj4eyPZUHNF6gt+jZj1WVyB0mXLF/CquW ODJQDXfEGwEUDpEqFGRxqskLhOCWw8gXU97V2GQWJ6OghsL2XVSLhnVbgWc8lpI9QalE yO4S87rPmHyOLOzIw5im8HCTuIY+P47Eq8R5GzUmCVSXBfClDPuUEkp7aP4JEza8cb/O ijUmhyRWPlOwThcohaSLH6MGsDkimld6M7tS7o4cD/1Tpp2wc3iIjwYO3V2TEQUwfVsK /Mqlx7vobIjtY7iC3zp6VK8lfeRwMUPaXx214lyKZ6UumTVSVe/T4LNu/LERiukHN6Ju VtWQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1705877426; x=1706482226; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=8sPis3FwR+1FMb9tHVDRf+/LhyJ/42BCpnft4jFoElo=; b=wYXD/yvt3ELZthhdGXI+44bYcQykiEY1BA/DK/t/TGRC3RwRnaSmBw1oJhDSS/UhK7 w4fx0gUDS0mljwHWH9RWN6sdP874RlE28+nr2o0h7J6pKNbH44tqisO637EEVqYnnWj/ PrsiG1Mn2+dzkaFypnF0yuytFhVhlWDQlCg1z/KfZVFjtOVR9f+ByYrsYNMERCehs62I 4dn+9vMWvHQGEiknZukAAg5M/4uAm1KX0Uyrvaad7sAKVU2AsdFArhFQuTSgonhFU3eR Vf0yXnchh+boQBdZzFD4JERDZYnZcp+2PGhETVDHlSekgBC+fSa/F8qbkpuPwsA1Z0ji pcEQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwqsuwlS2OPfrVCGD6SqO8k7X7Bz0aynbOCjqTd+SsA9cNaVNFi qckPJt90JChteNSo1JaN6xRmbnBmrVJWIp0I7sCDVuj/wyPmCzel1rwAMrkwd7lCDPK4pvSIBZ2 OWNpfaI4wnfigoR6dLmYtmr4MqbVy40NRStnFpA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGDrS0n8KxjMd21Xke6MOWnTO9j4OdccpKaP//PjbOZs4wA6daSy938+pkSDvelfJVB5QW2IOwzhCNNJAoVGr0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:1911:b0:40e:8e2b:3ce8 with SMTP id j17-20020a05600c191100b0040e8e2b3ce8mr1151749wmq.51.1705877425366; Sun, 21 Jan 2024 14:50:25 -0800 (PST) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1673801705774097@mail.yandex.ru> <202401210751.40L7pWEF011188@critter.freebsd.dk> <40bc1694-ee00-431b-866e-396e9d5c07a2@m5p.com> <202401211626.40LGQDim013134@critter.freebsd.dk> <4EF67303-A995-457A-990F-A4972C23EA80@FreeBSD.org> <202401212013.40LKD1a7095506@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2024 15:50:13 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) To: Alan Somers Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Kristof Provost , George Mitchell , FreeBSD Hackers Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f83ac7060f7c8994" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4TJ7q82DRWz4NZV X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] --000000000000f83ac7060f7c8994 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jan 21, 2024, 3:20=E2=80=AFPM Alan Somers wro= te: > On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 2:32=E2=80=AFPM Warner Losh wrot= e: > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 21, 2024, 2:04=E2=80=AFPM Alan Somers = wrote: > >> > >> On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 1:13=E2=80=AFPM Poul-Henning Kamp > wrote: > >> > > >> > -------- > >> > Warner Losh writes: > >> > > >> > > Even if all the cool kids are doing it, it doesn't mean the cool > kids are > >> > > wrong. We should not reject the hypothesis on that basis alone. > >> > > >> > I certainly didn't mean to imply that, my point about cvsup was > precisely > >> > that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. > >> > > >> > The only comment I want to add, is that the test-cases should be > >> > expressed such that, if/when we find out Rust wasn't God's gift to > >> > programmers, we can reimplement the tool which interprets them in > >> > some hot-language-du-jour, without having to rewrite all the actual > >> > test-cases. > >> > >> I think imp and phk are after different things. phk wants a tool > >> written in Rust that be installed from ports and interpret test cases > >> defined in src. That's similar to the fsx tests, which I'm planning > >> to add to src once the package builder catches up. But imp wants test > >> cases that are actually written in Rust and which live in src, to test > >> his external toolchain proposal. That's very different. It's an > >> unusual requirement. Off hand I can't think of many subsystems that > >> are a good match for a test suite like that. ypclnt(3) might be one. > > > > > > Hmmm, I'd kinda thought you wanted to rewrite fsx in rust and use it > > as part of the kyua tests, much like io.cc simulates some of the things > > fsx does. I didn't care about the details of whether it was a test case= , > > used by test cases or interprets the results. It really doesn't matter = to > > me beyond (a) it's used to test the system or some aspect of the system > > and (b) it's written in rust and compiled when we generally compile the > > other tests and test-like things. I thought this was exactly what you > were > > proposing as one of the things that would show how writing it in rust > > would give us some benefit. > > > > But to be honest, I'm agnostic about how the 'build rust things in base > > via external toolchain' stuff is used for. The important thing is that > something > > non-critical be selected as a pilot project to see whether the hassles = of > > adding this, maintaining the port, and the resulting better outcomes > > because it's in rust. I proposed something related to testing (the (a) > above) > > because that's well segregated from the rest of the system and it's > > something that could be redone, in all likelihood, in some other langua= ge > > should the need arise. I had thought fsx and fsx-rs would provide a nic= e > > compare and contrast study if they gave us approximately the same thing= s. > > > > And besides, it's just my opinion of what project would be both useful > and produce > > good data about using Rust in the base. I'm sure others could be propos= ed > > as well. > > > > Warner > > The fsx rewrite is already complete and it's in ports. I don't see > any benefit to bringing it back to src other than to test your > external toolchain proposal. Do you still want to do it? > I'm happy to assist anybody that wants to run the experiment. But I'd never planned on driving it. That's for people advocating for the change. If someone wants to build rust things as a demonstration project I'll help with the build system aspects. Warner > --000000000000f83ac7060f7c8994 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sun, Jan 21, 2024, 3:20=E2=80=AFPM Alan Somers <= asomers@freebsd.org> wrote:
On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 2:32=E2=80= =AFPM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 21, 2024, 2:04=E2=80=AFPM Alan Somers <asomers@freebsd= .org> wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 1:13=E2=80=AFPM Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@= phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
>> >
>> > --------
>> > Warner Losh writes:
>> >
>> > > Even if all the cool kids are doing it, it doesn't m= ean the cool kids are
>> > > wrong. We should not reject the hypothesis on that basis= alone.
>> >
>> > I certainly didn't mean to imply that, my point about cvs= up was precisely
>> > that the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
>> >
>> > The only comment I want to add, is that the test-cases should= be
>> > expressed such that, if/when we find out Rust wasn't God&= #39;s gift to
>> > programmers, we can reimplement the tool which interprets the= m in
>> > some hot-language-du-jour, without having to rewrite all the = actual
>> > test-cases.
>>
>> I think imp and phk are after different things.=C2=A0 phk wants a = tool
>> written in Rust that be installed from ports and interpret test ca= ses
>> defined in src.=C2=A0 That's similar to the fsx tests, which I= 'm planning
>> to add to src once the package builder catches up.=C2=A0 But imp w= ants test
>> cases that are actually written in Rust and which live in src, to = test
>> his external toolchain proposal.=C2=A0 That's very different.= =C2=A0 It's an
>> unusual requirement.=C2=A0 Off hand I can't think of many subs= ystems that
>> are a good match for a test suite like that.=C2=A0 ypclnt(3) might= be one.
>
>
> Hmmm, I'd kinda thought you wanted to rewrite fsx in rust and use = it
> as part of the kyua tests, much like io.cc simulates some of the thing= s
> fsx does. I didn't care about the details of whether it was a test= case,
> used by test cases or interprets the results. It really doesn't ma= tter to
> me beyond (a) it's used to test the system or some aspect of the s= ystem
> and (b) it's written in rust and compiled when we generally compil= e the
> other tests and test-like things. I thought this was exactly what you = were
> proposing as one of the things that would show how writing it in rust<= br> > would give us some benefit.
>
> But to be honest, I'm agnostic about how the 'build rust thing= s in base
> via external toolchain' stuff is used for. The important thing is = that something
> non-critical be selected as a pilot project to see whether the hassles= of
> adding this, maintaining the port, and the resulting better outcomes > because it's in rust. I proposed something related to testing (the= (a) above)
> because that's well segregated from the rest of the system and it&= #39;s
> something that could be redone, in all likelihood, in some other langu= age
> should the need arise. I had thought fsx and fsx-rs would provide a ni= ce
> compare and contrast study if they gave us approximately the same thin= gs.
>
> And besides, it's just my opinion of what project would be both us= eful and produce
> good data about using Rust in the base. I'm sure others could be p= roposed
> as well.
>
> Warner

The fsx rewrite is already complete and it's in ports.=C2=A0 I don'= t see
any benefit to bringing it back to src other than to test your
external toolchain proposal.=C2=A0 Do you still want to do it?

I'm happy= to assist anybody that wants to run the experiment. But I'd never plan= ned on driving it. That's for people advocating for the change. If some= one wants to build rust things as a demonstration project I'll help wit= h the build system aspects.

Warner
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Russell" To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) Message-ID: <20240121171403.6f167408@venus.private.rrbrussell.com> In-Reply-To: <202401210751.40L7pWEF011188@critter.freebsd.dk> References: <1673801705774097@mail.yandex.ru> <202401210751.40L7pWEF011188@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.19.1 (GTK+ 2.24.33; amd64-portbld-freebsd14.0) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.10 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rrbrussell.com,quarantine]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rrbrussell.com:s=fm2,messagingengine.com:s=fm3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:64.147.123.21]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[64.147.123.21:from]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[robert]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[messagingengine.com:dkim]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:29838, ipnet:64.147.123.0/24, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROMTLD(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rrbrussell.com:+,messagingengine.com:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4TJ8LS6zl0z4Sfy On Sun, 21 Jan 2024 07:51:32 +0000 "Poul-Henning Kamp" wrote: > -------- > Ihor Antonov writes: > > > As much as I love the idea of Rust, I don't think it is going to > > solve our problems. > > The tools are /never/ the real problem. > > I will readily agree that the ISO-C people have done more to hurt > the C language, and less to improve it, than anybody else, and that > we need to deal with their continued refusal to come into the > 1990'ies. I would love for you to expound on this point further. > But after I read this entire thread, the "pro" argument for Rust > seems boil down to just "all the cool kids do it". > > That exact same argument was used for "Perl in base" and "Java in > base" previously, and if we hadn't dodged those bullets, we wouldn't > be here today. > > The sprawling and loosely connected ports collection has several > strata of "all the cool kids do it" languages, and it seems to be > a much better "organism" for dealing with their eventual obsolescence, > than our tightly integrated src collection. > > I will also "second" the comment about C++ getting to be a really > good language, in particular if you play it like a violin: > > Just because you /paid/ for the entire bow, doesn't mean you > have to /play/ the entire bow. Unfortunately, most Rust programmers treat cargo and crates.io the same way most C++ programmers treat the Standard Template Library and Object Oriented Programming. As much, as many, and as often as possible. > So rather than jump onto this or some other hypewagon-of-the-year, > only to regret it some years later and having to repay the technical > debt with interest to get it out of the tree again, I propose that > we quietly and gradually look more and more to C++ for our "advanced > needs". I don't have your programming experience in and familiarity with C++ so I am looking at this from a different angle. I am worried we might end up with more technical debt faster if we use C++ than if we try something else. In my experience with Linux, now FreeBSD, and college I have seen more C++ and Java projects eat their original programmers out of the project and die than any other two languages singularly or combined. Even the "unmaintainable" C projects I have tried to resurrect got further than any attempt at resurrecting less decayed Java or C++ projects. I don't know exactly why but I have my suspicions. Based on those suspicions I am very leery of migrating code to C++. Rustc and/or Cargo will not be fun to integrate into the build system for base. I think that integration and the Rust code it supports will be easier to maintain or replace than any C++ code. I can mechanically substitute another repo for crates.io which will block Cargo from pulling in anything we don't curate. I don't know of a way to enforce a subset of C++. > I also propose, that next time somebody advocates for importing > some "all the cool kids are doing it language" or other, we refuse > to even look at their proposal, until they have proven their skill > in, and dedication to, the language, by faithfully reimplementing > cvsup in it, and documented how and why it is a better language for > that, than Modula-3 was. > > Poul-Henning > How do you define all the cool kids are doing it language versus I am assuming a serious language? I am not being sarcastic. For example I would personally call JavaScript unsuitable for operating system components but there is a huge amount of it out there. Darcs is written in Haskell but I don't think Haskell is good for operating system components.