From nobody Mon Jun 10 15:43:48 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Vybh35RSJz5M7gQ; Mon, 10 Jun 2024 15:44:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-f46.google.com (mail-io1-f46.google.com [209.85.166.46]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Vybh26Dkzz4lQm; Mon, 10 Jun 2024 15:44:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed), No valid DKIM" header.from=freebsd.org (policy=none); spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of carpeddiem@gmail.com designates 209.85.166.46 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=carpeddiem@gmail.com Received: by mail-io1-f46.google.com with SMTP id ca18e2360f4ac-7eb6ca2cd09so87350939f.2; Mon, 10 Jun 2024 08:44:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1718034241; x=1718639041; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Bnn9IaO4TV+AEFPCFJuTpwbcMe1yenqkqDQwBoK3teQ=; b=d14TSeqbzP5QtAkdT27Udpjk0IFRIH+40SrVWB+sxVRVe+Q265YSbIZ7NrZKkkN1Gq Mg0u1RVRQDFy5HOTUoxjCTEFF9h6lf43rpkmIc+UP5zKjjDOSOxSLBN6UBYX7Y78QC9C P9prG2r6EG3aITwMj5bQmfDKj/vzspOLTdKhcUyo7U/8BlQzXFOaCzKs+pQkvI5unf+I agn8YVHtn4/RKPYfBH1cVNEGwWIOwARFzvSjXKB5ytXzEx8Yvp17QaWfQ0ISg30ZI7hZ ZuAJIcAhr6nbLt3atvzQnO0eFlFK9Q2mBVTAEx95Y3/HroWQjH3FlUmFqiVDFqswMd78 oG1A== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCXHkegujxm6vvdCLGe8FtJmlGnpLpxDh6YSueQVHeShbaa8E3Qd65sMdICzxWMO0P9/0Ti60RgxadJnGyOqDaaPk8Xkx2m393P2Cd+R0KEvXa2BwhyivPrbPbiQRYhJeqJRZqy6/RI= X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxUPqqqTotr/8DOO6TdZnADpPwwlWBEEW/e/Ik+km0qXkzmZlRp uepFJO5nGHSNFxPsai/bfHlVkV7zc4pLj2iOySS01VYgx0NvpKZUsZywwK+/u3BWe2AmFgzT5yV KnYHNAIBaqSD28yqxSf9mnbiVt4KjMJEg X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHtZO6FOKelq83Z/NJz3UGw53sjsTVYXX2tRljHkldYJ1hSmVBsdtK2ssk33Jt6mnrJKfw788eAc0foABbvn+E= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:2c90:b0:7eb:6e81:1bb1 with SMTP id ca18e2360f4ac-7eb6e815528mr710568339f.13.1718034240987; Mon, 10 Jun 2024 08:44:00 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Ed Maste Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2024 11:43:48 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Heads-up: Migrating to LLVM binutils tools (ar, nm, addr2line, etc.) for FreeBSD 15.0 To: "freebsd-toolchain@FreeBSD.org" , FreeBSD Hackers , FreeBSD Ports Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.77 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.987]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.88)[-0.885]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[emaste@freebsd.org,carpeddiem@gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[freebsd.org : SPF not aligned (relaxed), No valid DKIM,none]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[carpeddiem]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[emaste@freebsd.org,carpeddiem@gmail.com]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[209.85.166.46:from]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[209.85.166.46:from]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-toolchain@freebsd.org,freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org,freebsd-ports@freebsd.org]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Vybh26Dkzz4lQm On Mon, 5 Jul 2021 at 11:09, Ed Maste wrote: > > FreeBSD migrated from GNU binutils to versions from ELF Tool Chain, > starting in 2014. At that time there were no usable LLVM versions of > those tools, but they have been developing rapidly since then. Now I > think it may be prudent to migrate to the LLVM tools where they exist, > for both functionality and maintainability reasons. For the rest of the context see the thread at https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers/2021-July/000111.html > Potential next steps are: > - Introduce new build knob This was done by Alex Richardson in commit 021385aba562. > - Iterate on exp-runs and call for testing The exp-run is PR258872. There are five open bugs for ports failing to build with LLVM_BINUTILS: 1. PR270421 graphics/librsvg2-rust This needs to be fixed in the port -- it combines ports LLVM with base system nm / ar, and they're not compatible for LTO. 2. PR270962 sysutils/stressdisk This is an issue in llvm-strip - https://github.com/llvm/llvm-project/issues/53999. For FreeBSD ports the short-term workaround is probably to have it use GNU binutils instead 3. PR270963 textproc/sxml The PR has a patch that addresses the issue, but has some issues that need to be addressed before being committed. 4. PR278172 lang/racket* 5. PR278895 lang/ghc It's not clear to me what's happening for these two. Likely switch to GNU binutils for them. > - Switch to LLVM tools by default > - Major release (14.0) This clearly did not happen for FreeBSD 14.0, but I plan to do this before 15.0. > - Retire knob, leaving only the LLVM implementation. The knob would remain in place for at least one release; this will not happen before 16.0. From nobody Tue Jun 11 02:45:06 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4VytM537jdz5NRbb for ; Tue, 11 Jun 2024 02:45:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-pf1-x42a.google.com (mail-pf1-x42a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4VytM449jFz4t4y for ; Tue, 11 Jun 2024 02:45:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com header.s=20230601 header.b=NSc75sB3; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wlosh@bsdimp.com has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::42a) smtp.mailfrom=wlosh@bsdimp.com Received: by mail-pf1-x42a.google.com with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-70413de08c7so523077b3a.0 for ; Mon, 10 Jun 2024 19:45:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1718073917; x=1718678717; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=hHIPSP+oVqxNMjac2AleqbYswOowJYX98//nExFm35o=; b=NSc75sB3il/x8yBzeH0QhSA7VgftAKd1aUTNAv1Qn5+kq8WdH8usSCx4j72+0WBxqB zy9kS9NvDwCMQdC8JIG6yGdo+/3TBeEb6aD0oCAL7loA+BKZzmI/Oop5qtpJo0WQrYvA yi5Buiz7/i9+QrNGqIXV3iguImSmnLr86fEyLXhxztY2uXBKHe4tEIWWv/TdZlE5PEVx tEr9oqri2wQczhi1dQicdFBhghSsNGxu8faYFyqO0dQ/YVFU9PxQj2uMf6vujjKzPM4X 0KanCSinkxI5Sk/YFdw55R7b6y8dRNslE8AZBLGCoE5HEbYy/wkSI9QMbNBIsDkXVW5B lUMw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1718073917; x=1718678717; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=hHIPSP+oVqxNMjac2AleqbYswOowJYX98//nExFm35o=; b=fXP41O7xgA0xazpY2gqaH0x1IE6TV6FskCdh+GJaX75b+AOBe+qqmwUTJK4+dYhx4Z Wu+o1JZ9TWNUp0iS6+7m7hy2eR9TtakjDz1eQEQ6MfMbrSK2/MyaetSrslzy+ZU2OjXZ jvMScOnmtfylx4KWV08Ujnw/phgwGgN1Us9zfPaTcfwejxHbIxXrTfVkb5OWX9LMSrOZ v0JNJ0tuUQkMawvUJvVeKLhb3Y8leoFVwJwmSGB74fdFpthv6iwEPSQiZEez5ZZ85Q/6 G+MUG2+f5aDmGCJH8xDzZtAKg80VJ5R73TEBRCNN6LRVXiTi6/HdL7bb5pWZKKDW1qHv wfIA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyCuPv/+EyF0tOlMinmZZahNCwyEQrpUIJbtEOJFfAY/8ETp0qD qnwaH6Kf2Pu0DYmaoRFaj6TAuY90QUjAytrJTifehgyxQ+UJ8FT8+ucOGN85F8gW1DpuaK/OKMl UwalKUcr0eWrvYQ6YQhWlTFyqWWxsJe1eY64uBA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFan6/XxQyNlLWnyG6CXofuKk3DUpnfBzuqrx1IEI7XIK3W0Sk1fyFEk80j4fb8R1uTNViEWWiQlw8LA21ZuoA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a20:96c6:b0:1b2:af7b:3951 with SMTP id adf61e73a8af0-1b2f9ccb0cdmr8998468637.59.1718073917193; Mon, 10 Jun 2024 19:45:17 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2024 20:45:06 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Start week from Monday in cal(1) To: justsomelessons Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000885a72061a94414c" X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com:s=20230601]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bsdimp.com]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::42a:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4VytM449jFz4t4y --000000000000885a72061a94414c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jun 9, 2024 at 10:25=E2=80=AFAM justsomelessons wrote: > Hello! > > As you can find, FreeBSD cal(1) man page says that > "It is not possible to display Monday as the first day of the week with > cal". > > But daily it is more comfortable if weeks start from Monday. > I know that there is ncal (vertical) mode which always starts from Monday= , > but any other calendar in the world (software or that on the wall) is > horizontal, > so ncal is uncomfortable too. > So I've made a simple patch that adds -M option to cal(1) to start > week from Monday: > https://codeberg.org/vall/stuff/src/branch/main/ncalfixed These look quite interesting. I've not had a chance to test them, but the code changes look good, and not invasive. Is there a chance you'd be able to submit them via a github pull request against https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src? That would be the best way currently to make sure this doesn't get lost and will make its way into the tree, or at least get feedback about what's needed to do so... Warner By the way, Debian also has set of patches that adds such option: > https://salsa.debian.org/meskes/bsdmainutils/-/tree/master/debian/patches > > Can I ask if such an option can be added to the FreeBSD base? > It's highly appreciative if my tiny patches with or without > modifications can be helpful. > Or are there historical or some other reasons for nonpossibility to > start weeks from Monday? > > Thank you! > ----- > Best regards, > Valentine Astakhov. > > --000000000000885a72061a94414c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sun, Jun 9, 2024 at 10:25=E2=80=AF= AM justsomelessons <justsom= elessons@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello!

As you can find, FreeBSD cal(1) man page says that
"It is not possible to display Monday as the first day of the week wit= h cal".

But daily it is more comfortable if weeks start from Monday.
I know that there is ncal (vertical) mode which always starts from Monday,<= br> but any other calendar in the world (software or that on the wall) is
horizontal,
so ncal is uncomfortable too.
So I've made a simple patch that adds -M option to cal(1) to start
week from Monday:
https://codeberg.org/vall/stuff/src/branc= h/main/ncalfixed

These look quite inter= esting. I've not had a chance to test them, but
the code chan= ges look good, and not invasive.

Is there a chance= you'd be able to submit them via a github pull request against https://github.com/freebsd/free= bsd-src? That would be the best way currently to make sure this doesn&#= 39;t get lost and will make its way into the tree, or at least get feedback= about what's needed to do so...

Warner
<= div>
By the way, Debian also has set of patches that adds such option:
https://salsa.debian.org/me= skes/bsdmainutils/-/tree/master/debian/patches

Can I ask if such an option can be added to the FreeBSD base?
It's highly appreciative if my tiny patches with or without
modifications can be helpful.
Or are there historical or some other reasons for nonpossibility to
start weeks from Monday?

Thank you!
-----
Best regards,
Valentine Astakhov.

--000000000000885a72061a94414c-- From nobody Tue Jun 11 20:23:55 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4VzKqn6XHfz5N967 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 2024 20:23:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from justsomelessons@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yw1-x1129.google.com (mail-yw1-x1129.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1129]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4VzKqn19B1z4Qyv for ; Tue, 11 Jun 2024 20:23:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from justsomelessons@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-yw1-x1129.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-62cddff7f20so43688557b3.3 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 2024 13:23:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1718137396; x=1718742196; darn=freebsd.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=gY1Y8vhREUPE7V7TqfUzxK9Xsa+hQoZbS5Bi2q/+gRs=; b=UBmKcaziTTHpetPmPF3yJsy5a66Ss8SCpRbj0+IMbDSXXlIoUiw7sOsYedOr691NKE GcgFa11IQtrhjG+SrgWYMLrDncDyAfWXV6ln1BROPVYPAGX45KehYvyNlSm/0ZnzWOgJ AuodLCY+UCjUGilXkjaf5UuBdjblxD65jaJ9VB0O77thOkfNatL70IfEm/RkjkUFFLST LGplGOpXlFq31c89Y5zD6+QHvxpd75U2qsiHeCbGZA1xLdDos/K/KDFCFQJUT6Gu0o8D HhUi2j4pXt1a8v8bbt3h0h6c6h9kuk4UU6uuL7LBO2xT+GcxQwXWx4gK2q/hWKmajEoF lhwQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1718137396; x=1718742196; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=gY1Y8vhREUPE7V7TqfUzxK9Xsa+hQoZbS5Bi2q/+gRs=; b=FJJk6f5cIQOWgUzH3BtCk7va3PlQWM9dsWeqnXJG7wmDarHnDPcVrLmGyudOpFg3fc sn+hS1fk4h342bk1FuB2A9th000bv/9ZBb5R8H0fDIWRTUqHc45EJvEhcpQhaYayMBIT aWjzRmr6Fmp+9utTGtY6FIs6ZM81kWrNokIRT9AsghsvSjhLBpzKwASCCSLoJtvuJqF1 c0gPtPX7vcw7+MzlBwqtCR9vO400Iceeprd1PQmPOSaCtdBvMqgiQwypXApfnK+Uxvtn rAGYh5U8Kifmt8oK1v46fNt/kpBwjWXv0YVD2W7+KGsb0fAV/vPpOFujgEBxAVSCbK27 SPBQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yyv/MCGFw2g+tjZocI50uHzEeXU+TtT8EHFoYby3b5YCt3HAgZs t/16v63Nn2fU9ymKMpVYL+pO7hjOx7FL6QxkUvarRWj2tu3VkMDMietZZKeGGLtUsAmEZFGyQVC ofwJEdx4wRDcycW/8MVL2wlIg8Yd94A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHLlINpLPncd9S5pGRjIWmhDa4jTTZ/yfP6OnIpLojZT8p6iOpl2avKBKEQR3iNvw4K3HF/ZGIq0Io+FSHguxA= X-Received: by 2002:a0d:ea92:0:b0:627:a7ad:ba64 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-62cd568c09dmr126815227b3.49.1718137396083; Tue, 11 Jun 2024 13:23:16 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: justsomelessons Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2024 23:23:55 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Start week from Monday in cal(1) To: imp@bsdimp.com Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4VzKqn19B1z4Qyv Thank you! I'll try to make a pull request. Warner Losh : > > These look quite interesting. I've not had a chance to test them, but > the code changes look good, and not invasive. > > Is there a chance you'd be able to submit them via a github pull request = against https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src? That would be the best way = currently to make sure this doesn't get lost and will make its way into the= tree, or at least get feedback about what's needed to do so... > > Warner > From nobody Tue Jun 11 21:05:59 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4VzLnJ6474z5N0nd for ; Tue, 11 Jun 2024 21:06:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-pj1-x1035.google.com (mail-pj1-x1035.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1035]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4VzLnJ3QWyz4W3Q for ; Tue, 11 Jun 2024 21:06:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-pj1-x1035.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2c2dee9d9cfso2926896a91.3 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 2024 14:06:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1718139971; x=1718744771; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=5wP+oXTO9aGXYZLikBchN+v7kiGFccWJxVoMsr+hkkQ=; b=JF/auc0G5CWZEITxChTwS6XNagH3D8S2hOIRZGB5WAIQlnw03JhJ9wfP33sW+kimBN 4CQh+sK4z5PSgHTK/29krSgmm4dWsZ/Bicn/bZc5gIlqpNLAa9FGf+LEn74kosxWY00Y MrLfhynNSviVBIVTnMZ8X8SVRqrc6RGCv0clukdVfXuI4qTmkY902JMJZvUMhLCH3/AC 2i/KopXH0aSz6uHbaVub9VCO4ZvQuUMtSY/9nQgm3XsVqtzuabd75uVScuL/hBHRu084 jPD31MONc6aQRrMbWgLHAhaGstJWXSYJ4BiJSdAuAzvmdDEtGTdxs6TYLg28Jqgn5EdT 40CQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1718139971; x=1718744771; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=5wP+oXTO9aGXYZLikBchN+v7kiGFccWJxVoMsr+hkkQ=; b=kJbN+noMV6glEiQqd9XzGTs6Gn9vzV7/w9bnYnZJ71/oRpo1qqrFH/iN0TmeIWtCAP 8BXxB2ZfUZK78hpdJRKlb2slxDYa5c430qNA/VQUN2J3yB8DAD5WrMalttMYF0kguXt5 ofPcESlQ/1WuIUY1epq5cRBa7Y3fXptA2GGYIV88HH45he78SN4vkFWGA1l7GWRNeULI 2p0s2Tj9OxMlyGloF2SnLTSAjZNh+zFq3b2F82zRgD7UELzu48sI52tWET1jCaMlx0uq aAG0RD7qOIaYsyOYgo/x62oI+PUYh5e6t0YocBSFeq7YlYETTo00zON+oxsmOgXqoYfa h5Tw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yy92ntO6Y4OfCW7tBxree0qy9fjlXXSwdtOBOoZ9w5Ra5d9uJEb +wySMIgV9QzDo85eMD+MzpwoCOLYFaHsR54i6mur9xXUTVjuZ/tltIDrC34N7iKBwU4rgNf5E6Q jAe1KqKhCoDbU1tctD/W5bWncOyklqglj3JZSUg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGL++M+KiQ97rvh1M+YY3gEM8LlPuGqU3XOJV86n7N7AcZMpfR6bz7AuCI5ROhTXg/DbsjIJcQ2d3eub8pX/FA= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:fb48:b0:2c2:8d49:5e6c with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2c4a760a301mr75933a91.7.1718139970890; Tue, 11 Jun 2024 14:06:10 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2024 15:05:59 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Start week from Monday in cal(1) To: justsomelessons Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a3c9c1061aa3a2a7" X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4VzLnJ3QWyz4W3Q --000000000000a3c9c1061aa3a2a7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Great! Please let me know if you hit any snags. Warner On Tue, Jun 11, 2024 at 2:23=E2=80=AFPM justsomelessons wrote: > Thank you! > I'll try to make a pull request. > > Warner Losh : > > > > These look quite interesting. I've not had a chance to test them, but > > the code changes look good, and not invasive. > > > > Is there a chance you'd be able to submit them via a github pull reques= t > against https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src? That would be the best > way currently to make sure this doesn't get lost and will make its way in= to > the tree, or at least get feedback about what's needed to do so... > > > > Warner > > > --000000000000a3c9c1061aa3a2a7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Great!

Please let me know if you hit an= y snags.

Warner

On Tue, Jun 11, 2024 at 2:23= =E2=80=AFPM justsomelessons <justsomelessons@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you!
I'll try to make a pull request.

Warner Losh <imp@bsd= imp.com>:
>
> These look quite interesting. I've not had a chance to test them, = but
> the code changes look good, and not invasive.
>
> Is there a chance you'd be able to submit them via a github pull r= equest against https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src? Tha= t would be the best way currently to make sure this doesn't get lost an= d will make its way into the tree, or at least get feedback about what'= s needed to do so...
>
> Warner
>
--000000000000a3c9c1061aa3a2a7-- From nobody Wed Jun 12 01:41:31 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4VzSv15HkKz5NR6k for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 01:41:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from leres@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4VzSv12xNGz4sVn for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 01:41:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from leres@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1718156493; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding; bh=kT67BXG5wNhUZPiD30aistPw9tIOwvHHuTka6MzBYw0=; b=URH3GnBUJKRWMBXsIoB6IARWVVCt9E859xRdQJuCbvhbr976F/wekVDEFWAtZzYV4cw6kC Ejf1v5bm44gi1iT8K+D0FWCc/z7ayJgxGp8XjvkO2BzZ81X+tRPNuHXU5TD/42oCCvc7Bv p8pFO2y3c8nC3xh0XEyE85BFjCWaNQWHTUDu/sZL0O9O0vBMArL74jIO3uN9ZmpQCLWvtV P343TLCS7nZ+HsGhwFLvfVnXNSaauEpyqzwHf+2QQ0itqgldLZ09TzcEIesJ2TzsWm5SHJ +VnjfG/jf65jG19rtBXYxpdi84NoQCPWJtfS9w6Sw9FVrpG8pcPw6exzLixm5w== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1718156493; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=PCsUiRdUi5lkX9Rg/hZJCC2WmfCgP7wddstFjykoJCW//AxIk9tbi4V6MtCw/ehlEbgRt9 tGJsTrMShVACF1ofBgyoQbu5LZZUfI0/woR/LyAFqO/3ZammMann2N69mSPGjb/7nKxbuz IgLXYWLDmlEq6xO1Vybi0pII6aI2A4BRSTjmSNlprwCSSYVoMZB6y/D4DfFzFQGY4+I4gB Q8k+8yyIHso61fnEYPc5UNdN4L4fFKz/TQsSVK86Y8WneRdaaU3eHVW5isy4Bt3fEvGd8F YtK8JFW5qyaE6K+McUuzsafFg63cgDrXGpX5LqJmyXAL5ozCwpMk8KQEUAf2jg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1718156493; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding; bh=kT67BXG5wNhUZPiD30aistPw9tIOwvHHuTka6MzBYw0=; b=j1mzr1rKtXEXF/oOSpGjfW1DLI27LnFgpr+Cgtpu4sDnkpLbiX0/WLrIPCOEyDJt9jRZSI uwfMqdfEc+EiGgAMXS2BbHLju4IWVmisoLJma99Zxa+bUaURbBhexTUK1Qx1SE7h/UI2yp pebRJkAHpCExrQWPoYofGOubH3bPFNss4pLL69pSkNzNf8wb3XRfUWBSkfXXfWrylnkb92 eQgdRSeYgW/c/q6oTXlUvKxI4mmVMo7kLo00PzNIOmiX4v4R7arjnB+4OkyN1eK0lLT/QM oQBYohiOg367fuCrlq+pKZkdaKKB7ulUL5f+3/416O4dwogBV6n5k07fGWUucQ== Received: from [IPV6:fd:1965::2] (unknown [IPv6:2600:1700:ab1b:6800:2e0:edff:fece:8f27]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: leres) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4VzSv11RRTzdk1 for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 01:41:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from leres@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <1b40c5a6-632f-4b60-8a0d-4c06a07a5187@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2024 18:41:31 -0700 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird From: Craig Leres Content-Language: en-US To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD 14 vs nvme gpart partitions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just upgraded an intel nuc from 13.3 to 14.1 and I don't have swap any more. The root filesystem is a single nvme and see now that nvd was renamed nda but I no longer have the gpart partition entries in /dev. Earlier I upgraded a system with a 2 nvme mirror and that system still has the gpart swap partition (i.e. nda0p2). I guess I don't understand why the nuc doesn't. Poking around I see /dev/diskid/DISK-S5P2NU0W137782Zp2 but I'd prefer to use /dev/nda0p2?!?! Craig tiny 61 # swapinfo Device 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity tiny 62 # fgrep sw /etc/fstab /dev/nda0p2 none swap sw 0 0 tiny 63 # ls -l /dev | egrep 'nvd|nda' crw-r----- 1 root operator 0x51 Jun 11 17:53 nda0 lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 4 Jun 11 17:53 nvd0 -> nda0 tiny 64 # gpart show => 40 1953525088 diskid/DISK-S5P2NU0W137782Z GPT (932G) 40 1024 1 freebsd-boot (512K) 1064 984 - free - (492K) 2048 67108864 2 freebsd-swap (32G) 67110912 1886412800 3 freebsd-zfs (900G) 1953523712 1416 - free - (708K) => 40 3907029088 diskid/DISK-ZDZ9EHYQ GPT (1.8T) 40 2008 - free - (1.0M) 2048 3907026944 1 freebsd-zfs (1.8T) 3907028992 136 - free - (68K) From nobody Wed Jun 12 02:40:14 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4VzVBm4drhz5NWNY for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 02:40:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from leres@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4VzVBm2dfkz40VW for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 02:40:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from leres@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1718160016; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=IUaYRrUYefoFVwqpukp2YCG5yimfPKN+IDG/A8p1htE=; b=QGMwDx5WwnTLsQgEMX3KHI1sNXb6EsQ3ktvsieLH6ZXQdwruHbqPxpLVToV6ZWZ7ktd8W1 5bKXA6gVHV5TCpz1xNAV9p0/aaEDp07Z6JlZl6twynWR+fUf+qmp9En1HnWDg4FRnCJWTz P7JmNXlaFF79DUBCgObwT9fa0Tm8pL6dzc9lg2MwZad2SbHU1hR1wu0iAJhMUDzqHejTbX rLMLYGaD1FaSNM3OUoJmvCN7il7ShVeeA/TGH4DN2U8BFMRQPAdoQmSlNaj4ooBZOJzU5B 3WQcByme4Ha2649FSIwz/x+WQWGgdtDdUdb6DzmuvFKu4T26EDde+MeDtLxxpg== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1718160016; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=qp/9QvccF+JBJNopUbm2cuCd7Cw9mRJc2Pq47hGtDVHc4uOS4BTNaQ0F9maR2xRP43yp9Q 88DR1/FKX4NCcWcnZt+Lc4u1uTu5ISABvopVC52Wy+tZJB5Y/2ilPiq30MjhWFCtXOD5od anWyp1i5CpaBjX/Oa2rD3Wae0atziA/F8PTyxKO03IWeARJyWIVniM1wGO0h0kxqfDTN+z FdVF2oW4IQLluKsDsKnhyeKoDJOpeTrBEMLQEYbE5nltkQegefNn+cdwIPEKAsoBj6WZdi Flxf0as/yZdxBlgaa3HutkT7Y7ZJR7Ng59wlO7B4J+ssZbUnVQ84GyURpE+lHw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1718160016; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=IUaYRrUYefoFVwqpukp2YCG5yimfPKN+IDG/A8p1htE=; b=CYZYT3gfaFlMYe+yxwpXgvEhRZEXqyBd7B3e1RjgcnR7Rw/F5MwIewSnCKN4iB6r+Wizfp KWvbYAu6d3B7HnN3q3OZ1uREjXtHcKZGshTCySmJA2vLzPoEdX6OhuZGWYzt2fBVhuobaG p95SWqJUhaKDTzt7LSjib9bHO9G7PfxDdL+Wh4uSMMcYK5mE5xJ+0EMkoP6JYse5+h5zAe X/VX+5kkyvS2z8R0IXrIvb3VO93eZRSurnA36zory1bUckk1QMSuZemdu2dVBPsE2PZKvA 6jxDUVxdf+C1c50i0s24DSeiFDL51C9YnB0Cjcj+5yb7rm8SL9XF1CYo8YVIcQ== Received: from [IPV6:fd:1965::2] (unknown [IPv6:2600:1700:ab1b:6800:2e0:edff:fece:8f27]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: leres) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4VzVBm0zCbzhNq for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 02:40:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from leres@freebsd.org) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2024 19:40:14 -0700 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: FreeBSD 14 vs nvme gpart partitions From: Craig Leres To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <1b40c5a6-632f-4b60-8a0d-4c06a07a5187@freebsd.org> Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: <1b40c5a6-632f-4b60-8a0d-4c06a07a5187@freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 6/11/24 18:41, Craig Leres wrote: > I just upgraded an intel nuc from 13.3 to 14.1 and I don't have swap any > more. The root filesystem is a single nvme and see now that nvd was > renamed nda but I no longer have the gpart partition entries in /dev. > > Earlier I upgraded a system with a 2 nvme mirror and that system still > has the gpart swap partition (i.e. nda0p2). I guess I don't understand > why the nuc doesn't. Poking around I see > /dev/diskid/DISK-S5P2NU0W137782Zp2 but I'd prefer to use /dev/nda0p2?!?! D'oh! I found some things to put into loader.conf to solve my issues: kern.geom.label.disk_ident.enable="0" kern.geom.label.gptid.enable="0" Apparently I needed this way back when I built my first poudriere build server. I still don't understand why the os upgrade switched modes but I guess at this point I sorta don't care. Sorry for the noise. Craig tiny 6 # swapinfo Device 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity /dev/nda0p2 33554432 0 33554432 0% From nobody Wed Jun 12 16:22:32 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4VzrRq44H6z5N1YT for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 16:22:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-f54.google.com (mail-io1-f54.google.com [209.85.166.54]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4VzrRp4HTZz4drD for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 16:22:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed), No valid DKIM" header.from=freebsd.org (policy=none); spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of carpeddiem@gmail.com designates 209.85.166.54 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=carpeddiem@gmail.com Received: by mail-io1-f54.google.com with SMTP id ca18e2360f4ac-7e25bf84b58so280753939f.0 for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 09:22:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1718209364; x=1718814164; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:mime-version:x-gm-message-state :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=DgAa3QWmPHCuz9VSaq6cbulo86JWfExmIBotpHA6fvQ=; b=Jx5kMfo1EctZ728tCf0isfeDs6Ga7Y9m1nuDh5raUR1vs7QmXR+VTRSZtUDNlPQIJ8 XRqhHGsXfRp9uiTcmXAFjBE8S4Mvjr2ie7i3Vn5rBDKr2tSHaSnP6nG3pYpZEWrTYhfq b6y39EFh2TJVK1wk9CKDhfTEeKj7pNUMeoabb3SIiPgsf+gYuY6KbNssKMuTpe6/SlRk gkAs7wfhCgKsYwq/VGWVk6Q/kMIRUk9EqV7P/iUzIeB/SNRRreVEISnIslJUWGLOKJy7 m65M0WmoJlSjmUZOe0rbvBDQDrRBS0uZgro5W6RWfTCiEM8o/KXQFY3OpKu+KfX68KUp CYsg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yw21Cs/3p51MNRse6dGV3w0syijswNqSgQJDA1c7eE5UI7iyeS1 5yHyExPftmaPQ/Kjqmvo1FDYeqttoKKHJsVYZ7Xxt+AJW3jgCsrP80JW7+BpIQD6J2DaSBw3Ufm jFIMo9uxHAZPkxHOiHEecBJ3UX5v9QKp+ X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGqShjkOb4j3XTeW6GzBOl/U7argONkhn5Uk3tNPrZPrLk5sBWkbeIqS4kVgDV/zcRGehWxZ5zulF8jbLpje1w= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:6424:b0:7eb:7089:dfdd with SMTP id ca18e2360f4ac-7ebcd15189emr291351639f.15.1718209364310; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 09:22:44 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Ed Maste Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2024 12:22:32 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Removing "CMOS clock set to UTC" question To: FreeBSD Hackers Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.90 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[emaste@freebsd.org,carpeddiem@gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[freebsd.org : SPF not aligned (relaxed), No valid DKIM,none]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[carpeddiem]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[emaste@freebsd.org,carpeddiem@gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[209.85.166.54:from]; TO_DOM_EQ_FROM_DOM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[209.85.166.54:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4VzrRp4HTZz4drD Our installer asks (via tzsetup): > Is this machine's CMOS clock set to UTC? If it is set to local time, > or you don't know, please choose NO here! I've heard many reports of new users being confused by this question when installing FreeBSD for the first time. I don't think it provides much value; it is a minor convenience for dual-booting with Windows but imposes a cost on everyone installing FreeBSD. It is trivial to configure the system to use local time in the system's real-time clock by creating /etc/wall_cmos_clock. Other operating systems do not ask, they just default to local time (Windows) or UTC (everyone else). I've proposed removing the question from bsdinstall in https://reviews.freebsd.org/D45569. From nobody Wed Jun 12 17:07:07 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4VzsRJ2krrz5N5Ky for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 17:07:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from x9k@charlie.emu.st) Received: from f3.bushwire.net (f3.emu.st [IPv6:2403:580c:e522:0:203:0:120:11]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4VzsRD5kQFz4nrh for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 17:07:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from x9k@charlie.emu.st) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=emu.st header.s=2019 header.b=RDDdmXwr; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of x9k@charlie.emu.st designates 2403:580c:e522:0:203:0:120:11 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=x9k@charlie.emu.st Received: by f3.bushwire.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id D2CAB4E627; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 03:07:07 +1000 (AEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/simple; d=emu.st; s=2019; t=1718212027; bh=0eji92BvRDY/7GnqueFxRT8JRYc=; h=Comments:Received:From:Comments:Message-ID:Content-Type: References:Mime-Version:Content-Disposition:In-Reply-To:Date:To: Subject; b=RDDdmXwrNGO4U/QmWBuqbAiYOtWjXrD0FPZ31+JqZ5Vi9D+TMQlbhRoYNN6ZqomI/ bzcX/LAM4BTS7iDyyfyOTkTaqNLRSXkbZnIPzAEGUzWX6y2H/WKtIR8OiZORtYbfx7 MKXmWZRS0ldncRhdONFupjs6SHHeCNmyX1eayiGo=eayiGo= Comments: QMDA 0.3a Received: (qmail 3697 invoked by uid 1001); 12 Jun 2024 17:07:07 -0000 From: "Mark Delany" Comments: QMDASubmit submit() 0.2.0-final Message-ID: <0.2.0-final-1718212027.814-0x75c1f0@qmda.emu.st> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 References: List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2024 17:07:07 +0000 To: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Removing "CMOS clock set to UTC" question X-Spamd-Bar: / X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.66 / 15.00]; R_DKIM_REJECT(1.00)[emu.st:s=2019]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.982]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.85)[-0.848]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.23)[-0.233]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2403:580c:e522::0/48]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.10)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:4764, ipnet:2403:5800::/27, country:AU]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROMTLD(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[emu.st]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[emu.st:-] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4VzsRD5kQFz4nrh On 12Jun24, Ed Maste apparently wrote: > Our installer asks (via tzsetup): > > > Is this machine's CMOS clock set to UTC? If it is set to local time, > > or you don't know, please choose NO here! > > I've heard many reports of new users being confused by this question And experienced users too! I've been installing FBSD and various other OSes for decades and whenever I see that question invariable: a) I have no clue as to what the machine's CMOS clock is set to in the first instance b) I do not want the hassle of stopping the install to gain access to some obscure BIOS screen that might or might not give me the answer. c) I have no clue as to the implications of answering this question one way or the other. d) I don't know whether it's a good idea or not to change the CMOS clock to UTC if it's not the case. Is it? e) I don't think I've ever seen a similar question asked by any other OS install. At the very least the message should indicate what happens if you get the answer wrong. Does the system fail to install, does the clock run backwards, will my dog stop barking? What? Mark. From nobody Wed Jun 12 17:36:28 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Vzt4x0LFRz5N78F for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 17:36:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from garga@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Vzt4w6y43z4sTL; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 17:36:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from garga@FreeBSD.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1718213793; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:autocrypt:autocrypt; 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keydata= xsBNBGStavwBCACjNlp/9+Y+VFe9ieR2h/WWbdvjz4Mb2z/f22bGoaskzCfvVNbo/v3i34I9 H6OdgZkGqheQEAD2jNfRbmPr4z40xDMUpYGLds+1Mvg7G3Hms3j5Ef8KaLSWUNWIfwKdfSVR Qs35ccSJxAdRW5YdI6J3xZgika+3Bc4eJ05YE/nWW+PNTYevt5rqD50N3zybVYIcLoqVPpBi AZE/sf5SLiLACIJb1t/s4x+pi8vgWevxVVT9u8V1f8zYErmHSLSqjxii0B3eRZphX9NCJOv9 +tfFZhnENInhn9gT7H4e2YumUltEy3jacONHJF3CC1pvvWEa6lEyypclMOkHQwNON7DLABEB AAHNLFJlbmF0byBCb3RlbGhvIChGcmVlQlNEKSA8Z2FyZ2FARnJlZUJTRC5vcmc+wsCXBBMB CgBBAhsDBQkFo5qABQsJCAcDBRUKCQgLBRYDAgEAAh4FAheAFiEERL7Dxegbnh7xTiQ5Ob6P xxJcZXoFAmSta78CGQEACgkQOb6PxxJcZXrYlggAgaZmr6c1yIWzN8VksHrHpwt/uxONEP+h ljy3yfrMsgfS5wx5Uzgfih1xYZUFC6jiI63CetqBqJpp3g1klRS1UWYKx2NeXphDMYZEdPm/ a6sXh4bKZbk6IE8Yn0/YiRT57d9DtbvswC7Gn7Igj/MSbhl49TvTGyvuB6juaffVoYZViomx 5zMoee8Ml2o2qj3MrCJ+/K8GU54RlpOGqGRsqdwVdr9XEWub6fF2YFwR46cjmbiU3P5urFHH nkJlBGPIwKxHimTW0lZsdx9aCKRDd/D80/WOEzXmk3k8B9lv/GsvOluHmveLhJG1R1tIJ31I f2q8dfTvqsQXnu8CcWRcgc7ATQRkrWr8AQgA1DufoxScA+CWQbUR6zExIu8wXQKrhuRt4DG2 BgynT7EMUvEBadcbQRZXsBpemNfncc9Axyut/+rWiyKJf9BLQuo/9QYmSRvW1U6+0LJUYmdg kMyBeYaPk+vnssv/u9jLuvV7FVgyE0yk1iaWIKOVDD+XrQCOvGw9uSceBrQyCyo3A/eRM/+p vnDCaywR63PKE+3axk6lfNdGK3TnaWmS30/ZDCZlNsXuqprqR4JdT5wXids5o36dsuJ5EZ20 s5hNMD34s4Yr1Y1R9elH6qBsFCpozs0+jwrArxq+UJJCR6hH5W8ZEwJtRC8tzR8mRE1WywzX BXYj0YhfGztQIxZckQARAQABwsB8BBgBCgAmFiEERL7Dxegbnh7xTiQ5Ob6PxxJcZXoFAmSt avwCGwwFCQWjmoAACgkQOb6PxxJcZXr1vgf/SKXhoZcUU5I7TqcbHg0lJz9tICTupCGHWr/s SQgjh9oEM5j1wqW7FlCGP90Tl9K0g3ow9YdbhU7VK470o6pymX9V9eLHzGgkZO/KMEtGBeK1 u+5ePjCJ/MK5B21KODLSU7WrIL1VN5ceXfQPLYt02LMLtPri+oduHD6RNBeA7US1DUzleq5F 9NHGbvV2U7BdDUezpiO8NaFjFZVB11I5d99FxUM5XGVstI3VhsRKZxjY0KnqJzaQgTFsPGmv AUfZVIN1pXgXiedhPXpr8+Y64jP+pHVwpVmh1zYWL6+q3kqFOUVP6c5iiMeoEXZvgJz7x/AC ek3X5gvu8Hpcv+MZIg== In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 12/06/24 13:22, Ed Maste wrote: > Our installer asks (via tzsetup): > >> Is this machine's CMOS clock set to UTC? If it is set to local time, >> or you don't know, please choose NO here! > > I've heard many reports of new users being confused by this question > when installing FreeBSD for the first time. I don't think it provides > much value; it is a minor convenience for dual-booting with Windows > but imposes a cost on everyone installing FreeBSD. It is trivial to > configure the system to use local time in the system's real-time clock > by creating /etc/wall_cmos_clock. Other operating systems do not ask, > they just default to local time (Windows) or UTC (everyone else). > > I've proposed removing the question from bsdinstall in > https://reviews.freebsd.org/D45569. +1 for this removal -- Renato Botelho From nobody Wed Jun 12 18:14:08 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Vztwb2cjdz5NBSR for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 18:14:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mureninc@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yw1-f175.google.com (mail-yw1-f175.google.com [209.85.128.175]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Vztwb0zq3z4yp1; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 18:14:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mureninc@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-yw1-f175.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-627efad69b4so1441567b3.3; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 11:14:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1718216062; x=1718820862; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=6q4hikVgZLIoagGU+MEQr3db4PWIsjFte6Uyuf2NJME=; b=vPs1cb/9EJ3gjyRQfDVqKztmZmiSzV8F0LW8LlsnKb5YJc1vrhjR9e2ivz5saKSmk1 K7DhhIts7AsPI7DM9+Eop+svc7DcfBmpgkLlaTWHfFxX4MWd+WMbzv/I0V9TF4Qh7u24 aEfJJMLeDpQduOe6PoNS5Wq4mDkUsDCE7kUgPSMe4pcA69YH8QbughCOmomZbKtLNG16 VLGGJUN1gKCYxvkonTS4TVcUL4fkyxO0g6rYT1UndQG0Hv/Hk+12RGpZcg7jD4xNeWMR vKlVREEudfwD/OxUh3Ut8Iswj5xOxdga/lSZYdrydCyVIyNL+igb7Pdpa62UZTOQT1zL sTFA== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCUdToBsq2kpWkfnd16qvmp9sF4EMY8wMIm9ejV9oGLC9BTNK1Tc5TtiV+6Gky89801YAkmFiEppr9ih4JXYXOqUvFk= X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxCKaj4eT22qjxu5Xjo95vCyhiAz3U6MYN5+db2JxpscB15GTM+ PAhk+/bniCGuKw+qEzFuPsVNIrzYzEzOdYda49E9fMd9dhuBFO2uc17cXuCuEEbvkeH8UR6LwHP +pafglL3hIvGRYsSsxZBSsoF3BqZafQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IE6P65nnZXwh/Eox2vuAoCbXLLXEFZS9Gonx3fpU71mZ6uWLvGygwlTbEmozJex1RCGwPE9EjrmoTAOCHz9NV8= X-Received: by 2002:a0d:e8c5:0:b0:630:2749:2f4d with SMTP id 00721157ae682-63027493023mr18260097b3.36.1718216062098; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 11:14:22 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: "Constantine A. Murenin" Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2024 13:14:08 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Removing "CMOS clock set to UTC" question To: Ed Maste Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , Constantine Murenin Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Vztwb0zq3z4yp1 On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 at 11:23, Ed Maste wrote: > > Our installer asks (via tzsetup): > > > Is this machine's CMOS clock set to UTC? If it is set to local time, > > or you don't know, please choose NO here! > > I've heard many reports of new users being confused by this question > when installing FreeBSD for the first time. I don't think it provides > much value; it is a minor convenience for dual-booting with Windows > but imposes a cost on everyone installing FreeBSD. It is trivial to > configure the system to use local time in the system's real-time clock > by creating /etc/wall_cmos_clock. Other operating systems do not ask, > they just default to local time (Windows) or UTC (everyone else). > > I've proposed removing the question from bsdinstall in > https://reviews.freebsd.org/D45569. Perhaps the confusion arises from the implied default being "NO" instead of a "YES"? In a way, the proposed patch actually both changes the default and removes the question. Which may end up being more confusing unless expressly advertised as such. If the intention is to simply change the implied default, maybe that's exactly what should be done instead? E.g., move the "don't know" category into a "YES" suggestion. C. From nobody Wed Jun 12 19:07:44 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Vzw6M4Q1pz5NGxY for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 19:07:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsd-lists@bsdforge.com) Received: from udns.ultimatedns.net (udns.ultimatedns.net [24.113.41.81]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "ultimatedns.net", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Vzw6M1SJwz54hJ for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 19:07:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsd-lists@bsdforge.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from ultimatedns.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by udns.ultimatedns.net (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTP id 45CJ7j88081199; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 12:07:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsd-lists@bsdforge.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=ultimatedns.net; s=mx99; t=1718219271; x=1718219871; r=y; bh=3pHSYYXohB1vwxoTCTbSh2DfEaUHVHt7ydHpOqp3m/c=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=mvUCCBSD+vetRgiNVcwRRlcvv0Zc+pZU/6fYRQL2BjtkZab4oBNodyTrhkIXj7rPB WmQO2L9fbp04iwzfPsPrXRYCbldIB6YpR8yk/ArL+0SgcLecZ0ouClJ8WiTn8e8Czt zOhV+RxQbA+eeLsN7Y8Ir1X20EDGZnmpejdEIRyElWGwA0X5tyF7nFk7hn3zJWlisV oQdlbKHZOteLFKojIMCDKASCmw4FTF8uS6LxUhZy0yJsuW2e/DmivzsXpO+Jr8fmvS bKo308I/EKQwAS+SgA0XbuDYJZVT684kCw1izXH2RRIYe0l91LJveON8Y+QchQ0b0i SfjLW/sSjKJoQ== List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2024 12:07:44 -0700 From: Chris To: Mark Delany Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Removing "CMOS clock set to UTC" question In-Reply-To: <0.2.0-final-1718212027.814-0x75c1f0@qmda.emu.st> References: <0.2.0-final-1718212027.814-0x75c1f0@qmda.emu.st> User-Agent: UDNSMS/17.0 Message-ID: <26eaa45fec5b95b6a00948d45aaea927@bsdforge.com> X-Sender: bsd-lists@bsdforge.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11404, ipnet:24.113.0.0/16, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Vzw6M1SJwz54hJ On 2024-06-12 10:07, Mark Delany wrote: > On 12Jun24, Ed Maste apparently wrote: >> Our installer asks (via tzsetup): >> >> > Is this machine's CMOS clock set to UTC? If it is set to local time, >> > or you don't know, please choose NO here! >> >> I've heard many reports of new users being confused by this question > > And experienced users too! > > I've been installing FBSD and various other OSes for decades and whenever I > see that > question invariable: > > a) I have no clue as to what the machine's CMOS clock is set to in the > first instance > > b) I do not want the hassle of stopping the install to gain access to some > obscure BIOS > screen that might or might not give me the answer. > > c) I have no clue as to the implications of answering this question one > way or the > other. > > d) I don't know whether it's a good idea or not to change the CMOS clock > to UTC if it's > not the case. Is it? > > e) I don't think I've ever seen a similar question asked by any other OS > install. > > At the very least the message should indicate what happens if you get the > answer > wrong. Does the system fail to install, does the clock run backwards, will > my dog stop > barking? What? "If you are unsure, or don't know the answer here. Select NO" Seems intuitive enough. IOW no harm done here, if you choose NO (selects localtime). :) Personally, I don't have a strong BIAS here, except that it's always been this way, and I don't have to remember to set it post installation. So it seems "convenient". > > > Mark. --Chris From nobody Wed Jun 12 19:30:45 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Vzwcz363Sz5NK6w for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 19:30:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-pj1-x102b.google.com (mail-pj1-x102b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Vzwcy5n82z41lV for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 19:30:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com header.s=20230601 header.b=z+9kSFal; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wlosh@bsdimp.com has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::102b) smtp.mailfrom=wlosh@bsdimp.com Received: by mail-pj1-x102b.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2c1a4192d55so138159a91.2 for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 12:30:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1718220657; x=1718825457; darn=freebsd.org; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject :date:message-id:reply-to; bh=apqmzHiIDCQSGxVHfLfk+dxrktIIVA9Nhx3hHvtg7dQ=; b=z+9kSFalyfSuIIfluf1NN4GE6zH+N6xcoAP0T/2gr3hbJDhO+3AnLjhRqcf4jjfm9b djO4eufpnYgDICs1QjoFtqu/FsfxgHOqP7Bh5C7ACcAhqg41+4MG/GMHFIjZk6gjNITR NVmCXB/3ufxuhj8tDmVI4Pxq0PmIDT7jHj4Yi2u1cysUsVa4wcU5/6NBSxIJRlSCzbFf F4wtXCksMKfGKccgsRAkZD2kR0PdkzO9RCPSJMhbmHVDXobe1zRmjv/+9RMjhqNT9Tmw 3SYW9/lj9T1JL3/H7vYwT1A6XPwKSpn5+b0ZoRK3q3gQKPvRbBzKLPYO9HFJ8CRuX1UM gp3g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1718220657; x=1718825457; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:mime-version:x-gm-message-state :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=apqmzHiIDCQSGxVHfLfk+dxrktIIVA9Nhx3hHvtg7dQ=; b=CNWHvT/O/7nG16gTu3WsvfKmLC6EhJtWS3C0pgUGgFf+4+btYpkkzXF7POvRH7ajti m9HWHSlee4xVtZHLRWDARBE7h3yucUGj/jnMWkcWVK9tN+u0mFDUo57V1SVwv2N/gudf L8OuvuXuMLeQyan15HMl5k110gRGpMi5Rbr8RIqpSaoGz7vWvia14BL3jokTRVz0TEIR hYT/3Bvin0JJzdcydpINsdw5pfZv0WebpesRt8w0WiEKi49EKwxLOiCcX6BM7+0taP8W 9/luy1ls6xSSwGmEeGXxpPws/tk8l38t9TNlOTolS+UAkPgCBhvIW3sSMFotegkF+8Fb IkIg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yy5c0nu0srE+VC6GbWX/xafQYEf5KUYTb6ErdMB8l9chSAAfX/Q vnFxu+DJ9qXEzZlysyWCjzFvK/L5b9roNc9+m+fIiv4vMnUeBG6JyvqCnf8kRyKdwl93RAGR8kt HuC9cJkK3r6iL45ySnFIury6eHEkYp5glP+EFssb0ymbnk/KRSmxDOQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IF4Zk7Yoc5AMIxkw/XpR5DMsIj65K3463iInbWufn5NMXVI9LFRZar8yAKK7fjKxSaff/45ZIztUQU93mT1sS4= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:ea87:b0:2c3:1234:8bc0 with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2c4a771381bmr2612782a91.46.1718220656583; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 12:30:56 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Warner Losh Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2024 13:30:45 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: github automation working group To: FreeBSD Hackers , freebsd-git Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e1c274061ab66b26" X-Spamd-Bar: / X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.80 / 15.00]; SEM_URIBL(3.50)[discord.gg:url]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::102b:from]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bsdimp.com]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(0.00)[bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com:s=20230601]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Vzwcy5n82z41lV --000000000000e1c274061ab66b26 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Greetings! I'd like to announce the formation of a github automation working group. The goals of this working group are two fold: 1. To improve the automation we use to move pull requests into the tree, including testing (and possibly phabricator and bz improvements as well, though that's follow on work). This will likely include batching of pull requests so we can run more extensive tests on the batch than we could on any individual one. 2. Improve the github experience for contributors that are using github pull requests. This will include things like checklists, automatic jobs that run to critique bits of the pull request and tooling to help the volunteers landing the pull requests in tracking the state and readiness, etc. 3. Grab-bag of whatever else makes it easier to contribute to FreeBSD. We'll be using two forums to communicate. First, for announcements and more structured discussions, we'll use the freebsd-git@freebsd.org mailing list. For the ephemeral communications, that will be on our discord server ( https://discord.gg/freebsd for invite) in the #github-hacking channel. I'm open to other forums that match the participants' needs, but this is where we're going to start. We'll also use a github repo to track the scripts we're creating and improving, as well as a useful place to have in-progress documentation in asciidoc format to merge into the handbook when it's ready. If it makes sense, we'll have VC meetings, but for now I'm not planning on one (though I am open to changing that if people think it would be useful). Please let me know if you are interested. All the latest data can be found on the wiki page https://wiki.freebsd.org/WorkingGroup/Github which will have pointers to all the things relevant. Warner P.S. I know this is a little different. I tried to do the 'git next steps' working group and that failed because its mandate was too big and I couldn't get people to join who wanted to commit to work. So, I've scaled back on the goals and am trying a new way to encourage people to collaborate. It's partially an experiment, and partially a guess that the people who can help the most will already have a discord account. --000000000000e1c274061ab66b26 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greetings!

I'd like to announce the= formation of a github automation working group. The goals of this working = group are two fold:

1. To improve the automation w= e use to move pull requests into the tree, including testing (and possibly = phabricator and bz improvements as well, though that's follow on=C2=A0w= ork). This will likely include batching of pull requests so we can run more= extensive tests on the batch than we could on any individual=C2=A0one.
2. Improve the github experience for contributors that are using git= hub pull requests. This will include things like checklists, automatic jobs= that run to critique bits of the pull request and tooling to help the volu= nteers landing the pull requests in tracking the state and readiness, etc.<= /div>
3. Grab-bag of whatever else makes it easier to contribute to Fre= eBSD.

We'll be using two forums to communicate= . First, for announcements and more structured discussions, we'll use t= he freebsd-git@freebsd.org m= ailing list. For the ephemeral communications, that will be on our discord = server (https://discord.gg/freebsd for invite) in the #github-hacking channel. I'm open to other forums= that match the participants' needs, but this is where we're going = to start. We'll also use a github repo to track the scripts we're c= reating and improving, as well as a useful place to have in-progress docume= ntation in asciidoc format to merge into the handbook when it's ready.<= /div>

If it makes sense, we'll have VC meetings, but= for now I'm not planning on one (though I am open to changing that if = people think it would be useful).

Please let me kn= ow if you are interested.


Warner

P.S. I know this is a little different. I tried to do= the 'git next steps' working group and that failed because its man= date was too big and I couldn't get people to join who wanted to commit= to work. So, I've scaled back on the goals and am trying a new way to = encourage people to collaborate. It's partially an experiment, and part= ially a guess that the people who can help the most will already have a dis= cord account.
--000000000000e1c274061ab66b26-- From nobody Wed Jun 12 19:46:18 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Vzwyv0GD8z5NLYl for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 19:46:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rick.macklem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pg1-x534.google.com (mail-pg1-x534.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::534]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Vzwyt5c5bz440P; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 19:46:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rick.macklem@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-pg1-x534.google.com with SMTP id 41be03b00d2f7-6bce380eb9bso133602a12.0; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 12:46:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1718221588; x=1718826388; darn=freebsd.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=9YPd79DDSeVbSyGzKCPJm0ziQCtVLbMfaWbrTjKX5l8=; b=IJTJ1iTFhHHBG+EMzAmRwQmDe+6zqUTH82YZKFJSHvtZSx5/9cEWUpcIvS9p3SlPk3 xb1RGDD/feAolDCUSfOECg6A7rMUfOBTn+J2Q7H3SoW5Ul6I5/N9RWT1fmxXG6z39uU0 a0G3VT8wF1l6SE0my0m75NcyPD45Wsc8o6MgBCA+Ug0T9mV9F61yiz96qD9mmz21FrG8 YAesuDcOe+kifjpE4FWvfwLQ9U5IjY7cCtB4q9Xuna0DDuB73t66cAQ6HP7KMd1qywqk CxlLKUpq6n0AWyfhXYPcPZF67d15VnmMA4f0d4buaUNRgvQxqjSxlQiZFnXXTUxsl3ou 4T0A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1718221588; x=1718826388; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=9YPd79DDSeVbSyGzKCPJm0ziQCtVLbMfaWbrTjKX5l8=; b=kA9Enj1S8qaRCwxJc5Bp1nfpQ0RC7wvjFTyzDknVf0xyO5RTjrkwGOsTRWGrQfJxWt Sp/jOZtglZmjjtvbhMz9QMgLqKKl6ze81C1oj3QvcZZwiFHr2BK0zj1SWac/s4aLV+ly 6Je1ravafrjGCKKJrcWv7/XT4p2nlsAFn6XE6Q4W7O8aXX3E+RgA86qULYHgFF6JncZE WPh6KS2iu8nMbkeQYaAjQqoWfUo6BdgHdlnpmFZh0hgoVdCMRvyIb8GLl9zCOxS0Nq9l /deWw5J4IxJYJserqkfPEr/erB8PTcS27y3mzwYmNLAjTGgCLvk/FoyiJU0SE5/Z4ct1 UbiA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyooNv0t3sTVmpzMeYcdUIoqMEl0yv6bf+3BQ7uMQqZNG68sGT+ 8H8cOHX0dKh2yurjyTHppzG80gJW+Dr+9unDp7dAkjfpC3CQ4dUFy3RnZsvAQfa5zNqwhsa4Pki JAOyxVgWhHl40r9neiDd4Rdt5g5zp X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGEgJSGHzHo624JBVkyjxTGBJygGz4999mYCzfiCwaaJxRtbR0WIeo1nJMphuL9GXnIJ4d0+fnivjvwL2oN9Fw= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:ab8d:b0:2c3:13d:735 with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2c4a76d3f1amr2777406a91.32.1718221588261; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 12:46:28 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Rick Macklem Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2024 12:46:18 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Removing "CMOS clock set to UTC" question To: Ed Maste Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Vzwyt5c5bz440P On Wed, Jun 12, 2024 at 9:22=E2=80=AFAM Ed Maste wrote= : > > Our installer asks (via tzsetup): > > > Is this machine's CMOS clock set to UTC? If it is set to local time, > > or you don't know, please choose NO here! > > I've heard many reports of new users being confused by this question > when installing FreeBSD for the first time. I don't think it provides > much value; it is a minor convenience for dual-booting with Windows > but imposes a cost on everyone installing FreeBSD. It is trivial to > configure the system to use local time in the system's real-time clock > by creating /etc/wall_cmos_clock. Other operating systems do not ask, > they just default to local time (Windows) or UTC (everyone else). You might want to replace the question with a one sentence note describing the above. Every time I run into it, I spend about 10min remembering the name /etc/wall_cmos_clock. But, yea, I also never think about whether to answer yes or no and fix in l= ater. rick > > I've proposed removing the question from bsdinstall in > https://reviews.freebsd.org/D45569. > From nobody Wed Jun 12 20:44:42 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4VzyGH2mRFz5NQXc for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 20:44:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vs1-xe2b.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4VzyGH0h36z4BNn for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 20:44:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-vs1-xe2b.google.com with SMTP id ada2fe7eead31-48d7a81a594so118795137.2 for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 13:44:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1718225093; x=1718829893; darn=freebsd.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=jFHMwFIKbY88CQ8SHvsIzUVgRrlD0OQAsKrC0FCJd9s=; b=UucAJT71F5IEWOUruDi1qBZqrUaMuI5Hdh2NFdZm2qYyicU4AN4RELhA0M5mUCAnkx gIFAYG6gSqG0BiZeQRG/RDLLnqoDASI3GwsVrMBPfA1WbmUzYUJq3ZtFo0XiQ2zmJUGD Ss1F1jvDtT9nPPvuBa4+B3QyfS1aavIJ5nhC+jYRnIT7QXyRu7SBqemMoAf5QSan+J/Y flPBvEWYj6RAg7ebhg315sgZXSYiskxroFgY0vxUGXYyapfhqCiTAacvrnDeIDysZfW/ 2wbZb8n7cjDs6GQ0H62RFmtGbqRen33+wiaGS0VoGEOrSeTC61c3SHrl8iVcCkjK3fTb kl/g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1718225093; x=1718829893; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=jFHMwFIKbY88CQ8SHvsIzUVgRrlD0OQAsKrC0FCJd9s=; b=W0hZO3tmulwvRFq9mFLpJGVGS40+F3E2H3qtGkwAHo0HVPMzo9QR4RzULm21DOsFMT 6RiUXDMi8gSWsxi/0+9J8EOdJvy0S0HbYNF8bUAygIYLZTWEKjX2trDAzbdJ7CQYq4uX 7T13nLHLzwKj5HOqpwgUemnnwH99c/QhHqhpGpl+lZP7Fo6R2ZZJnyuTpXlAQ33Pr9fi fTeUV9kBr9e9cy+EQ0vCuX4DzYQrJr2kFnu5gsP/EHvNTwe8k5JC0NgqAsImGvFpphcs eZvlpscEz6RUKnGRxE5u8R2aTrLlw3QYXCvk/CGd27/+/SNykA3GDnIt63xZ9Sztrvpe nugQ== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCWS8mt72ysONlQpxhMdp8Hwk6LRf6Hm6osK3zfRPcB5EzX7ZNx7dMbsurxep0HkU2UrVM3iS55OMyjM1y2NNgIrpZHpylKIxpcxlgU= X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzMxde8YR9xNgpfYGdpsRHGu2w0LXAyK3mC7crZcnTKs2bwdDZf fbNmgvUdrXxngWt8e+VgSP5y27T14/uNFiMN8x7d/bnOPz0wPxbj3mShzy/LcRhWZNwOMQagRBz xlaEtVAAjq6ss2cYPbPxVE52sov10sw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEuwlHffY4mK1mJQ446N4QRBNqaIjYq1jmxRocEqKUGbvgxWl85jszELmF1uOXQuxKIvswWMQyvQ11B6e/UVOU= X-Received: by 2002:a67:bb0e:0:b0:48c:514d:2d98 with SMTP id ada2fe7eead31-48d91de623emr3417322137.18.1718225093395; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 13:44:53 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0.2.0-final-1718212027.814-0x75c1f0@qmda.emu.st> <26eaa45fec5b95b6a00948d45aaea927@bsdforge.com> In-Reply-To: <26eaa45fec5b95b6a00948d45aaea927@bsdforge.com> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2024 16:44:42 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Removing "CMOS clock set to UTC" question To: Chris Cc: Mark Delany , FreeBSD Hackers Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4VzyGH0h36z4BNn On Wed, Jun 12, 2024 at 3:08=E2=80=AFPM Chris wrot= e: > > On 2024-06-12 10:07, Mark Delany wrote: > > On 12Jun24, Ed Maste apparently wrote: > >> Our installer asks (via tzsetup): > >> > >> > Is this machine's CMOS clock set to UTC? If it is set to local time= , > >> > or you don't know, please choose NO here! > >> > >> I've heard many reports of new users being confused by this question > > > > And experienced users too! > > > > I've been installing FBSD and various other OSes for decades and whenev= er I > > see that > > question invariable: > > > > a) I have no clue as to what the machine's CMOS clock is set to in th= e > > first instance > > > > b) I do not want the hassle of stopping the install to gain access to= some > > obscure BIOS > > screen that might or might not give me the answer. > > > > c) I have no clue as to the implications of answering this question o= ne > > way or the > > other. > > > > d) I don't know whether it's a good idea or not to change the CMOS cl= ock > > to UTC if it's > > not the case. Is it? > > > > e) I don't think I've ever seen a similar question asked by any other= OS > > install. > > > > At the very least the message should indicate what happens if you get t= he > > answer > > wrong. Does the system fail to install, does the clock run backwards, w= ill > > my dog stop > > barking? What? > > "If you are unsure, or don't know the answer here. Select NO" > Seems intuitive enough. > IOW no harm done here, if you choose NO (selects localtime). :) > Personally, I don't have a strong BIAS here, except that it's always been > this > way, and I don't have to remember to set it post installation. So it seem= s > "convenient". In a dual (or more) boot config it is *NOT* more convenient because some OS's like Window$ just assume that it is set to local time and if you set it to UTC on FreeBSD you will need to always sync on reboot (to different OS) or be 5 hrs off (EDT/NYC).... in the 3 years of having my machine being dual boot and even after reinstalling FreeBSD (my primary OS) on a brand new drive (old one died) I still have this issue... lucky FreeBSD has ntpdate at boot but Window$ doesn't.... from what I have seen Linux also does this (or at least when I run the Linux partition under bhyve it does) --=20 Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From nobody Wed Jun 12 20:59:47 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Vzybm3dlrz5NRZ9 for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 21:00:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bakul@iitbombay.org) Received: from mail-yw1-x1136.google.com (mail-yw1-x1136.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1136]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Vzybl2SS0z4F7r for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 21:00:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bakul@iitbombay.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=iitbombay-org.20230601.gappssmtp.com header.s=20230601 header.b=eS2WogAS; dmarc=pass (policy=quarantine) header.from=iitbombay.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of bakul@iitbombay.org designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::1136 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bakul@iitbombay.org Received: by mail-yw1-x1136.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-62cecde1db9so3627237b3.2 for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 14:00:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=iitbombay-org.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1718226002; x=1718830802; darn=freebsd.org; h=to:references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:cc:date :in-reply-to:from:subject:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=6BqaA1vNf8jqjFRrp1VmL1pihbNac9H1C7F4Z7mTSEw=; b=eS2WogASNGWaz5gsdVdnVXWCCob7cVxb8Jg36kJ1NowF+3SjLzYEUC5wdKW9xV84PS 4BwCu3kCrPu3w93X8W3C2R2iBqwNQusxNVjS2zmPPX2Xc3jFAFz+Q8QOolpfTQ7w+LDZ R0RaLaHOtEMRX58cz7NWbVtKjuM3ngU+4nWY7pFX0HHNTHFZ0QjwXcmdkUj5O+tsc//t vqgbxJ3/yRgOf3Mzp/uJDJm6C7pvamqKjstZmQq6++IsOjzKjeFSQjsVimzPXsN1A+j+ gcMRupfmIO7yo4umD6dg0GvLbDwSzH0TdMQlssl9CeDn6b1is5XTC6Mld3Koa6Es0wVu u0Xg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1718226002; x=1718830802; h=to:references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:cc:date :in-reply-to:from:subject:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=6BqaA1vNf8jqjFRrp1VmL1pihbNac9H1C7F4Z7mTSEw=; b=s9ins/+O/aJzmBXsCOVrBqSOYovWr2WNcdIffvYtRFRx/CGyJh1WD6odErsyeMiCCb zdA6W2oHbjCqiMAS2H72AvgXLR648/QjkzzugsvjCsbWoc/kC2GmdfC2jwOFsHwx4AxI xYRy7J7/PSccUwbagpYXQz44STLND0tnEeU3A9cvHL6Q8WP2oemeolh+A0APyROi3D/r eIWU018OzqZYAixDp7ZJiLQgQxITQzzZO5l3Zs+Ma09vuDI2BM/AX7T44UdiNrWNPs3/ +fqSYkbqlEk6wNvOTFRwdulTIxm6+wRqdefhq/evP6aaQFC1DQ8YozZ6+mSj9LJkbYFc 7LzA== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCXA0rFa4d/PAgXGS3q17uvW9xv2HwvaI/IkY995ZcYl0uhfJHst+ifhqnKzl7DnXGi6PEuI3xS3ifua9IoaVKiWK84aX5s2lRuTNF8= X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yy/DLdfBkseq9T2LvulEHqGu8VQZ2W4y7T4D3SZxazpPUW2HfUF qGpE6D66YwztJKVq131PC7JqSKt+h2c1qjHZMalpDKAGj6qVwcNIbxeR+uicsnz7+s7JdUhEkMg = X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGq4+9WhAtu2IkdXqRRYP1EKNxmEGOhJL5gfuUt4bosZzyxG5kMylPF6UfUeIYEIAhqASIkSQ== X-Received: by 2002:a81:e444:0:b0:627:e963:2bcf with SMTP id 00721157ae682-62fbdbabc40mr27589277b3.51.1718226001722; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 14:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (107-215-223-229.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net. [107.215.223.229]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 00721157ae682-62ccacadc00sm25097287b3.1.2024.06.12.14.00.00 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 12 Jun 2024 14:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3774.600.62\)) Subject: Re: Removing "CMOS clock set to UTC" question From: Bakul Shah In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2024 13:59:47 -0700 Cc: Chris , Mark Delany , FreeBSD Hackers Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <0.2.0-final-1718212027.814-0x75c1f0@qmda.emu.st> <26eaa45fec5b95b6a00948d45aaea927@bsdforge.com> To: Aryeh Friedman X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3774.600.62) X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.46 / 15.00]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.96)[-0.964]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[iitbombay.org,quarantine]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[iitbombay-org.20230601.gappssmtp.com:s=20230601]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[iitbombay-org.20230601.gappssmtp.com:+]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[bakul]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; APPLE_MAILER_COMMON(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::1136:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Vzybl2SS0z4F7r On Jun 12, 2024, at 1:44=E2=80=AFPM, Aryeh Friedman = wrote: >=20 > In a dual (or more) boot config it is *NOT* more convenient because > some OS's like Window$ just assume that it is set to local time and if > you set it to UTC on FreeBSD you will need to always sync on reboot > (to different OS) or be 5 hrs off (EDT/NYC).... in the 3 years of > having my machine being dual boot and even after reinstalling FreeBSD > (my primary OS) on a brand new drive (old one died) I still have this > issue... lucky FreeBSD has ntpdate at boot but Window$ doesn't.... Rather than removing this feature, perhaps the installer should say something like "If you also run windows on this machine, or plan to, set the CMOS clock to Local, else set it to UTC".= From nobody Wed Jun 12 21:13:37 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Vzyw36GHzz5NSQ3 for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 21:14:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-hackers@phoe.frmug.org) Received: from frmug.org (enterprise.frmug.org [213.36.253.97]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Vzyw319VFz4Gr7 for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 21:14:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-hackers@phoe.frmug.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=frmug.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd-hackers@phoe.frmug.org designates 213.36.253.97 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd-hackers@phoe.frmug.org Received: by frmug.org (Postfix, from userid 66) id 6B0B212C07C; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 23:14:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: by memo2.memo.frmug.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 244DB17A40; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 23:13:38 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2024 23:13:37 +0200 From: Bertrand Petit To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing "CMOS clock set to UTC" question Message-ID: <20240612211337.GZ2052@memo2.memo.frmug.org> References: <0.2.0-final-1718212027.814-0x75c1f0@qmda.emu.st> <26eaa45fec5b95b6a00948d45aaea927@bsdforge.com> List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.1 (2019-06-15) X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.40 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.998]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.60)[-0.598]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[frmug.org,none]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:213.36.253.97]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:12322, ipnet:213.36.0.0/16, country:FR]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROMTLD(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Vzyw319VFz4Gr7 It is sad to see an option removed because "it confuse users". I agree it is broken so we need to fix it: we should make the option's effect obvious so that anyone can understand it. I porpose that in place of asking for a UTC or local selection we query "what time is it?" instead. Two choices would be presented as (live) timestamps, each simultaneously showing the effect of UTC/local time CMOS setting would have later on the host's wall clock. The task of the user is to select the option matching any external reference he sees fit. -- %!PS -- Bertrand Petit /D{def}def/E{exch}D/G{get}D/I{2 div}D/U{dup}D/L{roll}D/Y{setgray}D/N{newpath}D /O{N 0 0 moveto}D/P{pop}D/T{translate}D currentpagedevice/PageSize G U 0 G/w E D 1 G /h E D w I h I T 0 Y 1 setlinewidth 0 1 2 { P 120 rotate 2 4 w U mul h U mul add sqrt I 50 add {N 50 0 3 2 L 0 360 arc stroke}for}for/s{O true charpath pathbbox exch 4 -1 L E sub I 3 1 L sub I} D /l(bp)D 0.94 Y /Helvetica findfont 22 scalefont setfont l s P(x)s exch P T O l show showpage From nobody Wed Jun 12 21:25:17 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Vzz975BQMz5NTFW for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 21:25:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asomers@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vs1-f46.google.com (mail-vs1-f46.google.com [209.85.217.46]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Vzz966n0Gz4Jr4 for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 21:25:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asomers@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed), No valid DKIM" header.from=freebsd.org (policy=none); spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of asomers@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.46 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=asomers@gmail.com Received: by mail-vs1-f46.google.com with SMTP id ada2fe7eead31-48d7a81a594so134393137.2 for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 14:25:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1718227529; x=1718832329; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:mime-version:x-gm-message-state :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=qTgFLx48uFDyRb9CqjNAvc+2C4j2dC21CGTMNoXpJws=; b=Fiqk6Dwc9K+k73qZB0fBJUkftjtMTtieUZ7Zdgck/e803C2rhLmMCzOXxsRWi0veFS HMMEVxE5ohqTksWBFfH28Rh4K2D24JivPEXdX/zJ5bAfRqLwbXhQ6IeEtQfKoa8pqvub ry0P2V4pzMib4okYaHcyYO0OXM7oiXjR0futAiHo9iG2J1vcJSGvq+GCvUXytT7ykIvB 1rqVS7jqTiN3DoDdblpTrQjAI5Fb+y9yIpqnUb9brJqBKNldlcjyHGcHk3qXzIH066V7 F9ytHD7n/hnqWuD8ypsGMXHhwZg7ax/Rw32Gz3SFDJzbR3+BCi+GQZpcx4hnbafDYvu2 vo+Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwQ0RBc4RFOqNFOVLcBFDdUBb4c3Go/u0U725d8h0g5Nx0tAhdq MuZLr3qE6sVr8KBr+aoXSa887eiy9e98gPXjuIxBKmPyizFluyn8oiuA45V2exxYEesWRwmrRAw C024McpmcqSGhtEw6nq29+ZLp3NxZpLDj X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHJ3Go/olGNTG9BwNVM8VAycEdGzhVHFKrcfaqH0YlZpqSZkBX+onjkzq0pKvplemhRg8oHKn9MBovLzw3eZLo= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:354f:b0:48d:8904:3dad with SMTP id ada2fe7eead31-48d91e69e7bmr3158445137.32.1718227529311; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 14:25:29 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Alan Somers Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2024 15:25:17 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Request for testing: ctld with physical ports To: FreeBSD Hackers Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.12 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[asomers@freebsd.org,asomers@gmail.com]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.22)[-0.215]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[freebsd.org : SPF not aligned (relaxed), No valid DKIM,none]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[asomers]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[asomers@freebsd.org,asomers@gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[209.85.217.46:from]; TO_DOM_EQ_FROM_DOM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[209.85.217.46:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Vzz966n0Gz4Jr4 If you use ctld with physical ports (for example, you assign a particular CTL target to "isp0"), then please test the linked PR. It changes the way that ctld associates these ports with targets. Hopefully nothing should be different from the user's perspective, but I don't have the hardware to test it myself. https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/pull/1287 From nobody Wed Jun 12 21:49:05 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4VzzhX31qvz5NWc5 for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 21:49:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsd-lists@bsdforge.com) Received: from udns.ultimatedns.net (udns.ultimatedns.net [24.113.41.81]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "ultimatedns.net", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4VzzhW5xTdz4Nc8 for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 21:49:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsd-lists@bsdforge.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=ultimatedns.net header.s=mx99 header.b=dgHE9lsC; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of bsd-lists@bsdforge.com has no SPF policy when checking 24.113.41.81) smtp.mailfrom=bsd-lists@bsdforge.com Received: from ultimatedns.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by udns.ultimatedns.net (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTP id 45CLn6cp000366; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 14:49:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsd-lists@bsdforge.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=ultimatedns.net; s=mx99; t=1718228952; x=1718229552; r=y; bh=GOlrOYmGcAxH2bbSMIwS0XvzJG8QkrGMuVgrJlHNBG8=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=dgHE9lsCqk7cPEbOB6qteTH9IDeroW61M7qbldvn/a8y17ifiPbwOu5twaO99Cqsf fhgD02VHWu5AluQhWZEFV5QTh2eN9NskU7fqPoh3iGq0A/IEp3qwGh66rz6GJHozeE D08kiE9osYShlQDolFr2ZunFMHK1e3dic6SK/PzC0Jn23eVYSUqIx/vGTCCVlbi93j ohEOlA8/RRhgqeC0XGTCJtOk9qs8tb7GAZA41VFUWtZaPhThrXvEcQTFKwCKA/iurv yRDRLOQgeNPYABHRDxBpg1VgCnYvV8fqPnFDYmXPjDhMjU8Hkh2tE3TqNF33kN5lmM 6E97EzdCRF3kw== List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2024 14:49:05 -0700 From: Chris To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: Mark Delany , FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Removing "CMOS clock set to UTC" question In-Reply-To: References: <0.2.0-final-1718212027.814-0x75c1f0@qmda.emu.st> <26eaa45fec5b95b6a00948d45aaea927@bsdforge.com> User-Agent: UDNSMS/17.0 Message-ID: <9c225c520e12b279ac6d19df7ebeec9f@bsdforge.com> X-Sender: bsd-lists@bsdforge.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spamd-Bar: + X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=multimap; Matched map: local_wl_ip X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.00 / 15.00]; R_DKIM_REJECT(1.00)[ultimatedns.net:s=mx99]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.10)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11404, ipnet:24.113.0.0/16, country:US]; local_wl_ip(0.00)[24.113.41.81]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[ultimatedns.net:-] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4VzzhW5xTdz4Nc8 On 2024-06-12 13:44, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > On Wed, Jun 12, 2024 at 3:08 PM Chris wrote: >> >> On 2024-06-12 10:07, Mark Delany wrote: >> > On 12Jun24, Ed Maste apparently wrote: >> >> Our installer asks (via tzsetup): >> >> >> >> > Is this machine's CMOS clock set to UTC? If it is set to local time, >> >> > or you don't know, please choose NO here! ... >> > >> > At the very least the message should indicate what happens if you get the >> > answer >> > wrong. Does the system fail to install, does the clock run backwards, will >> > my dog stop >> > barking? What? >> >> "If you are unsure, or don't know the answer here. Select NO" >> Seems intuitive enough. >> IOW no harm done here, if you choose NO (selects localtime). :) >> Personally, I don't have a strong BIAS here, except that it's always been >> this >> way, and I don't have to remember to set it post installation. So it seems >> "convenient". > > In a dual (or more) boot config it is *NOT* more convenient because > some OS's like Window$ just assume that it is set to local time and if > you set it to UTC on FreeBSD you will need to always sync on reboot > (to different OS) or be 5 hrs off (EDT/NYC).... in the 3 years of > having my machine being dual boot and even after reinstalling FreeBSD > (my primary OS) on a brand new drive (old one died) I still have this > issue... lucky FreeBSD has ntpdate at boot but Window$ doesn't.... > from what I have seen Linux also does this (or at least when I run the > Linux partition under bhyve it does) This option really only has the largest affect on new users. New users are not likely running the installer to replace their current OS(s). But likely already have Windows installed, and are looking to place it beside it. Choosing NO (localtime) during the install has zero ill affect. NIX OS's know what to do should they want/need UTC. Windows, however, doesn't. Given that likely the greatest number of (confused) new users already have Windows installed. Why not default to "localtime"? This coming from a near 40+ (BSD) year user, writing this on a laptop running FreeBSD, OpenBSD, Slackware, Windows, and Hackintosh (multiboot), powered by refind. Like I said, I have no strong BIAS. This is just the way I see it, and why. :) ---Chris From nobody Wed Jun 12 22:27:00 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4W00XJ0L6yz5NZdZ for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 22:27:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from steffen@sdaoden.eu) Received: from sdaoden.eu (sdaoden.eu [217.144.132.164]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4W00XH3gMxz4TvW for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 22:27:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from steffen@sdaoden.eu) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sdaoden.eu; s=citron; t=1718231222; x=1718897888; h=date:author:from:to:cc:subject: message-id:in-reply-to:references:openpgp:blahblahblah:mime-version: content-type:content-transfer-encoding:author:from:subject:date:to:cc: resent-author:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender:resent-to:resent-cc: resent-reply-to:resent-message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version: content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:content-id: content-description:message-id:mail-followup-to:openpgp:blahblahblah; bh=1OAQr82GdP4qLg+uE/s0buOO3fQPbMpyO6nW9gNgHrc=; b=VLUsjEYY2yGXcrqjYDxSovJ6+iJ4rHpDTy66Ivq5eI2hJmCuqi/gKGuTA80nX1nWRLMRaFwB Q9He6eqBZO5m5dmrA7AWcRFTyDZrFM42aHuI1nasCxlw+EUB8VI0uwWQ5hvl3Ldzo/iLWwXv1j X8bFiR5NtxIrpMMvPfFP8LApCOWE4z8eWfGpQJugPk+8NhFCEqe6cxoZZ1PXxBK14Z6kXRzH+/ hb90BPmSymHiUkfkSxX34nfxvPFDDNj0cI1Vr/8Lkoaqh7gwZ30pruM15+Cdz4lDNZGLJuFx/b b9ALx3sGqhFbhP9Vk1x0H788sV2TH88c0/gWOefKaH90vPMw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=ed25519-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sdaoden.eu; s=orange; t=1718231222; x=1718897888; h=date:author:from:to:cc:subject: message-id:in-reply-to:references:openpgp:blahblahblah:mime-version: content-type:content-transfer-encoding:author:from:subject:date:to:cc: resent-author:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender:resent-to:resent-cc: resent-reply-to:resent-message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version: content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:content-id: content-description:message-id:mail-followup-to:openpgp:blahblahblah; bh=1OAQr82GdP4qLg+uE/s0buOO3fQPbMpyO6nW9gNgHrc=; b=dDD5PtDm+PXgwmsW7o+fP84tGyQz69U1i5Xck745vm6+U68/xS3eiYM9p3MZ39Zqj/kWg1wp Y/PMCgT+3KGNCg== Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2024 00:27:00 +0200 Author: Steffen Nurpmeso From: Steffen Nurpmeso To: FreeBSD Hackers Cc: Chris , Aryeh Friedman , Mark Delany Subject: Re: Removing "CMOS clock set to UTC" question Message-ID: <20240612222700.emGJ-jBv@steffen%sdaoden.eu> In-Reply-To: <9c225c520e12b279ac6d19df7ebeec9f@bsdforge.com> References: <0.2.0-final-1718212027.814-0x75c1f0@qmda.emu.st> <26eaa45fec5b95b6a00948d45aaea927@bsdforge.com> <9c225c520e12b279ac6d19df7ebeec9f@bsdforge.com> User-Agent: s-nail v14.9.24-621-g0d1e55f367 OpenPGP: id=EE19E1C1F2F7054F8D3954D8308964B51883A0DD; url=https://ftp.sdaoden.eu/steffen.asc; preference=signencrypt BlahBlahBlah: Any stupid boy can crush a beetle. But all the professors in the world can make no bugs. List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15987, ipnet:217.144.128.0/20, country:DE] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4W00XH3gMxz4TvW Chris wrote in <9c225c520e12b279ac6d19df7ebeec9f@bsdforge.com>: |On 2024-06-12 13:44, Aryeh Friedman wrote: |> On Wed, Jun 12, 2024 at 3:08=E2=80=AFPM Chris = wrote: |>> On 2024-06-12 10:07, Mark Delany wrote: |>>> On 12Jun24, Ed Maste apparently wrote: |>>>> Our installer asks (via tzsetup): |>>>> |>>>>> Is this machine's CMOS clock set to UTC? If it is set to local tim= e, |>>>>> or you don't know, please choose NO here! ... ..and wouldn't it be possible to show the actual computer time, ie, interpreted / shown as UTC? I also feel unsure each and every time. (UTC feels not natural to me, .. but actually results in the desired behaviour.) --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) From nobody Wed Jun 12 22:51:37 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4W014j1tJ6z5NcVP for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 22:51:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Received: from www121.sakura.ne.jp (www121.sakura.ne.jp [153.125.133.21]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4W014h4nc5z4XWq; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 22:51:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from kalamity.joker.local (123-1-21-232.area1b.commufa.jp [123.1.21.232]) (authenticated bits=0) by www121.sakura.ne.jp (8.17.1/8.17.1/[SAKURA-WEB]/20201212) with ESMTPA id 45CMpbpE060624; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 07:51:37 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=dec.sakura.ne.jp; s=s2405; t=1718232697; bh=9xt2+QodYXCVZ0OvsDOW6lwcZVdOZYodBkm2yg3rPpg=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=EYidDghhjv2iiKut0dq6aMCqGbc/K16WHIPBskEy/RrhoYRRG9FO8VXH3xOEIwWoT 6LBcbFW+vDmfDrgZtKVlFtMSbvv2sI0JhSFFFc7D8khLED6KbQWWO4oNNbOMgtNh2h sd0hRqpcNjd68MDnHThW26689b1wM40quOiMigIc= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2024 07:51:37 +0900 From: Tomoaki AOKI To: Ed Maste Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Removing "CMOS clock set to UTC" question Message-Id: <20240613075137.c734a227e578996013d3bcc7@dec.sakura.ne.jp> In-Reply-To: References: Organization: Junchoon corps X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.33; amd64-portbld-freebsd14.0) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7684, ipnet:153.125.128.0/18, country:JP] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4W014h4nc5z4XWq On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 12:22:32 -0400 Ed Maste wrote: > Our installer asks (via tzsetup): > > > Is this machine's CMOS clock set to UTC? If it is set to local time, > > or you don't know, please choose NO here! > > I've heard many reports of new users being confused by this question > when installing FreeBSD for the first time. I don't think it provides > much value; it is a minor convenience for dual-booting with Windows > but imposes a cost on everyone installing FreeBSD. It is trivial to > configure the system to use local time in the system's real-time clock > by creating /etc/wall_cmos_clock. Other operating systems do not ask, > they just default to local time (Windows) or UTC (everyone else). > > I've proposed removing the question from bsdinstall in > https://reviews.freebsd.org/D45569. tzsetup(8) manpage is a bit confusing. Does `tzsetup -s` create /etc/wall_cmos_clock when it's not exist and selected timezone is NOT UTC? Unfortunately, most of computers used by end-users (personal or corporate) would running Windows. Does emulated CMOS clocks on VMware, virtualBox and/or something else on Windows shows always UTC, or wall CMOS clock same as host Windows? If the behavior doesn't match the situation, newbies who want to sniff FreeBSD over emulated environment on Windows should surely panic. Causing "Hey, FreeBSD's clock is crazy! It's definately UNUSABLE, even more, UNTRIABLE!". IIRC, ancient OS/2, BeOS and 超漢字（a commercial implementation of BTRON) blindly treated CMOS clock as wall CMOS clock. -- Tomoaki AOKI From nobody Wed Jun 12 23:26:41 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4W01sC2Yl5z5KxrK for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 23:26:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-f51.google.com (mail-io1-f51.google.com [209.85.166.51]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4W01sC0l2gz4cK9 for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 23:26:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-io1-f51.google.com with SMTP id ca18e2360f4ac-7eb7c0f9784so14953539f.2 for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 16:26:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1718234813; x=1718839613; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=1jEslg3pcLtkqE10EZahewXrasvIslp/KJZ5ruQQNFc=; b=rdK8kysfBborVzQv7Gol44R4/3yZ34MlqZC41kCEcKochXkZooIQmyPiLK5qTl6uft YNGdJ20HC6iphHhLvjsFPyRcrJiAraby+UzkDvJASgSPq5qe2zZPW0mtiAj86TyD5TrR frVeXyxqcxL1sOJFbRlUkGqSWn135NOzP5DAd0mhfBH2dkb8yTnHJrZbIbcLVsihwhcM hhkG7HuXwTRmDx0IL4ocxyebuF3smv74cck693sLZkVIeJZ6EVmm1L+joEosDn/dWdrB euLOD3sVHyPwB/njCn0+KK/p4GhD6Hvx4NAggmwBgPIlJy3pfAWKz74l8suk85nr9EmT dEMA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwIFLD42XPdUStO1ECUFYk7Ynq0VeoQGqZ9wuN9v+QbystHo6Vv 9nkyQc43oWuZVm0S+njNW90Ox14eAyov76KPWRybj2CETAcc1Ye9yD+PHFZ719sge66ByCsYGYl 0AnJ45SYcgvqCEzmhUvkMbE/st0dsaLhx X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGVj/hJCOAc7xMqROXIFxiDSFjv57cDn+fC7+ZIFtVofDHoobBoOAPYSRMOqQgtipizhrRgAdCjiluZGzYGpjo= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:6419:b0:7eb:85a8:bfdb with SMTP id ca18e2360f4ac-7ebcd190e1cmr361095639f.17.1718234813304; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 16:26:53 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0.2.0-final-1718212027.814-0x75c1f0@qmda.emu.st> In-Reply-To: <0.2.0-final-1718212027.814-0x75c1f0@qmda.emu.st> From: Ed Maste Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2024 19:26:41 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Removing "CMOS clock set to UTC" question To: Mark Delany Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4W01sC0l2gz4cK9 On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 at 13:07, Mark Delany wrote: > > On 12Jun24, Ed Maste apparently wrote: > > Our installer asks (via tzsetup): > > > > > Is this machine's CMOS clock set to UTC? If it is set to local time, > > > or you don't know, please choose NO here! > > > > I've heard many reports of new users being confused by this question > > And experienced users too! > > I've been installing FBSD and various other OSes for decades and whenever I see that > question invariable: Thank you for your reply -- the points you raised exactly capture the sort of uncertainty raised by the installer's question and highlight why I'd like to get rid of it. > a) I have no clue as to what the machine's CMOS clock is set to in the first instance Indeed, and the blame for this lies with the question. Whether the machine's clock is currently (at the time of installation) set to UTC is actually not all that interesting. What we really want to know is if the user desires to have UTC in the CMOS clock. > b) I do not want the hassle of stopping the install to gain access to some obscure BIOS > screen that might or might not give me the answer. Indeed, and that information isn't needed anyway. > c) I have no clue as to the implications of answering this question one way or the > other. The answer to this question has one effect. If you answer NO the file /etc/wall_cmos_clock is created, and removed if you answer YES. adjkerntz(8) uses the presence of this file to apply a timezone offset when reading from / writing to the real-time (CMOS) clock. > d) I don't know whether it's a good idea or not to change the CMOS clock to UTC if it's > not the case. Is it? If FreeBSD is the only operating system installed on the machine UTC is preferred but it will work either way. If you want to dual-boot they you probably want local time which is what Windows uses by default. When this functionality was first added to tzsetup it came with a comment: | You can configure your system to assume that the battery-backed CMOS | clock is set to your local legal time rather than Universal or | Greenwich time. When the system boots, the \`adjkerntz' program will | examine your current time, reverse-apply the timezone correction, and | then set the system's UTC time to the corrected value. This approach | is NOT guaranteed to always work; in particular, if you reboot your | system during the transition from or to summer time, the calculation | is sometimes impossible, and wierd things may result. | | For this reason, we recommend that, unless you absolutely positively | must leave your CMOS clock on local time, you set your CMOS clock to GMT. This is decent advice. Use UTC unless you will dual-boot Windows. > e) I don't think I've ever seen a similar question asked by any other OS install. I'm not aware of any other OSes asking this. From what I've seen Windows assumes local time and every other OS assumes UTC. > At the very least the message should indicate what happens if you get the answer > wrong. Does the system fail to install, does the clock run backwards, will my dog stop > barking? What? If you choose UTC and reboot into Windows and don't have a network connection the time in Windows will be wrong. If you choose local time the issue in the comment above can apply. From nobody Wed Jun 12 23:42:12 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4W02C60BCNz5L0KP for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 23:42:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-f41.google.com (mail-io1-f41.google.com [209.85.166.41]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4W02C55d0sz4dx3 for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 23:42:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-io1-f41.google.com with SMTP id ca18e2360f4ac-7eb85e80661so14229039f.1 for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 16:42:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1718235744; x=1718840544; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=E7pelQ5flk3S1aGfj18W49uT+JNjjBOKd61iLSeLo9g=; b=l7v6aYlBNEXX3p28KR+XH9xnI7J0ZacXrFA6eVCZvyboYz8gfvp9tD79kHHeIRrS1r G9I8tXeQJXP/C0LhYXvHGV1bZkoy6SbGga3sJIBo3n2ZJJmFYLI8JbxqiZqTM+Q2I/U1 vlu1XOZWxrORua8EY/gX3gRiGONuUXxdqIScoN6dG7XHCAydeJGm+1gwZTMQXZ1S6uba l+PgL6LEiBnUgGzLdQJmlrdgYomSDIoTkrVHUeBrraBVOC0eKROEaX65KcIssbR7NbYZ CZ4kwvsgPomcaZFo8mPAudSxaYpYJqIQlIy3KmjjLNglfTluEWtMZn1KOTqfLFCO0UQo G+/Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwEtwZXCyEKzSVHAFHil09IikZDrMPvP6/K3Gf6DDM9QBREZYcO FMid0waCdqB43l03NmRxae/ZMy2cNHxoKnsjV0+By/q4axL2xVWGXepbSoo5xlgNtrkbNWpcsJ9 CtbCU1/1RUQXmtUSuMiW8YTorEGI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGF6f9kvQcWyaeaCC/Qu0MK4wblpmUO4YhZ4jXzt+enN6zPiehwpuWvqLw9VG5g9PoOFoWRoyKHg40r/MIpWmM= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:3f86:b0:7eb:cba1:b19e with SMTP id ca18e2360f4ac-7ebcd0e4efbmr420273139f.8.1718235743965; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 16:42:23 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0.2.0-final-1718212027.814-0x75c1f0@qmda.emu.st> <26eaa45fec5b95b6a00948d45aaea927@bsdforge.com> <20240612211337.GZ2052@memo2.memo.frmug.org> In-Reply-To: <20240612211337.GZ2052@memo2.memo.frmug.org> From: Ed Maste Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2024 19:42:12 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Removing "CMOS clock set to UTC" question To: Bertrand Petit Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4W02C55d0sz4dx3 On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 at 17:14, Bertrand Petit wrote: > > > It is sad to see an option removed because "it confuse users". It's not only that it's confusing, it's that there is not much value in asking the question. > I agree > it is broken so we need to fix it: we should make the option's effect obvious > so that anyone can understand it. I porpose that in place of asking for a UTC > or local selection we query "what time is it?" instead. Two choices would be > presented as (live) timestamps, each simultaneously showing the effect of > UTC/local time CMOS setting would have later on the host's wall clock. The > task of the user is to select the option matching any external reference he > sees fit. This is not the point of the question though -- once we have a timezone selected and the answer to the UTC question the installer prompts for the user to set the time; it doesn't really matter what it was before.. Despite being exactly what the question asks, it isn't really important whether the CMOS clock is currently set to UTC or local time. What the installer needs to know is whether the user wants the real-time CMOS clock to contain UTC or local time. From nobody Thu Jun 13 05:42:16 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4W0BBb0hZmz5MQ4f for ; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 05:42:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from john@sanren.ac.za) Received: from mail-pf1-x42a.google.com (mail-pf1-x42a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4W0BBZ5Ymnz4N9P for ; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 05:42:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from john@sanren.ac.za) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-pf1-x42a.google.com with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-705c1220a52so620555b3a.1 for ; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 22:42:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sanren-ac-za.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1718257349; x=1718862149; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=x/abfaaodWfH47QrZKjE3SDz9pfv0bxkdqHwhA5UqNk=; b=pVtd2nGA91v/WKdiG9nSbuPiD4yKkxti7UuIZPuuCoU1gBFx2B7g30KVn42B+3jFS8 Hc4C1NEjUFu/z1ts1keYEcw1wUJTd26lPKL7bl709PVIycCL7uzFmow3QENmIllRcBpq h4TIdBDcqbVTOMsv4J2IT3UW9OG6FmcDzaHU4zYohMtoSvAmrVCEXaHqJaMC+1K8OuGq xImHXWH9L78mEQNIBHZpQRt4vQdnRBKKPTBEMgrmKrCAABwefpUWK8hJ8LpIfHqbYNX8 eLiAr2+7SHOGOLX4ikMFPP3xA0wyEN9ftT81N3O1tY/eS71IB7klfYXzyNMuZ8W3uPS6 fccA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1718257349; x=1718862149; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=x/abfaaodWfH47QrZKjE3SDz9pfv0bxkdqHwhA5UqNk=; b=o0Op20FozwJieiT6xqSdAk11ZiEC3djMmTaHohcXNKR0xKVOAmn9Ca06+jBFSYg7mc z0SjQHXTPHhDaKqhcYrmVChxJEm7BxnTH6sfJ4RKfkBJvx1iFHfrOzB2ntMxm6FJvaKu BEZugHiKQWyfGUck49YEjHizkHW72gb/TZQuVxuNYwLECjfYqkA9LwdDuiJJzFXI5sAZ m3hvdvdKi1QyrcEI/qhQvwfhLJcyOQxwR2OAP1w/sLbEzmtm5ComS2DKiF/Sm8QPGmKe PPzl4aM8Xm5DM/w91HpG0v0IyjDcAX6f8jOswl7EUsOYVrbgrXjtAZ6Rff1U1r/ssjEy iHdw== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCWQiv7fg7vYDYlAF9u/zVdAlafDqXra6kq7DMwoORyYW+Q5q5Jui5tuNVl7UCNlQA1kKZRiRHgXOl7gxTRw1TGcehtoE9DKtQzM7jk= X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yw/Us3IH+CXvYKHTIjGKSd/kWETrbpS6RBMM8rkUoeqtwMglybR GGkqmN7M9jU1jRbupSjEzOwEeSmYEamm0EnRHpDXtZOT2bvu3l/C42wxtc7KMswT+63ikFJlKN4 6gf7yK29d1UgpLH8lT9n5D0E6Er+va6dwK+Ah4pA6ILcU3vjU X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEjhO0Pl+neQ2DZZW4KBxjDPx59KXt2dHEdVP2Z2/+BeLvdiBaf+H7NvZ17E6mWVWJe5UVZoHZoYH0DVShWaP8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a20:4305:b0:1b7:ffb9:fb51 with SMTP id adf61e73a8af0-1b8a9c68910mr4152546637.43.1718257348739; Wed, 12 Jun 2024 22:42:28 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0.2.0-final-1718212027.814-0x75c1f0@qmda.emu.st> <26eaa45fec5b95b6a00948d45aaea927@bsdforge.com> <20240612211337.GZ2052@memo2.memo.frmug.org> In-Reply-To: From: John Hay Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2024 07:42:16 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Removing "CMOS clock set to UTC" question To: Ed Maste Cc: Bertrand Petit , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e7a0ad061abef600" X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4W0BBZ5Ymnz4N9P --000000000000e7a0ad061abef600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, 13 Jun 2024 at 01:42, Ed Maste wrote: > > This is not the point of the question though -- once we have a > timezone selected and the answer to the UTC question the installer > prompts for the user to set the time; it doesn't really matter what it > was before.. Despite being exactly what the question asks, it isn't > really important whether the CMOS clock is currently set to UTC or > local time. What the installer needs to know is whether the user wants > the real-time CMOS clock to contain UTC or local time. > > What about tying it to the user's choice if the whole disk should be used for FreeBSD? If it is the only OS, use UTC, else localtime. If the option / question should stay, it could be made clearer and made to not sound like it is final and could not be changed later. John --000000000000e7a0ad061abef600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, 13 Jun 2024 at 01:42, Ed Mast= e <emaste@freebsd.org> wrot= e:

This is not the point of the question though -- once we have a
timezone selected and the answer to the UTC question the installer
prompts for the user to set the time; it doesn't really matter what it<= br> was before.. Despite being exactly what the question asks, it isn't
really important whether the CMOS clock is currently set to UTC or
local time. What the installer needs to know is whether the user wants
the real-time CMOS clock to contain UTC or local time.


What about tying it to the user's = choice if the whole disk should be used for FreeBSD? If it is the only OS, = use UTC, else localtime.

If the option / question = should stay, it could be made clearer and made to not sound like it is fina= l and could not be changed later.

John
= =C2=A0
--000000000000e7a0ad061abef600-- From nobody Thu Jun 13 08:14:09 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4W0FYp0szzz5N9vW for ; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 08:14:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4W0FYn4YPqz4ZqP for ; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 08:14:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1718266461; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=wi5FbiUY+mSKvsyMU9as9mr1yx89K9R6hgKytg8APTk=; b=LiW8cpaqKAidv/3ML0UH9isARtrMjjIz2POraeoGxE1got5XsD13q+riY6NcqqbNMwqQ9O laSpxllswce3/31m1SXGZnTIVhI4/hT9udiHL9qAVkuWAF9kALqDtJ6F7bEWZ+XCp21Qa5 J17/gsHP5ZIFjGbXf+9EJ1oB5yDRNDDFOIfS7m/qfWD8+smezrUHZbK1qwG5BBDy30jHFU Sd5oskJckcXY51qkiM4NtJPebBmyIXNQWQ12P9xAAMocNaDeqHSns3z3suzPuqYGAxySUV pLQbqB6hINNHAFuBwA56ikraTcoVJzutwzYS9zQNIRguxddAfipKivNJYwx4dA== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1718266461; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=VNTOoYN3je39AAc1v9CVnYNy0ZlKSIn889HuBSbbb98VysQIoCgfVs1NgLMw0PnbyLvgR3 crlRlk5F102/irJ0X4szJ13Yj5ND2RLippXc11ujdOkXZkvdv7QQs3vA95vu7nX7VR6fnX +KR4hYUxQaw83zHAFaB2U0efGysVWArZrxBc3dFKT6lV/arTstqVWacfCx6VZxW9LNfWiM hCyDd/yrS4EJmt/Tg5MUJ4PB8yVw7zVejg1dt8qitViNy9NW0N2zYL2NdcnIU9gezrHMbo gKCXlblTH0d/M374SEPOdlwE4LyBQQqmc95tALoszd5ubN/aedpPM4sPg8DBZg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk; dmarc=fail (p=none dis=none) header.from=FreeBSD.org ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1718266461; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=wi5FbiUY+mSKvsyMU9as9mr1yx89K9R6hgKytg8APTk=; b=Kojtu5JDx4m1WvR8/dXlF4M8uJULDnc8aULLOpfgDEg2Mnsd4LPbrcHjCGenO0GQIRtFEK xbsyQ4WPF2Ybzh63SBEUnHxwAM6hOhndEE9miElBz88IzxjxBTrSmG/Y1ZGx6EXZEpWbTs h5LlPS49vevkTi8wxQ8fbm7A7pFQsh2Ar5co7+bWG7aXDnIaEuyaWFHXtyBnfdqAERLXp8 0MnuKSSldYXC38S25ZZXxWh/mhb7JpXQn+vNPmfeIRnE68SLDN5NRg6R7fEVNefOOaIfM+ Fmyqf+TfMoAqp+d86loL4fyeSIT6Z22FWUuICQRTveayg5kjy4AgiXGvZKpYrA== Received: from smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk [81.2.117.100]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: matthew/mail) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4W0FYn3RBvzHjt for ; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 08:14:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from [IPV6:2001:8b0:151:1:f54f:7406:baed:86f2] (unknown [IPv6:2001:8b0:151:1:f54f:7406:baed:86f2]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (prime256v1) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) by smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 33B2EAE13 for ; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 09:14:16 +0100 (BST) Authentication-Results: smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk; dmarc=fail (p=none dis=none) header.from=FreeBSD.org Message-ID: <77f6df50-1c73-48ce-8028-8f9e28a84b76@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2024 09:14:09 +0100 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: Removing "CMOS clock set to UTC" question To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <0.2.0-final-1718212027.814-0x75c1f0@qmda.emu.st> Content-Language: en-GB From: Matthew Seaman In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 13/06/2024 00:26, Ed Maste wrote: > If FreeBSD is the only operating system installed on the machine UTC > is preferred but it will work either way. If you want to dual-boot > they you probably want local time which is what Windows uses by > default. Why not just ask if the user intends to dual boot into Windows? Cheers, Matthew From nobody Thu Jun 13 13:50:37 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4W0P1t6jxBz5NjH4 for ; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 13:50:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net [65.75.216.6]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4W0P1t4bQxz49R5; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 13:50:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id 45DDobCc044815; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 06:50:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id 45DDobuA044814; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 06:50:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <202406131350.45DDobuA044814@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Removing "CMOS clock set to UTC" question In-Reply-To: To: Ed Maste Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2024 06:50:37 -0700 (PDT) CC: Bertrand Petit , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:10494, ipnet:65.75.216.0/23, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4W0P1t4bQxz49R5 > On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 at 17:14, Bertrand Petit > wrote: > > > > > > It is sad to see an option removed because "it confuse users". > > It's not only that it's confusing, it's that there is not much value > in asking the question. > > > I agree > > it is broken so we need to fix it: we should make the option's effect obvious > > so that anyone can understand it. I porpose that in place of asking for a UTC > > or local selection we query "what time is it?" instead. Two choices would be > > presented as (live) timestamps, each simultaneously showing the effect of > > UTC/local time CMOS setting would have later on the host's wall clock. The > > task of the user is to select the option matching any external reference he > > sees fit. > > This is not the point of the question though -- once we have a > timezone selected and the answer to the UTC question the installer > prompts for the user to set the time; it doesn't really matter what it > was before.. Despite being exactly what the question asks, it isn't > really important whether the CMOS clock is currently set to UTC or > local time. What the installer needs to know is whether the user wants > the real-time CMOS clock to contain UTC or local time. You could use this data to present a time based on CMOS with and without the TZ offset and derive the correct wall_cmos_clock value. Please try to make things better, not just less confusing. -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From nobody Thu Jun 13 13:54:47 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4W0P6s6Wmcz5NjLm for ; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 13:55:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-pj1-x102d.google.com (mail-pj1-x102d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102d]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4W0P6s4XtZz4CBB for ; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 13:55:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-pj1-x102d.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2c1a4192d55so875062a91.2 for ; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 06:55:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1718286899; x=1718891699; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=jL1ivuMV8NEVJi4ZDKBWiiITWaN1PxTPEN8ZcTXjXiY=; b=Oos/hjzXcPMO9R0Hjs5hS1fdexDZXdCsPj6yZBPKnb7wOJguEW50ChU3t4aw/8DeH/ X2ANbzcAJY10H90tVgnMxcxEzGEaf6WKnFpuOSsZow9DVh+z8xvrT/XAgj88SzASaQf5 69gVhOagENjgVGGOFUYkSh1+qyFqG9ExMZqxf3TlvCWrtPZEIgc0Zury8K1/5KiCu28N iy/7iX5A82PEHJMV0OHAb4Vk/RpABWJC1rDacp1pQ5ZKyxE9lYvKZNkxSuOM9r/3pwpY 0bCFlIcBKldvAFLdLZeRqeZgmife6/PwTqO+trqZ3umHVQ4OTNo7BbfZzRRf3RfkEsY6 T7Ig== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1718286899; x=1718891699; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=jL1ivuMV8NEVJi4ZDKBWiiITWaN1PxTPEN8ZcTXjXiY=; b=hk9w8MDkGIiqqMw0Vbf2p8yu1siMAYS0mQtoiVbtiulA7OdjNFA0JIGyUQyZjHLo+K E2s78DMg1rj0UiUPXDWb5wqwNQcwehn7EyzCIAi0V6av6KDUK7sztYqY94Zb5v6wUr/H yfM9NPNMGvX7cxNl5OxnxCySyMsb/creZwTgkh6v4wD9MYtn5SXnCtn23lcLu1xEt3ij QMXGmDdVVML4wz8kZkkAzHF9IGIB38bHILotRtFdPufMo5u2ETq1L6h8IXBeRKgKgVuC PeHgqejdHEpxCPyN9VdB38AtZa9y2lHMud3BcV8O4/4xNCjrR0yGSnC9bBBxy1uN0ALs nLjQ== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCWVIYjab7i+5bq8XedurKAESb16F7VAvGevzU3q8s03MRVxs2/oQfG7GYg9r34S8xsVINF440+XE8JmuGQ6veUzFQp9EoFL24iyOWs= X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwSRde9JM0uID+2IWxxmFENLEAAGgikuczSOoMlPw8a4pmgXP91 r68hVBfPSh65VE6wew/jgI5KBpsBJoNsaq6NOWFkbzqop6rOANwgEgpppU6I/YvCMT9xk7ffsHu 516oAEBcFiOScrl7aJn5tc9oPdpWlEMOfdFu1qg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFuajjhfu8oq/BgU/3SZESZJXjfre/ivg43nn7JY5qRRjqQSNkcdlqWnsWUZI4J4B3+3m2Kj2oAMm9XSxSUaN8= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:d496:b0:2c2:fed1:769f with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2c4a7629891mr4795320a91.13.1718286899444; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 06:54:59 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202406131350.45DDobuA044814@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> In-Reply-To: <202406131350.45DDobuA044814@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2024 07:54:47 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Removing "CMOS clock set to UTC" question To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Ed Maste , Bertrand Petit , FreeBSD Hackers Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000439877061ac5d8ca" X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4W0P6s4XtZz4CBB --000000000000439877061ac5d8ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jun 13, 2024, 7:51=E2=80=AFAM Rodney W. Grimes < freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > > On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 at 17:14, Bertrand Petit > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > It is sad to see an option removed because "it confuse users"= . > > > > It's not only that it's confusing, it's that there is not much value > > in asking the question. > > > > > I agree > > > it is broken so we need to fix it: we should make the option's effect > obvious > > > so that anyone can understand it. I porpose that in place of asking > for a UTC > > > or local selection we query "what time is it?" instead. Two choices > would be > > > presented as (live) timestamps, each simultaneously showing the effec= t > of > > > UTC/local time CMOS setting would have later on the host's wall clock= . > The > > > task of the user is to select the option matching any external > reference he > > > sees fit. > > > > This is not the point of the question though -- once we have a > > timezone selected and the answer to the UTC question the installer > > prompts for the user to set the time; it doesn't really matter what it > > was before.. Despite being exactly what the question asks, it isn't > > really important whether the CMOS clock is currently set to UTC or > > local time. What the installer needs to know is whether the user wants > > the real-time CMOS clock to contain UTC or local time. > > You could use this data to present a time based on CMOS with and without > the TZ offset and derive the correct wall_cmos_clock value. > If you ask timezone first, you could ask the use if thise times are right. But if rtc is afu this won't help so you need a plan for that. Warner Please try to make things better, not just less confusing. > > > -- > Rod Grimes > rgrimes@freebsd.org > > --000000000000439877061ac5d8ca Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Jun 13, 2024, 7:51=E2=80=AFAM Rodney W. Grimes= <freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dn= smgr.net> wrote:
> On Wed= , 12 Jun 2024 at 17:14, Bertrand Petit
> <freebsd-hackers@phoe.frmug.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It is sad to see an option remov= ed because "it confuse users".
>
> It's not only that it's confusing, it's that there is not = much value
> in asking the question.
>
> > I agree
> > it is broken so we need to fix it: we should make the option'= s effect obvious
> > so that anyone can understand it. I porpose that in place of aski= ng for a UTC
> > or local selection we query "what time is it?" instead.= Two choices would be
> > presented as (live) timestamps, each simultaneously showing the e= ffect of
> > UTC/local time CMOS setting would have later on the host's wa= ll clock. The
> > task of the user is to select the option matching any external re= ference he
> > sees fit.
>
> This is not the point of the question though -- once we have a
> timezone selected and the answer to the UTC question the installer
> prompts for the user to set the time; it doesn't really matter wha= t it
> was before.. Despite being exactly what the question asks, it isn'= t
> really important whether the CMOS clock is currently set to UTC or
> local time. What the installer needs to know is whether the user wants=
> the real-time CMOS clock to contain UTC or local time.

You could use this data to present a time based on CMOS with and without the TZ offset and derive the correct wall_cmos_clock value.

If you ask timez= one first, you could ask the use if thise times are right. But if rtc is af= u this won't help so you need a plan for that.
<= br>
Warner=C2=A0


Please try to make things better, not just less confusing.


--
Rod Grimes=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0rgrimes@freebsd.org

--000000000000439877061ac5d8ca-- From nobody Thu Jun 13 14:34:22 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4W0Q0W55F8z5NmRZ for ; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 14:34:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-f53.google.com (mail-io1-f53.google.com [209.85.166.53]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4W0Q0W376cz4Gn7 for ; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 14:34:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-io1-f53.google.com with SMTP id ca18e2360f4ac-7e25bf84b58so40024239f.0 for ; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 07:34:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1718289274; x=1718894074; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=WW1d+QV3VhNwN3c/ddDOxpr0MMhgZMFmDaIVX+c013c=; b=p/PFkuCC835vWFzwAso6PzdvuVpquqBcuZmbREwzZDO1FkYAp/Cuo0TQh/maG3jg3+ cCOvNWjrsc78vw97eJW7Nr+3yO32ZAUM/yIQdAfTRWLnRjjR5YIAPX3QFTJoSZUVo2b4 f9HsnCKuMHh28+Ma8NLgLTm7V9ygR73rkQ4tkCl8fb4yf9zj1XTmQ8dfGZ/m+6HES10T wDw4HWrxduOf95bPRcQ69qubrL2VoMdENU7RhTRMAVDLRj2ZXqfDEemg0OeqDgeK+oxA Pb7Ozdk+JdVbBqlETj218l0AEOiXIhIisiOvNxtjYSxYX0s76HQDGUbvzBGeVcrYAet2 k3+A== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCWEzvlkQ2qXl8jdG0IUvqrlzBVn/KjCi90bfCdn32lS6bPRIMD55whMC+x/GvX107Ij3ZaD8rm+IDU+pq8k+x4nVPK5lXjD8AC3lEY= X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwCx/BxyfC//zmWCnA5zJZUECyCIu9NjEpUjdviX8I3IC1JT/+F S8zpKjMUs9ensLn6vmfHyISrwDxiqx5XKGFmXDsrJ6ncvCVvsZfHETRtmDpx7DnhyVAWUQgOksf eF5EzaXe0rSiz56YzI2ZpNBbi+mT45w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IE2XpBIQyuc7NxqpG817MOcz9SFh+t1R2rvOb6lbwVg+Jq/B1lqaE2iSByKtxcIpobWLAPHeFm4SCHfy9F/xfw= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:2c88:b0:7ea:fc3a:fff6 with SMTP id ca18e2360f4ac-7ebcd0b6c3bmr580308139f.6.1718289273748; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 07:34:33 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202406131350.45DDobuA044814@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> In-Reply-To: <202406131350.45DDobuA044814@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> From: Ed Maste Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2024 10:34:22 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Removing "CMOS clock set to UTC" question To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Bertrand Petit , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4W0Q0W376cz4Gn7 On Thu, 13 Jun 2024 at 09:50, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > > You could use this data to present a time based on CMOS with and without > the TZ offset and derive the correct wall_cmos_clock value. > > Please try to make things better, not just less confusing. Can you please explain how that is making this better? First, on a brand new install the RTC may be off by several hours or days, or may be correct but for a completely wrong timezone, perhaps where the machine was manufactured. So then we'd have to fist pick a timezone, then ask: Is the current time ( ) 10:31 ( ) 15:31 ( ) Something else If you pick "something else" we need to ask the user for the current time, and then still need to ask them whether the RTC should be set to UTC or local time. From nobody Thu Jun 13 15:03:38 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4W0Qf62j8Cz5NpSb for ; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 15:03:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from void@f-m.fm) Received: from fhigh6-smtp.messagingengine.com (fhigh6-smtp.messagingengine.com [103.168.172.157]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4W0Qf548vBz4KYl for ; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 15:03:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from void@f-m.fm) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=f-m.fm header.s=fm1 header.b=bUZikfHf; dkim=pass header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm1 header.b=Q96x8KsL; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=f-m.fm; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of void@f-m.fm designates 103.168.172.157 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=void@f-m.fm Received: from compute7.internal (compute7.nyi.internal [10.202.2.48]) by mailfhigh.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91041114010A for ; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 11:03:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute7.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 13 Jun 2024 11:03:40 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=f-m.fm; h=cc :content-type:content-type:date:date:from:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject:subject:to:to; s=fm1; t=1718291020; x=1718377420; bh=tycxFmBno7qpYCWGRus3XwRwbWsd88nE hYi0w57OBWk=; b=bUZikfHfwnaXy2G01gTSep0CetEjgSVWMB7bHrD2HkPMkfJt ard9PUYeanV3d8P/zgRKguktFa5d5US9J9zL6io3BToSvq8mZMk91Tt4ZJuTOn43 KCCVz4PVO2iR/M+X5hnI1Xoh2BI1TuYdp3ErMgza8neTBs86Fxce498u7QDdh46G St1tKM6klbg5feUQdoUAw73u0nmoOXWeZdzFR/7B/+KlOs+VNuczaTfxdzx6B2U6 vBXfYmeMOQWYD5nu+ybMk9heibfbpoE/RUoVUCUiPz1zKuoH2KLYT9gE30XPFPzL cPOaDahjx9uNtYJ6hSHgK3nLiTxyocyfUmUJiQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:content-type:date:date :feedback-id:feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to:message-id :mime-version:reply-to:subject:subject:to:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; t= 1718291020; x=1718377420; bh=tycxFmBno7qpYCWGRus3XwRwbWsd88nEhYi 0w57OBWk=; b=Q96x8KsL+DfGYaHix6r75mh9w6tgsaqrH3MhLjdkOweWpTql9x0 4KUAZtQddGZFwnXOrEkAMRpWRuChmXeJC1xQn+FsYUeB4Q2yb5bs1MfKfPgPnJEL skciDR7N5iOUKZp2B2qVNThwy5jwrQNTG+LWKyzAyJYBEXrfmESSHIkF906+e6yy dGFuPvbWj80+eJ4T0AKlSaw+Vu6VOrcII23HkLqrrov+zft2JsP1765uTy7M9J1Z hxPM0eFqYJmPJ+YXncAUu1Hm6imSExg8nvgI+2z0JcObxnZap1fCDmXlSVbHJoQt JSBfIh9UuE95KnDb8CVTkuu0ZVyhAW/iu3A== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvledrfedujedgkeduucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpeffhffvuffkgggtugesthdtredttd dtvdenucfhrhhomhepvhhoihguuceovhhoihgusehfqdhmrdhfmheqnecuggftrfgrthht vghrnhepgeetvdfhledtvefgheehfeetgffhuedukeejkefgieeuteegudeileelheetge dtnecuffhomhgrihhnpeduthhhihhsihhsohhnrgdqtghurhhrvghnthhhohhsthdrihgu necuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepvhhoih gusehfqdhmrdhfmh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i2541463c:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 11:03:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2024 16:03:38 +0100 From: void To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: jail creation question Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.60 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.999]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[f-m.fm,none]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[f-m.fm:s=fm1,messagingengine.com:s=fm1]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:103.168.172.128/27]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[103.168.172.157:from]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[f-m.fm]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[f-m.fm]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[f-m.fm:+,messagingengine.com:+]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; ASN(0.00)[asn:209242, ipnet:103.168.172.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[messagingengine.com:dkim] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4W0Qf548vBz4KYl Hi, When poudriere creates a jail, where does it put the .obj files? Do they remain after the build completes? The jail creation is like this: poudriere jail -c -j 141R-amd64 -J32 -m git+https -v releng/14.1 This is on a -current host. I'd not expect it to write to /usr/obj on the host. -- From nobody Thu Jun 13 15:09:03 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4W0QmY1NCwz5Npvd for ; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 15:09:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-f182.google.com (mail-il1-f182.google.com [209.85.166.182]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4W0QmX3l30z4M70; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 15:09:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed), No valid DKIM" header.from=freebsd.org (policy=none); spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of carpeddiem@gmail.com designates 209.85.166.182 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=carpeddiem@gmail.com Received: by mail-il1-f182.google.com with SMTP id e9e14a558f8ab-36dd56cf5f5so4246795ab.3; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 08:09:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1718291355; x=1718896155; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=6rDkuLmIP1m9WvZ01QGW1GPgpdqU9sL1o0GZHIOSMIM=; b=h9hMbYmrybs0mXnKf83YuXc/lI7nAizQOG0N1rWcjGKjq2ksbahozbmXrbRwLUjlx0 4CHvpOAWC4OKTZ1WEJvfp6JVYCEhgl3wWZpBe9s50ev1U8lvKdcLU7ur8sOJwyr2tl8R uwyIRO6ZQea8bPynTZwYHq2ZCpg7Pv/LuRA0m6TFK/Od1Kxh10XWxBKZj46478eSeymA vAi+SWfR/DikF3k5BwyalEepZ/pGVz/6hz0sdwDHHBhd4QhHV0h0Dw7TmwccBs3dIVAf MU/jpYunjmIrm/iVUWufGVPS6Wqos/XNfen3Bfw0wRfsd/SDiUxH4q7e4rChGGOB84FN S8jg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yw9KWXjAcynhZRBDgGvrTlyK9v4xK7GWtv8QX03rXIkr5SxF+56 1oaSQ3NhHzBtGqqv/LknmuNuoNMdZDoqQSaihGJFLXhTvKLHxknc3Rg59ttfF10KDyhZ0atg01j s6sc+v8deg2/C0y+KB/sny+71wx7QVw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHGPBqRJbeqwQIMtQkP8es11SsY4mJQqhVqd8pALLRfTbY+OdX+pKZi+Bn1Y0Q20gEwzQRc/ORgr1yiNY69dlc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:218b:b0:375:aafe:72de with SMTP id e9e14a558f8ab-375cd1659b9mr54777185ab.16.1718291355036; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 08:09:15 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Ed Maste Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2024 11:09:03 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Removing "CMOS clock set to UTC" question To: "Constantine A. Murenin" Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.78 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.88)[-0.881]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[emaste@freebsd.org,carpeddiem@gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17:c]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[freebsd.org : SPF not aligned (relaxed), No valid DKIM,none]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[carpeddiem]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[209.85.166.182:from]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[209.85.166.182:from]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[emaste@freebsd.org,carpeddiem@gmail.com]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4W0QmX3l30z4M70 On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 at 14:14, Constantine A. Murenin wrote: > > On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 at 11:23, Ed Maste wrote: > > > > Our installer asks (via tzsetup): > > > > > Is this machine's CMOS clock set to UTC? If it is set to local time, > > > or you don't know, please choose NO here! > > > > I've heard many reports of new users being confused by this question > > when installing FreeBSD for the first time. I don't think it provides > > much value; it is a minor convenience for dual-booting with Windows > > but imposes a cost on everyone installing FreeBSD. It is trivial to > > configure the system to use local time in the system's real-time clock > > by creating /etc/wall_cmos_clock. Other operating systems do not ask, > > they just default to local time (Windows) or UTC (everyone else). > > > > I've proposed removing the question from bsdinstall in > > https://reviews.freebsd.org/D45569. > > Perhaps the confusion arises from the implied default being "NO" > instead of a "YES"? There are several sources of confusion I think --Mark Delany's response did a good job of highlighting them. > In a way, the proposed patch actually both changes the default and > removes the question. Which may end up being more confusing unless > expressly advertised as such. The default behaviour in FreeBSD (ignoring tzsetup or bsdinstall) is to store UTC in the RTC. Creating /etc/wall_cmos_clock configures the system to use local time instead. tzsetup certainly implies that answering NO is the default choice (by recommending that choice if you don't know), which creates the file and uses local time. > If the intention is to simply change the implied default, maybe that's > exactly what should be done instead? E.g., move the "don't know" > category into a "YES" suggestion. Making it "If you don't know, choose YES" is probably better, but the question is still troublesome. As another reply in this thread pointed out, the user may not know what time is in the RTC during installation, which is what is being asked but is not actually what the installer needs to know. From nobody Thu Jun 13 15:32:10 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4W0RHD4sXrz5Ns34 for ; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 15:32:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-f177.google.com (mail-il1-f177.google.com [209.85.166.177]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4W0RHD0pvfz4P24 for ; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 15:32:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-il1-f177.google.com with SMTP id e9e14a558f8ab-3758fdbd2daso4235005ab.3 for ; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 08:32:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1718292743; x=1718897543; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=6XiUaYnJIwCQF+uwS+3zyvq0irAlCNSvIfhgUtGqcnQ=; b=Z06h5tvwjWqSvIiuKYOA7i7opyYFz7UxK5YDJkrc8ophc8Eik9g+vwQp/PfHE/3qha 14tgXIeASOa+7iSJIaE60Qw1+vlV+INGn/LzyvN9lCEJToXH60Ku4gGma3h9V72suDjU 0Ya4mNw3/r7xEKO8mJCEwVfsFU6TnpphP5zmBnUFqko6AUR97b6A+7qV9ZYIgwLwBinc F1/5dMTa60ZyMTKP68d1iFS8jOpGr5Lu9sqFfqstC+m2uDOwB+w3QYLAQQmzpqCkwhoH ptMMFP5v+PX5jUF6xqtShoGRHrLRh/lhTelOTe4CvMucjhAjGZVZrxxNc2S8vO+gpoac zWwg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yy3KsT7YZSx0jdjTlU4hgfSvUuOFmBvwXFdP/VZ3qZr5FKQ2vhZ FCqq5Q64pFIXHJoWh5WKedIH3Rzp6o4EXItrnsQIkUwS6b9gjHvJjmqtrYp2QDZQwSxQxnY7Bgv 83deAZX/CESp6GzrsgSiVqqFNNJTxm/rz X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHMow6YgXizeIQJuAfVd4+lfYUTg3CN2c4oT7ZV1Dp6d+19p5uaof6+eD0YSiWI3M4aRObsIGMOGOvatasMceU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:138e:b0:375:a3d8:97be with SMTP id e9e14a558f8ab-375cd16a30bmr51156305ab.9.1718292742671; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 08:32:22 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20240613075137.c734a227e578996013d3bcc7@dec.sakura.ne.jp> In-Reply-To: <20240613075137.c734a227e578996013d3bcc7@dec.sakura.ne.jp> From: Ed Maste Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2024 11:32:10 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Removing "CMOS clock set to UTC" question To: Tomoaki AOKI Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4W0RHD0pvfz4P24 On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 at 18:51, Tomoaki AOKI wrote: > > tzsetup(8) manpage is a bit confusing. > Does `tzsetup -s` create /etc/wall_cmos_clock when it's not exist and > selected timezone is NOT UTC? No, with -s tzsetup neither creates nor removes /etc/wall_cmos_clock. I've created https://reviews.freebsd.org/D45576 to clarify this in tzsetup(8) and would appreciate review. > Unfortunately, most of computers used by end-users (personal or > corporate) would running Windows. Does emulated CMOS clocks on VMware, > virtualBox and/or something else on Windows shows always UTC, or wall > CMOS clock same as host Windows? For the last 10 years we've skipped this question when running in a VM: commit e91afc1cda50cbcb8fffa3f52cc0f8c595a392a3 Author: Devin Teske Date: Tue Nov 11 19:37:17 2014 +0000 Default `bsdconfig timezone' and `tzsetup' to `-s' in a VM. Recommended by: cperciva Reviewed by: cperciva Relnotes: tzsetup and bsdconfig now assume that the "hardware" clock inside a VM is set to UTC VirtualBox has an option to indicate that the RTC stores UTC time, I assume others do as well. There's a VirtIO RTC interface that provides (among others) a UTC clock. From nobody Thu Jun 13 17:01:02 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4W0TFc6wKZz5P0Lf for ; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 17:01:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from steffen@sdaoden.eu) Received: from sdaoden.eu (sdaoden.eu [217.144.132.164]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4W0TFc3P7Tz4XGS; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 17:01:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from steffen@sdaoden.eu) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sdaoden.eu; s=citron; t=1718298064; x=1718964730; h=date:author:from:to:cc:subject: message-id:in-reply-to:references:openpgp:blahblahblah:mime-version: content-type:content-transfer-encoding:author:from:subject:date:to:cc: resent-author:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender:resent-to:resent-cc: resent-reply-to:resent-message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version: content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:content-id: content-description:message-id:mail-followup-to:openpgp:blahblahblah; bh=jLnOk/M7HxDgzJde7pbMEoqFTEvTFPV5UTRvSisqFns=; b=d7HtGtFVmg0FPWWFKWbWg46TPJ2GEv2gV4cPM4JBGusivx9LXcHeEFWZtmwWhLNPRFkLI4If YaOdc48polLxNJXrOOuTMK44El7kMjrQz+MFCQaPqPLinDG9VoTFX20np3xBP9WYHxVJk/WHMq 9/NsKz59/o0tNSslNQCv0+aWpL0F+sR8kwOjC/90s8aVYf50EwgUvNo+HB4rRlPkK7IQ0VQD8s A5syASHQL3k0emUAmhSRNZfb3tv5R4Iv5Do9B6PI/jn+8UQ6bKWbHSYthhEDn8hkoddMfCsfQz uTm0b7/BiuVXSzEHS/cXrTQWbcK6hZH6HvIMSGvV0T2lvNRA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=ed25519-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sdaoden.eu; s=orange; t=1718298064; x=1718964730; h=date:author:from:to:cc:subject: message-id:in-reply-to:references:openpgp:blahblahblah:mime-version: content-type:content-transfer-encoding:author:from:subject:date:to:cc: resent-author:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender:resent-to:resent-cc: resent-reply-to:resent-message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version: content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:content-id: content-description:message-id:mail-followup-to:openpgp:blahblahblah; bh=jLnOk/M7HxDgzJde7pbMEoqFTEvTFPV5UTRvSisqFns=; b=YSOU7gzUoampwbyKFC7r1r7qaUU9BYSrlDzRz5OOxJj0DhqXBHHAuAsZB2A3j8WHY/TPciWl pKu0oDo1OScwBQ== Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2024 19:01:02 +0200 Author: Steffen Nurpmeso From: Steffen Nurpmeso To: Ed Maste Cc: "Rodney W. Grimes" , Bertrand Petit , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing "CMOS clock set to UTC" question Message-ID: <20240613170102.s6BQpmXu@steffen%sdaoden.eu> In-Reply-To: References: <202406131350.45DDobuA044814@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> User-Agent: s-nail v14.9.24-621-g0d1e55f367 OpenPGP: id=EE19E1C1F2F7054F8D3954D8308964B51883A0DD; url=https://ftp.sdaoden.eu/steffen.asc; preference=signencrypt BlahBlahBlah: Any stupid boy can crush a beetle. But all the professors in the world can make no bugs. List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15987, ipnet:217.144.128.0/20, country:DE] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4W0TFc3P7Tz4XGS Ed Maste wrote in : |On Thu, 13 Jun 2024 at 09:50, Rodney W. Grimes | wrote: |> |> You could use this data to present a time based on CMOS with and without |> the TZ offset and derive the correct wall_cmos_clock value. |> |> Please try to make things better, not just less confusing. | |Can you please explain how that is making this better? | |First, on a brand new install the RTC may be off by several hours or |days, or may be correct but for a completely wrong timezone, perhaps |where the machine was manufactured. So then we'd have to fist pick a |timezone, then ask: | |Is the current time |( ) 10:31 |( ) 15:31 |( ) Something else | |If you pick "something else" we need to ask the user for the current |time, and then still need to ask them whether the RTC should be set to |UTC or local time. I feel you have your "expert hat" of decades of programmer knowledge on. The thing that is plain is that the questions are too sharply edged (i had a bad experience with "something similar" in the network area of a NetBSD 10 install), normal users then stand in front of a wall and shake their heads. See for example what the Linux hwclock(8) says (once installed): LOCAL vs UTC Keeping the Hardware Clock in a local timescale causes inconsistent daylight saving time results: =E2=80=A2 If Linux is running during a daylight saving time change, = the time written to the Hardware Clock will be adjusted for the change. =E2=80=A2 If Linux is NOT running during a daylight saving time chan= ge, the time read from the Hardware Clock will NOT be adjusted for the change. The Hardware Clock on an ISA compatible system keeps only a date and ^ scratch ISA time, it has no concept of timezone nor daylight saving. Therefore, wh= en hwclock is told that it is in local time, it assumes it is in the 'correct' local time and makes no adjustments to the time read from it. Linux handles daylight saving time changes transparently only when the Hardware Clock is kept in the UTC timescale. Doing so is made easy for system administrators as hwclock uses local time for its output and as the argument to the --date option. ^ Some insight, some context!! POSIX systems, like Linux, are designed to have the System Clock opera= te in the UTC timescale. The Hardware Clock=E2=80=99s purpose is to initi= alize the System Clock, so also keeping it in UTC makes sense. ^ Uh-oh! Linux does, however, attempt to accommodate the Hardware Clock being in the local timescale. This is primarily for dual-booting with older versions of MS Windows. From Windows 7 on, the RealTimeIsUniversal registry key is supposed to be working properly so that its Hardware Clock can be kept in UTC. ^ Ah-ha! Now if you buy something with preinstalled Windows, it is likely you boot it first. (I *had*, i even had to keep Windows, because Linux kernels (4.19 and) 5.10 would at times make the Wifi unusable, it required a boot (not in)to Windows to properly (re)initialize the thing. (Cries to explain or document rtw88_pci.disable_aspm=3D1 then were left unanswered, in addition.) This means your clock is already set .. no? But even if not, with an excerpt of the above, plus the time as read from the clock, a user could be enabled to make a profound decision (based on "current" context). imho. Having said that i realize that the (super large) preinstalled FreeBSD VM qcow2 images i personally use for some years (no on bare metal currently) just work out of the box, correctly as it seems. Thank you. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) From nobody Fri Jun 14 10:26:02 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4W0x8W56yJz5NffN for ; Fri, 14 Jun 2024 10:58:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yuri@FreeBSD.org) Received: from shell1.rawbw.com (shell1.rawbw.com [198.144.192.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4W0x8V74YSz4FXc for ; Fri, 14 Jun 2024 10:58:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yuri@FreeBSD.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=freebsd.org (policy=none); spf=softfail (mx1.freebsd.org: 198.144.192.42 is neither permitted nor denied by domain of yuri@FreeBSD.org) smtp.mailfrom=yuri@FreeBSD.org Received: from [192.168.5.3] (c-98-42-44-116.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [98.42.44.116]) (authenticated bits=0) by shell1.rawbw.com (8.15.1/8.15.1) with ESMTPSA id 45EAQ3sq024829 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 14 Jun 2024 03:26:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yuri@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: shell1.rawbw.com: Host c-98-42-44-116.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [98.42.44.116] claimed to be [192.168.5.3] Message-ID: <4188f200-3923-43ed-b913-7358c4208522@FreeBSD.org> Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2024 03:26:02 -0700 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Content-Language: en-US To: Freebsd hackers list From: Yuri Subject: Can all environment be cached atomically? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spamd-Bar: ++ X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.54 / 15.00]; VIOLATED_DIRECT_SPF(3.50)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.17)[-0.175]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.10)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[freebsd.org : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[yuri]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; R_SPF_SOFTFAIL(0.00)[~all]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7961, ipnet:198.144.192.0/23, country:US]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org]; TO_DOM_EQ_FROM_DOM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4W0x8V74YSz4FXc Imagine the situation when a process has multiple threads which keep changing environment variables. One of the threads attempts to cache all environment variables. I am curious whether the whole environment can be cached atomically, as it exists at some point in time, or this can't be guaranteed and some environment variables would have to be cached at different times? Python's os.environ object is such environment cache, which is created when the Python interpreter is initialized. Thanks, Yuri From nobody Fri Jun 14 11:52:53 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4W0yMf286Cz5Nkm7 for ; Fri, 14 Jun 2024 11:53:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4W0yMf1gTZz4LDK; Fri, 14 Jun 2024 11:53:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1718365982; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=CZHSiHjZ9krsUrCWMuKk6wtiXeV8qW9ndxZuw3oLPGY=; b=xxmP3kYEy4ERHTBw+4RUAjlExV+L1MZw6e8Y6hWLsbcboHorFB/GRA461mXardP8RDvimH 8xJfm182KFvgFxDxsf3jx7kj7alHI7zxbTd0iEhZ33Cd1QoydX86kBRGVjYB71w2SK8DnZ KmcXZsm/vAQnAtI8DBmYnyRemR0zTwmx8rVKM+AowVUgEXElwUoKa92MIu+Io+BtXqHN0R aD6DGBCI1ncrnH3N4or28Pqct9fwg/F9EGuMh2TA7FUMle0MtOMnBsTrImGil/CvX7CDvo 8drv9Em2tYYta94PLLI6eHlO8wc5FXQqf9FSDLCX/iyMDbetbw/f1NA27UAPDA== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1718365982; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=pR4Uy8VmR+72VhbcW2reALstTYe/WyYcMxHttjpI1xmCQcPpNPBlVjDuS+v4w+IsFDOMPr Rxehbnc7p80sbQhEjYMCW/kaUIcL0G4Avt+wvRgQozDXSware4305sk49QPrf2gLSxzdY6 qNHitPMAwcSEXE/Kq1K5BKYPOi/gWd1uF6XK/JQ1pe1vUFrFG8VeKjtx/ybrk8CppMzWWa qM2z5mSqyiP5lqlABk0lUUYagMhGANtCG09ebrPgRDKl+UcfTBrYfD7NhQ4ejB6/D0kecP 3Hybpz7S6Hy2tZxtamP+O/r8Z6bLHCi5LJOQ/LwFHg9sfUVeIXQfK6GZOP5ywg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1718365982; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=CZHSiHjZ9krsUrCWMuKk6wtiXeV8qW9ndxZuw3oLPGY=; b=Xb00702WEa44G4d0Dhm29c5ioGkpTLtaLgOG+xBGdiXDZQEvNE75n+sL0kXVc04yPiwp6x 19i59ZE2PxkMX2mv95OPSfCUkQmTH4QkX7PnKJKZyKyBap8XF1WroX5ZvdWwt2mmifcdLt lH2qb0lCUehcuzBlAIzifVzJ419UGsvoEAqrARwIXj2uF6LXn01+Nf0xN9pgbJWgb0P8O+ cUnEFFIDeKu0F9g/KrRIZRtl/8Jynz8TxnO2z3YyRm3So8ZNjxm/qjKtwgD3R336Jw5+DR KPULw9yqodhIujkvBI1crBpKzjHcodynYivMD+8Mqs7DKBJ2EnTU9Dvab/k+Jw== Received: from smtp.theravensnest.org (smtp.theravensnest.org [45.77.103.195]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: theraven) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4W0yMf1FNKz16xq; Fri, 14 Jun 2024 11:53:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtpclient.apple (host81-131-179-19.range81-131.btcentralplus.com [81.131.179.19]) by smtp.theravensnest.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D179CB650; Fri, 14 Jun 2024 12:53:00 +0100 (BST) From: David Chisnall Message-Id: <635544F9-C62C-49B6-9BAC-104A34235BB3@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3AF8F91B-C277-45BA-BE78-A9F933248DCD" List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3774.600.62\)) Subject: Re: Can all environment be cached atomically? Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2024 12:52:53 +0100 In-Reply-To: <4188f200-3923-43ed-b913-7358c4208522@FreeBSD.org> Cc: Freebsd hackers list To: Yuri References: <4188f200-3923-43ed-b913-7358c4208522@FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3774.600.62) --Apple-Mail=_3AF8F91B-C277-45BA-BE78-A9F933248DCD Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On 14 Jun 2024, at 11:26, Yuri wrote: >=20 > Imagine the situation when a process has multiple threads which keep = changing environment variables. I imagined it. It went like this: SIGSEGV It is undefined behaviour for two threads to change environment = variables without explicit synchronisation of *all* readers and writers = of environment variables. Any multithreaded program that calls `setenv` = is almost certainly wrong. I would suggest that you follow these rules: - Never call setenv. =20 If that can=E2=80=99t be done then: - Never call setenv in a shared library and - Never call setenv in a program after calling any function that *may* = create threads. The first rule is easier to follow. There are *almost* not situations where calling `setenv` is the right = thing to do. The only situation is where you should call it is to work = around poorly designed shared libraries that provide no mechanism for = communicating state to them other than environment variables. Then = it=E2=80=99s not the right thing to do, it=E2=80=99s just the thing that = you have to do to work around a bug. Environment variables exist to pass state from the environment into a = newly created process. Any other use is likely to be a mistake. > Python's os.environ object is such environment cache, which is = created when the Python interpreter is initialized. Almost certainly to avoid issues with concurrent writes from poorly = written programs / libraries. David --Apple-Mail=_3AF8F91B-C277-45BA-BE78-A9F933248DCD Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On 14 Jun = 2024, at 11:26, Yuri <yuri@freebsd.org> wrote:

Imagine = the situation when a process has multiple threads which keep changing = environment variables.

I = imagined it.  It went like = this:

SIGSEGV

It is = undefined behaviour for two threads to change environment variables = without explicit synchronisation of *all* readers and writers of = environment variables.  Any multithreaded program that calls = `setenv` is almost certainly wrong.  I would suggest that you = follow these rules:

 - Never call setenv. =  

If that can=E2=80=99t be done = then:

 - Never call setenv in a shared = library and
 - Never call setenv in a program after = calling any function that *may* create = threads.

The first rule is easier to = follow.

There are *almost* not situations where = calling `setenv` is the right thing to do.  The only situation is = where you should call it is to work around poorly designed shared = libraries that provide no mechanism for communicating state to them = other than environment variables.  Then it=E2=80=99s not the right = thing to do, it=E2=80=99s just the thing that you have to do to work = around a bug.

Environment variables exist to = pass state from the environment into a newly created process.  Any = other use is likely to be a = mistake.

 Python's os.environ object = is such environment cache, which is created when the Python interpreter = is initialized.

Almost = certainly to avoid issues with concurrent writes from poorly written = programs / = libraries.

David

= --Apple-Mail=_3AF8F91B-C277-45BA-BE78-A9F933248DCD-- From nobody Sat Jun 15 00:00:53 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4W1GWT4nSvz5MJZ3; Sat, 15 Jun 2024 00:00:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from salvadore@freebsd.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:6074::16:84]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "freefall.freebsd.org", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4W1GWT41NKz4nVJ; Sat, 15 Jun 2024 00:00:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from salvadore@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1718409653; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc; bh=Zo/nxmY3NMGzs/HocIrbPCQuSo5fsPZ9J+VRhg7pgRI=; b=BmXpTEnXKfoikxGyck0PIOkZxmX0oSBzFLMZQuC59VwG2YT08oBzIm/Mm2T1u2dv4279vg KSR5/RhzqZMkuwNF0AcFDJHiajh6Ix2JxuJ72Rx8kf8fT9S7T+j9wNfSJ1NAY6VzM/2twq 4w9/T29+tmU7JFqN//lgMIwofMMHUuUC60yefUVygOTgmwEjGNq8TNNDvgHfBlaYot7zg/ CRaAiCKrfGunT02/kn2WAGKkI7+4f1RFRLVmvuMwnqIXJ6764BXe8DUnBYrVhDZRsyk2pb ggyTx8+eoBLP7x3Tq4Pt1OP+nKeK9rU/+bn3qpJPHmVr9FeGnS2cgONgh+IM/A== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1718409653; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=kvkV+3E6Xe+VSv1xTwQjBcaNWbqx9G1362joPwIrgsuW7hqCAnKWmWqZ9FSVBd3XVW8Iun z4+6Al072wIPu95htdwBrB4lwXjPSZwtwoONXJaX4uM6V/zwSRgrohMhzW1VcgNm553EhJ r9eaiPXrhaQ2HEIoM1LjW5xgHEttNW6AY5mZijn1tLeELZeKTBoNbSk95TfXWBhkK+PKA6 9Zslq7X+yiYSyJAy9L+YxhaUABmz23uQxAez5bOiJJugO8TGRKaeXE+KDFY14pEGzH5zeg wqjejiTXu8+IDDSkQbiViBCQqgnYyDI5AY9Cvs19MiIpLXiz9JmazgEYu/ws+Q== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1718409653; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc; bh=Zo/nxmY3NMGzs/HocIrbPCQuSo5fsPZ9J+VRhg7pgRI=; b=xT+JCujCCxHKan68cALKUVf+aUsO5fhnMjOJKD19yZbS1bEUJ+g95gqXUtNf682gi+sPsU phqRb2+ItdseXPo+xke5LYJIPitaomjHgDYveFEVVg48DQmGFOPsQMxm3xUrHUQPwoq6Wo 1/zcUgOc9evqGYki1EqPihAuUoKTiPE4IkN4KM+lKO2PUx1o++BN9WNsjHjVT6IB9hmDtm 2y1xsrjl7pZt4GlUBnC1r1Y8nQGBYApeNHvOJpRH+ukpbryHRdmE8vvL6HWgBS/WJoFKo7 dpUrqadgBVFpyZj+s91ko77E6YLKYOJS8nY2snHzq4SOB2M9oxcrQjq/cSpvTA== Received: by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 1472) id 51428133AA; Sat, 15 Jun 2024 00:00:53 +0000 (UTC) To: freebsd-status-calls@FreeBSD.org Subject: [2 WEEKS LEFT REMINDER] Call for 2024Q2 status reports Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org,freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org,devsummit@FreeBSD.org,info@bsdcan.org,soc-students@FreeBSD.org,soc-mentors@FreeBSD.org Message-Id: <20240615000053.51428133AA@freefall.freebsd.org> Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2024 00:00:53 +0000 (UTC) From: Lorenzo Salvadore List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Dear FreeBSD Community, The deadline for the next FreeBSD Status Report update is June, 30th 2024 for work done since the last round of quarterly reports: April 2024 - June 2024. I would like to remind you that reports are published on a quarterly basis and are usually collected during the last month of each quarter, You are also welcome to submit them even earlier if you want, and the earlier you submit them, the more time we have for reviewing. Status report submissions do not need to be very long. They may be about anything happening in the FreeBSD project and community, and they provide a great way to inform FreeBSD users and developers about work that is underway or has been completed. Report submissions are not limited to committers; anyone doing anything interesting and FreeBSD related can -- and should -- write one! The following methods are available to submit your reports: * submit a review on Phabricator and add the group "status" to the reviewers list. You should put your reports in the directory doc/website/content/en/status/report-2024-04-2024-06/ (create it if it is missing); * submit a pull request at . You should put your reports in the directory doc/website/content/en/status/report-2024-04-2024-06/ (create it if it is missing); * send an email to status-submissions@FreeBSD.org including your report. An AsciiDoc template is available at . We look forward to seeing your 2024Q2 reports! Thanks, Lorenzo Salvadore (on behalf of status@)