From nobody Mon Aug 5 08:41:32 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Wcqfp6381z5SrY5 for ; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 08:41:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Wcqfm74Mdz4rHY; Mon, 5 Aug 2024 08:41:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.55.3]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 61DF9892BF; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 08:41:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: (from phk@localhost) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.18.1/8.16.1/Submit) id 4758fWV1056499; Mon, 5 Aug 2024 08:41:32 GMT (envelope-from phk) Message-Id: <202408050841.4758fWV1056499@critter.freebsd.dk> To: Alan Somers cc: Warner Losh , FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: A Demo of rust-in-base In-reply-to: From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" References: <202408041800.474I0HUM050473@critter.freebsd.dk> <202408041820.474IKjVV050602@critter.freebsd.dk> <202408041904.474J4b9e050871@critter.freebsd.dk> <202408042038.474KcKrD052069@critter.freebsd.dk> List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <56497.1722847292.1@critter.freebsd.dk> Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2024 08:41:32 +0000 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:1835, ipnet:130.225.0.0/16, country:EU] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Wcqfm74Mdz4rHY -------- Alan Somers writes: > If the fusefs test suite were external, [...] > Any user running the tests would need to build the > port about once per month, if they track stable/13. [...] I understand that, and I share your pain: I've been there myself with code I have maintained for customers. But isn't this a transient problem ? I would expect fusefs, like everything else, to settle down over time ? Also: How many people are we talking about, world-wide ? A dozen ? Four dozens ? Adding Rust to src would inconvenience /everybody/, every time they do a "make buildworld". The solution is not to add Rust to src. The solution is to get rid of the "Src is the holy ivory tower, everything else is barbarians" mentality, which have gotten us into trouble with ISDN, ATM, Perl and much else over the years. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From nobody Mon Aug 5 14:18:51 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Wcz8X3NFHz5S6ky for ; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 14:19:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from omta002.cacentral1.a.cloudfilter.net (omta002.cacentral1.a.cloudfilter.net [3.97.99.33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Wcz8W5DCqz4NB2 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2024 14:19:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=quarantine) header.from=cschubert.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of cy.schubert@cschubert.com designates 3.97.99.33 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=cy.schubert@cschubert.com Received: from shw-obgw-4004a.ext.cloudfilter.net ([10.228.9.227]) by cmsmtp with ESMTPS id athAs8fKyMArNayYUsypOk; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 14:19:22 +0000 Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.66.152.170]) by cmsmtp with ESMTPSA id ayYTsJOYLKHV8ayYUsxTUW; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 14:19:22 +0000 X-Auth-User: cschuber X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.4 cv=XeEqz555 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=66b0df6a a=y8EK/9tc/U6QY+pUhnbtgQ==:117 a=y8EK/9tc/U6QY+pUhnbtgQ==:17 a=_jzkOgRGGJh6tR6o:21 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=yoJbH4e0A30A:10 a=jTnka_m5AAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=EkcXrb_YAAAA:8 a=rBaSulU4iDO-JhjzPxkA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=1dhr_1I44dJbMKvTTStr:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 a=LK5xJRSDVpKd5WXXoEvA:22 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (walden [192.168.0.252]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 958A566CF; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 07:19:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2024 07:18:51 -0700 From: Cy Schubert To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Bakul Shah , FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <704D020F-78A4-4926-AE3C-41F7FD619A89@cschubert.com> List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4xfN7DGj3H0k7jDNTMizEKYMkHJ4IDX38iLt6kx7sUo6tw9li5ngs4S0HdN/trwFjrWRiVIfCrgqyfHjOzEnl7sRlXpE5yBL2IhmxMX+p0ao7HPGFSZvZJ V7n+QoEUxWB//Oe0UqL5Rpgb7r9d4D6XrNZWoOjsK2vpUkxH5VOdhXtJ3BZcpo16jGu90jVi4fDjL4l6qi6xkWHqrSedhB4atXkMrvxlP9nU1zvL0Q14r0dL 0RrlNwV2Jb/uWR/KOiLupA== X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.60 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[cschubert.com,quarantine]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.50)[-0.497]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_VERYGOOD(-0.20)[3.97.99.33:from]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:3.97.99.32/31]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[3.97.99.33:from]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16509, ipnet:3.96.0.0/15, country:US]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Wcz8W5DCqz4NB2 On July 31, 2024 10:49:52 AM PDT, Bakul Shah wrote: >All this talk won't lead to anything much so a suggestion to >those who want Rust in the FreeBSD base: why not exec it in a >fork? That'll force you to solve practical problems, give you >good experience [may be even cure you of this strange desire >;-)] and If it looks like a success, more people will join=2E > Sorry for being late to the party=2E Last day of vacation; picking up phon= e reading this thread=2E Like much in this business (been doing this stuff for about 50 years now) = there is a cohort unwilling to roll up their sleeves and put some skin in t= he game, expecting others already with long todo lists to drop everything t= o produce the desired result=2E To them I say, build a proof of concept and= show us=2E --=20 Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: https://FreeBSD=2Eorg NTP: Web: https://nwtime=2Eorg e^(i*pi)+1=3D0 Pardon the typos=2E Tiny keyboard in use=2E From nobody Mon Aug 5 21:01:49 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Wd8Tm6CgGz5SjkG for ; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 21:19:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from steffen@sdaoden.eu) Received: from sdaoden.eu (sdaoden.eu [217.144.132.164]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Wd8Tm3G3Jz3yjD for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2024 21:19:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from steffen@sdaoden.eu) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sdaoden.eu; s=citron; t=1722892787; x=1723559453; h=date:author:from:to:cc:subject: message-id:in-reply-to:references:openpgp:blahblahblah:author:from: subject:date:to:cc:resent-author:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender: resent-to:resent-cc:resent-reply-to:resent-message-id:in-reply-to: references:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding: content-disposition:content-id:content-description:message-id: mail-followup-to:openpgp:blahblahblah; bh=Hf9X79iLqC0BWGkfIo4MWUnJM+b1EDPu4gAbpChxFJY=; b=m91wg/40Zoeloi9t4fJ+0jImqadRi0slYYGqTYTbOEgqEpWlYe0WmUO63QiddQcXmZNpnHML UyZTMffbeQXiDc4e1amgRcxKwdsIjgTWo34C14mjyu1r4zbuveRg/pPQYuobncqFWGohn27SOj o6xwVkCGtZh3bhhIZKasdgbYAcd8RTMLs8LJ7mfCVjH9ahTnp/tGkcLWkTwoRyqt+dzXT4g0PV /BgZlgxqek0Hf3CDtP8N+6tlTINMJZErTTOw3eiOOmdKtCRRyD4iR9meWuRABJzH5/120Lal/L QoMmz8Jh9udPOqChmJ0q0jgobLxqK2JwonqHasL8dt6kX87g== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=ed25519-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sdaoden.eu; s=orange; t=1722892787; x=1723559453; h=date:author:from:to:cc:subject: message-id:in-reply-to:references:openpgp:blahblahblah:author:from: subject:date:to:cc:resent-author:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender: resent-to:resent-cc:resent-reply-to:resent-message-id:in-reply-to: references:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding: content-disposition:content-id:content-description:message-id: mail-followup-to:openpgp:blahblahblah; bh=Hf9X79iLqC0BWGkfIo4MWUnJM+b1EDPu4gAbpChxFJY=; b=VdFe92Bs1NzglIuTDiwVa2nt8EEAnV6Xt8yKEhEB1eaKu3lOGpPcj9BbZ3Pzw17ZeWxwNW2s JOgkXfcG9hUiAg== Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2024 23:01:49 +0200 Author: Steffen Nurpmeso From: Steffen Nurpmeso To: Cy Schubert Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Bakul Shah Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) Message-ID: <20240805210149.nrkHN3j3@steffen%sdaoden.eu> In-Reply-To: <704D020F-78A4-4926-AE3C-41F7FD619A89@cschubert.com> References: <704D020F-78A4-4926-AE3C-41F7FD619A89@cschubert.com> User-Agent: s-nail v14.9.24-621-g0d1e55f367 OpenPGP: id=EE19E1C1F2F7054F8D3954D8308964B51883A0DD; url=https://ftp.sdaoden.eu/steffen.asc; preference=signencrypt BlahBlahBlah: Any stupid boy can crush a beetle. But all the professors in the world can make no bugs. X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15987, ipnet:217.144.128.0/20, country:DE] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Wd8Tm3G3Jz3yjD List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Cy Schubert wrote in <704D020F-78A4-4926-AE3C-41F7FD619A89@cschubert.com>: |On July 31, 2024 10:49:52 AM PDT, Bakul Shah wrote: |>All this talk won't lead to anything much so a suggestion to .. |Sorry for being late to the party. Last day of vacation; picking up \ |phone reading this thread. | |Like much in this business (been doing this stuff for about 50 years \ |now) there is a cohort unwilling to roll up their sleeves and put some \ |skin in the game, expecting others already with long todo lists to \ Most user space tools could be written in lua. This already is in base, it is memory safe, it is very small and pretty fast, allows easy C integration for cases most FreeBSD system tools never need. It can be learned pretty easily, and it is very productive. It also has the coolness factor of Unix, for example echo '#!/usr/bin/lua' > /bin/true chmod 0755 /bin/true cp /bin/true /bin/false echo 'os.exit(1)' >> /bin/false implements two basic system tools in lua. (They are portable!) One could also imagine that a basic FreeBSD lua library, one that makes access to ioctls, sysctls and basic C constants easy, would benefit FreeBSD, as it seems a not small number of projects / companies use lua for certain parts of "their thing", like user interfaces or whatever. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) | | Only during dog days: | On the 81st anniversary of the Goebbel's Sportpalast speech | von der Leyen gave an overlong hypocritical inauguration one. | The brew's essence of our civilizing advancement seems o be: | Total war - shortest war -> Permanent war - everlasting war From nobody Mon Aug 5 21:27:24 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Wd8fZ56Pbz5SkXl for ; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 21:27:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Wd8fZ2xVgz416p for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2024 21:27:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.55.3]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4A2C5892B6; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 21:27:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: (from phk@localhost) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.18.1/8.16.1/Submit) id 475LROnE067608; Mon, 5 Aug 2024 21:27:24 GMT (envelope-from phk) Message-Id: <202408052127.475LROnE067608@critter.freebsd.dk> To: Steffen Nurpmeso cc: Cy Schubert , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Bakul Shah Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) In-reply-to: <20240805210149.nrkHN3j3@steffen%sdaoden.eu> From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" References: <704D020F-78A4-4926-AE3C-41F7FD619A89@cschubert.com> <20240805210149.nrkHN3j3@steffen%sdaoden.eu> List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <67606.1722893244.1@critter.freebsd.dk> Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2024 21:27:24 +0000 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:1835, ipnet:130.225.0.0/16, country:EU] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Wd8fZ2xVgz416p -------- Steffen Nurpmeso writes: > Cy Schubert wrote in > <704D020F-78A4-4926-AE3C-41F7FD619A89@cschubert.com>: > |On July 31, 2024 10:49:52 AM PDT, Bakul Shah wrote: > |>All this talk won't lead to anything much so a suggestion to > .. > |Sorry for being late to the party. Last day of vacation; picking up \ > |phone reading this thread. > | > |Like much in this business (been doing this stuff for about 50 years \ > |now) there is a cohort unwilling to roll up their sleeves and put some \ > |skin in the game, expecting others already with long todo lists to \ > > Most user space tools could be written in lua. That /exact/ same argument was made for Perl :-) -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From nobody Mon Aug 5 21:32:17 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Wd8mG37d4z5Skg4 for ; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 21:32:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-pj1-x1032.google.com (mail-pj1-x1032.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1032]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Wd8mG1Hpmz42Zx for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2024 21:32:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-pj1-x1032.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2cb510cd097so62639a91.1 for ; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 14:32:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1722893548; x=1723498348; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=TSGa+1m/X6n3EQrV0hRSSlTaYOmm6Q28SCAMVXQ/Nts=; b=QrBR6udDg6HEi4limpaPD3oZ7H4XQXG4/FFptiGCk8F8yBN8lPMhhm6/w8z3SRSUTf GGbqioS38dp7n3Nf7v5QbAMeLjzJsNXfpleW4hxsYJEhIqdgyuDm2LQFKU3B8YwG26hD izDgS5s3JFPCJ/yi6vaaOVYjq8tPrdQRgubIgPsIHwiAoIeqeUGGKDtLEYm+/Kgko23w f1oTCekca3Ou/bi0ftfb/Pq46cvZxPtufqRxscPNABOayuPvrgJo+qk2KVkOPl3+2cpW MX5ej+nwbmYAVXb3fDvm/jQv/PTu7+SbCpJVITagqxNeoyxnntd6utfG+NCQZN3rqVLj /kSA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1722893548; x=1723498348; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=TSGa+1m/X6n3EQrV0hRSSlTaYOmm6Q28SCAMVXQ/Nts=; b=tmPkoYoi22GDRGzMfr4lY8kQWFbWQZ4oMws5gJcyVpzPZrqzx7xDnM+iAsTy+vb7Cu kt4N5FUdlcKPQy+qNMtFf+w2nOOCqkCfM/aict+QCz9OgBDTsY0912967BaBEYUK4U6E kUBPf8RT7NxlQx0u7w+1JG8xuto0SN+j9rAlfKSnXL/0uyFdik6tTHRVbUCi6okkIkaK 978AJX25XBtV+qI/tdlZNSMxoe9ylCtU2/5Q2iQYRrpdxRzi3tOq8UhI+jyD3FotyQ1t wGWjxQvhHnqywyAej6tfp7cyY6mjZ/BEVBBBMyCX9YDt60/l0wz6XqGwmFKyvVNTdeEc EVxA== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCUsJek1WQ+kTyVqMATPGcDj8HCAMCrnVl0r/SGcQr96lT0qKm/JofbeV9ckPJbecqb8A55X5zRUac4w4c8mHzPnu0kTZOMOReiWhyY= X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzT7AISwNXP6GOA9yQV7VevWzvzroeZBeP7/Ut+eLS3Rj7fQdh6 gijlLEzR5tlD1ifU7d8kfGaR2LCLg8DEKuELfeLSN87tPOPIbJAFXRbuouA9dJOEszM92OwZqJ4 ETOv6JR7kNCOIOtdapsKWcXvDfs902y1SpGQ1RA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGmPPS2yBLdNSG6mIt3SOPPkH70sTwakld4I8dKIGYRq42QkZbAA+DtQbLG4LinHiSnba2fGPQeixK3TTMW4jU= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:bb94:b0:2c9:a151:44fb with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2cff94655efmr15865416a91.22.1722893548165; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 14:32:28 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <704D020F-78A4-4926-AE3C-41F7FD619A89@cschubert.com> <20240805210149.nrkHN3j3@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <202408052127.475LROnE067608@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: <202408052127.475LROnE067608@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Warner Losh Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2024 15:32:17 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: Steffen Nurpmeso , Cy Schubert , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Bakul Shah Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ecb6bc061ef6694a" X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Wd8mG1Hpmz42Zx --000000000000ecb6bc061ef6694a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 3:27=E2=80=AFPM Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > -------- > Steffen Nurpmeso writes: > > Cy Schubert wrote in > > <704D020F-78A4-4926-AE3C-41F7FD619A89@cschubert.com>: > > |On July 31, 2024 10:49:52 AM PDT, Bakul Shah > wrote: > > |>All this talk won't lead to anything much so a suggestion to > > .. > > |Sorry for being late to the party. Last day of vacation; picking up \ > > |phone reading this thread. > > | > > |Like much in this business (been doing this stuff for about 50 years = \ > > |now) there is a cohort unwilling to roll up their sleeves and put som= e > \ > > |skin in the game, expecting others already with long todo lists to \ > > > > Most user space tools could be written in lua. > > That /exact/ same argument was made for Perl :-) > Lua's been in the base since I imported it for the boot loader, though... Warner --000000000000ecb6bc061ef6694a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 3:27=E2=80=AFP= M Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freeb= sd.dk> wrote:
--------
Steffen Nurpmeso writes:
> Cy Schubert wrote in
>=C2=A0 <704D020F-78A4-4926-AE3C-41F7FD619A89@cschubert.= com>:
>=C2=A0 |On July 31, 2024 10:49:52 AM PDT, Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrot= e:
>=C2=A0 |>All this talk won't lead to anything much so a suggesti= on to
>=C2=A0 ..
>=C2=A0 |Sorry for being late to the party. Last day of vacation; pickin= g up \
>=C2=A0 |phone reading this thread.
>=C2=A0 |
>=C2=A0 |Like much in this business (been doing this stuff for about 50 = years \
>=C2=A0 |now) there is a cohort unwilling to roll up their sleeves and p= ut some \
>=C2=A0 |skin in the game, expecting others already with long todo lists= to \
>
> Most user space tools could be written in lua.

That /exact/ same argument was made for Perl :-)

<= /div>
Lua's been in the base since I imported it for the boot loade= r, though...

Warner=C2=A0
--000000000000ecb6bc061ef6694a-- From nobody Mon Aug 5 22:06:43 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Wd9Wp6JtVz5SmsV for ; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 22:06:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Wd9Wp2G72z46Fn for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2024 22:06:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.55.3]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D143892B6; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 22:06:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: (from phk@localhost) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.18.1/8.16.1/Submit) id 475M6h8E067967; Mon, 5 Aug 2024 22:06:43 GMT (envelope-from phk) Message-Id: <202408052206.475M6h8E067967@critter.freebsd.dk> To: Warner Losh cc: Steffen Nurpmeso , Cy Schubert , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Bakul Shah Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) In-reply-to: From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" References: <704D020F-78A4-4926-AE3C-41F7FD619A89@cschubert.com> <20240805210149.nrkHN3j3@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <202408052127.475LROnE067608@critter.freebsd.dk> List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <67965.1722895603.1@critter.freebsd.dk> Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2024 22:06:43 +0000 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:1835, ipnet:130.225.0.0/16, country:EU] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Wd9Wp2G72z46Fn -------- Warner Losh writes: > > > Most user space tools could be written in lua. > > > > That /exact/ same argument was made for Perl :-) > > Lua's been in the base since I imported it for the boot loader, though... Lua is is much more "language" than "eco-system", by design as I understand it, so that is a different situation than Perl or Rust. I personally do not subscribe to to the "let's rewrite all the 50 year old source code to make it more safe" philosophy, but there are valid arguments when the old code is horrible. But there are some wrinkles. First: Anything setuid/setgid is off-limits. There are good reasons why we dont have setuid shell-scripts (any more!) I guess with most systems being effectively single-user these days, that may not be as much a security focus as it was back in the 1990ies. Second: Performance. I cannot remember the exact subset of bin programs somebody did in Perl as proof of concept, but it slowed down buildworld a LOT to fire up all of Perl to do trivial stuff like "echo", "chown" and "mkdir". Lua may be cheaper than Perl, but it will still be measurable. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From nobody Mon Aug 5 22:19:23 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Wd9pd2qPDz5Sp3x for ; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 22:19:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-pg1-x52e.google.com (mail-pg1-x52e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Wd9pd0xcrz47lt for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2024 22:19:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-pg1-x52e.google.com with SMTP id 41be03b00d2f7-7a0e8b76813so7470187a12.3 for ; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 15:19:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1722896375; x=1723501175; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=rF/QFYE5FhGm48Anfg0xUIsZIBfwBJc9p88a6Lrl1eI=; b=vAaNCMtRoBHCUGbjZfBavAHZE+IYVi5zEp76OAJqK+NmefVzFFnTN2qP0nb+FKu4VU jwZOEODxTRxFDY9Z+6EPSXbvgpzaKJsPbFNqy8lY2pJ+1sPpBDaKTyMrTCOEQRcqxNPq cf6zIV8nphZH+uRgcmktVigJ/Nj+qsxz98JOpL+RLwJ1uCbxsv7hBsTpYf7H4qbZTSy1 0hR7XUktJN9myCcNygQZBjPJotl0L9efu5L2uk/k9a6hZvsLOhhQMGpi8atCnbaTA7rs VKw9nughmJFYLbrcPy633/HUAwuHgOrKX/4oi9fJAvuyEaDcVJeF71ogP1pzuQAHZj31 kzbw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1722896375; x=1723501175; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=rF/QFYE5FhGm48Anfg0xUIsZIBfwBJc9p88a6Lrl1eI=; b=l4U8Rl6wden943KteLIVkOb3qufJ19/Z1JLmIioiy/s1e6M5P42XjcQjp1eqUD+Spk owNKq9AMQZM/8Vb56eh7IIvPoZLEfkzmA66Qjwtx7/oOEkbudDcpW5JeQOWycyJUoMuF TzQseTel+moKg6DuNyBh3F9JZzFFtjzBvHxLPXUmDlyC1aR5CumhCjhTozfLf3jFMVIS nz0VNT9Nv6kC0C4Q9k8JDaH9ti4xXoFbuUxebGWe6SLyj6wQVshQ0GFujo3nl7tOBi1h 4K3P6cA0GaHobgqqhH/CisUnIKUQN6NVh9mt07BulyuPfvIJlSzlRSVjVv+GHE7b9v+X g4UA== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCXchAIk9NeUGl2QXg/qzJPdiH4K45t4Cvsaim6Tn+lIp89xqzVHMmZ135cguW10r2f3kr1bMxeCc8uxv8e8Ml+rNPTD6k75tW9EPQ0= X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxM/K4fapRisJ4wBog4rfM5AbLHDut6NmYe6PvZRU4cJ8RrR6eh L4hvc1qW20jYqFzCOdwkT3Wokf4iiqwyKLs41difwV+yyNsNVoJxTJVfX48sckh7r6q2Bx8EHSy iC7jsi30zyGJgxkTGiCDsWlvosFpBrdccqlBa7g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEcmQAW/vD4HLrAMfQOBgmL8reCTVQmDRfd1YH5SKHrJH6Dq7OGYviNI/EBrqRfBaPE6MmoWnYkZ2zhVOvg9Iw= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:4a08:b0:2c9:9fcd:aa51 with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2cff9419a1fmr15073035a91.5.1722896374728; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 15:19:34 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <704D020F-78A4-4926-AE3C-41F7FD619A89@cschubert.com> <20240805210149.nrkHN3j3@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <202408052127.475LROnE067608@critter.freebsd.dk> <202408052206.475M6h8E067967@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: <202408052206.475M6h8E067967@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Warner Losh Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2024 16:19:23 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: Steffen Nurpmeso , Cy Schubert , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Bakul Shah Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000066a6a0061ef712ce" X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Wd9pd0xcrz47lt --00000000000066a6a0061ef712ce Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 4:06=E2=80=AFPM Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > -------- > Warner Losh writes: > > > > > Most user space tools could be written in lua. > > > > > > That /exact/ same argument was made for Perl :-) > > > > Lua's been in the base since I imported it for the boot loader, though.= .. > > Lua is is much more "language" than "eco-system", by design as I > understand it, so that is a different situation than Perl or Rust. > Indeed. The standard stuff is fairly small, and we're doing it all as a 'private' library, so ports will never see what we pull in. I personally do not subscribe to to the "let's rewrite all the 50 > year old source code to make it more safe" philosophy, but there > are valid arguments when the old code is horrible. > Plus we're writing new stuff only, and typically only where it makes a lot of sense (lots of string processing). Plus we're keeping the scripts as compatible with what little ecosystem there is so we can go back and forth between the ports lua and the base flua. > But there are some wrinkles. > > First: Anything setuid/setgid is off-limits. > > There are good reasons why we dont have setuid shell-scripts (any more!) > > I guess with most systems being effectively single-user these days, > that may not be as much a security focus as it was back in the 1990ies. > Yea. No plans there. > Second: Performance. > > I cannot remember the exact subset of bin programs somebody did in > Perl as proof of concept, but it slowed down buildworld a LOT to > fire up all of Perl to do trivial stuff like "echo", "chown" and > "mkdir". > > Lua may be cheaper than Perl, but it will still be measurable. > Yea. I'm guessing you wouldn't notice, but why do that. There's no benefit and only a myriad of ways to introduce new bugs or non-posix conformance where we were conformant before. I'm definitely in the "why are we rewriting stuff in rust" because it doesn't move the ball forward, really. At best it's a great leap sideways, maybe with marginally better actual safety. At worst, it's a great leap int= o a morass of almost compatible that causes great grief in the gaps, or worse, has new security problems the old one didn't. So rewriting for the sake of rewriting seems like a giant waste of resources. Rewriting strategically to fix areas that have had safey issues may be different, but cp.rst isn't going to be any better, than cp.c in most aspects because cp.c has had 50 years to be debugged. And 50 years makes up for a lot of danger in the language.... So there may be things that we get some advantage out of by doing a rewrite in rust, but I'm in the 'case by case basis' camp there: those cases where the cost / benefit ratio is favorable should be considered. But they can't be considered entirely in a vacuum because there's a non-zero cost to rust in the base, even as an external toolchain. Having said all that, I'd love to see us be able to make better of rust and new rust programs where it makes sense. That's why I've been encouraging people to give it a go to show us the money. To show up that we can integrate it (even if it is just a few lines in Makefile.inc1 that builds everything, optionally, as part of buildworld). That shows us we can keep the dependency hell under control, that we can update things sanely (more ecosystem here, not language). How much work is it to track the latest versions, how do we deal with that as the number of new rust programs grow, how do we deal with ABI stability, etc. And to show us if there's an actual advantage to all of that over what we can do in ports, or what we might do with pkgbase somehow. I'm unsure of the outcome of all this, but I think it would be wrong to shout it down completely. To do all that, people need room to experiment and show what's what. Warner --00000000000066a6a0061ef712ce Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 4:06=E2=80=AFP= M Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freeb= sd.dk> wrote:
--------
Warner Losh writes:

> > > Most user space tools could be written in lua.
> >
> > That /exact/ same argument was made for Perl :-)
>
> Lua's been in the base since I imported it for the boot loader, th= ough...

Lua is is much more "language" than "eco-system", by de= sign as I
understand it, so that is a different situation than Perl or Rust.

Indeed. The standard stuff is fairly small, and= we're doing it all as
a 'private' library, so ports = will=C2=A0never see what we pull in.

I personally do not subscribe to to the &q= uot;let's rewrite all the 50
year old source code to make it more safe" philosophy, but there
are valid arguments when the old code is horrible.
Plus we're writing new stuff only, and typically only where= it makes
a lot of sense (lots of string processing). Plus we'= ;re keeping the scripts
as compatible with what little ecosystem = there is so we can go back
and forth between the ports lua and th= e base flua.
=C2=A0
But there are some wrinkles.

First: Anything setuid/setgid is off-limits.

There are good reasons why we dont have setuid shell-scripts (any more!)
I guess with most systems being effectively single-user these days,
that may not be as much a security focus as it was back in the 1990ies.
=

Yea. No plans there.
=C2=A0
Second: Performance.

I cannot remember the exact subset of bin programs somebody did in
Perl as proof of concept, but it slowed down buildworld a LOT to
fire up all of Perl to do trivial stuff like "echo", "chown&= quot; and
"mkdir".

Lua may be cheaper than Perl, but it will still be measurable.

Yea. I'm guessing you wouldn't notice, but = why do that. There's
no benefit and only a myriad of ways to = introduce new bugs
or non-posix conformance where we were conform= ant before.

I'm definitely in the "why ar= e we rewriting stuff in rust" because
it doesn't move th= e ball forward, really. At best it's a great leap sideways,
m= aybe with marginally better actual safety. At worst, it's a great leap = into
a morass of almost compatible that causes great grief in the= gaps, or
worse, has new security problems the old one didn't= . So rewriting
for the sake of rewriting seems like a giant waste= of resources.
Rewriting strategically to fix areas that have had= safey=C2=A0issues
may be different, but cp.rst isn't going t= o be any better, than
cp.c in most aspects because cp.c has had 5= 0 years to be
debugged.=C2=A0 And 50 years makes up for a lot of = danger
in the language.... So there may be things that we get som= e
advantage out of by doing a rewrite in rust, but I'm in the=
'case by case basis' camp there: those cases where the c= ost / benefit
ratio is favorable should be considered. But they c= an't be
considered entirely in a vacuum because there's a= non-zero
cost to rust in the base, even as an external toolchain= .

Having said all that, I'd love to see us be = able to make better of rust and
new rust programs where it makes = sense. That's why I've been
encouraging people to give it= a go to show us the money. To
show up that we can integrate it (= even if it is just a few lines in
Makefile.inc1 that builds every= thing, optionally, as part of
buildworld). That shows us we can k= eep the dependency hell
under control, that we can update things = sanely (more ecosystem
here, not language). How much work is it t= o track the latest versions,
how do we deal with that as the numb= er of new rust programs grow,
how do we deal with ABI stability, = etc. And to show us if there's an
actual advantage to all of = that over what we can do in ports, or what
we might do with pkgba= se somehow. I'm unsure of the outcome of all
this, but I thin= k it would be wrong to shout it down completely. To do
all that, = people need room to experiment and show what's what.

Warner

--00000000000066a6a0061ef712ce-- From nobody Mon Aug 5 22:29:06 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4WdB241fqmz5Sq6Y for ; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 22:29:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Received: from www121.sakura.ne.jp (www121.sakura.ne.jp [153.125.133.21]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4WdB233dvLz4BG5 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2024 22:29:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from kalamity.joker.local (123-1-21-232.area1b.commufa.jp [123.1.21.232]) (authenticated bits=0) by www121.sakura.ne.jp (8.17.1/8.17.1/[SAKURA-WEB]/20201212) with ESMTPA id 475MT7he011540; Tue, 6 Aug 2024 07:29:08 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=dec.sakura.ne.jp; s=s2405; t=1722896954; bh=wTZhXI2UOqsJDJ9LjB+2PWr5DLDHIMwD5XXRcjeITHQ=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=kV1w8wZFNoZAhREZShxkVGZRk+RA29ub4pRwXL7zteb8DK4AVQSgCfkOGlsZlgII5 ennA/Rh1R7kNEPf9sj5/7WkXxMQ8ghCd15wGVXj706C8kuNdbb/0hA3DF+L9JQIgz7 iimXnD7SLEfoWn2wnyQGYVwctUY+ZfjmbyWWHIc8= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 07:29:06 +0900 From: Tomoaki AOKI To: Warner Losh Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Steffen Nurpmeso , Cy Schubert , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Bakul Shah Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) Message-Id: <20240806072906.bc206fa9b77ffc949317bd19@dec.sakura.ne.jp> In-Reply-To: References: <704D020F-78A4-4926-AE3C-41F7FD619A89@cschubert.com> <20240805210149.nrkHN3j3@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <202408052127.475LROnE067608@critter.freebsd.dk> Organization: Junchoon corps X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.33; amd64-portbld-freebsd14.1) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7684, ipnet:153.125.128.0/18, country:JP] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4WdB233dvLz4BG5 On Mon, 5 Aug 2024 15:32:17 -0600 Warner Losh wrote: > On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 3:27 PM Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > > -------- > > Steffen Nurpmeso writes: > > > Cy Schubert wrote in > > > <704D020F-78A4-4926-AE3C-41F7FD619A89@cschubert.com>: > > > |On July 31, 2024 10:49:52 AM PDT, Bakul Shah > > wrote: > > > |>All this talk won't lead to anything much so a suggestion to > > > .. > > > |Sorry for being late to the party. Last day of vacation; picking up \ > > > |phone reading this thread. > > > | > > > |Like much in this business (been doing this stuff for about 50 years \ > > > |now) there is a cohort unwilling to roll up their sleeves and put some > > \ > > > |skin in the game, expecting others already with long todo lists to \ > > > > > > Most user space tools could be written in lua. > > > > That /exact/ same argument was made for Perl :-) > > > > Lua's been in the base since I imported it for the boot loader, though... > > Warner And Forth was introduced for loader prior to lua and still not deleted. :-) I think it would be removed sometime in the future once no one complains about loader.lua. -- Tomoaki AOKI From nobody Mon Aug 5 22:33:24 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4WdB6p2tK9z5SqKn for ; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 22:33:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-pj1-x102a.google.com (mail-pj1-x102a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4WdB6p19R3z4D5d for ; 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Mon, 05 Aug 2024 15:33:36 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <704D020F-78A4-4926-AE3C-41F7FD619A89@cschubert.com> <20240805210149.nrkHN3j3@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <202408052127.475LROnE067608@critter.freebsd.dk> <20240806072906.bc206fa9b77ffc949317bd19@dec.sakura.ne.jp> In-Reply-To: <20240806072906.bc206fa9b77ffc949317bd19@dec.sakura.ne.jp> From: Warner Losh Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2024 16:33:24 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) To: Tomoaki AOKI Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Steffen Nurpmeso , Cy Schubert , FreeBSD Hackers , Bakul Shah Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000943e6e061ef744f9" X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4WdB6p19R3z4D5d --000000000000943e6e061ef744f9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Aug 5, 2024, 4:29=E2=80=AFPM Tomoaki AOKI wrote: > On Mon, 5 Aug 2024 15:32:17 -0600 > Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 3:27=E2=80=AFPM Poul-Henning Kamp > wrote: > > > > > -------- > > > Steffen Nurpmeso writes: > > > > Cy Schubert wrote in > > > > <704D020F-78A4-4926-AE3C-41F7FD619A89@cschubert.com>: > > > > |On July 31, 2024 10:49:52 AM PDT, Bakul Shah > > > wrote: > > > > |>All this talk won't lead to anything much so a suggestion to > > > > .. > > > > |Sorry for being late to the party. Last day of vacation; picking > up \ > > > > |phone reading this thread. > > > > | > > > > |Like much in this business (been doing this stuff for about 50 > years \ > > > > |now) there is a cohort unwilling to roll up their sleeves and put > some > > > \ > > > > |skin in the game, expecting others already with long todo lists t= o > \ > > > > > > > > Most user space tools could be written in lua. > > > > > > That /exact/ same argument was made for Perl :-) > > > > > > > Lua's been in the base since I imported it for the boot loader, though.= .. > > > > Warner > > And Forth was introduced for loader prior to lua and still not > deleted. :-) > I think it would be removed sometime in the future once no one > complains about loader.lua. > The only remaining legitimate complaint I've heard against lua loader is its size in BIOS land. It's about 50ish k too big still there when bearssl and veriexec are on given lua's stack usage. But we never wrote other system utils in forth (bearssl parsing notwithstanding) nor had a critical mass of people wanting to do that. Warner --=20 > Tomoaki AOKI > --000000000000943e6e061ef744f9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, Aug 5, 2024, 4:29=E2=80=AFPM Tomoaki AOKI <= junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp&= gt; wrote:
On Mon, 5 Aug 2024 15:32= :17 -0600
Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 3:27=E2=80=AFPM Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk= .freebsd.dk> wrote:
>
> > --------
> > Steffen Nurpmeso writes:
> > > Cy Schubert wrote in
> > >=C2=A0 <704D020F-78A4-4926= -AE3C-41F7FD619A89@cschubert.com>:
> > >=C2=A0 |On July 31, 2024 10:49:52 AM PDT, Bakul Shah <bak= ul@iitbombay.org>
> > wrote:
> > >=C2=A0 |>All this talk won't lead to anything much so = a suggestion to
> > >=C2=A0 ..
> > >=C2=A0 |Sorry for being late to the party. Last day of vacati= on; picking up \
> > >=C2=A0 |phone reading this thread.
> > >=C2=A0 |
> > >=C2=A0 |Like much in this business (been doing this stuff for= about 50 years \
> > >=C2=A0 |now) there is a cohort unwilling to roll up their sle= eves and put some
> > \
> > >=C2=A0 |skin in the game, expecting others already with long = todo lists to \
> > >
> > > Most user space tools could be written in lua.
> >
> > That /exact/ same argument was made for Perl :-)
> >
>
> Lua's been in the base since I imported it for the boot loader, th= ough...
>
> Warner

And Forth was introduced for loader prior to lua and still not
deleted. :-)
I think it would be removed sometime in the future once no one
complains about loader.lua.
<= br>
The only remaining legitimate complaint I've= heard against lua loader is its size in BIOS land. It's about 50ish k = too big still there when bearssl and veriexec are on given lua's stack = usage.

But we never wrot= e other system utils in forth (bearssl parsing notwithstanding) nor had a c= ritical mass of people wanting to do that.=C2=A0
Warner

--
Tomoaki AOKI=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp>
--000000000000943e6e061ef744f9-- From nobody Mon Aug 5 22:46:51 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4WdBQ819YQz5Sr6r for ; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 22:46:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from steffen@sdaoden.eu) Received: from sdaoden.eu (sdaoden.eu [217.144.132.164]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4WdBQ75Qznz4Fx0 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2024 22:46:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from steffen@sdaoden.eu) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sdaoden.eu; s=citron; t=1722898012; x=1723564678; h=date:author:from:to:cc:subject: message-id:in-reply-to:references:openpgp:blahblahblah:mime-version: content-type:content-transfer-encoding:author:from:subject:date:to:cc: resent-author:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender:resent-to:resent-cc: resent-reply-to:resent-message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version: content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:content-id: content-description:message-id:mail-followup-to:openpgp:blahblahblah; bh=pPIIJT/cx4y0XEqsPC4mcH6bueNtPorW24DhEnqpAc8=; b=H5sQP5yssouI3hwuKH7UOaoRWN5qFpSXlLsHIdkM5F6PxxlgqhVfUv1apcQN1z7eQyNaHX8x AmXnrXdphQyoykNiM1LPOs3/rIyXCT/qM8L/lppa5+gBl/b07hx/Co3ZVGONJY2klhwYtSE/US 3Zd0DIeoc7pIeSkR/505Mt43ZipW5d0xI6GQgd9XJHxtYMzgci8wKrV39fMg0VnXWSSUYw2Vt3 cBZPlcgF9sPk/fEhRg1H2VUH9jGvkN8gRdWb3pk0t4kt6R1+P/mGqWlYPypQrcT6ngY3gucsyF mOolgTwDD5Z5LzMuDjSb8A1wYtCizjGOPBX7IXqNIJFKaEIw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=ed25519-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sdaoden.eu; s=orange; t=1722898012; x=1723564678; h=date:author:from:to:cc:subject: message-id:in-reply-to:references:openpgp:blahblahblah:mime-version: content-type:content-transfer-encoding:author:from:subject:date:to:cc: resent-author:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender:resent-to:resent-cc: resent-reply-to:resent-message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version: content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:content-id: content-description:message-id:mail-followup-to:openpgp:blahblahblah; bh=pPIIJT/cx4y0XEqsPC4mcH6bueNtPorW24DhEnqpAc8=; b=wCX2mdi+KT8XTqJDCTtx+NWINpD36qRUj7Ch7RNHphCxMurjdgSllqU6t6IhS2CCstsXyHyF nC2MN/KtMcNxAA== Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2024 00:46:51 +0200 Author: Steffen Nurpmeso From: Steffen Nurpmeso To: Warner Losh Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Cy Schubert , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Bakul Shah Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) Message-ID: <20240805224651.sDOyBurF@steffen%sdaoden.eu> In-Reply-To: References: <704D020F-78A4-4926-AE3C-41F7FD619A89@cschubert.com> <20240805210149.nrkHN3j3@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <202408052127.475LROnE067608@critter.freebsd.dk> <202408052206.475M6h8E067967@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: s-nail v14.9.24-621-g0d1e55f367 OpenPGP: id=EE19E1C1F2F7054F8D3954D8308964B51883A0DD; url=https://ftp.sdaoden.eu/steffen.asc; preference=signencrypt BlahBlahBlah: Any stupid boy can crush a beetle. But all the professors in the world can make no bugs. List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15987, ipnet:217.144.128.0/20, country:DE] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4WdBQ75Qznz4Fx0 Warner Losh wrote in : |On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 4:06=E2=80=AFPM Poul-Henning Kamp \ |wrote: |> -------- |> Warner Losh writes: |>>>> Most user space tools could be written in lua. |>>> |>>> That /exact/ same argument was made for Perl :-) |>> |>> Lua's been in the base since I imported it for the boot loader, \ |>> though... |> |> Lua is is much more "language" than "eco-system", by design as I |> understand it, so that is a different situation than Perl or Rust. | |Indeed. The standard stuff is fairly small, and we're doing it all as |a 'private' library, so ports will never see what we pull in. | |I personally do not subscribe to to the "let's rewrite all the 50 |> year old source code to make it more safe" philosophy, but there |> are valid arguments when the old code is horrible. | |Plus we're writing new stuff only, and typically only where it makes |a lot of sense (lots of string processing). Plus we're keeping the scripts |as compatible with what little ecosystem there is so we can go back |and forth between the ports lua and the base flua. | |> But there are some wrinkles. |> |> First: Anything setuid/setgid is off-limits. |> |> There are good reasons why we dont have setuid shell-scripts (any more!) |> |> I guess with most systems being effectively single-user these days, |> that may not be as much a security focus as it was back in the 1990ies. | |Yea. No plans there. | |> Second: Performance. |> |> I cannot remember the exact subset of bin programs somebody did in |> Perl as proof of concept, but it slowed down buildworld a LOT to |> fire up all of Perl to do trivial stuff like "echo", "chown" and |> "mkdir". |> |> Lua may be cheaper than Perl, but it will still be measurable. | |Yea. I'm guessing you wouldn't notice, but why do that. There's |no benefit and only a myriad of ways to introduce new bugs |or non-posix conformance where we were conformant before. | |I'm definitely in the "why are we rewriting stuff in rust" because |it doesn't move the ball forward, really. At best it's a great leap |sideways, |maybe with marginally better actual safety. At worst, it's a great \ |leap into |a morass of almost compatible that causes great grief in the gaps, or |worse, has new security problems the old one didn't. So rewriting |for the sake of rewriting seems like a giant waste of resources. |Rewriting strategically to fix areas that have had safey issues |may be different, but cp.rst isn't going to be any better, than |cp.c in most aspects because cp.c has had 50 years to be |debugged. And 50 years makes up for a lot of danger |in the language.... So there may be things that we get some |advantage out of by doing a rewrite in rust, but I'm in the |'case by case basis' camp there: those cases where the cost / benefit |ratio is favorable should be considered. But they can't be |considered entirely in a vacuum because there's a non-zero |cost to rust in the base, even as an external toolchain. That sounds nothing but good. (I was not really serious at first btw.) =20 |Having said all that, I'd love to see us be able to make better of rust a= nd |new rust programs where it makes sense. That's why I've been |encouraging people to give it a go to show us the money. To |show up that we can integrate it (even if it is just a few lines in |Makefile.inc1 that builds everything, optionally, as part of |buildworld). That shows us we can keep the dependency hell |under control, that we can update things sanely (more ecosystem |here, not language). How much work is it to track the latest versions, |how do we deal with that as the number of new rust programs grow, |how do we deal with ABI stability, etc. And to show us if there's an |actual advantage to all of that over what we can do in ports, or what |we might do with pkgbase somehow. I'm unsure of the outcome of all |this, but I think it would be wrong to shout it down completely. To do |all that, people need room to experiment and show what's what. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) | | Only during dog days: | On the 81st anniversary of the Goebbel's Sportpalast speech | von der Leyen gave an overlong hypocritical inauguration one. | The brew's essence of our civilizing advancement seems o be: | Total war - shortest war -> Permanent war - everlasting war From nobody Mon Aug 5 22:49:42 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4WdBTX3TfSz5SrP3 for ; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 22:49:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Received: from www121.sakura.ne.jp (www121.sakura.ne.jp [153.125.133.21]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4WdBTX0djWz4GYH for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2024 22:49:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from kalamity.joker.local (123-1-21-232.area1b.commufa.jp [123.1.21.232]) (authenticated bits=0) by www121.sakura.ne.jp (8.17.1/8.17.1/[SAKURA-WEB]/20201212) with ESMTPA id 475MngQU014069; Tue, 6 Aug 2024 07:49:42 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=dec.sakura.ne.jp; s=s2405; t=1722898185; bh=uv4RsKmfpl5DCRwBg3X4C76u3u+lOn27L0PpBRxg8KI=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=AKYy7WCvpgSmgS3yR3nxNXdLRIZTmHrEwZuhHPW8+XtWCUONC35nnA7h+pFjvk9J1 AwR9/9nkicWA6ha0tsaoZw2yNUqBkT+mIiZpX54mAbxRUsN/6vFXB4OO2eeNPErxJn VNLPbQvSFvnSM0QpBPuuNKQBaAe4Kh3CwPnkadew= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 07:49:42 +0900 From: Tomoaki AOKI To: Warner Losh Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Steffen Nurpmeso , Cy Schubert , FreeBSD Hackers , Bakul Shah Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) Message-Id: <20240806074942.a8ef6b35a06ca0638e672327@dec.sakura.ne.jp> In-Reply-To: References: <704D020F-78A4-4926-AE3C-41F7FD619A89@cschubert.com> <20240805210149.nrkHN3j3@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <202408052127.475LROnE067608@critter.freebsd.dk> <20240806072906.bc206fa9b77ffc949317bd19@dec.sakura.ne.jp> Organization: Junchoon corps X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.33; amd64-portbld-freebsd14.1) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7684, ipnet:153.125.128.0/18, country:JP] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4WdBTX0djWz4GYH On Mon, 5 Aug 2024 16:33:24 -0600 Warner Losh wrote: > On Mon, Aug 5, 2024, 4:29 PM Tomoaki AOKI wrote: > > > On Mon, 5 Aug 2024 15:32:17 -0600 > > Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 3:27 PM Poul-Henning Kamp > > wrote: > > > > > > > -------- > > > > Steffen Nurpmeso writes: > > > > > Cy Schubert wrote in > > > > > <704D020F-78A4-4926-AE3C-41F7FD619A89@cschubert.com>: > > > > > |On July 31, 2024 10:49:52 AM PDT, Bakul Shah > > > > wrote: > > > > > |>All this talk won't lead to anything much so a suggestion to > > > > > .. > > > > > |Sorry for being late to the party. Last day of vacation; picking > > up \ > > > > > |phone reading this thread. > > > > > | > > > > > |Like much in this business (been doing this stuff for about 50 > > years \ > > > > > |now) there is a cohort unwilling to roll up their sleeves and put > > some > > > > \ > > > > > |skin in the game, expecting others already with long todo lists to > > \ > > > > > > > > > > Most user space tools could be written in lua. > > > > > > > > That /exact/ same argument was made for Perl :-) > > > > > > > > > > Lua's been in the base since I imported it for the boot loader, though... > > > > > > Warner > > > > And Forth was introduced for loader prior to lua and still not > > deleted. :-) > > I think it would be removed sometime in the future once no one > > complains about loader.lua. > > > > The only remaining legitimate complaint I've heard against lua loader is > its size in BIOS land. It's about 50ish k too big still there when bearssl > and veriexec are on given lua's stack usage. > > But we never wrote other system utils in forth (bearssl parsing > notwithstanding) nor had a critical mass of people wanting to do that. Exactly. I once thought why? But never seen (at least by default) something written in Forth for base, other than loader. Maybe it would be when firmwares shipped for first hand users stop shipping CSM that Forth is removed from base, ealiest. > > Warner > > -- > > Tomoaki AOKI > > -- Tomoaki AOKI From nobody Tue Aug 6 03:05:34 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4WdJ8s49brz5SVtQ for ; Tue, 06 Aug 2024 03:05:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-pj1-x1030.google.com (mail-pj1-x1030.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1030]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4WdJ8s2NNMz4dGS for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2024 03:05:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-pj1-x1030.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2cb64529a36so220478a91.0 for ; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 20:05:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1722913547; x=1723518347; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=QF1MK5TnUyvucqtCThwkV4qDYeFkWX8b+mmS4akY7w0=; b=vMaEWAFzDIAvO+1xHiHWFU904nxVx3KCxQ4G9pyYzO/T97TOAm+jC5y89vfPbyaVxD 4Rg0k6Kk+4PyTnS/88ilBlSn8kJ8KrAlrGrh/r3eT3m8cc4XVafjB5qIaJui1zeh2ouq 3gv6ll6dAhb/NcYSbaZC9tOxM0UrP4Pv36HBn+uG9swEnyoNgcG+rnpnTrEENJYcAf41 YrkSZNtxDgXZpoOd7UvkP+blqr85fgeWc9Hd9vwAOBYEEGo1kOg3m5QK4R51N/fTObXi aeQsebvWCPRtRoUvL69NvwhBfFOoWFz7Pw2aRCLdEuYorBMBxz8Zd5fveEpmqx/kYBh4 fj0g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1722913547; x=1723518347; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=QF1MK5TnUyvucqtCThwkV4qDYeFkWX8b+mmS4akY7w0=; b=QRmv9bpf4BPRWECYCHbbi+uxDrXP3FYCPOt+tW65jWV49U7EZvim9099Qmp/08q2js 6ZcrNYxTDSp+NlZMs7y9lDqxbEpIONO6qkY84TXflTX8RxKbDrE6SVYJjb/ELJL+ON+r 7G9THRgzWM4Qmh6xFObtHbeu25byUc8obgfaTwbdUoAKm2Qoyd82lvUHANBaCvbmHO6U bJz5AD6MjC1iFReAQkGFoobU6eSU4iUm+MkhPTWr6WyITj7p9g42YV/MurTC/wKxyykU CUj7ft7DlPbS5jw4p4KMd5YRI213UmiExJZ0d4SCN4MCzv1vkStXGjkBdGYR9FDhhNxs +/4Q== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCV2tJF8ZEF5xCmMiJpRkRrZSnMtn6KiNOtOhZT7HcNQ263l5md/CKBmHqy/kMeuiWeLWveKb6VSEP7ORF8WwEqU7ZmYq4mJgIhXIkI= X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YylyxECT6xs0vV0Uxj4jv8YIGAmeO5zoQ7z2psLak1GKStEhURg WZglfzmknoleLFB9zaMu32P6cNDmHTO8HMKDfMNyfx+n+ehtavM8Pvdwiry+OqoR8HD7GANENWY 7Dgax8Gwu2JiyHBJmhRa8QdrMhl1c0dfgCKS71hwkxZBSR5AHM14= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IF9zCFKUIINc7tXkGU0Y5o7pP3XzXoh/562bkeFnfWBz0CJOuizpKsh/xMySehinHliLr2d7zcH4vPWbUmcrKQ= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:1809:b0:2c9:8afe:4f08 with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2cff93c8ec9mr12613844a91.2.1722913546586; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 20:05:46 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <704D020F-78A4-4926-AE3C-41F7FD619A89@cschubert.com> <20240805210149.nrkHN3j3@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <202408052127.475LROnE067608@critter.freebsd.dk> <20240806072906.bc206fa9b77ffc949317bd19@dec.sakura.ne.jp> <20240806074942.a8ef6b35a06ca0638e672327@dec.sakura.ne.jp> In-Reply-To: <20240806074942.a8ef6b35a06ca0638e672327@dec.sakura.ne.jp> From: Warner Losh Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2024 21:05:34 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) To: Tomoaki AOKI Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Steffen Nurpmeso , Cy Schubert , FreeBSD Hackers , Bakul Shah Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ec6acd061efb1174" X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4WdJ8s2NNMz4dGS --000000000000ec6acd061efb1174 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 4:49=E2=80=AFPM Tomoaki AOKI wrote: > On Mon, 5 Aug 2024 16:33:24 -0600 > Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Mon, Aug 5, 2024, 4:29=E2=80=AFPM Tomoaki AOKI > wrote: > > > > > On Mon, 5 Aug 2024 15:32:17 -0600 > > > Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 3:27=E2=80=AFPM Poul-Henning Kamp > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > -------- > > > > > Steffen Nurpmeso writes: > > > > > > Cy Schubert wrote in > > > > > > <704D020F-78A4-4926-AE3C-41F7FD619A89@cschubert.com>: > > > > > > |On July 31, 2024 10:49:52 AM PDT, Bakul Shah < > bakul@iitbombay.org> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > |>All this talk won't lead to anything much so a suggestion to > > > > > > .. > > > > > > |Sorry for being late to the party. Last day of vacation; > picking > > > up \ > > > > > > |phone reading this thread. > > > > > > | > > > > > > |Like much in this business (been doing this stuff for about 5= 0 > > > years \ > > > > > > |now) there is a cohort unwilling to roll up their sleeves and > put > > > some > > > > > \ > > > > > > |skin in the game, expecting others already with long todo > lists to > > > \ > > > > > > > > > > > > Most user space tools could be written in lua. > > > > > > > > > > That /exact/ same argument was made for Perl :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lua's been in the base since I imported it for the boot loader, > though... > > > > > > > > Warner > > > > > > And Forth was introduced for loader prior to lua and still not > > > deleted. :-) > > > I think it would be removed sometime in the future once no one > > > complains about loader.lua. > > > > > > > The only remaining legitimate complaint I've heard against lua loader i= s > > its size in BIOS land. It's about 50ish k too big still there when > bearssl > > and veriexec are on given lua's stack usage. > > > > But we never wrote other system utils in forth (bearssl parsing > > notwithstanding) nor had a critical mass of people wanting to do that. > > Exactly. I once thought why? But never seen (at least by default) > something written in Forth for base, other than loader. > 4th is too hard to program in and doesn't lend iitselfwell to string processing. > Maybe it would be when firmwares shipped for first hand users stop > shipping CSM that Forth is removed from base, ealiest. > Yea. Too many VMs want a CSM interface, so we'll be stuck with it for some time to come :(. Warner > > > > Warner > > > > -- > > > Tomoaki AOKI > > > > > > -- > Tomoaki AOKI > --000000000000ec6acd061efb1174 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 4:49=E2=80=AFP= M Tomoaki AOKI <junchoon@de= c.sakura.ne.jp> wrote:
On Mon, 5 Aug 2024 16:33:24 -0600
Warner Losh <imp@bsd= imp.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024, 4:29=E2=80=AFPM Tomoaki AOKI <junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 5 Aug 2024 15:32:17 -0600
> > Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 3:27=E2=80=AFPM Poul-Henning Kamp <= ;phk@phk.freebsd.dk= >
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > --------
> > > > Steffen Nurpmeso writes:
> > > > > Cy Schubert wrote in
> > > > >=C2=A0 <704D020F-78A4-4926-AE3C-41F= 7FD619A89@cschubert.com>:
> > > > >=C2=A0 |On July 31, 2024 10:49:52 AM PDT, Bakul Sha= h <bakul@iitbom= bay.org>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >=C2=A0 |>All this talk won't lead to anythin= g much so a suggestion to
> > > > >=C2=A0 ..
> > > > >=C2=A0 |Sorry for being late to the party. Last day= of vacation; picking
> > up \
> > > > >=C2=A0 |phone reading this thread.
> > > > >=C2=A0 |
> > > > >=C2=A0 |Like much in this business (been doing this= stuff for about 50
> > years \
> > > > >=C2=A0 |now) there is a cohort unwilling to roll up= their sleeves and put
> > some
> > > > \
> > > > >=C2=A0 |skin in the game, expecting others already = with long todo lists to
> > \
> > > > >
> > > > > Most user space tools could be written in lua.
> > > >
> > > > That /exact/ same argument was made for Perl :-)
> > > >
> > >
> > > Lua's been in the base since I imported it for the boot = loader, though...
> > >
> > > Warner
> >
> > And Forth was introduced for loader prior to lua and still not > > deleted. :-)
> > I think it would be removed sometime in the future once no one > > complains about loader.lua.
> >
>
> The only remaining legitimate complaint I've heard against lua loa= der is
> its size in BIOS land. It's about 50ish k too big still there when= bearssl
> and veriexec are on given lua's stack usage.
>
> But we never wrote other system utils in forth (bearssl parsing
> notwithstanding) nor had a critical mass of people wanting to do that.=

Exactly. I once thought why? But never seen (at least by default)
something written in Forth for base, other than loader.

4th is too hard to program in and doesn't lend iitself= well to string
processing.
=C2=A0
Maybe it would be when firmwares shipped for first hand users stop
shipping CSM that Forth is removed from base, ealiest.

Yea. Too many VMs want a CSM interface, so we'll be stu= ck with it
for some time to come :(.=C2=A0

Warner
=C2=A0
>
> Warner
>
> --
> > Tomoaki AOKI=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp>
> >


--
Tomoaki AOKI=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp>
--000000000000ec6acd061efb1174-- From nobody Tue Aug 6 04:41:19 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4WdLHR2TYfz5SfSK for ; Tue, 06 Aug 2024 04:41:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from david@crossfamilyweb.com) Received: from mail.dcrosstech.com (syn-024-097-005-251.biz.spectrum.com [24.97.5.251]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mail.dcrosstech.com", Issuer "DCrossTech.com LLC CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4WdLHQ3tSrz4pvv for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2024 04:41:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from david@crossfamilyweb.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of david@crossfamilyweb.com designates 24.97.5.251 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=david@crossfamilyweb.com X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at dcrosstech.com Received: from [10.1.7.155] (d155.p9.wifi.dcrosstech.com [10.1.7.155]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.dcrosstech.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 4764fJeR080850 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2024 04:41:19 GMT (envelope-from david@crossfamilyweb.com) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.priv.dcrosstech.com: Host d155.p9.wifi.dcrosstech.com [10.1.7.155] claimed to be [10.1.7.155] Message-ID: <8b139b6d-b2ce-76fc-c948-6dd535b19701@crossfamilyweb.com> Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 00:41:19 -0400 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.15.0 Content-Language: en-US To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org From: "David E. Cross" Subject: Multiple Phabricator Reviews open for months/years Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.19 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.986]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.10)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11351, ipnet:24.97.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[david]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[crossfamilyweb.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4WdLHQ3tSrz4pvv Periodic nudge to move the following along: (3 of them).  All 3 of them have been through at least one round of PR, some multiple.. and then they have just sat. https://reviews.freebsd.org/D38047 (opened Jan 2023) What is it?  It is a fix to nscd to handle getgroupmembership() via nscd;  This is more than an optimization, it fixes (at least) two bugs. (it is also a fantastic optimization).  The problem is that if a nsswitch provider DOES provide an implementation of 'getgroupmembership()' (for example nss_ldap, because there is no cache implementation of this it will completely and forever bypass the nscd implementation.  Specifically in the case of NSS_LDAP (and perhaps others), you can give extra permissions to the nscd process (via a kerberos keytab as an example) to do lookups without user keys.  In the case of nss_ldap, if forced to run as the user, and the user doesn't have network credentials, the requests all fail. The second bug is that the symbol check in the code that nscd uses to signal libc to NOT use caching doesn't work.  The symbol is not correctly exported. https://reviews.freebsd.org/D41509 (Opened August 2023) This adds encrypted passwords to lua loader for the boot loader so plaintext passwords aren't sitting on the filesystem in loader.conf (which is default world readable).  It uses mostly the same crypt syntax as passwd(5).  The big differences are that it doesn't support ALL of the the password hash types in libcrypt(3); because that is a lot of work for me, and it uses a slightly different prefix mechanism to signal to the password check routines that it is crypted/salted/hashed. Finally: https://reviews.freebsd.org/D45056 (opened May 2024) This adds O_DIRECT support to ggatel/ggatec/ggated so that exported files and devices may be optionally shared with the O_DIRECT flag.  This primary usecase of this is not wanting your buffer cache destroyed on sharing out image files to other machines on your network. I have been using (and continue to use) all of these in my production environments; I'd really like to get them merged, they should all be generally useful to everyone. Be great to get these into 15.0, and then MFCed for 14.2 and heck .even 13! From nobody Tue Aug 6 09:48:03 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4WdT5J3KDKz5T6VF for ; Tue, 06 Aug 2024 09:48:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Received: from www121.sakura.ne.jp (www121.sakura.ne.jp [153.125.133.21]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4WdT5H5Y54z4HNl for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2024 09:48:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from kalamity.joker.local (123-1-21-232.area1b.commufa.jp [123.1.21.232]) (authenticated bits=0) by www121.sakura.ne.jp (8.17.1/8.17.1/[SAKURA-WEB]/20201212) with ESMTPA id 4769m41S000595; Tue, 6 Aug 2024 18:48:04 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=dec.sakura.ne.jp; s=s2405; t=1722937687; bh=f15dkuSk0upD3XaSwGm8gAIQTI8SuGrD9Qkua4NApXI=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=XrIj6TV486Sx0JNwoxFQdr3RkRmy+JeTXN1z8y0Abj28VP1ShV5ALXscYaTkbc98r gMCuQ7fGkiuTH1qZUxUvV5zvGNS76vmlpnjcfqFzJbIryWNVDP22KRWQ11cvjjCnhE IkEcOj02iDSBeIJ4kBeerCcJT3EswDpjEeOM3cmI= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 18:48:03 +0900 From: Tomoaki AOKI To: Warner Losh Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Steffen Nurpmeso , Cy Schubert , FreeBSD Hackers , Bakul Shah Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) Message-Id: <20240806184803.bdbb01cc8f3d7f4e96fb42de@dec.sakura.ne.jp> In-Reply-To: References: <704D020F-78A4-4926-AE3C-41F7FD619A89@cschubert.com> <20240805210149.nrkHN3j3@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <202408052127.475LROnE067608@critter.freebsd.dk> <20240806072906.bc206fa9b77ffc949317bd19@dec.sakura.ne.jp> <20240806074942.a8ef6b35a06ca0638e672327@dec.sakura.ne.jp> Organization: Junchoon corps X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.33; amd64-portbld-freebsd14.1) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7684, ipnet:153.125.128.0/18, country:JP] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4WdT5H5Y54z4HNl On Mon, 5 Aug 2024 21:05:34 -0600 Warner Losh wrote: > On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 4:49 PM Tomoaki AOKI > wrote: > > > On Mon, 5 Aug 2024 16:33:24 -0600 > > Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > On Mon, Aug 5, 2024, 4:29 PM Tomoaki AOKI > > wrote: > > > > > > > On Mon, 5 Aug 2024 15:32:17 -0600 > > > > Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 3:27 PM Poul-Henning Kamp > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > -------- > > > > > > Steffen Nurpmeso writes: > > > > > > > Cy Schubert wrote in > > > > > > > <704D020F-78A4-4926-AE3C-41F7FD619A89@cschubert.com>: > > > > > > > |On July 31, 2024 10:49:52 AM PDT, Bakul Shah < > > bakul@iitbombay.org> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > |>All this talk won't lead to anything much so a suggestion to > > > > > > > .. > > > > > > > |Sorry for being late to the party. Last day of vacation; > > picking > > > > up \ > > > > > > > |phone reading this thread. > > > > > > > | > > > > > > > |Like much in this business (been doing this stuff for about 50 > > > > years \ > > > > > > > |now) there is a cohort unwilling to roll up their sleeves and > > put > > > > some > > > > > > \ > > > > > > > |skin in the game, expecting others already with long todo > > lists to > > > > \ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most user space tools could be written in lua. > > > > > > > > > > > > That /exact/ same argument was made for Perl :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lua's been in the base since I imported it for the boot loader, > > though... > > > > > > > > > > Warner > > > > > > > > And Forth was introduced for loader prior to lua and still not > > > > deleted. :-) > > > > I think it would be removed sometime in the future once no one > > > > complains about loader.lua. > > > > > > > > > > The only remaining legitimate complaint I've heard against lua loader is > > > its size in BIOS land. It's about 50ish k too big still there when > > bearssl > > > and veriexec are on given lua's stack usage. > > > > > > But we never wrote other system utils in forth (bearssl parsing > > > notwithstanding) nor had a critical mass of people wanting to do that. > > > > Exactly. I once thought why? But never seen (at least by default) > > something written in Forth for base, other than loader. > > > > 4th is too hard to program in and doesn't lend iitselfwell to string > processing. Agreed. It would be a good calculator for Reverse Polish notation, but for handling strings, it would not be (like programming on asm with limited functionalities). MY guess is that this is why lua loader is introduced. > > Maybe it would be when firmwares shipped for first hand users stop > > shipping CSM that Forth is removed from base, ealiest. > > > > Yea. Too many VMs want a CSM interface, so we'll be stuck with it > for some time to come :(. Ah, VMs. I recalled that I failed to boot FreeBSD with UEFI boot failed in early days UEFI boot was introcuded on VirtualBox-OSE. After that, I stopped trying UEFI boot on VirtualBox guests. Maybe early adopters on other VMs would bitten by something alike, and want their vendors to keep on supporting BIOS boot. It could be hard to switch to UEFI. Sigh. > Warner > > > > > > > > Warner > > > > > > -- > > > > Tomoaki AOKI > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Tomoaki AOKI > > -- Tomoaki AOKI From nobody Tue Aug 6 12:56:01 2024 X-Original-To: hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4WdYG80Nsqz5Rt0Y for ; Tue, 06 Aug 2024 12:56:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Paul.Zimmermann@inria.fr) Received: from mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.104]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.inria.fr", Issuer "GEANT OV RSA CA 4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4WdYG64sMTz4d5K for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2024 12:56:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Paul.Zimmermann@inria.fr) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=inria.fr header.s=dc header.b="nfVE/3Dx"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=inria.fr; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of Paul.Zimmermann@inria.fr designates 192.134.164.104 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=Paul.Zimmermann@inria.fr DKIM-Signature: v=1; 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client-ip=152.81.9.227; receiver=mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="Paul.Zimmermann@inria.fr"; x-sender="postmaster@coriandre"; x-conformance=spf_only X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="6.09,267,1716242400"; d="scan'208";a="93664363" Received: from coriandre.loria.fr (HELO coriandre) ([152.81.9.227]) by mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 06 Aug 2024 14:56:06 +0200 Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2024 14:56:01 +0200 Message-Id: From: Paul Zimmermann To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: kargl@freebsd.org, sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu, vincenzo.innocente@cern.ch, riemannic@gmail.com, johnmather@sidefx.com X-Spamd-Bar: ------ X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.10 / 15.00]; DWL_DNSWL_MED(-2.00)[inria.fr:dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.999]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[inria.fr,none]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[inria.fr:s=dc]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:192.134.164.0/24]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(-0.10)[192.134.164.104:from]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:2200, ipnet:192.134.164.0/24, country:FR]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[hackers@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[inria.fr:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4WdYG64sMTz4d5K List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Hi, we have updated our comparison with FreeBSD 14.1: https://members.loria.fr/PZimmermann/papers/accuracy.pdf Remaining issues in 14.1: * large error (up to 636 ulps) for pow in double precision * the powl function is not thread-safe * large error for tgammal near a negative integer * large error (up to 37100 ulps) for pow in double extended precision Paul Zimmermann From nobody Tue Aug 6 14:56:38 2024 X-Original-To: hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4WdbxN3fRVz5S5J6; Tue, 06 Aug 2024 14:56:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from kib.kiev.ua (kib.kiev.ua [IPv6:2001:470:d5e7:1::1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4WdbxM5RS6z4rNx; Tue, 6 Aug 2024 14:56:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from tom.home (kib@localhost [127.0.0.1] (may be forged)) by kib.kiev.ua (8.18.1/8.18.1) with ESMTP id 476EudJp004598; Tue, 6 Aug 2024 17:56:42 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 kib.kiev.ua 476EudJp004598 Received: (from kostik@localhost) by tom.home (8.18.1/8.18.1/Submit) id 476EucMe004597; Tue, 6 Aug 2024 17:56:38 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) X-Authentication-Warning: tom.home: kostik set sender to kostikbel@gmail.com using -f Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 17:56:38 +0300 From: Konstantin Belousov To: Paul Zimmermann Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, numerics@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kargl@freebsd.org, sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu, vincenzo.innocente@cern.ch, riemannic@gmail.com, johnmather@sidefx.com Message-ID: References: List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED,FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD,FREEMAIL_FROM, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=4.0.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.1 (2024-03-26) on tom.home X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4WdbxM5RS6z4rNx On Tue, Aug 06, 2024 at 02:56:01PM +0200, Paul Zimmermann wrote: > Hi, > > we have updated our comparison with FreeBSD 14.1: > > https://members.loria.fr/PZimmermann/papers/accuracy.pdf > > Remaining issues in 14.1: > > * the powl function is not thread-safe This is for 80-bit long double, am I right? And it is because of the global vars passing values between functions? I tried to hack something in https://reviews.freebsd.org/D46237 From nobody Tue Aug 6 18:19:14 2024 X-Original-To: hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4WdhQz4z0sz5SPrG; Tue, 06 Aug 2024 18:19:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (troutmask.apl.washington.edu [128.95.76.21]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4WdhQy71lLz49pZ; Tue, 6 Aug 2024 18:19:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.17.1/8.17.1) with ESMTP id 476IJEVM083072; Tue, 6 Aug 2024 11:19:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 troutmask.apl.washington.edu 476IJEVM083072 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=troutmask.apl.washington.edu; s=troutmask; t=1722968355; bh=y5p+L2kAzSKaKP4IUIURRcIeqSGnFVtn/zJoHBVQ8uQ=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:Reply-To:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=sPGbwPtdQDxsGtHztr6QIYRgWfKyrjAMYGHMEbi3Pt/D+ziyDpQwmrDcWPOsfgWtv fmNskUE7SoGszhQs9qNzYCVFNlr6Sht1x2AoFXCWsLP4MF6aejaLAezxWweAcFy8ix HtX5aKUGp//mD6D0F2BGAjvNBvYsNZ2I3kDchd4Mr3KpvfGIwMkVhX7bp3D6Q/zWpV D6PYR62VXgWxOGyYyuvrh05j3PZK7apjfrdqiKWfJ8ze38lB9uYrZaEhPZ6h7SMdGg 3JcJS1Da5t9W6HLJGjOXG26d+B9uPdFbWedMnvIfpcGozkg5dht26uLw4RRqM7eAi6 +NGW0+bDxIAJQ== Received: (from sgk@localhost) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.17.1/8.17.1/Submit) id 476IJELV083071; Tue, 6 Aug 2024 11:19:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sgk) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 11:19:14 -0700 From: Steve Kargl To: Konstantin Belousov Cc: Paul Zimmermann , hackers@freebsd.org, numerics@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kargl@freebsd.org, sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu, vincenzo.innocente@cern.ch, riemannic@gmail.com, johnmather@sidefx.com Message-ID: Reply-To: sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu References: List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:73, ipnet:128.95.0.0/16, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4WdhQy71lLz49pZ On Tue, Aug 06, 2024 at 05:56:38PM +0300, Konstantin Belousov wrote: > On Tue, Aug 06, 2024 at 02:56:01PM +0200, Paul Zimmermann wrote: > > Hi, > > > > we have updated our comparison with FreeBSD 14.1: > > > > https://members.loria.fr/PZimmermann/papers/accuracy.pdf > > > > Remaining issues in 14.1: > > > > * the powl function is not thread-safe > This is for 80-bit long double, am I right? Yes. It's ld80/e_powl.c. This function was imported from OpenBSD and based on Stephen Moshier's Cephes library. I fixed a few things in c422fbac00e326e. Someday, I'll finish my port of the fdlibm src/e_pow.c to ld80/e_powl.c. Unfortunately, ENOTIME and ENOMONEY. -- Steve From nobody Wed Aug 7 08:07:32 2024 X-Original-To: hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Wf2pf1s3Wz5Sv78; Wed, 07 Aug 2024 08:07:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Paul.Zimmermann@inria.fr) Received: from mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr (mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.104]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.inria.fr", Issuer "GEANT OV RSA CA 4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Wf2pc4yHvz4G3Q; Wed, 7 Aug 2024 08:07:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Paul.Zimmermann@inria.fr) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=inria.fr header.s=dc header.b=TGyYgpXQ; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=inria.fr; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of Paul.Zimmermann@inria.fr designates 192.134.164.104 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=Paul.Zimmermann@inria.fr DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=inria.fr; s=dc; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:in-reply-to:subject: references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=aU9SbO5wgDEpXVznXQbTds17495tmy769NDQB9O6qJc=; b=TGyYgpXQFvmFzQ+DKrQ41lIiIx5Dcz6aQGTAM+zKekMZPRsZFKMFjCE+ KiPib4xW+qzFe/GXhuLxabs6+9aRMaesk7Eqpel6UALY/oYBwZI5h+F/d uUJwr4/Qif+7uMiqTsKh/l8dyH51WMvXKkR9Z61ZWcGRleKRMxPnX6lKs g=; Received-SPF: SoftFail (mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr: domain of Paul.Zimmermann@inria.fr is inclined to not designate 152.81.9.227 as permitted sender) identity=mailfrom; client-ip=152.81.9.227; receiver=mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="Paul.Zimmermann@inria.fr"; x-sender="Paul.Zimmermann@inria.fr"; x-conformance=spf_only; x-record-type="v=spf1"; x-record-text="v=spf1 include:mailout.safebrands.com a:basic-mail.safebrands.com a:basic-mail01.safebrands.com a:basic-mail02.safebrands.com ip4:128.93.142.0/24 ip4:192.134.164.0/24 ip4:128.93.162.160 ip4:89.107.174.7 mx ~all" Received-SPF: None (mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr: no sender authenticity information available from domain of postmaster@coriandre) identity=helo; client-ip=152.81.9.227; receiver=mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr; envelope-from="Paul.Zimmermann@inria.fr"; x-sender="postmaster@coriandre"; x-conformance=spf_only X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="6.09,269,1716242400"; d="scan'208";a="93710814" Received: from coriandre.loria.fr (HELO coriandre) ([152.81.9.227]) by mail3-relais-sop.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 07 Aug 2024 10:07:34 +0200 Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2024 10:07:32 +0200 Message-Id: From: Paul Zimmermann To: Konstantin Belousov Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, numerics@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: (message from Konstantin Belousov on Tue, 6 Aug 2024 17:56:38 +0300) Subject: Re: kargl@freebsd.org, sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu, vincenzo.innocente@cern.ch, riemannic@gmail.com, johnmather@sidefx.com References: List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spamd-Bar: ------ X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.10 / 15.00]; DWL_DNSWL_MED(-2.00)[inria.fr:dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.997]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[inria.fr,none]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:192.134.164.0/24]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[inria.fr:s=dc]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(-0.10)[192.134.164.104:from]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[numerics@freebsd.org,hackers@freebsd.org]; ASN(0.00)[asn:2200, ipnet:192.134.164.0/24, country:FR]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[inria.fr:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Wf2pc4yHvz4G3Q Hi Konstantin, > Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 17:56:38 +0300 > From: Konstantin Belousov > Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, numerics@freebsd.org > > On Tue, Aug 06, 2024 at 02:56:01PM +0200, Paul Zimmermann wrote: > > Hi, > > > > we have updated our comparison with FreeBSD 14.1: > > > > https://members.loria.fr/PZimmermann/papers/accuracy.pdf > > > > Remaining issues in 14.1: > > > > * the powl function is not thread-safe > This is for 80-bit long double, am I right? yes > And it is because of the global vars passing values between functions? > > I tried to hack something in https://reviews.freebsd.org/D46237 thanks. I tried to apply your patch on top of openlibm-0.8.3 (after stripping lib/msun). Part of it failed: $ patch -p1 -i /tmp/D46237.diff patching file ld80/e_powl.c Hunk #1 FAILED at 23. Hunk #2 FAILED at 42. Hunk #3 succeeded at 85 (offset -41 lines). Hunk #4 succeeded at 100 (offset -41 lines). Hunk #5 succeeded at 135 (offset -41 lines). Hunk #6 succeeded at 158 (offset -41 lines). Hunk #7 succeeded at 189 (offset -41 lines). $ cat ld80/e_powl.c.rej --- ld80/e_powl.c +++ ld80/e_powl.c @@ -23,10 +23,10 @@ * P[0] x^n + P[1] x^(n-1) + ... + P[n] */ static inline long double -__polevll(long double x, long double *PP, int n) +__polevll(long double x, const long double *PP, int n) { long double y; - long double *P; + const long double *P; P = PP; y = *P++; @@ -42,10 +42,10 @@ * x^n + P[0] x^(n-1) + P[1] x^(n-2) + ... + P[n] */ static inline long double -__p1evll(long double x, long double *PP, int n) +__p1evll(long double x, const long double *PP, int n) { long double y; - long double *P; + const long double *P; P = PP; n -= 1; Also I git compiler warnings (maybe due to the rejected part): ld80/e_powl.c: In function ‘powl’: ld80/e_powl.c:374:29: warning: passing argument 2 of ‘__polevll’ discards ‘const’ qualifier from pointer target type [-Wdiscarded-qualifiers] 374 | w = x * ( z * __polevll( x, P, 3 ) / __p1evll( x, Q, 3 ) ); | ^ Apart from that, various tests I did seem to indicate the multi-thread issue has gone, thanks! Paul From nobody Wed Aug 7 08:41:24 2024 X-Original-To: hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Wf3Yn21kcz5SxCS; Wed, 07 Aug 2024 08:41:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from kib.kiev.ua (kib.kiev.ua [IPv6:2001:470:d5e7:1::1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Wf3Ym4y9xz4JRS; Wed, 7 Aug 2024 08:41:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from tom.home (kib@localhost [127.0.0.1] (may be forged)) by kib.kiev.ua (8.18.1/8.18.1) with ESMTP id 4778fPaM037567; Wed, 7 Aug 2024 11:41:28 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 kib.kiev.ua 4778fPaM037567 Received: (from kostik@localhost) by tom.home (8.18.1/8.18.1/Submit) id 4778fOiu037566; Wed, 7 Aug 2024 11:41:24 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) X-Authentication-Warning: tom.home: kostik set sender to kostikbel@gmail.com using -f Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2024 11:41:24 +0300 From: Konstantin Belousov To: Paul Zimmermann Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, numerics@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kargl@freebsd.org, sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu, vincenzo.innocente@cern.ch, riemannic@gmail.com, johnmather@sidefx.com Message-ID: References: List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED,FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD,FREEMAIL_FROM, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=4.0.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.1 (2024-03-26) on tom.home X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Wf3Ym4y9xz4JRS On Wed, Aug 07, 2024 at 10:07:32AM +0200, Paul Zimmermann wrote: > Hi Konstantin, > > > Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 17:56:38 +0300 > > From: Konstantin Belousov > > Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, numerics@freebsd.org > > > > On Tue, Aug 06, 2024 at 02:56:01PM +0200, Paul Zimmermann wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > we have updated our comparison with FreeBSD 14.1: > > > > > > https://members.loria.fr/PZimmermann/papers/accuracy.pdf > > > > > > Remaining issues in 14.1: > > > > > > * the powl function is not thread-safe > > This is for 80-bit long double, am I right? > > yes > > > And it is because of the global vars passing values between functions? > > > > I tried to hack something in https://reviews.freebsd.org/D46237 > > thanks. I tried to apply your patch on top of openlibm-0.8.3 (after > stripping lib/msun). Part of it failed: > > $ patch -p1 -i /tmp/D46237.diff > patching file ld80/e_powl.c > Hunk #1 FAILED at 23. > Hunk #2 FAILED at 42. > Hunk #3 succeeded at 85 (offset -41 lines). > Hunk #4 succeeded at 100 (offset -41 lines). > Hunk #5 succeeded at 135 (offset -41 lines). > Hunk #6 succeeded at 158 (offset -41 lines). > Hunk #7 succeeded at 189 (offset -41 lines). > > $ cat ld80/e_powl.c.rej > --- ld80/e_powl.c > +++ ld80/e_powl.c > @@ -23,10 +23,10 @@ > * P[0] x^n + P[1] x^(n-1) + ... + P[n] > */ > static inline long double > -__polevll(long double x, long double *PP, int n) > +__polevll(long double x, const long double *PP, int n) > { > long double y; > - long double *P; > + const long double *P; > > P = PP; > y = *P++; > @@ -42,10 +42,10 @@ > * x^n + P[0] x^(n-1) + P[1] x^(n-2) + ... + P[n] > */ > static inline long double > -__p1evll(long double x, long double *PP, int n) > +__p1evll(long double x, const long double *PP, int n) > { > long double y; > - long double *P; > + const long double *P; > > P = PP; > n -= 1; > > Also I git compiler warnings (maybe due to the rejected part): > > ld80/e_powl.c: In function ‘powl’: > ld80/e_powl.c:374:29: warning: passing argument 2 of ‘__polevll’ discards ‘const’ qualifier from pointer target type [-Wdiscarded-qualifiers] > 374 | w = x * ( z * __polevll( x, P, 3 ) / __p1evll( x, Q, 3 ) ); > | ^ Yes, we have some restructuring there, quite recent. Anyway, the main part of the patch is the marking of the statics with thread local. > > Apart from that, various tests I did seem to indicate the multi-thread issue > has gone, thanks! > Thank you for the testing. 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[209.85.218.48]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a640c23a62f3a-a7dc9bc3cb3sm783590766b.27.2024.08.08.16.54.41 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 08 Aug 2024 16:54:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ej1-f48.google.com with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-a7d638a1f27so61704166b.2; Thu, 08 Aug 2024 16:54:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCVqDabQmiwNl4uFbFFVWzl4gLH9LWFJoZpSSIxw5TrDQPTAFcc0LBQ0yuV2PMnYVd4/VJUq@freebsd.org, AJvYcCWRAyWXcAVFdzCwtf/iA5RLWhNndZ2V4BSU2CE3vnO8AGq3OyueZweCRB/ivXSKoO0RWgQ=@freebsd.org X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:2709:b0:599:4d01:1fb6 with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5bbb23456d1mr3323182a12.16.1723161281633; Thu, 08 Aug 2024 16:54:41 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: obiwac Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2024 01:54:30 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Questions about best practices w.r.t. writing a kernel module port which modified LinuxKPI (BATMAN) To: Mark Johnston Cc: freebsd-hackers , imp@freebsd.org, John Baldwin , "shawn.webb@hardenedbsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spamd-Bar: - X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.49 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.72)[-0.721]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[obiwac@freebsd.org,obiwac@gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.13)[0.134]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[freebsd.org : SPF not aligned (relaxed), No valid DKIM,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[209.85.208.179:from,209.85.218.48:received]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[obiwac]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[obiwac@freebsd.org,obiwac@gmail.com]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[209.85.208.179:from]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Wg3n06n6cz4DKC > It's most likely better to try and upstream your changes. Doing so > lowers the amount of effort required of users that wish to test your > module, which makes it more likely that users will test it. Great! > In general, yes. That's what I feared. > Depending on the nature of your linuxkpi > modifications and/or extensions, it might be possible to bundle them in > such a way that the module is portable to different versions of FreeBSD. > > It's hard to say in general. It might be possible to bundle your own linuxkpi extensions, but it depends on what you're changing and adding. I'll save myself the complexity and just base my changes against -CURRENT then. > The typical behaviour for ifconfig is to load requisite kernel modules > automatically when creating a new interface. See ifmaybeload() in > sbin/ifconfig/ifconfig.c. So, it's generally fine for ifconfig to > support functionality that requires a kernel module. I was unaware of this, thank you. This indeed makes most of my ifconfig changes redundant. The only extra thing I was doing was adding a special argument on creation to select the batman routing algorithm, but I guess I can just default it to the most commonly used one and have an external tool available in case someone needs the other routing algo. > It's hard to say without some pointers your code. As a general rule, > integrating your code into FreeBSD reduces the amount of work needed to > keep out-of-tree code up-to-date, but requires more work up front, so > there's a tradeoff involved. Is there a policy against integrating code into FreeBSD which isn't directly useful to what comes with it out of the box though? I.e., the kernel module for batman can't be shipped with FreeBSD as it's GPL. If I write a userspace utility similar to batctl to control these interfaces, I'm assuming this also must be distributed separately and can't be integrated into FreeBSD? > Given that you said that some additional WiFi support is needed to make > your module useful, I wonder if it's worth your time to create a port > first - if I install it locally, would I be able to do anything with it? Not really, no. Without WiFi support it's really just an alternative to OLSR. > You might find that it's better to focus on the module in the near term, > and maybe try to upstream linuxkpi changes in parallel so that it's > easier to create a port later. Okay, that's what I'll do. Thank you for your detailed response and have a great evening! On Fri, 2 Aug 2024 at 02:50, Mark Johnston wrote: > > On Sun, Jul 28, 2024 at 11:04:03PM +0200, obiwac wrote: > > Hi! > > > > I worked on porting the batman_adv Linux kernel module to FreeBSD > > using the LinuxKPI last year as part of a GSoC project and I now have > > time to work on WiFi support for it (which is necessary for it to > > actually be useful in practice). Before I do so though, I'd like to > > create a port for it. I have a few questions about best practices > > w.r.t. going about this which I was unable to answer by myself by > > looking around at other ports (specifically drm-kmod, it's the only > > other port that I know of that distributes a kernel module that > > depends on the LinuxKPI). Here are the two main questions I have: > > > > 1. I have made changes to the LinuxKPI headers and other parts of the > > kernel in order to accommodate batman_adv. Is it okay for me to > > upstream those changes, or should I expect users to apply a patchset > > on their kernel source and to recompile it? > > It's most likely better to try and upstream your changes. Doing so > lowers the amount of effort required of users that wish to test your > module, which makes it more likely that users will test it. > > > If I can upstream them, > > what should I do about older versions than -CURRENT? Will I just have > > to wait for those changes to go into the next -STABLE release? > > In general, yes. Depending on the nature of your linuxkpi > modifications and/or extensions, it might be possible to bundle them in > such a way that the module is portable to different versions of FreeBSD. > > > And if > > so, will that mean that any updates that I make to the LinuxKPI > > headers necessary for newer versions of batman_adv will either have to > > wait until the next release or be distributed alongside the port? > > It's hard to say in general. It might be possible to bundle your own > linuxkpi extensions, but it depends on what you're changing and adding. > > > 2. I have made changes to ifconfig to support the creation of BATMAN > > soft interfaces. Should I upstream those changes and somehow disable > > them when the kernel module is not loaded, or should I distribute a > > patched version of ifconfig with my port? > > The typical behaviour for ifconfig is to load requisite kernel modules > automatically when creating a new interface. See ifmaybeload() in > sbin/ifconfig/ifconfig.c. So, it's generally fine for ifconfig to > support functionality that requires a kernel module. > > > Or should I go with a > > different solution entirely, and write and distribute a tool similar > > to batctl (which from what I understand was the route taken when > > distributing BATMAN on most Linux distros before iproute2 added > > support for managing BATMAN interfaces)? > > It's hard to say without some pointers your code. As a general rule, > integrating your code into FreeBSD reduces the amount of work needed to > keep out-of-tree code up-to-date, but requires more work up front, so > there's a tradeoff involved. > > Given that you said that some additional WiFi support is needed to make > your module useful, I wonder if it's worth your time to create a port > first - if I install it locally, would I be able to do anything with it? > You might find that it's better to focus on the module in the near term, > and maybe try to upstream linuxkpi changes in parallel so that it's > easier to create a port later. > > > Thank you so much in advance for your answers & help! > > > > (Warner, John, I've CC'd you two as you were in the thread on the > > possibility of upstreaming this to the source tree.) > > From nobody Fri Aug 9 15:11:47 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4WgS7H5yZFz5SCGG for ; Fri, 09 Aug 2024 15:11:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vegeta@tuxpowered.net) Received: from mail-lj1-x22e.google.com (mail-lj1-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4WgS7G4S4jz4m5Y for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2024 15:11:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vegeta@tuxpowered.net) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=tuxpowered-net.20230601.gappssmtp.com header.s=20230601 header.b=FODMSg6C; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of vegeta@tuxpowered.net designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::22e as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=vegeta@tuxpowered.net Received: by mail-lj1-x22e.google.com with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2ef2c56d9dcso23535151fa.2 for ; Fri, 09 Aug 2024 08:11:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tuxpowered-net.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1723216311; x=1723821111; darn=freebsd.org; h=autocrypt:subject:from:to:content-language:user-agent:mime-version :date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=rVGk2GIGy8b21oP87wFGbhffilm9lFwZzo3ITmQllPY=; b=FODMSg6Cc47QaTTdtoLgBDQjGrQPNAtWGZ2eky16wMwEy+4BiSdzmsPsE/Amg3GR2r pMVB2lkD/kvyU3foVl07Cqsd8BxSaOy3bMyKPCpHzmEMrGOQhY/+39Gsstu4CjbLg9h6 BqiZaZS0SDDpVq/2/iGXTTknfYRISTghjBgG0Ubpz2SUp/l6s95cFOoYgTJArsOZNi00 cxyXB5ZwX6egSxirVQ88IqWMai/dohyJ1zTl5+jpHiwkdVySpDc+Xs62yehSk561RHA9 8kH85S3sufXvq1aro2l1e7ZwkKbghsl2ohwR0qWdO8rRdnWP/46RHDxXSwJ/mrao9Wy7 z7bg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1723216311; x=1723821111; h=autocrypt:subject:from:to:content-language:user-agent:mime-version :date:message-id:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=rVGk2GIGy8b21oP87wFGbhffilm9lFwZzo3ITmQllPY=; b=JdUBtMsOAI3PID6L+Dzcc+A7Sgm4QQAnwukNIQOdCsabChas+52mN+uaQtYXd+gENW B4loxAZvjlMGeaBqOL0ReUXrBCdB09NuCk+nr+PJ650qujMlPlpaXWIi1of3m6y2ekaA TKYLSC4Vz8W/e+t89LPNPxeVsXdrBjVClYA2xqRtWTCnAgmcltPo3xtDbrkxduoFLJHb 4YF7HFNQ8dC8MduV9EcfXz5L/7c2jQTvQh3O0jkgYo6+Vih62k2htRAwDOlzjbpK1DYX Khfv+36WQQpIB+Ee2SvEAU4JpnfYXgwO6jTAtzj5piqij5Y8T+QUOcXLqllmQjSufD7N nyDg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yzvf+nMYyF6Yu/2W+mUf5gCEDiXoaqCTBu+ZJe/PMQ8Y8KJMZur 1jK1G/T+L861zbTQyFWtgmi5zzVCq9xUgC63HDD+hBYD3o6QLG0B5nBYdoUNWpnlHdVWyLM6H8K z0o8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGI9tCgRg2vNWEujm11gvg1avM6zsql27xdws2SqnJeVplMolBaMvdfVH82gewrthAjnxYP7Q== X-Received: by 2002:a2e:2e11:0:b0:2ef:265e:bb8b with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2f1a6c5a84emr14029311fa.18.1723216310502; Fri, 09 Aug 2024 08:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.148] (31.29.54.208.dynamic-pppoe.dt.ipv4.wtnet.de. [31.29.54.208]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 5b1f17b1804b1-4290c7617b3sm80047145e9.29.2024.08.09.08.11.49 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 09 Aug 2024 08:11:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2024 17:11:47 +0200 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Content-Language: en-GB To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org From: Kajetan Staszkiewicz Subject: refcount without locking? 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MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::22e:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4WgS7G4S4jz4m5Y This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------GRdqO5f1XvEd7bV0Cs0I0GdR Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------lICeWCZL0iO1A1PjZQD6rzw2"; protected-headers="v1" From: Kajetan Staszkiewicz To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: Subject: refcount without locking? --------------lICeWCZL0iO1A1PjZQD6rzw2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGVsbG8gZ3JvdXAsDQoNCkknbSB3b3JraW5nIG9uIHNpbXBsaWZ5aW5nIHNvbWUgYXNwZWN0 cyBvZiBzb3VyY2Ugbm9kZSB0cmFja2luZyBpbiBwZiANCmFuZCBJIHRob3VnaHQgdGhhdCB1 c2luZyByZWZlcmVuY2UgY291bnRpbmcgd291bGQgYWxsb3cgdG8gc2ltcGxpZnkgdGhlIA0K Y29kZSBhIGJpdCBieSBkZXRhY2hpbmcgdGhlIGNvdW50ZXIgb2Ygc3RhdGVzIGF0dGFjaGVk IHRvIGEgc291cmNlIG5vZGUgDQooY3VycmVudGx5IHByZXRlbmRpbmcgdG8gYmUgYSByZWZl cmVuY2UgY291bnRlciB0b28pIGZyb20gYSByZWZlcmVuY2UgDQpjb3VudGVyIChub24tZXhp c3RlbnQgbm93KS4gQnV0IEkgY2FuJ3QgZmlndXJlIG91dCBob3cgcmVmY291bnQoOSkgDQpz aG91bGQgYmUgdXNlZC4NCg0KVGhlIG1hbiBwYWdlIGZvciByZWZjb3VudCg5KSBzdGF0ZXM6 DQoNCiA+IE5vdGUgdGhhdCB0aGVzZSByb3V0aW5lcyBkbyBub3QgcHJvdmlkZSBhbnkgaW50 ZXItQ1BVDQogPiBzeW5jaHJvbml6YXRpb24gb3IgZGF0YSBwcm90ZWN0aW9uIGZvciBtYW5h Z2luZyB0aGUgY291bnRlci4NCg0KQnV0IG1vc3Qgb2YgcmVmZXJlbmNlIGNvdW50aW5nIGZ1 bmN0aW9ucyB1c2UgYXRvbWljIG9wZXJhdGlvbnMuIEkgDQp1bmRlcnN0YW5kIHRoYXQgdGhv c2Ugb3BlcmF0aW9ucyB3aWxsIGd1YXJhbnRlZSB0aGF0IHJlZmVyZW5jZSANCmluY3JlbWVu dHMgYW5kIGRlY3JlbWVudHMgd2lsbCB3b3JrIHByb3Blcmx5IG92ZXIgbXVsdGlwbGUgdGhy ZWFkcyBhbmQgDQptdWx0aXBsZSBDUFVzIG9yIENQVSBjb3Jlcy4NCg0KSG93IHNob3VsZCBy ZWZjb3VudCg5KSBiZSB1c2VkIHJlZ2FyZGluZyBsb2NraW5nPw0KDQotLSANCnwgcG96ZHJh d2lhbSAvIHJlZ2FyZHMgfCBQb3dlcmVkIGJ5IG1hY09TLCBEZWJpYW4gYW5kIEZyZWVCU0Qg fA0KfCBLYWpldGFuIFN0YXN6a2lld2ljeiB8ICB3d3c6IGh0dHA6Ly92ZWdldGEudHV4cG93 ZXJlZC5uZXQgICB8DQpgLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLV4tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLScNCg== --------------lICeWCZL0iO1A1PjZQD6rzw2-- --------------GRdqO5f1XvEd7bV0Cs0I0GdR Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEfSEIcxY9kDeZvSZsgKrXf6bzAFMFAma2MbMFAwAAAAAACgkQgKrXf6bzAFNm kQ/+JvyRIRiF4AHjzViD53Kcm0hWD973K0BH2cT1/V+V+kOszTt64cOvHrMNTzlxjroIGs8WwtOx imv1XXAABc/Zl5Yvdy6w1pkUnvFxv68aptWP63DanpyLUefQM6zg2qXcx3U8ITfePhUS2Ntz/OXj +Uwnhb0kjDkIbgOip3WxBRCx2hMDWgPxvk6SHe2X6Vku9CVUu/a097TeQ9Uov8XLaeEVwr9kSypj D1mACg7EtUbS5xUcmfwessciAxYpeYx9Nh8IGes0bJbOn37+Em+lA8CV8GeLjNv3BdQOaZPx0wFg Y2k5rOvaLkbxKfgJIlkDTLoG101iFjttH8mkujHan6U1TTVzHxCetf0t3rDZTW2dLxWCIblK6acQ TqXN3ztlCwjU+XcE1MDkYk2FFYY6Ts0PVH7JWWaiGO9V88YixGrhHJtj76/1mSdaJJklPmQkOk/Z nBD8At65FXwaBJ7DMS3Kwwxq5+oefl5UAa1TPoCfWeCMVtZqlyXU/6u5oYDrYVVJp98DUYKH+2kH /igjgqVEadic6IOt6MFTHcFV/CFicim0GfXwBsosRlmhim2XnUxebqKbCc2cuRbK/ib9ZdmU8JZ2 NVJz/qr3N7IqZawET3YPm1gUC+BqJjrSYtyRzy95BHfJCtZdHpZw/+FbB/VTIifY0BcAfM2nVmHi tIM= =m9fU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------GRdqO5f1XvEd7bV0Cs0I0GdR-- From nobody Sat Aug 10 15:22:41 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Wh4KJ6f1Jz5T631 for ; 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Sat, 10 Aug 2024 11:22:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2024 16:22:41 +0100 From: void To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: drop synfin Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.53 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[f-m.fm,none]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:103.168.172.128/27]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[f-m.fm:s=fm3,messagingengine.com:s=fm3]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[103.168.172.151:from]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.07)[0.074]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[f-m.fm]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[f-m.fm:+,messagingengine.com:+]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[f-m.fm]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; ASN(0.00)[asn:209242, ipnet:103.168.172.0/24, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[messagingengine.com:dkim] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Wh4KJ0RMwz4MBP Hi, Is it sufficient to EITHER 1. # sysctl net.inet.tcp.drop_synfin=1 OR 2. # sysrc tcp_drop_synfin=YES or 3. must one do both ? -- From nobody Sat Aug 10 15:56:33 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Wh54Y3Y98z5SR7N for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2024 15:56:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net [65.75.216.6]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Wh54X0csjz4SCC; Sat, 10 Aug 2024 15:56:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gndrsh.dnsmgr.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net designates 65.75.216.6 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id 47AFuXx5065670; Sat, 10 Aug 2024 08:56:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id 47AFuXJm065669; Sat, 10 Aug 2024 08:56:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <202408101556.47AFuXJm065669@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: A Demo of rust-in-base In-Reply-To: <202408041904.474J4b9e050871@critter.freebsd.dk> To: Poul-Henning Kamp Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2024 08:56:33 -0700 (PDT) CC: Alan Somers , FreeBSD Hackers X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.79 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.993]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gndrsh.dnsmgr.net,none]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:65.75.216.0/23]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:10494, ipnet:65.75.216.0/23, country:US]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Wh54X0csjz4SCC > -------- > Alan Somers writes: > > On Sun, Aug 4, 2024 at 12:20=E2=80=AFPM Poul-Henning Kamp > dk> wrote: > > > > How is that different from any other dependency management in ports ? > > > > Because those two components need to be updated in lock-step with > > potentially any git commit to the base system. Not just official > > releases, even minor ones. > > I'm not trying to be glib here: I really want to make sure I understand > any fine nuances you are trying to communicate. > > Isn't that precisely what drm-kmod already deals with ? That may be a bad sample, as IIRC, that code is moving back into base because it was found to be "too much of a headache" to maintain externally as a port. Or at least I recall such a discussion occuring. > Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 > phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From nobody Sat Aug 10 16:11:22 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Wh5Pn73yMz5SShr for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2024 16:11:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net [65.75.216.6]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Wh5Pm6V5qz4Vnx for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2024 16:11:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gndrsh.dnsmgr.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net designates 65.75.216.6 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id 47AGBNaU065738; Sat, 10 Aug 2024 09:11:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id 47AGBMV4065737; Sat, 10 Aug 2024 09:11:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <202408101611.47AGBMV4065737@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Diagnosing virtual machine network issues In-Reply-To: <4129CE13-5B1A-4E2E-A9C4-7A0162D1E5CC@comcast.net> To: Alex Arslan Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2024 09:11:22 -0700 (PDT) CC: Bakul Shah , FreeBSD Hackers X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.79 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.986]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gndrsh.dnsmgr.net,none]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:65.75.216.0/23:c]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[comcast.net]; ASN(0.00)[asn:10494, ipnet:65.75.216.0/23, country:US]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Wh5Pm6V5qz4Vnx > > > > On Aug 2, 2024, at 5:58?PM, Bakul Shah wrote: > > > > On Aug 2, 2024, at 3:52?PM, Alex Arslan wrote: > >> > >>> Just a comment and a name server line: > >>> > >>> $ cat /etc/resolv.conf > >>> # Generated by resolvconf > >>> nameserver 192.168.122.1 > >> > >> I believe that is the host IP, so I guess the VM is using the host for DNS > >> resolution? Interestingly, if I add `nameserver 8.8.8.8` below the line > >> with the host IP, it takes 10 seconds rather than 30 to reach the expected > >> domain resolution failure. If I put 8.8.8.8 above the host IP, the domain > >> resolution failure is instantaneous. > > > > What does your host use as a namesever? > > The nameserver is 127.0.0.53. It sets options edns0 and trust-ad, and > includes a search entry as well. First, is that a typo and you mean 127.0.0.1:53? Second, is that name server locked to 127.0.0.1, or is it actually listinging on *:53? If it is LOCKED you have no name server running on 192.168.122.1 to be reached by the VM, if it is NOT locked can the guest ping 192.168.122.1, and can it reach dns at that IP on port 53? Can the host send a packet BACK to the guest? Third you can "fix" the "nameserver 192.168.122.1" entry in /etc/resolv.conf by configuring the DHCP server that handed out the lease to the VM to send a namserver entry of 8.8.8.8. > > > > >> Not a particularly satisfying conclusion to this saga as I don't understand > >> why it's happening but at least I have a workaround that should hopefully > >> do the job. I really appreciate everyone's help and input thus far! > >> > >> What's the best way to add `nameserver 8.8.8.8` to /etc/resolv.conf as > >> part of the VM's configuration? > > > > You should diagnose the problem of the nameserver at 192.168.122.1 > > and fix it to act properly. I don't use vm (just bhyve) so can't help > > you with its config. > > I do still plan to try to figure out what the actual issue is, but I also > now have a path forward in the meantime. :) > > -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From nobody Sun Aug 11 00:22:33 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4WhJJS5RGvz5TSjl for ; Sun, 11 Aug 2024 00:22:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from george+freebsd@m5p.com) Received: from mailhost.m5p.com (mailhost.m5p.com [74.104.188.4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "m5p.com", Issuer "R11" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4WhJJR4g94z4Ltx for ; Sun, 11 Aug 2024 00:22:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from george+freebsd@m5p.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of george+freebsd@m5p.com designates 74.104.188.4 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=george+freebsd@m5p.com Received: from [IPV6:2001:470:8ac4::26] (court.m5p.com [IPv6:2001:470:8ac4:0:0:0:0:26]) (authenticated bits=0) by mailhost.m5p.com (8.18.1/8.17.1) with ESMTPSA id 47B0MYTk016101 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 10 Aug 2024 20:22:40 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from george+freebsd@m5p.com) Message-ID: <61ad7c35-90f7-4a5c-93ec-384503f2d7fa@m5p.com> Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2024 20:22:33 -0400 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Content-Language: en-US To: FreeBSD Hackers From: George Mitchell Subject: CUPS error Autocrypt: addr=george+freebsd@m5p.com; keydata= xjMEZaHDbxYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdA2W6oBfS8haXY0/Ft4zS1OTLYfC8EBIADPTgMQdh85C3N KEdlb3JnZSBNaXRjaGVsbCA8Z2VvcmdlK2ZyZWVic2RAbTVwLmNvbT7CmQQTFgoAQRYhBDpv v9n4+UzMLAJ8EZocD3futmd9BQJlocSiAhsDBQkFo5qABQsJCAcCAiICBhUKCQgLAgQWAgMB Ah4HAheAAAoJEJocD3futmd9SxwBAJUi6DNdVhWCZBTv5XGy1g0JgApLWe/3S0M0zz9sn7/L AQCcJcV5k5s2rt9J5C1AUm6XVsuneVvIWXO5j1GKWk0NC844BGWhw28SCisGAQQBl1UBBQEB B0AaFz/6B95RRvjOdLZr5fSdhuIHvwr24H3ePDZSw6wlUwMBCAfCfgQYFgoAJhYhBDpvv9n4 +UzMLAJ8EZocD3futmd9BQJlocNvAhsMBQkFo5qAAAoJEJocD3futmd9RXsBANwRD9RE56F6 /jeZOrujHICLcgPiOt50Y6866v9OUTjUAP9GlC1aopfBpNwuPLJBam7oBaGqvY98VDhzOjoT 7DNbCQ== Content-Type: multipart/signed; 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R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:701, ipnet:74.104.0.0/16, country:US]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:+,3:~] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4WhJJR4g94z4Ltx This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------7dEhvAWFCNtt8FSILX9PcHQf Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------Nx1PRNP9GmmxI5qGveeG8Exk"; protected-headers="v1" From: George Mitchell To: FreeBSD Hackers Message-ID: <61ad7c35-90f7-4a5c-93ec-384503f2d7fa@m5p.com> Subject: CUPS error --------------Nx1PRNP9GmmxI5qGveeG8Exk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 QWZ0ZXIgeWVhcnMgb2YgYXZvaWRpbmcgQ1VQUyBiZWNhdXNlIGl0IGNvdWxkbid0IHF1aXRl IHByaW50IGNvcnJlY3RseQ0KdG8gbXkgTGV4bWFyayBFMjEwLCBJJ20gdHJ5aW5nIGFnYWlu LiAgSXQgd29ya3MgaGFwcGlseSB3aXRoIG15IEhQDQpMYXNlckpldCAyMDAgY29sb3JNRlAg TTI3Nm53LiAgQnV0IGluIGFkZGluZyBteSBuZXcgSFAgTGFzZXJKZXQgTTIwOWR3LA0KSSBr ZWVwIGdldHRpbmcgdGhpcyBlcnJvciBpbiBteSBDVVBTIGVycm9yX2xvZyB3aGVuIEkgc3Vi bWl0IGEgcHJpbnQNCmpvYjoNCg0KVW5rbm93biBkZXZpY2U6IGN1cHMNCnBybnQvaHBjdXBz L0hQQ3Vwc0ZpbHRlci5jcHAgNTkyOiBjdXBzUmFzdGVyT3BlbiBmYWlsZWQsIGZkID0gMA0K DQooVGhlcmUgYXJlIGEgZmV3IGh1bmRyZWQgbW9yZSBsaW5lcyBvZiBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBh cyB3ZWxsOyBzaG91bGQgSQ0KcG9zdCB0aGUgd2hvbGUgdGhpbmc/KQ0KDQpJJ20gY29tcGls aW5nIGZyb20gcG9ydHMsIGJ1dCBJIGNhbid0IGZpbmQgSFBDdXBzRmlsdGVyLmNwcCBhbnl3 aGVyZS4NClRoZSBDVVBTIEdVSSBKb2JzIGRpc3BsYXkgaGVscGZ1bGx5IHRlbGxzIG1lIG15 IHByaW50IGpvYiBpcyBzdG9wcGVkOg0KIkZpbHRlciBmYWlsZWQiLg0KDQpGcmVlQlNEIDEz LjMtUkVMRUFTRS1wNA0KY3Vwcy0yLjQuMTBfMQ0KY3Vwcy1maWx0ZXJzLTEuMjguMTdfNA0K aHBsaXAtMy4yNC40DQoNCi0tIEdlb3JnZQ0K --------------Nx1PRNP9GmmxI5qGveeG8Exk-- --------------7dEhvAWFCNtt8FSILX9PcHQf Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wnsEABYIACMWIQQ6b7/Z+PlMzCwCfBGaHA937rZnfQUCZrgESQUDAAAAAAAKCRCaHA937rZnfUmA AQDL7meBTzet/OqZPI1glJWpkDqnZBddCQtEJvOAde6JVgD/YmAfs/nloIwv1VWvPL1frKXmdD/5 DoOUs/G81FLsEAo= =+ygw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------7dEhvAWFCNtt8FSILX9PcHQf-- From nobody Sun Aug 11 03:03:31 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4WhNyQ5R3hz5SPHp for ; Sun, 11 Aug 2024 03:52:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Received: from www121.sakura.ne.jp (www121.sakura.ne.jp [153.125.133.21]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4WhNyP1zC3z4mlh for ; Sun, 11 Aug 2024 03:52:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=dec.sakura.ne.jp header.s=s2405 header.b=NVyMDlDn; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=dec.sakura.ne.jp; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp designates 153.125.133.21 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp Received: from kalamity.joker.local (123-1-21-232.area1b.commufa.jp [123.1.21.232]) (authenticated bits=0) by www121.sakura.ne.jp (8.17.1/8.17.1/[SAKURA-WEB]/20201212) with ESMTPA id 47B33WJW084631; Sun, 11 Aug 2024 12:03:33 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=dec.sakura.ne.jp; s=s2405; t=1723345413; bh=ptsBJmIGM8xbKLgAiEQZUXYlFktC4/4I7fKTq0qKn9c=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=NVyMDlDn7CGt6nUWU1a1L5kvEbKViORbi1XeacMHZYS0JP5AtJW7qfeQBoUgn/km0 xWTeiiSbDWmymgnRsKL5MtW5nSIomCuljD9dZ1jeRIpYODFgJcO6ybGgkx758ZaGPy tYQKkbOLuuDyw7wbq5AsipcSqSg7vwq6g2pYL33M= Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2024 12:03:31 +0900 From: Tomoaki AOKI To: George Mitchell Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: CUPS error Message-Id: <20240811120331.7afbbea3613202e2e189ed44@dec.sakura.ne.jp> In-Reply-To: <61ad7c35-90f7-4a5c-93ec-384503f2d7fa@m5p.com> References: <61ad7c35-90f7-4a5c-93ec-384503f2d7fa@m5p.com> Organization: Junchoon corps X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.33; amd64-portbld-freebsd14.1) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spamd-Bar: ++ X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.20 / 15.00]; URIBL_RED(3.50)[dec.sakura.ne.jp:dkim]; SUSPICIOUS_URL_IN_SUSPICIOUS_MESSAGE(1.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.997]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.10)[]; HAS_ANON_DOMAIN(0.10)[]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[dec.sakura.ne.jp:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(0.00)[dec.sakura.ne.jp,none]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(0.00)[dec.sakura.ne.jp:s=s2405]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7684, ipnet:153.125.128.0/18, country:JP]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+ip4:153.125.133.16/28:c]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4WhNyP1zC3z4mlh On Sat, 10 Aug 2024 20:22:33 -0400 George Mitchell wrote: > After years of avoiding CUPS because it couldn't quite print correctly > to my Lexmark E210, I'm trying again. It works happily with my HP > LaserJet 200 colorMFP M276nw. But in adding my new HP LaserJet M209dw, > I keep getting this error in my CUPS error_log when I submit a print > job: > > Unknown device: cups > prnt/hpcups/HPCupsFilter.cpp 592: cupsRasterOpen failed, fd = 0 > > (There are a few hundred more lines of information as well; should I > post the whole thing?) > > I'm compiling from ports, but I can't find HPCupsFilter.cpp anywhere. > The CUPS GUI Jobs display helpfully tells me my print job is stopped: > "Filter failed". > > FreeBSD 13.3-RELEASE-p4 > cups-2.4.10_1 > cups-filters-1.28.17_4 > hplip-3.24.4 > > -- George I'm not using HP printers, so just a prediction. Doesn't any of print/hplip-plugin [1] print/foomatic-db-hpijs [2] needed? [1] https://www.freshports.org/print/hplip-plugin/ [2] https://www.freshports.org/print/foomatic-db-hpijs/ -- Tomoaki AOKI From nobody Sun Aug 11 13:08:49 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4WhdJP43B4z5Sm0K for ; Sun, 11 Aug 2024 13:08:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from omta001.cacentral1.a.cloudfilter.net (omta001.cacentral1.a.cloudfilter.net [3.97.99.32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4WhdJN6nNcz50Yr for ; Sun, 11 Aug 2024 13:08:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from shw-obgw-4002a.ext.cloudfilter.net ([10.228.9.250]) by cmsmtp with ESMTPS id d3hEstpYGkYKFd8JXsae0i; Sun, 11 Aug 2024 13:08:51 +0000 Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.66.152.170]) by cmsmtp with ESMTPSA id d8JWsUKt62M9qd8JXsMGJj; Sun, 11 Aug 2024 13:08:51 +0000 X-Auth-User: cschuber X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.4 cv=ce5xrWDM c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=66b8b7e3 a=y8EK/9tc/U6QY+pUhnbtgQ==:117 a=y8EK/9tc/U6QY+pUhnbtgQ==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=yoJbH4e0A30A:10 a=m5QXn6DzAAAA:8 a=q56oFxeYAAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=EkcXrb_YAAAA:8 a=Ihfl9ePbW0eKx0Zmf7QA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=MVGw0nVQe49WX2woHWDl:22 a=qBExKzQAi2vkqq_k2JMc:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 a=LK5xJRSDVpKd5WXXoEvA:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy [10.1.1.91]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9355F47F; Sun, 11 Aug 2024 06:08:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by slippy.cwsent.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 606231AC; Sun, 11 Aug 2024 06:08:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.9.0 11/07/2018 with nmh-1.8+dev Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: Tomoaki AOKI cc: George Mitchell , FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: CUPS error In-reply-to: <20240811120331.7afbbea3613202e2e189ed44@dec.sakura.ne.jp> References: <61ad7c35-90f7-4a5c-93ec-384503f2d7fa@m5p.com> <20240811120331.7afbbea3613202e2e189ed44@dec.sakura.ne.jp> Comments: In-reply-to Tomoaki AOKI message dated "Sun, 11 Aug 2024 12:03:31 +0900." List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2024 06:08:49 -0700 Message-Id: <20240811130849.606231AC@slippy.cwsent.com> X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4xfB4a0iAhwsthNmQv/KyBuarETz5hSyIhasrJfb6khUIaC0P6OznfJa/YV6CCI4YpvJJ+qy43ZwBKQhFfiCmkeno1PfmPAar0IvgDg3xbH7lp4sSC9816 sieOCGCvIMAUb6u8IQwGuo8skfwXPhQoIQ9zkFv0Og5cJQ7nfI2uGPZAmH2JJGfjcCdrvUDEQiqYUZORRfekq3B9AsKGE7yjAeDmCa+fU7bTJjHA5aEtJYm8 JaSwqfaCCVPcstXePtHQ3nUcFURwMYJ698Ln7cBCGPESJNQcE+TXQq8+FDE7AfTt X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16509, ipnet:3.96.0.0/15, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4WhdJN6nNcz50Yr In message <20240811120331.7afbbea3613202e2e189ed44@dec.sakura.ne.jp>, Tomoaki AOKI writes: > On Sat, 10 Aug 2024 20:22:33 -0400 > George Mitchell wrote: > > > After years of avoiding CUPS because it couldn't quite print correctly > > to my Lexmark E210, I'm trying again. It works happily with my HP > > LaserJet 200 colorMFP M276nw. But in adding my new HP LaserJet M209dw, > > I keep getting this error in my CUPS error_log when I submit a print > > job: > > > > Unknown device: cups > > prnt/hpcups/HPCupsFilter.cpp 592: cupsRasterOpen failed, fd = 0 > > > > (There are a few hundred more lines of information as well; should I > > post the whole thing?) > > > > I'm compiling from ports, but I can't find HPCupsFilter.cpp anywhere. > > The CUPS GUI Jobs display helpfully tells me my print job is stopped: > > "Filter failed". > > > > FreeBSD 13.3-RELEASE-p4 > > cups-2.4.10_1 > > cups-filters-1.28.17_4 > > hplip-3.24.4 > > > > -- George > > I'm not using HP printers, so just a prediction. > > Doesn't any of > print/hplip-plugin [1] > print/foomatic-db-hpijs [2] > needed? This is correct. I have an HP printer and these packages are also needed. > > [1] https://www.freshports.org/print/hplip-plugin/ > > [2] https://www.freshports.org/print/foomatic-db-hpijs/ > > -- > Tomoaki AOKI > -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: https://FreeBSD.org NTP: Web: https://nwtime.org e^(i*pi)+1=0 From nobody Sun Aug 11 18:47:51 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4WhmsF2H73z5TPvM for ; Sun, 11 Aug 2024 18:49:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from george+freebsd@m5p.com) Received: from mailhost.m5p.com (mailhost.m5p.com [74.104.188.4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "m5p.com", Issuer "R11" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4WhmsD72FDz4Rm3 for ; Sun, 11 Aug 2024 18:49:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from george+freebsd@m5p.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from [IPV6:2001:470:1f07:15ff::26] (court.m5p.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:15ff:0:0:0:26]) (authenticated bits=0) by mailhost.m5p.com (8.18.1/8.17.1) with ESMTPSA id 47BIlqpW021978 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 11 Aug 2024 14:47:57 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from george+freebsd@m5p.com) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2024 14:47:51 -0400 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: CUPS error To: Cy Schubert , Tomoaki AOKI Cc: FreeBSD Hackers References: <61ad7c35-90f7-4a5c-93ec-384503f2d7fa@m5p.com> <20240811120331.7afbbea3613202e2e189ed44@dec.sakura.ne.jp> <20240811130849.606231AC@slippy.cwsent.com> Content-Language: en-US From: George Mitchell Autocrypt: addr=george+freebsd@m5p.com; 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Sun, 11 Aug 2024 18:59:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Alexander@Leidinger.net) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=leidinger.net header.s=outgoing-alex header.b=zysJGorE; dmarc=pass (policy=quarantine) header.from=leidinger.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of Alexander@Leidinger.net designates 89.238.82.207 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=Alexander@Leidinger.net List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=leidinger.net; s=outgoing-alex; t=1723402772; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=G+tyaooL7znv+GgUBOy1ep1WWKk8eHKuUVj7YaiJiiY=; b=zysJGorEcesPOo85vpRqO2U8iT3X2AdFxWUGpd1mk3e+DoBK6LLTZJYhcMP9GLklFPL1JC x732wUoPkT3zh8PeJcBousEdAUpiD7t5JXKkPmJZRNLqumxyRf149Gp9lE8YbT28hRAnRJ cxb9RWak9tScJGGUN6Mnrqe4zBKQzYoJtwYbf6+b+PIIpzv1Zq8LXZ7dfcux2I4zAkSteI tRU/QJhNJxw7VyQZIwyfiS9mj5YOBNNCLeOtI/mSUp1gqq8O+2ipxHyEHA41ly3HHj9OC1 sC1rtRAw2dCnPQJQxWSMVWsRM0SXb5WcRfxj8yiLwkBQ5+EAZmV949wzPigFmQ== Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2024 20:58:42 +0200 From: Alexander Leidinger To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: drop synfin In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <611d5268ddab322fca7d3996e81256e3@Leidinger.net> Organization: No organization, this is a private message. Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=_38746ea321057ba28789d774ddf35b42"; micalg=pgp-sha256 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.09 / 15.00]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.989]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[leidinger.net,quarantine]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[leidinger.net:s=outgoing-alex]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34240, ipnet:89.238.64.0/18, country:DE]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[leidinger.net:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; HAS_ATTACHMENT(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Whn581Nypz4TJ9 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --=_38746ea321057ba28789d774ddf35b42 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Am 2024-08-10 17:22, schrieb void: > Hi, > > Is it sufficient to > > EITHER > > 1. # sysctl net.inet.tcp.drop_synfin=1 This changes the current setting (activates the feature in the currently running system, but not after the next reboot). > 2. # sysrc tcp_drop_synfin=YES This activates the feature on next reboot (or start of the rc.d/ script which looks at this setting). > or > > 3. must one do both ? Depends on what you want to do... having it currently active and active on next reboot -> yes, both. Bye, Alexander. -- http://www.Leidinger.net Alexander@Leidinger.net: PGP 0x8F31830F9F2772BF http://www.FreeBSD.org netchild@FreeBSD.org : PGP 0x8F31830F9F2772BF --=_38746ea321057ba28789d774ddf35b42 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc; size=833 Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEER9UlYXp1PSd08nWXEg2wmwP42IYFAma5CfIACgkQEg2wmwP4 2IY/MQ/+Ic/f8G1Sot8oH39kAnK59TQZVumUXOcrnwnihMla5a6visCHxuWegSIY i2XDqyzmUzQJ7xBYxEaFrIqU7I8PQYTKkCyg3KU5fAsWIiUo3cFnCwSJYSkkps1i KQw5OswUGQmeICFB6etUhyB9q+Y/54GQCVgK1oWscy0L61o6fVsi/ccoOHtJ8Mvv aAxt2+Vu6x2SMtIlPqqZJaR51vt9mly8FJ5dfXBVqvkHv9WgsLMozI6EtjzGUg+d EwYUcZkIJtadxTJ/W92wEl1e6m1RZsogLJ5keWV5m1sP3PMHHCsJpcTa3b8rq1a9 tsyI4bjCZHkJ5q2cvO9g3+UutN8MYQj5+mpfnf5r9mQiVDMlgWR8In7BEZ3ZtDRH 5HJtQB6r9vN7ysIahdhJedXANpKz6kIuP/DFiHL+cRI5csdg8M+IfiBi7gkLN/2s I/aHxzX5oZSbBNXK7TmdYFtKHwYDPURsx2FA2A84qSBPWSwr9ay3eroQ8rktNCSR TniIpGhY8Bc6/DqTymuMTHG10+GRuEjqQpE4gwW2dHanehVBQ6iqCzltZ4Lg0u7L k2iBandXGA65jYhWTiGc8IfAbtJeSKVftMslnLWNX7CTiy+gtdgidkHWZ7O9kP71 e/z1+SWohxMnWQhNwQbLy1URCrfr73XoYIwSzLrchlEQ2TFx7aQ= =T03p -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=_38746ea321057ba28789d774ddf35b42--