From nobody Fri Aug 1 14:22:18 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bwfDZ1zdcz646JP; Mon, 04 Aug 2025 14:33:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bwfDZ0Zn8z3dFT; Mon, 04 Aug 2025 14:33:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754317998; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=Z8+sy9pc/pddbvcDmFcwNCKz4ydQPwWt5manOlWGoOM=; b=TmK/0/6LEoy7D5oUFlLsbovm1EBkh5qh3FEHiALB7tzmCw208WRKCBzUvxI7DZlMt4RihE J+FhLeOOwLLL4sSD2a8YSqeoY4j1eX7Bw0MX9DU7LYyR3/DgUY5bK2g9p5Qypa2tCYHNGH pP4Cs51dANLdixPZ7IoauqVtXi5T1hlE6OdxqOVGTsiGUEBvsOhzzYLqHas5BvdUQ7ygyl ZU3Apb9BNGCfjMwSLLj6ajBN+s9prOWW96/856FihECvogVQXSmn7dfgy7O5xhNFocB/dk X1aB/dFeaKJztggUTQUx+DlyzQnLYM/qS5WHN/bn9mp7Hbuwp0gbD3MQ8zlYEw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754317998; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=Z8+sy9pc/pddbvcDmFcwNCKz4ydQPwWt5manOlWGoOM=; b=kfMLLFXjQxaP4Q3LWL7XrIcuGx4GDdkYfkPrkc7HvJlWVLSv37M9IuPDU3AYzBlZ3gtwdH hH0uoOmFZPmASNQhECh1Lvmb4tMwG07Utdcf0m7zn6Zpy0lnA/ZnY7RNjwrwhabzuWMy2/ TdTQbEq30gS3x1kgMYyjhs8pfvGpDfv9NHlB2e793oVZlhsk+BMukd4qNul2vSvh/7vWZK mr1zDY2R5fnL3L65MxIlR6UdYoIDIkqeCwGryHq1yxTM6T6gYu0iJnOAwHs69SJ0GVKmsy oNoMXF1E2BIcv1JPMWD41hZ+llkwFFNMNtn+xxxhBS1oZJNFT7VS6WqmR3hdtQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1754317998; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=xDdEGttE35K8zbJwzxbl3mJ7XINiGhEvzrbhQDZnI/p3FMqcS+D4R76MoF4Y3hhZxYz412 e33f/2c7HnAhHJnNybCGgVuMSY3NiDxea6vvGU6eea1QQw6uCTCWiprokDTZj+qZaxUB5M /DDRuJO8033LIHBfMRY2JvhCamEcT/2FMO2PLndQ/Iv6yOcaVrS1+DIezYzITTzaZjGrXU OObEtLy4ubA0p7idqTgK9k0YG44KcVh13hpbF36pGUxbYGNJt1vhLENxfg8nX2nGCdWQCM s/0nx7/b/XxE3ZbonXQuvLvAkHql/rr1Ef880FXQEn+pmxg5up3dLma3XnHVMQ== Received: from smtp.theravensnest.org (smtp.theravensnest.org [45.77.103.195]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: theraven) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4bwfDY6hJ5zBbb; Mon, 04 Aug 2025 14:33:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtpclient.apple (host86-143-41-189.range86-143.btcentralplus.com [86.143.41.189]) by smtp.theravensnest.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A096D138E4; Fri, 01 Aug 2025 15:22:34 +0100 (BST) From: David Chisnall Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9D5667ED-63EA-434D-AC2A-443557F0C968" List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3776.700.51.11.1\)) Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2025 15:22:18 +0100 In-Reply-To: Cc: vermaden , Shawn Webb , "freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , pete@nomadlogic.org, bapt@freebsd.org, bane@pmf.uns.ac.rs To: Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3776.700.51.11.1) --Apple-Mail=_9D5667ED-63EA-434D-AC2A-443557F0C968 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On 31 Jul 2025, at 02:57, Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> wrote: >=20 > I would also like to separate it. Use one command to update (upgrade) = 3rd party packages and another to update (upgrade) base packages. It is = our workflow for the last 25+ years thus running one command to update = both is really unexpected and unwanted. I disagree here. If you *want* to separate them, then you can: you can = specify the repository that you want to upgrade explicitly. But if you = do then you risk things like: - I=E2=80=99ve upgraded my base system, but not my ports-kmods things, = so now my GUI doesn=E2=80=99t start. - I=E2=80=99ve upgraded ports, but the ports tree is built on a newer = point release and I need to upgrade to make some symbols exist. - I=E2=80=99ve upgraded the base system and now some kmods from ports = don=E2=80=99t work. All of these are things that users have complained about publicly in the = last year or so. =20 I have avoided them by always doing `freebsd-update install && pkg = upgrade` and keeping that in my shell history[1] so I don=E2=80=99t = accidentally forget to upgrade both together. Given a choice between a thing that works for users, or something that = *can* work for users but comes with a bunch of footguns that they need = to avoid, I=E2=80=99d pick the former. David [1] I=E2=80=99ve noticed on fresh installs, the default shell no longer = has working persistent history, which is a *big* POLA violation, if = people want to complain about something.= --Apple-Mail=_9D5667ED-63EA-434D-AC2A-443557F0C968 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On 31 Jul = 2025, at 02:57, Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> = wrote:

I would also like to separate it. Use one = command to update (upgrade) 3rd party packages and another to update = (upgrade) base packages. It is our workflow for the last 25+ years thus = running one command to update both is really unexpected and = unwanted.

I disagree = here.  If you *want* to separate them, then you can: you can = specify the repository that you want to upgrade explicitly.  But if = you do then you risk things like:

 - = I=E2=80=99ve upgraded my base system, but not my ports-kmods things, so = now my GUI doesn=E2=80=99t start.
 - I=E2=80=99ve = upgraded ports, but the ports tree is built on a newer point release and = I need to upgrade to make some symbols exist.
 - I=E2=80=99= ve upgraded the base system and now some kmods from ports don=E2=80=99t = work.

All of these are things that users have = complained about publicly in the last year or so. =  

I have avoided them by always doing = `freebsd-update install && pkg upgrade` and keeping that in my = shell history[1] so I don=E2=80=99t accidentally forget to upgrade both = together.

Given a choice between a thing that = works for users, or something that *can* work for users but comes with a = bunch of footguns that they need to avoid, I=E2=80=99d pick the = former.

David

[1] = I=E2=80=99ve noticed on fresh installs, the default shell no longer has = working persistent history, which is a *big* POLA violation, if people = want to complain about something.
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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID c4484a5656acd26ecc0d7ee607a31c89; Mon, 04 Aug 2025 14:52:05 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.600.51.1.1\)) Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature From: Mark Millard In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2025 07:51:54 -0700 Cc: Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz>, vermaden , Shawn Webb , "freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , pete@nomadlogic.org, bapt@freebsd.org, bane@pmf.uns.ac.rs Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8690FF2F-B66D-423E-815C-9D64700A7D7D@yahoo.com> References: To: David Chisnall X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.600.51.1.1) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bwffQ1P5Zz3hsr X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36647, ipnet:98.137.64.0/20, country:US] On Aug 1, 2025, at 07:22, David Chisnall wrote: > On 31 Jul 2025, at 02:57, Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> wrote: >>=20 >> I would also like to separate it. Use one command to update (upgrade) = 3rd party packages and another to update (upgrade) base packages. It is = our workflow for the last 25+ years thus running one command to update = both is really unexpected and unwanted. >=20 > I disagree here. If you *want* to separate them, then you can: you = can specify the repository that you want to upgrade explicitly. But if = you do then you risk things like: >=20 > - I=E2=80=99ve upgraded my base system, but not my ports-kmods = things, so now my GUI doesn=E2=80=99t start. PkgBase does not remove the issue that updating the kernel first, rebooting, and then updating the world can be a requirement. (World should get a later reboot as well.) Last I knew PkgBase did not manage this sequence of itself, even for when kmods are not involved. I selectively update the kernels first and reboot before updating teh other PkgBase packages. (The plural 'kernels' is because I'm using main and have all the PkgBase kernels installed. One can not do that for non-main for contexts with .dtb files involved: conflicts.) Is it always safe to update all the ports-kmods before the world is updated so they are in place for the after-kernel reboot with the old world? If not, then PkgBase is not of itself a way of making the handling automatic as far as I can tell. > - I=E2=80=99ve upgraded ports, but the ports tree is built on a newer = point release and I need to upgrade to make some symbols exist. > - I=E2=80=99ve upgraded the base system and now some kmods from ports = don=E2=80=99t work. >=20 > All of these are things that users have complained about publicly in = the last year or so. =20 >=20 > I have avoided them by always doing `freebsd-update install && pkg = upgrade` and keeping that in my shell history[1] so I don=E2=80=99t = accidentally forget to upgrade both together. >=20 > Given a choice between a thing that works for users, or something that = *can* work for users but comes with a bunch of footguns that they need = to avoid, I=E2=80=99d pick the former. >=20 > David >=20 > [1] I=E2=80=99ve noticed on fresh installs, the default shell no = longer has working persistent history, which is a *big* POLA violation, = if people want to complain about something. >=20 =3D=3D=3D Mark Millard marklmi at yahoo.com From nobody Mon Aug 4 15:33:38 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bwgZJ2XMqz6498F; Mon, 04 Aug 2025 15:33:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=W2Kv=2Q=quip.cz=000.fbsd@elsa.codelab.cz) Received: from elsa.codelab.cz (elsa.codelab.cz [94.124.105.4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bwgZH6Kdtz3q2Y; Mon, 04 Aug 2025 15:33:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=W2Kv=2Q=quip.cz=000.fbsd@elsa.codelab.cz) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from elsa.codelab.cz (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by elsa.codelab.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 680B6D78B0; Mon, 4 Aug 2025 17:33:41 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=quip.cz; s=private; t=1754321621; bh=3OrNOCxqamRJ74zhuHxBPc7HZi7cT85rtpbgGg1T7xQ=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=ZVEtAQUd7niVGJwe6HTLd5LvAodPYHZwobMNpo6AtCuNebYzuC8Dk17nvTTS4hnGi Y/C+atu19BIV7jIuvGY3f7XgUeUXGsHIlGrgl1FfdfE4/BzDs6j0xKQVzJ/t0+pqYy fk+acOTNHqCcrRmU1xebQgPgRa6AWdwmqjZxt8mg= Received: from [192.168.145.49] (ip-89-177-27-225.bb.vodafone.cz [89.177.27.225]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by elsa.codelab.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 95483D78A9; Mon, 4 Aug 2025 17:33:38 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=quip.cz; s=private; t=1754321618; bh=3OrNOCxqamRJ74zhuHxBPc7HZi7cT85rtpbgGg1T7xQ=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=0SzpXLqZNkDNOK/ujoBdRyXSJiGMHSj9qEnF0fUrHUJNfl722WUmjm9RH0410Ycs1 UViwTAbHyMXV4/vFS31W7Bg6OVuvZ7edB04D3fIVBTsSQkyR+FlI3CKbe977mdv216 7qmtpXUeP6vBDNxYjlRHRxW9oj6GnMah4hgnf5K4= Message-ID: <9a03be4d-4621-445c-980d-e63c7f163e78@quip.cz> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2025 17:33:38 +0200 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature To: David Chisnall Cc: vermaden , Shawn Webb , "freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , pete@nomadlogic.org, bapt@freebsd.org, bane@pmf.uns.ac.rs References: Content-Language: en-US From: Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bwgZH6Kdtz3q2Y X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:42000, ipnet:94.124.104.0/21, country:CZ] On 01/08/2025 16:22, David Chisnall wrote: > On 31 Jul 2025, at 02:57, Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> wrote: >> >> I would also like to separate it. Use one command to update (upgrade) >> 3rd party packages and another to update (upgrade) base packages. It >> is our workflow for the last 25+ years thus running one command to >> update both is really unexpected and unwanted. > > I disagree here.  If you *want* to separate them, then you can: you can > specify the repository that you want to upgrade explicitly.  But if you > do then you risk things like: > >  - I’ve upgraded my base system, but not my ports-kmods things, so now > my GUI doesn’t start. >  - I’ve upgraded ports, but the ports tree is built on a newer point > release and I need to upgrade to make some symbols exist. >  - I’ve upgraded the base system and now some kmods from ports don’t work. > > All of these are things that users have complained about publicly in the > last year or so. > > I have avoided them by always doing `freebsd-update install && pkg > upgrade` and keeping that in my shell history[1] so I don’t accidentally > forget to upgrade both together. > > Given a choice between a thing that works for users, or something that > *can* work for users but comes with a bunch of footguns that they need > to avoid, I’d pick the former. > > David > > [1] I’ve noticed on fresh installs, the default shell no longer has > working persistent history, which is a *big* POLA violation, if people > want to complain about something. I see your point, but our workflow is much different. One command to upgrade base and packages at the same time is like "one to break it all" to me. I have seen broken "pkg upgrade" so many times... but it never breaks base and running ssh so I am still able to fix it somehow.. Running FreeBSD for more than 25 years on tens of machines (headless servers) and I never need to do upgrade of base and packages at the same time. I am not saying nobody need it. Yes it can be useful on upgrading desktops or other installations with kmods, but I think it still can be done in 2 separate steps to keep the base untouched if user wants it. Mainly when there is another step needed - etcupdate. Having base and packages upgraded and only then fixing conflicts with etcupdate seems very bad idea to me. Kind regards Miroslav Lachman From nobody Mon Aug 4 18:47:54 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bwltc5lwCz63NGb; Mon, 04 Aug 2025 18:48:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Received: from smtpo49.interia.pl (smtpo49.interia.pl [217.74.67.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bwltc0n3dz49tW; Mon, 04 Aug 2025 18:48:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2025 20:47:54 +0200 From: vermaden Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature To: Mark Millard , David Chisnall Cc: Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz>, Shawn Webb , "freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , "pete@nomadlogic.org" , "bapt@freebsd.org" , "bane@pmf.uns.ac.rs" X-Mailer: interia.pl/pf09 In-Reply-To: <8690FF2F-B66D-423E-815C-9D64700A7D7D@yahoo.com> References: <8690FF2F-B66D-423E-815C-9D64700A7D7D@yahoo.com> X-Originating-IP: 45.148.42.1 Message-Id: List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=interia.pl; s=biztos; t=1754333285; bh=IzslqACS+rM2Cr3dSJ7KNFU4EsGLydotASFbFxzcscs=; h=Date:From:Subject:To:Message-Id:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=uGE9FYcp8BtlRQyNv9qceluR3j1+RpwNkxzQhi9tpJiyGMYv08V0R6uVs6G+cPYfO rrUYbZjWSX9vAyhg45bbzeHpd53GXCEJEgecsP2lybpoYXiLYR7VYIdZscJgA1mUKV xGjitWbCp2mWy/QtVTG+yDSMnW6K9n56x90PNh1o= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bwltc0n3dz49tW X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16138, ipnet:217.74.64.0/22, country:PL] Hi. > PkgBase does not remove the issue that updating > the kernel first, rebooting, and then updating the > world can be a requirement. > (World should get a later reboot as well.) Not related to PKGBASE - but as you will be doing a reboot after the update= /upgrade anyway - its safer and easier to do the upgrade inside separate ZF= S Boot Environment - as running kernel does not 'conflict' with the one ins= talled/upgraded inside the ZFS BE. So you do all the possible steps needed = - upgrading base - upgrading packages ... Details: https://vermaden.wordpress.com/2021/02/23/upgrade-freebsd-with-zfs-boot-env= ironments/ Another good aspect of doing it this way is limiting downtime to just a reb= oot time - because while you were doing the upgrade - the 'host' system sti= ll works untouched - then after you are done - you reboot into upgraded ZFS= BE and check if everything works - and if not you just reboot again into t= he ZFS BE that worked perfectly before the upgrade and have 'endless' time = to figure out what the issue with the upgrade was. Hope that helps. Regards, vermaden Temat: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Data: 2025-08-04 16:52 Nadawca: "Mark Millard" <marklmi@yahoo.com> Adresat: "David Chisnall" <theraven@FreeBSD.org>;=20 DW: "Miroslav Lachman" <000.fbsd@quip.cz>; "vermaden" <vermaden@inter= ia.pl>; "Shawn Webb" <shawn.webb@hardenedbsd.org>; "freebsd-pkgbase@free= bsd.org" <freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org>; "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" <= ;freebsd-stable@freebsd.org>; "freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org" <freebsd-pkg@fre= ebsd.org>; "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" <freebsd-current@freebsd.org>; = pete@nomadlogic.org; bapt@freebsd.org; bane@pmf.uns.ac.rs;=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 > On Aug 1, 2025, at 07:22, David Chisnall wrote: >=20 >> On 31 Jul 2025, at 02:57, Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> wrote: >>>=20 >>> I would also like to separate it. Use one command to update (upgrade) 3rd party packages and another to update (upgrade) base packages. It is our workflow for the last 25+ years thus running one command to update both is really unexpected and unwanted. >>=20 >> I disagree here. If you *want* to separate them, then you can: you can specify the repository that you want to upgrade explicitly. But if you do then you risk things like: >>=20 >> - I=E2=80=99ve upgraded my base system, but not my ports-kmods things, = so now my GUI doesn=E2=80=99t start. >=20 > PkgBase does not remove the issue that updating the kernel > first, rebooting, and then updating the world can be a > requirement. (World should get a later reboot as well.) >=20 > Last I knew PkgBase did not manage this sequence of itself, > even for when kmods are not involved. I selectively update > the kernels first and reboot before updating teh other > PkgBase packages. (The plural 'kernels' is because I'm > using main and have all the PkgBase kernels installed. > One can not do that for non-main for contexts with .dtb > files involved: conflicts.) >=20 > Is it always safe to update all the ports-kmods before the > world is updated so they are in place for the after-kernel > reboot with the old world? >=20 > If not, then PkgBase is not of itself a way of making the > handling automatic as far as I can tell. >=20 >> - I=E2=80=99ve upgraded ports, but the ports tree is built on a newer point release and I need to upgrade to make some symbols exist. >> - I=E2=80=99ve upgraded the base system and now some kmods from ports don=E2=80=99t work. >>=20 >> All of these are things that users have complained about publicly in the last year or so. =20 >>=20 >> I have avoided them by always doing `freebsd-update install && p= kg upgrade` and keeping that in my shell history[1] so I don=E2=80=99t acciden= tally forget to upgrade both together. >>=20 >> Given a choice between a thing that works for users, or something that *can* work for users but comes with a bunch of footguns that they need to avoid, I=E2=80=99d pick the former. >>=20 >> David >>=20 >> [1] I=E2=80=99ve noticed on fresh installs, the default shell no longer has working persistent history, which is a *big* POLA violation, if people want to complain about something. >>=20 >=20 >=20 > =3D=3D=3D > Mark Millard > marklmi at yahoo.com >=20 >=20 >=20 From nobody Mon Aug 4 18:50:45 2025 X-Original-To: current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bwlyv499mz63NPK for ; Mon, 04 Aug 2025 18:51:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Alexander@Leidinger.net) Received: from mailgate.Leidinger.net (bastille.leidinger.net [89.238.82.207]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature ECDSA (prime256v1) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mailgate.leidinger.net", Issuer "E5" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bwlys5rkNz4FB6 for ; Mon, 04 Aug 2025 18:51:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Alexander@Leidinger.net) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=leidinger.net header.s=outgoing-alex header.b=QsOpnIKv; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of Alexander@Leidinger.net designates 89.238.82.207 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=Alexander@Leidinger.net; dmarc=pass (policy=quarantine) header.from=leidinger.net List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=leidinger.net; s=outgoing-alex; t=1754333470; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type; bh=zeOwydS5VEinuzYFcwpSXV6dXYAqaqOi5WY1M06V7yA=; b=QsOpnIKvQkLae7QlNOAl2hH0pX4gLBcZkP7UTNSkdGbVoEZHxZnH88AfbhqZIp/SBj9/I1 uTznA/gG+AueOtDaNrrfsNd89+j3qUzGiEBUSDbeJyJ1trObmIOR6NTzIQLv/dNYcIMROp 9Dq8VGzvk9X+YEbSjp/MZjDls2kDCWHgSV8UZbb+q4svI9dMcfEQ3g0HwxcAAQOIr4fvne i+sH86ebG6FO6HVQTaE/iK6zoRojoSW+mTY8SzqkgsxSF8upGxvKGaypiLRy/ykpkL2GjJ Hoc0XHd9f/zZvT1opuQ6sb1H6/JOfPJAJ5ogFkZr5MUeHUcVuyKj3+hyreuwDw== Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2025 20:50:45 +0200 From: Alexander Leidinger To: Current Subject: panic: fsync: vnode is not exclusive locked but should be Message-ID: <879c4b3b4daa32dd7b975640f18b6103@Leidinger.net> Organization: No organization, this is a private message. Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=_3bbc4419750e065c4e1fa44668ed3352"; micalg=pgp-sha256 X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.00 / 15.00]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[leidinger.net,quarantine]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[leidinger.net:s=outgoing-alex]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.10)[]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34240, ipnet:89.238.64.0/18, country:DE]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[leidinger.net:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[current@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; HAS_ATTACHMENT(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bwlys5rkNz4FB6 X-Spamd-Bar: ----- This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --=_3bbc4419750e065c4e1fa44668ed3352 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Hi, I have a crash with todays -current: ---snip--- [435] VNASSERT failed: locked not true at /space/system/usr_src/sys/kern/vfs_subr.c:5795 (assert_vop_elocked) [435] 0xfffff806746f2000: type VREG state VSTATE_CONSTRUCTED op 0xffffffff835474f8 [435] usecount 1, writecount 1, refcount 1 seqc users 0 [435] hold count flags () [435] flags () [435] v_object 0xfffff80bd3abf0f8 ref 0 pages 0 cleanbuf 0 dirtybuf 0 [435] lock type zfs: SHARED (count 1) [435] vp=0xfffff806746f2000, lowervp=0xfffff806749bd370 [435] panic: fsync: vnode is not exclusive locked but should be [435] cpuid = 6 [435] time = 1754331603 [435] KDB: stack backtrace: [435] db_trace_self_wrapper() at db_trace_self_wrapper+0x2b/frame 0xfffffe0761c76bb0 [435] vpanic() at vpanic+0x136/frame 0xfffffe0761c76ce0 [435] panic() at panic+0x43/frame 0xfffffe0761c76d40 [435] vop_fsync_debugprepost() at vop_fsync_debugprepost+0x102/frame 0xfffffe0761c76d70 [435] VOP_FSYNC_APV() at VOP_FSYNC_APV+0x23/frame 0xfffffe0761c76d90 [435] kern_fsync() at kern_fsync+0x109/frame 0xfffffe0761c76e00 [435] amd64_syscall() at amd64_syscall+0x16a/frame 0xfffffe0761c76f30 [435] fast_syscall_common() at fast_syscall_common+0xf8/frame 0xfffffe0761c76f30 [435] --- syscall (95, FreeBSD ELF64, fsync), rip = 0x3d917a21f0a, rsp = 0x3d90b281448, rbp = 0x3d90b281460 --- [435] Uptime: 7m15s ---snip--- This repeats at each boot. crashinfo doesn't provide an useful backtrace, I think we need a way to provide the location of the debug symbols: ---snip--- Reading symbols from /tmp/be_mount.qjKC/boot/kernel/kernel... (No debugging symbols found in /tmp/be_mount.qjKC/boot/kernel/kernel) 'osreldate' has unknown type; cast it to its declared type (kgdb) No thread selected. (kgdb) (kgdb) Python Exception : 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'value' Error occurred in Python: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'value' (kgdb) ---snip--- Bye, Alexander. -- http://www.Leidinger.net Alexander@Leidinger.net: PGP 0x8F31830F9F2772BF http://www.FreeBSD.org netchild@FreeBSD.org : PGP 0x8F31830F9F2772BF --=_3bbc4419750e065c4e1fa44668ed3352 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc; size=833 Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEER9UlYXp1PSd08nWXEg2wmwP42IYFAmiRARQACgkQEg2wmwP4 2IagsA//fUyzU7WUxrmt9X+TKqnbt0rTPbWd6Oqh/OMM625eS/FpV4wEvZ5kFa28 VKucjtlkzIQA4vW0o03jExuDKBuixmocsbzXioVQcHXjsaiL1q5aAVc3wj5DSZ/N IDIsTU1x8m+IHKWYoLgonZo8BrgOKRGI8yPJJF0Y1ND4VfcwgVm0lI1mzBMQJDEl Zaffy4U1CH8PHBKVWAo97+PNRtSAm4Op1B+yZlYE60dabxsz0e1HCgviKjh23O6u t7OU8jNsuBmvGuF5yBGlgdNKp5C8LyItgocpAdLsIytzWzRzkxzGtPVBpH2PbsXl BfHP0HmS/rrqzRTyo6IMPzUxjgEOpGZSbyzpV6hg7Os3eMjx38egbz6SmaPTcIlk DJIj2m+fTfvplhqLl10libwWdDPgMHX+gRlUZAcENYMzfaMQK4V/o/a1vGwUAJZr yjdP0Dh5nPM5TEfwRUNBZq8CGfj0pA8F6xml9WLXeV2CB4sI7kYAkZnILy1KOd9r n58IUx7sjoNowMj/C+IyAsSZvjQ2zNtt5j83hG9cWUEDC5fobRgSuznHMIfKCPTJ KIlweTboBpY3eGlGsehlk7DzHcuEeJOOTxS/sU1JROmquAMcVZPm2ClNC5lc0TG2 wpbLKgcybEtdBPthnnoiWqg0t8sXH3Y69sopMWerTTilv7GWaxY= =2fJ0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=_3bbc4419750e065c4e1fa44668ed3352-- From nobody Mon Aug 4 20:14:59 2025 X-Original-To: current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bwnq56Gvpz63T8V for ; Mon, 04 Aug 2025 20:15:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from kib.kiev.ua (kib.kiev.ua [IPv6:2001:470:d5e7:1::1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bwnq52gjrz3HpM for ; Mon, 04 Aug 2025 20:15:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from tom.home (kib@localhost [127.0.0.1] (may be forged)) by kib.kiev.ua (8.18.1/8.18.1) with ESMTP id 574KExSV046225; Mon, 4 Aug 2025 23:15:02 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 kib.kiev.ua 574KExSV046225 Received: (from kostik@localhost) by tom.home (8.18.1/8.18.1/Submit) id 574KExe4046224; Mon, 4 Aug 2025 23:14:59 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) X-Authentication-Warning: tom.home: kostik set sender to kostikbel@gmail.com using -f Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2025 23:14:59 +0300 From: Konstantin Belousov To: Alexander Leidinger Cc: Current Subject: Re: panic: fsync: vnode is not exclusive locked but should be Message-ID: References: <879c4b3b4daa32dd7b975640f18b6103@Leidinger.net> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <879c4b3b4daa32dd7b975640f18b6103@Leidinger.net> X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED,FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD,FREEMAIL_FROM, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=4.0.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.1 (2024-03-26) on tom.home X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bwnq52gjrz3HpM X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US] On Mon, Aug 04, 2025 at 08:50:45PM +0200, Alexander Leidinger wrote: > Hi, > > I have a crash with todays -current: > ---snip--- > [435] VNASSERT failed: locked not true at > /space/system/usr_src/sys/kern/vfs_subr.c:5795 (assert_vop_elocked) > [435] 0xfffff806746f2000: type VREG state VSTATE_CONSTRUCTED op > 0xffffffff835474f8 > [435] usecount 1, writecount 1, refcount 1 seqc users 0 > [435] hold count flags () > [435] flags () > [435] v_object 0xfffff80bd3abf0f8 ref 0 pages 0 cleanbuf 0 dirtybuf 0 > [435] lock type zfs: SHARED (count 1) > [435] vp=0xfffff806746f2000, lowervp=0xfffff806749bd370 > [435] panic: fsync: vnode is not exclusive locked but should be This is nullfs over zfs. Try https://reviews.freebsd.org/D51730. It should fix the issue, but I did not tested. From nobody Tue Aug 5 03:31:59 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bwzWX6T4Gz63v30 for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2025 03:32:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.pri.ee) Received: from mail.ketas.si.pri.ee (d004-fea2-0bff-021e-13e8-8437-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee [IPv6:2001:7d0:8437:13e8:21e:bff:fea2:d004]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bwzWW4b8tz3y6G for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2025 03:32:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.pri.ee) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=ketas.si.pri.ee header.s=ketas-si-pri-ee-20240416002854-4096 header.b=HkWAWKuy; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.pri.ee designates 2001:7d0:8437:13e8:21e:bff:fea2:d004 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.pri.ee; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=ketas.si.pri.ee X-Original-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=ketas.si.pri.ee; s=ketas-si-pri-ee-20240416002854-4096; t=1754364722; bh=xFlwTiOkL0F4rsC5siIFo7v/8pgnPBd/0bzTwgRMuLs=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=HkWAWKuyz/IwNvdZnwNiNowa5Ayawwebu0U4RzLUz4ewECP4FlUryLBiyhUOENVN4 o18dpLKuxSonSiHYbJANhKMzMGUSb3/ysr0JhvI5ZP9Jk92SxScrmZuuHFbjIP/68O Y1wxIm568BeE/uOudSoRE0GLFcS1VUeONUzOTUqGI4DWfBRddoLI4ejJbVweQSTwAF 6x9jUep/m39kVBT6lWTkJ1ljs3/y1Zkd5n5pIXpyasYffD9cnGuuVDHTfBbgy9sbqB jY10P5UsZ4Lh5nK21aY8AM4n5CqxpbqrOhckO7bffqeNd5BiWn9b/KUnLu2h5GK2h1 fJRr7NIeDE6/KVJLpP2Vpv6D2EzQBMIW4qOrZOEkvyCHPZ3IZdBCY2vFZXKXht0j2i GLjfMEMDpEFXYjyiiyXtcz9WCkpMRteLLNZDA+RUpUQHML76pda2mVihcjoOnsAbDG LlqRanBwfYh9rmsaQnuJYYzaPVNRgmuX9DffPOAo9lJv3tftQj1D661qB8lhS3FwV7 qxLvgWfzKhUmW2kEWHqdMqtV7w/uSzY1bgRIfXbYkxLG75HAHb9l3WB24+JD4CS4aD C7t6fZXqdPoTsEJWwtREmZwwONNrp2QlU8IIuiLTBIPfFpme4HBmGx7pF4VipRQhfW NLO8WYqHoGm3h21UFjDH/h10= Received: from [IPv6:::1] (0115-0000-0000-0000-13c8-8437-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee [IPv6:2001:7d0:8437:13c8::115]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail.ketas.si.pri.ee (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 96FF75A7D20 for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2025 06:32:01 +0300 (EEST) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2025 06:31:59 +0300 From: Sulev-Madis Silber To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <967353A4-1A54-46D6-9BB9-5E1A741DB789@ketas.si.pri.ee> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.79 / 15.00]; HFILTER_HOSTNAME_5(3.00)[d004-fea2-0bff-021e-13e8-8437-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.993]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[ketas.si.pri.ee,reject]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[ketas.si.pri.ee:s=ketas-si-pri-ee-20240416002854-4096]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.20)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2001:7d0:8437:1300::/56]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:3249, ipnet:2001:7d0::/32, country:EE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[ketas.si.pri.ee:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bwzWW4b8tz3y6G X-Spamd-Bar: / someone had creative idea to replace csh with sh without porting "useless" = features over=2E partial history search is one example=2E thankfully csh is= still there=2E i get that some people use bash everywhere as interactive s= hell which i don't=2E funnily i can't even find way to configure it in bash= ? i've always used that feature since 4=2E6 and i would be surprised if ans= wer is nobody needs that=2E it was added and enabled for a reason=2E how co= me now we say it's not needed? sh got several interactive use help features= but who decided and what? i expect many fbsd users and dev have used it wa= y before 4=2E6=2E was it like bash all the way or=2E=2E=2E? noone even used= csh? the default? if so, why was the shell csh until now? why was it even = changed? and why was it changed to sh? granted, no other shells but=2E mayb= e we could upgrade sh so you can also interactively actually use it=2E but = for now i just need to change it back p=2Es=2E: i also never got and never get why there's tendency to bully use= rs off of using some software=2E csh is one of them On August 1, 2025 5:22:18 PM GMT+03:00, David Chisnall wrote: =2E=2E=2E >[1] I=E2=80=99ve noticed on fresh installs, the default shell no longer h= as working persistent history, which is a *big* POLA violation, if people w= ant to complain about something=2E From nobody Tue Aug 5 07:08:50 2025 X-Original-To: current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bx4Kj6Vk6z646l2 for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2025 07:09:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Alexander@Leidinger.net) Received: from mailgate.Leidinger.net (bastille.leidinger.net [89.238.82.207]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature ECDSA (prime256v1) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mailgate.leidinger.net", Issuer "E5" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bx4Kj42Gtz3NWM for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2025 07:09:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Alexander@Leidinger.net) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=leidinger.net; s=outgoing-alex; t=1754377751; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=5PTX+HEm17WJaf1QqEiNk2WyvkieFwhZLWJXFgFUG+0=; b=Py6kbEO4xbvyIEaPUPWL4I8dqdqmqKdapJCrmTjk+xjq74VjOjtdU0VKY/ApZlBxGyECl5 OoE5A7+fsk0wyQYat5Sc8z6IPeATm+RUP+mqivyWMJHK2SscuMFwOsBwSKxuE46W+y4cGi tIVLCx3LkJqpVBZNsidDX2DmfiWBsBtmHj+0BKXP2BxJ7v3jVDoYvrkfy0RrBcp6h1rhYY eTkjyv4ZuoB11IOAShqVtSfItYuMHEYv1AzrPzf/YF8Hhmm8EWh2iBMwPxR/Ps3NlsqO2C m+7q6dMBgVRW9pj/7xLjSkKZotpEz7AaBZc5R/s5Bl4wELK+1TYsfMVjaocuiQ== Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2025 09:08:50 +0200 From: Alexander Leidinger To: Konstantin Belousov Cc: Current Subject: Re: panic: fsync: vnode is not exclusive locked but should be In-Reply-To: References: <879c4b3b4daa32dd7b975640f18b6103@Leidinger.net> Message-ID: Organization: No organization, this is a private message. Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=_70b2b79ad56f0ded07a46c735e1b6a98"; micalg=pgp-sha256 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bx4Kj42Gtz3NWM X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34240, ipnet:89.238.64.0/18, country:DE] This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --=_70b2b79ad56f0ded07a46c735e1b6a98 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Am 2025-08-04 22:14, schrieb Konstantin Belousov: > On Mon, Aug 04, 2025 at 08:50:45PM +0200, Alexander Leidinger wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I have a crash with todays -current: >> ---snip--- >> [435] VNASSERT failed: locked not true at >> /space/system/usr_src/sys/kern/vfs_subr.c:5795 (assert_vop_elocked) >> [435] 0xfffff806746f2000: type VREG state VSTATE_CONSTRUCTED op >> 0xffffffff835474f8 >> [435] usecount 1, writecount 1, refcount 1 seqc users 0 >> [435] hold count flags () >> [435] flags () >> [435] v_object 0xfffff80bd3abf0f8 ref 0 pages 0 cleanbuf 0 >> dirtybuf 0 >> [435] lock type zfs: SHARED (count 1) >> [435] vp=0xfffff806746f2000, lowervp=0xfffff806749bd370 >> [435] panic: fsync: vnode is not exclusive locked but should be > > This is nullfs over zfs. Try https://reviews.freebsd.org/D51730. > It should fix the issue, but I did not tested. I confirm, no panic anymore. Bye, Alexander. -- http://www.Leidinger.net Alexander@Leidinger.net: PGP 0x8F31830F9F2772BF http://www.FreeBSD.org netchild@FreeBSD.org : PGP 0x8F31830F9F2772BF --=_70b2b79ad56f0ded07a46c735e1b6a98 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc; size=833 Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEER9UlYXp1PSd08nWXEg2wmwP42IYFAmiRrhEACgkQEg2wmwP4 2IYKTg//bz5PF6i2RqjfOvOe2uChmz7ASyfeBcGeFAG/R7W5aMPm8VKAPd7THMe2 pJmMyf29yRQfe+DnSrO4/PVE+kRQaK25orW1og1KHzrD9/G1RG9o2bLPhrz8T8FN rwyo202nt8lzFNybWHQ7LyIfvUgjIZo2s/I68yTjJibFpkq1eVADjcL0mokUAOAv PIpYbwWMZgt/WW/436UFKqkEomegvH87bQc4s+MUoENVKIm5vyQgOFOZlsZiJv9+ JlSEL39Wgnghdc3/U3Tq8iPRoKu6lD0tdRiqYgrK2g2rtY7nQ9ZdX5zY+/9nntTt lkXR7PZ5b1XCOUHeGJm/CDQelhjf7oakKN1CvsSxoF7cd/lgQc+FAQu8fL/XCbZd VSCXK/e35CHEq43HNdLh4rRAfkeVF02YNr3GGSSyiUFYHECBua87QfS8vmMW3MAo TEbeJFQ2NL0ghpEzSzbiR38MGttsDq3qp3UdzNdRTETn05iT+C+CDTCgx10bNczJ Xlcwf6h3sHt0nmTbYX1tg2SyhMSkYJWKT7phl/l7Le3VoRFVI/CPQoNKr3r9pwGn +g8OZDohIzXktdKoc1Icuvbf1G3pX976RWwun5rt7jXU98gm9hWKqhJVRy2AG951 /QznXIyiFfzSmUIwuwtsG0FpS+btI99X+ys98FvDE8OKwPfrV90= =9MF0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=_70b2b79ad56f0ded07a46c735e1b6a98-- From nobody Tue Aug 5 08:42:42 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bx6Pg5yw7z64CXg for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2025 08:42:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lars.engels@0x20.net) Received: from mout-p-102.mailbox.org (mout-p-102.mailbox.org [80.241.56.152]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bx6Pg3DbDz3WhW for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2025 08:42:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lars.engels@0x20.net) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from smtp2.mailbox.org (smtp2.mailbox.org [10.196.197.2]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mout-p-102.mailbox.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bx6Pb4tW1z9sbY; Tue, 5 Aug 2025 10:42:43 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=0x20.net; s=MBO0001; t=1754383363; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=tHQsf29JbVu3BTojXeQUxnRrRHguLgEfWzeY2DKRVrI=; b=1e4UeeHyTSb3zTGv6Iv9liBQAM+nanGzYj1SyNYP5L9G9YbvsWgprjYPKdwHB6rKEWHR4c S4p7f5DBGZjx46WDJfapek1QT8SkBh+3HvrfiguFh9qBElP4twj/Wl4OUBZd343li/3j8I M7Px4HRLjgsQgPOYrDRb/9kXl8p3uCfacE2oMWfhC6L7+aGAQYAJ9zxDW2Hvjdku6RSlCx 7mR3VaCtaKxMKdPElqNoZBjAxaxOpVApGpyvlgzb/qBcSbhEbn0JAPFkWf/8WBkrbYd2+l UqGRatfrZet8cBLQVFTRu474LPvOaCllXVNQ4sKV6IdlwvnmLtvTBDx32BNITg== Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2025 10:42:42 +0200 (CEST) From: lars.engels@0x20.net To: Sulev-Madis Silber , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Message-ID: <629315018.74986.1754383362772@office.mailbox.org> In-Reply-To: <967353A4-1A54-46D6-9BB9-5E1A741DB789@ketas.si.pri.ee> References: <967353A4-1A54-46D6-9BB9-5E1A741DB789@ketas.si.pri.ee> Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bx6Pg3DbDz3WhW X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:199118, ipnet:80.241.56.0/21, country:DE] > Sulev-Madis Silber hat am 05.08.2025 05:31 CEST geschrieben: > > > someone had creative idea to replace csh with sh without porting "useless" features over. partial history search is one example. Are you looking for "Ctrl + r" to search the history in sh(1), bash(1) and zsh(1)? From nobody Tue Aug 5 08:50:00 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bx6ZD3qhtz64Chb for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2025 08:50:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from zarychtam@plan-b.pwste.edu.pl) Received: from plan-b.pwste.edu.pl (plan-b.pwste.edu.pl [IPv6:2001:678:618::40]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "plan-b.pwste.edu.pl", Issuer "GEANT OV RSA CA 4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bx6ZC0SdZz3Xfb for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2025 08:50:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from zarychtam@plan-b.pwste.edu.pl) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=plan-b.pwste.edu.pl header.s=plan-b-mailer header.b=OKz0njQ5; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of zarychtam@plan-b.pwste.edu.pl designates 2001:678:618::40 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=zarychtam@plan-b.pwste.edu.pl; 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charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.58 / 15.00]; DWL_DNSWL_MED(-2.00)[pwste.edu.pl:dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; RCVD_DKIM_ARC_DNSWL_MED(-0.50)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[plan-b.pwste.edu.pl,quarantine]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.20)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[plan-b.pwste.edu.pl:s=plan-b-mailer]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[2001:678:618::40:from]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.08)[-0.081]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[plan-b.pwste.edu.pl:+]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:206006, ipnet:2001:678:618::/48, country:PL]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bx6ZC0SdZz3Xfb X-Spamd-Bar: ----- W dniu 5.08.2025 o 10:42, lars.engels@0x20.net pisze: >> Sulev-Madis Silber hat am 05.08.2025 05:31 CEST geschrieben: >> >> >> someone had creative idea to replace csh with sh without porting "useless" features over. partial history search is one example. > Are you looking for "Ctrl + r" to search the history in sh(1), bash(1) and zsh(1)? > Let me guess, it's probably: bindkey -k up history-search-backward bindkey -k down history-search-forward It just works, not need to press any key binding, begin typing in the command line and use up and down. AFAIK not available in sh, bash, and probably in zsh(?) yet. -- Marek Zarychta From nobody Tue Aug 5 09:00:50 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bx6pY1M0Jz64D4M for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2025 09:00:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bx6pY0Pryz3Zjc; Tue, 05 Aug 2025 09:00:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754384453; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=zN707X7lJW9eeMWYr8xBuqWW6fp8IsPLCyZ60OUXqf8=; b=XJ1X8TtdYNurWO7/30q/wmkzMBGkP+IBG1g+FUcRYt55uy5AkcEOhjbGVDzllU8qJAWxfw WFV7cPioCQgCGbRsMilFDnnstHDL2uBis5A/DZDu8G3R2YejCdlp1JKgxQo9O123X3ftae zeM76VW/A5mXw4jxb/qDh9ev+Y6vhpImJRf89gHXqC6hFB/VrcyUT2L4nXDaTLLKtaVa9B yR7ud7lfQGnfel/IKvuwmE+w421bglBWfEozxXQCiBRsKrSePF7/Ayr51W9/D142FctutQ JI1NMkn8Ck9LqT+mbow59DNN0w3wl3RO/hLEtcCVsz2MDDGD+Jy0yBonOSWcMQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754384453; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=zN707X7lJW9eeMWYr8xBuqWW6fp8IsPLCyZ60OUXqf8=; b=igATlQ6EUx0qXEjRQPSwT8gEw/F3/jmUYXYktHdw7yfnpMOB+Wc24cRURozmxmEdySSgrD X33TNZEVuvvY/MfRSr/NKeCILXEMjn8hUDaDeg28E6z6jefHeEuwTxnFaG836eYupa5Auf Hmq/kJlat2uSWwodXQC1uPlcftrsNeOOOlzr3f1IB8LIgf2Cu7Opt01QYYL7PbFH8HwUoZ f3dBAFctw9lQBcyMJV4S7Ucs0auETps0QztijFbpihb9USN1vJBe6BHPtXKPX2aEJwUYqT SbGN0Oem2KVeyLwFbEYD9pQcGk9zU0Xal6wvBqBMOzx2z6YZTnpJR07CI0+Pkw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1754384453; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=PAWd5n2VKZPnsG3pgBm4C6JcTF8Xus5IkcsMowVmCfqjHxrgv6+L6InatPDDSwODD21nTd K/50AdmOow9ecBJOdFadeoxZXA5MDc/PFW+O7oB6EkS/5QuJthRYSaCI22xHKCZQcE3Lyp kYaUZxrkoLCCGlx352weMY8zNefDED6vg3PgBZp8Vk94iMuKItT/yZ8pZRoON5Esmm2E2F MobwtAbzwvCw+nP7H2+3WdjaWgTzfgo2HhOZ19uw6Ie8sLbvFQcjepYQR5822E/afFpsZL dxkfsCDuvCRYqV0KkOofAdwIKc0HC8ttGaHIUs3NeGpTOl5LFAA/7nek8IWq/g== Received: from ltc.des.dev (unknown [IPv6:2a01:e0a:c54:bed0:922e:16ff:fef1:acef]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: des) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4bx6pX5qljzr0b; Tue, 05 Aug 2025 09:00:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) Received: by ltc.des.dev (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 5DC8312159; Tue, 05 Aug 2025 11:00:50 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Sulev-Madis Silber Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature In-Reply-To: <967353A4-1A54-46D6-9BB9-5E1A741DB789@ketas.si.pri.ee> (Sulev-Madis Silber's message of "Tue, 05 Aug 2025 06:31:59 +0300") References: <967353A4-1A54-46D6-9BB9-5E1A741DB789@ketas.si.pri.ee> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2025 11:00:50 +0200 Message-ID: <864ium6t31.fsf@ltc.des.dev> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sulev-Madis Silber writes: > someone had creative idea to replace csh with sh without porting > "useless" features over. partial history search is one > example. Who said partial history search is useless? > thankfully csh is still there. i get that some people use > bash everywhere as interactive shell which i don't. sh is not bash > funnily i can't even find way to configure it in bash? Configure what in bash? afaik bash hash incremental history search turned on by default. > i've always used that feature since 4.6 and i would be surprised if > answer is nobody needs that. Some people like csh and that's fine, it's still available and we have no intention of removing it. > it was added and enabled for a reason. It was added 40+ years ago at a time when sh was the Bourne shell, which was much more limited. That was before the Almquist shell (which our sh is descended from), before the Korn shell, before POSIX standardized a bunch of Almquist and Korn features, and before people lile jilles@ and pstef@ added a bunch of creature comforts to our sh. There was a time in the 1980s and 1990s when some people preferred csh for scripting because it was genuinely superior in some respects, but improvements in sh and the lack of a formal or even informal standard for csh eventually put an end to that. > how come now we say it's not needed? We never said it's not needed, just that it doesn't have to be the default. > sh got several interactive use help features but who decided > and what? The people who did the work decided what to work on, that's the entire point of a volunteer project. > i expect many fbsd users and dev have used it way before 4.6. was it > like bash all the way or...? noone even used csh? Most people didn't. > the default? if so, why was the shell csh until now? See above. > why was it even changed? Because a majority of the people who decide these things (i.e. FreeBSD developers) prefer sh. > and why was it changed to sh? It's the POSIX shell, the one shell we are absolutely required to support, the one shell developers need to learn inside out because its language is used everywhere in scripts and Makefiles, so most people learn sh and never bother to learn a second shell; or if they do, it's one that behaves more like sh than like csh, such as bash or zsh. Therefore, it makes more sense for the default shell to be sh than csh. > granted, no other shells but. maybe we could upgrade sh so you can > also interactively actually use it. Many of us are fine using sh interactively. But for most people it genuinely makes no difference, because they rarely if ever use a root shell. They use sudo or doas. > but for now i just need to change it back That's done in seconds with chsh or vipw. But also, you shouldn't log in as root, so the change shouldn't have much impact. > p.s.: i also never got and never get why there's tendency to bully > users off of using some software. csh is one of them Who is bullying you? DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@FreeBSD.org From nobody Tue Aug 5 11:16:13 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bx9qj3qhXz64L9L for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2025 11:17:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.pri.ee) Received: from mail.ketas.si.pri.ee (d004-fea2-0bff-021e-13e8-8437-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee [IPv6:2001:7d0:8437:13e8:21e:bff:fea2:d004]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bx9qh0hfmz3nDK for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2025 11:17:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.pri.ee) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=ketas.si.pri.ee header.s=ketas-si-pri-ee-20240416002854-4096 header.b=M82IcRTU; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.pri.ee designates 2001:7d0:8437:13e8:21e:bff:fea2:d004 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.pri.ee; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=ketas.si.pri.ee X-Original-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=ketas.si.pri.ee; s=ketas-si-pri-ee-20240416002854-4096; t=1754392607; bh=LcXYIbqKt0Oa2f0r3y1vX08f8HDIN423K9tf5OiB2pc=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=M82IcRTUs8nK8BmZxD8by8kHvT1h92HVS+0uZHxSMqdQRmL0Jlhis5wVCOawQpbjt 4CyyTR6S8hrMT1t/wiL3WmVDBjEM+xgk6JMXRAyIa+KOUyL/IDh8wzK1hBG24AsEee oazHvnISOuofF9T+vGDRZqJJECmi/2wJsui/X6JrXIqUC/lAZ0E/Y/zANGySUpk6zE BF+TpfBGdO6euGgdSSiXl6whvbuHz6C3Dlf20tLlRkI8wI1RKF9d0Vs3wwOJjsMA05 NRvtGDXYnhQqETHzSUYlPaKIZL1OKeyvg4jWvfzgggg3ij6McKWyZDO2/Sgd7jHIbW bb80fpfqQXLfOTu/g+uAF4YwIixGIS1HrccYfYiJ47QrtlOskC80Kig8D7ZbOquUDM ut/X1CDkjmY+KEVs0lmRVK3nCiKpgt0Y91GtkFo/g2QL29XXte1eS3Sst2mhZthYjm BBbEoY35mWAb9RcFe+0F18Uj3w0ipQjN9nlo7ATBKqy3BSuCh+RtOvrk43SkDyhaWw MW0ODjKxYNqlgZJpnI7YOY8RK5rc9WPViR944XfPpx6FcGZEHdLtpmcYYQ0GG3Qx1g NLWeMHk1THc613L3P1m9XG5lNDXXEkP6/NO3Wlld21FA30p9x8atbXv5UQwAzvR4LO 6e9IQLBMBltFxPRMj1cTUFs0= Received: from [IPv6:::1] (0115-0000-0000-0000-13c8-8437-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee [IPv6:2001:7d0:8437:13c8::115]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail.ketas.si.pri.ee (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0D1B55AB938 for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2025 14:16:46 +0300 (EEST) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2025 14:16:13 +0300 From: Sulev-Madis Silber To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: <864ium6t31.fsf@ltc.des.dev> References: <967353A4-1A54-46D6-9BB9-5E1A741DB789@ketas.si.pri.ee> <864ium6t31.fsf@ltc.des.dev> Message-ID: List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.80 / 15.00]; HFILTER_HOSTNAME_5(3.00)[d004-fea2-0bff-021e-13e8-8437-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.998]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[ketas.si.pri.ee,reject]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[ketas.si.pri.ee:s=ketas-si-pri-ee-20240416002854-4096]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.20)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2001:7d0:8437:1300::/56]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:3249, ipnet:2001:7d0::/32, country:EE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[ketas.si.pri.ee:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bx9qh0hfmz3nDK X-Spamd-Bar: / yeah, considerably different approach in my case=2E before fbsd 4=2E6 i did= linux=2E used shell that was there=2E bash iirc=2E then came fbsd=2E with = csh=2E interactive was csh=2E with that search feature=2E scripts were sh= =2E why this, unsure=2E i didn't change my interactive shell to sh nor bash= =2E also i have this feeling that i installed that when i was quite young= =2E i'm 42 at 9 aug=2E i'm unsure what one needs to learn in shell=2E and t= wo shells are difficult? i don't know=2E i had to learn entire new world at= fbsd and never had issues with two shells=2E maybe others did? and you are= n't supposed to have root shell when using root? i'm unsure why command wra= pper, that a sudo or doas is, is more secure option when used with either r= oot password or user password? they all give one access to do everything=2E= minus securelevel or chflags or other things, like restrictive sysctls=2E = no idea why i do all those things differently=2E i guess noone really told = me what to do=2E considering i still have even my very first install around= , where i once had to restore some of /bin from backup and so on due popula= r cursed rm command where if you put space there and miss it you end up wit= h / as individual argument on rm command line and then you go like removing= /bin/ls? ffuuuuu^c^c^c=2E so yeah, csh was default=2E it worked, never had= idea that i shouldn't be using csh=2E i even had to put tcsh onto my termu= x on android phone since i couldn't find way to teach bash, or at least the= ir bash the tricks i needed from interactive shell=2E and bullying, ever ha= d that problem? csh is a bad shell but noone tells why? vi is a editor of c= hoice but noone tells why=2E and nano, pico, those are but noone tells why= =2E ee, etc=2E and mc is bad file manager=2E and god forbid should i use mc= edit to edit files=2E as it's like blasphemy or something=2E perl is a bad = language, etc=2E many of those guys never tell why=2E nor do they explain w= hy is it bad that i run them=2E i never understood the peer pressure to con= vert people to different program religions=2E basically thing is bad if the= y don't use it=2E rarely actual security considerations come into play=2E i= f you say so, noone uses csh, then maybe it's the reason why it's feafures = haven't been added to sh=2E or maybe i miss them=2E anyway they aren't enab= led either by shell or default config=2E but somebody had to make csh defau= lt back then and then add that cshrc i based mine on=2E and then noone used= it anymore? it's a big suprise=2E well sadly i can't put any features into= sh any time soon=2E funnily, after the default was switched, only then i r= eally learned why=2E that i'm like single person who runs csh=2E i guess sh= default isn't much of a pola violation either because it won't surprise yo= u if you never knew other one=2E apparently majority won or so? thankfully = one could always change it back=2E at least i slowly start to get why=2E i = was completely unaware of all this=2E not a thing to talk about often or so= ? i wonder what else has been changed in fbsd where some people adapt quiet= ly=2E sometimes they object=2E you know, like national politics style=2E pe= ople often discuss politics at free time, saying they don't know how decis= ions get made and whey should affect them=2E often cursing at people "up th= ere" having a disconnect with people=2E and they make decisions seemingly o= n their own, without warning, without explaining=2E kind of same here i gue= ss=2E there's disconnect=2E maybe there's always a disconnect somewhere=2E = how do i know eh=2E i have observed all those objections=2E some were taken= back=2E some people went away, adapted or took them out locally=2E reasons= were sometimes good, like no dev power=2E sometimes it was as if discussio= n was recorded in file in bottom of unused locked file cabinet in old offic= e with do not enter sign=2E original was much funnier and it's on archives = here somewhere=2E but idea was that noone looks there=2E and suddenly it po= ps out=2E this was all about pkgbase actually=2E why is a good idea but has= issues=2E just like pkg replaced old system just recently=2E or long time = ago, depends on how you feel time=2E i wonder how many people object on pkg= base when they find it coming default and they find it less than ideal=2E k= ind of same feedback you get from people who see backhoe driving next yard = and suddently turns out they are going to build a highrise there with all p= lans already discussed and set years ago=2E how to avoid such things in vol= unteer run project like fbsd, which also have user base, i don't know=2E th= at's how all (f)bsd forks happened too, i guess=2E but how do i know? or i = do? i also have like used it all for those, ~23 years? On August 5, 2025 12:00:50 PM GMT+03:00, "Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav" wrote: >Sulev-Madis Silber >writes: >> someone had creative idea to replace csh with sh without porting >> "useless" features over=2E partial history search is one >> example=2E > >Who said partial history search is useless? > >> thankfully csh is still there=2E i get that some people use >> bash everywhere as interactive shell which i don't=2E > >sh is not bash > >> funnily i can't even find way to configure it in bash? > >Configure what in bash? afaik bash hash incremental history search >turned on by default=2E > >> i've always used that feature since 4=2E6 and i would be surprised if >> answer is nobody needs that=2E > >Some people like csh and that's fine, it's still available and we have >no intention of removing it=2E > >> it was added and enabled for a reason=2E > >It was added 40+ years ago at a time when sh was the Bourne shell, which >was much more limited=2E That was before the Almquist shell (which our s= h >is descended from), before the Korn shell, before POSIX standardized a >bunch of Almquist and Korn features, and before people lile jilles@ and >pstef@ added a bunch of creature comforts to our sh=2E There was a time >in the 1980s and 1990s when some people preferred csh for scripting >because it was genuinely superior in some respects, but improvements in >sh and the lack of a formal or even informal standard for csh eventually >put an end to that=2E > >> how come now we say it's not needed? > >We never said it's not needed, just that it doesn't have to be the >default=2E > >> sh got several interactive use help features but who decided >> and what? > >The people who did the work decided what to work on, that's the entire >point of a volunteer project=2E > >> i expect many fbsd users and dev have used it way before 4=2E6=2E was i= t >> like bash all the way or=2E=2E=2E? noone even used csh? > >Most people didn't=2E > >> the default? if so, why was the shell csh until now? > >See above=2E > >> why was it even changed? > >Because a majority of the people who decide these things (i=2Ee=2E FreeBS= D >developers) prefer sh=2E > >> and why was it changed to sh? > >It's the POSIX shell, the one shell we are absolutely required to >support, the one shell developers need to learn inside out because its >language is used everywhere in scripts and Makefiles, so most people >learn sh and never bother to learn a second shell; or if they do, it's >one that behaves more like sh than like csh, such as bash or zsh=2E >Therefore, it makes more sense for the default shell to be sh than csh=2E > >> granted, no other shells but=2E maybe we could upgrade sh so you can >> also interactively actually use it=2E > >Many of us are fine using sh interactively=2E But for most people it >genuinely makes no difference, because they rarely if ever use a root >shell=2E They use sudo or doas=2E > >> but for now i just need to change it back > >That's done in seconds with chsh or vipw=2E But also, you shouldn't log >in as root, so the change shouldn't have much impact=2E > >> p=2Es=2E: i also never got and never get why there's tendency to bully >> users off of using some software=2E csh is one of them > >Who is bullying you? > >DES From nobody Tue Aug 5 12:08:52 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bxBzT576Dz64Nk9 for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2025 12:08:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bxBzT4GvWz3vx5; Tue, 05 Aug 2025 12:08:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754395733; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=EECbfVWqotSMcxwiIyZmh/xGrq6xiKRb0JcdDDP2NSM=; b=mLoXhxaUb34nf9xGcnKmyu8Ghx5NJj/LWTgRMipLvpResqWS18ONx1z9A4QJK5qzscb93i kWsODA9kdP/EA+3+7eW1L+CoALq4KppcteJLoOPEa3OeSdJ4p1GVDii/yoKduii4G2Te02 Y67FSalPN7Kve2Zh6E7eq5qUQV8iKIGcipmswHXU63yKBgMe3xyOv+CF4W3ArfEjbBjTIk 2g5mb662QwsU8y6r614Z97sIkqHfBcbnAQ9Vq6SD+wjNCqrQ4I8afVjhGCF7CAg9K70uHB c1/wzALmhz6yk7U/ZhgPgRdqG+jlkleCPr8GX1JcXZey7JU8vaFNMQBnlBmPqQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754395733; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=EECbfVWqotSMcxwiIyZmh/xGrq6xiKRb0JcdDDP2NSM=; b=O/C8OL590JCsTRjucgnH3A0IzRE6JYsY9lBQ0+3f4ABvLo6Voi8nw5/LsPQq09DVMRKVct grvr5n1a2Z+v+xrtVPeseXzxN71RCoSVHRg/2LXuDHvFStm4DAAkKz9SoW7C8c1euhXL4B TA1tbgr0AQOzihC2YyXBGI26XWTcPonq4jX3lr37AmjOndbkWlcNBFM6xjIAQHbyXZEZAY WyZHGmWEHin0H5UXnMv+o3OaLZdpBfcXQd3AmtjvtOBbFx6L7B65fJiFcRay9m3ha96Y/A PBI6sIGh6bWHQKTG34NN3M6nezwGYUQk9EVI007PdxU4NzkcojCxBljN+g37Mw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1754395733; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=M7sQn6pMsRpq5FM75ntpezWSrlsHaHtJw0E5xa4mc095nOdz2Tn3XGtA7mLHsFtPZq2Hsp +AGHQZ3PcYBwgX1vrBkdoP60RIKmEMWfoyYSAvbdKKTh0bhHpSaAGkc3SBB9zSb4qhENcc PzKHwNa+4iijqa0dYFqfCl8NNMJZqFIJvVnZeXU6b9vkcW58WeUPn55wF4YePbG2/Tnu0P uJqxXgcBPL7rC9DVTrTZ//rpJGyD8dUHlHy8QDkrcoG/adwez7KzZWiyz7Zq1ydh8ZUtze qpLNcPK7X6kXnWF2MZnQz3tyw0EXV5Uf713/MKAJY2BJyAxCkH+Kt57gTCLxtw== Received: from ltc.des.dev (88-177-82-251.subs.proxad.net [88.177.82.251]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: des) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4bxBzT2y6vzv1F; Tue, 05 Aug 2025 12:08:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) Received: by ltc.des.dev (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 2EA11129BC; Tue, 05 Aug 2025 14:08:52 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Sulev-Madis Silber Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature In-Reply-To: (Sulev-Madis Silber's message of "Tue, 05 Aug 2025 14:16:13 +0300") References: <967353A4-1A54-46D6-9BB9-5E1A741DB789@ketas.si.pri.ee> <864ium6t31.fsf@ltc.des.dev> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2025 14:08:52 +0200 Message-ID: <86v7n255t7.fsf@ltc.des.dev> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sulev-Madis Silber writes: > pkg replaced old system just recently pkg replaced the old system 12 years ago. > i wonder how many people object on pkgbase when they find it coming > default and they find it less than ideal. kind of same feedback you > get from people who see backhoe driving next yard and suddently turns > out they are going to build a highrise there with all plans already > discussed and set years ago. We've been working on pkgbase for close to ten years. All the work has been done in public. There's been a wiki page since 2016. There have been conference talks (many of them livestreamed and / or later posted on YouTube), public code reviews, discussions on public mailing lists, progress updates in the quarterly reports, etc. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@FreeBSD.org From nobody Tue Aug 5 12:09:54 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bxC0w4NZLz64NkY for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2025 12:10:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from trashcan@ellael.org) Received: from mx1.enfer-du-nord.net (mx1.enfer-du-nord.net [78.47.122.106]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bxC0v5f6Qz3xFL for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2025 12:10:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from trashcan@ellael.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=ellael.org header.s=dkim header.b=Z4ISXihh; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of trashcan@ellael.org designates 78.47.122.106 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=trashcan@ellael.org; dmarc=pass (policy=quarantine) header.from=ellael.org Received: from smtpclient.apple (p200300fb4f14400148e01a9524da6b4e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [IPv6:2003:fb:4f14:4001:48e0:1a95:24da:6b4e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-ECDSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.enfer-du-nord.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4bxC0r6bZfzDn6 for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2025 14:10:04 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ellael.org; s=dkim; t=1754395805; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding; bh=nDc4x8PfgIngp0ysoi/RhUajXZs8zSrY4lUoO14LyXY=; b=Z4ISXihh+tb0QbHmceUZBdKb7w9rBee8bzVHEJDxE2DtnhNeG3TI84aBwDU4pXoZ3KyTYL gElKUleTiV+B9qSwySsA/Ng8QxalPhcK+jr1/zQbxa8qugC8OplDZCGFZElnwQgp+BtDEd XHqteFJfwECpUlrijP9sYebDyigDQH7TYr9MX4ZKtyNsu10F1JXhkzLmzw9/WGWQoN3z5S amR/+YCvZcGN0kfY/e/Yu+xpuih14tITIYuwtao6W0hakRCO/5uABaGO28/YbzOXHYcchL 16v1uejIQptKoHCy1T7OSnA7EaN7FVCAS9P2AjWRJ85zLt96hisVHsYRGD6NfQ== From: Michael Grimm Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.700.81\)) Subject: Hetzner's server console "dead" after upgrade from 14.3-STABLE to 15-CURRENT Message-Id: Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2025 14:09:54 +0200 To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.700.81) X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.80 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.998]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[ellael.org,quarantine]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.20)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:78.47.122.106]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[ellael.org:s=dkim]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[ellael.org:+]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:24940, ipnet:78.46.0.0/15, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; APPLE_MAILER_COMMON(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[78.47.122.106:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bxC0v5f6Qz3xFL X-Spamd-Bar: --- Hi I upgraded one of my servers from 14.3-STABLE (arm64) to 15-CURRENT = (arm64), recently. Ever since I cannot use Hetzner's server console to login that specific = cloud instance any longer. I am able to connect to that instance and I can watch it boot and = presenting the login prompt on ttyv1. But I am not able to login, = because the console is "dead" w.r.t. keystrokes. After reading UPDATING and RELNOTES I cannot see a possible cause for = that changed behaviour. At least it is not obvious to me. I have to admit that I am completely lost here, and I do not even know = where to look for solving this issue (ttyv0, keyboard, =E2=80=A6) Questions: #) Is anyone using Hetzner's server console on 15-CURRENT (arm64) = successfully? #) What has changed between 14.3-STABLE and 15-CURRENT I have overseen? #) Hints for investigating/debugging this issue? Thanks in advance and regards, Michael From nobody Tue Aug 5 12:23:01 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bxCJ75X3Mz64Pb9 for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2025 12:23:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from trashcan@ellael.org) Received: from mx1.enfer-du-nord.net (mx1.enfer-du-nord.net [78.47.122.106]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bxCJ71pCgz40dp for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2025 12:23:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from trashcan@ellael.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=ellael.org header.s=dkim header.b=uhFWd6zn; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of trashcan@ellael.org designates 78.47.122.106 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=trashcan@ellael.org; dmarc=pass (policy=quarantine) header.from=ellael.org Received: from smtpclient.apple (p200300fb4f14400148e01a9524da6b4e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [IPv6:2003:fb:4f14:4001:48e0:1a95:24da:6b4e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-ECDSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.enfer-du-nord.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4bxCJ06MYPzDq8 for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2025 14:23:12 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ellael.org; s=dkim; t=1754396593; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=3c7QP6OPX15xQKVKsMEqLLRZbBLl3hs1S3XdgFFMrgY=; b=uhFWd6znbT3n/GIYBCR2PLEKVKil6LZPAwQPzBWjNks3po5bR3KbcNZgXLpuF+Bu7G/dWr Ky7ZXt9ARhiGy2jbqGnlx26/DTu/fCrl1nSWk2Ne9x5uez+cpQUvxSUQ49nHP1sGDWEI6F 51KecVDx376dvZxZWQTfopO4lnrRt/8ymKPlzyJG4BvQU5bs/WDAHEusQmRMndb8491Q8l Sl/PARQhnMluVRN7a3NqFXp5GkvhPA8oEGBSw0M9LQAIU4mbtj8HpVumQwKph8+/tj153f V3iD0TzPzleWWz6XZ7Fhz/tVc3eCUBvHL+3WvtPXP6S5Gf0Fgh+7gauKXrVhBw== From: Michael Grimm Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.700.81\)) Subject: [SOLVED] Hetzner's server console "dead" after upgrade from 14.3-STABLE to 15-CURRENT Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2025 14:23:01 +0200 References: To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <566BE033-7A5F-4D71-9CBD-948548876F60@ellael.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.700.81) X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.80 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.998]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[ellael.org,quarantine]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[ellael.org:s=dkim]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.20)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:78.47.122.106:c]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[ellael.org:+]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:24940, ipnet:78.46.0.0/15, country:DE]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; APPLE_MAILER_COMMON(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[78.47.122.106:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bxCJ71pCgz40dp X-Spamd-Bar: --- Michael Grimm wrote: > After reading UPDATING and RELNOTES I cannot see a possible cause for = that changed behaviour. At least it is not obvious to me. 20250730: The usbhid(4) USB HID driver is now enabled by default, and will = be used in preference to other USB HID drivers like ukbd(4), = ums(4), and uhid(4). Work on a FIDO/U2F driver and moused(8) is in = progress. The default is being switched now so that we can find and fix = any additional issues prior to FreeBSD 15.0. To revert to the previous USB HID driver behavior, set the = loader tunable hw.usb.usbhid.enable=3D0. I did try "sysctl hw.usb.usbhid.enable=3D0" but forgot that I need to = reboot thus better put it into loader.conf. Sorry for the hazzle, the console is working like before. But I am curious why this new driver and Hetzner's server console don't = like each other. Regards, Michael From nobody Tue Aug 5 14:01:40 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bxFTq2ncTz63GLD for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2025 14:01:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Received: from smtpo73.interia.pl (smtpo73.interia.pl [217.74.67.73]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bxFTq07Gsz3D6h for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2025 14:01:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2025 16:01:40 +0200 From: vermaden Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature To: Sulev-Madis Silber , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" X-Mailer: interia.pl/pf09 In-Reply-To: <967353A4-1A54-46D6-9BB9-5E1A741DB789@ketas.si.pri.ee> References: <967353A4-1A54-46D6-9BB9-5E1A741DB789@ketas.si.pri.ee> X-Originating-IP: 45.148.42.1 Message-Id: List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=interia.pl; s=biztos; t=1754402502; bh=cl/bsFx2b9BhJkX42EZp1GF/FYyti8lbXjrs1ZXZjaQ=; h=Date:From:Subject:To:Message-Id:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=jc9tEOyR8obrAoDd2/XY46aTKZz3Tzj3TEnEE0DNsvMXXbWMkr+IFvwbC9miiBkTI op5RFAqo6w0SkVn680+ZdxR6k7Spc+ugzwPdp6Yoa/Pk1a5pTJm7ysnY8e035R8Knu Z9EEyEKr3JB3+mAU4Q1g/h14rHVqUr32zBCNsOUg= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bxFTq07Gsz3D6h X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16138, ipnet:217.74.64.0/22, country:PL] The /bin/sh is good shell for scripts but terrible interactive shell. It do= es not even support basic stuff such as !! or !$ features. % /bin/sh f25 vermaden ~ $ ls /home vermaden f25 vermaden ~ $ cd !$ cd: !$: No such file or directory % /bin/sh f25 vermaden ~ $ ls /home vermaden f25 vermaden ~ $ doas !! doas: !!: command not found I would love to see ZSH imported into base as its MIT licensed ... but easi= er said then done. Currently I use ZSH from packages and with this config it even has most/all= fish(1) features: https://vermaden.wordpress.com/2021/09/19/ghost-in-the-shell-part-7-zsh-set= up/ The [T]CSH shell(s) at least support !! or !$ features - but terrible for s= cripting ... Regards, vermaden Temat: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Data: 2025-08-05 5:33 Nadawca: "Sulev-Madis Silber" <freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.p= ri.ee> Adresat: freebsd-current@freebsd.org;=20 >=20 >> someone had creative idea to replace csh with sh without porting "useless" features over. partial history search is one example. thankfully csh is still there. i get that some people use bash everywhere as interactive shell which i don't. funnily i can't even find way to configure it in bash? i've always used that feature since 4.6 and i would be surprised if answer is nobody needs that. it was added and enabled for a reason. how come now we say it's not needed? sh got several interactive use help features but who decided and what? i expect many fbsd users and dev have used it way before 4.6. was it like bash all the way or...? noone even used csh? the default? if so, why was the shell csh until now? why was it even changed? and why was it changed to sh? granted, no other shells but. maybe we could upgrade sh so you can also interactively actually use it. but for now i just need to change it back >=20 >=20 > p.s.: i also never got and never get why there's tendency to bully users off of using some software. csh is one of them >=20 >=20 >=20 > On August 1, 2025 5:22:18 PM GMT+03:00, David Chisnall wrote: > ... >>[1] I=E2=80=99ve noticed on fresh installs, the default shell no longer h= as working persistent history, which is a *big* POLA violation, if people want to complain about something. >=20 >=20 >=20 From nobody Tue Aug 5 16:25:45 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bxJgw6M2Kz63QVq for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2025 16:25:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from omta003.cacentral1.a.cloudfilter.net (omta001.cacentral1.a.cloudfilter.net [3.97.99.32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bxJgv6b2Qz3VyD for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2025 16:25:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of cy.schubert@cschubert.com designates 3.97.99.32 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=cy.schubert@cschubert.com; dmarc=permerror reason="p tag has invalid value: quarantine rua=mailto:p[ostmaster@cschubert.com" header.from=cschubert.com (policy=permerror) Received: from shw-obgw-4002a.ext.cloudfilter.net ([10.228.9.250]) by cmsmtp with ESMTPS id jEgnuVdbf9JM2jKTzuVJCf; Tue, 05 Aug 2025 16:25:47 +0000 Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.66.136.217]) by cmsmtp with ESMTPSA id jKTxun7aDl5eGjKTyutDgp; Tue, 05 Aug 2025 16:25:47 +0000 X-Auth-User: cschuber X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.4 cv=EO6l0EZC c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=6892308b a=h7br+8Ma+Xn9xscxy5znUg==:117 a=h7br+8Ma+Xn9xscxy5znUg==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=2OwXVqhp2XgA:10 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=EkcXrb_YAAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=3-BciU1GIfA2-A0rfPwA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=LK5xJRSDVpKd5WXXoEvA:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy.cwsent.com [10.1.1.91]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 854A636C; Tue, 05 Aug 2025 09:25:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by slippy.cwsent.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7EAF1C6; Tue, 05 Aug 2025 09:25:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.9.0 11/07/2018 with nmh-1.8+dev Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: Rick Macklem cc: FreeBSD CURRENT Subject: Re: RFC: MIT kerberos and the gssd in main In-reply-to: References: Comments: In-reply-to Rick Macklem message dated "Sat, 02 Aug 2025 16:17:11 -0700." List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2025 09:25:45 -0700 Message-Id: <20250805162545.7EAF1C6@slippy.cwsent.com> X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4xfLyq81GvAI6PyTVdba4HAOFZq0sptsgesRmsJgOizR6fyv4Ekgf6xbGTnzzY27HpcScheq0y5QqkMTwbGdFUZenwdayqZZ8QHnmVcN2LUw+x7GgsLBG6 sXAmzus57gE6mbtcdTls1eEN+GGd2RF6zErIN7XPid8eckZMOuvnNgmPZaf+UsWCZxvVdwvU6EFmQ+vRb5FP51vEY3XAgqzGA2NdgJXaEhY4GTKrAcY8SPVc 3i/wsHJgbeIKi8Xn6YNinw== X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.30 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.999]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_EXCELLENT(-0.40)[3.97.99.32:from]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:3.97.99.32/31]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[3.97.99.32:from]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DMARC_BAD_POLICY(0.00)[cschubert.com : p tag has invalid value: quarantine rua=mailto:p[ostmaster@cschubert.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16509, ipnet:3.96.0.0/15, country:US]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bxJgv6b2Qz3VyD X-Spamd-Bar: --- In message , Rick Macklem writes: > Hi, > > I've lost track of the discussions (or even where they are > taking place, so I am going to post here and hope the > discussion stays here. > > My personal preference (feel free to discuss this) is that, > when MK_MITKRB5 == "yes" for the buildworld/installworld.. > - The .h files under /usr/include are exactly the same ones that > "pkg install krb5" generates and under the exact same names. > (No Heimdal .h files under /usr/include and no renaming or > putting them in a different subdir.) > - The libraries under /usr/lib are exactly the same ones that > "pkg install krb5" generates and under the exact same names. D51661 fixes this. It removes libgssapi.so, keeping libgssapi_krb5.so as we see on Linux systems with MIT KRB5 installed and as port installs them. > I think this will minimize confusion. Yes, anything that links to > libgssapi will need to be fixed (Makefile plus ???) since there > is no such library for MIT, but at least people will see what needs > to be fixed. (There are a lot of places where code knows where > MIT puts .h files and which MIT kerberos library names are used.) This is the reason for D51661. > > However (and this is the more important part for me), I'd like > a resolution w.r.t.what file names and where they go soon, so > I can get a patch for gssd.c needed to make it work for MIT > straightened out. > > I do now have code that works when linked to the libraries > in /usr/local/lib, using the MIT kerberos .h files. > > Thanks for any comments, rick > ps: Unless someone complains about doing so, I intend to > tweak /usr/src/usr.sbin/Makefile so that it only builds the > gssd when both MK_GSSAPI and MK_KERBEROS_SUPPORT > are not "no". This allows me to get rid of the cruft in gssd.c > that makes it build for the MK_KERBEROS_SUPPORT == "no" > case, since it won't do anything useful without kerberos anyhow. > All of the above are addressed/fixed by D51661. -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: https://FreeBSD.org NTP: Web: https://nwtime.org e**(i*pi)+1=0 From nobody Wed Aug 6 01:13:36 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bxXP62n0Dz63yVn for ; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 01:13:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from grahamperrin@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wr1-x42a.google.com (mail-wr1-x42a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bxXP53yxCz3Qc5 for ; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 01:13:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from grahamperrin@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=lAAaOzEr; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of grahamperrin@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::42a as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=grahamperrin@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com Received: by mail-wr1-x42a.google.com with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-3b8de6f7556so1653934f8f.1 for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2025 18:13:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1754442818; x=1755047618; darn=freebsd.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:references:subject:to:from :user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=HHuWAwEyXBAi46uo6QtwV2kV3mViTVxs1FolLP4mQMU=; b=lAAaOzErgt7lA/DKIK8vVWgLZPFmaaAf0RQpaQjgljV69ayYju5fXWqvKfJgvssTcM +xITvmGtO1BA+61F6Mq3uHNhYOZkvKDtkzytnNZwcIR5HLO2PU4Rco02UFTKCoa1ZlRw F+DrwygEWlVEYRjtXEDAP/L59OFUYgUV3h1vFWV81jK1xqewmIbVZbS+DuXpC/3HoGxT 5VzQHttrWEI/VhEsbEDkFCDsG2Tr1PQ+nQdj4axsaWGD1PQ6fjsxeCu3QwV2N0vjdFYy o/8U9Lat1zbAHCp/YBuuwdzADhYXkpE6lDxr5ZcadHTj6cnqnjLaINuQP6DGj+t8f9Ms 21hQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1754442818; x=1755047618; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:references:subject:to:from :user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id:x-gm-message-state:from:to :cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=HHuWAwEyXBAi46uo6QtwV2kV3mViTVxs1FolLP4mQMU=; b=MrXQDySRI+WXDIwP9DQSvvfiLmqbBBObBqRtUEz2zAD4mppnEscNFziN/MLk110+Fl 3Y9nvE4gmN0EpbDrKQAzyzk26P9hoLh3GtX83+EEx6+Xp+zn0HVg0HaaTRqLp9IjBshj L8r6nebpVGpu42EY1TYS8++x9S03LeMtDGw7KhgdLbpRmcE8drOCRqBEt0gsy8eDBLxs RfsLtbNzZpEcgtHnogEmtQQQYN9FwrqOLyZoCNL/5QAS97DEzH78Lq+jqjwWkCETqGyM D6scAfFARcyfZN9rXWsePvLzGoqOIFCgqO8u8c6wNG0kGRfIdbkJmIWA/1BWKQt3Ur0c eolQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyBhx7DlsnyRsmgCosiaFFGlFI4d/GQVH9jagAgDaE5XBAxujAE zvNlOXDfs8PREFEKVSHqfucIPzUOAgLvevKcYkE28sId9KbZELCGN9aQHTHWog== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncv0QcHU8JHIhgpiWMQpw20GMEmVkKZ+q7jf0qN6AubW9O3tXIFxr2HDw0fHrl9 G5FAuiD7bDmZ74XiTUin5FjMQkM3+lrkChsYJsv5YqgcLHbAbpx7h7aQn5/LRRMirTvtUw3lR69 kfggLTcjYoGYePl5s5M7lwZfDQHw6bWEbs31QGe2Hk56uWRT8kdHq97iReQfbG1/zzpw6WhFMiE txxIBaNf1Mo35tdKT+TDZ1A9NVRSYcSllsLamoilfy/3oZfRR146kc6W2XDlwMdnZcFBFaeRpyw OQQwovGeAYzpFIkLPrScJGu4OsOtj31+KnenTbsdnMmVn9v4INExNMP+XT8hD5N98wZgEArv708 wv5XdX4TJ+iP0cYeZi6bbbDTrnRREejeuT1z7BR1MlN7yPRi6kv5kShS22E4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFheitSAYS9EgQJNy1JIIZ8MhqkcLdCYYQD4jnuci5bxST5VKQ8s2QgS/h+3nN/GANR606U+A== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6000:2303:b0:3a6:d92d:9f7c with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-3b8f41a80camr693180f8f.9.1754442817936; Tue, 05 Aug 2025 18:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.4] (host-89-241-205-78.as13285.net. [89.241.205.78]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 5b1f17b1804b1-458b55b4b4bsm90017835e9.1.2025.08.05.18.13.36 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 05 Aug 2025 18:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2025 02:13:36 +0100 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird From: grahamperrin@gmail.com To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature References: <967353A4-1A54-46D6-9BB9-5E1A741DB789@ketas.si.pri.ee> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20230601]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[grahamperrin]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::42a:from]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_NO_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bxXP53yxCz3Qc5 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Back on topic (pkgbase) If all or part of the OS is missing, or lacks integrity: * thanks largely pkgbase, it's not difficult to reinstall all or part of the OS – and this is off topic from freebsd-current. 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[89.241.205.78]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 5b1f17b1804b1-458bb04c612sm151467105e9.0.2025.08.05.18.41.39 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 05 Aug 2025 18:41:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <311e4b5b-86ea-44f0-9418-d319b97634f0@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2025 02:41:38 +0100 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature To: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org, postmaster@freebsd.org References: <8690FF2F-B66D-423E-815C-9D64700A7D7D@yahoo.com> Content-Language: en-GB From: Graham Perrin Autocrypt: addr=grahamperrin@gmail.com; keydata= xsFNBGKYt7ABEAClu83dJ3ZKfVgPOk9YKRv0Z+dl2b88+k9R4vwAmElgguYdKE7yhnQNhhWM v9vi6AFrBMc2oJdVHJ2OrXfwpELBFIgiSMEWNsC4e+Z3HtSajcl+pFZsP7ciiSoycj/w3wIV kAZoVGbhyIbNG7fbCEJ8q81TbfsGypV3bRmbZVvGNecBguYiooBtz2Qht1p3itXMkIA6P9pS YDl+6QddZLyUUAjAnFv2QDoYSHLnaDUWw4oONZsB0SKVu8jMIBh4uJZoYEOvdvc9jQQdOpA2 CAgA6ulfm42Ikr9lKBUUCtjqiWAhJ7iXOTyHAIdR4Mf8alCE6tdTq6dHdIt+GktTY7oYNyL2 3aD3C7I5waU0SFXvJcOMG10QLfwYQMOQoYQ9XJ0U5A28WYiDcylDdUWT7SappP1e1ZMeJWWO y14mxxNzHaJSI4rK8P/p5tp3Q7SSC4k5gMh9zKba3K2ApCWNbVLGvXsJeQkZZNvu70tE81ey AHI5iZcB6D7WaHysBUmsKaEpbcmm1ZThTnGL0SHEl5to5Jab5Fg6O+Cnly5sVz5lX/v8Aosx kKNei7SCVqXOVtteQeGxWbXWbhPgbMyc0Gi3DuxBI/yvJ43k/rJysQlLGLWfJx/UXprwLluC PDK9EvKEB+fD1Z349uzp1sKr3ihpySbyKI8fpudftnAz4EsoCwARAQABzSZHcmFoYW0gUGVy cmluIDxncmFoYW1wZXJyaW5AZ21haWwuY29tPsLBlAQTAQoAPhYhBFk/5bLDBwftvJcvCrdn SG9KGNQLBQJoRALAAhsDBQkPEg5ABQsJCAcDBRUKCQgLBRYDAgEAAh4FAheAAAoJELdnSG9K GNQL8YkP/2V1z6XQDyG1QlKAu8TuE8zDWy9QQKjC/G44hlu5zk+2kWSNk4zeExs9ZXOBmVhF EW1d+1J8wDiYIeKYj/rqMoP+gb8o0Au0lSRitvTdLxkZBFGMn0CEzlDOzv+wmiy0ggAV/s+Y EbiHk12fI0LoTy5/ywdmG/uGS7M6p3XOrM0YO1qmLXy1cUyYDsYIpq5/rT0QzpGowsJLoEA3 zz1vfKVY+RTorsL4W8ljXLmcs4c3b3HZG9Xmgtt+Ni/eb9CjzM7kCXOcSMnVzvfscCowPAwB 0ZHlNxNV0MTa61xgvOCk4Zf278ArRgbTm4oOz9Z4ciPMnVue+9P/VdxIxgUuYkAryM0+agGz L9bd8ljn+efNtgZ5dlDLrNnTE+vWnMVlMXgl7BNnhwHg7UYFLrC2xklsICub0qpnNheTGeqo 0N4UongJTQJ6H6LEpgd+KMkCncAHghED/G0/BUdO90VEOoqnIKwKa+F9NqVMvHWc8D58mwCP FghsmxK9FM9pnsjLmG7u+s51Y7++GSRnU4NkI4tHiVk7hcAcvZuc0QbUDwVMTurDUgIqRo6W 80j1tFjEspkrwtMoeVFEkDHktjoc3AoEymXIncZfqIqi3nVseyDVyNByvkV0mutX9hXqac0/ RXMuyK9KniAUZ9+gsWs4rPs/DOdsw4K8/RnjduBrfCYQzsFNBGKYt7ABEADRb1tZuh7DPYET 0wK6fe7owbYgM+RfKhmcrGgR2HI9M2q6+0WKF/ITnggWdIW2Ecc4z2boLz/cwvPGCS7/YxZM 61KklGCwuS7q1s04XnHDWHuFxfXQPzAdVmNO3bYoMZbJjHXs6sB2u5ksiwPwaMAWWaGkviSj c5pwvHCiTmX5vH5CBj/Vi+5ESyX38vK4JM5S/m4ouI/6M9biyFgimV+v3vVyCxJCT1gI9g4o GIh1qq5S433b1fihn4yHPf8XOKyBpA/QcwLONViBqJL5nnOxpsh344rNxn2R7CcRzzicOV+e 2IbMem4lwNWQlZKoRotKXZi9LqN5mynSBYqAUdoZum0QinWT9F22B0Qex5PH1zAt9i2W91Vd kcPB3LwkRXj07ycRtsSzpgPA6fLc6AsoWFslHl8kVOO5eJIA4xhjlPa+W8lguQHZ0iX+5uAv 2eAgXR2swADuHPuENNFStmsgAMl8OOOgtq75yA5TpyIzxMuXV9Nmp0VfIaUM/IdLdmxhc1pC c320l5fYMHVLFAReWEbSj2QH8YzWfpXHIegutWWYEbH9SiDXgS9KoKmCJV/Qa+x6/b8y3pOZ vnIbCDaynC2Yr50s8gRa9kb54JE8Z+p8r16U3SEsK3PtUi0RF0e51danCVHrrE6/Hat2XUO/ 6nnYgVgFOrLao6Gh/VMs8wARAQABwsF8BBgBCgAmFiEEWT/lssMHB+28ly8Kt2dIb0oY1AsF AmhEAsACGwwFCQ8SDkAACgkQt2dIb0oY1AvQxw//REWYFK2m4yS/QP5kzfhkWcNqDI/akGT5 /LXmdmbc1s78+mOMXnA4vBY/+X1QatgxWUECkPDOiIwXJMxoBuyY8e7spLRXeyhtfh5aYaJc MO5bARX0c49v+KfZ80u9tG2rkKQvAt/ySo7OXsbDADFFRhlc8RLbb8e7bSctGbYZk9CYa0ya dW5+n3znDNJ6yW1skx9wTH+Y8VlSazRLk3XgXscNqBA2h56v3WS/R5dI++7AQxZxSQacQvfj 9eahq7ATdB4zMQ9MBHEwOvGD3DLlc55FYSDZvNX+mhnK7S0t1Nt2EtGUOmXb5ysMFGnbsce0 woKQ0sLPF1HWDAAf7tBCF8mpPIzU/ViAkupsJ6NYCD0tLFD8pvl0NYU2TjvyWh6ie3e5B/b3 8Daiyme+M92ivfoRQOFKmkPfeT14AI6OW1k7qFbmoIwMWWQdFWAl1CP9hNdF9gRN4rFB0Jy1 90BajZW2zOdVfqdurJZegCzAowZalLm4JEK2MklpPzipibnJqhLOmvJy587pF52KDdM/4rLy BBREIm7uRivnO5k/BY5qS+H/aqv97LC0PVaTsLXbDmTxTnJplUpdlYT9NGidM+x/ioS0iztO Cht7cT8V8jvvKZYvNpst8iqxuIaoV9V7aZ0wAQpkgDGXHmSzwtz6U8xNf/4e4sLn9KPlldSd kvo= In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.999]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20230601]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::334:from]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[grahamperrin]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org,freebsd-stable@freebsd.org,freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org,freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bxY1R2l7lz3SxY X-Spamd-Bar: --- On 04/08/2025 19:47, vermaden wrote: > … Not related to PKGBASE lowercase, please. pkgbase > … safer … https://vermaden.wordpress.com/2021/02/23/upgrade-freebsd-with-zfs-boot-environments/ … Off-topic from the four lists: it's known that following instructions, whilst taking the linked approach, can break the OS. Breakage is not particularly safe. The four lists are not the places for a debate. With regard to rule-breaking, could have been taken as a reminder that no posting should be made to more than 2 mailing lists, and only to 2 when a clear and obvious need to post to both lists exists. From nobody Wed Aug 6 07:42:45 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bxj213Qwtz63MBr for ; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 07:42:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from omta003.cacentral1.a.cloudfilter.net (omta001.cacentral1.a.cloudfilter.net [3.97.99.32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bxj2001znz44tL for ; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 07:42:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of cy.schubert@cschubert.com designates 3.97.99.32 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=cy.schubert@cschubert.com; dmarc=permerror reason="p tag has invalid value: quarantine rua=mailto:p[ostmaster@cschubert.com" header.from=cschubert.com (policy=permerror) Received: from shw-obgw-4001a.ext.cloudfilter.net ([10.228.9.142]) by cmsmtp with ESMTPS id jYTMuWSjg9JM2jYnPuljL5; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 07:42:47 +0000 Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.66.136.217]) by cmsmtp with ESMTPSA id jYnOumIZSWX70jYnPuIitr; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 07:42:47 +0000 X-Auth-User: cschuber X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.4 cv=d71WygjE c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=68930777 a=h7br+8Ma+Xn9xscxy5znUg==:117 a=h7br+8Ma+Xn9xscxy5znUg==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=2OwXVqhp2XgA:10 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=EkcXrb_YAAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=kM8uIitCbpmPPmeYRtsA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=LK5xJRSDVpKd5WXXoEvA:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy.cwsent.com [10.1.1.91]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC2B41ED for ; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 00:42:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by slippy.cwsent.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 787B912E; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 00:42:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.9.0 11/07/2018 with nmh-1.8+dev Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Heads Up: MIT KRB5 1.22 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2025 00:42:45 -0700 Message-Id: <20250806074245.787B912E@slippy.cwsent.com> X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4xfPwYfVTsz31mEWR43Pl+oRibzNyJikwYpFo2Vc6YBU4kwvChUaRLxaq1vRarVNp+ZlNTcszLD1hdXDRWdUSdr7PsaSze4EyuTu4SSXCNng/X62EtFGiT kluRBAjlK6koz/2O7th0QRDq6VhPue9aAE4UQjCP2MSyEmPrkkpqmtLTF6ozl7Ox+fldy4GAbxwqhp3EZRDbFPsdP5Huwbr/toI= X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.27 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.998]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.973]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_EXCELLENT(-0.40)[3.97.99.32:from]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:3.97.99.32/31]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[3.97.99.32:from]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16509, ipnet:3.96.0.0/15, country:US]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DMARC_BAD_POLICY(0.00)[cschubert.com : p tag has invalid value: quarantine rua=mailto:p[ostmaster@cschubert.com]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bxj2001znz44tL X-Spamd-Bar: --- Heads up. MIT KRB5 1.22 has been released. I will commit it over the next couple of weeks. Because MIT releases a new MIT KRB5 approximately once every year, give or take six months, the idea is to get it into the tree sooner than later. This should give us plenty of time without much churn at the expense of a little more churn now as we iron things out now. I will be running it here for a while before pushing it. The port has already been committed, for those who are impatient. -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: https://FreeBSD.org NTP: Web: https://nwtime.org e**(i*pi)+1=0 From nobody Wed Aug 6 09:17:44 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bxl7Z5Wb1z63SDr; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 09:17:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bxl7Z4lSlz3GpS; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 09:17:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754471866; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=xagBlBKGb9HpW3pDNWDTpd3oli3LCVwwZ+Uym2v/BX0=; b=pG8qzS1OH8+VoKzRmPn47oVLMvqqk+6kG7hGFhBSVnyKS9VYy3wXJUR7JVw/tZY9K1P3pr HJTrL1eONm2S6NQDN0ruYr4o12zj6xaLTpPMe3yS11J94Y6ofwh7NurHbBfZB+I47tOe+W BvonzynwvdfqWamuBq0F1X3qrG0+DM/VPEpWg5ju/ANAGjl/JJEGEA9PjXgAJX3/syOlxJ CoNoBa/clyiqxVaP7SfgJwWdU5EoBNZts0F9a8wZmoeOHmbNzbma5pgivQ94VV/pfBE9gq s6xKdLbZ/tev5WBjBHBU/nxVazBytk9ggzkc1+1URuD0Tn+9jVNk9lu/oZ3wow== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754471866; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=xagBlBKGb9HpW3pDNWDTpd3oli3LCVwwZ+Uym2v/BX0=; b=hdwihNOoPlqhfSTOqCxs1zvsMrkuyLnTSxix3/dHQKlwOnP+TBytr6ORi5+6bPz1YXXu1P wD9p4WHQtYcPh4wePXQDdF29zq8kqJXfx35G5n39+WBY6Ocy8jg1qCexqLcKOFUkaQmphJ ARq6fhsyysI9D/J9rPtFL9uq9OsJqKmDuhS2xEsDtoqlVc+5Lp5TXxfDKm4OYrs4UfYcyr OzapYJSjL8WQx/CuQtbivTQuudb/ZjrhVRItDpxspJWrQUXjYPP8TJv2u4VMH3JB96fq5Y D2k89slUtyQYANrs0ws/b8N1pXLoNpjrDhL+BPnmrBsbX9Kv21Y6yiNvJ5ruoA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1754471866; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=F1/ejrllzACEjdPe/4SQGSu6w6Nc8PN2I7Mfu8mc3eFSZyolCAUq23P02tCOGwtD0U+i7x ubbvsswKZ3wH5/mUK6Ab07pGD8Bf8qEHv6n7NyYqyTirb9waupQNDuGv1tCWsfw7UazwCH EavbpGMPvtWq8/3og5Ttx10X2KvwsvOWYLmjEptX5f6VMd5Ig/8Ws9G+OJ+AqTQUV4V/3k YO66anvi3XO7V2Okogy9SmlcGcCH4XNHSwgXXEP23nMMXyDLCHS/Xd+ff0mAhG5dmcaS2t 5avbFntwt5CC6Sc3IXkMd+XbMWg56XMQGKpl8QWSOuCUbG35h10tO00YwYXqSw== Received: from ltc.des.dev (unknown [IPv6:2a01:e0a:c54:bed0:922e:16ff:fef1:acef]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: des) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4bxl7Z3Gthz8Cn; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 09:17:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) Received: by ltc.des.dev (Postfix, from userid 1001) id ACCAE12DA5; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 11:17:44 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Graham Perrin Cc: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org, postmaster@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature In-Reply-To: <311e4b5b-86ea-44f0-9418-d319b97634f0@gmail.com> (Graham Perrin's message of "Wed, 6 Aug 2025 02:41:38 +0100") References: <8690FF2F-B66D-423E-815C-9D64700A7D7D@yahoo.com> <311e4b5b-86ea-44f0-9418-d319b97634f0@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2025 11:17:44 +0200 Message-ID: <86qzxo6c7b.fsf@ltc.des.dev> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Graham Perrin writes: > The four lists are not the places for a debate. You have no authority here. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@FreeBSD.org From nobody Wed Aug 6 09:30:54 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bxlR004jKz63SwJ; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 09:31:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Received: from smtpo69.interia.pl (smtpo69.interia.pl [217.74.67.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bxlQz3xmJz3KYR; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 09:31:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2025 11:30:54 +0200 From: vermaden Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature To: Graham Perrin , "freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org" Cc: "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , "postmaster@freebsd.org" X-Mailer: interia.pl/pf09 In-Reply-To: <311e4b5b-86ea-44f0-9418-d319b97634f0@gmail.com> References: <8690FF2F-B66D-423E-815C-9D64700A7D7D@yahoo.com> <311e4b5b-86ea-44f0-9418-d319b97634f0@gmail.com> X-Originating-IP: 45.148.42.1 Message-Id: List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=interia.pl; s=biztos; t=1754472660; bh=Q0f7xfybcMuM1ceJNKaXO/hHHrXNcNJaQBl8U9W56fA=; h=Date:From:Subject:To:Message-Id:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Ll49to5DXlzjF/2DvIU8WHHDL8NV3Qj0lGIv/g2tGInst66a7GmCI7R+dwLf/lRUX y61fEwdX+pVnVJzex6nq5uuMvUiE4EqKtm3PJKHXCX9zFM9NfMCjQBFqsWUBZ6BEv+ 56Wk/Jn1pp6eirl8P5+yrZwPfFESRBgpqSQYezUw= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bxlQz3xmJz3KYR X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16138, ipnet:217.74.64.0/22, country:PL] > lowercase, please. I always used PKGBASE when I refer to this technology and I will continue t= o do so. Limited raw email allows only lowercase, Title Case or UPPERCASE. If UPPERC= ASE is problematic for you then maybe you should switch to platforms that a= llow more sophisticated ways of text formating with bold/italic/underline f= eatures. > Off-topic from the four lists: it's known > that following instructions, whilst taking > the linked approach, can break the OS. > Breakage is not particularly safe. Instructions work as desired - I upgraded dozens of systems this way over a= decade and not a single one break. ZFS Boot Environments were literally designed to work that way - to create = upgrade within new not running BE: - https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E23824_01/html/E24456/betools-6.html#betools-3 ... and even IF they would break anything - the only thing they would break= would be separately created ZFS Boot Environment and NOT the host system i= tselt. Read more about ZFS Boot Environments - how they work - what they pr= ovide - and stop spreading that misinformation if you do not understand how= they work. =20 > With regard to rule-breaking,=20 Citing The Matrix movie: "Some of them can be bent. Others can be broken." The FreeBSD Base System is one of THE core FreeBSD values and features. It = is really important to make sure that PKGBASE - as much as I like the conce= pt - will not break it. For this important concern of mine that PKGBASE mus= t find some way to preserve Base System independence from regular third par= ty packages I addressed all Mailing Lists that are related to this problem = - and they are: - freebsd-stable - freebsd-current - freebsd-pkg - freebsd-pkgbase As that seemed logical and reasonable. Regards, vermaden Temat: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Data: 2025-08-06 3:41 Nadawca: "Graham Perrin" <grahamperrin@gmail.com> Adresat: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org;=20 DW: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org; freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org; freebsd-current@fr= eebsd.org; postmaster@freebsd.org;=20 >=20 > > On 04/08/2025 19:47, vermaden wrote: >> =E2=80=A6 Not related to PKGBASE >=20 > lowercase, please. >=20 > pkgbase >=20 >> =E2=80=A6 safer =E2=80=A6 https://vermaden.wordpress.com/2021/02/23/upgrade-freebsd-with-zfs-boot-env= ironments/ =E2=80=A6 >=20 >=20 > Off-topic from the four lists: it's known that following instructions, > whilst taking the linked approach, can break the OS. Breakage is not=20 > particularly safe. >=20 > The four lists are not the places for a debate. >=20 > With regard to rule-breaking,=20 > =20 > could have been taken as a reminder that no posting should be made to=20 > more than 2 mailing lists, and only to 2 when a clear and obvious need > to post to both lists exists. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Aug 6 15:17:10 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bxv6f13Wsz63rQs for ; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 15:17:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rick.macklem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ed1-x52a.google.com (mail-ed1-x52a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bxv6d1TCGz44jj for ; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 15:17:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rick.macklem@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=flw3jANx; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of rick.macklem@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::52a as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=rick.macklem@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com Received: by mail-ed1-x52a.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-61592ff5ebbso11863992a12.3 for ; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 08:17:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1754493442; x=1755098242; darn=freebsd.org; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject :date:message-id:reply-to; bh=LOqdQ8XEEN7KPz0EcnQetFBZyS57cOtcnNYscWLBPBc=; b=flw3jANxCoszEgdV9gL2JgbsHk6isgzSH7RGTQ6A3/0RHothVWzmqSg8s1l6VKcSbH wD5DJ16FF2kpJ37ZomwuM1B8ASu2wqJrzg6TpC3NRCc+9L60sapJZAyUAEWt8w59AKmn siSeS5DR9c1EDAqujM+Sit5eEluTmCzGwvTZOrthkpfCNoF1Fgyu5V0otJSey2nj9Qq3 4sxnFDXRWdQ9USYRsluZGso3sUKMpjvoJjkJkpwdosktg5G5o5Sj4jvUiC4e5vgOejet U3p0PXVV7+FEPKa04l+uhIyJHmHci6vdeVdkFGkrJnMHS738qEdXO4238XvYzLOrHAyf SuDg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1754493442; x=1755098242; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:mime-version:x-gm-message-state :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=LOqdQ8XEEN7KPz0EcnQetFBZyS57cOtcnNYscWLBPBc=; b=RUqHBiMwIA1LjQ2fXPkADl2Nzqmf4RjOglZN9zJ1pPxOhB0EvrbU6p3l+JL2dpwEYE pl9oXpPe59kTJkS8la448RcHEOc9+u9v7BKaHUpo6l93SroGqEGwJeW0TWREWngWHAG+ FG//Zp/t/6KLAB4Af64MsKa07EiGJI5NGAnRHYecb0EfJH7iFjh/MEryuHSo66/GEA1D bqL6O71uBggyeH4zw7RzxmTF7scty4Zxbev98bc0bEiTEccUUb2rTRe8qRhy3M1MAyMx HlUr4lut2vC5rd7+wpnGeN1TwqpFDJLVw5v6rG1yt0oL1PV2KtWpP7V1yHyfmQQamyaN OrDg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yzrbxa/RzdddYOHC91CGefcpV1lOCy3Ypn3y4nYXPoYXzUV7pKL 0iSiROEyksx2S7KnloKSA6w1qdCWWhyWTjVCmiOzAndhw/wkCvyDdEWTP1vXwoPqM1gYxwiCX7l AoPQBSFVPWCjJZIuQyWWr8uUyaWbbpMcz9lc= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncsrJfpqufAxtWceJKP7qJ1I3YPNo7bRZFUK2XSjRHx04AR0mQB2tU4fGbxwDkG JH5TSYpzbbK/QYJVl5hiz3+Xhamke8HIeuq1RgK79v8T8FIVhRWxSlFNJqmVV0L8LoLHYa4r0W4 I6qQPP38Gn6tBF4iOF1m9dsCUo6g+cHG/PZHrh2vIOM261gHBxTwZKocB+KIDS4j01w1IMmVqpk DQdzTUr06v9H3Okbo77UBOMDRGYC+waLGB99hs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFqhkyvOcPb9JarbmSlFXKcKntx47OJDCVahFJnvOyQZ+X9p4HcAkPbinSJcon8NiaRF4RpsfuWt2flNJezrmE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:42d4:b0:615:d028:9423 with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-61796099935mr3080452a12.7.1754493441487; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 08:17:21 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Rick Macklem Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2025 08:17:10 -0700 X-Gm-Features: Ac12FXzdI-Ik-yCilEUXyscu4GXlbEq8QhtT2I0PDClZWvzogFeCKlLOJ2Vb8to Message-ID: Subject: RFC: Does ZFS block cloning do this? To: FreeBSD CURRENT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36:c]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20230601]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROMTLD(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::52a:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bxv6d1TCGz44jj X-Spamd-Bar: -- Hi, NFSv4.2 has a CLONE operation. It is described as doing: The CLONE operation is used to clone file content from a source file specified by the SAVED_FH value into a destination file specified by CURRENT_FH without actually copying the data, e.g., by using a copy-on-write mechanism. (It takes arguments for 2 files, with byte offsets and a length.) The offsets must be aligned to a value returned by the NFSv4.2 server. 12.2.1. Attribute 77: clone_blksize The clone_blksize attribute indicates the granularity of a CLONE operation. Does ZFS block cloning do this? I am asking now, because although it might be too late, if the answer is "yes", I'd like to get VOP calls into 15.0 for it. (Hopefully with the VOP calls in place, the rest could go in sometime later, when I find the time to do it.) Thanks in advance for any comments, rick From nobody Wed Aug 6 15:32:42 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bxvSV1t7bz63sHD for ; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 15:32:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asomers@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ed1-f47.google.com (mail-ed1-f47.google.com [209.85.208.47]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bxvST2mFBz48lw for ; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 15:32:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asomers@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of asomers@gmail.com designates 209.85.208.47 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=asomers@gmail.com; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed), No valid DKIM" header.from=freebsd.org (policy=none) Received: by mail-ed1-f47.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-61530559887so11359a12.1 for ; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 08:32:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1754494376; x=1755099176; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=VeuANaeINjJdsxnB3g/0mYyuU/GtnIhEcYo6QkDyfFo=; b=j8iP7t0700HlcS0I9Myz8YOi7BjlkoRxkNf+aUmfNsIG+3ma1T/LvI+khV+r/FzYWV o2kBuY6zTAYdkBwvIizuBu22bsW9iOAFveHqAD1mnDs37Q2IikTKM5YL96lKJzLcSuwp ahwJ3ZwNMWg4z9gYVmc2tW7xrhrZSsUxMLO8PlPIwSCElHiYkShvD3ZhePZLW1z8zEus GWSyhcCwKicuCjuB26YhiDOLnfVnYuSU1O/R8mVyT9ncAArRm0v3SvRE40V/yEiV6fT5 rNWMSfXwGKzrQsaHdMBNvskoyfJ7khYs4syegXDcMC47SCBRX62/0jP+kY0NpZfy1Bmu JXpQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxwZDmIeZqwpp7JVXZ/0mXHp94SJ4XwQ562Xgqn+V4J2Lx+AP5q gOSJiz9My3RkAM0c+b6bZXEjaSNCtWy8ICP4JOZQpJ3MH0FuqAAsiyF13oEgQS5h+GbOcM309JV RXNIX7TMACxPuKn1NW4nTTYG4Kzwco2niz+ln X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncvmqSoJXgsvwGgh1EQxPYEmlN7RraFGSNIFyZpvLUGhy9yKwCK/qSAkZY4KZQg KMYUMWUmBV/2f7/M0k9Gto6TDMwkGuFJpBlcaygBsy1Kd0DWaCehrFo773wwlRqkd9ckpfDSeGv F0OxjizkY7j0HboYAsxOJ8KMAZTxecN2At4mmMA6VxXDK92Y+SDdZZg11q7aePmft8qxfOufDho vtzz64= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IG1zYRprwDyNQ4lvGA5ZWQGEY2fbCK9pPmxs9oNyFzKx3fd4ZmKmErn3sOcD8sCYc6dwtwmggIBmR0RZ7L+b/c= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:27cc:b0:614:ff14:9faf with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-61796191ce5mr2934617a12.19.1754494375202; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 08:32:55 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Alan Somers Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2025 09:32:42 -0600 X-Gm-Features: Ac12FXwXppDjYzcNBmqACBefigIpjJmvRXNYPE9NTRNHE2X-6u-prfgyPnw-pqY Message-ID: Subject: Re: RFC: Does ZFS block cloning do this? To: Rick Macklem Cc: FreeBSD CURRENT Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fecb57063bb40d66" X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.10 / 15.00]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[0.996]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[asomers@freebsd.org,asomers@gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[freebsd.org : SPF not aligned (relaxed), No valid DKIM,none]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[asomers@freebsd.org,asomers@gmail.com]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[asomers]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[209.85.208.47:from]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[209.85.208.47:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bxvST2mFBz48lw X-Spamd-Bar: / --000000000000fecb57063bb40d66 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Aug 6, 2025 at 9:18=E2=80=AFAM Rick Macklem wrote: > Hi, > > NFSv4.2 has a CLONE operation. It is described as doing: > The CLONE operation is used to clone file content from a source file > specified by the SAVED_FH value into a destination file specified by > CURRENT_FH without actually copying the data, e.g., by using a > copy-on-write mechanism. > (It takes arguments for 2 files, with byte offsets and a length.) > The offsets must be aligned to a value returned by the NFSv4.2 server. > 12.2.1. Attribute 77: clone_blksize > > The clone_blksize attribute indicates the granularity of a CLONE > operation. > > Does ZFS block cloning do this? > > I am asking now, because although it might be too late, > if the answer is "yes", I'd like to get VOP calls into 15.0 > for it. (Hopefully with the VOP calls in place, the rest could > go in sometime later, when I find the time to do it.) > > Thanks in advance for any comments, rick Yes, it does that right now, if the feature@block_cloning pool attribute is enabled. It works with VOP_COPY_FILE_RANGE. Does NFS really need a new VOP? --000000000000fecb57063bb40d66 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Aug 6, 2025 at 9:18=E2=80=AFAM Rick M= acklem <rick.macklem@gmail.com= > wrote:
= Hi,

NFSv4.2 has a CLONE operation. It is described as doing:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The CLONE operation is used to clone file content from a sourc= e file
=C2=A0 =C2=A0specified by the SAVED_FH value into a destination file specif= ied by
=C2=A0 =C2=A0CURRENT_FH without actually copying the data, e.g., by using a=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0copy-on-write mechanism.
(It takes arguments for 2 files, with byte offsets and a length.)
The offsets must be aligned to a value returned by the NFSv4.2 server.
12.2.1.=C2=A0 Attribute 77: clone_blksize

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The clone_blksize attribute indicates the granularity of a CLO= NE
=C2=A0 =C2=A0operation.

Does ZFS block cloning do this?

I am asking now, because although it might be too late,
if the answer is "yes", I'd like to get VOP calls into 15.0 for it. (Hopefully with the VOP calls in place, the rest could
go in sometime later, when I find the time to do it.)

Thanks in advance for any comments, rick

Ye= s, it does that right now, if the feature@block_cloning pool attribute is e= nabled.=C2=A0 It works with=C2=A0VOP_COPY_FILE_RANGE.=C2=A0 Does NFS really= need a new VOP?
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To: Alan Somers Cc: FreeBSD CURRENT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bxvxP21fSz3DPS X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] On Wed, Aug 6, 2025 at 8:32=E2=80=AFAM Alan Somers wr= ote: > > On Wed, Aug 6, 2025 at 9:18=E2=80=AFAM Rick Macklem wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> NFSv4.2 has a CLONE operation. It is described as doing: >> The CLONE operation is used to clone file content from a source file >> specified by the SAVED_FH value into a destination file specified by >> CURRENT_FH without actually copying the data, e.g., by using a >> copy-on-write mechanism. >> (It takes arguments for 2 files, with byte offsets and a length.) >> The offsets must be aligned to a value returned by the NFSv4.2 server. >> 12.2.1. Attribute 77: clone_blksize >> >> The clone_blksize attribute indicates the granularity of a CLONE >> operation. >> >> Does ZFS block cloning do this? >> >> I am asking now, because although it might be too late, >> if the answer is "yes", I'd like to get VOP calls into 15.0 >> for it. (Hopefully with the VOP calls in place, the rest could >> go in sometime later, when I find the time to do it.) >> >> Thanks in advance for any comments, rick > > > Yes, it does that right now, if the feature@block_cloning pool attribute = is enabled. It works with VOP_COPY_FILE_RANGE. Does NFS really need a new= VOP? Either a new VOP or maybe a new flag argument for VOP_COPY_FILE_RANGE(). Linux defined a flag argument for their copy_file_range(), but they have ne= ver defined any flags. Of course, that doesn't mean there cannot be a "kernel internal" flag. So maybe adding a new VOP can be avoided. That would be nice, given the tim= ing of the 15.0 release and other churn going on. The difference for NFSv4.2 is that CLONE cannot return with partial complet= ion. (It assumes that a CLONE of any size will complete quickly enough for an RP= C. Although there is no fixed limit, most assume an RPC reply should happen in 1-2sec at most. For COPY, the server can return with only part of the copy done.) It also includes alignment restrictions for the byte offsets. There is also the alignment restriction on CLONE. There doesn't seem to be an alignment restriction on zfs_clone_range(), but maybe it is buried insid= e it? I think adding yet another pathconf name to get the alignment requirement a= nd whether or not the file system supports it would work without any VOP chang= e. rick From nobody Wed Aug 6 15:55:26 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bxvyR5dQgz63t5l for ; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 15:55:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bxvyR4B1xz3FSw; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 15:55:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754495727; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=gJcktqiq8gW3zffx9heO6SSK+hI/ZcUccufE4luur+I=; b=XX23rogwdU4iToHbAsNP4sbn5YoKEKNtYa1IomjIYcqwcVg/WkToqe/V7dNsuqvggWKMut Z2PtkmWD9yypDC3jGrjtIQ4NDRZiLBul8uN/N2ir5cwNuFdEMnrCb4UEH6QKzL92aXtLzt X77Wb1Jf+wKvHxdBMcW4Ki2MqzdlahmOHpRN2jFbq8b7UkNAq/s/xyERHZJuF9BzUeMQeu NmYOMHo4Rn+/N7k3I7nPX615yp/9g2OoFNRP9D10bSjHvt3mjZQGGXNviLsdrTnyBWTXDF M4uBo4eYj2GZRWs36vo4dXkhZUzLKWt2krdNcdNHj9GiRslPgesWYPx2XcVDiQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754495727; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=gJcktqiq8gW3zffx9heO6SSK+hI/ZcUccufE4luur+I=; b=TXiREw2Nyx6Njq8L1DcjQIPn7hRkzpbSU2vKvcnwpT5aR6xbNaE2snL6ITNQQeyhFuE1o1 M/DM5HR1ybpUPwifjRt6j3N8eDTBRihy6idv8H8t9zLoS33B8h3n6SYzH7gvQ4XgWnijTp JwnVsfXNPvmaaReGDnjjIzOd6EPJc72o4tUARduWLks7oE4JRHG2Qh9x7C6dfVEfhgFUuS U2oPac6U9/b9RJZGqdBwCT/ETCnEcXQsmujakQf6ykyCz/7toBL/JBvjMGBtRyCA6ui+0d dJM+FcPyvM0yO54nxv+dItps77zB/xBhdy2Bu4TCZjHHpT9CWHDrRKPc/DyN0A== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1754495727; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=EqkE/fxlb8GVdIqiSfhPUP10GnT3DAAOfs7ld5leYb2uv5E12fEqTUj/fZtW4etXXJQhp+ 8M6gTk7q+OxCQm7DHsRuJCx9QULIZdduZuNDWJC5p9DL/p1kELzA2FGM8T1KHVvId0kxHm BtjRtrDKyea2Jz7/VcZBkzZsKojbwEAHy3aPpirDQ0yqowNfbq63as2Gd77xdKJiI035LX AbEL/YVK5EnnOIHi5aD775ExlG0yurX1ifrm6qm1z/AtvaR5JDosQZ0oQmfLCo8Eyau/hY mTlcwKJ6XtY0nboW52i2SMcQEtZPOIot45tJg9vz3+AxxFPf9IeH+7d54M7l6g== Received: from ltc.des.dev (unknown [IPv6:2a01:e0a:c54:bed0:922e:16ff:fef1:acef]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: des) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4bxvyR2mgWzGdd; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 15:55:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) Received: by ltc.des.dev (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 2228B12643; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 17:55:26 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Rick Macklem Cc: FreeBSD CURRENT Subject: Re: RFC: Does ZFS block cloning do this? In-Reply-To: (Rick Macklem's message of "Wed, 6 Aug 2025 08:17:10 -0700") References: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2025 17:55:26 +0200 Message-ID: <86bjos5tsh.fsf@ltc.des.dev> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rick Macklem writes: > NFSv4.2 has a CLONE operation. It is described as doing: > The CLONE operation is used to clone file content from a source file > specified by the SAVED_FH value into a destination file specified by > CURRENT_FH without actually copying the data, e.g., by using a > copy-on-write mechanism. > [...] > Does ZFS block cloning do this? The question you should be asking is =E2=80=9Cdoes FreeBSD currently provide something that could be used to implement this=E2=80=9D and the answer is VOP_COPY_FILE_RANGE(9). It will copy the data if the underlying filesystem does not provide a no-copy mechanism or if that mechanism can't be used (e.g. the files are in different pools), but it shouldn't be difficult to add a flag; calling VOP_COPY_FILE_RANGE() with that flag would implement intra-server CLONE, and calling it without the flag would implement intra-server COPY. Note that VOP_COPY_FILE_RANGE() does not always copy the entire file in a single operation; you will have to call it in a loop until len is zero or an error occurs. 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To: =?UTF-8?Q?Dag=2DErling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= Cc: FreeBSD CURRENT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bxw1r0tjJz3Hf7 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] On Wed, Aug 6, 2025 at 8:55=E2=80=AFAM Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav wrote: > > Rick Macklem writes: > > NFSv4.2 has a CLONE operation. It is described as doing: > > The CLONE operation is used to clone file content from a source file > > specified by the SAVED_FH value into a destination file specified by > > CURRENT_FH without actually copying the data, e.g., by using a > > copy-on-write mechanism. > > [...] > > Does ZFS block cloning do this? > > The question you should be asking is =E2=80=9Cdoes FreeBSD currently prov= ide > something that could be used to implement this=E2=80=9D and the answer is > VOP_COPY_FILE_RANGE(9). It will copy the data if the underlying > filesystem does not provide a no-copy mechanism or if that mechanism > can't be used (e.g. the files are in different pools), but it shouldn't > be difficult to add a flag; calling VOP_COPY_FILE_RANGE() with that flag > would implement intra-server CLONE, and calling it without the flag > would implement intra-server COPY. Yes, as I just posted, I think a flag should be sufficient. > > Note that VOP_COPY_FILE_RANGE() does not always copy the entire file in > a single operation; you will have to call it in a loop until len is zero > or an error occurs. For the CLONE case (indicated by the flag) it would need to run to completi= on. (It can only be allowed if that is guaranteed to not take more than 1-2sec. That is why NFSv4.2 has a separate CLONE operation.) rick > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@FreeBSD.org From nobody Wed Aug 6 16:20:27 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bxwWZ0NvSz63wDw for ; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 16:20:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asomers@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ed1-f45.google.com (mail-ed1-f45.google.com [209.85.208.45]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bxwWY2tD5z3LTC for ; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 16:20:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asomers@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of asomers@gmail.com designates 209.85.208.45 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=asomers@gmail.com; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed), No valid DKIM" header.from=freebsd.org (policy=none) Received: by mail-ed1-f45.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-61571192c3aso65681a12.2 for ; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 09:20:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1754497240; x=1755102040; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=1NhkQ1s9oaTBlBrFoJXADHU2B1LCbPL6fnVljFO1ge8=; b=ZNzZrX39odjEcu6etxaTw+NJmzlTr74Cx4rpxY9N4BnaqsvbFxJGxHH07wWJ3biTMB sBL7cyWXH53DzW8mJvOdBCh7VrDFlEsIwKY0hO+5OroQT/vZ2BnV3KWNo+TD8W5WA0Ju gocCSC/Eeom7W55AIqIFKNf1Cifb/vlqMgrRmiokUqHSEzMLIIJiO3yElH6Bi+Rq8EnA 4IJlKO7KQMUnQyPfv0oDHI7IYTGE1DBNtyXUM7ZXR/vNn1AWHlK4qJRX7VJTYYS45xit j6BsbbZlz31noGxGPpxmZ5lXuZ4FcjMKNYRjIj85jgeOQTuXz237ItkzecjNi4DtEAFR wdUA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yy8g2YoIraV9hxyRMJm+RCwctvRdG3j/3qEFG5btbWnwxh0qD9R CTHTptrIWbxPuUMMuiXXxgSRHu3vw3Acp4YayoJYgGnN36b4niyjwDC3jjQBa4oAyUmGArTn3bF +oUSJsrlJAeSIxLWwF03il9jpnHgMhwa50w== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncveE97K+7+vwjXM8sHiykF98bYZ6jK487FnXZoaMYflgXaK6dEG0pgoDM9+ELG hKF3yQF/kDbO5Hwbw4evLrPThltQ/+0s08RXC04CYBe6Nvsz6XrfSF2J4vaaj/AGAlrHfiAT5wP BW9zseCPuO/ZcpWKqW2i3gmNDqu9Eci/Zuz1eIGzONJMoT7R+QpYVPwoI0YMAiXunmsr01QqqrJ sTpY70= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFAY0yEgHofZDzxcrmv/Y7e/MXqB6hLesfCSGx5fYOkGzGQ9ezUITITKdjVCsqSMXfic4xrmG4stR8ugfCkRpw= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:3111:b0:615:399e:d3ba with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-61797e2b407mr1846145a12.32.1754497239614; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 09:20:39 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Alan Somers Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2025 10:20:27 -0600 X-Gm-Features: Ac12FXw-8izLdC3teur5weC3e9Z4baQqa8kn8r0VC8SwBI0pQ9NiB9mbzDu3thw Message-ID: Subject: Re: RFC: Does ZFS block cloning do this? To: Rick Macklem Cc: FreeBSD CURRENT Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ba0d37063bb4b8c6" X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.10 / 15.00]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[0.997]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.996]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[asomers@freebsd.org,asomers@gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17:c]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[freebsd.org : SPF not aligned (relaxed), No valid DKIM,none]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[asomers]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[asomers@freebsd.org,asomers@gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[209.85.208.45:from]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[209.85.208.45:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bxwWY2tD5z3LTC X-Spamd-Bar: / --000000000000ba0d37063bb4b8c6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Aug 6, 2025 at 9:54=E2=80=AFAM Rick Macklem wrote: > On Wed, Aug 6, 2025 at 8:32=E2=80=AFAM Alan Somers = wrote: > > > > On Wed, Aug 6, 2025 at 9:18=E2=80=AFAM Rick Macklem > wrote: > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> NFSv4.2 has a CLONE operation. It is described as doing: > >> The CLONE operation is used to clone file content from a source fil= e > >> specified by the SAVED_FH value into a destination file specified b= y > >> CURRENT_FH without actually copying the data, e.g., by using a > >> copy-on-write mechanism. > >> (It takes arguments for 2 files, with byte offsets and a length.) > >> The offsets must be aligned to a value returned by the NFSv4.2 server. > >> 12.2.1. Attribute 77: clone_blksize > >> > >> The clone_blksize attribute indicates the granularity of a CLONE > >> operation. > >> > >> Does ZFS block cloning do this? > >> > >> I am asking now, because although it might be too late, > >> if the answer is "yes", I'd like to get VOP calls into 15.0 > >> for it. (Hopefully with the VOP calls in place, the rest could > >> go in sometime later, when I find the time to do it.) > >> > >> Thanks in advance for any comments, rick > > > > > > Yes, it does that right now, if the feature@block_cloning pool > attribute is enabled. It works with VOP_COPY_FILE_RANGE. Does NFS reall= y > need a new VOP? > Either a new VOP or maybe a new flag argument for VOP_COPY_FILE_RANGE(). > Linux defined a flag argument for their copy_file_range(), but they have > never > defined any flags. Of course, that doesn't mean there cannot be a > "kernel internal" > flag. > > So maybe adding a new VOP can be avoided. That would be nice, given the > timing > of the 15.0 release and other churn going on. > > The difference for NFSv4.2 is that CLONE cannot return with partial > completion. > (It assumes that a CLONE of any size will complete quickly enough for an > RPC. > Although there is no fixed limit, most assume an RPC reply should happen = in > 1-2sec at most. For COPY, the server can return with only part of the > copy done.) > It also includes alignment restrictions for the byte offsets. > > There is also the alignment restriction on CLONE. There doesn't seem to b= e > an alignment restriction on zfs_clone_range(), but maybe it is buried > inside it? > I think adding yet another pathconf name to get the alignment requirement > and > whether or not the file system supports it would work without any VOP > change. > > rick > zfs_clone_range doesn't have any alignment restrictions. But if the argument isn't aligned to a record boundary, ZFS will actually copy a partial record, rather than clone it. Regarding the copy-to-completion requirement, could that be implemented within nfs by looping over VOP_COPY_FILE_RANGE? --000000000000ba0d37063bb4b8c6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Aug 6, 2025 at 9:54=E2=80=AFAM Rick M= acklem <rick.macklem@gmail.com= > wrote:
= On Wed, Aug 6, 2025 at 8:32=E2=80=AFAM Alan Somers <asomers@freebsd.org> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Aug 6, 2025 at 9:18=E2=80=AFAM Rick Macklem <rick.macklem@gmail.com>= ; wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> NFSv4.2 has a CLONE operation. It is described as doing:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The CLONE operation is used to clone file content fro= m a source file
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 specified by the SAVED_FH value into a destination fi= le specified by
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 CURRENT_FH without actually copying the data, e.g., b= y using a
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 copy-on-write mechanism.
>> (It takes arguments for 2 files, with byte offsets and a length.)<= br> >> The offsets must be aligned to a value returned by the NFSv4.2 ser= ver.
>> 12.2.1.=C2=A0 Attribute 77: clone_blksize
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The clone_blksize attribute indicates the granularity= of a CLONE
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 operation.
>>
>> Does ZFS block cloning do this?
>>
>> I am asking now, because although it might be too late,
>> if the answer is "yes", I'd like to get VOP calls in= to 15.0
>> for it. (Hopefully with the VOP calls in place, the rest could
>> go in sometime later, when I find the time to do it.)
>>
>> Thanks in advance for any comments, rick
>
>
> Yes, it does that right now, if the feature@block_cloning pool attribu= te is enabled.=C2=A0 It works with VOP_COPY_FILE_RANGE.=C2=A0 Does NFS real= ly need a new VOP?
Either a new VOP or maybe a new flag argument for VOP_COPY_FILE_RANGE(). Linux defined a flag argument for their copy_file_range(), but they have ne= ver
defined any flags. Of course, that doesn't mean there cannot be a
"kernel internal"
flag.

So maybe adding a new VOP can be avoided. That would be nice, given the tim= ing
of the 15.0 release and other churn going on.

The difference for NFSv4.2 is that CLONE cannot return with partial complet= ion.
(It assumes that a CLONE of any size will complete quickly enough for an RP= C.
Although there is no fixed limit, most assume an RPC reply should happen in=
1-2sec at most. For COPY, the server can return with only part of the
copy done.)
It also includes alignment restrictions for the byte offsets.

There is also the alignment restriction on CLONE. There doesn't seem to= be
an alignment restriction on zfs_clone_range(), but maybe it is buried insid= e it?
I think adding yet another pathconf name to get the alignment requirement a= nd
whether or not the file system supports it would work without any VOP chang= e.

rick

zfs_clone_range doesn't have a= ny alignment restrictions.=C2=A0 But if the argument isn't aligned to a= record boundary, ZFS will actually copy a partial record, rather than clon= e it.=C2=A0 Regarding the copy-to-completion requirement, could that be imp= lemented within nfs by looping over VOP_COPY_FILE_RANGE?=C2=A0
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([2600:1700:3580:3560:a236:9fff:fe4f:c69a]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 00721157ae682-71b5a3fa654sm39996667b3.34.2025.08.06.09.28.44 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Aug 2025 09:28:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8925b735-8398-4e0f-95f7-8d1115413013@FreeBSD.org> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2025 12:28:44 -0400 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: RFC: Does ZFS block cloning do this? To: Rick Macklem , Alan Somers Cc: FreeBSD CURRENT References: Content-Language: en-US From: Alexander Motin In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.10 / 15.00]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[mav@FreeBSD.org,mavbsd@gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20230601]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[freebsd.org : SPF not aligned (relaxed), DKIM not aligned (relaxed),none]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com,freebsd.org]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::112a:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[mav@FreeBSD.org,mavbsd@gmail.com]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bxwhz4ztRz3R79 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Hi Rick, On 8/6/25 11:54, Rick Macklem wrote: > The difference for NFSv4.2 is that CLONE cannot return with partial completion. > (It assumes that a CLONE of any size will complete quickly enough for an RPC. > Although there is no fixed limit, most assume an RPC reply should happen in > 1-2sec at most. For COPY, the server can return with only part of the > copy done.) > It also includes alignment restrictions for the byte offsets. > > There is also the alignment restriction on CLONE. There doesn't seem to be > an alignment restriction on zfs_clone_range(), but maybe it is buried inside it? > I think adding yet another pathconf name to get the alignment requirement and > whether or not the file system supports it would work without any VOP change. The semantics you describe looks similar to Linux FICLONE/FICLONERANGE calls, that got adopted there before copy_file_range(). IIRC those effectively mean -- clone the file or its range as requested or fail. I am not sure why some people prefer those calls, explicitly not allowing fallback to copy, but theere are some, for example Veeam backup fails if ZFS rejects the cloning request for any reason. For Linux ZFS has a separate code (see zpl_remap_file_range() and respective VFS calls) wrapping around block cloning to implement this semantics. FreeBSD does not have the equivalent at this point, but it would be trivial to add, if we really need those VOPs. -- Alexander Motin From nobody Wed Aug 6 16:38:53 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bxwwx0XjVz63xG9 for ; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 16:39:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rick.macklem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ed1-x52c.google.com (mail-ed1-x52c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bxwww5Xm6z3TkM; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 16:39:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rick.macklem@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-ed1-x52c.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-60bfcada295so112834a12.1; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 09:39:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1754498346; x=1755103146; darn=freebsd.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=GB3iBnD0nHjClDxyY3vvNf4gjNvZauT8msmR8w187J8=; b=lZlZ/wNsitCF27fPs+UDXZsAGXCJEDQEvtWJfmb59hwUjIryDGp9DQ9oOqR4DvXcbz Wc1pYAZ6nW4Bjl7YH+zeUrC+qoC1D+xeThUo7AFL+NOc6BtXg7K8M1BY6XRTUoy3jr9l Nlq6MS0OuCCoOulATVKU0tCWpi0cNmzUIgyjgwui8qxmH7BnL2HzgkTIa0CcHulOGUYh WfVkUlp04Ig1FzO1BrhDwLyEGELUkHt6WBLlT5zuvI5f8SlLDtYLgZGUOeTMn4yP2MPe Dg4KuCpHDrZJfPPCu9rQjCUTeYrJWEONPHAycDLYiWvySwllQajpuwMgPmThzUKuNeq/ asZA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1754498346; x=1755103146; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=GB3iBnD0nHjClDxyY3vvNf4gjNvZauT8msmR8w187J8=; b=MLAaMufhgJomhh4DuknKIjn3QMJNmYBelma5HimoAj8WS1bz9so/Tb50vqsfcdxQFH RqKbjr9z8dW3x8t936vL3VaIgEP6TovyyINJ2yfwMRgIZHI1DLXVki4vU51OTz71Pc98 uA0V84bKUIaT8YSZF2MfTJJ74h7jUqwGJvxwB+cmN0oebCVCngJHMRAgZolzeRNGTbDh 99R3n698/N2dYiIguL/BgQOhTLdCXW+aVo2hRYaLvJxWborykBbt97qDEqjhJHaWgF9s WJskaYpxBNOP5OT3fTYZmsOFSfxMeJ0YIrLo8xtr4r1dzEA7qGYvBfheOebiYgBzZOGt zQ2w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YybjAkNebcVGQI+mXSAy7SnL1IzREcfWDqR2n3aZXPr4EfYU1pg olkNkgm7nmqxmDqHvZ0LhbxW2C/Kgj+kOe2RQ5hyBQ2jzKGVmWeZKXywcJWztlIpArR6i5PYgXZ hYLVTW2ZibdEob5RNdR+MtDWmfCAKxWwJ X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncttz1DxhZiQlcpavKXhrfQQLJFf9v1r2rO26t5KkafbFmi7bsGloGD6IzxOIpi fPnMMM/T1aBsZtshGlBwQVHHKrIDgQA9ffPgJ8XDfvsd+I3dgrEOgyVn26YbB3+NjhPh3M47iNZ d5DBcsHFtsJfanCl8rYN4iCKi2KlOGofN7tlHKk3sJ0t+Ujyj4F/E4aZlQU/slSCAHZpsYVJm1r 1xXSR6kCH6DdSPp+efn8T+VtyOwTX6L09PsYYU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IF7eglVlV2xjpg477E5poo6mF614txwCV/WILYprVWs1Nmv/4TD0EZD6IEP4RI5twFIA4ACYaUcpRNwwlTL0rQ= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:2551:b0:615:6fae:d766 with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-61797e2c2a9mr2965552a12.26.1754498346338; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 09:39:06 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Rick Macklem Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2025 09:38:53 -0700 X-Gm-Features: Ac12FXz_ObDXWs7AW_C4G57DUoUzLpi-ps1Y0w9Vufpb7mLFfiJDidxk6xiun8Y Message-ID: Subject: Re: RFC: Does ZFS block cloning do this? To: Alan Somers Cc: FreeBSD CURRENT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bxwww5Xm6z3TkM X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] On Wed, Aug 6, 2025 at 9:20=E2=80=AFAM Alan Somers wr= ote: > > On Wed, Aug 6, 2025 at 9:54=E2=80=AFAM Rick Macklem wrote: >> >> On Wed, Aug 6, 2025 at 8:32=E2=80=AFAM Alan Somers = wrote: >> > >> > On Wed, Aug 6, 2025 at 9:18=E2=80=AFAM Rick Macklem wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> NFSv4.2 has a CLONE operation. It is described as doing: >> >> The CLONE operation is used to clone file content from a source fi= le >> >> specified by the SAVED_FH value into a destination file specified = by >> >> CURRENT_FH without actually copying the data, e.g., by using a >> >> copy-on-write mechanism. >> >> (It takes arguments for 2 files, with byte offsets and a length.) >> >> The offsets must be aligned to a value returned by the NFSv4.2 server= . >> >> 12.2.1. Attribute 77: clone_blksize >> >> >> >> The clone_blksize attribute indicates the granularity of a CLONE >> >> operation. >> >> >> >> Does ZFS block cloning do this? >> >> >> >> I am asking now, because although it might be too late, >> >> if the answer is "yes", I'd like to get VOP calls into 15.0 >> >> for it. (Hopefully with the VOP calls in place, the rest could >> >> go in sometime later, when I find the time to do it.) >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance for any comments, rick >> > >> > >> > Yes, it does that right now, if the feature@block_cloning pool attribu= te is enabled. It works with VOP_COPY_FILE_RANGE. Does NFS really need a = new VOP? >> Either a new VOP or maybe a new flag argument for VOP_COPY_FILE_RANGE(). >> Linux defined a flag argument for their copy_file_range(), but they have= never >> defined any flags. Of course, that doesn't mean there cannot be a >> "kernel internal" >> flag. >> >> So maybe adding a new VOP can be avoided. That would be nice, given the = timing >> of the 15.0 release and other churn going on. >> >> The difference for NFSv4.2 is that CLONE cannot return with partial comp= letion. >> (It assumes that a CLONE of any size will complete quickly enough for an= RPC. >> Although there is no fixed limit, most assume an RPC reply should happen= in >> 1-2sec at most. For COPY, the server can return with only part of the >> copy done.) >> It also includes alignment restrictions for the byte offsets. >> >> There is also the alignment restriction on CLONE. There doesn't seem to = be >> an alignment restriction on zfs_clone_range(), but maybe it is buried in= side it? >> I think adding yet another pathconf name to get the alignment requiremen= t and >> whether or not the file system supports it would work without any VOP ch= ange. >> >> rick > > > zfs_clone_range doesn't have any alignment restrictions. But if the argu= ment isn't aligned to a record boundary, ZFS will actually copy a partial r= ecord, rather than clone it. Regarding the copy-to-completion requirement,= could that be implemented within nfs by looping over VOP_COPY_FILE_RANGE? But the reason behind partial completion is the time restriction. The NFSv4= .2 server limits the size to vfs.nfsd.maxcopyrange and sets a 1sec time limit via a flag to vn_copy_file_range(). For CLONE, it needs to either: - be able to complete the entire "copy" within 1-2sec under normal circumstances, irrespective of length. or - return not supported, so the client will switch to using COPY. rick From nobody Wed Aug 6 16:46:54 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bxx643tkHz63xrW for ; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 16:47:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rick.macklem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ed1-x533.google.com (mail-ed1-x533.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::533]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bxx641Pp5z3X1W; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 16:47:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rick.macklem@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-ed1-x533.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-6157c81ff9eso126560a12.3; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 09:47:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1754498826; x=1755103626; darn=freebsd.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=fJZn3HoXYz7Q29EnNsU3TpQQoO7A1GTBAWyzZBY8oYc=; b=b2xruaLbqJXLjozMR+3bQF5fV9pKwTc0gR4TResYTGuDCChw/8KykB45WdtjuSqBBI +Xasz5q2wePHD9Ck2pmnV6WSDM2cDL958gnRbC8IPk9/P5nPETMtwMohdR60OsmiyxxQ IZwqGmW3hOZn35dHZt4Kd3Plp1vyekaqaJvP/A+JyHeOisf9NUdm1lu1PBXbiE5bUBNb pvxOd9jbImEkjNSKkNeUZG7RuW9NtkKHpGTNz36Wa15w7F05rg4LJqHcAvEjT3kSjegz g/wn6QBrFL+cK9RzNr0fgRPtkR1UVdfRCVwGynrA8597tTVUCWQnljvJyQwN2V5F71jX 08qA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1754498826; x=1755103626; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=fJZn3HoXYz7Q29EnNsU3TpQQoO7A1GTBAWyzZBY8oYc=; b=o0UhNvUdkC0Y1NreHVJmv85yZ+nysxdYhimZpM0tlmt7v4ujpnKUWRXgWtjHcv11p8 Gw+Aj59WnJW+q+kiKYAUYzvVBbBRLByAENLxWpFchvv4ufYJEBkfnVA5QENq0E//BG5t dW0JG7yBXl6x1m0XDbCvleYRI9zU0fFgnhXbj2btSHNm5fIQQNAZtyz4/PNzthKjdpvU MvAFu4p77TIUkLhhVIyTJ209hFMGGYyGWAU6mVwvcOHt9gpKbzl+1HV9qTUscDcxmQ+C fq9dElQrcQFVUFFZDzs4mKoG5Tbc7y0hCwN9ctA7CCD0kNu1srJtDGRqRqyhu0LVCGMS GS0w== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCUQiKSnC8R8/3Q/A2KCehm352TjOIaro9osgeLIxvhMwVX6UomneJfEkdBvk6u2qcOnpWudTjUHRvfN7osjQrY=@freebsd.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yz25bINeCTzsc21JdrfosvfsK5POtz7+JeUBruVx8L64wxIBJSI k4LrTApM3uFUE4glQpzmtkIr1TJ1xWe79IOpCIrk/SJFAW+j3NLRyTGEGKPAzVXhGiUK1mSQda4 ruj2xtiZ+IBguTuC0ITWFnQZJ+ELAxpGO X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncvGte7oCxlzENXtmQdpQ0qFafgow4//L6pOjF5UlgYguvKfpRbW8V/IAkKtnzt GIgGeBNT7T5y1KpxaAcxpi5X0I90lQqlHOboTZ4XeYMI+q6SrlebyaOPFmXsC+8eAMTBtMaLQmu ihs3A1ULGRISKaSy6jwnSTHevI7P8i7VNo/9BkEm4pfr4HQj4k50mBOULPO95gfoyEeqNSOfULr lvx44pK8HVlIkKxPa7Sn7fzYE1RXlSXk/oE4Ko= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IE3shKxF9LaV1oQDC5TfOhnBthhbB5ltguV80QIlb/TQzIT46u09MhO9ZN8RfSVsNbp3/eBPccFBcqO+HDkbYw= X-Received: by 2002:a50:d59e:0:b0:615:5bec:1df with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-617961b96a2mr2297546a12.25.1754498825660; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 09:47:05 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8925b735-8398-4e0f-95f7-8d1115413013@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <8925b735-8398-4e0f-95f7-8d1115413013@FreeBSD.org> From: Rick Macklem Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2025 09:46:54 -0700 X-Gm-Features: Ac12FXx0zL_68kZo-eoqMVByQRcTWbfTj-DP-bHtI1077S1TdjNt7i_yb-90NaI Message-ID: Subject: Re: RFC: Does ZFS block cloning do this? To: Alexander Motin Cc: Alan Somers , FreeBSD CURRENT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bxx641Pp5z3X1W X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] On Wed, Aug 6, 2025 at 9:28=E2=80=AFAM Alexander Motin wr= ote: > > Hi Rick, > > On 8/6/25 11:54, Rick Macklem wrote: > > The difference for NFSv4.2 is that CLONE cannot return with partial com= pletion. > > (It assumes that a CLONE of any size will complete quickly enough for a= n RPC. > > Although there is no fixed limit, most assume an RPC reply should happe= n in > > 1-2sec at most. For COPY, the server can return with only part of the > > copy done.) > > It also includes alignment restrictions for the byte offsets. > > > > There is also the alignment restriction on CLONE. There doesn't seem to= be > > an alignment restriction on zfs_clone_range(), but maybe it is buried i= nside it? > > I think adding yet another pathconf name to get the alignment requireme= nt and > > whether or not the file system supports it would work without any VOP c= hange. > > The semantics you describe looks similar to Linux FICLONE/FICLONERANGE > calls, that got adopted there before copy_file_range(). IIRC those > effectively mean -- clone the file or its range as requested or fail. I > am not sure why some people prefer those calls, explicitly not allowing > fallback to copy, but theere are some, for example Veeam backup fails if > ZFS rejects the cloning request for any reason. For Linux ZFS has a > separate code (see zpl_remap_file_range() and respective VFS calls) > wrapping around block cloning to implement this semantics. FreeBSD does > not have the equivalent at this point, but it would be trivial to add, > if we really need those VOPs. For NFSv4.2 (which I suspect was modelled after what Linux does) the difference is the ability to complete the entire "copy" within 1-2sec under normal circumstances. --> The NFSv4.2 CLONE operation requires this. whereas for the NFSv4.2 COPY --> It is allowed to return after a partial completion to adhere to the 1-2= sec rule. This probably does not affect ZFS, but it is needed for the "in general" UFS case. There may be no difference needed for zfs_copy_file_range(). So long as it never returns after a partial completion. If it does return after partial completion, a flag would indicate "must complete it". As for FreeBSD syscalls, I don't see a need for a new one. I'll leave that up to others. pathconf(2) could be used to determine if cloning is supported. Thanks for all the comments. It looks like a new "kernel only" flag for VOP_COPY_FILE_RANGE() and a new name for VOP_PATHCONF() should be all that is needed. rick > > -- > Alexander Motin From nobody Wed Aug 6 17:40:36 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bxyJ12SBlz641HQ; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 17:40:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Received: from smtpo73.interia.pl (smtpo73.interia.pl [217.74.67.73]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bxyJ06G44z3dZ4; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 17:40:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2025 19:40:36 +0200 From: vermaden Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature To: Ceri Davies Cc: "FreeBSD-pkgbase@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" X-Mailer: interia.pl/pf09 In-Reply-To: <7E69E694-963C-4D69-B5B5-891330FF16A2@submonkey.net> References: <7E69E694-963C-4D69-B5B5-891330FF16A2@submonkey.net> X-Originating-IP: 45.148.42.1 Message-Id: List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=interia.pl; s=biztos; t=1754502040; bh=yTYOqzOYh5xOWB/Z5nZEWcQWfh6+0cK3dSq8VNZDF/I=; h=Date:From:Subject:To:Message-Id:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Q5TPEYJ9xuShW0rKXhYz9sgomBS4k1x050+wZ8IMPU8CvnXL3Ng6xx3amhRBj2kIp XpEk1OiZnKoOkrMEhzuALsQW6uOptPGYklHPDw5ucddHnl2J1Qb8LounSW8uucyv49 X9mFn0dK+y9GudElu9ohENyCjq58O2hgr310qPRE= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bxyJ06G44z3dZ4 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16138, ipnet:217.74.64.0/22, country:PL] > Because that=E2=80=99s what you asked for. > Why would the command do anything other than that? > If it did not, what command should and would you oppose it existing? The problem is that the same 'pkg delete -af' command - will behave DIFFERE= NTLY with PKGBASE and without PKGBASE on the same FreeBSD version system - = that is the center of the problem. Everyone that use FreeBSD got used to the fact that pkg(8) command maintain= s only third party packages and Base System is untouched. With current stat= e of PKGBASE FreeBSD is no different then a Linux distribution with yum/dnf= /apt package manager - the Base System 'security' is broken. Regards, vermaden Temat: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Data: 2025-08-06 18:45 Nadawca: "Ceri Davies" <ceri@submonkey.net> Adresat: "vermaden" <vermaden@interia.pl>;=20 DW: FreeBSD-pkgbase@freebsd.org; freebsd-stable@freebsd.org; freebsd-pkg@fr= eebsd.org; freebsd-current@freebsd.org;=20 >> On 30 Jul 2025, at 01:28, vermaden wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BFHi, >>=20 >> after short discussion here: >> - https://github.com/freebsd/pkg/issues/2485 >>=20 >> I got REALLY concerned. >>=20 >> One of THE features and selling points of a FreeBSD UNIX system is the 'untouchable' Base System. >>=20 >> Without PKGBASE all the features are preserved. >>=20 >> But when You convert to PKGBASE its ... GONE! >>=20 >> Consider this command: >>=20 >> # pkg delete -af >>=20 >> What it does? >>=20 >> It removes all third party packages on 'classic' FreeBSD system without touching the FreeBSD Base System. >>=20 >> What the same "pkg delete -af" command does on a PKGBASE FreeBSD system? >>=20 >> It kills/destroys almost all of the FreeBSD Base System and leaves only two PKGBASE packages called: >>=20 >> - FreeBSD-clibs >> - FreeBSD-runtime >>=20 >> All the rest of Base System is GONE. Destroyed. >>=20 >> You do not even have vi(1) editor ad /rescue is separate not protected FreeBSD-rescue package and its also removed. >>=20 >> WTF?! >>=20 >> POLA is the principle that made FreeBSD such predictable system. Where is the POLA now? >> Why the same *pkg delete -af* command on 'classic' FreeBSD system without PKGBASE only removes all third party packages and the same *pkg delete -af* literally destroys most of the FreeBSD PKGBASE Base System? >=20 > Because that=E2=80=99s what you asked for. Why would the command do anything other than that? If it did not, what command should and would you oppose it existing? >=20 > Ceri=20 >=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Aug 6 21:54:35 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4by3x51F5qz64GbW; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 21:54:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Received: from smtpo49.interia.pl (smtpo49.interia.pl [217.74.67.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4by3x45t6Pz3MPr; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 21:54:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2025 23:54:35 +0200 From: vermaden Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature To: Ceri Davies Cc: "FreeBSD-pkgbase@freebsd.org" , freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: interia.pl/pf09 In-Reply-To: <742CE190-C37F-4665-874E-E3851060E18D@submonkey.net> References: <742CE190-C37F-4665-874E-E3851060E18D@submonkey.net> X-Originating-IP: 45.148.42.1 Message-Id: List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=interia.pl; s=biztos; t=1754517279; bh=o0ACDJN+AMM/Oz3EpGJyESFONq9juOn8pwngu4QojL8=; h=Date:From:Subject:To:Message-Id:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=bL4UsIClWDwfbwvA0xDnzl+S7X5iIiXDPjVNiZLxKISP39wImpyn6ZGM8g4tI8kW7 Q9NdD5ftr6+wyoBeByoAQzk8syscr/X3D8yhTJfZ2/+cPK6V55345se3aDOZGzgdoG sIox2gpSFV12yKZxDTs9mhRgCYx7tTVrsByeAqek= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4by3x45t6Pz3MPr X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16138, ipnet:217.74.64.0/22, country:PL] > No, it has the same behaviour. English is not my primary language so I will try to explain in more simple = words as you probably did not understood. NOPE. It DOES NOT has the same behavior. Situation A. A.1. You have FreeBSD 15-CURRENT installed in 'classic' way. A.2. You issue this command: # pkg delete -af A.3. All Third Party packages are deleted from your system. A.4. You FreeBSD 15-CURRENT Base System remain UNTOUCHED. Situation B. B.1. You have FreeBSD 15-CURRENT installed in 'PKGBSD' way. B.2. You issue this command: # pkg delete -af B.3. All Third Party packages are deleted from your system. B.4. You FreeBSD 15-CURRENT Base System is REMOVED with only 2/290 packages= UNTOUCHED Details here: - https://github.com/freebsd/pkg/issues/2485#issuecomment-3133359219 Regards, vermaden Temat: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Data: 2025-08-06 23:11 Nadawca: "Ceri Davies" <ceri@submonkey.net> Adresat: "vermaden" <vermaden@interia.pl>;=20 DW: FreeBSD-pkgbase@freebsd.org;=20 >> On 6 Aug 2025, at 18:40, vermaden wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BF >>>=20 >>> Because that=E2=80=99s what you asked for. >>> Why would the command do anything other than that? >>> If it did not, what command should and would you oppose it existing? >>=20 >> The problem is that the same 'pkg delete -af' command - will behave DIFFERENTLY with PKGBASE and without PKGBASE on the same FreeBSD version system - that is the center of the problem. >>=20 >=20 > No, it has the same behaviour. >=20 > The result on the system may be different, but that is true of many, many commands that make assumptions about the existing configuration of a system. >=20 > Ceri >=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Aug 6 22:21:32 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4by4X31smvz64J2x; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 22:21:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Received: from smtpo73.interia.pl (smtpo73.interia.pl [217.74.67.73]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4by4X26MKZz3RnN; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 22:21:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2025 00:21:32 +0200 From: vermaden Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature To: Ceri Davies Cc: "FreeBSD-pkgbase@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" X-Mailer: interia.pl/pf09 In-Reply-To: References: X-Originating-IP: 45.148.42.1 Message-Id: List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=interia.pl; s=biztos; t=1754518897; bh=dwxUzjh9YvX0lQikjfrfaADN2Dz9q4LCBC96nIMkt2s=; h=Date:From:Subject:To:Message-Id:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=cQyCWt/za5dtbO+sFUg+jZXwNPBklV/asyxJ8fYtHie6D3WemtNJ5zxxsEyKIvirr 4jmoOEduw7K58DUMbnyLfxZCEQdFP4q4EKSn2slJ0waq560eIwzcFapoIuMrVCIHpz 13M/O/iOzJgh+OUUE3slVY4igLr1cXaQGF39aR+Y= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4by4X26MKZz3RnN X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16138, ipnet:217.74.64.0/22, country:PL] So You still do not understand ... The pkg(8) command works fine - its just NOT SUPPOSE to DESTROY most of the= FreeBSD Base System - because FreeBSD is not Linux to allow shit like that= ... Temat: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Data: 2025-08-07 0:13 Nadawca: "Ceri Davies" <ceri@submonkey.net> Adresat: "vermaden" <vermaden@interia.pl>;=20 DW: FreeBSD-pkgbase@freebsd.org; freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org; freebsd-current@f= reebsd.org; freebsd-stable@freebsd.org;=20 >> On 6 Aug 2025, at 22:54, vermaden wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BF >>>=20 >>> No, it has the same behaviour. >>=20 >> English is not my primary language so I will try to explain in more simple words as you probably did not understood. >>=20 >> NOPE. >>=20 >> It DOES NOT has the same behavior. >=20 > In each case it forcibly deletes all the packages from your system, like you asked. >=20 > I understood you fine, I just disagree that this is a shocking result when you have specified the =E2=80=9Call=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cforce=E2=80= =9D flags. In fact it is exactly what that command is documented to do and therefore is very far from a violation of the principle of least astonishment. >=20 > Ceri >>>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Aug 6 23:03:52 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4by5Sz3b1dz64L9y; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 23:04:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from grahamperrin@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wr1-x42b.google.com (mail-wr1-x42b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4by5Sy1qyyz3c93; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 23:04:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from grahamperrin@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=TJE8XMF8; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of grahamperrin@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::42b as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=grahamperrin@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com Received: by mail-wr1-x42b.google.com with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-3b78127c5d1so180539f8f.3; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 16:04:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1754521434; x=1755126234; darn=freebsd.org; h=in-reply-to:autocrypt:cc:from:content-language:references:to :subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject :date:message-id:reply-to; bh=bGHCp4UCS5ysE1me3BKHoBP76JFlQZq2EXuxXrwsANM=; b=TJE8XMF8IuYlxT34Ab0yluk2cDrSp6EL3ytVM9E2Yr1+Sw+SBwclqwtgBoT/F36PKX CTqXXJaBRQDfgqCK35kAxFbTTe1HGtDLKHeibLPVbTnKpDwMm+B1KfuH6VUwp3udGxJR Mo9xbtpjML3QxeZ8ov0VxiTDS3ymVU+puRG1+2AUJbcgHgoqY550UOc2rxpbM2yFP0Uf EC7igZXkRbWuvPE7oS32ipHx5WtxnhYB9dodVKtm8rAu9luWUgslOaNZg3/0yGAkaH6G kZ9TGE+5tsgDhSLFQrHRU9/kHUOzuc+nLZQRz6krQKP3I7X5KGJJOaWxyyTt8tznkUTP 3ncw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1754521434; x=1755126234; h=in-reply-to:autocrypt:cc:from:content-language:references:to :subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id:x-gm-message-state :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=bGHCp4UCS5ysE1me3BKHoBP76JFlQZq2EXuxXrwsANM=; b=BjZLwhImlRvefYBWDJf/Jf/NND6XxhsYi0DJxaREULYA2TQ8eeq9Q0XNvh7cjO+g7a QbyVw1walUh6RE1Gc4oJ/4qZUi3OqYjBx8TCmTsXIqz01E4f/3VO1CVAG3wzg6SypRg7 7/nsuavUH9x9JTdeRMMIQlDBo/EcYkHoIXlgnbvLOpj6S24bQc6RCn+k7h4Ojg5DJ3gO e08hop/gRJfXuVjXcZMMP9Ivjgnoht6bkeVuef9k0l+sj/ZqY6ZOF7oz8oyutNzuq7BJ 5MrHwynG8d5NM+M8K7y3OIkdnl3mr4AUeiJGLS+W4el4QwxXfRZm0aSasiMNYlIzYmjT kx5w== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCU6Ds6lJpgEOHD4/NVn1P+97BMZJMJoADzfOvqPXpV7bR2gcjaAnnKKAksPHIxIWqt5V5JYL4JHCXa8ddQ=@freebsd.org, AJvYcCWzkRiSK2kwbS27yv028MQOJRM3I8EjzOHZYwL3qqWYBWRRnu/QggxNUZRiqeDr9Wfq9PGB0B4N7TLK6U9IHfE=@freebsd.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yx647E2kn67Ou5fPxxRBuK5dG8o3xBkQCFNA5MQd3BEcWvuLcQj NtmzJYX8dTv91IJS1gC2/+Mr5DOhR+p1Na3PxtwcmBBj7QCdIKT7aJOIZ6LY4pZA X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncs9xH/TJySIU0UXbzlmxBmVTWzPZy29Q8hFDLKZEdZXueAUPQmFaptFL4YxMwr IZBC/mZBsuh8xYghxHb3JE4pxjtMZ84Ihb3EoE4M8o1H+XF2RKk2eyEa2TsbAwLpsg3F53hH03c gvMP2kH2Njs4rKOrGzujQJp1s9SXofDm53pY5AkQ0/NoJFAkfIG0pA4QCsQmYNi48Qb6fc/n0xy 9uYgYtT8KF8yuH0HCnFckl0FckjbA8MkJ9ryJUytmo4Yiz6IZ6I9aWsTk2Z0J6R+61Cj41q7xH7 R925WjRddVmZEo3+e+IyRnl3KEyEFU57XhKrch92nXy96Ytu7G+hVfFvOCFKKCt5a3oWJ9/GvkT VHNAjKuErIRdNacneHX+QJfqfRFoCjKr17SpKVWUAGQ1pl5A1QjeEuT8HHFc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHLcGiKS//SeZ1BQp1pAAGAqW4JdwzhMjvOtFGzr6uqcn6tpJ1ccKWtNH/CCI514qhTmdF3uQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6000:40cb:b0:3a4:dfc2:bb60 with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-3b8f41bb765mr4145934f8f.26.1754521433880; Wed, 06 Aug 2025 16:03:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.4] (host-89-241-205-78.as13285.net. [89.241.205.78]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ffacd0b85a97d-3b79c4533f1sm24853229f8f.42.2025.08.06.16.03.52 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Aug 2025 16:03:53 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------xNVZBNnpa4mBoD7WaeiR600j" Message-ID: Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2025 00:03:52 +0100 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature To: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org References: <8690FF2F-B66D-423E-815C-9D64700A7D7D@yahoo.com> <311e4b5b-86ea-44f0-9418-d319b97634f0@gmail.com> <86qzxo6c7b.fsf@ltc.des.dev> Content-Language: en-GB From: Graham Perrin Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Autocrypt: addr=grahamperrin@gmail.com; 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NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.97)[-0.967]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20230601]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[grahamperrin]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org,freebsd-stable@freebsd.org,freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org,freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::42b:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4by5Sy1qyyz3c93 X-Spamd-Bar: --- This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------xNVZBNnpa4mBoD7WaeiR600j Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 06/08/2025 10:17, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Graham Perrin writes: >> The four lists are not the places for a debate. > You have no authority here. DES conveniently omitted the context. I meant, I'll not abuse the four lists with discussion of content that's off-topic from all four. --------------xNVZBNnpa4mBoD7WaeiR600j Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 06/08/2025 10:17, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote:
Graham Perrin <grahamperrin@gmail.com> writes:

The four lists are not the places for a debate.

You have no authority here.

DES conveniently omitted the context. 

I meant, I'll not abuse the four lists with discussion of content that's off-topic from all four. 

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List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Tomek CEDRO Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2025 01:43:28 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: X-Gm-Features: Ac12FXyF_m5weGcIz8NAks0yCWAIcHzas-Yekye59tqHaOybpDidChd7r9ouGmU Message-ID: Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature To: vermaden Cc: Ceri Davies , "FreeBSD-pkgbase@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4by6Lk3Qq0z3jwY X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] On Thu, Aug 7, 2025 at 12:21=E2=80=AFAM vermaden wrot= e: > > So You still do not understand ... > > The pkg(8) command works fine - its just NOT SUPPOSE to DESTROY most of t= he FreeBSD Base System - because FreeBSD is not Linux to allow shit like th= at ... +1 =3D) Base and Userland should be clearly separated, as it was, as it is, no matter how it will be organized internally (i.e. modular base) :-) Maybe its worth thinking about some sort of standard minimal fallback environment (rescue?) when base gets broken for any reason (i.e. broken pkgbase, broken modules, fs corruption, broken hardware, accident) to either restore last working configuration or recreate defaults with/from what can be saved? :-) --=20 CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From nobody Thu Aug 7 00:09:42 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4by6x95NWGz64PYS for ; Thu, 07 Aug 2025 00:10:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 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[IPv6:2001:7d0:8437:13c8::115]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail.ketas.si.pri.ee (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 558D95BC9E3 for ; Thu, 07 Aug 2025 03:09:43 +0300 (EEST) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2025 03:09:42 +0300 From: Sulev-Madis Silber To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.80 / 15.00]; HFILTER_HOSTNAME_5(3.00)[d004-fea2-0bff-021e-13e8-8437-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.998]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[ketas.si.pri.ee,reject]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[ketas.si.pri.ee:s=ketas-si-pri-ee-20240416002854-4096]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.20)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2001:7d0:8437:1300::/56]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:3249, ipnet:2001:7d0::/32, country:EE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[ketas.si.pri.ee:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4by6x833YZz3nm5 X-Spamd-Bar: / what linux distros do here? extra options to avoid deleting the basic thing= s like kernel and minimal userland utils? if you happen to make way too bro= ad package deletion=2E i don't think linux sysadmins want it either=2E even= if you consider linux moving faster and with less seatbelts ("allow shit l= ike that" (c) vermaden)=2E it's not pkg fault it does wipe system clean if = you asked it=2E also, des@ reminded me that pkg replaced older tracking sys= tem 12 years ago=2E yet, i see pkg production versions being released just = recently with a bug that user immediately notices=2E it was fixed because o= ops humans make mistakes=2E but it would be a horror if pkg does those thin= gs when it manages the entire system=2E granted, you can always boot at lea= st external media when any "nuclear" pkg update comes out=2E this one wasn'= t but=2E=2E=2E and one could say that pkgbase is extensively discussed ever= ywhere=2E but we still have discussions like this here=2E even fights=2E wh= at if you miss all those? i never knew 32bit is on the way out until i happ= ened to randomly read that warning from kernel boot log=2E there are number= of those things in fbsd=2E happened earlier, happened lately=2E maybe it's= inevitable=2E were you scared to install new major version like 5 or 13 ri= ght away because who knows what will happen? luckily there are 2, sometimes= 3 majors to choose from should some of them include rushed in late changes= that turned out to be buggy=2E it feels like it got worse lately=2E i mean= more changes, more breaks=2E i don't know why this isn't confined to curre= nt or stable=2E those are annoying type of changes=2E hopefully pkgbase wil= l not be switched on before it's done=2E but pkg for ports still has issues= and it's now default package manager here=2E feels like too much hassle=2E= there are many changes, i mean=2E good, but extra fuzz=2E drm for gpus, wi= fi driver changes, wifi adapter firmware loading changes=2E all with somebo= dy complaining that (s)he didn't know there was breaking change=2E i don't = have had reason to run -af and not checking either but if you had habit of = doing that, it would be similar to rm ~ catching the / along too=2E unsure = what the fix is=2E (userland) utils and kernel printing it out to console? = over longer period of time? i mean i could understand that change was discu= ssed "everywhere", meetings, mailing lists=2E it would still be missed=2E i= f i make something, which i only tried once, and publish it, i would never = expect them to be aware of changes i make=2E because release notes, changel= ogs, those don't get attention=2E and you can still miss stuff=2E i once to= ld that correct procedure is to check everything throughly and then upgrade= , but i have passed this myself often=2E and have gotten "fallouts" too=2E = in fbsd the only thing i would need to stand back, squint and duck is when = booting new current=2E when pkgbase gets out in installer, i expect it to = still have issues and i would rather stand back and watch this "nuke" going= off=2E because it does make radical changes=2E one of most wtf is that now= one needs to deal /etc in new ways=2E and if those differ from mergemaster= or etcupdate, it would make somebody mad=2E perhaps even worse than i coul= d=2E in my mind, changes are good=2E if they are reasonable=2E and known=2E= probably knowing is biggest issue=2E what if one misses all those 10 diffe= rent places? i never checked, does freebsd-update tell that pkgbase is comi= ng? does buildworld, maybe installworld tell that? that i actually used and= i don't see it=2E because those are like places where you see it=2E i can'= t recall if ports warned of pkgng coming soon? i also prefer if those messa= ges would include plans and not final decisions to make a change=2E i haven= 't tries pkgbase myself, maybe i will, maybe i don't=2E unsure what fix is= =2E maybe start putting things right into where everyone sees it=2E unsure= =2E and if i were you, whoever leads pkgbase initiative in "high castle" (i= t does feel like this!), i would not let users delete base with -af=2E it's= rather unusual anyway and i don't think not deleting would get people as m= ad as deleting stuff=2E i can't recall what was it, was it repo manager on = linux distro or something else but something wanted you to write whole sent= ence, observing caps and so on=2E then it executed that irreversible operat= ion=2E in my systems, i've been configured things to ask date & times when = i really wanted to not do anything stupid=2E that would get somebody's brai= n working and maybe they interrupt their autopilot mode if they didn't actu= ally want it=2E trust me, deleting freebsd-kernel, removing freebsd-bin, pk= g-bootstrap=2E=2E=2E isn't what you want to see, then it's too late=2E and = yes, add echos to installworld end and freebsd-update if it's not there alr= eady because that's what people see On August 7, 2025 1:21:32 AM GMT+03:00, vermaden w= rote: >So You still do not understand =2E=2E=2E > >The pkg(8) command works fine - its just NOT SUPPOSE to DESTROY most of t= he FreeBSD Base System - because FreeBSD is not Linux to allow shit like th= at =2E=2E=2E > > > > >Temat: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature >Data: 2025-08-07 0:13 >Nadawca: "Ceri Davies" <ceri@submonkey=2Enet> >Adresat: "vermaden" <vermaden@interia=2Epl>;=20 >DW: FreeBSD-pkgbase@freebsd=2Eorg; freebsd-pkg@freebsd=2Eorg; freebsd-cur= rent@freebsd=2Eorg; freebsd-stable@freebsd=2Eorg;=20 > > > >>> On 6 Aug 2025, at 22:54, vermaden wrote: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BF >>>>=20 >>>> No, it has the same behaviour=2E >>>=20 >>> English is not my primary language so I will try to explain in more >simple words as you probably did not understood=2E >>>=20 >>> NOPE=2E >>>=20 >>> It DOES NOT has the same behavior=2E >>=20 >> In each case it forcibly deletes all the packages from your system, >like you asked=2E >>=20 >> I understood you fine, I just disagree that this is a shocking result >when you have specified the =E2=80=9Call=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cforce=E2= =80=9D flags=2E In fact it is >exactly what that command is documented to do and therefore is very far >from a violation of the principle of least astonishment=2E >>=20 >> Ceri >>>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 > From nobody Thu Aug 7 11:09:52 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4byPZX2MkBz64863; Thu, 07 Aug 2025 11:09:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from DutchDaemon@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4byPZX1SvRz3h6l; Thu, 07 Aug 2025 11:09:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from DutchDaemon@FreeBSD.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; 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DutchDaemon - FreeBSD Forums Administrator To: Tomek CEDRO , vermaden Cc: Ceri Davies , "FreeBSD-pkgbase@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" Message-ID: <5d439128-fec3-4992-bb83-adcc440814cb@FreeBSD.org> Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature References: In-Reply-To: --------------p03EFxYj6hzl9OCZ7qEszXCh Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 T24gOC83LzIwMjUgMTo0MyBBTSwgVG9tZWsgQ0VEUk8gd3JvdGU6DQo+IE9uIFRodSwgQXVn IDcsIDIwMjUgYXQgMTI6MjHigK9BTSB2ZXJtYWRlbiA8dmVybWFkZW5AaW50ZXJpYS5wbD4g d3JvdGU6DQo+PiBTbyBZb3Ugc3RpbGwgZG8gbm90IHVuZGVyc3RhbmQgLi4uDQo+Pg0KPj4g VGhlIHBrZyg4KSBjb21tYW5kIHdvcmtzIGZpbmUgLSBpdHMganVzdCBOT1QgU1VQUE9TRSB0 byBERVNUUk9ZIG1vc3Qgb2YgdGhlIEZyZWVCU0QgQmFzZSBTeXN0ZW0gLSBiZWNhdXNlIEZy ZWVCU0QgaXMgbm90IExpbnV4IHRvIGFsbG93IHNoaXQgbGlrZSB0aGF0IC4uLg0KPiArMSA9 KQ0KPg0KPiBCYXNlIGFuZCBVc2VybGFuZCBzaG91bGQgYmUgY2xlYXJseSBzZXBhcmF0ZWQs 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List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8925b735-8398-4e0f-95f7-8d1115413013@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: From: Rick Macklem Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2025 07:32:10 -0700 X-Gm-Features: Ac12FXxR4xQikqeSLQl0scCpmFcFIvtijGXp7kRzxh7DQ-QoKEFgFlIJT2AhUGI Message-ID: Subject: Re: RFC: Does ZFS block cloning do this? To: Alexander Motin Cc: Alan Somers , FreeBSD CURRENT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.88 / 15.00]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.88)[-0.882]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20230601]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::52d:from]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROMTLD(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4byV4H3bQlz49pP X-Spamd-Bar: -- On Wed, Aug 6, 2025 at 9:46=E2=80=AFAM Rick Macklem wrote: > > On Wed, Aug 6, 2025 at 9:28=E2=80=AFAM Alexander Motin = wrote: > > > > Hi Rick, > > > > On 8/6/25 11:54, Rick Macklem wrote: > > > The difference for NFSv4.2 is that CLONE cannot return with partial c= ompletion. > > > (It assumes that a CLONE of any size will complete quickly enough for= an RPC. > > > Although there is no fixed limit, most assume an RPC reply should hap= pen in > > > 1-2sec at most. For COPY, the server can return with only part of the > > > copy done.) > > > It also includes alignment restrictions for the byte offsets. > > > > > > There is also the alignment restriction on CLONE. There doesn't seem = to be > > > an alignment restriction on zfs_clone_range(), but maybe it is buried= inside it? > > > I think adding yet another pathconf name to get the alignment require= ment and > > > whether or not the file system supports it would work without any VOP= change. > > > > The semantics you describe looks similar to Linux FICLONE/FICLONERANGE > > calls, that got adopted there before copy_file_range(). IIRC those > > effectively mean -- clone the file or its range as requested or fail. = I > > am not sure why some people prefer those calls, explicitly not allowing > > fallback to copy, but theere are some, for example Veeam backup fails i= f > > ZFS rejects the cloning request for any reason. For Linux ZFS has a > > separate code (see zpl_remap_file_range() and respective VFS calls) > > wrapping around block cloning to implement this semantics. FreeBSD doe= s > > not have the equivalent at this point, but it would be trivial to add, > > if we really need those VOPs. > For NFSv4.2 (which I suspect was modelled after what Linux does) the > difference is the ability to complete the entire "copy" within 1-2sec und= er > normal circumstances. > --> The NFSv4.2 CLONE operation requires this. > whereas for the NFSv4.2 COPY > --> It is allowed to return after a partial completion to adhere to the 1= -2sec > rule. This probably does not affect ZFS, but it is needed for > the "in general" > UFS case. > > There may be no difference needed for zfs_copy_file_range(). So long as i= t > never returns after a partial completion. If it does return after > partial completion, > a flag would indicate "must complete it". > > As for FreeBSD syscalls, I don't see a need for a new one. > I'll leave that up to others. > pathconf(2) could be used to determine if cloning is supported. > > Thanks for all the comments. It looks like a new "kernel only" flag for > VOP_COPY_FILE_RANGE() and a new name for VOP_PATHCONF() > should be all that is needed. So, this seems almost too easy? What I am thinking of (and should be easy to do in the next few days for 15.0) is: - Define a new pathconf variable _PC_CLONE_BLKSIZE which returns the blksize for cloning or 0 if cloning is not supported. - Define a new flag for copy_file_range() called COPY_FILE_RANGE_CLONE which, if set, would require that the entire copy be completed via clonin= g (no partial copy allowed) or return ENOSYS if the file system does not support this. Expose this flag to userland in case any application really needs cloning= . The code changes outside of NFS are trivial. So, how does this sound? rick > > rick > > > > > -- > > Alexander Motin From nobody Thu Aug 7 15:02:32 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4byVl74LQZz64NGl; Thu, 07 Aug 2025 15:02:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Received: from smtpo49.interia.pl (smtpo49.interia.pl [217.74.67.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4byVl229lLz3HCP; Thu, 07 Aug 2025 15:02:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2025 17:02:32 +0200 From: vermaden Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature To: Daniel Morante , "stable@freebsd.org" , "FreeBSD-pkgbase@freebsd.org" , freebsd-current X-Mailer: interia.pl/pf09 In-Reply-To: <73c44099-baa7-48b2-b486-1ffaf3017820@morante.net> References: <5d439128-fec3-4992-bb83-adcc440814cb@FreeBSD.org> <73c44099-baa7-48b2-b486-1ffaf3017820@morante.net> X-Originating-IP: 45.148.42.1 Message-Id: List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=interia.pl; s=biztos; t=1754578955; bh=iLzUltVCBZP1zYTI1L/4iqOOBIgYmOscK7KXQONXAP4=; h=Date:From:Subject:To:Message-Id:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=MdZLGlmfZH3CV6YMcsUK23pXHpXYH2CknqBh7iE6zqRccShXN+Nt/0IOIgzPiUb6L 98C4jZsRdvogL04AVEMW7r+o688BYdKX4DIzzs3WDmnEOwRZoGlY8AZ40YH7gq45ED lXAOtxNeO79LqJ0VBbZh4Jfu5SNalvyRQUtoHgaA= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4byVl229lLz3HCP X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN_FAIL(0.00)[49.67.74.217.asn.rspamd.com:query timed out] > Why should we use the `pkg` tooling for this? > Why not instead have a dedicated set of tooling > for managing the base operating system? That is what I proposed here with pkgbase(8) command: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-pkgbase/2025-July/000596.html In point (1) of course. Temat: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Data: 2025-08-07 16:58 Nadawca: "Daniel Morante" <daniel@morante.net> Adresat: stable@freebsd.org; FreeBSD-pkgbase@freebsd.org; "freebsd-current"= <freebsd-current@freebsd.org>;=20 >=20 >> I gave this more thought.  Maybe the problem here is the approach?  Why=20 > should we use the `pkg` tooling for this? >=20 > Why not instead have a dedicated set of tooling for managing the base=20 > operating system? We kind of already have that and it works well with=20 > the FreeBSD philosophy.  They are called `bsdinstall`, and=20 > `freebsd-update`.  Can we simply convert/repurpose (and maybe even=20 > merge) and rename those tools to handle managing the operating system in=20 > a package like style.  We just call it "freebsd-setup" or whatever.&= nbsp; The=20 > point being that `pkg` is for ports/packages for third party software=20 > and `freebsd-setup` is for the operating system.  The two should never=20 > cross paths. >=20 > On 8/7/2025 7:09 AM, DutchDaemon - FreeBSD Forums Administrator wrote: >> On 8/7/2025 1:43 AM, Tomek CEDRO wrote: >>> On Thu, Aug 7, 2025 at 12:21=E2=80=AFAM vermaden=20 wrote: >>>> So You still do not understand ... >>>> >>>> The pkg(8) command works fine - its just NOT SUPPOSE to DESTROY most=20 >>>> of the FreeBSD Base System - because FreeBSD is not Linux to allow >>>> shit like that ... >>> +1 =3D) >>> >>> Base and Userland should be clearly separated, as it was, as it is, no >>> matter how it will be organized internally (i.e. modular base) :-) >>> >>> Maybe its worth thinking about some sort of standard minimal fallback >>> environment (rescue?) when base gets broken for any reason (i.e. >>> broken pkgbase, broken modules, fs corruption, broken hardware, >>> accident) to either restore last working configuration or recreate >>> defaults with/from what can be saved? :-) >> >> >> Maybe this would be a good time to reserve the -b / --base flags in=20 >> pkg(8) .. ? >> >=20 >=20 From nobody Thu Aug 7 17:22:41 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4byYry309cz64WHD for ; Thu, 07 Aug 2025 17:22:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asomers@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ej1-f54.google.com (mail-ej1-f54.google.com [209.85.218.54]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4byYrx2D00z3drT; Thu, 07 Aug 2025 17:22:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asomers@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of asomers@gmail.com designates 209.85.218.54 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=asomers@gmail.com; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed), No valid DKIM" header.from=freebsd.org (policy=none) Received: by mail-ej1-f54.google.com with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-af93381a1d2so213844566b.3; Thu, 07 Aug 2025 10:22:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1754587375; x=1755192175; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=Ywbto1+S0h3OW0+V4puHs4Wh4gIbvrvzTrOQ7sl5brc=; b=qMAnKxgprABCPbUKt3QKVgU67xjAgKdCBnI1jMLyBmMY4KOZ3AjhNYh47MLEEnn9G8 YTZlUpxPcyV2WSXlI7rl6DGjeixRfoIAqQ0g/UiDeoEIaDQ/5/AgkAGDinZnl6Npabtq C2ISCbABbaKahPQ0MG1+w0Ei0OeEoqdIirtMwmOjnt8v3oGFUtX1SlWaNph7U+JJx4oZ LBiNhA5/Gdok638F8VHH6mBXSlCD0IH4p+Q6/bWM+l0LXk81FSX7c8FIAiclcpYE13mn gDmJwKLxPi3atjuBD8O+1HfAxLzqwkZlFW04+d/XCqeB/i11dUZ8UhcWI/c+rM/ZU5iU GyXA== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCWpMBng4wn9TwkIzpoJmyDEmDfc+OBLcO3gEeQd+hraU18AJpbzypiswKn6VDkrYtVK9WjMhY85n215JXipGsw=@freebsd.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxYQV43NAxGYv0UsrYxphLtt/GlGBhNcje3q43SsBdnsovCFfOi gXUteUN5cGlEqi2PyQh1u8pPI1EvV4X0PILko7XLycBtfstv1IMnQ2ym0zJdbUEAV13VlMOcnCI g6spsoVAG/DA3IdkyxhmO2khiNjSVH2pUBQ== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncv53pS6mHoG5BE/fTRORT7fbZuC+60GnmoJI30j9j8/506hdnkdn7cm6wrcnGz f/UwZmHx5Di9kh4kGfl1FVE9/hUN1vO0gaHLmIsyfJDp+xuTg50vhMBZXlMGUzOKpjdYHQUO1lh mxfHZBUzQh4qQEP/+fXFfMJpYLjTutwp0FXn9rkuxqOlxtOsTxZwrubOybunKib7OAQAMECZRxu fMHV8Y= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFhPCGboyN0Xro10MW6BdSTeb6FDR6CT/pi1yFqApOKdbl5WOlz9vOZ31qAxr/wJb08t0Qt2vXyLa/YR/za5nA= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:c2d8:b0:af6:3194:f024 with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-af9c1c86c88mr57830666b.13.1754587374982; Thu, 07 Aug 2025 10:22:54 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8925b735-8398-4e0f-95f7-8d1115413013@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: From: Alan Somers Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2025 11:22:41 -0600 X-Gm-Features: Ac12FXyKaOYkNjAZOYlGZl491WzkNtOsNgRyE7DQ6ieQIv0QX6usUgNZ7UL9iAE Message-ID: Subject: Re: RFC: Does ZFS block cloning do this? To: Rick Macklem Cc: Alexander Motin , FreeBSD CURRENT Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000369c75063bc9b5b2" X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.03 / 15.00]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.997]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.97)[0.969]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[asomers@freebsd.org,asomers@gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(-0.10)[209.85.218.54:from]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[freebsd.org : SPF not aligned (relaxed), No valid DKIM,none]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[asomers@freebsd.org,asomers@gmail.com]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[asomers]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[209.85.218.54:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4byYrx2D00z3drT X-Spamd-Bar: / --000000000000369c75063bc9b5b2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Aug 7, 2025 at 8:32=E2=80=AFAM Rick Macklem wrote: > On Wed, Aug 6, 2025 at 9:46=E2=80=AFAM Rick Macklem > wrote: > > > > On Wed, Aug 6, 2025 at 9:28=E2=80=AFAM Alexander Motin wrote: > > > > > > Hi Rick, > > > > > > On 8/6/25 11:54, Rick Macklem wrote: > > > > The difference for NFSv4.2 is that CLONE cannot return with partial > completion. > > > > (It assumes that a CLONE of any size will complete quickly enough > for an RPC. > > > > Although there is no fixed limit, most assume an RPC reply should > happen in > > > > 1-2sec at most. For COPY, the server can return with only part of t= he > > > > copy done.) > > > > It also includes alignment restrictions for the byte offsets. > > > > > > > > There is also the alignment restriction on CLONE. There doesn't see= m > to be > > > > an alignment restriction on zfs_clone_range(), but maybe it is > buried inside it? > > > > I think adding yet another pathconf name to get the alignment > requirement and > > > > whether or not the file system supports it would work without any > VOP change. > > > > > > The semantics you describe looks similar to Linux FICLONE/FICLONERANG= E > > > calls, that got adopted there before copy_file_range(). IIRC those > > > effectively mean -- clone the file or its range as requested or fail. > I > > > am not sure why some people prefer those calls, explicitly not allowi= ng > > > fallback to copy, but theere are some, for example Veeam backup fails > if > > > ZFS rejects the cloning request for any reason. For Linux ZFS has a > > > separate code (see zpl_remap_file_range() and respective VFS calls) > > > wrapping around block cloning to implement this semantics. FreeBSD > does > > > not have the equivalent at this point, but it would be trivial to add= , > > > if we really need those VOPs. > > For NFSv4.2 (which I suspect was modelled after what Linux does) the > > difference is the ability to complete the entire "copy" within 1-2sec > under > > normal circumstances. > > --> The NFSv4.2 CLONE operation requires this. > > whereas for the NFSv4.2 COPY > > --> It is allowed to return after a partial completion to adhere to the > 1-2sec > > rule. This probably does not affect ZFS, but it is needed for > > the "in general" > > UFS case. > > > > There may be no difference needed for zfs_copy_file_range(). So long as > it > > never returns after a partial completion. If it does return after > > partial completion, > > a flag would indicate "must complete it". > > > > As for FreeBSD syscalls, I don't see a need for a new one. > > I'll leave that up to others. > > pathconf(2) could be used to determine if cloning is supported. > > > > Thanks for all the comments. It looks like a new "kernel only" flag for > > VOP_COPY_FILE_RANGE() and a new name for VOP_PATHCONF() > > should be all that is needed. > So, this seems almost too easy? > > What I am thinking of (and should be easy to do in the next few days > for 15.0) is: > - Define a new pathconf variable _PC_CLONE_BLKSIZE which returns > the blksize for cloning or 0 if cloning is not supported. > - Define a new flag for copy_file_range() called COPY_FILE_RANGE_CLONE > which, if set, would require that the entire copy be completed via > cloning > (no partial copy allowed) or return ENOSYS if the file system does not > support this. > Expose this flag to userland in case any application really needs > cloning. > The code changes outside of NFS are trivial. > > So, how does this sound? ric Yes, I think that would work. --000000000000369c75063bc9b5b2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Aug 7, 2025 at 8:32=E2=80=AFAM Rick M= acklem <rick.macklem@gmail.com= > wrote:
= On Wed, Aug 6, 2025 at 9:46=E2=80=AFAM Rick Macklem <rick.macklem@gmail.com> wro= te:
>
> On Wed, Aug 6, 2025 at 9:28=E2=80=AFAM Alexander Motin <mav@freebsd.org> wrote: > >
> > Hi Rick,
> >
> > On 8/6/25 11:54, Rick Macklem wrote:
> > > The difference for NFSv4.2 is that CLONE cannot return with = partial completion.
> > > (It assumes that a CLONE of any size will complete quickly e= nough for an RPC.
> > > Although there is no fixed limit, most assume an RPC reply s= hould happen in
> > > 1-2sec at most. For COPY, the server can return with only pa= rt of the
> > > copy done.)
> > > It also includes alignment restrictions for the byte offsets= .
> > >
> > > There is also the alignment restriction on CLONE. There does= n't seem to be
> > > an alignment restriction on zfs_clone_range(), but maybe it = is buried inside it?
> > > I think adding yet another pathconf name to get the alignmen= t requirement and
> > > whether or not the file system supports it would work withou= t any VOP change.
> >
> > The semantics you describe looks similar to Linux FICLONE/FICLONE= RANGE
> > calls, that got adopted there before copy_file_range().=C2=A0 IIR= C those
> > effectively mean -- clone the file or its range as requested or f= ail.=C2=A0 I
> > am not sure why some people prefer those calls, explicitly not al= lowing
> > fallback to copy, but theere are some, for example Veeam backup f= ails if
> > ZFS rejects the cloning request for any reason.=C2=A0 For Linux Z= FS has a
> > separate code (see zpl_remap_file_range() and respective VFS call= s)
> > wrapping around block cloning to implement this semantics.=C2=A0 = FreeBSD does
> > not have the equivalent at this point, but it would be trivial to= add,
> > if we really need those VOPs.
> For NFSv4.2 (which I suspect was modelled after what Linux does) the > difference is the ability to complete the entire "copy" with= in 1-2sec under
> normal circumstances.
> --> The NFSv4.2 CLONE operation requires this.
> whereas for the NFSv4.2 COPY
> --> It is allowed to return after a partial completion to adhere to= the 1-2sec
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0rule. This probably does not affect ZFS, but= it is needed for
> the "in general"
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0UFS case.
>
> There may be no difference needed for zfs_copy_file_range(). So long a= s it
> never returns after a partial completion. If it does return after
> partial completion,
> a flag would indicate "must complete it".
>
> As for FreeBSD syscalls, I don't see a need for a new one.
> I'll leave that up to others.
> pathconf(2) could be used to determine if cloning is supported.
>
> Thanks for all the comments. It looks like a new "kernel only&quo= t; flag for
> VOP_COPY_FILE_RANGE() and a new name for VOP_PATHCONF()
> should be all that is needed.
So, this seems almost too easy?

What I am thinking of (and should be easy to do in the next few days
for 15.0) is:
- Define a new pathconf variable _PC_CLONE_BLKSIZE which returns
=C2=A0 the blksize for cloning or 0 if cloning is not supported.
- Define a new flag for copy_file_range() called COPY_FILE_RANGE_CLONE
=C2=A0 which, if set, would require that the entire copy be completed via c= loning
=C2=A0 (no partial copy allowed) or return ENOSYS if the file system does n= ot
=C2=A0 support this.
=C2=A0 Expose this flag to userland in case any application really needs cl= oning.
The code changes outside of NFS are trivial.

So, how does this sound? ric

Yes, I think t= hat would work.=C2=A0
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Should this go into tools/build/mk/OptionalObsoleteFiles.inc? And if so, is the path the one under /usr/obj for the build or is the path just usr.sbin or ??? rick From nobody Thu Aug 7 23:05:16 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4byjRy131Hz63dhh for ; Thu, 07 Aug 2025 23:05:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4byjRx6rwNz3LkN; Thu, 07 Aug 2025 23:05:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754607918; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=jfe+7nnD4KZereq0l5Fw/kTmLLcjlqNkjtkoLViP6R0=; b=t4yBTMGdfuUHxQBPiATr3hjy0GvVf/zo5H/WqfYo/v5yxUGg3B5Hu+DSp8MSGDdUnfQTiY pWF3vb0McLqUfUsVXybE8tbWBNfEWopsRqDhJ3bwI4OTK/6i/8mq9uiAT0pumdui9h1lB/ D80t3hnXfSDeI2Ucuigdr/GOCXaNaKjk/YOig1Y0VOoNX2cIucM/TPaL9YC6meJIzxcVJB 4luluB3Q4lxY3uWIoblntI8lsX1EUwYHw+kk39Tvyc1aSNgiDLyj7dsKhM+XHfLV+i3pt8 Oh6Dkmo1/Q2yTvCEtowmLtioU6K+IvmAt0ClA9uvJuY7dplcLXB/VKDO9+THnA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754607918; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=jfe+7nnD4KZereq0l5Fw/kTmLLcjlqNkjtkoLViP6R0=; b=Ti/iUGh+7nDEHX+f2NXHBX9QR2+HSSqzCQkana44nVU6jkiPXTw2gYeSzmIx0TRx1+hKWd ExvwcBcjCAYOn3HamKXPuYkoDh8IPaTEqzuco9MJyU1ne2ogvH4D0BB/VBhZpo2P5wjqC8 0y9SIsgJhqnK6C/2AraSqfN57r6OfxB9LnWLCkSEV47o3BbZ84+iJJMT9k2ozj2mLDIseP gzLN80Xv8mxckGlcbsR3TQ4SuJzghJOBs1UalPH9tF7WLua499TNMraAHU58GPMgw0MHaX 378XXI1GnU8+rc9E2sDNDDR5V8H/zBCedD5cPXsd3Yr1yiXv6U2CD+t9TVRpqg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1754607918; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=Y/cYO0iqfUJMyXxwo1hLFjOcOXRKpErx6RlKvuecYMdRZIO3rwEWHL2/zkLPrXIhOiOtG0 G9gSgrdqv9/NiXsC14TFeo//zXLj5KvD6YdjYou1ostGdkxzPLvRJobs89vzt+lF0qNP39 IQWIJSDlAJPrLG6RNNcX/PjoxgAcbcKKc/sYstx/+VS9fh4RhgL3XV8p8edAv42bk6mTg4 s6G42MZ+CeLqoyYKW0+royDZW6JgrR0bN3DJPPyjnjY0hcaCuBcYfJL3w9wwHRalvzPMbk LaEi4HZZqCkn443AsApR3YyOdqhm0LnWA3nLPqQsApeoNZgsoPXhbx5fOoMH8Q== Received: from ltc.des.dev (unknown [IPv6:2a01:e0a:c54:bed0:922e:16ff:fef1:acef]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: des) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4byjRx5JhTzLJ; Thu, 07 Aug 2025 23:05:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) Received: by ltc.des.dev (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 0C7A912160; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 01:05:16 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Rick Macklem Cc: FreeBSD CURRENT Subject: Re: RFC: Dealing with optionally built files like gssd during installworld In-Reply-To: (Rick Macklem's message of "Thu, 7 Aug 2025 15:57:19 -0700") References: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2025 01:05:16 +0200 Message-ID: <86v7my4tsj.fsf@ltc.des.dev> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rick Macklem writes: > With my recent commit, the Makefile in usr.sbin only > builds a gssd if MK_KERBEROS_SUPPORT !=3D "no". > > Should this go into tools/build/mk/OptionalObsoleteFiles.inc? > > And if so, is the path the one under /usr/obj for the build > or is the path just usr.sbin or ??? Yes, and it's the installed path. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@FreeBSD.org From nobody Fri Aug 8 01:20:31 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bymbh17mkz63pRm; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 01:27:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Received: from smtpo49.interia.pl (smtpo49.interia.pl [217.74.67.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bymbf2RYjz44qP; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 01:27:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=interia.pl header.s=biztos header.b=ReNWSDBR; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of vermaden@interia.pl designates 217.74.67.49 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=vermaden@interia.pl; dmarc=pass (policy=quarantine) header.from=interia.pl Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2025 03:20:31 +0200 From: vermaden Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature To: Sulev-Madis Silber , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: interia.pl/pf09 In-Reply-To: References: X-Originating-IP: 45.148.42.1 Message-Id: List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=interia.pl; s=biztos; t=1754616034; bh=YpDS4FlFc7njYt8gxttIoj0/6lF/JtLAk8cs/8gMxAw=; h=Date:From:Subject:To:Message-Id:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=ReNWSDBRiypYNPpM6NEXF2CFjQ5xw/69v6w3M0t+yZ8GKXu/GFPxZgbEhYDva4q9X +OuCLoLOImUoDfSi9ZDAp3n9Vr7waLz+WEMp5jy+3I3Ss69FCY/qqv78TdiaO6YIBN U/xktmOHyr3btCkZIKq4kI+EjWmVfRd/wN6toQLs= X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.71 / 15.00]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[interia.pl:dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.89)[0.891]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[interia.pl,quarantine]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[interia.pl:s=biztos]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:217.74.64.0/22]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_VERYGOOD(-0.20)[217.74.67.49:from]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.10)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; SUSPICIOUS_AUTH_ORIGIN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16138, ipnet:217.74.64.0/22, country:PL]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[interia.pl:+]; HAS_XOIP(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org,freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org,freebsd-stable@freebsd.org]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[interia.pl]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[interia.pl] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bymbf2RYjz44qP X-Spamd-Bar: -- OK, Colin Percival just announced 15.0-PRERELEASE - yet the PKGBASE concept= - besides 'kinda working' - does not holds to the POLA principle at all - = and if anyone will chose to use PKGBASE instead of 'classic' install the 'p= kg delete -af' will not only delete all the third party packages but will a= lso WIPE almost ENTIRE BASE SYSTEM of FreeBSD ... this is not unacceptable = to say the least. My 'vote' here does not changed. Lets keep pkg(8) for third party packages with: - /etc/pkg - /usr/local/etc/pkg - /var/db/pkg Lets have pkgbase(8) for FreeBSD Base System PKGBASE with: - /etc/pkgbase - /usr/local/etc/pkgbase - /var/db/pkgbase Its literally the same 'separation' as the Base System for binaries: - /bin - /usr/bin - /sbin - /usr/sbin And /usr/local PREFIX for third party packages as: - /usr/local/bin - /usr/local/sbin Regards, vermaden Temat: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Data: 2025-08-07 2:10 Nadawca: "Sulev-Madis Silber" <freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.p= ri.ee> Adresat: freebsd-current@freebsd.org;=20 >=20 >> what linux distros do here? extra options to avoid deleting the basic things like kernel and minimal userland utils? if you happen to make way too broad package deletion. i don't think linux sysadmins want it either. even if you consider linux moving faster and with less seatbelts ("allow shit like that" (c) vermaden). it's not pkg fault it does wipe system clean if you asked it. also, des@ reminded me that pkg replaced older tracking system 12 years ago. yet, i see pkg production versions being released just recently with a bug that user immediately notices. it was fixed because oops humans make mistakes. but it would be a horror if pkg does those things when it manages the entire system. granted, you can always boot at least external media when any "nuclear" pkg update comes out. this one wasn't but... and one could say that pkgbase is extensively discussed everywhere. but we still have discussions like this here. even fights. what if you miss all those? i never knew 32bit is on the way out until i happened to randomly read that warning from kernel boot log. there are number of those things in fbsd. happened earlier, happened lately. maybe it's inevitable. were you scared to install new major version like 5 or 13 right away because who knows what will happen? luckily there are 2, sometimes 3 majors to choose from should some of them include rushed in late changes that turned out to be buggy. it feels like it got worse lately. i mean more changes, more breaks. i don't know why this isn't confined to current or stable. those are annoying type of changes. hopefully pkgbase will not be switched on before it's done. but pkg for ports still has issues and it's now default package manager here. feels like too much hassle. there are many changes, i mean. good, but extra fuzz. drm for gpus, wifi driver changes, wifi adapter firmware loading changes. all with somebody complaining that (s)he didn't know there was breaking change. i don't have had reason to run -af and not checking either but if you had habit of doing that, it would be similar to rm ~ catching the / along too. unsure what the fix is. (userland) utils and kernel printing it out to console? over longer period of time? i mean i could understand that change was discussed "everywhere", meetings, mailing lists. it would still be missed. if i make something, which i only tried once, and publish it, i would never expect them to be aware of changes i make. because release notes, changelogs, those don't get attention. and you can still miss stuff. i once told that correct procedure is to check everything throughly and then upgrade, but i have passed this myself often. and have gotten "fallouts" too. in fbsd the only thing i would need to stand back, squint and duck is when booting new current. when pkgbase gets out in installer, i expect it to still have issues and i would rather stand back and watch this "nuke" going off. because it does make radical changes. one of most wtf is that now one needs to deal /etc in new ways. and if those differ from mergemaster or etcupdate, it would make somebody mad. perhaps even worse than i could. in my mind, changes are good. if they are reasonable. and known. probably knowing is biggest issue. what if one misses all those 10 different places? i never checked, does freebsd-update tell that pkgbase is coming? does buildworld, maybe installworld tell that? that i actually used and i don't see it. because those are like places where you see it. i can't recall if ports warned of pkgng coming soon? i also prefer if those messages would include plans and not final decisions to make a change. i haven't tries pkgbase myself, maybe i will, maybe i don't. unsure what fix is. maybe start putting things right into where everyone sees it. unsure. and if i were you, whoever leads pkgbase initiative in "high castle" (it does feel like this!), i would not let users delete base with -af. it's rather unusual anyway and i don't think not deleting would get people as mad as deleting stuff. i can't recall what was it, was it repo manager on linux distro or something else but something wanted you to write whole sentence, observing caps and so on. then it executed that irreversible operation. in my systems, i've been configured things to ask date & tim= es when i really wanted to not do anything stupid. that would get somebody's brain working and maybe they interrupt their autopilot mode if they didn't actually want it. trust me, deleting freebsd-kernel, removing freebsd-bin, pkg-bootstrap... isn't what you want to see, then it's too late. and yes, add echos to installworld end and freebsd-update if it's not there already because that's what people see >=20 >=20 >=20 > On August 7, 2025 1:21:32 AM GMT+03:00, vermaden=20 wrote: >>So You still do not understand ... >> >>The pkg(8) command works fine - its just NOT SUPPOSE to DESTROY most of the FreeBSD Base System - because FreeBSD is not Linux to allow shit like that ... >> >> >> >> >>Temat: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature >>Data: 2025-08-07 0:13 >>Nadawca: "Ceri Davies" <ceri@submonkey.net> >>Adresat: "vermaden" <vermaden@interia.pl>;=20 >>DW: FreeBSD-pkgbase@freebsd.org; freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org; freebsd-current@freebsd.org; freebsd-stable@freebsd.org;=20 >> >> >> >>>> On 6 Aug 2025, at 22:54, vermaden wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> =EF=BB=BF >>>>>=20 >>>>> No, it has the same behaviour. >>>>=20 >>>> English is not my primary language so I will try to explain in more >>simple words as you probably did not understood. >>>>=20 >>>> NOPE. >>>>=20 >>>> It DOES NOT has the same behavior. >>>=20 >>> In each case it forcibly deletes all the packages from your system, >>like you asked. >>>=20 >>> I understood you fine, I just disagree that this is a shocking result >>when you have specified the =E2=80=9Call=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cforce=E2= =80=9D flags. In fact it is >>exactly what that command is documented to do and therefore is very far >>from a violation of the principle of least astonishment. >>>=20 >>> Ceri >>>>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >> >=20 >=20 >=20 From nobody Fri Aug 8 01:28:50 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bymdg2pjZz63pXV; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 01:28:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from void@f-m.fm) Received: from fout-a8-smtp.messagingengine.com (fout-a8-smtp.messagingengine.com [103.168.172.151]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bymdf1Gltz47D3; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 01:28:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from void@f-m.fm) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=f-m.fm header.s=fm3 header.b=h76rnai4; 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Thu, 7 Aug 2025 21:28:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 02:28:50 +0100 From: void To: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.10 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.50)[-0.503]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[f-m.fm,none]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[f-m.fm:s=fm3,messagingengine.com:s=fm3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:103.168.172.128/27]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[103.168.172.151:from]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[f-m.fm]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[f-m.fm]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[f-m.fm:+,messagingengine.com:+]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org,freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org]; ASN(0.00)[asn:151847, ipnet:103.168.172.0/24, country:AU]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[messagingengine.com:dkim] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bymdf1Gltz47D3 X-Spamd-Bar: --- On Thu, Aug 07, 2025 at 01:43:28AM +0200, Tomek CEDRO wrote: >+1 =) > >Base and Userland should be clearly separated, as it was, as it is, no >matter how it will be organized internally (i.e. modular base) :-) +1 here also. Why not avoid breaking POLA by having a differently-named binary for pkgbase management? Different switches, too. -- From nobody Fri Aug 8 02:14:12 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bynf900cYz63v2G; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 02:14:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Received: from smtpo69.interia.pl (smtpo69.interia.pl [217.74.67.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bynf81Wb9z4GYK; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 02:14:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=interia.pl header.s=biztos header.b=rQz59lW7; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of vermaden@interia.pl designates 217.74.67.69 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=vermaden@interia.pl; dmarc=pass (policy=quarantine) header.from=interia.pl Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2025 04:14:12 +0200 From: vermaden Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature To: Sulev-Madis Silber , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org" , "freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org" X-Mailer: interia.pl/pf09 In-Reply-To: References: X-Originating-IP: 45.148.42.1 Message-Id: List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=interia.pl; s=biztos; t=1754619255; bh=3PZAjWJG5fOBfTo7E0Z23Bh6Ue0nQ/jR3dx6AmtfUAk=; h=Date:From:Subject:To:Message-Id:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=rQz59lW7DxOEAogz/jcSX2wV+CSHy2DpCabQcflnIBAApUFtJ2E60OMZeFsHPLNSK NgRUespiBgDg5XT2mExXHQAKjFGKAXDW849zT1aT9PjtWdNhvJfYG/B0bcKO1W50rD 6DQwmlr220Dg23uepeOsIlSJI5FgjGpb1TZsH7x8= X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.60 / 15.00]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[interia.pl:dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[interia.pl,quarantine]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:217.74.64.0/22:c]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_VERYGOOD(-0.20)[217.74.67.69:from]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[interia.pl:s=biztos]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.10)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; SUSPICIOUS_AUTH_ORIGIN(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16138, ipnet:217.74.64.0/22, country:PL]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[interia.pl:+]; HAS_XOIP(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org,freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org,freebsd-stable@freebsd.org]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[interia.pl]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[interia.pl] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bynf81Wb9z4GYK X-Spamd-Bar: ---- One small 'patch' ... - this is not unacceptable to say the least. + this is unacceptable to say the least. Temat: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Data: 2025-08-08 3:37 Nadawca: "vermaden" <vermaden@interia.pl> Adresat: "Sulev-Madis Silber" <freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.p= ri.ee>; "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" <freebsd-current@freebsd.org>; fre= ebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org; freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org;=20 >=20 >> OK, Colin Percival just announced 15.0-PRERELEASE - yet the PKGBASE concept - besides 'kinda working' - does not holds to the POLA principle at all - and if anyone will chose to use PKGBASE instead of 'classic' install the 'pkg delete -af' will not only delete all the third party packages but will also WIPE almost ENTIRE BASE SYSTEM of FreeBSD ... this is not unacceptable to say the least. >=20 > My 'vote' here does not changed. >=20 > Lets keep pkg(8) for third party packages with: > - /etc/pkg > - /usr/local/etc/pkg > - /var/db/pkg >=20 > Lets have pkgbase(8) for FreeBSD Base System PKGBASE with: > - /etc/pkgbase > - /usr/local/etc/pkgbase > - /var/db/pkgbase >=20 > Its literally the same 'separation' as the Base System for binaries: > - /bin > - /usr/bin > - /sbin > - /usr/sbin >=20 > And /usr/local PREFIX for third party packages as: > - /usr/local/bin > - /usr/local/sbin >=20 > Regards, > vermaden >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Temat: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature > Data: 2025-08-07 2:10 > Nadawca: "Sulev-Madis Silber" <freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.pri.ee> > Adresat: freebsd-current@freebsd.org;=20 >=20 >>=20 >>> what linux distros do here? extra options to avoid > deleting the basic things like kernel and minimal userland utils? if you > happen to make way too broad package deletion. i don't think linux > sysadmins want it either. even if you consider linux moving faster and with > less seatbelts ("allow shit like that" (c) vermaden). it's not pkg fault it > does wipe system clean if you asked it. also, des@ reminded me that pkg > replaced older tracking system 12 years ago. yet, i see pkg production > versions being released just recently with a bug that user immediately > notices. it was fixed because oops humans make mistakes. but it would be a > horror if pkg does those things when it manages the entire system. granted, > you can always boot at least external media when any "nuclear" pkg update > comes out. this one wasn't but... and one could say that pkgbase is > extensively discussed everywhere. but we still have discussions like this > here. even fights. what if you miss all those? i never knew 32bit is on the > way out until i happened to randomly read that warning from kernel boot > log. there are number of those things in fbsd. happened earlier, happened > lately. maybe it's inevitable. were you scared to install new major version > like 5 or 13 right away because who knows what will happen? luckily there > are 2, sometimes 3 majors to choose from should some of them include rushed > in late changes that turned out to be buggy. it feels like it got worse > lately. i mean more changes, more breaks. i don't know why this isn't > confined to current or stable. those are annoying type of changes. > hopefully pkgbase will not be switched on before it's done. but pkg for > ports still has issues and it's now default package manager here. feels > like too much hassle. there are many changes, i mean. good, but extra fuzz. > drm for gpus, wifi driver changes, wifi adapter firmware loading changes. > all with somebody complaining that (s)he didn't know there was breaking > change. i don't have had reason to run -af and not checking either but if > you had habit of doing that, it would be similar to rm ~ catching the / > along too. unsure what the fix is. (userland) utils and kernel printing it > out to console? over longer period of time? i mean i could understand that > change was discussed "everywhere", meetings, mailing lists. it would still > be missed. if i make something, which i only tried once, and publish it, i > would never expect them to be aware of changes i make. because release > notes, changelogs, those don't get attention. and you can still miss stuff. > i once told that correct procedure is to check everything throughly and > then upgrade, but i have passed this myself often. and have gotten > "fallouts" too. in fbsd the only thing i would need to stand back, squint > and duck is when booting new current. when pkgbase gets out in installer, > i expect it to still have issues and i would rather stand back and watch > this "nuke" going off. because it does make radical changes. one of most > wtf is that now one needs to deal /etc in new ways. and if those differ > from mergemaster or etcupdate, it would make somebody mad. perhaps even > worse than i could. in my mind, changes are good. if they are reasonable. > and known. probably knowing is biggest issue. what if one misses all those > 10 different places? i never checked, does freebsd-update tell that pkgbase > is coming? does buildworld, maybe installworld tell that? that i actually > used and i don't see it. because those are like places where you see it. i > can't recall if ports warned of pkgng coming soon? i also prefer if those > messages would include plans and not final decisions to make a change. i > haven't tries pkgbase myself, maybe i will, maybe i don't. unsure what fix > is. maybe start putting things right into where everyone sees it. unsure. > and if i were you, whoever leads pkgbase initiative in "high castle" (it > does feel like this!), i would not let users delete base with -af. it's > rather unusual anyway and i don't think not deleting would get people as > mad as deleting stuff. i can't recall what was it, was it repo manager on > linux distro or something else but something wanted you to write whole > sentence, observing caps and so on. then it executed that irreversible > operation. in my systems, i've been configured things to ask date & times > when i really wanted to not do anything stupid. that would get somebody's > brain working and maybe they interrupt their autopilot mode if they didn't > actually want it. trust me, deleting freebsd-kernel, removing freebsd-bin, > pkg-bootstrap... isn't what you want to see, then it's too late. and yes, > add echos to installworld end and freebsd-update if it's not there already > because that's what people see >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On August 7, 2025 1:21:32 AM GMT+03:00, vermaden=20 > wrote: >>>So You still do not understand ... >>> >>>The pkg(8) command works fine - its just NOT SUPPOSE to DESTROY most > of the FreeBSD Base System - because FreeBSD is not Linux to allow shit > like that ... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Temat: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature >>>Data: 2025-08-07 0:13 >>>Nadawca: "Ceri Davies" <ceri@submonkey.net> >>>Adresat: "vermaden" <vermaden@interia.pl>;=20 >>>DW: FreeBSD-pkgbase@freebsd.org; freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org; > freebsd-current@freebsd.org; freebsd-stable@freebsd.org;=20 >>> >>> >>> >>>>> On 6 Aug 2025, at 22:54, vermaden wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> =EF=BB=BF >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> No, it has the same behaviour. >>>>>=20 >>>>> English is not my primary language so I will try to explain in > more >>>simple words as you probably did not understood. >>>>>=20 >>>>> NOPE. >>>>>=20 >>>>> It DOES NOT has the same behavior. >>>>=20 >>>> In each case it forcibly deletes all the packages from your system, >>>like you asked. >>>>=20 >>>> I understood you fine, I just disagree that this is a shocking > result >>>when you have specified the =E2=80=9Call=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cforce=E2= =80=9D flags. In fact > it is >>>exactly what that command is documented to do and therefore is very > far >>>from a violation of the principle of least astonishment. >>>>=20 >>>> Ceri >>>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>> >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 From nobody Fri Aug 8 02:17:23 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bynjd4L9Yz63vhB; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 02:17:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cperciva@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bynjd24TRz4JTY; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 02:17:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cperciva@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; 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Fri, 08 Aug 2025 02:17:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cperciva@freebsd.org) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2025 19:17:23 -0700 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature To: vermaden , Sulev-Madis Silber , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org References: Content-Language: en-US From: Colin Percival Autocrypt: addr=cperciva@freebsd.org; keydata= xsFNBGWMSrYBEACdWRqDn3B3SKO7IG0/fGHYtfs26f3Q5QeAcasy1fQLniwGQWn5rlILhbCD K/jdNoDm5Zxq20eqyffoDNObCjnHgg4tGANdi+RmDy+7CDpE789H8dss9y7Pt5DlGGAXQQnt hxush3EYS/Ctprd9UUL/lzOOLOU1aNtzB84tNrJBtcJmL7OYHfyTSNFxvedqJrrasejIQOLI t/DQ89BPzz+vsKHz7FJPXh3fsVkzLA00DJYcfkgxyABfJNA7U6yMwd4DVSdx/SsvfIDMVXnu UXCXswo106WPZbYGlZPpq0wW6iibtTerJix+8AeuwXvl9O1p8yESK4ErkIxCnmghTSz+pdzj z/6xBRkdDM9VdZ0r+CzsaNXMpDOzFuKyjaiYBdgCLljbDnXIHFcqXenrZ7Xwkm09g/M4uVSh pIUG2RYa6tsHSQoGCp3f2RZv1znfViKQFbbL83QjtPA20AhseZSYbHp1FPhXyy9J0wkGL16L e99g6gdGeIRE82BZjBjKGDkoyDPq+oDRSFl8NtzmIKy+cfz00nViqcTF4bREXEawFGhlpO0X O9q8mijI9iFB6zaPBiSdJGBL5ML5qLTNCl8Zlf4m1TBvmRTqF/lzMHVXHidDoUhpSh/y3AFZ 1KrYc27ztJQywDJPJPWPbtY8YhFLFs377gfP8WldsZjzp8nvoQARAQABzSVDb2xpbiBQZXJj aXZhbCA8Y3BlcmNpdmFARnJlZUJTRC5vcmc+wsGRBBMBCAA7FiEEglY7hNBiDtwN+4ZBOJfy 4i5lrT8FAmWMSrYCGwMICwkNCAwHCwMFFQoJCAsFFgMCAQACHgUCF4AACgkQOJfy4i5lrT++ ig/9GZKdN2fHSyrANKZX38ivd7IX2wAYouqH9DrQM94W8IciaDLmarN4Pl9mY+aucMwQUSyp uNtKOJwKqhVVaalF9Zw0sRMH4CJuvT7vKCtZ3q1Okb7soRvFte4d+vXhvPxCvBFDA5JzU7Lg DR5eqqcvF1dN1OuCq16pl0zCOSH/Jr5ToE3LM3Av1KBGcZD7ZSzHRWsFjV5AOUJKySuA3GwJ e/jASQcQ0YfCnru8ntLmYg/2SKvZFlfthZiCBnAppMt4n4BUAw3TDvf10HIDtdneejawcbLS gofLCvGqumwbZYAMKWrFzT4+7KQvr0pOw8QD7EbxnB4f9hQ7UiVF8qWsyKU3iv6b5JLhbS59 ooKRccyOvdMLcVJ0ZdpqoxrNv061ZUqLL5RiWjBlc1qjBnDxeg5oyM0rT8WLftdgvyH6RQt0 KWngumBAT5AT2DUYL8Uz1490cqfO9K4yEGZAJB9XRVX1g2IWTOjae+0g9ZII+h91UngFz+Rz aKDeseKBbCGDOFXx1TqKiHl2g255ZnUxKYTlucFtguv4gDGBgEk4G9JaEWBw1IWblcKhxH7L 2vWsUhvwghjIxHdO/RkeIeHvSp4YZxCJ7a3TaJLYAlwYopfTKVzNhcDY5h5syEuoHjyJCxXK SyoJYAVu8Yl2KUhvOtOmL1VZ6xyHnpdMRWKJZ5jOwU0EZYxKtgEQANYfgbtUMVnhjxDHhWLp g5kLHK3YW0TfJKzpXqDB7NiqxHofn4OcbZnVC3MKggcbs9o1/UtsjnlsG8550PfiYkDXvPiO RJwgbGs6MGIDK797C6cnBLQ8xwBa9SL4cl5iQFnhWmt6vwnJ+an/cm5JpYves3wL7jV09qU9 57hkHXEUcl38r4FssZzVcLKPUVTa3Un+QGRTGDGe/f4ctjMaqv0ZCM+l2ixPhf/vqESrfSLv V/+T3dmtUfXjazO3SABvsHwxgGuTTYOlKoPCaebr+BRdqm0xeIShoIlhvTI8y4clchqx/Uxg UG5X2kvU13k3DS3Q8uLE4Et9x1CcZT6WGgBZSR6R0WfD0SDnzufNnRWJ0dEPA2MtJHE7+85R Vi9j/IgZV+y5Ur+bnPkjDG1s2SVciX5v9HQ0oilcBhvx0j5lGE9hhurD9F+fCvkr4KdbCknE 6Y8ce8pCNBUoB/DqibJivOzTk9K9MGB5x0De5TerIrFiaw3/mQC9nGeO9dtE7wvDJetWeoTq 4BEaCzpufNqbkpOaTQILr4V6Gp7M6v97g83TVAwZntz/q8ptwuKQPZ2JaSFLZn7oWUpYXA5s +SIODFHLn6iMoYpBQskHQjnj4lEPJadl4qj+ZKA89iDAKsniyoFXsbJe2CPbMS1yzBxKZq6K D/jpt7BOnuHr/JrXABEBAAHCwXYEGAEIACAWIQSCVjuE0GIO3A37hkE4l/LiLmWtPwUCZYxK tgIbDAAKCRA4l/LiLmWtP3jmEACQrh9gWe8F1Tkw3m6VoHKwLc5he4tX3WpQa//soPO6iGG3 S3WPruQ46NrAaAojoOcKI9UONDO5rxG0ZTX53S+lu2EO47jbcLwOCjaEpjKpDRt9ZXBQE8Xl mtBE9Bp3W9gpjB1nE3KNM1mJYgsK0QdRpwwfh4pVgGpOj8j23I6MCK+v99zEBnpgCn2GX8W/ kctRXHqWwndHysOJtRP/zrl7dDaABF1f9efUl0LL3TD3GJ9VDz+DNOin/uK2a1hiJo8QzTRk PpfUQ2ebzDsrd1i/pOWkMSkdH+rEu4AGrXWtaBwrMyrGkL6Icb6yO+P9/z0W2wlgBf3P1YRt JPgQt/Dj3yvA/UnaV/QmuVQPjl13o24UnJGsZM8XGnNdfWBKkC1Q6VXC4QT+dyBHYH9MuE9d 6oGl8pFM1+cTfEfbM62/rRoPkF1yHMsI/903VxEvuUIKfhEZAVLFyHldooNxuchntHQP9y8J 8Ou9bWYQP7MnEn+kwSwrZkjurfPkan+xQvp6dDYnj3V0GwA5pprBMaB928VIDVOv+1PNQI3t Cvk5VPv/skq+TJRMHW7bFSt8PRa91cUf1FOLIz9APDiJOzXkwxUEHGV3zPSaUhs1JYjyBeGT wDAvtLUdjOnRhEUOwlnIrztmvyciutjJoVzKEEjj5WXnHk9L9kQ1bpAjkjTONw== In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 8/7/25 18:20, vermaden wrote: > OK, Colin Percival just announced 15.0-PRERELEASE - yet the PKGBASE concept - besides 'kinda working' - does not holds to the POLA principle at all - and if anyone will chose to use PKGBASE instead of 'classic' install the 'pkg delete -af' will not only delete all the third party packages but will also WIPE almost ENTIRE BASE SYSTEM of FreeBSD ... this is not unacceptable to say the least. POLA is inherently subjective; what astonishes one person might be exactly what another person expects. In this particular case, while someone might indeed be astonished that "forcibly delete everything" deletes everything, someone else could well be astonished if "pkg delete -f clang" doesn't in fact delete clang. > My 'vote' here does not changed. > > Lets keep pkg(8) for third party packages with: > - /etc/pkg > - /usr/local/etc/pkg > - /var/db/pkg > > Lets have pkgbase(8) for FreeBSD Base System PKGBASE with: > - /etc/pkgbase > - /usr/local/etc/pkgbase > - /var/db/pkgbase I would like this idea, except for one wrinkle: I don't think it would work. In particular, packages installed from ports might depend on packages from the base system, so having a single tool which knows about both is necessary. -- Colin Percival FreeBSD Release Engineering Lead & EC2 platform maintainer Founder, Tarsnap | www.tarsnap.com | Online backups for the truly paranoid From nobody Fri Aug 8 04:00:11 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4byr0W6v4Wz645x6 for ; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 04:00:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-yb1-xb2c.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4byr0W4mKkz3KYY for ; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 04:00:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-yb1-xb2c.google.com with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-e8e0c6f1707so1452902276.0 for ; Thu, 07 Aug 2025 21:00:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; t=1754625625; x=1755230425; darn=freebsd.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=ot99B9GWFHQ0CteksIkJaQV0PW9Q8M04QuUDLAov60I=; b=cASqU7N43uOvS4igkU+iKWOJ718Oh2Hn9MC5SHM+kfn4XnhYug8aVksHRH4+RV9FOo ZmbHq51WchMsRzmoxYE8+ibohzh5UUa1bRqhvZjHlGbaeUi7vGJMJ5FLwS7hfbbr9Zij WuUJ9jxTpRHq1x7Awgj7qtwFS2bJ4CwVO0qQiVf1eYWJ8YOWoB4TXctlRSLhd2tcOG3+ pxGVH5h1D9I3x+9T0UikcpAHJNOwPTTFS3vY8GcQpqVPomT49lmIh6LSrqSTxb8/DUi/ Izpy2O1bb3WrnJi6rLtXsHD+QcB5VgrntDgCo4SblZbjo/JUSWtNFIh2yH/p8lzwkzqB MZHA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1754625625; x=1755230425; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=ot99B9GWFHQ0CteksIkJaQV0PW9Q8M04QuUDLAov60I=; b=SvPfbGnv2RzfmxhyvO/qv1aAHgSXuH943/l/cizVNHcYAXKbDEgmzE1wjSx7ydmN66 mMDXB7EwlbJJYvZVQ1So33s8oh+DGu0dvM14+R4htJ+5qHo12FGB06JsSHUQ58D/zaDp 2xCdvvI3MyJ1z6I/n+s6cpYqwLj8TjMBsposEhehiQxOOdNDEoGLLDL92ilBi7c09Qrm 0lqw+sE3N0zS+EzoSRR+4VyJ8JFn56Cf6Uv0ERAoxTZDnpY13j/UIPFuT3YBdiRffM8z wZchJDf4tw/HlxKgZqjdg8FmnCrmkw5uAdgesgzkLlkW1a4cqocRfhgVMREfvagUMPGu A7Aw== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCWe77ziG1muVeFq1kml1ZY4wQV00pZNwHbsWRgXosaja4yj98vU7CjreWyaxYkIpd1b/hhFqNhzh81XCQAWf/w=@freebsd.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxcPyNo3YSx+gFJ10kb7byVxA8dOSUKpdnrfTg9RB6eufTlLB5i V7KyxX/lQQK/lKGAKBK/VVqhzucdZ2GTwc2KOdQtCfwPZsV7OWHsyI9IfkIxhmCSjg== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncu9o/kqyq5dZlalDStqXOdS9uDn/RhOtJjs1I1xzCzHSJI0pk61N5iTXS7x08P bFVXmpgk2L97HZ9FD4MSVBImPkH/t3DNbWbpFhzK8scUfSqpxiB0R0nCAeps7wROfTFVAmmry8E gutIpt7SkMPujhRPgP/OHKYCsyjICrxptPbwiE6DLS2Y5jjZYt4nyC8yA9aaF9cnSU3xT71g74F klsQWBjd2tHc3wabJpeuudZ8vaV3//43QxB1xAUdhBnNZjltcb+WUwA+InrBUixrHbA6aqX1hfK Vezi4lSuG+sOstK8FI4CTBRej6wSlFXty2azJmmvYccB7F7CWdiDmZW07CXnb8mF3vMGLnBbCez X8VBJqG712i/PRbhFrE7qsZpeQw7sOephsrjQvOb9WhC8MGn1G7Dj7Ip0rzk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IE094H+4AK4WKXVYCz8NWvq2m3vDWDWLDX9AgZBOa4HHdhIsChgf5qqVpVUO4EQ8lcsIbYPOg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6902:1108:b0:e8b:908a:a932 with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-e904b12430emr2083491276.0.1754625625054; Thu, 07 Aug 2025 21:00:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw1-f169.google.com (mail-yw1-f169.google.com. [209.85.128.169]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 3f1490d57ef6-e900da4155csm3607635276.39.2025.08.07.21.00.24 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 07 Aug 2025 21:00:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw1-f169.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-71b6ab52e8cso17736777b3.0; Thu, 07 Aug 2025 21:00:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCWCKSf+ja/BumqAziGmLcBzdcPmtwELbgXl6DeAulPEaARbOk9E24DAsgwn0OrAfhAa6QNrJyudGpCZDui4tVU=@freebsd.org, AJvYcCWSnYcz2qYT3MSQIu/hPnaVXybLQbMPfulQA8oJQy36sR8IFeZOqpBOOi9b+fi5Ic/5zPK9mWIqdhYkj6JTlhD3@freebsd.org, AJvYcCWo9f4tnxvT+DamythFmPf1dxWdj+t9Y49bldLGocsIwm6XA/2N6jLsliCZ1ciM6UiiQddi4MACaLFXsgYHTm0=@freebsd.org X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:700e:b0:71a:2130:a8fc with SMTP id 00721157ae682-71bf0e51c86mr22529337b3.35.1754625623464; Thu, 07 Aug 2025 21:00:23 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Tomek CEDRO Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 06:00:11 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: X-Gm-Features: Ac12FXzvA1rStK43CVkQgc6R-AYCbYsy61CS0bzu7LjbKHOa-s9Fx_2ZxJozsS0 Message-ID: Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature To: Colin Percival Cc: vermaden , Sulev-Madis Silber , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4byr0W4mKkz3KYY X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 4:18=E2=80=AFAM Colin Percival wrote: > > On 8/7/25 18:20, vermaden wrote: > > OK, Colin Percival just announced 15.0-PRERELEASE - yet the PKGBASE con= cept - besides 'kinda working' - does not holds to the POLA principle at al= l - and if anyone will chose to use PKGBASE instead of 'classic' install th= e 'pkg delete -af' will not only delete all the third party packages but wi= ll also WIPE almost ENTIRE BASE SYSTEM of FreeBSD ... this is not unaccepta= ble to say the least. > > POLA is inherently subjective; what astonishes one person might be exactl= y > what another person expects. In this particular case, while someone migh= t > indeed be astonished that "forcibly delete everything" deletes everything= , > someone else could well be astonished if "pkg delete -f clang" doesn't in > fact delete clang. Not really. So far "the FreeBSD standard" kept things "similar" for over 30 years. If we traveled back/forward in time we would still use the same approach to configure and run stuff. Maybe except pkg-add was replaced with pkg, but still all locations are the same, configuration files format, ports build, etc. "Base" is the cornerstone of FreeBSD and its most widely known unique feature. It is like coming back to familiar stable work place, where all things does not change on a daily basis, or going to a different place and having the same familiar setup with nothing missing. There was always clear separation of "base system" and "userland". This meant all FreeBSD base release X.Y would have exactly the same predictable behavior for everyone. This is not "subjective", this is "coherence", this is self-compatibility, 1+1=3D2. If "if "pkg delete -f clang" doesn't in fact delete clang" then we go full Microsoft :-( > > My 'vote' here does not changed. > > > > Lets keep pkg(8) for third party packages with: > > - /etc/pkg > > - /usr/local/etc/pkg > > - /var/db/pkg > > > > Lets have pkgbase(8) for FreeBSD Base System PKGBASE with: > > - /etc/pkgbase > > - /usr/local/etc/pkgbase > > - /var/db/pkgbase > > I would like this idea, except for one wrinkle: I don't think it would wo= rk. > In particular, packages installed from ports might depend on packages fro= m > the base system, so having a single tool which knows about both is necess= ary. This statement is extremely dangerous. It touches clue of this discussion. It seems to reveal planning to totally break current FreeBSD design / architecture? So far "base" could work without "userland", provided consistent, coherent, and predictable working environment. Everyone had the same set of "base" tools where "userland" could be built on top, so every system could be different but had exactly the same base. I can see that "base" will not be coherent for everyone anymore. If ports start depending on base packages then circular dependencies will arise and this will be a Linux-like-mess, because there could be different versions of base packages for different port versions that will depend on different versions of base packages. Then all will be just a package and there will be no "coherent FreeBSD base" anymore right? Then 14-RELEASE will hit end-of-lie and people will be _forced_ to switch to 15-RELEASE or move away to different BSD. This sounds like FreeBSD is going full Linux :-( People already report their doubts and fears, backed by real world evidence. Do we go hey Linux Y was released, so whole world will now have to rebuild all their release packages because these were built for Linux X, and then people need to just get that package T from repo Z not from repo Q because this is not part of Y and it was there in X but Q changed its API? I hope we don't go to that moving sands area. I hope its more like hey you will finally be able to run next release on that old router with 2MB of Flash and 8MB of RAM and it will work better than Linux plus you will get all fresh packages and features with security fixes. This is how we see "progress", by getting new features in a simple familiar fashion, not by overcomplicating things that makes them unusable. I can understand that pkgbase can have its benefits, this is why it was invented and being worked on, but its design should follow well established FreeBSD standard that assures self-compatibility, so people in 10 years will still have their own favorite familiar working environment that comes from clear "base" and "userland" separation. This is still possible right? --=20 CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From nobody Fri Aug 8 07:10:53 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bywDN4Kzfz64PQf; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 07:11:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sthaug@nethelp.no) Received: from bizet.nethelp.no (bizet.nethelp.no [195.1.209.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bywDM5Ylcz3kX2; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 07:10:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sthaug@nethelp.no) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of sthaug@nethelp.no designates 195.1.209.4 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=sthaug@nethelp.no; dmarc=none Received: from localhost (bizet.nethelp.no [195.1.209.4]) by bizet.nethelp.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CB07647397; Fri, 8 Aug 2025 09:10:53 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2025 09:10:53 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20250808.091053.1322595805169591390.sthaug@nethelp.no> To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature From: sthaug@nethelp.no In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mew version 6.9 on Emacs 30.1 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.51 / 15.00]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[0.996]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.996]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.992]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.20)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:2116, ipnet:195.1.0.0/16, country:NO]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_NO_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[nethelp.no]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_HELO_LOCALHOST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org,freebsd-stable@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bywDM5Ylcz3kX2 X-Spamd-Bar: / >> POLA is inherently subjective; what astonishes one person might be exactly >> what another person expects. In this particular case, while someone might >> indeed be astonished that "forcibly delete everything" deletes everything, >> someone else could well be astonished if "pkg delete -f clang" doesn't in >> fact delete clang. > > Not really. So far "the FreeBSD standard" kept things "similar" for > over 30 years. If we traveled back/forward in time we would still use > the same approach to configure and run stuff. Maybe except pkg-add was > replaced with pkg, but still all locations are the same, configuration > files format, ports build, etc. "Base" is the cornerstone of FreeBSD > and its most widely known unique feature. It is like coming back to > familiar stable work place, where all things does not change on a > daily basis, or going to a different place and having the same > familiar setup with nothing missing. There was always clear separation > of "base system" and "userland". This meant all FreeBSD base release > X.Y would have exactly the same predictable behavior for everyone. FreeBSD-user since 2.0 here. I've gotten used to the FreeBSD package system, and quite like it. Regarding this discussion: - It's important to have a clean separation between the base system (whether that is installed using the package system or not) and the rest. An easy way to list "these are the base system packages" is absolutely needed. - I see no problem with packages from ports depending on packages from the base system, since packages from ports already depend on the base system today. The other way around, having the base system depend on packages from ports, would be a problem! - Maybe there should be an extra step if you try to delete packages from the base system? I'm no great fan of "Are you sure" prompts all over the place, this is just some food for thought. - In any case, if you do any variant of "pkg delete -f" you are explicitly saying "I want to *force* this delete", and shooting yourself in the foot should be allowed. Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, sthaug@nethelp.no From nobody Fri Aug 8 08:18:51 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4byxkk00ljz63HGh for ; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 08:18:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4byxkj6H9sz3rtG; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 08:18:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754641133; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=5Omy8EFlb+NHPjedgAepKHMI5LMskkf2SvJIxqaafXA=; b=YzHDrCKN4VOndhFEeeDkq92WS4Uhw4wL6DYdDwwGSl0UTtRkO+HLz12H5798lFmEe2j+R2 2vtBse2B3MIR922X3JlWke7VIJpcwXX4/2aEsuYCATAGxrVu7SPBCQQzJGsmrY641EvLBw dpFgfoVsp8wTItmJkn9yd8wL1kvCIdlyR+8HMXpQdQP6/07+PmjD9ryxJAtbRTTHQSsxd/ wQ/4Kn7vJBxyJQdhCMhFWhWKZjq6MpAyHctgcRcvVCc+tijnKeakGit0m6AN2hMaU3qoeT 586h8m25dle40faulY/g8AjpeMqA45h5gr8Ro6mMjgUlf1YpJGnBJlBLMoamaQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754641133; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=5Omy8EFlb+NHPjedgAepKHMI5LMskkf2SvJIxqaafXA=; b=JA2PEfnwR0pFvcl4dlzIxYsA8Q9na0QvLG71dxC9NXVqxo3FP3fa/CryPPzj1+WXt0vY6q htK5WxJu5j31etKxnT2TmnnxkvEJXgPohdvRrkNFb8X22hzW06S6CrvNJFnmLeqAljNGaK qHWenGu0b57wnMT8ga3vu5uLGN+KJVDU2e7vuaBSVK0Wla30m797gd07EuqfJb+IVBmxe+ Kr+mHaZgAQtlIKjQEgYVKscwFxA05bNRrdxituUfXPxHTXHPhr1m3h5v96wsuhPcWNvOot PfBesglpKkEbu2ZJmk7wqqOGhOTSL7DSITVQc9YizLFNZ7jXZsFR7zEUByuPoA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1754641133; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=ifTlbdyG13ifavsE2Kwt+cH6VTc0GO77qIUw8PAc0OGeptxR7vjXHZjWGKdp6QXlPMcfg5 6v2gDW7Zkb26s7QU7avypZJOcXKNPd1nPJsjbObUS3oGX08F/cn2mrKn1N4+h/4hiS7ZzJ pOw+bQbjqKv2flGr0mTkOqpQQpHIBxplZbte0QSvLXVz7rxJ/FbyvHGFPzbKtE1jPzk3ND VFHgeNRW+rnU076xwPo2u0dN+EJyXfFjSX3PQo5+N9RAXHntZkh6RqxsO/N7vuVEYSxC/L /BIUOGW1LjYpJhc/9GNxCxus+CbEFzheh+FzARXVM1J7fiKpWSNecJ8ICDG5vg== Received: from ltc.des.dev (88-177-82-251.subs.proxad.net [88.177.82.251]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: des) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4byxkj4wcYz8sC; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 08:18:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) Received: by ltc.des.dev (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 7BB3F12D6B; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 10:18:51 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Rick Macklem Cc: FreeBSD CURRENT Subject: Re: RFC: Dealing with optionally built files like gssd during installworld In-Reply-To: (Rick Macklem's message of "Thu, 7 Aug 2025 15:57:19 -0700") References: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2025 10:18:51 +0200 Message-ID: <86ldnu445w.fsf@ltc.des.dev> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rick Macklem writes: > With my recent commit, the Makefile in usr.sbin only > builds a gssd if MK_KERBEROS_SUPPORT !=3D "no". > > Should this go into tools/build/mk/OptionalObsoleteFiles.inc? Lexi already has a patch for this: https://reviews.freebsd.org/D51812 DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@FreeBSD.org From nobody Fri Aug 8 08:31:34 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4byy1N60Kpz63JQT; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 08:31:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4byy1N5KNrz3tWB; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 08:31:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754641896; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=fqUef/kZopp+mlTWsyl535iSZZOg14Bq726ZeuIhzHg=; b=KxlhBpFHp1zJTIUZxlIbzkC5eC6Ul+A4Mi2ZsBHXuAW0z61StfnevcTYaVmBYeFOGwebmh pHBtTTCSL7RgTJ9bWbGpdKTkovj+FSlv16xXj0RHvPkzA6BLlRarDKw2ATnDIpFKKZGWvz ZtoRb92NwdUmCHXlMrW03tH0hvBaThXy64azMARogWxYAWduZPauaxCtoCJyhGR25KJoE6 YIUJjnbjcPTHVx5JNFfxzsBjco1xJwuyEq6fEkdNwzpXd7adHNyNJmEmv4/ytC7gwqnuNF AkVoSCEpJsYB3NYxJA4iFuOU/E2TBwOT2nkjzGjZzWE1jBHybtpC/x8LgqBPng== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754641896; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=fqUef/kZopp+mlTWsyl535iSZZOg14Bq726ZeuIhzHg=; b=Fr7QqucoeGHUtBai0WyuVJPdfDDzVyPPkNX+Mm2gYweP6yGAbX5UKWfyfpQ9G9mhUTfLiX 2sW/gv7n3nFnWfmkk0SpjwL6GgMobOrS54B5mUZyN+JH+OgLsXHWB/MdL69r6XWjRs+Qdt ZN+A1ZVmoJrXIAUBYq8NCCLidicanXQ9yrFbBDYA5e6z6fjZr0JZnDIsD4uCszfN9w/Aph Q+MEmYPB5qbwUHsg/bRo3U3iUNNYi67qtXoZkeQA/biv0xvUqGz/SUBq+GxTcWwtQ53jdX ZQyi0Um8hnR/40GtML1RLW07Z2pMHOCiXB0IuuQy3UjWlLZ2zv+1TkDfVdvi+Q== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1754641896; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=CnTeUlbXSUnJz1RPLR+4cDO0ZxUWJq9oTHVkg6zIqNaOykqjVT64ze4eKkBWwEjToLVt8Q ziUWvAYudOLZfX9GbPxLNu3YLiy9hKNLLtyayQu7jpUtYrDvUbcnYkvc/C7CtezxXrZLdu ejqQJdAnIUMeDn++s8lKvTupyUSMWXRZ9Gy45sqNsnmu2sTwpIpkmRVw1yrarjq5WtiejB 56lKySex/9bm6TW32tCC+ptRqo4AHd9V2v1MxsoNzEKG+q5Dzs+8rlmd5U+1yltOUOqTaN gG1MsL6SVhCHdOL4DiFH5JydY1m5iiNS3h4VxBkarB7AIZGjSA2nUC1MjyiN0Q== Received: from ltc.des.dev (unknown [IPv6:2a01:e0a:c54:bed0:922e:16ff:fef1:acef]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: des) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4byy1N4B5ZzBR5; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 08:31:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) Received: by ltc.des.dev (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 8C2E9116F8; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 10:31:34 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: sthaug@nethelp.no Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature In-Reply-To: <20250808.091053.1322595805169591390.sthaug@nethelp.no> (sthaug@nethelp.no's message of "Fri, 08 Aug 2025 09:10:53 +0200 (CEST)") References: <20250808.091053.1322595805169591390.sthaug@nethelp.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2025 10:31:34 +0200 Message-ID: <86h5yi43kp.fsf@ltc.des.dev> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable sthaug@nethelp.no writes: > - It's important to have a clean separation between the base system > (whether that is installed using the package system or not) and the > rest. An easy way to list "these are the base system packages" is > absolutely needed. You can easily create an alias for this: pkg query -e '%o =3D base' %n If you want something closer to `pkg info`, try: pkg query -e '%o =3D base' '%n-%v %c' | column -tl 2 > - Maybe there should be an extra step if you try to delete packages > from the base system? There already is: % sudo pkg delete FreeBSD-clibs Checking integrity... done (0 conflicting) The following package(s) are locked or vital and may not be removed: =20=20=20=20 FreeBSD-clibs =20=20=20=20 1 packages requested for removal: 1 locked, 0 missing The only matter that remains to be settled is which packages should be marked vital: % pkg query -e '%V =3D 1' %n FreeBSD-clibs FreeBSD-runtime DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@FreeBSD.org From nobody Fri Aug 8 10:01:36 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bz01T6H9zz63THr; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 10:01:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Received: from www121.sakura.ne.jp (www121.sakura.ne.jp [153.125.133.21]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bz01T22q6z472G; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 10:01:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from kalamity.joker.local (124-18-43-114.area1c.commufa.jp [124.18.43.114]) (authenticated bits=0) by www121.sakura.ne.jp (8.18.1/8.17.1/[SAKURA-WEB]/20201212) with ESMTPA id 578A1aMH059888; Fri, 8 Aug 2025 19:01:37 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=dec.sakura.ne.jp; s=s2405; t=1754647298; bh=tU7od8tnUPxCNGLmGUpVCVhO+hRUDKp74Xp0deMbwoo=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=Uf6XXkMMqyNhiWRHr+vSi7TgMuRlA7O3KgTD3aZf4EP26am+qK66QzNzVFI8j8ruH HWlIotxRq03vb5mmtKqMHXuRrPWBmgFj+ZBnLfnWsHZ5TEoIp85ikEgpRKQ5bw7MhJ 4rmu8gRzIVguJY4e86yLHOxud/abeiH5LapoRb2U= Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 19:01:36 +0900 From: Tomoaki AOKI To: Colin Percival Cc: vermaden , Sulev-Madis Silber , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Message-Id: <20250808190136.e3134ff4f46b6fc830ba3a0c@dec.sakura.ne.jp> In-Reply-To: References: Organization: Junchoon corps X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.33; amd64-portbld-freebsd14.3) List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bz01T22q6z472G X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7684, ipnet:153.125.128.0/18, country:JP] On Thu, 7 Aug 2025 19:17:23 -0700 Colin Percival wrote: > On 8/7/25 18:20, vermaden wrote: > > OK, Colin Percival just announced 15.0-PRERELEASE - yet the PKGBASE concept - besides 'kinda working' - does not holds to the POLA principle at all - and if anyone will chose to use PKGBASE instead of 'classic' install the 'pkg delete -af' will not only delete all the third party packages but will also WIPE almost ENTIRE BASE SYSTEM of FreeBSD ... this is not unacceptable to say the least. > > POLA is inherently subjective; what astonishes one person might be exactly > what another person expects. In this particular case, while someone might > indeed be astonished that "forcibly delete everything" deletes everything, > someone else could well be astonished if "pkg delete -f clang" doesn't in > fact delete clang. > > > My 'vote' here does not changed. > > > > Lets keep pkg(8) for third party packages with: > > - /etc/pkg > > - /usr/local/etc/pkg > > - /var/db/pkg > > > > Lets have pkgbase(8) for FreeBSD Base System PKGBASE with: > > - /etc/pkgbase > > - /usr/local/etc/pkgbase > > - /var/db/pkgbase > > I would like this idea, except for one wrinkle: I don't think it would work. > In particular, packages installed from ports might depend on packages from > the base system, so having a single tool which knows about both is necessary. What about switching the default behavior WRT in what name it is involed, like ex and vi? Possibly I'm mis-understanding / mis-remenbering, but IIRC, ther is vital flag that prevent the pkg from easily removed. Treating non-pkg base to be vital could help. Isn't it? Also, for PkgBase, defaulting base packages "locked" and unlock them when really need and requested to upgrade, then, lock again once finished would be wanted. Maybe it would be better done via bsdinstall and/or freebsd-update, using pkg as its backend. Keeping UI and config files as-is (just "distributions" like base.txz are broken down into finer grain and its extentions changes to *.pkg) would minimize pains in the wild. (As, for example, lib32.txz didn't exist in i386, IMHO, changes in "distributin names" are acceptable on major version ups.) And "layering" base and ports would be also wanted. Anything in "ports" layer can depends on anything in "base" layer, but components in "base" layer should be restricted NOT to depends on enything in "ports" layer. Maybe the exception would be external tool chains to build base. Possibly Rust required for future LinuxKPI? > -- > Colin Percival > FreeBSD Release Engineering Lead & EC2 platform maintainer > Founder, Tarsnap | www.tarsnap.com | Online backups for the truly paranoid -- Tomoaki AOKI From nobody Fri Aug 8 11:02:07 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bz1MX1ZCNz63YVT; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 11:02:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rb@gid.co.uk) Received: from gid2.gid.co.uk (ns0.gid.co.uk [IPv6:2001:470:94de::240]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "gid2.gid.co.uk", Issuer "gid2.gid.co.uk" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bz1MW2ffGz3Hxx; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 11:02:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rb@gid.co.uk) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of rb@gid.co.uk designates 2001:470:94de::240 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=rb@gid.co.uk; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gid.co.uk Received: from mx0.gid.co.uk (mx0.gid.co.uk [194.32.164.250]) by gid2.gid.co.uk (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 578B2NDS039629; Fri, 8 Aug 2025 12:02:23 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from rb@gid.co.uk) Received: from smtpclient.apple ([194.32.164.24]) by mx0.gid.co.uk (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id 578B2HvW082174; Fri, 8 Aug 2025 12:02:18 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from rb@gid.co.uk) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.600.51.1.1\)) Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature From: Bob Bishop In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 12:02:07 +0100 Cc: "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: To: "freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.600.51.1.1) X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.23 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.998]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.93)[-0.932]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gid.co.uk,none]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_ALL(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org,freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bz1MW2ffGz3Hxx X-Spamd-Bar: --- Hi, > On 8 Aug 2025, at 02:28, void wrote: > > On Thu, Aug 07, 2025 at 01:43:28AM +0200, Tomek CEDRO wrote: >> +1 =) >> >> Base and Userland should be clearly separated, as it was, as it is, no >> matter how it will be organized internally (i.e. modular base) :-) > > +1 here also. > > Why not avoid breaking POLA by having a differently-named > binary for pkgbase management? Different switches, too. > -- +1 more. Too many bullet holes in my feet already. -- Bob Bishop rb@gid.co.uk From nobody Fri Aug 8 12:30:42 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bz3KJ58vnz63jZB; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 12:30:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bz3KJ3qQWz3Q74; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 12:30:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754656244; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=C6elxcIjK2zGRoxBOlYtQpocN4f1itxUoBpDi1K0FyQ=; b=n5vMQa67VVDkeMLY0Quq5LkwlGw4gVRups6opXfkfwaaRNqMxxNjdN3Qj8u5xjVeuKnNE/ j61EVlX86zVUb6UQwn4u5cZR2TG8ZgePbSDYT5Qqct03i8YMwQzxwggkrcz5GH08uCk9Hc sOvC5mTumzSKM3Pe1txBNc2xJ574EPnUk7LXL9eBNdK+OPByi/OiluexLeAxwiw+5xw3V5 RDOj47FK51IXevQ2tojaG0ly6/63OLsNpR2EibUImWoYluoRCm+IhCT4mqkoCf/+zGneTc Fa4yUAZ97t6ugnAmed8AalGR9uM/+h8UzeTNnbKJQ9fhcTPX75ai+TVlbNxGbg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754656244; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=C6elxcIjK2zGRoxBOlYtQpocN4f1itxUoBpDi1K0FyQ=; b=B8DsMaSNRhpBYCP5B6Hs5eYFiz8k2uUG5SbV6nmJmbHRVFxaQv4IBDKINySpAq2zRPZw4k 5lmOXHJTgxFRAIVOqvpbJ/5kB5NGyPTKJ1INDnKOwCx/8Uz7MhbuVNJj/7iy3/CyWIeDzJ itsokj+zSgahUk7SOq1J8BtpFS8W2ZWt8ZlKOi5od8qWAHFrDj+MtJlTNd4FGPptCVB+lQ CG5YJIgMGv7jKCmel73bhAWbSFI1NxO5NsRaqeVqpd6Z9kgNVdrSvKyedsC7Zk0HWJhrw1 GSnQ0vn+VpaI3RObn6fwp/UJS7wPJsJHr4W8HYbH/3QpKi7hmhyD7yFfPffgqw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1754656244; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=CFsDT7R/QEVVCKtCtWQU6Gs556W8PPnYb+OG9rIVqT9m4oQ8UJZsTU+qtlx9vYbfa4spfO zVF92eYFUZeTBnasYwZI3at03S8CJMgS2wiL698mbAjehsS9rQhySBwKohjqqE33N5/Bgu PtiPhRhbjAd9UiJSIcknaVjE3Z6iQYkvyjumFnSj0dB+pCQwRJvXDFgtwq0tZZsNd0YIvp Ybl6qYTUiAmqtmPIDwyNk9B/209M4VBncdSaBkOTfpY0nbMY73n3qfzyqww2vPXKhpxnFu ffQ441JHkkaBeFcJrFNyxw6lqFEvIrT5B1oAeb2/g7Nd7Sz4RHRRGbW7bF5Y8w== Received: from ltc.des.dev (unknown [IPv6:2a01:e0a:c54:bed0:922e:16ff:fef1:acef]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: des) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4bz3KJ15HSzG8d; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 12:30:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) Received: by ltc.des.dev (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 5F3DE12CD1; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 14:30:42 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Tomek CEDRO Cc: Colin Percival , vermaden , Sulev-Madis Silber , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature In-Reply-To: (Tomek CEDRO's message of "Fri, 8 Aug 2025 06:00:11 +0200") References: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2025 14:30:42 +0200 Message-ID: <864iui3si5.fsf@ltc.des.dev> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tomek CEDRO writes: > Not really. So far "the FreeBSD standard" kept things "similar" for > over 30 years. If we traveled back/forward in time we would still use > the same approach to configure and run stuff. Maybe except pkg-add was > replaced with pkg, but still all locations are the same, configuration > files format, ports build, etc. I'm sorry but that's pure fantasy. In the last 30 years, we've switched our init system twice, the main system configuration moved from /etc/sysconfig to /etc/rc.conf, and we later added /etc/rc.conf.d and per-service subdirectories. The ports tree is also completely different from what it was 15 years ago, let alone 30: we've switched to staged, unprivileged builds, we've added USES and FLAVOR, we switched the primary identifier from the origin to PKGNAME, we switched to pkg (which is a much bigger change than you seem to realize)... If anything, the separation between base and ports is stronger now than ever, because we used to allow ports to install files outside of ${LOCALBASE} and even replace parts of the base system. Packaged base has been in the works for a decade and it's going in. There are rough edges, but we'll sort them out and the end result will be much, much easier to manage for everybody than what we have now. By the time FreeBSD 16.0 comes around, it will be second nature, and you will have a hard time remembering what the fuss was all about. > > [...] packages installed from ports might depend on packages from > > the base system [...] > This statement is extremely dangerous. It touches clue of this > discussion. It seems to reveal planning to totally break current > FreeBSD design / architecture? So far "base" could work without > "userland", provided consistent, coherent, and predictable working > environment. Everyone had the same set of "base" tools where > "userland" could be built on top, so every system could be different > but had exactly the same base. I can see that "base" will not be > coherent for everyone anymore. If ports start depending on base > packages then circular dependencies will arise and this will be a > Linux-like-mess, because there could be different versions of base > packages for different port versions that will depend on different > versions of base packages. Then all will be just a package and there > will be no "coherent FreeBSD base" anymore right? Then 14-RELEASE will > hit end-of-lie and people will be _forced_ to switch to 15-RELEASE or > move away to different BSD. This sounds like FreeBSD is going full > Linux :-( It's bad form to quote a large paragraph without summarizing, but this is so unhinged I couldn't figure out what to cut. It's completely off the wall, starting with the use of =E2=80=9Cuserland=E2=80=9D, a well-estab= lished term meaning =E2=80=9Ccode that isn't part of the kernel=E2=80=9D, to mean... s= omething else that I can't quite figure out. But also, there is nothing circular at all about ports depending on base. That's the way it's always been, even if we didn't explicitly record it in package metadata (apart from the shlib login in recent versions of pkg). DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@FreeBSD.org From nobody Fri Aug 8 13:05:08 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bz4580x8Pz63my5 for ; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 13:05:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chris@cretaforce.gr) Received: from smtp8.cretaforce.gr (smtp8.cretaforce.gr [116.202.1.60]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (Client CN "*.cretaforce.gr", Issuer "RapidSSL TLS RSA CA G1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bz45775RPz3WDF for ; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 13:05:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chris@cretaforce.gr) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from server1.cretaforce.gr (server1.cretaforce.gr [94.130.217.104]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (Client CN "*.cretaforce.gr", Issuer "RapidSSL TLS RSA CA G1" (verified OK)) by smtp.cretaforce.gr (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DCF8F1F74C for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2025 16:05:08 +0300 (EEST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [109.178.143.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: chris@cretaforce.gr) by server1.cretaforce.gr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 291C92C972; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 16:05:09 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cretaforce.gr; s=cretaforce; t=1754658309; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=R2OVja7KT8IUD690IE+R6kCeAN/FnDPyv147sZgekyI=; b=H/MgVcDyehyEPITxBiOtODSjNIJUP2sDwhnyLszhuahR64YGl0ht6KpXkfsSM3SgbMi/bK jeaGeaRhumipoD6ZsMtLeCG8cPP12RU8z74N+YE7GcI4fzqNuUkF+m3vCrIWHjYJCtqe/j NjQafNxSL9ef7tUTHQRq6N4kYZwBYW4= From: Christos Chatzaras Message-Id: <60C3169A-3793-4E65-9113-A402934618A8@cretaforce.gr> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_539E53A8-AE99-44BF-B144-DF5819BC2486" List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.600.51.1.1\)) Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 16:05:08 +0300 In-Reply-To: Cc: Sulev-Madis Silber , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org" To: vermaden References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.600.51.1.1) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bz45775RPz3WDF X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:24940, ipnet:116.202.0.0/16, country:DE] --Apple-Mail=_539E53A8-AE99-44BF-B144-DF5819BC2486 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On 8 Aug 2025, at 04:20, vermaden wrote: >=20 > OK, Colin Percival just announced 15.0-PRERELEASE - yet the PKGBASE = concept - besides 'kinda working' - does not holds to the POLA principle = at all - and if anyone will chose to use PKGBASE instead of 'classic' = install the 'pkg delete -af' will not only delete all the third party = packages but will also WIPE almost ENTIRE BASE SYSTEM of FreeBSD ... = this is not unacceptable to say the least. >=20 > My 'vote' here does not changed. >=20 > Lets keep pkg(8) for third party packages with: > - /etc/pkg > - /usr/local/etc/pkg > - /var/db/pkg >=20 > Lets have pkgbase(8) for FreeBSD Base System PKGBASE with: > - /etc/pkgbase > - /usr/local/etc/pkgbase > - /var/db/pkgbase >=20 > Its literally the same 'separation' as the Base System for binaries: > - /bin > - /usr/bin > - /sbin > - /usr/sbin >=20 > And /usr/local PREFIX for third party packages as: > - /usr/local/bin > - /usr/local/sbin >=20 > Regards, > vermaden I support the pkgbase approach and agree with the proposed separation.= --Apple-Mail=_539E53A8-AE99-44BF-B144-DF5819BC2486 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

On 8 Aug 2025, at 04:20, vermaden = <vermaden@interia.pl> wrote:

OK, Colin Percival just = announced 15.0-PRERELEASE - yet the PKGBASE concept - besides 'kinda = working' - does not holds to the POLA principle at all - and if anyone = will chose to use PKGBASE instead of 'classic' install the 'pkg delete = -af' will not only delete all the third party packages but will also = WIPE almost ENTIRE BASE SYSTEM of FreeBSD ... this is not unacceptable = to say the least.

My 'vote' here does not changed.

Lets = keep pkg(8) for third party packages with:
- /etc/pkg
- = /usr/local/etc/pkg
- /var/db/pkg

Lets have pkgbase(8) for = FreeBSD Base System PKGBASE with:
- /etc/pkgbase
- = /usr/local/etc/pkgbase
- /var/db/pkgbase

Its literally the = same 'separation' as the Base System for binaries:
- /bin
- = /usr/bin
- /sbin
- /usr/sbin

And /usr/local PREFIX for = third party packages as:
- /usr/local/bin
- = /usr/local/sbin

Regards,
vermaden

I support the pkgbase approach and agree = with the proposed separation.

= --Apple-Mail=_539E53A8-AE99-44BF-B144-DF5819BC2486-- From nobody Fri Aug 8 13:20:07 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bz4Qb5Kt6z63pZm; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 13:20:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sm@codenetworks.net) Received: from relayout10-q02.dominioabsoluto.net (relayout10-q02.dominioabsoluto.net [217.116.26.36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bz4Qb035cz3ZZJ; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 13:20:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sm@codenetworks.net) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from relayout10-redir.dominioabsoluto.net (relayout10-redir.dominioabsoluto.net [217.116.26.39]) by relayout10.dominioabsoluto.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bz4QV6MZ4z9r3b; Fri, 8 Aug 2025 15:20:18 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=codenetworks.net; s=domabs; t=1754659218; bh=iyn2RQDtHt7/gcDJ0DkEmx7gmBH/Nvgw+LpYkht/vB8=; h=From:Subject:Date:References:Cc:In-Reply-To:To:From; b=fOJCa6G8KNrKghdRgovWo+oXps0chaUtkwByVUC+RXQzrgjBMBoLBgif1cMjTimdW 8t+36lxJRCBClz8hmSn+tFCBZmc13tLvvWdWhCjckUmSAlPCqA00uqoQ1lvPPqrW0i RpfmSKUPqlxZ+T2IxSUTbv+4J6tcAOS9TVFC4v6g= Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [188.241.98.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: sm.codenetworks.net) by relayout10-dsp.dominioabsoluto.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4bz4QT5ky0z9r58; Fri, 8 Aug 2025 15:20:17 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Santiago Martinez List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 15:20:07 +0200 Message-Id: References: Cc: Sulev-Madis Silber , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: To: vermaden X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (22F76) X-PostalOut-Country: IP: 188.241.98.146 | Country: ES X-PostalOut-Information: AntiSPAM and AntiVIRUS on relayout10 X-PostalOut-MsgID: 4bz4QT5ky0z9r58.A89B9 X-PostalOut-SpamCheck: no es spam, clean X-PostalOut-From: sm@codenetworks.net X-PostalOut-Watermark: 1755264018.27199@8HQ80WOZjRoV39jWgzJphQ X-Spam-Status: No X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bz4Qb035cz3ZZJ X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16371, ipnet:217.116.24.0/21, country:ES] Hi Vermaden, I really like your proposed approach. At least , we should have a target for the pkg command. The target can be li= ke (base / non-base ) , defaulting to non-base to avoid breaking current beh= avior. For example =E2=80=9Cpkg upgrade -t base=E2=80=9D, to act on FreeBSD base an= d =E2=80=9Cpkg upgrade=E2=80=9D to perform actions on non-base packages. Now , if then someone comes along and remove all using =E2=80=9Cpkg -t base d= elete -af=E2=80=9D, well it=E2=80=99s his/her problem.=20 For me the issues is not only doing a delete all and bricking the system , b= ut also making an upgrade which might contain a base package without noticin= g. It=E2=80=99s easy not to see it if you have many packages installed. On the other hand, if we do touch the base system, using the target base or a= ny other mechanism , we should also make a good use of the boot environment=E2= =80=99s infrastructure. Best regards=20 Santi > On 8 Aug 2025, at 04:16, vermaden wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOne small 'patch' ... >=20 > - this is not unacceptable to say the least. > + this is unacceptable to say the least. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Temat: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature > Data: 2025-08-08 3:37 > Nadawca: "vermaden" <vermaden@interia.pl> > Adresat: "Sulev-Madis Silber" <freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.= pri.ee>; "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" <freebsd-current@freebsd.org>; fre= ebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org; freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org; >=20 >>=20 >>> OK, Colin Percival just announced 15.0-PRERELEASE - yet > the PKGBASE concept - besides 'kinda working' - does not holds to the POLA= > principle at all - and if anyone will chose to use PKGBASE instead of > 'classic' install the 'pkg delete -af' will not only delete all the third > party packages but will also WIPE almost ENTIRE BASE SYSTEM of FreeBSD ...= > this is not unacceptable to say the least. >>=20 >> My 'vote' here does not changed. >>=20 >> Lets keep pkg(8) for third party packages with: >> - /etc/pkg >> - /usr/local/etc/pkg >> - /var/db/pkg >>=20 >> Lets have pkgbase(8) for FreeBSD Base System PKGBASE with: >> - /etc/pkgbase >> - /usr/local/etc/pkgbase >> - /var/db/pkgbase >>=20 >> Its literally the same 'separation' as the Base System for binaries: >> - /bin >> - /usr/bin >> - /sbin >> - /usr/sbin >>=20 >> And /usr/local PREFIX for third party packages as: >> - /usr/local/bin >> - /usr/local/sbin >>=20 >> Regards, >> vermaden >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Temat: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature >> Data: 2025-08-07 2:10 >> Nadawca: "Sulev-Madis Silber" > <freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.pri.ee> >> Adresat: freebsd-current@freebsd.org; >>=20 >>>=20 >>>> what linux distros do here? extra options to avoid >> deleting the basic things like kernel and minimal userland utils? if > you >> happen to make way too broad package deletion. i don't think linux >> sysadmins want it either. even if you consider linux moving faster and > with >> less seatbelts ("allow shit like that" (c) vermaden). it's not pkg > fault it >> does wipe system clean if you asked it. also, des@ reminded me that > pkg >> replaced older tracking system 12 years ago. yet, i see pkg production >> versions being released just recently with a bug that user immediately >> notices. it was fixed because oops humans make mistakes. but it would > be a >> horror if pkg does those things when it manages the entire system. > granted, >> you can always boot at least external media when any "nuclear" pkg > update >> comes out. this one wasn't but... and one could say that pkgbase is >> extensively discussed everywhere. but we still have discussions like > this >> here. even fights. what if you miss all those? i never knew 32bit is > on the >> way out until i happened to randomly read that warning from kernel > boot >> log. there are number of those things in fbsd. happened earlier, > happened >> lately. maybe it's inevitable. were you scared to install new major > version >> like 5 or 13 right away because who knows what will happen? luckily > there >> are 2, sometimes 3 majors to choose from should some of them include > rushed >> in late changes that turned out to be buggy. it feels like it got > worse >> lately. i mean more changes, more breaks. i don't know why this isn't >> confined to current or stable. those are annoying type of changes. >> hopefully pkgbase will not be switched on before it's done. but pkg > for >> ports still has issues and it's now default package manager here. > feels >> like too much hassle. there are many changes, i mean. good, but extra > fuzz. >> drm for gpus, wifi driver changes, wifi adapter firmware loading > changes. >> all with somebody complaining that (s)he didn't know there was > breaking >> change. i don't have had reason to run -af and not checking either but > if >> you had habit of doing that, it would be similar to rm ~ catching the > / >> along too. unsure what the fix is. (userland) utils and kernel > printing it >> out to console? over longer period of time? i mean i could understand > that >> change was discussed "everywhere", meetings, mailing lists. it would > still >> be missed. if i make something, which i only tried once, and publish > it, i >> would never expect them to be aware of changes i make. because release >> notes, changelogs, those don't get attention. and you can still miss > stuff. >> i once told that correct procedure is to check everything throughly > and >> then upgrade, but i have passed this myself often. and have gotten >> "fallouts" too. in fbsd the only thing i would need to stand back, > squint >> and duck is when booting new current. when pkgbase gets out in > installer, >> i expect it to still have issues and i would rather stand back and > watch >> this "nuke" going off. because it does make radical changes. one of > most >> wtf is that now one needs to deal /etc in new ways. and if those > differ >> from mergemaster or etcupdate, it would make somebody mad. perhaps > even >> worse than i could. in my mind, changes are good. if they are > reasonable. >> and known. probably knowing is biggest issue. what if one misses all > those >> 10 different places? i never checked, does freebsd-update tell that > pkgbase >> is coming? does buildworld, maybe installworld tell that? that i > actually >> used and i don't see it. because those are like places where you see > it. i >> can't recall if ports warned of pkgng coming soon? i also prefer if > those >> messages would include plans and not final decisions to make a change. > i >> haven't tries pkgbase myself, maybe i will, maybe i don't. unsure what > fix >> is. maybe start putting things right into where everyone sees it. > unsure. >> and if i were you, whoever leads pkgbase initiative in "high castle" > (it >> does feel like this!), i would not let users delete base with -af. > it's >> rather unusual anyway and i don't think not deleting would get people > as >> mad as deleting stuff. i can't recall what was it, was it repo manager > on >> linux distro or something else but something wanted you to write whole >> sentence, observing caps and so on. then it executed that irreversible >> operation. in my systems, i've been configured things to ask date > & times >> when i really wanted to not do anything stupid. that would get > somebody's >> brain working and maybe they interrupt their autopilot mode if they > didn't >> actually want it. trust me, deleting freebsd-kernel, removing > freebsd-bin, >> pkg-bootstrap... isn't what you want to see, then it's too late. and > yes, >> add echos to installworld end and freebsd-update if it's not there > already >> because that's what people see >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On August 7, 2025 1:21:32 AM GMT+03:00, vermaden >> wrote: >>>> So You still do not understand ... >>>>=20 >>>> The pkg(8) command works fine - its just NOT SUPPOSE to DESTROY most >> of the FreeBSD Base System - because FreeBSD is not Linux to allow > shit >> like that ... >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Temat: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature >>>> Data: 2025-08-07 0:13 >>>> Nadawca: "Ceri Davies" <ceri@submonkey.net> >>>> Adresat: "vermaden" <vermaden@interia.pl>; >>>> DW: FreeBSD-pkgbase@freebsd.org; freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org; >> freebsd-current@freebsd.org; freebsd-stable@freebsd.org; >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>>>> On 6 Aug 2025, at 22:54, vermaden wrote: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> =EF=BB=BF >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> No, it has the same behaviour. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> English is not my primary language so I will try to explain in >>> more >>>>> simple words as you probably did not understood. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> NOPE. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> It DOES NOT has the same behavior. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> In each case it forcibly deletes all the packages from your >> system, >>>>> like you asked. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I understood you fine, I just disagree that this is a shocking >>> result >>>>> when you have specified the =E2=80=9Call=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cforce=E2= =80=9D flags. In >> fact >> it is >>>> exactly what that command is documented to do and therefore is very >> far >>>> from a violation of the principle of least astonishment. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Ceri >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 From nobody Fri Aug 8 13:22:44 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bz4TV4Kt9z63qKh for ; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 13:22:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rodrigo@osorio.me) Received: from smtp.osorio.me (mvd.osorio.me [37.187.111.94]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bz4TT5rlBz3c5y for ; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 13:22:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rodrigo@osorio.me) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of rodrigo@osorio.me designates 37.187.111.94 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=rodrigo@osorio.me; dmarc=none Received: from [192.168.1.44] (lfbn-idf1-1-971-net.w86-238.abo.wanadoo.fr [86.238.50.0]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (secp384r1) server-digest SHA384) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.osorio.me (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 99055EEB62 for ; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 13:35:36 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <79071b68-4e4a-4cdf-8633-8aa8faabafd2@osorio.me> Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 15:22:44 +0200 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: ssh errors, libgssapi_krb5 To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <701d3288-4aec-47bd-b7e2-4ee49bab3f2e@betaapp.fastmail.com> <20250728180314.2BFB328C@slippy.cwsent.com> Content-Language: en-US From: Rodrigo Osorio In-Reply-To: <20250728180314.2BFB328C@slippy.cwsent.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.03 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.96)[-0.957]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.93)[0.927]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.20)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:37.187.111.94]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[rodrigo]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16276, ipnet:37.187.0.0/16, country:FR]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[osorio.me]; ARC_NA(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bz4TT5rlBz3c5y X-Spamd-Bar: - On 28/07/25 20:03, Cy Schubert wrote: > In message , Lexi Winter writes: >> Herbert: >>> On Mon, 28 Jul 2025, at 15:32, Lexi Winter wrote: >>>> dlopen: Cannot open "/usr/lib/libgssapi_krb5.so.121" >>>> git@git.le-fay.org: Permission denied (publickey,gssapi-with-mic). >>> =20 >>> Have you rebuilt ports like curl, git, etc.? >> this isn't related to ports, it happens with /usr/bin/ssh as well. >> i probably should have mentioned that. >> >> but oddly, after rebuilding main with no changes and updating again, ssh >> now works fine. >> >> but i don't really understand what broke it to begin with... what causes >> ssh to load libgssapi_something? > The DSO bump broke gssapi/mech. The mech file was updated last night to > point to the current DSO. > > Hi, I fall in the same issue and multiple ports still asking for 121 version. As Herbert suggest, I think impacted ports revision should be bumped to force recompilation. What @portmgr think about how to solve this issue ? regards, -- rodrigo From nobody Fri Aug 8 13:33:06 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bz4jc1XcMz63qsF for ; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 13:33:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-yb1-xb30.google.com (mail-yb1-xb30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b30]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bz4jb3zSRz3fYW for ; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 13:33:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-yb1-xb30.google.com with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-e8e014c1d19so1743164276.3 for ; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 06:33:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; t=1754660000; x=1755264800; darn=freebsd.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=o3rlmAGxCTtLhkzJm8I0WqCdk4J69PyuC8M6VAE1sDA=; b=ZyEcmK7DAQy4vIdMo4SsHgcZ98GsJQ7+VXXA5CN4KdKeqXTjjB9yrBkNh7WIHAvA7j iHzG4fr/wpqap57jqnmtqndpWWjh1BKEolCnuW60uWIERo6d1VZIm65wXJI74WO3yJiw iOAiQu0zPt4d2j02VZAWCqawvmDIbwf0ca8/GIPpqmdiUTl3VE7wmAez2H8k6+5+3H94 AclO3F7NLaeglb/7BpfkyP/q54IjGNOITcpdoDP7UbW6oXo3zI9odA8BMY6UDhB9MTCk DQtqGRMe2+qRRibWay5JXeAhyV087QhYGzmNtK4VlXnF2D3MHsgH+RlEiuSIFE1dDtZK r6CQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1754660000; x=1755264800; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=o3rlmAGxCTtLhkzJm8I0WqCdk4J69PyuC8M6VAE1sDA=; b=cAd0hIYn5clebp5a+zENEg9QB9eL0e+Qc91oztxhKzVQKXM7Ke6im0xzjae+X58DLB npAU14uL4EkjWMumcUkj4atSd0z5Dk5RiJ2yGmhznhaqtUF8MMIYhOHDUTPiAz83UV4r 7kfhrMqzJZKQ57xCQIiTlPSMvNaLTs0y6YS0bd9BAFmAr+k1z5e8V+4icEGQ3+HSo7bR fo5SFdDHzOhYFiYYvfhHgY6CycK139T/U27DOao+wSv8XqLvYXy3fw0FRBkaxWHGgstO pXXva6Buczjh6N1iMPRVCyL1gNB0O7F4qD27LYiCLBzsEfAE/RjJXPfS3FvA/73EnnBP xZCg== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCU6/dRPz81UlhuLEByQIzzu3eFHKrMfE039mXrMsxQMEFzDwP93BGdiF7z/+baD7LU7oH/b2yeMEnwBLVdIiEU=@freebsd.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwHDrIcbLmyoofLJsM+4LwI1nRy0Ch280O+puDEp5EoJbIv2JZO u9SfrwljY4Rw/0sBYvwS7yG4ZgSB7icUmJORl+zDU6okr+5lK9cjhSESfWC+I0kqMg== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncvhMZz5ceBRL1ls0qXpEDCkySL3cA73KvsUJeXK0fgKZRQFku+WTx+9jf1gJhb aM5f+lnuxNUyAlZ/cgU6stwKLseAysXx6qfKpCgjx8G5HkeOJ8uAZnte10ngE06npw6GDfl+KOK LYCO/HW9Tth6VrMRhHLBSNz/40ARyV4+MXpSpBUBzIyAXMY81fZRZEkvY2TptoCDQDCDiISyRp2 QM/BOBJYixJyds8/JtbCEjXc/F//clIaZEcbLvIXog0sqI0IQx/2bctl9XpNdzIqTh0WNNYTp3u krc/gvML2w7z3voDAeE6CX5pvyhGbGzm4EuCWz5AetoXypnU0kD8Y05G2yrCvZX4RAcL07BGZDJ 4lthQF4YWlZTlDTm2LIoIW3cBMIYcjt5Z+CRb0MabJ3qOjhUmsVj5l96Ky1M= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IG1jeIbf3+4v/M/BF0ZmMiHHK2Z56RSQf3xg0lG3HiMohN9du3qK/F/NQLxUCN2Q4ukF3hKoQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6902:288b:b0:e8b:c3bf:ff92 with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-e904b632f14mr3194024276.30.1754660000396; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 06:33:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-f181.google.com (mail-yb1-f181.google.com. [209.85.219.181]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 3f1490d57ef6-e8fd38912b6sm7207327276.37.2025.08.08.06.33.19 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 08 Aug 2025 06:33:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-f181.google.com with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-e7311e66a8eso1924064276.2; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 06:33:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCUOEBFT7LmZyNclJus0ANTtPW45CBGG/Mp8SCDoMpxFOm0R+qGEflzFC9im6QjTDwm11eDatpmOFQ==@freebsd.org, AJvYcCUvVH0X5F5I1OhJlXQDDrZSIIlXIvdw5kBDTaUCkCiQ9dveWxWWXkxLsns6sYYU4/FaARlp2fHWT75M8w6Cjfm/@freebsd.org, AJvYcCVu+Y4qRprC/o3pbimyjmgGBfhvIFehiVaQzKMWmhN2sgVmB5HuNa0vtLgRZUtKEnXiRo3L76fqA0+lLVpZ47mf@freebsd.org, AJvYcCX+gazQSP4tT4by4mpinlMWPDqTc7SGOY5I1Dn0Q/WF+XBgxa0PXNjtabtmGUMUH09+JxJ44EKYBPkEPQn12oU=@freebsd.org X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:9691:b0:71a:41be:133 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-71bf0d3d579mr38267507b3.14.1754659998762; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 06:33:18 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <864iui3si5.fsf@ltc.des.dev> In-Reply-To: <864iui3si5.fsf@ltc.des.dev> From: Tomek CEDRO Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 15:33:06 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: X-Gm-Features: Ac12FXzqGzywySf5FkzDPcBmw7sfFlLK0wkARrY_ubvcey09Eqtam1ogQHAskrY Message-ID: Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature To: =?UTF-8?Q?Dag=2DErling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= Cc: Tomek CEDRO , Colin Percival , vermaden , Sulev-Madis Silber , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bz4jb3zSRz3fYW X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 2:30=E2=80=AFPM Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav wrote: > > Tomek CEDRO writes: > > Not really. So far "the FreeBSD standard" kept things "similar" for > > over 30 years. If we traveled back/forward in time we would still use > > the same approach to configure and run stuff. Maybe except pkg-add was > > replaced with pkg, but still all locations are the same, configuration > > files format, ports build, etc. > > I'm sorry but that's pure fantasy. In the last 30 years, we've switched > our init system twice, the main system configuration moved from > /etc/sysconfig to /etc/rc.conf, and we later added /etc/rc.conf.d and > per-service subdirectories. The ports tree is also completely different > from what it was 15 years ago, let alone 30: we've switched to staged, > unprivileged builds, we've added USES and FLAVOR, we switched the > primary identifier from the origin to PKGNAME, we switched to pkg (which > is a much bigger change than you seem to realize)... If anything, the > separation between base and ports is stronger now than ever, because we > used to allow ports to install files outside of ${LOCALBASE} and even > replace parts of the base system. Yes, but from user perspective these changes were easy to adapt to :-) > Packaged base has been in the works for a decade and it's going in. > There are rough edges, but we'll sort them out and the end result will > be much, much easier to manage for everybody than what we have now. By > the time FreeBSD 16.0 comes around, it will be second nature, and you > will have a hard time remembering what the fuss was all about. Looks like 15 will be a "great adventure", that just started with a pre-release and early testing feedback. I hope it turns out well in the end, as planned, I believe you know what you are doing, I really keep my fingers crossed, good luck guys :-) Maybe its just worth considering putting EOL to 14 after 16.1 is out? :-P > > > [...] packages installed from ports might depend on packages from > > > the base system [...] > > This statement is extremely dangerous. It touches clue of this > > discussion. It seems to reveal planning to totally break current > > FreeBSD design / architecture? So far "base" could work without > > "userland", provided consistent, coherent, and predictable working > > environment. Everyone had the same set of "base" tools where > > "userland" could be built on top, so every system could be different > > but had exactly the same base. I can see that "base" will not be > > coherent for everyone anymore. If ports start depending on base > > packages then circular dependencies will arise and this will be a > > Linux-like-mess, because there could be different versions of base > > packages for different port versions that will depend on different > > versions of base packages. Then all will be just a package and there > > will be no "coherent FreeBSD base" anymore right? Then 14-RELEASE will > > hit end-of-lie and people will be _forced_ to switch to 15-RELEASE or > > move away to different BSD. This sounds like FreeBSD is going full > > Linux :-( > > It's bad form to quote a large paragraph without summarizing, but this > is so unhinged I couldn't figure out what to cut. It's completely off > the wall, starting with the use of =E2=80=9Cuserland=E2=80=9D, a well-est= ablished term > meaning =E2=80=9Ccode that isn't part of the kernel=E2=80=9D, to mean... = something else > that I can't quite figure out. But also, there is nothing circular at > all about ports depending on base. That's the way it's always been, > even if we didn't explicitly record it in package metadata (apart from > the shlib login in recent versions of pkg). Its just fear, outlined by a speculation, sure, we don't know how this story ends, but this fear is shared and expressed here by many folks, that FreeBSD may turn into Linux, a place where lots of us been and never want to come back, not to mention any commercial closed source OS :-) Maybe a (wiki?) reference page with clear outline of benefits, goals, identified problems, and todos would cut all those speculations? Thanks! :-) Tomek ps/2: will this pkgbase allow running 15/16 on 2MB Flash and 8MB RAM router= ? :D --=20 CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From nobody Fri Aug 8 13:42:04 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bz4vd5byJz63rqN for ; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 13:42:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bz4vd4K1Mz3jg2; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 13:42:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754660525; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=VVt9Pc8HBMRfZk6LftakD51kpKaxdwHYEyFUAC9LFQ8=; b=foSSPWEi+NROaCAdFb54ZuoUR7FaqHX4GqbsVNy7SuIoJLiBW1NRTaVfocSKExB+7xkM1k W5BhS/jFeU5rcTlzXrLCJ9XqbMVKdoIk+JmnuN912kEFep3WPFDbp5CdN/Q5z4yoJ0MfJV 4pv6e0WDd+r8/8rQDtwYE+Foaasjh/79YjujatxaipOl15IlKiM3uQ+t1Kbto6yUXsIGfs a29/O8LLPYh8bddgJD1gYIMCfJn8KY1deRyY5Hl31vUaBUXMYIemyswzgiMCsQULnuOsL0 e+aMyFKtZ4BKBzYE1515iw3HiYnqBAjxNN89nCFYDj8bJvFYMFkaOY5BUDiAhg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754660525; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=VVt9Pc8HBMRfZk6LftakD51kpKaxdwHYEyFUAC9LFQ8=; b=QOb8JeAnIUIDeGNhhqvlzzLdrfiNDPO6hwk8q+AJUvrtuNep7n7jFZOzna7EGm/6N5rEbB waC5RsadyGVUN7RzbRQDWey6ne0xWdgxfvBeRYsD7YxrDjnj0KBLm1sLJ4k50H5g+NNGqM y6bJ8vF/BS6JlYRYt8Dv/jTDrdStUacBfSIe6/+VUYcB6OyDDMcDMdPMt9zZcBGvadAHRf bnluFHwTs0s3dxY3cqBjpwT6ydSIADh4yHRcrChyrBPR5HQDAY/myFc35xo8N25GZ34tS+ ARN/u9KNHUVsALvhyu1xPgY8RaIpAtnfrh761E0b95kb4rWFVjyDJuvTbaLqcA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1754660525; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=HdExyqn3SuwoQf+ZkaWBDidzvC1CZdDW8cCjbWwS5oq2T3yNNeFKzz4NX8YaMSz0LQRFSp nWpfZqB+1tlHr48RYE0WPZcLHCBj7xVhIoJ9CEXA6JmVLUpj+cdUr6Uj/dJj7Mxn7vt8/V jc00d620mX79kt0uhpViHD0L1sFM4FcLOoBz8GMtQ41Hbi4xpnN0xtLlOPhVTR/00oVX7d IlH5NCinNSyRQW1f0gA7rJdnRwcpgdaxtHNaWuLZfrFfWJTBI3q4vAy6c49eeHF/M7377P xzQbODyooJblz4DU9FGkZxPCIheprAXZU22cxazPDo7YMM95954kwFEVeed1LQ== Received: from ltc.des.dev (unknown [IPv6:2a01:e0a:c54:bed0:922e:16ff:fef1:acef]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: des) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4bz4vd3Bl5zJN1; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 13:42:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) Received: by ltc.des.dev (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 3FED312A27; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 15:42:04 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Rodrigo Osorio Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ssh errors, libgssapi_krb5 In-Reply-To: <79071b68-4e4a-4cdf-8633-8aa8faabafd2@osorio.me> (Rodrigo Osorio's message of "Fri, 8 Aug 2025 15:22:44 +0200") References: <701d3288-4aec-47bd-b7e2-4ee49bab3f2e@betaapp.fastmail.com> <20250728180314.2BFB328C@slippy.cwsent.com> <79071b68-4e4a-4cdf-8633-8aa8faabafd2@osorio.me> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2025 15:42:04 +0200 Message-ID: <86tt2i2amr.fsf@ltc.des.dev> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rodrigo Osorio writes: > I fall in the same issue and multiple ports still asking for > 121 version. As Herbert suggest, I think impacted ports revision > should be bumped to force recompilation. Updating the poudriere jail already forces a rebuild of all ports, afaik the problem is that the jail hasn't been updated because incremental builds are broken and nobody thought to just blow away its obj tree. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@FreeBSD.org From nobody Fri Aug 8 13:42:47 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bz4wT3D6tz63s6Z; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 13:42:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bz4wS6cJTz3knX; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 13:42:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754660568; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=F0xP/VmsaNjInQrTgywMp4J0RX9Jmb7LpoTYXJyR5TA=; b=bdsnFp+95gxLIttqJJ1yxi8UjZbN4Ey1s7S9/DNbGi6FHMEwMXBOEjkp9+G3c7BZyK5Jcr hMzCZuexMGS+mcSZPYoeAD3lYyceX1e6TwkDp1R9MaSLRwtI9bMSOkF1wUAQ1eWzVrK27R +InEa+O1aoqZdkP0rv6yPxN6/NNg/LGAxMqwBCWQoPXTRrY4+MGgPSERaOKFznfqUb/7Sd O07i2vIwsOe5MtXpH+0/lTm/bwbhLNi5U4htvHme4zpDbEbxR5QgMKfHWtXmjeHE4l8WX9 w9qB5xTeJI6fDNuVfKagRgND1l9RqRkwlLZdSB/yKb6MenRRoqBJh8NJ/kshHA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754660568; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=F0xP/VmsaNjInQrTgywMp4J0RX9Jmb7LpoTYXJyR5TA=; b=PSDoLwrN0wC+xJS0tVKZtBafdVYLqenn0TS4nNnwaZSx7VbJch5ADCxolBE8s9olY5b6iF YcRc/vgMzku04AfiUo1gbdb9xSZT3zDy0hnv/oUwN5DOPKAkFd+issifffKMbLY6xxzEqO aV2CNntt6gBkTrrkIJimfwN8CLKuusmfnLbCXzDICtzqlnzdubDd5cqp3A8+RHmb8tA6f4 6B4wSTDy0qxByyjegbaRAOLJptV79LwN0FpUuTYrpc5NeP0owRlOC9JKanPPnSImLr+Ay6 9ac6WmP1q+bzCaeCwSy6GcvuhxUoeUj2n0WjQ/11xB1G909nmg3Z9hxtKl1zOQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1754660568; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=Ip9c4yFTDinveVYnwxULdfuW9dfMX40UuGKsF5mSppOY+HriqS+JuLG6LMydvfl1wGIpJV 8e1M+PaBSsE6nTSHgDBHQJyHmZQ0KqxdZPn2NEJIFN7XwbH/Tm38TvGS5rp1WEqC4mnf8z EaL9kJyFMMLAYqpythI1IFeHxb6DZaPbLNl2vxTbnKDRXP8lYu82ANWHQbaqNQnsKW+Wcz sQVTwa3HS+pJHCcluNmRChXDHdt6GFCdYhOMNYGL7D9RJmGnBwLs9p2Locklaqs2dMswvW L47qvrMgaKiS7NZc9RSV44YjTtBcD0XTdNjZNIFw8sT1FwJceqy4idkS4uUDpw== Received: from ltc.des.dev (unknown [IPv6:2a01:e0a:c54:bed0:922e:16ff:fef1:acef]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: des) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4bz4wS5JhGzJkj; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 13:42:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) Received: by ltc.des.dev (Postfix, from userid 1001) id A0C87125F3; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 15:42:47 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Tomek CEDRO Cc: Colin Percival , vermaden , Sulev-Madis Silber , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature In-Reply-To: (Tomek CEDRO's message of "Fri, 8 Aug 2025 15:33:06 +0200") References: <864iui3si5.fsf@ltc.des.dev> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2025 15:42:47 +0200 Message-ID: <86pld62alk.fsf@ltc.des.dev> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tomek CEDRO writes: > [...] from user perspective these changes were easy to adapt to :-) So will this one. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@FreeBSD.org From nobody Fri Aug 8 13:47:34 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bz52C0hkLz63sTL; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 13:47:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bz52C04xSz3nfQ; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 13:47:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754660867; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=3/Zdxs5PDDCk1BpZK5RRj24WhgMeXeMO/jACZd6YPZ0=; b=Dz1wRT9nKMrjhvdnvKCvUZCVZS0xMqs6WP/OOJcM09q0NcwTeWOjpkUqi/BJe9IQbLR8wf lxkelvfmdjHaIJ6Uqp5qo8o0ZSsaSnIdpvlt0VnC54oGEYe8gTsOGJAySLX+j0VuBO46O8 GbLkqXfZ4419pvlau9UsSBeX/Jwd1pEsSfjHReZPgHufBu3g26MH7yRSnQBKMYDA3IXMHe rp+bpsdUNLQ432bVYG0P2XQartuDN9DdHchXw+uLoeX7WAnHYII0PIbHGe10gfuTTzCKHk q4h6AUKjdu88yJdU7SlaWCSbqfMIUan3qJIcxVpZk9PnRv1T7pq9nBc2/cVO3Q== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754660867; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=3/Zdxs5PDDCk1BpZK5RRj24WhgMeXeMO/jACZd6YPZ0=; b=E0KAOA0FAd3GSrfynbbYtB9iDnYjJfQ5uLnZGIIBjdc1Z4/1B8E3syG+ujU9zoQjKRDJdC isv3XBK/HpHOVAlQIYDB/7sSCnksAcaNBI0hlw1FJSQMncS+SXNuYAgLcKRY/aQV82M3nX BE/slcb4TfljcuhGxjpyC+de+BPQq1GcClBFDocg5bbTnhaUMIB+OKOZd/GqIAMyGdR8+b VCPm+GucAheegVrtc8Etbs6+W33BE9wD2li6pufcGI5i2HUsILUdtWlilbd8/jr9FBVDkh OUeMazwnkNLlV4pxiQbBv+TpfAWUnYktyBUKVwtshG+m4m5ZDXTDIiXuxWj7Ng== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1754660867; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=qHylkzfIV/SfBDWTiOJ0gZAy6kN1CcO8yNMjnYdVO1PQwVKpzRHxCRuEs3sw7HgfAgZcCS tTMpKgE/J0YLGN5JMYkTZzJMGhRqpM5guc71Coxv4hcKITGTxXMCaTeCHRRbUafrksC7Vm knvZRHOA1KSohmIrIvHb5pg5h88lgniNjwxPFWpLEeGCaggUif0DS03PtW8g8oY7dfg5P/ bTfD4c5UtxMoHh0iQzBdji4V3lr+oKqlADebQu9Nx3ba21GRO1rsDOAXZwc8UZG6yXky5z sW5gAM2DxevQ6JSGNTSg/Vr+xi9mYB1mepLxGt1EIfsP5yLK9kKcaGk761aduw== Received: from smtp.theravensnest.org (smtp.theravensnest.org [45.77.103.195]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: theraven) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4bz52B6NsczJ7R; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 13:47:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtpclient.apple (host86-143-41-189.range86-143.btcentralplus.com [86.143.41.189]) by smtp.theravensnest.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 08037BD2; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 14:47:45 +0100 (BST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3776.700.51.11.1\)) Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature From: David Chisnall In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 14:47:34 +0100 Cc: vermaden , Sulev-Madis Silber , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <79429D6B-7948-4D27-9F14-664CC075547A@FreeBSD.org> References: To: Santiago Martinez X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3776.700.51.11.1) On 8 Aug 2025, at 14:20, Santiago Martinez wrote: >=20 > For example =E2=80=9Cpkg upgrade -t base=E2=80=9D, to act on FreeBSD = base and =E2=80=9Cpkg upgrade=E2=80=9D to perform actions on non-base = packages. You are assuming that there are two repositories. Since its = introduction, `pkg` has supported an unlimited number of repositories, = and in a pkgbase world, I=E2=80=99d expect large-scale systems to have = four: - Packages built from base. - Packages built from ports that are tied to the kernel version. - Packages built from ports that are expected to work across all of the = supported base systems in a major release series. - Packages built from other sources for local deployment. The last three exist today even without pkgbase. There may also be = other third-party (non-ports) package sets. You can already act on a specific repository by passing -r to `pkg`. = The thing you seem to want is for *some* actions to not apply to all = repositories. I think that will lead to far more confusion in the long = term. For example: If I do `pkg upgrade`, do you expect everything to be upgraded? I do. = And if it doesn=E2=80=99t, I expect there will be a lot of confusion = because a minor release dropping out of the support window will change = the minimum requirements for the base system and so failing to upgrade = base-system packages will cause breakage in packages built from ports. =20= So if we avoid that breakage, and say that `pkg upgrade` applies to all = packages, but `pkg delete -a` doesn=E2=80=99t. Now we have = inconsistency across subcommands. And that=E2=80=99s also confusing. David From nobody Fri Aug 8 13:56:18 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bz5DG4Dzvz63tLh; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 13:56:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bz5DG3TnBz3rrh; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 13:56:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754661390; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=ft8koDpOl+Y3sKv9dtzjy4W6q9I4f/gC5BBQ+EhC6y4=; b=BliUzyOeDAHFvxzpQhbnrWMSGVXYZmbtKS0cbQL9gOST+AHa6UZZY2ZOLIEXT+ClEOmhu5 y31JJrlqE8CUdqwblXYpDMWgbq4iY/t6X2vQNit24hPck1nKjPdZpVx/bXv9dpd2cS5WGV rSybF4Km0jPAvYq2WDHyWorrQBRRXeomEGJszu2VC3Am9J9XgLrikVacSPS+q/ZKy68ouo qmUlhF3D2MK7jJkv79uWOwy2VWjWThCW0y2wzKHXPhrWaaDJwu6vmDwg4lWpKBLAVlo9/Q m1PlWk54EE2NUyTyo3DPUDUwPuZZCZLV38EXfH5XydgD+XJ0lJELnsgJ8M5ekQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754661390; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=ft8koDpOl+Y3sKv9dtzjy4W6q9I4f/gC5BBQ+EhC6y4=; b=Xn9AurQ5Qh8ZF/ylE0pgxH0bgZwiZa3kcAiXnupuqCPvBrn9shvedssbxgXHP4ILxxoecx zzCbXg90sDgNx1qX5a1nl70PfyhGiuT8iLPOJfGhfD4GsVtiGg24tlhz5piU0Q7llr+3WW VTO0X7DbtxmdmjFYNsEfWrZUHruUYzN0lcB9hNxzmPLCrmwZi9gPdIgLuusWC2RjjJoydl Y10slb3wfErED0+htC0FhEto4fdcY+cqiajN1kVhHnArAKYoOegWXxMfzOCAD3gCWM6CjV CCvEwKuGzrKPTh5JaRDtHuuYhjhlKU9dHoKCDV0X6fq92mN4fsteKCZfzKf6AA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1754661390; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=w9IbVfteds4VCdRcoo7xdiINd6bDfiKkXRrgolDv2X1fwYLnROJEKmxuH+Wv6k8NN0rfJM jhLqCHUs7dGWLaukP9LJRR7JyaDr8AU8Qz7ud6WhmVKW+wduNhSg9qJ04Ind+ZjjEN0Yz+ 56+nAD4w6uerNg0X3gKFdsFd7knbnIY4m72tlze/kzJ9FxnlB7QgUM/cGsyTpLXxYUtr0Y AuIp3xm6GvSdXJx1Y08bIza63WMnygAgayjUutzw4B2L7T9vjPg/rbZ+FhR02aanA1Gxj1 TEpAGicbuiBMbwfe8pHr1AHPOydme9sgtO2r9hszarrT/x3l54ohB/wOA3okSw== Received: from smtp.theravensnest.org (smtp.theravensnest.org [45.77.103.195]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: theraven) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4bz5DG2sjDzJkr; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 13:56:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtpclient.apple (host86-143-41-189.range86-143.btcentralplus.com [86.143.41.189]) by smtp.theravensnest.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 88B1BBD3; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 14:56:29 +0100 (BST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3776.700.51.11.1\)) Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature From: David Chisnall In-Reply-To: <86pld62alk.fsf@ltc.des.dev> Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 14:56:18 +0100 Cc: Tomek CEDRO , Colin Percival , vermaden , Sulev-Madis Silber , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0CC405ED-BCFC-41AD-A487-5261421BF8A6@FreeBSD.org> References: <864iui3si5.fsf@ltc.des.dev> <86pld62alk.fsf@ltc.des.dev> To: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3776.700.51.11.1) On 8 Aug 2025, at 14:42, Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav = wrote: >=20 > Tomek CEDRO writes: >> [...] from user perspective these changes were easy to adapt to :-) >=20 > So will this one. Let=E2=80=99s remember the thing that started this entire thread: `pkg = delete -af` This is an *incredibly* stupid thing to do. Long before pkg came along, = I did the equivalent of this and managed to lock myself out of a = headless box by doing this because I forgot that I was using the ports = version of openssh instead of the base one. There are lots of other ways that deleting all packages will break your = system. This is why `pkg delete` *shows you a list of packages that it = will delete*, whether you specify `-a` or a single package. If you add `-f`, you are explicitly saying =E2=80=98I know what I am = doing, I don=E2=80=99t need to see the list of packages, I know exactly = what is happening=E2=80=99. To all of the people worrying about this: In the decade since pkg was = introduced, how many times have you *ever* run `pkg delete -af`? My = guess, for 99% of users, the answer is zero. It=E2=80=99s like running = rm -rf without checking what=E2=80=99s in a directory first. This entire long thread is because someone did a large destructive = operation, using a tool that defaults to telling them in detail what it = will do and giving them a chance to stop, and intentionally put the tool = in the mode where it didn=E2=80=99t do that. If that=E2=80=99s the most likely way of accidentally breaking a FreeBSD = system, we=E2=80=99re in an amazing position. I doubt it=E2=80=99s even = in the top 100. David From nobody Fri Aug 8 14:02:47 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bz5Mr1CzVz63tq8; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 14:03:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sm@codenetworks.net) Received: from relayout04-q02.dominioabsoluto.net (relayout04-q02.dominioabsoluto.net [217.116.26.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bz5Mq5Dbgz3vMb; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 14:03:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sm@codenetworks.net) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from relayout04-redir.dominioabsoluto.net (relayout04-redir.dominioabsoluto.net [217.116.26.101]) by relayout04.dominioabsoluto.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bz5Mn10Wbz2ht2; Fri, 8 Aug 2025 16:03:01 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=codenetworks.net; s=domabs; t=1754661781; bh=jMnNHJBPIyadRQ7coB0/mex7Y1xbgWPlVzP8Xl6WVBc=; h=From:Subject:Date:References:Cc:In-Reply-To:To:From; b=pmC1xVNy3bT4XgNAJGNOTsQdwsgZKNmq7hlNPAGFqvGQJMUL/QT+tXwsW4huthC1Y rJy34cCX3nesST+C55XlLkmT+VPd1UGsQYE+WuhbJyic66cm+B3VuBkxivg3FDtBL/ 3s5nby+nkP8hMplsk674O4DAtUp9kQ6ypC1Tb6bs= Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [188.241.98.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: sm.codenetworks.net) by relayout04-dsp.dominioabsoluto.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4bz5Mm0Yg3z3G8l; Fri, 8 Aug 2025 16:03:00 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Santiago Martinez List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 16:02:47 +0200 Message-Id: References: <79429D6B-7948-4D27-9F14-664CC075547A@FreeBSD.org> Cc: vermaden , Sulev-Madis Silber , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <79429D6B-7948-4D27-9F14-664CC075547A@FreeBSD.org> To: David Chisnall X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (22F76) X-PostalOut-Country: IP: 188.241.98.146 | Country: ES X-PostalOut-Information: AntiSPAM and AntiVIRUS on relayout04 X-PostalOut-MsgID: 4bz5Mm0Yg3z3G8l.A9E66 X-PostalOut-SpamCheck: no es spam, clean X-PostalOut-From: sm@codenetworks.net X-PostalOut-Watermark: 1755266581.03946@hWTV5RrFL6dpYAEWjBGzYg X-Spam-Status: No X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bz5Mq5Dbgz3vMb X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16371, ipnet:217.116.24.0/21, country:ES] Hi David, I see your point. For me, no pkg command (upgrade / install : delete / lock) should act on bas= e without the user explicitly targeting base.=20 This is the same we have today. No extra complexity or confusion, actually i= t is quite simple , if you want to touch your base system just explicitly ta= rgeting it ( what we do today with FreeBSD-update) Regarding the non-base package dependencies with base, it will be also the s= ame as today. If this is something we are looking to get rid of then is a di= fferent situation. Nothing stops the user from upgrading base (target base) then upgrading the r= est. Or to have a target that is =E2=80=9Call=E2=80=9D. I think most of the FreeBSD user like the separation of base and non base an= d the current status seems to get rid of it. Hence some of us are putting a= ttention to it ( maybe too much) Santi > On 8 Aug 2025, at 15:47, David Chisnall wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 8 Aug 2025, at 14:20, Santiago Martinez w= rote: >>=20 >> For example =E2=80=9Cpkg upgrade -t base=E2=80=9D, to act on FreeBSD base= and =E2=80=9Cpkg upgrade=E2=80=9D to perform actions on non-base packages. >=20 > You are assuming that there are two repositories. Since its introduction,= `pkg` has supported an unlimited number of repositories, and in a pkgbase w= orld, I=E2=80=99d expect large-scale systems to have four: >=20 > - Packages built from base. > - Packages built from ports that are tied to the kernel version. > - Packages built from ports that are expected to work across all of the su= pported base systems in a major release series. > - Packages built from other sources for local deployment. >=20 > The last three exist today even without pkgbase. There may also be other t= hird-party (non-ports) package sets. >=20 > You can already act on a specific repository by passing -r to `pkg`. The t= hing you seem to want is for *some* actions to not apply to all repositories= . I think that will lead to far more confusion in the long term. For examp= le: >=20 > If I do `pkg upgrade`, do you expect everything to be upgraded? I do. An= d if it doesn=E2=80=99t, I expect there will be a lot of confusion because a= minor release dropping out of the support window will change the minimum re= quirements for the base system and so failing to upgrade base-system package= s will cause breakage in packages built from ports. =20 >=20 > So if we avoid that breakage, and say that `pkg upgrade` applies to all pa= ckages, but `pkg delete -a` doesn=E2=80=99t. Now we have inconsistency acro= ss subcommands. And that=E2=80=99s also confusing. >=20 > David >=20 From nobody Fri Aug 8 14:17:43 2025 X-Original-To: current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bz5hw2dmfz63wWb for ; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 14:17:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from david@catwhisker.org) Received: from mx.catwhisker.org (mx.catwhisker.org [107.204.234.170]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bz5ht2C8sz40sm for ; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 14:17:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from david@catwhisker.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of david@catwhisker.org designates 107.204.234.170 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=david@catwhisker.org; dmarc=none Received: from albert.catwhisker.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by albert.catwhisker.org (8.18.1/8.18.1) with ESMTP id 578EHhUT010358 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2025 14:17:43 GMT (envelope-from david@albert.catwhisker.org) Received: (from david@localhost) by albert.catwhisker.org (8.18.1/8.18.1/Submit) id 578EHheh010357 for current@freebsd.org; Fri, 8 Aug 2025 07:17:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from david) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 07:17:43 -0700 From: David Wolfskill To: current@freebsd.org Subject: Unexpected result from "geli attach" attempt Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: David Wolfskill , current@freebsd.org List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="csAYNpueTlrhLtv4" Content-Disposition: inline X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.37 / 15.00]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.987]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.981]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:107.204.234.170]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[david]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7018, ipnet:107.192.0.0/12, country:US]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[catwhisker.org]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[current@freebsd.org]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROMTLD(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[current@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bz5ht2C8sz40sm X-Spamd-Bar: ----- --csAYNpueTlrhLtv4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable TL;DR: I attempted "/sbin/geli attach -k - /dev/ada0s4j"; result was: geli: Invalid value for 'n' argument: Result too large Background: Yesterday afternoon (UTC-0700), a colleague ... mentioned =2E.. thaht after updating a machine to [that] morning's -current, he was unable to use the Yubikey (that work requires for authentication). While I had updated some machines that day, I had not attempted to do much more than an initial "smoke-test" for head/current -- I normally depend on stable (and had updated stable/14, which was working). So after today's update, I thought I would test the Yubikey under head. So after having updated my laptop from main-n279413-8ae1d55bfcd0 to main-n279471-f4744b8acb93 (which is now called "15.0-PRERELEASE" instead of "15.0-CURRENT"), I needed to mount the (GELI-encrypted) file system on my laptop that I use for work-related stuff. This is something that I have done sufficiently often that it's nearly all "muscle memory" ... in stable/14 (and earlier, in stable/12 and stable/11; probably stable/10, as well, but I wouldn't swear to it). So getting that response from the attempt was ... surprising. And I found the response singularly unhelpful: I have no idea what the source of the complaint is. I see in the code (in src/sbin/geom/core/geom.c, So after having updated my laptop from main-n279413-8ae1d55bfcd0 to main-n279471-f4744b8acb93 (which is now called "15.0-PRERELEASE" instead of "15.0-CURRENT"), I needed to mount the (GELI-encrypted) file system on my laptop that I use for work-related stuff. This is something that I have done sufficiently often that it's nearly all "muscle memory" ... in stable/14 (and earlier, in stable/12 and stable/11; probably stable/10, as well, but I wouldn't swear to it). So getting that response from the attempt was ... surprising. And I found the response singularly unhelpful: I have no idea what the source of the complaint is. I see (in src/sbin/geom/core/geom.c, in set_option()) that the message is emitted from: if (G_OPT_TYPE(opt) =3D=3D G_TYPE_NUMBER) { if (expand_number(val, &number) =3D=3D -1) { err(EXIT_FAILURE, "Invalid value for '%c' argument", opt->go_char); } May I please have the use of a clue? Peace, david --=20 David H. Wolfskill david@catwhisker.org Of course firing the statistician will force the statistics to conform! See https://www.catwhisker.org/~david/publickey.gpg for my public key. --csAYNpueTlrhLtv4 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iNUEARYKAH0WIQSTLzOSbomIK53fjFliipiWhXYx5QUCaJYHB18UgAAAAAAuAChp c3N1ZXItZnByQG5vdGF0aW9ucy5vcGVucGdwLmZpZnRoaG9yc2VtYW4ubmV0OTMy RjMzOTI2RTg5ODgyQjlEREY4QzU5NjI4QTk4OTY4NTc2MzFFNQAKCRBiipiWhXYx 5bbhAQDJACZaHlAs8CbV1nNWuyd7yJOt/fOXujbUoUtvQLh+9QD/cL5+hD/3Rily JG+PppZGjobqJhFwiECmcRSq+9zergk= =S7yB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --csAYNpueTlrhLtv4-- From nobody Fri Aug 8 14:20:40 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bz5mN18GYz63wct; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 14:20:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bz5mM71Twz420J; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 14:20:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754662852; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=GadmaPY9Ot1obF4GytWLao3FT2ViHCL92vuAtXDqc+E=; b=yla1MGqvlj7tqRYRZtcgIyKPGEXL40UnkTK6SRsXuyI+sSy9evrwlclmr7/CgcBIRD6G8H u3eHpLDTHNzOSdUlUEG29LEqNnijQCWSno+9ra/J0K68P763ETMnNwWkUcYyp9Z5j7v7ko w6bT1OHylJ4b4BpucYbCp7qxwGZLpQ1SxKvVUAdO8Oa+jGtzx86vFBb/STX89+RwTIbeM9 n4vz4ceyMziTpK2ltBApfkBlE7V3mlGGy37LfUpRGwuK4THYxNRBJAw6MUYZhmK/sDYcre nKhg2WbOfPKnIIOoHhXUM+trM0ySyrEP1uteL40kMl1FgfRDXmqMSYdUoPCIlA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754662852; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=GadmaPY9Ot1obF4GytWLao3FT2ViHCL92vuAtXDqc+E=; b=M3jzw9YTnyHZtBebee5D619V09txawOiIxTysyigZB068QFxDoffdiikUMlDGhDaZKObH0 Dv5IUbBaw0JnfQGx9L/3nl5sq71bkX3jQo0eHOf9Vp0zOug6/24/UtEwD1Ffj4l/jgmvrz l7GLSGr1xJQnGvWfZn5f0h9PMBQ7PMP/9AbVSzPL1/de1HbcAIk72+qvirrkzRhtBcP8xV gn0fg6t3FR7hdGXoWKkR8IHvbwV9X49sWeVyqRxLSGjZwc9Ae8colYPn0oWHRk14zFZN3G 8IkyN5Rd+DX8hpZ1OvVLDwF9Z3Lt3+cCMhw2mQTNi1TYlPzGlRHgB0i1dkV98w== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1754662852; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=vu8I43CjT0/8o6rCoB4bI5xIc/hJ7UTJZFvF6xTMj+f0Cs0uocGfsa1xkSixVaPcQeTPrN O1taqbOAsP24l4MFjfHcuH2nCQUPm7GjcQ1qfjIrxcOCBXpnjAY0atQk/ZTPa7oUUXLQW8 9A6vvafGIjBtb70JagyUVSHHSXpEMjlj58p1Lh5L65l3a9LbE3FNFOchiRNlQ4FcZREzKk u2QMApdwaeHQYOqHE00lBz2Bje6CchBEiVWli++xKNCfUYDnkBnnb7qEwjkdBxf8QcC+s2 eydfGa9lXGawjTRzXBEPk4QZ5f2TacA9YC3Eh5LHTYKnfqrL+N5BidNvwsKQ5Q== Received: from smtp.theravensnest.org (smtp.theravensnest.org [45.77.103.195]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: theraven) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4bz5mM6FSCzHpY; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 14:20:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtpclient.apple (host86-143-41-189.range86-143.btcentralplus.com [86.143.41.189]) by smtp.theravensnest.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 21B09BD4; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 15:20:51 +0100 (BST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3776.700.51.11.1\)) Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature From: David Chisnall In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 15:20:40 +0100 Cc: vermaden , Sulev-Madis Silber , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7D0CD326-0CB0-41F0-99C2-BFEB9F4DC1EA@FreeBSD.org> References: <79429D6B-7948-4D27-9F14-664CC075547A@FreeBSD.org> To: Santiago Martinez X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3776.700.51.11.1) On 8 Aug 2025, at 15:02, Santiago Martinez wrote: >=20 > Hi David, I see your point. >=20 > For me, no pkg command (upgrade / install : delete / lock) should act = on base without the user explicitly targeting base. Why? > This is the same we have today. No extra complexity or confusion, = actually it is quite simple , if you want to touch your base system just = explicitly targeting it ( what we do today with FreeBSD-update) What is the reason that you would want to install updates for packages = built by ports and *not* want to install updates to the base system? Currently, you need to do these separately because they are managed by = two separate tools, but that=E2=80=99s an accident. It was never a = deliberate usability choice to have different ways of updating different = parts of the system. Fixing this is one of the goals of pkgbase. > Regarding the non-base package dependencies with base, it will be also = the same as today. If this is something we are looking to get rid of = then is a different situation. Fixing this is one of the benefits of pkgbase: there is a single upgrade = command, unless you explicitly restrict what it is updating (via -r) = then it will upgrade everything that is out of date. > Nothing stops the user from upgrading base (target base) then = upgrading the rest. Or to have a target that is =E2=80=9Call=E2=80=9D. This is still possible with pkgbase. If you want to stage things, = simply use the `-r` flag. But when do you *actively want* that? =20 > I think most of the FreeBSD user like the separation of base and non = base and the current status seems to get rid of it. Hence some of us = are putting attention to it ( maybe too much) This is a gross mischaracterisation driven by Vermaden=E2=80=99s love of = hyperbole. No one is removing the distinction between the base system and ports. = The base system remains: - The thing installed in /, not in /usr/local (or whatever else you put = in $LOCALBASE when you build the ports). - A uniform set of things maintained by the project. - The set of things with stable ABI guarantees during a major release. - A self-contained set of things with no external dependencies. - A set of things with a support lifecycle maintained by the FreeBSD = Release Engineering team. Every single one of these properties (and probably others I haven=E2=80=99= t thought of) are preserved. The only difference is that upgrades are = simpler because I have a uniform tool that manages all of the things = that the FreeBSD project distributes (and other things that other people = distribute as package repos). Every upgrade flow I have on every FreeBSD machine I use is simplified = by pkgbase. Having fewer tools is a usability win. Having a single = command upgrade everything is a usability win. If you *want to* upgrade = only some things, that=E2=80=99s one extra command-line flag. David From nobody Fri Aug 8 14:43:50 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bz6H81nqCz63yD1 for ; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 14:44:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.pri.ee) Received: from mail.ketas.si.pri.ee (d004-fea2-0bff-021e-13e8-8437-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee [IPv6:2001:7d0:8437:13e8:21e:bff:fea2:d004]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bz6H725KNz47JP for ; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 14:44:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.pri.ee) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=ketas.si.pri.ee header.s=ketas-si-pri-ee-20240416002854-4096 header.b=UBPQvY4B; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: 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FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.80 / 15.00]; HFILTER_HOSTNAME_5(3.00)[d004-fea2-0bff-021e-13e8-8437-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.998]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[ketas.si.pri.ee,reject]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[ketas.si.pri.ee:s=ketas-si-pri-ee-20240416002854-4096]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.20)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2001:7d0:8437:1300::/56]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:3249, ipnet:2001:7d0::/32, country:EE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[ketas.si.pri.ee:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bz6H725KNz47JP X-Spamd-Bar: / oh people can get a lot worse than this people can get "stupid" users to execute data destructive commands and wat= ch in group as it's deleting right now and later laugh and say why didn't y= ou check=2E as if they won some kind of battle people can say multiple times how others waste their time and they should = pay them or look things up on their own because they don't simply tell them= what they know=2E again, looks like battle for nothing i don't usually need people in my life=2E i don't also feel need to "live = their lives" for them without them wanting it by suggesting that their way = is "wrong" if i make a program with grey background and i later change it to yellow, = perhaps without option to change it, i've made a bad decision for someone e= lse who i don't even care what bg color (s)he likes=2E btw, i hate english = for not allowing me to use genderless words here actually what's good is that every part of fbsd is open=2E you can go and = undo the "kings" decision=2E if you have enough changes locally, and it's p= ast simple configuration, and involves a code too, and others like it too, = now you have created a fork so what's this war about? how many times have you been pissed that data is getting deleted too easil= y? i recall many times=2E while i don't recall times where i need to pass y= et another option to finally get rid of data have you done any woodwork? piece is bit too long and you need to cut it a= gain? vs=2E piece is too short similarly, mains sockets have covers because vfib is bad=2E imagine you te= ll electrician why did you poke finger into contacts, didn't you know it's = dangerous unsure what will happen to fbsd=2E there have been number of changes since= 4=2E6=2E some are good=2E some are bad=2E pkgbase would eliminate need for= a 202 line long src=2Econf with all those without_*'s=2E but then come all= that -af=2E who would be pissed if their system doesn't delete stuff easil= y? i recall linux userland rm having extra length long option for deleting /= =2E our rm iirc was just updated to not ever do this=2E i wonder where's wa= r for both=2E you don't usually do it same here=2E unsure where to draw the line but why not having extra check = if you indeed remove all=2E unsure how many people -af regularly but and indeed, question is about safety=2E i don't like the unnecessary handh= olding type but here it might be good i mean there have been number of things in fbsd what i've been observing q= uietly over years=2E i mean who questions the authority, right, eh=2E=2E=2E= ? all the different things=2E like i told you it's bad, why didn't you list= en=2E or this is good=2E or who made this decision behind my back? at this point, i could maybe change topic to freebsd design decisions and = / or write to different list because i sometimes don't get anymore who needs this os? who uses it? what= features does it need? how many platforms? how long support cycles? embedd= ed or not? oh it's still heading to general good direction i think=2E that's why i'm = here=2E just with ouch this hurts pain screams along the way from people it has been somehow faster in recent years=2E unsure, whole world has seem= ingly broken in last 5 years and maybe it creeped into fbsd as well oh and also, do it yourself is also not very good suggestion=2E that's als= o what people like to eventually say if you question their work=2E some wil= l indeed do it=2E some would not have capability=2E but still hate the deci= sions eg if you used have guardrail somewhere and you used to able to lean on it= and now you can't and you often forget, fall and twist ankle sometimes=2E = you don't really want to adjust to, or look how to build it, or look for pe= rmissions to install=2E if you just want to not get hurt that's the main fight here isn't it? i don't think i care how base is managed=2E i find pkgbase better=2E the o= ldobsoletefiles is crazy, etc=2E i would like to have base under full contr= ol=2E what installed which file, etc=2E in ports i have that=2E in base i n= eed to pray=2E or just separate base totally=2E so you can delete it off=2E= that's weird too and only apply to certain systems=2E eg embedded where yo= u don't store local config in /etc=2E or thin jails, or so but, yeah, who knows note that pkgbase is not the only, first and last breaking change in fbsd the full feedback of pkgbase comes of course after it's in release also, like always, not all feedback comes directly too=2E there will be al= ways "dinner talk" type discussions after all, fbsd is still like good=2E secure, etc=2E altho it's weird to s= ee sa or eve en being issued that only affects newest release=2E eg, how ma= ny betas and rc's the 13 got? and it still came out and had to patched late= r=2E whose decision was to hurry it along and why? would have world collaps= ed otherwise? eg, in middle of release process of 13 or was it 14, a new driver was brou= ght in=2E i was like, new driver? in? last minute? why? sure, now hw is sup= ported but doesn't the new driver belong to like current? a "business" or b= usiness decision? need to "market" the os? sell or "sell" so to speak=2E th= at's also a fun thing how you need to "compete" that also reminds me all sorts of issues that came from "coc" thing=2E rid= icuous patches on wordings, etc=2E recently i saw change that changed bunch= of masters to mains and was taken back off=2E who needs that=2E someone al= ong those, not fbsd, asked if (s)he's still allowed to "master" a skill=2E = funnily main boot record is not only a ridiculous in computer industry=2E b= ut it doesn't fix anything=2E the mbr was called that because you need to s= tart from something=2E there's no "democracy" in booting up a single machin= e=2E i find view of anthropomorphic computers a weird thing=2E they aren't = even intelligent right now also whose decision it was to remove offensive fortune jokes from this "ad= ult" os did anybody complain? where does it stop? many manpages tell you to execut= e this=2E should it be changed to something like, if you want, you can do t= his, but we don't force you if you don't really want, we don't pressure you= =2E i mean seriously, someone might get offended=2E where to draw the line? maybe pkgbase will fix it too along with pkgbase come another new idea where there is no releases at all= ? and that becomes bit hellish=2E linux distros do it actually linux users have complained about fbsd ports always "rolling"=2E = some distros like to keep very old sw and patch it=2E i don't know which is= better=2E fixed old or "rolling"=2E now imagine if base starts "rolling" a= s well it would be whole different os i guess=2E of course it doesn't need to be= =2E but tools are there=2E you could keep same approach as before=2E releas= e and have just patches=2E and keep "rolling" to current btw, i never tried pkgbase, but pkg is smart enough to only update what's = needed, right? like if, like, right now, libarchive has sa=2E would only th= ose packages be updated? what if it's my own build? and i like rebuild all?= what would happen? so yeah, i don't know where we lead here=2E i will be 42 tomorrow=2E fbsd = 15 soon comes out=2E i was 18 when 4=2E6 came=2E tho i haven't been changed= much in how i like see the world=2E but people are different eh as people = say here earlier=2E hopefully fbsd lives long also, i never get the major version fast pace=2E it was once slower pace= =2E kind of perceived thing that it's latest? browsers lead this game here= =2E ff has v141=2E but they don't have added anything new over a hundred ti= mes what did fbsd add to justify it? of course, while versioning has told and = untold rules, it's just a number that everyone can just slap on their code = as they please so yeah, while like running os is a difficult thing=2E i don't think all o= f those things are needed but of course, everyone is pleased to do what they want=2E they could even= patch or alias the -af on their own if they feel so=2E just like i have rm= and others always aliased to -i=2E because it's super rare to delete stuff= , especially broadly much of observations here i have been like collecting for decades in my he= ad and never told anyone From nobody Fri Aug 8 14:59:54 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bz6dT0ZShz640nr; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 14:59:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from DutchDaemon@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS 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Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature To: "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org References: <79429D6B-7948-4D27-9F14-664CC075547A@FreeBSD.org> <7D0CD326-0CB0-41F0-99C2-BFEB9F4DC1EA@FreeBSD.org> From: DutchDaemon - FreeBSD Forums Administrator Content-Language: en-US Autocrypt: addr=DutchDaemon@FreeBSD.org; keydata= xjMEZa5xHxYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAfWZ69PhvjxSC5/RYQaU5TFyz+SENz3Oi0fkdJIISjGHN RER1dGNoRGFlbW9uIC0gRnJlZUJTRCBGb3J1bXMgQWRtaW5pc3RyYXRvciA8RHV0Y2hEYWVt b25ARnJlZUJTRC5vcmc+wokEExYIADEWIQSDIpfQllw48uFsWk/r4FMJZEPckQUCZa5xHwIb AwQLCQgHBRUICQoLBRYCAwEAAAoJEOvgUwlkQ9yRf7EBAMinyZF8zVzNuHpeKdGPHVZcNqBj 1H192nmduRSxejFnAP490W4kl7pwtdpMVrX7iJqkWanO2L0kWlig7csNIi5nAs44BGWucR8S CisGAQQBl1UBBQEBB0Ajr12wp47yOqDF5v8c+VC9pklim0qa1FrqxTMaA1kUJAMBCAfCeAQY FggAIBYhBIMil9CWXDjy4WxaT+vgUwlkQ9yRBQJlrnEfAhsMAAoJEOvgUwlkQ9yRsg0A/1UY CnRZEZOesZgnpCTuERpnJR5chIY9Y1bxUSxTerF7AP9x+CE28IZ7xFZfwHiss0VaDvQhNG08 NzNJHBSshFjtBQ== 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owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.700.81\)) Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature From: Dimitry Andric In-Reply-To: <0CC405ED-BCFC-41AD-A487-5261421BF8A6@FreeBSD.org> Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 17:00:58 +0200 Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= , Tomek CEDRO , Colin Percival , vermaden , Sulev-Madis Silber , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <864iui3si5.fsf@ltc.des.dev> <86pld62alk.fsf@ltc.des.dev> <0CC405ED-BCFC-41AD-A487-5261421BF8A6@FreeBSD.org> To: David Chisnall X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.700.81) On 8 Aug 2025, at 15:56, David Chisnall wrote: >=20 > On 8 Aug 2025, at 14:42, Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav = wrote: >>=20 >> Tomek CEDRO writes: >>> [...] from user perspective these changes were easy to adapt to :-) >>=20 >> So will this one. >=20 > Let=E2=80=99s remember the thing that started this entire thread: `pkg = delete -af` >=20 > This is an *incredibly* stupid thing to do. Long before pkg came = along, I did the equivalent of this and managed to lock myself out of a = headless box by doing this because I forgot that I was using the ports = version of openssh instead of the base one. I'm one of the people that regularly runs `pkg delete -af`, even with = `-y` added. :) That said, I only use this when I have completely = rebuilt a ports collection with poudriere against a newer base jail, and = then I'd like to start completely from scratch with freshly installed = packages. This also clears out any unnecessary non-leaf packages there = were pulled in by a previous package build. Obviously that is an outlier scenario! But does pkg have a way to = express "show me packages only from this particular repo", or "delete = only packages from this particular repo"? That would make it easy to do = "delete only the packages from ports, not from base". -Dimitry From nobody Fri Aug 8 15:03:41 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bz6k25Rvmz641cW; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 15:03:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Received: from smtpo73.interia.pl (smtpo73.interia.pl [217.74.67.73]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bz6k229lwz3KPr; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 15:03:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2025 17:03:41 +0200 From: vermaden Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature To: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?= , "sthaug@nethelp.no" Cc: "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" , freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: interia.pl/pf09 In-Reply-To: <86h5yi43kp.fsf@ltc.des.dev> References: <20250808.091053.1322595805169591390.sthaug@nethelp.no> <86h5yi43kp.fsf@ltc.des.dev> X-Originating-IP: 45.148.42.1 Message-Id: List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=interia.pl; s=biztos; t=1754665425; bh=7IwM1nAjTL+19LbCl7Bmk+Q8sRz+scmgUr14snucekg=; h=Date:From:Subject:To:Message-Id:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=vEj0cuMUfMnE79J5QBevhmUggjM1M8GBghwFEd9Rqntr3VXTfPIyevJZb3W9YRoz1 3tZcOKqEBM6rGdzS7KPbBpleqifyfVmrYwMCcu3CepVepRyZXcEfPi8cwYYdAPziA9 T41Sj/i0SQTA1AHQ2/qIWMqh9oswgjn0Fcpong7U= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bz6k229lwz3KPr X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16138, ipnet:217.74.64.0/22, country:PL] Current 'vital' thing does NOTHING to protect FreeBSD Base System. I literally just wiped one of my Jails because of this 'vital' protection. That 'vital' thing is useless in current state after issuing this command: # pkg delete -af Log below. Unbootable and unusable FreeBSD left after the command that only removed pa= ckages without PKGBASE and with PKGBASE you are left with dust. Even /rescue is gone. root@bsdinstalljail:/ # pkg info FreeBSD-acct-14.1p1 System Accounting Utilities FreeBSD-acct-man-14.1 System Accounting Utilities (Manual Pages) FreeBSD-acpi-14.1 ACPI Utilities (...) FreeBSD-zfs-dev-14.1p1 ZFS Libraries and Utilities (Development Fil= es) FreeBSD-zfs-man-14.1 ZFS Libraries and Utilities (Manual Pages) FreeBSD-zoneinfo-14.1p7 zoneinfo package beadm-1.3.5_1 Solaris-like utility to manage Boot Environm= ents on ZFS pkg-2.2.1 Package manager root@bsdinstalljail:/ # pkg delete -af Checking integrity... done (0 conflicting) Deinstallation has been requested for the following 271 packages (of 0 pack= ages in the universe): Installed packages to be REMOVED: FreeBSD-acct: 14.1p1 FreeBSD-acct-man: 14.1 FreeBSD-acpi: 14.1 (...) [bsdinstalljail.lab.org] [268/271] Deleting files for FreeBSD-zfs-man-14.1:= 100% [bsdinstalljail.lab.org] [269/271] Deinstalling FreeBSD-zoneinfo-14.1p7... [bsdinstalljail.lab.org] [269/271] Deleting files for FreeBSD-zoneinfo-14.1= p7: 100% [bsdinstalljail.lab.org] [270/271] Deinstalling beadm-1.3.5_1... [bsdinstalljail.lab.org] [270/271] Deleting files for beadm-1.3.5_1: 100% [bsdinstalljail.lab.org] [271/271] Deinstalling pkg-2.2.1... [bsdinstalljail.lab.org] [271/271] Deleting files for pkg-2.2.1: 100% pkg: Cannot runscript POST-DEINSTALL:No such file or directory You may need to manually remove /usr/local/etc/pkg.conf if it is no longer = needed. root@bsdinstalljail:/ # ls /bin/sh: ls: not found root@bsdinstalljail:/ # vi /bin/sh: vi: not found root@bsdinstalljail:/ # pkg /bin/sh: pkg: not found root@bsdinstalljail:/ # pkg-static /bin/sh: pkg-static: not found root@bsdinstalljail:/ # reboot /bin/sh: reboot: not found root@bsdinstalljail:/ # goodbye /bin/sh: goodbye: not found root@bsdinstalljail:/ # /rescue/ls /rescue /bin/sh: /rescue/ls: not found root@bsdinstalljail:/ # /rescue/ls.pkgsave /rescue rescue: ls.pkgsave not compiled in usage: rescue ..., where is one of: cat chflags chio chmod cp date dd df echo ed red expr getfacl hostname ken= v kill ln link ls mkdir mv pkill pgrep ps pwd realpath rm unlink rmdir setfa= cl sh -sh sleep stty sync test [ csh -csh tcsh -tcsh camcontrol clri devfs dm= esg dump rdump dumpfs dumpon fsck fsck_ffs fsck_4.2bsd fsck_ufs fsck_msdosfs f= sdb fsirand gbde geom glabel gpart ifconfig init kldconfig kldload kldstat kldunload ldconfig md5 mdconfig mdmfs mknod mount mount_cd9660 mount_msdos= fs mount_nfs mount_nullfs mount_udf mount_unionfs newfs newfs_msdos nos-tun reboot fastboot halt fasthalt restore rrestore rcorder route savecore shut= down poweroff swapon sysctl tunefs umount ccdconfig ping ping6 rtsol ipf routed rtquery bectl zfs zpool bsdlabel disklabel fdisk dhclient head mt sed tail= tee gzip gunzip gzcat zcat bzip2 bunzip2 bzcat less more xz unxz lzma unlzma x= zcat lzcat zstd unzstd zstdcat zstdmt fetch tar nc vi ex id groups whoami iscsi= ctl zdb chroot chown chgrp iscsid rescue Temat: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Data: 2025-08-08 10:31 Nadawca: "Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav" <des@FreeBSD.org> Adresat: sthaug@nethelp.no;=20 DW: freebsd-current@freebsd.org; freebsd-stable@freebsd.org;=20 >=20 >> sthaug@nethelp.no writes: >> - It's important to have a clean separation between the base system >> (whether that is installed using the package system or not) and the >> rest. An easy way to list "these are the base system packages" is >> absolutely needed. >=20 > You can easily create an alias for this: >=20 > pkg query -e '%o =3D base' %n >=20 > If you want something closer to `pkg info`, try: >=20 > pkg query -e '%o =3D base' '%n-%v %c' | column -tl 2 >=20 >> - Maybe there should be an extra step if you try to delete packages >> from the base system? >=20 > There already is: >=20 > % sudo pkg delete FreeBSD-clibs > Checking integrity... done (0 conflicting) > The following package(s) are locked or vital and may not be removed: > =20 > FreeBSD-clibs > =20 > 1 packages requested for removal: 1 locked, 0 missing >=20 > The only matter that remains to be settled is which packages should be > marked vital: >=20 > % pkg query -e '%V =3D 1' %n > FreeBSD-clibs > FreeBSD-runtime >=20 > DES > --=20 > Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@FreeBSD.org >=20 >=20 >=20 From nobody Fri Aug 8 15:06:56 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bz6nZ0DF8z641XG; 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Fri, 08 Aug 2025 15:06:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from DutchDaemon@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 17:06:56 +0200 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature To: "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" Cc: "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org References: <864iui3si5.fsf@ltc.des.dev> <86pld62alk.fsf@ltc.des.dev> <0CC405ED-BCFC-41AD-A487-5261421BF8A6@FreeBSD.org> From: DutchDaemon - FreeBSD Forums Administrator Content-Language: en-US Autocrypt: addr=DutchDaemon@FreeBSD.org; keydata= xjMEZa5xHxYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAfWZ69PhvjxSC5/RYQaU5TFyz+SENz3Oi0fkdJIISjGHN RER1dGNoRGFlbW9uIC0gRnJlZUJTRCBGb3J1bXMgQWRtaW5pc3RyYXRvciA8RHV0Y2hEYWVt b25ARnJlZUJTRC5vcmc+wokEExYIADEWIQSDIpfQllw48uFsWk/r4FMJZEPckQUCZa5xHwIb AwQLCQgHBRUICQoLBRYCAwEAAAoJEOvgUwlkQ9yRf7EBAMinyZF8zVzNuHpeKdGPHVZcNqBj 1H192nmduRSxejFnAP490W4kl7pwtdpMVrX7iJqkWanO2L0kWlig7csNIi5nAs44BGWucR8S CisGAQQBl1UBBQEBB0Ajr12wp47yOqDF5v8c+VC9pklim0qa1FrqxTMaA1kUJAMBCAfCeAQY FggAIBYhBIMil9CWXDjy4WxaT+vgUwlkQ9yRBQJlrnEfAhsMAAoJEOvgUwlkQ9yRsg0A/1UY CnRZEZOesZgnpCTuERpnJR5chIY9Y1bxUSxTerF7AP9x+CE28IZ7xFZfwHiss0VaDvQhNG08 NzNJHBSshFjtBQ== Organization: The FreeBSD Forums In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------NP0wy94pfYQk2Oi1l0xreIpl" This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------NP0wy94pfYQk2Oi1l0xreIpl Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------kYp9CgOLynOW3TfT2hDV033u"; protected-headers="v1" From: DutchDaemon - FreeBSD Forums Administrator To: "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" Cc: "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature References: <864iui3si5.fsf@ltc.des.dev> <86pld62alk.fsf@ltc.des.dev> <0CC405ED-BCFC-41AD-A487-5261421BF8A6@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: --------------kYp9CgOLynOW3TfT2hDV033u Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------X0LBS8W6e7tF2Wqc5if5U79S" --------------X0LBS8W6e7tF2Wqc5if5U79S Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 T24gOC84LzIwMjUgNTowMCBQTSwgRGltaXRyeSBBbmRyaWMgd3JvdGU6DQo+IEknbSBvbmUg b2YgdGhlIHBlb3BsZSB0aGF0IHJlZ3VsYXJseSBydW5zIGBwa2cgZGVsZXRlIC1hZmAsIGV2 ZW4gd2l0aCBgLXlgIGFkZGVkLiA6KSAgVGhhdCBzYWlkLCBJIG9ubHkgdXNlIHRoaXMgd2hl biBJIGhhdmUgY29tcGxldGVseSByZWJ1aWx0IGEgcG9ydHMgY29sbGVjdGlvbiB3aXRoIHBv dWRyaWVyZSBhZ2FpbnN0IGEgbmV3ZXIgYmFzZSBqYWlsLCBhbmQgdGhlbiBJJ2QgbGlrZSB0 byBzdGFydCBjb21wbGV0ZWx5IGZyb20gc2NyYXRjaCB3aXRoIGZyZXNobHkgaW5zdGFsbGVk IHBhY2thZ2VzLiBUaGlzIGFsc28gY2xlYXJzIG91dCBhbnkgdW5uZWNlc3Nhcnkgbm9uLWxl YWYgcGFja2FnZXMgdGhlcmUgd2VyZSBwdWxsZWQgaW4gYnkgYSBwcmV2aW91cyBwYWNrYWdl IGJ1aWxkLg0KPg0KPiBPYnZpb3VzbHkgdGhhdCBpcyBhbiBvdXRsaWVyIHNjZW5hcmlvIQ0K DQoNCk5vLCBpdCBpc24ndCwgSSBkbyB0aGUgc2FtZSB0aGluZ3Mgd2l0aCBQb3VkcmllcmUu DQoNCkFuZCBldmVyeSBzbyBvZnRlbiwgd2hlbiB0aGVyZSBoYXZlIGJlZW4gYSBsb3Qgb2Yg ZGV2ZWxvcG1lbnRzIA0KKGFkZGl0aW9ucy9kZWxldGlvbnMgb2YgcGFja2FnZXMsIHRyeS1v dXRzLCBldGMuKSBvbiBhIHNlcnZlciwgdGhpbmdzIA0KY2FuIGdldCBhIGJpdCBtdWRkeS4N Cg0KRGVpbnN0YWxsaW5nIGFsbCBwb3J0cyBhbmQgaW5zdGFsbGluZyBvbmx5IHRoZSBvbmVz IHlvdSBhY3R1YWxseSBuZWVkIA0KZnJvbSB0aGVuIG9uIGlzIGEgKC9zbyBmYXIvKSB0cnVz dGVkIHNvbHV0aW9uIGZvciBob3VzZWtlZXBpbmcuDQoNCg== --------------X0LBS8W6e7tF2Wqc5if5U79S Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 8/8/2025 5:00 PM, Dimitry Andric wrote: 
I'm one of the people that regularly runs `pkg delete -af`, even with `-y=
` added. :)  That said, I only use this when I have completely rebuilt a =
ports collection with poudriere against a newer base jail, and then I'd l=
ike to start completely from scratch with freshly installed packages. Thi=
s also clears out any unnecessary non-leaf packages there were pulled in =
by a previous package build.

Obviously that is an outlier scenario!


No, it isn't, I do the same things with Poudriere.=C2=A0

And every so often, when there have been a lot of developments (additions/deletions of packages, try-outs, etc.) on a server, things can get a bit muddy.=C2=A0

Deinstalling all ports and installing only the ones you actually need from then on is a (so far) trusted solution for housekeeping.

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Fri, 08 Aug 2025 15:15:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtpclient.apple (host86-143-41-189.range86-143.btcentralplus.com [86.143.41.189]) by smtp.theravensnest.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3F0E5BD5; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 16:15:40 +0100 (BST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3776.700.51.11.1\)) Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature From: David Chisnall In-Reply-To: <81470e1f-5a91-453b-a1aa-20a7e9fb8855@FreeBSD.org> Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 16:15:29 +0100 Cc: "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" , FreeBSD CURRENT , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <33CC4995-5B1D-4640-A5B0-2E7AD599D5BA@FreeBSD.org> References: <79429D6B-7948-4D27-9F14-664CC075547A@FreeBSD.org> <7D0CD326-0CB0-41F0-99C2-BFEB9F4DC1EA@FreeBSD.org> <81470e1f-5a91-453b-a1aa-20a7e9fb8855@FreeBSD.org> To: DutchDaemon - FreeBSD Forums Administrator X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3776.700.51.11.1) On 8 Aug 2025, at 15:59, DutchDaemon - FreeBSD Forums Administrator = wrote: >=20 > On 8/8/2025 4:20 PM, David Chisnall wrote: >> Every upgrade flow I have on every FreeBSD machine I use is = simplified by pkgbase. Having fewer tools is a usability win. Having a = single command upgrade everything is a usability win. If you*want to* = upgrade only some things, that=E2=80=99s one extra command-line flag. > Just to clarify things from an inverse perspective: in a pkgbase = scenario, how would one go about deleting all ports, and only ports? = What would the new pkg command be? It should be `pkg del -r {repo name}`. It is not, currently, because (unlike the install commands), `pkg = delete` does not accept the `-r` flag (presumably because the only place = where it makes sense is in concert with the `-a` flag and no one thought = of that use case). I think that=E2=80=99s a bug, it should probably be fixed. And now we = have a meaningful and actionable requirement. I have filed this issue: https://github.com/freebsd/pkg/issues/2494 David= From nobody Fri Aug 8 15:21:08 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bz7610CzFz64308 for ; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 15:21:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Received: from smtpo69.interia.pl (smtpo69.interia.pl [217.74.67.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bz75z6L0Kz3Sw5 for ; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 15:21:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2025 17:21:08 +0200 From: vermaden Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature To: Sulev-Madis Silber , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" X-Mailer: interia.pl/pf09 In-Reply-To: References: <20250808.091053.1322595805169591390.sthaug@nethelp.no> X-Originating-IP: 45.148.42.1 Message-Id: List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=interia.pl; s=biztos; t=1754666469; bh=orgvdRSwN+wb8Gyy4auCpKJnoKF1oV7qZKsRqeCjLpg=; h=Date:From:Subject:To:Message-Id:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=DrR6S11di546hBMLxkeBXOJB4SuOQU0Rhbk2XqyoaIlU0S6C5mh+KeK8QL/xg8ZSz 9TE6OhS6AOAmuejZgvnJJktofo5x79Tk2uNcvqG9zjhOFa5XhsvOwzQfaUbZeoYH16 ErDWuJUpKgLVH8UEMVAFtfoWqVCTHYLmJlXqY6oY= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bz75z6L0Kz3Sw5 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16138, ipnet:217.74.64.0/22, country:PL] I could not agree more with You on every aspect you just wrote. I started with FreeBSD little later then You - with 5.3 or 5.4 - and I also spent about two decades of my life with FreeBSD as I am 41 now. ... and changing all these 'master' to 'main' is/was such a bullshit. I can only hope that these pointless and harmful changes did not bring any new bugs. Temat: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Data: 2025-08-08 16:44 Nadawca: "Sulev-Madis Silber" <freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.pri.ee> Adresat: freebsd-current@freebsd.org; > > > oh people can get a lot worse than this > > people can get "stupid" users to execute data destructive commands and watch in group as it's deleting right now and later laugh and say why didn't you check. as if they won some kind of battle > > people can say multiple times how others waste their time and they should pay them or look things up on their own because they don't simply tell them what they know. again, looks like battle for nothing > > i don't usually need people in my life. i don't also feel need to "live their lives" for them without them wanting it by suggesting that their way is "wrong" > > if i make a program with grey background and i later change it to yellow, perhaps without option to change it, i've made a bad decision for someone else who i don't even care what bg color (s)he likes. btw, i hate english for not allowing me to use genderless words here > > actually what's good is that every part of fbsd is open. you can go and undo the "kings" decision. if you have enough changes locally, and it's past simple configuration, and involves a code too, and others like it too, now you have created a fork > > so what's this war about? > > how many times have you been pissed that data is getting deleted too easily? i recall many times. while i don't recall times where i need to pass yet another option to finally get rid of data > > have you done any woodwork? piece is bit too long and you need to cut it again? vs. piece is too short > > similarly, mains sockets have covers because vfib is bad. imagine you tell electrician why did you poke finger into contacts, didn't you know it's dangerous > > unsure what will happen to fbsd. there have been number of changes since 4.6. some are good. some are bad. pkgbase would eliminate need for a 202 line long src.conf with all those without_*'s. but then come all that -af. who would be pissed if their system doesn't delete stuff easily? > > i recall linux userland rm having extra length long option for deleting /. our rm iirc was just updated to not ever do this. i wonder where's war for both. you don't usually do it > > same here. unsure where to draw the line but why not having extra check if you indeed remove all. unsure how many people -af regularly but > > and indeed, question is about safety. i don't like the unnecessary handholding type but here it might be good > > i mean there have been number of things in fbsd what i've been observing quietly over years. i mean who questions the authority, right, eh...? all the different things. like i told you it's bad, why didn't you listen. or this is good. or who made this decision behind my back? > > at this point, i could maybe change topic to freebsd design decisions and / or write to different list > > because i sometimes don't get anymore who needs this os? who uses it? what features does it need? how many platforms? how long support cycles? embedded or not? > > oh it's still heading to general good direction i think. that's why i'm here. just with ouch this hurts pain screams along the way from people > > it has been somehow faster in recent years. unsure, whole world has seemingly broken in last 5 years and maybe it creeped into fbsd as well > > oh and also, do it yourself is also not very good suggestion. that's also what people like to eventually say if you question their work. some will indeed do it. some would not have capability. but still hate the decisions > > eg if you used have guardrail somewhere and you used to able to lean on it and now you can't and you often forget, fall and twist ankle sometimes. you don't really want to adjust to, or look how to build it, or look for permissions to install. if you just want to not get hurt > > that's the main fight here isn't it? > > i don't think i care how base is managed. i find pkgbase better. the oldobsoletefiles is crazy, etc. i would like to have base under full control. what installed which file, etc. in ports i have that. in base i need to pray. or just separate base totally. so you can delete it off. that's weird too and only apply to certain systems. eg embedded where you don't store local config in /etc. or thin jails, or so > > but, yeah, who knows > > note that pkgbase is not the only, first and last breaking change in fbsd > > the full feedback of pkgbase comes of course after it's in release > > also, like always, not all feedback comes directly too. there will be always "dinner talk" type discussions > > after all, fbsd is still like good. secure, etc. altho it's weird to see sa or eve en being issued that only affects newest release. eg, how many betas and rc's the 13 got? and it still came out and had to patched later. whose decision was to hurry it along and why? would have world collapsed otherwise? > > eg, in middle of release process of 13 or was it 14, a new driver was brought in. i was like, new driver? in? last minute? why? sure, now hw is supported but doesn't the new driver belong to like current? a "business" or business decision? need to "market" the os? sell or "sell" so to speak. that's also a fun thing how you need to "compete" > > that also reminds me all sorts of issues that came from "coc" thing. ridicuous patches on wordings, etc. recently i saw change that changed bunch of masters to mains and was taken back off. who needs that. someone along those, not fbsd, asked if (s)he's still allowed to "master" a skill. funnily main boot record is not only a ridiculous in computer industry. but it doesn't fix anything. the mbr was called that because you need to start from something. there's no "democracy" in booting up a single machine. i find view of anthropomorphic computers a weird thing. they aren't even intelligent right now > > also whose decision it was to remove offensive fortune jokes from this "adult" os > > did anybody complain? where does it stop? many manpages tell you to execute this. should it be changed to something like, if you want, you can do this, but we don't force you if you don't really want, we don't pressure you. i mean seriously, someone might get offended. where to draw the line? > > maybe pkgbase will fix it too > > along with pkgbase come another new idea where there is no releases at all? and that becomes bit hellish. linux distros do it > > actually linux users have complained about fbsd ports always "rolling". some distros like to keep very old sw and patch it. i don't know which is better. fixed old or "rolling". now imagine if base starts "rolling" as well > > it would be whole different os i guess. of course it doesn't need to be. but tools are there. you could keep same approach as before. release and have just patches. and keep "rolling" to current > > btw, i never tried pkgbase, but pkg is smart enough to only update what's needed, right? like if, like, right now, libarchive has sa. would only those packages be updated? what if it's my own build? and i like rebuild all? what would happen? > > so yeah, i don't know where we lead here. i will be 42 tomorrow. fbsd 15 soon comes out. i was 18 when 4.6 came. tho i haven't been changed much in how i like see the world. but people are different eh as people say here earlier. hopefully fbsd lives long > > also, i never get the major version fast pace. it was once slower pace. kind of perceived thing that it's latest? browsers lead this game here. ff has v141. but they don't have added anything new over a hundred times > > what did fbsd add to justify it? of course, while versioning has told and untold rules, it's just a number that everyone can just slap on their code as they please > > so yeah, while like running os is a difficult thing. i don't think all of those things are needed > > but of course, everyone is pleased to do what they want. they could even patch or alias the -af on their own if they feel so. just like i have rm and others always aliased to -i. because it's super rare to delete stuff, especially broadly > > much of observations here i have been like collecting for decades in my head and never told anyone > > > From nobody Fri Aug 8 15:23:41 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bz78v3687z643K6; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 15:23:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from DutchDaemon@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bz78v07Xwz3VVm; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 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[85.148.89.7]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: dutchdaemon/mail) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4bz78t2rZxzL7D; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 15:23:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from DutchDaemon@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 17:23:41 +0200 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature To: "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" Cc: FreeBSD CURRENT , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org References: <79429D6B-7948-4D27-9F14-664CC075547A@FreeBSD.org> <7D0CD326-0CB0-41F0-99C2-BFEB9F4DC1EA@FreeBSD.org> <81470e1f-5a91-453b-a1aa-20a7e9fb8855@FreeBSD.org> 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current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bz9m26ynTz64DcS for ; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 17:20:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bz9m26Nycz45sn; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 17:20:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754673650; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: 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present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: des) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4bz9m250lxzNBN; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 17:20:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) Received: by ltc.des.dev (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 7742C125F4; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 19:20:49 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: David Wolfskill Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unexpected result from "geli attach" attempt In-Reply-To: (David Wolfskill's message of "Fri, 8 Aug 2025 07:17:43 -0700") References: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2025 19:20:49 +0200 Message-ID: <868qjt3f2m.fsf@ltc.des.dev> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David Wolfskill writes: > TL;DR: I attempted "/sbin/geli attach -k - /dev/ada0s4j"; result was: > geli: Invalid value for 'n' argument: Result too large This is a long-standing bug in sbin/geom/core/geom.c which was recently made worse by my changes to expand_number(3). It will get fixed within a couple of days, please be patient. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@FreeBSD.org From nobody Fri Aug 8 17:24:26 2025 X-Original-To: current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bz9rL4pxDz64FFb for ; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 17:24:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from david@catwhisker.org) Received: from mx.catwhisker.org (mx.catwhisker.org [107.204.234.170]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bz9rK291Gz47ns; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 17:24:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from david@catwhisker.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from albert.catwhisker.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by albert.catwhisker.org (8.18.1/8.18.1) with ESMTP id 578HOQdN012528; Fri, 8 Aug 2025 17:24:26 GMT (envelope-from david@albert.catwhisker.org) Received: (from david@localhost) by albert.catwhisker.org (8.18.1/8.18.1/Submit) id 578HOQE9012527; Fri, 8 Aug 2025 10:24:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from david) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 10:24:26 -0700 From: David Wolfskill To: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unexpected result from "geli attach" attempt Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: David Wolfskill , Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= , current@freebsd.org References: <868qjt3f2m.fsf@ltc.des.dev> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="tlv9RNEkJuF33LfH" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <868qjt3f2m.fsf@ltc.des.dev> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bz9rK291Gz47ns X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7018, ipnet:107.192.0.0/12, country:US] --tlv9RNEkJuF33LfH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Aug 08, 2025 at 07:20:49PM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > David Wolfskill writes: > > TL;DR: I attempted "/sbin/geli attach -k - /dev/ada0s4j"; result was: > > geli: Invalid value for 'n' argument: Result too large >=20 > This is a long-standing bug in sbin/geom/core/geom.c which was recently > made worse by my changes to expand_number(3). It will get fixed within > a couple of days, please be patient. > .... OK; cool -- that's fine. It's just reassuring to note that it wasn't "just me" -- or that I was hallucinating. :-} Thanks! Peace, david --=20 David H. Wolfskill david@catwhisker.org Of course firing the statistician will force the statistics to conform! See https://www.catwhisker.org/~david/publickey.gpg for my public key. --tlv9RNEkJuF33LfH Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iNUEARYKAH0WIQSTLzOSbomIK53fjFliipiWhXYx5QUCaJYyyl8UgAAAAAAuAChp c3N1ZXItZnByQG5vdGF0aW9ucy5vcGVucGdwLmZpZnRoaG9yc2VtYW4ubmV0OTMy RjMzOTI2RTg5ODgyQjlEREY4QzU5NjI4QTk4OTY4NTc2MzFFNQAKCRBiipiWhXYx 5XoBAP4nLV5zBOjus5v5z+AagUOBfs388RrHJ3GGgLOiXmUGBgD7BTv1hU+QGabB obu3Wzv/EmbnT7kxIcozOLFRjIH9kwY= =aaD3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --tlv9RNEkJuF33LfH-- From nobody Fri Aug 8 17:44:53 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzBHq3Hxkz64H8X; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 17:44:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzBHq2dwvz4FRk; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 17:44:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754675095; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=DWAMKN0yZ8q/Lx/agmbhuEy71TCf5xFD3hau18/E2mU=; b=oTS794uIGNAkk0cdkVfG3XkGhdFlXbHC+Iteyr7KhrAKqHaU2tKE6WHO86jAbuzqdJWecn uEGvCcYmJBpK/WLI4yvWedizHjKWooyFO3x9bmQbYKfZUkJFze1CQ2AwAiYoVWDppeqbYT HseKuPa/coMMBdJIcVxExMzGQ9e1vADXClTEiUiwbW9ZG/ip+0rSYluI9Rmdq/HW2bLV33 9bolsJOcbHH6uaoEakIngPoT0g0A5h1niSXQ8PEp8ocygnYpdv580Q63Hpm+VVzwxzM2JV NuMyj2uLbIYdQ30Ps8F/JAaOHn5nwbNjoUWgIIGomXyqKQVHOW1Q71FU0ow1RA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754675095; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=DWAMKN0yZ8q/Lx/agmbhuEy71TCf5xFD3hau18/E2mU=; b=F6KqQv5gQGc9yb2ouABmMpqi9wp4aHvmxc6VWMiEiFJTQlF+adY4kvEDI37oxVxEQbj+rT SjXm+KNVZbM3ANoS0Q2kI2oQRokM+0UTvO0rcDP0Xa4BrkO+Q56n+/WEID+67YlEgVeE4I JYLSzSBe8sL9wYiZayFFfRxvgstzRsIDOyzwMnoAYCC5d+ZR/bsy36kHENHMyCbjQ4nG6M 8a+1kZEVU8SYTpt6E7bhziv5e5Nv1RppO+34ILSEN91ll8gJoy7+LZ6XL547mKkRZI0wpx qdU2zDUYnOUeMNjluNqqQ759YxJTZB7v9zq40EcV2gVcitkJUVaMg6KHTKVtZA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1754675095; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=gOJ3g0rtoHgtaUnhgWCg5jNZTVoGOMlTyvXyeJJe4Pb8xZcrj5epmdRGqkStUq32mGWvuW bzeWmNgXyrGr2LEp0rBZ+r8lvq0+b/ZPlM2oF9s17TXMNINP9C7tUTskXd2uNDY2elEYbV YmTv6+dmzDAIKN021KKqNrxWKqGEl6CVOwh6VgY29m2ckgdGPtKaxPdWZnjZeW7GZkPzY6 eUioRK12SRk9kmNf7l1dFJjK3ijPrik7zqczGCuxq6m2T0wRG2GrIA9vLg83QncWchiF8b CPm6Tqa4Z+zYFwyd/P/io3rIYyJzyLQMLfJpxEEeOdm4GObZDRraQ8+YHXqjEA== Received: from ltc.des.dev (unknown [IPv6:2a01:e0a:c54:bed0:922e:16ff:fef1:acef]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: des) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4bzBHq1BfMzNqg; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 17:44:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) Received: by ltc.des.dev (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 4731C12DAB; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 19:44:53 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: vermaden Cc: "sthaug@nethelp.no" , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" , freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature In-Reply-To: (vermaden@interia.pl's message of "Fri, 08 Aug 2025 17:03:41 +0200") References: <20250808.091053.1322595805169591390.sthaug@nethelp.no> <86h5yi43kp.fsf@ltc.des.dev> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2025 19:44:53 +0200 Message-ID: <86wm7d1ze2.fsf@ltc.des.dev> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable vermaden writes: > Current 'vital' thing does NOTHING to protect FreeBSD Base System. How much longer will it take you to learn that people stop taking you seriously when you scream at them? DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@FreeBSD.org From nobody Fri Aug 8 17:57:43 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzBZk2qsrz64Hvn; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 17:57:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Received: from smtpo49.interia.pl (smtpo49.interia.pl [217.74.67.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzBZk0HgKz4KmM; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 17:57:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2025 19:57:43 +0200 From: vermaden Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature To: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?= Cc: "sthaug@nethelp.no" , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org" X-Mailer: interia.pl/pf09 In-Reply-To: <86wm7d1ze2.fsf@ltc.des.dev> References: <20250808.091053.1322595805169591390.sthaug@nethelp.no> <86h5yi43kp.fsf@ltc.des.dev> <86wm7d1ze2.fsf@ltc.des.dev> X-Originating-IP: 45.148.42.1 Message-Id: List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=interia.pl; s=biztos; t=1754675867; bh=OzSXvOvQBpW78jWAbLIHcPgJGdmWh1uABnpyVh9lfZI=; h=Date:From:Subject:To:Message-Id:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=AfBihw/Af3ZCOc9uqpnF01+FiEcVKdfjMx6qmbR+Az10Z0fdDd0jfTgPjA7Lkd3U2 DCQsCw3FZKGV5wEQBwDbc6d8Sq1hDfQTUWcZwzBqU0O3ZaLKugaimn30Fx4yrqY/9Q /wej5sUhFPMegTYTv9aQSLHh/9lQX4yjWWh4/3ow= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzBZk0HgKz4KmM X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16138, ipnet:217.74.64.0/22, country:PL] Its not screaming its underlining important problem ... Temat: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Data: 2025-08-08 19:48 Nadawca: "Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav" <des@FreeBSD.org> Adresat: "vermaden" <vermaden@interia.pl>;=20 DW: "sthaug@nethelp.no" <sthaug@nethelp.no>; "freebsd-current@freebsd.or= g" <freebsd-current@freebsd.org>; "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" <freeb= sd-stable@freebsd.org>; freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org;=20 >=20 > > vermaden writes: >> Current 'vital' thing does NOTHING to protect FreeBSD Base System. >=20 > How much longer will it take you to learn that people stop taking you > seriously when you scream at them? >=20 > DES > --=20 > Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@FreeBSD.org From nobody Fri Aug 8 20:37:20 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzG6w5MmMz643fn; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 20:37:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rob.fx907@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ed1-x52a.google.com (mail-ed1-x52a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzG6w3DfZz3SXR; 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Fri, 08 Aug 2025 13:37:21 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a17:906:1359:b0:af9:1d40:9170 with HTTP; Fri, 8 Aug 2025 13:37:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <86wm7d1ze2.fsf@ltc.des.dev> References: <20250808.091053.1322595805169591390.sthaug@nethelp.no> <86h5yi43kp.fsf@ltc.des.dev> <86wm7d1ze2.fsf@ltc.des.dev> From: Rob Wing Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 12:37:20 -0800 X-Gm-Features: Ac12FXwAA7nHVn1mf-WKmsDyVeT-K7Epj3QHG_hZuthzX621I4zcGqzf7g9rhoE Message-ID: Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature To: =?UTF-8?Q?Dag=2DErling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= Cc: vermaden , "sthaug@nethelp.no" , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006c7ef2063be08a01" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzG6w3DfZz3SXR X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[] --0000000000006c7ef2063be08a01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dag, mind your attitude towards our users/contributors vermaden was clearly not yelling so stop trying to discredit them with such accusations. On Friday, August 8, 2025, Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav wrote= : > vermaden writes: > > Current 'vital' thing does NOTHING to protect FreeBSD Base System. > > How much longer will it take you to learn that people stop taking you > seriously when you scream at them? > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@FreeBSD.org > > --0000000000006c7ef2063be08a01 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dag,<= /span>

mind your attitude towards our users/contributors<= br>


vermaden was clearly not yelling so stop trying to discredit them with = such accusations.


On Friday, August 8, 2025, Dag-Erling Sm=C3= =B8rgrav <des@freebsd.org> wro= te:
vermaden <vermaden@interia.pl> writes:
> Current 'vital' thing does NOTHING to protect FreeBSD Base Sys= tem.

How much longer will it take you to learn that people stop taking you
seriously when you scream at them?

DES
--
Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@FreeBSD.org

--0000000000006c7ef2063be08a01-- From nobody Fri Aug 8 20:54:58 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzGWH68cwz645qw; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 20:55:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Received: from smtpo69.interia.pl (smtpo69.interia.pl [217.74.67.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzGWG58Fyz3WwF; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 20:55:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=interia.pl header.s=biztos header.b=Z6rELHuP; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of vermaden@interia.pl designates 217.74.67.69 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=vermaden@interia.pl; dmarc=pass (policy=quarantine) header.from=interia.pl Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2025 22:54:58 +0200 From: vermaden Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature To: Rob Wing , Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?= Cc: "sthaug@nethelp.no" , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org" X-Mailer: interia.pl/pf09 In-Reply-To: References: <20250808.091053.1322595805169591390.sthaug@nethelp.no> <86h5yi43kp.fsf@ltc.des.dev> <86wm7d1ze2.fsf@ltc.des.dev> X-Originating-IP: 45.148.42.1 Message-Id: List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=interia.pl; s=biztos; t=1754686504; bh=Bl8StcwMhBphcQf/GfB5PqqruwF6RsfuEjup3cxNuFA=; h=Date:From:Subject:To:Message-Id:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Z6rELHuPf6mDFckbOVi0LWxIDW5AnTwd29kz2pYp7Q5UbWJJlAG8dOc74tM5OBR0j httW4TkCQQTbdqcP1MirTlNlVE1T266s2VvG2wq9tNS3i3cgM12djJMLXhTtYloy9k nJ6NcTHcamcfVr8htqdi8WA/zf7UMD6L9hcLhJZ0= X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.10 / 15.00]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[interia.pl:dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[interia.pl,quarantine]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_VERYGOOD(-0.20)[217.74.67.69:from]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[interia.pl:s=biztos]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:217.74.64.0/22]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.10)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com,freebsd.org]; SUSPICIOUS_AUTH_ORIGIN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[interia.pl]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16138, ipnet:217.74.64.0/22, country:PL]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[interia.pl]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[interia.pl:+]; HAS_XOIP(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org,freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org,freebsd-stable@freebsd.org]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzGWG58Fyz3WwF X-Spamd-Bar: --- Thank You for support Rob. It was definitely not my intention to scream/yell at anyone. I am just sharing my concerns here. I am just a sysadmin - I do not have a commit bit - I am not a FreeBSD deve= loper - I just share what I believe may push FreeBSD into direction to make= it better - because after all these years with various UNIX (AIX/Solaris/H= P-UX) and Linux systems FreeBSD seems to be the best and most sensible over= all option - the "Jack of All Trades" - its the option that sucks the least= . ... and even if all these 'bad' - in my opinion - decisions will take place= - that pkg(8) would be able to destroy FreeBSD Base System - I will still = use FreeBSD - because even if FreeBSD will lose its Base System feature - i= t will still be the best overall option out there if You want a free and op= en UNIX system with all needed features. Regards, vermaden Temat: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Data: 2025-08-08 22:38 Nadawca: "Rob Wing" Adresat: "Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav" ;=20 DW: "vermaden" ; "sthaug@nethelp.no" ; "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" ; "freebsd-s= table@freebsd.org" ; "freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.o= rg" ;=20 > Dag, >=20 > mind your attitude towards our users/contributors >=20 > vermaden was clearly not yelling so stop trying to discredit them with su= ch accusations. >=20 > On Friday, August 8, 2025, Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav wro= te: >=20 >> vermaden writes: >> > Current 'vital' thing does NOTHING to protect FreeBSD Base System. >>=20 >> How much longer will it take you to learn that people stop taking you >> seriously when you scream at them? >>=20 >> DES >> --=20 >> Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@FreeBSD.org From nobody Fri Aug 8 21:02:34 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzGhL0z9qz646Hk; 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Fri, 8 Aug 2025 17:02:54 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-ThreadId: T83c6f35c7dc1c65a Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2025 17:02:34 -0400 From: "Dan Langille" To: "Brandon Allbery" , "Rob Wing" Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= , vermaden , sthaug , "FreeBSD Current" , "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org" Message-Id: <1abb1487-108c-4182-89de-834e93846142@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20250808.091053.1322595805169591390.sthaug@nethelp.no> <86h5yi43kp.fsf@ltc.des.dev> <86wm7d1ze2.fsf@ltc.des.dev> Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=408730eee14447d7a18ac4351f2eef7d X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.59 / 15.00]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[langille.org,none]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:202.12.124.128/27]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[langille.org:s=fm3,messagingengine.com:s=fm3]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[202.12.124.148:from]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[freebsd.org,interia.pl,nethelp.no]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org,freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org,freebsd-stable@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[langille.org:+,messagingengine.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[8]; ASN(0.00)[asn:151847, ipnet:202.12.124.0/24, country:AU]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[dan]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[messagingengine.com:dkim] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzGhK0sCYz3b4S X-Spamd-Bar: -- --408730eee14447d7a18ac4351f2eef7d Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, Aug 8, 2025, at 4:38 PM, Brandon Allbery wrote: > Maybe I should clarify that in the old days, all caps *was* considered yelling. Maybe things have changed since then. No, things have not changed. It's still considered yelling. -- Dan Langille dan@langille.org --408730eee14447d7a18ac4351f2eef7d Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On Fri, Aug 8, 2025, at 4:38 PM, Brandon Allbery wrote:
Maybe I should clarify that in the old days, all caps *was* considered yelling. Maybe things have changed since then.

No, things have not changed. It's still considered yelling.

--
  Dan Langille
  dan@langille.org


--408730eee14447d7a18ac4351f2eef7d-- From nobody Fri Aug 8 21:05:47 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzGln2fnwz646ls; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 21:05:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Received: from smtpo69.interia.pl (smtpo69.interia.pl [217.74.67.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzGlm3sGgz3f48; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 21:05:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2025 23:05:47 +0200 From: vermaden Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature To: Dan Langille , Brandon Allbery , Rob Wing Cc: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?= , sthaug , FreeBSD Current , "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org" X-Mailer: interia.pl/pf09 In-Reply-To: <1abb1487-108c-4182-89de-834e93846142@app.fastmail.com> References: <20250808.091053.1322595805169591390.sthaug@nethelp.no> <86h5yi43kp.fsf@ltc.des.dev> <86wm7d1ze2.fsf@ltc.des.dev> <1abb1487-108c-4182-89de-834e93846142@app.fastmail.com> X-Originating-IP: 45.148.42.1 Message-Id: List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=-wxq5Omj1WeYRa/BFDnQM" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=interia.pl; s=biztos; t=1754687154; bh=yigdTPHNmOBEbgMLfmqihX2EwgTLmJ7RXNXP4dOeFR0=; h=Date:From:Subject:To:Message-Id:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=pDIWT4ulIyvHhYyZ7Wy7AocekPGf/u2VMMaTOUaUJpb3E3AVZ/2IIgS+51SFORGrW 0mOiz7nrt0zk+dwJBQ5Lwnf4+M1vrmwgG+3EPl/pYvlXCr1O+GCysOFzIuMUajZqVs PAwgwKNJg2o1UrDwkXfJu4NOCNVgPHHZORVYRGLw= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzGlm3sGgz3f48 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16138, ipnet:217.74.64.0/22, country:PL] --=-wxq5Omj1WeYRa/BFDnQM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Show me please a way to mark importance of a thing without using ALL CAPS i= n a plain text ...Should I use Markdown like that: *important*Should I use = Markdown like that: _important_Should I use Markdown like that: "important"= Something else instead of so called SCREAMING?Temat: Re: PKGBASE Removes Fr= eeBSD Base System FeatureData: 2025-08-08 23:03Nadawca: "Dan Langille" <= dan@langille.org>Adresat: "Brandon Allbery" <allbery.b@gmail.com>;= "Rob Wing" <rob.fx907@gmail.com>; DW: "Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav" <= ;des@freebsd.org>; "vermaden" <vermaden@interia.pl>; "sthaug" <= sthaug@nethelp.no>; "FreeBSD Current" <freebsd-current@freebsd.org>= ;; "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" <freebsd-stable@freebsd.org>; "freebs= d-pkgbase@freebsd.org" <freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org>; On Fri, Aug 8, = 2025, at 4:38 PM, Brandon Allbery wrote:Maybe I should clarify that in the = old days, all caps *was* considered yelling. Maybe things have changed sinc= e then.No, things have not changed. It's still considered yelling.--  = Dan Langille  dan@langille.org --=-wxq5Omj1WeYRa/BFDnQM Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Show me please a way to mark importance of a thing without= using ALL CAPS in a plain text ...

Should I use Markdown like that:= *important*
Should I use Markdown like that: _important_
Should I us= e Markdown like that: "important"

Something else instead of so calle= d SCREAMING?





Temat: Re= : PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature
Data: 2025-08-08 23:03
= Nadawca: "Dan Langille" <dan@langille.org>
Adresat: "Brandon Allbe= ry" <allbery.b@gmail.com>; "Rob Wing" <rob.fx907@gmail.com>; DW: "Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav" <des@freebsd.org>; "vermaden" <ve= rmaden@interia.pl>; "sthaug" <sthaug@nethelp.no>; "FreeBSD Current= " <freebsd-current@freebsd.org>; "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" <fre= ebsd-stable@freebsd.org>; "freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org" <freebsd-pkgb= ase@freebsd.org>;



On Fri, Aug 8, 2025, at 4:38 PM, Brandon Allbery wrote:
Maybe I should clarify that = in the old days, all caps *was* considered yelling. Maybe things have chang= ed since then.

No, things have not ch= anged. It's still considered yelling.

--
=C2=A0 Dan= Langille
=C2=A0 dan@langille.org




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charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit % uname -a FreeBSD rolling-vm-freebsd4.home.utahime.org 15.0-PRERELEASE FreeBSD 15.0-PRERELEASE #0 main-n279486-619feb9dd00e: Sat Aug 9 04:20:33 JST 2025 rootz@rolling-vm-freebsd4.home.utahime.org:/usr/obj/usr/src/amd64.amd64/sys/GENERIC amd64 % Just after starting `poudriere bulk` system crashes with panic as following screenshot. https://people.freebsd.org/~yasu/FreeBSD-15-CURRENT-amd64-main-n279486-619feb9dd00e.20250809.panic.png --- Yasuhiro Kimura From nobody Fri Aug 8 21:38:18 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzHTl5Y1Pz649bl for ; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 21:38:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from herbert@fastmail.jp) Received: from fout-a5-smtp.messagingengine.com (fout-a5-smtp.messagingengine.com [103.168.172.148]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzHTk6D2yz3mgZ for ; 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Fri, 8 Aug 2025 17:38:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-ThreadId: Af2XzrFsKMY7 Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2025 23:38:18 +0200 From: Herbert To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Message-Id: <17464ee6-e8e4-4f61-9b2f-2584dfd30f5e@betaapp.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <20250809.063330.1488853673471670188.yasu@FreeBSD.org> References: <20250809.063330.1488853673471670188.yasu@FreeBSD.org> Subject: Re: Panic just after starting `poudriere bulk` Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.09 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[fastmail.jp,none]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[fastmail.jp:s=fm3,messagingengine.com:s=fm3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:103.168.172.128/27]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[103.168.172.148:from]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:151847, ipnet:103.168.172.0/24, country:AU]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[messagingengine.com:dkim]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[fastmail.jp]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[fastmail.jp]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[fastmail.jp:+,messagingengine.com:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzHTk6D2yz3mgZ X-Spamd-Bar: ---- On Fri, 8 Aug 2025, at 23:33, Yasuhiro Kimura wrote: > % uname -a > FreeBSD rolling-vm-freebsd4.home.utahime.org 15.0-PRERELEASE FreeBSD > 15.0-PRERELEASE #0 main-n279486-619feb9dd00e: Sat Aug 9 04:20:33 JST > 2025 > rootz@rolling-vm-freebsd4.home.utahime.org:/usr/obj/usr/src/amd64.amd64/sys/GENERIC > amd64 > % > > Just after starting `poudriere bulk` system crashes with panic as > following screenshot. > > https://people.freebsd.org/~yasu/FreeBSD-15-CURRENT-amd64-main-n279486-619feb9dd00e.20250809.panic.png https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=288722 From nobody Fri Aug 8 22:01:48 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzJ0K4zKFz64Chn for ; 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Fri, 08 Aug 2025 22:01:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yasu@FreeBSD.org) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2025 07:01:48 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <20250809.070148.218534928669122763.yasu@FreeBSD.org> To: herbert@fastmail.jp Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Panic just after starting `poudriere bulk` From: Yasuhiro Kimura In-Reply-To: <17464ee6-e8e4-4f61-9b2f-2584dfd30f5e@betaapp.fastmail.com> References: <20250809.063330.1488853673471670188.yasu@FreeBSD.org> <17464ee6-e8e4-4f61-9b2f-2584dfd30f5e@betaapp.fastmail.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.10 on Emacs 31.0.50 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Herbert Subject: Re: Panic just after starting `poudriere bulk` Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2025 23:38:18 +0200 >> % uname -a >> FreeBSD rolling-vm-freebsd4.home.utahime.org 15.0-PRERELEASE FreeBSD >> 15.0-PRERELEASE #0 main-n279486-619feb9dd00e: Sat Aug 9 04:20:33 JST >> 2025 >> rootz@rolling-vm-freebsd4.home.utahime.org:/usr/obj/usr/src/amd64.amd64/sys/GENERIC >> amd64 >> % >> >> Just after starting `poudriere bulk` system crashes with panic as >> following screenshot. >> >> https://people.freebsd.org/~yasu/FreeBSD-15-CURRENT-amd64-main-n279486-619feb9dd00e.20250809.panic.png > > https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=288722 Thanks. I've added myself to CC list of it. --- Yasuhiro Kimura From nobody Fri Aug 8 22:12:30 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzJDk5j6xz64Dgc; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 22:12:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Received: from smtpo49.interia.pl (smtpo49.interia.pl [217.74.67.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzJDj3DHSz3trJ; Fri, 08 Aug 2025 22:12:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=interia.pl header.s=biztos header.b=QiMc8e5R; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of vermaden@interia.pl designates 217.74.67.49 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=vermaden@interia.pl; dmarc=pass (policy=quarantine) header.from=interia.pl Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2025 00:12:30 +0200 From: vermaden Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature To: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?= , "sthaug@nethelp.no" Cc: "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org" X-Mailer: interia.pl/pf09 In-Reply-To: References: <20250808.091053.1322595805169591390.sthaug@nethelp.no> <86h5yi43kp.fsf@ltc.des.dev> X-Originating-IP: 45.148.42.1 Message-Id: List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=interia.pl; s=biztos; t=1754691154; bh=xlW2yRbc9UtiUsiuW3/hStJlFRQ5JJJBuDIGmptTtGk=; h=Date:From:Subject:To:Message-Id:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=QiMc8e5RMScXFdNXmaCWIuFFPCGSCIpmfRogthQr/RC+Pr+O34HBISgN2tKn12jMr 5cTstCesZyLIleqAOWDk+JHHpJW3NdziykazajtdIYfFFiqaDjgZF/93r204wmpaHT jYUfH1Yak06bemuGyS57MTRW1FbNJmX6U277CE1I= X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.60 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[interia.pl:dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.999]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[interia.pl,quarantine]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:217.74.64.0/22]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_VERYGOOD(-0.20)[217.74.67.49:from]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[interia.pl:s=biztos]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.10)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[interia.pl]; SUSPICIOUS_AUTH_ORIGIN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[interia.pl]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[interia.pl:+]; HAS_XOIP(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org,freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org,freebsd-stable@freebsd.org]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16138, ipnet:217.74.64.0/22, country:PL]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzJDj3DHSz3trJ X-Spamd-Bar: ---- After that PKGBASE deletion I was not able to stop that 'now empty' Jail. Solution was to 'fill' it with content from ANY Jail to allow stop scripts = to function. # rsync-delete.sh /jail/fbsdjail /jail/bsdinstalljail The 'rsync-delete.sh' script is here: - https://github.com/vermaden/scripts/blob/master/rsync-delete.sh After that I was able to stop it with 'typical' commands. Hope that helps. Regards, vermaden Temat: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Data: 2025-08-08 17:03 Nadawca: "vermaden" <vermaden@interia.pl> Adresat: "Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav" <des@FreeBSD.org>; "sthaug@nethelp.n= o" <sthaug@nethelp.no>;=20 DW: "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" <freebsd-current@freebsd.org>; "freebs= d-stable@freebsd.org" <freebsd-stable@freebsd.org>; freebsd-pkgbase@Free= BSD.org;=20 >=20 > > Current 'vital' thing does NOTHING to protect FreeBSD Base System. >=20 > I literally just wiped one of my Jails because of this 'vital' protection. >=20 > That 'vital' thing is useless in current state after issuing this command: >=20 > # pkg delete -af >=20 > Log below. >=20 > Unbootable and unusable FreeBSD left after the command that only removed packages without PKGBASE and with PKGBASE you are left with dust. >=20 > Even /rescue is gone. >=20 > root@bsdinstalljail:/ # pkg info > FreeBSD-acct-14.1p1 System Accounting Utilities > FreeBSD-acct-man-14.1 System Accounting Utilities (Manual Pages) > FreeBSD-acpi-14.1 ACPI Utilities > (...) > FreeBSD-zfs-dev-14.1p1 ZFS Libraries and Utilities (Development Files) > FreeBSD-zfs-man-14.1 ZFS Libraries and Utilities (Manual Pages) > FreeBSD-zoneinfo-14.1p7 zoneinfo package > beadm-1.3.5_1 Solaris-like utility to manage Boot Environments on ZFS > pkg-2.2.1 Package manager >=20 > root@bsdinstalljail:/ # pkg delete -af > Checking integrity... done (0 conflicting) > Deinstallation has been requested for the following 271 packages (of 0 packages in the universe): >=20 > Installed packages to be REMOVED: > FreeBSD-acct: 14.1p1 > FreeBSD-acct-man: 14.1 > FreeBSD-acpi: 14.1 > (...) > [bsdinstalljail.lab.org] [268/271] Deleting files for FreeBSD-zfs-man-14.1: 100% > [bsdinstalljail.lab.org] [269/271] Deinstalling FreeBSD-zoneinfo-14.1p7... > [bsdinstalljail.lab.org] [269/271] Deleting files for FreeBSD-zoneinfo-14.1p7: 100% > [bsdinstalljail.lab.org] [270/271] Deinstalling beadm-1.3.5_1... > [bsdinstalljail.lab.org] [270/271] Deleting files for beadm-1.3.5_1: 100% > [bsdinstalljail.lab.org] [271/271] Deinstalling pkg-2.2.1... > [bsdinstalljail.lab.org] [271/271] Deleting files for pkg-2.2.1: 100% > pkg: Cannot runscript POST-DEINSTALL:No such file or directory > You may need to manually remove /usr/local/etc/pkg.conf if it is no longer needed. >=20 > root@bsdinstalljail:/ # ls > /bin/sh: ls: not found >=20 > root@bsdinstalljail:/ # vi > /bin/sh: vi: not found >=20 > root@bsdinstalljail:/ # pkg > /bin/sh: pkg: not found >=20 > root@bsdinstalljail:/ # pkg-static > /bin/sh: pkg-static: not found >=20 > root@bsdinstalljail:/ # reboot > /bin/sh: reboot: not found >=20 > root@bsdinstalljail:/ # goodbye > /bin/sh: goodbye: not found >=20 > root@bsdinstalljail:/ # /rescue/ls /rescue > /bin/sh: /rescue/ls: not found >=20 > root@bsdinstalljail:/ # /rescue/ls.pkgsave /rescue > rescue: ls.pkgsave not compiled in > usage: rescue ..., where is one of: > cat chflags chio chmod cp date dd df echo ed red expr getfacl hostname kenv > kill ln link ls mkdir mv pkill pgrep ps pwd realpath rm unlink rmdir setfacl > sh -sh sleep stty sync test [ csh -csh tcsh -tcsh camcontrol clri devfs dmesg > dump rdump dumpfs dumpon fsck fsck_ffs fsck_4.2bsd fsck_ufs fsck_msdosfs fsdb > fsirand gbde geom glabel gpart ifconfig init kldconfig kldload kldstat > kldunload ldconfig md5 mdconfig mdmfs mknod mount mount_cd9660 mount_msdosfs > mount_nfs mount_nullfs mount_udf mount_unionfs newfs newfs_msdos nos-tun > reboot fastboot halt fasthalt restore rrestore rcorder route savecore shutdown > poweroff swapon sysctl tunefs umount ccdconfig ping ping6 rtsol ipf routed > rtquery bectl zfs zpool bsdlabel disklabel fdisk dhclient head mt sed tail tee > gzip gunzip gzcat zcat bzip2 bunzip2 bzcat less more xz unxz lzma unlzma xzcat > lzcat zstd unzstd zstdcat zstdmt fetch tar nc vi ex id groups whoami iscsictl > zdb chroot chown chgrp iscsid rescue >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Temat: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature > Data: 2025-08-08 10:31 > Nadawca: "Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav" <des@FreeBSD.org> > Adresat: sthaug@nethelp.no;=20 > DW: freebsd-current@freebsd.org; freebsd-stable@freebsd.org;=20 >=20 >>=20 >>> sthaug@nethelp.no writes: >>> - It's important to have a clean separation between the base system >>> (whether that is installed using the package system or not) and the >>> rest. An easy way to list "these are the base system packages" is >>> absolutely needed. >>=20 >> You can easily create an alias for this: >>=20 >> pkg query -e '%o =3D base' %n >>=20 >> If you want something closer to `pkg info`, try: >>=20 >> pkg query -e '%o =3D base' '%n-%v %c' | column -tl 2 >>=20 >>> - Maybe there should be an extra step if you try to delete packages >>> from the base system? >>=20 >> There already is: >>=20 >> % sudo pkg delete FreeBSD-clibs >> Checking integrity... done (0 conflicting) >> The following package(s) are locked or vital and may not be > removed: >> =20 >> FreeBSD-clibs >> =20 >> 1 packages requested for removal: 1 locked, 0 missing >>=20 >> The only matter that remains to be settled is which packages should be >> marked vital: >>=20 >> % pkg query -e '%V =3D 1' %n >> FreeBSD-clibs >> FreeBSD-runtime >>=20 >> DES >> --=20 >> Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@FreeBSD.org >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 From nobody Sat Aug 9 02:03:00 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzPM732Hnz64d0t for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 02:03:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.pri.ee) Received: from mail.ketas.si.pri.ee (d004-fea2-0bff-021e-13e8-8437-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee [IPv6:2001:7d0:8437:13e8:21e:bff:fea2:d004]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzPM62pKXz3MnJ for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 02:03:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.pri.ee) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=ketas.si.pri.ee header.s=ketas-si-pri-ee-20240416002854-4096 header.b="DybTh/5d"; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.pri.ee 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https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.79 / 15.00]; HFILTER_HOSTNAME_5(3.00)[d004-fea2-0bff-021e-13e8-8437-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.995]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[ketas.si.pri.ee,reject]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[ketas.si.pri.ee:s=ketas-si-pri-ee-20240416002854-4096]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.20)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2001:7d0:8437:1300::/56]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:3249, ipnet:2001:7d0::/32, country:EE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[ketas.si.pri.ee:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzPM62pKXz3MnJ X-Spamd-Bar: / i think vermadden actually "screamed" because this turned into kind of a "d= esbsd" discussion=2E isn't "vmdbsd" either=2E is, well, "free" bsd, funnily before this turns into complete virtual fistfight=2E=2E=2E who has authority on this os anyway? i already once mentioned elsewhere that not much goes on in fbsd=2E as com= pared to eg, ff=2E i consider mozilla having gone past "user is our friend = approach" lately=2E unfortunately without users, projects become meaningles= s but here? who has, like, powers? is it: old devs who have write access to src repo? new devs who have write access to src repo? currently elected core? any of previous core? any original guys like mckusick? big companies? small companies? sysadmins? users? random hackers? sunday fbsd users? the foundation? any other known guys? or i mean gals, we have those too, tho i only recall one once had fights o= ver inclusion problems which i don't mind of who wrote the code any nation state? who else? at which level any of those should affect things? how much time (like code or so), or money does one need to invest before (= s)he has voice? how much value (s)he needs to obtain from fbsd before (s)he= has, again, "voice" / permission to be heard=2E=2E=2E because it affects direction of fbsd goes to when there was pkg switch, i found it too fast and without much real reaso= n=2E somebodys fs got full i-node wise? old thing had more files=2E new one= has sql(ite) db=2E there was also concern on what if it breaks=2E now ther= e are 7 backups of it, made daily pkg however did improve things but switch was for unknown reasons, funnily=2E i didn't have pressing need= as sysadmin, so who did? who makes decisions for me and why? decisions, when made without you in loop can be either good or bad maybe we need like freebsd user committee too? but then, what happens to u= sers who don't want to be in it? i haven't seen those discussions yet much=2E maybe they have been hidden i= n number of different places=2E there's literally a ton of places where peo= ple talk about fbsd=2E officially or not=2E it's not possible to follow the= m all=2E basically there's some kind of fbsd discussion on pretty much ever= ywhere and in every language=2E because apparently it gets used=2E which is= a good thing but yeah, on pkg, on ports, somehow poudriere is a thing=2E that's also we= ird, because who says i can't build ports manually? i recally this linux user angry comment that fbsd only has two fses=2E a u= fs and zfs=2E a bicycle and a rocket=2E nothing in between it's kind of same with other things=2E to pkg it was upgrade from bicycle = to rocket=2E pkgbase is same=2E so is poudriere=2E which has this horrible = hard name that in french means a building where gunpowder is stored=2E unsu= re why this name=2E because all the power is there? or that they sometimes = blew up, leveling better part of a town (part)? poudriere was like addon but now it's like standard? ports don't fully wor= k with portupgrade, etc=2E and it's a hard thing to use=2E seems like it's = best use case is in fbsd build cluster=2E funnily this is where it's used a= nd this is for what it was built for=2E elsewhere it's usage is complicated anyway, a rocket is good, gets you straight to the moon=2E it's also a "ro= cket science"=2E what happens if you don't need it? where's car and bus and= taxi and motorcycle and truck and so on here? learning to fly a "rocket" is awesome skill=2E but it's a huge learning cu= rve=2E well it depends=2E can you use vi? vi is a editor that's often used = as a example for thing that for legacy reasons has been something that's ex= tremely hard for new user to use=2E i still have vi usage issues despite de= cades this rocket flying skills is why we have such long discussion here anyway= =2E many, me too, find rocket really good but how to fly? like, it's hard= =2E and people don't like "hard"=2E people get angry when hard=2E i get ang= ry when hard=2E for a number of times in my life i have smashed a thing tha= t angers me fbsd was very different when i came from linux=2E now it's like good, some= how=2E i have wondered where to go from here if needed like, where to go if 32bit is gone? old fbsd? i mean not really i386 but e= g arm=2E reason was good too=2E no dev power=2E the problem is that 32bit a= rms are still selling=2E unsure who sells pure i386 but arm is here=2E i al= so have vague reasons why 32bit gets into way of developing stuff=2E but as= user, it's different=2E hw is sold=2E hw is cheap=2E but fbsd doesn't supp= ort it? i hope fbsd actually supports it until hw is not sold anymore and m= ost of it is physically dead or in museum=2E mips is out already but i swea= r i saw mips being sold still it's also different to look it from user side=2E i know arm is fragmented = but user just wants to run it same with pkgbase maybe a disconnect between user and dev i guess this is endless discussion, so i could just ask who has power to d= ecide? when i came to fbsd this was like oh a slow pace=2E now it's kind of too f= ast=2E i can already see linux failures=2E a rush is bad=2E rush gives you = everything=2E at a cost unsure if ixsystems stops funding fbsd if they don't implement pkgbase fas= t or what? quick look showed that company worker being first, 6 years ago, = asking people to test it=2E maybe it had a earlier development somewhere el= se too is that the needle that pricks into somebody's ass? because i have like moderatively low interest in pkgbase=2E all i see is, = now it's easier to include stuff for embedded usage=2E and now every file i= s tracked rest is harder=2E the *=2Epkgsave=2E the skills maybe=2E unsure, i'd have = to try=2E and on different systems and env i think indeed pkgbase goes in=2E it might get some updates to plug the sc= reams btw, i never understand the shoot first and ask questions later approach i still have issues with libxo too=2E idea is good, but it's a rocket=2E l= ibxo also came from, was it, juniper? i once moaned about it=2E feedback wa= s mixed, from are you trolling to ok maybe we need to take second look to i= t so does money control fbsd after all? also, go and look how dragonflybsd was created=2E make sure to check into = mailing lists to see people insulting each other=2E seems bad btw i like the fbsd approach on how you could build stuff locally=2E befor= e it was even too much maybe=2E now it's too less? there's a cost here=2E t= here's more control in local builds=2E time, energy=2E also less external a= ttacks=2E i don't know what linux distro users do=2E do they always trust m= aker of that distro? only focus on ease to install and use? linux users als= o told me that fbsd ports look bad because as if every port has like person= al owner to it=2E despite linux packages have people behind them too=2E i w= ould be they also have different people working on stuff=2E it's just hidde= n from users who don't see it=2E "system" does it for them=2E some people h= ave told that now they can like finally use fbsd because they can just inst= all stuff with sane package manager and don't need to wait=2E i mean there = was pkg_add before you know=2E worked, even if poorly i'm unsure, maybe that's why pkg came to be? i personally don't have issue= s with local builds and if you are large fbsd user (i'm not right now but i= imagine how others do it), it's probably even good idea=2E less load on pr= ojects volunteered machines and more secure=2E and maybe not much time and = power either=2E esp with latest hw so yeah i have ton of questions about every design decision of fbsd=2E whe= re it, any one thing, came=2E why=2E benefits? drawbacks? mitigation? etc= =2E=2E=2E From nobody Sat Aug 9 06:29:25 2025 X-Original-To: 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-0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dg@dglawrence.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=dglawrence.com; s=ab7ba439; t=1754720967; bh=xuK3awleKfv+1PuJXXncszmxRhZbijFvIDmDjFpmVuA=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To; b=ZIYEvKaOuhvL5nQKet+8N1Eiw73jRtfq+60kuFSN9BopO8iRMCIf8EL9DTIUYMv6q 8WGRlkWGXsgjRaEtGwyg5d4Tuf6uzjTJGaqBkgyFjKSeW0kA3fJ9iEy5T0+pg20uUH t0zlBvcNuWbHadLv/1rS0cWsh3vEmyOpfhWRCE10= Received: (from dg@localhost) by mailx.dglawrence.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 5796TPv8042901; Fri, 8 Aug 2025 23:29:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dg@dglawrence.com) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 23:29:25 -0700 From: David Greenman-Lawrence To: Sulev-Madis Silber Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Message-ID: <20250809062925.GN26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> References: <20250808.091053.1322595805169591390.sthaug@nethelp.no> <86h5yi43kp.fsf@ltc.des.dev> <2F323B4C-DA2E-47FF-A8E9-FB515B5D446D@ketas.si.pri.ee> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2F323B4C-DA2E-47FF-A8E9-FB515B5D446D@ketas.si.pri.ee> X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.2 (dglawrence.com [10.19.1.8]); Fri, 08 Aug 2025 23:29:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzWG6457pz3nhw X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7922, ipnet:50.76.0.0/14, country:US] > i think vermadden actually "screamed" because this turned into kind of a "desbsd" discussion. isn't "vmdbsd" either. is, well, "free" bsd, funnily > > before this turns into complete virtual fistfight... > > who has authority on this os anyway? > > i already once mentioned elsewhere that not much goes on in fbsd. as compared to eg, ff. i consider mozilla having gone past "user is our friend approach" lately. unfortunately without users, projects become meaningless > > but here? > > who has, like, powers? is it: > > old devs who have write access to src repo? > new devs who have write access to src repo? > currently elected core? > any of previous core? > any original guys like mckusick? > big companies? > small companies? > sysadmins? > users? > random hackers? > sunday fbsd users? > the foundation? > any other known guys? > or i mean gals, we have those too, tho i only recall one once had fights over inclusion problems which i don't mind of who wrote the code > any nation state? > who else? In the mid 1990s, for a short time, it would have been me - David Greenman as FreeBSD "Principal Architect". I didn't wear that hat very long, because something not too dissimilar to this came up and I tried to find a compromise solution that neither party liked. It was a nightmare and ultimately I was blamed for it. I realized that an authority, at least within a single person, was not the right way to resolve these things, so I voluntarily resigned the position. You've said a lot of interesting things, and I apologize for trimming your message for brevity. If others want to selectively respond to that, then they should quote you directly. FWIW, I do have an opinion on this: I think that "pkg delete -af" is a useful thing that should not destroy your base system. We should find a way to make that work as it always has - to restore a system to its base without destroying it. Now, how to do that? Well, one way is the separate pkgbase. Another is to have some way to flag or protect the base packages so that they are not included in this instance - make them immutable somehow. It just doesn't make sense to destroy the running system no matter how you slice it. -DG * Dr. David G. Lawrence * * DG Labs Pave the road of life with opportunities. From nobody Sat Aug 9 06:46:10 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzWdh2FbQz63YQx for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 06:46:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzWdh1Gk2z3qnP; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 06:46:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754721992; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=H5eXU/Op5bnLhBlBS2BoMOyLeVSwNjcf9m9Pq+S3UeI=; b=DgaMFK5HB3N/cePmNFUV0xyXch9FVDR5fZq/vfpj8icQm7b79N3LLnnrEzOnpfzRZkW2eg Gccbr4BNqDk4LKFR992+DFyZDlpgGlQV0mtgHEQNTC4lvfow4B0FRBoXPOWj5ZBXXM9R+p qHFh7BqnIPPErfEvmmha7h5wS7o3IV87RZKegLolMOfTiaLcu1bVdyeaUPxqHZ5x9Hzm5D p7NwFTGE3t+bmjTmBH9FEZ3x4YZxIhFpH3kM7HenbsrVVoNF9fL6FTGTCzEdjmDex6rkDV CaIKJzlON6iwkyV61olewDWFaj/BuOxREgFzxb7vMYxcTS6oywroxBKos3w5Pw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754721992; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=H5eXU/Op5bnLhBlBS2BoMOyLeVSwNjcf9m9Pq+S3UeI=; b=n61DE8Xt0rt6jQWPrYpBK8IEKJuhf381193V30PoujuxZqtWTAl6ZdTaVpWGbiggaSXpXp TZecV9fbcrZUHQiddcUh+e+QmifSVtAgPk7/Jw6OxSLGeYadctuWBfVQmljEQm5wafxDag UIJo2YN9wu9kp9AzwaVpNnMNC+23ocnwbszAILAcRNGZ/Z+bLOy7krVslbGFPP4VlacoF3 nYILgv7iuEbvGUWj4i0O/IYPUNjfKQ6UZm1tANG212fSLCi7r388I9I035dIl8O/na/jVR 8EqGe1fA5hJhqana7IRI5/tYRiVCi2R+oZH5ls/1nNv6cNiBx2iE6HOWf3lacg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1754721992; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=Ji7fNpyA9bk/7OL2N5sj+KdbNfMi54yDuLn/N1tV1o3TmZI/M31RPNwnlr9zU/Swg7crpU eoMj0LxnWfmrynXF7YAHE1URK/fCbm3LYwR6RL6hSq4CBr8jB3KMvg/zpMGDT/yhA3AAKT 6R2Yl0yTUeBewflyKhGDspw8q5laW08rG0PLtCpSNoZBB7r3cTWEO7+yY05Pm3usDyjYP5 TvTzAXgtvJwMH6VV75PQtRrZMeB/duYvm8tburBceVIZkzywREtHBChitZIUmIqX2fBqn4 IZM8iQFkiFiW/sKQGYFHShZrOeJMzb5b0ySgKLG001MqMHkG+Vd86nwLoghUvQ== Received: from smtp.theravensnest.org (smtp.theravensnest.org [45.77.103.195]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: theraven) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4bzWdh0F29zwZc; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 06:46:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@freebsd.org) Received: from smtpclient.apple (host86-143-41-189.range86-143.btcentralplus.com [86.143.41.189]) by smtp.theravensnest.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 45DD3BF8; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 07:46:31 +0100 (BST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: David Chisnall List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 07:46:10 +0100 Message-Id: <929543B2-633E-44B5-B6F6-F292CCEADAB3@freebsd.org> References: <20250809062925.GN26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> Cc: Sulev-Madis Silber , freebsd-current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20250809062925.GN26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> To: David Greenman-Lawrence X-Mailer: iPad Mail (22G86) On 9 Aug 2025, at 07:29, David Greenman-Lawrence wrote: >=20 > FWIW, I do have an opinion on this: I think that "pkg delete -af" is > a useful thing that should not destroy your base system. We should find > a way to make that work as it always has Today, it will destroy any kernel modules installed from packages, including= those necessary for the display to work. It will destroy the ability for Wi= Fi to work if you=E2=80=99re using wifibox. There are a lot of other things i= n ports that are essential to the system for some systems. David From nobody Sat Aug 9 06:52:47 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzWmx53JMz63Z2c for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 06:52:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dg@dglawrence.com) Received: from dglawrence.com (dglawrence.com [50.76.111.10]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mailx.dglawrence.com", Issuer "mailx.dglawrence.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzWmx3WrKz3sBb; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 06:52:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dg@dglawrence.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from mailx.dglawrence.com ([10.19.1.8]) by dglawrence.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 5796qlMS043025 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 8 Aug 2025 23:52:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dg@dglawrence.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=dglawrence.com; s=ab7ba439; t=1754722368; bh=ODDJlvuihZUszYzQy0YqLYyGnaaUt9/dHB9bufGbcXw=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To; b=p8GqFykA6DYzXAjq8FwJsp7DhcmOkqzgiCe1rv3LqVNf+bGRkX9CaJ7MLWTnzmBPL a9Mj45nJtJVebENVbgGt3/T9iAlRWwN74d8T4S2hJoML/Iam0aWSJ/rWgbAXHh5NML p+szD4kVEjRP2RuBQzhVqR77uxFP7NrOhcKfKFNo= Received: (from dg@localhost) by mailx.dglawrence.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 5796ql3J043024; Fri, 8 Aug 2025 23:52:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dg@dglawrence.com) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 23:52:47 -0700 From: David G Lawrence To: David Chisnall Cc: Sulev-Madis Silber , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Message-ID: <20250809065247.GO26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> References: <20250809062925.GN26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> <929543B2-633E-44B5-B6F6-F292CCEADAB3@freebsd.org> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <929543B2-633E-44B5-B6F6-F292CCEADAB3@freebsd.org> X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.2 (dglawrence.com [10.19.1.8]); Fri, 08 Aug 2025 23:52:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzWmx3WrKz3sBb X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7922, ipnet:50.76.0.0/14, country:US] > On 9 Aug 2025, at 07:29, David Greenman-Lawrence wrote: > > > > FWIW, I do have an opinion on this: I think that "pkg delete -af" is > > a useful thing that should not destroy your base system. We should find > > a way to make that work as it always has > > Today, it will destroy any kernel modules installed from packages, including those necessary for the display to work. It will destroy the ability for WiFi to work if you???re using wifibox. There are a lot of other things in ports that are essential to the system for some systems. We can fix that, too. ...but destroying kernel modules doesn't mean your system doesn't work - it just means X11 won't work when you reboot - but then it wouldn't anyway because you deleted X11. But, here's the thing: X11 didn't work when you first installed the base system, either. And perhaps your Wifi didn't work out of the box, either. So you have some work to do to get back basic functionality - but you knew that when you did the "pkg delete -af" in the first place. -DG * Dr. David G. Lawrence * * DG Labs Pave the road of life with opportunities. From nobody Sat Aug 9 06:53:05 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzWnK4h1hz63Z2r; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 06:53:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from truckman@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzWnJ6Qrjz3sWN; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 06:53:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from truckman@FreeBSD.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754722389; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=WT5DIkLaxreSuiPKMsPAY+rghPd1nYZVkW/BxVLtr/g=; b=SzgWcoSPDltwrsAbvcPBWH5cS9v6A1nGNRa/Q2Cw8ywpzoSj7V2N2L3+fqPmrPfgqCweeG vjPTzojZG0u9FM0y8XeGbFL+URtoHftfhGYqPHh8JMsSFX9BI3CoydJjzi8AMCzmfNxbIT GEtN/cYMebf7BB5JIZX3qEW+A11cf8LFSOPYrFRFb6QYS+hXvTkvVaa7cwltkWysJjRqsh sK9XpGvw7EqBQ9zM6dY7Vt4EOJOrpCX4Pgb/DAS9jwm43VvRwu84oNgxOgv7c8MTnKdKhi pmgOy+GyXZrZTtqnzyrKUuJGs/GNQmgmGi0aGNZ1iURLuj+KrjMu1zcJZTvKEQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754722389; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=WT5DIkLaxreSuiPKMsPAY+rghPd1nYZVkW/BxVLtr/g=; b=t2T0LgEG5WI7g36GbDJrgijvgdntMqO7ACaanbtyseEIoqDfpipondCBWqXN4XviFLFbIT M4U3Oc/GgPE2w5kUjGi+WwjK4GFSF7Ybo2Ep9auoJW0tjxtRDdC57nrA5Ou6ljMx9dE23L u6dg6L26wYAi2zOkRoU/yJZuUtsWsPP8+qsQZ6qMr3URL0TnQOGLvP0uGcbj2+E47jvbvC Ux2M623hKvWpvyBuUs677D4w3AK8n7K3LEThRy0X4YFHnmj3Sj8oIGlxO/vrTZsAZY/qjW jzXeifyhyoIqtgIYjqczQz1KHgH/iOjJ5SAlVbRh5gpIKypcLTTaq7c1Py4cog== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1754722389; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=UWbG1SM2osyB3+603MItA58xckB9f1lfmuj5W12h2ydLlYK+7F3VRb5N44tHFSUjSPs8Hq 04QnzLWp+GyRkqBEJi+Hvii+G0Wgn1NtfGgBeuyYeJsIaSo2o4Z6aJMK7xQJIYpuxgTRTU pnqy/6ROtNEHw/obbFGIr16b9ELMpnK0XPXT8vpHlxqHw3MF5Da0gRTiUPDLWlNIRRKAtw 0mVJN4Lppwit43ZUIlveVqiIVD/EqBd1BxRoXEQPDkBmYKlZz5TlNRpJ98BnvxcC3uzXNS MObVcQRaueDWbBfxP/RgoJpU0N9DKI2bcplsWWbUfmog/2GNG3DWLV3IK8k7yg== Received: from mousie.catspoiler.org (unknown [76.212.85.177]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: truckman) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4bzWnH4p1xzwtf; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 06:53:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from truckman@FreeBSD.org) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 23:53:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Lewis Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature To: Dimitry Andric cc: David Chisnall , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= , Tomek CEDRO , Colin Percival , vermaden , Sulev-Madis Silber , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <864iui3si5.fsf@ltc.des.dev> <86pld62alk.fsf@ltc.des.dev> <0CC405ED-BCFC-41AD-A487-5261421BF8A6@FreeBSD.org> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=iso-8859-13 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Content-Disposition: INLINE On 8 Aug, Dimitry Andric wrote: > On 8 Aug 2025, at 15:56, David Chisnall wrote: >>=20 >> On 8 Aug 2025, at 14:42, Dag-Erling Sm=B8rgrav wrote: >>>=20 >>> Tomek CEDRO writes: >>>> [...] from user perspective these changes were easy to adapt to :-) >>>=20 >>> So will this one. >>=20 >> Let=FFs remember the thing that started this entire thread: `pkg delete >> -af` >>=20 >> This is an *incredibly* stupid thing to do. Long before pkg came >> along, I did the equivalent of this and managed to lock myself out of >> a headless box by doing this because I forgot that I was using the >> ports version of openssh instead of the base one. >=20 > I'm one of the people that regularly runs `pkg delete -af`, even with > `-y` added. :) That said, I only use this when I have completely > rebuilt a ports collection with poudriere against a newer base jail, > and then I'd like to start completely from scratch with freshly > installed packages. This also clears out any unnecessary non-leaf > packages there were pulled in by a previous package build. pkg upgrade -af pkg autoremove > Obviously that is an outlier scenario! But does pkg have a way to > express "show me packages only from this particular repo", or "delete > only packages from this particular repo"? That would make it easy to > do "delete only the packages from ports, not from base". >=20 > -Dimitry >=20 >=20 From nobody Sat Aug 9 07:08:53 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzX7T0njcz63b9j for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 07:08:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mmel@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzX7T03lHz3wxP for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 07:08:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mmel@FreeBSD.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754723333; h=from:from:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=i0v7OQBTdSpSjy6dLwSsN2ihpvnzOQ5VSdDTuHbwwxs=; b=qeJrnwFWQGWmCDf+KdsFBNCyecYnOQwnZEY80DCxrjpc37cVez1wgQ+tEa0CQAh4xIqvib JPmYCXV7uOyKwjc5vqWSHx8ip/CwKv7xsnur64WfAGj6eF5WDV9W/xVYLts4i1RLfCQDuH gna/1uxlfbMiCWGOXSknEXPuwwB7uWoGsKoiu5Iut5vh+t5ysouQImXGL9i7OlnCX3OBJa yfXLMCxd/7eSYikRL4iwUJ0Bv9m60PRrYMnsbnzlIwFymQwdKhZ7cB3I/Tht1CFQPeaBiT EZkH4qlraAblzUB69VYQ7yFC/fr4NzVePfQCZ88N6Y19S7LZQHH2GTTYIrfm2g== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754723333; h=from:from:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=i0v7OQBTdSpSjy6dLwSsN2ihpvnzOQ5VSdDTuHbwwxs=; b=A5kgSv3WFeWN141AhIx0shZ/b6WO3xEy8nmfgpw0FzjE2aeZWYexcKk9quBrUJc6KB1DCH kPFgg+fsp0bBk9NsmNuRuhRrjfgL69Pr/P/AyeeENz/itBuoVrEIincBTe+DfT+rE7eA1X uqQc3Hjk54x/nOdAmoY5KgOtohtVNO22dx8b1Yp9+0/ZD8J6kDgWj42KKw0MU2/nT66vjw XPyEF35PHGCF74+Josx2vyo2JdYX2yKOhngDiUnORmBzhB/+qBPj4TExwXQvmZxHaEn+4W n8aAWBDZaD+c6Y5LFfnkGVchVfT5EG0jmQ4URomMJJo2K0RXBrignYWdP9vKmA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1754723333; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=IDuv8ckvnNvDDTMmdpwTbAnOC0W4k7qpVZP+51LV439VGibntqQlNA7vgavEk08QYlyGx2 nGpcDfcTb5mToHn9zAr6mXpNzIrYtqvjZOorIXU3B3mawxErO1Kw5x01egLhKfo3P5xbxI VrLrz+OHH8peMWjJ0tHx8Sia5o1r6dEfIDlNb0PDBOzbwqEb66iSQJQuErXygKzPNoL6Om 0o7J8yAYQk7XS5ubKV0IInJQgai+NWrDZE/t6UT6FNZpK81EZ1MOZ0tBGnVN16RuGvJfEa y+PsigvSjdU9BnPPyfhX9cskyYp/+lPlPCiwinWkYNSlYNX29+YtDMGD0O+BXg== Received: from [IPV6:2001:67c:14a0:5fe0:cc8b:1cd7:47c6:d3d5] (unknown [IPv6:2001:67c:14a0:5fe0:cc8b:1cd7:47c6:d3d5]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: mmel/mail) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4bzX7S4pmCzwxV for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 07:08:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mmel@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <96820ff6-bdb0-4d25-ad78-502e30b7e479@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 09:08:53 +0200 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Reply-To: mmel@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <20250809062925.GN26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> <929543B2-633E-44B5-B6F6-F292CCEADAB3@freebsd.org> <20250809065247.GO26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> Content-Language: cs, en-US From: Michal Meloun In-Reply-To: <20250809065247.GO26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 8/9/2025 8:52 AM, David G Lawrence wrote: >> On 9 Aug 2025, at 07:29, David Greenman-Lawrence wrote: >>> >>> FWIW, I do have an opinion on this: I think that "pkg delete -af" is >>> a useful thing that should not destroy your base system. We should find >>> a way to make that work as it always has >> >> Today, it will destroy any kernel modules installed from packages, including those necessary for the display to work. It will destroy the ability for WiFi to work if you???re using wifibox. There are a lot of other things in ports that are essential to the system for some systems. > > We can fix that, too. ...but destroying kernel modules doesn't mean your > system doesn't work - it just means X11 won't work when you reboot - but then > it wouldn't anyway because you deleted X11. But, here's the thing: X11 didn't > work when you first installed the base system, either. And perhaps your > Wifi didn't work out of the box, either. So you have some work to do to > get back basic functionality - but you knew that when you did the > "pkg delete -af" in the first place. > > -DG I cannot but agree wholeheartedly.. The actual situation with pkg delete and pkgbase is (for me) simply absurd. kmod in the ports is a different problem – it shows the inability of FBSD developers to implement these things on their own, so this solution has some problems. And don't kill me, I fully understand that it's not possible , but that doesn't change the previous fact. Michal From nobody Sat Aug 9 07:55:01 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzY8w407Yz63gN9; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 07:55:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from flo@smeets.xyz) Received: from mail-out.smeets.xyz (mail-out.smeets.xyz [IPv6:2a01:4f8:10a:3543::25:11]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzY8w138mz4373; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 07:55:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from flo@smeets.xyz) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from mail.smeets.xyz (mail.smeets.xyz [IPv6:2a01:4f8:10a:3543::25:3]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange x25519 server-signature ECDSA (prime256v1) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not 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b=CaQAhfwNznbZxFPw1vymeGOs6XXJUWbV7t7S3uwGRrtUDtKurx4a0nN2G8X0EDkeNBz4yi dJJBj9XORM34tSBw== Message-ID: <582d802f-da93-415c-9dee-1f1f1beb1830@smeets.xyz> Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 09:55:01 +0200 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: HEADS-UP: pkgbase pkg upgrade breaks systems Re: after updating to latest, pkg base segfaults and leaves me unbootable Content-Language: en-US To: Dan Mahoney , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: From: Florian Smeets Autocrypt: addr=flo@smeets.xyz; keydata= xsFNBFpyBwsBEADLq0c46orEtbMn4SptX+VJxR1wB4YwaErZme1bqF4nZHIhlRNET22HsHdQ doagaB4uACq0Rj5kHcu614ZnnNkLPyCxWQATx+cbdiFO4/hfT8tAvKnBtiy3awKJ5uGCNO2E zJwXW6KwdDA8XPRySqN8m1yPl+dW0Cls+/vO/QL/6+YLMupmEpSvFxRzAZTQuKyX4+xl+dYI 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micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------fyEJcoD9aAagvzgfT7xfNwmf" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzY8w138mz4373 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:24940, ipnet:2a01:4f8::/32, country:DE] This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------fyEJcoD9aAagvzgfT7xfNwmf Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------1zx0pTS7h0vU0VnhCrGrqCJu"; protected-headers="v1" From: Florian Smeets To: Dan Mahoney , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Message-ID: <582d802f-da93-415c-9dee-1f1f1beb1830@smeets.xyz> Subject: HEADS-UP: pkgbase pkg upgrade breaks systems Re: after updating to latest, pkg base segfaults and leaves me unbootable References: In-Reply-To: --------------1zx0pTS7h0vU0VnhCrGrqCJu Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------tXZaCgF8U1ycGtuhz58h0FiT" 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ystems=20Re:=20after=20updating=0D=0A=20to=20latest,=20pkg=20base= 20segfaults=20and=20leaves=20me=20unbootable|From:=20"Dan=20Mahone y=20(Ports)"=20|In-Reply-To:=20<582d802f-da93-4 15c-9dee-1f1f1beb1830@smeets.xyz>|Date:=20Sat,=209=20Aug=202025=20 01:58:34=20-0700|Cc:=20freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org,=0D=0A=20freebs d-current@freebsd.org|References:=20=0D=0A=20<582d802f-da93-415c-9dee-1f1f1beb1830@s meets.xyz>|To:=20Florian=20Smeets=20; b=aYOZhldalNn9bIFzUQNwV6wc0HYTKY18emliYdFD68V/GC6KomG3mOgA/42SxWdUW L1lL7QxLA6p6R6Xbb0RpOGX9dKv/XZkEfsdNTsn7bxa5kc/HkQD2kGerXixWZ2bEYE G1tJW6ec0UOIFwDQLsHJjsyarwsnGRhG/W+IO5pEaScO7CoyDd/xRTvNciqVqWKLF4 km3rN9bxfLiTGMgPGAF9cFEK++gfr7tD9Bwc+iI/VixmHJmSFpnyIBgpLhlZP0VABj Rr2EBhuek6c0dmyiADnBo+x+DuEzIDr38/IjQx4tAIOCk2QFh2E5DRrObMxFe1Vi7v v0QtaBv1kTF5w== X-Authentication-Warning: prime.gushi.org: Host [IPv6:2001:500:6b:200:c000:0:0:8] claimed to be smtpclient.apple Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3863.100.1\)) Subject: Re: HEADS-UP: pkgbase pkg upgrade breaks systems Re: after updating to latest, pkg base segfaults and leaves me unbootable From: "Dan Mahoney (Ports)" In-Reply-To: <582d802f-da93-415c-9dee-1f1f1beb1830@smeets.xyz> Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 01:58:34 -0700 Cc: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4F4C6FA3-C302-4E23-9236-BA86311FE795@gushi.org> References: <582d802f-da93-415c-9dee-1f1f1beb1830@smeets.xyz> To: Florian Smeets X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3863.100.1) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzZZX5whSz4B7D X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:393507, ipnet:2620:137:6000::/44, country:US] > On Aug 9, 2025, at 12:55=E2=80=AFAM, Florian Smeets = wrote: >=20 > Adding current@ to CC >=20 > On 09.08.25 01:38, Dan Mahoney wrote: >> =EF=BB=BF >> =EF=BB=BF >> (Resending from phone after realizing my list-specific from: wasn=E2=80= =99t set, apologies for weird formatting) >> Hey all, >> After the recent big sleep in pkgbase, I hit the following trying to = upgrade to whatever snapshot was published today: >> [598/1127] Deleting files for p5-MIME-Base32-1.303: 100% >> [599/1127] Deinstalling p5-MIME-Base64-3.16... >> [599/1127] Deleting files for p5-MIME-Base64-3.16: 100% >> Child process pid=3D21537 terminated abnormally: Segmentation fault >> (oh crap) >> root@poudriere:/home/dmahoney # pkg upgrade >> ELF interpreter /libexec/ld-elf.so.1 not found, error 2 >> Abort >> (double crap) >=20 > Yes, I had the same issue yesterday evening. When the system was back, = I was too tired to summarize and send something to the mailing list. >=20 > FWIW, I revived the system by deleting all newer packages rm = /var/cache/pkg/*snap20250808* and just untaring the stuff in = /var/cache/pkg to / >=20 > cd / ; for i in `/rescue/ls -1 /var/cache/pkg/FreeBSD-* ` ; do = /rescue/tar xvzf $i ; done >=20 > After that, I resorted to building from source and installing to get = the system into a half way consistent state with a chance of surviving a = reboot. >=20 > When starting my upgrade I saw that it wanted to remove a lot of non = pkgbase packages (how are we doing to differentiate pkgbase packages and = "ports" packages in the future?). I thought this might be related to the = krb5 thing, so I created an up to date poudriere jail via pkgbase method = and rebuilt all my pkgs, but even then I saw the same thing as Den, that = pkg wanted to remove a lot of ports pkgs, as this system is not = important I thought I can resolve that after the pkgbase upgrade and = started the upgrade. >=20 > I didn't save scroll back. In my case I saw at the top the first ~100 = pkg transactions were uninstalling pkgbase pkgs, then it upgraded some, = then pkg exited with a segfault. >=20 > Leaving me with ELF interpreter /libexec/ld-elf.so.1 not found, error = 2 >=20 > One thing I checked was /libexec/ was completely empty. >=20 > Florian Florian, I'm sorry you hit this issue as well, but I feel a bit less crazy now. = At least, about this. I'm also glad I was able to capture something you = weren't. Long live "gnu screen" being my primary window manager. I myself had a standby VM from before we converted to pkgbase, so it's a = little old, and we might need to re-create a poudriere jail or two, but = I'm currently building world as well (pkgbase is in time-out, mister!). = Nothing is lost here, but if any devs would like me to run more = commands, or catch more forensics, please let me know. I suspect this = might need to wait for bapt to come back, but I'm not sure. I'm not trying to get into the recent (ahem) lively discussion thread -- = but I am interested in helping solve a problem in any way. Anyone, free = to email me directly, or Paeps has my mobile number and can ping me out = of band. Since I have that other VM, I'm going to leave this VM as-is = other than doing a few ls'es to figure out which jails/ports trees I = need to re-create. Sadly, I don't have a snapshot of just before the = failure to try to reproduce. -Dan= From nobody Sat Aug 9 09:54:18 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzbpT69jsz63tqd for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 09:54:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Received: from www121.sakura.ne.jp (www121.sakura.ne.jp [153.125.133.21]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzbpT0TWcz3HV4; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 09:54:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from kalamity.joker.local (124-18-43-114.area1c.commufa.jp [124.18.43.114]) (authenticated bits=0) by www121.sakura.ne.jp (8.18.1/8.17.1/[SAKURA-WEB]/20201212) with ESMTPA id 5799sIge020174; Sat, 9 Aug 2025 18:54:20 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=dec.sakura.ne.jp; s=s2405; t=1754733260; bh=Ct5jZKKz5/g8SP5oJ0jPR93ti/2+BmQYsUnuEy0CpJI=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=tuqa2+BPspeMV8Y782m3CFYafB3y6iRdYHLMfK+wWbKy1atmdaMeNtt7hprkACdjs 8PWLLwjZZjci5NQt9F2Q8fiSB2kwymyUhIsiFD9+uQrhKVPomGkkvEoGEucDfT16iI N5JZFjVSWpoC642v4aIKJthxpUitxfctGrTfC4dY= Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 18:54:18 +0900 From: Tomoaki AOKI To: mmel@FreeBSD.org Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Message-Id: <20250809185418.7d272536dd5862d0bdfd39c2@dec.sakura.ne.jp> In-Reply-To: <96820ff6-bdb0-4d25-ad78-502e30b7e479@FreeBSD.org> References: <20250809062925.GN26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> <929543B2-633E-44B5-B6F6-F292CCEADAB3@freebsd.org> <20250809065247.GO26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> <96820ff6-bdb0-4d25-ad78-502e30b7e479@FreeBSD.org> Organization: Junchoon corps X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.33; amd64-portbld-freebsd14.3) List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzbpT0TWcz3HV4 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7684, ipnet:153.125.128.0/18, country:JP] On Sat, 9 Aug 2025 09:08:53 +0200 Michal Meloun wrote: > On 8/9/2025 8:52 AM, David G Lawrence wrote: > >> On 9 Aug 2025, at 07:29, David Greenman-Lawrence wrote: > >>> > >>> FWIW, I do have an opinion on this: I think that "pkg delete -af" is > >>> a useful thing that should not destroy your base system. We should find > >>> a way to make that work as it always has > >> > >> Today, it will destroy any kernel modules installed from packages, including those necessary for the display to work. It will destroy the ability for WiFi to work if you???re using wifibox. There are a lot of other things in ports that are essential to the system for some systems. > > > > We can fix that, too. ...but destroying kernel modules doesn't mean your > > system doesn't work - it just means X11 won't work when you reboot - but then > > it wouldn't anyway because you deleted X11. But, here's the thing: X11 didn't > > work when you first installed the base system, either. And perhaps your > > Wifi didn't work out of the box, either. So you have some work to do to > > get back basic functionality - but you knew that when you did the > > "pkg delete -af" in the first place. > > > > -DG > > I cannot but agree wholeheartedly.. The actual situation with > pkg delete and pkgbase is (for me) simply absurd. > > kmod in the ports is a different problem – it shows the inability of > FBSD developers to implement these things on their own, so this > solution has some problems. And don't kill me, I fully understand that > it's not possible , but that doesn't change the previous fact. > > Michal Sometimes yes, but sometimes no. On early but widely testable developement phase for drivers, especially SD card drivers, network (including but not limited with WiFi) drivers and disk controllers, base is not a good place even for FreeBSD-native drivers. This is because turnaround time for implememt (fix) / test / commit on base is usually take much longer days (or even months!) than in ports. So recently, AFAIK, some drivers are first developed as kmod ports, and once stabilized, merged into main branch of src. What comes in my mind is rtsx driver for Realtek SD card reader driver. -- Tomoaki AOKI From nobody Sat Aug 9 10:11:45 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzcBd2HwCz63wHS for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 10:11:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dg@dglawrence.com) Received: from dglawrence.com (dglawrence.com [50.76.111.10]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mailx.dglawrence.com", Issuer "mailx.dglawrence.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzcBc5zfyz3KjB; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 10:11:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dg@dglawrence.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from mailx.dglawrence.com ([10.19.1.8]) by dglawrence.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 579ABkbw044842 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 9 Aug 2025 03:11:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dg@dglawrence.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=dglawrence.com; s=ab7ba439; t=1754734306; bh=ImvvBFSahJ3hQobU4cY2mz7NtttlMDp8QXfsIrlimrQ=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To; b=Tz4dGSLnKgur1CFFPdY78ABZzuRal0GL/nLluov6tUZeQrCsdrUM0JVl3Tvy9P4wX 8G0R4MYZpip2kmDgrRY7xxEHVlwPyHBVGTr8vb8GQgcDXvI8ckqbAkebVDhD86sYRw +ZrohgYr49MocM2kQAk+LpKEb7qyfTObXvvgI1tI= Received: (from dg@localhost) by mailx.dglawrence.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 579ABjwX044841; Sat, 9 Aug 2025 03:11:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dg@dglawrence.com) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 03:11:45 -0700 From: David G Lawrence To: Tomoaki AOKI Cc: mmel@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Message-ID: <20250809101145.GS26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> References: <20250809062925.GN26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> <929543B2-633E-44B5-B6F6-F292CCEADAB3@freebsd.org> <20250809065247.GO26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> <96820ff6-bdb0-4d25-ad78-502e30b7e479@FreeBSD.org> <20250809185418.7d272536dd5862d0bdfd39c2@dec.sakura.ne.jp> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20250809185418.7d272536dd5862d0bdfd39c2@dec.sakura.ne.jp> X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.2 (dglawrence.com [10.19.1.8]); Sat, 09 Aug 2025 03:11:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzcBc5zfyz3KjB X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7922, ipnet:50.76.0.0/14, country:US] > On Sat, 9 Aug 2025 09:08:53 +0200 > Michal Meloun wrote: > > > On 8/9/2025 8:52 AM, David G Lawrence wrote: > > >> On 9 Aug 2025, at 07:29, David Greenman-Lawrence wrote: > > >>> > > >>> FWIW, I do have an opinion on this: I think that "pkg delete -af" is > > >>> a useful thing that should not destroy your base system. We should find > > >>> a way to make that work as it always has > > >> > > >> Today, it will destroy any kernel modules installed from packages, including those necessary for the display to work. It will destroy the ability for WiFi to work if you???re using wifibox. There are a lot of other things in ports that are essential to the system for some systems. > > > > > > We can fix that, too. ...but destroying kernel modules doesn't mean your > > > system doesn't work - it just means X11 won't work when you reboot - but then > > > it wouldn't anyway because you deleted X11. But, here's the thing: X11 didn't > > > work when you first installed the base system, either. And perhaps your > > > Wifi didn't work out of the box, either. So you have some work to do to > > > get back basic functionality - but you knew that when you did the > > > "pkg delete -af" in the first place. > > > > > > -DG > > > > I cannot but agree wholeheartedly.. The actual situation with > > pkg delete and pkgbase is (for me) simply absurd. > > > > kmod in the ports is a different problem ??? it shows the inability of > > FBSD developers to implement these things on their own, so this > > solution has some problems. And don't kill me, I fully understand that > > it's not possible , but that doesn't change the previous fact. > > > > Michal > > Sometimes yes, but sometimes no. > > On early but widely testable developement phase for drivers, especially > SD card drivers, network (including but not limited with WiFi) drivers > and disk controllers, base is not a good place even for FreeBSD-native > drivers. > > This is because turnaround time for implememt (fix) / test / commit > on base is usually take much longer days (or even months!) than in > ports. So recently, AFAIK, some drivers are first developed as > kmod ports, and once stabilized, merged into main branch of src. > > What comes in my mind is rtsx driver for Realtek SD card reader driver. Tomoaki, I see what you're saying and I agree completely. But, I think this is pointing squarely at problem in the development paradigm for src committers. It should not take weeks or months to fix/test/commit/repeat in src. It didn't used to be that way, so if it is now, then something has broken in the paradigm, and _that_ needs to be fixed. -DG * Dr. David G. Lawrence * * DG Labs Pave the road of life with opportunities. From nobody Sat Aug 9 10:59:59 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzdG81NnVz641v0; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 11:00:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ivy@freebsd.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [96.47.72.132]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "freefall.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzdG80DJqz3RQS; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 11:00:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ivy@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754737200; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=Kghtor0w+DOyjIs3zcFRUNlyyqseVrYs+XeiULcVnnA=; b=m0XFlU8Oj606AOZsc7KEvNGaO9qKRiY9alDECwpE9q30Kk+orpk2d0HQgNppB/nouiQ1Mq dT5wKtJFpkKy6og1i4OLgNm03+Qk4qhYYuuBiooaxLRliWT/nii53xaHQSwXViCWrmKO8v hgTRC0+ARd5jRTCaiX2TfpQXLE4mA8RZ3v8KEPD1LEm3wCkY+Oytc3C46rslDJXmDWsJz9 36FSJ9PZBElTWsagVPcUKIO0j+wHT62vyGiqzCgEJMyZsAw6Zv/HmzwLWl+crc55Hm5Usa /cFGvGV6A2sJSbZQhoM0ACuefYon7jNcS71S8iYQYpw8mRW3FlKDi6hcOsCCjQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754737200; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=Kghtor0w+DOyjIs3zcFRUNlyyqseVrYs+XeiULcVnnA=; b=HV6SQkVmFSJpDHKpSRl32rxAJKJNCXrH0VEKFLm7ezilq7F0eAU3q/GDX1DzDIe93ACxQW AeRekFicwtMAkyYgg+CgwfbQ+WrXyd+8IlNeLTEOJcILYy5WeSoXiqmNYsjwzrUL4bn5Ev FgE0GIdhhvxTzRKjvuziImzHogP2guxjln01yRUuPV/SxN8NVgkvM3ve1k/xQ5SnyTmb2o R7NT5yzU7q3YuWkLaPoMMTkstdeTrESpwIbZ8s8jUJFGW09mcFnCXZwiFZLD9c37fc7QM5 /vbt1j8F9HUjmKQn0QQB3ZKPWAtV72KIBZ9l8PBLo1mKryyHEKx1G1sEwD1kYw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1754737200; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=kWNoqGTupBsNBePKyLScZzug+FJ14NNTEFl5tGiCTXtbPsn6AoS2wN28ecftaK0tEP+Zwg pp4bVM1Sy8V0bIVvVhn+/s1bTMDyjnKm1zRSurCkkb95MriXNPtEmtE2RhFbRY/fvKiH75 kiZR+rPQUZXUIeyK7yIQwxWheeq46Cm6X7pn3/cHzaBTC5blAVWY0cPCmMBEXJWfyek6EJ h8n/Ks8uHIaNNxxLc/s8fBIOVWXXN4KVUtVnIomOPgrYixQmVmmnpTfv6ckBbv1cchRCd7 daa1rcLuW6yVZTkCsLNl+fFam/KyOs+bh4u7hq1qRvuQCGDMHW8UB8GRAa2UEw== Received: by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 1532) id E3A821D8D8; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 10:59:59 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 11:59:59 +0100 From: Lexi Winter To: Florian Smeets Cc: Dan Mahoney , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: HEADS-UP: pkgbase pkg upgrade breaks systems Re: after updating to latest, pkg base segfaults and leaves me unbootable Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: Florian Smeets , Dan Mahoney , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <582d802f-da93-415c-9dee-1f1f1beb1830@smeets.xyz> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Cfpuh/wODnc2lC5y" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <582d802f-da93-415c-9dee-1f1f1beb1830@smeets.xyz> --Cfpuh/wODnc2lC5y Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Florian Smeets: > Yes, I had the same issue yesterday evening. When the system was back, I was > too tired to summarize and send something to the mailing list. as a workaround, i suggest anyone upgrading pkgbase split the upgrade into two steps: pkg upgrade -r base # upgrade base pkg upgrade -r FreeBSD # upgrade ports replace 'base' with whatever your pkgbase repository is called. as this problem appears to be triggered by something in ports, this should ensure you don't end up with a broken base system if you run into this. --Cfpuh/wODnc2lC5y Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEABYKAB0WIQSyjTg96lp3RifySyn1nT63mIK/YAUCaJcqLwAKCRD1nT63mIK/ YJ6VAQDgJxo3INreAC2YkJR+wNPt4hTJ63f67e0uyEujP0swHgEAlxahVC5pT9B3 iwm4SX3Mz7O2isHtFTp+69K9J+DMAAE= =2SHe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Cfpuh/wODnc2lC5y-- From nobody Sat Aug 9 11:16:38 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzddg4Dklz643c3 for ; 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boundary="000000000000d43b33063becd358" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzddg0PJ5z3VT6 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] --000000000000d43b33063becd358 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 4:13=E2=80=AFAM David G Lawrence w= rote: > > On Sat, 9 Aug 2025 09:08:53 +0200 > > Michal Meloun wrote: > > > > > On 8/9/2025 8:52 AM, David G Lawrence wrote: > > > >> On 9 Aug 2025, at 07:29, David Greenman-Lawrence > wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> FWIW, I do have an opinion on this: I think that "pkg delete -af" > is > > > >>> a useful thing that should not destroy your base system. We shoul= d > find > > > >>> a way to make that work as it always has > > > >> > > > >> Today, it will destroy any kernel modules installed from packages, > including those necessary for the display to work. It will destroy the > ability for WiFi to work if you???re using wifibox. There are a lot of > other things in ports that are essential to the system for some systems. > > > > > > > > We can fix that, too. ...but destroying kernel modules doesn't > mean your > > > > system doesn't work - it just means X11 won't work when you reboot = - > but then > > > > it wouldn't anyway because you deleted X11. But, here's the thing: > X11 didn't > > > > work when you first installed the base system, either. And perhaps > your > > > > Wifi didn't work out of the box, either. So you have some work to d= o > to > > > > get back basic functionality - but you knew that when you did the > > > > "pkg delete -af" in the first place. > > > > > > > > -DG > > > > > > I cannot but agree wholeheartedly.. The actual situation with > > > pkg delete and pkgbase is (for me) simply absurd. > > > > > > kmod in the ports is a different problem ??? it shows the inability o= f > > > FBSD developers to implement these things on their own, so this > > > solution has some problems. And don't kill me, I fully understand > that > > > it's not possible , but that doesn't change the previous fact. > > > > > > Michal > > > > Sometimes yes, but sometimes no. > > > > On early but widely testable developement phase for drivers, especially > > SD card drivers, network (including but not limited with WiFi) drivers > > and disk controllers, base is not a good place even for FreeBSD-native > > drivers. > > > > This is because turnaround time for implememt (fix) / test / commit > > on base is usually take much longer days (or even months!) than in > > ports. So recently, AFAIK, some drivers are first developed as > > kmod ports, and once stabilized, merged into main branch of src. > > > > What comes in my mind is rtsx driver for Realtek SD card reader driver. > > Tomoaki, > > I see what you're saying and I agree completely. But, I think this is > pointing squarely at problem in the development paradigm for src > committers. > It should not take weeks or months to fix/test/commit/repeat in src. It > didn't used to be that way, so if it is now, then something has broken > in the paradigm, and _that_ needs to be fixed. > Fun fact: bectl would completely fix the pkg delete issue. But I digress: rm -rf In the wrong spot also will kill base. It's a strange hill to die on. It also ignores common use cases, like wifibox, that make a system critically dependent on ports that in simplwr times didn't happen... But some perspective on rtsx. the rtsx driver is an obscure edge case 1000 times less popular than the sdhci driver. And even that is 1000x less popular than nvme. Given limited time and lack of ability to buy the rtsx hardware easily, it's hard to justify using my time for that driver when testing patches for other drivers is easier and benefits more people. That's why I passed over some of the changes there, especially since there were big issues with that driver initially that would have taken a lot of time to articulate. That is how I have prioritized my time on the thousands of fixes i have done for people, many the same day. Using it as a posterchild for src being slow overstates the problems typical patches have gwtting in. I have been trying to solve the actual, underlying problems behind it: getting the pipeline flowing better through reduced friction for submissions (some good, but many lousy and it takes time to sort and you never know if a lot of feedback will produce a better outcome for any given problematic patch). Getting a deeper bench onboard and growing aspects of our culture are also key areas needing help. I've had a hard time getting others to help, assume ownership, follow through on promises, etc. If you want to help fix things, it's helping me fix this problem. Fixing that increases the scarse developer resources and helps make it easier to fix more issues. But 4 years in, it is a problem resistant to easy solutions. Warnet -DG > > * Dr. David G. Lawrence > * * DG Labs > Pave the road of life with opportunities. > > --000000000000d43b33063becd358 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 4:13=E2=80= =AFAM David G Lawrence <dg@dglawren= ce.com> wrote:
> On Sat, = 9 Aug 2025 09:08:53 +0200
> Michal Meloun <mmel@FreeBSD.org> wrote:
>
> > On 8/9/2025 8:52 AM, David G Lawrence wrote:
> > >> On 9 Aug 2025, at 07:29, David Greenman-Lawrence <dg@d= glawrence.com> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> FWIW, I do have an opinion on this: I think that &qu= ot;pkg delete -af" is
> > >>> a useful thing that should not destroy your base sys= tem. We should find
> > >>> a way to make that work as it always has
> > >>
> > >> Today, it will destroy any kernel modules installed from= packages, including those necessary for the display to work. It will destr= oy the ability for WiFi to work if you???re using wifibox. There are a lot = of other things in ports that are essential to the system for some systems.=
> > >
> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0We can fix that, too. ...but destroying k= ernel modules doesn't mean your
> > > system doesn't work - it just means X11 won't work w= hen you reboot - but then
> > > it wouldn't anyway because you deleted X11. But, here= 9;s the thing: X11 didn't
> > > work when you first installed the base system, either. And p= erhaps your
> > > Wifi didn't work out of the box, either. So you have som= e work to do to
> > > get back basic functionality - but you knew that when you di= d the
> > > "pkg delete -af" in the first place.
> > >
> > > -DG
> >
> > I cannot but agree wholeheartedly.. The actual situation with
> > pkg delete and pkgbase is (for me) simply absurd.
> >
> > kmod in the ports is a different problem ??? it shows the inabili= ty of
> > FBSD developers to implement these things on their own,=C2=A0 so = this
> > solution=C2=A0 has some problems.=C2=A0 And don't kill me, I = fully understand that
> > it's not possible , but that doesn't change the previous = fact.
> >
> > Michal
>
> Sometimes yes, but sometimes no.
>
> On early but widely testable developement phase for drivers, especiall= y
> SD card drivers, network (including but not limited with WiFi) drivers=
> and disk controllers, base is not a good place even for FreeBSD-native=
> drivers.
>
> This is because turnaround time for implememt (fix) / test / commit > on base is usually take much longer days (or even months!) than in
> ports. So recently, AFAIK, some drivers are first developed as
> kmod ports, and once stabilized, merged into main branch of src.
>
> What comes in my mind is rtsx driver for Realtek SD card reader driver= .

Tomoaki,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0I see what you're saying and I agree completely. But, I th= ink this is
pointing squarely at problem in the development paradigm for src committers= .
It should not take weeks or months to fix/test/commit/repeat in src. It
didn't used to be that way, so if it is now, then something has broken<= br> in the paradigm, and _that_ needs to be fixed.
=

Fun fact: bectl would complet= ely fix the pkg delete issue. But I digress: rm -rf In the wrong spot also = will kill base. It's a strange hill to die on. It also ignores common u= se cases, like wifibox, that make a system critically dependent on ports th= at in simplwr times didn't happen...

<= div dir=3D"auto">But some perspective on rtsx.=C2=A0 the rtsx driver is an = obscure edge case 1000 times less popular than the sdhci driver. And even t= hat is 1000x less popular than nvme. Given limited time and lack of ability= to buy the rtsx hardware easily, it's hard to justify using my time fo= r that driver when testing patches for other drivers is easier and benefits= more people. That's why I passed over some of the changes there, espec= ially since there were big issues with that driver initially that would hav= e taken a lot of time to articulate. That is how I have prioritized my time= on the thousands of fixes i have done for people, many the same day. Using= it as a posterchild for src being slow overstates the problems typical pat= ches have gwtting in.

I = have been trying to solve the actual, underlying problems behind it: gettin= g the pipeline flowing better through reduced friction for submissions (som= e good, but many lousy and it takes time to sort and you never know if a lo= t of feedback will produce a better outcome for any given problematic patch= ). Getting a deeper bench onboard and growing aspects of our culture are al= so key areas needing help. I've had a hard time getting others to help,= assume ownership, follow through on promises, etc. If you want to help fix= things, it's helping me fix this problem. Fixing that increases the sc= arse developer resources and helps make it easier to fix more issues. But 4= years in, it is a problem resistant to easy solutions.

Warnet

-DG

=C2=A0*=C2=A0 Dr. David G. Lawrence
* * DG Labs
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pave the road of life with opportunities.

--000000000000d43b33063becd358-- From nobody Sat Aug 9 11:24:26 2025 X-Original-To: current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzdpQ2gntz644K1 for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 11:24:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from david@catwhisker.org) Received: from mx.catwhisker.org (mx.catwhisker.org [107.204.234.170]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzdpN1rwHz3YD9 for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 11:24:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from david@catwhisker.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of david@catwhisker.org designates 107.204.234.170 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=david@catwhisker.org; dmarc=none Received: from albert.catwhisker.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by albert.catwhisker.org (8.18.1/8.18.1) with ESMTP id 579BOQgk028371 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2025 11:24:26 GMT (envelope-from david@albert.catwhisker.org) Received: (from david@localhost) by albert.catwhisker.org (8.18.1/8.18.1/Submit) id 579BOQPw028370 for current@freebsd.org; Sat, 9 Aug 2025 04:24:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from david) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 04:24:26 -0700 From: David Wolfskill To: current@freebsd.org Subject: A couple more candidates for inclusion in misc/compat14x Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: David Wolfskill , current@freebsd.org List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Q25rHfocHQgeSAeZ" Content-Disposition: inline X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.35 / 15.00]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.95)[-0.947]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:107.204.234.170]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[david]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7018, ipnet:107.192.0.0/12, country:US]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[catwhisker.org]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[current@freebsd.org]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROMTLD(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[current@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzdpN1rwHz3YD9 X-Spamd-Bar: ----- --Q25rHfocHQgeSAeZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable After the update from main-n279471-f4744b8acb93 to main-n279496-9503ed0dfdbd, I found that "sudo" (built under stable/14) whined about the lack of libcrypto.so.30 & libssl.so.30. I circumvented the issue locally by copying /lib/libcrypto.so.30 and /usr/lib/libssl.so.30 from my stable/14 slice to /usr/local/lib/compat. Peace, david --=20 David H. Wolfskill david@catwhisker.org Of course firing the statistician will force the statistics to conform! See https://www.catwhisker.org/~david/publickey.gpg for my public key. --Q25rHfocHQgeSAeZ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iNUEARYKAH0WIQSTLzOSbomIK53fjFliipiWhXYx5QUCaJcv6l8UgAAAAAAuAChp c3N1ZXItZnByQG5vdGF0aW9ucy5vcGVucGdwLmZpZnRoaG9yc2VtYW4ubmV0OTMy RjMzOTI2RTg5ODgyQjlEREY4QzU5NjI4QTk4OTY4NTc2MzFFNQAKCRBiipiWhXYx 5UNYAP9zXcFYT86E76By0xvrif629or8q585H17P3/eJbvKPGwD+IfzUpxb+ffCl 3KyfTUUKSSP8tNo9qiqXo+/pMCD7dAE= =SqiU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Q25rHfocHQgeSAeZ-- From nobody Sat Aug 9 11:42:44 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzfCf0NCmz6468w for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 11:42:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dg@dglawrence.com) Received: from dglawrence.com (dglawrence.com [50.76.111.10]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mailx.dglawrence.com", Issuer "mailx.dglawrence.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzfCd4XXvz3bwQ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 11:42:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dg@dglawrence.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from mailx.dglawrence.com ([10.19.1.8]) by dglawrence.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 579Bgj2H045792 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 9 Aug 2025 04:42:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dg@dglawrence.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=dglawrence.com; s=ab7ba439; t=1754739766; bh=6fMAwzl9lJoM+fUslCY05j+tarYJxok819nFFxSG4y8=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To; b=RZquW94jymwnP+IuXkk0Gl28CkOodxh4cJi9h3F3h4bQI5r3WVDf70NuJKcBS1+mF 5NLzu8vmJ1sG7OzAMdfqMOqWdIB7noVmL3PR0F9e/MG4NnD3SHdntxoVJnq5oFlC8w XulPmV2aJD3U8p+GR3SNWZQVfUhiosqn7I4jWZ80= Received: (from dg@localhost) by mailx.dglawrence.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 579BgiCV045791; Sat, 9 Aug 2025 04:42:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dg@dglawrence.com) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 04:42:44 -0700 From: David G Lawrence To: Warner Losh Cc: Tomoaki AOKI , Michal Meloun , FreeBSD Current Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Message-ID: <20250809114244.GU26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> References: <20250809062925.GN26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> <929543B2-633E-44B5-B6F6-F292CCEADAB3@freebsd.org> <20250809065247.GO26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> <96820ff6-bdb0-4d25-ad78-502e30b7e479@FreeBSD.org> <20250809185418.7d272536dd5862d0bdfd39c2@dec.sakura.ne.jp> <20250809101145.GS26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.2 (dglawrence.com [10.19.1.8]); Sat, 09 Aug 2025 04:42:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzfCd4XXvz3bwQ X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7922, ipnet:50.76.0.0/14, country:US] > > > > kmod in the ports is a different problem ??? it shows the inability of > > > > FBSD developers to implement these things on their own, so this > > > > solution has some problems. And don't kill me, I fully understand > > that > > > > it's not possible , but that doesn't change the previous fact. > > > > > > > > Michal > > > > > > Sometimes yes, but sometimes no. > > > > > > On early but widely testable developement phase for drivers, especially > > > SD card drivers, network (including but not limited with WiFi) drivers > > > and disk controllers, base is not a good place even for FreeBSD-native > > > drivers. > > > > > > This is because turnaround time for implememt (fix) / test / commit > > > on base is usually take much longer days (or even months!) than in > > > ports. So recently, AFAIK, some drivers are first developed as > > > kmod ports, and once stabilized, merged into main branch of src. > > > > > > What comes in my mind is rtsx driver for Realtek SD card reader driver. > > > > Tomoaki, > > > > I see what you're saying and I agree completely. But, I think this is > > pointing squarely at problem in the development paradigm for src > > committers. > > It should not take weeks or months to fix/test/commit/repeat in src. It > > didn't used to be that way, so if it is now, then something has broken > > in the paradigm, and _that_ needs to be fixed. > > > > Fun fact: bectl would completely fix the pkg delete issue. But I digress: > rm -rf In the wrong spot also will kill base. It's a strange hill to die > on. It also ignores common use cases, like wifibox, that make a system > critically dependent on ports that in simplwr times didn't happen... > > But some perspective on rtsx. the rtsx driver is an obscure edge case 1000 > times less popular than the sdhci driver. And even that is 1000x less > popular than nvme. Given limited time and lack of ability to buy the rtsx > hardware easily, it's hard to justify using my time for that driver when > testing patches for other drivers is easier and benefits more people. > That's why I passed over some of the changes there, especially since there > were big issues with that driver initially that would have taken a lot of > time to articulate. That is how I have prioritized my time on the thousands > of fixes i have done for people, many the same day. Using it as a > posterchild for src being slow overstates the problems typical patches have > gwtting in. > > I have been trying to solve the actual, underlying problems behind it: > getting the pipeline flowing better through reduced friction for > submissions (some good, but many lousy and it takes time to sort and you > never know if a lot of feedback will produce a better outcome for any given > problematic patch). Getting a deeper bench onboard and growing aspects of > our culture are also key areas needing help. I've had a hard time getting > others to help, assume ownership, follow through on promises, etc. If you > want to help fix things, it's helping me fix this problem. Fixing that > increases the scarse developer resources and helps make it easier to fix > more issues. But 4 years in, it is a problem resistant to easy solutions. > > Warner ...and for the record, I didn't have any idea about where the problem is/was, but now I see it clearly, and I did not intend to critizise anyone. I, as well as anyone I think, understand that FreeBSD is a volunteer project and any time that a developer puts into it is a _gift_, and we must never lose sight of that. But now I'm going to say something controversial: I was disappointed by the reaction about AI, and how it could help the project, in the developers list. While I fully appreciate the concerns about "stealing" other people's work (indirectly through the training of the vast corpus of the Internet) - i.e., the potential to violate copyright, what was said in that thread - to dismiss what AI could do for the project, for the development cycle - was exceptionally, tragically, myopic. Most people in the world (and here I mean 5 Sigma +) have no idea what's about to hit them. I've been deep in AI research recently and I can tell you, first hand, well...we're in for interesting times ahead. We can either embrace it or be tossed into the scrap heap of history. -DG * Dr. David G. Lawrence * * DG Labs Pave the road of life with opportunities. From nobody Sat Aug 9 12:10:17 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzfqG3zKPz648bP for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 12:10:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzfqG3BQVz3frT; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 12:10:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754741418; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=b+j1gDqGMHbCZpAGGrwcbxGsAZ3l5awc8luJBQzTFQk=; b=ZrpLn7LDzo1hNl5KzH0h7u9WyyIafkiVWgqXvMMDvTNP7bniLSeLEfEcT4rTLCWyLO8Itf mZmB1LJ1g4bUw84LeN7YusoqMtO8ybG/L+PdOWxuUaeANUC1FaoUmZdD1MxdsPLivK4/Y5 nex/Is3S7PnSyqcpAl0qBl5AGEwFg7+TmMfLgReNOgfcQoqrHaNfauncZe2mjLwrPXTMHB VkDQolSuR4t9cerx/K4+KIVePQ3FWJcC4zkzCLqXnfVC6icuVTLoonf0zKaBr6zkN5BB5f YDf6ZhZpU6OSAHCBdWuopKkIj2DSeRgJFZm3MsiNfghMwDfZ0L94/xgNdt0yVw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754741418; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=b+j1gDqGMHbCZpAGGrwcbxGsAZ3l5awc8luJBQzTFQk=; b=dB55y/uDShMStREa4uYS8y9VIJ7ao9qktjBemAAA4Zg5Qd+xktm3Dzx2lXgu7eceA7xvEx JzuBLZyZRKcVzHOWDLopnUEzhFWYCkBXJX/0MCeZ/+9wH4CP9XlOSgGEjciORL6+H6UmhR TqeHE+XMs+TH5/ciOko52Y6ptyPrSBpHsGvmxsBIMJ2c2AVwJXRlShn8JWa5ApnN4glvw3 H8btpJcPtEuj2x9RbVY+15N3Zt50Ao7erq7amQaI9SycCYVxsx0IJceC3Es8BH7S0wWge1 JBWy6x2jUoJaB4HPhPZQNFPWImpzPyrokauQ2OH8H85tObZ05euHjMYj0gek1g== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1754741418; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=TFQWc5Nxy4InJTbLM2G7wNiDOKZkVgrmDe10X+OtUBe90nuPvJdsx/4n2zLmE35Qfximbl q4nqBfWZ71TY6SZynrYLTWDDTuuebLszaLcpFyQpUFhPpeFgB1vAS62IB+QrorumhebL1w k+ySDOJ29LGyYboxbx2wpEnpFH/zUzA0xjoTeoxsabU8vkanLSd08ksndsrjLa5EkRUuZ2 dcUFZ6Hfao7XkkOUq+GDfbhiUcJP/f6SMVFNdDXvHVOoXDa7tcW6uSCvihrDDQjvOpAf/H fOUq1ZU4jzYrEN5ktErFXD68CAEq/PcdYRaBG/DGuVdD6SSmsG2szaECjaMQpA== Received: from ltc.des.dev (unknown [IPv6:2a01:e0a:c54:bed0:922e:16ff:fef1:acef]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: des) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4bzfqG1vmvz138V; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 12:10:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) Received: by ltc.des.dev (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 0750611CBA; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 14:10:17 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: David Greenman-Lawrence Cc: Sulev-Madis Silber , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature In-Reply-To: <20250809062925.GN26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> (David Greenman-Lawrence's message of "Fri, 8 Aug 2025 23:29:25 -0700") References: <20250808.091053.1322595805169591390.sthaug@nethelp.no> <86h5yi43kp.fsf@ltc.des.dev> <2F323B4C-DA2E-47FF-A8E9-FB515B5D446D@ketas.si.pri.ee> <20250809062925.GN26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2025 14:10:17 +0200 Message-ID: <86ectk1ys6.fsf@ltc.des.dev> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David Greenman-Lawrence writes: > FWIW, I do have an opinion on this: I think that "pkg delete -af" is a > useful thing that should not destroy your base system. If you want to delete all packages that aren't vital to the system's functioning, just run `pkg delete -a`. That will leave you with whatever packages were locked or marked vital (normally FreeBSD-clibs and FreeBSD-runtime, which contain the most important libraries and binaries) plus pkg itself (because pkg is hardcoded to never delete itself unless forced to). 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t=1754743115; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:autocrypt:autocrypt; bh=/vVBOo543vrbEvD0pDcPqiq5ywWdjL0T7TScGwpE5vY=; b=urqkd0MjWqs2TrdMU66gh4Sjt/myqVpwamoBTljFAExArO3jKvBon08sgbJgkhzee5fe6i 9+qhqLPPuHd56NCA== Message-ID: <614fc6f3-0bbd-47a0-8f7b-9ed907230aa3@smeets.xyz> Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 14:38:34 +0200 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: HEADS-UP: pkgbase pkg upgrade breaks systems Re: after updating to latest, pkg base segfaults and leaves me unbootable Content-Language: en-US To: Dan Mahoney , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <582d802f-da93-415c-9dee-1f1f1beb1830@smeets.xyz> From: Florian Smeets Autocrypt: addr=flo@smeets.xyz; keydata= xsFNBFpyBwsBEADLq0c46orEtbMn4SptX+VJxR1wB4YwaErZme1bqF4nZHIhlRNET22HsHdQ doagaB4uACq0Rj5kHcu614ZnnNkLPyCxWQATx+cbdiFO4/hfT8tAvKnBtiy3awKJ5uGCNO2E zJwXW6KwdDA8XPRySqN8m1yPl+dW0Cls+/vO/QL/6+YLMupmEpSvFxRzAZTQuKyX4+xl+dYI d24JiPd1yfCuDNOY3+OZ3QBMT00u/699N8lUWRtiTwaQMwAOww8r/26YM6/SgcgFuLH2E/CV plY0sDvfoISlAj8agxdomNXfPjCMQ6w5yGZmA+huFpPCVBTi3on/SWgbQO7dLVpN4BNPuScP osCb/dsOg0S74zCClsIU3gdUGh9rwJY00/Ebid6V0R3c1Czwbg8LQedzlGDuXYXmzp6W2ujg r1cqbUD6lUWikUv2IMdCbb8MxYhHLi3GYUs5Xpi+W7vM6T45KbuMr7O/1SjtcGOlNeDvGNgj cDk20fOgPPZ+M6i9vX5Q2oI9HoYaeTiYNwILkBLVP/L40kTo5EkiQOt4OW6BMbylqXPOaQMW uGVbmhCJQpbx8Vo80s2yiBBVWkLkWQIcIm3KZlLldJqKEFpQBWLBE1eFFqboYgAWzFn73CaV 5tihobijMmmOV3a8cI1fI4kREyl3g+8bW+O0u3m3tuzVOpDpjwARAQABzR9GbG9yaWFuIFNt ZWV0cyA8ZmxvQHNtZWV0cy54eXo+wsGXBBMBCgBBAhsDBQsJCAcDBRUKCQgLBRYDAgEAAh4B AheAAhkBFiEE7LNouHkIv7aRTXJp71uk3NWp88AFAmWarWAFCQ7rjOUACgkQ71uk3NWp88AY 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RECEIVED_HELO_LOCALHOST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; HAS_ATTACHMENT(0.00)[]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[flo]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org,freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[smeets.xyz:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:24940, ipnet:88.99.0.0/16, country:DE]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:+,3:+,4:~,5:~]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzgS32Y2dz3pk8 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------kZN56ys05SxUysTrx3sCRT9X Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------ldaNcsq5fBmTwis1O7U4SzE2"; protected-headers="v1" From: Florian Smeets To: Dan Mahoney , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Message-ID: <614fc6f3-0bbd-47a0-8f7b-9ed907230aa3@smeets.xyz> Subject: Re: HEADS-UP: pkgbase pkg upgrade breaks systems Re: after updating to latest, pkg base segfaults and leaves me 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breaks systems Re: after updating to latest, pkg base segfaults and leaves me unbootable Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: Florian Smeets , Dan Mahoney , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <582d802f-da93-415c-9dee-1f1f1beb1830@smeets.xyz> <614fc6f3-0bbd-47a0-8f7b-9ed907230aa3@smeets.xyz> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ipdcTfQGGD56YTBP" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <614fc6f3-0bbd-47a0-8f7b-9ed907230aa3@smeets.xyz> --ipdcTfQGGD56YTBP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Florian Smeets: > I uploaded the important part of /var/log/messages here > https://people.freebsd.org/~flo/pkg-upgrade-20250808.txt> Aug 8 23:26:03 rp64 kernel: pid 18424 (pkg), jid 0, uid 0: exited on signal 11 (core dumped) are you able to get a backtrace from this core? --ipdcTfQGGD56YTBP Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEABYKAB0WIQSyjTg96lp3RifySyn1nT63mIK/YAUCaJdC6gAKCRD1nT63mIK/ YOkGAQD68zo8HsIw7YRn4aVewcDRk/rYNj9Y12SG4xWHmLpjegD+P/wz1YBDXUSd sXuAvriNiMTLOgciMUzYx/eHcwDBBwE= =aNtK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ipdcTfQGGD56YTBP-- From nobody Sat Aug 9 13:10:27 2025 X-Original-To: current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzh8h5Kdgz64G5P for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 13:10:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature 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User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2025 15:10:27 +0200 Message-ID: <86tt2gzlmk.fsf@ltc.des.dev> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David Wolfskill writes: > After the update from main-n279471-f4744b8acb93 to > main-n279496-9503ed0dfdbd, I found that "sudo" (built under stable/14) > whined about the lack of libcrypto.so.30 & libssl.so.30. Gleb, could you please take care of this? 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[209.85.128.169]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 3f1490d57ef6-e9065b834casm181306276.41.2025.08.09.06.11.57 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 09 Aug 2025 06:11:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw1-f169.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-71bfdf75cccso10663467b3.1; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 06:11:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCVIacFpBGhPHyb4RwEk3GOTXsDF9AawMoxUPo17qFmmenV9hkocCOmckxVmGtLehNQhYycyReLc@freebsd.org X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:968e:b0:719:3e4f:60f7 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-71bf0e3e2camr83141747b3.26.1754745117283; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 06:11:57 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <86tt2gzlmk.fsf@ltc.des.dev> In-Reply-To: <86tt2gzlmk.fsf@ltc.des.dev> From: Gleb Popov Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 16:11:31 +0300 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: X-Gm-Features: Ac12FXxIsAA5BYytbjRTa5fMLpje0XuqYq7orREVX8VKrdsNsGGR30g0fMOE2eM Message-ID: Subject: Re: A couple more candidates for inclusion in misc/compat14x To: =?UTF-8?Q?Dag=2DErling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= Cc: David Wolfskill , current@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzhBR2YCbz41mY X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US] On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 4:10=E2=80=AFPM Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav wrote: > > David Wolfskill writes: > > After the update from main-n279471-f4744b8acb93 to > > main-n279496-9503ed0dfdbd, I found that "sudo" (built under stable/14) > > whined about the lack of libcrypto.so.30 & libssl.so.30. > > Gleb, could you please take care of this? Sure, will do it later today. From nobody Sat Aug 9 13:24:20 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzhSz2Wbhz64HsQ for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 13:24:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from davidsghost2@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vs1-xe2e.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzhSy4Rs6z44Tv; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 13:24:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from davidsghost2@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-vs1-xe2e.google.com with SMTP id ada2fe7eead31-5058e95a2bdso598203137.2; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 06:24:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1754745872; x=1755350672; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=i9WKSY+82gI0VKH9F36dZzRS/tgkMlqJl5DIm6DsN1k=; b=II1SuU3iqymD7vtZ2A+pPhHP8gA+NEdKEJrr4olsbP7D4AVh+ahULM8NNIUVXslUMA nIUhW0w+UQF4Mj38dR197RTiGF431rhc8JlXieugCeW9Q0riieDe7323TKBF1rqLKn38 6oVrO/9bCytsuofjJgCSz9V+EkCw+xMHSnHKaR8faM8IUfqy/qF2f+/ZKjNcjAFQZ+AT gkyg3s3u0f9AWHIfEObROfeH2a7S5fvTi7I4zU7/Wrp0V/wc1KHXJiIeBoEhuFGhSkXS uqjdH3aSXEnROk39ru2cnokKRUIdoyA/kN6a1oB5URtl29mN9dFZe1qxLPceXAS5gZZn Erkg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1754745872; x=1755350672; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=i9WKSY+82gI0VKH9F36dZzRS/tgkMlqJl5DIm6DsN1k=; b=XQmcBgioeqW/ewu+gOnd2CtN/AwFiqZfArC62LwJpACEqs7Ne4dl8QqaHjfA2Vb2yO ZZ8/+z7hvJKZ3hi0hZc3IQR7+H0GcnXPGGbzAevuiolthTgTMMW6kgQAHwiTsTV7bY9U 8ctXrXW+/dR5V5plvmhD/hG1AMxeBBZsBvlnliBaoHQq3rrY3Ic3SLfNQLaIX9dvIaUw Dwbt1IVrJ7Th1B9D834WI2U/Fb7Lfw2bjjKN0x1QGg1NYp2jicgikV2LZIoZMpFRSf/J MGZCigAKpbd7WKcsgO24knSRhVuhbamfOprdCpDkjOQ1gwYO2xnbyUFjMM4YTzPtYH0W L4KQ== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCVhy7D7k5MfysdejBQcQMGBt6Wqtlsu+qnZ8lTQSJnEJToyIN5STF6Y/88ufgrc2rP/H+iGEzTFJ5TvZDJJXV8=@freebsd.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwQKMA4V2LcrR8K0+SwTGiYagGdAdMYOcDWiGayVGXOAnsY11py 2UCUYErQPXOdRt8DSFeq55v1qJr+6vV2dC/w3QnjX/kUMz6vA+SqM73pGqjeWNJfuL+WXziAZbU LawwKzOpE4RD14KXaMzFfWjjb+pQNyA3biw== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncsVHAfj45cDQYM030Rf9zfx5yg8q3QW0DhbmUbngMQGX/jqXuHeMYBfKWYcLYl LquIufzh3ZLnCr6hZZzKCmBHm37GYCkTiAdNB0oToW1bGPDHCOrcpw1z5oDSDZgQWALHtf/+0VG FoEY9uIaCNt3K00nuPjWmaxgn62FVfPakncxvXXFq9pw7lQBeQO8b89fqVgGrp/mMBIzP7WnRqV GTmH1/xqgdknf+uo4sNThMD3e1RiUgpKk3NcuheEA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGxpmbzI66RjqCcvz2HhAauHgfNTULfBBbTEjs2+FiSbl0FpdO0STimLE5NehvocC/93/ZIIFec3QEjOr06pAI= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:f11:b0:4e5:acea:2dec with SMTP id ada2fe7eead31-5060ce8f8fdmr2789813137.7.1754745872122; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 06:24:32 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20250808.091053.1322595805169591390.sthaug@nethelp.no> <86h5yi43kp.fsf@ltc.des.dev> <2F323B4C-DA2E-47FF-A8E9-FB515B5D446D@ketas.si.pri.ee> <20250809062925.GN26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> <86ectk1ys6.fsf@ltc.des.dev> In-Reply-To: <86ectk1ys6.fsf@ltc.des.dev> From: David Scranton Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 09:24:20 -0400 X-Gm-Features: Ac12FXwFM1HTacZLTZaatzPzdzxb94R3Q8AYsBn3Cis7lDOapxuavD3klSPcGMQ Message-ID: Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature To: =?UTF-8?Q?Dag=2DErling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= Cc: David Greenman-Lawrence , Sulev-Madis Silber , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000061055f063bee9c54" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzhSy4Rs6z44Tv X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] --00000000000061055f063bee9c54 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just a brief note from a new, nontechnical user. I actually appreciate the energetic debates because they are educating me about fbsd and its philosophy - not to mention warning me about treacherous shoals. David Scranton On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 8:10=E2=80=AFAM Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav wrote: > David Greenman-Lawrence writes: > > FWIW, I do have an opinion on this: I think that "pkg delete -af" is a > > useful thing that should not destroy your base system. > > If you want to delete all packages that aren't vital to the system's > functioning, just run `pkg delete -a`. That will leave you with > whatever packages were locked or marked vital (normally FreeBSD-clibs > and FreeBSD-runtime, which contain the most important libraries and > binaries) plus pkg itself (because pkg is hardcoded to never delete > itself unless forced to). > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@FreeBSD.org > > --00000000000061055f063bee9c54 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just a brief note from a new, nontechnical user.=C2=A0 I = actually appreciate the energetic debates because they are educating me abo= ut fbsd and its philosophy - not to mention warning me about treacherous sh= oals.

David Scranton

On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 8:10=E2=80=AFAM Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8r= grav <des@freebsd.org> wrote:<= br>
David Greenman-Lawrence <dg@dglaw= rence.com> writes:
> FWIW, I do have an opinion on this: I think that "pkg delete -af&= quot; is a
> useful thing that should not destroy your base system.

If you want to delete all packages that aren't vital to the system'= s
functioning, just run `pkg delete -a`.=C2=A0 That will leave you with
whatever packages were locked or marked vital (normally FreeBSD-clibs
and FreeBSD-runtime, which contain the most important libraries and
binaries) plus pkg itself (because pkg is hardcoded to never delete
itself unless forced to).

DES
--
Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@FreeBSD.org

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([2600:1700:18f0:6812:129a:8666:ef01:3293]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 00721157ae682-71b5a59d287sm58155547b3.49.2025.08.09.06.40.06 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 09 Aug 2025 06:40:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 09:40:05 -0400 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Thunderbird Daily Content-Language: en-US To: FreeBSD Current From: Ian FREISLICH Subject: delete-old-libs removes libgssapi.so.10 but leaves the dead symlink Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.99 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20230601]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[current@freebsd.org]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[current@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::1133:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzhpw6085z49PW X-Spamd-Bar: --- Hi make delete-old-libs leaves a dead symlink libgssapi.so -> libgssapi.so.10. Ian From nobody Sat Aug 9 13:48:36 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzj180cMnz64KvY for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 13:49:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Received: from www121.sakura.ne.jp (www121.sakura.ne.jp [153.125.133.21]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzj170prmz3D1Z; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 13:48:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from kalamity.joker.local (124-18-43-114.area1c.commufa.jp [124.18.43.114]) (authenticated bits=0) by www121.sakura.ne.jp (8.18.1/8.17.1/[SAKURA-WEB]/20201212) with ESMTPA id 579Dmb1J059891; Sat, 9 Aug 2025 22:48:38 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=dec.sakura.ne.jp; s=s2405; t=1754747319; bh=UaOKThQAeUiD27LikNoM60hNmkLNM1eY0qKfYuqQgr0=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=tq7iyYO4Ujm2/gXU0WpOooCFOObArSgd5luPMIAFc0o+aVYelp2Yrj1raP1H7NdHS tzjLLO593hTUgRnLYx3JovDtF0o+iTkHcq3uqo7uBaJSetKnl+8OErn5aOYeZewruV 2ASfnOxrk3z2ylIGTKjPJWPjf4T6/1P5lB9mHc0k= Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 22:48:36 +0900 From: Tomoaki AOKI To: David G Lawrence Cc: Warner Losh , Michal Meloun , FreeBSD Current Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Message-Id: <20250809224836.f7207c3be3fbc8e0fd97f856@dec.sakura.ne.jp> In-Reply-To: <20250809114244.GU26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> References: <20250809062925.GN26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> <929543B2-633E-44B5-B6F6-F292CCEADAB3@freebsd.org> <20250809065247.GO26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> <96820ff6-bdb0-4d25-ad78-502e30b7e479@FreeBSD.org> <20250809185418.7d272536dd5862d0bdfd39c2@dec.sakura.ne.jp> <20250809101145.GS26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> <20250809114244.GU26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> Organization: Junchoon corps X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.33; amd64-portbld-freebsd14.3) List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzj170prmz3D1Z X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7684, ipnet:153.125.128.0/18, country:JP] On Sat, 9 Aug 2025 04:42:44 -0700 David G Lawrence wrote: > > > > > kmod in the ports is a different problem ??? it shows the inability of > > > > > FBSD developers to implement these things on their own, so this > > > > > solution has some problems. And don't kill me, I fully understand > > > that > > > > > it's not possible , but that doesn't change the previous fact. > > > > > > > > > > Michal > > > > > > > > Sometimes yes, but sometimes no. > > > > > > > > On early but widely testable developement phase for drivers, especially > > > > SD card drivers, network (including but not limited with WiFi) drivers > > > > and disk controllers, base is not a good place even for FreeBSD-native > > > > drivers. > > > > > > > > This is because turnaround time for implememt (fix) / test / commit > > > > on base is usually take much longer days (or even months!) than in > > > > ports. So recently, AFAIK, some drivers are first developed as > > > > kmod ports, and once stabilized, merged into main branch of src. > > > > > > > > What comes in my mind is rtsx driver for Realtek SD card reader driver. > > > > > > Tomoaki, > > > > > > I see what you're saying and I agree completely. But, I think this is > > > pointing squarely at problem in the development paradigm for src > > > committers. > > > It should not take weeks or months to fix/test/commit/repeat in src. It > > > didn't used to be that way, so if it is now, then something has broken > > > in the paradigm, and _that_ needs to be fixed. > > > > > > > Fun fact: bectl would completely fix the pkg delete issue. But I digress: > > rm -rf In the wrong spot also will kill base. It's a strange hill to die > > on. It also ignores common use cases, like wifibox, that make a system > > critically dependent on ports that in simplwr times didn't happen... As Vermaden replied to different thread of this topic, his issue seems to be "in jail". IIUC, he attempted to deinstall everything installed PkgPkg (in contrast with PkgBase) keeping PkgBase world in the jail intact, but result was everything including PkgBase in the jail was deinstalled and made the jail unkillable. And stating there should be kinda "safety net" for such a case. > > But some perspective on rtsx. the rtsx driver is an obscure edge case 1000 > > times less popular than the sdhci driver. And even that is 1000x less > > popular than nvme. Given limited time and lack of ability to buy the rtsx > > hardware easily, it's hard to justify using my time for that driver when > > testing patches for other drivers is easier and benefits more people. > > That's why I passed over some of the changes there, especially since there > > were big issues with that driver initially that would have taken a lot of > > time to articulate. That is how I have prioritized my time on the thousands > > of fixes i have done for people, many the same day. Using it as a > > posterchild for src being slow overstates the problems typical patches have > > gwtting in. Ah, sorry for the confusion. rtsx is just an example that developements are undergone on ports and merged into base after it was considered stable. Not an example for "delays". IMHO, delays would be because "there are no reviewers having time and experienced in the area". In areas that many committers are interested in and experienced, things goes quickly, except for MFCs. But in case it's not, for example, smbfs, there is long standing PR that is NOT yet committed like Bug 90815. https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=90815 It's already approaching to a decade and I still need the patch. > > I have been trying to solve the actual, underlying problems behind it: > > getting the pipeline flowing better through reduced friction for > > submissions (some good, but many lousy and it takes time to sort and you > > never know if a lot of feedback will produce a better outcome for any given > > problematic patch). Getting a deeper bench onboard and growing aspects of > > our culture are also key areas needing help. I've had a hard time getting > > others to help, assume ownership, follow through on promises, etc. If you > > want to help fix things, it's helping me fix this problem. Fixing that > > increases the scarse developer resources and helps make it easier to fix > > more issues. But 4 years in, it is a problem resistant to easy solutions. One thing making difficult to sort out would be "duplicates". For example, there are tons of "actually duplicated" threads in forums. IIUC, Bugzilla has functionality to notify/mark any PR as duplicate once another PR marks it as duplicate of itself (or if marking itself as a duplicate of another PR, it is shown as dublicate on another). But IIRC, only the reporter and moderators/admins can mark it. So whenever I noticed existences of duplicates of any PR I'm looking into, I comment (yes, comment!) "this would be the duplicate of Bug xxxxx", as I'm neither admin nor moderator of Bugzilla. > > Warner > > ...and for the record, I didn't have any idea about where the problem > is/was, but now I see it clearly, and I did not intend to critizise anyone. > I, as well as anyone I think, understand that FreeBSD is a volunteer > project and any time that a developer puts into it is a _gift_, and we > must never lose sight of that. Yes. Unfortunately, it's forgotton quite often. I'm now working on nvidia-driver and related ports, but I'm not at all sponsorerd, nor employee of nvidia. 100% volunteer basis. Recently I'm surprized to hear, at least on some distros, nvidia-driver is far behind FreeBSD ports. > But now I'm going to say something controversial: I was disappointed > by the reaction about AI, and how it could help the project, in the > developers list. While I fully appreciate the concerns about "stealing" > other people's work (indirectly through the training of the vast corpus of > the Internet) - i.e., the potential to violate copyright, what was said in > that thread - to dismiss what AI could do for the project, for the > development cycle - was exceptionally, tragically, myopic. Most people in > the world (and here I mean 5 Sigma +) have no idea what's about to hit > them. I've been deep in AI research recently and I can tell you, first > hand, well...we're in for interesting times ahead. We can either embrace > it or be tossed into the scrap heap of history. My opinion about AI-generated codes is that "need to be clarified in international law about copyrights and licenses first". But it is, AFAIK, still in discussion at each countries. Not at UN. This is the fatal problem. My assumption is "if the operator specifies the license to be (including possibly to be) applied to the resulting codes, AI referres only to non-violating knowledges/data/codes and generate codes" is needed to be implemented by AI guys. > -DG > > * Dr. David G. Lawrence > * * DG Labs > Pave the road of life with opportunities. -- Tomoaki AOKI From nobody Sat Aug 9 13:49:54 2025 X-Original-To: current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzj2B41Klz64L3V for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 13:49:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ivy@freebsd.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [96.47.72.132]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "freefall.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzj2B3Rcfz3F9l; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 13:49:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ivy@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754747394; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; 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mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1754747394; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=Agt9omKGSA79kM0Mp6t174OA3H7tpRK43UxDtQYzkyJHCQteCyLw1rVztGD9NKvecpnRI/ 4yuMZqgNgd6/I88VxA66EbkLo2WGv9txUnTIxeadnmp8/mUGZHVc9g98ljB0uaXc1XrdJm 4IGVMvZi0wgluhhHSbsPq+pjveGvfqRG+2t4Gn07bnOXA9jX5wqDsllDQ7/fLDSx8iAeSa NeOnQDzsVL5WEeHjxdg1FwNTDRBPpOz86tN0TEHqoK8RLSu5hQKqMfkOINWhRPk55hoz1x JpmrI+lywfpnzpLtkBZMOpaS//vRAccKiHyZqrlNMPImepm5AFCBo/tcvawkXA== Received: by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 1532) id 6DEEE1E3B9; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 13:49:54 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 14:49:54 +0100 From: Lexi Winter To: Ian FREISLICH Cc: FreeBSD Current Subject: Re: delete-old-libs removes libgssapi.so.10 but leaves the dead symlink Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: Ian FREISLICH , FreeBSD Current References: List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Rm7fts3O4GZHaz7o" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: --Rm7fts3O4GZHaz7o Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Ian FREISLICH: > make delete-old-libs leaves a dead symlink libgssapi.so -> libgssapi.so.10. there are some issues with the OptionalObsoleteFiles entries when turning WITH_MITKRB5 on and off, which is what handles removing the old libgssapi. i'm planning to overhaul these and verify they're actually correct... depending on what else comes up that might happen in a day or two. --Rm7fts3O4GZHaz7o Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEABYKAB0WIQSyjTg96lp3RifySyn1nT63mIK/YAUCaJdR/gAKCRD1nT63mIK/ YI58AP9BDcF2XoT8+NtQ1PIV2HfJBE1ka7SWcON5SckzGo/XvgEAuBwev9cw+UCN ny6ZrJ3oZM7mnTSPoxdP8ijZL522UAI= =64Ka -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Rm7fts3O4GZHaz7o-- From nobody Sat Aug 9 14:03:47 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzjLG5p3qz64MMb for ; 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h=Date:MIME-Version:From:Subject:To:Content-Type; b=VC0FDHReLh9FNDSfyyYgU7OfS1JT97bt81Y4LICQ3Q+C7zasdUMSo6y+aYQn2W+0a cut5lqFSmnXqj35rDaPBRtnxpJU6K2R6fH4ra3SrVrQID4/L/WQnHhYLaGWhKkTcoK UcoUvjdBo/9opf0j4qgFWqb2B3YLBoOx6EGeREBEFlSpJrbI5t60iccM0L16cPfunU 3KpRg4Ie0ZLAB5AmdYir2YufeZrZNmn+p9wrCFQvIts9oWadKfbYe9v9ZlPiSXgKbG 4YENDAQVm44wdRFfGMTfL7L0ehnec2TeiRw+ZcBspTmFYvBVZOCLh2/xGooZQ1PBgV f22yVuUiguZdA== Message-ID: <35666e4d-020f-451e-94a1-998295f034db@seiruote.it> Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 16:03:47 +0200 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Content-Language: it From: tetrosalame Subject: current amd64 snapshot 20250807 pkgbase installation seems broken To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4xfJFj5372BGpc6bzHBlz/X4yH90T/hZt0bWIjysb9H9SmI4N3yZASPLe1tClI/yIcX/TZG+rYcUVAvjvlSCy0kFOI2bCCnt5L2cUoL3yv8oz6rwIqCsQr OzRsJVN7nLoFkQbr1EqkFoDgvUgDgMqUnP0VUly9koJu0ZcW5tKG7knOOb9yGm2o76CwjlHHsGgGqTlqCSfmiJd+DNnmOKAg1W0= X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.80 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.999]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[seiruote.it,none]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.20)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seiruote.it:s=a1]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:62.149.156.0/24]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; ASN(0.00)[asn:31034, ipnet:62.149.128.0/19, country:IT]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[62.149.156.42:from]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[62.149.156.42:from]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seiruote.it:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzjLF6B1qz3Hdn X-Spamd-Bar: --- Hi current@, since last days churn about pros and cons of pkgbase, I downloaded 20250807 amd64 snapshot to discover what's all this thing is about :) It's been a while since I last used bsdinstall, I'm more a untar base tarball guy. BTW I chose pkgbase experimental installation, ZFS autoconf, set up network (while here, how do I configure HTTP(S)_PROXY please? I think that would be my next stopper...) and pkg didn't run. Console says (ALT-F4): ld-els.so.1: Shared object "libutil.so.9" not found, required by "pkg" 20250801 snapshot works as intended, but I'm stuck anyway as I can't find a way to tell pkg to use my local proxy. Am I doing something wrong? Thanks, f From nobody Sat Aug 9 14:08:23 2025 X-Original-To: current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzjRf3rTZz64MbM for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 14:08:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ianfreislich@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yb1-xb35.google.com (mail-yb1-xb35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b35]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzjRd67VRz3JlY for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 14:08:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ianfreislich@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=hEvwGQno; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ianfreislich@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::b35 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ianfreislich@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com Received: by mail-yb1-xb35.google.com with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-e902849978bso2366570276.1 for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 07:08:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1754748504; x=1755353304; darn=freebsd.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:subject:from:to:content-language :user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=B1oUsxS3qzNDGAuxpApwayD1/knV0F55mrP8K3uCqrM=; b=hEvwGQno0In81b6by++lqybt4r3EF8YWKfOF2G7N7JOEY/zl/hFMYdE/2luJaoaEET BWHK7FXlGUJlrMLU/mHb9BJHcs0zM/yuarj2M2NKKabjDvaAjuFC587CAJZwB7uTOQwQ CjcvlESDXY8jTBQGpFskj6iP1XigvX/10gruMG3zP8j9ROfbHrb4alFBtx4tABokhpH/ /6OvSf458pDUQ3txwh6vKyhuYJNQKOFUlUH5SBKoC3GVKBCk1P3dhT4vvVPnF0xTZzJm bEpf55AyS3nQBH7xp1dOwLeSz9I5vI7QOw7ESn4P43XR+tHTxiUeyPyb+1u6rZ8OA0oS f3kQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1754748504; x=1755353304; h=content-transfer-encoding:subject:from:to:content-language :user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id:x-gm-message-state:from:to :cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=B1oUsxS3qzNDGAuxpApwayD1/knV0F55mrP8K3uCqrM=; b=CyEqikzLmaN+eiAmKz1nig5o9ZJj+cYJEKRSpXKUP9R6zs4xm5uhfgabjjJIeK7EuW p/JwlWB+rqg+nLRTT0ESMz0eYt9XxC6aL1VCNAce62KoKOts7YmecJgSHw/x7Ov5aOiH HWSgxOrqfJhE10BHsA54N3bQ2XQM1Ts+/6p/kIW5GJIjhHePOxpNlC0M09sF9C4yQqMe K/exBkidar+WL3gInmzlM+ezLqyvxlwBFaz6lSMPurV5izcC9kEiAhHBHCz/iTN9J/E4 SEOtVprOaMvLisoP8kYylj7JT2gTicpa2gY5Z4SHjQKaaopSDtcxLDYsJ6zQgHTEu3VZ jyrA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwdXoRHscrHpvpuFout30YnC2F+Vth29Go6GuiAvBjm1prVdPds J3YggEsOIKiVG5XxMoOUyiO7HGYtbfjT07hllpHuAp4TZNg13unolDxUYneeXQ== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncsaGzARS5G+oCl/dFxRVUA17Bz+hHLI1Zi2+6VaybfPjyMsIw/N12GxgbGErk1 ertFTFR1NvfW+Zb6GL9FtLaVjlnVGHecxRWS4oVN7yia+gcrQi4ZTs+nxRoybd+kr8FR5BmCxwB a2HCM2juv5gziyLNXQfk7xwC/Ifd5h+UkuG/3w5kGWalbTJ8WeVi8wjTo20NDNMl8pNfSetyrUA j1iIsh5GsdkNPZQaZ38sYCVCYySiZtmQyJGh4TMloZ4VC3otRP51V9IAcKFztZP91N6PYn4sUZU /Ht161u7Lhszstnez4MoLV5im1f4i7FIrBWbojN2/oNjnhtzegi+Tw7vAzSGF/ul+Xov3TQn5bh /EggVYNfDrf0udd/qZ/Jze5M7NVNn9Mna2jWcdZK/lwrrCDH9kKl1Byv0r3I8k4wqBmVlu2118N jA X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEXG7Dy2iipvIRrD6vYeew65Um0d0h0jbgrB/cCkeUIHabITTL6boNHcVYFimX6SdpLgeIIpQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6902:120f:b0:e90:5a65:24a6 with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-e905a652744mr3170942276.16.1754748503741; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 07:08:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPV6:2600:1700:18f0:6812:129a:8666:ef01:3293? ([2600:1700:18f0:6812:129a:8666:ef01:3293]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 3f1490d57ef6-e8fe073284fsm7527165276.21.2025.08.09.07.08.23 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 09 Aug 2025 07:08:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 10:08:23 -0400 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Thunderbird Daily Content-Language: en-US To: FreeBSD Current From: Ian FREISLICH Subject: OpenSSL legacy provider is broken Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.99 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20230601]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[current@freebsd.org]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[current@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::b35:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzjRd67VRz3JlY X-Spamd-Bar: --- Hi Previously this worked [brane] /usr/ports # openssl list -providers -provider legacy Providers: legacy name: OpenSSL Legacy Provider version: 3.0.16 status: active Since the build last night, [router] /usr/ports/net/freeradius3 # openssl list -providers -provider legacy list: unable to load provider legacy Hint: use -provider-path option or OPENSSL_MODULES environment variable. 10B045DBE7340000:error:12800067:DSO support routines:dlfcn_load:could not load the shared library:/usr/src/crypto/openssl/crypto/dso/dso_dlfcn.c:118:filename(/usr/lib/ossl-modules/legacy.so): /usr/lib/ossl-modules/legacy.so: Undefined symbol "ossl_kdf_pvk_functions" 10B045DBE7340000:error:12800067:DSO support routines:DSO_load:could not load the shared library:/usr/src/crypto/openssl/crypto/dso/dso_lib.c:147: 10B045DBE7340000:error:07880025:common libcrypto routines:provider_init:reason(37):/usr/src/crypto/openssl/crypto/provider_core.c:1019:name=legacy and freeradius doesn't start because of this: [router] /usr/ports/net/freeradius3 # radiusd -fX FreeRADIUS Version 3.2.7 ... (TLS) Failed loading legacy provider I haven't yet figured out what part of my EAP configuration needs the legacy provider. It may be that EAP just needs a working legacy provider because it looks like the EAP module unconditionally attempts to load the provider and fails. Ian From nobody Sat Aug 9 14:15:38 2025 X-Original-To: current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzjby3zp7z64NNr for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 14:15:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ianfreislich@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yb1-xb36.google.com (mail-yb1-xb36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b36]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzjbx6Z1Vz3LTm for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 14:15:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ianfreislich@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=Wyp699QS; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ianfreislich@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::b36 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ianfreislich@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com Received: by mail-yb1-xb36.google.com with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-e905e61d227so296788276.1 for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 07:15:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1754748939; x=1755353739; darn=freebsd.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:content-language :references:to:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id:from :to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=KVYVpjJGE5AVLcRk8PVZP9r9wNk62xoK7nq3JdNlFDk=; b=Wyp699QSGwLb+2kpXAoZDMYJQX+eU72kamX+wIiMsm1CDI6ts+VrwXkvVPcwWoGPuE B/akJh1YSu6UKTc8voiGaqAH/3S8aJyNL9Lw9+42JKz/x+xYL7ZSHO9RDLJuHxAPfEYb ov2fE7mFPmj2m7kO+nMnNuC2H4yl+KvMDYXvQOmO194hm1R1NjWbnjnRa0ULfp+MDp1d auYODQAqUdbQzxtPrYk/rJgeZ5tQPz2vEN0PJywtUQvjWiQoMIJlU9O5Z2+rFDzwNauf SUAvMW2vguhIPLrL0vb13nco+kTqg1qWWgVwGA2UMeVt9AG7KP0g0NUTskMBH2FGcJt4 eYXg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1754748939; x=1755353739; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:content-language :references:to:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=KVYVpjJGE5AVLcRk8PVZP9r9wNk62xoK7nq3JdNlFDk=; b=tL2kFp8wIDf7EXrkqTeYzUmlCPDzguov54pudcfUWTVXBBFeEuYW/jnZvBb+g7zK5n WMuFz8hnQrmjbVivXcefsETTRca6cRQkjsJpHPK9P8yQWWVNyjv8E7utVaszKmfYLG8g DKNGJorORWDEA1rZdgHhkCPw1k+5BUKz6GT8NNxiYcVvT+fsmOsJi8pgyD7+5QIgRspM XKvA/h7T7IoFKyOi9SwXNy7XEz74SZLpJJ9FlkCySSdUr+C5hg6W0y7Oogd05oF8Hx9J ccmFY1VziaeAR2CHDAi50D64K9DV9ktQPo1uGzT2mapbVVa/noTxOgviE5+EbiI26pFa BVwQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwpPO451yxdukwIwQAB209T6DkYvLzddDiAb0fX7NH2YZwHtiXG MuVP/4/jJftyI5IFUaFvJr5ARn7M621pgmgdI+zXBVnUltOq45PWqnHSYs3WYw== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncuYfU1OYpf1aqwJu/7dfeF6uomltOqc5MmmsjSLPJX6J8/a71VQ3aR6ABqQEUw hZGNktxZkGC0kF23g90J/o/C8d8OeYKFkodmrtSMOzMcqZGDNmCoZEXe2xKMnjGqW+1ch6U/KcS A0Og7NWMeJNE64TaMZ9zXOFHNsJ3kBon5oDrUPW6+p3PkegS+DBjJFPE8T+X+WWkcqjbmqumbWw gPY/K1TP0Y9DgA5MqYB0PnZpiMv+nWpEM6ogT2Wm04gAJinFvDgdqDc1HTm8ifVpje3zvMOKicH KqJ7Kd+XpOI1kBUE3LGXEpR3jZHajEHVa5nCgCaBd4DImkdVKrlpFWxuQlslXraFK7HBPCFP+Qm suQalfL3c9zzZ23GyYMfYlP6AOTJVDK6VgeIcVMHbi+T+i1MevDd0EVsldF5ILP8OAn/hdJjjc5 xq X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IH/AHHBwfIEPDBbnCWk8kSECogtmZBiGIXOthfiXsJQA1JAtPeb79StSVcABSeoTloNPM3IfA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6902:70c:b0:e90:582f:33b9 with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-e90582f3c26mr4840039276.26.1754748939257; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 07:15:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPV6:2600:1700:18f0:6812:129a:8666:ef01:3293? ([2600:1700:18f0:6812:129a:8666:ef01:3293]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 3f1490d57ef6-e8fd3894d9esm8051176276.36.2025.08.09.07.15.38 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 09 Aug 2025 07:15:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <66330a2d-4f52-4cc8-b5f4-ec795687a0a9@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 10:15:38 -0400 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Thunderbird Daily Subject: Re: delete-old-libs removes libgssapi.so.10 but leaves the dead symlink To: FreeBSD Current References: Content-Language: en-US From: Ian FREISLICH In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.99 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20230601]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[current@freebsd.org]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[current@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::b36:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzjbx6Z1Vz3LTm X-Spamd-Bar: --- On 2025-08-09 09:49, Lexi Winter wrote: > Ian FREISLICH: >> make delete-old-libs leaves a dead symlink libgssapi.so -> libgssapi.so.10. > > there are some issues with the OptionalObsoleteFiles entries when > turning WITH_MITKRB5 on and off, which is what handles removing the > old libgssapi. i'm planning to overhaul these and verify they're > actually correct... depending on what else comes up that might > happen in a day or two. I noticed because I had to rebuild ftp/curl. The port fails to complete configure with the default options (GSSAPI = GSSAPI_BASE). I had to set GSSAPI_NONE to get it to compile. Ian From nobody Sat Aug 9 14:16:25 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzjcv2Y3Zz64NNx for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 14:16:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dg@dglawrence.com) Received: from dglawrence.com (dglawrence.com [50.76.111.10]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mailx.dglawrence.com", Issuer "mailx.dglawrence.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzjct6lqwz3MDC; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 14:16:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dg@dglawrence.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from mailx.dglawrence.com ([10.19.1.8]) by dglawrence.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 579EGPv5046677 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 9 Aug 2025 07:16:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dg@dglawrence.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=dglawrence.com; s=ab7ba439; t=1754748985; bh=R9u8/nBq8rjkGPksXiE729gLhPrVc2JimqxTfszq8FY=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To; b=0B2g52N6sLDKBf34umJeeuDTRd+VRlZKoXFIjR2KgvJAqvdyl+SfyjV+qiq8bRBsF sJcmLmuRaOHfVGOL4Lr8zI6crAe5mGDFy/Lw2CZMnoZ/r/iSJTtYmQNE+BGZ1MyfsM w5rIE5s4eceEEwe/aaaQRryTdVHUbmGGlO0bnD5I= Received: (from dg@localhost) by mailx.dglawrence.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 579EGPSf046676; Sat, 9 Aug 2025 07:16:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dg@dglawrence.com) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 07:16:25 -0700 From: David G Lawrence To: Tomoaki AOKI Cc: Warner Losh , Michal Meloun , FreeBSD Current Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Message-ID: <20250809141625.GW26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> References: <20250809062925.GN26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> <929543B2-633E-44B5-B6F6-F292CCEADAB3@freebsd.org> <20250809065247.GO26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> <96820ff6-bdb0-4d25-ad78-502e30b7e479@FreeBSD.org> <20250809185418.7d272536dd5862d0bdfd39c2@dec.sakura.ne.jp> <20250809101145.GS26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> <20250809114244.GU26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> <20250809224836.f7207c3be3fbc8e0fd97f856@dec.sakura.ne.jp> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20250809224836.f7207c3be3fbc8e0fd97f856@dec.sakura.ne.jp> X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.2 (dglawrence.com [10.19.1.8]); Sat, 09 Aug 2025 07:16:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzjct6lqwz3MDC X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7922, ipnet:50.76.0.0/14, country:US] > > But now I'm going to say something controversial: I was disappointed > > by the reaction about AI, and how it could help the project, in the > > developers list. While I fully appreciate the concerns about "stealing" > > other people's work (indirectly through the training of the vast corpus of > > the Internet) - i.e., the potential to violate copyright, what was said in > > that thread - to dismiss what AI could do for the project, for the > > development cycle - was exceptionally, tragically, myopic. Most people in > > the world (and here I mean 5 Sigma +) have no idea what's about to hit > > them. I've been deep in AI research recently and I can tell you, first > > hand, well...we're in for interesting times ahead. We can either embrace > > it or be tossed into the scrap heap of history. > > My opinion about AI-generated codes is that "need to be clarified in > international law about copyrights and licenses first". > But it is, AFAIK, still in discussion at each countries. Not at UN. > This is the fatal problem. > > My assumption is "if the operator specifies the license to be > (including possibly to be) applied to the resulting codes, > AI referres only to non-violating knowledges/data/codes and > generate codes" is needed to be implemented by AI guys. I would caution against the assumption that the most advanced AI today somehow outputs some chunk of copyrighted code "verbatim". That may have occurred in what I would consider _ancient_ models, the training processes have changed dramatically in recent times. While I can't make any definitive statements about what other AIs do or how they were trained, I can say that the modern approach is to have each batch of training be re-written by another model to be semantically and logically the same (and I'm not just talking about code here), but different in how it is expressed so that it captures the _idea_, but not the verbatim text. While it is true that there really aren't too many ways to say "for (i = 0; i < N; i++)", that, usually, is about where the similarity ends with the original code. What used to happen in AI is a phenomenon called, I think inappropriately, "overfitting", which basically means that the model memorized an exact text because it was trained on that exact text repeatedly with no variation. In this case, it doesn't generalize the concept - it's more like a parrot. But, let's take a step back and look more generally at AI. Everyone, for some reason, seems to be assuming that AI can only be used for coding. I didn't say that - and I didn't even mean to suggest it. I am talking more about using AI in development workflows to make it easier to examine the proper functioning of the code that _you_ have written or that _others_ have contributed. The AI doesn't need to write one line of code. It can just analyze what you have written and make helpful suggestions on how you can improve it. And AI can do much more than that. It can help you when you're struggling with architectural directions - big picture stuff. It could help the project by being a first line of analysis of submitted bug reports. It could be an oracle of knowledge for users about how to set up FreeBSD, administer it, and solve user problems. If anyone in the project wants to use AI - for whatever of these use-cases, the very first thing you will need is: An Open Mind. -DG * Dr. David G. Lawrence * * DG Labs Pave the road of life with opportunities. From nobody Sat Aug 9 14:19:30 2025 X-Original-To: current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzjhL6B5qz64NWv for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 14:19:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ivy@freebsd.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:6074::16:84]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "freefall.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzjhL5Tvzz3NJR; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 14:19:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ivy@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754749170; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=3lRwUIsFNhApOdNcnokyvoxux8dB9yVxnPnbWwHxPF8=; b=jeYS+/2QK3sY9nLSAkxaeCgGShNWPawUj7wGJllW2dPnBWSJ5zXehy0Z3SbtIqleUh4rMZ W03zBeED/3HschvmG41+xpFJJEatcKrS6Wu7HAE01voGtq6cm11mtxrK95tI+xZZ20Ggq9 n6Bg516e9RNk6hR8SwUJXBjRVsK7mOGxnnG/EjKlpB08CEvYo9uQVI8MbgaFnzf6uU7pFU cC6a69T6JGjqb8bJjjHH/BeUAIm68U4zVBa1aAMzMuWbvVxfP8fqfjPsZoMW8m67c5X6Mq AN8nqU0Zieutya15Vj+SC4pwvZY3qruVD06HAvYLlPQM7Hw+OoAtVm703nCpHQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754749170; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=3lRwUIsFNhApOdNcnokyvoxux8dB9yVxnPnbWwHxPF8=; b=vFlRUoViDt9jJJp4V0xJTe+iB37B7dyYFJv2qXOpsF2IXfrknuiFcvgvXPJN/30UkHw1gm rEJS8S6oFaFk5Ac2Uy5iYBqm5U3UpGQo1Gb2tQZSaf+BPs+LOiUeFPOfLT3zuxiMmPN936 H2bZYiNac62ci2dQ9mScCkMfdJecbOOHTARAUqc8YmGuc5gdB49TtDVT/N9IyCCnxrOFAR euU10Ce4D09qNIjMa662q/E6uQD5AM1piQznT/0eYFoP/BtAN64pw9mFIPIlKqb99F+Buy C1vBy8W5qwRoiv4TeLXTi4whVpfb70+/seffTubsPPyfdz09j8ZYniOUujvthA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1754749170; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=fmZDOwE8jC0+JjgyeGRF3ejz3FYYqDrfbQfo2PwRVQsgyyn5Wej4YeeicE1ihfHkgHyQVl LOtf85BT9/1DiIYl8vbVMqGVha5CtbppqKKqB39MTGsdlKwJlAhLuksIBCxffiXWDsgBw7 cS2EnnSg93JBp+Gar+CwZ+UX3w76Q2iGodHbY950hod2296FVOwDMSQBW7dxsokoICnrFX joFf9tiLCbO40jIKpHxIBou/k7rRVDD3IcahZVMYjgjd0cEMCDzCNf/Gp5AD5dZ8BCD26C 8vZ+bNDEKo3fLjFBO0e3E/UURG/u+O3JXKu2Crs5PUZ/kuTsnvANc9SgXhzZBQ== Received: by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 1532) id B4AB31E69F; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 14:19:30 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 15:19:30 +0100 From: Lexi Winter To: Ian FREISLICH Cc: FreeBSD Current Subject: Re: delete-old-libs removes libgssapi.so.10 but leaves the dead symlink Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: Ian FREISLICH , FreeBSD Current References: <66330a2d-4f52-4cc8-b5f4-ec795687a0a9@gmail.com> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="WjRrVKtdAOfbrw6R" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <66330a2d-4f52-4cc8-b5f4-ec795687a0a9@gmail.com> --WjRrVKtdAOfbrw6R Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ian FREISLICH: > On 2025-08-09 09:49, Lexi Winter wrote: > > Ian FREISLICH: > > > make delete-old-libs leaves a dead symlink libgssapi.so -> libgssapi.= so.10. > > there are some issues with the OptionalObsoleteFiles entries when > > turning WITH_MITKRB5 on and off, which is what handles removing the > > old libgssapi. i'm planning to overhaul these and verify they're > > actually correct... depending on what else comes up that might > > happen in a day or two. =20 > I noticed because I had to rebuild ftp/curl. The port fails to complete > configure with the default options (GSSAPI =3D GSSAPI_BASE). I had to set > GSSAPI_NONE to get it to compile. this may not be related to the gssapi.so symlink. there are two outstanding reviews that should fix curl itself and things which depend on curl, when curl is built again base GSSAPI: https://reviews.freebsd.org/D51841 https://reviews.freebsd.org/D51842 --WjRrVKtdAOfbrw6R Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEABYKAB0WIQSyjTg96lp3RifySyn1nT63mIK/YAUCaJdY7gAKCRD1nT63mIK/ YOpIAP9nVZZMaZ+Do6DL4JskJz2b64KJmjEDUjins0bCOmtcDgEAoh+1NCRKxTIL 2iWA3W/3DFe6lDgdjFKZ3QmU4H+aHwQ= =R96l -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --WjRrVKtdAOfbrw6R-- From nobody Sat Aug 9 14:34:08 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzk1V0WPhz64PrC; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 14:34:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from zagazaw2004@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qt1-x82d.google.com (mail-qt1-x82d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82d]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzk1T2623z3Qxw; 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Sat, 09 Aug 2025 07:34:19 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <582d802f-da93-415c-9dee-1f1f1beb1830@smeets.xyz> <614fc6f3-0bbd-47a0-8f7b-9ed907230aa3@smeets.xyz> In-Reply-To: From: Maku Bex Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 09:34:08 -0500 X-Gm-Features: Ac12FXx9NWJAw_I-i-59jAizUEEK2zUyFShGEA-eK_xDtheBVl12ueI2o-uulMM Message-ID: Subject: Re: HEADS-UP: pkgbase pkg upgrade breaks systems Re: after updating to latest, pkg base segfaults and leaves me unbootable To: Florian Smeets , Dan Mahoney , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Current Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f30733063bef95b4" X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; 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"""When installing the FreeBSD-* packages in the next step, run the command as a super user. The password and group files will be temporarily reset to defaults, so if you install the packages using a one-off sudo command, you will lose access to the system.""" Source: https://wiki.freebsd.org/PkgBase On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 07:46 Lexi Winter wrote: > Florian Smeets: > > I uploaded the important part of /var/log/messages here > > https://people.freebsd.org/~flo/pkg-upgrade-20250808.txt> > > Aug 8 23:26:03 rp64 kernel: pid 18424 (pkg), jid 0, uid 0: exited on > signal 11 (core dumped) > > are you able to get a backtrace from this core? > --000000000000f30733063bef95b4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
By any chance, is this what you are experiencing?=C2=A0
"""When installi= ng the FreeBSD-* packages in the next step, run the command as a super user= . The password and group files will be temporarily reset to defaults, so if= you install the packages using a one-off sudo command, you will lose acces= s to the system."""


On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 0= 7:46 Lexi Winter <ivy@freebsd.org= > wrote:
Florian Smeets:
> I uploaded the important part of /var/log/messages here
> https://people.freebsd.org/~= flo/pkg-upgrade-20250808.txt>

Aug=C2=A0 8 23:26:03 rp64 kernel: pid 18424 (pkg), jid 0, uid 0: exited on = signal 11 (core dumped)

are you able to get a backtrace from this core?
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While I fully appreciate the concerns about "stealin= g" > > > other people's work (indirectly through the training of the vast corp= us of > > > the Internet) - i.e., the potential to violate copyright, what was sa= id in > > > that thread - to dismiss what AI could do for the project, for the > > > development cycle - was exceptionally, tragically, myopic. Most peopl= e in > > > the world (and here I mean 5 Sigma +) have no idea what's about to hi= t > > > them. I've been deep in AI research recently and I can tell you, firs= t > > > hand, well...we're in for interesting times ahead. We can either embr= ace > > > it or be tossed into the scrap heap of history. > > > > My opinion about AI-generated codes is that "need to be clarified in > > international law about copyrights and licenses first". > > But it is, AFAIK, still in discussion at each countries. Not at UN. > > This is the fatal problem. > > > > My assumption is "if the operator specifies the license to be > > (including possibly to be) applied to the resulting codes, > > AI referres only to non-violating knowledges/data/codes and > > generate codes" is needed to be implemented by AI guys. > > I would caution against the assumption that the most advanced AI today > somehow outputs some chunk of copyrighted code "verbatim". That may have > occurred in what I would consider _ancient_ models, the training processe= s > have changed dramatically in recent times. While I can't make any definit= ive > statements about what other AIs do or how they were trained, I can say > that the modern approach is to have each batch of training be re-written > by another model to be semantically and logically the same (and I'm not > just talking about code here), but different in how it is expressed so > that it captures the _idea_, but not the verbatim text. While it is true > that there really aren't too many ways to say "for (i =3D 0; i < N; i++)"= , > that, usually, is about where the similarity ends with the original code. > What used to happen in AI is a phenomenon called, I think inappropriately= , > "overfitting", which basically means that the model memorized an exact > text because it was trained on that exact text repeatedly with no variati= on. > In this case, it doesn't generalize the concept - it's more like a parrot= . None of that went into the thinking of why we can't use generative AI. The problem is that you can't claim copyright, per the US Copyright office, on works created by AI, even if you spend a bazillion years on the prompt. Copyright is only for works created by people. As such, using generative AI too heavily is a non-starter because no copyright -> no ability to license and a lot of uncertainty around the contribution. Until the bounds of that mess are sorted out, it's hard to accept contributions you know to be problematic. We have similar policies around murky issues with patent IP today as well and generally take a conservative approach there as well. Linux generally doesn't allow it, but there's been proposals to label AI generated or copilot assisted code created for the kernel. Last I checked, it's not been approved and there's a lot of concern about it there as well, so we're not unique here. And one can't dismiss ethical concerns over the use of AI technology out of hand. Just like you can't dismiss AI technology because some of its uses are problematic, or have out-sized effects (jobs, energy, creativity). It's an emerging, disruptive technology in many ways. But debating over the use of AI runs into reality sometimes. The AI generated slop that's appeared on github is a big waste of my time. It's total poo. Especially the one or two AI bots we've had show up and try to establish credibility. Big waste of time for me. It's not just the bots, many of the AI tools let you generate crap quickly. We've had one or two well-meaning folks show up with changes that have lacked the judgement to know the changes are too low-value, too risky or just plain wrong for us to evaluate. It's actively harmful to the project because too much slop starves out the good stuff since it's good enough that it takes a little bit of time to sort out that it's poo... > But, let's take a step back and look more generally at AI. Everyone, > for some reason, seems to be assuming that AI can only be used for coding= . > I didn't say that - and I didn't even mean to suggest it. I am talking > more about using AI in development workflows to make it easier to examine > the proper functioning of the code that _you_ have written or that > _others_ have contributed. The AI doesn't need to write one line of code. > It can just analyze what you have written and make helpful suggestions > on how you can improve it. And AI can do much more than that. It can help > you when you're struggling with architectural directions - big picture > stuff. It could help the project by being a first line of analysis of > submitted bug reports. It could be an oracle of knowledge for users > about how to set up FreeBSD, administer it, and solve user problems. Yes. And those uses of AI are permitted. It's code written by AI, and then lightly modified by you that's the problem. And people are using it for that today, or have mentioned they are. People actually using it say for these things it can be pretty good (which matches my experience), but not perfect. > If anyone in the project wants to use AI - for whatever of these > use-cases, the very first thing you will need is: An Open Mind. Yes. Of course. Sure, some folk have an overly-strict knee-jerk reaction to all things AI, and you saw that in the thread. But you always get that for new technology (it's the fear of the new that spawned this thread, for example). So I've used AI tools for work. They are good, like you say, at reasoning in the large about things. They can help understand the flow of code, where things go. They are so so about ferreting out the philosophy behind the code, so you know why elements of the design are there. It can point out bugs, and can do some code review to spot common problems. It can write prose way better than i, but I still have to edit the prose a bit to tone it down and make sure that it got the nuanced sense of some things right. I've also experimented with AI writing functions of larger chunks of code for me. But to date, all the times I've tried, it's taken me longer to debug the code, correct the comments, etc than it would have taken me to write it from scratch. It can be good at providing the 'boilerplate' for common types of subsystems that can be filled in faster and generally doesn't have a copyright value anyway (your for (int i =3D 0; i < N; i++) example), even w/o the copyright office's determination. It can also be good for spotting some bugs in code, but not great (there's some false positives that take some time to chase down, but it's been a bit of a net win when I've done it). One area that I'd love to.see someone get interested in (and commit to actually doing, rather than just talk about doing) is feeding our open PRs, our open Phabs, etc into and see which ones are worth it for humans to look at. Something that sits on the inbound pipes to the project and gives some feedback and alerts the right people about actually decent submissions. Those uses don't trigger most of the concerns people have about generative AI and wouldn't pose a risk for the project. This use of AI shows promise, is an extension of the automation we and others have done, and can be quite useful. So sure, we have too many luddites in the project, but generally people have found good ways to not let them be a problem... What we haven't found a good thing to do is onboard new people so we can grow the bench which helps solve the 'submission friction' problem we have as well (which is a virtuous cycle: the people that can submit and get stuff into the tree often submit more stuff)... Many of the reasons people use sub-optimal workflows today (like kernel modules in ports) stems ultimately from our being short on resources (both engineering and management). Warner > -DG > > * Dr. David G. Lawrence > * * DG Labs > Pave the road of life with opportunities. 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micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------zDj9BvSKUuDkaUQ8pgZC4gwI" This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------zDj9BvSKUuDkaUQ8pgZC4gwI Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------G9Tkrh3XtP3l078lnkwHJ7DO"; protected-headers="v1" From: Dima Panov To: Ian FREISLICH , FreeBSD Current Message-ID: Subject: Re: delete-old-libs removes libgssapi.so.10 but leaves the dead symlink References: <66330a2d-4f52-4cc8-b5f4-ec795687a0a9@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: --------------G9Tkrh3XtP3l078lnkwHJ7DO Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGVsbG8hDQoNCg0KZnRwL2N1cmwgYWxzbyBuZWVkIHNvbWUgbG92ZSB0byBidWlsZCB3aXRo IG1hc2UgbWl0IGtyYjUNCg0KDQpkaWZmIC0tZ2l0IGEvZnRwL2N1cmwvZmlsZXMvZXh0cmEt cGF0Y2gtZ3NzYXBpIGIvZnRwL2N1cmwvZmlsZXMvZXh0cmEtcGF0Y2gtZ3NzYXBpDQppbmRl eCBkMmI5MGQ0NmM4Li44MzA0ZDhjYzY3IDEwMDY0NA0KLS0tIGEvZnRwL2N1cmwvZmlsZXMv ZXh0cmEtcGF0Y2gtZ3NzYXBpDQorKysgYi9mdHAvY3VybC9maWxlcy9leHRyYS1wYXRjaC1n c3NhcGkNCkBAIC0xLDExICsxLDE0IEBADQogIC0tLSBjb25maWd1cmUub3JpZyAgICAgMjAy NC0xMi0xMSAwNzowODoxMiBVVEMNCiAgKysrIGNvbmZpZ3VyZQ0KLUBAIC0yNjIxMCw3ICsy NjIxMCw3IEBAIHByaW50ZiAiJXNcbiIgImZvdW5kIiA+JjY7IH0NCitAQCAtMjU4ODEsOSAr MjU4ODEsOSBAQCBwcmludGYgIiVzXG4iICJmb3VuZCIgPiY2OyB9DQogICAgICAgaWYgdGVz dCAtbiAiJGdudV9nc3MiOyB0aGVuDQogICAgICAgICBMSUJDVVJMX1BDX1JFUVVJUkVTX1BS SVZBVEU9IiRMSUJDVVJMX1BDX1JFUVVJUkVTX1BSSVZBVEUgZ3NzIg0KICAgICAgIGVsaWYg dGVzdCAieCRub3RfbWl0IiA9ICJ4MSI7IHRoZW4NCiAgLSAgICAgIExJQkNVUkxfUENfUkVR VUlSRVNfUFJJVkFURT0iJExJQkNVUkxfUENfUkVRVUlSRVNfUFJJVkFURSBoZWltZGFsLWdz c2FwaSINCiAgKyAgICAgIExJQkNVUkxfUENfUkVRVUlSRVNfUFJJVkFURT0iJExJQkNVUkxf UENfUkVRVUlSRVNfUFJJVkFURSINCiAgICAgICBlbHNlDQotICAgICAgIExJQkNVUkxfUENf UkVRVUlSRVNfUFJJVkFURT0iJExJQkNVUkxfUENfUkVRVUlSRVNfUFJJVkFURSBtaXQta3Ji NS1nc3NhcGkiDQorLSAgICAgIExJQkNVUkxfUENfUkVRVUlSRVNfUFJJVkFURT0iJExJQkNV UkxfUENfUkVRVUlSRVNfUFJJVkFURSBtaXQta3JiNS1nc3NhcGkiDQorKyAgICAgIExJQkNV UkxfUENfUkVRVUlSRVNfUFJJVkFURT0iJExJQkNVUkxfUENfUkVRVUlSRVNfUFJJVkFURSIN CiAgICAgICBmaQ0KKyAgIGZpDQorIGVsc2UNCg0KDQpPbiAwOS4wOC4yMDI1IDE3OjE5LCBM ZXhpIFdpbnRlciB3cm90ZToNCj4gSWFuIEZSRUlTTElDSDoNCj4+IE9uIDIwMjUtMDgtMDkg MDk6NDksIExleGkgV2ludGVyIHdyb3RlOg0KPj4+IElhbiBGUkVJU0xJQ0g6DQo+Pj4+IG1h a2UgZGVsZXRlLW9sZC1saWJzIGxlYXZlcyBhIGRlYWQgc3ltbGluayBsaWJnc3NhcGkuc28g LT4gbGliZ3NzYXBpLnNvLjEwLg0KPiANCj4+PiB0aGVyZSBhcmUgc29tZSBpc3N1ZXMgd2l0 aCB0aGUgT3B0aW9uYWxPYnNvbGV0ZUZpbGVzIGVudHJpZXMgd2hlbg0KPj4+IHR1cm5pbmcg V0lUSF9NSVRLUkI1IG9uIGFuZCBvZmYsIHdoaWNoIGlzIHdoYXQgaGFuZGxlcyByZW1vdmlu ZyB0aGUNCj4+PiBvbGQgbGliZ3NzYXBpLiAgaSdtIHBsYW5uaW5nIHRvIG92ZXJoYXVsIHRo ZXNlIGFuZCB2ZXJpZnkgdGhleSdyZQ0KPj4+IGFjdHVhbGx5IGNvcnJlY3QuLi4gZGVwZW5k aW5nIG9uIHdoYXQgZWxzZSBjb21lcyB1cCB0aGF0IG1pZ2h0DQo+Pj4gaGFwcGVuIGluIGEg ZGF5IG9yIHR3by4NCj4gICANCj4+IEkgbm90aWNlZCBiZWNhdXNlIEkgaGFkIHRvIHJlYnVp bGQgZnRwL2N1cmwuIFRoZSBwb3J0IGZhaWxzIHRvIGNvbXBsZXRlDQo+PiBjb25maWd1cmUg d2l0aCB0aGUgZGVmYXVsdCBvcHRpb25zIChHU1NBUEkgPSBHU1NBUElfQkFTRSkuIEkgaGFk IHRvIHNldA0KPj4gR1NTQVBJX05PTkUgdG8gZ2V0IGl0IHRvIGNvbXBpbGUuDQo+IA0KPiB0 aGlzIG1heSBub3QgYmUgcmVsYXRlZCB0byB0aGUgZ3NzYXBpLnNvIHN5bWxpbmsuICB0aGVy ZSBhcmUgdHdvDQo+IG91dHN0YW5kaW5nIHJldmlld3MgdGhhdCBzaG91bGQgZml4IGN1cmwg aXRzZWxmIGFuZCB0aGluZ3Mgd2hpY2gNCj4gZGVwZW5kIG9uIGN1cmwsIHdoZW4gY3VybCBp cyBidWlsdCBhZ2FpbiBiYXNlIEdTU0FQSToNCj4gDQo+IGh0dHBzOi8vcmV2aWV3cy5mcmVl YnNkLm9yZy9ENTE4NDENCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly9yZXZpZXdzLmZyZWVic2Qub3JnL0Q1MTg0Mg0K DQotLSANClNpbmNlcmVseSwNCkRpbWEgKGZsdWZmeUBGcmVlQlNELm9yZywgaHR0cHM6Ly90 Lm1lL0ZsdWZmeUJTRCwgQGZsdWZmeTptYXRyaXgtZGV2LmZyZWVic2Qub3JnKQ0KKGRlc2t0 b3AsIGtkZSwgeDExLCBvZmZpY2UsIHBvcnRzLXNlY3RlYW0pQEZyZWVCU0QgdGVhbQ0KDQo= --------------G9Tkrh3XtP3l078lnkwHJ7DO-- --------------zDj9BvSKUuDkaUQ8pgZC4gwI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; 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([2600:1700:18f0:6812:129a:8666:ef01:3293]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 00721157ae682-71bf7dd7baasm9210067b3.54.2025.08.09.10.01.43 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 09 Aug 2025 10:01:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 13:01:43 -0400 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Thunderbird Daily Subject: Re: delete-old-libs removes libgssapi.so.10 but leaves the dead symlink To: Dima Panov , FreeBSD Current References: <66330a2d-4f52-4cc8-b5f4-ec795687a0a9@gmail.com> Content-Language: en-US From: Ian FREISLICH In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bznHb0N58z3rb7 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] On 2025-08-09 12:54, Dima Panov wrote: > Hello! > > > ftp/curl also need some love to build with mase mit krb5 > > > diff --git a/ftp/curl/files/extra-patch-gssapi b/ftp/curl/files/extra- > patch-gssapi > index d2b90d46c8..8304d8cc67 100644 > --- a/ftp/curl/files/extra-patch-gssapi > +++ b/ftp/curl/files/extra-patch-gssapi > @@ -1,11 +1,14 @@ >  --- configure.orig     2024-12-11 07:08:12 UTC >  +++ configure > -@@ -26210,7 +26210,7 @@ printf "%s\n" "found" >&6; } > +@@ -25881,9 +25881,9 @@ printf "%s\n" "found" >&6; } >       if test -n "$gnu_gss"; then >         LIBCURL_PC_REQUIRES_PRIVATE="$LIBCURL_PC_REQUIRES_PRIVATE gss" >       elif test "x$not_mit" = "x1"; then >  -      LIBCURL_PC_REQUIRES_PRIVATE="$LIBCURL_PC_REQUIRES_PRIVATE > heimdal-gssapi" >  +      LIBCURL_PC_REQUIRES_PRIVATE="$LIBCURL_PC_REQUIRES_PRIVATE" >       else > -       LIBCURL_PC_REQUIRES_PRIVATE="$LIBCURL_PC_REQUIRES_PRIVATE mit- > krb5-gssapi" > +-      LIBCURL_PC_REQUIRES_PRIVATE="$LIBCURL_PC_REQUIRES_PRIVATE mit- > krb5-gssapi" > ++      LIBCURL_PC_REQUIRES_PRIVATE="$LIBCURL_PC_REQUIRES_PRIVATE" >       fi > +   fi > + else Seems like there have been a lot of breaking changes recently. The new OpenSSL broke freeradius3 too so I've got no EAP on my network. Ian From nobody Sat Aug 9 18:39:18 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzqSb3S3jz646d2; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 18:39:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@gushi.org) Received: from prime.gushi.org (prime.gushi.org [IPv6:2620:137:6000:10::142]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature ECDSA (secp384r1) client-digest SHA384) (Client CN "prime.gushi.org", Issuer "E6" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzqSZ6386z446C; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 18:39:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@gushi.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from smtpclient.apple ([IPv6:2001:500:6b:200:c000:0:0:a]) (authenticated bits=0) by prime.gushi.org (8.18.1/8.18.1) with ESMTPSA id 579IdXZA010642 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 9 Aug 2025 18:39:34 GMT (envelope-from freebsd@gushi.org) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 prime.gushi.org 579IdXZA010642 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gushi.org; s=prime2014; t=1754764774; bh=oEkjtmzlShGu34SxKZHV1w3N1ovWrSJ8ilndxyEk6ck=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; z=Subject:=20Re:=20HEADS-UP:=20pkgbase=20pkg=20upgrade=20breaks=20s ystems=20Re:=20after=20updating=0D=0A=20to=20latest,=20pkg=20base= 20segfaults=20and=20leaves=20me=20unbootable|From:=20"Dan=20Mahone y=20(Ports)"=20|In-Reply-To:=20|Date:=20Sat,=209=20Aug=202025=2011:39:18=2 0-0700|Cc:=20Florian=20Smeets=20,=0D=0A=20freebsd- pkgbase@freebsd.org,=0D=0A=20freebsd-current@freebsd.org|Reference s:=20=0D=0A=20<582 d802f-da93-415c-9dee-1f1f1beb1830@smeets.xyz>=0D=0A=20=0D=0A=20<614fc6f3-0bbd-47a0-8f7b-9ed90 7230aa3@smeets.xyz>=0D=0A=20|To:=20Lexi=20Winter=20; b=dVJXqbGdnncBV4tpDMrQsoP9Z5AZn04qd6YaCSvNZOM6+Zr28t+48LyFfZsm3I7U9 J8ztRxekNk/G+O/jqTZzcOuC9Kk+78pVunShgQ3+JEo7G4XuGUR9fIgCl28MuYL229 3xg4JVUtwh7/96tPrh2L7kb8wkUkgf+MxNujVU1115ntoHEjMRzIJYZXBNGV8XnxYN v1MGqAPpStHhOArn6LXPwG+CmFHOaLYgzQE0e9putDojD1gJw5H2eOHtWIpgSJu28r /ZqVJKilp9pagnrOK8hnTqLLIt2aXyG28KsAZ7XDC5DvNWaJ4TzXzv1rOxQQ2vLXzc F9/VzagGibJ4w== X-Authentication-Warning: prime.gushi.org: Host [IPv6:2001:500:6b:200:c000:0:0:a] claimed to be smtpclient.apple Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3863.100.1\)) Subject: Re: HEADS-UP: pkgbase pkg upgrade breaks systems Re: after updating to latest, pkg base segfaults and leaves me unbootable From: "Dan Mahoney (Ports)" In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 11:39:18 -0700 Cc: Florian Smeets , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1E6C17B9-2089-4E66-B524-2F819E22D10C@gushi.org> References: <582d802f-da93-415c-9dee-1f1f1beb1830@smeets.xyz> <614fc6f3-0bbd-47a0-8f7b-9ed907230aa3@smeets.xyz> To: Lexi Winter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3863.100.1) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzqSZ6386z446C X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:393507, ipnet:2620:137:6000::/44, country:US] > On Aug 9, 2025, at 5:45=E2=80=AFAM, Lexi Winter = wrote: >=20 > Florian Smeets: >> I uploaded the important part of /var/log/messages here >> https://people.freebsd.org/~flo/pkg-upgrade-20250808.txt> >=20 > Aug 8 23:26:03 rp64 kernel: pid 18424 (pkg), jid 0, uid 0: exited on = signal 11 (core dumped) >=20 > are you able to get a backtrace from this core? For me, the cored program is Aug 8 20:38:58 poudriere kernel: : pid = 21537 (pkg), jid 0, uid 0: exited on signal 11 (core dumped) https://users.isc.org/~dmahoney/pkg.core Please let me know when it's no longer needed, I don't like leaving this = file around. -Dan= From nobody Sat Aug 9 19:06:25 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzr4c55nPz649DK; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 19:07:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pat@patmaddox.com) Received: from fhigh-a1-smtp.messagingengine.com (fhigh-a1-smtp.messagingengine.com [103.168.172.152]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzr4b3GK2z4722; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 19:07:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pat@patmaddox.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; 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Sat, 9 Aug 2025 15:07:24 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-ThreadId: T3e9ca0f36eb84e30 Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2025 12:06:25 -0700 From: "Pat Maddox" To: "David Chisnall" , "Santiago Martinez" Cc: vermaden , "Sulev-Madis Silber" , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Message-Id: <5468c172-359f-4cdc-b142-7be1a5d70f16@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <7D0CD326-0CB0-41F0-99C2-BFEB9F4DC1EA@FreeBSD.org> References: <79429D6B-7948-4D27-9F14-664CC075547A@FreeBSD.org> <7D0CD326-0CB0-41F0-99C2-BFEB9F4DC1EA@FreeBSD.org> Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.03 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.94)[-0.938]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[patmaddox.com,none]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[patmaddox.com:s=fm2,messagingengine.com:s=fm3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:103.168.172.128/27]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[103.168.172.152:from]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[messagingengine.com:dkim]; ASN(0.00)[asn:151847, ipnet:103.168.172.0/24, country:AU]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[pat]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org,freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org,freebsd-stable@freebsd.org]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[interia.pl,ketas.si.pri.ee,freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[7]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[patmaddox.com:+,messagingengine.com:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzr4b3GK2z4722 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- On Fri, Aug 8, 2025, at 7:20 AM, David Chisnall wrote: > On 8 Aug 2025, at 15:02, Santiago Martinez wrote: >> This is the same we have today. No extra complexity or confusion, act= ually it is quite simple , if you want to touch your base system just ex= plicitly targeting it ( what we do today with FreeBSD-update) > > What is the reason that you would want to install updates for packages=20 > built by ports and *not* want to install updates to the base system? I don't have to reboot my system after upgrading third-party software. I= may have to after updating the base system. Also, when something breaks, it's usually because something changed. If = I can compartmentalize the changes, I can better understand what causes = an issue. The OS is a bigger, more involved dependency than third-party software. = I think about them on different cycles, I want to control them on differ= ent cycles. > Currently, you need to do these separately because they are managed by=20 > two separate tools, but that=E2=80=99s an accident. It was never a de= liberate=20 > usability choice to have different ways of updating different parts of=20 > the system. Fixing this is one of the goals of pkgbase. I think this conflates the mechanism and policy a bit. Before pkgbase, the default freebsd policy is to upgrade base and third-= party separately. Perhaps that was an accidental outcome of them using d= ifferent mechanisms, I don't know. But it's been that way for a long, lo= ng time. Thus people talking about POLA. pkgbase introduces a new mechanism for updating base. Now what we're see= ing is two camps of what the default policy should be: - camp A says retain the default freebsd policy of updating base and thi= rd-party separately - camp B says change the default freebsd policy to updating them all tog= ether Hopefully without making things too confusing, I think people are also t= alking past each other a bit because there's a conflict between the hist= orical policy of base/third-party, and pkg. Because we could also say: - camp A says change the default pkg policy to account for base/third-pa= rty separation - camp B says retain the default pkg policy to operate on all packages In short, based on the proposals I've seen here, there's a tension: eith= er retain freebsd default policy and change pkg default policy, or vice = versa. Maybe there's a way of resolving the tension, or maybe the projec= t just needs to pick one and move on. >> Nothing stops the user from upgrading base (target base) then upgradi= ng the rest. Or to have a target that is =E2=80=9Call=E2=80=9D. > > This is still possible with pkgbase. If you want to stage things,=20 > simply use the `-r` flag. But when do you *actively want* that? Same as before: I want to be able to answer, do two versions of third-pa= rty software run on a single known version of FreeBSD? Likewise, does on= e version of third-party software run on multiple known versions of Free= BSD? > Every upgrade flow I have on every FreeBSD machine I use is simplified=20 > by pkgbase. Having fewer tools is a usability win. Having a single=20 > command upgrade everything is a usability win. If you *want to*=20 > upgrade only some things, that=E2=80=99s one extra command-line flag. That's perfectly reasonable to me. I guess the core question is: why change the established policy of updat= ing base and third-party separately, and require users to use a flag to = retain it? Why not retain the policy, and require users to use a flag to= update both separately? - Because it's so inherently superior to the old way that it should be t= he default, and people who want the old way just need to read UPDATING t= o know the tweaks to make? - Because doing so would make the semantics of `pkg` too confusing? So w= e accept the tradeoff of changing established upgrade policy, and again = people need to be familiar with UPDATING? - Other reasons? pkgbase seems like a fine mechanism for upgrading base. The issue at han= d seems to be that the current approach changes the default freebsd upgr= ade policy in a significant way. Pat From nobody Sat Aug 9 19:19:04 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzrLs5rp7z64BQh; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 19:19:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pat@patmaddox.com) Received: from fhigh-a1-smtp.messagingengine.com (fhigh-a1-smtp.messagingengine.com [103.168.172.152]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzrLs1mJJz4Bqb; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 19:19:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pat@patmaddox.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=patmaddox.com header.s=fm2 header.b=b5Y9U0re; dkim=pass header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b="I 0ewN7H"; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of pat@patmaddox.com designates 103.168.172.152 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pat@patmaddox.com; 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Sat, 9 Aug 2025 15:19:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-ThreadId: T3e9ca0f36eb84e30 Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2025 12:19:04 -0700 From: "Pat Maddox" To: "Brandon Allbery" , "DutchDaemon - FreeBSD Forums Administrator" Cc: "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" , "FreeBSD CURRENT" , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Message-Id: <90f83695-286f-4e95-b2a4-98e1cae5da4e@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <79429D6B-7948-4D27-9F14-664CC075547A@FreeBSD.org> <7D0CD326-0CB0-41F0-99C2-BFEB9F4DC1EA@FreeBSD.org> <81470e1f-5a91-453b-a1aa-20a7e9fb8855@FreeBSD.org> <33CC4995-5B1D-4640-A5B0-2E7AD599D5BA@FreeBSD.org> Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.54 / 15.00]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.95)[-0.948]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[patmaddox.com,none]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:103.168.172.128/27:c]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[patmaddox.com:s=fm2,messagingengine.com:s=fm3]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[103.168.172.152:from]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com,freebsd.org]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[patmaddox.com:+,messagingengine.com:+]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[messagingengine.com:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org,freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org,freebsd-stable@freebsd.org]; ASN(0.00)[asn:151847, ipnet:103.168.172.0/24, country:AU]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[pat]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzrLs1mJJz4Bqb X-Spamd-Bar: -- On Fri, Aug 8, 2025, at 8:44 AM, Brandon Allbery wrote: > On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 11:30=E2=80=AFAM DutchDaemon - FreeBSD Forums=20 > Administrator wrote: >> (trying to see the upside) > > As stated earlier in the thread: embedded hardware which wants as=20 > minimal a base system as they can get away with. The flip side of the=20 > all-encompassing base system is that it's *big*. And grown considerabl= y=20 > since the early days, making the early-days management of base a=20 > problem now. I understand where you're coming from. It's also doable today, right? Yo= u set the knobs you want in src.conf and make.conf, and you get a smalle= r base system. I assume this is reasonable for people doing custom embed= ded hardware systems. Fine-grained packages makes it more convenient to do this, without havin= g to build base yourself. One question I have is, does this make things = more broadly effective? One of the reasons I came back to FreeBSD is precisely because in Linux = container land, I had no idea what the system was running. The OS could = be alpine or debian. Someone could have decided that `ps` shouldn't be i= nstalled (true story, that was fun to debug). Core utils are installed w= ith busybox, so grep flags match neither GNU nor BSD, and scripts break. Today, I can say "It's a FreeBSD system, I know this." [1] I immediately= know what its base capabilities are, and what its enhanced capabilities= are through third-party software. I suppose that will remain true, the = only thing being that it will have fewer base capabilities out of the bo= x. Additional capabilities then behave more like third-party software, j= ust provided and tested by the project. 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Sat, 9 Aug 2025 15:24:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-ThreadId: T3e9ca0f36eb84e30 Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2025 12:24:21 -0700 From: "Pat Maddox" To: "David Chisnall" , "Santiago Martinez" Cc: vermaden , "Sulev-Madis Silber" , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Message-Id: <54898afa-183b-4b39-9e4b-d44c461289c1@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5468c172-359f-4cdc-b142-7be1a5d70f16@app.fastmail.com> References: <79429D6B-7948-4D27-9F14-664CC075547A@FreeBSD.org> <7D0CD326-0CB0-41F0-99C2-BFEB9F4DC1EA@FreeBSD.org> <5468c172-359f-4cdc-b142-7be1a5d70f16@app.fastmail.com> Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.97 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.88)[-0.879]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[patmaddox.com,none]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[patmaddox.com:s=fm2,messagingengine.com:s=fm3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:103.168.172.128/27:c]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[103.168.172.145:from]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[messagingengine.com:dkim]; ASN(0.00)[asn:151847, ipnet:103.168.172.0/24, country:AU]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[pat]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org,freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org,freebsd-stable@freebsd.org]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[interia.pl,ketas.si.pri.ee,freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[7]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[patmaddox.com:+,messagingengine.com:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzrSZ2Zp2z4FXH X-Spamd-Bar: --- On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, at 12:06 PM, Pat Maddox wrote: > On Fri, Aug 8, 2025, at 7:20 AM, David Chisnall wrote: >> Every upgrade flow I have on every FreeBSD machine I use is simplifie= d=20 >> by pkgbase. Having fewer tools is a usability win. Having a single=20 >> command upgrade everything is a usability win. If you *want to*=20 >> upgrade only some things, that=E2=80=99s one extra command-line flag. > > That's perfectly reasonable to me. > > I guess the core question is: why change the established policy of=20 > updating base and third-party separately, and require users to use a=20 > flag to retain it? Why not retain the policy, and require users to use=20 > a flag to update both separately? This should be: "why change the established policy of updating base and = third-party separately, and require users to use a flag to retain it? Wh= y not retain the policy, and require users to use a flag to update both = **together**?" > - Because it's so inherently superior to the old way that it should be=20 > the default, and people who want the old way just need to read UPDATIN= G=20 > to know the tweaks to make? > - Because doing so would make the semantics of `pkg` too confusing? So=20 > we accept the tradeoff of changing established upgrade policy, and=20 > again people need to be familiar with UPDATING? > - Other reasons? > > pkgbase seems like a fine mechanism for upgrading base. The issue at=20 > hand seems to be that the current approach changes the default freebsd=20 > upgrade policy in a significant way. From nobody Sat Aug 9 19:54:30 2025 X-Original-To: current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzs7B0KZ3z64GHl for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 19:54:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from herbert@gojira.at) Received: from mail.bsd4all.net (mail.bsd4all.net [IPv6:2a01:4f8:13b:240c::25]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzs785bgzz4Kx5 for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 19:54:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from herbert@gojira.at) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gojira.at header.s=mail202005 header.b=t7lplR8i; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of herbert@gojira.at designates 2a01:4f8:13b:240c::25 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=herbert@gojira.at; dmarc=none Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2025 21:54:30 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=gojira.at; s=mail202005; t=1754769276; bh=inRtUMP89AvQZQext9VgYxYhS7PgVouzr9TN5F13CVY=; h=Date:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=t7lplR8i52I4uehVVaMoQbpoqw9WGwh2BXs4dlNUwyvz6vpBtkK/Ynx+zpjobc8zR tcUgHBHNPm5MH/5fcWE/td9SRCiNlcFVZMz9KXZKV8tMzAiGtQGBrVoea9FyBtadHa Oo37Bljzk4/FBmrGCLpBV9eJr6ubmj6Ax2P2DQgfE69h7vJSf4MjqyXEkfok3S6gcr X3DGaMphLUIA9E1eoyohdYIY4/K35Y8IbYUy6GTc6kFj/qleRJEh+i0bDiCiRusX47 F4JLZHjAWp2z3Vjk7hjF9tNuGxmd7NC3buFwdn8tHZmhGVoq7FNmcKQO2jD1+w6i95 TAUJpDWI3Ws/w== Message-ID: <87v7mw1dah.wl-herbert@gojira.at> From: "Herbert J. Skuhra" To: current@freebsd.org Subject: WITHOUT_TESTS(_SUPPORT) - leftovers User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/31.0 Mule/6.0 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.50 / 15.00]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.997]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gojira.at:s=mail202005]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a01:4f8:13b:240c::25]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:24940, ipnet:2a01:4f8::/32, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[gojira.at]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[current@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gojira.at:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzs785bgzz4Kx5 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Hi, I think (at least) the following files are missing in OptionalObsoleteFiles.inc: On main: % ls -l /usr/lib/libprivateatf-c* -r--r--r-- 1 root wheel 1503708 Dec 23 2024 /usr/lib/libprivateatf-c++.a lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 22 Dec 23 2024 /usr/lib/libprivateatf-c++.so -> libprivateatf-c++.so.2 -r--r--r-- 1 root wheel 411604 Dec 23 2024 /usr/lib/libprivateatf-c.a lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 20 Dec 23 2024 /usr/lib/libprivateatf-c.so -> libprivateatf-c.so.1 On stable/14: $ ls -l /usr/lib/libprivateatf-c* -r--r--r-- 1 root wheel 221904 Dec 16 2021 /usr/lib/libprivateatf-c++.a -r--r--r-- 1 root wheel 175516 Dec 16 2021 /usr/lib/libprivateatf-c.a diff --git a/tools/build/mk/OptionalObsoleteFiles.inc b/tools/build/mk/OptionalObsoleteFiles.inc index b30604238855..40dc4f27fae5 100644 --- a/tools/build/mk/OptionalObsoleteFiles.inc +++ b/tools/build/mk/OptionalObsoleteFiles.inc @@ -11326,7 +11326,11 @@ OLD_FILES+=usr/include/atf-c/macros.h OLD_FILES+=usr/include/atf-c/tc.h OLD_FILES+=usr/include/atf-c/tp.h OLD_FILES+=usr/include/atf-c/utils.h +OLD_LIBS+=usr/lib/libprivateatf-c++.a +OLD_FILES+=usr/lib/libprivateatf-c++.so OLD_LIBS+=usr/lib/libprivateatf-c++.so.2 +OLD_LIBS+=usr/lib/libprivateatf-c.a +OLD_FILES+=usr/lib/libprivateatf-c.so OLD_LIBS+=usr/lib/libprivateatf-c.so.1 OLD_FILES+=usr/share/examples/kyua/kyua.conf OLD_FILES+=usr/share/examples/kyua/Kyuafile.top -- Herbert From nobody Sat Aug 9 20:12:28 2025 X-Original-To: current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzsWl24khz64Ht6 for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 20:12:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from herbert@gojira.at) Received: from mail.bsd4all.net (mail.bsd4all.net [IPv6:2a01:4f8:13b:240c::25]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzsWk4Blxz4NxT for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 20:12:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from herbert@gojira.at) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gojira.at header.s=mail202005 header.b=r7bQxN1n; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of herbert@gojira.at designates 2a01:4f8:13b:240c::25 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=herbert@gojira.at; dmarc=none Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2025 22:12:28 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=gojira.at; s=mail202005; t=1754770348; bh=Tuyribw+G3iCO4mXzYUfsLVViILj/SyARnmM4EN/zJI=; h=Date:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=r7bQxN1nzuPrvqyWOXPkt55KzbCIZc7ak9vgJiRkL3e0Nfp1tZPp2zemp6ki/Prt0 mFidaOhthD5mjZ+RWSnn3nxGouubDR5d7vCU50HUsW4hsPLNDVTrTrMMAeoEbvmPrK ghR15ai52gVjhUrMpnTaMS23C4F/y7/az0GUQtuTmLKvd046XpBrBC8gviM+yMMwV8 1uxkSFzC+kvn1fz+1ZgqOKwVei/jj6SUAGrCtXIw0VRWc41D3omYVYK7QxUIlHrC3x buFv8gwVEkr0n+Mxe+caJos6kmSwGwGydjJkG0tmWnw8WQhnSCxbLb0edESaLovwff 5v1gatS4H091g== Message-ID: <87tt2g1cgj.wl-herbert@gojira.at> From: "Herbert J. Skuhra" To: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: WITHOUT_TESTS(_SUPPORT) - leftovers In-Reply-To: <87v7mw1dah.wl-herbert@gojira.at> References: <87v7mw1dah.wl-herbert@gojira.at> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/31.0 Mule/6.0 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.49 / 15.00]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.992]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gojira.at:s=mail202005]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a01:4f8:13b:240c::25]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:24940, ipnet:2a01:4f8::/32, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[gojira.at]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[current@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gojira.at:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzsWk4Blxz4NxT X-Spamd-Bar: -- On Sat, 09 Aug 2025 21:54:30 +0200, "Herbert J. Skuhra" wrote: > > Hi, > > I think (at least) the following files are missing in > OptionalObsoleteFiles.inc: > > On main: > > % ls -l /usr/lib/libprivateatf-c* > -r--r--r-- 1 root wheel 1503708 Dec 23 2024 /usr/lib/libprivateatf-c++.a > lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 22 Dec 23 2024 /usr/lib/libprivateatf-c++.so -> libprivateatf-c++.so.2 > -r--r--r-- 1 root wheel 411604 Dec 23 2024 /usr/lib/libprivateatf-c.a > lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 20 Dec 23 2024 /usr/lib/libprivateatf-c.so -> libprivateatf-c.so.1 > > On stable/14: > > $ ls -l /usr/lib/libprivateatf-c* > -r--r--r-- 1 root wheel 221904 Dec 16 2021 /usr/lib/libprivateatf-c++.a > -r--r--r-- 1 root wheel 175516 Dec 16 2021 /usr/lib/libprivateatf-c.a diff --git a/tools/build/mk/OptionalObsoleteFiles.inc b/tools/build/mk/OptionalObsoleteFiles.inc index b30604238855..a149d6f50931 100644 --- a/tools/build/mk/OptionalObsoleteFiles.inc +++ b/tools/build/mk/OptionalObsoleteFiles.inc @@ -11326,7 +11326,11 @@ OLD_FILES+=usr/include/atf-c/macros.h OLD_FILES+=usr/include/atf-c/tc.h OLD_FILES+=usr/include/atf-c/tp.h OLD_FILES+=usr/include/atf-c/utils.h +OLD_FILES+=usr/lib/libprivateatf-c++.a +OLD_FILES+=usr/lib/libprivateatf-c++.so OLD_LIBS+=usr/lib/libprivateatf-c++.so.2 +OLD_FILES+=usr/lib/libprivateatf-c.a +OLD_FILES+=usr/lib/libprivateatf-c.so OLD_LIBS+=usr/lib/libprivateatf-c.so.1 OLD_FILES+=usr/share/examples/kyua/kyua.conf OLD_FILES+=usr/share/examples/kyua/Kyuafile.top From nobody Sat Aug 9 20:35:34 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzt2W4TMsz64Kw4 for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 20:35:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Received: from smtpo73.interia.pl (smtpo73.interia.pl [217.74.67.73]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzt2W147Lz3H8j; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 20:35:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2025 22:35:34 +0200 From: vermaden Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature To: Warner Losh , David G Lawrence Cc: Tomoaki AOKI , Michal Meloun , FreeBSD Current X-Mailer: interia.pl/pf09 In-Reply-To: References: <20250809062925.GN26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> <929543B2-633E-44B5-B6F6-F292CCEADAB3@freebsd.org> <20250809065247.GO26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> <96820ff6-bdb0-4d25-ad78-502e30b7e479@FreeBSD.org> <20250809185418.7d272536dd5862d0bdfd39c2@dec.sakura.ne.jp> <20250809101145.GS26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> X-Originating-IP: 45.148.42.1 Message-Id: List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=-Uqe0AMNuwGRd2AX0vwOJ" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=interia.pl; s=biztos; t=1754771739; bh=kPNp78HL1pg/y3IlvvRlnjkBPMDM01MmqPHlEhNk91Q=; h=Date:From:Subject:To:Message-Id:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=nCm16LBhuQkL+mjcux3XlIgrK/lQerQI5LyGq6mo0ox3FogJaMd7e+DSYfl5G7auQ hRCZYDEuc7ZMJE0DdNJDBjiXdjDwCRHNlLFWr2gi7l6BTWUmTRRCeERDkdlDwoARi/ BbTrUTkg2hiaKFBf85veJGh13JRbyDyrKiQrgAP0= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzt2W147Lz3H8j X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16138, ipnet:217.74.64.0/22, country:PL] --=-Uqe0AMNuwGRd2AX0vwOJ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Fun fact: bectl would completely fix the pkg delete issue.Does bectl(8= ) works with UFS filesystem?I know that this is rhetorical question.If prop= erly installed FreeBSD can even have UFS Boot Environments:- https://vermad= en.wordpress.com/2021/04/02/ufs-boot-environments/But that is just workarou= nd for the problem - not a solution.Regards,vermadenTemat: Re: PKGBASE Remo= ves FreeBSD Base System FeatureData: 2025-08-09 13:17Nadawca: "Warner Losh"= <imp@bsdimp.com>Adresat: "David G Lawrence" <dg@dglawrence.com>= ;; DW: "Tomoaki AOKI" <junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp>; "Michal Meloun" &l= t;mmel@freebsd.org>; "FreeBSD Current" <freebsd-current@freebsd.org&g= t;; On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 4:13=E2=80=AFAM David G Lawrence <dg@dglawrence= .com> wrote:> On Sat, 9 Aug 2025 09:08:53 +0200 > Michal Meloun &l= t;mmel@FreeBSD.org> wrote: > > > On 8/9/2025 8:52 AM, David G = Lawrence wrote: > > >> On 9 Aug 2025, at 07:29, David Greenman-= Lawrence <dg@dglawrence.com> wrote: > > >>> > > = >>> FWIW, I do have an opinion on this: I think that "pkg delete -= af" is > > >>> a useful thing that should not destroy your b= ase system. We should find > > >>> a way to make that work a= s it always has > > >> > > >> Today, it will destro= y any kernel modules installed from packages, including those necessary for= the display to work. It will destroy the ability for WiFi to work if you??= ?re using wifibox. There are a lot of other things in ports that are essent= ial to the system for some systems. > > > > > >  &n= bsp;  We can fix that, too. ...but destroying kernel modules doesn't m= ean your > > > system doesn't work - it just means X11 won't work = when you reboot - but then > > > it wouldn't anyway because you de= leted X11. But, here's the thing: X11 didn't > > > work when you f= irst installed the base system, either. And perhaps your > > > Wif= i didn't work out of the box, either. So you have some work to do to > &= gt; > get back basic functionality - but you knew that when you did the = > > > "pkg delete -af" in the first place. > > > > &g= t; > -DG > > > > I cannot but agree wholeheartedly.. The ac= tual situation with > > pkg delete and pkgbase is (for me) simply abs= urd. > > > > kmod in the ports is a different problem ??? it s= hows the inability of > > FBSD developers to implement these things = on their own,  so this > > solution  has some problems.&nb= sp; And don't kill me, I fully understand that > > it's not possible= , but that doesn't change the previous fact. > > > > Michal &= gt; > Sometimes yes, but sometimes no. > > On early but widely t= estable developement phase for drivers, especially > SD card drivers, ne= twork (including but not limited with WiFi) drivers > and disk controlle= rs, base is not a good place even for FreeBSD-native > drivers. > &g= t; This is because turnaround time for implememt (fix) / test / commit >= on base is usually take much longer days (or even months!) than in > po= rts. So recently, AFAIK, some drivers are first developed as > kmod port= s, and once stabilized, merged into main branch of src. > > What com= es in my mind is rtsx driver for Realtek SD card reader driver. Tomoaki, =    I see what you're saying and I agree completely. But, I think = this is pointing squarely at problem in the development paradigm for src co= mmitters. It should not take weeks or months to fix/test/commit/repeat in s= rc. It didn't used to be that way, so if it is now, then something has brok= en in the paradigm, and _that_ needs to be fixed.Fun fact: bectl would comp= letely fix the pkg delete issue. But I digress: rm -rf In the wrong spot al= so will kill base. It's a strange hill to die on. It also ignores common us= e cases, like wifibox, that make a system critically dependent on ports tha= t in simplwr times didn't happen...But some perspective on rtsx.  the = rtsx driver is an obscure edge case 1000 times less popular than the sdhci = driver. And even that is 1000x less popular than nvme. Given limited time a= nd lack of ability to buy the rtsx hardware easily, it's hard to justify us= ing my time for that driver when testing patches for other drivers is easie= r and benefits more people. That's why I passed over some of the changes th= ere, especially since there were big issues with that driver initially that= would have taken a lot of time to articulate. That is how I have prioritiz= ed my time on the thousands of fixes i have done for people, many the same = day. Using it as a posterchild for src being slow overstates the problems t= ypical patches have gwtting in.I have been trying to solve the actual, unde= rlying problems behind it: getting the pipeline flowing better through redu= ced friction for submissions (some good, but many lousy and it takes time t= o sort and you never know if a lot of feedback will produce a better outcom= e for any given problematic patch). Getting a deeper bench onboard and grow= ing aspects of our culture are also key areas needing help. I've had a hard= time getting others to help, assume ownership, follow through on promises,= etc. If you want to help fix things, it's helping me fix this problem. Fix= ing that increases the scarse developer resources and helps make it easier = to fix more issues. But 4 years in, it is a problem resistant to easy solut= ions.Warnet-DG  *  Dr. David G. Lawrence * * DG Labs   &nbs= p; Pave the road of life with opportunities.=20= --=-Uqe0AMNuwGRd2AX0vwOJ Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> Fun fact: bectl would completely fix the pkg delete i= ssue.

Does bectl(8) works with UFS filesystem?

I know that th= is is rhetorical question.

If properly installed FreeBSD can even ha= ve UFS Boot Environments:
- https://vermaden.wordpre= ss.com/2021/04/02/ufs-boot-environments/

But that is just workar= ound for the problem - not a solution.

Regards,
vermaden

<= br>

Temat: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD= Base System Feature
Data: 2025-08-09 13:17
Nadawca: "Warner Losh" &l= t;imp@bsdimp.com>
Adresat: "David G Lawrence" <dg@dglawrence.com&g= t;;
DW: "Tomoaki AOKI" <junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp>; "Michal Melou= n" <mmel@freebsd.org>; "FreeBSD Current" <freebsd-current@freebsd.= org>;





On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 4:13=E2=80= =AFAM David G Lawrence <dg@dglawrence.com> wrote:
<= blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 .8ex; border-left: 1px #ccc solid; paddin= g-left: 1ex;" class=3D"gmail_quote" data-mce-style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 .8ex; b= order-left: 1px #ccc solid; padding-left: 1ex;">> On Sat, 9 Aug 2025 09:= 08:53 +0200
> Michal Meloun <mmel@FreeBSD.org> wrote:
>=
> > On 8/9/2025 8:52 AM, David G Lawrence wrote:
> > = >> On 9 Aug 2025, at 07:29, David Greenman-Lawrence <dg@dglawrence.com> wrote:
> > >>>
= > > >>> FWIW, I do have an opinion on this: I think that "pk= g delete -af" is
> > >>> a useful thing that should not = destroy your base system. We should find
> > >>> a way t= o make that work as it always has
> > >>
> > >= > Today, it will destroy any kernel modules installed from packages, inc= luding those necessary for the display to work. It will destroy the ability= for WiFi to work if you???re using wifibox. There are a lot of other thing= s in ports that are essential to the system for some systems.
> >= >
> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0We can fix that, too. ...but d= estroying kernel modules doesn't mean your
> > > system doesn'= t work - it just means X11 won't work when you reboot - but then
> &= gt; > it wouldn't anyway because you deleted X11. But, here's the thing:= X11 didn't
> > > work when you first installed the base syste= m, either. And perhaps your
> > > Wifi didn't work out of the = box, either. So you have some work to do to
> > > get back bas= ic functionality - but you knew that when you did the
> > > "p= kg delete -af" in the first place.
> > >
> > > -= DG
> >
> > I cannot but agree wholeheartedly.. The act= ual situation with
> > pkg delete and pkgbase is (for me) simply = absurd.
> >
> > kmod in the ports is a different probl= em ??? it shows the inability of
> > FBSD developers to implemen= t these things on their own,=C2=A0 so this
> > solution=C2=A0 ha= s some problems.=C2=A0 And don't kill me, I fully understand that
>= > it's not possible , but that doesn't change the previous fact.
&g= t; >
> > Michal
>
> Sometimes yes, but sometim= es no.
>
> On early but widely testable developement phase f= or drivers, especially
> SD card drivers, network (including but not= limited with WiFi) drivers
> and disk controllers, base is not a go= od place even for FreeBSD-native
> drivers.
>
> This = is because turnaround time for implememt (fix) / test / commit
> on = base is usually take much longer days (or even months!) than in
> po= rts. So recently, AFAIK, some drivers are first developed as
> kmod = ports, and once stabilized, merged into main branch of src.
>
&= gt; What comes in my mind is rtsx driver for Realtek SD card reader driver.=

Tomoaki,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0I see what you're saying and I agr= ee completely. But, I think this is
pointing squarely at problem in the= development paradigm for src committers.
It should not take weeks or m= onths to fix/test/commit/repeat in src. It
didn't used to be that way, = so if it is now, then something has broken
in the paradigm, and _that_ = needs to be fixed.

=
Fun fact: bectl would completely fix the pkg delete issue= . But I digress: rm -rf In the wrong spot also will kill base. It's a stran= ge hill to die on. It also ignores common use cases, like wifibox, that mak= e a system critically dependent on ports that in simplwr times didn't happe= n...

But some perspectiv= e on rtsx.=C2=A0 the rtsx driver is an obscure edge case 1000 times less po= pular than the sdhci driver. And even that is 1000x less popular than nvme.= Given limited time and lack of ability to buy the rtsx hardware easily, it= 's hard to justify using my time for that driver when testing patches for o= ther drivers is easier and benefits more people. That's why I passed over s= ome of the changes there, especially since there were big issues with that = driver initially that would have taken a lot of time to articulate. That is= how I have prioritized my time on the thousands of fixes i have done for p= eople, many the same day. Using it as a posterchild for src being slow over= states the problems typical patches have gwtting in.

I have been trying to solve the actual, underl= ying problems behind it: getting the pipeline flowing better through reduce= d friction for submissions (some good, but many lousy and it takes time to = sort and you never know if a lot of feedback will produce a better outcome = for any given problematic patch). Getting a deeper bench onboard and growin= g aspects of our culture are also key areas needing help. I've had a hard t= ime getting others to help, assume ownership, follow through on promises, e= tc. If you want to help fix things, it's helping me fix this problem. Fixin= g that increases the scarse developer resources and helps make it easier to= fix more issues. But 4 years in, it is a problem resistant to easy solutio= ns.

Warnet

-DG

= =C2=A0*=C2=A0 Dr. David G. Lawrence
* * DG Labs
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pave = the road of life with opportunities.



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Sat, 09 Aug 2025 14:00:42 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <868qjt3f2m.fsf@ltc.des.dev> In-Reply-To: From: Kevin Oberman Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 14:00:26 -0700 X-Gm-Features: Ac12FXx5gtSZtkeIom4NrgtExud9S-5FqnIBD8SyZvON2B-blbug8wl9jncA02c Message-ID: Subject: Re: Unexpected result from "geli attach" attempt To: David Wolfskill , =?UTF-8?Q?Dag=2DErling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= , current@freebsd.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c6f8de063bf4fb34" X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.70 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.995]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[rkoberman@gmail.com,kob6558@gmail.com]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20230601]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROMTLD(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[rkoberman@gmail.com,kob6558@gmail.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[current@freebsd.org]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::1130:from]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bztbP5QlPz3MHN X-Spamd-Bar: --- --000000000000c6f8de063bf4fb34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 10:25=E2=80=AFAM David Wolfskill wrote: > On Fri, Aug 08, 2025 at 07:20:49PM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav wrote: > > David Wolfskill writes: > > > TL;DR: I attempted "/sbin/geli attach -k - /dev/ada0s4j"; result was: > > > geli: Invalid value for 'n' argument: Result too large > > > > This is a long-standing bug in sbin/geom/core/geom.c which was recently > > made worse by my changes to expand_number(3). It will get fixed within > > a couple of days, please be patient. > > .... > > OK; cool -- that's fine. It's just reassuring to note that it wasn't > "just me" -- or that I was hallucinating. :-} > > Thanks! > > Peace, > david > -- > David H. Wolfskill david@catwhisker.org > Of course firing the statistician will force the statistics to conform! > > See https://www.catwhisker.org/~david/publickey.gpg for my public key. > I was able to mount geil devices by adding -n 0 to the attach subcommand. >From geli(8), t looks like only 0 or 1 are valid responses' If you have only a single master key for the device, I believe '-n 0' is appropriate. It works for me. If you have a secondary master key, I suspect that you may need '-n 1'. Doesn't look like you should need to specify -n, as, by default, attach should try both. --=20 Kevin Oberman, Part time kid herder and retired Network Engineer E-mail: rkoberman@gmail.com PGP Fingerprint: D03FB98AFA78E3B78C1694B318AB39EF1B055683 --000000000000c6f8de063bf4fb34 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 10:25=E2= =80=AFAM David Wolfskill <david@= catwhisker.org> wrote:
On Fri, Au= g 08, 2025 at 07:20:49PM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav wrote:
> David Wolfskill <david@catwhisker.org> writes:
> > TL;DR: I attempted "/sbin/geli attach -k - /dev/ada0s4j"= ;; result was:
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0geli: Invalid value for 'n' argument: = Result too large
>
> This is a long-standing bug in sbin/geom/core/geom.c which was recentl= y
> made worse by my changes to expand_number(3).=C2=A0 It will get fixed = within
> a couple of days, please be patient.
> ....

OK; cool -- that's fine.=C2=A0 It's just reassuring to note that it= wasn't
"just me" -- or that I was hallucinating. :-}

Thanks!

Peace,
david
--
David H. Wolfskill=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 david@catwhisker.org
Of course firing the statistician will force the statistics to conform!

See https://www.catwhisker.org/~david/publickey.gpg for my public key.
I was able to mount geil devices by addin= g -n 0 to the attach subcommand. From geli(8), t looks like only 0 or 1 are= valid responses' If you have only a single master key for the=C2=A0dev= ice, I believe '-n 0' is appropriate. It works for me. If you have = a secondary master=C2=A0key, I suspect that you may need '-n 1'.

Doesn't look like you should need to s= pecify -n, as, by default,=C2=A0 attach should try both.=C2=A0
<= span class=3D"gmail_signature_prefix">--
--000000000000c6f8de063bf4fb34-- From nobody Sat Aug 9 22:26:34 2025 X-Original-To: current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzwVM34gvz64XtT for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 22:26:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ivy@freebsd.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [96.47.72.132]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "freefall.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzwVM0fNgz3WjZ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 22:26:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ivy@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754778395; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: 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Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: Dima Panov , Ian FREISLICH , FreeBSD Current References: <66330a2d-4f52-4cc8-b5f4-ec795687a0a9@gmail.com> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="q6mtNsRBZbqwZ31C" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: --q6mtNsRBZbqwZ31C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dima Panov: > ftp/curl also need some love to build with mase mit krb5 =20 > - LIBCURL_PC_REQUIRES_PRIVATE=3D"$LIBCURL_PC_REQUIRES_PRIVATE mit-k= rb5-gssapi" > +- LIBCURL_PC_REQUIRES_PRIVATE=3D"$LIBCURL_PC_REQUIRES_PRIVATE mit-k= rb5-gssapi" > ++ LIBCURL_PC_REQUIRES_PRIVATE=3D"$LIBCURL_PC_REQUIRES_PRIVATE" this should not be required with D51842 because we will install the MIT pkgconfig data in base. i think this is preferable to patching third-party source. with D51842 (src) and D51841 (ports) ftp/curl builds for me with base GSSAPI, and devel/git also builds with the curl dependency. --q6mtNsRBZbqwZ31C Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEABYKAB0WIQSyjTg96lp3RifySyn1nT63mIK/YAUCaJfLFgAKCRD1nT63mIK/ YEDPAPsEbkMdbh0tU/+u4yKyhM9zYWtlal8OrzmWyFI1xYGu7gD+KDY9Gw7oO5Lf F9cA4kQpx0skYlUQ2mwT6YbbZXIhRQs= =PF/5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --q6mtNsRBZbqwZ31C-- From nobody Sun Aug 10 00:18:45 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzyzt54c2z64l77; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 00:18:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from flo@smeets.xyz) Received: from mail-out.smeets.xyz (mail-out.smeets.xyz [88.99.165.53]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher 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02:18:45 +0200 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: HEADS-UP: pkgbase pkg upgrade breaks systems Re: after updating to latest, pkg base segfaults and leaves me unbootable Content-Language: en-US To: Dan Mahoney , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <582d802f-da93-415c-9dee-1f1f1beb1830@smeets.xyz> <614fc6f3-0bbd-47a0-8f7b-9ed907230aa3@smeets.xyz> From: Florian Smeets Autocrypt: addr=flo@smeets.xyz; keydata= xsFNBFpyBwsBEADLq0c46orEtbMn4SptX+VJxR1wB4YwaErZme1bqF4nZHIhlRNET22HsHdQ doagaB4uACq0Rj5kHcu614ZnnNkLPyCxWQATx+cbdiFO4/hfT8tAvKnBtiy3awKJ5uGCNO2E zJwXW6KwdDA8XPRySqN8m1yPl+dW0Cls+/vO/QL/6+YLMupmEpSvFxRzAZTQuKyX4+xl+dYI d24JiPd1yfCuDNOY3+OZ3QBMT00u/699N8lUWRtiTwaQMwAOww8r/26YM6/SgcgFuLH2E/CV 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breaks systems Re: after updating to latest, pkg base segfaults and leaves me unbootable Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Florian Smeets , Dan Mahoney References: <582d802f-da93-415c-9dee-1f1f1beb1830@smeets.xyz> <614fc6f3-0bbd-47a0-8f7b-9ed907230aa3@smeets.xyz> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="aa7qaBUKFKWgSemZ" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: --aa7qaBUKFKWgSemZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline thanks to Dan and Florian, i believe i've identified the bug here and i filed a pkg PR: https://github.com/freebsd/pkg/issues/2496 unfortunately i don't know enough about pkg to know what the right fix is, so this might need to wait until bapt is back to look at it. note that (as i think i mentioned earlier) this problem should not have broken anyone's systems: that's a separate issue which should be fixed soon. --aa7qaBUKFKWgSemZ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEABYKAB0WIQSyjTg96lp3RifySyn1nT63mIK/YAUCaJftbAAKCRD1nT63mIK/ YIC5AQDoMk9sd5kBB9dU9E/XiMKwXbPY4WR/JneiYpzsTG4utwD/QKapK8Swe8k1 nBq1fEMHwko2xH3EVnH0eX8CcnkbzgM= =X4a0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --aa7qaBUKFKWgSemZ-- From nobody Sun Aug 10 02:32:39 2025 X-Original-To: current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4c01yZ1hDxz64y0b for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 02:32:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yaneurabeya@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pj1-x102c.google.com (mail-pj1-x102c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher 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Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_5B6A4863-E7AA-415B-BCF7-22A067F7F7C6"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.700.81\)) Subject: Re: OpenSSL legacy provider is broken From: "Enji Cooper (yaneurabeya)" In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 19:32:39 -0700 Cc: FreeBSD Current , Pierre Pronchery Message-Id: References: To: Ian FREISLICH X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.700.81) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4c01yY6nb1z3x6h X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] --Apple-Mail=_5B6A4863-E7AA-415B-BCF7-22A067F7F7C6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Aug 9, 2025, at 7:08=E2=80=AFAM, Ian FREISLICH = wrote: >=20 > Hi >=20 > Previously this worked >=20 > [brane] /usr/ports # openssl list -providers -provider legacy > Providers: > legacy > name: OpenSSL Legacy Provider > version: 3.0.16 > status: active >=20 > Since the build last night, >=20 > [router] /usr/ports/net/freeradius3 # openssl list -providers = -provider legacy > list: unable to load provider legacy > Hint: use -provider-path option or OPENSSL_MODULES environment = variable. > 10B045DBE7340000:error:12800067:DSO support routines:dlfcn_load:could = not load the shared = library:/usr/src/crypto/openssl/crypto/dso/dso_dlfcn.c:118:filename(/usr/l= ib/ossl-modules/legacy.so): /usr/lib/ossl-modules/legacy.so: Undefined = symbol "ossl_kdf_pvk_functions" > 10B045DBE7340000:error:12800067:DSO support routines:DSO_load:could = not load the shared = library:/usr/src/crypto/openssl/crypto/dso/dso_lib.c:147: > 10B045DBE7340000:error:07880025:common libcrypto = routines:provider_init:reason(37):/usr/src/crypto/openssl/crypto/provider_= core.c:1019:name=3Dlegacy >=20 > and freeradius doesn't start because of this: >=20 > [router] /usr/ports/net/freeradius3 # radiusd -fX > FreeRADIUS Version 3.2.7 > ... > (TLS) Failed loading legacy provider >=20 > I haven't yet figured out what part of my EAP configuration needs the = legacy provider. It may be that EAP just needs a working legacy provider = because it looks like the EAP module unconditionally attempts to load = the provider and fails. --Apple-Mail=_5B6A4863-E7AA-415B-BCF7-22A067F7F7C6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEkHfexGRJ3gYRdA2gGpE5DjPsNJgFAmiYBMcACgkQGpE5DjPs NJiWdw/8CzEECAAWtuQsVIpljtOdXQHouTcxd60lH+VURY+8M17FWue0whB5nou9 apa/nRM6q0RJl/7orawDnkoJb9u1R8HVOPIqt+rjppwNoNmZucbMb07SFnpCyZK5 Qpjco8AlGonfwADrLVDjq0Y/Nd1/77EtKMuv/0vEsQZvgCbRShbnGIH1z0YSGx+S 9kVXaNrcU87ACkkuxqw5SIKhSt1aMH1z6VBwDGjxXEc+YNkh/+OacRWZQbz4Nf8j T+5QhwOi+mNXWciZa1nrB50ehSjVOqQfNMfi4iCQlH+s+tUf5qdn8bHmT2bzEkBu KobCJXazkZtzJEg+Qp718XN1XWjVTFd5Gpe4KBFfUHT0GxTSw2JGpuAg7EeNMKxd RPnCOKXElHwNnNs7u1qWAePspUNIXcp+32dtd8qQLu0uWiL/gAeySpzqX8ivDEuM IaDRBLbUJ/sSSGGn+d74NC2U6Fhnsy8Op8cRAxhkGnWP2gULCmmCKeZ4wYN1OHx0 VHJYuhUgHagk4WDao3jOL2HEl8IKSf6rmepTi+J/Wz0RAAvS3M4RvY87S6p7J0ZI qNokr5T4wGzfHDXOV1s2WCyjAPRVDI6or0N2I5278n7RA13+hzn8oKGd9/RvjcAg Tl5uPD0SIcEFe88LAJPB30h2VGLWvuSRPuv/PATuqV5zErP/168= =XcO7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_5B6A4863-E7AA-415B-BCF7-22A067F7F7C6-- From nobody Sun Aug 10 04:08:17 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4c044n23Tqz63dgZ for ; 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Sun, 10 Aug 2025 00:08:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2025 11:08:17 +0700 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: current amd64 snapshot 20250807 pkgbase installation seems broken To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <35666e4d-020f-451e-94a1-998295f034db@seiruote.it> Content-Language: en-US From: cyric@mm.st In-Reply-To: <35666e4d-020f-451e-94a1-998295f034db@seiruote.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.10 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[mm.st,none]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[mm.st:s=fm3,messagingengine.com:s=fm3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:103.168.172.128/27]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[103.168.172.158:from]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[mm.st]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[mm.st]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[mm.st:+,messagingengine.com:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_NO_DN(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:151847, ipnet:103.168.172.0/24, country:AU]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[messagingengine.com:dkim] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4c044m31pKz4654 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- tetrosalame wrote: > Hi current@, > > since last days churn about pros and cons of pkgbase, I downloaded > 20250807 amd64 snapshot to discover what's all this thing is about :) > It's been a while since I last used bsdinstall, I'm more a untar base > tarball guy. > BTW I chose pkgbase experimental installation, ZFS autoconf, set up > network (while here, how do I configure HTTP(S)_PROXY please? I think > that would be my next stopper...) and pkg didn't run. > Console says (ALT-F4): > ld-els.so.1: Shared object "libutil.so.9" not found, required by "pkg" Not really a snapshot problem, packages aren't rebuilt yet to utilize libutil.so.10 (same problem here). Once it's done, just use pkg-static. > 20250801 snapshot works as intended, but I'm stuck anyway as I can't > find a way to tell pkg to use my local proxy. > > Am I doing something wrong? P.S. https://pkg-status.freebsd.org/?all=1 says last main-amd64 build is still running since Aug 5, something broken here? From nobody Sun Aug 10 04:12:32 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4c049Z5z4Bz63fs7 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 04:12:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevans@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4c049Z3gB4z48w8 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 04:12:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevans@FreeBSD.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754799154; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=b0USwlXIuhYVeNEaa3X47NlvXGbRivDC9pU28HfnYE8=; b=grU1a9uc1UUDtBZFPQ7IDgfyMuc3T0VN6xFrnvTWl0wg5aqYB2yVB+R0gzdF1GVs30V5sp Zn4NbaYfe95SzKiRUAyUwuyS0Mk7QoXlFpVeJjW3uoZYbwec3cvLrGfNhA1lhCbHVIm3YB Ci1pROIfemM1IkjBmE/NQ0hkWjfKQfDE0Z+atMhGyF0HxLlgagzMUSgF7m4MMu6lzVctdD WxV7r6WMlxiBMwyLYqWYRbaqEasGulCqaTxv623u68VPQEFL7WclUiVU3/WjnU25M7o4er spttn42JZ1eWGBFVY/FqIWy+1BlZQIsQLLsGQbCdplmdWv5KRHLxUVUOyEhXqQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754799154; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=b0USwlXIuhYVeNEaa3X47NlvXGbRivDC9pU28HfnYE8=; b=vjt90tlt3HfGNj4EvUvarDqcPPXc0zWp4rm81dXknK4ExYeqcKV9eKWdmenHPHgkPoM2jV /iVfBp5Vf4yGGwPIQdNE6B0MNCFokNix134e7pwqK7MXvtcus58o0pUue/tpfTiBZ81gOS 74a0ZWXnLvyBgOvbWN+jsbygIJVznFDOA1swOQk4CiGrH+0yaBpQ/PU0trobaHhUeMLK/5 TvEtu0C7v0KzISTH6O4/7Tj0/gPvOZvocx3BasjOkZEC97vmmGOroWM0ZS1p95UzTAzi/L HfdNbH6JEC0eFPxGxk1SYZCLdEeL4TEszHoO+pCmEg/V6F67wURJmggoXcziiw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1754799154; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=LuM+oMBBbnywyPj8NjW+uEM43Q9WJnQmt8qZ6oN88BXJ04cdCiKkWeY8vE0eY/DVaNpgEJ hxmkDS37ULl30RD0AlnA/wwyI+FQTtxTn6pL5KDYEkCpNuJ9oqCF6YwShnOqk7xxk5df9X lZyA06yZFRrG/3tEvLmXG2SgtTOrDIJTCBgvZgA6G5i8lLmDnUQ2FfMkJweNwOFG2NeNHv yl+rNEA3fCqOmtiPHvfxX96j8gDVqTdAJnLuZbeuuzFe27D4RedvIX890c1Pnx1ljXfaEG txLoc+dE54z+VlbJvX1O4be1rhBTAzI1tTzZSL6LpwPxUXeAHwfEqG5JCrgHEA== Received: from [10.9.4.95] (unknown [209.182.120.176]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: kevans/mail) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4c049Z1P6pz9nG for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 04:12:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevans@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 23:12:32 -0500 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: current amd64 snapshot 20250807 pkgbase installation seems broken To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <35666e4d-020f-451e-94a1-998295f034db@seiruote.it> Content-Language: en-US From: Kyle Evans In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 8/9/25 23:08, cyric@mm.st wrote: > tetrosalame wrote: >> Hi current@, >> >> since last days churn about pros and cons of pkgbase, I downloaded >> 20250807 amd64 snapshot to discover what's all this thing is about :) >> It's been a while since I last used bsdinstall, I'm more a untar base >> tarball guy. >> BTW I chose pkgbase experimental installation, ZFS autoconf, set up >> network (while here, how do I configure HTTP(S)_PROXY please? I think >> that would be my next stopper...) and pkg didn't run. >> Console says (ALT-F4): >> ld-els.so.1: Shared object "libutil.so.9" not found, required by "pkg" > > Not really a snapshot problem, packages aren't rebuilt yet to utilize > libutil.so.10 (same problem here). Once it's done, just use pkg-static. > >> 20250801 snapshot works as intended, but I'm stuck anyway as I can't >> find a way to tell pkg to use my local proxy. >> >> Am I doing something wrong? > P.S. https://pkg-status.freebsd.org/?all=1 says last main-amd64 build is > still running since Aug 5, something broken here? > If you click on the bomb icon, it'll take you into the per-builder page that shows you what's going on -- it's still actively building, and still has some ~14k ports remaining to build. From nobody Sun Aug 10 06:06:06 2025 X-Original-To: current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4c06hf3qcbz63tYc for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 06:06:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from omta003.cacentral1.a.cloudfilter.net (omta001.cacentral1.a.cloudfilter.net [3.97.99.32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4c06hf1XzKz3SGc for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 06:06:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from shw-obgw-4001a.ext.cloudfilter.net ([10.228.9.142]) by cmsmtp with ESMTPS id klaMuZyXI9JM2kzC4uIvq9; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 06:06:08 +0000 Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.66.136.217]) by cmsmtp with ESMTPSA id kzC3u4O5YWX70kzC4uPOOX; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 06:06:08 +0000 X-Auth-User: cschuber X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.4 cv=d71WygjE c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=689836d0 a=h7br+8Ma+Xn9xscxy5znUg==:117 a=h7br+8Ma+Xn9xscxy5znUg==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=2OwXVqhp2XgA:10 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=EkcXrb_YAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=PXTPc3IUhEWRIvEs9g0A:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=LK5xJRSDVpKd5WXXoEvA:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy.cwsent.com [10.1.1.91]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D36F1747; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 23:06:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by slippy.cwsent.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id CD0DF147; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 23:06:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.9.0 11/07/2018 with nmh-1.8+dev Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: "Enji Cooper (yaneurabeya)" cc: Ian FREISLICH , FreeBSD Current , Pierre Pronchery Subject: Re: OpenSSL legacy provider is broken In-reply-to: References: Comments: In-reply-to "Enji Cooper (yaneurabeya)" message dated "Sat, 09 Aug 2025 19:32:39 -0700." List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2025 23:06:06 -0700 Message-Id: <20250810060606.CD0DF147@slippy.cwsent.com> X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4xfA6SQKzFcpGjyyxR/vV7reddjPqtwGVKos03oWEM2JXo+I3RgMhUk1Z/cqAfLBS1XvAuTxNRsPNLf6sq2iphbNX8gsm4ke/txaZTUQEAqyuKutmcPYNC y86Z34iClcTFNL6xF+DC0CbsA7FJZQeKXlZh9u2RZQnNxd5CUufPxjHHUoUzHe16jM5KmZv8gsIwa7HXszSlVt+ihWnevjmRL1K2VW5446+W7188bQHf2Oa0 yfhR+nPsgPjrWkkvGycJStaz14ROlOv4FUvdNimNkV+lt/REei0ZyVhNWe/vmQL2 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4c06hf1XzKz3SGc X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16509, ipnet:3.96.0.0/15, country:US] In message , "Enji Cooper (yane urabeya)" writes: > > --Apple-Mail=_5B6A4863-E7AA-415B-BCF7-22A067F7F7C6 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset=utf-8 > > > > On Aug 9, 2025, at 7:08=E2=80=AFAM, Ian FREISLICH = > wrote: > >=20 > > Hi > >=20 > > Previously this worked > >=20 > > [brane] /usr/ports # openssl list -providers -provider legacy > > Providers: > > legacy > > name: OpenSSL Legacy Provider > > version: 3.0.16 > > status: active > >=20 > > Since the build last night, > >=20 > > [router] /usr/ports/net/freeradius3 # openssl list -providers = > -provider legacy > > list: unable to load provider legacy > > Hint: use -provider-path option or OPENSSL_MODULES environment = > variable. > > 10B045DBE7340000:error:12800067:DSO support routines:dlfcn_load:could = > not load the shared = > library:/usr/src/crypto/openssl/crypto/dso/dso_dlfcn.c:118:filename(/usr/l= > ib/ossl-modules/legacy.so): /usr/lib/ossl-modules/legacy.so: Undefined = > symbol "ossl_kdf_pvk_functions" > > 10B045DBE7340000:error:12800067:DSO support routines:DSO_load:could = > not load the shared = > library:/usr/src/crypto/openssl/crypto/dso/dso_lib.c:147: > > 10B045DBE7340000:error:07880025:common libcrypto = > routines:provider_init:reason(37):/usr/src/crypto/openssl/crypto/provider_= > core.c:1019:name=3Dlegacy > >=20 > > and freeradius doesn't start because of this: > >=20 > > [router] /usr/ports/net/freeradius3 # radiusd -fX > > FreeRADIUS Version 3.2.7 > > ... > > (TLS) Failed loading legacy provider > >=20 > > I haven't yet figured out what part of my EAP configuration needs the = > legacy provider. It may be that EAP just needs a working legacy provider = > because it looks like the EAP module unconditionally attempts to load = > the provider and fails. This looks like it's due to MIT KRB5 in 15. The HEIMDAL option needs to be replaced with a BASE option and BASE should test for MIT KRB5 or HEIMDAL by looking at which kdc (kdc for Heimdal or krb5kdc for MIT) is installed. -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: https://FreeBSD.org NTP: Web: https://nwtime.org e**(i*pi)+1=0 From nobody Sun Aug 10 06:32:25 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4c07HF683Mz63x8r for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 06:32:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marklmi@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic306-19.consmr.mail.gq1.yahoo.com (sonic306-19.consmr.mail.gq1.yahoo.com [98.137.68.82]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4c07HD5bX3z3WFp for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 06:32:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marklmi@yahoo.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID bcb3b8d53bb4214c6368faddfdee9fe9; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 06:32:36 +0000 (UTC) From: Mark Millard Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.700.81\)) Subject: Example context needing use of hw.usb.usbhid.enable=0 : serial console keyboard input under Parallels (aarch64) Message-Id: Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 23:32:25 -0700 To: FreeBSD Current X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.700.81) References: X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com:dkim]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[98.137.68.82:from]; APPLE_MAILER_COMMON(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36647, ipnet:98.137.64.0/20, country:US]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[98.137.68.82:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4c07HD5bX3z3WFp X-Spamd-Bar: --- Until I added the line shown by: # grep hw.usb.usbhid.enable /boot/loader.conf hw.usb.usbhid.enable=3D0 I did not any more get: ugen1.3: at usbus1 ukbd0 on uhub1 ukbd0: on = usbus1 kbd1 at ukbd0 ukbd1 on uhub1 ukbd1: on = usbus1 running FreeBSD main under Parallels --but got instead: hcons0: on hidbus3 The input to the console window in Parallels did not work for the hidbus3 one. It may be that something else needs to be changed or reverted. I'm just noting the delta from the preexisting context that I'd previously established. With the line in place, it reverted back to what I'd previously established as a working context. =3D=3D=3D Mark Millard marklmi at yahoo.com From nobody Sun Aug 10 07:27:56 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4c08W568nvz643Hy for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 07:28:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tml@seiruote.it) Received: from smtpdh19-2.aruba.it (smtpdh19-2.aruba.it [62.149.155.149]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "pepi1sm-sfepd19.ad.aruba.it", Issuer "Actalis Organization Validated Server CA G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4c08W40RFLz3dN9 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 07:27:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tml@seiruote.it) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seiruote.it header.s=a1 header.b=XB0MFgcD; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tml@seiruote.it designates 62.149.155.149 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=tml@seiruote.it; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=seiruote.it Received: from [192.168.20.100] ([45.93.37.40]) by Aruba SMTP with ESMTPSA id l0TFuF8IFvoVFl0TFu4An9; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 09:27:57 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=seiruote.it; s=a1; t=1754810877; bh=yAZcxLjk01HIRxKVoZF+yIL9xb1JdRHNsJfVF9zAWk8=; h=Date:MIME-Version:Subject:To:From:Content-Type; b=XB0MFgcDNLZ30t9uQlWye6gtvc1/0rL7zMmFUJG2Ggu4JwDFiygj7oHvX9iuFd86V q3DyVBV3nvV8JnL9ckGcRtumqxx+zK+ICW979ZTU/ECHEe5lMiVJOUhrmmT2L64ZRH SGIVwCeJrw2mysNNvS/rD+wrdEO9FAKz5JYyyodB7ouH+xVgVwY2x1kXR5oFCCbUj+ cvG51nbRYP790kLpmVkqd1krHZN8aGE9m3eYHppCiefN8pKnCqbwOvxXILgF3l84ei K7z7cOGnyo0hldF2l3CelguzyxxQEI3yWw5oYDrlnVw3rKeiO5ZswNQCnW3yLME+rV PCNrG2dj78hBQ== Message-ID: Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2025 09:27:56 +0200 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: current amd64 snapshot 20250807 pkgbase installation seems broken To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <35666e4d-020f-451e-94a1-998295f034db@seiruote.it> Content-Language: it From: tetrosalame In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4xfNNpt+un+2zz08Ip8q/CTvfYO0/ICKjxM3mlm3SUjwxlFDJwRMqAJTkKGk1LRE7eXbDWSpf94j0uBWRgoqNBu/Xfxu5gyQHoeBUiqVAGCqjih14DVQcM K9vFP5qij9qV45wDr6SMPLnanhOBEdNZvJgGCMt1GbzeiFa1xEPXFmaxmL6G5Jul2HKuCoGunsbt6w== X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.80 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.999]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[seiruote.it,none]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.20)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seiruote.it:s=a1]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:62.149.155.0/24]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; ASN(0.00)[asn:31034, ipnet:62.149.128.0/19, country:IT]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[62.149.155.149:from]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[62.149.155.149:from]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seiruote.it:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4c08W40RFLz3dN9 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Il 10/08/2025 06:08, cyric@mm.st ha scritto: >> Console says (ALT-F4): >> ld-els.so.1: Shared object "libutil.so.9" not found, required by "pkg" > > Not really a snapshot problem, packages aren't rebuilt yet to utilize > libutil.so.10 (same problem here). Once it's done, just use pkg-static. Thank you for your reply. Maybe I failed to explain my problem, or I just misunderstood you: I meant that the pkg binary shipped with installation media couldn't run and so failed to add base packages. I don't think that tinkering with pkg-static during the first installation of the OS is right. f. From nobody Sun Aug 10 08:27:18 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4c09qs3BvDz648Wm for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 08:27:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.pri.ee) Received: from mail.ketas.si.pri.ee (d004-fea2-0bff-021e-13e8-8437-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee [IPv6:2001:7d0:8437:13e8:21e:bff:fea2:d004]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4c09qq74p3z3l6g for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 08:27:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.pri.ee) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=ketas.si.pri.ee header.s=ketas-si-pri-ee-20240416002854-4096 header.b="j/KPHbr4"; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.pri.ee designates 2001:7d0:8437:13e8:21e:bff:fea2:d004 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.pri.ee; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=ketas.si.pri.ee X-Original-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=ketas.si.pri.ee; s=ketas-si-pri-ee-20240416002854-4096; t=1754814442; bh=pQSedWm87NVLIf40iGTVzNERIm0QjD/bMGXlRzex6lc=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=j/KPHbr4TLUjqNyGa7j8nUhEnvBiTijv5jI3gN2nf6UZchIHupk7G+Jazf6XnjTwe ZDGoFvSfcx8QNI0fT3z++7HJ9yionRjTdqkQtSEoiXHnKz2nuq1rF7GtdC6btQg/qI mOoPGhAcskuRfbigtEuuRXt/JvQG4+V3clLteVN+wuYz3Rwas895TmUp5v/00BrQd/ 8UYotQVzqvgg5kW+AB1Zd3VV8yu75po0NSzJW5bTKVSvYNwBVBpAfzwsEqSk4m+WYQ poIfbPEfHpyOyxW8CMB6IrtSfr0Sni5rVGWQr7H4Qe6tz7aZULRQO2DyHj7f1tWsb8 qqm/inExvKm/nX400LmVdK4DnoYauYFZE9VScYAINsV4Sh94Iu5lTYe+2YlhO6pAeK j7E4LvK4Q+h7KVMXDo+nNjrpiB7gQzlKgc7kLO8SdpJrtrNmsrPxGDySChSBcAInn9 vP0hOCO6NkoiwyrZPjGZ6OBrCuVThlF3msdLR+q4bl89Z5QHSTEeYBhLORc5xVBIFS 7qIOGf9tYnoKOlTl1NLAmaBDh/0DFUtoqIY0X/Qj7kcQy9TQCaKMZslkLdMFh83F7c SMHZtHtpnDlK+Uk42NeK4WKlQmT720bQcxuQ04jCQJzipIst/ebK+7BFlLpFAZuEbj w2osR3OGNziLmjwvN//+8CFw= X-Original-To: dg@dglawrence.com Received: from [IPv6:::1] (0115-0000-0000-0000-13c8-8437-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee [IPv6:2001:7d0:8437:13c8::115]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail.ketas.si.pri.ee (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 74D2C5BBBC1; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 11:27:21 +0300 (EEST) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2025 11:27:18 +0300 From: Sulev-Madis Silber To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, David Greenman-Lawrence Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: <20250809062925.GN26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> References: <20250808.091053.1322595805169591390.sthaug@nethelp.no> <86h5yi43kp.fsf@ltc.des.dev> <2F323B4C-DA2E-47FF-A8E9-FB515B5D446D@ketas.si.pri.ee> <20250809062925.GN26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> Message-ID: <8228BE9F-3F1D-479E-AF2A-18B29BB28757@ketas.si.pri.ee> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.78 / 15.00]; HFILTER_HOSTNAME_5(3.00)[d004-fea2-0bff-021e-13e8-8437-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.982]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[ketas.si.pri.ee,reject]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2001:7d0:8437:1300::/56]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[ketas.si.pri.ee:s=ketas-si-pri-ee-20240416002854-4096]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.20)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; ASN(0.00)[asn:3249, ipnet:2001:7d0::/32, country:EE]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[ketas.si.pri.ee:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4c09qq74p3z3l6g X-Spamd-Bar: / On August 9, 2025 9:29:25 AM GMT+03:00, David Greenman-Lawrence wrote: >> i think vermadden actually "screamed" because this turned into kind of = a "desbsd" discussion=2E isn't "vmdbsd" either=2E is, well, "free" bsd, fun= nily >>=20 >> before this turns into complete virtual fistfight=2E=2E=2E >>=20 >> who has authority on this os anyway? >>=20 >> i already once mentioned elsewhere that not much goes on in fbsd=2E as = compared to eg, ff=2E i consider mozilla having gone past "user is our frie= nd approach" lately=2E unfortunately without users, projects become meaning= less >>=20 >> but here? >>=20 >> who has, like, powers? is it: >>=20 >> old devs who have write access to src repo? >> new devs who have write access to src repo? >> currently elected core? >> any of previous core? >> any original guys like mckusick? >> big companies? >> small companies? >> sysadmins? >> users? >> random hackers? >> sunday fbsd users? >> the foundation? >> any other known guys? >> or i mean gals, we have those too, tho i only recall one once had fight= s over inclusion problems which i don't mind of who wrote the code >> any nation state? >> who else? > > In the mid 1990s, for a short time, it would have been me - David Gree= nman >as FreeBSD "Principal Architect"=2E I didn't wear that hat very long, bec= ause >something not too dissimilar to this came up and I tried to find a compro= mise >solution that neither party liked=2E It was a nightmare and ultimately I = was >blamed for it=2E I realized that an authority, at least within a single >person, was not the right way to resolve these things, so I voluntarily >resigned the position=2E > > You've said a lot of interesting things, and I apologize for trimming >your message for brevity=2E If others want to selectively respond to that= , >then they should quote you directly=2E > > FWIW, I do have an opinion on this: I think that "pkg delete -af" is >a useful thing that should not destroy your base system=2E We should find >a way to make that work as it always has - to restore a system to its >base without destroying it=2E Now, how to do that? Well, one way is the >separate pkgbase=2E Another is to have some way to flag or protect the >base packages so that they are not included in this instance - make >them immutable somehow=2E It just doesn't make sense to destroy the runni= ng >system no matter how you slice it=2E > >-DG > > * Dr=2E David G=2E Lawrence >* * DG Labs > Pave the road of life with opportunities=2E > =2E=2E=2E to be honest, i never expected "bsd (grand)fathers" to come out = to this =2E=2E=2E the ones i didn't even know existed=2E it's a, ehm, naturally vanishing po= ol anyway sometimes the youngers go away as well=2E mean permanently=2E some might m= ove to other projects too=2E both cases are sad funnily, this os has been around for so long that there are several genera= tions of people here now! perhaps 2-3 g and that's a good thing, isn't it? the os, and it's descendants are still = here and being used=2E and we have fights too=2E even that is a kind of sig= n=2E because it would be much worse if nobody would care anymore=2E then th= e os is dead i'm here for slow pace and no changes=2E it's funny because that fits with= my personality as well i mean, have you heard what cursewords people have for bsds? never heard o= f unstable=2E no standards=2E etc=2E never heard of any this=2E however, th= ey could say=2E too slow=2E no hw support=2E etc sometimes people move away to linux due this=2E sometimes they come back f= or stability the "os wars" are weird to me as well=2E they all have pros and cons=2E probably i have nothing else to say anymore From nobody Sun Aug 10 08:30:31 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4c09vG29wKz648q3; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 08:30:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from truckman@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4c09vG1RZ8z3lnC; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 08:30:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from truckman@FreeBSD.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754814634; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=/ugQ7XAv3eLIhWcWQdi0geNUTyRYuvP/HFxhsYV5HVQ=; b=VKBbAe4wa9bDeUgdCz9Lx9h8v/ctJk7meLUXF/8jc2qCzWrvHp1oFYYw+hbH2blOV5ya6e FbT1+rItV9vY1NSGCfPNB3x4nD+iJ/4aYejDhTIAJQy4hy+Ulw8ubABUr1I+wN3xJ2DHST tKbrWNG+hcymlCQ7BcEtJOh1rxqYEacCF5nl3CStyF1Ie98ivzfJ1+at5q559TJ6patIBz 79rjHxGlSjzUZ0tVM4JzbSZwAbi1A+m1sCcgn52TamKxWaMi2KgT73CgEo6vTKoHSKxXQC 2FyuAwzYLx/Ljw3AvBAi3DX9hzRnAOOHAUNndQRu0RJy7w0XRcldMdR7yXI4Jg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754814634; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=/ugQ7XAv3eLIhWcWQdi0geNUTyRYuvP/HFxhsYV5HVQ=; b=EGL1j/cHhF+EMrHmZuq7QBntquFw/pwvS4YbSt6JWjtIg9WxDRE987NOyY1LWv0VAjZvur 9C16OX1Y+YXu+MlBLMqdhQnG3C5YnLLe81dRTU0O3Uw64ZHwY6lPaLpcK9zLjvV70M/Ytq Wil8UdA/TjIm8JCEhuAM97BHizfMn8OXFS84B6D9rjvmZ/aYIiVAMUy2wS+OXAO5X565hU s0Z6g0VF1HRDUTB3T2WzPiIljlPFiaO8KF7J0jc7OUT02faeCkItWUIaGJMCpiIO14Dh62 jhbm3g1AIVv10d/r6GIex8L0nGODsxa19KfUbbrDienE68BzPrZGnEqiaOyaEg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1754814634; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=G3iCtO33VCN0urUuDhSFHvXtCjRRthBljvNGmO4Mmr9NapRFWYXrth7fgmKAY4s5mBjbWZ 0FpjCWWMotymcta8HyKQyr4ofDxWmoHoaQcI0snxrbVwM133kuwMjGiKlfoDwg0GMyWcQB 6tfMgQUhgHGSWtfXkC4Wtmu+9oEpLz2MwntHYFnU2BrYLlbtyzr6yeGGdja8WbEvTGF/5g EhSi9CYptAbG95wD8MheA7Pd2YbdzfjyMfDa9lIzEtITpM5JNAvI2E45ZXXHaFWR0HVKCc XaRgHNBJoll+cXOYwA3M/I71tAgvU4AfJHKCBNVFTAZF2lfavsm+N3rVYOLJng== Received: from mousie.catspoiler.org (unknown [76.212.85.177]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: truckman) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4c09vF2MW5zFMS; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 08:30:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from truckman@FreeBSD.org) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2025 01:30:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Lewis Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature To: Helge Oldach cc: Brandon Allbery , DutchDaemon@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <202508081619.578GJTKR028195@mp80.oldach.net> Message-ID: References: from Brandon Allbery at "8 Aug 2025 11:44:26" <202508081619.578GJTKR028195@mp80.oldach.net> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-Disposition: INLINE On 8 Aug, Helge Oldach wrote: > Brandon Allbery wrote on Fri, 08 Aug 2025 17:44:26 +0200 (CEST): >> As stated earlier in the thread: embedded hardware which wants as minimal a >> base system as they can get away with. The flip side of the >> all-encompassing base system is that it's *big*. And grown considerably >> since the early days, making the early-days management of base a problem >> now. > > Traditional tweaking of make.conf works almost as well. We have that > knob for low-end gear already; I know of several users happy with that > approach and not seeking a better (?) one. That works, but pretty much requires that you to do source upgrades. That is time consuming if you have a bunch of customized VMs to maintain, and is problematic if the target is small and low peformance. I recently retired an old single-core i386 machine with only 256 MB of RAM. It was still powerful enough for its daily work, but too difficult maintain. I have no idea how long it would take for buildworld. I didn't have another machine running the same OS release, and its network connectivity wasn't suitable for NFS mounting /usr/obj. What I did was set up a VM with that release on a host running -CURRENT. tweak src.conf on the VM to what I desired, and then do "make release". Then I fed the release artifacts to the scripts that generate the files for binary updates and uploaded those to a web server. Then I could run freebsd-update to update the target machine. This is not compatible with applying security fixes in a timely manner. > As long as building from source is still supported, it'll be fine. That's what I do with my -STABLE and -CURRENT machines. 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 0ed03419cf32e1279559bd084d3fc9c3; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 08:44:21 +0000 (UTC) From: Mark Millard Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.700.81\)) Subject: Re: current amd64 snapshot 20250807 pkgbase installation seems broken Message-Id: Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2025 01:44:10 -0700 To: tml@seiruote.it, FreeBSD Current X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.700.81) References: X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.997]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com:dkim]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36647, ipnet:98.137.64.0/20, country:US]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; APPLE_MAILER_COMMON(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[98.137.65.32:from]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[98.137.65.32:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4c0BCG11QKz3q85 X-Spamd-Bar: --- tetrosalame wrote on Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2025 07:27:56 UTC : > Il 10/08/2025 06:08, cyric@mm.st ha scritto: > >> Console says (ALT-F4): > >> ld-els.so.1: Shared object "libutil.so.9" not found, required by = "pkg" > >=20 > > Not really a snapshot problem, packages aren't rebuilt yet to = utilize > > libutil.so.10 (same problem here). Once it's done, just use = pkg-static. >=20 > Thank you for your reply. > Maybe I failed to explain my problem, or I just misunderstood you: I=20= > meant that the pkg binary shipped with installation media couldn't run=20= > and so failed to add base packages. > I don't think that tinkering with pkg-static during the first=20 > installation of the OS is right. The 'pkg' involved came from a FreeBSD port-package distribution server. Those are/were not providing packages that are/were based on libutil.so.10 yet but main has progressed to use/require libutil.so.10 . libssl.so.* and libcrypto.so.* also have such issues: # ldd /usr/local/sbin/pkg | grep "not found" libutil.so.9 =3D> not found (0) libssl.so.30 =3D> not found (0) libcrypto.so.30 =3D> not found (0) # ls -lodT /lib/libutil.so.* /usr/lib/libssl.so.* /lib/libcrypto.so.* -r--r--r-- 1 root wheel uarch 6299824 Aug 9 07:04:07 2025 = /lib/libcrypto.so.35 -r--r--r-- 1 root wheel uarch 88328 Aug 9 13:33:53 2025 = /lib/libutil.so.10 -r--r--r-- 1 root wheel uarch 1045168 Aug 9 07:04:07 2025 = /usr/lib/libssl.so.35 It takes a while for poudriere jail worlds on the official port-package builders to be a compatible vintage. The current problems, such as zfs panics, will tend to delay having an overall combination that works. In my context I was able to use pkg-static for what I needed to do. It does not use the external libraries that are in question here. I'll note that the bootstrap pkg that is part of the system build (not a port-package build) is up to date, no "not found" indicated below and all 3 above have the new numbers: # ldd /usr/sbin/pkg=20 /usr/sbin/pkg: libarchive.so.7 =3D> /usr/lib/libarchive.so.7 (0xaec0fa7f000) libfetch.so.6 =3D> /usr/lib/libfetch.so.6 (0xaec10988000) libprivateucl.so.1 =3D> /usr/lib/libprivateucl.so.1 = (0xaec10fdd000) libcrypto.so.35 =3D> /lib/libcrypto.so.35 (0xaec11400000) libssl.so.35 =3D> /usr/lib/libssl.so.35 (0xaec12129000) libutil.so.10 =3D> /lib/libutil.so.10 (0xaec131be000) libmd.so.7 =3D> /lib/libmd.so.7 (0xaec1351c000) libc.so.7 =3D> /lib/libc.so.7 (0xaec14465000) libz.so.6 =3D> /lib/libz.so.6 (0xaec15632000) libbz2.so.4 =3D> /usr/lib/libbz2.so.4 (0xaec1624c000) liblzma.so.5 =3D> /usr/lib/liblzma.so.5 (0xaec17179000) libbsdxml.so.4 =3D> /lib/libbsdxml.so.4 (0xaec173a2000) libprivatezstd.so.5 =3D> /usr/lib/libprivatezstd.so.5 = (0xaec17667000) libm.so.5 =3D> /lib/libm.so.5 (0xaec184ac000) libthr.so.3 =3D> /lib/libthr.so.3 (0xaec0eeba000) libsys.so.7 =3D> /lib/libsys.so.7 (0xaec197fe000) [vdso] (0xaec0dad5000) =3D=3D=3D Mark Millard marklmi at yahoo.com From nobody Sun Aug 10 09:04:14 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4c0BfB6hVPz64CrQ for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 09:04:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tml@seiruote.it) Received: from smtpcmd13147.aruba.it (smtpcmd13147.aruba.it [62.149.156.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "pepi1sm-sfepd13.ad.aruba.it", Issuer "Actalis Organization Validated Server CA G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4c0Bf90dJtz3syY for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 09:04:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tml@seiruote.it) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seiruote.it header.s=a1 header.b="nk/8Hz7s"; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tml@seiruote.it designates 62.149.156.147 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=tml@seiruote.it; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=seiruote.it Received: from [192.168.20.100] ([45.93.37.40]) by Aruba SMTP with ESMTPSA id l1yPuUASW6z5Zl1yQuV2Al; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 11:04:14 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=seiruote.it; s=a1; t=1754816654; bh=OEQYl+pSN943zTD4fhN8VUYT6SQHVWXFqn5jTdzg0x8=; h=Date:MIME-Version:From:Subject:To:Content-Type; b=nk/8Hz7sCkcAKmx9teKrN/BcPejC9wpr3FB6G1p6f6JV+VMdAfIHyhWX9w4cNe4N5 io4eiE+A3ADXAuUXbJhijHeSKP4xGsi06a8ZlRnM9nAL5gqAJLiieG15eU3shyKTpv xKfP8SaUbrLeQL+D9pD23D44GpHILrmLdgBMIo8IcybhPyaluCi3SgJw5ThGxxkBKT Ny58fhhL3jd08tPm5nbGKsXqz/EYN1I/kJfhoWqBls0oSpv2u9Y7z+ay9GxFcs0ZVp S/P++LZ21dNDlAIw42sZ6K2qetesTgRLORxBL0nQ45ayKK34di8YCc1v4aAVydYOi4 tnpOimsqygGEA== Message-ID: <20d2cb01-409d-4af9-bf45-c35c16d84b29@seiruote.it> Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2025 11:04:14 +0200 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird From: tml@seiruote.it Subject: Re: current amd64 snapshot 20250807 pkgbase installation seems broken To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: Content-Language: it In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4xfBe6BRX8MU32zU3kQwaFHCnDS9lehiQ6Ew67GWUDfZK74pYCgZSVeCs3Wem9gqGQyCY/P6gN98bjq8FWMI2GTDWZVNhR7LmaoLKe/RbJSwBx3nUcjePK PdEBKImcsgEbRIyDimTfjFjI0zOV+TsG6904IzbQVCNJWYrG1zsHM0TnlkTpzQtk7LWkiN4zEeJs3Q== X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.80 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[seiruote.it,none]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.20)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:62.149.156.0/24]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seiruote.it:s=a1]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; FROM_NO_DN(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[62.149.156.147:from]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:31034, ipnet:62.149.128.0/19, country:IT]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[62.149.156.147:from]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seiruote.it:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4c0Bf90dJtz3syY X-Spamd-Bar: --- Il 10/08/2025 10:44, Mark Millard ha scritto: > The 'pkg' involved came from a FreeBSD port-package > distribution server. Those are/were not providing > packages that are/were based on libutil.so.10 yet > but main has progressed to use/require libutil.so.10 . [...] > It takes a while for poudriere jail worlds on > the official port-package builders to be a > compatible vintage. The current problems, > such as zfs panics, will tend to delay > having an overall combination that works. Hi Mark, thank you for your detailed explaination, I got the problem now. 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID c03290ba01670e0d92635c843aa1dcf8; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 09:21:57 +0000 (UTC) From: Mark Millard Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.700.81\)) Subject: Re: current amd64 snapshot 20250807 pkgbase installation seems broken Message-Id: <8327D8AA-12C0-43E2-A9F2-B1197965F5A1@yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2025 02:21:46 -0700 To: Kyle Evans , FreeBSD Current X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.700.81) References: <8327D8AA-12C0-43E2-A9F2-B1197965F5A1.ref@yahoo.com> X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.99 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.994]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36647, ipnet:98.137.64.0/20, country:US]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com:dkim]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; APPLE_MAILER_COMMON(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[98.137.65.82:from]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[98.137.65.82:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4c0C2b4dSRz3xGY X-Spamd-Bar: --- Kyle Evans wrote on Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2025 04:12:32 UTC : > On 8/9/25 23:08, cyric@mm.st wrote: > > tetrosalame wrote: > >> Hi current@, > >> > >> since last days churn about pros and cons of pkgbase, I downloaded > >> 20250807 amd64 snapshot to discover what's all this thing is about = :) > >> It's been a while since I last used bsdinstall, I'm more a untar = base > >> tarball guy. > >> BTW I chose pkgbase experimental installation, ZFS autoconf, set up > >> network (while here, how do I configure HTTP(S)_PROXY please? I = think > >> that would be my next stopper...) and pkg didn't run. > >> Console says (ALT-F4): > >> ld-els.so.1: Shared object "libutil.so.9" not found, required by = "pkg" > >=20 > > Not really a snapshot problem, packages aren't rebuilt yet to = utilize > > libutil.so.10 (same problem here). Once it's done, just use = pkg-static. > >=20 > >> 20250801 snapshot works as intended, but I'm stuck anyway as I = can't > >> find a way to tell pkg to use my local proxy. > >> > >> Am I doing something wrong? > > P.S. https://pkg-status.freebsd.org/?all=3D1 says last main-amd64 = build is > > still running since Aug 5, something broken here? > >=20 >=20 > If you click on the bomb icon, it'll take you into the per-builder = page=20 > that shows you what's going on -- it's still actively building, and > still has some ~14k ports remaining to build. beefy18's (main-amd64's port-package builder) is currently based on: Host OSVERSION: 1500052 Jail OSVERSION: 1500056 from back on 2025-Aug-05. But: libcrypto.so .35 (which is needed for main = now) is from 2025-Aug-07 in its Makefile. Also: libssl.so .35 (which is needed for main now) = is from 2025-Aug-07 in its Makefile. So /usr/local/sbin/pkg will still depend on libssl.so.30 and libcrypto.so.30 when the next main-amd64 port-pacakge updates are distributed. (libutil.so .10 is older: it is in the 2025-Aug-02 = Makefile.) So pkg will still not be working for main when the current beefy18 build completes and is distributed, as understand things. =3D=3D=3D Mark Millard marklmi at yahoo.com From nobody Sun Aug 10 09:33:05 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4c0CHk3xHVz64HBG for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 09:33:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4c0CHk21xSz40Zj; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 09:33:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754818402; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=F/G+sZGcZSq+mNxKWal14RT5pn5h4wESr2gej5+nUm4=; b=TzhS70+5h4gvTdgba4EB5Utdv5yVpWKYXQxvgn5S9tH+MHD/XJE11t0+hNsMiqoiHR0y5U M3A31a/pOFhdu6U53qsGeLKBfr0H1k0qSqcH0rXKna/22NqkiDTax5Au3pzAvU083fTjH2 pM14vUYvXEYI0N7JzSuSYcOcZOwP0xkLzlztMi/wqQo11gYIpkXRM/oOd0qPlDfBLcUTVa jGlQOPSs6u2BohyoFiAiolFmbWTBBEjlp3lSZMqu1spUUCEHommt8WIVlVPhBhMEoyeIRI L8sGd/kwJ/wlp4rkPe48EcsUJyHHF8GNBz3gnNmgBTNPdBkh1NQyzn1wwA8aoQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754818402; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=F/G+sZGcZSq+mNxKWal14RT5pn5h4wESr2gej5+nUm4=; b=aNrkVJxcAiYstmHbLZGq+HG+GU6Yf7mIPkMB7aqu4ijc70MXtOcqJYZXRTKhvWlRarqvbe i5HPxnUL8R1NyNPyUqlMmpM6szr+UJEVzImZvCqr1MHTmeKyzkcmp2jXZ7cxWtYec17XLY EM+nHYUunqv4g6vREaAf42fzokpawT2SMI2MJs1RSOF2XsFYh3XffVWjk2yFsSrDb/HxYu WYXcArVHA59QJFKHkDfhh1MqprhU9yVOKyqJiusOZx402RoZQos/GSdYjW6KhwTncPPU2s 2PkM5n4gMRg+9U3J8rIwQp8AeJ2ieCnejYtwfSlYkRDV1VtqonMqCnJI/BSFpg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1754818402; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=wmXoFn5ZnoFoJKUj1xShr6DbuR7znDPiBrZfwV8sfHXakm7FfUZfdRWq0HtSo1pDO2uSvQ uORmYfoYqDBlpcq+j+kPNlXUhn3zwcgoplkZfsSeSuqsf1VXwtoIZNjMbjGLh0R4xljPt3 txT03tfRLNxdJuT+mAFXaIUAIcdb+rx8RxTjQAqMcGBFk1E3XPP6iRYr9qLDy9HkJ67GpO F10EBHJPqvwkvXvqSJDSVqY+Ho+4ZNfuwoUTqhlqa/SSOs6VzXGIYPLTzWrNHdNQcxthel F85Nb7ECXZs05DhD1r0hA/uK/vYVXXy25ph/KLBB8X9aZi5KKu2CBL2wj+Yhog== Received: from smtp.theravensnest.org (smtp.theravensnest.org [45.77.103.195]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: theraven) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4c0CHk1bFhzHXp; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 09:33:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtpclient.apple (host86-143-41-189.range86-143.btcentralplus.com [86.143.41.189]) by smtp.theravensnest.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 647A0BE4; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 10:33:21 +0100 (BST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3776.700.51.11.1\)) Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature From: David Chisnall In-Reply-To: <20250809224836.f7207c3be3fbc8e0fd97f856@dec.sakura.ne.jp> Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2025 10:33:05 +0100 Cc: David G Lawrence , Warner Losh , Michal Meloun , FreeBSD Current Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <558632AE-5331-4339-A979-BA6F9B9C0840@FreeBSD.org> References: <20250809062925.GN26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> <929543B2-633E-44B5-B6F6-F292CCEADAB3@freebsd.org> <20250809065247.GO26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> <96820ff6-bdb0-4d25-ad78-502e30b7e479@FreeBSD.org> <20250809185418.7d272536dd5862d0bdfd39c2@dec.sakura.ne.jp> <20250809101145.GS26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> <20250809114244.GU26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> <20250809224836.f7207c3be3fbc8e0fd97f856@dec.sakura.ne.jp> To: Tomoaki AOKI X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3776.700.51.11.1) On 9 Aug 2025, at 14:48, Tomoaki AOKI wrote: >=20 > As Vermaden replied to different thread of this topic, his issue > seems to be "in jail". IIUC, he attempted to deinstall everything > installed PkgPkg (in contrast with PkgBase) keeping PkgBase world > in the jail intact, but result was everything including PkgBase > in the jail was deinstalled and made the jail unkillable. > And stating there should be kinda "safety net" for such a case. It=E2=80=99s worth noting that this is precisely the kind of thing that = the OCI model avoids entirely. You don=E2=80=99t *upgrade* a container, = you create container images from a description, you create container = instances from images. The issue of uninstalling things in a container = never arises, because you simply destroy the container and create a new = one and import persistent data as volumes. dch@, dfr@, and others have done phenomenal work to enable jails as the = isolation mechanism for OCI containers and pkgbase is a key part of = making this useful. 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Work on a FIDO/U2F driver and moused(8) is in progress. The default is being switched now so that we can find and fix any additional issues prior to FreeBSD 15.0. To revert to the previous USB HID driver behavior, set the loader tunable hw.usb.usbhid.enable=3D0. ``` In my context, on a laptop, I need to use `tunable hw.usb.usbhid.enable=3D0= ` to get console mouse working. There are some moused changes to support usbhid as work in progress. Cheers, Mark Millard escreveu (domingo, 10/08/2025 =C3=A0(s) 07= :33): > Until I added the line shown by: > > # grep hw.usb.usbhid.enable /boot/loader.conf > hw.usb.usbhid.enable=3D0 > > I did not any more get: > > ugen1.3: at usbus1 > ukbd0 on uhub1 > ukbd0: on > usbus1 > kbd1 at ukbd0 > ukbd1 on uhub1 > ukbd1: on > usbus1 > > running FreeBSD main under Parallels --but got instead: > > hcons0: on hidbus3 > > The input to the console window in Parallels > did not work for the hidbus3 one. > > It may be that something else needs to be changed > or reverted. I'm just noting the delta from the > preexisting context that I'd previously > established. > > With the line in place, it reverted back to > what I'd previously established as a working > context. > > > =3D=3D=3D > Mark Millard > marklmi at yahoo.com > > > --=20 Nuno Teixeira FreeBSD UNIX: Web: https://FreeBSD.org --000000000000331df1063c00d321 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Mark,

Not sure if I= understood correctly but lets take a look at UPDATING entry:
```
20250730:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The usbhid(4) U= SB HID driver is now enabled by default, and will be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 used in preference to other USB HID drivers like ukbd(4), ums(4)= , and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 uhid(4).=C2=A0 Work on a FIDO/U2F driv= er and moused(8) is in progress.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The default= is being switched now so that we can find and fix any
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 additional issues prior to FreeBSD 15.0.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 To revert to the previous USB HID driver behavior, set the lo= ader
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 tunable hw.usb.usbhid.enable=3D0.
``= `

In my context, on a laptop, I need to use `tunable hw.usb.us= bhid.enable=3D0` to get console mouse working.
There are some mous= ed changes to support usbhid as work in progress.

Cheers,
Mark Millard <mark= lmi@yahoo.com> escreveu (domingo, 10/08/2025 =C3=A0(s) 07:33):
Until I added the lin= e shown by:

# grep hw.usb.usbhid.enable /boot/loader.conf
hw.usb.usbhid.enable=3D0

I did not any more get:

ugen1.3: <Parallels Virtual Keyboard> at usbus1
ukbd0 on uhub1
ukbd0: <Parallels Virtual Keyboard, class 0/0, rev 3.00/1.10, addr 2>= on usbus1
kbd1 at ukbd0
ukbd1 on uhub1
ukbd1: <Parallels Virtual Keyboard, class 0/0, rev 3.00/1.10, addr 2>= on usbus1

running FreeBSD main under Parallels --but got instead:

hcons0: <Parallels Virtual Keyboard Consumer Control> on hidbus3

The input to the console window in Parallels
did not work for the hidbus3 one.

It may be that something else needs to be changed
or reverted. I'm just noting the delta from the
preexisting context that I'd previously
established.

With the line in place, it reverted back to
what I'd previously established as a working
context.


=3D=3D=3D
Mark Millard
marklmi at yahoo.com




--
Nuno Teixeira
=
FreeBSD UNIX:=C2=A0 <eduardo@FreeBSD.org>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Web:=C2=A0 https://Fr= eeBSD.org
--000000000000331df1063c00d321-- From nobody Sun Aug 10 11:32:55 2025 X-Original-To: current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4c0Fxh0vvVz64TGT for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 11:32:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ivy@freebsd.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [96.47.72.132]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "freefall.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4c0Fxg73grz3CCR; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 11:32:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ivy@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754825576; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=QpQtsv2gqAocTXouX3cpiQ2dLBx/XiPfW0lc/Jc3X3k=; b=NkVLE3AHgeSdKm5qDhBEkujKCDeZByS4OVo0AoOFdVBAbfKbUAQGSMx/HF99kL4HjOkNmB wVnGOyiRqq19dCgTFPNLxeAWe6mKNP2o9Abhz57XcVGlRr7S5N0XgILQEZ85bnMMlr6+UR TN6I4TsvZpEo6O97hMuQ8rtoEF0uXoN5cJsgUTMQEcCH9EanAkQWzJsCINrQvQSxjIaVA1 7+LVZlYvxXdIwDSkZt/gWdBrsC4itCH+KjrdakwfYfRhk8C6MGYHmcDEQT5Gqh+tkw7Q7U JNGYnnN3iZRaXNlW27rxb9Vi/mYFk7znCxDEOLI70kjJ0QtC3EcUk4PxClbcVA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1754825576; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=QpQtsv2gqAocTXouX3cpiQ2dLBx/XiPfW0lc/Jc3X3k=; b=v1dwNxvViIHzKdAQDdYUeqLDW/Wl9i1nwUD+3/QL4UUGHG/iCMJYHf4L4Dwpi4sZ/TKlaf DcN4xJv9SFQ2D8L0F1l7l+QOvKbS7CW1B7ky1IacErL0GXVXbHGDTnhNJTlnNw0JN2Mk8/ zeOsLqdOq9K1QEf4b4flz9Iu5/Kc56DRQw13kpEIWaclniFBTCF2fsDLpC6FegoxbA87Di ONTxyq+XNOgJhJm4zTmFGIgmODsmP44pRtOpZamDVwtypH8p7ygwxE95rUD+uLBn9GcSd6 68/pa7M6atELUlvrHWZwjtue8nIXs13b6tNMb8S+YU0OeRahN6dajsGDY9RMKA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1754825576; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=eP6ChmLZM0xedBJ7aa6i+mzTzQY+k1rayvixIO+EPGBzttYCFjb3b9tB7zbwGr/GKxmRv1 /ZFYFAelhbDmoCSK6Uhqjsw5IDuI1srmT79xPqt2FnQS9y3sMKxyQ3pAwmZCc7ND8z6mh2 lpbJrzgJqcL2HSVbnoWIKK5T6huPe+29Yx27LhgMtjo0Td3EFBPgmtaSFLTX2r/+oyXlfc 12MWJs0HBurCznOWtAWWbeC7Fv75KpmL9U5IgqtdgpNcrX3IlYHcd17bHRKqeh8zeue1kX FmyBfLE1XuOQzqCeFrNZJrLhMOuC2nKElgE9UsOYFzZ0LX1z0hpZP3q25C3YJA== Received: by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 1532) id EAD9410B0; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 11:32:55 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2025 12:32:55 +0100 From: Lexi Winter To: Cy Schubert Cc: "Enji Cooper (yaneurabeya)" , Ian FREISLICH , FreeBSD Current , Pierre Pronchery Subject: Re: OpenSSL legacy provider is broken Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: Cy Schubert , "Enji Cooper (yaneurabeya)" , Ian FREISLICH , FreeBSD Current , Pierre Pronchery References: <20250810060606.CD0DF147@slippy.cwsent.com> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Q2wvLRJhf1H6uSmE" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20250810060606.CD0DF147@slippy.cwsent.com> --Q2wvLRJhf1H6uSmE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cy Schubert: > This looks like it's due to MIT KRB5 in 15. The HEIMDAL option needs to b= e=20 > replaced with a BASE option and BASE should test for MIT KRB5 or HEIMDAL = by=20 > looking at which kdc (kdc for Heimdal or krb5kdc for MIT) is installed. no, don't do that: the kdc is an optional component that may not be installed when building ports, so you can't distinguish between base Kerberos versions that way. see https://reviews.freebsd.org/D51841 for a better way to do this. --Q2wvLRJhf1H6uSmE Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEABYKAB0WIQSyjTg96lp3RifySyn1nT63mIK/YAUCaJiDZAAKCRD1nT63mIK/ YM/KAP9yACYUnk8DfdHw+uS/BE/OyomnM7wLnJfNG6431EoMVgEAjq09UIetBAYk hcTKP0DRIL1CR7gYRcILuFVIZSqMaQQ= =gl+c -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Q2wvLRJhf1H6uSmE-- From nobody Sun Aug 10 13:01:49 2025 X-Original-To: current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4c0HwK0CYNz64dFh for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 13:01:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from omta003.cacentral1.a.cloudfilter.net (omta001.cacentral1.a.cloudfilter.net [3.97.99.32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4c0HwJ1LY4z3Krm for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 13:01:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of cy.schubert@cschubert.com designates 3.97.99.32 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=cy.schubert@cschubert.com; dmarc=permerror reason="p tag has invalid value: quarantine rua=mailto:p[ostmaster@cschubert.com" header.from=cschubert.com (policy=permerror) Received: from shw-obgw-4002a.ext.cloudfilter.net ([10.228.9.250]) by cmsmtp with ESMTPS id klOGuZxuB9JM2l5gNuLwOj; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 13:01:51 +0000 Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.66.136.217]) by cmsmtp with ESMTPSA id l5gLu9GLYl5eGl5gMu16sA; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 13:01:51 +0000 X-Auth-User: cschuber X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.4 cv=EO6l0EZC c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=6898983f a=h7br+8Ma+Xn9xscxy5znUg==:117 a=h7br+8Ma+Xn9xscxy5znUg==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=2OwXVqhp2XgA:10 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=EkcXrb_YAAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=0Ue-RpeaHWMvhlziLPEA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=LK5xJRSDVpKd5WXXoEvA:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy.cwsent.com [10.1.1.91]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A0E29B9; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 06:01:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by slippy.cwsent.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 770FC158; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 06:01:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.9.0 11/07/2018 with nmh-1.8+dev Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: Cy Schubert , "Enji Cooper (yaneurabeya)" , Ian FREISLICH , FreeBSD Current , Pierre Pronchery Subject: Re: OpenSSL legacy provider is broken In-reply-to: References: <20250810060606.CD0DF147@slippy.cwsent.com> Comments: In-reply-to Lexi Winter message dated "Sun, 10 Aug 2025 12:32:55 +0100." List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2025 06:01:49 -0700 Message-Id: <20250810130149.770FC158@slippy.cwsent.com> X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4xfLMJOe1hsvPDeASEaifCRjJl9klCg8NtgmrkQsvGfv47WZrQ5Z5UOxPAWOXmRtes599dVig5KfUPIOpPwrMFBSzJ7VUuOPWDs4sXtf/ECU/s9OW6Iyhy ElpadDlQaSJm5gY07Qg1wA7RROXmQhMchg/XvDNLRlCDTcNCaBOPRxzyPnOPF+FvYE5TpypbFGhotJrIiIyON1hmZBF6MW57EFwUadZsHnywZQJ9qjvyARUv IKAdV8FuZHt82QHQyD13nmq/8p3eE8/bn2xwJP9rvEmXm2wlC/TxTkGbztBAnpjw X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.30 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_EXCELLENT(-0.40)[3.97.99.32:from]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:3.97.99.32/31]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[3.97.99.32:from]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DMARC_BAD_POLICY(0.00)[cschubert.com : p tag has invalid value: quarantine rua=mailto:p[ostmaster@cschubert.com]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16509, ipnet:3.96.0.0/15, country:US]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[cschubert.com,gmail.com,freebsd.org,defora.org]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[current@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4c0HwJ1LY4z3Krm X-Spamd-Bar: --- In message , Lexi Winter writes: > > > --Q2wvLRJhf1H6uSmE > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Disposition: inline > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Cy Schubert: > > This looks like it's due to MIT KRB5 in 15. The HEIMDAL option needs to b= > e=20 > > replaced with a BASE option and BASE should test for MIT KRB5 or HEIMDAL = > by=20 > > looking at which kdc (kdc for Heimdal or krb5kdc for MIT) is installed. > > no, don't do that: the kdc is an optional component that may not be > installed when building ports, so you can't distinguish between base > Kerberos versions that way. > > see https://reviews.freebsd.org/D51841 for a better way to do this. Sorry, I didn't see that revision. I committed e38b33060387 last night after a couple of poudriere build failures here. -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: https://FreeBSD.org NTP: Web: https://nwtime.org e**(i*pi)+1=0 From nobody Sun Aug 10 14:51:44 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4c0LMF4lBRz645Nh for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 14:51:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jgopensource@proton.me) Received: from mail-4316.protonmail.ch (mail-4316.protonmail.ch [185.70.43.16]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "protonmail.com", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4c0LMF1lP1z3YPy for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 14:51:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jgopensource@proton.me) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=proton.me; s=g433zvslindf3hrhp4wpp6upxe.protonmail; t=1754837509; x=1755096709; bh=UsrKEv7G+31fDLcoJ23H/C5kD5QP/gWqFjcJcd+XN2o=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=KuE5mIrL7pKmX4RJ1Gx78UQQDIl1lgKmG72mG+QdB8+Jh7pPPeqen1Ks6pgI4Sa1m xleE4OXZnNX3lmYkSh9CnUkGI0SeD+CpXxAP8pYagT1utlkvT7P9LjyUfabjN58hIn y5RoO3oVfElTxNx4tFGNxgsrbmDYEK7RrQgxd675JzDbMB7xMEMsHbaxloZqXT99Wo wcJdj3mT4Pq7RLL6f8HThI/fcjjeOFnTquTtYmi0oYW+csPePattibJXaBghZFA5Aa 1SJKsAdQhVKEFfMVG/RyYTYtvCV4az6AjCa+KC+vwEv2abvvWystMdERCNQt9MzsYt 5Qqnf3DQ18ulw== Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2025 14:51:44 +0000 To: Mark Millard From: Jordan Gordeev Cc: FreeBSD Current Subject: Re: Example context needing use of hw.usb.usbhid.enable=0 : serial console keyboard input under Parallels (aarch64) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Feedback-ID: 125078299:user:proton X-Pm-Message-ID: f2c017b4a35aa06052defe67f6d8ed1f92dfbf0b List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4c0LMF1lP1z3YPy X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:62371, ipnet:185.70.43.0/24, country:CH] On Sunday, 10 August 2025 at 12:16, Mark Millard wrote: > Until I added the line shown by: >=20 > # grep hw.usb.usbhid.enable /boot/loader.conf > hw.usb.usbhid.enable=3D0 >=20 > I did not any more get: >=20 > ugen1.3: at usbus1 >=20 > ukbd0 on uhub1 > ukbd0: on = usbus1 >=20 > kbd1 at ukbd0 > ukbd1 on uhub1 > ukbd1: on = usbus1 >=20 >=20 > running FreeBSD main under Parallels --but got instead: >=20 > hcons0: on hidbus3 >=20 >=20 > The input to the console window in Parallels > did not work for the hidbus3 one. >=20 When usbhid is enabled USB keyboards should appear as hkbd(4) devices. Do y= ou see any lines mentioning hkbd in dmesg? If not, try adding "hw.hid.hkbd.= debug=3D100" to /boot/loader.conf in the hope that hkbd will produce some d= ebug messages. Try also loading the hkbd module and any modules on which it= depends via loader.conf because that might affect the outcome. When reporting problems such as this, you should provide the version number= of FreeBSD (exact commit ID), version number of Parallels, whether you hav= e any VM tools installed for better integration between FreeBSD and Paralle= ls, and because this is a USB problem, the output of "usbconfig -v" (at lea= st the part describing the keyboard). Best regards, Jordan Gordeev From nobody Sun Aug 10 16:06:36 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4c0N7j2tNkz64FQb; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 16:12:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from trashcan@ellael.org) Received: from mx1.enfer-du-nord.net (mx1.enfer-du-nord.net [78.47.122.106]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4c0N7h3gtXz3l37; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 16:12:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from trashcan@ellael.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=ellael.org header.s=dkim header.b=LS+3GBUk; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of trashcan@ellael.org designates 78.47.122.106 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=trashcan@ellael.org; dmarc=pass (policy=quarantine) header.from=ellael.org Received: from smtpclient.apple (p200300fb4f06dd0151e2f383b07f856c.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [IPv6:2003:fb:4f06:dd01:51e2:f383:b07f:856c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-ECDSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.enfer-du-nord.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4c0N1g3qcVz10Z0; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 18:06:47 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ellael.org; s=dkim; t=1754842007; h=from:from:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/sbSO4tc7jjfvb+FVEjrXmKFBbA1F/TRydfCO6rJz1g=; b=LS+3GBUkUbl5sTpJP6WsUycd30SA9mqPirxfvn9qrVs6n5akBUv8KLgUq+w7iAtDthH+Mz OyLD2yMXTAR8KR8u5+cpq4HTnDQ3aBgUyRCBQkCYw2UH21hdyX15TGnPWq4wiv5JidjYKl Ewokp05Aj8mDeVHS/o3yaA+o3eOtwe0hg223XNVTthUYY7rm4oFjw4sLIVRXOIJcU0KDWH AtKK2AuzYo7rtWdADOGqj7AYym5doypetKSiBhh1+eNjWwFVshx36KBPN87VxZv7kXfaUo +yQeQSxzAMEuNjXXqrfJMTgISxbnle5hMFjkcRPLi8oqxG7SCiKR5u4Z4Q1z5A== From: Michael Grimm Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Reply-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.700.81\)) Subject: make installworld failes on remotely build /usr/obj Message-Id: <719022A6-6FDE-4682-AC78-7003DCC35DA3@ellael.org> Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2025 18:06:36 +0200 To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.700.81) X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.20 / 15.00]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[ellael.org,quarantine]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[ellael.org:s=dkim]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.20)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:78.47.122.106:c]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; REPLYTO_DOM_NEQ_FROM_DOM(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:24940, ipnet:78.46.0.0/15, country:DE]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org,freebsd-stable@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[ellael.org:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; APPLE_MAILER_COMMON(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[78.47.122.106:from]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4c0N7h3gtXz3l37 X-Spamd-Bar: + Hi, for many years now I built stable from source and copied /usr/obj to a = second server. There I installed world and kernel. That workflow = recently stopped to work on the second server in 'make installworld': -------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Installing everything started on Sun Aug 10 17:26:40 CEST 2025 -------------------------------------------------------------- cd /usr/src; make -f Makefile.inc1 install make[3]: "/usr/obj/usr/src/arm64.aarch64/toolchain-metadata.mk" line 1: = Using cached toolchain metadata from build at example.com on Sun Aug 10 = 12:49:00 CEST 2025 =3D=3D=3D> lib (install) =3D=3D=3D> lib/csu (install) =3D=3D=3D> lib/csu/aarch64 (install) /usr/local/bin/ccache cc -target aarch64-unknown-freebsd14.3 = --sysroot=3D/usr/obj/usr/src/arm64.aarch64/tmp = -B/usr/obj/usr/src/arm64.aarch64/tmp/usr/bin -O2 -pipe -fno-common = -I/usr/src/lib/csu/aarch64 -DSTRIP_FBSDID -fno-omit-frame-pointer = -I/usr/src/lib/csu/common -I/usr/src/lib/libc/include -std=3Dgnu99 = -Wno-format-zero-length -Wsystem-headers -Werror -Wall -Wno-format-y2k = -W -Wno-unused-parameter -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes = -Wpointer-arith -Wreturn-type -Wcast-qual -Wwrite-strings -Wswitch = -Wshadow -Wunused-parameter -Wcast-align -Wchar-subscripts = -Wnested-externs -Wold-style-definition -Wno-pointer-sign -Wdate-time = -Wthread-safety -Wno-empty-body -Wno-string-plus-int = -Wno-unused-const-variable -Wno-error=3Dunused-but-set-parameter = -Wno-error=3Dcast-function-type-mismatch -Qunused-arguments = ERROR-tried-to-rebuild-during-make-install -fPIC -DPIC -c -o Scrt1_c.o = /usr/src/lib/csu/aarch64/crt1_s.S ccache: error: Could not find compiler "cc" in PATH *** Error code 1 What has changed? I tried main for a couple of days on both servers. But = I had the feeling to reverting back to stable.=20 Ever since that reverting back to stable I cannot install world any = longer being built at another server. What I had to do to solve this issue: Compiling stable/14 at the second = server and installing world from locally built /usr/obj Any ideas on how to debug this issue are highly welcome. Regards, Michael P.S. I purged /usr/src and created new clone of stable/14 I purged /usr/obj and =E2=80=A6/ccache From nobody Sun Aug 10 16:53:47 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4c0P5M0Rk4z64KDs; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 16:55:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sjg@juniper.net) Received: from mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com (mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com [67.231.152.164]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.pphosted.com", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Organization Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4c0P5L5WhVz3s9G; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 16:55:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sjg@juniper.net) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from pps.filterd (m0108161.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com (8.18.1.2/8.18.1.2) with ESMTP id 57A7f4E6012339; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 09:55:01 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; 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Gerraty" X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.8; Emacs 30.1 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2025 09:53:47 -0700 Message-ID: <57547.1754844827@kaos.jnpr.net> X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DS1PEPF0001709C:EE_|DS1PR05MB10733:EE_ X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 657c453d-3597-4f66-1b94-08ddd82ea2df X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;ARA:13230040|1800799024|376014|82310400026|36860700013; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: =?utf-8?B?Qksxc3VjTlpobjd4V2YvOE56WUxuY2F1aVNaMGxuQTJydkxyVERrZ3VtU2cv?= =?utf-8?B?c091NDBucTZ3RFVvcEVqdk53dlpyTjZXUzJORkRkeFdQM0c2dlFLZTMvcUJ0?= =?utf-8?B?TFQrNXMxZ3JOVzM4ODRwY0Vlb0NUWTBiUmJjb21sZ0xyMWhFaGxPdkIvcmtt?= =?utf-8?B?MVAyQjRsRmNIYTREQ3pndll6ZForcERwVmZNSktqczJYUFlRa08xSW9ocDh0?= =?utf-8?B?TVZ2OHVxSDVmSTd5WUw1TGFMNm9KcFJ2NFFab2xDVFpJNjJ0TytMZjlrd3pX?= =?utf-8?B?Zk5lSEhxei9HOE81TlVGb251L3VuK1orZFE2d1ZONTlET3h0ZWljZEhCTjEy?= =?utf-8?B?Y2FEdUx3RVlIb05UcTU0d2NYcG4ra2gvZTNYeWFYZ0tqdEkxeDdySmZWVmpp?= =?utf-8?B?dXNvNGxxaG12TEdLQmJBUzd4dlhyY0xkREJ3eGN0VFpjakVIWWs0RXc2VG5J?= =?utf-8?B?NVhBOU1Va3ZwQUpON2dBaGZGN2V5QVRITjlXeUNUWUhFOXNaRGFMNWt2WVRl?= =?utf-8?B?dzlyMTFXT08wQVhienFDTkZpSDEvTzlPSEZhV2k4UXNCS2pFc29GVUkrOTJY?= =?utf-8?B?N1J1T2ZtOFBuU3pSN1ZTd0ZuUFF3a3JkMzZGQjFuY1A3ck8wblFUajJCNWtU?= =?utf-8?B?M3ZsRy84eFA1NWI4TDhRaDlIc3hwNWt3dkIrQlB4bzNEa0MwRWtOQm0wZ3ZI?= =?utf-8?B?bE1oVE5iaVBVSGd4bC9MOXY1aE5YUUFFN2pkNmRFRTlaWnBtQjFMNU5mNlhq?= =?utf-8?B?b01KUHBhdXgrYS9xcE9Fc3VxVHc5cENTZDJhK3dsYWJiMnF5a01rSVpDK0lZ?= =?utf-8?B?YTQ1THlUSmZoaFJaelo2UW45UHpoTzY1SlJYQW8rZGlQZXV5SVBlbjVtK2RO?= =?utf-8?B?UGNLVDhyL2hhcHZ2bmdxMXhIdjV5SEIybksrQmpxcUJiNTA4cGJaUE5mazBk?= =?utf-8?B?b084VHEyb2dweVFkMVpkZEFIeTM4Y0pINTVwSXdqajRCbTN2VzJjTkVEak1a?= =?utf-8?B?VDlycGpWWkxheDZVVHZta21FczR2ZkFPNnZzT2RFV1JXNGZENDlzWUg5NDJ0?= =?utf-8?B?Qi9yQXV6djVjWm1kSzRxUkh4Nk83a1ppQjVNTXlyaFZ4bXcyUWdzZjNOUWdV?= =?utf-8?B?ckR5NkUyS2lEazBwZG9zVHVTVUx5eWpOWFFyWDMxOU9zQnZKYWhMaUJjSUh2?= =?utf-8?B?VzFRdC8zV1FaYUJkc0hLVlhwVDg5SXhpMnl5aDJuTlB4NjhZWU5VZ1NVQ1ZE?= =?utf-8?B?dGdXemZ3WE9rNTlMRFFXbEE5RnMrWm55NTBpR0NwSUNuUHR0WFBDZmlxM200?= =?utf-8?B?RmZGbFFiTXUwRSs4R3Z2R0tpemdqQVJHUWRGaWQ2MURPMjlSbm4vRHgvWUtB?= =?utf-8?B?UVJ0eVFYMVhERjZsRWhpY01VWFFPS1F6VHgzc1FrS3c2T2VNTlB4TWwzcmZX?= =?utf-8?B?ZFdNOHpSdEtEWkpkZ0JHNWlHYVBGSTg1UjZjcU1USGRuQzYwNVZhSXJQaUJS?= =?utf-8?B?d2NWRG55b3pROFN6NW5KaUUrazFGUXNRa0lDK0hFalZRRVZoMys0cVpOUzFU?= =?utf-8?B?RG9wNS9nV2FqZEFyYlJSMjVQWmNLaW52dmtmYnViV3RHNWJhSkxFUjlkd2RW?= =?utf-8?B?Q0hiME5oenozTTVHTTdKeWtQUjVBUmdsR1lFekVidHA0dEQ3TDhDZ05JWFE3?= =?utf-8?B?eHVaM2lGaXVuTDRNcksxN1J1MTNVUWdaT3p2TW0xRHd3V1M3L1FhcUZ3OVZT?= =?utf-8?B?d2VQN2NvcHBZWmlDc292Y0R2NFR5TU9rRFVldWlJdngzSFVuYUw1SjRiWUF3?= =?utf-8?B?SVZ6YXNwZFhRL3QzR2tCSlBMWTcvNHBDU29NKzBDVHJZc0lhVzNURmtsdUti?= =?utf-8?B?WVNRT1Rpa2lFK1pGR2szcUtjUEZJcVNDN0h1VHBPSjlUbkFGNlhnbDhKNjV2?= =?utf-8?B?K2s1K0VuQXk0NDduaGYwUmJZekI3R081S3poMEd5VGE0cU5Zdmt0Q1RBRVpS?= =?utf-8?B?cEV4Y000U0VXU1c1dGdYSTNLUWRSY2dtUGJ0VDM2cDQ1UGwrT0JZS2labk9Q?= =?utf-8?Q?Fwq1Ij?= X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:66.129.239.14;CTRY:US;LANG:en;SCL:1;SRV:;IPV:CAL;SFV:NSPM;H:p-exchfe-eqx-01.jnpr.net;PTR:InfoDomainNonexistent;CAT:NONE;SFS:(13230040)(1800799024)(376014)(82310400026)(36860700013);DIR:OUT;SFP:1102; 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module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:22843, ipnet:67.231.152.0/24, country:US] Michael Grimm wrote: > for many years now I built stable from source and copied /usr/obj to a > second server. There I installed world and kernel. That workflow > recently stopped to work on the second server in 'make installworld': It would be useful if you could say when this last worked as you expected. >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> Installing everything started on Sun Aug 10 17:26:40 CEST 2025 > -------------------------------------------------------------- > cd /usr/src; make -f Makefile.inc1 install > make[3]: "/usr/obj/usr/src/arm64.aarch64/toolchain-metadata.mk" line 1: U= sing cached toolchain metadata from build at example.com on Sun Aug 10 12:4= 9:00 CEST 2025 > =3D=3D=3D> lib (install) > =3D=3D=3D> lib/csu (install) > =3D=3D=3D> lib/csu/aarch64 (install) > /usr/local/bin/ccache cc -target aarch64-unknown-freebsd14.3 --sysroot=3D= /usr/obj/usr/src/arm64.aarch64/tmp -B/usr/obj/usr/src/arm64.aarch64/tmp/usr= /bin -O2 -pipe -fno-common -I/usr/src/lib/csu/aarch64 -DSTRIP_FBSDID -fno= -omit-frame-pointer -I/usr/src/lib/csu/common -I/usr/src/lib/libc/include = -std=3Dgnu99 -Wno-format-zero-length -Wsystem-headers -Werror -Wall -Wno-f= ormat-y2k -W -Wno-unused-parameter -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes= -Wpointer-arith -Wreturn-type -Wcast-qual -Wwrite-strings -Wswitch -Wshado= w -Wunused-parameter -Wcast-align -Wchar-subscripts -Wnested-externs -Wold-= style-definition -Wno-pointer-sign -Wdate-time -Wthread-safety -Wno-empty-b= ody -Wno-string-plus-int -Wno-unused-const-variable -Wno-error=3Dunused-but= -set-parameter -Wno-error=3Dcast-function-type-mismatch -Qunused-arguments= ERROR-tried-to-rebuild-during-make-install -fPIC -DPIC -c -o Scrt1_c.o = /usr/src/lib/csu/aarch64/crt1_s.S > ccache: error: Could not find compiler "cc" in PATH > *** Error code 1 >=20 > What has changed? I tried main for a couple of days on both servers. But = I had the feeling to reverting back to stable. >=20 >=20 > Ever since that reverting back to stable I cannot install world any longe= r being built at another server. >=20 > What I had to do to solve this issue: Compiling stable/14 at the second s= erver and installing world from locally built /usr/obj >=20 > Any ideas on how to debug this issue are highly welcome. >=20 > Regards, > Michael >=20 > P.S. I purged /usr/src and created new clone of stable/14 > I purged /usr/obj and =E2=80=A6/ccache >=20 From nobody Sun Aug 10 17:23:30 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4c0PkW703gz64NSM; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 17:23:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from trashcan@ellael.org) Received: from mx1.enfer-du-nord.net (mx1.enfer-du-nord.net [78.47.122.106]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4c0PkW4KLVz3vqH; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 17:23:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from trashcan@ellael.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from smtpclient.apple (p200300fb4f06dd0151e2f383b07f856c.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [IPv6:2003:fb:4f06:dd01:51e2:f383:b07f:856c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-ECDSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.enfer-du-nord.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4c0PkN67dLz110j; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 19:23:40 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ellael.org; s=dkim; t=1754846621; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=1RipkQlDLJpk4jwYaY5D+A5AL3vJA+4cLrdUlrPMWes=; b=vi5jngdBq281CtO2Mxg+D5qncP4bAWjya7CCm5k2atZC9ez1nnhr4hiVUkWQOyaempcj7O etK8UyX6ekUVqaNEvpCb1YtMpy/usQl3Qz0VzHxyOBe1W3R0rg+w/g2GyFIiJxSaM07/Gd 74skTjrXH0AFPA/H6FErWuRhSd8mONFnmzguVMATJVnJBHN1/YKfqo7bAPW9TxBt35lTdj R4+eRkwAzs34GoV1P4rnapb/ffy4UP+Q5+cFw6GTW5OUM9ENMCU+InVtzdm1mZl9PjMK+Y qoloFJ1kcDMTIN/wlGskhuwYAucKVaP5hdow8lbh44AKcG7wavPuqwsTkhuSSw== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.700.81\)) Subject: Re: make installworld failes on remotely build /usr/obj From: Michael Grimm In-Reply-To: <57547.1754844827@kaos.jnpr.net> Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2025 19:23:30 +0200 Cc: "" , "" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <409D03F1-0DE4-46A6-BD65-3C5C72556E48@ellael.org> References: <719022A6-6FDE-4682-AC78-7003DCC35DA3@ellael.org> <57547.1754844827@kaos.jnpr.net> To: "Simon J. Gerraty" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.700.81) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4c0PkW4KLVz3vqH X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:24940, ipnet:78.46.0.0/15, country:DE] Simon J. Gerraty wrote: > > Michael Grimm wrote: > >> for many years now I built stable from source and copied /usr/obj to a >> second server. There I installed world and kernel. That workflow >> recently stopped to work on the second server in 'make installworld': > > It would be useful if you could say when this last worked as you > expected. Two days ago at main. Seven days ago at stable/14. Regards, Michael From nobody Sun Aug 10 17:31:52 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4c0PwB0pscz64Ntw; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 17:32:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from trashcan@ellael.org) Received: from mx1.enfer-du-nord.net (mx1.enfer-du-nord.net [IPv6:2a01:4f8:1c1b:c620::1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4c0Pw95djPz3yHR; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 17:32:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from trashcan@ellael.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from smtpclient.apple (p200300fb4f06dd0151e2f383b07f856c.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [IPv6:2003:fb:4f06:dd01:51e2:f383:b07f:856c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-ECDSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.enfer-du-nord.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4c0Pw31Whmz11Lq; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 19:32:03 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ellael.org; s=dkim; t=1754847123; h=from:from:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=i2cJR86HCcRwS08pihyzIrMHjjCIc/q7Bzw48oo8NaI=; b=OThzfXx3UfhTtTME0WKFhFO+VvBZ1CHV4FSqMEM3Cbelhm0CyZuejQSLKafj/duByi3SbR AIHkIF02Yzh5HPLI6Uqmcz7h1U6QD/niwcWkyI+4/xWkvaICvqjajO/gLGHnL2Awk/Ll9W IPmzfTnsuSyku2x0EwBLssA60jcAgkYd/ICT/jf6j/vop2UFyLm9X7uWdKm235gUf+xr2w oF5n1KcLCk4oabFq5/Yth6ufuzDt++9cg+gMy6ms1UXXBN/Z7kuMly8M2Gu7l/jPND3/Xs wStvMd7bZTp+SP3my3AzmpsETi6ojdPIScp9yPFo58VfZaBvNEyh71K/oMEBpA== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.700.81\)) Subject: Re: make installworld failes on remotely build /usr/obj From: Michael Grimm In-Reply-To: <719022A6-6FDE-4682-AC78-7003DCC35DA3@ellael.org> Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2025 19:31:52 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Reply-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Message-Id: <70449F4A-D432-41EC-85D8-915293C8B269@ellael.org> References: <719022A6-6FDE-4682-AC78-7003DCC35DA3@ellael.org> To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.700.81) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4c0Pw95djPz3yHR X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:24940, ipnet:2a01:4f8::/32, country:DE] Michael Grimm wrote: > Ever since that reverting back to stable I cannot install world any = longer being built at another server. >=20 > What I had to do to solve this issue: Compiling stable/14 at the = second server and installing world from locally built /usr/obj It's getting weird: If I do copy /usr/obj from that second server over = to the first server I can installworld at that server. What settings -besides those in /usr/src, /etc/make.conf, /etc/src.conf, = and /etc/src-env.conf- might be targets of investigation?=20 (All /etc/=E2=80=A6 are identical at both servers, btw). 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 1ffa000a67c0e2a56d68813da854c18c; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 17:32:48 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.700.81\)) Subject: Re: Example context needing use of hw.usb.usbhid.enable=0 : serial console keyboard input under Parallels (aarch64) [no longer reproduces] From: Mark Millard In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2025 10:32:37 -0700 Cc: FreeBSD Current Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Jordan Gordeev X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.700.81) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4c0Px25NLZz40wl X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36647, ipnet:98.137.64.0/20, country:US] On Aug 10, 2025, at 07:51, Jordan Gordeev = wrote: > On Sunday, 10 August 2025 at 12:16, Mark Millard = wrote: >=20 >> Until I added the line shown by: >>=20 >> # grep hw.usb.usbhid.enable /boot/loader.conf >> hw.usb.usbhid.enable=3D0 >>=20 >> I did not any more get: >>=20 >> ugen1.3: at usbus1 >>=20 >> ukbd0 on uhub1 >> ukbd0: = on usbus1 >>=20 >> kbd1 at ukbd0 >> ukbd1 on uhub1 >> ukbd1: = on usbus1 >>=20 >>=20 >> running FreeBSD main under Parallels --but got instead: >>=20 >> hcons0: on hidbus3 >>=20 >>=20 >> The input to the console window in Parallels >> did not work for the hidbus3 one. >>=20 >=20 > When usbhid is enabled USB keyboards should appear as hkbd(4) devices. = Do you see any lines mentioning hkbd in dmesg? If not, try adding = "hw.hid.hkbd.debug=3D100" to /boot/loader.conf in the hope that hkbd = will produce some debug messages. Try also loading the hkbd module and = any modules on which it depends via loader.conf because that might = affect the outcome. >=20 > When reporting problems such as this, you should provide the version = number of FreeBSD (exact commit ID), version number of Parallels, = whether you have any VM tools installed for better integration between = FreeBSD and Parallels, and because this is a USB problem, the output of = "usbconfig -v" (at least the part describing the keyboard). I'm now unable to reproduce the issue. I had reproduced it multiple times before sending to the list, mostly to note a type of context with observed lack of operation. (I've no problem with using hw.usb.usbhid.enable=3D0 for my context.) I'm to be updating FreeBSD and I see Parallels has a new version. So it looks like gathering and reporting more about how things are would not be of much use. I'll report more if I get the problem again. =3D=3D=3D Mark Millard marklmi at yahoo.com From nobody Sun Aug 10 17:34:03 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4c0Pyl2lltz64PVj for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 17:34:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-pj1-x102d.google.com (mail-pj1-x102d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102d]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4c0Pyl0trGz42w1 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 17:34:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-pj1-x102d.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-320dfa8cfa3so3460417a91.3 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 10:34:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1754847255; x=1755452055; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Qp/ZW56yybQOY07mkgvVFdwiCRE9aXHYTvsWfNYERAQ=; b=rRll8jXPa3kuE9DlXaQmwWcNxZH26tdD3IiywYlHbKKPgN8TyekQ72h0+/TG/G21io Zqf+wR7uIW5Rk2g75hbmZZnrYWoL3Yr6lqWmUXhm+7+pcZKHE+v+xk8mik7M9LRTF17L L5+DojvIUQ6K1Eq9ZVUtfsI1Pmb3z3BB3W3cMYLoIY8ks+2naZvkPpZ2J6ZjdSGSwUFf jdp00lIuzQWkPsjJMF+0p7KylMpVteQ9Uf44w178AuYDuNo1b1BClJXxpsvDgHm0Ftco a2mersWCNWyn4ZRHlhLMVp7+JxzEp7DfdbbYG5ALpC1KyAx9l3havZDW9aeVAWFrcw+q LG7A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1754847255; x=1755452055; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=Qp/ZW56yybQOY07mkgvVFdwiCRE9aXHYTvsWfNYERAQ=; b=oVheyDYR4ngFliY/g4KynNsdjON7YlF844aiFMPxdJZgnw80QXOcc3LDD/MnML1ZER nbUXgDuM0KEHBOcr2qzzlJKL1UwR37cyJYARJVM5Xr9OMoYEP5pvlWeLTJXFHZFvso8X Zc76j7bqxM9KheC0gYaDcHbLtQQDV6nEV2t5G5RMyraWQiC2s6wJxCooEP9uaxnemOaY 1uFMIB5iP8muvuGDgiedzP/4g491l6ye1lrKpbHC/uU0gmHzZZxZyVXZkuByaQytKzbr BTWY8l5puLXUVizCEpOlTbqFPMYupnze9iiDh81hdqZHnCuwFqk46JfAWXMCzOM3ZMVS m4wg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwiRRrwfe5ZRKKpPOZI079k9B1ba9/onogs28A3mzExQpQGPft/ qkJ60fI3aWvHreEJgiDVsGt26aSJWr4k4eLFBJm1LtqpyH+VckgNtURVGeZlaQi2hVL36b8iUnb c9agbNGUX9yx18FlkSX118YOLMp6It4qmQz+p+/zrR8nfrkzF5uM7 X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncsE89V7qwsvYSTeIQZzARtrvyhsmAty4kS7Ll5doPr5nZDNikmau+eMb0V8jLh NeWMoVTLZb8QwMIj6tcVXoTPlIvGvnNb9L+G+hrcecparWQl21f4ySZJu+xVELrFGN7aMO0YnU/ lV62PD9sjJwkvGaQal8jcbHHd1jdOsAjJ6v7TTPfieL6/HdRHXxemZluf0re7cw58D/wTlW8e8h t14GOC/ffpK8IMEx3B0fgV0hezMEcqTmm3PMz1ok5afCXMzn5Y= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEVtdgiuKTDYePy2k5QagSX9cO5NcWtLbIEVWtQe9HXWdKmhMZ2SE/xh7T9xhYpJDdP3RkeBxvl0hnX6e+pkY8= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:52:b0:321:59e7:c5c2 with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-321839f14a1mr14781850a91.9.1754847255521; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 10:34:15 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <719022A6-6FDE-4682-AC78-7003DCC35DA3@ellael.org> <70449F4A-D432-41EC-85D8-915293C8B269@ellael.org> In-Reply-To: <70449F4A-D432-41EC-85D8-915293C8B269@ellael.org> From: Warner Losh Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2025 11:34:03 -0600 X-Gm-Features: Ac12FXwtC0cFCIuzt-2gn-fMWdi2bWktCGR3Pi8T6qyHTy69gBN4be9boCHBEzY Message-ID: Subject: Re: make installworld failes on remotely build /usr/obj To: FreeBSD Current Cc: FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004cff3f063c063709" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4c0Pyl0trGz42w1 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] --0000000000004cff3f063c063709 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Aug 10, 2025, 11:32=E2=80=AFAM Michael Grimm = wrote: > Michael Grimm wrote: > > > Ever since that reverting back to stable I cannot install world any > longer being built at another server. > > > > What I had to do to solve this issue: Compiling stable/14 at the second > server and installing world from locally built /usr/obj > > It's getting weird: If I do copy /usr/obj from that second server over to > the first server I can installworld at that server. > > What settings -besides those in /usr/src, /etc/make.conf, /etc/src.conf, > and /etc/src-env.conf- might be targets of investigation? > > (All /etc/=E2=80=A6 are identical at both servers, btw). > I assume you've ruled out time skew between the two? Warner > > --0000000000004cff3f063c063709 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sun, Aug 10, 2025, 11:32=E2= =80=AFAM Michael Grimm <trashcan@= ellael.org> wrote:
Michael = Grimm <trashcan@ellael.org> wrote:

> Ever since that reverting back to stable I cannot install world any lo= nger being built at another server.
>
> What I had to do to solve this issue: Compiling stable/14 at the secon= d server and installing world from locally built /usr/obj

It's getting weird: If I do copy /usr/obj from that second server over = to the first server I can installworld at that server.

What settings -besides those in /usr/src, /etc/make.conf, /etc/src.conf, an= d /etc/src-env.conf- might be targets of investigation?

(All /etc/=E2=80=A6 are identical at both servers, btw).

I assume you've= ruled out time skew between the two?

Warner

--0000000000004cff3f063c063709-- From nobody Sun Aug 10 17:54:55 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4c0QQq0Xs6z64RSG; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 17:55:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from trashcan@ellael.org) Received: from mx2.enfer-du-nord.net (mx2.enfer-du-nord.net [65.109.240.115]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4c0QQp4Z71z46Hr; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 17:55:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from trashcan@ellael.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from smtpclient.apple (p200300fb4f06dd0151e2f383b07f856c.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [IPv6:2003:fb:4f06:dd01:51e2:f383:b07f:856c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-ECDSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx2.enfer-du-nord.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4c0QQg4wmbzDbs; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 19:55:07 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ellael.org; s=dkim; t=1754848508; h=from:from:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=14MAlrLA9bUCi5zUvB23awbviCDbHLwZGi2piwOiML8=; b=od92uaTfSmd2gJKhb6kn+byfhsRGoO33hXH7fmMrWo9J4lfB+oBbtrhami4JATnu6lYVba q6Oiryu+za+vt/xjEn+ln3l86klO6LZ55Rbge5Pz3FGLQ13j1s91kpf5TKpueyUvQugYRy PL2Aguf7aPNyulsI2InGftMN0slBhT0ao6Y0NZA6Ysy/wJFY8bpy82BVlXNPFfHhEz21Uq P+QWC3y+C2N6BdHc6reotaQ8pP9N0Mbj7SNzH0Or7HvDMyUN/GKMNLCpLLlME8/JbsCjdZ 0K1I2SGPxFj4A4j14BK1F6knDHjF7/UGYCoy2twNAL6VB48rzIN8SSpV8rbK/A== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.700.81\)) Subject: Re: make installworld failes on remotely build /usr/obj From: Michael Grimm In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2025 19:54:55 +0200 Cc: FreeBSD Current , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List Reply-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <333B0C4F-C55B-4877-A7D9-DA51648D8D78@ellael.org> References: <719022A6-6FDE-4682-AC78-7003DCC35DA3@ellael.org> <70449F4A-D432-41EC-85D8-915293C8B269@ellael.org> To: Warner Losh X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.700.81) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4c0QQp4Z71z46Hr X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:24940, ipnet:65.109.0.0/16, country:DE] Warner Losh wrote: >=20 > On Sun, Aug 10, 2025, 11:32=E2=80=AFAM Michael Grimm = wrote: > Michael Grimm wrote: >=20 > > Ever since that reverting back to stable I cannot install world any = longer being built at another server. > >=20 > > What I had to do to solve this issue: Compiling stable/14 at the = second server and installing world from locally built /usr/obj >=20 > It's getting weird: If I do copy /usr/obj from that second server over = to the first server I can installworld at that server. >=20 > What settings -besides those in /usr/src, /etc/make.conf, = /etc/src.conf, and /etc/src-env.conf- might be targets of investigation?=20= >=20 > (All /etc/=E2=80=A6 are identical at both servers, btw). >=20 > I assume you've ruled out time skew between the two? Yes, both servers show identical times, and: I am copying /usr/obj via = rsync, no NFS involved. I will show here the beginning of a 'make installworld' logs on a = locally created /usr/obj, and on a remotely created /usr/obj: = ##########################################################################= ################################## # locally: -------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Installing everything started on Sun Aug 10 17:26:40 CEST 2025 -------------------------------------------------------------- cd /usr/src; make -f Makefile.inc1 install make[3]: "/usr/obj/usr/src/arm64.aarch64/toolchain-metadata.mk" line 1: = Using cached toolchain metadata from build at kaan-bock.net on Sun Aug = 10 12:49:00 CEST 2025 =3D=3D=3D> lib (install) =3D=3D=3D> lib/csu (install) =3D=3D=3D> lib/csu/aarch64 (install) /usr/local/bin/ccache cc -target aarch64-unknown-freebsd14.3 = --sysroot=3D/usr/obj/usr/src/arm64.aarch64/tmp = -B/usr/obj/usr/src/arm64.aarch64/tmp/usr/bin -O2 -pipe -fno-common = -I/usr/src/lib/csu/aarch64 -DSTRIP_FBSDID -fno-omit-frame-pointer = -I/usr/src/lib/csu/common -I/usr/src/lib/libc/include -std=3Dgnu99 = -Wno-format-zero-length -Wsystem-headers -Werror -Wall -Wno-format-y2k = -W -Wno-unused-parameter -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes = -Wpointer-arith -Wreturn-type -Wcast-qual -Wwrite-strings -Wswitch = -Wshadow -Wunused-parameter -Wcast-align -Wchar-subscripts = -Wnested-externs -Wold-style-definition -Wno-pointer-sign -Wdate-time = -Wthread-safety -Wno-empty-body -Wno-string-plus-int = -Wno-unused-const-variable -Wno-error=3Dunused-but-set-parameter = -Wno-error=3Dcast-function-type-mismatch -Qunused-arguments = ERROR-tried-to-rebuild-during-make-install -fPIC -DPIC -c -o Scrt1_c.o = /usr/src/lib/csu/aarch64/crt1_s.S ccache: error: Could not find compiler "cc" in PATH *** Error code 1 # remotely: -------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Installing everything started on Sun Aug 10 15:22:06 CEST 2025 -------------------------------------------------------------- cd /usr/src; make -f Makefile.inc1 install make[3]: "/usr/obj/usr/src/arm64.aarch64/toolchain-metadata.mk" line 1: = Using cached toolchain metadata from build at kaan-bock.net on Sun Aug = 10 14:46:50 CEST 2025 =3D=3D=3D> lib (install) =3D=3D=3D> lib/csu (install) =3D=3D=3D> lib/csu/aarch64 (install) installing DIRS FILESDIR install -d -m 0755 -o root -g wheel /usr/lib install -C -o root -g wheel -m 444 Scrt1.o /usr/lib/Scrt1.o install -C -o root -g wheel -m 444 crt1.o /usr/lib/crt1.o install -C -o root -g wheel -m 444 gcrt1.o /usr/lib/gcrt1.o install -C -o root -g wheel -m 444 crtbegin.o /usr/lib/crtbegin.o install -C -o root -g wheel -m 444 crtbeginS.o /usr/lib/crtbeginS.o install -C -o root -g wheel -m 444 crtbeginT.o /usr/lib/crtbeginT.o install -C -o root -g wheel -m 444 crtend.o /usr/lib/crtend.o install -C -o root -g wheel -m 444 crtendS.o /usr/lib/crtendS.o install -C -o root -g wheel -m 444 crti.o /usr/lib/crti.o install -C -o root -g wheel -m 444 crtn.o /usr/lib/crtn.o =3D=3D=3D> lib/csu/tests (install) installing DIRS testsFILESDIR install -d -m 0755 -o root -g wheel /usr/tests/lib/csu install -C -o root -g wheel -m 444 Kyuafile = /usr/tests/lib/csu/Kyuafile = ##########################################################################= ################################## Thus, "=3D=3D=3D> lib/csu/aarch64 (install)" is failing on remote = /usr/obj But, I cannot see why? 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Sun, 10 Aug 2025 11:29:46 -0700 (PDT) To: Michael Grimm CC: "" , "" , Subject: Re: make installworld failes on remotely build /usr/obj In-Reply-To: <409D03F1-0DE4-46A6-BD65-3C5C72556E48@ellael.org> References: <719022A6-6FDE-4682-AC78-7003DCC35DA3@ellael.org> <57547.1754844827@kaos.jnpr.net> <409D03F1-0DE4-46A6-BD65-3C5C72556E48@ellael.org> Comments: In-reply-to: Michael Grimm message dated "Sun, 10 Aug 2025 19:23:30 +0200." From: "Simon J. Gerraty" X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.8; Emacs 30.1 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <22750.1754850586.1@kaos.jnpr.net> Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2025 11:29:46 -0700 Message-ID: <27511.1754850586@kaos.jnpr.net> X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: BL6PEPF0001AB4E:EE_|DS0PR05MB10859:EE_ X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: dd84bc63-a1a5-47a5-1432-08ddd83c0b91 X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;ARA:13230040|36860700013|1800799024|376014|82310400026|7053199007; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: =?us-ascii?Q?I1XXhJ8FHKGwpreCp+NhdWLsDH7ma8wrxsloqmXuPFtW3GxKOlOynez8oPjw?= =?us-ascii?Q?Y83tnMcdnNx4vxOYu1jZ/EwkeotPOmTCowi4ovncpkYdKDuAs9PtvqFjueSt?= =?us-ascii?Q?2dqZVEs+BeDKAC4oKopjQZmjHe58rAuV9R3TxHhpVIDMacTU/p04Fp8Ys+qq?= =?us-ascii?Q?3xp2ByPlP3muGW+Ru6ZEdbTMdVJE6kCpY4XnJvvtVK81OWjTDGk8g9FdKFaf?= =?us-ascii?Q?Da+cLUVis94+LkQL0FjGuzbZLtJknsTVpIsY6bux65657GTu8ON6vd59PKNM?= =?us-ascii?Q?awT8biJkTIvbvrCjdFt6sDKFzBpmCnfxvkVrE9qdxBdBii6GUuiyEeJGW4+9?= =?us-ascii?Q?hqHOQ8U+v0pidNNgoeoDqJspjh6B0b81CK2JabWM43KTdO9X8Eqx8gYrrtb+?= =?us-ascii?Q?EbzE1YPw9wuk5fPmgxMzaAfHzmfQNs17auG8a80AjZS5vKP33M55TXB9Kmed?= =?us-ascii?Q?19HOghrOEadbYKng1WMczVq6jkAbBYwGIkVokPMQriarVRj5LAKf3W+S5Q/0?= =?us-ascii?Q?GXVIvKqETgorxgjMexZV6rDQdeJX8DC097fiMvLgDkPn1xRIQS+UC/2KRQZ1?= =?us-ascii?Q?lvD9Y2p1SOm0tTWBl0UsZ1JorFnha7BcNq5a+PeHkLxvg4hym96qkxmvnHHE?= =?us-ascii?Q?bJMFP7VMYvb77OLdVQJKnAEavzTF+oJ/rtZEsUvaFpNYInsjpj6ZUomgCMv1?= =?us-ascii?Q?iFwj0hqjyjcCCu9QW76QJi+ViUJrDxLC4YmXJ4oFJc5KH0QGQtW65oOboPQ4?= =?us-ascii?Q?+7RpY6K8fhuKUmK74+B3IxjCrrQdiVA8SwHiiEdtKnhM30vslgK44GU5z3Zm?= =?us-ascii?Q?2+7axCv706W64HVkjQJsyRRL1SUMrU42+4/MaCvK/mr++b+JobM28aW+fssg?= =?us-ascii?Q?OtnwfvUAjMVJ2TLPg4boAv7+mogp1zq9bZivys2wav/ccIXhpbF5dKpyqQRZ?= =?us-ascii?Q?sPKH07rS/RHccDEnDg+hUU4ry9Ym1yMln/2eLSFnPjXA98MyNJjJLtjSqKOt?= =?us-ascii?Q?8+HE6CXBAFhVlA9/BxaOLwVWI288YkjdhPWNlVEr36IRmBRlMIvb0Ht39Som?= =?us-ascii?Q?Ftu4ADQfxgx/+rRr4rcBPa4Ch0hCEkBF+/ofsT69giGi8khtqEvqlulGfFPt?= =?us-ascii?Q?KsjZQ5Tlh9KfDJEwKCT6olfhwGw0q66vghkLLv1nMicBM/rCDl0TBAM1J6Sn?= =?us-ascii?Q?X48h2OV65/0iI/EbCf5G5QjFlFVmE8sDCmuiCoV7qiflpvljvDlaNpm2KwxG?= =?us-ascii?Q?467c8/zfe7GdHmSiHauNxeQwmIOosd2OqX59yv/VrgpGgAZjrSGRDUNIZ7F3?= =?us-ascii?Q?9xgp48rELiAIpBL7AVkL6fb5SZvzazijAhGklKrShv0VuCFADhLmMXQ7N3KM?= =?us-ascii?Q?vTiEEyZHj/hQMTb4FKsXfj8ARO4Vm6WJgYBaocx6OiAd1UgfFoj3CjFIbMuX?= =?us-ascii?Q?p7X/PxXrcwQfZEClLSjtBukH43jAZiJswBsFnh+xYKQ53nJko6attVgsIFh0?= =?us-ascii?Q?UGYsXxeLyrjmEAfc9FknWYMOC30zPF5aU7+n?= X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:66.129.239.14;CTRY:US;LANG:en;SCL:1;SRV:;IPV:CAL;SFV:NSPM;H:p-exchfe-eqx-01.jnpr.net;PTR:InfoDomainNonexistent;CAT:NONE;SFS:(13230040)(36860700013)(1800799024)(376014)(82310400026)(7053199007);DIR:OUT;SFP:1102; X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Aug 2025 18:30:55.8349 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: dd84bc63-a1a5-47a5-1432-08ddd83c0b91 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalAttributedTenantConnectingIp: TenantId=bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4;Ip=[66.129.239.14];Helo=[p-exchfe-eqx-01.jnpr.net] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BL6PEPF0001AB4E.namprd04.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Anonymous X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DS0PR05MB10859 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: a_FdyzX-8lsi6UsbbWpWLyIEL6f5orHm X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.4 cv=H/7bw/Yi c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=6898e565 cx=c_pps a=7YB+2G0If1l7sHkNSTuqNQ==:117 a=f/rncuQqEjTEF/G1odkJ9w==:17 a=6eWqkTHjU83fiwn7nKZWdM+Sl24=:19 a=h8e1o3o8w34MuCiiGQrqVE4VwXA=:19 a=wKuvFiaSGQ0qltdbU6+NXLB8nM8=:19 a=Ol13hO9ccFRV9qXi2t6ftBPywas=:19 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=2OwXVqhp2XgA:10 a=s63m1ICgrNkA:10 a=rhJc5-LppCAA:10 a=T_YFPyFoAAAA:8 a=OUXY8nFuAAAA:8 a=U066RbC697IE-poVqLoA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=fKaBkT6cBtmegwcwHIDe:22 a=cAcMbU7R10T-QSRYIcO_:22 X-Proofpoint-GUID: a_FdyzX-8lsi6UsbbWpWLyIEL6f5orHm X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details-Enc: AW1haW4tMjUwODA5MDA4MiBTYWx0ZWRfXz6lPrTKevbuU 2h68RaG3s630NMeZ0bIQdxZi01tpYgJC6cK65pydLxNIuPOlgI+BJR+bKKvvTLInNZ9ZhlnOqKf UiDgN9HSRSIfMByvnkbF7t2upoAdTJ3UQ0qFO9ULHJNmaM+G/c0PrWCXAS2XCLf9+Ii0hmnFZQ4 eYj6MMc5VfiQhf3mJpQyOewJ1FGdmf3Er10s0V/1dqg5uI4A/eOIJcYq+I6YLTrmHI29QxZZZXu Pj4XfIA2F8PbREV8i1c9EIOAe/Rx2QGF55aArfhj6JAcv28p8An4RUeMbm/mrWuZegwH04ZwrJp RuqIr1OgIMB0A/O7IjIGESqxSMEYZPM4P1BOE4oGE9RGWdmZsFhow1AmhHI8CKGyppQ4MmVqM0+ 92RVTwdS X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.293,Aquarius:18.0.1099,Hydra:6.1.9,FMLib:17.12.80.40 definitions=2025-08-10_05,2025-08-06_01,2025-03-28_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 impostorscore=0 suspectscore=0 clxscore=1015 spamscore=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=typeunknown authscore=0 authtc= authcc= route=outbound adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.19.0-2507300000 definitions=main-2508090082 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4c0RDF6Xd7z4FWm X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:26211, ipnet:208.84.65.0/24, country:US] Michael Grimm wrote: > Simon J. Gerraty wrote: > > > > Michael Grimm wrote: > > > > >> for many years now I built stable from source and copied /usr/obj to a > >> second server. There I installed world and kernel. That workflow > >> recently stopped to work on the second server in 'make installworld': > > > > It would be useful if you could say when this last worked as you > > expected. > > Two days ago at main. Seven days ago at stable/14. Sorry, I don't see any changes in share/mk in the last few days that should matter. From nobody Sun Aug 10 18:59:56 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4c0Rsn2cdyz64YFf for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 19:00:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Received: from smtpo69.interia.pl (smtpo69.interia.pl [217.74.67.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4c0Rsm5jPRz4JmJ; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 19:00:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2025 20:59:56 +0200 From: vermaden Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature To: David Chisnall , Tomoaki AOKI Cc: David G Lawrence , Warner Losh , Michal Meloun , FreeBSD Current X-Mailer: interia.pl/pf09 In-Reply-To: <558632AE-5331-4339-A979-BA6F9B9C0840@FreeBSD.org> References: <20250809062925.GN26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> <929543B2-633E-44B5-B6F6-F292CCEADAB3@freebsd.org> <20250809065247.GO26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> <96820ff6-bdb0-4d25-ad78-502e30b7e479@FreeBSD.org> <20250809185418.7d272536dd5862d0bdfd39c2@dec.sakura.ne.jp> <20250809101145.GS26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> <20250809114244.GU26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> <20250809224836.f7207c3be3fbc8e0fd97f856@dec.sakura.ne.jp> <558632AE-5331-4339-A979-BA6F9B9C0840@FreeBSD.org> X-Originating-IP: 45.148.42.1 Message-Id: List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=interia.pl; s=biztos; t=1754852402; bh=bmRhQVhFxZDdH+/2JCWdnunwe9MKXINt/aFnPyVp1hg=; h=Date:From:Subject:To:Message-Id:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=vq+ZqkhtZIOWAG/xs1hypCXWiSloBdD8k+EzGL5P2ZpZVyJ8iD9UbxLIXpDaRQJK+ 5sroKgByRsF5UCL3tShZk5iAopHPbR3C7aE4kdjY1gsCrg/xPNXerxBE/W7I5AeUpd WCxNvPezlkphxSQxR0SjkzTbteUWF24zBvLlTssg= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4c0Rsm5jPRz4JmJ X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16138, ipnet:217.74.64.0/22, country:PL] Hi. > As Vermaden replied to different thread of > this topic, his issue seems to be "in jail". Its not limited to Jail - I just tested it in a PKGBASE 15-CURRENT Bhyve VM= and result is exactly the same - FreeBSD Base System destroyed and rendere= d unbootable after the `# pkg delete -af` command. > You don=E2=80=99t *upgrade* a container, you create container images > from a description, you create container instances from images. > The issue of uninstalling things in a container never arises, > because you simply destroy the container and create a new one > and import persistent data as volumes. If you want to recreate each Jail or VM everytime instead of upgrading its = Base System and/or packages - then PKGBASE does not change anything here. Y= ou just wipe everything and extract `base.txz` there and add needed package= s with pkg(8) the old way everytime you want to recreate it. Its 'Pets vs Cattle' discussion now ... there are environments where everyt= hing is generated/deployed with infra as code (stored in some git repo for = example) and there are places where everything is still more or less manage= d and upgraded by hands - with 'some' automation and templates for example.= Maybe my approach seem too much 'Pet' oriented - as all the places where I= work(ed) this was 'the way' to do things - my job experiences are more 'on= -premise' then 'cloud-like'. I do not have anything against PKGBASE - as freebsd-update(8) is far from p= erfect - and it does not have to be separate command - it can be a `--base`= switch for example - which will change nothing for OCI containers or autom= ation as that argument will be just included there in the commands - but wi= ll change a lot for people who use it by hand. Is this OCI containers work of dck@ and dfr@ linked somewhere on FreeBSD Wi= ki or somewhere else? Thanks, vermaden Temat: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Data: 2025-08-10 11:33 Nadawca: "David Chisnall" <theraven@FreeBSD.org> Adresat: "Tomoaki AOKI" <junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp>;=20 DW: "David G Lawrence" <dg@dglawrence.com>; "Warner Losh" <imp@bsdimp= .com>; "Michal Meloun" <mmel@freebsd.org>; "FreeBSD Current" <freebsd= -current@freebsd.org>;=20 >=20 > > On 9 Aug 2025, at 14:48, Tomoaki AOKI wrote: >>=20 >> As Vermaden replied to different thread of this topic, his issue >> seems to be "in jail". IIUC, he attempted to deinstall everything >> installed PkgPkg (in contrast with PkgBase) keeping PkgBase world >> in the jail intact, but result was everything including PkgBase >> in the jail was deinstalled and made the jail unkillable. >> And stating there should be kinda "safety net" for such a case. >=20 > It=E2=80=99s worth noting that this is precisely the kind of thing that t= he OCI model avoids entirely. You don=E2=80=99t *upgrade* a container, you cr= eate container images from a description, you create container instances from images. The issue of uninstalling things in a container never arises, because you simply destroy the container and create a new one and import persistent data as volumes. >=20 > dch@, dfr@, and others have done phenomenal work to enable jails as the isolation mechanism for OCI containers and pkgbase is a key part of making this useful. >=20 > David >=20 From nobody Sun Aug 10 21:28:35 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4c0W9Q0kNRz64pfw; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 21:28:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from trashcan@ellael.org) Received: from mx1.enfer-du-nord.net (mx1.enfer-du-nord.net [IPv6:2a01:4f8:1c1b:c620::1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4c0W9P14s6z3Q9w; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 21:28:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from trashcan@ellael.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=ellael.org header.s=dkim header.b=EAYuU+gq; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of trashcan@ellael.org designates 2a01:4f8:1c1b:c620::1 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=trashcan@ellael.org; dmarc=pass (policy=quarantine) header.from=ellael.org Received: from smtpclient.apple (p200300fb4f06dd0151e2f383b07f856c.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [IPv6:2003:fb:4f06:dd01:51e2:f383:b07f:856c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-ECDSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.enfer-du-nord.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4c0W9B2Vq5z12ls; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 23:28:46 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ellael.org; s=dkim; t=1754861326; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=U5CAvsD7X/SoiDMpLJfR056xkz/i7/xoAp9Wrnemf3k=; b=EAYuU+gqLCqOTeVqL6LxdbK8TgFVUu6MHzufpWICMg3mFC+QFVfDygKFXKG/pwai8EvhII 5E5C/qpWdnoPJaxHr4TsUpVQZPVWG2BkW32sK1Gk0hZctDSyGIBUBxAODz0ZVya2k8CFHF MWaosHfYUp4jSTI6dx7z5NSKfDNN0J2SvFvJK2oex0r07HddNH9ryOxR87ktnlDeu2MYol fm34A8xpQxS1cZa+BCLXEBpJ8aC6hADg3AEQCU39iDjqMtc9inK+T/6zVU4YqeDt4FnHOw dfGvTKEfqzsXVc/E1ORNiYuRHAva/DUWwCeZwpbWoi3O9RUCyEdUnsstUheduw== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.700.81\)) Subject: Re: make installworld failes on remotely build /usr/obj From: Michael Grimm In-Reply-To: <36ca6747-8cee-492c-98ee-f1b1d005c38b@m5p.com> Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2025 23:28:35 +0200 Cc: stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Current Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <11ECDC3B-5ECD-4F68-AF12-23B01270ED50@ellael.org> References: <719022A6-6FDE-4682-AC78-7003DCC35DA3@ellael.org> <70449F4A-D432-41EC-85D8-915293C8B269@ellael.org> <36ca6747-8cee-492c-98ee-f1b1d005c38b@m5p.com> To: George Mitchell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.700.81) X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.80 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[ellael.org,quarantine]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a01:4f8:1c1b:c620::1]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[ellael.org:s=dkim]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.20)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[ellael.org:+]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:24940, ipnet:2a01:4f8::/32, country:DE]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org,stable@freebsd.org]; APPLE_MAILER_COMMON(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a01:4f8:1c1b:c620::1:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4c0W9P14s6z3Q9w X-Spamd-Bar: --- George Mitchell wrote: >=20 > On 8/10/25 13:31, Michael Grimm wrote: >> [...] >> It's getting weird: If I do copy /usr/obj from that second server = over to the first server I can installworld at that server. >> [...] >=20 > While I plead ignorance of what's supposed to work, I can say I've > followed the same path to upgrading multiple systems as you have, = except > I've ALWAYS copied both /usr/src AND /usr/obj from my build server to > my other machines as a normal part of updating them. Somewhere along > the line, I assumed that was what everybody did. -- George Thanks for your hint about the "obvious": 1) whiping /usr/src 2) git clone https://git.freebsd.org/src.git --branch stable/14 /usr/src 3) make buildworld && make kernel 4) rsync /usr/obj to remote server Bingo! Now, a 'make installworld' at the remote server doesn't run into = the reported error again. I do not have the slightest clue why and what might have happened while = 'git checkout' operations or what so ever. Anyway, thanks for your hint and all the other input! Regards, Michael From nobody Sun Aug 10 21:28:40 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4c0W9V21F6z64prC; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 21:29:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from trashcan@ellael.org) Received: from mx1.enfer-du-nord.net (mx1.enfer-du-nord.net [IPv6:2a01:4f8:1c1b:c620::1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4c0W9V16q6z3QDn; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 21:28:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from trashcan@ellael.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from smtpclient.apple (p200300fb4f06dd0151e2f383b07f856c.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [IPv6:2003:fb:4f06:dd01:51e2:f383:b07f:856c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-ECDSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.enfer-du-nord.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4c0W9G5YmLz134w; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 23:28:50 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ellael.org; s=dkim; t=1754861330; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=wWtwUR9A+VODMNXS+ObVpjS8n+YkYFWpmUKx7tA0Zsc=; b=pHwXTA0jbovQ6YN7bzM69rUP+rUD557IiB1bm4RcNRLK1l2zuXY8pOFC8aqjvxktTfINP9 KhNVgMRfmaOYfF1aLNA8fj0OKY9j1Ca3m3akBEhkrlWptokTZ9UkeA3/MR+mOxRWDGkiEL VJGl2ti3NKuJbHJoFdy55i2xLy8jZ65o4si3KL3K5157Ku3395z6tXrmZqSyYjEg66mNZW 5VoaxNRYt/fbLsqulX6WboeMvxmwRnmVdAf/q6enSieKFloQr5E17YFIGrCukm4jNQNY6W pLmvu3yE64c0GTwxx2ATAx/4xuYGVadSgxu6Y7RVvpPAh6a45Z/EqlVeSsclkA== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.700.81\)) Subject: Re: make installworld failes on remotely build /usr/obj From: Michael Grimm In-Reply-To: <27511.1754850586@kaos.jnpr.net> Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2025 23:28:40 +0200 Cc: "" , "" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: <719022A6-6FDE-4682-AC78-7003DCC35DA3@ellael.org> <57547.1754844827@kaos.jnpr.net> <409D03F1-0DE4-46A6-BD65-3C5C72556E48@ellael.org> <27511.1754850586@kaos.jnpr.net> To: "Simon J. Gerraty" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.700.81) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4c0W9V16q6z3QDn X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:24940, ipnet:2a01:4f8::/32, country:DE] Simon J. Gerraty wrote: > Michael Grimm wrote: >> Simon J. Gerraty wrote: >>> >>> Michael Grimm wrote: >>>> for many years now I built stable from source and copied /usr/obj to a >>>> second server. There I installed world and kernel. That workflow >>>> recently stopped to work on the second server in 'make installworld': >>> >>> It would be useful if you could say when this last worked as you >>> expected. >> >> Two days ago at main. Seven days ago at stable/14. > > Sorry, I don't see any changes in share/mk in the last few days that > should matter. Thanks for checking. Finally I decided for a clean cut (see my final mail) Thanks and regards, Michael