From nobody Fri Feb 28 16:31:10 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-enterprisewg@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Z4DHK36qhz5ngjT for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2025 16:31:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gwallace@netactuate.com) Received: from mail-ej1-x631.google.com (mail-ej1-x631.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::631]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Z4DHH6qn9z44gl for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2025 16:31:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gwallace@netactuate.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=netactuate-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com header.s=20230601 header.b=wz76lXZf; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=netactuate.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of gwallace@netactuate.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::631 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=gwallace@netactuate.com Received: by mail-ej1-x631.google.com with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-abee50621ecso313353166b.0 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2025 08:31:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=netactuate-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1740760282; x=1741365082; darn=freebsd.org; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject :date:message-id:reply-to; bh=No7/bA6ukhBpX4AYCMFmXqU7+yhimv/1QGsbO1OWoWE=; b=wz76lXZfmoHgLiCvfABuZx4bGJbXuQA43WdOzARBYbj/Osh3iCr+rbN2fZmXiNcZgG SWSK6S+usZCWcIKXQrzhkBx4v3m3gz3ogiOJ12wQT2WNquiI+tArd7Jm/+31Q08FYe1K 8/Php196+Pgh2lGZ2xUyqLLW58qGrzXYInzaqf1xX+KrYoAVZzUYQQV6kSJ+jN7d9DJW WgCYR4QFPpe0RsbA7BDAAsD03zvVmAHT1ED0nW2cl7e2IRxr0ToORhFuCkiyVj+LLDaz Lr9JYZhOnQ5S0haOHqL6yJXUe5X5TspfXmXwnYpIEyZOUYXF8T8wcg5TIPR67VJzni1K 7R9Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1740760282; x=1741365082; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:mime-version:x-gm-message-state :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=No7/bA6ukhBpX4AYCMFmXqU7+yhimv/1QGsbO1OWoWE=; b=vEwzGPh3Jp1btkmqofXhqOKLIUfNyPpWadD8skCSDLiR8JJirj/sh+OoojQeR4F29+ fYQ0jop1zOeLjuOLqOnnlUyMSXK76KekDZ1fV6TuqKH9fG1gQFLBP3cgT1NxXadDQB4L JKp9lh7iIIsCAKDaLeZQj+U6JuBnTQNNDVo+O3dJsgeev4QvMvKHHLk1faKh3kaNlwpQ k0ibuQzO20djc8c+SSyiAX0wR09FJ6pnlK3suiHWSvSevD9WBdtAfkzXiXqUOy8iD9Lg 7zFzzC2LwY3n+74lEmXlMTzZZC4lNCpbkrevqxjzdw99nTpm98u2Upv1CWnK0qjo7dXC pcDA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yw+pp/BFiwKEQ1QzEnuFROcPHqydk1A+KcOYixU157AdxJlNWn7 Ui4fKL/Jzh/RAr0SUNquvHByUiX+PtCQnHfwuvjj7FIc6DAFv4GD15/gCg4Se4XefypRk192tj6 AvrJ0jSKuku5N5icUO7yE4iIwSCBlkT36jtYuV6qTUMmXX9KhsA== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGnctHt+4kNTIA7BKm7juXqcVKcE22mexqHu3G3Dde8PkIlyIYlkMFVYdxK88NiG+ xqZ0RTRovUqrhvyQACPODd9nglKMEHEKLdQ9B48iXkh2xKqZtqSgtHkVe54XjmqpcHawpEPZwuo 2UyPmg6GM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IG4nyplZnu4Vh3ykenQHDj9Bs7IfGwrXxkkqoUhNx0c1StxTvzBS9D7ox+XA3SzcemBaLuhX39m5/pGmCAtQXU= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:fd86:b0:ab7:8d23:1fef with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-abf261fae62mr465814066b.9.1740760281699; Fri, 28 Feb 2025 08:31:21 -0800 (PST) List-Id: FreeBSD as a general-purpose enterprise server List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-enterprisewg List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-BeenThere: freebsd-enterprisewg@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-enterprisewg@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Greg Wallace Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2025 11:31:10 -0500 X-Gm-Features: AQ5f1JqHnj7k2LY2dUjHk483brLOKZ7r_Xy17czeDEHVt5erzoG4v4cc9-Vzsgw Message-ID: Subject: Feb 19 meeting actions, discussion, notes, and recording To: freebsd-enterprisewg@freebsd.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003af2c7062f365614" X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.93 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.970]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.96)[-0.963]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[netactuate.com,none]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[netactuate-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com:s=20230601]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::631:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-enterprisewg@freebsd.org]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[netactuate-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Z4DHH6qn9z44gl X-Spamd-Bar: --- --0000000000003af2c7062f365614 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi All, We met last week on Wednesday. Good attendance and a nice discussion. Before I get to the general update, one action and one point of discussion *Action: *there is an open PR relative to OpenJDK support on FreeBSD - https://github.com/openjdk/jdk/pull/23611 There is plenty of discussion and progress. If you feel so inclined, please upvote to encourage continued movement. *Discussion* Would it make sense to restructure this group? It has always been a bit of a grab bag intended (according to the Charter): *to bring clarity to feature and other gaps that limit enterprise (e.g. business or end user) adoption of FreeBSD as a general-purpose server platform and provide a supportive group to help developers close these gaps.* Reflecting on the year+ of operations of the WG, it seems to me like we have been quite successful at bringing clarity to the gaps that limit enterprise adoption. But I don't think we've been as successful supporting the development efforts to close these gaps. With the benefit of time, my sense is that the only support that really will make any difference in helping developers close the gaps is money, and that was never (really) the remit of the WG. *Options:* 1. Keep it as is and use the WG meetings as a way to track progress and identify additional areas that need work 2. Break it up into a few more focused areas, e.g. 1. Broaden the AD/DNS integration workstream into a SSO WG 2. Break GPU acceleration into its own WG 3. Remove all workstreams where there are existing funded or community efforts (OpenJDK, Sovereign Tech Agency, bhyve manageability) or where the scope of the effort is 100% understood and it's simply a matter of time and persistence (smbfs, GHA) 3. Some combination of 1 & 2 4. Other ideas? Let the group know other options you think make sense Once we have a list of options, I can send out a quick survey to get people's thoughts on the best path. *Meeting Updates* - Tomek shared success running CUDA on FreeBSD with GTX 1060, seeing 6-week to 4-day speedup on computations. Shared this link in the chat if you want to read up: https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/is-opencl-possible-with-the-current-nvidia-driver.78304/#post-688517 - Carmi is having conversations with the AMD GPU folks, including about ROCm on FreeBSD - Cloud Native and Kubernetes - OCI runtime extension for FreeBSD on track for Q1 acceptance - New GitHub org "FreeBSD Cloud Tech" created to manage collaboration on cloud-related repos - Broader interest in cloud native capabilities beyond just containers - No timeline yet for full Kubernetes support - GitHub Actions Support - GitHub team can't prioritize FreeBSD support in 2025 - Community and large users (e.g. Netflix) continuing to apply pressure - Potential influence from Microsoft/Azure being explored - There were also some nice updates from the Foundation on Sovereign Tech Agency-funded projects *Recording: *https://fathom.video/share/YSupzFEYBgrn1GoeauVv99Vz2zLNPg7x Thank you! --- Greg Wallace --0000000000003af2c7062f365614 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi All,

We met last week on = Wednesday. Good attendance and a nice discussion.

= Before I get to the general update, one action and one point of discussion<= /div>

Action: there is an open PR relative to Ope= nJDK support on FreeBSD - https://github.com/openjdk/jdk/pull/23611

There is plenty of discussion and progress. If you feel so inclined, pleas= e upvote to encourage continued movement.

Discu= ssion

Would it make sense to restructure this = group? It has always been a bit of a grab bag intended (according to the Ch= arter):=C2=A0

to bring clarity to feature and other g= aps that limit enterprise (e.g. business or end user) adoption of FreeBSD a= s a general-purpose server platform and provide a supportive group to help = developers close these gaps.

Re= flecting on the year+ of operations of the WG, it seems to me like we have = been quite successful at bringing clarity to the gaps that limit enterprise= adoption. But I don't think we've been as successful supporting=C2= =A0the development efforts to close these gaps.=C2=A0

<= div>With the benefit of time, my sense is that the only support that really= will make any difference in helping developers close the gaps is money, an= d that was never (really) the remit of the WG.=C2=A0

Options:
  1. Keep it as is and use the WG meetings = as a way to track progress and identify additional areas that need work
  2. Break it up into a few more focused areas, e.g.
    1. Broaden th= e AD/DNS integration workstream into a SSO WG
    2. Break GPU acceleratio= n into its own WG
    3. Remove all workstreams where there are existing f= unded or community efforts (OpenJDK, Sovereign Tech Agency, bhyve manageabi= lity) or where the scope of the effort is 100% understood and it's simp= ly a matter of time and persistence=C2=A0(smbfs, GHA)
  3. Some com= bination of 1 & 2
  4. Other ideas? Let the group know other options= you think make sense
Once we have a list of options, I= can send out a quick survey to get people's thoughts on the best path.=

Meeting Updates
  • T= omek shared success running CUDA on FreeBSD with GTX 1060, seeing 6-week to= 4-day speedup on computations. Shared this link in the chat if you want to= read up: https://forums.freebsd.o= rg/threads/is-opencl-possible-with-the-current-nvidia-driver.78304/#post-68= 8517
  • Carmi is having conversations with the AMD GPU folks, = including about ROCm on FreeBSD
  • Cloud Native and Kubernetes
  • OCI runtime extension for FreeBSD on track for Q1 acceptance
  • N= ew GitHub org "FreeBSD Cloud Tech" created to manage collaboratio= n on cloud-related repos
  • Broader interest in cloud native capabilit= ies beyond just containers
  • No timeline yet for full Kubernetes supp= ort
  • GitHub Actions Support
    • GitHub team can't p= rioritize FreeBSD support in 2025
    • Community and large users (e.g. N= etflix) continuing to apply pressure
    • Potential influence from Micro= soft/Azure being explored
  • =C2=A0There were also some nice upda= tes from the Foundation=C2=A0on Sovereign Tech Agency-funded projects
    • <= /ul>

    Thank you!

    <= /div>
    ---
    Greg Wallace
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[209.85.219.172]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 3f1490d57ef6-e60a3aafebcsm1148321276.51.2025.02.28.08.41.12 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 28 Feb 2025 08:41:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yb1-f172.google.com with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-e3c8ae3a3b2so1755951276.0 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2025 08:41:12 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6902:1883:b0:e60:5d76:f7a7 with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-e60b2f3340cmr4128782276.47.1740760871842; Fri, 28 Feb 2025 08:41:11 -0800 (PST) List-Id: FreeBSD as a general-purpose enterprise server List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-enterprisewg List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-BeenThere: freebsd-enterprisewg@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-enterprisewg@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Gleb Popov Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2025 19:40:46 +0300 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: X-Gm-Features: AQ5f1Jo7hB0BxSlmxvAqNFFy4cAqs2RtHL1AZ6OHWWkIbIV9XlKGPAArvHazRxs Message-ID: Subject: Re: Feb 19 meeting actions, discussion, notes, and recording To: Greg Wallace Cc: freebsd-enterprisewg@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Z4DVd2Y8yz46J8 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- On Fri, Feb 28, 2025 at 7:31=E2=80=AFPM Greg Wallace wrote: > > Options: > > Keep it as is and use the WG meetings as a way to track progress and iden= tify additional areas that need work > Break it up into a few more focused areas, e.g. Speaking of the mailing list, I think we certainly should keep things as they are, because even with all these areas the list is still quite low-traffic. From nobody Fri Feb 28 16:44:03 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-enterprisewg@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Z4DZ92cNHz5nj3X for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2025 16:44:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gwallace@netactuate.com) Received: from mail-ed1-x534.google.com (mail-ed1-x534.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::534]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Z4DZ90nntz4750 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2025 16:44:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gwallace@netactuate.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-ed1-x534.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5e5050d19e9so1381741a12.3 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2025 08:44:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=netactuate-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1740761055; x=1741365855; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=VeHOxPxO/ZHkRJoleuMUzChhTe6E1CYm6hiaPFb8wdg=; b=JB8yTAA1BhouaSrsEKDS8x8+0Ji6jPv/Tq/5G+Ii2aXdj1LS2tK7aMBKdATHdzCJQS Qc4OmEQB+KWpgtumOhjuhzjKkYP/rO74LX9hGnCqkEg4Vx/F1AVsCobc4OguFj7CkaTg /VKRRghZ3Qpy2aq4LS5qRL8Z1gqihHrYD4n0weLQT9sSitg6m5+hr9z+fz3sM+r2046L aqUFqprH0TG/PSBHPoHJbPftldaf0fi5vkqPnTgDxqfFMcWjXQSyREI9KaI8FgygdSDy 5f3IKDPy3a0HQZf0pMmgt16SaV1aS9kOGKRp8yiL3vpzbTZ3s0IGq0ayJDHpBptDR7ME d1jA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1740761055; x=1741365855; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=VeHOxPxO/ZHkRJoleuMUzChhTe6E1CYm6hiaPFb8wdg=; b=DWvztIkFcalQ3HopwsSsTMYXGNli/WrGvm+8vBl2Zl5MPZgSdi9R1LzE2DsRfwEHhv B3o5bqPvuUaR1AX2qc/dy8QFJmsi+QZP0jUunRDBQALxtiNLD74MEKptnxLcPl+0pKRp 9KnKWpQvmrhmCMUCvPf/N23ZQbJz4e/hI8ViWC9tgqu09Mx8aMZeVoTtw4FP8tEnAaVF GvOjiK1fDjxyx2O1rTGflWadR0fVplJDmWuxCne+jhRBu10eg839IH/JSjYRY0FdDt7i SSuyZmXhRg+1CE/IjGrAKonhRZ8zhoxskrpEap/PNNME9dSkjfxBTV+15u/IHBFjXdpX +wSQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Ywn+nHbd1WPjYrxkmL3GLVjKz1+QTG47UFiSMVKlcKcqeTwwUiN IRpaq90CVK7pQZpJPuYP5Clj8UegPVPvJQaUxtQI+/eexugl0XKEQzVCxAQ4RvOTAo6DuWs+oMs LHjBG6Gyw48ly8xb7A+3InECtY3b+MaDl2d9+BQSlxWiD1MI= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncuIQ6fNUlv4sjQKDHEwSQyLUmZtNzXI/+rd3GdN72BA+hLTvOEhVgYR+0Lrzh2 6qPhTCBQe/vIsAaodIBowE1SGHlrC9Ms4H+mAzHlcZ/jwHHWgcImu5+b4EEW0ZqaMQZOUdgrSej rOXO6soIo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHXhADUQHlpmCw7OUo6/9LKb+nq/dVU92t3Tz7OoRtKlf/7fVzAMQ2HHxbdpFNLlgODRNp6xlj0oVAY4g4I4XA= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:7da8:b0:abf:13f4:f93 with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-abf25d92008mr419059866b.12.1740761055449; Fri, 28 Feb 2025 08:44:15 -0800 (PST) List-Id: FreeBSD as a general-purpose enterprise server List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-enterprisewg List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-BeenThere: freebsd-enterprisewg@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-enterprisewg@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Greg Wallace Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2025 11:44:03 -0500 X-Gm-Features: AQ5f1Jqdld_o4Ndo1EvRGK-kjy8emk9QxOBJbyzsRQkKB4JzhuSUMs4hxV7GuT4 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Feb 19 meeting actions, discussion, notes, and recording To: Gleb Popov Cc: freebsd-enterprisewg@freebsd.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000598a99062f3684e9" X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Z4DZ90nntz4750 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- --000000000000598a99062f3684e9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable thanks Gleb, Yes you're right, the list is low traffic. I've wondered why this is. It's honestly always been that way. I wonder if it's because these areas are generally well-understood and so there aren't a lot of questions. ANd also, since the WG is not your typical developer-oriented WG, we don't see the typical discussion around code and approaches.... IDK, just throwing out some ideas. But I'm more than happy to support this group in whatever ways folks think make sense --- Greg Wallace On Fri, Feb 28, 2025 at 11:41=E2=80=AFAM Gleb Popov wr= ote: > On Fri, Feb 28, 2025 at 7:31=E2=80=AFPM Greg Wallace > wrote: > > > > Options: > > > > Keep it as is and use the WG meetings as a way to track progress and > identify additional areas that need work > > Break it up into a few more focused areas, e.g. > > Speaking of the mailing list, I think we certainly should keep things > as they are, because even with all these areas the list is still quite > low-traffic. > --000000000000598a99062f3684e9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    thanks Gleb,

    Yes you're = right, the list is low traffic. I've wondered why this is. It's hon= estly always been that way.

    I wonder if it's b= ecause these areas are generally well-understood and so there aren't a = lot of questions. ANd also, since the WG is not your typical developer-orie= nted WG, we don't see the typical discussion around code and approaches= ....

    IDK, just throwing out some ideas.
    =
    But I'm more than happy to support this group in whateve= r ways folks think make sense

    = ---
    Greg Wallace

    On Fri, Feb 28, 2025 at 11:41=E2=80=AFAM Gleb Popov <arrowd@freebsd.org> wrote:
    On Fri, Feb 28, 2025 at 7:31=E2= =80=AFPM Greg Wallace <gwallace@netactuate.com> wrote:
    >
    > Options:
    >
    > Keep it as is and use the WG meetings as a way to track progress and i= dentify additional areas that need work
    > Break it up into a few more focused areas, e.g.

    Speaking of the mailing list, I think we certainly should keep things
    as they are, because even with all these areas the list is still quite
    low-traffic.
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([2601:1c0:5680:2a92:4dd5:a22c:8afc:4c66]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d2e1a72fcca58-734a003ec5csm4231805b3a.144.2025.02.28.11.06.28 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 28 Feb 2025 11:06:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2025 11:06:27 -0800 List-Id: FreeBSD as a general-purpose enterprise server List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-enterprisewg List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-BeenThere: freebsd-enterprisewg@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-enterprisewg@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: Feb 19 meeting actions, discussion, notes, and recording To: enterprisewg@freebsd.org References: Content-Language: en-US From: Michael Dexter In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.92 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.986]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.51)[-0.512]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[callfortesting-org.20230601.gappssmtp.com:s=20230601]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.12)[-0.120]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[callfortesting.org]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::634:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[enterprisewg@freebsd.org]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[callfortesting-org.20230601.gappssmtp.com:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Z4HkH3KQYz3ZD5 X-Spamd-Bar: - Greg, All, Than you for your efforts! On 2/28/25 8:31 AM, Greg Wallace wrote: > # Break it up into a few more focused areas, e.g. > 1. Broaden the AD/DNS integration workstream into a SSO WG > 2. Break GPU acceleration into its own WG > 3. Remove all workstreams where there are existing funded or community > efforts (OpenJDK, Sovereign Tech Agency, bhyve manageability) or > where the scope of the effort is 100% understood and it's simply a > matter of time and persistence (smbfs, GHA) > # Other ideas? Let the group know other options you think make sense As you know, the Production User calls* have identified real-world production needs and coordinated funding for new features for inclusion in base, that were either greenfield or abandoned via GSoC and other efforts. We currently have a developer available to assess and selectively implement some very-specific projects of various sizes: * A feature audit of bhyve on FreeBSD and illumos * Platform spoofing, for lack of a better term, allowing bhyve appear to be another hypervisor such as KVM * An EDK2 Update * Port SeaBIOS to bhyve * Revive the UPB libvdsk code * Revive the para-virtualized clock code Are you open to our formalizing some of these and establishing a funding mechanism with the EWG and Foundation? All the best, Michael Dexter * https://youtube.com/@callfortesting | https://callfortesting.org From nobody Fri Feb 28 19:16:39 2025 X-Original-To: enterprisewg@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Z4HyG2SnLz5nxhm for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2025 19:16:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gwallace@netactuate.com) Received: from mail-ej1-x62c.google.com (mail-ej1-x62c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::62c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Z4HyF0scSz3ZvV for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2025 19:16:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gwallace@netactuate.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-ej1-x62c.google.com with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-aaf0f1adef8so478668666b.3 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2025 11:16:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=netactuate-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1740770211; x=1741375011; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=3NyvMcnO9mTRuK3me2mo2MM/WicMR0Vba9mJfS7VfXU=; b=C8Q/g3sqWBXgoI39Z1ydi9+tIkJKVpVPgoHdbCmZnWVQXGjDghyXTMv4EcRTtS/Ljy aaW7/Mim57Ncy+XxAqXK0dJ/Yo03mol1SrissrZS/ZxTUk2WnTixN0ccV0a8rixMXLoN 8/lkPr8ZQ9VvayV/YcXKwB8V3CMKZkBEiqPM8PJNhuo0sho15XFX8tAIfWkI5Yf5u2tw z6m45shJDd4w7CYYHrB3LVUcoRFsAgC/zDznA+p/PgoRDzoEEk/7T0dts7j1tQAcxxjR CON7iA6isElt/YODoWceMpduL0778ZbVAXJe9ms5YVFE19zM79KvVAL1DKWdQbWLNUeb rn6g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1740770211; x=1741375011; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=3NyvMcnO9mTRuK3me2mo2MM/WicMR0Vba9mJfS7VfXU=; b=VnBV7s42CuEIEwuSDAKoloCQeNM5qloFU3Pdd4C5yBjCz3k2rUMEvrPy9VB6Qq/Hrh AIMoCU6jHZpMc8Zj9PwUj3SYgs3VB/Yxa9Hh7Z4FjNprLpdS/5WGmHacWWv5uY7gHpUe PlamMf957HYjoGUraYV/f3FGyv7bSE9CoCzH417hTwxGMMj1NtuPdrWqVuyuT+qO9nI+ iV1IBfAKJ00iimv8/9taRfS4yuWZEk/hlKN2czIGyWIy/DZQQ8hMFqF2SGt6nBeM+qQO PtGyLFhcnnDPdNlqnTSdSN1zorEV5IHzpbdyXvsvy4Da+eONQbEsnuS6VcB7NUQ2peSz /oeQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yyn48iiBPUPlbMu3Pcvv0lRQ8JZHPpu7TOj6W6zsO+sYwytn2sG z+H2lrTRt/7bIoaAkxnZyLe7ny6+9Xfxp/D2wY2FErwlppIp++GUotw/U9di4fXM5K1V4ZiTLUb LZXsQ2xar5f7E694qz0qAp5KXs/Nc4KZqzbqIwW4uAuW+3dE= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncvu9WofSzUmNjyXr+3ylbWzjSbVU5BS3K8OfvV5QnaNJrWIBvZ4nZ/k0Rvubrk h2xb4K6zo4GINKdvDXaRafrkSgemJF5L1be/3nS14DZJzgwCz1YFp0RB1g/lKj9E7KQtxK1rIm/ GRmP92d9yFGM9+mBqf4Hg0jNxgp5U= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFgBJcS4CUMDd4J4UKxeyVTq8U431Js1jjQmAabhABlt9sHjGxcZPkvtIClxZ4LJKv5jLNzTklt9vu6abFfC1M= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:c103:b0:aaf:c259:7f6 with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-abf265ed13bmr467092166b.45.1740770210127; Fri, 28 Feb 2025 11:16:50 -0800 (PST) List-Id: FreeBSD as a general-purpose enterprise server List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-enterprisewg List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-BeenThere: freebsd-enterprisewg@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-enterprisewg@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Greg Wallace Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2025 14:16:39 -0500 X-Gm-Features: AQ5f1JrJxMlyW03yAwWEtkPN4D_KMGqQ6GQ4vMncmEeRnI_XKTDhB-_hILLQZB0 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Feb 19 meeting actions, discussion, notes, and recording To: Michael Dexter Cc: enterprisewg@freebsd.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000002c52c062f38a6e9" X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Z4HyF0scSz3ZvV X-Spamd-Bar: ---- --00000000000002c52c062f38a6e9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Michael, I'm not sure I totally follow, but I *think* you're suggesting that the bhyve manageability workstream from EWG be absorbed into the production users call. If so, I personally have no objection to this. As far as funding and any relationship with the Foundation, since I no longer work at the Foundation I can't speak to this other than to say I don't have any objection. --- Greg Wallace On Fri, Feb 28, 2025 at 2:06=E2=80=AFPM Michael Dexter wrote: > Greg, All, > > Than you for your efforts! > > On 2/28/25 8:31 AM, Greg Wallace wrote: > > # Break it up into a few more focused areas, e.g. > > 1. Broaden the AD/DNS integration workstream into a SSO WG > > 2. Break GPU acceleration into its own WG > > 3. Remove all workstreams where there are existing funded or community > > efforts (OpenJDK, Sovereign Tech Agency, bhyve manageability) or > > where the scope of the effort is 100% understood and it's simply a > > matter of time and persistence (smbfs, GHA) > > # Other ideas? Let the group know other options you think make sense > > As you know, the Production User calls* have identified real-world > production needs and coordinated funding for new features for inclusion > in base, that were either greenfield or abandoned via GSoC and other > efforts. > > We currently have a developer available to assess and selectively > implement some very-specific projects of various sizes: > > * A feature audit of bhyve on FreeBSD and illumos > * Platform spoofing, for lack of a better term, allowing bhyve appear to > be another hypervisor such as KVM > * An EDK2 Update > * Port SeaBIOS to bhyve > * Revive the UPB libvdsk code > * Revive the para-virtualized clock code > > Are you open to our formalizing some of these and establishing a funding > mechanism with the EWG and Foundation? > > All the best, > > Michael Dexter > > * https://youtube.com/@callfortesting | https://callfortesting.org > > --00000000000002c52c062f38a6e9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi Michael,

    I'm not sure= I totally follow, but I *think* you're suggesting that the bhyve manag= eability workstream from EWG be absorbed into the production users call.

    If so, I personally have no objection to this. As fa= r as funding and any relationship with the Foundation, since I no longer wo= rk at the Foundation I can't speak to this other than to say I don'= t have any objection.

    ---
    Greg Wallace


    On Fri, Feb 28, 2025 at 2:06=E2=80=AFPM Michael Dexter <editor@callfortesting.org> wrote:
    =
    Greg, All,

    Than you for your efforts!

    On 2/28/25 8:31 AM, Greg Wallace wrote:
    > # Break it up into a few more focused areas, e.g.
    >=C2=A0 1. Broaden the AD/DNS integration workstream into a SSO WG
    >=C2=A0 2. Break GPU acceleration into its own WG
    >=C2=A0 3. Remove all workstreams where there are existing funded or com= munity
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0efforts (OpenJDK, Sovereign Tech Agency, bhyve mana= geability) or
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0where the scope of the effort is 100% understood an= d it's simply a
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0matter of time and persistence=C2=A0(smbfs, GHA) > # Other ideas? Let the group know other options you think make sense
    As you know, the Production User calls* have identified real-world
    production needs and coordinated funding for new features for inclusion in base, that were either greenfield or abandoned via GSoC and other
    efforts.

    We currently have a developer available to assess and selectively
    implement some very-specific projects of various sizes:

    * A feature audit of bhyve on FreeBSD and illumos
    * Platform spoofing, for lack of a better term, allowing bhyve appear to be another hypervisor such as KVM
    * An EDK2 Update
    * Port SeaBIOS to bhyve
    * Revive the UPB libvdsk code
    * Revive the para-virtualized clock code

    Are you open to our formalizing some of these and establishing a funding mechanism with the EWG and Foundation?

    All the best,

    Michael Dexter

    * https://youtube.com/@callfortesting | https://callfortesti= ng.org

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That is an attractive approach of many possible ones. Chris M has de facto played this role regardless of the exact affiliation. Chris, perhaps you can speak from the EWR perspective? All the best, Michael Dexter From nobody Sat Mar 1 09:57:43 2025 X-Original-To: enterprisewg@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Z4gVw506Sz59K5m for ; Sat, 01 Mar 2025 09:58:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@ny-central.org) Received: from mail2.ny-central.com (mail2.ny-central.com [173.212.246.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Z4gVw1kS8z3Q0h for ; Sat, 01 Mar 2025 09:58:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@ny-central.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ny-central.com DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 mail2.ny-central.com 077421B69D7 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=ny-central.org; s=202405; t=1740823079; bh=oJIdY3cbjFjcIYsX7wJILK1xz9rNjsUkQuHXG8DISOg=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; z=Date:=20Sat,=201=20Mar=202025=2010:57:43=20+0100=20(CET)|From:=20 Chris=20Moerz=20|To:=20Michael=20Dexter=20 |cc:=20Greg=20Wallace=20,=20enterprisewg@freebsd.org|Subject:=20Re:=20Feb=2019=2 0meeting=20actions,=20discussion,=20notes,=20and=20recording|In-Re ply-To:=20<4866ea67-fa85-45c9-8014-8fd4ce2ffce3@callfortesting.org >|References:=20=20=20=0D=0A=20<4866ea67-fa85-45c9-8014-8fd4ce2ffce3@ca llfortesting.org>; b=uwy95eg+G1TxxF1aK7hKCB+Rw42upgAvNH4ErIiHH/JBwp4RvUtTAp64gakvfAPMp t+ysomLWmAzlf5ikjqUOM4g6y3tvIEYnmDifynKwit0q+Hfo1+QZqqg7t+z9Z43lcC Wm7xqE8Ew3aO1CtbiwzNtJaUhTNufKpoAQPfjMR+/9AZW6YoxZeOo1l/q9U0Z5EPqS 1Hs7+QXRC3FXG584zgCyGdRUMeM0qIuBKHMaYY0+fryYl6DYSU+Up+dabmKPl51Stn ERTaBVgXRzKmbjKulkhOGi+Lo37gu426yFmzOKQZnomPEcMudUrXRP+gzznk1h705x zsEqAay8H1vjwMGN+F6czGhABGxGxJTkXrdFSVcP+2WIBNslQYSNs5BWcWWhc+JEBj M4PMCMeyzzV9PrPT2jB37tQpJNWBeVekdiHt1tobQrQkhgnn89ZaCBT6tkF2xItVtr 5eeXtk5c5H3mAtxjDM7QceJQHF8hTAuXhLaUk7JpKggj/rBdvDc00Z29GRggnry3Me F2ggIulgcZ5Jng7h0+LcvSG2xrPBK5T7VYro1g9JKF06fjRxWxdXFcUk5PffRhHVSZ IU6sb/xpjYeS2AR2PAqJ2nBLFx7+TldWdvXUetB6qizDljowc9ZOYD4ZFASmHdS9h0 rXYhQj60/CU5vZj4hymv2aKQ= Received: from tenforward.ny-central.local (unknown [192.168.11.104]) by mail2.ny-central.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 077421B69D7; Sat, 01 Mar 2025 10:57:48 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2025 10:57:43 +0100 (CET) From: Chris Moerz To: Michael Dexter cc: Greg Wallace , enterprisewg@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Feb 19 meeting actions, discussion, notes, and recording In-Reply-To: <4866ea67-fa85-45c9-8014-8fd4ce2ffce3@callfortesting.org> Message-ID: <34f8799e-7cd6-1185-5c21-2791908c6bd3@ny-central.org> References: <4866ea67-fa85-45c9-8014-8fd4ce2ffce3@callfortesting.org> List-Id: FreeBSD as a general-purpose enterprise server List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-enterprisewg List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-BeenThere: freebsd-enterprisewg@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-enterprisewg@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=4.0.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.1 (2024-03-26) on mail2.ny-central.com X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:51167, ipnet:173.212.240.0/21, country:DE] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Z4gVw1kS8z3Q0h X-Spamd-Bar: ---- On Fri, 28 Feb 2025, Michael Dexter wrote: > On 2/28/25 11:16 AM, Greg Wallace wrote: > > I'm not sure I totally follow, but I *think* you're suggesting that the > > bhyve manageability workstream from EWG be absorbed into the production > > users call. > > That is an attractive approach of many possible ones. Chris M has de facto > played this role regardless of the exact affiliation. > > Chris, perhaps you can speak from the EWR perspective? > TLDR: yup. Let's do it. ... Admittedly, lately I have failed to put the necessary presence and energy into the bhyve manageability work stream, which would be required to move this forward consistently. I agree with Greg, that this is as much about resources (whether people or money makes no difference in my mind) as it is about focusing activities through a forum like regular calls or a mailing list. Michael, in my opinion you have done more for bhyve (and jails, and ZFS, and so much more) than I could ever hope to achieve. A brief review of all recordings of the bhyve calls and hours of conversations about state management and various approaches to bhyve manageability will easily prove that your weekly calls are already the go-to-place for in-depth knowledge about bhyve and bhyve manageability. The EWG calls with their monthly schedule vs the weekly bhyve calls condense that conversation around the state of things, summarizing ongoing activities and tracking progress and thus servce a slightly different purpose - as Greg pointed out. The topic of "where/how to track/manage what?" is very much becoming more important to clarify. We now have an Enterprise Working Group, weekly bhyve calls, the Laptop and Desktop Working Group; then we've established a OCI testing group derived from that and we're lately also looking at the formation of a UX testing group. We'll need some kind of governance to manage with overlaps to avoid conflict and double work or rework. Greg recently pointed this out in one of the Enterprise Working Group calls and we were already planning to draft some suggestions for how to address this. It's on me that we didn't manage to meet and discuss this yet - I'm still committed however. Maybe it makes sense to include you in the conversation, Michael? Proof in point: one item on the Laptop and Desktop Workgroup agenda is improving virt-manager use with bhyve. Obviously, that connects to both your calls. Regardless of how/where it get's done - we all benefit. We simply should avoid working on it in parallel in multiple places. You also independently raised the question, whether virt-manager wouldn't be a good path forward for bhyve manageability, Michael. Clearly we all see the writing on the wall. I'd like to suggest we (Michael, Greg, Alice, me, anyone else?) figure out a draft for dealing with overlaps and also how to address the "elephant in the room" that occurs now and then: when things fizzle out and get orphaned, we need to be brave enough to park things and stop tracking continuous non-progress. Once we have that draft, we can publish it for community feedback and from there. What do you think? And attempting to answer you starting question: I think it's fine to move conversation about bhyve manageability into the weekly bhyve calls. The detailed and technical conversations were already happening there - there's no denying that. Reporting the big picture progress in the EWG (if there is any) would still benefit the community, but we should also admit it, if there is little progress and archive activities if they lack resources for the moment. Holy wall of text Batman... anyone who's made it down here: congrats! chris From nobody Sat Mar 1 19:22:03 2025 X-Original-To: enterprisewg@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Z4w1q6rYjz5pcKr for ; Sat, 01 Mar 2025 19:22:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from editor@callfortesting.org) Received: from mail-oa1-x33.google.com (mail-oa1-x33.google.com [IPv6:2001:4860:4864:20::33]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Z4w1q5B8Kz4Ly3 for ; Sat, 01 Mar 2025 19:22:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from editor@callfortesting.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-oa1-x33.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-2bcceee7a5eso1864022fac.0 for ; Sat, 01 Mar 2025 11:22:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=callfortesting-org.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1740856926; x=1741461726; darn=freebsd.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:content-language :references:cc:to:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=DBk4SBCkoalUbuSqdis+T/q5ekGP2ftDAQOwOc6lnK0=; b=2I4hPfwjLjB5Q8qMpUxAq1nK80re/VLda4SaQvs+mg+zUJB2Y6mwO28E6/yiru2C/G dHfQ7KXZzyUOGp+08e5YJWErElqDzA/nDD0Ch7lngdfl4U7dfyPs27k2go9CK9iZgxbU fV8nwLnqbLqv1K0M3aiuUPJ3H3sKjBtAjLASs9hzk3CBF/TfEV1acVW+ec4YymelDQa9 LbBrn9Ox/CudIPtvk64wLQOHDrMcXYpZQ7ImiR3htdnKPavPlnJ5FuHAwggtPL2zTO9C HAGMcE26SAnikg0QzXLKoGRLFjzBso7kBiafuSINi/RLb5+c8NE7pHXzyzeVzAD9aUNH opzg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1740856926; x=1741461726; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:content-language :references:cc:to:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=DBk4SBCkoalUbuSqdis+T/q5ekGP2ftDAQOwOc6lnK0=; b=h9zuuX7q473PmA5ySEAou79daL1q514sQ3OKOz1SRQOz2mp4ACGXCJs8RH2/zra8XK wHD91iHYFXAhSTcH0w5uVB7nfe+tU/UCwPkNKq5eQoIoW0RO+pHXfjCCI+YJQRNYTaw7 LTsDcDFIq5qSqv21kgWN2NgvzgKlG/uCCbGMi52+vAgNCAe2Al/kPkr+WguH9LEBGOgf /BNpd09jnh3FF/JX4T/HsM3+2KM42/j1U9JBibeWV8Gy8UZbv0BnCsplA0uTUXUG+8Lc Ur1Z64PBu+Teu9+AhR6HrR5GH0BGhFjveF8S5768BlU7pu6ZbH0O+It1HHUcj90HuRDn dh4w== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCW7bcCyoF2qI7FPbPmniQhHaSotLOr2EYQB9GEu/vhz7p1YFUjFVJovAQ/lICfgU3POuqqWojRipCrRJEM=@freebsd.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyWP9PsRYjTR4CQlNnm7se7ZKcv9JK7rFsoR58rAru7HbrooggZ EwUrtzCZfyllXSNpNuZ2J0VO3e7TyzLpdrloDd+FVAg8tXn7LrDhhQY2/+a6TPA= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncu6s6o9o3tsU24o5vjbMc+O7OFpFlDuU4I4tIqAU1ErhZr8LfHh70vpEO/wkW1 eapA7KPBw15NNUS1cUs+sOuDJi+VmNTcQNnUvpZ8tCsxZrYLoAojQn7F9xmEtTtBMYxmZCFZf7K 5SGzoTMNYjdAAXKXfpjpnlrveYKUTfdZjPlxSBnc6ywnVtTEKbINx2vC6Ucguwpj6cqkBF2EbnF 9zaE3QaiSrvn01sySdyvgPKOR5anVz0qJ8148EmdC83FjAzE4eTVFhUVCfVi4VdiVXxxnVjeUex UK/0J8USyjtkK1dIFnc8Glem48OOI3SLMVhORZ7U8OU8oH7GQ3+m9UGm8cWZ8qma5JYnFaUoahK YFt8Nwmgck72W0XN5zDyWz5/fNtlfcetZQ3ejEe9gjw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHW6xQajGzJKPs/UAygkDZyig30l+G4vg0x4Zr16Kv1qvZrlU5B1P8j/KRY/Gu2DzBhgVX/gg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:71d0:b0:2b8:3a2a:af31 with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-2c177eb1184mr3775167fac.0.1740856926238; Sat, 01 Mar 2025 11:22:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPV6:2601:1c0:5680:2a92:5c7c:4ef0:e0d7:1d15? ([2601:1c0:5680:2a92:5c7c:4ef0:e0d7:1d15]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 586e51a60fabf-2c15c3cf6cesm1260797fac.32.2025.03.01.11.22.03 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 01 Mar 2025 11:22:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <674be207-ac3d-48c8-af17-c521ec26bef9@callfortesting.org> Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2025 11:22:03 -0800 List-Id: FreeBSD as a general-purpose enterprise server List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-enterprisewg List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-BeenThere: freebsd-enterprisewg@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-enterprisewg@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: Feb 19 meeting actions, discussion, notes, and recording To: Chris Moerz Cc: Greg Wallace , enterprisewg@freebsd.org References: <4866ea67-fa85-45c9-8014-8fd4ce2ffce3@callfortesting.org> <34f8799e-7cd6-1185-5c21-2791908c6bd3@ny-central.org> Content-Language: en-US From: Michael Dexter In-Reply-To: <34f8799e-7cd6-1185-5c21-2791908c6bd3@ny-central.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2001:4860:4864::/48, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Z4w1q5B8Kz4Ly3 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- On 3/1/25 1:57 AM, Chris Moerz wrote: > On Fri, 28 Feb 2025, Michael Dexter wrote: >> On 2/28/25 11:16 AM, Greg Wallace wrote: >>> I'm not sure I totally follow, but I *think* you're suggesting that the >>> bhyve manageability workstream from EWG be absorbed into the production >>> users call. >> >> That is an attractive approach of many possible ones. Chris M has de facto >> played this role regardless of the exact affiliation. >> >> Chris, perhaps you can speak from the EWR perspective? >> > > TLDR: yup. Let's do it. > > ... > > Admittedly, lately I have failed to put the necessary presence and energy > into the bhyve manageability work stream, which would be required to move > this forward consistently. I agree with Greg, that this is as much about > resources (whether people or money makes no difference in my mind) as it > is about focusing activities through a forum like regular calls or a > mailing list. > > Michael, in my opinion you have done more for bhyve (and jails, and ZFS, > and so much more) than I could ever hope to achieve. A brief review of all > recordings of the bhyve calls and hours of conversations about state > management and various approaches to bhyve manageability will easily prove > that your weekly calls are already the go-to-place for in-depth knowledge > about bhyve and bhyve manageability. > > The EWG calls with their monthly schedule vs the weekly bhyve > calls condense that conversation around the state of things, summarizing > ongoing activities and tracking progress and thus servce a slightly > different purpose - as Greg pointed out. > > The topic of "where/how to track/manage what?" is very much becoming more > important to clarify. We now have an Enterprise Working Group, weekly > bhyve calls, the Laptop and Desktop Working Group; then we've established > a OCI testing group derived from that and we're lately also looking at the > formation of a UX testing group. We'll need some kind of governance to > manage with overlaps to avoid conflict and double work or rework. > > Greg recently pointed this out in one of the Enterprise Working Group > calls and we were already planning to draft some suggestions for how to > address this. It's on me that we didn't manage to meet and discuss this > yet - I'm still committed however. Maybe it makes sense to include you in > the conversation, Michael? > > Proof in point: one item on the Laptop and Desktop Workgroup agenda is > improving virt-manager use with bhyve. Obviously, that connects to both > your calls. Regardless of how/where it get's done - we all benefit. We > simply should avoid working on it in parallel in multiple places. > > You also independently raised the question, whether virt-manager wouldn't > be a good path forward for bhyve manageability, Michael. Clearly we all > see the writing on the wall. > > I'd like to suggest we (Michael, Greg, Alice, me, anyone else?) figure out > a draft for dealing with overlaps and also how to address the "elephant in > the room" that occurs now and then: when things fizzle out and get > orphaned, we need to be brave enough to park things and stop tracking > continuous non-progress. Once we have that draft, we can publish it for > community feedback and from there. > > What do you think? > > And attempting to answer you starting question: I think it's fine to move > conversation about bhyve manageability into the weekly bhyve calls. The > detailed and technical conversations were already happening there - > there's no denying that. Reporting the big picture progress in the EWG (if > there is any) would still benefit the community, but we should also admit > it, if there is little progress and archive activities if they lack > resources for the moment. > > Holy wall of text Batman... anyone who's made it down here: congrats! Thank you for the kind words Chris. With the Production User calls predating the EWR and establishing to what appears to be a sustainable model that has fostered EWG/PUC cross-attendance, my takeaway is that the Production Users should further formalize our projects that seek funding as developers become available. Many of these projects are quite small by software development industry standards and fortunately the Foundation has a clear project proposal and funding mechanism once a project is formalized. What is missing is a small budget to incubate fundable projects. Creating a Statement of Work takes time and subject matter expertise by individual developers, who typically not have the advantage of consulting company infrastructure (or disadvantage of the added cost of that infrastructure). This community-centric funding model is probably the most efficient available anywhere and gently crosses the volunteer/contractor line, rather than reaffirming the small user/big vendor divide that dominates many communities. I have a loyal group that contributes from time to time but am currently incubating this work out of pocket. I will keep doing this and others are welcome to join. I encourage payments directly to developers because ultimately, I just want to return to simply being a user. All the best, Michael Dexter