From nobody Mon Jun 16 07:28:44 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bLM7c1PWQz5Vk2m for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 07:29:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Received: from vps1.elischer.org (vps1.elischer.org [204.109.63.16]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "vps1.elischer.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bLM7b0m52z49MH for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 07:28:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; spf=softfail (mx1.freebsd.org: 204.109.63.16 is neither permitted nor denied by domain of julian@freebsd.org) smtp.mailfrom=julian@freebsd.org; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=freebsd.org (policy=none) Received: from [192.168.20.14] (180-150-86-67.b49656.per.static.aussiebb.net [180.150.86.67]) (authenticated bits=0) by vps1.elischer.org (8.17.2/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 55G7SoNO088111 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 00:28:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) X-Authentication-Warning: vps1.elischer.org: Host 180-150-86-67.b49656.per.static.aussiebb.net [180.150.86.67] claimed to be [192.168.20.14] Message-ID: <71d166d8-0a5b-4cb4-87c8-ee292b50e81b@freebsd.org> Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2025 15:28:44 +0800 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [maybe spam] Re: A modern programming language for FreeBSD: Swift To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: Content-Language: en-US From: Julian Elischer In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.20 / 15.00]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.000]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(1.00)[1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.999]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.20)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[freebsd.org : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[julian]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36236, ipnet:204.109.60.0/22, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; TO_DOM_EQ_FROM_DOM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; R_SPF_SOFTFAIL(0.00)[~all]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bLM7b0m52z49MH X-Spamd-Bar: + On 6/14/25 10:06 PM, Konstantin Belousov wrote: > On Sat, Jun 14, 2025 at 01:06:40PM +0000, Jordan Gordeev wrote: >> * support for dynamic linking (incl. to libc for isolating generated code from changes to the userland–kernel interface) > What specifically do you mean there? > > Does swift run over the C runtime, or like Go, it implements its own > runtime directly interacting with kernel syscalls? I have a Basic to C converter on my BSD web page..  I haven't changed it for  a couple of decade or so but it did run last I looked.. Maybe we can use it to maintain FreeBSD in basic!   Only takes a few millisecs to covert a CBASIC program to C.   Lets go for a language that isn't "fashionable", but really has history! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBASIC From nobody Mon Jun 16 07:41:10 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bLMQW5C4Mz5Vl24; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 07:41:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pj1-x102b.google.com (mail-pj1-x102b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bLMQV19cYz3HRn; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 07:41:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; 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Mon, 16 Jun 2025 00:41:47 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4353181.KlZ2vcFHjT@diego> In-Reply-To: From: Mario Marietto Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2025 09:41:10 +0200 X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFtG6PBsjGJbvby2ZpxSdfkHxWr4dWBMf8CWuyvyoeufCbCpWeVY1gFAaPY Message-ID: Subject: Re: What abouth the panfrost "driver" installed on the Radxa Zero 3W (Rockchip RK3566) To: =?UTF-8?Q?Heiko_St=C3=BCbner?= Cc: - Sandy Huang , - Andy Yan , freebsd-hackers , arm@freebsd.org, =?UTF-8?Q?S=C3=B8ren_Schmidt?= , Jesper Schmitz Mouridsen Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000038b2f20637ab8775" X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.04 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.988]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.94)[-0.936]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.89)[0.887]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20230601]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[rock-chips.com,163.com,freebsd.org,deepcore.dk,schmitz.computer]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROMTLD(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org,arm@freebsd.org]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[7]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::102b:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bLMQV19cYz3HRn X-Spamd-Bar: -- --00000000000038b2f20637ab8775 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We need a vop2 driver linux driver has 5000 lines of code and supports all of the vop2 variants .compatible =3D "rockchip,rk3566-vop", .compatible =3D "rockchip,rk3568-vop", .compatible =3D "rockchip,rk3576-vop", .compatible =3D "rockchip,rk3588-vop", this 5k lines do not include support for the rk3588 newer hdmi variants but lets ignore that for now and assume that current hdmi code will work for rk356x also from what i've seen the current linux vop2 code is for a newer release of drm than what evadot's code uses so the api is slightly different On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 10:07=E2=80=AFPM Mario Marietto wrote: > ---> I assume that was serial output ? > > Nope,FreeBSD boots and it displays all the messages that you see on > screen. So,I think that it works for the most part. > > On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 9:39=E2=80=AFPM Heiko St=C3=BCbner wrote: > >> Hi Mario, >> >> [I have no clue about any BSD, so the stuff below is somewhat generic] >> >> Am Sonntag, 15. Juni 2025, 09:55:12 Mitteleurop=C3=A4ische Sommerzeit sc= hrieb >> Mario Marietto: >> > Emanuel Vadot and Jesper Schmitz Mouridsen have enabled the panfrost >> driver >> > already,but on the rockpro RK3399,but for my phone I've chosen the >> smaller >> > Radxa board. These are their github with their kernel patches code : >> > >> > https://github.com/evadot/drm-subtree >> > https://github.com/jsm222/drm-subtree >> > >> > With some coworker on the FreeBSD forums we tried to see if the panfro= st >> > driver worked on that board. >> >> First of all you need to be aware that there are multiple components >> involved. >> The whole thing is _not_ one "graphics card" that produces 3d graphics >> and graphical output. >> >> The MALI gpu really is just render-only gpu, it creates 3d graphics and >> puts >> them into "some" memory. >> >> The display output is done by the "visual output processor" (VOP) + some >> output controllers like the dw-hdmi, for hdmi output. >> >> >> > Unfortunately,it seems that some code is missing,such as the vop2,but = we >> > aren't sure about what could be missing. >> >> Starting with the rk3566, Rockchip introduced a new version of the VOP >> (that VOP2 you're missing), which is a completely different IP block >> compared >> to the previous VOP. >> >> >> > Anyway,I want to show you the error that we get : >> > >> > >> > [image: panfrost-Radxa.jpeg] >> >> I assume that was serial output? >> >> >> > We would have some clarification about what's missing,what should be >> fixed >> > in the code. >> >> First of all you need a (new?) driver for the VOP2 + the necessary >> additions >> for dw-hdmi or dw-dsi or whatever - those controllers are still similar >> to the >> previous generations and "only" changed starting with the rk3588. >> >> >> When that works you should have unaccelerated HDMI output. >> >> >> After that you could check if the panfrost driver you have supports the >> (newer) generation of the MALI gpu (the rk3566 variant is a number of >> years >> newer than the rk3399 variant) and those github trees you linked to >> haven't >> seen any change for 3 years now. >> >> >> As I said I have no clue about anything BSD, so that is the farthest I c= an >> help here. >> >> >> Heiko >> >> > Eventually I could hire a FreeBSD kernel developer to produce the patc= h >> > needed to enable it on the Radxa board. >> > >> > It makes no sense to run FreeBSD on a phone without being able to use >> its >> > GPU / MALI / acceleration. >> > >> > Please enlighten us with some lucid considerations. >> > >> > Thanks. >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> > > -- > Mario. > --=20 Mario. --00000000000038b2f20637ab8775 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We need a vop2 driver
linux driver has 5000 lines of code and supports all of the vop2 variants
.compatible =3D "rockchip,rk3566-vop",
.compatible =3D "rockchip,rk3568-vop",
.compatible =3D "rockchip,rk3576-vop",
.compatible =3D "rockchip,rk3588-vop",

this 5k lines do not include support for the rk3588 newer hdmi variants=20 but lets ignore that for now and assume that current hdmi code will work for rk356x
also from what i've seen the current linux vop2 code is for a newer=20 release of drm than what evadot's code uses so the api is slightly=20 different


On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 10:07=E2=80=AFPM Mario Ma= rietto <marietto2008@gmail.com= > wrote:
=
---> I assume that was serial output ?
<= br>
Nope,FreeBSD boots and it displays all the messages that you = see on screen. So,I think that it works for the most part.=C2=A0

On Su= n, Jun 15, 2025 at 9:39=E2=80=AFPM Heiko St=C3=BCbner <heiko@sntech.de> wrote:
Hi Mario,

[I have no clue about any BSD, so the stuff below is somewhat generic]

Am Sonntag, 15. Juni 2025, 09:55:12 Mitteleurop=C3=A4ische Sommerzeit schri= eb Mario Marietto:
> Emanuel Vadot and Jesper Schmitz Mouridsen have enabled the panfrost d= river
> already,but on the rockpro RK3399,but for my phone I've chosen the= smaller
> Radxa board. These are their github with their kernel patches code : >
> https://github.com/evadot/drm-subtree
> https://github.com/jsm222/drm-subtree
>
> With some coworker on the FreeBSD forums we tried to see if the panfro= st
> driver worked on that board.

First of all you need to be aware that there are multiple components involv= ed.
The whole thing is _not_ one "graphics card" that produces 3d gra= phics
and graphical output.

The MALI gpu really is just render-only gpu, it creates 3d graphics and put= s
them into "some" memory.

The display output is done by the "visual output processor" (VOP)= + some
output controllers like the dw-hdmi, for hdmi output.


> Unfortunately,it seems that some code is missing,such as the vop2,but = we
> aren't sure about what could be missing.

Starting with the rk3566, Rockchip introduced a new version of the VOP
(that VOP2 you're missing), which is a completely different IP block co= mpared
to the previous VOP.


> Anyway,I want to show you the error that we get :
>
>
> [image: panfrost-Radxa.jpeg]

I assume that was serial output?


> We would have some clarification about what's missing,what should = be fixed
> in the code.

First of all you need a (new?) driver for the VOP2 + the necessary addition= s
for dw-hdmi or dw-dsi or whatever - those controllers are still similar to = the
previous generations and "only" changed starting with the rk3588.=


When that works you should have unaccelerated HDMI output.


After that you could check if the panfrost driver you have supports the
(newer) generation of the MALI gpu (the rk3566 variant is a number of years=
newer than the rk3399 variant) and those github trees you linked to haven&#= 39;t
seen any change for 3 years now.


As I said I have no clue about anything BSD, so that is the farthest I can<= br> help here.


Heiko

> Eventually I could hire a FreeBSD kernel developer to produce the patc= h
> needed to enable it on the Radxa board.
>
> It makes no sense to run FreeBSD on a phone without being able to use = its
> GPU / MALI / acceleration.
>
> Please enlighten us with some lucid considerations.
>
> Thanks.
>
>






--
Ma= rio.


--
Ma= rio.
--00000000000038b2f20637ab8775-- From nobody Mon Jun 16 08:41:38 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bLNll1cVBz5VpDS for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 08:41:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from kib.kiev.ua (kib.kiev.ua [IPv6:2001:470:d5e7:1::1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bLNlk50yWz3lfk for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 08:41:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from tom.home (kib@localhost [127.0.0.1] (may be forged)) by kib.kiev.ua (8.18.1/8.18.1) with ESMTP id 55G8fcU4072299; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 11:41:41 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 kib.kiev.ua 55G8fcU4072299 Received: (from kostik@localhost) by tom.home (8.18.1/8.18.1/Submit) id 55G8fcvj072288; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 11:41:38 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) X-Authentication-Warning: tom.home: kostik set sender to kostikbel@gmail.com using -f Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2025 11:41:38 +0300 From: Konstantin Belousov To: Jamie Landeg-Jones Cc: jgopensource@proton.me, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A modern programming language for FreeBSD: Swift Message-ID: References: <202506152335.55FNZJjr066895@donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net> List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <202506152335.55FNZJjr066895@donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net> X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED,FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD,FREEMAIL_FROM, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=4.0.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.1 (2024-03-26) on tom.home X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bLNlk50yWz3lfk X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US] On Mon, Jun 16, 2025 at 12:35:19AM +0100, Jamie Landeg-Jones wrote: > Jordan Gordeev wrote: > > > The FreeBSD project can leap into the future by choosing a modern programming language to replace C, or continue living in the past, hoping that the rest of the world will do the same. > > Not a good start to a "sales" pitch. Perhaphs. But I expected somewhat more mature inception of the contribution. The introduction for it is not great, but the work done could be. Having the swift ported is huge amount of work, and I see it as useful. We need it to have the system to be a good platform for all modern languages. IMO Jamie deserves the gratefulness and encouragement for the work done, and not the naive sarcasm due to some missed wording. From nobody Mon Jun 16 09:26:05 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bLPkt26nRz5pgQ0 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 09:26:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bLPks58qGz3Lgv for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 09:26:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.55.3]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange x25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 06B8DB0A1B; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 09:26:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: (from phk@localhost) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.18.1/8.16.1/Submit) id 55G9Q5mn021498; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 09:26:05 GMT (envelope-from phk) Message-Id: <202506160926.55G9Q5mn021498@critter.freebsd.dk> To: Konstantin Belousov cc: Jamie Landeg-Jones , jgopensource@proton.me, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A modern programming language for FreeBSD: Swift In-reply-to: From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" References: <202506152335.55FNZJjr066895@donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net> List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-ID: <21496.1750065965.1@critter.freebsd.dk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2025 09:26:05 +0000 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bLPks58qGz3Lgv X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:1835, ipnet:130.225.0.0/16, country:EU] -------- Konstantin Belousov writes: > IMO Jamie deserves the gratefulness and encouragement for the work done, > and not the naive sarcasm due to some missed wording. The wording is not a problem. But the Silverbulletism=E2=84=A2 the wording signals is a warning sign that mandatory homework has not been completed. (Not handing in homework is known to cause sarcasm.) As a reminder, the homework is this: A) Does the imagined benefits derive from the proposed language itself or from other software in the ecosystem around the language ? B) Does upstream even want FreeBSD to import/integrate ? C) Can the proposed language's compiler and runtime be sensibly imported and maintained in FreeBSD's source tree and bmake build technology ? D) What /new/ things will the proposed language allow us to do ? E) What is the FreeBSD killer-feature/application of the proposed language= ? F) Quantify the risks. Notes: A: FreeBSD cannot import ecosystems, only compilers and (sensible sized) r= untimes. D: Pointing to rewrites of trivial existing programs will be scored negati= vely. F: Risk =3D probability times consequence. Amongst the risks for the FreeBSD projects are things like "nobody can maintain this", "nobody wants to maintain this", "nobody knows how to maintain this" and "upstream changed their mind in a way which is incompatible with FreeBSD's inclusion", "upstream fizzled out", "upstream split into multiple different directions" etc. -- = Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe = Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence= . From nobody Mon Jun 16 14:50:14 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bLXww1MBBz5q4qG for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 14:50:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from steffen@sdaoden.eu) Received: from sdaoden.eu (sdaoden.eu [217.144.132.164]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bLXwt3n2cz3TwX for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 14:50:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from steffen@sdaoden.eu) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=sdaoden.eu header.s=citron header.b=nYDsyGUL; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of steffen@sdaoden.eu designates 217.144.132.164 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=steffen@sdaoden.eu; dmarc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sdaoden.eu; s=citron; t=1750085415; x=1750752081; h=date:author:from:to:cc:subject: message-id:in-reply-to:references:openpgp:blahblahblah:mime-version: content-type:content-transfer-encoding:author:from:subject:date:to:cc: resent-author:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender:resent-to:resent-cc: resent-reply-to:resent-message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version: content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:content-id: content-description:message-id:mail-followup-to:openpgp:blahblahblah; bh=VRsdjkn8DlSoRPstr9LO133g+doLKCCnjjVSY3gdG+8=; b=nYDsyGULJLXQ0U3NytXI4xmEP1G/yG06WFE/huTrnhZqeqLxv1zTODQh+tNA/ZUb0Oii8bKJ K5ANI/l8trYt0GyZf27mvPC2LNPmQbYma/U+oGiaTKZrrnq/6U0EwQAtMiN8+mvr1suJb0vdoQ bYEw9f/SNobAvOn1RO7tpS0QB2ATmFh69XgB679DhIznd9oEH1R+kPBV6Ck0wvw0BsDCjGp7up Wq0XH2DGbh+zgRVzmMqLbX85ahVyQTW01pF38zKi6NakMmIGS7E1j95CiGSR8eB2hi0JEm4e3Y pIWC4EUlCW6spejHcv+V1nuP9UTIauYeExObrBcQKjKndk/Q== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=adaed25519-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sdaoden.eu; s=orange; t=1750085415; x=1750752081; h=date:author:from:to:cc:subject: message-id:in-reply-to:references:openpgp:blahblahblah:mime-version: content-type:content-transfer-encoding:author:from:subject:date:to:cc: resent-author:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender:resent-to:resent-cc: resent-reply-to:resent-message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version: content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:content-id: content-description:message-id:mail-followup-to:openpgp:blahblahblah; bh=VRsdjkn8DlSoRPstr9LO133g+doLKCCnjjVSY3gdG+8=; b=PUCxsDYjwQjDYjx6/fhsnzSnPW4Ky3+2/A14urlNdwcHYjcr50deE5yaZz+rnXIzHAG5juHN PkZTXH0TzrE9AA== Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2025 16:50:14 +0200 Author: Steffen Nurpmeso From: Steffen Nurpmeso To: Vadim Goncharov Cc: Tomek CEDRO , Mark Millard , tomek@edro.info, freebsd-hackers , jgopensource@proton.me Subject: Re: A modern programming language for FreeBSD: Swift Message-ID: <20250616145014.W8KJqG2N@steffen%sdaoden.eu> In-Reply-To: <20250615170036.7e3af21c@nuclight.lan> References: <0B3DA0EC-1FB6-4C4F-B6D6-BB35BF06D49C.ref@yahoo.com> <0B3DA0EC-1FB6-4C4F-B6D6-BB35BF06D49C@yahoo.com> <20250615170036.7e3af21c@nuclight.lan> User-Agent: s-nail v14.9.25-663-g0c41f463ef OpenPGP: id=EE19E1C1F2F7054F8D3954D8308964B51883A0DD; url=https://ftp.sdaoden.eu/steffen.asc; preference=signencrypt BlahBlahBlah: Any stupid boy can crush a beetle. But all the professors in the world can make no bugs. List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.24 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.995]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.965]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.88)[-0.882]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[sdaoden.eu:s=citron]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.10)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; ASN_FAIL(0.00)[164.132.144.217.asn.rspamd.com:server fail]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sdaoden.eu]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[cedro.info,yahoo.com,edro.info,freebsd.org,proton.me]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[sdaoden.eu:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bLXwt3n2cz3TwX X-Spamd-Bar: --- Vadim Goncharov wrote in <20250615170036.7e3af21c@nuclight.lan>: |On Sun, 15 Jun 2025 15:07:26 +0200 |Tomek CEDRO wrote: | |> On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 6:30=E2=80=AFAM Mark Millard wrote: |>> Tomek CEDRO wote on |>> Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2025 01:29:37 UTC : =20 |>>> On Sat, Jun 14, 2025 at 11:26=E2=80=AFPM Tomek CEDRO \ |>>> wrote: =20 |>>>> On Sat, Jun 14, 2025 at 3:07=E2=80=AFPM Jordan Gordeev |>>>> wrote: =20 |>>>>> The FreeBSD project can leap into the future by choosing a modern |>>>>> programming language to replace C, or continue living in the past, |>>>>> hoping that the rest of the world will do the same. (..) =20 |>>>> |>>>> If you want to resurrect a Swift port from the past to the future you |>>>> are welcome: |>>>> |>>>> https://www.freshports.org/lang/swift/ =20 |>>> |>>> Update, I just saw Greg Wallace posted about official Swift 6.2 |>>> support on FreeBSD :-) |>>> |>>> https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2025/245/?time=3D1403 |>>> |>>> Swift 6.2 now officially supports FreeBSD and WebAssembly (Wasm), |>>> enabling you to build client and server applications for browsers and |>>> other runtimes. The Wasm support, which started as a community |>>> project, allows you to compile Swift code and run it in the browser, |>>> as demonstrated by a 3D rendering app using WebGPU and JavaScriptKit. |>>> Swift's safety, ease of use, and performance make it an attractive |>>> choice throughout the software stack. |>>> |>>> So Swift is back again on FreeBSD :-) And its matter of choice not |>>> replacement :-) =20 |>> |>> [Do not take this as suggesting involvement in replacing C.] =20 |>=20 |> Thanks Mark, looks like this was a troll post, but needs a response |>:-) I have zero interest in Swift myself. just got allergic to this |> kind of preaching "you should replace C with XYZ because |> whatever_reason". This is marxism ("you must destroy to build"), | |This shit has nothing to do with marxism. At best, this is infantilism... It in fact sounded like the famous Vietnam war quote on Ben Tre[1] "It became necessary to destroy the town to save it." Keep on rockin' in a free world. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_B%E1%BA%BFn_Tre |> brings only destruction to whatever still works, wrecks years of hard |> work, brings no working alternative/fallback (look at Xorg too), and |> should be dispraised right from start. If anyone wants XYZ based OS go |> ahead make one, just leave working stuff alone, people should have a |> choice :-) | |...and at worst, this is deliberate "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish" damage \ |for |commercial interests (vendor-locking/monopoly), like the Red Hat did with |systemd and now doing with Wayland/Xorg. | |--=20 |WBR, @nuclight | --End of <20250615170036.7e3af21c@nuclight.lan> --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) From nobody Mon Jun 16 17:20:00 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bLcFq2GdJz5y8y1 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 17:20:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from slowdive@me.com) Received: from outbound.qs.icloud.com (p-east3-cluster3-host1-snip4-8.eps.apple.com [57.103.86.11]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bLcFq1S4nz3W2j for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 17:20:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from slowdive@me.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=me.com; s=1a1hai; bh=tiI2k2zuivkNpya3Q3005Pkn+RkyihNWS9wi1y9WX7Y=; h=Content-Type:From:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:Message-Id:To:x-icloud-hme; b=rjgM0OnMVjh5bJHAQEE5JdYGiMIpsyQCYRjzVXfpY0pjsmLirj2x8BODSMoBBlV9j arr338SvffpgpYVgv1S13n9D0ElxOadsczmw8d/h0UIc4WtW8eDbq25d5jWbwTRGxR KGOmox8jagS6ivL512V4So7udGCMyNaT7df2uuCJK2hFwSxB3HfLefx9YUSBRlmc6/ CtPstzReGolDpsXRAJjiGKJ3Jj4tL0RBYZt1RQqvRAxcvl8QwRHC5ZmNlTKczKPG3t Kk+Mv58o6F4vcp7C+ZJWvqshTO3MoM+hJ9xtvP+u4FBr6xZSe+I6kJbfYuRPThMtzf tLh96SsK05i5Q== Received: from outbound.qs.icloud.com (unknown [127.0.0.2]) by outbound.qs.icloud.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 484FB180012E; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 17:20:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtpclient.apple (qs-asmtp-me-k8s.p00.prod.me.com [17.57.155.37]) by outbound.qs.icloud.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A0C5F1800148; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 17:20:11 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Kirill Orlov List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: A modern programming language for FreeBSD: Swift Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2025 13:20:00 -0400 Message-Id: References: Cc: Jamie Landeg-Jones , jgopensource@proton.me, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: To: Konstantin Belousov X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (20H360) X-Proofpoint-GUID: QRKmE50-ukVVpbkWTzMwjdTu1UqEzmYI X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: QRKmE50-ukVVpbkWTzMwjdTu1UqEzmYI X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.293,Aquarius:18.0.1099,Hydra:6.0.736,FMLib:17.12.80.40 definitions=2025-06-16_08,2025-06-13_01,2025-03-28_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 clxscore=1011 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxlogscore=805 phishscore=0 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.22.0-2503310001 definitions=main-2506160116 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bLcFq1S4nz3W2j X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN_FAIL(0.00)[11.86.103.57.asn.rspamd.com:server fail] Sounds like its better to wait for Zig reaching its stable release rather th= an exploring options from a heavily greed-driven =E2=80=9Corganization=E2=80= =9D. Regards, -K. > On Jun 16, 2025, at 04:42, Konstantin Belousov wrote= : >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Mon, Jun 16, 2025 at 12:35:19AM +0100, Jamie Landeg-Jones wrot= e: >> Jordan Gordeev wrote: >>=20 >>> The FreeBSD project can leap into the future by choosing a modern progra= mming language to replace C, or continue living in the past, hoping that the= rest of the world will do the same. >>=20 >> Not a good start to a "sales" pitch. >=20 > Perhaphs. >=20 > But I expected somewhat more mature inception of the contribution. The > introduction for it is not great, but the work done could be. Having the > swift ported is huge amount of work, and I see it as useful. We need it > to have the system to be a good platform for all modern languages. >=20 > IMO Jamie deserves the gratefulness and encouragement for the work done, > and not the naive sarcasm due to some missed wording. >=20 From nobody Mon Jun 16 17:32:23 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bLcX64czLz5y9sN for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 17:32:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kib@freebsd.org) Received: from kib.kiev.ua (kib.kiev.ua [IPv6:2001:470:d5e7:1::1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bLcX56pYqz3c49 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 17:32:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kib@freebsd.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from tom.home (kib@localhost [127.0.0.1] (may be forged)) by kib.kiev.ua (8.18.1/8.18.1) with ESMTP id 55GHWNgk024992; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 20:32:26 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kib@freebsd.org) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 kib.kiev.ua 55GHWNgk024992 Received: (from kostik@localhost) by tom.home (8.18.1/8.18.1/Submit) id 55GHWN3s024991; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 20:32:23 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kib@freebsd.org) X-Authentication-Warning: tom.home: kostik set sender to kib@freebsd.org using -f Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2025 20:32:23 +0300 From: Konstantin Belousov To: Kirill Orlov Cc: Jamie Landeg-Jones , jgopensource@proton.me, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A modern programming language for FreeBSD: Swift Message-ID: References: List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=4.0.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.1 (2024-03-26) on tom.home X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bLcX56pYqz3c49 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN_FAIL(0.00)[1.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.1.0.0.0.7.e.5.d.0.7.4.0.1.0.0.2.asn6.rspamd.com:server fail] On Mon, Jun 16, 2025 at 01:20:00PM -0400, Kirill Orlov wrote: > Sounds like its better to wait for Zig reaching its stable release rather than exploring options from a heavily greed-driven “organization”. > The option there is to have swift in ports, vs. not having it at all. And I very much love to see all impactful languages to be available on FreeBSD. Swift in the base system have exactly the same chances as zig, indeed. > Regards, > -K. > > > On Jun 16, 2025, at 04:42, Konstantin Belousov wrote: > > > > On Mon, Jun 16, 2025 at 12:35:19AM +0100, Jamie Landeg-Jones wrote: > >> Jordan Gordeev wrote: > >> > >>> The FreeBSD project can leap into the future by choosing a modern programming language to replace C, or continue living in the past, hoping that the rest of the world will do the same. > >> > >> Not a good start to a "sales" pitch. > > > > Perhaphs. > > > > But I expected somewhat more mature inception of the contribution. The > > introduction for it is not great, but the work done could be. Having the > > swift ported is huge amount of work, and I see it as useful. We need it > > to have the system to be a good platform for all modern languages. > > > > IMO Jamie deserves the gratefulness and encouragement for the work done, > > and not the naive sarcasm due to some missed wording. > > From nobody Mon Jun 16 22:04:37 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bLkZJ1Db3z5yTM8 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 22:04:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jordan.hubbard@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pj1-x1036.google.com (mail-pj1-x1036.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1036]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bLkZH1LDYz3dMV for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 22:04:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jordan.hubbard@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=ftASvoY6; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jordan.hubbard@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::1036 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jordan.hubbard@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com Received: by mail-pj1-x1036.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-313a001d781so4572782a91.3 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 15:04:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1750111489; x=1750716289; darn=freebsd.org; h=to:date:message-id:subject:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=0Ckmr77tiseaotUk7zW8X/gla5XwIRY/67XJlwzagiA=; b=ftASvoY6ZhT2D7yRdXbpNKuhh8qIiaq02EvONbYfCw/CMn1KoabfaQfYtabqQVr6kv FPIVu+a/mCk1iITeE+xKy6oKv98apNVJCPfapkUD6IMZgWxl9WM0+eCdhdFaS5J6ps5y oOqv5MoSRtXEOBrLhMn6mz9uKQkBvAqb/Y5xDWoAo0tJYN4T6RGAD5bFg0CDv2G2F9ft FN7FRLJm+fNyUgAfJZOvEtAv2KmgkQXZhZaYXvVI5n5KKCZlpcWyx5mb5TD4tQ//z325 f1NY0bz8kLTlBtgs8mAjRiUMi+0H5ZBqcHwBcuJrdgTxRwhmtMhXWIrsYRRcS0whyLEg 57GA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1750111489; x=1750716289; h=to:date:message-id:subject:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=0Ckmr77tiseaotUk7zW8X/gla5XwIRY/67XJlwzagiA=; b=bkAiao1Rz/dH06EuCYF0kEbsYCIVQHY/0VUJ9bD6P2gkjdMKHy1hw2OJ8e8ibq9FAp jBoEScYRJbQ0Ftr5z6S+gptKU3azNZkAXKVIHXIpzP56tIONH/3s3bXpMbVnMABd/MsX GQkzaS3VLTOQFgHxeE3F4QmePoJVA9e/xGhAXucyjvqYSJe2FrlbSELU+1pMrzYbQZVv TO2JZMbmyRetO8xAti0vnK2HjMYd3WbmGBOOVUdQrtuEXufDHABX3xvNLqS5eovXqWRd 6WlKXoKL2hOQ8vay6EEHdnA2Js8fENbGVv+sZy/ZgpOAItpwu/VR7D9ytj7cK9Nd4igE 3etQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzXFQcICY5hJOsJ/km9g/DHavZGxjQBIkLTtklkDE+d0EzaIA8b rhMH3ib/eY43ylo4Ku7OoXAs7oY8d7GlO058sloUCapZGt31M+IDb/Pitq/gkQ== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncvgrD8AstP4RGuoWhgD6fhWOMWFD6x/aEmDEsL8+Vxvzb/C1VTEqS26wXvJtCV b49mk2vbZ4KuUf4BCZzDCBQNOdNV7aDg6OiEOHVmGYK0b4ZGrb2wmCxvxvesYMLNIM70Uc2PAtQ FIK1/oBfeJcYLxk7tgDn2h1J6QdEbFT4+7mjcF/ghhiskoJhj7AIvNZhFwH74nZxagEf3iS3Ej9 2yN/WU926hAmS0rkSmaKG/7Rq7i7V+CYgQaal02Nr+9KCFgEtCTHcD3iMsT/Pwft8mE+ez3IIbp HYCs40erwjXQmoXwcwrzrGoad2xjf0WJDKw3ghRZXbugUBM/SybVxhrU+U2M/NS2gPmPDpx5CAz 30QDqjbYgeeY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFkJ0IOmhSLTz7jxo4yyKaxJ4tAoL19pi2zoK02EjR9VAAOqcfn8E/+f+qCQk+ICcecnUI4lQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:3148:b0:313:31ca:a69 with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-313f1daa79emr20120023a91.18.1750111488695; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 15:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple ([216.228.127.129]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 98e67ed59e1d1-313c1b59ed4sm9200607a91.39.2025.06.16.15.04.48 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 16 Jun 2025 15:04:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Jordan Hubbard Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3853.100.6.1.1\)) Subject: [Thought experiment] Bringing swift into an experimental branch? Message-Id: <7344B44E-0AED-44CA-903D-B8DFC2D56311@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2025 15:04:37 -0700 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3853.100.6.1.1) X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.78 / 15.00]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.99)[0.991]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.990]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.28)[0.278]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20230601]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::1036:from]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bLkZH1LDYz3dMV X-Spamd-Bar: / I know that the topic of =E2=80=9Cbringing additional languages=E2=80=9D = into OSes is controversial and, frankly, we made a bad call with macOS = when we brought the kitchen sink in (everything from Tcl to Python) and = regretted it afterwards, so this is just a thought experiment, as noted = in the subject. All that said, I think a more modern language than C++ being readily = available has a useful way of shifting development and generating some = excitement, and a modern language that is also strongly supported by = your existing clang / LLVM compiler toolchain represents an increment = along the same evolutionary path. It=E2=80=99s also a language that = needs a number of components to be tightly in sync (libdispatch, clang, = llvm, various compilation tools and libraries, etc) before any 3rd party = developer can even compile it for FreeBSD, so saying =E2=80=9Cit=E2=80=99s= a ports collection problem=E2=80=9D may ultimately work, but not = without considerable pain, as evidenced by the fact that = ports/lang/swift does not exist. Why swift, if anything? Python changes too often in incompatible ways and Rust is still going = through its Rust foundation stewardship changes (that didn=E2=80=99t = form until 2021) plus if you bring Rust in, you=E2=80=99ll be = immediately enmeshed in the =E2=80=9Cshould we just rewrite the kernel = in rust?!=E2=80=9D topics that seem to plague Linux. Swift, on the = other hand, is an application and service development language and sits = nicely on top of what FreeBSD already has - nobody=E2=80=99s going to = push to rewrite the kernel or base utilities in Swift, but you do get = access to a very active community and, of course, the backing of a major = player like Apple and the open source swift ecosystem. I=E2=80=99m told that Swift also just announced support for FreeBSD, so = if there is ever a time, this might be it? - Jordan From nobody Mon Jun 16 22:09:06 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bLkgP075Cz5yTS8 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 22:09:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-pl1-x62c.google.com (mail-pl1-x62c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bLkgN2Jcmz3j6s for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 22:09:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com header.s=20230601 header.b=hosWcSz9; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wlosh@bsdimp.com has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::62c) smtp.mailfrom=wlosh@bsdimp.com; dmarc=none Received: by mail-pl1-x62c.google.com with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-2349f096605so66252875ad.3 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 15:09:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1750111757; x=1750716557; darn=freebsd.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=PMZ9C8b1Cn05Kd+iR7jAM7oUzySU7QnqMhEx2LDJXkM=; b=hosWcSz9NGSGCw2KWKSilhL9oOWZ2fKdo7YlepTNIQnaRiwJvAOrmq9zW/Qbu6HC8X s7UFmGfJQSWngXHO8dCF58oJWNipqBWesNyjUkkjGzTrYFRTkQA5+d40vYjIJ1/8On6z 6ODnpSyR5C5uG7+ZaxH76BogQ+ROzSv5EUzU5+LND+cwkNUmWY1P3+jTvHE/xbG53sYx QnQQZ4CodryHHgDt4BRVPIs75YMHWF8BQ7a9bq++lhJIaUR/lXArnw8ELPcc1IVmUH7d OCV9M39Sykoj5KQLfBSjqLh+EYQDjs6d+FwYC6mnzoaUisEaeY6M7Yhhh//VVPDvdi7j QNHg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1750111757; x=1750716557; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=PMZ9C8b1Cn05Kd+iR7jAM7oUzySU7QnqMhEx2LDJXkM=; b=fd6fp2G6Bqtwn/8FjTont2IdSibcb5s5JzOU4EjzLNWajFYUbHCQ6ZzkUe8szwHwnY /u/XFrno/kMpYJ0kRClxzuycxaW3TMNIFs0d+q7c88TdwepMNE47kVp9VRCFpL2pO7fm 7B6bMMPsq36zSqYq5yV48Es5oKdQzQFnagsbC+QzB9nxKaYTeByxV1CY/9xj5Ujs+DMc 66lTNkWDm526iiCNbB53cCAk0Wgm8ome0kn6w6hID9qrbaGV6CunSmYtLHqqs4Hzg6In 1BGGVpjP/xqiuFkhzGbdEWsYnujF8fE0e3nK2OuMQaBWBsByAg3cUpLOLZbXRsHjUowZ Ayrg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwpYOQl1vrnGoOSN13ah6CCKS2Sh3SJ2ZGUB0KLlyHwGrzsn2YF 2dgjuWqcmOS0TCZyzhjt/rjTLg94Zj2OzHlDqXiTXsLuigcmJj9HWKQH18qFpidi+7BQe5kCVD8 vcpyDdFue1aqtxDfk+b0t1xrDxUcCAOz3hw+zE626Og== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncstZrSgxLWBdo5rdfGjZ/8s/YMBmnjcYjcxBM9a9fUOzmWzJA95O1XjajmgdfS Clx7ASFCGrSzlRHVcp+DtKqEYGd2CUqpcGnJSa4rqbmuOXwtjYpabM9STakosUUX0t3o0YTkNi9 m1DepxZn7Ro9F0+z4p2xmueZZ2SUFCwrrUjPGnh/ayhls= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IH6I8y+9v5CDuz2QCzwxtop9nOYly6m7Ro/AnEbkFCFPSL5soGm28YWsiOqE/rX7aAjwVL5CFAHqWz/zLZYJYo= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:53ce:b0:313:23ed:6ff with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-313f1ca7758mr14786458a91.1.1750111757625; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 15:09:17 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7344B44E-0AED-44CA-903D-B8DFC2D56311@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <7344B44E-0AED-44CA-903D-B8DFC2D56311@gmail.com> From: Warner Losh Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2025 16:09:06 -0600 X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFvSWIvyUrC6aYYErF7qtVi6N5XRUKhDBbSjJbVq2x50pb-k8m5RUlxTfgU Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Thought experiment] Bringing swift into an experimental branch? To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.18 / 15.00]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.997]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.991]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com:s=20230601]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.19)[-0.195]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bsdimp.com]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::62c:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bLkgN2Jcmz3j6s X-Spamd-Bar: - On Mon, Jun 16, 2025 at 4:05=E2=80=AFPM Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > I know that the topic of =E2=80=9Cbringing additional languages=E2=80=9D = into OSes is controversial and, frankly, we made a bad call with macOS when= we brought the kitchen sink in (everything from Tcl to Python) and regrett= ed it afterwards, so this is just a thought experiment, as noted in the sub= ject. > > All that said, I think a more modern language than C++ being readily avai= lable has a useful way of shifting development and generating some exciteme= nt, and a modern language that is also strongly supported by your existing = clang / LLVM compiler toolchain represents an increment along the same evol= utionary path. It=E2=80=99s also a language that needs a number of compone= nts to be tightly in sync (libdispatch, clang, llvm, various compilation to= ols and libraries, etc) before any 3rd party developer can even compile it = for FreeBSD, so saying =E2=80=9Cit=E2=80=99s a ports collection problem=E2= =80=9D may ultimately work, but not without considerable pain, as evidenced= by the fact that ports/lang/swift does not exist. > > Why swift, if anything? > > Python changes too often in incompatible ways and Rust is still going thr= ough its Rust foundation stewardship changes (that didn=E2=80=99t form unti= l 2021) plus if you bring Rust in, you=E2=80=99ll be immediately enmeshed i= n the =E2=80=9Cshould we just rewrite the kernel in rust?!=E2=80=9D topics = that seem to plague Linux. Swift, on the other hand, is an application an= d service development language and sits nicely on top of what FreeBSD alrea= dy has - nobody=E2=80=99s going to push to rewrite the kernel or base utili= ties in Swift, but you do get access to a very active community and, of cou= rse, the backing of a major player like Apple and the open source swift eco= system. > > I=E2=80=99m told that Swift also just announced support for FreeBSD, so i= f there is ever a time, this might be it? There's a rust utilities in the base branch for Rust right now, hosted outside of the project... I'm sure something similar could happen with swift for interested parties to collaborate. Warner From nobody Mon Jun 16 22:27:04 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bLl471XFCz5yVJr for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 22:27:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asomers@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ed1-f54.google.com (mail-ed1-f54.google.com [209.85.208.54]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bLl463kYdz3xPl for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 22:27:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asomers@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-ed1-f54.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-606ddbda275so9943058a12.1 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 15:27:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1750112837; x=1750717637; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=T+yC2tDj9l52xW/BDRTCZNghZ4B0XBoHaEw1bemB5RY=; b=F/HhOPzZbasFE00ySdwxZY+OumQZEnQZYdxPMtlze/qhtHu/zrrOpbFy/izezb8dim KYPY162uk+qrhLQwem4n9zqxT1f1A7RfqVXL3RaGr9pXhJg8OevLnhpjrIvNiIk6JCKi ikQ7knpdxjUNSedJ2f4kH+ZzILfrtapbd3bdQaob45dNa2GOE4+7Beva7MGCYvovk62t bYdjsU6idXHO+O3/92lmIWQy3u1nGapT+pv6OWFkZltbWFj6Uw3IEPUUF7vXgN7tp35i 7VIbbGt452VxrOnC75s4RFU6pR0HlEtdIBi04vEfgN4ObyTfEDKuQcg2ArvyVcj8nsY+ ALDw== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCWscoNrBniSb68WeUEhW08cvUEJIN9cU12cUzPweVnqHVI6Em/5pEbav+ArJx8LLvvDU2BS43nuQeYsnnegvVQ=@freebsd.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yw3yUiw4LpkyPt5skjGhGGOUTbMAeG4BkZlyqX1/zdVFoFBLw7p 0yGFPb3A+lzM4lqR3MLcYKfIH8uOwAg3rQQp/5M/LPLStRivdzByz82Uy79Fu3Mo7L6yPyIT9xa y/93trIAmIVFNtmM4twKp25+b200xErw= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGnctcDEt8psfpnvNqj9qMKe5IIFypOi7/4n/BWqycHr0pdZYdKrHeOegXzutB32p vfuRkUaK5IpMXHWVx36T1vjFRXbnXgqNeonqfks/3RIoaaiAoryZjuaUDkoayHk7KeIpbCkXNQ0 4IOMDzB3P0+kS3H8hkM/6JrkBMUGxzHeT4A+2+pQ840as= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGd0+sBfd883GAKe6w1eMXtSgkIUENKb3T6MxsI+rdm4hCqFN33E/mOZXK5wJBusHUqx9BhnmjnZ3inHDI+m1I= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:72c2:b0:ade:4339:9367 with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-adfad34accdmr1048118466b.26.1750112836635; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 15:27:16 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7344B44E-0AED-44CA-903D-B8DFC2D56311@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Alan Somers Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2025 16:27:04 -0600 X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFtRRt5vVddIJz9SCgWGCvITPlxdM8rMUdaXQPPtFA8LCA7firETsqAyjbw Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Thought experiment] Bringing swift into an experimental branch? To: Warner Losh Cc: Jordan Hubbard , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f1d2cd0637b7e55f" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bLl463kYdz3xPl X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US] --000000000000f1d2cd0637b7e55f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jun 16, 2025 at 4:09=E2=80=AFPM Warner Losh wrote: > On Mon, Jun 16, 2025 at 4:05=E2=80=AFPM Jordan Hubbard > wrote: > > > > I know that the topic of =E2=80=9Cbringing additional languages=E2=80= =9D into OSes is > controversial and, frankly, we made a bad call with macOS when we brought > the kitchen sink in (everything from Tcl to Python) and regretted it > afterwards, so this is just a thought experiment, as noted in the subject= . > > > > All that said, I think a more modern language than C++ being readily > available has a useful way of shifting development and generating some > excitement, and a modern language that is also strongly supported by your > existing clang / LLVM compiler toolchain represents an increment along th= e > same evolutionary path. It=E2=80=99s also a language that needs a number= of > components to be tightly in sync (libdispatch, clang, llvm, various > compilation tools and libraries, etc) before any 3rd party developer can > even compile it for FreeBSD, so saying =E2=80=9Cit=E2=80=99s a ports coll= ection problem=E2=80=9D > may ultimately work, but not without considerable pain, as evidenced by t= he > fact that ports/lang/swift does not exist. > > > > Why swift, if anything? > > > > Python changes too often in incompatible ways and Rust is still going > through its Rust foundation stewardship changes (that didn=E2=80=99t form= until > 2021) plus if you bring Rust in, you=E2=80=99ll be immediately enmeshed i= n the > =E2=80=9Cshould we just rewrite the kernel in rust?!=E2=80=9D topics that= seem to plague > Linux. Swift, on the other hand, is an application and service > development language and sits nicely on top of what FreeBSD already has - > nobody=E2=80=99s going to push to rewrite the kernel or base utilities in= Swift, > but you do get access to a very active community and, of course, the > backing of a major player like Apple and the open source swift ecosystem. > > > > I=E2=80=99m told that Swift also just announced support for FreeBSD, so= if there > is ever a time, this might be it? > > There's a rust utilities in the base branch for Rust right now, hosted > outside of the project... I'm sure something similar could happen > with swift for interested parties to collaborate. > Note that said branch does not import the Rust toolchain itself. It relies on an external toolchain. That made it quite easy to add all of the Rust support to the Makefiles. And there's no cost at all, in either runtime, buildtime, or maintenance burden, to people who aren't using the Rust stuff. The same would be true of Swift, I assume. But I think that it's highly premature to consider such a thing before Swift even lands in ports. As for whether Swift is appropriate for writing base system utilities, I don't know enough about it to confidently say. After Swift stabilizes in ports, and after somebody creates a swift-in-base branch, then we can have a real holy war ;) --000000000000f1d2cd0637b7e55f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Jun 16, 2025 at 4:09=E2=80=AFPM Warne= r Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:<= br>
On Mon, Jun 16, = 2025 at 4:05=E2=80=AFPM Jordan Hubbard <jordan.hubbard@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I know that the topic of =E2=80=9Cbringing additional languages=E2=80= =9D into OSes is controversial and, frankly, we made a bad call with macOS = when we brought the kitchen sink in (everything from Tcl to Python) and reg= retted it afterwards, so this is just a thought experiment, as noted in the= subject.
>
> All that said, I think a more modern language than C++ being readily a= vailable has a useful way of shifting development and generating some excit= ement, and a modern language that is also strongly supported by your existi= ng clang / LLVM compiler toolchain represents an increment along the same e= volutionary path.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s also a language that needs a number of= components to be tightly in sync (libdispatch, clang, llvm, various compil= ation tools and libraries, etc) before any 3rd party developer can even com= pile it for FreeBSD, so saying =E2=80=9Cit=E2=80=99s a ports collection pro= blem=E2=80=9D may ultimately work, but not without considerable pain, as ev= idenced by the fact that ports/lang/swift does not exist.
>
> Why swift, if anything?
>
> Python changes too often in incompatible ways and Rust is still going = through its Rust foundation stewardship changes (that didn=E2=80=99t form u= ntil 2021) plus if you bring Rust in, you=E2=80=99ll be immediately enmeshe= d in the =E2=80=9Cshould we just rewrite the kernel in rust?!=E2=80=9D topi= cs that seem to plague Linux.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Swift, on the other hand, is an a= pplication and service development language and sits nicely on top of what = FreeBSD already has - nobody=E2=80=99s going to push to rewrite the kernel = or base utilities in Swift, but you do get access to a very active communit= y and, of course, the backing of a major player like Apple and the open sou= rce swift ecosystem.
>
> I=E2=80=99m told that Swift also just announced support for FreeBSD, s= o if there is ever a time, this might be it?

There's a rust utilities in the base branch for Rust right now, hosted<= br> outside of the project...=C2=A0 I'm sure something similar could happen=
with swift for interested parties to collaborate.

Note that said branch does not import = the Rust toolchain itself.=C2=A0 It relies on an external toolchain.=C2=A0 = That made it quite easy to add all of the Rust support to the Makefiles.=C2= =A0 And there's no cost at all, in either runtime, buildtime, or mainte= nance burden, to people who aren't using the Rust stuff.=C2=A0 The same= would be true of Swift, I assume.=C2=A0 But I think that it's highly p= remature to consider such a thing before Swift even lands in ports.

As for whether Swift is appropriate for writing base syst= em utilities, I don't know enough about it to confidently say.=C2=A0 Af= ter Swift stabilizes in ports, and after somebody creates a swift-in-base b= ranch, then we can have a real holy war ;)
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Mon, 16 Jun 2025 15:45:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rimwks.local ([2001:470:1f1b:4dc:8d3c:edb:a074:fd6]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a640c23a62f3a-adec88ff5efsm738944366b.104.2025.06.16.15.45.56 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 16 Jun 2025 15:45:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Rozhuk Ivan X-Google-Original-From: Rozhuk Ivan Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2025 01:45:55 +0300 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Thought experiment] Bringing swift into an experimental branch? Message-ID: <20250617014555.75ac832d@rimwks.local> In-Reply-To: References: <7344B44E-0AED-44CA-903D-B8DFC2D56311@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 4.3.0 (GTK 3.24.49; amd64-portbld-freebsd14.3) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.99 / 15.00]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.996]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.99)[0.987]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20230601]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::62b:from]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bLlTl5y1sz3FcH X-Spamd-Bar: / On Mon, 16 Jun 2025 16:27:04 -0600 Alan Somers wrote: > Note that said branch does not import the Rust toolchain itself. It > relies on an external toolchain. That made it quite easy to add all > of the Rust support to the Makefiles. And there's no cost at all, in > either runtime, buildtime, or maintenance burden, to people who > aren't using the Rust stuff. The same would be true of Swift, I > assume. But I think that it's highly premature to consider such a > thing before Swift even lands in ports. > > As for whether Swift is appropriate for writing base system > utilities, I don't know enough about it to confidently say. After > Swift stabilizes in ports, and after somebody creates a swift-in-base > branch, then we can have a real holy war ;) Add...add...add...add... who will support all that crap!? Every one likes make childrens, but after they born - they requre a lot attention and resources. Before add something try to see all life cycle of code/language. PS: I will never belive in "no cost at all" since even C compilator takes time to bootstrap build. "to people who aren't using the Rust stuff" - and after few years some on will say: - hey!, lets remove legacy C code and switch to modern crappy rust/swift staff. 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To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000056820b0637b847bd" X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.90 / 15.00]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.93)[-0.931]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.83)[0.828]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20230601]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::529:from]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROMTLD(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bLlgf2NQBz3M6d X-Spamd-Bar: / --00000000000056820b0637b847bd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, I want to enter SOC Porting but upon asking have gotten very abstract material and am still not able to understand how it is done. I'm in search of a material or guide with end to end "handholding" on how it's done. Any recommendations? // Alek --00000000000056820b0637b847bd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I want to enter SOC Porting but upon asking hav= e=C2=A0gotten=C2=A0very=C2=A0abstract material and am still not able=C2=A0t= o understand how it is done.

I'm in search of a material or guid= e with end=C2=A0to end "handholding" on how it's done. Any re= commendations?

//
Alek
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[209.85.128.181]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 00721157ae682-7118f247782sm6880657b3.43.2025.06.16.16.01.59 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 16 Jun 2025 16:01:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw1-f181.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-70e5e6ab7b8so44298957b3.1 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 16:01:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:312:b0:70d:ffaf:48fe with SMTP id 00721157ae682-71175398049mr145421007b3.13.1750114918683; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 16:01:58 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7344B44E-0AED-44CA-903D-B8DFC2D56311@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <7344B44E-0AED-44CA-903D-B8DFC2D56311@gmail.com> From: Tomek CEDRO Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2025 01:01:46 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFu7WyxHwOaAQU2gfiaa-I1fHsnvGlZK9KdjB6ywo4rKtPH12kP_2PTQHIw Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Thought experiment] Bringing swift into an experimental branch? To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.21 / 15.00]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.85)[-0.846]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.62)[-0.615]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.55)[0.553]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::1132:from,209.85.128.181:received] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bLlrF5ssMz3Qjt X-Spamd-Bar: / On Tue, Jun 17, 2025 at 12:05=E2=80=AFAM Jordan Hubbard wrote: > I know that the topic of =E2=80=9Cbringing additional languages=E2=80=9D = into OSes is controversial and, frankly, we made a bad call with macOS when= we brought the kitchen sink in (everything from Tcl to Python) and regrett= ed it afterwards, so this is just a thought experiment, as noted in the sub= ject. > > All that said, I think a more modern language than C++ being readily avai= lable has a useful way of shifting development and generating some exciteme= nt, and a modern language that is also strongly supported by your existing = clang / LLVM compiler toolchain represents an increment along the same evol= utionary path. It=E2=80=99s also a language that needs a number of compone= nts to be tightly in sync (libdispatch, clang, llvm, various compilation to= ols and libraries, etc) before any 3rd party developer can even compile it = for FreeBSD, so saying =E2=80=9Cit=E2=80=99s a ports collection problem=E2= =80=9D may ultimately work, but not without considerable pain, as evidenced= by the fact that ports/lang/swift does not exist. > > Why swift, if anything? > > Python changes too often in incompatible ways and Rust is still going thr= ough its Rust foundation stewardship changes (that didn=E2=80=99t form unti= l 2021) plus if you bring Rust in, you=E2=80=99ll be immediately enmeshed i= n the =E2=80=9Cshould we just rewrite the kernel in rust?!=E2=80=9D topics = that seem to plague Linux. Swift, on the other hand, is an application an= d service development language and sits nicely on top of what FreeBSD alrea= dy has - nobody=E2=80=99s going to push to rewrite the kernel or base utili= ties in Swift, but you do get access to a very active community and, of cou= rse, the backing of a major player like Apple and the open source swift eco= system. > > I=E2=80=99m told that Swift also just announced support for FreeBSD, so i= f there is ever a time, this might be it? > - Jordan There is nothing wrong with resurrecting lang/swift in the ports [1], this may bring Swift lovers to FreeBSD make it base for their servers / platforms / devices (maybe even porting macOS/iOS applications???), just as it is with any other programming language already here (i.e. Python), people will have choice whether use it or not with zero impact on the kernel / base :-) The problem was with "dump old bad C and rewrite everything in Swift just to get modern" because we clearly do not want to rewrite kernel / base in Swift :D :D [1] https://www.freshports.org/lang/swift/ --=20 CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From nobody Mon Jun 16 23:31:46 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bLmVg2Qt0z5VcBC for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 23:31:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rob.fx907@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ej1-x62b.google.com (mail-ej1-x62b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::62b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bLmVf4KMLz3pxk for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 23:31:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rob.fx907@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-ej1-x62b.google.com with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-ad88d77314bso1122497466b.1 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 16:31:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1750116708; x=1750721508; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:references:in-reply-to :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=JIf3F78WZB/kYVGH9rkqr/87HrQS5cRHa2ct7JZ+g9c=; b=IJo7kA0NHhnqikmwLLWl0ZEyWHWBILqjw5+oscXbh/9LJ5a/tdEgbGrO1tysmZ8Npn /17EceLyQhLPp0Oknf2sYroAUIGRQy/ybP6KbYqNe3LHm4IzRcxj9C5Xw7jxvvAWp96a du9aJoqsBLSmKjeH/oEyV+WNrOa6wSrs6zS3m5NvNSZTAks5qse1lfKDnCpffmR07k+Q wdsJ+dIZ4GSr2QUVEzqlFk+f0FNZ9bHamxxH/qyEkkyXyjG4byKKiGxb6L0M1ljeR5VY 0JYOkCdRZdZxrcbEk6z3xI372rDTWbwxCtnoYJirmuobXZE76Q0z67Opg3S3as9evhG6 YeSw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1750116708; x=1750721508; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:references:in-reply-to :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=JIf3F78WZB/kYVGH9rkqr/87HrQS5cRHa2ct7JZ+g9c=; b=ah55vTDeBeG1kmYwWkpv6cNx9XbCzcDBqsFEgZRVcxAkd4lAg9t5KshVcXQvnDa0YS 0E0BxFlWtV7+RPEeLUZdXBIc6jIFaprFMsy6Ti7RVeNLV2MoiDIdHxRGNNuu1vvxH67I c3tCd0ReXWfgEVEgZeAZZr843X6hGJs2LziQniMNKK/qvw6nInrvcBHXWK9PwwvK2e+Q kNxmd02k4sKEVOBaxg3l9FHDtfkCD7Q2sVnI65yY/dpJquV9EYrsicotGU1vr6hlUHLX 1E+xNgr81tt6LOne5eI9KWUz0MVnbxQx9DGKZMXWdB+fQfJDDWEz9VgNMSEYnATaasDK 24HQ== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCUyTyKXVPCmnj5bqhMZ6oxeR0pXjGDhYH7RfuovOWFQYvf4BGPCvN9SOVfE+Uw3CH/+RqXyFs45N78Ro5PgjWM=@freebsd.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yy7DKhSxqGPsm/4J/vaefOBfqsRxI7KJc/Yta5fGvJfn/z1Lt70 hBjN24smS464IjnvXKQx/8mfsj3aIPBdu56XthDl1KT3WyGP8Vzffvcw3wMe6ppeSe299oNjqYk n4sQpYutyU+G+AqkKCc74lQ8BOiSWXc4= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncsUSOewYnbov1vGMTyrs5PswQ9oYODxJMu/lDi06N9zwiYcoePVw3LBTaOAKIz q6+np6hipYML27EDNzJeuSUAOQgcXp5dKNsFBDLAzn3Bo610O1q/wQBpatORCowCIK3VGTsHYkX /3uJUZpUAFLrf9WjBs845ONTjAtI9CfkoaOByk5eHVC5159xaJK5MeXqXpkLX3DvXghJtnXw+rk JQNiElkfFKD+JBF X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IG7GIBcsxAREctH8KoJgcK4c4ax/PeaqnH2r4KBaFPjihyxALDHscm34Q9theqstQcANzykK5v6RZihfaIpQj8= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:4fca:b0:ad8:a41a:3cdc with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-adfad3734admr1090099566b.2.1750116707564; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 16:31:47 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a17:906:2dda:b0:adf:763a:f4c4 with HTTP; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 16:31:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <7344B44E-0AED-44CA-903D-B8DFC2D56311@gmail.com> From: Rob Wing Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2025 15:31:46 -0800 X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFtt2NFGYDoCcrpt1LEB4hxZBPymsDLuzYO_GMmFWGoNHlaK9mP5Wqhpk1E Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Thought experiment] Bringing swift into an experimental branch? To: Tomek CEDRO Cc: Jordan Hubbard , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ab80840637b8cc70" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bLmVf4KMLz3pxk X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] --000000000000ab80840637b8cc70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable can someone (who was around at the time) school us on why perl was removed from base? and why introducing language XYZ won=E2=80=99t suffer the same issues/fate? On Monday, June 16, 2025, Tomek CEDRO wrote: > On Tue, Jun 17, 2025 at 12:05=E2=80=AFAM Jordan Hubbard > wrote: > > I know that the topic of =E2=80=9Cbringing additional languages=E2=80= =9D into OSes is > controversial and, frankly, we made a bad call with macOS when we brought > the kitchen sink in (everything from Tcl to Python) and regretted it > afterwards, so this is just a thought experiment, as noted in the subject= . > > > > All that said, I think a more modern language than C++ being readily > available has a useful way of shifting development and generating some > excitement, and a modern language that is also strongly supported by your > existing clang / LLVM compiler toolchain represents an increment along th= e > same evolutionary path. It=E2=80=99s also a language that needs a number= of > components to be tightly in sync (libdispatch, clang, llvm, various > compilation tools and libraries, etc) before any 3rd party developer can > even compile it for FreeBSD, so saying =E2=80=9Cit=E2=80=99s a ports coll= ection problem=E2=80=9D > may ultimately work, but not without considerable pain, as evidenced by t= he > fact that ports/lang/swift does not exist. > > > > Why swift, if anything? > > > > Python changes too often in incompatible ways and Rust is still going > through its Rust foundation stewardship changes (that didn=E2=80=99t form= until > 2021) plus if you bring Rust in, you=E2=80=99ll be immediately enmeshed i= n the > =E2=80=9Cshould we just rewrite the kernel in rust?!=E2=80=9D topics that= seem to plague > Linux. Swift, on the other hand, is an application and service > development language and sits nicely on top of what FreeBSD already has - > nobody=E2=80=99s going to push to rewrite the kernel or base utilities in= Swift, > but you do get access to a very active community and, of course, the > backing of a major player like Apple and the open source swift ecosystem. > > > > I=E2=80=99m told that Swift also just announced support for FreeBSD, so= if there > is ever a time, this might be it? > > - Jordan > > There is nothing wrong with resurrecting lang/swift in the ports [1], > this may bring Swift lovers to FreeBSD make it base for their servers > / platforms / devices (maybe even porting macOS/iOS applications???), > just as it is with any other programming language already here (i.e. > Python), people will have choice whether use it or not with zero > impact on the kernel / base :-) > > The problem was with "dump old bad C and rewrite everything in Swift > just to get modern" because we clearly do not want to rewrite kernel / > base in Swift :D :D > > [1] https://www.freshports.org/lang/swift/ > > -- > CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info > > --000000000000ab80840637b8cc70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable can someone (who was around at the time) school us =C2=A0on why perl was re= moved from base?

and why introducing language XYZ won=E2= =80=99t suffer the same issues/fate?

On Monday, June 16, 2025, Tom= ek CEDRO <tomek@cedro.info> w= rote:
On Tue, Jun 17, 2025 at 12:05=E2=80= =AFAM Jordan Hubbard
<jordan.hubbard@gmail.com> wrote:
> I know that the topic of =E2=80=9Cbringing additional languages=E2=80= =9D into OSes is controversial and, frankly, we made a bad call with macOS = when we brought the kitchen sink in (everything from Tcl to Python) and reg= retted it afterwards, so this is just a thought experiment, as noted in the= subject.
>
> All that said, I think a more modern language than C++ being readily a= vailable has a useful way of shifting development and generating some excit= ement, and a modern language that is also strongly supported by your existi= ng clang / LLVM compiler toolchain represents an increment along the same e= volutionary path.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s also a language that needs a number of= components to be tightly in sync (libdispatch, clang, llvm, various compil= ation tools and libraries, etc) before any 3rd party developer can even com= pile it for FreeBSD, so saying =E2=80=9Cit=E2=80=99s a ports collection pro= blem=E2=80=9D may ultimately work, but not without considerable pain, as ev= idenced by the fact that ports/lang/swift does not exist.
>
> Why swift, if anything?
>
> Python changes too often in incompatible ways and Rust is still going = through its Rust foundation stewardship changes (that didn=E2=80=99t form u= ntil 2021) plus if you bring Rust in, you=E2=80=99ll be immediately enmeshe= d in the =E2=80=9Cshould we just rewrite the kernel in rust?!=E2=80=9D topi= cs that seem to plague Linux.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Swift, on the other hand, is an a= pplication and service development language and sits nicely on top of what = FreeBSD already has - nobody=E2=80=99s going to push to rewrite the kernel = or base utilities in Swift, but you do get access to a very active communit= y and, of course, the backing of a major player like Apple and the open sou= rce swift ecosystem.
>
> I=E2=80=99m told that Swift also just announced support for FreeBSD, s= o if there is ever a time, this might be it?
> - Jordan

There is nothing wrong with resurrecting lang/swift in the ports [1],
this may bring Swift lovers to FreeBSD make it base for their servers
/ platforms / devices (maybe even porting macOS/iOS applications???),
just as it is with any other programming language already here (i.e.
Python), people will have choice whether use it or not with zero
impact on the kernel / base :-)

The problem was with "dump old bad C and rewrite everything in Swift just to get modern" because we clearly do not want to rewrite kernel /=
base in Swift :D :D

[1] ht= tps://www.freshports.org/lang/swift/

--
CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, = http://www.tomek.cedro.info

--000000000000ab80840637b8cc70-- From nobody Mon Jun 16 23:47:13 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bLmrj2rw6z5Vcvj for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 23:47:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-pf1-x429.google.com (mail-pf1-x429.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::429]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bLmrg6yZBz42yx for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 23:47:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com header.s=20230601 header.b=rmNRaf6y; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wlosh@bsdimp.com has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::429) smtp.mailfrom=wlosh@bsdimp.com; dmarc=none Received: by mail-pf1-x429.google.com with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-74801bc6dc5so4012591b3a.1 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 16:47:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1750117645; x=1750722445; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=oqwRC1kNpIUnoJTMy2uevmeqOmrymp6aFynED8UJcKU=; b=rmNRaf6y2GoYu0mM++p0uudt0bFH+1pnH0ZdpwyN/HdCFp0oL3oLB3SslDMA4RN9Th oAwwzHgHxqxJ12JZAqImaOLt2kG/TiSL6QR8btMRfQsr+j6vba3gZNyzrYBGNscIomYK 6EcGmX4aVUNG+VZi43QbX6FsdoAsmv7204kUXfGqXYm9NQtm1ST/KrUp/DSLG+iazBoS 9U5eaJv6uaceHkWlyi6JF0MtoAME8a5heiFLNhpCtHSF8mNbe/Bwtz/Wa/5Px3PRx8fC Rdj7TOioh70qKrLnNRtIRSD2Ro02aOtVNbl2RlsFPkjW476byjyU9yu6rQ5kyDFD8sNs frZw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1750117645; x=1750722445; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=oqwRC1kNpIUnoJTMy2uevmeqOmrymp6aFynED8UJcKU=; b=cP237442C4fWlvicsFaFXlnILUKK0L2Cj5f7PUPEYmlTH0FdmZ68PmafCp5rY4LSN0 /MaP7UOoUkt97bOJNqXiEhG/u1IKZ1S3zqYqZXkv7P3RuhCsXgjSWU+sjbpbH/MPMnSW qiBWes0lUZZr4FDzvxNaJg40lORXdtds0iHtLtZPUVWDPSXxG2d+F4xkyP7JKIa/8oXs IKhACJ0viG6iAik3yNkpmh1CW/T9xI0MlR4pzCJkYnHfCfaJUSsw9cU/eM7ItBTltjU0 pdW+s5jfWqBwvmstQGSFwqXBreMcwzGTL+gQvMQxzaHYBo9CVPaxzaYTWD+uIw660kkX O+3A== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCVqJOSwBlmCeu9e3Bukktbtd0muOWpuhce6ic6YnrPEB0BCdMqQ7kCpw01MmBIIw+soDMtpQLUpZKg0jbLpRZ4=@freebsd.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxxzMbOy1tntqsnSZZv/XbBe/N0UT8f2SKePZXtVbfOu5hPWTgm 5wevctBNRyWrCLfzH/TRb8mEcoQbUDTUsrvjM7FU2pF5srkLHmproWIZwiSs5VyyjbxZH8e6vIf wMha/ANHUNcLmtFkAzpf4vLCdjQ0truzrzeIon6fzoiGGBT8HsdRgpQ4= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncvodQtGSu5ENhGcAoC9P9z6JKHULc719g5U2XZ9euMFzwX6T9gpI/hebL40NNL Y35QGk/wQOfCF1GJgdeEiehmUfRm2eLqLWBIo7iD52JbEKxeI1G16N1Q1erPrnpJlkiBrncTt/H Cz/rEyYsNBQy5cjsGjyzU8Am/hwiWxA780rQOKrVMch7W+/IVb9lCfrglqUUIuW+LdOwgCOxfK3 Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGr8lJ+dtr3AmHBRg5/44cmAohDU+5WkadI61YgSOdMnG7k5Jz+bCvBamP+Qphb11RdZ0o7K5VLkgPZYNGw1kk= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:9181:b0:748:a0b9:f873 with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-748a0b9f8d2mr13168267b3a.9.1750117645217; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 16:47:25 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7344B44E-0AED-44CA-903D-B8DFC2D56311@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2025 17:47:13 -0600 X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFub-J1p5Oaxu-yVGcn4Fd2SEn_mUw1Yms1VjYcGuo0JgNsrMyMAy8mIb6c Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Thought experiment] Bringing swift into an experimental branch? To: Rob Wing Cc: Tomek CEDRO , Jordan Hubbard , FreeBSD Hackers Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008f07af0637b904d0" X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.67 / 15.00]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.93)[-0.934]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.56)[-0.557]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.34)[-0.339]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com:s=20230601]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bsdimp.com]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[cedro.info,gmail.com,freebsd.org]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com:+]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::429:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bLmrg6yZBz42yx X-Spamd-Bar: / --0000000000008f07af0637b904d0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jun 16, 2025, 5:33=E2=80=AFPM Rob Wing wrote: > can someone (who was around at the time) school us on why perl was > removed from base? Short summary: Evolved too quickly, so stable branches were hard; A lot of work to keep up to date; A real ecosystem that should have had parts imported, but that was impractical; and conflicts with port installed versions. and why introducing language XYZ won=E2=80=99t suffer the same issues/fate? > Indeed. That's always the question. But we have external toolchain support now that would help. Warner On Monday, June 16, 2025, Tomek CEDRO wrote: > >> On Tue, Jun 17, 2025 at 12:05=E2=80=AFAM Jordan Hubbard >> wrote: >> > I know that the topic of =E2=80=9Cbringing additional languages=E2=80= =9D into OSes is >> controversial and, frankly, we made a bad call with macOS when we brough= t >> the kitchen sink in (everything from Tcl to Python) and regretted it >> afterwards, so this is just a thought experiment, as noted in the subjec= t. >> > >> > All that said, I think a more modern language than C++ being readily >> available has a useful way of shifting development and generating some >> excitement, and a modern language that is also strongly supported by you= r >> existing clang / LLVM compiler toolchain represents an increment along t= he >> same evolutionary path. It=E2=80=99s also a language that needs a numbe= r of >> components to be tightly in sync (libdispatch, clang, llvm, various >> compilation tools and libraries, etc) before any 3rd party developer can >> even compile it for FreeBSD, so saying =E2=80=9Cit=E2=80=99s a ports col= lection problem=E2=80=9D >> may ultimately work, but not without considerable pain, as evidenced by = the >> fact that ports/lang/swift does not exist. >> > >> > Why swift, if anything? >> > >> > Python changes too often in incompatible ways and Rust is still going >> through its Rust foundation stewardship changes (that didn=E2=80=99t for= m until >> 2021) plus if you bring Rust in, you=E2=80=99ll be immediately enmeshed = in the >> =E2=80=9Cshould we just rewrite the kernel in rust?!=E2=80=9D topics tha= t seem to plague >> Linux. Swift, on the other hand, is an application and service >> development language and sits nicely on top of what FreeBSD already has = - >> nobody=E2=80=99s going to push to rewrite the kernel or base utilities i= n Swift, >> but you do get access to a very active community and, of course, the >> backing of a major player like Apple and the open source swift ecosystem= . >> > >> > I=E2=80=99m told that Swift also just announced support for FreeBSD, s= o if >> there is ever a time, this might be it? >> > - Jordan >> >> There is nothing wrong with resurrecting lang/swift in the ports [1], >> this may bring Swift lovers to FreeBSD make it base for their servers >> / platforms / devices (maybe even porting macOS/iOS applications???), >> just as it is with any other programming language already here (i.e. >> Python), people will have choice whether use it or not with zero >> impact on the kernel / base :-) >> >> The problem was with "dump old bad C and rewrite everything in Swift >> just to get modern" because we clearly do not want to rewrite kernel / >> base in Swift :D :D >> >> [1] https://www.freshports.org/lang/swift/ >> >> -- >> CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info >> >> --0000000000008f07af0637b904d0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, Jun 16, 2025, 5:33=E2=80= =AFPM Rob Wing <rob.fx907@gmail.c= om> wrote:
can someone (who = was around at the time) school us =C2=A0on why perl was removed from base?<= /blockquote>

Short= summary: Evolved too quickly, so stable branches were hard; A lot of work = to keep up to date; A real ecosystem that should have had parts imported, b= ut that was impractical; and conflicts with port installed versions.
<= div dir=3D"auto">

and why introducing language XYZ won=E2=80=99t suffer the same issu= es/fate?

Indeed. That's always the question. But we have external tool= chain support now that would help.

Warner

O= n Monday, June 16, 2025, Tomek CEDRO <tomek@cedro.info> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On Tue, Jun 17, 2025 at 12:05=E2=80=AFAM Jord= an Hubbard
<jordan.hubbard@gmail.com> wrote:
> I know that the topic of =E2=80=9Cbringing additional languages=E2=80= =9D into OSes is controversial and, frankly, we made a bad call with macOS = when we brought the kitchen sink in (everything from Tcl to Python) and reg= retted it afterwards, so this is just a thought experiment, as noted in the= subject.
>
> All that said, I think a more modern language than C++ being readily a= vailable has a useful way of shifting development and generating some excit= ement, and a modern language that is also strongly supported by your existi= ng clang / LLVM compiler toolchain represents an increment along the same e= volutionary path.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s also a language that needs a number of= components to be tightly in sync (libdispatch, clang, llvm, various compil= ation tools and libraries, etc) before any 3rd party developer can even com= pile it for FreeBSD, so saying =E2=80=9Cit=E2=80=99s a ports collection pro= blem=E2=80=9D may ultimately work, but not without considerable pain, as ev= idenced by the fact that ports/lang/swift does not exist.
>
> Why swift, if anything?
>
> Python changes too often in incompatible ways and Rust is still going = through its Rust foundation stewardship changes (that didn=E2=80=99t form u= ntil 2021) plus if you bring Rust in, you=E2=80=99ll be immediately enmeshe= d in the =E2=80=9Cshould we just rewrite the kernel in rust?!=E2=80=9D topi= cs that seem to plague Linux.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Swift, on the other hand, is an a= pplication and service development language and sits nicely on top of what = FreeBSD already has - nobody=E2=80=99s going to push to rewrite the kernel = or base utilities in Swift, but you do get access to a very active communit= y and, of course, the backing of a major player like Apple and the open sou= rce swift ecosystem.
>
> I=E2=80=99m told that Swift also just announced support for FreeBSD, s= o if there is ever a time, this might be it?
> - Jordan

There is nothing wrong with resurrecting lang/swift in the ports [1],
this may bring Swift lovers to FreeBSD make it base for their servers
/ platforms / devices (maybe even porting macOS/iOS applications???),
just as it is with any other programming language already here (i.e.
Python), people will have choice whether use it or not with zero
impact on the kernel / base :-)

The problem was with "dump old bad C and rewrite everything in Swift just to get modern" because we clearly do not want to rewrite kernel /=
base in Swift :D :D

[1] https://www.freshports.org/lang/swift/

--
CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info

--0000000000008f07af0637b904d0-- From nobody Mon Jun 16 23:55:26 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bLn261zLTz5VdMZ for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 23:55:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net [65.75.216.6]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bLn254TV3z3CmX; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 23:55:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id 55GNtQGY021065; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 16:55:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id 55GNtQDW021064; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 16:55:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <202506162355.55GNtQDW021064@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: [maybe spam] Re: A modern programming language for FreeBSD: Swift In-Reply-To: <71d166d8-0a5b-4cb4-87c8-ee292b50e81b@freebsd.org> To: Julian Elischer Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2025 16:55:26 -0700 (PDT) CC: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bLn254TV3z3CmX X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:10494, ipnet:65.75.216.0/23, country:US] > On 6/14/25 10:06 PM, Konstantin Belousov wrote: > > On Sat, Jun 14, 2025 at 01:06:40PM +0000, Jordan Gordeev wrote: > >> * support for dynamic linking (incl. to libc for isolating generated code from changes to the userland?kernel interface) > > What specifically do you mean there? > > > > Does swift run over the C runtime, or like Go, it implements its own > > runtime directly interacting with kernel syscalls? > > I have a Basic to C converter on my BSD web page..? I haven't changed > it for? a couple of decade or so but it did run last I looked.. Maybe > we can use it to maintain FreeBSD in basic!?? Only takes a few > millisecs to covert a CBASIC program to C.?? Lets go for a language > that isn't "fashionable", but really has history! > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBASIC As much as I like the simplistic idea of BASIC, having first learned it in 1969, I would rather if we must retrograde lets pick something with a "bit" more "bit handling" like PL/1? https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/SSY2V3_5.1.0/com.ibm.ent.pl1.zos.doc/lrm.pdf -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From nobody Tue Jun 17 00:49:17 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bLpD13N3zz5Vj91 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 00:49:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@portsmon.org) Received: from MTA-06-4.privateemail.com (mta-06-4.privateemail.com [198.54.122.146]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bLpD071DZz426Z for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 00:49:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@portsmon.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from mta-06.privateemail.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mta-06.privateemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bLpCy2zG4z3hhW8; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 20:49:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from APP-20 (unknown [10.50.14.244]) by mta-06.privateemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 20:49:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2025 19:49:17 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Linimon To: Alek Da man , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <1558357308.155492.1750121357324@privateemail.com> In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: How to enter SOC Porting? List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.6-Rev78 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bLpD071DZz426Z X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:22612, ipnet:198.54.122.0/24, country:US] > I want to enter SOC Porting My guess that within FreeBSD, the source code is going to be your only reference, e.g.: https://cgit.freebsd.org/src/tree/sys/arm64 and all the files underneath that directory. It might be better if you tell us specifically what you are trying to accomplish. mcl From nobody Tue Jun 17 01:05:13 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bLpZT758pz5Vk1x for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 01:05:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from karl@denninger.net) Received: from colo1.denninger.net (colo1.denninger.net [104.236.120.189]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bLpZS4YSYz4GWp for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 01:05:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from karl@denninger.net) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of karl@denninger.net designates 104.236.120.189 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=karl@denninger.net; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=denninger.net Received: from denninger.net (unknown [162.81.131.136]) by colo1.denninger.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19ECFB11E6 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 21:05:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.10.13] (D3.Denninger.Net [192.168.10.13]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange x25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by denninger.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 95EDD4C835D for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 21:05:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2025 21:05:13 -0400 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Content-Language: en-US To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org From: Karl Denninger Subject: An idea for the EFI (LUA) loader.... 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Here's the scenario: You have an embedded system that boots EFI.=C2=A0 You can't control other than the media that's in the b= ox that it boots from (which someone sticks in there.)=C2=A0 There m= ight be other media in there, and there might not.

Right now the FreeBSD EFI loader will boot from the first bootable "thing" it finds unless told otherwise (e.g. "rootdev=3D")=

The problem is that it wants something like "rootdev=3Ddisk0s1a" -= - a full specification.

But what happens if someone sticks another device in there and the EFI BIOS enumerates it first?=C2=A0 Its not bootable (doe= sn't have an EFI partition) so the BIOS doesn't try to boot it, but it does enumerate it so now the disk is "disk1s1a" -- and if you set disk0 you are now stuck at the loader prompt.

Which is ok if there's a console you can key in where to boot from and then fix loader.conf.=C2=A0 If the machine is headless....= =2E

If loader.efi could take a syntax without the disk (e.g. "s1a") and, if that was what was specified it would look on the device loader.efi was loaded from then it wouldn't matter if someone did this.=C2=A0 Once the kernel is loaded it shou= ld be ok.

You'd think you could detect this with either efibootmgr (what order will it enumerate in?) or from sysctl to figure out where it booted from, but nope -- what's in there may not match how the BIOS enumerated it, never mind that someone could unplug a USB device (or pull an nVME stick) and change it.=C2=A0 I've got a mach= ine here that demonstrates this; it SAYS it loaded off disk0 but the BIOS says the boot device is disk1 and if I put disk0.... in loader.conf it tries to boot the nVME device instead of the USB stick.

A minimal way would be to be able to discern what the BIOS saw as the enumerated device it loaded from, but even better, I think, would be to be able to specify just the partition and slice/filesystem and have the drive default to "where loader.efi came from" which, I suspect, would resolve both possibilities.=C2=A0= Obviously if the BIOS enumerates something that has a valid EFI partition it can still get it wrong but if not that should work -- yes?

Am I nuts? :-)

PS: I've got zero experience with lua as a language so if I start digging into this the learning curve might be pretty steep where for someone who's coded in lua it might be five minutes..... unless I'm wildly off-base here.

--
Karl Denninger
karl@denninger.net
The Market Ticker
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From: Borja Marcos In-Reply-To: <20250617013743.3b5108f0@rimwks.local> Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2025 08:02:08 +0200 Cc: Jordan Hubbard , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-Id: <1632F5EA-8DFC-4764-96E4-E2633BA0C2FF@sarenet.es> References: <7344B44E-0AED-44CA-903D-B8DFC2D56311@gmail.com> <20250617013743.3b5108f0@rimwks.local> To: Rozhuk Ivan X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.600.51.1.1) X-dominio-dkim: sarenet.es X-rutado-saremail: smtp1176 X-Saremail-UUID: 20250617060219.6CEDC60C402@sieve-smtp-backend01.sarenet.es X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.50 / 15.00]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.962]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.71)[0.707]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.65)[-0.648]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[sarenet.es,reject]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[sarenet.es:s=saremail]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:195.16.151.0/24]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_HELO_LOCALHOST(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[sarenet.es:dkim]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[gmail.com,freebsd.org]; HAS_ATTACHMENT(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[sarenet.es:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[194.30.0.65:received]; ASN(0.00)[asn:3262, ipnet:195.16.128.0/19, country:ES]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bLx9J1cQRz47qS X-Spamd-Bar: -- --Apple-Mail=_A79BC85D-B991-4436-845D-81EBE375351E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On 17 Jun 2025, at 00:37, Rozhuk Ivan wrote: >=20 > No modern language required, even C++ is to complex to learn it. > C just works, like it work 30-40 years ago. > All can be done on C. Well, if counting bytes is your thing, yes, everything can be done in C. = The fact that using a systems programming=20 language for applications is a bad idea has been proven beyond doubt. = ;) The problem is language stability as Jordan pointed out. I remember I = said something similar about Rust. 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To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <7344B44E-0AED-44CA-903D-B8DFC2D56311@gmail.com> <20250617013743.3b5108f0@rimwks.local> Content-Language: en-US From: Paul Floyd In-Reply-To: <20250617013743.3b5108f0@rimwks.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.00 / 15.00]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(1.00)[1.000]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.98)[0.979]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.978]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20230601]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::330:from]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bLxPL6YW8z4GMw X-Spamd-Bar: + On 17/06/2025 00:37, Rozhuk Ivan wrote: > > No modern language required, even C++ is to complex to learn it. > C just works, like it work 30-40 years ago. > All can be done on C. > > All modern today become unmodern in 5-10 years and it will require many > man power to support it. I don't think that "do nothing" is a viable option. Until Trump came with slash and burn libertarian anti-regulation ideology the world was heading to much stronger regulation for safety and security. C is simply a basket case. It is hopelessly inadequate for ANY safety or security mitigations. I don't believe that the C standard will add anything that will change that significantly - there are some proposals but my view is that either they don't go far enough or they won't be accepted. The advantage with these "complex" languages (specifically Rust but also other languages like Swift, Zig, Hylo and C++) is that either they already have builtin safety or they have enough "meta" that they can be extended to add safety. That said, there's a lot more to safety and security than just the code. Rewriting millions of code of unsafe C that has been hardened by decades of work to plaster over the CVEs is just going to lead to a rash of new exploits and crashes. A+ Paul From nobody Tue Jun 17 06:47:36 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bLy9Y39zHz5pwwr for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 06:47:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from delphij@delphij.net) Received: from anubis.delphij.net (hermod.delphij.net [192.234.79.157]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "anubis.delphij.net", Issuer "R10" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bLy9X4x00z3HlB for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 06:47:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from delphij@delphij.net) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=delphij.net header.s=y07n header.b=MrWzwXda; dkim=pass header.d=delphij.net header.s=w44o header.b=an61uMrN; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of delphij@delphij.net designates 192.234.79.157 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=delphij@delphij.net; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=delphij.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=ed25519-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=delphij.net; i=@delphij.net; q=dns/txt; s=y07n; t=1750142857; h=message-id : date : mime-version : reply-to : subject : to : references : from : in-reply-to : content-type : from; bh=r/VzVzHUXFE0ZujOoJCARYqCGZKHyHXW3r+DjPwJaAo=; b=MrWzwXdaVl/TBcM/5eaFMr6owmbOs+/5gka1FEpo7V3IjhRGskXJXEBdB3fsET7EpwtVb 7T86Ge5JxLjgO+rBg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=delphij.net; i=@delphij.net; q=dns/txt; s=w44o; t=1750142857; h=message-id : date : mime-version : reply-to : subject : to : references : from : in-reply-to : content-type : from; bh=r/VzVzHUXFE0ZujOoJCARYqCGZKHyHXW3r+DjPwJaAo=; b=an61uMrNiyOOebdUQaQGRuWO9o/ukl7z0NkQOhS/HNY3WTlFyZsWQ17RJb6spNKEKCf3Y 9zwzgVG8R4vrtAF9oixDGWZGkWXIegeEuLgnrHivKe3XaGVoPPmjbMDaW6oRuCkrzwzdg8v dlJDoRseK/6NCoD06cLFv4ImaecFhpU/jz4giS2RXaQNmzAZMwCHP9vKvIxNxh2fD6UWDV9 2TbZPekn5OMruqpfAL7W5kV/N4UYhmaO5icRhnDmM4AMn7v/nr0RMKWBB97W5npH1RT4fie DE3tvROgVjnVvrqEJSbSk4f2tS2OXJKy/FucK3tHWQkWZQJW11NyVCvcO/DA== Received: by anubis.delphij.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7B55954E0; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 23:47:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9c7f2953-2fb3-4c36-977c-41aa7fd55c5c@delphij.net> Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2025 23:47:36 -0700 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Reply-To: d@delphij.net Subject: Re: An idea for the EFI (LUA) loader.... To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: Content-Language: en-US From: Xin Li Autocrypt: addr=delphij@delphij.net; keydata= xjMEZPbDoRYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAsUNmxEWz6QiGdFbBrVVEpjNpgQV9FXjDWsLsY0UwRPvN HFhpbiBMSSA8ZGVscGhpakBkZWxwaGlqLm5ldD7ClgQTFgoAPhYhBLskk2pXNatsapeNzxED 4uuXWeTFBQJk9sRMAhsDBQkKBDXmBQsJCAcDBRUKCQgLBRYCAwEAAh4FAheAAAoJEBED4uuX WeTF6yIA/2Ls3Rb/qC8mQZ6D2S0UO5vblPghJfboFJLNJFw3i4GYAQCsTmQg3ahgbNEJu/vU xgtro2kTxa6kKnZ35IbqPqPcCc44BGT2w6ESCisGAQQBl1UBBQEBB0Cxji+sQgVPajLNA/Lw yHx0ogSalPQszdkfVgeg3iR3FAMBCAfCeAQYFgoAIBYhBLskk2pXNatsapeNzxED4uuXWeTF BQJk9sOhAhsMAAoJEBED4uuXWeTF3BQBAIx/gPCTFN2DPBrKLkE3oC/+j9EkmNLMUCGidlP/ Zb6HAP4nL1kStTsOldIGhi/3m1LvU7r3Kel3MnlIK8/9BlLPAg== In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------qsi8XxYgbNe104zY0FRWls5a" X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.06 / 15.00]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; MIME_BASE64_TEXT_BOGUS(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.83)[0.826]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.70)[-0.695]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.61)[0.609]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[delphij.net,reject]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[delphij.net:s=y07n,delphij.net:s=w44o]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.20)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,multipart/mixed,text/plain]; MIME_BASE64_TEXT(0.10)[]; REPLYTO_DOM_EQ_FROM_DOM(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:+,3:~]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[delphij.net:+]; HAS_ATTACHMENT(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:394144, ipnet:192.234.79.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[delphij]; REPLYTO_DOM_NEQ_TO_DOM(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[d@delphij.net]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bLy9X4x00z3HlB X-Spamd-Bar: - This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------qsi8XxYgbNe104zY0FRWls5a Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------cBYoARcH1sTyRCwK906v0Ssp"; protected-headers="v1" From: Xin Li Reply-To: d@delphij.net To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <9c7f2953-2fb3-4c36-977c-41aa7fd55c5c@delphij.net> Subject: Re: An idea for the EFI (LUA) loader.... 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Tue, 17 Jun 2025 04:22:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-ThreadId: Tf8d5dd1176fac7b7 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2025 08:21:51 +0000 From: "Dave Cottlehuber" To: "Alek Da man" Cc: "FreeBSD Hackers" Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: How to enter SOC Porting? Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bM0GZ5t52z45vR X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:151847, ipnet:103.168.172.0/24, country:AU] On Mon, 16 Jun 2025, at 22:54, Alek Da man wrote: > Hi, > > I want to enter SOC Porting but upon asking have gotten very abstract > material and am still not able to understand how it is done. > > I'm in search of a material or guide with end to end "handholding" on > how it's done. Any recommendations? > > // > Alek Welcome Alek. manu@ did a great talk on porting to a new board about 6 years ago: - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoB5NknHWbk - https://papers.freebsd.org/2018/bsdcan/vadot-FreeBSD_ARM32_ARM64_Porting_to_a_new_board.files/vadot-FreeBSD_ARM32_ARM64_Porting_to_a_new_board.pdf Some of his earlier work may also still be useful - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWhPfW9HdyA - https://www.bidouilliste.com/blog/2015/11/27/Porting-FreeBSD-to-a-new-ARM-Board-Part-1/tweb There is a reasonably active IRC channel on EFnet, called #bsdmips good for a chat. A+ Dave From nobody Tue Jun 17 08:35:31 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bM0Xl0L7dz5q58Z for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 08:34:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from anthony.pankov@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic306-19.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic306-19.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.176.205]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bM0Xk691Jz3D1D for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 08:34:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from anthony.pankov@yahoo.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1750149264; bh=MuXFEUtyzdlUE5ItysVFrc7KIWNHgG1j/cgInekDZfw=; h=Date:From:To:CC:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=O5cKpf0SRTWddhenorCu2qxjYlltbf1pEO66/u2hVqm3W60wRK3DvLba99hwQhyEuX6YyNzYmVZdd7iXWqlv6EiTitAK6e5BmozWKPThG5UfG5wmmW3q0r1cmwkseqTcKRhFxEgBX1J41lQt4qdVgwr4tPYV5H0kHxbc6eTp/uWjQ8BVnn1cvWfUBdn68EXcpcb3K67yDwFFr6LCOKcJKu7pw9yHaQ5dDntEkSPvkx6xHH0FJIhLw4ViEjIT/5bQPvmuAutPAnTveCP7h5ujf2cOwE5KqCn2EkeFBN+N8Utq7o5Jm0pqpHiLaGdXDwme+2w0qSo0YIzb9YIAW9Ebjg== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1750149264; bh=7nSpEJTqh+sIxxPaHUCkp7etw0JYm+hL5lJxzMlgZE3=; h=X-Sonic-MF:Date:From:To:Subject:From:Subject; b=kMAPA5Bse2d/oSXpavatEV0XPh3PVdLdv1EcP5QWTl+Bp/jDZuPAtSYp6lFzSZdEPKESMYiTvAVQSXT6jwhdXXrYW/wpS3ECIU4AY6flCHJzDaDNHZiq09C4SxdCjY5Q8fPYWxF++9XNztwQk4828PCmHlidLPL2cKT3NvBl4GfkR9iW5XP02DCnWYNPcNdpBc7WXGG2ewTpH4HDqtP8j/lTkv+w3oGpxITprS5lJvWBMSXyI/pXi8q4+RwLTCXk+uIDYy14wAb6VRXoKPOebT1ajj9LiQnKv0W5gkiXgPmuXRaIgG4ovy+1VFnDu3DrRpkY7PXwJHDRuK2CYhibWg== X-YMail-OSG: OMepbAgVM1nicPLoOMDhlsLmrCZT94VgiLBPDDuKgPUQ7HG9WjhaBrXMPVMrs_. .DZvC69RRCM16SjeTnRdMrba8lO1lXwCsfff7ve0w0HH9rq78LU2p62byxFLsHCnAmEqOJZI5X2K cjx6.CulG11jxZc7fuq1D7BSbuIE3X5lHS94gkNG2a5QjZoJQw6zdlfhU0DNiGMr_jEUVrcUm..b me9kqS4pq7f4BLU66.qv_ioCd2t2dbNr.W_39DVBlpG2ybenDTNuLQcwq_wNgKxhJHhDDRPl9P3A .mJEC3rqKjG.W0Cm9_AM3j.OFU8YL.H0Uzd_xOV92Ws99jsFpgO0ZYRHCrAtbg1kLuEMtKugqhf9 UHOSxliAmTWBEJ8LM7if1nYwnh9BCrU81M4sKNaJrm._6J7ti8wFdMpOpGhv8qo.OVJhJewju6b9 6CvfAXX5E4l1oOLaC5ikxjo9Xt4jEQhG0LzB6zelf2eGOfeRkmi4dhz2IxykUXnILgTmaZslMDKK 21.3TxzeN5Q9riHaWo15PnswGfYhVpygDx59jzJ.IP._.ada9Xk2G6YsZRRFXcta850W_vsCqbuU ozL2ZrIS_5vsqi3yPQIoEUNv5ZgTD3FoxHzNedYs9MnHSX0EyYWkGM_5RIvAIMiimenZUYSRUDor 2gJYrimP.SPEpHLRsPOLrjC0xdA.81P0r2ozw_MqV9XlV3juYSpbiCOhSPu8NnFmB8rPPcxnVGwx 9lAxaHG81HeE966.ALWAhZiIBxFF6lqrxv6_9jVcIqVIpg1w_RIjOlrT85F0wqOilx4GRPm3FxA6 jVN2LEtjgBrolCq6Khwav_N91vqd5vYFIR9QN3YM1hjW4yLPKSpz.Sp2XTttceSVSjN94WN13xkb KvD2mGWYw6XQlRIadglftFCN8DN9j.cl3DIftA7DitjT7zVIL3HjPSynGIOboSfp9Qb1K_3cPBte ig0NV9jWki8roMCI2kvt1l4AD6JJe9xG_27okdt_80YmQWOsAhVzqTVcWpGbjeGU2VMxi3lNSeWx MtCSGV1tf4MPmvrRUx4KltH2M78UZJV04wzCcXVTILP9AXdBiyw8q8sik2QwJDQj18Jp4RY7MeW_ ot_IaGkwQadFEllQVP1WF5JgeOeA7G9wG0rXQUBNwS06xUNFwDa7WCDUIOWYxIVJgzr7cVoChZMX XwyCEVuxJ7dWDf0c4zxkJDB83GwTndh.0YyaIEzf2C3bEoPWaHiIArMGeQt.W4VRoTF0BYEGVynZ mLa_VXgzwx9rOhGW.GJkVQYfsPw6ihkzu7UHwUuhxmS50Il9ecirGfQITZYZPzyAP_gMLQtSWds9 qJK5VCzTVa8.jXKQ2Elhq4OWzFhnbrOYHTZZZXILGEbq.FrlNHiTxSG_aQZ5FjrLCVXqO6MxDksE r.hxM7RRAmrWPR0TSnJloGYwlQYMX8qUUHwin1_uB7L2_M_tqHsu1NAhEBlfplGS3.9xqbWM.BpX WPw3mAcx5Zxm80SToCOB.xIYYwXYCdBM0JpU4bIRjFd8xIIT192qCb_cyyF7YtdFkdKIrxb2LLSg ZA0LjzckQZvXhxKy_YqoXIs.CogMI5dcsYGzRobRE8B9j2DeYaSNZ1TJGmnhR1YivnqYBi._.VZO t_lhZLgfm9i2bOYVINHUuwmCgezpupNj0c5K7j1gUOH4IOJHkUBUks.7wT5BiM4lwdl.i7u7bDo0 kilu1DDr20VRoi58ca0Zi6q6fHj6bgb9GizAh4kRXQa3QzE3Nw4LucbUyF.P1__Wp0Ye.s8e6oLQ 9lih6oPZbbj_xsBiyChwOzCJl5Ag0gCHmshnLnUR8cN9ostOcbQrqjd0RoHGUuLVeUF30ajkspvK HU4vUz.5pWLhALyzq8PgNDkm0sQefmAXG0c7ZudzRnz7d8vAr6qrjCyfsi.hEsQHJ6qR9YWEQ6eD OYCSkLRr70YlykHG1GdO8V0eZPIB2fNJPMDEU1EcI._wyk141MiRZ2Ldp9UhTqpPp32SPV6ghm.p kUNG00WS5AISfuouD9XoNMa0dTAdRg9VcorpGDKH9I4teQlDxpW59UhapntTWZWuO2s4Uew_12X2 B_VqFbH4G9LMnZO7TZnESNs9bsjqcJwBVNjtLvEn6zYqF4N5G9DiFx9evxWdo5Vf2Coj3EwDdVbH PFUJBVz_JJxmR8rDEt3cG3gogY5Ho0BjYdcwTIxotfdmXpID6Ki_1FSh9k7dfaq0eU_Zyhwu9Kdc JIZGsrx.C6nYRR78CKMSAl2PrVGoE7u4- X-Sonic-MF: X-Sonic-ID: 24d1d0a6-099d-4ca3-aa2f-fa2929f4075d Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic306.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 08:34:24 +0000 Received: by hermes--production-ir2-858bd4ff7b-rsjdf (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID e42c586765251fbf0363eb7fd62e096f; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 08:34:21 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2025 11:35:31 +0300 From: Anthony Pankov Message-ID: <1065468664.20250617113531@yahoo.com> To: "Rodney W. Grimes" , Julian Elischer CC: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: [maybe spam] Re: A modern programming language for FreeBSD: Swift In-Reply-To: <202506162355.55GNtQDW021064@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> References: <71d166d8-0a5b-4cb4-87c8-ee292b50e81b@freebsd.org> <202506162355.55GNtQDW021064@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.24021 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bM0Xk691Jz3D1D X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB] Hello, I think that modern, "safe", hyped language with transpiler to C will have no objection to include to the src base. May be this is the way. https://github.com/dbohdan/compilers-targeting-c Tuesday, June 17, 2025, 2:55:26 AM, you wrote: >> On 6/14/25 10:06 PM, Konstantin Belousov wrote: >> > On Sat, Jun 14, 2025 at 01:06:40PM +0000, Jordan Gordeev wrote: >> >> * support for dynamic linking (incl. to libc for isolating generated code from changes to the userland?kernel interface) >> > What specifically do you mean there? >> > >> > Does swift run over the C runtime, or like Go, it implements its own >> > runtime directly interacting with kernel syscalls? >> >> I have a Basic to C converter on my BSD web page..? I haven't changed >> it for? a couple of decade or so but it did run last I looked.. Maybe >> we can use it to maintain FreeBSD in basic!?? Only takes a few >> millisecs to covert a CBASIC program to C.?? Lets go for a language >> that isn't "fashionable", but really has history! >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBASIC > As much as I like the simplistic idea of BASIC, having first learned > it in 1969, I would rather if we must retrograde lets pick something > with a "bit" more "bit handling" like PL/1? > > https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/SSY2V3_5.1.0/com.ibm.ent.pl1.zos.doc/lrm.pdf -- Best regards, Anthony From nobody Tue Jun 17 10:18:13 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bM2s247dGz5y6Yx for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 10:18:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from karl@denninger.net) Received: from colo1.denninger.net (colo1.denninger.net [104.236.120.189]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bM2s12wzyz3q37 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 10:18:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from karl@denninger.net) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of karl@denninger.net designates 104.236.120.189 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=karl@denninger.net; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=denninger.net Received: from denninger.net (unknown [162.81.131.136]) by colo1.denninger.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A55CEB11E6 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 06:18:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.10.15] (D5.Denninger.Net [192.168.10.15]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange x25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by denninger.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D305E4C8CED for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 06:18:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <009e52a1-4d6f-42b6-905f-53fbf1c69065@denninger.net> Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2025 06:18:13 -0400 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: An idea for the EFI (LUA) loader.... 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On 6/17/2025 02:47, Xin Li wrote:
On 2025-06-16 18:05, Karl Denninger wrote:
The problem is that it wants something like "rootdev=3Ddisk0s1a" -- a full specification.

If ZFS is an option, you can say something like:

rootdev=3Dzfs:mydevice-boot/ROOT/default:
currdev=3Dzfs:mydevice-boot/ROOT/default:

in EFI's FreeBSD/loader.env; ZFS have much better way to find out the right device and does not rely on probe order.

But it isn't.

This is an "sort-of-embedded" environment.=C2=A0 The goal is "one media that boots them all, provided we have the drivers for your network card and its an AMD compatible CPU."

Thus it has to boot in something like a pcEngines apu2 (which has no idea what EFI is, and won't boot a GPT USB stick either) and also be able to be stuck into something like a GMKTek "cube PC" which has no CSM mode (EFI boot only.)=C2=A0 I'll live with the constraint that any other media in or connected to it (e.g. on a USB interface, etc) either can't be bootable OR you have set the boot order in the BIOS so the stick that's plugged in is the first to be considered.

I build these using "nanobsd" so they're power-fail safe and the capability to pull the stick in the event of a hardware failure, shove it into something else and with a de-minimus set of edits (e.g. "what are the ethernet interfaces called") if different (e.g. igb .vs. ix) it will come up and run.

Think edge gateway/firewall appliance.

I tend to stick these images out where anyone can grab and use them with a decent set of software included (e.g. Strongswan, etc.); I used to build them for the pcEngines internal sd card slot which came up as "mmcsd0" but those guys are gone, they're not fast enough to saturate a full gigabit connection anyway and, as it turns out, basically everything today when it boots FreeBSD identifies a USB stick as a "da" device, so if its the only storage device on USB it will come up as "da0" which works nicely (and quite consistently) once the kernel is loaded.=C2=A0 The goal = is "one image that will boot and run on most, from old and crusty to new and shiny."

The key element that drives the request is that nanobsd allows online updating -- that is, there are two system partitions and you can update the one that isn't running with a "dd" and then reboot to activate it.=C2=A0 I resolved the issue of losing the dat= a partition in the nanobsd build if you have EFI as an option but that leaves me with this which I've not been successful sorting out reliably with the tools available.

--
Karl Denninger
karl@denninger.net
The Market Ticker
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rimwks.local ([2001:470:1f1b:4dc:7883:6512:5e84:d972]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 5b1f17b1804b1-4532e169d90sm177120755e9.32.2025.06.17.05.12.34 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 17 Jun 2025 05:12:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Rozhuk Ivan X-Google-Original-From: Rozhuk Ivan Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2025 15:12:32 +0300 To: Borja Marcos Cc: Jordan Hubbard , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Thought experiment] Bringing swift into an experimental branch? Message-ID: <20250617151232.76a895f4@rimwks.local> In-Reply-To: <1632F5EA-8DFC-4764-96E4-E2633BA0C2FF@sarenet.es> References: <7344B44E-0AED-44CA-903D-B8DFC2D56311@gmail.com> <20250617013743.3b5108f0@rimwks.local> <1632F5EA-8DFC-4764-96E4-E2633BA0C2FF@sarenet.es> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 4.3.0 (GTK 3.24.49; amd64-portbld-freebsd14.3) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bM5NQ1XmXz3X5H X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] On Tue, 17 Jun 2025 08:02:08 +0200 Borja Marcos wrote: > > On 17 Jun 2025, at 00:37, Rozhuk Ivan wrote: > > > > No modern language required, even C++ is to complex to learn it. > > C just works, like it work 30-40 years ago. > > All can be done on C. > > Well, if counting bytes is your thing, yes, everything can be done in > C. The fact that using a systems programming language for > applications is a bad idea has been proven beyond doubt. ;) > > The problem is language stability as Jordan pointed out. I remember I > said something similar about Rust. > "systems programming language" - does not exist. OS have no complex applications, even assembler can be used, Colibry OS as example. From nobody Tue Jun 17 15:17:32 2025 X-Original-To: hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bM9Tx6Zkpz5yRnj for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 15:17:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrm@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bM9Tx5vShz3YqT for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 15:17:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrm@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1750173461; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type; bh=/nISIwLVZhrg3bK4SMbjHlhZ7OvIo3ZvePhmHPX2Bl4=; b=F1FHjCn1+fYLfvbg5Ieg+HlNJX1eJab5Jp9wNNubnY5J9sHFL82nKOILnQkeHbLrjKIXnJ I0Qx20cBfFsszObXTfP4aYD05QSBkoCrSe8YbZ+AfdnwTCAopz4sJ6OIGoBQ9VQQI87HhM Pdotl4OLgXkpaoUX3Vy/jVBGOlJj5H8fcKgCYDey1uBDFaP/4S+INYcLbqbrBkQ2S/hHXw arnH6OGF5igmU1a+MSWqOX6fD1xGnPIaPaP5nWeANo8HOkFhv8Zl6Cch4wrHBBli2LvLaS u3thERJ+xViMz8s+hlZUZvuXf3Xodjq3X6IgbLj+cEVjjtt5gLoVexFzqtqBgw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1750173461; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type; bh=/nISIwLVZhrg3bK4SMbjHlhZ7OvIo3ZvePhmHPX2Bl4=; b=XI09dlnfp+vJU9GTrV9CJIe6eFzjB+g8bkxnUogfhLR/829UBuoOes1PLZylPfCUm7YInw k0mTWf3fL42h/F/2A82therqCXpdTaMdnw2dFi75fxZ96uPYSUHuRANf631qNlXM1TK/YI 7wXDeDV7N7QQwH6rv+QtAdSdpHsp5XXTKx8XWBc4ObINZpG7yDUjWzefnMqD4cFmIm9bEV O9T69XSs8xilwXnN6ruW3k16q1SNAzQGCmEr9+1rePshrSgZbW+gMzXr2iSj/tLDUV2tDT 7r55L1gHxnj9MpJWeAOu+UTIDBGDGPTw+nTvakoWNtgFG1VqPr9SdBCc9diUrg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1750173461; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=AzXEFahPEzzTSu31ubBslbAZ61rVURdwLgy8eJ6ESvbaEYx2xBoRHdttoP5FSesDzGrzsl udcxJrZm7LfDCeMIpr8joCEz+WJjalQlY/VKkivXcFFsHn+r4tGIsexCWaP918qlHD5iUA 9m/woW7MJL7SrJTTaojnxMnQwK1FsmOCjSkYgzbPHdwsVEbLRFepZSVQQg5Qjn/asPqYTQ j/zX+LxiKp9w6A3aG0PVGbYRECIp5mj2yx4O6AVk8TXns0eyRvx9PHgKLXhVC/aDswvSRD slc7qSonHwz8v0q77r/HVYbLFi7TJPV504w5g9N7TsoMtwn4f3zbT3XgYnqRXA== Received: from asn.ftfl.ca.ftfl.ca (unknown [208.72.125.4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: jrm/mail) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4bM9Tx4gn7z2tF for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 15:17:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrm@freebsd.org) From: Joseph Mingrone To: hackers@Freebsd.org Subject: Notes on improving the installer User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/31.0.50 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2025 11:17:32 -0400 Message-ID: <8634byieib.fsf@asn.ftfl.ca> List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Yesterday at the Kitchener-Waterloo hackathon, we spent a few hours reviewing the FreeBSD installer and identifying areas for improvement. We've documented our observations and suggestions on the wiki: https://wiki.freebsd.org/ImproveInstaller Feedback and contributions are welcome. Joe --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQKkBAEBCgCOFiEEVbCTpybDiFVxIrrVNqQMg7DW754FAmhRhw1fFIAAAAAALgAo aXNzdWVyLWZwckBub3RhdGlvbnMub3BlbnBncC5maWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldDU1 QjA5M0E3MjZDMzg4NTU3MTIyQkFENTM2QTQwQzgzQjBENkVGOUUQHGpybUBmcmVl YnNkLm9yZwAKCRA2pAyDsNbvngPHEACThcSuPw7CvOHpAxUHRQuB7HWzW8jzPwNC p39WWe0gsopfG7R6bT6DHsA3GyfTWeTGow2s+SOW3urIZ16HyPhsRCeaSIun2tGK CHwuWvdeMTI0pFUubTPWLfSETUCPotDZWA8x6wQ1wFtFm60f9GCsQMQ4i9UinUhR B035AWU9h8OOT/ZfLPnvPJ34iNtUtfhnkNVTsi0QhwVyZ5b30f7R3b9JnL8AX9AQ t45bT+NHXrolAQybpRRs8jmjOqIwyVOmanO5+R5hCZHv6cgFAcfWHfqyk51kMGo7 j5oboNVolx9bfYmwhQ/73/hh3PvxWj7iR2lmwJdC6QBER/puDUno4GlYz3Ytkl4B H1U/R5dxBeR3jpQGQMcQnwc0jM70bggbUrPcbB5QziWin/YpidUog9rt5EzJVQRD JnkHC7JzZKgwpyL4UqnDEF3Wk28cYQG2e5VGc8S+9iBG642V4yn0dxzAss6NqdNe X5eoujT3/Xng2ecNUH3ar3Xe4Wj+k9hp7R6mockW7t29cXNP5VitII93/JwC443c GDtZZj8lrJ8RnI93Gy8GA8WLXM1/Rqu4KQHwFk34FwLA34zNllQAeclosFQo1Qt1 m44xhx3tqfJEzflMszhcDKc4PTdqTqiHbAUT/62MPkXKE6fiWtyyY/cAA1V/Sm9G fE66nHrB2g== =P/Xx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Jun 17 15:26:46 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bM9hS4QcKz5ySb6 for ; 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Tue, 17 Jun 2025 15:26:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevans@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <91bc7e6e-e3b4-4771-a3e5-d9276829c630@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2025 10:26:46 -0500 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: Notes on improving the installer To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <8634byieib.fsf@asn.ftfl.ca> Content-Language: en-US From: Kyle Evans In-Reply-To: <8634byieib.fsf@asn.ftfl.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 6/17/25 10:17, Joseph Mingrone wrote: > Yesterday at the Kitchener-Waterloo hackathon, we spent a few hours > reviewing the FreeBSD installer and identifying areas for improvement. > We've documented our observations and suggestions on the wiki: > > https://wiki.freebsd.org/ImproveInstaller > > Feedback and contributions are welcome. > > Joe I added some notes for the loader-related entries, adding a new brand for the installer would be relatively easy -- someone just needs to design the art for it, ideally both ascii and a .png. Thanks, Kyle Evans From nobody Tue Jun 17 16:50:22 2025 X-Original-To: hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bMCY64H3Fz5yXqg for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 16:50:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bMCY63QSzz4F0j; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 16:50:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1750179034; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=94vjnoJKtxpZO7vXU5SIvvGU6ePas5phFgo8wEdwUu4=; b=SDF8Tks2RPzfX1D9kHK4b5YroYN5Kdqx/CiONU0qiS9eTYFe7PIT9Ocl0WbAr6XrfyMknr V57sEhYOiSkZ1F2r1htLB2XcCMWekHssSGupDSx/W2K6niE1rU+LsiyjgMA860jQwLCkmX VZeIwlRBEb6T+Wju967MPtAgS9pwzFcnq4wv3KikqDHDFoF5XJMZzMiutpI1ElSsR2aOJN 8pHo9piI+ADLqxjRjDV0JIJk1lblH9G2aTLNBTx8ztvs/DY5ZomJSSEVusRf1puJUmQB4a vCKzOFk7cmhIwuk6E0xNQZ6edrsxzvlUcQjU0XTmd2et4kUrqiQ0aWzws41B8w== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1750179034; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=94vjnoJKtxpZO7vXU5SIvvGU6ePas5phFgo8wEdwUu4=; b=UJE1v8gzzdI6YTuRQFUaInt1AZ79AenD3O2emxFORlPqLFRChU0CC5yCfL3qDrmianN9Kc wsVMXbcOppWG7/KAKimScfWN9/Rvd1qVGIIOhVitEDXq1yRPPOckYY0D6vdU262NOwPiCO y0Upub3Jg9jzWz/VdnwVoDnLdhHqe6fZXO6v8BuuSejNws+VEpukQg/jRBR09ILXEOIhAd VgSFNxj0m+yZLj+xelXjNuhJEbO75PQcvIwEumcm9sOhSoj2JT75spZYWxL/srvlgXKeDx zgyQEL6Eijd/9VcrGxkQ1sq+4GcshDFtqNTY7jYf+ZOZ4egOscdUkMYVQ93s2A== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1750179034; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=tIkthAcUEgsNz/q9ZjCjecHa/6Rx8hET8hwzeYqOGgolReAGTXteIp2lDUh2dYmppHbVd0 zdOYAsGy1/eYn5xhCfCVTJuaWqCVzMqAyM/Hwirrai7veJVyxGuAzdbgNBM3tNuhGHN0/P x2uwGZkfzZARmbb0QZnQh3LI+IFP/9F/Sh+HLAM3SqsZM0snaGfSuE3tpUX78+kVUvkeQx W4lpXhoFs41cF5E2e/yRxoUsUhBIqXuFkf2VmarXP8Klos8rd6LRbkHWxTEdSOFZ4oFeOo MVUjc5zdkaAr2KHny/kIRKJOuZ08r1jaEIaMYIwk2SBrKc5hYdNkeMg4ruDRXw== Received: from smtp.theravensnest.org (smtp.theravensnest.org [45.77.103.195]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: theraven) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4bMCY60wx3z4Jc; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 16:50:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from theraven@freebsd.org) Received: from smtpclient.apple (host86-143-41-189.range86-143.btcentralplus.com [86.143.41.189]) by smtp.theravensnest.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 98A22111E9; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 17:50:33 +0100 (BST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: David Chisnall List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: Notes on improving the installer Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2025 17:50:22 +0100 Message-Id: <69D0FE56-6D3E-4B49-9AD0-68752172FDC6@freebsd.org> References: <8634byieib.fsf@asn.ftfl.ca> Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <8634byieib.fsf@asn.ftfl.ca> To: Joseph Mingrone X-Mailer: iPad Mail (22F76) I recently used the installer for the first time in ages (most of my FreeBSD= installs have been around for many years) and was quite surprised that ther= e is absolutely no support for non-trivial ZFS installs. If you want to part= ition the disks yourself and then use ZFS, you have to: - Drop to the console. - Manually create the partitions. - Manually create each dataset (the list of the ones you need from the wiki= is stale). I would expect to be able to create the partitions in the partitions GUI, te= ll the installer the kind of ZFS pool to create (mirror, strip, RAID-Z[2]), a= nd then have it create all of the datasets for the install. It took me four a= ttempts to get this right (well, rightish. I missed a dataset and needed to c= reate it and shuffle files around later). Ideally, if you are partitioning multiple disks. It would be nice if there w= ere some way of saying =E2=80=98this partition map on all disks please=E2=80= =99. Creating the same partition layout on every disk in a RAID set is tedio= us. On top of this, there is no support (in the installer or, as far as I can te= ll, in freebsd-upgrade or pkgbase) for putting a UEFI partition on *each* di= sk and keeping them all up to date. It=E2=80=99s not so useful having a RAID= -Z or strip set if the bootloader isn=E2=80=99t mirrored (can gmirror manage= this transparently?). If you enable encrypted swap in the installer, it creates fstab entries that= create the GELI devices. It does not label the partitions (swap0, swap1, or= something useful) but uses the raw device nodes. Nothing in the system appe= ars to check the underlying partition type when enabling swap on these devic= es, so if you plug in another device and things are renumbered then swapping= will write nonsense over a different partition (I was fortunate that, when t= his happened to me, the destroyed partition was one I was planning to delete= anyway). I think I have filed bugs about all of these issues. It would be great if fo= lks looking to improve the installer could consider some of them. David > On 17 Jun 2025, at 16:17, Joseph Mingrone wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFYesterday at the Kitchener-Waterloo hackathon, we spent a few hou= rs > reviewing the FreeBSD installer and identifying areas for improvement. > We've documented our observations and suggestions on the wiki: >=20 > https://wiki.freebsd.org/ImproveInstaller >=20 > Feedback and contributions are welcome. >=20 > Joe > From nobody Tue Jun 17 17:17:26 2025 X-Original-To: hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bMD8S6hFxz5VdgV for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 17:17:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-yw1-x1134.google.com (mail-yw1-x1134.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1134]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bMD8S5rrzz3F9C for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 17:17:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-yw1-x1134.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-70f94fe1e40so75309687b3.1 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 10:17:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; t=1750180659; x=1750785459; darn=freebsd.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=AM6RH9deHougPmkJsTplCTKO8VIVkEy0X23Gxz/ty9I=; b=KkzN/13crKEUO8zR8D035mUEMV+QDbcdS/lNy6ErqI4DeWIwKQV17Gq+sKRfYXY7Z1 Ru/Jdorhn9eZ5E9LRv1ETbJypYnf5EO5sA5pRS8ckVsDJ0IPSQ2G9V7ZkaKSLQzw8Cxm bd7W5ZyH7v/0poZSnLYO2EMu95xjxFXi3GIf8fqVnqEGNzdIwpm1nH9UGzsTJqFG+BRc bVDveRGy9EB2CGCwn5evU5jgjkB598+rmpjQdlcFV0imEpdZUa+75Ho1VYBZNpHvWBDP KCunNHFdu8+Qfla961YWNVS94HJpHXkabVYahXzWFy76nuLAPUYT/etaDcfs5nD9cXlY /gtA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1750180659; x=1750785459; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=AM6RH9deHougPmkJsTplCTKO8VIVkEy0X23Gxz/ty9I=; b=jJJ3+mjVJW8RgK1j7SuroT+LWTiUoF6wLPhW9YrrWvuucUyQfrNuV8eZF1TFJfjQon GJ+7UUn30VRXOf6dQwo/TslvMVuuRk5XrtN+uXPB4oI/YfREMAb3FtsdrK0lEKxPQHrX gVc/EmBJjL9s7BjmiqVuyokcYRt2GAKxLze3/eo4955En+W2Ugpcb1Y2s5gGGzTgnK1t imd1Y1WGHng5f8A1GXZo09fTK2e5x+958yKZzlx7PD8RyhjxwX5PuXGuleucvsHs739E Y9tIssfJnkPes9I+xSxspkQkYHUMgv2/ujN1W7K8e9iguaaKINS7+6XitU6OyZd12GA9 Ejzg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yx8iL9ghn6ZSGHTr30iXBUkWm9WGOaeONhP0dM/DNBPLfgowaXu iMbRpPIkpU4L2BMCLtgjZXuBkS74oO9mV+xYNRR2Oo5Xcy0SH4RDBEskGf7zdgOkMg== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGnct47dVHjmnJZ3gmqS+KRhFZJdU/4Zn5TU4HPb5cnSzMuCjyhWCJMFNDiazyBkI ac4A9pu6Z6zcQ4XReKHO7R9oO9pzcEpMRT/qPzeEKZgSHMwq9xCGnRSSpQlqg/mLP7c5/U9Ae4u Wp9L2ZjlWmWg5brrOpX/xJALSzYHI+Ytkjal10/aoryhPCtyIZ5lZg5f98vQ8iHD5rB9n/NfK4I Ur45RRfLAzxPC6Sh47ssH+rDDFkj+EqVwSfk4aPWFGKw/FwEx3gET1VDDx5MXbA4JMkhWToql34 P289z8Ap3cDDNOaP2yO+sfuw8CvUMJEfunsCIyrTNiHRWlEx4nrqjnNXcVBjirfb9FO07786zP/ vYKw9Jrk+i4JeRmp/CZsEkrCgOtAQEuSyJQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFAzQDbNKnS04x4Le2mbyKCd+UEX+1QrpkLJwfjJLsETj/lTan23UL2P3Q0aEz5IIrUoWW+Hg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:1a:b0:710:e5ae:a61 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-7117493df8cmr204444137b3.14.1750180658859; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 10:17:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw1-f172.google.com (mail-yw1-f172.google.com. [209.85.128.172]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 00721157ae682-7119f0b2ba9sm6024797b3.38.2025.06.17.10.17.38 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 17 Jun 2025 10:17:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw1-f172.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-70f94fe1e40so75309367b3.1; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 10:17:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:4d89:b0:70e:2daa:65b7 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-711a58b7c8fmr51349847b3.12.1750180657641; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 10:17:37 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8634byieib.fsf@asn.ftfl.ca> In-Reply-To: <8634byieib.fsf@asn.ftfl.ca> From: Tomek CEDRO Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2025 19:17:26 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFvC2YxyLDv1tbk4eprX9XD6k3NtJhVGU6KYROeqFbGgEVH0qXDEIO-uXZA Message-ID: Subject: Re: Notes on improving the installer To: Joseph Mingrone Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bMD8S5rrzz3F9C X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] On Tue, Jun 17, 2025 at 5:18=E2=80=AFPM Joseph Mingrone w= rote: > Yesterday at the Kitchener-Waterloo hackathon, we spent a few hours > reviewing the FreeBSD installer and identifying areas for improvement. > We've documented our observations and suggestions on the wiki: > https://wiki.freebsd.org/ImproveInstaller > Feedback and contributions are welcome. > Joe Hey Joe! Its totally unfriendly to (side)install FreeBSD on a drive with existing operating systems everything needs to be done by hand in that case while this is probably most common scenario for new users :-) I reported this on bugzilla as feature request some time ago.. should I add note on wiki too? :-) https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D241296 Thanks :-) Tomek --=20 CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From nobody Tue Jun 17 17:48:35 2025 X-Original-To: hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bMDr735Hxz5VgLd for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 17:48:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@portsmon.org) Received: from MTA-08-4.privateemail.com (mta-08-4.privateemail.com [198.54.122.147]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bMDr71DHRz3W10; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 17:48:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@portsmon.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from mta-08.privateemail.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mta-08.privateemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bMDr52nf1z3hhVZ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 13:48:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from APP-02 (unknown [10.50.14.152]) by mta-08.privateemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 13:48:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2025 12:48:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Linimon To: Tomek CEDRO , Joseph Mingrone Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <378485616.288261.1750182515245@privateemail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <8634byieib.fsf@asn.ftfl.ca> Subject: Re: Notes on improving the installer List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.6-Rev78 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bMDr71DHRz3W10 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:22612, ipnet:198.54.122.0/24, country:US] > should I add note on wiki too? :-) I plan to xref the Bugzilla PRs into the wiki page in a bit. mcl From nobody Tue Jun 17 17:49:44 2025 X-Original-To: hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bMDsm501lz5VfnV for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 17:50:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-yw1-x112e.google.com (mail-yw1-x112e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::112e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bMDsm2qygz3WyW for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 17:50:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-yw1-x112e.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-70f862dbeaeso60501307b3.1 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 10:50:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; t=1750182598; x=1750787398; darn=freebsd.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=lIrDYb2KuMBb4RQD2HEh0Q1e7vKQy1HPSBmAEhh4gQA=; b=grB+KOOCPYqCxVCoZLXAdmeWuCF0BG51HGw9PXEX8FP8vUNaaDJ8ppgzMF8WQPvZqy /UwC6VM6TaQdV3eGVF/KKqQW4pVF7fZEW+Pndxdtl7Grw1Np8N22iu2368mBm/CcCzxL H7rnBgOQGXykVsJLTbQroW5MAEDN16Tf1192b6Mu4yJrS8nl34OCOHBjnnmbJpRsYtgj md+5LwTil44auG1DFoCn8zR6/k8VkvDIC5P4LwzSuYUw+HzsMlNnsYYT9N/bK/GgrTBC HIa1VJ/JgFsAP6F3aECT4/6KYFe7FO9VS9KGM/HRtIrBxTDOn64kJBRuGo3cCgfIoDZO mCwA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1750182598; x=1750787398; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=lIrDYb2KuMBb4RQD2HEh0Q1e7vKQy1HPSBmAEhh4gQA=; b=MpQkw3ddlNoRO8zcOINhltK5T+KjSQEu8OPGUKEtZd/SdR8oApH3Kj3QVZa9MC/Jv2 hefElBDvuzvJWbzBFY/0UopH2feFCDZ8djWuZZpSKcAm4arKQA1BCZG7M3+wqHeQiuOO uvXoIuZJun5Z/bvB7f6L15kGqH5WxiaTzT3m+Y+ldM0OQN5tVeColyecRmgHZ9+8bU+5 oykA/JXZsQF1g+f5jACouaAcODUy/VOsTwSOLGRmUXtoW+7I4YGC4VQ1CsfjiunhSeyG vKLat2opjKY2R5cMv4bU9mLLRkCXnISFiCkhqLbN7zh1A2q3BE2n0Gaa68fxLUHBaSPl P3Gw== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCXdQKG1r4RGJBPjBaN+423ofEDMSlYel53n9JkMYM4+ybvNIyihzfMRLOz4VL6d3TMWEub/sBUx@freebsd.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwHx2KnEQF/2KOW6bWGecWrjqvCozZTAVF4h1Yh9hspPWcgUIBw Lwce3mGCT+Lwb+ucdFz+6sAw++SM/vGUIuRq6yZKkJIJS1r0+qyCVVv9YQVqkhZQ7Q== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGnctAoFG7hQXuBZZiI/nIrGTxDZ91pn0WfQEVqiLC0+oMYsukjAdtqY37xKvrNiO MCkNUQLZP8CSjAVmqA6cY4spH8yntsw1bVYTjC5R7IXBcWR/Sk6ZZjWv/8Wszl4vn3rK2kGcCAa i4duQ2HeNJgzLiiplHA8zujcuej9AHODdcMsHPLQPv0l9ctlhN5YhKdqeoE7C7vjDamocYsRiG0 sVdScIxA8VKDW/ULYdIgmN6IbSSwGWvFFZNe3XOXwK74aIikCnhimJTDaz2RUmWcB/89/PuLCNu 4Ai8BjfCMebRxpD7JYdmGzRYtIEKXnN1snftz9kz5ulZrTbiAS+LVUa+tWWsLGD1TSxPXlxeIXX 63e5pRYk9ac21Ed38LwSgA0+S3Gsv9f9Xlg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IG5aWYfPXPH3FKw5Rkb8qunRhMt7Fqd/O2sy2NKfOjYbrIp4K5ITEqNGWTat20UUIaqz5JCUQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:83:b0:710:e4c4:a938 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-71175463265mr188714977b3.38.1750182598399; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 10:49:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw1-f182.google.com (mail-yw1-f182.google.com. [209.85.128.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 00721157ae682-7118d4e0bb4sm10506547b3.113.2025.06.17.10.49.57 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 17 Jun 2025 10:49:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw1-f182.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-70f862dbeaeso60501087b3.1; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 10:49:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCUOAyFheUR5b67EnlBDEBGzXU9OR3RbGj054O1eZ5XN3CJcPQS54XOh5hVTxaZAmAEVRmGn@freebsd.org, AJvYcCX8GdiHqMy/wViXQOuLc32HERmBt4rHlxjNwy4Ugh+tvaBZGOuqJqqm7RuOQzHimiUB8OFmExpw@freebsd.org X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:670a:b0:70e:1771:c165 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-71175440978mr199453937b3.29.1750182597456; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 10:49:57 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8634byieib.fsf@asn.ftfl.ca> <378485616.288261.1750182515245@privateemail.com> In-Reply-To: <378485616.288261.1750182515245@privateemail.com> From: Tomek CEDRO Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2025 19:49:44 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFsOnCjOM7Vok5dgZqduBl2kQcRWYWPGOXKFZ5Eiy9W4DdQyADGxy3KB39Q Message-ID: Subject: Re: Notes on improving the installer To: Mark Linimon Cc: Tomek CEDRO , Joseph Mingrone , hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bMDsm2qygz3WyW X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] On Tue, Jun 17, 2025 at 7:48=E2=80=AFPM Mark Linimon = wrote: > > should I add note on wiki too? :-) > I plan to xref the Bugzilla PRs into the wiki page in a bit. > mcl TANK U SIR =3D) --=20 CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From nobody Tue Jun 17 18:37:17 2025 X-Original-To: hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bMFwM3zDPz5VmrH for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 18:37:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrm@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bMFwL6nmFz3bGg; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 18:37:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrm@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1750185443; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=lwnL9AqrJEJ/ysg29PtDpu3q/fr5zpn7NmwL1OfP3xo=; b=EL3P9wxvhf8vzaixD5FlSnIhVG3MdY2dWoGgd+iF+SX0BeIE0RzeRe/38T9jnJfSGqqwUg GNP7YEhO1ilrJSSzbTCEpKzhieKZdjkQuruj6jbrMZhQIVotyOEDDN2gU+PIArE9CGv5mf HMiNZ9khR8IuYAHnlflm8whGAiSU3TY87Mt+0Da+s0N6wz06Dx9nea8/MDOczsRjdEYxQ0 hqDt0XzdZFVpFDxX2FKz1+j5rxK7jxHJsk6hBstwyaMUhPhPvBF0uBjDi6Jpjh9QWNZf8h SfqCYuK6m3UcDG/nL/WnJOhzEA/XDaZil+TmmZQHIzFwbFYvtZIbWzz0ZX9lzw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1750185442; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=lwnL9AqrJEJ/ysg29PtDpu3q/fr5zpn7NmwL1OfP3xo=; b=baRXfz16REMSE/73fzpPL9vo4cHr18cyDY5uvfArQAXHK9Nt8kBxh4Anz90XQfGK+ttW65 33ETaqCShP98URKmYN246J8YTraOz3Iyx49iI7+uY0+42UZofsg1qWXjgfTnxDERz/xcBj 9Xmi2kCiOOC/p0B8rfqBOvOJHMeeoLWr9C7ulLElguGmdvTOdtAPiTob8ysmkpU80RU+dB bznlraFSrCxMzrkKQ9ZLC2qpNXDD4Pwg0I5ca6JjcCNyoQy9O52F1ydQYqem2TdZjXg335 nMJfaxtYGyKYZi/jGJtds02BB/qNa9yG+yQbRnyGZElM5ueJXRyCSYqkGVO5fQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1750185443; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=JpDxLxgPyXOJ/OjWlPK4lHecmdF3VbvRDUuCzs44tJIcueYSzt0k0pBUTQHinjt0BjIpAR JKO4HGxHOX1SIys85PBQ8WGaEgiYNqa1mpXTPRvXvv/IWXuJajTnMQi4nCKLWBztPSTM4M WJ6TdOaHkX+xhZ0LQxF0ac/dHvVgNSyvnktCJ4qawrqOzu6w7CP6kQ5QRCI4uetrWrtA44 df4WCxCcZIa+Km/TNfZtxaLDb3/fZn5HBWl44zBw6/DI9gD5f0/lnhNditQUeqlcgJ9XpD qzEkHGqV2FiRfHY8towRb8wyGqmvjU0E8KQnbvFURLK3MigGrLoPhKIikLVbEw== Received: from asn.ftfl.ca.ftfl.ca (unknown [208.72.125.4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: jrm/mail) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4bMFwL55bQz6rW; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 18:37:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jrm@freebsd.org) From: Joseph Mingrone To: Tomek CEDRO Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Notes on improving the installer In-Reply-To: References: <8634byieib.fsf@asn.ftfl.ca> Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2025 14:37:17 -0400 Message-ID: <86zfe6qko2.fsf@asn.ftfl.ca> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/31.0.50 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 2025-06-17 at 19:17, Tomek CEDRO wrote: > On Tue, Jun 17, 2025 at 5:18=E2=80=AFPM Joseph Mingrone = wrote: >> Yesterday at the Kitchener-Waterloo hackathon, we spent a few hours >> reviewing the FreeBSD installer and identifying areas for improvement. >> We've documented our observations and suggestions on the wiki: >> https://wiki.freebsd.org/ImproveInstaller >> Feedback and contributions are welcome. >> Joe > Hey Joe! Its totally unfriendly to (side)install FreeBSD on a drive > with existing operating systems everything needs to be done by hand in > that case while this is probably most common scenario for new users > :-) > I reported this on bugzilla as feature request some time ago.. should > I add note on wiki too? :-) > https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D241296 > Thanks :-) > Tomek Hi Tomek, Yes, if you're up for adding your and David's thoughts to the wiki page that would be helpful. There is a GSoC project that /could/ solve some of these problems if that work could be integrated into the installer. 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Message-ID: <20250617221134.616f464f@rimwks.local> In-Reply-To: <7ced7b14-0508-42f0-b432-0c609a6245a7@gmail.com> References: <7344B44E-0AED-44CA-903D-B8DFC2D56311@gmail.com> <20250617013743.3b5108f0@rimwks.local> <7ced7b14-0508-42f0-b432-0c609a6245a7@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 4.3.0 (GTK 3.24.49; amd64-portbld-freebsd14.3) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bMGgz1Gvpz3vrl X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] On Tue, 17 Jun 2025 08:12:45 +0200 Paul Floyd wrote: > That said, there's a lot more to safety and security than just the > code. Rewriting millions of code of unsafe C that has been hardened > by decades of work to plaster over the CVEs is just going to lead to > a rash of new exploits and crashes. > Safety is a modern bull shit ideology. Most cryticall things have recovery procedures, so no matter crash or exploit will happen. For real safety we have a guns and other real world things. 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[209.85.128.179]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 3f1490d57ef6-e820e3160acsm3770349276.43.2025.06.17.12.44.15 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 17 Jun 2025 12:44:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw1-f179.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-711d4689084so10489737b3.0; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 12:44:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:4a0c:b0:70e:73ae:76a5 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-7117544b8c4mr212112617b3.24.1750189454650; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 12:44:14 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8634byieib.fsf@asn.ftfl.ca> <86zfe6qko2.fsf@asn.ftfl.ca> In-Reply-To: <86zfe6qko2.fsf@asn.ftfl.ca> From: Tomek CEDRO Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2025 21:44:03 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFterzbIJaFTWlLrRde1vaMMS0YCWnYadEj37DaA7c62lZCzRm4Znun4h9o Message-ID: Subject: Re: Notes on improving the installer To: Joseph Mingrone Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bMHPd6JN6z3HSt X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] On Tue, Jun 17, 2025 at 8:37=E2=80=AFPM Joseph Mingrone w= rote: > > On Tue, 2025-06-17 at 19:17, Tomek CEDRO wrote: > > > On Tue, Jun 17, 2025 at 5:18=E2=80=AFPM Joseph Mingrone wrote: > >> Yesterday at the Kitchener-Waterloo hackathon, we spent a few hours > >> reviewing the FreeBSD installer and identifying areas for improvement. > >> We've documented our observations and suggestions on the wiki: > >> https://wiki.freebsd.org/ImproveInstaller > >> Feedback and contributions are welcome. > >> Joe > > > Hey Joe! Its totally unfriendly to (side)install FreeBSD on a drive > > with existing operating systems everything needs to be done by hand in > > that case while this is probably most common scenario for new users > > :-) > > > I reported this on bugzilla as feature request some time ago.. should > > I add note on wiki too? :-) > > > https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D241296 > > > Thanks :-) > > Tomek > > Hi Tomek, > > Yes, if you're up for adding your and David's thoughts to the wiki page > that would be helpful. > > There is a GSoC project that /could/ solve some of these problems if > that work could be integrated into the installer. > > Joe Notes added thanks :-) -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From nobody Tue Jun 17 20:19:12 2025 X-Original-To: hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bMJ9h3ysjz5pjWv for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 20:19:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wjw@digiware.nl) Received: from mail.digiware.nl (smtp.digiware.nl [IPv6:2001:4cb8:90:ffff::3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bMJ9h0HTpz3fQ1; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 20:19:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wjw@digiware.nl) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from [IPV6:2001:4cb8:3:1:cc9c:c6b1:4d11:355f] (unknown [IPv6:2001:4cb8:3:1:cc9c:c6b1:4d11:355f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange x25519 server-signature ECDSA (prime256v1) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail.digiware.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 244CA80071; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 22:18:51 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=digiware.nl; s=medusa-2017; t=1750191531; bh=rttrFopUIqulv3q6dyAX7W/Teec+EmAraRoRoKn0TsE=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=mCg4JMAMqO07Wysg4mCqJkUuA5TxUa0+I9/qPsIW6HJUQYO6njZX+e48hhHsOatRw YteHTlEQDXmLN2WD0BsWA6lE6HqfCgT1gX+yKbMvkQXmhW+VvyL1clymS/ZErmUHe0 T4bnvHx0TBiClL/OCUkwvJUpSj+dnTs0iVeRmJZSXk77+UkroEpfMJ0vHgVXJNn+HA AZK6lGe+TQ2lccAr8gGPnSrWRX7KDvRizNfv97r2aHOB0Ryci69FfKLHq3DUogrU7L uGnf86MYrCK0i/NCnChqLjYfWP50MoaIXY6u0YB8g5cOaBP08otXDEsKtyydizwQ/A KD9DtR+EQtX4g== Message-ID: <775a3d24-6c21-4dcf-9657-5a3e89f6ab6d@digiware.nl> Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2025 22:19:12 +0200 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: Notes on improving the installer To: David Chisnall , Joseph Mingrone Cc: hackers@freebsd.org References: <8634byieib.fsf@asn.ftfl.ca> <69D0FE56-6D3E-4B49-9AD0-68752172FDC6@freebsd.org> Content-Language: nl From: Willem Jan Withagen In-Reply-To: <69D0FE56-6D3E-4B49-9AD0-68752172FDC6@freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Server: router10G.digiware.nl X-Rspamd-Action: no action X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bMJ9h0HTpz3fQ1 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:39700, ipnet:2001:4cb8:90::/48, country:NL] On 17-6-2025 18:50, David Chisnall wrote: > I recently used the installer for the first time in ages (most of my FreeBSD installs have been around for many years) and was quite surprised that there is absolutely no support for non-trivial ZFS installs. If you want to partition the disks yourself and then use ZFS, you have to: > > - Drop to the console. > - Manually create the partitions. > - Manually create each dataset (the list of the ones you need from the wiki is stale). > > I would expect to be able to create the partitions in the partitions GUI, tell the installer the kind of ZFS pool to create (mirror, strip, RAID-Z[2]), and then have it create all of the datasets for the install. It took me four attempts to get this right (well, rightish. I missed a dataset and needed to create it and shuffle files around later). Long time since, but once I got so fed up with this typical problem. That I did create a patch that allows to actually size the first boot partition that BSD-install creates. That allows you to do all the other partitions after the install. I did submit the patch through bugzilla. Maybe it is still there. But like I said, quite some time since. Perhaps I can still dig it up someware. What I remember is that hackking at BSD-install is not the most enjoyable things. --WjW > Ideally, if you are partitioning multiple disks. It would be nice if there were some way of saying ‘this partition map on all disks please’. Creating the same partition layout on every disk in a RAID set is tedious. > > On top of this, there is no support (in the installer or, as far as I can tell, in freebsd-upgrade or pkgbase) for putting a UEFI partition on *each* disk and keeping them all up to date. It’s not so useful having a RAID-Z or strip set if the bootloader isn’t mirrored (can gmirror manage this transparently?). > > If you enable encrypted swap in the installer, it creates fstab entries that create the GELI devices. It does not label the partitions (swap0, swap1, or something useful) but uses the raw device nodes. Nothing in the system appears to check the underlying partition type when enabling swap on these devices, so if you plug in another device and things are renumbered then swapping will write nonsense over a different partition (I was fortunate that, when this happened to me, the destroyed partition was one I was planning to delete anyway). > > I think I have filed bugs about all of these issues. It would be great if folks looking to improve the installer could consider some of them. > > David > >> On 17 Jun 2025, at 16:17, Joseph Mingrone wrote: >> >> Yesterday at the Kitchener-Waterloo hackathon, we spent a few hours >> reviewing the FreeBSD installer and identifying areas for improvement. >> We've documented our observations and suggestions on the wiki: >> >> https://wiki.freebsd.org/ImproveInstaller >> >> Feedback and contributions are welcome. >> >> Joe >> From nobody Tue Jun 17 20:22:26 2025 X-Original-To: hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bMJFK3VGMz5pjfP for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 20:22:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wjw@digiware.nl) Received: from mail.digiware.nl (smtp.digiware.nl [176.74.240.9]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bMJFK05wCz3jDT; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 20:22:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wjw@digiware.nl) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from [IPV6:2001:4cb8:3:1:cc9c:c6b1:4d11:355f] (unknown [IPv6:2001:4cb8:3:1:cc9c:c6b1:4d11:355f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange x25519 server-signature ECDSA (prime256v1) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail.digiware.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A2CB95FF7C; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 22:22:05 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=digiware.nl; s=medusa-2017; t=1750191725; bh=xN/Q5iZ/BPM7+FeZYjpXIedHxAo0JcG3fTWETaqFfKY=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=NxvYtCnzV6A+4Z0K8NBQpwZyHkKSRvzMbmMg1prw82wJwKKBoAUngdQmFuWrHEtNO 2C9IFw8Ebn5e39vRiy1KT3THJCKn7CvkcOSVwGEy9anS/8sKvbiA/wJ+HIEE+YZGYv Y4BISZH6TPdDCkvFFEN96BhZxZ2vZhuoaNhz1mYuV1qSezJrpEC1glISzK5mi2nDPt /n0SWYpuB60tddUah06EqfrKacVdl5qKjrJ8UjUy+Hk2i+usKuiEBCMMFce57Li50r qrD/72lnDeHOvP09zLvjptpA8TXpx1GBRAZt+EC5GMewioaeWo3uT+nEfixXsVT2aS wWWThNk72ks1w== Message-ID: <13699776-a1a0-48ee-be1f-2f4e03912dc7@digiware.nl> Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2025 22:22:26 +0200 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: Notes on improving the installer To: David Chisnall , Joseph Mingrone Cc: hackers@freebsd.org References: <8634byieib.fsf@asn.ftfl.ca> <69D0FE56-6D3E-4B49-9AD0-68752172FDC6@freebsd.org> Content-Language: nl From: Willem Jan Withagen In-Reply-To: <69D0FE56-6D3E-4B49-9AD0-68752172FDC6@freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Server: router10G.digiware.nl X-Rspamd-Action: no action X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bMJFK05wCz3jDT X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:28878, ipnet:176.74.224.0/19, country:NL] On 17-6-2025 18:50, David Chisnall wrote: > I recently used the installer for the first time in ages (most of my FreeBSD installs have been around for many years) and was quite surprised that there is absolutely no support for non-trivial ZFS installs. If you want to partition the disks yourself and then use ZFS, you have to: > > - Drop to the console. > - Manually create the partitions. > - Manually create each dataset (the list of the ones you need from the wiki is stale). > > I would expect to be able to create the partitions in the partitions GUI, tell the installer the kind of ZFS pool to create (mirror, strip, RAID-Z[2]), and then have it create all of the datasets for the install. It took me four attempts to get this right (well, rightish. I missed a dataset and needed to create it and shuffle files around later). So check for     https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=242983 to be able to set at least the first ZFS zroot partition. --WjW > Ideally, if you are partitioning multiple disks. It would be nice if there were some way of saying ‘this partition map on all disks please’. Creating the same partition layout on every disk in a RAID set is tedious. > > On top of this, there is no support (in the installer or, as far as I can tell, in freebsd-upgrade or pkgbase) for putting a UEFI partition on *each* disk and keeping them all up to date. It’s not so useful having a RAID-Z or strip set if the bootloader isn’t mirrored (can gmirror manage this transparently?). > > If you enable encrypted swap in the installer, it creates fstab entries that create the GELI devices. It does not label the partitions (swap0, swap1, or something useful) but uses the raw device nodes. Nothing in the system appears to check the underlying partition type when enabling swap on these devices, so if you plug in another device and things are renumbered then swapping will write nonsense over a different partition (I was fortunate that, when this happened to me, the destroyed partition was one I was planning to delete anyway). > > I think I have filed bugs about all of these issues. It would be great if folks looking to improve the installer could consider some of them. > > David > >> On 17 Jun 2025, at 16:17, Joseph Mingrone wrote: >> >> Yesterday at the Kitchener-Waterloo hackathon, we spent a few hours >> reviewing the FreeBSD installer and identifying areas for improvement. >> We've documented our observations and suggestions on the wiki: >> >> https://wiki.freebsd.org/ImproveInstaller >> >> Feedback and contributions are welcome. >> >> Joe >> From nobody Tue Jun 17 20:41:12 2025 X-Original-To: hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bMJgW2SFKz5plBW for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 20:41:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-pg1-x536.google.com (mail-pg1-x536.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::536]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bMJgW0D09z3tdg for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 20:41:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-pg1-x536.google.com with SMTP id 41be03b00d2f7-af6a315b491so5671688a12.1 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 13:41:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1750192884; x=1750797684; darn=freebsd.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=EvsVQhOES0lcV2y4vqrUWWoDNfN0EZeAGQp/jUK0N/o=; b=htcnZRes0kQFyBVsEjgx345g3ZJSaTGkRs2zVGBbvUJQ+pHDvsoEKC89yiqVWqc1YD Dft5B2SXpi9rsJSSJhaCZFBOrk/6t2QKUNulF0MJiq7ZfZBnlxQ3Z4MGj+GoMeIQ9UEN d+Y88YKPIvMfu+G3HMxTdxWGPm9KpGp8PeaysoDgBvzt8sIzyBw9funvNJvBCxIwItY+ H0Lfhjy/pfxJFN2w/8DlhLFxiIIUjjaWQYon68F98Q1akNirtKLAn/1Q1eBiV4pPFXCw EIN+RbB7O1vC1I9b5rtWmuvnCgXLbdSIt8gsJHGbQ1cRrtEGE+O7RhpzwOIVgxTc4Iq/ oFrw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1750192884; x=1750797684; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=EvsVQhOES0lcV2y4vqrUWWoDNfN0EZeAGQp/jUK0N/o=; b=fHHIK0PBbm8vDVpyve2ysFnNIb06wyr6udn8EWpw6HB0g8uY1mbbVCOZ5O6dSIJX4Q 92SNoHz97trf0Pa2Kf1uAqKKvFmGnAStAn8WW52F8L1TEYrUzELE8p3XCoYunvHXKqki sN+X2B6/xGf8zDqTZzNXB0Fse6EnmhbFK7+CwGC02zx8oXeWVdEbxU8Hbes/w8Igo60p 0ip7tjbCFkAAz6sP+mrj5awqoi9BVhRmDnmQj5fI7IzqiybKX7pDBQIvgUQSsP1HANK/ iyH74IDRa1vLV69YqoAS4ataBbrkrOPC/qVyD0lfPOS6KlwcyhuYmS4Ya9jUWrGT/CpF RvNA== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCWZFT3/YOJ2jhNPGd70SVXRT/Kc8YKKlqsXbvNOs1rd0guz8BOXJOLtZvsulIWBI2yweDn9rpkA@freebsd.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yx9S+rfAPZqRzNkYwIqjiPqghZySjrnqCzb+Zz6GcsOk1qaLk+7 BRlNwIVtRpe0aCKUwhuRy+Io1RNjgBVYhaJ2noKBX86x0L8/C0i0dDvQbbMsotUqt2CbbE1E2cX lmINhgBV6PSZgLs+j+rwzDSIhV6gqDqZLTXdiysmsVw== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncvr8w+PUaJZ12FUmxucHGqP4gI0uhMxZIqQaSop832eDGxrqnEwFnhEMweH9r1 e/J4jIo/CftVe5jcn64vXE4UaX7TJjDaObJD3qJoDsGTnBVc2Wy6YJN5GjeybkAM25Xf6s24fYH oC62qQA6r5X3Ezw0Dk10xEOhz16mnbLsUtLuLmjTen8vI0W7YMbS/TsA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEHgNOn3GT7aeFNkP5iGzkGuy3gVX6Vlq8MJzegE9gmIkkNNNNrxm1N3ncZ4hRp+Ir+cy+FSoh0q2YCz4q6+y0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a20:d049:b0:1f5:8a1d:3904 with SMTP id adf61e73a8af0-21fbd459503mr24373760637.7.1750192883819; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 13:41:23 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8634byieib.fsf@asn.ftfl.ca> <69D0FE56-6D3E-4B49-9AD0-68752172FDC6@freebsd.org> <13699776-a1a0-48ee-be1f-2f4e03912dc7@digiware.nl> In-Reply-To: <13699776-a1a0-48ee-be1f-2f4e03912dc7@digiware.nl> From: Warner Losh Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2025 14:41:12 -0600 X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFsaBLv68MkLlDG-lHztkrvXrR8qWeFdFCC5I4bSkajXUx2BUTeWNjt9CUQ Message-ID: Subject: Re: Notes on improving the installer To: Willem Jan Withagen Cc: David Chisnall , Joseph Mingrone , hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bMJgW0D09z3tdg X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] We've had this https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D262770 for a while now. There's also https://reviews.freebsd.org/D42150 which is a good starting point, but IIRC there were a few nits that needed defuzzing. Warner On Tue, Jun 17, 2025 at 2:22=E2=80=AFPM Willem Jan Withagen wrote: > > On 17-6-2025 18:50, David Chisnall wrote: > > I recently used the installer for the first time in ages (most of my Fr= eeBSD installs have been around for many years) and was quite surprised tha= t there is absolutely no support for non-trivial ZFS installs. If you want = to partition the disks yourself and then use ZFS, you have to: > > > > - Drop to the console. > > - Manually create the partitions. > > - Manually create each dataset (the list of the ones you need from th= e wiki is stale). > > > > I would expect to be able to create the partitions in the partitions GU= I, tell the installer the kind of ZFS pool to create (mirror, strip, RAID-Z= [2]), and then have it create all of the datasets for the install. It took = me four attempts to get this right (well, rightish. I missed a dataset and = needed to create it and shuffle files around later). > So check for > https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D242983 > to be able to set at least the first ZFS zroot partition. > > --WjW > > > Ideally, if you are partitioning multiple disks. It would be nice if th= ere were some way of saying =E2=80=98this partition map on all disks please= =E2=80=99. Creating the same partition layout on every disk in a RAID set i= s tedious. > > > > On top of this, there is no support (in the installer or, as far as I c= an tell, in freebsd-upgrade or pkgbase) for putting a UEFI partition on *ea= ch* disk and keeping them all up to date. It=E2=80=99s not so useful having= a RAID-Z or strip set if the bootloader isn=E2=80=99t mirrored (can gmirro= r manage this transparently?). > > > > If you enable encrypted swap in the installer, it creates fstab entries= that create the GELI devices. It does not label the partitions (swap0, swa= p1, or something useful) but uses the raw device nodes. Nothing in the syst= em appears to check the underlying partition type when enabling swap on the= se devices, so if you plug in another device and things are renumbered then= swapping will write nonsense over a different partition (I was fortunate t= hat, when this happened to me, the destroyed partition was one I was planni= ng to delete anyway). > > > > I think I have filed bugs about all of these issues. It would be great = if folks looking to improve the installer could consider some of them. > > > > David > > > >> On 17 Jun 2025, at 16:17, Joseph Mingrone wrote: > >> > >> =EF=BB=BFYesterday at the Kitchener-Waterloo hackathon, we spent a few= hours > >> reviewing the FreeBSD installer and identifying areas for improvement. > >> We've documented our observations and suggestions on the wiki: > >> > >> https://wiki.freebsd.org/ImproveInstaller > >> > >> Feedback and contributions are welcome. > >> > >> Joe > >> > > From nobody Tue Jun 17 20:43:12 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bMJjs5RhYz5plD5 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 20:43:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from paulf2718@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wm1-x332.google.com (mail-wm1-x332.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::332]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bMJjs0hXjz3w3n for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 20:43:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from paulf2718@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=lGkEOoS2; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of paulf2718@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::332 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=paulf2718@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com Received: by mail-wm1-x332.google.com with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-450cfb6a794so37138195e9.1 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 13:43:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1750193002; x=1750797802; darn=freebsd.org; h=message-id:in-reply-to:to:references:date:subject:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=DIUF4ylyWX98brO5oQkc58OMz7YWX7lmY/gZHbb+D/4=; b=lGkEOoS2r/n0p7jSItHTcT0Or7Hz9+BMKSCKqSCX0h6oQCDIcx1jyo1yhmkoYeeoL+ g46XxG20iVdy6+oJsIbs6BQ/QykbVFyPxZgrrJpq1BlxEBLN3cqFo5aeAtY2F3f3WcjS 8DW6v89y92S64qaZEbz4SeKjKP8+BC2fIqISHScjy04y7DzTNxvbLpRtN/Gmc93zvCXR E7xjoLrZTgiTsHDoJN3BFgdTvLM/rrJmkKqskyJ8Ywir/vd1BntJrUnslI/izdl/tdO4 8BeLxW5DBK/PXlMgQnTAvA/y8PQ1kApPFXL0R7drGEyj9VGyftrzOc7Epbv3GW1LjX7v +4fg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1750193002; x=1750797802; h=message-id:in-reply-to:to:references:date:subject:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=DIUF4ylyWX98brO5oQkc58OMz7YWX7lmY/gZHbb+D/4=; b=Kzn7h3kJ60Pt6LG4U36DPcJgLUQ0181qLuGTnGFLPCowPll4zKC1h8Up+zAjnUrmG8 4ukcQAjlRsOAvd3ljAMPE021Hj+7Hljum05tlTwUi5hWpxurLQW64PRfYNdCbY3m/Ey2 xXULzNkCwA606x99/KuaTSF8sfi6ajpyn4Nln07MMe2HzUD0q1mAhj+7qX7CMxpCRQHT e6MDXAxKKZ+qpNUgAvT11Hltn/n77mWkiVXPp/UH3IIcHSJrp02+ptWUH+Lj+JfI3Wtr 7qEmMsgHctst5MwR+MU5RQL66iw0WQ57PwmtX/GHAb01Hj/dLFRSEF2+9qlMRuFLl4zq k6Jw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yy/YRNmL0XxA+qN3Ka5knrVqXV+ZfPGNPtbNlMOSXuWNMAFD+Sp B4mENUxjkplVyVYYSkrB3ulDXSqFZuftVGBB/fNJzv6auUfEzsvLUGsFC3blow== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGnculDq4UCF6QWpvODsfKWSj9VIpjoaDuAnzZyRFtmblyys/Cw7ERLj7Qgt9jB0y xoaokIt3CHSEXyU76C6aIsd71R88qfgUkJeAhS+0afqWJZeb7QrDTslYYbsuilpJLfdfO8LC3xr pdHLqxR4Xcl17ZQ/wkqbC5YUzxDN5WiRmBBBCaAKZI68ZdCF75fnHZ7jVdpelDrkAaCvoa9nzZx 8bcGL/vsr/Pmi4c2Kj1O7KKcRYErSuQtvxC2bSY2PQGQqufKyncJfd2GSONevBzeMAqQqkEx5hT 2691mCIyMAooZcNfEy6ST385VdFsnxI4667XBY4mgWweYgWDCYBZtm6pq4agAb12Lx/Y9fwgmrc FcZBKplqJdalkmtL9aHAI67Zi X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGJXu7121SySjOYbbSdgfFmyCZrd5q2rTkD09C9eYZS7H4oooMAwp0xEB5PqJjWCVZJyOiySg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:3e0f:b0:442:d9f2:ded8 with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-4533ca6e93fmr161261125e9.15.1750193002290; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 13:43:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple ([2a01:cb15:8545:7700:acb7:c5cc:5c7c:c26d]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ffacd0b85a97d-3a568b79f45sm14908859f8f.101.2025.06.17.13.43.21 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 17 Jun 2025 13:43:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Paul Floyd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3731.700.6.1.11\)) Subject: Re: [Thought experiment] Bringing swift into an experimental branch? Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2025 22:43:12 +0200 References: <7344B44E-0AED-44CA-903D-B8DFC2D56311@gmail.com> <20250617013743.3b5108f0@rimwks.local> <7ced7b14-0508-42f0-b432-0c609a6245a7@gmail.com> <20250617221134.616f464f@rimwks.local> To: Freebsd hackers list In-Reply-To: <20250617221134.616f464f@rimwks.local> Message-Id: <1A6E4DCB-20C0-42D7-B06F-8427D49BD6BA@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.700.6.1.11) X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.49 / 15.00]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.98)[0.977]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.81)[0.811]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.20)[0.201]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20230601]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::332:from]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bMJjs0hXjz3w3n X-Spamd-Bar: ++ > On 17 Jun 2025, at 21:11, Rozhuk Ivan wrote: >>=20 >=20 > Safety is a modern bull shit ideology. Oh for the good old days when you could sell all manner of deathtraps = without all that pesky regulation. > Most cryticall things have recovery procedures, so no matter crash or = exploit will happen. Critical applications like health, aerospace, automotive, railways and = industrial control usually go to great lengths to avoid crashes. They have their own standards that have to be met. I do wonder what insurance companies will make of it all. Will they be = willing to insure safety critical products built using memory unsafe = software? > For real safety we have a guns and other real world things. If the local nuclear reactor goes into meltdown because of yet another C = buffer overrun you=E2=80=99re going to shoot it to protect yourself? A+ Paul From nobody Tue Jun 17 21:49:57 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bMLBv6QP4z5pnXt for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 21:50:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-pg1-x536.google.com (mail-pg1-x536.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::536]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bMLBv3xQxz3LBJ for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 21:50:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-pg1-x536.google.com with SMTP id 41be03b00d2f7-b2c4331c50eso4981556a12.3 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 14:50:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1750197008; x=1750801808; darn=freebsd.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=g5MLB1nlkNH7tpPiBAoqkYxH1M8ZxdRWUEhDsrX8urw=; b=lojrjx334lGvUe3nJa4DiTSLxcSNcdSfhJL17lvssMmcrNbkBXC4i2mwd7L55HP33+ IcOkKuKOk49ha9lHRrROJTK3xKRw4/XG4qHbMT8BxSIYbpzLeSrofxBgGctPl5mTe3+u 5Frm3YNjqzYp1BtRdAI7X2+4gMfYU0aPvqFrJzOf+au3e6P08XknNGPWhWOhhAAxxHkn 4M0RNqfSJ2t/lh/bdICqHBh03r6EskOICKdxF1loPsKiw17JGgehNs2Qb10hnTdMU7Su qHe89W8iWL5FIZRjrKgXt/XzXI4dRDt93kQYigyA5pMwbADUhBKh73huXKeQzxXtH463 5e9Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1750197008; x=1750801808; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=g5MLB1nlkNH7tpPiBAoqkYxH1M8ZxdRWUEhDsrX8urw=; b=W2uGMea/gcZK/lB4BWpME/xMJz9kBvknMmkS/QZ93i1ppMQ9YsU/Y54GjyTMLCtp85 QNJUnORKrbGw1ZQR2LdkjdhQemVxd2hqFN+EaPQ4x7MEpJQ4Yd59axzHmm3h1GxgflJ/ Qqy/Sy130W+y+yttHNvuy7DIizc6NkcKDRZlcsOroONMYwgzLvqeIvhYzY5c7P1u1Z3J EVNPxLdhkYlsYoenyOmzyIv/B7RheBgII4Rn4duX10pueMCC8I2IK3lVu47/7k15403L trYsf3zNLxlZPpNl3fLQWnGZIuLyaPbd0uWTDUOldM7Su7jeLpHq5dyTJULa72q+Zai0 2QsA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzxxlXrxK/gzwQK5aSnU2x2M24ngYCMPuxr6n1EFYctVHPfnjfW dKiBviseDDW5Zn2J4GQb+qz9FZNztiAzD3InpJRGWY0nje6u7I2WgoFUgDWnsD5baAZ/jfgF8wO I8vO9arGuEeH8/+oQZGjE2g8c5uGzzzmrmdSUFcEapF4HMJORZgGS32eGHQ== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGnctxE8yl04wtj/K+arFAoIoduEkvISLw4xz8v1j1KuCO8jASIbGhK1rpcfpOrgx mZG5r/wOhjx5eO6D8XIIglzihSdSdaf5z5oY171D/jjheGPliDnWIeAwmi7UOMcL6e+iZE7mgwE SzDNHX+ZLkgZ7WQjXwX/IG5LnjsaDRXqAqdHfaaH8ZFWg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFj5lrFgLhK2FW7NnG1rfbXjQGl010nHd1qdkgGXrNqO4sAOsqqEGjino7+ZHH1tZ5/g2tyQVm698WEN13Oc7w= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:6c89:b0:748:e1e4:71ec with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-748e1e477e3mr2331860b3a.12.1750197008189; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 14:50:08 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9c7f2953-2fb3-4c36-977c-41aa7fd55c5c@delphij.net> <009e52a1-4d6f-42b6-905f-53fbf1c69065@denninger.net> In-Reply-To: <009e52a1-4d6f-42b6-905f-53fbf1c69065@denninger.net> From: Warner Losh Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2025 15:49:57 -0600 X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFt48OvCb7fr4QvoS_uYi3TPmIqpWB3HTCl8YPnbctIvVLEj4obb7yCBx1I Message-ID: Subject: Re: An idea for the EFI (LUA) loader.... To: Karl Denninger Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bMLBv3xQxz3LBJ X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] On Tue, Jun 17, 2025 at 4:19=E2=80=AFAM Karl Denninger = wrote: > > > On 6/17/2025 02:47, Xin Li wrote: > > On 2025-06-16 18:05, Karl Denninger wrote: > > The problem is that it wants something like "rootdev=3Ddisk0s1a" -- a ful= l specification. > > > If ZFS is an option, you can say something like: > > rootdev=3Dzfs:mydevice-boot/ROOT/default: > currdev=3Dzfs:mydevice-boot/ROOT/default: > > in EFI's FreeBSD/loader.env; ZFS have much better way to find out the rig= ht device and does not rely on probe order. > > But it isn't. > > This is an "sort-of-embedded" environment. The goal is "one media that b= oots them all, provided we have the drivers for your network card and its a= n AMD compatible CPU." > > Thus it has to boot in something like a pcEngines apu2 (which has no idea= what EFI is, and won't boot a GPT USB stick either) and also be able to be= stuck into something like a GMKTek "cube PC" which has no CSM mode (EFI bo= ot only.) I'll live with the constraint that any other media in or connect= ed to it (e.g. on a USB interface, etc) either can't be bootable OR you hav= e set the boot order in the BIOS so the stick that's plugged in is the firs= t to be considered. > > I build these using "nanobsd" so they're power-fail safe and the capabili= ty to pull the stick in the event of a hardware failure, shove it into some= thing else and with a de-minimus set of edits (e.g. "what are the ethernet = interfaces called") if different (e.g. igb .vs. ix) it will come up and run= . > > Think edge gateway/firewall appliance. > > I tend to stick these images out where anyone can grab and use them with = a decent set of software included (e.g. Strongswan, etc.); I used to build = them for the pcEngines internal sd card slot which came up as "mmcsd0" but = those guys are gone, they're not fast enough to saturate a full gigabit con= nection anyway and, as it turns out, basically everything today when it boo= ts FreeBSD identifies a USB stick as a "da" device, so if its the only stor= age device on USB it will come up as "da0" which works nicely (and quite co= nsistently) once the kernel is loaded. The goal is "one image that will bo= ot and run on most, from old and crusty to new and shiny." > > The key element that drives the request is that nanobsd allows online upd= ating -- that is, there are two system partitions and you can update the on= e that isn't running with a "dd" and then reboot to activate it. I resolve= d the issue of losing the data partition in the nanobsd build if you have E= FI as an option but that leaves me with this which I've not been successful= sorting out reliably with the tools available. So we don't care about MBR in EFI-land. Sure, it kinda works, but this has been a problem for years and nobody has fixed it. We have code that will figure it out based on a number of heuristics for GPT disks no problem. Millions of people use it. We don't have similar code for MBR, so you have to do your rootdev=3Ddisk3s3a: hacks. One thing we need to do is fix that, I think. This would help us find the root partition better, which would obviate the need for this silly hack (though when there's two partitions we're ping-ponging between, we're back to needing a better solution). There's also some patches somewhere (Phab or github) that adds label:foo: as a disk that's valid for a partition labelled foo. Not sure if it handles MBR + BSDLABEL or not though. It could expand for that too, I guess. So that would be one way to do it. making rootdev=3Ds1a: is hard. But a variation on the label idea we could have something like rootdev=3Defi:s1a: and that would expand to 'the volume you loaded the boot loader from, slice 1, bsdlabel partition a.' It's possible to write that code, at least, though I don't have that in my pocket. https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D149803 has a really old patch that could be updated. That bit of parsing code changed a bit, so some tweaking likely is needed. I just never got around to looking at it since I didn't have a fire burning under my !@#%# to motivate me. The other issue you haven't mentioned is that the BIOS picks some random disks sometimes to boot off of and the BIOS disk enumeration code isn't 100% standardized so sometimes the right answer is disk4s1a for reasons that are mysterious.... Warner From nobody Tue Jun 17 22:17:01 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bMLp8138Kz5pr0n for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 22:17:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from delphij@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pg1-x534.google.com (mail-pg1-x534.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::534]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bMLp75Njxz3bq2 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 22:17:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from delphij@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-pg1-x534.google.com with SMTP id 41be03b00d2f7-b31bca0a32bso827741a12.2 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 15:17:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1750198633; x=1750803433; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=tUr0xFwke5jOeIZYKnIYGj7hm41qFRXkyi1NPuAs+1U=; b=UyKFIZ3rrX/HgF0Kqtt4pVKRH6RAlYkxP3Eb0Byv5YuGTlpGQcj14ljSpJm3MKALts k/KqpjdMtEFNPTDEu1UXFGOPew+2KL4Z7w9NsQDp2srjrXC1bxCyGyMwqqjw/YRc0/gZ N2NcgGk08VAUjLhDYaKLvvw5jTlNsWYZh4TcECzqrRX4fHD1bd/KVtWosEv4xHNNp06L 2nILjsnp5KKqrj1ADcDU8EAWSrnSvU1jZ944ldsfknEPSoXdwgoxQQvECSrLgDZHOm0x 89zf6yT1zop6MXe4y9d0lPm2WNyhs03kuMX5iNbqcOVK84rxwT+gb04fp2D0SsQhPuM+ ll+w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1750198633; x=1750803433; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=tUr0xFwke5jOeIZYKnIYGj7hm41qFRXkyi1NPuAs+1U=; b=UC8ddrq5FZ3EHMZhtScNJGSCOmNHAenN18whOvsw/BGkNjVMVshpeU/lmhAOGIg41u FU8snnFoCzqZsA1pIFXuy/Yghe3S2vFTgfN+15MlJv5h3B0hTDVOywD5tnwzRevknixm zusrrxo5vtc4bLqDDi1L9ubPvGV3zYUzB4rv9H0ZldE6eBRxaKtXlBiIg6tS4flMV1Ju sUnqGzP/dGDILuJY0oLlNbujHC66uA31MXnDlgt5eDjaKHvgrpx4brL66bg/rR69AC+4 meVzAdQZZA9XMAfMYZs5I1iVAUJ1M+tS5Z2jQCT75H4nlig6VM2M5GlCko60IJGFUO+7 cP5Q== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCXQ1+PoUnFPV2ti0HaW+9aY87Dz5418hrHwQ34OxWzgPW9IFMHC2xb71GeOG+sv6eZ0ZUqbFQwmD0xtQjdpE5k=@freebsd.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxXZFhkhk2JBak3yXfA7CdpQaacEcro+SDHDOYHcYFX9C+GrrHe vcOyKqPcYa2/Bcj0qmxvozZgMsGsTITDeK8hrL+3iWyNLYtv4Re4XRDeDSv55HHKS+a3DcNpkt7 WDiXX7UqcbBG+XK45uF/UnDV/iGYFqPZb5i4I X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncsFfmlSw3QCBN5jqUNuNgrJwtwxoedRizUo7mFwhhZl/rl+yFLfhcQ5+0vkOsl /RqltxVPiX9e/RAot8fjLbc9JfJR4N8WU2bgsZ+VyvIAACc+7CQOL4+o8y21S2GE8uInyypIApK zj9xn7a242cJBuA9g0ptSiLhovs6VubuEClkQCSSySkXpD6L3KfGcCVedl58eROocvyOoelH3Nq g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IF8md8boPkrQmphk6oxLKWR7sKxaVJiFQppJTebgDVuOi4OktC20D61xTX7R/Vz4zZpqYPdTFkAnHcpcrcpqWc= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:1f8d:b0:312:db8:dbdd with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-313f1ce3cbbmr21655985a91.28.1750198633185; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 15:17:13 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9c7f2953-2fb3-4c36-977c-41aa7fd55c5c@delphij.net> <009e52a1-4d6f-42b6-905f-53fbf1c69065@denninger.net> In-Reply-To: From: Xin LI Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2025 15:17:01 -0700 X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFseSRoT3Sjdzk3p7puxO7kNX7MGcHGJLNehZSvdyV5q8VOGdYxlw3mBUyI Message-ID: Subject: Re: An idea for the EFI (LUA) loader.... To: Warner Losh Cc: Karl Denninger , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d147ca0637cbdff8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bMLp75Njxz3bq2 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] --000000000000d147ca0637cbdff8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jun 17, 2025 at 2:51=E2=80=AFPM Warner Losh wrote: > There's also some patches somewhere (Phab or github) that adds > label:foo: as a disk that's valid for a partition labelled foo. Not > That's good to hear, I think you are referring to https://reviews.freebsd.org/D49355 . > sure if it handles MBR + BSDLABEL or not though. It could expand for > Not in the current version, but supporting the GPT label is still a great improvement IMO... > that too, I guess. So that would be one way to do it. > Cheers, --000000000000d147ca0637cbdff8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue, Jun 1= 7, 2025 at 2:51=E2=80=AFPM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
There's also some patches somewhere (Phab or github) th= at adds
label:foo: as a disk that's valid for a partition labelled foo. Not
=

That's good to hear, I think you are refer= ring to https://reviews.free= bsd.org/D49355 .
=C2=A0
sure if it handles MBR + BSDLABEL or not though. It could expand for

Not in the current version, but supporting the G= PT label is still a great improvement=C2=A0IMO...
=C2=A0
that too, I guess. So that would be one way to do it.
=
Cheers,
--000000000000d147ca0637cbdff8-- From nobody Wed Jun 18 00:05:34 2025 X-Original-To: hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bMPC90pmNz5pxdy for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2025 00:05:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@portsmon.org) Received: from MTA-07-3.privateemail.com (mta-07-3.privateemail.com [198.54.118.214]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bMPC842GVz3gxB; Wed, 18 Jun 2025 00:05:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@portsmon.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from mta-07.privateemail.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mta-07.privateemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bMPC534B6z3hhVQ; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 20:05:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from APP-02 (unknown [10.50.14.152]) by mta-07.privateemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Tue, 17 Jun 2025 20:05:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2025 19:05:34 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Linimon To: Willem Jan Withagen , David Chisnall , Joseph Mingrone Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <1915578406.315953.1750205134283@privateemail.com> In-Reply-To: <775a3d24-6c21-4dcf-9657-5a3e89f6ab6d@digiware.nl> References: <8634byieib.fsf@asn.ftfl.ca> <69D0FE56-6D3E-4B49-9AD0-68752172FDC6@freebsd.org> <775a3d24-6c21-4dcf-9657-5a3e89f6ab6d@digiware.nl> Subject: Re: Notes on improving the installer List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.6-Rev78 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bMPC842GVz3gxB X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:22612, ipnet:198.54.118.0/24, country:US] > On 06/17/2025 3:19 PM CDT Willem Jan Withagen wrote: > I did submit the patch through bugzilla. Maybe it is still there. Perhaps https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=242983 ? I recently rebased the patch, so it shows up in the "recently modified" list. mcl From nobody Wed Jun 18 08:13:18 2025 X-Original-To: hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bMc1d3s8wz5yQp6 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2025 08:13:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wjw@digiware.nl) Received: from mail.digiware.nl (smtp.digiware.nl [IPv6:2001:4cb8:90:ffff::3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bMc1d1hHDz3bWT; Wed, 18 Jun 2025 08:13:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wjw@digiware.nl) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from [IPV6:2001:4cb8:3:1:e94c:6c62:20fb:b1b2] (unknown [IPv6:2001:4cb8:3:1:e94c:6c62:20fb:b1b2]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange x25519 server-signature ECDSA (prime256v1) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail.digiware.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5602D80840; Wed, 18 Jun 2025 10:12:57 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=digiware.nl; s=medusa-2017; t=1750234377; bh=KcmNyWlj0mQRmhRE5pSc4Wb7lABcC3LeLlLY0NSrEzc=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=omxBuRghWOF5WtSE50mYmPz0lUJpJ2cA+IHDwyeNhJMcs4yMfI9OHHuEBF3KfH+G2 TOAbZ6/xQ2eVcQ+vBpq+hNljWjxBqzbZoMnfCjK7zk37T8MNMGTTGwRBexdW7oLayr KMH73g0awckbHuXrVrKieQKO5puEUGm+KaledHPHl1j7RXJRdfIJDqK0XenC3yQhPN a3rPKSU1xQtkEQGI4ABIvMMtLJ5AVub/3fLFnbcZtdB4AC0XNyGasiHPveGb7FpIBs FUr1PV85wuPoNI5YONr/ivYMD68pNkTXvwWUvmk15SYv/JXV65QCK+CnI3bdNjdVxk ODblrp+Bt2Y/g== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------EmyV0Bg7qFFfI0TSO8hoabCp" Message-ID: <2c5bf9f3-2802-405d-b259-4c98aa7c362b@digiware.nl> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2025 10:13:18 +0200 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: Notes on improving the installer To: Mark Linimon , David Chisnall , Joseph Mingrone Cc: hackers@freebsd.org References: <8634byieib.fsf@asn.ftfl.ca> <69D0FE56-6D3E-4B49-9AD0-68752172FDC6@freebsd.org> <775a3d24-6c21-4dcf-9657-5a3e89f6ab6d@digiware.nl> <1915578406.315953.1750205134283@privateemail.com> Content-Language: nl From: Willem Jan Withagen In-Reply-To: <1915578406.315953.1750205134283@privateemail.com> X-Rspamd-Server: router10G.digiware.nl X-Rspamd-Action: no action X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bMc1d1hHDz3bWT X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:39700, ipnet:2001:4cb8:90::/48, country:NL] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------EmyV0Bg7qFFfI0TSO8hoabCp Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 18-6-2025 02:05, Mark Linimon wrote: >> On 06/17/2025 3:19 PM CDT Willem Jan Withagen wrote: >> I did submit the patch through bugzilla. Maybe it is still there. > Perhapshttps://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=242983 ? > > I recently rebased the patch, so it shows up in the "recently modified" > list. So if you rebased the patch, it is still applicable and working?? Phabricator show it as buildable, but that was when the patch was submitted. Anything I can do here? --WjW --------------EmyV0Bg7qFFfI0TSO8hoabCp Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 18-6-2025 02:05, Mark Linimon wrote:
On 06/17/2025 3:19 PM CDT Willem Jan Withagen <wjw@digiware.nl> wrote:
I did submit the patch through bugzilla. Maybe it is still there.

Perhaps https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=242983 ?

I recently rebased the patch, so it shows up in the "recently modified"
list.
So if you rebased the patch, it is still applicable and working??
Phabricator show it as buildable, but that was when the patch was submitted.

Anything I can do here?

--WjW

--------------EmyV0Bg7qFFfI0TSO8hoabCp-- From nobody Wed Jun 18 15:09:03 2025 X-Original-To: hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bMnFc5p0fz5pkCJ for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2025 15:09:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@portsmon.org) Received: from MTA-11-4.privateemail.com (mta-11-4.privateemail.com [198.54.127.104]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bMnFc3ftPz3TbR; Wed, 18 Jun 2025 15:09:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@portsmon.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from mta-11.privateemail.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mta-11.privateemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bMnFZ3t5Mz3hhWt; Wed, 18 Jun 2025 11:09:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from APP-02 (unknown [10.50.14.152]) by mta-11.privateemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 18 Jun 2025 11:09:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2025 10:09:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Linimon To: Willem Jan Withagen , David Chisnall , Joseph Mingrone Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <764471588.398905.1750259343391@privateemail.com> In-Reply-To: <2c5bf9f3-2802-405d-b259-4c98aa7c362b@digiware.nl> References: <8634byieib.fsf@asn.ftfl.ca> <69D0FE56-6D3E-4B49-9AD0-68752172FDC6@freebsd.org> <775a3d24-6c21-4dcf-9657-5a3e89f6ab6d@digiware.nl> <1915578406.315953.1750205134283@privateemail.com> <2c5bf9f3-2802-405d-b259-4c98aa7c362b@digiware.nl> Subject: Re: Notes on improving the installer List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.6-Rev78 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bMnFc3ftPz3TbR X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:22612, ipnet:198.54.127.0/24, country:US] > So if you rebased the patch, it is still applicable and working?? Applicable yes, tested/working no. I'm just trying to get the patches in Bugzilla to the point where we can handle them via automation. mcl From nobody Wed Jun 18 15:30:32 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bMnkQ31LGz5plbD for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2025 15:30:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jordan.hubbard@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ot1-x32c.google.com (mail-ot1-x32c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bMnkP2gjwz3d34 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2025 15:30:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jordan.hubbard@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b="Jpp/iKd7"; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jordan.hubbard@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::32c as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jordan.hubbard@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com Received: by mail-ot1-x32c.google.com with SMTP id 46e09a7af769-72c14138668so1829452a34.2 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2025 08:30:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1750260635; x=1750865435; darn=freebsd.org; h=mime-version:msip_labels:content-language:accept-language :in-reply-to:references:message-id:date:thread-index:thread-topic :subject:cc:to:from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=mL7svvv8GIpu/FvLJsNrA37k4+TX0QSP19sHk5qn7aw=; b=Jpp/iKd7T1EBzYrdhU675cT05lPlEnhEv7l+ZQ+oVyQv35Sa5Mn/n0REcd9Nnxca/4 b+/wq2VyUxDEkbtseG1w1spvukBktqYFmtYjnBJ54RxaPbHDrk85YVzJQYj+Y/GSk7vJ 50wqBLSdTsaWaNIuf+k3bm3LA3tSz7wfFz8/n5kdGcpmdqhhQCBu/ZK6jg6Lgzkneeqf THqZb31LDeiQfgSOLC55lZ7+uNYeYIDPs+XxIlG3OHpXyq190dtVDZGmx3slfB+CTOEs N+6wlm0OToxkoys2tR2maW0G+G3gykzNBTCUziTVD3cRS/SZx8wDXCvp19Ay7CYi5duJ /PCA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1750260635; x=1750865435; h=mime-version:msip_labels:content-language:accept-language :in-reply-to:references:message-id:date:thread-index:thread-topic :subject:cc:to:from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=mL7svvv8GIpu/FvLJsNrA37k4+TX0QSP19sHk5qn7aw=; b=h01UzuFNO6PZYaf2e0icjFaR0qZBC7HoH9sMGIbu8am54PaLnBVT2UjVpavHvUDlh1 msGM1TbYbtQrnf62Ylj9RvSQxHYxrA/uN2je9e4n7b1aYpRT4N6dn+Mf1hekDN5fBrRw QfHkkllxrc1AY8dQMs28euft3taWoUzPjj9bX+GMSlgT1Yw2eTLoOgJ1uqdlxcROgGGU jBNH4u8Bug7r7R1LLC7AXsS+IMOey23/9dyjDjILkzZTNl2hWh6Cmcxab2C3ffF5f8mo Oh49bGl8oaBeP1M81hpJKZH7Eigz/AlNuW5ckX8wuwZIDagZyBpMdl/2FfGKA8cy0Seu T/2w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyNSuxM+DmPG3GP5JAdaaRGFlSI1s25Ff71LRID6RBOV7clHuwb ipmNJyxhrQ94FHjYujRdSpAa203sVhxKVakhyRtPhBEDGs38yDPcIfZO2khu5A== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncuaq9JNjUuzQNptaLNEWV5PKLoaen4PES81kTfIEg32IhU8r1Rn58sFhEDH3A1 EMZUeSK24GzcHX5gH4fSJSn2vsNM+G/o/46NyiRpVd/DWEX5bB7HLnV8+0DNd1B9MuzgppXzPtn oXbS2nECpI2KoK7u70xEgLo3nlRvkagdmoUgjjvGavPPhhw9qvIl8MQd2GD+qNxH3Qs/2k9lSFb G5Qo0BsDKtjmPhtJigaDcVxb0xV3y2rKOatJXn92z3B65oOS/9B8xN1CYNieXc2Q3AhCfpyG2OP fMl9Z9aBr2vYVzfXnioOCqOiUw27vw/8W+K+1WE/fXNwhpLQxIFLnar4GoG+PAOrl3vncF3kO3l uYNOocDcrrrnrpWKoxIS7flr5eJ7I/NuRV1xFL7O/0h/SUBBZ+VxJJg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHFUQ+TxFKDmKW+JOXCkth6sJtu2PUuo833tpRvTWaEKrWi8buu1iiFyWJaDNIZ2Slzjt5z4Q== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:730c:b0:739:fcb4:db2b with SMTP id 46e09a7af769-73a36274e40mr12817521a34.3.1750260633963; Wed, 18 Jun 2025 08:30:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SA0PR02MB7498.namprd02.prod.outlook.com ([2603:1036:305:3872::5]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 46e09a7af769-73a28535739sm1970974a34.58.2025.06.18.08.30.32 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 18 Jun 2025 08:30:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Jordan Hubbard To: Rozhuk Ivan , Borja Marcos CC: "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: [Thought experiment] Bringing swift into an experimental branch? Thread-Topic: [Thought experiment] Bringing swift into an experimental branch? Thread-Index: ATFDMzRFElGDhc/uwXmeooSkxMvgLjAxLjMxRjNFNEE0OC4xMc/lfcHr X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2025 15:30:32 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7344B44E-0AED-44CA-903D-B8DFC2D56311@gmail.com> <20250617013743.3b5108f0@rimwks.local> <1632F5EA-8DFC-4764-96E4-E2633BA0C2FF@sarenet.es> <20250617151232.76a895f4@rimwks.local> In-Reply-To: <20250617151232.76a895f4@rimwks.local> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-Exchange-Organization-SCL: -1 X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-MS-Exchange-Organization-RecordReviewCfmType: 0 msip_labels: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_SA0PR02MB7498B9C2C90969B2A9279B6CA372ASA0PR02MB7498namp_" List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.01 / 15.00]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.000]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(1.00)[0.998]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.984]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20230601]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com,sarenet.es]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::32c:from]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bMnkP2gjwz3d34 X-Spamd-Bar: + --_000_SA0PR02MB7498B9C2C90969B2A9279B6CA372ASA0PR02MB7498namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Upon reflection, and given Warner's reply, perhaps I asked the wrong questi= on. This idea of "pluggable toolchains" is interesting. If you zoom up and look at *BSD from a purely architectural perspective, yo= u have the kernel + essential base utilities as "ring zero" - everything re= quired to support FreeBSD on anything from a thumb drive on a Raspberry Pi = to a massive server system, or at least that should be the goal. That's yo= ur bootstrap. However, *creating* that ball of bits for X number of targets - that raspb= erry PI or that x86 server system in my example - requires a toolchain. To= day, that toolchain is clang + llvm + binutils + lldb + make etc and so on,= what linux calls the "build-essentials" package. Ignoring whether it can = cross-compile or not for the moment, that's your second piece of the puzzle= and also in "ring zero" since, without it, you can't do anything but admir= e the source code. Mmmm. Source code! Furthermore, since FreeBSD has always been "integrated" and has that lovely= "make world" target, we can assume that a toolchain selection somewhere in= a configuration file will automatically scope over everything in ring zero= . If the end-user / customer decides they need another supported toolchain= , they simply specify it in that configuration file and boom - it's now par= t of ring zero for them - the entire project does not have to commit to any= thing other than making that pluggable toolchain compile with all of its de= pendencies. One can also imagine parts of "base" growing a toolchain_required field. I= f the toolchain they need is not there, they either freak out and stop the = compilation process or they are simply skipped. Ports takes care of everything else. It is still ring 1, though to this da= y I rather wish I had figured out some way of combining all of that into on= e multi-tiered system but meh, that ship has sailed, it's fine. * Jordan ________________________________ From: Rozhuk Ivan Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2025 5:12 AM To: Borja Marcos Cc: Jordan Hubbard ; freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org = Subject: Re: [Thought experiment] Bringing swift into an experimental branc= h? On Tue, 17 Jun 2025 08:02:08 +0200 Borja Marcos wrote: > > On 17 Jun 2025, at 00:37, Rozhuk Ivan wrote: > > > > No modern language required, even C++ is to complex to learn it. > > C just works, like it work 30-40 years ago. > > All can be done on C. > > Well, if counting bytes is your thing, yes, everything can be done in > C. The fact that using a systems programming language for > applications is a bad idea has been proven beyond doubt. ;) > > The problem is language stability as Jordan pointed out. I remember I > said something similar about Rust. > "systems programming language" - does not exist. OS have no complex applications, even assembler can be used, Colibry OS as = example. --_000_SA0PR02MB7498B9C2C90969B2A9279B6CA372ASA0PR02MB7498namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Upon reflection, and given Warner's reply, perhaps I asked the wrong questi= on.

This idea of "pluggable toolchains" is interesting.

If you zoom up and look at *BSD from a purely architectural perspective, yo= u have the kernel + essential base utilities as "ring zero" - eve= rything required to support FreeBSD on anything from a thumb drive on a Ras= pberry Pi to a massive server system, or at least that should be the goal.  That's your bootstrap.

However, *creating* that ball of bits for X number of targets  - that = raspberry PI or that x86 server system in my example - requires a toolchain= .  Today, that toolchain is clang + llvm + binutils + lldb + make etc = and so on, what linux calls the "build-essentials" package.  Ignoring whether it can cross-compile or not for the moment= , that's your second piece of the puzzle and also in "ring zero" = since, without it, you can't do anything but admire the source code.  = Mmmm.  Source code!

Furthermore, since FreeBSD has always been "integrated" and has t= hat lovely "make world" target, we can assume that a toolchain se= lection somewhere in a configuration file will automatically scope over eve= rything in ring zero.  If the end-user / customer decides they need another supported toolchain, they simply specify it = in that configuration file and boom - it's now part of ring zero for them - the entire project does not have to commit to anythi= ng other than making that pluggable toolchain compile with all of its depen= dencies.

One can also imagine parts of "base" growing a toolchain_required= field.  If the toolchain they need is not there, they either freak ou= t and stop the compilation process or they are simply skipped.

Ports takes care of everything else.  It is still ring 1, though to th= is day I rather wish I had figured out some way of combining all of that in= to one multi-tiered system but meh, that ship has sailed, it's fine.

  • Jordan
From: Rozhuk Ivan <rozhu= k.im@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2025 5:12 AM
To: Borja Marcos <borjam@sarenet.es>
Cc: Jordan Hubbard <jordan.hubbard@gmail.com>; freebsd-hackers= @freebsd.org <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: [Thought experiment] Bringing swift into an experimenta= l branch?
 
On Tue, 17 Jun 2025 08:02:08 +0200
Borja Marcos <borjam@sarenet.es> wrote:

> > On 17 Jun 2025, at 00:37, Rozhuk Ivan <rozhuk.im@gmail.com>= wrote:
> >
> > No modern language required, even C++ is to complex to learn it.<= br> > > C just works, like it work 30-40 years ago.
> > All can be done on C. 
>
> Well, if counting bytes is your thing, yes, everything can be done in<= br> > C. The fact that using a systems programming language for
> applications is a bad idea has been proven beyond doubt.  ;)
>
> The problem is language stability as Jordan pointed out. I remember I<= br> > said something similar about Rust.
>

"systems programming language" - does not exist.

OS have no complex applications, even assembler can be used, Colibry OS as = example.
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[209.85.128.169]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 3f1490d57ef6-e841eac3db7sm13073276.56.2025.06.18.14.27.33 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 18 Jun 2025 14:27:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw1-f169.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-710bbd7a9e2so1589817b3.0; Wed, 18 Jun 2025 14:27:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:4:b0:70c:b534:868f with SMTP id 00721157ae682-71175457302mr267955497b3.20.1750282053001; Wed, 18 Jun 2025 14:27:33 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8634byieib.fsf@asn.ftfl.ca> <86zfe6qko2.fsf@asn.ftfl.ca> In-Reply-To: From: Tomek CEDRO Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2025 23:27:21 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFu7nmkMf8pKPUFxIE5RaqB4Q7x4YADbW0FFS7Z7bcl9uu3hczdYk1jv460 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Notes on improving the installer To: Joseph Mingrone Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.21 / 15.00]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.98)[0.983]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.980]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.51)[0.506]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[hackers@freebsd.org]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::b35:from,209.85.128.169:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[hackers@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bMxfN2QgTz49Yr X-Spamd-Bar: / I have also added "Intended Use" section to the wiki, please update/delete as you wish :-) https://wiki.freebsd.org/ImproveInstaller The general idea is to propose a set of tools so user gets a working setup after install, just like popular Linux distros. This step would be optional and advanced users can simply skip it or select "bare metal" to get where we land right now. For instance if a company needs an office box they will select "desktop / office", developers will probably select "desktop / software development", someone who wants to quickly setup www server will select "server / www", etc. I think this may attract new people that want to try out the FeeBSD (i.e. switch from windows), or if we want to install FreeBSD on a family/friend/customer machine quickly. This also may act as kind of simple package manager frontend after install, or this package manager frontend may be a separate application and launched by the installer. Newcomers may need also UI version of the tool which may be the first step here. If you like the idea some brainstorming will be required what sets of useful packages may be proposed to fulfill "intended use cases", how deep should we let users to select packages, will this fit the pkgbase stuff, etc :-) Intended Use * This functionality should allow selecting intended use of the target installed system (i.e. desktop, server, etc) so the workstation is ready to use after install. * This may be used after installation too if someone skips that point during initial install. * This will help first contact users of FreeBSD not to land in shell asking "what do I do now" but have operational workstation. * Easy customization of target use (i.e. here is the installer run it on 100 machines and all will be ready to use by our organization). * Bare Metal: do not install anything additional, I just want the base system. * Desktop: * Xorg or Wayland or Terminal? * Terminal: vim, tmux, mc, wget, curl, links, lynx, mpv, vlc, ocp etc. * Window Manager: KDE, GNOME, XFCE4, Enligthenment, LXQT, etc. * Office: Firefox, ?LibreOffice, VLC, ?AudaCity, etc. * Software development: some GUI IDE, vim, tmux, mc. * Embeded: adruino, arm-toolchain, riscv-toolchain, etc. * Mutimedia: VLC, Audacity, Milkytracker, Soundtacker, MIDI utils, etc. * Games: list of games. * etc. * Server: * WWW: Apache, Nginx, PHP, Python. * File Server: Samba, NFS, etc. * VPN: OpenVPN, Wierguard, etc. Thanks :-) Tomek -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From nobody Thu Jun 19 06:19:53 2025 X-Original-To: hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bN9Sl1Q8Cz5PYt7 for ; 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charset=utf-8 hi,

i am running 14.2 on a DELL PowerEdge R750 with a = mellanox/nvidia 100Gb nic  mlx5en: 

mce0: = flags=3D1008843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST,LOWER_UP> = metric 0 mtu 1500
 
options=3D66ef07bb<RXCSUM,TXCSUM,VLAN_MTU,VLAN_HWTAGGING,JUM= BO_MTU,VLAN_HWCSUM,TSO4,TSO6,LRO,VLAN_HWFILTER,NV,VLAN_HWTSO,LINKSTATE,RXC= SUM_IPV6,TXCSUM_IPV6,HWSTATS,HWRXTSTMP,MEXTPG,VXLAN_HWCSUM,VXLAN_HWTSO>=
       ether = ...
       inet = ... netmask 0xfffffc00 broadcast =E2=80=A6.
       media: Ethernet = 100GBase-KR4 <full-duplex,rxpause,txpause>
       status: = active
       nd6 = options=3D29<PERFORMNUD,IFDISABLED,AUTO_LINKLOCAL>

I=E2=80=99m doing a rsync from an iscsilon mounted via this = mce0, the best max throughput is about 1GBs which = is a bit depressing


but tcpdump -i mce0 = says:
store-09# tcpdump -i mce0 host = <same net as mce0>
tcpdump: verbose output suppressed, = use -v[v]... for full protocol decode
listening on mce0, = link-type EN10MB (Ethernet), snapshot length 262144 bytes
          =                     =               = **********

and shows no = traffic!

any ideas?

thanks,
= danny

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Thu, 19 Jun 2025 03:33:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([2001:9e8:c43a:ad00:7c10:e955:6860:6b68]) by smtp.gmail.com with UTF8SMTPSA id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-608b4ae68a2sm10872927a12.79.2025.06.19.03.33.48 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 19 Jun 2025 03:33:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 12:33:47 +0200 From: Daniel Tameling To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Notes on improving the installer Message-ID: References: <8634byieib.fsf@asn.ftfl.ca> List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <8634byieib.fsf@asn.ftfl.ca> X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.85 / 15.00]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.000]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.95)[0.945]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.90)[0.901]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; 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Since this happened some time ago, I might be misremembering this, but I think that you notice only relatively late in the process if your internet connection isn't working. It might be nice to have a "test whether I can download the necessary stuff" button as early as possible. 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boundary="0000000000008c9b130637eb6c27" --0000000000008c9b130637eb6c27 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 8:20=E2=80=AFAM Daniel Braniss wrote: > hi, > > i am running 14.2 on a DELL PowerEdge R750 with a mellanox/nvidia 100Gb > nic mlx5en: > > mce0: flags=3D1008843 > metric 0 mtu 1500 > > > options=3D66ef07bb > ether ... > inet ... netmask 0xfffffc00 broadcast =E2=80=A6. > media: Ethernet 100GBase-KR4 > status: active > nd6 options=3D29 > > I=E2=80=99m doing a rsync from an iscsilon mounted via this mce0, the bes= t max > throughput is about 1GBs which is a bit depressing > > Regarding this 1GB/s (8Gb/s) it is how I get on my side with a very simple netcat transfert. By simple transfert, I mean using one TCP flow with a single process netcat= : On the receiver host: nc -l 12345 > /dev/null On the sender host: dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12345 107374182400 bytes transferred in 77.772515 secs (1380618626 bytes/sec) Which is about 1.3GB/s, so close to your 1GB/s. Let=E2=80=99s dig a little more and one the sender, displaying the stats fo= r each NIC queues. How many queues the drivers configured on my sender system ? # sysctl dev.mce.0.conf.channels dev.mce.0.conf.channels: 40 So 40 queues (match my output of nproc), great. But how many were used during this test: # sysctl dev.mce.0 | awk '/txstat.*\.bytes/ && $NF !=3D 0' dev.mce.0.txstat26tc0.bytes: 74 dev.mce.0.txstat20tc0.bytes: 120 dev.mce.0.txstat4tc0.bytes: 112564632016 dev.mce.0.txstat0tc0.bytes: 60 =3D> Only one queue (the number 4 in my example) is used. And it is the same problem on the receiver: One queue/one core Let=E2=80=99s improving this by running 8 parallels nc at the same time, bu= t we need to use 8 different TCP sessions to let RSS selecting 8 differents queues: On the receiver host: nc -l 12341 > /dev/null & nc -l 12342 > /dev/null & nc -l 12343 > /dev/null & nc -l 12344 > /dev/null & nc -l 12345 > /dev/null & nc -l 12346 > /dev/null & nc -l 12347 > /dev/null & nc -l 12348 > /dev/null On the sender host: dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12341 & dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12342 & dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12343 & dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12344 & dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12345 & dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12346 & dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12347 & dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12348 Then we need to add the output from all those dd: 107374182400 bytes transferred in 103.937552 secs (1033064374 bytes/sec) 107374182400 bytes transferred in 104.474689 secs (1027753071 bytes/sec) 107374182400 bytes transferred in 104.939627 secs (1023199578 bytes/sec) 107374182400 bytes transferred in 105.002306 secs (1022588806 bytes/sec) 107374182400 bytes transferred in 105.674894 secs (1016080345 bytes/sec) 107374182400 bytes transferred in 105.687319 secs (1015960885 bytes/sec) 107374182400 bytes transferred in 106.480994 secs (1008388239 bytes/sec) 107374182400 bytes transferred in 106.837954 secs (1005019084 bytes/sec) To have a total of 8152054382 bytes/sec (8.15 GBytes/s or 65Gb/s). You can check the stats per queue, and you will notice that 8 of them should have been used. So you need to use a multi-threaded/parallel rsync equivalent (on both sides) to fill your link. but tcpdump -i mce0 says: > store-09# tcpdump -i mce0 host > tcpdump: verbose output suppressed, use -v[v]... for full protocol decode > listening on mce0, link-type EN10MB (Ethernet), snapshot length 262144 > bytes > ********** > > Don=E2=80=99t worry about the libpcap definition, from contrib/libpcap/pcap= /dlt.h : #define DLT_NULL 0 /* BSD loopback encapsulation */ #define DLT_EN10MB 1 /* Ethernet (10Mb) */ #define DLT_EN3MB 2 /* Experimental Ethernet (3Mb) */ #define DLT_AX25 3 /* Amateur Radio AX.25 */ #define DLT_PRONET 4 /* Proteon ProNET Token Ring */ #define DLT_CHAOS 5 /* Chaos */ #define DLT_IEEE802 6 /* 802.5 Token Ring */ #define DLT_ARCNET 7 /* ARCNET, with BSD-style header */ #define DLT_SLIP 8 /* Serial Line IP */ #define DLT_PPP 9 /* Point-to-point Protocol */ #define DLT_FDDI 10 /* FDDI */ So the EN10MB is simply the term used for "Ethernet". Regards, Olivier --0000000000008c9b130637eb6c27 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On = Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 8:20=E2=80=AFAM Daniel Braniss <danny@cs.huji.ac.il> wrote:
hi,

i am running 14.2 on a DELL PowerEdge R75= 0 with a mellanox/nvidia 100Gb nic =C2=A0mlx5en:=C2=A0

=
mce0: flags=3D1008843<UP,BROADCAST= ,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST,LOWER_UP> metric 0 mtu 1500
=C2=A0
<= div> options=3D66ef07bb<RXCSUM,TXCSUM,VLAN_MTU,VLAN_HWTAGGING,JUMBO_MT= U,VLAN_HWCSUM,TSO4,TSO6,LRO,VLAN_HWFILTER,NV,VLAN_HWTSO,LINKSTATE,RXCSUM_IP= V6,TXCSUM_IPV6,HWSTATS,HWRXTSTMP,MEXTPG,VXLAN_HWCSUM,VXLAN_HWTSO>=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0ether ...
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0inet ... netmask 0xfffffc= 00 broadcast=C2=A0=E2=80=A6.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0me= dia: Ethernet 100GBase-KR4 <full-duplex,rxpause,txpause>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0status: active
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0nd6 options=3D29<PERFORMNUD,IFDISABLED,AUTO_LINKLOCAL>

I=E2=80=99m doing a rsync from an iscsilon mounted via t= his mce0, the best=C2=A0max = throughput is about 1GBs which is a bit depressing


Regarding this 1GB/s (8Gb/s)= it is how I get on my side with a very simple netcat transfert.
By simple transfert, I mean using one TCP flow with a single process n= etcat:

On the receiver host:
nc -l 12345 > /dev/null
On the sender host:
dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12345
107374182400 bytes transferred in 77.772515 secs (1380618626 bytes/sec)=

Which is about 1.3GB/s, so close to you= r 1GB/s.

Let=E2=80=99s dig a little more= and one the sender, displaying the stats for each NIC queues.
How many queues the drivers configured on my sender system ?
# sysctl dev.mce.0.conf.channels
dev.mce.0.conf.channels: 40
So 40 queues (match my output of nproc), great.
But = how many were used during this test:
# sysctl dev.mce.0 | aw= k '/txstat.*\.bytes/ && $NF !=3D 0'
dev.mce.0.txstat26tc= 0.bytes: 74
dev.mce.0.txstat20tc0.bytes: 120
dev.mce.0.txstat4tc0.byt= es: 112564632016
dev.mce.0.txstat0tc0.bytes: 60

=3D> Only one queue (the number 4 in my example) is used.
And it is the same problem on the receiver: One queue/one core<= /div>

Let=E2=80=99s improving this by running = 8 parallels nc at the same time, but we need to use 8 different TCP session= s to let RSS selecting 8 differents queues:
On the receiver = host:
nc -l 12341 > /dev/null &
nc -l 12342 > /= dev/null &
nc -l 12343 > /dev/null &
nc -l 12344 > /dev= /null &
nc -l 12345 > /dev/null &
nc -l 12346 > /dev/nu= ll &
nc -l 12347 > /dev/null &
nc -l 12348 > /dev/null<= br>
On the sender host:
dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.= 1.1.30 12341 &
dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 1= 2342 &
dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12343 &am= p;
dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12344 &
dd= if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12345 &
dd if=3D/d= ev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12346 &
dd if=3D/dev/zero = bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12347 &
dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G = count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12348

Then we = need to add the output from all those dd:
107374182400 bytes= transferred in 103.937552 secs (1033064374 bytes/sec)
107374182400 byte= s transferred in 104.474689 secs (1027753071 bytes/sec)
107374182400 byt= es transferred in 104.939627 secs (1023199578 bytes/sec)
107374182400 by= tes transferred in 105.002306 secs (1022588806 bytes/sec)
107374182400 b= ytes transferred in 105.674894 secs (1016080345 bytes/sec)
107374182400 = bytes transferred in 105.687319 secs (1015960885 bytes/sec)
107374182400= bytes transferred in 106.480994 secs (1008388239 bytes/sec)
10737418240= 0 bytes transferred in 106.837954 secs (1005019084 bytes/sec)
To have a total of=C2=A08152054382 bytes/sec (8.15 GB= ytes/s or 65Gb/s).
You can check the stats per queue, and yo= u will notice that 8 of them should have been used.
So you n= eed to use a multi-threaded/parallel rsync equivalent (on both sides) to fi= ll your link.


but tcpdump -i mce0 say= s:
store-09# tcpdump -i m= ce0 host <same net as mce0>
tcpdump: verbose output suppressed, use -v[v].= .. for full protocol decode
listening on mce0, link-type EN10MB (Ethernet), snap= shot length 262144 bytes
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 **********


Don=E2=80=99t worry about the= libpcap definition, from contrib/libpcap/pcap/dlt.h :
#defi= ne DLT_NULL =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A00 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /* BSD loopba= ck encapsulation */
#define DLT_EN10MB =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 /* Ethernet (10Mb) */
#define DLT_EN3MB =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = 2 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /* Experimental Ethernet (3Mb) */
#define DLT_AX2= 5 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A03 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /* Amateur Radio AX.25 = */
#define DLT_PRONET =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /* Prot= eon ProNET Token Ring */
#define DLT_CHAOS =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 5 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /* Chaos */
#define DLT_IEEE802 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 6 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /* 802.5 Token Ring */
#define DLT_ARCNET =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A07 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /* ARCNET, with BSD-style header */
#define= DLT_SLIP =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A08 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /* Serial Line = IP */
#define DLT_PPP =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 9 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= /* Point-to-point Protocol */
#define DLT_FDDI =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A010 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0/* FDDI */

So = the EN10MB is simply the term used for "Ethernet".

Regards,
Olivier
--0000000000008c9b130637eb6c27-- From nobody Thu Jun 19 13:12:51 2025 X-Original-To: hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bNLdS2h8Qz5ygDF for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2025 13:13:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from danny@cs.huji.ac.il) Received: from kabab.cs.huji.ac.il (kabab.cs.huji.ac.il [132.65.116.210]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bNLdR2Dw4z3NGG; Thu, 19 Jun 2025 13:13:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from danny@cs.huji.ac.il) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.huji.ac.il; s=57791128; h=References:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:Date:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Message-Id:From; bh=Z1loEmidkQqsUwojBD34OL3hmTo40D7YYf4XJvYkttQ=; b=FZhpYVe2mJSRrAH/G12TyTqFAAVDDik+tzpZxvTliot5BHpMFkRo0wZhquoF7Wa9nK5X3Mx/fdHUvXGR5RAJuEBoN9/KPuwHxDTto2VskrYg7epAjYEC3yujVYb64why8Mi2QtT8vvSWmcz2IREAPXdzwtI5OY22kYBxRYT1e+TPutyVS4zXIiEGJyaV3njOqsiSrQ9Nqr/tqKgmh3pIlipvybySkv3oi8nDuQhPJ9DLOVpd4WfWfPUMmpG7vP45NVIOz6l+iE8OAxd9NtLgL+uQie54nTdIKoImUK7GFpy8/cGdY/qf6TGH7pLFo6lYkmumb7LrZKJ2uIdw3Ffnlg==; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cse.huji.ac.il; s=57791128; h=References:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:Date:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Message-Id:From; bh=Z1loEmidkQqsUwojBD34OL3hmTo40D7YYf4XJvYkttQ=; b=dOFOfooZrxeljEb7PklF2u1ysLTG8SyQYz1JbqViQ/72syIn74mcGOwTApnu+Y1hvSYVtOSSRfk1r4sT+zgi4zGWf6PjEwN5v1hxemZN0fLwG6f14qPaawr6bsui3k3k4d3Uox2k00CmAvwJVexJvJ8CRWjrqFZgOY6XTtgNUG64i+IJpp3nHnKlPEukCOXS9cLKY0SpZXA7nBXdRSzkJiLfH+AE51jyZmSuEJ5ii/rVrWtgYKVbjG92fKA3KeRVs2qN5VeScNcvRyILtYGzwNg/iC2lnKvCREuRPg1jMf0SVGpm8Erwb8OjyoHZxe+cgSwyMJuiKZylPC1CsAPD9Q==; Received: from imac.bk.cs.huji.ac.il ([132.65.179.42] helo=smtpclient.apple) by kabab.cs.huji.ac.il with esmtp id 1uSF4p-000HJH-HM; Thu, 19 Jun 2025 16:13:11 +0300 From: Daniel Braniss Message-Id: <585AA32B-F679-411F-B472-9E903E70A653@cs.huji.ac.il> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1E0C87ED-FBAC-4052-97EF-D6AAD681E391" List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.600.51.1.1\)) Subject: Re: 100Gb performance Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 16:12:51 +0300 In-Reply-To: Cc: freebsd-hackers To: =?utf-8?Q?Olivier_Cochard-Labb=C3=A9?= References: <69416040-9E55-42E9-9203-FF1706F2A51E@cs.huji.ac.il> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.600.51.1.1) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bNLdR2Dw4z3NGG X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:378, ipnet:132.64.0.0/15, country:IL] --Apple-Mail=_1E0C87ED-FBAC-4052-97EF-D6AAD681E391 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Olivier The problem I have it=E2=80=99s that one end is an iscilon storage, not = much I can do there. We are running several rsyncs in parallel, getting some better = throughput, but nowhere near the 10GB/, actually just barely touching 1GB/s Thanks, Danny > On 19 Jun 2025, at 14:55, Olivier Cochard-Labb=C3=A9 = wrote: >=20 >=20 > On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 8:20=E2=80=AFAM Daniel Braniss = > wrote: >> hi, >>=20 >> i am running 14.2 on a DELL PowerEdge R750 with a mellanox/nvidia = 100Gb nic mlx5en:=20 >>=20 >> mce0: flags=3D1008843 = metric 0 mtu 1500 >> =20 >> = options=3D66ef07bb >> ether ... >> inet ... netmask 0xfffffc00 broadcast =E2=80=A6. >> media: Ethernet 100GBase-KR4 >> status: active >> nd6 options=3D29 >>=20 >> I=E2=80=99m doing a rsync from an iscsilon mounted via this mce0, the = best max throughput is about 1GBs which is a bit depressing >>=20 >=20 > Regarding this 1GB/s (8Gb/s) it is how I get on my side with a very = simple netcat transfert. > By simple transfert, I mean using one TCP flow with a single process = netcat: >=20 > On the receiver host: > nc -l 12345 > /dev/null > On the sender host: > dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12345 > 107374182400 bytes transferred in 77.772515 secs (1380618626 = bytes/sec) >=20 > Which is about 1.3GB/s, so close to your 1GB/s. >=20 > Let=E2=80=99s dig a little more and one the sender, displaying the = stats for each NIC queues. > How many queues the drivers configured on my sender system ? > # sysctl dev.mce.0.conf.channels > dev.mce.0.conf.channels: 40 > So 40 queues (match my output of nproc), great. > But how many were used during this test: > # sysctl dev.mce.0 | awk '/txstat.*\.bytes/ && $NF !=3D 0' > dev.mce.0.txstat26tc0.bytes: 74 > dev.mce.0.txstat20tc0.bytes: 120 > dev.mce.0.txstat4tc0.bytes: 112564632016 > dev.mce.0.txstat0tc0.bytes: 60 >=20 > =3D> Only one queue (the number 4 in my example) is used. > And it is the same problem on the receiver: One queue/one core >=20 > Let=E2=80=99s improving this by running 8 parallels nc at the same = time, but we need to use 8 different TCP sessions to let RSS selecting 8 = differents queues: > On the receiver host: > nc -l 12341 > /dev/null & > nc -l 12342 > /dev/null & > nc -l 12343 > /dev/null & > nc -l 12344 > /dev/null & > nc -l 12345 > /dev/null & > nc -l 12346 > /dev/null & > nc -l 12347 > /dev/null & > nc -l 12348 > /dev/null >=20 > On the sender host: > dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12341 & > dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12342 & > dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12343 & > dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12344 & > dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12345 & > dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12346 & > dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12347 & > dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12348 >=20 > Then we need to add the output from all those dd: > 107374182400 bytes transferred in 103.937552 secs (1033064374 = bytes/sec) > 107374182400 bytes transferred in 104.474689 secs (1027753071 = bytes/sec) > 107374182400 bytes transferred in 104.939627 secs (1023199578 = bytes/sec) > 107374182400 bytes transferred in 105.002306 secs (1022588806 = bytes/sec) > 107374182400 bytes transferred in 105.674894 secs (1016080345 = bytes/sec) > 107374182400 bytes transferred in 105.687319 secs (1015960885 = bytes/sec) > 107374182400 bytes transferred in 106.480994 secs (1008388239 = bytes/sec) > 107374182400 bytes transferred in 106.837954 secs (1005019084 = bytes/sec) >=20 > To have a total of 8152054382 bytes/sec (8.15 GBytes/s or 65Gb/s). > You can check the stats per queue, and you will notice that 8 of them = should have been used. > So you need to use a multi-threaded/parallel rsync equivalent (on both = sides) to fill your link. >=20 >=20 >> but tcpdump -i mce0 says: >> store-09# tcpdump -i mce0 host >> tcpdump: verbose output suppressed, use -v[v]... for full protocol = decode >> listening on mce0, link-type EN10MB (Ethernet), snapshot length = 262144 bytes >> ********** >>=20 >=20 > Don=E2=80=99t worry about the libpcap definition, from = contrib/libpcap/pcap/dlt.h : > #define DLT_NULL 0 /* BSD loopback encapsulation */ > #define DLT_EN10MB 1 /* Ethernet (10Mb) */ > #define DLT_EN3MB 2 /* Experimental Ethernet (3Mb) */ > #define DLT_AX25 3 /* Amateur Radio AX.25 */ > #define DLT_PRONET 4 /* Proteon ProNET Token Ring */ > #define DLT_CHAOS 5 /* Chaos */ > #define DLT_IEEE802 6 /* 802.5 Token Ring */ > #define DLT_ARCNET 7 /* ARCNET, with BSD-style header */ > #define DLT_SLIP 8 /* Serial Line IP */ > #define DLT_PPP 9 /* Point-to-point Protocol */ > #define DLT_FDDI 10 /* FDDI */ >=20 > So the EN10MB is simply the term used for "Ethernet". >=20 > Regards, > Olivier --Apple-Mail=_1E0C87ED-FBAC-4052-97EF-D6AAD681E391 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Olivier
The problem I have it=E2=80=99s that one end is an iscilon = storage, not much I can do there.
We are running several = rsyncs in parallel, getting some better throughput, = but
nowhere near the 10GB/, actually just barely touching = 1GB/s

Thanks,
= Danny

On 19 Jun = 2025, at 14:55, Olivier Cochard-Labb=C3=A9 <olivier@freebsd.org> = wrote:


On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 8:20=E2=80=AFA= M Daniel Braniss <danny@cs.huji.ac.il> = wrote:
hi,

i am running 14.2 on a DELL = PowerEdge R750 with a mellanox/nvidia 100Gb nic =  mlx5en: 

mce0: = flags=3D1008843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST,LOWER_UP> = metric 0 mtu 1500
 
options=3D66ef07bb<RXCSUM,TXCSUM,VLAN_MTU,VLAN_HWTAGGING,JUM= BO_MTU,VLAN_HWCSUM,TSO4,TSO6,LRO,VLAN_HWFILTER,NV,VLAN_HWTSO,LINKSTATE,RXC= SUM_IPV6,TXCSUM_IPV6,HWSTATS,HWRXTSTMP,MEXTPG,VXLAN_HWCSUM,VXLAN_HWTSO>=
       ether ...
       inet = ... netmask 0xfffffc00 broadcast =E2=80=A6.
       media: Ethernet = 100GBase-KR4 <full-duplex,rxpause,txpause>
       status: = active
       nd6 = options=3D29<PERFORMNUD,IFDISABLED,AUTO_LINKLOCAL>
=
I=E2=80=99m doing a = rsync from an iscsilon mounted via this mce0, the = best max throughput is about 1GBs = which is a bit = depressing


Regarding this 1GB/s (8Gb/s) it is = how I get on my side with a very simple netcat transfert.
By simple transfert, I mean using = one TCP flow with a single process netcat:

On the receiver host:
nc -l 12345 > = /dev/null
On the sender = host:
dd if=3D/dev/zero = bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12345
107374182400 bytes transferred in 77.772515 secs (1380618626 = bytes/sec)

Which is about 1.3GB/s, so close to = your 1GB/s.

Let=E2=80=99s dig a little more and = one the sender, displaying the stats for each NIC queues.
How many queues the drivers = configured on my sender system ?
# sysctl dev.mce.0.conf.channels
dev.mce.0.conf.channels: = 40
So 40 queues = (match my output of nproc), great.
But how many were used during this test:
# sysctl dev.mce.0 | awk = '/txstat.*\.bytes/ && $NF !=3D = 0'
dev.mce.0.txstat26tc0.bytes: 74
dev.mce.0.txstat20tc0.bytes: = 120
dev.mce.0.txstat4tc0.bytes: = 112564632016
dev.mce.0.txstat0tc0.bytes: 60

=3D> Only one queue (the number = 4 in my example) is used.
And it is the same problem on the receiver: One queue/one = core

Let=E2=80=99s improving this by = running 8 parallels nc at the same time, but we need to use 8 different = TCP sessions to let RSS selecting 8 differents queues:
On the receiver host:
nc -l 12341 > /dev/null = &
nc -l 12342 > /dev/null &
nc -l 12343 > /dev/null = &
nc -l 12344 > /dev/null &
nc -l 12345 > /dev/null = &
nc -l 12346 > /dev/null &
nc -l 12347 > /dev/null = &
nc -l 12348 > /dev/null

On the sender host:
dd = if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12341 &
dd = if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12342 &
dd = if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12343 &
dd = if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12344 &
dd = if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12345 &
dd = if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12346 &
dd = if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12347 &
dd = if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12348

Then we need to add the output from = all those dd:
107374182400 = bytes transferred in 103.937552 secs (1033064374 = bytes/sec)
107374182400 bytes transferred in 104.474689 secs = (1027753071 bytes/sec)
107374182400 bytes transferred in 104.939627 = secs (1023199578 bytes/sec)
107374182400 bytes transferred in = 105.002306 secs (1022588806 bytes/sec)
107374182400 bytes transferred = in 105.674894 secs (1016080345 bytes/sec)
107374182400 bytes = transferred in 105.687319 secs (1015960885 bytes/sec)
107374182400 = bytes transferred in 106.480994 secs (1008388239 = bytes/sec)
107374182400 bytes transferred in 106.837954 secs = (1005019084 bytes/sec)

To have a total = of 8152054382 bytes/sec (8.15 GBytes/s or 65Gb/s).
You can check the stats per queue, = and you will notice that 8 of them should have been used.
So you need to use a = multi-threaded/parallel rsync equivalent (on both sides) to fill your = link.


but tcpdump -i mce0 = says:
store-09# tcpdump -i mce0 host = <same net as mce0>
tcpdump: = verbose output suppressed, use -v[v]... for full protocol = decode
listening on mce0, = link-type EN10MB (Ethernet), snapshot length 262144 bytes
        =                     =                 **********
<= br>

Don=E2=80=99t worry about the libpcap definition, from = contrib/libpcap/pcap/dlt.h :
#define DLT_NULL        0     =   /* BSD loopback encapsulation */
#define DLT_EN10MB   =    1       /* Ethernet (10Mb) */
#define = DLT_EN3MB       2       /* Experimental = Ethernet (3Mb) */
#define DLT_AX25        3 =       /* Amateur Radio AX.25 */
#define DLT_PRONET =      4       /* Proteon ProNET Token Ring = */
#define DLT_CHAOS       5       /* = Chaos */
#define DLT_IEEE802     6       /* = 802.5 Token Ring */
#define DLT_ARCNET      7   =     /* ARCNET, with BSD-style header */
#define DLT_SLIP =        8       /* Serial Line IP = */
#define DLT_PPP         9       = /* Point-to-point Protocol */
#define DLT_FDDI       =  10      /* FDDI */

So the EN10MB is = simply the term used for "Ethernet".

Regards,
Olivier

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[68.161.195.36]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d75a77b69052e-4a778394f64sm36721cf.0.2025.06.19.07.25.49 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 19 Jun 2025 07:25:49 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-F5C82AE6-FA53-4053-92C6-36CBE8B4B3A4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Mark Saad List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: 100Gb performance Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 10:25:38 -0400 Message-Id: <8EB5CD7B-8DC8-4B95-A90A-A0DF8FD80BB4@longcount.org> References: <585AA32B-F679-411F-B472-9E903E70A653@cs.huji.ac.il> In-Reply-To: <585AA32B-F679-411F-B472-9E903E70A653@cs.huji.ac.il> To: freebsd-hackers X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (22F76) X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.34 / 15.00]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.98)[0.980]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.85)[0.846]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.81)[0.813]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[longcount.org:s=google]; MIME_HTML_ONLY(0.20)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:~]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[longcount.org]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[longcount.org:+]; APPLE_IOS_MAILER_COMMON(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[hackers@freebsd.org]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::833:from]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[hackers@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bNNFH6LSwz3nWV X-Spamd-Bar: ++ --Apple-Mail-F5C82AE6-FA53-4053-92C6-36CBE8B4B3A4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Jun 19, 2025, at 9:14=E2=80=AFAM, Daniel B= raniss <danny@cs.huji.ac.il> wrote:

=EF=BB=BFHi Olivier
The problem I have i= t=E2=80=99s that one end is an iscilon storage, not much I can do there.
We are running several rsyncs in parallel, getting some better throug= hput, but
nowhere near the 10GB/, actually just barely touching 1G= B/s

Thanks,
Dann= y

On 19 Jun 2025, at 14:55, Oli= vier Cochard-Labb=C3=A9 <olivier@freebsd.org> wrote:


= On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 8:20=E2=80=AFAM Daniel Braniss <danny@cs.huji.ac.il> wrote:
hi,
i am running 14.2 on a DELL PowerEdge R750 with a mellanox= /nvidia 100Gb nic  mlx5en: 

mce0: flags=3D1008843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST,LOWER_UP&= gt; metric 0 mtu 1500
 
opt= ions=3D66ef07bb<RXCSUM,TXCSUM,VLAN_MTU,VLAN_HWTAGGING,JUMBO_MTU,VLAN_HWCS= UM,TSO4,TSO6,LRO,VLAN_HWFILTER,NV,VLAN_HWTSO,LINKSTATE,RXCSUM_IPV6,TXCSUM_IP= V6,HWSTATS,HWRXTSTMP,MEXTPG,VXLAN_HWCSUM,VXLAN_HWTSO>
       ether ...
       inet ... netmas= k 0xfffffc00 broadcast =E2=80=A6.
       media: Ethernet 100GBase-K= R4 <full-duplex,rxpause,txpause>
       status: active
       nd6 options=3D= 29<PERFORMNUD,IFDISABLED,AUTO_LINKLOCAL>

I=E2=80=99m doing a rsync from an iscsi= lon mounted via this mce0, the best max t= hroughput is about 1GBs which is a bit depressing


Regarding this 1GB/s (8Gb/s) i= t is how I get on my side with a very simple netcat transfert.
By simple tra= nsfert, I mean using one TCP flow with a single process netcat:

On the r= eceiver host:
nc -l 12345 > /dev/null
On the sender host:
dd if=3D/dev/ze= ro bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12345
107374182400 bytes transferred in= 77.772515 secs (1380618626 bytes/sec)

Which is about 1.3GB/s, so close= to your 1GB/s.

Let=E2=80=99s dig a little more and one the sender, dis= playing the stats for each NIC queues.
How many queues the drivers configure= d on my sender system ?
# sysctl dev.mce.0.conf.channels
dev.mce.0.conf.c= hannels: 40
So 40 queues (match my output of nproc), great.
But how many were u= sed during this test:
# sysctl dev.mce.0 | awk '/txstat.*\.bytes/ &&= $NF !=3D 0'
dev.mce.0.txstat26tc0.bytes: 74
dev.mce.0.txstat20tc0.byt= es: 120
dev.mce.0.txstat4tc0.bytes: 112564632016
dev.mce.0.txstat0tc0.= bytes: 60

=3D> Only one queue (the number 4 in my example) is used.
An= d it is the same problem on the receiver: One queue/one core

Let=E2=80=99= s improving this by running 8 parallels nc at the same time, but we need to u= se 8 different TCP sessions to let RSS selecting 8 differents queues:
<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 1= 4px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter= -spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;= white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; tex= t-decoration: none; font-family: "courier new", monospace;">On the= receiver host:
nc -l 12341 > /dev/null &
nc -l 12342 > /dev/nu= ll &
nc -l 12343 > /dev/null &
nc -l 12344 > /dev/null &= amp;
nc -l 12345 > /dev/null &
nc -l 12346 > /dev/null &=
nc -l 12347 > /dev/null &
nc -l 12348 > /dev/null

On= the sender host:
dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 123= 41 &
dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12342 &<= br>dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12343 &
dd if=3D= /dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12344 &
dd if=3D/dev/zero= bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12345 &
dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G c= ount=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12346 &
dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D10= 0 | nc 1.1.1.30 12347 &
dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.= 1.1.30 12348

Then we need to add the output from all those dd:
107374182400= bytes transferred in 103.937552 secs (1033064374 bytes/sec)
107374182400= bytes transferred in 104.474689 secs (1027753071 bytes/sec)
107374182400= bytes transferred in 104.939627 secs (1023199578 bytes/sec)
107374182400= bytes transferred in 105.002306 secs (1022588806 bytes/sec)
107374182400= bytes transferred in 105.674894 secs (1016080345 bytes/sec)
107374182400= bytes transferred in 105.687319 secs (1015960885 bytes/sec)
107374182400= bytes transferred in 106.480994 secs (1008388239 bytes/sec)
107374182400= bytes transferred in 106.837954 secs (1005019084 bytes/sec)

To have a to= tal of 8152054382 bytes/sec (8.15 GBytes/s or 65Gb/s).
You can check the s= tats per queue, and you will notice that 8 of them should have been used.
So= you need to use a multi-threaded/parallel rsync equivalent (on both sides) t= o fill your link.


but tcpdump -i= mce0 says:
store-09# tcpdump -i mce0 host= <same net as mce0>
tcpdump: ver= bose output suppressed, use -v[v]... for full protocol decode
listening on mce0, link-type EN10MB (Ethernet), snap= shot length 262144 bytes
&n= bsp;                     &= nbsp;                    <= span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> **********


Don=E2=80=99t worry= about the libpcap definition, from contrib/libpcap/pcap/dlt.h :
#define DLT_= NULL        0       /* BSD loopback encap= sulation */
#define DLT_EN10MB      1      = /* Ethernet (10Mb) */
#define DLT_EN3MB       2   &n= bsp;   /* Experimental Ethernet (3Mb) */
#define DLT_AX25   &nb= sp;    3       /* Amateur Radio AX.25 */
#define= DLT_PRONET      4       /* Proteon ProNET Tok= en Ring */
#define DLT_CHAOS       5       /= * Chaos */
#define DLT_IEEE802     6       /* 80= 2.5 Token Ring */
#define DLT_ARCNET      7     &= nbsp; /* ARCNET, with BSD-style header */
#define DLT_SLIP     &= nbsp;  8       /* Serial Line IP */
#define DLT_PPP &= nbsp;       9       /* Point-to-point Protocol= */
#define DLT_FDDI        10      /*= FDDI */

So the EN10MB is simply the term used for "Ethernet".

Rega= rds,
Olivier

=
Danny
  Ive run into this exact issue , older isil= ons and 10Gb nics. Like Olivier mentioned parallel streams is the way to go.=  In My case i would mount the isilon data 10 times on my clients . it w= as something like /data/0 /data/1... . The for rsync i knew what was going t= o be moved / worked on etc. So i would split the files into 10 sets and run 1= 0 rsyncs one for each substof data . ie set 0 would go from /data/0 to /targ= et/0  and so on.  That worked well then we also has a custom progr= am that fed jobs into a queue when a new task was picked from the queue , th= is was some big data thing don't remember exactly, the dir to work on was se= lected at random from 0-9 . Again that worked well , but we ultimately moved= to leofs then to minio both s3 work-a-likes to gain the parallel bits in th= e http transport .  Part of the nfs / cifs issues are the nature of the= single socket used for the mounts. So more mounts the better . Also on hind= sight i should have used the number of mounts equal to the  nic queues ,= and roughly that should line up with cores in the client as well. ie if i h= ad an 16 core single socket box i would want 8 nic queues to start , so they= can be serviced by free cores . Another thing you can play with is keeping t= he nic attached to the first numa domain , pin the work tasks / programs/ th= reads to the same domain , this ca get tricky but you can get some additiona= l speed and latency improvements. 


-= --
Mark Saad | nonesuch@longcount.org

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15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 7:26=E2=80=AFAM Mark Saad = wrote: > > > > On Jun 19, 2025, at 9:14=E2=80=AFAM, Daniel Braniss = wrote: > > =EF=BB=BFHi Olivier > The problem I have it=E2=80=99s that one end is an iscilon storage, not m= uch I can do there. > We are running several rsyncs in parallel, getting some better throughput= , but > nowhere near the 10GB/, actually just barely touching 1GB/s > > Thanks, > Danny > > On 19 Jun 2025, at 14:55, Olivier Cochard-Labb=C3=A9 wrote: > > > On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 8:20=E2=80=AFAM Daniel Braniss wrote: >> >> hi, >> >> i am running 14.2 on a DELL PowerEdge R750 with a mellanox/nvidia 100Gb = nic mlx5en: >> >> mce0: flags=3D1008843 m= etric 0 mtu 1500 >> >> options=3D66ef07bb >> ether ... >> inet ... netmask 0xfffffc00 broadcast =E2=80=A6. >> media: Ethernet 100GBase-KR4 >> status: active >> nd6 options=3D29 >> >> I=E2=80=99m doing a rsync from an iscsilon mounted via this mce0, the be= st max throughput is about 1GBs which is a bit depressing >> > > Regarding this 1GB/s (8Gb/s) it is how I get on my side with a very simpl= e netcat transfert. > By simple transfert, I mean using one TCP flow with a single process netc= at: > > On the receiver host: > nc -l 12345 > /dev/null > On the sender host: > dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12345 > 107374182400 bytes transferred in 77.772515 secs (1380618626 bytes/sec) > > Which is about 1.3GB/s, so close to your 1GB/s. > > Let=E2=80=99s dig a little more and one the sender, displaying the stats = for each NIC queues. > How many queues the drivers configured on my sender system ? > # sysctl dev.mce.0.conf.channels > dev.mce.0.conf.channels: 40 > So 40 queues (match my output of nproc), great. > But how many were used during this test: > # sysctl dev.mce.0 | awk '/txstat.*\.bytes/ && $NF !=3D 0' > dev.mce.0.txstat26tc0.bytes: 74 > dev.mce.0.txstat20tc0.bytes: 120 > dev.mce.0.txstat4tc0.bytes: 112564632016 > dev.mce.0.txstat0tc0.bytes: 60 > > =3D> Only one queue (the number 4 in my example) is used. > And it is the same problem on the receiver: One queue/one core > > Let=E2=80=99s improving this by running 8 parallels nc at the same time, = but we need to use 8 different TCP sessions to let RSS selecting 8 differen= ts queues: > On the receiver host: > nc -l 12341 > /dev/null & > nc -l 12342 > /dev/null & > nc -l 12343 > /dev/null & > nc -l 12344 > /dev/null & > nc -l 12345 > /dev/null & > nc -l 12346 > /dev/null & > nc -l 12347 > /dev/null & > nc -l 12348 > /dev/null > > On the sender host: > dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12341 & > dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12342 & > dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12343 & > dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12344 & > dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12345 & > dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12346 & > dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12347 & > dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12348 > > Then we need to add the output from all those dd: > 107374182400 bytes transferred in 103.937552 secs (1033064374 bytes/sec) > 107374182400 bytes transferred in 104.474689 secs (1027753071 bytes/sec) > 107374182400 bytes transferred in 104.939627 secs (1023199578 bytes/sec) > 107374182400 bytes transferred in 105.002306 secs (1022588806 bytes/sec) > 107374182400 bytes transferred in 105.674894 secs (1016080345 bytes/sec) > 107374182400 bytes transferred in 105.687319 secs (1015960885 bytes/sec) > 107374182400 bytes transferred in 106.480994 secs (1008388239 bytes/sec) > 107374182400 bytes transferred in 106.837954 secs (1005019084 bytes/sec) > > To have a total of 8152054382 bytes/sec (8.15 GBytes/s or 65Gb/s). > You can check the stats per queue, and you will notice that 8 of them sho= uld have been used. > So you need to use a multi-threaded/parallel rsync equivalent (on both si= des) to fill your link. > > >> but tcpdump -i mce0 says: >> store-09# tcpdump -i mce0 host >> tcpdump: verbose output suppressed, use -v[v]... for full protocol decod= e >> listening on mce0, link-type EN10MB (Ethernet), snapshot length 262144 b= ytes >> ********** >> > > Don=E2=80=99t worry about the libpcap definition, from contrib/libpcap/pc= ap/dlt.h : > #define DLT_NULL 0 /* BSD loopback encapsulation */ > #define DLT_EN10MB 1 /* Ethernet (10Mb) */ > #define DLT_EN3MB 2 /* Experimental Ethernet (3Mb) */ > #define DLT_AX25 3 /* Amateur Radio AX.25 */ > #define DLT_PRONET 4 /* Proteon ProNET Token Ring */ > #define DLT_CHAOS 5 /* Chaos */ > #define DLT_IEEE802 6 /* 802.5 Token Ring */ > #define DLT_ARCNET 7 /* ARCNET, with BSD-style header */ > #define DLT_SLIP 8 /* Serial Line IP */ > #define DLT_PPP 9 /* Point-to-point Protocol */ > #define DLT_FDDI 10 /* FDDI */ > > So the EN10MB is simply the term used for "Ethernet". > > Regards, > Olivier > > > Danny > Ive run into this exact issue , older isilons and 10Gb nics. Like Olivi= er mentioned parallel streams is the way to go. In My case i would mount t= he isilon data 10 times on my clients . it was something like /data/0 /data= /1... . The for rsync i knew what was going to be moved / worked on etc. So= i would split the files into 10 sets and run 10 rsyncs one for each substo= f data . ie set 0 would go from /data/0 to /target/0 and so on. That work= ed well then we also has a custom program that fed jobs into a queue when a= new task was picked from the queue , this was some big data thing don't re= member exactly, the dir to work on was selected at random from 0-9 . Again = that worked well , but we ultimately moved to leofs then to minio both s3 w= ork-a-likes to gain the parallel bits in the http transport . Part of the = nfs / cifs issues are the nature of the single socket used for the mounts. There is the "nconnect" mount option. It might help here. >So more mounts the better . > Also on hindsight i should have used the number of mounts equal to the n= ic queues , and roughly that should line up with cores in the client as wel= l. ie if i had an 16 core single socket box i would want 8 nic queues to st= art , so they can be serviced by free cores . Another thing you can play wi= th is keeping the nic attached to the first numa domain , pin the work task= s / programs/ threads to the same domain , this ca get tricky but you can g= et some additional speed and latency improvements. > > > --- > Mark Saad | nonesuch@longcount.org > > From nobody Thu Jun 19 15:10:11 2025 X-Original-To: hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bNPDg2glcz5ynm4 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2025 15:10:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nonesuch@longcount.org) Received: from mail-qv1-xf2b.google.com (mail-qv1-xf2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bNPDf0vPnz46lJ for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2025 15:10:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nonesuch@longcount.org) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=longcount.org header.s=google header.b=HAxtMrgq; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of nonesuch@longcount.org designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2b as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=nonesuch@longcount.org; dmarc=none Received: by mail-qv1-xf2b.google.com with SMTP id 6a1803df08f44-6fa980d05a8so8686016d6.2 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2025 08:10:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=longcount.org; s=google; t=1750345824; x=1750950624; darn=freebsd.org; h=to:in-reply-to:cc:references:message-id:date:subject:mime-version :from:content-transfer-encoding:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=WrAaDak+Gq0a37A5NXl+ZHwKCJ0Fw0XG0q/MYo+cRTk=; b=HAxtMrgqmYq0uNZKiSU4bAN4Uc9xbcukAWv+Um139rrwiq5X6C5i4MovF6P3J3n1yP QF3t1bkxXJ63Mv+XO6/2pOWETTqSyq2UbXoAz0vyxRD+tdICnuEjR/RXF/n21ri5JC7A DnuW1JKXPINQcT4Zy/u8SHlDyUaKeHtHb62bzx7CGsMGGbAIr/XyvX7B5KwIF8eR46nc 8AZYE6+mRl21vippOnWNZoNoIO/A/idMUteuORuBxCWUbsITzXg/NHz16SI72W3kdiKG 7Xs16e5ibq3bEi4IaNrFYrP1EpjM3esX0E12IXKt6OB9mOQeqC5Cp0JUQnoW+boPhC0h FnaQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1750345824; x=1750950624; h=to:in-reply-to:cc:references:message-id:date:subject:mime-version :from:content-transfer-encoding:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=WrAaDak+Gq0a37A5NXl+ZHwKCJ0Fw0XG0q/MYo+cRTk=; b=hgWY0mPrKWK4VIJF2SQ0anWXRby7HIM0YP2/SFOms5qdUmv8QCCPK4xRcXl/EWWzzY oy/oh9TFUG+qt8wp4dtf9gWzeIZjIA4xo6z2+ax0nKDetxuh9ZpSmwPa3Vp09vKrWFNV +3r5B4R4dgrI1r92wMpFNdinAmLIWCOcOMULxjB+RKHcrOxGciwV0sCWle9UQ3S6Khul 50JDsSiH/reGBupZM5zKtkc0URGdzGR4g/0D5MNzrTF1h5LCMJZpGh/jFZmlNbulf3w2 mkqxL6QuVnGUNFuW0/puL8xRaxrce+/1MK9r3WL3coqMSMSi48JWJJiedn8Ysuh1KBf8 FWwg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YximAyH4NW+3HmUJlJuf/n071bztUMExrVx5d/L7ixmdDBNmInO W+I0dnTLMzm/JZUHJBKB/Jvjvxc9kau7rqjJBvPTeAHniAukkYQlrogVzfjKCJ41UivJGB6C3N6 nfERuOt8= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGnctGUl7uehO70ZGUCpTD4t+aYgUa9xpHW3ugncCDhlSUL4Q8/fTRpMXtgPDd46S Fup2iZ49RDHwEXKPWql0nR9lPCzCJsI7TRb04AU5JvlP81ZGHpFOPWdWhYfD9hCCLrShNIatnLW BSL8QR+SR9jozJlqQYN6XEXRG2ragUl/uxeAGVcspL0GYOKIX5otFXqER5qUzpew80L2ig7mmQh YdotsRajLF6dQDyLKFfZn/rve9uGQYirPNCAbxH7PbBMW4gly6eK9Js7iqFY+OBlpLTZAtI9tws LxaVck3n4W1AFcE/RtyKvZOIGRBNKFnhtvCBcGxphlnPSh8b7iZnMO+XcbIUc1D80mDD3gyzvwC pq4vrlSrhpWzMybzM6d1pxJREeeOx1Le+km4Q1cgQ7L1CaXBu+nRNYkOrE8wdZP2k X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHkjPTgfnRVMVA+n9tJBoYjCv/SqTixFw43LnNERV/LOzssleKK1NB9wDlI9nVXMlg7Hot18g== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:4008:b0:6fb:f00:48a9 with SMTP id 6a1803df08f44-6fb47738b75mr340189516d6.19.1750345822234; Thu, 19 Jun 2025 08:10:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (pool-68-161-195-36.nycmny.fios.verizon.net. [68.161.195.36]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 6a1803df08f44-6fd09538023sm698196d6.69.2025.06.19.08.10.21 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 19 Jun 2025 08:10:21 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-866799EF-1EC1-4FCE-89BB-DCC967E0FC8D Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Mark Saad List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: 100Gb performance Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 11:10:11 -0400 Message-Id: <1C2FB1F7-1A19-4883-9F95-0F44974220BC@longcount.org> References: Cc: freebsd-hackers In-Reply-To: To: Rick Macklem X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (22F76) X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.17 / 15.00]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.000]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(1.00)[0.999]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.47)[0.469]; MIME_HTML_ONLY(0.20)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[longcount.org:s=google]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,multipart/related]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~,3:~]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[longcount.org]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[longcount.org:+]; APPLE_IOS_MAILER_COMMON(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2b:from]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[hackers@freebsd.org]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[hackers@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bNPDf0vPnz46lJ X-Spamd-Bar: ++ --Apple-Mail-866799EF-1EC1-4FCE-89BB-DCC967E0FC8D Content-Type: multipart/related; type="text/html"; boundary=Apple-Mail-B58B6E63-FA8E-4571-AD58-86BB20FA173D Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --Apple-Mail-B58B6E63-FA8E-4571-AD58-86BB20FA173D Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Jun 19, 2025, at 10:30=E2=80=AFAM, Rick Ma= cklem <rick.macklem@gmail.com> wrote:

=EF=BB=BFOn Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 7= :26=E2=80=AFAM Mark Saad <nonesuch@longcount.org> wrote:



=
On Jun 19, 2025, at 9:14=E2=80=AF= AM, Daniel Braniss <danny@cs.huji.ac.il> wrote:

=EF=BB=BFHi Olivier
The problem I have it=E2=80=99s that one end is an iscilon stora= ge, not much I can do there.
We are running several rsyncs in parallel, getting some better throu= ghput, but
nowhere ne= ar the 10GB/, actually just barely touching 1GB/s

Thanks,
Dann= y

On 19 Jun 2025, at 14:55, Olivier Cocha= rd-Labb=C3=A9 <olivier@freebsd.org> wrote:


On Thu, Jun 1= 9, 2025 at 8:20=E2=80=AFAM Daniel Braniss <danny@cs.huji.ac.il> wrote:=
=
hi,

i am runni= ng 14.2 on a DELL PowerEdge R750 with a mellanox/nvidia 100Gb nic  mlx5= en:

mce0: flags=3D1008843<UP,BROADCAST= ,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST,LOWER_UP> metric 0 mtu 1500
=
options=3D66ef07bb<RXCSUM,TXCSUM,VLAN_MTU,VLAN_HWTAGGI= NG,JUMBO_MTU,VLAN_HWCSUM,TSO4,TSO6,LRO,VLAN_HWFILTER,NV,VLAN_HWTSO,LINKSTATE= ,RXCSUM_IPV6,TXCSUM_IPV6,HWSTATS,HWRXTSTMP,MEXTPG,VXLAN_HWCSUM,VXLAN_HWTSO&g= t;
      ether ...
      inet ... netmask 0xfffffc00 b= roadcast =E2=80=A6.
      m= edia: Ethernet 100GBase-KR4 <full-duplex,rxpause,txpause>
=       status: active
=       nd6 options=3D29<PERFORMNUD,IFDISABL= ED,AUTO_LINKLOCAL>

=
I=E2=80=99m doing a= rsync from an iscsilon mounted via this mce0, the best max throughput is ab= out 1GBs which is a bit depressing


Regarding this 1GB/s (8Gb/s) it is how I get on my= side with a very simple netcat transfert.
By simple transfert, I mean using one TCP flow with a s= ingle process netcat:

On the receiver hos= t:
nc -l 12345 > /= dev/null
On the sende= r host:
dd if=3D/dev/= zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12345
107374182400 bytes transferred in 77.772515 secs (13= 80618626 bytes/sec)
<= /span>
Which is about 1.3GB/= s, so close to your 1GB/s.
=
Let=E2=80=99s d= ig a little more and one the sender, displaying the stats for each NIC queue= s.
How many queues th= e drivers configured on my sender system ?
# sysctl dev.mce.0.conf.channels
dev.mce.0.conf.channels: 40
So 40 queues (match my output of np= roc), great.
But how m= any were used during this test:
# sysctl dev.mce.0 | awk '/txstat.*\.bytes/ && $NF !=3D 0= '
dev.mce.0.txstat26t= c0.bytes: 74
dev.mce.= 0.txstat20tc0.bytes: 120
dev.mce.0.txstat4tc0.bytes: 112564632016
dev.mce.0.txstat0tc0.bytes: 60

=3D> Only one queue (the number 4 in my example) is used.
And it is the same prob= lem on the receiver: One queue/one core

L= et=E2=80=99s improving this by running 8 parallels nc at the same time, but w= e need to use 8 different TCP sessions to let RSS selecting 8 differents que= ues:
On the receiver h= ost:
nc -l 12341 >= /dev/null &
nc -= l 12342 > /dev/null &
nc -l 12343 > /dev/null &
nc -l 12344 > /dev/null &
<= blockquote type=3D"cite">nc -l 12345 > /dev/null &
nc -l 12346 > /dev/null &<= /span>
nc -l 12347 > /dev= /null &
nc -l 123= 48 > /dev/null

On the sender host:
dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1= G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12341 &
dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12342= &
dd if=3D/dev/z= ero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12343 &
dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.= 1.30 12344 &
dd i= f=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12345 &
dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100= | nc 1.1.1.30 12346 &
= dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G count=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12347 &=
dd if=3D/dev/zero bs=3D1G c= ount=3D100 | nc 1.1.1.30 12348

Then we ne= ed to add the output from all those dd:
107374182400 bytes transferred in 103.937552 secs (103306= 4374 bytes/sec)
10737= 4182400 bytes transferred in 104.474689 secs (1027753071 bytes/sec)
107374182400 bytes transferre= d in 104.939627 secs (1023199578 bytes/sec)
107374182400 bytes transferred in 105.002306 secs (10= 22588806 bytes/sec)
1= 07374182400 bytes transferred in 105.674894 secs (1016080345 bytes/sec)
107374182400 bytes transf= erred in 105.687319 secs (1015960885 bytes/sec)
107374182400 bytes transferred in 106.480994 secs= (1008388239 bytes/sec)
107374182400 bytes transferred in 106.837954 secs (1005019084 bytes/sec)<= /span>

To have a total of 8152054382 bytes/sec (= 8.15 GBytes/s or 65Gb/s).
<= span>You can check the stats per queue, and you will notice that 8 of them s= hould have been used.
So you need to use a multi-threaded/parallel rsync equivalent (on both side= s) to fill your link.


but tcpdump -= i mce0 says:
<= blockquote type=3D"cite">store-09# tcpdump -i mce0 host <same net a= s mce0>
tcpdump: verbose output suppressed, use -v[v]..= . for full protocol decode
listening on mce0, link-type EN= 10MB (Ethernet), snapshot length 262144 bytes
  = ;            &nb= sp;            &= nbsp;            = ;   **********


Don=E2=80=99t worry about the libpcap definition, from c= ontrib/libpcap/pcap/dlt.h :
#define DLT_NULL        0  &n= bsp;    /* BSD loopback encapsulation */
#define DLT_EN10MB    = ;  1       /* Ethernet (10Mb) */
#define DLT_EN3MB  =      2       /* Exper= imental Ethernet (3Mb) */
<= span>#define DLT_AX25        3  &nbs= p;    /* Amateur Radio AX.25 */
<= blockquote type=3D"cite">#define DLT_PRONET     &n= bsp;4       /* Proteon ProNET Token Ring */
#define DLT_CHAOS  = ;     5       /* Chao= s */
#define DLT_IEEE= 802     6       /* 802.5 T= oken Ring */
#define D= LT_ARCNET      7      &nbs= p;/* ARCNET, with BSD-style header */
#define DLT_SLIP        = 8       /* Serial Line IP */
#define DLT_PPP    &nbs= p;    9       /* Point-to-= point Protocol */
#de= fine DLT_FDDI        10    = ;  /* FDDI */

So the EN10MB is s= imply the term used for "Ethernet".

Regards= ,
Olivier
<= /blockquote>


Danny
 Ive r= un into this exact issue , older isilons and 10Gb nics. Like Olivier mention= ed parallel streams is the way to go.  In My case i would mount the isi= lon data 10 times on my clients . it was something like /data/0 /data/1... .= The for rsync i knew what was going to be moved / worked on etc. So i would= split the files into 10 sets and run 10 rsyncs one for each substof data . i= e set 0 would go from /data/0 to /target/0  and so on.  That worke= d well then we also has a custom program that fed jobs into a queue when a n= ew task was picked from the queue , this was some big data thing don't remem= ber exactly, the dir to work on was selected at random from 0-9 . Again that= worked well , but we ultimately moved to leofs then to minio both s3 work-a= -likes to gain the parallel bits in the http transport .  Part of the n= fs / cifs issues are the nature of the single socket used for the mounts.
There is the "nconnect" mount option. It might he= lp here.

Rick
&= nbsp;  i just read the option , that would have helped back when i star= ted this mess .  for example here is the review.

=E2=9A=99 D3097= 0 add a "nconnect" mount option to the NFS client
reviews= .freebsd.org
3D"favicon.png"

Danny give this a= try is super quick and painless.

So more mounts the better .=
Also on hindsight i should h= ave used the number of mounts equal to the  nic queues , and roughly th= at should line up with cores in the client as well. ie if i had an 16 core s= ingle socket box i would want 8 nic queues to start , so they can be service= d by free cores . Another thing you can play with is keeping the nic attache= d to the first numa domain , pin the work tasks / programs/ threads to the s= ame domain , this ca get tricky but you can get some additional speed and la= tency improvements.
<= /span>

---
Mark Saad | nonesuch@longcount.org
=



---
Mark= Saad | nonesuch@longcount.org
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OXEGLJN8/6ex/j8d46IgQr4A0wAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== --Apple-Mail-B58B6E63-FA8E-4571-AD58-86BB20FA173D-- --Apple-Mail-866799EF-1EC1-4FCE-89BB-DCC967E0FC8D-- From nobody Thu Jun 19 17:39:26 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bNSXl1x5Kz5yws2 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2025 17:39:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jgopensource@proton.me) Received: from mail-10630.protonmail.ch (mail-10630.protonmail.ch [79.135.106.30]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "protonmail.com", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bNSXj4cGFz3g7b for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2025 17:39:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jgopensource@proton.me) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=proton.me header.s=protonmail header.b=AVIGbDTQ; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jgopensource@proton.me designates 79.135.106.30 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jgopensource@proton.me; dmarc=pass (policy=quarantine) header.from=proton.me DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=proton.me; s=protonmail; t=1750354771; x=1750613971; bh=2NU/oGA7G0ZSMF+0XUom8wEF+n/sqCIDY1Lz7hoI2SM=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector:List-Unsubscribe:List-Unsubscribe-Post; b=AVIGbDTQknf54bEtbU9iX3kCGI7hteuW93rF1buVsa3um7NIRpCOec8wwiWziUrAN gZoybo5ySgWaW0JNHZ2MRMqp9BLwKxc2QSj3aYA3V0h/DEL2Q6et+7/Gk58bkVvZL0 1NstdVBHXYd2hiOn3fkY6TSiLmi+Hx4kZIwhILgTd3QGYv0jyr8uLPpvopFnEjOMc7 B+xbX89ecCL05uEIKnUXlF4s9oQeamYadV1sHPH3i+ruoUZ5CvjESppkMR+VAYqYDb iZsqh9HCfRyRDX5fT53gn9RxrqcQo8/xpoSAuAbaHuX3sPBK92B1BLS3fML/DymiaZ KDHFyFie2264g== Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 17:39:26 +0000 To: Karl Denninger From: Jordan Gordeev Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: An idea for the EFI (LUA) loader.... Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Feedback-ID: 125078299:user:proton X-Pm-Message-ID: 3e9a5ec8c9ebe32251cd2e9771951103ef4d42de List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.08 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.998]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.982]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[proton.me,quarantine]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_EXCELLENT(-0.40)[79.135.106.30:from]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.30)[0.302]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:79.135.106.0/24]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[proton.me:s=protonmail]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; ASN(0.00)[asn:62371, ipnet:79.135.106.0/24, country:CH]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[79.135.106.30:from]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[proton.me:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bNSXj4cGFz3g7b X-Spamd-Bar: --- On Tuesday, 17 June 2025 at 04:05, Karl Denninger wrot= e: > Here's the scenario: You have an embedded system that boots EFI. You can'= t control other than the media that's in the box that it boots from (which = someone sticks in there.) There might be other media in there, and there mi= ght not. >=20 > Right now the FreeBSD EFI loader will boot from the first bootable "thing= " it finds unless told otherwise (e.g. "rootdev=3D") >=20 > The problem is that it wants something like "rootdev=3Ddisk0s1a" -- a ful= l specification. >=20 Several solutions to this problem were offered on the FreeBSD forums. See <= https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/how-to-change-to-alt-root-filesystem-wit= h-nanobsd-and-uefi.71169/#post-705934> and later posts. Best regards, Jordan Gordeev From nobody Thu Jun 19 17:41:11 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bNSZj3QRJz5yxSt for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2025 17:41:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jgopensource@proton.me) Received: from mail-24417.protonmail.ch (mail-24417.protonmail.ch [109.224.244.17]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "protonmail.com", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bNSZh2lTsz3hR3 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2025 17:41:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jgopensource@proton.me) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=proton.me header.s=protonmail header.b=iIi7nQ4p; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jgopensource@proton.me designates 109.224.244.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jgopensource@proton.me; dmarc=pass (policy=quarantine) header.from=proton.me DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=proton.me; s=protonmail; t=1750354874; x=1750614074; bh=jRWmmrCg1948Q8lbiT5YedCUbL5BVu1ul0gtvoxpMHo=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector:List-Unsubscribe:List-Unsubscribe-Post; b=iIi7nQ4pepjdmCFCM9ZuKePMIs2g8bWeFf3WRcr41yLlcj4v4VV9uSUEGMhJ9zsKM 72aWs5aXuaedmaBrn90Pk2UhiHcOiKXCvb/bGk5Gde6UdgqjDWPLtU4lKi58Jlx+G3 Jx+x0dRycWFDfqCqXl4gRbTRZ+3oFO1oUREXMd7JCY3EiGi136/uUXmOSzcLjjXssb /V2jEnxEeLvRKznWB9tY5W4++zqgCTZQQlKfEEZJiuRTCK3QZSkeJsXxNyYYkSaNx0 iTKwzsJ7SEM9B1cm2rUbzj/DAfRFtdDqI8paDg4mDo/TTcWIKyowRYZCNojhuVBm3B 6AGBsvQuaRWCw== Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 17:41:11 +0000 To: Karl Denninger From: Jordan Gordeev Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: An idea for the EFI (LUA) loader.... Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Feedback-ID: 125078299:user:proton X-Pm-Message-ID: 1a4472fa3f85ae83f656ae4c540a67aaf9b14086 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.12 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.995]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.984]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[proton.me,quarantine]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_EXCELLENT(-0.40)[109.224.244.17:from]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.26)[0.257]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:109.224.244.0/24:c]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[proton.me:s=protonmail]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; ASN(0.00)[asn:62371, ipnet:109.224.244.0/24, country:CH]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[109.224.244.17:from]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[proton.me:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bNSZh2lTsz3hR3 X-Spamd-Bar: --- On Thursday, 19 June 2025 at 20:39, Jordan Gordeev = wrote: > On Tuesday, 17 June 2025 at 04:05, Karl Denninger karl@denninger.net wrot= e: >=20 > > Here's the scenario: You have an embedded system that boots EFI. You ca= n't control other than the media that's in the box that it boots from (whic= h someone sticks in there.) There might be other media in there, and there = might not. > >=20 > > Right now the FreeBSD EFI loader will boot from the first bootable "thi= ng" it finds unless told otherwise (e.g. "rootdev=3D") > >=20 > > The problem is that it wants something like "rootdev=3Ddisk0s1a" -- a f= ull specification. >=20 >=20 > Several solutions to this problem were offered on the FreeBSD forums. See= https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/how-to-change-to-alt-root-filesystem-wi= th-nanobsd-and-uefi.71169/#post-705934 and later posts. >=20 Wrong link. The correct one is . Best regards, Jordan Gordeev From nobody Thu Jun 19 18:42:01 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bNTx46TXqz601pD; Thu, 19 Jun 2025 18:42:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from kib.kiev.ua (kib.kiev.ua [IPv6:2001:470:d5e7:1::1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bNTx34RGWz3G7y; Thu, 19 Jun 2025 18:42:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; spf=softfail (mx1.freebsd.org: 2001:470:d5e7:1::1 is neither permitted nor denied by domain of kostikbel@gmail.com) smtp.mailfrom=kostikbel@gmail.com; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none) Received: from tom.home (kib@localhost [127.0.0.1] (may be forged)) by kib.kiev.ua (8.18.1/8.18.1) with ESMTP id 55JIg1gf073476; Thu, 19 Jun 2025 21:42:05 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 kib.kiev.ua 55JIg1gf073476 Received: (from kostik@localhost) by tom.home (8.18.1/8.18.1/Submit) id 55JIg1vM073474; Thu, 19 Jun 2025 21:42:01 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) X-Authentication-Warning: tom.home: kostik set sender to kostikbel@gmail.com using -f Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 21:42:01 +0300 From: Konstantin Belousov To: Sanchit Sahay Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Corrupted bp->b_lblkno on bread() // Life-cycle of a buf obj? Message-ID: References: List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED,FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD,FREEMAIL_FROM, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=4.0.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.1 (2024-03-26) on tom.home X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.47 / 15.00]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(1.00)[1.000]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[0.998]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.53)[-0.529]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[gmail.com : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-fs@freebsd.org,freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_SOFTFAIL(0.00)[~all]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bNTx34RGWz3G7y X-Spamd-Bar: ++ On Tue, Jun 17, 2025 at 11:07:49PM -0400, Sanchit Sahay wrote: > I'm working on porting a filesystem to FreeBSD, and am running into an > issue that I'm having difficulty debugging. Any help would be appreciated. > > When calling bread() with an blkno=lblkno, by the time the flow of the > control reaches the vop_strategy function, the value of lblkno changes from > 0 to a seemingly random value. There is something strange in the sentence. First you claim that b_blkno == b_lblkno, then you claim thant b_lbkno changes from 0 to some random value. So, is it 0 or b_blkno? > > Having inspected this with gdb, > > On frame 9: > > #9 0xffff0000c3e72930 in hfs_strategy () > 1488 kdb_enter("lblk random", "lblk random"); > > *(kgdb) p ap->a_bp->b_lblkno$10 = -281474971149872* > > On frame 10: > > #10 0xffff0000009387b0 in VOP_STRATEGY_APV () at vnode_if.c:2423 > 2423 rc = vop->vop_strategy(a); > > *(kgdb) p a->a_bp->b_lblkno$11 = 0* And the same pattern occurs there. > > This flow is triggered when calling bread() like so: > > retval = bread(vp, blockNum, block->blockSize, NOCRED, &bp); > > The stack trace is: > > #9 0xffff0000c3e72930 in hfs_strategy (ap=0xffff00009bbd1058) > #10 0xffff0000009387b0 in VOP_STRATEGY_APV ( > #11 0xffff00000054bbcc in VOP_STRATEGY (vp=0xffff000000a08fc5, > #12 bufstrategy (bo=, bp=0xffff0000404990c8) > #13 0xffff00000054d6f0 in bstrategy (bp=0xffff0000404990c8) > #14 breadn_flags > > There seems to be no code run between these two stacks, the a_bp in both > these frames points to the same memory address. No other fields are > modified between these two frames. > > Because of this seemingly random lblkno value, VOP_BMAP is not triggered, > and the read returns arbitrary results. > > This issue only occurs when I have the kernel compiled with these > additional flags (as suggested by the handbook for debugging deadlocks): > > options INVARIANTS > options INVARIANT_SUPPORT > options WITNESS > options WITNESS_SKIPSPIN > options DEBUG_LOCKS > options DEBUG_VFS_LOCKS > options DIAGNOSTIC > > Without these flags enabled, this lblkno corruption does not take place, > and the bread returns a valid read. I don't see any conditional code that > these flags enable which would cause such an issue. And this smells like an KBI (Kernel Binary Interface) issue, since DEBUG_LOCKS changes the layout of the struct lock, which is embedded into struct buf with which you have problems. How do you build your fs code? As a module? If yes, you must use the same set of opt_*.h headers as used for the kernel build. > > Any tips on how to investigate this further would be greatly appreciated, > or if I am missing something about the lifecycle of the buffer object that > might cause it to "reset" certain fields. > > Thanks > Sanchit Sahay From nobody Thu Jun 19 19:03:53 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bNVQH6LRyz602PN for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2025 19:04:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ss19723@nyu.edu) Received: from mx0a-00256a01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00256a01.pphosted.com [148.163.150.240]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.pphosted.com", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Organization Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bNVQH1H4qz3Yd2 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2025 19:04:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ss19723@nyu.edu) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from pps.filterd (m0380321.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00256a01.pphosted.com (8.18.1.2/8.18.1.2) with ESMTP id 55JICe3U022497 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2025 15:04:05 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nyu.edu; h=cc :content-type:date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:subject:to; s=20180315; bh=+lZCM1PQxDO1BNkbpwCM3gafU HQbOlUL8pA5HiKGKfU=; b=vDapC7mL3Oc2FIyjd3oRGbjI0FfyqJCIrZ8LQ5VoS N2vSkvPjVdHuKLyAmRtv+PtIiFCm7tW3nonnb7XyzW+sSGw3A5ugudp1plynamQj HfgRn45Hpm9BR9WYKZZ0pDeLz9HOo2/l8d9Z6DvcqyvyjxA22+tgsOoWtd1cqg4R I1W+uwwFZ5QmdJJjzuybJFOKw7+tvsoJPYVJfwSIbkaA1OHAmockW/Jqn3pfeW/w LP4vPyE2gbqcBrW3lHa1A8PWN08F+VjVULQB6hBwG33C13AgnOe/qbzG+09xYgdf Vjo/scKylsR2jvQOwSwOTmaN89GyU8nYj96CT9kB6N5Fw== Received: from mail-oi1-f198.google.com (mail-oi1-f198.google.com [209.85.167.198]) by mx0b-00256a01.pphosted.com (PPS) with ESMTPS id 47bynbe7fg-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2025 15:04:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-oi1-f198.google.com with SMTP id 5614622812f47-406680bec19so717919b6e.0 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2025 12:04:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1750359844; x=1750964644; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=+lZCM1PQxDO1BNkbpwCM3gafUHQbOlUL8pA5HiKGKfU=; b=Z6VbYrtdtPoT34TxK/RmUXNGE//FU1HlCUnJiOClAr8AZAlsafZ9D0RTwFZl6Cf+qU 9Ey2yl3GCKXyPxt/I+4tE+MrNcr6uaZHiDOXuoYO5rjM+VESyj33J7wwJL8mIoCgSi8m c1KeyvLgb/phf9VUxUjPV2SU2A+Teazbzv59gBaYVsKY8zMHWbvodfmwwNa+58ZVGdA4 lnVwCmHidi021xrmVfa0i0w0r8Ot/4dYeUpgROT87OzheB9XFksXbsrEn/8Flo0s4N08 KggjVJLo18DLJz4lQeS9zNTR7N4qm2SNUlcRJJ7f3KRpSsQvF/z2AVDtsBgEU19DqQN3 Z6sQ== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCVw+A8JH3NnwjfCDpG9gVcT3BtGcST5lSYPsWWnBSuZ7qSH+OvmkqqggwfngDcLo7DvylyzsDbua87pajqYI9g=@freebsd.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yw/vhaM7pA/VLGBwmJKZmtrKf/aRRO212b9rkqCZF90VJvXnjoL 7qT+NJ7Si41wHyFHuP1XpbWIpFINKvScbQoxL3Sjy8AHXnvHeVrFrLUx1d8vaF6TCvWr7M1UcWD 5CQvSSJAKFGboChfcTKtGJPLvKSeIWhClKxMbIq1y3GPootmTulwYZ6GoLZTmtIP8oLUEgNIazF n3iWD5F2QNMN5K+NL00WaNT7hOnvcSnJECw3w1CJiBLQGqhC8= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncuELGnw3BsEf+kIPfouFL6+9ETwHQWRC9ZpMKf1iM1aKA0xi4OMmSskWHYv+06 t33T0/VHeyEUNBcBNVyuFJUzLZxo44jpPCbH9XciW0OczFoKLNm5gBxPOk2bQpfCaCLUC5UnJdC NuyBFsBieUQs8XoxWI/J/BSSSV7vzeBijXrlrxxQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:13c3:b0:3fe:ab15:5ed6 with SMTP id 5614622812f47-40ac6ff0ac7mr32250b6e.12.1750359844220; Thu, 19 Jun 2025 12:04:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHN/mgegsAqHrz23o16eXfkDEoS11m6ILc3iKCEnusqa/tytSWI2DcLOAmlLZj7/43Ya8RFWqKMUmiu9mF1gZ8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:13c3:b0:3fe:ab15:5ed6 with SMTP id 5614622812f47-40ac6ff0ac7mr32228b6e.12.1750359843879; Thu, 19 Jun 2025 12:04:03 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Sanchit Sahay Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 15:03:53 -0400 X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFs__MUZSUsQq_JlLKzcrEuHjfbGo-fXtsK2u5fnE6KdOioH7nMOUlSYahU Message-ID: Subject: Re: Corrupted bp->b_lblkno on bread() // Life-cycle of a buf obj? To: Konstantin Belousov Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b954250637f1686d" X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.4 cv=ctebk04i c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=68545f25 cx=c_pps a=4ztaESFFfuz8Af0l9swBwA==:117 a=6IFa9wvqVegA:10 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=NYxidLQD0AV4gpqKSDsA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=P4KtYdHDhbBD92NBQI4A:9 a=UrLk_C0Ym8PS4jYA:21 a=lqcHg5cX4UMA:10 a=TPnrazJqx2CeVZ-ItzZ-:22 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: gy-WHz5DyZrQI1cYrlOqTj-g_DDRFlIv X-Proofpoint-GUID: gy-WHz5DyZrQI1cYrlOqTj-g_DDRFlIv X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details-Enc: AW1haW4tMjUwNjE5MDE1NiBTYWx0ZWRfX8ftScHiPg0gd EyB684ezYJNyv7SkvxceEn5cWWQamw7JsxSKbyjZi+5kYD0HFre4OQgWd8Bs3qzVr4BsYZd6CE7 iL6z38XNlStFtegbX3am7i+1Fb26jkjncjyvSmveUS2Syp07e31E4qdzkgBfRJp1bvHz/2VVIC4 6o1nY03ComnhSgfA736V/7/shN7ILXf66M2L3GGcYm8bzsKKbv9nqxcnW6BDfF7lQcIibeLzv3+ jI7Lh/UzblTAexkuiKq1JFL3/Aerp/PbrgsnHt962DTRYHSPRCbMHnqt4iTUGfkUwrCXMoJbdaj 8ncRs8SRBG4+s8QdvENIrRkmutERjPGRM3nG0bSLCI62dbDyJLx6clAJ9EOsqNrAc9PpAZz+1Pl rsYM0YaykpjHhOsGjsFENP7468gh28vLlNBo/mlfioJB4ubU8OIVqsdy7x6mM5kcDZ3mvfij X-Orig-IP: 209.85.167.198 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_bp_notspam policy=outbound_bp score=0 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 phishscore=0 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 priorityscore=1501 clxscore=1015 bulkscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 classifier=spam authscore=0 authtc=n/a authcc= route=outbound adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.19.0-2505280000 definitions=main-2506190156 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bNVQH1H4qz3Yd2 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:26211, ipnet:148.163.148.0/22, country:US] --000000000000b954250637f1686d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > There is something strange in the sentence. First you claim that > b_blkno == b_lblkno, then you claim thant b_lbkno changes from 0 to some > random value. Apologies for the confusing phrasing. What I meant by this is that pre-calling VOP_STRATEGY blkno and lblkno are the same (both are 0 in this particular case), which implies there needs to be a bmap call. > And this smells like an KBI (Kernel Binary Interface) issue, since DEBUG_LOCKS > changes the layout of the struct lock, which is embedded into struct buf > with which you have problems. > How do you build your fs code? As a module? If yes, you must use the same > set of opt_*.h headers as used for the kernel build. I think this might be it, I am building it as a kmod and hadn't taken the changed struct into account. Will try including these headers. Was starting to see similar behaviour creep up in a different code path as well. Thanks for the help! On Thu, 19 Jun 2025 at 14:42, Konstantin Belousov wrote: > On Tue, Jun 17, 2025 at 11:07:49PM -0400, Sanchit Sahay wrote: > > I'm working on porting a filesystem to FreeBSD, and am running into an > > issue that I'm having difficulty debugging. Any help would be > appreciated. > > > > When calling bread() with an blkno=lblkno, by the time the flow of the > > control reaches the vop_strategy function, the value of lblkno changes > from > > 0 to a seemingly random value. > There is something strange in the sentence. First you claim that > b_blkno == b_lblkno, then you claim thant b_lbkno changes from 0 to some > random value. > > So, is it 0 or b_blkno? > > > > > Having inspected this with gdb, > > > > On frame 9: > > > > #9 0xffff0000c3e72930 in hfs_strategy () > > 1488 kdb_enter("lblk random", "lblk random"); > > > > *(kgdb) p ap->a_bp->b_lblkno$10 = -281474971149872* > > > > On frame 10: > > > > #10 0xffff0000009387b0 in VOP_STRATEGY_APV () at vnode_if.c:2423 > > 2423 rc = vop->vop_strategy(a); > > > > *(kgdb) p a->a_bp->b_lblkno$11 = 0* > And the same pattern occurs there. > > > > > This flow is triggered when calling bread() like so: > > > > retval = bread(vp, blockNum, block->blockSize, NOCRED, &bp); > > > > The stack trace is: > > > > #9 0xffff0000c3e72930 in hfs_strategy (ap=0xffff00009bbd1058) > > #10 0xffff0000009387b0 in VOP_STRATEGY_APV ( > > #11 0xffff00000054bbcc in VOP_STRATEGY (vp=0xffff000000a08fc5, > > #12 bufstrategy (bo=, bp=0xffff0000404990c8) > > #13 0xffff00000054d6f0 in bstrategy (bp=0xffff0000404990c8) > > #14 breadn_flags > > > > There seems to be no code run between these two stacks, the a_bp in both > > these frames points to the same memory address. No other fields are > > modified between these two frames. > > > > Because of this seemingly random lblkno value, VOP_BMAP is not triggered, > > and the read returns arbitrary results. > > > > This issue only occurs when I have the kernel compiled with these > > additional flags (as suggested by the handbook for debugging deadlocks): > > > > options INVARIANTS > > options INVARIANT_SUPPORT > > options WITNESS > > options WITNESS_SKIPSPIN > > options DEBUG_LOCKS > > options DEBUG_VFS_LOCKS > > options DIAGNOSTIC > > > > Without these flags enabled, this lblkno corruption does not take place, > > and the bread returns a valid read. I don't see any conditional code that > > these flags enable which would cause such an issue. > And this smells like an KBI (Kernel Binary Interface) issue, since > DEBUG_LOCKS > changes the layout of the struct lock, which is embedded into struct buf > with which you have problems. > > How do you build your fs code? As a module? If yes, you must use the same > set of opt_*.h headers as used for the kernel build. > > > > > Any tips on how to investigate this further would be greatly appreciated, > > or if I am missing something about the lifecycle of the buffer object > that > > might cause it to "reset" certain fields. > > > > Thanks > > Sanchit Sahay > --000000000000b954250637f1686d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> There is something strange in = the sentence.=C2=A0 First you claim that
> b_blkno =3D=3D b_lblkno,= then you claim thant b_lbkno changes from 0 to some
> random value.<= div>
Apologies for the confusing phrasing. What I mean= t by this is that pre-calling VOP_STRATEGY blkno and lblkno are the same (b= oth are 0 in this particular case), which implies there needs to be a bmap = call.=C2=A0

>= And this smells like an KBI (Kernel Binary Interface) issue, since DEBUG_L= OCKS
> changes the layout of the struct lock, which is embedded into = struct buf
> with which you have problems.

> How do you bui= ld your fs code? As a module?=C2=A0 If yes, you must use the same
> s= et of opt_*.h headers as used for the kernel build.

I thin= k this might be it, I am building it as a kmod and hadn't taken the cha= nged struct into account. Will try including these headers. Was starting to= see similar behaviour creep up in a different code path as well. Thanks fo= r the=C2=A0help!

On Thu, 19 Jun 2025 at 14:42, Kons= tantin Belousov <kostikbel@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Jun 17, 2025 at 11:07:49PM -0400, Sanchit Saha= y wrote:
> I'm working on porting a filesystem to FreeBSD, and am running int= o an
> issue that I'm having difficulty debugging. Any help would be appr= eciated.
>
> When calling bread() with an blkno=3Dlblkno, by the time the flow of t= he
> control reaches the vop_strategy function, the value of lblkno changes= from
> 0 to a seemingly random value.
There is something strange in the sentence.=C2=A0 First you claim that
b_blkno =3D=3D b_lblkno, then you claim thant b_lbkno changes from 0 to som= e
random value.

So, is it 0 or b_blkno?

>
> Having inspected this with gdb,
>
> On frame 9:
>
> #9=C2=A0 0xffff0000c3e72930 in hfs_strategy ()
> 1488=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 kdb_enter("lblk ran= dom", "lblk random");
>
> *(kgdb) p ap->a_bp->b_lblkno$10 =3D -281474971149872*
>
> On frame 10:
>
> #10 0xffff0000009387b0 in VOP_STRATEGY_APV () at vnode_if.c:2423
> 2423=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 rc =3D vop->vop_strategy(a);
>
> *(kgdb) p a->a_bp->b_lblkno$11 =3D 0*
And the same pattern occurs there.

>
> This flow is triggered when calling bread() like so:
>
> retval =3D bread(vp, blockNum, block->blockSize, NOCRED, &bp);<= br> >
> The stack trace is:
>
> #9=C2=A0 0xffff0000c3e72930 in hfs_strategy (ap=3D0xffff00009bbd1058)<= br> > #10 0xffff0000009387b0 in VOP_STRATEGY_APV (
> #11 0xffff00000054bbcc in VOP_STRATEGY (vp=3D0xffff000000a08fc5,
> #12 bufstrategy (bo=3D<optimized out>, bp=3D0xffff0000404990c8)<= br> > #13 0xffff00000054d6f0 in bstrategy (bp=3D0xffff0000404990c8)
> #14 breadn_flags
>
> There seems to be no code run between these two stacks, the a_bp in bo= th
> these frames points to the same memory address. No other fields are > modified between these two frames.
>
> Because of this seemingly random lblkno value, VOP_BMAP is not trigger= ed,
> and the read returns arbitrary results.
>
> This issue only occurs when I have the kernel compiled with these
> additional flags (as suggested by the handbook for debugging deadlocks= ):
>
> options INVARIANTS
> options INVARIANT_SUPPORT
> options WITNESS
> options WITNESS_SKIPSPIN
> options DEBUG_LOCKS
> options DEBUG_VFS_LOCKS
> options DIAGNOSTIC
>
> Without these flags enabled, this lblkno corruption does not take plac= e,
> and the bread returns a valid read. I don't see any conditional co= de that
> these flags enable which would cause such an issue.
And this smells like an KBI (Kernel Binary Interface) issue, since DEBUG_LO= CKS
changes the layout of the struct lock, which is embedded into struct buf with which you have problems.

How do you build your fs code? As a module?=C2=A0 If yes, you must use the = same
set of opt_*.h headers as used for the kernel build.

>
> Any tips on how to investigate this further would be greatly appreciat= ed,
> or if I am missing something about the lifecycle of the buffer object = that
> might cause it to "reset" certain fields.
>
> Thanks
> Sanchit Sahay
--000000000000b954250637f1686d-- From nobody Thu Jun 19 19:20:45 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bNVnk4L8tz5PQ14; Thu, 19 Jun 2025 19:20:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Received: from kib.kiev.ua (kib.kiev.ua [IPv6:2001:470:d5e7:1::1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bNVnj5s0Hz3mWs; Thu, 19 Jun 2025 19:20:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from tom.home (kib@localhost [127.0.0.1] (may be forged)) by kib.kiev.ua (8.18.1/8.18.1) with ESMTP id 55JJKjuF077811; Thu, 19 Jun 2025 22:20:48 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 kib.kiev.ua 55JJKjuF077811 Received: (from kostik@localhost) by tom.home (8.18.1/8.18.1/Submit) id 55JJKjkE077810; Thu, 19 Jun 2025 22:20:45 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kostikbel@gmail.com) X-Authentication-Warning: tom.home: kostik set sender to kostikbel@gmail.com using -f Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 22:20:45 +0300 From: Konstantin Belousov To: Sanchit Sahay Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Corrupted bp->b_lblkno on bread() // Life-cycle of a buf obj? Message-ID: References: List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED,FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD,FREEMAIL_FROM, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=4.0.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.1 (2024-03-26) on tom.home X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bNVnj5s0Hz3mWs X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US] On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 03:03:53PM -0400, Sanchit Sahay wrote: > > There is something strange in the sentence. First you claim that > > b_blkno == b_lblkno, then you claim thant b_lbkno changes from 0 to some > > random value. > > Apologies for the confusing phrasing. What I meant by this is that > pre-calling VOP_STRATEGY blkno and lblkno are the same (both are 0 in this > particular case), which implies there needs to be a bmap call. > > > And this smells like an KBI (Kernel Binary Interface) issue, since > DEBUG_LOCKS > > changes the layout of the struct lock, which is embedded into struct buf > > with which you have problems. > > > How do you build your fs code? As a module? If yes, you must use the same > > set of opt_*.h headers as used for the kernel build. > > I think this might be it, I am building it as a kmod and hadn't taken the > changed struct into account. Will try including these headers. Was starting > to see similar behaviour creep up in a different code path as well. Thanks > for the help! How do you intend to include them? The right way, if you build your module out of tree, is to do something like the following: make -C SYSDIR= KERNBUILDDIR= i.e. KERNBUILDDIR should point to the directory where config(8) put the generated files, most important are opt_*.h. > > On Thu, 19 Jun 2025 at 14:42, Konstantin Belousov > wrote: > > > On Tue, Jun 17, 2025 at 11:07:49PM -0400, Sanchit Sahay wrote: > > > I'm working on porting a filesystem to FreeBSD, and am running into an > > > issue that I'm having difficulty debugging. Any help would be > > appreciated. > > > > > > When calling bread() with an blkno=lblkno, by the time the flow of the > > > control reaches the vop_strategy function, the value of lblkno changes > > from > > > 0 to a seemingly random value. > > There is something strange in the sentence. First you claim that > > b_blkno == b_lblkno, then you claim thant b_lbkno changes from 0 to some > > random value. > > > > So, is it 0 or b_blkno? > > > > > > > > Having inspected this with gdb, > > > > > > On frame 9: > > > > > > #9 0xffff0000c3e72930 in hfs_strategy () > > > 1488 kdb_enter("lblk random", "lblk random"); > > > > > > *(kgdb) p ap->a_bp->b_lblkno$10 = -281474971149872* > > > > > > On frame 10: > > > > > > #10 0xffff0000009387b0 in VOP_STRATEGY_APV () at vnode_if.c:2423 > > > 2423 rc = vop->vop_strategy(a); > > > > > > *(kgdb) p a->a_bp->b_lblkno$11 = 0* > > And the same pattern occurs there. > > > > > > > > This flow is triggered when calling bread() like so: > > > > > > retval = bread(vp, blockNum, block->blockSize, NOCRED, &bp); > > > > > > The stack trace is: > > > > > > #9 0xffff0000c3e72930 in hfs_strategy (ap=0xffff00009bbd1058) > > > #10 0xffff0000009387b0 in VOP_STRATEGY_APV ( > > > #11 0xffff00000054bbcc in VOP_STRATEGY (vp=0xffff000000a08fc5, > > > #12 bufstrategy (bo=, bp=0xffff0000404990c8) > > > #13 0xffff00000054d6f0 in bstrategy (bp=0xffff0000404990c8) > > > #14 breadn_flags > > > > > > There seems to be no code run between these two stacks, the a_bp in both > > > these frames points to the same memory address. No other fields are > > > modified between these two frames. > > > > > > Because of this seemingly random lblkno value, VOP_BMAP is not triggered, > > > and the read returns arbitrary results. > > > > > > This issue only occurs when I have the kernel compiled with these > > > additional flags (as suggested by the handbook for debugging deadlocks): > > > > > > options INVARIANTS > > > options INVARIANT_SUPPORT > > > options WITNESS > > > options WITNESS_SKIPSPIN > > > options DEBUG_LOCKS > > > options DEBUG_VFS_LOCKS > > > options DIAGNOSTIC > > > > > > Without these flags enabled, this lblkno corruption does not take place, > > > and the bread returns a valid read. I don't see any conditional code that > > > these flags enable which would cause such an issue. > > And this smells like an KBI (Kernel Binary Interface) issue, since > > DEBUG_LOCKS > > changes the layout of the struct lock, which is embedded into struct buf > > with which you have problems. > > > > How do you build your fs code? As a module? If yes, you must use the same > > set of opt_*.h headers as used for the kernel build. > > > > > > > > Any tips on how to investigate this further would be greatly appreciated, > > > or if I am missing something about the lifecycle of the buffer object > > that > > > might cause it to "reset" certain fields. > > > > > > Thanks > > > Sanchit Sahay > > From nobody Thu Jun 19 21:34:29 2025 X-Original-To: hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bNYm12dywz5PYl1 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2025 21:34:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olivier@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bNYm116n0z3F3s for ; 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boundary="0000000000005a75a70637f3835e" --0000000000005a75a70637f3835e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 4:31=E2=80=AFPM Rick Macklem wrote: > There is the "nconnect" mount option. It might help here. > > Interesting! Let=E2=80=99s try: Server side: ``` mkdir /tmp/nfs mount -t tmpfs tmpfs /tmp/nfs chmod 777 /tmp/nfs/ cat > /etc/exports < No difference here, but 16 output queues were correctly used with nconnect=3D16. How is load-sharing done with NFS nconnect ? I=E2=80=99ve tested with benchmarks/fio using parallel jobs and I don=E2=80= =99t see any improvement too. Regards, Olivier --0000000000005a75a70637f3835e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 4:31=E2=80=AFPM Rick Macklem <rick.macklem@gmail.com> wrote:
= =C2=A0
There is the "nconnect" mount option. It might help here.


Interesting!

<= /div>
Let=E2=80=99s try:

Serv= er side:
```
mkdir /tmp/nfs
mount -t tmpfs tmpfs /tm= p/nfs
chmod 777 /tmp/nfs/
cat > /etc/exports <<E= OF
V4: /tmp
/tmp/nfs -network 1.1.1.0/2= 4
EOF
sysrc nfs_server_enable=3DYES
sysrc nfsv4_server_enable= =3DYES
sysrc nfsv4_server_only=3DYES
service nfsd start
```
<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:"courier new",mo= nospace">
Client side:
```
mkdir /tmp/= nfs
sysrc nfs_client_enable=3DYES
service nfsclient start
```

Now testing standard=C2=A0speed:=
```
# mount -t nfs -o noatime,nfsv4 1.1.1.30:/nfs /tmp/n= fs/
# netstat -an -f inet -p tcp | grep 2049 | wc -l
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A01
# dd if=3D/dev/zero of=3D/tmp/nfs/test bs=3D1G count=3D10=
10+0 records in
10+0 records out
10737418240 bytes transferred in= 8.526794 secs (1259256159 bytes/sec)
# rm /tmp/nfs/test
= # umount /tmp/nfs
```

And= with nconnect=3D16:
```
# mount -t nfs -o noatime,nfsv4,= nconnect=3D16 1.1.1.30:/nfs /tmp/nfs/
# dd if=3D/dev/zero of=3D/tmp/nfs/= test bs=3D1G count=3D10
10+0 records in
10+0 records out
107374182= 40 bytes transferred in 8.633871 secs (1243638980 bytes/sec)
# rm /tmp/nfs/test
# netstat -an -f inet -p tcp | grep 2049 | wc -l
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 16
```

=3D> No difference here, but 16 output queues were correctly used wit= h nconnect=3D16.
How is load-sharing done with NFS nconnect = ?
I=E2=80=99ve tested with=C2=A0benchmarks/fio using paralle= l jobs and I don=E2=80=99t see any improvement too.

Regards,
Olivier
--0000000000005a75a70637f3835e-- From nobody Fri Jun 20 04:24:51 2025 X-Original-To: hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bNksj1shKz5ySZh for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2025 04:25:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rick.macklem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ed1-x534.google.com (mail-ed1-x534.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::534]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bNksh597yz3Bwl; Fri, 20 Jun 2025 04:25:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rick.macklem@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-ed1-x534.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-60780d74bbaso2509712a12.0; Thu, 19 Jun 2025 21:25:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1750393506; x=1750998306; darn=freebsd.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=bKRnU94NteC0nEMVak3tzderSiq6RlEAb6zNgpOZZ9A=; b=a/TMkzLshV4icPGFp96fsVvTIjafJ6IVPmDlSQsFV655TstfVMlB4wOlSM11COf9dX 4gMQnSuFJ4CUSn3Tggy4hOTMmy1BX+tMZyy6hxGMzzhTY3Gnd32OoRx6zlLKGZepcJn8 dvBwOl1EEVES4PqjBtiNX3uPk8yAozSBDCkAGh1u9sVbFdqOTijwdinttZSMaMXKzDox y1z3qizSKWVVFld6R1qbArkE+sBdSeQ8YeHiNjMVA9ul72pRCRTAnIzDAifQrAlzRQeK L2z4n6kIq0xJI5LuBJtTRTpxUuTyehsCu3DugqA/AvDA0/TTgPqZGeatwba76trzUPaR jynA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1750393506; x=1750998306; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=bKRnU94NteC0nEMVak3tzderSiq6RlEAb6zNgpOZZ9A=; b=nWsMQTJcGB3kls/cWbAqvun6O27mwv7cekUR7EObxVO/4mwXDuB1Vs81pSWFwdLX0B Fp73zIeOt1x6Jx+6G2TRMC8/uwSKioaEYW/tULuHkeWdNnE+Fd+GjbngsGI+cWQpElwt b70PBRu3aFITFVyFJJCbvWm+IGobCsTrtliohNmK/fmorxvIISE/PrV857H+yPxuUiuk N+XxYHvHE2wpj3dOOZg+cQU917dzd/m/TOmaycfQ90a+zpT2/0pH9zH0Olj4dX9CrDDc aibHBr0mNPsuSYpZTACrWG17+Y1vym/53j31kSSIzm7FiTz78snqv/gBPkMKictsz103 JgKg== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCVzb6tA64iqOQsNETBIwJIMnwLHFmpxrBQaosGLmUcyxs0op0/nr4G0SkK7YBQq3nfQLps4pp8S@freebsd.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwbRB+SshR7Wx0U23rMBHpAZokQs9qxt24Md+VoD/Uk4fvb29e5 LNma5zaY36jRvrU8GjUqx69sZbEeDB9vORwMGBmdDPO5539kwNksbe7fV93SKPPKT+Z05zG0gQB YA/3VQkt8XRfKjxjTT3iOT3aryBDKPoAyX2A= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncuAV+SOG0LOWMt1KP+AUXNw1F3/n22lcqVqR7mMCLcP9wSuRrEM/F2Zd2I9vg4 E/kB41l0hN/0uRlIlqHUd/30q0nY5YSlhFntCxO2ZTLAUQPieacfrEgfjyXwVE4aBnIuPMqekN9 Ii3GltG1BXXssCcpOCIBVKTnwKcrD+AFcMGgTEuSMLMoC+Xop9W4ID3D/OCN3ZCXyCS325A+ewi 74= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHS+E4sMpzOJMfX/NW0nG9pkHgMcsO5asu8TQjJrSvE9KLv2VP6eOA1Qs9Zmv52UEXYfX48jEx9RDtJyEMp7ZU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:270d:b0:601:cf15:c093 with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-60a2408f787mr709578a12.14.1750393505473; Thu, 19 Jun 2025 21:25:05 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <585AA32B-F679-411F-B472-9E903E70A653@cs.huji.ac.il> <8EB5CD7B-8DC8-4B95-A90A-A0DF8FD80BB4@longcount.org> In-Reply-To: From: Rick Macklem Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 21:24:51 -0700 X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFvWCUBaqxxnJMb2rffZuamtbGVFCbDdvBTf6af_SUCZPTUQALzwRlNUjz0 Message-ID: Subject: Re: 100Gb performance To: =?UTF-8?Q?Olivier_Cochard=2DLabb=C3=A9?= Cc: Mark Saad , freebsd-hackers Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bNksh597yz3Bwl X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 2:34=E2=80=AFPM Olivier Cochard-Labb=C3=A9 wrote: > > > > On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 4:31=E2=80=AFPM Rick Macklem wrote: > >> >> There is the "nconnect" mount option. It might help here. >> > > Interesting! > > Let=E2=80=99s try: > > Server side: > ``` > mkdir /tmp/nfs > mount -t tmpfs tmpfs /tmp/nfs > chmod 777 /tmp/nfs/ > cat > /etc/exports < V4: /tmp > /tmp/nfs -network 1.1.1.0/24 > EOF > sysrc nfs_server_enable=3DYES > sysrc nfsv4_server_enable=3DYES > sysrc nfsv4_server_only=3DYES > service nfsd start > ``` > > Client side: > ``` > mkdir /tmp/nfs > sysrc nfs_client_enable=3DYES > service nfsclient start > ``` > > Now testing standard speed: > ``` > # mount -t nfs -o noatime,nfsv4 1.1.1.30:/nfs /tmp/nfs/ > # netstat -an -f inet -p tcp | grep 2049 | wc -l > 1 > # dd if=3D/dev/zero of=3D/tmp/nfs/test bs=3D1G count=3D10 > 10+0 records in > 10+0 records out > 10737418240 bytes transferred in 8.526794 secs (1259256159 bytes/sec) > # rm /tmp/nfs/test > # umount /tmp/nfs > ``` > > And with nconnect=3D16: > ``` > # mount -t nfs -o noatime,nfsv4,nconnect=3D16 1.1.1.30:/nfs /tmp/nfs/ > # dd if=3D/dev/zero of=3D/tmp/nfs/test bs=3D1G count=3D10 > 10+0 records in > 10+0 records out > 10737418240 bytes transferred in 8.633871 secs (1243638980 bytes/sec) > # rm /tmp/nfs/test > # netstat -an -f inet -p tcp | grep 2049 | wc -l > 16 > ``` > > =3D> No difference here, but 16 output queues were correctly used with nc= onnect=3D16. > How is load-sharing done with NFS nconnect ? round robin > I=E2=80=99ve tested with benchmarks/fio using parallel jobs and I don=E2= =80=99t see any improvement too. And what NIC speed are you testing? (10Gbps or 100Gbps?) (Basically, you appear to be running at what would be 10Gbps wire speed.) rick > > Regards, > Olivier From nobody Fri Jun 20 05:25:12 2025 X-Original-To: hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bNmCJ5D7cz5yXM0 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2025 05:25:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rick.macklem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ed1-x530.google.com (mail-ed1-x530.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::530]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bNmCJ2VFdz3cVV; Fri, 20 Jun 2025 05:25:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rick.macklem@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-ed1-x530.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-607ea238c37so2787332a12.2; Thu, 19 Jun 2025 22:25:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1750397126; x=1751001926; darn=freebsd.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=PzbXmcJpcC5jr7SLUbkbxzh2/GR4buFJZDkLwSipKEg=; b=WIb0vJpH1haL71rt3KeL6w+2upeLLjZANK33zPpGl31fldga1HKqMFIqXdNAqrixU+ qRtrVfrZhd3UppXc2BbeG2irKtACVo2gwskMrb5InExhKmK5N4WnwPKX+AB0uueOVK4Q Cm0OQy7l3e1PX3HX9qUuXgopOY1h2X3unWFf5N14njvM4/HzueFkFXKbUUU/LCqDNuZm BJE3Ag8q7N6WBQQF/qsdty+n4g1DV1n/MJNu0YPz3lMMASdegqVxUdhqNeAPK9nTRha3 ZAgHJm4pdAc6cViWZ9GArzID2bSmSJ18v/WZ4SoCkNkKcTVizpUPhVi2H5i4n9uA++OM YfuA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1750397126; x=1751001926; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=PzbXmcJpcC5jr7SLUbkbxzh2/GR4buFJZDkLwSipKEg=; b=LMsoV8ZJuMIhAEO7wmgy9b9++1b3jumpeMCO56UxfXro0WUvvKCvZs96K//EURVNLF 6mefkWRaYs1Zg3LVecycaT8ZpuJY8cKszlL8tngZVpdYQTS0yx0G1YKgXoz9l52zqWmh 3fattPFKproJoS1yUhMa79vxGtvTyQyuudUh1H9Ux1hZ4S03NT+BKXyyf/rvADO5Ec8g iP1bEfhECfgXqm+w7g0E7XQMAEN/N44coufLDfzSETsB0FVYa8SkdQlzXGGmN7rkvPm3 AmMjC8JhBKrqxxCXe0Qx1jhDLWokiaX+EYa/LxkuGqHt8LLpHO66VsooFSgR9aiOj6xA TX1A== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCUjDXIxfEH0n6tDd4M334p/MPrg6vtKwZLdN6084xa4T/NoD28l23THeFLSsd4eQbPgWUShfa3C@freebsd.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yy5TJcU+1dBbBU/Y0lnf+IzacRNyARCE8h1e83Ky0gf2q5/tjZ2 UsbVFpMs9IM35hGGoL52tpzxzuC8NWeIxaDUgehpxHuMrZPldcfE2MxS2j/+c3qbBJ06JHrfig2 NuLIPiSyrWG/SOR84HkbqQYNgyBoe+D8Y92A= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncsGu52V4VHUN/OTPGz2Sq0b84llmMt+hD4aaS/AtjKQ39X68U8Zzn/UznmZqY+ pNVfPbERstyjxhIaeywJIxQvzRPPopPEHmXLoQEUF9RuQHEX8HRL41qfma57cRWLkxbZgyuECYW xda0Wr5FfpSDxj2Moy1jzuv9cPiZ8kEVgAmHjd3BxW2tcY/cAXCDbedmil/EJtEDCmQ5/mX+xV8 TI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEl12Wob+EB1Jol2pIKq2HCOtrEt/5d7RteXdTFqxxKvjQ3NRluguMYorijxDTx35XDm4+QvYI9/9AkYBDVEHM= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:270e:b0:5fc:9979:78f7 with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-60a1ccb64d4mr1171731a12.14.1750397125566; Thu, 19 Jun 2025 22:25:25 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <585AA32B-F679-411F-B472-9E903E70A653@cs.huji.ac.il> <8EB5CD7B-8DC8-4B95-A90A-A0DF8FD80BB4@longcount.org> In-Reply-To: From: Rick Macklem Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 22:25:12 -0700 X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFti-Z_bMk5kR6Z9KFMTYlUN-dKEwoKb3i_ZpO49FpSP1WwOzOxWoSmxGGs Message-ID: Subject: Re: 100Gb performance To: =?UTF-8?Q?Olivier_Cochard=2DLabb=C3=A9?= Cc: Mark Saad , freebsd-hackers Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bNmCJ2VFdz3cVV X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 2:34=E2=80=AFPM Olivier Cochard-Labb=C3=A9 wrote: > > > > On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 4:31=E2=80=AFPM Rick Macklem wrote: > >> >> There is the "nconnect" mount option. It might help here. >> > > Interesting! > > Let=E2=80=99s try: > > Server side: > ``` > mkdir /tmp/nfs > mount -t tmpfs tmpfs /tmp/nfs > chmod 777 /tmp/nfs/ > cat > /etc/exports < V4: /tmp > /tmp/nfs -network 1.1.1.0/24 > EOF > sysrc nfs_server_enable=3DYES > sysrc nfsv4_server_enable=3DYES > sysrc nfsv4_server_only=3DYES > service nfsd start > ``` > > Client side: > ``` > mkdir /tmp/nfs > sysrc nfs_client_enable=3DYES > service nfsclient start > ``` > > Now testing standard speed: > ``` > # mount -t nfs -o noatime,nfsv4 1.1.1.30:/nfs /tmp/nfs/ > # netstat -an -f inet -p tcp | grep 2049 | wc -l > 1 > # dd if=3D/dev/zero of=3D/tmp/nfs/test bs=3D1G count=3D10 > 10+0 records in > 10+0 records out > 10737418240 bytes transferred in 8.526794 secs (1259256159 bytes/sec) > # rm /tmp/nfs/test > # umount /tmp/nfs > ``` > > And with nconnect=3D16: > ``` > # mount -t nfs -o noatime,nfsv4,nconnect=3D16 1.1.1.30:/nfs /tmp/nfs/ > # dd if=3D/dev/zero of=3D/tmp/nfs/test bs=3D1G count=3D10 > 10+0 records in > 10+0 records out > 10737418240 bytes transferred in 8.633871 secs (1243638980 bytes/sec) > # rm /tmp/nfs/test > # netstat -an -f inet -p tcp | grep 2049 | wc -l > 16 > ``` > > =3D> No difference here, but 16 output queues were correctly used with nc= onnect=3D16. > How is load-sharing done with NFS nconnect ? > I=E2=80=99ve tested with benchmarks/fio using parallel jobs and I don=E2= =80=99t see any improvement too. Here's a few other things you can try.. On the server: - add nfs_server_maxio=3D1048576 to /etc/rc.conf. On the client: - put vfs.maxbcachebuf=3D1048576 in /boot/loader.conf - use "wcommitsize=3D" as an additional mount option. On both client and server, bump kern.ipc.maxsockbuf up a bunch. Once you do the mount do # nfsstat -m on the client and you should see the rsize/wsize set to 1048576 and a large value for wcommitsize For reading, you should also use "readahead=3D8" as a mount option. Also, if you can turn down (or turn off) interrupt moderation on the NIC driver, try that. (Interrupt moderation is great for data streaming in one direction but is not so good for NFS, which consists of bidirectiona= l traffic of mostly small RPC messages. Every Write gets a small reply messag= e in the server->client direction to complete the Write and delay processing these small received messages will slow NFS down.) rick > > Regards, > Olivier From nobody Fri Jun 20 05:45:46 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bNmfw5V1Qz5yY2T for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2025 05:46:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ss19723@nyu.edu) Received: from mx0b-00256a01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00256a01.pphosted.com [67.231.153.242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.pphosted.com", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Organization Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bNmfw1lmFz3myC for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2025 05:46:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ss19723@nyu.edu) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from pps.filterd (m0119692.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00256a01.pphosted.com (8.18.1.2/8.18.1.2) with ESMTP id 55K4AWrO008692 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2025 01:45:59 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nyu.edu; h=cc :content-type:date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:subject:to; s=20180315; bh=YI3k7WuY/QUqi5+MdlTmVo977 w6lhfKgOiWypH6lr0E=; b=aUIa84c90fYYvuZJuwVfgyninMgfN3WDefRrncOHQ bWOqwedwIXQu9TKRctSw+hgazitdCtRX31mCigGZ42XBcRvbMSakTuEIE5mnUx/+ bILIn09bGr/yoIJ0s53RggxLCo9CkSVUi1rEQxHTdw1AIKoVKluSR7ard56kEMG8 QhsccX9lrDcbSFzkQD7PFiKdTIgbyubFCp7WmL+MjdgYOrAyO0cP7QYpKIYt1V4P VMNU3YPTeq/90ssQUyqqCsdv8ESSY3FkAOp0wG1XQuVWIB5fgM3MG6pELhQo5fUA HOZmS/4KsfvHsyneXzfs2cJ3AP06+mkfetH6/9qbW+gxA== Received: from mail-oa1-f71.google.com (mail-oa1-f71.google.com [209.85.160.71]) by mx0b-00256a01.pphosted.com (PPS) with ESMTPS id 4792xay7ee-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2025 01:45:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-oa1-f71.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-2d9c7cf9c08so459604fac.3 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2025 22:45:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1750398358; x=1751003158; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=YI3k7WuY/QUqi5+MdlTmVo977w6lhfKgOiWypH6lr0E=; b=JQiwzyrpVsOn9/XkKyuYyZochc4IxRpb51uC7VfHcDijPEJMmqvTdDCp+zwEgi1pQu yPIyFcR0KbiLOKTcPt2/FdFLS/ebzbLKBY63yFw6iFkIwcT2e77NJOwA0Ub/qt70YUkI EUkMVYwcxvkahZm2TUaBuKfRBc+j5KmfsEPRWNWXiL4nI3rasrSoBPruZbTovdkU8m4h mbzivDtghNRvg6CuoXAGvIHj4uIYzvBg8Jg0ZTPu475I6tvAafBBOwvWKULqWNjzKMql 1HLJ/3PfxVob7/2cOnbNBBTCCX6olUDh1kDkDkSnK5AbLOdIfr8oAgWXWtwLBBRLBTm8 oXWg== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCULUt1D2HvK+/ShefOy5pCaFTchz2lWDOlimGRD0mgxAuNJvDv4LrJa9LjRfy+mpV01fbko6acVJZveIwYZ8QU=@freebsd.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YypM4w29j7IjCaOkehRyJzTrX+IoRn0qFasqANoTGqXnC2JUsKg HFMeqmGZ5e3n5VV6FofPt+L0aawBwwqkTlZWZNBOvIoDGLAgNkOuRZJkghIKbkZ1DHb7+iOgaO9 2tW+PB1v07sMG5SXy8N8MTvzuqSWMP78OAyJeAmDhNKkGJNYG+iOelTdm8F3bH+VB9Lh6THfJrr +tvOmTrc8XK1qGrXqMwnJZfrIf5ExfwtG2e7Vk X-Gm-Gg: ASbGnctHN5ikABFa/TdB7QBpFQMrXEAhbcnI38hcOIEnmeL66BbQDYcuZEunXPEIdZe Pr/9U0mX/v9YE+EPRc6OW90N50D8iy3eD5CA2Le1c/mB8ORUr1cgoCJR5yIezEzTkMTjWK+l09b Xi7EOF/Yj9Pxtv7aoOhyyoXvhyQUporIu0tXepQg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6871:547:b0:2d4:ce45:6993 with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-2eeee5c758bmr1170303fac.30.1750398357737; Thu, 19 Jun 2025 22:45:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEQb8kPayJ7pV02KBqHKRYJZmF8aeCRIs1NXiQOcFbuOpUH9LpCvNTIHyjrMoQSzFBVGN3zl2caqrGPBL7Fzdo= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6871:547:b0:2d4:ce45:6993 with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-2eeee5c758bmr1170298fac.30.1750398357374; Thu, 19 Jun 2025 22:45:57 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Sanchit Sahay Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2025 01:45:46 -0400 X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFtfxW--I2oC8CVZevPLc8Upvvfwmh_RoJdwmvsYeg1iUrY4hXW8AgimY9g Message-ID: Subject: Re: Corrupted bp->b_lblkno on bread() // Life-cycle of a buf obj? To: Konstantin Belousov Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004ea0ee0637fa6004" X-Proofpoint-GUID: cou8ZHtJltRpJhGLco8Xu1m3Ox3V98je X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: cou8ZHtJltRpJhGLco8Xu1m3Ox3V98je X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.4 cv=StSQ6OO0 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=6854f596 cx=c_pps a=CWtnpBpaoqyeOyNyJ5EW7Q==:117 a=6IFa9wvqVegA:10 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=PDha_BWy5YkOswN5z5wA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=3_oeXpooSS3FOYeva0YA:9 a=uGBs-sh_fZYWSI0t:21 a=lqcHg5cX4UMA:10 a=vh23qwtRXIYOdz9xvnmn:22 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details-Enc: AW1haW4tMjUwNjIwMDA0MiBTYWx0ZWRfX0bQweR487t+Y uR8O8fqPHPmzxZlSouC4okyG/SoNZiUjbtH3dwr2tDWSdde4L/6PX/ohbPD76UucreT2I3RiUB9 f6hw9p7K2r2o1gNTMYf4RJXe5IxM2bv5Xf5b1O4mMyjjdHQHHC6u7mGTxZfl2Kedlonwcc7Hlbs fnIxNGKe8mjFrDTLZ0EBKTSNw5etePEkZSSBXkEt+MRQrTGFp1YHrqwv0yQhXPGL2ph+oC1Iq34 KpCiigBTdvGMMYeFPb23CRl/RS9PDVguInIH7yXT49TkRDgjsJyxglMamYyKHhdyPTuGlvLPyyW y0EOoUeISYeAQoHh1tkrPreHwO9TB4BV/qRSvnCaU6hYqGsMMrXEcT6Aem16K0rEX3vVwD8w9Lh kX508h3Jqt6OIpFamrtGW6zoat6cuqgOn0e0PB0M0zdQzJmuAv4kMBnhUrMyqyiDv9/LqOpX X-Orig-IP: 209.85.160.71 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_bp_notspam policy=outbound_bp score=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxlogscore=999 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 clxscore=1015 malwarescore=0 impostorscore=0 bulkscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam authscore=0 authtc=n/a authcc= route=outbound adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.19.0-2505280000 definitions=main-2506200042 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bNmfw1lmFz3myC X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:22843, ipnet:67.231.153.0/24, country:US] --0000000000004ea0ee0637fa6004 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I did end up using KERNBUILDDIR in the makefile, and it seems to do the trick. The KBI was indeed the issue as I confirmed by comparing the structs on gbd prior to rebuilding my module. Thanks! On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 3:21=E2=80=AFPM Konstantin Belousov wrote: > On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 03:03:53PM -0400, Sanchit Sahay wrote: > > > There is something strange in the sentence. First you claim that > > > b_blkno =3D=3D b_lblkno, then you claim thant b_lbkno changes from 0 = to > some > > > random value. > > > > Apologies for the confusing phrasing. What I meant by this is that > > pre-calling VOP_STRATEGY blkno and lblkno are the same (both are 0 in > this > > particular case), which implies there needs to be a bmap call. > > > > > And this smells like an KBI (Kernel Binary Interface) issue, since > > DEBUG_LOCKS > > > changes the layout of the struct lock, which is embedded into struct > buf > > > with which you have problems. > > > > > How do you build your fs code? As a module? If yes, you must use the > same > > > set of opt_*.h headers as used for the kernel build. > > > > I think this might be it, I am building it as a kmod and hadn't taken t= he > > changed struct into account. Will try including these headers. Was > starting > > to see similar behaviour creep up in a different code path as well. > Thanks > > for the help! > > How do you intend to include them? > The right way, if you build your module out of tree, is to do > something like the following: > > make -C SYSDIR=3D KERNBUILDDIR=3D output path> > > i.e. KERNBUILDDIR should point to the directory where config(8) put > the generated files, most important are opt_*.h. > > > > > On Thu, 19 Jun 2025 at 14:42, Konstantin Belousov > > wrote: > > > > > On Tue, Jun 17, 2025 at 11:07:49PM -0400, Sanchit Sahay wrote: > > > > I'm working on porting a filesystem to FreeBSD, and am running into > an > > > > issue that I'm having difficulty debugging. Any help would be > > > appreciated. > > > > > > > > When calling bread() with an blkno=3Dlblkno, by the time the flow o= f > the > > > > control reaches the vop_strategy function, the value of lblkno > changes > > > from > > > > 0 to a seemingly random value. > > > There is something strange in the sentence. First you claim that > > > b_blkno =3D=3D b_lblkno, then you claim thant b_lbkno changes from 0 = to > some > > > random value. > > > > > > So, is it 0 or b_blkno? > > > > > > > > > > > Having inspected this with gdb, > > > > > > > > On frame 9: > > > > > > > > #9 0xffff0000c3e72930 in hfs_strategy () > > > > 1488 kdb_enter("lblk random", "lblk random"); > > > > > > > > *(kgdb) p ap->a_bp->b_lblkno$10 =3D -281474971149872* > > > > > > > > On frame 10: > > > > > > > > #10 0xffff0000009387b0 in VOP_STRATEGY_APV () at vnode_if.c:2423 > > > > 2423 rc =3D vop->vop_strategy(a); > > > > > > > > *(kgdb) p a->a_bp->b_lblkno$11 =3D 0* > > > And the same pattern occurs there. > > > > > > > > > > > This flow is triggered when calling bread() like so: > > > > > > > > retval =3D bread(vp, blockNum, block->blockSize, NOCRED, &bp); > > > > > > > > The stack trace is: > > > > > > > > #9 0xffff0000c3e72930 in hfs_strategy (ap=3D0xffff00009bbd1058) > > > > #10 0xffff0000009387b0 in VOP_STRATEGY_APV ( > > > > #11 0xffff00000054bbcc in VOP_STRATEGY (vp=3D0xffff000000a08fc5, > > > > #12 bufstrategy (bo=3D, bp=3D0xffff0000404990c8) > > > > #13 0xffff00000054d6f0 in bstrategy (bp=3D0xffff0000404990c8) > > > > #14 breadn_flags > > > > > > > > There seems to be no code run between these two stacks, the a_bp in > both > > > > these frames points to the same memory address. No other fields are > > > > modified between these two frames. > > > > > > > > Because of this seemingly random lblkno value, VOP_BMAP is not > triggered, > > > > and the read returns arbitrary results. > > > > > > > > This issue only occurs when I have the kernel compiled with these > > > > additional flags (as suggested by the handbook for debugging > deadlocks): > > > > > > > > options INVARIANTS > > > > options INVARIANT_SUPPORT > > > > options WITNESS > > > > options WITNESS_SKIPSPIN > > > > options DEBUG_LOCKS > > > > options DEBUG_VFS_LOCKS > > > > options DIAGNOSTIC > > > > > > > > Without these flags enabled, this lblkno corruption does not take > place, > > > > and the bread returns a valid read. I don't see any conditional cod= e > that > > > > these flags enable which would cause such an issue. > > > And this smells like an KBI (Kernel Binary Interface) issue, since > > > DEBUG_LOCKS > > > changes the layout of the struct lock, which is embedded into struct > buf > > > with which you have problems. > > > > > > How do you build your fs code? As a module? If yes, you must use the > same > > > set of opt_*.h headers as used for the kernel build. > > > > > > > > > > > Any tips on how to investigate this further would be greatly > appreciated, > > > > or if I am missing something about the lifecycle of the buffer obje= ct > > > that > > > > might cause it to "reset" certain fields. > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > Sanchit Sahay > > > > --0000000000004ea0ee0637fa6004 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I did end up using KERNBUILDDIR=C2=A0in the makefile, and = it seems to do the trick. The KBI was indeed the issue as I confirmed by co= mparing the structs=C2=A0on gbd prior to rebuilding my module. Thanks!=C2= =A0

On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 3:21=E2=80=AFPM Konstantin= Belousov <kostikbel@gmail.com> wrote:
On = Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 03:03:53PM -0400, Sanchit Sahay wrote:
> > There is something strange in the sentence.=C2=A0 First you claim= that
> > b_blkno =3D=3D b_lblkno, then you claim thant b_lbkno changes fro= m 0 to some
> > random value.
>
> Apologies for the confusing phrasing. What I meant by this is that
> pre-calling VOP_STRATEGY blkno and lblkno are the same (both are 0 in = this
> particular case), which implies there needs to be a bmap call.
>
> > And this smells like an KBI (Kernel Binary Interface) issue, sinc= e
> DEBUG_LOCKS
> > changes the layout of the struct lock, which is embedded into str= uct buf
> > with which you have problems.
>
> > How do you build your fs code? As a module?=C2=A0 If yes, you mus= t use the same
> > set of opt_*.h headers as used for the kernel build.
>
> I think this might be it, I am building it as a kmod and hadn't ta= ken the
> changed struct into account. Will try including these headers. Was sta= rting
> to see similar behaviour creep up in a different code path as well. Th= anks
> for the help!

How do you intend to include them?
The right way, if you build your module out of tree, is to do
something like the following:

make -C <module src dir> SYSDIR=3D<kernel sources path> KERNBUI= LDDIR=3D<config output path>

i.e. KERNBUILDDIR should point to the directory where config(8) put
the generated files, most important are opt_*.h.

>
> On Thu, 19 Jun 2025 at 14:42, Konstantin Belousov <kostikbel@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Jun 17, 2025 at 11:07:49PM -0400, Sanchit Sahay wrote: > > > I'm working on porting a filesystem to FreeBSD, and am r= unning into an
> > > issue that I'm having difficulty debugging. Any help wou= ld be
> > appreciated.
> > >
> > > When calling bread() with an blkno=3Dlblkno, by the time the= flow of the
> > > control reaches the vop_strategy function, the value of lblk= no changes
> > from
> > > 0 to a seemingly random value.
> > There is something strange in the sentence.=C2=A0 First you claim= that
> > b_blkno =3D=3D b_lblkno, then you claim thant b_lbkno changes fro= m 0 to some
> > random value.
> >
> > So, is it 0 or b_blkno?
> >
> > >
> > > Having inspected this with gdb,
> > >
> > > On frame 9:
> > >
> > > #9=C2=A0 0xffff0000c3e72930 in hfs_strategy ()
> > > 1488=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 kdb_enter(&quo= t;lblk random", "lblk random");
> > >
> > > *(kgdb) p ap->a_bp->b_lblkno$10 =3D -281474971149872*<= br> > > >
> > > On frame 10:
> > >
> > > #10 0xffff0000009387b0 in VOP_STRATEGY_APV () at vnode_if.c:= 2423
> > > 2423=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 rc =3D vop->vop_strategy(a);
> > >
> > > *(kgdb) p a->a_bp->b_lblkno$11 =3D 0*
> > And the same pattern occurs there.
> >
> > >
> > > This flow is triggered when calling bread() like so:
> > >
> > > retval =3D bread(vp, blockNum, block->blockSize, NOCRED, = &bp);
> > >
> > > The stack trace is:
> > >
> > > #9=C2=A0 0xffff0000c3e72930 in hfs_strategy (ap=3D0xffff0000= 9bbd1058)
> > > #10 0xffff0000009387b0 in VOP_STRATEGY_APV (
> > > #11 0xffff00000054bbcc in VOP_STRATEGY (vp=3D0xffff000000a08= fc5,
> > > #12 bufstrategy (bo=3D<optimized out>, bp=3D0xffff0000= 404990c8)
> > > #13 0xffff00000054d6f0 in bstrategy (bp=3D0xffff0000404990c8= )
> > > #14 breadn_flags
> > >
> > > There seems to be no code run between these two stacks, the = a_bp in both
> > > these frames points to the same memory address. No other fie= lds are
> > > modified between these two frames.
> > >
> > > Because of this seemingly random lblkno value, VOP_BMAP is n= ot triggered,
> > > and the read returns arbitrary results.
> > >
> > > This issue only occurs when I have the kernel compiled with = these
> > > additional flags (as suggested by the handbook for debugging= deadlocks):
> > >
> > > options INVARIANTS
> > > options INVARIANT_SUPPORT
> > > options WITNESS
> > > options WITNESS_SKIPSPIN
> > > options DEBUG_LOCKS
> > > options DEBUG_VFS_LOCKS
> > > options DIAGNOSTIC
> > >
> > > Without these flags enabled, this lblkno corruption does not= take place,
> > > and the bread returns a valid read. I don't see any cond= itional code that
> > > these flags enable which would cause such an issue.
> > And this smells like an KBI (Kernel Binary Interface) issue, sinc= e
> > DEBUG_LOCKS
> > changes the layout of the struct lock, which is embedded into str= uct buf
> > with which you have problems.
> >
> > How do you build your fs code? As a module?=C2=A0 If yes, you mus= t use the same
> > set of opt_*.h headers as used for the kernel build.
> >
> > >
> > > Any tips on how to investigate this further would be greatly= appreciated,
> > > or if I am missing something about the lifecycle of the buff= er object
> > that
> > > might cause it to "reset" certain fields.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Sanchit Sahay
> >
--0000000000004ea0ee0637fa6004-- From nobody Fri Jun 20 08:52:07 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bNrp94XKFz5ylLP for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2025 08:52:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-hackers-freebsd-org952@ketas.si.pri.ee) Received: from mail.ketas.si.pri.ee (d004-fea2-0bff-021e-13e8-8437-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee [IPv6:2001:7d0:8437:13e8:21e:bff:fea2:d004]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bNrp8213mz3py6 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2025 08:52:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-hackers-freebsd-org952@ketas.si.pri.ee) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=ketas.si.pri.ee header.s=ketas-si-pri-ee-20240416002854-4096 header.b=R0nTy2FJ; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd-hackers-freebsd-org952@ketas.si.pri.ee designates 2001:7d0:8437:13e8:21e:bff:fea2:d004 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd-hackers-freebsd-org952@ketas.si.pri.ee; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=ketas.si.pri.ee X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=ketas.si.pri.ee; s=ketas-si-pri-ee-20240416002854-4096; t=1750409530; bh=76AogMxhrl/4r9o8rNoH4tR7bmqzozYFxY4JHbG4jos=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=R0nTy2FJqzj0IxBGHDY4oZjOwud8jhqCfeN9PsBHzoiXO1uUGOFJAD6wAAzx9S2Q9 RJzWg2xH3+LhDLNE3fcJxK4osD3EpJI+7PtLkPABE2ZGvpAPDqx3yUtcD+x51Wkack ecEePxYIacqXuM6fDzHy9UFiXWB6Op52/Pev2JQoQUU8LpATlsUvE+Fav3tqSZpNWN +slYvIlR5DBmF8B5VhRH794VZ9nwivkJYCn7KpNI/rkhwjHqQ/yV5TnN0rjLCBTOZq fmVqjoshMAX2wyamPTLf8Trte4+5EePzS9vzBOJvhKrg2uUDn5B4hGaxJN0vHD2cl7 k0r0zAWQ46Cowh4zrqsHQHfhpdKjaUvjyQpJVUGLWuRkfNzHxGQesn1r/rzYJvrx8J 23PxwE86zUCzaJhKYeZ0+v3hKj0IpIooa4qNFUt7WceC5v+mHkpxpfch3hdEzKSGvU jFL2BLy6oSwurzn5zt4H2Am6h9vjqYU4HtrYU/2QOjcAJyGVKtBcx1+y0Eiqe2taMQ wtYPQVkpGpuwWnOFW4ys+vN+D9Lg+ob9qtA1sFYfQLuOXBXcxgz/FsZdp4lecFj+w1 AAFE4eAAZyafMurlMSkw2MHrM906r6NOxU4aGZdXseQM4CEjjb9BYgdUkGC3R+A+9e XkrJj/jgjG5g4JkrzY3wF8g0= Received: from [IPv6:::1] (0114-0000-0000-0000-13c8-8437-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee [IPv6:2001:7d0:8437:13c8::114]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail.ketas.si.pri.ee (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BE94E5ADF46 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2025 11:52:09 +0300 (EEST) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2025 11:52:07 +0300 From: Sulev-Madis Silber To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Thought experiment] Bringing swift into an experimental branch? User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: <1A6E4DCB-20C0-42D7-B06F-8427D49BD6BA@gmail.com> References: <7344B44E-0AED-44CA-903D-B8DFC2D56311@gmail.com> <20250617013743.3b5108f0@rimwks.local> <7ced7b14-0508-42f0-b432-0c609a6245a7@gmail.com> <20250617221134.616f464f@rimwks.local> <1A6E4DCB-20C0-42D7-B06F-8427D49BD6BA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <02D52B5F-1C60-4E34-94C8-5A6EB4D1E4EC@ketas.si.pri.ee> List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.49 / 15.00]; HFILTER_HOSTNAME_5(3.00)[d004-fea2-0bff-021e-13e8-8437-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.96)[-0.956]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.92)[-0.921]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.84)[-0.836]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[ketas.si.pri.ee,reject]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[ketas.si.pri.ee:s=ketas-si-pri-ee-20240416002854-4096]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.20)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2001:7d0:8437:1300::/56]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:3249, ipnet:2001:7d0::/32, country:EE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[ketas.si.pri.ee:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bNrp8213mz3py6 X-Spamd-Bar: / what problem are we solving here? people write code=2E fix the code if bug = is found=2E work around it with redundancy=2E avionics hw/sw dev is good ex= ample how=2E if that level is needed i'm not buying the don't insure the c code either=2E i mean i don't write = that=2E but i have like concepts how buffer overflows work=2E maybe just do= n't do that? unsure if language should attempt to think for yourself and ha= ndcuff the coder=2E or attempt to also trump doesn't do anything good to anything, so attempts to do sw dev = in methods like piss everyone off, smash everything, perhaps build a new ho= use eventually, meanwhile sleep under a tree doesn't work also i've been here for like since 1999=2E languages woozh past like crazy= , people hopping on and off=2E and then there's a c=2E why do we still use = c? also what's fun is that even with those "safe" languages, there's still wa= y to bust that also, does anyone recall the still ongoing huge mess of having libxo in ba= se that was supposedly really good idea whole import language is like trying to argue with people who keep telling= you that "brawndo's got what plants crave, brawndo has electrolytes" witho= ut even knowing what they say btw, yes, you can argue that maybe we need better code=2E now that code ru= ns everything=2E like regulations, etc, like civil engineering=2E "certifie= d" engineers, etc=2E but this isn't the way to fix it either=2E btw they st= ill make a mistakes it's all people making mistakes=2E the point where people stop making mist= akes is called technological singularity=2E and i bet then the mistakes wil= l be still made, just by computers until then, maybe we could just take all this effort to just fix existing = code also, what about other things like aslr that also help and sound much bett= er idea, are easier to do and we already have that anyway what's the actual issue here anyway=2E and, yes anyone can take a c= ode=2E it's called a forking and it often happens=2E new fork can either gi= ve ideas back, die off, continue separately, replace original, and so on=2E= no need to piss people in original project off=2E you have full source=2E = the bsd license pretty much gives you full freedom=2E just requires you to = tell where it came from=2E i bet telling that is not an issue if you just w= ant to port it from c to any popular language=2E it seems like noone here w= ants it=2E and it's ok=2E just like i plan to probably keep on using fbsd o= n some 32bit i386 or armv7 should that time come=2E people do it now for mi= ps=2E it's always option to take code and walk off=2E i almost never want t= o piss into someone else's cup=2E just have own cup=2E iirc ianal but i don= 't think one even need permission to fork fbsd=2E this is not a war over so= me territory=2E do not fight for getting swift into fbsd=2E just make a wit= bsd or so! 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ARC_ALLOW(-1.00)[microsoft.com:s=arcselector10001:i=1]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.93)[-0.935]; R_MIXED_CHARSET(0.91)[subject]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[advens.fr,quarantine]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:40.107.0.0/16]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[advens.fr:s=selector2]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8075, ipnet:40.104.0.0/14, country:US]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[40.107.160.105:from]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_ALL(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[40.107.160.105:from]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[advens.fr:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bNy6J61M0z3DsL X-Spamd-Bar: ---- --_000_PAYP264MB351822F6E68D313174A1C0F3FD7CAPAYP264MB3518FRAP_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all, I am working on a system (15-current) that requires interaction with a CAN = network. So far, I have developped a driver for my controller, able to send and rece= ive CAN frames to and from connected devices. I=92d like to implement a FreeBSD-native CAN network stack that is API-comp= atible with Linux=92s Netlink CAN (netcan). This would allow us to recompile and use existing Linux userland tools with= minimal changes. If you believe this development could benefit the community, I would be hap= py to submit a set of patches (driver + netcan support). We=92re considering defining a new Protocol Family, AF_CAN, for this purpos= e. Would it be acceptable to use the first available =AB AF_VENDORXX =BB from = sys/socket.h ? I would appreciate your thoughts, advice, and any recommendations you may h= ave on this matter. -- J=E9r=E9mie --_000_PAYP264MB351822F6E68D313174A1C0F3FD7CAPAYP264MB3518FRAP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= Hello all,

=  

= I am working on a system (15-current) that requires interaction with a CAN = network.

= So far, I have developped a driver for my controller, able to send and rece= ive CAN frames to and from connected devices.

=  

= I=92d like to implement a FreeBSD-native CAN network stack that i= s API-compatible with Linux=92s Netlink CAN (netcan).

= This would allow us to recompile and use existing Linux userland tools with= minimal changes.

=  

= If you believe this development could benefit the community, I would be hap= py to submit a set of patches (driver + netcan support).<= /p>

=  

= We=92re considering defining a new Protocol Family, AF_CAN, for this purpos= e.

= Would it be acceptable to use the first available =AB AF_VENDORXX = ;=BB from sys/socket.h ?

=  

= I would appreciate your thoughts, advice, and any recommendations you may h= ave on this matter.

=  

= -- J=E9r=E9mie

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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID d7c1714c8cb5f728c398f4ec3a06ba8f; Fri, 20 Jun 2025 15:16:15 +0000 (UTC) From: Mark Millard Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.600.51.1.1\)) Subject: RPi5 context: How to report to EDK2 developer why FreeBSD gets 'nvme0: unable to allocate MSI-X' (and for MSI too) Message-Id: <0AC74C10-D33F-4753-AB96-9AF800B4330E@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2025 08:16:04 -0700 To: freebsd-hackers , FreeBSD ARM List X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.600.51.1.1) References: <0AC74C10-D33F-4753-AB96-9AF800B4330E.ref@yahoo.com> X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.50 / 15.00]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(1.00)[1.000]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.99)[0.994]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.990]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com:dkim]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36647, ipnet:98.137.64.0/20, country:US]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[98.137.65.82:from]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[98.137.65.82:from]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bP1K25rXFz4FD8 X-Spamd-Bar: / My EDK2 ACPI based RPi5 experiments got: nvme0: System interrupt issues? which lead to discovering both: nvme0: unable to allocate MSI-X nvme0: unable to allocate MSI and: pcib0: slot 0 INTA hardwired to IRQ 251 pcib1: slot 0 INTA is routed to irq 13 More boot verbose detail: pcib1: at device 0.0 on pci0 pcib1: domain 1 pcib1: secondary bus 1 pcib1: subordinate bus 1 pcib1: memory decode 0xc0000000-0xc00fffff pci1: on pcib1 pcib1: allocated bus range (1-1) for rid 0 of pci1 pci1: domain=3D1, physical bus=3D1 found-> vendor=3D0x10ec, dev=3D0x5765, revid=3D0x01 domain=3D1, bus=3D1, slot=3D0, func=3D0 class=3D01-08-02, hdrtype=3D0x00, mfdev=3D0 cmdreg=3D0x0006, statreg=3D0x0010, cachelnsz=3D0 (dwords) lattimer=3D0x00 (0 ns), mingnt=3D0x00 (0 ns), maxlat=3D0x00 (0 = ns) intpin=3Da, irq=3D255 powerspec 3 supports D0 D3 current D0 MSI supports 8 messages, 64 bit MSI-X supports 9 messages in map 0x10 map[10]: type Memory, range 64, base 0xc0000000, size 14, = enabled pcib1: allocated memory range (0xc0000000-0xc0003fff) for rid 10 of = pci1:1:0:0 map[24]: type Memory, range 32, base 0xc0004000, size 13, = enabled pcib1: allocated memory range (0xc0004000-0xc0005fff) for rid 24 of = pci1:1:0:0 nvme0: mem = 0xc0000000-0xc0003fff,0xc0004000-0xc0005fff at device 0.0 on pci1 nvme0: attempting to allocate 5 MSI-X vectors (9 supported) nvme0: unable to allocate MSI-X nvme0: attempting to allocate 2 MSI vectors (8 supported) nvme0: unable to allocate MSI pcib0: matched entry for 0.0.INTA pcib0: slot 0 INTA hardwired to IRQ 251 pcib1: slot 0 INTA is routed to irq 13 nvme0: CapLo: 0x280103ff: MQES 1023, CQR, TO 40 nvme0: CapHi: 0x00000020: DSTRD 0, CSS pcib0: slot 0 INTA hardwired to = IRQ 251 pcib1: slot 0 INTA is routed to irq 13, CPS 0, MPSMIN 0, MPSMAX 0 nvme0: Version: 0x00010400: 1.4 Not being familiar with the area, I'm wondering how to collect the information to report to the EDK2 developer for why the 'unable to allocate MSI-X' and 'unable to allocate MSI' happened (from the FreeBSD's kernel point of view). =3D=3D=3D Mark Millard marklmi at yahoo.com From nobody Fri Jun 20 15:20:33 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bP1QD0spBz5y9Cs for ; 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Fri, 20 Jun 2025 08:28:57 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: =?UTF-8?B?0K/RgNC+0YHQu9Cw0LIg0JzQsNGI0LrQvg==?= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2025 18:28:45 +0300 X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFvOIM3rYDBHLidEP_-FuRsSxWShJVQ0U8V0bGSmulhWJdJUMz9DaTSF9YQ Message-ID: Subject: Re: FreeBSD-native CAN Stack and AF_CAN Protocol Family To: =?UTF-8?B?SsOpcsOpbWllIEpPVVJESU4=?= Cc: "freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004af53c063802853f" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bP1bg72xHz4MCF X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] --0000000000004af53c063802853f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, What devices(the setup) do you have? I use FreeBSD regulary and always wanted to start programming some microcontrollers with it. Can i know your configuration. Have to start somewhere, maybe I can copy your config. BR Yaro =D0=BF=D1=82, 20 =D0=B8=D1=8E=D0=BD. 2025 =D0=B3., 15:52 J=C3=A9r=C3=A9mie = JOURDIN : > Hello all, > > > > I am working on a system (15-current) that requires interaction with a CA= N > network. > > So far, I have developped a driver for my controller, able to send and > receive CAN frames to and from connected devices. > > > > I=E2=80=99d like to implement a FreeBSD-native CAN network stack that > is API-compatible with Linux=E2=80=99s Netlink CAN (netcan). > > This would allow us to recompile and use existing Linux userland tools > with minimal changes. > > > > If you believe this development could benefit the community, I would be > happy to submit a set of patches (driver + netcan support). > > > > We=E2=80=99re considering defining a new Protocol Family, AF_CAN, for thi= s purpose. > > Would it be acceptable to use the first available =C2=AB AF_VENDORXX =C2= =BB from > sys/socket.h ? > > > > I would appreciate your thoughts, advice, and any recommendations you may > have on this matter. > > > > -- J=C3=A9r=C3=A9mie > --0000000000004af53c063802853f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello,

What devices(the setup) do you have? I use FreeBSD regulary and alway= s wanted to start programming some microcontrollers with it. Can i know you= r configuration. Have to start somewhere, maybe I can copy your config.

BR

Yaro

=D0=BF=D1=82, 20 =D0=B8=D1=8E= =D0=BD. 2025 =D0=B3., 15:52 J=C3=A9r=C3=A9mie JOURDIN <jeremie.jourdin@advens.fr>:

= Hello all,

= =C2=A0

= I am working on a system (15-current) that requires interaction with a CAN = network.

= So far, I have developped a driver for my controller, able to send and rece= ive CAN frames to and from connected devices.

= =C2=A0

= I=E2=80=99d like to implement a=C2=A0FreeBSD-native=C2=A0CAN network stack = that is=C2=A0API-compatible=C2=A0with Linux=E2=80=99s Netlink CAN (netcan).

= This would allow us to recompile and use existing Linux userland tools with= minimal changes.

= =C2=A0

= If you believe this development could benefit the community, I would be hap= py to submit a set of patches (driver + netcan support).

= =C2=A0

= We=E2=80=99re considering defining a new Protocol Family, AF_CAN, for this = purpose.

= Would it be acceptable to use the first available =C2=AB=C2=A0AF_VENDORXX= =C2=A0=C2=BB from sys/socket.h=C2=A0?

= =C2=A0

= I would appreciate your thoughts, advice, and any recommendations you may h= ave on this matter.

= =C2=A0

= -- J=C3=A9r=C3=A9mie

--0000000000004af53c063802853f-- From nobody Fri Jun 20 15:53:05 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bP27h0yXdz5yCWs for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2025 15:53:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-pg1-x52f.google.com (mail-pg1-x52f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bP27g5x0Bz3Lbt for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2025 15:53:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-pg1-x52f.google.com with SMTP id 41be03b00d2f7-b31cd61b2a9so1423172a12.3 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2025 08:53:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1750434797; x=1751039597; darn=freebsd.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=amCp5kzRH8WjZ4YvcbGzAubz2q4WyjzHHarPnQRSiTw=; b=28TETeQXHZhaC9ROA5SRg9oggdNzznYeFwt6RNR3FpoD3DACU9aLs5VvZseAjCRQf9 Ky5OHTInha5MkZ7w+T3hKpoO79hCf3TpQyolQuBhD+vGxMGVv/Ft025OkGWUefs5nXPI JaDgv63gjvrRuLbNAC2sjRDMsC/ZRn800ffQiVRQER0+6VQALJMEPvtn4pEBAI8pum6K wA2diJXw/QPo1w4yvOAsq/RMofkUxTpx0DyjB5OHK7pongBH4NEI9EKlkT+H7iHNy6Ho YyhxJN1ZsgAIxq7FDRcqb3jEBRruFTzZyY/5x3Rs2VppyhgBzyiwsMqjtEI13PGKNy/w j2WQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1750434797; x=1751039597; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=amCp5kzRH8WjZ4YvcbGzAubz2q4WyjzHHarPnQRSiTw=; b=NDcTr8N+1QaK3fy1vwyzSWprAfylQOV2/CUYwzIjvTwvnHevJ4j15fwEkoz1+MbHUw fYAVF/nlRc94EXbiwonhh7G6l/NDLL56EfGK5S5K7WsF7mzkFtsDJoEqLU3X6+1/EPwd wF8oWnuPpjqfHyRZvo0QcOitI4im3YqbUwwv+YF78sPQm7tIhgsO4842zj8A1wqwVQTE F5IG6LlVj/0qx0mincWcSMt7VCEn4bqLJs3422RL/V2loJioEFegwxR9RKjqWa95pWFm IdxQU5QjExPh4Ykx9PtsDKKvB9WpuAXl7ZkY8ryviCu7YeF4kmCWsJFjbXZhGM/r3egV 6OMQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Ywb5ZJik+dwTNnU+8j8JYq0PhfskYGV0PckOnXJJy0nEKGYVuOc HHI9taZ+Ki+AvP1M+oMBhyOr8EkWiOsRX4qR5OrtZWFR/4pk+ZcnzcXpr3pb4tR/5W3FA7MDecy iUGshUaXurrRdf0KWm+KInu+GmoNj6BfGMhzjaOWqHyaVoh+rEHe6S/4= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncsSysf2YrKN4SMDV1h7vViWHY2/OI/DyjW/lkqGaUvc1cpaRq4gWF3xTzu94B5 U8s6wbJHhZHH4Pkdq35RDjhwJjrCmsaNCkNh8+R3JCJyZcYkojMW7lCzNKkpPAOmpumekmwAA1D WDtVdKA1TNL9h3qz/qceYFtz8zxFp7517iWt/0+ALQSIs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEU9aii7zTVDaw8t6RF2Xsld6kMBKQ2E/ApCO3VOPqB/iQALZmzqOfUDVyZaA3Cn6xpoxZMoWrc7HmVdDxq4Do= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:3e48:b0:311:c939:c851 with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-3159d62c2d7mr5552861a91.4.1750434796793; Fri, 20 Jun 2025 08:53:16 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2025 09:53:05 -0600 X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFuA53NUgmJcOeW_DLZTCOeuOfF_N3NkOgPI1mDD4QqyLSid21A73BcnxV4 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FreeBSD-native CAN Stack and AF_CAN Protocol Family To: =?UTF-8?B?SsOpcsOpbWllIEpPVVJESU4=?= Cc: "freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bP27g5x0Bz3Lbt X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] On Fri, Jun 20, 2025 at 6:52=E2=80=AFAM J=C3=A9r=C3=A9mie JOURDIN wrote: > > Hello all, > > > > I am working on a system (15-current) that requires interaction with a CA= N network. > > So far, I have developped a driver for my controller, able to send and re= ceive CAN frames to and from connected devices. > > > > I=E2=80=99d like to implement a FreeBSD-native CAN network stack that is = API-compatible with Linux=E2=80=99s Netlink CAN (netcan). > > This would allow us to recompile and use existing Linux userland tools wi= th minimal changes. > > > > If you believe this development could benefit the community, I would be h= appy to submit a set of patches (driver + netcan support). > > > > We=E2=80=99re considering defining a new Protocol Family, AF_CAN, for thi= s purpose. > > Would it be acceptable to use the first available =C2=AB AF_VENDORXX =C2= =BB from sys/socket.h ? I think there's a nuance here. Even AF_xxx values are in the base system, while odd values are for vendors. If you don't care about the final value, and accept it will change, you can use #define AF_CAN AF_VENDOR00 until we're closer to committing to the tree, and change it to something like 48 or 50. That's what I'd recommend: it breaks ABI compat for you, which for most people won't be a problem. If it is a problem, the best we can do is to move up when we, the FreeBSD project, allocate the value. But let's hope we can defer that until the software has been written and is entering a public test and review phase. That help the project balance between just handing them out, leading to table with lots of blank entries that can never be reclaimed which can be hard on cache lines, vs waiting too long and having people need to have the odd value, or risking a collision with changes super late in deployment. As for CAN, I love the idea. I started porting the Linux CANBUS code since it was, years ago, dual licensed. But I'm now 20 years beyond that, give or take, and have no gear or need for it... Warner > > > > I would appreciate your thoughts, advice, and any recommendations you may= have on this matter. > > > > -- J=C3=A9r=C3=A9mie From nobody Fri Jun 20 18:28:47 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bP5bM70djz5yNXL for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2025 18:29:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-yw1-x1134.google.com (mail-yw1-x1134.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1134]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bP5bM34tXz3lw1 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2025 18:29:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-yw1-x1134.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-70f147b5a52so16950747b3.3 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2025 11:29:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; t=1750444137; x=1751048937; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=S8R/5wtDo1hDuv3oKXV9KoQga4e2TGR6ZQASeoMa3LA=; b=LI8L33U9uNICVhIhuFq2b9CJG/SeNmGZ9b84/DEYQjb4p9aVaL7ECBsqcTyYESFv/a hV+nXZRerkh8/QFHumP3X2GFwhBySP8gux8r1EgbGonMOXGP7zUQqL82N/Bj2aB8FJZ9 N11uOk6zJhRZI4DRkfYofmnw+B8h6Qg+pMmbngMbS3vij/pI5wM95g0lbrBWLE9m2iri JmrKdqCGAqPGVHfhFlvInSn+oXIOwiKLtwTiYiOjAneY+3ocPuxYKWRMn0gmqqcUhCdZ 4PU4ImGACv6x3UYDZ0O27xkj4PX8M5NyAklcJ0Q3dZA91UUjqdlN7lMvgUnnND64J2l4 HCYA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1750444137; x=1751048937; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=S8R/5wtDo1hDuv3oKXV9KoQga4e2TGR6ZQASeoMa3LA=; b=a9lUiHXudCqE6tTUbmC0yZi6G9pE00qcRY4sTYosOXrJTedbpYwhNsSdffu3wr76wb LMJBkWmJHqv85/s0t5l5JwSRJvhOInofzPESc4q4I5eaXkLkHU6zLQl1z+g8OCG1mRax w2apv9JqNqjZH23fVCvhQKjctWKKF4YHuzSYRi/ZJZ1mPtQQJsPz0PA67Emwpn1r8N65 +59HtnYunNbknalQCqGz/IHQh42RqaM4u17cncTfjqDiC8VcjqFeR1YooKt6Q/tOP8SS LRccfGqAWF0PCjH/6L2TZn5NOJgpuNIwr+twClmss35VgFmRh5T45yLPy2Oiv7LYlXnB 8+Sw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzZwPlcjyUekdpjm1g4D1WXr5gXUSj6IZqs/cFfMLWu9SmiGQea 3hMy4lWuJfZLSoEnh92hVBnLtCDnmHIeAF8gzbptQahPW/Om/awf1XLVGXc7nldvB6Roxc1cShi l+40= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncsXFWAd5CvQeU7y0LgynlzYGhWAyuFiugCrDvbr0JD1KPLqTeGHr7I72cgYbQv P7/1T1pdBDPDOcv+NyhY7ghdgVLLK71yo62IWL+cri61uLwbWcUrlZGyOgX0cUu2/UQGbxTQkzm ijpckj408QPgtzWziYHnCXcLd4mT2QLygoyjaA+FSPIppV3DSKpCVZ6Hi40SKEI2FDRjtGgrSe8 Eg8yEl8cwJqya2Ju6Y5O2RzxHbQNjE5jiqnr85Wiyx2tYlN2XpfOgRyDe+cR0+SEi69+8E6+rDf usA8lpOrVbIaliP66JxjrGLkfI80Bp8Ht9mcAUFAzwzQn4+psvgnlXTwSNH9i6Tik1ZJTsoeqPa MS1Em612IKmWG3eDjTUbPG2wJwdFAxMCl6Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGq9TOBpfUvHaZzDgbOJRWBUQeicoSIsT+YuCLUdamh/5viw72OvVW2KsvqLgrmlmXvSprC3g== X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:86:b0:70f:9fcd:2075 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-712c6389736mr60649067b3.3.1750444137180; Fri, 20 Jun 2025 11:28:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw1-f175.google.com (mail-yw1-f175.google.com. [209.85.128.175]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 00721157ae682-712c4b96930sm5189397b3.59.2025.06.20.11.28.56 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 20 Jun 2025 11:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw1-f175.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-70f862dbeaeso21196917b3.1 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 2025 11:28:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:a082:10b0:70d:ed41:f979 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-712c6389affmr38176617b3.1.1750444136259; Fri, 20 Jun 2025 11:28:56 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Tomek CEDRO Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2025 20:28:47 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFukECczGNBVMBoLH15kwnoiIOm5X4MvdFjkuUGDxNsalXqp87g8Ic-gEDs Message-ID: Subject: Re: FreeBSD-native CAN Stack and AF_CAN Protocol Family To: =?UTF-8?B?SsOpcsOpbWllIEpPVVJESU4=?= Cc: "freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f0e79c06380508ff" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bP5bM34tXz3lw1 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] --000000000000f0e79c06380508ff Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jun 20, 2025, 14:52 J=C3=A9r=C3=A9mie JOURDIN wrote: > Hello all, > > I am working on a system (15-current) that requires interaction with a CA= N > network. > > So far, I have developped a driver for my controller, able to send and > receive CAN frames to and from connected devices. > > I=E2=80=99d like to implement a FreeBSD-native CAN network stack that > is API-compatible with Linux=E2=80=99s Netlink CAN (netcan). > > This would allow us to recompile and use existing Linux userland tools > with minimal changes. > > If you believe this development could benefit the community, I would be > happy to submit a set of patches (driver + netcan support). > > We=E2=80=99re considering defining a new Protocol Family, AF_CAN, for thi= s purpose. > > Would it be acceptable to use the first available =C2=AB AF_VENDORXX =C2= =BB from > sys/socket.h ? > > I would appreciate your thoughts, advice, and any recommendations you may > have on this matter. > > -- J=C3=A9r=C3=A9mie > Hello Jeremie, sounds great! :-) Would that work with simple USB-UART-CAN adapters? :-) -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info > --000000000000f0e79c06380508ff Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


= On Fri, Jun 20, 2025, 14:52 J=C3=A9r=C3=A9mie JOURDIN <jeremie.jourdin@advens.fr> wrote:

= Hello all,

= I am working on a system (15-current) that requires interaction with a CAN = network.

= So far, I have developped a driver for my controller, able to send and rece= ive CAN frames to and from connected devices.

= I=E2=80=99d like to implement a=C2=A0FreeBSD-native=C2=A0CAN network stack = that is=C2=A0API-compatible=C2=A0with Linux=E2=80=99s Netlink CAN (netcan).

= This would allow us to recompile and use existing Linux userland tools with= minimal changes.

= If you believe this development could benefit the community, I would be hap= py to submit a set of patches (driver + netcan support).

= We=E2=80=99re considering defining a new Protocol Family, AF_CAN, for this = purpose.

= Would it be acceptable to use the first available =C2=AB=C2=A0AF_VENDORXX= =C2=A0=C2=BB from sys/socket.h=C2=A0?

= I would appreciate your thoughts, advice, and any recommendations you may h= ave on this matter.

= -- J=C3=A9r=C3=A9mie


Hello Jeremie, sounds great! :-) Would tha= t work with simple USB-UART-CAN adapters? :-)

=

--000000000000f0e79c06380508ff-- From nobody Sat Jun 21 10:35:54 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bPW386Ppyz5yLw0 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2025 10:36:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) Received: from soth.netfence.it (mailserver.netfence.it [78.134.96.152]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mailserver.netfence.it", Issuer "R10" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bPW371gZzz3chp for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2025 10:36:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ml@netfence.it designates 78.134.96.152 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ml@netfence.it; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=netfence.it Received: from [10.1.2.18] (alamar.local.netfence.it [10.1.2.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by soth.netfence.it (8.18.1/8.17.2) with ESMTPSA id 55LAZsYj049241 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2025 12:35:54 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) X-Authentication-Warning: soth.netfence.it: Host alamar.local.netfence.it [10.1.2.18] claimed to be [10.1.2.18] Message-ID: <93af2409-bd66-47ca-bb75-99d96c6f71c4@netfence.it> Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2025 12:35:54 +0200 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: REALLY SLOW chromium compilation Content-Language: en-US To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: From: Andrea Venturoli In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.20 / 15.00]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[0.997]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.993]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.99)[0.993]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[netfence.it,none]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:78.134.96.152]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:35612, ipnet:78.134.0.0/17, country:IT]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bPW371gZzz3chp X-Spamd-Bar: / On 6/20/25 17:20, George Mitchell wrote: > Is anyone else encountering this as well?  Thanks!           -- George Yes. Running poudriere for a couple of versions of FreeBSD. Chromium is continually updated even in quarterly (obvious, since it seems to breed vulnerabilities). Each Poudriere run now takes around 48h. Don't have any solution though :( bye av. From nobody Sat Jun 21 10:51:01 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bPWNS2KgQz5yN32 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2025 10:51:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from truckman@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bPWNR4Zgjz3hyd; Sat, 21 Jun 2025 10:51:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from truckman@FreeBSD.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1750503063; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=Qg/Ye7k+PLjQhyk1rssg1SDZ7uZ+TzbRdQJGy5Jb+B8=; b=UxUarQ5fZGDiUavCAVnBPgIf896eKA4jckzkb8CuV/RUHUr2AATBsoCgzZfY3Uj2+PVdan 6avlwJYwsG4dTWnirFZ4k4WOx/HAV+1FuDxyorNjVxjQuIwLkkeO4AQTDvxiXCzI9AX1zK Ad9x+pN2Z6pdQFbf4jr/oEyHBXFbi3ZtO0K9wyQrV6MTzZ9j3+vJnSTiUHwpDS9fyPwhBO nomy97xQ8V56B+kLlcjIlXa/AB8TAL9G6u1dDW/iCRmuoDLWVWJGq9VKREEv2nL16ZUSh0 j2JNXgVmJVY33gL2Xq53bUIPF70dteZ0H/a+SAwJvgma1JmRy3T3zB0Ih1lGzA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1750503063; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=Qg/Ye7k+PLjQhyk1rssg1SDZ7uZ+TzbRdQJGy5Jb+B8=; b=wVHmvSYuCK9UcxZQQzW8YoQTtOFuelBebZx/GZout0nVFMnJfUI/DpYw2hekB+n1sbXZMy q78SgV5nuCLbDFofgu/LIIMEhsv9SWGX9sXzIiBNwKSYVSyJYCVGog0VTMTJIf3ldBTKfP n5TngvcLmZIVbvp7KeYGS5w4HMnThSXfILvH8PuUljRH6sX67XANYMoCfAdy2SeELSnKTL XZjUt91jb704w+WNoWj61W7e/aWwdmlJ3svgKRIWaumiBndUI3gSSekhT6+decl45i/Jdr NeK9q1bbUIvGjhkAsSgVUgBxrpATSz4yDJyc7DMOlXpgtoT4md+Za8Wi93bTkQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1750503063; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=iC0bOfeexwrfM54wtLoIEsiFaj9lRjGB+HoWJLzO3m/egiKJzW9FacvjhSPIBS6rfG+use yRp249psqi3WbEKQX7Aw05Bb1Q4ItgLfPly2cyoIct2WHRz9upLFA32bAInOZNZyvBh0+2 8Vo1Cbwk9kImzN/0+mauIt6jkt/LaTVntDEr5N/v1ncH6IihMIFFGyvG7uOo6iEoTR/8yz oHgfYgyP8d3qkyQvcAtSikCyAkdUHv5uWbxHmY1a4WV+lhnpk0O4ATHDZYKy6mytkcLKY6 OxV3RCOs4VMVCFdcBS8ftYN/Luhw3QX4///J/GuURTU/MxbQdoeJ26d47boznQ== Received: from mousie.catspoiler.org (unknown [76.212.85.177]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: truckman) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4bPWNR0wQDz149Q; Sat, 21 Jun 2025 10:51:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from truckman@FreeBSD.org) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2025 03:51:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Lewis Subject: Re: REALLY SLOW chromium compilation To: George Mitchell cc: FreeBSD Hackers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-Disposition: INLINE On 20 Jun, George Mitchell wrote: > Compiling www/chromium has never been a fast operation, but a couple of > months ago on my AMD Ryzen 5 2600X, it took a mere 16 to 18 hours to > compile, and the last couple of times it has been taking over two days! > I've been running 14.2-RELEASE since the end of January, and I believe > chromium started using llvm-19 to compile last December. I can't think > of any other aspect of my system that changed more recently than that, > but I could be wrong. > > Is anyone else encountering this as well? Thanks! -- George On my CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 1700X Eight-Core Processor (3393.86-MHz K8-class CPU) with 64 GB of RAM and using tmpfs, running -CURRENT with a GENERIC kernel, and the usual -CURRENT debug stuff, a 16-way parallel build of chromium with no competition takes about 7.5 hours. From nobody Sat Jun 21 12:24:04 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bPYRs4mc7z5yT1t for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2025 12:24:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@sysctl.cz) Received: from wes1-so1.wedos.net (w-smtp-out-2.wedos.net [46.28.105.98]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bPYRr16gTz3Tjy for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2025 12:24:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@sysctl.cz) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=shared.dkim-wes1.wedos.net header.s=bravo header.b=obLXhWfI; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@sysctl.cz has no SPF policy when checking 46.28.105.98) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@sysctl.cz; dmarc=none Received: from webmail.wedos.net (wes1-wm3.wedos.net [46.28.106.84]) by wes1-so1.wedos.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4bPYRn0TRRzhm; Sat, 21 Jun 2025 14:24:04 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=shared.dkim-wes1.wedos.net; s=bravo; t=1750508645; bh=yDgcvofmRpUpKyGUPKB4gHHfb6zf5DQH4SQyaDzrXpE=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=obLXhWfIlXYCRIzF91Y+tFRIMIbicOOVY/hwW6b2uw1nb3ju2Zon12SBSFoNnHFlS bO+mlZLUztfYmXYpeV9n8X/SZsSGJqw5lUQGVVpla1QljdUBLzVrKUIShG8DMxdkVJ A1qMJoLMhGFBWghYwCWHOuxTFo9p0HBhRUb6XHkE= List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2025 14:24:04 +0200 From: freebsd@sysctl.cz To: George Mitchell Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: REALLY SLOW chromium compilation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <08b7f7db4e4fdc2e744b528a33854884@sysctl.cz> X-Sender: freebsd@sysctl.cz User-Agent: Roundcube Webmail/1.2.4 X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.89 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.95)[-0.952]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.93)[-0.925]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.82)[-0.817]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.20)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[shared.dkim-wes1.wedos.net:s=bravo]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[46.28.105.98:from]; FROM_NO_DN(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:197019, ipnet:46.28.104.0/21, country:CZ]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[wedos.net:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sysctl.cz]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[shared.dkim-wes1.wedos.net:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bPYRr16gTz3Tjy X-Spamd-Bar: -- Dne 2025-06-20 17:20, George Mitchell napsal: > Compiling www/chromium has never been a fast operation, but a couple of > months ago on my AMD Ryzen 5 2600X, it took a mere 16 to 18 hours to > compile, and the last couple of times it has been taking over two days! > I've been running 14.2-RELEASE since the end of January, and I believe > chromium started using llvm-19 to compile last December. I can't think > of any other aspect of my system that changed more recently than that, > but I could be wrong. > > Is anyone else encountering this as well? Thanks! -- George Hi, you try add package to ALLOW_MAKE_JOBS_PACKAGES and enable ALLOW_MAKE_JOBS=yes in poudriere. M.F From nobody Sat Jun 21 15:00:56 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bPcx432g2z5ydTf for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2025 15:01:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from george+freebsd@m5p.com) Received: from mailhost.m5p.com (mailhost.m5p.com [74.104.188.4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "m5p.com", Issuer "R11" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bPcx36VB8z3xdH for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2025 15:01:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from george+freebsd@m5p.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from [IPV6:2001:470:8ac4::26] (court.m5p.com [IPv6:2001:470:8ac4:0:0:0:0:26]) (authenticated bits=0) by mailhost.m5p.com (8.18.1/8.17.1) with ESMTPSA id 55LF0waY067762 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 21 Jun 2025 11:01:04 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from george+freebsd@m5p.com) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2025 11:00:56 -0400 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: REALLY SLOW chromium compilation To: freebsd@sysctl.cz Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <08b7f7db4e4fdc2e744b528a33854884@sysctl.cz> Content-Language: en-US From: George Mitchell Autocrypt: addr=george+freebsd@m5p.com; keydata= xjMEZaHDbxYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdA2W6oBfS8haXY0/Ft4zS1OTLYfC8EBIADPTgMQdh85C3N KEdlb3JnZSBNaXRjaGVsbCA8Z2VvcmdlK2ZyZWVic2RAbTVwLmNvbT7CmQQTFgoAQRYhBDpv v9n4+UzMLAJ8EZocD3futmd9BQJlocSiAhsDBQkFo5qABQsJCAcCAiICBhUKCQgLAgQWAgMB Ah4HAheAAAoJEJocD3futmd9SxwBAJUi6DNdVhWCZBTv5XGy1g0JgApLWe/3S0M0zz9sn7/L AQCcJcV5k5s2rt9J5C1AUm6XVsuneVvIWXO5j1GKWk0NC844BGWhw28SCisGAQQBl1UBBQEB B0AaFz/6B95RRvjOdLZr5fSdhuIHvwr24H3ePDZSw6wlUwMBCAfCfgQYFgoAJhYhBDpvv9n4 +UzMLAJ8EZocD3futmd9BQJlocNvAhsMBQkFo5qAAAoJEJocD3futmd9RXsBANwRD9RE56F6 /jeZOrujHICLcgPiOt50Y6866v9OUTjUAP9GlC1aopfBpNwuPLJBam7oBaGqvY98VDhzOjoT 7DNbCQ== In-Reply-To: <08b7f7db4e4fdc2e744b528a33854884@sysctl.cz> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------rzu0E9rBWxpSOCSRRb40VFzU" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bPcx36VB8z3xdH X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[freebsd]; ASN(0.00)[asn:701, ipnet:74.104.0.0/16, country:US] This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------rzu0E9rBWxpSOCSRRb40VFzU Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------vCdMNjb8VHZBedgQARjEls0X"; protected-headers="v1" From: George Mitchell To: freebsd@sysctl.cz Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: REALLY SLOW chromium compilation References: <08b7f7db4e4fdc2e744b528a33854884@sysctl.cz> In-Reply-To: <08b7f7db4e4fdc2e744b528a33854884@sysctl.cz> --------------vCdMNjb8VHZBedgQARjEls0X Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 T24gNi8yMS8yNSAwODoyNCwgZnJlZWJzZEBzeXNjdGwuY3ogd3JvdGU6DQo+IERuZSAyMDI1 LTA2LTIwIDE3OjIwLCBHZW9yZ2UgTWl0Y2hlbGwgbmFwc2FsOg0KPj4gQ29tcGlsaW5nIHd3 dy9jaHJvbWl1bSBoYXMgbmV2ZXIgYmVlbiBhIGZhc3Qgb3BlcmF0aW9uLCBbLi4uXcKgIC0t IEdlb3JnZQ0KPiANCj4gSGksDQo+IHlvdSB0cnkgYWRkIHBhY2thZ2UgdG8gQUxMT1dfTUFL RV9KT0JTX1BBQ0tBR0VTIGFuZCBlbmFibGUgDQo+IEFMTE9XX01BS0VfSk9CUz15ZXMNCj4g aW4gcG91ZHJpZXJlLg0KPiANCj4gTS5GDQoNCkFzIHVzdWFsLCBJIGZvcmdvdCB0byBhZGQg dGhhdCBJIHVzZSBwb3J0bWFzdGVyIGJlY2F1c2UgSSBidWlsZCB3aXRoDQpub24tZGVmYXVs dCBvcHRpb25zLCBzbyB1c2luZyB0aGUgcGFja2FnZSB2ZXJzaW9uIHdvbid0IGhlbHAuICBJ IGFtDQpjb25zaWRlcmluZyBzd2l0Y2hpbmcgdG8gdGhlIGRlZmF1bHQgb3B0aW9ucywgdGhv dWdoLiAgICAgIC0tIEdlb3JnZQ0K --------------vCdMNjb8VHZBedgQARjEls0X-- --------------rzu0E9rBWxpSOCSRRb40VFzU Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wnsEABYIACMWIQQ6b7/Z+PlMzCwCfBGaHA937rZnfQUCaFbJKgUDAAAAAAAKCRCaHA937rZnfWzW AQDydxg+sYmWca+/lKwjWEe2kf4TJYHrxw2bFpXpxaRHFAD+NRc/40J9sTrhSM1RS6uuYM8DXn3w ikriT7iMgNikdQs= =H5br -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------rzu0E9rBWxpSOCSRRb40VFzU-- From nobody Sat Jun 21 15:32:33 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bPddP0Vs1z5ygDf for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2025 15:32:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Received: from www121.sakura.ne.jp (www121.sakura.ne.jp [153.125.133.21]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bPddL4PNQz3FGl for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2025 15:32:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=dec.sakura.ne.jp header.s=s2405 header.b=YETmvNE8; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp designates 153.125.133.21 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=dec.sakura.ne.jp Received: from kalamity.joker.local (124-18-43-114.area1c.commufa.jp [124.18.43.114]) (authenticated bits=0) by www121.sakura.ne.jp (8.18.1/8.17.1/[SAKURA-WEB]/20201212) with ESMTPA id 55LFWX1K097439; Sun, 22 Jun 2025 00:32:35 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=dec.sakura.ne.jp; s=s2405; t=1750519955; bh=ZUVTfEv6/zqyz6bq5lVcGJRN1G0ta/bSUnNtCdGgFfs=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=YETmvNE89VzgwI6kK7Nu1rkTBfe1xXV0g6eQfoTanPBUW/BN03WPXfeFOAiK1bwpj KZUjw5ptMfUEprHOoF5p/jnvzdpROSJjxd7kejEIaQH+8f9ectJSl6bRsHxn2CLVfB 2uIIWVVG+jWQ/c8NtWNWE+hc1XBNyzP3QtQ+67Ww= Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2025 00:32:33 +0900 From: Tomoaki AOKI To: George Mitchell Cc: freebsd@sysctl.cz, FreeBSD Hackers , owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: REALLY SLOW chromium compilation Message-Id: <20250622003233.3d103eb04efd08f8ef69962f@dec.sakura.ne.jp> In-Reply-To: References: <08b7f7db4e4fdc2e744b528a33854884@sysctl.cz> Organization: Junchoon corps X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.33; amd64-portbld-freebsd14.2) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.97 / 15.00]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[]; SUSPICIOUS_URL_IN_SUSPICIOUS_MESSAGE(1.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.982]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.93)[-0.932]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.92)[-0.920]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; URIBL_RED(0.50)[dec.sakura.ne.jp:mid,dec.sakura.ne.jp:email]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.20)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; HAS_ANON_DOMAIN(0.10)[]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[dec.sakura.ne.jp:-]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(0.00)[dec.sakura.ne.jp,none]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_REJECT(0.00)[dec.sakura.ne.jp:s=s2405]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW_WITH_FAILURES(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+ip4:153.125.133.16/28]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7684, ipnet:153.125.128.0/18, country:JP]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bPddL4PNQz3FGl X-Spamd-Bar: / On Sat, 21 Jun 2025 11:00:56 -0400 George Mitchell wrote: > On 6/21/25 08:24, freebsd@sysctl.cz wrote: > > Dne 2025-06-20 17:20, George Mitchell napsal: > >> Compiling www/chromium has never been a fast operation, [...]  -- George > > > > Hi, > > you try add package to ALLOW_MAKE_JOBS_PACKAGES and enable > > ALLOW_MAKE_JOBS=yes > > in poudriere. > > > > M.F > > As usual, I forgot to add that I use portmaster because I build with > non-default options, so using the package version won't help. I am > considering switching to the default options, though. -- George Can you believe, at some limited time window years ago, www/chromium built much faster than www/firefox? At the time, www/firefox tool far longer than now (around 4x to 5x!), though. IIRC, it was because www/chromium introduced pre-compiled headers. It significantly reduced build time, but not sure why, the supports for it was dropped, maybe because something problematic happened, maybe non-FreeBSD environments. -- Tomoaki AOKI From nobody Sat Jun 21 16:18:22 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bPff91zBNz5yj99 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2025 16:18:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R11" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bPff91Lm0z3hvv; Sat, 21 Jun 2025 16:18:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1750522705; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=T5P9Xt1UMQdVnAYjagRubulBU9IJOmd0ohkfHsM2AfU=; b=SOQkf2nWkMlyrQH+3DFda/RloiFQFcoszDUUxmDWiwS0+AB1K6Gks/yjWkVEa6WSn1uafn eVcCLMpP9ZkvfowxqxC/G6GtbAS0ee0sXmRJr+AxXka6lRveUqevnSuDrYfUzi8Miv4ajy uMJO/lQvZG3nvifpPc+5SO2W/qyvIQLx5b5Cu8w5L/70dnnBf677IfhMT4R8pgjoFKHHtk zA6Kh3QHeJyW5q6NzZ/z+Rm2l4h8cpIEuN/FMoKl4pA7iOv2ry+vWMxkxBmSt8R5ByUE/C pNhwT+3zcVlwHhIBNJIGSmuKKsb7ujHK6/92inZBmVzrAQzfRBjkpJEUd0dkTA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1750522705; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=T5P9Xt1UMQdVnAYjagRubulBU9IJOmd0ohkfHsM2AfU=; b=vrEKb9tRMGTNBKEe7gHfWTj4ZAtrFYTaXoGOw67vWRernQZYjy9aUIXYT80B07iVGBOpOI l9Ksr17g/NQgXOjY/acii+QZicI4m1Lly4nNJXDnnpZxufNr6PRZavuwiUoUtvMrDt0RgY 2KGnnT0aSA5ctf3rE7/pFFDJj9kLtg/QynigrcsYBt5mICxV2UWEgRmnzIQiYo7+fhcffq 5vakvbKUoLO7hTKsQlGK1iZfaPToiAQzS9lhX5rFKgR/IQ0sJlO4xodq5QScJJXe4P02B4 GlMEdclvLOc1iRGfsvEXFwYzdSqnkzIumrZIW+a6CaQu3IIvJSF5gmhGHzrD9w== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1750522705; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=yUUIHyxJtnyqD++ttcjcmkiI0jCN80auk3T9MRNxIdPqBZc67phfXeYwulkStc6wIsmmf5 qlcOv4MBK9b7P4P48sUyt4ZlqBEIDQgcxyzPsBP5T5UAqbm2HJf55vLdClehfvpQqeVFcU e4lRmlxRMca13GYLGaeNnWy/GDFPuarSRXMwKkLBKzezyodpq9n1ryRZo4+OeK/MhfzGHr 5njZ9X2Spi7YQ6/Ka98L/oV1zTk+m4tpqWflGDh4hOoEYMxcsbotYKjo2hJGf2v66fL9MS oQZcRsDHC62zW22esl+KTGIOwbpCFwUQK+rcO6//nIl7M88UuQPLdQb2MrbVnw== Received: from ltc.des.dev (88-177-82-251.subs.proxad.net [88.177.82.251]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: des) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4bPff903XVz19TX; Sat, 21 Jun 2025 16:18:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) Received: by ltc.des.dev (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 7D41C546AC; Sat, 21 Jun 2025 18:18:22 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: George Mitchell Cc: freebsd@sysctl.cz, FreeBSD Hackers , owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: REALLY SLOW chromium compilation In-Reply-To: (George Mitchell's message of "Sat, 21 Jun 2025 11:00:56 -0400") References: <08b7f7db4e4fdc2e744b528a33854884@sysctl.cz> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2025 18:18:22 +0200 Message-ID: <86ikkphxv5.fsf@ltc.des.dev> List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable George Mitchell writes: > As usual, I forgot to add that I use portmaster because I build with > non-default options, so using the package version won't help. I am > considering switching to the default options, though. Poudriere can build packages with non-default options. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@FreeBSD.org From nobody Sat Jun 21 17:31:51 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bPhHH1pRbz5ynGv for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2025 17:32:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from george+freebsd@m5p.com) Received: from mailhost.m5p.com (mailhost.m5p.com [74.104.188.4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "m5p.com", Issuer "R11" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bPhHG5XXLz4Mkh; Sat, 21 Jun 2025 17:32:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from george+freebsd@m5p.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from [IPV6:2001:470:8ac4::26] (court.m5p.com [IPv6:2001:470:8ac4:0:0:0:0:26]) (authenticated bits=0) by mailhost.m5p.com (8.18.1/8.17.1) with ESMTPSA id 55LHVup4068295 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); 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[77.37.180.76]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 38308e7fff4ca-32b97fd6e58sm7039001fa.50.2025.06.21.11.15.31 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 21 Jun 2025 11:15:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2025 21:15:29 +0300 From: Vadim Goncharov To: George Mitchell Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: REALLY SLOW chromium compilation Message-ID: <20250621211529.00a38e2c@nuclight.lan> In-Reply-To: References: <08b7f7db4e4fdc2e744b528a33854884@sysctl.cz> <86ikkphxv5.fsf@ltc.des.dev> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.21.0 (GTK+ 2.24.33; amd64-portbld-freebsd13.4) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.62 / 15.00]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.99)[0.989]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.987]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.62)[-0.618]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20230601]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::134:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bPjFW5NLZz3Zdy X-Spamd-Bar: - On Sat, 21 Jun 2025 13:31:51 -0400 George Mitchell wrote: > On 6/21/25 12:18, Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav wrote: > > George Mitchell writes: =20 > >> As usual, I forgot to add that I use portmaster because I build with > >> non-default options, so using the package version won't help. I am > >> considering switching to the default options, though. =20 > >=20 > > Poudriere can build packages with non-default options. > >=20 > > DES =20 >=20 > Indeed. I dislike poudriere simply because it is a sledge hammer in > my context. When I first tried it (eight or nine years ago), it tended > to make my build machine panic. I did try it a couple more times after > that but it took too much time. With portmaster, I run into other > problems, of course, but I can usually debug them; and I can compile > only the stuff I need compiled (i.e. to fix CVEs). -- George You can also try synth. --=20 WBR, @nuclight From nobody Sat Jun 21 23:27:00 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bPr8w3KBjz606p1 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2025 23:27:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Received: from www121.sakura.ne.jp (www121.sakura.ne.jp [153.125.133.21]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bPr8v1QJ2z3x9s; Sat, 21 Jun 2025 23:27:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from kalamity.joker.local (124-18-43-114.area1c.commufa.jp [124.18.43.114]) (authenticated bits=0) by www121.sakura.ne.jp (8.18.1/8.17.1/[SAKURA-WEB]/20201212) with ESMTPA id 55LNR0iJ059520; Sun, 22 Jun 2025 08:27:00 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=dec.sakura.ne.jp; s=s2405; t=1750548421; bh=XXctdJAa1KMmVkznagCKbs8Vb+toBhxvtoiD2ZKJ92c=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=HkaGJpjoF0F6TNOmJltzhzuUkQRDeQ5WYO3lVnLGj9mZ4csqLyWmWt79ZJnfwMlzH YfnSO6x2FRy/ugHj91htPmwTUgL2zmWpWPDuPyZOCLmdXnCpfqMUAk8nJigy4ZaZNT o1wL1r1o41YT9j7SFhR773Sov0k9CTwpJd/r8KCE= Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2025 08:27:00 +0900 From: Tomoaki AOKI To: Dag-Erling =?UTF-8?B?U23DuHJncmF2?= Cc: George Mitchell , freebsd@sysctl.cz, FreeBSD Hackers , owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: REALLY SLOW chromium compilation Message-Id: <20250622082700.8322bbaba749ca00943971ea@dec.sakura.ne.jp> In-Reply-To: <86ikkphxv5.fsf@ltc.des.dev> References: <08b7f7db4e4fdc2e744b528a33854884@sysctl.cz> <86ikkphxv5.fsf@ltc.des.dev> Organization: Junchoon corps X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.33; amd64-portbld-freebsd14.2) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bPr8v1QJ2z3x9s X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7684, ipnet:153.125.128.0/18, country:JP] On Sat, 21 Jun 2025 18:18:22 +0200 Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > George Mitchell writes: > > As usual, I forgot to add that I use portmaster because I build with > > non-default options, so using the package version won't help. I am > > considering switching to the default options, though. > > Poudriere can build packages with non-default options. > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smørgrav - des@FreeBSD.org And can share the non-default options between bare-metal builds and poudriere by symlinking like below. ln -s /var/db/ports /usr/local/etc/poudriere.d/options after deleting or moving /usr/local/etc/poudriere.d/options directory. I'm disclosing some more for my casual use-case at below. https://brew.bsd.cafe/TomAoki/Tips-and-Tricks/src/branch/main/poudriere -- Tomoaki AOKI From nobody Sun Jun 22 01:30:49 2025 X-Original-To: hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bPtvp4dMqz60DYL for ; Sun, 22 Jun 2025 01:31:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net [65.75.216.6]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bPtvm5wHdz3M1t; Sun, 22 Jun 2025 01:31:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net designates 65.75.216.6 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gndrsh.dnsmgr.net Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id 55M1UoIc040073; Sat, 21 Jun 2025 18:30:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id 55M1UnFX040072; Sat, 21 Jun 2025 18:30:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <202506220130.55M1UnFX040072@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: 100Gb performance In-Reply-To: To: Rick Macklem Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2025 18:30:49 -0700 (PDT) CC: =?UTF-8?Q?Olivier_Cochard-Labb=C3=A9?= , Mark Saad , freebsd-hackers X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.05 / 15.00]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(1.00)[0.998]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.87)[0.874]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.52)[-0.518]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gndrsh.dnsmgr.net,none]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:65.75.216.0/23]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; ASN(0.00)[asn:10494, ipnet:65.75.216.0/23, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[hackers@FreeBSD.org]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bPtvm5wHdz3M1t X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Have the TCP inflight buffers been tuned for the BDP of this link? When calculating delay do not just assume the one way link delay as what you really need is the delay until the sender gets to processing an ack. I would be interested in the values of the following, and the effect of doubling to quadrupling them has on the performance. (I believe I have shown the defaults) kern.ipc.maxsockbuf=2097152 net.inet.tcp.recvbuf_max=2097152 net.inet.tcp.sendbuf_max=2097152 net.inet.tcp.recvspace=65536 net.inet.tcp.sendspace=32768 I understand you can't modfy the server side, but I think you can extract the values being used there. What is the resulting Window Scale being used on the TCP TWH? > On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 2:34?PM Olivier Cochard-Labb? > wrote: > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 4:31?PM Rick Macklem wrote: > > > >> > >> There is the "nconnect" mount option. It might help here. > >> > > > > Interesting! > > > > Let?s try: > > > > Server side: > > ``` > > mkdir /tmp/nfs > > mount -t tmpfs tmpfs /tmp/nfs > > chmod 777 /tmp/nfs/ > > cat > /etc/exports < > V4: /tmp > > /tmp/nfs -network 1.1.1.0/24 > > EOF > > sysrc nfs_server_enable=YES > > sysrc nfsv4_server_enable=YES > > sysrc nfsv4_server_only=YES > > service nfsd start > > ``` > > > > Client side: > > ``` > > mkdir /tmp/nfs > > sysrc nfs_client_enable=YES > > service nfsclient start > > ``` > > > > Now testing standard speed: > > ``` > > # mount -t nfs -o noatime,nfsv4 1.1.1.30:/nfs /tmp/nfs/ > > # netstat -an -f inet -p tcp | grep 2049 | wc -l > > 1 > > # dd if=/dev/zero of=/tmp/nfs/test bs=1G count=10 > > 10+0 records in > > 10+0 records out > > 10737418240 bytes transferred in 8.526794 secs (1259256159 bytes/sec) > > # rm /tmp/nfs/test > > # umount /tmp/nfs > > ``` > > > > And with nconnect=16: > > ``` > > # mount -t nfs -o noatime,nfsv4,nconnect=16 1.1.1.30:/nfs /tmp/nfs/ > > # dd if=/dev/zero of=/tmp/nfs/test bs=1G count=10 > > 10+0 records in > > 10+0 records out > > 10737418240 bytes transferred in 8.633871 secs (1243638980 bytes/sec) > > # rm /tmp/nfs/test > > # netstat -an -f inet -p tcp | grep 2049 | wc -l > > 16 > > ``` > > > > => No difference here, but 16 output queues were correctly used with nconnect=16. > > How is load-sharing done with NFS nconnect ? > > I?ve tested with benchmarks/fio using parallel jobs and I don?t see any improvement too. > Here's a few other things you can try.. > On the server: > - add nfs_server_maxio=1048576 to /etc/rc.conf. > > On the client: > - put vfs.maxbcachebuf=1048576 in /boot/loader.conf > - use "wcommitsize=" as an additional mount option. > > On both client and server, bump kern.ipc.maxsockbuf up a bunch. > > Once you do the mount do > # nfsstat -m > on the client and you should see the rsize/wsize set to 1048576 > and a large value for wcommitsize > > For reading, you should also use "readahead=8" as a mount option. > > Also, if you can turn down (or turn off) interrupt moderation on the > NIC driver, try that. (Interrupt moderation is great for data streaming > in one direction but is not so good for NFS, which consists of bidirectional > traffic of mostly small RPC messages. Every Write gets a small reply message > in the server->client direction to complete the Write and delay processing > these small received messages will slow NFS down.) > > rick > > > > > Regards, > > Olivier > > > -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From nobody Sun Jun 22 19:27:42 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bQLpC6CZxz6094P for ; Sun, 22 Jun 2025 19:27:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from grahamperrin@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wr1-x434.google.com (mail-wr1-x434.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::434]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bQLpC2C4Cz3xc8 for ; Sun, 22 Jun 2025 19:27:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from grahamperrin@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=O1bJYRYm; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of grahamperrin@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::434 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=grahamperrin@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com Received: by mail-wr1-x434.google.com with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-3a503d9ef59so2457011f8f.3 for ; Sun, 22 Jun 2025 12:27:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1750620464; x=1751225264; darn=freebsd.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:autocrypt:from :content-language:references:to:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date :message-id:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=I8jzA/C1d3tLNrMaNmaYFGUTqXkLl1pFo9tIL9cef7s=; b=O1bJYRYmoq31h4S3ZU4PlYgBhRg8uJULoSs4G7jxxUUGPiKlTvMDBb6ef9dOrasj3s xuC1mi31A9zBMdlebZmrPVIr66ni+WMULQmA/c/IbtNN0DYQrd+lJfKrG6Jeqwap6OHv 5lBNik3pYWNXZFwldWE1Wup9KBUOyGW8V1FWljE5HMaDCGslgY4P0KgaY1ftSHI9WsFA y3L8JLy9u+Mp3fjWL3xWjkx5P01Zt80rNXol1D9ohZC/ziDahIjNE/Tpe0pBXvsp4/b6 N837s5+G6NMC1fwOA1wsrOZKZ0QTHQiOUIEf9UJpdERFyp6XXjpzPcpH6fIecXbGH/qC hK2w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1750620464; x=1751225264; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:autocrypt:from :content-language:references:to:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date :message-id:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=I8jzA/C1d3tLNrMaNmaYFGUTqXkLl1pFo9tIL9cef7s=; b=OKCDTzJYIqCtcnZypFDKQgKfP135evaKFTMX2pkhNTr+RjfBKIdnvScXZwHjQwBc/T jjUUcEqvHhr7Qa/pSSxf1C9/cW57J8qd+maqdxgZNIuDf2ib5f9A85yDaDu49OQm2Rvt 8NqWbY4MMObmSeQ6LjorjVYoJtI/0qTMCXs0iwzLf+Rg7kjVnnQdLdf0lmpbYyyE5CR3 nSQTMnGcQyNVmCqHIBlStb7klKFgghLnZF7CimYmxXG8pMv+9Cvks/1P8Wk5wzySrot/ S1hUIH+eXsgvLmGnfhooRItITnf6a/KkQyknj8XMM5+s3HfHKvkWNrvme1zDEDqovuw+ 5KNw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yz3vawRrnAu820qMDV2dRm/CY0ZVcY8Bc9dhDjnCc3MHVQ/q41x i/sAC3o119dP+MveGlhZ6qVSNBqADVh6i2PbzQcMWSAKZGleXWjjxq3p9NT2J9pf X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncvMIwhAuejV6heEqCYkFuoWvlbwk848BM4ebwYn3V/CZ+pfQJhDwOGkTyCxGyE oB4N5wVV0ySU/oONPgfuGH50YwwfoWn3tDUWI/+G0VZTjMUNDsRGWU9u+3NcfvCrrz6Okk8m6fu A7HxcRfuOHEflBl8sL7DB4M7eDBIsDqwkAvo5Ez+013QiCe5EF6AMvnTYDJ559ZGfI2KehukgQY /Qt/BR80dt4J9pls/oKXtYmndpcHcF1pDJEZYH+Rrb5SNFyNig1yehOteZu0rac9T5mTJPBmGeY i1sm/B6dQJYQfhQRBxizi7pvUyAXuzlbQAfpCFG51X7YKne80uiXBSmVyp8mfHx2bH471Za5tF3 FpSsYxsNtDFUvhqvPpop0Ew== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGbC5lJnw0EFaeVj9unHkj+3GqqL10leC+q5dReDid0t0AuApKnt/2clPL1cGdN3lGDwSPmuA== X-Received: by 2002:adf:b609:0:b0:3a5:2670:e220 with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-3a6d131803dmr5884719f8f.32.1750620463796; Sun, 22 Jun 2025 12:27:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (host-89-241-98-164.as13285.net. [89.241.98.164]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ffacd0b85a97d-3a6d0f17ac7sm7613387f8f.23.2025.06.22.12.27.42 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 22 Jun 2025 12:27:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2a3dd896-fd03-4131-aeec-c83bebe080aa@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2025 20:27:42 +0100 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: Notes on improving the installer To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <8634byieib.fsf@asn.ftfl.ca> Content-Language: en-GB From: Graham Perrin Autocrypt: addr=grahamperrin@gmail.com; keydata= xsFNBGKYt7ABEAClu83dJ3ZKfVgPOk9YKRv0Z+dl2b88+k9R4vwAmElgguYdKE7yhnQNhhWM v9vi6AFrBMc2oJdVHJ2OrXfwpELBFIgiSMEWNsC4e+Z3HtSajcl+pFZsP7ciiSoycj/w3wIV kAZoVGbhyIbNG7fbCEJ8q81TbfsGypV3bRmbZVvGNecBguYiooBtz2Qht1p3itXMkIA6P9pS YDl+6QddZLyUUAjAnFv2QDoYSHLnaDUWw4oONZsB0SKVu8jMIBh4uJZoYEOvdvc9jQQdOpA2 CAgA6ulfm42Ikr9lKBUUCtjqiWAhJ7iXOTyHAIdR4Mf8alCE6tdTq6dHdIt+GktTY7oYNyL2 3aD3C7I5waU0SFXvJcOMG10QLfwYQMOQoYQ9XJ0U5A28WYiDcylDdUWT7SappP1e1ZMeJWWO y14mxxNzHaJSI4rK8P/p5tp3Q7SSC4k5gMh9zKba3K2ApCWNbVLGvXsJeQkZZNvu70tE81ey AHI5iZcB6D7WaHysBUmsKaEpbcmm1ZThTnGL0SHEl5to5Jab5Fg6O+Cnly5sVz5lX/v8Aosx kKNei7SCVqXOVtteQeGxWbXWbhPgbMyc0Gi3DuxBI/yvJ43k/rJysQlLGLWfJx/UXprwLluC PDK9EvKEB+fD1Z349uzp1sKr3ihpySbyKI8fpudftnAz4EsoCwARAQABzSZHcmFoYW0gUGVy cmluIDxncmFoYW1wZXJyaW5AZ21haWwuY29tPsLBlAQTAQoAPhYhBFk/5bLDBwftvJcvCrdn SG9KGNQLBQJoRALAAhsDBQkPEg5ABQsJCAcDBRUKCQgLBRYDAgEAAh4FAheAAAoJELdnSG9K GNQL8YkP/2V1z6XQDyG1QlKAu8TuE8zDWy9QQKjC/G44hlu5zk+2kWSNk4zeExs9ZXOBmVhF EW1d+1J8wDiYIeKYj/rqMoP+gb8o0Au0lSRitvTdLxkZBFGMn0CEzlDOzv+wmiy0ggAV/s+Y EbiHk12fI0LoTy5/ywdmG/uGS7M6p3XOrM0YO1qmLXy1cUyYDsYIpq5/rT0QzpGowsJLoEA3 zz1vfKVY+RTorsL4W8ljXLmcs4c3b3HZG9Xmgtt+Ni/eb9CjzM7kCXOcSMnVzvfscCowPAwB 0ZHlNxNV0MTa61xgvOCk4Zf278ArRgbTm4oOz9Z4ciPMnVue+9P/VdxIxgUuYkAryM0+agGz L9bd8ljn+efNtgZ5dlDLrNnTE+vWnMVlMXgl7BNnhwHg7UYFLrC2xklsICub0qpnNheTGeqo 0N4UongJTQJ6H6LEpgd+KMkCncAHghED/G0/BUdO90VEOoqnIKwKa+F9NqVMvHWc8D58mwCP FghsmxK9FM9pnsjLmG7u+s51Y7++GSRnU4NkI4tHiVk7hcAcvZuc0QbUDwVMTurDUgIqRo6W 80j1tFjEspkrwtMoeVFEkDHktjoc3AoEymXIncZfqIqi3nVseyDVyNByvkV0mutX9hXqac0/ RXMuyK9KniAUZ9+gsWs4rPs/DOdsw4K8/RnjduBrfCYQzsFNBGKYt7ABEADRb1tZuh7DPYET 0wK6fe7owbYgM+RfKhmcrGgR2HI9M2q6+0WKF/ITnggWdIW2Ecc4z2boLz/cwvPGCS7/YxZM 61KklGCwuS7q1s04XnHDWHuFxfXQPzAdVmNO3bYoMZbJjHXs6sB2u5ksiwPwaMAWWaGkviSj c5pwvHCiTmX5vH5CBj/Vi+5ESyX38vK4JM5S/m4ouI/6M9biyFgimV+v3vVyCxJCT1gI9g4o GIh1qq5S433b1fihn4yHPf8XOKyBpA/QcwLONViBqJL5nnOxpsh344rNxn2R7CcRzzicOV+e 2IbMem4lwNWQlZKoRotKXZi9LqN5mynSBYqAUdoZum0QinWT9F22B0Qex5PH1zAt9i2W91Vd kcPB3LwkRXj07ycRtsSzpgPA6fLc6AsoWFslHl8kVOO5eJIA4xhjlPa+W8lguQHZ0iX+5uAv 2eAgXR2swADuHPuENNFStmsgAMl8OOOgtq75yA5TpyIzxMuXV9Nmp0VfIaUM/IdLdmxhc1pC c320l5fYMHVLFAReWEbSj2QH8YzWfpXHIegutWWYEbH9SiDXgS9KoKmCJV/Qa+x6/b8y3pOZ vnIbCDaynC2Yr50s8gRa9kb54JE8Z+p8r16U3SEsK3PtUi0RF0e51danCVHrrE6/Hat2XUO/ 6nnYgVgFOrLao6Gh/VMs8wARAQABwsF8BBgBCgAmFiEEWT/lssMHB+28ly8Kt2dIb0oY1AsF AmhEAsACGwwFCQ8SDkAACgkQt2dIb0oY1AvQxw//REWYFK2m4yS/QP5kzfhkWcNqDI/akGT5 /LXmdmbc1s78+mOMXnA4vBY/+X1QatgxWUECkPDOiIwXJMxoBuyY8e7spLRXeyhtfh5aYaJc MO5bARX0c49v+KfZ80u9tG2rkKQvAt/ySo7OXsbDADFFRhlc8RLbb8e7bSctGbYZk9CYa0ya dW5+n3znDNJ6yW1skx9wTH+Y8VlSazRLk3XgXscNqBA2h56v3WS/R5dI++7AQxZxSQacQvfj 9eahq7ATdB4zMQ9MBHEwOvGD3DLlc55FYSDZvNX+mhnK7S0t1Nt2EtGUOmXb5ysMFGnbsce0 woKQ0sLPF1HWDAAf7tBCF8mpPIzU/ViAkupsJ6NYCD0tLFD8pvl0NYU2TjvyWh6ie3e5B/b3 8Daiyme+M92ivfoRQOFKmkPfeT14AI6OW1k7qFbmoIwMWWQdFWAl1CP9hNdF9gRN4rFB0Jy1 90BajZW2zOdVfqdurJZegCzAowZalLm4JEK2MklpPzipibnJqhLOmvJy587pF52KDdM/4rLy BBREIm7uRivnO5k/BY5qS+H/aqv97LC0PVaTsLXbDmTxTnJplUpdlYT9NGidM+x/ioS0iztO Cht7cT8V8jvvKZYvNpst8iqxuIaoV9V7aZ0wAQpkgDGXHmSzwtz6U8xNf/4e4sLn9KPlldSd kvo= In-Reply-To: <8634byieib.fsf@asn.ftfl.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.78 / 15.00]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(1.00)[1.000]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[0.996]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.78)[0.779]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36:c]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20230601]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[grahamperrin]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::434:from]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bQLpC2C4Cz3xc8 X-Spamd-Bar: + On 17/06/2025 16:17, Joseph Mingrone wrote: > … Feedback and contributions are welcome. > > Joe IMHO the installer should not recommend a minimum amount of memory that is insufficient for the minimal set of base packages (all optional components de-selected). Considerations include the future likelihood that a significant proportion of users will download an installer that includes the packages; . HTH From nobody Sun Jun 22 23:47:23 2025 X-Original-To: hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bQSZ8151Xz5yRSR for ; Sun, 22 Jun 2025 23:47:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rick.macklem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ed1-x529.google.com (mail-ed1-x529.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::529]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bQSZ670zcz3c0Y for ; Sun, 22 Jun 2025 23:47:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rick.macklem@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=Aez27YkE; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of rick.macklem@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::529 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=rick.macklem@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com Received: by mail-ed1-x529.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-607cc1a2bd8so5421407a12.2 for ; Sun, 22 Jun 2025 16:47:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1750636056; x=1751240856; darn=freebsd.org; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject :date:message-id:reply-to; bh=B3IJDKts+dpTySIAw9rlSSEe+IAol+jNYjjg99Yinio=; b=Aez27YkEgHBzh4QacyxKf78BMIx/49abuBlo1t8WAErAva/Op3vkyCKeBohp5lLYXm slBRh69EXiOOKDXJcks8qKvfszJbObNF4/jI5oI7aBaHsF1j1Onud+LrmxCQsDIBpsaR 29azq8s13pXRtrS9KIscaDP2ZZw2mLi9bAthEt7octE6XQogUNIf6CgMSv5e9aWGZDtj 6TR5E6iRn/cD019CC4UXf4kreFkNbj7ZHwWmqsLTjRlUjC9+zGKk0ZsAb/OYP/nXCUoa 9zPhoOVltuanT0FDJg9aNmloPAu7VoZD7u3tSAQaeiRh3/QazYkJrCLH3Zgz3KK2pR3K lB7Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1750636056; x=1751240856; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:mime-version:x-gm-message-state :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=B3IJDKts+dpTySIAw9rlSSEe+IAol+jNYjjg99Yinio=; b=QlEnc0tX7Q4r6VVTpJ1/Du0j3bmgPCoWJsE0GpsTwVQ6DUhnkTGRHeoY6c8to35FAy AfUS+5eJbcIG9UakHe9XwbNKSIEpqaxINHSrm6E7KaVgpiGjNZYSt0ssKzd1PpQ/mWcY s15rKDjEnlZ/QWeWIX4bGVw/8pmuq9c1LyTX/I9ELQHyJ+pxwcQnPYgkiNxzyNTaKN4f dShrw7EA9aHz2FiKRSWIMfKBnS53WpnqBeC7HlOh3V+nt1hltNYY4qB4mPAVsJR+xOjG mHfHn2Gosfbf+rSWvnCUG4oyRWR19ukSnvx87rE4eYqi2Ambh9Rq/n5A+mBN1uQHEeCc OC8A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyfmkfZepEWpN9E9nl0pwcxF1XIODP8lZOXQHvwBqOjJ0TLEiJq ovhDBs39GuOg8Vj33KnnNJQI0ZvVeYYIAB1Q9DOBt/w2ZxVbL0Wi6b1G/N+6U9vjRT5TXmEfA1q PWgMm7uXhJqIIN86wnlmCFAc38HxHUwO9+Jk= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncsLtf8IFYLzUQEutwOGX8d61NnGijyfjcY80nLbrw+n77ZdCC/Y1T5KNwoTBON OugeoHU3htbFVfeERfeNVIDqRWmEyg+9KOslezTt21IUr2uP9rLfiEtUurvZUVnSEc17L3RqPmX uB1d2lvnse4Mn6EryHJEVmMnELxeIsNjur1PNNk/jxn2VXmjcojw1Ne5HFXCYZUfiOj1rEN6b9N 0w= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFpgYi5y2Xt56GMUIlOp/lvwF/DOrzNyPoukYgZ2X49ilRY9/TcZkyV8SYbLv9gOvfuyXtnk//Ga03qHyU4ih4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:2813:b0:5f7:f55a:e5e1 with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-60a1cf2e32dmr9874173a12.24.1750636055720; Sun, 22 Jun 2025 16:47:35 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Rick Macklem Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2025 16:47:23 -0700 X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFu4M1u4sTfNrlfKfCfyIVqNj7rHNIiP9yQT04U1hhtHeUJrllX5V7v-Hek Message-ID: Subject: RFC: Can FreeBSD stream Netflix? To: freebsd-hackers Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.88 / 15.00]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.99)[0.987]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.91)[-0.907]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.80)[0.799]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20230601]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[hackers@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROMTLD(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[hackers@freebsd.org]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::529:from]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bQSZ670zcz3c0Y X-Spamd-Bar: / Hi, When I'm not tinkering with NFS I'm just a dumbass user, so here's a dumbass user question... The background (you can just skip to the question at the end but maybe you'll find this useful. I have two old Dell laptops (6420s) that I picked up used and they've done ok, but both now have flakey hdds. #1 - hdd died completely, so I installed FreeBSD and it went pretty smoothly. It runs Xorg, KDE etc and works pretty well. But I can't get it to do one all important thing. Stream Netflix. (I've tried assorted browsers, but always get the "you should upgrade your browser" treatment.) #2 - Runs Win10 and does stream Netflix, but is throwing lots of hdd errors, so it only a matter of time before I'll need to replace the hdd. Once I do that, I have three choices: a) Install FreeBSD, but only if I can get it to stream Netflix. b) Install Linux. (Some posts claim Linux distros with up to date browsers can stream Netflix?) c) Install Win10 and run FreeBSD in a VM or dual boot it. I'd prefer (a), which leads to the all important question... Is there someone out there that runs FreeBSD on a laptop or desktop who can stream Netflix? If you can answer "yes", can you recall how you installed it to make this work? Thanks in advance for any answers, rick From nobody Sun Jun 22 23:50:24 2025 X-Original-To: hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bQSdY3qZKz5yRdV for ; Sun, 22 Jun 2025 23:50:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vk1-xa2d.google.com (mail-vk1-xa2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a2d]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bQSdX4JfMz3fBR for ; Sun, 22 Jun 2025 23:50:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=iBcecZur; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryeh.friedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::a2d as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryeh.friedman@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com Received: by mail-vk1-xa2d.google.com with SMTP id 71dfb90a1353d-5240764f7c1so1168161e0c.2 for ; Sun, 22 Jun 2025 16:50:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1750636234; x=1751241034; darn=freebsd.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=smRZtAQbj0Z9xzO1Fu3uvZSIOQCoti3EzmYVlcxFcNQ=; b=iBcecZurFqHQ80Gjv/v8usvRdW+HI9r3hwI13KiglzkIZEPowsDL0CzsSPGmFV1k9K 9Rl5F7nm+ZyQAzVPU1oQ8bApADhi4Z8cUBGzFtl1+UzTVYgExC1egoTKdUGIpHWkRp6Y JIXYqProEllgofdO2NS57PqYvUIRiC2p3ADqUu3LnRPgwdBhGhmCUsJSzPNrtuNFKB2U CtF58YziSwf213stoWMSWQhdD3x4iJTvkS9FWNAzPd3UEumiaI+d4wozlwhxHFd3nhco W+tWMJAmH1ZEDguJESBKFwxTFNLyznbT5slcLPxl40AEI5cGitrRJdQu9eS2oCSSRZ+c cbKQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1750636234; x=1751241034; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=smRZtAQbj0Z9xzO1Fu3uvZSIOQCoti3EzmYVlcxFcNQ=; b=kUIuuI3Tl6Bnl4Qh8UmZWZeoqCqFBRjMSL9xG9qDmQfdKhD7ZVQZ55u+kfoEzSl+bY a8WXNLyuhesLtmaV/tM6KbtSknK4CGNty0JPgDf1DPu64izvzxkLRj2qzZmw8QPfvZeH wAK8/8jFn2TgzrkAMpI8tOOsMA7N4GQ9XFAa9cUv1edqC7QiRwsOAnAyRkjvdADRroVd 9EbIKy3wDKiaaCx+axNRLqPBhREH/q2YmQ9WVH4QNwJPaZgjZ+xmZGYqxhlt1w2rR4KK RZ4MGER1gTcprkTHo0NSQlfUbAd8OItZ4aXVLorncP/118zBYQve4LIuYpY7TAxq1N4B qE7A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Ywr7PyeAQ1dxQ0ZC2N/SyafX8Xw6TGwaR3nBElRrRhhPIBVFphU su3JVXWWpUrr0zE+LVX9NOJW/9tz239gGv/CDi6PXhRtIvD8iis0XepSXnGdIUKB2douapkcO8d Ld75fpmx1XM18Ow9ZXh+R+GPK+qYVQG0uFA== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGnctfVD9eZuSblt5eGRF3/gQV+0Q4iacEKRUTj5RL3yvEHTZRhlX+wdu6C6iUPKi f0VjdnGTw2SQSmoinfOw+leGisZOsqBUWkgJDx9a7PLRUnLhIB5/c9E7nc96BWLvJgDXoU3qRqq H5sXZtMXSrWG0vP+k50ClgbFrfZZhVLN/qqNF2FXOf+qEI1w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEkyClB9jF6Sd4SFgsxVVzLUqEVYb0ND08dJrnmnYCPo3eZReFYoC8T1Nx6agXG6AP8Ieu5j5hHE2beqq60QXY= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:5349:b0:4e2:a5b9:df1d with SMTP id ada2fe7eead31-4e9c284031cmr6531333137.8.1750636234645; Sun, 22 Jun 2025 16:50:34 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2025 19:50:24 -0400 X-Gm-Features: Ac12FXz3180R-udDRSF84Cx61EJBycyv_-O6U3sTiMTzIMK2utyF45dYDJQWwMI Message-ID: Subject: Re: RFC: Can FreeBSD stream Netflix? To: Rick Macklem Cc: freebsd-hackers Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.07 / 15.00]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.99)[0.987]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.76)[0.761]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.67)[-0.675]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20230601]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; MISSING_XM_UA(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[hackers@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::a2d:from]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[hackers@freebsd.org]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROMTLD(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bQSdX4JfMz3fBR X-Spamd-Bar: + You can get brower extensions that will lie about the user agent to make it look like it basically any browser on any OS you want. On Sun, Jun 22, 2025 at 7:48=E2=80=AFPM Rick Macklem wrote: > > Hi, > > When I'm not tinkering with NFS I'm just a dumbass user, > so here's a dumbass user question... > > The background (you can just skip to the question at the end > but maybe you'll find this useful. > I have two old Dell laptops (6420s) that I picked up used and > they've done ok, but both now have flakey hdds. > > #1 - hdd died completely, so I installed FreeBSD and it went > pretty smoothly. It runs Xorg, KDE etc and works pretty well. > But I can't get it to do one all important thing. > Stream Netflix. (I've tried assorted browsers, but always get > the "you should upgrade your browser" treatment.) > > #2 - Runs Win10 and does stream Netflix, but is throwing lots of > hdd errors, so it only a matter of time before I'll need to > replace the hdd. Once I do that, I have three choices: > a) Install FreeBSD, but only if I can get it to stream Netflix. > b) Install Linux. (Some posts claim Linux distros with up > to date browsers can stream Netflix?) > c) Install Win10 and run FreeBSD in a VM or dual boot it. > > I'd prefer (a), which leads to the all important question... > > Is there someone out there that runs FreeBSD on a laptop or > desktop who can stream Netflix? > If you can answer "yes", can you recall how you installed it > to make this work? > > Thanks in advance for any answers, rick > --=20 Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org