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[89.241.205.78]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ffacd0b85a97d-3c711d9f3a8sm11309178f8f.62.2025.08.25.04.56.55 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 25 Aug 2025 04:56:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2025 12:56:54 +0100 List-Id: Packaging the FreeBSD base system List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-pkgbase List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: freebsd-update and pkgbase To: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Cc: re@freebsd.org References: From: Graham Perrin Content-Language: en-GB Autocrypt: addr=grahamperrin@gmail.com; keydata= xsFNBGKYt7ABEAClu83dJ3ZKfVgPOk9YKRv0Z+dl2b88+k9R4vwAmElgguYdKE7yhnQNhhWM v9vi6AFrBMc2oJdVHJ2OrXfwpELBFIgiSMEWNsC4e+Z3HtSajcl+pFZsP7ciiSoycj/w3wIV kAZoVGbhyIbNG7fbCEJ8q81TbfsGypV3bRmbZVvGNecBguYiooBtz2Qht1p3itXMkIA6P9pS YDl+6QddZLyUUAjAnFv2QDoYSHLnaDUWw4oONZsB0SKVu8jMIBh4uJZoYEOvdvc9jQQdOpA2 CAgA6ulfm42Ikr9lKBUUCtjqiWAhJ7iXOTyHAIdR4Mf8alCE6tdTq6dHdIt+GktTY7oYNyL2 3aD3C7I5waU0SFXvJcOMG10QLfwYQMOQoYQ9XJ0U5A28WYiDcylDdUWT7SappP1e1ZMeJWWO y14mxxNzHaJSI4rK8P/p5tp3Q7SSC4k5gMh9zKba3K2ApCWNbVLGvXsJeQkZZNvu70tE81ey AHI5iZcB6D7WaHysBUmsKaEpbcmm1ZThTnGL0SHEl5to5Jab5Fg6O+Cnly5sVz5lX/v8Aosx kKNei7SCVqXOVtteQeGxWbXWbhPgbMyc0Gi3DuxBI/yvJ43k/rJysQlLGLWfJx/UXprwLluC PDK9EvKEB+fD1Z349uzp1sKr3ihpySbyKI8fpudftnAz4EsoCwARAQABzSZHcmFoYW0gUGVy cmluIDxncmFoYW1wZXJyaW5AZ21haWwuY29tPsLBlAQTAQoAPhYhBFk/5bLDBwftvJcvCrdn SG9KGNQLBQJoRALAAhsDBQkPEg5ABQsJCAcDBRUKCQgLBRYDAgEAAh4FAheAAAoJELdnSG9K GNQL8YkP/2V1z6XQDyG1QlKAu8TuE8zDWy9QQKjC/G44hlu5zk+2kWSNk4zeExs9ZXOBmVhF EW1d+1J8wDiYIeKYj/rqMoP+gb8o0Au0lSRitvTdLxkZBFGMn0CEzlDOzv+wmiy0ggAV/s+Y EbiHk12fI0LoTy5/ywdmG/uGS7M6p3XOrM0YO1qmLXy1cUyYDsYIpq5/rT0QzpGowsJLoEA3 zz1vfKVY+RTorsL4W8ljXLmcs4c3b3HZG9Xmgtt+Ni/eb9CjzM7kCXOcSMnVzvfscCowPAwB 0ZHlNxNV0MTa61xgvOCk4Zf278ArRgbTm4oOz9Z4ciPMnVue+9P/VdxIxgUuYkAryM0+agGz L9bd8ljn+efNtgZ5dlDLrNnTE+vWnMVlMXgl7BNnhwHg7UYFLrC2xklsICub0qpnNheTGeqo 0N4UongJTQJ6H6LEpgd+KMkCncAHghED/G0/BUdO90VEOoqnIKwKa+F9NqVMvHWc8D58mwCP FghsmxK9FM9pnsjLmG7u+s51Y7++GSRnU4NkI4tHiVk7hcAcvZuc0QbUDwVMTurDUgIqRo6W 80j1tFjEspkrwtMoeVFEkDHktjoc3AoEymXIncZfqIqi3nVseyDVyNByvkV0mutX9hXqac0/ RXMuyK9KniAUZ9+gsWs4rPs/DOdsw4K8/RnjduBrfCYQzsFNBGKYt7ABEADRb1tZuh7DPYET 0wK6fe7owbYgM+RfKhmcrGgR2HI9M2q6+0WKF/ITnggWdIW2Ecc4z2boLz/cwvPGCS7/YxZM 61KklGCwuS7q1s04XnHDWHuFxfXQPzAdVmNO3bYoMZbJjHXs6sB2u5ksiwPwaMAWWaGkviSj c5pwvHCiTmX5vH5CBj/Vi+5ESyX38vK4JM5S/m4ouI/6M9biyFgimV+v3vVyCxJCT1gI9g4o GIh1qq5S433b1fihn4yHPf8XOKyBpA/QcwLONViBqJL5nnOxpsh344rNxn2R7CcRzzicOV+e 2IbMem4lwNWQlZKoRotKXZi9LqN5mynSBYqAUdoZum0QinWT9F22B0Qex5PH1zAt9i2W91Vd kcPB3LwkRXj07ycRtsSzpgPA6fLc6AsoWFslHl8kVOO5eJIA4xhjlPa+W8lguQHZ0iX+5uAv 2eAgXR2swADuHPuENNFStmsgAMl8OOOgtq75yA5TpyIzxMuXV9Nmp0VfIaUM/IdLdmxhc1pC c320l5fYMHVLFAReWEbSj2QH8YzWfpXHIegutWWYEbH9SiDXgS9KoKmCJV/Qa+x6/b8y3pOZ vnIbCDaynC2Yr50s8gRa9kb54JE8Z+p8r16U3SEsK3PtUi0RF0e51danCVHrrE6/Hat2XUO/ 6nnYgVgFOrLao6Gh/VMs8wARAQABwsF8BBgBCgAmFiEEWT/lssMHB+28ly8Kt2dIb0oY1AsF AmhEAsACGwwFCQ8SDkAACgkQt2dIb0oY1AvQxw//REWYFK2m4yS/QP5kzfhkWcNqDI/akGT5 /LXmdmbc1s78+mOMXnA4vBY/+X1QatgxWUECkPDOiIwXJMxoBuyY8e7spLRXeyhtfh5aYaJc MO5bARX0c49v+KfZ80u9tG2rkKQvAt/ySo7OXsbDADFFRhlc8RLbb8e7bSctGbYZk9CYa0ya dW5+n3znDNJ6yW1skx9wTH+Y8VlSazRLk3XgXscNqBA2h56v3WS/R5dI++7AQxZxSQacQvfj 9eahq7ATdB4zMQ9MBHEwOvGD3DLlc55FYSDZvNX+mhnK7S0t1Nt2EtGUOmXb5ysMFGnbsce0 woKQ0sLPF1HWDAAf7tBCF8mpPIzU/ViAkupsJ6NYCD0tLFD8pvl0NYU2TjvyWh6ie3e5B/b3 8Daiyme+M92ivfoRQOFKmkPfeT14AI6OW1k7qFbmoIwMWWQdFWAl1CP9hNdF9gRN4rFB0Jy1 90BajZW2zOdVfqdurJZegCzAowZalLm4JEK2MklpPzipibnJqhLOmvJy587pF52KDdM/4rLy BBREIm7uRivnO5k/BY5qS+H/aqv97LC0PVaTsLXbDmTxTnJplUpdlYT9NGidM+x/ioS0iztO Cht7cT8V8jvvKZYvNpst8iqxuIaoV9V7aZ0wAQpkgDGXHmSzwtz6U8xNf/4e4sLn9KPlldSd kvo= In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20230601]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36:c]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[grahamperrin]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::432:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4c9TmV4V9Hz4LRT On 19/08/2025 17:02, Mark Johnston wrote: > Adding freebsd-arch@ and re@ to see if anyone not on -pkgbase has > opinions here. Omitting freebsd-arch@ (for no more than two lists), > On Wed, Aug 06, 2025 at 05:17:19PM -0400, Mark Johnston wrote: >> The future of freebsd-update post 15.0 isn't totally clear. … I assume that it will be absent from, or unusable with, 15.0-RELEASE. >From : "… needs to be removed or at least neutered". >> I propose extending freebsd-update … Gut feeling: for a successor to freebsd-update, it will help to have a distinctive name for the tool. Thanks From nobody Mon Aug 25 12:28:24 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4c9VSp2v29z65jVb for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2025 12:28:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R13" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4c9VSp28BHz4PtV; Mon, 25 Aug 2025 12:28:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1756124906; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=lL/DVkxep/zFqYv43GV1Alawo0vZyi/K+9YXISrGYdw=; b=FYvF+SzIxWkyT6RZTT7BBIu3OB7qJqNHj1PX8HehuXB0dEHLVh8k7Vup8L7c6hj7DohvmL IMe0LEkAV7xFA9nhtss7H80LxYISnL2AaSzx3WlVBoNgi9qBCa5NOJOA4FfTp0i/1+mGaj EHA9fEIotFxL/01UY0Vm2iLqKBXWxOTyG0yndUNh3tqP+3LdHhplchQqfODD/+L4VmAhKR nz+fLITBF30tQQ8dePrGwQJc5voTjTU9FQ68tHQ5lnjwBPMBsdnI9/M70Ivq8GqslpPYlv azx0vcQYxMtsAF+txCvsZ32X7Bby0Qa2r6waxGy7KmaRZDfGwXyIfFv6+w6gxQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1756124906; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=lL/DVkxep/zFqYv43GV1Alawo0vZyi/K+9YXISrGYdw=; b=Mjk1TdRBnSg3HOo7zpA7Gu0GPOpq0t2XPi5kJlrpEQVv7WVUblSy5tDE4z6ZmI3sqAFlwp AfD5qrCTwj7QH/j/PV7VvlchXV3rKtql0nod7XXmVx70g5v2cg8cBgVRq2i35ENNH52GwS ud0zVi93gx8J7/nYHN/7CDVRtXSaUhPmhbmf7gzRX+L50AtN27Eymk/ZNEokUAz7nul9A5 GHV0IlcKQSnRop7MWe6gx45tlb+xHi0zyd/N0XIpTGlMVVVAUi5oizQEJJGNJxI7/zDovf qzzhjRsDDi9GIzxCr+KpiGIpHfyDZuEJYUQ/5hvITlkh5GebB07graterbM9ug== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1756124906; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=Udo514dugGRMTgyubuqjUIr2JO2ew+VMqr97MRlk7FZ5vRZ+PfVKbK3pSwQwfcpwv/jDAX GhiQVwwpT9hU8m7vyL9MXNpyhvzMhn+vEK1TpeNks9lYtkS+ZK1/0YYN940GKmUk4mSxkd re9efT/M9A1A0ZQU8gzTaPtZwpRK5K3SwvRLCJRT09+8xxyCjs2t7Q6rAJEqzx3fpZ2MVD Bp8B2B6B8sjwa90hvE+HyhAYkkWdaZcCrPKZCErvS9dGgHoQrmp7H4ZNHf2dXPwoURBGAi 9lzagaR98ORkGwnFVf+k+mkciu2hUY7VcFbxpEiEV9UQbs7I2uHw3HgAnGTLVg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from ltc.des.dev (88-177-82-251.subs.proxad.net [88.177.82.251]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: des) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4c9VSp0kCyz1S6y; Mon, 25 Aug 2025 12:28:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@freebsd.org) Received: by ltc.des.dev (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 3B8713C12E; Mon, 25 Aug 2025 14:28:24 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Graham Perrin Cc: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, re@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd-update and pkgbase In-Reply-To: (Graham Perrin's message of "Mon, 25 Aug 2025 12:56:54 +0100") References: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2025 14:28:24 +0200 Message-ID: <86tt1vvb4n.fsf@ltc.des.dev> List-Id: Packaging the FreeBSD base system List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-pkgbase List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Graham Perrin writes: > I assume that it will be absent from, or unusable with, 15.0-RELEASE. You assume wrong, and perhaps you should check who you're replying to... > Gut feeling: for a successor to freebsd-update, it will help to have a > distinctive name for the tool. Why would a tool that updates FreeBSD not be named freebsd-update? 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[89.241.205.78]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 5b1f17b1804b1-45b57499143sm106457675e9.26.2025.08.25.05.34.50 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 25 Aug 2025 05:34:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30d1e0c1-6edd-430f-8cc2-9d4debaa564f@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2025 13:34:50 +0100 List-Id: Packaging the FreeBSD base system List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-pkgbase List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: freebsd-update and pkgbase To: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Cc: re@freebsd.org References: <20250820011537.7a3ccb3e@nuclight.lan> From: Graham Perrin Content-Language: en-GB Autocrypt: addr=grahamperrin@gmail.com; keydata= xsFNBGKYt7ABEAClu83dJ3ZKfVgPOk9YKRv0Z+dl2b88+k9R4vwAmElgguYdKE7yhnQNhhWM v9vi6AFrBMc2oJdVHJ2OrXfwpELBFIgiSMEWNsC4e+Z3HtSajcl+pFZsP7ciiSoycj/w3wIV kAZoVGbhyIbNG7fbCEJ8q81TbfsGypV3bRmbZVvGNecBguYiooBtz2Qht1p3itXMkIA6P9pS YDl+6QddZLyUUAjAnFv2QDoYSHLnaDUWw4oONZsB0SKVu8jMIBh4uJZoYEOvdvc9jQQdOpA2 CAgA6ulfm42Ikr9lKBUUCtjqiWAhJ7iXOTyHAIdR4Mf8alCE6tdTq6dHdIt+GktTY7oYNyL2 3aD3C7I5waU0SFXvJcOMG10QLfwYQMOQoYQ9XJ0U5A28WYiDcylDdUWT7SappP1e1ZMeJWWO y14mxxNzHaJSI4rK8P/p5tp3Q7SSC4k5gMh9zKba3K2ApCWNbVLGvXsJeQkZZNvu70tE81ey AHI5iZcB6D7WaHysBUmsKaEpbcmm1ZThTnGL0SHEl5to5Jab5Fg6O+Cnly5sVz5lX/v8Aosx kKNei7SCVqXOVtteQeGxWbXWbhPgbMyc0Gi3DuxBI/yvJ43k/rJysQlLGLWfJx/UXprwLluC PDK9EvKEB+fD1Z349uzp1sKr3ihpySbyKI8fpudftnAz4EsoCwARAQABzSZHcmFoYW0gUGVy cmluIDxncmFoYW1wZXJyaW5AZ21haWwuY29tPsLBlAQTAQoAPhYhBFk/5bLDBwftvJcvCrdn SG9KGNQLBQJoRALAAhsDBQkPEg5ABQsJCAcDBRUKCQgLBRYDAgEAAh4FAheAAAoJELdnSG9K GNQL8YkP/2V1z6XQDyG1QlKAu8TuE8zDWy9QQKjC/G44hlu5zk+2kWSNk4zeExs9ZXOBmVhF EW1d+1J8wDiYIeKYj/rqMoP+gb8o0Au0lSRitvTdLxkZBFGMn0CEzlDOzv+wmiy0ggAV/s+Y EbiHk12fI0LoTy5/ywdmG/uGS7M6p3XOrM0YO1qmLXy1cUyYDsYIpq5/rT0QzpGowsJLoEA3 zz1vfKVY+RTorsL4W8ljXLmcs4c3b3HZG9Xmgtt+Ni/eb9CjzM7kCXOcSMnVzvfscCowPAwB 0ZHlNxNV0MTa61xgvOCk4Zf278ArRgbTm4oOz9Z4ciPMnVue+9P/VdxIxgUuYkAryM0+agGz L9bd8ljn+efNtgZ5dlDLrNnTE+vWnMVlMXgl7BNnhwHg7UYFLrC2xklsICub0qpnNheTGeqo 0N4UongJTQJ6H6LEpgd+KMkCncAHghED/G0/BUdO90VEOoqnIKwKa+F9NqVMvHWc8D58mwCP FghsmxK9FM9pnsjLmG7u+s51Y7++GSRnU4NkI4tHiVk7hcAcvZuc0QbUDwVMTurDUgIqRo6W 80j1tFjEspkrwtMoeVFEkDHktjoc3AoEymXIncZfqIqi3nVseyDVyNByvkV0mutX9hXqac0/ RXMuyK9KniAUZ9+gsWs4rPs/DOdsw4K8/RnjduBrfCYQzsFNBGKYt7ABEADRb1tZuh7DPYET 0wK6fe7owbYgM+RfKhmcrGgR2HI9M2q6+0WKF/ITnggWdIW2Ecc4z2boLz/cwvPGCS7/YxZM 61KklGCwuS7q1s04XnHDWHuFxfXQPzAdVmNO3bYoMZbJjHXs6sB2u5ksiwPwaMAWWaGkviSj c5pwvHCiTmX5vH5CBj/Vi+5ESyX38vK4JM5S/m4ouI/6M9biyFgimV+v3vVyCxJCT1gI9g4o GIh1qq5S433b1fihn4yHPf8XOKyBpA/QcwLONViBqJL5nnOxpsh344rNxn2R7CcRzzicOV+e 2IbMem4lwNWQlZKoRotKXZi9LqN5mynSBYqAUdoZum0QinWT9F22B0Qex5PH1zAt9i2W91Vd kcPB3LwkRXj07ycRtsSzpgPA6fLc6AsoWFslHl8kVOO5eJIA4xhjlPa+W8lguQHZ0iX+5uAv 2eAgXR2swADuHPuENNFStmsgAMl8OOOgtq75yA5TpyIzxMuXV9Nmp0VfIaUM/IdLdmxhc1pC c320l5fYMHVLFAReWEbSj2QH8YzWfpXHIegutWWYEbH9SiDXgS9KoKmCJV/Qa+x6/b8y3pOZ vnIbCDaynC2Yr50s8gRa9kb54JE8Z+p8r16U3SEsK3PtUi0RF0e51danCVHrrE6/Hat2XUO/ 6nnYgVgFOrLao6Gh/VMs8wARAQABwsF8BBgBCgAmFiEEWT/lssMHB+28ly8Kt2dIb0oY1AsF AmhEAsACGwwFCQ8SDkAACgkQt2dIb0oY1AvQxw//REWYFK2m4yS/QP5kzfhkWcNqDI/akGT5 /LXmdmbc1s78+mOMXnA4vBY/+X1QatgxWUECkPDOiIwXJMxoBuyY8e7spLRXeyhtfh5aYaJc MO5bARX0c49v+KfZ80u9tG2rkKQvAt/ySo7OXsbDADFFRhlc8RLbb8e7bSctGbYZk9CYa0ya dW5+n3znDNJ6yW1skx9wTH+Y8VlSazRLk3XgXscNqBA2h56v3WS/R5dI++7AQxZxSQacQvfj 9eahq7ATdB4zMQ9MBHEwOvGD3DLlc55FYSDZvNX+mhnK7S0t1Nt2EtGUOmXb5ysMFGnbsce0 woKQ0sLPF1HWDAAf7tBCF8mpPIzU/ViAkupsJ6NYCD0tLFD8pvl0NYU2TjvyWh6ie3e5B/b3 8Daiyme+M92ivfoRQOFKmkPfeT14AI6OW1k7qFbmoIwMWWQdFWAl1CP9hNdF9gRN4rFB0Jy1 90BajZW2zOdVfqdurJZegCzAowZalLm4JEK2MklpPzipibnJqhLOmvJy587pF52KDdM/4rLy BBREIm7uRivnO5k/BY5qS+H/aqv97LC0PVaTsLXbDmTxTnJplUpdlYT9NGidM+x/ioS0iztO Cht7cT8V8jvvKZYvNpst8iqxuIaoV9V7aZ0wAQpkgDGXHmSzwtz6U8xNf/4e4sLn9KPlldSd kvo= In-Reply-To: <20250820011537.7a3ccb3e@nuclight.lan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20230601]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[grahamperrin]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::330:from]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4c9VcM0WYlz4Qhp On 19/08/2025 23:15, Vadim Goncharov wrote: > … As was said earlier, the whole pkgbase idea in it's current form is > harmful, … Not really. It's a fine idea. I can't find a matching email in my local archives, can you provide a link? Thanks. 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Tue, 26 Aug 2025 06:16:41 GMT (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) Received: (from www@localhost) by kenobi.freebsd.org (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 57Q6GfX8041928 for pkgbase@FreeBSD.org; Tue, 26 Aug 2025 06:16:41 GMT (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) X-Authentication-Warning: kenobi.freebsd.org: www set sender to bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org using -f From: bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org To: pkgbase@FreeBSD.org Subject: [Bug 289097] Base upgrades must not lose user customisations in dot files such as /root/.cshrc and /root/.profile Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2025 06:16:41 +0000 X-Bugzilla-Reason: CC X-Bugzilla-Type: changed X-Bugzilla-Watch-Reason: None X-Bugzilla-Product: Base System X-Bugzilla-Component: conf X-Bugzilla-Version: 14.3-RELEASE X-Bugzilla-Keywords: pkgbase X-Bugzilla-Severity: Affects Many People X-Bugzilla-Who: ivy@FreeBSD.org X-Bugzilla-Status: New X-Bugzilla-Resolution: X-Bugzilla-Priority: --- X-Bugzilla-Assigned-To: ivy@FreeBSD.org X-Bugzilla-Flags: X-Bugzilla-Changed-Fields: cc assigned_to Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Bugzilla-URL: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/ Auto-Submitted: auto-generated List-Id: Packaging the FreeBSD base system List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-pkgbase List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D289097 Lexi Winter changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- CC| |ivy@FreeBSD.org, | |pkgbase@FreeBSD.org Assignee|bugs@FreeBSD.org |ivy@FreeBSD.org --=20 You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.= From nobody Tue Aug 26 07:24:39 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4c9zgt1JQ9z66PFv; Tue, 26 Aug 2025 07:24:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R13" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4c9zgt0GGbz3XLb; 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Tue, 26 Aug 2025 07:24:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@freebsd.org) Received: by b.nours.eu (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C81BE14BEA; Tue, 26 Aug 2025 09:24:39 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2025 09:24:39 +0200 From: Baptiste Daroussin To: Vadim Goncharov Cc: Mark Johnston , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, re@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd-update and pkgbase Message-ID: References: <20250820011537.7a3ccb3e@nuclight.lan> List-Id: Packaging the FreeBSD base system List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-pkgbase List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20250820011537.7a3ccb3e@nuclight.lan> On Wed 20 Aug 01:15, Vadim Goncharov wrote: > On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 12:02:20 -0400 > Mark Johnston wrote: > > > Adding freebsd-arch@ and re@ to see if anyone not on -pkgbase has > > opinions here. > > > > On Wed, Aug 06, 2025 at 05:17:19PM -0400, Mark Johnston wrote: > > > The future of freebsd-update post 15.0 isn't totally clear. There have > > > been proposals to remove it in 15.0. IMO we can't remove it outright, > > > since may be needed in order to upgrade 13.x and 14.x jails on a 15.0 > > > host. It is also a shame to lose a simple upgrade utility that is > > > well-documented and that many users are familiar with; compare > > > "freebsd-update upgrade -r 14.3-RELEASE" with the upgrade instructions > > > on the pkgbase wiki page. > > > > > > pkgbase offers a lot of flexibility but I suspect many users don't need > > > it; they need a one-shot "upgrade my system, please" utility that will > > > automatically create a boot environment, configure pkg repositories as > > > needed for major/minor/security upgrades, fetch packages, and handle > > > package installation order (i.e., kernel first, followed by a reboot). > > Of course. As was said earlier, the whole pkgbase idea in it's current form is > harmful, leading to unexpected breakages etc. after mass deployment, not > mentioning not very good quality of pkg itself. About pkg quality, there is a way to improve that: report issues, contribute code, contribute unit tests etc. > > The whole distinction between base and ports (packages) is (was) major FreeBSD > strength, compared to Linux distros or just plain "zfs delete /usr/local" if > something goes wrong. > > May be freebsd-update will be redone to be just a frontend to pkg, may be > some other way, but the whole wall between base and ports must continue to > exist. > I think it probably should be even special fork of pkg(8) for pkgbase, just as > private (renamed) versions of some ports libraries exist in the base (like > sqlite or expat). sqlite is made to be bundled, in particular we are carefully cherrypicking features, as for expat, pkg does not use expat at all for years (removed in 2020). Best regards, Bapt From nobody Tue Aug 26 07:31:15 2025 X-Original-To: pkgbase@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4c9zqR1N3qz66PPj for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2025 07:31:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) Received: from mxrelay.nyi.freebsd.org (mxrelay.nyi.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:3]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mxrelay.nyi.freebsd.org", Issuer "R12" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4c9zqR0jgNz3Y6L for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2025 07:31:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1756193475; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; 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Tue, 26 Aug 2025 07:31:14 GMT (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) Received: (from www@localhost) by kenobi.freebsd.org (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 57Q7VEfS052652 for pkgbase@FreeBSD.org; Tue, 26 Aug 2025 07:31:14 GMT (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) X-Authentication-Warning: kenobi.freebsd.org: www set sender to bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org using -f From: bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org To: pkgbase@FreeBSD.org Subject: [Bug 289097] Base upgrades must not lose user customisations in dot files such as /root/.cshrc and /root/.profile Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2025 07:31:15 +0000 X-Bugzilla-Reason: CC X-Bugzilla-Type: changed X-Bugzilla-Watch-Reason: None X-Bugzilla-Product: Base System X-Bugzilla-Component: conf X-Bugzilla-Version: 14.3-RELEASE X-Bugzilla-Keywords: pkgbase X-Bugzilla-Severity: Affects Many People X-Bugzilla-Who: ivy@FreeBSD.org X-Bugzilla-Status: In Progress X-Bugzilla-Resolution: X-Bugzilla-Priority: --- X-Bugzilla-Assigned-To: ivy@FreeBSD.org X-Bugzilla-Flags: X-Bugzilla-Changed-Fields: bug_status Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Bugzilla-URL: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/ Auto-Submitted: auto-generated List-Id: Packaging the FreeBSD base system List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-pkgbase List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D289097 Lexi Winter changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Status|New |In Progress --- Comment #3 from Lexi Winter --- this is because the hard links /.profile and /.cshrc are missing the config tag, which makes pkg overwrite them instead of attempting to merge changes. for main, we already removed /.cshrc, so we can just remove /.profile as we= ll: https://reviews.freebsd.org/D52161 for stable/14, adding the config tag to the links in / works around the problem: https://reviews.freebsd.org/D52162 --=20 You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.= From nobody Tue Aug 26 12:00:07 2025 X-Original-To: pkgbase@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4cB5nh0fLdz65SfT for ; 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mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from kenobi.freebsd.org (kenobi.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::50:1d]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mxrelay.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4cB5ng6M8yzc5k for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2025 12:00:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) Received: from kenobi.freebsd.org ([127.0.1.5]) by kenobi.freebsd.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 57QC07pJ074648 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2025 12:00:07 GMT (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) Received: (from www@localhost) by kenobi.freebsd.org (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 57QC07YW074647 for pkgbase@FreeBSD.org; Tue, 26 Aug 2025 12:00:07 GMT (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) X-Authentication-Warning: kenobi.freebsd.org: www set sender to bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org using -f From: bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org To: pkgbase@FreeBSD.org Subject: [Bug 289097] Base upgrades must not lose user customisations in dot files such as /root/.cshrc and /root/.profile Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2025 12:00:07 +0000 X-Bugzilla-Reason: CC X-Bugzilla-Type: changed X-Bugzilla-Watch-Reason: None X-Bugzilla-Product: Base System X-Bugzilla-Component: conf X-Bugzilla-Version: 14.3-RELEASE X-Bugzilla-Keywords: pkgbase X-Bugzilla-Severity: Affects Many People X-Bugzilla-Who: grahamperrin@gmail.com X-Bugzilla-Status: In Progress X-Bugzilla-Resolution: X-Bugzilla-Priority: --- X-Bugzilla-Assigned-To: ivy@FreeBSD.org X-Bugzilla-Flags: X-Bugzilla-Changed-Fields: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Bugzilla-URL: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/ Auto-Submitted: auto-generated List-Id: Packaging the FreeBSD base system List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-pkgbase List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D289097 --- Comment #4 from Graham Perrin --- Thank you!=20 I should have thought of /.cshrc (subscription to , plus I manually removed /.cshrc.pkgsa= ve from one of my test VMs before making this report).=20 /etc/csh.cshrc and=20 /etc/profile are already good, customisations do survive an upgrade. /usr/share/skel/dot.cshrc and=20 /usr/share/skel/dot.profile lose customisation, I treat these as out of sco= pe because there's no etc/ context. Re: comment 0 I have a question, which I'll not raise in Bugzilla or via em= ail; I might ping you in Mastodon. --=20 You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.= From nobody Tue Aug 26 22:09:32 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4cBMK22RmVz66Bxg for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2025 22:09:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from grahamperrin@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wr1-x42c.google.com (mail-wr1-x42c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4cBMK11PS6z3QKr; Tue, 26 Aug 2025 22:09:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from grahamperrin@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=XQE3irZW; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of grahamperrin@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::42c as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=grahamperrin@gmail.com Received: by mail-wr1-x42c.google.com with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-3c985f13d45so191220f8f.1; Tue, 26 Aug 2025 15:09:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1756246174; x=1756850974; darn=freebsd.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:autocrypt:content-language :from:references:cc:to:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date :message-id:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=xyRqlaF5Z1TJX3xlSHE1DjCoiTRIuKUWd7MkNXhn1z8=; b=XQE3irZWukbmPuVCGhzVgm969ftJuaYlQNL5ekZphFiL1dwWR7Mtd9q/wOaxcqBE/2 CnmWegq0Da8LNHqXiYVd+gVYxmziNqv+tdeh9rsZRvivLqO3MHKKGPZUsOtD3PLDhJvd 0EBdY4SAbKDyHV0eDTOFzeKJUCjZd2m8YZjouwBEBF25x5ifmXVntm7fIhEUZddk65pu g+bh2NXuHKsJOmZEQtLgW7iJqFwPrP8bsI3+GMPoB8XXdIMQp8INtH/N/uJtODTCVNb9 uBOGzcYfBojPLdaaliIT6Wrp7BSZQALvPDbbbz4YyEKTJ+jqCvZQv6obN1mkRYGLYId3 07Bg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1756246174; x=1756850974; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:autocrypt:content-language :from:references:cc:to:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date :message-id:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=xyRqlaF5Z1TJX3xlSHE1DjCoiTRIuKUWd7MkNXhn1z8=; b=bhdKxA3KgIy+gueL5n6XABQgrvcz1cDKsMCF8ekHNZkhjqcVnWbOpDQfjNIZOur9WE cmSMbYec0UzNrzhgDWYcuVZIE/+crRPav0Ia0BFTIdmMy7A4s6x4pFTMYdbclXtzQkuR meLGqlzA5BaWAVTG+N6qEl2Dlm09zq1Rvz1IfzdTqtN0TE1FKUwsfOijjIhuoE4Rx+R0 k8Ab9MCqRUZs33uPAYZtucZFs4SJ0JZ3zWn3JSArplidynoNoNNmKC9su+zzVzx/MGEF ArvwiF8i/Ih94u/PKs2Rcy6s/bav9hqiTIQ46HEJgRi3DVUSAk75OJ5VdYYRBk/SvkJM 1Idg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxFTJ1NThIdU1RPPWp5CXA402I6P95ltkwbMePqb3rQN0lphMun i2HyQ2I0ppap+oAloeL4Lp3TF3qJI4VG7NMnxDrZR9iL28zdtbgLnJwNqwCnQA== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncsOf/RvQgUk3QfCEO7dMBXyz2Z60c1/kOpo2wofan8X7+JnFF+Wt+p5+RdMXXF 2FON9eY34wecs19T8qJrzKmSlz3oFLAmB+8YypR9Y3S9TxoHDnWtbJ2bAxLqsftMTgM90SF2/Uv XRaiJUGodMv0rOkNPpe4Tp/s5ffZa1ZaRvexyc88CoAKWwLfiymtgpC4SIX8+7jSSOuloWdkFBo JRnH3BAl39tdeSZaP15HcqIY6caE4rkNqH8KV7FBrtNCM3FWg5fFWhTaIAwjPlrA/Lu/GJQF896 Cmv65jqGmzdlj8CnGZtiwI50pBJkKDgTY66cHJQl1Vi7tyV6dONMUJfaZAuzASNexRtcQe/TCPr PRyWOEl89VTzUeThDhiuC8dKInc6PkFti2oLsAc58uPcMtw9LD6Rr1lweXTE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHukgo+Ek4YIR2triDt6gYdt3ZaCKByzr0qx5iZ+PKqTf4mN9EzGehv97lrpGeAKwaHF0P1uQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6000:2212:b0:3c5:91be:2abb with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-3cbb15cb064mr2493744f8f.13.1756246173334; Tue, 26 Aug 2025 15:09:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.4] (host-89-241-205-78.as13285.net. [89.241.205.78]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ffacd0b85a97d-3c70e4ba390sm18887156f8f.12.2025.08.26.15.09.32 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 26 Aug 2025 15:09:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2025 23:09:32 +0100 List-Id: Packaging the FreeBSD base system List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-pkgbase List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: pkg upgrade (was: freebsd-update and pkgbase) To: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Cc: re@freebsd.org References: <20250820011537.7a3ccb3e@nuclight.lan> <39020a5b-a218-43d3-8c9c-945787c74561@quip.cz> From: Graham Perrin Content-Language: en-GB Autocrypt: addr=grahamperrin@gmail.com; keydata= xsFNBGKYt7ABEAClu83dJ3ZKfVgPOk9YKRv0Z+dl2b88+k9R4vwAmElgguYdKE7yhnQNhhWM v9vi6AFrBMc2oJdVHJ2OrXfwpELBFIgiSMEWNsC4e+Z3HtSajcl+pFZsP7ciiSoycj/w3wIV kAZoVGbhyIbNG7fbCEJ8q81TbfsGypV3bRmbZVvGNecBguYiooBtz2Qht1p3itXMkIA6P9pS YDl+6QddZLyUUAjAnFv2QDoYSHLnaDUWw4oONZsB0SKVu8jMIBh4uJZoYEOvdvc9jQQdOpA2 CAgA6ulfm42Ikr9lKBUUCtjqiWAhJ7iXOTyHAIdR4Mf8alCE6tdTq6dHdIt+GktTY7oYNyL2 3aD3C7I5waU0SFXvJcOMG10QLfwYQMOQoYQ9XJ0U5A28WYiDcylDdUWT7SappP1e1ZMeJWWO y14mxxNzHaJSI4rK8P/p5tp3Q7SSC4k5gMh9zKba3K2ApCWNbVLGvXsJeQkZZNvu70tE81ey AHI5iZcB6D7WaHysBUmsKaEpbcmm1ZThTnGL0SHEl5to5Jab5Fg6O+Cnly5sVz5lX/v8Aosx kKNei7SCVqXOVtteQeGxWbXWbhPgbMyc0Gi3DuxBI/yvJ43k/rJysQlLGLWfJx/UXprwLluC PDK9EvKEB+fD1Z349uzp1sKr3ihpySbyKI8fpudftnAz4EsoCwARAQABzSZHcmFoYW0gUGVy cmluIDxncmFoYW1wZXJyaW5AZ21haWwuY29tPsLBlAQTAQoAPhYhBFk/5bLDBwftvJcvCrdn SG9KGNQLBQJoRALAAhsDBQkPEg5ABQsJCAcDBRUKCQgLBRYDAgEAAh4FAheAAAoJELdnSG9K GNQL8YkP/2V1z6XQDyG1QlKAu8TuE8zDWy9QQKjC/G44hlu5zk+2kWSNk4zeExs9ZXOBmVhF EW1d+1J8wDiYIeKYj/rqMoP+gb8o0Au0lSRitvTdLxkZBFGMn0CEzlDOzv+wmiy0ggAV/s+Y EbiHk12fI0LoTy5/ywdmG/uGS7M6p3XOrM0YO1qmLXy1cUyYDsYIpq5/rT0QzpGowsJLoEA3 zz1vfKVY+RTorsL4W8ljXLmcs4c3b3HZG9Xmgtt+Ni/eb9CjzM7kCXOcSMnVzvfscCowPAwB 0ZHlNxNV0MTa61xgvOCk4Zf278ArRgbTm4oOz9Z4ciPMnVue+9P/VdxIxgUuYkAryM0+agGz L9bd8ljn+efNtgZ5dlDLrNnTE+vWnMVlMXgl7BNnhwHg7UYFLrC2xklsICub0qpnNheTGeqo 0N4UongJTQJ6H6LEpgd+KMkCncAHghED/G0/BUdO90VEOoqnIKwKa+F9NqVMvHWc8D58mwCP FghsmxK9FM9pnsjLmG7u+s51Y7++GSRnU4NkI4tHiVk7hcAcvZuc0QbUDwVMTurDUgIqRo6W 80j1tFjEspkrwtMoeVFEkDHktjoc3AoEymXIncZfqIqi3nVseyDVyNByvkV0mutX9hXqac0/ RXMuyK9KniAUZ9+gsWs4rPs/DOdsw4K8/RnjduBrfCYQzsFNBGKYt7ABEADRb1tZuh7DPYET 0wK6fe7owbYgM+RfKhmcrGgR2HI9M2q6+0WKF/ITnggWdIW2Ecc4z2boLz/cwvPGCS7/YxZM 61KklGCwuS7q1s04XnHDWHuFxfXQPzAdVmNO3bYoMZbJjHXs6sB2u5ksiwPwaMAWWaGkviSj c5pwvHCiTmX5vH5CBj/Vi+5ESyX38vK4JM5S/m4ouI/6M9biyFgimV+v3vVyCxJCT1gI9g4o GIh1qq5S433b1fihn4yHPf8XOKyBpA/QcwLONViBqJL5nnOxpsh344rNxn2R7CcRzzicOV+e 2IbMem4lwNWQlZKoRotKXZi9LqN5mynSBYqAUdoZum0QinWT9F22B0Qex5PH1zAt9i2W91Vd kcPB3LwkRXj07ycRtsSzpgPA6fLc6AsoWFslHl8kVOO5eJIA4xhjlPa+W8lguQHZ0iX+5uAv 2eAgXR2swADuHPuENNFStmsgAMl8OOOgtq75yA5TpyIzxMuXV9Nmp0VfIaUM/IdLdmxhc1pC c320l5fYMHVLFAReWEbSj2QH8YzWfpXHIegutWWYEbH9SiDXgS9KoKmCJV/Qa+x6/b8y3pOZ vnIbCDaynC2Yr50s8gRa9kb54JE8Z+p8r16U3SEsK3PtUi0RF0e51danCVHrrE6/Hat2XUO/ 6nnYgVgFOrLao6Gh/VMs8wARAQABwsF8BBgBCgAmFiEEWT/lssMHB+28ly8Kt2dIb0oY1AsF AmhEAsACGwwFCQ8SDkAACgkQt2dIb0oY1AvQxw//REWYFK2m4yS/QP5kzfhkWcNqDI/akGT5 /LXmdmbc1s78+mOMXnA4vBY/+X1QatgxWUECkPDOiIwXJMxoBuyY8e7spLRXeyhtfh5aYaJc MO5bARX0c49v+KfZ80u9tG2rkKQvAt/ySo7OXsbDADFFRhlc8RLbb8e7bSctGbYZk9CYa0ya dW5+n3znDNJ6yW1skx9wTH+Y8VlSazRLk3XgXscNqBA2h56v3WS/R5dI++7AQxZxSQacQvfj 9eahq7ATdB4zMQ9MBHEwOvGD3DLlc55FYSDZvNX+mhnK7S0t1Nt2EtGUOmXb5ysMFGnbsce0 woKQ0sLPF1HWDAAf7tBCF8mpPIzU/ViAkupsJ6NYCD0tLFD8pvl0NYU2TjvyWh6ie3e5B/b3 8Daiyme+M92ivfoRQOFKmkPfeT14AI6OW1k7qFbmoIwMWWQdFWAl1CP9hNdF9gRN4rFB0Jy1 90BajZW2zOdVfqdurJZegCzAowZalLm4JEK2MklpPzipibnJqhLOmvJy587pF52KDdM/4rLy BBREIm7uRivnO5k/BY5qS+H/aqv97LC0PVaTsLXbDmTxTnJplUpdlYT9NGidM+x/ioS0iztO Cht7cT8V8jvvKZYvNpst8iqxuIaoV9V7aZ0wAQpkgDGXHmSzwtz6U8xNf/4e4sLn9KPlldSd kvo= In-Reply-To: <39020a5b-a218-43d3-8c9c-945787c74561@quip.cz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.999]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20230601]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[grahamperrin]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::42c:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4cBMK11PS6z3QKr Baptiste's presentation a decade ago, before my time, included the end user perspective for upgrading the system: pkg upgrade Subject lines of the January 2016 update, and the March call for testing included: pkg(8) – and the install command was for installation. I imagined nothing other than the upgrade command for upgrading. Approaches that are coherent are highly valued. pkgbase, as originally intended, can be embraced. Packages, tools, and conventions; with 'pkg upgrade' naturally amongst the conventions. , first sentence: > … package and upgrade the FreeBSD base system using pkg(8). 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[89.241.205.78]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ffacd0b85a97d-3cbf1f5fc1bsm8000643f8f.54.2025.08.27.21.48.53 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 27 Aug 2025 21:48:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2025 05:48:52 +0100 List-Id: Packaging the FreeBSD base system List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-pkgbase List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: vital packages To: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org References: <7C9864FD-BDE8-4527-A6D9-0EC5908D177D.ref@yahoo.com> <7C9864FD-BDE8-4527-A6D9-0EC5908D177D@yahoo.com> <7140136F-FD23-47E1-9383-3B7CA25A0922@FreeBSD.org> From: Graham Perrin Content-Language: en-GB Autocrypt: addr=grahamperrin@gmail.com; keydata= xsFNBGKYt7ABEAClu83dJ3ZKfVgPOk9YKRv0Z+dl2b88+k9R4vwAmElgguYdKE7yhnQNhhWM v9vi6AFrBMc2oJdVHJ2OrXfwpELBFIgiSMEWNsC4e+Z3HtSajcl+pFZsP7ciiSoycj/w3wIV kAZoVGbhyIbNG7fbCEJ8q81TbfsGypV3bRmbZVvGNecBguYiooBtz2Qht1p3itXMkIA6P9pS YDl+6QddZLyUUAjAnFv2QDoYSHLnaDUWw4oONZsB0SKVu8jMIBh4uJZoYEOvdvc9jQQdOpA2 CAgA6ulfm42Ikr9lKBUUCtjqiWAhJ7iXOTyHAIdR4Mf8alCE6tdTq6dHdIt+GktTY7oYNyL2 3aD3C7I5waU0SFXvJcOMG10QLfwYQMOQoYQ9XJ0U5A28WYiDcylDdUWT7SappP1e1ZMeJWWO y14mxxNzHaJSI4rK8P/p5tp3Q7SSC4k5gMh9zKba3K2ApCWNbVLGvXsJeQkZZNvu70tE81ey AHI5iZcB6D7WaHysBUmsKaEpbcmm1ZThTnGL0SHEl5to5Jab5Fg6O+Cnly5sVz5lX/v8Aosx kKNei7SCVqXOVtteQeGxWbXWbhPgbMyc0Gi3DuxBI/yvJ43k/rJysQlLGLWfJx/UXprwLluC PDK9EvKEB+fD1Z349uzp1sKr3ihpySbyKI8fpudftnAz4EsoCwARAQABzSZHcmFoYW0gUGVy cmluIDxncmFoYW1wZXJyaW5AZ21haWwuY29tPsLBlAQTAQoAPhYhBFk/5bLDBwftvJcvCrdn SG9KGNQLBQJoRALAAhsDBQkPEg5ABQsJCAcDBRUKCQgLBRYDAgEAAh4FAheAAAoJELdnSG9K GNQL8YkP/2V1z6XQDyG1QlKAu8TuE8zDWy9QQKjC/G44hlu5zk+2kWSNk4zeExs9ZXOBmVhF EW1d+1J8wDiYIeKYj/rqMoP+gb8o0Au0lSRitvTdLxkZBFGMn0CEzlDOzv+wmiy0ggAV/s+Y EbiHk12fI0LoTy5/ywdmG/uGS7M6p3XOrM0YO1qmLXy1cUyYDsYIpq5/rT0QzpGowsJLoEA3 zz1vfKVY+RTorsL4W8ljXLmcs4c3b3HZG9Xmgtt+Ni/eb9CjzM7kCXOcSMnVzvfscCowPAwB 0ZHlNxNV0MTa61xgvOCk4Zf278ArRgbTm4oOz9Z4ciPMnVue+9P/VdxIxgUuYkAryM0+agGz L9bd8ljn+efNtgZ5dlDLrNnTE+vWnMVlMXgl7BNnhwHg7UYFLrC2xklsICub0qpnNheTGeqo 0N4UongJTQJ6H6LEpgd+KMkCncAHghED/G0/BUdO90VEOoqnIKwKa+F9NqVMvHWc8D58mwCP FghsmxK9FM9pnsjLmG7u+s51Y7++GSRnU4NkI4tHiVk7hcAcvZuc0QbUDwVMTurDUgIqRo6W 80j1tFjEspkrwtMoeVFEkDHktjoc3AoEymXIncZfqIqi3nVseyDVyNByvkV0mutX9hXqac0/ RXMuyK9KniAUZ9+gsWs4rPs/DOdsw4K8/RnjduBrfCYQzsFNBGKYt7ABEADRb1tZuh7DPYET 0wK6fe7owbYgM+RfKhmcrGgR2HI9M2q6+0WKF/ITnggWdIW2Ecc4z2boLz/cwvPGCS7/YxZM 61KklGCwuS7q1s04XnHDWHuFxfXQPzAdVmNO3bYoMZbJjHXs6sB2u5ksiwPwaMAWWaGkviSj c5pwvHCiTmX5vH5CBj/Vi+5ESyX38vK4JM5S/m4ouI/6M9biyFgimV+v3vVyCxJCT1gI9g4o GIh1qq5S433b1fihn4yHPf8XOKyBpA/QcwLONViBqJL5nnOxpsh344rNxn2R7CcRzzicOV+e 2IbMem4lwNWQlZKoRotKXZi9LqN5mynSBYqAUdoZum0QinWT9F22B0Qex5PH1zAt9i2W91Vd kcPB3LwkRXj07ycRtsSzpgPA6fLc6AsoWFslHl8kVOO5eJIA4xhjlPa+W8lguQHZ0iX+5uAv 2eAgXR2swADuHPuENNFStmsgAMl8OOOgtq75yA5TpyIzxMuXV9Nmp0VfIaUM/IdLdmxhc1pC c320l5fYMHVLFAReWEbSj2QH8YzWfpXHIegutWWYEbH9SiDXgS9KoKmCJV/Qa+x6/b8y3pOZ vnIbCDaynC2Yr50s8gRa9kb54JE8Z+p8r16U3SEsK3PtUi0RF0e51danCVHrrE6/Hat2XUO/ 6nnYgVgFOrLao6Gh/VMs8wARAQABwsF8BBgBCgAmFiEEWT/lssMHB+28ly8Kt2dIb0oY1AsF AmhEAsACGwwFCQ8SDkAACgkQt2dIb0oY1AvQxw//REWYFK2m4yS/QP5kzfhkWcNqDI/akGT5 /LXmdmbc1s78+mOMXnA4vBY/+X1QatgxWUECkPDOiIwXJMxoBuyY8e7spLRXeyhtfh5aYaJc MO5bARX0c49v+KfZ80u9tG2rkKQvAt/ySo7OXsbDADFFRhlc8RLbb8e7bSctGbYZk9CYa0ya dW5+n3znDNJ6yW1skx9wTH+Y8VlSazRLk3XgXscNqBA2h56v3WS/R5dI++7AQxZxSQacQvfj 9eahq7ATdB4zMQ9MBHEwOvGD3DLlc55FYSDZvNX+mhnK7S0t1Nt2EtGUOmXb5ysMFGnbsce0 woKQ0sLPF1HWDAAf7tBCF8mpPIzU/ViAkupsJ6NYCD0tLFD8pvl0NYU2TjvyWh6ie3e5B/b3 8Daiyme+M92ivfoRQOFKmkPfeT14AI6OW1k7qFbmoIwMWWQdFWAl1CP9hNdF9gRN4rFB0Jy1 90BajZW2zOdVfqdurJZegCzAowZalLm4JEK2MklpPzipibnJqhLOmvJy587pF52KDdM/4rLy BBREIm7uRivnO5k/BY5qS+H/aqv97LC0PVaTsLXbDmTxTnJplUpdlYT9NGidM+x/ioS0iztO Cht7cT8V8jvvKZYvNpst8iqxuIaoV9V7aZ0wAQpkgDGXHmSzwtz6U8xNf/4e4sLn9KPlldSd kvo= In-Reply-To: <7140136F-FD23-47E1-9383-3B7CA25A0922@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.98 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.977]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20230601]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36:c]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[grahamperrin]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::42d:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4cC87K34HKz40Zv In addition to packages that already have it: - which packages might benefit from the vital flag? An initial shortlist of candidates: FreeBSD-caroot  (main, not (or not yet) stable/14) FreeBSD-certctl (stable/14) FreeBSD-kernel-generic FreeBSD-kernel-generic-mccam FreeBSD-kernel-generic-nodebug FreeBSD-kernel-minimal FreeBSD-pkgbasify FreeBSD-pkg-bootstrap FreeBSD-rescue FreeBSD-utilities main branch, unless specified otherwise. Background ========== On 11th May 2025, Baptiste Daroussin wrote: > Le 11 mai 2025 17:29:49 GMT+02:00, Mark Millard a écrit : >> In a system/chroot that is based on PkgBase, a "pkg delete -a" >> that is allowed to run also destroys the system software, not >> just port packages. There is no way to delete just all the >> port packages in a PkgBase based system as far as I can tell. >> >> … > no! > > there is a vital flag set on some packages that should prevent the bare minimal > to be removed without -f (ykla, July) – pkgbasify base package requirements – pkg bootstrap and chroot – I assume that FreeBSD-pkgbasify will be discrete. ---- grahamperrin@pkg:~ % pkg query -e '%V=1' %n ; pkg -v ; uname -mvKU FreeBSD-clibs FreeBSD-runtime 2.2.2 FreeBSD 14.3-RELEASE-p2 releng/14.3-n271439-5982521fe3dd GENERIC amd64 1403000 1403000 grahamperrin@pkg:~ % pkg iinfo uclcmd uclcmd-0.2.20211204 grahamperrin@pkg:~ % From nobody Thu Aug 28 08:29:38 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4cCF2F0Y89z65b8p for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2025 08:29:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yklaxds@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lf1-x135.google.com (mail-lf1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::135]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4cCF2D5c6qz3KcF for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2025 08:29:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yklaxds@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-lf1-x135.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-55f49b42180so756747e87.3 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2025 01:29:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1756369790; x=1756974590; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=r2Pg+z762yqnUYt2+yzQvxY70glh2tYnsqmL+3zpHKo=; b=WHNVuykDKqUPZ4fw+0IuZmGQlpt4AlK+e9xnbA2RGb01HpHSD3Ly6JeYfIf1rk7sq8 ZGKvttr4tEyOg+5dAtxjsaMKAkMPV9A/lK/deMJWakLWrp/2bPyicF+gd2sMYDxsQ4uN S3+wUGNFAOmcDHYGzpUXA+hgE2AFQMYcD5l2AJqdUrchMnNpDw5jeiJI3V3ccUg1SqsG +6X3pyG0px50zLAP8XrDrTxG5SxvM02RLwugUoLWyuy89aev6n8ng0mBAye56qz0Vv72 uiZDulNvwCeAr7OEyqeostcweK50r+fin+V1fGz419b+TXuoRY+6UatTHd0CpQb55OmG r3Eg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1756369790; x=1756974590; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=r2Pg+z762yqnUYt2+yzQvxY70glh2tYnsqmL+3zpHKo=; b=g8aAJBA/Giibv98KZRgXEY/IQ6xN0kSXT47sDTmbAcvC6btVrkJQZJz/V5N9fuQfB5 SG8BasTDiFUwHsCUDvltDMlVKJlHceqLke4OmIMbceBp6mjhqP8Q+c35LwuIzQx1IXEv ryCI0WNxu7Poru87DpnxIrXWbgYlhXenx/j0JU0sMrNS7Fne9bx7K2CgQbuPnXKG/93H rB5Bx3NMRji6jAd5T4xlWvwNhjgmWBRbDbkGotYwZZ2k8q29v6iQJyowpNejPUfFgRy0 3aI9x+L2n+8GTTujPMhswLMB0h+snFjBaEXHTXV2yY7uUbzfeJu3r1oNEj72mZw2ULL6 Vbgw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxMWRBRcC3JZgCsZ2b0LFU0N1bOhBArQMoIL7wDzaKgyLW+oio8 5XrIhUKORLGUEgZnurkSrRNGy+5NjPBxQ9wwriJZml9JOV7UiGmfnYKf9kG6CSoVYO/EYKATLFM lr6xkJDHvIM1gy1k+3/M3WXeQp7cZOOvHIA== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncuw1cYTKbLl4b+gCy4mkenPEduxM8m7cvQ+R/OgWVgBprc9vaS0zWaL5FYsGCd 9c18hiqVcT3z0N/RsSd3+PdT0kLUJV8/mDN3jOqhVNGX3VAKcU/7HHL4/z0dFhIeeU1wvLyxSLV 1tbbI14QeYhcIYnR4Oq1dVS5IGp2LdSyT+4bYvHGm18ayHaNswQTmuqmeXv7/Mt5OXDs1uBDNF/ y5JC5WGXUjtxNY0iBU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IG+JUyTUmsuse0OOQfzJSDTzuksh+CcAcISGzHy81qUrAiqDYqNlcWrx7a3w04v7q5KqOoQLoVt05DIdvP3pSM= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:1195:b0:55f:418a:a608 with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-55f418aa765mr4269716e87.55.1756369789927; Thu, 28 Aug 2025 01:29:49 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Packaging the FreeBSD base system List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-pkgbase List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7C9864FD-BDE8-4527-A6D9-0EC5908D177D.ref@yahoo.com> <7C9864FD-BDE8-4527-A6D9-0EC5908D177D@yahoo.com> <7140136F-FD23-47E1-9383-3B7CA25A0922@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: From: ykla Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2025 16:29:38 +0800 X-Gm-Features: Ac12FXyi5vgmE6yFZ-E48S84Ji6CuywbffonGgdNWw7zUr02scKoD7M8R0FK9Do Message-ID: Subject: Re: vital packages To: Graham Perrin Cc: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006c4a4f063d68b569" X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4cCF2D5c6qz3KcF --0000000000006c4a4f063d68b569 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Currently, FreeBSD=E2=80=99s pkg installs software by uninstalling the old package before installing the new one. This approach has broken my system, because the new package failed to install while the old one had already been removed. I believe it would be safer if pkg could automatically create a snapshot of the last bootable system using ZFS or UFS before making such changes. ykla Graham Perrin =E6=96=BC 2025=E5=B9=B48=E6=9C=8828= =E6=97=A5 =E9=80=B1=E5=9B=9B =E4=B8=8B=E5=8D=8812:48 =E5=AF=AB=E9=81=93=EF= =BC=9A > In addition to packages that already have it: > > - which packages might benefit from the vital flag? > > An initial shortlist of candidates: > > FreeBSD-caroot (main, not (or not yet) stable/14) > FreeBSD-certctl (stable/14) > FreeBSD-kernel-generic > FreeBSD-kernel-generic-mccam > FreeBSD-kernel-generic-nodebug > FreeBSD-kernel-minimal > FreeBSD-pkgbasify > FreeBSD-pkg-bootstrap > FreeBSD-rescue > FreeBSD-utilities > > main branch, unless specified otherwise. > > > Background > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > On 11th May 2025, Baptiste Daroussin wrote: > > > Le 11 mai 2025 17:29:49 GMT+02:00, Mark Millard a > =C3=A9crit : > >> In a system/chroot that is based on PkgBase, a "pkg delete -a" > >> that is allowed to run also destroys the system software, not > >> just port packages. There is no way to delete just all the > >> port packages in a PkgBase based system as far as I can tell. > >> > >> =E2=80=A6 > > no! > > > > there is a vital flag set on some packages that should prevent the bare > minimal > > to be removed without -f > > > (ykla, July) > > < > https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-pkgbase/2025-August/000760.htm= l > > > =E2=80=93 pkgbasify base package requirements > > > =E2=80=93 pkg bootstrap and chroot > > > =E2=80=93 I assume that FreeBSD-pkgbasify will be discrete. > > ---- > > grahamperrin@pkg:~ % pkg query -e '%V=3D1' %n ; pkg -v ; uname -mvKU > FreeBSD-clibs > FreeBSD-runtime > 2.2.2 > FreeBSD 14.3-RELEASE-p2 releng/14.3-n271439-5982521fe3dd GENERIC amd64 > 1403000 1403000 > grahamperrin@pkg:~ % pkg iinfo uclcmd > uclcmd-0.2.20211204 > grahamperrin@pkg:~ % > > --0000000000006c4a4f063d68b569 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

Cur= rently, FreeBSD=E2=80=99s pkg installs software by uninstalling the old
package before installing the new one. This approach ha= s broken my
system, because the new package failed t= o install while the old one
had already been removed= .

I believe it would be = safer if pkg could automatically create a
snapshot o= f the last bootable system using ZFS or UFS before making
such changes.

ykla=


Graham Perrin <grahamperrin@gmail.com> =E6=96=BC 2025=E5=B9=B48=E6=9C=88= 28=E6=97=A5 =E9=80=B1=E5=9B=9B =E4=B8=8B=E5=8D=8812:48 =E5=AF=AB=E9=81=93= =EF=BC=9A
In addition to packages t= hat already have it:

- which packages might benefit from the vital flag?

An initial shortlist of candidates:

FreeBSD-caroot=C2=A0 (main, not (or not yet) stable/14)
FreeBSD-certctl (stable/14)
FreeBSD-kernel-generic
FreeBSD-kernel-generic-mccam
FreeBSD-kernel-generic-nodebug
FreeBSD-kernel-minimal
FreeBSD-pkgbasify
FreeBSD-pkg-bootstrap
FreeBSD-rescue
FreeBSD-utilities

main branch, unless specified otherwise.


Background
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

On 11th May 2025, Baptiste Daroussin wrote:

> Le 11 mai 2025 17:29:49 GMT+02:00, Mark Millard <marklmi@yahoo.com> a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
>> In a system/chroot that is based on PkgBase, a "pkg delete -a= "
>> that is allowed to run also destroys the system software, not
>> just port packages. There is no way to delete just all the
>> port packages in a PkgBase based system as far as I can tell.
>>
>> =E2=80=A6
> no!
>
> there is a vital flag set on some packages that should prevent the bar= e minimal
> to be removed without -f


<https://github.com/freebsd/pkg/issues/2456<= /a>> (ykla, July)

<https://lis= ts.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-pkgbase/2025-August/000760.html>
=E2=80=93 pkgbasify base package requirements

<https://lists.f= reebsd.org/archives/freebsd-pkg/2025-August/001419.html>
=E2=80=93 pkg bootstrap and chroot

<https://reviews.freebsd.org/D51594#1187612<= /a>>
=E2=80=93 I assume that FreeBSD-pkgbasify will be discrete.

----

grahamperrin@pkg:~ % pkg query -e '%V=3D1' %n ; pkg -v ; uname -mvK= U
FreeBSD-clibs
FreeBSD-runtime
2.2.2
FreeBSD 14.3-RELEASE-p2 releng/14.3-n271439-5982521fe3dd GENERIC amd64
1403000 1403000
grahamperrin@pkg:~ % pkg iinfo uclcmd
uclcmd-0.2.20211204
grahamperrin@pkg:~ %

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Thu, 28 Aug 2025 01:43:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.11.46] ([192.173.128.46]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ffacd0b85a97d-3c711211cd3sm23464062f8f.40.2025.08.28.01.43.45 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 28 Aug 2025 01:43:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1323c623-e886-4b9d-bfa1-cd40f8e89845@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2025 09:43:44 +0100 List-Id: Packaging the FreeBSD base system List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-pkgbase List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: (2441) pkg upgrade: ability to complete what was originally intended, following an interruption (was: vital packages) To: freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org References: <7C9864FD-BDE8-4527-A6D9-0EC5908D177D.ref@yahoo.com> <7C9864FD-BDE8-4527-A6D9-0EC5908D177D@yahoo.com> <7140136F-FD23-47E1-9383-3B7CA25A0922@FreeBSD.org> From: Graham Perrin Content-Language: en-GB Autocrypt: addr=grahamperrin@gmail.com; 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charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.998]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20230601]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36:c]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[grahamperrin]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org,freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::430:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4cCFLD72Zqz3MF1 On 28/08/2025 08:00, ykla wrote: > … the new package failed to install while the old one > had already been removed. … That sounds like pkg issue 2441, . (Unrelated to vital packages for pkgbase). 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Please subscribe to pkg issue 311, . 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Please subscribe to pkg issue 311, . 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[89.241.205.78]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ffacd0b85a97d-3cf270fc11dsm5294023f8f.4.2025.08.29.19.46.36 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 29 Aug 2025 19:46:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <0dbf8c95-7697-4887-a890-335c3ccd80f1@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2025 03:46:35 +0100 List-Id: Packaging the FreeBSD base system List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-pkgbase List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: pkg upgrade, vfs.zfs.arc.free_target, vfs.zfs.arc.sys_free (was: CFT: pkgbase support in 15.0) To: freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org References: From: Graham Perrin Content-Language: en-GB Autocrypt: addr=grahamperrin@gmail.com; keydata= xsFNBGKYt7ABEAClu83dJ3ZKfVgPOk9YKRv0Z+dl2b88+k9R4vwAmElgguYdKE7yhnQNhhWM v9vi6AFrBMc2oJdVHJ2OrXfwpELBFIgiSMEWNsC4e+Z3HtSajcl+pFZsP7ciiSoycj/w3wIV kAZoVGbhyIbNG7fbCEJ8q81TbfsGypV3bRmbZVvGNecBguYiooBtz2Qht1p3itXMkIA6P9pS YDl+6QddZLyUUAjAnFv2QDoYSHLnaDUWw4oONZsB0SKVu8jMIBh4uJZoYEOvdvc9jQQdOpA2 CAgA6ulfm42Ikr9lKBUUCtjqiWAhJ7iXOTyHAIdR4Mf8alCE6tdTq6dHdIt+GktTY7oYNyL2 3aD3C7I5waU0SFXvJcOMG10QLfwYQMOQoYQ9XJ0U5A28WYiDcylDdUWT7SappP1e1ZMeJWWO y14mxxNzHaJSI4rK8P/p5tp3Q7SSC4k5gMh9zKba3K2ApCWNbVLGvXsJeQkZZNvu70tE81ey AHI5iZcB6D7WaHysBUmsKaEpbcmm1ZThTnGL0SHEl5to5Jab5Fg6O+Cnly5sVz5lX/v8Aosx kKNei7SCVqXOVtteQeGxWbXWbhPgbMyc0Gi3DuxBI/yvJ43k/rJysQlLGLWfJx/UXprwLluC PDK9EvKEB+fD1Z349uzp1sKr3ihpySbyKI8fpudftnAz4EsoCwARAQABzSZHcmFoYW0gUGVy cmluIDxncmFoYW1wZXJyaW5AZ21haWwuY29tPsLBlAQTAQoAPhYhBFk/5bLDBwftvJcvCrdn SG9KGNQLBQJoRALAAhsDBQkPEg5ABQsJCAcDBRUKCQgLBRYDAgEAAh4FAheAAAoJELdnSG9K GNQL8YkP/2V1z6XQDyG1QlKAu8TuE8zDWy9QQKjC/G44hlu5zk+2kWSNk4zeExs9ZXOBmVhF EW1d+1J8wDiYIeKYj/rqMoP+gb8o0Au0lSRitvTdLxkZBFGMn0CEzlDOzv+wmiy0ggAV/s+Y EbiHk12fI0LoTy5/ywdmG/uGS7M6p3XOrM0YO1qmLXy1cUyYDsYIpq5/rT0QzpGowsJLoEA3 zz1vfKVY+RTorsL4W8ljXLmcs4c3b3HZG9Xmgtt+Ni/eb9CjzM7kCXOcSMnVzvfscCowPAwB 0ZHlNxNV0MTa61xgvOCk4Zf278ArRgbTm4oOz9Z4ciPMnVue+9P/VdxIxgUuYkAryM0+agGz L9bd8ljn+efNtgZ5dlDLrNnTE+vWnMVlMXgl7BNnhwHg7UYFLrC2xklsICub0qpnNheTGeqo 0N4UongJTQJ6H6LEpgd+KMkCncAHghED/G0/BUdO90VEOoqnIKwKa+F9NqVMvHWc8D58mwCP FghsmxK9FM9pnsjLmG7u+s51Y7++GSRnU4NkI4tHiVk7hcAcvZuc0QbUDwVMTurDUgIqRo6W 80j1tFjEspkrwtMoeVFEkDHktjoc3AoEymXIncZfqIqi3nVseyDVyNByvkV0mutX9hXqac0/ RXMuyK9KniAUZ9+gsWs4rPs/DOdsw4K8/RnjduBrfCYQzsFNBGKYt7ABEADRb1tZuh7DPYET 0wK6fe7owbYgM+RfKhmcrGgR2HI9M2q6+0WKF/ITnggWdIW2Ecc4z2boLz/cwvPGCS7/YxZM 61KklGCwuS7q1s04XnHDWHuFxfXQPzAdVmNO3bYoMZbJjHXs6sB2u5ksiwPwaMAWWaGkviSj c5pwvHCiTmX5vH5CBj/Vi+5ESyX38vK4JM5S/m4ouI/6M9biyFgimV+v3vVyCxJCT1gI9g4o GIh1qq5S433b1fihn4yHPf8XOKyBpA/QcwLONViBqJL5nnOxpsh344rNxn2R7CcRzzicOV+e 2IbMem4lwNWQlZKoRotKXZi9LqN5mynSBYqAUdoZum0QinWT9F22B0Qex5PH1zAt9i2W91Vd kcPB3LwkRXj07ycRtsSzpgPA6fLc6AsoWFslHl8kVOO5eJIA4xhjlPa+W8lguQHZ0iX+5uAv 2eAgXR2swADuHPuENNFStmsgAMl8OOOgtq75yA5TpyIzxMuXV9Nmp0VfIaUM/IdLdmxhc1pC c320l5fYMHVLFAReWEbSj2QH8YzWfpXHIegutWWYEbH9SiDXgS9KoKmCJV/Qa+x6/b8y3pOZ vnIbCDaynC2Yr50s8gRa9kb54JE8Z+p8r16U3SEsK3PtUi0RF0e51danCVHrrE6/Hat2XUO/ 6nnYgVgFOrLao6Gh/VMs8wARAQABwsF8BBgBCgAmFiEEWT/lssMHB+28ly8Kt2dIb0oY1AsF AmhEAsACGwwFCQ8SDkAACgkQt2dIb0oY1AvQxw//REWYFK2m4yS/QP5kzfhkWcNqDI/akGT5 /LXmdmbc1s78+mOMXnA4vBY/+X1QatgxWUECkPDOiIwXJMxoBuyY8e7spLRXeyhtfh5aYaJc MO5bARX0c49v+KfZ80u9tG2rkKQvAt/ySo7OXsbDADFFRhlc8RLbb8e7bSctGbYZk9CYa0ya dW5+n3znDNJ6yW1skx9wTH+Y8VlSazRLk3XgXscNqBA2h56v3WS/R5dI++7AQxZxSQacQvfj 9eahq7ATdB4zMQ9MBHEwOvGD3DLlc55FYSDZvNX+mhnK7S0t1Nt2EtGUOmXb5ysMFGnbsce0 woKQ0sLPF1HWDAAf7tBCF8mpPIzU/ViAkupsJ6NYCD0tLFD8pvl0NYU2TjvyWh6ie3e5B/b3 8Daiyme+M92ivfoRQOFKmkPfeT14AI6OW1k7qFbmoIwMWWQdFWAl1CP9hNdF9gRN4rFB0Jy1 90BajZW2zOdVfqdurJZegCzAowZalLm4JEK2MklpPzipibnJqhLOmvJy587pF52KDdM/4rLy BBREIm7uRivnO5k/BY5qS+H/aqv97LC0PVaTsLXbDmTxTnJplUpdlYT9NGidM+x/ioS0iztO Cht7cT8V8jvvKZYvNpst8iqxuIaoV9V7aZ0wAQpkgDGXHmSzwtz6U8xNf/4e4sLn9KPlldSd kvo= In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.998]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20230601]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[grahamperrin]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org,freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::332:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4cDKKK5FsKz3PGJ On 30/05/2025 17:02, Mark Millard wrote: > … Did you do any tuning of the ZFS-in-use examples Recent test results, with a VirtualBox snapshot of: - FreeBSD 14.3-RELEASE-p2, AMD64, 525 packages from FreeBSD-base - x11/kde, x11/sddm, x11/xorg,and ten others from FreeBSD-ports - all packages cached – pkg upgrade -fFqy, repeatedly. pkg upgrade -fUy a) failed at least once with 12 GB memory without tuning b) succeeded at least once with 13 GB without tuning c) succeeded at least twice with 2 GB, ARC tuned. Failure (a): Temporarily set before (c): sysctl vfs.zfs.arc.free_target=256000 Success here means _not_ encountering: > Child process … terminated abnormally: Killed – with /var/log/messages showing the pkg context: > killed: failed to reclaim memory ---- I can not compare with 15.0-PRERELEASE until after completion of p9652f95ce8e4_sb45a181a74c main-amd64 on beefy18, . Comparison with 15.0-ALPHA1 will be more meaningful. 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[89.241.205.78]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 5b1f17b1804b1-45b66c7f0d0sm97113595e9.3.2025.08.30.02.19.58 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 30 Aug 2025 02:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <29ff7f7e-12ef-4d10-8ca4-15ae35ce6bae@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2025 10:19:57 +0100 List-Id: Packaging the FreeBSD base system List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-pkgbase List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: pkg upgrade, vfs.zfs.arc.free_target, vfs.zfs.arc.sys_free, vm.pageout_oom_seq From: Graham Perrin To: freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org References: <0dbf8c95-7697-4887-a890-335c3ccd80f1@gmail.com> Content-Language: en-GB Autocrypt: addr=grahamperrin@gmail.com; keydata= xsFNBGKYt7ABEAClu83dJ3ZKfVgPOk9YKRv0Z+dl2b88+k9R4vwAmElgguYdKE7yhnQNhhWM v9vi6AFrBMc2oJdVHJ2OrXfwpELBFIgiSMEWNsC4e+Z3HtSajcl+pFZsP7ciiSoycj/w3wIV kAZoVGbhyIbNG7fbCEJ8q81TbfsGypV3bRmbZVvGNecBguYiooBtz2Qht1p3itXMkIA6P9pS YDl+6QddZLyUUAjAnFv2QDoYSHLnaDUWw4oONZsB0SKVu8jMIBh4uJZoYEOvdvc9jQQdOpA2 CAgA6ulfm42Ikr9lKBUUCtjqiWAhJ7iXOTyHAIdR4Mf8alCE6tdTq6dHdIt+GktTY7oYNyL2 3aD3C7I5waU0SFXvJcOMG10QLfwYQMOQoYQ9XJ0U5A28WYiDcylDdUWT7SappP1e1ZMeJWWO y14mxxNzHaJSI4rK8P/p5tp3Q7SSC4k5gMh9zKba3K2ApCWNbVLGvXsJeQkZZNvu70tE81ey AHI5iZcB6D7WaHysBUmsKaEpbcmm1ZThTnGL0SHEl5to5Jab5Fg6O+Cnly5sVz5lX/v8Aosx kKNei7SCVqXOVtteQeGxWbXWbhPgbMyc0Gi3DuxBI/yvJ43k/rJysQlLGLWfJx/UXprwLluC PDK9EvKEB+fD1Z349uzp1sKr3ihpySbyKI8fpudftnAz4EsoCwARAQABzSZHcmFoYW0gUGVy cmluIDxncmFoYW1wZXJyaW5AZ21haWwuY29tPsLBlAQTAQoAPhYhBFk/5bLDBwftvJcvCrdn SG9KGNQLBQJoRALAAhsDBQkPEg5ABQsJCAcDBRUKCQgLBRYDAgEAAh4FAheAAAoJELdnSG9K GNQL8YkP/2V1z6XQDyG1QlKAu8TuE8zDWy9QQKjC/G44hlu5zk+2kWSNk4zeExs9ZXOBmVhF EW1d+1J8wDiYIeKYj/rqMoP+gb8o0Au0lSRitvTdLxkZBFGMn0CEzlDOzv+wmiy0ggAV/s+Y EbiHk12fI0LoTy5/ywdmG/uGS7M6p3XOrM0YO1qmLXy1cUyYDsYIpq5/rT0QzpGowsJLoEA3 zz1vfKVY+RTorsL4W8ljXLmcs4c3b3HZG9Xmgtt+Ni/eb9CjzM7kCXOcSMnVzvfscCowPAwB 0ZHlNxNV0MTa61xgvOCk4Zf278ArRgbTm4oOz9Z4ciPMnVue+9P/VdxIxgUuYkAryM0+agGz L9bd8ljn+efNtgZ5dlDLrNnTE+vWnMVlMXgl7BNnhwHg7UYFLrC2xklsICub0qpnNheTGeqo 0N4UongJTQJ6H6LEpgd+KMkCncAHghED/G0/BUdO90VEOoqnIKwKa+F9NqVMvHWc8D58mwCP FghsmxK9FM9pnsjLmG7u+s51Y7++GSRnU4NkI4tHiVk7hcAcvZuc0QbUDwVMTurDUgIqRo6W 80j1tFjEspkrwtMoeVFEkDHktjoc3AoEymXIncZfqIqi3nVseyDVyNByvkV0mutX9hXqac0/ RXMuyK9KniAUZ9+gsWs4rPs/DOdsw4K8/RnjduBrfCYQzsFNBGKYt7ABEADRb1tZuh7DPYET 0wK6fe7owbYgM+RfKhmcrGgR2HI9M2q6+0WKF/ITnggWdIW2Ecc4z2boLz/cwvPGCS7/YxZM 61KklGCwuS7q1s04XnHDWHuFxfXQPzAdVmNO3bYoMZbJjHXs6sB2u5ksiwPwaMAWWaGkviSj c5pwvHCiTmX5vH5CBj/Vi+5ESyX38vK4JM5S/m4ouI/6M9biyFgimV+v3vVyCxJCT1gI9g4o GIh1qq5S433b1fihn4yHPf8XOKyBpA/QcwLONViBqJL5nnOxpsh344rNxn2R7CcRzzicOV+e 2IbMem4lwNWQlZKoRotKXZi9LqN5mynSBYqAUdoZum0QinWT9F22B0Qex5PH1zAt9i2W91Vd kcPB3LwkRXj07ycRtsSzpgPA6fLc6AsoWFslHl8kVOO5eJIA4xhjlPa+W8lguQHZ0iX+5uAv 2eAgXR2swADuHPuENNFStmsgAMl8OOOgtq75yA5TpyIzxMuXV9Nmp0VfIaUM/IdLdmxhc1pC c320l5fYMHVLFAReWEbSj2QH8YzWfpXHIegutWWYEbH9SiDXgS9KoKmCJV/Qa+x6/b8y3pOZ vnIbCDaynC2Yr50s8gRa9kb54JE8Z+p8r16U3SEsK3PtUi0RF0e51danCVHrrE6/Hat2XUO/ 6nnYgVgFOrLao6Gh/VMs8wARAQABwsF8BBgBCgAmFiEEWT/lssMHB+28ly8Kt2dIb0oY1AsF AmhEAsACGwwFCQ8SDkAACgkQt2dIb0oY1AvQxw//REWYFK2m4yS/QP5kzfhkWcNqDI/akGT5 /LXmdmbc1s78+mOMXnA4vBY/+X1QatgxWUECkPDOiIwXJMxoBuyY8e7spLRXeyhtfh5aYaJc MO5bARX0c49v+KfZ80u9tG2rkKQvAt/ySo7OXsbDADFFRhlc8RLbb8e7bSctGbYZk9CYa0ya dW5+n3znDNJ6yW1skx9wTH+Y8VlSazRLk3XgXscNqBA2h56v3WS/R5dI++7AQxZxSQacQvfj 9eahq7ATdB4zMQ9MBHEwOvGD3DLlc55FYSDZvNX+mhnK7S0t1Nt2EtGUOmXb5ysMFGnbsce0 woKQ0sLPF1HWDAAf7tBCF8mpPIzU/ViAkupsJ6NYCD0tLFD8pvl0NYU2TjvyWh6ie3e5B/b3 8Daiyme+M92ivfoRQOFKmkPfeT14AI6OW1k7qFbmoIwMWWQdFWAl1CP9hNdF9gRN4rFB0Jy1 90BajZW2zOdVfqdurJZegCzAowZalLm4JEK2MklpPzipibnJqhLOmvJy587pF52KDdM/4rLy BBREIm7uRivnO5k/BY5qS+H/aqv97LC0PVaTsLXbDmTxTnJplUpdlYT9NGidM+x/ioS0iztO Cht7cT8V8jvvKZYvNpst8iqxuIaoV9V7aZ0wAQpkgDGXHmSzwtz6U8xNf/4e4sLn9KPlldSd kvo= X-Priority: 5 (Lowest) In-Reply-To: <0dbf8c95-7697-4887-a890-335c3ccd80f1@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.49 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.51)[0.515]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20230601]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36:c]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; HAS_X_PRIO_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[grahamperrin]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org,freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::32d:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4cDV3C4S1Qz41xJ On 30/08/2025 03:46, Graham Perrin wrote: > … > > pkg upgrade -fUy > > a) failed at least once with 12 GB memory without tuning > > b) succeeded at least once with 13 GB without tuning > > c) succeeded at least twice with 2 GB, ARC tuned. > > … > > Temporarily set before (c): > > sysctl vfs.zfs.arc.free_target=256000 Maybe preferable, an alternative to tuning the ZFS ARC: vm.pageout_oom_seq=120 First test: 2 GB given to the VirtualBox guest, /boot/loader.conf used for the tuning. Success. Second test: 1 GB given, temporarily tuned in single user mode before an exit to multi-user. Success. Ref: – again, thanks to Mark Millard. The physical storage that I use for the virtual disks is slow, even when connected to super speed USB (5Gb/s). An old StoreJet Transcend mobile HDD.  The varying slowness might explain why upgrades fails for me (pkg killed, failed to reclaim memory) more often than for other testers. During and after a simple ten-step upgrade from FreeBSD-ports: grahamperrin@mowa219-gjp4 ~> zpool iostat Transcend 5               capacity     operations     bandwidth pool        alloc   free   read  write   read  write ----------  -----  -----  -----  -----  -----  ----- Transcend    777G   151G     36     65  4.01M  5.00M Transcend    777G   151G     34    120  5.28M  9.44M Transcend    777G   151G     79     80  8.04M  5.97M Transcend    777G   151G     82     42  1.72M  3.99M Transcend    777G   151G    166     18  3.23M  2.11M Transcend    777G   151G    157     74  3.89M  5.59M Transcend    777G   151G     64     91  4.48M  9.01M Transcend    777G   151G      8     27   904K  2.27M Transcend    777G   151G      0     18  16.0K  1.36M Transcend    777G   151G      0      0      0      0 Transcend    777G   151G      0      0      0      0 Transcend    777G   151G      0     12    819   218K Transcend    777G   151G      0      0      0      0 Transcend    777G   151G      0      0      0      0 Transcend    777G   151G      0      0  15.2K      0 Transcend    777G   151G      0     13      0   369K Transcend    777G   151G      0     11      0   139K Transcend    777G   151G      0      0      0      0 ^C⏎ grahamperrin@mowa219-gjp4 ~ [SIGINT]> zfs version zfs-2.3.1-1ubuntu2 zfs-kmod-2.3.1-1ubuntu2 grahamperrin@mowa219-gjp4 ~> lsb_release -a No LSB modules are available. 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 797c8e7ae4813f2732c7583802092bd2; Sat, 30 Aug 2025 13:50:56 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 List-Id: Packaging the FreeBSD base system List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-pkgbase List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.700.81\)) Subject: Re: pkg upgrade, vfs.zfs.arc.free_target, vfs.zfs.arc.sys_free, vm.pageout_oom_seq From: Mark Millard X-Priority: 5 (Lowest) In-Reply-To: <29ff7f7e-12ef-4d10-8ca4-15ae35ce6bae@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2025 06:50:45 -0700 Cc: freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <19251E67-BC92-4D71-9E71-6C7546A46D8C@yahoo.com> References: <0dbf8c95-7697-4887-a890-335c3ccd80f1@gmail.com> <29ff7f7e-12ef-4d10-8ca4-15ae35ce6bae@gmail.com> To: Graham Perrin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.700.81) X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36647, ipnet:98.137.64.0/20, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4cDc3v214Tz3NXK On Aug 30, 2025, at 02:19, Graham Perrin wrote: > On 30/08/2025 03:46, Graham Perrin wrote: >=20 >> =E2=80=A6 >>=20 >> pkg upgrade -fUy >>=20 >> a) failed at least once with 12 GB memory without tuning >>=20 >> b) succeeded at least once with 13 GB without tuning >>=20 >> c) succeeded at least twice with 2 GB, ARC tuned. >>=20 >> =E2=80=A6 >>=20 >> Temporarily set before (c): >>=20 >> sysctl vfs.zfs.arc.free_target=3D256000 >=20 > Maybe preferable, an alternative to tuning the ZFS ARC: >=20 > vm.pageout_oom_seq=3D120 Such assignments of larger than default (12) values should help avoid failures, for sure. (It is not biased to controlling other performance characteristics to be better for the context.) > First test: 2 GB given to the VirtualBox guest, /boot/loader.conf used = for the tuning. Success. >=20 > Second test: 1 GB given, temporarily tuned in single user mode before = an exit to multi-user. Success. >=20 > Ref: = = =E2=80=93 again, thanks to Mark Millard. >=20 >=20 > The physical storage that I use for the virtual disks is slow, even = when connected to super speed USB (5Gb/s). An old StoreJet Transcend = mobile HDD. The varying slowness might explain why upgrades fails for = me (pkg killed, failed to reclaim memory) more often than for other = testers. >=20 > During and after a simple ten-step upgrade from FreeBSD-ports: >=20 > grahamperrin@mowa219-gjp4 ~> zpool iostat Transcend 5 > capacity operations bandwidth > pool alloc free read write read write > ---------- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- > Transcend 777G 151G 36 65 4.01M 5.00M Hmm. 151G/(777G+151G) approx=3D 0.163 for the fraction free. That is well outside the recommended free fraction range for efficient ZFS use. The Design and Implementation of the FreeBSD operation System, second edition, page 548, 2nd bullet: "Like all non-overwriting filesystems, ZFS operates best when a least a quarter of its disk pool is free. Write throughput becomes poor when the pool gets too full. By contrast, UFS can run well to 95 percent full and acceptably to 99 percent full." Also, page 549: "ZFS was designed to manage and operate enormous filesystems easily, which it does well. Its design assumed that it would have many fast 64-bit CPUs with large amounts of memory to support these enormous filesystems. When these resources are available, it works extremely well. However, it is not designed for or well suited to run on resource-constrained systems using 32-bit CPUs with less than 8 Gbytes of memory and one small, nearly full disk, which is typical of many embedded systems." Note: I take that last to mean that even one of: ) 32-bit CPUs ) few 64-bit CPUs ) slow 64-bit CPUs ) less than 8 Gbytes of memory (or insufficient memory more generally) ) nearly full disk (slow storage would make that worse) can lead to the "not well suited" status for ZFS use. Use of ZFS inside virtual machines with any such characteristics would not be exempted from that potential status. Also on Page 548: "ZFS caches its data in its ARC that is not part of the unified-memory cache managed by the virtual memory. The result is that when mmap is used on a ZFS file, . . . This approach provides coherency between memory-mapped and I/O access at the expense of wasted memory due to having 2 copies of the file in memory and extra overhead caused by the need to copy the contents between the two copies." (sendfile also mentioned as having a similar issue.) > Transcend 777G 151G 34 120 5.28M 9.44M > Transcend 777G 151G 79 80 8.04M 5.97M > Transcend 777G 151G 82 42 1.72M 3.99M > Transcend 777G 151G 166 18 3.23M 2.11M > Transcend 777G 151G 157 74 3.89M 5.59M > Transcend 777G 151G 64 91 4.48M 9.01M > Transcend 777G 151G 8 27 904K 2.27M > Transcend 777G 151G 0 18 16.0K 1.36M > Transcend 777G 151G 0 0 0 0 > Transcend 777G 151G 0 0 0 0 > Transcend 777G 151G 0 12 819 218K > Transcend 777G 151G 0 0 0 0 > Transcend 777G 151G 0 0 0 0 > Transcend 777G 151G 0 0 15.2K 0 > Transcend 777G 151G 0 13 0 369K > Transcend 777G 151G 0 11 0 139K > Transcend 777G 151G 0 0 0 0 > ^C=E2=8F=8E > grahamperrin@mowa219-gjp4 ~ [SIGINT]> zfs version > zfs-2.3.1-1ubuntu2 > zfs-kmod-2.3.1-1ubuntu2 > grahamperrin@mowa219-gjp4 ~> lsb_release -a > No LSB modules are available. > Distributor ID: Ubuntu > Description: Ubuntu 25.04 > Release: 25.04 > Codename: plucky > grahamperrin@mowa219-gjp4 ~> =3D=3D=3D Mark Millard marklmi at yahoo.com From nobody Sat Aug 30 15:50:03 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4cDfjS6ZVGz65h8R for ; 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 11afa668670fb97cf5b6c41025f2fa76; Sat, 30 Aug 2025 15:50:14 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 List-Id: Packaging the FreeBSD base system List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-pkgbase List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.700.81\)) Subject: Re: pkg upgrade, vfs.zfs.arc.free_target, vfs.zfs.arc.sys_free (was: CFT: pkgbase support in 15.0) From: Mark Millard In-Reply-To: <0dbf8c95-7697-4887-a890-335c3ccd80f1@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2025 08:50:03 -0700 Cc: freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <0dbf8c95-7697-4887-a890-335c3ccd80f1@gmail.com> To: Graham Perrin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.700.81) X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36647, ipnet:98.137.64.0/20, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4cDfjS3t8Zz3cMP On Aug 29, 2025, at 19:46, Graham Perrin wrote: >=20 > = >=20 > On 30/05/2025 17:02, Mark Millard wrote: >=20 >> =E2=80=A6 Did you do any tuning of the ZFS-in-use examples >=20 > Recent test results, with a VirtualBox snapshot of: >=20 > - FreeBSD 14.3-RELEASE-p2, AMD64, 525 packages from FreeBSD-base >=20 > - x11/kde, x11/sddm, x11/xorg,and ten others from FreeBSD-ports Your pictured count of non-base "prime-origins" indicates 11 of them. > - all packages cached =E2=80=93 pkg upgrade -fFqy, repeatedly. >=20 >=20 > pkg upgrade -fUy >=20 > a) failed at least once with 12 GB memory without tuning >=20 > b) succeeded at least once with 13 GB without tuning >=20 > c) succeeded at least twice with 2 GB, ARC tuned. >=20 >=20 > Failure (a): That shows, in part (warning: the text extraction may have inaccuracies): QUOTE [3156/3246] Installing webkit2-gtk_40-2.46.6_1... [3156/3246] Extracting webkit2-gtk_40-2.46.6_1: 100% Child process pid=3D895 terminated: Killed . . . root@pkg:~ # pkg prime-origins | grep -u base | we -1 11 . . . END QUOTE Without the list of 11, it messy for anyone else to (approximately) replicate the consequence list of (around) 3246 for independent testing of such via a close match --or, alternately, that include at least those (and possibly more from an existing environment). > Temporarily set before (c): >=20 > sysctl vfs.zfs.arc.free_target=3D256000 >=20 >=20 > Success here means _not_ encountering: >=20 >> Child process =E2=80=A6 terminated abnormally: Killed >=20 > =E2=80=93 with /var/log/messages showing the pkg context: >=20 >> killed: failed to reclaim memory >=20 > ---- >=20 > I can not compare with 15.0-PRERELEASE until after completion of = p9652f95ce8e4_sb45a181a74c main-amd64 on beefy18, = .=20 >=20 > Comparison with 15.0-ALPHA1 will be more meaningful. >=20 > Not yet tested: vfs.zfs.arc.sys_free in lieu of = vfs.zfs.arc.free_target =3D=3D=3D Mark Millard marklmi at yahoo.com From nobody Sat Aug 30 16:58:53 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4cDhDm3tyzz65p5k; Sat, 30 Aug 2025 16:59:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from grahamperrin@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wr1-x42f.google.com (mail-wr1-x42f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4cDhDl5fRSz3jv0; Sat, 30 Aug 2025 16:59:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from grahamperrin@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=UY7n0Fr9; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of grahamperrin@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::42f as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=grahamperrin@gmail.com Received: by mail-wr1-x42f.google.com with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-3d3fa21a77fso83337f8f.3; Sat, 30 Aug 2025 09:59:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1756573135; x=1757177935; darn=freebsd.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:autocrypt:content-language :from:references:cc:to:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date :message-id:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=0lcxg5LyWjnD40oVceVNpyyecZKvClwgVViGSBsu3NM=; b=UY7n0Fr9YQJ5UEHYV1AhbXiPKBPtkpKRwJxTlazW/aGlIFCEqxPKsZXGb72pmxGl0z MKjStary1XAUlB/Ay44QdjohXwoz5d9dK0hPxkvmdSvhcdgCp4qcW09/RWdiOWZaDgtx mhWG8mwMtg8UI68N0kgL+2ixa4xCbD1nGdIfyMGcQQsm6ttx8Ocu8UOBbIPRs7SnrjgC pnhxiEVwPLBtna3Qqv3gBJ9IJmeAx9am6YUoRRZfRDA/n9/BuGooGhHPW5mNy62LzLfT PHMlNaLELq/5lAFpKYOA3Pec0M2NzvYHQKOQ7c/BwOYvYdrC/I7+bEgctXuu3a/Vsdws eP2g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1756573135; x=1757177935; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:autocrypt:content-language :from:references:cc:to:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date :message-id:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=0lcxg5LyWjnD40oVceVNpyyecZKvClwgVViGSBsu3NM=; b=XJ3tfuFr/gz2nxejXpTZfi8mbtatElD/V92FVJaFmf+malD3derKQKydgrln4XPuI2 dnwTaY2vSbH5rYnkH7br4qTZlIT54Kf6qhaCa8C7pB5yt/3LGEu2EMGGvBpNqdxVcfIS /o2JxAfdXY2C1m4KkWClpO/7q7HWKanYz8W/ItWfKckV8qgbmqXhgy+xPshqy2C38SXz 4KU0s2vXKQ8xA6S4YDH8+2aBMRmZcerK8E1KRbv0/YUBGAvr1YUXnv4S5uwgchiUSIeY KAys+yGQq7XW3ZqzNSicK5x1S+HXwdSVi0N8vwDopB0IrvsDt6ldCqZmLBTj2kKjIrxs WwkQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YztFJHhzmDE/bHLQLGDIYsWWy67MUouDZtUZfqWCO4gnYjSylu1 OlUUDtbZKmXozMiQMrG7QkmPgYepkSYdQR1mr7W3MltnmtfxJzoSlOE/pWiOPQ== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncswK9drU9l/RNrvUWdGAlNPOTsS8AJiQIf0xqFu+jDGeBcfNHKthtwZta5ELG4 A33DcOHWl5oBhzqHYb3XfaeCU8CBGby2tI4GaJ4vcem9ekGK3Glp4LQRKkLYEcrj39XYAfEhUuz vcSd1yxyI6VGA5QtonuRDDbCtHEStSITy1mDtSlhXZBTmlnH62GjxxRHg1Z7lm71wg5MUg+on5I 3F8AOUDpMzCMLAapj0g0w0T9iAsbFWSk7UF9p0400+oWw/u0yAOyBm/hwF8mIXWhA2C1Z9M3/pv kugLX1LRSPdHIdLjRkDGjAgKdty1vi+xLuhkt43tk14eD3eQYbPnBsG7lRIzXTaWQXVSpxjWaED TYYVwGsS5ZKCbYs/RgfYZ1v6YYEmvEhnXZfC+diIAVH5jzlqhfA53U4hJlHJ2VtlkXUsu0Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFwzydqD01vZmfnmUg0Sn1FjJPtEGWTlKYg9HvpKwauknryFXH6jg3Jd9sKHBG38L4dfCgY9Q== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:64e5:0:b0:3ce:e5fc:6209 with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-3d1df34c657mr1606430f8f.51.1756573135012; Sat, 30 Aug 2025 09:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.4] (host-89-241-205-78.as13285.net. [89.241.205.78]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 5b1f17b1804b1-45b6b1cdf05sm91683185e9.1.2025.08.30.09.58.54 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 30 Aug 2025 09:58:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2025 17:58:53 +0100 List-Id: Packaging the FreeBSD base system List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-pkgbase List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: pkg upgrade, vfs.zfs.arc.free_target, vfs.zfs.arc.sys_free, vm.pageout_oom_seq To: freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org References: <0dbf8c95-7697-4887-a890-335c3ccd80f1@gmail.com> <29ff7f7e-12ef-4d10-8ca4-15ae35ce6bae@gmail.com> <19251E67-BC92-4D71-9E71-6C7546A46D8C@yahoo.com> From: Graham Perrin Content-Language: en-GB Autocrypt: addr=grahamperrin@gmail.com; keydata= xsFNBGKYt7ABEAClu83dJ3ZKfVgPOk9YKRv0Z+dl2b88+k9R4vwAmElgguYdKE7yhnQNhhWM v9vi6AFrBMc2oJdVHJ2OrXfwpELBFIgiSMEWNsC4e+Z3HtSajcl+pFZsP7ciiSoycj/w3wIV kAZoVGbhyIbNG7fbCEJ8q81TbfsGypV3bRmbZVvGNecBguYiooBtz2Qht1p3itXMkIA6P9pS YDl+6QddZLyUUAjAnFv2QDoYSHLnaDUWw4oONZsB0SKVu8jMIBh4uJZoYEOvdvc9jQQdOpA2 CAgA6ulfm42Ikr9lKBUUCtjqiWAhJ7iXOTyHAIdR4Mf8alCE6tdTq6dHdIt+GktTY7oYNyL2 3aD3C7I5waU0SFXvJcOMG10QLfwYQMOQoYQ9XJ0U5A28WYiDcylDdUWT7SappP1e1ZMeJWWO y14mxxNzHaJSI4rK8P/p5tp3Q7SSC4k5gMh9zKba3K2ApCWNbVLGvXsJeQkZZNvu70tE81ey AHI5iZcB6D7WaHysBUmsKaEpbcmm1ZThTnGL0SHEl5to5Jab5Fg6O+Cnly5sVz5lX/v8Aosx kKNei7SCVqXOVtteQeGxWbXWbhPgbMyc0Gi3DuxBI/yvJ43k/rJysQlLGLWfJx/UXprwLluC PDK9EvKEB+fD1Z349uzp1sKr3ihpySbyKI8fpudftnAz4EsoCwARAQABzSZHcmFoYW0gUGVy cmluIDxncmFoYW1wZXJyaW5AZ21haWwuY29tPsLBlAQTAQoAPhYhBFk/5bLDBwftvJcvCrdn SG9KGNQLBQJoRALAAhsDBQkPEg5ABQsJCAcDBRUKCQgLBRYDAgEAAh4FAheAAAoJELdnSG9K GNQL8YkP/2V1z6XQDyG1QlKAu8TuE8zDWy9QQKjC/G44hlu5zk+2kWSNk4zeExs9ZXOBmVhF EW1d+1J8wDiYIeKYj/rqMoP+gb8o0Au0lSRitvTdLxkZBFGMn0CEzlDOzv+wmiy0ggAV/s+Y EbiHk12fI0LoTy5/ywdmG/uGS7M6p3XOrM0YO1qmLXy1cUyYDsYIpq5/rT0QzpGowsJLoEA3 zz1vfKVY+RTorsL4W8ljXLmcs4c3b3HZG9Xmgtt+Ni/eb9CjzM7kCXOcSMnVzvfscCowPAwB 0ZHlNxNV0MTa61xgvOCk4Zf278ArRgbTm4oOz9Z4ciPMnVue+9P/VdxIxgUuYkAryM0+agGz L9bd8ljn+efNtgZ5dlDLrNnTE+vWnMVlMXgl7BNnhwHg7UYFLrC2xklsICub0qpnNheTGeqo 0N4UongJTQJ6H6LEpgd+KMkCncAHghED/G0/BUdO90VEOoqnIKwKa+F9NqVMvHWc8D58mwCP FghsmxK9FM9pnsjLmG7u+s51Y7++GSRnU4NkI4tHiVk7hcAcvZuc0QbUDwVMTurDUgIqRo6W 80j1tFjEspkrwtMoeVFEkDHktjoc3AoEymXIncZfqIqi3nVseyDVyNByvkV0mutX9hXqac0/ RXMuyK9KniAUZ9+gsWs4rPs/DOdsw4K8/RnjduBrfCYQzsFNBGKYt7ABEADRb1tZuh7DPYET 0wK6fe7owbYgM+RfKhmcrGgR2HI9M2q6+0WKF/ITnggWdIW2Ecc4z2boLz/cwvPGCS7/YxZM 61KklGCwuS7q1s04XnHDWHuFxfXQPzAdVmNO3bYoMZbJjHXs6sB2u5ksiwPwaMAWWaGkviSj c5pwvHCiTmX5vH5CBj/Vi+5ESyX38vK4JM5S/m4ouI/6M9biyFgimV+v3vVyCxJCT1gI9g4o GIh1qq5S433b1fihn4yHPf8XOKyBpA/QcwLONViBqJL5nnOxpsh344rNxn2R7CcRzzicOV+e 2IbMem4lwNWQlZKoRotKXZi9LqN5mynSBYqAUdoZum0QinWT9F22B0Qex5PH1zAt9i2W91Vd kcPB3LwkRXj07ycRtsSzpgPA6fLc6AsoWFslHl8kVOO5eJIA4xhjlPa+W8lguQHZ0iX+5uAv 2eAgXR2swADuHPuENNFStmsgAMl8OOOgtq75yA5TpyIzxMuXV9Nmp0VfIaUM/IdLdmxhc1pC c320l5fYMHVLFAReWEbSj2QH8YzWfpXHIegutWWYEbH9SiDXgS9KoKmCJV/Qa+x6/b8y3pOZ vnIbCDaynC2Yr50s8gRa9kb54JE8Z+p8r16U3SEsK3PtUi0RF0e51danCVHrrE6/Hat2XUO/ 6nnYgVgFOrLao6Gh/VMs8wARAQABwsF8BBgBCgAmFiEEWT/lssMHB+28ly8Kt2dIb0oY1AsF AmhEAsACGwwFCQ8SDkAACgkQt2dIb0oY1AvQxw//REWYFK2m4yS/QP5kzfhkWcNqDI/akGT5 /LXmdmbc1s78+mOMXnA4vBY/+X1QatgxWUECkPDOiIwXJMxoBuyY8e7spLRXeyhtfh5aYaJc MO5bARX0c49v+KfZ80u9tG2rkKQvAt/ySo7OXsbDADFFRhlc8RLbb8e7bSctGbYZk9CYa0ya dW5+n3znDNJ6yW1skx9wTH+Y8VlSazRLk3XgXscNqBA2h56v3WS/R5dI++7AQxZxSQacQvfj 9eahq7ATdB4zMQ9MBHEwOvGD3DLlc55FYSDZvNX+mhnK7S0t1Nt2EtGUOmXb5ysMFGnbsce0 woKQ0sLPF1HWDAAf7tBCF8mpPIzU/ViAkupsJ6NYCD0tLFD8pvl0NYU2TjvyWh6ie3e5B/b3 8Daiyme+M92ivfoRQOFKmkPfeT14AI6OW1k7qFbmoIwMWWQdFWAl1CP9hNdF9gRN4rFB0Jy1 90BajZW2zOdVfqdurJZegCzAowZalLm4JEK2MklpPzipibnJqhLOmvJy587pF52KDdM/4rLy BBREIm7uRivnO5k/BY5qS+H/aqv97LC0PVaTsLXbDmTxTnJplUpdlYT9NGidM+x/ioS0iztO Cht7cT8V8jvvKZYvNpst8iqxuIaoV9V7aZ0wAQpkgDGXHmSzwtz6U8xNf/4e4sLn9KPlldSd kvo= In-Reply-To: <19251E67-BC92-4D71-9E71-6C7546A46D8C@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20230601]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[grahamperrin]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org,freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::42f:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4cDhDl5fRSz3jv0 On 30/08/2025 14:50, Mark Millard wrote: > … efficient ZFS use. … Thanks, I should add that efficiency is not my objective with these tests. I'd like the outcomes to include pkg upgrade tips for end users who, for various reasons, find themselves with the benefits of ZFS (not least, bectl for boot environments) on systems that are constrained (e.g. 4 GB memory and limited free space on a HDD). I sense that vm.pageout_oom_seq might be the sanest approach, in cases where hardware constraints are relatively severe. I'm open to alternative suggestions. In the past I could be quite careless about untimely interruptions to upgrades ("simply re-run the pkg command, maybe more than once, until it found nothing more to upgrade."). Nowadays there's a greater risk of an awkward problem following an untimely interruption. I don't mind the awkwardness (I know how to dig myself out of a hole); other users might be less forgiving. 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[89.241.205.78]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 5b1f17b1804b1-45b6f4aa8a0sm166940565e9.12.2025.08.30.10.06.39 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 30 Aug 2025 10:06:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35dbfdd6-8ceb-429d-b8bf-7341f4d3263e@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2025 18:06:39 +0100 List-Id: Packaging the FreeBSD base system List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-pkgbase List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: pkg upgrade, vfs.zfs.arc.free_target, vfs.zfs.arc.sys_free To: freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org References: <0dbf8c95-7697-4887-a890-335c3ccd80f1@gmail.com> From: Graham Perrin Content-Language: en-GB Autocrypt: addr=grahamperrin@gmail.com; keydata= xsFNBGKYt7ABEAClu83dJ3ZKfVgPOk9YKRv0Z+dl2b88+k9R4vwAmElgguYdKE7yhnQNhhWM v9vi6AFrBMc2oJdVHJ2OrXfwpELBFIgiSMEWNsC4e+Z3HtSajcl+pFZsP7ciiSoycj/w3wIV kAZoVGbhyIbNG7fbCEJ8q81TbfsGypV3bRmbZVvGNecBguYiooBtz2Qht1p3itXMkIA6P9pS YDl+6QddZLyUUAjAnFv2QDoYSHLnaDUWw4oONZsB0SKVu8jMIBh4uJZoYEOvdvc9jQQdOpA2 CAgA6ulfm42Ikr9lKBUUCtjqiWAhJ7iXOTyHAIdR4Mf8alCE6tdTq6dHdIt+GktTY7oYNyL2 3aD3C7I5waU0SFXvJcOMG10QLfwYQMOQoYQ9XJ0U5A28WYiDcylDdUWT7SappP1e1ZMeJWWO y14mxxNzHaJSI4rK8P/p5tp3Q7SSC4k5gMh9zKba3K2ApCWNbVLGvXsJeQkZZNvu70tE81ey AHI5iZcB6D7WaHysBUmsKaEpbcmm1ZThTnGL0SHEl5to5Jab5Fg6O+Cnly5sVz5lX/v8Aosx kKNei7SCVqXOVtteQeGxWbXWbhPgbMyc0Gi3DuxBI/yvJ43k/rJysQlLGLWfJx/UXprwLluC PDK9EvKEB+fD1Z349uzp1sKr3ihpySbyKI8fpudftnAz4EsoCwARAQABzSZHcmFoYW0gUGVy cmluIDxncmFoYW1wZXJyaW5AZ21haWwuY29tPsLBlAQTAQoAPhYhBFk/5bLDBwftvJcvCrdn SG9KGNQLBQJoRALAAhsDBQkPEg5ABQsJCAcDBRUKCQgLBRYDAgEAAh4FAheAAAoJELdnSG9K GNQL8YkP/2V1z6XQDyG1QlKAu8TuE8zDWy9QQKjC/G44hlu5zk+2kWSNk4zeExs9ZXOBmVhF EW1d+1J8wDiYIeKYj/rqMoP+gb8o0Au0lSRitvTdLxkZBFGMn0CEzlDOzv+wmiy0ggAV/s+Y EbiHk12fI0LoTy5/ywdmG/uGS7M6p3XOrM0YO1qmLXy1cUyYDsYIpq5/rT0QzpGowsJLoEA3 zz1vfKVY+RTorsL4W8ljXLmcs4c3b3HZG9Xmgtt+Ni/eb9CjzM7kCXOcSMnVzvfscCowPAwB 0ZHlNxNV0MTa61xgvOCk4Zf278ArRgbTm4oOz9Z4ciPMnVue+9P/VdxIxgUuYkAryM0+agGz L9bd8ljn+efNtgZ5dlDLrNnTE+vWnMVlMXgl7BNnhwHg7UYFLrC2xklsICub0qpnNheTGeqo 0N4UongJTQJ6H6LEpgd+KMkCncAHghED/G0/BUdO90VEOoqnIKwKa+F9NqVMvHWc8D58mwCP FghsmxK9FM9pnsjLmG7u+s51Y7++GSRnU4NkI4tHiVk7hcAcvZuc0QbUDwVMTurDUgIqRo6W 80j1tFjEspkrwtMoeVFEkDHktjoc3AoEymXIncZfqIqi3nVseyDVyNByvkV0mutX9hXqac0/ RXMuyK9KniAUZ9+gsWs4rPs/DOdsw4K8/RnjduBrfCYQzsFNBGKYt7ABEADRb1tZuh7DPYET 0wK6fe7owbYgM+RfKhmcrGgR2HI9M2q6+0WKF/ITnggWdIW2Ecc4z2boLz/cwvPGCS7/YxZM 61KklGCwuS7q1s04XnHDWHuFxfXQPzAdVmNO3bYoMZbJjHXs6sB2u5ksiwPwaMAWWaGkviSj c5pwvHCiTmX5vH5CBj/Vi+5ESyX38vK4JM5S/m4ouI/6M9biyFgimV+v3vVyCxJCT1gI9g4o GIh1qq5S433b1fihn4yHPf8XOKyBpA/QcwLONViBqJL5nnOxpsh344rNxn2R7CcRzzicOV+e 2IbMem4lwNWQlZKoRotKXZi9LqN5mynSBYqAUdoZum0QinWT9F22B0Qex5PH1zAt9i2W91Vd kcPB3LwkRXj07ycRtsSzpgPA6fLc6AsoWFslHl8kVOO5eJIA4xhjlPa+W8lguQHZ0iX+5uAv 2eAgXR2swADuHPuENNFStmsgAMl8OOOgtq75yA5TpyIzxMuXV9Nmp0VfIaUM/IdLdmxhc1pC c320l5fYMHVLFAReWEbSj2QH8YzWfpXHIegutWWYEbH9SiDXgS9KoKmCJV/Qa+x6/b8y3pOZ vnIbCDaynC2Yr50s8gRa9kb54JE8Z+p8r16U3SEsK3PtUi0RF0e51danCVHrrE6/Hat2XUO/ 6nnYgVgFOrLao6Gh/VMs8wARAQABwsF8BBgBCgAmFiEEWT/lssMHB+28ly8Kt2dIb0oY1AsF AmhEAsACGwwFCQ8SDkAACgkQt2dIb0oY1AvQxw//REWYFK2m4yS/QP5kzfhkWcNqDI/akGT5 /LXmdmbc1s78+mOMXnA4vBY/+X1QatgxWUECkPDOiIwXJMxoBuyY8e7spLRXeyhtfh5aYaJc MO5bARX0c49v+KfZ80u9tG2rkKQvAt/ySo7OXsbDADFFRhlc8RLbb8e7bSctGbYZk9CYa0ya dW5+n3znDNJ6yW1skx9wTH+Y8VlSazRLk3XgXscNqBA2h56v3WS/R5dI++7AQxZxSQacQvfj 9eahq7ATdB4zMQ9MBHEwOvGD3DLlc55FYSDZvNX+mhnK7S0t1Nt2EtGUOmXb5ysMFGnbsce0 woKQ0sLPF1HWDAAf7tBCF8mpPIzU/ViAkupsJ6NYCD0tLFD8pvl0NYU2TjvyWh6ie3e5B/b3 8Daiyme+M92ivfoRQOFKmkPfeT14AI6OW1k7qFbmoIwMWWQdFWAl1CP9hNdF9gRN4rFB0Jy1 90BajZW2zOdVfqdurJZegCzAowZalLm4JEK2MklpPzipibnJqhLOmvJy587pF52KDdM/4rLy BBREIm7uRivnO5k/BY5qS+H/aqv97LC0PVaTsLXbDmTxTnJplUpdlYT9NGidM+x/ioS0iztO Cht7cT8V8jvvKZYvNpst8iqxuIaoV9V7aZ0wAQpkgDGXHmSzwtz6U8xNf/4e4sLn9KPlldSd kvo= In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20230601]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[grahamperrin]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org,freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::435:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4cDhPg5S0hz3kLn On 30/08/2025 16:50, Mark Millard wrote: > … Without the list of 11, it messy for anyone else > to (approximately) replicate the consequence > list of (around) 3246 for independent testing of > such via a close match --or, alternately, that > include at least those (and possibly more from > an existing environment). … Details at 'pkg prime-origins | sort -u' in . base plus compat/libraries plus thirteen from FreeBSD-ports = fifteen lines. 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID ceb7a352be080ea595b8289ca7bd9789; Sun, 31 Aug 2025 07:37:49 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 List-Id: Packaging the FreeBSD base system List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-pkgbase List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.700.81\)) Subject: Re: pkg upgrade, vfs.zfs.arc.free_target, vfs.zfs.arc.sys_free From: Mark Millard In-Reply-To: <35dbfdd6-8ceb-429d-b8bf-7341f4d3263e@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2025 00:37:39 -0700 Cc: freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6B77C673-AB02-488B-A964-DF27B6E026CB@yahoo.com> References: <0dbf8c95-7697-4887-a890-335c3ccd80f1@gmail.com> <35dbfdd6-8ceb-429d-b8bf-7341f4d3263e@gmail.com> To: Graham Perrin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.700.81) X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36647, ipnet:98.137.64.0/20, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4cF3kq0Kw8z3SXn On Aug 30, 2025, at 10:06, Graham Perrin wrote: > On 30/08/2025 16:50, Mark Millard wrote: >=20 >> =E2=80=A6 Without the list of 11, it messy for anyone else >> to (approximately) replicate the consequence >> list of (around) 3246 for independent testing of >> such via a close match --or, alternately, that >> include at least those (and possibly more from >> an existing environment). =E2=80=A6 >=20 >=20 > Details at 'pkg prime-origins | sort -u' in = . >=20 > base plus compat/libraries plus thirteen from FreeBSD-ports =3D = fifteen lines. >=20 # uname -apKU FreeBSD FBSDamd64S 14.3-STABLE FreeBSD 14.3-STABLE = stable/14-n272193-a0849d43d4eb GENERIC amd64 amd64 1403504 1403504 Bare metal, not a VM. It is a UFS context, not ZFS. ssh based use, not X11 or such. There were pre-existing port-packages installed. This being amd64, I'm using: # grep physmem /boot/loader.conf hw.physmem=3D"12G" to limit the RAM that the system uses to 12 GiBytes initially here. (i386 also does that with such. Too bad aarch64 does not, last I knew.) Also I'm using a fairly small swap space: # swapinfo -m Device 1M-blocks Used Avail Capacity /dev/gpt/HyperVswp3p5 3584 0 3584 0% # cat /etc/pkg/FreeBSD.conf=20 # # To disable a repository, instead of modifying or removing this file, # create a /usr/local/etc/pkg/repos/FreeBSD.conf file, e.g.: # # mkdir -p /usr/local/etc/pkg/repos # echo "FreeBSD-ports: { enabled: no }" > = /usr/local/etc/pkg/repos/FreeBSD.conf # echo "FreeBSD-ports-kmods: { enabled: no }" >> = /usr/local/etc/pkg/repos/FreeBSD.conf # FreeBSD-ports: { url: "pkg+https://pkg.FreeBSD.org/${ABI}/latest", mirror_type: "srv", signature_type: "fingerprints", fingerprints: "/usr/share/keys/pkg", enabled: yes } FreeBSD-ports-kmods: { url: "pkg+https://pkg.FreeBSD.org/${ABI}/kmods_latest", mirror_type: "srv", signature_type: "fingerprints", fingerprints: "/usr/share/keys/pkg", enabled: yes } So: latest is being tested, not quarterly. # cat ~/mmjnk-origins.txt=20 devel/uclcmd editors/nano editors/turbo emulators/virtualbox-ose-additions net/gitup sysutils/htop sysutils/lsblk x11-wm/xfce4 x11/kde x11/sddm x11/xorg x11/xsel-conrad Note: pkg automatically includes updating itself, show I've not listed ports-mgmt/pkg in the file. (Not that trying listing it made any notable difference.) (I've been making my environments have FreeBSD-ports and = freeBSD-ports-kmod for a while now. # pkg install -rFreeBSD-ports `cat ~/mmjnk-origins.txt` Updating FreeBSD-ports repository catalogue... FreeBSD-ports repository is up to date. FreeBSD-ports is up to date. The following 708 package(s) will be affected (of 0 checked): . . . # pkg upgrade -rFreeBSD-ports -fFqy #=20 # pkg upgrade -r FreeBSD-ports -fUy Checking for upgrades (1479 candidates): 100% Processing candidates (1479 candidates): 100% Checking integrity... done (0 conflicting) The following 946 package(s) will be affected (of 0 checked): . . . Number of packages to be upgraded: 12 Number of packages to be reinstalled: 934 . . . # pkg info | grep -i webkit #=20 So that list of origins is insufficient to always result in the likes of: [3156/3246] Installing webkit2-gtk_40-2.46.6_1... [3156/3246] Extracting webkit2-gtk_40-2.46.6_1: 100% At no point was SWAP observed to be used (always observed as 0 used). As for Maximum observed figures: 4099Mi MaxObs(Active+Wired+Laundry) with a maximum of 9390Mi (Active+Wired+Laundry+InAct) at such times. (I've no way to know the clean vs. dirty figures for inside Inact.) So rebooting with: hw.physmem=3D"4G" # pkg upgrade -rFreeBSD-ports -fUy Checking for upgrades (1479 candidates): 100% Processing candidates (1479 candidates): 100% Checking integrity... done (0 conflicting) The following 946 package(s) will be affected (of 0 checked): . . . Number of packages to be reinstalled: 946 . . . The maximum observed Swap Used was: 1695Mi MaxObsUsed As for some other Maximum observed figures: 3102Mi MaxObs(Active+Wired+Laundry+SwapUsed) with a maximum of 3150Mi (Active+Wired+Laundry+InAct+SwapUsed) at such = times. So at most 48 MiBytes InAct that might be dirty. 3150 MiBytes makes for a reasonable upper bound for RAM+SWAP for this context. (That, unfortunately, does not match yours for comparison.) Thought of another way: 4096 MiBytes of RAM + 1695 MiBytes of SWAP is 5791 MiBytes of (RAM+SWAP) observed for this UFS context. So: somewhat under 6 GiBytes of (RAM+SWAP). Trying an explicit install of the webkit: # pkg-static install -rFreeBSD-ports webkit2-gtk_40 Updating FreeBSD-ports repository catalogue... FreeBSD-ports repository is up to date. FreeBSD-ports is up to date. The following 6 package(s) will be affected (of 0 checked): New packages to be INSTALLED: geoclue: 2.7.2 [FreeBSD-ports] harfbuzz-icu: 10.3.0 [FreeBSD-ports] hyphen: 2.8.8 [FreeBSD-ports] libsoup: 2.74.3_1 [FreeBSD-ports] webkit2-gtk_40: 2.46.6_1 [FreeBSD-ports] woff2: 1.0.2_5 [FreeBSD-ports] Number of packages to be installed: 6 The process will require 187 MiB more space. 36 MiB to be downloaded. Proceed with this action? [y/N]: y [1/6] Fetching libsoup-2.74.3_1.pkg: 100% 607 KiB 621.6kB/s 00:01 =20= [2/6] Fetching woff2-1.0.2_5.pkg: 100% 63 KiB 64.5kB/s 00:01 =20 [3/6] Fetching webkit2-gtk_40-2.46.6_1.pkg: 100% 35 MiB 7.3MB/s = 00:05 =20 [4/6] Fetching geoclue-2.7.2.pkg: 100% 196 KiB 200.2kB/s 00:01 =20 [5/6] Fetching harfbuzz-icu-10.3.0.pkg: 100% 6 KiB 6.3kB/s 00:01 = =20 [6/6] Fetching hyphen-2.8.8.pkg: 100% 71 KiB 73.1kB/s 00:01 =20 Checking integrity... done (0 conflicting) [1/6] Installing geoclue-2.7.2... [1/6] Extracting geoclue-2.7.2: 100% [2/6] Installing harfbuzz-icu-10.3.0... [2/6] Extracting harfbuzz-icu-10.3.0: 100% [3/6] Installing hyphen-2.8.8... [3/6] Extracting hyphen-2.8.8: 100% [4/6] Installing libsoup-2.74.3_1... [4/6] Extracting libsoup-2.74.3_1: 100% [5/6] Installing woff2-1.0.2_5... [5/6] Extracting woff2-1.0.2_5: 100% [6/6] Installing webkit2-gtk_40-2.46.6_1... [6/6] Extracting webkit2-gtk_40-2.46.6_1: 100% =3D=3D> Running trigger: desktop-file-utils.ucl Building cache database of MIME types =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Message from libsoup-2.74.3_1: -- libsoup can use NTLM authentication if it is compiled with the SMB option. To use it, you must install a port that provides NTLM, like net/samba412 or net/samba413. #=20 # pkg upgrade -rFreeBSD-ports -fUy Checking for upgrades (1485 candidates): 100% Processing candidates (1485 candidates): 100% Checking integrity... done (0 conflicting) The following 952 package(s) will be affected (of 0 checked): . . . Number of packages to be reinstalled: 952 . . . [1/1801] Deinstalling aarch64-gcc14-14.1.0... . . . The maximum observed Swap Used was still: 1695Mi MaxObsUsed As for some other Maximum observed figures: 3153Mi MaxObs(Active+Wired+Laundry+SwapUsed) with a maximum of 3249Mi (Active+Wired+Laundry+InAct+SwapUsed) at such = times. So more like a maximum 96 MiBytes InAct delta at such times. Still: 4096 MiBytes of RAM + 1695 MiBytes of SWAP (observed). It appears that for my test context, any need for more than, say, 6 = GiBytes of (RAM+SWAP) is not, of itself, from pkg. But I'm ont making the claim = that such would be true for installing more like 36,000 port packages. For reference: # pkg prime-origins | grep -v base | wc -l 97 # pkg prime-origins | grep -v base | sort -u | wc -l 94 # pkg prime-origins | grep -v base | sort -u archivers/gtar archivers/unzip archivers/zip benchmarks/bonnie benchmarks/bonnie++ benchmarks/fio benchmarks/iorate benchmarks/iozone benchmarks/iperf3 benchmarks/randomio benchmarks/stream comms/iwmbt-firmware devel/binutils devel/cmake-core devel/dwarfdump devel/freebsd-gcc14 devel/gdb devel/git devel/llvm19 devel/llvm21 devel/ninja devel/patch devel/py-pytest devel/uclcmd editors/nano editors/turbo emulators/qemu-user-static emulators/virtualbox-ose-additions filesystems/ext2 filesystems/ztop ftp/wget graphics/drm-515-kmod graphics/gpu-firmware-amd-kmod lang/gcc14 lang/gcc15 lang/perl5.42 lang/python lang/python3 lang/rust math/gnuplot-lite misc/freebsd-doc-en net/gitup net/py-dpkt net/rsync net/scapy net/tcptestsuite ports-mgmt/bsdadminscripts2 ports-mgmt/fallout ports-mgmt/pkg ports-mgmt/portlint ports-mgmt/portmaster ports-mgmt/poudriere-devel security/nist-kat security/nmap security/openvpn security/sudo shells/bash sysutils/acpica-tools sysutils/coreutils sysutils/cpu-microcode-amd sysutils/dmidecode sysutils/dtrace-toolkit sysutils/fakertc sysutils/htop sysutils/i2c-tools sysutils/lsblk sysutils/mmc-utils sysutils/pciutils sysutils/py-diffoscope sysutils/rpi-firmware sysutils/sdparm sysutils/sg3_utils sysutils/smartmontools sysutils/stress sysutils/u-boot-orangepi-plus-2e sysutils/u-boot-pine64 sysutils/u-boot-rock64 sysutils/u-boot-rpi-arm64 sysutils/u-boot-rpi2 sysutils/u-boot-rpi3 sysutils/u-boot-rpi4 sysutils/u-boot-sinovoip-bpi-m3 sysutils/u-boot-tools sysutils/usbtop sysutils/zpool-iostat-viz textproc/jq www/webkit2-gtk x11-wm/xfce4 x11/kde x11/sddm x11/xorg x11/xrandr x11/xsel-conrad x11/xterm =3D=3D=3D Mark Millard marklmi at yahoo.com From nobody Sun Aug 31 08:38:59 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4cF55h6l4kz66bb0 for ; 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 93865f5dc2d596b248e19fa1ec444e2d; Sun, 31 Aug 2025 08:39:09 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 List-Id: Packaging the FreeBSD base system List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-pkgbase List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.700.81\)) Subject: Re: pkg upgrade, vfs.zfs.arc.free_target, vfs.zfs.arc.sys_free, vm.pageout_oom_seq From: Mark Millard In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2025 01:38:59 -0700 Cc: freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9300201D-9D53-449B-9F0A-DFF6194B2830@yahoo.com> References: <0dbf8c95-7697-4887-a890-335c3ccd80f1@gmail.com> <29ff7f7e-12ef-4d10-8ca4-15ae35ce6bae@gmail.com> <19251E67-BC92-4D71-9E71-6C7546A46D8C@yahoo.com> To: Graham Perrin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.700.81) X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36647, ipnet:98.137.64.0/20, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4cF55h5bcgz3Y1m On Aug 30, 2025, at 09:58, Graham Perrin wrote: > On 30/08/2025 14:50, Mark Millard wrote: >=20 >> =E2=80=A6 efficient ZFS use. =E2=80=A6 >=20 >=20 > Thanks, I should add that efficiency is not my objective with these = tests. >=20 > I'd like the outcomes to include pkg upgrade tips for end users who, = for various reasons, find themselves with the benefits of ZFS (not = least, bectl for boot environments) on systems that are constrained = (e.g. 4 GB memory and limited free space on a HDD). >=20 > I sense that vm.pageout_oom_seq might be the sanest approach, in cases = where hardware constraints are relatively severe. I'm open to = alternative suggestions. It would appear that RAM=3D=3D4GiBytes without SWAP would not be generally supported by pkg as stands. Testing hw.physmem=3D"4G" without SWAP . . . OOM KILLS result: # pkg upgrade -rFreeBSD-ports -fUy Checking for upgrades (1485 candidates): 100% Processing candidates (1485 candidates): 100% Checking integrity...Child process pid=3D2219 terminated abnormally: = Killed dmesg -a shows: pid 2219 (pkg), jid 0, uid 0, was killed: failed to reclaim memory Aug 31 01:28:47 FBSDamd64S kernel: pid 2219 (pkg), jid 0, uid 0, was = killed: failed to reclaim memory So 4 GiBytyes of RAM is insufficient, even with use of: = vm.pageout_oom_seq=3D120 Note: In this context increases is not going to help: it is way too = little RAM for pkg. (I was observing via top at the time.) If pkg continues to require such RAM+SWAP usage, FreeBSD is going to end = up requiring more than, say, 5 GiBytes of RAM+SWAP, even for UFS contexts. > In the past I could be quite careless about untimely interruptions to = upgrades ("simply re-run the pkg command, maybe more than once, until it = found nothing more to upgrade."). Nowadays there's a greater risk of an = awkward problem following an untimely interruption. I don't mind the = awkwardness (I know how to dig myself out of a hole); other users might = be less forgiving. For reference, see: = https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-pkgbase/2025-August/000804.html= with details of my test context (where swap was in use). =3D=3D=3D Mark Millard marklmi at yahoo.com From nobody Sun Aug 31 18:42:51 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4cFLVF2Hpvz66M6Y; Sun, 31 Aug 2025 18:43:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from grahamperrin@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wm1-x32c.google.com (mail-wm1-x32c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4cFLVD1J7Vz3Xsn; Sun, 31 Aug 2025 18:43:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from grahamperrin@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=HisrkpJl; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of grahamperrin@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::32c as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=grahamperrin@gmail.com Received: by mail-wm1-x32c.google.com with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-45b8b8d45b3so3460195e9.1; Sun, 31 Aug 2025 11:43:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1756665773; x=1757270573; darn=freebsd.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:autocrypt:content-language :from:references:cc:to:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date :message-id:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=xP7xZEWk2oqvk/iCna2a992pdF/7qjMI6e9L8LK7078=; b=HisrkpJlseqf51dWvGCLg+N300m7XiTAnqw2g/FMoE29SLTP45K1G1wfq5D2JvgNAA BCzwGzGWEn+BfBBQ8HfMW1OUvNPHdUnO+4W7QgVcKb7wL71NOIiGEVPnUnc/0SwCjCKU x4P/QWnss05c51qHD7pwKbhYCbiOFHidLONyv1Y8Pg/a0cGYFQjL0mFUKw7TcrASfPOD IHXDUpkkm2OokaJ7KaD7+DOZM2eLOMHhMzQXDmTpOs2UgVFwaJk7zbTaSSIAZ+w6mV2R OrzHjY66Qwx14aRIy674skiRnNFC1i/JZt7RtF7vcKVB6Mq1XhAL4/HD32yepR2njGlm fctQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1756665773; x=1757270573; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:autocrypt:content-language :from:references:cc:to:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date :message-id:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=xP7xZEWk2oqvk/iCna2a992pdF/7qjMI6e9L8LK7078=; b=FtJEJNUFx3rjqHVAab2ro81hYlYInnP4Uy2C70puBOJRGYTPF32TiyO9TaKhHZ1lxy DpWI4vuV2QILlzpao1XFdZHPn9oknUEQM6MKi+0Mpub80gDHsLmK5SqHtAXOIcbLV7Ji wKEH0DIwQEOB2s5tHgIVIA95H3Jrg1euxAz2HZBIFLjcWrel35nnj1+Xp7GCzq570cKT K2w8pwzcxxvO25vXac7DpNDMcCL/TlhX07qC9Fr88hI2aD3tHXvGK7C0xyQWt5j1Ecdr mEK1z9Bz6j+bn97W+Oz47v2OeAWiXJ7o+sUxg3OYvwP0FjieJYSyAMiNCx3JiY5CfIi5 5QyQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzYqHC1FZVwJGME6MLFIrbPnlqajqxps9sFRyWdNhzI8ynJfps3 +deHQ5BIZa5ai69la+Ov5LJruEDgHFZSA+SAZ115graaUwk6Pm9gOIqSVCMCNA== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncsxQc7M3uQ+vIUKf+ZEWhjL3bcX8qFbPKbKZgZ56ZVoWakvny8WUBV9GQ9OOV4 KZgt+zuHf+PpNzTz5WkN1sIN5HGYfzxEfhPun6+tShZboNRJQE0NeAAUpi1vYEngkXsJJ5m0gJG BSMELkg9f7RHydUhLohT8MTWjlGba/7b2E1I/Drz+DRBsqY3LxSTZubtfhoosWrAJPTH4iCLxsL 078V2bX/UUf25h3D2wPOa8lahaJPF/b09QB0/f1YOF2Ew02SoybJutgAjAu9SwAR8UNaVqcrO+o 2M5g9hfp8JyPXmQtOK5Wozhws2WxE4wQgDmaJFLqkwAZVCtn6aWh4ycktgDY0e52eCZTnGrdQqc 8N+gKEn/bgwPrC+qy3lHIGcvDxa57y8a5GeCmIYASSVtj9A1X+B/8OSZkwfdObO8h2I4t8w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEntV1iSjC+9HUd7ilxwZDatl3hv1LQFaO0MVl1IM++JAq1ta2M5Qlzt0GnIuv+GeYhQX23fA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:45cb:b0:45b:8aa0:c7a with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-45b8aa00fa4mr27104415e9.30.1756665772933; Sun, 31 Aug 2025 11:42:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.4] (host-89-241-205-78.as13285.net. [89.241.205.78]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ffacd0b85a97d-3cf33fbb3ccsm12102481f8f.51.2025.08.31.11.42.51 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 31 Aug 2025 11:42:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2025 19:42:51 +0100 List-Id: Packaging the FreeBSD base system List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-pkgbase List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: pkg upgrade, vfs.zfs.arc.free_target, vfs.zfs.arc.sys_free, vm.pageout_oom_seq To: freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org References: <0dbf8c95-7697-4887-a890-335c3ccd80f1@gmail.com> <29ff7f7e-12ef-4d10-8ca4-15ae35ce6bae@gmail.com> <19251E67-BC92-4D71-9E71-6C7546A46D8C@yahoo.com> <9300201D-9D53-449B-9F0A-DFF6194B2830@yahoo.com> From: Graham Perrin Content-Language: en-GB Autocrypt: addr=grahamperrin@gmail.com; keydata= xsFNBGKYt7ABEAClu83dJ3ZKfVgPOk9YKRv0Z+dl2b88+k9R4vwAmElgguYdKE7yhnQNhhWM v9vi6AFrBMc2oJdVHJ2OrXfwpELBFIgiSMEWNsC4e+Z3HtSajcl+pFZsP7ciiSoycj/w3wIV kAZoVGbhyIbNG7fbCEJ8q81TbfsGypV3bRmbZVvGNecBguYiooBtz2Qht1p3itXMkIA6P9pS YDl+6QddZLyUUAjAnFv2QDoYSHLnaDUWw4oONZsB0SKVu8jMIBh4uJZoYEOvdvc9jQQdOpA2 CAgA6ulfm42Ikr9lKBUUCtjqiWAhJ7iXOTyHAIdR4Mf8alCE6tdTq6dHdIt+GktTY7oYNyL2 3aD3C7I5waU0SFXvJcOMG10QLfwYQMOQoYQ9XJ0U5A28WYiDcylDdUWT7SappP1e1ZMeJWWO y14mxxNzHaJSI4rK8P/p5tp3Q7SSC4k5gMh9zKba3K2ApCWNbVLGvXsJeQkZZNvu70tE81ey AHI5iZcB6D7WaHysBUmsKaEpbcmm1ZThTnGL0SHEl5to5Jab5Fg6O+Cnly5sVz5lX/v8Aosx kKNei7SCVqXOVtteQeGxWbXWbhPgbMyc0Gi3DuxBI/yvJ43k/rJysQlLGLWfJx/UXprwLluC PDK9EvKEB+fD1Z349uzp1sKr3ihpySbyKI8fpudftnAz4EsoCwARAQABzSZHcmFoYW0gUGVy cmluIDxncmFoYW1wZXJyaW5AZ21haWwuY29tPsLBlAQTAQoAPhYhBFk/5bLDBwftvJcvCrdn SG9KGNQLBQJoRALAAhsDBQkPEg5ABQsJCAcDBRUKCQgLBRYDAgEAAh4FAheAAAoJELdnSG9K GNQL8YkP/2V1z6XQDyG1QlKAu8TuE8zDWy9QQKjC/G44hlu5zk+2kWSNk4zeExs9ZXOBmVhF EW1d+1J8wDiYIeKYj/rqMoP+gb8o0Au0lSRitvTdLxkZBFGMn0CEzlDOzv+wmiy0ggAV/s+Y EbiHk12fI0LoTy5/ywdmG/uGS7M6p3XOrM0YO1qmLXy1cUyYDsYIpq5/rT0QzpGowsJLoEA3 zz1vfKVY+RTorsL4W8ljXLmcs4c3b3HZG9Xmgtt+Ni/eb9CjzM7kCXOcSMnVzvfscCowPAwB 0ZHlNxNV0MTa61xgvOCk4Zf278ArRgbTm4oOz9Z4ciPMnVue+9P/VdxIxgUuYkAryM0+agGz L9bd8ljn+efNtgZ5dlDLrNnTE+vWnMVlMXgl7BNnhwHg7UYFLrC2xklsICub0qpnNheTGeqo 0N4UongJTQJ6H6LEpgd+KMkCncAHghED/G0/BUdO90VEOoqnIKwKa+F9NqVMvHWc8D58mwCP FghsmxK9FM9pnsjLmG7u+s51Y7++GSRnU4NkI4tHiVk7hcAcvZuc0QbUDwVMTurDUgIqRo6W 80j1tFjEspkrwtMoeVFEkDHktjoc3AoEymXIncZfqIqi3nVseyDVyNByvkV0mutX9hXqac0/ RXMuyK9KniAUZ9+gsWs4rPs/DOdsw4K8/RnjduBrfCYQzsFNBGKYt7ABEADRb1tZuh7DPYET 0wK6fe7owbYgM+RfKhmcrGgR2HI9M2q6+0WKF/ITnggWdIW2Ecc4z2boLz/cwvPGCS7/YxZM 61KklGCwuS7q1s04XnHDWHuFxfXQPzAdVmNO3bYoMZbJjHXs6sB2u5ksiwPwaMAWWaGkviSj c5pwvHCiTmX5vH5CBj/Vi+5ESyX38vK4JM5S/m4ouI/6M9biyFgimV+v3vVyCxJCT1gI9g4o GIh1qq5S433b1fihn4yHPf8XOKyBpA/QcwLONViBqJL5nnOxpsh344rNxn2R7CcRzzicOV+e 2IbMem4lwNWQlZKoRotKXZi9LqN5mynSBYqAUdoZum0QinWT9F22B0Qex5PH1zAt9i2W91Vd kcPB3LwkRXj07ycRtsSzpgPA6fLc6AsoWFslHl8kVOO5eJIA4xhjlPa+W8lguQHZ0iX+5uAv 2eAgXR2swADuHPuENNFStmsgAMl8OOOgtq75yA5TpyIzxMuXV9Nmp0VfIaUM/IdLdmxhc1pC c320l5fYMHVLFAReWEbSj2QH8YzWfpXHIegutWWYEbH9SiDXgS9KoKmCJV/Qa+x6/b8y3pOZ vnIbCDaynC2Yr50s8gRa9kb54JE8Z+p8r16U3SEsK3PtUi0RF0e51danCVHrrE6/Hat2XUO/ 6nnYgVgFOrLao6Gh/VMs8wARAQABwsF8BBgBCgAmFiEEWT/lssMHB+28ly8Kt2dIb0oY1AsF AmhEAsACGwwFCQ8SDkAACgkQt2dIb0oY1AvQxw//REWYFK2m4yS/QP5kzfhkWcNqDI/akGT5 /LXmdmbc1s78+mOMXnA4vBY/+X1QatgxWUECkPDOiIwXJMxoBuyY8e7spLRXeyhtfh5aYaJc MO5bARX0c49v+KfZ80u9tG2rkKQvAt/ySo7OXsbDADFFRhlc8RLbb8e7bSctGbYZk9CYa0ya dW5+n3znDNJ6yW1skx9wTH+Y8VlSazRLk3XgXscNqBA2h56v3WS/R5dI++7AQxZxSQacQvfj 9eahq7ATdB4zMQ9MBHEwOvGD3DLlc55FYSDZvNX+mhnK7S0t1Nt2EtGUOmXb5ysMFGnbsce0 woKQ0sLPF1HWDAAf7tBCF8mpPIzU/ViAkupsJ6NYCD0tLFD8pvl0NYU2TjvyWh6ie3e5B/b3 8Daiyme+M92ivfoRQOFKmkPfeT14AI6OW1k7qFbmoIwMWWQdFWAl1CP9hNdF9gRN4rFB0Jy1 90BajZW2zOdVfqdurJZegCzAowZalLm4JEK2MklpPzipibnJqhLOmvJy587pF52KDdM/4rLy BBREIm7uRivnO5k/BY5qS+H/aqv97LC0PVaTsLXbDmTxTnJplUpdlYT9NGidM+x/ioS0iztO Cht7cT8V8jvvKZYvNpst8iqxuIaoV9V7aZ0wAQpkgDGXHmSzwtz6U8xNf/4e4sLn9KPlldSd kvo= In-Reply-To: <9300201D-9D53-449B-9F0A-DFF6194B2830@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20230601]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[grahamperrin]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org,freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::32c:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4cFLVD1J7Vz3Xsn On 31/08/2025 09:38, Mark Millard wrote: > … > > It would appear that RAM==4GiBytes without SWAP would not be > generally supported by pkg as stands. Testing hw.physmem="4G" > without SWAP . . . > > OOM KILLS result: > > # pkg upgrade -rFreeBSD-ports -fUy > Checking for upgrades (1485 candidates): 100% > Processing candidates (1485 candidates): 100% > Checking integrity...Child process pid=2219 terminated abnormally: Killed > > … Retry three or more times. The integrity check might succeed. (I ran tests, albeit not the same set of FreeBSD-ports packages, with 1 GB memory given to a VirtualBox guest on fast physical storage. Booted from FreeBSD-14.3-RELEASE-amd64-dvd1.iso, installed all components then converted to pkgbase before first boot of the installed system. No swap in that environment.) 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[89.241.205.78]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ffacd0b85a97d-3d6376546c6sm1971070f8f.60.2025.08.31.12.01.55 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 31 Aug 2025 12:01:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <6d1606ac-8ad0-4f15-96c7-30c6f50ca9b9@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2025 20:01:55 +0100 List-Id: Packaging the FreeBSD base system List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-pkgbase List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: pkg upgrade, vfs.zfs.arc.free_target, vfs.zfs.arc.sys_free, vm.pageout_oom_seq To: freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org References: <0dbf8c95-7697-4887-a890-335c3ccd80f1@gmail.com> <29ff7f7e-12ef-4d10-8ca4-15ae35ce6bae@gmail.com> <19251E67-BC92-4D71-9E71-6C7546A46D8C@yahoo.com> <9300201D-9D53-449B-9F0A-DFF6194B2830@yahoo.com> Content-Language: en-GB From: Graham Perrin Autocrypt: addr=grahamperrin@gmail.com; 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charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.31 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.31)[-0.313]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20230601]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[grahamperrin]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org,freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::42b:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4cFLwC5YFgz3cdW On 31/08/2025 09:38, Mark Millard wrote: > … > > So 4 GiBytyes of RAM is insufficient, even with use of: vm.pageout_oom_seq=120 > > Note: In this context increases is not going to help: it is way too little RAM > for pkg. (I was observing via top at the time.) > > If pkg continues to require such RAM+SWAP usage, FreeBSD is going to end up > requiring more than, say, 5 GiBytes of RAM+SWAP, even for UFS contexts. > >> … > > For reference, see: > > https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-pkgbase/2025-August/000804.html > > with details of my test context (where swap was in use). Interesting. Here, with faster storage for a new guest, 1,024 MB base memory was enough – for both UFS and ZFS – as outlined below. ---- VirtualBox bidirectional shared clipboard 1 GB memory EFI four processors PAE/NX VBoxSVGA FreeBSD-14.3-RELEASE-amd64-dvd1.iso disable host I/O cache vm.pageout_oom_seq=120 UFS 3 G swap install all components pkbasify conversion before first boot (519 packages) first boot vm.pageout_oom_seq=120 pkg install -Fy firefox gitup htop hw-probe kde lsblk lynx nano pciutils plasma6-sddm-kcm roxterm sddm stressdisk uclcmd usbutils virtualbox-ose-additions xfce xorg pkg install -Uy firefox gitup htop hw-probe kde lsblk lynx nano pciutils plasma6-sddm-kcm roxterm sddm stressdisk uclcmd usbutils virtualbox-ose-additions xfce xorg pkg upgrade -fFqy pkg upgrade -fUy 1353 packages 2601 steps success vm.pageout_oom_seq=12 pkg upgrade -fUy success ---- The same with ZFS. 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 3123809495f6ac07a52b187b9760d06b; Sun, 31 Aug 2025 19:35:46 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 List-Id: Packaging the FreeBSD base system List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-pkgbase List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.700.81\)) Subject: Re: pkg upgrade, vfs.zfs.arc.free_target, vfs.zfs.arc.sys_free, vm.pageout_oom_seq From: Mark Millard In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2025 12:35:35 -0700 Cc: freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <0dbf8c95-7697-4887-a890-335c3ccd80f1@gmail.com> <29ff7f7e-12ef-4d10-8ca4-15ae35ce6bae@gmail.com> <19251E67-BC92-4D71-9E71-6C7546A46D8C@yahoo.com> <9300201D-9D53-449B-9F0A-DFF6194B2830@yahoo.com> To: Graham Perrin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.700.81) X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36647, ipnet:98.137.64.0/20, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4cFMgB14wjz3kb4 On Aug 31, 2025, at 11:42, Graham Perrin wrote: > On 31/08/2025 09:38, Mark Millard wrote: >=20 >> =E2=80=A6 >>=20 >> It would appear that RAM=3D=3D4GiBytes without SWAP would not be >> generally supported by pkg as stands. Testing hw.physmem=3D"4G" >> without SWAP . . . >>=20 >> OOM KILLS result: >>=20 >> # pkg upgrade -rFreeBSD-ports -fUy >> Checking for upgrades (1485 candidates): 100% >> Processing candidates (1485 candidates): 100% >> Checking integrity...Child process pid=3D2219 terminated abnormally: = Killed >>=20 >> =E2=80=A6 >=20 >=20 > Retry three or more times. The integrity check might succeed. >=20 > (I ran tests, albeit not the same set of FreeBSD-ports packages, with = 1 GB memory given to a VirtualBox guest on fast physical storage. Booted = from FreeBSD-14.3-RELEASE-amd64-dvd1.iso, installed all components then = converted to pkgbase before first boot of the installed system. No swap = in that environment.) >=20 Turns out I do not seen to involve adding any packages from your example to my context: So far, my original set of packages lead to -fUy failing every time it is tried for 4 GiByte of RAM (no SWAP). What top shows is Laundry (so: known dirty pages that are not active) growing until there can not be enough Free RAM to meet FreeBSD's threshold requirements. Re-enabling the SWAP and trying without your package examples being added (so: fewer packages overall), leads to the Maximum Swap Used being 799716Ki, with the peak being during later Installing/Extracting activity, not during the integrity check. So: (RAM+SWAP) approx.=3D 4.8 GiBytes (so a fraction under 5 GiBYtes) --instead of a fraction under 6 GiBytes with the extra packages. 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 4c48267e1867581015c0a9bae2c70d1f; Sun, 31 Aug 2025 19:59:41 +0000 (UTC) From: Mark Millard Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Id: Packaging the FreeBSD base system List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-pkgbase List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.700.81\)) Subject: I just made a typo in a glob pattern for a pkg delete -g (no -a and no force) and mistakenly then selected Y, leading to partial partial system destruction before I stopped it Message-Id: <543E0A7A-8C65-43B7-8CC3-13D0D86F4085@yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2025 12:59:30 -0700 To: FreeBSD-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.700.81) References: <543E0A7A-8C65-43B7-8CC3-13D0D86F4085.ref@yahoo.com> X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com:dkim]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36647, ipnet:98.137.64.0/20, country:US]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[FreeBSD-pkgbase@freebsd.org]; APPLE_MAILER_COMMON(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[98.137.68.31:from]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[98.137.68.31:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4cFNBm2kFYz3nyc (The glob pattern was expected to match a lot of port-packages, more than shows in a window in the context.) I really wish that the likes of: # pkg delete -r FreeBSD-ports -g . . . was supported in order to avoid mistakes being much bigger than they need to be. Also of note: it started deleting the system before deleting any port-packages, even though the port-apcagkes depend on the system. === Mark Millard marklmi at yahoo.com