From owner-cvs-usrbin Sun Dec 29 02:54:38 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id CAA23070 for cvs-usrbin-outgoing; Sun, 29 Dec 1996 02:54:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from joerg@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id CAA23062; Sun, 29 Dec 1996 02:54:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 02:54:37 -0800 (PST) From: Joerg Wunsch Message-Id: <199612291054.CAA23062@freefall.freebsd.org> To: CVS-committers, cvs-all, cvs-usrbin Subject: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/ee/doc Artistic ee.i18n.guide new_curse.c new_curse.h src/usr.bin/ee/nls/de_DE.ISO_8859-1 ee.msg src/usr.bin/ee/nls/fr_FR.ISO_8859-1 ee.msg src/usr.bin/ee ee.1 ee.c new_curse.c new_curse.h README.ee create.make make.default src/usr.bin/ee/nls/en_US.ISO_8859-1 ee.msg Sender: owner-cvs-usrbin@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk joerg 96/12/29 02:54:37 Modified: usr.bin/ee ee.1 ee.c new_curse.c new_curse.h usr.bin/ee/nls/de_DE.ISO_8859-1 ee.msg usr.bin/ee/nls/en_US.ISO_8859-1 ee.msg usr.bin/ee/nls/fr_FR.ISO_8859-1 ee.msg Removed: usr.bin/ee README.ee create.make make.default usr.bin/ee/doc Artistic ee.i18n.guide new_curse.c new_curse.h Log: Merge ee version 1.3 from the vendor branch. Clean up files we've got in a different location. (Sigh, the initial import gratuitously changed the directory structure here, rendering the vendor branch a little useless.) Note: the French message catalog needs updating. By now, i've simply appended the English messages. NB: French message # 123 has been wrong, please correct whoever is going to deal with this. Revision Changes Path 1.4 +24 -3 src/usr.bin/ee/ee.1 1.7 +439 -106 src/usr.bin/ee/ee.c 1.2 +100 -146 src/usr.bin/ee/new_curse.c 1.2 +1 -2 src/usr.bin/ee/new_curse.h 1.3 +13 -1 src/usr.bin/ee/nls/de_DE.ISO_8859-1/ee.msg 1.3 +13 -1 src/usr.bin/ee/nls/en_US.ISO_8859-1/ee.msg 1.3 +14 -2 src/usr.bin/ee/nls/fr_FR.ISO_8859-1/ee.msg From owner-cvs-usrbin Mon Dec 30 01:24:22 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id BAA11113 for cvs-usrbin-outgoing; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 01:24:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from peter@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id BAA11106; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 01:24:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 01:24:20 -0800 (PST) From: Peter Wemm Message-Id: <199612300924.BAA11106@freefall.freebsd.org> To: CVS-committers, cvs-all, cvs-usrbin Subject: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/vi Makefile Sender: owner-cvs-usrbin@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk peter 96/12/30 01:24:20 Modified: usr.bin/vi Makefile Log: When using the perl5 extensions, ask perl itself what the pathnames are, don't just hard code them into the Makefile. (This is the optional stuff to use perl scripts as a vi scripting language. eg, to load a sample script, type: :perl do 'wc.pl'; this loads /usr/share/vi/perl/wc.pl to add the "wc" command. Then, one can do this: :perl wc Yes, this is a trivial example. There are more useful examples, eg 'make' output parsing along the lines of emacs's "compile" mode. The tcl extension is similar and enabled by default since we ship with tcl.) Revision Changes Path 1.11 +17 -8 src/usr.bin/vi/Makefile From owner-cvs-usrbin Mon Dec 30 01:39:00 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id BAA13948 for cvs-usrbin-outgoing; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 01:39:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from spinner.DIALix.COM (root@spinner.DIALix.COM [192.203.228.67]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id BAA13685; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 01:38:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from spinner.DIALix.COM (peter@localhost.DIALix.oz.au [127.0.0.1]) by spinner.DIALix.COM (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA02449; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 17:38:30 +0800 (WST) Message-Id: <199612300938.RAA02449@spinner.DIALix.COM> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Peter Wemm cc: CVS-committers@freefall.freebsd.org, cvs-all@freefall.freebsd.org, cvs-usrbin@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/vi Makefile In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 30 Dec 1996 01:24:20 PST." <199612300924.BAA11106@freefall.freebsd.org> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 17:38:30 +0800 From: Peter Wemm Sender: owner-cvs-usrbin@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Peter Wemm wrote: > (This is the optional stuff to use perl scripts as a vi scripting language. > eg, to load a sample script, type: :perl do 'wc.pl'; > this loads /usr/share/vi/perl/wc.pl to add the "wc" command. Then, one can > do this: :perl wc Yes, this is a trivial example. There are more > useful examples, eg 'make' output parsing along the lines of emacs's > "compile" mode. The tcl extension is similar and enabled by default since > we ship with tcl.) BTW, the tcl stuff seems to be accessed with ":tcl source ", but unlike the perl extension it doesn't seem to search it's /usr/share/vi/tcl directory by default, I don't know why. (I don't know tcl at all, it kinda annoys me that we have tcl in the tree and and can use it with vi, but we don't have perl5) Double BTW: I noticed that the majordomo-1.94.1 port no longer works with perl4. /usr/bin/perl explodes on one of the regexps in majordomo.pl. The port needs to be updated to be dependent on the perl5 port (and the default use of /usr/tmp needs to be fixed too since it's not a standard part of FreeBSD and the port can't be built as is) Cheers, -Peter From owner-cvs-usrbin Mon Dec 30 07:26:54 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id HAA01797 for cvs-usrbin-outgoing; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 07:26:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from peter@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id HAA01790; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 07:26:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 07:26:53 -0800 (PST) From: Peter Wemm Message-Id: <199612301526.HAA01790@freefall.freebsd.org> To: CVS-committers, cvs-all, cvs-usrbin Subject: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/rup rup.c Sender: owner-cvs-usrbin@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk peter 96/12/30 07:26:52 Modified: usr.bin/rup rup.c Log: Fix bug found by newly visible prototypes in rpc. The code was passing an in to a function instead of a "struct timeval". Revision Changes Path 1.5 +5 -2 src/usr.bin/rup/rup.c From owner-cvs-usrbin Mon Dec 30 07:28:40 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id HAA01922 for cvs-usrbin-outgoing; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 07:28:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from peter@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id HAA01915; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 07:28:39 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 07:28:39 -0800 (PST) From: Peter Wemm Message-Id: <199612301528.HAA01915@freefall.freebsd.org> To: CVS-committers, cvs-all, cvs-usrbin Subject: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/rusers rusers.c Sender: owner-cvs-usrbin@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk peter 96/12/30 07:28:39 Modified: usr.bin/rusers rusers.c Log: Fix bug found by newly visible function pointer prototypes. This was passing an int to something expecting a "struct timeval". I've guessed at a timeout to replace it with.. Revision Changes Path 1.3 +5 -2 src/usr.bin/rusers/rusers.c From owner-cvs-usrbin Mon Dec 30 07:30:13 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id HAA02080 for cvs-usrbin-outgoing; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 07:30:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from peter@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id HAA02073; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 07:30:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 07:30:12 -0800 (PST) From: Peter Wemm Message-Id: <199612301530.HAA02073@freefall.freebsd.org> To: CVS-committers, cvs-all, cvs-usrbin Subject: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/rwall rwall.c Sender: owner-cvs-usrbin@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk peter 96/12/30 07:30:12 Modified: usr.bin/rwall rwall.c Log: Fix bug found by new prototypes. The code was passing an int to a function that was expecting a "struct timeval" on the stack. I've guessed at a suitable replacement timeout. Revision Changes Path 1.3 +5 -2 src/usr.bin/rwall/rwall.c From owner-cvs-usrbin Mon Dec 30 12:06:29 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id MAA15259 for cvs-usrbin-outgoing; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 12:06:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA15252; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 12:06:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA15615; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 12:06:03 -0800 (PST) To: Peter Wemm cc: Peter Wemm , CVS-committers@freefall.freebsd.org, cvs-all@freefall.freebsd.org, cvs-usrbin@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/vi Makefile In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 30 Dec 1996 17:38:30 +0800." <199612300938.RAA02449@spinner.DIALix.COM> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 12:06:03 -0800 Message-ID: <15611.851976363@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-cvs-usrbin@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > BTW, the tcl stuff seems to be accessed with ":tcl source ", but > unlike the perl extension it doesn't seem to search it's /usr/share/vi/tcl > directory by default, I don't know why. (I don't know tcl at all, it > kinda annoys me that we have tcl in the tree and and can use it with vi, > but we don't have perl5) I was just going to comment that perhaps its time to throw out perl4 and adopt perl5 in our main tree. Yes, I know it's 3 times larger, but this way we would at least be supporting the version of perl that everyone seems to be migrating to, we could get rid of the perl5 port, and we could also start using and supporting some of perl5's optional packages. I think it's worth the bloat if we're going to be supporting perl as a standard component at all. Jordan From owner-cvs-usrbin Mon Dec 30 12:51:28 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id MAA18076 for cvs-usrbin-outgoing; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 12:51:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA18002; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 12:50:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id VAA13647; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 21:50:36 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id VAA14026; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 21:50:35 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.4/8.6.9) id VAA13183; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 21:28:45 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199612302028.VAA13183@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/vi Makefile To: CVS-committers@freefall.freebsd.org Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 21:28:45 +0100 (MET) Cc: peter@spinner.dialix.com, peter@freefall.freebsd.org, CVS-committers@freefall.freebsd.org, cvs-all@freefall.freebsd.org, cvs-usrbin@freefall.freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <15611.851976363@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Dec 30, 96 12:06:03 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-cvs-usrbin@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > I was just going to comment that perhaps its time to throw out perl4 > and adopt perl5 in our main tree. Yes, I know it's 3 times larger, > but... Couldn't we find a ``golden way'' to only commit the basic parts to the base tree, while leaving all the more obscure modules in portsland? -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-cvs-usrbin Mon Dec 30 13:15:29 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA20385 for cvs-usrbin-outgoing; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 13:15:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from ravenock.cybercity.dk (ravenock.cybercity.dk [194.16.57.32]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id NAA20336; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 13:14:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ravenock.cybercity.dk (8.8.4/8.7.3) id WAA00527; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 22:13:40 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199612302113.WAA00527@ravenock.cybercity.dk> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/vi Makefile In-Reply-To: <199612302028.VAA13183@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Dec 30, 96 09:28:45 pm" To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 22:13:31 +0100 (MET) Cc: CVS-committers@freefall.freebsd.org, peter@spinner.dialix.com, peter@freefall.freebsd.org, cvs-all@freefall.freebsd.org, cvs-usrbin@freefall.freebsd.org From: sos@FreeBSD.org Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-cvs-usrbin@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to J Wunsch who wrote: > As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > I was just going to comment that perhaps its time to throw out perl4 > > and adopt perl5 in our main tree. Yes, I know it's 3 times larger, > > but... > > Couldn't we find a ``golden way'' to only commit the basic parts to > the base tree, while leaving all the more obscure modules in > portsland? Ahem, I won't even comment on this, you all know my POV, but if it should go in, PLEASE as little as possible.... What would the sentiment be if I made it possible to build a FreeBSD-lite out of our sources, ie "make lite" ?? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Søren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team Even more code to hack -- will it ever end .. From owner-cvs-usrbin Mon Dec 30 13:33:45 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA22277 for cvs-usrbin-outgoing; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 13:33:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id NAA22209; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 13:33:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA25126; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 13:32:59 -0800 (PST) To: sos@FreeBSD.org cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, CVS-committers@freefall.freebsd.org, peter@spinner.dialix.com, peter@freefall.freebsd.org, cvs-all@freefall.freebsd.org, cvs-usrbin@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/vi Makefile In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 30 Dec 1996 22:13:31 +0100." <199612302113.WAA00527@ravenock.cybercity.dk> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 13:32:58 -0800 Message-ID: <25122.851981578@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-cvs-usrbin@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Ahem, I won't even comment on this, you all know my POV, but if > it should go in, PLEASE as little as possible.... > > What would the sentiment be if I made it possible to build > a FreeBSD-lite out of our sources, ie "make lite" ?? This seems to imply that you're taking a "standard" FreeBSD source/binary tree and removing things, which sounds backward. If you don't want something like perl5 in your system, you shouldn't load it in the first place, and solving this problem is really more a matter of further compartmentalizing the bin and src distributions so that it's possible for us to say that. If we give the user the facilities necessary for sub-selecting a FreeBSD installation to that degree, we can make "FreeBSD, the superset" essentially as large as we want. I still wouldn't want to make it *too* large, since developers still bear the brunt of grabbing the whole thing, but I think we've nonetheless got to admit to ourselves that we're only going to continue to add software to the system as it evolves. That's OK, just so long as we make it also possible for the minimalists to pick and choose only the components they need. The bin distribution has always been too big, and I think we've always known that. Garrett had some ideas for subsecting it which I didn't like, but only because of where he drew the lines, not because he drew them. I'd also more than welcome a wider discussion on breaking this into smaller logical pieces since I think there are probably as many distinct points of view on that as there are core team members. :-) Jordan From owner-cvs-usrbin Mon Dec 30 13:43:16 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA22976 for cvs-usrbin-outgoing; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 13:43:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from spinner.DIALix.COM (root@spinner.DIALix.COM [192.203.228.67]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id NAA22967; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 13:43:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from spinner.DIALix.COM (peter@localhost.DIALix.oz.au [127.0.0.1]) by spinner.DIALix.COM (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id FAA00844; Tue, 31 Dec 1996 05:42:35 +0800 (WST) Message-Id: <199612302142.FAA00844@spinner.DIALix.COM> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: sos@FreeBSD.org cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, CVS-committers@freefall.freebsd.org, cvs-all@freefall.freebsd.org, cvs-usrbin@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/vi Makefile In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 30 Dec 1996 22:13:31 +0100." <199612302113.WAA00527@ravenock.cybercity.dk> Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 05:42:34 +0800 From: Peter Wemm Sender: owner-cvs-usrbin@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk sos@FreeBSD.org wrote: > In reply to J Wunsch who wrote: > > As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > > I was just going to comment that perhaps its time to throw out perl4 > > > and adopt perl5 in our main tree. Yes, I know it's 3 times larger, > > > but... > > > > Couldn't we find a ``golden way'' to only commit the basic parts to > > the base tree, while leaving all the more obscure modules in > > portsland? > > Ahem, I won't even comment on this, you all know my POV, but if > it should go in, PLEASE as little as possible.... For what it's worth, I agree. The reason nobody has sat down and figured out how to do it is because it's not exactly trivial. I'm sure it would be relatively simple to bring in the whole kit, kitchen sink and all, but that's probably the worst possible outcome as practially nobody would be happy. It is vital though, that we don't loose any "core" functionality or the compatabilty problems would also make it useless. > What would the sentiment be if I made it possible to build > a FreeBSD-lite out of our sources, ie "make lite" ?? I could agree to something like that. I think the key would be to get people figure out how to conditionalise the parts that they don't want, sort out the mess an make some /etc/make.conf knobs for the useful ones. Things that spring to mind include (so far): perl4, perl5 (when/if), tcl, vi, gcc, gdb, libg++, bind, groff, all YP code, cvs, rcs, texinfo, sgml tools, tar, manpages, xntpd, amd, sendmail, ee, compress, telnet, uucp, and so on. Have I left out anybody's pet program? :-) Obviously if one disables groff, they dont get manpages and so on. We are talking about built-time options, aren't we? I think that going this far on packaging stuff for CD or release would be a mistake. But allowing somebody to cast off manpages and other fruit and still have a buildable system for running on their microwave oven doesn't bother me - but the idea of fragmenting the picture of what a "standard" "as-shipped" freebsd looks like does. Cheers, -Peter From owner-cvs-usrbin Mon Dec 30 14:23:00 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA24898 for cvs-usrbin-outgoing; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 14:23:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from ravenock.cybercity.dk (ravenock.cybercity.dk [194.16.57.32]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA24864; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 14:22:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ravenock.cybercity.dk (8.8.4/8.7.3) id XAA00724; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 23:18:22 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199612302218.XAA00724@ravenock.cybercity.dk> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/vi Makefile In-Reply-To: <25122.851981578@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Dec 30, 96 01:32:58 pm" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 23:18:13 +0100 (MET) Cc: sos@FreeBSD.org, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, CVS-committers@freefall.freebsd.org, peter@spinner.dialix.com, peter@freefall.freebsd.org, cvs-all@freefall.freebsd.org, cvs-usrbin@freefall.freebsd.org From: sos@FreeBSD.org Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-cvs-usrbin@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Jordan K. Hubbard who wrote: > > Ahem, I won't even comment on this, you all know my POV, but if > > it should go in, PLEASE as little as possible.... > > > > What would the sentiment be if I made it possible to build > > a FreeBSD-lite out of our sources, ie "make lite" ?? > > This seems to imply that you're taking a "standard" FreeBSD > source/binary tree and removing things, which sounds backward. If you > don't want something like perl5 in your system, you shouldn't load it > in the first place, and solving this problem is really more a matter > of further compartmentalizing the bin and src distributions so that > it's possible for us to say that. If you put perl5 in instead of perl4 I have no choice it gets intstalled as part of the base system. I would have worked had it stayed a port.... > If we give the user the facilities necessary for sub-selecting a > FreeBSD installation to that degree, we can make "FreeBSD, the > superset" essentially as large as we want. I still wouldn't want to > make it *too* large, since developers still bear the brunt of grabbing > the whole thing, but I think we've nonetheless got to admit to > ourselves that we're only going to continue to add software to the > system as it evolves. That's OK, just so long as we make it also > possible for the minimalists to pick and choose only the components > they need. What was wrong with the old ways, base & ports ?? I worked pretty well, maybe we should have given it a fancier name or something, but it was the right idea... > The bin distribution has always been too big, and I think we've always > known that. Garrett had some ideas for subsecting it which I didn't > like, but only because of where he drew the lines, not because he drew > them. I'd also more than welcome a wider discussion on breaking this > into smaller logical pieces since I think there are probably as many > distinct points of view on that as there are core team members. :-) Well, we certainly have different uses for the system, and that shows up in the ways we want it to be. What I'm advocating is that we keep the base system small and simple (and in good shape with minimal bugs in there etc etc), and then make add ons with all those fancy things you can imagine, we allmost had that in ports, now we can reinvent it and call it something new, like custom, shit thats allready taken, erhm now what... (plenty of :) should be inserted at will) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Søren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team Even more code to hack -- will it ever end .. From owner-cvs-usrbin Mon Dec 30 14:24:47 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA25042 for cvs-usrbin-outgoing; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 14:24:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA25020; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 14:24:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from ravenock.cybercity.dk (ravenock.cybercity.dk [194.16.57.32]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id OAA24348 ; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 14:24:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ravenock.cybercity.dk (8.8.4/8.7.3) id XAA00711; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 23:11:46 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199612302211.XAA00711@ravenock.cybercity.dk> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/vi Makefile In-Reply-To: <199612302142.FAA00844@spinner.DIALix.COM> from Peter Wemm at "Dec 31, 96 05:42:34 am" To: peter@spinner.DIALix.COM (Peter Wemm) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 23:11:37 +0100 (MET) Cc: sos@FreeBSD.org, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, CVS-committers@freefall.freebsd.org, cvs-all@freefall.freebsd.org, cvs-usrbin@freefall.freebsd.org From: sos@FreeBSD.org Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-cvs-usrbin@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Peter Wemm who wrote: > sos@FreeBSD.org wrote: > > In reply to J Wunsch who wrote: > > > As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > > > > I was just going to comment that perhaps its time to throw out perl4 > > > > and adopt perl5 in our main tree. Yes, I know it's 3 times larger, > > > > but... > > > > > > Couldn't we find a ``golden way'' to only commit the basic parts to > > > the base tree, while leaving all the more obscure modules in > > > portsland? > > > > Ahem, I won't even comment on this, you all know my POV, but if > > it should go in, PLEASE as little as possible.... > > For what it's worth, I agree. The reason nobody has sat down and figured > out how to do it is because it's not exactly trivial. I'm sure it would > be relatively simple to bring in the whole kit, kitchen sink and all, but > that's probably the worst possible outcome as practially nobody would be > happy. It is vital though, that we don't loose any "core" functionality > or the compatabilty problems would also make it useless. We _had_ a nice system called base system & ports.... Now we have to reinvent that again and call it something new, real progress... > > What would the sentiment be if I made it possible to build > > a FreeBSD-lite out of our sources, ie "make lite" ?? > > I could agree to something like that. I think the key would be to get > people figure out how to conditionalise the parts that they don't want, > sort out the mess an make some /etc/make.conf knobs for the useful ones. > Things that spring to mind include (so far): perl4, perl5 (when/if), tcl, > vi, gcc, gdb, libg++, bind, groff, all YP code, cvs, rcs, texinfo, sgml > tools, tar, manpages, xntpd, amd, sendmail, ee, compress, telnet, uucp, > and so on. Have I left out anybody's pet program? :-) Obviously if one > disables groff, they dont get manpages and so on. > > We are talking about built-time options, aren't we? I think that going > this far on packaging stuff for CD or release would be a mistake. But > allowing somebody to cast off manpages and other fruit and still have a > buildable system for running on their microwave oven doesn't bother me - > but the idea of fragmenting the picture of what a "standard" "as-shipped" > freebsd looks like does. Yes, what I want to do is pollute the makefiles a bit so that I can build a system without some of the monsters in there. It looks an awfull lot like its almost just to throw out contrib and whats depending on that... Well not quite, I'd like gcc & friends to be in there, for now... All in all I just think its rediculous that we have almost doubled the size of of src tree but have gained almost no extra functionality.. (well Billy Boy has a patent on that one, shit...) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Søren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team Even more code to hack -- will it ever end .. From owner-cvs-usrbin Mon Dec 30 14:28:54 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA25336 for cvs-usrbin-outgoing; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 14:28:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from ache@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA25328; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 14:28:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 14:28:52 -0800 (PST) From: "Andrey A. Chernov" Message-Id: <199612302228.OAA25328@freefall.freebsd.org> To: CVS-committers, cvs-all, cvs-usrbin Subject: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/colldef/data de_DE.ISO_8859-1.src es_ES.ISO_8859-1.src Makefile Sender: owner-cvs-usrbin@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ache 96/12/30 14:28:52 Modified: usr.bin/colldef/data Makefile Added: usr.bin/colldef/data de_DE.ISO_8859-1.src es_ES.ISO_8859-1.src Log: Add de and es collates Submitted by: joerg Revision Changes Path 1.4 +14 -4 src/usr.bin/colldef/data/Makefile From owner-cvs-usrbin Mon Dec 30 14:42:54 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA26079 for cvs-usrbin-outgoing; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 14:42:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA26071; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 14:42:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA10805; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 14:42:17 -0800 (PST) To: sos@FreeBSD.org cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, CVS-committers@freefall.freebsd.org, peter@spinner.dialix.com, peter@freefall.freebsd.org, cvs-all@freefall.freebsd.org, cvs-usrbin@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/vi Makefile In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 30 Dec 1996 23:18:13 +0100." <199612302218.XAA00724@ravenock.cybercity.dk> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 14:42:16 -0800 Message-ID: <10780.851985736@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-cvs-usrbin@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > What was wrong with the old ways, base & ports ?? I worked pretty > well, maybe we should have given it a fancier name or something, > but it was the right idea... The right *general* idea, but the number of problems which it leaves unsolved are numerous. We ran into the most obvious one the minute we started writing and incorporating perl utilities into the system, and perl4 slid on in to solve the dependency problem. We will keep having dependency problems and the ports & packages collection will keep being a non-solution to them for just as long as we keep it fully decoupled from the source & binary distribution system. I'm not even sure that keeping it decoupled is such a bad idea, but you can't have it both ways - either the ports and packages collection remain ideologically and functionally separate, and things like Perl5 and TCL come into the tree in order to solve our basic tool dependency issues, or ports and packages becomes part of a more cohesive load-on-demand system where the line between initially loaded distributions and packages goes away entirely (same for sources and "ports") and we stop even worrying about this, since the user will configure his system in much the same way as the VM system fills the buffer cache - on demand! :-) However, the latter is also a lot of work. Jordan From owner-cvs-usrbin Mon Dec 30 15:21:32 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id PAA28071 for cvs-usrbin-outgoing; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 15:21:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id PAA28041; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 15:20:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id AAA24669; Tue, 31 Dec 1996 00:20:46 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA17715; Tue, 31 Dec 1996 00:20:45 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.4/8.6.9) id AAA18790; Tue, 31 Dec 1996 00:06:59 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199612302306.AAA18790@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/colldef/data de_DE.ISO_8859-1.src es_ES.ISO_8859-1.src Makefile To: ache@freefall.freebsd.org (Andrey A. Chernov) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 00:06:59 +0100 (MET) Cc: CVS-committers@freefall.freebsd.org, cvs-all@freefall.freebsd.org, cvs-usrbin@freefall.freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199612302228.OAA25328@freefall.freebsd.org> from "Andrey A. Chernov" at "Dec 30, 96 02:28:52 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-cvs-usrbin@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Andrey A. Chernov wrote: > Modified: usr.bin/colldef/data Makefile > Added: usr.bin/colldef/data de_DE.ISO_8859-1.src > es_ES.ISO_8859-1.src > Log: > Add de and es collates > Submitted by: joerg Ooops, wouldn't you better pipe the `es' changes through a Spanish native speaker first? It's just been my dictionary-based knowledge what i've presented to you... ;-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-cvs-usrbin Mon Dec 30 15:29:25 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id PAA28349 for cvs-usrbin-outgoing; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 15:29:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id PAA28342; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 15:29:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA13729; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 15:28:49 -0800 (PST) To: sos@FreeBSD.org cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, CVS-committers@freefall.freebsd.org, peter@spinner.dialix.com, peter@freefall.freebsd.org, cvs-all@freefall.freebsd.org, cvs-usrbin@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/vi Makefile In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 31 Dec 1996 00:17:14 +0100." <199612302317.AAA00845@ravenock.cybercity.dk> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 15:28:48 -0800 Message-ID: <13724.851988528@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-cvs-usrbin@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Boy does Linus have it easy, he has just a kernel to worry about... > and the users worries about the rest ;) Yes, he definitely has the easy life by comparison. :) I see a picture forming here, but it's going to be a lot of work. I will send one of my usual long and wordy proposals once I have a better proposed design to advance. Jordan From owner-cvs-usrbin Mon Dec 30 15:32:37 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id PAA28448 for cvs-usrbin-outgoing; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 15:32:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from ravenock.cybercity.dk (ravenock.cybercity.dk [194.16.57.32]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id PAA28441; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 15:32:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ravenock.cybercity.dk (8.8.4/8.7.3) id AAA00845; Tue, 31 Dec 1996 00:17:24 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199612302317.AAA00845@ravenock.cybercity.dk> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/vi Makefile In-Reply-To: <10780.851985736@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Dec 30, 96 02:42:16 pm" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 00:17:14 +0100 (MET) Cc: sos@FreeBSD.org, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, CVS-committers@freefall.freebsd.org, peter@spinner.dialix.com, peter@freefall.freebsd.org, cvs-all@freefall.freebsd.org, cvs-usrbin@freefall.freebsd.org From: sos@FreeBSD.org Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-cvs-usrbin@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Jordan K. Hubbard who wrote: > > What was wrong with the old ways, base & ports ?? I worked pretty > > well, maybe we should have given it a fancier name or something, > > but it was the right idea... > > The right *general* idea, but the number of problems which it leaves > unsolved are numerous. We ran into the most obvious one the minute we > started writing and incorporating perl utilities into the system, and > perl4 slid on in to solve the dependency problem. We will keep having > dependency problems and the ports & packages collection will keep > being a non-solution to them for just as long as we keep it fully > decoupled from the source & binary distribution system. No problem, perl utils etc have no place in the "base" distrib, problem solved, case closed. And most of the perl utils we have could have been written in C or sh just as easily, they NEVER justified bringing in perl. But then perl justified TCL and then..... > I'm not even sure that keeping it decoupled is such a bad idea, but > you can't have it both ways - either the ports and packages collection > remain ideologically and functionally separate, and things like Perl5 > and TCL come into the tree in order to solve our basic tool dependency > issues, or ports and packages becomes part of a more cohesive > load-on-demand system where the line between initially loaded > distributions and packages goes away entirely (same for sources and > "ports") and we stop even worrying about this, since the user will > configure his system in much the same way as the VM system fills the > buffer cache - on demand! :-) Exactly, its a bit more work, but much more usefull, both to the mimimalists and those that wants the kitchen zink > However, the latter is also a lot of work. Ah, thats the bugger :) Actually no as I see it, we are now extending the base system for which (at least I) feels a deep responsibility for keeping in a working sane condition, THAT means more work, and most of it in areas that I dont need, each time a new monster gets in there. If we keep things seperate, its will be easier to distribute responsibility of those subsystems, and if they fall behind, one can just leave them out and thats it. We need to build a dependency system that then can pull in those ports that are needed when you want to install the kitchen zink etc, but that is a one time charge. It seems we have been bitten by the "easy way out" beast again.. Boy does Linus have it easy, he has just a kernel to worry about... and the users worries about the rest ;) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Søren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team Even more code to hack -- will it ever end .. From owner-cvs-usrbin Mon Dec 30 16:36:25 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id QAA02833 for cvs-usrbin-outgoing; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 16:36:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from spinner.DIALix.COM (root@spinner.DIALix.COM [192.203.228.67]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA02825; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 16:36:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from spinner.DIALix.COM (peter@localhost.DIALix.oz.au [127.0.0.1]) by spinner.DIALix.COM (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA01892; Tue, 31 Dec 1996 08:36:05 +0800 (WST) Message-Id: <199612310036.IAA01892@spinner.DIALix.COM> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: sos@FreeBSD.org cc: CVS-committers@freefall.freebsd.org, cvs-all@freefall.freebsd.org, cvs-usrbin@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/vi Makefile In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 30 Dec 1996 23:11:37 +0100." <199612302211.XAA00711@ravenock.cybercity.dk> Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 08:36:04 +0800 From: Peter Wemm Sender: owner-cvs-usrbin@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [Whoo.. this is going to be a loong day...] sos@FreeBSD.org wrote: > In reply to Peter Wemm who wrote: > > sos@FreeBSD.org wrote: > > > In reply to J Wunsch who wrote: > > > > As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > > > > > > I was just going to comment that perhaps its time to throw out perl4 > > > > > and adopt perl5 in our main tree. Yes, I know it's 3 times larger, > > > > > but... > > > > > > > > Couldn't we find a ``golden way'' to only commit the basic parts to > > > > the base tree, while leaving all the more obscure modules in > > > > portsland? > > > > > > Ahem, I won't even comment on this, you all know my POV, but if > > > it should go in, PLEASE as little as possible.... > > > > For what it's worth, I agree. The reason nobody has sat down and figured > > out how to do it is because it's not exactly trivial. I'm sure it would > > be relatively simple to bring in the whole kit, kitchen sink and all, but > > that's probably the worst possible outcome as practially nobody would be > > happy. It is vital though, that we don't loose any "core" functionality > > or the compatabilty problems would also make it useless. > > We _had_ a nice system called base system & ports.... The software world in which base and ports were designed (4?) years ago has changed dramatically. It used to be that everything was in C and everything was standalone and easily paritioned into nice seperate standalone compoments. Today, we have a world where a lot of stuff is being integrated beyond pipes, extension languages are here and in *demand* and a enough of the current versions of the "base" components have evolved to use them. The seperate base+ports system has never been able to cope with that, because the base components are increasingly depending on stuff that's traditionally been in ports. Today, the lines are very blurred. > Now we have to reinvent that again and call it something new, real > progress... No, the problems today are mainly because the ports system is free form. OK, so components are usually installed under /usr/local, but a big issue was made over "Don't tell me what do do with *my* /usr/local", so eveything was made so it could just as easily happen to end up in /foo instead. To cope with this would mean obfuscating the "base" build system even more. > Yes, what I want to do is pollute the makefiles a bit so that I can > build a system without some of the monsters in there. It looks an awfull > lot like its almost just to throw out contrib and whats depending on > that... Well not quite, I'd like gcc & friends to be in there, for now... > All in all I just think its rediculous that we have almost doubled > the size of of src tree but have gained almost no extra functionality.. > (well Billy Boy has a patent on that one, shit...) gcc and the entire development suite should be one of the first things that should be broken out since a lot of real users don't need it (and even run kernel.GENERIC). gcc, gdb and libg++ are the single biggest users of src/contrib, with 45MB between them. They are the very first things that should go out if we're going to have a "remove everything to ports" session (why favour gcc over lcc?). Followed straight after by tcl (why not perl5?), vi (emacs?), groff (not necessary), cvs/rcs (prcs? perforce?), gzip and compress (choice includes arc,zoo,zip,lha etc), sendmail (choose between qmail, zmail, smail). Then, building the "base" (what's left of it) will become a case of fetching a few binary packages, bootstrapping a couple of compilers from source, installing the rest of the packages needed to compile what you've chosen, then do a 'make' which will take 5 minutes. You can't have it both ways. Just because it suits you to have less code and a fragmented system, it doesn't suit me! IMHO, going down this path leads to Linux just with a different kernel - where you get source for components but you need a direct telepathic link to the person who assembled the distribution over a few months in order to figure out how to recreate it. Have you ever wondered why 99.99% of linux systems are installed from binaries and never recompiled? Here, we do one bootstrap install and many then track a branch as they need. As much as I despise the tcl syntax, it, like perl has become as much a part of standard part of "modern unix" as awk, *csh, sed, etc which certainly not part of "original" unix. Unix must evolve with the needs of users in mind or NT will run us down just that bit more easily. Scripting languages (such as perl and tcl) are part of what is needed. Witness the mass revival of BASIC as proof that "ideals" are dead. Anyway.. for a slight change of subject, I wonder what the demographics of our installed systems are like? I would be interested to know what sort of percentages the systems that fall under "dedicated file/network/etc servers", "ISP servers", "unix hobbyist/fanatic toy^H^H^Htools", and "other". Cheers, -Peter From owner-cvs-usrbin Mon Dec 30 17:08:55 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id RAA04043 for cvs-usrbin-outgoing; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 17:08:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA04018; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 17:08:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id LAA08399; Tue, 31 Dec 1996 11:38:09 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199612310108.LAA08399@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/vi Makefile In-Reply-To: <199612302113.WAA00527@ravenock.cybercity.dk> from "sos@FreeBSD.org" at "Dec 30, 96 10:13:31 pm" To: sos@FreeBSD.org Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 11:38:08 +1030 (CST) Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, CVS-committers@freefall.freebsd.org, peter@spinner.dialix.com, peter@freefall.freebsd.org, cvs-all@freefall.freebsd.org, cvs-usrbin@freefall.freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-cvs-usrbin@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk sos@FreeBSD.org stands accused of saying: > > What would the sentiment be if I made it possible to build > a FreeBSD-lite out of our sources, ie "make lite" ?? Er, we've been here before. Last time "yes" was the answer, I can't see it having changed much in two months 8) I'd be inclined to perhaps have a big brawl in order to decide what 'lite' is, and then conditionally exclude stuff from the subdir makefiles on .ifndef MAKE_LITE (or some similar environment variable). - I don't know how this would affect 'make release'. I don't think you'd get much support for a heirachy restructure. > Søren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-cvs-usrbin Mon Dec 30 22:35:23 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id WAA17989 for cvs-usrbin-outgoing; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 22:35:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id WAA17873; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 22:32:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 0.56 #1) id E0vexjm-0006vU-00; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 23:31:46 -0700 To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/vi Makefile Cc: CVS-committers@freefall.freebsd.org, peter@spinner.dialix.com, peter@freefall.freebsd.org, cvs-all@freefall.freebsd.org, cvs-usrbin@freefall.freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 30 Dec 1996 21:28:45 +0100." <199612302028.VAA13183@uriah.heep.sax.de> References: <199612302028.VAA13183@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 23:31:46 -0700 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-cvs-usrbin@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199612302028.VAA13183@uriah.heep.sax.de> J Wunsch writes: : Couldn't we find a ``golden way'' to only commit the basic parts to : the base tree, while leaving all the more obscure modules in : portsland? Good luck. Much of the "bloat" that is in Perl5 is needed by many of the newer Perl5 only programs. If you can do it, more power to you, but I fear that you may be sweeping the tide out on this one. :-( Warner From owner-cvs-usrbin Tue Dec 31 02:42:10 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id CAA23815 for cvs-usrbin-outgoing; Tue, 31 Dec 1996 02:42:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from sovcom.kiae.su (sovcom.kiae.su [193.125.152.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id CAA23810; Tue, 31 Dec 1996 02:42:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by sovcom.kiae.su id AA06801 (5.65.kiae-1 ); Tue, 31 Dec 1996 13:05:50 +0300 Received: by sovcom.KIAE.su (UUMAIL/2.0); Tue, 31 Dec 96 13:05:50 +0300 Received: from localhost (nagual.ru [127.0.0.1]) by nagual.ru (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA00549; Tue, 31 Dec 1996 12:56:07 +0300 (MSK) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 12:56:07 +0300 (MSK) From: =?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7=2C_Andrey_Chernov?= To: Joerg Wunsch Cc: CVS-committers@freefall.freebsd.org, cvs-all@freefall.freebsd.org, cvs-usrbin@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/colldef/data de_DE.ISO_8859-1.src es_ES.ISO_8859-1.src Makefile In-Reply-To: <199612302306.AAA18790@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-cvs-usrbin@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 31 Dec 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > As Andrey A. Chernov wrote: > > > Modified: usr.bin/colldef/data Makefile > > Added: usr.bin/colldef/data de_DE.ISO_8859-1.src > > es_ES.ISO_8859-1.src > > Log: > > Add de and es collates > > Submitted by: joerg > > Ooops, wouldn't you better pipe the `es' changes through a Spanish > native speaker first? It's just been my dictionary-based knowledge > what i've presented to you... I think they will complaints if something is wrong. Any variant is better then no variant at all. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://www.nagual.ru/~ache/ From owner-cvs-usrbin Tue Dec 31 10:57:31 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA13986 for cvs-usrbin-outgoing; Tue, 31 Dec 1996 10:57:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adam@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA13979; Tue, 31 Dec 1996 10:57:29 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 10:57:29 -0800 (PST) From: Adam David Message-Id: <199612311857.KAA13979@freefall.freebsd.org> To: CVS-committers, cvs-all, cvs-usrbin Subject: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/colldef/data is_IS.ISO_8859-1.src Makefile Sender: owner-cvs-usrbin@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk adam 96/12/31 10:57:28 Modified: usr.bin/colldef/data Makefile Added: usr.bin/colldef/data is_IS.ISO_8859-1.src Log: icelandic collation (non-icelandic characters in latin1 order) Revision Changes Path 1.5 +4 -3 src/usr.bin/colldef/data/Makefile From owner-cvs-usrbin Tue Dec 31 20:22:40 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id UAA12428 for cvs-usrbin-outgoing; Tue, 31 Dec 1996 20:22:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bde@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id UAA12405; Tue, 31 Dec 1996 20:22:29 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 20:22:29 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199701010422.UAA12405@freefall.freebsd.org> To: CVS-committers, cvs-all, cvs-games, cvs-share, cvs-usrbin, cvs-gnu, cvs-usrsbin Subject: cvs commit: src/games/phantasia Makefile src/gnu/usr.bin/bison/data Makefile src/gnu/usr.bin/cvs/contrib Makefile src/gnu/usr.bin/groff/tmac Makefile src/share/tabset Makefile src/usr.bin/vi Makefile src/usr.sbin/named.reload Makefile src/usr.sbin/named.restart Makefile src/usr.sbin/pcvt/fonts Makefile src/usr.sbin/stallion/bootcode Makefile src/gnu/usr.bin/cvs/cvsbug Makefile src/gnu/usr.bin/groff/eqn Makefile src/gnu/usr.bin/send-pr Makefile src/share/syscons/scrnmaps Makefile src/usr.bin/vgrind Makefile src/usr.sbin/ndc Makefile Sender: owner-cvs-usrbin@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk bde 96/12/31 20:22:28 Modified: games/phantasia Makefile gnu/usr.bin/bison/data Makefile gnu/usr.bin/cvs/contrib Makefile gnu/usr.bin/cvs/cvsbug Makefile gnu/usr.bin/groff/eqn Makefile gnu/usr.bin/groff/tmac Makefile gnu/usr.bin/send-pr Makefile share/syscons/scrnmaps Makefile share/tabset Makefile usr.bin/vgrind Makefile usr.bin/vi Makefile usr.sbin/named.reload Makefile usr.sbin/named.restart Makefile usr.sbin/ndc Makefile usr.sbin/pcvt/fonts Makefile usr.sbin/stallion/bootcode Makefile Log: Use ${COPY} instead of -c for installing non-source files. Revision Changes Path 1.10 +8 -8 src/games/phantasia/Makefile 1.3 +2 -2 src/gnu/usr.bin/bison/data/Makefile 1.7 +2 -2 src/gnu/usr.bin/cvs/contrib/Makefile 1.5 +2 -2 src/gnu/usr.bin/cvs/cvsbug/Makefile 1.7 +1 -1 src/gnu/usr.bin/groff/eqn/Makefile 1.13 +3 -3 src/gnu/usr.bin/groff/tmac/Makefile 1.13 +1 -1 src/gnu/usr.bin/send-pr/Makefile 1.7 +1 -1 src/share/syscons/scrnmaps/Makefile 1.7 +1 -1 src/share/tabset/Makefile 1.5 +1 -1 src/usr.bin/vgrind/Makefile 1.12 +2 -2 src/usr.bin/vi/Makefile 1.2 +3 -3 src/usr.sbin/named.reload/Makefile 1.2 +3 -3 src/usr.sbin/named.restart/Makefile 1.2 +2 -2 src/usr.sbin/ndc/Makefile 1.5 +1 -2 src/usr.sbin/pcvt/fonts/Makefile 1.3 +2 -3 src/usr.sbin/stallion/bootcode/Makefile From owner-cvs-usrbin Tue Dec 31 20:27:49 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id UAA12569 for cvs-usrbin-outgoing; Tue, 31 Dec 1996 20:27:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adam@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id UAA12562; Tue, 31 Dec 1996 20:27:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 20:27:48 -0800 (PST) From: Adam David Message-Id: <199701010427.UAA12562@freefall.freebsd.org> To: CVS-committers, cvs-all, cvs-usrbin Subject: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/colldef/data is_IS.ISO_8859-1.src Sender: owner-cvs-usrbin@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk adam 96/12/31 20:27:48 Modified: usr.bin/colldef/data is_IS.ISO_8859-1.src Log: fix braino on my part Revision Changes Path 1.2 +2 -2 src/usr.bin/colldef/data/is_IS.ISO_8859-1.src