From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 19 06:27:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA24464 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 May 1996 06:27:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gateway.ormond.unimelb.edu.au (College.ormond.unimelb.edu.au [203.17.189.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA24447 for ; Sun, 19 May 1996 06:27:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from gavin@localhost) by gateway.ormond.unimelb.edu.au (8.6.11/8.6.9) id XAA08063 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org; Sun, 19 May 1996 23:27:00 +1000 From: Gavin Cameron Message-Id: <199605191327.XAA08063@gateway.ormond.unimelb.edu.au> Subject: 'making' a router using a PC and FreeBSD To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 23:26:59 +1000 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I'd just like to get other peoples opinions on using a PC running FreeBSD as a router versus a dedicated router. I'm going to need a router with 7 interfaces, which will all fit in a standard PC. The interfaces will all be 10Mbit, a mixture of UTP and fibre. It would be nice if the same machine could support 100Mbit in the future. I was thinking about the following PC configuration to solve my problem: Pentium (what speed will I need?) 32MB ram (open to suggestions here) 4 PCI ethernet cards 3 ISA ethernet cards ISA Video card 1 gig disk I know you can get multiple ethernet ports on some cards these days, do people recommeend these? if so which ones? I'll be sticking to 2.1.0 on this machine as I will need high reliability. Once 2.2 is released I'll be running that on this machine. I'll have one 10Mbit feed to the net, will a PC be able to sustain 10MBit throughput? I'll be doing IP firewalling and accounting on this machine, as well as running a DHCP server, apart from that it'll be shuffling packets. I look forward to your thoughts. Thanks very much, Gavin gavin@ormond.unimelb.edu.au From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 19 14:22:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA23993 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 May 1996 14:22:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from io.org (io.org [198.133.36.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA23984 for ; Sun, 19 May 1996 14:22:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zap.io.org (taob@zap.io.org [198.133.36.81]) by io.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA24814 for ; Sun, 19 May 1996 17:22:40 -0400 Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 17:22:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Tao To: FREEBSD-CHAT-L Subject: Parallel fscking Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I had a couple of kernel panics recently on the news server, and although that in itself is not good, I am somewhat happy to report that reboot times have gone from 10 minutes to less than 5 minutes. :) -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org, taob@ican.net) Systems and Network Administrator, Internet Canada Corp. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 19 21:18:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id VAA23105 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 May 1996 21:18:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (root@sasami.jurai.net [206.151.208.162]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA23097 for ; Sun, 19 May 1996 21:17:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA16335; Sun, 19 May 1996 23:17:51 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 23:17:51 -0500 (CDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" X-Sender: winter@sasami To: Gavin Cameron cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: 'making' a router using a PC and FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199605191327.XAA08063@gateway.ormond.unimelb.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 19 May 1996, Gavin Cameron wrote: > I'm going to need a router with 7 interfaces, which will all fit in a > standard PC. The interfaces will all be 10Mbit, a mixture of UTP and > fibre. It would be nice if the same machine could support 100Mbit in the > future. I've got a FreeBSD 2.1-Stable box with 8 ethernet interfaces (and 10 serial ports, but thats for serial device management.) thats doing that right now. (core1.intersurf.com) > I was thinking about the following PC configuration to solve my problem: > Pentium (what speed will I need?) > 32MB ram (open to suggestions here) > 4 PCI ethernet cards > 3 ISA ethernet cards > ISA Video card > 1 gig disk I'm using an Asus P55TP4N with a P120 and 32 megs of ram, a 2 gig Quantum Saturn, and 2 ZNYX 314 quad ethernet cards. Its been in production for about a week, and we just renumbered all of our production machines yesterday night so it has only been under real load for about 24 hours right now. I'm only using 5 ethernet ports right now, but plan on using more in the coming month. > I know you can get multiple ethernet ports on some cards these days, do > people recommeend these? if so which ones? I'll be sticking to 2.1.0 on > this machine as I will need high reliability. Once 2.2 is released I'll > be running that on this machine. The ZNYX 314s are nice cards. They are a bit longer than I would like and I can only fit two of them on a TP4N due to the CPU+Fan. I think the 312 would work well too (2 port) or the SMC Etherpower^2s. > I'll have one 10Mbit feed to the net, will a PC be able to sustain 10MBit > throughput? Well, I don't expect to be able to have all 8 ports going full bore routing across that box, and I messed around using ping (-f -s 1500) and I was able to induce packet loss across it. At this point, our bottlekneck is the Internet connection and if that changes, I'm probably going to be getting an etherswitch and a bigger cisco. I'm really just splitting traffic up, and could have used a bridge instead of a router, but I'll be able to use ipfw and filter some traffic with this solution. > I'll be doing IP firewalling and accounting on this machine, as well as > running a DHCP server, apart from that it'll be shuffling packets. I'm running our primary DNS on this box (if this box is down, then resolving names isn't going to do anyone any good.) and will probably have a Postgres95 database to do traffic statistic collection. > I look forward to your thoughts. It seems to work well, but I'm a little nervous about my box. If it goes down then the whole internal network is well and truely fucked. It will be interesting to see if it will cope with heavy traffic. *evil grin* Have a good one. | Matthew N. Dodd | winter@jurai.net | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | | Technical Manager | mdodd@intersurf.net | http://www.intersurf.net | | InterSurf Online | "Welcome to the net Sir, would you like a handbasket?"| From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 20 06:50:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA19392 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 20 May 1996 06:50:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.hsc.wvu.edu (www.hsc.wvu.edu [157.182.98.68]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA19378 for ; Mon, 20 May 1996 06:50:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jsigmon@localhost) by www.hsc.wvu.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA09334; Mon, 20 May 1996 09:51:42 -0400 Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 09:51:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeremy Sigmon To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: FreeBSD mounting a NFS drive on a Novell server Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Is it possible to mount a drive or directory on a Novell server with FreeBSD? {Possible solution to low disk space... ;-( } ====================================================================== Jeremy Sigmon B.S. ChE | Webmaster of the Robert C. Byrd Health | Sciences Center of West Virginia University | This Space For Rent WWW.HSC.WVU.EDU | Graduate Student in Computer Science | Office : 293-1060 | ====================================================================== From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 20 09:19:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA28124 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 20 May 1996 09:19:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA28117 for ; Mon, 20 May 1996 09:19:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id LAA19554; Mon, 20 May 1996 11:15:32 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199605201615.LAA19554@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: 3 terabytes on one server? (was Re: more than 32 scsi disks on a single machine ?) To: bob@luke.pmr.com (Bob Willcox) Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 11:15:31 -0500 (CDT) Cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, kelly@fsl.noaa.gov, taob@io.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, asami@cs.berkeley.edu In-Reply-To: <199605161938.OAA10398@luke.pmr.com> from "Bob Willcox" at May 16, 96 02:38:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Now admittedly FreeBSD's fsck is a lot faster :-), but if this really is a > > limitation, it is too bad.. maybe I will go look at it :-) > > I believe you don't understand the way FreeBSD actually handles > this. (Heck, maybe I don't either, but this is what I actually > observe happenning.) Hi, You missed the subtle point, that behaviour is all well and fine, but some of us are smarter than fsck and would like to specify the passes explicitly. I certainly agree that fsck checks filesystems in parallel, it just isn't guaranteed to do it "optimally". Consider the case: you have two non-root disks both with multiple partitions. (hypothetical) sd1e 40MB lots of files sd1f 200MB a few big files sd2e 200MB a few big files sd2f 200MB lots of files I don't know what FreeBSD's behaviour would be. Hopefully it would not try to fsck multiple fs's on the same disk concurrently, but maybe it would! However, an intelligent admin might set up sd1f pass 2 sd2e pass 2 sd1e pass 3 sd2f pass 3 to minimize the amount of time "wasted" waiting. This still isn't totally optimal. The best way to do it might be to fork off a per-disk process and have it sequentially iterate (asynchronously from any other "passes" on other disks) through filesystems on that one disk. Or maybe that's what it already does? :-) ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/546-7968 From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 20 09:56:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA00186 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 20 May 1996 09:56:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from luke.pmr.com (luke.pmr.com [206.224.65.132]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA00179 for ; Mon, 20 May 1996 09:56:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bob@localhost) by luke.pmr.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) id LAA14432; Mon, 20 May 1996 11:46:48 -0500 (CDT) From: Bob Willcox Message-Id: <199605201646.LAA14432@luke.pmr.com> Subject: Re: 3 terabytes on one server? (was Re: more than 32 scsi disks on a single machine ?) To: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com (Joe Greco) Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 11:46:48 -0500 (CDT) Cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, kelly@fsl.noaa.gov, taob@io.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, asami@cs.berkeley.edu In-Reply-To: <199605201615.LAA19554@brasil.moneng.mei.com> from Joe Greco at "May 20, 96 11:15:31 am" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL11 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joe Greco wrote: > > > Now admittedly FreeBSD's fsck is a lot faster :-), but if this really is a > > > limitation, it is too bad.. maybe I will go look at it :-) > > > > I believe you don't understand the way FreeBSD actually handles > > this. (Heck, maybe I don't either, but this is what I actually > > observe happenning.) > > Hi, > > You missed the subtle point, that behaviour is all well and fine, but some > of us are smarter than fsck and would like to specify the passes explicitly. True, but I like not having to think about this. I believe the current behavior of fsck makes that possible. > > I certainly agree that fsck checks filesystems in parallel, it just isn't > guaranteed to do it "optimally". I don't really know what optimum would be here. I do feel that a per-disk process that sequentially fsck's all of the file systems on its disk (and runs in parallel with the other per-disk processes fsck'ing their disk's file systems) is pretty close to optimum. > > Consider the case: you have two non-root disks both with multiple > partitions. (hypothetical) > > sd1e 40MB lots of files > sd1f 200MB a few big files > sd2e 200MB a few big files > sd2f 200MB lots of files > > I don't know what FreeBSD's behaviour would be. Hopefully it would not try > to fsck multiple fs's on the same disk concurrently, but maybe it would! If all of these disks pass number were set to 2, there would be two processes running fsck (for these four filesystems), one process would fsck sd1e followed by sd1f. The other process would fsck sd2e followed by sd2f. > > However, an intelligent admin might set up > > sd1f pass 2 > sd2e pass 2 > sd1e pass 3 > sd2f pass 3 > > to minimize the amount of time "wasted" waiting. I believe you are interpreting the word "pass" (for FreeBSD anyway) too literally. My interpretation is that filesystems specified as pass 1 are fsck'd sequentially first, followed by pass 2 filesystems fsck'd in parallel. As pointed out above, these pass 2 fsck's are done in what I believe to be a pretty optimum way. > > This still isn't totally optimal. The best way to do it might be to fork > off a per-disk process and have it sequentially iterate (asynchronously from > any other "passes" on other disks) through filesystems on that one disk. > > Or maybe that's what it already does? :-) I believe that that is *precisely* what it does, unless I misunderstand what you are suggesting. Certainly that's how I have seen it described (was years ago that I actually saw the description, and I don't remember where :-() and the exact behavior that I observe on MY system. -- Bob Willcox bob@luke.pmr.com Austin, TX From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 20 14:18:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA17921 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 20 May 1996 14:18:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA17887 for ; Mon, 20 May 1996 14:18:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id XAA14655; Mon, 20 May 1996 23:17:11 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA09366; Mon, 20 May 1996 23:17:11 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA06294; Mon, 20 May 1996 22:34:24 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199605202034.WAA06294@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: FreeBSD mounting a NFS drive on a Novell server To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 22:34:23 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: jsigmon@www.hsc.wvu.edu (Jeremy Sigmon) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from Jeremy Sigmon at "May 20, 96 09:51:41 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jeremy Sigmon wrote: > > Is it possible to mount a drive or directory on a Novell server > with FreeBSD? Only if your Novell server has the ($$$) NFS module. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 20 15:26:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA23925 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 20 May 1996 15:26:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.hsc.wvu.edu (www.hsc.wvu.edu [157.182.98.68]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA23909 for ; Mon, 20 May 1996 15:26:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jsigmon@localhost) by www.hsc.wvu.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA16478; Mon, 20 May 1996 18:27:24 -0400 Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 18:27:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeremy Sigmon To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: New drive question Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk My organization is planning on getting another drive for the FreeBSD machine. I was wondering if I can mount it as an extention of /usr? How about part as /usr and part as /usr01? If so what utility would I run to do it? thanks ====================================================================== Jeremy Sigmon B.S. ChE | Webmaster of the Robert C. Byrd Health | Sciences Center of West Virginia University | This Space For Rent WWW.HSC.WVU.EDU | Graduate Student in Computer Science | Office : 293-1060 | ====================================================================== From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 20 23:03:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA00180 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 20 May 1996 23:03:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA00175 for ; Mon, 20 May 1996 23:03:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id IAA29234; Tue, 21 May 1996 08:01:25 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id IAA15058; Tue, 21 May 1996 08:01:25 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id HAA08983; Tue, 21 May 1996 07:47:15 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199605210547.HAA08983@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: New drive question To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 07:47:15 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: jsigmon@www.hsc.wvu.edu (Jeremy Sigmon) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from Jeremy Sigmon at "May 20, 96 06:27:24 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jeremy Sigmon wrote: > > My organization is planning on getting another drive for the FreeBSD > machine. I was wondering if I can mount it as an extention of > /usr? How about part as /usr and part as /usr01? > If so what utility would I run to do it? You've got a couple of options. You can mount it into a large subdirectory of /usr, e.g. /usr/src. Or, you can mount it somewhere else, move some stuff out of /usr onto it, and keep legacy symlinks in /usr pointing to the new location. For -current or -stable systems, you can of course also be adventurous and use the ccd driver to concatenate both disks into a single /usr file system. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 20 23:22:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA01079 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 20 May 1996 23:22:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA01069 for ; Mon, 20 May 1996 23:21:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id IAA29747; Tue, 21 May 1996 08:21:19 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id IAA15186; Tue, 21 May 1996 08:21:18 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA09246; Tue, 21 May 1996 08:19:16 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199605210619.IAA09246@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: /stand/ee To: jfieber@indiana.edu (John Fieber) Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 08:19:16 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk, andreas@knobel.gun.de, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from John Fieber at "May 20, 96 10:27:09 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (Moved to -chat) As John Fieber wrote: I fully agree with John's points stated (``the one true editor'' vs. a useful editor for small maintenance tasks). > I'm not one to bring change for the sake of change, and at this > point I wouldn't dream of proposing to remove vi from the core > distribution. However, it is equally shortsighted to keep > tradition for sake of tradition. Vi has stubbornly ignored all ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > that the last 15 or so years of human computer interaction ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > research has discovered, and the population of users who have no ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > desire to invest the time to learn a cranky old editor is only > going to rise. It even did this by time of its own creation. :) Quoting Peter H. Salus' ``A Quarter Century of Unix'', pp. 139 ff., typos are mine: [...] They took an editor call *em* that had been developed by Coulouris at Queen Mary College, London, and developed the line-at-a-time editor ex. Coulouris had been the first recipient of Unix (Version 4) in the UK, in late 1973. He told me: I developed *em* at QMC in the autumn of 1975, to enable us to exploit more effectively some vdu terminals that we had recently acquired. [...] Seeing *em* was probably what alerted Bill Joy and the BSD people to the possibility of a screen editor for Unix. If I hadn't developed *em* and visited Berkeley with it, early versions of BSD Unix probably wouldn't have contained a screen editor. This can be chalked up as a small example of a reverse flow of ideas across the Atlantic in the Unix story. Unfortunately, *vi* didn't pick up some of the human interface principles that were embedded in *em*. At QMC we had already concluded that modal interaction was a bad idea, and I had gone to some lengths to ensure that the interaction in *em* didn't involve more than one meaning for any key. This principle was badly violated in *vi* with its insert and edit modes. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 02:33:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA12056 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 May 1996 02:33:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epprod.elsevier.co.uk (epprod.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA12051 for ; Tue, 21 May 1996 02:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk (snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]) by epprod.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA11662 for ; Tue, 21 May 1996 10:31:42 +0100 Received: from cadair.elsevier.co.uk (actually host cadair) by snowdon with SMTP (PP); Tue, 21 May 1996 10:31:38 +0100 Received: (from dpr@localhost) by cadair.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA03061; Tue, 21 May 1996 10:31:03 +0100 From: Paul Richards Message-Id: <199605210931.KAA03061@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> Subject: Re: /stand/ee To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 10:31:02 +0100 (BST) Cc: jfieber@indiana.edu, andreas@knobel.gun.de, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605210619.IAA09246@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at May 21, 96 08:19:16 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to J Wunsch who said > > (Moved to -chat) I was going to let it drop but sicne it's moved to chat :-) > Unfortunately, *vi* didn't pick up some of the human interface > principles that were embedded in *em*. At QMC we had already > concluded that modal interaction was a bad idea, and I had gone to > some lengths to ensure that the interaction in *em* didn't involve > more than one meaning for any key. This principle was badly > violated in *vi* with its insert and edit modes. Well, you either love or hate vi. Personally I've come to quite like it since I can get things done a lot quicker in vi than anything else because it has a rich set of movement commands. That's neither here nor there though. "Traditional" unix users know vi to some extent and expect it to the default unix editor unless they change it themselves, which a lot of them do. I guess the obvious thing to do is provide an installation option that sets the default setting of EDITOR. New users will probably just pick the default and use ee but if the option is presented at this time then at least those experienced unix hackers can get things set up as normal. I don't see much point in bringing pico into the base system, if people choose it as the default editor then sysinstall can unpack it and install it as a port. I'm not a die-hard traditionalist, if the unix community could be moved away from vi to something more user-friendly then great but it still a simple fact that at the moment it's a requirement to know *some* vi to be able to work in the Unix world. If all you're ever going to do is play with FreeBSD at home then I guess ee will be enough for you but we should be cautious in changing FreeBSD too much in favour of non-unix users. -- Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor) Elsevier Science TIS online journal project. Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155 From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 03:52:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id DAA16530 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 May 1996 03:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from solidsys ([198.65.175.119]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA16525 for ; Tue, 21 May 1996 03:52:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from camj (dial11.phoenix.net [205.241.121.25]) by solidsys (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA20788; Tue, 21 May 1996 05:42:34 GMT Message-ID: <31A1A07F.41C67EA6@solidsys.com> Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 05:52:47 -0500 From: Cam Johnson Organization: SS NetCon X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b3 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joerg Wunsch CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, Jeremy Sigmon Subject: Re: FreeBSD mounting a NFS drive on a Novell server References: <199605202034.WAA06294@uriah.heep.sax.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch wrote: > > As Jeremy Sigmon wrote: > > > > Is it possible to mount a drive or directory on a Novell server > > with FreeBSD? > > Only if your Novell server has the ($$$) NFS module. > > -- > cheers, J"org > > joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE > Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) Or FreeBSD has NetCon ($$$). See http://www.freebsd.org/commercial.html Cam Johnson SS NetCon From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 10:46:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA13204 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 May 1996 10:46:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hda (ip80-max1-fitch.zipnet.net [199.232.245.80]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA13198 for ; Tue, 21 May 1996 10:46:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA19975 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 21 May 1996 13:57:20 -0400 From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199605211757.NAA19975@hda> Subject: NC label for FreeBSD To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 13:57:19 -0400 (EDT) Reply-to: hdalog@zipnet.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I notice in this mornings WSJ that a consortium of Everbody But Microsoft (OK, I don't have the paper here; IBM, Apple, Oracle, etc) has put together the specs for the Network Computer, including what you need to wear the Network Computer logo. That non-technical article makes it sound as if the definition is pretty loose and means you adhere to internet protocols. Sounds like we may already qualify. Sounds like a press release to me: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: FREEBSD NOW SPORTS THE NETWORK COMPUTER LOGO... -- Peter Dufault Real-Time Machine Control and Simulation HD Associates, Inc. Voice: 508 433 6936 dufault@hda.com Fax: 508 433 5267 From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 13:38:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA27590 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 May 1996 13:38:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA27576 for ; Tue, 21 May 1996 13:38:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA02792; Tue, 21 May 1996 13:38:26 -0700 (PDT) To: hdalog@zipnet.net cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NC label for FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 21 May 1996 13:57:19 EDT." <199605211757.NAA19975@hda> Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 13:38:26 -0700 Message-ID: <2790.832711106@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Sounds like a press release to me: > > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: > > FREEBSD NOW SPORTS THE NETWORK COMPUTER LOGO... Heh, that's interesting. I'll look into this. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 15:53:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA07302 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 May 1996 15:53:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA07296 for ; Tue, 21 May 1996 15:53:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id AAA08300; Wed, 22 May 1996 00:53:36 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA08954; Wed, 22 May 1996 00:53:29 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA10881; Wed, 22 May 1996 00:51:27 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199605212251.AAA10881@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: /stand/ee To: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk (Paul Richards) Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 00:51:27 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, jfieber@indiana.edu, andreas@knobel.gun.de, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199605210931.KAA03061@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> from Paul Richards at "May 21, 96 10:31:02 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Paul Richards wrote: > Well, you either love or hate vi. Personally I've come to quite like it > since I can get things done a lot quicker in vi than anything else because > it has a rich set of movement commands. Well, i don't exactly hate it, though i prefer Emacs for most things. ;) > I guess the obvious thing to do is provide an installation option that > sets the default setting of EDITOR. Well, now _that_ makes an interesting idea! Jordan, are you here? -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 15:54:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA07371 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 May 1996 15:54:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA07360 for ; Tue, 21 May 1996 15:54:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id AAA08282; Wed, 22 May 1996 00:53:18 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA08944; Wed, 22 May 1996 00:53:17 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA10845; Wed, 22 May 1996 00:48:41 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199605212248.AAA10845@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: FreeBSD mounting a NFS drive on a Novell server To: cam@solidsys.com (Cam Johnson) Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 00:48:41 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, jsigmon@www.hsc.wvu.edu Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <31A1A07F.41C67EA6@solidsys.com> from Cam Johnson at "May 21, 96 05:52:47 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Cam Johnson wrote: > > Only if your Novell server has the ($$$) NFS module. > Or FreeBSD has NetCon ($$$). See http://www.freebsd.org/commercial.html Interesting. I think "$$" only. ;-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 16:04:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA08238 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 May 1996 16:04:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA08223; Tue, 21 May 1996 16:04:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA03110; Tue, 21 May 1996 18:04:19 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 18:04:19 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Joerg Wunsch , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: /stand/ee In-Reply-To: <199605212251.AAA10881@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 22 May 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > As Paul Richards wrote: > > > Well, you either love or hate vi. Personally I've come to quite like it > > since I can get things done a lot quicker in vi than anything else because > > it has a rich set of movement commands. > > Well, i don't exactly hate it, though i prefer Emacs for most > things. ;) > > > I guess the obvious thing to do is provide an installation option that > > sets the default setting of EDITOR. > > Well, now _that_ makes an interesting idea! Jordan, are you here? Well, one way to make sure is put him in the To: line... -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 16:17:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA10336 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 May 1996 16:17:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from antares.aero.org (antares.aero.org [130.221.192.46]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA10331 for ; Tue, 21 May 1996 16:16:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anpiel.aero.org (anpiel.aero.org [130.221.196.66]) by antares.aero.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA04550; Tue, 21 May 1996 16:16:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605212316.QAA04550@antares.aero.org> To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) Cc: jfieber@indiana.edu (John Fieber), p.richards@elsevier.co.uk, andreas@knobel.gun.de, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: /stand/ee In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 20 May 1996 23:19:16 PDT." <199605210619.IAA09246@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 16:16:03 -0700 From: "Mike O'Brien" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk George Coulouris is quoted as saying Unfortunately, *vi* didn't pick up some of the human interface principles that were embedded in *em*. As far as I know the first full-screen editor for UNIX was the Rand editor. I still use it. I have tried to port it to FreeBSD but there is something very broken somewhere. It seems to run fine on the console windows but there is something busted under X. It seems to have the number of lines in the window all wrong somehow. It runs fine under X on Suns, and a friend of mine who still works at Rand (and is the editor's current maintainer) has ported it to Linux. I'd rather get a "native" FreeBSD port going than just adopt the Linux port. Ah well. "vi" didn't take any user interface ideas from the Rand editor, nor did anybody else. That's why the Rand editor remains the only "white space" editor under UNIX. No more messing around with where a line ends. Put the cursor where you want, start typing, and the editor takes care of the rest. Conceptually, the Rand editor is based on Ned Irons' work at Yale. Mike O'Brien From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 16:50:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA13682 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 May 1996 16:50:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA13671; Tue, 21 May 1996 16:50:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA03644; Tue, 21 May 1996 16:50:10 -0700 (PDT) To: John Fieber cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Joerg Wunsch , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: /stand/ee In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 21 May 1996 18:04:19 CDT." Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 16:50:10 -0700 Message-ID: <3642.832722610@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > I guess the obvious thing to do is provide an installation option that > > > sets the default setting of EDITOR. > > > > Well, now _that_ makes an interesting idea! Jordan, are you here? > > Well, one way to make sure is put him in the To: line... You want me to change the default shell startup files based on $EDITOR? Hmmmmm. I'll contemplate this. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 22:27:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA17117 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 May 1996 22:27:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from io.org (io.org [198.133.36.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA17111 for ; Tue, 21 May 1996 22:27:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zap.io.org (taob@zap.io.org [198.133.36.81]) by io.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA21831 for ; Wed, 22 May 1996 01:27:20 -0400 Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 01:26:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Tao To: FREEBSD-CHAT-L Subject: SF/Bay Area/SJ events May 25 to June 1? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk A friend and I are going to be staying in San Jose while on holidays for a week, starting May 25. Are there any UNIX/BSD user group meetings or BoF's planned during that week? Yeah, I know, what a way to geek out on a vacation. :) I figure we can take some time to visit Walnut Creek and hunt down Jordan or something and have a photo taken with him. :) -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org, taob@ican.net) Systems and Network Administrator, Internet Canada Corp. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 22:31:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA17430 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 May 1996 22:31:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from io.org (io.org [198.133.36.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA17417 for ; Tue, 21 May 1996 22:31:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zap.io.org (taob@zap.io.org [198.133.36.81]) by io.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA22269; Wed, 22 May 1996 01:31:30 -0400 Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 01:30:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Tao To: hdalog@zipnet.net cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NC label for FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199605211757.NAA19975@hda> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 21 May 1996, Peter Dufault wrote: > > That non-technical article makes it sound as if the definition is > pretty loose and means you adhere to internet protocols. Sounds like > we may already qualify. The details are at http://www.nc.ihost.com/. I don't think we support DHCP yet (do we?) for remote booting, but bootp is mentioned. Also, the "Java Application Environment" is listed as a requirement. There's no info yet on the cost or process of "NC Friendly" certification. Apple's Web site has a summary of the reference profile: ELEMENTS OF THE PROFILE The NC Reference Profile 1 covers general hardware guidelines, Internet protocols, World Wide Web standards, e-mail protocols, common multimedia formats, boot protocols and security features. The hardware guidelines cover a minimum screen resolution of 640 x 480 (VGA) or equivalent, a pointing device (mouse or track ball), text input capabilities and audio output. The agreed upon Internet protocols are Transmission Control Protocol (TCP), File Transfer Protocol (FTP), optional support of NFS to enable low-cost, medialess devices while allowing for persistent storage in the network and SMTP, a protocol enabling the distributed management of devices. The profile further adheres to World Wide Web standards HTML, HTTP and the Java Application Environment, as well as to mainstream mail protocols (SMTP, IMAP4, POP3) and common data formats such as JPEG, GIF, WAV and AU. Optional security features are supported through emerging security APIs; security standards are ISO 7816 SmartCards and the EMV (Europay/MasterCard/Visa) specification. NC Reference Profile 1 will be made available for public comment and review in July 1996 and is expected to be finalized by August 1996. The draft published today can be viewed on the World Wide Web at http://www.nc.ihost.com. Future versions of the NC Reference Profile (e.g., Profile 2, Profile 3, etc.) will be determined and published by the participants in this announcement with the involvement of other interested parties in response to changing technologies and market requirements. In the third quarter of 1996, Apple, IBM, Netscape, Oracle and Sun plan to organize a joint Web site with tests for profile compliance. Manufacturers whose designs successfully meet the criteria of the profile will be authorized to promote their devices as "NC Profile compliant" and to use the NC logo in connection with the manufacturing, marketing and sales of NC products and product families. -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org, taob@ican.net) Systems and Network Administrator, Internet Canada Corp. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 21 23:59:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA22947 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 May 1996 23:59:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA22942 for ; Tue, 21 May 1996 23:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA01953; Tue, 21 May 1996 23:59:39 -0700 Message-Id: <199605220659.XAA01953@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Brian Tao cc: FREEBSD-CHAT-L Subject: Re: SF/Bay Area/SJ events May 25 to June 1? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 22 May 1996 01:26:38 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 23:59:38 -0700 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > A friend and I are going to be staying in San Jose while on > holidays for a week, starting May 25. Are there any UNIX/BSD user > group meetings or BoF's planned during that week? Yeah, I know, what > a way to geek out on a vacation. :) I figure we can take some time > to visit Walnut Creek and hunt down Jordan or something and have a > photo taken with him. :) Maybe we can broadcast the event on FreeBSD Lounge right out of my aparment 8) Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 01:54:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA00882 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 May 1996 01:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA00840; Wed, 22 May 1996 01:53:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id KAA23080; Wed, 22 May 1996 10:51:12 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA14512; Wed, 22 May 1996 10:51:12 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id KAA13066; Wed, 22 May 1996 10:44:01 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199605220844.KAA13066@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: /stand/ee To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 10:44:00 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: jfieber@indiana.edu, jkh@freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <3642.832722610@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "May 21, 96 04:50:10 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > I guess the obvious thing to do is provide an installation option that > > > > sets the default setting of EDITOR. > You want me to change the default shell startup files based on $EDITOR? No, but to have sysinstall asking for $EDITOR (and append this to /etc/profile and /etc/csh.login then). -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 02:17:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA03917 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 May 1996 02:17:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA03903 for ; Wed, 22 May 1996 02:17:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA05282; Wed, 22 May 1996 02:17:34 -0700 (PDT) To: Brian Tao cc: FREEBSD-CHAT-L Subject: Re: SF/Bay Area/SJ events May 25 to June 1? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 22 May 1996 01:26:38 EDT." Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 02:17:34 -0700 Message-ID: <5279.832756654@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Poul-Henning is also out here in Peasant Hell, CA. which is right next to Concord. Why don't we all "do lunch?" Or even better, dinner. :-) Jordan > A friend and I are going to be staying in San Jose while on > holidays for a week, starting May 25. Are there any UNIX/BSD user > group meetings or BoF's planned during that week? Yeah, I know, what > a way to geek out on a vacation. :) I figure we can take some time > to visit Walnut Creek and hunt down Jordan or something and have a > photo taken with him. :) > -- > Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org, taob@ican.net) > Systems and Network Administrator, Internet Canada Corp. > "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" > From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 02:42:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA07450 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 May 1996 02:42:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epprod.elsevier.co.uk (epprod.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA07434 for ; Wed, 22 May 1996 02:42:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk (snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]) by epprod.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA10631 for ; Wed, 22 May 1996 10:40:52 +0100 Received: from tees by snowdon with SMTP (PP); Wed, 22 May 1996 10:40:50 +0100 Received: (from dpr@localhost) by tees (SMI-8.6/8.6.12) id KAA08108 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 22 May 1996 10:40:36 +0100 From: Paul Richards Message-Id: <199605220940.KAA08108@tees> Subject: Re: /stand/ee To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 10:40:35 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: from "Andreas Klemm" at May 22, 96 07:48:44 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Andreas Klemm who said > > On Wed, 22 May 1996, Pat Caldon wrote: > > > An appropriate list of editors would be: All the editors we have available in ports plus vi. An extra menu in the post installation setup with them all listed would do the job. -- Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor) Elsevier Science TIS online journal project. Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155 From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 03:16:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id DAA13133 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 May 1996 03:16:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA13119 for ; Wed, 22 May 1996 03:16:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Root.COM (8.7.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id DAA14849; Wed, 22 May 1996 03:16:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605221016.DAA14849@Root.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.Root.COM: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Brian Tao cc: FREEBSD-CHAT-L Subject: Re: SF/Bay Area/SJ events May 25 to June 1? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 22 May 1996 01:26:38 EDT." From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 03:16:47 -0700 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > A friend and I are going to be staying in San Jose while on >holidays for a week, starting May 25. Are there any UNIX/BSD user >group meetings or BoF's planned during that week? Yeah, I know, what >a way to geek out on a vacation. :) I figure we can take some time >to visit Walnut Creek and hunt down Jordan or something and have a >photo taken with him. :) Hmmm...I'm going to be in the SF area from 1pm until about 7:30pm on the 30th to do an upgrade of wcarchive. I was planning on an early dinner (5-6pm) with Jordan and Poul-Henning before leaving for the airport. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 06:18:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA25591 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 May 1996 06:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA25581; Wed, 22 May 1996 06:17:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA07084; Wed, 22 May 1996 08:17:58 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 08:17:57 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu To: www@freebsd.org cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Please respond to this Web server survey... In-Reply-To: <01BB473E.1E0662A0@spike.mcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="---- =_NextPart_000_01BB473E.1E0F8A60" Content-ID: Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB473E.1E0F8A60 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=iso-8859-1 Content-ID: I think Netscape may be getting a little edgy about the success of Apache... On Tue, 21 May 1996, Netscape Marketing Survey wrote: > We would like to better understand your use of servers. Please help us > by answering the questions below. Your input will help us build products > better suited to your needs. > 4. What percentage of the servers outside the firewall are running Apache? > 5. And what percentage of the servers inside the firewall are running Apache? > 6. On which platform or platforms are your Apache systems running? > 7. If Apache was an upgrade, what was that server running previously? > 8. Were you involved in the decision to use Apache servers? > 9. How did you first hear of Apache? > 10. Thinking about the reasons you decided to use Apache, please tell > us which of the following factors were the most important in your > decision to use Apache servers. > 11. Overall how satisfied are you with the Apache server(s)? > 13. Are you currently running any Netscape servers? > 18. If you had a choice, would you prefer to run Netscape or Apache on the > servers that are currently running Apache? -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB473E.1E0F8A60-- From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 08:55:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA05521 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 May 1996 08:55:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA05516 for ; Wed, 22 May 1996 08:55:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with SMTP id IAA26116 for ; Wed, 22 May 1996 08:55:28 -0700 Received: from crevenia.parc.xerox.com ([13.2.116.11]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <14628(6)>; Wed, 22 May 1996 08:53:25 PDT Received: from localhost by crevenia.parc.xerox.com with SMTP id <177475>; Wed, 22 May 1996 08:53:19 -0700 To: Brian Tao cc: FREEBSD-CHAT-L Subject: Re: SF/Bay Area/SJ events May 25 to June 1? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 21 May 96 22:26:38 PDT." Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 08:53:15 PDT From: Bill Fenner Message-Id: <96May22.085319pdt.177475@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message you write: >Are there any UNIX/BSD user group meetings or BoF's planned during that week? Not that I know of, but I'm having a big party on Monday that you're welcome to come to =) Bill From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 15:46:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA05325 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 May 1996 15:46:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from io.org (io.org [198.133.36.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA05318 for ; Wed, 22 May 1996 15:46:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zot.io.org (taob@zot.io.org [198.133.36.82]) by io.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA28846; Wed, 22 May 1996 18:46:27 -0400 Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 18:45:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Tao To: Bill Fenner cc: FREEBSD-CHAT-L Subject: Re: SF/Bay Area/SJ events May 25 to June 1? In-Reply-To: <96May22.085319pdt.177475@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 22 May 1996, Bill Fenner wrote: > > Not that I know of, but I'm having a big party on Monday that you're > welcome to come to =) Details, man, details!!! :) -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org, taob@ican.net) Systems and Network Administrator, Internet Canada Corp. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 18:22:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA21457 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 May 1996 18:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA21452 for ; Wed, 22 May 1996 18:22:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crevenia.parc.xerox.com ([13.2.116.11]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <15535(3)>; Wed, 22 May 1996 18:21:28 PDT Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by crevenia.parc.xerox.com with SMTP id <177475>; Wed, 22 May 1996 18:21:18 -0700 X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.4 10/10/95 To: Brian Tao cc: FREEBSD-CHAT-L Subject: Re: SF/Bay Area/SJ events May 25 to June 1? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 22 May 1996 15:45:26 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 18:21:06 PDT From: Bill Fenner Message-Id: <96May22.182118pdt.177475@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk * * * Memorial Day Party * * * In solomn honor of those who have died defending our country, we're gonna have a pool party! Monday, May 27, starting around 1 PM! You and your friends are invited! Bring bathing suits and towels! We'll have a keg, sodas, burgers and hot dogs, and maybe some other traditional bbq goodies. If you want to bbq anything else - bring it along! Feel free to bring other stuff as well!! Directions to 496 Valley View Dr in Los Altos: >From 280: take El Monte exit, east towards Mountain View/Los Altos drive until 2nd light, and turn right onto Summerhill left on Valley View drive (the second left after the stop sign) house is on right hand side of street. (look for our neighor's drive, 486 Valley View) >From 101: take Shoreline to El Camnio go straight, the road becomes Miramonte turn right at Cuesta turn left at Springer, cross Foothill after crossing Foothill turn right onto Summerhill right on Valley View drive house is on right hand side of street. (look for our neighor's drive, 486 Valley View) Parking: Please park on one of the side roads near our house; either Knoll Dr. to the right or Valley View Circle to the left. If we forgot to send this to anyone who you think should be invited, please forward it along! From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 22 18:36:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA23282 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 May 1996 18:36:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (pechter@shell.monmouth.com [205.164.220.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA23269 for ; Wed, 22 May 1996 18:36:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA10851; Wed, 22 May 1996 21:32:53 -0400 From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199605230132.VAA10851@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Re: Is Token Ring supported? To: plm@simplex.nl (Peter Mutsaers) Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 21:32:52 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <87ybmk8xt8.fsf@plm.simplex.nl> from "Peter Mutsaers" at May 22, 96 06:41:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > >> On Tue, 21 May 1996 17:42:19 -0700 you wrote: > > JM> We need to set up a DHCP server at work - but it needs to support > JM> token ring. > > JM> If FreeBSD doesn't support TR, I guess we'll be forced to use BSDi or > JM> even NT. > > Linux supports token ring (well; I've done some experiments with it > today). You can use that too. I'd love to see it for FreeBSD too. > That's why I'm running Linux at work and FreeBSD at home. I'd love to go all FreeBSD. Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Pechter/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive, Tinton Falls, NJ 07724, 908-389-3592 | pechter@shell.monmouth.com I'll run Win96 on my box when you pry the keyboard from my cold, dead hands. FreeBSD, OS/2, CP/M, RT11, spoken here. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 23 04:12:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id EAA02270 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 May 1996 04:12:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA02265 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 04:12:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id EAA03299; Thu, 23 May 1996 04:12:18 -0700 (PDT) To: Bill/Carolyn Pechter cc: plm@simplex.nl (Peter Mutsaers), freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is Token Ring supported? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 22 May 1996 21:32:52 EDT." <199605230132.VAA10851@shell.monmouth.com> Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 04:12:18 -0700 Message-ID: <3297.832849938@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Linux supports token ring (well; I've done some experiments with it > > today). You can use that too. I'd love to see it for FreeBSD too. We've been waiting a long time for some token ring person to do the driver. :-) The big problem is that token ring is so rare, even if you could find 10 individuals capable of writing a driver for a Madge or IBM token ring card you'll probably also find that none of them had any access to a token ring network. It's the people with motivated self-interest who are going to end up doing it or not at all. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 23 06:15:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA11131 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 May 1996 06:15:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epprod.elsevier.co.uk (epprod.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA11117 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 06:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk (snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]) by epprod.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA00896 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 14:13:46 +0100 Received: from cadair.elsevier.co.uk (actually host cadair) by snowdon with SMTP (PP); Thu, 23 May 1996 14:13:44 +0100 Received: (from dpr@localhost) by cadair.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA23966; Thu, 23 May 1996 14:13:18 +0100 From: Paul Richards Message-Id: <199605231313.OAA23966@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> Subject: Re: editors To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 14:13:18 +0100 (BST) Cc: nawaz921@cs.uidaho.edu, chuckr@glue.umd.edu, freebsd-chat@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605231028.TAA08533@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at May 23, 96 07:58:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Moved this back to chat. In reply to Michael Smith who said > > > It becomes the default editor for everyone period, something I don't think > > is a good idea at all. > > It becomes the default editor for _root_. FCOL, will people at least > try to remember what the issues here are? Maybe I missed something here. Wasn't the change to the skel files. If it's only root's EDITOR that gets changed I find it an even sillier decision since as an ordinary user you'll still be using vi !!!!! > > Personally, I don't give a damn if some newbie gets scared off Unix > > because it doesn't have notepad. As I've already said, if they can't > > get over that hurdle then they can forget it because the rest of the > > stuff they have to learn is much scarier. I think that some people have > > Bollocks. You've obviously been away from the coalface _much_ too long. Ehh? I've got no idea what you're alluding to here? > No, it's not so easy. But at the same time, it _is_ a _shitload_ easier > if the tool that you're using to edit all these files doesn't require > a flowing white beard and a damaged forebrain to understand. I agree, I'm not forcing people to use vi, there are lots of editors available under FreeBSD but I'm serious in saying that if you can't overcome the hurdle of not having a DOS like editor then Unix really isn't for you. No matter how much you try and claim otherwise Unix is not a system for the casual computer user, you do need considerable computing knowledge to use it. > > Given that all these editors have always existed it must amount to something > > that no-one who has stuck with Unix actually use anything other than vi or > > emacs. > > Until fairly recently, Unix was the exclusive preserve of hackers and > serious programmers. In the last year or two this has changed, and people > with some experience elsewhere are giving up on other systems and moving in. > > This is a Good Thing. We should _help_ them. This is a _small_ > concession to make, and one that will be of immense value. Unix is very good at a number of things, ISP's prefer it and developers prefer it because it does those jobs well. One of the *good* things about it from a developer's point of view is a decent editor, either vi or emacs for doing *development*. Using Borland environments drive me nuts, I work much faster using the command line and vi. Using notepad and word are also much slower than using a powerfull editor like vi (substitute emacs if you dislike moded editors, that's not really the issue). I don't understand this burning desire by some people to make Unix accessible to absolutely anyone. It is not a newbie friendly OS because it *IS* for hackers and developers, if you start down the road of trying to change that you'll end up with NT :-) There's nothing worse than an unix advocate who thinks it's the greatest OS there is and everyone should use it. It's not, it's very good for particular tasks, Windows is the better option for a lot of others. I've asked this already, what editor does Linux provide by default. People move from Windows to Linux in droves so if anyone is getting this newbie stuff right it's the Linux crowd. This might be an interesting piece of research. My gut feeling is that people who really want to learn unix are those who have an interest in that sort of level of admin and casual computer users find it too much work and stick with windows. Given that breakdown of users the first group tend to not have any problem learning a new editor. I'm not arguing from the position that learning vi should be an initiation procedure for getting into unix, I'm trying to get the point across that changing the editor isn't going to change the fundamental nature of what unix is, it just prolongs the point before people realise what they're getting in to. -- Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor) Elsevier Science TIS online journal project. Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155 From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 23 06:44:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA12699 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 May 1996 06:44:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA12691 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 06:44:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id XAA08987; Thu, 23 May 1996 23:27:38 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199605231357.XAA08987@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: editors To: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk (Paul Richards) Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 23:27:38 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, nawaz921@cs.uidaho.edu, chuckr@glue.umd.edu, freebsd-chat@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605231313.OAA23966@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> from "Paul Richards" at May 23, 96 02:13:18 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Paul Richards stands accused of saying: > > > > It becomes the default editor for _root_. FCOL, will people at least > > try to remember what the issues here are? > > Maybe I missed something here. Wasn't the change to the skel files. If > it's only root's EDITOR that gets changed I find it an even sillier > decision since as an ordinary user you'll still be using vi !!!!! You really just aren't thinking about this one. The whole idea is to put a new user, who may be an extremely experienced DOS, Novell, whatever user, who is not in the slightest scared of configuration files, in a situation where they're not faced with a _totally_ inscrutable editor to deal with this. There is no hope for the totally klueless user installing FreeBSD. Nobody has ever suggested that there might be. But the above class of new user is _very_ common. Picking an editor that doesn't need to be explained lessens _significantly_ the steep end of the learning curve. Trust me; I've spent a lot of time over the last couple of years explaining how to do truly trivial things with vi to people who should never had needed to know. > > > Personally, I don't give a damn if some newbie gets scared off Unix > > > because it doesn't have notepad. As I've already said, if they can't > > > get over that hurdle then they can forget it because the rest of the > > > stuff they have to learn is much scarier. I think that some people have > > > > Bollocks. You've obviously been away from the coalface _much_ too long. > > Ehh? I've got no idea what you're alluding to here? I'm suggesting that you had not significant interaction with users learning Unix sufficiently recently to remember anything much about it. > I agree, I'm not forcing people to use vi, there are lots of editors > available under FreeBSD but I'm serious in saying that if you can't > overcome the hurdle of not having a DOS like editor then Unix really > isn't for you. No matter how much you try and claim otherwise Unix is > not a system for the casual computer user, you do need considerable > computing knowledge to use it. ... so we should do everything in our power to make it harder for people to come by such knowledge? Ok, let's split /etc/sysconfig up again into a dozen configuration files. Let's remove all the comments, and use a different syntax for all of them. Hell, let's stop using raw text; I'm sure vi can handle editing binaries, so let's just put everything in a big patch area in 'init'. > I've asked this already, what editor does Linux provide by default. People > move from Windows to Linux in droves so if anyone is getting this newbie > stuff right it's the Linux crowd. pico. > This might be an interesting piece of research. My gut feeling is that people > who really want to learn unix are those who have an interest in that sort > of level of admin and casual computer users find it too much work and stick > with windows. Given that breakdown of users the first group tend to not have > any problem learning a new editor. You're not thinking about the people who started with something else and find that it's not up to doing whatever they want (webserving, fileserving, image manipulation, etc.). Lots of these people are migrating to Unices, and many of them to FreeBSD. Some of them (eg. my employer) are producing products based on these systems that will be delivered to technically literate but Unix illiterate customers. In _many_ of these scenarios, a default, straightforward text editing tool can change a series of instructions that reads "type vi /etc/resolv.conf, then d,d,o,nameserver 1.2.3.4,esc,colon,q,enter" to "change the nameserver entry in /etc/resolv.conf to 1.2.3.4" I'll tell you which one _I'll_ want to explain to someone who speaks english like I do swahili on the other end of a crappy phone line. I'd even live with an alias in root's .cshrc for 'edit'. > I'm not arguing from the position that learning vi should be an > initiation procedure for getting into unix, I'm trying to get the point > across that changing the editor isn't going to change the fundamental > nature of what unix is, it just prolongs the point before people > realise what they're getting in to. As Chuck put it, it lowers the fear barrier. This is _important_. > Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor) -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 23 07:07:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA14178 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 May 1996 07:07:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA14167 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 07:07:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA00695; Thu, 23 May 1996 07:06:44 -0700 (PDT) To: Paul Richards cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith), nawaz921@cs.uidaho.edu, chuckr@glue.umd.edu, freebsd-chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: editors In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 23 May 1996 14:13:18 BST." <199605231313.OAA23966@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 07:06:44 -0700 Message-ID: <693.832860404@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > initiation procedure for getting into unix, I'm trying to get the point > across that changing the editor isn't going to change the fundamental > nature of what unix is, it just prolongs the point before people > realise what they're getting in to. And in that way, putting a nice face on UNIX is like marriage, Paul. You don't need to keep up the facade all the way, just long enough to get the user in past the point of no return. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 23 07:37:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA16525 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 May 1996 07:37:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epprod.elsevier.co.uk (epprod.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA16484 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 07:36:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk (snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]) by epprod.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA02110 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 15:35:30 +0100 Received: from cadair.elsevier.co.uk (actually host cadair) by snowdon with SMTP (PP); Thu, 23 May 1996 15:24:24 +0100 Received: (from dpr@localhost) by cadair.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA04334; Thu, 23 May 1996 15:23:26 +0100 From: Paul Richards Message-Id: <199605231423.PAA04334@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> Subject: Re: editors To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 15:23:25 +0100 (BST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, nawaz921@cs.uidaho.edu, chuckr@glue.umd.edu, freebsd-chat@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605231357.XAA08987@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at May 23, 96 11:27:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Michael Smith who said > > I'm suggesting that you had not significant interaction with users learning > Unix sufficiently recently to remember anything much about it. Well, that's certainly true, I don't let anyone through an interview unless they wrote their cv using nroff and ex so the people I work with are pretty unix aware :-) > Ok, let's split /etc/sysconfig up again into a dozen configuration files. > Let's remove all the comments, and use a different syntax for all of them. > Hell, let's stop using raw text; I'm sure vi can handle editing binaries, > so let's just put everything in a big patch area in 'init'. The way to make sysconfig more accessible is to write a configuration tool that doesn't even require an editor. The general feeling is that this is a good thing as long as the information is held in a plain text file so "experts" can get in there with an editor if they want to. I'm all in favour of making things easier, hell, I started us off down the sysinstall route in the first place and I didn't make any noise about ee going into the installation procedure because I agree that vi would be a bit of a problem to someone trying to install FreeBSD with no unix knowledge. > > I've asked this already, what editor does Linux provide by default. People > > move from Windows to Linux in droves so if anyone is getting this newbie > > stuff right it's the Linux crowd. > > pico. Interesting, and BSDI have done the same thing. If pico is bmaked then maybe we should move it into the base system and provide it as an option since it may be becoming fairly standard. We installed it on Cardiff University's mainframe OSF box as an "easy" alternative to vi and the Windows folks seemed to be happier with it. Providing new tools to make life easier doesn't bother me. Redefining what the normal unix environment is does bother me. -- Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor) Elsevier Science TIS online journal project. Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155 From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 23 07:43:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA16964 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 May 1996 07:43:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA16956 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 07:43:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id AAA09222; Fri, 24 May 1996 00:26:08 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199605231456.AAA09222@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: editors To: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk (Paul Richards) Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 00:26:07 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, nawaz921@cs.uidaho.edu, chuckr@glue.umd.edu, freebsd-chat@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605231423.PAA04334@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> from "Paul Richards" at May 23, 96 03:23:25 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Paul Richards stands accused of saying: > > Providing new tools to make life easier doesn't bother me. Redefining > what the normal unix environment is does bother me. The 'normal unix environment' is a pile of fantastically sophisticated and often complex tools lying in a jumbled heap. What you make of it is your own business, and I wouldn't suggest for a second that this flexibility should be sacrificed in amy way shape or form. All I'm proposing is that we give newcomers to the sandpit a small plastic bucket with some brightly-coloured stickers on to help make them feel comfortable, as opposed to a CNC sand-milling machine. > Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor) -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 23 07:58:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA18041 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 May 1996 07:58:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epprod.elsevier.co.uk (epprod.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA18023 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 07:58:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk (snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]) by epprod.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA02362 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 15:56:54 +0100 Received: from cadair.elsevier.co.uk (actually host cadair) by snowdon with SMTP (PP); Thu, 23 May 1996 15:43:54 +0100 Received: (from dpr@localhost) by cadair.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA04943 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 23 May 1996 15:43:03 +0100 From: Paul Richards Message-Id: <199605231443.PAA04943@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> Subject: Re: editors To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 15:43:03 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <718.832860852@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at May 23, 96 07:14:12 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Jordan K. Hubbard who said > > > > Bollocks. You've obviously been away from the coalface _much_ too long. > > > > What you on about? > > This was an allusion to the fact that you haven't been out in your > back yard in Wales recently, Paul. Go outside and see what's > happening! :-) There's no coalfields left in S. Wales, govt shut them all :-( Ohh and you're right, I haven't been out in my backyard in Wales for quite some time, been working in England for nearly 6 months, no wonder I'm ratty :-) > No, I think he actually meant this as a metaphor (which I've generally > heard used by british programmers, actually) - being "at the coalface" > means to be working at a much lower level, usually as some peon > just-out-of-university programmer who's struggling to pick away at a > set of problems that are totally new and different and right in his > face. Hmm, never come across that one. > As I've already said in another email, from my perspective I just want > things that are _self documenting_ in the installation path so that > you don't have to reach for a stack of books just to install the > system. If you had vi and some sort of "helper" app that actually > showed you the keymap and basic usage instructions in a side window > somehow, I'd happily use it here. Well, I'm perhaps getting this completely wrong. Are we just talking about the installation procedure or the tasks that need to be done after installation is finished and you actually log in? I thought that *most* of the initial setup tasks would be covered by sysinstall and that when you come to log in you're basically ready to go. During installation I agree that a simple editor is needed but I think when you come to actually log in for the first time things should be as you'd find them on a "generic" unix box. If you need to continue using the "easier" editor then the first thing you probably need to learn is how to change the default editor since you'll have to do it on any other box you may end up working on. Once everything's up and running EDITOR should be undefined by default. There perhaps needs to be a post-installation tips file, perhaps a message spouted from .login or motd that explains what to do. At least that way we educate new users as to what they need to do rather than making them think that's how it always is with unix. I actually quite liked the Ultrix "learn" command (was it in BSD originally?). After a couple of days going through learn I was hooked on vi and could generally find my way around. Maybe something similar would be a good project for someone to do for FreeBSD, maybe not teaching vi but going through a set of basic tutorials to set up a working environment etc. Thinking about it, the other thing I found usefull in my early days were the small ringbound Sun intro booklets that did exactly that, explained how to set up a working environment etc from an users point of view rather than an admins which is the sort of level we're talking about after sysinstall is completed. -- Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor) Elsevier Science TIS online journal project. Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155 From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 23 08:30:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA20104 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 May 1996 08:30:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA20099 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 08:30:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA01019; Thu, 23 May 1996 08:30:12 -0700 (PDT) To: Paul Richards cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: editors In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 23 May 1996 15:43:03 BST." <199605231443.PAA04943@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 08:30:12 -0700 Message-ID: <1017.832865412@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Well, I'm perhaps getting this completely wrong. Are we just talking > about the installation procedure or the tasks that need to be done > after installation is finished and you actually log in? I'm concerned only with the installation procedure - I don't know what all of the other folks in this discussion may be concerned with. :-) > Once everything's up and running EDITOR should be undefined by default. > There perhaps needs to be a post-installation tips file, perhaps a > message spouted from .login or motd that explains what to do. At least > that way we educate new users as to what they need to do rather than > making them think that's how it always is with unix. That'd be just fine with me - you know where the dotfiles are. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 23 08:32:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA20263 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 May 1996 08:32:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from io.org (io.org [198.133.36.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA20238 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 08:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zot.io.org (taob@zot.io.org [198.133.36.82]) by io.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA25851; Thu, 23 May 1996 11:32:08 -0400 Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 11:31:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Tao To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: FREEBSD-CHAT-L Subject: Re: SF/Bay Area/SJ events May 25 to June 1? In-Reply-To: <5279.832756654@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 22 May 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Poul-Henning is also out here in Peasant Hell, CA. which is right next > to Concord. Why don't we all "do lunch?" Or even better, dinner. :-) "Peasant Hell"? :) Either lunch or dinner sound great. Maybe even get a few more photos to submit into the FreeBSD people gallery. :) BTW, have your phone numbers changed? I noticed the number I had down as your home number is now listed as your office number in your finger info. Your boss is a slave driver if he forced you to move into the Walnut Creek offices. ;-) -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org, taob@ican.net) Systems and Network Administrator, Internet Canada Corp. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 23 08:36:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA20586 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 May 1996 08:36:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from io.org (io.org [198.133.36.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA20578 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 08:36:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zot.io.org (taob@zot.io.org [198.133.36.82]) by io.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA26332; Thu, 23 May 1996 11:35:11 -0400 Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 11:34:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Tao To: "Amancio Hasty Jr." cc: FREEBSD-CHAT-L Subject: Re: SF/Bay Area/SJ events May 25 to June 1? In-Reply-To: <199605220659.XAA01953@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 21 May 1996, Amancio Hasty Jr. wrote: > > Maybe we can broadcast the event on FreeBSD Lounge right out of > my aparment 8) Hey, nifty. :) For some odd reason, I always figured you lived in Texas, but I just checked the whois on star-gate.com. Guess I was wrong. ;-) Two more days to go, two more days... -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org, taob@ican.net) Systems and Network Administrator, Internet Canada Corp. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 23 08:53:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA22222 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 May 1996 08:53:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA22199; Thu, 23 May 1996 08:53:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uMch2-000QYYC; Thu, 23 May 96 17:52 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id RAA15290; Thu, 23 May 1996 17:50:13 +0200 Message-Id: <199605231550.RAA15290@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux To: gpalmer@FreeBSD.ORG (Gary Palmer) Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 17:50:13 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: questions@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Questions), chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: <13010.832824744@palmer.demon.co.uk> from "Gary Palmer" at May 23, 96 05:12:24 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Gary Palmer writes: > > Alain FAUCONNET wrote in message ID > <199605221138.AA17317@iaka.biomath.jussieu.fr>: >> * Availability of pre-compiled binaries and ports for non-commercial software: >> Linux +10, FreeBSD 0 > > One comment about this. > > Linux is schitzophrenic (or however you spell it). It has a mixture of > Sys V and BSD in it, and that sometimes leads to porting > problems. Perhaps there are so many pre-compiled `.tgz' files for > linux as it's more difficult to port s/w to linux than to a BSD > derrivative? Quite a few of the ports that I've seen done (and are in > the ports collection) don't even need patching, they compile out of > the box, and without needing special ``FreeBSD'' ifdefs in the > Makefiles or source code... To be fair to Linux, I don't think that it's that difficult to port to. A lot of pure System V systems (*with* heritage :-) are worse. May I say names? UnixWare? SCO "UNIX"? I think the real reason why it's easier to port to *BSD (yes, I agree with this part) is that most of the free software out on the net was written on BSD boxes. This, I suppose, reflects that fact that BSD has been around a lot longer than Linux, and also that people have traditionally had more fun with BSD than they have with System V. > It helps to have a heritage... It helps to have a good heritage. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 23 09:03:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA23685 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 May 1996 09:03:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maki.wwa.com (maki.wwa.com [198.49.174.21]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA23679 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 09:03:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wendigo.trans.sni-usa.com by maki.wwa.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0uMcrR-000ryYC; Thu, 23 May 96 11:03 CDT Received: from vogon.trans.sni-usa.com (vogon.trans.sni-usa.com [136.157.83.215]) by wendigo.trans.sni-usa.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA01493 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 11:03:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from shyam.trans.sni-usa.com (shyam.trans.sni-usa.com [136.157.82.43]) by vogon.trans.sni-usa.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA15523 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 11:10:13 -0500 From: hal@snitt.com (Hal Snyder) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is Token Ring supported? Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 16:03:32 GMT Organization: Siemens Nixdorf Transportation Technologies Message-ID: <31a48995.64509645@vogon.trans.sni-usa.com> References: <199605230132.VAA10851@shell.monmouth.com> In-Reply-To: <199605230132.VAA10851@shell.monmouth.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99e/32.227 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > JM> We need to set up a DHCP server at work - but it needs to support > > JM> token ring. > > JM> If FreeBSD doesn't support TR, I guess we'll be forced to use BSDi or > > JM> even NT. This is not strictly on topic - at least until FreeBSD supports TR - but the subject of NT doing DHCP is a red flag here... At SNITT, where we run a mix of FreeBSD, SVR4, and NT, we tried twice to use the DHCP services that come with NT Server 3.51 and gave up in disgust, both times going back to statically assigned IP addresses. Reasons were: 1) NT services get royally confused when servers have more than one LAN interface (not just DHCP, but WINS and browser too); 2) the DHCP admin app is very good at losing its tables or getting them into an unusable state, and without being able to save/edit config in a text file, that means entering the entire damn setup over and over; 3) DHCP clients cannot be told which suffixes to append to unqualified host names, so there is still a part of system setup that has to be done locally at each client; 4) total lack of any sane, useful diagnostic tools. -- Hal Snyder 847-698-0300 x 523 (voice) 847-698-3212 (fax) Siemens Nixdorf Transportation Technologies http://www.snitt.com 6400 Shafer Ct, Suite 200, Rosemont, IL 60018 From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 23 09:27:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA26154 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 May 1996 09:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yucca.cs.odu.edu (root@yucca.cs.odu.edu [128.82.4.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA26145 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 09:27:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fog.cs.odu.edu (bowden@fog.cs.odu.edu [128.82.4.35]) by yucca.cs.odu.edu (8.7.3/8.6.4) with SMTP id MAA21885; Thu, 23 May 1996 12:22:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 12:24:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Paul Richards cc: Michael Smith , nawaz921@cs.uidaho.edu, chuckr@glue.umd.edu, freebsd-chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: editors In-Reply-To: <199605231313.OAA23966@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 23 May 1996, Paul Richards wrote: > issue). I don't understand this burning desire by some people to make > Unix accessible to absolutely anyone. It is not a newbie friendly OS > because it *IS* for hackers and developers, if you start down the road > of trying to change that you'll end up with NT :-) There's nothing > worse than an unix advocate who thinks it's the greatest OS there is and > everyone should use it. It's not, it's very good for particular tasks, > Windows is the better option for a lot of others. I think you're wrong here. NT is convoluted and painfull. It's as bad as UNIX in some ways. However, it will be microsloth's only os in about three years. I think we use what we're comfortable with. If we had all started on UNIX, DOS/Windows would be unknown territory, and the 'clueless' user wouldn't go near it. I think we should all have been weened on UNIX anyway. Jamie I have my finger on the pulse of the planet. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 23 09:48:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA28651 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 May 1996 09:48:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epprod.elsevier.co.uk (epprod.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA28504 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 09:48:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk (snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]) by epprod.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA03402 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 17:46:55 +0100 Received: from cadair.elsevier.co.uk (actually host cadair) by snowdon with SMTP (PP); Thu, 23 May 1996 17:46:52 +0100 Received: (from dpr@localhost) by cadair.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA21420; Thu, 23 May 1996 17:46:17 +0100 From: Paul Richards Message-Id: <199605231646.RAA21420@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> Subject: Re: editors To: bowden@cs.odu.edu (Jamie Bowden) Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 17:46:16 +0100 (BST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Jamie Bowden" at May 23, 96 12:24:33 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Jamie Bowden who said > > I think you're wrong here. NT is convoluted and painfull. It's as bad > as UNIX in some ways. However, it will be microsloth's only os in about > three years. I think we use what we're comfortable with. If we had all I doubt that very much, I wasn't talking about NT I was talking about Windows and I think that'll be with us for a very long time. Hell, 5 years ago my father wouldn't go near a computer, he raves about his Win95 box all the time now! When I took my unix box home at christmas he wondered what the hell it was, it depends what you need to do, unix is not for everyone. Windows really is a switch it on and use it system in the main which is why non-computer literate folks find it accessible. NT is not Windows, it's a "real" OS and the admin overhead that goes with a real OS is embodied in it. > started on UNIX, DOS/Windows would be unknown territory, and the > 'clueless' user wouldn't go near it. I think we should all have been > weened on UNIX anyway. I was weened on Unix but I'm not *that* old, still only 28, windows didn't even exist at the time :-) Well actually, I was weened on rather more basic systems, like the old Commodore PET and UK folks will remember the old BBC computer but Unix was my first real OS. -- Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor) Elsevier Science TIS online journal project. Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155 From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 23 11:48:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA08836 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 May 1996 11:48:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yucca.cs.odu.edu (root@yucca.cs.odu.edu [128.82.4.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA08831 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 11:48:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fog.cs.odu.edu (bowden@fog.cs.odu.edu [128.82.4.35]) by yucca.cs.odu.edu (8.7.3/8.6.4) with SMTP id OAA26226; Thu, 23 May 1996 14:44:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 14:46:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Paul Richards cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: editors In-Reply-To: <199605231646.RAA21420@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 23 May 1996, Paul Richards wrote: > NT is not Windows, it's a "real" OS and the admin overhead that goes with > a real OS is embodied in it. All "Win95 Approved by Billy Bob Gates himself" software MUST run on NT. M$ isn't doing that for shits and giggles. They only want one os to: a: develope (they spend real money on developement) b: support (it isn't cheap either) c: advertise (yet another expense) Bill's not stupid, and if all the 32bit soft is NT ready, the upgrade becomes painless from a user standpoint. With NT getting Win95's interface, it's not even gonna be a noticeable change, and NT isn't diff to build a single user box with ( no more than OS/2, anyway ). I don't believe in 3 - 5 years, you are gonna see more than one os available from Microsoft. Jamie I have my finger on the pulse of the planet. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 23 12:24:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA10993 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 May 1996 12:24:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA10988 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 12:24:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA02605; Thu, 23 May 1996 12:24:27 -0700 (PDT) To: Brian Tao cc: FREEBSD-CHAT-L Subject: Re: SF/Bay Area/SJ events May 25 to June 1? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 23 May 1996 11:31:00 EDT." Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 12:24:27 -0700 Message-ID: <2603.832879467@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > :) BTW, have your phone numbers changed? I noticed the number I had > down as your home number is now listed as your office number in your The home and office phones are both me at home, it's just that the office phone is the cell phone in my car. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 23 14:29:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA21915 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 May 1996 14:29:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA21866 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 14:28:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id XAA11059; Thu, 23 May 1996 23:27:54 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA11602; Thu, 23 May 1996 23:27:54 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA19195; Thu, 23 May 1996 22:53:35 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199605232053.WAA19195@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Is Token Ring supported? To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 22:53:35 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: pechter@shell.monmouth.com, plm@simplex.nl Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <3297.832849938@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "May 23, 96 04:12:18 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > We've been waiting a long time for some token ring person to do the > driver. :-) Matt Thomas (the author of the *BSD DEC-21040 and FDDI driver) once told to write one, but apparently never finished it. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 23 17:22:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA08809 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 May 1996 17:22:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from platon.cs.rhbnc.ac.uk (dns1.rhbnc.ac.uk [134.219.44.52]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA08804 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 17:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from platon (platon.cs.rhbnc.ac.uk [134.219.96.1]) by platon.cs.rhbnc.ac.uk (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA03801 for ; Fri, 24 May 1996 01:25:18 +0100 Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 01:25:18 +0100 (BST) From: " Stephen P. Butler" X-Sender: stephen@platon To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: editors In-Reply-To: <199605231423.PAA04334@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 23 May 1996, Paul Richards wrote: > The way to make sysconfig more accessible is to write a configuration tool > that doesn't even require an editor. The general feeling is that this is > a good thing as long as the information is held in a plain text file so > "experts" can get in there with an editor if they want to. This is a reasonable in principle. An automatic configuration tool should try to generate a good enough default with information that an "average" user can easily provide, that the "average" user probably wouldn't realise the need to customise things further. I suspect that with FreeBSD, the difficulty will be in agreeing how much the average FreeBSD user will be expected to know/understand. The answer to this question depends on who overall, it is decided FreeBSD is aimed at. > I'm all in favour of making things easier, hell, I started us off down the > sysinstall route in the first place and I didn't make any noise about > ee going into the installation procedure because I agree that vi would > be a bit of a problem to someone trying to install FreeBSD with no > unix knowledge. > If pico is bmaked then maybe we should move it into the base system and > provide it as an option since it may be becoming fairly standard. We > installed it on Cardiff University's mainframe OSF box as an "easy" > alternative to vi and the Windows folks seemed to be happier with it. I've used pine, but never used the default editor. I've done an amount of sys. admin under fire (when /usr won't mount :-) and I've learnt enough vi to load a config file, make the necessary changes and save it again so I can get I editor I know how to use working. To be honest, I feel I should've spent the minimal effort I've exerted on vi for something more productive, like, ed for instance. vi is an abomination - it's probably the worst mistake Bill Joy ever made in his life. Mistakes are made, but there comes a point when covering up for the mistake should give way to fixing the mistake once and for all. Preserving a mistake on the grounds that it's always been like that is a terribly sad situation to be in. If you've made the effort to learn vi, great! It'll still be provided as an option. Let's face it, if you've made the effort to learn vi, you'll almost certainly know how to start it using /bin/vi or setting your EDITOR environment variable. Since everybody, including someone who knows vi can use an editor like pico to edit a config file so that they can get vi going, what's to be gained from arguing about it? pico is easy because it provides a nice menu at the bottom which tells you how to save the file and allows you to edit the file in a straight forward fashion. How is some poor b*****d supposed to work that out in vi? Divine Intervention? The poor sod probably won't be able to work out how she edits the file, let alone delete a single character that's wrong. I won't even imagine how she is then supposed to work out how to save a file. To be fair to both sides (and I'm an Emacs user) while you can quite easily edit the file in Emacs, you'd need to be a particularly twisted individual to guess that you need C-x C-c to save the file and exit, so Emacs isn't a good choice for this either. It seems to me that chosing an editor that tells you what to do is a positive help for everybody who is new to what's going on. If they're not new to Unix, they won't even realise that they need to thank you for making things easy for them (always the sign of a job well done), and if they're not, then they'll know how to get vi, or emacs or whatever going anyway. If space is at a premium, just put pico or whatever is chosen on the boot disc, and once the install is at a suitable. Sure, Unix isn't an operating system for people who aren't interested in learning it's ways to use, but putting artificial barriers in people's way when there is a better choice is never, in my opinon, justified. > Providing new tools to make life easier doesn't bother me. Redefining > what the normal unix environment is does bother me. Paul, you're a bright guy, but sometimes we all need to let the past go, shed a tear for it, then fix the problems and move on. To sum up, I'd advocate an editor which didn't didn't require a PhD in human/computer non-interaction to just edit a file so you could get going, while having the faith that people who know what they're doing will know what they're doing and will therefore do it. To be honest, I guess this is a religious, rather a technical issue, but maybe everybody can come to agreement on this based on common sense. If you think I'm way off base, feel free to flame me, hopefully I'll learn something from the discussion. No doubt my technical competance, intelligence, sanity, spelling, grammar, brand of deodorant etc. may also be brought into question, but hey that's life. Regards, Stephen. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------- |Stephen Butler |stephen@dcs.rhbnc.ac.uk | |Computer Science Undergraduate. | | |Royal Holloway, University of London.| | | | | ---------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 23 18:14:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA14384 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 May 1996 18:14:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoover.stanford.edu (hoover.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.99]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA14373; Thu, 23 May 1996 18:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from HOOVER.STANFORD.EDU by HOOVER.STANFORD.EDU (PMDF V4.3-10 #13307) id <01I51YO5XJZ4006OBL@HOOVER.STANFORD.EDU>; Thu, 23 May 1996 18:14:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 18:14:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson Subject: Re: editors, vi, documentation for newusers To: freebsd-doc@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-id: <01I51YO5Y39U006OBL@HOOVER.STANFORD.EDU> X-VMS-To: IN%"freebsd-doc@freebsd.org" X-VMS-Cc: IN%"freebsd-chat@freebsd.org",ANDRSN MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Given the discussion that has been going on here about vi and making things easier for new users, you might be interested in a guide I wrote for people new to both freebsd *and* unix. John Fieber has been working on integrating this into the handbook and I have asked him not include it in the sections on "unix basics" because it is not that, nor do I have the capability to contribute to that; it is rather a guide on a few essential tasks and some suggestions on navigation and sources of information that will help new users get acquainted with the system faster. It is also not a guide on how to configure the system in any way. I have sent it to a few people who have indicated that they know little unix and they seem to have found it helpful (including the section on vi). It also includes a simple description of getting ports from the cdrom. In all areas it could be expanded, but the point is to give people enough to get along, not everything at once. John and I agree that the section on the ls commands should use standard unix commands and not the aliases, which is the only major change I think we are contemplating. My only qualification for writing this is the insight of a user new to both freebsd and unix not very long ago, which is about all I have to offer right now. Here it is (18k). Annelise May 9, 1996 For People New to Both FreeBSD *and* Unix Congratulations on installing FreeBSD! This introduction is for people new to both FreeBSD *and* Un*x--so it starts with basics. It assumes you're using version 2.0.5 or later of FreeBSD as distributed by Walnut Creek or FreeBSD.ORG, your system (for now) has a single user (you)--and you're probably pretty good with DOS/Windows or OS/2. Topics Covered 1) Logging in and Getting Out 2) Adding a User with Root Privileges 3) Looking Around 4) Getting Help and Information 5) Editing Text 6) Printing Files from DOS 7) Other Useful Commands 8) Next Steps 9) Other 10) Comments Welcome 1) Logging in and Getting Out Log in (when you see login:) as a user you created during installation or as root. (Your FreeBSD installation will already have an account for root; root can go anywhere and do anything, including deleting essential files, so be careful!) To log out (and get a new login prompt) type exit as often as necessary. Yes, press enter after commands, and remember that Unix is case-sensitive--exit, not EXIT. To shut down the machine (if you logged in as root) type /sbin/shutdown -h now Or to reboot type /sbin/reboot If you're not logged in as root, you can still reboot with Ctrl-Alt-Delete. Give it a little time to do its work. This is equivalent to /sbin/reboot in recent releases of FreeBSD, and is much, much better than hitting the reset button. You don't want to have to reinstall this thing, do you? 2) Adding A User with Root Privileges If you didn't create any users when you installed the system and are thus logged in as root, you should probably create a user now with adduser Don't use the -verbose option; the defaults are what you want. Suppose you create a user jack with full name Jack Benimble. Give jack a password if security (even kids around who might pound on the keyboard) is an issue. When it asks you if you want to invite jack into other groups, type wheel This will make it possible to log in as jack and use the su command to become root. Then you won't get scolded any more for logging in as root, and as root you'll have the same environment as jack (this is good). You can quit adduser any time by typing Ctrl-C, and at the end you'll have a chance to approve your new user or simply type n for no. You might want to create a second newuser (jill?) so that when you edit jack's login files, you'll have a hot spare in case something goes wrong. Once you've done this, use exit to get back to a login prompt and log in as jack. If you already created a user and you want the user to be able to su to root, you can log in as root and edit the file /etc/group, adding jack to the first line (the group wheel). But first you need to practice vi, the text editor. 3) Looking Around Logged in as an ordinary user, look around and try out some commands that will access the sources of help and information within FreeBSD. Here are some commands and what they do: id Tells you who you are! pwd Shows you where you are--the current working directory. ls Lists the files in the current directory. lf Lists the files in the current directory with a * after executables, a / after directories, and an @ after symbolic links. ll Lists the files in long format--size, date, permissions. la Lists hidden (unless you're root) "dot" files with the others. cd Changes directories. cd .. backs up one level; note the space after cd. cd /usr/local goes there. cd~ goes to the home directory of the person logged in--e.g., /usr/home/jack. Try cd /cdrom, and then ls, to find out if your cdrom is mounted and working. view filename Lets you look at a file (named "filename" without changing it. Try view /etc/fstab. :q to quit. cat filename Displays filename on screen. If it's too long and you can see only the end of it, press ScrollLock and use the up-arrow to move backward; you can use ScrollLock with man pages too. Press ScrollLock again to quit scrolling. You might want to try cat on some of the dot files in your home directory--cat .cshrc, cat .login, cat .profile. lf, ll, and la are aliases for longer forms of these commands, and won't work with most versions of Un*x. You can create other aliases in .cshrc. 4) Getting Help and Information Here are some useful sources of help. "text" stands for something of your choice that you type in--usually a command or filename. apropos text Everything containing string "text" in the whatis database. man text The man page for "text." The major source of documentation for Un*x systems. man ls will tell you all the ways to use the ls command. Press Enter to move through text, Ctrl-b to go back a page, Ctrl-f to go forward, :q or Ctrl-c to quit. which text Tells you where in the user's path the command "text" is found. locate text All the paths where the string "text" is found. whatis text Tells you what the command "text" does and its man page. whereis text Finds the file "text," giving its full path. You might want to try using whatis on some common useful commands like cat, more, grep, mv, find, tar, chmod, chown, date, and script. more lets you read a page at a time as it does in DOS, e.g., ll | more or more filename. The * works as a wildcard--e.g., ls w* will show you files beginning with w. Are some of these not working very well? Both locate and whatis depend on a database that's rebuilt weekly. If your machine isn't going to be left on over the weekend (and running FreeBSD), you might want to run the commands for daily, weekly, and monthly maintenance now and then. Run them as root and give each one time to finish before you start the next one, for now. /etc/daily /etc/weekly /etc/monthly If you get tired waiting, press Alt-F2 to get another virtual console, and log in again. After all, it's a multi-user, multi-tasking system. Nevertheless these commands will probably flash messages on your screen while they're running; you can type clear at the prompt to clear the screen. Once they've run, you might want to look at /var/mail/root and /var/log/messages. Basically running such commands is part of system administration--and as a single user of a Unix system, you're your own system administrator. Virtually everything you need to be root to do is system administration. Such responsibilities aren't covered very well even in those big fat books on Unix, which seem to devote a lot of space to pulling down menus in windows managers. You might want to get one of the two leading books on systems administration, either Evi Nemeth et.al.'s UNIX System Administration Handbook (Prentice-Hall, 1995, ISBN 0-13-15051-7)--the second edition with the red cover; or Aileen Frisch's Essential System Administration (O'Reilly & Associates, 1993, ISBN 0-937175-80-3). I used Nemeth. 5) Editing Text To configure your system, you need to edit text files. Most of them will be in the /etc directory; and you'll need to su to root to be able to change them. The text editor is vi. Before you edit a file, you should probably back it up. Suppose you want to edit /etc/sysconfig. You could just use cd /etc to get to the /etc directory and do: cp sysconfig sysconfig.orig This would copy sysconfig to sysconfig.orig, and you could later copy sysconfig.orig to sysconfig to recover the original. But even better would be moving (renaming) and then copying back: mv sysconfig sysconfig.orig cp sysconfig.orig sysconfig because the mv command preserves the original date and owner of the file. You can now edit sysconfig. If you want the original back, you'd then mv sysconfig syconfig.myedit (assuming you want to preserve your edited version) and then mv sysconfig.orig sysconfig to put things back the way they were. To edit a file, type vi filename Move through the text with the arrow keys. Esc (the escape key) puts vi in command mode. Here are some commands: x delete letter the cursor is on dd delete the entire line (even if it wraps on the screen) i insert text at the cursor a insert text after the cursor Once you type i or a, you can enter text. Esc puts you back in command mode where you can type :w to write your changes to disk and continue editing :wq to write and quit :q! to quit without saving changes /text to move the cursor to "text"; /Enter (the enter key) to find the next instance of "text". G to go to the end of the file nG to go to line n in the file, where n is a number Ctrl-L to redraw the screen Ctrl-b and Ctrl-f go back and forward a screen, as they do with more and view. Practice with vi in your home directory by creating a new file with vi filename and adding and deleting text, saving the file, and calling it up again. vi delivers some surprises because it's really quite complex, and sometimes you'll inadvertently issue a command that will do something you don't expect. (Some people actually like vi--it's more powerful than DOS EDIT--find out about the :r command.) Use Esc one or more times to be sure you're in command mode and proceed from there when it gives you trouble, save often with :w, and use :q! to get out and start over (from your last :w) when you need to. Now you can cd to /etc, su to root, use vi to edit the file /etc/group, and add a user to wheel so the user has root privileges. Just add a comma and the user's login name to the end of the first line in the file, press Esc, and use :wq to write the file to disk and quit. Instantly effective. (You didn't put a space after the comma, did you?) 6) Printing Files from DOS At this point you probably don't have the printer working, so here's a way to create a file from a man page, move it to a floppy, and then print it from DOS. Suppose you want to read carefully about changing permissions on files (pretty important). You can use the command man chmod to read about it. The command man chmod > chmod.txt will send the man page to the chmod.txt file instead of showing it on your screen. Now put a dos-formatted diskette in your floppy drive a, su to root, and type /sbin/mount -t msdos /dev/fd0 /mnt to mount the floppy drive on /mnt. Now (you no longer need to be root, and you can type su jack to get back to being user jack) you can go to the directory where you created chmod.txt and copy the file to the floppy with: cp chmod.txt /mnt and use ls /mnt to get a directory listing of /mnt, which should show the file chmod.txt. You might especially want to make a file from /sbin/dmesg by typing /sbin/dmesg > dmesg.txt and copying dmesg.txt to the floppy. /sbin/dmesg is the boot log record, and it's useful to understand it because it shows what FreeBSD found when it booted up. If you ask questions on questions@freebsd.org or on a USENET group--like "FreeBSD isn't finding my tape drive, what do I do?"--people will want to know what dmesg has to say. You can now dismount the floppy drive (as root) to get the disk out with /sbin/umount /mnt or reboot to go to DOS. Copy these files to a DOS directory, call them up with DOS EDIT, Windows Notepad, or a word processor, make a minor change so the file has to be saved, and print as you normally would from DOS or Windows. Hope it works! man pages come out best if printed with the dos print command. (Copying files from FreeBSD to a mounted dos partition is in some cases still a little risky.) If you want to get the printer printing from FreeBSD, make sure there's a subdirectory of /var/spool/output called lpd. If there isn't, cd to /var/spool/output and type mkdir lpd 7) Other Useful Commands df shows file space and mounted systems. ps aux shows processes running. ps ax is a narrower form. lsdev lists configured devices devmenu a menu of devices--in color! rm filename remove filename rm -R dir removes a directory dir and all subdirectories--careful! ls -R lists files in the current directory and all subdirectories; I used a variant, lf -R > where.txt, to get a list of all the files in / and (separately) /usr before I found better ways to find files. passwd to change user's password (or root's password) man hier man page on the Unix file system Use find to locate filename in /usr or any of its subdirectories with find /usr -name "filename" You can use * as a wildcard in "filename" (which should be in quotes). If you tell find to search in / instead of /usr it will look for the file(s) on all mounted file systems, including the cdrom and the dos partition. An excellent book that explains Unix commands and utilities is Abrahams & Larson, Unix for the Impatient (2nd ed., Addison-Wesley, 1996). There's also a lot of Unix information on the Internet. Try http://www.eecs.nwu.edu/unix.html (Unix Reference Desk) 8) Next Steps You should now have the tools you need to get around and edit files, so you can get everything up and running. There is a great deal of information in the FreeBSD handbook (which is probably on your hard drive) and FreeBSD's web site, http://www.freebsd.org. A wide variety of packages and ports are on the Walnut Creek cdrom as well as the web site. The handbook tells you more about how to use them (get the package if it exists, with pkg_add /cdrom/packages/All/packagename, where packagename is the filename of the package). The cdrom has lists of the packages and ports with brief descriptions in cdrom/packages/index, cdrom/packages/index.txt, and cdrom/ports/index, with fuller descriptions in /cdrom/ports/*/*/pkg/DESCR, where the *s represent subdirectories of kinds of programs and program names respectively. If you find the handbook too sophisticated (what with lndir and all) on installing ports from the cdrom, here's what usually works: Find the port you want, say kermit. There will be a directory for it on the cdrom. Copy the subdirectory to /usr/local (a good place for software you add that should be available to all users) with: cp -R /cdrom/ports/comm/kermit /usr/local This should result in a /usr/local/kermit subdirectory that has all the files that the /kermit subdirectory on the cdrom has. cd to the subdirectory of /usr/local/kermit that has the file Makefile. Type make all install During this process the port will ftp to get any compressed files it needs. It will put them in /usr/ports/distfiles. If you don't have your network running yet, you will have to get the distfile using another machine and copy it to /usr/ports/distfiles from a floppy or your dos partition. Read Makefile (with cat or more or view) to find out where to go (the master distribution site) to get the file and what its name is. Its name will be truncated when downloaded to DOS, and after you get it into /usr/ports/distfiles you'll have to rename it (with the mv command) to its original name so it can be found. (Use binary file transfers!) The other thing that happens when installing ports or packages is that some other program is needed. If the installation stops with a message "can't find unzip" or whatever, you might need to install the package or port for unzip before you continue. Once it's installed type rehash to make FreeBSD reread the files in the path so it knows what's there. (If you get a lot of "path not found" messages when you use whereis or which, you might want to make additions to the list of directories in the path statement in .cshrc in your home directory. The path statement in Unix does the same kind of work it does in DOS, except the current directory is not (by default) in the path; if the command you want is in the directory you're in, you need to type ./ before the command to make it work; no space after the slash.) You might want to get the most recent version of Netscape from their ftp site, ftp.netscape.com. (Netscape requires XWindows.) The version you want is the "unknown bsd" version. Just use gunzip filename and tar xvf filename on it, move the binary to /usr/local/bin or some other place binaries are kept, rehash, and then do the following: Make a symbolic link (similar to a shortcut in Windows 95 or a shadow in OS/2) in the directory that has X11R6 (probably /usr) as follows: ln -s X11R6 X11 and put the following lines in .cshrc in each user's home directory or (easier) in /etc/csh.cshrc, the system-wide csh start-up file: setenv XKEYSYMDB /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/XKeysymDB setenv XNLSPATH /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/nls This assumes that the file XKeysymDB and the directory nls are in /usr/X11R6/lib/X11; if they're not, find them and put them there. 9) Other As root, you can dismount the cdrom with /sbin/umount /cdrom, take it out of the drive, insert another one, and mount it with /sbin/mount_cd9660 /dev/cd0a /cdrom assuming cd0a is the device name for your cdrom drive. Using the live file system--the second of FreeBSD's cdrom disks--is useful if you've got limited space. You might try using emacs or playing games from the cdrom. This involves using lndir to tell the program(s) where to find the necessary files, because they're in the /cdrom file system instead of in /usr and its subdirectories, which is where they're expected to be. Read man lndir. You can delete a user (say, jack) by using the command vipw to bring up the master.passwd file; delete the line for jack and save the file. Then edit /etc/group, eliminating jack wherever it appears. Finally, go to the /usr/home and use rm -R jack (to get rid of user jack's home directory files). 10) Comments Welcome. If you use this guide I'd be interested in knowing where it was unclear and what was left out that you think should be included, and if it was helpful. My thanks to Eugene W. Stark, professor of computer science at SUNY-Stony Brook, for helpful comments. Annelise Anderson mailto:andrsn@hoover.stanford.edu _____________________________________________________________________ "Man my only friend" --The computer Mike to Manuel Garcia O'Kelly in Robert Heinlein's _The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress_ ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 23 20:01:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id UAA29068 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 May 1996 20:01:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xs1.simplex.nl (xs1.simplex.NL [193.78.46.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA29062 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 20:01:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Organisation-1: Simplex Networking Amsterdam X (Inter)Network X-Organisation-2: Kruislaan 419-38a 1098 VA Amsterdam X Solutions & X-Organisation-3: tel:+31(20)-6932433 fax:+31(20)-6685486 X Access Provider Received: (from uucp@localhost) by xs1.simplex.nl (8.7.5/8.7.3-RS) with UUCP id FAA03339; Fri, 24 May 1996 05:01:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from plm@localhost) by plm.simplex.nl (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA11480; Thu, 23 May 1996 18:34:35 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 18:34:35 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199605231634.SAA11480@plm.simplex.nl> From: Peter Mutsaers To: jkh@time.cdrom.com CC: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <3297.832849938@time.cdrom.com> (jkh@time.cdrom.com) Subject: Re: Is Token Ring supported? Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> "KH" == "Jordan K Hubbard" writes: >> > Linux supports token ring (well; I've done some experiments with it >> > today). You can use that too. I'd love to see it for FreeBSD too. KH> We've been waiting a long time for some token ring person to do KH> the driver. :-) KH> The big problem is that token ring is so rare, even if you could KH> find 10 individuals capable of writing a driver for a Madge or KH> IBM token ring card you'll probably also find that none of them KH> had any access to a token ring network. It's the people with KH> motivated self-interest who are going to end up doing it or not KH> at all. :-) I do have access, but I have only a PC with 40MB free. I work at a bank (almost all banks in the Netherlands have token-ring, not ethernet) but not for long anymore. I'll be gone there in a few weeks (and I'm very glad about that). So I don't have much self-interest anymore either. -- ______________________________________________________________________ Peter Mutsaers | Abcoude (Utrecht), | "Quod licet bovis, plm@simplex.nl | the Netherlands | non licet Jovi." From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 23 22:16:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA20557 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 May 1996 22:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA20545 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 22:16:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA01652; Thu, 23 May 1996 22:16:31 -0700 Message-Id: <199605240516.WAA01652@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Brian Tao cc: FREEBSD-CHAT-L Subject: Re: SF/Bay Area/SJ events May 25 to June 1? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 23 May 1996 11:34:03 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 22:16:30 -0700 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Tue, 21 May 1996, Amancio Hasty Jr. wrote: > > > > Maybe we can broadcast the event on FreeBSD Lounge right out of > > my aparment 8) > > Hey, nifty. :) For some odd reason, I always figured you lived > in Texas, but I just checked the whois on star-gate.com. Guess I was > wrong. ;-) > > Two more days to go, two more days... > -- Sorry no MBONE party however you are welcome to stop by 8) I have been trashing the shit out of the P400 again and was disconnected all day due to the down P400. And, one of the upstream mrouteds on MCI's network is hosing up the mbone connection to TLG.NET. Oh, is a lot of fun over here right now 8) One day cruising thru Texas on my then red mitusubishi eclipse, a Texas ranger gave me mean look as almost dying to get hold me;however, he had stopped someone else so we has busy. 8) Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 23 23:01:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA26867 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 May 1996 23:01:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA26860 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 23:01:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA01097; Fri, 24 May 1996 01:00:02 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 01:00:01 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu To: Paul Richards cc: Michael Smith , chuckr@glue.umd.edu, freebsd-chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: editors In-Reply-To: <199605231313.OAA23966@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 23 May 1996, Paul Richards wrote: > I'm not arguing from the position that learning vi should be an > initiation procedure for getting into unix, I'm trying to get the point > across that changing the editor isn't going to change the fundamental > nature of what unix is, it just prolongs the point before people > realise what they're getting in to. Two points: 1. There is an assumption in this statement that new unix users are new computer users. It may very well be that many people now coming to unix have extensive of high level computer experience and are perfectly capable of dealing with the complexities of unix. 2. Some experiences in life are difficult and unpleasnt. Just to make sure nobody gets a rude shock, maybe we should see to it that all of life is difficult and unpleasnt. People would be much better off that way. While there are a fair number of genuinely difficult things in any sophisticated operating system, unix also provides users with an array of difficulties that are simply due to lousy design. A user who would ordinairly be able to cope with the inherently difficult things may very well be overwhelmed by the combination of the difficult things with the lousy design. Instead of prolonging meeting the real complexity of unix, the hurdle of something like vi may be what pushes the total system complexity above the threshold of what the user can deal with. The result is that they go off and use NT or Netware, which pay a little attention to HCI research, when unix may have been a better choice for the user's application. No, changing the editor isn't going to change the nature of unix, but it is a start at making the power a little more accessible. -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 24 05:45:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA26805 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 May 1996 05:45:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sys8.wfc.com (sys8.wfc.com [199.171.126.8]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA26792 for ; Fri, 24 May 1996 05:44:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sys8.wfc.com id AA02226; Fri, 24 May 96 07:42:43 -0500 Date: Fri, 24 May 96 07:42:43 -0500 Message-Id: <9605241242.AA02226@sys8.wfc.com> From: Mike Eggleston To: stephen@dcs.rhbnc.ac.uk Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: (stephen@dcs.rhbnc.ac.uk) Subject: Re: editors Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> """ == " Stephen P Butler" writes: > On Thu, 23 May 1996, Paul Richards wrote: >> Providing new tools to make life easier doesn't bother >> me. Redefining what the normal unix environment is does bother me. > Paul, you're a bright guy, but sometimes we all need to let the past > go, shed a tear for it, then fix the problems and move on. > To sum up, I'd advocate an editor which didn't didn't require a PhD > in human/computer non-interaction to just edit a file so you could > get going, while having the faith that people who know what they're > doing will know what they're doing and will therefore do it. > To be honest, I guess this is a religious, rather a technical issue, > but maybe everybody can come to agreement on this based on common > sense. If you think I'm way off base, feel free to flame me, > hopefully I'll learn something from the discussion. No doubt my > technical competance, intelligence, sanity, spelling, grammar, brand > of deodorant etc. may also be brought into question, but hey that's > life. Frankly, I like vi and have since I figured out how it was designed. There has never been a faster editor. I agree that it is cryptic and I tell each individual that I train on Unix that it is cryptic, but I help them get through it and to become productive with whatever they need to do. If it is an issue of providing another editor on the boot disk to make things easier, why not simply provide an electronic cheat-sheet on vi for people to download and maybe add an extra page on basic vi commands in the little book that comes with the cd-rom jewel case? I do believe that it is a religious war rather than a technical one, and I agree with Paul that adding something new to Unix is ok, but not redefining Unix. True that bad things should be left in the past and new things should be used, as necessary, which is why we have X-Windows and so many other neat and fun things. Maybe it would be a good thing to make the boot, config editor on a minimal boot disk pico, but I wouldn't like it. It may be good for new users/experimenters, but not for old geeks like me. Much of the acceptance of free unix systems relies on the old folks accepting and using the system and it must be a system that they are comfortable and familiar with. Otherwise, get an entirely different os and don't call it Unix. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 24 06:27:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA02015 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 May 1996 06:27:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epprod.elsevier.co.uk (epprod.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA01992 for ; Fri, 24 May 1996 06:27:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk (snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]) by epprod.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA25077 for ; Fri, 24 May 1996 14:26:14 +0100 Received: from cadair.elsevier.co.uk (actually host cadair) by snowdon with SMTP (PP); Fri, 24 May 1996 14:26:02 +0100 Received: (from dpr@localhost) by cadair.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA01550; Fri, 24 May 1996 14:25:30 +0100 From: Paul Richards Message-Id: <199605241325.OAA01550@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> Subject: Re: editors To: mikee@sys8.wfc.com (Mike Eggleston) Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 14:25:29 +0100 (BST) Cc: stephen@dcs.rhbnc.ac.uk, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <9605241242.AA02226@sys8.wfc.com> from "Mike Eggleston" at May 24, 96 07:42:43 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I decided to get back into the thick of things this morning and resubscribed to all the FreeBSD mailing lists so now I'm reading chat I may as well get all religious about vi :-) I'm probably going to regret this decision when I return from holiday Tuesday and find 5000 messages in my mail box! In reply to Mike Eggleston who said > > >>>>> """ == " Stephen P Butler" writes: > > > On Thu, 23 May 1996, Paul Richards wrote: > >> Providing new tools to make life easier doesn't bother > >> me. Redefining what the normal unix environment is does bother me. > > > Paul, you're a bright guy, but sometimes we all need to let the past > > go, shed a tear for it, then fix the problems and move on. but vi isn't something I consider to be a relic of the past, I want it to stay. > Frankly, I like vi and have since I figured out how it was designed. > There has never been a faster editor. I agree that it is cryptic and > I tell each individual that I train on Unix that it is cryptic, but I > help them get through it and to become productive with whatever they > need to do. Exactly my feelings, it's a bugger to learn and it took me quite a while and I still don't know half of it but it's just so fast to do things with it. There are a minimal number of keystrokes required to do some quite complex things that are a real pain to try and do using less powerfull editors. The reason I always use it is not from some misguided sentimentality, I've used a lot of different editors on lots of different systems over the years and vi is the most powerfull one I've used so it's my editor of choice if it's available. > If it is an issue of providing another editor on the boot disk to make > things easier, why not simply provide an electronic cheat-sheet on vi > for people to download and maybe add an extra page on basic vi > commands in the little book that comes with the cd-rom jewel case? I don't have (and never have had) any problem with providing a simpler to use editor for installation, it'd be a bit much to expect someone to have to learn vi to install the system. > Maybe it would be a good thing to make the boot, config editor on a > minimal boot disk pico, but I wouldn't like it. It may be good for > new users/experimenters, but not for old geeks like me. Much of the > acceptance of free unix systems relies on the old folks accepting and > using the system and it must be a system that they are comfortable and > familiar with. Otherwise, get an entirely different os and don't call > it Unix. Precisely. -- Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor) Elsevier Science TIS online journal project. Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155 From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 24 06:58:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA06098 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 May 1996 06:58:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from platon.cs.rhbnc.ac.uk (dns1.rhbnc.ac.uk [134.219.44.52]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA06066 for ; Fri, 24 May 1996 06:58:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from platon (platon.cs.rhbnc.ac.uk [134.219.96.1]) by platon.cs.rhbnc.ac.uk (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA13325 ; Fri, 24 May 1996 14:59:13 +0100 Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 14:59:12 +0100 (BST) From: " Stephen P. Butler" X-Sender: stephen@platon To: Mike Eggleston cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: editors In-Reply-To: <9605241242.AA02226@sys8.wfc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 24 May 1996, Mike Eggleston wrote: [Bits have been snipped to save bandwidth] > Frankly, I like vi and have since I figured out how it was designed. > There has never been a faster editor. I agree that it is cryptic and > I tell each individual that I train on Unix that it is cryptic, but I > help them get through it and to become productive with whatever they > need to do. I'm currently at a University in the computer science department so I get to see somewhere around 60 people new to Unix each year. Even the people who are clued up before they get here find vi completely unintuitive. The general concensus of people I know is that the limit of vi knowledge you need is how to do the absolute basic editing and saving of a file so you can get a proper editor working. To be honest, why should this have to be so hard? Everybody can use pico to edit a file. It's easy - you type pico , all the keys work like you expect so you can just edit the file easily, and it tells you that you type ^O to save the file and ^X to exit. Surely even a seasoned vi hacker can manage that or does using vi do something to your brain like inhaling too much mercury vapour does? I'm assuming that someone that can use vi almost certainly knows what they're doing since they've had to suffer it's ordeal of initiation - if they want to use vi they'll know how to set it up. > If it is an issue of providing another editor on the boot disk to make > things easier, why not simply provide an electronic cheat-sheet on vi > for people to download and maybe add an extra page on basic vi > commands in the little book that comes with the cd-rom jewel case? There's only so much space in the little book and it can be more profitably used than wasting a page on the cryptic commands for an editor? Besides, even with the cheat sheet, unless you're really familiar with vi, you still get screwed by the modal behaviour. > I do believe that it is a religious war rather than a technical one, > and I agree with Paul that adding something new to Unix is ok, but not > redefining Unix. True that bad things should be left in the past and > new things should be used, as necessary, which is why we have > X-Windows and so many other neat and fun things. Unix is the kernel. Everything else is just an application, vi included (even Emacs, my current favorite editor). An editor doesn't define Unix, neither do any of the other application software typically shipped with a Unix system. vi will still be there for the people who wish to use it. Maybe it should just be marked as a deprecated feature like old system calls. Hell, if someone can come up with an editor that does a lot of the things Emacs does, doesn't require 16 Megs of core, run like a slug and have a learning curve steeper than the north face of the Eiger, I'd drop it right now. > Maybe it would be a good thing to make the boot, config editor on a > minimal boot disk pico, but I wouldn't like it. It may be good for > new users/experimenters, but not for old geeks like me. Are you saying that you can't use pico just long enough for you get vi going? I'm not going to let you convince me you're that stupid! I know you can do it - just try! If you can honestly not use pico to edit a file, I'll send you a virtual can of beer! > Much of the acceptance of free unix systems relies on the old folks > accepting and using the system and it must be a system that they are > comfortable and familiar with. Otherwise, get an entirely different > os and don't call it Unix. In the short to medium term that may be correct. But the old folks who are looking for that comfortable system will know how sort things out the way they want them. The first thing I do when I start out on a new machine is copy over all my old dotfiles and stuff and make the new machine work the same way as the old one. I'm sure most other people do that too. Unfortunatly, in the long term, we're all going to be dead. The question of continued Unix development must rest with the new users who probably haven't even been born yet. Why should they continue to use Unix? Given that the rate of progress is so fast, why should they spend time mastering cryptic things just to become a Unix wizard when they could spend their time doing more productive things. Please note in the above I'm using pico as an example. I don't know what the best easy to use editor would be given the practical constraints, but I've never even read the man page for pico and I can use it so it ain't too difficult to learn. Even the people here with only 1 brain cell and no computer experience whatsoever can use pico after 30 seconds of hand holding to tell them about control keys are. How long does it take someone to learn vi? It took me about 15 mins to learn how to load a file, make a few simple changes to it and save it out again and I'm hardly an average computer user. Besides, I've got to carry that useless information in my head when it could be used for storing more useful things, like how do design a better optimising compiler or something. No doubt, someday I'll give up using Emacs - it's got too many stupid commands and keystroke combinations to remember. I'm comfortable with it now, but I can see a time when I'll give it up. When I were a lad, we had BBC micros with Wordwise. Then there was Wordstar, then Wordperfect. Now I use LaTeX. Sure, changing between each one was painful at the time, but I gained more than I lost in the long term. CS people need to be flexible because things change so fast, and we need to prevent artificial barriers being erected so we can do things that are worth doing as efficiently and painlessly as possible. S. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------- |Stephen Butler |stephen@dcs.rhbnc.ac.uk | |Computer Science Undergraduate. | | |Royal Holloway, University of London.| | | | | ---------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 24 07:26:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA10198 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 May 1996 07:26:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epprod.elsevier.co.uk (epprod.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA10161 for ; Fri, 24 May 1996 07:25:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk (snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]) by epprod.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA26407 for ; Fri, 24 May 1996 15:24:50 +0100 Received: from cadair.elsevier.co.uk (actually host cadair) by snowdon with SMTP (PP); Fri, 24 May 1996 15:24:40 +0100 Received: (from dpr@localhost) by cadair.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA11414; Fri, 24 May 1996 15:23:57 +0100 From: Paul Richards Message-Id: <199605241423.PAA11414@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> Subject: Re: editors To: stephen@dcs.rhbnc.ac.uk (Stephen P. Butler) Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 15:23:57 +0100 (BST) Cc: mikee@sys8.wfc.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Stephen P. Butler" at May 24, 96 02:59:12 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Stephen P. Butler who said > > Unix is the kernel. Everything else is just an application, vi > included (even Emacs, my current favorite editor). An editor doesn't > define Unix, neither do any of the other application software > typically shipped with a Unix system. vi will still be there for the > people who wish to use it. Maybe it should just be marked as a > deprecated feature like old system calls. Hell, if someone can come You've really got it in for vi haven't you? You're fundamentally wrong about Unix being just the kernel. The environment does define Unix, go read some of the standards. > Are you saying that you can't use pico just long enough for you get vi > going? I'm not going to let you convince me you're that stupid! I > know you can do it - just try! If you can honestly not use pico to > edit a file, I'll send you a virtual can of beer! That's not the issue, the issue is whether the nature of unix should evolve along the lines of life being easier for newbies to the detriment of experienced users. You're not being very objective because you're arguing from the position of vi being an outdated and obsolete app and that's very, very far from the truth. A huge number of people still find it the editor of choice because it's basically very good at what it does. A huge number of people also hate it because it's moded but that's personal choice. The huge number of people who like vi expect it to be the default editor in any unix system because it always has been. > to be dead. The question of continued Unix development must rest > with the new users who probably haven't even been born yet. Why > should they continue to use Unix? Given that the rate of progress is > so fast, why should they spend time mastering cryptic things just to > become a Unix wizard when they could spend their time doing more productive > things. I think you're missing the fundamental point really. We don't (well I certainly don't) use unix because it's unix, I use it because I can actually get things done *far* more quickly with Unix than with any other OS I've ever used. If the day comes when a better OS exists I won't be slow in waving Unix goodbye but that hasn't happened yet and I don't expect it to happen anytime soon because unix has got the fundamentals right. If new users don't feel that unix is the best tool for them then they're free to use NT or whatever they prefer, I really wouldn't mind. I am going to mind if unix starts to change to make it more accessible and therefore becomes less usefull to me as a developer. > How long does it take someone to learn vi? It took me about 15 mins > to learn how to load a file, make a few simple changes to it and save > it out again and I'm hardly an average computer user. Besides, I've > got to carry that useless information in my head when it could be used > for storing more useful things, like how do design a better > optimising compiler or something. vi really isn't any harder to learn *properly* than emacs or pico. What you and most people have been talking about is how quickly you can do the *most minimal* tasks, such as change a few words and save the file. What's good about an editor like vi (or emacs) is that for serious development you need far, far more functionality and they provide it whereas the editors that take only a few minutes to learn the basics of do not. You have to invest time to learn how to use a complex tool but you reap the benefits later. -- Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor) Elsevier Science TIS online journal project. Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155 From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 24 10:28:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA07171 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 May 1996 10:28:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yucca.cs.odu.edu (root@yucca.cs.odu.edu [128.82.4.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA07159 for ; Fri, 24 May 1996 10:28:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.cs.odu.edu (bowden@hurricane.cs.odu.edu [128.82.4.23]) by yucca.cs.odu.edu (8.7.3/8.6.4) with SMTP id NAA12351; Fri, 24 May 1996 13:24:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 13:19:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Paul Richards cc: "Stephen P. Butler" , mikee@sys8.wfc.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: editors In-Reply-To: <199605241423.PAA11414@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 24 May 1996, Paul Richards wrote: > number of people also hate it because it's moded but that's personal choice. > The huge number of people who like vi expect it to be the default editor in > any unix system because it always has been. ed is the only editor guarateed to be there. I use vi, and emacs both, couldn't live without either, but they don't have to be there. > vi really isn't any harder to learn *properly* than emacs or pico. What you > and most people have been talking about is how quickly you can do the > *most minimal* tasks, such as change a few words and save the file. What's > good about an editor like vi (or emacs) is that for serious development you > need far, far more functionality and they provide it whereas the editors that > take only a few minutes to learn the basics of do not. You have to invest > time to learn how to use a complex tool but you reap the benefits later. No, it's no more difficult than Wordperfect, or Word, and their cryptic calls. New users weren't born with knowledge of any of it. WP and Word at least have help functions, vi has no such thing. Pico is a piece of cake. Let the newbies use it by default. When it doesn't suit the task, they will move on to vi, emacs, jed, jot, whatever, but their is no reason to dump them in an unfamiliar, hostile environment, with no chance right from the start. Jamie I have my finger on the pulse of the planet. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 24 14:33:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA00272 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 May 1996 14:33:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eac.iafrica.com (h196-7-192-138.iafrica.com [196.7.192.138]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA00253; Fri, 24 May 1996 14:33:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rnordier@localhost) by eac.iafrica.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA02320; Fri, 24 May 1996 23:31:42 +0200 From: Robert Nordier Message-Id: <199605242131.XAA02320@eac.iafrica.com> Subject: Re: editors, vi, documentation for newusers To: ANDRSN@HOOVER.STANFORD.EDU (Annelise Anderson) Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 23:31:40 +0200 (SAT) Cc: freebsd-doc@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <01I51YO5Y39U006OBL@HOOVER.STANFORD.EDU> from "Annelise Anderson" at May 23, 96 06:14:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Annelise Anderson wrote: > > Given the discussion that has been going on here about vi and making > things easier for new users, you might be interested in a guide I > wrote for people new to both freebsd *and* unix. > > John Fieber has been working on integrating this into the handbook > and I have asked him not include it in the sections on "unix basics" > because it is not that, nor do I have the capability to contribute > to that; it is rather a guide on a few essential tasks and some > suggestions on navigation and sources of information that will help > new users get acquainted with the system faster. It is also not a > guide on how to configure the system in any way. > > I have sent it to a few people who have indicated that they know > little unix and they seem to have found it helpful (including the > section on vi). It also includes a simple description of getting > ports from the cdrom. In all areas it could be expanded, but the > point is to give people enough to get along, not everything at once. > > John and I agree that the section on the ls commands should use > standard unix commands and not the aliases, which is the only > major change I think we are contemplating. > > My only qualification for writing this is the insight of a user > new to both freebsd and unix not very long ago, which is about all > I have to offer right now. > > Here it is (18k). > > [...] This seems a good, useful piece of documentation. I just gave a copy to someone who has recently made the transition from another OS. And he came back with a couple of "Gosh, I didn't know BSD could do that" responses. (Using ScrollLock to recover what has scrolled off the screen, along with script(1), particularly impressed him.) On the whole, it almost seems a pity that this piece is going to be worked into the handbook. For beginners, the handbook is indispensable as a reference, but mostly it isn't really light reading. Maybe a few short pieces like this, kept separate somewhere in /usr/share/doc, would make a friendly intro for new users. -- Robert Nordier From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 24 18:45:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA27025 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 May 1996 18:45:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from platon.cs.rhbnc.ac.uk (dns1.rhbnc.ac.uk [134.219.44.52]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA27020 for ; Fri, 24 May 1996 18:45:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from platon (platon.cs.rhbnc.ac.uk [134.219.96.1]) by platon.cs.rhbnc.ac.uk (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA22962 ; Sat, 25 May 1996 02:46:07 +0100 Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 02:46:07 +0100 (BST) From: " Stephen P. Butler" X-Sender: stephen@platon To: Michael Smith cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: editors In-Reply-To: <199605250139.LAA19046@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 25 May 1996, Michael Smith wrote: > Yeah, and? That's _how_ Ultrix is installed. Just try remembering which > Dectape the file you want is on (or how to rewind a TK50 before you've got > 'mt' off it 8) Don't you program the I/O port directly in binary in those circumstances using something really primative like a nice set of toggle switches? :-). I don't actually know this though since I'm too young :_-(. Woo! TK50 tape drives. I don't suppose anybody has a working TK50 tape drive hanging around that they're using for propping a door open or something?... I've got a couple of IBM PS/2 model 60s that would make great replacements :-). We've got a VAX (think it's a 6550 or something) in the department that's just crying for a working tape drive so I can cart it home on a low loader and install Ultrix 4.3 on it! Hell, no doubt it might even have several Megs of memory in it. Incidently, one of the lecturers here is into computing history and we had all sorts of ancient machinary lying around the place. Anybody heard of a Digico or something? Anyway, since I must continue this tragic one-upmanship, I was thinking of writing a boot program on a tape using a magnet and only a pencil and a very long length of listing paper with which to perform the necessary calculations. I figure if I can do it, it ought to become the new Unix initiation rite! Stephen. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------- |Stephen Butler |stephen@dcs.rhbnc.ac.uk | |Computer Science Undergraduate. | | |Royal Holloway, University of London.| | | | | ---------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 25 01:21:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA17156 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 25 May 1996 01:21:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA17146 for ; Sat, 25 May 1996 01:21:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id KAA03309; Sat, 25 May 1996 10:21:26 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA02963; Sat, 25 May 1996 10:21:26 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id KAA25950; Sat, 25 May 1996 10:09:54 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199605250809.KAA25950@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Adduser program in C To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 10:09:53 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: michaelv@HeadCandy.com, lithium@cia-g.com, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <2112.833007599@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "May 24, 96 11:59:59 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Better move this to -chat... As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > I was with you right up through the awk, sed, sh, grep, cut.. You > lost me at PERL. :-) Perl (not PERL -- no, that's not UNIX :) is the logical consequence of awk, sed, sh, and grep... > P.S. I'm already well on record as saying that PERL is the anti-christ > of computer languages, so I won't belabor that point here.. :-) > Suffice it to say that I find PERL's syntax and structure highly > objectionable. Give me a more structured language like TCL or LISP > any day.. The old argumentation war. Nope. I know a fair amount of Perl (and would have had a hard time implementing some of my recent paywork in something else than Perl). I'm in the process of learning Tcl (and Tk), for various reasons, finally. Both bear two entirely different concepts in mind. Perl is a programming language (not even an interpreter -- it's a compiled scripting language), with a fairly complex grammar that always makes me wonder how Larry Wall did ever manage to write a parser for it. The language is rather well-thought however (you can express anything in _your_ way, as opposed to have the language dictating you its way -- see the ``if (cond) {statement}'' vs. ``statement if cond'' vs. ``cond && statement''), and it's damn fast. Tcl, on the other hand, is a fairly minimalistic approach, something like FORTH. It's not even a programming language, but rather an interpreter only (according to Ousterhout), and you can have it interpret almost everything you want. You can even replace the builtin control words (`while' etc.) by your own definitions if you want, since it doesn't have a grammar. This gives a great deal on flexibility. It's slow due to being interpreted, but with the speeds of modern CPUs, this ain't a big problem for many tasks, and for those where it matters, you benefit from another feature: you can write parts in C, or embed it into a C program. So finally, as Michael wrote in another followup: there's no such thing like The Ultimate Tool For Everything. Learn how to use the tools, and decide yourself which one to use on occasion. But: _ignoring_ the modern tools is certainly a fatal decision. It's like ignoring C since you happen to know assembler that good... -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 25 01:51:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA20053 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 25 May 1996 01:51:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA20034; Sat, 25 May 1996 01:51:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id KAA03686; Sat, 25 May 1996 10:51:35 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA03121; Sat, 25 May 1996 10:51:34 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id KAA26162; Sat, 25 May 1996 10:29:31 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199605250829.KAA26162@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Adduser program in C To: dima@FreeBSD.org (Dima Ruban) Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 10:29:30 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: michaelv@HeadCandy.com, lithium@cia-g.com, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199605250814.BAA16824@freefall.freebsd.org> from Dima Ruban at "May 25, 96 01:14:18 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (Also moved to -chat) > First: this is not small tool. > Second: this is slow tool. > Third: this is not standard unix tool. Fourth: `Second' and `Third' are wrong. :) Perl is certainly one of the fastest scripting languages. Perl is getting more and more standard, it's not only FreeBSD that ships with it installed by default, or at least readily available on the intallation medium. (Of course, the last is also true for Tcl.) > Perl is one of those tools. > > I can't agree. But you fail to explain your reasons for disagreeing. ;) I've seen more than one person finally pick my advise, and use Perl instead of sh/awk/grep/... for more complex projects. Mind you, these are people who know their tools well, my colleague is in Unix since the 2BSD era. However, shell is a rather poor programming language in several respects (have you ever seen a shell quotation orgy?), so for more complex tasks, learning something else pays off quickly. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 25 16:05:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA19031 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 25 May 1996 16:05:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dima@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA19014; Sat, 25 May 1996 16:05:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605252305.QAA19014@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Adduser program in C To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 16:04:59 -0700 (PDT) Cc: dima@FreeBSD.org, michaelv@HeadCandy.com, lithium@cia-g.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199605250829.KAA26162@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at May 25, 96 10:29:30 am From: dima@FreeBSD.org (Dima Ruban) X-Class: Fast Organization: HackerDome X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch writes: > > (Also moved to -chat) > > > First: this is not small tool. > > Second: this is slow tool. > > Third: this is not standard unix tool. > > Fourth: `Second' and `Third' are wrong. :) Don't think so. > Perl is certainly one of the fastest scripting languages. fastest scripting language != fastest programming language. I don't think perl script is going to be faster when the same C program. About scripting language ... One of my clients had chat script for his WWW server written on perl. Standard load average on this machine was 40-70!!!!! And now it keeps under 10 only becasue I wrote this script on C. > Perl is getting more and more standard, it's not only FreeBSD that > ships with it installed by default, or at least readily available on > the intallation medium. getting standard != standard (again) Maybe some day, when computer will have lotsa memory and at least 10 times faster CPUs, maybe then perl will become standard or something. > (Of course, the last is also true for Tcl.) > > > Perl is one of those tools. > > > > I can't agree. > > But you fail to explain your reasons for disagreeing. ;) well, from you side - maybe yes, but not from mine. I don't realy want to argue. I don't make any sence. Because I don't realy think, my explanations to you or your explanations to me will change something. For you pelr is cool, because you can write program w/o any problems in notime. For me it's bad, because I DO care about how fast it is going to work and how many system resources it will requre. That's the point. > > > I've seen more than one person finally pick my advise, and use Perl > instead of sh/awk/grep/... for more complex projects. Mind you, these > are people who know their tools well, my colleague is in Unix since > the 2BSD era. However, shell is a rather poor programming language in > several respects (have you ever seen a shell quotation orgy?), so for > more complex tasks, learning something else pays off quickly. > > -- > cheers, J"org > > joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE > Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) > -- dima From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 25 19:34:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA27425 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 25 May 1996 19:34:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA27420; Sat, 25 May 1996 19:34:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id TAA21289 ; Sat, 25 May 1996 19:34:51 -0700 Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA22764; Sat, 25 May 1996 20:33:29 -0600 Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 20:33:29 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199605260233.UAA22764@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: csdayton@midway.uchicago.edu Cc: "Matthew N. Dodd" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, Dima Ruban Subject: Re: Adduser program in C In-Reply-To: <199605260210.VAA23555@woodlawn.uchicago.edu> References: <199605260210.VAA23555@woodlawn.uchicago.edu> Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > cases. > > i do not think that this is where the hit is, but I just might be wrong. > I think the problem is that perl does no real memory management and > grows and grows and grows and grows and grows. Not true. If the malloc that perl uses doesn't return memory back to the OS, then of course it won't get smaller, but that's a function of *all* programs, not just perl. Perl happens to trigger it because it does *exactly* what you asked for, which could mean 'slurping' an entire file into memory if you don't know what you are doing. In any case, the Perl vs. C++ arguement is religion, so I've moved this to chat. Nate