From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 1 01:36:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA08436 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 1 Dec 1996 01:36:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from wiley.csusb.edu (wiley.csusb.edu [139.182.2.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA08428 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 1996 01:36:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wwong@localhost) by wiley.csusb.edu (8.8.3/8.6.11) id BAA28304 for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 1 Dec 1996 01:35:51 -0800 (PST) From: William Wong Message-Id: <199612010935.BAA28304@wiley.csusb.edu> Subject: Re: Laws of Physics (was Re: SCSI A/V drives) To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 01:35:50 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Wes Peters writes: > If you stick around as long as I have, you eventually get to write > your own job title so you can impress friends and colleagues, and > stump everyone who doesn't get it. Jordan was highly amused by mine > and that of my partner at Comdex last week. Unfortunately, he didn't > get to meet the third member of our party, Mark A. Matthews, who is > titled "Evil Genius, Acme Rocket and Stormdoor Co." > Just curious... What were your titles? > You haven't lurked here long enough, or you would know that Terry, > Jordan, and I comprise the all-knowing, all-seeing triumvirate of > freebsd-chat. We are the init, swapper, and pagedaemon of this > list. ;^) Mostly we just look for invitations to rant about our pet > peeves and prove to each other (everyone in FreeBSD-Land) how superior > we are to mere mortals, such as DOS losers and Windows Weenies. > > We long ago delegated -questions to Doug White, because he gives more > coherent answers than we do. ;^) > Well, in this case, I'll stop cc'ing to each individual and just send the questions and replies to the altar (chat list). ;). Sorry about the wasted bandwidth. William T. Wong Network Analyst, Assistant Cal State University, San Bernardino Phone: (909) 880-7281 email: wwong@wiley.csusb.edu From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 1 04:31:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA13363 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 1 Dec 1996 04:31:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA13282 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 1996 04:30:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA15536; Sun, 1 Dec 1996 04:28:35 -0800 (PST) To: Terry Lambert cc: wwong@wiley.csusb.edu, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SCSI A/V drives In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 27 Nov 1996 17:20:17 MST." <199611280020.RAA29436@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Sun, 01 Dec 1996 04:28:35 -0800 Message-ID: <15532.849443315@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Apparently, the producer "cooked the books" on the movie, and could > not go for another movie without opening his crime to scrutiny. This subject is more or less dead now so I won't prolong it, but just out of general curiousity - why couldn't they simply find another producer? If you can swap directors or even major stars for sequels, it certainly seems odd indeed that you can't swap something as imminently exchangable as a producer. He's just the guy who comes up with the bucks, right? I've never heard of a producer having an exclusive contract. ;-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 1 16:12:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA08137 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 1 Dec 1996 16:12:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from ilms.nla.gov.au (ilms.nla.gov.au [192.102.239.30]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA08129 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 1996 16:12:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from gadget.nla.gov.au (cmakin@gadget.nla.gov.au [203.4.201.52]) by ilms.nla.gov.au (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA80018 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 1996 11:08:51 +1100 Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 11:12:50 +1100 (EST) From: Carl Makin To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Differential vs. Standard In-Reply-To: <199611292134.WAA27238@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 29 Nov 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > Yep, you need a differential controller, and differential devices. However a differential controller can handle non-differential devices but you can't mix and match them on the bus. Carl. -- Carl Makin (VK1KCM) C.Makin@nla.gov.au 'Work +61 6 262 1576' "Speaking for myself only!" 'If you want to make your spouse pay attention to what you say... Talk in your sleep!' From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 1 22:14:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA04226 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 1 Dec 1996 22:14:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from csd.cs.technion.ac.il (csd.cs.technion.ac.il [132.68.32.8]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA04221 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 1996 22:13:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nadav@localhost) by csd.cs.technion.ac.il (8.6.11/8.6.10) id IAA07245; Mon, 2 Dec 1996 08:13:22 +0200 Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 08:13:21 +0200 (IST) From: Nadav Eiron X-Sender: nadav@csd To: Carl Makin cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Differential vs. Standard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, Carl Makin wrote: > > On Fri, 29 Nov 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > > > Yep, you need a differential controller, and differential devices. > > However a differential controller can handle non-differential devices but > you can't mix and match them on the bus. Don't think so. You may have a controller that may be set up to be either differential or SE, but a differential device (controller or disk) can only be on the same bus with other differential devices (or a signal converter). > > Carl. > > -- > Carl Makin (VK1KCM) > C.Makin@nla.gov.au 'Work +61 6 262 1576' "Speaking for myself only!" > 'If you want to make your spouse pay attention to what you say... > Talk in your sleep!' > Nadav From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 2 05:50:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA21874 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Dec 1996 05:50:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA21867 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 1996 05:50:53 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Lehey Received: from freebie.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0vUYlf-000QrtC; Mon, 2 Dec 96 14:50 MET Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.de (8.8.3/8.6.12) id OAA00898; Mon, 2 Dec 1996 14:44:20 +0100 (MET) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Message-Id: <199612021344.OAA00898@freebie.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Device Driver Writing. In-Reply-To: <199611260804.JAA09865@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Nov 26, 96 09:04:00 am" To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 14:44:20 +0100 (MET) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch writes: > ``All documentation files usually end up in .c.'' (unknown source) Huh? That's a C source which hasn't been passed through the preprocessor. Everybody knows that. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 2 07:12:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA24910 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Dec 1996 07:12:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from obie.softweyr.com (slc49.modem.xmission.com [204.228.136.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA24905 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 1996 07:12:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id IAA10517; Mon, 2 Dec 1996 08:17:42 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 08:17:42 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199612021517.IAA10517@obie.softweyr.com> From: Wes Peters To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Laws of Physics (was Re: SCSI A/V drives) In-Reply-To: <199612010935.BAA28304@wiley.csusb.edu> References: <199612010935.BAA28304@wiley.csusb.edu> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Wes Peters writes: % If you stick around as long as I have, you eventually get to write % your own job title so you can impress friends and colleagues, and % stump everyone who doesn't get it. Jordan was highly amused by mine % and that of my partner at Comdex last week. Unfortunately, he didn't % get to meet the third member of our party, Mark A. Matthews, who is % titled "Evil Genius, Acme Rocket and Stormdoor Co." William Wong writes: > Just curious... What were your titles? Me: Director of Hacking (true, in the unix sense of the word) and my partner Jody: Chief Mechanical Officer (he keeps the machines running and does most of the network cable stringing, etc.). Our other partners haven't yet come up with titles, so we haven't yet bothered to print cards for them. ;^) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 2 11:15:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA06653 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Dec 1996 11:15:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA06627 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 1996 11:15:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA18625 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 1996 20:15:07 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id UAA24338 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 2 Dec 1996 20:14:35 +0100 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.3/keltia-uucp-2.9) id TAA00488; Mon, 2 Dec 1996 19:43:53 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 19:43:53 +0100 From: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: COMDEX trip report.. References: <1082.849412669@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.52 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#2738 In-Reply-To: <1082.849412669@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Nov 30, 1996 19:57:49 -0800 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Jordan K. Hubbard: > Actually, WC no longer sells T-shirts and will not be reprinting any > more, except for very limited promotional use (and even that's still > being debated). I thought they would be more successful. Too Bad. > The coffee mugs are also being discontinued and won't > be sold after the current batch runs out. The breakage factor is so > high that we end up sending 3 out for every one that arrives, and as a I understand, 6 out of the 14 I ordered last time were broken... -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #29: Sun Nov 24 16:05:46 MET 1996 From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 2 14:29:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA18360 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Dec 1996 14:29:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from antares.aero.org (antares.aero.org [130.221.192.46]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA18355 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 1996 14:29:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from anpiel.aero.org (anpiel.aero.org [130.221.196.66]) by antares.aero.org (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA16937; Mon, 2 Dec 1996 14:28:25 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199612022228.OAA16937@antares.aero.org> To: Terry Lambert Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), wwong@wiley.csusb.edu, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SCSI A/V drives In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 27 Nov 1996 16:20:17 PST." <199611280020.RAA29436@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 14:28:19 -0800 From: "Mike O'Brien" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In re: Buckaroo Banzai I figure Buckaroo Banzai is the official fictional creator of FreeBSD so this definitely comes under the purview of 'chat'. > Peter Weller, John Lithgow, and Christopher Lloyd all said they > were interested in making another movie, and would drop anything > they were doing to do it. Now that's good news. Of course whether they'd actually do it is another matter but... > Apparently, the producer "cooked the books" on the movie, and could > not go for another movie without opening his crime to scrutiny. > > So another movie was never made. I heard a different story from a studio rep. His tale runs like this: After the picture got the green light but before it was completed there was an executive shakeup at the studio. The new head of publicity hated the film. And, there was a joker in the deck: the surprise sleeper hit of that summer, "Revenge of the Nerds." He had all these theater owners calling him (he said) saying, "Please please please don't take this phenomenal moneymaker out of our theaters and make us show this weirdo sci-fi film that nobody wants to see!" So he didn't. Buckaroo Banzai was released in the contractual minimum of 50 theaters nationwide and was buried by the studio. The composer of the film's score was all bent out of shape, because that wonderful tune over the film's closing credits, THE tune that spells "BB" to everybody, is the most popular tune he ever wrote, and he couldn't get the rights out of the studio to release a film score album. Of course once those theaters got the film, what they did with it varied. In Harvard Square, for example, it ran first run for six months, then went to a midnight cult slot for about four more, then back to first run. It was weird at the midnight show as the audience gradually felts its way to a "Rocky Horror" sensibility, coming up with stock responses to various points in the film. Mike O'Brien From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 2 16:26:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA23904 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Dec 1996 16:26:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA23882; Mon, 2 Dec 1996 16:26:27 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199612030026.QAA23882@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: EurOpen.SE: FreeBSD Presentation, trip report To: freebsd-hackers, freebsd-chat Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 16:26:27 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This is a (belated) trip report of my FreeBSD presentation at EurOpen.SE. There are several sections. The first does the "reporter's questions": who?, where?, when?, and what?. The second are some observations on making presentations. And the final section approximates some of my spoken remarks. The slides from the presentation are available on freefall. ftp://freefall.freebsd.org/pub/incoming/sweden.slides.ps ================================================================= On October 24th and 25th, EurOpen.SE (the Swedish National Unix Users' Group) held its annual conference. The topic for discussion was "Free Unix as your Internet Server -- the best alternative?". The conference was held at the Grand Hotel Saltsjobaden, located approximately 15 miles east of Stockholm, Sweden. Fifty-three people attended the conference, mainly from commercial companies rather than universities or not-for-profit organizations. Attendees included two people from The United States Information Service based at the US embassy in Stockholm and two from the Swedish Department of Defense. Bjorn Olofsson of the Lulea Universitet, site of the FreeBSD mirror in Sweden, also attended. The program included speakers representing FreeBSD, NetBSD, BSDI, Linux (two presentations, one on Debian and the other on RedHat/Slackware/Yggdrsil), SCO, Sun, Microsoft, and Tele2/Swipnet (the largest network access provider in Sweden). Each speaker had a 90 minute time slot. The Microsoft representative was ill and was not able to participate. His time was divided among myself speaking about the Hint benchmark (http://www.scl.ameslab.gov/scl/HINT/HINT.html), the Debian Linux speaker, Lars Wirzenius speaking about the Linux release mechanism and Magnus Redin of Signum Support AB speaking in Swedish. The first speaker was Olle Wallner of Tele2/Swipnet. Fortunately, I was the second speaker, so the audience was still fresh and mine was the first Unix talk. This is a tremendous advantage, all the other Unix speakers were forced to distinguish their product from FreeBSD. Hence, we received a lot of unexpected publicity as each speaker in turn mentioned their differences relative to FreeBSD. I stressed three characteristics of FreeBSD above all else: Networking Performance, Stability, and Support for the user community. The presentation addressed a range of issues. Due to the 90 minute time limit, several issues were not addressed as throughly as they deserved but rather mentioned as asides. First, a (partial) list of issues that I did not address in detail: laptop support, internationalization, and loadable kernel modules. To support our claim to networking performance, I described the workload and hardware configuration of wcarchive.cdrom.com. The last section contains this information. Those of you familiar with wcarchive may wish to skip that paragraph. I described the attention to detail and concern for quality that the core team and the developers of FreeBSD have demonstrated over the last three years. Our dedication to producing a "truly great operating system" and unwillingness to ship code that is anything less than the best we can make, it convinced the audience that FreeBSD is a system to be considered for any task that may arise. After all, many of us are professional software developers. We don't write FreeBSD to prove anything or to feed ourselves and our families, but rather to satisfy a desire to excel, to work in an environment without managers that speak of profits and deadlines. I avoided controversy and direct comparisons with other operating systems. When directly asked about "FreeBSD vs Product X", I replied that I had come to talk about FreeBSD and would be glad to discuss comparisons after the talk, but not as part of the presentation. Nonetheless, I maintained that the hardware available to the FreeBSD user community is remarkably fast and inexpensive, even though quality does vary greatly. One should choose carefully and not be reluctant to spend more for better equipment. After all, equipment from a hardware manufacturer that ships Unix would cost far more than the hardware required by FreeBSD. In response to a question from the audience regarding the perceived slowness of PC clones, I allowed myself one denigrated remark about Microsoft: "The hardware is fast and capable, its just the popular software that......." Now comes the hard part, talking about what I did well without being too modest or swinging too much the other direction. I displayed an level of enthusiasm, sincerity and confidence regarding FreeBSD that was compelling. A number of people came up to me after the presentation and characterized the my work as "excellent." Indeed, one of the other speakers said he was jealous of what I had accomplished. A number of commericial software developers may be switching to FreeBSD. One example is the compary that displays messages on illuminated signs in the subway and train stations. The messages are customized for each train when necessary. This system may be converted to FreeBSD in all new installations. The next paragraphs are my notes on the other operating systems presentations. NetBSD, Charles M. Hannum: NetBSD has been ported to 16 platforms, some of which I have never heard of before. The project goals are to field a complete, stable, portable, standards based system. But there is no ports tree or ports/packages mechanism. The only sections of source code that contain machine dependencies are limited portions of libc and the kernel. NetBSD sees itself a the follow-on the the Computer Science Research Group (CSRG) of the University of California at Berkeley. As such, they intend to provide improvements in the quality of the code, and the level of abstraction in the code, as well as create THE reference BSD implementation. Charles provided a list of NetBSD firsts, such as the first BSD Unix on to support shared libraries. NetBSD provides binary compatibility for BSDI, FreeBSD, HP-UX, Interactive, Linux, SCO and others. Their plan it make one release a year; the release engineering so too complex given their number of platforms to prepare releases more frequently. NetBSD is made up of a core team and portmasters. The core team has the same functions as ours and the portmasters are responisble for applications (which does not jive well with the statement that there is not ports/packages mechanism, but such are my notes) The next big step for NetBSD is to move the kernel to a synchronous thread model. Each interrupt will have its own thread. The goal is to make the kernel much more like programming any multi-threaded program rather than the upper/lower model that we have now. Additional goals are: SMP, journaling on file systems (not the same as logfs), ELF, and kernel support of user threads. Debian Linux, Lars Wirzenius: Linux is one kernel, but many distributions and a least a couple C libraries. The kernel is controlled by Linus Torvalds but the distributions are independent efforts, each is structured as the distributor sees fit. Linux now has a unified buffer cache and virtual memory system. Linux is available for x86, dec alpha, sparc and mc68k, but only the x86 version is stable. Linux has replaced fork(2) with the system call clone(2), the Linux version of fork(2) is actually a wrapper around clone(2). clone(2) allows selective sharing of resources between the parent and child processes. Linux has one release a year, but allows complete access to the development code. The majority of people run the development code rather than any official release. Debian is very proud of its package system, which is quite powerful. It recognized a number of dependency levels, from "must-have" to "suggested" additions to the package that is being installed. BSDI, Peter Hakansson of Volvo, Data Department: Peter spoke in Swedish and so I understood very little of his presentation. The presentation was low key, so low key that at times I could not hear him. I sat at the back of the room. SCO, David Gurr of SCO Great Britain: SCO is moving to a 64-bit architecture, the Gemini chip, also known as the P7. This chip is a joint development effort of Intel and Hewlett-Packard. SCO supports clustering of workstations as a method of providing reliability. SCO feels that it owns the point-of-sale market and plans to expand its presence in this area. SCO wishes to push of a unified Unix, now that SCO is receiving royalties from all SVR4 and SVR3 versions of Unix, except Sun, they feel that they are in a position to "strongly encourage" others to move with them "as to what is and what is not" Unix. The presentation was done in PowerPoint and presented using a laptop computer and a projector gizmo that plugged into the external video DB-15 connector of the laptop. The result was aesthetically unappealing--just too dark to read easily. RedHat/Slackware/Yggdrsil, Magnus Redin of Signum Support AB: Spoke in Swedish. Slides handwritten on location. I have no idea what he said ;( Sun Microsystems: Also in Swedish, again I did not understand enough to comment. Microsoft: The Microsoft representative fell ill and was not able to come to the conference to make his presentation. This opened up a 90 minute hole in the schedule for the afternoon of the second day, October 25th. The hole had to be filled. The summary panel discussion was scheduled for 4:00pm and the representative of Tele2/Swipnet would not return until then. General comments on Swedes, the hotel and other things: The accommodations were excellent. Those of you who have not stayed in a first-rate European hotel should find the opportunity to do so. No hotel that I know of in the United States compares. One example, the bathroom towel racks have an internal heating element--before stepping into the shower, turn on the heater and the thick, plush towels are wonderfully warm by the time that you finish showering. The Swedes are a tall people, average of six foot, 180 cm, and so all the furniture and fixtures are sized accordingly. My feet did not hang off the end of the bed ;). The Grand Hotel at Saltzjobaden is a large stately structure, situated on the water with a comfortable marina and beautiful island just offshore. There is a small bridge to the island. Access to Stockholm from the Baltic Sea is impeded by the largest archipelago in Europe. A wonderful place to sail and gunk-hole. (gunk-hole: to sail from one anchorage to another each day doing a little fishing, touring and bird watching along the way....sorta ;) Swedes study English, both written and spoken, in school from the third grade till 12th. The audience was very comfortable speaking in and listening to English (Thank goodness given my facility in Swedish. Vowels are different from English. An umlaut-o is not the same as a plain `o'. This is important when looking for a hotel located on the square called Hrtoget in Stockholm. Substituting a regular `o' is a very different word ;) Needless to say, I spoke in English. ================================================================= Some general notes on making presentations: practice, out loud, in front of people, repeatedly. Know your material cold. Have a set of anecdotes that you can use to enliven the presentation and bring them out as needed. Don't try to cover everything, the presentation becomes either a laundry list or confusing swirl of items. Pick a theme and stick with it; return to the theme several times. Get the first presentation slot or at least the first slot of the second day. The first slot after lunch is tough; the second slot is a disaster. People that are digesting are prone to fall asleep in the middle of your talk. Eat lightly before speaking, but only lightly, not foods that are high in refined sugar content. Take a glass of water up to the podium. Speaking for 90 minutes without water will reduce your voice to a hoarse croak. (I did remember to take a glass of water with me.) Print out the notes along with the slides using the article format of the LaTeX seminar package. That way the notes are easier to use (both the slide and my notes are visible at the same time.) Highlight (either in color marker or some other highly visible manner) those items that are most important to discuss for each slide. Before beginning the seque into the next slide, take several seconds to review those points and make sure that each one has been addressed. ================================================================= The following paragraphs are an approximation of what i actually said to the audience on several issues: network performance, stability, and user support. These paragraphs are not exhaustive, rather indicative. This ftp/http server provides 70GB of data to the Internet, day in and day out. Its record day was 115GB. That averages 2.5 Megabytes/second during the day and 1.3 Megabytes/second all night long. During that 24 hour period, the run queue never exceeded 3.00 and interactive response on the console was snappy. The machine's output is limited by the ability of the Internet to accept data. US West, one of the baby bells, has chosen FreeBSD as the operating system to use in their Internet Service Provider business segment called !nterprise. US West, a $10 Billion dollar company with more than $1.2 Billion in profit, chose FreeBSD because of its stability. Due to the regulations that govern telephone companies, US West is forced to create a significant number of server sites. There are three sites in Minnesota alone. Each site has two machines, one provides news, the other does everything else. Many sites are "dark sites." No one is there to attend to reboot a crashed computer. The machines *must* stay up, otherwise someone will have to travel to the site to reboot the box. Flying into Fargo, North Dakota in February is not fun. FreeBSD maintains the principle of "least surprise" for our users. For example, shared libraries are phased out slowly, rather than disappearing suddenly with the next release. TCP/IP extensions can be enabled or disable easily by editing /etc/sysconfig. Using CVS, we can retrieve from the source code repository the code same code that any FreeBSD is using. Users often receive answers to their questions within 30 minutes from the time that they send mail to the FreeBSD mailing lists. No trouble tickets. No 800 numbers. Just answers. Should you ever find a problem with FreeBSD, please use send-pr(1) to send a problem report to us. These problem reports are logged in a database and retained until resolved. Problems that are mentioned informally in the mailing lists may be lost or remain unresolved. The mailing lists are not a substitute for the send-pr(1) command and the GNATS problem reporting and tracking system. ================================================================= jmb -- Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD--4.4BSD Unix for PC clones, source included. http://www.freebsd.org/ PGP 2.6.2 Fingerprint: 31 57 41 56 06 C1 40 13 C5 1C E3 E5 DC 62 0E FB From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 2 17:00:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA25672 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Dec 1996 17:00:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.50.29]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA25667; Mon, 2 Dec 1996 17:00:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA03012; Mon, 2 Dec 1996 16:53:49 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199612030053.QAA03012@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: EurOpen.SE: FreeBSD Presentation, trip report Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 16:53:49 -0800 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 2 Dec 1996 16:26:27 -0800 (PST) "Jonathan M. Bresler" wrote: > core team and portmasters. The core team has the same functions as > ours and the portmasters are responisble for applications (which does > not jive well with the statement that there is not ports/packages > mechanism, but such are my notes) That's almost completely wrong... The portmasters are responsible for the individual ports of NetBSD ... NetBSD/i386, NetBSD/hp300, NetBSD/powerpc, NetBSD/alpha, NetBSD/amiga, etc. In the NetBSD world, `ports' has an entirely different meaning than in the FreeBSD world. Having read Charles' slides before he presented them, I know he didn't say that the portmasters were responsible for `applications'. There are, however, other key developers that are responsible for various application programs that are shipped with NetBSD (i.e. BIND, Sendmail, dhcpd, vi, etc.) Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: 408.866.1912 NAS: M/S 258-6 Work: 415.604.0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: 415.428.6939 From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 2 19:00:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA02635 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Dec 1996 19:00:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA02612; Mon, 2 Dec 1996 19:00:40 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199612030300.TAA02612@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: EurOpen.SE: FreeBSD Presentation, trip report To: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 19:00:39 -0800 (PST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199612030053.QAA03012@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> from "Jason Thorpe" at Dec 2, 96 04:53:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jason Thorpe wrote: > > On Mon, 2 Dec 1996 16:26:27 -0800 (PST) > "Jonathan M. Bresler" wrote: > > > core team and portmasters. The core team has the same functions as > > ours and the portmasters are responisble for applications (which does > > not jive well with the statement that there is not ports/packages > > mechanism, but such are my notes) > > That's almost completely wrong... The portmasters are responsible > for the individual ports of NetBSD ... NetBSD/i386, NetBSD/hp300, > NetBSD/powerpc, NetBSD/alpha, NetBSD/amiga, etc. In the NetBSD world, > `ports' has an entirely different meaning than in the FreeBSD world. > > Having read Charles' slides before he presented them, I know he didn't > say that the portmasters were responsible for `applications'. There > are, however, other key developers that are responsible for various > application programs that are shipped with NetBSD (i.e. BIND, Sendmail, > dhcpd, vi, etc.) ah....thank you. my notes were a little blurred in that section. jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 2 20:02:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA05467 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Dec 1996 20:02:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from guardian.fortress.org (fortress.org [199.84.158.128]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA05462; Mon, 2 Dec 1996 20:02:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from andrew@localhost) by guardian.fortress.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA14173; Mon, 2 Dec 1996 23:03:46 -0500 Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 23:03:45 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Webster Reply-To: andrew@pubnix.net To: Frank Seltzer cc: "David S. Miller" , jkh@time.cdrom.com, dyson@FreeBSD.org, dennis@etinc.com, kpneal@pobox.com, chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, Frank Seltzer wrote: > In noting the .edu domain of your address, I originally thought that > you might be a college student. I now believe that I am addressing the > janitor in the Computer Science Department. > > Frank Hear hear! 'nuf said. Andrew Webster andrew@pubnix.net PubNIX Montreal Connected to the world Branche au monde P.O. Box 147 Cote Saint Luc, Quebec H4V 2Y3 tel 514.990.5911 http://www.pubnix.net fax 514.990.9443 From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 2 21:22:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA09338 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Dec 1996 21:22:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mira.net.au (eplet.mira.net.au [203.9.190.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA09329 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 1996 21:22:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 29222 invoked from network); 3 Dec 1996 05:22:18 -0000 Received: from melb.werple.net.au (203.9.190.18) by eplet.mira.net.au with SMTP; 3 Dec 1996 05:22:18 -0000 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by melb.werple.net.au (8.7.6/8.7.3/2) with UUCP id QAA21735 for chat@FreeBSD.org; Tue, 3 Dec 1996 16:13:26 +1100 (EST) Received: (from jb@localhost) by freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA05256; Tue, 3 Dec 1996 15:13:32 +1100 (EST) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199612030413.PAA05256@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging To: chat@FreeBSD.org Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 15:13:31 +1100 (EST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199612030250.UAA25677@brasil.moneng.mei.com> from Joe Greco at "Dec 2, 96 08:50:12 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joe Greco wrote: > What are you bellyaching about!! I have.. a.. > > 386SX/16 with 3MB RAM (2 1x9's plus 4 256kX4's) > > WD 40MB hard disk (one of the earliest IDE drives) > > It has a blazing fast SMC 8003E... > > AND it doesn't work if in turbo mode. (So figure it's a 386SX/8) > > Any takers? I can (barely) think of worse configurations. Surely > somebody has one! I have an 80186 with NO hard disk and a 16 line liquid crystal screen that doesn't do graphics, 256K memory + 256K memory in the expansion box which has *TWO* 5.25" floppies. It doesn't have a turbo switch! It has a "speadsheet" program on a plug in EPROM. But of course it can't run FreeBSD terribly well. In fact, not at all really. 8-) Hell, it couldn't even run DOS very well at V1.1 Exactly which bit of FreeBSD do you put on that 40M disk? -- John Birrell CIMlogic Pty Ltd jb@cimlogic.com.au 119 Cecil Street Ph +61 3 9690 6900 South Melbourne Vic 3205 Fax +61 3 9690 6650 Australia Mob +61 18 353 137 From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 2 21:39:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA10104 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Dec 1996 21:39:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA10093 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 1996 21:39:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id QAA09073; Tue, 3 Dec 1996 16:09:21 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199612030539.QAA09073@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging In-Reply-To: <199612030413.PAA05256@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au> from John Birrell at "Dec 3, 96 03:13:31 pm" To: jb@cimlogic.com.au (John Birrell) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 16:09:20 +1030 (CST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk John Birrell stands accused of saying: > > I have an 80186 with NO hard disk and a 16 line liquid crystal screen > that doesn't do graphics, 256K memory + 256K memory in the expansion > box which has *TWO* 5.25" floppies. It doesn't have a turbo switch! > It has a "speadsheet" program on a plug in EPROM. *shrug* I have a CP/M laptop (just retired) and the Olivetti rebadge of the Kyocera machine that was the TRS-80 Model 100. Neither of these make for very good BSD machines either 8) > Exactly which bit of FreeBSD do you put on that 40M disk? You can actually put an entire BSD system on a 40M disk. In fact, for some time around 1.1 days, there was a dialin server running in the spare bedroom on a 20M disk. (dotat.apana.org.au, IIRC). Now that 40M disks are getting harder to source (and less reliable when you _do_ source them), I don't bother with these tiny installs anymore, which is why I scream at people that complain about a few more 800K binaries in the system. > John Birrell CIMlogic Pty Ltd -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 3 02:40:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA24585 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Dec 1996 02:40:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from gw.muc.ditec.de (gw.muc.ditec.de [194.120.126.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA24567 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 1996 02:40:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nobody@localhost) by gw.muc.ditec.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id LAA18228 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 1996 11:40:21 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: gw.muc.ditec.de: nobody set sender to using -f Received: from tartufo.muc.ditec.de(134.98.18.2) by gw.muc.ditec.de via smap (V2.0alpha) id sma018220; Tue Dec 3 11:40:13 1996 Received: by tartufo.muc.ditec.de (/\=-/\ Smail3.1.16.1 #16.39) id ; Tue, 3 Dec 96 11:42 MET Message-Id: Date: Tue, 3 Dec 96 11:42 MET From: me@tartufo.muc.ditec.de (Michael Elbel) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Much sadness. Sniff... Newsgroups: lists.freebsd.chat References: <199611290320.VAA20583@luke.pmr.com> Reply-To: me@gw.muc.ditec.de X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In lists.freebsd.chat Bob Willcox wrote: >Torsten Blum wrote: >> Mark wrote: >> >> > > I had to reboot my -server just now. Look at the uptime! >> > > 7:04PM up 84 days, 20 mins, 2 users, load averages: 0.06, 0.15, 0.15 >> >> Joerg wrote: >> >> > j@bonnie 51% uptime >> > 9:14pm up 77 days, 14:14, 1 user, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 >> > j@bonnie 52% uname -a >> > FreeBSD bonnie.tcd-dresden.de 1.1.5.1(RELEASE) BONNIE#7 i386 >> >> crashme% uname -a >> FreeBSD crashme.tlk.com 2.2-CURRENT FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT #0: Wed Jan 17 11:05:51 MET 1996 torstenb@crashme.tlk.com:/usr/src/sys/compile/CRASHME i386 >> % uptime >> 10:07PM up 205 days, 8:17, 2 users, load averages: 0.92, 0.78, 0.70 >Here's the current stats on my nameserver/gateway: >bob@rancor-p1 /home/bob> uname -a >FreeBSD rancor.pmr.com 2.1-STABLE FreeBSD 2.1-STABLE #0: Wed Dec 27 09:21:05 CST 1995 root@rancor.pmr.com:/usr/src/sys/compile/RANCOR i386 >bob@rancor-p1 /home/bob> uptime > 9:17PM up 264 days, 17:31, 3 users, load averages: 0.01, 0.03, 0.00 Wow, that's a good one - here's our firewall bastion host - the gateway to the internet for 400 people: (4)uptime 11:30AM up 146 days, 21:57, 2 users, load averages: 0.08, 0.04, 0.00 (5)uname -a FreeBSD gw.muc.ditec.de 2.1-STABLE FreeBSD 2.1-STABLE #1: Thu May 16 15:56:32 1996 root@edu-gw.muc.ditec.de:/1/os-src/sys/compile/gw i386 Oh, and the external www/ftp/name server. I don't think it went down a single time after the kernel was built: (1)uptime 11:34AM up 193 days, 22:40, 1 user, load averages: 1.00, 1.00, 1.00 (2)uname -a FreeBSD ftp.muc.ditec.de 2.1-STABLE FreeBSD 2.1-STABLE #0: Tue May 21 13:16:08 1996 root@edu-gw.muc.ditec.de:/1/os-src/sys/compile/ftp i386 Michael -- Michael Elbel, DITEC, Muenchen, Germany - me@muc.ditec.de Fermentation fault (coors dumped) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 3 02:46:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA25449 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Dec 1996 02:46:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA25443 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 1996 02:46:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk (snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]) by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id KAA19969 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 1996 10:46:12 GMT Received: from cadair.elsevier.co.uk by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 3 Dec 1996 10:45:51 +0000 Received: from tees.elsevier.co.uk (tees.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.60]) by cadair.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id KAA00399; Tue, 3 Dec 1996 10:45:41 GMT Received: (from dpr@localhost) by tees.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.3/8.8.3) id KAA00989; Tue, 3 Dec 1996 10:44:26 GMT To: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: COMDEX trip report.. References: <1082.849412669@time.cdrom.com> From: Paul Richards Date: 03 Dec 1996 10:44:25 +0000 In-Reply-To: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr's message of Mon, 2 Dec 1996 19:43:53 +0100 Message-ID: <57lobfewl2.fsf@tees.elsevier.co.uk> Lines: 12 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.30 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) writes: > I understand, 6 out of the 14 I ordered last time were broken... Guess I must have been lucky, mine made it all the way to the UK in one piece! -- Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor) Elsevier Science TIS online journal project. Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155 From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 3 07:52:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA23600 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Dec 1996 07:52:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from xmission.xmission.com (softweyr@xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA23595 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 1996 07:52:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from softweyr@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.3/8.7.5) id IAA20594; Tue, 3 Dec 1996 08:51:55 -0700 (MST) From: Softweyr LLC Message-Id: <199612031551.IAA20594@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 08:51:55 -0700 (MST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199612030539.QAA09073@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Dec 3, 96 04:09:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk John Birrell asked Mike Smith: % Exactly which bit of FreeBSD do you put on that 40M disk? Mike gently replied: > You can actually put an entire BSD system on a 40M disk. In fact, for > some time around 1.1 days, there was a dialin server running in the > spare bedroom on a 20M disk. (dotat.apana.org.au, IIRC). > > Now that 40M disks are getting harder to source (and less reliable when > you _do_ source them), I don't bother with these tiny installs anymore, > which is why I scream at people that complain about a few more 800K > binaries in the system. My "boat anchor" system, a 386sx/16 with 100 Mb drive and on-board 256K VGA, is going away. I've been running FreeBSD on this system for testing TCP/IP client/server programs for two years now, and it has served admirably. On the other hand, connecting to popper on it actually takes 45 seconds the first time around, when it has to heave the bits off the disk. ;^) My sister needs a machine to run educational programs for her kids, so "boat anchor" is going to her. I'll be replacing it with "danforth", a 486 DX/33 with a 340 Mb IDE drive. It'll be a much more capable server (probably) but it just won't have the character. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 3 09:43:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA01608 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Dec 1996 09:43:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from hmsa01 ([205.172.19.178]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA01603 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 1996 09:43:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from TERRA ([10.1.73.41]) by hmsa01 (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA02411; Tue, 3 Dec 1996 07:42:03 -1000 Message-Id: <32A44724.52E9@hmsa.com> Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 07:28:36 -0800 From: Terrance Organization: Sorted by piles... on my desk :-) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging References: <199612030250.UAA25677@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Humm... That's a good one... How about this... I have a machine sitting on the side with FreeBSD doing nothing :-) the Power supply is Dead (it's supposed to be running the switch is on) I bet that would be REAL Slow huh? Heh, Heh, Heh... Joe Greco wrote: > > > David Greenman wrote: > > > > > > [corbin:bsd] lat_tcp localhost > > > $Id: lat_tcp.c,v 1.1 1994/11/18 08:49:48 lm Exp $ > > > > Oh boy! I want to try this too! Where do I find lat_tcp and similar goodies? > > > > While I can't compete for the fastest, I'll try for the slowest. I have a > > 386SX16 with 4.5M (don't know where the half is, but FreeBSD says its > > there) and a 3-com 8 bit Etherlink II. That machine takes 4 days to do > > "catman -f". So beat that if you dare! > > What are you bellyaching about!! I have.. a.. > > 386SX/16 with 3MB RAM (2 1x9's plus 4 256kX4's) > > WD 40MB hard disk (one of the earliest IDE drives) > > It has a blazing fast SMC 8003E... > > AND it doesn't work if in turbo mode. (So figure it's a 386SX/8) > > Any takers? I can (barely) think of worse configurations. Surely > somebody has one! > > :-) :-) Followups to -chat. > > ... JG From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 4 09:31:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA05330 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 09:31:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from hda.hda.com (ip3-max1-fitch.ziplink.net [199.232.245.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA05204 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 09:30:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.hda.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA26672 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 12:26:43 -0500 From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199612041726.MAA26672@hda.hda.com> Subject: Nentendo-64 port To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 12:26:42 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Forget the Alpha port - we need the N64 port. I read in this morning's paper that they hope to ship 750,000 units in the US this year and estimate they could sell 2.5 million if they could build them. -- Peter Dufault Real-Time Machine Control and Simulation HD Associates, Inc. Voice: 508 433 6936 dufault@hda.com Fax: 508 433 5267 From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 4 10:21:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA14212 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 10:21:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA14207 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 10:21:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from dympna (dympna.lgc.com [134.132.73.254]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id KAA00316 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 10:21:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dympna (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id MAA11828; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 12:18:43 -0600 Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 12:18:43 -0600 (CST) From: Rob Snow X-Sender: rsnow@dympna To: Peter Dufault cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Nentendo-64 port In-Reply-To: <199612041726.MAA26672@hda.hda.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 4 Dec 1996, Peter Dufault wrote: > Forget the Alpha port - we need the N64 port. I read in this > morning's paper that they hope to ship 750,000 units in the US > this year and estimate they could sell 2.5 million if they > could build them. Aren't the Nintendos MIPS based? -Rob > > -- > Peter Dufault Real-Time Machine Control and Simulation > HD Associates, Inc. Voice: 508 433 6936 > dufault@hda.com Fax: 508 433 5267 > From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 4 11:13:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA16675 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 11:13:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from DNS.Lamb.net (root@DNS.Lamb.net [206.169.44.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA16670 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 11:13:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from Gatekeeper.Lamb.net (ulf@gatekeeper.Lamb.net [207.90.181.2]) by DNS.Lamb.net (8.8.3/8.8.2) with ESMTP id LAA02776; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 11:13:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from ulf@localhost) by Gatekeeper.Lamb.net (8.8.3/8.7.6) id LAA10510; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 11:12:24 -0800 (PST) From: Ulf Zimmermann Message-Id: <199612041912.LAA10510@Gatekeeper.Lamb.net> Subject: Re: Nentendo-64 port To: rsnow@lgc.com (Rob Snow) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 11:12:24 -0800 (PST) Cc: dufault@hda.com, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from Rob Snow at "Dec 4, 96 12:18:43 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As far I know Nintendo has already shipped more then 1 mio. It is based on a development from SGI. It has a Mips 4300-100 processor. It has a second chip, developed by SGI, which does the graphics. Take a look at http://www.Mips.com/ They tell some stuff about it there. (Orion) processor > On Wed, 4 Dec 1996, Peter Dufault wrote: > > Forget the Alpha port - we need the N64 port. I read in this > > morning's paper that they hope to ship 750,000 units in the US > > this year and estimate they could sell 2.5 million if they > > could build them. > Aren't the Nintendos MIPS based? > > -Rob > > > > > -- > > Peter Dufault Real-Time Machine Control and Simulation > > HD Associates, Inc. Voice: 508 433 6936 > > dufault@hda.com Fax: 508 433 5267 > > > > Ulf. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-769-2936 Lamb Art Internet Services | http://www.Lamb.net/ | http://www.Alameda.net From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 4 12:14:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA22490 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 12:14:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.131.181]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA22485 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 12:14:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from cardinal.fsl.noaa.gov (daemon@cardinal.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.60.101]) by gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA23792 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 20:14:40 GMT Received: from auk.fsl.noaa.gov by cardinal.fsl.noaa.gov with SMTP (1.40.112.3/16.2) id AA008590479; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 20:14:39 GMT Message-Id: <32A5DC04.1C44@fsl.noaa.gov> Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 13:16:04 -0700 From: Sean Kelly Organization: NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; HP-UX B.10.10 9000/725) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: short URLs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I like the fact that Netscrape will assume the transport type "http", the host name "www" and the top-level domain of "com" for most URLs. It makes jumping to, say, IBM, as easy as typing "ibm", or Jose Cuervo's blender page as easy as typing "cuervo". (But I really prefer Porfidio Tequila ... and surprise, "porfidio" takes me to that fine spirit's home page!) I tried it with just "freebsd" ... and sure enough, there's a www.freebsd.com which is, luckily, the same thing as www.freebsd.org. The FreeBSD home page in all its glory appears! Best of all, it doesn't work with "linux". :-) Take care. --k From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 4 12:20:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA23943 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 12:20:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA23938 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 12:20:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA04014; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 12:20:47 -0800 (PST) To: Peter Dufault cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Nentendo-64 port In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Dec 1996 12:26:42 EST." <199612041726.MAA26672@hda.hda.com> Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 12:20:47 -0800 Message-ID: <4011.849730847@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [takes out his wand of office] "I now dub thee Sir Dufault, master of the N64 port!" When can we expect to see the first BETA? :-) Jordan > Forget the Alpha port - we need the N64 port. I read in this > morning's paper that they hope to ship 750,000 units in the US > this year and estimate they could sell 2.5 million if they > could build them. > > -- > Peter Dufault Real-Time Machine Control and Simulation > HD Associates, Inc. Voice: 508 433 6936 > dufault@hda.com Fax: 508 433 5267 From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 4 12:33:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA29617 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 12:33:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA29603; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 12:33:24 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199612042033.MAA29603@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Nentendo-64 port To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 12:33:24 -0800 (PST) Cc: dufault@hda.com, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <4011.849730847@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Dec 4, 96 12:20:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > [takes out his wand of office] > > "I now dub thee Sir Dufault, master of the N64 port!" > > When can we expect to see the first BETA? :-) > > Jordan > > > Forget the Alpha port - we need the N64 port. I read in this > > morning's paper that they hope to ship 750,000 units in the US > > this year and estimate they could sell 2.5 million if they > > could build them. their wwebsite: http://www.Mips.com/immersion.html says "800,000 units had been shipped" and they "3.6 million systems in the first nine months of availability" this could be the biggest installed base we have seen yet (discounting the microprocessors found in cars ;) jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 4 12:52:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.3/8.7.3) id MAA12525 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 12:52:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from freebsd.netcom.com (freebsd.netcom.com [198.211.79.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA12520 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 12:52:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by freebsd.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id OAA14832; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 14:51:53 -0600 From: bugs@freebsd.netcom.com (Mark Hittinger) Message-Id: <199612042051.OAA14832@freebsd.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Nentendo-64 port To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 14:51:53 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Forget the Alpha port - we need the N64 port. I read in this > > morning's paper that they hope to ship 750,000 units in the US > > this year and estimate they could sell 2.5 million if they > > could build them. > > I purchased two n64's last october - one for the kid and one for me to take apart. Unless there is a memory management unit on the r4300 chip we would need to also add some hardware to the n64 to bring it up to snuff. Other than that it looks totally do-able :-) It should be possible to do a small hardware makeover and wind up with a low end sgi platform. Regards, Mark Hittinger Netcom/Dallas bugs@freebsd.netcom.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 4 15:42:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.3/8.7.3) id PAA22560 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 15:42:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (root@mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA22549; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 15:42:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from basta.cs.tu-berlin.de (wosch@basta.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.16]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.6.13/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA03660; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 00:41:14 +0100 Received: (from wosch@localhost) by campa.panke.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA00598; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 00:18:08 +0100 Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 00:18:08 +0100 From: Wolfram Schneider Message-Id: <199612042318.AAA00598@campa.panke.de> To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: freebsd-chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: EurOpen.SE: FreeBSD Presentation, trip report In-Reply-To: <199612030026.QAA23882@freefall.freebsd.org> References: <199612030026.QAA23882@freefall.freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jonathan M. Bresler writes: > Some general notes on making presentations: practice, out >loud, in front of people, repeatedly. Know your material cold. >Have a set of anecdotes that you can use to enliven the >presentation and bring them out as needed. True. Today was Prof. Joseph Weizenbaum here and he had an anecdote for every question ;-))) (mostly about the evil MIT ;-) Wolfram From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 4 16:11:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.3/8.7.3) id QAA23782 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 16:11:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from hda.hda.com (ip10-max1-fitch.ziplink.net [199.232.245.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA23777 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 16:11:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.hda.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA27427; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 19:08:40 -0500 From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199612050008.TAA27427@hda.hda.com> Subject: Re: Nentendo-64 port In-Reply-To: <199612042033.MAA29603@freefall.freebsd.org> from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at "Dec 4, 96 12:33:24 pm" To: jmb@freefall.freebsd.org (Jonathan M. Bresler) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 19:08:39 -0500 (EST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, dufault@hda.com, chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > [takes out his wand of office] > > > > "I now dub thee Sir Dufault, master of the N64 port!" (I kneel, yet the wand isn't working - maybe you didn't pick up the red hat by the waterfall?) > their wwebsite: http://www.Mips.com/immersion.html > says "800,000 units had been shipped" and they > "3.6 million systems in the first nine months of availability" > > this could be the biggest installed base we have seen yet > > (discounting the microprocessors found in cars ;) The same article said the original estimate for US shipments in the last quarter of this year was 500K. They'll manage 750K and now estimate they could sell 2.5 million. The original estimate was based on the "unprecedented" sales rate in Japan that the website you reference touts. If anything bloodies MS it has to be something like this. I keep wondering what happens if anyone aggresively persues the constant performance curve. -- Peter Dufault Real-Time Machine Control and Simulation HD Associates, Inc. Voice: 508 433 6936 dufault@hda.com Fax: 508 433 5267 From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 4 16:19:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.3/8.7.3) id QAA24204 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 16:19:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from hda.hda.com (ip10-max1-fitch.ziplink.net [199.232.245.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA24198 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 16:19:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.hda.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA27449; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 19:16:35 -0500 From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199612050016.TAA27449@hda.hda.com> Subject: Re: Nentendo-64 port In-Reply-To: <199612042051.OAA14832@freebsd.netcom.com> from Mark Hittinger at "Dec 4, 96 02:51:53 pm" To: bugs@freebsd.netcom.com (Mark Hittinger) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 19:16:34 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Unless there is a memory management unit on the r4300 chip we would need > to also add some hardware to the n64 to bring it up to snuff... It has an mmu; see http://www.mips.com/products/r4300i -- Peter Dufault Real-Time Machine Control and Simulation HD Associates, Inc. Voice: 508 433 6936 dufault@hda.com Fax: 508 433 5267 From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 4 17:36:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.3/8.7.3) id RAA29041 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 17:36:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from xmission.xmission.com (softweyr@xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA29036 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 17:36:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from softweyr@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.3/8.7.5) id SAA18838; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 18:36:19 -0700 (MST) From: Softweyr LLC Message-Id: <199612050136.SAA18838@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: Nentendo-64 port To: dufault@hda.com (Peter Dufault) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 18:36:19 -0700 (MST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199612050016.TAA27449@hda.hda.com> from "Peter Dufault" at Dec 4, 96 07:16:34 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Unless there is a memory management unit on the r4300 chip we would need > > to also add some hardware to the n64 to bring it up to snuff... > > It has an mmu; see http://www.mips.com/products/r4300i There is already a port of NetBSD for the 4300i, see: http://www.algor.co.uk/www/info/p4032-benefits.html These guys make an eval board with a 4300i and a PCI bus, and have apparently hacked NetBSD into running on it. But then again, that is what the NetBSD gang have concentrated on, portability, isn't it? Anyhow, a running NetBSD system would be a good starting point for N64BSD. ;^) Now, how are we going to pound a disk drive into the Nintendo? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 4 18:29:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.3/8.7.3) id SAA01777 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 18:29:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from crh.cl.msu.edu (crh.cl.msu.edu [35.8.1.24]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA01772 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 18:29:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from henrich@localhost) by crh.cl.msu.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) id VAA04325; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 21:29:43 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 21:29:43 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Henrich Message-Id: <199612050229.VAA04325@crh.cl.msu.edu> To: softweyr@xmission.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Nentendo-64 port Newsgroups: lists.freebsd.chat References: <5859hc$23qb@msunews.cl.msu.edu> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In lists.freebsd.chat you write: >> > Unless there is a memory management unit on the r4300 chip we would need >> > to also add some hardware to the n64 to bring it up to snuff... >> >> It has an mmu; see http://www.mips.com/products/r4300i >There is already a port of NetBSD for the 4300i, see: > http://www.algor.co.uk/www/info/p4032-benefits.html >These guys make an eval board with a 4300i and a PCI bus, and have >apparently hacked NetBSD into running on it. But then again, that >is what the NetBSD gang have concentrated on, portability, isn't >it? >Anyhow, a running NetBSD system would be a good starting point for >N64BSD. ;^) Now, how are we going to pound a disk drive into the >Nintendo? Which is why you go with a psxBSD for the Sony Playstation, you can swap to the memory cards and load off of CD :) -Crh -- Charles Henrich Michigan State University henrich@msu.edu http://pilot.msu.edu/~henrich From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 4 20:09:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.3/8.7.3) id UAA11801 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 20:09:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from hamby1.lightside.net (hamby1.lightside.net [207.67.176.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA11796 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 20:09:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jehamby@localhost) by hamby1.lightside.net (8.8.3/8.8.2) with SMTP id GAA00234; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 06:59:27 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: hamby1.lightside.net: jehamby owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 06:59:26 -0800 (PST) From: Jake Hamby X-Sender: jehamby@hamby1 To: Peter Dufault cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Nentendo-64 port In-Reply-To: <199612041726.MAA26672@hda.hda.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 4 Dec 1996, Peter Dufault wrote: > Forget the Alpha port - we need the N64 port. I read in this > morning's paper that they hope to ship 750,000 units in the US > this year and estimate they could sell 2.5 million if they > could build them. Well, it _is_ a 90MHz MIPS R4000-series. That's probably quite a bit more horsepower than most DECstations (which can run NetBSD/MIPS). Anyone want to make a "UNIX cartridge?" :-) -- Jake From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 4 20:20:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.3/8.7.3) id UAA12231 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 20:20:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from gaia.coppe.ufrj.br (root@cisigw.coppe.ufrj.br [146.164.2.31]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA12226 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 20:20:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jonny@localhost) by gaia.coppe.ufrj.br (8.8.3/8.7.3) id CAA02718; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 02:20:38 -0200 (EDT) From: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Message-Id: <199612050420.CAA02718@gaia.coppe.ufrj.br> Subject: Re: Installation: still not perfect (fwd) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 02:20:38 -0200 (EDT) Cc: aimeusaco@rivendel.lin.ufrj.br (Lista Ai-Caralho !) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > ----- Forwarded message from Jordan K. Hubbard ----- > > > 3Com 3C585C). It also sported a sticker proclaiming "Designed for > > Microsoft Windows 95%", which I found convenient to put on my > > waste paper basket. > > God, what a market opportunity. Windows95 stickers for trash cans. I > like it. Maybe you could even put "Internet Ready" somewhere on the > sticker and go for full coverage. In fact, we have once taken the "Designed for Windows 95" sticker from our brand new 17" monitor, and put it "hanged" over Chuck's trident in a FreeBSD coffe mug. Oh, and at that time I think we transmitted this beast to the FreeBSD lounge group over the MBone. :) > > ----- End of forwarded message from Jordan K. Hubbard ----- Jonny -- Joao Carlos Mendes Luis jonny@gta.ufrj.br +55 21 290-4698 ( Job ) jonny@cisi.coppe.ufrj.br Network Manager UFRJ/COPPE/CISI Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 4 20:28:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.3/8.7.3) id UAA12651 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 20:28:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from ilms.nla.gov.au (ilms.nla.gov.au [192.102.239.30]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA12643 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 20:27:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from gadget.nla.gov.au (cmakin@gadget.nla.gov.au [203.4.201.52]) by ilms.nla.gov.au (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA60722 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 15:23:43 +1100 Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 15:27:43 +1100 (EST) From: Carl Makin To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Nentendo-64 port In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 30 Nov 1996, Jake Hamby wrote: > On Wed, 4 Dec 1996, Peter Dufault wrote: > > Forget the Alpha port - we need the N64 port. I read in this > Well, it _is_ a 90MHz MIPS R4000-series. That's probably quite a bit more > horsepower than most DECstations (which can run NetBSD/MIPS). Anyone want > to make a "UNIX cartridge?" :-) Hmmm. A small version of BSD in the cartridge with X and Netscape. Sounds like a "Network Computer" to me. :) Carl. -- Carl Makin (VK1KCM) C.Makin@nla.gov.au 'Work +61 6 262 1576' "Speaking for myself only!" 'If you want to make your spouse pay attention to what you say... Talk in your sleep!' From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 4 21:17:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.3/8.7.3) id VAA14703 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 21:17:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.hsc.wvu.edu (www.hsc.wvu.edu [157.182.105.122]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA14696 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 21:17:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jsigmon@localhost) by www.hsc.wvu.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA09924; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 00:18:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 00:18:21 -0500 (EST) From: Jeremy Sigmon To: Carl Makin cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Nentendo-64 port In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Hmmm. A small version of BSD in the cartridge with X and Netscape. > > Sounds like a "Network Computer" to me. If it has Xwindows then it has more functionality than some network computers I have heard about. Plus when the boss is away. Mario64!!!!!!! :) > > :) > > Carl. > > -- > Carl Makin (VK1KCM) > C.Makin@nla.gov.au 'Work +61 6 262 1576' "Speaking for myself only!" > 'If you want to make your spouse pay attention to what you say... > Talk in your sleep!' > From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 4 23:08:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.3/8.7.3) id XAA19346 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 23:08:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (ghpc6.ihf.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.90.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA19296 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 23:08:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from thomas@localhost) by ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (8.6.12/8.6.9) id IAA26126; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 08:06:37 +0100 From: Thomas Gellekum Message-Id: <199612050706.IAA26126@ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de> Subject: Re: text, menu/dialog/windowing, library, ideas? To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 08:06:36 +0100 (MET) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199612042104.OAA17220@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Dec 4, 96 02:04:25 pm" Organization: Institut f. Hochfrequenztechnik, RWTH Aachen X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL11 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [Moved to -chat] Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > What's SAM? > > "Software Automatic Mouth" ...didn't you ever own a Commodore 64? No. In school we only had one CBM 3032 and one 4016. My first own computer was a Sharp MZ700, which was slightly cheaper than the C64 at the time, and I didn't buy another until I could afford a 386. tg From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 4 23:44:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.3/8.7.3) id XAA20444 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 23:44:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from dympna (dympna.lgc.com [134.132.73.254]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA20439 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 23:44:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dympna (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id BAA16591; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 01:43:25 -0600 Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 01:43:25 -0600 (CST) From: Rob Snow X-Sender: rsnow@dympna To: Jeremy Sigmon cc: Carl Makin , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Nentendo-64 port In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 5 Dec 1996, Jeremy Sigmon wrote: > > > > Hmmm. A small version of BSD in the cartridge with X and Netscape. > > > > Sounds like a "Network Computer" to me. > > If it has Xwindows then it has more functionality than some network > computers I have heard about. Plus when the boss is away. > Mario64!!!!!!! Have ya'll seen the Java Station-1? Seems to me that there pretty proud of a REALLY bad web browser that happens to run _some_ java apps. At SEG they all they would show was the usual applets (anim, scroll, etc) -rob > > :) > > > > > :) > > > > Carl. > > > > -- > > Carl Makin (VK1KCM) > > C.Makin@nla.gov.au 'Work +61 6 262 1576' "Speaking for myself only!" > > 'If you want to make your spouse pay attention to what you say... > > Talk in your sleep!' > > > From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 5 01:13:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.3/8.7.3) id BAA25195 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 01:13:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA25178 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 01:13:36 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Lehey Received: from freebie.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0vVZrt-000QqRC; Thu, 5 Dec 96 10:13 MET Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.de (8.8.4/8.6.12) id JAA21870; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 09:24:21 +0100 (MET) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Message-Id: <199612050824.JAA21870@freebie.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Installation: still not perfect In-Reply-To: <199612050458.PAA20302@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from Michael Smith at "Dec 5, 96 03:28:43 pm" To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 09:24:21 +0100 (MET) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (following up to -chat) Michael Smith writes: > Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying: >> Greg Lehey opined: >>> 3Com 3C585C). It also sported a sticker proclaiming "Designed for >>> Microsoft Windows 95%", which I found convenient to put on my >>> waste paper basket. >> >> God, what a market opportunity. Windows95 stickers for trash cans. I >> like it. Maybe you could even put "Internet Ready" somewhere on the >> sticker and go for full coverage. > > Hey! I claim prior art on this one; the first W95 sticker I ever met > still adorns my bin, alongside the Netware one. OK, I didn't expect to be that original, I just liked the way they had prepared it so nicely. It was rather appropriate, too, since the first thing I did was to wipe Windoze 95% off the hard disk. The notebook also has an Intel Inside sticker on it. Any idea where I should stick that? I was thinking of putting in on my old (1974 vintage) 8008 CPU board, but that feels like sacrilege. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 5 03:07:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.3/8.7.3) id DAA01046 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 03:07:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA01041 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 03:07:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id VAA22225; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 21:37:07 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199612051107.VAA22225@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Installation: still not perfect In-Reply-To: <199612050824.JAA21870@freebie.lemis.de> from Greg Lehey at "Dec 5, 96 09:24:21 am" To: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 21:37:06 +1030 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey stands accused of saying: > (following up to -chat) (damn, I meant to send it there, and then ol' automatic-elm-fingers cut in.) > > Hey! I claim prior art on this one; the first W95 sticker I ever met > > still adorns my bin, alongside the Netware one. > > OK, I didn't expect to be that original, I just liked the way they had > prepared it so nicely. It was rather appropriate, too, since the > first thing I did was to wipe Windoze 95% off the hard disk. The HDA in the Sharp units we have here at work even have a little sticker on them indicating that they were loaded with it at the factory; sheesh! > The notebook also has an Intel Inside sticker on it. Any idea where I > should stick that? I was thinking of putting in on my old (1974 > vintage) 8008 CPU board, but that feels like sacrilege. I have one on my old Casio calculator, and another on my SO's electronic toaster. I even followed the instructions in the Intel envelope that comes with the stickers (two little stickers and ten pages of instructions in six languages on where on the case they should be put; only in the computer industry...) so far as was possible. > Greg -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 5 04:38:31 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id EAA05097 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 04:38:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id EAA05092 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 04:38:27 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Lehey Received: from freebie.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0vVd4A-000QruC; Thu, 5 Dec 96 13:38 MET Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.de (8.8.4/8.6.12) id NAA07356; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 13:11:08 +0100 (MET) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Message-Id: <199612051211.NAA07356@freebie.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Installation: still not perfect In-Reply-To: <199612051107.VAA22225@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from Michael Smith at "Dec 5, 96 09:37:06 pm" To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 13:11:08 +0100 (MET) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael Smith writes: > Greg Lehey stands accused of saying: >> (following up to -chat) > (damn, I meant to send it there, and then ol' automatic-elm-fingers cut in.) > >> > Hey! I claim prior art on this one; the first W95 sticker I ever met >> > still adorns my bin, alongside the Netware one. >> >> OK, I didn't expect to be that original, I just liked the way they had >> prepared it so nicely. It was rather appropriate, too, since the >> first thing I did was to wipe Windoze 95% off the hard disk. > > The HDA in the Sharp units we have here at work even have a little > sticker on them indicating that they were loaded with it at the > factory; sheesh! Yup, so did mine. That's reasonable enough: after all, they need to be able to recognize them at the factory. >> The notebook also has an Intel Inside sticker on it. Any idea where I >> should stick that? I was thinking of putting in on my old (1974 >> vintage) 8008 CPU board, but that feels like sacrilege. > > I have one on my old Casio calculator, and another on my SO's > electronic toaster. Yes, I was thinking of a toaster, too. > I even followed the instructions in the Intel envelope that comes > with the stickers (two little stickers and ten pages of instructions > in six languages on where on the case they should be put; only in > the computer industry...) so far as was possible. You're lucky. I have to peel mine off the notebook. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 5 08:09:20 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id IAA16659 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 08:09:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id IAA16643 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 08:09:12 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Lehey Received: from freebie.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0vVgMC-000QrsC; Thu, 5 Dec 96 17:09 MET Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.de (8.8.4/8.6.12) id QAA18876; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 16:57:58 +0100 (MET) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Message-Id: <199612051557.QAA18876@freebie.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Installation: still not perfect In-Reply-To: from Jeremy Lea at "Dec 5, 96 01:37:37 pm" To: reg@shale.csir.co.za (Jeremy Lea) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 16:57:58 +0100 (MET) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jeremy Lea writes: > Greg Lehey writes: >> The notebook also has an Intel Inside sticker on it. Any idea where I >> should stick that? I was thinking of putting in on my old (1974 >> vintage) 8008 CPU board, but that feels like sacrilege. > > On the coffee machine? No, that's "Java inside" :-) I did think of it, but I couldn't find a good place to put it, so I ended up putting it on the fridge. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 5 08:44:07 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id IAA17966 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 08:44:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (sprice@fly.HiWAAY.net [204.214.4.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA17961 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 08:44:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by fly.HiWAAY.net; (8.8.4/1.1.8.2/21Sep95-1003PM) id KAA18543; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 10:44:03 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 10:44:03 -0600 (CST) From: Steve Price To: chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Going insane with X Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi all, I have one of those questions that you hate to ask because you know it's in a FAQ or manpage somewhere, but I have looked feverishly and have not drummed up the right answer. My problems is this. I want the tradtional behavior of the backspace key. That is, delete the character at point and move point back one character. My xterm DTRT, but programs like Netscrape and some Motif programs that I am working on do not. In these broken instances, the Backspace key == the Delete key (delete the character at point). I have tried several X-servers (XF86_SVGA and Xaccel) and the only one that seems to DTRT is the box that has Xaccel on it. I don't know why this would make a difference, but I can't find another difference between the boxes that do work and the ones that don't. BTW, I have run 'dumpkeys' in all cases and the output looks identical. If anyone could find it in their heart to provide some hints, I would be very grateful. Most humbly, Steve From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 5 09:00:32 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id JAA18361 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 09:00:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from nimbus.superior.net (root@nimbus.superior.net [206.153.96.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA18356 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 09:00:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from exidor@localhost) by nimbus.superior.net (8.7.6/8.7.5) id MAA03860; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 12:00:26 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199612051700.MAA03860@nimbus.superior.net> Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 12:00:25 -0500 From: exidor@superior.net (Christopher Masto) To: sprice@hiwaay.net (Steve Price) Cc: chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Going insane with X References: X-Mailer: Mutt 0.48.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: ; from Steve Price on Dec 5, 1996 10:44:03 -0600 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Steve Price writes: > My problems is this. I want the tradtional behavior of > the backspace key. That is, delete the character at point > and move point back one character. My xterm DTRT, but > programs like Netscrape and some Motif programs that I am > working on do not. In these broken instances, the Backspace > key == the Delete key (delete the character at point). export XKEYSYMDB=/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/XKeySymDB (bash) -- Christopher Masto . . . . Superior Net Support: support@superior.net chris@masto.com . . . . . Masto Consulting: info@masto.com On Telephones: The telephone company is urging people to please not use the telephone unless it is absolutely necessary in order to keep the lines open for emergency personnel. We'll be right back after this break to give away a pair of Phil Collins concert tickets to caller number 95. - a Los Angeles radio DJ shortly after the February 1990 earthquake From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 5 10:28:57 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA22360 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 10:28:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA22352; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 10:28:44 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199612051828.KAA22352@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Installation: still not perfect To: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 10:28:44 -0800 (PST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199612050824.JAA21870@freebie.lemis.de> from "Greg Lehey" at Dec 5, 96 09:24:21 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey wrote: > > The notebook also has an Intel Inside sticker on it. Any idea where I > should stick that? I was thinking of putting in on my old (1974 > vintage) 8008 CPU board, but that feels like sacrilege. got access to an IBM mainframe? jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 5 10:45:57 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA23276 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 10:45:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id KAA23268; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 10:45:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA17095; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 11:45:48 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 11:45:48 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199612051845.LAA17095@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/net getservent.c In-Reply-To: <199612051841.KAA23075@freefall.freebsd.org> References: <199612051841.KAA23075@freefall.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > Everyone please call ParaSoft today and say "I will buy 57 copies of > Insure++ tomorrow, but first I want a FreeBSD version." :-) How much is it? Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 5 11:03:40 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA24651 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 11:03:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA24637; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 11:03:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA09863; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 11:03:25 -0800 (PST) To: Nate Williams cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/net getservent.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Dec 1996 11:45:48 MST." <199612051845.LAA17095@rocky.mt.sri.com> Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 11:03:25 -0800 Message-ID: <9859.849812605@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > > Everyone please call ParaSoft today and say "I will buy 57 copies of > > Insure++ tomorrow, but first I want a FreeBSD version." :-) > > How much is it? Dunno, that's sort of a question I never asked since I figured it was a moot point (for now) in any case. I did talk to their marketing guy who said two interesting things: 1. They port to new platforms for a fee of $250K and did the BSD/OS port because BSDI did, in fact, pay them $250K 2. While I was gagging at this and stating unequivocably that even if we had $250K to spend, it would NOT be spent on paying an ISV for a port, he quickly pointed out that in this particular case there were some "big customers" who used both BSD/OS and FreeBSD and were making quacking noises about a FreeBSD version, so there might be room for more creative financing in this case. So maybe it really is a good time to start calling them up and asking for the FreeBSD version. www.parasoft.com is unreachable for me right now so I can't really say any more than this. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 5 11:09:47 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA24983 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 11:09:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA24977 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 11:09:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA17289; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 12:09:33 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 12:09:33 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199612051909.MAA17289@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Nate Williams , chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/net getservent.c In-Reply-To: <9859.849812605@time.cdrom.com> References: <199612051845.LAA17095@rocky.mt.sri.com> <9859.849812605@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > > Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > > > Everyone please call ParaSoft today and say "I will buy 57 copies of > > > Insure++ tomorrow, but first I want a FreeBSD version." :-) > > > > How much is it? > > Dunno, that's sort of a question I never asked since I figured > it was a moot point (for now) in any case. I did talk to their > marketing guy who said two interesting things: > > 1. They port to new platforms for a fee of $250K and did the BSD/OS > port because BSDI did, in fact, pay them $250K Ouch! > 2. While I was gagging at this and stating unequivocably that even if we > had $250K to spend, it would NOT be spent on paying an ISV for a port, > he quickly pointed out that in this particular case there were some > "big customers" who used both BSD/OS and FreeBSD and were making quacking > noises about a FreeBSD version, so there might be room for more creative > financing in this case. Interesting... > So maybe it really is a good time to start calling them up and asking for > the FreeBSD version. www.parasoft.com is unreachable for me right now > so I can't really say any more than this. I couldn't find any pricing information on their site, but FreeBSD was mentioned as supported. :) http://www.parasoft.com/insure/compare/features.htm Cut-n-paste... Platform Availability Platform Insure++ Purify BSD / Free BSD Yes No Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 5 11:24:34 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA26129 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 11:24:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA26123 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 11:24:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA12564; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 11:24:26 -0800 (PST) To: Nate Williams cc: chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/net getservent.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Dec 1996 12:09:33 MST." <199612051909.MAA17289@rocky.mt.sri.com> Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 11:24:26 -0800 Message-ID: <12560.849813866@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I couldn't find any pricing information on their site, but FreeBSD was > mentioned as supported. :) > > http://www.parasoft.com/insure/compare/features.htm > > Cut-n-paste... > > Platform Availability > > Platform Insure++ Purify > BSD / Free BSD Yes No "Also Interesting." :-) Perhaps I can help them make these marketing claims a reality. :-) We'll see how they react to my latest missive. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 5 11:35:39 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA27322 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 11:35:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA27316 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 11:35:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA18582; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 11:35:33 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199612051935.LAA18582@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Nate Williams cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/net getservent.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Dec 1996 12:09:33 MST." <199612051909.MAA17289@rocky.mt.sri.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 11:35:33 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk So where is the evaluation copy for BSD/FreeBSD? 8) Amancio >From The Desk Of Nate Williams : > Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > > > Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > > > > Everyone please call ParaSoft today and say "I will buy 57 copies of > > > > Insure++ tomorrow, but first I want a FreeBSD version." :-) > > > > > > How much is it? > > > > Dunno, that's sort of a question I never asked since I figured > > it was a moot point (for now) in any case. I did talk to their > > marketing guy who said two interesting things: > > > > 1. They port to new platforms for a fee of $250K and did the BSD/OS > > port because BSDI did, in fact, pay them $250K > > Ouch! > > > 2. While I was gagging at this and stating unequivocably that even if we > > had $250K to spend, it would NOT be spent on paying an ISV for a port, > > he quickly pointed out that in this particular case there were some > > "big customers" who used both BSD/OS and FreeBSD and were making quackin g > > noises about a FreeBSD version, so there might be room for more creative > > financing in this case. > > Interesting... > > > So maybe it really is a good time to start calling them up and asking for > > the FreeBSD version. www.parasoft.com is unreachable for me right now > > so I can't really say any more than this. > > I couldn't find any pricing information on their site, but FreeBSD was > mentioned as supported. :) > > http://www.parasoft.com/insure/compare/features.htm > > Cut-n-paste... > > Platform Availability > > Platform Insure++ Purify > BSD / Free BSD Yes No > > > > Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 5 16:18:48 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id QAA14297 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 16:18:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from xmission.xmission.com (softweyr@xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA14291 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 16:18:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from softweyr@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.3/8.7.5) id RAA04841; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 17:18:14 -0700 (MST) From: Softweyr LLC Message-Id: <199612060018.RAA04841@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD etc. To: rkw@dataplex.net (Richard Wackerbarth) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 17:18:10 -0700 (MST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Richard Wackerbarth" at Dec 5, 96 11:36:55 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Recently, I chastised Richard Wackerbarth thusly: % If you, Richard, want to become the champion of security patches for % FreeBSD 2.1.6.1+, talk to Jordan and devise a mechanism for distri- % buting security patches as part of "the organization." He responded with: > Here I have to disagree with you. > This is EXACTLY what I am, and have been, trying to do. > The mechanism exists. The commitment to use it is lacking. > It appears that some of the developers don't want it to happen. Perhaps. FreeBSD is their creation, literally their brainchild. The would hate to see it disfigured by some buch of rank "amateurs" like you and I, even though I am certainly not an amateur at this, and you may not be either. We haven't "fought this war" with them, and are therefore not particulary welcome to go in and diddle up their baby. On the other hand, they're busily creating the next child, and do not have time to dedicate to caring for 2.1.x as it approaches its dotage. I suggest being mindful of this when offering "help." Keep in mind that you are offering help for a problem they don't want to solve, and convince them that you will eliminate the problem, not escalate it right into their hearts. ;^) % In other words, % if it is really important to you, become part of the solution, rather % than remaining part of the problem. Nobody has ever said FreeBSD is a % closed organization, and offers to volunteer are rarely turned down. % % Most of the call for continuing security fixes for the -STABLE branch % have come from ISPs using FreeBSD to make money, but I have heard % exactly *none* of them volunteer any resources - manpower, cpu cycles, % disk space, network bandwidth, *nothing* in order to make this happen. % Put up or shut up! > I agree with the sentiment. However, that does not apply to me. > (1) I'm not making any money using FreeBSD. > (2) I AM supplying manpower, cpu cycles, disk space and network bandwidth > in support of FreeBSD, and have been doing so for some time. You don't work for an ISP, or another business that uses FreeBSD in their quest for $$$? I intended the inclusive "you", meaning you and whoever pays your salary. I have to assume you wouldn't not be so interested in security if you were just using FreeBSD at home; you could simply drop the net connection unless you are actively moving bits across the wire. I mostly wanted to communicate that I agree with your intentions but not your methods -- supporting the 2.1.x branch until 2.2 has proven to be commerically reliable is a good idea. Having it supported by "FreeBSD.ORG" is mandatory. I just strongly disagree that Jordan, Nate, et al *must* be responsible for this. There has been much heat thrown about this topic lately, with exactly *no* light, and I am really growing tired of it. I am also tiring of reading your diatribes against Nate; you seem to have forgotten that he is doing this voluntarily. Even if he no longer cares to assist 2.1.x users, what gives you the right to publicly chastise him for this attitude? On the other hand, your response to my rather sharply worded message is quite heartening. As I suggested earlier, talk to Jordan and work something out so that *you* can continue to support security patches to the 2.1.x tree: o Gather together others who will help you, perhaps from the ISP community. O Create a mechanism for distributing patches to those who don't have disk space to keep the entire source tree on-line. o Create a patch kit. o Get some people with resources to test it. o *NOW* get it branded as an official part of FreeBSD, and put onto the master ftp server, wcarchive. Talk to Jordan and get something worked out. In other words, solve the problem, and leave the ad-hominem attacks out of the mailing lists. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 5 17:09:57 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id RAA16816 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 17:09:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [204.214.4.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA16811 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 17:09:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from bonsai.hiwaay.net by fly.HiWAAY.net; (8.8.4/1.1.8.2/21Sep95-1003PM) id TAA32751; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 19:09:51 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <32A7723E.41C67EA6@hiwaay.net> Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 19:09:18 -0600 From: Steve Price X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Going insane with X References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi again, Ok, I finally figured it out. Here goes. steve[~]$ xmodmap -e "keysym Backspace = BackSpace" xmodmap: commandline:0: bad keysym target key symbol 'Backspace' xmodmap: 1 error encountered, aborting. steve[~]$ xmodmap -pke | grep "Delete" keycode 22 = Delete keycode 129 = Delete steve[~]$ xmodmap -e "keycode 22 = BackSpace" steve[~]$ my_motif_program_that_now_works Thanks for everybody's suggestions and patience whilst I spew forth braindead questions. :) Steve From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 5 18:31:31 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id SAA20394 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 18:31:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA20389 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 18:31:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id NAA25079; Fri, 6 Dec 1996 13:01:12 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199612060231.NAA25079@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Installation: still not perfect In-Reply-To: <199612051211.NAA07356@freebie.lemis.de> from Greg Lehey at "Dec 5, 96 01:11:08 pm" To: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 13:01:10 +1030 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey stands accused of saying: > > > > The HDA in the Sharp units we have here at work even have a little > > sticker on them indicating that they were loaded with it at the > > factory; sheesh! > > Yup, so did mine. That's reasonable enough: after all, they need to > be able to recognize them at the factory. Um, from what? I'd presume that they all have W95 on them 8( 8( 8( > > I even followed the instructions in the Intel envelope that comes > > with the stickers (two little stickers and ten pages of instructions > > in six languages on where on the case they should be put; only in > > the computer industry...) so far as was possible. > > You're lucky. I have to peel mine off the notebook. Oh, I do that too; we just used to buy Pentiums (currently using AMD K5's) and the stuff comes in the box 8) > Greg > -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 6 00:26:38 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id AAA06658 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Dec 1996 00:26:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id AAA06642 for ; Fri, 6 Dec 1996 00:26:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.2/8.6.9) id DAA07056 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 6 Dec 1996 03:26:39 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199612060826.DAA07056@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Benchmark for fun -- with some musings To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 03:26:39 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Take a look at this iozone output -- the iozone program had to be modified to have reasonable precision though. This is with *commodity* hardware, suitably tuned for max perf. Other OSes might be better or worse, and I am NOT posting this to compare or compete with anyone, but gosh, imagine these numbers even 3yrs ago! 5-6yrs ago I was using SVR3, with 100K/sec I/O!!! System: P6DNF (single proc) running at 233MHz, 256K cache, 48M EDO, WD caviar 3.1GB. (Lots more on the system, but this is all that is important.) Imagine that this system can probably be put together for < $3K!!! John IOZONE: Performance Test of Sequential File I/O -- V2.01 (10/21/94) By Bill Norcott Operating System: POSIX 1003.1-1990 -- using fsync() IOZONE: auto-test mode MB reclen bytes/sec written bytes/sec read 1 512 4387568 56293554 1 1024 5172991 87724950 1 2048 5167308 120443277 1 4096 5166416 137626038 1 8192 5162932 151638475 2 512 5908351 55218716 2 1024 6326956 87893691 2 2048 6323466 121454413 2 4096 6323561 138398008 2 8192 6323293 153626103 4 512 6595190 56506465 4 1024 7121542 88228704 4 2048 7115755 121514396 4 4096 7115418 138329993 4 8192 7117819 154123415 8 512 6860180 50858873 8 1024 7134212 75053829 8 2048 7580278 96543926 8 4096 7577593 107075515 8 8192 7584704 116214584 16 512 7039209 49666118 16 1024 7480791 72336477 16 2048 7713070 92858030 16 4096 7836916 102083477 16 8192 7442488 110356810 Completed series of tests From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 6 09:44:26 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id JAA02239 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Dec 1996 09:44:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id JAA02226 for ; Fri, 6 Dec 1996 09:44:19 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Lehey Received: from freebie.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0vW4IX-000QrKC; Fri, 6 Dec 96 18:42 MET Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.de (8.8.4/8.6.12) id RAA02091 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 6 Dec 1996 17:51:55 +0100 (MET) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Message-Id: <199612061651.RAA02091@freebie.lemis.de> Subject: I'll be in Silicon Valley next week... To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 16:35:15 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'm going to spend a little over a week in Cupertino, starting next Thursday (the 12th). Are any FreeBSD-heads interested in getting together? Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 6 10:04:56 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA03462 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Dec 1996 10:04:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id KAA03429; Fri, 6 Dec 1996 10:04:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id IAA04646 ; Fri, 6 Dec 1996 08:15:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.2/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA13850; Fri, 6 Dec 1996 18:21:43 +0200 (EET) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 18:21:43 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Nate Williams cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/net getservent.c In-Reply-To: <199612051845.LAA17095@rocky.mt.sri.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 5 Dec 1996, Nate Williams wrote: > Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > > Everyone please call ParaSoft today and say "I will buy 57 copies of > > Insure++ tomorrow, but first I want a FreeBSD version." :-) > > How much is it? > >From http://www.parasoft.com/press/ins3.htm - For all Unix systems - $1995 for single machine licence. More than twice that I could give out to get it, anyways. Sander > > Nate > From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 6 11:05:07 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA06154 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Dec 1996 11:05:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA06140; Fri, 6 Dec 1996 11:04:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA00401; Fri, 6 Dec 1996 11:04:55 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199612061904.LAA00401@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/net getservent.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Dec 1996 18:21:43 +0200." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 11:04:55 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I just got in touch with Parasoft and they claim that their BSDI version does not work on FreeBSD. So I am going to try to persuade them to let me try their BSDI version. Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 6 13:22:04 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA11521 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Dec 1996 13:22:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id NAA11514 for ; Fri, 6 Dec 1996 13:22:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA22521; Fri, 6 Dec 1996 14:21:22 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 14:21:22 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199612062121.OAA22521@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: Greg Lehey Cc: chat@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Chat) Subject: Re: I'll be in Silicon Valley next week... In-Reply-To: <199612061651.RAA02091@freebie.lemis.de> References: <199612061651.RAA02091@freebie.lemis.de> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I'm going to spend a little over a week in Cupertino, starting next > Thursday (the 12th). Are any FreeBSD-heads interested in getting > together? I could get together Thursday night, but I'm heading back home Friday noon. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 6 14:00:28 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA13098 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Dec 1996 14:00:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from DNS.Lamb.net (root@DNS.Lamb.net [206.169.44.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA13093 for ; Fri, 6 Dec 1996 14:00:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from Gatekeeper.Lamb.net (ulf@gatekeeper.Lamb.net [207.90.181.2]) by DNS.Lamb.net (8.8.3/8.8.2) with ESMTP id OAA09008; Fri, 6 Dec 1996 14:01:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from ulf@localhost) by Gatekeeper.Lamb.net (8.8.3/8.7.6) id NAA20160; Fri, 6 Dec 1996 13:59:36 -0800 (PST) From: Ulf Zimmermann Message-Id: <199612062159.NAA20160@Gatekeeper.Lamb.net> Subject: Re: I'll be in Silicon Valley next week... To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 13:59:36 -0800 (PST) Cc: grog@lemis.de, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199612062121.OAA22521@rocky.mt.sri.com> from Nate Williams at "Dec 6, 96 02:21:22 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I'm going to spend a little over a week in Cupertino, starting next > > Thursday (the 12th). Are any FreeBSD-heads interested in getting > > together? > > I could get together Thursday night, but I'm heading back home Friday > noon. > > > Nate > And I am flying off at 6:30 pm on thrusday to germany. Ulf. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-769-2936 Alameda Networks, Inc. | http://www.Alameda.net From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 6 18:23:32 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id SAA24811 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Dec 1996 18:23:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA24805 for ; Fri, 6 Dec 1996 18:23:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA19345; Fri, 6 Dec 1996 18:23:27 -0800 (PST) To: Amancio Hasty cc: chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/net getservent.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Dec 1996 11:04:55 PST." <199612061904.LAA00401@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 18:23:27 -0800 Message-ID: <19342.849925407@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I just got in touch with Parasoft and they claim that their BSDI > version does not work on FreeBSD. So I am going to try to persuade them They are correct. :-( Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 6 18:38:39 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id SAA25384 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Dec 1996 18:38:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu (hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.43]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id SAA25378; Fri, 6 Dec 1996 18:38:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id VAA17811; Fri, 6 Dec 1996 21:38:27 -0500 Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 21:38:27 -0500 Message-Id: <199612070238.VAA17811@hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: jmb@freefall.freebsd.org CC: chat@freefall.freebsd.org In-reply-to: <199610082026.NAA22504@freefall.freebsd.org> (jmb@freefall.freebsd.org) Subject: Re: Internet II is coming... (fwd) From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu X-Windows: The first fully modular software disaster. Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Do you know what became of this? >From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" >Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 13:26:49 -0700 (PDT) >X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] >Content-Type: text >Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG >X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Precedence: bulk > >Yakov Rekhter wrote: >> From owner-nanog@merit.edu Tue Oct 8 10:17:44 1996 >> fyi >> - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >From www.nytimes.com: >> >> October 7, 1996 >> >> University Internet Proposed >> >> By LAWRENCE M. FISHER >> >> A group of 34 research universities agreed last week >> to create a new national network for higher >> education, to be called Internet II, which will offer >> higher speeds and more reliable service than the current >> Internet. >> >> As described in the Oct. 11 issue of The Chronicle of >> Higher Education, the new network is intended to deliver >> the vastly higher speeds needed to allow the >> simultaneous transmission of voice, video and data. >> Internet II would give researchers the bandwidth they >> need to enable distance learning, digital libraries and >> on-line collaborative research. >> >> The organizers of Internet II say its advanced >> capabilities will ultimately become available on the >> existing Internet as commercial service providers find >> ways to offer more bandwidth -- a bigger pipeline to >> transmit a high volume of information -- at attractive >> prices. The research universities have agreed to >> establish and finance a new organization, with >> membership fees to help create the network. They also >> hope to get financing from telecommunications and >> computer companies, as well as from the federal >> government. >> >> "What we're trying to do is solve a whole bunch of >> technical problems having to do with making the Internet >> operate at a higher level of functionality," said >> Michael Roberts, who has been working on the Internet II >> proposal and is vice president of Educom, a consortium >> of nearly 600 colleges and 100 companies that promote >> computing in higher education. "What everybody needs is >> something on the order of 10 times more bandwidth." >> >> According to The Chronicle of Higher Education, the >> decision to move forward with the plan was made during a >> meeting of campus technology officers in Chicago last >> week. Computer science specialists from Pennsylvania >> State and Stanford universities and the Universities of >> California, Chicago, Michigan and North Carolina will >> play leading roles in the network's development. >> > > >-- >Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG >FreeBSD--4.4BSD Unix for PC clones, source included. http://www.freebsd.org/ >PGP 2.6.2 Fingerprint: 31 57 41 56 06 C1 40 13 C5 1C E3 E5 DC 62 0E FB > -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Fourth law of computing: Anything that can go wro .signature: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 6 19:18:56 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id TAA26564 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Dec 1996 19:18:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from superior.truenorth.org (ppp028-sm2.sirius.com [205.134.231.28]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id TAA26559 for ; Fri, 6 Dec 1996 19:18:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.truenorth.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA07830; Fri, 6 Dec 1996 19:17:40 -0800 (PST) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <199612070317.TAA07830@superior.truenorth.org> Subject: Re: I'll be in Silicon Valley next week... In-Reply-To: <199612061651.RAA02091@freebie.lemis.de> from Greg Lehey at "Dec 5, 96 04:35:15 pm" To: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 19:17:39 -0800 (PST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: jgrosch@sirius.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I'm going to spend a little over a week in Cupertino, starting next >Thursday (the 12th). Are any FreeBSD-heads interested in getting >together? > I'm always up for a get together. I work in Cupertino so I might be able to scout out a few places to try. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Laugh while you can, monkey boy ! | FreeBSD 2.1.6 jgrosch@sirius.com | - John Warfin - | UNIX for the masses From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 6 21:25:35 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id VAA04229 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Dec 1996 21:25:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from hamby1.lightside.net (hamby1.lightside.net [207.67.176.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id VAA04216 for ; Fri, 6 Dec 1996 21:25:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jehamby@localhost) by hamby1.lightside.net (8.8.3/8.8.2) with SMTP id QAA00250; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 16:32:21 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: hamby1.lightside.net: jehamby owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 16:32:20 -0800 (PST) From: Jake Hamby X-Sender: jehamby@hamby1 To: Greg Lehey cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: I'll be in Silicon Valley next week... In-Reply-To: <199612061651.RAA02091@freebie.lemis.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'll be up in Menlo Park on the 12th through 14th for the Be Developer kitchen. So sure, I'd love to have a FreeBSD get-together that week! -- Jake On Thu, 5 Dec 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > I'm going to spend a little over a week in Cupertino, starting next > Thursday (the 12th). Are any FreeBSD-heads interested in getting > together? > > Greg > > > From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 7 01:12:55 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id BAA17594 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 01:12:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id BAA17589 for ; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 01:12:51 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Lehey Received: from freebie.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0vWImH-000QYRC; Sat, 7 Dec 96 10:10 MET Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.de (8.8.4/8.6.12) id JAA05424; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 09:49:35 +0100 (MET) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Message-Id: <199612070849.JAA05424@freebie.lemis.de> Subject: Re: I'll be in Silicon Valley next week... In-Reply-To: from Jake Hamby at "Nov 30, 96 04:32:20 pm" To: jehamby@lightside.com (Jake Hamby) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 09:49:34 +0100 (MET) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 30 Nov 1996, Jake Hamby writes: > I'll be up in Menlo Park on the 12th through 14th for the Be Developer > kitchen. So sure, I'd love to have a FreeBSD get-together that week! > > On Thu, 5 Dec 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> I'm going to spend a little over a week in Cupertino, starting next >> Thursday (the 12th). Are any FreeBSD-heads interested in getting >> together? Wow, you found out about this before I did. But the date sounds good. What do other people think about the evening of the 13th or 14th? Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 7 07:24:25 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id HAA28376 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 07:24:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id HAA28371 for ; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 07:24:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id QAA10779; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 16:23:53 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id QAA16008; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 16:23:47 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id QAA20092; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 16:03:01 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199612071503.QAA20092@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: FreeBSD etc. To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 16:03:01 +0100 (MET) Cc: rkw@dataplex.net, softweyr@xmission.com (Softweyr LLC) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199612060018.RAA04841@xmission.xmission.com> from Softweyr LLC at "Dec 5, 96 05:18:10 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Softweyr LLC wrote: > As I suggested earlier, talk to Jordan and work > something out so that *you* can continue to support security patches to > the 2.1.x tree: > > o Gather together others who will help you, perhaps from the ISP > community. > > O Create a mechanism for distributing patches to those who don't have > disk space to keep the entire source tree on-line. > > o Create a patch kit. > > o Get some people with resources to test it. > > o *NOW* get it branded as an official part of FreeBSD, and put onto > the master ftp server, wcarchive. I think if (and when) topics 1 through 4 are covered, topic 5 is not a big deal. Excellent summary! -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 7 07:54:36 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id HAA29200 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 07:54:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id HAA29193 for ; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 07:54:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id QAA11354; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 16:54:11 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id QAA16657; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 16:54:10 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id QAA20564; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 16:43:17 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199612071543.QAA20564@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Installation: still not perfect To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 16:43:16 +0100 (MET) Cc: grog@lemis.de, jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <4929.849755388@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Dec 4, 96 07:09:48 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > 3Com 3C585C). It also sported a sticker proclaiming "Designed for > > Microsoft Windows 95%", which I found convenient to put on my > > waste paper basket. > > God, what a market opportunity. Windows95 stickers for trash cans. I > like it. Maybe you could even put "Internet Ready" somewhere on the > sticker and go for full coverage. The Toshiba notebook of our company also came with ``Pentium inside'' and ``Designed for Winloose 95'' stickers on it. I've immediately went to my machine, printed a small daemon with the words ``Runs FreeBSD'', and put this one beneath them. :-) (Too bad we don't have a color printer yet...) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 7 09:32:30 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id JAA01555 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 09:32:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from pdx1.world.net (pdx1.world.net [192.243.32.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA01550 for ; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 09:32:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from suburbia.net (suburbia.net [203.4.184.1]) by pdx1.world.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA26116 for ; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 09:32:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 2316 invoked by uid 110); 7 Dec 1996 17:31:53 -0000 MBOX-Line: From richard@a42.deep-thought.org Sat Dec 07 17:16:06 1996 remote from suburbia.net Delivered-To: proff@suburbia.net Received: (qmail 2190 invoked from network); 7 Dec 1996 17:16:04 -0000 Received: from a42.deep-thought.org (203.4.184.227) by suburbia.net with SMTP; 7 Dec 1996 17:16:04 -0000 Received: from a42.deep-thought.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a42.deep-thought.org (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA05740 for ; Sun, 8 Dec 1996 04:19:29 +1100 Message-Id: <199612071719.EAA05740@a42.deep-thought.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.7 05/05/96 To: proff@suburbia.net Subject: A satisfied linux customer (not ;) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 08 Dec 1996 04:19:29 +1100 From: Richard Jones Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ------- Forwarded Message >From redhat-list-request@redhat.com Sun Dec 8 02:52:00 1996 Received: from mail2.redhat.com (mail2.redhat.com [199.183.24.247]) by a42.deep-thought.org (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA05221 for ; Sun, 8 Dec 1996 02:49:56 +1100 Received: (qmail 17124 invoked by uid 501); 7 Dec 1996 15:46:58 -0000 Resent-Date: 7 Dec 1996 15:46:57 -0000 Resent-Cc: recipient list not shown: ; MBOX-Line: From redhat-list-request@redhat.com Sat Dec 7 10:46:57 1996 Message-Id: <199612071546.AAA15380@mail.sphere.ad.jp> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Lance Cummings" To: redhat-list@redhat.com Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 00:46:02 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Why I'm probably headed back to Microsoft . . . Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42a) Resent-Message-ID: <"oIZp31.0.OB4.n5Pgo"@mail2.redhat.com> Resent-From: redhat-list@redhat.com Reply-To: redhat-list@redhat.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/2467 X-Loop: redhat-list@redhat.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: redhat-list-request@redhat.com X-URL: http://www.redhat.com I know this isn't going to shake up the Linux world very much, but I pretty sure I'm headed back to Microsoft. I'm giving Linux until December 31 to reveal enough of its secrets to me to make it worth the trouble it is to try and figure it out. That'll give me slightly more than 2 months invested in learning an OS. Did I say "learning"? Sorry, I meant just getting the stupid thing to do anything useful besides play XTetris. Pretty poor ROI at this point, lemme tell ya. I don't know how to do anything, and most people point me in directions that seem to lead nowhere. Read a man page, they say. They're completely nuts. The man pages need to be *thrown away* and rewritten from top to bottom. I'll be happy to do it, but somebody is going to have to translate them into English first. Really, for a non programmer coming from a point and click environment, they're about as useful as a mug of warm spittle. Read a man page(!) Might as well tell me to read Swahili, and right now. I bought Running Linux. Doesn't do much to help me set up a ppp connection with Colgate, I'm afraid. The HOWTO? Well, if someone would translate it into English -- non-programmer, non-Linux user English, that is -- it might be more helpful I suppose. I've read the thing a few times. Wow. Is this really supposed to help me with Colgate??? I bought Unix For Dummies. I feel kinda dumb for having bought it. I bought Linux Companion, too. Seems nice if you're logged into a multi-user system. Doesn't help me so much with Colgate. I mean I'm sure I'll need to know about STDIN, STDOUT, STDERR and Redirection one of these days, but first, I'd like to know how to stop almost every X window that opens from opening so the damn control buttons are behind the damn always-on-top, multiple-window control panel. May the hard drive of the person who came up with that one freeze up completely on the next boot. I bought Colgate -- with its promise of out-of-the-box functionality and customer support. I'm sure it functions pretty well for some people out of the box. I spent 2 weeks just figuring out how to get the mouse to work "properly." Who needs this kind of grief? Did anyone get a load of the PPP "instructions" that come with the "manual"? Are they kidding, or what? Half of Colgate seems broken. Every time I startx, I get a core dump. Hey, am I having fun yet? The errata list seems to grow like a virus. If Colgate was a car, it would have been recalled by now. So many menu items that show on my Metro-X menus don't do anything when I click on them that I'm convinced there really *are* no apps for Linux. RedHat is no help whatsoever. I'm saving my first and second ticket numbers that I got from their support bot. They're dated Nov 1 and 2. They're still unanswered. Maybe I can blackmail RedHat in a couple of years into buying them back from me for 50 bucks. Has anyone pulled up the Help with FVWM file from the Metro-X main menu. Now there's a good joke if I ever saw one. Really, honestly, read the "Overview" and pretend you don't know anything about Linux. The only thing you learn from reading that document is that you either did or did not major in computer science, based on whether you can understand what the hell they're talking about. Finally, I may be just dreaming, but I don't think I'm too dull to get this. I don't think Columbia and Georgetown thought I was, either, when they handed me my diplomas. I can follow directions in the English, French and Japanese languages pretty well, although I will admit to being at my best in English. So what's wrong with Linux that I can't read a book for an hour or so and then hook up to my ISP and download my mail in Linux? I mean you guys can knock Microsoft all you want, and sometimes with good reason. But when I want to *do* something in Windows, the OS doesn't seem to fight me tooth and nail to stop me from learning how to do it. I've seen a lot of cleaver tags about Windows on the end of some of the messages on this list. I even thought of one myself. Windoze: Because Bill Gates obviously thinks it *should* take 4 or 5 minutes to format a floppy. But I've also thought of one for Linux. Linux: Because why the heck would anyone want to do *anything* with a computer the easy way? Okay, I'm donning my flame-retardant BVDs now, so adjust the nozzles of your flame throwers as you wish. I'd prefer to stick with this beast, but I'm gonna need more help than "Why don't you go read a man page or a HOWTO?" What the hell do I have to do to get my email in Linux? (I was getting some off-list help with this, but my helper seems to have given up -- I suspect because my machine didn't do what he said it should when I typed in the commands he advised.) Why does Ghostview give me an error message every time I try to open a file? (Yes, I've downloaded and installed *all* the errata fixes.) Why does the startx command result in a huge core file every time I issue it? Lastly, am I *really* gonna have to log out and log back in as root every time I just wanna shutdown? Blow me off or help me as you wish. Frustrated and ready to toss in the towel in Tokyo. Lance - -- PLEASE read the Red Hat FAQ, Tips, Errata and the MAILING LIST ARCHIVES! ________________________________________________________________________ http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-FAQ http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-Errata http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-Tips http://www.redhat.com/mailing-lists ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe: mail -s unsubscribe redhat-list-request@redhat.com < /dev/null ------- End of Forwarded Message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 7 12:55:18 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id MAA10081 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 12:55:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA10076 for ; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 12:55:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id VAA17987; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 21:53:34 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id VAA23308; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 21:53:33 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id VAA22583; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 21:50:11 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199612072050.VAA22583@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging To: chat@FreeBSD.org Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 21:50:11 +0100 (MET) Cc: dkelly@hiwaay.net Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199612030250.UAA25677@brasil.moneng.mei.com> from Joe Greco at "Dec 2, 96 08:50:12 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Joe Greco wrote: > What are you bellyaching about!! I have.. a.. > > 386SX/16 with 3MB RAM (2 1x9's plus 4 256kX4's) > Any takers? I can (barely) think of worse configurations. Surely > somebody has one! Hmpf. Well, you'll get me to the point to test my 2 MB machine at work again! Some day... ;-) Last time i tested, the kernel had a bad bug that caused the KVA space to suddenly exhaust on such a small machine. Hence i've only got it into single-user mode, any multi-user attempt or other work than just a single shell quickly panicked the box. This kernel bug has been fixed since, so i might try again. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 7 13:24:32 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA10789 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 13:24:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id NAA10784 for ; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 13:24:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id WAA18686; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 22:23:58 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id WAA23840; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 22:23:57 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id WAA22796; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 22:15:44 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199612072115.WAA22796@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Slowest machine [Was: TCP/IP ick!] To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 22:15:44 +0100 (MET) Cc: softweyr@xmission.com (Softweyr LLC) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199612031551.IAA20594@xmission.xmission.com> from Softweyr LLC at "Dec 3, 96 08:51:55 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Softweyr LLC wrote: > My sister needs a machine to run educational programs for her kids, > so "boat anchor" is going to her. I'll be replacing it with "danforth", > a 486 DX/33 with a 340 Mb IDE drive. It'll be a much more > capable server (probably) but it just won't have the character. ;^) Sigh, yep, the good ol' machines are dying away... My old 386/sx16 scratchbox with its proud 6 MB of RAM has been upgraded recently to a (donated) 386/dx40, and i had to add another couple of Meg of RAM then... Of course, i've kept the old MDA, plus the (For Tests Only) QIC-40 drive, plus the Wangtek 5150EQ QIC-24 drive, plus the old AHA-1540*A*. ;-) Ah, forgot, there's a fine WD8003 ethernet card in it... -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 7 15:44:19 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id PAA16665 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 15:44:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id PAA16654; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 15:44:16 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199612072344.PAA16654@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Internet II is coming... (fwd) To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 15:44:16 -0800 (PST) Cc: chat@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199612070238.VAA17811@hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu> from "Joel Ray Holveck" at Dec 6, 96 09:38:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joel Ray Holveck wrote: > > Do you know what became of this? > i have heard nothing since this initial announcement ;( > >From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" > >Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 13:26:49 -0700 (PDT) > >X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] > >Content-Type: text > >Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > >X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >Precedence: bulk > > > >Yakov Rekhter wrote: > >> From owner-nanog@merit.edu Tue Oct 8 10:17:44 1996 > >> fyi > >> - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> >From www.nytimes.com: > >> > >> October 7, 1996 > >> > >> University Internet Proposed > >> > >> By LAWRENCE M. FISHER > >> > >> A group of 34 research universities agreed last week > >> to create a new national network for higher > >> education, to be called Internet II, which will offer > >> higher speeds and more reliable service than the current From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 7 19:43:25 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id TAA23633 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 19:43:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from hamby1.lightside.net (hamby1.lightside.net [207.67.176.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id TAA23628 for ; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 19:43:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jehamby@localhost) by hamby1.lightside.net (8.8.3/8.8.2) with SMTP id TAA00359; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 19:43:17 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: hamby1.lightside.net: jehamby owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 19:43:15 -0800 (PST) From: Jake Hamby X-Sender: jehamby@hamby1 To: Greg Lehey cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: I'll be in Silicon Valley next week... In-Reply-To: <199612070849.JAA05424@freebie.lemis.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Oops, I think the battery in my PC is dying. For the last few months, I'll have a few-days-old day when I turn it on, and I'm too lazy/busy to buy a replacement. No, I didn't go back in time and read your message before you posted it. :-) -- Jake On Sat, 7 Dec 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Sat, 30 Nov 1996, Jake Hamby writes: > > I'll be up in Menlo Park on the 12th through 14th for the Be Developer > > kitchen. So sure, I'd love to have a FreeBSD get-together that week! > > > > On Thu, 5 Dec 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > >> I'm going to spend a little over a week in Cupertino, starting next > >> Thursday (the 12th). Are any FreeBSD-heads interested in getting > >> together? > > Wow, you found out about this before I did. But the date sounds good. > What do other people think about the evening of the 13th or 14th? > > Greg > > > From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 7 19:56:45 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id TAA24065 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 19:56:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from hamby1.lightside.net (hamby1.lightside.net [207.67.176.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id TAA24046 for ; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 19:56:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jehamby@localhost) by hamby1.lightside.net (8.8.3/8.8.2) with SMTP id TAA02475; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 19:56:31 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: hamby1.lightside.net: jehamby owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 19:56:30 -0800 (PST) From: Jake Hamby X-Sender: jehamby@hamby1 To: Joerg Wunsch cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, dkelly@hiwaay.net Subject: Slowest machine [was Re: TCP/IP...] In-Reply-To: <199612072050.VAA22583@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Talking about old crappy hardware, I was just reading a notice on SCO XENIX. Apparently, SCO recently released an update to fix XENIX for the year 2000, and they said this was probably the last update ever to XENIX. SCO doesn't want to support it anymore because, among other braindamage, it is nearly impossible to find hardware OLD and SLOW enough to run it! Some highlights: * Fastest computer it will run on is a Pentium 90 (and then only if you turn external cache off!) * Maximum RAM supported: 16MB * Largest hard drive supported: 540MB IDE, or 1GB SCSI The thrust of the article was that even buying the cheapest Far East no-name vendors products from a computer swap meet, you won't find old enough hardware to run XENIX. So, maybe if you hold onto those 386SX systems you can sell them for big bucks to some desparate XENIX luser. For more insightful comments on SCO, see my next post to hackers, "Help I've been SCOed!" about my day trying to upgrade one to Solaris/x86, and how we can market FreeBSD to SCO users. -- Jake On Sat, 7 Dec 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > As Joe Greco wrote: > > > What are you bellyaching about!! I have.. a.. > > > > 386SX/16 with 3MB RAM (2 1x9's plus 4 256kX4's) > > > Any takers? I can (barely) think of worse configurations. Surely > > somebody has one! > > Hmpf. Well, you'll get me to the point to test my 2 MB machine at > work again! Some day... ;-) > > Last time i tested, the kernel had a bad bug that caused the KVA space > to suddenly exhaust on such a small machine. Hence i've only got it > into single-user mode, any multi-user attempt or other work than just > a single shell quickly panicked the box. This kernel bug has been > fixed since, so i might try again. > > -- > cheers, J"org > > joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE > Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) > > From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 7 21:39:49 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id VAA27397 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 21:39:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id VAA27390; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 21:39:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.2/8.6.9) id AAA00263; Sun, 8 Dec 1996 00:39:31 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199612080539.AAA00263@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Help, I've been SCOed! To: jehamby@lightside.com Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 00:39:31 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org, jkh@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Jake Hamby" at Dec 7, 96 08:37:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I hope you found these comments useful and relevant. Overall, I'd say > FreeBSD has done as good (and often better) job than many commercial UNIX > vendors have done, as my experience today proved! BTW, now I know that if > I had spent $10 on "Free SCO", it would've been wasted money. Rather to > find that out with someone else paying me, than vice versa! :-) Now, when > Free UnixWare comes out, that I might think about buying. Comments? > (After this, it would be a good idea to move this to chat?) Right now, I have 3 OSes on my system (actually 2.5, if you count Win95 correctly.) FreeBSD, WinNT, and Win95. I plan to set up a FreeBSD only system for my router, and of course on my main machine run FreeBSD normally. I will probably plan to setup Linux on my machine permanently also (I run it once in a while.) I have absolutely no reason to run SCO. Frankly, I like WinNT with the Cygnus/GNU tools much better than SCO, even though WinNT 4.0 is very very very dog slow!!! 1) I agree that the install is painfully slow (taking 1hr of frobbing with the CDROM.) 2) You have to forage around for an NCR driver on Symbios' web site. It appears that it is a common need for the end-customer to "hunt" around for drivers. 3) SCO is symlink hell. 4) SCO is license manager city. 5) Even typing in the serial numbers, etc is hard. Those are not easy things to type. Even Microsoft knows this (with their CD-KEY stuff.) I don't know why SCO is worried about piracy, because any competent big company with assets to loose is going to account for licenses at least approximately correctly. Additionally, small, single user situations can actually increase their commercial business, by increasing advocacy. 6) SCO isn't that awfully slow, with async metadata updates -- but if I needed that, I'd be better off (and faster) running Linux or FreeBSD with the async option... 7) From a hacker standpoint, SCO is boring (IMO.) Looking at the above, and knowing how SVR3 was before SCO got ahold of it, and after. I sure hope that they didn't (actually, in a way I hope that they did :-)) do the same thing to SVR4 with Unixware. John From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 7 23:11:48 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id XAA29833 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 23:11:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from vienna.arpa.com (root@vienna.arpa.com [207.170.140.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id XAA29828 for ; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 23:11:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rob@localhost) by vienna.arpa.com (8.8.4/8.8.3/Gissy/vienna3.4) id CAA03370; Sun, 8 Dec 1996 02:11:52 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199612080711.CAA03370@vienna.arpa.com> Subject: Re: Slowest machine [Was: TCP/IP ick!] In-Reply-To: <199612072115.WAA22796@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Dec 7, 96 10:15:44 pm" To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 02:11:51 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org, softweyr@xmission.com From: Rob Misiak-Rishaw X-No-Archive: yes X-Personal-Home-Page: http://www.arpa.com/~rob/ X-FYI: All mail sent from aol.com is /dev/null'ed X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL26 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch wrote ... > > Sigh, yep, the good ol' machines are dying away... My old 386/sx16 > scratchbox with its proud 6 MB of RAM has been upgraded recently to a > (donated) 386/dx40, and i had to add another couple of Meg of RAM > then... Of course, i've kept the old MDA, plus the (For Tests Only) > QIC-40 drive, plus the Wangtek 5150EQ QIC-24 drive, plus the old > AHA-1540*A*. ;-) Ah, forgot, there's a fine WD8003 ethernet card in > it... A couple months ago, a friend of mine decided that he wanted to have the slowest machine on the internet, and set up his old Sun 2/120 :) Average ping time from the ethernet is 120ms. The 2/120 takes up roughly half as much power as the rest of the machines on the entire LAN do combined :) The slowest machine that I have at my house, besides the Windows machine :) is a Sun 3/60. It has 20MB RAM in it (had to use 20 1 meg SIMMs!), and it makes more noise than my microwave oven. I'm not planning on replacing it any time soon, though. People collect old stamps, old coins, old furniture... why not old computers? ;) Rob From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 7 23:41:18 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id XAA00817 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 23:41:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from hamby1.lightside.net (hamby1.lightside.net [207.67.176.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id XAA00812; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 23:41:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jehamby@localhost) by hamby1.lightside.net (8.8.3/8.8.2) with SMTP id XAA00203; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 23:38:33 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: hamby1.lightside.net: jehamby owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 23:38:32 -0800 (PST) From: Jake Hamby X-Sender: jehamby@hamby1 Reply-To: Jake Hamby To: "John S. Dyson" cc: chat@freebsd.org, jkh@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Help, I've been SCOed! In-Reply-To: <199612080539.AAA00263@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 8 Dec 1996, John S. Dyson wrote: > Looking at the above, and knowing how SVR3 was before SCO got ahold > of it, and after. I sure hope that they didn't (actually, in a way > I hope that they did :-)) do the same thing to SVR4 with Unixware. I know what you mean. UnixWare sounds interesting, and performance seems to have been their big focus (esp. Oracle performance), but I guess I'll just have to order the Free UnixWare CD when it comes out in January and see for myself. Reading your quote, and remembering my own experiences with SCO OpenServer, I think it's even scarier to imagine what Gemini will look like (the "best-of-breed" cross between OpenServer and UnixWare due in 1997). FWIW, I _was_ able to get FoxPro to run successfully under Linux, so I'll let them know, but I don't think it gets them any closer to a long-term migration path because Linux isn't going to run, e.g. Oracle. UnixWare might be a viable migration path, but I have a feeling that after their previous experiences, they're not going to want to give any more money to SCO! As for FreeBSD, I wasn't able to get FoxPro to work, but ironially it did get farther than Solaris/x86 (it prints an error message about "Too many files open" and exits when in fact only a few files were open). Linux's iBCS2 module even claims to support XENIX binaries, so that answers that question. Also, for those of you interested in ELF, they have freeware Solaris-compatible ELF versions of libc on tsx-11 also. -- Jake From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 7 23:51:14 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id XAA01058 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 23:51:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from hamby1.lightside.net (hamby1.lightside.net [207.67.176.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id XAA01053 for ; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 23:51:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jehamby@localhost) by hamby1.lightside.net (8.8.3/8.8.2) with SMTP id XAA00228; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 23:49:52 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: hamby1.lightside.net: jehamby owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 23:49:50 -0800 (PST) From: Jake Hamby X-Sender: jehamby@hamby1 To: Rob Misiak-Rishaw cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, chat@freebsd.org, softweyr@xmission.com Subject: Re: Slowest machine [Was: TCP/IP ick!] In-Reply-To: <199612080711.CAA03370@vienna.arpa.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 8 Dec 1996, Rob Misiak-Rishaw wrote: > The slowest machine that I have at my house, besides the Windows machine :) > is a Sun 3/60. It has 20MB RAM in it (had to use 20 1 meg SIMMs!), and it > makes more noise than my microwave oven. I'm not planning on replacing > it any time soon, though. People collect old stamps, old coins, old > furniture... why not old computers? ;) What OS are you running on it? If SunOS, maybe you should try NetBSD? As for collecting old computers, I agree completely! I still have my Commodore 64 and Amiga, and I still fire them up every so often! My computer club at university has an old Sun386i, which is kind of funny. For those of you who haven't heard of it, it's a 20MHz 386DX with ISA and some proprietary bus, which runs SunOS (the latest version is 4.0.2 and comes on floppies), and can run DOS 3.3 programs with an old version of Merge. Ours has 8MB RAM and a HUGE 340MB internal SCSI disk. All of the devices are Sun, not PC-standard (Sun keyboard, optical mouse, bwtwo framebuffer, etc.) It's in a heavy, but otherwise PC-shaped tower case. Apparently Sun was working on a 486i when they cancelled the project to focus all their efforts on SPARC. They probably shouldn't have, since they moved back to supporting x86 with Solaris later on. As for SunOS on the 386i, Sun tested some experimental things with it, that you won't find on SPARC or Sun-3. For example, there's a graphical login prompt (in SunView), and a forerunner to admintool. The annoying think about the OS is they went crazy with loopback mounts, just like e.g. SCO went crazy with symlinks, so you never really know where something should go. The other annoying thing is that they moved from a.out to COFF, but somehow brought along their Sun shared library format. This means that GCC can't be used to generate shared libraries, and the bundled cc is totally non-optimizing. I spent some time trying to figure out whether to upgrade gas to generate compatible GLOBAL_OFFSET_TABLES for Sun's ld, or patch GCC to generate compatible assembly for Sun's assembler. In the end, I wasn't able to get either working (I was trying to compile, of all things, X11R6 with shared libraries!), and the thing was SO damn slow, I just gave it to somebody else to play with. -- Jake