From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 8 00:30:19 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id AAA01932 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 8 Dec 1996 00:30:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from csd.cs.technion.ac.il (csd.cs.technion.ac.il [132.68.32.8]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id AAA01892 for ; Sun, 8 Dec 1996 00:29:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nadav@localhost) by csd.cs.technion.ac.il (8.6.11/8.6.10) id KAA12495; Sun, 8 Dec 1996 10:21:19 +0200 Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 10:21:19 +0200 (IST) From: Nadav Eiron X-Sender: nadav@csd To: Rob Misiak-Rishaw cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, chat@freebsd.org, softweyr@xmission.com Subject: Re: Slowest machine [Was: TCP/IP ick!] In-Reply-To: <199612080711.CAA03370@vienna.arpa.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 8 Dec 1996, Rob Misiak-Rishaw wrote: > A couple months ago, a friend of mine decided that he wanted to have > the slowest machine on the internet, and set up his old Sun 2/120 :) > Average ping time from the ethernet is 120ms. The 2/120 takes up > roughly half as much power as the rest of the machines on the entire LAN do > combined :) > > The slowest machine that I have at my house, besides the Windows machine :) > is a Sun 3/60. It has 20MB RAM in it (had to use 20 1 meg SIMMs!), and it > makes more noise than my microwave oven. I'm not planning on replacing > it any time soon, though. People collect old stamps, old coins, old > furniture... why not old computers? ;) > > Rob > > Bringing Suns into the picture, I'm writing this on a Sun386i with 16MB. I guess the CS department here at the Technion can berak many "slowest on the Internet" records. I think there must be about a hundred of those Suns here, and they are the work horses for us graduate students for things like email and LaTeX. Nadav From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 8 13:22:47 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA24283 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 8 Dec 1996 13:22:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu (toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu [128.120.56.188]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id NAA24272 for ; Sun, 8 Dec 1996 13:22:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from kongur (kongur.cs.ucdavis.edu) by toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu (4.1/UCD.CS.2.6) id AA13980; Sun, 8 Dec 96 13:22:40 PST Received: by kongur (SMI-8.6/UCDCS.SECLAB.Solaris2-2.1) id VAA13437; Sun, 8 Dec 1996 21:22:38 GMT Message-Id: Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 13:22:38 -0800 From: obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu (David E. O'Brien) To: jehamby@lightside.com (Jake Hamby) Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Slowest machine [Was: TCP/IP ick!] References: <199612080711.CAA03370@vienna.arpa.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.52 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Pgp-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 In-Reply-To: ; from Jake Hamby on Dec 7, 1996 23:49:50 -0800 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > My computer club at university has an old Sun386i, which is kind of funny. > For those of you who haven't heard of it, it's a 20MHz 386DX with ISA and Yep heard of them! I was on a project at a company for 1 year which was part of a bigger contract that put them in parts of the Pentagon and wrote much custom software for them. BTW, there are two models of them -- the 200 and 250 with the difference being the speed of the clock (20 MHz and 25 MHz) I've still got my archive of emails from the 386i-list. If you are interested, I can put it up for FTP. There was also an archive of binaries for it: X11R5pl25.sun386i.bin.tar.Z X11R5pl25.sun386i.man.tar.Z X11R5pl25.sun386i.readme gcc-2.4.5.sun386i.bin.tar.Z gzip-1.2.4.sun386i.bin.tar.Z ntalk.sun386i.src.tar.Z ppp-1.2.sun386i.bin.tar.Z ppp-1.2.sun386i.src.tar.Z tcsh-6.03.sun386i.bin.tar.Z xv-3.00a.sun386i.bin.tar.Z xv-3.00a.sun386i.src.tar.Z -- -- David (obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 8 13:46:12 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA25300 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 8 Dec 1996 13:46:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from hamby1.lightside.net (hamby1.lightside.net [207.67.176.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id NAA25294 for ; Sun, 8 Dec 1996 13:46:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jehamby@localhost) by hamby1.lightside.net (8.8.3/8.8.2) with SMTP id NAA00469; Sun, 8 Dec 1996 13:46:08 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: hamby1.lightside.net: jehamby owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 13:46:08 -0800 (PST) From: Jake Hamby X-Sender: jehamby@hamby1 To: "David E. O'Brien" cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Slowest machine [Was: TCP/IP ick!] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 8 Dec 1996, David E. O'Brien wrote: > > My computer club at university has an old Sun386i, which is kind of funny. > > For those of you who haven't heard of it, it's a 20MHz 386DX with ISA and > > Yep heard of them! I was on a project at a company for 1 year which was > part of a bigger contract that put them in parts of the Pentagon and > wrote much custom software for them. BTW, there are two models of them > -- the 200 and 250 with the difference being the speed of the clock (20 > MHz and 25 MHz) > > I've still got my archive of emails from the 386i-list. If you are > interested, I can put it up for FTP. There was also an archive of > binaries for it: It's already up for FTP somewhere, along with the entire SunOS 4.0.2 distribution. I think they have Sun's permission to distribute it, because it's so old, and because you can't really do anything _other_ than run it on a 386i. -- Jake From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 8 17:46:30 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id RAA07103 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 8 Dec 1996 17:46:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from deceased.hb.north.de (deceased.hb.north.de [194.94.232.249]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id RAA07094 for ; Sun, 8 Dec 1996 17:46:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from jelal.hb.north.de by deceased.hb.north.de with uucp (Smail3.2) id m0vWukg-0016O6C; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 02:43:26 +0100 (MET) Received: by jelal.hb.north.de (SMail-ST 0.95gcc/2.5+) id AA00374; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 02:16:00 +0100 (CET) Received: (from nox@localhost) by saturn.hb.north.de (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA01288; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 02:02:16 +0100 (MET) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 02:02:16 +0100 (MET) From: Juergen Lock Message-Id: <199612090102.CAA01288@saturn.hb.north.de> To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Subject: Re: Slowest machine [Was: TCP/IP ick!] In-Reply-To: <199612072115.WAA22796@uriah.heep.sax.de> References: <199612031551.IAA20594@xmission.xmission.com> Organization: none Cc: chat@freebsd.org, mint@terminator.rs.itd.umich.edu Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <199612072115.WAA22796@uriah.heep.sax.de> you write: >As Softweyr LLC wrote: > >> My sister needs a machine to run educational programs for her kids, >> so "boat anchor" is going to her. I'll be replacing it with "danforth", >> a 486 DX/33 with a 340 Mb IDE drive. It'll be a much more >> capable server (probably) but it just won't have the character. ;^) > >Sigh, yep, the good ol' machines are dying away... My old 386/sx16 >scratchbox with its proud 6 MB of RAM has been upgraded recently to a >(donated) 386/dx40, and i had to add another couple of Meg of RAM >then... Of course, i've kept the old MDA, plus the (For Tests Only) >QIC-40 drive, plus the Wangtek 5150EQ QIC-24 drive, plus the old >AHA-1540*A*. ;-) Ah, forgot, there's a fine WD8003 ethernet card in >it... :-) Here is another slow machine... Connected to jelal.hb.north.de. Escape character is '^]'. Welcome to Nowhere. An Atari MSTe running MiNT 1.12h2 (jelal ttyp1) login: (telnet to login: 5 seconds...) up until yesterday this was my main connection to the outside world, routing ppp and uucp over the modem... it was fast enough to keep the modem busy... some two weeks ago the isdn line finally arrived and since yesterday (finally...) my little subnet is moved to raw hdlc over isdn. but the uucp spool is still on it and now over isdn its getting rates not even that far away from perfect isdn speed! (one 64kbit B channel) maybe moving the spool can wait a little longer... ;) news deceased (1996-12-09 00:29:44.00) received 10711 bytes in 1.585 seconds (67 57 bytes/sec) on port TCP news deceased (1996-12-09 00:29:56.00) received 71499 bytes in 12.355 seconds (5 787 bytes/sec) on port TCP news deceased (1996-12-09 00:30:22.00) received 171852 bytes in 24.175 seconds ( 7108 bytes/sec) on port TCP news deceased (1996-12-09 00:30:46.00) received 161329 bytes in 24.110 seconds ( 6691 bytes/sec) on port TCP news deceased (1996-12-09 00:30:56.00) received 65573 bytes in 8.750 seconds (74 94 bytes/sec) on port TCP (old version of taylor uucp...) Oh and it doesn't even have an ethernet card, there were some available for it a while ago but they all costed about as much as the machine itself when it was new... its all going over a 115200 bps slip link! for the non-68k-ers: 68000 CPU at 16 MHz, 32K (i think) cache, bus (16 bit) running at 8 MHz. no MMU so no VM, 4 MB RAM. but also no segment registers... (the 68k's all have 16 32-bit registers, 8 address and 8 data, no special accumulator, flat 32 bit address space, 24 bit of which used on the 68000. IBM should have used one of those when they built their first PC...) oh and while i'm at it its keyboard has a loose contact, does someone have a spare that he dosn't need anymore? (MSTe or TT keyboard, connects with a western plug) yes those were the days... cheers, Juergen From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 8 20:51:24 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id UAA27038 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 8 Dec 1996 20:51:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id UAA27019; Sun, 8 Dec 1996 20:51:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id PAA07199; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 15:20:21 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199612090450.PAA07199@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Help, I've been SCOed! In-Reply-To: from Jake Hamby at "Dec 7, 96 11:38:32 pm" To: jehamby@lightside.com Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 15:20:19 +1030 (CST) Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, chat@freebsd.org, jkh@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jake Hamby stands accused of saying: > previous experiences, they're not going to want to give any more money to > SCO! As for FreeBSD, I wasn't able to get FoxPro to work, but ironially > it did get farther than Solaris/x86 (it prints an error message about "Too > many files open" and exits when in fact only a few files were open). It would of course be good if you could get said FP binary to someone that would be able to fix the emulation so that it _does_ work. Is Steven Wallace still with us? FWIW, there are several people running SCO Oracle on FreeBSD; there were patches posted recently for this, and I believe that Nate has merged them into -current. > -- Jake -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 9 05:46:18 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id FAA03594 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 05:46:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from troll.uunet.ca (troll.uunet.ca [142.77.1.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id FAA03589 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 05:46:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by troll.uunet.ca with SMTP id <21003-26270>; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 08:46:00 -0500 Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 08:45:58 -0500 From: Cat Okita To: Nadav Eiron cc: Rob Misiak-Rishaw , joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, softweyr@xmission.com Subject: Re: Slowest machine [Was: TCP/IP ick!] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 8 Dec 1996, Nadav Eiron wrote: > Bringing Suns into the picture, I'm writing this on a Sun386i with 16MB. > I guess the CS department here at the Technion can berak many "slowest on > the Internet" records. I think there must be about a hundred of those > Suns here, and they are the work horses for us graduate students for > things like email and LaTeX. Hrm - my home Suns are reasonably fast :> (Sun 3/160's), but the old Iconics server and client are another story... Cat From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 9 13:59:43 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA04239 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 13:59:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id NAA04228 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 13:59:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id WAA09116; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 22:58:42 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id WAA10869; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 22:58:41 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id WAA24141; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 22:07:30 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199612092107.WAA24141@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: siguing into current from a random version To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 22:07:30 +0100 (MET) Cc: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) In-Reply-To: <199612091850.LAA01028@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Dec 9, 96 11:50:38 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Terry Lambert wrote: > Heh. Like checking code in without compiling the tree as it would > look following the checkin... > > Nothing you can do about that, really, without instituting global > writer locks on the tree (not that this will ever be approved). Do the global writer locks compile the tree for me? Then i'm all for it! :-) Otherwise: moot point, i'd say... I can barely remember that we've been suffering from two people hammering at the tree at the same spot, and causing inconsistencies by this. 99.9 % of the problems have been human errors. Followup to -chat. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 9 14:53:03 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA07491 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 14:53:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id OAA07481 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 14:53:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA01956; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 15:28:50 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199612092228.PAA01956@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: siguing into current from a random version To: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 15:28:50 -0700 (MST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org, terry@lambert.org In-Reply-To: <199612092107.WAA24141@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at Dec 9, 96 10:07:30 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Heh. Like checking code in without compiling the tree as it would > > look following the checkin... > > > > Nothing you can do about that, really, without instituting global > > writer locks on the tree (not that this will ever be approved). > > Do the global writer locks compile the tree for me? Then i'm all for > it! :-) > > Otherwise: moot point, i'd say... I can barely remember that we've > been suffering from two people hammering at the tree at the same spot, > and causing inconsistencies by this. 99.9 % of the problems have been > human errors. I agree. The problem is to eliminate the possibility for human error. Right now, if the tree won't compile after person A has touched it, person A can say: o "Not my fault, person B was touching at the same time, and the changes were interleaved" (finger pointing) o "Not my fault, you supped it while I was checking in" (it is the fault of the person who got the code, not that of the person who provided it) o "Phase of the moon" (can not be disproved because the line between 'compilable' and 'non-compilable' is fuzzy) The point of locks is *not* to keep developers from stepping on each other. The point *is* to eliminate all of the convenient excuses everyone habitually use to claim "not my fault" when the tree breaks. Until you can assign fault, you can't demand reparations. *IF* the developers follow the protocol (they have to follow *a* protocol to checkin anyway), then the exported copy of the cvs tree will be buildable, always. Committers can not use the "it is the fault of the person who got the code" argument. *IF* the users sup/ctm/whatever the exported copy of the cvs tree, then the tree people download will be buildable, always. *IF* a spanning set of changes is labelled, then it is easier to back out something that breaks the tree until the offending committer does something about it and recommits, without screwing everyone else up. Committers can not use the "phase of the moon" argument. *IF* committers are not allowed to interleave their commits (a rare occurance, even as you admit, and therefore not a hardship for the developers), *THEN* committers can not use the "finger pointing" argument. Voila, we have destroyed all of the rocks behind which tree-breakers can hide. If person A breaks the tree, it will be obvious that it is person A's fault, and the breakage can always be trivially undone by backing up one write-lock-label. I still claim that this is a worthwhile thing to do. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 9 15:31:22 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id PAA10201 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 15:31:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id PAA10191 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 15:31:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.7.6/8.6.5) with SMTP id PAA06087; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 15:26:06 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199612092326.PAA06087@root.com> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.root.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: J Wunsch cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Subject: Re: siguing into current from a random version In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 09 Dec 1996 22:07:30 +0100." <199612092107.WAA24141@uriah.heep.sax.de> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 15:26:06 -0800 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >As Terry Lambert wrote: > >> Heh. Like checking code in without compiling the tree as it would >> look following the checkin... >> >> Nothing you can do about that, really, without instituting global >> writer locks on the tree (not that this will ever be approved). > >Do the global writer locks compile the tree for me? Then i'm all for >it! :-) > >Otherwise: moot point, i'd say... I can barely remember that we've >been suffering from two people hammering at the tree at the same spot, >and causing inconsistencies by this. 99.9 % of the problems have been >human errors. In fact, in the history of the project, I don't think it has ever occurred. The mistakes I was refering to are botched diffs and incomplete commits. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 9 16:12:42 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id QAA17586 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 16:12:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.hsc.wvu.edu (www.hsc.wvu.edu [157.182.105.122]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA17569 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 16:12:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jsigmon@localhost) by www.hsc.wvu.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA29904; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 19:11:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 19:11:14 -0500 (EST) From: Jeremy Sigmon To: Terry Lambert cc: J Wunsch , chat@freebsd.org, terry@lambert.org Subject: Re: siguing into current from a random version In-Reply-To: <199612092228.PAA01956@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Voila, we have destroyed all of the rocks behind which tree-breakers > can hide. If person A breaks the tree, it will be obvious that it > is person A's fault, and the breakage can always be trivially undone > by backing up one write-lock-label. As an aside. At work we would use RCS to check in and out web pages so we would not step on each other. This worked until someone checked out a bunch of pages that they were "working on" and a few typos needed to be fixed. This locking feature quickly became annoying. :( I can definately see why the "volunteers" don't want to enable this. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 9 16:17:09 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id QAA17812 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 16:17:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from xmission.xmission.com (softweyr@xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA17794 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 16:16:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (from softweyr@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.4/8.7.5) id RAA15622; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 17:13:13 -0700 (MST) From: Softweyr LLC Message-Id: <199612100013.RAA15622@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: siguing into current from a random version To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 17:13:12 -0700 (MST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199612092228.PAA01956@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Dec 9, 96 03:28:50 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert stated: > The point of locks is *not* to keep developers from stepping on each > other. The point *is* to eliminate all of the convenient excuses > everyone habitually use to claim "not my fault" when the tree breaks. > > [...] > > I still claim that this is a worthwhile thing to do. Perforce has a source code control system that purports to be equivalent to CVS, but with atomic locking. Last I checked, they were very proud of the fact that their system runs on FreeBSD, and are giving away 2- user systems for FreeBSD. They would probably be very willing to donate a server and clients for the FreeBSD core team, and anyone else can get their own system, including clients, for read-only access. http://www.perforce.com (Formerly known as P3. Might be worth looking into.) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 9 16:29:47 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id QAA18823 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 16:29:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from xmission.xmission.com (softweyr@xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA18817 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 16:29:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from softweyr@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.4/8.7.5) id RAA19616; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 17:29:34 -0700 (MST) From: Softweyr LLC Message-Id: <199612100029.RAA19616@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: siguing into current from a random version To: dg@root.com Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 17:29:34 -0700 (MST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199612092326.PAA06087@root.com> from "David Greenman" at Dec 9, 96 03:26:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert opined: % I can barely remember that we've % been suffering from two people hammering at the tree at the same spot, % and causing inconsistencies by this. 99.9 % of the problems have been % human errors. David Greenman reinforced: > In fact, in the history of the project, I don't think it has ever occurred. > The mistakes I was refering to are botched diffs and incomplete commits. Two ugly situations CVS doesn't handle well. One of the major caveats of CVS is that transactions are not atomic; commits that are interrupted by equipment, connectivity, and operator headspace errors are difficult to recover from. It's not perfect, but the price is right. Or is it? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 9 16:34:13 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id QAA19281 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 16:34:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA19276 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 16:34:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.7.6/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA06357; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 16:33:43 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199612100033.QAA06357@root.com> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.root.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Softweyr LLC cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: siguing into current from a random version In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 09 Dec 1996 17:29:34 MST." <199612100029.RAA19616@xmission.xmission.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 16:33:42 -0800 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Terry Lambert opined: Actually, that was Joerg refuting Terry's claim that this was a problem. >% I can barely remember that we've >% been suffering from two people hammering at the tree at the same spot, >% and causing inconsistencies by this. 99.9 % of the problems have been >% human errors. > >David Greenman reinforced: >> In fact, in the history of the project, I don't think it has ever occurred. >> The mistakes I was refering to are botched diffs and incomplete commits. >Two ugly situations CVS doesn't handle well. One of the major caveats >of CVS is that transactions are not atomic; commits that are interrupted >by equipment, connectivity, and operator headspace errors are difficult >to recover from. It's not perfect, but the price is right. Or is it? These are actually fairly rare, too. I think it's happened to me once, but it was easy to recover. The biggest problem is that when I lost connectivity, it stayed that way for awhile and things remained half-committed during this time. ...but it was only 15 minutes, so no big deal. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 9 16:44:42 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id QAA19767 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 16:44:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id QAA19759 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 16:44:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA02353; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 17:22:35 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199612100022.RAA02353@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: siguing into current from a random version To: dg@root.com Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 17:22:35 -0700 (MST) Cc: j@uriah.heep.sax.de, chat@FreeBSD.org, terry@lambert.org In-Reply-To: <199612092326.PAA06087@root.com> from "David Greenman" at Dec 9, 96 03:26:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > In fact, in the history of the project, I don't think it has ever occurred. > The mistakes I was refering to are botched diffs and incomplete commits. Isn't and commit, such that a subsequent checkout won't compile successfully, either incomplete or bothed, by definition? You can argue that if you checkout while commits are in progress, you shouldn't be able to expect it to compile. But what if you checkout while no commits are in progress? How can you justify it not compiling then? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 9 16:54:42 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id QAA20351 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 16:54:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id QAA20342 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 16:54:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA02380; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 17:33:04 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199612100033.RAA02380@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: siguing into current from a random version To: jsigmon@www.hsc.wvu.edu (Jeremy Sigmon) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 17:33:04 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Jeremy Sigmon" at Dec 9, 96 07:11:14 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Voila, we have destroyed all of the rocks behind which tree-breakers > > can hide. If person A breaks the tree, it will be obvious that it > > is person A's fault, and the breakage can always be trivially undone > > by backing up one write-lock-label. > > As an aside. > At work we would use RCS to check in and out web pages so we would not > step on each other. This worked until someone checked out a bunch of > pages that they were "working on" and a few typos needed to be fixed. > This locking feature quickly became annoying. :( > I can definately see why the "volunteers" don't want to enable this. The locks do not need to be held during checkout or modification, only from the time that you start an update following edits until it compiles correctly: begin lock r cvs update ulock <------------------------. local edits <------. <-------. | local test --fail--' | | local test success | | lock r | | cvs update | | ulock | | update changed files? --yes--' | update did not change files | lock w | cvs update | update changed files? --yes----' update did not change files cvs ci ulock end The problem you had with RCS was that multiple reader/single writer locks are not what RCS does. Alternately, you could hold off on the middle lock r/update loop, and let the writer hold the lock until it tests ok. Typically, you will only have collisions if people are modifying the same files, and then only if they are the same files in the same regions (ie: cvs update results in a "C" -- collision). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 9 18:53:38 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id SAA28990 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 18:53:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id SAA28979 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 18:53:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id DAA16648 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 1996 03:53:32 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id DAA15449 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 10 Dec 1996 03:53:32 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id DAA27254 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 10 Dec 1996 03:31:27 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199612100231.DAA27254@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: siguing into current from a random version To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 03:31:27 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199612100013.RAA15622@xmission.xmission.com> from Softweyr LLC at "Dec 9, 96 05:13:12 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Softweyr LLC wrote: > Perforce has a source code control system that purports to be equivalent > to CVS, but with atomic locking. Last I checked, they were very proud > of the fact that their system runs on FreeBSD, and are giving away 2- > user systems for FreeBSD. They would certainly give us an unlimited license, we know this. But last time we've been discussing P3 (as it was named by that time), we came to the conclusion that it, while being excellent, wasn't yet up to the task to replace CVS in our environment. And, some people might also have ``political'' arguments against making an entire free software effort depending from a commercial product (though i think this was the minor problem). -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 9 18:53:46 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id SAA29026 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 18:53:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id SAA29012 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 18:53:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id DAA16644; Tue, 10 Dec 1996 03:53:31 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id DAA15447; Tue, 10 Dec 1996 03:53:30 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id DAA27241; Tue, 10 Dec 1996 03:28:07 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199612100228.DAA27241@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: siguing into current from a random version To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 03:28:06 +0100 (MET) Cc: terry@lambert.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199612100033.RAA02380@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Dec 9, 96 05:33:04 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Terry Lambert wrote: > The locks do not need to be held during checkout or modification, only > from the time that you start an update following edits until it compiles > correctly: > > > begin > lock r > cvs update > ulock <------------------------. > local edits <------. <-------. | > local test --fail--' | | > local test success | | > lock r | | > cvs update | | > ulock | | > update changed files? --yes--' | > update did not change files | > lock w | > cvs update | > update changed files? --yes----' > update did not change files > cvs ci > ulock > > end Even this can take several hours to complete. Think of machines running at clock frequencies slightly lower than 200 MHz :), or of the sluggishness of many Internet connections (including mine) where it's _simply not an option_ that i can refetch the CVS source home right after a commit (at least, if the commit affected more than just a couple of files). Neither is compiling everything on freefall (or thud) an option. Everything had to remain locked for all those hours -- that's unacceptable. In particular unacceptable since what you are suggesting to us as the `problem' you're trying to solve is hardly being remembered by any of the committers as really being one. So the costs are simply to high. Sell your model to somebody else, please (should you find one). -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 9 20:10:02 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id UAA05804 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 20:10:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id UAA05766 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 20:09:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id UAA03319; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 20:48:49 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199612100348.UAA03319@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: siguing into current from a random version To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 20:48:49 -0700 (MST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org, terry@lambert.org In-Reply-To: <199612100228.DAA27241@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at Dec 10, 96 03:28:06 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ ... lock updat commit test unlock ... ] > Even this can take several hours to complete. Think of machines > running at clock frequencies slightly lower than 200 MHz :), or of the > sluggishness of many Internet connections (including mine) where it's > _simply not an option_ that i can refetch the CVS source home right > after a commit (at least, if the commit affected more than just a > couple of files). You don't commit until you compile successfully. I don't understand where you think "refresh the CVS tree after a commit" comes into it at all. > Neither is compiling everything on freefall (or thud) an option. > Everything had to remain locked for all those hours -- that's > unacceptable. It has to be locked over an update/build/commit. I don't see where "hours" come into it (unless you are confused and thing the update is on your home machine? The commit, by definition, must take place on the main CVS tree). In addition, the update process is typically never going to get triggered, in any case ...the update will result in no "M" or "C" records. Unless what you guys have been claiming about people only rarely working on the same files is false, and you're picking now to admit it for some reason. > In particular unacceptable since what you are > suggesting to us as the `problem' you're trying to solve is hardly > being remembered by any of the committers as really being one. That really depends on if your "product" is a source tree, doesn't it? > So the costs are simply to high. Sell your model to somebody else, please > (should you find one). You are exagerating the costs by intentionally assuming that you will be hitting the worst case each time, and in doing so, you are contradicting some of your assumptions (like the one that says these worst cases never arise, so you don't need the locks to keep people from stepping on each other's toes). A implies not B B implies not A If I argue for a soloution to A, you can not use B as a counter argument, and vice versa. Please pick one viewpoint to argue from, and see it through, instead of changing viewpoints when its convenient (to "better put down Terry's suggestions, and logic be damned"). Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 9 23:17:40 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id XAA22875 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 23:17:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id XAA22852 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 23:17:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA21947; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 23:16:08 -0800 (PST) To: Softweyr LLC cc: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert), chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: siguing into current from a random version In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 09 Dec 1996 17:13:12 MST." <199612100013.RAA15622@xmission.xmission.com> Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 23:16:08 -0800 Message-ID: <21943.850202168@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Perforce has a source code control system that purports to be equivalent > to CVS, but with atomic locking. Last I checked, they were very proud > of the fact that their system runs on FreeBSD, and are giving away 2- > user systems for FreeBSD. They would probably be very willing to donate > a server and clients for the FreeBSD core team, and anyone else can > get their own system, including clients, for read-only access. Oh, we know - one of the founders of this company (Chris Seiwald) even took the time to give several of the FreeBSD core team members a complete demonstration of Perforce. It's been something I've since felt sort of bad about, the fact that we never made use of all the information (and server licenses) he provided us. Our CVS repository meister is also a big fan of Perforce and has been watching it for some time. We've just got so much "invested" in CVS at this point that any change at all is viewed with dread, there are so many things we'd need to update. The CVS-web stuff, cvsup, CTM, our checkin scripts and mailing list hooks, it's a lot of stuff. There's also the question of access control, something of an open question last time we evaluated P4, and we'd need some sort of rcvs equivalent using ssh for the developers before they could use it with the same ease. To be fair, this is probably all implemented now and I simply need to go back and re-read the Perforce docs to find out how to use it. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 10 01:27:45 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id BAA29884 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Dec 1996 01:27:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id BAA29879 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 1996 01:27:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id KAA03729 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 1996 10:27:33 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA19306 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 10 Dec 1996 10:27:32 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id KAA29131 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 10 Dec 1996 10:04:36 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199612100904.KAA29131@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: siguing into current from a random version To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 10:04:36 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199612100348.UAA03319@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Dec 9, 96 08:48:49 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Terry Lambert wrote: > You don't commit until you compile successfully. I don't understand > where you think "refresh the CVS tree after a commit" comes into it > at all. Either this or that: > > Neither is compiling everything on freefall (or thud) an option. > > Everything had to remain locked for all those hours -- that's > > unacceptable. is IMHO required for: > It has to be locked over an update/build/commit. ^^^^^ Or how would you build it? > Unless what you guys have been claiming about people only > rarely working on the same files is false, and you're picking now > to admit it for some reason. We haven't claimed this, we've only claimed that hasn't caused us serious problems. That's more than just a difference in wording. I remember occasions where even three of us have been fixing the same problem in the same files in (basically) the same way, independently of each other. I _don't_ remember this being the reason for a tree breakage however. The reasons for this have always been ``human failing''. > That really depends on if your "product" is a source tree, doesn't it? Maybe. Ours isn't. :-) Our ``product'' are releases. > Please pick one viewpoint to argue from, and see it through, instead > of changing viewpoints when its convenient (to "better put down Terry's > suggestions, and logic be damned"). I don't wanna ``put down your suggestions'', i'm only telling you that we aren't suffering the desease you're giving us your medicine for. :) So i fear the costs of your medicine (somebody has to implement it, plus the costs discussed above) for just an ``you could perhaps be caught by this desease some day'' occasion. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 10 05:35:57 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id FAA00775 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Dec 1996 05:35:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id FAA00744; Tue, 10 Dec 1996 05:35:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from burdell.cc.gatech.edu (root@burdell.cc.gatech.edu [130.207.3.207]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id EAA13306 ; Tue, 10 Dec 1996 04:38:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from cleon.cc.gatech.edu (viren@cleon.cc.gatech.edu [130.207.9.12]) by burdell.cc.gatech.edu (8.8.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA10190; Tue, 10 Dec 1996 07:37:06 -0500 (EST) Received: (from viren@localhost) by cleon.cc.gatech.edu (8.8.3/8.6.9) id HAA13320; Tue, 10 Dec 1996 07:37:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 07:37:05 -0500 (EST) From: viren@cc.gatech.edu (Viren R. Shah) Message-Id: <199612101237.HAA13320@cleon.cc.gatech.edu> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: asami@freebsd.org (Satoshi Asami), cschuber@uumail.gov.bc.ca, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, cy@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca Subject: Re: Will FreeBSD Run on This? In-Reply-To: <22897.850203212@time.cdrom.com> References: <199612100341.TAA20767@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> <22897.850203212@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [moved to -chat] >>>>> "Jordan" == Jordan K Hubbard writes: Jordan> [jkh looks around furtively] Jordan> "Uh. I have a Microsoft Natural Keyboard. I.. *ahem*. I Jordan> like it. I can type about 30% faster on the thing as a Jordan> reasonably competent touch-typist since the keys are more Jordan> strategically positioned for my fingers. I hate normal flat Jordan> keyboards now." One of my office-mates got a "Floating Arms Keyboard" from WP Designs. It is great. Everyone here wants one (except being students can't afford the damn thing -- $500). It attaches to the arms of your chair, and is a split keyboard. It does wonders for RSI and for your back. The URL is www.wpdesigns.com. Though apparently their "tech" support while being friendly isn't very helpful. As soon as I can afford one, I'm getting it. Jordan> So there. Pbbblt! ;-) ObDisclaimer: I have no connection with the company except that I really like their product. Viren -- Viren Shah ++ viren@cc.gatech.edu ++ (404)881-8563 [H] ++ (404)894-4650 [W] ====== FreeBSD: It's free, it's fast, it's fun. ====== "3 syncs represent the trinity - init, the child and the eternal zombie process." -- Jordan Hubbard From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 10 09:23:48 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id JAA15679 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Dec 1996 09:23:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from xmission.xmission.com (softweyr@xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA15653 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 1996 09:23:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from softweyr@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.4/8.7.5) id KAA14824; Tue, 10 Dec 1996 10:22:00 -0700 (MST) From: Softweyr LLC Message-Id: <199612101722.KAA14824@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: siguing into current from a random version To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 10:21:59 -0700 (MST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199612100231.DAA27254@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at Dec 10, 96 03:31:27 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Some time yesterday I opined: % Perforce has a source code control system that purports to be equivalent % to CVS, but with atomic locking. Last I checked, they were very proud % of the fact that their system runs on FreeBSD, and are giving away 2- % user systems for FreeBSD. J Wunsch cleverly replied: > And, some people might > also have ``political'' arguments against making an entire free > software effort depending from a commercial product (though i think > this was the minor problem). Ah, a good point. In typical engineering fashion, I did not pause to consider the political ramifications of such a move. I've used CVS extensively both at home and during my "day job," and have been generally pleased with it. I know enough about RCS files, and now about CVS uses (and abuses) of them, when something goes wrong, I can go hack the RCS files and fix the problem. For instance, on a project I was working on 6 weeks ago, the manager was "cleaning" a branch tree that we had to deliver to the customer as a part of our support contract. He inadvertantly removed the source for a tool from the branch tree that we really needed to deliver, and commited this change without checking with us to see if it was needed. I edited the RCS files for the two source files and replaced them on the branch. I fear that most commercial tools, which typically do *not* store their data in easily readable, and modifiable, text files, would not make this quite so easy. At my current day job, Visual Source Safe has been purchased, but I am going to grab the Perforce demo and install it on the two engineering servers, one NT and one SunOS. I'll change their minds yet. (Can't use CVS, since we have Mac, WinNT, and Win95 development systems. I've not heard of a CVS client for Mac...) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 10 10:24:48 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA19585 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Dec 1996 10:24:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA19578 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 1996 10:24:45 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Lehey Received: from freebie.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0vXWr8-000QXwC; Tue, 10 Dec 96 19:24 MET Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.de (8.8.4/8.6.12) id RAA00822; Tue, 10 Dec 1996 17:48:19 +0100 (MET) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Message-Id: <199612101648.RAA00822@freebie.lemis.de> Subject: Re: I'll be in Silicon Valley next week... In-Reply-To: <199612070317.TAA07830@superior.truenorth.org> from Josef Grosch at "Dec 6, 96 07:17:39 pm" To: jgrosch@sirius.com Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 17:48:19 +0100 (MET) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Josef Grosch writes: >> I'm going to spend a little over a week in Cupertino, starting next >> Thursday (the 12th). Are any FreeBSD-heads interested in getting >> together? > > I'm always up for a get together. I work in Cupertino so I might be able to > scout out a few places to try. OK. Any suggestions? This thing has sort of dried up. I'm flying on Thursday, and will be available most days until the following Thursday. How do Saturday or Sunday the 14th/15th sound? Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 10 13:13:01 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA01244 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Dec 1996 13:13:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id NAA01238 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 1996 13:12:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.Stanford.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA13584; Tue, 10 Dec 1996 13:11:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 13:11:50 -0800 (PST) From: Annelise Anderson To: Greg Lehey cc: jgrosch@sirius.com, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: I'll be in Silicon Valley next week... In-Reply-To: <199612101648.RAA00822@freebie.lemis.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 10 Dec 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > Josef Grosch writes: > >> I'm going to spend a little over a week in Cupertino, starting next > >> Thursday (the 12th). Are any FreeBSD-heads interested in getting > >> together? > > > > I'm always up for a get together. I work in Cupertino so I might be able to > > scout out a few places to try. > > OK. Any suggestions? This thing has sort of dried up. > > I'm flying on Thursday, and will be available most days until the > following Thursday. How do Saturday or Sunday the 14th/15th sound? > > Greg > I'm a little hesitant about invading this male bastion, but would like to meet some of you in real life. Sunday is okay for me (as is most of the next week except the 18th) but Saturday evening isn't. Annelise From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 10 13:43:08 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA03677 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Dec 1996 13:43:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA03662; Tue, 10 Dec 1996 13:43:02 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199612102143.NAA03662@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: I'll be in Silicon Valley next week... To: andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu (Annelise Anderson) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 13:43:01 -0800 (PST) Cc: grog@lemis.de, jgrosch@sirius.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Annelise Anderson" at Dec 10, 96 01:11:50 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Annelise Anderson wrote: > > > > On Tue, 10 Dec 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > Josef Grosch writes: > > >> I'm going to spend a little over a week in Cupertino, starting next > > >> Thursday (the 12th). Are any FreeBSD-heads interested in getting > > >> together? > > > > > > I'm always up for a get together. I work in Cupertino so I might be able to > > > scout out a few places to try. > > > > OK. Any suggestions? This thing has sort of dried up. > > > > I'm flying on Thursday, and will be available most days until the > > following Thursday. How do Saturday or Sunday the 14th/15th sound? > > > > Greg > > > > I'm a little hesitant about invading this male bastion, but would like > to meet some of you in real life. Sunday is okay for me (as is most > of the next week except the 18th) but Saturday evening isn't. Annelise, if you can make it to Anaheim for the Usenix Tech Conference (1/6-1/10), you will be able to meet a large number of us. information on the conference is available at: htp://www.usenix.org/ana97/index.html hope to see you there ;) jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 10 14:23:19 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA07002 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:23:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from palrel1.hp.com (palrel1.hp.com [15.253.72.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA06994 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:23:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from xsvr2.cup.hp.com (xsvr2.cup.hp.com [15.0.66.180]) by palrel1.hp.com with ESMTP (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA04775; Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:23:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by xsvr2.cup.hp.com (1.39.111.2/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA204686590; Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:23:10 -0800 From: "Josef C. Grosch" Message-Id: <9612101423.ZM20466@xsvr2.cup.hp.com> Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:23:09 -0800 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey "Re: I'll be in Silicon Valley next week..." (Dec 10, 5:48pm) References: <199612101648.RAA00822@freebie.lemis.de> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10oct95) To: Greg Lehey , jgrosch@sirius.com Subject: Re: I'll be in Silicon Valley next week... Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Dec 10, 5:48pm, Greg Lehey wrote: > Subject: Re: I'll be in Silicon Valley next week... > Josef Grosch writes: > >> I'm going to spend a little over a week in Cupertino, starting next > >> Thursday (the 12th). Are any FreeBSD-heads interested in getting > >> together? > > > > I'm always up for a get together. I work in Cupertino so I might be able to > > scout out a few places to try. > > OK. Any suggestions? This thing has sort of dried up. > > I'm flying on Thursday, and will be available most days until the > following Thursday. How do Saturday or Sunday the 14th/15th sound? > > Greg > >-- End of excerpt from Greg Lehey Either Saturday or Sunday night sounds great. I'll have to check with the social director, my wife but I'm sure we can make it. How does Italian sound? Josef -- Josef Grosch, 47LG4 | "Laugh while you can, | My opinions are mine, not jgrosch@cup.hp.com | monkey boy!" | HPs. They have'nt paid for (408) 447-0467 | - John Warfin - | them yet ! :-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 10 20:59:11 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id UAA12757 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Dec 1996 20:59:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id UAA12752 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 1996 20:59:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA02217; Tue, 10 Dec 1996 20:57:38 -0800 (PST) To: "Josef C. Grosch" cc: Greg Lehey , jgrosch@sirius.com, chat@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Chat) Subject: Re: I'll be in Silicon Valley next week... In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:23:09 PST." <9612101423.ZM20466@xsvr2.cup.hp.com> Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 20:57:38 -0800 Message-ID: <2214.850280258@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Either Saturday or Sunday night sounds great. I'll have to check with the > social director, my wife but I'm sure we can make it. How does Italian sound? I'm supposed to be moved out of here by then, but the way things are going, count me in provisionally. I'll probably (sigh) still be here in the bay area! Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 11 01:29:13 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id BAA28704 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 11 Dec 1996 01:29:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id BAA28696 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 1996 01:29:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id TAA23998; Wed, 11 Dec 1996 19:59:00 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199612110929.TAA23998@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Risk of having bpf0? (was URGENT: Packet sniffer found on my system) In-Reply-To: from "David E. O'Brien" at "Dec 11, 96 01:11:56 am" To: obrien@NUXI.com (David E. O'Brien) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 19:58:59 +1030 (CST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (moved from -security, where this doesn't belong anymore) David E. O'Brien stands accused of saying: > > Tcpdump does all this and lots more; the filter language is pretty powerful. > > > > The fact that it knows how to interpret lots of protocols and that you > > can extend it (courtesy of the source and an easy internal interface) > > puts it over anyuthing else I've seen yet. > > Except for Solaris's snoop. The output is *SO* much nicer than tcpdumps. > If you ever get a chance try snoop -v or snoop -V. tcpdump's output is ideally designed for being digested by something else; I've done Tcl/Tk stuff, but to be pretty you need lots of CPU. > -- David (obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu) -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 11 09:58:42 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id JAA25368 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 11 Dec 1996 09:58:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id JAA25362 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 1996 09:58:35 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Lehey Received: from freebie.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0vXsux-000QXuC; Wed, 11 Dec 96 18:58 MET Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.de (8.8.4/8.6.12) id SAA00837; Wed, 11 Dec 1996 18:55:49 +0100 (MET) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Message-Id: <199612111755.SAA00837@freebie.lemis.de> Subject: Re: I'll be in Silicon Valley next week... In-Reply-To: <9612101423.ZM20466@xsvr2.cup.hp.com> from "Josef C. Grosch" at "Dec 10, 96 02:23:09 pm" To: jgrosch@xsvr2.cup.hp.com (Josef C. Grosch) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 18:55:48 +0100 (MET) Cc: andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu, jehamby@lightside.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Josef C. Grosch writes: > On Dec 10, 5:48pm, Greg Lehey wrote: >> Subject: Re: I'll be in Silicon Valley next week... >> Josef Grosch writes: >>>> I'm going to spend a little over a week in Cupertino, starting next >>>> Thursday (the 12th). Are any FreeBSD-heads interested in getting >>>> together? >>> >>> I'm always up for a get together. I work in Cupertino so I might be able to >>> scout out a few places to try. >> >> OK. Any suggestions? This thing has sort of dried up. >> >> I'm flying on Thursday, and will be available most days until the >> following Thursday. How do Saturday or Sunday the 14th/15th sound? >> >> Greg >> >> -- End of excerpt from Greg Lehey > > > Either Saturday or Sunday night sounds great. I'll have to check with the > social director, my wife but I'm sure we can make it. How does Italian sound? Italian sounds great. I even seem to remember a place down Saratoga way which was very good, but it's been a while, so I'll take your suggestions. I've screwed up a bit here by saving individual replies in folders for their senders, so I've forgotten who's on the list so far. All I have is: Annelise Anderson Josef C. Grosch Jake Hamby I think that there were one or two more, but I can't find the names. In any case, I'm flying tomorrow, and communication might be a bit difficult, so here's how to contact me: 1. Thanks to Jonathan Bresler, I should be able to read mail. Don't count on me finding a connect to the Internet by the weekend, however. 2. I'm staying at the Marriott Courtyard, 10605 North Wolfe Road, Cupertino. Phone: 408-252-9100. This is right by the Wolfe exit on 280 (turn towards Sunnyvale). You can leave a message for me if other things fail. I'll be working at Tandem, just round the corner, but I don't have a usable phone number yet. Looks like Jake can only make it on Saturday, and Annelise can only make it on Sunday. Since there are so many of us :-) we might make two meetings of it. I don't have anything planned at all for the weekend, so we can see what we can do. How about some suggestions from the other side? If you can send me at least your phone numbers by tomorrow morning (my time, not yours, which means tonight your time), I'll contact you when I get there if I can't read my mail. I'd also like to hear from a few more people who'd like to join the get-together. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 11 11:07:18 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA29465 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 11 Dec 1996 11:07:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from palrel1.hp.com (palrel1.hp.com [15.253.72.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA29459 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 1996 11:07:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from xsvr2.cup.hp.com (xsvr2.cup.hp.com [15.0.66.180]) by palrel1.hp.com with ESMTP (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA25920; Wed, 11 Dec 1996 11:07:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by xsvr2.cup.hp.com (1.39.111.2/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA161331226; Wed, 11 Dec 1996 11:07:07 -0800 From: "Josef C. Grosch" Message-Id: <9612111107.ZM16131@xsvr2.cup.hp.com> Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 11:07:06 -0800 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey "Re: I'll be in Silicon Valley next week..." (Dec 11, 6:55pm) References: <199612111755.SAA00837@freebie.lemis.de> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10oct95) To: Greg Lehey Subject: Re: I'll be in Silicon Valley next week... Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat), jehamby@lightside.com, jmb@freefall.freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Dec 11, 6:55pm, Greg Lehey wrote: > Subject: Re: I'll be in Silicon Valley next week... > Josef C. Grosch writes: > > On Dec 10, 5:48pm, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> Subject: Re: I'll be in Silicon Valley next week... > >> Josef Grosch writes: > >>>> I'm going to spend a little over a week in Cupertino, starting next > >>>> Thursday (the 12th). Are any FreeBSD-heads interested in getting > >>>> together? > >>> [ DELETED ] > >> I'm flying on Thursday, and will be available most days until the > >> following Thursday. How do Saturday or Sunday the 14th/15th sound? > >> > >> Greg > >> > >> -- End of excerpt from Greg Lehey > > > > > > Either Saturday or Sunday night sounds great. I'll have to check with the > > social director, my wife but I'm sure we can make it. How does Italian sound? > > Italian sounds great. I even seem to remember a place down Saratoga > way which was very good, but it's been a while, so I'll take your > suggestions. > My wife knows a place in Palo Alto she wants to check out. I'll get back to you on that. > I've screwed up a bit here by saving individual replies in folders for > their senders, so I've forgotten who's on the list so far. All I have > is: > > Annelise Anderson > Josef C. Grosch > Jake Hamby > Add Jonathan M. Bresler (jmb@freefall.freebsd.org) and Jordan K. Hubbard (jkh@time.cdrom.com) as a maybe. > I think that there were one or two more, but I can't find the names. > In any case, I'm flying tomorrow, and communication might be a bit > difficult, so here's how to contact me: > > 1. Thanks to Jonathan Bresler, I should be able to read mail. Don't > count on me finding a connect to the Internet by the weekend, > however. > > 2. I'm staying at the Marriott Courtyard, 10605 North Wolfe Road, > Cupertino. Phone: 408-252-9100. This is right by the Wolfe exit > on 280 (turn towards Sunnyvale). You can leave a message for me > if other things fail. I'll be working at Tandem, just round the > corner, but I don't have a usable phone number yet. > I work at HP in Cupertino which is on the corner of Wolfe and Homestead. I pass the Marriott every day on the way to work. > Looks like Jake can only make it on Saturday, and Annelise can only > make it on Sunday. Since there are so many of us :-) we might make > two meetings of it. I don't have anything planned at all for the > weekend, so we can see what we can do. > Yea, how about dinner one night and meeting for beer another night. There is an English style pub right down the street from you that I hav been looking for an excuse to go into. How authentic an English pub it is remains to be seen. > How about some suggestions from the other side? If you can send me at > least your phone numbers by tomorrow morning (my time, not yours, > which means tonight your time), I'll contact you when I get there if I > can't read my mail. I'd also like to hear from a few more people > who'd like to join the get-together. > You can call me at home and talk to either lisa or I. Or you can talk to the machine, Gort. 415-355-5206 > Greg >-- End of excerpt from Greg Lehey Josef -- Josef Grosch, 47LG4 | "Laugh while you can, | My opinions are mine, not jgrosch@cup.hp.com | monkey boy!" | HPs. They have'nt paid for (408) 447-0467 | - John Warfin - | them yet ! :-) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 11 15:56:57 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id PAA20280 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 11 Dec 1996 15:56:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id PAA20257; Wed, 11 Dec 1996 15:56:51 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199612112356.PAA20257@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: I'll be in Silicon Valley next week... To: jgrosch@xsvr2.cup.hp.com (Josef C. Grosch) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 15:56:50 -0800 (PST) Cc: grog@lemis.de, jkh@time.cdrom.com, andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jehamby@lightside.com In-Reply-To: <9612111107.ZM16131@xsvr2.cup.hp.com> from "Josef C. Grosch" at Dec 11, 96 11:07:06 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Josef C. Grosch wrote: > Add Jonathan M. Bresler (jmb@freefall.freebsd.org) and Jordan K. Hubbard > (jkh@time.cdrom.com) as a maybe. whoa! i wont be there till the second week in january. whats going on in cupertino that brings everyone there at this time of year? jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 11 16:11:07 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id QAA22224 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 11 Dec 1996 16:11:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from palrel1.hp.com (palrel1.hp.com [15.253.72.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA22219 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 1996 16:11:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from xsvr2.cup.hp.com (xsvr2.cup.hp.com [15.0.66.180]) by palrel1.hp.com with ESMTP (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA23322; Wed, 11 Dec 1996 16:10:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by xsvr2.cup.hp.com (1.39.111.2/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA051649459; Wed, 11 Dec 1996 16:10:59 -0800 From: "Josef C. Grosch" Message-Id: <9612111610.ZM5162@xsvr2.cup.hp.com> Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 16:10:58 -0800 In-Reply-To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" "Re: I'll be in Silicon Valley next week..." (Dec 11, 3:56pm) References: <199612112356.PAA20257@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10oct95) To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Subject: Re: I'll be in Silicon Valley next week... Cc: grog@lemis.de, jkh@time.cdrom.com, andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jehamby@lightside.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Dec 11, 3:56pm, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > Subject: Re: I'll be in Silicon Valley next week... > Josef C. Grosch wrote: > > > Add Jonathan M. Bresler (jmb@freefall.freebsd.org) and Jordan K. Hubbard > > (jkh@time.cdrom.com) as a maybe. > > whoa! i wont be there till the second week in january. > whats going on in cupertino that brings everyone there > at this time of year? > jmb >-- End of excerpt from Jonathan M. Bresler Sorry, I miss read your note. Josef -- Josef Grosch, 47LG4 | "Laugh while you can, | My opinions are mine, not jgrosch@cup.hp.com | monkey boy!" | HPs. They have'nt paid for (408) 447-0467 | - John Warfin - | them yet ! :-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 12 11:47:28 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA01053 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 12 Dec 1996 11:47:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from palrel3.hp.com (palrel3.hp.com [15.253.88.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA01035 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 1996 11:47:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from xsvr2.cup.hp.com (xsvr2.cup.hp.com [15.0.66.180]) by palrel3.hp.com with ESMTP (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA26984 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 1996 11:47:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by xsvr2.cup.hp.com (1.39.111.2/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA148210027; Thu, 12 Dec 1996 11:47:07 -0800 From: "Josef C. Grosch" Message-Id: <9612121147.ZM14819@xsvr2.cup.hp.com> Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 11:47:07 -0800 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10oct95) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Dinner w/ Greg Lehey Cc: andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu, grog@lemis.de, jkh@time.cdrom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It appears that so far we have Greg, Annelise, myself, Lisa, and Jordan (maybe) for dinner. The only person who has a time constraint is Annelise who can only make it for Sunday night. Unless there is an objection, Sunday it is. Lisa, my wife, checked out an Italian restaurant in Palo Alto and said it was too pricey but she liked the brewery/restaurant across the street. The place is called Gordan Biersch at 638 Emerson just off University. Annelise, this is your area, do you know anything about this place? We are going to need a head count so I can make a reservation for Sunday night. I could also use a consensus as to what would be a good time. This is a last call for dinner on Sunday night with Greg Lehey, et.al. Josef -- Josef Grosch, 47LG4 | "Laugh while you can, | My opinions are mine, not jgrosch@cup.hp.com | monkey boy!" | HPs. They have'nt paid for (408) 447-0467 | - John Warfin - | them yet ! :-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 12 11:49:09 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA01160 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 12 Dec 1996 11:49:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA01155 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 1996 11:49:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.Stanford.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA01006; Thu, 12 Dec 1996 11:42:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 11:42:53 -0800 (PST) From: Annelise Anderson To: "Josef C. Grosch" cc: Greg Lehey , jkh@time.cdrom.com, FreeBSD Chat , jehamby@lightside.com, jmb@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: I'll be in Silicon Valley next week... In-Reply-To: <9612111107.ZM16131@xsvr2.cup.hp.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FREEBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Looks like Jake can only make it on Saturday, and Annelise can only > > make it on Sunday. Since there are so many of us :-) we might make > > two meetings of it. I don't have anything planned at all for the > > weekend, so we can see what we can do. > > > As it turns out I may not be able to make it on Sunday either--my husband has started talking about going to Tahoe for a few days, and we would probably leave Sunday.... Annelise From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 12 12:01:54 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id MAA02134 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 12 Dec 1996 12:01:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA02123 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 1996 12:01:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA25168; Thu, 12 Dec 1996 12:00:34 -0800 (PST) To: "Josef C. Grosch" cc: chat@freebsd.org, andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu, grog@lemis.de Subject: Re: Dinner w/ Greg Lehey In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 12 Dec 1996 11:47:07 PST." <9612121147.ZM14819@xsvr2.cup.hp.com> Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 12:00:34 -0800 Message-ID: <25165.850420834@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > called Gordan Biersch at 638 Emerson just off University. Annelise, this is > your area, do you know anything about this place? Food is also pricey there, and the general ambiance of a brew-pub somewhat wasted on us non-drinkers, so if it's all the same I vote for straight Italian with an emphasis on the quality of the restaurant. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 12 12:11:54 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id MAA02765 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 12 Dec 1996 12:11:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from palrel1.hp.com (palrel1.hp.com [15.253.72.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA02760 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 1996 12:11:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from xsvr2.cup.hp.com (xsvr2.cup.hp.com [15.0.66.180]) by palrel1.hp.com with ESMTP (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA09819; Thu, 12 Dec 1996 12:11:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by xsvr2.cup.hp.com (1.39.111.2/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA154761502; Thu, 12 Dec 1996 12:11:42 -0800 From: "Josef C. Grosch" Message-Id: <9612121211.ZM15474@xsvr2.cup.hp.com> Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 12:11:42 -0800 In-Reply-To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" "Re: Dinner w/ Greg Lehey" (Dec 12, 12:00pm) References: <25165.850420834@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10oct95) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: Dinner w/ Greg Lehey Cc: chat@freebsd.org, andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu, grog@lemis.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Dec 12, 12:00pm, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Subject: Re: Dinner w/ Greg Lehey > > called Gordan Biersch at 638 Emerson just off University. Annelise, this is > > your area, do you know anything about this place? > > Food is also pricey there, and the general ambiance of a brew-pub > somewhat wasted on us non-drinkers, so if it's all the same I vote for > straight Italian with an emphasis on the quality of the restaurant. :-) > > Jordan >-- End of excerpt from Jordan K. Hubbard Ah. Well let me call my wife and get the run down on the resturant she looked at. Any suggestions would be very helpful. Josef -- Josef Grosch, 47LG4 | "Laugh while you can, | My opinions are mine, not jgrosch@cup.hp.com | monkey boy!" | HPs. They have'nt paid for (408) 447-0467 | - John Warfin - | them yet ! :-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 12 13:48:28 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA09102 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 12 Dec 1996 13:48:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA09096 for chat; Thu, 12 Dec 1996 13:48:26 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199612122148.NAA09096@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: mailing lists are still growing To: chat Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 13:48:26 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk here's the total number of subscribers to all the lists and to each list. (truncated at about 200 subscribers) 15688 total 3021 freebsd-announce 946 freebsd-security 792 freebsd-hackers 706 freebsd-isp 676 freebsd-questions 676 freebsd-current 586 freebsd-hardware 575 aic7xxx 568 freebsd-stable 415 freebsd-bugs 387 freebsd-scsi 372 freebsd-ports 372 freebsd-fs 343 freebsd-smp 331 freebsd-multimedia 330 freebsd-install 307 freebsd-chat 273 freebsd-platforms 273 freebsd-doc 268 freebsd-emulation 230 freebsd-security-digest 230 freebsd-hackers-digest 214 freebsd-security-notifications 187 freebsd-questions-digest 7198 addresses are unique. the "winners" in the race to subscribe are: (truncated at about 30 lists/person) 76 yichoi@cosmos.kaist.ac.kr 69 sauri@islandia.is 69 devnull 44 vince@venus.GAIANET.NET 38 ockg@fang.cs.sunyit.edu 36 kindler@chemie.uni-hamburg.de 36 freebsd@INETWORLD.NET 35 jgrosch@xsvr2.cup.hp.com 35 dufault@hda.com 33 listuser@artifact.geol.msu.ru 32 nowius@blue.nowcom.co.kr jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 12 14:06:21 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA10390 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 12 Dec 1996 14:06:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from grackle.grondar.za (wN2z3mtKir93nzsYKx6Twtu2anVXaJAG@grackle.grondar.za [196.7.18.131]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA10369; Thu, 12 Dec 1996 14:06:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from grackle.grondar.za (HcHse1xCsnMi3Bq8VAIE2xFNGEqojmus@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grackle.grondar.za (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id AAA01886; Fri, 13 Dec 1996 00:06:02 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199612122206.AAA01886@grackle.grondar.za> To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: mailing lists are still growing Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 00:06:01 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk "Jonathan M. Bresler" wrote: [impressive stats deleted] > 7198 addresses are unique. > the "winners" in the race to subscribe are: > (truncated at about 30 lists/person) How many of these are not "real"? (ie how many are spammers or /dev/null? (there is a large devnull in there...) M -- Mark Murray PGP key fingerprint = 80 36 6E 40 83 D6 8A 36 This .sig is umop ap!sdn. BC 06 EA 0E 7A F2 CE CE From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 12 14:19:40 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA11488 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 12 Dec 1996 14:19:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA11439; Thu, 12 Dec 1996 14:19:23 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199612122219.OAA11439@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: mailing lists are still growing To: mark@grondar.za (Mark Murray) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 14:19:22 -0800 (PST) Cc: chat@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199612122206.AAA01886@grackle.grondar.za> from "Mark Murray" at Dec 13, 96 00:06:01 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mark Murray wrote: > > "Jonathan M. Bresler" wrote: > > [impressive stats deleted] > > > 7198 addresses are unique. > > the "winners" in the race to subscribe are: > > (truncated at about 30 lists/person) > > How many of these are not "real"? (ie how many are spammers or > /dev/null? (there is a large devnull in there...) 69 are devnull. one for each list. how many are spammers? dont know. give me a list of spammers and we can match 'em up. some quantity of subscribers on the low volume lists are "inactive" or "non-functional" on the active lists the figures are pretty good i get from 600-1200 bounces a day. we send out ~180,000 messages a day. jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 13 14:07:33 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA20838 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 13 Dec 1996 14:07:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from suntan.tandem.com (suntan.tandem.com [192.216.221.8]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id OAA20809 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 1996 14:07:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from papillon.lemis.de by suntan.tandem.com (8.6.12/suntan5.961027) id OAA28001; Fri, 13 Dec 1996 14:07:30 -0800 From: Greg Lehey Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.de (8.8.4/8.6.12) id PAA00280; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 15:04:23 +0100 (CET) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Message-Id: <199601121404.PAA00280@papillon.lemis.de> Subject: Re: I'll be in Silicon Valley next week... In-Reply-To: <9612111107.ZM16131@xsvr2.cup.hp.com> from "Josef C. Grosch" at "Dec 11, 96 11:07:06 am" To: jgrosch@xsvr2.cup.hp.com (Josef C. Grosch) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 15:04:23 +0100 (CET) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Josef C. Grosch writes: > On Dec 11, 6:55pm, Greg Lehey wrote: >> Subject: Re: I'll be in Silicon Valley next week... >> Josef C. Grosch writes: >>> On Dec 10, 5:48pm, Greg Lehey wrote: >>>> Subject: Re: I'll be in Silicon Valley next week... >>>> Josef Grosch writes: >> Italian sounds great. I even seem to remember a place down Saratoga >> way which was very good, but it's been a while, so I'll take your >> suggestions. >> > > My wife knows a place in Palo Alto she wants to check out. I'll get back to you > on that. Fine by me. >> I think that there were one or two more, but I can't find the names. >> In any case, I'm flying tomorrow, and communication might be a bit >> difficult, so here's how to contact me: >> >> 1. Thanks to Jonathan Bresler, I should be able to read mail. Don't >> count on me finding a connect to the Internet by the weekend, >> however. >> >> 2. I'm staying at the Marriott Courtyard, 10605 North Wolfe Road, >> Cupertino. Phone: 408-252-9100. This is right by the Wolfe exit >> on 280 (turn towards Sunnyvale). You can leave a message for me >> if other things fail. I'll be working at Tandem, just round the >> corner, but I don't have a usable phone number yet. >> > > I work at HP in Cupertino which is on the corner of Wolfe and Homestead. I pass > the Marriott every day on the way to work. Yes, I know the place. >> Looks like Jake can only make it on Saturday, and Annelise can only >> make it on Sunday. Since there are so many of us :-) we might make >> two meetings of it. I don't have anything planned at all for the >> weekend, so we can see what we can do. >> > > Yea, how about dinner one night and meeting for beer another night. There is an > English style pub right down the street from you that I hav been looking for an > excuse to go into. How authentic an English pub it is remains to be seen. The Duke of Edinburgh? I've been there once before, it wasn't too bad, and in fact I'm meeting somebody else there next Wednesday. I don't know if they have much in common with FreeBSD-heads, though. >> How about some suggestions from the other side? If you can send me at >> least your phone numbers by tomorrow morning (my time, not yours, >> which means tonight your time), I'll contact you when I get there if I >> can't read my mail. I'd also like to hear from a few more people >> who'd like to join the get-together. > > You can call me at home and talk to either lisa or I. Or you can talk to the > machine, Gort. > > 415-355-5206 OK. Let's see if this gets to you before I call you. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 13 14:09:12 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA21126 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 13 Dec 1996 14:09:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from suntan.tandem.com (suntan.tandem.com [192.216.221.8]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id OAA21116 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 1996 14:09:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from papillon.lemis.de by suntan.tandem.com (8.6.12/suntan5.961027) id OAA28010; Fri, 13 Dec 1996 14:07:31 -0800 From: Greg Lehey Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.de (8.8.4/8.6.12) id OAA00411; Thu, 12 Dec 1996 14:07:07 -0500 (EST) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Message-Id: <199612121907.OAA00411@papillon.lemis.de> Subject: Re: TCP/IP bandwidth bragging In-Reply-To: <199612072050.VAA22583@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Dec 7, 96 09:50:11 pm" To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 14:07:07 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat), jdunham@fc.net, dunham@rider.fc.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch writes: > As Joe Greco wrote: > >> What are you bellyaching about!! I have.. a.. >> >> 386SX/16 with 3MB RAM (2 1x9's plus 4 256kX4's) > >> Any takers? I can (barely) think of worse configurations. Surely >> somebody has one! > > Hmpf. Well, you'll get me to the point to test my 2 MB machine at > work again! Some day... ;-) > > Last time i tested, the kernel had a bad bug that caused the KVA space > to suddenly exhaust on such a small machine. Hence i've only got it > into single-user mode, any multi-user attempt or other work than just > a single shell quickly panicked the box. This kernel bug has been > fixed since, so i might try again. Jerry Dunham has a 12 MHz 286 with 2 MB which used to run Xenix. He's migrated to a 486 running FreeBSD, and I don't think he's had it turned on in a while, but I gather it worked OK as a UUCP BBS. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 13 14:51:19 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA23432 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 13 Dec 1996 14:51:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA23425 for chat; Fri, 13 Dec 1996 14:51:17 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Lehey Message-Id: <199612132251.OAA23425@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Mail to me is bouncing... To: chat Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 14:51:17 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Josef Grosch has just drawn to my attention that mail to grog@lemis.de is bouncing. Sorry about that. You should be able to get me at grog@freebsd.org instead. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 13 15:04:07 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id PAA24050 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 13 Dec 1996 15:04:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from suntan.tandem.com (suntan.tandem.com [192.216.221.8]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id PAA24045 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 1996 15:04:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from papillon.lemis.de by suntan.tandem.com (8.6.12/suntan5.961027) id PAA05425; Fri, 13 Dec 1996 15:02:11 -0800 From: Greg Lehey Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.de (8.8.4/8.6.12) id OAA00293; Fri, 13 Dec 1996 14:24:21 -0800 (PST) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Message-Id: <199612132224.OAA00293@papillon.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Dinner w/ Greg Lehey In-Reply-To: <25165.850420834@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Dec 12, 96 12:00:34 pm" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 14:24:20 -0800 (PST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat), tomasi_roberto@tandem.com (Robersi Tomato) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard writes: >> called Gordan Biersch at 638 Emerson just off University. Annelise, this is >> your area, do you know anything about this place? > > Food is also pricey there, and the general ambiance of a brew-pub > somewhat wasted on us non-drinkers, so if it's all the same I vote for > straight Italian with an emphasis on the quality of the restaurant. :-) Does this mean we'll be seeing you? Barring other ideas, I'll ask Tomato, an Italian friend of mine who lives in Sunnyvale and likes good food. Unfortunately, he's gone walkabout right now, or I could do it right away. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 14 17:50:06 1996 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id RAA11754 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 14 Dec 1996 17:50:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id RAA11747 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 1996 17:50:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (richardc@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA27131 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 1996 17:51:28 -0800 Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 17:51:26 -0800 (PST) From: Veggy Vinny To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: LA People Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greetings everyone, I and a few people will be in LA this thursday the 19th to monday, the 23rd and we are having trouble renting a car because everyone is under 21. Is there anyone out there that can loan us their car for 5 days and we'll pay $50/per day for rental or even higher? or can just help us pick up a rental car if you're 25 years of age or over? Thanks. Vince GaiaNet Corporation - Unix Networking Operations - GUS Mailing Lists Admin