From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 01:06:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA13836 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 01:06:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA13830 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 01:06:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 0.56 #1) id E0vHQEb-0000Jq-00; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 01:06:17 -0700 To: current@freebsd.org Subject: FYI: Sept 21 kernel + panics Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 01:06:16 -0700 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I've had three panics that haven't left a core file running a -current kernel from Sept 21. I have kernel core dumps enabled, and savecore enabled on boot, yet I get nothing from savecore :-(. This is after about 10 days of uptime. This last time I noticed emacs getting slow about 48 hours before the panic. Is there something else that I can enable to find out where it is dying? Is it worth trying to track down in this rev, or should I do a cvs update in my /usr/src/sys and see if that fixes the problem :-). Warner From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 05:55:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA24773 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 05:55:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from cenotaph.snafu.de (root@gw-deadnet.snafu.de [194.121.229.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA24768 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 05:55:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by cenotaph.snafu.de from deadline.snafu.de using smtp id m0vHVge-000ZkIC; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 14:55:36 +0100 (MET) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #1) Received: by deadline.snafu.de id m0vHVgc-0007zoC; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 14:55:34 +0100 (MET) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #1) Message-Id: From: root@deadline.snafu.de (Andreas S. Wetzel) Subject: makeinfo frequently exiting on sig11 while doing make world ??? To: current@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 14:55:34 +0100 (MET) Organization: A world stranger than you have ever imagined. X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL13] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi! --- While trying to do a make world of -current today I again experienced a problem with makeinfo dumping core due to a sig 11: ===> doc makeinfo --no-split -I /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/bison/doc /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/bison/doc/../../../../contrib/bison/bison.texinfo -o bison.info Making info file `bison.info' from `/usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/bison/doc/../../../../contrib/bison/bison.texinfo'. *** Signal 11 Stop. *** Error code 1 Stop. *** Error code 1 Stop. This isn't talk of new, but talk of old (At least for me, since I'm having this problem for a long time already, but the situation is almost getting worse, since more and more programs seem to come with info files now) The problem is not related to any special directory or component of the source tree, but happens nearly everywhere where info files are to be formatted using makeinfo. A clean rebuild of /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/texinfo didn't even bring more success to that thing. I do also not believe that there is a strange piece of hardware in my system, which would cause just makeinfo to dump core but no other programs. Especially not, because I've often seen a similar behaviour of makeinfo while trying to do a make world on at least two other FreeBSD-current machines in my network with a hardware completely different from that which is being used on this machine. I would appreciate any suggestions on that or some advice what I could do to get makeinfo work. If you need more infos (kernel configuration, hardware description etc) please let me know, so I will send them to you. Thanks in advance Regards, mickey -- (__) (@@) Andreas S. Wetzel E-mail: mickey@deadline.snafu.de /-------\/ Utrechter Strasse 41 Web: http://deadline.snafu.de/ / | || 13347 Berlin Fon: <+4930> 456 066 90 * ||----|| Germany Fax: <+4930> 456 066 91/92 ~~ ~~ From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 07:45:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA27670 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 07:45:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from rosie.scsn.net (scsn.net [206.25.246.12]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA27663 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 07:45:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from rhiannon.scsn.net (cola56.scsn.net [206.25.247.56]) by rosie.scsn.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-13529) with ESMTP id AAA164; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 10:45:07 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by rhiannon.scsn.net (8.8.2/8.6.12) id LAA12135; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 11:46:08 -0500 (EST) From: "Donald J. Maddox" Message-Id: <199610271646.LAA12135@rhiannon.scsn.net> Subject: Re: makeinfo frequently exiting on sig11 while doing make world ??? In-Reply-To: from "Andreas S. Wetzel" at "Oct 27, 96 02:55:34 pm" To: root@deadline.snafu.de (Andreas S. Wetzel) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 11:46:07 -0500 (EST) Cc: current@FreeBSD.org Reply-To: dmaddox@scsn.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > While trying to do a make world of -current today I again experienced > a problem with makeinfo dumping core due to a sig 11: > > ===> doc > makeinfo --no-split -I /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/bison/doc /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/bison/doc/../../../../contrib/bison/bison.texinfo -o bison.info > Making info file `bison.info' from `/usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/bison/doc/../../../../contrib/bison/bison.texinfo'. > *** Signal 11 > > Stop. > *** Error code 1 > > Stop. > *** Error code 1 > > Stop. I had this same problem when I was experimenting with using '-O3' in my CFLAGS in make.conf. Could it be the optimizer that's biting you too? -- Donald J. Maddox (dmaddox@scsn.net) From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 07:49:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA27905 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 07:49:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from cenotaph.snafu.de (root@gw-deadnet.snafu.de [194.121.229.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA27891 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 07:49:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by cenotaph.snafu.de from deadline.snafu.de using smtp id m0vHXSo-000ZkOC; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 16:49:26 +0100 (MET) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #1) Received: by deadline.snafu.de id m0vHXSm-0007zoC; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 16:49:24 +0100 (MET) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #1) Message-Id: From: root@deadline.snafu.de (Andreas S. Wetzel) Subject: Re: makeinfo frequently exiting on sig11 while doing make world ??? To: dmaddox@scsn.net Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 16:49:24 +0100 (MET) Cc: current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610271646.LAA12135@rhiannon.scsn.net> from "Donald J. Maddox" at "Oct 27, 96 11:46:07 am" Organization: A world stranger than you have ever imagined. X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL13] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi! --- Donald J. Maddox writes: ] > While trying to do a make world of -current today I again experienced ] > a problem with makeinfo dumping core due to a sig 11: ] > ] > ===> doc ] > makeinfo --no-split -I /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/bison/doc /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/bison/doc/../../../../contrib/bison/bison.texinfo -o bison.info ] > Making info file `bison.info' from `/usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/bison/doc/../../../../contrib/bison/bison.texinfo'. ] > *** Signal 11 ] > ] > Stop. ] > *** Error code 1 ] > ] > Stop. ] > *** Error code 1 ] > ] > Stop. ] ] I had this same problem when I was experimenting with using '-O3' ] in my CFLAGS in make.conf. Could it be the optimizer that's biting ] you too? Yes, I'm using -O3 in my /etc/make.conf since some time ago... but the problem was already happening to me long time before that while I was still using -O2 instead of -O3. Regards, Mickey -- (__) (@@) Andreas S. Wetzel E-mail: mickey@deadline.snafu.de /-------\/ Utrechter Strasse 41 Web: http://deadline.snafu.de/ / | || 13347 Berlin Fon: <+4930> 456 066 90 * ||----|| Germany Fax: <+4930> 456 066 91/92 ~~ ~~ From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 07:57:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA28334 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 07:57:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from rosie.scsn.net (scsn.net [206.25.246.12]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA28329 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 07:57:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from rhiannon.scsn.net (cola56.scsn.net [206.25.247.56]) by rosie.scsn.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-13529) with ESMTP id AAA189; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 10:56:25 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by rhiannon.scsn.net (8.8.2/8.6.12) id LAA12169; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 11:57:27 -0500 (EST) From: "Donald J. Maddox" Message-Id: <199610271657.LAA12169@rhiannon.scsn.net> Subject: Re: makeinfo frequently exiting on sig11 while doing make world ??? In-Reply-To: from "Andreas S. Wetzel" at "Oct 27, 96 04:49:24 pm" To: root@deadline.snafu.de (Andreas S. Wetzel) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 11:57:26 -0500 (EST) Cc: current@FreeBSD.org Reply-To: dmaddox@scsn.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > ] I had this same problem when I was experimenting with using '-O3' > ] in my CFLAGS in make.conf. Could it be the optimizer that's biting > ] you too? > > Yes, I'm using -O3 in my /etc/make.conf since some time ago... but the > problem was already happening to me long time before that while I was > still using -O2 instead of -O3. Well, I can only say that I had this problem with '-O3', but changing to '-O2' fixed the problem. Is it possible that the earlier occurences of the problem when using '-O2' happened before gcc-2.7.2.1 was imported? -- Donald J. Maddox (dmaddox@scsn.net) From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 07:59:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA28401 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 07:59:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from cenotaph.snafu.de (root@gw-deadnet.snafu.de [194.121.229.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA28396 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 07:59:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by cenotaph.snafu.de from deadline.snafu.de using smtp id m0vHXcP-000ZkOC; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 16:59:21 +0100 (MET) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #1) Received: by deadline.snafu.de id m0vHXcO-0007zoC; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 16:59:20 +0100 (MET) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #1) Message-Id: From: root@deadline.snafu.de (Andreas S. Wetzel) Subject: Re: makeinfo frequently exiting on sig11 while doing make world ??? To: dmaddox@scsn.net Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 16:59:19 +0100 (MET) Cc: current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610271657.LAA12169@rhiannon.scsn.net> from "Donald J. Maddox" at "Oct 27, 96 11:57:26 am" Organization: A world stranger than you have ever imagined. X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL13] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi! --- Donald J. Maddox writes: ] > ] I had this same problem when I was experimenting with using '-O3' ] > ] in my CFLAGS in make.conf. Could it be the optimizer that's biting ] > ] you too? ] > ] > Yes, I'm using -O3 in my /etc/make.conf since some time ago... but the ] > problem was already happening to me long time before that while I was ] > still using -O2 instead of -O3. ] ] Well, I can only say that I had this problem with '-O3', but ] changing to '-O2' fixed the problem. ] ] Is it possible that the earlier occurences of the problem when ] using '-O2' happened before gcc-2.7.2.1 was imported? I'm just about to build -current of today which includes gcc 2.7.x. My last build of -world was in June and included gcc 2.6.3 Regards, Mickey -- (__) (@@) Andreas S. Wetzel E-mail: mickey@deadline.snafu.de /-------\/ Utrechter Strasse 41 Web: http://deadline.snafu.de/ / | || 13347 Berlin Fon: <+4930> 456 066 90 * ||----|| Germany Fax: <+4930> 456 066 91/92 ~~ ~~ From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 10:52:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA06965 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 10:52:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA06958 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 10:52:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id TAA01169; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 19:52:11 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id TAA08523; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 19:52:10 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.6/8.6.9) id TAA27963; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 19:47:57 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610271847.TAA27963@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Oct25th kernel gives 'panic: page fault'...gdb gives nothing To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD-current users) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 19:47:57 +0100 (MET) Cc: scrappy@ki.net (Marc G. Fournier) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from "Marc G. Fournier" at "Oct 26, 96 00:04:08 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Marc G. Fournier wrote: > panic: page fault > #0 boot (howto=1986080611) at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:237 > 237 dumppcb.pcb_cr3 = rcr3(); > (kgdb) where > #0 boot (howto=1986080611) at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:237 > #1 0x65722f6c in ?? () > Cannot access memory at address 0x6f6f7073. ^^^^^^^^^^ That's the string "oops", btw. :-) And the 0x65722f6c is "er/l". -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 11:10:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA07668 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 11:10:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA07658 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 11:10:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (richardc@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA10278; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 11:10:50 -0800 Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 11:10:48 -0800 (PST) From: Veggy Vinny To: "Marc G. Fournier" cc: Chuck Robey , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: -current failed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 27 Oct 1996, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > One other area you might want to watch...for some reason, I > didn't have a /usr/lib/compat directory, so when I did my 'make install' > in /usr/src/gnu, libgnumalloc.so.2.0 became /usr/lib/compat... I didn't either..... Somehow on the other machines, I updated from the same version of -current and I just had to recompile gcc before doing make world and everything went fine... Anyways, if I wanted to resup the src tree again from scratch, do I just rm -rf * after cd'ing to /usr/src, is there anything I need to do to /usr/obj or can I just delete it? Vince GaiaNet Corporation - Unix Networking Operations From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 11:15:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA07969 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 11:15:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from po1.glue.umd.edu (po1.glue.umd.edu [129.2.128.44]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA07962 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 11:15:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from modem.eng.umd.edu (modem.eng.umd.edu [129.2.98.187]) by po1.glue.umd.edu (8.8.2/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA15110; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 14:15:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by modem.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA04581; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 14:15:14 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: modem.eng.umd.edu: chuckr owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 14:15:13 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@modem.eng.umd.edu To: Veggy Vinny cc: "Marc G. Fournier" , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: -current failed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 27 Oct 1996, Veggy Vinny wrote: > > > On Sun, 27 Oct 1996, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > > One other area you might want to watch...for some reason, I > > didn't have a /usr/lib/compat directory, so when I did my 'make install' > > in /usr/src/gnu, libgnumalloc.so.2.0 became /usr/lib/compat... > > I didn't either..... Somehow on the other machines, I updated > from the same version of -current and I just had to recompile gcc before > doing make world and everything went fine... Anyways, if I wanted to resup > the src tree again from scratch, do I just rm -rf * after cd'ing to > /usr/src, is there anything I need to do to /usr/obj or can I just delete > it? Doing a make world automatically does the make obj for you. Make cleandir kills them. If there isn't a obj directory avaialble when the make starts, then the obj's fall into the source directories. One very common error is the do make clean, and think your objs are really clean. They aren't, the .depend files survive, and cause grief. I don't know why this all is, I'm not as closely plugged into the make files as I could be. > > Vince > GaiaNet Corporation - Unix Networking Operations > > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 9120 Edmonston Ct #302 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and n3lxx, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 2.2 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 11:44:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA09265 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 11:44:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA09235 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 11:44:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (richardc@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA11746; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 11:45:20 -0800 Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 11:45:18 -0800 (PST) From: Veggy Vinny To: Chuck Robey cc: "Marc G. Fournier" , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: -current failed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 27 Oct 1996, Chuck Robey wrote: > Doing a make world automatically does the make obj for you. Make cleandir > kills them. If there isn't a obj directory avaialble when the make > starts, then the obj's fall into the source directories. One very common > error is the do make clean, and think your objs are really clean. They > aren't, the .depend files survive, and cause grief. > > I don't know why this all is, I'm not as closely plugged into the make > files as I could be. Oh okay, so I don't have to do anything with /usr/obj except update the /usr/src tree I guess. Vince GaiaNet Corporation - Unix Networking Operations From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 11:56:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA10181 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 11:56:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA10167 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 11:56:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id UAA02437; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 20:51:23 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id UAA09586; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 20:51:23 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.6/8.6.9) id UAA28878; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 20:07:28 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610271907.UAA28878@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Warning building usr.bin/bdes To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD-current users) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 20:07:26 +0100 (MET) Cc: rlb@mindspring.com (Ron Bolin), mark@grondar.za (Mark Murray) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <327229CC.15FB7483@mindspring.com> from Ron Bolin at "Oct 26, 96 11:10:04 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Ron Bolin wrote: > ===> usr.bin/bdes > cc -O -c /usr/src/secure/usr.bin/bdes/bdes.c > cc -O -L/usr/obj/usr/src/secure/usr.bin/bdes/../../lib/libcipher -o > bdes bdes > .o -lcipher > bdes.o: WARNING! des_setkey(3) not present in the system! > bdes.o: WARNING! des_cipher(3) not present in the system! I've also noticed this. That's with the internation crypto CVS, in case this makes a difference. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 12:20:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA11106 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 12:20:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from ginger.vnet.net (root@ginger.vnet.net [166.82.1.69]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA11101 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 12:20:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by ginger.vnet.net (8.7.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA21339; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 14:25:59 -0500 Received: from artist.vnet.net by vnet.net with SMTP id AA13233 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Sun, 27 Oct 1996 15:19:56 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: XFMail 0.4 [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 15:13:43 -0500 (EST) From: Edwin Burley To: Veggy Vinny Subject: Re: -current failed Cc: "Marc G. Fournier" , Chuck Robey , current@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ---------------------------------- E-Mail: khan@vnet.net Date: 10/27/96 Time: 15:13:43 ---------------------------------- So what is the right why to get current to compile... because am system is kicking out at the function.c file in the ./../../../cc/cc_int dir.... From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 12:22:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA11170 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 12:22:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA11164 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 12:21:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id VAA03245; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 21:21:45 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id VAA10180; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 21:21:45 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.6/8.6.9) id VAA14972; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 21:11:41 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610272011.VAA14972@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Question on Current Philosophy To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD-current users) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 21:11:40 +0100 (MET) Cc: rlb@mindspring.com Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from Chuck Robey at "Oct 26, 96 12:21:03 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Chuck Robey wrote: > Ron, as I posted before, the reason no one else is complaining about > -current being so buggy is because it ISN'T. Your archive is probably > very badly mangled. Seconded. I'm just upgrading again, but apart from a few outdated .depend files, everything seems to work. (I don't use `make world' but a manual remake instead.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 12:36:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA11553 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 12:36:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@[204.214.4.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA11547 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 12:36:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from bonsai.hiwaay.net by fly.HiWAAY.net; (8.8.2/1.1.8.2/21Sep95-1003PM) id OAA05670; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 14:35:27 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3273C758.3F54BC7E@hiwaay.net> Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 14:34:32 -0600 From: Steve Price X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chuckr@glue.umd.edu CC: richardc@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: -current failed References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Chuck Robey wrote: > > > Doing a make world automatically does the make obj for you. Make cleandir > kills them. If there isn't a obj directory avaialble when the make > starts, then the obj's fall into the source directories. One very common > error is the do make clean, and think your objs are really clean. They > aren't, the .depend files survive, and cause grief. > Attached is a patch to /usr/share/mk/bsd.dep.mk that I use to get rid of the .depend file when make clean is done. I didn't commit it b/c I don't think everybody (or even the majority) wants this, but you might give it a try if you like the functionality. Steve RCS file: /u/FreeBSD/cvs/src/share/mk/bsd.dep.mk,v retrieving revision 1.8 diff -u -r1.8 bsd.dep.mk --- bsd.dep.mk 1996/08/25 05:16:55 1.8 +++ bsd.dep.mk 1996/10/27 20:26:09 @@ -30,6 +30,7 @@ MKDEPCMD?= mkdep DEPENDFILE?= .depend +CLEANFILES+= ${DEPENDFILE} # some of the rules involve .h sources, so remove them from mkdep line .if !target(depend) > I don't know why this all is, I'm not as closely plugged into the make > files as I could be. > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- > Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data > chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. > 9120 Edmonston Ct #302 | > Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and n3lxx, both FreeBSD > (301) 220-2114 | version 2.2 current -- and great FUN! > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 12:40:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA11756 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 12:40:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from grumble.grondar.za (root@grumble.grondar.za [196.7.18.130]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA11751 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 12:40:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from grumble.grondar.za (mark@localhost.grondar.za [127.0.0.1]) by grumble.grondar.za (8.8.2/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA19059; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 22:39:46 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199610272039.WAA19059@grumble.grondar.za> To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD-current users), rlb@mindspring.com (Ron Bolin) Subject: Re: Warning building usr.bin/bdes Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 22:39:45 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch wrote: > As Ron Bolin wrote: > > > ===> usr.bin/bdes > > cc -O -c /usr/src/secure/usr.bin/bdes/bdes.c > > cc -O -L/usr/obj/usr/src/secure/usr.bin/bdes/../../lib/libcipher -o > > bdes bdes > > .o -lcipher > > bdes.o: WARNING! des_setkey(3) not present in the system! > > bdes.o: WARNING! des_cipher(3) not present in the system! > > I've also noticed this. That's with the internation crypto CVS, in > case this makes a difference. I reported this a few months back. It seems to make no diffs to the running of the app., and someone on the list (Nate? JDP?) said it was a linking(?) problem. Either way, I ignore it with no ill effects. M -- Mark Murray 46 Harvey Rd, Claremont, Cape Town 7700, South Africa +27 21 61-3768 GMT+0200 Finger mark@grondar.za for PGP key From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 12:47:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA11945 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 12:47:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from po1.glue.umd.edu (po1.glue.umd.edu [129.2.128.44]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA11940 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 12:47:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from maryann.eng.umd.edu (maryann.eng.umd.edu [129.2.103.22]) by po1.glue.umd.edu (8.8.2/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA17878; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 15:47:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by maryann.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA01362; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 15:47:32 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: maryann.eng.umd.edu: chuckr owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 15:47:32 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@maryann.eng.umd.edu To: Edwin Burley cc: Veggy Vinny , "Marc G. Fournier" , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: -current failed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 27 Oct 1996, Edwin Burley wrote: > > ---------------------------------- > E-Mail: khan@vnet.net > Date: 10/27/96 > Time: 15:13:43 > ---------------------------------- > So what is the right why to get current to compile... > because am system is kicking out at the function.c file in the > ./../../../cc/cc_int dir.... That's not enough to go on. Need the actual error lines, if it were a real bug. Of course, it clearly isn't, because all the rest of us can build current just fine. I just tried it again, with a really clean system, nothing is broke. Most of the time, this is either because your copy of the sources is somehow garbled, or because you have some trash somehow in either your obj or source dirs. The connonically right way is cd to /usr/src, do a make cleandir (killing your entire /usr/obj), and doing a make world. This ONLY will work if your sources are good. The stuff in current works, it's not broken, so if this doesn't work for you, either your sources are messed up, or your obj files aren't really clean. I think using something like Steve Price's patch for make clean, which makes the .depend files get cleaned, would stop at least a good part of the complaints, those caused by old stuff in the obj dirs. Using John Polstra's great cvsup instead of sup would fix many of the sup problems, too. Why can't sup be put to bed permanently, now that we know for sure that cvsup works dandy? > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 9120 Edmonston Ct #302 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and n3lxx, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 2.2 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 12:53:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA12360 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 12:53:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA12351 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 12:53:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (richardc@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA14374; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 12:52:50 -0800 Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 12:52:43 -0800 (PST) From: Veggy Vinny To: Chuck Robey cc: Edwin Burley , "Marc G. Fournier" , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: -current failed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 27 Oct 1996, Chuck Robey wrote: > I think using something like Steve Price's patch for make clean, which > makes the .depend files get cleaned, would stop at least a good part of > the complaints, those caused by old stuff in the obj dirs. Using John > Polstra's great cvsup instead of sup would fix many of the sup problems, > too. Why can't sup be put to bed permanently, now that we know for sure > that cvsup works dandy? Hmmm, is cvsup the same way? I thought you had to grab the entire source tree each time or something... Vince GaiaNet Corporation - Unix Netowking Operations From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 13:06:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA12768 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:06:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from po1.glue.umd.edu (po1.glue.umd.edu [129.2.128.44]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA12763 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:06:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from maryann.eng.umd.edu (maryann.eng.umd.edu [129.2.103.22]) by po1.glue.umd.edu (8.8.2/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA18405; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 16:06:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by maryann.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA01446; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 16:05:36 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: maryann.eng.umd.edu: chuckr owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 16:05:36 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@maryann.eng.umd.edu To: Veggy Vinny cc: Edwin Burley , "Marc G. Fournier" , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: -current failed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 27 Oct 1996, Veggy Vinny wrote: > > > On Sun, 27 Oct 1996, Chuck Robey wrote: > > > I think using something like Steve Price's patch for make clean, which > > makes the .depend files get cleaned, would stop at least a good part of > > the complaints, those caused by old stuff in the obj dirs. Using John > > Polstra's great cvsup instead of sup would fix many of the sup problems, > > too. Why can't sup be put to bed permanently, now that we know for sure > > that cvsup works dandy? > > Hmmm, is cvsup the same way? I thought you had to grab the entire > source tree each time or something... I just realized why what I said above is wrong. JDP wrote cvsup in Modula-3, which is itself big enough to choke a horse, so cvsup will not go into the source tree without a rewrite. Yes, it's much better, and static versions (not requiring the modula-3 shared libs) are in incoming at ftp.freebsd.org. CVSup will fix many problems with your sources that sup won't. ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 9120 Edmonston Ct #302 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and n3lxx, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 2.2 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 13:12:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA13025 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:12:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA13020 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:12:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (richardc@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA15267; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:13:27 -0800 Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:13:25 -0800 (PST) From: Veggy Vinny To: Chuck Robey cc: Edwin Burley , "Marc G. Fournier" , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: -current failed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 27 Oct 1996, Chuck Robey wrote: > I just realized why what I said above is wrong. JDP wrote cvsup in > Modula-3, which is itself big enough to choke a horse, so cvsup will not > go into the source tree without a rewrite. Yes, it's much better, and > static versions (not requiring the modula-3 shared libs) are in incoming > at ftp.freebsd.org. CVSup will fix many problems with your sources that > sup won't. Does cvssup work the same way as sup as it'll just update the src tree with the updated files or will it rewrite the entire thing each time? Vince GaiaNet Corporation - Unix Networking Operations - GUS Mailing Lists Admin From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 13:17:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA13224 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:17:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from quagmire.ki.net (root@quagmire.ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA13219 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:17:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by quagmire.ki.net (8.8.2/8.7.5) with SMTP id QAA09162 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 16:17:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 16:17:04 -0500 (EST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: current@freebsd.org Subject: Complete upgrade, some problems... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi.. last night, because of the panic problems I've been experiencing, I decided to spend a few extra hours at the office and go through both of my systems and make sure *everything* is upgraded. Other then a few of the "directory doesn't exist" problems, the upgrade went beautifully. Now, two bugs that I've noticed so far. I run screen, so when I started up screen this morning, I found this on one of them: fatal process exception: privileged instruction fault fatal process exception: page fault, fault VA = 0x806152 The other thing I'm experiencing is: Oct 27 16:10:21 spirit rwhod[117]: whod.spirit: Permission denied Oct 27 16:11:02 spirit rwhod[117]: whod.clio: Permission denied Oct 27 16:11:48 spirit rwhod[117]: whod.eratos: Permission denied Oct 27 16:12:05 spirit rwhod[117]: whod.quagmire: Permission denied Oct 27 16:12:39 spirit rwhod[117]: whod.else: Permission denied Oct 27 16:12:46 spirit rwhod[117]: whod.zeus: Permission denied This happens on both of the machines. Permissions on /var/rwho are: drwxr-xr-x 2 bin bin 512 Oct 14 19:34 /var/rwho A few of the problems experienced with the install, altho not *major*, do have the possibility of screwing up some: /usr/lib/compat doesn't exist, so libgnumalloc.so.2.2 because /usr/lib/compat when it tries to install. /usr/include/g++/std didn't exist, so everything to be installed in there from libstdc++ gets shoved into /usr/include/g++, which causes the compilation of groff to fail. /usr/share/libg++ also doesn't exist, but I can't recall where this one got screwed up... Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 13:23:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA14656 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:23:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from quagmire.ki.net (root@quagmire.ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA14590 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:23:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by quagmire.ki.net (8.8.2/8.7.5) with SMTP id QAA09241; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 16:23:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 16:23:39 -0500 (EST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Chuck Robey cc: Edwin Burley , Veggy Vinny , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: -current failed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 27 Oct 1996, Chuck Robey wrote: > On Sun, 27 Oct 1996, Edwin Burley wrote: > > > > > ---------------------------------- > > E-Mail: khan@vnet.net > > Date: 10/27/96 > > Time: 15:13:43 > > ---------------------------------- > > So what is the right why to get current to compile... > > because am system is kicking out at the function.c file in the > > ./../../../cc/cc_int dir.... > > That's not enough to go on. Need the actual error lines, if it were a > real bug. Of course, it clearly isn't, because all the rest of us can > build current just fine. I just tried it again, with a really clean > system, nothing is broke. > Careful Chuck...see my other message :) There are some bugs in the upgrade procedure when you come from a relatively old -current system (ie. over a month old). The main problem seems to be with directories not existing, so they are essentially 'one time only' problems, but there nonetheless.. Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 13:27:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA15632 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:27:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from po1.glue.umd.edu (po1.glue.umd.edu [129.2.128.44]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA15611 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:27:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from maryann.eng.umd.edu (maryann.eng.umd.edu [129.2.103.22]) by po1.glue.umd.edu (8.8.2/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA19089; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 16:27:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by maryann.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA02047; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 16:27:25 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: maryann.eng.umd.edu: chuckr owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 16:27:25 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@maryann.eng.umd.edu To: Veggy Vinny cc: Edwin Burley , "Marc G. Fournier" , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: -current failed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 27 Oct 1996, Veggy Vinny wrote: > > > On Sun, 27 Oct 1996, Chuck Robey wrote: > > > I just realized why what I said above is wrong. JDP wrote cvsup in > > Modula-3, which is itself big enough to choke a horse, so cvsup will not > > go into the source tree without a rewrite. Yes, it's much better, and > > static versions (not requiring the modula-3 shared libs) are in incoming > > at ftp.freebsd.org. CVSup will fix many problems with your sources that > > sup won't. > > Does cvssup work the same way as sup as it'll just update the src > tree with the updated files or will it rewrite the entire thing each time? Vince, I don't use cvsup or sup, I use ctm (the best!) but I understand that cvsup does look at what you have locally, and only send differences. It does a better job of getting rid of extra files you have, that you aren't supposed to have, I think. I'm not going to respond to further sup or cvsup questions, I'm the wrong guy to ask on that. Go get the files from ftp.freebsd.org and read the READMEs, they explain it. ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 9120 Edmonston Ct #302 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and n3lxx, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 2.2 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 13:33:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA16505 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:33:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (troutmask.apl.washington.edu [128.95.76.54]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA16500 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:33:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from sgk@localhost) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) id NAA07741; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:33:32 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven G. Kargl" Message-Id: <199610272133.NAA07741@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> Subject: Re: -current failed In-Reply-To: from Veggy Vinny at "Oct 27, 96 12:52:43 pm" To: richardc@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (Veggy Vinny) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:33:32 -0800 (PST) Cc: chuckr@glue.umd.edu, khan@vnet.net, scrappy@ki.net, current@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Veggy Vinny: > > > On Sun, 27 Oct 1996, Chuck Robey wrote: > > > too. Why can't sup be put to bed permanently, now that we know for sure > > that cvsup works dandy? > > Hmmm, is cvsup the same way? I thought you had to grab the entire > source tree each time or something... > Sup works just fine. The last, and only, time I looked into cvsup, I needed to install a >50Mbyte modula-3 port. This is not a good use of disk space for those with limited resources and limited $$$. -- Steve From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 13:33:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA16480 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:33:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from po1.glue.umd.edu (po1.glue.umd.edu [129.2.128.44]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA16464 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:33:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from maryann.eng.umd.edu (maryann.eng.umd.edu [129.2.103.22]) by po1.glue.umd.edu (8.8.2/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA19233; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 16:32:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by maryann.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA01308; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 16:32:57 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: maryann.eng.umd.edu: chuckr owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 16:32:57 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@maryann.eng.umd.edu To: "Marc G. Fournier" cc: Edwin Burley , Veggy Vinny , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: -current failed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 27 Oct 1996, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > On Sun, 27 Oct 1996, Chuck Robey wrote: > > > On Sun, 27 Oct 1996, Edwin Burley wrote: > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------- > > > E-Mail: khan@vnet.net > > > Date: 10/27/96 > > > Time: 15:13:43 > > > ---------------------------------- > > > So what is the right why to get current to compile... > > > because am system is kicking out at the function.c file in the > > > ./../../../cc/cc_int dir.... > > > > That's not enough to go on. Need the actual error lines, if it were a > > real bug. Of course, it clearly isn't, because all the rest of us can > > build current just fine. I just tried it again, with a really clean > > system, nothing is broke. > > > Careful Chuck...see my other message :) There are some bugs in > the upgrade procedure when you come from a relatively old -current system > (ie. over a month old). The main problem seems to be with directories > not existing, so they are essentially 'one time only' problems, but there > nonetheless.. Yeah, you're right. I got past that point, and tend to be a little shortsighted because of it. Actually, making a few errors can land you back that way. That's one reason I wish sup would go away, and that Steve Price's patch to kill the .depend files on clean would go in. Between those two things, that's most of the spurious trouble reports. I wish cvsup wasn't in modula-3, so it could go into the source tree. ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 9120 Edmonston Ct #302 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and n3lxx, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 2.2 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 13:36:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA16895 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:36:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from po1.glue.umd.edu (po1.glue.umd.edu [129.2.128.44]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA16887 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:36:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from maryann.eng.umd.edu (maryann.eng.umd.edu [129.2.103.22]) by po1.glue.umd.edu (8.8.2/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA19348; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 16:36:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by maryann.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA02019; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 16:36:19 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: maryann.eng.umd.edu: chuckr owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 16:36:19 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@maryann.eng.umd.edu To: "Steven G. Kargl" cc: Veggy Vinny , khan@vnet.net, scrappy@ki.net, current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: -current failed In-Reply-To: <199610272133.NAA07741@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 27 Oct 1996, Steven G. Kargl wrote: > According to Veggy Vinny: > > > > > > On Sun, 27 Oct 1996, Chuck Robey wrote: > > > > > too. Why can't sup be put to bed permanently, now that we know for sure > > > that cvsup works dandy? > > > > Hmmm, is cvsup the same way? I thought you had to grab the entire > > source tree each time or something... > > > > Sup works just fine. The last, and only, time I looked into cvsup, > I needed to install a >50Mbyte modula-3 port. This is not a good > use of disk space for those with limited resources and limited $$$. Steve, that's not true. JDP put statically compiled copies of cvsup in incoming on ftp.freebsd.org. And sup doesn't work just like cvsup, sup will ignore problems that cvsup will fix. ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 9120 Edmonston Ct #302 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and n3lxx, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 2.2 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 13:44:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA17586 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:44:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA17578 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:44:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.8.2/8.8.2) with UUCP id WAA07184 for current@FreeBSD.org; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 22:43:45 +0100 (MET) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by xp11.frmug.org (8.8.2/8.7.3/xp11-uucp-1.1) with ESMTP id RAA06191 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 17:23:01 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199610271623.RAA06191@xp11.frmug.org> To: current@FreeBSD.org Subject: typo in pstat.8 Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 17:22:59 +0100 From: "Philippe Charnier" Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Index: pstat.8 =================================================================== RCS file: /home2h/FreeBSD.cvsroot/src/usr.sbin/pstat/pstat.8,v retrieving revision 1.9 diff -u -r1.9 pstat.8 --- pstat.8 1996/08/23 20:35:46 1.9 +++ pstat.8 1996/10/27 16:04:33 @@ -139,7 +139,7 @@ .It CAN Number of characters in canonicalized input queue. .It OUT -Number of characters in putput queue. +Number of characters in output queue. .It MODE See .Xr tty 4 . ------ ------ Philippe Charnier charnier@lirmm.fr (smtp) charnier@xp11.frmug.org (uucp) ``a PC not running FreeBSD is like a venusian with no tentacles'' ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 13:52:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA18166 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:52:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (troutmask.apl.washington.edu [128.95.76.54]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA18159 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:52:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from sgk@localhost) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) id NAA07947; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:53:17 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven G. Kargl" Message-Id: <199610272153.NAA07947@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> Subject: Re: -current failed In-Reply-To: from Chuck Robey at "Oct 27, 96 04:36:19 pm" To: chuckr@glue.umd.edu (Chuck Robey) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:53:17 -0800 (PST) Cc: richardc@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU, khan@vnet.net, scrappy@ki.net, current@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Chuck Robey: > On Sun, 27 Oct 1996, Steven G. Kargl wrote: > > > According to Veggy Vinny: > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 27 Oct 1996, Chuck Robey wrote: > > > > > > > too. Why can't sup be put to bed permanently, now that we know for sure > > > > that cvsup works dandy? > > > > > > Hmmm, is cvsup the same way? I thought you had to grab the entire > > > source tree each time or something... > > > > > > > Sup works just fine. The last, and only, time I looked into cvsup, > > I needed to install a >50Mbyte modula-3 port. This is not a good > > use of disk space for those with limited resources and limited $$$. > > Steve, that's not true. JDP put statically compiled copies of cvsup in > incoming on ftp.freebsd.org. And sup doesn't work just like cvsup, sup > will ignore problems that cvsup will fix. > I'm unaware of the contents of the incoming directory except for 5 files I placed there (4 of which are ports and packages of xfishtank and ftnchek [now out-of-date] that have yet to make it into the ports collection.) I never claimed that sup works the same as cvsup. I stated that "sup works just fine." Sup works fine as a means of getting the files if your source tree has not been screwed up. -- Steve From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 14:22:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA20086 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 14:22:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA20067 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 14:22:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id XAA06645; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 23:21:44 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA12509; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 23:21:43 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.6/8.6.9) id XAA12703; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 23:19:30 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610272219.XAA12703@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Complete upgrade, some problems... To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD-current users) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 23:19:30 +0100 (MET) Cc: scrappy@ki.net (Marc G. Fournier) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from "Marc G. Fournier" at "Oct 27, 96 04:17:04 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Marc G. Fournier wrote: > Oct 27 16:12:46 spirit rwhod[117]: whod.zeus: Permission denied > > This happens on both of the machines. Permissions on > /var/rwho are: > > drwxr-xr-x 2 bin bin 512 Oct 14 19:34 /var/rwho ...and should be: j@uriah 60% ls -ld /var/rwho drwxrwxr-x 2 bin daemon 512 Mar 14 1995 /var/rwho/ `make hierarchy' is supposed to fix this, i believe. The above has been changed some time ago, rwhod now runs as uid and gid `daemon'. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 14:32:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA20846 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 14:32:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.eu.org [193.56.58.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA20828 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 14:31:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.eu.org [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA03703 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 23:31:47 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id XAA11128 for freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 23:31:25 +0100 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.0/keltia-uucp-2.9) id VAA29758; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 21:50:38 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199610272050.VAA29758@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 21:50:36 +0100 From: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Current Users' list) Subject: Building the world without NIS X-Mailer: Mutt 0.48.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT ctm#2632 Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I run an [almost] UUCP-only machine, with only a few local users. I'd like to get smaller libs and binaries by taking the NIS code out of the system. Is it still impossible ? Could it be made possible ? BTW OpenBSD is buildable without any NIS code, I saw it on the WWW site... -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 2.2-CURRENT #26: Sun Oct 27 19:39:11 MET 1996 From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 14:51:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA22119 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 14:51:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from whistle.com (s205m131.whistle.com [207.76.205.131]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA22112 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 14:50:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by whistle.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id OAA15839; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 14:50:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from bubba.whistle.com(207.76.205.7) by whistle.com via smap (V1.3) id sma015837; Sun Oct 27 14:50:22 1996 Received: (from archie@localhost) by bubba.whistle.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id OAA14535; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 14:50:22 -0800 (PST) From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <199610272250.OAA14535@bubba.whistle.com> Subject: Strange bug related to fstat() To: current@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 14:50:22 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'm trying to track down a bug that's completely baffling to me... any help would be greatly appreciated. This is in a pretty -current environment. Within a little background daemon, the system() command is used to execute a command looking something like this: system("tar cf - file1 file2 | gzip -cf | uuencode files > output"); What's happening is that gzip is failing, and the place it fails is where it tries to fstat() standard input: if (fstat(fileno(stdin), &istat) != 0) { error("fstat(stdin)"); } The error it's getting is "Bad file descriptor". Of course, if there's any way the daemon could be causing this to happen I'm sure it is! But I can't figure out how it could. Can this error possibly be correct, unless there is a bug in gzip itself? Even if the "tar" command failed, standard input should still exist until closed, no? The only other possibilities seem to be a bug in /bin/sh or the kernel. As you can see, I need a little hint as to how to pursue this one... Thanks for any help. -Archie ___________________________________________________________________________ Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 15:18:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA24290 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 15:18:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from zen.nash.org (nash.pr.mcs.net [204.95.47.72]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA24253 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 15:18:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from zen.nash.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zen.nash.org (8.7.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA03759; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 17:13:08 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3273EC84.41C67EA6@mcs.com> Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 17:13:08 -0600 From: Alex Nash X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01b1 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.1.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Philippe Charnier CC: current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: typo in pstat.8 References: <199610271623.RAA06191@xp11.frmug.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Philippe Charnier wrote: > > Hi, > > Index: pstat.8 > =================================================================== > RCS file: /home2h/FreeBSD.cvsroot/src/usr.sbin/pstat/pstat.8,v > retrieving revision 1.9 > diff -u -r1.9 pstat.8 > --- pstat.8 1996/08/23 20:35:46 1.9 > +++ pstat.8 1996/10/27 16:04:33 > @@ -139,7 +139,7 @@ > .It CAN > Number of characters in canonicalized input queue. > .It OUT > -Number of characters in putput queue. > +Number of characters in output queue. > .It MODE > See > .Xr tty 4 . Fixed, thanks! Alex From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 15:19:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA24341 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 15:19:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA24335 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 15:19:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA18645; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 16:19:12 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 16:19:12 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199610272319.QAA18645@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: Archie Cobbs Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Strange bug related to fstat() In-Reply-To: <199610272250.OAA14535@bubba.whistle.com> References: <199610272250.OAA14535@bubba.whistle.com> Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Within a little background daemon, the system() command is used > to execute a command looking something like this: > > system("tar cf - file1 file2 | gzip -cf | uuencode files > output"); > > What's happening is that gzip is failing, and the place it fails > is where it tries to fstat() standard input: > > if (fstat(fileno(stdin), &istat) != 0) { > error("fstat(stdin)"); > } > > The error it's getting is "Bad file descriptor". ... > The only other possibilities seem to be a bug in /bin/sh or the > kernel. As you can see, I need a little hint as to how to pursue > this one... Older versions of ash (pre-4.4Lite) used to get this error all the time, so I suspect a sh bug. I don't know for sure, but it's strikingly familiar. Nate From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 15:48:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA26137 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 15:48:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (skynet.ctr.columbia.edu [128.59.64.70]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA26131 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 15:48:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wpaul@localhost) by skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) id SAA02396; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 18:47:48 -0500 From: Bill Paul Message-Id: <199610272347.SAA02396@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> Subject: Re: Building the world without NIS To: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 18:47:47 -0500 (EST) Cc: current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610272050.VAA29758@keltia.freenix.fr> from "Ollivier Robert" at Oct 27, 96 09:50:36 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, Ollivier Robert had to walk into mine and say: > I run an [almost] UUCP-only machine, with only a few local users. I'd like > to get smaller libs and binaries by taking the NIS code out of the system. You really want to go to all that trouble to save a few hundred K-bytes off a multi-megabyte installation? > Is it still impossible ? Where did you get the idea that it's impossible? > Could it be made possible ? It already is possible. Just remove the -DYP from the Makefiles for libc, passwd(1) and chpass(1), and take all the NIS programs out of the Makefiles for /usr/sbin (ypserv, yppush, rpc.ypxfrd, rpc.yppasswdd, ypbind, yp_mkdb), /usr/bin (ypset, ypcat, yppoll, ypset) and /usr/libexec (ypxfr, mknetid, revnetgroup). Note that you must disable the compilation of the NIS programs if you disable NIS support in libc; with the exception of mknetid and revnetgroup, they all depend on the NIS code in libc in one way or another. > BTW OpenBSD is buildable without any NIS code, I saw it on the WWW site... Don't try to lay any guilt trip on me, pal. You want to build without NIS, just edit the Makefiles accordingly; you saw that right here. -Bill -- ============================================================================= -Bill Paul (212) 854-6020 | System Manager, Master of Unix-Fu Work: wpaul@ctr.columbia.edu | Center for Telecommunications Research Home: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu | Columbia University, New York City ============================================================================= "If you're ever in trouble, go to the CTR. Ask for Bill. He will help you." ============================================================================= From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 21:58:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA01404 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 21:58:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA01386 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 21:57:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id SAA22872 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 18:33:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (richardc@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA00853; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 18:32:54 -0800 Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 18:32:49 -0800 (PST) From: Veggy Vinny To: Chuck Robey cc: "Steven G. Kargl" , khan@vnet.net, scrappy@ki.net, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: -current failed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 27 Oct 1996, Chuck Robey wrote: > Steve, that's not true. JDP put statically compiled copies of cvsup in > incoming on ftp.freebsd.org. And sup doesn't work just like cvsup, sup > will ignore problems that cvsup will fix. Hmmm, will cvsup provide error correction on files to verfiy it is indentical to the original? Vince GaiaNet Corporation - Unix Networking Operations - GUS Mailing Lists Admin From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 21:58:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA01405 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 21:58:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA01389 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 21:57:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id SAA22890 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 18:43:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (richardc@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA01179; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 18:43:02 -0800 Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 18:43:01 -0800 (PST) From: Veggy Vinny To: Joerg Wunsch cc: FreeBSD-current users , "Marc G. Fournier" Subject: Re: Complete upgrade, some problems... In-Reply-To: <199610272219.XAA12703@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 27 Oct 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > ...and should be: > > j@uriah 60% ls -ld /var/rwho > drwxrwxr-x 2 bin daemon 512 Mar 14 1995 /var/rwho/ > > `make hierarchy' is supposed to fix this, i believe. The above has > been changed some time ago, rwhod now runs as uid and gid `daemon'. Hmmm, what is /var/log supposed to be because it seems syslogd when booting up would time out saying /var/log already has a process or something and the machine reboots and then the second time it boots up and still say that /var/log is busy... root@bigbang [6:37pm][~] >> ls -ld /var/log drwr-xr-x 2 bin bin 1024 Oct 27 03:00 /var/log Vince GaiaNet Corporation - Unix Networking Operations - GUS Mailing Lists Admin From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 21:58:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA01539 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 21:58:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA01509 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 21:58:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id SAA22786 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 18:07:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.7.6/8.6.9) id MAA08278; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 12:49:10 +1100 Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 12:49:10 +1100 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199610280149.MAA08278@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: chuckr@glue.umd.edu, sprice@hiwaay.net Subject: Re: -current failed Cc: current@freebsd.org, richardc@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> Doing a make world automatically does the make obj for you. Make cleandir >> kills them. If there isn't a obj directory avaialble when the make >> starts, then the obj's fall into the source directories. One very common >> error is the do make clean, and think your objs are really clean. They >> aren't, the .depend files survive, and cause grief. Use `make clean cleandepend' to clean everything. If you use a separate object tree, then it is easy to check that this worked (there should be no files except directories in the object tree). >Attached is a patch to /usr/share/mk/bsd.dep.mk that I use to get rid >of the .depend file when make clean is done. I didn't commit it b/c I >don't think everybody (or even the majority) wants this, but you >might give it a try if you like the functionality. >+CLEANFILES+= ${DEPENDFILE} This is faster, because `make clean cleandepend' traverses the tree twice. Bruce From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 21:59:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA01833 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 21:59:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA01811 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 21:59:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from answerman.mindspring.com (answerman.mindspring.com [204.180.128.8]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id RAA22630 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 17:24:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from rlb.users.mindspring.com (user-168-121-25-139.dialup.mindspring.com [168.121.25.139]) by answerman.mindspring.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA22136 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 20:26:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <32740AFC.15FB7483@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 20:23:08 -0500 From: Ron Bolin X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Is ATAPI CDROM Supported? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I anyone using an ATAPI CDROM like the NEC with 2.2X? wcd0 or wcd1?? -- **************************************************************************** Ron Bolin rlb@mindspring.com, http://www.mindspring.com/~rlb/ GSU: gs01rlb@panther.gsu.edu matrlbx@indigo4.cs.gsu.edu Home: 770-992-8877 **************************************************************************** From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 23:21:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA07666 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 23:21:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA07660 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 23:21:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id IAA29270; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 08:21:13 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id IAA20501; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 08:21:12 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id IAA02788; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 08:06:27 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610280706.IAA02788@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Complete upgrade, some problems... To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD-current users) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 08:06:26 +0100 (MET) Cc: richardc@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (Veggy Vinny) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from Veggy Vinny at "Oct 27, 96 06:43:01 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Veggy Vinny wrote: > Hmmm, what is /var/log supposed to be because it seems syslogd > when booting up would time out saying /var/log already has a process or > something and the machine reboots and then the second time it boots up and > still say that /var/log is busy... Complain at Julian about this. It doesn't really say /var/log were busy, but /var/log/run. Bruce has already pointed out how this happens. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 23:26:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA09251 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 23:26:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA09035 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 23:26:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id IAA29265; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 08:21:11 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id IAA20500; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 08:21:11 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id HAA02709; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 07:59:46 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610280659.HAA02709@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Strange bug related to fstat() To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD-current users) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 07:59:46 +0100 (MET) Cc: archie@whistle.com (Archie Cobbs) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199610272250.OAA14535@bubba.whistle.com> from Archie Cobbs at "Oct 27, 96 02:50:22 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Archie Cobbs wrote: > Within a little background daemon, the system() command is used > to execute a command looking something like this: > > system("tar cf - file1 file2 | gzip -cf | uuencode files > output"); Btw., would it work using `tar czf -' instead? > The only other possibilities seem to be a bug in /bin/sh or the > kernel. As you can see, I need a little hint as to how to pursue > this one... Try to ktrace this and look what the fstat() is getting as its file descriptor. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-current Sun Oct 27 23:32:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA10082 for current-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 23:32:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA10077 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 23:32:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (richardc@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA16097; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 23:32:54 -0800 Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 23:32:53 -0800 (PST) From: Veggy Vinny To: Joerg Wunsch cc: FreeBSD-current users Subject: Re: Complete upgrade, some problems... In-Reply-To: <199610280706.IAA02788@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 28 Oct 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > > Hmmm, what is /var/log supposed to be because it seems syslogd > > when booting up would time out saying /var/log already has a process or > > something and the machine reboots and then the second time it boots up and > > still say that /var/log is busy... > > Complain at Julian about this. > > It doesn't really say /var/log were busy, but /var/log/run. Bruce has > already pointed out how this happens. Oh okay, is it supposed to reboot the machine though since the first time I boot FreeBSD, it will reboot itelf then the next time when it says that, it works.... Vince GaiaNet Corporation - Unix Networking Operations - GUS Mailing Lists Admin From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 00:35:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA12671 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 00:35:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from marble.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp (marble.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp [133.6.57.68]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA12646 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 00:34:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from marble.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by marble.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp (8.7.6/3.4W4) with ESMTP id RAA02181; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 17:33:12 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199610280833.RAA02181@marble.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp> To: kato@eclogite.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: patch for Cyrix/Ti 486SLC/DLC CPU bug In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 11 Sep 1996 20:39:15 +0900" References: <199609111139.UAA00456@marble.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.05+ on Emacs 19.28.1, Mule 2.3 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 03 72 85 36 62 46 23 03 52 B1 10 22 44 10 0D 9E Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 17:33:11 +0900 From: KATO Takenori Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 11 Sep 1996 20:39:15 +0900, I said: > 1) FPU exception is handled by interrupt gate (machdep.c). ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ (page fault exception) > 2) The function trap gets fault page address as soon as possible > (trap.c). > 3) The functions pmap_update_{1,2}pg don't use LMSW instruction > but call pmap_update in cpufunc.h (pmap.c). > 1 and 2 are effective for strange signal 11, and 3 is for page fault. I got a report from a TI 486DLC2 user about the pmap_update problem (No. 3). He installed most recent FreeBSD-current, and his kernel doesn't panic. However, he said that page fault related problem still exists, and interruption should be disabled before getting page fault address on his machine. This problem rarely appears on my Cyrix 5x86 box. I added some debug code which shows rcr2() in the function trap(). When rcr2() returns zero, a process is terminated by signal 11. ---- KATO Takenori Dept. Earth Planet. Sci., Nagoya Univ., Nagoya, 464-01, Japan PGP public key: finger kato@eclogite.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 00:43:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA13277 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 00:43:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from pcpsj.pfcs.com (harlan.fred.net [205.252.219.31]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA13268 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 00:43:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mumps.pfcs.com (mumps.pfcs.com [192.52.69.11]) by pcpsj.pfcs.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA06444 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 03:43:19 -0500 Received: from localhost by mumps.pfcs.com with SMTP id AA11455 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 28 Oct 1996 03:43:17 -0500 To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: "make install" for subsequent machines? Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 03:43:16 -0400 Message-Id: <11453.846492196@mumps.pfcs.com> From: Harlan Stenn Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk One of the machines on my network stays -current wich cvsup. Periodically, I do a "make world" using the -current repository on one machine. Whenever I've tried (in the past) to upgrade/install other machines using the -current src and obj trees, I've noticed that many things get recompiled. How can I "install" from a -current src and obj hierarchy on other machines without having to recompile various bits? If this is documented somewhere, please let me know. I didn't see it in the FAQ or handbook. H From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 01:17:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA15131 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 01:17:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from pcpsj.pfcs.com (harlan.fred.net [205.252.219.31]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA15122 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 01:17:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mumps.pfcs.com (mumps.pfcs.com [192.52.69.11]) by pcpsj.pfcs.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id EAA06510 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 04:17:15 -0500 Received: from localhost by mumps.pfcs.com with SMTP id AA11871 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 28 Oct 1996 04:17:13 -0500 To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PIC+EISA Recommendations? Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 04:17:12 -0400 Message-Id: <11867.846494232@mumps.pfcs.com> From: Harlan Stenn Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Thanks to those who responded to me about this. It looks like the way to go is for me to leave my present EISA system alone and just get a "regular" PCI-capable motherboard and a new SCSI controller. H From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 01:31:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA15727 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 01:31:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from shadows.aeon.net (bsdcur@shadows.aeon.net [194.100.41.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA15713 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 01:31:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bsdcur@localhost) by shadows.aeon.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id LAA15942 for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 11:31:26 +0200 (EET) From: mika ruohotie Message-Id: <199610280931.LAA15942@shadows.aeon.net> Subject: question... To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 11:31:26 +0200 (EET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk i havent dared to upgrade my system lately. now i think the -current seems again stable/working enough that i might want to consider it... but since i've seen many people with some probs in apparently similar task, i would be happy to know what is the "right" way to proceed... my last make world seems to be from aug 29th, and last kernel is from sep 5th i have suped the srcs regulary, so those are "on time" assuptations: first i should make a new kernel, then make the 'make' (ofcourse i tell 'rm -rf /usr/obj' first) or am i not right? what then? i doubt the 'make world' would go thru nicely... i do not wish to trash my machine... =) mickey -- mika ruohotie mika@aeon.net From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 02:05:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA17060 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 02:05:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from nike.efn.org (resnet.uoregon.edu [128.223.170.28]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA17051 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 02:05:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nike.efn.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA26226; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 02:02:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 02:02:16 -0800 (PST) From: John-Mark Gurney X-Sender: jmg@nike Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney To: Harlan Stenn cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: "make install" for subsequent machines? In-Reply-To: <11453.846492196@mumps.pfcs.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 28 Oct 1996, Harlan Stenn wrote: > One of the machines on my network stays -current wich cvsup. > > Periodically, I do a "make world" using the -current repository on one > machine. > > Whenever I've tried (in the past) to upgrade/install other machines > using the -current src and obj trees, I've noticed that many things get > recompiled. > > How can I "install" from a -current src and obj hierarchy on other > machines without having to recompile various bits? from src/Makefile: # The intended user-driven targets are: # world - rebuild *everything*, including glue to help do upgrades. # reinstall - use an existing (eg: NFS mounted) build to do an update. # update - convenient way to update your source tree (eg: sup/cvs) # most - build user commands, no libraries or include files # installmost - install user commands, no libraries or include files # all - run through SUBDIR and build everything. This is an implicit # rule, not particularly useful for everybody. Use 'world'. looks like you want make reinstall > If this is documented somewhere, please let me know. I didn't see it in > the FAQ or handbook. it's in the source :) "Use the Source Luke" (I think jkh but I'm not sure :) )... ttyl.. John-Mark gurney_j@efn.org http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ Modem/FAX: (541) 683-6954 (FreeBSD Box) Live in Peace, destroy Micro$oft, support free software, run FreeBSD (unix) From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 02:22:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA17597 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 02:22:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from innocence.interface-business.de (innocence.interface-business.de [193.101.57.202]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA17592 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 02:21:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from ida.interface-business.de (ida.interface-business.de [193.101.57.203]) by innocence.interface-business.de (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA27110 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 11:20:30 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by ida.interface-business.de (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA18548 for freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 11:27:20 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610281027.LAA18548@ida.interface-business.de> Subject: /dev/log changes To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD-current users) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 11:27:20 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@interface-business.de (Joerg Wunsch) X-Phone: +49-351-31809-14 X-Fax: +49-351-3361187 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL15 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk CHANGE REQUIRED: I've finally corrected Julian's patches for the transition from /dev/log to /var/run/log. syslogd(8) no longer attempts to create the transitional symlink now (this was bogus [*]), but this is done inside /etc/rc. However, the latter file is not being automatically updated by a `make world', hence you must apply the following patch manually: Index: /usr/src/etc/rc =================================================================== diff -u -r1.102 -r1.103 [ $ Id $ hunk deleted ] --- rc 1996/10/21 20:09:30 1.102 +++ rc 1996/10/28 08:28:02 1.103 @@ -121,7 +121,6 @@ rm -f /etc/nologin rm -f /var/spool/lock/* rm -rf /var/spool/uucp/.Temp/* -rm -f /dev/log (cd /var/run && { cp /dev/null utmp; chmod 644 utmp; }) # @@ -169,6 +168,13 @@ # echo -n starting system daemons: +# Transitional symlink (for the next couple of years :) until all +# binaries had a chance to move towards /var/run/log. +if [ ! -h /dev/log ] ; then + # might complain for r/o root f/s + ln -sf /var/run/log /dev/log +fi +rm -f /var/run/log echo ' syslogd.'; syslogd echo -n starting early network daemons: Probably nothing really bad will happen if you don't; infact, i wouldn't be surprised if you didn't notice it at all... Only statically compiled old binaries using syslog(3) will break and fail to log their events. Netscape's navigator has a reference to it, but i'm not sure when it will ever attempt to log something. Recompiled statically linked binaries after a `make world', and all dynamic binaries will automatically pick up the new location. [*] It broke badly if savecore ran before syslogd and actually saved a coredump. There was no real need to obfuscate this symlink inside syslogd(8), /etc/rc being a much more obvious place for it. -- J"org Wunsch Unix support engineer joerg_wunsch@interface-business.de http://www.interface-business.de/~j From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 03:57:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA21852 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 03:57:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.tfs.com (disn3.cybercity.dk [194.16.57.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA21846 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 03:57:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA01363 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 12:57:23 +0100 (MET) To: current@freebsd.org Subject: test DEVFS! In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 28 Oct 1996 03:36:11 PST." <199610281136.DAA21121@freefall.freebsd.org> Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 12:57:23 +0100 Message-ID: <1361.846503843@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Please start shaking out DEVFS now. I know that at least a disk-less system will do the right thing if compiled with DEVFS_ROOT now. There are probably still some problems with getting all the disk-devices created, but I belive Bruce is working on that. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 04:48:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA23890 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 04:48:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA23885 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 04:48:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA02692; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 04:47:36 -0800 (PST) To: "Steven G. Kargl" cc: richardc@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (Veggy Vinny), chuckr@glue.umd.edu, khan@vnet.net, scrappy@ki.net, current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: -current failed In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:33:32 PST." <199610272133.NAA07741@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 04:47:36 -0800 Message-ID: <2690.846506856@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Sup works just fine. The last, and only, time I looked into cvsup, > I needed to install a >50Mbyte modula-3 port. This is not a good But you don't. Install the package at ftp://freefall.freebsd.org/pub/CVSup Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 05:45:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA25907 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 05:45:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from troll.uunet.ca (troll.uunet.ca [142.77.1.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA25891 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 05:45:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by troll.uunet.ca with SMTP id <21003-28468>; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 08:44:49 -0500 Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 08:44:46 -0500 From: Cat Okita To: John Fieber cc: "Daniel M. Eischen" , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Experiences with CDE for FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 25 Oct 1996, John Fieber wrote: > On Thu, 24 Oct 1996, Daniel M. Eischen wrote: > > > o The Screen lock and saver do not work (although the package > > xlockmore works just fine). I may have something misconfigured > > on my end because the CDE error log file shows: > > > > "Unable to lock display due to security restrictions." > > For what its worth, I get the same thing on some Solaris boxes I > have access to. Never had that problem with CDE - with xlock, at least, you often need to override the 'security' on your display, so that it will let you lock it. Cat From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 07:54:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA03202 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 07:54:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA03197 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 07:54:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from hawk.pearson.udel.edu (hawk.pearson.udel.edu [128.175.64.150]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id HAA24667 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 07:54:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from hawk.pearson.udel.edu (localhost.udel.edu [127.0.0.1]) by hawk.pearson.udel.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA00744 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 10:52:44 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199610281552.KAA00744@hawk.pearson.udel.edu> To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Jaz Woes? Organization: Broken Toys Unlimited Reply-To: alexandr@hawk.pearson.udel.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <740.846517964.1@hawk.pearson.udel.edu> Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 10:52:44 -0500 From: Jerry Alexandratos Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk First, let me thank everyone who helped me out with getting this Jaz drive up and running. The words of encouragement were as helpful as the suggestions. I'm getting some flakey results, and I was wondering if someone could tell me where they think they're coming from. Now, whenever I try to decompress a large file onto the Jaz drive, the file will uncompress, than after a few seconds, my machine will hang and reboot. 8( The latest instance that I can think of is when I was uncompressing the netcon tarball earlier today. I think that it may be the PAS16 SCSI interface that's causing a bottleneck somewhere, or it may need to be tweaked. For some reason, I'm getting parity errors and dma timeouts from nca0. I've included the relevant dmesg output at the bottom of this message. Any and all pointers would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance... --Jerry 8) Jerry Alexandratos % "Nothing inhabits my (8 8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu % thoughts, and oblivion (8 8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu % drives my desires." (8 FreeBSD 2.2-961014-SNAP #0: Sun Oct 27 21:58:06 EST 1996 alexandr@hawk.pearson.udel.edu:/usr/src/sys/compile/HAWK . . . nca0 at 0x1f88-0x1f8b irq 10 on isa nca0: type ProAudioSpectrum-16 nca0 waiting for scsi devices to settle (nca0:3:0): "NEC CD-ROM DRIVE:400 2.0" type 5 removable SCSI 2 cd0(nca0:3:0): CD-ROM cd present [310422 x 2048 byte records] (nca0:4:0): "iomega jaz 1GB H.71" type 0 removable SCSI 2 sd0(nca0:4:0): Direct-Access sd0(nca0:4:0): ILLEGAL REQUEST asc:24,0 Invalid field in CDB sd0 could not mode sense (4). Using ficticious geometry 1021MB (2091050 512 byte sectors) npx0 on motherboard npx0: INT 16 interface nca0/4/0 parity error nca0/4/0 parity error nca0/4/0 parity error nca0/4/0 parity error nca0/4/0 parity error nca0/4/0 parity error nca0/4/0 parity error nca0/4/0 parity error nca0/4/0 too many parity errors, not logging any more nca: pseudo-dma timeout nca: pseudo-dma timeout nca: pseudo-dma timeout sd0(nca0:4:0): UNIT ATTENTION asc:29,0 sd0(nca0:4:0): Power on, reset, or bus device reset occurred sd0(nca0:4:0): ILLEGAL REQUEST asc:24,0 Invalid field in CDB sd0 could not mode sense (4). Using ficticious geometry From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 08:18:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA04680 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 08:18:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.tfs.com (disn3.cybercity.dk [194.16.57.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA04673; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 08:18:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA01745; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 17:17:45 +0100 (MET) To: alexandr@hawk.pearson.udel.edu cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Jaz Woes? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 28 Oct 1996 10:52:44 EST." <199610281552.KAA00744@hawk.pearson.udel.edu> Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 17:17:44 +0100 Message-ID: <1743.846519464@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I think that it may be the PAS16 SCSI interface that's causing a >bottleneck somewhere, or it may need to be tweaked. The parity errors I don't know about, but the timeouts are quite normal. The PAS16 SCSI hardware is suitable for CDROM drives and similar slow stuff, the HW limits it at 600 Kbyte/sec. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 09:01:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA11448 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 09:01:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA11443 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 09:01:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk (snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]) by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.2/8.8.0) with ESMTP id QAA12757 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 16:58:05 GMT Received: from cadair.elsevier.co.uk by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 28 Oct 1996 16:59:44 +0000 Received: from tees.elsevier.co.uk (tees.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.60]) by cadair.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.2/8.8.0) with ESMTP id QAA00696; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 16:59:33 GMT Received: (from dpr@localhost) by tees.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.2/8.8.0) id QAA21330; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 16:58:29 GMT To: Ron Bolin Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: sbin ifconfig fails to build References: <327228E0.794BDF32@mindspring.com> From: Paul Richards Date: 28 Oct 1996 16:58:29 +0000 In-Reply-To: Ron Bolin's message of Sat, 26 Oct 1996 11:06:08 -0400 Message-ID: <57u3rfxbyi.fsf@tees.elsevier.co.uk> Lines: 18 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.30 Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Ron Bolin writes: > In building today's current the flowwing error aborted the "sbin" make. > ===> ifconfig > cc -O -DNS -static -o ifconfig ifconfig.o -lkvm -lipx > ifconfig.o: Undefined symbol `_ns_ntoa' referenced from text segment > ifconfig.o: Undefined symbol `_ns_ntoa' referenced from text segment > ifconfig.o: Undefined symbol `_ns_addr' referenced from text segment > *** Error code 1 I still can't build libc either. Anyone managed a make world since netns was brought back? -- Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor) Elsevier Science TIS online journal project. Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155 From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 09:14:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA12187 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 09:14:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from vector.jhs.no_domain (slip139-92-42-54.ut.nl.ibm.net [139.92.42.54]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA12174; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 09:14:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from vector.jhs.no_domain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vector.jhs.no_domain (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA12214; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 23:44:14 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199610272244.XAA12214@vector.jhs.no_domain> To: Andreas Klemm cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: change mt.c's status message to report QIC-320/525 ? From: "Julian H. Stacey" Reply-To: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: Vector Systems Ltd. Mailer: EXMH 1.6.7, PGP available X-Address: Holz Strasse 27d, 80469 Munich, Germany X-Phone: +49.89.268616 X-Fax: +49.89.2608126 X-Web: http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 26 Oct 1996 15:15:12 +0200." Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 23:44:13 +0100 Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Reference: > From: Andreas Klemm > > BTW, does somebody have a list of densities / mode descriptions > above 0x17 ?! > I have http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/standards/qic.ascii It has all QICs I know of, but no `mode' numbers, I guess I should merge some in. Julian -- Julian H. Stacey jhs@freebsd.org http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 09:33:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA13838 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 09:33:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from austin.polstra.com (austin.polstra.com [206.213.73.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA13830 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 09:33:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jdp@localhost) by austin.polstra.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id JAA28503; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 09:33:01 -0800 (PST) To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Path: not-for-mail From: jdp@polstra.com (John Polstra) Newsgroups: polstra.freebsd.current Subject: Re: -current failed Date: 28 Oct 1996 09:33:01 -0800 Organization: Polstra & Co., Seattle, WA Lines: 41 Distribution: local Message-ID: <552qod$rqk@austin.polstra.com> References: <2690.846506856@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <2690.846506856@time.cdrom.com>, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Sup works just fine. The last, and only, time I looked into cvsup, > > I needed to install a >50Mbyte modula-3 port. This is not a good > > But you don't. Install the package at ftp://freefall.freebsd.org/pub/CVSup I am planning to make the entire situation regarding CVSup and Modula-3 a lot better this week. I am splitting the Modula-3 port into two pieces: "modula-3-lib" and "modula-3". The former will install _only_ the shared libraries for the runtime system. It uses a couple megabytes of disk space, if I remember correctly. The package itself (the .tgz file) is around 1 MB. I am changing the dependencies for the CVSup port so that it depends on "modula-3-lib" rather than "modula-3". People who install the CVSup package will also get the "modula-3-lib" package, but not all the other Modula-3 stuff. People who want the whole Modula-3 development system can still install the "modula-3" port/package and get it all. Here's a picture. "--->" means "depends on": cvsup ----------> modula-3-lib ^ | modula-3 ---------+ I think this new setup will address the complaints about the hassle of using Modula-3. I had hoped that the static CVSup binaries would accomplish that but they haven't. Too many people forget about them, or never find out about them, or just don't like the idea of them. Also coming Real Soon Now is SOCKS support. Keep those suggestions coming! John "All Ears" Polstra -- John Polstra jdp@polstra.com John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA "Self-knowledge is always bad news." -- John Barth From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 09:38:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA14097 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 09:38:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA14090 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 09:38:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 0.56 #1) id E0vHvd7-0002qr-00; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 10:37:41 -0700 To: alexandr@hawk.pearson.udel.edu Subject: Re: Jaz Woes? Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 28 Oct 1996 10:52:44 EST." <199610281552.KAA00744@hawk.pearson.udel.edu> References: <199610281552.KAA00744@hawk.pearson.udel.edu> Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 10:37:41 -0700 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199610281552.KAA00744@hawk.pearson.udel.edu> Jerry Alexandratos writes: : I'm getting some flakey results, and I was wondering if someone could : tell me where they think they're coming from. Now, whenever I try to : decompress a large file onto the Jaz drive, the file will uncompress, : than after a few seconds, my machine will hang and reboot. 8( I vaguely recall having to make sure parity was enabled on the Jaz drive before it worked. But that could have been any number of the last 20 SCSI devices that I've put on the bus. I do that automatically w/o thought these days. I'm using an UltraStor 34F right now, so that is at least one difference. Have you done the normal scsi checklist: Are you sure it is terminated? On both ends? Any extra termination? Repeat 1-3 until you are really really really sure :-) Are the cables good and tight and of good quality? Have you tried reseating them? Can you enable kernel core dumps (see dumpon if you don't have this in your kernel) and find out where it is dying? Warner From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 10:10:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA16849 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 10:10:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from whistle.com (s205m131.whistle.com [207.76.205.131]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA16840 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 10:10:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by whistle.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id KAA18897; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 10:10:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from bubba.whistle.com(207.76.205.7) by whistle.com via smap (V1.3) id sma018890; Mon Oct 28 10:09:59 1996 Received: (from archie@localhost) by bubba.whistle.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id KAA17366; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 10:09:58 -0800 (PST) From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <199610281809.KAA17366@bubba.whistle.com> Subject: Re: Strange bug related to fstat() In-Reply-To: <199610280659.HAA02709@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Oct 28, 96 07:59:46 am" To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 10:09:58 -0800 (PST) Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Within a little background daemon, the system() command is used > > to execute a command looking something like this: > > > > system("tar cf - file1 file2 | gzip -cf | uuencode files > output"); > > Btw., would it work using `tar czf -' instead? Yes... but the weirdness remains unexplained. > > The only other possibilities seem to be a bug in /bin/sh or the > > kernel. As you can see, I need a little hint as to how to pursue > > this one... > > Try to ktrace this and look what the fstat() is getting as its file > descriptor. I did add code to print out fileno(stdin) right before the fstat(), and it was zero, as expected... -Archie ___________________________________________________________________________ Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 10:19:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA17252 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 10:19:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za (zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za [146.64.24.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA17245 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 10:19:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jhay@localhost) by zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za (8.7.6/8.7.3) id UAA18317; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 20:17:03 +0200 (SAT) From: John Hay Message-Id: <199610281817.UAA18317@zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za> Subject: Re: sbin ifconfig fails to build In-Reply-To: <57u3rfxbyi.fsf@tees.elsevier.co.uk> from Paul Richards at "Oct 28, 96 04:58:29 pm" To: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk (Paul Richards) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 20:17:03 +0200 (SAT) Cc: rlb@mindspring.com, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL24 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Ron Bolin writes: > > > In building today's current the flowwing error aborted the "sbin" make. > > ===> ifconfig > > cc -O -DNS -static -o ifconfig ifconfig.o -lkvm -lipx > > ifconfig.o: Undefined symbol `_ns_ntoa' referenced from text segment > > ifconfig.o: Undefined symbol `_ns_ntoa' referenced from text segment > > ifconfig.o: Undefined symbol `_ns_addr' referenced from text segment > > *** Error code 1 > > I still can't build libc either. Anyone managed a make world since > netns was brought back? > > -- > Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor) > Elsevier Science TIS online journal project. > Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk > Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155 > Well a "make world" should fix that. If you want to do it manually something like this should do the trick: --------- cd /usr/src make hierarchy make mk make includes cd lib/libc make make install cd /usr/src/sbin/ifconfig make make install --------- In the libc and ifconfig directories you might have to add a "make cleandir; make obj; make depend" depending on the state of your obj directories. John -- John Hay -- John.Hay@mikom.csir.co.za From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 10:36:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA18495 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 10:36:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from helmholtz.salk.edu (helmholtz.salk.edu [198.202.70.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA18484 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 10:36:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from pauling.salk.edu (pauling [198.202.70.108]) by helmholtz.salk.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA11853; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 10:09:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 10:09:42 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Bartol To: Paul Richards cc: Ron Bolin , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: sbin ifconfig fails to build In-Reply-To: <57u3rfxbyi.fsf@tees.elsevier.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Yes, I've been able to do a make world, but I did have trouble until I just finally caved in, deleted my entire /usr/src tree and re-supped the whole thing (~137MB, not for the bandwidth challenged). I did this on Oct 20 and have had no trouble ever since. Tom On 28 Oct 1996, Paul Richards wrote: > Ron Bolin writes: > > > In building today's current the flowwing error aborted the "sbin" make. > > ===> ifconfig > > cc -O -DNS -static -o ifconfig ifconfig.o -lkvm -lipx > > ifconfig.o: Undefined symbol `_ns_ntoa' referenced from text segment > > ifconfig.o: Undefined symbol `_ns_ntoa' referenced from text segment > > ifconfig.o: Undefined symbol `_ns_addr' referenced from text segment > > *** Error code 1 > > I still can't build libc either. Anyone managed a make world since > netns was brought back? > > -- > Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor) > Elsevier Science TIS online journal project. > Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk > Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155 > From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 10:45:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA19281 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 10:45:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from GndRsh.aac.dev.com (GndRsh.aac.dev.com [198.145.92.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA19272 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 10:44:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rgrimes@localhost) by GndRsh.aac.dev.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA19478; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 10:42:23 -0800 (PST) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <199610281842.KAA19478@GndRsh.aac.dev.com> Subject: Re: -current failed In-Reply-To: <3273C758.3F54BC7E@hiwaay.net> from Steve Price at "Oct 27, 96 02:34:32 pm" To: sprice@hiwaay.net (Steve Price) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 10:42:22 -0800 (PST) Cc: chuckr@glue.umd.edu, richardc@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU, current@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Chuck Robey wrote: > > > > > > Doing a make world automatically does the make obj for you. Make cleandir > > kills them. If there isn't a obj directory avaialble when the make > > starts, then the obj's fall into the source directories. One very common > > error is the do make clean, and think your objs are really clean. They > > aren't, the .depend files survive, and cause grief. > > > > Attached is a patch to /usr/share/mk/bsd.dep.mk that I use to get rid > of the .depend file when make clean is done. I didn't commit it b/c I > don't think everybody (or even the majority) wants this, but you > might give it a try if you like the functionality. Ugly hack, that is what ``make cleandir'' does for you, thus your patch is not needed. ``make cleandist'' tears done and rebuilds the obj tree and links. -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com Accurate Automation, Inc. Reliable computers for FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 11:12:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA22240 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 11:12:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from po1.glue.umd.edu (po1.glue.umd.edu [129.2.128.44]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA22234 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 11:12:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from professor.eng.umd.edu (professor.eng.umd.edu [129.2.103.23]) by po1.glue.umd.edu (8.8.2/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA17059; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 14:12:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by professor.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA01857; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 14:12:03 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: professor.eng.umd.edu: chuckr owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 14:12:03 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@professor.eng.umd.edu To: "Rodney W. Grimes" cc: Steve Price , richardc@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: -current failed In-Reply-To: <199610281842.KAA19478@GndRsh.aac.dev.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 28 Oct 1996, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > > Chuck Robey wrote: > > > > > > > > > Doing a make world automatically does the make obj for you. Make cleandir > > > kills them. If there isn't a obj directory avaialble when the make > > > starts, then the obj's fall into the source directories. One very common > > > error is the do make clean, and think your objs are really clean. They > > > aren't, the .depend files survive, and cause grief. > > > > > > > Attached is a patch to /usr/share/mk/bsd.dep.mk that I use to get rid > > of the .depend file when make clean is done. I didn't commit it b/c I > > don't think everybody (or even the majority) wants this, but you > > might give it a try if you like the functionality. > > Ugly hack, that is what ``make cleandir'' does for you, thus your patch > is not needed. ``make cleandist'' tears done and rebuilds the obj tree > and links. That's not really true. His patch just causes the make clean to delete the .depend files, and you can immediately do a make depend/make all. If you do that following a make cleandir, you end up with object files scattered through your sources, because the make cleandir wiped away your obj directories. I'm not saying that with some forethought, you couldn't use make cleandir, because I use it myself. I'm saying that making things more complicated is causing people to make errors, which are being posted here, and those errors could be painlessly eliminated via the patch. What's the gain in not doing the clean of the .depend files? Just rebuilding them. Seems like a fair trade to me. ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 9120 Edmonston Ct #302 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and n3lxx, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 2.2 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 11:19:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA22780 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 11:19:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from GndRsh.aac.dev.com (GndRsh.aac.dev.com [198.145.92.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA22772 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 11:19:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rgrimes@localhost) by GndRsh.aac.dev.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA19557; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 11:17:49 -0800 (PST) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <199610281917.LAA19557@GndRsh.aac.dev.com> Subject: Re: -current failed In-Reply-To: from Chuck Robey at "Oct 28, 96 02:12:03 pm" To: chuckr@glue.umd.edu (Chuck Robey) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 11:17:49 -0800 (PST) Cc: sprice@hiwaay.net, richardc@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU, current@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Mon, 28 Oct 1996, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > > > > Chuck Robey wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Doing a make world automatically does the make obj for you. Make cleandir > > > > kills them. If there isn't a obj directory avaialble when the make > > > > starts, then the obj's fall into the source directories. One very common > > > > error is the do make clean, and think your objs are really clean. They > > > > aren't, the .depend files survive, and cause grief. > > > > > > > > > > Attached is a patch to /usr/share/mk/bsd.dep.mk that I use to get rid > > > of the .depend file when make clean is done. I didn't commit it b/c I > > > don't think everybody (or even the majority) wants this, but you > > > might give it a try if you like the functionality. > > > > Ugly hack, that is what ``make cleandir'' does for you, thus your patch > > is not needed. ``make cleandist'' tears done and rebuilds the obj tree > > and links. > > That's not really true. His patch just causes the make clean to delete > the .depend files, and you can immediately do a make depend/make all. If > you do that following a make cleandir, you end up with object files > scattered through your sources, because the make cleandir wiped away your > obj directories. Wonder which one is faster :-) : make cleandir obj make clean cleandepend > I'm not saying that with some forethought, you couldn't use make cleandir, > because I use it myself. I'm saying that making things more complicated > is causing people to make errors, which are being posted here, and those > errors could be painlessly eliminated via the patch. What's the gain in > not doing the clean of the .depend files? Saving time not building new .depend files when you don't need to I often have .depends that are correct, and know that, but have obj files that are in need of forcable rebuild. > Just rebuilding them. Seems like a fair trade to me. Tradition says that ``make clean'' does not remove the .depend files. -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com Accurate Automation, Inc. Reliable computers for FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 11:22:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA23058 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 11:22:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.eu.org [193.56.58.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA23048 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 11:22:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.eu.org [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA06153 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 20:22:29 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id UAA25977 for freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 20:21:51 +0100 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.2/keltia-uucp-2.9) id TAA03189; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 19:43:46 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199610281843.TAA03189@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 19:43:45 +0100 From: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: sbin ifconfig fails to build References: <327228E0.794BDF32@mindspring.com> <57u3rfxbyi.fsf@tees.elsevier.co.uk> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.48.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT ctm#2632 In-Reply-To: <57u3rfxbyi.fsf@tees.elsevier.co.uk>; from Paul Richards on Oct 28, 1996 16:58:29 +0000 Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Paul Richards: > I still can't build libc either. Anyone managed a make world since > netns was brought back? Yes: Make world done with NOCLEAN Sun Oct 27 19:53:23 MET 1996 -------------------------------------------------------------- make world started on Sun Oct 27 19:53:23 MET 1996 -------------------------------------------------------------- ... -------------------------------------------------------------- make world completed on Sun Oct 27 23:54:01 MET 1996 -------------------------------------------------------------- 14438.87 real 9505.87 user 1967.62 sys Sun Oct 27 23:54:02 MET 1996 CURRENT from cvs-cur 2632 1996/10/27 15:00:02 -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 2.2-CURRENT #26: Sun Oct 27 19:39:11 MET 1996 From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 11:32:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA25046 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 11:32:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (sprice@[204.214.4.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA25034 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 11:32:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by fly.HiWAAY.net; (8.8.2/1.1.8.2/21Sep95-1003PM) id NAA13140; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 13:31:10 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 13:31:10 -0600 (CST) From: Steve Price To: "Rodney W. Grimes" cc: chuckr@glue.umd.edu, richardc@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: -current failed In-Reply-To: <199610281842.KAA19478@GndRsh.aac.dev.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 28 Oct 1996, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: # > Attached is a patch to /usr/share/mk/bsd.dep.mk that I use to get rid # > of the .depend file when make clean is done. I didn't commit it b/c I # > don't think everybody (or even the majority) wants this, but you # > might give it a try if you like the functionality. # # Ugly hack, that is what ``make cleandir'' does for you, thus your patch # is not needed. ``make cleandist'' tears done and rebuilds the obj tree # and links. # Hmm, you are right. It is indeed ugly. But I can make my system as ugly as I want. ;) I only do this (on my machine) because that is the way that I prefer 'make clean' to work. You will notice that I disqualified this as acceptable practice for everybody. I only mentioned it because I had run into the same problem and that is one of many ways to resolve it. The intent of the following is not to invoke any religious wars, only to state the 'humble opinion' of one person, Steve Price. The words that follow go against most traditional values and are to be discarded if not found appropriate for one's taste. The average user most likely knows that 'make clean' exists but has limited knowledge of 'make cleand*'. Whereas, the more knowledgeable user (ie. the hacker), would know they exist and where to find a description if needed. This leads one to believe that one solution to the stale .depend file problem that happens so often is to make the default effect of 'make clean' to undo everything that could have been done during a 'make *'. OTH I believe that mechanisms need to exist to allow the more knowledgeable person to turn off this functionality if they so desire. The whole premise of the above is to avoid newbie mistakes and to provide hackers with as many knobs as they want to tweak. IMHO, the current state of 'make clean' is like having 'od -x' aliased to 'more'. The hacker would understand it, but it requires the newbie to swim into treacherous waters for hidden treasure. Most humbly, Steve # # # -- # Rod Grimes rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com # Accurate Automation, Inc. Reliable computers for FreeBSD # From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 11:53:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA26954 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 11:53:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA26913 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 11:53:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id UAA05070; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 20:51:56 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id UAA05119; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 20:51:50 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id UAA01386; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 20:40:56 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610281940.UAA01386@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: "make install" for subsequent machines? To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD-current users) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 20:40:56 +0100 (MET) Cc: Harlan.Stenn@pfcs.com (Harlan Stenn) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <11453.846492196@mumps.pfcs.com> from Harlan Stenn at "Oct 28, 96 03:43:16 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Harlan Stenn wrote: > How can I "install" from a -current src and obj hierarchy on other > machines without having to recompile various bits? Mount your remote machine (/ and /usr, i think) to some point, say /mnt and /mnt/usr. Then run make install DESTDIR=/mnt/ (The trailing slash might be important, i'm not sure.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 12:01:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA27773 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 12:01:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA27750 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 12:01:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id UAA05074; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 20:51:58 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id UAA05120; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 20:51:57 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id UAA01405; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 20:43:20 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610281943.UAA01405@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: question... To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD-current users) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 20:43:20 +0100 (MET) Cc: bsdcur@shadows.aeon.net (mika ruohotie) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199610280931.LAA15942@shadows.aeon.net> from mika ruohotie at "Oct 28, 96 11:31:26 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As mika ruohotie wrote: > first i should make a new kernel, then make the 'make' (ofcourse i tell > 'rm -rf /usr/obj' first) or am i not right? what then? i doubt the 'make > world' would go thru nicely... I found, when in doubt, running `make -k world', followed by `make world' is a good workaround for chicken-and-egg problems (like building libs including libstdc++ where the latter requires the new gcc first). Of course, if you wanna save time, you can `make' the various steps manually, without duplicating so much work as a `make world' does. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 12:17:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA29238 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 12:17:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from GndRsh.aac.dev.com (GndRsh.aac.dev.com [198.145.92.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA29226 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 12:17:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rgrimes@localhost) by GndRsh.aac.dev.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA19664; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 12:15:02 -0800 (PST) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <199610282015.MAA19664@GndRsh.aac.dev.com> Subject: Re: "make install" for subsequent machines? In-Reply-To: <199610281940.UAA01386@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Oct 28, 96 08:40:56 pm" To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 12:15:02 -0800 (PST) Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, Harlan.Stenn@pfcs.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > As Harlan Stenn wrote: > > > How can I "install" from a -current src and obj hierarchy on other > > machines without having to recompile various bits? > > Mount your remote machine (/ and /usr, i think) to some point, say > /mnt and /mnt/usr. Then run > > make install DESTDIR=/mnt/ > > (The trailing slash might be important, i'm not sure.) The trailing slash is redundant and may cause some strange looking log output, and possibly (though I think I fixed all of them long long ago since DESTDIR should not be part of a symbolic link) very strange symbolic links. Arguable things should be fixed so that DESTDIR is always defined, and defaults to ``/'', and that a trailing slash be required and looked for, with an error return if missing. Then the *DIR stuff (ie, BINDIR, MANDIR) should have the leading slash rip out. This change would remove a lot of ``.if defined DESTDIR'' type of stuff in the src tree. This type of change would again, IMHO, need agreement from all of the *BSD's variants out there to minimize confusion. -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com Accurate Automation, Inc. Reliable computers for FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 14:58:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA10689 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 14:58:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from quagmire.ki.net (root@quagmire.ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA10672 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 14:57:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by quagmire.ki.net (8.8.2/8.7.5) with SMTP id RAA25143; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 17:57:53 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 17:57:52 -0500 (EST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Mark Crispin cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 28 Oct 1996, Mark Crispin wrote: > Let's start with the easy part: the permissions (drwxr-xr-x or 0755) on > /var/mail are wrong. They should be (drwxrwxrwt or 01777); in other words, > "world write" with the "sticky bit". 0755 has always been wrong. > The only one I didn't think of trying :( > First, I don't understand why you say you are getting it "again". > > This error may be new to you if you were previously running imap-3.6, but it > wouldn't happen "again". If it happens, it will always happen until you fix > the permissions on /var/mail, and it will not happen "again" unless you break > the permissions again. > > Does this make sense to you? There's only a few possibilities: > 1) the permissions on /var/mail were changed back to 0755 without your > knowledge. > 2) you haven't run imap-4 before, or were not running it without > getting the message. > 3) somebody modified your copy of the imap-4 source code without your > knowledge to disable the message. > 4) something else is happening that you don't know about. > Non of the above...I ran 'make hierarchy' when I upgrade my FreeBS Mail server...they seem to believe that /var/mail shoudl be 755, it seems... CC'ng this to the FreeBSD Mailing list... > imapd. What is the EXACT error message? > > It should be: > Error creating %s: %s > with the first %s substituted with a file name and the second %s substituted > with an operating system error string. That message has everything that you > need to know. > > For example, if you get: > Error creating /var/mail/foo.lock: Permission denied > then you need to discern why the user (probably "foo") gets a "Permission > denied" from the OS when he tries to create the file "/var/mail/foo.lock". > Yes, sorry...I didnt' have a copy of the error message in front of me when I sent the email...it was meant as an approximation (a bad one it seems)...but it was good enough that you were able to give me the answer I required Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 15:11:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA12812 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 15:11:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA12796 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 15:11:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA03730; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 15:07:18 -0800 (PST) To: Veggy Vinny cc: Chuck Robey , "Steven G. Kargl" , khan@vnet.net, scrappy@ki.net, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: -current failed In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 27 Oct 1996 18:32:49 PST." Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 15:07:18 -0800 Message-ID: <3728.846544038@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Hmmm, will cvsup provide error correction on files to verfiy it is > indentical to the original? Yes. I suggest reading the cvsup documentation. Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 15:13:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA13100 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 15:13:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA13081 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 15:13:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (richardc@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA04522; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 15:12:41 -0800 Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 15:12:39 -0800 (PST) From: Veggy Vinny To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Chuck Robey , "Steven G. Kargl" , khan@vnet.net, scrappy@ki.net, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: -current failed In-Reply-To: <3728.846544038@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 28 Oct 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Yes. I suggest reading the cvsup documentation. Thanks Jordan.... I lost that original cvsup announcement made by John so had to figure out where to get cvsup first. But thanks to your input earlier, I have it now =) Vince GaiaNet Corporation - Unix Networking Operations - GUS Mailing Lists Admin From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 15:53:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA18338 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 15:53:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA18330 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 15:53:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from current1.whistle.com (current1.whistle.com [207.76.205.22]) by alpo.whistle.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA28516 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 15:51:06 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <327546DD.794BDF32@whistle.com> Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 15:51:01 -0800 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: current@freebsd.org Subject: divergence of clocks Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On our hardware here, we are seeing the clock getting out by some quite large amounts (xntpd is correcting by about a second every 20 minutes.) the RTC however seems to have the correct time (or something closer to it) what are the reasons (for not) and ramifications of, using the RTC for all getimeofday() requests? and can THAT clock be synced using xntpd as well? (I suspect that that RTC clock would not be controllable that way, and that it might be difficult to change the system clock to use the RTC.. I didi note however that the RTC is reported as producing interrupts, so wohat would it take to set Hz to 128 and use that tick instead? (interrupt priorities? etc? etc?) julian From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 16:16:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA19536 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 16:16:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from dyson.iquest.net ([198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA19529 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 16:16:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.2/8.6.9) id TAA00994 for current@freebsd.org; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 19:16:00 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199610290016.TAA00994@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Request to add this to FAQ re: swap space To: current@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 19:16:00 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This is some basic info that I would like to see added to the FAQ someday... Also, someone who knows English better than me (like one of our non-native English speaker European friends), might want to clean up the syntax!!! :-). This is a more accurate (and wordy) description of our swap space allocation reqs: How much disk should I allocate for swap? Each OS has different algorithms for swap memory allocation. FreeBSD takes maximum advantage of available RAM by fairly agressively pushing seldom used pages out to disk. The algorithm that is used by FreeBSD also requires that every anonymous page in a process be backed by an equivalent amount of swap space. Additionally, due to the way that the algorithm works, the swap space needs to be at least as a very minimum, the size of physical ram. But, ignore that statement, because in practical terms, the minimum amount of swap space should be MUCH larger... Some will quote a magic formula like swap space needing to be 2X RAM or somesuch. Well, that is sometimes low also. In fact, imagine an 8MB machine running X windows, with a couple copies of Netscape!!! (I know that it isn't a pretty sight, but imagine it anyway.) That machine will easily use up 16MB of swap space and more. On FreeBSD, the consequences of using up swap space are "not nice." It doesn't usually cause a system crash, but what the system does do is to try to protect itself by killing off processes, largest first. The best formula to use is to calculate the size of all of the processes that you plan to run, and use that value (with a practical minimum of 2 times RAM.) Figure that a heavily used X windows workstation can easily use 100MB of swap space or more. A moderately used X windows workstation, even though it is idle alot of the time, can easily use 30MB of swap for no apparent reason. The actual reason is that at one time or another, someone has run some large processes, or perhaps alot of pages are just sitting around idle, and the system has pushed them out. When the pages are brought into memory, the space that they use is not reclaimed. That is a performance optimization (however minor.) It isn't very easy to apriori determine the amount of swap space that the system will require, but frankly a single user workstation should be configured with at least 30MB of swap, and 50MB of swap is alot more comfortable. And remember, you need swap space for every anonymous page in a process. For a server application, the best thing to do is to simply measure the virtual size of each process by using ps and sum them. That measurement isn't entirely accurate, but shows the order of magnitude of needed swap space. So, to make it simple: swap-space = min(2*RAM, sum of the sizes of all processes); as usual, add some space in for expansion and for process growth. John From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 17:22:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA12876 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 17:22:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from scrooge.ee.swin.oz.au (scrooge.ee.swin.oz.au [136.186.4.20]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA12870 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 17:22:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dtc@localhost) by scrooge.ee.swin.oz.au (8.6.9/8.6.9) id MAA25150 for current@freebsd.org; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 12:24:26 +1100 From: Douglas Thomas Crosher Message-Id: <199610290124.MAA25150@scrooge.ee.swin.oz.au> Subject: Re: Request to add this to FAQ re: swap space To: current@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 12:24:25 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199610290016.TAA00994@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Oct 28, 96 07:16:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > How much disk should I allocate for swap? > > Each OS has different algorithms for swap memory allocation. FreeBSD > takes maximum advantage of available RAM by fairly agressively pushing > seldom used pages out to disk. The algorithm that is used by FreeBSD > also requires that every anonymous page in a process be backed by an > equivalent amount of swap space. Additionally, due to the way that > the algorithm works, the swap space needs to be at least as a very > minimum, the size of physical ram. But, ignore that statement, because > in practical terms, the minimum amount of swap space should be MUCH larger... ... > The best formula to use is to calculate the size of all of the processes > that you plan to run, and use that value (with a practical minimum of > 2 times RAM.) Figure that a heavily used X windows workstation can easily ... > comfortable. And remember, you need swap space for every anonymous page > in a process. ... > So, to make it simple: > > swap-space = min(2*RAM, sum of the sizes of all processes); > > as usual, add some space in for expansion and for process growth. My experience is that freebsd can use significantly more swap space than the maximum virtual size of processes. I see this when a process is continuously mapping and unmapping anonymous pages from a large mmaped region. E.g. A single process using 140M of virtual memory + a few other small processes can use up 192M. Perhaps: swap-space = min(2*RAM, 2*sum of the sizes of all processes); And: ... The algorithm that is used by FreeBSD also requires that every anonymous page in a process be backed by at least an equivalent amount of swap space, and perhaps significantly more. ... Regards Douglas Crosher From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 18:07:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA15185 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 18:07:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from dyson.iquest.net ([198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA15179 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 18:07:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.2/8.6.9) id VAA04150; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 21:07:21 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199610290207.VAA04150@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Request to add this to FAQ re: swap space To: dtc@scrooge.ee.swin.oz.au (Douglas Thomas Crosher) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 21:07:20 -0500 (EST) Cc: current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610290124.MAA25150@scrooge.ee.swin.oz.au> from "Douglas Thomas Crosher" at Oct 29, 96 12:24:25 pm Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > My experience is that freebsd can use significantly more swap space > than the maximum virtual size of processes. I see this when a process > is continuously mapping and unmapping anonymous pages from a large > mmaped region. E.g. A single process using 140M of virtual memory + a > few other small processes can use up 192M. > > Perhaps: > swap-space = min(2*RAM, 2*sum of the sizes of all processes); > > And: > > ... The algorithm that is used by FreeBSD also requires that every > anonymous page in a process be backed by at least an equivalent amount > of swap space, and perhaps significantly more. ... > Unfortunately there are at least three wild-cards: the entire virtual space is not shown by ps (there is a new mechanism, but would require a shell script reading /proc/???/map), there are issues regarding the inheritance of pages through fork, and sometimes the space is rounded up by the swap pager. Each of those can make it so that FreeBSD uses more space than the total virtual size. However, 2X should be too much but allows for significant safety factor. If you ever have a situation where FreeBSD uses more space than approx 1X the total size of all running processes, please get in touch with me. At least we can get to the bottom of it. The most accurate external indication of swap space reqs is in /proc/???/map for ranges that are mapped COW and rw access; So it would be interesting to compare the ps virtual size with the proc filesystem on various machines. That still doesn't account for SYSV shared memory regions (which can be paged also.) I agree that more swap is better, but at least we need to KILL the notion that 2 X RAM is enough (IMO, 2 X RAM is never enough)!!! John From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 18:36:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA16748 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 18:36:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail001.mediacity.com (mail001.mediacity.com [206.24.105.68]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA16739 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 18:36:14 -0800 (PST) From: brian@mediacity.com Received: (qmail-queue invoked from smtpd); 29 Oct 1996 02:36:12 -0000 Received: from home001.mediacity.com (HELO mediacity.com) (206.24.105.66) by mail001.mediacity.com with SMTP; 29 Oct 1996 02:36:12 -0000 Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 100); 29 Oct 1996 02:36:15 -0000 Message-ID: <19961029023615.7491.qmail@mediacity.com> Subject: make world : make: don't know how to make pcap-bpf.c. Stop To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 18:36:15 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: brian@mediacity.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk make: don't know how to make pcap-bpf.c. Stop I seem to be having some trouble with /usr/src/lib/libpcap, which is empty except for a Makefile. And contrib/libpcap is no where to be found. -- Brian Litzinger From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 18:40:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA16980 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 18:40:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail001.mediacity.com (mail001.mediacity.com [206.24.105.68]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA16965 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 18:40:28 -0800 (PST) From: brian@mediacity.com Received: (qmail-queue invoked from smtpd); 29 Oct 1996 02:40:26 -0000 Received: from home001.mediacity.com (HELO mediacity.com) (206.24.105.66) by mail001.mediacity.com with SMTP; 29 Oct 1996 02:40:26 -0000 Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 100); 29 Oct 1996 02:40:29 -0000 Message-ID: <19961029024029.7515.qmail@mediacity.com> Subject: opps: was problems with libpcap.c To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 18:40:29 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: brian@mediacity.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The FreeBSD-current list is truly a wonderful tool. No sooner than one sends a question to the list, does the answer become self evident. 8-) -- Brian Litzinger Powered by FreeBSD http[s]://www.mpress.com From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 18:58:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA17908 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 18:58:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA17903 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 18:58:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA04188; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 18:57:08 -0800 (PST) To: Paul Richards cc: Ron Bolin , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: sbin ifconfig fails to build In-reply-to: Your message of "28 Oct 1996 16:58:29 GMT." <57u3rfxbyi.fsf@tees.elsevier.co.uk> Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 18:57:08 -0800 Message-ID: <4186.846557828@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I still can't build libc either. Anyone managed a make world since > netns was brought back? Yes, for a long time. Are you sure you don't have an evil symlink in your /usr somewhere? Jordan > > -- > Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor) > Elsevier Science TIS online journal project. > Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk > Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155 From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 19:47:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA21106 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 19:47:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from GndRsh.aac.dev.com (GndRsh.aac.dev.com [198.145.92.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA21098; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 19:46:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rgrimes@localhost) by GndRsh.aac.dev.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA00655; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 19:46:51 -0800 (PST) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <199610290346.TAA00655@GndRsh.aac.dev.com> Subject: Re: Request to add this to FAQ re: swap space In-Reply-To: <199610290016.TAA00994@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at "Oct 28, 96 07:16:00 pm" To: dyson@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 19:46:51 -0800 (PST) Cc: current@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ... hate to pick nits but.... > So, to make it simple: > > swap-space = min(2*RAM, sum of the sizes of all processes); ^^^ max If you choose the ``min'' of the two above you would not get enough swap when ever ``sum of the sizes...'' > 2*RAM, which is what you really want. I think you confused this, and it would have been better written: minimum swap space = max(2*RAM, sum of the sizes of all processes); And in reality if you know ``sum of the sizes...'' you should always use that to calculate swap space. > as usual, add some space in for expansion and for process growth. Thats what ``swapon'' is for :-) :-) :-) :-) -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com Accurate Automation, Inc. Reliable computers for FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 19:50:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA21384 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 19:50:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA21375 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 19:50:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.7.6/8.6.9) id OAA24362; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 14:46:17 +1100 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 14:46:17 +1100 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199610290346.OAA24362@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: current@freebsd.org, julian@whistle.com Subject: Re: divergence of clocks Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >On our hardware here, we are seeing the clock getting out by some quite >large amounts >(xntpd is correcting by about a second every 20 minutes.) An error of 1 part in 1200 for the i8254 clock is not unusual. My boot messages say: Oct 28 23:44:52 alphplex /kernel: Calibrating clock(s) relative to \ mc146818A clock ... i586 clock: 132622333 Hz, i8254 clock: 1193100 Hz Oct 28 23:40:05 besplex /kernel: Calibrating clock(s) relative to \ mc146818A clock ... i8254 clock: 1193646 Hz Oct 25 09:27:40 gamplex /kernel: Calibrating clock(s) relative to \ mc146818A clock ... i8254 clock: 1192170 Hz The nominal i8254 frequency is 1193182. Thus the errors relative to the mc146818A clock on my machines are: RTC accuracy from other measurements alphplex: -82 / 1193182 = -68 ppm good besplex: +464 / 1193182 = +388 ppm bad gamplex: +1012 / 1193182 = +848 ppm good >the RTC however seems to have the correct time >(or something closer to it) >what are the reasons (for not) and ramifications of, using the RTC >for all getimeofday() requests? THe RTC is no good for gettimeofday() because it doesn't have any readable counters more precise than its seconds counter. >and can THAT clock be synced using xntpd as well? It could be used as a time base and synchronized with every now and then, either directly or via xntpd. This isn't implemented. It is only synchronized with xntpd if xntpd decides to step the clock. Then xntpd does a settimeofday() and the time is written to the RTC. The system time is not written to the RTC on shutdown because FreeBSD doesn't know if it is any more accurate than the time already in the RTC. The system time isn't written to the RTC on every xntpd or internal PLL update because there would be too many writes. >(I suspect that that RTC clock would not be controllable that way, Not directly, but it can be controlled by keeping some state in RAM, just like the i8254 clock. >and that it might be difficult to change the system clock to use the >RTC.. This would be easy. Implementing a good version of microtime() using the RTC is impossible. A fairly good version of microtime() can be implemented using the RTC and another counter with higher resolution (one of the i8254 counters or the i586 timestamp counter). Unfortunately, it It would have jitter from the RTC interrupt latency just like the i8254+i586 counter implementation had until I fixed it by reading the i8254 counter a few days ago. >I didi note however that the RTC is reported as producing interrupts, >so wohat would it take to set Hz to 128 and use that tick instead? 1. Set Hz to 128 and use that tick instead :-). 2. Fix any dependencies of the xntpd support on the magic number 100. 128 may be close enough to 100 for there to be no problem. 3. Replace microtime() by a version with a resolution of only 1 part in 128 :-(. Better method (only wortkks in -current): set the i8254 frequency to something closer to what it actually is using `sysctl -w machdep.i8254_freq=whatever'. Look in the boot messages for a value calibrated relative to the RTC. You can also configure to use this value automatically, but this only works right if the RTC is accurate. Accuracy is still limited to 50 ppm by rounding of the i8254 frequency and probably to more than that by temperature dependencies. Bruce From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 19:56:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA21764 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 19:56:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from GndRsh.aac.dev.com (GndRsh.aac.dev.com [198.145.92.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA21752; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 19:56:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rgrimes@localhost) by GndRsh.aac.dev.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA00668; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 19:56:34 -0800 (PST) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <199610290356.TAA00668@GndRsh.aac.dev.com> Subject: Re: Request to add this to FAQ re: swap space In-Reply-To: <199610290207.VAA04150@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at "Oct 28, 96 09:07:20 pm" To: dyson@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 19:56:33 -0800 (PST) Cc: dtc@scrooge.ee.swin.oz.au, current@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ... > > I agree that more swap is better, but at least we need to KILL the notion > that 2 X RAM is enough (IMO, 2 X RAM is never enough)!!! IMOH, and IMPO, 2 x ram is typically all the swap you should need, if you go beyond this need for swap your machine is under memoried and page faulting heavily. There are exceptions to this (things that manipulate massive data arrays in malloc regions (yes, I have a client with close to 4G of swap, but he also has 256MB of memory, which is maxed for his motherboard), wuarchive.cdrom.com running 1000's of processes, etc... My personal machines never have more than 2xRAM as swap, if I run out of this much swap I add more memory and resize swap to 2X: GndRsh:sales {102} swapinfo Device 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Type /dev/sd0b 32768 13376 19328 41% Interleaved GndRsh:sales {103} SkyRsh# swapinfo Device 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Type /dev/sd0b 32768 2380 30324 7% Interleaved SkyRsh# Both 16MB machines, both under utilizizing swap under typical loads, both machines started out 3 or 4 years ago as 4MB machines, both grown over time as the code has become larger (:-(), and the work load increased (:-)). Ohhh... and for real server class machines if I swap, I add memory and run swap == ram size. (From my Netware days, realize Netware requires you to have physical ram for all NLM's, otherwise you get the nasty out of memory error, module not loaded). -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com Accurate Automation, Inc. Reliable computers for FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 21:06:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA25555 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 21:06:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA25547 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 21:06:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailbox.mcs.com (Mailbox.mcs.com [192.160.127.87]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id XAA23436 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 23:06:41 -0600 (CST) Received: by mailbox.mcs.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.15) id ; Mon, 28 Oct 96 23:06 CST Received: (from karl@localhost) by Jupiter.Mcs.Net (8.8.Beta.6/8.8.Beta.3) id XAA01872 for current@freebsd.org; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 23:06:40 -0600 (CST) From: Karl Denninger Message-Id: <199610290506.XAA01872@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Subject: Crashes (page faults) and odd behavior on current To: current@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 23:06:40 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi folks, Looks like more VM problems... We're seeing odd stuff -- program which were working core dumping, crashes with kernel page faults (nothing repeatable), and what looks like VM cache corruption (perhaps in the page area). Ideas? I know that there were VM changes made a week or so ago, but kernels I built *yesterday* are showing these symptoms. There was a change committed to vm/vm_swap.c last night -- what did it address? -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - The Finest Internet Connectivity http://www.mcs.net/~karl | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | 23 Analog Prefixes, 13 ISDN, Web servers $75/mo Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| Email to "info@mcs.net" WWW: http://www.mcs.net/ Fax: [+1 312 248-9865] | 2 FULL DS-3 Internet links; 400Mbps B/W Internal From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 21:54:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA29234 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 21:54:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA29224; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 21:54:44 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199610290554.VAA29224@freefall.freebsd.org> To: Karl Denninger cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Crashes (page faults) and odd behavior on current In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 28 Oct 1996 23:06:40 CST." <199610290506.XAA01872@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 21:54:44 -0800 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Hi folks, > >Looks like more VM problems... > >We're seeing odd stuff -- program which were working core dumping, crashes >with kernel page faults (nothing repeatable), and what looks like VM cache >corruption (perhaps in the page area). > >Ideas? I know that there were VM changes made a week or so ago, but kernels >I built *yesterday* are showing these symptoms. > >There was a change committed to vm/vm_swap.c last night -- what did it >address? I also started seeing this stuff sometime this weekend. My symptom is tar complaing about a corrupted file when untaring something large (say 11MB). Unmount/Remount the fs, and the tar extracts just fine. I was going to play around with my RAM to see if it was the culpret, but this second report makes it look like a software bug. >-- >Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - The Finest Internet Connectivity >http://www.mcs.net/~karl | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service > | 23 Analog Prefixes, 13 ISDN, Web servers $75/mo >Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| Email to "info@mcs.net" WWW: http://www.mcs.net >/ >Fax: [+1 312 248-9865] | 2 FULL DS-3 Internet links; 400Mbps B/W Interna >l -- Justin T. Gibbs =========================================== FreeBSD: Turning PCs into workstations =========================================== From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 22:05:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA29858 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 22:05:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from hamby1.lightside.net (hamby1.lightside.net [207.67.176.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA29851 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 22:05:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jehamby@localhost) by hamby1.lightside.net (8.8.2/8.8.2) with SMTP id WAA00345; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 22:06:47 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: hamby1.lightside.net: jehamby owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 22:06:46 -0800 (PST) From: Jake Hamby X-Sender: jehamby@hamby1 To: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: test DEVFS! In-Reply-To: <1361.846503843@critter.tfs.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Okay, on casual inspection, I've found three problems with DEVFS, and one observation: 1) Audio devices are not being created correctly. I have a Soundblaster 16, and the following lines in my kernel: controller snd0 device sb0 at isa? port 0x220 irq 5 drq 1 vector sbintr device sbxvi0 at isa? drq 5 device sbmidi0 at isa? port 0x330 device opl0 at isa? port 0x388 Here are the devices I now have in /dev (from MAKEDEV): lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 6 Oct 28 21:28 /dev/audio -> audio0 crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel 30, 4 Oct 24 03:08 /dev/audio0 lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 4 Oct 28 21:28 /dev/dsp -> dsp0 crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel 30, 3 Sep 26 21:57 /dev/dsp0 lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 5 Oct 28 21:28 /dev/dspW -> dspW0 crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel 30, 5 Sep 26 21:57 /dev/dspW0 crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel 30, 2 Sep 26 21:57 /dev/midi0 lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 6 Oct 28 21:28 /dev/mixer -> mixer0 crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel 30, 0 Sep 26 21:57 /dev/mixer0 lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 6 Oct 28 21:28 /dev/music -> music0 crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel 30, 8 Sep 26 21:57 /dev/music0 lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 4 Oct 28 21:28 /dev/pss -> pss0 crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel 30, 9 Sep 26 21:57 /dev/pss0 lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 10 Oct 28 21:28 /dev/sequencer -> sequencer0 crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel 30, 1 Sep 26 21:57 /dev/sequencer0 crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel 30, 6 Sep 26 21:57 /dev/sndstat And here are the devices DEVFS creates: crw-rw---- 2 root games 30, 20 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/audio1 crw-rw---- 2 root games 30, 36 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/audio2 crw-rw---- 2 root games 30, 100 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/audio6 crw-rw---- 2 root games 30, 116 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/audio7 crw-rw---- 2 root games 30, 19 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/dsp1 crw-rw---- 2 root games 30, 35 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/dsp2 crw-rw---- 2 root games 30, 99 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/dsp6 crw-rw---- 2 root games 30, 115 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/dsp7 crw-rw---- 2 root games 30, 21 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/dspW1 crw-rw---- 2 root games 30, 37 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/dspW2 crw-rw---- 2 root games 30, 101 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/dspW6 crw-rw---- 2 root games 30, 117 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/dspW7 crw-rw---- 2 root games 30, 18 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/midi1 crw-rw---- 2 root games 30, 34 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/midi2 crw-rw---- 2 root games 30, 98 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/midi6 crw-rw---- 2 root games 30, 114 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/midi7 crw-rw---- 2 root games 30, 16 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/mixer1 crw-rw---- 2 root games 30, 32 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/mixer2 crw-rw---- 2 root games 30, 96 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/mixer6 crw-rw---- 2 root games 30, 112 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/mixer7 crw-rw---- 2 root games 30, 24 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/music1 crw-rw---- 2 root games 30, 40 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/music2 crw-rw---- 2 root games 30, 104 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/music6 crw-rw---- 2 root games 30, 120 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/music7 crw-rw---- 2 root games 30, 25 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/pss1 crw-rw---- 2 root games 30, 41 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/pss2 crw-rw---- 2 root games 30, 105 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/pss6 crw-rw---- 2 root games 30, 121 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/pss7 crw-rw---- 2 root games 30, 17 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/sequencer1 crw-rw---- 2 root games 30, 33 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/sequencer2 crw-rw---- 2 root games 30, 97 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/sequencer6 crw-rw---- 2 root games 30, 113 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/sequencer7 crw-rw---- 2 root games 30, 6 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/sndstat This is wrong in several ways! First, I only have one sound card, yet there are four sets of each type of node. Second, none of the minor device numbers are correct, and indeed if I cat an audio file to /mnt/dev/audio1 it prints "Device not configured" and the kernel complains "PCM device 1 not installed." Finally, there is no symlink from, e.g. /dev/audio to /dev/audio0. 2) There is no entry for /dev/sysmouse. This is a device, managed by syscons and moused, which allows both XFree86 and syscons to use the mouse. It should be: crw------- 1 root wheel 12, 128 Oct 28 21:29 /dev/sysmouse and /dev/mouse should be a symlink to /dev/sysmouse. 3) The disk devices are not being created, as you mentioned. However, I've noticed an interesting explanation for this. The disk device is only created AFTER you mount that device node! For example (/dev is a regular filesystem, DEVFS is mounted on /mnt/dev): # ls -l /mnt/dev/rsd2* /mnt/dev/sd2* crw-r----- 2 root operator 13, 0x00010012 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/rsd2 crw------- 2 root wheel 13, 0x20000010 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/rsd2.ctl brw-r----- 2 root operator 4, 0x00010012 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/sd2 # mount -o ro -t msdos /dev/sd2s4 /zip # ls -l /mnt/dev/rsd2* /mnt/dev/sd2* crw-r----- 2 root operator 13, 0x00010012 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/rsd2 crw------- 2 root wheel 13, 0x20000010 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/rsd2.ctl crw-r----- 2 root operator 13, 0x00050012 Oct 28 21:57 /mnt/dev/rsd2s4 brw-r----- 2 root operator 4, 0x00010012 Oct 28 21:25 /mnt/dev/sd2 brw-r----- 2 root operator 4, 0x00050012 Oct 28 21:57 /mnt/dev/sd2s4 Notice how the entries for /dev/sd2s4 showed up after I mounted it? Because of removable media (in this case, a Zip drive), it seems we need a "disks" utility (indeed, this is the name of the Solaris equivalent) to probe the SCSI chain and recreate the nodes if a disk has been added or removed. I hope you have already thought of this problem! 4) Finally, an observation. There are a few devices which are created by LKM's, for example joy_mod.o. These LKM's would need to be recompiled with -DDEVFS or else they won't work for a DEVFS system. I didn't test this theory extensively, however I tried loading joy_mod.o and the joy0 device of course did not show up in DEVFS. When I unloaded joy_mod.o, the kernel panicked! All things considered, DEVFS looks very promising. However, the issues I mentioned, at minimum, need to be handled before I will consider using it on my system. -- Jake On Mon, 28 Oct 1996, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > Please start shaking out DEVFS now. I know that at least a disk-less > system will do the right thing if compiled with DEVFS_ROOT now. > > There are probably still some problems with getting all the disk-devices > created, but I belive Bruce is working on that. > > -- > Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. > http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. > whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. > Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. > > From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 22:44:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA01560 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 22:44:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.eu.org [193.56.58.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA01554 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 22:44:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA06925; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 07:43:56 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id HAA00544; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 07:43:21 +0100 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.2/keltia-uucp-2.9) id HAA05491; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 07:35:54 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199610290635.HAA05491@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 07:35:54 +0100 From: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) To: current@FreeBSD.org Cc: MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin) Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) References: X-Mailer: Mutt 0.48.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT ctm#2632 In-Reply-To: ; from Marc G. Fournier on Oct 28, 1996 17:57:52 -0500 Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Marc G. Fournier: [Mark Crispin] > > Let's start with the easy part: the permissions (drwxr-xr-x or 0755) on > > /var/mail are wrong. They should be (drwxrwxrwt or 01777); in other words, > > "world write" with the "sticky bit". 0755 has always been wrong. > The only one I didn't think of trying :( Good. Because this is wrong. Having /var/mail 1777 opens you to various DoS attacks. Having it 755 enables: - use of fcntl locking, - use of non setgid mailer 1777 has always been wrong. It is needed if: 1- dot-locking is used, 2- you need to create the folder. 1- is not a good locking scheme IMO and 2- is not needed because the folder is created by mail.local/procmail. > Non of the above...I ran 'make hierarchy' when I upgrade my FreeBS > Mail server...they seem to believe that /var/mail shoudl be 755, it seems... > CC'ng this to the FreeBSD Mailing list... If imapd needs 1777 it needs to be fixed IMO. > > Error creating /var/mail/foo.lock: Permission denied > > then you need to discern why the user (probably "foo") gets a "Permission > > denied" from the OS when he tries to create the file "/var/mail/foo.lock". If one use imapd, then one doesn't need dot locking ! > Yes, sorry...I didnt' have a copy of the error message in front of > me when I sent the email...it was meant as an approximation (a bad one it > seems)...but it was good enough that you were able to give me the answer > I required Sorry, in my opinion, this is bad and broken. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 2.2-CURRENT #26: Sun Oct 27 19:39:11 MET 1996 From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 23:21:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA02945 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 23:21:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA02940 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 23:21:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id IAA23352; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 08:21:12 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id IAA00690; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 08:21:11 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id IAA04049; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 08:08:05 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610290708.IAA04049@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Crashes (page faults) and odd behavior on current To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD-current users) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 08:08:05 +0100 (MET) Cc: karl@Mcs.Net (Karl Denninger) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199610290506.XAA01872@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> from Karl Denninger at "Oct 28, 96 11:06:40 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Karl Denninger wrote: > There was a change committed to vm/vm_swap.c last night -- what did it > address? Why don't you look yourself? :-) j@uriah 150% cvs log /sys/vm/vm_swap.c | head -50 RCS file: /home/cvs/src/sys/vm/vm_swap.c,v Working file: /sys/vm/vm_swap.c head: 1.40 [...] description: ---------------------------- revision 1.40 date: 1996/10/27 22:31:00; author: phk; state: Exp; lines: +18 -4 The way we get a vnode for swapdev is not quite kosher. In particular it breaks in the DEVFS_ROOT case. replicate a bit too much of bdevvp() in here to circumvent the problem. The real problem is the magic that lives in bdevsw[1]. ---------------------------- [...] If you run a cvs diff -u -r1.39 -r1.40 /sys/vm/vm_swap.c, you will quickly see that it's an initialization time thing, so i would suspect it being an all-or-nothing matter whether this breaks or not. Of course, if you wanna make sure about this (i assume you don't run DEVFS, so you don't strictly need the patch), simply do: cd /sys/vm cvs update -j1.40 -j1.39 vm_swap.c ...and recompile. Don't forget that CVS tries to remember your modification forever. If you wanna get rid of it again, it's the easiest way to simply remove the file, and `cvs update' again. (NB: the change was not by me, i'd only like to point out a quick way to verify suspicions of this kind yourself. This is often faster than one turnaround through the mailing lists) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-current Mon Oct 28 23:21:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA02959 for current-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 23:21:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA02939 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 23:21:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id IAA23344 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 08:21:09 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id IAA00688 for freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 08:21:08 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id HAA03985 for freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 07:55:23 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610290655.HAA03985@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/bin/sh main.c options.c options.h sh.1 To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD-current users) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 07:55:22 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199610290312.TAA18784@freefall.freebsd.org> from Steve Price at "Oct 28, 96 07:12:56 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Steve Price wrote: > steve 96/10/28 19:12:54 > > Modified: bin/sh main.c options.c options.h sh.1 > Log: > Add the -p (privileged) commandline switch > found in bash, zsh, and friends. > > Reviewed by: joerg Actually, it originates from ksh, where our (Posix') $ENV usage originates, too. The most important part now though is (sorry for shouting :): IT IS HIGHLY RECOMMENDED THAT YOU START YOUR SHELL SCRIPTS WITH #!/bin/sh -p NOW! This is in particular true for things that can be invoked by random users like login shell scripts, but might also come handy for things like /dev/MAKEDEV. For the reasoning why this is useful, refer to PR docs/1383. (This PR can now be closed after updating the ppp man page.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 00:14:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA05124 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 00:14:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from dyson.iquest.net ([198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA05118; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 00:14:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.2/8.6.9) id DAA02946; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 03:13:02 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199610290813.DAA02946@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Request to add this to FAQ re: swap space To: rgrimes@GndRsh.aac.dev.com (Rodney W. Grimes) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 03:13:02 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@freebsd.org, dtc@scrooge.ee.swin.oz.au, current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610290356.TAA00668@GndRsh.aac.dev.com> from "Rodney W. Grimes" at Oct 28, 96 07:56:33 pm Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > ... > > > > I agree that more swap is better, but at least we need to KILL the notion > > that 2 X RAM is enough (IMO, 2 X RAM is never enough)!!! > > IMOH, and IMPO, 2 x ram is typically all the swap you should need, > if you go beyond this need for swap your machine is under memoried > and page faulting heavily. There are exceptions to this (things that > manipulate massive data arrays in malloc regions (yes, I have a client > with close to 4G of swap, but he also has 256MB of memory, which is > maxed for his motherboard), wuarchive.cdrom.com running 1000's of processes, ^^ wcarchive???? :-). > etc... > Actually, enough people get caught by the problem, (especially those who use several large X apps) that it is best to be cautious. There are individuals who know better that can get by with less swap, but it is difficult in most cases to add swap later. Adding swap with the VN device is only a stopgap, and exacts a performance hit. So, the improved FAQ is for those who are installing for the first time. Those with experience can determine for themselves. John From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 00:16:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA05264 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 00:16:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from dyson.iquest.net ([198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA05257; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 00:16:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.2/8.6.9) id DAA02962; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 03:15:15 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199610290815.DAA02962@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Request to add this to FAQ re: swap space To: rgrimes@GndRsh.aac.dev.com (Rodney W. Grimes) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 03:15:15 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610290346.TAA00655@GndRsh.aac.dev.com> from "Rodney W. Grimes" at Oct 28, 96 07:46:51 pm Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > as usual, add some space in for expansion and for process growth. > > Thats what ``swapon'' is for :-) :-) :-) :-) > So are you going to add the code to properly support swapon for files? :-). I think that 2.2 is going to be frozen soon, and the risk/reward might be excessive to do it. VN devices exact a significant performance hit. In fact, the swapon for files will also. John From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 00:19:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA05390 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 00:19:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from dyson.iquest.net ([198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA05380; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 00:19:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.2/8.6.9) id DAA02970; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 03:18:09 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199610290818.DAA02970@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Request to add this to FAQ re: swap space To: rgrimes@GndRsh.aac.dev.com (Rodney W. Grimes) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 03:18:09 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610290346.TAA00655@GndRsh.aac.dev.com> from "Rodney W. Grimes" at Oct 28, 96 07:46:51 pm Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > ... hate to pick nits but.... > > > So, to make it simple: > > > > swap-space = min(2*RAM, sum of the sizes of all processes); > > ^^^ max > > If you choose the ``min'' of the two above you would not get enough swap > when ever ``sum of the sizes...'' > 2*RAM, which is what you really > want. > Earlier, I acked a correction on that point!!! Later on, a follow-up perpetuated the error. However, max is correct, and conservative enough for most applications. John From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 00:19:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA05462 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 00:19:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA05457 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 00:19:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id SAA12179; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 18:49:49 +1030 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199610290819.SAA12179@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Crashes (page faults) and odd behavior on current To: gibbs@freefall.freebsd.org (Justin T. Gibbs) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 18:49:48 +1030 (CST) Cc: karl@Mcs.Net, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610290554.VAA29224@freefall.freebsd.org> from "Justin T. Gibbs" at Oct 28, 96 09:54:44 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Justin T. Gibbs stands accused of saying: > > I also started seeing this stuff sometime this weekend. My symptom is > tar complaing about a corrupted file when untaring something large (say > 11MB). Unmount/Remount the fs, and the tar extracts just fine. > I was going to play around with my RAM to see if it was the culpret, but > this second report makes it look like a software bug. On a kernel from around the 21st or so, we had the 'dead binary stays dead' problem last night, followed by a lockup of some sort. (Couldn't tell, as the machine was running X 8( ) Naturally, I'm upgrading again. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 00:21:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA05615 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 00:21:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA05605 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 00:21:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.7.6/8.6.9) id TAA00564; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 19:17:53 +1100 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 19:17:53 +1100 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199610290817.TAA00564@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: jehamby@lightside.com, phk@critter.tfs.com Subject: Re: test DEVFS! Cc: current@freebsd.org Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Okay, on casual inspection, I've found three problems with DEVFS, and one >observation: > >1) Audio devices are not being created correctly. I have a Soundblaster >16, and the following lines in my kernel: I fixed almost everything except the audio devices a long time ago, so it's not surprising that the problems are mostly for audio devices. >2) There is no entry for /dev/sysmouse. This is a device, managed by >syscons and moused, which allows both XFree86 and syscons to use the >mouse. It should be: > >crw------- 1 root wheel 12, 128 Oct 28 21:29 /dev/sysmouse > >and /dev/mouse should be a symlink to /dev/sysmouse. Driver authors are responsible for new devices. >3) The disk devices are not being created, as you mentioned. However, This will be fixed soon. >I've noticed an interesting explanation for this. The disk device is only >created AFTER you mount that device node! For example (/dev is a regular >filesystem, DEVFS is mounted on /mnt/dev): Opening a slice creates all the partitions on the slice. I forget if opening the whole disk creates all the slices. Perhaps not. The root device is opened without going through the file system, so all the partitions on the same slice as it are there to begin with. >Notice how the entries for /dev/sd2s4 showed up after I mounted it? >Because of removable media (in this case, a Zip drive), it seems we need a >"disks" utility (indeed, this is the name of the Solaris equivalent) to >probe the SCSI chain and recreate the nodes if a disk has been added or >removed. I hope you have already thought of this problem! Opening something on it will soon work right (all the old devices will go away and all the new ones will appear), but this should not be required. Just changing the disk should do this, except if one of the old devices is open you should expect problems if you changing. >4) Finally, an observation. There are a few devices which are created by >LKM's, for example joy_mod.o. These LKM's would need to be recompiled >with -DDEVFS or else they won't work for a DEVFS system. I didn't test >this theory extensively, however I tried loading joy_mod.o and the joy0 >device of course did not show up in DEVFS. When I unloaded joy_mod.o, the >kernel panicked! I hate ifdefs. Bruce From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 00:37:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA07343 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 00:37:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from GndRsh.aac.dev.com (GndRsh.aac.dev.com [198.145.92.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA07334; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 00:37:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rgrimes@localhost) by GndRsh.aac.dev.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA01517; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 00:37:29 -0800 (PST) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <199610290837.AAA01517@GndRsh.aac.dev.com> Subject: Re: Request to add this to FAQ re: swap space In-Reply-To: <199610290815.DAA02962@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at "Oct 29, 96 03:15:15 am" To: dyson@FreeBSD.org Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 00:37:29 -0800 (PST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > > as usual, add some space in for expansion and for process growth. > > > > Thats what ``swapon'' is for :-) :-) :-) :-) > > > So are you going to add the code to properly support swapon for files? :-). I thought this was long ago working, what happened? > I think that 2.2 is going to be frozen soon, and the risk/reward might be > excessive to do it. VN devices exact a significant performance hit. In > fact, the swapon for files will also. ``swaping/paging'' imposes enough of a performance hit that my methodology already takes care of that, just don't swap more than you have memory, I rarely wait for my swap space usage to hit 50% before I toss more memory in a box. Of cource, the boarder cases already talked about are an exception to this condition (can't put enough physical RAM in most machines for them to be at 1 x RAM swapsize). -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com Accurate Automation, Inc. Reliable computers for FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 00:37:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA07388 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 00:37:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (jim@tomobiki-cho.cac.washington.edu [128.95.135.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA07381 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 00:37:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (8.7.5/UW-NDC Revision: 2.28 ) id AAA12622; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 00:28:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 22:47:51 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: J Wunsch , Ollivier Robert cc: current@FreeBSD.org, "Marc G. Fournier" In-Reply-To: <199610290635.HAA05491@keltia.freenix.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 29 Oct 1996 07:44:19 +0100 (MET), J Wunsch wrote: > I don't know if that's something imap-related, but i know that this > point regularly comes up: 1777 permissions are in 99.9 % of all cases > wrong in FreeBSD, and they are in general considered a security hole. > (There are exploitable race conditions.) I closed the race conditions at the same time that I made it NFS-safe. > The mailers theirselves use flock() to lock the mailboxes, and gotta > run with root privs anyway. Is there a problem that prevents imap > from being allowed with root privs? imapd logs itself in as the user, and runs with the user's privileges. I avoid writing software that runs with root privileges. The only time I use root privileges is when I need the ability to log in as a user. In such cases, the code which runs as root does nothing other than validate the login as being permitted, then log in as the user and discard root privileges. On Tue, 29 Oct 1996 07:35:54 +0100, Ollivier Robert wrote: > Good. Because this is wrong. Having /var/mail 1777 opens you to various > DoS attacks. For all intents and purposes, these can be closed, while still using 1777. If you can make certain additional assumptions (unfortunately on certain UNIX variants you can't), you can close the denial-of-service attacks entirely. > Having it 755 enables: > - use of fcntl locking, The ability to use fcntl() locking has nothing to do with whether or not the protection of /var/mail is 755. There are several problems with fcntl() locking, including: a) over NFS, it invokes the notorious statd and lockd daemons, which cause cluster-wide locking failures. b) fcntl() does not exist on many BSD variants of UNIX. c) fcntl() locking is not respected by many mail programs. Virtually all programs respect .lock files. flock() locking does not work over NFS at all. imapd uses flock() locking on BSDish systems, and fcntl() locking on SVR4ish systems in addition to .lock files. It issues a warning message if creating the .lock file fails, but then permits the operation. The problem is that if it can't make the .lock file, corrupted mail results when some other program insists upon .lock files and does not check flock()/fcntl(). That is why it does both .lock files and flock()/fcntl(), and why it issues the warning message if it can't make the .lock file. In the past, it quelled the warning on an EACCES error. The result was too many sites with corrupted mail files, particularly on Linux (which adopted the setgid mail religion). Most other mail software assumes setgid mail or even setuid root. imapd assumes neither. > - use of non setgid mailer Say what?? This makes no sense at all. Setgid would use 775. If you really use 755, then you must use a setuid root mailer to write .lock files. Besides the obvious danger of setuid root, this doesn't work over NFS, at least not if you use NFS in a safe way (you don't allow setuid or root access over NFS, do you??). > 1777 has always been wrong. This is absolutely false; on many variants of UNIX it is wrong for it to be anything other than 1777. > It is needed if: > 1- dot-locking is used, > 2- you need to create the folder. > 1- is not a good locking scheme IMO and 2- is not needed because the folder > is created by mail.local/procmail. Whether or not you consider it to be "not a good locking scheme", it is nonetheless the locking scheme used by most variants of UNIX, including most commercial ones. > If imapd needs 1777 it needs to be fixed IMO. This is not going to happen. imapd must support .lock files, hence it needs 1777. > If one use imapd, then one doesn't need dot locking ! That is false. imapd needs to be able to lock against mail delivery, and this means that it needs to create .lock files on most of the UNIX systems in the world. Please hear me out here... We can flame back and forth about this, without reaching any conclusion. Even if you don't agree with my position, at least try to understand it. There is a way for you folks to do what you say you want, just read on. I personally believe that: a) UNIX mbox format sucks b) delivery to a spool directory instead of the home directory sucks c) the .lock file sucks as a locking semaphore d) lock() and fcntl() suck as badly-designed, buggy, and inadequately functional locking system calls. On my own systems, I use a mail file format that is much more efficient and featureful than mbox, with deliver to home directories, with a much more sophisticated locking mechanism that permits simultaneous shared read/write access. I can't believe that anyone would use mbox format on the spool directory except to keep compatibility with the past. But!!! Those beliefs plus $.85 will buy me a cup of coffee on the Washington State Ferries (in other words, these beliefs are worthless). Whatever I may believe, I still have to contend with the old crufy way of doing things. It may be the case that .lock files are not needed on the FreeBSD variant of UNIX, or rather on some systems that run the FreeBSD variant of UNIX. But it is absolutely NOT true on other variants of UNIX, including systems which are much more common than FreeBSD. You can not guarantee to me that I do not need it on other UNIX variants. I know for a fact that such a claim is false. You can not even guarantee to me that I do not need it on a FreeBSD system; it is perfectly possible that a different mail delivery program was installed. Such things have happened. The grim truth is, FreeBSD is a minority system, run by very few sites. It is supported only incidentally; I don't even have a specific FreeBSD port, although there is a BSD, BSDI, and NetBSD port. It isn't that I'm prejudiced against FreeBSD; quite the contrary, I'm a pro-BSD bigot. But the world has chosen SVR4, OSF/1, and Linux. I try to answer all questions, even from the systems that I don't support directly. But, if I have to spend defending myself from flames on something that I really have no control over, it's likely that I will answer future messages from that community's users with "sorry, your OS isn't supported." The bottom line is: 1) No, I will not remove support for .lock files. 2) No, I will not take out support for .lock files under a FreeBSD conditional. 3) No, I will not change the advice about using 1777; this continues to be the recommended configuration for all sites. 4) There *is* a conditional that will quell the error message if an attempt to create a .lock file fails with EACCES. It is not set by default in any port. The FreeBSD hacker community is invited to identify that conditional (hint: it is in env_unix.c), and to pass out instructions on how to build imapd with that conditional set. However, doing so is at that site's OWN RISK, based upon assurances from the FreeBSD hacker community that nothing on the site will depend upon .lock file locking. I don't offer such assurances. I can't. In other words, if the quell conditional is set, it will still attempt to create the .lock files, but it won't complain if it can't. I hope that knowledge of the quell conditional gives us all room in which we can operate. What you can tell your users may be quite different from what I can tell them. What's important to me is that if: a) I get a complaint about corrupted mail b) I find that imapd was built with .lock errors quelled c) I determine .lock files *are* used on on that system after all I can tell the site that they aren't running the recommended configuration and build; that if they had run the recommended build they would have been warned about the non-recommended configuration; that's why their mail files got corrupted; and that their complaint is with whomever told them to use that configuration and/or build. Not me. From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 00:54:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA08176 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 00:54:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from dyson.iquest.net ([198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA08170; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 00:54:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.2/8.6.9) id DAA03148; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 03:53:51 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199610290853.DAA03148@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Request to add this to FAQ re: swap space To: rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com (Rodney W. Grimes) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 03:53:51 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610290837.AAA01517@GndRsh.aac.dev.com> from "Rodney W. Grimes" at Oct 29, 96 00:37:29 am Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > > > > as usual, add some space in for expansion and for process growth. > > > > > > Thats what ``swapon'' is for :-) :-) :-) :-) > > > > > So are you going to add the code to properly support swapon for files? :-). > > I thought this was long ago working, what happened? > We had experimented with it, but I have been hoping to implement a proper swapon/swapoff. There are only so many hours in a day :-). > > > I think that 2.2 is going to be frozen soon, and the risk/reward might be > > excessive to do it. VN devices exact a significant performance hit. In > > fact, the swapon for files will also. > > ``swaping/paging'' imposes enough of a performance hit that my methodology > already takes care of that, just don't swap more than you have memory, > I rarely wait for my swap space usage to hit 50% before I toss more memory > in a box. Of cource, the boarder cases already talked about are an exception > to this condition (can't put enough physical RAM in most machines for them > to be at 1 x RAM swapsize). > The issue is that there are alot of individuals who run X in 16-32MB and will complain if they cannot have 20-30 X applications running (perhaps inactive, on swap space.) You can easily run out of swap space in that condition. Those people who know that they will not run out of swap space, can configure their systems appropriately. Note that processes that are idle and paged/swapped out take no system time. It is mostly when a system is thrashing that more memory is needed. John From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 02:03:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA12379 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 02:03:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA12365 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 02:03:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk (snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]) by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.2/8.8.0) with ESMTP id KAA29649 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 10:00:23 GMT Received: from cadair.elsevier.co.uk by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 29 Oct 1996 10:03:07 +0000 Received: from tees.elsevier.co.uk (tees.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.60]) by cadair.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.2/8.8.0) with ESMTP id KAA17724; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 10:02:55 GMT Received: (from dpr@localhost) by tees.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.2/8.8.0) id KAA21885; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 10:01:53 GMT To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Paul Richards , Ron Bolin , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: sbin ifconfig fails to build References: <4186.846557828@time.cdrom.com> From: Paul Richards Date: 29 Oct 1996 10:01:52 +0000 In-Reply-To: "Jordan K. Hubbard"'s message of Mon, 28 Oct 1996 18:57:08 -0800 Message-ID: <57locqxf5b.fsf@tees.elsevier.co.uk> Lines: 27 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.30 Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: > > > I still can't build libc either. Anyone managed a make world since > > netns was brought back? > > Yes, for a long time. Are you sure you don't have an evil symlink > in your /usr somewhere? > > Jordan No, my problem is that libc/net/ns_addr.c looks like this #include /*#include */ #include #include I just checked freefall and it's obviously something wrong at my end. I checked my cvs repository and this changed isn't there so ctm must have misfired somehow. I'll try and investigate. -- Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor) Elsevier Science TIS online journal project. Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155 From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 03:10:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA17489 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 03:10:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from bourbon.sfc.wide.ad.jp (root@bourbon.sfc.wide.ad.jp [133.4.30.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA17480 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 03:10:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from bourbon (max@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bourbon.sfc.wide.ad.jp (8.8.2/3.4W409/27/96) with ESMTP id UAA05670; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 20:10:05 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199610291110.UAA05670@bourbon.sfc.wide.ad.jp> To: current@freebsd.org Cc: max@wide.ad.jp Subject: ssh on -current From: Masafumi NAKANE/=?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCQ2Y6LDJtSjgbKEI=?= X-Mailer: Mew version 1.06 on Emacs 19.28.1, Mule 2.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 20:10:04 +0900 Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I've just upgraded my system from -current about 10 days ago to today's -current. After rebooting, ssh suddenly became unusable. For the first time I executed slogin, it complained that the remote host's key had been changed. So I removed the known_hosts file and retried. This time, it says: xmalloc: out of memory (allocating -1294967293 bytes) I remember seeing someone having same kind of problem. How was his/her problem solved? Or, does anyone out there have any idea what may be wrong? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Masafumi NAKANE, Keio Univ., Dept. of Environmental Information E-Mail : max@wide.ad.jp / max@FreeBSD.ORG [URL] : http://www.sfc.wide.ad.jp/~max/ From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 05:40:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA28346 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 05:40:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from shadows.aeon.net (bsdcur@shadows.aeon.net [194.100.41.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA28340; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 05:40:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bsdcur@localhost) by shadows.aeon.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA24942; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 15:40:25 +0200 (EET) From: mika ruohotie Message-Id: <199610291340.PAA24942@shadows.aeon.net> Subject: Re: Request to add this to FAQ re: swap space To: dyson@FreeBSD.org Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 15:40:25 +0200 (EET) Cc: dtc@scrooge.ee.swin.oz.au, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610290207.VAA04150@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at "Oct 28, 96 09:07:20 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > The most accurate external indication of swap space reqs is in /proc/???/map > for ranges that are mapped COW and rw access; So it would be interesting to > compare the ps virtual size with the proc filesystem on various machines. > That still doesn't account for SYSV shared memory regions (which can be > paged also.) will there be a program available for reading /proc/???/map in any time soon? > I agree that more swap is better, but at least we need to KILL the notion > that 2 X RAM is enough (IMO, 2 X RAM is never enough)!!! somehow, i've learned the formula for swap space to be 3.5 * ram wasnt that the "old" unix way? or something. is there _any_ disadvantages from having a _lots_ of swap? since on "small" machines i tend to use, depending the amount of drives, swap from 24 to 72 megs... on each drives. on servers i tend to use 128 megs on each drive, and i always have atleast two drives... assuming i'd have 6 drives i would have some 700+ megs of swap, and probably "just" 128 megs ram, would i run into troubles? (with 2gig drive it's "easy" to give out 128 megs for swap) what i mean, is there a number above which i'd get into troubles? (like say 1024 megs) what kinds of swap spaces one needs on a news server? on a web server? i rather would not swap at all, but i'm not the one who pays the ram... =) > John mickey From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 07:31:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA02238 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 07:31:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA02233 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 07:31:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id QAA22664; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 16:25:54 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id QAA07062; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 16:25:53 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id QAA05144; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 16:24:44 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610291524.QAA05144@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 16:24:44 +0100 (MET) Cc: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, current@FreeBSD.org, scrappy@ki.net In-Reply-To: from Mark Crispin at "Oct 28, 96 10:47:51 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Mark Crispin wrote: > c) fcntl() locking is not respected by many mail programs. Virtually > all programs respect .lock files. Except for mail.local, the basic mail deliverer in the first place. Since all the locking is advisory, you are basically bound to what the mail delivery tool uses. You've got no other choice. All the .lock files will lock the various mail readers very fine -- but nobody uses multiple mail readers simultaneously. The .lock files won't prevent mail.local from delivering new mail -- hence they're useless. > flock() locking does not work over NFS at all. Only since our lockd is not yet ready. It is supposed to work with NFS, too. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 07:52:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA03620 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 07:52:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA03559 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 07:52:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id QAA23794 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 16:51:39 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id QAA07380 for freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 16:51:39 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id QAA05202 for freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 16:31:39 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610291531.QAA05202@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Request to add this to FAQ re: swap space To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD-current users) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 16:31:39 +0100 (MET) In-Reply-To: <199610290853.DAA03148@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at "Oct 29, 96 03:53:51 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As John S. Dyson wrote: > The issue is that there are alot of individuals who run X in 16-32MB and > will complain if they cannot have 20-30 X applications running (perhaps > inactive, on swap space.) You can easily run out of swap space in that You mean people like me? j@ida 834% swapinfo -k Device 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Type /dev/sd0b 153600 60280 93256 39% Interleaved j@ida 835% ps -alx|wc -l 92 The machine has 32 MB RAM, so i would be close to be out of swap if i had only 2 x RAM. :-) The above is likely to become even worse if somebody starts printing PostScript... the ghostscript runs on my machine, too. I usually almost don't notice this though. Besides, that's a typical situation where it's perfectly possible to start burning a CD-R, too. :-) (This runs with team(1) allocating 5 MB userland cache.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 09:04:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA08673 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 09:04:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu (halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu [18.26.0.159]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA08663 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 09:04:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/19Aug95-0530PM) id AA01058; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 12:04:34 -0500 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 12:04:34 -0500 From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <9610291704.AA01058@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> To: Julian Elischer Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: divergence of clocks In-Reply-To: <327546DD.794BDF32@whistle.com> References: <327546DD.794BDF32@whistle.com> Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk < said: > I didi note however that the RTC is reported as producing interrupts, > so wohat would it take to set Hz to 128 and use that tick instead? > (interrupt priorities? etc? etc?) Bruce already mentioned the other problems with using the RTC as the system clock which result from its internal interrupt timer being inaccessible. There are other problems, however. The principal problem is one which you may never see in your embedded environment, but which constitutes a serious (and not truly solved) problem in a multi-user world: if the scheduling clock and the resource-usage clock run at the same rate, then it is possible to write a program such that it soaks up almost all the CPU, but then yields control immediately before a clock tick would cause its resource usage to get updated. Thus, such a program would be immune to the normal mechanisms which cause CPU hogs to gradually lose priority. FreeBSD is still subject to this problem; it's just a bit more difficult to exploit. The RTC clock has other benefits as well which make it useful even despite this fact (in particular, other programs which run synchronous to a clock without any malicious intent will get scheduled somewhat more appropriately). The PC hardware platform is just isn't sufficiently capable---it doesn't have enough programmable clocks! 4.4BSD solves this completely on platforms which have two clocks by randomizing the period of the statistical clock (that's what the random() function in the kernel was written for), thus making it next to impossible for a malicious program to run synchronously with the statistics clock. Van Jacobson (and someone else) wrote a paper about this some years back; it's available from ftp.ee.lbl.gov. If you have more control over your hardware, it would not be too difficult to set up a better interval timer scheme. -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | O Siem / We are all family / O Siem / We're all the same wollman@lcs.mit.edu | O Siem / The fires of freedom Opinions not those of| Dance in the burning flame MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| - Susan Aglukark and Chad Irschick From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 09:29:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA10725 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 09:29:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA10717; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 09:29:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id LAA24544; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:28:03 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610291728.LAA24544@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Request to add this to FAQ re: swap space To: bsdcur@shadows.aeon.net (mika ruohotie) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:28:03 -0600 (CST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.org, dtc@scrooge.ee.swin.oz.au, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610291340.PAA24942@shadows.aeon.net> from "mika ruohotie" at Oct 29, 96 03:40:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > somehow, i've learned the formula for swap space to be 3.5 * ram The real formula for swap space is "more than you can possibly imagine needing"... Solaria, my venerable old Sun 3/60 (maxxed out at 24MB RAM): (solaria.root.q4-2) 11:24am ~ 80 # pstat -s 16984k allocated + 1592k reserved = 18576k used, 177656k available (solaria.root.q4-2) 11:24am ~ 81 # Showing that "8x RAM" is not unthinkable :-) > wasnt that the "old" unix way? or something. > > is there _any_ disadvantages from having a _lots_ of swap? since on "small" > machines i tend to use, depending the amount of drives, swap from 24 to > 72 megs... on each drives. on servers i tend to use 128 megs on each drive, > and i always have atleast two drives... assuming i'd have 6 drives i would > have some 700+ megs of swap, and probably "just" 128 megs ram, would i run > into troubles? (with 2gig drive it's "easy" to give out 128 megs for swap) Yes it is, and these days I would do it. > what i mean, is there a number above which i'd get into troubles? (like say > 1024 megs) > > what kinds of swap spaces one needs on a news server? You do not really want to swap on a news server. On my news servers I try to go min 4x RAM but I have a fit if I see any substantial percentage being used (I don't mind if daemons get swapped out). > on a web server? i > rather would not swap at all, but i'm not the one who pays the ram... =) Boy do I ever hear that :-) ... JG From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 10:12:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA14220 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 10:12:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from grumble.grondar.za (grumble.grondar.za [196.7.18.130]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA14212 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 10:12:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from grumble.grondar.za (mark@localhost.grondar.za [127.0.0.1]) by grumble.grondar.za (8.8.2/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA25523 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 20:11:30 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199610291811.UAA25523@grumble.grondar.za> To: current@freebsd.org Subject: Sources of entropy in the kernel? Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 20:11:29 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi I am busy updating the entropy (/dev/random) device, and I am looking for some sources of randomness in the kernel. I have a copy of Ted Ts'o's code for Linux, an I am busy hammering it into shape. In order to improve on its value, I would like to be able to stir in various bits of kernel activity. To this end, I would appreciate some input, please. (I have very little kernel knowledge, and not much experience there, so please be patient...) I am looking for dynamic tables in the kernel that could be "stirred in" when a user reads entropy, things like process tables, vm status, etc. (It is important to note that these will only get read when the user reads /dev/random, not at each "stir" of the pool of entropy). (This represents a change in my sentiments - I previously believed that these tables were attackable) SO... Which tables are available? (Preferably arrays of "stuff" that can get linearly read. What are their names, and where are they? vm_page_queues in vm_page.h? ALSO... I'd like to make the option (via an ioctl) to hook block devices for randomness. (The position of an HD's head is a nice source). Any ideas here? M -- Mark Murray 46 Harvey Rd, Claremont, Cape Town 7700, South Africa +27 21 61-3768 GMT+0200 Finger mark@grondar.za for PGP key From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 10:22:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA14811 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 10:22:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from scrooge.ee.swin.oz.au (scrooge.ee.swin.oz.au [136.186.4.20]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA14806; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 10:22:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dtc@localhost) by scrooge.ee.swin.oz.au (8.6.9/8.6.9) id FAA03537; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 05:24:40 +1100 From: Douglas Thomas Crosher Message-Id: <199610291824.FAA03537@scrooge.ee.swin.oz.au> Subject: Re: Request to add this to FAQ re: swap space To: dyson@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 05:24:39 +1100 (EST) Cc: current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610290207.VAA04150@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Oct 28, 96 09:07:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > ... The algorithm that is used by FreeBSD also requires that every > > anonymous page in a process be backed by at least an equivalent amount > > of swap space, and perhaps significantly more. ... > > > Unfortunately there are at least three wild-cards: the entire virtual > space is not shown by ps (there is a new mechanism, but would require a shell > script reading /proc/???/map), there are issues regarding the > inheritance of pages through fork, and sometimes the space is rounded > up by the swap pager. Each of those can make it so that FreeBSD uses > more space than the total virtual size. However, 2X should be too much > but allows for significant safety factor. > > If you ever have a situation where FreeBSD uses more space than approx > 1X the total size of all running processes, please get in touch with me. > At least we can get to the bottom of it. Below is a program which seems to demonstrate the effect I'm seeing. Although there is never more than 64M allocated, the swap usage due to the process seems to settle at about 80M. (The test machine had 64M ram, and 192M swap; the residual swap usage before and after the process was about 6M, growing to about 89M while running.) The only way I've found of avoiding this is to allocate the initial region a page at a time. However doing so seems to reduce performance, so I figured there was a tradeoff somewhere and happily use a little more swap. Regards Douglas Crosher -=-=-=-=- #include #include #include #define NUM_PAGES 16384 main() { mmap(0x9000000,NUM_PAGES*4096, PROT_READ|PROT_WRITE|PROT_EXEC, MAP_PRIVATE|MAP_ANON,-1,0); for (;;) { int page; for (page=0;page Message-Id: <199610291827.MAA24642@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Request to add this to FAQ re: swap space To: rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com (Rodney W. Grimes) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 12:27:22 -0600 (CST) Cc: dyson@freebsd.org, dtc@scrooge.ee.swin.oz.au, current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610290356.TAA00668@GndRsh.aac.dev.com> from "Rodney W. Grimes" at Oct 28, 96 07:56:33 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I agree that more swap is better, but at least we need to KILL the notion > > that 2 X RAM is enough (IMO, 2 X RAM is never enough)!!! > > IMOH, and IMPO, 2 x ram is typically all the swap you should need, > if you go beyond this need for swap your machine is under memoried > and page faulting heavily. There are exceptions to this (things that > manipulate massive data arrays in malloc regions (yes, I have a client > with close to 4G of swap, but he also has 256MB of memory, which is > maxed for his motherboard), wuarchive.cdrom.com running 1000's of processes, > etc... I am still waiting to hear how to get 256MB RAM on a motherboard reliably. :-) Incidentally, I meant to see if I could get you a bit irritated by pointing out that the ASUS P/E-P55T2P4D motherboard specs state... System Memory Eight 72-pin SIMM Sockets Support 8MB to 512MB Use 4/8/16/32/64MB 72-pin DRAM Module with 70ns Fast Page Mode or EDO DRAM (Require Parity Memory to Support ECC Function) (60 ns DRAM required when using 66MHz external clock) I can't get anything more than 192MB to work reliably on this board (6 x 32MB SIMM modules) - unless we go with the mega mondo $$$$ 64MB SIMM's.. and even those I have doubts about. We put the 4 that we have on a P/I-P55T2P4 board and it refused to work until we relaxed the RAM timing to 70ns. Gives me a sick feeling. I would really like to get 512MB RAM on one of these boards. :-) > My personal machines never have more than 2xRAM as swap, if I run out > of this much swap I add more memory and resize swap to 2X: > > GndRsh:sales {102} swapinfo > Device 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Type > /dev/sd0b 32768 13376 19328 41% Interleaved > GndRsh:sales {103} > SkyRsh# swapinfo > Device 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Type > /dev/sd0b 32768 2380 30324 7% Interleaved > SkyRsh# > > Both 16MB machines, both under utilizizing swap under typical loads, > both machines started out 3 or 4 years ago as 4MB machines, both > grown over time as the code has become larger (:-(), and the work > load increased (:-)). > > Ohhh... and for real server class machines if I swap, I add memory > and run swap == ram size. (From my Netware days, realize Netware > requires you to have physical ram for all NLM's, otherwise you get > the nasty out of memory error, module not loaded). I respectfully disagree... a real server class machine CERTAINLY needs to have sufficient RAM to run its appointed tasks... but on the other hand, you probably do not want FreeBSD going around killing your processes because something unexpected happened that you did not expect. This box has sufficient RAM: load averages: 1.74, 1.47, 1.36 12:16:28 65 processes: 4 running, 61 sleeping Cpu states: 63.0% user, 13.2% nice, 19.8% system, 3.1% interrupt, 0.8% idle Mem: 176M Active, 1228K Inact, 21M Wired, 53M Cache, 7021K Buf, 300K Free Swap: 614M Total, 128K Used, 614M Free PID USERNAME PRI NICE SIZE RES STATE TIME WCPU CPU COMMAND 16420 news 84 0 43M 43M RUN 0:16 42.59% 37.88% expire 13487 news 79 4 101M 99M RUN 12:10 30.82% 30.82% innd 13491 news 61 0 5788K 6004K RUN 7:24 14.34% 14.34% innfeed 16326 news 2 0 244K 620K select 0:01 1.39% 1.34% innxmit 13494 news 2 0 12M 11M select 0:07 0.65% 0.65% innfeed But I have seen times where INN blows up to 180MB and several innfeed processes blow up to 40MB or so, and all of a sudden we are swapping. Do I want it to continue running? YES.... Do I want to rely on swap as a normal part of operations? NO.... but I like being able to fall back if I need to! ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/546-7968 From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 11:11:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA16942 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:11:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from GndRsh.aac.dev.com (GndRsh.aac.dev.com [198.145.92.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA16934; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:11:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rgrimes@localhost) by GndRsh.aac.dev.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA01952; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:09:24 -0800 (PST) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <199610291909.LAA01952@GndRsh.aac.dev.com> Subject: Re: Request to add this to FAQ re: swap space In-Reply-To: <199610291827.MAA24642@brasil.moneng.mei.com> from Joe Greco at "Oct 29, 96 12:27:22 pm" To: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com (Joe Greco) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:09:24 -0800 (PST) Cc: dyson@freebsd.org, dtc@scrooge.ee.swin.oz.au, current@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > I agree that more swap is better, but at least we need to KILL the notion > > > that 2 X RAM is enough (IMO, 2 X RAM is never enough)!!! > > > > IMOH, and IMPO, 2 x ram is typically all the swap you should need, > > if you go beyond this need for swap your machine is under memoried > > and page faulting heavily. There are exceptions to this (things that > > manipulate massive data arrays in malloc regions (yes, I have a client > > with close to 4G of swap, but he also has 256MB of memory, which is > > maxed for his motherboard), wuarchive.cdrom.com running 1000's of processes, > > etc... > > I am still waiting to hear how to get 256MB RAM on a motherboard reliably. > :-) > > Incidentally, I meant to see if I could get you a bit irritated by > pointing out that the ASUS P/E-P55T2P4D motherboard specs state... > > System Memory > Eight 72-pin SIMM Sockets Support 8MB to 512MB > Use 4/8/16/32/64MB 72-pin DRAM Module with 70ns Fast > Page Mode or EDO DRAM (Require Parity Memory to > Support ECC Function) > (60 ns DRAM required when using 66MHz external clock) I know full well what it says, complain to ASUS, I did, it didn't do much good :-(. > > I can't get anything more than 192MB to work reliably on this board > (6 x 32MB SIMM modules) - unless we go with the mega mondo $$$$ 64MB > SIMM's.. and even those I have doubts about. We put the 4 that we > have on a P/I-P55T2P4 board and it refused to work until we relaxed > the RAM timing to 70ns. Gives me a sick feeling. Same situation here, infact it falls over if you try putting 8 32MB simms in it as well :-(. > I would really like to get 512MB RAM on one of these boards. So would I!!! -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com Accurate Automation, Inc. Reliable computers for FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 11:59:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA19912 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:59:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from sovcom.kiae.su (sovcom.kiae.su [193.125.152.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA19902 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:59:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by sovcom.kiae.su id AA24288 (5.65.kiae-1 ); Tue, 29 Oct 1996 22:57:54 +0300 Received: by sovcom.KIAE.su (UUMAIL/2.0); Tue, 29 Oct 96 22:57:54 +0300 Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.ru (8.8.2/8.8.2) id WAA02029; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 22:56:53 +0300 (MSK) Message-Id: <199610291956.WAA02029@nagual.ru> Subject: Re: ssh on -current In-Reply-To: <199610291110.UAA05670@bourbon.sfc.wide.ad.jp> from "Masafumi NAKANE/=?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCQ2Y6LDJtSjgbKEI=?=" at "Oct 29, 96 08:10:04 pm" To: max@wide.ad.jp (Masafumi NAKANE/=?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCQ2Y6LDJtSjgbKEI=?=) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 22:56:53 +0300 (MSK) Cc: current@FreeBSD.org, max@wide.ad.jp From: "=?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?=" (Andrey A. Chernov) Organization: self X-Class: Fast X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > After rebooting, ssh suddenly became unusable. For the first time I > executed slogin, it complained that the remote host's key had been > changed. So I removed the known_hosts file and retried. > > This time, it says: > > xmalloc: out of memory (allocating -1294967293 bytes) > AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH! I am happy - it hits not only me. :-) P.S. cd /usr/src/gnu/lib/libgmp make cleandir make obj depend all install (also it doesn't matter in this case, do it with ../libmp too) -- Andrey A. Chernov http://www.nagual.ru/~ache/ From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 13:33:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA25318 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 13:33:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from quagmire.ki.net (root@quagmire.ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA25308 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 13:33:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by quagmire.ki.net (8.8.2/8.7.5) with SMTP id QAA09163; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 16:32:48 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 16:32:46 -0500 (EST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Mark Crispin cc: J Wunsch , Ollivier Robert , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 28 Oct 1996, Mark Crispin wrote: Hi Mark... Well, *that* wasn't what I was hoping to accomplish :( I was hoping that we would make the required changes to our default setup that would prevent this from happening in the future... With that in mind, I'm not sure if there is any of the docs you could put this in, but is there anywhere that you can put a message that "if you see this error, check for these permissions on /var/mail?"? thanks... Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 13:49:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA26654 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 13:49:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from quagmire.ki.net (root@quagmire.ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA26644 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 13:49:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by quagmire.ki.net (8.8.2/8.7.5) with SMTP id QAA09440; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 16:48:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 16:48:02 -0500 (EST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Mark Crispin cc: J Wunsch , Ollivier Robert , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 28 Oct 1996, Mark Crispin wrote: > > The grim truth is, FreeBSD is a minority system, run by very few sites. It is > supported only incidentally; I don't even have a specific FreeBSD port, > although there is a BSD, BSDI, and NetBSD port. It isn't that I'm prejudiced > against FreeBSD; quite the contrary, I'm a pro-BSD bigot. But the world has > chosen SVR4, OSF/1, and Linux. > Fresh install of Linux: innuendo:ziggy:~$ ls -ld /var/spool/mail drwxrwxrwx 2 root root 1024 Oct 29 16:13 /var/spool/mail innuendo:ziggy:~$ uname -a Linux innuendo.tlug.org 2.0.22 #2 Sun Oct 13 21:20:35 EDT 1996 i586 - worse, IMHO, then 755, they don't set the sticky bit Recent Upgrade from 2.4 -> 2.5.1 of Sparc Solaris: bash# ls -ld /var/mail drwxrwxrwt 5 root mail 7168 Oct 29 16:38 /var/mail bash# uname -a SunOS clio 5.5.1 Generic sun4m sparc SUNW,SPARCstation-20 Very old version of BSDi: $ rsh mail.io.org ls -ld /var/mail drwxr-xr-x 2 root user 166912 Oct 27 18:37 /var/mail $ rsh mail.io.org uname -a BSD/OS io.org 2.0 BSDI BSD/OS 2.0 Kernel #4: Thu May 11 12:00:15 EDT 1995 scrappy@trepan.io.org:/usr/src/sys/compile/mainsys i386 IMHO, I don't think the bug is so much what each OS is setting their /var/mail directories as being, but the fact that after I installed IMAP-4, without sending Mark a query as to what was wrong, there is no indication of what the problem is, other then the lock failed. I'm curious as to what sort of DoS attacks can arise from setting my /var/mail to 1777 vs 755, and what can be done to fix it. /tmp is set to 1777, so I am assuming that the DoS attacks are from an external source, not internal. And watching all the "security" bugs that get reported about Linux, I'm shocked that something that we seem to consider a channel for a DoS hasn't posed a problem for Linux (or else its been fixed already under Linux?) Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 13:53:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA27006 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 13:53:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from austin.polstra.com (austin.polstra.com [206.213.73.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA26992 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 13:53:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from austin.polstra.com (jdp@localhost) by austin.polstra.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA07624; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 13:51:32 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199610292151.NAA07624@austin.polstra.com> To: bsdcur@shadows.aeon.net Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Request to add this to FAQ re: swap space In-reply-to: <199610291340.PAA24942@shadows.aeon.net> References: <199610291340.PAA24942@shadows.aeon.net> Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 13:51:31 -0800 From: John Polstra Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > will there be a program available for reading /proc/???/map in any > time soon? How about "cat"? ;-) Seriously, it works fine, if you just want to read or print the information. John -- John Polstra jdp@polstra.com John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA "Self-knowledge is always bad news." -- John Barth From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 14:16:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA02016 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 14:16:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (mel@tomobiki-cho.cac.washington.edu [128.95.135.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA01969 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 14:15:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (8.7.5/UW-NDC Revision: 2.28 ) id OAA14122; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 14:15:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 13:59:27 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: J Wunsch cc: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, current@FreeBSD.org, scrappy@ki.net In-Reply-To: <199610291524.QAA05144@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 29 Oct 1996 16:24:44 +0100 (MET), J Wunsch wrote: > > c) fcntl() locking is not respected by many mail programs. Virtually > > all programs respect .lock files. > Except for mail.local, the basic mail deliverer in the first place. > Since all the locking is advisory, you are basically bound to what the > mail delivery tool uses. You've got no other choice. All the .lock > files will lock the various mail readers very fine -- but nobody uses > multiple mail readers simultaneously. The .lock files won't prevent > mail.local from delivering new mail -- hence they're useless. You still don't understand. Your "mail.local" is not the only mail delivery program, nor is it typical of mail delivery programs on UNIX. Most mail delivery programs use .lock files. Since all the locking is advisory, you are basically bound to what the mail delivery tool uses. You've got no other choice. All the flock() calls will lock some mail readers very fine. The flock calls() won't prevent the mail delivery program from delivering new mail -- hence they're useless. Mail readers are safe *ONLY* if they invoke *ALL* the known locks. The mail reader has no way of knowing what the local system mail delivery program uses. The mail reader has no way of knowing that an EACCES error from trying to create a .lock file means "don't use lock files" vs. "the protection of the mail spool is wrong". Do you understand yet? > but nobody uses > multiple mail readers simultaneously. You're also wrong about this. People *do* use multiple mail readers simultaneously. Perhaps the mail software that you use doesn't permit it, but not all software has that limitation. > > flock() locking does not work over NFS at all. > Only since our lockd is not yet ready. It is supposed to work with > NFS, too. So, FreeBSD is going to make the same mistake with the lockd kludge that SVR4 did? From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 14:50:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA05109 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 14:50:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from eunet.fi (pim.eunet.fi [193.66.4.30]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA05080; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 14:50:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by eunet.fi id AA17490 (5.67a/IDA-1.5); Wed, 30 Oct 1996 00:50:13 +0200 Received: by pim.eunet.fi id AA017468 from gate.fidata.fi(193.64.102.1); Wed Oct 30 00:49:26 1996 Received: from zeta.fidata.fi (zeta.fidata.fi [193.64.102.5]) by gate.fidata.fi (8.8.2/8.8.0) with ESMTP id AAA07514; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 00:43:00 +0200 (EET) Received: (from tomppa@localhost) by zeta.fidata.fi (8.8.2/8.8.0) id AAA21957; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 00:42:59 +0200 (EET) Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 00:42:59 +0200 (EET) Resent-From: Tomi Vainio Resent-Message-Id: <199610292242.AAA21957@zeta.fidata.fi> Message-Id: <199610292242.AAA21957@zeta.fidata.fi> Resent-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Reply-To: tomppa@fidata.fi From: tomppa@fidata.fi (Tomi Vainio) To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: 2.2 and 2.1.5 coexistence Date: Sun, 27 Oct 96 03:20:43 EET DST Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I have seven FreeBSD 2.1.0R, 2.1.5R and 2.1.5S machines running on four different places. I have supped stable and current sources to scsi disk that I like to use to update these systems. It's easy to update all systems to 2.1.5S but I also like to update my own machine to current. It's also fastest machine and I like to use it as source base, test and compilation machine. Before updating my machine to current it would be nice to test that compilation works without trashing working 2.1.5S environment. When machine is running current how can I compile 2.1.5S. What should I do to achieve working environment? Tomppa -- Tomi Vainio, Fimeko-Data Oy Phone: +358 (0)9 4582421 Mail: tomppa@iki.fi tomppa@fidata.fi Telefax: +358 (0)9 4582425 From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 15:17:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA07778 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 15:17:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA07767 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 15:17:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA22180; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 16:11:21 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610292311.QAA22180@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 16:11:21 -0700 (MST) Cc: j@uriah.heep.sax.de, roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, current@FreeBSD.org, scrappy@ki.net In-Reply-To: from "Mark Crispin" at Oct 29, 96 01:59:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > You still don't understand. > > Your "mail.local" is not the only mail delivery program, nor is it typical of > mail delivery programs on UNIX. Most mail delivery programs use .lock files. Actually, I would think that if it didn't go through mail.local, then it isn't in a local user's mailbox: it's still in the delivery queue for sendmail/smail/mmdf/IMAP/etc. I think the only legal access to the local user's mailbox is via mail.local (incoming) and POP3/IMAP4/ELM/other-mail-reader (content browsing and manipulation). That basically means that the storage type is abstracted from the act of transport for most purposes, and *should* be abstracted from the act of reference. There is a MIME library, but licensing restrictions make it practically useless. 8-(. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 15:30:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA08852 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 15:30:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (v92ti@tomobiki-cho.cac.washington.edu [128.95.135.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA08832 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 15:30:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (8.7.5/UW-NDC Revision: 2.28 ) id PAA14766; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 15:28:49 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 15:17:11 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: Terry Lambert cc: j@uriah.heep.sax.de, roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, current@FreeBSD.org, scrappy@ki.net In-Reply-To: <199610292311.QAA22180@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 29 Oct 1996 16:11:21 -0700 (MST), Terry Lambert wrote: > Actually, I would think that if it didn't go through mail.local, then > it isn't in a local user's mailbox: it's still in the delivery queue for > sendmail/smail/mmdf/IMAP/etc. Let me try one more time: My car is a BMW; therefore, all cars are BMWs. My system uses a mail delivery program called mail.local that uses flock() for locking; therefore all systems use a mail delivery program called mail.local that uses flock() for locking. Do you see the fallacy yet? > I think the only legal access to the local user's mailbox is via > mail.local (incoming) and POP3/IMAP4/ELM/other-mail-reader (content > browsing and manipulation). This is presuming that mail.local is the program installed to do mail delivery. This may also be presuming that the version of mail.local that is installed is one that is written to behave in a certain way, as opposed to some other way. I can't afford to make such presumptions. > That basically means that the storage type is abstracted from the > act of transport for most purposes, and *should* be abstracted from > the act of reference. There is a MIME library, but licensing > restrictions make it practically useless. 8-(. ftp://ftp.cac.washington.edu/mail/imap.tar.Z is a free MIME library. From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 15:38:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA09788 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 15:38:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from quagmire.ki.net (root@quagmire.ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA09777 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 15:37:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by quagmire.ki.net (8.8.2/8.7.5) with SMTP id SAA11205; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 18:37:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 18:37:04 -0500 (EST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Terry Lambert cc: Mark Crispin , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: <199610292311.QAA22180@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 29 Oct 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > > You still don't understand. > > > > Your "mail.local" is not the only mail delivery program, nor is it typical of > > mail delivery programs on UNIX. Most mail delivery programs use .lock files. > > Actually, I would think that if it didn't go through mail.local, then > it isn't in a local user's mailbox: it's still in the delivery queue for > sendmail/smail/mmdf/IMAP/etc. > > I think the only legal access to the local user's mailbox is via > mail.local (incoming) and POP3/IMAP4/ELM/other-mail-reader (content > browsing and manipulation). > Wow...this was meant to be a nice, quick discussion...:( This whole discussion has degenerated (it seems) into a FreeBSD vs "the rest of the world" discussion, which is totally counter-productive. The question that *really* needs to be addressed is whether what Mark is stating is correct (right now, I assume he is) in that other Uinx variants' mail.local programs use .lock files to deal with locking. If the general consensus is that this is the case, then IMAP4's requirement for /var/mail to be 1777 is justified. If it is justified, then we should take whatever measures are required to get rid of the risk associated with having /var/mail 1777, which, as of yet, I haven't heard exactly what the risk involved is. So, can anyone comment on the use/requirement of .lock files for locking on any of the other OS's? Now, Terry mentions mail readers such as ELM, which, from the last time I configured/installed it a couple of years ago, actually gives you a choice of 3 locking methods, none of which are forced upon you...'.lock' being one of the three, and I think fcntl/flock were the other two... Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 16:51:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA14975 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 16:51:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA14970 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 16:51:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA22382; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 17:43:51 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610300043.RAA22382@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 17:43:51 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de, roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, current@FreeBSD.org, scrappy@ki.net In-Reply-To: from "Mark Crispin" at Oct 29, 96 03:17:11 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Actually, I would think that if it didn't go through mail.local, then > > it isn't in a local user's mailbox: it's still in the delivery queue for > > sendmail/smail/mmdf/IMAP/etc. > > Let me try one more time: > My car is a BMW; therefore, all cars are BMWs. > My system uses a mail delivery program called mail.local that uses > flock() for locking; therefore all systems use a mail delivery > program called mail.local that uses flock() for locking. > Do you see the fallacy yet? I don't agree that your examples are analogous. In the first, you are arguing from the general to the specific; this is a well known logical fallacy involving the distinction between necessicity and sufficiency. In the second, you are arguing that you should somehow *care* how the mail.local does locking, and that therefore the distinction between flock() locking vs. some other locking methodology is also somehow important. Why do you care how the specific locking is done, so long as it is done? > > I think the only legal access to the local user's mailbox is via > > mail.local (incoming) and POP3/IMAP4/ELM/other-mail-reader (content > > browsing and manipulation). > > This is presuming that mail.local is the program installed to do mail > delivery. This may also be presuming that the version of mail.local that is > installed is one that is written to behave in a certain way, as opposed to > some other way. > > I can't afford to make such presumptions. mail.local for any system will be written in such a way as to succesfully interact via some method with mail user agents for the system for which it is the mail.local. Thus this is only an issue if you are: 1) Writing mail.local 2) Writing a mail user agent, and not using the same message store interface code as was used to implement mail.local In the first case, you must conform to the defined interface for the system. In the second case, you must conform to the schma used by mail.local. >From your desription of c-client's and in "docs/locking", it seems pretty clear that what you really need is another "driver" type that is that same as the flock() driver type, but which uses fcntl(). It's not unreasonable for an application to expect fcntl() to work correctly locally, and over NFS (FreeBSD doesn't have the NFS client side, has the unintegrated patches for the NFS server side, and does work locally. This is *without* the "bug" you note in the exclusive locking of read-only files. I think it's probably reasonable to expect the mail.local (sendmail on BSD) to determine the local locaking state machine, and for the driver in IMAP4 to implement the same machine. It's not clear why sendmail and smail haven't been modified to use the c-client library to make this transparent. 8-(. > > That basically means that the storage type is abstracted from the > > act of transport for most purposes, and *should* be abstracted from > > the act of reference. There is a MIME library, but licensing > > restrictions make it practically useless. 8-(. > > ftp://ftp.cac.washington.edu/mail/imap.tar.Z is a free MIME library. The c-client code is the code you refer to, right? This is a bit more than a database interface to a MIME-capable message store (basically, most UNIX mail programs fit into your "otherwise not generally useful" category: all they would want is per message access to 822 compliant messages). So in conclusion: 1) There should be an fcntl() awar "driver" to go with the flock() aware "driver", since this is the best approach to locaking on FreeBSD (and NetBSD and OpenBSD, etc.). 2) There needs to be a subset interface for non-MIME-aware mail transport agents (which only care about the encapsulated message, not how to break out contents other than addressing tags, which are seperate anyway, by definition). 3) Sendmail (out "mail.local") should use the subset interface. A tall order, unfortunately. 8-(. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 16:57:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA15269 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 16:57:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA15258 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 16:57:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA17436 for current@freebsd.org; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:27:15 +1030 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199610300057.LAA17436@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: -current-current trap (argh) To: current@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:27:14 +1030 (CST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On a kernel less than 24 hours old : kernel: type 12 trap, code=0 unsleep + 0x28 movl %eax,0x4(%edx) setrunnable + 0x56 psignal + 0x202 realitexpire + + 0x11 softclock + 0x64 doreti_swi + 0xf kgdb has this to say : [...ddb spaghetti elided...] #18 0xf01b4731 in calltrap () #19 0xf0116672 in setrunnable (p=0xf1b80200) at ../../kern/kern_synch.c:616 #20 0xf01153fe in psignal (p=0xf1b80200, signum=14) at ../../kern/kern_sig.c:922 #21 0xf0117f11 in realitexpire (arg=0xf1b80200) at ../../kern/kern_time.c:341 #22 0xf010c1f0 in softclock () at ../../kern/kern_clock.c:668 This machine has been behaving unreliably for the last day or so, so I'm not ruling out hardware problems, but thought that I should at least mention this. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 16:59:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA15458 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 16:59:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA15447 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 16:59:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA22416; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 17:53:49 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610300053.RAA22416@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: scrappy@ki.net (Marc G. Fournier) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 17:53:49 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Marc G. Fournier" at Oct 29, 96 06:37:04 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > The question that *really* needs to be addressed is whether > what Mark is stating is correct (right now, I assume he is) in that > other Uinx variants' mail.local programs use .lock files to deal with > locking. If the general consensus is that this is the case, then IMAP4's > requirement for /var/mail to be 1777 is justified. Actually, this is not a requirement. It's just the default for the code (read the "docs/locking" document for the IMAP4 distribution. Mark wrote the document: it's actually a compilation default that shouldn't be default for FreeBSD. The problem seems to be that the "driver" support is for .lock and flock() (not fcntl()) based locking only. Seems someone in the FreeBSD camp should write an fcntl() aware "driver" for IMAP4. 8-(. > If it is justified, then we should take whatever measures are > required to get rid of the risk associated with having /var/mail 1777, > which, as of yet, I haven't heard exactly what the risk involved is. The risk is that incoming data will get stomped by the reader. Mark discusses this at length in his "Jeremiad" against System V. 8-). Contrary to my previous posting, it looks like he is, indeed, implementing a user agent. It's unclear whether it's also a delivery agent (it seems to be, for a client-initiated modification of a mailbox item!), and if so, why it doesn't go through mail.local -- like it's "supposed to". Ideally, he'd cut down the interface to let sendmail reasonably consume it to stor RFC 822 messages which might have message bodies which are MIME data (sendmail doesn't care, and the interfaces are too complex to presume encapsulation, it seems). > Now, Terry mentions mail readers such as ELM, which, from the > last time I configured/installed it a couple of years ago, actually > gives you a choice of 3 locking methods, none of which are forced > upon you...'.lock' being one of the three, and I think fcntl/flock were > the other two... They are. I'm biased, since I use "elm" with "MetaMail" to make it a good MIME citizen, despite elm being on S. Kramer's "hated client list" (ftp://ftp.cac.washington.edu/mail/imap.software). Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 17:15:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA17099 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 17:15:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA17094 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 17:15:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA01653; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 20:14:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 20:14:06 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: "Marc G. Fournier" cc: Terry Lambert , Mark Crispin , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 29 Oct 1996, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > The question that *really* needs to be addressed is whether > what Mark is stating is correct (right now, I assume he is) in that > other Uinx variants' mail.local programs use .lock files to deal with > locking. Here is a quick survey of the local delivery agents invoked by sendmail on some local machines. The following use .lock files: OSF1 copper V3.2 148 alpha HP-UX ophelia B.10.01 A 9000/819 5611371 two-user license IRIX kalondin 5.3 02091401 IP22 mips ULTRIX nickel 4.4 0 RISC I wasn't able to confirm the local delivery agent for: SunOS cheyenne 5.5.1 Generic_103640-01 sun4u sparc SUNW,Ultra-1 because sendmail.cf was only readable by root, but judging from the mail(1) man page, I suspect it uses .lock files as well. HP-UX, Solaris, ULTRIX, and IRIX are using 1777 for mail directories while OSF1 is using 777. -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 17:50:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA18858 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 17:50:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA18841 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 17:50:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.2/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id BAA09530; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 01:49:57 GMT Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 10:49:57 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Mark Crispin cc: current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 29 Oct 1996, Mark Crispin wrote: > So, FreeBSD is going to make the same mistake with the lockd kludge that SVR4 > did? I think we will learn from the kludge that SVR4 did. The UoG NFS code has some interesting experimental code that manages state using leases. I think we can lease locking state in the same way. The assumptions you can make with this method greatly simplifies things and is a cool way of adding state to systems designed to be stateless. Regards, Mike Hancock From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 18:01:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA19652 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 18:01:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA19640 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 18:01:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id MAA18021 for current@freebsd.org; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 12:31:23 +1030 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199610300201.MAA18021@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: 2.1.5r -> current upgrade To: current@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 12:31:23 +1030 (CST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk For anyone that may be interested; the upgrade process from 2.1.5-RELEASE to today's -current is : make world This is for 2.1.5 installed with 'bin' and 'dict' (for eign, which may not be required), and with NOSECURE, NOGAMES, NOPROFILE set. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 18:01:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA19692 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 18:01:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA19674 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 18:01:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id TAA25168; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 19:58:57 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610300158.TAA25168@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 19:58:56 -0600 (CST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de, roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, current@FreeBSD.org, scrappy@ki.net In-Reply-To: from "Mark Crispin" at Oct 29, 96 03:17:11 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mr. Crispin, > On Tue, 29 Oct 1996 16:11:21 -0700 (MST), Terry Lambert wrote: > > Actually, I would think that if it didn't go through mail.local, then > > it isn't in a local user's mailbox: it's still in the delivery queue for > > sendmail/smail/mmdf/IMAP/etc. > > Let me try one more time: > My car is a BMW; therefore, all cars are BMWs. > My system uses a mail delivery program called mail.local that uses > flock() for locking; therefore all systems use a mail delivery > program called mail.local that uses flock() for locking. > Do you see the fallacy yet? This is bull. Your premise is that we are a car. SunOS is a car. DU is a car. Etc. Since it is a car, you must be able to drive it. I agree. The fallacy is that you believe that just because they are all cars, they must be driven the same way. SunOS is stick shift. FreeBSD is auto transmission. If you slam the clutch on a FreeBSD car, you end up hitting the brake instead, because the brake is a wide pedal. Now, you are suggesting that we can "fix" this problem by making the brake pedal smaller and adding a dummy clutch pedal. I don't know about you, but I have driven hundreds of cars and I generally find out that it is easier, less intrusive, and more appreciated by the owner of the car if I simply adjust my driving habits to the car in question. > > I think the only legal access to the local user's mailbox is via > > mail.local (incoming) and POP3/IMAP4/ELM/other-mail-reader (content > > browsing and manipulation). > > This is presuming that mail.local is the program installed to do mail > delivery. This may also be presuming that the version of mail.local that is > installed is one that is written to behave in a certain way, as opposed to > some other way. Since this is the native local mail delivery agent, it is reasonable to assume this. You are already making equal and opposite assumptions that by using both file locking and .lock locking that you will be "universally compatible". You have already made an assumption about your environment: one that could be wrong. It is generally wiser to make an educated guess about your environment based on knowledge of the standard local mail delivery agent. It is further reasonable to assume that anyone who is knowledgeable enough about UNIX mail systems to choose an architecturally different local mail delivery agent will make sure that any other mail programs in use also obey the different local mail paradigm. It would probably be sufficient for your program to check the permissions on /var/mail and act accordingly: if somebody installs a delivery agent that requires .lock style mailbox locking, it will fail if the directory modes are incorrect. That means that they will probably notice it long before they run into any problems with your program. It is really rather crummy to promote use of an old, cruddy locking mechanism (with mode 1777, and the security implications of that) when a newer, more modern, and secure method is available. Why is it impossible to make it an option? Elm did. > I can't afford to make such presumptions. You already have. Silly argument. > > That basically means that the storage type is abstracted from the > > act of transport for most purposes, and *should* be abstracted from > > the act of reference. There is a MIME library, but licensing > > restrictions make it practically useless. 8-(. ... JG From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 18:04:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA20060 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 18:04:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA20045 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 18:04:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.asiaconnect.com.my (ns.asiaconnect.com.my [202.190.60.10]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id SAA27454 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 18:04:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from slacker-ti.asiaconnect.com.my ([202.190.60.100]) by ns.asiaconnect.com.my (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA26567 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 01:59:05 GMT Message-ID: <3276B700.3E06@asiaconnect.com.my> Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 10:01:36 +0800 From: Kevin Lew Reply-To: kev@asiaconnect.com.my Organization: System Support, THB Asia Connect Sdn Bhd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: current@FreeBSD.org Subject: (no subject) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk unsubscribe From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 18:27:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA21295 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 18:27:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from pat.idt.unit.no (pat.idt.unit.no [129.241.103.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA21278 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 18:27:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from idt.unit.no (hyll.idt.unit.no [129.241.200.3]) by pat.idt.unit.no (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA11804; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 03:27:02 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199610300227.DAA11804@pat.idt.unit.no> To: jdp@polstra.com Cc: bsdcur@shadows.aeon.net, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Request to add this to FAQ re: swap space In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 29 Oct 1996 13:51:31 -0800" References: <199610292151.NAA07624@austin.polstra.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.06 on Emacs 19.31.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 03:27:00 +0100 From: Tor Egge Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > will there be a program available for reading /proc/???/map in any > > time soon? > > How about "cat"? ;-) > > Seriously, it works fine, if you just want to read or print the > information. Sometimes you only get some of the information :-( ikke:/tmp$ cat /proc/6430/map | wc 292 1757 16349 ikke:/tmp$ ps xlww6430 UID PID PPID CPU PRI NI VSZ RSS WCHAN STAT TT TIME COMMAND 26850 6430 6409 0 2 0 1464 285380 select S ?? 63:44.19 search -u 0 -M 70 -u 1 -c - Tor Egge From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 18:58:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA22676 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 18:58:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from dyson.iquest.net ([198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA22668 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 18:58:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.2/8.6.9) id VAA12039; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 21:57:41 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199610300257.VAA12039@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Request to add this to FAQ re: swap space To: Tor.Egge@idt.ntnu.no (Tor Egge) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 21:57:40 -0500 (EST) Cc: jdp@polstra.com, bsdcur@shadows.aeon.net, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610300227.DAA11804@pat.idt.unit.no> from "Tor Egge" at Oct 30, 96 03:27:00 am Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > will there be a program available for reading /proc/???/map in any > > > time soon? > > > > How about "cat"? ;-) > > > > Seriously, it works fine, if you just want to read or print the > > information. > > Sometimes you only get some of the information :-( > Yep, consider that a bug report. The data is truncated to be 16K in size. Soon, I'll make it dynamic. John From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 19:02:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA22972 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 19:02:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (death@tomobiki-cho.cac.washington.edu [128.95.135.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA22967 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 19:02:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (8.7.5/UW-NDC Revision: 2.28 ) id SAA15103; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 18:59:55 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 18:14:11 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: Joe Greco cc: terry@lambert.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de, roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, current@FreeBSD.org, scrappy@ki.net In-Reply-To: <199610300158.TAA25168@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 29 Oct 1996 19:58:56 -0600 (CST), Joe Greco wrote: > This is bull. I give up. I told you already that it already does the type of locks that your mail.local expects. It also does the type of locks that other software expects, to make it run robustly on a variety of different systems, most of which are run by folks who haven't a clue what fcntl means. Has it ever dawned on any of you that a user on a FreeBSD system just might be getting the mail spool via NFS from a different flavor of UNIX, one that uses the .lock files instead? Probably not, but it's my job to think about such things and make sure that they work, because golly gee, people do such things. The only possible problem in all of this is that you will get get a warning message if the attempt to create the lock file fails; and that if (and only if) the mail spool is delivered to using flock/fcntl, the warning can be disregarded and probably should not be generated. I told you how to build the code so you don't get the warning message . This should be quite enough for any hacker to say "thank you" and take it from there. If the FreeBSD community doesn't want to play ball with the rest of the UNIX world, that is its business. I understand now why Linux has taken off and FreeBSD has not. From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 19:07:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA23213 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 19:07:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from dyson.iquest.net ([198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA23206; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 19:07:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.2/8.6.9) id WAA12073; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 22:07:06 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199610300307.WAA12073@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Request to add this to FAQ re: swap space To: dyson@FreeBSD.org Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 22:07:06 -0500 (EST) Cc: Tor.Egge@idt.ntnu.no, jdp@polstra.com, bsdcur@shadows.aeon.net, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610300257.VAA12039@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Oct 29, 96 09:57:40 pm Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > will there be a program available for reading /proc/???/map in any > > > > time soon? > > > > > > How about "cat"? ;-) > > > > > > Seriously, it works fine, if you just want to read or print the > > > information. > > > > Sometimes you only get some of the information :-( > > > Yep, consider that a bug report. The data is truncated to be 16K in > size. Soon, I'll make it dynamic. > PS. you'll still need a special program to read the most complex maps. John From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 20:59:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA28449 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 20:59:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from quagmire.ki.net (root@quagmire.ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA28437 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 20:59:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by quagmire.ki.net (8.8.2/8.7.5) with SMTP id XAA16501; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 23:56:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 23:56:38 -0500 (EST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Mark Crispin cc: Joe Greco , terry@lambert.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de, roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 29 Oct 1996, Mark Crispin wrote: > If the FreeBSD community doesn't want to play ball with the rest of the UNIX > world, that is its business. I understand now why Linux has taken off and > FreeBSD has not. > I'm glad we are all adults here and don't have to get down to the level of OS bashing that some of the other OS advocates seem soooo fond of :( Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 20:59:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA28505 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 20:59:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (troutmask.apl.washington.edu [128.95.76.54]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA28493 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 20:59:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from sgk@localhost) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) id VAA17363; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 21:00:21 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven G. Kargl" Message-Id: <199610300500.VAA17363@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> Subject: Re: 2.1.5r -> current upgrade In-Reply-To: <199610300201.MAA18021@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from Michael Smith at "Oct 30, 96 12:31:23 pm" To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 21:00:21 -0800 (PST) Cc: current@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Michael Smith: > > For anyone that may be interested; the upgrade process from 2.1.5-RELEASE to > today's -current is : > > make world > > This is for 2.1.5 installed with 'bin' and 'dict' (for eign, which may not > be required), and with NOSECURE, NOGAMES, NOPROFILE set. > Ah, don't you need to do some merging of files in /etc? -- Steve From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 21:23:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA29904 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 21:23:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA29898 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 21:23:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id PAA19174; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:52:51 +1030 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199610300522.PAA19174@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: 2.1.5r -> current upgrade To: sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu (Steven G. Kargl) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:52:50 +1030 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610300500.VAA17363@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> from "Steven G. Kargl" at Oct 29, 96 09:00:21 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Steven G. Kargl stands accused of saying: > >> For anyone that may be interested; the upgrade process from 2.1.5-RELEASE to >> today's -current is : ... > Ah, don't you need to do some merging of files in /etc? Only if you feel like it 8) Seriously, yes, you'll want to do that in most cases, but the point I was making was that all these whines about "upgrading to -current is so hard" are people making their own trouble, not anything wrong with the tree per se. > Steve -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 22:01:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA03874 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 22:01:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from groa.uct.ac.za (groa.uct.ac.za [137.158.128.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA03866 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 22:01:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by groa.uct.ac.za via sendmail with stdio id for current@freebsd.org; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 07:57:56 +0200 (SAT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #2 built 1996-Oct-2) Message-Id: From: rv@groa.uct.ac.za (Russell Vincent) Subject: Re: Request to add this to FAQ re: swap space To: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com (Joe Greco) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 07:57:55 +0200 (SAT) Cc: current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610291827.MAA24642@brasil.moneng.mei.com> from "Joe Greco" at Oct 29, 96 12:27:22 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joe Greco wrote (about the ASUS P/E-P55T2P4D): > I can't get anything more than 192MB to work reliably on this board > (6 x 32MB SIMM modules) - unless we go with the mega mondo $$$$ 64MB > SIMM's.. and even those I have doubts about. We put the 4 that we > have on a P/I-P55T2P4 board and it refused to work until we relaxed > the RAM timing to 70ns. Gives me a sick feeling. I am running 5 P55T2P4D boards with 256MB (4x64MB) and they are running fine (all RAM is being used by the OS). The memory is '1st grade RAM' (whatever that may be, although definately more expensive) and was specicially imported for these machines. -Russell From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 23:22:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA10795 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 23:22:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA10779 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 23:22:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id IAA24513; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 08:21:48 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id IAA23557; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 08:21:48 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id IAA09575; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 08:05:41 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610300705.IAA09575@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: 2.1.5r -> current upgrade To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD-current users) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 08:05:40 +0100 (MET) Cc: sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu (Steven G. Kargl) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199610300500.VAA17363@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> from "Steven G. Kargl" at "Oct 29, 96 09:00:21 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Steven G. Kargl wrote: > Ah, don't you need to do some merging of files in /etc? In case you wonder: uriah.heep.sax.de still hasn't even got an /etc/sysconfig. Seriously. Everything is hand-whacked in rc, rc.local and netstart. :-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-current Tue Oct 29 23:46:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA12668 for current-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 23:46:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from bourbon.sfc.wide.ad.jp (root@bourbon.sfc.wide.ad.jp [133.4.30.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA12655 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 23:46:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from bourbon (max@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bourbon.sfc.wide.ad.jp (8.8.2/3.4W409/27/96) with ESMTP id QAA13023; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:45:41 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199610300745.QAA13023@bourbon.sfc.wide.ad.jp> To: ache@nagual.ru Cc: max@wide.ad.jp, current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: ssh on -current From: Masafumi NAKANE/=?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCQ2Y6LDJtSjgbKEI=?= In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 29 Oct 1996 22:56:53 +0300 (MSK)" References: <199610291956.WAA02029@nagual.ru> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.06 on Emacs 19.28.1, Mule 2.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:45:41 +0900 Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Andrey> AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH! I am happy - it hits not only me. :-) Oh, ok, it was you hit by this. :-) Andrey> P.S. Andrey> cd /usr/src/gnu/lib/libgmp Andrey> make cleandir Andrey> make obj depend all install Great. Ssh started working again. Thanks a lot. ax From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 00:44:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA17417 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 00:44:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from quagmire.ki.net (root@quagmire.ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA17383 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 00:43:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from spirit.ki.net (root@spirit.ki.net [205.150.102.51]) by quagmire.ki.net (8.8.2/8.7.5) with ESMTP id DAA22311 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 03:43:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by spirit.ki.net (8.8.2/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA23944 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 03:43:51 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: spirit.ki.net: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 03:43:45 -0500 (EST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: current@freebsd.org Subject: Comment on -current... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hiya... This might be pre-mature (my luck *sigh*), but looks like the -current source tree dated approx. Oct 26th finally stabilized my machines: quagmire up 3+02:14, 1 user, load 1.44, 0.60, 0.39 spirit up 2+23:17, 1 user, load 0.38, 0.35, 0.45 For those that don't know, until this kernel (both machines are running the same kernel), my machines were panic'ng after approx. 24hrs uptime :( Kudos to all, especially those working in the VM department :) Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 00:58:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA18453 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 00:58:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from quagmire.ki.net (root@quagmire.ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA18439 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 00:58:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from spirit.ki.net (root@spirit.ki.net [205.150.102.51]) by quagmire.ki.net (8.8.2/8.7.5) with ESMTP id DAA22670; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 03:57:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by spirit.ki.net (8.8.2/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA27052; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 03:57:53 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: spirit.ki.net: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 03:57:45 -0500 (EST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Ollivier Robert cc: current@freebsd.org, Mark Crispin Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: <199610290635.HAA05491@keltia.freenix.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Can anyone verify what the other *BSD variants do? BSDi? NetBSD? OpenBSD? Mark argued that FreeBSD is technically "unsupported" ... but that BSDi/NetBSD were ... if that's the case, then are they setting their /var/mail to 1777? Or do their admins go through the same procedures as I just did to get IMAP4 to quiet down? If they *do* set theirs to 1777...the DoS risk that Olliver mentioned, is it not a risk to them? And, if not, why is there mail subsystem better...? Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 01:24:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA20670 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 01:24:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA20646 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 01:24:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (richardc@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA01654 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 01:25:27 -0800 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 01:25:22 -0800 (PST) From: Veggy Vinny To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: current libs Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greetings everyone, It seems a make world of current never overwrites the following files unless I delete them from /usr/lib first: /usr/lib/c++rt0.o /usr/lib/crt0.o /usr/lib/gcrt0.o /usr/lib/scrt0.o /usr/lib/sgcrt0.o Anyone have any ideas about this one? Vince GaiaNet Corporation - Unix Networking Operations - GUS Mailing Lists Admin From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 02:01:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA26024 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 02:01:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA26001 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 02:01:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id UAA20799; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 20:31:24 +1030 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199610301001.UAA20799@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: current libs To: richardc@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (Veggy Vinny) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 20:31:24 +1030 (CST) Cc: current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Veggy Vinny" at Oct 30, 96 01:25:22 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Veggy Vinny stands accused of saying: > > Greetings everyone, > > It seems a make world of current never overwrites the following > files unless I delete them from /usr/lib first: > > /usr/lib/c++rt0.o > /usr/lib/crt0.o > /usr/lib/gcrt0.o > /usr/lib/scrt0.o > /usr/lib/sgcrt0.o > > Anyone have any ideas about this one? You're legendary for complaining about things that aren't broken; this is another one 8) I just checked all the systems around here that I've worlded, and they all have updated crt*'s. Dunno what you've busted this time though, sorry. > Vince -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 02:06:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA26681 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 02:06:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA26667 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 02:06:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (richardc@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA02994; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 02:06:50 -0800 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 02:06:48 -0800 (PST) From: Veggy Vinny To: Michael Smith cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: current libs In-Reply-To: <199610301001.UAA20799@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 30 Oct 1996, Michael Smith wrote: > Veggy Vinny stands accused of saying: > > > > It seems a make world of current never overwrites the following > > files unless I delete them from /usr/lib first: > > > > /usr/lib/c++rt0.o > > /usr/lib/crt0.o > > /usr/lib/gcrt0.o > > /usr/lib/scrt0.o > > /usr/lib/sgcrt0.o > > > > Anyone have any ideas about this one? > > You're legendary for complaining about things that aren't broken; this > is another one 8) Oh well =) > I just checked all the systems around here that I've worlded, and they > all have updated crt*'s. Dunno what you've busted this time though, sorry. Are you sure it's updated because I know on any system I do a make world on or even just go to /usr/src/lib/csu/i386 and do make depend ; make clean ; make ; make install, it doesn't seem to write over the file as the old timestamp is still there unless I removed it first. And this has happened on all the machines even a year ago. Vince GaiaNet Corporation - Unix Networking Operations - GUS Mailing Lists Admin From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 02:14:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA27836 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 02:14:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA27822 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 02:14:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id UAA20850; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 20:44:00 +1030 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199610301014.UAA20850@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: current libs To: richardc@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (Veggy Vinny) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 20:43:59 +1030 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Veggy Vinny" at Oct 30, 96 02:06:48 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Veggy Vinny stands accused of saying: > > > I just checked all the systems around here that I've worlded, and they > > all have updated crt*'s. Dunno what you've busted this time though, sorry. > > Are you sure it's updated because I know on any system I do a make > world on or even just go to /usr/src/lib/csu/i386 and do make depend ; > make clean ; make ; make install, it doesn't seem to write over the file > as the old timestamp is still there unless I removed it first. And this > has happened on all the machines even a year ago. I said "I just checked", and that's what I meant: cain:~>rsh spore "ls -l /usr/lib/*crt* /usr/lib/libc.a" -r--r--r-- 1 bin bin 2061 Oct 27 14:47 /usr/lib/crt0.o -r--r--r-- 1 bin bin 2199 Oct 27 14:47 /usr/lib/gcrt0.o -r--r--r-- 1 bin bin 542214 Oct 27 22:39 /usr/lib/libc.a -r--r--r-- 1 bin bin 338 Oct 27 14:47 /usr/lib/scrt0.o -r--r--r-- 1 bin bin 480 Oct 27 14:47 /usr/lib/sgcrt0.o cain:~>rsh obtuse "ls -l /usr/lib/*crt* /usr/lib/libc.a" -r--r--r-- 1 bin bin 2061 Oct 29 17:27 /usr/lib/crt0.o -r--r--r-- 1 bin bin 2199 Oct 29 17:27 /usr/lib/gcrt0.o -r--r--r-- 1 bin bin 542250 Oct 29 20:39 /usr/lib/libc.a -r--r--r-- 1 bin bin 338 Oct 29 17:27 /usr/lib/scrt0.o -r--r--r-- 1 bin bin 480 Oct 29 17:27 /usr/lib/sgcrt0.o ... &c. &c. > Vince -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 02:24:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA29175 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 02:24:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA29156 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 02:24:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (richardc@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA03683; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 02:25:29 -0800 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 02:25:14 -0800 (PST) From: Veggy Vinny To: Michael Smith cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: current libs In-Reply-To: <199610301014.UAA20850@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 30 Oct 1996, Michael Smith wrote: > Veggy Vinny stands accused of saying: > > I said "I just checked", and that's what I meant: Interesting, I don't know what's the problem since all the other files in /usr/lib get updated except the *crt*.o files and the ones in /usr/lib don't even have schg flag to prevent it from being overwritten... Vince GaiaNet Corporation - Unix Networking Operations - GUS Mailing Lists Admin From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 05:15:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA16650 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 05:15:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA16640 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 05:15:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.2/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id NAA15098; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 13:14:33 GMT Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 22:14:33 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: "Marc G. Fournier" cc: Ollivier Robert , current@freebsd.org, Mark Crispin Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 30 Oct 1996, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > > Can anyone verify what the other *BSD variants do? BSDi? > NetBSD? OpenBSD? > With BSD/OS 2.0.1 they were doing the mail gid thing with 775. I'm not sure if they still do that now. Regards, Mike Hancock From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 05:17:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA16952 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 05:17:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from lundin.abq.nm.us (lundin.abq.nm.us [198.59.115.228]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA16939 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 05:17:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (from aflundi@localhost) by lundin.abq.nm.us (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA13054; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 06:17:11 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 06:17:11 -0700 (MST) From: Alan Lundin Message-Id: <199610301317.GAA13054@lundin.abq.nm.us> In-Reply-To: Michael Smith "Re: 2.1.5r -> current upgrade" (Oct 30, 3:52pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: Michael Smith Subject: Re: 2.1.5r -> current upgrade Cc: current@freebsd.org Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Oct 30, 3:52pm, Michael Smith wrote: > Subject: Re: 2.1.5r -> current upgrade > > Seriously, yes, you'll want to do that in most cases, but the point I was > making was that all these whines about "upgrading to -current is so hard" > are people making their own trouble, not anything wrong with the tree > per se. Just to lend support to what Michael is saying, I just decided to do exactly that a couple of days ago, and was astonished at how easy it was. That's not to say there aren't snags, like: * being unsure about current, I wanted to have current on one disk, and 2.1.5R on another. It took me a while to discover that only SCSI targets 0 and 1 where bootable from the default BSD boot -- at least with my hardware. * the CVS tree is big, and doing things like "ctm /ctmfiles*" and "cvs co world" take a long time (at least they do on my 486). * "make world" takes a really, really long time! Especially when it stops a few hours into the make complaining that -Tdownps (on a groff command) isn't a supported type. Apparently, something in the "make world" process used the PRINTER env var as a groff output type! In any case, with disk space and time, -current is approachable, just like Michael says. --alan From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 06:36:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA00214 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 06:36:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA00197 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 06:36:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id GAA08374; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 06:35:48 -0800 (PST) To: "Marc G. Fournier" cc: Ollivier Robert , current@freebsd.org, Mark Crispin Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 30 Oct 1996 03:57:45 EST." Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 06:35:48 -0800 Message-ID: <8372.846686148@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Mark argued that FreeBSD is technically "unsupported" ... but > that BSDi/NetBSD were ... if that's the case, then are they setting > their /var/mail to 1777? Or do their admins go through the same BSD/OS 2.1: jkh@spatter-> ls -ld /var/mail/ drwxrwxr-x 2 root mail 512 Sep 6 02:03 /var/mail/ From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 06:54:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA04167 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 06:54:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA04157 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 06:54:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id IAA25819; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 08:51:27 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610301451.IAA25819@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 08:51:27 -0600 (CST) Cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, terry@lambert.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de, roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, current@FreeBSD.org, scrappy@ki.net In-Reply-To: from "Mark Crispin" at Oct 29, 96 06:14:11 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > On Tue, 29 Oct 1996 19:58:56 -0600 (CST), Joe Greco wrote: > > This is bull. > > I give up. > > I told you already that it already does the type of locks that your mail.local > expects. It also does the type of locks that other software expects, to make > it run robustly on a variety of different systems, most of which are run by > folks who haven't a clue what fcntl means. > > Has it ever dawned on any of you that a user on a FreeBSD system just might be > getting the mail spool via NFS from a different flavor of UNIX, one that uses > the .lock files instead? Probably not, but it's my job to think about such > things and make sure that they work, because golly gee, people do such things. Has it ever dawned on you that if you were to make this sort of policy decision bubble up to the surface via a Configure-like mechanism, in the manner that Elm does, that this would completely solve your problem? It seems to have worked very well over many years for them, after all. This is, in my opinion, the best solution to the problem. You can select a set of OS-compatible defaults. More knowledgeable folks who choose to replace vendor's crappy mail software with modern, secure alternatives can change the defaults. Preferably without going on a 'search and destroy' through the source code because you are inflexible and unwilling to admit that the whole world does not need to have 1777 as their mail directory permissions. > The only possible problem in all of this is that you will get get a warning > message if the attempt to create the lock file fails; and that if (and only > if) the mail spool is delivered to using flock/fcntl, the warning can be > disregarded and probably should not be generated. > > I told you how to build the code so you don't get the warning message . This > should be quite enough for any hacker to say "thank you" and take it from > there. If your code complains, by default, on a FreeBSD system, then your code is not FreeBSD-compatible. I am looking at /etc/mtree/4.4BSD.var under NetBSD-current, and I see that it specifies: # ./mail /set type=file gname=guest uname=root mode=0600 mail type=dir uname=root gname=wheel mode=0755 # ./mail So you are not NetBSD-compatible either, it seems. Relaxing the system security to make it "compatible" with your code is a cheesy solution: I call it "intentionally compromising system security". > If the FreeBSD community doesn't want to play ball with the rest of the UNIX > world, that is its business. I understand now why Linux has taken off and > FreeBSD has not. Cheap shot, and not true, from everything that I can tell. People who need reliability and security seem to use FreeBSD. Other, less educated folks, or folks who do not care about these issues, seem to use Linux. They are the same people who buy consumer grade ("Packard Bell") PC's to be their hardware platform. Whoopie. ... JG From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 06:55:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA04426 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 06:55:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from GndRsh.aac.dev.com (GndRsh.aac.dev.com [198.145.92.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA04409 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 06:55:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rgrimes@localhost) by GndRsh.aac.dev.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA02985; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 06:49:13 -0800 (PST) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <199610301449.GAA02985@GndRsh.aac.dev.com> Subject: Re: Request to add this to FAQ re: swap space In-Reply-To: from Russell Vincent at "Oct 30, 96 07:57:55 am" To: rv@groa.uct.ac.za (Russell Vincent) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 06:49:12 -0800 (PST) Cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, current@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Joe Greco wrote (about the ASUS P/E-P55T2P4D): > > I can't get anything more than 192MB to work reliably on this board > > (6 x 32MB SIMM modules) - unless we go with the mega mondo $$$$ 64MB > > SIMM's.. and even those I have doubts about. We put the 4 that we > > have on a P/I-P55T2P4 board and it refused to work until we relaxed > > the RAM timing to 70ns. Gives me a sick feeling. > > I am running 5 P55T2P4D boards with 256MB (4x64MB) and they > are running fine (all RAM is being used by the OS). The memory > is '1st grade RAM' (whatever that may be, although definately more > expensive) and was specicially imported for these machines. But youv'e only half loaded the board, it has 8 simm sockets, try even adding 2 more simms and watch what happens to your stability.... The crux is, we went to the T2P4D for the 8 simm sockets, and I have yet to see one of these boards run correctly with even 8 single sided 12 chip simm modules in it! ANYONE out there have one of these boards with 8 simms in it working? > -Russell -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com Accurate Automation, Inc. Reliable computers for FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 07:11:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA07951 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 07:11:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA07930 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 07:11:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id JAA25867; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 09:09:56 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610301509.JAA25867@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Request to add this to FAQ re: swap space To: rgrimes@GndRsh.aac.dev.com (Rodney W. Grimes) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 09:09:55 -0600 (CST) Cc: rv@groa.uct.ac.za, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610301449.GAA02985@GndRsh.aac.dev.com> from "Rodney W. Grimes" at Oct 30, 96 06:49:12 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Joe Greco wrote (about the ASUS P/E-P55T2P4D): > > > I can't get anything more than 192MB to work reliably on this board > > > (6 x 32MB SIMM modules) - unless we go with the mega mondo $$$$ 64MB > > > SIMM's.. and even those I have doubts about. We put the 4 that we > > > have on a P/I-P55T2P4 board and it refused to work until we relaxed > > > the RAM timing to 70ns. Gives me a sick feeling. > > > > I am running 5 P55T2P4D boards with 256MB (4x64MB) and they > > are running fine (all RAM is being used by the OS). The memory > > is '1st grade RAM' (whatever that may be, although definately more > > expensive) and was specicially imported for these machines. > > But youv'e only half loaded the board, it has 8 simm sockets, try > even adding 2 more simms and watch what happens to your stability.... > > The crux is, we went to the T2P4D for the 8 simm sockets, and I have > yet to see one of these boards run correctly with even 8 single sided > 12 chip simm modules in it! > > ANYONE out there have one of these boards with 8 simms in it working? I believe that Curt and I tried it with lower capacity SIMM modules, i.e. 8 x 16MB SIMM's, and it worked. I am not sure, however. What about other boards? I see the "ASUS P/I-P65UP5", apparently you can stick either a dual Pentium or dual Pentium Pro CPU card in this beast, also 8 SIMM slots and support for 512MB RAM. I see the "ASUS P/I-P6RP4" which only has four sockets but claims to support 128MB memory modules. Not sure I would trust that since they can't even seem to make the 64MB's work right. And I'm not up enough on my chipsets to know what the "450KX" chipset is. ... JG From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 07:18:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA09039 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 07:18:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA09028 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 07:17:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id JAA25891; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 09:17:07 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610301517.JAA25891@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Request to add this to FAQ re: swap space To: rv@groa.uct.ac.za (Russell Vincent) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 09:17:07 -0600 (CST) Cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Russell Vincent" at Oct 30, 96 07:57:55 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Joe Greco wrote (about the ASUS P/E-P55T2P4D): > > I can't get anything more than 192MB to work reliably on this board > > (6 x 32MB SIMM modules) - unless we go with the mega mondo $$$$ 64MB > > SIMM's.. and even those I have doubts about. We put the 4 that we > > have on a P/I-P55T2P4 board and it refused to work until we relaxed > > the RAM timing to 70ns. Gives me a sick feeling. > > I am running 5 P55T2P4D boards with 256MB (4x64MB) and they > are running fine (all RAM is being used by the OS). The memory > is '1st grade RAM' (whatever that may be, although definately more > expensive) and was specicially imported for these machines. Yes, we did that too, and it works fine -- in the P/E-P55T2P4D boards. However, at about $2000 per 64MB SIMM module, this is an expensive solution. And, as noted, those same SIMM modules in the P/I-P55T2P4 boards would not work at all until we relaxed the timing to 70ns. It ended up being cheaper to buy more machines each with 192MB of 32MB "cheap" EDO RAM (64MB x 4 SIMMs = $8000, 1 extra MB + 12 x 32MB SIMM's = $4000, and you end up with more memory on average too) ... JG From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 07:46:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA15101 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 07:46:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from GndRsh.aac.dev.com (GndRsh.aac.dev.com [198.145.92.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA15073 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 07:46:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rgrimes@localhost) by GndRsh.aac.dev.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA03047; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 07:44:41 -0800 (PST) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <199610301544.HAA03047@GndRsh.aac.dev.com> Subject: Re: Request to add this to FAQ re: swap space In-Reply-To: <199610301509.JAA25867@brasil.moneng.mei.com> from Joe Greco at "Oct 30, 96 09:09:55 am" To: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com (Joe Greco) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 07:44:40 -0800 (PST) Cc: rv@groa.uct.ac.za, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, current@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Joe Greco wrote (about the ASUS P/E-P55T2P4D): > > > > I can't get anything more than 192MB to work reliably on this board > > > > (6 x 32MB SIMM modules) - unless we go with the mega mondo $$$$ 64MB > > > > SIMM's.. and even those I have doubts about. We put the 4 that we > > > > have on a P/I-P55T2P4 board and it refused to work until we relaxed > > > > the RAM timing to 70ns. Gives me a sick feeling. > > > > > > I am running 5 P55T2P4D boards with 256MB (4x64MB) and they > > > are running fine (all RAM is being used by the OS). The memory > > > is '1st grade RAM' (whatever that may be, although definately more > > > expensive) and was specicially imported for these machines. > > > > But youv'e only half loaded the board, it has 8 simm sockets, try > > even adding 2 more simms and watch what happens to your stability.... > > > > The crux is, we went to the T2P4D for the 8 simm sockets, and I have > > yet to see one of these boards run correctly with even 8 single sided > > 12 chip simm modules in it! > > > > ANYONE out there have one of these boards with 8 simms in it working? > > I believe that Curt and I tried it with lower capacity SIMM modules, > i.e. 8 x 16MB SIMM's, and it worked. I am not sure, however. > > What about other boards? > > I see the "ASUS P/I-P65UP5", apparently you can stick either a dual > Pentium or dual Pentium Pro CPU card in this beast, also 8 SIMM slots > and support for 512MB RAM. I have one sitting on the shelf, but don't have a pair of spare P6 CPU chips around to test it with. I would, except the price went through the ceiling just as I got the board in :-(. > I see the "ASUS P/I-P6RP4" which only has four sockets but claims to > support 128MB memory modules. Not sure I would trust that since they > can't even seem to make the 64MB's work right. And I'm not up enough > on my chipsets to know what the "450KX" chipset is. Thats the old Orion chipset, got one of the sitting on the shelf too, don't even want to play with it until it gets updated to a B0 or later chipset. -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com Accurate Automation, Inc. Reliable computers for FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 08:14:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA20514 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 08:14:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mispwoso.nosc.mil (mispwoso.nosc.mil [198.253.16.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA20507 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 08:14:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from huck@localhost) by mispwoso.nosc.mil (8.7.6/8.7.3) id LAA00804; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:10:27 -0500 (EST) From: Craig Huckabee Message-Id: <199610301610.LAA00804@mispwoso.nosc.mil> Subject: Re: Request to add this to FAQ re: swap space To: rgrimes@GndRsh.aac.dev.com (Rodney W. Grimes) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:10:27 -0500 (EST) Cc: rv@groa.uct.ac.za, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610301449.GAA02985@GndRsh.aac.dev.com> from "Rodney W. Grimes" at "Oct 30, 96 06:49:12 am" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Joe Greco wrote (about the ASUS P/E-P55T2P4D): > > > I can't get anything more than 192MB to work reliably on this board > > > (6 x 32MB SIMM modules) - unless we go with the mega mondo $$$$ 64MB > > > SIMM's.. and even those I have doubts about. We put the 4 that we > > > have on a P/I-P55T2P4 board and it refused to work until we relaxed > > > the RAM timing to 70ns. Gives me a sick feeling. > > > > I am running 5 P55T2P4D boards with 256MB (4x64MB) and they > > are running fine (all RAM is being used by the OS). The memory > > is '1st grade RAM' (whatever that may be, although definately more > > expensive) and was specicially imported for these machines. > > But youv'e only half loaded the board, it has 8 simm sockets, try > even adding 2 more simms and watch what happens to your stability.... > > The crux is, we went to the T2P4D for the 8 simm sockets, and I have > yet to see one of these boards run correctly with even 8 single sided > 12 chip simm modules in it! > > ANYONE out there have one of these boards with 8 simms in it working? Yes. 512MB using 64MB SIMMs. Its running 2.1.5-STABLE and has been up for nearly a month. The only time it was down before that was a 'make world' to upgrade from -RELEASE to -STABLE, so in effect it has been running this way for a long time - no glitches. It runs our primary WWW server - see http://www-nise.nosc.mil. It also does some other tasks - I'm sending this email from here right now. :-) I took the advice I got from ASUS to buy quality RAM (they named Kingston or Viking) and bought 8 64MB SIMMs for ~$6700, which I'm sure isn't a rock bottom price. --Craig Huckabee huck@nosc.mil > > > -- > Rod Grimes rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com > Accurate Automation, Inc. Reliable computers for FreeBSD > From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 08:18:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA20986 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 08:18:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from night.primate.wisc.edu (night.primate.wisc.edu [144.92.43.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA20959 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 08:18:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dubois@localhost) by night.primate.wisc.edu (8.8.2/8.8.2) id KAA17123; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 10:18:50 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199610301618.KAA17123@night.primate.wisc.edu> Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 10:18:50 -0600 From: dubois@primate.wisc.edu (Paul DuBois) To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Cc: current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: <199610300043.RAA22382@phaeton.artisoft.com>; from Terry Lambert on Oct 29, 1996 17:43:51 -0700 References: <199610300043.RAA22382@phaeton.artisoft.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.47 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert writes: > It's not unreasonable for an application to expect fcntl() to work > correctly locally, and over NFS (FreeBSD doesn't have the NFS client > side, has the unintegrated patches for the NFS server side, and does > work locally. This is *without* the "bug" you note in the exclusive > locking of read-only files. It may be reasonable to expect fcntl() to work correctly, but it's not necessarily true that you're going to *get* it. Witness this note in the RELEASE_NOTES file from the sendmail distribution: Revert to using flock() whenever possible -- there are just too many bugs in fcntl() locking, particularly over NFS, that cause sendmail to fail in perverse ways. Also, perhaps I missed it in this discussion, but just what *is* the security problem WRT having /var/mail set to 1777? -- Paul DuBois dubois@primate.wisc.edu Home page: http://www.primate.wisc.edu/people/dubois Software: http://www.primate.wisc.edu/software From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 09:21:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA10669 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 09:21:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from red.jnx.com (red.jnx.com [208.197.169.254]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA10649 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 09:21:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from pst@localhost) by red.jnx.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id JAA08233; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 09:20:29 -0800 (PST) To: richardc@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (Veggy Vinny) Cc: Michael Smith , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: current libs References: <199610301014.UAA20850@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> From: Paul Traina Date: 30 Oct 1996 09:20:28 -0800 In-Reply-To: richardc@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU's message of 30 Oct 96 10:25:14 GMT Message-ID: <7y3eywbc83.fsf@red.jnx.com> Lines: 22 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.2.25/XEmacs 19.14 Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk richardc@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (Veggy Vinny) writes: > > > > On Wed, 30 Oct 1996, Michael Smith wrote: > > > Veggy Vinny stands accused of saying: > > > > I said "I just checked", and that's what I meant: > > Interesting, I don't know what's the problem since all the other > files in /usr/lib get updated except the *crt*.o files and the ones in > /usr/lib don't even have schg flag to prevent it from being overwritten... > > Vince > GaiaNet Corporation - Unix Networking Operations - GUS Mailing Lists Admin > > If we're using install -C on those files, they will not get overwritten if the new files are the same as the old files. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 09:36:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA14945 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 09:36:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from austin.polstra.com (austin.polstra.com [206.213.73.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA14937 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 09:36:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from austin.polstra.com (jdp@localhost) by austin.polstra.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA15961; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 09:36:44 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199610301736.JAA15961@austin.polstra.com> To: richardc@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU Cc: current@freebsd.org, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au Subject: Re: current libs In-reply-to: References: Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 09:36:44 -0800 From: John Polstra Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Interesting, I don't know what's the problem since all the other > files in /usr/lib get updated except the *crt*.o files and the ones in > /usr/lib don't even have schg flag to prevent it from being overwritten... Take a look at /usr/src/lib/csu/i386/Makefile. The crt files are installed with "install -C". It intentionally doesn't touch the files if they haven't changed. -- John Polstra jdp@polstra.com John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA "Self-knowledge is always bad news." -- John Barth From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 10:26:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA18693 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 10:26:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA18683 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 10:26:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.2/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id SAA19218; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 18:25:37 GMT Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 03:25:37 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: "Marc G. Fournier" cc: Terry Lambert , Mark Crispin , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 29 Oct 1996, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > Now, Terry mentions mail readers such as ELM, which, from the > last time I configured/installed it a couple of years ago, actually > gives you a choice of 3 locking methods, none of which are forced > upon you...'.lock' being one of the three, and I think fcntl/flock were > the other two... I now remember why BSDI changed their /var/mail permissions ... ls -ld /var/mail drwxrwxr-x 2 root mail 512 Oct 19 1995 /var/mail ll `which elm` -r-x--s--x 1 bin mail 233472 Apr 26 1995 /usr/contrib/bin/elm There was some kind of problem with elm at the time and mail gid thing fixed it. Regards, Mike Hancock From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 11:41:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA24320 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:41:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA24314 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:41:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from cenotaph.snafu.de (root@gw-deadnet.snafu.de [194.121.229.33]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id LAA28940 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:41:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by cenotaph.snafu.de id m0vIdcE-000ZnaC; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:35:42 +0100 (MET) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #1) Message-Id: From: mickey@gw-deadnet.snafu.de (Andreas S. Wetzel) Subject: Strange syscons behaviour in -current? To: current@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:35:41 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL13] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi! --- I today updated my second machine with -current by doing a make reinstall. I then compiled a new kernel and while rebooting found the following strange behaviour of syscons: While booting it shows up with the following: FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT #0: Wed Oct 30 17:09:54 MET 1996 root@deadline.snafu.de:/usr/src/sys/compile/CENOTAPH Calibrating clock(s) relative to mc146818A clock ... i8254 clock: 1193194 Hz CPU: i486DX (486-class CPU) real memory = 8388608 (8192K bytes) avail memory = 6922240 (6760K bytes) Probing for devices on the ISA bus: sc0 at 0x60-0x6f irq 1 on motherboard But then nothing more happens on the console display, although the machine completes to boot (As I find rather fast) and everything seems to work fine. Only the console display remains unchanged still showing the above sc0 message. A dmesg on this machine shows the following: FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT #0: Wed Oct 30 17:09:54 MET 1996 root@deadline.snafu.de:/usr/src/sys/compile/CENOTAPH Calibrating clock(s) relative to mc146818A clock ... i8254 clock: 1193194 Hz CPU: i486DX (486-class CPU) real memory = 8388608 (8192K bytes) avail memory = 6922240 (6760K bytes) Probing for devices on the ISA bus: sc0 at 0x60-0x6f irq 1 on motherboard sc0: VGA mono <4 virtual consoles, flags=0x0> ed0 at 0x300-0x31f irq 15 on isa ed0: address 00:45:20:6e:97:a0, type NE2000 (16 bit) sio0 at 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 on isa sio0: type 16450 sio1 at 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa sio1: type 16550A sio2 at 0x3e8-0x3ef irq 9 on isa sio2: type 16550A sio3 at 0x2e8-0x2ef irq 5 on isa sio3: type 16550A aha0 at 0x330-0x333 irq 12 drq 6 on isa (aha0:0:0): "FUJITSU M2624S-512 0202" type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd0(aha0:0:0): Direct-Access 497MB (1018668 512 byte sectors) fdc0 at 0x3f0-0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on isa fdc0: NEC 72065B fd0: 1.44MB 3.5in npx0 on motherboard npx0: 387 emulator Same kernel compiled with PCVT instead of syscons does not do this, but causes me some other problems on this machine. The machine runs a Tseng ET4000 ISA graphics board with an IBM PS2 monochrome VGA display. Neither does my other machine which runs an ELSA Winner 1000 board on a Sony color graphics display show such a behaviour, nor did this machine with FreeBSD kernels before 06/25/96. Did someone else perhaps observe a similar behaviour? Are there any suggestions which could change this to working again? Any help appreciated. Regards, Mickey From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 12:45:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA27954 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 12:45:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA27946 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 12:45:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (richardc@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA29481; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 12:46:02 -0800 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 12:46:00 -0800 (PST) From: Veggy Vinny To: John Polstra cc: current@freebsd.org, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au Subject: Re: current libs In-Reply-To: <199610301736.JAA15961@austin.polstra.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 30 Oct 1996, John Polstra wrote: > > Interesting, I don't know what's the problem since all the other > > files in /usr/lib get updated except the *crt*.o files and the ones in > > /usr/lib don't even have schg flag to prevent it from being overwritten... > > Take a look at /usr/src/lib/csu/i386/Makefile. The crt files are > installed with "install -C". It intentionally doesn't touch the files > if they haven't changed. Oh okay, didn't know that... It seems like it was necessary when the crt had to be compiled first when -current broke one time that you fixed later on John. =) Vince GaiaNet Corporation - Unix Networking Operations - GUS Mailing Lists Admin From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 13:34:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA02087 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 13:34:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (sdennis@tomobiki-cho.cac.washington.edu [128.95.135.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA02080 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 13:34:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM by Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (8.7.5/UW-NDC Revision: 2.28 ) id NAA16267; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 13:34:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM (NX5.67e/UW-NDC/Panda Revision: 2.27.MRC ) id AA02761; Wed, 30 Oct 96 13:34:32 -0800 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 10:56:37 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: Joe Greco Cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, terry@lambert.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de, roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, current@FreeBSD.org, scrappy@ki.net In-Reply-To: <199610301451.IAA25819@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 30 Oct 1996 08:51:27 -0600 (CST), Joe Greco wrote: > Has it ever dawned on you that if you were to make this sort of policy > decision bubble up to the surface via a Configure-like mechanism, in the > manner that Elm does, that this would completely solve your problem? No, this won't. Most people who have systems and install software do not know what an fcntl is. Most people who have systems and install software don't even build their own software. If you are smart enough to know what the right answer is to "use fcntl or lock file", and understand all the implications of that decision when your system is in a heterogenuous NFS cluster, then you are smart enough to know how to look at the code and find the compile-time option to turn off a warning message. Do you even use the software in question? If not, then shut up and leave the discussion to those who have a stake in the question. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 13:47:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA02936 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 13:47:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from quagmire.ki.net (root@quagmire.ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA02929 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 13:47:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by quagmire.ki.net (8.8.2/8.7.5) with SMTP id QAA09038; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:44:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:44:46 -0500 (EST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Mark Crispin cc: Joe Greco , terry@lambert.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de, roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 30 Oct 1996, Mark Crispin wrote: > On Wed, 30 Oct 1996 08:51:27 -0600 (CST), Joe Greco wrote: > > Has it ever dawned on you that if you were to make this sort of policy > > decision bubble up to the surface via a Configure-like mechanism, in the > > manner that Elm does, that this would completely solve your problem? > > No, this won't. Most people who have systems and install software do not know > what an fcntl is. Most people who have systems and install software don't > even build their own software. > > If you are smart enough to know what the right answer is to "use fcntl or lock > file", and understand all the implications of that decision when your system > is in a heterogenuous NFS cluster, then you are smart enough to know how to > look at the code and find the compile-time option to turn off a warning > message. > Ummm...this argument doesn't quite hold water...the start of this whole discussion was an email to you asking about an error message that had insufficent data for me to determine the problem, and, therefore, the solution. The only reason I even thought about permissions problem when I sent you that email was because the last time it happened, after searching through the code trying to figure out *why* it was happening for several hours, I sent you email and you sent me back the solution to my problem :( Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 14:01:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA03734 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 14:01:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu (halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu [18.26.0.159]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA03729 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 14:01:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/19Aug95-0530PM) id AA12682; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:00:18 -0500 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:00:18 -0500 From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <9610302200.AA12682@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> To: Joe Greco Cc: current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: References: <199610301451.IAA25819@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk < said: > [flamage deleted] I suggest that people just drop this. Crispin is a well-known flamer and is not likely to be swayed by anyone else's idea of the Right Thing. -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | O Siem / We are all family / O Siem / We're all the same wollman@lcs.mit.edu | O Siem / The fires of freedom Opinions not those of| Dance in the burning flame MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| - Susan Aglukark and Chad Irschick From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 14:16:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA04566 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 14:16:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA04558 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 14:16:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id QAA26662; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:13:36 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610302213.QAA26662@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:13:36 -0600 (CST) Cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, terry@lambert.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de, roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, current@FreeBSD.org, scrappy@ki.net In-Reply-To: from "Mark Crispin" at Oct 30, 96 10:56:37 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Wed, 30 Oct 1996 08:51:27 -0600 (CST), Joe Greco wrote: > > Has it ever dawned on you that if you were to make this sort of policy > > decision bubble up to the surface via a Configure-like mechanism, in the > > manner that Elm does, that this would completely solve your problem? > > No, this won't. Most people who have systems and install software do not know > what an fcntl is. Most people who have systems and install software don't > even build their own software. Then, who does build their software? Maybe you meant that somebody with a clue builds their software. But then this would not be a problem. Now, if you were really interested in a SOLUTION to this problem, rather than just defending your position on the matter, you would consider a Configure-style solution. It should be trivial to figure out, even at run time. THINK about what I am saying: If a system has a mail spool that is mode 0755, you CAN NOT use .lock style locking: it will not work. Not only IMAP but also Elm and other mail agents WILL NOT be able to lock the mailboxes. IF this is the result of a local configuration error, it is MUCH more serious than just your one agent. HOWEVER, it is very likely that a system with mode 0755 was set up specifically because the mail system was engineered to handle that. If a system has a mode 0775 mail spool, AND the program has been started setgid, then you may clearly use .lock style locking, and the system appears to be suggesting this to you. There is no harm in doing so. If a system has mode 0775 mail spool and the program has NOT been started setgid, one could examine the setgid status of /bin/mail (/usr/bin/mail, whatever the heck) to determine if your agent should be running setgid but in fact is not. In that case, clearly a warning SHOULD be issued. If a system has mode ?777 mail spool, you may clearly use .lock style locking. Using file locking in all cases is, apparently, at least not harmful, and could probably be used consistently. I may be incorrect. So, I remain confused: what is so freaking bad about working out a Configure-style solution that: 1) Gets the mode on ${mailspooldir} 2) Gets the setgid status of ${systemdefaultmailprogram} 3) Compares them using the above matrix, and 4) Compiles your agent appropriately? I would prefer that it actually ASK the user, after having set the defaults appropriately, but I am not going to argue trivial details. GEEEEEZ. It's not rocket science to do this stuff. I haven't been naive enough to expect my code to compile identically on all boxes using the same paradigms for the better part of a decade. > If you are smart enough to know what the right answer is to "use fcntl or lock > file", and understand all the implications of that decision when your system > is in a heterogenuous NFS cluster, then you are smart enough to know how to > look at the code and find the compile-time option to turn off a warning > message. Yes, I agree. So for the rest of the world, you want to print a confusing and potentially worrisome message because their more sophisticated and modern UNIX system does not conform to your idea of How The World Must Work? I'm lost as to why that must obviously be correct. I've been building software under many UNIX variants for many years. All the good packages attempt to make as many reasonable guesses as possible about their environment. This generally allows an administrator to pull the software out of the tarball, glance at README/INSTALL, maybe type "sh Configure" or somesuch, and then type "make; make install". Since this whole thread was started when Marc Fournier (who - as far as I can tell - is a very competent systems administrator) ran into this problem, it appears that your assertion that ""If you are smart enough to know what the right answer[...], then you are smart enough to know how to look at the code and find the compile-time option to turn off a warning"" is just not true. > Do you even use the software in question? If not, then shut up and leave the > discussion to those who have a stake in the question. I've been dealing with mail systems, issues, and implementations for years. I apologize if I didn't make that clear. I've also been around long enough to recognize your name as someone who is rather unlikely to be swayed by rational argument and modern configuration practices. So please do not bother responding to this message, since I know you think that I am wrong. ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/546-7968 From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 14:29:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA05241 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 14:29:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from zeus.xtalwind.net (slipper14b.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.78]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA05231 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 14:29:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zeus.xtalwind.net (8.8.2/8.8.2) with SMTP id RAA04711; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:29:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:29:14 -0500 (EST) From: jack X-Sender: jack@localhost To: "Marc G. Fournier" cc: Ollivier Robert , current@freebsd.org, Mark Crispin Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 30 Oct 1996, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > Can anyone verify what the other *BSD variants do? BSDi? > NetBSD? OpenBSD? > > Mark argued that FreeBSD is technically "unsupported" ... but > that BSDi/NetBSD were ... if that's the case, then are they setting > their /var/mail to 1777? Or do their admins go through the same > procedures as I just did to get IMAP4 to quiet down? ls -l on two of our BSDi boxes shows drwxrwxr-x 2 root mail {size} mail -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Finger jacko@onyx.xtalwind.net or jack@xtalwind.net http://www.xtalwind.net/~jacko/pubpgp.html #include for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 15:26:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA09121 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:26:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA09101 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:25:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 0.56 #1) id E0vIk0N-0007iE-00; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:25:03 -0700 To: Veggy Vinny Subject: Re: current libs Cc: Michael Smith , current@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 30 Oct 1996 02:06:48 PST." References: Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:25:02 -0700 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message Veggy Vinny writes: : Are you sure it's updated because I know on any system I do a make : world on or even just go to /usr/src/lib/csu/i386 and do make depend ; : make clean ; make ; make install, it doesn't seem to write over the file : as the old timestamp is still there unless I removed it first. And this : has happened on all the machines even a year ago. Is -C default on the install now? If so, then they won't be overwritten unless they are different. Warner From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 15:31:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA09392 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:31:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA09387 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:31:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 0.56 #1) id E0vIk4M-0007ic-00; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:29:10 -0700 To: Alan Lundin Subject: Re: 2.1.5r -> current upgrade Cc: Michael Smith , current@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 30 Oct 1996 06:17:11 MST." <199610301317.GAA13054@lundin.abq.nm.us> References: <199610301317.GAA13054@lundin.abq.nm.us> Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:29:10 -0700 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199610301317.GAA13054@lundin.abq.nm.us> Alan Lundin writes: : * "make world" takes a really, really long time! On my 486DX2/66 + VLB Ultrastor controller + 32M it is between 9 and 10 hours. I'd really like to see an 82 minute make world, but I don't have the $6k it takes to get the hardware to do that :-(. Warner P.S. I am looking at spending $1k to get a dual pentium 133 system, which might have a decent shot at coming close to at least 2 hour mark :-), assuming the tree is make -j able. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 16:05:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA11035 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:05:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from quagmire.ki.net (root@quagmire.ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA11030 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:05:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by quagmire.ki.net (8.8.2/8.7.5) with SMTP id TAA11075 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 19:05:46 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 19:05:46 -0500 (EST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: current@freebsd.org Subject: SCSI Hangs...possible to reset? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi... This afternoon, after 3+ days of uptime, my news server had what appears to be a SCSI bus hang...I'm not *too* concerned about it, but have noticed something "neat" about Solaris. In the same office, we have a Sparc20 running Solaris, and every once in a while, we seem to get a SCSI bus hang there as well, but after Xsecs (seems like about a minute, might be less), the system seems to send a reset and continues on its way. What I'm seeing might not be what I think it is (ie. might not be a SCSI bus hang), but its what it feels like... Now, under BSDi, when I used to run it, the newer versions would actually put out a message to the console when the bus hung, so that you knew what was wrong...so it seems that in the PC world, there is a way to detect a hang... ...the question is, is there no way of issuing a RESET so that the deadlock causing the hang is cleared? Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 16:18:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA11800 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:18:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA11788 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:18:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA24416; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:13:12 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610310013.RAA24416@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: dubois@primate.wisc.edu (Paul DuBois) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:13:12 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610301618.KAA17123@night.primate.wisc.edu> from "Paul DuBois" at Oct 30, 96 10:18:50 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > It may be reasonable to expect fcntl() to work correctly, but it's > not necessarily true that you're going to *get* it. Witness this > note in the RELEASE_NOTES file from the sendmail distribution: > > Revert to using flock() whenever possible -- there are just > too many bugs in fcntl() locking, particularly over > NFS, that cause sendmail to fail in perverse ways. > > Also, perhaps I missed it in this discussion, but just what *is* > the security problem WRT having /var/mail set to 1777? % id uid=501(terry) gid=20(staff) groups=20(staff), 0(wheel), 552(ncvs) % touch /var/mail/dubois % chmod 644 !$ % ls -l !$ -rw-r--r-- 1 terry wheel 0 Oct 30 17:02 /var/mail/dubois % mail -s "pay me a dollar to unlock your mail" dubois < /dev/null Null message body; hope that's ok % Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 16:22:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA12044 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:22:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA12039 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:22:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA24436; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:15:15 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610310015.RAA24436@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: wollman@lcs.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:15:15 -0700 (MST) Cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <9610302200.AA12682@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> from "Garrett Wollman" at Oct 30, 96 05:00:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > < said: > > [flamage deleted] > > I suggest that people just drop this. Crispin is a well-known flamer > and is not likely to be swayed by anyone else's idea of the Right > Thing. He is also the principle author (apparently) of IMAP4, a highly desirable piece of software for anyone with a 1995 or later mail client. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 16:29:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA12522 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:29:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (root@mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA12516 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:29:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from campa.panke.de (anonymous222.ppp.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.222]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.6.13/8.6.12) with ESMTP id BAA29968; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 01:24:45 +0100 Received: (from wosch@localhost) by campa.panke.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA01049; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 00:13:13 +0100 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 00:13:13 +0100 From: Wolfram Schneider Message-Id: <199610302313.AAA01049@campa.panke.de> To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org (FreeBSD-current users) Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/bin/sh main.c options.c options.h sh.1 In-Reply-To: <199610290655.HAA03985@uriah.heep.sax.de> References: <199610290312.TAA18784@freefall.freebsd.org> <199610290655.HAA03985@uriah.heep.sax.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J. Wunsch writes: >The most important part now though is (sorry for shouting :): > > IT IS HIGHLY RECOMMENDED THAT YOU START YOUR SHELL SCRIPTS > WITH > > #!/bin/sh -p > > NOW! > >This is in particular true for things that can be invoked by random >users like login shell scripts, but might also come handy for things >like /dev/MAKEDEV. > >For the reasoning why this is useful, refer to PR docs/1383. (This PR >can now be closed after updating the ppp man page.) I think the ppp man page should be changed to #!/bin/sh -p exec /usr/sbin/ppp -direct ^^^^ Wolfram From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 16:45:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA13394 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:45:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost2.cac.washington.edu (mailhost2.cac.washington.edu [140.142.33.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA13380 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:44:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM (UW-Gateway.Panda.COM [192.107.14.65]) by mailhost2.cac.washington.edu (8.8.2+UW96.10/8.8.2+UW96.10) with SMTP id QAA02638; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:43:30 -0800 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 14:16:32 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: Joe Greco cc: terry@lambert.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de, roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, current@FreeBSD.org, scrappy@ki.net In-Reply-To: <199610302213.QAA26662@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:13:36 -0600 (CST), Joe Greco wrote: > Then, who does build their software? The guy who built the a CD-ROM. > Maybe you meant that somebody with a clue builds their software. But > then this would not be a problem. Who has a clue as to whether or not J. Random FreeBSD system, unknown to them, will [n]ever be used in a configuration (such as an NFS mount) where a .lock file is needed? I don't. You don't either. If you say that you have such a clue, you are wrong. The sign of true knowledge is to admit that there are some things that you just don't know. > Now, if you were really interested in a SOLUTION to this problem, rather > than just defending your position on the matter, you would consider a > Configure-style solution. > It should be trivial to figure out, even at run time. It is trivial only to someone who hasn't considered the full implications of the issue. As soon as you do so, it becomes increasingly obscure. > If a system has a mail spool that is mode 0755, you CAN NOT use .lock style > locking: it will not work. Unless the presumption of that system is that anything which access mail files will be setuid root. Surprise! Such systems exists. > IF this is the result of a local > configuration error, it is MUCH more serious than just your one agent. This is precisely why a warning message is output. If this is not the intent, then something is very seriously wrong. > HOWEVER, it is very likely that a system with mode 0755 was set up > specifically because the mail system was engineered to handle that. No, it is very likely that some setup script made this decision, often without the installer's full understanding of the issues. This happens all the time. That is EXACTLY what happened to Marc. > If a system has a mode 0775 mail spool, AND the program has been started > setgid, then you may clearly use .lock style locking, and the system > appears to be suggesting this to you. There is no harm in doing so. Unless the user is running software that she imported herself because the system manager at the Very Big Computer Center is a jerk who won't install anything other than his own favorite mail program. This happens all the time too. Another thing that happens is that the software is not designed to run with privileges, and even depends upon the operating system to determine what files it can access. In either situation, these users need to be warned that there is a problem. > If a system has mode 0775 mail spool and the program has NOT been started > setgid, one could examine the setgid status of /bin/mail (/usr/bin/mail, > whatever the heck) to determine if your agent should be running setgid but > in fact is not. In that case, clearly a warning SHOULD be issued. /bin/mail runs setgid and/or setuid on all systems for reasons unrelated to locking. > Using file locking in all cases is, apparently, at least not harmful, > and could probably be used consistently. I may be incorrect. Then, why the hell are you flaming me? This entire issue is coming up because the user got a warning message, and didn't know why. He has two choices: 1) use the configuration I recommend with 1777, and if necessary take measures to reduce potential denial-of-service problems to irrelvance (this *is* doable!) 2) disable the warning, and take a chance that one day, he will need to do a lock file and can't, and end up with screwed-up data. I tell people to do (1), and point them at how to figure out how to do (2). > So, I remain confused: what is so freaking bad about working out a > Configure-style solution Because the correct configuration/action is not determined at compile time, it is determined at run time for each individual mailbox! If you try it, and it works, you probably needed to do it. If you try it, and it doesn't work, the answer is "either don't do it, or the system is incorrectly configured" and you don't know which (and I explained why you can't look at /bin/mail to find out). There ain't any good answers here. The only safe thing to do is "try 'em all; if you get back an error, report the error unless you've been told to quell the error reports." It used to be that the default was to quell the warning. That default may be right for you, but that default has been proven WRONG for hundreds of other systems that I've had to help fix. This came about thanks to various "security check" scripts floating around the network. The correct configuration of those systems was a public spool, set up as noted above. Mail delivery used .lock files, not system call locking. Without the system manager's knowledge (or, more commonly, his understanding), the "security check" script "fixed" the protection of the spool. The mail readers couldn't make a .lock file, and since the error message was quelled they didn't complain. After all, they could apply a system call lock. So, for several months, they had periodic complaints of lost mail or corrupted mail files, and couldn't figure out why. Many of these sites didn't have source code to their mail delivery program either. So much for the site knowing what sort of locking to use. > GEEEEEZ. It's not rocket science to do this stuff. No, it's crystal ball. You don't know all the answers. Nobody does. The moment that you realize this will be your moment of satori. To someone who's been dealing with this damn problem for over two decades, it is extremely irritating to deal with people who think they know all the answers. In terms of your snide remark about "rational argument", that's what creationists say about scientists on the subject of evolution. Just like creationists, you insist upon saying "but all you have to do is assume X and then Y must be this way". If X is flawed, then you can't use it. Your arguments rest upon certain false hypotheses: a) It can be known at build time what locking protocol to use. b) All files are accessed using the same locking protocol. c) It can be known, if a locking protocol fails, whether or not it is a true locking failure which must be reported. d) All instances of a particular operating system work the same way. The issue on the table is: How do you lock a mail file, when there is uncertainty about the locking protocol used by the agent that delivers to that mail file, uncertainty about the identity of the agent that delivers to that mail file, and uncertainty about the constancy of either of these over time? Observations: There are two major forms of locking, lock files and system calls. Some programs do both. The result of doing either unnecessarily is wasted effort. The result of failing to do either when it was necessary is eventual trashing of a mail file. You know when a lock file fails; you get an OS error. If it was necessary, the error should be reported. If it was unnecessary, the error should be ignored. A system call lock either fails over NFS, or involves a fragile mechanism that sometimes causes a cluster-wide hang. Most expert option is to eschew doing a system call lock over NFS. The right way to lock may be one mechanism on one file, and a completely different mechanism on another file. One way this can happen is when heterogenous environment NFS is involved. Additional requirements: Produce a plug-and-play binary, or at least sources that don't ask questions that J. Random Loser can't answer. Work properly today, and also tommorrow even when something new is pushed at it (such as an NFS mount to a mail spool on a system OS). Be safe rather than sorry. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 17:14:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA15090 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:14:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA15083; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:14:56 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199610310114.RAA15083@freefall.freebsd.org> To: "Marc G. Fournier" cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SCSI Hangs...possible to reset? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 30 Oct 1996 19:05:46 EST." Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:14:56 -0800 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > ...the question is, is there no way of issuing a RESET so that >the deadlock causing the hang is cleared? Some device drivers are better then others. The aic7xxx driver, for instance, will reset the bus if a timeout occurs and an abort message is unsucessful in clearing the problem. The abort logic is in the process of being moved to the generic SCSI layer so other drivers can take advantage of it, but I can only update the drivers for controllers I have documentation for, so this make take a little time. > >Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net >Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org -- Justin T. Gibbs =========================================== FreeBSD: Turning PCs into workstations =========================================== From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 21:07:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA26532 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 21:07:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [199.201.191.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA26525 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 21:07:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from MindBender.serv.net by mx.serv.net (8.7.5/SERV Revision: 2.30) id VAA25563; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 21:07:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.serv.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA06709; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 21:07:03 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199610310507.VAA06709@MindBender.serv.net> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.serv.net: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Warner Losh cc: Alan Lundin , Michael Smith , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 2.1.5r -> current upgrade In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 30 Oct 96 16:29:10 -0700. Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 21:07:00 -0800 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >In message <199610301317.GAA13054@lundin.abq.nm.us> Alan Lundin writes: >: * "make world" takes a really, really long time! >On my 486DX2/66 + VLB Ultrastor controller + 32M it is between 9 and >10 hours. I'd really like to see an 82 minute make world, but I don't >have the $6k it takes to get the hardware to do that :-(. I've done make world (on NetBSD) in 81 minutes on my single P6-200. :-) It doesn't take $6K... >P.S. I am looking at spending $1k to get a dual pentium 133 system, >which might have a decent shot at coming close to at least 2 hour mark >:-), assuming the tree is make -j able. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@MindBender.serv.net --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 22:06:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA01188 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 22:06:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from quagmire.ki.net (root@quagmire.ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA01174 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 22:06:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by quagmire.ki.net (8.8.2/8.7.5) with SMTP id BAA16258; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 01:06:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 01:06:47 -0500 (EST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: "Justin T. Gibbs" cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SCSI Hangs...possible to reset? In-Reply-To: <199610310114.RAA15083@freefall.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 30 Oct 1996, Justin T. Gibbs wrote: > > ...the question is, is there no way of issuing a RESET so that > >the deadlock causing the hang is cleared? > > Some device drivers are better then others. The aic7xxx driver, for > instance, will reset the bus if a timeout occurs and an abort message > is unsucessful in clearing the problem. The abort logic is in the > process of being moved to the generic SCSI layer so other drivers > can take advantage of it, but I can only update the drivers for > controllers I have documentation for, so this make take a little > time. > Cool, that sounds very encouraging...any chance one of those controllers happens to be the NCR PCI? :) Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 22:07:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA01241 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 22:07:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from quagmire.ki.net (root@quagmire.ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA01234 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 22:07:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by quagmire.ki.net (8.8.2/8.7.5) with SMTP id BAA16250; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 01:05:30 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 01:05:30 -0500 (EST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Terry Lambert cc: Garrett Wollman , jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: <199610310015.RAA24436@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 30 Oct 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > > < said: > > > [flamage deleted] > > > > I suggest that people just drop this. Crispin is a well-known flamer > > and is not likely to be swayed by anyone else's idea of the Right > > Thing. > > He is also the principle author (apparently) of IMAP4, a highly > desirable piece of software for anyone with a 1995 or later mail > client. > Agreed...which is why I brought this whole discussion into here... From what Mark has said, about the only way I can think of for getting this *obvious* security bug fixed is to, either: a) get other OS system administrators to complain about the security hole opened up by 1777 b) talk to the guy that signs his paycheck, since he has already stated once something to the effect that if he were to change the code, those that pay his check would be breathing down his neck... 3 years ago, I stopped supporting Elm and supported IMAP/Pine *because* I no longer had to worry about the possibility of file corruption associated with dealing with NFS-mounted mail spools. IMHO...what having .lock locking capabilities in IMAP4 is doing is encouraging system administrators to use NFS mounted mail spools, instead of *teaching* system administrators to *not* setup their systems that way... Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 22:30:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA03042 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 22:30:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.webspan.net (mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA03036; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 22:30:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA13646; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 01:29:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from orion.webspan.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orion.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA01389; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 01:29:18 -0500 (EST) To: Joe Greco cc: bsdcur@shadows.aeon.net (mika ruohotie), dyson@freebsd.org, dtc@scrooge.ee.swin.oz.au, current@freebsd.org From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: Request to add this to FAQ re: swap space In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:28:03 CST." <199610291728.LAA24544@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 01:29:17 -0500 Message-ID: <1386.846743357@orion.webspan.net> Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joe Greco wrote in message ID <199610291728.LAA24544@brasil.moneng.mei.com>: > You do not really want to swap on a news server. On my news servers I try > to go min 4x RAM but I have a fit if I see any substantial percentage being > used (I don't mind if daemons get swapped out). I have 220Mb of swap on our news box, with 256Mb of RAM .. if the machine swaps, it slows down in more than one way, since the disks are MEANT to be used for article/history I/O, NOT swapping. It actually gets to ~100Mb used at the minute, and I'm gonna try and get some more RAM for this box (although it normally runs at 30-40Mb in `cache' according to top, no matter what, even if it fills swap, which I think is wrong somehow) Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 22:33:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA03239 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 22:33:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.webspan.net (mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA03233; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 22:33:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA14030; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 01:32:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from orion.webspan.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orion.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA01672; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 01:32:08 -0500 (EST) To: Joe Greco cc: rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com (Rodney W. Grimes), dyson@freebsd.org, dtc@scrooge.ee.swin.oz.au, current@freebsd.org From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: Request to add this to FAQ re: swap space In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 29 Oct 1996 12:27:22 CST." <199610291827.MAA24642@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 01:32:08 -0500 Message-ID: <1670.846743528@orion.webspan.net> Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joe Greco wrote in message ID <199610291827.MAA24642@brasil.moneng.mei.com>: > I am still waiting to hear how to get 256MB RAM on a motherboard reliably. > :-) Since our news box here has 256Mb, it's easy :-) 4 64Mb SIMMS on a Tyan Titan Pro P6 motherboard work fine... > I would really like to get 512MB RAM on one of these boards. I want to get 512Mb RAM in our news box, but I doubt I will *sigh* If nothing else, I think the kernel needs tweeks when you go to that size (David?) Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 22:54:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA04229 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 22:54:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.webspan.net (mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA04222 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 22:54:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA16553; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 01:53:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from orion.webspan.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orion.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA02498; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 01:53:46 -0500 (EST) To: Mark Crispin cc: Joe Greco , terry@lambert.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de, roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, current@FreeBSD.org, scrappy@ki.net From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 29 Oct 1996 18:14:11 PST." Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 01:53:46 -0500 Message-ID: <2495.846744826@orion.webspan.net> Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mark Crispin wrote in message ID : > Has it ever dawned on any of you that a user on a FreeBSD system just might b > e > getting the mail spool via NFS from a different flavor of UNIX, one that uses > the .lock files instead? Probably not, but it's my job to think about such > things and make sure that they work, because golly gee, people do such things No, probably because without NFS locking, it will have a tendancy to destroy mail. Ergo, it isn't done :-) NFS for e-mail is evil and people who do it should be shot. POP and IMAP are perfectly reasonable ways of collecting e-mail (and yes, I do know what the subject of this discussion is/was). Some people who have a mad love for /usr/bin/mail want /var/mail NFS mounted from the mail box to the shell box. I tell them to use fetchmail. Problem solved. To be perfectly honest, I don't see the problem here ... make the locking method an option, just like elm does. No more problem. Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 22:56:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA04308 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 22:56:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.webspan.net (mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA04303; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 22:56:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA16717; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 01:55:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from orion.webspan.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orion.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA02548; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 01:55:02 -0500 (EST) To: dyson@FreeBSD.org Cc: Tor.Egge@idt.ntnu.no, jdp@polstra.com, bsdcur@shadows.aeon.net, current@FreeBSD.org From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: Request to add this to FAQ re: swap space In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 29 Oct 1996 22:07:06 EST." <199610300307.WAA12073@dyson.iquest.net> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 01:55:02 -0500 Message-ID: <2546.846744902@orion.webspan.net> Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk "John S. Dyson" wrote in message ID <199610300307.WAA12073@dyson.iquest.net>: > PS. you'll still need a special program to read the most complex maps. What do the various columns mean, pray tell? Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 23:15:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA05275 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 23:15:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (bruce@tomobiki-cho.cac.washington.edu [128.95.135.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA05267; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 23:15:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (8.7.5/UW-NDC Revision: 2.28 ) id XAA18061; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 23:15:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 22:59:22 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: Gary Palmer cc: Joe Greco , terry@lambert.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de, roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, current@FreeBSD.org, scrappy@ki.net In-Reply-To: <2495.846744826@orion.webspan.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 31 Oct 1996 01:53:46 -0500, Gary Palmer wrote: > No, probably because without NFS locking, it will have a tendancy to > destroy mail. Ergo, it isn't done :-) It works to lock with .lock files over NFS. You have to do nasty stuff to get it right, since O_CREAT is not implemented atomically over NFS: 1) create a file with a gensymmed unique name 2) hard link the gensymmed to the lock file name. Ignore errors from the hard link (not atomic, that's why) 3) stat the gensymmed name 4) unlink the gensymmed name. 5) if the link count from the stat is not 2, the lock failed. > NFS for e-mail is evil and people who do it should be shot. You will have no dispute from me there. I've been saying this for at least 11 years. That is why I invented IMAP. > Some people who have > a mad love for /usr/bin/mail want /var/mail NFS mounted from the mail > box to the shell box. I tell them to use fetchmail. Problem solved. I do not have the option of doing this. Suppose The Very Big Corporation of America offered you a megabuck or two for FreeBSD development -- but only if you made NFS-mounted mail worked, because TVBCA insists upon it. How hard will you stick to your principles? > To be perfectly honest, I don't see the problem here ... make the > locking method an option, just like elm does. No more problem. What about my users who thank me for *NOT* doing this, because they find Elm's options too confusing? Sorry, but I support the plug-n-play crowd, and I have to make compromises to support them. It doesn't matter what hackers think about the compromises. Real hackers are quite capable of working around them. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 23:30:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA06096 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 23:30:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.webspan.net (mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA06091 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 23:30:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA20510; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 02:29:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from orion.webspan.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orion.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA03936; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 02:29:48 -0500 (EST) To: Joe Greco cc: rv@groa.uct.ac.za (Russell Vincent), current@freebsd.org From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: Request to add this to FAQ re: swap space In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 30 Oct 1996 09:17:07 CST." <199610301517.JAA25891@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 02:29:48 -0500 Message-ID: <3932.846746988@orion.webspan.net> Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joe Greco wrote in message ID <199610301517.JAA25891@brasil.moneng.mei.com>: > However, at about $2000 per 64MB SIMM module, this is an expensive > solution. Umm? When was that a price? RAM price now says that you should be able to get a 60ns 16x36 72pin SIMM for a lot less (under $1k I'd have thought) Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 23:47:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA06829 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 23:47:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA06824 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 23:47:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (ala-ca13-08.ix.netcom.com [204.32.168.40]) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA26697 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 23:46:23 -0800 Received: (from asami@localhost) by silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (8.8.2/8.6.9) id XAA02701; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 23:45:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 23:45:12 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199610310745.XAA02701@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> To: current@freebsd.org Subject: ports compilation with XFree86-3.2 From: asami@freebsd.org (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This is what I've applied to the XFree86-3.2 imake config files to make it happy with our retirement of libgnumalloc into /usr/lib/compat: ======= --- ./FreeBSD.cf.org Thu Oct 24 07:23:36 1996 +++ ./FreeBSD.cf Wed Oct 30 23:37:38 1996 @@ -2,7 +2,7 @@ XCOMM platform: $XFree86: xc/config/cf/FreeBSD.cf,v 3.54 1996/10/16 14:28:22 dawes Exp $ #ifndef OSName -#define OSName FreeBSD 2.1.5 +#define OSName FreeBSD 2.2 #endif #ifndef OSVendor #define OSVendor /**/ @@ -12,10 +12,10 @@ #define OSMajorVersion 2 #endif #ifndef OSMinorVersion -#define OSMinorVersion 1 +#define OSMinorVersion 2 #endif #ifndef OSTeenyVersion -#define OSTeenyVersion 5 +#define OSTeenyVersion 0 #endif #define HasGcc YES @@ -121,7 +121,7 @@ #endif #ifdef i386Architecture -# define OptimizedCDebugFlags -m486 DefaultGcc2i386Opt +# define OptimizedCDebugFlags DefaultGcc2i386Opt -pipe #else # define OptimizedCDebugFlags -O2 #endif ======= The second chunk is just FYI. I don't have a 486 anyway. The -pipe helps if you have enough memory. By the way, this is also how the binaries in packages-current are compiled. Satoshi From owner-freebsd-current Wed Oct 30 23:48:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA06923 for current-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 23:48:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from verdi.nethelp.no (verdi.nethelp.no [193.91.212.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA06890 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 23:47:58 -0800 (PST) From: sthaug@nethelp.no Received: (qmail 1342 invoked by uid 1001); 31 Oct 1996 07:47:54 +0000 (GMT) To: gpalmer@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, terry@lambert.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de, roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, current@FreeBSD.ORG, scrappy@ki.net Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 31 Oct 1996 01:53:46 -0500" References: <2495.846744826@orion.webspan.net> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.05+ on Emacs 19.28.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 08:47:54 +0100 Message-ID: <1340.846748074@verdi.nethelp.no> Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Has it ever dawned on any of you that a user on a FreeBSD system just might b > > e > > getting the mail spool via NFS from a different flavor of UNIX, one that uses > > the .lock files instead? Probably not, but it's my job to think about such > > things and make sure that they work, because golly gee, people do such things > > No, probably because without NFS locking, it will have a tendancy to > destroy mail. Ergo, it isn't done :-) People do mail delivery via NFS all the time. They'll do so as long as NFS exists. Please don't delude yourself into thinking that you will stop them. > NFS for e-mail is evil and people who do it should be shot. I can agree with you, but again, the fact that we agree won't stop people from using NFS for this purpose. > POP and > IMAP are perfectly reasonable ways of collecting e-mail (and yes, I do > know what the subject of this discussion is/was). Some people who have > a mad love for /usr/bin/mail want /var/mail NFS mounted from the mail > box to the shell box. I tell them to use fetchmail. Problem solved. > > To be perfectly honest, I don't see the problem here ... make the > locking method an option, just like elm does. No more problem. You don't understand what Mark is saying. The fact that you might be able to determine the correct locking method *now*, when the mail system is installed, is no guarantee for the future. In the future some other system administrator could take over, details be forgotten, the mail spool might be NFS mounted, etc. And suddenly people might start losing mail, because only one locking method was used that no longer worked reliably. I think Mark is trying to do his best to avoid losing mail, in the face of NFS and other problems. I certainly can't fault him for this, even if I don't always agree with his conclusions. Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, sthaug@nethelp.no From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 01:32:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA11180 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 01:32:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from shadows.aeon.net (bsdcur@shadows.aeon.net [194.100.41.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA11169 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 01:32:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bsdcur@localhost) by shadows.aeon.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id LAA04814; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:32:12 +0200 (EET) From: mika ruohotie Message-Id: <199610310932.LAA04814@shadows.aeon.net> Subject: Re: 2.1.5r -> current upgrade To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:32:12 +0200 (EET) Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu In-Reply-To: <199610300705.IAA09575@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Oct 30, 96 08:05:40 am" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Ah, don't you need to do some merging of files in /etc? > In case you wonder: uriah.heep.sax.de still hasn't even got an > /etc/sysconfig. Seriously. Everything is hand-whacked in rc, > rc.local and netstart. same here... shadows.aeon.net has no /etc/sysconfig either... =) i've been wondering if i should get one, but apparently it's not needed... mickey -- mika@aeon.net mika ruohotie From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 03:56:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA23156 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 03:56:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA23144 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 03:56:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.2/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id LAA27517; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:55:58 GMT Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 20:55:58 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Terry Lambert cc: Paul DuBois , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: <199610310013.RAA24416@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 30 Oct 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Also, perhaps I missed it in this discussion, but just what *is* > > the security problem WRT having /var/mail set to 1777? > > % id > uid=501(terry) gid=20(staff) groups=20(staff), 0(wheel), 552(ncvs) > % touch /var/mail/dubois > % chmod 644 !$ > % ls -l !$ > -rw-r--r-- 1 terry wheel 0 Oct 30 17:02 /var/mail/dubois > % mail -s "pay me a dollar to unlock your mail" dubois < /dev/null > Null message body; hope that's ok > % The work around is to use mailer readers that truncate instead of remove the file when all messages have been deleted or moved. Regards, Mike Hancock From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 04:52:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA28661 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 04:52:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail11.digital.com (mail11.digital.com [192.208.46.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA28627; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 04:52:32 -0800 (PST) From: garyj@frt.dec.com Received: from cssmuc.frt.dec.com by mail11.digital.com (8.7.5/UNX 1.5/1.0/WV) id HAA22705; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 07:40:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by cssmuc.frt.dec.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/14Nov95-0232PM) id AA12672; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:40:07 +0100 Message-Id: <9610311240.AA12672@cssmuc.frt.dec.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.4 10/10/95 To: questions@freebsd.org Cc: current@freebsd.org, isdn@muc.ditec.de In-Reply-To: Message from grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) of Thu, 31 Oct 96 11:23:45 +0100. Reply-To: gjennejohn@frt.dec.com Subject: Re: Any ISDN-BRI cards work under FreeBSD? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 31 Oct 96 13:40:07 +0100 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk NOTE: I added current to the Cc for wider distribution in the hope that someone will positively respond to my question below. I added the isdn mail-list because it may be of general interest to the people on that list. grog@lemis.de writes: > garyj@frt.dec.com writes: > > > > brian@mediacity.com writes: > >> I'm currently using external BitSurfer Pros, but would like to > >> recover the bandwidth that is lost to the serial port 115200 bps limit > >> and the ASYNC/SYNC conversion. > > > > even with a card you can't do that because the current ISDN code does > > not support channel aggregation. It's one of the things which are planned > > for the (who knows how distant) future. > > Still, you could have mentioned: > > In Germany and other parts of Europe, the Teles S0 and compatible > boards are supported. They *should* work in the US, though nobody's > done it yet. They currently only run single channel connections (you > can have two different connections to different destinations). The > theoretical maximum throughput is 8 kB/s (64,000 bps), which is > somewhat less than the theoretical maximum of the 115.2 kbps lines > (11.52 kB/s). > this is true, but since he wanted to use all the available bandwidth and it won't work with the current code I thought he should be informed. I'm going to be in California from Nov 7 til Nov 28 and would be more than willing to bring a pair of (ISA) cards from Germany and try to get the bisdn code working in the US. I already asked Jordan, but he can't accomodate me. Is there anyone in the Bay Area who has ISDN and a pair of boxes who'd be willing to make them available for this ? --- Gary Jennejohn (work) gjennejohn@frt.dec.com (home) Gary.Jennejohn@munich.netsurf.de (play) gj@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 05:00:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA29855 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 05:00:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from zwei.siemens.at (zwei.siemens.at [193.81.246.12]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA29831 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 05:00:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from sol1.gud.siemens.co.at (root@[10.1.143.100]) by zwei.siemens.at (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA22258 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:59:03 +0100 (MET) Received: from ws2301.gud.siemens.co.at by sol1.gud.siemens.co.at with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #7 for ) id m0vIwiy-00021LC; Thu, 31 Oct 96 13:59 MET Received: by ws2301.gud.siemens.co.at (1.37.109.16/1.37) id AA157886749; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:59:09 +0100 From: "Hr.Ladavac" Message-Id: <199610311259.AA157886749@ws2301.gud.siemens.co.at> Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: michaelh@cet.co.jp (Michael Hancock) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:59:07 +0100 (MEZ) Cc: terry@lambert.org, dubois@primate.wisc.edu, current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Michael Hancock" at Oct 31, 96 08:55:58 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk E-mail message from Michael Hancock contained: > On Wed, 30 Oct 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > Also, perhaps I missed it in this discussion, but just what *is* > > > the security problem WRT having /var/mail set to 1777? > > > > % id > > uid=501(terry) gid=20(staff) groups=20(staff), 0(wheel), 552(ncvs) > > % touch /var/mail/dubois > > % chmod 644 !$ > > % ls -l !$ > > -rw-r--r-- 1 terry wheel 0 Oct 30 17:02 /var/mail/dubois > > % mail -s "pay me a dollar to unlock your mail" dubois < /dev/null > > Null message body; hope that's ok > > % > > The work around is to use mailer readers that truncate instead of remove > the file when all messages have been deleted or moved. How about: user is not yet there, but will be ... or he didn't receive any mail yet. % whoami nasty % touch /var/mail/user % chmod 777 $! % mail -s "pay me a dollar to make your mail world unreadable" user < /dev/null Not to mention nice things you can do with symlinks, hardlinks, you-name-it... /Marino > > Regards, > > > Mike Hancock > > From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 05:48:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA05099 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 05:48:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from answerman.mindspring.com (answerman.mindspring.com [204.180.128.8]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA05074 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 05:47:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from rlb.users.mindspring.com (user-168-121-25-139.dialup.mindspring.com [168.121.25.139]) by answerman.mindspring.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA01844 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 08:53:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3278AE23.41C67EA6@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 08:48:19 -0500 From: Ron Bolin X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Linux Netscape 3.01b Working Under Current? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Does anyone have the Linux Netscape 3.0 or 3.01b working under current. I think this version (Linux) supports applets as the BSD version does not, at least my 3.0 version does not. Since I would like to get the applets working I would like to know it this works (of course one must have Linux compat) and the proper Linux Motif libs. Thank's in advance. -Ron -- **************************************************************************** Ron Bolin rlb@mindspring.com, http://www.mindspring.com/~rlb/ GSU: gs01rlb@panther.gsu.edu matrlbx@indigo4.cs.gsu.edu Home: 770-992-8877 **************************************************************************** From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 06:09:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA07074 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 06:09:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from dyson.iquest.net ([198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA07046 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 06:09:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.2/8.6.9) id JAA04959; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 09:08:30 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199610311408.JAA04959@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Linux Netscape 3.01b Working Under Current? To: rlb@mindspring.com (Ron Bolin) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 09:08:30 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3278AE23.41C67EA6@mindspring.com> from "Ron Bolin" at Oct 31, 96 08:48:19 am Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Does anyone have the Linux Netscape 3.0 or 3.01b working under current. > I think this version (Linux) supports applets as the BSD version does > not, > at least my 3.0 version does not. Since I would like to get the applets > working I would like to know it this works (of course one must have > Linux > compat) and the proper Linux Motif libs. > The BSD version supports applets nicely, it does not support plugins though. John From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 06:15:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA07667 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 06:15:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from covina.lightside.com (covina.lightside.com [207.67.176.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA07658 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 06:15:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jehamby@localhost) by covina.lightside.com (8.8.2/8.8.2) with SMTP id GAA01560; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 06:15:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 06:15:23 -0800 (PST) From: Jake Hamby To: Ron Bolin cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux Netscape 3.01b Working Under Current? In-Reply-To: <3278AE23.41C67EA6@mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 31 Oct 1996, Ron Bolin wrote: > Does anyone have the Linux Netscape 3.0 or 3.01b working under current. > I think this version (Linux) supports applets as the BSD version does > not, > at least my 3.0 version does not. Since I would like to get the applets > working I would like to know it this works (of course one must have > Linux > compat) and the proper Linux Motif libs. > > Thank's in advance. > -Ron Just use the BSD version out of the ports collection. Both 3.0 and 3.01b1 are in there. Netscape 3.0 and higher support applets under BSD, but there is a problem with the font dir that you need to take care of. The port will tell you to do this: Note: If Java applets fail to display. Type this as root: cd /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/misc /usr/X11R6/bin/mkfontdir chmod 444 fonts.dir And then exit and restart your X server. (you don't really need to restart the X server, just type: "xset fp rehash") -- Jake From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 06:38:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA10926 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 06:38:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from agora.rdrop.com (root@agora.rdrop.com [199.2.210.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA10920 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 06:38:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from sag.space.lockheed.com by agora.rdrop.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #17) id m0vIyGi-0008twC; Thu, 31 Oct 96 06:38 PST Received: from localhost by sag.space.lockheed.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/21Nov95-0423PM) id AA23308; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 06:32:44 -0800 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 06:32:44 -0800 (PST) From: "Brian N. Handy" To: Ron Bolin Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux Netscape 3.01b Working Under Current? In-Reply-To: <3278AE23.41C67EA6@mindspring.com> Message-Id: X-Files: The truth is out there Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 31 Oct 1996, Ron Bolin wrote: >Does anyone have the Linux Netscape 3.0 or 3.01b working under current. >I think this version (Linux) supports applets as the BSD version does >not, No, this isn't right...is it? Unless I don't understand what an applet is, my version runs Java applets just fine. (I'm running 960801-SNAP and Netscape 3.0.) >at least my 3.0 version does not. Since I would like to get the applets >working I would like to know it this works (of course one must have >Linux compat) and the proper Linux Motif libs. You don't need the motif libs to run Netscape. That stuff is compiled in statically. Regards, Brian From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 06:47:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA11934 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 06:47:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from Campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.225.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA11908; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 06:47:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de [137.226.31.2]) by Campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (RBI-Z-5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA06374; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:47:11 +0100 Received: (from kuku@localhost) by gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA05342; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:54:32 +0100 From: Christoph Kukulies Message-Id: <199610311454.PAA05342@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> Subject: Re: Any ISDN-BRI cards work under FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <9610311240.AA12672@cssmuc.frt.dec.com> from "garyj@frt.dec.com" at "Oct 31, 96 01:40:07 pm" To: gjennejohn@frt.dec.com Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:54:32 +0100 (MET) Cc: questions@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, isdn@muc.ditec.de Reply-To: Christoph Kukulies X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > NOTE: I added current to the Cc for wider distribution in the hope > that someone will positively respond to my question below. I added > the isdn mail-list because it may be of general interest to the people > on that list. > > grog@lemis.de writes: > > garyj@frt.dec.com writes: > > > > > > brian@mediacity.com writes: > > >> I'm currently using external BitSurfer Pros, but would like to > > >> recover the bandwidth that is lost to the serial port 115200 bps limit > > >> and the ASYNC/SYNC conversion. > > > > > > even with a card you can't do that because the current ISDN code does > > > not support channel aggregation. It's one of the things which are planned > > > for the (who knows how distant) future. > > > > Still, you could have mentioned: > > > > In Germany and other parts of Europe, the Teles S0 and compatible > > boards are supported. They *should* work in the US, though nobody's I'd really be surprised if these cards would work at 56Kb/s and if they's connect physically. > > done it yet. They currently only run single channel connections (you > > can have two different connections to different destinations). The > > theoretical maximum throughput is 8 kB/s (64,000 bps), which is > > somewhat less than the theoretical maximum of the 115.2 kbps lines > > (11.52 kB/s). Why do you divide by 8 in the one case and by 10 in the other? > > > > this is true, but since he wanted to use all the available bandwidth > and it won't work with the current code I thought he should be informed. > > I'm going to be in California from Nov 7 til Nov 28 and would be more > than willing to bring a pair of (ISA) cards from Germany and try to get the > bisdn code working in the US. I already asked Jordan, but he can't > accomodate me. Is there anyone in the Bay Area who has ISDN and a pair > of boxes who'd be willing to make them available for this ? > > > > --- > Gary Jennejohn (work) gjennejohn@frt.dec.com > (home) Gary.Jennejohn@munich.netsurf.de > (play) gj@freebsd.org > > > --Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 07:23:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA14052 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 07:23:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from GndRsh.aac.dev.com (GndRsh.aac.dev.com [198.145.92.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA14045; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 07:23:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rgrimes@localhost) by GndRsh.aac.dev.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA04639; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 07:23:20 -0800 (PST) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <199610311523.HAA04639@GndRsh.aac.dev.com> Subject: Re: Request to add this to FAQ re: swap space In-Reply-To: <3932.846746988@orion.webspan.net> from Gary Palmer at "Oct 31, 96 02:29:48 am" To: gpalmer@freebsd.org (Gary Palmer) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 07:23:20 -0800 (PST) Cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, rv@groa.uct.ac.za, current@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Joe Greco wrote in message ID > <199610301517.JAA25891@brasil.moneng.mei.com>: > > However, at about $2000 per 64MB SIMM module, this is an expensive > > solution. > > Umm? When was that a price? RAM price now says that you should be able > to get a 60ns 16x36 72pin SIMM for a lot less (under $1k I'd have > thought) Your forgetting that 64MBit dram technology is new, and that the yields are still horribly low. They do not follow the current $/MB dram pricing you see on 32MB and smaller SIMMs. Go even try and find someone who has these in stock!! It's no joy, trust me. -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com Accurate Automation, Inc. Reliable computers for FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 08:02:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA16777 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 08:02:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from casparc.ppp.net (casparc.ppp.net [194.64.12.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA16771; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 08:02:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from ernie by casparc.ppp.net with uucp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0vIzZC-000I8iC; Thu, 31 Oct 96 17:02 MET Received: by ernie.kts.org (Smail3.1.29.1 #5) id m0vIyuT-00001gC; Thu, 31 Oct 96 16:19 MET Message-Id: From: hm@kts.org (Hellmuth Michaelis) Subject: Re: Any ISDN-BRI cards work under FreeBSD? To: gjennejohn@frt.dec.com Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:19:57 +0100 (MET) Cc: questions@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, isdn@muc.ditec.de In-Reply-To: <9610311240.AA12672@cssmuc.frt.dec.com> from "garyj@frt.dec.com" at Oct 31, 96 01:40:07 pm Organization: Kitchen Table Systems Reply-To: hm@kts.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > In Germany and other parts of Europe, the Teles S0 and compatible > > boards are supported. They *should* work in the US They will not work in the US, simply because in Europe the NT is supplied by the Telecom's whereas in the US the NT has to be supplied by the user or by the device; the "user" interface in Europe is the S0 bus, in the US it is the Uk0 interface. A Teles bought in Europe has a S0 interface. There is a chance to get a Teles working in the US by also carrying an NT for every card with you, but i doubt this setup will work because of timing differences in the US. hellmuth -- Hellmuth Michaelis hm@kts.org Hamburg, Europe (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nstall BSD ? From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 08:54:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA20023 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 08:54:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA19988 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 08:53:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id RAA01402; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 17:51:44 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id RAA29598; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 17:51:39 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id RAA14519; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 17:38:30 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610311638.RAA14519@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: 2.1.5r -> current upgrade To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD-current users) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 17:38:30 +0100 (MET) Cc: aflundi@lundin.abq.nm.us (Alan Lundin) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199610301317.GAA13054@lundin.abq.nm.us> from Alan Lundin at "Oct 30, 96 06:17:11 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Alan Lundin wrote: > * being unsure about current, I wanted to have current > on one disk, and 2.1.5R on another. It took me a > while to discover that only SCSI targets 0 and 1 > where bootable from the default BSD boot -- at > least with my hardware. That's only a matter of your BIOS not mapping more than two drives into INT 0x13. Modern controller BIOSes offer to map all drives (and sometimes even allow you to select which drives should be included and which not). > * "make world" takes a really, really long time! If you are confident with the various subtargets, it's often faster and more convenient to not use `make world', in particular for users of slower machines. This however requires a good understanding of what is happening when, and what has been changed in the recent time so you could e.g. rebuild the C compiler first if you know it has been updated (which normally doesn't happen more often than once per year). > Apparently, something in the "make > world" process used the PRINTER env var as a groff > output type! Yep, this one is a real show-stopper! -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 08:56:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA20298 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 08:56:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA20289; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 08:56:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id KAA27932; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 10:56:05 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610311656.KAA27932@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Request to add this to FAQ re: swap space To: gpalmer@freebsd.org (Gary Palmer) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 10:56:05 -0600 (CST) Cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com, dyson@freebsd.org, dtc@scrooge.ee.swin.oz.au, current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <1670.846743528@orion.webspan.net> from "Gary Palmer" at Oct 31, 96 01:32:08 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Joe Greco wrote in message ID > <199610291827.MAA24642@brasil.moneng.mei.com>: > > I am still waiting to hear how to get 256MB RAM on a motherboard reliably. > > :-) > > Since our news box here has 256Mb, it's easy :-) 4 64Mb SIMMS on a > Tyan Titan Pro P6 motherboard work fine... > > > I would really like to get 512MB RAM on one of these boards. > > I want to get 512Mb RAM in our news box, but I doubt I will *sigh* If > nothing else, I think the kernel needs tweeks when you go to that size > (David?) You will want to increase your maximum process size... #options "MAXDSIZ=(256UL*1024*1024)" options "MAXDSIZ=268435456UL" #options "DFLDSIZ=(192UL*1024*1024)" options "DFLDSIZ=201326592UL" You probably want to raise DK_NDRIVE and a few other "less important but mildly annoying" parameters as well, such as MSG_BSIZE. I usually stick sysctl -w kern.update=300 > /dev/null in /etc/rc.local. Much of the rest should be obvious. ... JG From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 09:27:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA22344 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 09:27:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from DNS.Lamb.net (root@DNS.Lamb.net [206.169.44.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA22315; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 09:27:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from Gatekeeper.Lamb.net (ulf@Gatekeeper.Lamb.net [206.169.44.2]) by DNS.Lamb.net (8.8.2/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA12623; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 09:21:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from ulf@localhost) by Gatekeeper.Lamb.net (8.8.2/8.7.6) id JAA11337; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 09:18:47 -0800 (PST) From: "Ulf Zimmermann" Message-Id: <961031091847.ZM11335@Gatekeeper.Lamb.net> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 09:18:47 -0800 In-Reply-To: hm@kts.org (Hellmuth Michaelis) "Re: Any ISDN-BRI cards work under FreeBSD?" (Oct 31, 4:19pm) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0b.514 14may96) To: hm@kts.org, gjennejohn@frt.dec.com Subject: Re: Any ISDN-BRI cards work under FreeBSD? Cc: questions@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG, isdn@muc.ditec.de MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Oct 31, 4:19pm, Hellmuth Michaelis wrote: > Subject: Re: Any ISDN-BRI cards work under FreeBSD? > > > In Germany and other parts of Europe, the Teles S0 and compatible > > > boards are supported. They *should* work in the US > > They will not work in the US, simply because in Europe the NT is supplied > by the Telecom's whereas in the US the NT has to be supplied by the user > or by the device; the "user" interface in Europe is the S0 bus, in the > US it is the Uk0 interface. A Teles bought in Europe has a S0 interface. > > There is a chance to get a Teles working in the US by also carrying an > NT for every card with you, but i doubt this setup will work because of > timing differences in the US. > > hellmuth > -- > Hellmuth Michaelis hm@kts.org Hamburg, Europe > (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nstall BSD ? >-- End of excerpt from Hellmuth Michaelis Teles has US version of the cards. See at: http://teles.winterlan.net/ They also have the domain teles-usa.com, but have no web server there yet. -- Ulf. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-769-2936 Lamb Art Internet Services | http://www.Lamb.net/ | http://www.Alameda.net From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 09:41:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA23517 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 09:41:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA23505; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 09:41:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id LAA28025; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:40:56 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610311740.LAA28025@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Request to add this to FAQ re: swap space To: gpalmer@freebsd.org (Gary Palmer) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:40:56 -0600 (CST) Cc: rv@groa.uct.ac.za, current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3932.846746988@orion.webspan.net> from "Gary Palmer" at Oct 31, 96 02:29:48 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (Bearing in mind that I am not a memory expert and I have learned more this summer about memory than I did in the last five years... Rod is in a much better explanation to explain some of this as he has data books and real engineering knowledge of the subject) > Joe Greco wrote in message ID > <199610301517.JAA25891@brasil.moneng.mei.com>: > > However, at about $2000 per 64MB SIMM module, this is an expensive > > solution. > > Umm? When was that a price? RAM price now says that you should be able > to get a 60ns 16x36 72pin SIMM for a lot less (under $1k I'd have > thought) Yes, and I can still get 4x36's for ~$100.... so logically a 16x36 should be ~$500. You can actually get them for around that price. However, the ASUS manual specifies a maximum chip count of (I believe) 24, and the units you will get for this price WILL have 36 chips. Now the rest is mostly "IIRC"... I may not, exactly, because we actually tried a LOT of things - I will concentrate mostly on what did. ASUS P/E-P55T2P4D board: I believe that Curt and I found some 16-chip 32MB SIMM modules, and we tried loading the board up with 8 of them, for 256MB (the golden goal). It worked but suffered memory (NMI) problems on a daily basis. We removed four, and it worked great. "S***". We started looking for bad SIMM's, testing them on a real SIMM tester. No faults. We had also heard about "magic 36-chip SIMM" modules that were supposedly used by ASUS themselves and ASUS said they worked fine. I believe that these are the golden $2000 SIMM modules we are currently using. I won't go into the 9-chip SIMM's we toyed with, or any of the other less-than-successful attempts.. etc... If ANYONE has a source for RAM that REALLY works .. :-) ... JG From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 10:31:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA26274 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 10:31:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA26269 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 10:31:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA25640; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:23:33 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610311823.LAA25640@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: scrappy@ki.net (Marc G. Fournier) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:23:32 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, wollman@lcs.mit.edu, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Marc G. Fournier" at Oct 31, 96 01:05:30 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > He is also the principle author (apparently) of IMAP4, a highly > > desirable piece of software for anyone with a 1995 or later mail > > client. > Agreed...which is why I brought this whole discussion into here... > > From what Mark has said, about the only way I can think of for > getting this *obvious* security bug fixed is to, either: [ ... ] > IMHO...what having .lock locking capabilities in IMAP4 is > doing is encouraging system administrators to use NFS mounted mail > spools, instead of *teaching* system administrators to *not* setup > their systems that way... Or publicize the denial of service attack in the news groups where IMAP4 is discussed and hope someone uses it. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 10:36:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA26704 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 10:36:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA26699; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 10:36:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA25654; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:29:55 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610311829.LAA25654@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:29:55 -0700 (MST) Cc: gpalmer@FreeBSD.org, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, terry@lambert.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de, roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, current@FreeBSD.org, scrappy@ki.net In-Reply-To: from "Mark Crispin" at Oct 30, 96 10:59:22 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Some people who have > > a mad love for /usr/bin/mail want /var/mail NFS mounted from the mail > > box to the shell box. I tell them to use fetchmail. Problem solved. > > I do not have the option of doing this. > > Suppose The Very Big Corporation of America offered you a megabuck or two for > FreeBSD development -- but only if you made NFS-mounted mail worked, because > TVBCA insists upon it. How hard will you stick to your principles? Very hard. But then I understand NFS locking well enough to implement it (I implemented the fcntl() interfaces for server locking on FreeBSD). I suspect Andrew (the guy who wrote the first publically available rpc.statd and rpc.lockd) does too. I suspect Jordan might as well, even though he didn't complete the integration job to bring my changes into the tree and todo list management in rpc.lockd for descriptor coelescing. It's easy to stick to your principles when you can make them work. > > To be perfectly honest, I don't see the problem here ... make the > > locking method an option, just like elm does. No more problem. > > What about my users who thank me for *NOT* doing this, because they find Elm's > options too confusing? I can't believe elm is still that popular (even though it's *my* personal favorite). I have to say this has got to be a reductio ad absurdum argument -- a straw man. It's possible to test the failure case during config by compiling up a small test program. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 10:37:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA26735 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 10:37:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA26730 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 10:37:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA25666; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:31:38 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610311831.LAA25666@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: michaelh@cet.co.jp (Michael Hancock) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:31:38 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, dubois@primate.wisc.edu, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Michael Hancock" at Oct 31, 96 08:55:58 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Also, perhaps I missed it in this discussion, but just what *is* > > > the security problem WRT having /var/mail set to 1777? > > > > % id > > uid=501(terry) gid=20(staff) groups=20(staff), 0(wheel), 552(ncvs) > > % touch /var/mail/dubois > > % chmod 644 !$ > > % ls -l !$ > > -rw-r--r-- 1 terry wheel 0 Oct 30 17:02 /var/mail/dubois > > % mail -s "pay me a dollar to unlock your mail" dubois < /dev/null > > Null message body; hope that's ok > > % > > The work around is to use mailer readers that truncate instead of remove > the file when all messages have been deleted or moved. 1) What if dubois never got any mail before that? 2) If we are specifying mail reader behaviour, we can force the fcntl() locking to work as well... which has the advantage of being a more general soloution anyway. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 10:47:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA27292 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 10:47:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA27281 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 10:47:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id MAA28303; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:44:46 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610311844.MAA28303@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:44:46 -0600 (CST) Cc: scrappy@ki.net, terry@lambert.org, wollman@lcs.mit.edu, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610311823.LAA25640@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Oct 31, 96 11:23:32 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > He is also the principle author (apparently) of IMAP4, a highly > > > desirable piece of software for anyone with a 1995 or later mail > > > client. > > Agreed...which is why I brought this whole discussion into here... > > > > From what Mark has said, about the only way I can think of for > > getting this *obvious* security bug fixed is to, either: > > [ ... ] > > > IMHO...what having .lock locking capabilities in IMAP4 is > > doing is encouraging system administrators to use NFS mounted mail > > spools, instead of *teaching* system administrators to *not* setup > > their systems that way... > > Or publicize the denial of service attack in the news groups where > IMAP4 is discussed and hope someone uses it. TERRRY! That is perfectly irresponsible :-) As tempting as it may be, and even though I do not believe in security through obscurity as a first line of defense, I do believe that there is some value to security through obscurity. We would be doing less-sophisticated operating systems a great disservice. ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/546-7968 From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 10:55:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA27889 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 10:55:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA27882 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 10:55:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA25733; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:46:46 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610311846.LAA25733@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: 2.1.5r -> current upgrade To: michaelv@MindBender.serv.net (Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:46:46 -0700 (MST) Cc: imp@village.org, aflundi@lundin.abq.nm.us, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610310507.VAA06709@MindBender.serv.net> from "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" at Oct 30, 96 09:07:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >On my 486DX2/66 + VLB Ultrastor controller + 32M it is between 9 and > >10 hours. I'd really like to see an 82 minute make world, but I don't > >have the $6k it takes to get the hardware to do that :-(. > > I've done make world (on NetBSD) in 81 minutes on my single > P6-200. :-) It doesn't take $6K... You forgot about all the crystal tuning needed to make it take that extra minute... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 11:01:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA28090 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:01:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA28084; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:01:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailbox.mcs.com (Mailbox.mcs.com [192.160.127.87]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id MAA02754; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:58:20 -0600 (CST) Received: by mailbox.mcs.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.15) id ; Thu, 31 Oct 96 12:58 CST Received: (from karl@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.Beta.6/8.8.Beta.3) id MAA16345; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:58:04 -0600 (CST) From: Karl Denninger Message-Id: <199610311858.MAA16345@Mars.mcs.net> Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:58:03 -0600 (CST) Cc: MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU, gpalmer@FreeBSD.org, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, terry@lambert.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de, roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, current@FreeBSD.org, scrappy@ki.net In-Reply-To: <199610311829.LAA25654@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Oct 31, 96 11:29:55 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > To be perfectly honest, I don't see the problem here ... make the > > > locking method an option, just like elm does. No more problem. > > > > What about my users who thank me for *NOT* doing this, because they find Elm's > > options too confusing? > > I can't believe elm is still that popular (even though it's *my* personal > favorite). I have to say this has got to be a reductio ad absurdum > argument -- a straw man. It's possible to test the failure case during > config by compiling up a small test program. > > > Terry Lambert ELM is incredibly popular. About half our user base prefers it, and we have a LARGE user base. If I break something in elm on our ISP, I hear about it in minutes if not faster. Then again, its *MY* preferred user agent as well. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - The Finest Internet Connectivity http://www.mcs.net/~karl | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | 23 Analog Prefixes, 13 ISDN, Web servers $75/mo Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| Email to "info@mcs.net" WWW: http://www.mcs.net/ Fax: [+1 312 248-9865] | 2 FULL DS-3 Internet links; 400Mbps B/W Internal From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 11:04:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA28238 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:04:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA28230; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:04:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA25769; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:56:39 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610311856.LAA25769@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Any ISDN-BRI cards work under FreeBSD? To: kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:56:39 -0700 (MST) Cc: gjennejohn@frt.dec.com, questions@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, isdn@muc.ditec.de In-Reply-To: <199610311454.PAA05342@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> from "Christoph Kukulies" at Oct 31, 96 03:54:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > done it yet. They currently only run single channel connections (you > > > can have two different connections to different destinations). The > > > theoretical maximum throughput is 8 kB/s (64,000 bps), which is > > > somewhat less than the theoretical maximum of the 115.2 kbps lines > > > (11.52 kB/s). > > Why do you divide by 8 in the one case and by 10 in the other? My guesses: 8) 8*8k = 64k; conversion is for sync framing 10) 1 start + 8bits + 1 stop = 10bits; conversion is for async framing A more interesting question might be 64k + 64k = 128k. 128k != 115.2k. Here the answer is that the max PC port rate is 115.2k (unless you get a decent [non-Intel] UART serial board or buy a card from Dennis). So the conversion from sync to async is internal to the device, and is limited by the bit rate of the device-to-computer interface. This is the general problem with externally interfaced serial devices. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 11:08:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA28555 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:08:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA28548; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:08:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA25818; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:03:13 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610311903.MAA25818@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: karl@Mcs.Net (Karl Denninger) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:03:13 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU, gpalmer@FreeBSD.org, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, j@uriah.heep.sax.de, roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, current@FreeBSD.org, scrappy@ki.net In-Reply-To: <199610311858.MAA16345@Mars.mcs.net> from "Karl Denninger" at Oct 31, 96 12:58:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > What about my users who thank me for *NOT* doing this, because > > > they find Elm's options too confusing? > > > > I can't believe elm is still that popular (even though it's *my* personal > > favorite). I have to say this has got to be a reductio ad absurdum > > argument -- a straw man. It's possible to test the failure case during > > config by compiling up a small test program. > > ELM is incredibly popular. About half our user base prefers it, and we > have a LARGE user base. > > If I break something in elm on our ISP, I hear about it in minutes if not > faster. Then again, its *MY* preferred user agent as well. I am not suggesting anything which would break elm. I am suggesting that the appeal to "my users who thank me for *NOT* doing this" is a strawman. If done correctly, the user never sees the process. I think it is generally agreed that users complain when things break, and remain silent when things work. If they didn't we would have to pick a strategy other than 'making things work' to reduce the amount of phone traffic we have to hire people to handle. I have *never*, in 12 years, gotten a support call over something working. YMMV. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 11:14:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA28904 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:14:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA28892; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:14:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA04570 (5.65c/IDA-1.5); Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:15:39 -0700 Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id MAA28351; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:59:33 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610311859.MAA28351@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:59:32 -0600 (CST) Cc: MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU, gpalmer@FreeBSD.org, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, terry@lambert.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de, roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, current@FreeBSD.org, scrappy@ki.net In-Reply-To: <199610311829.LAA25654@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Oct 31, 96 11:29:55 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > To be perfectly honest, I don't see the problem here ... make the > > > locking method an option, just like elm does. No more problem. > > > > What about my users who thank me for *NOT* doing this, because they find Elm's > > options too confusing? Well, Crispin can add several of us to the list of users who thank him for being a total jerk BECAUSE he does not do this. Elm suffers because it doesn't (or at least didn't, since I have not looked recently) attempt to do any tests to try to figure out reasonable defaults. > I can't believe elm is still that popular (even though it's *my* personal > favorite). I have to say this has got to be a reductio ad absurdum > argument -- a straw man. It's possible to test the failure case during > config by compiling up a small test program. Crispin's argument is very mildly valid: if you have a system built to not do .lock style locking, and then through some magic changes you decide to NFS mount off a Sun server, you are then at risk. That is true. Crispin has danced around the issue of "what happens to all the other local mail agents that also break"... i.e. the admin will have LOTS more problems to worry about than just IMAP4. Crispin has totally ignored the possibility of stat("/var/mail") as a very accurate method of determining the information he needs to know at run time, effectively addressing his concern. And Crispin - in typical bull headed style - has argued that he must do this in order to avoid complaints from users. He appears to have forgotten that bogus warnings and errors scare new users and generated the complaint that started this thread. Well I think we should all complain when we see this cryptic mail box locking message come up. (It might even not be too hard to automate it so that Crispin receives an automated complaint every time this error message pops up. Not that I would ever do THAT!) ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/546-7968 From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 11:21:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA29381 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:21:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA29364 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:21:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id UAA05847; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 20:21:15 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id UAA04540; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 20:21:15 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id TAA16867; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 19:58:39 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610311858.TAA16867@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Any ISDN-BRI cards work under FreeBSD? To: current@freebsd.org, isdn@muc.ditec.de Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 19:58:39 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199610311454.PAA05342@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> from Christoph Kukulies at "Oct 31, 96 03:54:32 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Christoph Kukulies wrote: > > > In Germany and other parts of Europe, the Teles S0 and compatible > > > boards are supported. They *should* work in the US, though nobody's > > I'd really be surprised if these cards would work at 56Kb/s and > if they's connect physically. The 56/64 is only one frame bit that's being used differently (not for the data channels in the US). AFAIK, the raw frames are similar, and the Teles cards are probably dumb enough :) to not see the difference anyway. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 11:22:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA29607 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:22:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA29356 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:21:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id UAA05839; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 20:21:13 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id UAA04539; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 20:21:13 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id TAA16857; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 19:57:13 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610311857.TAA16857@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Any ISDN-BRI cards work under FreeBSD? To: current@FreeBSD.org, isdn@muc.ditec.de Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 19:57:13 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <9610311240.AA12672@cssmuc.frt.dec.com> from "garyj@frt.dec.com" at "Oct 31, 96 01:40:07 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As garyj@frt.dec.com wrote: > I'm going to be in California from Nov 7 til Nov 28 and would be more > than willing to bring a pair of (ISA) cards from Germany and try to get the > bisdn code working in the US. I already asked Jordan, but he can't > accomodate me. Is there anyone in the Bay Area who has ISDN and a pair > of boxes who'd be willing to make them available for this ? Don't forget to carry an NT with you. I think in the US, unlike Europe, NTs are not owned by the Telco's and thus are often integrated into the peripherals. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 12:08:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA03516 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:08:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA03495 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:08:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA14511 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 21:08:40 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id VAA03982 for current@FreeBSD.org; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 21:08:11 +0100 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.2/keltia-uucp-2.9) id TAA14373; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 19:28:12 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199610311828.TAA14373@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 19:28:12 +0100 From: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) To: current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: 2.1.5r -> current upgrade References: <199610301317.GAA13054@lundin.abq.nm.us> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.48.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT ctm#2632 In-Reply-To: ; from Warner Losh on Oct 30, 1996 16:29:10 -0700 Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Warner Losh: > On my 486DX2/66 + VLB Ultrastor controller + 32M it is between 9 and > 10 hours. I'd really like to see an 82 minute make world, but I don't I was seeing about 9h50 on my 486DX33 + 32 MB + Buslogic 747S EISA. I'm now at less than 4 hours on my (now upgraded) 486DX4/100 + 32 MB + a faster drive and /usr/src & /usr/obj on different SCSI controllers (the other one is an AHA-1740A). Rebuilding man page indexes -------------------------------------------------------------- cd /usr/src/share/man && make makedb makewhatis /usr/share/man -------------------------------------------------------------- make world completed on Sun Oct 27 23:54:01 MET 1996 -------------------------------------------------------------- 14438.87 real 9505.87 user 1967.62 sys Sun Oct 27 23:54:02 MET 1996 -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 2.2-CURRENT #26: Sun Oct 27 19:39:11 MET 1996 From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 12:09:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA03591 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:09:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost2.cac.washington.edu (mailhost2.cac.washington.edu [140.142.33.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA03586; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:09:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM (UW-Gateway.Panda.COM [192.107.14.65]) by mailhost2.cac.washington.edu (8.8.2+UW96.10/8.8.2+UW96.10) with SMTP id MAA19423; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:09:08 -0800 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:59:21 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: Terry Lambert cc: gpalmer@FreeBSD.org, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, j@uriah.heep.sax.de, roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, current@FreeBSD.org, scrappy@ki.net In-Reply-To: <199610311829.LAA25654@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:29:55 -0700 (MST), Terry Lambert wrote: > It's possible to test the failure case during > config by compiling up a small test program. How do you test the failure case during config for a mailbox accessed in the future? Please explain how config will know what sort of systems you will access over NFS in the future. The majority of UNIX systems in the world do not use system call locking. They use lock files. Some BSD variants once used system call locking, but gave up because of the need to support NFS. Please explain how FreeBSD, perhaps the only system in the world that still uses system call locking, is going to get the world to convert. Once again, this issue is not about whether or not my code supports system call locking. It does. Already. And it has for many years. This issue is about whether or not my code should try to use lock files too, and what should happen if it can't. There are only two choices: 1) give a warning message, which is annoying if you are a FreeBSD system, everything is on the FreeBSD system, and you know that it is safe not to bother with lock files. 2) don't give a warning message, which on 99% of the systems in the world means that locking has failed for real and the user is vulnerable to data corruption. 99% is conservative. FreeBSD is much less than 1% of the UNIX market. Give me one good reason why I should let 1% of the market tell me that I should do something that puts 99% of the market at risk. Give me one good reason why, given that you've been told how to take the risk by building it to quell the warning, you are still bothering me. From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 12:21:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA04517 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:21:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from trout.mt.sri.com (trout.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.104]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA04510 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:21:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by trout.mt.sri.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id NAA00469; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:21:26 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:21:26 -0700 (MST) From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199610312021.NAA00469@trout.mt.sri.com> To: current@FreeBSD.org, current@RreeBSD.org Subject: New Intel EtherExpress Pro/10 driver Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Path: helena.MT.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news.rediris.es!sanson.dit.upm.es!ioda!jmrueda From: jmrueda@diatel.upm.es (Javier Martin Rueda ) Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc Subject: Announcing new beta driver for Intel EtherExpress pro/10 network card Date: 30 Oct 1996 13:40:30 GMT Organization: Dpt. Ing. Telematica Lines: 20 Message-ID: <557lse$avj@sanson.dit.upm.es> NNTP-Posting-Host: ioda.diatel.upm.es Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Hi. I finally got upset of not being able to use my office PC with FreeBSD, just because it had an Intel EtherExpress Pro/10 network card, and decided to write a device driver for it. The result is now available for use by anyone. :-) I've done the work under FreeBSD 2.1.5-RELEASE, and I don't know yet if it can be used as is on newer or older releases, but, if necessary, I will adapt it to 2.2 when time allows. I've placed the driver, and a small README file in: ftp://ftp.diatel.upm.es/incoming/jmrueda2/if_ex-961030.tar.gz The driver seems to work well, but I'd appretiate that other people test it, and that, if possible, some specialist guru in network device drivers have a look at the code, just in case I messed something up. I wrote the driver based on Intel's documentation, and also got some insight from various other FreeBSD network device drivers, Linux' eepro device driver, and the 4.4BSD book from Addison-Wesley. From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 12:39:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA05805 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:39:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from fullfeed.msn.fullfeed.com (fullfeed.msn.fullfeed.com [199.184.182.42]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA05800 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:39:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com by fullfeed.msn.fullfeed.com (8.6.9/MSN-1.4) id OAA08388; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 14:39:35 -0600 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id OAA11354; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 14:09:42 -0600 Received: (jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id UAA03047; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 20:39:04 GMT Message-Id: <199610312039.UAA03047@right.PCS> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 14:39:04 -0600 From: jlemon@americantv.com (Jonathan Lemon) To: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 2.1.5r -> current upgrade References: <199610301317.GAA13054@lundin.abq.nm.us> <199610311828.TAA14373@keltia.freenix.fr> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.48.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199610311828.TAA14373@keltia.freenix.fr>; from Ollivier Robert on Oct 31, 1996 19:28:12 +0100 Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Ollivier Robert writes: > According to Warner Losh: > > On my 486DX2/66 + VLB Ultrastor controller + 32M it is between 9 and > > 10 hours. I'd really like to see an 82 minute make world, but I don't > > I was seeing about 9h50 on my 486DX33 + 32 MB + Buslogic 747S EISA. I'm > now at less than 4 hours on my (now upgraded) 486DX4/100 + 32 MB + a faster > drive and /usr/src & /usr/obj on different SCSI controllers (the other one > is an AHA-1740A). Does this mean that the biggest performance boost comes from adding an additional controller? Hm. I was thinking my poor little DX2/66 was mainly CPU bound. I'll have to try putting in a spare 1542 into my EISA machine and seeing if that makes a difference. -- Jonathan From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 12:58:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA07142 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:58:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from quagmire.ki.net (root@quagmire.ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA07123 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:58:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by quagmire.ki.net (8.8.2/8.7.5) with SMTP id PAA09984; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:56:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:56:18 -0500 (EST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Terry Lambert cc: wollman@lcs.mit.edu, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: <199610311823.LAA25640@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 31 Oct 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > He is also the principle author (apparently) of IMAP4, a highly > > > desirable piece of software for anyone with a 1995 or later mail > > > client. > > Agreed...which is why I brought this whole discussion into here... > > > > From what Mark has said, about the only way I can think of for > > getting this *obvious* security bug fixed is to, either: > > [ ... ] > > > IMHO...what having .lock locking capabilities in IMAP4 is > > doing is encouraging system administrators to use NFS mounted mail > > spools, instead of *teaching* system administrators to *not* setup > > their systems that way... > > Or publicize the denial of service attack in the news groups where > IMAP4 is discussed and hope someone uses it. > Very nasty :) Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 13:01:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA07318 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:01:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA07312 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:01:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA06191; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:01:36 -0800 (PST) To: Nate Williams cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New Intel EtherExpress Pro/10 driver In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:21:26 MST." <199610312021.NAA00469@trout.mt.sri.com> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:01:36 -0800 Message-ID: <6189.846795696@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I think we need this in both branches. The driver in -stable and -current is so broken that nothing jmrueda could do will have made it any worse. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 13:09:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA07615 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:09:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA07608; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:09:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA26174; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:59:28 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610312059.NAA26174@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: MRC@Panda.COM (Mark Crispin) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:59:28 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, gpalmer@FreeBSD.org, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, j@uriah.heep.sax.de, roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, current@FreeBSD.org, scrappy@ki.net In-Reply-To: from "Mark Crispin" at Oct 31, 96 11:59:21 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:29:55 -0700 (MST), Terry Lambert wrote: > > It's possible to test the failure case during > > config by compiling up a small test program. > > How do you test the failure case during config for a mailbox accessed in the > future? Well, my personal opinion is that it should be runtime, not build-time, configured. Failing that, you could look at /var/mail with stat and look at st_dev to see if it was NFS and the permissions to see if they will let your users create .lock files successfully. You may not be able to know that fcntl() *will* work, but you can know .lock files *won't* work. > Please explain how config will know what sort of systems you will access over > NFS in the future. The same way your config knows that the remotely mounted /var/mail that will be accessed in the future is mode 1777. 8^). Again, I would prefer runtime configuration. If nothing else, because I use AMD to relocate my mail files to user accounts, and some are local and some are NFS mounted. > The majority of UNIX systems in the world do not use system call locking. > They use lock files. Some BSD variants once used system call locking, but > gave up because of the need to support NFS. > > Please explain how FreeBSD, perhaps the only system in the world that still > uses system call locking, is going to get the world to convert. By publicising the fact that fcntl and flock locking are available on all POSIX conformant and POSIX compliant systems, and that POSIX strictly mandates how an FS must act, and NFS is an FS? > Once again, this issue is not about whether or not my code supports system > call locking. It does. Already. And it has for many years. > > This issue is about whether or not my code should try to use lock files too, > and what should happen if it can't. There are only two choices: > 1) give a warning message, which is annoying if you are a FreeBSD > system, everything is on the FreeBSD system, and you know that it > is safe not to bother with lock files. > 2) don't give a warning message, which on 99% of the systems in the > world means that locking has failed for real and the user is > vulnerable to data corruption. > > 99% is conservative. FreeBSD is much less than 1% of the UNIX market. Actually the question is where there will be a BSD4.4-Lite specific #ifdef for the default FreeBSD configuration to avoid the warning so that we don't have to hack around the warning using "port" code. Your answer was that you weren't going to put in a BSD4.4-Lite specific #ifdef because you thought that BSD should be dragged back into the dark ages of non-working POSIX mandated system calls because everyone else was still back there. Frankly, you might as well ask the BSD community to also remove RFC 1323 and RFC 1644 "Transaction TCP" support because most older systems fail to implement TCP/IP option negotiation in compliance with the non extended standards. After all, having your NFS mount of your mail spool lock up your mail program during use has to be much worse than the lock failure (which only causes damage in the rare conflict case instead of all the time, like an NFS lockup would). > Give me one good reason why I should let 1% of the market tell me that I > should do something that puts 99% of the market at risk. Because fcntl() should work, and removing the incentive to fix fcntl() is not an effective means of moving forward. The same reason that RFC 1323 and 1644 are "on" by default in BSD 4.4: to make people with non-standards-compliant implementations fix them instead of forcing applications vendors (like yourself) to live without. > Give me one good reason why, given that you've been told how to take > the risk by building it to quell the warning, you are still bothering > me. Because the program should build out of the box for the most correct configuration for the system it is being built for. For BSD systems, this means not putting out the warning as a result of an intentional system configuration by the vendor (the dfault mode of the mail directory). Alternately, your install should check the mode and ask if you want to change the mode (not recommended, since the directory is a system component) or disable the warning (recommended; we must assume the vendor set the modes intentionally, and changing the mode might break other software). Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 13:11:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA07775 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:11:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.230.177]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA07764; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:11:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA07399; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:11:35 +0100 (MET) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Nate Williams , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New Intel EtherExpress Pro/10 driver In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:01:36 PST." <6189.846795696@time.cdrom.com> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:11:34 +0100 Message-ID: <7397.846796294@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <6189.846795696@time.cdrom.com>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: >I think we need this in both branches. The driver in -stable and >-current is so broken that nothing jmrueda could do will have made it >any worse. :-) Absolutely. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 13:18:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA08099 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:18:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from peedub.gj.org (newpc.muc.ditec.de [194.120.126.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA08094 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:18:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from peedub.gj.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by peedub.gj.org (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA09906; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:16:07 GMT Message-Id: <199610312216.WAA09906@peedub.gj.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.7 5/3/96 To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: current@freebsd.org, isdn@muc.ditec.de Subject: Re: Any ISDN-BRI cards work under FreeBSD? Reply-To: Gary Jennejohn In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 31 Oct 1996 19:57:13 +0100." <199610311857.TAA16857@uriah.heep.sax.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:16:07 +0000 From: Gary Jennejohn Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch writes: >As garyj@frt.dec.com wrote: > >> I'm going to be in California from Nov 7 til Nov 28 and would be more >> than willing to bring a pair of (ISA) cards from Germany and try to get the >> bisdn code working in the US. I already asked Jordan, but he can't >> accomodate me. Is there anyone in the Bay Area who has ISDN and a pair >> of boxes who'd be willing to make them available for this ? > >Don't forget to carry an NT with you. I think in the US, unlike >Europe, NTs are not owned by the Telco's and thus are often integrated >into the peripherals. > yeah, Hellmuth Michaelis pointed this out in no uncertain terms ! I guess it won't be practical, so I hereby retract my request. --- Gary Jennejohn Home - Gary.Jennejohn@munich.netsurf.de Work - gjennejohn@frt.dec.com From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 13:53:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA10729 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:53:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA10719; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:53:07 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199610312153.NAA10719@freefall.freebsd.org> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Nate Williams , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New Intel EtherExpress Pro/10 driver In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:01:36 PST." <6189.846795696@time.cdrom.com> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:53:06 -0800 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I think we need this in both branches. The driver in -stable and >-current is so broken that nothing jmrueda could do will have made it >any worse. :-) > > Jordan Unfortunately, this doesn't solve the ix driver problem. The Intel EtherExpress and the EtherExpress Pro are two totally different cards. -- Justin T. Gibbs =========================================== FreeBSD: Turning PCs into workstations =========================================== From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 13:58:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA11061 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:58:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA11054 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:58:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA26334; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 14:50:45 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610312150.OAA26334@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com (Joe Greco) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 14:50:45 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, scrappy@ki.net, wollman@lcs.mit.edu, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610311844.MAA28303@brasil.moneng.mei.com> from "Joe Greco" at Oct 31, 96 12:44:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Or publicize the denial of service attack in the news groups where > > IMAP4 is discussed and hope someone uses it. > > TERRRY! That is perfectly irresponsible :-) > > As tempting as it may be, and even though I do not believe in security > through obscurity as a first line of defense, I do believe that there > is some value to security through obscurity. > > We would be doing less-sophisticated operating systems a great disservice. As they are currently convincing Mark to do BSD the disservice of kludging around a failure of other platforms to supply a working, documented, system service? It's not like this information isn't well known to hackers anyway. What's needed is to *also* inform the "nervous nellie" managers who buy these systems so that they whine about the situation to the vendors and the problem gets fixed. I see very little difference between this and defaulting RFC 1323 and RFC 1644 on to falg broken stack implementations, in no uncertain terms. What's the logical difference between promoting a policy to fix the networking system calls, and promoting a policy to fix the fcntl() system call? I'm confused... At the very least, we should lobby for a CERT advisory for a denial of service attack based on 1777 permissions so that everyone else's mailspool permissions change as well: then it will be *impossible* to argue ".lock works on other platforms". If we can't fix the problem, at least we can invalidate the argument that perpetuates the situation of the problem "not being bad enough to fix". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 14:09:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA11735 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 14:09:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost1.cac.washington.edu (mailhost1.cac.washington.edu [140.142.32.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA11729; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 14:09:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM (UW-Gateway.Panda.COM [192.107.14.65]) by mailhost1.cac.washington.edu (8.8.2+UW96.10/8.8.2+UW96.10) with SMTP id OAA11631; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 14:09:13 -0800 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:18:41 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: Terry Lambert cc: terry@lambert.org, gpalmer@FreeBSD.org, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, j@uriah.heep.sax.de, roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, current@FreeBSD.org, scrappy@ki.net In-Reply-To: <199610312059.NAA26174@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:59:28 -0700 (MST), Terry Lambert wrote: > Well, my personal opinion is that it should be runtime, not build-time, > configured. Great!!!!!! This is real progress here! You're seeing it my way. > Failing that, you could look at /var/mail with stat and look at st_dev > to see if it was NFS Alas!! Been there, done that. Using st_dev to check for NFS isn't portable. There's no portable way to check for NFS on BSD systems. On SVR4, you could do ustat and check f_tinode, but SUN broke that in Solaris 2.5. > and the permissions to see if they will let your > users create .lock files successfully. Of course, you do this on a file-by-file basis, since it may work in some directories but not others (not all mail is on /var/mail). Or, you could just try to create the .lock file and see what happens. OK, we're still on the same track. > You may not be able to know that fcntl() *will* work, but you can know > .lock files *won't* work. So, what do we do now? We've determined that .lock files won't work. We no longer have any guidance from run time tests. We have to choose a policy from here. What are our choices? 1) Error: "Lock failed, mailbox open aborted" 2) Warning: "Lock failed, proceeding as if locked" 3) Ignore the condition entirely. Policy (1) is safe, but is probably unacceptable for almost everyone. It is certainly unacceptable to FreeBSD users; it is a perfectly normal condition for .lock files to fail. Policy (2) is potentially dangerous, but it lets the user see her mail and she is alerted that there may be a problem. This may or may not be right for FreeBSD users, depending upon whether or not they are part of an NFS cluster. Policy (3) is extremely dangerous unless you know that .lock files are never needed. This is probably right for FreeBSD users who never use NFS, and know they will never do so. I distribute the software with policy (2), and a build-time conditional to set policy (3). > > Please explain how config will know what sort of systems you will access > > over NFS in the future. > The same way your config knows that the remotely mounted /var/mail that > will be accessed in the future is mode 1777. 8^). In other words, it doesn't. The only thing it can do is be prepared. Good Boy Scout software it is, yessiree. Apply every possible lock I can, that's the trick. > Again, I would prefer runtime configuration. If nothing else, because > I use AMD to relocate my mail files to user accounts, and some are local > and some are NFS mounted. This is EXACTLY what I'm doing for you, sir!! Now, do you have some magic run time test that could lead me to discriminate between the two cases: 1) system call locking was the right thing, don't worry. 2) you really needed the .lock file, and the fool who set up the system did so in a way that you don't have privileges to lock the mail file. If you did, I'd be happier than a pig in mud. About 6 years ago, a VAX BSD guru assured me that "turn off the annoying message; if .lock file locking fails, system call locking is the right thing, don't worry." I made the mistake of believing him. I subsequently have YEARS of unhappy experience with systems that use setgid access to the mail spool. This is a particularly nasty problem, since the poor guys don't know that they have a problem for months until bad luck strikes and mail delivery happens while their mailbox is being rewritten. And, for a while, they put it down as a random glitch or user goof, until a long-term continuous patten comes up. And when they finally ask for help, they are VERY upset, and even more upset to learn that the condition was detected but they were never told about it. It is going to take a lot more than flaming to get me to trust the word of BSD folks again. You're going to have to show me what I can do to make things any better for you without reintroducing this problem in the remaining 99% of the market. > > Please explain how FreeBSD, perhaps the only system in the world that > > still uses system call locking, is going to get the world to convert. > By publicising the fact that fcntl and flock locking are available on > all POSIX conformant and POSIX compliant systems, and that POSIX > strictly mandates how an FS must act, and NFS is an FS? Too many NFS clusters have had cluster-wide shutdowns from lockd/statd. I am unaware of any POSIX requirement that "mail spool locking must be done using fcntl() and must not be done by using .lock files". If there is such a requirement, it's being widely ignored out there. Out of 3 dozen UNIX variants that I support, only two are believed to have mail delivery programs that use fcntl() or flock(). > Actually the question is where there will be a BSD4.4-Lite specific #ifdef > for the default FreeBSD configuration to avoid the warning so that we > don't have to hack around the warning using "port" code. Sigh. How many times did I tell you that the conditional is already there? For the benefit of the lazy, it's IGNORE_LOCK_EACCES_ERRORS. So, assuming you still use the neb port, it's make neb -DIGNORE_LOCK_EACCES_ERRORS This is not going to be the default, because of the reasons with NFS outlined above. > fcntl() should work, and removing the incentive to fix fcntl() > is not an effective means of moving forward. I'll back off a bit, and say that in theory it is possible that fcntl() over NFS (lockd/statd) may somehow be made to work. I have yet to see a system where it has. Recently: The guys at IBM swore on a stack of Bibles that it would work in AIX, and backed up their word with an offer of free RS/6000s if it didn't work. Thanks for the free machines, guys. They guys at SUN swore up and down that they got it working on Solaris 2.5. Well, the field results are in. It doesn't work. Now they're saying 2.6, for sure. At least one of my spys inside SUN is wagering with me that it won't. Now, you guys may be smarter than the guys at IBM and SUN, and will come up with fcntl()/lockd/statd that works for everyone. That would be great news, and you would save the world. By the way, in terms of saving the world, here's a few more items: I hope that you'll fix the bug in fcntl() that if you have a lock on a file, and then lock the same file on a different file designator in the same process, the first lock is blown away. This apparently happens even if the locks are owned by different threads in the same process; locks are apparently recorded in a per-process inode table. Oh, and there's also the flock() bug that if you promote a lock from shared to exclusive, or demote from exclusive to shared, the lock is actually unlocked. I didn't check to see if fcntl() has the same bug. Consider adding locks by a named resource on a file, so it is possible to have multiple locks on the same file but with different purposes. File data sections don't cut it; I want names so I can define my own resources. In particular, I want a resource which indicates "file open by mailer", and which must be exclusive in order to remove messages; and another one which indicates "currently parsing mailbox data", and which must be exclusive in order to append new data. Neither flock() nor fcntl() give this level of support, yet DEC's and IBM's old proprietary operating systems did. From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 14:38:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA13523 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 14:38:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA13517 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 14:38:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA14736 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 23:31:10 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id XAA05583 for current@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 23:31:03 +0100 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.2/keltia-uucp-2.9) id WAA15215; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:11:41 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199610312111.WAA15215@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:11:40 +0100 From: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 2.1.5r -> current upgrade References: <199610301317.GAA13054@lundin.abq.nm.us> <199610311828.TAA14373@keltia.freenix.fr> <199610312039.UAA03047@right.PCS> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.48.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT ctm#2632 In-Reply-To: <199610312039.UAA03047@right.PCS>; from Jonathan Lemon on Oct 31, 1996 14:39:04 -0600 Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Jonathan Lemon: > Does this mean that the biggest performance boost comes from adding an > additional controller? Not really. My "make world" time came down from 9h50 to 4h50 (approx) when I changed the DX-33 into a DX4-100. I got a lower time (around 4 hours) by putting /usr/obj elsewhere (and as I got 2 SCSI controllers, I put the disk there). /usr/src, /usr/obj and the CVS tree are all "async", it helps a lot. It also helps for CTM extraction/patch because the packets are extracted from sd11 (holds FTP) into sd12 (holds CVS) and then "cvs update" is on sd0 (holds /usr/src). BT-747S (sd0 = IBM DORS 32160 2 GB): Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on /dev/sd0a 19487 14463 3466 81% / /dev/sd0d 99247 66652 24656 73% /usr /dev/sd0e 349759 172134 149645 53% /usr/local /dev/sd0f 201983 88004 97821 47% /users /dev/sd0g 496367 249262 207396 55% /src <<< /usr/src /dev/sd0h 829345 306047 456951 40% /work AHA-1740A (sd11 = Micropolis MP1624 640 MB & sd12 = Seagate 321200N 1 GB): Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on /dev/sd11a 637862 579709 7125 99% /x <<< FTP /dev/sd12e 68735 18149 45088 29% /var /dev/sd12g 279647 148397 108879 58% /y <<< /usr/obj /dev/sd12h 465391 281984 146176 66% /spare <<< CVS tree > Hm. I was thinking my poor little DX2/66 was > mainly CPU bound. I'll have to try putting in a spare 1542 into my EISA > machine and seeing if that makes a difference. My DX-33 system was very CPU-bound. Much less with the DX4-100 (of course). -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 2.2-CURRENT #26: Sun Oct 27 19:39:11 MET 1996 From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 15:04:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA15094 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:04:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA15083; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:04:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA26482; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:56:58 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610312256.PAA26482@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: MRC@Panda.COM (Mark Crispin) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:56:58 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, gpalmer@FreeBSD.org, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, j@uriah.heep.sax.de, roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, current@FreeBSD.org, scrappy@ki.net In-Reply-To: from "Mark Crispin" at Oct 31, 96 01:18:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Failing that, you could look at /var/mail with stat and look at st_dev > > to see if it was NFS > > Alas!! Been there, done that. > > Using st_dev to check for NFS isn't portable. There's no portable way to > check for NFS on BSD systems. On SVR4, you could do ustat and check f_tinode, > but SUN broke that in Solaris 2.5. There are section (3) rotuines for parsing the mounted file systems and the fstab. You can compare the st_dev with the active mount points, so it is possible (these interfaces are a BSD4.4 introduction. > > and the permissions to see if they will let your > > users create .lock files successfully. > > Of course, you do this on a file-by-file basis, since it may work in some > directories but not others (not all mail is on /var/mail). > > Or, you could just try to create the .lock file and see what happens. > > OK, we're still on the same track. > > > You may not be able to know that fcntl() *will* work, but you can know > > .lock files *won't* work. > > So, what do we do now? We've determined that .lock files won't work. We no > longer have any guidance from run time tests. We have to choose a policy from > here. > > What are our choices? > 1) Error: "Lock failed, mailbox open aborted" > 2) Warning: "Lock failed, proceeding as if locked" > 3) Ignore the condition entirely. How about: 4) Warning: "Lock failed, using fcntl locking" or 5) Silently switch to fcntl() locking, since the system policy set by the mail directory permissions can't be changed by Joe Average User ? > Policy (3) is extremely dangerous unless you know that .lock files are never > needed. This is probably right for FreeBSD users who never use NFS, and know > they will never do so. > > I distribute the software with policy (2), and a build-time conditional to set > policy (3). Actually, policy 2 or 3 is correct for NFS as well, assuming the changes pending in the core team are ever integrated, and assuming it fails over to fcntl() (in which case 2 is 4 and 3 is 5). > In other words, it doesn't. The only thing it can do is be prepared. Good > Boy Scout software it is, yessiree. Apply every possible lock I can, that's > the trick. Brave yes, thrifty, no. 8^). > > Again, I would prefer runtime configuration. If nothing else, because > > I use AMD to relocate my mail files to user accounts, and some are local > > and some are NFS mounted. > > This is EXACTLY what I'm doing for you, sir!! > > Now, do you have some magic run time test that could lead me to discriminate > between the two cases: > 1) system call locking was the right thing, don't worry. > 2) you really needed the .lock file, and the fool who set up the > system did so in a way that you don't have privileges to lock the > mail file. > If you did, I'd be happier than a pig in mud. Stat the directory where the .lock file will be created. If you can do it, do it and fcntl() (fcntl() is important for interoperability for MUA's and MDA'a and MTA's that already use fcntl()) both. If you can't do it, assume the permission are set intentionally to dictate locking policy (ie: it's not an error condition you need to flag for the user; if anyone should be flagged, it should *only* be the admin). Then silently fall back to fcntl(). > About 6 years ago, a VAX BSD guru assured me that "turn off the annoying > message; if .lock file locking fails, system call locking is the right thing, > don't worry." I made the mistake of believing him. > > I subsequently have YEARS of unhappy experience with systems that use setgid > access to the mail spool. This is a particularly nasty problem, since the > poor guys don't know that they have a problem for months until bad luck > strikes and mail delivery happens while their mailbox is being rewritten. > And, for a while, they put it down as a random glitch or user goof, until a > long-term continuous patten comes up. And when they finally ask for help, > they are VERY upset, and even more upset to learn that the condition was > detected but they were never told about it. If you have a SGID mailspool, clearly the system expects .lock locking (I think a stat of the target mailspool, even if all mailspools aren't in the same place, is enough to tell you on a per mailspool basis). The mistaken VAX BSD "guru" not withstanding. 8-). The fcntl() can never hurt. Taking the stat of the target mailspool as a runtime configuration option seems to be the right thing to do. For users who incorrectly configure their own folder directories: there are rules, dictated by system policy, for setting these things up. If you fail to follow the rules, the results are "undefined". For the vast majority ofusers, the admin sets up their mailspool for them, and they have no say in the matter. > It is going to take a lot more than flaming to get me to trust the word of BSD > folks again. You're going to have to show me what I can do to make things any > better for you without reintroducing this problem in the remaining 99% of the > market. You should take VAX BSD folks with caution. Us BSD 4.4 folks are much more trustworthy. 8-) 8-). > > By publicising the fact that fcntl and flock locking are available on > > all POSIX conformant and POSIX compliant systems, and that POSIX > > strictly mandates how an FS must act, and NFS is an FS? > > Too many NFS clusters have had cluster-wide shutdowns from lockd/statd. They should be fixed. > I am unaware of any POSIX requirement that "mail spool locking must be done > using fcntl() and must not be done by using .lock files". If there is such a > requirement, it's being widely ignored out there. Out of 3 dozen UNIX > variants that I support, only two are believed to have mail delivery programs > that use fcntl() or flock(). I didn't say that; I said that fcntl() must work. If it doesn't, it's a non-{conformant|compliant} system and should be ratted out to the press so they have to fix it. > > Actually the question is where there will be a BSD4.4-Lite specific #ifdef > > for the default FreeBSD configuration to avoid the warning so that we > > don't have to hack around the warning using "port" code. > > Sigh. How many times did I tell you that the conditional is already there? > For the benefit of the lazy, it's IGNORE_LOCK_EACCES_ERRORS. So, assuming you > still use the neb port, it's > make neb -DIGNORE_LOCK_EACCES_ERRORS > > This is not going to be the default, because of the reasons with NFS outlined > above. But .lock will not work. Ever. BSD mail spools are not 1777. They will not be changed to 1777 because of the denial-of-service vulnerability doing that will introduce. If it is within the BSD camp's power (or at least this member of the camp), the denial-of-service vulnerability will be CERT advisoried, and *nobody's* mail spool will be 1777 in the future. The .lock files will begin to fail elsewhere as other systems are corrected to comply with the CERT advisory. > Recently: > > The guys at IBM swore on a stack of Bibles that it would work in AIX, and > backed up their word with an offer of free RS/6000s if it didn't work. Thanks > for the free machines, guys. I'd be interested in this "free machine" offer. 8-). > They guys at SUN swore up and down that they got it working on Solaris 2.5. > Well, the field results are in. It doesn't work. Now they're saying 2.6, for > sure. At least one of my spys inside SUN is wagering with me that it won't. It works in 4.1.3_U2 and 4.1.4, AFAIK. Solaris is a different kettle of fish. I'd expect it to fail there because of server caching (which you can turn off -- procedure is documented on Sunsite). You will take a big hit on write performance if you do that, but you have to do it anyway to get the write gurantees from the NFS protocol definition. > Now, you guys may be smarter than the guys at IBM and SUN, and will come up > with fcntl()/lockd/statd that works for everyone. That would be great news, > and you would save the world. Heh. 8-). > By the way, in terms of saving the world, here's a few more items: > > I hope that you'll fix the bug in fcntl() that if you have a lock on a file, > and then lock the same file on a different file designator in the same > process, the first lock is blown away. This apparently happens even if the > locks are owned by different threads in the same process; locks are apparently > recorded in a per-process inode table. This comes from the lock list being hung of the inode instead of the vnode (in FreeBSD anyway). Patches have been submitted which fix this. Is this a currently existing BSD problem? It will be fixed. > Oh, and there's also the flock() bug that if you promote a lock from shared to > exclusive, or demote from exclusive to shared, the lock is actually unlocked. > I didn't check to see if fcntl() has the same bug. I expect it would, if this is a BSD bug. The code is shared. The lock promotion, I understand... it's possible to do it right, but almost no one does. There is a race while the vnode is unlocked that is there because of the way VOP_ADVLOCK is (incorrectly) layered as a call-down interface. Patches have been submitted which fix this. Is this a currently existing BSD problem? It will be fixed. > Consider adding locks by a named resource on a file, so it is possible to have > multiple locks on the same file but with different purposes. File data > sections don't cut it; I want names so I can define my own resources. In > particular, I want a resource which indicates "file open by mailer", and which > must be exclusive in order to remove messages; and another one which indicates > "currently parsing mailbox data", and which must be exclusive in order to > append new data. Neither flock() nor fcntl() give this level of support, yet > DEC's and IBM's old proprietary operating systems did. Yeah. This is an implied state issue. The only way to deal with this is to provide a hard connection across the implied state. Actually, I'd suggest solvng the problem by imposing a promption and demotion order protocol, and an override. The override would, unfortunately, require you to extend the fcntl interface to handle "append" locks which don't allow write to intermediate data while the end is locked. This would only get hairy for mmap'ed files... For the append, you could write-lock the area after the end of the file to infinity even with a read (shared) lock on the earlier data in the file. To get better than that, you would need a record oriented FS so that each mail message was treated as a record so you could delete internal to the file without losing the data appended to the end. In other words, you'd lock a record range, and idempotently manipulate the records without affecting the record offsets created by another user. Probably the right way to do this would be to index the mailbox in a seperate file and implie the states with write order for a two stage indexed commit (standard database technique, where a new data record is written before the index is updated). This is an application library issue more than it's a single file locking issue. That means the best place to put it might be c-client. 8-(. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 15:33:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA16707 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:33:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA16702 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:33:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.2/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id XAA02352; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 23:33:20 GMT Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 08:33:20 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: "Hr.Ladavac" cc: terry@lambert.org, dubois@primate.wisc.edu, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: <199610311259.AA157886749@ws2301.gud.siemens.co.at> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 31 Oct 1996, Hr.Ladavac wrote: > E-mail message from Michael Hancock contained: > > On Wed, 30 Oct 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > > > Also, perhaps I missed it in this discussion, but just what *is* > > > > the security problem WRT having /var/mail set to 1777? > > > > > > % id > > > uid=501(terry) gid=20(staff) groups=20(staff), 0(wheel), 552(ncvs) > > > % touch /var/mail/dubois > > > % chmod 644 !$ > > > % ls -l !$ > > > -rw-r--r-- 1 terry wheel 0 Oct 30 17:02 /var/mail/dubois > > > % mail -s "pay me a dollar to unlock your mail" dubois < /dev/null > > > Null message body; hope that's ok > > > % > > > > The work around is to use mailer readers that truncate instead of remove > > the file when all messages have been deleted or moved. > > How about: > > user is not yet there, but will be ... or he didn't receive any mail yet. Got me on the first one, but the prankster has to predict names. It's probably acceptable for a lot of sites. In the second case use an administrative program that sends mail each time an account is created. Regards, Mike Hancock BTW, I'm just playing devil's advocate. I like flock() and proper permissions on /var/mail. What I really prefer is using procmail to delivering to /home/%u/mail/mbox. This requires changes to pop3 and using a mail reader that can look elsewhere more flexibly. Or just use imap and pine. From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 15:45:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA17455 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:45:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA17450 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:45:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA26617; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:38:56 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610312338.QAA26617@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: michaelh@cet.co.jp (Michael Hancock) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:38:56 -0700 (MST) Cc: lada@ws2301.gud.siemens.co.at, terry@lambert.org, dubois@primate.wisc.edu, current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Michael Hancock" at Nov 1, 96 08:33:20 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Got me on the first one, but the prankster has to predict names. It's > probably acceptable for a lot of sites. > > In the second case use an administrative program that sends mail each time > an account is created. Bletch. Now you are encoding state in things which may not match the system vendor's idea of defaults. This would be bad. The choice to send a "welcome" message is an administrative issue, not a system usage issue. The choice to use something that deletes empty mailboxes by default (like -- elm) is a user issue, not a system usage issue. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 16:00:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA17926 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:00:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA17912 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:00:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from crevenia.parc.xerox.com ([13.2.116.11]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <16782(1)>; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:59:52 PST Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by crevenia.parc.xerox.com with SMTP id <177476>; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:59:42 -0800 X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.7 5/3/96 To: "Justin T. Gibbs" cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Nate Williams , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New Intel EtherExpress Pro/10 driver In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:53:06 PST." <199610312153.NAA10719@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:59:35 PST From: Bill Fenner Message-Id: <96Oct31.155942pst.177476@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Unfortunately, this doesn't solve the ix driver problem. The Intel >EtherExpress and the EtherExpress Pro are two totally different cards. It might be worth mentioning that the NetBSD driver for the Intel EtherExpress (e.g. our ix driver) uses the ie driver, and apparently has all the features ours doesn't (promiscuous, bpf, multicast). Perhaps someone could port the ie changes... Bill From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 16:01:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA18002 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:01:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA17994 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:01:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.2/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id AAA02515; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 00:01:05 GMT Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 09:01:05 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Terry Lambert cc: lada@ws2301.gud.siemens.co.at, dubois@primate.wisc.edu, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: <199610312338.QAA26617@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Yes, it's pretty bogus. These are probably the work-arounds that Mark was alluding to. As I mentioned at the bottom of my previous message I prefer flock() and proper permissions on /var/mail. What I really like is this. 1) mail.local is replaced by procmail and the system wide configuration is set to deliver mail to /home/%u/mail/mbox. 2) pop3 is modified to look in /home/%u/mail/mbox. Alternatively, use imapd. 3) Configure or modify all mailer readers to use /home/%u/mail/mbox as the inbox. Yeah, I know. It would be wishful thinking to ever see a distribution come this way. Regards, Mike Hancock On Thu, 31 Oct 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Got me on the first one, but the prankster has to predict names. It's > > probably acceptable for a lot of sites. > > > > In the second case use an administrative program that sends mail each time > > an account is created. > > Bletch. Now you are encoding state in things which may not match the > system vendor's idea of defaults. > > This would be bad. > > The choice to send a "welcome" message is an administrative issue, not > a system usage issue. > > The choice to use something that deletes empty mailboxes by default > (like -- elm) is a user issue, not a system usage issue. > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 16:20:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA18902 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:20:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA18857 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:20:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.7.6/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA19393; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:18:59 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611010018.QAA19393@root.com> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.root.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Nate Williams , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New Intel EtherExpress Pro/10 driver In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:01:36 PST." <6189.846795696@time.cdrom.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:18:59 -0800 Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I think we need this in both branches. The driver in -stable and >-current is so broken that nothing jmrueda could do will have made it >any worse. :-) This is not a replacement for the EE16 (if_ix) driver. The Pro/10 is a differnet animal entirely. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 16:23:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA19046 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:23:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from quagmire.ki.net (root@quagmire.ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA19041 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:23:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by quagmire.ki.net (8.8.2/8.7.5) with SMTP id TAA13190; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 19:22:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 19:22:20 -0500 (EST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" Reply-To: chat@freebsd.org To: Mark Crispin cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 31 Oct 1996, Mark Crispin wrote: > > You may not be able to know that fcntl() *will* work, but you can know > > .lock files *won't* work. > > So, what do we do now? We've determined that .lock files won't work. We no > longer have any guidance from run time tests. We have to choose a policy from > here. > > What are our choices? > 1) Error: "Lock failed, mailbox open aborted" > 2) Warning: "Lock failed, proceeding as if locked" > 3) Ignore the condition entirely. > Wait, this is stupid...why can't the code have 'fallback' options... if .lock fails, try lockin with fcntl(), if fcntl() fails, try with flock(), if flock() fails, *then* give an error message and abort... > In other words, it doesn't. The only thing it can do is be prepared. Good > Boy Scout software it is, yessiree. Apply every possible lock I can, that's > the trick. > Right, agreed...but as long as one of the three succeeds (in order of preferred locking method), don't print an error message, since a lock has been established... > > Again, I would prefer runtime configuration. If nothing else, because > > I use AMD to relocate my mail files to user accounts, and some are local > > and some are NFS mounted. > > This is EXACTLY what I'm doing for you, sir!! > > Now, do you have some magic run time test that could lead me to discriminate > between the two cases: > 1) system call locking was the right thing, don't worry. > 2) you really needed the .lock file, and the fool who set up the > system did so in a way that you don't have privileges to lock the > mail file. > If you did, I'd be happier than a pig in mud. > > About 6 years ago, a VAX BSD guru assured me that "turn off the annoying > message; if .lock file locking fails, system call locking is the right thing, > don't worry." I made the mistake of believing him. > Can't you test whether a locking method succeeded or not? My man page seems to indicate that a -1 return vali dmeans the lock was unsuccessful for an flock()...so if flock() == -1, try fcntl(). If you feel that a .lock file is the preferred locking method, make that the first lock tha tis attempted... > It is going to take a lot more than flaming to get me to trust the word of BSD > folks again. You're going to have to show me what I can do to make things any > better for you without reintroducing this problem in the remaining 99% of the > market. > The flamage in this discussion, until pretty much this message, has come from both sides :( As is usually the case in flammage.. Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 16:59:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA20892 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:59:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost1.cac.washington.edu (mailhost1.cac.washington.edu [140.142.32.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA20887; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:59:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM (UW-Gateway.Panda.COM [192.107.14.65]) by mailhost1.cac.washington.edu (8.8.2+UW96.10/8.8.2+UW96.10) with SMTP id QAA16311; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:59:45 -0800 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:38:08 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: chat@freebsd.org, "Marc G. Fournier" cc: current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 31 Oct 1996 19:22:20 -0500 (EST), Marc G. Fournier wrote: > Wait, this is stupid...why can't the code have 'fallback' options... > if .lock fails, try lockin with fcntl(), if fcntl() fails, try with flock(), > if flock() fails, *then* give an error message and abort... Why are you hung up on "fallback"? The code does all known forms of locking, independently of whether or not another form fails. I don't know how many times I've told you this. Apparently it still hasn't sunk in. What does it mean for fcntl() or flock() to "fail"? The system call returns success always (see below) on a blocking lock. That doesn't mean that you have a useful lock; perhaps the local mail delivery program doesn't pay attention to it. That doesn't even mean you have a lock at all -- on most BSD systems flock() is a no-op if the file is NFS. > Right, agreed...but as long as one of the three succeeds (in order > of preferred locking method), don't print an error message, since a lock has > been established... This is incorrect. Please re-read the paragraph beginning "What does it mean for fcntl() or flock() to fail". > Can't you test whether a locking method succeeded or not? No. This is what I am trying to tell you. > My man page > seems to indicate that a -1 return vali dmeans the lock was unsuccessful > for an flock()...so if flock() == -1, try fcntl(). You misunderstand the meaning of the -1 return. A -1 return from flock()/fcntl() happens for one of only three reasons: 1) Your code is broken; you called it with bad arguments. 2) You have the misfortune of using one of the broken UNIX variants which has a systemwide limit on the number of locks, and that limit got popped. 3) Another process has the lock, and you are not blocking. In none of these three cases is it appropriate to "try the next method". Case (1) doesn't happen with debugged code. Case (3) doesn't happen if you are blocking (the process will wait until it gets the lock). So that only leaves case (2), which fortunately doesn't happen on most systems. A 0 return from flock()/fcntl() happens for one of two reasons: 1) you got the lock 2) the file is NFS and this OS variant no-ops locks over NFS. In other words, for all practical purposes, the system call always "works". On most UNIX variants, doing so accomplishes nothing useful, since mail delivery looks for a .lock file. > If you feel that a .lock > file is the preferred locking method, make that the first lock tha tis > attempted... It doesn't matter what order things are executed. The ability or inability to create a .lock file says nothing as to whether or not a system call lock should be applied. The ability to apply a system call lock says nothing as to whether or not a .lock file should be applied. From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 17:13:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA21499 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 17:13:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA21491 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 17:13:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA06874; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 17:13:33 -0800 (PST) To: "Justin T. Gibbs" cc: Nate Williams , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New Intel EtherExpress Pro/10 driver In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:53:06 PST." <199610312153.NAA10719@freefall.freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 17:13:33 -0800 Message-ID: <6872.846810813@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Unfortunately, this doesn't solve the ix driver problem. The Intel > EtherExpress and the EtherExpress Pro are two totally different cards. Oh feh, I'm reading too fast. :-( Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 17:29:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA22081 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 17:29:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA22067; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 17:28:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id SAA26864; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 18:22:55 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199611010122.SAA26864@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 18:22:55 +1700 (MST) Cc: MRC@Panda.COM, current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Marc G. Fournier" at Oct 31, 96 07:22:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Wait, this is stupid...why can't the code have 'fallback' options... > if .lock fails, try lockin with fcntl(), if fcntl() fails, try with flock(), > if flock() fails, *then* give an error message and abort... Because silently relying on flock() to do what the man page says it does is something that has bit him in the past, he says. I think it's too much emphasis on the negative. I think that if he gets error reports on FreeBSD, he should say "sorry, report it to them: their flock is supposed to work". Then if there are bugs, they get fixed instead of warning the user and prompting a "what does this mean?" support mail message and a loss of confidence in FreeBSD doing the right thing by default. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 20:53:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA15645 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 20:53:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [199.201.191.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA15637 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 20:53:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from MindBender.serv.net by mx.serv.net (8.7.5/SERV Revision: 2.30) id UAA24067; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 20:53:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.serv.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA18927; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 20:53:01 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611010453.UAA18927@MindBender.serv.net> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.serv.net: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Terry Lambert cc: imp@village.org, aflundi@lundin.abq.nm.us, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 2.1.5r -> current upgrade In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 31 Oct 96 11:46:46 -0700. <199610311846.LAA25733@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 20:52:57 -0800 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> >On my 486DX2/66 + VLB Ultrastor controller + 32M it is between 9 and >> >10 hours. I'd really like to see an 82 minute make world, but I don't >> >have the $6k it takes to get the hardware to do that :-(. >> I've done make world (on NetBSD) in 81 minutes on my single >> P6-200. :-) It doesn't take $6K... >You forgot about all the crystal tuning needed to make it take that >extra minute... It's not that hard, really. You just have to tilt the case slightly so the disks spin "down hill". That gives them the extra little bit of velocity you need to get the extra minute. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@MindBender.serv.net --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 20:55:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA15723 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 20:55:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA15718 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 20:55:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.2/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id EAA04502; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 04:54:33 GMT Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 13:54:32 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Joe Greco cc: current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: <199610311844.MAA28303@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 31 Oct 1996, Joe Greco wrote: > > Or publicize the denial of service attack in the news groups where > > IMAP4 is discussed and hope someone uses it. > > TERRRY! That is perfectly irresponsible :-) On the contrary, this is perfectly responsible. I would also advocate getting c2 to promote a "Hack FreeBSD" contest to see how many security holes people can find. I'd rather have an OS that endures whatever the random public can throw at it. Regards, Mike Hancock From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 21:07:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA16454 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 21:07:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA16445 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 21:07:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.2/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id FAA04570; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 05:06:29 GMT Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 14:06:29 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Mark Crispin cc: Terry Lambert , current@FreeBSD.ORG, scrappy@ki.net Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 31 Oct 1996, Mark Crispin wrote: > 99% is conservative. FreeBSD is much less than 1% of the UNIX market. > > Give me one good reason why I should let 1% of the market tell me that I > should do something that puts 99% of the market at risk. Will you accept patches from us for a FreeBSD specific port? The spirit of the README files seem to indicate that you will. Otherwise, it gives us unnecessary work in to keeping imap up to date in the FreeBSD ports collection. Bear in mind that when things go into the FreeBSD ports collection, the FreeBSD lists bear a lot of the support liability thus reducing your load. Regards, Mike Hancock From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 21:20:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA17111 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 21:20:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA17082 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 21:20:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA07638; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 21:16:08 -0800 (PST) To: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" cc: Terry Lambert , imp@village.org, aflundi@lundin.abq.nm.us, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: 2.1.5r -> current upgrade In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 31 Oct 1996 20:52:57 PST." <199611010453.UAA18927@MindBender.serv.net> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 21:16:08 -0800 Message-ID: <7636.846825368@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > It's not that hard, really. You just have to tilt the case slightly > so the disks spin "down hill". That gives them the extra little bit > of velocity you need to get the extra minute. This only works north of the equator, I'm afraid. In the southern hemisphere you'll actually lose a minute by doing this. Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 21:21:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA17137 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 21:21:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [199.201.191.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA17132 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 21:21:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from MindBender.serv.net by mx.serv.net (8.7.5/SERV Revision: 2.30) id VAA24592; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 21:21:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.serv.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA19832; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 21:21:02 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611010521.VAA19832@MindBender.serv.net> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.serv.net: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: jlemon@americantv.com (Jonathan Lemon) cc: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert), current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 2.1.5r -> current upgrade In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 31 Oct 96 14:39:04 -0600. <199610312039.UAA03047@right.PCS> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 21:21:02 -0800 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Ollivier Robert writes: >> According to Warner Losh: >> > On my 486DX2/66 + VLB Ultrastor controller + 32M it is between 9 and >> > 10 hours. I'd really like to see an 82 minute make world, but I don't >> I was seeing about 9h50 on my 486DX33 + 32 MB + Buslogic 747S EISA. I'm >> now at less than 4 hours on my (now upgraded) 486DX4/100 + 32 MB + a faster >> drive and /usr/src & /usr/obj on different SCSI controllers (the other one >> is an AHA-1740A). jlemon@americantv.com (Jonathan Lemon) writes: >Does this mean that the biggest performance boost comes from adding an >additional controller? Hm. I was thinking my poor little DX2/66 was >mainly CPU bound. I'll have to try putting in a spare 1542 into my EISA >machine and seeing if that makes a difference. In my experience, you will never do any better with a 486. It *is* CPU bound. Or at least a 486 will have much higher latency (turn-around from servicing a completed SCSI task to queuing another task). Less than four hours sounds a little *too* good for a *full* make world on any 486. Are you sure you didn't have some things turned off (like building profiled libs, or formatting man pages (I'm not even sure FreeBSD does that, like NetBSD does))? The world trees have definitely diverged, but I don't think the times will be that far off. My relative times for my personal "make world" script (I call it "doall") on NetBSD, which does a few things redundantly, then clean builds a kernel, are as follows -- this is a full clean build, remaking all dependencies, reformatting all man pages, building all versions of the libraries, etc.: 486-133MHz: A little over 6 hours Pentium-120MHz: 3:15 Pentium Pro-200MHz: 1:21 486: NICE SuperEISA 486 motherboard, AMD 5x86 133MHz, 512K L2 write-back cache, 24MB RAM, BusLogic BT747s Fast/Narrow EISA SCSI controller, 2 - HP 1GB Fast/Narrow SCSI-2 hard drives striped as a ccd P5: Asus P/I-P55TP4N (Triton-1) motherboard, Intel Pentium 120MHz, 512K L2 pipeline-burst cache, 64MB EDO RAM, Adaptec 2940UW Ultra/Wide PCI SCSI controller, same hard drives P6: Asus P/I-P6NP5 (Natoma) motherboard, Intel Pentium Pro 200MHz 256K L2 cache, 64MB EDO RAM, same SCSI controller and drives ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@MindBender.serv.net --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 21:40:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA19990 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 21:40:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from superior.truenorth.org (ppp021-sm2.sirius.com [205.134.231.21]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA19985 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 21:40:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.truenorth.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA12596; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 21:37:02 -0800 (PST) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <199611010537.VAA12596@superior.truenorth.org> Subject: Re: 2.1.5r -> current upgrade To: michaelv@MindBender.serv.net (Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 21:36:59 +1600 (PST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, imp@village.org, aflundi@lundin.abq.nm.us, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, current@FreeBSD.org Reply-To: jgrosch@sirius.com In-Reply-To: <199611010453.UAA18927@MindBender.serv.net> from "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" at "Oct 31, 96 08:52:57 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL13 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >>> >On my 486DX2/66 + VLB Ultrastor controller + 32M it is between 9 and >>> >10 hours. I'd really like to see an 82 minute make world, but I don't >>> >have the $6k it takes to get the hardware to do that :-(. > >>> I've done make world (on NetBSD) in 81 minutes on my single >>> P6-200. :-) It doesn't take $6K... > >>You forgot about all the crystal tuning needed to make it take that >>extra minute... > >It's not that hard, really. You just have to tilt the case slightly >so the disks spin "down hill". That gives them the extra little bit >of velocity you need to get the extra minute. > Yea, but the real trick is holding the machine in that position for 81 minutes :-) Josef -- Josef Grosch | Laugh while you can, monkey boy ! | FreeBSD 2.1.5 jgrosch@sirius.com | - John Warfin - | UNIX for the masses From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 21:52:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA20532 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 21:52:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA20527 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 21:52:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 0.56 #1) id E0vJCX0-0002gM-00; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:52:38 -0700 To: Michael Hancock Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) Cc: current@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 01 Nov 1996 13:54:32 +0900." References: Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:52:38 -0700 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message Michael Hancock writes: : I would also advocate getting c2 to promote a "Hack FreeBSD" contest to : see how many security holes people can find. Just chmod s-o lpr/lpd before starting, OK? I've fixed a bunch, but there are more lurking. I'd also be leery of yelling too loudly about this. OpenBSD has a bunch of buffer overflows in setuid code that isn't lpr/lpd that has yet to be integrated into FreeBSD. I'm working on a list now, but I don't have anything concrete to share at the moment. Warner From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 22:02:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA20905 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:02:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from superior.truenorth.org (ppp021-sm2.sirius.com [205.134.231.21]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA20900 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:02:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.truenorth.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA12724; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:00:58 -0800 (PST) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <199611010600.WAA12724@superior.truenorth.org> Subject: Re: 2.1.5r -> current upgrade To: michaelv@MindBender.serv.net (Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:00:54 +1600 (PST) Cc: jlemon@americantv.com, roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, current@freebsd.org Reply-To: jgrosch@sirius.com In-Reply-To: <199611010521.VAA19832@MindBender.serv.net> from "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" at "Oct 31, 96 09:21:02 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL13 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >>Ollivier Robert writes: >>> According to Warner Losh: >>> > On my 486DX2/66 + VLB Ultrastor controller + 32M it is between 9 and >>> > 10 hours. I'd really like to see an 82 minute make world, but I don't > >>> I was seeing about 9h50 on my 486DX33 + 32 MB + Buslogic 747S EISA. I'm >>> now at less than 4 hours on my (now upgraded) 486DX4/100 + 32 MB + a faster >>> drive and /usr/src & /usr/obj on different SCSI controllers (the other one >>> is an AHA-1740A). > >jlemon@americantv.com (Jonathan Lemon) writes: >>Does this mean that the biggest performance boost comes from adding an >>additional controller? Hm. I was thinking my poor little DX2/66 was >>mainly CPU bound. I'll have to try putting in a spare 1542 into my EISA >>machine and seeing if that makes a difference. > [ DELETED ] > >The world trees have definitely diverged, but I don't think the times >will be that far off. My relative times for my personal "make world" >script (I call it "doall") on NetBSD, which does a few things >redundantly, then clean builds a kernel, are as follows -- this is a >full clean build, remaking all dependencies, reformatting all man >pages, building all versions of the libraries, etc.: > > 486-133MHz: A little over 6 hours > Pentium-120MHz: 3:15 > Pentium Pro-200MHz: 1:21 > [ DELETED ] 3 hours, 15 minutes is about I get on a make world of the Mayday snapshot. I have an ASUS P55T2P4 Triton II 586-120MHz with 16 Meg of ram, 512K L2 cache, Adptec 1542cf SCSI controller and 2 1-gig drives. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Laugh while you can, monkey boy ! | FreeBSD 2.1.5 jgrosch@sirius.com | - John Warfin - | UNIX for the masses From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 22:02:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA20938 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:02:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [199.201.191.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA20932 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:02:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from MindBender.serv.net by mx.serv.net (8.7.5/SERV Revision: 2.30) id WAA25450; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:02:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.serv.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA21132; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:02:33 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611010602.WAA21132@MindBender.serv.net> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.serv.net: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Terry Lambert , imp@village.org, aflundi@lundin.abq.nm.us, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 2.1.5r -> current upgrade In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 31 Oct 96 21:16:08 -0800. <7636.846825368@time.cdrom.com> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:02:28 -0800 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> It's not that hard, really. You just have to tilt the case slightly >> so the disks spin "down hill". That gives them the extra little bit >> of velocity you need to get the extra minute. >This only works north of the equator, I'm afraid. In the southern >hemisphere you'll actually lose a minute by doing this. Oh well, yeah, if you get American disks. But if you get drives designed for markets in the southern hemisphere, which spin the other direction, then it will work. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@MindBender.serv.net --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 22:09:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA21302 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:09:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [199.201.191.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA21293 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:09:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from MindBender.serv.net by mx.serv.net (8.7.5/SERV Revision: 2.30) id WAA25600; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:09:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.serv.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA21420; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:09:30 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611010609.WAA21420@MindBender.serv.net> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.serv.net: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: jgrosch@sirius.com cc: jlemon@americantv.com, roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 2.1.5r -> current upgrade In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 31 Oct 96 22:00:54 +1600. <199611010600.WAA12724@superior.truenorth.org> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:09:30 -0800 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [NetBSD 1.2 on my machines...] >> 486-133MHz: A little over 6 hours >> Pentium-120MHz: 3:15 >> Pentium Pro-200MHz: 1:21 [Speaking of FreeBSD on his machine...] >3 hours, 15 minutes is about I get on a make world of the Mayday >snapshot. I have an ASUS P55T2P4 Triton II 586-120MHz with 16 Meg of ram, >512K L2 cache, Adptec 1542cf SCSI controller and 2 1-gig drives. Ack! You could do better! Throw away that old ISA piece of trash and get a PCI SCSI controller. You should be able to get an NCR/Symbios 53c810 based card for less than $100 from whoever you bought your Asus motherboard from. There is a very definite difference in disk performance. Especially if your hard drive(s) support tagged-command- queuing. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@MindBender.serv.net --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 22:23:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA22032 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:23:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from superior.truenorth.org (ppp021-sm2.sirius.com [205.134.231.21]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA22024 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:23:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.truenorth.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA12836; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:21:41 -0800 (PST) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <199611010621.WAA12836@superior.truenorth.org> Subject: Re: 2.1.5r -> current upgrade To: michaelv@MindBender.serv.net (Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:21:39 +1600 (PST) Cc: jgrosch@sirius.com, jlemon@americantv.com, roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, current@freebsd.org Reply-To: jgrosch@sirius.com In-Reply-To: <199611010609.WAA21420@MindBender.serv.net> from "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" at "Oct 31, 96 10:09:30 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL13 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >[NetBSD 1.2 on my machines...] >>> 486-133MHz: A little over 6 hours >>> Pentium-120MHz: 3:15 >>> Pentium Pro-200MHz: 1:21 > >[Speaking of FreeBSD on his machine...] >>3 hours, 15 minutes is about I get on a make world of the Mayday >>snapshot. I have an ASUS P55T2P4 Triton II 586-120MHz with 16 Meg of ram, >>512K L2 cache, Adptec 1542cf SCSI controller and 2 1-gig drives. > >Ack! You could do better! Throw away that old ISA piece of trash and >get a PCI SCSI controller. You should be able to get an NCR/Symbios >53c810 based card for less than $100 from whoever you bought your Asus >motherboard from. There is a very definite difference in disk >performance. Especially if your hard drive(s) support tagged-command- >queuing. > My new 2940 is sitting right here. I upgrade this weekend. I was trying to point out that even with a clunker of a controller card one can still get half way decent performance with a good 586 motherboard. Josef "Too terse" Grosch -- Josef Grosch | Laugh while you can, monkey boy ! | FreeBSD 2.1.5 jgrosch@sirius.com | - John Warfin - | UNIX for the masses From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 23:06:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA24241 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 23:06:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA24230 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 23:06:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id RAA04341; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:31:42 +1030 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611010701.RAA04341@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: 2.1.5r -> current upgrade To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:31:41 +1030 (CST) Cc: michaelv@MindBender.serv.net, terry@lambert.org, imp@village.org, aflundi@lundin.abq.nm.us, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <7636.846825368@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Oct 31, 96 09:16:08 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying: > > > It's not that hard, really. You just have to tilt the case slightly > > so the disks spin "down hill". That gives them the extra little bit > > of velocity you need to get the extra minute. > > This only works north of the equator, I'm afraid. In the southern > hemisphere you'll actually lose a minute by doing this. ... but you can compensate by turning your monitor upside down. > Jordan -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 23:32:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA27193 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 23:32:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from nexgen.n4hhe.ampr.org (max14-188.HiWAAY.net [206.104.17.188]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA27177 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 23:32:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dkelly@localhost) by nexgen.n4hhe.ampr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA14155; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 01:32:31 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 0.5-alpha [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199611010621.WAA12836@superior.truenorth.org> Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 01:12:00 -0600 (CST) Organization: Amateur Radio N4HHE, Madison, AL. From: David Kelly To: Josef Grosch Subject: SCSI and IDE (was Re: 2.1.5r -> current upgrade) Cc: current@freebsd.org, roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, jlemon@americantv.com, jgrosch@sirius.com, (Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com) Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On 04:21:39 Josef Grosch wrote: >>>3 hours, 15 minutes is about I get on a make world of the Mayday >>>snapshot. I have an ASUS P55T2P4 Triton II 586-120MHz with 16 Meg of ram, >>>512K L2 cache, Adptec 1542cf SCSI controller and 2 1-gig drives. >> >>Ack! You could do better! Throw away that old ISA piece of trash and >>get a PCI SCSI controller. You should be able to get an NCR/Symbios >>53c810 based card for less than $100 from whoever you bought your Asus >>motherboard from. There is a very definite difference in disk >>performance. Especially if your hard drive(s) support tagged-command- >>queuing. >> > >My new 2940 is sitting right here. I upgrade this weekend. I was trying to >point out that even with a clunker of a controller card one can still get >half way decent performance with a good 586 motherboard. System simply has some unused hardware removed from GENERIC but none of the changes since the SNAP: FreeBSD 2.2-961014-SNAP #0: Wed Oct 30 12:12:30 CST 1996 dkelly@PeeCee.tbe.com:/usr/src/sys/compile/PEECEE Speaking of SCSI, I was playing today with IDE and SCSI on my new AMD 586/133 PCI MB. The SCSI is on a 2940, bios rev 1.10 or so: (ahc0:0:0): "SEAGATE ST3610N 9290" type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd0(ahc0:0:0): Direct-Access 510MB (1046206 512 byte sectors) The IDE is an old mode 0 drive on the MB EIDE controller: wdc0: unit 0 (wd0): wd0: 486MB (996912 sectors), 989 cyls, 16 heads, 63 S/T, 512 B/S The system has 32M of memory, its supposed to have 512k of cache but the BIOS only reports 256k (I suspect "WRITE BACK CACHE" on the MB is fake so I added a 256k cache to the cache socket). On the IDE drive: PeeCee: {872} time iozone 32 [snip] IOZONE performance measurements: 1188424 bytes/second for writing the file 2111586 bytes/second for reading the file 0.2u 10.8s 0:44.54 24.7% 69+750k 374+542io 0pf+0w Now on to the SCSI drive: PeeCee: {873} cd /usr1 PeeCee: {874} time iozone 32 [snip] IOZONE performance measurements: 3455323 bytes/second for writing the file 4149726 bytes/second for reading the file 0.2u 10.9s 0:18.17 61.5% 26+281k 363+533io 0pf+0w ^^^^ this is the interesting part. Notice how both took the same amount of system time? (nit pickers: SCSI took 0.1 second longer.) I'm disappointed. A bit. BTW, tried a 1542CF first thing after upgrading to the SNAP and upgrading the MB from a 486DX33 that wouldn't host a bus master card. Iozone reported thruput about the same as the IDE. Didn't think to do the "time" part. And I don't think I'm interested enough to take it apart and put the 1542CF back in. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@tomcat1.tbe.com (wk), dkelly@hiwaay.net (hm) ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-current Thu Oct 31 23:47:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA01640 for current-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 23:47:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA01616; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 23:47:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.7.6/8.6.9) id SAA01117; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 18:42:10 +1100 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 18:42:10 +1100 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199611010742.SAA01117@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: gpalmer@freebsd.org, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com Subject: Re: Request to add this to FAQ re: swap space Cc: current@freebsd.org, dtc@scrooge.ee.swin.oz.au, dyson@freebsd.org, rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >You probably want to raise DK_NDRIVE and a few other "less important but >mildly annoying" parameters as well, such as MSG_BSIZE. Don't change MSG_BSIZE. Allocation of vm for it is broken except for the default size. Bruce From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 00:14:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA05992 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 00:14:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA05959; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 00:14:37 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Lehey Received: from freebie.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0vJEkL-000QpiC; Fri, 1 Nov 96 09:14 MET Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.de (8.8.2/8.6.12) id IAA19756; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 08:49:58 +0100 (MET) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Message-Id: <199611010749.IAA19756@freebie.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Any ISDN-BRI cards work under FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: from Hellmuth Michaelis at "Oct 31, 96 04:19:57 pm" To: hm@kts.org Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 08:49:56 +0100 (MET) Cc: questions@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, isdn@muc.ditec.de X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hellmuth Michaelis writes: >>> In Germany and other parts of Europe, the Teles S0 and compatible >>> boards are supported. They *should* work in the US > > They will not work in the US, simply because in Europe the NT is supplied > by the Telecom's whereas in the US the NT has to be supplied by the user > or by the device; the "user" interface in Europe is the S0 bus, in the > US it is the Uk0 interface. A Teles bought in Europe has a S0 interface. This doesn't mean they won't work. This means that you need an NT. You need an NT here too, but as you say, in Germany it's supplied by the PTT. > There is a chance to get a Teles working in the US by also carrying an > NT for every card with you, I wouldn't have thought that bringing a German NT would be the way to go. To the best of my knowledge, NTs are available in the US too. Not every device has an integrated NT: it's not economical if you have multiple devices. And of course, if you intend to install more than one Teles board on a single line, you only need one NT, so you don't necessarily need one NT for eevery Teles board. > but i doubt this setup will work because of timing differences in > the US. By "this setup", do you mean using a German NT? In any case, what timing differences do you mean? Greg From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 01:14:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA10883 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 01:14:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from vector.jhs.no_domain (slip139-92-42-40.ut.nl.ibm.net [139.92.42.40]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA10857 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 01:14:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jhs@localhost) by vector.jhs.no_domain (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA10601; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 18:53:19 +0100 (MET) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 18:53:19 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199610311753.SAA10601@vector.jhs.no_domain> To: current@freebsd.org Subject: src/games/piano From: "Julian H. Stacey" Reply-To: "Julian H. Stacey" X-Organization: Vector Systems Ltd. X-Mailer: EXMH 1.6.7, PGP available X-Address: Holz Strasse 27d, 80469 Munich, Germany X-Phone: +49.89.268616 X-Fax: +49.89.2608126 X-ISDN: +49.89.26023276 (soon) X-Web: http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Bloat Alert ... src/games/piano should be moved to ports/[games/piano]. Piano is not even in 4.4BSD-Lite CD-ROM. Julian --- Julian H. Stacey jhs@freebsd.org http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 01:30:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA11922 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 01:30:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA11916; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 01:30:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (ala-ca19-01.ix.netcom.com [205.187.212.33]) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with ESMTP id BAA14538; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 01:29:40 -0800 Received: (from asami@localhost) by silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (8.8.2/8.6.9) id BAA19472; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 01:29:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 01:29:38 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611010929.BAA19472@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> To: jhs@freebsd.org CC: current@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <199610311753.SAA10601@vector.jhs.no_domain> Subject: Re: src/games/piano From: asami@freebsd.org (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk * Bloat Alert ... src/games/piano should be moved to ports/[games/piano]. * Piano is not even in 4.4BSD-Lite CD-ROM. Boy is this a major bloat or what. === >> ls /usr/src/games/piano total 7 1 CVS/ 1 Makefile 1 README 1 piano.6 3 piano.c === There aren't many source modules that are smaller than ports skeletons. Congratulations, you just won the "most relevant post of the day" award! Satoshi P.S. My /usr/src/games/piano is 11KB, my /usr/ports/games/xroach is 29KB. It hurts when you use CVS because there would be 4KB CVS subdirectories for each directory (there are at least 3 if it's a port). From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 02:14:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA15104 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 02:14:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA15097 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 02:14:38 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Lehey Received: from freebie.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0vJGcV-000Qq2C; Fri, 1 Nov 96 11:14 MET Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.de (8.8.2/8.6.12) id JAA19826; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 09:21:01 +0100 (MET) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Message-Id: <199611010821.JAA19826@freebie.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Any ISDN-BRI cards work under FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <199610312216.WAA09906@peedub.gj.org> from Gary Jennejohn at "Oct 31, 96 10:16:07 pm" To: Gary.Jennejohn@munich.netsurf.de Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 09:20:59 +0100 (MET) Cc: FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD current users), isdn@muc.ditec.de (FreeBSD ISDN Distribution List) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Gary Jennejohn writes: > J Wunsch writes: >>As garyj@frt.dec.com wrote: >> >>> I'm going to be in California from Nov 7 til Nov 28 and would be more >>> than willing to bring a pair of (ISA) cards from Germany and try to get the >>> bisdn code working in the US. I already asked Jordan, but he can't >>> accomodate me. Is there anyone in the Bay Area who has ISDN and a pair >>> of boxes who'd be willing to make them available for this ? >> >>Don't forget to carry an NT with you. I think in the US, unlike >>Europe, NTs are not owned by the Telco's and thus are often integrated >>into the peripherals. > > yeah, Hellmuth Michaelis pointed this out in no uncertain terms ! I > guess it won't be practical, so I hereby retract my request. Why? You were looking for somebody who already has an ISDN line. Now you're looking for somebody with an ISDN line and an NT. Greg From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 02:16:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA15145 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 02:16:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA15103; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 02:14:41 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Lehey Received: from freebie.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0vJGcW-000Qq8C; Fri, 1 Nov 96 11:14 MET Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.de (8.8.2/8.6.12) id JAA19813; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 09:18:23 +0100 (MET) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Message-Id: <199611010818.JAA19813@freebie.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Any ISDN-BRI cards work under FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <199610311856.LAA25769@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Oct 31, 96 11:56:39 am" To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 09:18:21 +0100 (MET) Cc: questions@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD Questions), FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD current users), isdn@muc.ditec.de (FreeBSD ISDN Distribution List) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert writes: >>>> done it yet. They currently only run single channel connections (you >>>> can have two different connections to different destinations). The >>>> theoretical maximum throughput is 8 kB/s (64,000 bps), which is >>>> somewhat less than the theoretical maximum of the 115.2 kbps lines >>>> (11.52 kB/s). >> >> Why do you divide by 8 in the one case and by 10 in the other? > > My guesses: > > 8) 8*8k = 64k; conversion is for sync framing > > 10) 1 start + 8bits + 1 stop = 10bits; conversion is for > async framing I'm surprised you need to guess. Yes, that's correct. People seem to have problems understanding this one, so I'll go into a little more detail: Synchronous transmission is block oriented. Various techniques are used to recognize the beginning and end of the block, and all the data in a block are sent without any delay between the bits. When transmitting 8 bit bytes (octets), there's a ratio of 8 bits per octet, so 64 kbps becomes 8 kB/s. Asynchronous transmission is character oriented. Each character starts with a start bit, then come the data bits, then one or more stop bits. Nowadays there is only one stop bit, but that expands each byte to 10 bits. The advantage is that you don't need any specific timing between characters (thus the term asynchronous), so it's quite well suited to things like keyboard input. In sync transmission, each input character would have to be made into a block. The disadvantage is the significantly lower data rate. > A more interesting question might be 64k + 64k = 128k. 128k != 115.2k. Yes, this is where we came in. Currently, the driver can't do that. Somewhere in the back of my head I have a recollection that TCP can do it, though: you just set up two routes, and it should be able to pass packets down the route with the shorter output queue. Can anybody expand on this? Of course, 128k != 128k as well if one is sync and the other is async. 128k sync is 160k async. Greg From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 02:16:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA15172 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 02:16:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA15167 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 02:16:13 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Lehey Received: from freebie.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0vJGcU-000QpvC; Fri, 1 Nov 96 11:14 MET Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.de (8.8.2/8.6.12) id JAA19837; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 09:28:42 +0100 (MET) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Message-Id: <199611010828.JAA19837@freebie.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Any ISDN-BRI cards work under FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <199610311858.TAA16867@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Oct 31, 96 07:58:39 pm" To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 09:28:40 +0100 (MET) Cc: FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD current users), isdn@muc.ditec.de (FreeBSD ISDN Distribution List) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch writes: > As Christoph Kukulies wrote: > >>>> In Germany and other parts of Europe, the Teles S0 and compatible >>>> boards are supported. They *should* work in the US, though nobody's >> >> I'd really be surprised if these cards would work at 56Kb/s and >> if they's connect physically. > > The 56/64 is only one frame bit that's being used differently (not for > the data channels in the US). AFAIK, the raw frames are similar, and > the Teles cards are probably dumb enough :) to not see the difference > anyway. The Teles cards are almost certainly dumb enough. The problem is in the software, which is almost certainly too dumb to handle the problem. I'm not too sure exactly how the data are framed in 56 kb/s simulated ISDN. The one missing bit is used to carry the D channel across the trunks, but I don't know how they map it to the local loop. I think the local loop still runs at 192 kb/s (2x64 kb/s B channels, 16 kb/s D channel, 48 kb/s timing), but only 7 bits of every 8 on the B channel are significant. You'd have to extract these bits and put them back together as a coherent data block, which would take up quite a bit of CPU time. If I'm wrong, and the D channel is still in the 8th bit, you'll have even more work to do. I would guess that the Teles board will still function as long as the loop runs at 192 kb/s. The good news, however, is that 56 kb/s is not the only game in town. It was only ever intended as an interim measure, and many areas supply 64 kb/s. Could somebody in the US please comment? Greg From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 03:09:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA18304 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 03:09:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA18296; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 03:09:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (ala-ca19-01.ix.netcom.com [205.187.212.33]) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with ESMTP id DAA10367; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 03:08:31 -0800 Received: (from asami@localhost) by silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (8.8.2/8.6.9) id DAA01754; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 03:08:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 03:08:28 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611011108.DAA01754@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> To: thomas@ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de, jmz@freebsd.org, wollman@freebsd.org, asami@freebsd.org, mr@freebsd.org, jkh@freebsd.org, pst@freebsd.org CC: ports@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Reply-to: ports@silvia.hip.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: tcl/tk based ports based on obsolete stuff From: asami@freebsd.org (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk A followup on this: games/tksol/Makefile tk4.0 -> updated misc/ctk/Makefile tcl7.4 thomas@ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de misc/tkman/Makefile tk4.0 -> updated audio/xcd/Makefile tk3.6 jmz emulators/tkhfs/Makefile tk3.6 jmz net/imm/Makefile tk3.6 wollman net/nv/Makefile tk3.6 wollman misc/kp/Makefile tk3.6 -> updated www/tkWWW/Makefile tk3.6 asami -> will be deleted lang/expect/Makefile tcl7.3 -> updated print/xtexshell/Makefile tclX3.6 mr (ancient) www/wwwish/Makefile tk3.6 jkh (ancient) Of course, I'm not counting tcl/tk themselves (English/Japanese) and tclX, which are already "updated" in a sense. I am planning to remove all these within two weeks if they are not updated. (Or at least mark them "broken", they just cause too much trouble building packages.) Satoshi From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 03:12:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA18633 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 03:12:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA18626; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 03:12:24 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199611011112.DAA18626@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: SCSI and IDE (was Re: 2.1.5r -> current upgrade) To: dkelly@hiwaay.net (David Kelly) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 03:12:23 -0800 (PST) Cc: jgrosch@superior.truenorth.org, current@FreeBSD.org, roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, jlemon@americantv.com, jgrosch@sirius.com, michaelv@MindBender.serv.net In-Reply-To: from "David Kelly" at Nov 1, 96 01:12:00 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk David Kelly wrote: > > Speaking of SCSI, I was playing today with IDE and SCSI on my new > AMD 586/133 PCI MB. The SCSI is on a 2940, bios rev 1.10 or so: > > (ahc0:0:0): "SEAGATE ST3610N 9290" type 0 fixed SCSI 2 > sd0(ahc0:0:0): Direct-Access 510MB (1046206 512 byte sectors) > > The IDE is an old mode 0 drive on the MB EIDE controller: > > wdc0: unit 0 (wd0): > wd0: 486MB (996912 sectors), 989 cyls, 16 heads, 63 S/T, 512 B/S > > The system has 32M of memory, its supposed to have 512k of cache > but the BIOS only reports 256k (I suspect "WRITE BACK CACHE" on > the MB is fake so I added a 256k cache to the cache socket). > > On the IDE drive: > PeeCee: {872} time iozone 32 > [snip] > IOZONE performance measurements: > 1188424 bytes/second for writing the file > 2111586 bytes/second for reading the file > 0.2u 10.8s 0:44.54 24.7% 69+750k 374+542io 0pf+0w > > Now on to the SCSI drive: > PeeCee: {873} cd /usr1 > PeeCee: {874} time iozone 32 > [snip] > IOZONE performance measurements: > 3455323 bytes/second for writing the file > 4149726 bytes/second for reading the file > 0.2u 10.9s 0:18.17 61.5% 26+281k 363+533io 0pf+0w > ^^^^ this is the interesting part. it is interesting that the system time is the same. how full are the disks? IOzone is sensitive to how full the disk is. Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on /dev/sd1a 38991 24083 11789 67% / /dev/sd1e 297423 243942 29688 89% /usr /dev/sd1f 656010 541051 62479 90% /home /dev/sd2f 424591 95490 295134 24% /usr/obj /dev/sd2g 230345 177118 34800 84% /usr/src procfs 4 4 0 100% /proc Aspen:[2] cd /home/jmb/tmp Aspen:[3] time /home/jmb/BenchMarks/iozone-2.01/iozone 32 [snip] IOZONE performance measurements: 1539966 bytes/second for writing the file 1915685 bytes/second for reading the file 0.5u 16.8s 0:40.24 43.1% 25+287k 1060+1049io 6pf+0w Aspen:[4] cd /usr/src Aspen:[5] time /home/jmb/BenchMarks/iozone-2.01/iozone 32 IOZONE performance measurements: 1678377 bytes/second for writing the file 2340581 bytes/second for reading the file 0.6u 16.2s 0:34.93 48.4% 25+285k 670+676io 0pf+0w Aspen:[6] cd /usr/obj Aspen:[7] time /home/jmb/BenchMarks/iozone-2.01/iozone 32 IOZONE performance measurements: 2499980 bytes/second for writing the file 4177983 bytes/second for reading the file 0.5u 18.1s 0:22.19 84.3% 26+286k 534+540io 0pf+0w 2 iozone's running on the same filesystems at the same time: Aspen:[8] time /home/jmb/BenchMarks/iozone-2.01/iozone 32 &; \ ( cd foo; time /home/jmb/BenchMarks/iozone-2.01/iozone 32 &) & IOZONE performance measurements: 1184165 bytes/second for writing the file 1701651 bytes/second for reading the file 0.5u 17.5s 0:50.20 36.0% 26+290k 514+570io 0pf+0w IOZONE performance measurements: 1120523 bytes/second for writing the file 1727661 bytes/second for reading the file 0.4u 17.4s 0:49.32 36.3% 25+283k 514+551io 1pf+0w aggregate thruput is somewhat less, system time for each iozone run is less (more done per interrupt), clock time is somewhat more than double a single iozone backgrounding may actually speed up disk transfers !! :) look ath the clock time below...hmmm.. Aspen:[9] time /home/jmb/BenchMarks/iozone-2.01/iozone 32 & IOZONE performance measurements: 2476913 bytes/second for writing the file 4387096 bytes/second for reading the file 0.5u 17.7s 0:21.85 83.5% 26+288k 479+535io 0pf+0w machine is a 486dx2-66, asus sp3g, pci sc-200 (ncr53c810), 16mb, 256 kb write-back, disks are "FUJITSU M1606S-512 6234" type 0 fixed SCSI 2 jmb -- Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD--4.4BSD Unix for PC clones, source included. http://www.freebsd.org/ PGP 2.6.2 Fingerprint: 31 57 41 56 06 C1 40 13 C5 1C E3 E5 DC 62 0E FB From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 03:29:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA19813 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 03:29:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA19795 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 03:29:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.7.6/8.6.9) id WAA07303; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 22:24:37 +1100 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 22:24:37 +1100 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199611011124.WAA07303@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: dkelly@HiWAAY.net, jgrosch@superior.truenorth.org Subject: Re: SCSI and IDE (was Re: 2.1.5r -> current upgrade) Cc: current@freebsd.org, jgrosch@sirius.com, jlemon@americantv.com, michaelv@MindBender.serv.net, roberto@keltia.freenix.fr Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >On the IDE drive: >PeeCee: {872} time iozone 32 >[snip] >IOZONE performance measurements: > 1188424 bytes/second for writing the file > 2111586 bytes/second for reading the file >0.2u 10.8s 0:44.54 24.7% 69+750k 374+542io 0pf+0w > >Now on to the SCSI drive: >PeeCee: {873} cd /usr1 >PeeCee: {874} time iozone 32 >[snip] >IOZONE performance measurements: > 3455323 bytes/second for writing the file > 4149726 bytes/second for reading the file >0.2u 10.9s 0:18.17 61.5% 26+281k 363+533io 0pf+0w > ^^^^ this is the interesting part. > >Notice how both took the same amount of system time? This is normal. IDE i/o is done in the interrupt handler except for the first block, and interrupt overhead is not counted in the system time. SCSI i/o is done while the CPU is not using the bus, and overheads for keeping the CPU off the bus are not counted in the system time (except indirectly). In this benchmark, the parts of the overheads that get counted are apparently almost identical. I estimate that the totoal SCSI overhead is 1-2 seconds and 3/4 of it gets counted (indirectly), while the total IDE overhead is 10 seconds and 1/8 of it gets counted. >I'm disappointed. A bit. Use systat to see interrupt overheads, or just divide the average transfer speed by the PIO speed and add a few percent. E.g., PIO mode 0 (3MB/sec) delivering 2MB/sec has an overhead of > 66%. PIO mode 4 (16MB/sec) delivering 5MB/sec has an overhead of > 30%. OTOH, the large system overhead defeats half the advantage of SCSI. It seems a bit too large. I get an overhead of about 2 seconds per 32M on a Triton 1 P133 system with both SCSI and IDE drive delivering 5MB/sec. Bruce From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 04:14:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA23939 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 04:14:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from Octopussy.MI.Uni-Koeln.DE (Octopussy.MI.Uni-Koeln.DE [134.95.166.20]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA23896 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 04:13:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from x14.mi.uni-koeln.de (annexr2-48.slip.Uni-Koeln.DE) by Octopussy.MI.Uni-Koeln.DE with SMTP id AA16785 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 1 Nov 1996 13:12:35 +0100 Received: (from se@localhost) by x14.mi.uni-koeln.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id MAA00737; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 12:23:38 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199611011123.MAA00737@x14.mi.uni-koeln.de> Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 12:22:18 +0100 From: se@zpr.uni-koeln.de (Stefan Esser) To: dkelly@hiwaay.net (David Kelly) Cc: jgrosch@superior.truenorth.org (Josef Grosch), current@FreeBSD.org, roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, jlemon@americantv.com, jgrosch@sirius.com, michaelv@MindBender.serv.net Subject: Re: SCSI and IDE (was Re: 2.1.5r -> current upgrade) In-Reply-To: ; from David Kelly on Nov 1, 1996 01:12:00 -0600 References: X-Mailer: Mutt 0.45 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk David Kelly writes: > > System simply has some unused hardware removed from GENERIC but > none of the changes since the SNAP: > FreeBSD 2.2-961014-SNAP #0: Wed Oct 30 12:12:30 CST 1996 > dkelly@PeeCee.tbe.com:/usr/src/sys/compile/PEECEE > > Speaking of SCSI, I was playing today with IDE and SCSI on my new > AMD 586/133 PCI MB. The SCSI is on a 2940, bios rev 1.10 or so: > > (ahc0:0:0): "SEAGATE ST3610N 9290" type 0 fixed SCSI 2 > sd0(ahc0:0:0): Direct-Access 510MB (1046206 512 byte sectors) > > The IDE is an old mode 0 drive on the MB EIDE controller: > > wdc0: unit 0 (wd0): > wd0: 486MB (996912 sectors), 989 cyls, 16 heads, 63 S/T, 512 B/S > On the IDE drive: > PeeCee: {872} time iozone 32 > [snip] > IOZONE performance measurements: > 1188424 bytes/second for writing the file > 2111586 bytes/second for reading the file > 0.2u 10.8s 0:44.54 24.7% 69+750k 374+542io 0pf+0w > > Now on to the SCSI drive: > PeeCee: {873} cd /usr1 > PeeCee: {874} time iozone 32 > [snip] > IOZONE performance measurements: > 3455323 bytes/second for writing the file > 4149726 bytes/second for reading the file > 0.2u 10.9s 0:18.17 61.5% 26+281k 363+533io 0pf+0w > ^^^^ this is the interesting part. > > Notice how both took the same amount of system time? > (nit pickers: SCSI took 0.1 second longer.) > > I'm disappointed. A bit. Hmmm, I wasn't ... The real test is to have some other program running in the background, and to measure how much the disk accesses slow it down. My guess is, that most of the CPU overhead required to deal with the IDE drive is not accounted to that process, since it will occur within an interrupt handler. And looking at the real time reported, it seems obvious that the SCSI drive took only 40% of the time required by the IDE drive to complete the same task. (Neither of the drives is "modern", and both were designed for typical desktop PC use.) Do a "make world" on both drives, and report the difference ... > BTW, tried a 1542CF first thing after upgrading to the SNAP > and upgrading the MB from a 486DX33 that wouldn't host a bus > master card. Iozone reported thruput about the same as the IDE. > Didn't think to do the "time" part. And I don't think I'm > interested enough to take it apart and put the 1542CF back in. The AH1540 was a nice card, when it came out some 10 years ago. I installed one in a project were a i386/25 PC became a machine capable of supporting 8 users, most working on accounting. It made a world of a difference compared to the same system with EIDE drives on a dumb controller (which could not deal with a multi- user load, since too much of the CPU went into data transfers). But an IDE drive (even at PIO 0) connected to a P5 will be faster than the AH1542. The ISA bus limits it severely, and the 8085 on the 1542 card is not a very fast SCSI protocol processor. But again: If you need to keep I/O load offloaded from the CPU, then bus-master SCSI does a good job of it. Even if it did not result in a shorter real-time taken. But since disk I/O is often correlated to a high CPU load (think about doing a large compile) the cycles spent on I/O are lost for data processing and lead to a longer real-time. Regards, STefan From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 05:10:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA29524 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 05:10:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA29513 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 05:10:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA16049 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 14:10:43 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id OAA14416 for current@freebsd.org; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 14:10:23 +0100 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.2/keltia-uucp-2.9) id LAA16669; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:59:07 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199611011059.LAA16669@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:59:06 +0100 From: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) To: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 2.1.5r -> current upgrade References: <199610312039.UAA03047@right.PCS> <199611010521.VAA19832@MindBender.serv.net> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.48.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT ctm#2632 In-Reply-To: <199611010521.VAA19832@MindBender.serv.net>; from Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com on Oct 31, 1996 21:21:02 -0800 Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com: > Less than four hours sounds a little *too* good for a *full* make > world on any 486. Are you sure you didn't have some things turned off > (like building profiled libs, or formatting man pages (I'm not even > sure FreeBSD does that, like NetBSD does))? I don't compile profiled libs and I generally run "make world" with NOCLEAN which skip "make cleandir". Formatting man pages if off in FreeBSD but we compress them. It don't think it could amount for 2 hours more. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 2.2-CURRENT #26: Sun Oct 27 19:39:11 MET 1996 From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 06:24:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA06184 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 06:24:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.hsc.wvu.edu (www.hsc.wvu.edu [157.182.105.122]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA06179 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 06:24:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jsigmon@localhost) by www.hsc.wvu.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA03566; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 09:25:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 09:25:19 -0500 (EST) From: Jeremy Sigmon To: Michael Hancock cc: Joe Greco , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Or publicize the denial of service attack in the news groups where > > > IMAP4 is discussed and hope someone uses it. > > > > TERRRY! That is perfectly irresponsible :-) > > On the contrary, this is perfectly responsible. > > I would also advocate getting c2 to promote a "Hack FreeBSD" contest to > see how many security holes people can find. > > I'd rather have an OS that endures whatever the random public can throw at > it. second this. Also I saw a posting that said FreeBSD is installed on 1% or less of all Unix machines. I look at it this way. Someone has to be the top 1%. :) From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 06:38:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA07058 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 06:38:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu (halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu [18.26.0.159]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA07045 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 06:38:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/19Aug95-0530PM) id AA29241; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 09:36:32 -0500 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 09:36:32 -0500 From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <9611011436.AA29241@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> To: Bill Fenner Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New Intel EtherExpress Pro/10 driver In-Reply-To: <96Oct31.155942pst.177476@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> References: <199610312153.NAA10719@freefall.freebsd.org> <96Oct31.155942pst.177476@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk < said: > It might be worth mentioning that the NetBSD driver for the Intel > EtherExpress (e.g. our ix driver) uses the ie driver, and apparently > has all the features ours doesn't (promiscuous, bpf, multicast). > Perhaps someone could port the ie changes... Ack! It's the DRIVER THAT WILL NOT DIE! -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | O Siem / We are all family / O Siem / We're all the same wollman@lcs.mit.edu | O Siem / The fires of freedom Opinions not those of| Dance in the burning flame MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| - Susan Aglukark and Chad Irschick From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 07:08:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA10943 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 07:08:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu (halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu [18.26.0.159]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA10930 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 07:08:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/19Aug95-0530PM) id AA28746; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 10:07:17 -0500 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 10:07:17 -0500 From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <9611011507.AA28746@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> To: Greg Lehey Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD current users), isdn@muc.ditec.de (FreeBSD ISDN Distribution List) Subject: Re: Any ISDN-BRI cards work under FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <199611010828.JAA19837@freebie.lemis.de> References: <199610311858.TAA16867@uriah.heep.sax.de> <199611010828.JAA19837@freebie.lemis.de> Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk < said: > The good news, however, is that 56 kb/s is not the only game in town. > It was only ever intended as an interim measure, and many areas supply > 64 kb/s. Could somebody in the US please comment? Most interoffice trunks in the US no longer use in-band signalling, so most ISDN-capable end offices will deliver a full 64-kb data path, and data calls are supposed to fail if there is not a 64-kb path. Voice calls will still succeed, with the missing bit thrown out (I think it gets forced to zero by the time you see it). The 56-kb service was only ever used for old, voice-engineered T-1 trunks, which did not have any sort of signalling associated with them. As more and more of the network has switched to SS#7, this has been rapidly disappearing, and now interoffice signalling is sent on a separate trunk. You can check the archives of TELECOM Digest for more information on this topic. -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | O Siem / We are all family / O Siem / We're all the same wollman@lcs.mit.edu | O Siem / The fires of freedom Opinions not those of| Dance in the burning flame MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| - Susan Aglukark and Chad Irschick From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 08:04:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA18341 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 08:04:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA18314; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 08:04:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id KAA00347; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 10:03:28 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199611011603.KAA00347@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Request to add this to FAQ re: swap space To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 10:03:28 -0600 (CST) Cc: gpalmer@freebsd.org, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, current@freebsd.org, dtc@scrooge.ee.swin.oz.au, dyson@freebsd.org, rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com In-Reply-To: <199611010742.SAA01117@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at Nov 1, 96 06:42:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >You probably want to raise DK_NDRIVE and a few other "less important but > >mildly annoying" parameters as well, such as MSG_BSIZE. > > Don't change MSG_BSIZE. Allocation of vm for it is broken except for > the default size. Hmmmmmmmm.... well I've been running with that for quite some time... set to 16K instead of 4K. ... JG From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 09:13:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA27083 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 09:13:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [199.201.191.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA26921 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 09:12:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from MindBender.serv.net by mx.serv.net (8.7.5/SERV Revision: 2.30) id JAA04908; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 09:10:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.serv.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA12840; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 09:10:21 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611011710.JAA12840@MindBender.serv.net> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.serv.net: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: David Kelly cc: Josef Grosch , current@freebsd.org, roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, jlemon@americantv.com, jgrosch@sirius.com Subject: Re: SCSI and IDE (was Re: 2.1.5r -> current upgrade) In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 01 Nov 96 01:12:00 -0600. Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 09:10:21 -0800 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Speaking of SCSI, I was playing today with IDE and SCSI on my new >AMD 586/133 PCI MB. The SCSI is on a 2940, bios rev 1.10 or so: [...] >On the IDE drive: >PeeCee: {872} time iozone 32 >0.2u 10.8s 0:44.54 24.7% 69+750k 374+542io 0pf+0w [...] >Now on to the SCSI drive: >0.2u 10.9s 0:18.17 61.5% 26+281k 363+533io 0pf+0w [...] >Notice how both took the same amount of system time? >(nit pickers: SCSI took 0.1 second longer.) >I'm disappointed. A bit. [...] >BTW, tried a 1542CF first thing after upgrading to the SNAP >and upgrading the MB from a 486DX33 that wouldn't host a bus >master card. Iozone reported thruput about the same as the IDE. >Didn't think to do the "time" part. And I don't think I'm >interested enough to take it apart and put the 1542CF back in. You wouldn't want to. The 1542 is *significantly* slower than the 2940. It's possible your old Seagate drive, coupled with a 486 CPU, isn't fast enough to show this, though. Now, SCSI vs. IDE. It's quite possible that an IDE drive could be faster in raw throughput than a SCSI drive. The drives themselves are the same. Just sequentially writing, then sequentially reading a large file, isn't going to show you anything that the SCSI interface does better. The problem is, the IDE drive dominates the CPU while it's working. Meaning, your CPU can't be doing anything else while it's transfering data to/from the IDE drive. Not so with the SCSI. Running your tests on a totally idle system won't show this difference. If you really want to see the difference, try running multiple bonnies at the same time. Especially try this where you have multiple IDE and SCSI drives. Try running a bonnie for each IDE drive simultaneously (or to a ccd of multiple IDE drives). Then do the exact same test to multiple SCSI drives. Or, start a couple of kernel compiles in other windows, then do a bonnie test, timing both the bonnie, and the kernel builds. I think you will find, all of a sudden, the system is much less congested, and is better able to keep all the various tasks busier. I suggest bonnie instead of iozone, because it does a better assortment of tests. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@MindBender.serv.net --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 09:37:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA02785 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 09:37:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaut.de (inet.plaut.de [194.39.177.166]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA02759 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 09:37:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from totum.plaut.de (totum.plaut.de [194.39.177.9]) by plaut.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA04962 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 18:37:40 +0100 Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by totum.plaut.de (8.8.2/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA00614 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 18:37:42 +0100 (MET) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 18:37:42 +0100 (MET) From: Michael Reifenberger To: FreeBSD-Current Subject: DEVFS-current does not show ccd ? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Current: >rm -rf /sys/compile/bla >config bla; (includes DEVFS) >cd /sys/compile/bla && make depend all install boot >ls -l /dev/ccd* ls: No match. Does anyone else see this? Bye! ---- Michael Reifenberger Plaut Software GmbH, R/3 Basis From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 10:12:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA08379 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 10:12:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from ican.net (ican.net [198.133.36.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA08349 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 10:12:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from gate.ican.net(really [198.133.36.2]) by ican.net via sendmail with esmtp id for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 13:12:01 -0500 (EST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #1 built 1996-Jul-10) Received: (from smap@localhost) by gate.ican.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA03086 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 13:11:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from cabal.io.org(10.1.6.2) by gate.ican.net via smap (V1.3) id sma003084; Fri Nov 1 13:11:29 1996 Received: from localhost (taob@localhost) by cabal.io.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA06234 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 13:11:50 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: cabal.io.org: taob owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 13:11:50 -0500 (EST) From: Brian Tao To: FREEBSD-CURRENT-L Subject: tcpd-ish behaviour in named? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I don't know when this started, but it seems that the version of BIND that ships with current versions of FreeBSD will not reply to queries from hosts that lack reverse DNS. This "feature" doesn't seem to be present on our BSD/OS 2.01 name servers. Is this correct, or do I have another problem here? -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org, taob@ican.net) Senior Systems and Network Administrator, Internet Canada Corp. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 11:02:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA20962 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:02:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA20927; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:02:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA28205; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:56:48 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199611011856.LAA28205@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Any ISDN-BRI cards work under FreeBSD? To: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:56:48 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, questions@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org, isdn@muc.ditec.de In-Reply-To: <199611010818.JAA19813@freebie.lemis.de> from "Greg Lehey" at Nov 1, 96 09:18:21 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > My guesses: > > I'm surprised you need to guess. Yes, that's correct. People seem to > have problems understanding this one, so I'll go into a little more > detail: Heh. I didn't have to guess. I miss the days when CS students were forced to build bitslice machines and interface them to learn this sort of thing. For people into learning on their own, I suggest: Technical Apects of Data Communication McNeely (SP?) Digital Press It's a bit dated, and uses DDCMP as one of its examples, but it gives good coverage on everything from the Bell 103C standard to building a NULL-modem cable. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 11:05:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA21790 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:05:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA21777; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:05:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA28218; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:59:55 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199611011859.LAA28218@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: src/games/piano To: asami@freebsd.org (Satoshi Asami) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:59:55 -0700 (MST) Cc: jhs@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199611010929.BAA19472@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> from "Satoshi Asami" at Nov 1, 96 01:29:38 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >> ls /usr/src/games/piano > total 7 > 1 CVS/ 1 Makefile 1 README 1 piano.6 3 piano.c You aliased "ls" to an "ls -i"? Hee hee... just kidding: but it'd be a bit less opaque if you told us your ls option was for "blocks"... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 11:49:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA24864 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:49:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from dcs.stu.rpi.edu (kdupuis@dcs.stu.rpi.edu [128.113.161.29]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA24853 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:49:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (kdupuis@localhost) by dcs.stu.rpi.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA02475 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 14:48:56 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 14:48:55 -0500 (EST) From: "Kenneth J. Dupuis" To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: 3c590 problem Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk We're seeing really strange behavior on a very fast machine that looks like it has something to do with the networking code. Here's the machine's specs followed by the problem: Intel Endeavor motherboard Intel Pentium 100MHz CPU 512KB cache 32MB EDO RAM 1.0GB Fast SCSI-2 Seagate 51080N hard drive Adaptec 2940U Ultra SCSI PCI controller card 3Com 3c590 10BaseT PCI ethernet card FreeBSD 2.2-961014-SNAP The machine is connected to 10BaseT which goes through an ethernet switch to our 100Mbps FDDI campus backbone. Sustained speeds of 400KB/sec to and from the Internet to this machine are not uncommon for long periods of time. The problem is when someone does an FTP or some other form of a raw transfer into or out of the machine, the networking code seems to hang. The machine becomes "unpingable" and pings from the machine usually result in a "no buffer space available" message. The machine seems to work fine with a standard 16-bit ISA 3c509 card. We've also tried FreeBSD 2.1.5-RELEASE. Any ideas? We need the machine to run with a 3c590, due to the amount of traffic that goes in and out of it. TIA, Kenneth J. Dupuis From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 12:33:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA00478 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 12:33:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA00447 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 12:32:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.7.6/8.6.5) with SMTP id MAA21095; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 12:29:46 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611012029.MAA21095@root.com> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.root.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Jeremy Sigmon cc: Michael Hancock , Joe Greco , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 01 Nov 1996 09:25:19 EST." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 12:29:46 -0800 Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Also I saw a posting that said FreeBSD is installed on 1% or less of all Unix >machines. I look at it this way. Someone has to be the top 1%. For what it's worth, the current estimates for FreeBSD use is around 100,000 machines. This is based on a variety of factors like CDROM sales figures, number of downloads from certain archive machines, number of people on the mailing lists, amount of email on those lists, Usenet newsgroup volume, etc., etc., and scaled to other estimates for similar 'products' like Linux. Linus recently estimated around 1/2 million copies of Linux installed, and everything I've seen seems to indicate about 5:1 ratio of Linux to FreeBSD, but this ratio is narrowing as the Linux 'market' becomes saturated. In any case, I think this is more than 1% of the Unix market. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 12:44:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA03260 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 12:44:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from peedub.gj.org (newpc.muc.ditec.de [194.120.126.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA03177 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 12:43:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from peedub.gj.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by peedub.gj.org (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA13493; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 21:42:00 GMT Message-Id: <199611012142.VAA13493@peedub.gj.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.7 5/3/96 To: Greg Lehey cc: FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD current users), isdn@muc.ditec.de (FreeBSD ISDN Distribution List) Subject: Re: Any ISDN-BRI cards work under FreeBSD? Reply-To: Gary Jennejohn In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 01 Nov 1996 09:20:59 +0100." <199611010821.JAA19826@freebie.lemis.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 21:41:59 +0000 From: Gary Jennejohn Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey writes: >Gary Jennejohn writes: >> J Wunsch writes: >>>As garyj@frt.dec.com wrote: >>> >>>> I'm going to be in California from Nov 7 til Nov 28 and would be more >>>> than willing to bring a pair of (ISA) cards from Germany and try to get th >e >>>> bisdn code working in the US. I already asked Jordan, but he can't >>>> accomodate me. Is there anyone in the Bay Area who has ISDN and a pair >>>> of boxes who'd be willing to make them available for this ? >>> >>>Don't forget to carry an NT with you. I think in the US, unlike >>>Europe, NTs are not owned by the Telco's and thus are often integrated >>>into the peripherals. >> >> yeah, Hellmuth Michaelis pointed this out in no uncertain terms ! I >> guess it won't be practical, so I hereby retract my request. > >Why? You were looking for somebody who already has an ISDN line. Now >you're looking for somebody with an ISDN line and an NT. > I decided it wasn't worth the hassle of getting a carnet for 2 boards only to discover that the cards won't work because they use an S0 interface and the US uses Uk0. I wasn't really aware of the difference until Hellmuth mentioned it. --- Gary Jennejohn Home - Gary.Jennejohn@munich.netsurf.de Work - gjennejohn@frt.dec.com From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 12:44:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA03482 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 12:44:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA03437 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 12:44:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.7.6/8.6.5) with SMTP id MAA21140; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 12:42:30 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611012042.MAA21140@root.com> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.root.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Kenneth J. Dupuis" cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 3c590 problem In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 01 Nov 1996 14:48:55 EST." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 12:42:30 -0800 Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Any ideas? We need the machine to run with a 3c590, due to the amount of >traffic that goes in and out of it. The 3c590 driver is buggy. The driver for the PCI SMC/DEC/D-link/etc, cards works quite well, however. Pretty much anything with a DEC DC21040 or DC21140 chip on it. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 13:46:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA24615 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 13:46:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from ravenock.cybercity.dk (disn33.cybercity.dk [194.16.57.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA24494 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 13:46:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ravenock.cybercity.dk (8.8.2/8.7.3) id VAA03731; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 21:43:57 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199611012043.VAA03731@ravenock.cybercity.dk> Subject: Re: 3c590 problem To: kdupuis@dcs.stu.rpi.edu (Kenneth J. Dupuis) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 21:43:46 +0100 (MET) From: "Soren Schmidt" Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Kenneth J. Dupuis" at Nov 1, 96 02:48:55 pm From: sos@freebsd.org Reply-to: sos@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Kenneth J. Dupuis who wrote: > > The machine is connected to 10BaseT which goes through an ethernet switch > to our 100Mbps FDDI campus backbone. Sustained speeds of 400KB/sec to and > from the Internet to this machine are not uncommon for long periods of > time. > > The problem is when someone does an FTP or some other form of a raw > transfer into or out of the machine, the networking code seems to hang. > The machine becomes "unpingable" and pings from the machine usually result > in a "no buffer space available" message. The machine seems to work fine > with a standard 16-bit ISA 3c509 card. > > We've also tried FreeBSD 2.1.5-RELEASE. > > Any ideas? We need the machine to run with a 3c590, due to the amount of > traffic that goes in and out of it. Try the new improved driver in incoming on freefall.freebsd.org, see if that helps... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Søren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team Even more code to hack -- will it ever end .. From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 13:52:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA27182 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 13:52:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA27125 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 13:52:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id WAA23458; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 22:51:49 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id WAA03011; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 22:51:48 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id VAA23065; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 21:52:36 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199611012052.VAA23065@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Any ISDN-BRI cards work under FreeBSD? To: FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.ORG, isdn@muc.ditec.de Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 21:52:36 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199611010818.JAA19813@freebie.lemis.de> from Greg Lehey at "Nov 1, 96 09:18:21 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Greg Lehey wrote: > Synchronous transmission is block oriented. Various techniques are > used to recognize the beginning and end of the block, and all the data > in a block are sent without any delay between the bits. When > transmitting 8 bit bytes (octets), there's a ratio of 8 bits per > octet, so 64 kbps becomes 8 kB/s. I think that's not 100 % correct. You've still got some flagging in HDLC (01111110 IIRC) which needs to be escaped whenever the flag occurs within the data stream. However, while the overhead for async transmission is >= 25 % (at least 2 bits per 8 data bits), it's much lower for sync transmission (but dependant on the data pattern). -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 14:10:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA01882 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 14:10:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from red.jnx.com (red.jnx.com [208.197.169.254]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA01873 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 14:10:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from base.jnx.com (base.jnx.com [208.197.169.238]) by red.jnx.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA11578; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 14:09:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from pst@localhost) by base.jnx.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id OAA06066; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 14:09:31 -0800 (PST) To: mickey@gw-deadnet.snafu.de (Andreas S. Wetzel) Cc: current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Strange syscons behaviour in -current? References: From: Paul Traina Date: 01 Nov 1996 14:09:31 -0800 In-Reply-To: mickey@gw-deadnet.snafu.de's message of 30 Oct 96 16:35:41 GMT Message-ID: <7yg22t5uxw.fsf@base.jnx.com> Lines: 2 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.2.25/XEmacs 19.14 Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Did you complle in SC_KBD_PROBE_WORKS? If so, your console is on your serial port at this point. From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 14:44:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA14109 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 14:44:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA14086 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 14:44:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id JAA06222; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 09:13:57 +1030 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611012243.JAA06222@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: 3c590 problem To: kdupuis@dcs.stu.rpi.edu (Kenneth J. Dupuis) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 09:13:56 +1030 (CST) Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Kenneth J. Dupuis" at Nov 1, 96 02:48:55 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Kenneth J. Dupuis stands accused of saying: > > Any ideas? We need the machine to run with a 3c590, due to the amount of > traffic that goes in and out of it. You "need" to replace the 3c590 with a Digital DC2104x-based adapter (SMC Etherpower PCI, Kingston, D-Link, not Compex), or you can try the new 'vx' driver that's been discussed on -hackers recently. (I'm not sure what makes you think that a '590 is the only card you can use to sustain that sort of throughput; you could do it with an NE2000...) > Kenneth J. Dupuis -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 14:46:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA15130 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 14:46:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from dcs.stu.rpi.edu (kdupuis@dcs.stu.rpi.edu [128.113.161.29]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA15115 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 14:46:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (kdupuis@localhost) by dcs.stu.rpi.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA03085; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:46:01 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:46:01 -0500 (EST) From: "Kenneth J. Dupuis" To: Michael Smith cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: 3c590 problem In-Reply-To: <199611012243.JAA06222@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 2 Nov 1996, Michael Smith wrote: > (I'm not sure what makes you think that a '590 is the only card you can > use to sustain that sort of throughput; you could do it with an NE2000...) There are multiple cards in the machine, and that kind of traffic multiplied will kill an ISA bus. Peaks of 1MB/sec are quite common. From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 15:43:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA05186 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 15:43:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA05164 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 15:43:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.2/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id XAA11305 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 23:42:56 GMT Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 08:42:56 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: current@freebsd.org Subject: Building imapd In-Reply-To: <199611012029.MAA21095@root.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk make neb -DIGNORE_LOCK_EACCES_ERRORS Is there anything else specific to FreeBSD? Regards, Mike Hancock From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 15:53:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA07952 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 15:53:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA07748 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 15:52:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id AAA26430; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 00:51:37 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA05701; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 00:51:37 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id AAA24119; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 00:38:16 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199611012338.AAA24119@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: 3c590 problem To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD-current users) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 00:38:16 +0100 (MET) Cc: kdupuis@dcs.stu.rpi.edu (Kenneth J. Dupuis) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from "Kenneth J. Dupuis" at "Nov 1, 96 05:46:01 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Kenneth J. Dupuis wrote: > > (I'm not sure what makes you think that a '590 is the only card you can > > use to sustain that sort of throughput; you could do it with an NE2000...) > > There are multiple cards in the machine, and that kind of traffic > multiplied will kill an ISA bus. Peaks of 1MB/sec are quite common. Still no justification for the 3Com one. Re-read Michael's mail: he suggested you using a DEC-2104[01] based card. In case you don't know, they are also PCI parts. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 16:22:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA13068 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 16:22:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from cenotaph.snafu.de (root@gw-deadnet.snafu.de [194.121.229.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA13050 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 16:22:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by cenotaph.snafu.de from deadline.snafu.de using smtp id m0vJTqY-000ZpiC; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 01:21:58 +0100 (MET) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #1) Received: by deadline.snafu.de id m0vJTqX-00080FC; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 01:21:57 +0100 (MET) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #1) Message-Id: From: root@deadline.snafu.de (Andreas S. Wetzel) Subject: Re: Strange syscons behaviour in -current? To: pst@jnx.com (Paul Traina) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 01:21:57 +0100 (MET) Cc: mickey@gw-deadnet.snafu.de, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <7yg22t5uxw.fsf@base.jnx.com> from Paul Traina at "Nov 1, 96 02:09:31 pm" Organization: A world stranger than you have ever imagined. X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL13] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi! --- Paul Traina writes: ] Did you complle in SC_KBD_PROBE_WORKS? If so, your console is on your ] serial port at this point. No I didn't. I compiled it as I usually did but added a line options USERCONFIG to it. My other two machines which have a VGA color display do work properly. So I would think it is something related to the VGA monochrome display. Regards, Mickey -- (__) (@@) Andreas S. Wetzel E-mail: mickey@deadline.snafu.de /-------\/ Utrechter Strasse 41 Web: http://deadline.snafu.de/ / | || 13347 Berlin Fon: <+4930> 456 066 90 * ||----|| Germany Fax: <+4930> 456 066 91/92 ~~ ~~ From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 17:21:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA22409 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:21:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwnexus.wa.com (nwnexus.wa.com [192.135.191.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA22386 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:21:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from main.statsci.com by nwnexus.wa.com with SMTP id AA07650 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:19:47 -0800 Received: from statsci.com [206.63.206.184] with smtp by main.statsci.com with smtp (/\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1 #29.3 #3) id m0vJSIE-0003yOC; Fri, 1 Nov 96 14:42 PST Message-Id: X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: dg@root.com Cc: Jeremy Sigmon , Michael Hancock , Joe Greco , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) References: <199611012029.MAA21095@root.com> In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 01 Nov 1996 12:29:46 -0800." <199611012029.MAA21095@root.com> Reply-To: scott@statsci.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 14:42:24 -0800 From: Scott Blachowicz Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk David Greenman wrote: > ... > everything I've seen seems to indicate about 5:1 ratio of Linux to FreeBSD, > but this ratio is narrowing as the Linux 'market' becomes saturated. > In any case, I think this is more than 1% of the Unix market. That means around 17% of part of the Free PC Unix market...anyone have market numbers for Sun, HP, SGI, IBM, DEC, et al Unix workstations, then don't forget the other free *BSDs, SCO and whatever PC SVR4's there are... Seems to me that 1% of all that is a lot of systems... Scott Blachowicz Ph: 206/283-8802x240 Mathsoft (Data Analysis Products Div) 1700 Westlake Ave N #500 scott@statsci.com Seattle, WA USA 98109 Scott.Blachowicz@seaslug.org From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 18:24:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA02828 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 18:24:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA02756 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 18:24:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id TAA28908; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 19:17:53 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199611020217.TAA28908@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Building imapd To: michaelh@cet.co.jp (Michael Hancock) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 19:17:53 -0700 (MST) Cc: current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Michael Hancock" at Nov 2, 96 08:42:56 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > make neb -DIGNORE_LOCK_EACCES_ERRORS > > Is there anything else specific to FreeBSD? As far as I can tell, no. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 21:15:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA26624 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 21:15:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA26612 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 21:15:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id PAA06637; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 15:45:24 +1030 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611020515.PAA06637@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: 3c590 problem To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 15:45:23 +1030 (CST) Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, kdupuis@dcs.stu.rpi.edu In-Reply-To: <199611012338.AAA24119@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at Nov 2, 96 00:38:16 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch stands accused of saying: > > > > (I'm not sure what makes you think that a '590 is the only card you can > > > use to sustain that sort of throughput; you could do it with an NE2000...) > > > > There are multiple cards in the machine, and that kind of traffic > > multiplied will kill an ISA bus. Peaks of 1MB/sec are quite common. Fair enough; that justifies a PCI card of some description. > Still no justification for the 3Com one. Re-read Michael's mail: he > suggested you using a DEC-2104[01] based card. In case you don't > know, they are also PCI parts. ... and perhaps I should have been clearer. I suspect that the 590 as a card is quite OK, but a number of Unices have problems with them, and the 'vx' driver isn't quite up to snuff yet. If this sytem is mission-critical (and it sounds like it is), the extremely robust and well-tested 'de' driver, and the very cheap cards that it supports are a more sensible choice. (Note to australian consumers : KTX are selling a Tulip-based card that can be had for around AU$80 ex; we now have a few of these and they work just fine. BNC/UTP, model is (IIRC) EN5100) > cheers, J"org -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 23:34:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA16525 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 23:34:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from dcs.stu.rpi.edu (kdupuis@dcs.stu.rpi.edu [128.113.161.29]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA16493 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 23:34:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (kdupuis@localhost) by dcs.stu.rpi.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA03522 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 02:34:00 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 02:34:00 -0500 (EST) From: "Kenneth J. Dupuis" To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 3c590 problem In-Reply-To: <199611012338.AAA24119@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 2 Nov 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > > > (I'm not sure what makes you think that a '590 is the only card you can > > > use to sustain that sort of throughput; you could do it with an NE2000...) > > > > There are multiple cards in the machine, and that kind of traffic > > multiplied will kill an ISA bus. Peaks of 1MB/sec are quite common. > > Still no justification for the 3Com one. Re-read Michael's mail: he > suggested you using a DEC-2104[01] based card. In case you don't > know, they are also PCI parts. Actually, I believe I am correct. He suggested a NE2000 card, which is 16-bit ISA, rather than a 3Com 3c590, which is PCI. I do see the point in using a SMC card, which is also PCI like the 3c590, but the NE2000 doesn't "belong" here; it is not PCI. All I'm saying is the cards must be PCI; I don't care what brand, as long as its fast. From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 23:40:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA17131 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 23:40:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from dcs.stu.rpi.edu (kdupuis@dcs.stu.rpi.edu [128.113.161.29]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA17118 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 23:40:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (kdupuis@localhost) by dcs.stu.rpi.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA03538 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 02:39:18 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 02:39:18 -0500 (EST) From: "Kenneth J. Dupuis" To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 3c590 problem In-Reply-To: <199611020515.PAA06637@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 2 Nov 1996, Michael Smith wrote: > Fair enough; that justifies a PCI card of some description. Agreed. > ... and perhaps I should have been clearer. I suspect that the 590 as > a card is quite OK, but a number of Unices have problems with them, > and the 'vx' driver isn't quite up to snuff yet. If this sytem is > mission-critical (and it sounds like it is), the extremely robust and > well-tested 'de' driver, and the very cheap cards that it supports > are a more sensible choice. I see. I will check into that first thing on Monday. From owner-freebsd-current Fri Nov 1 23:55:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA19002 for current-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 23:55:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from ravenock.cybercity.dk (disn54.cybercity.dk [194.16.57.54]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA18992 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 23:55:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ravenock.cybercity.dk (8.8.2/8.7.3) id IAA06605; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 08:57:37 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199611020757.IAA06605@ravenock.cybercity.dk> Subject: Re: Strange syscons behaviour in -current? To: root@deadline.snafu.de (Andreas S. Wetzel) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 08:57:26 +0100 (MET) From: "Soren Schmidt" Cc: pst@jnx.com, mickey@gw-deadnet.snafu.de, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Andreas S. Wetzel" at Nov 2, 96 01:21:57 am From: sos@FreeBSD.org Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Andreas S. Wetzel who wrote: > > Hi! > --- > > Paul Traina writes: > > ] Did you complle in SC_KBD_PROBE_WORKS? If so, your console is on your > ] serial port at this point. > > No I didn't. I compiled it as I usually did but added a line > > options USERCONFIG > > to it. My other two machines which have a VGA color display do work > properly. So I would think it is something related to the VGA monochrome > display. It is, I'm not sure what has happened yet, but I'm investigating. You could try uncommenting the comment starting in line 2354, that might do it, but I'd like to solve that differently... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Søren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team Even more code to hack -- will it ever end .. From owner-freebsd-current Sat Nov 2 00:26:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA21014 for current-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 00:26:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA21005 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 00:26:16 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Lehey Received: from freebie.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0vJbPA-000QqEC; Sat, 2 Nov 96 09:26 MET Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.de (8.8.2/8.6.12) id JAA17841; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 09:09:13 +0100 (MET) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Message-Id: <199611020809.JAA17841@freebie.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Any ISDN-BRI cards work under FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <199611012142.VAA13493@peedub.gj.org> from Gary Jennejohn at "Nov 1, 96 09:41:59 pm" To: Gary.Jennejohn@munich.netsurf.de Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 09:09:12 +0100 (MET) Cc: FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD current users), isdn@muc.ditec.de (FreeBSD ISDN Distribution List) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Gary Jennejohn writes: > Greg Lehey writes: >>Gary Jennejohn writes: >>> J Wunsch writes: >>>>As garyj@frt.dec.com wrote: >>>> >>>>> I'm going to be in California from Nov 7 til Nov 28 and would be more >>>>> than willing to bring a pair of (ISA) cards from Germany and try to get th >>e >>>>> bisdn code working in the US. I already asked Jordan, but he can't >>>>> accomodate me. Is there anyone in the Bay Area who has ISDN and a pair >>>>> of boxes who'd be willing to make them available for this ? >>>> >>>>Don't forget to carry an NT with you. I think in the US, unlike >>>>Europe, NTs are not owned by the Telco's and thus are often integrated >>>>into the peripherals. >>> >>> yeah, Hellmuth Michaelis pointed this out in no uncertain terms ! I >>> guess it won't be practical, so I hereby retract my request. >> >>Why? You were looking for somebody who already has an ISDN line. Now >>you're looking for somebody with an ISDN line and an NT. >> > > I decided it wasn't worth the hassle of getting a carnet for 2 boards only > to discover that the cards won't work because they use an S0 interface and > the US uses Uk0. I wasn't really aware of the difference until Hellmuth > mentioned it. It's certainly not worth the trouble of getting a carnet. I've never done anything like that. Just take them in with you, as used devices they're below the limit for imports for personal use. Maybe I'm not explaining myself well enough: if somebody in the US has an NT (and I would guess that anybody using both an ISDN phone and a TA would do so; people please correct me if I'm wrong), you'll interface to an S bus, not a Uk0. Greg From owner-freebsd-current Sat Nov 2 01:52:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA27521 for current-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 01:52:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA27503 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 01:52:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id KAA09690 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 10:51:44 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA01937 for freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 10:51:43 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id KAA27239 for freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 10:26:06 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199611020926.KAA27239@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: 3c590 problem To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD-current users) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 10:26:06 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from "Kenneth J. Dupuis" at "Nov 2, 96 02:34:00 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Kenneth J. Dupuis wrote: > Actually, I believe I am correct. He suggested a NE2000 card, which is > 16-bit ISA, rather than a 3Com 3c590, which is PCI. I do see the point in > using a SMC card, which is also PCI like the 3c590, but the NE2000 doesn't > "belong" here; it is not PCI. There are even PCI NE2000 clones around now, but you're right, they are behaving poorer than things like the Tulip-based ones. I think Michael was merely refering to the fact that the `ed' driver is much more stable than the `vx' driver. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-current Sat Nov 2 09:42:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA02415 for current-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 09:42:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA02398; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 09:41:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.7.6/8.6.9) id EAA18869; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 04:39:48 +1100 Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 04:39:48 +1100 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199611021739.EAA18869@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@zeta.org.au, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com Subject: Re: Request to add this to FAQ re: swap space Cc: current@freebsd.org, dtc@scrooge.ee.swin.oz.au, dyson@freebsd.org, gpalmer@freebsd.org, rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> Don't change MSG_BSIZE. Allocation of vm for it is broken except for >> the default size. > >Hmmmmmmmm.... well I've been running with that for quite some time... >set to 16K instead of 4K. This causes 3 semi-random active pages to be mapped to the end of the message buffer. Bruce From owner-freebsd-current Sat Nov 2 19:02:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA16298 for current-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 19:02:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from citrine.cyberstation.net (hannibal@citrine.cyberstation.net [205.167.0.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA16287 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 19:02:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (hannibal@localhost) by citrine.cyberstation.net (8.8.2/8.8.2) with SMTP id VAA25247 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 21:02:23 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 21:02:22 -0600 (CST) From: Dan Walters To: current@freebsd.org Subject: Anyone using afterstep? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'm using afterstep 1.0pre1, from the ports collection - probably about once or twice a day it tends to just lock up. All other apps still run find, but of course I can't switch windows, the window manager keys don't work, mouse pointer is stuck in some non-client area of the windows (like the title bar,) etc. (In other words, it seems to be the WM.) I've asked on the afterstep list, and none of them seem to be having problems, so I'm assuming it's something to do with FreeBSD (I'm sure they are all in Linux.) I'm running 2.2-CURRENT, last make world was about a week ago, XFree86 3.2 (it happened on 3.1.2G too.) I compiled with debugging and did a kill -11 to get a coredump just a second ago, but it didn't have a call stack so it didn't help me much. I don't really know how to go about debugging a WM. :) Is this happening to anyone else? Any ideas? ====================================================================== Dan Walters hannibal@cyberstation.net ====================================================================== From owner-freebsd-current Sat Nov 2 20:15:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA21075 for current-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 20:15:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from vinyl.quickweb.com (vinyl.quickweb.com [206.222.77.8]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA21068 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 20:15:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mark@localhost) by vinyl.quickweb.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA10914 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 23:13:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 23:13:39 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Mayo To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: /usr/obj size Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi all, I was thinking of finally using the new CVSup to get the latest -current tree (I'm currently running the August 2.2-SNAP) but, once again, I'm low on disk space :-( I asked this question several months ago when I built the -stable branch, but alas, my memory is terrible (my school marks prove it ;-)) and I forget the size of the /usr/obj directory. I'm hoping it is under 100MB so I can just mount up a zip drive (I'll have to pull it off my other PC) and build on that.. Also, how much disk space overhead will pulling in the latest branch incur? Gee, having no income (i.e. being a Univ. student) really sucks.... just 1 more gig is all I ask!! :-) TIA, -Mark P.S. Anyone have a rough estimate of how many MB the diffs between the August SNAP and -current is? I have to sup over a modem so it hurts.. There's probably a way of figuring this out with CVSup, right? I still haven't played with it, I'll have to take a peek tonight before I polute the lists with more dumb questions.. ------------------------------------------- | Mark Mayo mark@quickweb.com | | RingZero Comp. www.quickweb.com | ------------------------------------------- "To iterate is human, to recurse divine." - L. Peter Deutsch From owner-freebsd-current Sat Nov 2 20:42:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA22202 for current-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 20:42:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from dcs.stu.rpi.edu (kdupuis@dcs.stu.rpi.edu [128.113.161.29]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA22196 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 20:42:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (kdupuis@localhost) by dcs.stu.rpi.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA04487 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 23:42:26 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 23:42:26 -0500 (EST) From: "Kenneth J. Dupuis" To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: /usr/obj size In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 2 Nov 1996, Mark Mayo wrote: > August SNAP and -current is? I have to sup over a modem so it hurts.. About how long would that take at 10Mbps? From owner-freebsd-current Sat Nov 2 20:48:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA22428 for current-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 20:48:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA22418; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 20:48:21 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199611030448.UAA22418@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: /usr/obj size To: mark@quickweb.com (Mark Mayo) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 20:48:21 -0800 (PST) Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Mark Mayo" at Nov 2, 96 11:13:39 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mark Mayo wrote: > > > Hi all, I was thinking of finally using the new CVSup to get the latest > -current tree (I'm currently running the August 2.2-SNAP) but, once > again, I'm low on disk space :-( I asked this question several months > ago when I built the -stable branch, but alas, my memory is terrible (my > school marks prove it ;-)) and I forget the size of the /usr/obj > directory. I'm hoping it is under 100MB so I can just mount up a zip drive > (I'll have to pull it off my other PC) and build on that.. Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on /dev/sd3f 424591 95491 295133 24% /usr/obj /dev/sd3g 230345 177091 34827 84% /usr/src > Also, how much disk space overhead will pulling in the latest branch > incur? not sure, but i know hte size of the cvs tree (not including ports, but it does include the smp tree) Aspen:[110] cd /home/ Aspen:[111] du -s ncvs > > Gee, having no income (i.e. being a Univ. student) really sucks.... just 1 > more gig is all I ask!! :-) > > TIA, > -Mark > > P.S. Anyone have a rough estimate of how many MB the diffs between the > August SNAP and -current is? I have to sup over a modem so it hurts.. > There's probably a way of figuring this out with CVSup, right? I still > haven't played with it, I'll have to take a peek tonight before I polute > the lists with more dumb questions.. use CVSup, there is no comparision between it and sup. the source tree was just tagged with RELENG_2-2. sup will tranfer the entire tree! cvsup just adds a little to each file, give me an effective transfer rate of ~30kBps over a 14.4 modem ;) thank you John Polstra! jmb -- Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD--4.4BSD Unix for PC clones, source included. http://www.freebsd.org/ PGP 2.6.2 Fingerprint: 31 57 41 56 06 C1 40 13 C5 1C E3 E5 DC 62 0E FB From owner-freebsd-current Sat Nov 2 21:32:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA24714 for current-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 21:32:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from po1.glue.umd.edu (po1.glue.umd.edu [129.2.128.44]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA24707 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 21:32:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from protocol.eng.umd.edu (protocol.eng.umd.edu [129.2.98.180]) by po1.glue.umd.edu (8.8.2/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA23282; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 00:32:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by protocol.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA04851; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 00:32:38 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: protocol.eng.umd.edu: chuckr owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 00:32:38 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@protocol.eng.umd.edu To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: Mark Mayo , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: /usr/obj size In-Reply-To: <199611030448.UAA22418@freefall.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 2 Nov 1996, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > Mark Mayo wrote: > > > > > > Hi all, I was thinking of finally using the new CVSup to get the latest > > -current tree (I'm currently running the August 2.2-SNAP) but, once > > again, I'm low on disk space :-( I asked this question several months > > ago when I built the -stable branch, but alas, my memory is terrible (my > > school marks prove it ;-)) and I forget the size of the /usr/obj > > directory. I'm hoping it is under 100MB so I can just mount up a zip drive > > (I'll have to pull it off my other PC) and build on that.. > > Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on > /dev/sd3f 424591 95491 295133 24% /usr/obj > /dev/sd3g 230345 177091 34827 84% /usr/src > > > Also, how much disk space overhead will pulling in the latest branch > > incur? > > not sure, but i know hte size of the cvs tree (not including ports, but > it does include the smp tree) Huh? I don't think that's true, Jon. Where is it located in the tree? > > Aspen:[110] cd /home/ > Aspen:[111] du -s ncvs > > > > > Gee, having no income (i.e. being a Univ. student) really sucks.... just 1 > > more gig is all I ask!! :-) > > > > TIA, > > -Mark > > > > P.S. Anyone have a rough estimate of how many MB the diffs between the > > August SNAP and -current is? I have to sup over a modem so it hurts.. > > There's probably a way of figuring this out with CVSup, right? I still > > haven't played with it, I'll have to take a peek tonight before I polute > > the lists with more dumb questions.. > > use CVSup, there is no comparision between it and sup. > the source tree was just tagged with RELENG_2-2. > sup will tranfer the entire tree! cvsup just adds a little to > each file, give me an effective transfer rate of ~30kBps > over a 14.4 modem ;) > > thank you John Polstra! > > jmb > -- > Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG > FreeBSD--4.4BSD Unix for PC clones, source included. http://www.freebsd.org/ > PGP 2.6.2 Fingerprint: 31 57 41 56 06 C1 40 13 C5 1C E3 E5 DC 62 0E FB > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 9120 Edmonston Ct #302 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and n3lxx, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 2.2 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Sat Nov 2 22:49:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA00735 for current-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 22:49:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA00727 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 22:49:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 0.56 #1) id E0vJwNE-0000xW-00; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 23:49:36 -0700 To: Mark Mayo Subject: Re: /usr/obj size Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 02 Nov 1996 23:13:39 EST." References: Date: Sat, 02 Nov 1996 23:49:36 -0700 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message Mark Mayo writes: : school marks prove it ;-)) and I forget the size of the /usr/obj : directory. I'm hoping it is under 100MB so I can just mount up a zip drive : (I'll have to pull it off my other PC) and build on that.. /usr/obj is 86M long for me, I don't know if that has a full build or not. Your ZIP drive will be **SLOW** and you will get frustrated by long make world times :-(. : Also, how much disk space overhead will pulling in the latest branch : incur? A full source tree runs about 138M or so. : Gee, having no income (i.e. being a Univ. student) really sucks.... just 1 : more gig is all I ask!! :-) I'm very happy with my JAZ drive, but it is a little on the slow side. About 70% as fast as my Quantum Prodrive 1225, near as I can tell. When I got mine, the ZIP drives were $199 and the JAZ drives had just dropped to $399 internal so I figured 10x the storage for 2x the price was hard to say no to. Warner From owner-freebsd-current Sat Nov 2 22:54:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA00925 for current-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 22:54:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA00910 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 22:53:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 0.56 #1) id E0vJwRE-0000xz-00; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 23:53:44 -0700 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Subject: Re: /usr/obj size Cc: mark@quickweb.com (Mark Mayo), freebsd-current@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 02 Nov 1996 20:48:21 PST." <199611030448.UAA22418@freefall.freebsd.org> References: <199611030448.UAA22418@freefall.freebsd.org> Date: Sat, 02 Nov 1996 23:53:44 -0700 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199611030448.UAA22418@freefall.freebsd.org> "Jonathan M. Bresler" writes: : use CVSup, there is no comparision between it and sup. : the source tree was just tagged with RELENG_2-2. : sup will tranfer the entire tree! cvsup just adds a little to : each file, give me an effective transfer rate of ~30kBps : over a 14.4 modem ;) If you have a tinybaud connection, I've been very happy with ctm. However, I have 24x7 connectivity, so most of it comes to me in otherwise unused bandwidth. Since I have my mail setup to automatically update my CVS tree (not my source tree), I always have nearly up to the minute sources available. CTM is a push model, and CVSup is a pull model. Which one you use is a matter of taste. However, one thing is clear: You need about 1.5G of disk space to have an effective development machine. I have 2.25G on my machine, and things get a little cramped when I try to do both OpenBSD things and FreeBSD things at the same time. Warner