From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Oct 13 07:08:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA13248 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Oct 1996 07:08:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sequent.kiae.su (sequent.kiae.su [193.125.152.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA13236 for ; Sun, 13 Oct 1996 07:08:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sequent.kiae.su id AA24870 (5.65.kiae-2 ); Sun, 13 Oct 1996 18:05:37 +0400 Received: by sequent.KIAE.su (UUMAIL/2.0); Sun, 13 Oct 96 18:05:36 +0400 Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.ru (8.7.6/8.7.3) id SAA00751; Sun, 13 Oct 1996 18:04:11 +0400 (MSD) Message-Id: <199610131404.SAA00751@nagual.ru> Subject: Re: need mh users with non-latin character sets to test MH patches... In-Reply-To: <199610130624.XAA10424@precipice.shockwave.com> from "Paul Traina" at "Oct 12, 96 11:24:17 pm" To: pst@shockwave.com (Paul Traina) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 18:04:11 +0400 (MSD) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org From: "=?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?=" (Andrey A. Chernov) Organization: self X-Class: Fast X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I've got some patches for MH that purport to properly do RFC1342 decoding of > mail headers with non latin characters in them. Look at my From:, it always comes RFC11342 encoded > Failing that, Andrey, would you mind giving me the 10 second FAQ answer on > how to pretend I'm a Cyrillic freebsd user? Basically, you need 1) Uncomment 'Russian setup' example block into /etc/sysconfig 2) Uncomment 'Russian locale' into /etc/csh.login and /etc/profile Thats all on system level. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://www.nagual.ru/~ache/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Oct 13 09:44:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA24267 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Oct 1996 09:44:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dub-img-6.compuserve.com (dub-img-6.compuserve.com [149.174.206.136]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA24262 for ; Sun, 13 Oct 1996 09:44:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by dub-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id MAA07445; Sun, 13 Oct 1996 12:44:06 -0400 Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 12:16:51 -0400 From: M <106161.1577@compuserve.com> Subject: Help I provide To: FreeBSD Message-ID: <199610131244_MC1-AE2-B07B@compuserve.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I've some low-level hardware && C knwoledge. How can I help ? M. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Oct 13 10:26:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA26577 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Oct 1996 10:26:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from precipice.shockwave.com (ppp-206-170-5-85.rdcy01.pacbell.net [206.170.5.85]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA26569 for ; Sun, 13 Oct 1996 10:26:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shockwave.com (localhost.shockwave.com [127.0.0.1]) by precipice.shockwave.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA25210; Sun, 13 Oct 1996 10:26:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610131726.KAA25210@precipice.shockwave.com> To: "Андрей Чернов" (Andrey A. Chernov) cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: need mh users with non-latin character sets to test MH patches... In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 13 Oct 1996 18:04:11 +0400." <199610131404.SAA00751@nagual.ru> Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 10:26:24 -0700 From: Paul Traina Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Thanks, I got it working last night (hence the commits to MH). It's very cool, your name now shows up in Cyrlic instead of taking up the entire line in nonsense. Unfortunately, it looks like cut-and-paste in my xterm is not 8 bit clean, as I just tried to cut and paste and it came back with: From: "aNDREJ ~ERNOW" (Andrey A. Chernov) Hmmm... next step is to fix xterm or X11. :-) Regards, Paul From: "=?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?=" (Andrey A. Chernov >>) Subject: Re: need mh users with non-latin character sets to test MH patches.. >>. > I've got some patches for MH that purport to properly do RFC1342 decoding o >>f > mail headers with non latin characters in them. Look at my From:, it always comes RFC11342 encoded > Failing that, Andrey, would you mind giving me the 10 second FAQ answer on > how to pretend I'm a Cyrillic freebsd user? Basically, you need 1) Uncomment 'Russian setup' example block into /etc/sysconfig 2) Uncomment 'Russian locale' into /etc/csh.login and /etc/profile Thats all on system level. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://www.nagual.ru/~ache/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Oct 13 14:57:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA07953 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Oct 1996 14:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sovcom.kiae.su (sovcom.kiae.su [193.125.152.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA07947 for ; Sun, 13 Oct 1996 14:57:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sovcom.kiae.su id AA22018 (5.65.kiae-1 ); Mon, 14 Oct 1996 00:54:40 +0300 Received: by sovcom.KIAE.su (UUMAIL/2.0); Mon, 14 Oct 96 00:54:40 +0300 Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.ru (8.7.6/8.7.3) id BAA00413; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 01:53:32 +0400 (MSD) Message-Id: <199610132153.BAA00413@nagual.ru> Subject: Re: need mh users with non-latin character sets to test MH patches... In-Reply-To: <199610131726.KAA25210@precipice.shockwave.com> from "Paul Traina" at "Oct 13, 96 10:26:24 am" To: pst@shockwave.com (Paul Traina) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 01:53:31 +0400 (MSD) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org From: "=?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?=" (Andrey A. Chernov) Organization: self X-Class: Fast X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Thanks, I got it working last night (hence the commits to MH). > It's very cool, your name now shows up in Cyrlic instead of taking up > the entire line in nonsense. Elm is able to do it too, just set its default screen font to KOI8-R > Unfortunately, it looks like cut-and-paste in my xterm is not 8 bit clean, > as I just tried to cut and paste and it came back with: > > From: "aNDREJ ~ERNOW" (Andrey A. Chernov) > > Hmmm... next step is to fix xterm or X11. :-) You not mention X11 and it is different story. It isn't xterm problem, but missing X11 locale. You can Russify X11 too, see /usr/ports/russian/X.language After installing this port just remove default Xmodmap and move Russian fonts to last position in your /etc/XF86Config and it not affect your default ISO8859-1 setup. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://www.nagual.ru/~ache/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Oct 13 19:05:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA18171 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Oct 1996 19:05:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA18154 for ; Sun, 13 Oct 1996 19:05:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA11038; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 11:35:00 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199610140205.LAA11038@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Setting Up a Kernel Hacking Machine To: chiuk@cs.indiana.edu (Kenneth Chiu) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 11:34:58 +0930 (CST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610122011.PAA18989@moose.cs.indiana.edu> from "Kenneth Chiu" at Oct 12, 96 03:11:37 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Kenneth Chiu stands accused of saying: > > I'm interested in hacking some on the kernel, maybe work on a driver. > What's the recommended way to set up a single machine for this? Install the most recent -SNAP, make sure you have plenty of space on /var for kernel crash dumps. > I'm thinking along the lines of a set of partitions for running > 2.1.5-RELEASE that I would use for development, and a single partition > with -current or maybe -SNAP that I would use for testing. As a general rule, -current is stable enough for development. If you lurk on the -current list and avoid building new kernels for a day or so after people like John make major changes, it's actually very good. > So I would build from the 2.1.5 system into the -current partition, and > then reboot to the -current partition to test. Does this sound > workable? It could be done, but it would be a lot of (wasted IMHO) effort. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Oct 13 20:21:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA21678 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Oct 1996 20:21:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net ([198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA21673 for ; Sun, 13 Oct 1996 20:21:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA22718; Sun, 13 Oct 1996 22:20:39 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199610140320.WAA22718@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Setting Up a Kernel Hacking Machine To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 22:20:38 -0500 (EST) Cc: chiuk@cs.indiana.edu, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610140205.LAA11038@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Oct 14, 96 11:34:58 am Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > As a general rule, -current is stable enough for development. If you > lurk on the -current list and avoid building new kernels for a day or > so after people like John make major changes, it's actually very good. > I generally agree with that. We (I) do need help when I have made large VM changes though. I am going to resurrect my policy of warning people a day or so before any risky changes. When I do warn people, I really don't mind when they ask for me to put them off for a day or so. John From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Oct 13 23:09:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA29655 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Oct 1996 23:09:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz201.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz201.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA29612 for ; Sun, 13 Oct 1996 23:08:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz201.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id IAA01460 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 08:06:43 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id IAA01025 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 08:06:42 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA10051 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sat, 12 Oct 1996 22:49:22 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610122049.WAA10051@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: /sbin/init permission To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 22:49:22 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199610111145.MAA08420@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> from Luigi Rizzo at "Oct 11, 96 12:45:25 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (Moved from -committers to -hackers) As Luigi Rizzo wrote: > Changing permissions to /sbin/init has no > undesired side effects, so it thought it was a non controversial > change. Maybe I am wrong ? I'm not even sure whether this is a bug in NFS or not. If the file is executable, this should probably suffice. OTOH, i think with the current setup, it's almost impossible to have the root f/s exported without option root=0. > It is my impression that quite a few people are using the diskless > code -- mostly to administer labs etc. with many machines where > users have the habit of pushing the reset button when something > goes wrong. Every people I talked to has developed their own > solutions. > It would be nice if these efforts could be coordinated to produce > an easy "diskless" setup utility. The description in the handbook was sufficient for me to get my own setup going. However, what i've been missing was a good template that could serve as cpio input for how to clone the existing root f/s for a diskless client. A plain file list is probably too hard to maintain (each time a new file goes into /etc, this list has to be updated), so some kind of a script might be better. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 14 00:18:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA05686 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 00:18:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA05656; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 00:18:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id QAA13972; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 16:48:16 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199610140718.QAA13972@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: FreeBSD support in Northern Japan? To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 16:48:15 +0930 (CST) Cc: serious@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Yes, it's me again, looking for FreeBSD-aware consultants in odd corners of the world! We have been quite successful selling our hardware and services to the Communications Research Laboratory (CRL) in Japan. I can't tell you a lot about CRL, but if you are or know the sort of person I'm looking for then you will know them already 8) CRL recently installed one of our systems at Wakkanai, in the north of the country. CRL appear to have a fairly extensive internal network, but their actual in-house Unix knowledge appears to be fairly scanty, or at least well-distant from the section(s) that we are dealing with. At the field site where our equipment is located, they installed a Linux system to provide dialin facilities (for some unknown reason). The technician responsible for this apparently took about a day to get it set up, and we still have problems with it. (Not to mention that you login as 'root' when you dial in. Aigh!) Obviously that sort of thing is not at all helpful from our point of view. Now that the system is settling in, the scientists using it are starting to ask for more stuff, some of which we can manage over a slow link including three waypoints, a slow modem link and a Linux box, and some which would really benefit from personal attendance; eg. installation of extra software, printer configuration, integration with their WAN etc. We would like to be able to refer our customers within CRL to someone a little closer to home that is capable of this sort of work. I have every reason to believe that they are quite happy to pay for that sort of support, and we have every expectation of doing more business with CRL which might well mean more work there. In addition, we have other work in progress with Japanese customers on sites as widely spread as Pontianak (Indonesia) and Syowa Base (Antarctica), so a willingness to travel might be handy 8) If you think that you or your organisation or some other that you know would be interested in this sort of work, I'd like to hear from you about it. Obviously, you'll have to convince us that you can be trusted before we let you loose on our customers 8) Regards, -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 14 01:08:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA09716 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 01:08:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA09633 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 01:08:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id KAA05593; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 10:07:38 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA05553; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 10:07:37 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.6/8.6.9) id JAA04815; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 09:57:54 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610140757.JAA04815@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Setting Up a Kernel Hacking Machine To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 09:57:54 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: chiuk@cs.indiana.edu (Kenneth Chiu) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199610122011.PAA18989@moose.cs.indiana.edu> from Kenneth Chiu at "Oct 12, 96 03:11:37 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Kenneth Chiu wrote: > I'm interested in hacking some on the kernel, maybe work on a driver. > What's the recommended way to set up a single machine for this? > > I'm thinking along the lines of a set of partitions for running > 2.1.5-RELEASE that I would use for development, and a single partition > with -current or maybe -SNAP that I would use for testing. Keep with -current unless you really want to development things on the -stable branch. You might want to mirror the CVS tree also, this gives you the best flexibility. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 14 01:09:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA09764 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 01:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA09734 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 01:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id KAA05588; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 10:07:36 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA05552; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 10:07:35 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.6/8.6.9) id JAA04798; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 09:56:37 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610140756.JAA04798@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Serial console for FreeBSD? To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 09:56:37 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: durham@w2xo.pgh.pa.us (Jim Durham) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from Jim Durham at "Oct 12, 96 00:35:43 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jim Durham wrote: > >Better yet, patch your bootblocks to force a serial console. The > Does the console have to be on sio0 ? How does one > specify which com port if not ? The location, the speed, and the line behaviour (local line, modem signals not obeyed) is hardcoded in the bootblocks and in the kernel (sio.c, if i'm not mistaken). So yes, unless you wanna patch all this, it's hardcoded to sio0 and 9600 Bd. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 14 01:19:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA10699 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 01:19:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.pa-consulting.com (ns.pa-consulting.com [193.118.224.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA10689 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 01:19:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SMTPGATE.PA-CONSULTING.COM by ns.pa-consulting.com (8.6.4) id JAA08611; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 09:30:04 +0100 Received: by SMTPGATE.PA-CONSULTING.COM with Microsoft Mail id <32626C27@SMTPGATE.PA-CONSULTING.COM>; Mon, 14 Oct 96 09:36:55 PDT From: Duncan Barclay To: freebsd-hackers Subject: FS breaks when using ft. Date: Mon, 14 Oct 96 09:12:00 PDT Message-ID: <32626C27@SMTPGATE.PA-CONSULTING.COM> Encoding: 27 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi In preparing for upgrading from 2.1R to 2.1.5R I backed up my system to my floppy tape using ft and tar. I then run ft on this to just check the tape and get a contents listing. After doing this I found that a few files were corrupted on both of my partitions (/ and /usr). I then tried to reread these (with ft) to / in single user mode and with /usr mounted ro. This caused duplicate inodes to be created and references to block -1 (as stated from fsck). Nothing happened to /usr (so to fix these new problems I'm going to mount a mfs file system and have / ro). This is a little worrying to say the least! I have a UMC based 486 board, with a SGS 486DX2-66, 20meg ram, drives are both IDE hanging from a VESA IO card, also I have a NEC 8bit SCSI card, 3c509 standard VESA graphics. and fax modem. I running stock 2.1R with the patches to ft I sent in via send-pr a while back (should not cause this as they were only to do with adding extra table entries for travan sized tapes). Thanks Duncan Barclay From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 14 01:44:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA13413 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 01:44:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA13406 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 01:43:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id BAA20822 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 01:43:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id JAA12775; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 09:16:02 +0100 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199610140816.JAA12775@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Re: /sbin/init permission To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 09:16:01 +0100 (MET) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610122049.WAA10051@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at Oct 12, 96 10:49:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > As Luigi Rizzo wrote: > > > Changing permissions to /sbin/init has no > > undesired side effects, so it thought it was a non controversial > > change. Maybe I am wrong ? > > I'm not even sure whether this is a bug in NFS or not. If the file is > executable, this should probably suffice. OTOH, i think with the Don't think it' s a bug. The problem is that /sbin/init is accessed with root ID, and without root=0 the ID is mapped to nobody and access is denied. Besides, I seem to remember that you only need read permissions, not execute, for /sbin/init to be loaded correctly at startup. This probably means that that /sbin/init is loaded as data, not as an executable, by the kernel. > current setup, it's almost impossible to have the root f/s exported > without option root=0. Not impossible, I have done it many times, and have it working here -- a shared, readonly root without option root=0. Except for a small problem with vipw, other things work fine. > > It is my impression that quite a few people are using the diskless > > code -- mostly to administer labs etc. with many machines where > > users have the habit of pushing the reset button when something > > goes wrong. Every people I talked to has developed their own > > solutions. > > > It would be nice if these efforts could be coordinated to produce > > an easy "diskless" setup utility. > > The description in the handbook was sufficient for me to get my own > setup going. However, what i've been missing was a good template that I was talking about a shared root. This is what you need for a lab, you do not want to waste space & maintain directories for every client. Cheers Luigi ==================================================================== Luigi Rizzo Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione email: luigi@iet.unipi.it Universita' di Pisa tel: +39-50-568533 via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy) fax: +39-50-568522 http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ ==================================================================== From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 14 04:01:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA21266 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 04:01:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from home.winc.com (root@home.winc.com [204.178.182.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA21247; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 04:01:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phoenix.aristar.com (slip125.winc.com [204.178.182.125]) by home.winc.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA05844; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 07:00:59 -0400 Message-ID: <32621DC1.41C67EA6@aristar.com> Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 07:02:25 -0400 From: "Matthew A. Gessner" Organization: Aristar, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Roddie Hasan CC: hackers , FreeBSD Hardware group Subject: Re: AMD 586 runs FreeBSD just FINE References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Roddie Hasan wrote: > > Hi Matt, > > > I just bought one of those them there fancy shmancy CPU upgrades. I > > had an Intel 486/DX266 and upgraded to a AMD 586/133 from Ganberry via > > Micro Warehouse. For $140 I have a machine that runs about 2.5 x > > faster! > > I'm thinking of throwing one of those boards in my machine. (I currently > have a DX266 also). What did you set your cpu type to in the kernel > settings? I would assume 486, but I want to make sure. > > Ciao, Roddie I didn't change A THING! I just stuck the new CPU in the socket and rebooted. Pretty awesome. -- Matthew Gessner, Computer Scientist, Aristar, Inc. 302 N. Cleveland-Massillon Rd. Akron, OH 44333 Voice (330) 668-2267, Fax (330) 668-2961 From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 14 04:51:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA23185 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 04:51:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from whale.gu.kiev.ua (whale.gu.kiev.ua [193.124.51.77]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA23158; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 04:50:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from creator.gu.kiev.ua (stesin@creator.gu.kiev.ua [193.124.51.73]) by whale.gu.kiev.ua (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA80162; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 14:47:48 +0300 Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 14:47:45 +0300 (EET DST) From: Andrew Stesin X-Sender: stesin@creator.gu.kiev.ua To: "Matthew A. Gessner" cc: Roddie Hasan , hackers , FreeBSD Hardware group Subject: Re: AMD 586 runs FreeBSD just FINE In-Reply-To: <32621DC1.41C67EA6@aristar.com> Message-ID: X-NCC-RegID: ua.gu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, On Mon, 14 Oct 1996, Matthew A. Gessner wrote: > I didn't change A THING! I just stuck the new CPU in the socket and > rebooted. Pretty awesome. I think that this approach isn't too general. When a week ago I replaced an old non-Enhanced AMD 2/66 with AMD 5x133, I was forced to change many jumper settings on the board, according to it's manual... -- Best, Andrew Stesin nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 14 06:13:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA26298 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 06:13:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA26273; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 06:13:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id IAA23662; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 08:05:18 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610141305.IAA23662@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: AMD 586 runs FreeBSD just FINE To: stesin@gu.net (Andrew Stesin) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 08:05:18 -0500 (CDT) Cc: mgessner@aristar.com, roddie@ki.net, hackers@freebsd.org, hardware@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Stesin" at Oct 14, 96 02:47:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Hi, > > On Mon, 14 Oct 1996, Matthew A. Gessner wrote: > > > I didn't change A THING! I just stuck the new CPU in the socket and > > rebooted. Pretty awesome. > > I think that this approach isn't too general. When a week > ago I replaced an old non-Enhanced AMD 2/66 with AMD 5x133, > I was forced to change many jumper settings on the board, > according to it's manual... That's odd (I think)... I upgraded an ASUS SP3G board from a DX2/66 to a DX5/133 without a single jumper change... from the SP3G's point of view it was a _real_ fast DX2/66 :-) Dunno. ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 14 06:39:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA27650 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 06:39:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hp.com (hp.com [15.255.152.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA27644; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 06:39:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fakir.india.hp.com by hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA065350353; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 06:39:17 -0700 Received: from localhost by fakir.india.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA107472262; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 19:11:02 +0500 Message-Id: <199610141411.AA107472262@fakir.india.hp.com> To: Joe Greco Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: AMD 586 runs FreeBSD just FINE In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 14 Oct 1996 08:05:18 EST." <199610141305.IAA23662@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 19:11:02 +0500 From: A JOSEPH KOSHY Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>> "Joe Greco" writes > That's odd (I think)... I upgraded an ASUS SP3G board from a DX2/66 > to a DX5/133 without a single jumper change... from the SP3G's point > of view it was a _real_ fast DX2/66 :-) I've been running an Am5x86 for some months now on a SiS motherboard. Replacing CPU's isn't generally as simply as dropping in a new CPU over the old one. For example: a) The Am5x86 supports a write-back L1 cache; since most 486's offer a write-thru L1 cache your motherboard needs to understand enough of the AMD bus protocol to allow the chip to work correctly in the presence of other bus masters etc. b) Further, since the chip is overclocked wrt to the system bus, the motherboard needs to feed the correct clock frequencies to the chip. c) Then there is the matter of supply voltages; some of the newer chips run off 3.3 and 3.45 Volts while the older 486's ran off 5V. The motherboard needs to know the right voltage levels to feed the CPU. d) Finally there are pins on some of the newer chips that have defined functionality now which were earlier N/Cs. An example would be the extra pins needed to support cache snooping with a write-back cache in the CPU. The motherboard needs to drive these correctly. Thus some form of jumpering is the norm when changing CPUs. Esp. in case (c) above. Koshy From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 14 08:17:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA03034 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 08:17:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA03025 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 08:17:55 -0700 (PDT) From: fweber@ix.netcom.com Received: from smtp.netcruiser (stl-mo6-19.ix.netcom.com [204.31.116.211]) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA28888 for hackers@freeBSD.org; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 08:17:23 -0700 Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 08:17:23 -0700 To: hackers@freeBSD.org Message-Id: <199610141028126334@ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: NETCOMplete v3.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-hackers@freeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk unsubscribe hackers@freeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 14 08:40:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA04534 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 08:40:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.225.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA04517 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 08:40:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de [137.226.31.2]) by Campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (RBI-Z-5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA25283 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 16:40:11 +0100 Received: (from kuku@localhost) by gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA17254 for freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 16:45:32 +0100 Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 16:45:32 +0100 From: Christoph Kukulies Message-Id: <199610141545.QAA17254@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: IRC client problem Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk A colleague (who is using IRC) came today with the complaint that the irc client doesn't work (anymore) on our main server machine (which is running -current of varying vintage). This is what he got: *** Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.informatik.rwth-aachen.de *** Unable to connect to port 6667 of server irc.informatik.rwth-aachen.de: +Address family not supported by protocol family *** Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.uni-paderborn.de *** Unable to connect to port 6667 of server irc.uni-paderborn.de: Address +family not supported by protocol family *** Connecting to port 6667 of server sokrates.informatik.uni-kl.de *** Unable to connect to port 6667 of server sokrates.informatik.uni-kl.de: +Address family not supported by protocol family *** Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de *** Unable to connect to port 6667 of server irc.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de: Address +family not supported by protocol family *** Use /SERVER to connect to a server Any ideas? --Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 14 08:41:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA04684 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 08:41:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (et-gw-fr1.etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA04674 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 08:41:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ntws (ntws.etinc.com [204.141.95.142]) by etinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA05681 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 11:54:00 -0400 Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 11:54:00 -0400 Message-Id: <199610141554.LAA05681@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: hackers@freebsd.org From: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Subject: rss vs avm Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk What are the actual meanings of the rss value reported by ps and the avm value reported by vmstat? Dennis From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 14 08:58:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA05756 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 08:58:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA05737 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 08:57:54 -0700 (PDT) From: fweber@ix.netcom.com Received: from stl-mo6-19.ix.netcom.com (stl-mo6-19.ix.netcom.com [204.31.116.211]) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA21800 for hackers@freeBSD.org; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 08:57:18 -0700 Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 08:57:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com: Host stl-mo6-19.ix.netcom.com didn't use HELO protocol To: hackers@freeBSD.org Message-Id: <1996101411751219169@ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: NETCOMplete v3.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-hackers@freeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe hackers@freeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 14 09:34:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA08522 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 09:34:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from interlink.ReyMoreno.net.co ([205.218.236.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA08471; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 09:33:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from interlink.reymoreno.net.co (pppC8.ReyMoreno.net.co [205.218.237.45]) by interlink.ReyMoreno.net.co (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA29090; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 11:30:34 -0700 Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 11:30:34 -0700 Message-Id: <199610141830.LAA29090@interlink.ReyMoreno.net.co> X-Sender: mcalder@205.218.236.10 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Matthew A. Gessner" , Roddie Hasan From: Mauricio Calderon Subject: Re: AMD 586 runs FreeBSD just FINE Cc: hackers , FreeBSD Hardware group Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, At present I have a Hard disk with FreeBSD on a 486/DX266. I want to configure it in a machine 386/33, but when I reboot the system report me incompatibility (and show me some option but never can use those)and reboot each 10 seconds. Can I use the disk on the 386/33 machine? Rgds, Mauricio Calderon At 07:02 AM 10/14/96 -0400, Matthew A. Gessner wrote: >Roddie Hasan wrote: >> >> Hi Matt, >> >> > I just bought one of those them there fancy shmancy CPU upgrades. I >> > had an Intel 486/DX266 and upgraded to a AMD 586/133 from Ganberry via >> > Micro Warehouse. For $140 I have a machine that runs about 2.5 x >> > faster! >> >> I'm thinking of throwing one of those boards in my machine. (I currently >> have a DX266 also). What did you set your cpu type to in the kernel >> settings? I would assume 486, but I want to make sure. >> >> Ciao, Roddie > >I didn't change A THING! I just stuck the new CPU in the socket and >rebooted. Pretty awesome. > >-- >Matthew Gessner, Computer Scientist, >Aristar, Inc. >302 N. Cleveland-Massillon Rd. >Akron, OH 44333 >Voice (330) 668-2267, Fax (330) 668-2961 > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 14 09:51:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA09922 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 09:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA09903 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 09:51:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id SAA08531 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 18:50:56 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id SAA15043 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 18:50:55 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.6/8.6.9) id SAA06356 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 18:34:37 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610141634.SAA06356@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: /sbin/init permission To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 18:34:37 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <199610140816.JAA12775@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> from Luigi Rizzo at "Oct 14, 96 09:16:01 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Luigi Rizzo wrote: > > I'm not even sure whether this is a bug in NFS or not. If the file is > > executable, this should probably suffice. OTOH, i think with the > > Don't think it' s a bug. The problem is that /sbin/init is accessed > with root ID, and without root=0 the ID is mapped to nobody and > access is denied. Execute permission should suffice to have it executed. Try modifying several binaries to mode 0111, and your NFS clients will die horribly if you wanna execute them. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 14 10:23:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA12192 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 10:23:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from neon.ingenia.com (neon.ingenia.com [205.207.219.29]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA12173 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 10:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from shaver@localhost) by neon.ingenia.com (8.8.Alpha.2/8.6.9) id NAA20351; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 13:26:23 -0400 From: Mike Shaver Message-Id: <199610141726.NAA20351@neon.ingenia.com> Subject: Re: Excellent host SYN-attack fix for BSD hosts (fwd) To: michael@memra.com (Michael Dillon) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 13:26:23 -0400 (EDT) Cc: firewalls@GreatCircle.COM, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, server-linux@netspace.org In-Reply-To: from "Michael Dillon" at Oct 11, 96 09:44:18 am Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Thus spake Michael Dillon: > window size > and any initial data is discarded; This, of course, breaks the TCP specification, in case anyone still cares about that. (Few do, I fear.) (I seem to recall someone saying that it made it impossible to talk to any machine that did T/TCP, as well.) Mike -- #> Mike Shaver (shaver@ingenia.com) Ingenia Communications Corporation #> Chief System Architect -- Head geek -- System exorcist #> #> "Have you considered a life? I hear they're quite affordable #> these days." --- shields@tembel.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 14 11:02:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA13946 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 11:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from becker1.u.washington.edu (spaz@becker1.u.washington.edu [140.142.12.67]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA13929; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 11:02:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (spaz@localhost) by becker1.u.washington.edu (8.7.5+UW96.10/8.7.3+UW96.10) with SMTP id LAA20077; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 11:02:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 11:02:34 -0700 (PDT) From: John Utz To: Mauricio Calderon cc: hackers , FreeBSD Hardware group Subject: Re: AMD 586 runs FreeBSD just FINE In-Reply-To: <199610141830.LAA29090@interlink.ReyMoreno.net.co> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi there; trimmed the individuals out because they will see it on hackers anyway.. probably not really appropriate to post questions like this to hackers, supposed to go to questions. i may be reinforcing a bad trait, but anyway! On Mon, 14 Oct 1996, Mauricio Calderon wrote: > Hi, > > At present I have a Hard disk with FreeBSD on a 486/DX266. I want to > configure it in a machine 386/33, but when I reboot the system report me > incompatibility (and show me some option but never can use those)and reboot > each 10 seconds. > > Can I use the disk on the 386/33 machine? The problem is not going to be with the disk per se. The x86 architecture is pretty cpu insensitive by design. It should work, provided that the 386 has a non-funky ( ie not one of those elaborate caching, expensive add on ) ide controller. If u are using the controller built into the board ( assuming it has one, some do, some dont, i own both ), then it should be just fine. I am assuming that what you did was simply yank the disk with freebsd on it out of one machine and plop it in another, right? If so, did u make a custom kernel or are u still using a generic kernel? The first thing that came to my mind when i read your post was that you had a 386 without the companion 387 math-co to go with it, and your kernel has been recompiled with the math emulation removed ( remember, a 486 is simply a 386 and a 387 on the same chip, with a shared 8k cache included ). cant really help you beyond that. I would suggest that if you are just using the generic kernel, then i dont really have any other ideas beyond reinstalling from scratch. I also submit that if the dang thing has no math-coprocessor u should go get one. Go to a used computer store, they should be cheap there. It will make life much simpler. and faster. An 4.77 mhz 8088 with an 8087 does the same math 4 times faster then a 12 mhz 80286 with out one! And if u are planning to run X on this guy, you *will* be doing math every time a window is created or resized. If u have dos-5 or greater on the machine, try running MSD and see what it tells you the machine has on it. if u see the chip, but msd sez u have none, then there is an enabling jumper on the board that has not been set. much luck! > Rgds, > > Mauricio Calderon > > At 07:02 AM 10/14/96 -0400, Matthew A. Gessner wrote: > >Roddie Hasan wrote: > >> > >> Hi Matt, > >> > >> > I just bought one of those them there fancy shmancy CPU upgrades. I > >> > had an Intel 486/DX266 and upgraded to a AMD 586/133 from Ganberry via > >> > Micro Warehouse. For $140 I have a machine that runs about 2.5 x > >> > faster! > >> > >> I'm thinking of throwing one of those boards in my machine. (I currently > >> have a DX266 also). What did you set your cpu type to in the kernel > >> settings? I would assume 486, but I want to make sure. > >> > >> Ciao, Roddie > > > >I didn't change A THING! I just stuck the new CPU in the socket and > >rebooted. Pretty awesome. > > > >-- > >Matthew Gessner, Computer Scientist, > >Aristar, Inc. > >302 N. Cleveland-Massillon Rd. > >Akron, OH 44333 > >Voice (330) 668-2267, Fax (330) 668-2961 > > > > > > ******************************************************************************* John Utz spaz@u.washington.edu idiocy is the impulse function in the convolution of life From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 14 13:49:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA24606 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 13:49:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA24601 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 13:49:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id VAA14230; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 21:23:42 +0100 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199610142023.VAA14230@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Re: /sbin/init permission To: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 21:23:42 +0100 (MET) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610141634.SAA06356@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at Oct 14, 96 06:34:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > As Luigi Rizzo wrote: > > > > I'm not even sure whether this is a bug in NFS or not. If the file is > > > executable, this should probably suffice. OTOH, i think with the > > > > Don't think it' s a bug. The problem is that /sbin/init is accessed > > with root ID, and without root=0 the ID is mapped to nobody and > > access is denied. > > Execute permission should suffice to have it executed. Try modifying > several binaries to mode 0111, and your NFS clients will die horribly > if you wanna execute them. I was confused, I thought /sbin/init was treated specially, whereas it's /kernel which does not need 'x' permissions. Sorry for the mistake. One observation, though. If you are root, and you are able to execute a file, that means that you can also read it. So, the only way to deny read permissions to a 'root' user is to deny execute as well. To every user of course. So I would not call the above a bug, just a security feature. Maybe things work with mode 0511. This problem does not exist with local filesystems since 'root' can do everything locally, no matter what permissions are. Does that sound reasonable ? And, back to the original question: any objection in changing /sbin/init permissions to 0555 ? Thanks Luigi ==================================================================== Luigi Rizzo Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione email: luigi@iet.unipi.it Universita' di Pisa tel: +39-50-568533 via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy) fax: +39-50-568522 http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ ==================================================================== From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 14 15:17:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA29540 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 15:17:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA29515; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 15:16:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rover.village.org (8.7.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id QAA16861; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 16:13:33 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199610142213.QAA16861@rover.village.org> To: "Matthew A. Gessner" Subject: Re: AMD 586 runs FreeBSD just FINE Cc: Roddie Hasan , hackers , FreeBSD Hardware group In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 14 Oct 1996 07:02:25 EDT." <32621DC1.41C67EA6@aristar.com> References: <32621DC1.41C67EA6@aristar.com> Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 16:13:32 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk : I didn't change A THING! I just stuck the new CPU in the socket and : rebooted. Pretty awesome. How does this impact the worldstones? Eg, what was the make world time before and after. If your machine is like my '66, then you've likely been seeing 10ish hour make world times. I really doubt that the new CPU will reduce it to 4hr make world times (ref your earlier posting about it being 2.5x faster). BTW, it looks like to my untrained eye, I can put together a TYAN II 133MHz P5 + 32M + Matrox + Adaptech 29940UW + UW 4G 7200rpm SCSI disk for $2000 (no monitor). Can I get a similar config for less? I've not seen one in the system houses (they don't tend to use TYAN mother boards). Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 14 15:27:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA00718 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 15:27:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA00696 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 15:27:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id AAA19181; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 00:25:50 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA23068; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 00:25:48 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.6/8.6.9) id XAA08165; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 23:20:00 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610142120.XAA08165@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: FS breaks when using ft. To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 23:20:00 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: Duncan.Barclay@pa-consulting.com (Duncan Barclay) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <32626C27@SMTPGATE.PA-CONSULTING.COM> from Duncan Barclay at "Oct 14, 96 09:12:00 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Duncan Barclay wrote: > I then tried to reread these (with ft) to / in single user mode and > with /usr mounted ro. This caused duplicate inodes to be created > and references to block -1 (as stated from fsck). You can hardly blame `ft' for this, since it doesn't deal with the file system directly. It passes everything on to tar, so if your filesystem is hosed afterwards, this is certainly quite another kind of bug (in the kernel, or with your hardware). -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 14 15:29:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA01081 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 15:29:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA00722 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 15:27:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id AAA19231 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 00:26:15 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA23112 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 00:26:15 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.6/8.6.9) id XAA08285 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 23:33:32 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610142133.XAA08285@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: /sbin/init permission To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 23:33:31 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199610142023.VAA14230@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> from Luigi Rizzo at "Oct 14, 96 09:23:42 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Luigi Rizzo wrote: > And, back to the original question: any objection in changing > /sbin/init permissions to 0555 ? I hesitate to decide this without any further opinions... -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 14 15:50:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA02800 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 15:50:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA02794 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 15:50:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news.IAEhv.nl by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA05528 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 14 Oct 1996 15:47:10 -0700 Received: from LOCAL (uucp@localhost) by news.IAEhv.nl (8.6.13/1.63) with IAEhv.nl; pid 29055 on Tue, 15 Oct 1996 00:37:28 +0200; id AAA29055 efrom: devet@adv.IAEhv.nl; eto: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: by adv.IAEhv.nl (8.7.5/1.63) id AAA00530; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 00:34:17 +0200 (MET DST) From: devet@adv.IAEhv.nl (Arjan de Vet) Message-Id: <199610142234.AAA00530@adv.IAEhv.nl> Subject: Direct UUCP stopped working but UUCP via PPP still works To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 00:34:17 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL15 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I recently bought a new PC and upgraded from 2.1.0 to 2.1.5 at the same time. Everything kept working fine except for UUCP transfers directly over the modem: I get an enormous amount of checksum errors. However, PPP (iij-ppp) over the same modem works and UUCP over TCP/IP via that PPP link gives *no* checksum problems. The only strange thing is that in this case the ppp program starts consuming around 100% CPU time (according to top) whereas a full speed ftp session over the same link only gives ppp a CPU usage of 2%. I already tried the following: - Replace the 2.1.5 uucico binary with the 2.1.0 one, no difference; - Reboot with a 2.1.0 kernel, no difference; - Lower the speed between the PC and the modem to 19k2 (normally I use 57k6). But then I get: Oct 6 21:58:08 adv /kernel: sio0: 609 more tty-level buffer overflows (total 609) Oct 6 21:58:09 adv /kernel: sio0: 466 more tty-level buffer overflows (total 1075) Oct 6 21:58:11 adv /kernel: sio0: 14 more tty-level buffer overflows (total 1089) - Use an other protocol than the default i-protocol, no difference. The other side did not change anything, and my configuration files are exactly the same as they were on the 2.1.0 system. Does anybody recognize these symptoms? Is it a hardware problem? If yes, why do I only see it with direct UUCP and not with UUCP over TCP/IP? Arjan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 14 16:14:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA04592 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 16:14:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mole.mole.org (marmot.mole.org [204.216.57.191]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA04573 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 16:13:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by mole.mole.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA20818; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 23:00:08 GMT Received: from meerkat.mole.org(206.197.192.110) by mole.mole.org via smap (V1.3) id sma020808; Mon Oct 14 22:59:41 1996 Received: (from mrm@localhost) by meerkat.mole.org (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA20304; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 15:59:01 -0700 Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 15:59:01 -0700 From: "M.R.Murphy" Message-Id: <199610142259.PAA20304@meerkat.mole.org> To: j@uriah.heep.sax.de Subject: Re: /sbin/init permission Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > From owner-freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Mon Oct 14 15:48:59 1996 > From: J Wunsch > Subject: Re: /sbin/init permission > To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) > Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 23:33:31 +0200 (MET DST) > Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) > > As Luigi Rizzo wrote: > > > And, back to the original question: any objection in changing > > /sbin/init permissions to 0555 ? > > I hesitate to decide this without any further opinions... > Just for the sake of paranoia, a further opinion, $ ls -l /sbin/init -r-x------ 1 root bin 143360 Jul 27 14:06 /sbin/init This is on a public box that is reasonably tight. It's also a suggestion that folks can change file permissions on systems that they control. -- Mike Murphy mrm@Mole.ORG +1 619 598 5874 Better is the enemy of Good From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 14 16:59:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA07369 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 16:59:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from burdell.cc.gatech.edu (root@burdell.cc.gatech.edu [130.207.3.207]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA07351; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 16:58:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dexter.cc.gatech.edu (root@dexter.cc.gatech.edu [130.207.8.27]) by burdell.cc.gatech.edu (8.8.Beta.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA11369; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 19:58:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dexter (sunil@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dexter.cc.gatech.edu (8.8.Beta.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA07111; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 19:58:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3262D387.41C67EA6@cc.gatech.edu> Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 19:57:59 -0400 From: Sunil Upendra Khaunte Organization: College of Computing, Georgia Tech X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG CC: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: TTCP based web client/server Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi: Is anyone aware of a TTCP based web client/server implementation? If Yes,can someone provide some information on the application level protocol used? Has some optimisation of the HTTP code been done to complement the TTCP advantage? I was basically trying to develop a prototype WWW client server pair using a modified-HTTP application level protocol, and a TTCP transport protocol beneath. Any help/suggestions/pointers in this regard will be highly appreciated. Sunil ======================================================================== Sunil Upendra Khaunte email: sunil@cc.gatech.edu Graduate Research Asst snail-mail: #389 Calhoun Street College of Computing Atlanta, GA 30318 Georgia Institute of Technology phone : (404)-875-7226 Atlanta GA 30332 home-page: http://www.cc.gatech.edu/people/home/sunil/ ======================================================================== From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 14 17:14:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA07961 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 17:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from w2xo.pgh.pa.us (w2xo.pgh.pa.us [206.210.70.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA07956 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 17:14:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from durham@localhost) by w2xo.pgh.pa.us (8.6.12/8.6.9) id UAA05743; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 20:17:41 -0400 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 0.5-alpha [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199610140756.JAA04798@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 20:14:17 -0400 (EDT) Organization: Very little From: Jim Durham To: (Joerg Wunsch) Subject: consoles and boot blocks Cc: J Wunsch , (FreeBSD hackers) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On 13:56:37 J Wunsch opined: >>As Jim Durham wrote: >> Does the console have to be on sio0 ? How does one >> specify which com port if not ? > >The location, the speed, and the line behaviour (local line, modem >signals not obeyed) is hardcoded in the bootblocks and in the kernel >(sio.c, if i'm not mistaken). So yes, unless you wanna patch all >this, it's hardcoded to sio0 and 9600 Bd. This brings up a related topic.. Did we arrive at a final determination as to how to run a non-VGA monitor on the virtual terminals? This topic really got a lot of conversation going about a month ago and then just died out...I believe without any real resolution. -Jim Durham From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 14 17:27:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA08543 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 17:27:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA08513; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 17:26:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cdsnet.net (mail.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.5]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id RAA22136 ; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 17:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cdsnet.net (mail.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.5]) by mail.cdsnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA02343; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 17:25:06 -0700 Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 17:25:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Jaye Mathisen To: current@freebsd.org cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: -current stable again? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I have held off on upgrading because of the recent problems reported by Karl and others, but -current seems suspiciously quiet after Saturday. Is it safe to use? From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 14 17:39:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA09649 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 17:39:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA09633; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 17:39:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA01613; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 17:38:12 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610150038.RAA01613@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: TTCP based web client/server To: sunil@cc.gatech.edu (Sunil Upendra Khaunte) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 17:38:12 -0700 (MST) Cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <3262D387.41C67EA6@cc.gatech.edu> from "Sunil Upendra Khaunte" at Oct 14, 96 07:57:59 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Is anyone aware of a TTCP based web client/server implementation? > If Yes,can someone provide some information on the application > level protocol used? Has some optimisation of the HTTP code been > done to complement the TTCP advantage? HTTP 1.1 supports "Keep alive" connections, where the connection to a particular host is left up for some time window for subsequent requests to the same server host. The client signals "Keep alive" in the request header, and the server leaves the connection up pending additional requests, if it recognizes the option. This requires the server to correctly set the "Content-length" in reply documents to signal "end of document" to the client (rather than just closing the connection). For more information on "Keep alive", see: R. Fielding, H. Frystyk, T. Berners-Lee "Hypertext transfer protocol - HTTP/1.1" November 22, 1995 http://ds.internic.net/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-http-v11-spec-02.txt Yes, I *do* keep track of *everything*. 8-). Ask me about a WebNFS(tm) prototype for FreeBSD if you want to hear lots of complaints about the existing VFS/VOP framework. ;-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 14 20:17:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA20717 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 20:17:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wgrobez1.remote.louisville.edu (root@wgrobez1.remote.louisville.edu [136.165.243.183]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA20711; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 20:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (wangel@localhost) by wgrobez1.remote.louisville.edu (8.7.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA12967; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 23:16:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 23:16:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Gary Roberts To: Jaye Mathisen cc: current@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: -current stable again? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 14 Oct 1996, Jaye Mathisen wrote: > > > I have held off on upgrading because of the recent problems reported by > Karl and others, but -current seems suspiciously quiet after Saturday. Is > it safe to use? > > I tried updating pppd to pppd2.3b or whatever, but it broke my kernel tree. I ended up running a sup to update, everything seems ok, however I did recieve alot of Warning messages from gcc while compiling a new kernel. Gary Roberts System Admin. -- Altered Reality. http://136.165.243.183 -- Main User Pages From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 14 23:16:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA03396 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 23:16:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA03390 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 23:16:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.7.6/8.6.9) id QAA29647; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 16:11:53 +1000 Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 16:11:53 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199610150611.QAA29647@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de Subject: Re: /sbin/init permission Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> And, back to the original question: any objection in changing >> /sbin/init permissions to 0555 ? > >I hesitate to decide this without any further opinions... Complete set of standard executables with annoying permissions in -current: -r-x------ 1 bin bin 20480 Oct 2 04:24 /sbin/init -r-sr-x--- 1 root operator 12288 Oct 2 04:26 /sbin/shutdown ---s--x--x 2 root bin 286720 Oct 2 04:19 /usr/bin/sperl4.036 ---s--x--x 2 root bin 286720 Oct 2 04:19 /usr/bin/suidperl -r-sr-x--- 1 uucp uucp 90112 Oct 2 04:09 /usr/libexec/uucp/uuxqt -r-x------ 1 bin bin 12288 Oct 2 04:42 /usr/sbin/watch The missing permissions for `watch' make it unusable by root if /usr is nfs-mounted without maproot=0. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Oct 14 23:36:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA05021 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 23:36:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA05016 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 23:36:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.7.6/8.6.9) id QAA30156; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 16:31:59 +1000 Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 16:31:59 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199610150631.QAA30156@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: devet@adv.IAEhv.nl, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Direct UUCP stopped working but UUCP via PPP still works Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I recently bought a new PC and upgraded from 2.1.0 to 2.1.5 at the same >time. Everything kept working fine except for UUCP transfers directly over >the modem: I get an enormous amount of checksum errors. >Does anybody recognize these symptoms? Is it a hardware problem? If yes, >why do I only see it with direct UUCP and not with UUCP over TCP/IP? Yes. Yes. Because uucp calls tcsetattr() a lot, and the buggy hardware loses sync when the speed is set (even to the same value) while data is arriving. Sync is not regained until data stops arriving. Fixed (mostly) in -current by not setting the speed if the speed hasn't changed. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 00:16:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA06978 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 00:16:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ceres.bios.unc.edu (ceres.bios.unc.edu [152.2.94.225]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA06952 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 00:15:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (walter@localhost) by ceres.bios.unc.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA15836 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 03:16:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: ceres.bios.unc.edu: walter owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 03:16:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Bruce Walter To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk subscribe Bruce_Walter@fortean.com ======================================================================== || Bruce Walter || CB #7400 McGavran-Greenberg Hall || || Information Technology Support || Chapel Hill, NC 27599-7400 || || Department of Biostatistics || Tel: 919-966-7279 || || University of North Carolina || Fax: 919-966-3804 || ======================================================================== || BSD Unix -- It's not just a job, it's a way of life! || ======================================================================== From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 00:25:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA07449 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 00:25:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA07246 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 00:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id JAA03496; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:21:11 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA01395; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:21:11 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.6/8.6.9) id JAA11626; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:05:10 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610150705.JAA11626@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Direct UUCP stopped working but UUCP via PPP still works To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:05:09 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: devet@adv.IAEhv.nl (Arjan de Vet) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199610142234.AAA00530@adv.IAEhv.nl> from Arjan de Vet at "Oct 15, 96 00:34:17 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Arjan de Vet wrote: > I recently bought a new PC and upgraded from 2.1.0 to 2.1.5 at the same > time. Everything kept working fine except for UUCP transfers directly over > the modem: I get an enormous amount of checksum errors. > Does anybody recognize these symptoms? Sorry, no, only the opposite: i'm using UUCP quite extensively, but haven't seen problems like this. (The remote site is running FreeBSD 2.1.0.) Are you sure your hardware handshake to the modem is okay? While this would not explain the difference between 2.1R and 2.1.5R, it would explain the difference between UUCP over modem and UUCP over TCP. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 00:25:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA07470 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 00:25:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA07434 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 00:24:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id JAA03507 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:21:16 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA01401 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:21:16 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.6/8.6.9) id JAA11699 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:13:32 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610150713.JAA11699@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: /sbin/init permission To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:13:31 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199610150611.QAA29647@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from Bruce Evans at "Oct 15, 96 04:11:53 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Bruce Evans wrote: > Complete set of standard executables with annoying permissions in > -current: > > -r-x------ 1 bin bin 20480 Oct 2 04:24 /sbin/init > -r-sr-x--- 1 root operator 12288 Oct 2 04:26 /sbin/shutdown This one makes sense: any member of group `operator' is allowed to shutdown the system, but nobody else. > ---s--x--x 2 root bin 286720 Oct 2 04:19 /usr/bin/sperl4.036 > ---s--x--x 2 root bin 286720 Oct 2 04:19 /usr/bin/suidperl Old paranoia. SysV UUCP's used to ship with this set of permissions, too. Basically useless if /usr/src is also on the system. :) > -r-sr-x--- 1 uucp uucp 90112 Oct 2 04:09 /usr/libexec/uucp/uuxqt Seems to make sense. > -r-x------ 1 bin bin 12288 Oct 2 04:42 /usr/sbin/watch > > The missing permissions for `watch' make it unusable by root if /usr > is nfs-mounted without maproot=0. In particular, they suggest that user `bin' were allowed to start watch. Oh well, the source of `watch' is a fine mess... not only that it abuses sgtty instead of termios, it declares main() to return `void' and such. :-( Seems it has been written too late at night. Anyway, the permissions on it are useless, opening the snoop device is already protected by suser() in the kernel, so this should suffice. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 00:53:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA09846 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 00:53:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA09841 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 00:53:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id AAA22616 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 00:53:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id JAA04897; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:51:13 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA01709; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:51:12 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.6/8.6.9) id JAA11803; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:28:49 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610150728.JAA11803@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Direct UUCP stopped working but UUCP via PPP still works To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:28:49 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: devet@adv.IAEhv.nl Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199610150631.QAA30156@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from Bruce Evans at "Oct 15, 96 04:31:59 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Bruce Evans wrote: > >Does anybody recognize these symptoms? Is it a hardware problem? If yes, > >why do I only see it with direct UUCP and not with UUCP over TCP/IP? > > Yes. Yes. Because uucp calls tcsetattr() a lot, and the buggy hardware > loses sync when the speed is set (even to the same value) while data is > arriving. But why only after an upgrade to 2.1.5? I thought the buggy UMC8669F did hurt us all the way back to (at least) FreeBSD 2.0.5? -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 00:58:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA10201 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 00:58:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.pa-consulting.com (ns.pa-consulting.com [193.118.224.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA10196 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 00:58:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SMTPGATE.PA-CONSULTING.COM by ns.pa-consulting.com (8.6.4) id JAA15948; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:08:15 +0100 Received: by SMTPGATE.PA-CONSULTING.COM with Microsoft Mail id <3263B89F@SMTPGATE.PA-CONSULTING.COM>; Tue, 15 Oct 96 09:15:27 PDT From: Duncan Barclay To: freebsd-hackers Subject: Re: FS breaks when using ft. Date: Tue, 15 Oct 96 08:53:00 PDT Message-ID: <3263B89F@SMTPGATE.PA-CONSULTING.COM> Encoding: 22 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> I then tried to reread these (with ft) to / in single user mode and >> with /usr mounted ro. This caused duplicate inodes to be created >> and references to block -1 (as stated from fsck). >You can hardly blame `ft' for this, since it doesn't deal with the >file system directly. It passes everything on to tar, so if your >filesystem is hosed afterwards, this is certainly quite another kind >of bug (in the kernel, or with your hardware). > >-- >cheers, J"org Yes, I suppose I should have said the ft driver _may_ be hosing things. I did realise last night that I was probably contributing to the problem by the way I was fscking filesystems, (after five years using fsck you would think I would know when to mount and unmount...:-( ). I am going to try some more testing over the next week or so with 2.1.5R and try to replicate the problems. Duncan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 01:17:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA11950 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 01:17:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA11943 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 01:17:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA14081 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 01:17:50 -0700 (PDT) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: "Jesus M. Gonzalez": Do you have a paper for us? Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 01:17:50 -0700 Message-ID: <14079.845367470@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Are any of our spanish-speaking users interested in this? Jordan ------- Forwarded Message From: "Jesus M. Gonzalez" To: info@cdrom.com CC: pheras@hola.gsyc.inf.uc3m.es Subject: Do you have a paper for us? Resent-To: jkh Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 13:33:21 -0700 Resent-From: Email Orders X-UIDL: e03c55177b554daf6f4dae29d9683540 Hi! I am a member of ATI, the major Spanish Professional Association on Computer Science (with a membership of about 5,000), and I'm in charge of an issue of Novatica about free software (Novatica is ATI's monthly magazine). We are accepting contributions for it, and we'll be glad of getting one from you, since I find your experience as a company supporting free software groups (in particular FreeBSD) quite interesting. In fact, maybe you have already something written, which could be enough for us, or which could be easily adapted. We'd like something explaining your company point of view of your experience with FreeBSD, the history of the relationship, the benefits you and the free soft comunity get, and maybe, the opinion of the FreeBSD group about all of this. If you are interested in other aspects which could be interesting for the paper, just tell us about them. We prefer contributions in Spanish, but since that's probably difficult, we can translate it for you, and send it back for your approval. The issue is scheduled by march'97, with deadlines for final versions of articles by november'96. So, I'd like to hear from you as soon as possible. Well, that's all. Thanks for your attention. Jesus. - -- Jesus M. Gonzalez Barahona | addr.: c/ Butarque, 15 Grupo de Sistemas y Comunicaciones | 28911 Leganes, Spain Departamento de Informatica | tel: +34 1 624 94 58 Universidad Carlos III de Madrid | fax: +34 1 624 94 30 e-mail: jgb@gsyc.inf.uc3m.es | www: http://ordago.gsyc.inf.uc3m.es/~jgb ------- End of Forwarded Message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 01:24:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA12642 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 01:24:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from hsu@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA12628 for hackers; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 01:24:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 01:24:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeffrey Hsu Message-Id: <199610150824.BAA12628@freefall.freebsd.org> To: hackers Subject: POSIX conformance test now free (fwd) Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk From: Chris Fearnley Message-Id: <199610082342.TAA18454@unix3.netaxs.com> Subject: POSIX Complience To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 19:42:54 -0400 (EDT) Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Reading the Red Hat announcement I saw this: The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), has decided to stop charging for their POSIX Conformance Test Suite 151-2, in hopes that the POSIX standard may be more broadly applied. Red Hat Software applauds the move, and has obtained the suites for consideration. We would encourage all Linux developers to take advantage of this development. Comments and questions can be directed to Martha Gray at NIST. I don't have time to pursue this, but thought someone else might want to look at it. -- Christopher J. Fearnley | Linux/Internet Consulting cjf@netaxs.com, cjf@onit.net | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS http://www.netaxs.com/~cjf | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) ftp://ftp.netaxs.com/people/cjf | Design Science Revolutionary "Dare to be Naive" -- Bucky Fuller | Explorer in Universe From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 02:17:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA18131 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 02:17:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA18123 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 02:17:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id SAA21553 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:47:33 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199610150917.SAA21553@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Linux compat issue(s) To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:47:32 +0930 (CST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hiho people, still tooling away with the FLEXlm stuff. With a few hiccups I've got their demo kit to build, but a lot of the Linux binaries I'm building get exterminated when they try to run. I'm using the dev kit from the current Slackware (what a nightmare to piece together 8( ), but I can't use gdb on the programs or on the cores that they produce. Some of these I can get around by building the programs native, but some of them have to be linked with the supplied Linux ELF libraries 8( The failing applications don't actually even raise a peep from the Linux emulator. Here we have 'lmgrd' (works) and 'lmclient' (fails) : rootvegetable:/local0/gsi/flexlm/v5.0/i86_l1>file lmgrd lmclient lmgrd: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 lmclient: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 rootvegetable:/local0/gsi/flexlm/v5.0/i86_l1>/compat/linux/usr/bin/ldd lmgrd lmclient lmgrd: libc.so.5 => /lib/libc.so.5.0.9 lmclient: statically linked (ELF) Should I assume that this is the "what static ELF binary is this" problem? Is anyone working on this, or should I try for a fix? Any further suggestions beyond those raised in the discussions a while back? JDP? -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 02:20:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA18406 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 02:20:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA18398 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 02:20:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id CAA22861 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 02:20:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id JAA00416; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:39:22 +0100 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199610150839.JAA00416@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Re: /sbin/init permission To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:39:22 +0100 (MET) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, j@uriah.heep.sax.de In-Reply-To: <199610150611.QAA29647@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at Oct 15, 96 04:11:34 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >> And, back to the original question: any objection in changing > >> /sbin/init permissions to 0555 ? > > > >I hesitate to decide this without any further opinions... > > Complete set of standard executables with annoying permissions in > -current: > > -r-x------ 1 bin bin 20480 Oct 2 04:24 /sbin/init > -r-sr-x--- 1 root operator 12288 Oct 2 04:26 /sbin/shutdown > ---s--x--x 2 root bin 286720 Oct 2 04:19 /usr/bin/sperl4.036 > ---s--x--x 2 root bin 286720 Oct 2 04:19 /usr/bin/suidperl > -r-sr-x--- 1 uucp uucp 90112 Oct 2 04:09 /usr/libexec/uucp/uuxqt > -r-x------ 1 bin bin 12288 Oct 2 04:42 /usr/sbin/watch > > The missing permissions for `watch' make it unusable by root if /usr > is nfs-mounted without maproot=0. for suid applications there is a reason for being restrictive. For others, there is not (or at least, this is site-dependant). Luigi ==================================================================== Luigi Rizzo Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione email: luigi@iet.unipi.it Universita' di Pisa tel: +39-50-568533 via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy) fax: +39-50-568522 http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ ==================================================================== From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 02:33:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA19437 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 02:33:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ra.dkuug.dk (ra.dkuug.dk [193.88.44.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA19432 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 02:33:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ra.dkuug.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA13406; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:33:42 +0200 Message-Id: <199610150933.LAA13406@ra.dkuug.dk> Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:33:42 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610150917.SAA21553@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Oct 15, 96 06:47:32 pm From: sos@FreeBSD.org Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Michael Smith who wrote: > > The failing applications don't actually even raise a peep from the > Linux emulator. Here we have 'lmgrd' (works) and 'lmclient' (fails) : > > rootvegetable:/local0/gsi/flexlm/v5.0/i86_l1>file lmgrd lmclient > lmgrd: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 > lmclient: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 > rootvegetable:/local0/gsi/flexlm/v5.0/i86_l1>/compat/linux/usr/bin/ldd lmgrd lmclient > lmgrd: > libc.so.5 => /lib/libc.so.5.0.9 > lmclient: > statically linked (ELF) > > > Should I assume that this is the "what static ELF binary is this" problem? Exactly, the static ELF program is run as a FreeBSD native bin, there is no way to know better (yet). I guess we'll have to provide a solution for this shortcoming in ELF (WHO said ELF was "the way to go" *sigh*) I can do a "quick&dirty"(tm) little program that marks ELF bins so that we can distinguish them, but it breaks the ELF std. one way or another. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team So much code to hack -- so little time. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 02:38:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA19820 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 02:38:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA19813; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 02:38:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id TAA21719; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:08:29 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199610150938.TAA21719@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) To: sos@FreeBSD.org Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:08:29 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610150933.LAA13406@ra.dkuug.dk> from "sos@FreeBSD.org" at Oct 15, 96 11:33:42 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk sos@FreeBSD.org stands accused of saying: > > > > Should I assume that this is the "what static ELF binary is this" problem? > > Exactly, the static ELF program is run as a FreeBSD native bin, there > is no way to know better (yet). > I guess we'll have to provide a solution for this shortcoming in > ELF (WHO said ELF was "the way to go" *sigh*) > I can do a "quick&dirty"(tm) little program that marks ELF bins so that > we can distinguish them, but it breaks the ELF std. one way or another. I don't think we want Q&D. I certainly don't. Where can I snarf the ELF spec to look at? This is going to get really annying _very_ soon 8( > Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 02:48:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA20384 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 02:48:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA20378; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 02:48:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from whale.gu.kiev.ua by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA24494 (5.65c/IDA-1.5); Tue, 15 Oct 1996 02:37:26 -0700 Received: from creator.gu.kiev.ua (stesin@creator.gu.kiev.ua [193.124.51.73]) by whale.gu.kiev.ua (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA98162; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 12:23:40 +0300 Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 12:23:39 +0300 (EET DST) From: Andrew Stesin X-Sender: stesin@creator.gu.kiev.ua To: Joerg Wunsch Cc: FreeBSD hackers , devet@adv.IAEhv.nl Subject: Re: Direct UUCP stopped working but UUCP via PPP still works In-Reply-To: <199610150728.JAA11803@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-Id: X-Ncc-Regid: ua.gu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello, On Tue, 15 Oct 1996, J Wunsch wrote: [...] > But why only after an upgrade to 2.1.5? I thought the buggy UMC8669F > did hurt us all the way back to (at least) FreeBSD 2.0.5? [...] I also suggest to be _very_ suspicious with Winbond integrated chips (they are often met on VLB MIO cards and on not-so-recent 486 motherboards). I don't have one handy for exact chip model reference, sorry; but AFAIK ASUS SP3G motherboard is, for example, equipped with one. Just 2-3 days ago one of that Winbond chips hit me once again on a friend's machine. Mouse works fine, tests are Ok, but just anything requiring bidirectional full-duplex transfers (UUCP, SLIP, even Fidonet mailer) just doesn't work. -- Best, Andrew Stesin nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 03:41:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA24554 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 03:41:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ra.dkuug.dk (ra.dkuug.dk [193.88.44.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA24548; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 03:41:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ra.dkuug.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA13748; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 12:41:26 +0200 Message-Id: <199610151041.MAA13748@ra.dkuug.dk> Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 12:41:26 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: sos@FreeBSD.org, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610150938.TAA21719@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Oct 15, 96 07:08:29 pm From: sos@FreeBSD.org Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Michael Smith who wrote: > > sos@FreeBSD.org stands accused of saying: > > > > > > Should I assume that this is the "what static ELF binary is this" problem? > > > > Exactly, the static ELF program is run as a FreeBSD native bin, there > > is no way to know better (yet). > > I guess we'll have to provide a solution for this shortcoming in > > ELF (WHO said ELF was "the way to go" *sigh*) > > I can do a "quick&dirty"(tm) little program that marks ELF bins so that > > we can distinguish them, but it breaks the ELF std. one way or another. > > I don't think we want Q&D. I certainly don't. You are going to, there is NO, ZIP, ZERO provision in ELF for this !! (the designers had a good sleep while doing the ELF spec). > Where can I snarf the ELF spec to look at? This is going to get really > annying _very_ soon 8( I had one, I'll see if I can find it, but it wont help you, ELF is only supposed to handle ONE os type per platform, what we are doing is blasfemy (ie not running SVR4). There has been some talk between the various free groups, but there has been no consensus yet, and I dont see the ELF std being rewritten just because we say its faulty. So ELF is like the plaque, there is no current cure :) Yet another reason to stay with a.out :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team So much code to hack -- so little time. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 03:54:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA25317 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 03:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from isbalham (isbalham.ist.co.uk [192.31.26.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA25310 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 03:54:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gid.co.uk (uucp@localhost) by isbalham (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id LAA17299; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:50:15 +0100 Received: from [194.32.164.2] by seagoon.gid.co.uk; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:46:04 +0100 X-Sender: rb@194.32.164.1 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:46:23 +0100 To: Andrew Stesin , Joerg Wunsch From: rb@gid.co.uk (Bob Bishop) Subject: Re: Direct UUCP stopped working but UUCP via PPP still works Cc: FreeBSD hackers , devet@adv.IAEhv.nl Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 12:23 pm 15/10/96, Andrew Stesin wrote: [...] > I also suggest to be _very_ suspicious with Winbond integrated > chips (they are often met on VLB MIO cards and on not-so-recent > 486 motherboards). I don't have one handy for exact chip model > reference, sorry; but AFAIK ASUS SP3G motherboard is, > for example, equipped with one. I second that. I've had problems with Winbond chips bearing various numbers, they turn up on straight ISA MIO cards and 2-port serial cards too; they are A Pain In The Ass (TM). -- Bob Bishop (0118) 977 4017 international code +44 118 rb@gid.co.uk fax (0118) 989 4254 between 0800 and 1800 UK From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 05:55:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA05990 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 05:55:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ceres.bios.unc.edu (ceres.bios.unc.edu [152.2.94.225]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA05957 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 05:55:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (walter@localhost) by ceres.bios.unc.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA16878 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 08:57:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: ceres.bios.unc.edu: walter owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 08:57:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Bruce Walter To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: List probs... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sorry for that spam everyone... Teaches me to try to fix things at three in the am. One question... For some reason, I keep losing subscription to -hackers and -current, although my ports subscription never stops (or even slows down). Last night I saw 2.2-961014-SNAP go up and realized that an 8 day snap couldn't happen with _zero_ discussion... Tried to fix it too late. Anyone else having problems with the list? - Bruce ======================================================================== || Bruce Walter || CB #7400 McGavran-Greenberg Hall || || Information Technology Support || Chapel Hill, NC 27599-7400 || || Department of Biostatistics || Tel: 919-966-7279 || || University of North Carolina || Fax: 919-966-3804 || ======================================================================== || BSD Unix -- It's not just a job, it's a way of life! || ======================================================================== From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 06:29:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA08242 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 06:29:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from agora.rdrop.com (root@agora.rdrop.com [199.2.210.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA08223 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 06:28:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dawn.ww.net by agora.rdrop.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #17) id m0vD9Vo-00093YC; Tue, 15 Oct 96 06:26 PDT Received: (from alexis@localhost) by dawn.ww.net (8.7.5/alexis 2.5) id QAA03529 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 16:58:52 +0400 (MSD) Message-Id: <199610151258.QAA03529@dawn.ww.net> Subject: just a bit of freebsd humor :-) To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 16:58:52 +0400 (MSD) From: Alexis Yushin Reply-To: alexis@ww.net (Alexis Yushin) X-Office-Phone: +380 65 2 26.1410 X-Home-Phone: +380 65 2 27.0747 X-NIC-Handle: AY23 X-RIPE-Handle: AY6-RIPE X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greetings, A situation like this: host -l works, host -t any works, host -t soa works, everything works, but host -H does not work only on the DNS machine, but works outside... Q: Why? A: Well, your DNS machine probably has no coprocessor? alexis -- Yesterday don't matter when it's gone From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 07:24:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA11750 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 07:24:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hda.com (ip88-max1-fitch.zipnet.net [199.232.245.88]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA11744 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 07:24:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id GAA20155; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 06:37:51 -0400 From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199610151037.GAA20155@hda.com> Subject: ADSP-21xx compiler for FreeBSD (was LOW COST DSP DEVELOPMENT TOOLS) To: hasty@star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty Jr.) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 06:37:50 -0400 (EDT) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <326062EA.41C67EA6@star-gate.com> from "Amancio Hasty Jr." at Oct 12, 96 08:32:58 pm Reply-to: hdalog@zipnet.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (Amancio forwards some TI DSP tool info, encouraging me to ask this): Has anyone seen the gcc compiler for the Analog Devices ADSP 2181 available in a form for FreeBSD, i.e., either the source or a port? I can't find it using the any search engines. I will eventually have to purchase the full development kit from Analog (it has the libraries and so on), however, in the mean time I'm curious to look at the compiler output. I'm not going to spend the $450.00 for the tool chain until it is actually important. (Just to head off any discussion of this point: Yes, Analog does provide the source to their customers in accordance with the GPL). -- Peter Dufault Real-Time Machine Control and Simulation HD Associates, Inc. Voice: 508 433 6936 dufault@hda.com Fax: 508 433 5267 From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 07:46:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA12857 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 07:46:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scruz.net (nic.scruz.net [165.227.1.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA12851 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 07:45:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from osprey.grizzly.com by scruz.net (8.7.3/1.34) id HAA23384; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 07:45:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from markd@localhost) by osprey.grizzly.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA04160; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 07:09:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 07:09:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610151409.HAA04160@osprey.grizzly.com> From: Mark Diekhans To: devet@adv.IAEhv.nl CC: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <199610142234.AAA00530@adv.IAEhv.nl> (devet@adv.IAEhv.nl) Subject: Re: Direct UUCP stopped working but UUCP via PPP still works Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I recently bought a new PC and upgraded from 2.1.0 to 2.1.5 at the same >time. Everything kept working fine except for UUCP transfers directly over >the modem: I get an enormous amount of checksum errors. Its its an external modem, try a different cable. Even though I had a new cable, replacing the cable fixed the problem. Mark From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 08:12:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA13954 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 08:12:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from whyy.org (root@whyy.org [199.234.236.254]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA13949 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 08:12:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tvmaster1.whyy.org (tvmaster1.whyy.org [199.234.236.48]) by whyy.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA17312 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:14:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610151514.LAA17312@whyy.org> X-Sender: jehrenkrantz@199.234.236.254 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:17:58 -0400 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org From: Jeffrey Ehrenkrantz Subject: Ouch perhaps we need an advertising committee! Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It may be instructive for those who have not read the artical in Oct 7' PcWeek to do so! it can be found @ http://www.pcweek.com/opinion/1007/07mach.html It seems that the Linux camp is getting some extra help from Bill Machrone. Perhaps we need to all send in a dollor or two and have some of the core team talk to him. It seems to me although the several books on the market are reallly great! We need to produce one that is 3 inches thick and have it main streamed so that FreeBSD gets the approiate following of the masses it so richly deserves. And does anyone know if the following about SYN attacts is really true?....from the article This spirit of cooperation has yielded some surprising benefits for Linux users. Linux became the first server platform with a workable defense for SYN attacks, the hacker's trick of tying up a server by sending a continuous barrage of packets. Linux International (http://www.li.org) now serves the needs of users and provide information and links to software and support, and it has the backing of big (and small) companies. Linux is rapidly becoming one of the most popular Unix variants, especially on Web servers. It's robust, fast and capable. Recent compatibility enhancements let you simply recompile most Unix programs for Linux. ..je From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 08:33:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA14915 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 08:33:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA14887 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 08:32:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.7.6/8.6.9) id BAA14633; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:27:29 +1000 Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:27:29 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199610151527.BAA14633@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, j@uriah.heep.sax.de Subject: Re: /sbin/init permission Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> -r-sr-x--- 1 root operator 12288 Oct 2 04:26 /sbin/shutdown > >This one makes sense: any member of group `operator' is allowed to >shutdown the system, but nobody else. It makes no sense for it to be unreadable. >> ---s--x--x 2 root bin 286720 Oct 2 04:19 /usr/bin/sperl4.036 >> ---s--x--x 2 root bin 286720 Oct 2 04:19 /usr/bin/suidperl > >Old paranoia. SysV UUCP's used to ship with this set of permissions, >too. Basically useless if /usr/src is also on the system. :) Really if the user can files and execute chmod. >> -r-sr-x--- 1 uucp uucp 90112 Oct 2 04:09 /usr/libexec/uucp/uuxqt > >Seems to make sense. It makes no sense for it to be unreadable, and its nonreadability and nonexecutability by `other' breaks the usability of an nfs-mounted /usr (for the rare case that root wants to run this directly). (If it were only readable, then root could copy it and run the copy.) Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 08:36:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA15068 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 08:36:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA15061 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 08:36:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.7.6/8.6.9) id BAA14660; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:30:00 +1000 Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:30:00 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199610151530.BAA14660@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de Subject: Re: Direct UUCP stopped working but UUCP via PPP still works Cc: devet@adv.IAEhv.nl Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> Yes. Yes. Because uucp calls tcsetattr() a lot, and the buggy hardware >> loses sync when the speed is set (even to the same value) while data is >> arriving. > >But why only after an upgrade to 2.1.5? I thought the buggy UMC8669F >did hurt us all the way back to (at least) FreeBSD 2.0.5? Because the hardware and software were upgraded at the same time? :-) I think the bug report said that 2.1.0 didn't work with the new hardware either. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 08:42:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA15274 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 08:42:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA15268 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 08:42:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.7.6/8.6.9) id BAA14817; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:36:34 +1000 Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:36:34 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199610151536.BAA14817@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@zeta.org.au, luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it Subject: Re: /sbin/init permission Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, j@uriah.heep.sax.de Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> Complete set of standard executables with annoying permissions in >> -current: >> >> -r-x------ 1 bin bin 20480 Oct 2 04:24 /sbin/init >> -r-sr-x--- 1 root operator 12288 Oct 2 04:26 /sbin/shutdown >> ---s--x--x 2 root bin 286720 Oct 2 04:19 /usr/bin/sperl4.036 >> ---s--x--x 2 root bin 286720 Oct 2 04:19 /usr/bin/suidperl >> -r-sr-x--- 1 uucp uucp 90112 Oct 2 04:09 /usr/libexec/uucp/uuxqt >> -r-x------ 1 bin bin 12288 Oct 2 04:42 /usr/sbin/watch >... >for suid applications there is a reason for being restrictive. For I think security by obscurity is the only reason. This doesn't apply to free software. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 09:18:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA16913 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:18:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from hsu@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA16907 for hackers; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:18:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:18:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeffrey Hsu Message-Id: <199610151618.JAA16907@freefall.freebsd.org> To: hackers Subject: call for papers Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk CALL FOR PAPERS Second Conference on Freely Redistributable Software Sponsored by the Free Software Foundation and Cygnus Support 19-21 February 1997 San Francisco Hilton, San Francisco Over the past 15 years, free and low-cost software has become ubiquitous. This conference will bring together implementors of several different types of freely redistributable software and publishers of such software (on various media). There will be tutorials and refereed papers, as well as keynotes. The Conference will be held at the San Francisco Hilton, 19-21 February 1997. Papers are invited on any aspect of GNU, Linux, NetBSD, 386BSD, FreeBSD, expect, PERL, tcl/tk, Apache, Kerberos, and other tools for which the code is accessible and redistributable. Extended abstracts are due on or before November 8, 1996. Authors will be notified no later than December 5, 1996. Full papers will be due Thursday, 16 January 1996. Program committee: Michael Tiemann, chair Brian Behlendorf Robert J. Chassell Rich Morin Peter H. Salus Ian Lance Taylor Abstracts of 350-750 words (in troff, PostScript, or straight ASCII, only) should be sent to fsc-1997@cygnus.com. Proposals for tutorials should be sent to Peter H. Salus at peter@gnu.ai.mit.edu immediately -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Peter H. Salus #3303 4 Longfellow Place Boston, MA 02114 peter@pedant.com +1 617 723 3092 ----------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 09:43:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA18451 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:43:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (austin.polstra.com [206.213.73.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA18446; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:43:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (jdp@localhost) by austin.polstra.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA03974; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:43:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610151643.JAA03974@austin.polstra.com> To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, sos@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) In-reply-to: <199610150917.SAA21553@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:43:33 -0700 From: John Polstra Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Should I assume that this is the "what static ELF binary is this" > problem? > > Is anyone working on this, or should I try for a fix? Any further > suggestions beyond those raised in the discussions a while back? > JDP? Yeah, I said I was going to do something about this, and then I dropped the ball. Sorry. GNU binutils is so damned frustrating to work with, I just had to get away from it for a while. I still don't agree with Soren: > ... ELF is > only supposed to handle ONE os type per platform, what we are doing > is blasfemy (ie not running SVR4). > > There has been some talk between the various free groups, but there > has been no consensus yet, and I dont see the ELF std being rewritten > just because we say its faulty. So ELF is like the plaque, there > is no current cure :) ELF _does_ have a mechanism for doing what we want. Quoting from the "Program Header" section of the spec: Note Section Sometimes a vendor or system builder needs to mark an object file with special information that other programs will check for conformance, compatibility, etc. Sections of type SHT_NOTE and program header elements of type PT_NOTE can be used for this purpose. I still think this is the way to go. I played around with it a little bit, and got it sort of limping along. The ELF linker in binutils allows you to add a Note section to the program header without modifying any code in the linker, by using a custom linker script. But that feature is buggy as hell, and its only diagnostic seems to be "core dumped". I did finally get it to put the Note section in properly. But I concluded that the linker script mechanism wasn't flexible enough for our purposes. The linker itself would have to be modified somewhat. I think that was around the time I contracted a severe case of GNU spaghetti indigestion, which left me unable to even glance at the binutils code without breaking out into a cold sweat. (The symptoms linger to this day.) [He pops another Valium ... :-] The Note section idea also doesn't solve the entire problem. We could mark our own FreeBSD ELF files with Note sections, so we could recognize them. But unless we could persuade the Linux people to do likewise, we'd still be unable to distinguish between Linux ELF files and SVR4 ELF files. This is going to be a problem no matter what we do, though. John -- John Polstra jdp@polstra.com John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA "Self-knowledge is always bad news." -- John Barth From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 09:54:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA19416 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:54:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA19277 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:52:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rover.village.org (8.7.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id KAA18270; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:51:43 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199610151651.KAA18270@rover.village.org> To: Jeffrey Ehrenkrantz Subject: Re: Ouch perhaps we need an advertising committee! Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:17:58 EDT." <199610151514.LAA17312@whyy.org> References: <199610151514.LAA17312@whyy.org> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:51:43 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199610151514.LAA17312@whyy.org> Jeffrey Ehrenkrantz writes: : This spirit of cooperation has yielded some surprising benefits : for Linux users. Linux became the first server platform with a : workable defense for SYN attacks, the hacker's trick of tying I don't think so. Linux didn't have this until after FreeBSD and OpenBSD at least. At least the -current versions of both of them vs the kernel release versions. However, we're quibbling over a couple of days. Linux was one of the first to be sure. Reminds me of the 10 press releases that I was saying that XXXX was the first router to have SYN Attack prevention... Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 10:18:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA21549 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:18:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mole.mole.org (marmot.mole.org [204.216.57.191]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA21543 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:18:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by mole.mole.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA27516; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 16:56:14 GMT Received: from meerkat.mole.org(206.197.192.110) by mole.mole.org via smap (V1.3) id sma027513; Tue Oct 15 16:55:53 1996 Received: (from mrm@localhost) by meerkat.mole.org (8.6.11/8.6.9) id JAA22817; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:55:08 -0700 Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:55:08 -0700 From: "M.R.Murphy" Message-Id: <199610151655.JAA22817@meerkat.mole.org> To: bde@zeta.org.au, luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it Subject: Re: /sbin/init permission Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > >> Complete set of standard executables with annoying permissions in > >> -current: > >> > >> -r-x------ 1 bin bin 20480 Oct 2 04:24 /sbin/init > >> -r-sr-x--- 1 root operator 12288 Oct 2 04:26 /sbin/shutdown > >> ---s--x--x 2 root bin 286720 Oct 2 04:19 /usr/bin/sperl4.036 > >> ---s--x--x 2 root bin 286720 Oct 2 04:19 /usr/bin/suidperl > >> -r-sr-x--- 1 uucp uucp 90112 Oct 2 04:09 /usr/libexec/uucp/uuxqt > >> -r-x------ 1 bin bin 12288 Oct 2 04:42 /usr/sbin/watch > >... > >for suid applications there is a reason for being restrictive. For > > I think security by obscurity is the only reason. This doesn't apply > to free software. I'd mention that this is argument by assertion and a misuse of "free" in "free software", but that would be pedantic and a cheap shot :-) If I feel like setting /usr/sbin/watch 0110 root.sys, that's my concern. If I felt strongly about it, I could have a script that does the deed to all the files I care about. Even though I don't have to have an 0111 /bin/cat to comply with my Western Electric license (ultra-scrupulous, I'll admit), there's no reason not to do so if I feel like it. I'm suggesting that the status quo isn't too bad. Let those who care, fix. -- Mike Murphy mrm@Mole.ORG +1 619 598 5874 Better is the enemy of Good From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 10:30:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA22523 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:30:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA22116 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:25:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id MAA26147; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 12:23:16 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610151723.MAA26147@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: /sbin/init permission To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 12:23:16 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de In-Reply-To: <199610151527.BAA14633@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at Oct 16, 96 01:27:29 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >> -r-sr-x--- 1 root operator 12288 Oct 2 04:26 /sbin/shutdown > > > >This one makes sense: any member of group `operator' is allowed to > >shutdown the system, but nobody else. > > It makes no sense for it to be unreadable. It makes no sense for it to be readable but not executable, I think. > >> ---s--x--x 2 root bin 286720 Oct 2 04:19 /usr/bin/sperl4.036 > >> ---s--x--x 2 root bin 286720 Oct 2 04:19 /usr/bin/suidperl > > > >Old paranoia. SysV UUCP's used to ship with this set of permissions, > >too. Basically useless if /usr/src is also on the system. :) > > Really if the user can files and execute chmod. > > >> -r-sr-x--- 1 uucp uucp 90112 Oct 2 04:09 /usr/libexec/uucp/uuxqt > > > >Seems to make sense. > > It makes no sense for it to be unreadable, and its nonreadability and > nonexecutability by `other' breaks the usability of an nfs-mounted /usr > (for the rare case that root wants to run this directly). (If it were > only readable, then root could copy it and run the copy.) PLEASE DO NOT MAKE THIS EXECUTABLE BY 'other'. It is very possible to bring a system to its knees if there is even a moderate amount of UUCP work by doing while true; do /usr/libexec/uucp/uuxqt& done You probably do not want to run uuxqt if you have a NFS mounted /usr because you probably have a NFS mounted /var and Taylor himself says not to run UUCP on a NFS mounted partition due to locking problems. If you REALLY want to do this, you can either change the permissions or create a UUCP administrative account that root can su to. Works fine. But dropping everyone elses pants to achieve this goal is not cool. ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 10:41:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA23321 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA23314 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:41:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id MAA26177; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 12:39:50 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610151739.MAA26177@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: /sbin/init permission To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 12:39:50 -0500 (CDT) Cc: bde@zeta.org.au, luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, j@uriah.heep.sax.de In-Reply-To: <199610151536.BAA14817@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at Oct 16, 96 01:36:34 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >> Complete set of standard executables with annoying permissions in > >> -current: > >> > >> -r-x------ 1 bin bin 20480 Oct 2 04:24 /sbin/init > >> -r-sr-x--- 1 root operator 12288 Oct 2 04:26 /sbin/shutdown > >> ---s--x--x 2 root bin 286720 Oct 2 04:19 /usr/bin/sperl4.036 > >> ---s--x--x 2 root bin 286720 Oct 2 04:19 /usr/bin/suidperl > >> -r-sr-x--- 1 uucp uucp 90112 Oct 2 04:09 /usr/libexec/uucp/uuxqt > >> -r-x------ 1 bin bin 12288 Oct 2 04:42 /usr/sbin/watch > >... > >for suid applications there is a reason for being restrictive. For > > I think security by obscurity is the only reason. This doesn't apply > to free software. Respectfully, I do not think that this is true. I am in favor of "raising the bar" that potential invaders have to jump over whenever I can. This includes little things and big things. Little things can include applying patches for problems suggested in CERT advisories and then editing the modification times on the files to be the same as they were before. Big things can include setting up roadblocks by editing key utilities to function a little differently. I know someone who modified "su" to always fail when su'ing to a wheel group account (including root) .. this was sorta clever IMHO. (and the original copy is buried someplace dark and deep). BSD is nice in that it always rounds to 4K so size changes are less obvious.. but I would rather see utilities that people have no business needing to read being unreadable. I understand the NFS argument but generally discount it as baloney.. if it is truly a problem, set up NFS differently. ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 10:50:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA23803 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:50:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA23798 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id KAA23572 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:49:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id SAA01147 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:13:00 +0100 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199610151713.SAA01147@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: iijppp suggestion for a fix To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:13:00 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk If someone is looking after iijppp: I noticed (in mbuf.c) that each packet causes two or more calls to malloc() and a corresponding number of free(). Now malloc seems to be relatively efficient (at least phkmalloc), I measured less than 50us per malloc/free pair on my 486. But while I am typing this message (after a 15 minutes session) ppp reports more than 25000 malloc for about 6000 total packets, and (hear, hear) a peak memory occupation of less than 10KB. If someone has a little time to work on it, rewriting the allocator by keeping its own free list looks like an easy way to improve performance. Luigi ==================================================================== Luigi Rizzo Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione email: luigi@iet.unipi.it Universita' di Pisa tel: +39-50-568533 via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy) fax: +39-50-568522 http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ ==================================================================== From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 10:56:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA24289 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:56:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA24278 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:56:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.7.6/8.6.9) id DAA18137; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 03:52:05 +1000 Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 03:52:05 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199610151752.DAA18137@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@zeta.org.au, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com Subject: Re: /sbin/init permission Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> >> -r-sr-x--- 1 uucp uucp 90112 Oct 2 04:09 /usr/libexec/uucp/uuxqt >> > >> >Seems to make sense. >> >> It makes no sense for it to be unreadable, and its nonreadability and >> nonexecutability by `other' breaks the usability of an nfs-mounted /usr >> (for the rare case that root wants to run this directly). (If it were >> only readable, then root could copy it and run the copy.) > >PLEASE DO NOT MAKE THIS EXECUTABLE BY 'other'. It is very possible to >bring a system to its knees if there is even a moderate amount of UUCP >work by doing > >while true; do > /usr/libexec/uucp/uuxqt& >done Is this much different from any other fork bomb? >You probably do not want to run uuxqt if you have a NFS mounted /usr because >you probably have a NFS mounted /var and Taylor himself says not to run >UUCP on a NFS mounted partition due to locking problems. Well, I have an nfs-mounted /usr, a ufs /var, and don't normally run uucp :-). Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 11:02:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA24633 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:02:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA24628 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:02:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id NAA26208; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 13:01:12 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610151801.NAA26208@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: /sbin/init permission To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 13:01:11 -0500 (CDT) Cc: bde@zeta.org.au, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de In-Reply-To: <199610151752.DAA18137@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at Oct 16, 96 03:52:05 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >PLEASE DO NOT MAKE THIS EXECUTABLE BY 'other'. It is very possible to > >bring a system to its knees if there is even a moderate amount of UUCP > >work by doing > > > >while true; do > > /usr/libexec/uucp/uuxqt& > >done > > Is this much different from any other fork bomb? Yes, it is an I/O bomb. It is not much different than while true; do du -s / & sleep 2 done > >You probably do not want to run uuxqt if you have a NFS mounted /usr because > >you probably have a NFS mounted /var and Taylor himself says not to run > >UUCP on a NFS mounted partition due to locking problems. > > Well, I have an nfs-mounted /usr, a ufs /var, and don't normally run uucp :-). :-) ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 11:07:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA24936 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:07:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA24913 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:06:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.7.6/8.6.9) id EAA18319; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 04:01:35 +1000 Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 04:01:35 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199610151801.EAA18319@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@zeta.org.au, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com Subject: Re: /sbin/init permission Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de, luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> >> -r-x------ 1 bin bin 20480 Oct 2 04:24 /sbin/init >> >> -r-sr-x--- 1 root operator 12288 Oct 2 04:26 /sbin/shutdown >> >> ---s--x--x 2 root bin 286720 Oct 2 04:19 /usr/bin/sperl4.036 >> >> ---s--x--x 2 root bin 286720 Oct 2 04:19 /usr/bin/suidperl >> >> -r-sr-x--- 1 uucp uucp 90112 Oct 2 04:09 /usr/libexec/uucp/uuxqt >> >> -r-x------ 1 bin bin 12288 Oct 2 04:42 /usr/sbin/watch >> >... >> >for suid applications there is a reason for being restrictive. For >> >> I think security by obscurity is the only reason. This doesn't apply >> to free software. > >Respectfully, I do not think that this is true. > >I am in favor of "raising the bar" that potential invaders have to jump >over whenever I can. This includes little things and big things. Well, the above is a curious selection of things with raised bars. What about the other 43 setuid root executables with permissions -r-sr-xr-x or -r-sr-sr-x in /*bin and /usr/*bin? Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 11:17:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA25748 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:17:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SandBox.CyberCity.dk (disn5.cybercity.dk [194.16.57.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA25701; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:16:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by SandBox.CyberCity.dk (8.7.6/8.7.3) id UAA01759; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:16:41 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199610151816.UAA01759@SandBox.CyberCity.dk> Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) To: jdp@polstra.com (John Polstra) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:16:41 +0200 (MET DST) From: "Soren Schmidt" Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@freebsd.org, sos@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610151643.JAA03974@austin.polstra.com> from "John Polstra" at Oct 15, 96 09:43:33 am From: sos@freebsd.org Reply-to: sos@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to John Polstra who wrote: > > I still don't agree with Soren: > > > ... ELF is > > only supposed to handle ONE os type per platform, what we are doing > > is blasfemy (ie not running SVR4). [stuff deleted] > The Note section idea also doesn't solve the entire problem. We could > mark our own FreeBSD ELF files with Note sections, so we could recognize > them. But unless we could persuade the Linux people to do likewise, we'd > still be unable to distinguish between Linux ELF files and SVR4 ELF files. > This is going to be a problem no matter what we do, though. So, you agree with me after all :) Its not even enough to distinguish between Linux/FreeBSD (which we could with note sections) and the rest, we will eventually have to be able to tell Solaris/DGUX/Olivetti-SVR4/NCR-SVR4/whatnot from each other too, or we will be in hell anyway. I know for a fact that if we are going to do SVR4 emulation we will NEED a way to tell them apart. So having a nice little util that marks the ELF header in ways for us to know is the ONLY solution to this problem, like it or not. I propose that we use some unused space in the ELF header. The ELF header starts with a 16byte char field, where only the first 8 are used in all the ELF/i386 incarnations I've seen, so we can put a 8 char text here for the platform (that can easily be seen with the file(1) cmd too). Simple, easy, nice hack, works.... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- SЬren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team Even more code to hack -- will it ever end .. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 11:30:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA26949 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:30:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA26925 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:30:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id NAA26258; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 13:29:27 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610151829.NAA26258@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: /sbin/init permission To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 13:29:27 -0500 (CDT) Cc: bde@zeta.org.au, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de, luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it In-Reply-To: <199610151801.EAA18319@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at Oct 16, 96 04:01:35 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >Respectfully, I do not think that this is true. > > > >I am in favor of "raising the bar" that potential invaders have to jump > >over whenever I can. This includes little things and big things. > > Well, the above is a curious selection of things with raised bars. > What about the other 43 setuid root executables with permissions > -r-sr-xr-x or -r-sr-sr-x in /*bin and /usr/*bin? I am sorry, I should have clarified that I am not necessarily in favor of those being world readable either. Due to the various reasons that they may be suid (vmstat, etc) it may not be unreasonable to have some of them world readable, but it is probably bad to have login, su, etc. world readable. I do not advocate security through obscurity, but I do advocate use of "obscurity" (or lack of knowledge about local modifications) as a means through which people may be discouraged... :-) In any case, my real objection was to making uuxqt world executable. ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 11:30:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA26982 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:30:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news.IAEhv.nl (root@news.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA26964 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:30:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCAL (uucp@localhost) by news.IAEhv.nl (8.6.13/1.63) with IAEhv.nl; pid 20611 on Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:24:02 +0200; id UAA20611 efrom: devet@adv.IAEhv.nl; eto: UNKNOWN Received: by adv.IAEhv.nl (8.7.5/1.63) id UAA00811; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:12:47 +0200 (MET DST) From: devet@adv.IAEhv.nl (Arjan de Vet) Message-Id: <199610151812.UAA00811@adv.IAEhv.nl> Subject: Re: Direct UUCP stopped working but UUCP via PPP still works To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:12:47 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610150631.QAA30156@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from Bruce Evans at "Oct 15, 96 04:31:59 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL15 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Bruce Evans: >>Does anybody recognize these symptoms? Is it a hardware problem? If yes, >>why do I only see it with direct UUCP and not with UUCP over TCP/IP? > >Yes. Yes. Because uucp calls tcsetattr() a lot, and the buggy hardware >loses sync when the speed is set (even to the same value) while data is >arriving. Sync is not regained until data stops arriving. Fixed (mostly) >in -current by not setting the speed if the speed hasn't changed. Exactly, that seems to be the problem. I got a mail from Oleg N Panashchenko who pointed me to the following patch for 2.1 and 2.1.5 systems: ftp://ftp.tav.kiev.ua/pub/unix/FreeBSD/sio_FIFOfix.tgz This patched solved my problem. Thanks to all who replied to my question. Arjan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 11:50:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA28927 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:50:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA28900; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:50:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA00645; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:50:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610151850.LAA00645@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: hackers@freebsd.org cc: multimedia@freebsd.org Subject: Matrox Meteor, PPRO 200MHz and 440FX chipset Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:50:34 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Well, I had a nice chat with Intel and it seems that both Matrox and Intel are working hard on finding out what is wrong with the above combination. I put in my pitch about how easy it is to duplicate the problem on FreeBSD so at the very least this should not be a problem. For those who have missed my previous posting , if you run vic with the above configuration it will look up your PCI solid. "tv" as long as you don't save images to disk seems to work okay. Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 11:53:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA29169 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:53:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA29159; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:53:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA01269; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:52:59 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610151852.LAA01269@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: POSIX conformance test now free (fwd) To: hsu@freefall.freebsd.org (Jeffrey Hsu) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:52:59 -0700 (MST) Cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610150824.BAA12628@freefall.freebsd.org> from "Jeffrey Hsu" at Oct 15, 96 01:24:24 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Reading the Red Hat announcement I saw this: > > The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), has decided > to stop charging for their POSIX Conformance Test Suite 151-2, in > hopes that the POSIX standard may be more broadly applied. Red Hat > Software applauds the move, and has obtained the suites for > consideration. We would encourage all Linux developers to take > advantage of this development. Comments and questions can be directed > to Martha Gray at NIST. > > I don't have time to pursue this, but thought someone else might want > to look at it. I have sent off email requesting more information and availability. I've run NIST/PCTS before (at USL) as part of the testbed for our (their) NetWare atributed FS. I presume that certification still requires that the test suite be run by an approved testing laboratory. This is not free certification, if that is true (yes, I asked aout this in my email). So far, the suite is not on the NIST FTP site (which is sort of hidden), so there may be a nominal charge for media (ie: a CDROM or something). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 11:59:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA29898 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:59:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA29887; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:59:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA01292; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:58:33 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610151858.LAA01292@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:58:33 -0700 (MST) Cc: sos@FreeBSD.org, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610150938.TAA21719@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Oct 15, 96 07:08:29 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Should I assume that this is the "what static ELF binary is this" problem? > > > > Exactly, the static ELF program is run as a FreeBSD native bin, there > > is no way to know better (yet). > > I guess we'll have to provide a solution for this shortcoming in > > ELF (WHO said ELF was "the way to go" *sigh*) > > I can do a "quick&dirty"(tm) little program that marks ELF bins so that > > we can distinguish them, but it breaks the ELF std. one way or another. > > I don't think we want Q&D. I certainly don't. > > Where can I snarf the ELF spec to look at? This is going to get really > annying _very_ soon 8( You can pull down the SVR4_EABI specification from the ftp.linuxppc.org site (the Linux PPC project). There are more recent versions of the specification available from Motorolla, who maintain the thing for everyone. I can give you mail autoresponder addresses, if necessary. The ftp.uiunix.ui.org FTP server contents contained both ELF and DWARF specifications. They were part of the archive which I saved (along with the TET and ETET changes needed to run NIST/PCTS, actually, and the draft SPEC1170). If they are still maintaining the archive, it should be available from ftp.digibd.com (Digiboard). I think they recently changed their name? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 12:06:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA00723 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 12:06:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA00715; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 12:06:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA01321; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 12:06:01 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610151906.MAA01321@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) To: sos@FreeBSD.org Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 12:06:01 -0700 (MST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610150933.LAA13406@ra.dkuug.dk> from "sos@FreeBSD.org" at Oct 15, 96 11:33:42 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Should I assume that this is the "what static ELF binary is this" problem? > > Exactly, the static ELF program is run as a FreeBSD native bin, there > is no way to know better (yet). > I guess we'll have to provide a solution for this shortcoming in > ELF (WHO said ELF was "the way to go" *sigh*) > I can do a "quick&dirty"(tm) little program that marks ELF bins so that > we can distinguish them, but it breaks the ELF std. one way or another. With respect, Linux distinguished the SVR4 vs. Linux ELF binaries. It does this by looking for the ld.so reference (which it always includes so it can use dlopen/etc.) and seeing the word "linux" in the ld.so file name reference. I think they also look at the crt0 startup code in the static binary case. This is actually broken. If you read the SVR4_EABI spec, there is a large area before the first page mapping for the program start. Page 0 is reserved, since SVR4 typically maps the page instead of faulting on reference (UnixWare 2.x has an undocumented kernel configuration ption to cause page zero references to always fault -- bet you didn't know that). Pages after 0 and before the program start are for mapping the ld.so. The mapping is expected to be established by the kernel -- *NOT* by the crt0.o. The difference is "more than enough" space -- one of those idiotic hard-coded "magic" numbers, like "640k". In any case, the Linux "use the ld.so name" approach will fail in the case of the loader always providing the local ld.so for any binary with the right magic number. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 13:53:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA07951 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 13:53:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA07944 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 13:53:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id NAA23868 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 13:53:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id WAA11154 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:51:16 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id WAA15389 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:51:15 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.6/8.6.9) id WAA13493 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:34:55 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610152034.WAA13493@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: /sbin/init permission To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:34:55 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199610151829.NAA26258@brasil.moneng.mei.com> from Joe Greco at "Oct 15, 96 01:29:27 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Joe Greco wrote: > In any case, my real objection was to making uuxqt world executable. Nobody intended this, so: moot point. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 13:56:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA08089 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 13:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA08037; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 13:54:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SandBox.CyberCity.dk (disn36.cybercity.dk) by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA25283 (5.65c/IDA-1.5); Tue, 15 Oct 1996 13:53:23 -0700 Received: (from sos@localhost) by SandBox.CyberCity.dk (8.7.6/8.7.3) id WAA02300; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:41:18 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199610152041.WAA02300@SandBox.CyberCity.dk> Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:41:18 +0200 (MET DST) From: "Soren Schmidt" Cc: sos@FreeBSD.org, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610151906.MAA01321@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Oct 15, 96 12:06:01 pm From: sos@FreeBSD.org Reply-To: sos@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Terry Lambert who wrote: > > > > Should I assume that this is the "what static ELF binary is this" problem? > > > > Exactly, the static ELF program is run as a FreeBSD native bin, there > > is no way to know better (yet). > > I guess we'll have to provide a solution for this shortcoming in > > ELF (WHO said ELF was "the way to go" *sigh*) > > I can do a "quick&dirty"(tm) little program that marks ELF bins so that > > we can distinguish them, but it breaks the ELF std. one way or another. > > With respect, Linux distinguished the SVR4 vs. Linux ELF binaries. > > It does this by looking for the ld.so reference (which it always > includes so it can use dlopen/etc.) and seeing the word "linux" in > the ld.so file name reference. I think they also look at the crt0 > startup code in the static binary case. How come that took so long Terry ?? So do we in the dynamically linked case, almost all ELF implemetations on the x86 platform use different named/located interpreters. It is only the statically linked binaries that is the problem. Linux has the same problems we do, they have implemented another hack than the one I suggest, just their method isn't very robust but they're used to that, right :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Sxren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team Even more code to hack -- will it ever end .. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 14:00:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA08395 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 14:00:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wwwi.com (root@voltimand.csd.wwwi.com [199.1.92.12]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA08390 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 14:00:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cornelius (cornelius.csd.wwwi.com [199.1.92.20]) by wwwi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA03005 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 14:00:16 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 14:00:16 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199610152100.OAA03005@wwwi.com> X-Sender: jdw@pop.wwwi.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org From: "Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse" Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Let me begin by saying that is absolutely not my intention to flame Julian or anyone else... Julian has contributed infinitely more to the FreeBSD project than I have.. However I've noticed an attitude recently which disturbs me. I'm one of the most vehement toers-of-the-line when it comes to current vs. stable. In fact, despite the advances in -current that would make my life a little easier (and possibly faster), every single FreeBSD machine I have deployed, for myself and my customers, is running stable/2.1.5. All over the web site and in the docs it's billed as the "stable" version vs. current as an "experimental" version... and it is just that... very stable. Haven't had a single FreeBSD machine panic in ages... some under some very heavy loads. Meanwhile, I sat back and watched the debate about -current and whether it should be always buildable, etc, for the sake of the people who complained when it wasn't. I resisted the urge to say something about the silliness of expecting the experimental version to work 100% of the time on the old "If you don't have anything nice to say..." rule. Now, however, I'm a little concerned. Work on -stable has effectively stopped with 2.1.5 (reasons why no mystery to list readers). However, Brian's message is not the first time that someone has said "here is a problem in 2.1.5" and gotten a reponse of "that is fixed in 2.2" or "the behavior is different under 2.2" or even the dreaded "have you tried it on -current/2.2?" You [all] told me (on the web pages) not to run 2.2! I agreed 100% with the reasons listed why a person should choose -stable over -current for their production servers, and I did. Looking at the flurry of messages on the -current list about "oops, now it panics at [xxx] after [xxx] minutes" I think this was the right choice. I'm not crying for tech support of any kind, and I'm certainly not insisting that "somebody stop what you're doing and come fix my bugs!" I run stable, it is stable and I make no complaints. I have an HP CD-R in an NT machine because it won't work in 2.1.5 ("you should upgrade to current!") and the problem with pinging multiple IP address Brian mentioned is most annoying, but certainly of a minor impact. It's just that when someone says "I have a problem," and the answer is "We fixed that in the version you shouldn't use." That is like saying "Have this yummy cupcake," and then putting the cupcake behind 2 inches of plexiglass with "WARNING: hard hat area; experts only" painted on it. Ok, maybe it is not quite like that, but you see what I mean. ;-) I guess -current is getting awfully far ahead of -stable. Which is natural, since it's moving and -stable isn't. Maybe I'm the only one that's starting to feel left behind, like -stable's been unhooked from the FreeBSD train (partially because it was slowing the train down). Later, Jeff >Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 12:54:36 -0700 >From: Julian Elischer >Organization: Whistle Communications >To: Brian Candler >CC: bugs@FreeBSD.org, nato-ws@ripe.net, t12@psg.com >Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 >References: <199610151340.OAA00334@gazebo.candler.demon.co.uk> >Sender: owner-bugs@FreeBSD.org >X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >Brian Candler wrote: >> >> Dear FreeBSD team, >> >> I have just returned from a NATO-sponsored Advanced Networking Course held >> in St Petersburg, Russia, where I was the chief instructor. >> >> For our PC-based practical sessions we used FreeBSD 2.1.5. >> >NEAT! > >I hope each participant got a FreeBSD cdrom as part of the >course materials! :) > >> We uncovered a >> number of bugs in the TCP/IP code, which I would like to report in the hope >> they can be fixed in some future release. > >certainly.. >Have you looked at any of these problems with 2.2? > >> >> 1. On several occasions we found that although a default route appeared to >> be in the kernel forwarding table (as shown by netstat -nr), it did >> not work. However simply by deleting and reinserting the exact same >> default route, it then worked fine. I'm afraid I can't give you >> a set of circumstances which can cause this problem to be >> reproduced. >> >possibly another route preceeded it in some way >I can imagine such a case but can't quite put my finger on a >mechanism. > >> 2. When you set up a ppp link, you cannot ping your own IP number >> locally. (This is using kernel-based ppp, with pppd to set up the >> link) > >Under -current pinging the local end address certainly works.. >even if the link is not up. of course pinging the remote end fails :) > > > >> 3. When you use ipalias to set up multiple IP addresses for an >> ethernet card, you cannot ping those additional IP numbers locally. > >hmmmmm interesting... they are logically identical to the original. >address, it certainly works for me under -current. > > >> >> 4. If you 'ifconfig down' an interface, then set up a default route >> via another interface, you still cannot ping the range of IP numbers >> which the original interface covered - presumably the kernel still >> tries to send them via the (downed) interface. > >I think I've seen related things >sometimes the kernel keeps hold of rtentry structs with outdated >information, even though they are not in teh table any more.. >this is because the protocol PCBs 'cache' them and >there is no way to flush cached rtentry's. >It's on my "look at this some more" list > >> >> 5. On one occasion the kernel forwarding table had a bad entry (I >> think a "link #1" type entry) which could not be removed, apart from >> by rebooting the machine. >> > >sorry, no idea > > > >> I am unlikely to have time to look at the source code myself I'm >> afraid, but I hope you don't mind me submitting the notes above. Apart >> from these points, and "vi" dumping core a few times, FreeBSD was >> stable for the whole week we were using it. >> >without such feedback we'd have a much harder time fixing the system! > >> Thanks in advance for your attention, >> >> Brian Candler > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 14:07:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA08752 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 14:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mh004.infi.net (mh004.infi.net [198.22.1.119]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA08742 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 14:07:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SimsS-w95.ric.pmu.com by mh004.infi.net with ESMTP (Infinet-S-3.3) id RAA28111; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:07:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610152107.RAA28111@mh004.infi.net> Reply-To: From: "Steve Sims" To: Subject: Fw: Building world after cvsup Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:06:26 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk OK, no response on -questions, I'll try -hackers.... OK, I'm in uncharted territory (at least, for me). Ordinarily I simply pull whatever the latest source tree off of my latest CD and build the world whenever the mood strikes me. Lately I've been fascinated with the capabilities of 'cvsup` and figured, "What the heck, I'll give it a shot." I started with an empty /usr/src. I tweaked the CVSUP files to pull -stable into my tree. Hours later (14.4 - ugh) I had a spanking new source tree under /usr. Plenty of disk to spare (~700Mb). As root, (cd /usr/src ; make world). Poom! No success. Didn't know how to make cleandir. OK, 'make -DNOCLEANDIR world`. It doesn't like a *lot* of things in ctype.h. I could fiddle for days, but I'll cut to the chase; What are the steps necessary to build a -stable release after cvsup'ing the appropriate bits? (I started with the 960501 SNAP, for what that's worth.) Thanks! ....sjs... From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 14:28:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA09868 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 14:28:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA09860; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 14:28:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA01611; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 14:28:03 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610152128.OAA01611@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) To: sos@FreeBSD.org Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 14:28:03 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610152041.WAA02300@SandBox.CyberCity.dk> from "sos@FreeBSD.org" at Oct 15, 96 10:41:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > How come that took so long Terry ?? Heh. Instantly isn't fast enough for you? ;-). > So do we in the dynamically linked case, almost all ELF implemetations > on the x86 platform use different named/located interpreters. > It is only the statically linked binaries that is the problem. > Linux has the same problems we do, they have implemented another=20 > hack than the one I suggest, just their method isn't very robust > but they're used to that, right :) ELF has a general problem with binary type recognition. One way would be to steal codes from CPU type and distinguish with magic number, or vice versa. It should also be noted that it's kind of silly to follow the SVR4 EABI if you don't have the same trap entry points (ie: reallly follow it). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 14:39:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA10343 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 14:39:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SandBox.CyberCity.dk (disn57.cybercity.dk [194.16.57.57]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA10336; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 14:39:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by SandBox.CyberCity.dk (8.7.6/8.7.3) id XAA00198; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:39:23 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199610152139.XAA00198@SandBox.CyberCity.dk> Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:39:23 +0200 (MET DST) From: "Soren Schmidt" Cc: sos@FreeBSD.org, terry@lambert.org, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610152128.OAA01611@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Oct 15, 96 02:28:03 pm From: sos@FreeBSD.org Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Terry Lambert who wrote: > > > How come that took so long Terry ?? > > Heh. Instantly isn't fast enough for you? ;-). Ah it took you several hours :) > > So do we in the dynamically linked case, almost all ELF implemetations > > on the x86 platform use different named/located interpreters. > > It is only the statically linked binaries that is the problem. > > Linux has the same problems we do, they have implemented another=20 > > hack than the one I suggest, just their method isn't very robust > > but they're used to that, right :) > > ELF has a general problem with binary type recognition. Exactly, that my point... > One way would be to steal codes from CPU type and distinguish with > magic number, or vice versa. Hmm, well, yes but that *could* break on other archs then.. > It should also be noted that it's kind of silly to follow the SVR4 > EABI if you don't have the same trap entry points (ie: reallly follow > it). So right, why do we bother with ELF at all, we're no SVR4 (thank god)... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- SЬren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team Even more code to hack -- will it ever end .. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 14:42:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA10626 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 14:42:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA10323 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 14:39:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id XAA12699; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:38:47 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA16214; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:38:47 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.6/8.6.9) id XAA14028; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:29:45 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610152129.XAA14028@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Fw: Building world after cvsup To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:29:45 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: SimsS@Infi.Net Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199610152107.RAA28111@mh004.infi.net> from Steve Sims at "Oct 15, 96 05:06:26 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Steve Sims wrote: > I could fiddle for days, but I'll cut to the chase; What are the steps > necessary to build a -stable release after cvsup'ing the appropriate bits? > > (I started with the 960501 SNAP, for what that's worth.) Ah, therein lies the rub! Well, ``downgrading'' a system from 2.2 to 2.1.X is really a hard job. You might succeed if you try hard, but it won't go ``out of the box'', you need a good understanding of Makefiles, a quick `grep', and intimate knowledge on how to handle `more' (or `less', if you prefer) in a timely fashion, mostly for the files under /usr/share/mk/. ``make world'' was simply intended only for the other way round: upgrading a system. Whenever some tool is required before you can upgrade, it will make its way into one of the special targets of /usr/src/Makefile. Naturally, nobody maintains the same set of tools for a downgrade. So sorry to say, but you're mostly on your own. (I've once had a hard time making a 2.1.5 prerelease from within my 2.2-current system, and this even though `make release' mostly runs inside a chroot'ed tree. One of the showstoppers were new shared libs that will always get precedence over old ones.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 14:43:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA10748 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 14:43:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA10743; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 14:43:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA01669; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 14:42:51 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610152142.OAA01669@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) To: sos@FreeBSD.org Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 14:42:51 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610152139.XAA00198@SandBox.CyberCity.dk> from "sos@FreeBSD.org" at Oct 15, 96 11:39:23 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > It should also be noted that it's kind of silly to follow the SVR4 > > EABI if you don't have the same trap entry points (ie: reallly follow > > it). > > So right, why do we bother with ELF at all, we're no SVR4 (thank god)... Dll's, COM, ActiveX, NT SCSI and video drivers, Microsoft software of various ilks, the ability to attribute segments and therefore page types in the loader, the ability to use the same loader for executables and shared libraries, etc.. Need I go on? 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 15:27:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA13304 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 15:27:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from amdext.amd.com (amdext.amd.com [139.95.251.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA13295 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 15:27:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from amdint.amd.com by amdext.amd.com with SMTP id AA15123 (5.67a/IDA-1.5+AMD for ); Tue, 15 Oct 1996 15:27:04 -0700 Received: from auhp1.amd.com by amdint.amd.com with SMTP id AA17405 (5.67a/IDA-1.5+AMD for ); Tue, 15 Oct 1996 15:27:03 -0700 Received: from auhp33 by auhp1.amd.com (1.38.193.4/CAM1.01(Original AMDSN-1.20)) id AA25565; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:24:06 -0500 Received: by auhp33.amd.com (1.39.111.2/AMDC-1.20) id AA207178246; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:24:06 -0500 From: Mike.ODonnell@amd.com (Mike O'Donnell) Message-Id: <199610152224.AA207178246@auhp33.amd.com> Subject: unsubscribe To: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:24:05 CDT X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 111.1] Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk unsubscribe -- Mike O'Donnell Email: mike.odonnell@amd.com Senior Technical Systems Analyst Office: (512) 602-6141 Advanced Micro Devices Pager: (512) 207-2381 5204 E Ben White MS557, Austin TX 78741 Fax: (512) 602-4812 From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 15:38:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA13893 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 15:38:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA13886 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 15:38:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from current1.whistle.com (current1.whistle.com [207.76.205.22]) by alpo.whistle.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA03215; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 15:37:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <32641190.3F54BC7E@whistle.com> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 15:34:56 -0700 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse" CC: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 References: <199610152100.OAA03005@wwwi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse wrote: > > > > Let me begin by saying that is absolutely not my intention to > flame Julian or anyone else... Julian has contributed infinitely > more to the FreeBSD project than I have.. However I've noticed > an attitude recently which disturbs me. That's ok, I take this as constructive discussion. > > I'm one of the most vehement toers-of-the-line when it comes to > current vs. stable. In fact, despite the advances in -current > that would make my life a little easier (and possibly faster), > every single FreeBSD machine I have deployed, for myself and my > customers, is running stable/2.1.5. All over the web site and > in the docs it's billed as the "stable" version vs. current as > an "experimental" version... and it is just that... very stable. > Haven't had a single FreeBSD machine panic in ages... some under > some very heavy loads. that is correct. The reason is that while we try make -current always (almost ) compile, and yet have a -stable, is that if we didn't provide a 'stable' release, those of us trying to make forward progress would have to spend our whole life supporting "mission critical" applications under teh shifting sands of -current. Keeping a -stable release gives us some breathing space. I'm amazed at David's patience in keeping it as clean as he has. However the fact remains that many of us regard freeBSD as having MAJOR FLAWS (not neccesarily being the same as reliability problems) and feel that we MUST move forward to correct those. One of the major pushes under -current has been (for example) dynamic configuration, and we have been shifting a lot of building blocks for this into place. Hopefully when they are all there, FreeBSD will "Suddenly" (after several years of hard work) "grow" dynamic configuration. Another is keeping up with the ever changing world of networking technology. These things however bring instability, and I for one am VERY GRATEFUL for people such as yourself who, for applications which don't require new features, have used the -stable release. > > Meanwhile, I sat back and watched the debate about -current and > whether it should be always buildable, etc, for the sake of the > people who complained when it wasn't. I resisted the urge to > say something about the silliness of expecting the experimental > version to work 100% of the time on the old "If you don't have > anything nice to say..." rule. Hopefully those conversations mostly occur in the current mailing lists.. > > Now, however, I'm a little concerned. Work on -stable has > effectively stopped with 2.1.5 (reasons why no mystery to list > readers). However, Brian's message is not the first time that > someone has said "here is a problem in 2.1.5" and gotten a > reponse of "that is fixed in 2.2" or "the behavior is different > under 2.2" or even the dreaded "have you tried it on -current/2.2?" > > You [all] told me (on the web pages) not to run 2.2 I didn't ask him to do his work on 2.2, I asked him if by some chance he had seen whether that problem extended to 2.2. This is important information when I'm considering whether to go chasing all through the source code looking for a bug.. :) (I also checked his examples on a 2.2 box when I could you will notice.) Now consider why I might ask this question? I am weeks away from releasing hundreds of machines based on LAST WEEK's (plus tweaks) version of -current. You might consider it selfish, but my interest right now is in -current. As a developer I'm puting my own free time over the next N months on the line by deciding when to take snapshots of -current and when and how to patch them. Now I for one wouldn't suggest that everyone do this unless they are ready to support the systems themselves, but I am, and I'm willing to do that work to get features i want in -current. > > I agreed 100% with the reasons listed why a person should > choose -stable over -current for their production servers, and I did. > Looking at the flurry of messages on the -current list about "oops, > now it panics at [xxx] after [xxx] minutes" I think this was the > right choice. sure and I thank you :) but I'm working on -current, trying to get IT to a similarly stable place. > > I'm not crying for tech support of any kind, and I'm certainly not > insisting that "somebody stop what you're doing and come fix my bugs!" > I run stable, it is stable and I make no complaints. I have an HP > CD-R in an NT machine because it won't work in 2.1.5 ("you should upgrade > to current!") and the problem with pinging multiple IP address Brian > mentioned is most annoying, but certainly of a minor impact. > > It's just that when someone says "I have a problem," and the answer is > "We fixed that in the version you shouldn't use." That is like saying > "Have this yummy cupcake," and then putting the cupcake behind 2 inches > of plexiglass with "WARNING: hard hat area; experts only" painted on it. ok I can see that might be true. But it was not what I wanted to say.. remember I want you to be able to get to the cupcake asap and I'm working hard to make that possible.. If I spend too much time working on 2.1.5 tehn that delays the moment that I can give you the cupcake.. alternatively, you can always look in the -current sources and check out all the edits to see what changed. I wasn't trying to say that you MUST however.. but I have my own perspective on this.. > > Ok, maybe it is not quite like that, but you see what I mean. ;-) > > I guess -current is getting awfully far ahead of -stable. Which is > natural, since it's moving and -stable isn't. Maybe I'm the only one > that's starting to feel left behind, like -stable's been unhooked > from the FreeBSD train (partially because it was slowing the > train down). yes but the reason that the train is moving at all is to get to you faster.. :) > > Later, > Jeff julian From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 16:59:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA19351 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 16:59:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA19346 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 16:59:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA14390; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 16:59:19 -0700 (PDT) To: "Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse" cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 15 Oct 1996 14:00:16 PDT." <199610152100.OAA03005@wwwi.com> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 16:59:18 -0700 Message-ID: <14388.845423958@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > It's just that when someone says "I have a problem," and the answer is > "We fixed that in the version you shouldn't use." That is like saying > "Have this yummy cupcake," and then putting the cupcake behind 2 inches > of plexiglass with "WARNING: hard hat area; experts only" painted on it. This is a valid point, and I'll agree with you that some folks probably should be a little *less* willing to suggest running 2.2 to anyone who comes forward with a problem which we know we've fixed in the -current branch. I do it myself, and it's damn easy to forget this when one's perspective of -current is so much different than the "party line" being expressed on the web pages. However, this still doesn't quite solve the problems, of course, and what really need to happen is for 2.2.0-RELEASE to go out so that a "blessed" version can finally exist for folks to upgrade to. As you noted, 2.1-stable is effectively dead and 2.2-current is roped off with lots of yellow police barrier tape. Not a comfortable state of equilibrium by any means, and a matter we've been discussion in core for a couple of days now. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 17:02:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA19513 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:02:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wwwi.com (root@voltimand.csd.wwwi.com [199.1.92.12]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA19504 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cornelius (cornelius.csd.wwwi.com [199.1.92.20]) by wwwi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA28927; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:02:02 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:02:02 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199610160002.RAA28927@wwwi.com> X-Sender: jdw@pop.wwwi.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Julian Elischer , "Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse" From: "Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse" Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 03:34 PM 10/15/96 -0700, Julian Elischer wrote: >However the fact remains that many of >us regard freeBSD as having MAJOR FLAWS >(not neccesarily being the same as reliability problems) >and feel that we MUST move forward to correct those. >These things however bring instability, and I for one am VERY GRATEFUL >for people such as yourself who, for applications which don't >require new features, have used the -stable release. I don't disagree with what you're saying at all. But take a look at some of the other stuff... "small" and not-so-small. First, look at my CD-R. -current has had support for the HP CD-R for quite some time now (like almost a year) but no support in -stable. I ask on the list if someone knows any way to make it work on -stable and the only response I get besides a couple of "I'd like to know this too"s is "just upgrade to current." The latest (two) current SNAP(s) feature protection against the recently "discoved" SYN attack. Forgive me if I missed a patch to -stable but my "applications which don't require new features" (e.g. my production web server) suddenly do, but trading out for the -current roller coaster is clearly not the answer. As for the kind of bugs Brian was talking about, they are relatively minor, and in fact most of them have been fixed, but when it boils down to "these bugs are fixed, just not for you" I frown. Dynamic configuration I'm prepared to wait a couple of years for. Threading I want so bad it hurts but it's no easy thing (and of limited merit without SMP) but these things are complicated and take time, so I'll wait until they're stable/ready. Ideally, the big things shouldn't hold up every other patch, serious bug fix, security hole, and new feature that comes along in the meantime, but that is exactly what is happening. >(I also checked his examples on a 2.2 box when I could you will notice.) See above about "these bugs are fixed, just not for you." I'm not faulting you for asking him if he also happened to test it out on -current. If I am reporting a bug in 2.1.5, though, "I checked this on 2.2 and it's just dandy" brings me no closer to a solution. >You might consider it selfish, but my interest right now is in -current. Hey, I am in no position to consider anyone who contributes directly to the FreeBSD project selfish. I'm certainly not saying that you, Julian Elischer, are hereby commanded by God to lay aside thy current project and fix my bugs. I know I'm too busy to track this sort of thing down and fix it myself, so it is no leap to see that you are too. But they are a lot of talented people on this list, and many of them DO have some time... heck people frequently write to one or another list and say "what can I do?". Here's something for them to do. I wish it was something I had time and resources for myself, because it would be a great way to learn about the workings of FreeBSD. >ok I can see that might be true. >But it was not what I wanted to say.. >remember I want you to be able to get to the cupcake >asap and I'm working hard to make that possible.. >If I spend too much time working on 2.1.5 >tehn that delays the moment that I can give you >the cupcake.. >alternatively, you can always look in the -current sources and >check out all the edits to see what changed. I wasn't trying to say >that you MUST however.. but I have my own perspective on this.. See above. Your livelihood depends (directly or indirectly) on hacking FreeBSD. Lucky guy. As fun as it would be, mine doesn't, not anymore than it depends on hacking Solaris, WinNT, BSDI, Irix, or any of the other OSs sitting under my desk right now. Out of all of the choices (I have to have one of pretty much everything for compatibility testing) for what to run my internal stuff on, I choose to use FreeBSD-stable because it's among the very best, and certainly the most cost effective in terms of software (being free) and hardware (my FreeBSD hardware nickel goes a whole lot farther than with any other OS). That's a good thing. But just because I don't have the time to go improve it myself doesn't mean I can't offer suggestions about how it might be improved. Later, Jeff From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 17:11:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA19990 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:11:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (austin.polstra.com [206.213.73.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA19984; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:11:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (jdp@localhost) by austin.polstra.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA08338; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:11:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610160011.RAA08338@austin.polstra.com> To: sos@freebsd.org cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:16:41 +0200." <199610151816.UAA01759@SandBox.CyberCity.dk> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:11:26 -0700 From: John Polstra Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > The Note section idea also doesn't solve the entire problem. We could > > mark our own FreeBSD ELF files with Note sections, so we could recognize > > them. But unless we could persuade the Linux people to do likewise, we'd > > still be unable to distinguish between Linux ELF files and SVR4 ELF files. > > This is going to be a problem no matter what we do, though. > > So, you agree with me after all :) :-) I don't even know any more whether I "agree" with you. I guess I just have a slightly different perspective. However, I must admit that you are beginning to swing me over to your point of view ... > Its not even enough to distinguish between Linux/FreeBSD (which we > could with note sections) and the rest, we will eventually have to > be able to tell Solaris/DGUX/Olivetti-SVR4/NCR-SVR4/whatnot from > each other too, or we will be in hell anyway. I know for a fact > that if we are going to do SVR4 emulation we will NEED a way to > tell them apart. Yes. > So having a nice little util that marks the ELF header in ways for > us to know is the ONLY solution to this problem, like it or not. I like this idea. We can't expect foreign files to arrive in a recognizable state, so we need to be able to "brand" them ourselves. The utility should also be able to "unbrand" a file, returning it to its original form. > I propose that we use some unused space in the ELF header. The ELF > header starts with a 16byte char field, where only the first 8 are > used in all the ELF/i386 incarnations I've seen, so we can put a > 8 char text here for the platform (that can easily be seen with > the file(1) cmd too). Simple, easy, nice hack, works.... This is the kind of hack that I've argued against all along. But I suppose it may be the only choice, if we want to be able to brand an existing file. We can't use my Note section idea, because adding a header to the program header part of the file shifts everything else down in the file, changes the addresses of things in the program, and so forth. It would be easy to add it in the link phase, but we are not reasonably going to be able to control the link phase. It _is_ starting to sound like I agree with you, isn't it? :-) John -- John Polstra jdp@polstra.com John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA "Self-knowledge is always bad news." -- John Barth From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 17:28:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA20898 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:28:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net ([198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA20892 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:28:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA06629; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:28:04 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199610160028.TAA06629@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:28:04 -0500 (EST) Cc: jdw@wwwi.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <14388.845423958@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Oct 15, 96 04:59:18 pm Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > It's just that when someone says "I have a problem," and the answer is > > "We fixed that in the version you shouldn't use." That is like saying > > "Have this yummy cupcake," and then putting the cupcake behind 2 inches > > of plexiglass with "WARNING: hard hat area; experts only" painted on it. > > This is a valid point, and I'll agree with you that some folks > probably should be a little *less* willing to suggest running 2.2 to > anyone who comes forward with a problem which we know we've fixed in > the -current branch. I do it myself, and it's damn easy to forget > this when one's perspective of -current is so much different than the > "party line" being expressed on the web pages. > I am one of the worst offenders at making 2.2-current not safe to use :-), but note that at work, I have NO control over which version of FreeBSD that we are using and only a little influence. In my production environment at work, they won't even think about touching -current, and stick with 2.1.x+patches. The reason isn't that they can't fix it (I can fix almost any problem that I can reproduce.) It is that they don't want to spend resources (me) keeping up with the latest -current, simple as that. So, I am "punished" having to use 2.1.5 at work, when I use U**X, but I also don't get hassled all of the time about something that I broke with my other, FreeBSD hat on :-). I believe that -current is okay to use in production, but it means that the user has to manage his/her own release engineering and be much more consious of quality control issues. In essence, I think that FreeBSD-current is more expensive to run, and for some people the generally improved operation of the system justifies the cost. I guess that I am just letting you know that I have the same problem that alot of users of 2.1.x do... 2.1.x is good, but 2.2 (or whatever) will be significantly better (and can't wait to use it at work :-))... John dyson@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 18:12:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA23575 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:12:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA23567; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:12:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id KAA27443; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:41:58 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199610160111.KAA27443@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) To: sos@FreeBSD.org Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:41:57 +0930 (CST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610152139.XAA00198@SandBox.CyberCity.dk> from "sos@FreeBSD.org" at Oct 15, 96 11:39:23 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk sos@FreeBSD.org stands accused of saying: > > > It should also be noted that it's kind of silly to follow the SVR4 > > EABI if you don't have the same trap entry points (ie: reallly follow > > it). > > So right, why do we bother with ELF at all, we're no SVR4 (thank god)... Because the same sort of wankers who say "Linux was the first server platform to have a working defence against the SYN attack" (1) in the popular press also tend to say "Linux has ELF which makes it clearly superior to everything else which doesn't." I know we've argued the merits of positive publicity, but I for one get Really Pissed Off at how much harder this floating crapulent haze can make my job. (1) Linux wasn't the first, and it's not a server platform. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 18:17:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA23789 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:17:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA23784 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:17:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id KAA27501; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:47:45 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199610160117.KAA27501@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 To: jdw@wwwi.com (Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:47:45 +0930 (CST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610152100.OAA03005@wwwi.com> from "Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse" at Oct 15, 96 02:00:16 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse stands accused of saying: > > I guess -current is getting awfully far ahead of -stable. Which is > natural, since it's moving and -stable isn't. Maybe I'm the only one > that's starting to feel left behind, like -stable's been unhooked > from the FreeBSD train (partially because it was slowing the train down). The -stable banner was _very_ prominently offered to any one or group who wanted to carry it forward, and there were lots of "we would love you if you did" noises from people at the thought. But nobody has taken it up. Does -stable matter to you? Do you or your business want to see -stable move forwards? THEN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Nothing will happen if nobody makes it happen. FreeBSD has to go somewhere, and 2.2 is where. The people that are doing the going are headed that way, so if -stable is to continue at all, it needs someone else to look out for it. > Jeff -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 18:39:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA24865 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:39:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA24856 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:39:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA27666; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:08:58 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199610160138.LAA27666@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Fw: Building world after cvsup To: SimsS@Infi.Net Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:08:57 +0930 (CST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610152107.RAA28111@mh004.infi.net> from "Steve Sims" at Oct 15, 96 05:06:26 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Steve Sims stands accused of saying: > > I started with an empty /usr/src. I tweaked the CVSUP files to pull > -stable into my tree. Hours later (14.4 - ugh) I had a spanking new source > tree under /usr. Plenty of disk to spare (~700Mb). > > As root, (cd /usr/src ; make world). Poom! No success. Didn't know how to > make cleandir. OK, 'make -DNOCLEANDIR world`. It doesn't like a *lot* of > things in ctype.h. > > I could fiddle for days, but I'll cut to the chase; What are the steps > necessary to build a -stable release after cvsup'ing the appropriate bits? > > (I started with the 960501 SNAP, for what that's worth.) Downgrading from 2.2 to 2.1 is not supported in any fasion. If you want -stable, start from 2.1.5. > ....sjs... -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 18:47:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA25186 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:47:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA25177; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:47:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA27723; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:17:46 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199610160147.LAA27723@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) To: sos@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:17:45 +0930 (CST) Cc: jdp@polstra.com, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610151816.UAA01759@SandBox.CyberCity.dk> from "sos@freebsd.org" at Oct 15, 96 08:16:41 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk sos@freebsd.org stands accused of saying: > > Its not even enough to distinguish between Linux/FreeBSD (which we could > with note sections) and the rest, we will eventually have to be able to > tell Solaris/DGUX/Olivetti-SVR4/NCR-SVR4/whatnot from each other too, > or we will be in hell anyway. I know for a fact that if we are going > to do SVR4 emulation we will NEED a way to tell them apart. So having > a nice little util that marks the ELF header in ways for us to know > is the ONLY solution to this problem, like it or not. Ok; I'm with you. So how does this sound, for an ELF binary under consideration to be executed : - Look at CPU type (if there is room to hijack this), or 'branding area' if not, to determine binary type. - Look at ld.so path (if present) and attempt to infer type from this. - Fail execution of the binary, with an error to the user and perhaps also the console indicating that an unidentifiable ELF binary was invoked. > I propose that we use some unused space in the ELF header. The ELF header > starts with a 16byte char field, where only the first 8 are used in > all the ELF/i386 incarnations I've seen, so we can put a 8 char > text here for the platform (that can easily be seen with the file(1) > cmd too). Simple, easy, nice hack, works.... Sounds OK. I will hit the references Terry has proffered and see what, if anything, I can come up with. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 18:52:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA25437 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:52:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.50.29]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA25432; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:52:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA08780; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:40:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610160140.SAA08780@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Michael Smith Cc: sos@freebsd.org, terry@lambert.org, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:40:29 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:41:57 +0930 (CST) Michael Smith wrote: > Because the same sort of wankers who say "Linux was the first server > platform to have a working defence against the SYN attack" (1) in the > popular press also tend to say "Linux has ELF which makes it clearly > superior to everything else which doesn't." Actually, a good argument for using ELF is "ELF is just better". For a long time, I was not at all enthusiastic about switching NetBSD to ELF. However, I have since seen the light (one of the major benefits of using ELF is that all of NetBSD's supported platforms can run from a single toolchain source). There are also cool trick wrt read-only data and other things you can do with ELF. So, it's not all marketing hype :-) Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: 408.866.1912 NAS: M/S 258-6 Work: 415.604.0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: 415.428.6939 From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 19:05:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA26159 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:05:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA26150 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:05:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA08280; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:04:35 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:04:35 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199610160204.UAA08280@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: Michael Smith Cc: jdw@wwwi.com (Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse), freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-Reply-To: <199610160117.KAA27501@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> References: <199610152100.OAA03005@wwwi.com> <199610160117.KAA27501@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael Smith writes: > Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse stands accused of saying: > > > > I guess -current is getting awfully far ahead of -stable. Which is > > natural, since it's moving and -stable isn't. Maybe I'm the only one > > that's starting to feel left behind, like -stable's been unhooked > > from the FreeBSD train (partially because it was slowing the train down). > > The -stable banner was _very_ prominently offered to any one or group who > wanted to carry it forward, and there were lots of "we would love you if > you did" noises from people at the thought. > > But nobody has taken it up. Does -stable matter to you? Do you or your > business want to see -stable move forwards? THEN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. To followup on it. I gave up doing work on -stable b/c I felt like one lone voice in the wilderness, and given my lack of involvement in projects I *should* be doing (mobile/laptop stuff) I decided it wasn't worth my time to try and back-port stuff to -stable. That being said, I will do my best to integrate patches into -stable that folks submit to me IFF they have been fully tested. I have a laptop which has 2 disks which runs -stable on one and -current on the other, so I can at least give it a quick test on my box before integrating it into the system. Also, I'm not going to integrate anything 'huge' and or significantly because of the -stable charter. So, if you want to provide me some patches, I'll get them into stable. But, folks need to make it *really* easy for me to do by making them apply against -stable w/out problems (no funky diffs with extraneous changes) and that will work (ie; no crashes), that provide obvious *needed* functionality (ex; SYN flooding patches would be OK, changing permissions on init would be rejected). Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 19:26:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA29016 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:26:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA29009; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:26:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA28208; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:55:21 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199610160225.LAA28208@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:55:21 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, sos@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610151858.LAA01292@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Oct 15, 96 11:58:33 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert stands accused of saying: > > There are more recent versions of the specification available from > Motorolla, who maintain the thing for everyone. I can give you mail > autoresponder addresses, if necessary. That would be handy, ta. > The ftp.uiunix.ui.org FTP server contents contained both ELF and DWARF > specifications. They were part of the archive which I saved (along > with the TET and ETET changes needed to run NIST/PCTS, actually, and > the draft SPEC1170). > > If they are still maintaining the archive, it should be available from > ftp.digibd.com (Digiboard). I think they recently changed their name? ftp.dgii.com:/pub/uiarchive. DWARF, but no ELF. > Terry Lambert -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 19:27:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA29051 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:27:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA29044 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:27:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id VAA26891; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 21:24:46 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610160224.VAA26891@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 21:24:46 -0500 (CDT) Cc: jdw@wwwi.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610160117.KAA27501@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Oct 16, 96 10:47:45 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Nothing will happen if nobody makes it happen. FreeBSD has to go > somewhere, and 2.2 is where. The people that are doing the going are > headed that way, so if -stable is to continue at all, it needs someone > else to look out for it. I think I would prefer to see effort spent to get -current into reasonable shape and then go through the release process. It seems to me that we have a situation here not unlike one which has already happened in the past: FreeBSD 1.1.5.1R was released largely as a cleanup release to 1.1R, legal reasons set aside for the time being. By that time, FreeBSD-current had already moved well along the way to 2.0R. That was a big project, and (no disrespect meant to anyone because it was an INCREDIBLE feat!) eventually a very rough at the edges 2.0R went out the door. The important point is that a line was drawn in the sand and something was pushed out the door. Now my understanding is that -current work split off sometime around 2.0.5R, which means that we have been through three releases of this same "-stable" branch. There is, in my opinion, some good to that, but there is also an ever widening divergence of -current and -stable. As a matter of fact, -stable has all but been orphaned now, just as 1.1.5.1R was left behind at a certain point. So... I would rather see a 2.2R that was, perhaps, a bit rough at the edges (like 2.0R) sooner rather than later. That's the best way to get exposure. It's also one way to get something out the door. If need be, make it clear to people that 2.1.5R may be a more suitable choice for the sake of stability, and follow up with a 2.2.5R cleanup release to handle the problems discovered in 2.2R. At some point, the line has to be drawn. I am curious to know if -core has an opinion on where the line should be (or maybe even has been) drawn. ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 19:35:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA29712 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:35:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA29701 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:35:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id MAA28294; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:02:43 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199610160232.MAA28294@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 To: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com (Joe Greco) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:02:42 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, jdw@wwwi.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610160224.VAA26891@brasil.moneng.mei.com> from "Joe Greco" at Oct 15, 96 09:24:46 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joe Greco stands accused of saying: > > So... I would rather see a 2.2R that was, perhaps, a bit rough at the > edges (like 2.0R) sooner rather than later. That's the best way to get > exposure. It's also one way to get something out the door. I tend to agree with this; it fits in quite well with the even/odd numbering strategy that came up about a year ago, where even-numbered releases are 'major feature updates', and minor numbered releases are 'stability updates'. > If need be, make it clear to people that 2.1.5R may be a more suitable > choice for the sake of stability, and follow up with a 2.2.5R cleanup > release to handle the problems discovered in 2.2R. I would be more inclined to have 2.2 out at some point, and then have a 2.2-stable thread (if personpower can be found for it) leading hopefully to a 2.3 release, and with development proceeding along the 2.4-current thread. > I am curious to know if -core has an opinion on where the line should > be (or maybe even has been) drawn. I would expect that they do (Jordan has hinted that discussions are going on, which is a positive sign). > ... JG -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 19:38:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA29890 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wwwi.com (root@voltimand.csd.wwwi.com [199.1.92.12]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA29881 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:38:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cornelius (cornelius.csd.wwwi.com [199.1.92.20]) by wwwi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA12637 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:38:08 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:38:08 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199610160238.TAA12637@wwwi.com> X-Sender: jdw@pop.wwwi.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org From: "Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse" Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 10:47 AM 10/16/96 +0930, Michael Smith wrote: >Does -stable matter to you? Do you or your >business want to see -stable move forwards? THEN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. It's really hard not to say something dreadfully sarcastic here. Especially after I specifically addressed this point in my previous messages. It's really nice that you have enough time to work on FreeBSD, but not all of us are so lucky. The attitude that my (or anyone else's) opinion is unimportant because I'm "only" a user is counterproductive. >Nothing will happen if nobody makes it happen. FreeBSD has to go >somewhere, and 2.2 is where. I wasn't suggesting that 2.1.5 should diverge at all, only that it may be time to start thinking about the possibly large portion of the FreeBSD userbase that isn't seeing any of the benefit of all the hard work you're doing. Later, Jeff From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 19:48:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA00728 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:48:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from friley216.res.iastate.edu (friley216.res.iastate.edu [129.186.78.216]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA00714 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:48:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from friley216.res.iastate.edu (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by friley216.res.iastate.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA00535 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 21:47:55 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199610160247.VAA00535@friley216.res.iastate.edu> To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Proposed addition to sys/time.h.. Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 21:47:55 -0500 From: "Chris Csanady" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I was wondering if someone would like to add in the following macros from NetBSD's sys/time.h. They are really quite handy. Anyway, I really hate sending this here, but what should I do with small code change requests/etc? Laters, Chris Csanady #define timeradd(tvp, uvp, vvp) \ do { \ (vvp)->tv_sec = (tvp)->tv_sec + (uvp)->tv_sec; \ (vvp)->tv_usec = (tvp)->tv_usec + (uvp)->tv_usec; \ if ((vvp)->tv_usec >= 1000000) { \ (vvp)->tv_sec++; \ (vvp)->tv_usec -= 1000000; \ } \ } while (0) #define timersub(tvp, uvp, vvp) \ do { \ (vvp)->tv_sec = (tvp)->tv_sec - (uvp)->tv_sec; \ (vvp)->tv_usec = (tvp)->tv_usec - (uvp)->tv_usec; \ if ((vvp)->tv_usec < 0) { \ (vvp)->tv_sec--; \ (vvp)->tv_usec += 1000000; \ } \ } while (0) From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 20:07:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA01728 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:07:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wwwi.com (root@voltimand.csd.wwwi.com [199.1.92.12]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA01721 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:07:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cornelius (cornelius.csd.wwwi.com [199.1.92.20]) by wwwi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA23003 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:07:32 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:07:32 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199610160307.UAA23003@wwwi.com> X-Sender: jdw@pop.wwwi.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org From: "Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse" Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 09:24 PM 10/15/96 -0500, Joe Greco wrote: >Now my understanding is that -current work split off sometime around >2.0.5R, which means that we have been through three releases of this >same "-stable" branch. There is, in my opinion, some good to that, but >there is also an ever widening divergence of -current and -stable. That divergance is exactly the problem I am trying to point out. Already three "significant contributors" people have said that -stable isn't worth the trouble. However, stable is the only choice for people who want a stable OS who don't have a lot of time to invest in sanitizing their own private -current. >So... I would rather see a 2.2R that was, perhaps, a bit rough at the >edges (like 2.0R) sooner rather than later. I agree. If -stable has abandoned, it's time to look toward something new. Based on the assertions that several people have made that "current is usually fairly stable," it seems like the benefits of this might far outweigh the effort, or at least the possibility is real enough to discuss. Later, Jeff From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 20:36:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA03003 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:36:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA02973; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:36:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from agora.rdrop.com (root@agora.rdrop.com [199.2.210.241]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id UAA24530 ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:36:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ix.comcat.com by agora.rdrop.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #17) id m0vDMkj-00095eC; Tue, 15 Oct 96 20:34 PDT Received: (from desslock@localhost) by ix.comcat.com (8.7.6/BTS/bts.sm-1.2) id XAA24428; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:30:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:30:56 -0400 (EDT) From: John Bowman To: hackers@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org Subject: PPP problem Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-667069687-845436656=:24293" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. --0-667069687-845436656=:24293 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ok... here's the scoop. I've followed the directions in the FreeBSD handbook for setting up PPP for version 2.1.5. I've also perused the sample config files in the /etc/ppp directory. It seems that PPP will make the connection to my internet service provider. I can even see the local and remote IP addresses through "show ipcp". The problem that I have is when I actually try to ping/traceroute/telnet to an IP address, I get the error, "No route to host". What am I doing wrong? I've attached my configuration files if that helps in the debugging. I've tried two different ppp.linkup files, so I've attached both. It seems like I can connect, but I can't get anywhere. :( System config: 486DX4-100 32 Meg RAM 1.6 Gig Hard Drive XFree86 v3.1.2 Cardinal 28.8 External Modem Thanks in advance, -John --0-667069687-845436656=:24293 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; name=hosts Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64 Content-ID: Content-Description: IyAkSWQ6IGhvc3RzLHYgMS41LjQuNCAxOTk2LzA2LzE3IDA5OjE3OjAzIGpr aCBFeHAgJA0KIw0KIyBIb3N0IERhdGFiYXNlDQojIFRoaXMgZmlsZSBzaG91 bGQgY29udGFpbiB0aGUgYWRkcmVzc2VzIGFuZCBhbGlhc2VzDQojIGZvciBs b2NhbCBob3N0cyB0aGF0IHNoYXJlIHRoaXMgZmlsZS4NCiMgSW4gdGhlIHBy ZXNlbmNlIG9mIHRoZSBkb21haW4gbmFtZSBzZXJ2aWNlIG9yIE5JUywgdGhp cyBmaWxlIG1heQ0KIyBub3QgYmUgY29uc3VsdGVkIGF0IGFsbDsgc2VlIC9l dGMvaG9zdC5jb25mIGZvciB0aGUgcmVzb2x1dGlvbiBvcmRlci4NCiMNCiMN CjEyNy4wLjAuMQkJbG9jYWxob3N0DQowLjAuMC4wCQkJV2VsY29tZS5Uby5N eS5Eb21haW4NCiMNCiMgSW1hZ2luYXJ5IG5ldHdvcmsuDQojMTAuMC4wLjIJ CW15bmFtZS5teS5kb21haW4gbXluYW1lDQojMTAuMC4wLjMJCW15ZnJpZW5k 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aW9uLiBXZSBzaW1wbHkgdXNlIGNoYXQgc2NyaXB0IGNhcGFiaWxpdHkNCiMg IGFuZCB3YWl0IGZvciBhICJOTyBDQVJSSUVSIiByZXNwb25zZSBmcm9tIG91 ciBtb2RlbS4NCiMNCiMgICUgcHBwIGNhbGxiYWNrDQojDQpjYWxsYmFjazoN CiBzZXQgcGhvbmUgMDMxMjM0NTY3OA0KIHNldCBsb2dpbiAiQUJPUlQgTk9c XHNDQVJSSUVSIFRJTUVPVVQgNSBsb2dpbjotXFxyLWxvZ2luOiBNeU5hbWUg d29yZDogTXlTZWNyZXQgVElNRU9VVCAyMCBEVU1NWSINCiBzZXQgZGVidWcg cGhhc2UgY2hhdA0KIGRpYWwNCiBxdWl0DQojDQojIEV4YW1wbGUgZm9yIFBQ UC9URUxORVQgYW5kIFBQUC9UQ1AuIFJlYWQgZG9jIGZvciBmdXJ0aGVyIGRl dGFpbHMNCiMNCnBwcHRlbG5ldDoNCiBzZXQgZXNjYXBlIDB4ZmYNCnBwcHRj cDoNCiBzZXQgZGV2aWNlIDE5Mi4yNDQuMTkxLjMzOjI0MDANCg== --0-667069687-845436656=:24293-- From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 20:37:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA03127 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:37:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA03122 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:37:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from agora.rdrop.com (root@agora.rdrop.com [199.2.210.241]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id UAA24558 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:37:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eel.dataplex.net by agora.rdrop.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #17) id m0vDMmu-00095gC; Tue, 15 Oct 96 20:36 PDT Received: from [208.2.87.4] (cod [208.2.87.4]) by eel.dataplex.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA07680; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:31:17 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: rkw@eel.dataplex.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199610160224.VAA26891@brasil.moneng.mei.com> References: <199610160117.KAA27501@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Oct 16, 96 10:47:45 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:29:03 -0500 To: Joe Greco From: Richard Wackerbarth Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >If need be, make it clear to people that 2.1.5R may be a more suitable >choice for the sake of stability, and follow up with a 2.2.5R cleanup >release to handle the problems discovered in 2.2R. > >At some point, the line has to be drawn. I generally agree with your approach. However I would suggest that not 2.1.5, but 2.1.x is the appropriate one for production. IMHO, we need to continue to provide some support for it until what would by current practice be called 2.2.5 comes out. I also think that it would improve our image if we would call THAT release 2.2.0 and have a formal PRE_RELEASE that we call 2.2 Beta. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 20:39:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA03309 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:39:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA03303 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:39:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id NAA29329; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:09:41 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199610160339.NAA29329@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 To: jdw@wwwi.com (Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:09:40 +0930 (CST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610160238.TAA12637@wwwi.com> from "Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse" at Oct 15, 96 07:38:08 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse stands accused of saying: > > At 10:47 AM 10/16/96 +0930, Michael Smith wrote: > >Does -stable matter to you? Do you or your > >business want to see -stable move forwards? THEN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. > > It's really hard not to say something dreadfully sarcastic here. > Especially after I specifically addressed this point in my previous > messages. > > It's really nice that you have enough time to work on FreeBSD, but > not all of us are so lucky. The attitude that my (or anyone else's) > opinion is unimportant because I'm "only" a user is counterproductive. MHA for missing your addressing this point; however I feel that it still stands. The impetus for maintaining a "commercial grade" release has to come from the community, and the people most likely to be interested in this are those that need it. I didn't mean the above invective to be addressed specifically at you - that was poor communication on my part. As a user of a community-developed system, the obligation is more on your shoulders than on those of the developers; they are not held at ransom by the commercial model, so it is up to you and others in your position to motivate those who do have the time, in whatever fasion you can. And are you really as strapped for time as you think? Could you spend an hour a week reading commit messages looking for important changes, and trying them out? If ten or fifteen users with your sort of interest could spend that sort of time on the project, you could keep someone like Nate quite busy doing the actual committing. As a bonus, because you were in a position where you were providing the changes, you could prioritise the ones you provided to address your primary concerns. As a result, everyone would benefit. > I wasn't suggesting that 2.1.5 should diverge at all, only that it > may be time to start thinking about the possibly large portion of > the FreeBSD userbase that isn't seeing any of the benefit of all the > hard work you're doing. Understood - this point is clearly apprehended by most people. Unfortunately, so is the principal difficulty facing its resolution. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 22:42:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA10962 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:42:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA10955 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:42:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA09281; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:41:52 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:41:52 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199610160541.XAA09281@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: "Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse" Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-Reply-To: <199610160238.TAA12637@wwwi.com> References: <199610160238.TAA12637@wwwi.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > It's really hard not to say something dreadfully sarcastic here. > Especially after I specifically addressed this point in my previous > messages. > > It's really nice that you have enough time to work on FreeBSD, but > not all of us are so lucky. Not spending time with my wife == lucky? Not going fishing == lucky? Spending my money on crappy hardware == lucky? Not getting 8 hours/sleep night b/c I'm up late hacking FreeBSD == lucky? You and I have different opinions on what 'luck' is. :) > The attitude that my (or anyone else's) > opinion is unimportant because I'm "only" a user is counterproductive. You're opinion is important, it's just that the developers can either spend lots of time doing very little except maintain 2.1.5 and burn out (which already happened), OR they can get a life and start doing something fun and write new exciting code and leave the -stable codebase behind. > >Nothing will happen if nobody makes it happen. FreeBSD has to go > >somewhere, and 2.2 is where. > > I wasn't suggesting that 2.1.5 should diverge at all, only that it > may be time to start thinking about the possibly large portion of > the FreeBSD userbase that isn't seeing any of the benefit of all the > hard work you're doing. In time they will. However, IFF the developers don't have any fun doing this cause they spend all their time responding to the users wants and needs w/out any compensation (sanity-wise), then FreeBSD will die b/c of lack of interest on the developers part. *MOST* of the developers don't get paid to hack FreeBSD, and even those who get paid need to have something fun once-in-a-while. Even folks who man help-lines get promoted up after a while. *grin* Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Oct 15 23:14:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA12991 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:14:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.230.177]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA12985; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:14:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA01379; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:46:48 +0200 (MET DST) To: "Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse" cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:38:08 PDT." <199610160238.TAA12637@wwwi.com> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:46:47 +0200 Message-ID: <1377.845444807@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199610160238.TAA12637@wwwi.com>, "Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse" writes: >At 10:47 AM 10/16/96 +0930, Michael Smith wrote: >>Does -stable matter to you? Do you or your >>business want to see -stable move forwards? THEN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. > >It's really hard not to say something dreadfully sarcastic here. >Especially after I specifically addressed this point in my previous >messages. Well, I have mentioned this option earlier: Users of -stable, who want to see it evolve still and have bugs fixed pay a maintenance fee to a suitably good FreeBSD hacker who makes that his full-time business. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 00:07:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA15489 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 00:07:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from seagull.rtd.com (root@seagull.rtd.com [198.102.68.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA15482 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 00:07:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dgy@localhost) by seagull.rtd.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA21402 for freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 00:07:45 -0700 (MST) From: Don Yuniskis Message-Id: <199610160707.AAA21402@seagull.rtd.com> Subject: time(3) vs. gettimeofday(2) To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 00:07:45 -0700 (MST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greetings! As the subject line says, I'm stumped trying to fathom the differences between these two functions. Both *claim* to report GMT yet it appears the time() implementation actually reports local time. This is on a 2.1R box. Have I missed something in the documentation? I guess I'll start poking through the library sources while you folks enjoy your sleepy-time! :> Thanx! --don From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 00:11:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA15654 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 00:11:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.225.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA15649 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 00:11:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de [137.226.31.2]) by Campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (RBI-Z-5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA05757 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:11:36 +0100 Received: (from kuku@localhost) by gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (8.6.11/8.6.9) id IAA24213 for freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:17:04 +0100 Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:17:04 +0100 From: Christoph Kukulies Message-Id: <199610160717.IAA24213@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: NBPG (sys/param.h) Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk During compilation of gnu binutils-2.7 with configure --enable-targets=all I found that building choked on trad-core.c with NBPG (number of bytes per page or something close to that). Discussion in some gnu list revealed that it reportedly (someone at cygnus commented to me) had been in 2.0.5 . It seems to have gone thus breaking binutils compilation or requiring a FreeBSD patch to binutils. My question: Has it been removed for POSIXification reasons or what was the reason it had been removed? ---------------------------- revision 1.20 date: 1996/05/02 14:20:02; author: phk; state: Exp; lines: +20 -26 removed: CLBYTES PD_SHIFT PGSHIFT NBPG PGOFSET CLSIZELOG2 CLSIZE pdei() ptei() kvtopte() ptetov() ispt() ptetoav() &c &c new: NPDEPG Major macro cleanup. --Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 01:21:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA19998 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA19986 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:21:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id KAA01783; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:21:15 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA25035; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:21:14 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.6/8.6.9) id KAA17166; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:12:56 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610160812.KAA17166@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: time(3) vs. gettimeofday(2) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:12:56 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: dgy@rtd.com (Don Yuniskis) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199610160707.AAA21402@seagull.rtd.com> from Don Yuniskis at "Oct 16, 96 00:07:45 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Don Yuniskis wrote: > As the subject line says, I'm stumped trying to fathom the > differences between these two functions. > Have I missed something in the documentation? Yes, you've missed the tv_utime field. :) time() is the historic version with only one-second granularity. On BSD, it's implemented using gettimeofday(). -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 01:22:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA20091 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA19977 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:21:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id KAA01779; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:21:14 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA25031; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:21:13 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.6/8.6.9) id KAA17147; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:10:40 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610160810.KAA17147@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: NBPG (sys/param.h) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:10:40 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (Christoph Kukulies) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199610160717.IAA24213@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> from Christoph Kukulies at "Oct 16, 96 08:17:04 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Christoph Kukulies wrote: > I found that building choked on trad-core.c with NBPG (number of bytes > per page or something close to that). > > Discussion in some gnu list revealed that it reportedly (someone at cygnus > commented to me) had been in 2.0.5 . Use getpagesize() or PAGE_SIZE from . There were too many names for one and the same thing. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 01:33:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA21417 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:33:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.225.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA21362 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:33:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de [137.226.31.2]) by Campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (RBI-Z-5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA07510; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:33:17 +0100 Received: (from kuku@localhost) by gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (8.6.11/8.6.9) id JAA24489; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:38:44 +0100 From: Christoph Kukulies Message-Id: <199610160838.JAA24489@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> Subject: Re: NBPG (sys/param.h) In-Reply-To: <199610160810.KAA17147@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Oct 16, 96 10:10:40 am" To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:38:43 +0100 (MET) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de Reply-To: Christoph Kukulies X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > As Christoph Kukulies wrote: > > > I found that building choked on trad-core.c with NBPG (number of bytes > > per page or something close to that). > > > > Discussion in some gnu list revealed that it reportedly (someone at cygnus > > commented to me) had been in 2.0.5 . That was btw. (which is included into sys/param.h. > > Use getpagesize() or PAGE_SIZE from . There were too > many names for one and the same thing. Have to tell that to the binutils maintainers. > > -- > cheers, J"org > > joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE > Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) > --Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 01:36:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA21994 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:36:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ra.dkuug.dk (ra.dkuug.dk [193.88.44.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA21987; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:36:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ra.dkuug.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA20912; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:36:14 +0200 Message-Id: <199610160836.KAA20912@ra.dkuug.dk> Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) To: jdp@polstra.com (John Polstra) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:36:13 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: sos@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610160011.RAA08338@austin.polstra.com> from "John Polstra" at Oct 15, 96 05:11:26 pm From: sos@FreeBSD.org Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to John Polstra who wrote: > > > I propose that we use some unused space in the ELF header. The ELF > > header starts with a 16byte char field, where only the first 8 are > > used in all the ELF/i386 incarnations I've seen, so we can put a > > 8 char text here for the platform (that can easily be seen with > > the file(1) cmd too). Simple, easy, nice hack, works.... > > This is the kind of hack that I've argued against all along. But I > suppose it may be the only choice, if we want to be able to brand an > existing file. We can't use my Note section idea, because adding a > header to the program header part of the file shifts everything else > down in the file, changes the addresses of things in the program, and > so forth. It would be easy to add it in the link phase, but we are not > reasonably going to be able to control the link phase. > > It _is_ starting to sound like I agree with you, isn't it? :-) Yep, I told you so :) Well, I'll see if I can get a couble of hours and implement this in the kernel & the emulator. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team So much code to hack -- so little time. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 01:54:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA23403 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:54:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA23381 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id KAA03264 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:54:08 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA25480 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:54:08 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.6/8.6.9) id KAA17607 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:52:03 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610160852.KAA17607@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: NBPG (sys/param.h) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:52:03 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199610160838.JAA24489@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> from Christoph Kukulies at "Oct 16, 96 09:38:43 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Christoph Kukulies wrote: > That was btw. (which is included into sys/param.h. Yes, but is the ``more generic'' call for it. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 02:13:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA26656 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 02:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA26631; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 02:13:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id SAA02720; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:43:28 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199610160913.SAA02720@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) To: sos@FreeBSD.org Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:43:27 +0930 (CST) Cc: jdp@polstra.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610160836.KAA20912@ra.dkuug.dk> from "sos@FreeBSD.org" at Oct 16, 96 10:36:13 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk sos@FreeBSD.org stands accused of saying: > > Yep, I told you so :) > Well, I'll see if I can get a couble of hours and implement this in > the kernel & the emulator. Damn, beaten to it again 8( I'm still trying to find a copy of the rotten ELF format! > Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 02:22:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA28155 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 02:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA28142 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 02:22:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.7.6/8.6.5) with SMTP id CAA04915; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 02:22:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610160922.CAA04915@root.com> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.root.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Michael Smith cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com (Joe Greco), jdw@wwwi.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:02:42 +0930." <199610160232.MAA28294@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 02:22:01 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> I am curious to know if -core has an opinion on where the line should >> be (or maybe even has been) drawn. > >I would expect that they do (Jordan has hinted that discussions are going >on, which is a positive sign). We're still talking about it. Right now we still intend to release a 2.1.6 in December, but we are also considering releasing 2.2 at about the same time. With all the nifty stuff like SMP, we want to move along towards 3.0. No concrete decisions have yet been made, but we all would like to see the technology in -current enjoy wider use and this plan seems to have wide acceptence. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 02:46:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA01868 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 02:46:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from paloalto.access.hp.com (daemon@paloalto.access.hp.com [15.254.56.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA01855 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 02:46:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fakir.india.hp.com by paloalto.access.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA079169188; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 02:46:32 -0700 Received: from localhost by fakir.india.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA005181093; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:18:13 +0500 Message-Id: <199610161018.AA005181093@fakir.india.hp.com> To: Michael Smith Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:43:27 +0930." <199610160913.SAA02720@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:18:12 +0500 From: A JOSEPH KOSHY Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>> "Michael Smith" writes Hi Michael, > Damn, beaten to it again 8( I'm still trying to find a copy of the rotten > ELF format! I found a PDF file containing what looks like a subset of the ABI at the URL (http://developer.intel.com/ial/tis/index.htm). Look for "TIS Portable Formats Specification, V1.1". This document describes ELF and DWARF. There are other docs there too, but these were `self-extracting zip files' (yuck) so I left them alone. Koshy My personal opinions only. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 03:06:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA04690 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 03:06:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ra.dkuug.dk (ra.dkuug.dk [193.88.44.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA04674; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 03:06:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ra.dkuug.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA21453; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:04:18 +0200 Message-Id: <199610161004.MAA21453@ra.dkuug.dk> Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:04:18 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: sos@FreeBSD.org, jdp@polstra.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610160913.SAA02720@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Oct 16, 96 06:43:27 pm From: sos@FreeBSD.org Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Michael Smith who wrote: > > sos@FreeBSD.org stands accused of saying: > > > > Yep, I told you so :) > > Well, I'll see if I can get a couble of hours and implement this in > > the kernel & the emulator. > > Damn, beaten to it again 8( I'm still trying to find a copy of the rotten > ELF format! Too bad :), I have the framework done and will commit the changes tonight.. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team So much code to hack -- so little time. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 03:13:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA05533 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 03:13:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA05498; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 03:13:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id TAA03114; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:43:08 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199610161013.TAA03114@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) To: sos@FreeBSD.org Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:43:07 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, jdp@polstra.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610161004.MAA21453@ra.dkuug.dk> from "sos@FreeBSD.org" at Oct 16, 96 12:04:18 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk sos@FreeBSD.org stands accused of saying: > > > Damn, beaten to it again 8( I'm still trying to find a copy of the rotten > > ELF format! > > Too bad :), I have the framework done and will commit the changes tonight.. How does one say "bastard" in the local doggerel? 8) 8) I presume this uses a method that JDP can integrate with the linker, so that it's not necessary to 'brand' ELF executables after you've made them? Will your changes just reject an unidentifiable ELF binary out-of-hand, or could you add a sysctl variable to determine which format to presume? The latter method would be best, IMHO. > Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 03:37:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA08451 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 03:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news.IAEhv.nl (root@news.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA08405 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 03:36:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCAL (uucp@localhost) by news.IAEhv.nl (8.6.13/1.63) with IAEhv.nl; pid 2642 on Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:12:36 +0200; id MAA02642 efrom: marc@nietzsche.bowtie.nl; eto: UNKNOWN Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nietzsche.bowtie.nl (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA27197; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:12:25 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199610161012.MAA27197@nietzsche.bowtie.nl> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.7 5/3/96 To: A JOSEPH KOSHY cc: Michael Smith , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) In-reply-to: koshy's message of Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:18:12 +0500. <199610161018.AA005181093@fakir.india.hp.com> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:12:25 +0200 From: Marc van Kempen Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >>>> "Michael Smith" writes > > Hi Michael, > > > Damn, beaten to it again 8( I'm still trying to find a copy of the rotten > > ELF format! > > I found a PDF file containing what looks like a subset of the ABI at > the URL (http://developer.intel.com/ial/tis/index.htm). > > Look for "TIS Portable Formats Specification, V1.1". This document > describes ELF and DWARF. > > There are other docs there too, but these were `self-extracting zip files' > (yuck) so I left them alone. You can treat self-extracting zip files like any other zip file. Just run 'unzip -v xxxxx.exe' or 'unzip xxxxx.exe mydoc.doc' Marc. ---------------------------------------------------- Marc van Kempen BowTie Technology Email: marc@bowtie.nl WWW & Databases tel. +31 40 2 43 20 65 fax. +31 40 2 44 21 86 http://www.bowtie.nl ---------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 03:45:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA09267 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 03:45:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ra.dkuug.dk (ra.dkuug.dk [193.88.44.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA09253; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 03:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ra.dkuug.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA21684; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:45:15 +0200 Message-Id: <199610161045.MAA21684@ra.dkuug.dk> Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:45:15 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: sos@FreeBSD.org, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, jdp@polstra.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610161013.TAA03114@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Oct 16, 96 07:43:07 pm From: sos@FreeBSD.org Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Michael Smith who wrote: > > > > Damn, beaten to it again 8( I'm still trying to find a copy of the rotten > > > ELF format! > > > > Too bad :), I have the framework done and will commit the changes tonight.. > > How does one say "bastard" in the local doggerel? 8) 8) > > I presume this uses a method that JDP can integrate with the linker, so that > it's not necessary to 'brand' ELF executables after you've made them? That should be pretty simple, yes. > Will your changes just reject an unidentifiable ELF binary out-of-hand, > or could you add a sysctl variable to determine which format to > presume? The latter method would be best, IMHO. Hmm, following the ELF style I guess default should always be native, or one could argue for SVR4 compliant (which you dont have yet). I'm not fond of it being variable, that will generate too much support steam I'm afraid. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team So much code to hack -- so little time. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 04:14:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA11812 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 04:14:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA11806 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 04:14:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA04958; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 04:13:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610161113.EAA04958@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: dg@Root.COM cc: Michael Smith , jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com (Joe Greco), jdw@wwwi.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 02:22:01 PDT." <199610160922.CAA04915@root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 04:13:10 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I think that it will be wise to release 2.2 soon. It is getting uncomfortable for both users or ISPs and developers. Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 04:23:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA12289 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 04:23:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA12276; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 04:23:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id UAA03542; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:53:31 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199610161123.UAA03542@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) To: sos@FreeBSD.org Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:53:30 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, jdp@polstra.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610161045.MAA21684@ra.dkuug.dk> from "sos@FreeBSD.org" at Oct 16, 96 12:45:15 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk sos@FreeBSD.org stands accused of saying: > > > Will your changes just reject an unidentifiable ELF binary out-of-hand, > > or could you add a sysctl variable to determine which format to > > presume? The latter method would be best, IMHO. > > Hmm, following the ELF style I guess default should always be native, or > one could argue for SVR4 compliant (which you dont have yet). > I'm not fond of it being variable, that will generate too much support > steam I'm afraid. Native would be pointless, as native binaries will always be identifiable. The reason I ask is that for the situation where the Linux emulator had been loaded, but not the (hypothetical) SVR4 emulator, you could default to Linux and not have to brand your binaries, and vice versa. The only situation where branding would be required would be when both emulations were active, and IMHO _that_ is likely to generate less support steam just by its rarity. One could also bias the selection based on the path of the executable, as that is visible in exec_elf_imgact. Anything under /compat/linux is likely to be a linux binary, &c &c. That would further limit the requirement for branding to "both emulators loaded and binary outside of compatability tree". The last ditch "I have no idea, winging it" case could just default to the last interpreter in the list - that would let the user alter the default if there were more than one available by unloading and reloading the LKM. > Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 04:48:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA14470 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 04:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ra.dkuug.dk (ra.dkuug.dk [193.88.44.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA14458; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 04:48:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ra.dkuug.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA21933; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:45:44 +0200 Message-Id: <199610161145.NAA21933@ra.dkuug.dk> Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:45:44 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: sos@FreeBSD.org, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, jdp@polstra.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610161123.UAA03542@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Oct 16, 96 08:53:30 pm From: sos@FreeBSD.org Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Michael Smith who wrote: > > sos@FreeBSD.org stands accused of saying: > > > > > Will your changes just reject an unidentifiable ELF binary out-of-hand, > > > or could you add a sysctl variable to determine which format to > > > presume? The latter method would be best, IMHO. > > > > Hmm, following the ELF style I guess default should always be native, or > > one could argue for SVR4 compliant (which you dont have yet). > > I'm not fond of it being variable, that will generate too much support > > steam I'm afraid. > > Native would be pointless, as native binaries will always be > identifiable. The reason I ask is that for the situation where the NO, wrong, we can't even see if the bin is native !!!! > Linux emulator had been loaded, but not the (hypothetical) SVR4 > emulator, you could default to Linux and not have to brand your > binaries, and vice versa. Hypothetical ?? I have a SVR4 emu :), I just can't/wont't release the code... > The only situation where branding would be required would be when both > emulations were active, and IMHO _that_ is likely to generate less > support steam just by its rarity. > > One could also bias the selection based on the path of the executable, > as that is visible in exec_elf_imgact. Anything under /compat/linux > is likely to be a linux binary, &c &c. That would further limit the > requirement for branding to "both emulators loaded and binary outside > of compatability tree". I would wote for ALWAYS branding the ELF files, that way there is NO doubt what sex they are, thus giving least trouble. > The last ditch "I have no idea, winging it" case could just default to > the last interpreter in the list - that would let the user alter the > default if there were more than one available by unloading and > reloading the LKM. I'd rather have it give up and say unknown binary format or something like that, or try running it as a FreeBSD ELF bin. Now, for a practical question, what should I call the little util ?? markelf, brandelf or just plan elf (fixelf sounds a bit harsh :) ) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team So much code to hack -- so little time. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 04:55:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA15295 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 04:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA15288; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 04:55:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id VAA03723; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:25:26 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199610161155.VAA03723@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) To: sos@FreeBSD.org Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:25:26 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, jdp@polstra.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610161145.NAA21933@ra.dkuug.dk> from "sos@FreeBSD.org" at Oct 16, 96 01:45:44 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk sos@FreeBSD.org stands accused of saying: > > > > Native would be pointless, as native binaries will always be > > identifiable. The reason I ask is that for the situation where the > > NO, wrong, we can't even see if the bin is native !!!! Yes we can. You're coming up with a means of identifying FreeBSD binaries which JDP will be putting in the linker. There aren't many BSD ELF binaries out there, so _now_ is the time to mandate that for a FreeBSD ELF binary to be recognised as such, it must be branded. Alternatively, get JDP to use the PT_NOTE idea. Regardless, a FreeBSD ELF binary _must_ be uniquely identifiable; there is no room for debate on this 8) > Hypothetical ?? I have a SVR4 emu :), I just can't/wont't release the code... If you're going to dangle teasers, at least explain them 8) > I would wote for ALWAYS branding the ELF files, that way there is > NO doubt what sex they are, thus giving least trouble. Agreed. > > The last ditch "I have no idea, winging it" case could just default to > > the last interpreter in the list - that would let the user alter the > > default if there were more than one available by unloading and > > reloading the LKM. > > I'd rather have it give up and say unknown binary format or something like > that, or try running it as a FreeBSD ELF bin. Please, no. If it is unidentifiable, it is by definition not a FreeBSD ELF binary. I stand by "if it can't be identified, feed it to the most recently-loaded ELF interpreter and pray". In the short term, this will have the happy side effect that static Linux ELF binaries will suddenly magically work, which is a Good Thing. > Now, for a practical question, what should I call the little util ?? > > markelf, brandelf or just plan elf (fixelf sounds a bit harsh :) ) Heh. "smurf" > Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 05:20:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA17771 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 05:20:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ra.dkuug.dk (ra.dkuug.dk [193.88.44.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA17637; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 05:19:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ra.dkuug.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA22084; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:18:32 +0200 Message-Id: <199610161218.OAA22084@ra.dkuug.dk> Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:18:32 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: sos@FreeBSD.org, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, jdp@polstra.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610161155.VAA03723@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Oct 16, 96 09:25:26 pm From: sos@FreeBSD.org Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Michael Smith who wrote: > > sos@FreeBSD.org stands accused of saying: > > > > > > Native would be pointless, as native binaries will always be > > > identifiable. The reason I ask is that for the situation where the > > > > NO, wrong, we can't even see if the bin is native !!!! > > Yes we can. You're coming up with a means of identifying FreeBSD > binaries which JDP will be putting in the linker. There aren't many > BSD ELF binaries out there, so _now_ is the time to mandate that for a > FreeBSD ELF binary to be recognised as such, it must be branded. Ahh, yes, I misunderstood you, WHEN we have this in place it will work (of cause), but I have allready some FreeBSD ELF bins which dont know :) (Yeah I know I can recompile them). What I meant was that default is native, not something else... > > Hypothetical ?? I have a SVR4 emu :), I just can't/wont't release the code. > > If you're going to dangle teasers, at least explain them 8) OK, what I have is a SVR4 emulator heavily based on the iBCS2 code that I did long ago, actually I did it back then, and a SVR4 libc which contains the ELF interpreter. Now I cant release the lib because of copyrights, and Mr Wallace decided to scratch my iBCS2 emu for the NetBSD one, so that code wont fit in smoothly as it was supposed to, and I'm not going to spend endless hours fitting it into that mess, period. > > I'd rather have it give up and say unknown binary format or something like > > that, or try running it as a FreeBSD ELF bin. > > Please, no. If it is unidentifiable, it is by definition not a FreeBSD > ELF binary. I stand by "if it can't be identified, feed it to the > most recently-loaded ELF interpreter and pray". Gee, then we will have to keep track on what was loaded last :( > In the short term, this will have the happy side effect that static > Linux ELF binaries will suddenly magically work, which is a Good Thing. IF, the linux emu is loaded, and libs are installed, and you are lucky to have the right versions of them :( > > Now, for a practical question, what should I call the little util ?? > > > > markelf, brandelf or just plan elf (fixelf sounds a bit harsh :) ) > > Heh. "smurf" Didn't think of that one myself :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team So much code to hack -- so little time. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 05:51:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA21678 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 05:51:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA21639; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 05:51:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.7.6/8.6.9) id WAA19100; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:41:35 +1000 Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:41:35 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199610161241.WAA19100@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, sos@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, jdp@polstra.com Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I would wote for ALWAYS branding the ELF files, that way there is >NO doubt what sex they are, thus giving least trouble. How do you brand them on cdroms and on nfs [r/o] file systems, etc? Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 06:02:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA23036 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 06:02:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ra.dkuug.dk (ra.dkuug.dk [193.88.44.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA23016; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 06:02:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ra.dkuug.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA22225; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:00:47 +0200 Message-Id: <199610161300.PAA22225@ra.dkuug.dk> Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:00:47 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, sos@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org, jdp@polstra.com In-Reply-To: <199610161241.WAA19100@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at Oct 16, 96 10:41:35 pm From: sos@FreeBSD.org Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Bruce Evans who wrote: > > >I would wote for ALWAYS branding the ELF files, that way there is > >NO doubt what sex they are, thus giving least trouble. > > How do you brand them on cdroms and on nfs [r/o] file systems, etc? I don't 'cause I can't. I have made provision for defaulting one type, and if not branded, that will be used. Remember this is only (well almost) a problem with statically linked ELF files, which all things equal should be pretty rare. Do you have a better idea, short of patternmatching the first page of the binary in question ?? I'm all ears :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team So much code to hack -- so little time. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 06:08:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA24106 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 06:08:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from seagull.rtd.com (root@seagull.rtd.com [198.102.68.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA24098 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 06:08:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dgy@localhost) by seagull.rtd.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA20097 for freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 06:08:13 -0700 (MST) From: Don Yuniskis Message-Id: <199610161308.GAA20097@seagull.rtd.com> Subject: finding missing distfiles To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 06:08:13 -0700 (MST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greetings! Does someone knowledgeable in the bsd.port.mk black magic have a nice little script that digs through the ports Makefiles and identifies any/all files that are NOT present under distfiles? I think a list of such files could be beneficial on the CD-ROM (at least *I* would be thankful!) as it tells you what files you should grab "quickly" after a release (since I find many ports go "stale" in a short time frame and the distfiles are no longer available at the sites listed). Just MHO... Thx! --don From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 06:50:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA03414 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 06:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA03407 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 06:50:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id IAA27595; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:48:44 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610161348.IAA27595@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:48:44 -0500 (CDT) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, jdw@wwwi.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610160922.CAA04915@root.com> from "David Greenman" at Oct 16, 96 02:22:01 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >> I am curious to know if -core has an opinion on where the line should > >> be (or maybe even has been) drawn. > > > >I would expect that they do (Jordan has hinted that discussions are going > >on, which is a positive sign). > > We're still talking about it. Right now we still intend to release a 2.1.6 > in December, but we are also considering releasing 2.2 at about the same time. > With all the nifty stuff like SMP, we want to move along towards 3.0. No > concrete decisions have yet been made, but we all would like to see the > technology in -current enjoy wider use and this plan seems to have wide > acceptence. Hi David, This would be, IMHO, an excellent path to follow. 2.1.5 (to become 2.1.6) is very obviously a highly polished product, and for many of us would continue to be the "OS of choice" for quite some time, for those demanding, high availability applications.. On the other hand, some of us are anxious enough to actually TRY 2.2R that we will trade stability for new features. I myself have some boxes that sit in "critical but redundant" positions and would certainly be willing to put 2.2R to the test - IF something were available. I mean, I did run a production news server on 2.0R, and I am quite familiar with the problems of running a "mostly stable" release. I did not mind the weekly freakouts or lockups too much, as I knew my problem reports would help make 2.0.5R a more reliable release. But I am not willing to try to track -current as it is just really hard to do (I'm one guy, I don't have the hours in the day as it is)... and the SNAP releases seem to be both bad and good... I have been tempted to look at Karl's MCS releases. If I could get a -current that was not so subject to such reliability variances, I would certainly run it. That's why the 2.2R thing seems like such a good idea. If a new "-stable" is created at 2.2R, and "-current" goes its merry way on to 3.0R, that gives people like me a good solid point at which to start, and a path to follow for the next year or two while 2.2.XR becomes as stable as 2.1.5R. It sounds like something along these lines is just exactly what is needed. Thanks for the info, ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 06:59:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA03821 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 06:59:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA03814 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 06:59:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id IAA27615; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:58:41 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610161358.IAA27615@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 To: rkw@dataplex.net (Richard Wackerbarth) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:58:41 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Richard Wackerbarth" at Oct 15, 96 10:29:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >If need be, make it clear to people that 2.1.5R may be a more suitable > >choice for the sake of stability, and follow up with a 2.2.5R cleanup > >release to handle the problems discovered in 2.2R. > > > >At some point, the line has to be drawn. > > I generally agree with your approach. However I would suggest that not > 2.1.5, but 2.1.x is the appropriate one for production. If there are any further improvements to 2.1.X, I certainly do not disagree. I was working under the assumption that -stable was basically dead. However, if this is not the case, I am not against this at all! > IMHO, we need to > continue to provide some support for it until what would by current > practice be called 2.2.5 comes out. Yes. > I also think that it would improve our image if we would call THAT release > 2.2.0 and have a formal PRE_RELEASE that we call 2.2 Beta. What is wrong with the ALPHA/BETA/RELEASE cycle (aside from the fact that it has been pretty much abused/ignored for the last few releases)? Some of us are quite willing to test 2.2ALPHA if one is made available. However, I personally feel that in order to produce a more robust 2.2.5R, several months of beating on 2.2R will be necessary, and this is NOT going to be possible if the core team has a goal of December in mind for 2.2R. I would prefer to have a 2.2ALPHA in my hands TODAY, a 2.2BETA a month from now, followed by a 2.2R in December. This would shake out obvious bugs in 2.2R, but would not be a sufficient period of time for robustness testing and bug elimination. But... when it comes right down to it, I don't care too much about how it's numbered, I just want to see something happen. :-) ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 07:15:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA04570 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:15:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gateway.skipstone.com (root@GATEWAY.SKIPSTONE.COM [198.214.10.129]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA04563 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:15:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bugs.skipstone.com (bugs.skipstone.com [204.69.236.2]) by gateway.skipstone.com (8.7.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA13463; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:15:09 -0500 Received: from [204.69.236.50] (hotapplepie.skipstone.com [204.69.236.50]) by bugs.skipstone.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA15412; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:15:07 -0500 X-Sender: rkw@mail.dataplex.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:15:08 -0600 To: Joe Greco From: rkw@dataplex.net (Richard Wackerbarth) Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> I generally agree with your approach. However I would suggest that not >> 2.1.5, but 2.1.x is the appropriate one for production. My point here is that, although few changes have been made, we should encourage people to upgrade from 2.1.5R to the present "-stable". >> I also think that it would improve our image if we would call THAT release >> 2.2.0 and have a formal PRE_RELEASE that we call 2.2 Beta. > >What is wrong with the ALPHA/BETA/RELEASE cycle (aside from the fact that >it has been pretty much abused/ignored for the last few releases)? "Pretty much"? I feel that it has been totally abused. >Some of us are quite willing to test 2.2ALPHA if one is made available. In a sense, the "SNAPS" are "Alpha". The primary thing missing is the initial effort to define the release's feature target. My point was that we SHOULD a reasonable amount of "shaking out" BEFORE we drop the "RELEASE" label on something. > >However, I personally feel that in order to produce a more robust 2.2.5R, >several months of beating on 2.2R will be necessary, and this is NOT going >to be possible if the core team has a goal of December in mind for 2.2R. > >I would prefer to have a 2.2ALPHA in my hands TODAY, a 2.2BETA a month >from now, followed by a 2.2R in December. This would shake out obvious >bugs in 2.2R, but would not be a sufficient period of time for robustness >testing and bug elimination. I concur. I also feel that we should continue to "support" (as in "have readily available") a production grade version that has been shaken pretty well. If we have gone through the ALPHA/BETA/RELEASE cycle, then the "its in the new (but unproven) release" is a reasonable answer to feature problems. >But... when it comes right down to it, I don't care too much about how >it's numbered, I just want to see something happen. :-) I do think that numbering has some impact on the perception that the public has of the product. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 07:15:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA04610 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:15:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.hsc.wvu.edu (www.hsc.wvu.edu [157.182.105.122]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA04597 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:15:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jsigmon@localhost) by www.hsc.wvu.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA16007; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:16:21 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:16:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeremy Sigmon To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I generally agree with your approach. However I would suggest that not > 2.1.5, but 2.1.x is the appropriate one for production. IMHO, we need to > continue to provide some support for it until what would by current > practice be called 2.2.5 comes out. > > I also think that it would improve our image if we would call THAT release > 2.2.0 and have a formal PRE_RELEASE that we call 2.2 Beta. > Is there any sort of criteria set for what has to be done to -current before it can be released? All I have seen is ambiguous dates like Feb'97 and such or my personal favorite, "When its Done". I am a firm believer in the "When its Done" software releasing scheme, but is there a set criteria to mark "When its Done"? Thanks Jeremy From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 08:31:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA08905 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:31:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.50.29]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA08894 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:31:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA19843; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:16:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610161516.IAA19843@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: A JOSEPH KOSHY Cc: Michael Smith , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:16:07 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:18:12 +0500 A JOSEPH KOSHY wrote: > > Damn, beaten to it again 8( I'm still trying to find a copy of the rotten > > ELF format! > > I found a PDF file containing what looks like a subset of the ABI at > the URL (http://developer.intel.com/ial/tis/index.htm). You can also get it in "System V Application Binary Interface, Third Edition", published by the UNIX Press. I bought my copy for $43.00 at Computer Literacy. It contains much more info that just ELF, too. Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: 408.866.1912 NAS: M/S 258-6 Work: 415.604.0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: 415.428.6939 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 08:38:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA09432 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:38:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mandor.dev.com (mandor.dev.com [198.145.93.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA09416 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mandor.dev.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mandor.dev.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA18695 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:32:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610161532.IAA18695@mandor.dev.com> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:32:19 PDT From: Brian Smith Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk WARNING! This is a flame against a few people, not all of the audience. You know who you are. If not, just ask your FreeBSD neighbors. Some recent (and purposely unattributed) comments imply that the FreeBSD developers actually owe the users something. Why? Have those complaining users contributed money or time? How's that support fund coming, Jordan? :-( I always hear several people say that they are going to contribute money toward the fund after something like this, and then the facts come in: nobody really contributed. I just don't understand how many people seem to think that they have the leverage and/or the *right* to tell the FreeBSD developers what to do. In their free time, they are developing something that you and I can use, and do they receive gratitude with no strings attached? No. They seem to receive a few thanks with a large number of demands for improvements. As for me, sure, I'd like to see 2.2 released. I'd also like to see FreeBSD support for Window95 binaries, a multithreaded kernel, smoother Plug'n'Play support, a GUI that rivals Winslow/Macinsloth, and a dev environment like Visual C++. BUT!! I'm sure as h*ll thankful for what I've got. More importantly, I know that the only solution is for people like me to actually free up some time to CONTRIBUTE. If we insist on telling the core team what to do, they may treat it like a real job and insist that users pay for it. Worse, they may give up in disgust, as the spoiled children forget that FreeBSD is a contributor effort. Complaints don't solve problems. Working code does! ObPlatitude: If you aren't part of the solution... figure it out. A little peeved, Brian Smith P.S. This is no slight against the few people who actually have contributed to the FreeBSD fund. Jordan knows who you are. As for other contributions, send-pr and CVS knows who you are too. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 08:41:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA09758 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:41:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA09744 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:41:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id KAA27811; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:40:09 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610161540.KAA27811@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 To: rkw@dataplex.net (Richard Wackerbarth) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:40:08 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Richard Wackerbarth" at Oct 16, 96 09:15:08 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >> I generally agree with your approach. However I would suggest that not > >> 2.1.5, but 2.1.x is the appropriate one for production. > > My point here is that, although few changes have been made, we should > encourage people to upgrade from 2.1.5R to the present "-stable". I can see arguments both ways. I do not disagree with the idea, but for people to upgrade from 2.1.5R to 2.1.6R with a very small delta (particularly if it consists of changes that do not affect them) may not make sense. I do not particularly care, I simply want to see some variant of this "well tested" branch to stay around until there is a 2.2 based "well tested" branch. > >What is wrong with the ALPHA/BETA/RELEASE cycle (aside from the fact that > >it has been pretty much abused/ignored for the last few releases)? > > "Pretty much"? I feel that it has been totally abused. I was being kind. > >Some of us are quite willing to test 2.2ALPHA if one is made available. > > In a sense, the "SNAPS" are "Alpha". The primary thing missing is the > initial effort to define the release's feature target. I agree that the SNAP's have been used as "Alpha" - and "Beta" - and "Gamma" too. (2.1.0-951026-SNAP, should have been 2.1.0GAMMA) If you are saying that this is acceptable as an alternative to a formal release procedure (and I do not think that you are trying to say this), I would very much disagree. > My point was that we SHOULD a reasonable amount of "shaking out" BEFORE we > drop the "RELEASE" label on something. Oh, ABSOLUTELY! But I do not think it is unreasonable to let something out the door that may be somewhat less stable than a previous release, just like 2.0R was not as stable as 1.1.5.1R. I ABSOLUTELY think it needs to go through a full cycle release. > >However, I personally feel that in order to produce a more robust 2.2.5R, > >several months of beating on 2.2R will be necessary, and this is NOT going > >to be possible if the core team has a goal of December in mind for 2.2R. > > > >I would prefer to have a 2.2ALPHA in my hands TODAY, a 2.2BETA a month > >from now, followed by a 2.2R in December. This would shake out obvious > >bugs in 2.2R, but would not be a sufficient period of time for robustness > >testing and bug elimination. > > I concur. I also feel that we should continue to "support" (as in "have > readily available") a production grade version that has been shaken pretty > well. This is a commendable goal, but it remains to be seen whether or not it is possible to do so in a practical manner. With the energies of the core team focused on -current, and distracted by 2.2-stable, I suspect that the issue of "support" beyond just having the 2.1.6R version available will be sticky. Having the version available for download is, of course, trivial. > If we have gone through the ALPHA/BETA/RELEASE cycle, then the "its in the > new (but unproven) release" is a reasonable answer to feature problems. I concur. > >But... when it comes right down to it, I don't care too much about how > >it's numbered, I just want to see something happen. :-) > > I do think that numbering has some impact on the perception that the public > has of the product. Sure it does, but I do not want to see FreeBSD inventing numbering schemes simply to impress the public. ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 08:50:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA10391 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:50:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA10382 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:50:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA11320; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:50:22 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:50:22 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199610161550.JAA11320@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: rkw@dataplex.net (Richard Wackerbarth) Cc: Joe Greco , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-Reply-To: References: Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >I would prefer to have a 2.2ALPHA in my hands TODAY, a 2.2BETA a month > >from now, followed by a 2.2R in December. This would shake out obvious > >bugs in 2.2R, but would not be a sufficient period of time for robustness > >testing and bug elimination. > > I concur. I also feel that we should continue to "support" (as in "have > readily available") a production grade version that has been shaken pretty > well. I haven't seen any support from you for 2.1.5? Where are the PR's? Where are the emails with fixes? Are you volunteering me to do the support? It's mighty fine of you to tell me what I should/shouldn't do with my time, but methinks you're wasting both my time and yours with statements like the above. 'Find solutions not problems. We've got plenty of the latter to go around, thank you very much!' Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 09:38:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA13483 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:38:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fire1.sprintlink.net (fire1.sprintlink.net [206.229.244.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA13468 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.int.sprintlink.net ([206.229.244.25]) by fire1.sprintlink.net via smtpd (for freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.18]) with SMTP; 16 Oct 1996 16:40:16 UT Received: (from dvv@localhost) by mercury.int.sprintlink.net (8.7.3/8.6.12) id MAA23126; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:31:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610161631.MAA23126@mercury.int.sprintlink.net> Subject: Re: Excellent host SYN-attack fix for BSD hosts (fwd) To: shaver@neon.ingenia.ca (Mike Shaver) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:31:14 -0400 (EDT) Cc: michael@memra.com, firewalls@GreatCircle.COM, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, server-linux@netspace.org In-Reply-To: <199610141726.NAA20351@neon.ingenia.com> from "Mike Shaver" at Oct 14, 96 01:26:23 pm From: dvv@sprint.net (Dima Volodin) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mike Shaver writes: > > Thus spake Michael Dillon: > > window size > > and any initial data is discarded; > > This, of course, breaks the TCP specification, in case anyone still > cares about that. (Few do, I fear.) It would only cause a timeout and retransmission of the lost segmetn, no? > (I seem to recall someone saying that it made it impossible to talk to > any machine that did T/TCP, as well.) > > Mike Dima From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 09:46:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA14142 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:46:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA14128; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:46:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA27839; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:46:30 -0700 (PDT) To: sos@FreeBSD.org cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith), jdp@polstra.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:45:44 +0200." <199610161145.NAA21933@ra.dkuug.dk> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:46:30 -0700 Message-ID: <27836.845484390@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I would wote for ALWAYS branding the ELF files, that way there is > NO doubt what sex they are, thus giving least trouble. > > markelf, brandelf or just plan elf (fixelf sounds a bit harsh :) ) "elfspay" From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 09:47:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA14280 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:47:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA14272 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:47:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id LAA27921; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:46:21 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610161646.LAA27921@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:46:20 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610161550.JAA11320@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Oct 16, 96 09:50:22 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > >I would prefer to have a 2.2ALPHA in my hands TODAY, a 2.2BETA a month > > >from now, followed by a 2.2R in December. This would shake out obvious > > >bugs in 2.2R, but would not be a sufficient period of time for robustness > > >testing and bug elimination. > > > > I concur. I also feel that we should continue to "support" (as in "have > > readily available") a production grade version that has been shaken pretty > > well. > > I haven't seen any support from you for 2.1.5? Where are the PR's? > Where are the emails with fixes? Are you volunteering me to do the > support? It's mighty fine of you to tell me what I should/shouldn't do > with my time, but methinks you're wasting both my time and yours with > statements like the above. > > 'Find solutions not problems. We've got plenty of the latter to go > around, thank you very much!' Well, I have not noticed any problems with 2.1.5R! The only "valuable" addition that I can think of would be a TCP SYN attack guard... other than that I can think of no outstanding complaints I have against it! I do suggest that 2.1.5R should continue as the "reliability" branch for the time being, for people who need rock solid systems, but I am not telling you what you must do, or even that you must support it if you do do it. I would rather see 2.2R get pushed out the door so that there can be a less-divergent-from-current stable tree under development. I really think that that is fairly important. (Please note: all of this has been expressed as opinion. That _should_ be immediately obvious.) ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 09:48:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA14394 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:48:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (austin.polstra.com [206.213.73.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA14387; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:48:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (jdp@localhost) by austin.polstra.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA13984; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:48:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610161648.JAA13984@austin.polstra.com> To: sos@FreeBSD.org cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith), hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:45:15 +0200." <199610161045.MAA21684@ra.dkuug.dk> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:48:54 -0700 From: John Polstra Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I presume this uses a method that JDP can integrate with the linker, so that > > it's not necessary to 'brand' ELF executables after you've made them? > > That should be pretty simple, yes. Let me know exactly how to brand a file, when you get it worked out. I'll try (harder) to get it into the elfkit linker ASAP. John From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 09:51:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA14731 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:51:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (austin.polstra.com [206.213.73.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA14719; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:51:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (jdp@localhost) by austin.polstra.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA14012; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:51:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610161651.JAA14012@austin.polstra.com> To: sos@FreeBSD.org cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith), hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:45:44 +0200." <199610161145.NAA21933@ra.dkuug.dk> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:51:43 -0700 From: John Polstra Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Now, for a practical question, what should I call the little util ?? > > markelf, brandelf or just plan elf (fixelf sounds a bit harsh :) ) tattoo? From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 09:55:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA15101 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:55:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ai2a.net ([206.152.102.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA15096 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ai2a.net.ai2a.net ([206.152.102.150]) by ai2a.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA05683 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:57:07 -0500 Message-Id: <199610161657.LAA05683@ai2a.net> From: "David Clark" To: Subject: unsubscribe Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:02:23 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk unsubscribe From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 10:07:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA16311 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:07:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA16303 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:07:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA27937; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:06:42 -0700 (PDT) To: rkw@dataplex.net (Richard Wackerbarth) cc: Joe Greco , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:15:08 MDT." Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:06:42 -0700 Message-ID: <27935.845485602@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >What is wrong with the ALPHA/BETA/RELEASE cycle (aside from the fact that > >it has been pretty much abused/ignored for the last few releases)? > > "Pretty much"? I feel that it has been totally abused. That's simply because you haven't kept up to date with events. The whole ALPHA/BETA naming cycle was *discontinued* just as soon as I started making 2.2-current (and even one or two 2.1-stable) snapshots regularly. They filled the same niche, and the whole ALPHA/BETA system was falling apart anyway due to a lack of concerted testing. I don't mean to denigrate the work of the ALPHA and BETA testers at all here but, in the early days, I'd say we had *real* ALPHA and BETA cycles because we had a tight group of testing folks who essentially performed the functions of a good QA department in a software development company - they delivered *timely* feedback in a predictable manner and I was able to count on a 15-20 day testing cycle as having genuine meaning. In time, however, these folks got tired or moved into real jobs, or graduate school programs, or whatever, and the system started to collapse. Several testers remained dedicated throughout (and you know who you all are) and their efforts were of heroic proportions, but they still couldn't do all the work of their departed brethren. After an especially weak BETA, I decided that what was needed was more of a "regular train" system, which made frequent stops and let anyone hop on or off along the way, as time and inclination permitted. This became the SNAPs and the rest is history - it's worked out, on the whole, a lot better than the ALPHA/BETA cycles as less on-demand time is required for testing. If you've got a final bang in the middle of one SNAP, you wait for the next one. I will not be bringing back the ALPHA/BETA/RELEASE cycle. It simply stopped working for me, and an non-working mechanism helps me not at all when the crunch is on. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 10:30:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA18633 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:30:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dirac.phys.washington.edu (dirac.phys.washington.edu [128.95.93.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA18628 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:30:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by dirac.phys.washington.edu (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1042/UW-NDC Revision: 2.25 ) id KAA19067; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:30:44 -0700 From: "William R. Somsky" Message-Id: <199610161730.KAA19067@dirac.phys.washington.edu> Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) To: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:30:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <199610161148.EAA14488@freefall.freebsd.org> from "owner-hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org" at Oct 16, 96 04:48:39 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Now, for a practical question, what should I call the little util ?? > > markelf, brandelf or just plan elf (fixelf sounds a bit harsh :) ) How about "elfrune"? The little added mark is the rune... (And some might complain that it "ruins" strict ELF conformance. :-) Or since the added mark is sort of a "cookie", how about "keebler"? :-) ________________________________________________________________________ William R. Somsky somsky@phys.washington.edu Department of Physics, Box 351560 B432 Physics-Astro Bldg Univ. of Washington, Seattle WA 98195-1560 206/616-2954 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 10:51:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA20239 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:51:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gateway.skipstone.com (root@GATEWAY.SKIPSTONE.COM [198.214.10.129]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA20233 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:51:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bugs.skipstone.com (bugs.skipstone.com [204.69.236.2]) by gateway.skipstone.com (8.7.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA16678; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:51:13 -0500 Received: from [204.69.236.50] (hotapplepie.skipstone.com [204.69.236.50]) by bugs.skipstone.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA16741; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:51:12 -0500 X-Sender: rkw@mail.dataplex.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:51:11 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: rkw@dataplex.net (Richard Wackerbarth) Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> >What is wrong with the ALPHA/BETA/RELEASE cycle (aside from the fact that >> >it has been pretty much abused/ignored for the last few releases)? >> >> "Pretty much"? I feel that it has been totally abused. > >That's simply because you haven't kept up to date with events. The >whole ALPHA/BETA naming cycle was *discontinued* just as soon as I >started making 2.2-current (and even one or two 2.1-stable) snapshots >regularly. They filled the same niche, and the whole ALPHA/BETA >system was falling apart anyway due to a lack of concerted testing. >I will not be bringing back the ALPHA/BETA/RELEASE cycle. It simply >stopped working for me, and an non-working mechanism helps me not at >all when the crunch is on. I previously noted that the SNAPs do serve the "alpha" function. However what I feel to have been missing was that final freeze and test before releasing cycle. It seems to me that there was too much added at the last minute. Personally, I would rather see the releases spun off more frequently and a "Sorry, you missed the train. There will be another one in just a few minutes(months)" attitude. I get the feeling that I should treat the x.x.0 release as the "beta" and the x.x.5 that follows as the "release". You will recall that I was advocating the spinoff of 2.2 from -current some time ago. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 11:10:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA21937 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:10:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.230.177]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA21930; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:10:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA00230; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:09:41 +0200 (MET DST) To: Brian Smith cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:32:19 PDT." <199610161532.IAA18695@mandor.dev.com> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:09:40 +0200 Message-ID: <228.845489380@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199610161532.IAA18695@mandor.dev.com>, Brian Smith writes: Brian, I have nominated you for the title of "FreeBSD hacker weilding common sense way above the average". :-) >P.S. This is no slight against the few people who actually have >contributed to the FreeBSD fund. Jordan knows who you are. As for >other contributions, send-pr and CVS knows who you are too. I have more than once thought about us making a "contributors" mailing list so that I could unsubscribe from hackers. If people who use FreeBSD in a commercial setting paid 2% of what it would have cost them to do the same with shrink-wrapped software, and private users paid 1% to the FreeBSD Projects funds, then I would be much more inclined to listen to them and help them. As it is now, I do FreeBSD for fun, and I work on what's fun for >me< and what I think the historic necesity dictates that FreeBSD must have. I do not jump out of my pants to help people with their more or less bizarre wishes and problems, unless it matches the above "fun" clause as well. I've raised hell before on the mailing lists, and I don't mind doing it again, the word from this slightly disgruntled -core member is: "CONTRIBUTE, PAY or SHUT UP! (in order of my preference)" My hourly rate is USD120/h, various discounts available. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 11:14:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA22382 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:14:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SandBox.CyberCity.dk (disn35.cybercity.dk [194.16.57.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA22373; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by SandBox.CyberCity.dk (8.7.6/8.7.3) id UAA00583; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:14:57 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199610161814.UAA00583@SandBox.CyberCity.dk> Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) To: jdp@polstra.com (John Polstra) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:14:56 +0200 (MET DST) From: "Soren Schmidt" Cc: sos@FreeBSD.org, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610161648.JAA13984@austin.polstra.com> from "John Polstra" at Oct 16, 96 09:48:54 am From: sos@FreeBSD.org Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to John Polstra who wrote: > > > > > I presume this uses a method that JDP can integrate with the linker, so that > > > it's not necessary to 'brand' ELF executables after you've made them? > > > > That should be pretty simple, yes. > > Let me know exactly how to brand a file, when you get it worked out. > I'll try (harder) to get it into the elfkit linker ASAP. Look in usr.bin/brandelf :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- SЬren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team Even more code to hack -- will it ever end .. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 11:15:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA22549 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:15:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA22540 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:15:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA03254; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:14:01 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610161814.LAA03254@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 To: jdw@wwwi.com (Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:14:01 -0700 (MST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610160307.UAA23003@wwwi.com> from "Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse" at Oct 15, 96 08:07:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > That divergance is exactly the problem I am trying to point out. > Already three "significant contributors" people have said that > -stable isn't worth the trouble. However, stable is the only choice > for people who want a stable OS who don't have a lot of time to > invest in sanitizing their own private -current. > > >So... I would rather see a 2.2R that was, perhaps, a bit rough at the > >edges (like 2.0R) sooner rather than later. > > I agree. If -stable has abandoned, it's time to look toward something > new. Based on the assertions that several people have made that > "current is usually fairly stable," it seems like the benefits of > this might far outweigh the effort, or at least the possibility is > real enough to discuss. I think you are missing the answer: Stable gets to be called stable after bunches of people have tested a release candidate. Bunches of people are not willing to test an interim release when something newer is available. Stable has not been abandoned. When current is code cut as a release candidate and is deemed to be sufficient stable to be called stable, then there will be a new stable. So it comes down to: Do you want it to be stable? Or do you want people to make bug fixes to it, potentially rendering it unstable? You can't have both. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 11:22:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA23402 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:22:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA23394 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:22:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA03305; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:20:12 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610161820.LAA03305@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:20:12 -0700 (MST) Cc: jdw@wwwi.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610160339.NAA29329@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Oct 16, 96 01:09:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > And are you really as strapped for time as you think? Could you spend > an hour a week reading commit messages looking for important changes, > and trying them out? If ten or fifteen users with your sort of > interest could spend that sort of time on the project, you could keep > someone like Nate quite busy doing the actual committing. As a bonus, > because you were in a position where you were providing the changes, > you could prioritise the ones you provided to address your primary > concerns. As a result, everyone would benefit. I was under the impression that this is what is already done for current, and is the distinguishing attribute for deciding if someone gets commit priveledges or not. It seems to me that applying this standard (with no additional improvement to the process by which it is applied) will only result in a stable which mimics the stability of -current ...ie: it will not be worthy of the name. Stable is stable because, as a release candidate, it was pounded upon by many people. I, for one, am not willing to downgrade my machine to enable me to pound on additional candidates for stable in order to make this proposed process work. I suspect that the majority of people on these lists are of the same opinion. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 11:26:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA23687 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:26:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA23679 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:25:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id NAA28163; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:23:31 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610161823.NAA28163@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:23:30 -0500 (CDT) Cc: rkw@dataplex.net, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <27935.845485602@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Oct 16, 96 10:06:42 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > That's simply because you haven't kept up to date with events. The > whole ALPHA/BETA naming cycle was *discontinued* just as soon as I > started making 2.2-current (and even one or two 2.1-stable) snapshots > regularly. They filled the same niche, and the whole ALPHA/BETA > system was falling apart anyway due to a lack of concerted testing. Hi Jordan, You can add me to the list of people who haven't kept up to date with events (or, perhaps, forgot)... because this takes me by suprise too. > [...] > After an especially weak BETA, I decided that what was needed was more > of a "regular train" system, which made frequent stops and let anyone > hop on or off along the way, as time and inclination permitted. This > became the SNAPs and the rest is history - it's worked out, on the > whole, a lot better than the ALPHA/BETA cycles as less on-demand time > is required for testing. If you've got a final bang in the middle of > one SNAP, you wait for the next one. A view from the other side: As one of the original folks who did put a lot of effort into ALPHA/BETA/GAMMA testing, I have a harder time with this, and I will try to explain to you why. The SNAP's are a great mechanism to facilitate interrelease "testing" and "early access to new bits". I absolutely and strongly feel that this is true, and I am sure that you do too. However, my past experience with the SNAP releases has generally been bad enough that I am not willing to run them on production equipment, even when backed up with a redundant system. They may be fine for desktop use, or casual use, but my confidence level is very low. With a formalized RELEASE procedure, essentially what you are doing is calling a feature freeze, cutting a "SNAP" (ALPHA), followed by one or two more cleanup "SNAP"'s (BETA/GAMMA), followed by RELEASE. This happens with predefined minimal time intervals between each stage, and with certain guidelines for quality control (i.e. you do not proceed to the next stage until stupid, easy to correct problems present in the current stage have been fixed). Soooooooooooooo, you say, and so do I. The current procedure may give you much of that. So what's in a name? Well, and this is sorta a critical concept, the fact that a given "SNAP" is part of a formal release cycle makes it a very important SNAP. What happens when your ALPHA/BETA testers do not recognize it as such? I will gladly go to great inconvenience to test 2.2ALPHA, but if I do not recognize 2.2.0-961020-SNAP as an "alpha" snap destined to become a release, I may not be able to help you test it. I try to glance over all the SNAP announcements, but I can't swear I'll see them. I am much more likely to notice a 2.2ALPHA announcement, or references to 2.2ALPHA on the mailing lists. Being a part of a formal release procedure means that you are in FEATURE FREEZE, where you do not make questionable changes or add extra features... and what you DO do is done with a LOT of careful consideration and peer review and testing. Being a part of a formal release procedure means that you release your A/B/G releases, with a predefined time interval between each one, to allow people to install and test the system. If you look at it from a larger point of view, it is not so much about naming as it is about discipline. The naming follows the discipline and can reinforce the formal release procedure. But I maintain that FreeBSD's release discipline - while never very good (often rushed due to various pressures) - has sunk to new lows in the last year or so. Right now, I have no idea when a particular SNAP is worthy of my going to lots of trouble to test it. I have no idea when the next RELEASE may be coming out, and there is very little incentive to try a SNAP on one of my big machines. With a formal release procedure, I know when the ALPHA release comes out that the next RELEASE is anticipated in about X weeks, give or take a little bit, and I know that we are in feature freeze and it would be extremely helpful for me to try out this version. I would rather see RELEASE cycles more often (maybe every three months instead of every six), and I would prefer to see them be rigorous and formal. I would even settle for just the added rigor and formality. This need not be an entirely different way of doing things... it could simply be extending your SNAP paradigm appropriately to encompass these elements of good software release procedure. I think it would be a great benefit. My opinion, ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 11:26:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA23732 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:26:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SandBox.CyberCity.dk (disn45.cybercity.dk [194.16.57.45]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA23724 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:26:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by SandBox.CyberCity.dk (8.7.6/8.7.3) id UAA00635; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:25:55 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199610161825.UAA00635@SandBox.CyberCity.dk> Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 To: phk@critter.tfs.com (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:25:54 +0200 (MET DST) From: "Soren Schmidt" Cc: brians@mandor.dev.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <228.845489380@critter.tfs.com> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at Oct 16, 96 08:09:40 pm From: sos@freebsd.org Reply-to: sos@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Poul-Henning Kamp who wrote: > > As it is now, I do FreeBSD for fun, and I work on what's fun for >me< > and what I think the historic necesity dictates that FreeBSD must have. > > I do not jump out of my pants to help people with their more or less > bizarre wishes and problems, unless it matches the above "fun" clause > as well. > > I've raised hell before on the mailing lists, and I don't mind doing > it again, the word from this slightly disgruntled -core member is: > > "CONTRIBUTE, PAY or SHUT UP! (in order of my preference)" > > My hourly rate is USD120/h, various discounts available. Amen !! Maybe we should make it more commonly known that most of us will take on contracts for FreeBSD work.... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- SЬren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team Even more code to hack -- will it ever end .. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 11:29:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA23855 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:29:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA23850; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:29:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA03328; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:27:59 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610161827.LAA03328@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) To: sos@FreeBSD.org Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:27:59 -0700 (MST) Cc: bde@zeta.org.au, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.org, jdp@polstra.com In-Reply-To: <199610161300.PAA22225@ra.dkuug.dk> from "sos@FreeBSD.org" at Oct 16, 96 03:00:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Do you have a better idea, short of patternmatching the first > page of the binary in question ?? I'm all ears :) Run with an indeterminate ABI until you hit the first trap call. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 11:33:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA24059 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:33:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA24053; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:33:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA03352; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:31:57 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610161831.LAA03352@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:31:57 -0700 (MST) Cc: sos@FreeBSD.org, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, jdp@polstra.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <27836.845484390@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Oct 16, 96 09:46:30 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I would wote for ALWAYS branding the ELF files, that way there is > > NO doubt what sex they are, thus giving least trouble. > > > > markelf, brandelf or just plan elf (fixelf sounds a bit harsh :) ) > > "elfspay" Neuter. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 11:39:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA24423 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:39:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wwwi.com (root@voltimand.csd.wwwi.com [199.1.92.12]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA24417 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:39:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cornelius (cornelius.csd.wwwi.com [199.1.92.20]) by wwwi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA29181 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:39:09 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:39:09 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199610161839.LAA29181@wwwi.com> X-Sender: jdw@pop.wwwi.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org From: "Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse" Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 08:32 AM 10/16/96 PDT, Brian Smith wrote: >Some recent (and purposely unattributed) comments imply that the >FreeBSD developers actually owe the users something. I'm very sorry that you mistook my efforts at constructive criticism as complaints. If I weren't very happy with FreeBSD I wouldn't put it in the line of fire every day, and put my reputation on the line by recommending others do the same. I don't mean to imply that anybody "owes" anybody anything; the concept of "free" runs both ways. However, I do believe that a relatively small amount of effort (not a small amount of effort, just a relatively small one) could substantially improve FreeBSD for a lot of its users. That I cited specific examples should not be interpreted as "drop what you're doing and fix this" but more along the lines of any bug report, where the more information provided the better. FreeBSD _does_ have users, including plenty of people who install it off CD or FTP who have no idea how it works, much less how to contribute to it and improve it. It seems like one of the goals of the FreeBSD project is to increase the number of users. Based on my experiences as a FreeBSD user, and as a person who has to spend a lot of time thinking about what users/customers (including the whiny kind who won't be happy no matter what you give them) want, I'm just offering suggestions on how that might be accomplished. I'm sorry you felt the need to flame me (and others like me) for that. Later, Jeff From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 11:43:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA24627 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:43:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA24615 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:43:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA03387; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:41:36 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610161841.LAA03387@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 To: phk@critter.tfs.com (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:41:36 -0700 (MST) Cc: brians@mandor.dev.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <228.845489380@critter.tfs.com> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at Oct 16, 96 08:09:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > If people who use FreeBSD in a commercial setting paid 2% of what it > would have cost them to do the same with shrink-wrapped software, > and private users paid 1% to the FreeBSD Projects funds, then I would > be much more inclined to listen to them and help them. $39.95 (the price of a FreeBSD CDROM) is 5 times the 2% figure you cite for most OS's, and twice the figure you cite for BSDI: SCO $400/$40 = 10 1/10 = 10% BSDI $1000/$40 = 25 1/25 = 4% For what it's worth, let's include the SCO personal use CDROM: $20/$40 = .5 1/.5 = 200% > As it is now, I do FreeBSD for fun, and I work on what's fun for >me< > and what I think the historic necesity dictates that FreeBSD must have. > > I do not jump out of my pants to help people with their more or less > bizarre wishes and problems, unless it matches the above "fun" clause > as well. This is a different matter. It means you aren't being proportionally rewarded for your efforts in lieu of "fun factor as payment". This is a different issue altogether, and should be attacked seperately. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 11:45:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA24790 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:45:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA24785 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:45:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA07182; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610161843.LAA07182@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Terry Lambert cc: jdw@wwwi.com (Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse), freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:14:01 PDT." <199610161814.LAA03254@phaeton.artisoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:43:37 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of Terry Lambert : > > That divergance is exactly the problem I am trying to point out. > > Already three "significant contributors" people have said that > > -stable isn't worth the trouble. However, stable is the only choice > > for people who want a stable OS who don't have a lot of time to > > invest in sanitizing their own private -current. > > > > >So... I would rather see a 2.2R that was, perhaps, a bit rough at the > > >edges (like 2.0R) sooner rather than later. > > > > I agree. If -stable has abandoned, it's time to look toward something > > new. Based on the assertions that several people have made that > > "current is usually fairly stable," it seems like the benefits of > > this might far outweigh the effort, or at least the possibility is > > real enough to discuss. > > I think you are missing the answer: > > Stable gets to be called stable after bunches of people have tested > a release candidate. Bunches of people are not willing to test an > interim release when something newer is available. > > > Stable has not been abandoned. When current is code cut as a release > candidate and is deemed to be sufficient stable to be called stable, > then there will be a new stable. > > > So it comes down to: > > Do you want it to be stable? > > Or do you want people to make bug fixes to it, potentially rendering > it unstable? > > You can't have both. > Actually, if an ISP or two volunteers to update -stable that is to add patches and test the patches in a production environment we can have both 8) Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 11:45:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA24833 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:45:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA24826 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA28275; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:45:23 -0700 (PDT) To: Brian Smith cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Flaming The Users [was Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5] In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:32:19 PDT." <199610161532.IAA18695@mandor.dev.com> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:45:23 -0700 Message-ID: <28273.845491523@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > WARNING! This is a flame against a few people, not all of the audience. > You know who you are. If not, just ask your FreeBSD neighbors. Thanks for jumping to our defense, though I feel I should also point out that "the problem" happily isn't quite as big as you might think from recent postings. By and large, we get a LOT of support from the net and the majority of our users seem to be very much aware of what they're getting for free. It's only a few bad apples (who smell much stronger than the others :-) in a whole barrel of good ones. However, since you've raised the topic, there have been some rather more disturbing developments in FreeBSD's user community which I find far more potentially dangerous to our harmony than a few folks screaming "support me!" The first and most disturbing development has been the increasing number of "don't ask me to think, just tell me what to do!" users. Yes, we did expect the influx as an inevitable statistical percentage of any user population, but it's still pretty scary to see so many of them now flooding our questions (and every other) mailing list with their "hello? whats freebsd and can i Run uNIX under it?" questions (and that's one of the more intelligent/intelligible ones). I've been forced to un-subscribe to our questions mailing list, in fact, it's gotten so bad there and nor do I even respond to a good portion of my email anymore (and I used to respond to *every* message personally, it being a small mark of pride). My mailbox is filled with a never-ending stream of people who do NOT want to read what's at http://www.freebsd.org, they do NOT want to study the code, they, in fact, do not wish to invest any time at all in learning FreeBSD (or even UNIX). They only want me to tell them what to do and I, not being a one-man tech support army, just can't do it. So truly, if I had my choice between accolades or a 15 minute pre-investment of time spent in truly trying to understand a problem before bringing it to me (or to the group), I would choose the latter every time. The accolades are nice, and I really do appreciate all the kind words of support I receive, but what I really desire (and what makes me most genuinely happy to see) is for the users to start thinking for themselves. Perhaps some have gotten the wrong impression, but just because I knock my brains out trying to make FreeBSD more *approachable* does not mean that I see its mission as truly similar to that of Microsoft, an organization which will be more than happy to make all your decisions for you in exchange for "a small fee." We are not, to loosely paraphrase Van Jacobsen, in the business of teaching users complete sentences, we're in the business of teaching them words so that they can make their own sentences. If you, the user, are looking for canned advertising slogans then you've simply come to the wrong place. This leads me to the second disturbing development which, for lack of a better description, I'd call "user disenfranchisement." One thing the Linux camp has going for it (and which also has some big down-sides, so don't think I'm advocating it as a model for emulation here) is its "spirit of anarchy." Whether it's true in practice or not, its users generally *feel* that they could contribute any time they wanted to, just as the common man might feel that his personal vote makes a difference in the running of his government [jkh breaks down in cynical laugher for a moment here, but quickly recovers]. Such depth of feeling in your user community can be an amazingly powerful force, not just for hacking the code but in having users evangelize at work about *their* operating system or writing books and magazine articles about *their* operating system. The average Linux user _does_ feel that Linux is *his* operating system and I doubt that 1 in 10 Linux book authors ever contacted Linus and humbly asked his permission before writing a book about Linux - why should they need to? They're writing about *their* OS! Linus may be the god who produces the kernels, but the Linux religion belongs to all of them. With FreeBSD, however, it seems that we start running into some of the unfortunate psychological side-effects of having a centralized development and distribution model. I don't think that anyone would dispute how much it has helped so many aspects of FreeBSD's development, nor its importance as even just a core differentiation point from Linux, but do most users honestly feel that FreeBSD belongs to *them* or to the FreeBSD core team? I think that those users with enough self-confidence as hackers or power-users probably feel a degree of ownership since they've largely mastered the technology, but the average user who might not hack the code but still grow into a book writer or article author probably does not. In his eyes, FreeBSD belongs to the core team and it's thus the core team's problem to promote it - hell, they probably don't want him involved anyway. They'd only spit on his lack of hacking abilities and tell him to go away, right? And so he continues on, perhaps as a happy user but never as someone who feels any sense of personal opportunity to make a difference. I'm making broad psychological generalizations here, of course, and I'm sure there are many users who will protest at this characterization, citing their own involvement and deep personal feelings for FreeBSD. Well, I'm not talking about you guys and I already know about the depth of your feeling from every time I've ever broken something in FreeBSD ["you hurt my baby, you FIEND!"] :-) I'm talking about a more general malaise which I feel has greater long-term potential for harm from the threat of "an evangelism gap." Evangelism is more than nice, it's crucial. With successful evangelism you can overcome almost every other adversity, in fact. Not enough hackers? Evangelize and they'll come or some company will even throw them at you. Need funding? The TV preachers can tell you all about the direct relationship between evangelism and money. Need FreeBSD related jobs for all the core team members and hackers that want them? Evangelize FreeBSD as a good thing and their phones will be ringing off the hook. Evangelism is the single most important user contribution we can receive, and no slight to engineering intended. Geeze, this has gotten really too long, so I guess I'll summarize by simply saying this to any users who are still actually reading at this point: Gratitude is nice, a willingness to learn is better and a genuine feeling of personal involvement in FreeBSD's success is best of all! If you want to lighten our load, just spend a little time studying (AltaVista and Yahoo are your friends! :) before asking questions and take time out to tell your friends or favorite magazines about FreeBSD! The most it costs you is some time and a postage stamp. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 11:46:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA24859 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:46:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA24854; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:46:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA07201; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:46:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610161846.LAA07201@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: sos@FreeBSD.ORG cc: phk@critter.tfs.com (Poul-Henning Kamp), brians@mandor.dev.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:25:54 +0200." <199610161825.UAA00635@SandBox.CyberCity.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:46:20 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of "Soren Schmidt" :, sos@FreeBSD.ORG : > In reply to Poul-Henning Kamp who wrote: > > > > As it is now, I do FreeBSD for fun, and I work on what's fun for >me< > > and what I think the historic necesity dictates that FreeBSD must have. > > > > I do not jump out of my pants to help people with their more or less > > bizarre wishes and problems, unless it matches the above "fun" clause > > as well. > > > > I've raised hell before on the mailing lists, and I don't mind doing > > it again, the word from this slightly disgruntled -core member is: > > > > "CONTRIBUTE, PAY or SHUT UP! (in order of my preference)" > > > > My hourly rate is USD120/h, various discounts available. > > Amen !! > > Maybe we should make it more commonly known that most of us will > take on contracts for FreeBSD work.... Some of us have been taking FreeBSD contracts 8) Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 11:50:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA25106 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:50:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wwwi.com (root@voltimand.csd.wwwi.com [199.1.92.12]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA25101 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:50:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cornelius (cornelius.csd.wwwi.com [199.1.92.20]) by wwwi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA05089 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:50:26 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:50:26 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199610161850.LAA05089@wwwi.com> X-Sender: jdw@pop.wwwi.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org From: "Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse" Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 08:09 PM 10/16/96 +0200, you wrote: > "CONTRIBUTE, PAY or SHUT UP! (in order of my preference)" Then you shouldn't call it FreeBSD, because it isn't. You should call it "MembersOnlyBSD." I was under the mistaken impression that the core team might be starting to forget that there are users out there. You have made it clear that in fact it is because you are pretending you don't have users. Later, Jeff From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 11:50:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA25148 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:50:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA25143 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA28313; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:50:00 -0700 (PDT) To: Joe Greco cc: rkw@dataplex.net (Richard Wackerbarth), freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:40:08 CDT." <199610161540.KAA27811@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:50:00 -0700 Message-ID: <28310.845491800@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Ah, there's nothing I love more watching a bunch of non-release engineers endlessly debading the methodologies of release engineering. :-) Guys, this ain't Burger King. You get it the release engineer's way or not at all. ;-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 11:51:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA25207 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:51:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from covina.lightside.com (covina.lightside.com [207.67.176.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA25202 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:51:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jehamby@localhost) by covina.lightside.com (8.8.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id LAA03519; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:50:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:50:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Jake Hamby To: Jeremy Sigmon cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Jeremy Sigmon wrote: > Is there any sort of criteria set for what has to be done to -current > before it can be released? All I have seen is ambiguous dates like > Feb'97 and such or my personal favorite, "When its Done". > I am a firm believer in the "When its Done" software releasing scheme, > but is there a set criteria to mark "When its Done"? I'm curious about this one too. Is there anything 2.2-CURRENT is waiting for before it can be released? The only things I can think of are: 1) More pounding on devfs (is it planned as a standard feature installed by sysinstall, or more of an optional feature installed by hand?) 2) More Lite-2 integration? The things I'm pretty sure will not make it into 2.2: 1) Some radical new replacement for sysinstall and/or packages. 2) Any feature that's not already in there. So the way I see things (and since I'm not a core team person, this is just my opinion), FreeBSD 2.2 could easily be released by Christmas, or even the end of November. I think if the core team puts the squeeze on everyone and gives at least a tentative deadline, we'll all go into crunch mode, pay more attention to testing the latest snapshots and/or making world, and in general things will move to a definitive conclusion, otherwise we could just flounder along with -current for years. Because I believe -current is at least as stable as 2.1.5, and certainly more stable than its been at any point in history. Perhaps it's time to split CVS once again into a 2.2.0-RELEASE branch and a new -current, although I personally don't care either way. Just my $0.02, but I would like to hear what Jordan et al has to say on this. -- Jake From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 12:00:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA25559 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:00:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SandBox.CyberCity.dk (disn38.cybercity.dk [194.16.57.38]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA25493; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:59:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by SandBox.CyberCity.dk (8.7.6/8.7.3) id UAA00728; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:59:49 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199610161859.UAA00728@SandBox.CyberCity.dk> Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:59:48 +0200 (MET DST) From: "Soren Schmidt" Cc: sos@FreeBSD.ORG, bde@zeta.org.au, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, jdp@polstra.com In-Reply-To: <199610161827.LAA03328@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Oct 16, 96 11:27:59 am From: sos@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Terry Lambert who wrote: > > > Do you have a better idea, short of patternmatching the first > > page of the binary in question ?? I'm all ears :) > > Run with an indeterminate ABI until you hit the first trap call. And then what ?? try to figure out who did that ?? nah...... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- SЬren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team Even more code to hack -- will it ever end .. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 12:07:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA26154 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:07:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from paris.CS.Berkeley.EDU (paris.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.34.47]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA26147 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:07:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmacd@localhost) by paris.CS.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA08995 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:07:09 -0700 Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:07:09 -0700 From: Josh MacDonald Message-Id: <199610161907.MAA08995@paris.CS.Berkeley.EDU> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: 2.2-961006-SNAP keyboard lockup Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Though keyboard lockups have been much less frequent than they were in August, I just experienced another, similar, lockup. If a fix is in place, perhaps this means it hasn't completely fixed the problem. -josh From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 12:10:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA26500 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:10:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA26481 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id OAA28268; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:09:31 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610161909.OAA28268@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:09:31 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <28310.845491800@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Oct 16, 96 11:50:00 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Ah, there's nothing I love more watching a bunch of non-release > engineers endlessly debading the methodologies of release > engineering. :-) > > Guys, this ain't Burger King. You get it the release engineer's way > or not at all. ;-) There's nothing I love more than watching Jordan call me a non-release engineer. (puts on his release engineer cap). What the hell do you think I do at work, for a living? I'll give you a hint: I do not code applications. I'll give you another hint: my last OS release was in total freeze for three months before I released it. Guess I'm a "non-release engineer". Yup. Guess with only a dozen OS releases under my belt that I have absolutely no clue what this is all about. Yup. I will grant that FreeBSD is probably a larger release engineering project because it includes so many different things along with the base OS. However, my paranoia about release engineering may have something to do with the fact that the work I do ends up in medical monitoring equipment, an area where errors are generally not very tolerable. I like procedure and rigor because the last minute change is guaranteed to screw up, no matter how good you are. Do I understand that release engineering is not easy? Yes, I do. Am I interested in seeing the FreeBSD process improve? Yes, I am. Did I say it was easy, or that Jordan was being lazy? No, I did not. Anyways... I'm about as much a non-release engineer as Jordan is a non-FreeBSD hacker. You aren't the only person who has ever been a release engineer, Jordan. Please watch the petty and snide remarks. ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Software Engineer, UNIX/Network Hacker, Etc. 414/362-3308 Marquette Electronics, Inc. - R&D - Milwaukee, WI jgreco@mei.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 12:25:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA27965 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:25:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gateway.skipstone.com (root@GATEWAY.SKIPSTONE.COM [198.214.10.129]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA27958 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:25:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bugs.skipstone.com (bugs.skipstone.com [204.69.236.2]) by gateway.skipstone.com (8.7.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA17110; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:25:37 -0500 Received: from [204.69.236.50] (hotapplepie.skipstone.com [204.69.236.50]) by bugs.skipstone.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA17353; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:25:35 -0500 X-Sender: rkw@mail.dataplex.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:25:35 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: rkw@dataplex.net (Richard Wackerbarth) Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Ah, there's nothing I love more watching a bunch of non-release >engineers endlessly debading the methodologies of release >engineering. :-) > >Guys, this ain't Burger King. You get it the release engineer's way >or not at all. ;-) And as one who has done release engineering for paying customers, I can tell you that your methodology is hurting your ability to be taken as a serious product rather than a hobbyist toy. I am at this moment sitting in a client's office listening to some of them argue that Linux is a better product to use AS A CORPORATE SERVER. Part of their argument is directly related to their perception of the lack of release testing. Now, I happen to think that you can easily choose FreeBSD systems that are superior. I would like to see that perception grow. Remember -- Image is everything. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 12:42:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA29562 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:42:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA29557 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:42:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA13142; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:41:55 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:41:55 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199610161941.NAA13142@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: "Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse" Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Users vs. developers (was Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 ) In-Reply-To: <199610161850.LAA05089@wwwi.com> References: <199610161850.LAA05089@wwwi.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk My last diatribe on this topic: > > "CONTRIBUTE, PAY or SHUT UP! (in order of my preference)" > Then you shouldn't call it FreeBSD, because it isn't. You should > call it "MembersOnlyBSD." Why? As you stated already, you are willing to stake your business and reputation on FreeBSD now, and you didn't pay anything to get it. However, what Poul is saying is that IFF you want don't like the ways things are currently being done, then the above ideas are your options. Provide a better solution, pay someone to build a better solution, or live with the current system. > I was under the mistaken impression that the core team might be > starting to forget that there are users out there. You have made > it clear that in fact it is because you are pretending you don't > have users. Not speaking for the core team (I can't, I'm no longer a core member :), but I think this is where you and I disagree. We have users, but making the users feel 'happy and secure' is a secondary goal to making *me* feel 'sane and content'. Too often the primary goal conflicts with the secondary goal, so the developers chooses the former over the latter to the obvious displeasure of the user who feels slighted. The slight is often un-intentional (though occasionally venting anger makes the developer keep his/her sanity), but it does bring out the difficulty we have in juggling our lives and our hobby. The solution from a developer perspective: The more 'developers' there are the less work for each developer. It also means that each developer has to do less and less 'grunt' work and more fun work, which means that everyone wins. Where to get developers? The users of course. Who better understands the problems of FreeBSD. The developers are already well aware of most of the problems in the systems, they simply don't have the time/desire/ability to fix all of them. So, asking you to provide solutions to your problems isn't an attempt to belittle you, it's a cry for help. You say you have no time, and are too busy with Real Work(tm)? Do you think *ANY* of the developers have gobs of free time? *laugh* It's all a matter of priorities. If the 'fix' is an important to you as you make it out to be, then the fix should be equally as important. It's alot easier for a user to say 'Hey you, go fix the bug and make my life easier' than it is to go fix the bug yourself, but that means less sleep for the developer? Is that fair to expect that or even continually ask that of the developers? Finally, the statements of the kind: "You obviously don't care about the users" are pure bunk, and only serve to anger the ddevelopers. All of the developers have sacrified thousands of hours of their time for FreeBSD, most with little or no compensation. We could 'hoard' it to ourselves if we truly didn't care about the users, but instead we found a great sponsor who gives us free hardware to do the development on, free bandwidth to distribute the bits, and even pays a couple folks to make the product better, all to the benefit of the users. Some of the developers don't need a 'cool sysinstall' program. They could install the software using magnets and no keyboard (I'm not one of them). *grin* As users, you need to put yourselves in the shoes of the developers. I can only speak for myself in that I try to put myself in the shoes of the user. My offer to do the work for 2.1.5 was genuine, but to be honest I made it knowing full well that no-one will take me up on it. IMHO, the users too often 'expect' more out of the developers than they would ever expect of themselves. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 12:45:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA29847 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:45:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA29840 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:45:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA29486; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:43:47 -0700 (PDT) To: Joe Greco cc: rkw@dataplex.net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:23:30 CDT." <199610161823.NAA28163@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:43:46 -0700 Message-ID: <29484.845495026@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > this is true, and I am sure that you do too. However, my past > experience with the SNAP releases has generally been bad enough that > I am not willing to run them on production equipment, even when backed > up with a redundant system. They may be fine for desktop use, or And, as a BETA tester, I would never have expected you to. I fail to see how this is germain to the argument in question. > With a formalized RELEASE procedure, essentially what you are doing is > calling a feature freeze, cutting a "SNAP" (ALPHA), followed by one or > two more cleanup "SNAP"'s (BETA/GAMMA), followed by RELEASE. This And yet I would *never* have recommended that someone run ALPHA, BETA or GAMMA code on a production system. If you were doing this then you somehow missed the entire essence of what the process was supposed to be about. > Well, and this is sorta a critical concept, the fact that a given "SNAP" > is part of a formal release cycle makes it a very important SNAP. All SNAPs are part of the format release cycle. When a SNAP is getting particularly close to a *scheduled release* then I have always qualified that and tried to get folks to give it a little extra attention, and generally they have. Like I said, the system works for me and I'm going to stick with it. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 12:45:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA29911 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:45:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.230.177]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA29900; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:45:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA00507; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:44:58 +0200 (MET DST) To: Terry Lambert cc: brians@mandor.dev.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:41:36 PDT." <199610161841.LAA03387@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:44:58 +0200 Message-ID: <505.845495098@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199610161841.LAA03387@phaeton.artisoft.com>, Terry Lambert writes: >> If people who use FreeBSD in a commercial setting paid 2% of what it >> would have cost them to do the same with shrink-wrapped software, >> and private users paid 1% to the FreeBSD Projects funds, then I would >> be much more inclined to listen to them and help them. > >$39.95 (the price of a FreeBSD CDROM) is 5 times the 2% figure you >cite for most OS's, and twice the figure you cite for BSDI: Terry, you must be the only person on the planet who doesn't actually get in touch with reality on a regular basis :-) The FreeBSD project doesn't get $39.95 for each CD sold. We get a place to run our development machines. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 12:49:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA00327 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:49:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA00318 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:49:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA29547; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:49:21 -0700 (PDT) To: "Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse" cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:39:09 PDT." <199610161839.LAA29181@wwwi.com> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:49:21 -0700 Message-ID: <29545.845495361@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I'm very sorry that you mistook my efforts at constructive criticism > as complaints. If I weren't very happy with FreeBSD I wouldn't put I think you simply touched a nerve already rubbed somewhat raw. I also didn't read your posting as particularly demanding, certainly nowhere near as much as some ISPs have been in the past, and if you took a disproportionate amount of heat for it then that was simply an unfortunate accident of timing. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 12:57:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA00746 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA00741 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:56:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA29590; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:54:14 -0700 (PDT) To: Jake Hamby cc: Jeremy Sigmon , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:50:44 PDT." Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:54:14 -0700 Message-ID: <29588.845495654@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > 1) More pounding on devfs (is it planned as a standard feature installed > by sysinstall, or more of an optional feature installed by hand?) The latter. AFAIK, Julian still hasn't solved the persistance problem (though we discussed a number of different ways it could be done fairly trivially and I don't know what's holding him up) and people running with it as their /dev still show an unfortunate tendency to crash a lot, so no. > So the way I see things (and since I'm not a core team person, this is > just my opinion), FreeBSD 2.2 could easily be released by Christmas, or > even the end of November. I think if the core team puts the squeeze on NFS weirdness seems to be the #1 monster under the bed with 2.2 - might some of you folks out there with multiple machines be willing to assist John and Doug with some stress-testing? If you can find and reproduce bugs yourselves, that's even better (e.g. they need someone to help play QA team on NFS). Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 13:01:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA01079 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:01:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA01074 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:01:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA29629; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:00:43 -0700 (PDT) To: Joe Greco cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:09:31 CDT." <199610161909.OAA28268@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:00:43 -0700 Message-ID: <29627.845496043@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I'm about as much a non-release engineer as Jordan is a non-FreeBSD hacker. > You aren't the only person who has ever been a release engineer, Jordan. > Please watch the petty and snide remarks. Sorry, but I guess it's easy to be petty and snide with someone whom I consider to be "the Charles Hannum" of FreeBSD. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 13:03:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA01146 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA01136 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:03:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA29640; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:03:01 -0700 (PDT) To: "Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse" cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:50:26 PDT." <199610161850.LAA05089@wwwi.com> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:03:01 -0700 Message-ID: <29638.845496181@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Then you shouldn't call it FreeBSD, because it isn't. You should > call it "MembersOnlyBSD." I think now you yourself are starting to become infected with flamer's disease (it's the one where people say and do stupid things which have no bearing on actual reality). I'd seriously recommend standing down on this issue NOW before it deteriorates any further. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 13:07:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA01453 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:07:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA01443 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:07:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id PAA28465; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:06:29 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610162006.PAA28465@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:06:29 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <29484.845495026@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Oct 16, 96 12:43:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > this is true, and I am sure that you do too. However, my past > > experience with the SNAP releases has generally been bad enough that > > I am not willing to run them on production equipment, even when backed > > up with a redundant system. They may be fine for desktop use, or > > And, as a BETA tester, I would never have expected you to. I fail > to see how this is germain to the argument in question. The point was, I generally am not going to be willing to run a non- A/B/G/R release (i.e. other interim SNAP's) because they are often too flaky and the return on my investment is rather less than it might be. That is to say, if I can help eliminate bugs during an A/B/G/R release phase, that is (in my mind) truly productive and is not too "expensive" to me because there is much less work involved in upgrading to the soon-to-be-released RELEASE. If I simply install every SNAP, there is no guarantee that things will get better with the next SNAP, because perhaps you or whoever makes a small goof in some new feature bit of code that ends up blowing up the system consistently. That is where the "feature freeze" comes in. It essentially suggests to me that I am not going to be screwed over in this manner - the chances are very much in favor of a BETA release being better than an ALPHA release. The "time interval" gives me some time with which to actually test the release and perhaps find bugs beyond the obvious ones. It increases your chances for stability. > > With a formalized RELEASE procedure, essentially what you are doing is > > calling a feature freeze, cutting a "SNAP" (ALPHA), followed by one or > > two more cleanup "SNAP"'s (BETA/GAMMA), followed by RELEASE. This > > And yet I would *never* have recommended that someone run ALPHA, BETA > or GAMMA code on a production system. If you were doing this then you > somehow missed the entire essence of what the process was supposed to > be about. No, I did not. Jordan, I don't know how you think bugs get found, but in my experience they get found by people giving the code a workout. In order to get a stable "R" release, this means that the code has to be given a workout BEFORE the release - during the "A/B/G" phases. The essence of the process is that people are supposed to do everything that they can to break the A/B/G versions because once you get to the R version, you are stuck with it until the next release, six months off. > > Well, and this is sorta a critical concept, the fact that a given "SNAP" > > is part of a formal release cycle makes it a very important SNAP. > > All SNAPs are part of the format release cycle. When a SNAP is > getting particularly close to a *scheduled release* then I have always > qualified that and tried to get folks to give it a little extra > attention, and generally they have. Like I said, the system works for > me and I'm going to stick with it. I guess I just haven't seen it work quite that way, but it's hard to say. The lack of formality sort of hides the process. :-( ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 13:10:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA01641 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:10:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA01634 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:10:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id PAA28474; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:08:27 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610162008.PAA28474@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:08:26 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <29627.845496043@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Oct 16, 96 01:00:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I'm about as much a non-release engineer as Jordan is a non-FreeBSD hacker. > > You aren't the only person who has ever been a release engineer, Jordan. > > Please watch the petty and snide remarks. > > Sorry, but I guess it's easy to be petty and snide with someone whom I > consider to be "the Charles Hannum" of FreeBSD. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHA!!!!!! Thank you, Jordan ;-) ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 13:12:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA01757 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:12:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA01729 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:12:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA29684; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:11:57 -0700 (PDT) To: rkw@dataplex.net (Richard Wackerbarth) cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:25:35 MDT." Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:11:57 -0700 Message-ID: <29682.845496717@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > And as one who has done release engineering for paying customers, I can > tell you that your methodology is hurting your ability to be taken as a > serious product rather than a hobbyist toy. Richard, there are a whole SLEW of things we do and don't do which both hinder and help our ability to be taken seriously. Not having truly working 3COM adaptor support sucks, as does our poor IDE CDROM support. Not having a paid tech support hotline somewhere sucks, as does the non-ability to call ourselves fully POSIX compliant. I could go on, citing factors from every corner of FreeBSD's development which are lacking. What makes you think that release engineering is somehow immune to the same process of trade-offs, focusing on some things to the unfortunate and necessary exclusion of others? We don't have infinite resources in *any* area of FreeBSD's development, and if you expected a rose garden then I'm here to disappoint you. No, we don't match your ideal picture. We don't match mine, either, FWIW. What we ARE is simply no more than what we can be at this particular time with the resources we have available. > I am at this moment sitting in a client's office listening to some of them > argue that Linux is a better product to use AS A CORPORATE SERVER. Part of > their argument is directly related to their perception of the lack of > release testing. Then your clients are on drugs and need to call the Betty Ford Hotline (1-800-POP-PILLS). I don't see any heroic degree of release testing being expended in the various Linux camps. I see some nice packaging and some admirable vendor deals, but I don't see lots and lots of credible testing, sorry. >Remember -- Image is everything. See my previous missive about evangelism. None of that has anything to do with engineering, however. If you can sell something as intangible as god then you can sell anything, and all this engineering talk is mostly irrelevant to the "image" question. Stick to one topic, please! :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 13:15:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA01906 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:15:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.230.177]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA01890; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:14:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA00560; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:14:09 +0200 (MET DST) To: "Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse" cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:50:26 PDT." <199610161850.LAA05089@wwwi.com> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:14:09 +0200 Message-ID: <558.845496849@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199610161850.LAA05089@wwwi.com>, "Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse" writes: >At 08:09 PM 10/16/96 +0200, you wrote: >I was under the mistaken impression that the core team might be >starting to forget that there are users out there. You have made >it clear that in fact it is because you are pretending you don't >have users. Well, it may depend on the meaning you put in the word "users". At work I have "users" that rely on my service. They pay my company (TRW) so they can rely on that service being available. In FreeBSD context I have people who "use" FreeBSD. This is as you can see two different concepts and I think it is important that we know what kind of "users" we talk about. The first kind can tell me what to do, the second kind will have to be contend with whatever catches my fancy. It is obvious from this that if the FreeBSD usercommunity was the source of my income to the extent that my family could survive, then they could tell me what to do, now they can't. Yes, I dream of the day where I can work FreeBSD 14h+ a day, but until the users can&will provide the income I need to pay for food&clothes for my family, that will not happen. Remember, "He who pays the piper calls the tune!" This piper isn't getting paid, so he'll play for the girls instead of evicting rats. Political speeches about the importance of rodent extermination are unlikely to inspire him to do more than clean them out from his own house. You can't really blame him for that, can you ? -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 13:21:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA02358 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:21:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.230.177]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA02350; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA00598; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:21:05 +0200 (MET DST) To: Joe Greco cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:09:31 CDT." <199610161909.OAA28268@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:21:05 +0200 Message-ID: <596.845497265@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199610161909.OAA28268@brasil.moneng.mei.com>, Joe Greco writes: >Do I understand that release engineering is not easy? Yes, I do. > >Am I interested in seeing the FreeBSD process improve? Yes, I am. > >Did I say it was easy, or that Jordan was being lazy? No, I did not. You forgot one: Do I volounteer to do the next release ? Yes I do! :-) -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 13:22:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA02401 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:22:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA02396 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA29740; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:21:20 -0700 (PDT) To: Joe Greco cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:06:29 CDT." <199610162006.PAA28465@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:21:19 -0700 Message-ID: <29738.845497279@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Jordan, I don't know how you think bugs get found, but in my experience > they get found by people giving the code a workout. In order to get > a stable "R" release, this means that the code has to be given a workout > BEFORE the release - during the "A/B/G" phases. And I guess I don't know what you consider "production" systems, but I would still never bring such a system into a true production environment, period.. I would test it on another machine using *simulated* load or some collection of my users who were in turn explictly BETA customers themselves, but anything more than this and you're running plain off the rails and NOT doing what I try to recommend that FreeBSD's users do (e.g. "don't run pre-releases on your production hardware!"). That's my story and I'm sticking with it. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 13:23:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA02456 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net ([198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA02446 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:22:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA04069; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:19:04 -0500 (EST) From: John Dyson Message-Id: <199610162019.PAA04069@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:19:04 -0500 (EST) Cc: jehamby@lightside.com, jsigmon@www.hsc.wvu.edu, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <29588.845495654@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Oct 16, 96 12:54:14 pm Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > NFS weirdness seems to be the #1 monster under the bed with 2.2 - > might some of you folks out there with multiple machines be willing to > assist John and Doug with some stress-testing? If you can find and > reproduce bugs yourselves, that's even better (e.g. they need someone > to help play QA team on NFS). > I would appreciate it if those that can, please test my patches that I sent out to -current mailing list for amd and running programs from NFS both normally and with forcible dismounts. Tonight will also be an NFS night, so send-pr and send me any NFS (or general VFS) bugs that you find!!! (Stack tracebacks are needed!!!) Thanks John From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 13:34:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA03263 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:34:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA03254 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:34:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.7.6/8.6.5) with SMTP id NAA09356; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:33:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610162033.NAA09356@root.com> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.root.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Joe Greco cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:08:26 CDT." <199610162008.PAA28474@brasil.moneng.mei.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:33:46 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> > I'm about as much a non-release engineer as Jordan is a non-FreeBSD hacker. >> > You aren't the only person who has ever been a release engineer, Jordan. >> > Please watch the petty and snide remarks. >> >> Sorry, but I guess it's easy to be petty and snide with someone whom I >> consider to be "the Charles Hannum" of FreeBSD. > >HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHA!!!!!! > >Thank you, Jordan ;-) I think this whole thread has degenerated to an amazingly low level. Of course you are nothing like Charles, and of course what Jordan meant in his original comment was that you aren't a FreeBSD release engineer and never have been. What release-engineering duties you have during your day job has very little to do with the release engineering that we do with FreeBSD. The defining difference being that in a company, the boss tells you how it will be, and in FreeBSD it's however we think we can do it with the least pain (the pain being balanced between the amount of effort it takes and the acceptable product quality level). We do the best we can and I believe we have struck a good balance and have put out several good releases to show for it. In actual fact, we have been doing alpha/beta/gamma releases. With every near-release SNAP that Jordan has done in the past releases, he has indicated that a certain SNAP should be considered the "alpha" candidate, or the "beta" candidate, etc. What we have stopped doing is organize a large release testing team. We simply don't have the resources to manage it and more importantly, haven't found enough interested people to participate. If YOU want to do this, then that would be great and I'm sure it would help the product quality in the final release. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 13:35:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA03400 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:35:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA03384 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:35:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id PAA28535; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:34:22 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610162034.PAA28535@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:34:21 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <29738.845497279@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Oct 16, 96 01:21:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Jordan, I don't know how you think bugs get found, but in my experience > > they get found by people giving the code a workout. In order to get > > a stable "R" release, this means that the code has to be given a workout > > BEFORE the release - during the "A/B/G" phases. > > And I guess I don't know what you consider "production" systems, but I > would still never bring such a system into a true production > environment, period.. I would test it on another machine using > *simulated* load or some collection of my users who were in turn > explictly BETA customers themselves, but anything more than this and > you're running plain off the rails and NOT doing what I try to > recommend that FreeBSD's users do (e.g. "don't run pre-releases on > your production hardware!"). > > That's my story and I'm sticking with it. I generally engineer redundancy into my systems. If I feel that I can afford to risk losing one system when a backup with a high confidence level is available, wouldn't you rather see me test the release on a production system where it will be applied to real world stresses? It is not exactly playing Russian Roulette, ya know. :-) I'd be much more hesitant to do it with Linux. Since I am ultimately answerable to myself with respect to my systems and operations, if I feel comfortable running a pre-release on a system, I promise not to blame you for any problems discovered while doing so. I might certainly submit some PR's, though, and that should be what a pre-release period is all about. Okay? :-) ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 14:14:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA06456 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:14:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA06447 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:14:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from odysseus.sae.gr (gate.sae.gr [194.219.29.62]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id OAA26349 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:14:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from asvestas@localhost) by odysseus.sae.gr (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA26588; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:10:16 +0300 Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:10:16 +0300 (EET DST) From: Kostas Asvestas To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Planet PCI Ethernet Card Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I have the Walnut Creek's 2.1.5 distribution and i've install it in 3 machines intended for use in an ISP. My big problem is that the ethernet cards are the ones in Subject line. I've heard tha in the 2.2 tree there is a driver for that card. If this is true please tell me what i must do to patch in some way the kernel. I don't want to leave the -stable state of 2.1.5 for obvious reasons. We have also a Netware fileserver, is there a way to mount the volumes from him? I have seen that there is support for IPX/SPX. Thanks in advance for any answers. PS: I don't want in any way to leave FreeBsd for the lack of a driver, so please help.. Kostas Asvestas From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 14:17:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA06646 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:17:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA06638 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:17:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id QAA28661; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:15:47 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610162115.QAA28661@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:15:47 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610162033.NAA09356@root.com> from "David Greenman" at Oct 16, 96 01:33:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I think this whole thread has degenerated to an amazingly low level. Of Agreed. > course you are nothing like Charles, and of course what Jordan meant in his :-) > original comment was that you aren't a FreeBSD release engineer and never > have been. What release-engineering duties you have during your day job has > very little to do with the release engineering that we do with FreeBSD. The > defining difference being that in a company, the boss tells you how it will > be, and in FreeBSD it's however we think we can do it with the least pain (the (not particularly true, at least in my case: I design and implement and my boss is not really involved. I am directly responsible for meeting the needs of the application programmers, and can choose to do so in whatever manner I deem appropriate.) > pain being balanced between the amount of effort it takes and the acceptable > product quality level). We do the best we can and I believe we have struck a > good balance and have put out several good releases to show for it. Hi David, I do respect and understand that. However, please bear in mind that I have been along for the ride since the very early days... and during that time, I have seen the importance of the release procedure diminish gradually. Now Jordan is stating that the release procedure (as it has historically been) has been declared *discontinued*. Part of the reason several good releases have been put out is because they have each successively built upon the foundation laid by the previous release. I have a hard time accepting this as proof that the current release process is adequate: a release process is designed to wring out the bugs in a release, and if the bug rate is unusually low to begin with, the release process does not necessarily need to be rigorous. I am not sure that I have as much confidence in this sort of paradigm when 2.2R is released. That is why I am raising this issue NOW. > In actual fact, we have been doing alpha/beta/gamma releases. With every > near-release SNAP that Jordan has done in the past releases, he has indicated > that a certain SNAP should be considered the "alpha" candidate, or the "beta" Then why not formalize it and call them ALPHA, and BETA? I do not see why this necessarily has to cause more work for Jordan, but it does provide the rest of us with some benefits. 1) It's easier to see what is going on. 2) Feature freeze means increased stability as you progress from A->R 3) Well defined time frames mean that I have a chance to test -A and still report back during the -A period before -B is released. I would think it would be a bit easier on Jordan too. > candidate, etc. What we have stopped doing is organize a large release testing > team. We simply don't have the resources to manage it and more importantly, > haven't found enough interested people to participate. If YOU want to do this, > then that would be great and I'm sure it would help the product quality in > the final release. I am _ALWAYS_ happy to test a version that is on the release path. I cannot give it a comprehensive work out, nobody can, but I can test it thoroughly in the environments which I have available to me. I have _ALWAYS_ had this policy and have done my best to follow it. It has, however, become difficult to differentiate random SNAP's from things that might be worthy of testing. As I recall, I was not aware of 2.1.5R's impending release even two weeks before the release. This is not particularly helpful to either you or me. (I do not wish to test random SNAP's because, the way I understand it, they were mainly designed to give needful users early access to new features, and provide more exposure for -current.) I don't think this should be such a big deal. Perhaps someone would explain how it is more difficult to follow a formal release methodology to me. I do not see it being more complex than (perhaps) changing the release name, calling a feature freeze, doing A/B/{G/,}R releases, and showing a little discipline. Is that really more difficult than the current SNAP procedure? I think it should be mainly a matter of additional formality, not additional work for the RE. Am I wrong? Someone help me understand... And regardless, of course I am happy to continue testing release path candidates. I just need to be able to spot them. Thanks, ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/546-7968 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 14:18:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA06710 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:18:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.gbdata.com (Main.GBData.COM [207.90.222.20]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA06701 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:17:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from gclarkii@localhost) by main.gbdata.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA27170; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:16:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Gary Clark II Message-Id: <199610162116.QAA27170@main.gbdata.com> Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:16:01 -0500 (CDT) Cc: phk@critter.tfs.com, brians@mandor.dev.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199610161841.LAA03387@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Oct 16, 96 11:41:36 am" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert wrote: > > If people who use FreeBSD in a commercial setting paid 2% of what it > > would have cost them to do the same with shrink-wrapped software, > > and private users paid 1% to the FreeBSD Projects funds, then I would > > be much more inclined to listen to them and help them. > > $39.95 (the price of a FreeBSD CDROM) is 5 times the 2% figure you > cite for most OS's, and twice the figure you cite for BSDI: This is only from Wallnut Creek. You can find them alot cheaper than that around. > > SCO > $400/$40 = 10 > 1/10 = 10% Is this the FULL package? Development also? Unlimted user? Networking? > BSDI > $1000/$40 = 25 > 1/25 = 4% How much is the BSDI source license up to now? How much is a unlimted user license? NOTE: Please tell me if BSDI has went back to $1000 source and unlimted user, I've got a customer running 2.1 I love to have source for. > > For what it's worth, let's include the SCO personal use CDROM: > $20/$40 = .5 > 1/.5 = 200% > > > As it is now, I do FreeBSD for fun, and I work on what's fun for >me< > > and what I think the historic necesity dictates that FreeBSD must have. > > > > I do not jump out of my pants to help people with their more or less > > bizarre wishes and problems, unless it matches the above "fun" clause > > as well. > > This is a different matter. It means you aren't being proportionally > rewarded for your efforts in lieu of "fun factor as payment". This is > a different issue altogether, and should be attacked seperately. > > > Regards, > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > Gary -- Gary Clark II (N5VMF) | I speak only for myself and "maybe" my company gclarkii@GBData.COM | Member of the FreeBSD Doc Team Providing Internet and ISP startups mail info@GBData.COM for information FreeBSD FAQ at ftp://ftp.FreeBSD.ORG/pub/FreeBSD/docs/freebsd-faq.ascii From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 14:25:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA07218 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:25:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA07197 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:24:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id QAA28690; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:22:41 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610162122.QAA28690@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 To: phk@critter.tfs.com (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:22:40 -0500 (CDT) Cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <596.845497265@critter.tfs.com> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at Oct 16, 96 10:21:05 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > In message <199610161909.OAA28268@brasil.moneng.mei.com>, Joe Greco writes: > > >Do I understand that release engineering is not easy? Yes, I do. > > > >Am I interested in seeing the FreeBSD process improve? Yes, I am. > > > >Did I say it was easy, or that Jordan was being lazy? No, I did not. > > You forgot one: > > Do I volounteer to do the next release ? Yes I do! > > :-) Hi, Anyone who volunteers is inherently un(der)qualified. If I believed that I could do the job any justice, I might consider letting myself get roped into it. As it is, I do not have time for current commitments, and since sol.net is not a revenue generating entity, I am unlikely to be able to hire anyone to reduce my workload. So maybe I will just volunteer and immediately disqualify myself anyways. :-) ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 14:26:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA07307 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:26:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA07228 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:25:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailbox.mcs.com (Mailbox.mcs.com [192.160.127.87]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id QAA10766; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:22:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mailbox.mcs.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.15) id ; Wed, 16 Oct 96 16:22 CDT Received: (from karl@localhost) by Jupiter.Mcs.Net (8.8.Beta.6/8.8.Beta.3) id QAA18113; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:21:17 -0500 (CDT) From: Karl Denninger Message-Id: <199610162121.QAA18113@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:21:17 -0500 (CDT) Cc: jdw@wwwi.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <29638.845496181@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Oct 16, 96 01:03:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Then you shouldn't call it FreeBSD, because it isn't. You should > > call it "MembersOnlyBSD." > > I think now you yourself are starting to become infected with flamer's > disease (it's the one where people say and do stupid things which have > no bearing on actual reality). I'd seriously recommend standing down > on this issue NOW before it deteriorates any further. > > Jordan Uh, yeah. There are some problems in FreeBSD currently. There is one particular nasty bug which is causing us heartburn right now, in fact. However, this is mitigated by two things: 1) The core team KNOWS this one particular heartburn problem is a big deal to us. 2) The OTHER problems that we've found we can either (1) fix ourselves, or (2) have gotten reasonable response to. FreeBSD goes through cycles where its not fit to be toilet paper. So does any other piece of software. The difference is that with most commercialware you can't get ahold of the interim copies AT ALL, and if they do release a toiletware copy you're basically *screwed* for months if not years (see Solaris 2.x before 2.4 for some fine examples of this.) If you aren't willing to run your own lab then don't use the non-RELEASE versions in production. Period. If you ARE willing to run your own lab, then RUN YOUR OWN LAB. If you can contribute back to the community, that's even better. I've heard lots of allegations about hiding things and sinister problems and black-holing fixes, especially in the security realm. Every time I've actually looked into it, the bottom line is that no substantiation has been found and there is a hint of someone's political motive in the allegation. I *LIKE* FreeBSD. Enough to work on fixing the ONE serious problem that I have with the release -- once we have that FIXED then every machine at MCSNet will end up running it in very, very short order. We beat the SNOT out of this OS. It works. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - The Finest Internet Connectivity http://www.mcs.net/~karl | T1 from $600 monthly; speeds to DS-3 available | 23 Chicagoland Prefixes, 13 ISDN, much more Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| Email to "info@mcs.net" WWW: http://www.mcs.net/ Fax: [+1 312 248-9865] | Home of Chicago's only FULL Clarinet feed! From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 14:37:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA08135 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:37:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA08130 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:36:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA00321; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:35:30 -0700 (PDT) To: Kostas Asvestas cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Planet PCI Ethernet Card In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:10:16 +0300." Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:35:30 -0700 Message-ID: <319.845501730@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > My big problem is that the ethernet cards are the ones in Subject line. > I've heard tha in the 2.2 tree there is a driver for that card. I don't think so - I've never even heard of this card. What chipset does it use? > We have also a Netware fileserver, is there a way to mount the > volumes from him? A commercial product from http://www.netcon.com exists, other than that I don't think so (unless you buy the NFS NLM for your Novell server). Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 15:05:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA09949 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:05:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA09840 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:03:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from current1.whistle.com (current1.whistle.com [207.76.205.22]) by alpo.whistle.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA00512; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:59:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <32655A42.15FB7483@whistle.com> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:57:22 -0700 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse" CC: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 References: <199610161850.LAA05089@wwwi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse wrote: > > At 08:09 PM 10/16/96 +0200, you wrote: > > "CONTRIBUTE, PAY or SHUT UP! (in order of my preference)" > > Then you shouldn't call it FreeBSD, because it isn't. You should > call it "MembersOnlyBSD." > > I was under the mistaken impression that the core team might be > starting to forget that there are users out there. You have made > it clear that in fact it is because you are pretending you don't > have users. > > Later, > Jeff I think that tempers are fraying and I think we should all shut up here.. here is the way I see it.. 2.1.x was needed to give us the time to get 2.2 over some major hurdles. we did this ONLY because of the users. 2.2 is close enough now that we are going to 'cut and run' or more appropriatly, cut and jump we are going to jump to 2.2 hopefully that will take about the same amount of time as it would to make a new release of 2.1.7 or something.. 2.1.6 will exist as a patches only version of 2.1.5 in the interim. after this rather dangerous manouvre, we will all be warm and cosy again but based on 2.2.. without this we can't POSSIBLY start to support the SMP boards and other new products. and we'll die. we have NO CHOICE!!!!!! when 2.2 goes out the door there will be a feature freeze for sure.. call it beta or alpha or whatever.. it's the same thing.. julian From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 15:13:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA10301 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:13:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA10288 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:13:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from current1.whistle.com (current1.whistle.com [207.76.205.22]) by alpo.whistle.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA00794; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:10:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <32655CDB.59E2B600@whistle.com> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:08:27 -0700 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: Jake Hamby , Jeremy Sigmon , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question References: <29588.845495654@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > 1) More pounding on devfs (is it planned as a standard feature installed > > by sysinstall, or more of an optional feature installed by hand?) > > The latter. AFAIK, Julian still hasn't solved the persistance problem > (though we discussed a number of different ways it could be done > fairly trivially and I don't know what's holding him up) real work (TM) > and people running > with it as their /dev still show an unfortunate tendency to crash > a lot, that's actually not true at all. > so no. personally I don't think persistance is of any importance but I hear the crowd yelling for their placebo's so I will do it some time.. but it tripples the complexity of the filesystem. > > > So the way I see things (and since I'm not a core team person, this is > > just my opinion), FreeBSD 2.2 could easily be released by Christmas, or > > even the end of November. I think if the core team puts the squeeze on > sure.. > NFS weirdness seems to be the #1 monster under the bed with 2.2 - > might some of you folks out there with multiple machines be willing to > assist John and Doug with some stress-testing? If you can find and > reproduce bugs yourselves, that's even better (e.g. they need someone > to help play QA team on NFS). > we're using 2.2 heavily.. we have 3 outstanding problems one of which might be solved but I haven't checked.. > Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 15:25:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA11049 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:25:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from becker1.u.washington.edu (spaz@becker1.u.washington.edu [140.142.12.67]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA11043 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (spaz@localhost) by becker1.u.washington.edu (8.7.5+UW96.10/8.7.3+UW96.10) with SMTP id PAA14818; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:24:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:24:16 -0700 (PDT) From: John Utz To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Joe Greco , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-Reply-To: <29627.845496043@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ACK! On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I'm about as much a non-release engineer as Jordan is a non-FreeBSD hacker. > > You aren't the only person who has ever been a release engineer, Jordan. > > Please watch the petty and snide remarks. > > Sorry, but I guess it's easy to be petty and snide with someone whom I > consider to be "the Charles Hannum" of FreeBSD. Whoa! Where did this come from? Now, I concede that there was a 3 month period in the last what 5, 6 years ( has it been that long since 386BSD? ) where i have not been subscribed to hackers. But unless there was a MAJOR discontinuity that started the day i unsubscribed ( my wife made me! ) and ended the day i resubscribed, i have not seen anything publicly emitted by Joe to rate the serious crankmiester rating u seemed to have promoted him to! I cant figure out for the life of me how the relationship between the two of you has gotten so sideways! I have never gotten the sense that either of you are that unreasonable. Is there some sort of off line nastygrams and vitupero-mail going back and forth? I certainly hope not. This looks totally incomprehensible from my vantage point :-( Jordan' spost tend to be a little bit funnier, on average but i cant say that i have not reaped a lot of knowledge from the both of you over the years! > Jordan > Is there any going back to a more positive footing? tnx! ******************************************************************************* John Utz spaz@u.washington.edu idiocy is the impulse function in the convolution of life From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 15:44:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA12227 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:44:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA12220 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:44:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA04030; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:42:55 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610162242.PAA04030@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 To: phk@critter.tfs.com (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:42:55 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, brians@mandor.dev.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <505.845495098@critter.tfs.com> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at Oct 16, 96 09:44:58 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > In message <199610161841.LAA03387@phaeton.artisoft.com>, Terry Lambert writes: > >> If people who use FreeBSD in a commercial setting paid 2% of what it > >> would have cost them to do the same with shrink-wrapped software, > >> and private users paid 1% to the FreeBSD Projects funds, then I would > >> be much more inclined to listen to them and help them. > > > >$39.95 (the price of a FreeBSD CDROM) is 5 times the 2% figure you > >cite for most OS's, and twice the figure you cite for BSDI: > > Terry, you must be the only person on the planet who doesn't actually > get in touch with reality on a regular basis :-) > > The FreeBSD project doesn't get $39.95 for each CD sold. We get a > place to run our development machines. That's the point of view from the FreeBSD side of the fence. >From the user side of the fence (which was where I was attempting to come from here), they pay 4%-10% (or 200% of the non-business SCO UNIX cost) to "somebody". You could argue that they are complaining to the wrong folks, but not that they have no right to complain because they haven't paid for it. Anyway, it's a hard thing to fix; I certainly don't have a pat answer for the problem. 8-(. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 15:45:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA12281 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:45:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from becker1.u.washington.edu (spaz@becker1.u.washington.edu [140.142.12.67]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA12274 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:45:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (spaz@localhost) by becker1.u.washington.edu (8.7.5+UW96.10/8.7.3+UW96.10) with SMTP id PAA14153; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:45:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:45:17 -0700 (PDT) From: John Utz To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Jake Hamby , Jeremy Sigmon , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question In-Reply-To: <29588.845495654@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Oh, sh&t!; On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > So the way I see things (and since I'm not a core team person, this is > > just my opinion), FreeBSD 2.2 could easily be released by Christmas, or > > even the end of November. I think if the core team puts the squeeze on > > NFS weirdness seems to be the #1 monster under the bed with 2.2 - I am running the october 6th snap and picked this time to change over my two seats to mount everything from /usr on down. The changeover has gone very slowly and late last night was the first time i tried to install from the server running the snap to the seats. NFS install never worked, and now i can: mount mira.home.here:/usr as downstairs.home.here:/usr but i cant visit anything below the top level! ie i can "see" X11R6 but i cant "see" or execute anything in it! my nfs permissions: /usr -alldirs upstairs downstairs which is unchanged from what i was using to mount mira:/usr as /usr2 on upstairs and downstairs. So is this configuration idiocy on my part? (which would be Good, because that is at least fixable ) or is this symptomatic of the problem mentioned above ( which would be a Really Bad Thing, I cant imagine staying up all night for a few days to revert my network back to 2.1.5 ). Oh, please reward me with a pronouncement of my stupidity! :-) I had thought it was a permission problem and was going to try chmod -R a+rwx on the mira:/usr filesystem.... ( can u say "hackfest" ? ) tnx! john ******************************************************************************* John Utz spaz@u.washington.edu idiocy is the impulse function in the convolution of life From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 16:08:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA13670 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spoon.beta.com (root@[199.165.180.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA13648; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:08:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spoon.beta.com (mcgovern@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spoon.beta.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA19796; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:08:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610162308.TAA19796@spoon.beta.com> To: jkh@freefall.FreeBSD.org cc: hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: QA (or PA?) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:08:08 -0400 From: "Brian J. McGovern" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan, I saw in one of your recent mails that you were looking for people to help check out NFS. I'll be more than happy to lend a hand in stress testing. Also, at this point, I have sufficient hardware to help out with some overall PA (product assurance), and testing, so long as I have the hardware required to do the work. I'll also be happy to manage any "PA Group" that needs to be formulated to do structured testing (assuming others are willing to step up to the plate). I'll also be willing to do some documentation as time permits. The only favor I ask in return is to become part of the "pipe", and have a reasonable amount of contact with the people doing the coding. In the past, when I've tried to help out, I've always gotten short, no to the point answers from some of the coders. Was kind of a hassle. Anyhow, let me know if you're interested, and I'll generate a list of what I can support/test. -Brian From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 16:14:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA13996 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:14:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from admin.cyberenet.net (root@admin.cyberenet.net [204.213.252.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA13966; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:14:01 -0700 (PDT) From: wb2oyc@cyberenet.net Received: from ux1.cyberenet.net by admin.cyberenet.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #7) id m0vDfA0-000O0LC; Wed, 16 Oct 96 19:14 EDT Received: from wb2oyc.ppp.cyberenet.net by ux1.cyberenet.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #8) id m0vDf9t-0006FSC; Wed, 16 Oct 96 19:13 EDT Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 0.4 [p0] on FreeBSD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_=XFMail.0.4.p0.FreeBSD:961016230105:241=_" In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:57:15 -0400 (EDT) To: John Bowman Subject: RE: PPP problem Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, questions@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This message is in MIME format --_=XFMail.0.4.p0.FreeBSD:961016230105:241=_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 16-Oct-96 John Bowman wrote: >>ok... here's the scoop. > John, You may need to do the command "add 0 0 HISADDR" after the connection is established. If you're using the "term" mode of user PPP, then you should see the prompt go to uppercase PPP when the circuit is up. You then need to do the add command above to add the route. If you have the linkup file, it may have the command as well, but term does not seem to read it unless you use the "dial" command (have your own, or modified the ppp.conf). To do that, you need to make sure the statements at the "default" label are appropriate for you, as they are ALWAYS executed when you start user ppp. Paul ---------------------------------- E-Mail: wb2oyc@cyberenet.net Date: 10/16/96 Time: 22:57:15 This message was sent by XF-Mail ---------------------------------- --_=XFMail.0.4.p0.FreeBSD:961016230105:241=_ Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; name=hosts Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64 Content-ID: Content-Description: IyAkSWQ6IGhvc3RzLHYgMS41LjQuNCAxOTk2LzA2LzE3IDA5OjE3OjAzIGpr aCBFeHAgJA0KIw0KIyBIb3N0IERhdGFiYXNlDQojIFRoaXMgZmlsZSBzaG91 bGQgY29udGFpbiB0aGUgYWRkcmVzc2VzIGFuZCBhbGlhc2VzDQojIGZvciBs b2NhbCBob3N0cyB0aGF0IHNoYXJlIHRoaXMgZmlsZS4NCiMgSW4gdGhlIHBy ZXNlbmNlIG9mIHRoZSBkb21haW4gbmFtZSBzZXJ2aWNlIG9yIE5JUywgdGhp cyBmaWxlIG1heQ0KIyBub3QgYmUgY29uc3VsdGVkIGF0IGFsbDsgc2VlIC9l dGMvaG9zdC5jb25mIGZvciB0aGUgcmVzb2x1dGlvbiBvcmRlci4NCiMNCiMN CjEyNy4wLjAuMQkJbG9jYWxob3N0DQowLjAuMC4wCQkJV2VsY29tZS5Uby5N 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id QAA14887 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:30:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA14879 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:30:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA04157; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:26:57 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610162326.QAA04157@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:26:57 -0700 (MST) Cc: jehamby@lightside.com, jsigmon@www.hsc.wvu.edu, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <29588.845495654@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Oct 16, 96 12:54:14 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > 1) More pounding on devfs (is it planned as a standard feature installed > > by sysinstall, or more of an optional feature installed by hand?) > > The latter. AFAIK, Julian still hasn't solved the persistance problem > (though we discussed a number of different ways it could be done > fairly trivially and I don't know what's holding him up) and people running > with it as their /dev still show an unfortunate tendency to crash a lot, > so no. I thought it was supposed to generate devices dynamically based on hardware presence, not persistently based on user fiat. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 16:32:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA15111 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:32:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA14983 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:31:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.7.6/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA09945; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:30:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610162330.QAA09945@root.com> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.root.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Julian Elischer cc: "Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse" , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:57:22 PDT." <32655A42.15FB7483@whistle.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:30:52 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >hopefully that will take about the same amount of time as it would to >make a new release of 2.1.7 or something.. >2.1.6 will exist as a patches only version of 2.1.5 >in the interim. 2.1.6 will be a full release, just like 2.1.5. It will also be the last release on the 2.1.x branch. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 16:42:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA15747 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:42:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from iafnl.es.iaf.nl (uucp@iafnl.es.iaf.nl [195.108.17.20]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA15741 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:42:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by iafnl.es.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA00266 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for FreeBSD-hackers@freebsd.org); Thu, 17 Oct 1996 01:42:08 +0200 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.7.5/8.6.12) id AAA02911 for FreeBSD-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:02:08 +0100 (MET) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199610162302.AAA02911@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: high-capacity tapeloaders To: FreeBSD-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers list) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:02:08 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi there A few days ago the issue of support for DLT 5 & 7 loaders came up. Some months ago there was even a more or less serious discussion about HSM for FreeBSD. I can probably dig up the (.ps) doc files for the Digital DLT loaders (as far as they are in unrestricted distribution). If there is any serious interest in the matter please tell. As a sidestep I can probably also borrow a 5 DLT loader (so 50/100 Gb) to do some testing. I _don't_ have the time to do actual coding, but for a reasonable amount of verification work you can have my support. Thoughts? Wilko _ ____________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl - Arnhem, The Netherlands |/|/ / / /( (_) Do, or do not. There is no 'try' - Yoda -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 16:42:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA15768 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:42:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from iafnl.es.iaf.nl (uucp@iafnl.es.iaf.nl [195.108.17.20]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA15756 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:42:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by iafnl.es.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA00268 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for FreeBSD-hackers@freebsd.org); Thu, 17 Oct 1996 01:42:12 +0200 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.7.5/8.6.12) id AAA02978 for FreeBSD-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:10:27 +0100 (MET) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199610162310.AAA02978@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: volunteering (was: putting 'whining' to work) To: FreeBSD-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers list) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:10:26 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From all the political debate I saw the last couple of days it looks like it's 'flame season' again. To ask a more constructive (I hope) question: - I do have a spare machine sitting here I can very well use for testing an upcoming release/snap. - I also happen to have a Sun IPC sitting here. And my 'production' machine is also on the ethernet connectin all of this. So, lets assume I'd like to help in testing. What would be a workable way to contribute? Would I have to track -current? (which I really don't like to do as a UUCP only site. Remember this is Europe, networking infrastructure is not like to US :-( ) Guessing: I suppose there are more people out there who can do and are willing to do limited scope testing. Thoughts? Wilko _ ____________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl - Arnhem, The Netherlands |/|/ / / /( (_) Do, or do not. There is no 'try' - Yoda -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 16:46:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA16003 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:46:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA15998 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:46:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA04190; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:43:10 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610162343.QAA04190@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 To: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com (Joe Greco) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:43:09 -0700 (MST) Cc: phk@critter.tfs.com, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610162122.QAA28690@brasil.moneng.mei.com> from "Joe Greco" at Oct 16, 96 04:22:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Anyone who volunteers is inherently un(der)qualified. > > If I believed that I could do the job any justice, I might consider > letting myself get roped into it. As it is, I do not have time for > current commitments, and since sol.net is not a revenue generating > entity, I am unlikely to be able to hire anyone to reduce my workload. I'd probably volunteer if I had the time... Jordan has the time because he gets paid for doing the job, and so he doesn't have conflicting commitments. I pretty much don't have the time because I'd insist on ISO 9000 standards for the process; these basically boil down to: 1) Define a process 2) Document the process in a policy manual 3) Follow the process by obeying the policy manual 4) Document the act following the process so that it is provable that the process was followed for each release This would be a full time job... job title: "release engineer". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 16:54:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA16403 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:54:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA16393 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:54:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA04241; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:51:46 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610162351.QAA04241@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question To: julian@whistle.com (Julian Elischer) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:51:46 -0700 (MST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, jehamby@lightside.com, jsigmon@www.hsc.wvu.edu, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <32655CDB.59E2B600@whistle.com> from "Julian Elischer" at Oct 16, 96 03:08:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > and people running > > with it as their /dev still show an unfortunate tendency to crash > > a lot, > > that's actually not true at all. I second this. > > so no. > personally I don't think persistance is of any importance > but I hear the crowd yelling for their placebo's so I will do it some > time.. but it tripples the complexity of the filesystem. I agree with Julian. Persistance is an unnecessary complication. There is no good reason for requiring persistance above abnd beyond the ability to symlink into the thing from elsewhere ()and if the target is gone, it's gone). For permissions and so on, persistance needs to be implemented in the defaults in the device templates. One might arge that there needs to be a user configuration management tools for dealing with all the default permissions assignments, but that's not something required for relese: it's feature creep, and questionable feature creep at that. > > NFS weirdness seems to be the #1 monster under the bed with 2.2 - > > might some of you folks out there with multiple machines be willing to > > assist John and Doug with some stress-testing? If you can find and > > reproduce bugs yourselves, that's even better (e.g. they need someone > > to help play QA team on NFS). > > > we're using 2.2 heavily.. > we have 3 outstanding problems > one of which might be solved but I haven't checked.. I can't do anything about the NFS wierdness without "downgrading" my machines to "-current", something I'm not willing to do. If the FS code could be "upgraded" to "-terry", then I would be able to address most of these problem in short order. I simply can not live without NFS locking and remote build support for the PPC and HP300, and -current just doesn't cut it there. Oh well. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 16:58:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA16648 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:58:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA16643 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:58:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA04264; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:56:01 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610162356.QAA04264@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 To: gclarkii@main.gbdata.com (Gary Clark II) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:56:00 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, phk@critter.tfs.com, brians@mandor.dev.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199610162116.QAA27170@main.gbdata.com> from "Gary Clark II" at Oct 16, 96 04:16:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Terry Lambert wrote: > > > If people who use FreeBSD in a commercial setting paid 2% of what it > > > would have cost them to do the same with shrink-wrapped software, > > > and private users paid 1% to the FreeBSD Projects funds, then I would > > > be much more inclined to listen to them and help them. > > > > $39.95 (the price of a FreeBSD CDROM) is 5 times the 2% figure you > > cite for most OS's, and twice the figure you cite for BSDI: > > This is only from Wallnut Creek. You can find them alot cheaper than > that around. OK, then take 4%-10% and convert it to 2%-5% for $19.95, and for the business user, you still hit your 2% threshold with room to spare. > > SCO > > $400/$40 = 10 > > 1/10 = 10% > Is this the FULL package? Yes. > Development also? Yes. GNU tools, just like FreeBSD. > Unlimted user? Yes... as "unlimited" as SVR4 gets... > Networking? Yes. > > BSDI > > $1000/$40 = 25 > > 1/25 = 4% > How much is the BSDI source license up to now? Who cares; we are talking about users who don't hack the kernel. > How much is a unlimted user license? $1000, last time I checked. > NOTE: Please tell me if BSDI has went back to $1000 source and unlimted user, > I've got a customer running 2.1 I love to have source for. Clearly you are a candidate for "FreeBSD SNAP tester", with your preoccupation with compiling things... 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 17:34:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA18715 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:34:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net ([198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA18704; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA00336; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:33:39 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199610170033.TAA00336@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: CVSup To: jdp@polstra.com (John Polstra) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:33:38 -0500 (EST) Cc: henrich@crh.cl.msu.edu, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, dyson@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610100207.TAA00561@austin.polstra.com> from "John Polstra" at Oct 9, 96 07:07:21 pm Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > John Dyson, does any of this ring a bell with you, in connection with > recent changes to the VM system? > Hmmm... your email was very very delayed to me... The messages that are being spoken about are debug messages, under a debug ifdef. John From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 17:53:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA19471 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:53:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA19466; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:53:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA01091; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:52:58 -0700 (PDT) To: "Brian J. McGovern" cc: jkh@freefall.FreeBSD.org, hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: QA (or PA?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:08:08 EDT." <199610162308.TAA19796@spoon.beta.com> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:52:57 -0700 Message-ID: <1089.845513577@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > The only favor I ask in return is to become part of the "pipe", and > have a reasonable amount of contact with the people doing the coding. In > the past, when I've tried to help out, I've always gotten short, no to the If you start testing in earnest and keep others informed about the state of your testing (and what tools, ad-hoc or otherwise, you're using to do it with), I guarantee you - you won't be able to get OUT of the pipe. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 18:00:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA19848 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:00:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA19840 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:00:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA01136; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:58:58 -0700 (PDT) To: Terry Lambert cc: jehamby@lightside.com, jsigmon@www.hsc.wvu.edu, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:26:57 PDT." <199610162326.QAA04157@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:58:58 -0700 Message-ID: <1134.845513938@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I thought it was supposed to generate devices dynamically based on > hardware presence, not persistently based on user fiat. It's supposed to do BOTH. As the many people who beat me up at USENIX over it said (*me*, and I'm not even the author!): "Fine, make it the default if you like, just make it *act* the same as it always has then! POLA dictates that if I decide to make a symlink or explicitly remove a file, those changes should stay there just as they always did. If I don't actually have to know about it, then I don't care whether I'm running devfs or the old /dev. If I do, and have to alter my administrative behavior, then I care very much." I feel they had a perfectly valid point. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 18:06:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA20152 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:06:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from iidpwr.com ([204.33.177.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA20145 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:06:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.iidpwr.com id <15362>; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:07:01 -0700 Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:08:34 -0700 From: Tony Tam Organization: Imperial Irrigation District X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.1.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: SLIP speed Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <96Oct16.180701pdt.15362@mail.iidpwr.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hackers, Could anybody tell me what is the minimum response time on an SLIP or PPP circuit in order to make TELNET works reliable? -- Yours truly, ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Tony Tam | Tel: 619-339-9454 | | Imperial Irrigation District | FAX: 619-339-9189 | | Imperial, CA 92251, USA | E-Mail: ttam@iidpwr.com | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 18:16:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA20549 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:16:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA20543 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:16:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA01238; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:16:07 -0700 (PDT) To: Wilko Bulte cc: FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD hackers list) Subject: Re: volunteering (was: putting 'whining' to work) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:10:26 BST." <199610162310.AAA02978@yedi.iaf.nl> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:16:07 -0700 Message-ID: <1236.845514967@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > So, lets assume I'd like to help in testing. What would be a > workable way to contribute? Would I have to track -current? That would be the minimum requirement for at least *one* of your machines, e.g. the release builder. What a lot of folks have been doing, and it makes a good sense, is tracking the CVS repository and whenever I say that I'm making a release, they make one too and test from that one. That saves them from having to FTP my entire release across the pond, and they can even make small test alterations to their local release build when working collaboratively with me to solve a problem. If you wanted to be truly labor-saving about it, I guess one person in each network community could build the release and the others could use the single central copy for testing. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 18:18:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA20674 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:18:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA20669 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:18:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id SAA04419 for hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:16:52 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610170116.SAA04419@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: POSIX TEST SUITE To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:16:52 -0700 (MST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I now have a copy of "Official NIST-PCTS:151-2 Version 1.8, 10/1/95", the National Institute of STandards and Technology POSIX Conformance Test Suite. This looks like virtually the same set of test cases I ran against UnixWare 1.x and 2.x for Novell/USG, from what I can see, with only some slight additions here and there. Note that we *should* be able to claim "POSIX conformance" (*NOT* POSIX compliance or certification) if we pass this test suite with no test exceptions. If FreeBSD wants POSIX certification, then FreeBSD Inc. will still have to pay for a certification run at an approved testing laboratory. Obvoiusly, to run the suite requires a working TET/ETET framework, preferrably TET3, available from the X/Open FTP site in the UK. If you have a machine with a working TET/ETET (Test Environment Toolkit or Extended Test Environment Toolkit) and are working on standards compliance for NetBSD or OpenBSD, drop me a line. Otherwise, I probably won't want to hear you requesting a copy from me. 8-). The current test case TET script code and data I have from NIST does not have all of the riders, disclaimers, etc. that the final PCTS release is supposed to have. Because of that, I am unwilling to put this up for general FTP anywhere. When the final NIST release takes place, I would suggest committing the code to the FreeBSD source tree. In preparation, I'd like to suggest committing the TET code that the PCTS requires (documents are online on the NIST WWW site with exact version requirements) to the FreeBSD tree to support a commit of the PCTS test cases themselves and the driver framework they are in when they are officially published by NIST. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 18:22:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA20879 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:22:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA20874 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:22:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id SAA04439; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:19:45 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610170119.SAA04439@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:19:44 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, jehamby@lightside.com, jsigmon@www.hsc.wvu.edu, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <1134.845513938@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Oct 16, 96 05:58:58 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I thought it was supposed to generate devices dynamically based on > > hardware presence, not persistently based on user fiat. > > It's supposed to do BOTH. As the many people who beat me up > at USENIX over it said (*me*, and I'm not even the author!): > > "Fine, make it the default if you like, just make it *act* the same as > it always has then! POLA dictates that if I decide to make a symlink > or explicitly remove a file, those changes should stay there just as > they always did. If I don't actually have to know about it, then I > don't care whether I'm running devfs or the old /dev. If I do, and > have to alter my administrative behavior, then I care very much." > > I feel they had a perfectly valid point. Let them use union mounts... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 18:22:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA20913 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:22:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eel.dataplex.net (eel.dataplex.net [208.2.87.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA20905 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:22:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [208.2.87.4] (cod [208.2.87.4]) by eel.dataplex.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA27900; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:21:55 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: rkw@eel.dataplex.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <32655A42.15FB7483@whistle.com> References: <199610161850.LAA05089@wwwi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:44:44 -0500 To: Julian Elischer From: Richard Wackerbarth Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Julian Elischer replies to Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse: >here is the way I see it.. >2.1.x was needed to give us the time to get 2.2 over some major hurdles. >we did this ONLY because of the users. > >2.2 is close enough now that we are going to 'cut and run' >hopefully that will take about the same amount of time as it would to >make a new release of 2.1.7 or something.. >2.1.6 will exist as a patches only version of 2.1.5 in the interim. That is appropriate development migration. We must progress. However, we should not totally abandon 2.1.x until 2.2.y has PROVEN to to reliable. >when 2.2 goes out the door there will be a feature freeze >for sure.. call it beta or alpha or whatever.. it's the same thing.. IMHO, it's not the same thing if 2.2.0 is as unstable as 2.1.0 was. I would need to wait for 2.1.1 (or will you persist in calling it 2.2.5?). However, I think that calling "beta" level code "release" lowers the opinion that "commercial types" have of our effort. As Terry mentioned in another message, one of the primary reasons to release code under BSD license rather than GPL is the impact that it has on the commercial users. "Release" code should be quality code. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 18:27:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA21094 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:27:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA21089 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:27:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA01297; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:25:54 -0700 (PDT) To: Terry Lambert cc: jehamby@lightside.com, jsigmon@www.hsc.wvu.edu, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:19:44 PDT." <199610170119.SAA04439@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:25:54 -0700 Message-ID: <1295.845515554@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I feel they had a perfectly valid point. > > Let them use union mounts... I see. The "let them eat cake" argument, eh? Well, Marie, we don't have unionfs and the peasants don't have cake. :-) Jordan P.S. To anyone who nonetheless feels compelled to say "We *do* have unionfs! We do! I saw it in /sys/miscfs/union just the other day!" let me just clarify that we haven't had anything resembling a working unionfs for close to 2 years now, and those who were holding their breath for it died of asphyxiation long ago. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 18:36:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA21501 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:36:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from po2.glue.umd.edu (po2.glue.umd.edu [129.2.128.45]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA21496 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:36:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gilligan.eng.umd.edu (gilligan.eng.umd.edu [129.2.103.21]) by po2.glue.umd.edu (8.8.0/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA07017; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:36:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by gilligan.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA25924; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:36:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: gilligan.eng.umd.edu: chuckr owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:36:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@gilligan.eng.umd.edu To: Terry Lambert cc: Gary Clark II , phk@critter.tfs.com, brians@mandor.dev.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-Reply-To: <199610162356.QAA04264@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > If people who use FreeBSD in a commercial setting paid 2% of what it > > > > would have cost them to do the same with shrink-wrapped software, > > > > and private users paid 1% to the FreeBSD Projects funds, then I would > > > > be much more inclined to listen to them and help them. > > > > > > $39.95 (the price of a FreeBSD CDROM) is 5 times the 2% figure you > > > cite for most OS's, and twice the figure you cite for BSDI: > > > > This is only from Wallnut Creek. You can find them alot cheaper than > > that around. > > OK, then take 4%-10% and convert it to 2%-5% for $19.95, and for the > business user, you still hit your 2% threshold with room to spare. > > > > SCO > > > $400/$40 = 10 > > > 1/10 = 10% > > Is this the FULL package? > > Yes. > > > Development also? > > Yes. GNU tools, just like FreeBSD. > > > Unlimted user? > > Yes... as "unlimited" as SVR4 gets... > > > Networking? > > Yes. > > > > BSDI > > > $1000/$40 = 25 > > > 1/25 = 4% > > How much is the BSDI source license up to now? > > Who cares; we are talking about users who don't hack the kernel. > > > How much is a unlimted user license? > > $1000, last time I checked. > > > NOTE: Please tell me if BSDI has went back to $1000 source and unlimted user, > > I've got a customer running 2.1 I love to have source for. > > Clearly you are a candidate for "FreeBSD SNAP tester", with your > preoccupation with compiling things... 8-). Before I used to be part of FreeBSD, I used to pay for Unix. I think Terry hasn't priced Unix lately, because I know _I_ bought the fully decked out versions, am they were one hell of a lot more. The last time I bought them was 4 years ago, I kinda doubt Terry price assertions, on the full model. ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd..edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 9120 Edmonston Ct #302 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and n3lxx, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 2.2 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 18:47:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA21989 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:47:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA21974 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:47:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA09118; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:14:55 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199610170144.LAA09118@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:14:55 +0930 (CST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, jehamby@lightside.com, jsigmon@www.hsc.wvu.edu, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610162326.QAA04157@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Oct 16, 96 04:26:57 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert stands accused of saying: > > > > 1) More pounding on devfs (is it planned as a standard feature installed > > > by sysinstall, or more of an optional feature installed by hand?) > > > > The latter. AFAIK, Julian still hasn't solved the persistance problem > > (though we discussed a number of different ways it could be done > > fairly trivially and I don't know what's holding him up) and people running > > with it as their /dev still show an unfortunate tendency to crash a lot, > > so no. > > I thought it was supposed to generate devices dynamically based on > hardware presence, not persistently based on user fiat. The issue with persistence is that not everyone is happy with the default permissions puked up by the drivers. Our embedded boxes, for example, want /dev/io 0660, which would be insane for a production system. In essence, the "persistence" for devfs needs to hold : - ownership - permissions - symlinks IMHO, there's nothing there that can't be achieved with a script argument to mount_devfs, although it could be argued that because the devfs has to be mounted before the script could be processed there is a potential window of vulnerability there. > Terry Lambert -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 18:52:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA22288 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:52:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA22282 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA09591; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:18:54 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199610170148.LAA09591@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:18:54 +0930 (CST) Cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, phk@critter.tfs.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610162343.QAA04190@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Oct 16, 96 04:43:09 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert stands accused of saying: > > I pretty much don't have the time because I'd insist on ISO 9000 > standards for the process; these basically boil down to: > > 1) Define a process > 2) Document the process in a policy manual > 3) Follow the process by obeying the policy manual > 4) Document the act following the process so that it is provable > that the process was followed for each release > > This would be a full time job... job title: "release engineer". My documented process now requires me to laugh uncontrollably. ha. (Sorry Scott) > Terry Lambert -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 19:29:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA24420 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:29:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wwwi.com (root@voltimand.csd.wwwi.com [199.1.92.12]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA24407 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cornelius (cornelius.csd.wwwi.com [199.1.92.20]) by wwwi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA05876 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:28:27 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:28:27 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199610170228.TAA05876@wwwi.com> X-Sender: jdw@pop.wwwi.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org From: "Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse" Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sorry if this shows up twice... The local phone company knocked us off the net for most of the day. That's what I get for being obnoxious in public, no doubt. At 01:03 PM 10/16/96 -0700, you wrote: >I think now you yourself are starting to become infected with flamer's >disease It is highly contagious. As I get older I'm building up a tolerance, but I'm clearly not immune just yet. I apologize to any of the FreeBSD developers whom I may have offended. That was not my intent. Without you, my life would be harder than it is, and I thank you for all of your hard work. The only thing I can add to Richard's comment is this, devoid of the rhetoric: You guys have done a lot of great work to get to FreeBSD-stable, and I use and love it. However, you've done a whole lot more great work since then, which a lot of people can't use right now. Because your work is so good, it's a shame that it's not available to more people. That's all. Per Jordan's request, I'll go away and leave it alone now. Later, Jeff From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 19:30:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA24569 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:30:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA24519; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:29:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA09992; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:59:44 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199610170229.LAA09992@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) To: sos@FreeBSD.org Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:59:44 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, jdp@polstra.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610161218.OAA22084@ra.dkuug.dk> from "sos@FreeBSD.org" at Oct 16, 96 02:18:32 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk sos@FreeBSD.org stands accused of saying: > > Ahh, yes, I misunderstood you, WHEN we have this in place it will > work (of cause), but I have allready some FreeBSD ELF bins which dont > know :) (Yeah I know I can recompile them). > What I meant was that default is native, not something else... Understood. I just think that the default should be more intelligent. > > Please, no. If it is unidentifiable, it is by definition not a FreeBSD > > ELF binary. I stand by "if it can't be identified, feed it to the > > most recently-loaded ELF interpreter and pray". > > Gee, then we will have to keep track on what was loaded last :( Just walk to the end of interp_list[] and throw it at whichever interpreter is lurking there. Perhaps have the code which exterminates such a process if it goes wrong be a little more forthcoming with why, if having a useful error message would help. > > In the short term, this will have the happy side effect that static > > Linux ELF binaries will suddenly magically work, which is a Good Thing. > > IF, the linux emu is loaded, and libs are installed, and you are > lucky to have the right versions of them :( Ok, "modulo the usual Linux crap". Note that the path-detecting code probably wants to understand /compat/netbsd, which hadn't occurred to me before. NetBSD people lurking - is there a reliable way to discriminate a static NetBSD ELF i386 binary from any other static i386 ELF binary? > > > markelf, brandelf or just plan elf (fixelf sounds a bit harsh :) ) > > > > Heh. "smurf" > > Didn't think of that one myself :) I considered "squish" too, but thought it was a little too obscure. I sprayed my breakfast all over my desk when I read "elfspay" 8) I can just see the example now : "elfspay -t ogrampay" > Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 20:25:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA28795 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:25:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.50.29]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA28788; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:25:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA25575; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610170313.UAA25575@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Michael Smith Cc: sos@freebsd.org, jdp@polstra.com, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:13:36 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:59:44 +0930 (CST) Michael Smith wrote: > Ok, "modulo the usual Linux crap". Note that the path-detecting code > probably wants to understand /compat/netbsd, which hadn't occurred to me > before. NetBSD does this ... /emul/freebsd :-) > NetBSD people lurking - is there a reliable way to discriminate a static > NetBSD ELF i386 binary from any other static i386 ELF binary? Not that I know of, no. The last time I discussed this issue with Linus (hmm, I think I saved the thread somewhere...), he seemed to think that the best way to deal with that was to make the BSD ABIs match Linux. I.e. he didn't seem to care to much that it was a problem. One of this suggestions was to watch for the first call to sbrk(2), since "many" (his word) Linux crt0.o's do this before any other system calls. "Matching ABIs" is a particular problem for NetBSD, of course, because the system call switch, errno values, stat structures, etc. a different for all of Linux's supported architectures. "Whatever." After a week-long e-mail exchange, nothing really useful came out of it at all... Two ideas were discussed among the NetBSD developers: (1) Use some of the unused bytes at the end of e_ident[]. I.e. have something like: \177 E L F N B S D If some OS chooses not to look at the entire e_ident[] field, well, tough :-) (2) Use a special notes section. I think we pretty much settled on (1), since it's possible to strip out all of the section headers, and still have a runnable executable. (I think; correct me if I'm wrong. :-) (The thread was mostly about "So, now that NetBSD/alpha is switching to ELF64, how can we find a sane way to differentiate between NetBSD/alpha and Linux/alpha ELF64 executables...) Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: 408.866.1912 NAS: M/S 258-6 Work: 415.604.0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: 415.428.6939 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 20:33:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA29231 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:33:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (austin.polstra.com [206.213.73.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA29225; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:33:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (jdp@localhost) by austin.polstra.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA25901; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:33:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610170333.UAA25901@austin.polstra.com> To: Jason Thorpe cc: Michael Smith , sos@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:13:36 PDT." <199610170313.UAA25575@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:33:09 -0700 From: John Polstra Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Two ideas were discussed among the NetBSD developers: > > (1) Use some of the unused bytes at the end of e_ident[]. ... > (2) Use a special notes section. > > I think we pretty much settled on (1), since it's possible to strip > out all of the section headers, and still have a runnable executable. > (I think; correct me if I'm wrong. :-) OK, you're wrong. :-) The notes section gets an entry in the program header, which must remain for the program to be executable. It's a moot point anyway, since it looks like we (FreeBSD) are going with (1). John -- John Polstra jdp@polstra.com John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA "Self-knowledge is always bad news." -- John Barth From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 20:37:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA29395 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:37:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA29390 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:37:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id TAA04604; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:35:38 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610170235.TAA04604@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:35:38 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, jehamby@lightside.com, jsigmon@www.hsc.wvu.edu, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <1295.845515554@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Oct 16, 96 06:25:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > I feel they had a perfectly valid point. > > > > Let them use union mounts... > > I see. The "let them eat cake" argument, eh? Well, Marie, we > don't have unionfs and the peasants don't have cake. :-) > > Jordan > > P.S. To anyone who nonetheless feels compelled to say "We *do* have > unionfs! We do! I saw it in /sys/miscfs/union just the other day!" > let me just clarify that we haven't had anything resembling a working > unionfs for close to 2 years now, and those who were holding their > breath for it died of asphyxiation long ago. I have unionfs. Commit my changes, and you can have unionfs too. Actually I wasn't thinking of the Marie Antionette "let them eat cake" argument, I was thinking of your "if they want it, let them write code and submit it for core team approval" argument. If people really wanted persistance as badly as you claim they do, they would be willing to write code (according to that argument, anyway). Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 20:40:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA29560 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:40:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA29553 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:40:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id TAA04611; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:37:17 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610170237.TAA04611@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 To: chuckr@glue.umd.edu (Chuck Robey) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:37:17 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, gclarkii@main.gbdata.com, phk@critter.tfs.com, brians@mandor.dev.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Chuck Robey" at Oct 16, 96 09:36:29 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Before I used to be part of FreeBSD, I used to pay for Unix. I think > Terry hasn't priced Unix lately, because I know _I_ bought the fully > decked out versions, am they were one hell of a lot more. The last time I > bought them was 4 years ago, I kinda doubt Terry price assertions, on the > full model. Several years ago, BSDI was cheap and SCO was expensive. SCO pricing had dropped. So has Solaris pricing. As for developement systems, there's always GNU. You aren't going to get better than GNU for FreeBSD anyway, so why insist on it elsewhere? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 20:42:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA29704 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:42:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA29699 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id TAA04631; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:41:42 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610170241.TAA04631@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:41:42 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, jehamby@lightside.com, jsigmon@www.hsc.wvu.edu, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610170144.LAA09118@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Oct 17, 96 11:14:55 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I thought it was supposed to generate devices dynamically based on > > hardware presence, not persistently based on user fiat. > > The issue with persistence is that not everyone is happy with the > default permissions puked up by the drivers. Our embedded boxes, for > example, want /dev/io 0660, which would be insane for a production > system. > > In essence, the "persistence" for devfs needs to hold : > > - ownership > - permissions > - symlinks > > IMHO, there's nothing there that can't be achieved with a script > argument to mount_devfs, although it could be argued that because the > devfs has to be mounted before the script could be processed there is > a potential window of vulnerability there. Not if you do it before you start the external services, like getty. In any case, you could "fix" the devfs away from the defaults using a tool to manipulate the data portion of the kernel -- assuming you were interested enough in persistance to write the tool. Alternately, you could use union mounts -- assuming you were interested enough in persistance to write the code. Julian should not have to "buy" devfs's way into FreeBSD via appeasement; It didn't work for Walpole in 1939, it won't work for Elisher in 1996. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 20:48:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA29988 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:48:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from itchy.mindspring.com (itchy.mindspring.com [204.180.128.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA29981 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:48:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ms039149.mindspring.com (ip203.mission-viejo.ca.interramp.com [38.12.83.203]) by itchy.mindspring.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA18310; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:48:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19961017034637.2d47df30@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jrasins@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:46:37 -0700 To: rkw@dataplex.net (Richard Wackerbarth) From: "John W. Rasins" Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 02:25 PM 10/16/1996 -0600, you wrote: (snip) > >Remember -- Image is everything. Image is nothing! Obey your thirst! ((c) Coca-Cola Bottling Company I believe) Whew! This thread needs to lighten up. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 21:28:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA02118 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:28:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA02092 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:27:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA15646; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:23:30 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:23:30 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199610170423.WAA15646@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: Terry Lambert Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), jehamby@lightside.com, jsigmon@www.hsc.wvu.edu, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question In-Reply-To: <199610170235.TAA04604@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <1295.845515554@time.cdrom.com> <199610170235.TAA04604@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > argument, I was thinking of your "if they want it, let them write code > and submit it for core team approval" argument. > > If people really wanted persistance as badly as you claim they do, they > would be willing to write code (according to that argument, anyway). Ahh, so that's the way it works. OK, here goes: I'm going to be committing code to the FreeBSD source tree that will enable new and wonderful laptop support. This will allow most laptops to work wonderfully, modulo a few bugs, but it's a step in the right direction and it's 'the direction' we need to take in FreeBSD. However, it will certainly break existing support for most desktop users which user serial/network/disk device drivers. However, if it's important for them to have things working the way they've expect to in the past, they should either replace their desktop machines with fast laptops or submit code to fix the problems with the existing code-base that doesn't fit into the new 'swappable' system." Needless to say, this attitude won't buy me any friends. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 21:29:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA02216 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from misery.sdf.com ([204.244.210.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA02201 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:29:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tom@localhost) by misery.sdf.com (8.8.0/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA03365; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:50:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:49:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Samplonius To: Tony Tam cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SLIP speed In-Reply-To: <96Oct16.180701pdt.15362@mail.iidpwr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Tony Tam wrote: > Hackers, > > Could anybody tell me what is the minimum response time on an SLIP > or PPP circuit in order to make TELNET works reliable? > > -- > Yours truly, Well, telnet should be reliable with any functioning network. Any network that gives you better than 300ms round-trip time as reported by ping, is pretty usable with telnet, anything under 200ms is best. Round-trip time just for an idle 28.8k slip/ppp modem link is about 160ms. Modems are just dogs for latency. An idle 56k line is around 30ms rtt. Tom From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 22:12:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA04522 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:12:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA04516 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:12:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from current1.whistle.com (current1.whistle.com [207.76.205.22]) by alpo.whistle.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA00909; Sun, 13 Oct 1996 22:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3265BE95.167EB0E7@whistle.com> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:05:25 -0700 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nate Williams CC: Terry Lambert , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , jehamby@lightside.com, jsigmon@www.hsc.wvu.edu, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question References: <1295.845515554@time.cdrom.com> <199610170235.TAA04604@phaeton.artisoft.com> <199610170423.WAA15646@rocky.mt.sri.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nate Williams wrote: > > > I'm going to be committing code to the FreeBSD source tree that will > enable new and wonderful laptop support. This will allow most laptops > to work wonderfully, modulo a few bugs, but it's a step in the right > direction and it's 'the direction' we need to take in FreeBSD. > > However, it will certainly break existing support for most desktop users > which user serial/network/disk device drivers. However, if it's > important for them to have things working the way they've expect to in > the past, they should either replace their desktop machines with fast > laptops or submit code to fix the problems with the existing code-base > that doesn't fit into the new 'swappable' system." > > Needless to say, this attitude won't buy me any friends. I have always said that devfs is an option and I think it should be the default option, because 98% of people don't change the permissions on devices, but I would be happy with it just being an easily available Non default option. I think that 90% of the remaining people could be satisfied with an rc.devs to change permissions of devices that are in some way special. that leaves 10% of 2% (0.2%) of maniacs who have to run /dev on their root partition using ufs. They of course don't see their new devices and slices show up as needed, and they don't automatically have the right number of ptys, and when they add a pc-card and run the lkm, they also have to make all the devices and they have old crap floating around in /dev for devices they long since threw away etc. etc. etc. but then that's how it is now so they should be happy. of course they also can't use the new volume manager or the bsd streams layers either because those REQUIRE a dynamic device interface, but they didn't have those things before either, so they should still be happy. personally I think that If it's insisted that I add persistance before it becomes generally available then it'll never happen. I need it to be in use with a wider audience or it'll never getthe bugs shaken out of it enough for me to go much further with it.. BTW I just discovered a bug with it that I am trying to figure out.. mount -t devfs devfs /mnt mount /mnt/wd0e /mnt2 umount /mnt2 [process hangs] I know what it is but it's a really tricky problem that I HOPED would not happen because it's a bitch to get around.. it's incompatibel in some ways to have one vnode for all instances of a device (e.g. /dev/tty and /chroot/dev/tty) AND solve this problem.. because if they have the same vnode, Which mount point does it reference? and it must reference ONE of them, because mount hangs the super block off it and oh well, I guess I can solve it with another level of indirection.. you can solve ANYTHING with enough levels of indirection... julian From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 22:40:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA06993 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.230.177]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA06987; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:40:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA01551; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:39:41 +0200 (MET DST) To: Karl Denninger cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), jdw@wwwi.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:21:17 CDT." <199610162121.QAA18113@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:39:40 +0200 Message-ID: <1549.845530780@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199610162121.QAA18113@Jupiter.Mcs.Net>, Karl Denninger writes: >I *LIKE* FreeBSD. Enough to work on fixing the ONE serious problem that I >have with the release -- once we have that FIXED then every machine at >MCSNet will end up running it in very, very short order. > >We beat the SNOT out of this OS. It works. > Thanks Karl! -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 22:43:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA07101 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:43:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA07096 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:43:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA01398; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:42:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610170542.WAA01398@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: "Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse" cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:50:26 PDT." <199610161850.LAA05089@wwwi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:42:55 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of "Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse" : > At 08:09 PM 10/16/96 +0200, you wrote: > > "CONTRIBUTE, PAY or SHUT UP! (in order of my preference)" > > Then you shouldn't call it FreeBSD, because it isn't. You should > call it "MembersOnlyBSD." > > I was under the mistaken impression that the core team might be > starting to forget that there are users out there. You have made > it clear that in fact it is because you are pretending you don't > have users. > > Later, > Jeff > Hi Jeff, It is a matter of what we can do and the resources that we have available -- that is all . Cheers, Amancio p From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 22:44:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA07226 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:44:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.230.177]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA07217; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:44:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA01586; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:42:54 +0200 (MET DST) To: Julian Elischer cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Jake Hamby , Jeremy Sigmon , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:08:27 PDT." <32655CDB.59E2B600@whistle.com> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:42:53 +0200 Message-ID: <1584.845530973@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <32655CDB.59E2B600@whistle.com>, Julian Elischer writes: >personally I don't think persistance is of any importance >but I hear the crowd yelling for their placebo's so I will do it some >time.. but it tripples the complexity of the filesystem. That's not true. Layer it on top of a normal filesystem, use the (empty) files down there to store the modes & ownerships. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 22:49:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA07452 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:49:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.aros.net (mailhub.aros.net [205.164.111.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA07446 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:49:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fluffy.aros.net (fluffy.aros.net [205.164.111.2]) by mailhub.aros.net (8.7.6/Unknown) with ESMTP id XAA06674; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:49:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fluffy.aros.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fluffy.aros.net (8.7.6/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA00642; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:49:42 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199610170549.XAA00642@fluffy.aros.net> To: Josh MacDonald Subject: Re: 2.2-961006-SNAP keyboard lockup cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:07:09 PDT." <199610161907.MAA08995@paris.CS.Berkeley.EDU> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:49:41 -0600 From: Dave Andersen Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Under -current, supped just after 100696-SNAP, I experience these quite frequently when using syscons. The problem is actually fairly easy to replicate by rapidly switching between vty's on the console - if I keep it up enough, the keyboard will lock solid. I haven't determined if it only happens if I hit certain combinations of keys or not, but that's the best way to duplicate it. It's never happened under X, most likely because I'm never a) switching vty's or b) hitting the certain keys that cause it to lock. It's not possible to get the system to reset the keyboard short of a reboot; swapping in a different keyboard with all the associated risks to the motherboard doesn't cause it to magically cure itself. (Tyan tomcat II, dual P133 (not using SMP on it right now, I actually use the system for work. :), 64MB, mostly PCI, with a soundblaster awe-32), chicony KB-2923 keyboard). > Though keyboard lockups have been much less frequent than they were in > August, I just experienced another, similar, lockup. If a fix is in > place, perhaps this means it hasn't completely fixed the problem. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Oct 16 22:52:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA07588 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:52:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA07583 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:52:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from current1.whistle.com (current1.whistle.com [207.76.205.22]) by alpo.whistle.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA01147; Sun, 13 Oct 1996 22:48:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3265C883.41C67EA6@whistle.com> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:47:47 -0700 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Poul-Henning Kamp CC: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Jake Hamby , Jeremy Sigmon , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question References: <1584.845530973@critter.tfs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > In message <32655CDB.59E2B600@whistle.com>, Julian Elischer writes: > > >personally I don't think persistance is of any importance > >but I hear the crowd yelling for their placebo's so I will do it some > >time.. but it tripples the complexity of the filesystem. > > That's not true. Layer it on top of a normal filesystem, use the > (empty) files down there to store the modes & ownerships. that's what I said.. it tripples the complexity.. > > -- > Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. > http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. > whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. > Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 00:07:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA10618 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:07:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.230.252]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA10612 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:07:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA02024 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:54:31 +0200 (MET DST) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: enum considered bad ? Reply-to: phk@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:54:30 +0200 Message-ID: <2022.845535270@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I've noticed that "enum" is hardly ever used in C programs, is this because people consider it a bad idea or because they havn't really got the swing of it ? -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 00:07:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA10630 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:07:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.230.252]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA10617; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:07:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA01851; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:41:17 +0200 (MET DST) To: "Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse" cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:28:27 PDT." <199610170228.TAA05876@wwwi.com> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:41:17 +0200 Message-ID: <1849.845534477@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199610170228.TAA05876@wwwi.com>, "Jeffrey D. Wheelhouse" writes: >The only thing I can add to Richard's comment is this, devoid of the >rhetoric: > >You guys have done a lot of great work to get to FreeBSD-stable, and >I use and love it. However, you've done a whole lot more great work >since then, which a lot of people can't use right now. Because your >work is so good, it's a shame that it's not available to more people. >That's all. And if 2.2 is anything like what I beliv it will be, they can jump right into that with no regrets so everybody will be happy. :-) -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 00:07:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA10657 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:07:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.230.252]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA10646; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:07:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA01758; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:28:10 +0200 (MET DST) To: Tony Tam cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SLIP speed In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:08:34 PDT." <96Oct16.180701pdt.15362@mail.iidpwr.com> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:28:09 +0200 Message-ID: <1756.845533689@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <96Oct16.180701pdt.15362@mail.iidpwr.com>, Tony Tam writes: > >Hackers, > > Could anybody tell me what is the minimum response time on an SLIP >or PPP circuit in order to make TELNET works reliable? About 1 minute I belive. If you mean "acceptable" you want to get down into the 400ms regime. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 00:07:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA10669 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:07:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.230.252]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA10653; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:07:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA01778; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:31:35 +0200 (MET DST) To: Terry Lambert cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: POSIX TEST SUITE In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:16:52 PDT." <199610170116.SAA04419@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:31:34 +0200 Message-ID: <1776.845533894@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199610170116.SAA04419@phaeton.artisoft.com>, Terry Lambert writes: >When the final NIST release takes place, I would suggest committing >the code to the FreeBSD source tree. >In preparation, I'd like to suggest committing the TET code that the Absolutely, this sounds like to great ports to have. devel/posix devel/tet ? -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 00:10:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA10880 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:10:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.230.252]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA10740; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:08:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA01791; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:34:35 +0200 (MET DST) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Terry Lambert , jehamby@lightside.com, jsigmon@www.hsc.wvu.edu, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:25:54 PDT." <1295.845515554@time.cdrom.com> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:34:34 +0200 Message-ID: <1789.845534074@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <1295.845515554@time.cdrom.com>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: >> > I feel they had a perfectly valid point. >> >> Let them use union mounts... > >I see. The "let them eat cake" argument, eh? Well, Marie, we >don't have unionfs and the peasants don't have cake. :-) No no no! He's right. Devfs should stack on top of a regular directory, and pick up perms,owners and groups from there. They way it works is this: jkh$ cp /dev/null foo DEVFS: "null" do we have that ? yes, Lets ask below then: UFS: "null" ? yes, uid=0,gid=2,mode=0666,bla bla bla DEVFS: OK, "null", uid=0,gid=2,mode=0666 -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 00:14:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA11040 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:14:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.230.252]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA11007; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:13:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA02071; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:11:19 +0200 (MET DST) To: Julian Elischer cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Jake Hamby , Jeremy Sigmon , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:47:47 PDT." <3265C883.41C67EA6@whistle.com> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:11:19 +0200 Message-ID: <2069.845536279@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <3265C883.41C67EA6@whistle.com>, Julian Elischer writes: >Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >> >> In message <32655CDB.59E2B600@whistle.com>, Julian Elischer writes: >> >> >personally I don't think persistance is of any importance >> >but I hear the crowd yelling for their placebo's so I will do it some >> >time.. but it tripples the complexity of the filesystem. >> >> That's not true. Layer it on top of a normal filesystem, use the >> (empty) files down there to store the modes & ownerships. >that's what I said.. >it tripples the complexity.. Look at nullfs -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 00:15:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA11096 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:15:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ra.dkuug.dk (ra.dkuug.dk [193.88.44.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA11088; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:15:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ra.dkuug.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA01884; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:15:26 +0200 Message-Id: <199610170715.JAA01884@ra.dkuug.dk> Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) To: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:15:26 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, sos@freebsd.org, jdp@polstra.com, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610170313.UAA25575@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> from "Jason Thorpe" at Oct 16, 96 08:13:36 pm From: sos@freebsd.org Reply-to: sos@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Jason Thorpe who wrote: > > After a week-long e-mail exchange, nothing really useful came out of > it at all... Two ideas were discussed among the NetBSD developers: > > (1) Use some of the unused bytes at the end of e_ident[]. > I.e. have something like: > > \177 E L F N B S D > > If some OS chooses not to look at the entire e_ident[] > field, well, tough :-) This is what I just added support for in FreeBSD, we currently "know" brands "FreeBSD" & "Linux", and there is a util brandelf to set the bits if need be. > (2) Use a special notes section. Probably cleaner, but not feasible on allready linked binaries. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team So much code to hack -- so little time. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 00:38:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA12599 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:38:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.50.29]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA12593; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:38:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA27718; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:26:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610170726.AAA27718@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: sos@freebsd.org Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, jdp@polstra.com, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:26:46 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:15:26 +0200 (MET DST) sos@freebsd.org wrote: > This is what I just added support for in FreeBSD, we currently > "know" brands "FreeBSD" & "Linux", and there is a util brandelf > to set the bits if need be. This should be done by the regular toolchain, of course. Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: 408.866.1912 NAS: M/S 258-6 Work: 415.604.0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: 415.428.6939 From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 00:59:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA13381 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:59:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.50.29]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA13376; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA28017; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:48:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610170748.AAA28017@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: phk@freebsd.org Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: enum considered bad ? Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:48:09 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:54:30 +0200 Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > I've noticed that "enum" is hardly ever used in C programs, is this > because people consider it a bad idea or because they havn't really > got the swing of it ? Actually, I happen to like it... I typically do stuff like: typedef enum { VAL1, VAL2, VAL3, VAL4, } foo_t; foo_t foo __P((int)); ...or whatever... The point is, I don't care want the return values are, so long as they're unique. In cases where I care about the value, or, more specifically, the _size_ of the type, I use #define'd constants and more explicit types. Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: 408.866.1912 NAS: M/S 258-6 Work: 415.604.0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: 415.428.6939 From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 01:00:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA13522 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 01:00:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA13193 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:55:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.7.5/8.6.12) id KAA17895; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:51:11 +0300 (EET DST) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:51:11 +0300 (EET DST) From: Narvi To: Amancio Hasty cc: dg@Root.COM, Michael Smith , Joe Greco , jdw@wwwi.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-Reply-To: <199610161113.EAA04958@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > I think that it will be wise to release 2.2 soon. It is getting uncomfortable > for both users or ISPs and developers. Soon? If something even remotedly stable is to be released, then IMHO a new branch should be created soon and 2.2.0-prerelease-stable put up for testing for say ~1.5 - 2 months? If people can say yeah, it's stable, it has been out for quite some time then we can make the release and be comfort - most people will see long uptimes and the image of FreeBSD as a stable OS will remain. Sander > > Amancio > > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 01:03:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA13762 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 01:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ra.dkuug.dk (ra.dkuug.dk [193.88.44.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA13749; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 01:03:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ra.dkuug.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA02587; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:03:32 +0200 Message-Id: <199610170803.KAA02587@ra.dkuug.dk> Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) To: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:03:32 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: sos@freebsd.org, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, jdp@polstra.com, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610170726.AAA27718@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> from "Jason Thorpe" at Oct 17, 96 00:26:46 am From: sos@freebsd.org Reply-to: sos@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Jason Thorpe who wrote: > > On Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:15:26 +0200 (MET DST) > sos@freebsd.org wrote: > > > This is what I just added support for in FreeBSD, we currently > > "know" brands "FreeBSD" & "Linux", and there is a util brandelf > > to set the bits if need be. > > This should be done by the regular toolchain, of course. It will be, John Polstra (our ELF guru :) ), will put in the support for it, we just need brandelf to "brand" binaries coming from the unwashed masses... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team So much code to hack -- so little time. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 01:13:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA14503 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 01:13:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA14492 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 01:13:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.7.5/8.6.12) id LAA17972; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:06:21 +0300 (EET DST) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:06:21 +0300 (EET DST) From: Narvi To: Joe Greco cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-Reply-To: <199610161348.IAA27595@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hmmm... I feel I trimmed the cc: list a bit. On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Joe Greco wrote: > > We're still talking about it. Right now we still intend to release a 2.1.6 > > in December, but we are also considering releasing 2.2 at about the same time. > > With all the nifty stuff like SMP, we want to move along towards 3.0. No > > concrete decisions have yet been made, but we all would like to see the > > technology in -current enjoy wider use and this plan seems to have wide > > acceptence. > > Hi David, > > This would be, IMHO, an excellent path to follow. 2.1.5 (to become 2.1.6) > is very obviously a highly polished product, and for many of us would > continue to be the "OS of choice" for quite some time, for those demanding, > high availability applications.. There are some problems. One of these are ports. Some of ports (SSLeay for example) do not compile under -stable as they require DES code present only in -current, all new ports are for -current only and some of them won't work on -stable as they depend on say TCL being present in the system. -stable is not only dead it is even buried. And a new release on -stable will be for only very specific uses and most people perhaps even wouldn't want it. They just may require all those user programs that are only for 2.2.x. > > On the other hand, some of us are anxious enough to actually TRY 2.2R that > we will trade stability for new features. I myself have some boxes that > sit in "critical but redundant" positions and would certainly be willing > to put 2.2R to the test - IF something were available. > > I mean, I did run a production news server on 2.0R, and I am quite familiar > with the problems of running a "mostly stable" release. I did not mind the > weekly freakouts or lockups too much, as I knew my problem reports would > help make 2.0.5R a more reliable release. > > But I am not willing to try to track -current as it is just really hard to > do (I'm one guy, I don't have the hours in the day as it is)... and the > SNAP releases seem to be both bad and good... I have been tempted to look > at Karl's MCS releases. If I could get a -current that was not so subject > to such reliability variances, I would certainly run it. > > That's why the 2.2R thing seems like such a good idea. If a new "-stable" > is created at 2.2R, and "-current" goes its merry way on to 3.0R, that > gives people like me a good solid point at which to start, and a path to > follow for the next year or two while 2.2.XR becomes as stable as 2.1.5R. 3.0R? wouldn't it be a too high increment in the version number? In that way we will soon be at FreeBSD 4.3 (and 4.4) release. How about 2.4? It would allow enough of growing place for 2.2 to evolve into ultrastable 2.3 (if it stays around for that long). As we seem to be using numbers of the x.y.z kind we should think too much about x. Or are we going to undergo some *MAJOR* change? Sander > > It sounds like something along these lines is just exactly what is needed. > > Thanks for the info, > > ... JG > From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 01:15:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA14626 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 01:15:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA14605 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 01:15:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.7.5/8.6.12) id LAA18015; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:13:21 +0300 (EET DST) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:13:21 +0300 (EET DST) From: Narvi To: Joe Greco cc: Richard Wackerbarth , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-Reply-To: <199610161540.KAA27811@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Joe Greco wrote: > > >> I generally agree with your approach. However I would suggest that not > > >> 2.1.5, but 2.1.x is the appropriate one for production. > > > > My point here is that, although few changes have been made, we should > > encourage people to upgrade from 2.1.5R to the present "-stable". > > I can see arguments both ways. I do not disagree with the idea, but > for people to upgrade from 2.1.5R to 2.1.6R with a very small delta > (particularly if it consists of changes that do not affect them) may > not make sense. I do not particularly care, I simply want to see some > variant of this "well tested" branch to stay around until there is a > 2.2 based "well tested" branch. Unless ports (that do not depend on some fancy kernel internal present only in -current) are also brought over, tcl is imported, etc. I personally see very little idea in making 2.1.6. The anti-syn-attack pacthes and other goodies just aren't enough. > [snip] > > >But... when it comes right down to it, I don't care too much about how > > >it's numbered, I just want to see something happen. :-) > > > > I do think that numbering has some impact on the perception that the public > > has of the product. > > Sure it does, but I do not want to see FreeBSD inventing numbering schemes > simply to impress the public. Are we really going through something *MAJOR* that we must have a greate change in the version number? Or is it just lkike Linux - so many new features have been added - lets jump to 2.0? Sander > > ... JG > From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 01:33:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA15960 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 01:33:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA15953 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 01:33:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA01189; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 01:31:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610170831.BAA01189@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Narvi cc: dg@Root.COM, Michael Smith , Joe Greco , jdw@wwwi.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:51:11 +0300." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 01:31:44 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of Narvi : > > > On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > > > I think that it will be wise to release 2.2 soon. It is getting uncomfortab le > > for both users or ISPs and developers. > > Soon? If something even remotedly stable is to be released, then IMHO a > new branch should be created soon and 2.2.0-prerelease-stable put up for > testing for say ~1.5 - 2 months? If people can say yeah, it's stable, it > has been out for quite some time then we can make the release and be > comfort - most people will see long uptimes and the image of FreeBSD as a > stable OS will remain. > > Sander > I got to admit that 2.2 is not that stable at the moment : no crashes over here. But of course it needs more exposure as a "stable" release branch my point is that is not currently considered so and hence it will continue to be so till the core teams deems that their goals have been met and the "branch" is considerd "stable". At any rate, this is not a big issue with me since I don't have a 2.1.5 system nor the personal resources to support 2.1.5 8) Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 01:38:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA16479 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 01:38:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA16473; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 01:38:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id JAA05315; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:04:02 +0100 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199610170804.JAA05315@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Re: enum considered bad ? To: phk@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:04:01 +0100 (MET) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <2022.845535270@critter.tfs.com> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at Oct 17, 96 08:54:11 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I've noticed that "enum" is hardly ever used in C programs, is this > because people consider it a bad idea or because they havn't really > got the swing of it ? isn't it more a compatibility issue with old compilers which do not support it ? Luigi ==================================================================== Luigi Rizzo Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione email: luigi@iet.unipi.it Universita' di Pisa tel: +39-50-568533 via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy) fax: +39-50-568522 http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ ==================================================================== From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 01:44:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA16900 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 01:44:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dog.farm.org (dog.farm.org [207.111.140.47]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA16893 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 01:44:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dk@localhost) by dog.farm.org (8.7.5/dk#3) id BAA01012 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 01:48:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 01:48:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Dmitry Kohmanyuk Message-Id: <199610170848.BAA01012@dog.farm.org> Subject: Re: Excellent host SYN-attack fix for BSD hosts (fwd) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <199610141726.NAA20351@neon.ingenia.com> Organization: FARM Computing Association Reply-To: dk+@ua.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mike Shaver (shaver@neon.ingenia.ca) wrote: > Thus spake Michael Dillon: > > window size > > and any initial data is discarded; > This, of course, breaks the TCP specification, in case anyone still > cares about that. (Few do, I fear.) Hmm... you can ACK only to position 0, assuming some weird router fragmented the packet along the way and then eaten all but the first fragment. Then the client would retransmit. (Well, the client could rely on minimal MTU...) > (I seem to recall someone saying that it made it impossible to talk to > any machine that did T/TCP, as well.) You can easily distinguish T/TCP by looking for CC option set. Also, since you normally bybass TCP 3-way handshake with T/TCP, there is no reason to prevent SYN floods. (Here comes the issue of T/TCP cache state floods.) From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 01:47:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA17095 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 01:47:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asstdc.scgt.oz.au (root@asstdc.scgt.oz.au [202.14.234.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA17083; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 01:47:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from imb@localhost) by asstdc.scgt.oz.au (8.7.6/BSD4.4) id SAA09564 Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:47:13 +1000 (EST) From: michael butler Message-Id: <199610170847.SAA09564@asstdc.scgt.oz.au> Subject: Re: enum considered bad ? In-Reply-To: <2022.845535270@critter.tfs.com> from Poul-Henning Kamp at "Oct 17, 96 08:54:30 am" To: phk@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:47:12 +1000 (EST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Poul-Henning Kamp writes: > I've noticed that "enum" is hardly ever used in C programs, is this > because people consider it a bad idea or because they havn't really > got the swing of it ? Personally, I find them great for state-tables but I suspect that too many view them as being too reminiscent of Pascal .. "real programmers don't need names for things, they know them all intimately by number", michael From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 02:22:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA18960 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 02:22:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from metaplex-ss10.cisco.com (metaplex-ss10.cisco.com [171.69.176.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA18955; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 02:22:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (amcrae@localhost) by metaplex-ss10.cisco.com (8.6.8+c/8.6.5) id TAA25379; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:21:48 +1000 Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:21:48 +1000 From: Andrew McRae Message-Id: <199610170921.TAA25379@metaplex-ss10.cisco.com> To: phk@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: enum considered bad ? Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk phk@critter.tfs.com (Poul-Henning Kamp): > > I've noticed that "enum" is hardly ever used in C programs, is this > because people consider it a bad idea or because they havn't really > got the swing of it ? Can be historical in nature. Enums came in around the same time that structure copying came in, so the earliest kernels and user-land code did not have any enum code in them. In kernel stuff, one reason why #define stuff is preferred over enums is because you can use them in asm files. Also, people sometimes like to overload variables with bit masks as well as enumeration. I use enums where I can, and they are encouraged here at cisco. I prefer them because the compiler can be a little stricter with type checking and switch warnings etc., but it is surprising how many times you want to store those numbers in a char (so you can't declare the variable as an enum) or get at them in an assembler routiner. > Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. Cheers, Andrew McRae (cisco Core Down Under). From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 03:01:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA20849 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 03:01:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pdx1.world.net (pdx1.world.net [192.243.32.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA20843; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 03:01:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from suburbia.net (suburbia.net [203.4.184.1]) by pdx1.world.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA07961; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 03:01:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (proff@localhost) by suburbia.net (8.7.4/Proff-950810) id UAA29914; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 20:00:50 +1000 From: Julian Assange Message-Id: <199610171000.UAA29914@suburbia.net> Subject: high resolution text modes To: sos@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 20:00:50 +1000 (EST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Success! I'm now running on a 100x30(16x9 font) 88hz modified FreeBSD syscons.c. I still have some issues to address vis automatically changing between resolutions on different VT's. Some video cards clocks require programming in particular ways. It would be nice if one could do a "register dump" of the current mode and save it in an array and later restore the values when the VT is again made active. I am not hopeful given the hardware dependent manner that many dot clocks are programmed in and the use of register extension portals. I suspect that any solution would approach the code size of SVGATextMode itself. My intention is to remove per-vt resolutions entirely. They seem like creeping featurism to me and of little use - I noted a comment in the linux kernel code stating that the linux per-vt resolutions which were removed for similar reasons. Obtip: watch out for outb(x,y) in linux code. The XFREE/BSD world uses outb (y,x). Boy did I have fun with this one. -- "Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies, The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis, _God in the Dock_ +---------------------+--------------------+----------------------------------+ |Julian Assange RSO | PO Box 2031 BARKER | Secret Analytic Guy Union | |proff@suburbia.net | VIC 3122 AUSTRALIA | finger for PGP key hash ID = | |proff@gnu.ai.mit.edu | FAX +61-3-98199066 | 0619737CCC143F6DEA73E27378933690 | +---------------------+--------------------+----------------------------------+ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 03:41:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA22928 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 03:41:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.ukc.ac.uk (mercury.ukc.ac.uk [129.12.21.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA22923 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 03:41:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kestrel.ukc.ac.uk by mercury.ukc.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:40:46 +0100 Received: from localhost by kestrel.ukc.ac.uk (5.x/UKC-2.14) id AA08782; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:40:43 +0100 Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:40:42 +0100 (BST) From: "K.J.Koster" To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: enum considered bad ? In-Reply-To: <199610170748.AAA28017@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > the _size_ of the type, I use #define'd constants and more explicit types. > Hmm. I personally prefer const instead of #define, where possible, because it gives your constant a type. However, my opinion is colored by c++. Another c-thing that I don't see very often is: { /* ... */ const size_t len = sizeof (buffer); /* ... */ } instead of { size_t len; /* ... */ len = sizeof (buffer); /* ... */ } This might be useful to track down accidental modifications of len. Further, it attempts to limit (but fails, it's C ;) the scope of len to where it's actually used. And it asserts that len is actually initialised when it's used. It cannot be used uninitialised. Disadvantage is that you don't always know where to look for the definition of len, it is no longer in the top part of the function. But I personally find this not a problem, since I try to give varables meaningful names. (And that is not the "iLen" convention, I _hate_ that) Groetjes, Kees Jan ===========================================================V=== Kees Jan Koster kjk1@ukc.ac.uk < no address yet :( > =============================================================== Who is this General Failure, and why is he reading my disk? ===========================================================^=== From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 03:52:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA23491 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 03:52:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ra.dkuug.dk (ra.dkuug.dk [193.88.44.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA23486; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 03:52:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ra.dkuug.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA05164; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:51:21 +0200 Message-Id: <199610171051.MAA05164@ra.dkuug.dk> Subject: Re: high resolution text modes To: proff@suburbia.net (Julian Assange) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:51:20 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: sos@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610171000.UAA29914@suburbia.net> from "Julian Assange" at Oct 17, 96 08:00:50 pm From: sos@freebsd.org Reply-to: sos@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Julian Assange who wrote: > > Success! > > I'm now running on a 100x30(16x9 font) 88hz modified FreeBSD syscons.c. > I still have some issues to address vis automatically changing between > resolutions on different VT's. Some video cards clocks require > programming in particular ways. It would be nice if one could do a > "register dump" of the current mode and save it in an array and later > restore the values when the VT is again made active. I am not hopeful > given the hardware dependent manner that many dot clocks are programmed > in and the use of register extension portals. I suspect that any > solution would approach the code size of SVGATextMode itself. My > intention is to remove per-vt resolutions entirely. They seem like > creeping featurism to me and of little use - I noted a comment in the > linux kernel code stating that the linux per-vt resolutions which were > removed for similar reasons. Erhm, You are not going to remove anything of that kind from syscons if thats what you want. I'll provide you with a interface for doing this if need be, but this will NOT go into syscons, or I'll resign as its maintainer. > Obtip: watch out for outb(x,y) in linux code. The XFREE/BSD world > uses outb (y,x). Boy did I have fun with this one. Hmm, then you should prepare for some of the REAL fun.... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team So much code to hack -- so little time. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 04:05:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA24223 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 04:05:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sovcom.kiae.su (sovcom.kiae.su [193.125.152.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA24211 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 04:05:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sovcom.kiae.su id AA02981 (5.65.kiae-1 ); Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:59:44 +0300 Received: by sovcom.KIAE.su (UUMAIL/2.0); Thu, 17 Oct 96 13:59:44 +0300 Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.ru (8.7.6/8.7.3) id OAA00610; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:56:57 +0400 (MSD) Message-Id: <199610171056.OAA00610@nagual.ru> Subject: Re: POSIX TEST SUITE In-Reply-To: <199610170116.SAA04419@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at "Oct 16, 96 06:16:52 pm" To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:56:56 +0400 (MSD) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org From: "=?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?=" (Andrey A. Chernov) Organization: self X-Class: Fast X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I now have a copy of "Official NIST-PCTS:151-2 Version 1.8, 10/1/95", > the National Institute of STandards and Technology POSIX Conformance > Test Suite. Terry, could you please run this test suit privately on your -current machine and send us exception list which it find? -- Andrey A. Chernov http://www.nagual.ru/~ache/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 04:16:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA24685 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 04:16:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asstdc.scgt.oz.au (root@asstdc.scgt.oz.au [202.14.234.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA24680; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 04:15:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from imb@localhost) by asstdc.scgt.oz.au (8.7.6/BSD4.4) id VAA15331 Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:12:36 +1000 (EST) From: michael butler Message-Id: <199610171112.VAA15331@asstdc.scgt.oz.au> Subject: Re: enum considered bad ? In-Reply-To: <199610170804.JAA05315@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> from Luigi Rizzo at "Oct 17, 96 09:04:01 am" To: luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it (Luigi Rizzo) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:12:34 +1000 (EST) Cc: phk@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Luigi Rizzo writes: > > I've noticed that "enum" is hardly ever used in C programs, .. > isn't it more a compatibility issue with old compilers which do not > support it ? "old" = pre-version 7 unix .. in the days where John Lions' books were a reflection "current technology". "enum" is just as old as "long", michael From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 04:24:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA25005 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 04:24:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA24994; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 04:24:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.7.6/8.6.9) id VAA25414; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:18:59 +1000 Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:18:59 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199610171118.VAA25414@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: amcrae@cisco.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org, phk@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: enum considered bad ? Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I use enums where I can, and they are encouraged here at cisco. >I prefer them because the compiler can be a little stricter >with type checking and switch warnings etc., but it is >surprising how many times you want to store those numbers >in a char (so you can't declare the variable as an enum) or >get at them in an assembler routiner. gcc's __attribute__(()) works right in some cases, but not here: enum foo { ONE, TWO } __attribute__((__mode__(__QI__))); tells you that __attribute__(()) doesn't apply to types. enum foo xxx __attribute__((__mode__(__QI__))); gives an ordinary enum. enum foo xxx __attribute__((__mode__(__DI__))); gives a long long enum. I often store enums in char variables and interpret the char variables in debuggers by casting back to enums. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 04:29:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA25241 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 04:29:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from minnow.render.com (render.demon.co.uk [158.152.30.118]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA25234 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 04:29:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from minnow.render.com (minnow.render.com [193.195.178.1]) by minnow.render.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA14775; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:28:11 +0100 Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:28:10 +0100 (BST) From: Doug Rabson To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Jake Hamby , Jeremy Sigmon , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question In-Reply-To: <29588.845495654@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > 1) More pounding on devfs (is it planned as a standard feature installed > > by sysinstall, or more of an optional feature installed by hand?) > > The latter. AFAIK, Julian still hasn't solved the persistance problem > (though we discussed a number of different ways it could be done > fairly trivially and I don't know what's holding him up) and people running > with it as their /dev still show an unfortunate tendency to crash a lot, > so no. > > > So the way I see things (and since I'm not a core team person, this is > > just my opinion), FreeBSD 2.2 could easily be released by Christmas, or > > even the end of November. I think if the core team puts the squeeze on > > NFS weirdness seems to be the #1 monster under the bed with 2.2 - > might some of you folks out there with multiple machines be willing to > assist John and Doug with some stress-testing? If you can find and > reproduce bugs yourselves, that's even better (e.g. they need someone > to help play QA team on NFS). I am in a slightly dodgy position here as the 'maintainer' of our NFS code. I don't run NFS much here. I spend most of my time running my employer's 'operating systems' and even when I do spend a bit of time on FreeBSD, I only have one machine which can possibly run -current. I am perfectly willing to attempt to find and fix problems in the NFS system but a lot of the time I simply *can't* reproduce the problems that people are seeing. It would be extremely helpful if those of you who have NFS problems to actually get your hands into the code and figure out what is happening in your environment. I know this is not always possible but certainly some of you can. A good example here is Hidetoshi Shimokawa who had a problem with write performance, got into the code and found a solution. This has two benefits: better performance for NFS and one more person who understands (some of) how this monster works. -- Doug Rabson, Microsoft RenderMorphics Ltd. Mail: dfr@render.com Phone: +44 171 734 3761 FAX: +44 171 734 6426 From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 05:25:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA27155 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 05:25:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA27149 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 05:25:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.7.6/8.6.9) id WAA27185; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:18:51 +1000 Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:18:51 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199610171218.WAA27185@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, terry@lambert.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, jehamby@lightside.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com, jsigmon@www.hsc.wvu.edu Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >The issue with persistence is that not everyone is happy with the >default permissions puked up by the drivers. Our embedded boxes, for >example, want /dev/io 0660, which would be insane for a production >system. Not much more insane than the existence of /dev/io :-). > >In essence, the "persistence" for devfs needs to hold : > > - ownership > - permissions > - symlinks > >IMHO, there's nothing there that can't be achieved with a script >argument to mount_devfs, although it could be argued that because the Nothing that can't be achieved with a script argument to /bin/sh. >devfs has to be mounted before the script could be processed there is >a potential window of vulnerability there. The initial permissions must be highly secure so that there is no window. root.wheel with permissions 000 would be best. Then there would be no possible holes and no policy about ownerships or permissions in the kernel. (The kernel currently has the uid and gid of uucp and dialer hard-coded :-(.) However, this would require a huge script. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 05:38:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA27685 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 05:38:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA27677 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 05:38:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id FAA27848 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 05:38:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk (snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]) by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.0/8.8.0) with ESMTP id NAA21311 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:30:57 +0100 (BST) Received: from cadair.elsevier.co.uk by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:33:36 +0100 Received: from tees.elsevier.co.uk (tees.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.60]) by cadair.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.0/8.8.0) with ESMTP id NAA17580; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:33:26 +0100 (BST) Received: (from dpr@localhost) by tees.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.0/8.8.0) id NAA10591; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:32:28 +0100 (BST) To: "John W. Rasins" Cc: rkw@dataplex.net (Richard Wackerbarth), freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 References: <2.2.16.19961017034637.2d47df30@pop.mindspring.com> From: Paul Richards Date: 17 Oct 1996 13:32:27 +0100 In-Reply-To: "John W. Rasins"'s message of Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:46:37 -0700 Message-ID: <57bue1srdw.fsf@tees.elsevier.co.uk> Lines: 13 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.30 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk "John W. Rasins" writes: > >Remember -- Image is everything. > > Image is nothing! Obey your thirst! ((c) Coca-Cola Bottling Company I believe) No it was 7 UP wasn't it (maybe Coca Cola do that too). -- Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor) Elsevier Science TIS online journal project. Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155 From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 06:14:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA29098 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 06:14:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.ukc.ac.uk (mercury.ukc.ac.uk [129.12.21.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA29092 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 06:14:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kestrel.ukc.ac.uk by mercury.ukc.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:13:41 +0100 Received: from localhost by kestrel.ukc.ac.uk (5.x/UKC-2.14) id AA11442; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:13:39 +0100 Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:13:38 +0100 (BST) From: "K.J.Koster" To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: enum considered bad ? In-Reply-To: <9609178455.AA845559205@cc4.dttus.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > the _size_ of the type, I use #define'd constants and more explicit types. > Hmm. I personally prefer const instead of #define, where possible, because it gives your constant a type. However, my opinion is colored by c++. Another c-thing that I don't see very often is: { /* ... */ const size_t len = sizeof (buffer); /* ... */ } instead of { size_t len; /* ... */ len = sizeof (buffer); /* ... */ } This might be useful to track down accidental modifications of len. Further, it attempts to limit (but fails, it's C ;) the scope of len to where it's actually used. And it asserts that len is actually initialised when it's used. It cannot be used uninitialised. Disadvantage is that you don't always know where to look for the definition of len, it is no longer in the top part of the function. But I personally find this not a problem, since I try to give varables meaningful names. (And that is not the "iLen" convention, I _hate_ that) Groetjes, Kees Jan ===========================================================V=== Kees Jan Koster kjk1@ukc.ac.uk < no address yet :( > =============================================================== Who is this General Failure, and why is he reading my disk? ===========================================================^=== From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 06:22:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA29389 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 06:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net ([198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA29379; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 06:22:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA04122; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:22:10 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199610171322.IAA04122@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: enum considered bad ? To: phk@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:22:10 -0500 (EST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <2022.845535270@critter.tfs.com> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at Oct 17, 96 08:54:30 am Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > I've noticed that "enum" is hardly ever used in C programs, is this > because people consider it a bad idea or because they havn't really > got the swing of it ? > I think that it is mostly habit. In C++, enum's are nice due to extra typechecking. ANSI-C does not afford typechecking of enums. Unfortunately an enum is roughly the same as an int in ANSI-C and misuse of an enum is easy (about the same as a #define.) John From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 06:22:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA29459 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 06:22:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.225.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA29417 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 06:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de [137.226.31.2]) by Campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (RBI-Z-5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA05505 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:22:38 +0100 Received: (from kuku@localhost) by gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA29987 for freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:27:56 +0100 Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:27:56 +0100 From: Christoph Kukulies Message-Id: <199610171327.OAA29987@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: 2.2-961014-SNAP install problem Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I tried to install (skipping kernel config) 2.2-961014-SNAP on a PPro-200 (ASUS P6NP5, 32MB, NCR BIOS, Quantum Atlas 2GB,\ first PCI device IDE, second SCSI) The partition editor barfed at my disk geometry and decided to take 2050/64/32 instead of the native geometry of 3925/10/107. Trying to enforce the latter (G option) doesn't seem possible. After a first seemingly successful install of the filesystems and extract from ftp.de.freebsd,org I got this infamous 'Missing Operating System'. I'm clueless at the moment. A send install got hung eternally at the box 'Copying device files' --Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 06:29:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA29765 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 06:29:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lassie.eunet.fi (lassie.eunet.fi [192.26.119.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA29752 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 06:29:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from marathon.tekla.fi by lassie.eunet.fi with SMTP id AA13901 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:29:03 +0300 Received: from poveri.tekla.fi by marathon.tekla.fi (5.65/20-jun-90) id AA26393; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:29:00 +0200 From: sja@tekla.fi (Sakari Jalovaara) Received: by poveri.tekla.fi; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/20Aug96-0557PM) id AA19172; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:28:58 +0300 Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:28:58 +0300 Message-Id: <9610171328.AA19172@poveri.tekla.fi> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: enum considered bad ? Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I've noticed that "enum" is hardly ever used in C programs, is this > because people consider it a bad idea or because they havn't really > got the swing of it ? I don't use enums because C doesn't say what *size* they are. External data (files, networks, hardware) requires knowing how many bits/bytes I'm working with. When I put small integral values in a large array, I say "char foo[10000]". Saves space. When I want a single local/static/global variable, I say "int foo". For single variables, ints are (usually) the fastest type (think "DEC Alpha" here). With enums I can't choose. And different compilers/ABIs pack enums differently. ++sja From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 06:56:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA01301 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 06:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plains.nodak.edu (tinguely@plains.NoDak.edu [134.129.111.64]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA01296 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 06:56:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tinguely@localhost) by plains.nodak.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) id IAA09779; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:55:42 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:55:42 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Tinguely Message-Id: <199610171355.IAA09779@plains.nodak.edu> To: chuckr@glue.umd.edu, terry@lambert.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 Cc: brians@mandor.dev.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, gclarkii@main.gbdata.com, phk@critter.tfs.com Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From PC Week Oct 14, 1996, page 19-22 Caldera prices: $59 base product will feature basic client server implementation of Linux to be targeted at students, consumers, and first time Linux users. $300 workstation adds networking and Internet capabilites including Navigator 3.0 Gold, Netware cleint and secure Web Server. This should also include Java virtual machine and Java development tools. $1500 workstation with Novell Cross Platform Services. different markets pay significantly different prices. --mark. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 07:03:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA01779 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:03:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA01769; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:03:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA17539; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:03:29 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:03:29 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199610171403.IAA17539@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: phk@freebsd.org Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: enum considered bad ? In-Reply-To: <2022.845535270@critter.tfs.com> References: <2022.845535270@critter.tfs.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I've noticed that "enum" is hardly ever used in C programs, is this > because people consider it a bad idea or because they havn't really > got the swing of it ? I use it all the time for state machines in C, and I find it makes the code easier to understand. It's also a necessary evil in C++ for doing 'hidden' constants. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 07:07:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA02024 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:07:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA02019 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:07:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.7.6/8.6.5) with SMTP id HAA11240; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:06:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610171406.HAA11240@root.com> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.root.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Narvi cc: Joe Greco , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:06:21 +0300." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:06:19 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >3.0R? wouldn't it be a too high increment in the version number? In that >way we will soon be at FreeBSD 4.3 (and 4.4) release. How about 2.4? It >would allow enough of growing place for 2.2 to evolve into ultrastable >2.3 (if it stays around for that long). As we seem to be using numbers of >the x.y.z kind we should think too much about x. Or are we going to >undergo some *MAJOR* change? SMP. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 07:34:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA03891 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:34:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.225.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA03836 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de [137.226.31.2]) by Campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (RBI-Z-5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA06719 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:34:47 +0100 Received: (from kuku@localhost) by gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA00351; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:40:09 +0100 From: Christoph Kukulies Message-Id: <199610171440.PAA00351@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> Subject: Re: 2.2-961014-SNAP install problem In-Reply-To: <199610171327.OAA29987@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> from Christoph Kukulies at "Oct 17, 96 02:27:56 pm" To: kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (Christoph Kukulies) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:40:08 +0100 (MET) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Reply-To: Christoph Kukulies X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I tried to install (skipping kernel config) 2.2-961014-SNAP on > a PPro-200 (ASUS P6NP5, 32MB, NCR BIOS, Quantum Atlas 2GB,\ > first PCI device IDE, second SCSI) > > The partition editor barfed at my disk geometry and > decided to take 2050/64/32 instead of the > native geometry of 3925/10/107. Trying to enforce > the latter (G option) doesn't seem possible. > > After a first seemingly successful install of the filesystems > and extract from ftp.de.freebsd,org I got this > infamous 'Missing Operating System'. > > I'm clueless at the moment. A send install got hung second^ > eternally at the box 'Copying device files' > > --Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de > --Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 07:36:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA04067 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:36:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from starfire.mn.org (root@starfire.skypoint.net [199.86.32.187]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA04059 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:36:34 -0700 (PDT) From: john@starfire.mn.org Received: (from john@localhost) by starfire.mn.org (8.7.5/1.1) id JAA07828 for hackers@FreeBSD.org; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:36:28 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199610171436.JAA07828@starfire.mn.org> Subject: rlogind user name restrictions To: hackers@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:36:27 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I understand the restriction on not passing a "username" to login that STARTS with '-', but I do not understand the restriction on it anywhere in the "lusername" string. Would any BAD THINGS happen if I relaxed the restriction to only check for the first character? The thing is, we have a user "star-net"... Please include me in any responses, as I do not subscribe to this list. John Lind, Starfire Consulting Services E-mail: john@starfire.MN.ORG USnail: PO Box 17247, Mpls MN 55417 From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 08:54:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA08205 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:54:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sag.space.lockheed.com (sag.space.lockheed.com [192.68.162.134]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA08200 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:54:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by sag.space.lockheed.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/21Nov95-0423PM) id AA14324; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:54:27 -0700 Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:54:27 -0700 (PDT) From: "Brian N. Handy" To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: 2.2-961006-SNAP keyboard lockup In-Reply-To: <199610170549.XAA00642@fluffy.aros.net> Message-Id: X-Files: The truth is out there Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >It's never happened under X, most likely because I'm never > a) switching vty's >or > b) hitting the certain keys that cause it to lock. I do occasionally have keyboard lockups too, but only under X. I'm not sure that mine is a FreeBSD problem however -- I'm running Xaccel. If I log out my session (The mouse still works) and log back in, I find that I have control of the keyboard again. (I run 960801-SNAP.) I'm not sure yet what sorts of things set off my problem. I wasn't going to report it until I had a better grip on what causes it, but maybe it's a useful datapoint. Regards, Brian From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 08:58:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA08392 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:58:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA08381 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:58:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.7.5/8.6.12) id SAA25873; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:56:59 +0300 (EET DST) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:56:58 +0300 (EET DST) From: Narvi To: David Greenman cc: Joe Greco , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-Reply-To: <199610171406.HAA11240@root.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, David Greenman wrote: > >3.0R? wouldn't it be a too high increment in the version number? In that > >way we will soon be at FreeBSD 4.3 (and 4.4) release. How about 2.4? It > >would allow enough of growing place for 2.2 to evolve into ultrastable > >2.3 (if it stays around for that long). As we seem to be using numbers of > >the x.y.z kind we should think too much about x. Or are we going to > >undergo some *MAJOR* change? > > SMP. SMP, kernel multithreading, scheduling classes, ELF, etc. But as I come to think about it will SMP have to wait until 3.0 or will it be introduced in some 2.x series? It seems 2.2 took such a long time. How long will it take until 3.0 comes out? As long? Less time? More time? I am afraid at least as much. Not that calling the next tree 2.4 would make much difference, I just dislike *huge* jumps in numbering. I would like 2.4 or (which sound better,) 2.5. But that's my personal taste. Sander PS. Tough it would be cool to sit in front of the monitor and watch the web based kernel perfomance monitor show how much time the kernel spends in which threads. > > -DG > > David Greenman > Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project > From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 09:06:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA08684 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:06:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA08671 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:05:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id LAA00585; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:02:23 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610171602.LAA00585@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:02:23 -0500 (CDT) Cc: terry@lambert.org, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, phk@critter.tfs.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610170148.LAA09591@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Oct 17, 96 11:18:54 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Terry Lambert stands accused of saying: > > > > I pretty much don't have the time because I'd insist on ISO 9000 > > standards for the process; these basically boil down to: > > > > 1) Define a process > > 2) Document the process in a policy manual > > 3) Follow the process by obeying the policy manual > > 4) Document the act following the process so that it is provable > > that the process was followed for each release > > > > This would be a full time job... job title: "release engineer". > > My documented process now requires me to laugh uncontrollably. > > ha. > > (Sorry Scott) Isn't that supposed to be: "Our documented process says I must now laugh in your face and double our price." :-) (10/11/96 on the Web site, I believe) What would life be without Dilbert... ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 09:14:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA09315 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:14:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA09302 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id LAA00599; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:12:31 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610171612.LAA00599@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 To: narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee (Narvi) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:12:31 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Narvi" at Oct 17, 96 11:06:21 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > This would be, IMHO, an excellent path to follow. 2.1.5 (to become 2.1.6) > > is very obviously a highly polished product, and for many of us would > > continue to be the "OS of choice" for quite some time, for those demanding, > > high availability applications.. > > There are some problems. One of these are ports. Some of ports (SSLeay > for example) do not compile under -stable as they require DES code > present only in -current, all new ports are for -current only and some of > them won't work on -stable as they depend on say TCL being present in the > system. -stable is not only dead it is even buried. And a new release on > -stable will be for only very specific uses and most people perhaps even > wouldn't want it. They just may require all those user programs that are > only for 2.2.x. As much as I like the port paradigm, I think it is mildly broken, and I am sure that others would agree: It is very annoying to try to compile ports more than three minutes after they were created. You will invariably run across a number of them which have changed, some with version number bumps, etc. This is not a FreeBSD problem. However, there are days when I really wish that "distfiles" were somehow managed differently, so that this kind of thing did not happen. > > That's why the 2.2R thing seems like such a good idea. If a new "-stable" > > is created at 2.2R, and "-current" goes its merry way on to 3.0R, that > > gives people like me a good solid point at which to start, and a path to > > follow for the next year or two while 2.2.XR becomes as stable as 2.1.5R. > > 3.0R? wouldn't it be a too high increment in the version number? In that > way we will soon be at FreeBSD 4.3 (and 4.4) release. How about 2.4? It > would allow enough of growing place for 2.2 to evolve into ultrastable > 2.3 (if it stays around for that long). As we seem to be using numbers of > the x.y.z kind we should think too much about x. Or are we going to > undergo some *MAJOR* change? I do not care too much about version numbering. Given the manner in which versions have been numbered, I do not see a need for x.y.z release numbering, and would settle for x.y... but it is really all pretty arbitrary, in my opinion. I do not care if the core team decides that -current after such a fork would be headed towards 2.3, 2.4, 2.5, 3.0, or 10.0.. :-) ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 09:16:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA09424 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:16:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA09410 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:16:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id LAA00616; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:15:29 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610171615.LAA00616@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 To: dg@root.com Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:15:28 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610171406.HAA11240@root.com> from "David Greenman" at Oct 17, 96 07:06:19 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >3.0R? wouldn't it be a too high increment in the version number? In that > >way we will soon be at FreeBSD 4.3 (and 4.4) release. How about 2.4? It > >would allow enough of growing place for 2.2 to evolve into ultrastable > >2.3 (if it stays around for that long). As we seem to be using numbers of > >the x.y.z kind we should think too much about x. Or are we going to > >undergo some *MAJOR* change? > > SMP. (drops to his knees and begins worshipping) :-) Please go, full steam ahead! ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 09:20:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA09612 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA09602 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:20:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id LAA00627; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:18:14 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610171618.LAA00627@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 To: narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee (Narvi) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:18:14 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Narvi" at Oct 17, 96 10:51:11 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > > > I think that it will be wise to release 2.2 soon. It is getting uncomfortable > > for both users or ISPs and developers. > > Soon? If something even remotedly stable is to be released, then IMHO a > new branch should be created soon and 2.2.0-prerelease-stable put up for > testing for say ~1.5 - 2 months? If people can say yeah, it's stable, it > has been out for quite some time then we can make the release and be > comfort - most people will see long uptimes and the image of FreeBSD as a > stable OS will remain. I would strongly support such an action and do everything possible within my available means to test it and provide feedback. ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 09:39:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA10978 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:39:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA10973 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:39:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA03666; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:39:35 -0700 (PDT) To: "Brian N. Handy" cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: 2.2-961006-SNAP keyboard lockup In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:54:27 PDT." Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:39:35 -0700 Message-ID: <3664.845570375@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I do occasionally have keyboard lockups too, but only under X. I'm not > sure that mine is a FreeBSD problem however -- I'm running Xaccel. If I > log out my session (The mouse still works) and log back in, I find that I > have control of the keyboard again. (I run 960801-SNAP.) When it locks up, is it possible to run this from a mouse menu button or something and see if it fixes it? echo "set ipending=2" | gdb -k -w /kernel /dev/mem >/dev/null 2>&1 I have the same problem, but it only happens when I xmodmap the keyboard to swap my capslock and DEL keys. Before I did this (the result of switching keyboards to one which didn't do it in hardware), I never had a problem at all. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 09:45:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA11384 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:45:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA11379 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:45:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.0/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id QAA25463; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:45:07 GMT Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 01:45:07 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Doug Rabson cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Recent hacking (was Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Doug Rabson wrote: > It would be extremely helpful if those of you who have NFS problems to > actually get your hands into the code and figure out what is happening in > your environment. I know this is not always possible but certainly some > of you can. A good example here is Hidetoshi Shimokawa who had a problem > with write performance, got into the code and found a solution. This has > two benefits: better performance for NFS and one more person who > understands (some of) how this monster works. The debugging process of that thread and the SYN stuff was pretty enjoyable. I was deleting through most of the other stuff and there was a lot of stuff to delete recently. Unfortunately, I deleted the early background of the "Disappearing Directory Problem". Which I didn't notice was interesting until the tail end of the thread. Karl, would you mind recapping where you are with the "getcwd" thing? Regards, Mike Hancock From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 10:02:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA12167 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA12161 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:02:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.0/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id QAA25520; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:59:26 GMT Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 01:59:26 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Narvi cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Narvi wrote: > On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, David Greenman wrote: > > SMP, kernel multithreading, scheduling classes, ELF, etc. But as I come > to think about it will SMP have to wait until 3.0 or will it be > introduced in some 2.x series? It seems 2.2 took such a long time. How > long will it take until 3.0 comes out? As long? Less time? More time? I SMP done right takes time, it's *far* more complicated. I think 2.2 is going to be a nice piece of work and there's a lot that can be done in that line before SMP stabilizes. I would expect 2.x to have a pretty long life cycle. Just my guess, as anyone else's answer would be. Regards, Mike Hancock From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 10:05:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA12390 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:05:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA12371 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:05:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA18599; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:04:29 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:04:29 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199610171704.LAA18599@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: "Brian N. Handy" , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 2.2-961006-SNAP keyboard lockup In-Reply-To: <3664.845570375@time.cdrom.com> References: <3664.845570375@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I do occasionally have keyboard lockups too, but only under X. > > When it locks up, is it possible to run this from a mouse menu button > or something and see if it fixes it? > > echo "set ipending=2" | gdb -k -w /kernel /dev/mem >/dev/null 2>&1 Make sure this process is run as 'root' or it won't work. (I know only too well about that problem, and I know have a suid program which does the above I can call from a menu.) > I have the same problem, but it only happens when I xmodmap the > keyboard to swap my capslock and DEL keys. Before I did this (the > result of switching keyboards to one which didn't do it in hardware), > I never had a problem at all. I don't use xmodmap at all on my box and I see it *all* the time, at least once/week. (I switched the CL and DEL keys with a new keymap in syscons). However, if Jordan is still using his M$ Natural keyboard then we have something in common. It's also not X-related, as I've locked things up outside of X although X seems to 'perturb' the system as it happens much more often in X. I can also lockup vty switching by attempting to switch out of X before it's completely initialized, which confuses the heck out of syscons. If it's any consolation, the *exact* same behavior occurs under SCO, so syscons is doing a pretty good job of emulating both the good and bad features of the SCO console driver. :) Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 10:06:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA12479 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:06:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vinyl.quickweb.com (vinyl.sentex.ca [206.222.77.8]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA12457 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:06:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (mark@localhost) by vinyl.quickweb.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA18879 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:04:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: vinyl.quickweb.com: mark owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:04:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Mayo X-Sender: mark@vinyl.quickweb.com To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: GIMP problems Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi there, I was wondering if anyone is successfully using "The GIMP" on 2.2-augest-SNAP ?? I donwloaded their 2.2 binary dist. but it core dumps on me with a "bad system call" as soon as I try to create a new file (the button bar thing appears, but I can't do anything..) I also tried the 2.1 dist. and it does the same thing. I was going to compile the thing, but I don't have Motif.. -Mark ------------------------------------------- | Mark Mayo mark@quickweb.com | | C-Soft www.quickweb.com | ------------------------------------------- "To iterate is human, to recurse divine." - L. Peter Deutsch From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 10:09:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA12783 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:09:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA12642 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:07:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.7.5/8.6.12) id UAA26623; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 20:02:13 +0300 (EET DST) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 20:02:13 +0300 (EET DST) From: Narvi To: Joe Greco cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-Reply-To: <199610171612.LAA00599@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Joe Greco wrote: > > > > That's why the 2.2R thing seems like such a good idea. If a new "-stable" > > > is created at 2.2R, and "-current" goes its merry way on to 3.0R, that > > > gives people like me a good solid point at which to start, and a path to > > > follow for the next year or two while 2.2.XR becomes as stable as 2.1.5R. > > > > 3.0R? wouldn't it be a too high increment in the version number? In that > > way we will soon be at FreeBSD 4.3 (and 4.4) release. How about 2.4? It > > would allow enough of growing place for 2.2 to evolve into ultrastable > > 2.3 (if it stays around for that long). As we seem to be using numbers of > > the x.y.z kind we should think too much about x. Or are we going to > > undergo some *MAJOR* change? > > I do not care too much about version numbering. Given the manner in which > versions have been numbered, I do not see a need for x.y.z release > numbering, and would settle for x.y... but it is really all pretty > arbitrary, in my opinion. I do, but perhaps it just one of the peculiarities of me :-( > > I do not care if the core team decides that -current after such a fork would > be headed towards 2.3, 2.4, 2.5, 3.0, or 10.0.. :-) I would detest FreeBSD jumping to 10.0. I don't like it jumping to 3.0 and would like to see the next tree be of the 2.x lineage - be it 2.3, 2.4 or 2.5. But I think that's my personal problem. Got to live with that. Sander > > ... JG > From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 10:11:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA12936 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:11:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA12931; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:10:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gemini.sdsp.mc.xerox.com ([13.231.132.20]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <15084(3)>; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:10:24 PDT Received: from gnu.sdsp.mc.xerox.com (gnu.sdsp.mc.xerox.com [13.231.133.90]) by gemini.sdsp.mc.xerox.com (8.7.6/8.7.5) with SMTP id NAA19345; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:08:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by gnu.sdsp.mc.xerox.com (4.1/client-1.3) id AA28362; Thu, 17 Oct 96 13:08:09 EDT Message-Id: <9610171708.AA28362@gnu.sdsp.mc.xerox.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: phk@freebsd.org Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: enum considered bad ? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:54:30 PDT." <2022.845535270@critter.tfs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:08:09 PDT From: "Marty Leisner" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I've noticed that "enum" is hardly ever used in C programs, is this > because people consider it a bad idea or because they havn't really > got the swing of it ? > > -- > Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. > http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. > whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. > Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. You mean instead of #define...? Its an excellent idea...I saw it in a Doug McIlroy Computing Systems article, and he explained it to me. I never saw it documented any (why to use enum's for constants). enum in the normal way is used a lot. -- marty leisner@sdsp.mc.xerox.com Member of the League for Programming Freedom From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 10:28:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA14275 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:28:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA14205 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:27:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id MAA00768; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:25:09 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610171725.MAA00768@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:25:08 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610162343.QAA04190@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Oct 16, 96 04:43:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Anyone who volunteers is inherently un(der)qualified. > > > > If I believed that I could do the job any justice, I might consider > > letting myself get roped into it. As it is, I do not have time for > > current commitments, and since sol.net is not a revenue generating > > entity, I am unlikely to be able to hire anyone to reduce my workload. > > I'd probably volunteer if I had the time... Jordan has the time because > he gets paid for doing the job, and so he doesn't have conflicting > commitments. > > I pretty much don't have the time because I'd insist on ISO 9000 > standards for the process; these basically boil down to: > > 1) Define a process > 2) Document the process in a policy manual > 3) Follow the process by obeying the policy manual > 4) Document the act following the process so that it is provable > that the process was followed for each release > > This would be a full time job... job title: "release engineer". Wait, I thought we had one of those... full time, and paid, even. I may not necessarily agree with ISO 9000 itself, but I believe that the process that it attempts to enforce is a very good thing. There is even a pre-existing process that we could look to, probably buried in /usr/share/doc/papers/releng.ascii.gz. (As an aside to Jordan: as I reread this, I did happen to notice: The beta distribution goes to more sites than the alpha distribution for three main reasons. First, as it is closer to the final release, more sites are willing to run it in a production environment without fear of catastrophic fail- ures. [...] Finally, because the beta tape has fewer prob- lems, it is beneficial to offer it to more sites in hopes of finding as many of the remaining problems as possible. Apparently there is a good, solid historical basis for running beta versions on production systems...) While the CSRG procedure may be a bit more detailed than what has been done in FreeBSD, it was a solid procedure that appears to have worked very well. Maybe we could stand to learn a little something from those who have gone before us. ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 10:29:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA14359 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:29:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA14348 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:29:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA02540; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:28:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610171728.KAA02540@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Mark Mayo cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: GIMP problems In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:04:33 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:28:25 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The latest GIMP does not require motif.. Amancio >From The Desk Of Mark Mayo : > > Hi there, I was wondering if anyone is successfully using "The GIMP" on > 2.2-augest-SNAP ?? I donwloaded their 2.2 binary dist. but it core dumps > on me with a "bad system call" as soon as I try to create a new file (the > button bar thing appears, but I can't do anything..) I also tried the 2.1 > dist. and it does the same thing. > > I was going to compile the thing, but I don't have Motif.. > > -Mark > > ------------------------------------------- > | Mark Mayo mark@quickweb.com | > | C-Soft www.quickweb.com | > ------------------------------------------- > "To iterate is human, to recurse divine." > - L. Peter Deutsch > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 10:36:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA15287 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:36:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA15280; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:36:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rover.village.org (8.7.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id LAA07910; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:34:22 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199610171734.LAA07910@rover.village.org> To: Julian Assange Subject: Re: high resolution text modes Cc: sos@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Oct 1996 20:00:50 +1000." <199610171000.UAA29914@suburbia.net> References: <199610171000.UAA29914@suburbia.net> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:34:21 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199610171000.UAA29914@suburbia.net> Julian Assange writes: : I'm now running on a 100x30(16x9 font) 88hz modified FreeBSD syscons.c. I'd be keen on testing these changes when they are ready for a small, washed mass. Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 10:43:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA15606 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA15601 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:43:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA05971; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:39:36 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610171739.KAA05971@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:39:36 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, jehamby@lightside.com, jsigmon@www.hsc.wvu.edu, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610170423.WAA15646@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Oct 16, 96 10:23:30 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > argument, I was thinking of your "if they want it, let them write code > > and submit it for core team approval" argument. > > > > If people really wanted persistance as badly as you claim they do, they > > would be willing to write code (according to that argument, anyway). > > Ahh, so that's the way it works. > > OK, here goes: > > I'm going to be committing code to the FreeBSD source tree that will > enable new and wonderful laptop support. This will allow most laptops > to work wonderfully, modulo a few bugs, but it's a step in the right > direction and it's 'the direction' we need to take in FreeBSD. > > However, it will certainly break existing support for most desktop users > which user serial/network/disk device drivers. However, if it's > important for them to have things working the way they've expect to in > the past, they should either replace their desktop machines with fast > laptops or submit code to fix the problems with the existing code-base > that doesn't fit into the new 'swappable' system." > > Needless to say, this attitude won't buy me any friends. Nonsense. I fully support you, if you can show that this is truly "the right direction". I kind of doubt you can do that, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. And I will be happy to support you both loudly, and verbosely in any forum you want to discuss this. We all know that true progrees comes only trough revolution, not evolution; if we didn't believe this, we'd all be doing our research SCO, since their CDROM is $20 cheaper than the FreeBSD CDROM. Re: my persistance arguments: these are exactly the same arguments that members of the core team present when anyone complains about missing functionality of any kind. They are the same arguments the core team used against Richard regarding the make system. They are the same areguments Poul and company used agains Garrett regarding devconf. They are the same arguments Garret used against me regarding ISO networking support. If the argument is acceptable for core team members to use, it's acceptable for non-core-team members. Clearly, the converse is true: if the argument is unacceptable for non-core memebrs, it's unacceptable for everyone. Including you. Including me. Including Jordan. The only way a society of individuals can remain intact is by appling all standards uniformly to all members. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 10:39:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA15351 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:39:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA15339 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:38:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rover.village.org (8.7.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id LAA07973; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:37:26 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199610171737.LAA07973@rover.village.org> To: Paul Richards Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 Cc: "John W. Rasins" , rkw@dataplex.net (Richard Wackerbarth), freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-reply-to: Your message of "17 Oct 1996 13:32:27 BST." <57bue1srdw.fsf@tees.elsevier.co.uk> References: <57bue1srdw.fsf@tees.elsevier.co.uk> <2.2.16.19961017034637.2d47df30@pop.mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:37:26 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <57bue1srdw.fsf@tees.elsevier.co.uk> Paul Richards writes: : > Image is nothing! Obey your thirst! ((c) Coca-Cola Bottling Company I believe) : : No it was 7 UP wasn't it (maybe Coca Cola do that too). Sprite. It is owned by Coke. Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 10:45:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA15804 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:45:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA15799 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:45:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA05986; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:42:28 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610171742.KAA05986@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question To: phk@critter.tfs.com (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:42:28 -0700 (MST) Cc: julian@whistle.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com, jehamby@lightside.com, jsigmon@www.hsc.wvu.edu, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <1584.845530973@critter.tfs.com> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at Oct 17, 96 07:42:53 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >personally I don't think persistance is of any importance > >but I hear the crowd yelling for their placebo's so I will do it some > >time.. but it tripples the complexity of the filesystem. > > That's not true. Layer it on top of a normal filesystem, use the > (empty) files down there to store the modes & ownerships. Say this "normal file system" is NFS mounted from an OSF box, which doesn't support greater than 16 bit major/minor numbers. One of the main benefits of a devfs that is independent of a backing store is that it removes the reliance on stable storage compatible with the OS... ie: I can netboot from OSF, but I don't have to hack up the OSF FS to support FreeBSD device nodes if I have a working devfs. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 10:46:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA15908 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:46:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.230.177]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA15850; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:45:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA03806; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:42:01 +0200 (MET DST) To: Joe Greco cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith), terry@lambert.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:02:23 CDT." <199610171602.LAA00585@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:41:59 +0200 Message-ID: <3804.845574119@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199610171602.LAA00585@brasil.moneng.mei.com>, Joe Greco writes: > >Isn't that supposed to be: > >"Our documented process says I must now laugh in your face and double >our price." :-) (10/11/96 on the Web site, I believe) > >What would life be without Dilbert... The same, but without the cartoon that shows how silly it is :-) -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 10:47:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA16031 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:47:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.230.177]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA16003; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:47:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA03825; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:45:29 +0200 (MET DST) To: Joe Greco cc: narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee (Narvi), freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:12:31 CDT." <199610171612.LAA00599@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:45:29 +0200 Message-ID: <3823.845574329@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199610171612.LAA00599@brasil.moneng.mei.com>, Joe Greco writes: >This is not a FreeBSD problem. However, there are days when I really wish >that "distfiles" were somehow managed differently, so that this kind of >thing did not happen. Well, make a server that does nothing but while true do sup supfile-cvs-ports cd /usr/ports cvs -q update -P -d make -k fetch done then we know where we can find it :-) -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 10:49:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA16295 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:49:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA16283 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:49:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA18866; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:44:47 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:44:47 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199610171744.LAA18866@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), jkh@time.cdrom.com, jehamby@lightside.com, jsigmon@www.hsc.wvu.edu, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question In-Reply-To: <199610171739.KAA05971@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199610170423.WAA15646@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199610171739.KAA05971@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ Me breaking the tree in the name of 'progress', but passing off the responsibility of fixing it on others. ] > > Needless to say, this attitude won't buy me any friends. > > Nonsense. I fully support you, if you can show that this is truly "the > right direction". I kind of doubt you can do that, but I'm willing > to give you the benefit of the doubt. It *is* the right direction, but it might not be the 'best' implementation. (As a matter of fact, it isn't. :) Doing things for the 'right reason' is *rarely* a good way to run a business. > We all know that true progrees comes only trough revolution, not evolution; > if we didn't believe this, we'd all be doing our research SCO, since > their CDROM is $20 cheaper than the FreeBSD CDROM. And the fact that you can't do research w/out access to source code makes it almost wholly impossible. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 10:50:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA16376 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:50:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (austin.polstra.com [206.213.73.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA16357; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:50:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (jdp@localhost) by austin.polstra.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA03129; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610171750.KAA03129@austin.polstra.com> To: sos@FreeBSD.org cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:14:56 +0200." <199610161814.UAA00583@SandBox.CyberCity.dk> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:50:07 -0700 From: John Polstra Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Somebody wrote: > > > > I presume this uses a method that JDP can integrate with the linker, so that > > > > it's not necessary to 'brand' ELF executables after you've made them? I am attaching a patch for the elfkit-1.2.1 version of binutils, to make it automatically brand all ELF files with "FreeBSD". This patch is very quick and very dirty. If you're expecting a fine piece of software engineering, look elsewhere. I will try to come up with a better version that doesn't put FreeBSD-specific code into a supposedly target independent source file. I looked at it for quite a while yesterday, and ran into the usual problem: 1. You want to merge your changes into binutils in a target independent way, so that GNU will accept them into the next release. 2. The required hooks for doing it in a target independent way do not currently exist. 3. Adding the necessary hooks would most likely require making changes to the target specific code for every ELF target. 4. The resulting set of diffs would be so large that GNU probably wouldn't accept them. 5. Go to step 1, and oh, by the way, have a nice day! :-) John -- John Polstra jdp@polstra.com John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA "Self-knowledge is always bad news." -- John Barth This is a patch to make the elfkit-1.2.1 tools "brand" all ELF files with the "FreeBSD" tag, to indicate to the OS which API they expect to use. This patch should be applied after the elfkit-1.2.1 patches in "patches/binutils-2.6.0.12.patch" have been applied. To apply these patches, chdir into the "binutils-2.6.0.12" directory, and do this: patch < this_file # Where "this_file" is the name of this file, duh Then build and install binutils-2.6.0.12 in the usual way. Index: bfd/elf.c =================================================================== RCS file: /home/jdp/elf/cvs/elf/binutils/bfd/elf.c,v retrieving revision 1.1.1.2 diff -u -r1.1.1.2 elf.c --- elf.c 1996/03/30 01:32:11 1.1.1.2 +++ elf.c 1996/10/17 17:07:47 @@ -2384,6 +2384,8 @@ break; case bfd_arch_i386: i_ehdrp->e_machine = EM_386; + /* Quick and dirty patch to "brand" the file as a FreeBSD ELF file. */ + strncpy((char *) &i_ehdrp->e_ident[8], "FreeBSD", EI_NIDENT-8); break; case bfd_arch_m68k: i_ehdrp->e_machine = EM_68K; From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 10:54:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA16683 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:54:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA16678 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:54:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA04198; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:52:01 -0700 (PDT) To: Terry Lambert cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), jehamby@lightside.com, jsigmon@www.hsc.wvu.edu, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:39:36 PDT." <199610171739.KAA05971@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:52:01 -0700 Message-ID: <4196.845574721@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > If the argument is acceptable for core team members to use, it's > acceptable for non-core-team members. Clearly, the converse is > true: if the argument is unacceptable for non-core memebrs, it's > unacceptable for everyone. Including you. Including me. Including If only life were that conveniently boolean. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 10:54:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA16701 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:54:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA16689 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:54:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA06027; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:52:15 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610171752.KAA06027@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:52:15 -0700 (MST) Cc: jdw@wwwi.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610170542.WAA01398@rah.star-gate.com> from "Amancio Hasty" at Oct 16, 96 10:42:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > "CONTRIBUTE, PAY or SHUT UP! (in order of my preference)" > > > > Then you shouldn't call it FreeBSD, because it isn't. You should > > call it "MembersOnlyBSD." > > > > I was under the mistaken impression that the core team might be > > starting to forget that there are users out there. You have made > > it clear that in fact it is because you are pretending you don't > > have users. > > It is a matter of what we can do and the resources that we > have available -- that is all . No it's not. It is the difference between an entrepeneurship (16-22 participants, max) and a small business (100-150 participants, max) and a medium business (1200-2500 participants, max). Linux is a small business. FreeBSD is an entrepeneurship. Linux is currently hitting its limits; so is FreeBSD. Novell has been hitting it's limits for 4 or more years now... (Novell is a medium business with delusions of large business). Microsoft is a large business. It is a matter of organizational limitation, not one of resource limitation. There are *plenty* of people who want to contribute code -- we just don't want you to tell us what code we are permitted to contribute. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 11:00:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA17117 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:00:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA17112 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:00:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA06052; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:57:47 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610171757.KAA06052@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question To: julian@whistle.com (Julian Elischer) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:57:47 -0700 (MST) Cc: phk@critter.tfs.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com, jehamby@lightside.com, jsigmon@www.hsc.wvu.edu, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <3265C883.41C67EA6@whistle.com> from "Julian Elischer" at Oct 16, 96 10:47:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > >personally I don't think persistance is of any importance > > >but I hear the crowd yelling for their placebo's so I will do it some > > >time.. but it tripples the complexity of the filesystem. > > > > That's not true. Layer it on top of a normal filesystem, use the > > (empty) files down there to store the modes & ownerships. > > that's what I said.. it tripples the complexity.. Which is why persistance should be a non-default option. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 11:03:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA17189 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:03:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.eu.org [193.56.58.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA17182 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.eu.org [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA28767 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:02:48 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id UAA06682 for hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 20:02:02 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.0/keltia-uucp-2.9) id TAA16530; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:32:44 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199610171732.TAA16530@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:32:43 +0200 From: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) In-Reply-To: <199610170803.KAA02587@ra.dkuug.dk>; from sos@freebsd.org on Oct 17, 1996 10:03:32 +0200 References: <199610170726.AAA27718@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> <199610170803.KAA02587@ra.dkuug.dk> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.47.13 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT ctm#2584 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to sos@freebsd.org: > It will be, John Polstra (our ELF guru :) ), will put in the > support for it, we just need brandelf to "brand" binaries > coming from the unwashed masses... I've been contacted by someone I supposed to be an OpenBSD guy (Theo was in Cc:) about ELF binaries recognition. I've directed him to John and you. Has anyone contacted Linus for the same problem ? It would be nice if every free UNIX could use the same method. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 2.2-CURRENT #25: Tue Oct 15 21:13:57 MET DST 1996 From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 11:03:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA17242 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:03:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA17220; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:03:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA19045; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:59:30 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:59:30 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199610171759.LAA19045@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: "Marty Leisner" Cc: phk@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: enum considered bad ? In-Reply-To: <9610171708.AA28362@gnu.sdsp.mc.xerox.com> References: <2022.845535270@critter.tfs.com> <9610171708.AA28362@gnu.sdsp.mc.xerox.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Marty Leisner writes: > > > > I've noticed that "enum" is hardly ever used in C programs, is this > > because people consider it a bad idea or because they havn't really > > got the swing of it ? > > You mean instead of #define...? > > Its an excellent idea...I saw it in a Doug McIlroy Computing Systems > article, and he explained it to me. > > I never saw it documented any (why to use enum's for constants). In C++ it's really the only way to have 'static' constants that don't have to be initialized inside of class definitions, which you can do also do comparison's against and have type-checking. Nate ---------- cut here ------------ /* Quick and dirty. Forgive the obnoxious mix of C/C++ libraries */ #include #include class foo { public: foo(const char *); void print(void); private: enum { MIN_LEN = 0, MAX_LEN = 500 }; char buff[MAX_LEN]; }; foo::foo(const char *str) { // Null terminate buff[0] = '\0'; if ( ::strlen(str) <= MAX_LEN ) ::strcpy(buff, str); return; } void foo::print(void) { cout << buff << "\n"; } int main() { foo A("Hello World"); A.print(); return 1; } From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 11:05:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA17494 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:05:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA17485; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:05:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA06082; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:03:26 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610171803.LAA06082@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: enum considered bad ? To: luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it (Luigi Rizzo) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:03:25 -0700 (MST) Cc: phk@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610170804.JAA05315@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> from "Luigi Rizzo" at Oct 17, 96 09:04:01 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I've noticed that "enum" is hardly ever used in C programs, is this > > because people consider it a bad idea or because they havn't really > > got the swing of it ? > > isn't it more a compatibility issue with old compilers which do not > support it ? Old compilers support enum... unless you are talking about "really old compilers". Old compilers didn't dictate option base -- enum was only guaranteed to be monotonically increasing if no assigned value was used; I have seen implementations which started at 0 and other whichstarted at 1. The real problem is probably that is is not a defined sized type. Other than the fact that it is signed (K&R requires this for its sample code), the size is undefined. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 11:08:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA17691 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:08:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA17683 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:08:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA06096; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:07:27 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610171807.LAA06096@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: POSIX TEST SUITE To: ache@nagual.ru (=?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?=) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:07:27 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610171056.OAA00610@nagual.ru> from "=?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?=" at Oct 17, 96 02:56:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I now have a copy of "Official NIST-PCTS:151-2 Version 1.8, 10/1/95", > > the National Institute of STandards and Technology POSIX Conformance > > Test Suite. > > Terry, could you please run this test suit privately on your > -current machine and send us exception list which it find? Of course. I need to get TET up first. I *know* there will be exceptions in signal and tty handling; I *expect* other problem areas as well (times updates, etc.). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 11:10:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA17805 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:10:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA17799 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:10:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailbox.mcs.com (Mailbox.mcs.com [192.160.127.87]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id NAA26716; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:10:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mailbox.mcs.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.15) id ; Thu, 17 Oct 96 13:10 CDT Received: (from karl@localhost) by Jupiter.Mcs.Net (8.8.Beta.6/8.8.Beta.3) id NAA00720; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:10:19 -0500 (CDT) From: Karl Denninger Message-Id: <199610171810.NAA00720@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Subject: Re: Recent hacking (was Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question) To: michaelh@cet.co.jp (Michael Hancock) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:10:19 -0500 (CDT) Cc: dfr@render.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Michael Hancock" at Oct 18, 96 01:45:07 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Doug Rabson wrote: > > > It would be extremely helpful if those of you who have NFS problems to > > actually get your hands into the code and figure out what is happening in > > your environment. I know this is not always possible but certainly some > > of you can. A good example here is Hidetoshi Shimokawa who had a problem > > with write performance, got into the code and found a solution. This has > > two benefits: better performance for NFS and one more person who > > understands (some of) how this monster works. > > The debugging process of that thread and the SYN stuff was pretty > enjoyable. I was deleting through most of the other stuff and there was a > lot of stuff to delete recently. > > Unfortunately, I deleted the early background of the "Disappearing > Directory Problem". Which I didn't notice was interesting until the tail > end of the thread. > > Karl, would you mind recapping where you are with the "getcwd" thing? > > Regards, > > > Mike Hancock Sure. Background: Server is a BSDI 2.0 machine Client is a FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT system Symptom: Randomly, "getcwd()" fails. Analysis thus far: The search up-directory in "getcwd()" walks up the directory tree from "." to the root (determined by the device numbers and inodes for root when it gets there) looking at each path component and inserting it in the returned string. Thus, what happens in getcwd() is this: Save our inode number Open ".." Read through it, looking for the inode number. Save the path component Iterate until you reach "/" Return the path to the user. Now, some problems we've found. 1) When it fails, the up-movement works but the inode number is NOT seen in the FIRST component when the directory read is performed. (ie: the directory is "/user/contrib/swilson", the first component is 'swilson' and that is not found at the first "step-up". 2) A bug in libc() was found where the path was not being null-terminated, which led to comparisons looking for really bizarre names (ie: 1024-byte random strings). We thought this might be the cause of the problem, but it wasn't. I have send in a commit (already accepted) to fix this. 3) Two consecutive "mv"s (rename to a different name, then back) clear the problem on that given directory - but it does eventually come back. 4) The problem is *random* and comes and goes for a given directory. That it exists one minute does not imply that it will 2 minutes later. 5) Some people have reported that if they actually do a "ls" of the directory up one level, the affected paths are now showing up. I've not been able to nail this, but its consistent with the failure noted in (1) above. Current speculation is that this is a vnode cache handling problem of some kind, where the vnode for the desired directory is being "flushed" but never reloaded into the cache. We're still investigating and searching for the root cause. Note that this appears to happen on directories with LARGE numbers of subdirectory entries -- and not on ones with small numbers of directories. I've never seen it occur, for example, on MY home directory -- but I'm on a disk pack with maybe 20 directories at the same level that I'm on. The places where it happens frequently have perhaps 3,000 - 4,000 directories at the same level, which is common on our big user disks. That's what we know right now. BTW, the heuristic in getcwd() needs some work, but I'm not sure how to accomplish it as of yet. The reason is that we'd REALLY like to be able to protect the directories involved from a listing -- that is, make them mode 711. However, doing this causes logins to fail and all the shells to bitch loudly. An example: / - 755 /user - 755 /user/contrib - 711 /user/contrib/who-am-i - 700 The user is "who-am-i", and in that directory. getcwd() will return an error in this environment, as when it tries to READ /user/contrib to find the inode match for the "who-am-i" component it is unable to open that directory for this purpose. I'm doing a brain-search on ways to make it possible to protect things in this fashion and still have the getcwd() call succeed, but I don't know if its even possible. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - The Finest Internet Connectivity http://www.mcs.net/~karl | T1 from $600 monthly; speeds to DS-3 available | 23 Chicagoland Prefixes, 13 ISDN, much more Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| Email to "info@mcs.net" WWW: http://www.mcs.net/ Fax: [+1 312 248-9865] | Home of Chicago's only FULL Clarinet feed! From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 11:15:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA18099 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:15:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA18094 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:15:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA22766; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:14:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610171814.LAA22766@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Terry Lambert cc: jdw@wwwi.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:52:15 PDT." <199610171752.KAA06027@phaeton.artisoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:14:42 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of Terry Lambert : > > > > "CONTRIBUTE, PAY or SHUT UP! (in order of my preference)" > > > > > > Then you shouldn't call it FreeBSD, because it isn't. You should > > > call it "MembersOnlyBSD." > > > > > > I was under the mistaken impression that the core team might be > > > starting to forget that there are users out there. You have made > > > it clear that in fact it is because you are pretending you don't > > > have users. > > > > It is a matter of what we can do and the resources that we > > have available -- that is all . > > No it's not. It is the difference between an entrepeneurship (16-22 > participants, max) and a small business (100-150 participants, max) > and a medium business (1200-2500 participants, max). > I don't think that the above is the case. Clearly, FreeBSD is available for any large corporation to take charget of it. And the "club membershib" syndrome if it gets on the way it can be side step by way of providing patches or separate distributions. Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 11:17:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA18265 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:17:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cabri.obs-besancon.fr (cabri.obs-besancon.fr [193.52.184.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA18255 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:17:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by cabri.obs-besancon.fr (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA15836; Thu, 17 Oct 96 20:23:41 +0100 Date: Thu, 17 Oct 96 20:23:41 +0100 Message-Id: <9610171923.AA15836@cabri.obs-besancon.fr> From: Jean-Marc Zucconi To: jkh@time.cdrom.com Cc: handy@sag.space.lockheed.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3664.845570375@time.cdrom.com> (jkh@time.cdrom.com) Subject: Re: 2.2-961006-SNAP keyboard lockup X-Mailer: Emacs Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> Jordan K Hubbard writes: >> I do occasionally have keyboard lockups too, but only under X. I'm not >> sure that mine is a FreeBSD problem however -- I'm running Xaccel. If I >> log out my session (The mouse still works) and log back in, I find that I >> have control of the keyboard again. (I run 960801-SNAP.) > When it locks up, is it possible to run this from a mouse menu button > or something and see if it fixes it? > echo "set ipending=2" | gdb -k -w /kernel /dev/mem >/dev/null 2>&1 > I have the same problem, but it only happens when I xmodmap the > keyboard to swap my capslock and DEL keys. Before I did this (the > result of switching keyboards to one which didn't do it in hardware), > I never had a problem at all. I also have this problem, and it is always caused by hitting the NumLock key (it is remapped to KP_F1). This occurs more frequently when the disk activity is high. 'xset r' always solve the problem. > Jordan Jean-Marc _____________________________________________________________________________ Jean-Marc Zucconi Observatoire de Besancon F 25010 Besancon cedex PGP Key: finger jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr ============================================================================= From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 11:25:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA18750 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:25:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA18743 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:25:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA06174; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:22:31 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610171822.LAA06174@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: 2.2-961014-SNAP install problem To: kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (Christoph Kukulies) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:22:31 -0700 (MST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610171327.OAA29987@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> from "Christoph Kukulies" at Oct 17, 96 02:27:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I tried to install (skipping kernel config) 2.2-961014-SNAP on > a PPro-200 (ASUS P6NP5, 32MB, NCR BIOS, Quantum Atlas 2GB,\ > first PCI device IDE, second SCSI) > > The partition editor barfed at my disk geometry and > decided to take 2050/64/32 instead of the > native geometry of 3925/10/107. Trying to enforce > the latter (G option) doesn't seem possible. I'm curious: how do you propose to represent 107 in the 5 bits availble at the DOS INT 13 "raw read" interface which the boot blocks must use to read the data off the disk? How do you propose to represent it in the C/H/S storage area of the DOS partition table entry on the disk itself? A disk with that geometry must be, by definition, translated by the controller if the hardware is capable of supporting DOS at all. > After a first seemingly successful install of the filesystems > and extract from ftp.de.freebsd,org I got this > infamous 'Missing Operating System'. > > I'm clueless at the moment. A send install got hung > eternally at the box 'Copying device files' This is because you multiply the C/H/S value in the partition table by the drive geometry to get an absolute sector offset. This absolute sector offset is used as an input to the protected mode driver, which doesn't know about C/H/S (which is an artifact of the controller BIOS and/or a TSR, like the one installed by OnTrack's DiskManager v6.x or 7.x to handle LBA drives... ie: there is *always* translation to make the INT 13 interface happy. The "Missing Operating System" message comes from the first stage boot on the disk, which uses INT 13 I/O to load the DOS partition table, and then used the C/H/S values from the DOS partition table get the second stage boot track. Clearly, the geomtery that FreeBSD used did not match the actual translated geometry in use by the INT 13 interface (as I said before: because of C/H/S bit limitations, there *MUST* be translation). When the boot code wen to read the second stage boot code, it did not find a valid boot track. This probably means that the install wrote to some unknown area of your disk. This could happen if: 1) The drive uses non-linear BIOS translation to institute software sector sparing. 2) The drive has an LBA TSR tat is an INT 13 reirector, but BSD doesn't recognize the redirector (currently, FreeBSD only undestrands OnTrack's TSR, which is known to be offset 64 sectors into the disk). If this is the case, then the FreeBSD partition won't show up when you boot DOS from the hard drive and runfdisk, because it will have written the partition table in the tSR instead of the relocated partition table which is being used by the first stage boot. 3) The geometry assumptions were wrong. This will typically happen *every* time for ESDI drives and much older hardware that doesn't use the 64 head, 32 sector translation defaults (and the however many cylinders is necessaary to map the disk space). If the geometry assumptions are wrong, and there is not a TSR boot track ont he front of the disk (or it's ONTrack so FreeBSD recognizes it), then you can find out the correct geometry to use by downloading the DOS version of "pfdisk", booting DOS *OFF*THE*HARD*DRIVE* to ensure any INT 13 redirector is installed (a boot floppy won't insteall the hard drive INT 13 redirector, if any), and run pfdisk. It will report the geometry you should tell FreeBSD. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 11:41:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA20150 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA20144 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA06245; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:37:21 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610171837.LAA06245@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:37:21 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nate@mt.sri.com, jehamby@lightside.com, jsigmon@www.hsc.wvu.edu, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <4196.845574721@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Oct 17, 96 10:52:01 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > If the argument is acceptable for core team members to use, it's > > acceptable for non-core-team members. Clearly, the converse is > > true: if the argument is unacceptable for non-core memebrs, it's > > unacceptable for everyone. Including you. Including me. Including > > If only life were that conveniently boolean. If only we were a nation of laws. ...wait a minute! We are! Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 11:41:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA20180 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:41:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA20173 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:41:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA06227; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:36:07 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610171836.LAA06227@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:36:06 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nate@mt.sri.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com, jehamby@lightside.com, jsigmon@www.hsc.wvu.edu, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610171744.LAA18866@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Oct 17, 96 11:44:47 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > [ Me breaking the tree in the name of 'progress', but passing off the > responsibility of fixing it on others. > ] > > > > Needless to say, this attitude won't buy me any friends. > > > > Nonsense. I fully support you, if you can show that this is truly "the > > right direction". I kind of doubt you can do that, but I'm willing > > to give you the benefit of the doubt. > > It *is* the right direction, but it might not be the 'best' > implementation. (As a matter of fact, it isn't. :) > > Doing things for the 'right reason' is *rarely* a good way to run a > business. It is if they are the right things... Guy Kawasaki in _The Macintosh Way_ made the following distinctions: 1) Doing the wrong thing the wrong way 2) Doing the right thing the wrong way 3) Doing the wrong thing the right way 4) Doing the right thing the right way Your change, since you've characterized it as "not the best implementation", falls into category 2. ISO 9000 for the sake of the process rather than for the sake of the result, falls into category 3 (for the record, I would never suggest ISO 9000 simply to get ISO 9000). Many people see a problem with the FreeBSD process architecture (the architecture of the process whereby FreeBSD is worked on, not the architecture of processes which are running within the OS). That places FreeBSD firmly in category 1 or category 2. We should all agree (if we are in fact sane) that we want to be in category 4. Now, you've put up several strawmen: so what would you suggest as the best method of moving the FreeBSD process architecture into category 4? > > We all know that true progrees comes only trough revolution, not evolution; > > if we didn't believe this, we'd all be doing our research SCO, since > > their CDROM is $20 cheaper than the FreeBSD CDROM. > > And the fact that you can't do research w/out access to source code > makes it almost wholly impossible. Really depends on if you have a source license for SVR4 (some of us do), and if you are totally unwilling to consider Linux or one of the other BSD's (some of us aren't). Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 11:48:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA21029 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:48:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA21005 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:48:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id NAA01021; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:46:49 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610171846.NAA01021@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 To: phk@critter.tfs.com (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:46:49 -0500 (CDT) Cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <3823.845574329@critter.tfs.com> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at Oct 17, 96 07:45:29 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > In message <199610171612.LAA00599@brasil.moneng.mei.com>, Joe Greco writes: > > >This is not a FreeBSD problem. However, there are days when I really wish > >that "distfiles" were somehow managed differently, so that this kind of > >thing did not happen. > > Well, make a server that does nothing but > while true > do > sup supfile-cvs-ports > cd /usr/ports > cvs -q update -P -d > make -k fetch > done > > then we know where we can find it :-) I am not clear on how that resolves the problem. I can fetch the files until I am blue in the face, but six months from now, when goodytoy.tgz has gone from Rev 1 to Rev 6.66 without a change in filename, what does it do for me? :-( ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 11:56:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA21455 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:56:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.50.29]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA21450 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:55:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA06086; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:44:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610171844.LAA06086@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:44:01 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:32:43 +0200 roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) wrote: > Has anyone contacted Linus for the same problem ? It would be nice if every > free UNIX could use the same method. As I stated in a previous mail to this list, Matt Thomas and I had this discussion with Linus. He simply wasn't interested. His way to make it all work properly was to make all of the ABIs look like Linux. Eventually, the thread turned into "why making all ABIs look like Linux was not an acceptable solution". Matt's idea was to create a standard for denoting OS-ness of an ELF executable, which could eventually be proposed to commercial vendors. Personally, I think it'd be great to have a way to distingish between the *BSD flavors. (I'm no longer so enthusiastic about expending the effort to include Linux on this, given Linus's attitude toward the problem.) Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: 408.866.1912 NAS: M/S 258-6 Work: 415.604.0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: 415.428.6939 From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 11:57:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA21614 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:57:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sag.space.lockheed.com (sag.space.lockheed.com [192.68.162.134]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA21608 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:57:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by sag.space.lockheed.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/21Nov95-0423PM) id AA01242; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:57:45 -0700 Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:57:45 -0700 (PDT) From: "Brian N. Handy" To: Mark Mayo Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GIMP problems In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Files: The truth is out there Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > [Gimp woes....] > >I was going to compile the thing, but I don't have Motif.. Which version did you try? Are you trying to use the released version 0.54 or one of the development versions? The development versions don't require Motif. I haven't futzed with it in a while but last I did (~ 1 month ago) there were still some problems with it hanging and dropping into the debugger pretty routinely. I'm not on the e-mail list for it but I surmise that one of these days it'll start shaping up. Regards, Brian From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 11:58:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA21657 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:58:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA21652 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA06293; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:55:26 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610171855.LAA06293@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:55:26 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, jdw@wwwi.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610171814.LAA22766@rah.star-gate.com> from "Amancio Hasty" at Oct 17, 96 11:14:42 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > It is a matter of what we can do and the resources that we > > > have available -- that is all . > > > > No it's not. It is the difference between an entrepeneurship (16-22 > > participants, max) and a small business (100-150 participants, max) > > and a medium business (1200-2500 participants, max). > > > > I don't think that the above is the case. Clearly, FreeBSD is available > for any large corporation to take charget of it. This would be topologically equivalent to a "split". > And the "club membershib" syndrome if it gets on the way it can be side step > by way of providing patches or separate distributions. Also a "split". Why is is that everyone thinks that "If I run the experiment, I'll get the the results I want instead of the results dictated by the laws of nature that everyone before me has obtained when they run the experiment"? This "experiment" has already been run 4 times in BSD land: 1) Jolitz vs. CSRG 2) NetBSD vs. Jolitz 3) FreeBSD vs. Jolitz 4) OpenBSD vs. NetBSD Tell me, how you can reasonably expect the results of a fifth run: 5) ??? vs. FreeBSD To be any different than any previous run? How can you expect to avoid: [6+n]) ???[ n+1] vs. ???[ n] Do you not accept proof by induction? Isn't it obvious to you that: Given a set of sets of individuals with divergent goals a, b, and c: Q = { { a}, { b}, { c} } If there is to be a "split": R = { { a}, { b} } S = { { c} } That the smaller (break-away) set will contain a higher proportion of individuals with a tendency to break away? Isn't it obvious that societies, defined in terms of sets of individuals with common goals, are fractal in nature? Further, is it not obvious that any group of N individuals can be said to have at minimum some set of N-1 goals in conflict? Further, is it not obvious therefore that any set of individuals which splits will therefore have a higher tendency towards future splits? And that therefore in any population of diverging sets, we can expect to see an expotential increase in the amount of divergence over time? Why do you think I disagree so loudly, yet don't go off and form "TerryBSD", where I can run the same show by the same rules until the inherenet structural limits force "TerryBSD" to fragment as well? Hint: Societies are subject to statistical laws, and I'm not stupid. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 11:59:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA21720 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:59:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA21713 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:59:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id NAA01093; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:58:18 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610171858.NAA01093@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: SLIP speed To: ttam@mail.iidpwr.com (Tony Tam) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:58:17 -0500 (CDT) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <96Oct16.180701pdt.15362@mail.iidpwr.com> from "Tony Tam" at Oct 16, 96 06:08:34 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Hackers, > > Could anybody tell me what is the minimum response time on an SLIP > or PPP circuit in order to make TELNET works reliable? Telnet should work fine over just about any reasonable IP connection. You do want a RTT that is not very large. I personally start to notice it when the RTT is > 200ms or so... it just does not keep up very well with my typing. You could probably run SLIP at 2400 baud and get an okay IP connection, but telnet would seem very doggy and slow. ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 12:04:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA22112 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:04:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA22107 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:04:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA04750; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:01:34 -0700 (PDT) To: Terry Lambert cc: nate@mt.sri.com, jehamby@lightside.com, jsigmon@www.hsc.wvu.edu, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:37:21 PDT." <199610171837.LAA06245@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:01:34 -0700 Message-ID: <4748.845578894@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > If only we were a nation of laws. > > ...wait a minute! We are! Now I *know* you've gone off the deep end. You'll be dragging out Norman Rockwell pictures of a smiling mom holding an apple pie and posing in front of a tractor next, if this inexplicable attack of 50's regress doesn't release you from its grip. A nation of laws! Ha ha! These crazy kids! Where they get such idealistic notions from, I just don't know. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 12:12:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA22646 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.50.29]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA22639; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:12:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA06276; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:00:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610171900.MAA06276@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: Guido van Rooij , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@netbsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:00:53 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ FYI, brought this discussion into more apropos venues... ] On Thu, 17 Oct 1996 20:41:14 +0200 Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > Modified: lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c > > Log: > > When freeing buffers in the db routines, also zeroize them > > This should solve the bug where a coredumping ftpd reveals > > encrypted passwords. > > Obtained from: OpenBSD > > Isn't this a pezzimization of rank ? I mean there are many uses of this > that do not need this... I sort of question the value of this change, myself. Consider: a) If the encrypted strings are in the buffers, the executable is running with euid == 0. b) Under NetBSD, if ruid != euid (i.e. Joe User running a setuid 0 program), a core will not be dumped. c) Under NetBSD, the permissions on core files are 600, owned by the euid of the process. So, given (b), a program run by Joe User, with entrypted strings in the buffer, will not drop a core file. Given (c), if the program is run by root, and it drops a core file, only root can read it. bzero'ing a hash buffer is not a complete solution to the problem, since the process may contain other potentially sensitive data in its address space. What you really want to do is protect the cores. Looking at the FreeBSD kern_sig.c:coredump(), it does do some uid sanity checking, but NetBSD added some additional checks in revision 1.55 ... you might want to peek at the current NetBSD sys/kern/kern_sig.c Ciao. Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: 408.866.1912 NAS: M/S 258-6 Work: 415.604.0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: 415.428.6939 From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 12:16:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA22885 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:16:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bacall.lodgenet.com (bacall.lodgenet.com [205.138.147.242]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA22870 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by bacall.lodgenet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA23859 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:16:17 -0500 Received: from garbo.lodgenet.com(204.124.123.250) by bacall via smap (V1.3) id sma023834; Thu Oct 17 14:16:07 1996 Received: from jake.lodgenet.com (jake.lodgenet.com [204.124.120.30]) by garbo.lodgenet.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA04271 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:16:08 -0500 Received: from jake.lodgenet.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jake.lodgenet.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA17437; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:16:04 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199610171916.OAA17437@jake.lodgenet.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Mark Mayo cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: GIMP problems In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:04:33 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:16:03 -0500 From: "Eric L. Hernes" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mark Mayo writes: > >Hi there, I was wondering if anyone is successfully using "The GIMP" on >2.2-augest-SNAP ?? I donwloaded their 2.2 binary dist. but it core dumps >on me with a "bad system call" as soon as I try to create a new file (the >button bar thing appears, but I can't do anything..) I also tried the 2.1 >dist. and it does the same thing. bad system call? Just a guess here, you don't have SYSV_{SHM,SEM,MSG} options in your kernel do you? I'm using: options SYSVSHM options SYSVSEM options SYSVMSG options SHMMAXPGS=4096 options "SHMSEG=128" in my kernel, seems to work ok. > >I was going to compile the thing, but I don't have Motif.. > >-Mark > >------------------------------------------- >| Mark Mayo mark@quickweb.com | >| C-Soft www.quickweb.com | >------------------------------------------- >"To iterate is human, to recurse divine." > - L. Peter Deutsch > > eric. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 12:23:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA23322 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:23:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA23314 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:23:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA06386; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:19:58 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610171919.MAA06386@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:19:58 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nate@mt.sri.com, jehamby@lightside.com, jsigmon@www.hsc.wvu.edu, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <4748.845578894@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Oct 17, 96 12:01:34 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > If only we were a nation of laws. > > > > ...wait a minute! We are! > > Now I *know* you've gone off the deep end. You'll be dragging out > Norman Rockwell pictures of a smiling mom holding an apple pie and > posing in front of a tractor next, if this inexplicable attack of 50's > regress doesn't release you from its grip. > > A nation of laws! Ha ha! These crazy kids! Where they get such > idealistic notions from, I just don't know. Read most everything by John Locke, and Rosseau's "The Social Contract". Any volunteer organization invokes and instantiates a "private law" system. The United States is a "volunteer organization", where the members of the society volunteer to be governed by its laws. Despite recent attempts to export US laws to other countries, US law remains a "private law" system, by virtue of its non-universality. "Govenments derive their right to govern from the governed"... one of the "truths we hold to be self-evident". The society of FreeBSD hackers or (its subset, the society of FreeBSD core team members) is still a society, no less so for its size. I can describe "games theory" and "the need for fun" and how those philosophies interact to form societies consisting of members who are voluntary participants only. If you like, I can start your education with an analysis of team sports, and why a universally acknowledged and uniformly enforced rules set promotes individual participation. People play games *because* the rules are not as arbitrary as those they face in "real life". Everyone knows when a rules violation occurs, and everyone enforces against violations. It is a private law system which promotes predictability -- and allows us to significantly prune the number of things we must worry about. This reduction in complexity, in turn, results in a reduction of stress. Stress avoidance. In other words, "fun". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 12:35:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA24286 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:35:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail13.digital.com (mail13.digital.com [192.208.46.30]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA24273 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:34:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from muggsy.lkg.dec.com by mail13.digital.com (5.65v3.2/1.0/WV) id AA10311; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:24:21 -0400 Received: from whydos.lkg.dec.com by muggsy.lkg.dec.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) with SMTP id AA10949; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:24:19 -0400 Received: from localhost.lkg.dec.com (localhost.lkg.dec.com [127.0.0.1]) by whydos.lkg.dec.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA27242; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:31:45 GMT Message-Id: <199610171531.PAA27242@whydos.lkg.dec.com> X-Authentication-Warning: whydos.lkg.dec.com: Host localhost.lkg.dec.com didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux compat issue(s) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:32:43 +0200." <199610171732.TAA16530@keltia.freenix.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:31:44 +0000 From: Matt Thomas Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In <199610171732.TAA16530@keltia.freenix.fr> , you wrote: > According to sos@freebsd.org: > > It will be, John Polstra (our ELF guru :) ), will put in the > > support for it, we just need brandelf to "brand" binaries > > coming from the unwashed masses... > > I've been contacted by someone I supposed to be an OpenBSD guy (Theo was in > Cc:) about ELF binaries recognition. I've directed him to John and you. I've been involved with the same issue re; NetBSD. NetBSD/alpha is about ready to switch to ELF once we figure a way to uniquely brand NetBSD ELF files. > Has anyone contacted Linus for the same problem ? It would be nice if every > free UNIX could use the same method. Linus doesn't care. I had this discussion about a month ago. -- Matt Thomas Internet: matt@3am-software.com 3am Software Foundry WWW URL: http://www.3am-software.com/bio/matt.html Westford, MA Disclaimer: I disavow all knowledge of this message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 12:43:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA24782 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.230.177]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA24771; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA04343; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:41:55 +0200 (MET DST) To: Terry Lambert cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:19:58 PDT." <199610171919.MAA06386@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:41:54 +0200 Message-ID: <4341.845581314@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199610171919.MAA06386@phaeton.artisoft.com>, Terry Lambert writes: >The society of FreeBSD hackers or (its subset, the society of FreeBSD >core team members) is still a society, no less so for its size. > >I can describe "games theory" and "the need for fun" and how those >philosophies interact to form societies consisting of members who Terry, we're most impressed, but you have just broken one of the few laws we really have in this society: "The mailinglists are for FreeBSD related issues only!" The punishment will be that you have to keep all your emails shorter than 10 lines for the next two weeks. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 12:58:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA25422 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:58:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA25406 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:58:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.7.6/8.6.9) id FAA10320; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 05:47:43 +1000 Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 05:47:43 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199610171947.FAA10320@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: ache@nagual.ru, terry@lambert.org Subject: Re: POSIX TEST SUITE Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From owner-freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Fri Oct 18 05:35:45 1996 >Received: from x.physics.usyd.edu.au (x.physics.usyd.edu.au [129.78.129.25]) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.7.6/8.6.9) with SMTP id FAA09847 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 05:30:38 +1000 >Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.18]) by x.physics.usyd.edu.au (8.6.8/8.6.5) with ESMTP id FAA24367; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 05:25:17 +1000 >Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) > by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA17990; > Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:13:15 -0700 (PDT) >Received: (from root@localhost) > by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA17691 > for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:08:58 -0700 (PDT) >Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) > by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA17683 > for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:08:56 -0700 (PDT) >Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA06096; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:07:27 -0700 >From: Terry Lambert >Message-Id: <199610171807.LAA06096@phaeton.artisoft.com> >Subject: Re: POSIX TEST SUITE >To: ache@nagual.ru (=?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?=) >Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:07:27 -0700 (MST) >Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org >In-Reply-To: <199610171056.OAA00610@nagual.ru> from "=?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?=" at Oct 17, 96 02:56:56 pm >X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org >X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Precedence: bulk >Status: R > >> > I now have a copy of "Official NIST-PCTS:151-2 Version 1.8, 10/1/95", >> > the National Institute of STandards and Technology POSIX Conformance >> > Test Suite. >> >> Terry, could you please run this test suit privately on your >> -current machine and send us exception list which it find? > >Of course. I need to get TET up first. > >I *know* there will be exceptions in signal and tty handling; I >*expect* other problem areas as well (times updates, etc.). > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org >--- >Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present >or previous employers. > From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 13:05:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA25901 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:05:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gvr.win.tue.nl (root@gvr.win.tue.nl [131.155.210.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA25888; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:05:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gvr.win.tue.nl (8.6.13/1.53) id WAA11623; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:04:45 +0200 From: guido@gvr.win.tue.nl (Guido van Rooij) Message-Id: <199610172004.WAA11623@gvr.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c To: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:04:45 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: phk@critter.tfs.com, guido@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@netbsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610171900.MAA06276@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> from Jason Thorpe at "Oct 17, 96 12:00:53 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > bzero'ing a hash buffer is not a complete solution to the problem, > since the process may contain other potentially sensitive data > in its address space. What you really want to do is protect > the cores. > And what about a user attaching a debugger to a running ftpd... -Guido From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 13:08:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA26053 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:08:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from iafnl.es.iaf.nl (uucp@iafnl.es.iaf.nl [195.108.17.20]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA26042 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:08:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by iafnl.es.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA08576 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.org); Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:07:24 +0200 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.7.5/8.6.12) id VAA01397; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:49:09 +0100 (MET) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199610172049.VAA01397@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: volunteering (was: putting 'whining' to work) To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:49:09 +0100 (MET) Cc: FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <1236.845514967@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Oct 16, 96 06:16:07 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote... > > So, lets assume I'd like to help in testing. What would be a > > workable way to contribute? Would I have to track -current? > > That would be the minimum requirement for at least *one* of your > machines, e.g. the release builder. > > What a lot of folks have been doing, and it makes a good sense, is > tracking the CVS repository and whenever I say that I'm making a > release, they make one too and test from that one. That saves them > from having to FTP my entire release across the pond, and they can > even make small test alterations to their local release build when > working collaboratively with me to solve a problem. OK. My assumption proved valid. > If you wanted to be truly labor-saving about it, I guess one person in > each network community could build the release and the others could > use the single central copy for testing. This would then be a sort of test-snaps ;-) And it would sure mean a lot of work for this test-manager. How big would such a test-snap be (in Mb) ? Assuming bin only, etc. Wilko _ ____________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl - Arnhem, The Netherlands |/|/ / / /( (_) Do, or do not. There is no 'try' - Yoda -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 13:19:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA26745 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA26726 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:19:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id PAA01378; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:16:51 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610172016.PAA01378@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:16:51 -0500 (CDT) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610171855.LAA06293@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Oct 17, 96 11:55:26 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > And that therefore in any population of diverging sets, we can expect > to see an expotential increase in the amount of divergence over time? Sounds like Linux to me!! > Why do you think I disagree so loudly, yet don't go off and form > "TerryBSD", where I can run the same show by the same rules until > the inherenet structural limits force "TerryBSD" to fragment as well? It won't .. because it's TerryBSD. > Hint: Societies are subject to statistical laws, and I'm not stupid. :-) ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 13:40:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA28264 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:40:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA28255 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:40:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA06611; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:39:26 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610172039.NAA06611@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question To: phk@critter.tfs.com (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:39:25 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <4341.845581314@critter.tfs.com> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at Oct 17, 96 09:41:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > "The mailinglists are for FreeBSD related issues only!" > > The punishment will be that you have to keep all your emails shorter than > 10 lines for the next two weeks. The issue of political and architectural control of the FreeBSD development process *is* FreeBSD related. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 13:43:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA28417 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:43:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.230.177]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA28399; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA04501; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:42:12 +0200 (MET DST) To: Terry Lambert cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:39:25 PDT." <199610172039.NAA06611@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:42:12 +0200 Message-ID: <4499.845584932@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199610172039.NAA06611@phaeton.artisoft.com>, Terry Lambert writes: >> "The mailinglists are for FreeBSD related issues only!" >> >> The punishment will be that you have to keep all your emails shorter than >> 10 lines for the next two weeks. > >The issue of political and architectural control of the FreeBSD >development process *is* FreeBSD related. > Terry, the referee said "out" and that means it's "out". -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 13:46:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA28629 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:46:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA28623 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:46:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.7.6/8.6.9) id GAA11694; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 06:43:21 +1000 Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 06:43:21 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199610172043.GAA11694@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: ache@nagual.ru, terry@lambert.org Subject: Re: POSIX TEST SUITE Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I *know* there will be exceptions in signal and tty handling; I >*expect* other problem areas as well (times updates, etc.). These areas should be fairly conformant, since I have run a test suite on them and fixed and fixed many of the problems. My current list of POSIX conformance problems is: signal handling: - for bogus signal numbers, sigismember() sometimes completes successfully and returns 1 although the number is not in the set. It must either detect the error and return -1 and not detect the error and return 0. - sleep() interfers with alarm() not only during the sleep but for 1 second after. - when sleep() is interrupted by an alarm, 0 is returned instead of the residual time. tty handling: - EOPNOTSUPP instead of EINVAL is returned for attempts to lock a tty. file times: - atimes and mtimes are marked for update upon unsuccessful completion. - atimes and mtimes for devices on at least ufs file systems are marked for update even before i/o is begun. - ctimes in directories are marked for update by unsuccessful renames. file system: - all syscalls involving pathnames are broken because "" is interpreted as "." instead of being invalid. - writing 0 bytes to a file doesn't always have no effect (it extends the file after an lseek() to past the end). - lseek() on a named pipe doesn't return -1/EISPIPE. - chmod doesn't silently ignore attempts to set the setgid bit by the owner of the file when the owner doesn't have permission to set this bit. - many "constant" pathconf limits aren't constant. other: - many "constant" sysconf limits aren't constant. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 13:58:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA29232 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:58:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA29223 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:58:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id PAA01514; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:56:30 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610172056.PAA01514@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Panic To: steve@news.netdtw.com (Steve Corso) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:56:29 -0500 (CDT) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Steve Corso" at Sep 25, 96 07:15:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Hello Gentlemen, > > I just received the following message from my new LARGE news server that > I have built out of a P6-200 (I believe P55 t2 p4): > > OS is CDROM 2.1.5R > > Panic Unknown/reserve space trap > > Syncing disks No idea. > Any Ideas on this one would be appreciated. > > FYI, not that its related I do have maxusers at 96, CHILD_MAX=128, > OPEN_MAX=128. Box has 4 2GB Segate IDEs, 1st IDE is root/os, second IDE > is news lib, third and fourth are a ccd with the news spool. System has > SMC 10/100 ethernet card. > > System does not keep news for a long time, but has many (30) full > outbound feeds, and about the same inbound feeds. You are using IDE disks?? You have just lost any hope of performance. Dump the IDE crud... get three NCR 810 based controllers.. I like the ASUS SC-200's, wholesale about $60. Get half a dozen or a dozen Seacrate ST31055N 1GB Hawk-2 class drives. VERY fast. Rather pricey. Worth the price. And then go nuts. Trying to run IDE disks on a news server is like trying to cross the continent riding a tricycle. Please get at least a reasonably nice car before contemplating the trip! That may sound brutal but it is very true. I think I will be repeating this until I am in my grave: you have to engineer the system well if you really want to support news. :-) ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 13:59:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA29327 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:59:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA29321 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:59:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA06679; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:57:51 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610172057.NAA06679@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question To: phk@critter.tfs.com (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:57:51 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <4499.845584932@critter.tfs.com> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at Oct 17, 96 10:42:12 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >The issue of political and architectural control of the FreeBSD > >development process *is* FreeBSD related. > > Terry, the referee said "out" and that means it's "out". Under what contract or implied contract are you claiming referee status? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 14:21:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA00762 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:21:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA00756 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:21:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA20617; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:19:51 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:19:51 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199610172119.PAA20617@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: C++ question Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Any C++ gurus out here? If so, here's a small snippet of a program that I am having some questions on. ------------cut here--------------- class foo { public: foo() {}; private: struct A { int bigint; }; struct B { A *ptr; // Sun's C++ compiler doesn't like this }; A myints; A *getint(void); }; #if __GNUC__ foo::A * // G++ requires this, but Sun's compiler gets lost #else A * // I prefer G++'s syntax above, but can't for Sun #endif foo::getint(void) { return ( &myints ); } ------------cut here---------------- The above snippet of code compiles fine with g++ and *all* warnings turned on, but gives the following warning with Sun's CC compiler (latest released version). fly:/tmp % CC +w -c grpdgram.cc "grpdgram.cc", line 12: Warning (Anachronism): foo::A is not accessible from foo::B. It's only a warning, but according to the documentation I'm doing something that won't be allowed in future C++ releases. All I'm trying to do is define a structure, and then using the resulting definition in another structure. (It's used for *simple* list processing in the real code, and I have a place-holder for multiple lists in another structure). I know how to get rid of the warnings with the particular application (be more 'object oriented';), but I would think using two structures would be allowed in C++. Any clues? Finally, I find it interesting that G++ and Sun's CC compiler have completely different function declaration syntax when you return structures defined inside the function. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 14:23:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA00897 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:23:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.230.177]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA00871; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:22:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA04580; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:21:47 +0200 (MET DST) To: Terry Lambert cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:57:51 PDT." <199610172057.NAA06679@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:21:47 +0200 Message-ID: <4578.845587307@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199610172057.NAA06679@phaeton.artisoft.com>, Terry Lambert writes: >> >The issue of political and architectural control of the FreeBSD >> >development process *is* FreeBSD related. >> >> Terry, the referee said "out" and that means it's "out". > >Under what contract or implied contract are you claiming referee status? > I am a core team member and you are filling our mailing lists with irrelevant stuff. That's all I need Terry. Now please try to boost your ego in some other forum for the next 3 months, ok ? -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 14:26:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA01130 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:26:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.50.29]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA01121; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:26:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA07806; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:14:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610172114.OAA07806@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: guido@gvr.win.tue.nl (Guido van Rooij) Cc: phk@critter.tfs.com, guido@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@netbsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:14:15 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:04:45 +0200 (MET DST) guido@gvr.win.tue.nl (Guido van Rooij) wrote: > And what about a user attaching a debugger to a running ftpd... Looking at NetBSD's ptrace(2) (see kern/sys_process.c:sys_ptrace()) system call, we see in the PT_ATTACH case that you cannot attach to a process if: (1) it's the process doing the attaching, (2) it's already being traced, (3) it's not owned by you, or is set-id on exec (unless you're root), or, (4) it's init, which controls the security level of the entire system, and the system was not compiled with permanently insecure mode turned on. So, Joe Random User cannot attach to an ftpd. Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: 408.866.1912 NAS: M/S 258-6 Work: 415.604.0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: 415.428.6939 From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 14:56:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA02842 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:56:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cheops.anu.edu.au (avalon@cheops.anu.edu.au [150.203.76.24]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA02835; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:56:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610172156.OAA02835@freefall.freebsd.org> Received: by cheops.anu.edu.au (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA052979402; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 07:56:42 +1000 From: Darren Reed Subject: Re: high resolution text modes To: sos@FreeBSD.org Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 07:56:41 +1000 (EST) Cc: proff@suburbia.net, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610171051.MAA05164@ra.dkuug.dk> from "sos@FreeBSD.org" at Oct 17, 96 12:51:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In some mail from sos@FreeBSD.org, sie said: > > In reply to Julian Assange who wrote: > > > > Success! > > > > I'm now running on a 100x30(16x9 font) 88hz modified FreeBSD syscons.c. > > I still have some issues to address vis automatically changing between > > resolutions on different VT's. Some video cards clocks require > > programming in particular ways. It would be nice if one could do a > > "register dump" of the current mode and save it in an array and later > > restore the values when the VT is again made active. I am not hopeful > > given the hardware dependent manner that many dot clocks are programmed > > in and the use of register extension portals. I suspect that any > > solution would approach the code size of SVGATextMode itself. My > > intention is to remove per-vt resolutions entirely. They seem like > > creeping featurism to me and of little use - I noted a comment in the > > linux kernel code stating that the linux per-vt resolutions which were > > removed for similar reasons. > > Erhm, You are not going to remove anything of that kind from > syscons if thats what you want. I'll provide you with a interface > for doing this if need be, but this will NOT go into syscons, or > I'll resign as its maintainer. Well, how about "option NEW_SYSCONS" for those who'd rather have a 100x30 (or better) console without having to do it per-vt or who want it before multiuser mode ? Darren From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 15:05:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA03208 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:05:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sovcom.kiae.su (sovcom.kiae.su [193.125.152.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA03203; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:05:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sovcom.kiae.su id AA14191 (5.65.kiae-1 ); Fri, 18 Oct 1996 01:00:23 +0300 Received: by sovcom.KIAE.su (UUMAIL/2.0); Fri, 18 Oct 96 01:00:23 +0300 Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.ru (8.7.6/8.7.3) id BAA00344; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 01:57:35 +0400 (MSD) Message-Id: <199610172157.BAA00344@nagual.ru> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c In-Reply-To: <199610172004.WAA11623@gvr.win.tue.nl> from "Guido van Rooij" at "Oct 17, 96 10:04:45 pm" To: guido@gvr.win.tue.nl (Guido van Rooij) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 01:57:34 +0400 (MSD) Cc: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, phk@critter.tfs.com, guido@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@netbsd.org From: "=?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?=" (Andrey A. Chernov) Organization: self X-Class: Fast X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > bzero'ing a hash buffer is not a complete solution to the problem, > > since the process may contain other potentially sensitive data > > in its address space. What you really want to do is protect > > the cores. > > I consider it as a bad move too and performance degradation. Why only DB? Why you don't automatically clear stack too? :-) Passwords can be stored anywhere in the application, and it is per-application task to clear sensetive data anywhere. Please, back out this change. > And what about a user attaching a debugger to a running ftpd... He must be root for that. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://www.nagual.ru/~ache/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 15:08:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA03443 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:08:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rosemary.fsl.noaa.gov (rosemary.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.8.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA03437 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rosemary.fsl.noaa.gov (rosemary.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.8.41]) by rosemary.fsl.noaa.gov (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA00953; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:08:36 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3266AE63.41C67EA6@fsl.noaa.gov> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:08:35 -0600 From: Sean Kelly Organization: NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.1.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nate Williams CC: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: C++ question References: <199610172119.PAA20617@rocky.mt.sri.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nate Williams wrote: > fly:/tmp % CC +w -c grpdgram.cc > "grpdgram.cc", line 12: Warning (Anachronism): foo::A is not accessible from foo::B. A bug in Sun's C++ compiler? Both foo::A and foo::B are in the namespace generated by class foo, so they ought to be visible to each other. -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory Boulder Colorado USA From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 15:09:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA03482 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA03476 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:09:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA21050; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:09:37 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:09:37 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199610172209.QAA21050@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: Sean Kelly Cc: Nate Williams , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: C++ question In-Reply-To: <3266AE63.41C67EA6@fsl.noaa.gov> References: <199610172119.PAA20617@rocky.mt.sri.com> <3266AE63.41C67EA6@fsl.noaa.gov> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sean Kelly writes: > Nate Williams wrote: > > > fly:/tmp % CC +w -c grpdgram.cc > > "grpdgram.cc", line 12: Warning (Anachronism): foo::A is not accessible from foo::B. > > A bug in Sun's C++ compiler? Both foo::A and foo::B are in the > namespace generated by class foo, so they ought to be visible to each > other. I agree, but the compiler notes explicitly (well, not so explicitly) say that newer C++ standards don't allow this. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 15:11:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA03582 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:11:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.eu.org [193.56.58.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA03570 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:11:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.eu.org [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA29188 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:09:49 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id AAA09734 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:09:24 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.0/keltia-uucp-2.9) id AAA22502; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:08:21 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199610172208.AAA22502@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:08:20 +0200 From: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c In-Reply-To: <199610171900.MAA06276@lestat.nas.nasa.gov>; from Jason Thorpe on Oct 17, 1996 12:00:53 -0700 References: <199610171900.MAA06276@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.47.13 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT ctm#2584 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Jason Thorpe: > Given (c), if the program is run by root, and it drops a core file, > only root can read it. A side point: I was able to override a file with a symlink named ftpd.core on a 2.1.0 system... It means that the kernel silently followed the symlink and it is BAD. The "quote pasv" problem (and core) won't happen in 2.2-CURRENT because P_SUGID bit is set but one could probably make some root-owned program and overwrite any file. The code in kern_sig.c doesn't seem to follow symlinks but it did on 2.1.0. Can anyone more knowledgeable with the code confirm please ? FYI: Solaris up to 2.5.1 seems to follow them, pfff. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 2.2-CURRENT #25: Tue Oct 15 21:13:57 MET DST 1996 From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 15:23:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA04365 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:23:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plains.nodak.edu (tinguely@plains.NoDak.edu [134.129.111.64]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA04355; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:23:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tinguely@localhost) by plains.nodak.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) id RAA09577; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:23:18 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:23:18 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Tinguely Message-Id: <199610172223.RAA09577@plains.nodak.edu> To: freebsd-atm@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: custom free for external mbuf Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Religous debate time. :) in sys/mbuf.h the external mbuf is defined : struct m_ext { caddr_t ext_buf; /* start of buffer */ void (*ext_free) /* free routine if not the usual */ __P((caddr_t, u_int)); u_int ext_size; /* size of buffer, for ext_free */ }; (then later we see) #ifdef notyet #define MFREE(m, n) \ { MBUFLOCK(mbstat.m_mtypes[(m)->m_type]--;) \ if ((m)->m_flags & M_EXT) { \ if ((m)->m_ext.ext_free) \ (*((m)->m_ext.ext_free))((m)->m_ext.ext_buf, \ (m)->m_ext.ext_size); \ else \ MCLFREE((m)->m_ext.ext_buf); \ } \ (n) = (m)->m_next; \ FREE((m), mbtypes[(m)->m_type]); \ } (more deleted) from greping the rest of the sources, this is *the* place an external mbuf could call another free routine and it is obviously ifdef out. what I am thinking about doing is making a new breed of mbuf that is prebuilt to look like an external mbuf, but is permanent in that its free routine does not throw away the mbuf external data, mbuf structure, nor the association between mbuf and external data. why do I want these permanent mbufs? because I am working with ATM and I don't want to deal with the allocation, association, tear-down, overhead of many small PDU packets. If I add a new flag entry (say M_PERM) and change the MFREE routine (here I show changes to the "notyet" part of MFREE, the current MFREE changes would be simular): if ((m)->m_flags & M_EXT) { \ + if ((m)->m_flags & M_PERM) { \ + if ((m)->m_ext.ext_free) \ + (*((m)->m_ext.ext_free))((m), \ + (m)->m_ext.ext_size); \ + } \ + else \ if ((m)->m_ext.ext_free) \ (*((m)->m_ext.ext_free))((m)->m_ext.ext_buf, \ (m)->m_ext.ext_size); \ else \ MCLFREE((m)->m_ext.ext_buf); \ } \ (n) = (m)->m_next; \ + if ((m)->m_flags & M_PERM == 0) { \ FREE((m), mbtypes[(m)->m_type]); \ } \ } notice, I need to send the address of the mbuf to my recycle "free" program. and I cannot let it FREE the mbuf lower down in the MFREE routine. with this, I can send these permanent mbufs anywhere a regular external mbuf is used (in protocols like IP stack and sockets). Is there some reason the existing sys/mbuf.h does not allow external mbuf to call the custom ext_free? Does anyone have strong reason to not do this (like those extra instruction will cause significant overhead, etc)? --mark. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 16:02:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA07113 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:02:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sequent.kiae.su (sequent.kiae.su [193.125.152.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA07100; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:02:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sequent.kiae.su id AA29923 (5.65.kiae-2 ); Fri, 18 Oct 1996 02:54:00 +0400 Received: by sequent.KIAE.su (UUMAIL/2.0); Fri, 18 Oct 96 02:53:59 +0400 Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.ru (8.7.6/8.7.3) id CAA00768; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 02:53:02 +0400 (MSD) Message-Id: <199610172253.CAA00768@nagual.ru> Subject: Re: high resolution text modes In-Reply-To: <199610172156.OAA02835@freefall.freebsd.org> from "Darren Reed" at "Oct 18, 96 07:56:41 am" To: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au (Darren Reed) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 02:53:02 +0400 (MSD) Cc: sos@FreeBSD.org, proff@suburbia.net, hackers@FreeBSD.org From: "=?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?=" (Andrey A. Chernov) Organization: self X-Class: Fast X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Erhm, You are not going to remove anything of that kind from > > syscons if thats what you want. I'll provide you with a interface > > for doing this if need be, but this will NOT go into syscons, or > > I'll resign as its maintainer. > > Well, how about "option NEW_SYSCONS" for those who'd rather have a 100x30 > (or better) console without having to do it per-vt or who want it before > multiuser mode ? Soren, as I remember from our private mail, you put global text mode set and global "mouse on" in your TODO list, or I miss something? -- Andrey A. Chernov http://www.nagual.ru/~ache/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 16:12:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA08137 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:12:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gargoyle.bazzle.com ([206.103.246.190]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA08120 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:12:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gargoyle.bazzle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gargoyle.bazzle.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA22780; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:11:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:11:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "Eric J. Chet" To: Nate Williams cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: C++ question In-Reply-To: <199610172119.PAA20617@rocky.mt.sri.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Nate Williams wrote: > Any C++ gurus out here? If so, here's a small snippet of a program that > I am having some questions on. > > #if __GNUC__ > foo::A * // G++ requires this, but Sun's compiler gets lost > #else > A * // I prefer G++'s syntax above, but can't for Sun > #endif > > foo::getint(void) Remember "A" only exists in foo's namespace. The declaration has to be: foo::A* foo::getint(void) If the Sun compiler allows: A* foo::getint(void) it has a problem. Sun's compiler should return something like "A* is undefined". > > The above snippet of code compiles fine with g++ and *all* warnings > turned on, but gives the following warning with Sun's CC compiler > (latest released version). > > fly:/tmp % CC +w -c grpdgram.cc > "grpdgram.cc", line 12: Warning (Anachronism): foo::A is not accessible from foo::B. This is false, foo::A has been defined and is in the same namespace as foo::B. > > It's only a warning, but according to the documentation I'm doing > something that won't be allowed in future C++ releases. I have not seen anything disallowing this in the latest public C++ draft. You can take a look at it: "http://www.cygnus.com/misc/wp/draft" > > All I'm trying to do is define a structure, and then using the resulting > definition in another structure. (It's used for *simple* list > processing in the real code, and I have a place-holder for multiple > lists in another structure). I know how to get rid of the warnings with > the particular application (be more 'object oriented';), but I would > think using two structures would be allowed in C++. Maybe you can give me a little larger view of what your trying to accomplish. I can't remember the last time I had to define two nested structs in a class. I spend my workday doing OO development, implementing in C++, If I can help I will. Peace, Eric J. Chet - ejc@bazzle.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 16:13:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA08222 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA08214 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:13:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA21461; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:13:24 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:13:24 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199610172313.RAA21461@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: "Eric J. Chet" Cc: Nate Williams , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: C++ question In-Reply-To: References: <199610172119.PAA20617@rocky.mt.sri.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Eric J. Chet writes: > On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Nate Williams wrote: > > > Any C++ gurus out here? If so, here's a small snippet of a program that > > I am having some questions on. > > > > #if __GNUC__ > > foo::A * // G++ requires this, but Sun's compiler gets lost > > #else > > A * // I prefer G++'s syntax above, but can't for Sun > > #endif > > > > foo::getint(void) > > Remember "A" only exists in foo's namespace. The declaration > has to be: > > foo::A* foo::getint(void) > > If the Sun compiler allows: > > A* foo::getint(void) > > it has a problem. Sun's compiler should return something like > "A* is undefined". Agreed. I should submit a bug to them, but I don't know where to submit it to. ;( > > The above snippet of code compiles fine with g++ and *all* warnings > > turned on, but gives the following warning with Sun's CC compiler > > (latest released version). > > > > fly:/tmp % CC +w -c grpdgram.cc > > "grpdgram.cc", line 12: Warning (Anachronism): foo::A is not accessible from foo::B. > > This is false, foo::A has been defined and is in the same > namespace as foo::B. I agree. > > It's only a warning, but according to the documentation I'm doing > > something that won't be allowed in future C++ releases. > > I have not seen anything disallowing this in the latest public C++ > draft. You can take a look at it: "http://www.cygnus.com/misc/wp/draft" Thanks for the pointer. [ The rest taken offline ] Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 16:15:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA08344 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:15:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA08328 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:15:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from current1.whistle.com (current1.whistle.com [207.76.205.22]) by alpo.whistle.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA05199; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:12:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3266BCF6.31DFF4F5@whistle.com> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:10:46 -0700 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Poul-Henning Kamp CC: Terry Lambert , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question References: <4578.845587307@critter.tfs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > In message <199610172057.NAA06679@phaeton.artisoft.com>, Terry Lambert writes: > >> >The issue of political and architectural control of the FreeBSD > >> >development process *is* FreeBSD related. > >> > >> Terry, the referee said "out" and that means it's "out". > > > >Under what contract or implied contract are you claiming referee status? > > > > I am a core team member and you are filling our mailing lists with > irrelevant stuff. That's all I need Terry. Now please try to > boost your ego in some other forum for the next 3 months, ok ? poul .. you are unnesessarily harsh some times terry.. can we give this all a rest for a while? we have actual technical problems to worry about.... both of you ... off to your bedrooms, and I don't want to hear from you again until your willing to play nicely! ;-) julian From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 16:46:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA10095 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:46:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vinyl.quickweb.com (vinyl.sentex.ca [206.222.77.8]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA10088 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:46:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (mark@localhost) by vinyl.quickweb.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA20204; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:44:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: vinyl.quickweb.com: mark owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:44:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Mayo To: "Eric L. Hernes" cc: Mark Mayo , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GIMP problems In-Reply-To: <199610171916.OAA17437@jake.lodgenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Eric L. Hernes wrote: > Mark Mayo writes: > > > >Hi there, I was wondering if anyone is successfully using "The GIMP" on > >2.2-augest-SNAP ?? I donwloaded their 2.2 binary dist. but it core dumps > >on me with a "bad system call" as soon as I try to create a new file (the > >button bar thing appears, but I can't do anything..) I also tried the 2.1 > >dist. and it does the same thing. > > bad system call? Just a guess here, you don't have > SYSV_{SHM,SEM,MSG} options in your kernel do you? > > I'm using: > options SYSVSHM > options SYSVSEM > options SYSVMSG > options SHMMAXPGS=4096 > options "SHMSEG=128" Whoops! Geeze, how did that get out of my kernel?! Sorry for the stupid question, but I really didn't even think of this. Does the 2.2x kernel not have these options by default? I was sure they were in my 2.1.5 machine by default, and therefore didn't even look in 2.2.... Now, everthing works fine, and I'm quite impresses by 'The Gimp' . Very neat piece of software. At last, I have a graphics program on my bsd box! Thanx, -mark ------------------------------------------- | Mark Mayo mark@quickweb.com | | C-Soft www.quickweb.com | ------------------------------------------- "To iterate is human, to recurse divine." - L. Peter Deutsch > > in my kernel, seems to work ok. > > > > >I was going to compile the thing, but I don't have Motif.. > > > >-Mark > > > >------------------------------------------- > >| Mark Mayo mark@quickweb.com | > >| C-Soft www.quickweb.com | > >------------------------------------------- > >"To iterate is human, to recurse divine." > > - L. Peter Deutsch > > > > > > eric. > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 17:13:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA11341 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:13:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA11336; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:13:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from current1.whistle.com (current1.whistle.com [207.76.205.22]) by alpo.whistle.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA00336; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:10:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3266C049.2F1CF0FB@whistle.com> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:08:22 -0700 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Tinguely CC: freebsd-atm@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: custom free for external mbuf References: <199610172223.RAA09577@plains.nodak.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mark Tinguely wrote: you are looking at a very old version..... look at 2.2 > > Religous debate time. :) > > in sys/mbuf.h the external mbuf is defined : > > struct m_ext { > caddr_t ext_buf; /* start of buffer */ > void (*ext_free) /* free routine if not the usual */ > __P((caddr_t, u_int)); > u_int ext_size; /* size of buffer, for ext_free */ > }; under 2.2 it is: /* * description of external storage mapped into mbuf, * valid if M_EXT set */ struct m_ext { caddr_t ext_buf; /* start of buffer */ void (*ext_free) /* free routine if not the usual */ __P((caddr_t, u_int)); u_int ext_size; /* size of buffer, for ext_free */ void (*ext_ref) /* add a reference to the ext object */ __P((caddr_t, u_int)); }; (then later we see) > #ifdef notyet > #define MFREE(m, n) \ > { MBUFLOCK(mbstat.m_mtypes[(m)->m_type]--;) \ > if ((m)->m_flags & M_EXT) { \ > if ((m)->m_ext.ext_free) \ > (*((m)->m_ext.ext_free))((m)->m_ext.ext_buf, \ > (m)->m_ext.ext_size); \ > else \ > MCLFREE((m)->m_ext.ext_buf); \ > } \ > (n) = (m)->m_next; \ > FREE((m), mbtypes[(m)->m_type]); \ > } > (more deleted) > > from greping the rest of the sources, this is *the* place an external > mbuf could call another free routine and it is obviously ifdef out. not in 2.2 and it is used heavily by myself > > what I am thinking about doing is making a new breed of mbuf that is > prebuilt to look like an external mbuf, but is permanent in that its free > routine does not throw away the mbuf external data, mbuf structure, nor the > association between mbuf and external data. > > why do I want these permanent mbufs? because I am working with ATM and I don't > want to deal with the allocation, association, tear-down, overhead of many > small PDU packets. sure why not, but don't break what's already there.. also see the method OSF uses which is equally neat, and can use MALLOC'd memory easily for this. (ask matt thomas) > > If I add a new flag entry (say M_PERM) and change the MFREE routine (here > I show changes to the "notyet" part of MFREE, the current MFREE changes > would be simular): > > if ((m)->m_flags & M_EXT) { \ > + if ((m)->m_flags & M_PERM) { \ > + if ((m)->m_ext.ext_free) \ > + (*((m)->m_ext.ext_free))((m), \ > + (m)->m_ext.ext_size); \ > + } \ > + else \ > if ((m)->m_ext.ext_free) \ > (*((m)->m_ext.ext_free))((m)->m_ext.ext_buf, \ > (m)->m_ext.ext_size); \ > else \ > MCLFREE((m)->m_ext.ext_buf); \ > } \ > (n) = (m)->m_next; \ > + if ((m)->m_flags & M_PERM == 0) { \ > FREE((m), mbtypes[(m)->m_type]); \ > } \ > } > please go look at 2.2 before changing things the routine is only ever called from there, but the function pointers might be set up in many palces.. especially in 3rd party software.. so don't break it...please > notice, I need to send the address of the mbuf to my recycle "free" program. > and I cannot let it FREE the mbuf lower down in the MFREE routine. > > with this, I can send these permanent mbufs anywhere a regular external > mbuf is used (in protocols like IP stack and sockets). > > Is there some reason the existing sys/mbuf.h does not allow external mbuf > to call the custom ext_free? it was broken by someone? I do it under bsd4.3 ,osf1, mach and freebsd2.2. > > Does anyone have strong reason to not do this (like those extra instruction > will cause significant overhead, etc)? as 2.2 already does this I doubt it.. julian > > --mark. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 17:20:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA11746 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:20:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA11736 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:20:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA07456; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:20:05 -0700 (PDT) To: Wilko Bulte cc: FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: volunteering (was: putting 'whining' to work) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:49:09 BST." <199610172049.VAA01397@yedi.iaf.nl> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:20:05 -0700 Message-ID: <7454.845598005@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > How big would such a test-snap be (in Mb) ? Assuming bin only, etc. ~50MB jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 17:20:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA11782 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:20:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rosemary.fsl.noaa.gov (rosemary.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.8.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA11745 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:20:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rosemary.fsl.noaa.gov (rosemary.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.8.41]) by rosemary.fsl.noaa.gov (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA00306; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:19:44 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3266CD1E.41C67EA6@fsl.noaa.gov> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:19:42 -0600 From: Sean Kelly Organization: NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.1.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nate Williams CC: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: C++ question References: <199610172119.PAA20617@rocky.mt.sri.com> <3266AE63.41C67EA6@fsl.noaa.gov> <199610172209.QAA21050@rocky.mt.sri.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nate Williams wrote: > I agree, but the compiler notes explicitly (well, not so explicitly) say > that newer C++ standards don't allow this. Curious. I'm out of touch with the standards ... do you know why it wouldn't be allowed (or would care to speculate)? -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory Boulder Colorado USA From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 17:33:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA12539 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:33:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA12530; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:32:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.7.6/8.6.5) with SMTP id RAA13429; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:34:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610180034.RAA13429@root.com> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.root.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Mark Tinguely cc: freebsd-atm@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: custom free for external mbuf In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:23:18 CDT." <199610172223.RAA09577@plains.nodak.edu> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:34:01 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >If I add a new flag entry (say M_PERM) and change the MFREE routine (here >I show changes to the "notyet" part of MFREE, the current MFREE changes >would be simular): > > if ((m)->m_flags & M_EXT) { \ >+ if ((m)->m_flags & M_PERM) { \ >+ if ((m)->m_ext.ext_free) \ >+ (*((m)->m_ext.ext_free))((m), \ >+ (m)->m_ext.ext_size); \ >+ } \ >+ else \ > if ((m)->m_ext.ext_free) \ > (*((m)->m_ext.ext_free))((m)->m_ext.ext_buf, \ > (m)->m_ext.ext_size); \ > else \ > MCLFREE((m)->m_ext.ext_buf); \ > } \ > (n) = (m)->m_next; \ >+ if ((m)->m_flags & M_PERM == 0) { \ > FREE((m), mbtypes[(m)->m_type]); \ > } \ > } It seems to me that the above can be optimized: if ((m)->m_flags & M_EXT) { \ if ((m)->m_ext.ext_free) {\ if ((m)->m_flags & M_PERM) \ (*((m)->m_ext.ext_free))((m), \ (m)->m_ext.ext_size); \ else \ (*((m)->m_ext.ext_free))((m)->m_ext.ext_buf, \ (m)->m_ext.ext_size); \ } else \ MCLFREE((m)->m_ext.ext_buf); \ } \ This would retain the same performance as the original routine in the standard case of no external free function. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 17:56:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA13818 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA13810; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:56:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id KAA20694; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:25:31 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199610180055.KAA20694@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c To: guido@gvr.win.tue.nl (Guido van Rooij) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:25:31 +0930 (CST) Cc: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, phk@critter.tfs.com, guido@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, tech-userlevel@netbsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610172004.WAA11623@gvr.win.tue.nl> from "Guido van Rooij" at Oct 17, 96 10:04:45 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Guido van Rooij stands accused of saying: > > > > > bzero'ing a hash buffer is not a complete solution to the problem, > > since the process may contain other potentially sensitive data > > in its address space. What you really want to do is protect > > the cores. > > > > > And what about a user attaching a debugger to a running ftpd... If it's running as root, they have to be root already. If it's changed its UID, as has already been pointed out, you _can't_ attach to it for just this reason. > -Guido > -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 18:05:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA14404 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:05:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA14396 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:05:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with UUCP id TAA03833; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:05:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.ampr.ab.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA27332; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:03:42 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:03:42 -0600 (MDT) From: Marc Slemko X-Sender: marcs@alive.ampr.ab.ca Reply-To: Marc Slemko To: =?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?= cc: Guido van Rooij , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c In-Reply-To: <199610172157.BAA00344@nagual.ru> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, [KOI8-R] =E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA =FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7 wrote: > > >=20 > > > bzero'ing a hash buffer is not a complete solution to the problem, > > > since the process may contain other potentially sensitive data > > > in its address space. What you really want to do is protect > > > the cores. > > >=20 >=20 > I consider it as a bad move too and performance degradation. > Why only DB? Why you don't automatically clear stack too? :-) >=20 > Passwords can be stored anywhere in the application, > and it is per-application task to clear sensetive data anywhere. Is there an efficient way for a process to clear all memory that was allocated and deallocated by any function that it has called but not, of course, memory it is still using? The issue came up from ftpd calling getpwnam that calls some DB routines. The DB routines allocate and deallocte the memory internally, so getpwnam does not know what memory DB used.=20 I guess that in -current it doesn't matter since the process won't core dump anyway since it has done a setuid(). As long as there is no way other than core dumps or attaching with ptrace for a user to get information from the memory space of a program running as their uid that was running as root, this isn't a problem in -current. However, I'm not sure I want to trust that idea. Is reading of /proc//mem disabled if a program has done a setuid()? From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 19:15:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA17260 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:15:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spiff.cc.iastate.edu (spiff.cc.iastate.edu [129.186.142.89]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA17255 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:15:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by spiff.cc.iastate.edu with sendmail-5.65 id ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:15:42 -0500 Message-Id: <9610180215.AA12203@spiff.cc.iastate.edu> To: hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: graphix@iastate.edu Subject: new filesystem Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:15:41 CDT From: Kent Vander Velden Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk For a computer security class project I would like to implement the BPL security model in a filesystem and am looking for a hint as to where to begin. The BPL model uses classifications, compartments and a few simple rules to determine if a user can access the files. Users and files have classifications placed on them as well as belonging in compartments. At the moment I am thinking that for the project that I could get by with an extra 64 bits of information per file. Perhaps 10 bits for classification and the remainder for compartment. My feeling as to how to proceed to implement the filesystem is to copy the ufs filesystem code and give it a new identity. The extra code to handle the model slowly worked in. There would appear to be an extra 64 bits of spare space at the end of the dinode structure where I planned to store the classifications and compartment information. "The Design and Implementation of the 4.4 BSD OS" talks about using the nullfs as a starting place for a new filesystem or a layer but I am not completely certain that this is the best choice in this case. Perhaps the extra information could be handled at the vnode level instead of the inode level... I am curious what others more experienced feel would be the best way to do this. I would like to minimize the impact that my changes have on the actual kernel of course. Thanks. --- Kent Vander Velden graphix@iastate.edu From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 20:04:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA19418 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 20:04:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA19413 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 20:04:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA26125; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 20:03:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610180303.UAA26125@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Terry Lambert cc: jdw@wwwi.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IP bugs in FreeBSD 2.1.5 In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:55:26 PDT." <199610171855.LAA06293@phaeton.artisoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 20:03:23 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of Terry Lambert : > > > > It is a matter of what we can do and the resources that we > > > > have available -- that is all . > > > > > > No it's not. It is the difference between an entrepeneurship (16-22 > > > participants, max) and a small business (100-150 participants, max) > > > and a medium business (1200-2500 participants, max). > > > > > > > I don't think that the above is the case. Clearly, FreeBSD is available > > for any large corporation to take charget of it. > > This would be topologically equivalent to a "split". I wouldn't use the word "split" rather and hopefully "friendly takeover" with a business goal. The closest that I can think of that falls into this category is Caldera . > Hint: Societies are subject to statistical laws, and I'm not stupid. Societies are also lead 8) Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 20:44:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA20912 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 20:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ix.comcat.com (desslock@ix.ComCAT.COM [204.170.64.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA20903; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 20:44:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from desslock@localhost) by ix.comcat.com (8.7.6/BTS/bts.sm-1.2) id XAA22705; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:44:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:44:16 -0400 (EDT) From: John Bowman To: Jay Sachs cc: hackers@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PPP Connection problem In-Reply-To: <199610171337.JAA00528@luddite.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Ok... here ya go... It's in the following format: Destination, Gateway, Flags, Refs, Use, Netif: Before: 127.0.0.1, 127.0.0.1, UH, 0, 0, lo0 After (in either Dial or through manual term): 127.0.0.1, 127.0.0.1, UH, 0, 0, lo0 204.170.64.3, 204.170.64.33, UH, 0, 0, tun0 After it was suggested I manually add --> add 0 0 HISADDR: default, 204.170.64.3, UGc, 0, 0, tun0 127.0.0.1, 127.0.0.1, UH, 0, 0, lo0 204.170.64.3, 204.170.64.33, UH, 0, 0, tun0 In fact, once I even got (after that one add line): default, 204.170.64.3, UGc, 0, 0, tun0 127.0.0.1, 127.0.0.1, UH, 0, 0, lo0 204.170.64.3, 204.170.64.33, UH, 1, 0, tun0 204.170.64.33, 127.0.0.1, UH, 0, 0, lo0 After I added the "add" command manually, I no longer got a "no route to host" error; however, I still could not ping anywhere outside 204.170.64.33. I received 100% packet loss no matter what I did. I was even pinging a local domain (204.170.64.2). In fact, I couldn't even ping 204.170.64.3! *shrug* I'm baffled. Thanks for any help, -John On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Jay Sachs wrote: > > could you send the output of netstat -rn both before and after > establishing the ppp connection? > > > > > -- > Jay Sachs > http://www.cs.nyu.edu/phd_students/sachs/ > From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 21:07:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA22050 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:07:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ccs.sogang.ac.kr (ccs.sogang.ac.kr [163.239.1.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA22036 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:07:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cslsun10.sogang.ac.kr by ccs.sogang.ac.kr (8.8.0/Sogang) id NAA03215; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:02:34 +0900 (KST) Received: by cslsun10.sogang.ac.kr (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17176; Fri, 18 Oct 96 13:05:49 KST From: cskim@cslsun10.sogang.ac.kr (Kim Chang Seob) Message-Id: <9610180405.AA17176@cslsun10.sogang.ac.kr> Subject: swapin or swapout To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:05:47 +0900 (KST) Cc: cskim@cslsun10.sogang.ac.kr (Kim Chang Seob) Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 21:11:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA22302 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:11:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wong.rogerswave.ca (a17b32.rogerswave.ca [204.92.17.32]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA22293 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:11:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wong@localhost) by wong.rogerswave.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA00399; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:08:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:08:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Ken Wong Reply-To: wong@rogerswave.ca To: Sean Kelly cc: Nate Williams , hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: C++ question In-Reply-To: <3266CD1E.41C67EA6@fsl.noaa.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Sean Kelly wrote: > Nate Williams wrote: > > > I agree, but the compiler notes explicitly (well, not so explicitly) say > > that newer C++ standards don't allow this. > > Curious. I'm out of touch with the standards ... do you know why it > wouldn't be allowed (or would care to speculate)? A is a private member type of class foo. in theory, it cannot be used inside of B as B is a class in its own right. to solve the problem struct A needed to be public. Ken From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 21:40:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA23765 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:40:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ccs.sogang.ac.kr (ccs.sogang.ac.kr [163.239.1.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA23758 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:40:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cslsun10.sogang.ac.kr by ccs.sogang.ac.kr (8.8.0/Sogang) id NAA04623; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:36:16 +0900 (KST) Received: by cslsun10.sogang.ac.kr (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17186; Fri, 18 Oct 96 13:06:54 KST Date: Fri, 18 Oct 96 13:06:54 KST From: cskim@cslsun10.sogang.ac.kr (Kim Chang Seob) Message-Id: <9610180406.AA17186@cslsun10.sogang.ac.kr> To: undisclosed-recipients:; Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk l have some question about memory managementin FreeBSD. it is that where is called swap_pager_putmulti() and swap_pager_getmulti() function. and where is cslled swapin or swapout, when swapin or swapout occur, what function is used in swapin, swapout. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 21:54:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA24337 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA24330 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:54:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA22620; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:54:07 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:54:07 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199610180454.WAA22620@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: Nate Williams , mrs@sygnus.com Subject: Re: C++ question In-Reply-To: <3266CD1E.41C67EA6@fsl.noaa.gov> References: <199610172119.PAA20617@rocky.mt.sri.com> <3266AE63.41C67EA6@fsl.noaa.gov> <199610172209.QAA21050@rocky.mt.sri.com> <3266CD1E.41C67EA6@fsl.noaa.gov> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk class foo { private: struct A { int myint; } struct B { A *ptr; // Disallowed in the C++ standard } }; > [ Sun's ] compiler notes explicitly (well, not so explicitly) say > that newer C++ standards don't allow this. Mike Stump (who is the C++ standards guru for Cygnus) responded with the following: Sun's compiler is correct. To access it, you must say it is a friend: 11.8 Nested classes [class.access.nest] 1 The members of a nested class have no special access to members of an enclosing class, nor to classes or functions that have granted friend- ship to an enclosing class; the usual access rules (_class.access_) shall be obeyed. The members of an enclosing class have no special access to members of a nested class; the usual access rules (_class.access_) shall be obeyed. [Example: class E { int x; class B { }; class I { B b; // error: E::B is private int y; void f(E* p, int i) { p->x = i; // error: E::x is private } }; int g(I* p) { return p->y; // error: I::y is private } }; --end example] So, in order to be fully conforming the code could be written as follows: class foo { private: struct A { int myint; } // The C++ standard requires the friend stuff struct B; friend struct B; struct B { A *ptr; // Disallowed in the C++ standard } }; Thanks to all, especially Mike who provided both the validation of the Sun compiler and the solution. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 21:59:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA24674 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:59:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (austin.polstra.com [206.213.73.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA24669 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (jdp@localhost) by austin.polstra.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA06725; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610180459.VAA06725@austin.polstra.com> To: ache@nagual.ru Cc: guido@gvr.win.tue.nl, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, phk@critter.tfs.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@netbsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c In-reply-to: <199610172157.BAA00344@nagual.ru> References: <199610172157.BAA00344@nagual.ru> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:59:25 -0700 From: John Polstra Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I consider it as a bad move too and performance degradation. > Why only DB? Why you don't automatically clear stack too? :-) > > Passwords can be stored anywhere in the application, > and it is per-application task to clear sensetive data anywhere. > > Please, back out this change. I agree. This change should definitely be backed out. -- John Polstra jdp@polstra.com John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA "Self-knowledge is always bad news." -- John Barth From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 22:22:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA25583 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:22:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA25578 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:22:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailbox.mcs.com (Mailbox.mcs.com [192.160.127.87]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id AAA27295; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:21:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mailbox.mcs.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.15) id ; Fri, 18 Oct 96 00:21 CDT Received: (from karl@localhost) by Jupiter.Mcs.Net (8.8.Beta.6/8.8.Beta.3) id AAA08257; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:21:39 -0500 (CDT) From: Karl Denninger Message-Id: <199610180521.AAA08257@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c To: jdp@polstra.com (John Polstra) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:21:38 -0500 (CDT) Cc: ache@nagual.ru, guido@gvr.win.tue.nl, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, phk@critter.tfs.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@netbsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610180459.VAA06725@austin.polstra.com> from "John Polstra" at Oct 17, 96 09:59:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > I consider it as a bad move too and performance degradation. > > Why only DB? Why you don't automatically clear stack too? :-) > > > > Passwords can be stored anywhere in the application, > > and it is per-application task to clear sensetive data anywhere. > > > > Please, back out this change. > > I agree. This change should definitely be backed out. > -- > John Polstra jdp@polstra.com > John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA > "Self-knowledge is always bad news." -- John Barth I disagree. The problem is that the callee (ie: ftpd) CAN'T GET TO THE STRUCTURE TO TAKE CARE OF IT. If there was a separate "destroy-data" call, that would be ok. But there isn't, and as such the ONLY way to have any security in these dbm routines is to have the system enforce it. Forcing ANYTHING that touches authentication to refuse to dump core is not the answer. Yet that is the only answer that you leave available. Worse, that doesn't even BEGIN to address the problmes that come about if you can ptrace() the process -- which, for something like this, is a REAL problem. You MUST be able to *know* that all privileged data has been nuked BEFORE you relinquish privileged operation. This isn't an option folks -- its a REQUIREMENT for security reasons. Figure it out. ftpd is not the only affected program here; just the most commonly known and exploited. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - The Finest Internet Connectivity http://www.mcs.net/~karl | T1 from $600 monthly; speeds to DS-3 available | 23 Chicagoland Prefixes, 13 ISDN, much more Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| Email to "info@mcs.net" WWW: http://www.mcs.net/ Fax: [+1 312 248-9865] | Home of Chicago's only FULL Clarinet feed! From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 22:23:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA25648 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:23:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA25641 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:23:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.0/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id FAA01100; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 05:23:45 GMT Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:23:45 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Kent Vander Velden cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: new filesystem In-Reply-To: <9610180215.AA12203@spiff.cc.iastate.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Kent Vander Velden wrote: > "The Design and Implementation of the 4.4 BSD OS" talks about using > the nullfs as a starting place for a new filesystem or a layer but I am > not completely certain that this is the best choice in this case. > Perhaps the extra information could be handled at the vnode level > instead of the inode level... You should read ftp://ftp.cs.ucla.edu/pub/ficus/ucla_csd_910056.ps. This is the design that 4.4BSD is based upon. If the link is wrong look around for John Heidemann's paper on stackable vnodes. Regards, Mike Hancock From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 22:33:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA26220 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:33:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA26215; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:33:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610180533.WAA26215@freefall.freebsd.org> To: Karl Denninger cc: jdp@polstra.com (John Polstra), ache@nagual.ru, guido@gvr.win.tue.nl, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, phk@critter.tfs.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@NetBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:21:38 CDT." <199610180521.AAA08257@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:33:46 -0700 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Forcing ANYTHING that touches authentication to refuse to dump core is not >the answer. Yet that is the only answer that you leave available. > >Worse, that doesn't even BEGIN to address the problmes that come about if >you can ptrace() the process -- which, for something like this, is a REAL >problem. > >You MUST be able to *know* that all privileged data has been nuked BEFORE >you relinquish privileged operation. This isn't an option folks -- its a >REQUIREMENT for security reasons. > >Figure it out. ftpd is not the only affected program here; just the most >commonly known and exploited. Did you miss a portion of this thread? I think that Jason already addressed all of these issues. The program can core dump, the core dump will simply only be readable by root. There are already protections enforced to disallow non-priveledged users from ptracing programs that are setuid/setgid. >-- >Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - The Finest Internet Connectivity >http://www.mcs.net/~karl | T1 from $600 monthly; speeds to DS-3 available > | 23 Chicagoland Prefixes, 13 ISDN, much more >Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| Email to "info@mcs.net" WWW: http://www.mcs.net >/ >Fax: [+1 312 248-9865] | Home of Chicago's only FULL Clarinet feed! -- Justin T. Gibbs =========================================== FreeBSD: Turning PCs into workstations =========================================== From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 22:42:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA26941 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:42:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA26934 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:42:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailbox.mcs.com (Mailbox.mcs.com [192.160.127.87]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id AAA27802; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:42:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mailbox.mcs.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.15) id ; Fri, 18 Oct 96 00:42 CDT Received: (from karl@localhost) by Jupiter.Mcs.Net (8.8.Beta.6/8.8.Beta.3) id AAA11030; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:42:18 -0500 (CDT) From: Karl Denninger Message-Id: <199610180542.AAA11030@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c To: gibbs@freefall.freebsd.org (Justin T. Gibbs) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:42:18 -0500 (CDT) Cc: karl@Mcs.Net, jdp@polstra.com, ache@nagual.ru, guido@gvr.win.tue.nl, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, phk@critter.tfs.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@NetBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199610180533.WAA26215@freefall.freebsd.org> from "Justin T. Gibbs" at Oct 17, 96 10:33:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >Forcing ANYTHING that touches authentication to refuse to dump core is not > >the answer. Yet that is the only answer that you leave available. > > > >Worse, that doesn't even BEGIN to address the problmes that come about if > >you can ptrace() the process -- which, for something like this, is a REAL > >problem. > > > >You MUST be able to *know* that all privileged data has been nuked BEFORE > >you relinquish privileged operation. This isn't an option folks -- its a > >REQUIREMENT for security reasons. > > > >Figure it out. ftpd is not the only affected program here; just the most > >commonly known and exploited. > > Did you miss a portion of this thread? I think that Jason already > addressed all of these issues. I don't think so. Please enlighten me. > The program can core dump, the core dump will simply only be readable > by root. IMHO, and sorry for being blunt, but that's a crock. So now you're going to drop a core file in a user's directory that's root and mode 700 -- regardless of how umask is set, etc? Its better to not have the problem in the first place. > There are already protections enforced to disallow non-priveledged users > from ptracing programs that are setuid/setgid. A program which calls setuid() isn't SUID any more. Once done, that's terminal (and can't be "recalled"). The problem here is that authentication data must be able to be *known* destroyed in the data segment BEFORE a non-privileged user can get to the image of the data segment via any means -- ptrace, procfs, core dumps, etc. If you do that, you get rid of the entire problem -- and if done in the libraries its not just ftpd that this fixes. What's the objection to clearing possibly-contaminated structures when a program signifies its done with a privileged resource? > -- > Justin T. Gibbs > =========================================== > FreeBSD: Turning PCs into workstations > =========================================== -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - The Finest Internet Connectivity http://www.mcs.net/~karl | T1 from $600 monthly; speeds to DS-3 available | 23 Chicagoland Prefixes, 13 ISDN, much more Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| Email to "info@mcs.net" WWW: http://www.mcs.net/ Fax: [+1 312 248-9865] | Home of Chicago's only FULL Clarinet feed! From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 22:51:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA27507 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:51:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from odysseus.sae.gr (gate.sae.gr [194.219.29.62]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA27490 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from asvestas@localhost) by odysseus.sae.gr (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA14289; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:51:05 +0300 Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:51:04 +0300 (EET DST) From: Kostas Asvestas To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Planet PCI Ethernet Card In-Reply-To: <319.845501730@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > I don't think so - I've never even heard of this card. What chipset > does it use? Right now i can not physically look at the card ( i'm 3km away at least ;) But the card says ( and it is ) that it is NE2000 compatible. So i've checked and i've seen that there is a way to use NE2000 "clones" but only in the isa bus. Can i in some way use this card with a hack or something? PS: Thanks for the Netware informations. PS1: After some hours i will look at at the manuals and the card and i will tell you exactly the chip's brand. Thanks in advance, Kostas Asvestas. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 22:53:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA27591 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:53:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA27586 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:52:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.0/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id FAA01334; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 05:52:48 GMT Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:52:47 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Karl Denninger cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: NFS node: disappearing directory In-Reply-To: <199610171810.NAA00720@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Karl Denninger wrote: > Background: Server is a BSDI 2.0 machine > Client is a FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT system > > Symptom: Randomly, "getcwd()" fails. > > Analysis thus far: > The search up-directory in "getcwd()" walks up the directory > tree from "." to the root (determined by the device numbers > and inodes for root when it gets there) looking at each path > component and inserting it in the returned string. > > Thus, what happens in getcwd() is this: > > Save our inode number > Open ".." > Read through it, looking for the inode number. > Save the path component > > Iterate until you reach "/" > > Return the path to the user. > > Now, some problems we've found. > > 1) When it fails, the up-movement works but the inode > number is NOT seen in the FIRST component when the directory > read is performed. (ie: the directory is > "/user/contrib/swilson", the first component is 'swilson' > and that is not found at the first "step-up". Is this remote /user mounted on local /user? This might not be relevant, but it helps in understanding the execution path. > 2) A bug in libc() was found where the path was not being > null-terminated, which led to comparisons looking for really > bizarre names (ie: 1024-byte random strings). We thought > this might be the cause of the problem, but it wasn't. I > have send in a commit (already accepted) to fix this. > > 3) Two consecutive "mv"s (rename to a different name, then > back) clear the problem on that given directory - but it > does eventually come back. > > 4) The problem is *random* and comes and goes for a given > directory. That it exists one minute does not imply that it > will 2 minutes later. > > 5) Some people have reported that if they actually do a "ls" > of the directory up one level, the affected paths are now > showing up. I've not been able to nail this, but its > consistent with the failure noted in (1) above. > > Current speculation is that this is a vnode cache handling problem of some > kind, where the vnode for the desired directory is being "flushed" but > never reloaded into the cache. We're still investigating and searching for > the root cause. But 3) says it does get reloaded. > Note that this appears to happen on directories with LARGE numbers of > subdirectory entries -- and not on ones with small numbers of directories. > I've never seen it occur, for example, on MY home directory -- but I'm on a > disk pack with maybe 20 directories at the same level that I'm on. > > The places where it happens frequently have perhaps 3,000 - 4,000 directories > at the same level, which is common on our big user disks. > > That's what we know right now. > > BTW, the heuristic in getcwd() needs some work, but I'm not sure how to > accomplish it as of yet. The reason is that we'd REALLY like to be able to > protect the directories involved from a listing -- that is, make them mode > 711. However, doing this causes logins to fail and all the shells to bitch > loudly. > > An example: > > / - 755 > /user - 755 > /user/contrib - 711 > /user/contrib/who-am-i - 700 > > The user is "who-am-i", and in that directory. > > getcwd() will return an error in this environment, as when it tries to READ > /user/contrib to find the inode match for the "who-am-i" component it is > unable to open that directory for this purpose. > > I'm doing a brain-search on ways to make it possible to protect things in > this fashion and still have the getcwd() call succeed, but I don't know if > its even possible. The above permissions work under SysV. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 22:55:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA27732 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:55:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA27724 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:55:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailbox.mcs.com (Mailbox.mcs.com [192.160.127.87]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id AAA28063; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:55:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mailbox.mcs.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.15) id ; Fri, 18 Oct 96 00:55 CDT Received: (from karl@localhost) by Jupiter.Mcs.Net (8.8.Beta.6/8.8.Beta.3) id AAA11348; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:55:10 -0500 (CDT) From: Karl Denninger Message-Id: <199610180555.AAA11348@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Subject: Re: NFS node: disappearing directory To: michaelh@cet.co.jp (Michael Hancock) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:55:09 -0500 (CDT) Cc: karl@Mcs.Net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Michael Hancock" at Oct 18, 96 02:52:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > 1) When it fails, the up-movement works but the inode > > number is NOT seen in the FIRST component when the directory > > read is performed. (ie: the directory is > > "/user/contrib/swilson", the first component is 'swilson' > > and that is not found at the first "step-up". > > Is this remote /user mounted on local /user? This might not be relevant, > but it helps in understanding the execution path. Yes. > > Current speculation is that this is a vnode cache handling problem of some > > kind, where the vnode for the desired directory is being "flushed" but > > never reloaded into the cache. We're still investigating and searching for > > the root cause. > > But 3) says it does get reloaded. Sometimes. But if go to the "up-level" when it happens and do a "ls", you get a VERY short list (~10% of what's really there - right about 200 entries) > > An example: > > > > / - 755 > > /user - 755 > > /user/contrib - 711 > > /user/contrib/who-am-i - 700 > > > > The user is "who-am-i", and in that directory. > > > > getcwd() will return an error in this environment, as when it tries to READ > > /user/contrib to find the inode match for the "who-am-i" component it is > > unable to open that directory for this purpose. > > > > I'm doing a brain-search on ways to make it possible to protect things in > > this fashion and still have the getcwd() call succeed, but I don't know if > > its even possible. > > The above permissions work under SysV. Can you be in "who-am-i" and do a "pwd" and have it work? That does NOT work on BSD systems. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - The Finest Internet Connectivity http://www.mcs.net/~karl | T1 from $600 monthly; speeds to DS-3 available | 23 Chicagoland Prefixes, 13 ISDN, much more Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| Email to "info@mcs.net" WWW: http://www.mcs.net/ Fax: [+1 312 248-9865] | Home of Chicago's only FULL Clarinet feed! From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 22:59:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA27926 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:59:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pdx1.world.net (pdx1.world.net [192.243.32.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA27921 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:59:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from suburbia.net (suburbia.net [203.4.184.1]) by pdx1.world.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA24294 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:59:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (proff@localhost) by suburbia.net (8.7.4/Proff-950810) id PAA05526 for hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:58:45 +1000 From: Julian Assange Message-Id: <199610180558.PAA05526@suburbia.net> Subject: Re: high resolution text modes To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:58:44 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199610180548.PAA01737@suburbia.net> from "Darren Reed" at Oct 18, 96 07:56:41 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Well, how about "option NEW_SYSCONS" for those who'd rather have a 100x30 > (or better) console without having to do it per-vt or who want it before > multiuser mode ? > > Darren I ended up not removing the per-vt-modes, but created a M_USER mode, which when activated via the new VT_RESIZE ioctl, sets all consoles to that mode/rows/cols. Changing to an M_USER mode vt, via vt switching is now basically a no-op. This means that provided you don't enable per-vt resolutions after a VT_RESIZE you are safe. -- "Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies, The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis, _God in the Dock_ +---------------------+--------------------+----------------------------------+ |Julian Assange RSO | PO Box 2031 BARKER | Secret Analytic Guy Union | |proff@suburbia.net | VIC 3122 AUSTRALIA | finger for PGP key hash ID = | |proff@gnu.ai.mit.edu | FAX +61-3-98199066 | 0619737CCC143F6DEA73E27378933690 | +---------------------+--------------------+----------------------------------+ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 23:07:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA28526 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:07:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA28519 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:07:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.0/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id GAA01473; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 06:07:13 GMT Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:07:13 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock Reply-To: Michael Hancock To: Karl Denninger cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: NFS node: disappearing directory In-Reply-To: <199610180555.AAA11348@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, Karl Denninger wrote: > > > 1) When it fails, the up-movement works but the inode > > > number is NOT seen in the FIRST component when the directory > > > read is performed. (ie: the directory is > > > "/user/contrib/swilson", the first component is 'swilson' > > > and that is not found at the first "step-up". > > > > Is this remote /user mounted on local /user? This might not be relevant, > > but it helps in understanding the execution path. > > Yes. > > > > Current speculation is that this is a vnode cache handling problem of some > > > kind, where the vnode for the desired directory is being "flushed" but > > > never reloaded into the cache. We're still investigating and searching for > > > the root cause. > > > > But 3) says it does get reloaded. > > Sometimes. But if go to the "up-level" when it happens and do a "ls", you > get a VERY short list (~10% of what's really there - right about 200 > entries) Umm. Is John around? What kind of memory does the result of readdir go into? > > > An example: > > > > > > / - 755 > > > /user - 755 > > > /user/contrib - 711 > > > /user/contrib/who-am-i - 700 > > > > > > The user is "who-am-i", and in that directory. > > > > > > getcwd() will return an error in this environment, as when it tries to READ > > > /user/contrib to find the inode match for the "who-am-i" component it is > > > unable to open that directory for this purpose. > > > > > > I'm doing a brain-search on ways to make it possible to protect things in > > > this fashion and still have the getcwd() call succeed, but I don't know if > > > its even possible. > > > > The above permissions work under SysV. > > Can you be in "who-am-i" and do a "pwd" and have it work? Yup, just tested it /home2 root 755 /home2/contrib root 711 /home2/contrib/joe joe 700 As joe, cd /home2/contrib/joe pwd /home2/contrib/joe From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 23:09:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA28656 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA28651 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA08757; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:09:07 -0700 (PDT) To: Kostas Asvestas cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Planet PCI Ethernet Card In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:51:04 +0300." Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:09:06 -0700 Message-ID: <8755.845618946@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > So i've checked and i've seen that there is a way to use NE2000 > "clones" but only in the isa bus. Well, sort of. In 2.2 there is detection code for NE2000 PCI clone cards, but not 2.1.5. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 23:10:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA28750 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:10:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA28738; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610180610.XAA28738@freefall.freebsd.org> To: Karl Denninger cc: jdp@polstra.com, ache@nagual.ru, guido@gvr.win.tue.nl, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, phk@critter.tfs.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@NetBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:42:18 CDT." <199610180542.AAA11030@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:10:46 -0700 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> Did you miss a portion of this thread? I think that Jason already >> addressed all of these issues. > >I don't think so. Please enlighten me. How civil. >> The program can core dump, the core dump will simply only be readable >> by root. > >IMHO, and sorry for being blunt, but that's a crock. So now you're going >to drop a core file in a user's directory that's root and mode 700 -- >regardless of how umask is set, etc? In either case, the core dump lands where it lands. If the user gets upset about this file sitting in their home directory, maybe he/she will even tell you about it so that you can determine the cause of the core dump. If they don't want to tell you, they can still remove it since they own the directory. Remeber that the core dump happens in the current working directory or the process, so its not guaranteed that the core dump will happen there. >Its better to not have the problem in the first place. Sure, core dumps should be rare. When a core dump occurs, do you think your paying customers should diagnose and fix the problem? I would expect the system administrators to fix problems with system utilities. >> There are already protections enforced to disallow non-priveledged users >> from ptracing programs that are setuid/setgid. > >A program which calls setuid() isn't SUID any more. Once done, that's >terminal (and can't be "recalled"). The saved UID is not perterbed which allows you to determine that the program was setuid. >The problem here is that authentication data must be able to be *known* >destroyed in the data segment BEFORE a non-privileged user can get to the >image of the data segment via any means -- ptrace, procfs, core dumps, >etc. > >If you do that, you get rid of the entire problem -- and if done in the >libraries its not just ftpd that this fixes. Which is what is accomplished, just in this case its by the kernel (where security should be enforced) not by a library. >What's the objection to clearing possibly-contaminated structures when a >program signifies its done with a privileged resource? It causes any db client to pay this penalty regardless of what is stored in the database. That is bad design. >-- >Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - The Finest Internet Connectivity >http://www.mcs.net/~karl | T1 from $600 monthly; speeds to DS-3 available > | 23 Chicagoland Prefixes, 13 ISDN, much more >Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| Email to "info@mcs.net" WWW: http://www.mcs.net >/ >Fax: [+1 312 248-9865] | Home of Chicago's only FULL Clarinet feed! -- Justin T. Gibbs =========================================== FreeBSD: Turning PCs into workstations =========================================== From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 23:20:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA29311 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:20:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA29305 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:20:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.0/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id GAA01570; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 06:20:03 GMT Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:20:03 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Karl Denninger cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: NFS node: disappearing directory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, Michael Hancock wrote: Oops, sorry I can't verify this as I did this on a local filesystem.:( Mike > > Can you be in "who-am-i" and do a "pwd" and have it work? > > Yup, just tested it > > /home2 root 755 > /home2/contrib root 711 > /home2/contrib/joe joe 700 > > As joe, > > cd /home2/contrib/joe > pwd > /home2/contrib/joe From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 23:32:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA29638 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:32:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ra.dkuug.dk (ra.dkuug.dk [193.88.44.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA29633; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:31:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ra.dkuug.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA13020; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:31:22 +0200 Message-Id: <199610180631.IAA13020@ra.dkuug.dk> Subject: Re: high resolution text modes To: ache@nagual.ru (=?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?=) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:31:22 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, sos@FreeBSD.org, proff@suburbia.net, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610172253.CAA00768@nagual.ru> from "=?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?=" at Oct 18, 96 02:53:02 am From: sos@FreeBSD.org Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to =?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?= who wrote: > > > > Erhm, You are not going to remove anything of that kind from > > > syscons if thats what you want. I'll provide you with a interface > > > for doing this if need be, but this will NOT go into syscons, or > > > I'll resign as its maintainer. > > > > Well, how about "option NEW_SYSCONS" for those who'd rather have a 100x30 > > (or better) console without having to do it per-vt or who want it before > > multiuser mode ? > > Soren, as I remember from our private mail, you put global text mode set > and global "mouse on" in your TODO list, or I miss something? Yes, I ahve a "global" mode on my todo list, but it does not imply that all vt are created equal, it will only send a request for some modesetting to be sent to all open vt's. I am still VERY convinced that this belongs as a LKM, which can do the magic eventually still via SVGAtextmode, which you allso has to run with this hack. I have promised to look this over, and se what can be done, but I will still fight "non-std" modestuff in syscons to the end.... What I will do however is providing the hooks so this can be done in a clean and extendable way. This is not because I want to be a showstopper, but there are plans to change syscons significantly after the 2.2 release, and this HAS to fit into the bigger picture, or it will be gone again fairly soon. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team So much code to hack -- so little time. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Oct 17 23:59:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA01106 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:59:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.50.29]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA01101 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:59:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA13336; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:46:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610180646.XAA13336@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Justin T. Gibbs" Cc: Karl Denninger , jdp@polstra.com, ache@nagual.ru, guido@gvr.win.tue.nl, phk@critter.tfs.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@netbsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:46:37 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:10:46 -0700 "Justin T. Gibbs" wrote: > >What's the objection to clearing possibly-contaminated structures when a > >program signifies its done with a privileged resource? > > It causes any db client to pay this penalty regardless of what is stored > in the database. That is bad design. Right, and as I said previously, who's to know if there's other sensitive data in the processes' address space... In addition to paying a performance cost, you don't really solve anything. Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: 408.866.1912 NAS: M/S 258-6 Work: 415.604.0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: 415.428.6939 From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 00:45:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA03809 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:45:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gvr.win.tue.nl (root@gvr.win.tue.nl [131.155.210.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA03800; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:45:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gvr.win.tue.nl (8.6.13/1.53) id JAA13169; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:44:35 +0200 From: guido@gvr.win.tue.nl (Guido van Rooij) Message-Id: <199610180744.JAA13169@gvr.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c To: ache@nagual.ru (=?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?=) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:44:34 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, phk@critter.tfs.com, guido@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@netbsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610172157.BAA00344@nagual.ru> from "[______ ______]" at "Oct 18, 96 01:57:34 am" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Passwords can be stored anywhere in the application, > and it is per-application task to clear sensetive data anywhere. > > Please, back out this change. > > > And what about a user attaching a debugger to a running ftpd... > > He must be root for that. This is not true for 2.1.0 systems. It is for 2.1.5. I'll back it out. -Guido From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 00:47:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA03860 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:47:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gvr.win.tue.nl (root@gvr.win.tue.nl [131.155.210.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA03855; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:46:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gvr.win.tue.nl (8.6.13/1.53) id JAA13183; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:45:33 +0200 From: guido@gvr.win.tue.nl (Guido van Rooij) Message-Id: <199610180745.JAA13183@gvr.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:45:32 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, phk@critter.tfs.com, guido@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, tech-userlevel@netbsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610180055.KAA20694@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from Michael Smith at "Oct 18, 96 10:25:31 am" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > And what about a user attaching a debugger to a running ftpd... > > If it's running as root, they have to be root already. If it's > changed its UID, as has already been pointed out, you _can't_ attach > to it for just this reason. > At least under 2.1.0 this is not true. -Guido From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 00:51:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA04193 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:51:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA04186 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:51:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id JAA10170; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:51:27 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA12297; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:51:26 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.6/8.6.9) id JAA25986; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:34:44 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610180734.JAA25986@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: 2.2-961014-SNAP install problem To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:34:44 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (Christoph Kukulies) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199610171327.OAA29987@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> from Christoph Kukulies at "Oct 17, 96 02:27:56 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Christoph Kukulies wrote: > The partition editor barfed at my disk geometry and > decided to take 2050/64/32 instead of the > native geometry of 3925/10/107. Trying to enforce > the latter (G option) doesn't seem possible. The native geometry of any fairly modern disk is not expressable in plain C/H/S terms. If you're using SCSI disks, they are always translated: the SCSI protocol doesn't know the term `head', `cylinder', or `sector number' in order to address a block on some storage medium. All it knows about is a block number. We've been repeating this over and over again: the only geometry you should use is the same as your disk is known to the BIOS. If your disk is not used by the BIOS at all, you can pick whatever value you want, as long as the total number of blocks (C*H*S) on the medium is not higher than the medium capacity. In this case, the ``dangerously dedicated'' mode is the only mode where you can use all the blocks of the medium (which is normally larger than anything that could be expressed as a product C*H*S where all the elements are integer numbers). -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 00:52:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA04309 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA04304 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:52:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id JAA10166 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:51:25 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA12296 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:51:25 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.6/8.6.9) id JAA25957 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:27:41 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610180727.JAA25957@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: 2.2-961006-SNAP keyboard lockup To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:27:41 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199610171704.LAA18599@rocky.mt.sri.com> from Nate Williams at "Oct 17, 96 11:04:29 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Nate Williams wrote: > I can also lockup vty switching by attempting to switch out of X before > it's completely initialized, which confuses the heck out of syscons. If This is an artifact of the way how VT switching in X11 is handled (the so-called ``process mode'' of the VT). The keyboard lockups are most likely bus arbitration failures for the keyboard bus. The keyboard bus has been designed to be uni-directional, and abused as a bi-directional bus later. There's no hardware support for an arbitration protocol, this is what makes it a fairly hard job to get it right. > it's any consolation, the *exact* same behavior occurs under SCO, so > syscons is doing a pretty good job of emulating both the good and bad > features of the SCO console driver. :) Btw., i've also seen SCO's jamming the keyboard of an HP Vectra (which is a _supported_ machine for SCO!) right at the first press of the CapsLock key. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 01:06:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA04835 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 01:06:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ra.dkuug.dk (ra.dkuug.dk [193.88.44.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA04830 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 01:06:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ra.dkuug.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA13462; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:05:53 +0200 Message-Id: <199610180805.KAA13462@ra.dkuug.dk> Subject: Re: 2.2-961006-SNAP keyboard lockup To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:05:53 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610180727.JAA25957@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at Oct 18, 96 09:27:41 am From: sos@freebsd.org Reply-to: sos@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to J Wunsch who wrote: > > As Nate Williams wrote: > > > I can also lockup vty switching by attempting to switch out of X before > > it's completely initialized, which confuses the heck out of syscons. If > > This is an artifact of the way how VT switching in X11 is handled (the > so-called ``process mode'' of the VT). The keyboard lockups are most > likely bus arbitration failures for the keyboard bus. The keyboard bus > has been designed to be uni-directional, and abused as a bi-directional > bus later. There's no hardware support for an arbitration protocol, > this is what makes it a fairly hard job to get it right. I'd say almost impossible job... > > it's any consolation, the *exact* same behavior occurs under SCO, so > > syscons is doing a pretty good job of emulating both the good and bad > > features of the SCO console driver. :) Should I take that as a compliment ?? :) Actually this is a bitch to solve, none of my machines (or the collection of strange kbd controllers I have), exhibits this lockup behavior, so I have no chances for finding a solution to this, but be assured that if I get ahold of hardware with the problem I'll hunt it, its real annoying... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team So much code to hack -- so little time. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 01:29:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA05908 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 01:29:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alice.wonderland.org (alice.wonderland.org [193.195.141.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA05901 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 01:29:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (peter@localhost) by alice.wonderland.org (8.7.5/8.6.5) id XAA08702; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:08:15 +0100 (BST) From: Peter Galbavy Message-Id: <199610172208.XAA08702@alice.wonderland.org> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c To: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:08:14 +0100 (BST) Cc: gibbs@freefall.freebsd.org, karl@mcs.net, jdp@polstra.com, ache@nagual.ru, guido@gvr.win.tue.nl, phk@critter.tfs.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@NetBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199610180646.XAA13336@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> from "Jason Thorpe" at Oct 17, 96 11:46:37 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:10:46 -0700 > "Justin T. Gibbs" wrote: > > > >What's the objection to clearing possibly-contaminated structures when a > > >program signifies its done with a privileged resource? > > > > It causes any db client to pay this penalty regardless of what is stored > > in the database. That is bad design. > > Right, and as I said previously, who's to know if there's other sensitive > data in the processes' address space... In addition to paying a performance > cost, you don't really solve anything. Only compile it in when DEBUG is defined or domething ? Regards, -- Peter Galbavy peter@wonderland.org @ Home phone://44/973/499465 in Wonderland http://www.wonderland.org/~peter/ snail://UK/NW1_6LE/London/21_Harewood_Avenue/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 01:37:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA06539 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 01:37:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alice.wonderland.org (alice.wonderland.org [193.195.141.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA06531 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 01:37:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (peter@localhost) by alice.wonderland.org (8.7.5/8.6.5) id XAA08726; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:15:39 +0100 (BST) From: Peter Galbavy Message-Id: <199610172215.XAA08726@alice.wonderland.org> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c To: peter@wonderland.org (Peter Galbavy) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:15:39 +0100 (BST) Cc: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, gibbs@freefall.freebsd.org, karl@mcs.net, jdp@polstra.com, ache@nagual.ru, guido@gvr.win.tue.nl, phk@critter.tfs.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@NetBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199610172208.XAA08702@alice.wonderland.org> from "Peter Galbavy" at Oct 17, 96 11:08:14 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Only compile it in when DEBUG is defined or domething ? > Now type 100 times: Next time I will read the whoel thread first... Regards, -- Peter Galbavy peter@wonderland.org @ Home phone://44/973/499465 in Wonderland http://www.wonderland.org/~peter/ snail://UK/NW1_6LE/London/21_Harewood_Avenue/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 01:41:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA06982 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 01:41:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from minnow.render.com (render.demon.co.uk [158.152.30.118]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA06965 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 01:41:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from minnow.render.com (minnow.render.com [193.195.178.1]) by minnow.render.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA22003; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:41:14 +0100 Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:41:14 +0100 (BST) From: Doug Rabson To: Nate Williams cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Brian N. Handy" , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: 2.2-961006-SNAP keyboard lockup In-Reply-To: <199610171704.LAA18599@rocky.mt.sri.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Nate Williams wrote: > > > I do occasionally have keyboard lockups too, but only under X. > > > > > When it locks up, is it possible to run this from a mouse menu button > > or something and see if it fixes it? > > > > echo "set ipending=2" | gdb -k -w /kernel /dev/mem >/dev/null 2>&1 > > Make sure this process is run as 'root' or it won't work. (I know only > too well about that problem, and I know have a suid program which does > the above I can call from a menu.) > > > I have the same problem, but it only happens when I xmodmap the > > keyboard to swap my capslock and DEL keys. Before I did this (the > > result of switching keyboards to one which didn't do it in hardware), > > I never had a problem at all. > > I don't use xmodmap at all on my box and I see it *all* the time, at > least once/week. (I switched the CL and DEL keys with a new keymap in > syscons). However, if Jordan is still using his M$ Natural keyboard > then we have something in common. I had this problem and I 'fixed' it by changing from syscons to pcvt. I am *not* using one of those miserable M$ keyboards (we have stacks of them here and I hate them). -- Doug Rabson, Microsoft RenderMorphics Ltd. Mail: dfr@render.com Phone: +44 171 734 3761 FAX: +44 171 734 6426 From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 01:44:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA07191 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 01:44:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eterna.com.au (splode.mame.mu.OZ.AU [128.250.209.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA07171 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 01:44:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eterna.com.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA17915; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:41:56 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199610180841.SAA17915@eterna.com.au> X-Authentication-Warning: splode.eterna.com.au: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Karl Denninger cc: jdp@polstra.com, ache@nagual.ru, guido@gvr.win.tue.nl, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, phk@critter.tfs.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@netbsd.org, gibbs@freefall.freebsd.org (Justin T. Gibbs) From: matthew green Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:42:18 EST." <199610180542.AAA11030@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:37:37 +1000 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk What's the objection to clearing possibly-contaminated structures when a program signifies its done with a privileged resource? the objection is that for 99% or more of the cases this is *NOT* necessary. also, you're trying to fix the effect rather than the cause. regardless: until just now, netbsd allowed a process that was set[gu]id to dump core _if_ it no longer was. i've fixed this (just check for SUGID in coredump()). From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 01:48:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA07453 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 01:48:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eterna.com.au (splode.mame.mu.OZ.AU [128.250.209.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA07445 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 01:48:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eterna.com.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA17954; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:47:10 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199610180847.SAA17954@eterna.com.au> X-Authentication-Warning: splode.eterna.com.au: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Justin T. Gibbs" cc: jdp@polstra.com, ache@nagual.ru, guido@gvr.win.tue.nl, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, phk@critter.tfs.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@netbsd.org, Karl Denninger From: matthew green Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:10:46 MST." <199610180610.XAA28738@freefall.freebsd.org> Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:47:09 +1000 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >A program which calls setuid() isn't SUID any more. Once done, that's >terminal (and can't be "recalled"). The saved UID is not perterbed which allows you to determine that the program was setuid. setuid() changes the effective, real and saved user ids. RTFM if you don't believe me. the correct way to check if a process was started setuid or setgid is to check the SUGID flag. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 04:49:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA17559 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 04:49:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hda.com (ip74-max1-fitch.zipnet.net [199.232.245.74]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA17548; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 04:49:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id IAA25552; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:21:36 -0400 From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199610181221.IAA25552@hda.com> Subject: Re: 2.2-961006-SNAP keyboard lockup To: sos@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:21:35 -0400 (EDT) Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610180805.KAA13462@ra.dkuug.dk> from "sos@freebsd.org" at Oct 18, 96 10:05:53 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The old "hit key during boot up or no keyboard input is possible" problem from way back has resurfaced with the new boot floppies on a "Dell Dimension 486DX2-50" 1992 AMI BIOS. This is reproducible. -- Peter Dufault Real-Time Machine Control and Simulation HD Associates, Inc. Voice: 508 433 6936 dufault@hda.com Fax: 508 433 5267 From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 04:54:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA17879 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 04:54:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ra.dkuug.dk (ra.dkuug.dk [193.88.44.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA17872; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 04:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ra.dkuug.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA14439; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:54:01 +0200 Message-Id: <199610181154.NAA14439@ra.dkuug.dk> Subject: Re: 2.2-961006-SNAP keyboard lockup To: dufault@hda.com (Peter Dufault) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:54:01 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: sos@freebsd.org, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610181221.IAA25552@hda.com> from "Peter Dufault" at Oct 18, 96 08:21:35 am From: sos@freebsd.org Reply-to: sos@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Peter Dufault who wrote: > > The old "hit key during boot up or no keyboard input is possible" problem > from way back has resurfaced with the new boot floppies on a "Dell > Dimension 486DX2-50" 1992 AMI BIOS. This is reproducible. That must be the changes to the boot blocks, syscons hasn't changed in that area for a pretty long time.. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team So much code to hack -- so little time. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 05:55:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA20039 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 05:55:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toth.hq.ferg.com (pm1-06.wmbg.widomaker.com [206.161.154.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA20033 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 05:55:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toth.hq.ferg.com (localhost.hq.ferg.com [127.0.0.1]) by toth.hq.ferg.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA18105 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:55:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:55:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Branson Matheson X-Sender: branson@toth.hq.ferg.com To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: TERM=cons25 in roots' .profile?!? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Just had this brought up to me... why oh why are we setting a TERM entry in .profile for root?! login does this for us and .login sets TERMCAP based on the one reported to the shell by login or asked at login time? -branson # $Id: dot.profile,v 1.8 1994/10/27 05:27:00 phk Exp $ # PATH=/sbin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/bin echo 'erase ^H, kill ^U, intr ^C' stty crt erase ^H kill ^U intr ^C export PATH HOME=/root export HOME TERM=cons25 <<<< This is bad. export TERM ============================================================================= Branson Matheson | Ferguson Enterprises | If Pete and Repeat were System Administrator | W: (804) 874-7795 | sittin on a fence and Pete Unix, Perl, WWW | branson@widomaker.com | fell off, who is left? From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 06:03:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA20533 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 06:03:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pdx1.world.net (pdx1.world.net [192.243.32.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA20528 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 06:03:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from suburbia.net (suburbia.net [203.4.184.1]) by pdx1.world.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA00294; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 06:03:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (proff@localhost) by suburbia.net (8.7.4/Proff-950810) id XAA27838; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 23:01:27 +1000 From: Julian Assange Message-Id: <199610181301.XAA27838@suburbia.net> Subject: Re: SLIP speed To: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com (Joe Greco) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 23:01:26 +1000 (EST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610171858.NAA01093@brasil.moneng.mei.com> from "Joe Greco" at Oct 17, 96 01:58:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Hackers, > > > > Could anybody tell me what is the minimum response time on an SLIP > > or PPP circuit in order to make TELNET works reliable? > > Telnet should work fine over just about any reasonable IP connection. > > You do want a RTT that is not very large. I personally start to notice > it when the RTT is > 200ms or so... it just does not keep up very well > with my typing. > > You could probably run SLIP at 2400 baud and get an okay IP connection, > but telnet would seem very doggy and slow. > > ... JG > Line mode lives! -- "Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies, The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis, _God in the Dock_ +---------------------+--------------------+----------------------------------+ |Julian Assange RSO | PO Box 2031 BARKER | Secret Analytic Guy Union | |proff@suburbia.net | VIC 3122 AUSTRALIA | finger for PGP key hash ID = | |proff@gnu.ai.mit.edu | FAX +61-3-98199066 | 0619737CCC143F6DEA73E27378933690 | +---------------------+--------------------+----------------------------------+ From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 06:05:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA20671 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 06:05:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bacall.lodgenet.com (bacall.lodgenet.com [205.138.147.242]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA20665 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 06:05:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by bacall.lodgenet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA20251; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:05:16 -0500 Received: from garbo.lodgenet.com(204.124.123.250) by bacall via smap (V1.3) id sma020249; Fri Oct 18 08:05:07 1996 Received: from jake.lodgenet.com (jake.lodgenet.com [204.124.120.30]) by garbo.lodgenet.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA17850; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:05:10 -0500 Received: from jake.lodgenet.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jake.lodgenet.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA03397; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:05:03 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199610181305.IAA03397@jake.lodgenet.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Mark Mayo cc: "Eric L. Hernes" , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GIMP problems In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:44:58 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:05:03 -0500 From: "Eric L. Hernes" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mark Mayo writes: > >Whoops! Geeze, how did that get out of my kernel?! Sorry for the stupid >question, but I really didn't even think of this. Does the 2.2x kernel not >have these options by default? I was sure they were in my 2.1.5 machine by >default, and therefore didn't even look in 2.2.... It doesn't look like it. I guess I always build several kernels anyway, so its just there. > >Now, everthing works fine, and I'm quite impresses by 'The Gimp' . Very >neat piece of software. At last, I have a graphics program on my bsd box! > Yea, it's pretty good. I haven't been able to get the newer `developers' release to work as well as the motif based one though. It doesn't have a very high priority either though. >Thanx, >-mark > >------------------------------------------- >| Mark Mayo mark@quickweb.com | >| C-Soft www.quickweb.com | >------------------------------------------- >"To iterate is human, to recurse divine." > - L. Peter Deutsch > > eric. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 06:27:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA21628 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 06:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA21620 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 06:27:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id IAA02709; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:24:49 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610181324.IAA02709@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c To: gibbs@freefall.freebsd.org (Justin T. Gibbs) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:24:48 -0500 (CDT) Cc: karl@mcs.net, jdp@polstra.com, ache@nagual.ru, guido@gvr.win.tue.nl, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, phk@critter.tfs.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@netbsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610180610.XAA28738@freefall.freebsd.org> from "Justin T. Gibbs" at Oct 17, 96 11:10:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi Justin, I have been following this thread and I was a little puzzled by your reply. > >The problem here is that authentication data must be able to be *known* > >destroyed in the data segment BEFORE a non-privileged user can get to the > >image of the data segment via any means -- ptrace, procfs, core dumps, > >etc. > > > >If you do that, you get rid of the entire problem -- and if done in the > >libraries its not just ftpd that this fixes. > > Which is what is accomplished, just in this case its by the kernel (where > security should be enforced) not by a library. I assume (hope!) that you are saying that the "fix" in the "kernel" is appropriate protection of the core file, not somehow mangling the contents of the core file to provide this protection. > >What's the objection to clearing possibly-contaminated structures when a > >program signifies its done with a privileged resource? > > It causes any db client to pay this penalty regardless of what is stored > in the database. That is bad design. Would it be possible to extend the db interface to have a "suicide call" that wiped itself clean? Something that would not interfere with normal db functions, but instead act as an extension? I believe that the current passwd lookup paradigm is typically something like: 1) prompt_login() 2) prompt_passwd() 3) db_fetch_salt_for_login() 4) encrypt_passwd_using_salt() 5) bzero_passwd() 6) db_fetch_users_encrypted_passwd() 7) compare() Inserting a step 6a) db_suicide() would prevent structures containing "sensitive" data from being present in a process that would later run as a non-root process. And no matter how secure the core/ptrace handling is, I tend to agree with Karl that this is not particularly desirable. If I can somehow exploit a bounds check bug someplace, and cause the system to write me that data, it doesn't particularly matter if the process is suid or not. Is it likely to happen? I'm inclined to say "no" but I'm not dumb enough to say so with certainty. (inserting a step 3a) db_suicide is probably also a good idea, btw). I think that the ideal solution would address both of these concerns. But I do not remember enough about the Berkeley DB package to really know... I do remember that it is extensible, perhaps it would be "easiest" to add another map type that explicitly cleaned up after each access. Just trying to suggest some ideas, ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 06:29:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA21851 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 06:29:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA21845 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 06:28:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id IAA02721; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:27:47 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610181327.IAA02721@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: SLIP speed To: proff@suburbia.net (Julian Assange) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:27:47 -0500 (CDT) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610181301.XAA27838@suburbia.net> from "Julian Assange" at Oct 18, 96 11:01:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Hackers, > > > > > > Could anybody tell me what is the minimum response time on an SLIP > > > or PPP circuit in order to make TELNET works reliable? > > > > Telnet should work fine over just about any reasonable IP connection. > > > > You do want a RTT that is not very large. I personally start to notice > > it when the RTT is > 200ms or so... it just does not keep up very well > > with my typing. > > > > You could probably run SLIP at 2400 baud and get an okay IP connection, > > but telnet would seem very doggy and slow. > > > > ... JG > > Line mode lives! Does anybody care to try 300 or 110 baud IP? :-) ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 06:37:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA22272 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 06:37:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA22266 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 06:37:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id IAA02730; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:36:30 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610181336.IAA02730@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: TERM=cons25 in roots' .profile?!? To: branson@widomaker.com (Branson Matheson) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:36:29 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Branson Matheson" at Oct 18, 96 08:55:07 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Just had this brought up to me... why oh why are we setting a TERM > entry in .profile for root?! login does this for us and .login sets > TERMCAP based on the one reported to the shell by login or asked at > login time? > > -branson > > # $Id: dot.profile,v 1.8 1994/10/27 05:27:00 phk Exp $ > # > PATH=/sbin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/bin > echo 'erase ^H, kill ^U, intr ^C' > stty crt erase ^H kill ^U intr ^C > export PATH > HOME=/root > export HOME > TERM=cons25 <<<< This is bad. > export TERM I may be wrong, but I believe that this was done so that single user mode would be more livable. This is clearly wrong in the case where TERM has been set up by getty/login from the data in /etc/ttys. It is not so clearly wrong in the case where you are in single user mode, but it is still wrong: if you have a serial console and a vt100, "cons25" does not work well. However, it is less clear what the correct solution is, in this case. Personally, this does not bother me too much, since I am used to fixing broken environments to be able to work, but this might be rather frustrating to someone a little newer to UNIX. Anyone have ideas about a more general fix than throwing an explicit TERM=xxxx in .profile? ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 06:42:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA22583 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 06:42:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA22578 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 06:42:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id IAA02749; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:39:57 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610181339.IAA02749@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c To: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:39:56 -0500 (CDT) Cc: gibbs@freefall.freebsd.org, karl@mcs.net, jdp@polstra.com, ache@nagual.ru, guido@gvr.win.tue.nl, phk@critter.tfs.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@netbsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610180646.XAA13336@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> from "Jason Thorpe" at Oct 17, 96 11:46:37 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:10:46 -0700 > "Justin T. Gibbs" wrote: > > > >What's the objection to clearing possibly-contaminated structures when a > > >program signifies its done with a privileged resource? > > > > It causes any db client to pay this penalty regardless of what is stored > > in the database. That is bad design. > > Right, and as I said previously, who's to know if there's other sensitive > data in the processes' address space... In addition to paying a performance > cost, you don't really solve anything. I think perhaps we are all in agreement: If a process is managing sensitive data, it needs to be up to the process to handle the security arrangements. I believe that what is lacking is a way to do this right now with a process that uses Berkeley DB... ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 06:47:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA22945 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 06:47:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from minnow.render.com (render.demon.co.uk [158.152.30.118]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA22940 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 06:47:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from minnow.render.com (minnow.render.com [193.195.178.1]) by minnow.render.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA22609; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:46:27 +0100 Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:46:27 +0100 (BST) From: Doug Rabson To: Michael Hancock cc: Karl Denninger , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: NFS node: disappearing directory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, Michael Hancock wrote: > On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Karl Denninger wrote: > > > Background: Server is a BSDI 2.0 machine > > Client is a FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT system > > > > Symptom: Randomly, "getcwd()" fails. > > > > Analysis thus far: > > The search up-directory in "getcwd()" walks up the directory > > tree from "." to the root (determined by the device numbers > > and inodes for root when it gets there) looking at each path > > component and inserting it in the returned string. > > > > Thus, what happens in getcwd() is this: > > > > Save our inode number > > Open ".." > > Read through it, looking for the inode number. > > Save the path component > > > > Iterate until you reach "/" > > > > Return the path to the user. > > > > Now, some problems we've found. > > > > 1) When it fails, the up-movement works but the inode > > number is NOT seen in the FIRST component when the directory > > read is performed. (ie: the directory is > > "/user/contrib/swilson", the first component is 'swilson' > > and that is not found at the first "step-up". > > Is this remote /user mounted on local /user? This might not be relevant, > but it helps in understanding the execution path. > > > 2) A bug in libc() was found where the path was not being > > null-terminated, which led to comparisons looking for really > > bizarre names (ie: 1024-byte random strings). We thought > > this might be the cause of the problem, but it wasn't. I > > have send in a commit (already accepted) to fix this. > > > > 3) Two consecutive "mv"s (rename to a different name, then > > back) clear the problem on that given directory - but it > > does eventually come back. > > > > 4) The problem is *random* and comes and goes for a given > > directory. That it exists one minute does not imply that it > > will 2 minutes later. > > > > 5) Some people have reported that if they actually do a "ls" > > of the directory up one level, the affected paths are now > > showing up. I've not been able to nail this, but its > > consistent with the failure noted in (1) above. > > > > Current speculation is that this is a vnode cache handling problem of some > > kind, where the vnode for the desired directory is being "flushed" but > > never reloaded into the cache. We're still investigating and searching for > > the root cause. I have a pretty good idea what is happening here. If I run this script: for i in a b c d e f; do for j in 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9; do for k in 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9; do for l in 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9; do mkdir test/$i$j$k$l done done done done and at the same time, continually list the contents of the directory 'test', after it gets past about 'a252', the client can no longer see past the first 4k of the directory. This is because the client detects that the directory is modified and tries to trash its buffered copy of the directory contents withg nfs_invaldir() and nfs_vinvalbuf(). This confuses nfs_getcookie() and the directory appears to be truncated. I am working on a fix. -- Doug Rabson, Microsoft RenderMorphics Ltd. Mail: dfr@render.com Phone: +44 171 734 3761 FAX: +44 171 734 6426 From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 07:01:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA23921 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 07:01:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA23911 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 07:01:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id OAA08820; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:26:31 +0100 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199610181326.OAA08820@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Re: TERM=cons25 in roots' .profile?!? To: branson@widomaker.com (Branson Matheson) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:26:31 +0100 (MET) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Branson Matheson" at Oct 18, 96 08:54:48 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Just had this brought up to me... why oh why are we setting a TERM > entry in .profile for root?! login does this for us and .login sets > TERMCAP based on the one reported to the shell by login or asked at > login time? agreed. I noticed the same when installed the 961006 snap Luigi From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 07:20:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA25465 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 07:20:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lib.amu.edu.pl (bogusz@lib.amu.edu.pl [150.254.100.254]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA25423 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 07:20:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bogusz@localhost) by lib.amu.edu.pl (8.6.12/8.6.9) id OAA00147; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:21:31 +0100 Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:21:31 +0100 (MET) From: Bogusz Jelinski To: J Wunsch cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Problem with compiling hallo world programm In-Reply-To: <199610142118.XAA08145@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk A few days ago I asked you what the problem might be with my FBSD unable to compile a simple C programm, remember? I am reminding you about it because I not only solved my problem but found a funny thing concerning dynamic linking as well - when I untared the bin.?? distribution (2.1.5) and copied the libraries into /usr/lib (replacing the existing files, which were the same but installed a few months ago) some programms began to crash badly (telnetd could not reference some symbols) so I copied the newly untared telnetd (CHANGING OF COURSE ONLY THE DATE OF CREATION - diff did not indicate any differences between the new and old one) and all has been working all right since. It seems to me that ld.so checks for creation dates and fails if there is no older library to link with. The less funny thing is that the passwd encrypting method has changed somehow and I have to change 250 passwords. Bogusz From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 07:21:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA25566 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 07:21:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA25553 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 07:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.7.6/8.6.9) id AAA11364; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:18:13 +1000 Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:18:13 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199610181418.AAA11364@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de Subject: Re: 2.2-961014-SNAP install problem Cc: kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >We've been repeating this over and over again: the only geometry you >should use is the same as your disk is known to the BIOS. If your >disk is not used by the BIOS at all, you can pick whatever value you >want, as long as the total number of blocks (C*H*S) on the medium is >not higher than the medium capacity. In this case, the ``dangerously >dedicated'' mode is the only mode where you can use all the blocks of >the medium No, `C' is not recorded anywhere (except possibly for MFM/ESDI/IDE disks), there is no requirement that C*H*S <= the medium capacity, and no advantage for the dangerously dedicated mode. (which is normally larger than anything that could be >expressed as a product C*H*S where all the elements are integer >numbers). No, medium sizes are normally smaller than 1024*255*63 (almost 8GB). Most current controllers support C*255*63. This geometry should be used so that you don't have to worry about C > 1024 unless you have a disk larger than 8GB. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 07:39:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA26911 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 07:39:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA26904 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 07:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailbox.mcs.com (Mailbox.mcs.com [192.160.127.87]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id JAA16290; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:38:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mailbox.mcs.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.15) id ; Fri, 18 Oct 96 09:38 CDT Received: (from karl@localhost) by Jupiter.Mcs.Net (8.8.Beta.6/8.8.Beta.3) id JAA22384; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:38:47 -0500 (CDT) From: Karl Denninger Message-Id: <199610181438.JAA22384@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Subject: Re: NFS node: disappearing directory To: michaelh@cet.co.jp Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:38:47 -0500 (CDT) Cc: karl@Mcs.Net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Michael Hancock" at Oct 18, 96 03:07:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Yup, just tested it > > /home2 root 755 > /home2/contrib root 711 > /home2/contrib/joe joe 700 > > As joe, > > cd /home2/contrib/joe > pwd > /home2/contrib/joe Ok, then System Vs "getcwd" works differently. The BSD version opens /home2/contrib and READS it. You can't do that with permission 711 (assuming you're not the owner, of course), and as a result, "pwd" fails. Anyone have any idea how they're doing this? -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - The Finest Internet Connectivity http://www.mcs.net/~karl | T1 from $600 monthly; speeds to DS-3 available | 23 Chicagoland Prefixes, 13 ISDN, much more Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| Email to "info@mcs.net" WWW: http://www.mcs.net/ Fax: [+1 312 248-9865] | Home of Chicago's only FULL Clarinet feed! From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 07:39:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA26943 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 07:39:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA26934 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 07:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailbox.mcs.com (Mailbox.mcs.com [192.160.127.87]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id JAA16299; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:39:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mailbox.mcs.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.15) id ; Fri, 18 Oct 96 09:39 CDT Received: (from karl@localhost) by Jupiter.Mcs.Net (8.8.Beta.6/8.8.Beta.3) id JAA22413; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:39:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Karl Denninger Message-Id: <199610181439.JAA22413@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Subject: Re: NFS node: disappearing directory To: michaelh@cet.co.jp (Michael Hancock) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:39:03 -0500 (CDT) Cc: karl@Mcs.Net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Michael Hancock" at Oct 18, 96 03:20:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Doesn't matter. --Karl > On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, Michael Hancock wrote: > > Oops, sorry I can't verify this as I did this on a local filesystem.:( > > Mike > > > > Can you be in "who-am-i" and do a "pwd" and have it work? > > > > Yup, just tested it > > > > /home2 root 755 > > /home2/contrib root 711 > > /home2/contrib/joe joe 700 > > > > As joe, > > > > cd /home2/contrib/joe > > pwd > > /home2/contrib/joe > > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 07:40:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA27177 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 07:40:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU (BLOOM-BEACON.MIT.EDU [18.181.0.26]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA27168 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 07:40:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU (8.7.6/25-eef) with UUCP id KAA02072 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:34:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by orchard.medford.ma.us (8.7.5/1.34) id OAA26180; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:31:53 GMT Message-Id: <199610181431.OAA26180@orchard.medford.ma.us> To: Joe Greco cc: gibbs@freefall.freebsd.org (Justin T. Gibbs), karl@mcs.net, jdp@polstra.com, ache@nagual.ru, guido@gvr.win.tue.nl, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, phk@critter.tfs.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@netbsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:24:48 -0500 (CDT) ." <199610181324.IAA02709@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:31:45 -0400 From: Bill Sommerfeld Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This whole thread is silly. The data in question (encrypted passwords) is stored in a certain file which is mode 0600 owned by root. It makes no sense to go to extreme measures to make it more protected than that, especially since (in this case) the FTP server presumably just received the (infinitely more dangerous) *plaintext* password in the clear over the net. It's probably still lurking about in the stdio buffers... Now, if you're using ftp with s/key or kerberos, maybe ftpd should be fixed so that it only tries to fetch the unexpurgated passwd entry if a plaintext password is sent.. - Bill From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 07:49:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA27648 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 07:49:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from saskatchewan.et.byu.edu (saskatchewan.et.byu.edu [128.187.120.25]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA27642 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 07:49:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by saskatchewan.et.byu.edu; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:47:06 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:47:06 -0600 (MDT) From: gritton@et.byu.edu (Jamie Gritton) Message-ID: <199610181447.IAA05206@saskatchewan.et.byu.edu> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@NetBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199610180521.AAA08257@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> (message from Karl Denninger on Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:21:38 -0500 (CDT)) Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c Reply-to: gritton@byu.edu Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Karl Denninger writes: > If there was a separate "destroy-data" call, that would be ok. But there > isn't, and as such the ONLY way to have any security in these dbm routines > is to have the system enforce it. Adding the call seems easy enough, and seems the most elegant solution. - James Gritton jamie@gritton.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 07:51:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA27819 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 07:51:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plains.nodak.edu (tinguely@plains.NoDak.edu [134.129.111.64]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA27811; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 07:51:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tinguely@localhost) by plains.nodak.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) id JAA29942; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:51:00 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:51:00 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Tinguely Message-Id: <199610181451.JAA29942@plains.nodak.edu> To: julian@whistle.com Subject: Re: custom free for external mbuf Cc: freebsd-atm@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk a little more background: traditionally, devices tell us how much space it needs just before we do the DMA, this card needs (up to 1024) buffers programmed into a queue before data arrives. We get these buffers back when they are full, or at the end of the packet. We have to feed new buffers into the card and consume data. we need buffers in the card for new input, some buffers will be running through the stacks, some beffers will be waiting to be put into the card. The data buffer has to be around forever, and to have the packet consuption routines deallocating the mbuf structure, only to turn around and reallocate either at packet recieve interrupt time or right away when I put it back on the card's queue seems wasteful. julian@whistle.com says: > you are looking at a very old version..... > look at 2.2 let us not say 2.1.5-RELEASE is old. :) > sure why not, but don't break what's already there.. > please go look at 2.2 before changing things > the routine is only ever called from there, > but the function pointers might be set up in many palces.. > especially in 3rd party software.. > so don't break it...please (I agree, ** WARNING: I am a little preachy below **. for the hysterical-intolarent, below rants about people that can but shouldn't change an existing external free routine). SOMEONE BETTER NOT BE CHANGING AN EXISTING FREE FUNCTION, THEY HAVE NO RIGHT TO DO THAT unless they retain the ORIGINAL free operation AFTER they handled their case. Reading between your lines, it appears we agree that if someone says they have and external free routine, they want it honored. I own these buffers, and I do not want anyone higher on the stack to mess with my free routine. It should matter if I am requesting the freeing of the external data or freeing of the mbuf structure itself, no one should mess with my function request. The problem very few people use these specified external free function, so the odds are it is not set before you put in a function (I bet you don't even check). Let us say more drivers use them (and once one does then you have to assume that anyone below you could). Now what are you going to do to specify your external free? from your prosective, that other driver broke your code. If you change my external free function you broke my code. come on, this external free function idea has been around for several years, people must have had this problem before. Do we need a FIFO of functions (and flags if I add a flag that changes the parameter) or do we tell all designers of external free functions they MUST save the pre-existing external free function (and flag for the same reason as above) and they MUST (restore the flag and) call the pre-existing external free AFTER executing their code. And would the same apply to the external reference now in the 2.2 code? we can delay this problem by saying that will have to change my design and I can't reserve these buffers and I will have to allocate every buffer on the fly, but this is not going to solve the problem of the future when two stacks using the same buffer want to use the external free function and would the same go for the external reference function. (now slipping into silly mode) tell me friends, do you want big government (mbuf structure changes to give us a FIFO of routines), or local solutions (make the driver writers to do the right thing). If elected, I promise ... #include --mark. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 07:51:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA27843 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 07:51:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from whale.gu.kiev.ua (www2-1251.gu.kiev.ua [193.124.51.79]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA27597 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 07:47:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from creator.gu.kiev.ua (stesin@creator.gu.kiev.ua [193.124.51.73]) by whale.gu.kiev.ua (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA105618; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:38:57 +0300 Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:38:56 +0300 (EET DST) From: Andrew Stesin X-Sender: stesin@creator.gu.kiev.ua cc: Kostas Asvestas , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Planet PCI Ethernet Card In-Reply-To: <8755.845618946@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: X-NCC-RegID: ua.gu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:09:06 -0700 > From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" > To: Kostas Asvestas > Cc: hackers@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: Planet PCI Ethernet Card > > > So i've checked and i've seen that there is a way to use NE2000 > > "clones" but only in the isa bus. > > Well, sort of. In 2.2 there is detection code for NE2000 PCI clone > cards, but not 2.1.5. anyway, install the card, boot dos, use the card's configuration utility to get info on where the card is put by PCI (I/O base, IRQ). I've seen i.e. 0x6000 irq10... then 'boot -c' FreeBSD and tell userconfig (in command line, not in visual mode) where your card lives (ed0 device). It will work. > > Jordan > -- Best, Andrew Stesin nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 08:02:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA28652 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:02:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (disn4.cybercity.dk [194.16.57.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA28639; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:02:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA05936; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:01:34 +0200 (MET DST) To: Joe Greco cc: proff@suburbia.net (Julian Assange), hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SLIP speed In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:27:47 CDT." <199610181327.IAA02721@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:01:33 +0200 Message-ID: <5934.845650893@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >Does anybody care to try 300 or 110 baud IP? :-) NO! Not again. I have tried that about 40 Mb too much. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 08:24:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA00409 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:24:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from minnow.render.com (render.demon.co.uk [158.152.30.118]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA00385 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from minnow.render.com (minnow.render.com [193.195.178.1]) by minnow.render.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA22761; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:23:23 +0100 Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:23:21 +0100 (BST) From: Doug Rabson To: Karl Denninger cc: Michael Hancock , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Recent hacking (was Re: FreeBSD 2.2.x release question) In-Reply-To: <199610171810.NAA00720@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Karl Denninger wrote: > Current speculation is that this is a vnode cache handling problem of some > kind, where the vnode for the desired directory is being "flushed" but > never reloaded into the cache. We're still investigating and searching for > the root cause. > > Note that this appears to happen on directories with LARGE numbers of > subdirectory entries -- and not on ones with small numbers of directories. > I've never seen it occur, for example, on MY home directory -- but I'm on a > disk pack with maybe 20 directories at the same level that I'm on. > > The places where it happens frequently have perhaps 3,000 - 4,000 directories > at the same level, which is common on our big user disks. Can you try this patch and see if it fixes (or changes) your problem? Index: nfs_bio.c =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/sys/nfs/nfs_bio.c,v retrieving revision 1.27 diff -u -r1.27 nfs_bio.c --- nfs_bio.c 1996/10/12 17:39:39 1.27 +++ nfs_bio.c 1996/10/18 15:20:40 @@ -319,6 +319,7 @@ vfs_busy_pages(bp, 0); error = nfs_doio(bp, cred, p); if (error) { + vfs_unbusy_pages(bp); brelse(bp); while (error == NFSERR_BAD_COOKIE) { nfs_invaldir(vp); @@ -337,7 +338,10 @@ bp->b_flags |= B_READ; vfs_busy_pages(bp, 0); error = nfs_doio(bp, cred, p); - if (error) + if (error) { + vfs_unbusy_pages(bp); + brelse(bp); + } else if (i < lbn) brelse(bp); } } Index: nfs_vnops.c =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/sys/nfs/nfs_vnops.c,v retrieving revision 1.35 diff -u -r1.35 nfs_vnops.c --- nfs_vnops.c 1996/09/19 18:21:01 1.35 +++ nfs_vnops.c 1996/10/18 15:20:42 @@ -2066,13 +2066,13 @@ #endif /* - * If there is no cookie, assume end of directory. + * If there is no cookie, assume directory was stale. */ cookiep = nfs_getcookie(dnp, uiop->uio_offset, 0); if (cookiep) cookie = *cookiep; else - return (0); + return (NFSERR_BAD_COOKIE); /* * Loop around doing readdir rpc's of size nm_readdirsize * truncated to a multiple of DIRBLKSIZ. @@ -2255,13 +2255,13 @@ newvp = NULLVP; /* - * If there is no cookie, assume end of directory. + * If there is no cookie, assume directory was stale. */ cookiep = nfs_getcookie(dnp, uiop->uio_offset, 0); if (cookiep) cookie = *cookiep; else - return (0); + return (NFSERR_BAD_COOKIE); /* * Loop around doing readdir rpc's of size nm_readdirsize * truncated to a multiple of DIRBLKSIZ. -- Doug Rabson, Microsoft RenderMorphics Ltd. Mail: dfr@render.com Phone: +44 171 734 3761 FAX: +44 171 734 6426 From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 08:50:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA02594 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:50:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA02586 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:50:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA09841; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:50:06 -0700 (PDT) To: Doug Rabson cc: Nate Williams , "Brian N. Handy" , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 2.2-961006-SNAP keyboard lockup In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:41:14 BST." Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:50:06 -0700 Message-ID: <9839.845653806@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I had this problem and I 'fixed' it by changing from syscons to pcvt. I > am *not* using one of those miserable M$ keyboards (we have stacks of them > here and I hate them). Hmmm... (and I like my M$ keyboard, so pbbbblt! :-). Let me try this myself, and if it fixes the problem then I can get back to X Inside and tell them that the problem is on our end, not theirs. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 08:54:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA03031 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:54:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA03026 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA24597; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:54:21 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:54:21 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199610181554.JAA24597@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Doug Rabson , Nate Williams , "Brian N. Handy" , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 2.2-961006-SNAP keyboard lockup In-Reply-To: <9839.845653806@time.cdrom.com> References: <9839.845653806@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > > I had this problem and I 'fixed' it by changing from syscons to pcvt. I > > am *not* using one of those miserable M$ keyboards (we have stacks of them > > here and I hate them). > > Hmmm... (and I like my M$ keyboard, so pbbbblt! :-). Me too. It took a couple weeks of using it, but I (and my wrists) prefer it to normal keyboards. > Let me try this > myself, and if it fixes the problem then I can get back to X Inside > and tell them that the problem is on our end, not theirs. I can tell you almost equivicolly (sp?) that it's our problem. I have never run XInside (except for demos) on any of my boxes and it locks up all the time both in and out of X. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 09:01:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA03640 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:01:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA03634 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:01:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.7.6/8.6.9) id BAA13796; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:57:01 +1000 Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:57:01 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199610181557.BAA13796@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: branson@widomaker.com, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com Subject: Re: TERM=cons25 in roots' .profile?!? Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Anyone have ideas about a more general fix than throwing an explicit >TERM=xxxx in .profile? Don't login as root, use su :-). /.profile shouldn't be a (sym)link to /root/.profile. It shouldn't set HOME to /root. Then you can just edit /.profile to suit the boot environment. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 09:04:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA03792 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:04:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA03785 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.7.6/8.6.5) with SMTP id JAA14869; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:04:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610181604.JAA14869@root.com> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.root.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: gritton@byu.edu cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@NetBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:47:06 MDT." <199610181447.IAA05206@saskatchewan.et.byu.edu> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:04:58 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Karl Denninger writes: > >> If there was a separate "destroy-data" call, that would be ok. But there >> isn't, and as such the ONLY way to have any security in these dbm routines >> is to have the system enforce it. > > Adding the call seems easy enough, and seems the most elegant solution. It doesn't solve the real problem. The problem is that applications that were privileged might read sensitive data and store it internally. The dbm routines are only one instance of the "store internally" problem. There are countless other cases where similar things could happen...even temporary garbage on the stack can be a problem. The ONLY solution is to not allow coredumps of processes that might contain sensitive data. The change that was made to hash_buf.c should be backed out and attempts should be made to ensure that the coredump won't happen in cases where sensitive data may be a problem. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 09:05:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA03956 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:05:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA03944 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:05:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id LAA03240; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:04:19 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610181604.LAA03240@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: TERM=cons25 in roots' .profile?!? To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:04:19 -0500 (CDT) Cc: branson@widomaker.com, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610181557.BAA13796@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at Oct 19, 96 01:57:01 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >Anyone have ideas about a more general fix than throwing an explicit > >TERM=xxxx in .profile? > > Don't login as root, use su :-). THAT should be in /root/.profile. > /.profile shouldn't be a (sym)link to /root/.profile. It shouldn't > set HOME to /root. Then you can just edit /.profile to suit the boot > environment. That would be pretty reasonable, I think. ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 09:08:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA04122 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA04117; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:08:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610181608.JAA04117@freefall.freebsd.org> To: matthew green cc: jdp@polstra.com, ache@nagual.ru, guido@gvr.win.tue.nl, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, phk@critter.tfs.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@netbsd.org, Karl Denninger Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:47:09 +1000." <199610180847.SAA17954@eterna.com.au> Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:08:07 -0700 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > >A program which calls setuid() isn't SUID any more. Once done, that's > >terminal (and can't be "recalled"). > > The saved UID is not perterbed which allows you to determine that the > program was setuid. > >setuid() changes the effective, real and saved user ids. RTFM if you >don't believe me. I miss read a portion of the daemon book, my appologies. >the correct way to check if a process was started setuid or setgid is >to check the SUGID flag. I should have simply looked at the source. -- Justin T. Gibbs =========================================== FreeBSD: Turning PCs into workstations =========================================== From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 09:17:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA04650 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:17:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA04642; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:16:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610181616.JAA04642@freefall.freebsd.org> To: Joe Greco cc: karl@mcs.net, jdp@polstra.com, ache@nagual.ru, guido@gvr.win.tue.nl, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, phk@critter.tfs.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@netbsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:24:48 CDT." <199610181324.IAA02709@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:16:58 -0700 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> Which is what is accomplished, just in this case its by the kernel (where >> security should be enforced) not by a library. > >I assume (hope!) that you are saying that the "fix" in the "kernel" is >appropriate protection of the core file, not somehow mangling the contents >of the core file to provide this protection. Yes, it is by protecting the core file. >> >What's the objection to clearing possibly-contaminated structures when a >> >program signifies its done with a privileged resource? >> >> It causes any db client to pay this penalty regardless of what is stored >> in the database. That is bad design. > >Would it be possible to extend the db interface to have a "suicide call" >that wiped itself clean? Something that would not interfere with normal >db functions, but instead act as an extension? It shouldn't be necessary if you protect the core dump, ptrace, kmem, etc paths of attacks. What happens if you core dump in the library or before you can call the "cleanup" routine? -- Justin T. Gibbs =========================================== FreeBSD: Turning PCs into workstations =========================================== From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 09:36:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA05890 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:36:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA05871 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:36:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rover.village.org (8.7.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id KAA16346; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:35:41 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199610181635.KAA16346@rover.village.org> To: Joe Greco Subject: Re: TERM=cons25 in roots' .profile?!? Cc: branson@widomaker.com (Branson Matheson), freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:36:29 CDT." <199610181336.IAA02730@brasil.moneng.mei.com> References: <199610181336.IAA02730@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:35:41 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199610181336.IAA02730@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Joe Greco writes: : > TERM=cons25 <<<< This is bad. : > export TERM Doesn't "TERM=${TERM:-cons25}" do the trick? Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 09:42:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA06388 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:42:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA06383 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:42:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id LAA03395; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:41:29 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610181641.LAA03395@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: TERM=cons25 in roots' .profile?!? To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:41:28 -0500 (CDT) Cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, branson@widomaker.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610181635.KAA16346@rover.village.org> from "Warner Losh" at Oct 18, 96 10:35:41 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > In message <199610181336.IAA02730@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Joe Greco writes: > : > TERM=cons25 <<<< This is bad. > : > export TERM > > Doesn't "TERM=${TERM:-cons25}" do the trick? It is a better fix, but not a complete fix. I think the suggestion put forth by Bruce has somewhat more merit, as it does not try to solve the problem in a single place. It has the advantage of not setting HOME as well. Anything is probably better than the current hard coding though. ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 09:57:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA07370 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:57:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA07332 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:57:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailbox.mcs.com (Mailbox.mcs.com [192.160.127.87]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id LAA24197; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:57:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mailbox.mcs.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.15) id ; Fri, 18 Oct 96 11:56 CDT Received: (from karl@localhost) by Jupiter.Mcs.Net (8.8.Beta.6/8.8.Beta.3) id LAA26366; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:56:58 -0500 (CDT) From: Karl Denninger Message-Id: <199610181656.LAA26366@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c To: dg@Root.COM Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:56:57 -0500 (CDT) Cc: gritton@byu.edu, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@NetBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199610181604.JAA14869@root.com> from "David Greenman" at Oct 18, 96 09:04:58 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > >Karl Denninger writes: > > > >> If there was a separate "destroy-data" call, that would be ok. But there > >> isn't, and as such the ONLY way to have any security in these dbm routines > >> is to have the system enforce it. > > > > Adding the call seems easy enough, and seems the most elegant solution. > > It doesn't solve the real problem. The problem is that applications that > were privileged might read sensitive data and store it internally. The dbm > routines are only one instance of the "store internally" problem. There are > countless other cases where similar things could happen...even temporary > garbage on the stack can be a problem. > The ONLY solution is to not allow coredumps of processes that might contain > sensitive data. The change that was made to hash_buf.c should be backed out > and attempts should be made to ensure that the coredump won't happen in cases > where sensitive data may be a problem. > > -DG > > David Greenman > Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project I respectfully disagree. It is one thing to be responsible for data under your control (anything you allocate on the stack or in the data segment). It is another to try to force people to be responsible for data which is under the control of the *system*, when the data types involved are opaque. If you're arguing for no core dumps of anything which could contain sensitive data, then the bottom line is that you have to decline any of the following: 1) ptrace() on any process which was STARTED Suid (not "currently is" SUID). This precludes debugging on a process in this state. 2) Any process which starts with the SUID or SGID bit on must internally decline to dump core (regardless of ulimit settings) at all times -- both while SUID and *IF SUID IS REVOKED BY THE JOB*. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - The Finest Internet Connectivity http://www.mcs.net/~karl | T1 from $600 monthly; speeds to DS-3 available | 23 Chicagoland Prefixes, 13 ISDN, much more Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| Email to "info@mcs.net" WWW: http://www.mcs.net/ Fax: [+1 312 248-9865] | Home of Chicago's only FULL Clarinet feed! From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 10:03:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA07695 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from casparc.ppp.net (casparc.ppp.net [194.64.12.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA07667 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:02:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ernie by casparc.ppp.net with uucp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0vEIJA-000I7BC; Fri, 18 Oct 96 18:02 MET Received: by ernie.kts.org (Smail3.1.29.1 #5) id m0vEIIf-00000GC; Fri, 18 Oct 96 19:01 MET DST Message-Id: From: hm@kts.org (Hellmuth Michaelis) Subject: disk partition editor 0.3 on freefall To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 19:01:33 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE Organization: Kitchen Table Systems Reply-To: hm@kts.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, a slightly bug-fixed version of dpe is available as dpe-0.3.tar.gz on freefall in incoming. Feedback welcome! hellmuth -- Hellmuth Michaelis hm@kts.org Hamburg, Europe (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nstall BSD ? From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 10:10:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA08412 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:10:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA08405 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:10:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.7.6/8.6.5) with SMTP id KAA15566; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610181711.KAA15566@root.com> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.root.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Karl Denninger cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, tech-userlevel@NetBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:56:57 CDT." <199610181656.LAA26366@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:11:22 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >If you're arguing for no core dumps of anything which could contain >sensitive data, then the bottom line is that you have to decline any of the >following: > >1) ptrace() on any process which was STARTED Suid (not "currently is" > SUID). This precludes debugging on a process in this state. > >2) Any process which starts with the SUID or SGID bit on must > internally decline to dump core (regardless of ulimit settings) at > all times -- both while SUID and *IF SUID IS REVOKED BY THE JOB*. Yup. ...but perhaps the way this should work is by setting the process coredump rlimit to 0 in these cases so that the program can explicitly turn coredumps back on when debugging. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 10:23:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA09222 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:23:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA09173 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id LAA03323; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:21:17 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610181621.LAA03323@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c To: gibbs@freefall.freebsd.org (Justin T. Gibbs) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:21:16 -0500 (CDT) Cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, karl@mcs.net, jdp@polstra.com, ache@nagual.ru, guido@gvr.win.tue.nl, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, phk@critter.tfs.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@netbsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610181616.JAA04642@freefall.freebsd.org> from "Justin T. Gibbs" at Oct 18, 96 09:16:58 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >Would it be possible to extend the db interface to have a "suicide call" > >that wiped itself clean? Something that would not interfere with normal > >db functions, but instead act as an extension? > > It shouldn't be necessary if you protect the core dump, ptrace, kmem, etc > paths of attacks. What happens if you core dump in the library or before > you can call the "cleanup" routine? You have a smaller window of (potential) risk. I would assume that the core dump is protected regardless. Then it becomes a matter of what happens when something you do not anticipate happens, and an exploit is devised. (I know, I know, I should think more positively) :-) ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 10:24:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA09478 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:24:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toth.hq.ferg.com (pm3-18.wmbg.widomaker.com [206.161.154.83]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA09473 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:24:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toth.hq.ferg.com (localhost.hq.ferg.com [127.0.0.1]) by toth.hq.ferg.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA19466; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:23:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:23:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Branson Matheson X-Sender: branson@toth.hq.ferg.com To: Joe Greco cc: Bruce Evans , jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: TERM=cons25 in roots' .profile?!? In-Reply-To: <199610181604.LAA03240@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, Joe Greco wrote: > > >Anyone have ideas about a more general fix than throwing an explicit > > >TERM=xxxx in .profile? > > > > Don't login as root, use su :-). > > THAT should be in /root/.profile. > > > /.profile shouldn't be a (sym)link to /root/.profile. It shouldn't > > set HOME to /root. Then you can just edit /.profile to suit the boot > > environment. > > That would be pretty reasonable, I think. > > ... JG > I was trying to find a way to get the run level on a FreeBSD machine.. and I did not come up with a way. I can prove what level it is at by what is mounted.. etc.. but nothing that definiativly proves it. If we could find somthing ( that worked with just root mounted r/o ) we could use that as a switch for the console setting. -branson ============================================================================= Branson Matheson | Ferguson Enterprises | If Pete and Repeat were System Administrator | W: (804) 874-7795 | sittin on a fence and Pete Unix, Perl, WWW | branson@widomaker.com | fell off, who is left? From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 10:35:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA10361 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:35:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sovcom.kiae.su (sovcom.kiae.su [193.125.152.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA10353 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:35:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sovcom.kiae.su id AA25038 (5.65.kiae-1 ); Fri, 18 Oct 1996 20:27:18 +0300 Received: by sovcom.KIAE.su (UUMAIL/2.0); Fri, 18 Oct 96 20:27:17 +0300 Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.ru (8.7.6/8.7.3) id VAA03022; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:23:22 +0400 (MSD) Message-Id: <199610181723.VAA03022@nagual.ru> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c In-Reply-To: <199610181604.JAA14869@root.com> from "David Greenman" at "Oct 18, 96 09:04:58 am" To: dg@Root.COM Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:23:21 +0400 (MSD) Cc: gritton@byu.edu, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@NetBSD.ORG From: "=?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?=" (Andrey A. Chernov) Organization: self X-Class: Fast X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > The ONLY solution is to not allow coredumps of processes that might contain > sensitive data. The change that was made to hash_buf.c should be backed out > and attempts should be made to ensure that the coredump won't happen in cases > where sensitive data may be a problem. Well, personnaly I already saw at least 3 "back out" requests from core team members (including mine). How many I miss? I think it is enough amount to stop this discussion and really back it out. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://www.nagual.ru/~ache/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 10:46:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA11048 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:46:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sovcom.kiae.su (sovcom.kiae.su [193.125.152.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA11041 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:46:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sovcom.kiae.su id AA00679 (5.65.kiae-1 ); Fri, 18 Oct 1996 20:44:29 +0300 Received: by sovcom.KIAE.su (UUMAIL/2.0); Fri, 18 Oct 96 20:44:29 +0300 Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.ru (8.7.6/8.7.3) id VAA03140; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:43:25 +0400 (MSD) Message-Id: <199610181743.VAA03140@nagual.ru> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c In-Reply-To: <199610181711.KAA15566@root.com> from "David Greenman" at "Oct 18, 96 10:11:22 am" To: dg@Root.COM Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:43:25 +0400 (MSD) Cc: karl@Mcs.Net, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, tech-userlevel@NetBSD.ORG From: "=?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?=" (Andrey A. Chernov) Organization: self X-Class: Fast X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >2) Any process which starts with the SUID or SGID bit on must > > internally decline to dump core (regardless of ulimit settings) at > > all times -- both while SUID and *IF SUID IS REVOKED BY THE JOB*. Even if you revoke your suid, SUID kerner flag not cleared. It means not current suid state, but the fact that setuid was called once (even not the fact that uid is really changed). -- Andrey A. Chernov http://www.nagual.ru/~ache/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 10:47:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA11198 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:47:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (caleeds@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu [138.87.1.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA11184 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:47:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA28902; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:47:03 -0500 From: caleeds@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (Cheryl A. Leeds) Message-Id: <9610181747.AA28902@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> Subject: Re: Hi mommy! To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:47:03 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <9610181708.AA30406@loki.cmp.ilstu.edu> from "colleen@babyland.com>" at Oct 18, 96 12:08:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Danny where are you and why haven't you written me. Write me back and give me your address and phone number. cheri From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 10:48:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA11358 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:48:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.50.29]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA11348 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:48:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA24797; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:37:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610181737.KAA24797@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Karl Denninger Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@netbsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:37:09 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:56:57 -0500 (CDT) Karl Denninger wrote: > If you're arguing for no core dumps of anything which could contain > sensitive data, then the bottom line is that you have to decline any of the > following: > > 1) ptrace() on any process which was STARTED Suid (not "currently is" > SUID). This precludes debugging on a process in this state. ...unless you're root. It's not a stretch to assume that if you're debugging a setuid-0 system executable, that you have root privvies on the system. > 2) Any process which starts with the SUID or SGID bit on must > internally decline to dump core (regardless of ulimit settings) at > all times -- both while SUID and *IF SUID IS REVOKED BY THE JOB*. The program doens't have to do this... the _kernel_ should (and, under NetBSD, does); see coredump() in kern_sig.c. Quite honestly, I think it's very much worth the trade-off of "Gee, that program didn't core when it crashed" or "Gee, I can't read the core it dropped" in order to keep sensitive information out of the hands of bozos. Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: 408.866.1912 NAS: M/S 258-6 Work: 415.604.0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: 415.428.6939 From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 11:25:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA13884 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:25:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA13873 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:25:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id NAA03626; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:25:04 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199610181825.NAA03626@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: TERM=cons25 in roots' .profile?!? To: branson@widomaker.com (Branson Matheson) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:25:04 -0500 (CDT) Cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, bde@zeta.org.au, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Branson Matheson" at Oct 18, 96 01:23:04 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I was trying to find a way to get the run level on a FreeBSD > machine.. and I did not come up with a way. I can prove what level > it is at by what is mounted.. etc.. but nothing that definiativly > proves it. If we could find somthing ( that worked with just root > mounted r/o ) we could use that as a switch for the console setting. Hi Branson, If you are in single user mode, the profile that is run is the one in "/.profile" (at least, it used to be, and I believe that this is still true. Somebody please correct me if not!). If you are logging in, root's home directory as listed in /etc/passwd is "/root", and the "/root/.profile" in that directory is run instead. At this time, both .profiles are the same (linked). That is the significance of Bruce's suggestion... it is not perfect but I think it is the solution I would consider preferable. No solution can really be perfect, methinks. ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 11:44:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA15528 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:44:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA15521 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:44:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from current1.whistle.com (current1.whistle.com [207.76.205.22]) by alpo.whistle.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA10087 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:43:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3267CF5A.64880EEB@whistle.com> Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:41:30 -0700 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Hi mommy! References: <9610181747.AA28902@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk how this got to hackers We'' probably never find out, but I'm sure there's a good story there somewhere.. Cheryl A. Leeds wrote: (to FreeBSD-hackers) > > Danny where are you and why haven't you written me. Write me back and give me > your address and phone number. > > cheri ok, who volunteers to be danny this time? ;-) julian From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 11:48:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA15706 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:48:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA15697 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:48:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA01719; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:45:02 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610181845.LAA01719@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: new filesystem To: graphix@iastate.edu Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:45:02 -0700 (MST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <9610180215.AA12203@spiff.cc.iastate.edu> from "Kent Vander Velden" at Oct 17, 96 09:15:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Well, despite Poul's attempted throttleing, FS hackers should be encouraged (even if I'm not one of the people who gets encouraged), so here is a longer than 10 line response. > For a computer security class project I would like to implement the > BPL security model in a filesystem and am looking for a hint as to where > to begin. > > The BPL model uses classifications, compartments and a few simple > rules to determine if a user can access the files. Users and files > have classifications placed on them as well as belonging in > compartments. At the moment I am thinking that for the project that I > could get by with an extra 64 bits of information per file. Perhaps > 10 bits for classification and the remainder for compartment. Look at /sys/ufs/ufs/dinode.h. This file contains the on disk inode structure used by both FFS and LFS. At the end of the structure is an filed called di_spare; it is 64 bits in length, and can be used for what you want. This is the filed you referenced in your doc, but I'd like to confirm that it's OK to use it if you have ytour own FS. You will need to decide whether you want this to be an experimental, or a permananent feature of the OS. If you want this to be a permanenet feature of the OS, you will need to either duplicated the ffs or lfs or mfs code portion of the tree into another area of the tree. I suggest "/sys/ufs/bplfs", if you go this route. To make the job easier, I suggest you start with the ffs code. The lfs code will have you fighting two batlles at once. Without Margo's changes, the Lite2 changes, and my changes, it will be an uphill battle. Doing the integration would probably be harder than your initial project definition. If, on the other hand, this is just experimental, then you can probably get by with #ifdef's in your local ffs code and a mount option to the ffs mount. If you go this route, then you should place the mount option changes in /sys/ufs/ffs/ffs_vfsops.c, in the mount code. You will probably need to reserve bits in the incore file system structure, "struct fs". This structure is defined in /sys/ufs/ffs/fs.h. In either case, it's *VERY* important that you change your FS's "magic" number. You can either "hack" mkfs, or use a binary editor on an ffs mkfs'ed partition to put the new magic number on the disk. It would be much easier for you to implement the "experimental" version of a modified ffs (and a modified mount to pass the flag parameter to indicate a BPL mount). This is because the ffs code contains the embedded string "ffs" all over the pace, and is self-referential. This is actaully a violation of the reuse abstraction in the Heidemann master's thesis, but was apparantly a "rush to market" compromise put together by CSRG following the USL/UCB lawsuit settlement. It unfortunately damages your ability to "just reuse" the code simply, without a lot of function and variable name hacking. Note that if you reserve bits here, you will need to make sure that the mount, when it compares the superblocks to determine if the FS is corrupt, does not compare the areas which you are now using. This will require a change to fsck, as well, since by default fsck will compare and bail when unused fields do not match (this is intentional for versionioning). > "The Design and Implementation of the 4.4 BSD OS" talks about using > the nullfs as a starting place for a new filesystem or a layer but I am > not completely certain that this is the best choice in this case. > Perhaps the extra information could be handled at the vnode level > instead of the inode level... > > I am curious what others more experienced feel would be the best way to > do this. I would like to minimize the impact that my changes have on > the actual kernel of course. You probably *do NOT* want to use the stacking architecture for this change. The problem with stacking a security layer on top of an FS is that if the FS is a presentation export layer itself, rather than simply a block store mechanism, it would be possible to mount without the security layer, and defeat the security. This is a generic problem with their being no commonly defined "bottom end" block interface; the FS bottom end is not the same as the FS top end for FS's which consume direct storage services (this is where most of the VM complications lie, as well). This is because the default is not "deny without intervention of an upper (credential enforcement) layer". Note the current VFS framework does not allow additional routines to be added to the list of VOP's for a new FS without compiling and rebuilding all existing FS's. Because of this flaw (in /sys/kern/vfs_init.c and in the generated files /sys/compile/*/vnode_if.c created by "config"), it is likely that you will want to avoid using an extended VOP set to control your extension data (ie: don't add your own VOP_ calls if you can avoid it). Instead, I suggest you modify the VOP_IOCTL() to take arguments to configure your FS. For security reasons, you should check the incoming credentials to ensure that the call is being made by the superuser (in the general interface for a non-device FS, like devfs or specfs, the VOP_IOCTL is defined to return ENOTTY -- for non-root, you should return ENOTTY). For the system call interface for the control interface, I assume you will want to allow users to manipulate their own files. Toward this end, the control structure you pass down to the ffs_ioctl() code from the VOP_IOCTL() caller should be larger than the required structure to add credential information for the user. Then, when you implement the system call, you can load the parameters, and the real credentials, and then call the VOP_IOCTL() interface with the superuser credentials. This mesches nicely with the superuser check, and only allows the superuser or the owner to manipulate the fields. Additionally, it allows you to enforce against the superuser (if you wanted to do so). This is a standard "cover channel" technique which you might find useful. Alternately, it will let you test your code from user space by making calls on any open fd to get a vnode in your fs to get down to your FS to do a manipulation there. So you can fill out the credential fields and call down using a user space utility (as root) to test your interfaces, before you go to work adding a system call. Another note on using vnodes to get to specific FS routines: if I make an ioctl(0 call on an fd that is an open file or directory on my FS, then it will call my own *_ioctl(0 routine with the vnode as a paramenter. If I want, I can then use additional parameters to the ioctl(), for instance a path name, reeenter myself for the path lookup, and actually operate on another vnode than the one that got me to the FS. This means that I can use the mount point (or from user space, an fd for the directory where the FS is mounted) to get me to the FS I want to perform the operation on, even if I'm not going to do anything to the mount point itself. Unfortunately, the best reference right now is the code; I'd write something up, if all my time weren't spent maintaining my diffs against -current for my own research (internationalization, multiple name space support, Unicode support, and soft updates, etc.). Let me know if you need additional help with anything; I'll give you information when and where I can. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 11:49:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA15787 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:49:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ux2.sp.cs.cmu.edu (UX2.SP.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.198.102]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA15781 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by ux2.sp.cs.cmu.edu id aa28251; 18 Oct 96 14:48 EDT To: Karl Denninger cc: dg@root.com, gritton@byu.edu, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@netbsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:56:57 CDT." <199610181656.LAA26366@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:48:16 -0400 Message-ID: <28242.845664496@ux2.sp.cs.cmu.edu> From: Chris G Demetriou Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > If you're arguing for no core dumps of anything which could contain > sensitive data, then the bottom line is that you have to decline any of the > following: > > 1) ptrace() on any process which was STARTED Suid (not "currently is" > SUID). This precludes debugging on a process in this state. > > 2) Any process which starts with the SUID or SGID bit on must > internally decline to dump core (regardless of ulimit settings) at > all times -- both while SUID and *IF SUID IS REVOKED BY THE JOB*. Not quite... (1) should be "ptrace() by non-root"... and you forgot: (3) access via procfs by non-root to any process which was started suid. cgd From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 11:59:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA16330 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:59:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de (ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de [134.147.6.16]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA16178 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:56:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from roberte@localhost) by ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA01124; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 20:55:45 +0200 (MET DST) From: Robert Eckardt Message-Id: <199610181855.UAA01124@ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> Subject: Re: 2.2-961014-SNAP install problem In-Reply-To: <199610180734.JAA25986@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "18. Oct. 96 9:34:12" To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 20:55:43 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > We've been repeating this over and over again: the only geometry you > should use is the same as your disk is known to the BIOS. If your > disk is not used by the BIOS at all, you can pick whatever value you > want, as long as the total number of blocks (C*H*S) on the medium is > not higher than the medium capacity. In this case, the ``dangerously So, what *can* I use ? (Sorry to interrupt here, but I felt triggered. :-) I have a Seagate ST32161A (CFA2161A) which has -- according to the doc -- 4095 Cyl., 63 Sec., 16 Hds., 2113MB with Jumper A/C installed (default) and 4160 Cyl., 63 Sec., 16 Hds., 2147MB with Jumper A/C removed. Right now the jumper is removed, but the kernel(2.1.5R) sees: /kernel: wdc0: unit 0 (wd0): /kernel: wd0: 2015MB (4127760 sectors), 4095 cyls, 16 heads, 63 S/T, 512 B/S The doc says: "As shipped from the factory, the ST32161A is set for 4095 cylinders or 2.113 Gbytes. Some system BIOS' cannot support drives having more than 4095 cylinders. If this limit is exceeded, the system may lock up or fail to boot. Consult your system manual or the BIOS manufacturer for cylinder limitations. If your system BIOS allows for more than 4095 cylinders, you may remove the jumper from pins 3 and 4 to obtain a drive capacity of 2.147 Gbytes." I tried it with the disk enabled and disabled in the BIOS (which is a '90/91 AMI). Is it save to use 4160 cyls. ? Uses the kernel probing parts of the BIOS ? Can it be a "defect" in the disk and/or controller ? (I know that the kernel returns the wrong number of cylinders for another IDE-disk (also a Conner :-) as well (1053 instead of 1054).) > dedicated'' mode is the only mode where you can use all the blocks of > the medium (which is normally larger than anything that could be > expressed as a product C*H*S where all the elements are integer > numbers). > cheers, J"org Ciao, Robert -- Robert Eckardt \\ FreeBSD -- solutions for a large universe.(tm) RobertE@MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de \\ What do you want to boot tomorrow ?(tm) http://WWW.MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de/~roberte For PGP-key finger roberte@gluon.MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 12:00:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA16407 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:00:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gw-nl1.philips.com (gw-nl1.philips.com [192.68.44.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA16362 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nobody@localhost) by gw-nl1.philips.com (8.6.10/8.6.10-0.994n-08Nov95) id UAA11308 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 20:59:56 +0200 Received: from unknown(130.139.36.3) by gw-nl1.philips.com via smap (V1.3+ESMTP) with ESMTP id sma011204; Fri Oct 18 20:59:11 1996 Received: from spooky.lss.cp.philips.com (spooky.lss.cp.philips.com [130.144.199.105]) by smtprelay.nl.cis.philips.com (8.6.10/8.6.10-1.2.1m-961011) with ESMTP id UAA07274 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 20:59:09 +0200 Received: (from guido@localhost) by spooky.lss.cp.philips.com (8.6.10/8.6.10-0.991c-08Nov95) id UAA14544 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 20:59:09 +0200 From: Guido van Rooij Message-Id: <199610181859.UAA14544@spooky.lss.cp.philips.com> Subject: fix for symlinks in /tmp (fwd) FYI To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 20:59:09 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: Guido.vanRooij@nl.cis.philips.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL19 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ----- Forwarded message from Andrew Tridgell ----- >From owner-bugtraq@NETSPACE.ORG Fri Oct 18 19:47:53 1996 Approved-By: ALEPH1@UNDERGROUND.ORG Approved-By: Andrew Tridgell Message-ID: <96Oct18.230213+1000est.65277-170+2281@arvidsjaur.anu.edu.au> Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 23:02:01 +1000 Reply-To: Andrew.Tridgell@anu.edu.au Sender: Bugtraq List From: Andrew Tridgell Subject: fix for symlinks in /tmp To: Multiple recipients of list BUGTRAQ I have created a patch for Linux that fixes the generic problem of security holes due to symlinks being used in /tmp. The patch changes the kernels namei code so that symlinks will not be followed if: 1) the t bit is set on the directory containing the symlink and 2) the euid of the process does not match the owner of the symlink. The patch explicitly includes root, so root will not be able to follow symlinks in /tmp unless it owns them. I believe this change fixes all the "symlink-in-/tmp" style of security holes while having a minimal impact on the normal use of symlinks. In case you don't think this change is necessary you should think about how many recent security holes in unix-like systems have been due to sloppy coding of programs that create files in /tmp. I also noticed today that gcc is vulnerable to this kind of bug (as of version 2.7.2), so potentially you can attack anyone who compiles anything on your system. I know there have been other proposed generic fixes for this style of bug, but they tend to suffer from the problem of requiring people to change the way they work. The above fix should not be very noticeable to normal users of a system. I've submitted the patch to Linus, and have also made it available on ftp://samba.anu.edu.au/pub/linux/symlink.patch The patch is against Linux kernel 2.0.22, although it should work with any recent kernel. The active part of the patch is only a few lines long. Can anyone see any problems with this proposal? Cheers, Andrew -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Andrew Tridgell Dept. of Computer Science email: Andrew.Tridgell@anu.edu.au Australian National University Phone: +61 6 254 8209 Fax: +61 6 249 0010 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ----- End of forwarded message from Andrew Tridgell ----- From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 12:05:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA16655 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:05:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA16650 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:05:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA01751; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:04:06 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610181904.MAA01751@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: NFS node: disappearing directory To: michaelh@cet.co.jp Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:04:06 -0700 (MST) Cc: karl@Mcs.Net, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Michael Hancock" at Oct 18, 96 03:07:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Ah, another question requiring more than a 10 line answer. 8-(. > > > But 3) says it does get reloaded. > > > > Sometimes. But if go to the "up-level" when it happens and do a "ls", you > > get a VERY short list (~10% of what's really there - right about 200 > > entries) > > Umm. Is John around? What kind of memory does the result of readdir go > into? Depends on the FS. For NFS, "bogus cookie handling memory which was allocated for fear the user buffer would be too small to return the data". The problem is cookie related. The fix is to get rid of the cookie code. The cookie code was introduced because the on disk directory structure and the exported directory structure for NFS is no longer the same (the NFS standard did not get changed to accomodate BSD). In other words, struct direct != struct dirent. In FFS, the exported directory structure is the same one that is returned via the system call interface; in other words, it matches the on disk structure of the default FS. Because the NFS structure is a different size, there is no way to know if the interface will have a buffer large enough to deal with the data returned. In general, we can consider the NFS server a consumer of the VFS interface. Similarly, system calls are a consumer of the VFS interface. The generic soloution is therefore to pass back a directory block reference from the FS, and then *use an FS specific VOP_ call to translate the buffer contents on demand ito the consumer buffer format*. For UFS, this would be a null op on the buffer. For NFS, this would be a page allocate and a data copy, and since memory access is significantly faster than network access, this would not impose too much overhead (the cookie crap adds copy overhead anyway). For the generic "restart", the entry offset is passed in, and the block is traversed by the underlying FS. If it gets to an entry whose offset matches that passed in, then it is just returned; if it goes past it, then an FS dependent action is taken: o for pre-compation FS's, the entry is assumed to be compacted, and the entry prior to the entry following the restart point is returned, on the assumption that entries were moved down in the block. o for post-compacting sparse directory block FS's (like ffs), the entry is assumed to have been deleted, and is returned. This is legal because the getdents() call is assumed to work on a "snaphot" of the directory, not the actual directory structure. For what it's worth, the cookie code presumes a copy, which no longer takes place in the unified cache case, so that it can reference it out out the VM instead of out of the (potentially volatile) buffer cache. This implementation was discussed in great detail by myself and Doug Rabson about 18 months ago on the -current list. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 12:20:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA17388 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:20:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (disn1.cybercity.dk [194.16.57.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA17370; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:20:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA06459; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:20:14 +0200 (MET DST) To: Julian Elischer cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hi mommy! In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:41:30 PDT." <3267CF5A.64880EEB@whistle.com> Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:20:14 +0200 Message-ID: <6457.845666414@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <3267CF5A.64880EEB@whistle.com>, Julian Elischer writes: Yes, yet another scam. Don't send the address & phone of anybody you like (hint hint ! :-) >how this got to hackers We'' probably never find out, >but I'm sure there's a good story there somewhere.. > >Cheryl A. Leeds wrote: (to FreeBSD-hackers) > >> >> Danny where are you and why haven't you written me. Write me back and give m >e >> your address and phone number. >> >> cheri > >ok, who volunteers to be danny this time? > >;-) > >julian -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 12:23:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA17514 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:23:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (disn1.cybercity.dk [194.16.57.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA17505; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:23:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA06483; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:23:07 +0200 (MET DST) To: Terry Lambert cc: graphix@iastate.edu, hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: new filesystem In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:45:02 PDT." <199610181845.LAA01719@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:23:07 +0200 Message-ID: <6481.845666587@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199610181845.LAA01719@phaeton.artisoft.com>, Terry Lambert writes: >Well, despite Poul's attempted throttleing, FS hackers should be >encouraged (even if I'm not one of the people who gets encouraged), >so here is a longer than 10 line response. I will not object as long as they make sense in the context of FreeBSD, but intelectual analysis of the interactions in groups of Homo Ludens is not what we have these lists for. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 12:51:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA19353 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:51:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA19336 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:51:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id VAA04628 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:51:32 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id VAA23745 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:51:31 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.6/8.6.9) id VAA27562 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:48:01 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610181948.VAA27562@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: 2.2-961014-SNAP install problem To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:48:01 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199610181418.AAA11364@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from Bruce Evans at "Oct 19, 96 00:18:13 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Bruce Evans wrote: > >not higher than the medium capacity. In this case, the ``dangerously > >dedicated'' mode is the only mode where you can use all the blocks of > >the medium > > No, `C' is not recorded anywhere (except possibly for MFM/ESDI/IDE > disks), there is no requirement that C*H*S <= the medium capacity, > and no advantage for the dangerously dedicated mode. Everything else than dangerously dedicated mode insists on wasting a bunch of sectors in the first ficticous cylinder, and all the sectors after the last complete ficticous cylinder, for DOS compat sake. > (which is normally larger than anything that could be > >expressed as a product C*H*S where all the elements are integer > >numbers). > > No, medium sizes are normally smaller than 1024*255*63 (almost 8GB). That wasn't the question. It's only that the integer product of C*H*S is <= . Since the installation tool uses C*H*S as the number of blocks on drive, it wastes space. (Newfs wastes space, too, since it can also only think in terms of cylinders.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 13:03:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA20335 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de (ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de [134.147.6.16]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA20205 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:01:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from roberte@localhost) by ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA01261; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:57:11 +0200 (MET DST) From: Robert Eckardt Message-Id: <199610181957.VAA01261@ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> Subject: Re: TERM=cons25 in roots' .profile?!? In-Reply-To: <199610181336.IAA02730@brasil.moneng.mei.com> from Joe Greco at "18. Oct. 96 8:33:33" To: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com (Joe Greco) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:57:10 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: branson@widomaker.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > TERM=cons25 <<<< This is bad. > > export TERM [...] > It is not so clearly wrong in the case where you are in single user > mode, but it is still wrong: if you have a serial console and a vt100, > "cons25" does not work well. However, it is less clear what the > correct solution is, in this case. > > Personally, this does not bother me too much, since I am used to fixing > broken environments to be able to work, but this might be rather > frustrating to someone a little newer to UNIX. > > Anyone have ideas about a more general fix than throwing an explicit > TERM=xxxx in .profile? I put TERM=${TERM:-cons25} in my /etc/profile This should be changed by hand if someone uses a serial console, but it cares for the common cases of single/multi user mode logins. Robert -- Robert Eckardt \\ FreeBSD -- solutions for a large universe.(tm) RobertE@MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de \\ What do you want to boot tomorrow ?(tm) http://WWW.MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de/~roberte For PGP-key finger roberte@gluon.MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 13:18:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA21223 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:18:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from seagull.rtd.com (root@seagull.rtd.com [198.102.68.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA21215 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:17:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dgy@localhost) by seagull.rtd.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA18407; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:17:20 -0700 (MST) From: Don Yuniskis Message-Id: <199610182017.NAA18407@seagull.rtd.com> Subject: Re: Hi mommy! To: julian@whistle.com (Julian Elischer) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:17:20 -0700 (MST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <3267CF5A.64880EEB@whistle.com> from "Julian Elischer" at Oct 18, 96 11:41:30 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It seems that Julian Elischer said: > > how this got to hackers We'' probably never find out, > but I'm sure there's a good story there somewhere.. > > Cheryl A. Leeds wrote: (to FreeBSD-hackers) > > > Danny where are you and why haven't you written me. Write me back and give me > > your address and phone number. > > > > cheri > > ok, who volunteers to be danny this time? Actually, there *is* a Daniel Leeds floating about... :> --don From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 13:52:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA23180 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:52:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de (ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de [134.147.6.16]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA23159 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:52:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from roberte@localhost) by ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA01360; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 22:51:26 +0200 (MET DST) From: Robert Eckardt Message-Id: <199610182051.WAA01360@ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> Subject: Re: NFS node: disappearing directory In-Reply-To: <199610181438.JAA22384@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> from Karl Denninger at "18. Oct. 96 9:35:51" To: karl@Mcs.Net (Karl Denninger) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 22:51:25 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: michaelh@cet.co.jp, karl@Mcs.Net, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Yup, just tested it > > > > /home2 root 755 > > /home2/contrib root 711 > > /home2/contrib/joe joe 700 > > > > As joe, > > > > cd /home2/contrib/joe > > pwd > > /home2/contrib/joe > > Ok, then System Vs "getcwd" works differently. > > The BSD version opens /home2/contrib and READS it. You can't do that with > permission 711 (assuming you're not the owner, of course), and as a result, > "pwd" fails. > > Anyone have any idea how they're doing this? I tried this on FreeBSD 2.1.5R, ISC 2.2 (SysVr3.2) and AIX (always on the local FS). pwd fails on *all* systems in [/tmp/]home2/contrib/joe ! Robert -- Robert Eckardt \\ FreeBSD -- solutions for a large universe.(tm) RobertE@MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de \\ What do you want to boot tomorrow ?(tm) http://WWW.MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de/~roberte For PGP-key finger roberte@gluon.MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 14:13:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA23884 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:13:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E-MAIL.COM (e-mail.com [199.171.26.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA23879 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from IMXGATE.COM by E-MAIL.COM (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 5007; Fri, 18 Oct 96 17:13:29 EDT Received: from sv13.cis.squared.com by imxgate.com (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Fri, 18 Oct 96 17:11:33 EDT Received: from mg01a.mhs.squared.com by sv13.cis.squared.com (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA40540; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:11:31 -0400 Received: from NetWare MHS (SMF70) by mg01a.mhs.squared.com via Connect2-SMTP 4.00.b27D; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:05:27 -0400 Message-Id: <249DD05B0187397C@mg01a.mhs.squared.com> Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:12:22 -0400 From: "Sexton, Robert" Organization: Square D To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: X/Mouse/2.1.5 Wierdness Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-Mailer: Connect2-SMTP 4.00.b27D MHS to SMTP Gateway Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greetings all, (I've done lots of searches, but to no avail...) I recently upgraded from 2.1.0-RELEASE to 2.1.5-RELEASE. Everything, with 1 exception, works great. Under X, when moving the mouse across a window boundary, or panning the S3-based display, the display basically freezes. Drag-sizing is also broken. Its as it the machine gets _Really_ slow whenever an X event happens. The mouse is attached to a 16450 based port. I heard, wayback, that some of the X code was unoptimized, and that this caused the problem. The peculiar thing is that everything was just fine before the OS update. Any insights would be appreciated. Robert Sexton From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 14:17:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA24065 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:17:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za (zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za [146.64.24.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA24059 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:17:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from pallenby@localhost) by zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za (8.7.6/8.7.3) id XAA19683; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 23:17:05 +0200 (SAT) From: Paul Allenby Message-Id: <199610182117.XAA19683@zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za> Subject: Re: 2.2-961014-SNAP install problem In-Reply-To: <199610181948.VAA27562@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Oct 18, 96 09:48:01 pm" To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 23:17:05 +0200 (SAT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL24 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > uses C*H*S as the number of blocks on drive, it wastes space. (Newfs > wastes space, too, since it can also only think in terms of > cylinders.) > > -- > cheers, J"org Agreed! Try newfs'ing a floppy without 'c 1' ******************************************************************************** P.D.Allenby Mikomtek, CSIR, RSA. e-mail: pallenby@mikom.csir.co.za voice : (012)8414195 ******************************************************************************** From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 14:25:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA24394 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:25:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA24372 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:25:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from current1.whistle.com (current1.whistle.com [207.76.205.22]) by alpo.whistle.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA12159; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:22:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3267F479.773C2448@whistle.com> Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:19:53 -0700 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Guido.vanRooij@nl.cis.philips.com CC: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Andrew.Tridgell@anu.edu.au Subject: Re: fix for symlinks in /tmp (fwd) FYI References: <199610181859.UAA14544@spooky.lss.cp.philips.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Guido van Rooij wrote: > > ----- Forwarded message from Andrew Tridgell ----- > > The patch changes the kernels namei code so that symlinks will not be > followed if: > > 1) the t bit is set on the directory containing the symlink > and > 2) the euid of the process does not match the owner of the symlink. > > The patch explicitly includes root, so root will not be able to follow > symlinks in /tmp unless it owns them. > > I believe this change fixes all the "symlink-in-/tmp" style of > security holes while having a minimal impact on the normal use of > symlinks. I wonder if anyone can comment on this... My initial reaction is that it's breaking the expected behaviour or the system to do this.... If I see a symlink I expect it to be followed.. > > In case you don't think this change is necessary you should think > about how many recent security holes in unix-like systems have been > due to sloppy coding of programs that create files in /tmp. I also > noticed today that gcc is vulnerable to this kind of bug (as of > version 2.7.2), so potentially you can attack anyone who compiles > anything on your system. anyone from the BSD security group have comments? > > I know there have been other proposed generic fixes for this style of > bug, but they tend to suffer from the problem of requiring people to > change the way they work. The above fix should not be very noticeable > to normal users of a system. until they stumble over it. > Can anyone see any problems with this proposal? I just don't like it? julian From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 14:39:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA24961 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:39:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA24956 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:39:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.7.6/8.6.9) id HAA21401; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 07:34:43 +1000 Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 07:34:43 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199610182134.HAA21401@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de Subject: Re: 2.2-961014-SNAP install problem Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> No, `C' is not recorded anywhere (except possibly for MFM/ESDI/IDE >> disks), there is no requirement that C*H*S <= the medium capacity, >> and no advantage for the dangerously dedicated mode. > >Everything else than dangerously dedicated mode insists on wasting a >bunch of sectors in the first ficticous cylinder, ^^^^^^^^ track >and all the sectors >after the last complete ficticous cylinder, for DOS compat sake. No reason to do that except for DOS partitions. >> (which is normally larger than anything that could be >> >expressed as a product C*H*S where all the elements are integer >> >numbers). >> >> No, medium sizes are normally smaller than 1024*255*63 (almost 8GB). > >That wasn't the question. It's only that the integer product of C*H*S >is <= . Since the installation tool >uses C*H*S as the number of blocks on drive, it wastes space. (Newfs If the installation tool is that limited, then it can probably be folled by saying that there is one (or one thousand) more cylinders than there are. This works unless the installation tool attempts to verify that sector C*H*S-1 exists. Just be careful not to put slices or partitions above the last real sector. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 14:40:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA25066 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from starfire.mn.org (root@starfire.skypoint.net [199.86.32.187]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA25058 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:40:38 -0700 (PDT) From: john@starfire.mn.org Received: (from john@localhost) by starfire.mn.org (8.7.5/1.1) id QAA13841 for hackers@FreeBSD.org; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:40:04 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199610182140.QAA13841@starfire.mn.org> Subject: PPPD authentication with NT server (FreeBSD 2.1.0 client) To: hackers@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:40:03 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I am having a problem with PPPD trying to connect to an NT server. I have the LCP debug output of the CHAP failures, but don't quite know how to understand or interpret them. Any help would be most appreciated. TIA. Please include me in any replies, as I do not subscribe to this list. John Lind, Starfire Consulting Services E-mail: john@starfire.MN.ORG USnail: PO Box 17247, Mpls MN 55417 From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 14:52:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA25422 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:52:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA25416 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:52:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from current1.whistle.com (current1.whistle.com [207.76.205.22]) by alpo.whistle.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA12202; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:26:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3267F56E.6F5992E1@whistle.com> Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:23:58 -0700 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Eckardt CC: Karl Denninger , michaelh@cet.co.jp, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: NFS node: disappearing directory References: <199610182051.WAA01360@ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Robert Eckardt wrote: > I tried this on FreeBSD 2.1.5R, ISC 2.2 (SysVr3.2) and AIX > (always on the local FS). > pwd fails on *all* systems in [/tmp/]home2/contrib/joe ! > > Robert some shells keep track of where you are and thus don't actually do the getpwd call. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 14:59:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA25688 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:59:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA25683 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:58:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA02061; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:57:58 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610182157.OAA02061@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: fix for symlinks in /tmp (fwd) FYI To: julian@whistle.com (Julian Elischer) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:57:58 -0700 (MST) Cc: Guido.vanRooij@nl.cis.philips.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, Andrew.Tridgell@anu.edu.au In-Reply-To: <3267F479.773C2448@whistle.com> from "Julian Elischer" at Oct 18, 96 02:19:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I believe this change fixes all the "symlink-in-/tmp" style of > > security holes while having a minimal impact on the normal use of > > symlinks. > > I wonder if anyone can comment on this... > My initial reaction is that it's breaking the expected behaviour > or the system to do this.... > If I see a symlink I expect it to be followed.. The problem is that when you export a directory hierarchy with a hosted OS/file server, all inferior directories (mounted or not) are expected to be exported. It's as if you had an NFS server that exported /home and /usr, which were on seperate FS's, just because you exported /. The problem comes in when you put a symlink in /tmp (or any other directory to which you have access) which targets a system file. Since the server runs as root, if it's in your hierarchy, it's yours. The cannonically correct fix would be for SAMBA to export on a per FS basis (just like NFS). It would have to do this anyway, if it were ever migrated to kernel space, where it really belongs. The "next best fix" would be to lstat targets, and readlink to expand paths to their correct values in user space, and then treat the path as relative to an exported "drive" if the prefix was the same as an exported drive "export point" in the FS hierarchy. Since lstat returns the same info as stat fron non-symlink targets, it would be an additional compare (for a link target) in the case that a symlnk was being used to (potentially) attempt a security violation by "going off the volume". This is a relatively trivial hack (about as trivial as speed optimizing the SAMBA directory lookup code or its read path -- both optimizations which need to be done, IMO). > > Can anyone see any problems with this proposal? > > I just don't like it? It's the wrong fix. There are at least two better fixes, both of which generally apply to systems where the proposed fix can't be applied (the "volume only" export" could be handled in user space on systems by comparing the s_dev field of the stat buffer with the "export point" s_dev field, and refusing the request -- even works on AIX). Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 15:52:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA28472 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA28447 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:52:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id AAA08535 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:52:01 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA01328 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:52:00 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.6/8.6.9) id WAA28539 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 22:39:59 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610182039.WAA28539@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: fix for symlinks in /tmp (fwd) FYI To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 22:39:59 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199610181859.UAA14544@spooky.lss.cp.philips.com> from Guido van Rooij at "Oct 18, 96 08:59:09 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Guido van Rooij wrote: > I have created a patch for Linux that fixes the generic problem of > security holes due to symlinks being used in /tmp. > > The patch changes the kernels namei code so that symlinks will not be > followed if: > > 1) the t bit is set on the directory containing the symlink > and > 2) the euid of the process does not match the owner of the symlink. 4.4BSD's symlinks don't have owners at all. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 15:53:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA28573 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:53:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arvidsjaur (arvidsjaur.anu.edu.au [150.203.160.29]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA28568 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:53:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by arvidsjaur.anu.edu.au id <65042-172>; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 08:50:25 +1000 From: Andrew Tridgell To: terry@lambert.org CC: julian@whistle.com, Guido.vanRooij@nl.cis.philips.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-reply-to: <199610182157.OAA02061@phaeton.artisoft.com> (message from Terry Lambert on Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:57:58 -0700 (MST)) Subject: Re: fix for symlinks in /tmp (fwd) FYI Reply-to: Andrew.Tridgell@anu.edu.au Message-Id: <96Oct19.085025+1000est.65042-172+209@arvidsjaur.anu.edu.au> Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 08:50:24 +1000 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > The problem is that when you export a directory hierarchy with a hosted > OS/file server, all inferior directories (mounted or not) are expected > to be exported. > > It's as if you had an NFS server that exported /home and /usr, which > were on seperate FS's, just because you exported /. > > The problem comes in when you put a symlink in /tmp (or any other > directory to which you have access) which targets a system file. > Since the server runs as root, if it's in your hierarchy, it's > yours. > > The cannonically correct fix would be for SAMBA to export on a per > FS basis (just like NFS). It would have to do this anyway, if it > were ever migrated to kernel space, where it really belongs. Terry, I think you are mixing something up. My symlink patch has absolutely nothing to do with Samba. I do have a life outside Samba you know :-) My patch tries to address the general type of security hole in unix-like systems where users create symlinks in /tmp to try to subvert security. There have been dozens of these types of holes reported in lots of different programs. I additionally reported yesterday that gcc is vulnerable, so you can screw anyone that is compiling a program on your system. Perhaps you should read the patch at ftp://samba.anu.edu.au/pub/linux/symlink.patch I'm really after feedback answering the question "what legitimate use for symlinks does this change in semantics break". If too many things break then the patch is useless. So far I've received pretty positive feedback. Linus even likes it :-) Cheers, Andrew PS: The current version of Samba is not vulnerable to this kind of security hole anyway! From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 15:53:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA28619 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:53:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA28595 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:53:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id AAA08559; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:52:22 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA01338; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:52:21 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.6/8.6.9) id AAA29591; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:03:36 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610182203.AAA29591@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: volunteering (was: putting 'whining' to work) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:03:36 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <7454.845598005@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Oct 17, 96 05:20:05 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > How big would such a test-snap be (in Mb) ? Assuming bin only, etc. > > ~50MB But if Guido's question was merely refering to the required size of disk space: j@uriah 406% df -k /usr/release Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on /dev/sd1g 580141 20808 512922 4% /usr/release That's the partition where i (obviously ;) cut test-releases. It doesn't literally fill up to the last bit, but i believe at least 400 MB are used. The CVS tree itself is around 200 MB these days. It grew heavily with the import of gcc 2.7.2 and some other stuff in src/contrib recently, causing me to buy a larger disk for my /home filesystem... But of course, it's the same for me as for Guido: disk space and CPU cycles are much cheaper than Internet bandwidth. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 16:03:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA29388 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:03:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arvidsjaur (arvidsjaur.anu.edu.au [150.203.160.29]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA29380 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:03:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by arvidsjaur.anu.edu.au id <65030-172>; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 08:59:26 +1000 From: Andrew Tridgell To: julian@whistle.com CC: Guido.vanRooij@nl.cis.philips.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-reply-to: <3267F479.773C2448@whistle.com> (message from Julian Elischer on Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:19:53 -0700) Subject: Re: fix for symlinks in /tmp (fwd) FYI Reply-to: Andrew.Tridgell@anu.edu.au Message-Id: <96Oct19.085926+1000est.65030-172+211@arvidsjaur.anu.edu.au> Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 08:59:12 +1000 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I wonder if anyone can comment on this... > My initial reaction is that it's breaking the expected behaviour > or the system to do this.... yep, but we need to think of cases where "normal" use of symlinks will break. Can you think of any? > If I see a symlink I expect it to be followed.. yes, and if you created the symlink, or if the symlink is not in a directory with the t bit set (such as /tmp) then it will be. It just stops other people saying "if I create a symlink in /tmp then I expect that other guy to follow it (he he he)". I think that the change actually fits in well with the existing t bit behaviour. The t bit already modifies how permissions work in /tmp, I'm just extending this slightly because following a link in a world writeable directory is just as dangerous as deleting a file. > I just don't like it? Have another coffee then think of a better reason :-) It may be that my fix breaks something important. I just haven't thought of what that is yet .... Cheers, Andrew From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 16:12:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA29923 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:12:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from seine.cs.umd.edu (10862@seine.cs.umd.edu [128.8.128.59]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA29918 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:12:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by seine.cs.umd.edu (8.7.6/UMIACS-0.9/04-05-88) id TAA04920; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 19:12:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 19:12:43 -0400 (EDT) From: rohit@cs.umd.edu (Rohit Dube) Message-Id: <199610182312.TAA04920@seine.cs.umd.edu> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Conventions/Rules for adding Local ioctls Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I have been writing a pseudo-device driver (using a Major Device number reserved for local use). I need to add some ioctls to this pseudo-device driver. I was wondering if there are any (FreeBSD/BSD/Unix) rules which specify the definition of new local ioctls? In other words, how do I add a 'group' and a 'num' to an ioctl command meant for local consumption, without running the risk of conflicting with any current or future code? Thanks. --rohit. PS: sys/sys/ioccom.h - #define _IOC(inout,group,num,len) \ (inout | ((len & IOCPARM_MASK) << 16) | ((group) << 8) | (num)) #define _IOWR(g,n,t) _IOC(IOC_INOUT, (g), (n), sizeof(t)) sys/net/local.h #define _IOWR ('?', ???, u_int) From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 16:14:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA29984 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:14:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA29979 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:14:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA02213; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:12:12 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610182312.QAA02213@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: fix for symlinks in /tmp (fwd) FYI To: Andrew.Tridgell@anu.edu.au Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:12:12 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, julian@whistle.com, Guido.vanRooij@nl.cis.philips.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <96Oct19.085025+1000est.65042-172+209@arvidsjaur.anu.edu.au> from "Andrew Tridgell" at Oct 19, 96 08:50:24 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Terry, I think you are mixing something up. My symlink patch has > absolutely nothing to do with Samba. I do have a life outside Samba > you know :-) >*Ahem*< Well, that's very different. Never mind. I'm afraid your name is synonymous with SAMBA... ;-). > My patch tries to address the general type of security hole in > unix-like systems where users create symlinks in /tmp to try to > subvert security. There have been dozens of these types of holes > reported in lots of different programs. I additionally reported > yesterday that gcc is vulnerable, so you can screw anyone that is > compiling a program on your system. > > Perhaps you should read the patch at > ftp://samba.anu.edu.au/pub/linux/symlink.patch > > I'm really after feedback answering the question "what legitimate use > for symlinks does this change in semantics break". If too many things > break then the patch is useless. > > So far I've received pretty positive feedback. Linus even likes it :-) Ah. Symlinks in BSD inherit ownership of the symlink from the directory, as of BSD 4.4. Prior to BSD 4.4, when the symlinks were stored in files instead of directory entries, it is always the target of the link whose permissions are examined, not the permissions of the link itself. Finally, the main vunerability of this type is for hard link os system files into the mail directory for the mail system to indiscriminantly "append" security violating "messages", like messages containing password entries to the mailbox /etc/passwd. I don't think BSD has ever been vunerable to a "symlink attack" in the past, let alone now, since the 't' bit never worked against symlinks like the patch comments indicate it would have to to be problematic. Did you have a particular attack in mind? Is this just an instance of the "a common place root might be running from, local-file-replacement-trojan" attack? Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 16:15:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA00151 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:15:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.eu.org [193.56.58.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA00135 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:15:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.eu.org [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA31805 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:14:58 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id BAA25978 for freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:13:56 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.0/keltia-uucp-2.9) id BAA26554; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:04:10 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199610182304.BAA26554@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:04:10 +0200 From: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: fix for symlinks in /tmp (fwd) FYI In-Reply-To: <199610181859.UAA14544@spooky.lss.cp.philips.com>; from Guido van Rooij on Oct 18, 1996 20:59:09 +0200 References: <199610181859.UAA14544@spooky.lss.cp.philips.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.47.13 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT ctm#2584 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Sender: Bugtraq List > From: Andrew Tridgell > Subject: fix for symlinks in /tmp > To: Multiple recipients of list BUGTRAQ [...] > 1) the t bit is set on the directory containing the symlink > and > 2) the euid of the process does not match the owner of the symlink. This is not really applicable for 4.4BSD derived system as symlinks have no real owner except the directory's one (I'm still thinking that it is not good...). > The patch explicitly includes root, so root will not be able to follow > symlinks in /tmp unless it owns them. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 2.2-CURRENT #25: Tue Oct 15 21:13:57 MET DST 1996 From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 16:23:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA00549 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:23:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA00535 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:22:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.7.6/8.6.9) id JAA23964; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 09:19:49 +1000 Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 09:19:49 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199610182319.JAA23964@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, pallenby@mikom.csir.co.za Subject: Re: 2.2-961014-SNAP install problem Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> uses C*H*S as the number of blocks on drive, it wastes space. (Newfs >> wastes space, too, since it can also only think in terms of >> cylinders.) >> >> -- >> cheers, J"org > >Agreed! Try newfs'ing a floppy without 'c 1' I fixed this in 4.4Lite2: --- Script started on Sat Oct 19 08:33:20 1996 ttyp0:bde@gamplex:/tmp> newfs /dev/rfd1c floppy5 Warning: 1696 sector(s) in last cylinder unallocated /dev/rfd1c: 2400 sectors in 1 cylinders of 1 tracks, 4096 sectors 1.2MB in 1 cyl groups (1 c/g, 2.00MB/g, 576 i/g) super-block backups (for fsck -b #) at: 32, ttyp0:bde@gamplex:/tmp> disklabel -i /dev/rfd1c Filesystem 1024-blocks Used Avail Capacity iused ifree %iused Mounted on /dev/rfd1c 1099 0 1011 0% 3 573 1% ttyp0:bde@gamplex:/tmp> exit Script done on Sat Oct 19 08:34:08 1996 -- The old newfs is confused by the fake geometry of 1/1/4096 and generates 5 cylinder groups with 889 inodes each. With `-c 1', it generates 352 inodes. 352 is probably better than 576, but 576 is correct because the default for -i is 2048. (576 is is slightly wrong too. It is based on 1099 data blocks (576 = 1099/2 rounded up to use a multiple of 4K for inodes), but there are only 1011 avaiable (1011/2 rounded gives 512).) Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 16:36:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA01303 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:36:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA01297 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:36:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.7.6/8.6.9) id JAA24319; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 09:34:55 +1000 Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 09:34:55 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199610182334.JAA24319@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: Guido.vanRooij@nl.cis.philips.com, julian@whistle.com Subject: Re: fix for symlinks in /tmp (fwd) FYI Cc: Andrew.Tridgell@anu.edu.au, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> The patch changes the kernels namei code so that symlinks will not be >> followed if: >> >> 1) the t bit is set on the directory containing the symlink >> and >> 2) the euid of the process does not match the owner of the symlink. >I wonder if anyone can comment on this... Symlinks have the same ownership as their parent directory in BSD4.4, so this patch would be almost equivalent to disallowing symlinks in sticky directories. E.g., /tmp is owned by bin, and no process should have uid bin, so symlinks in /tmp would never be followed (even for root :-). >> In case you don't think this change is necessary you should think >> about how many recent security holes in unix-like systems have been >> due to sloppy coding of programs that create files in /tmp. I also >> noticed today that gcc is vulnerable to this kind of bug (as of >> version 2.7.2), so potentially you can attack anyone who compiles >> anything on your system. Our mkstemp() and mktemp() use O_EXCL, and gcc seems to use mktemp(), so I think gcc isn't vulnerable. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 17:07:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA03076 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:07:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA03021 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:06:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from current1.whistle.com (current1.whistle.com [207.76.205.22]) by alpo.whistle.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA14002; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:52:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <326817C5.61133CF4@whistle.com> Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:50:29 -0700 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrew.Tridgell@anu.edu.au CC: Guido.vanRooij@nl.cis.philips.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: fix for symlinks in /tmp (fwd) FYI References: <96Oct19.085926+1000est.65030-172+211@arvidsjaur.anu.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Andrew Tridgell wrote: > > > I wonder if anyone can comment on this... > > My initial reaction is that it's breaking the expected behaviour > > or the system to do this.... > > yep, but we need to think of cases where "normal" use of symlinks will > break. Can you think of any? "hey john, I set a symlink in /tmp pointing to all that stuff you need" or "hey, you asked me to check the compile of that stuff you left in /tmp for me but it doesn't work for me!" (he set one .h files as a symlink to a bunch of stuff elsewhere) "hey you said that if I used your 'lndir'd sources you left in /tmp for me, I'd see the error messages but it totally barfs for me! " It's probably not THAT common, but it MIGHT cause someone to lose hours in a very frustrating way.. > > > If I see a symlink I expect it to be followed.. > > yes, and if you created the symlink, or if the symlink is not in a > directory with the t bit set (such as /tmp) then it will be. > > It just stops other people saying "if I create a symlink in /tmp then > I expect that other guy to follow it (he he he)". I still don't see the danger in that though.... Is this something that surprising? tmpfile creation should not follow a symlink anyhow.. > > I think that the change actually fits in well with the existing t bit > behaviour. The t bit already modifies how permissions work in /tmp, > I'm just extending this slightly because following a link in a world > writeable directory is just as dangerous as deleting a file. > > > I just don't like it? > > Have another coffee then think of a better reason :-) > > It may be that my fix breaks something important. I just haven't > thought of what that is yet .... > > Cheers, Andrew From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 17:13:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA03583 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA03574 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id RAA01230 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:13:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from current1.whistle.com (current1.whistle.com [207.76.205.22]) by alpo.whistle.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA14032; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:55:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <32681871.4A7B7C1D@whistle.com> Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:53:21 -0700 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrew.Tridgell@anu.edu.au CC: terry@lambert.org, Guido.vanRooij@nl.cis.philips.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: fix for symlinks in /tmp (fwd) FYI References: <96Oct19.085025+1000est.65042-172+209@arvidsjaur.anu.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Andrew Tridgell wrote: > I'm really after feedback answering the question "what legitimate use > for symlinks does this change in semantics break". If too many things > break then the patch is useless. > > So far I've received pretty positive feedback. Linus even likes it :-) > how about "It breaks Posix semantics" ? From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 17:17:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA03774 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:17:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arvidsjaur (arvidsjaur.anu.edu.au [150.203.160.29]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA03767 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:17:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by arvidsjaur.anu.edu.au id <65030-172>; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 10:10:53 +1000 From: Andrew Tridgell To: terry@lambert.org CC: julian@whistle.com, Guido.vanRooij@nl.cis.philips.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-reply-to: <199610182312.QAA02213@phaeton.artisoft.com> (message from Terry Lambert on Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:12:12 -0700 (MST)) Subject: Re: fix for symlinks in /tmp (fwd) FYI Reply-to: Andrew.Tridgell@anu.edu.au Message-Id: <96Oct19.101053+1000est.65030-172+221@arvidsjaur.anu.edu.au> Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 10:10:43 +1000 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I'm afraid your name is synonymous with SAMBA... ;-). :-) Oh well, maybe I should change my name ... (my real job is implementing parallel Linux on our AP1000+. Nothing to do with Samba!) > I don't think BSD has ever been vunerable to a "symlink attack" in the > past, let alone now, since the 't' bit never worked against symlinks > like the patch comments indicate it would have to to be problematic. Hmmmm, I'm very skeptical that BSD is not vulnerable. > Did you have a particular attack in mind? dozens of them :-) Ok, here's one that I believe is present in gcc 2.7.2. gcc launches the assembler etc using fork/exec and passes the name of the output file on the command line. Typically this is a file in /tmp, such as "/tmp/cca02660.i" A malicious user can spot the command line and create a symlink from /tmp/cca02660.i to some file owned by the user doing the compile. The assembler then will wipe that file. Now somebody may be able to point out why this particular attack won't work, I haven't written a working exploit for it, although here is a shell script version that might work if it was about 10 times faster than it is: while [ 1 ]; do tmpfile=`ps auxwww | grep tmp | egrep -v 'grep|sed' | sed "s|.*/tmp/||g"` if [ "$tmpfile" != "" ]; then ln -s /path/to/a/file/owned/by/the/user /tmp/$tmpfile fi done why do I think gcc is vulnerable? Because of this: [9:55am]~/c>strace -f gcc hello.c | & grep /tmp access("/tmp", R_OK|W_OK) = 0 [pid 2690] execve("/usr/lib/gcc-lib/i486-linux/2.7.2/cc1", ["/usr/lib/gcc-lib/i486-linux/2.7."..., "/tmp/cca02688.i", "-quiet", "-dumpbase", "hello.c", "-o", "/tmp/cca02688.s"], [/* 27 vars */]) = 0 [pid 2691] execve("/usr/i486-linux/bin/as", ["/usr/i486-linux/bin/as", "-Qy", "-o", "/tmp/cca026881.o", "/tmp/cca02688.s"], [/* 27 vars */]) = 0 [pid 2691] open("/tmp/cca026881.o", O_WRONLY|O_CREAT|O_TRUNC, 0666) = 3 [pid 2691] open("/tmp/cca02688.s", O_RDONLY) = 5 [pid 2692] execve("/usr/i486-linux/bin/ld", ["/usr/i486-linux/bin/ld", "-m", "elf_i386", "-dynamic-linker", "/lib/ld-linux.so.1", "/usr/lib/crt1.o", "/usr/lib/crti.o", "/usr/lib/crtbegin.o", "-L/usr/lib/gcc-lib/i486-linux/2."..., "-L/usr/i486-linux/lib", "/tmp/cca026881.o", "-lgcc", "-lc", "-lgcc", "/usr/lib/crtend.o", "/usr/lib/crtn.o", ...], [/* 30 vars */]) = 0 [pid 2692] open("/tmp/cca026881.o", O_RDONLY) = 7 stat("/tmp/cca026881.o", {st_mode=S_IFREG|0644, st_size=944, ...}) = 0 unlink("/tmp/cca026881.o") = 0 stat("/tmp/cca02688.s", {st_mode=S_IFREG|0644, st_size=574, ...}) = 0 unlink("/tmp/cca02688.s") = 0 stat("/tmp/cca02688.i", {st_mode=S_IFREG|0644, st_size=7133, ...}) = 0 unlink("/tmp/cca02688.i") = 0 the important line is the one with O_CREAT in it. It doesn't have the O_EXCL bit set. Now maybe the BSD gcc isn't vulnerable to this. I have a NetBSD system here but I don't know how to make ktrace follow children (there's no man page?) The point is that there are dozens of programs written by mediocre programmers (like me) that use /tmp and don't set O_EXCL. There are also dozens of home grown sys admin shell scripts that use /tmp. In an ideal world we would fix all these programs, and be on constant lookout for more of them. This world ain't ideal and I think that the "fix all programs" approach is doomed to failure. > Is this just an instance of the "a common place root might be running > from, local-file-replacement-trojan" attack? no. For more examples (lots of them) do a search for "symlink" in the bugtraq archives at http://geek-girl.com/bugtraq/. These sorts of bugs have been around for years. Cheers, Andrew From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 17:42:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA05114 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arvidsjaur (arvidsjaur.anu.edu.au [150.203.160.29]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA05108 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:42:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by arvidsjaur.anu.edu.au id <65033-172>; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 10:40:34 +1000 From: Andrew Tridgell To: bde@zeta.org.au CC: Guido.vanRooij@nl.cis.philips.com, julian@whistle.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-reply-to: <199610182334.JAA24319@godzilla.zeta.org.au> (message from Bruce Evans on Sat, 19 Oct 1996 09:34:55 +1000) Subject: Re: fix for symlinks in /tmp (fwd) FYI Reply-to: Andrew.Tridgell@anu.edu.au Message-Id: <96Oct19.104034+1000est.65033-172+226@arvidsjaur.anu.edu.au> Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 10:40:21 +1000 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Symlinks have the same ownership as their parent directory in BSD4.4, so > this patch would be almost equivalent to disallowing symlinks in sticky > directories. E.g., /tmp is owned by bin, and no process should have > uid bin, so symlinks in /tmp would never be followed (even for root :-). ahhh, ok. Then my suggested change is useless for BSD4.4. Maybe you can come up with a different fix? It would be nice if this (or a equivalent fix) made it into all the major Unixes. I'm really sick of these "symlink-in-/tmp" bugs. There have been just too many of them. > Our mkstemp() and mktemp() use O_EXCL, and gcc seems to use mktemp(), > so I think gcc isn't vulnerable. Really? mktemp() actually creates the file? I thought that was what tmpfile() was for. Hmmm, I'll go look at my NetBSD system .... yep, nm on libc.a shows: 00000028 T _mktemp U _open U _stat so it looks like it might possibly be creating the file (and safely?). Now to test with a program .... main() { char template[100] = "/tmp/foo.XXXXXX"; puts(mktemp(template)); } running this does not create the file in /tmp. Heres the relevant ktrace output: 2774 a.out CALL stat(0xf7fff930,0xf7fff800) 2774 a.out NAMI "/tmp" 2774 a.out RET stat 0 2774 a.out CALL stat(0xf7fff930,0xf7fff800) 2774 a.out NAMI "/tmp/foo.002774" 2774 a.out RET stat -1 errno 2 No such file or directory and thats all that has anything to do with /tmp. So how does this protect you from /tmp symlink attacks? I wonder why mktemp() references open in the C library? I wonder if I have any BSD libc sources handy .... ahhh, ok, mktemp() calls: _gettemp(char *path,int *doopen) and the doopen parameter controls if the open is used to create it with O_EXCL set. mktemp() looks like this: char * mktemp(path) char *path; { return(_gettemp(path, (int *)NULL) ? path : (char *)NULL); } so doopen is set to NULL, meaning don't create. This means anyone using mktemp() still needs to be careful about setting O_EXCL. Does gcc on BSD do this? anyway, we are getting a bit off track. My suggested fix for Linux fixes the problem even for bad programmers. Its just a pity that the symlink implementation in BSD4.4 (nice though it is) makes this fix unworkable. Cheers, Andrew PS: My BSD system is a bit old (its NetBSD-current from near the end of last year) so things may have changed. We were evaluating NetBSD vs Linux for the AP1000+ at that time. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 17:52:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA05856 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:52:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arvidsjaur (arvidsjaur.anu.edu.au [150.203.160.29]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA05847 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:52:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by arvidsjaur.anu.edu.au id <65045-172>; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 10:51:09 +1000 From: Andrew Tridgell To: julian@whistle.com CC: terry@lambert.org, Guido.vanRooij@nl.cis.philips.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-reply-to: <32681871.4A7B7C1D@whistle.com> (message from Julian Elischer on Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:53:21 -0700) Subject: Re: fix for symlinks in /tmp (fwd) FYI Reply-to: Andrew.Tridgell@anu.edu.au Message-Id: <96Oct19.105109+1000est.65045-172+229@arvidsjaur.anu.edu.au> Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 10:50:55 +1000 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > how about > "It breaks Posix semantics" > ? Does posix really say something about this?? I don't have a posix standard handy here at home, can someone have a look? Cheers, Andrew From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 17:56:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA06159 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:56:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arvidsjaur (arvidsjaur.anu.edu.au [150.203.160.29]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA06152 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:56:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by arvidsjaur.anu.edu.au id <65037-172>; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 10:54:41 +1000 From: Andrew Tridgell To: julian@whistle.com CC: Guido.vanRooij@nl.cis.philips.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-reply-to: <326817C5.61133CF4@whistle.com> (message from Julian Elischer on Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:50:29 -0700) Subject: Re: fix for symlinks in /tmp (fwd) FYI Reply-to: Andrew.Tridgell@anu.edu.au Message-Id: <96Oct19.105441+1000est.65037-172+230@arvidsjaur.anu.edu.au> Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 10:54:31 +1000 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > It's probably not THAT common, but it MIGHT cause someone to lose hours > in a very frustrating way.. How many hours have been lost in a "frustrating way" when someone has broken into a system or destroyed files by exploiting this type of hole ... Surely you've noticed all the "symlink-in-/tmp" style security holes discussed on places like bugtraq? > tmpfile creation should not follow a symlink anyhow.. yep, in an ideal world it wouldn't. Its just that programs that do it unsafely and scripts that redirect stuff temporarily into /tmp are all too common. Have you never written a shell script that does something like: #!/bin/sh tmpfile=/tmp/silly_name.$$ cat > $tmpfile grep foobar $tmpfile | cut -mumble | someprog | Mail mumble grep barfoo $tmpfile | otherprog > some_log_file rm $tmpfile I know I've written such stupid things many times. I also know they are bad, wrong and terrible. But its oh so tempting to get the job done .... And I know that lots of other people do the same :-) Cheers, Andrew From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 18:14:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA07601 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:14:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA07595 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:14:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.0/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id BAA08387; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:14:04 GMT Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 10:14:04 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Doug Rabson cc: Karl Denninger , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: NFS node: disappearing directory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, Doug Rabson wrote: > and at the same time, continually list the contents of the directory > 'test', after it gets past about 'a252', the client can no longer see past > the first 4k of the directory. This is because the client detects that > the directory is modified and tries to trash its buffered copy of the > directory contents withg nfs_invaldir() and nfs_vinvalbuf(). This > confuses nfs_getcookie() and the directory appears to be truncated. I am > working on a fix. > Excellent! Progress feels good. :-) Regards, Mike Hancock From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 18:16:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA07691 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:16:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA07677 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:15:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.7.6/8.6.9) id LAA27084; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 11:15:27 +1000 Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 11:15:27 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199610190115.LAA27084@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@zeta.org.au, tridge@arvidsjaur.anu.edu.au Subject: Re: fix for symlinks in /tmp (fwd) FYI Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, Guido.vanRooij@nl.cis.philips.com, julian@whistle.com Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> Our mkstemp() and mktemp() use O_EXCL, and gcc seems to use mktemp(), >> so I think gcc isn't vulnerable. > >Really? mktemp() actually creates the file? I thought that was what >tmpfile() was for. Oops. I forgot that mktemp() was so braindamaged. >ahhh, ok, mktemp() calls: > > _gettemp(char *path,int *doopen) > >and the doopen parameter controls if the open is used to create it >with O_EXCL set. mktemp() looks like this: > >char * >mktemp(path) > char *path; >{ > return(_gettemp(path, (int *)NULL) ? path : (char *)NULL); >} > >so doopen is set to NULL, meaning don't create. This means anyone >using mktemp() still needs to be careful about setting O_EXCL. Does >gcc on BSD do this? Not in FreeBSD. There is still a race (with a much smaller window) if O_EXCL isn't used even if symlinks aren't followed. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 18:17:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA07843 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:17:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA07837 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:17:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailbox.mcs.com (Mailbox.mcs.com [192.160.127.87]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id UAA19025; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 20:17:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mailbox.mcs.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.15) id ; Fri, 18 Oct 96 20:17 CDT Received: (from karl@localhost) by Jupiter.Mcs.Net (8.8.Beta.6/8.8.Beta.3) id UAA10491; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 20:17:12 -0500 (CDT) From: Karl Denninger Message-Id: <199610190117.UAA10491@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Subject: Re: NFS node: disappearing directory To: michaelh@cet.co.jp (Michael Hancock) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 20:17:12 -0500 (CDT) Cc: dfr@render.com, karl@Mcs.Net, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Michael Hancock" at Oct 19, 96 10:14:04 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, Doug Rabson wrote: > > > and at the same time, continually list the contents of the directory > > 'test', after it gets past about 'a252', the client can no longer see past > > the first 4k of the directory. This is because the client detects that > > the directory is modified and tries to trash its buffered copy of the > > directory contents withg nfs_invaldir() and nfs_vinvalbuf(). This > > confuses nfs_getcookie() and the directory appears to be truncated. I am > > working on a fix. > > > > Excellent! Progress feels good. :-) > > Regards, > > > Mike Hancock > At this point I think we can consider this bug squashed. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - The Finest Internet Connectivity http://www.mcs.net/~karl | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | 23 Analog Prefixes, 13 ISDN, Web servers $75/mo Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| Email to "info@mcs.net" WWW: http://www.mcs.net/ Fax: [+1 312 248-9865] | 2 FULL DS-3 Internet links; 400Mbps B/W Internal From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 18:21:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA08047 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:21:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ocean.campus.luth.se (ocean.campus.luth.se [130.240.194.116]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA08042 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:21:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from karpen@localhost) by ocean.campus.luth.se (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA05422 for hackers@freebsd.org; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 03:25:14 +0200 (MET DST) From: Mikael Karpberg Message-Id: <199610190125.DAA05422@ocean.campus.luth.se> Subject: Re: C++ question To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 03:25:13 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <199610180454.WAA22620@rocky.mt.sri.com> from Nate Williams at "Oct 17, 96 10:54:07 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [stuff deleted] > So, in order to be fully conforming the code could be written as follows: > class foo { > private: > struct A { > int myint; > } > > // The C++ standard requires the friend stuff > struct B; > friend struct B; > > struct B { > A *ptr; // Disallowed in the C++ standard > } > }; > > Thanks to all, especially Mike who provided both the validation of the > Sun compiler and the solution. I seem to remember having a rather... umm... interesting experience with Sun CC at work. --- class A { class X {}; }; main() { X tmp; } --- Yupp... just tested this above code. Goes right through CC, but g++ chokes on it, (correctly) saying "`X' undeclared". If you put a // before the definition of class X, you get the correct message from CC too. ;) Ok, next test: Change "X tmp;" to "A::X tmp;". Hmm... Now CC says "Warning (Anachronism): A::X is not accessible from main().", and g++ happily compiles. So.. suddenly it's g++ (2.7.2) that is mistaken, and CC that acts correctly. Hmm... More tests, then. Change our program to: --- class A { class X {}; }; class B { class X {}; }; main() { X tmp; } --- Ah... now it works correctly in both compilers. Or rather, it doesn't work, which is the expected result. Seem like the second class X in B "leaks out" to global scope, is detected as duplicate and everything is fixed, so the compiler is "unconfused" again. :-) Hopefully we'll have the g++ bug fixed, if someone submit it (unless it's fixed in newer versions?), but... since SUN doesn't WANT bug reports... Cross our fingers for good luck? :) However... Exceptions in g++ that WORK and work as they SHOULD, and that, hopefully, can execute a fairly tricky throw within the timerange of 10 seconds... well... that seems to be somewhere on the other side of year 2000, at least... Very annoying. :( Now we HAVE to use Sun CC at work, cuz g++ can't handle it. That sucks. Give me "g++ -Wall" warnings any day instead of "CC +w2" or so... /Mikael - crossing his fingers for g++'s future success From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 18:23:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA08128 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:23:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA08122 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:23:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with UUCP id TAA13497; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 19:23:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.ampr.ab.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA03989; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 19:18:55 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 19:18:49 -0600 (MDT) From: Marc Slemko X-Sender: marcs@alive.ampr.ab.ca To: Jason Thorpe cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c In-Reply-To: <199610181737.KAA24797@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, Jason Thorpe wrote: > On Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:56:57 -0500 (CDT) > Karl Denninger wrote: > > > 2) Any process which starts with the SUID or SGID bit on must > > internally decline to dump core (regardless of ulimit settings) at > > all times -- both while SUID and *IF SUID IS REVOKED BY THE JOB*. > > The program doens't have to do this... the _kernel_ should (and, under > NetBSD, does); see coredump() in kern_sig.c. The following change was hidden away in a bigger one committed to FreeBSD-current on 1996/03/02 which seems to do the same as the NetBSD code. It appears like the problem can't be exploited in -current via any method mentioned so far in this thread. So, if we can't or don't want to find an acceptable way to clear the memory used for the buffers, I would suggest the below change from -current should be commited to -stable. I think all the other bits are in stable (ie. access via procfs, can't use ptrace on a process that has done a setuid unless you are root), although there may be a couple of fixes to the procfs restictions that aren't in -stable. If anyone can find any ways to exploit the problem under -stable if this change is made, please bring them up. *** kern_sig.c 1996/01/31 12:44:13 1.18 --- kern_sig.c 1996/03/02 19:38:09 1.19 *************** *** 1204,1210 **** --- 1200,1212 ---- int error, error1; char name[MAXCOMLEN+6]; /* progname.core */ + /* + * If we are setuid/setgid, or if we've changed uid's in the past, + * we may be holding privileged information. We must not core! + */ if (pcred->p_svuid != pcred->p_ruid || pcred->p_svgid != pcred->p_rgid) + return (EFAULT); + if (p->p_flag & P_SUGID) return (EFAULT); if (ctob(UPAGES + vm->vm_dsize + vm->vm_ssize) >= p->p_rlimit[RLIMIT_CORE].rlim_cur) From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 18:29:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA08332 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:29:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lamb.sas.com (lamb.sas.com [192.35.83.8]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA08326 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:29:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mozart by lamb.sas.com (5.65c/SAS/Gateway/01-23-95) id AA01711; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:29:18 -0400 Received: from iluvatar.unx.sas.com by mozart (5.65c/SAS/Domains/5-6-90) id AA18249; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:29:04 -0400 Received: by iluvatar.unx.sas.com (5.65c/SAS/Generic 9.01/3-26-93) id AA28637; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:29:04 -0400 From: "John W. DeBoskey" Message-Id: <199610190129.AA28637@iluvatar.unx.sas.com> Subject: Re: fix for symlinks in /tmp (example) To: hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:29:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Well: One of you wrote: >"hey john, I set a symlink in /tmp pointing to all that stuff you need" Which is exactly what my friend told me when I was having trouble installing FreeBSD... hostname:/tmp/FreeBSD -> path/to/the/middle/of/nowhere/FreeBSD where the long path didn't work in the installation dialog, hence the reason for the symlink setup by a friend of mine. This wouldn't have worked if I couldn't follow his link. Later, John -- jwd@unx.sas.com (w) John W. De Boskey (919) 677-8000 x6915 From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 18:39:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA08842 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:39:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from threadway.teeny.org (threadway.teeny.org [205.231.244.157]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA08837 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:39:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.teeny.org [127.0.0.1]) by threadway.teeny.org (8.7.6/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA12584; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:39:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610190139.SAA12584@threadway.teeny.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: "=?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?=" (Andrey A. Chernov) cc: dg@root.com, gritton@byu.edu, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@netbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:23:21 +0400." <199610181723.VAA03022@nagual.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:39:15 -0700 From: Jason Downs Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199610181723.VAA03022@nagual.ru>, "=?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?=" writes: >> The ONLY solution is to not allow coredumps of processes that might conta >in >> sensitive data. The change that was made to hash_buf.c should be backed out >> and attempts should be made to ensure that the coredump won't happen in case >s >> where sensitive data may be a problem. > >Well, personnaly I already saw at least 3 "back out" requests >from core team members (including mine). How many I miss? >I think it is enough amount to stop this discussion and really >back it out. Ah, yes. I've been watching this thread with some amount of amusement, as have other OpenBSD developers. Yes, please back it out. I would rather have OpenBSD remain the most secure version of UNIX that money can't buy. Thanks for your cooperation. -- Jason Downs (503) 256-8535 -/- (503) 952-3749 downsj@teeny.org --> teeny.org: Free Software for a Free Internet <-- http://www.teeny.org/ OpenBSD: The BSD with a soul. http://www.openbsd.org/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 18:54:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA09753 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:54:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arvidsjaur (arvidsjaur.anu.edu.au [150.203.160.29]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA09748 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:54:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by arvidsjaur.anu.edu.au id <65052-172>; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 11:50:50 +1000 From: Andrew Tridgell To: bde@zeta.org.au CC: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, Guido.vanRooij@nl.cis.philips.com, julian@whistle.com In-reply-to: <199610190115.LAA27084@godzilla.zeta.org.au> (message from Bruce Evans on Sat, 19 Oct 1996 11:15:27 +1000) Subject: Re: fix for symlinks in /tmp (fwd) FYI Reply-to: Andrew.Tridgell@anu.edu.au Message-Id: <96Oct19.115050+1000est.65052-172+234@arvidsjaur.anu.edu.au> Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 11:50:40 +1000 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >so doopen is set to NULL, meaning don't create. This means anyone > >using mktemp() still needs to be careful about setting O_EXCL. Does > >gcc on BSD do this? > > Not in FreeBSD. sorry to be so dumb, but do you mean "not in FreeBSD" as in "FreeBSD is not vulnerable" or "not in FreeBSD" as in "gcc on FreeBSD doesn't do the right thing" I strongly suspect that gcc does the same thing on all platforms, so its probably vulnerable on all platforms. > There is still a race (with a much smaller window) if O_EXCL isn't > used even if symlinks aren't followed. hmmm, do you mean the user creating a world writeable file (not a symlink) in /tmp of the right name? Its not as nasty as the things you can do with symlinks, but yes, it can be used to subvert security. Its only a security risk when the program doing the /tmp stuff can be made to do something nasty by changing the data in its /tmp files. Luckily this is much harder than the symlink style of attack (where you just point the link at some other programs data file, thereby giving you a much wider range of programs to attack) I suppose you could do this with gcc by changing the assembler code in the /tmp file to do something nasty, perhaps while root is compiling the kernel. It would not be easy though. Cheers, Andrew From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 19:55:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA12749 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 19:55:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA12742 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 19:55:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA01901; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 19:54:51 -0700 (PDT) To: Jason Downs cc: "=?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?=" (Andrey A.) Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Chernov) , dg@Root.COM, gritton@byu.edu, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@netbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:39:15 PDT." <199610190139.SAA12584@threadway.teeny.org> Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 19:54:51 -0700 Message-ID: <1899.845693691@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" > Ah, yes. I've been watching this thread with some amount of amusement, as > have other OpenBSD developers. > > Yes, please back it out. I would rather have OpenBSD remain the most secure > version of UNIX that money can't buy. "Welcome to mutual of Omaha's wild.." [click] [Earnest woman in track-suit] "When it's my time of month, and I'm a-bleedin' like a stuck pig, I need *extra* protection so I turn to the new MaxiMegaUltra.." [click] "Racer X! Do you think he could be really be my brother, Chim-chim?" "Eee! Eee eee eee!" [damn, seen this one - click] "Hi, I'm Jason and this is my brother, Pete! We've got something pretty special for you today, isn't that right Pete!" Pete: "Yep! We're going trolling, and today not for salmon!" Jason: "Nope, we won't be needing the boat at all today, in fact, because we're going on-line on The Internet, courtesy of our new sponsor, America On Line!" [holds up a diskette and points shamelessly at ``I @AOL.com'' T-shirt] Pete: "That sure was a catch, yup!" P&J: "Welcome to the home fishing channel, and today we're going: ** Trolling For Flames! **" Pete: "Hey, Jas! I get to play the Moslem fundamentalist in soc.women today, OK? You got to create all those newsgroups last time!" Jason: "Yeah, OK, just so long as I get to spread the virus panic in comp.binaries.windows.. Hey, it's gonna be a good show today, folks. We've even got some great forged email from O.J. Simpson which (giggle) we're going to post to alt.white.supremacy!" P&J: "Heeheeheeheeheeheeheehee! Hahahahahahahahaha..." [click] Sheesh, the Internet. You just can't get away from it anymore! Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 20:06:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA13069 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 20:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA13063 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 20:06:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id TAA02619; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 19:42:04 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610190242.TAA02619@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: fix for symlinks in /tmp (fwd) FYI To: Andrew.Tridgell@anu.edu.au Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 19:42:03 -0700 (MST) Cc: julian@whistle.com, terry@lambert.org, Guido.vanRooij@nl.cis.philips.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <96Oct19.105109+1000est.65045-172+229@arvidsjaur.anu.edu.au> from "Andrew Tridgell" at Oct 19, 96 10:50:55 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > how about > > "It breaks Posix semantics" > > ? > > Does posix really say something about this?? I don't have a posix > standard handy here at home, can someone have a look? Actually, PSIX does mandate sticky bit behaviour in directories. The historical BSD behavior is group inheritance, actually, totally unrelated to the behaviour needed for the bug (I think). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 20:32:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA13960 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 20:32:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arvidsjaur (arvidsjaur.anu.edu.au [150.203.160.29]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA13955 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 20:32:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by arvidsjaur.anu.edu.au id <65234-172>; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 13:30:56 +1000 From: Andrew Tridgell To: terry@lambert.org CC: julian@whistle.com, Guido.vanRooij@nl.cis.philips.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-reply-to: <199610190242.TAA02619@phaeton.artisoft.com> (message from Terry Lambert on Fri, 18 Oct 1996 19:42:03 -0700 (MST)) Subject: Re: fix for symlinks in /tmp (fwd) FYI Reply-to: Andrew.Tridgell@anu.edu.au Message-Id: <96Oct19.133056+1000est.65234-172+1149@arvidsjaur.anu.edu.au> Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 13:30:47 +1000 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry wrote: > Actually, PSIX does mandate sticky bit behaviour in directories. sure, but does it mandate that the rules for when a user can follow a symlink? That doesn't sound like a POSIX thing to me, more of a "tradition" thing. I could easily be wrong :-) Does anyone on the CC list have the relevant POSIX docs handy? > The historical BSD behavior is group inheritance, actually, totally > unrelated to the behaviour needed for the bug (I think). Hmmm, I thought group inheritance was controlled by the setgid bit on directories? Does the t bit really affect group inheritance in BSD? I'll have to dig out my NetBSD kernel sources soon :-) Cheers, Andrew From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 23:27:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA20897 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 23:27:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net ([198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA20890 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 23:27:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA02729; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:26:31 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199610190626.BAA02729@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c To: downsj@teeny.org (Jason Downs) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:26:31 -0500 (EST) Cc: ache@nagual.ru, dg@root.com, gritton@byu.edu, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@netbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610190139.SAA12584@threadway.teeny.org> from "Jason Downs" at Oct 18, 96 06:39:15 pm Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Ah, yes. I've been watching this thread with some amount of amusement, as > have other OpenBSD developers. > > Yes, please back it out. I would rather have OpenBSD remain the most secure > version of UNIX that money can't buy. > The THING about OpenBSD security is pretty much unsubstantiated. I think that it is kind of funny (odd)... Very few outside of OpenBSD have been provided with any kind of digest as to the security fixes... Sounds like marketing claims to me!!! Additionally, that "fix" was simply the wrong thing to do, and there are better ways to deal with the problem. If the zeroing the buffer in db was typical of the ways that others are "fixing" security, well... Sad... :-(. John dyson@FreeBSD.org -- FreeBSD with a heart... We offer to help... From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 23:34:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA21576 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 23:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.theos.com (zeus.theos.com [199.185.137.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA21550; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 23:34:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCALHOST.theos.com (LOCALHOST.theos.com [127.0.0.1]) by zeus.theos.com (8.8.Beta.2/8.8.Beta.1) with SMTP id AAA29148; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:34:23 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199610190634.AAA29148@zeus.theos.com> X-Authentication-Warning: zeus.theos.com: LOCALHOST.theos.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: dyson@freebsd.org cc: downsj@teeny.org (Jason Downs), ache@nagual.ru, dg@root.com, gritton@byu.edu, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@netbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:26:31 CDT." <199610190626.BAA02729@dyson.iquest.net> Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:34:14 -0600 From: Theo de Raadt Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Ah, yes. I've been watching this thread with some amount of amusement, as > > have other OpenBSD developers. > > > > Yes, please back it out. I would rather have OpenBSD remain the most secure > > version of UNIX that money can't buy. > > > > The THING about OpenBSD security is pretty much unsubstantiated. I think > that it is kind of funny (odd)... Very few outside of OpenBSD have been > provided with any kind of digest as to the security fixes... Sounds like > marketing claims to me!!! > > Additionally, that "fix" was simply the wrong thing to do, and there are > better ways to deal with the problem. If the zeroing the buffer in db > was typical of the ways that others are "fixing" security, well... Sad... :-(. Ah John, ever eager to continue a flame war aren't you. In fact, I think a lot of you need to do a bit more homework and check a few more programs in the source tree to see if you guys have caught all the cases. Quite frankly the coredump story is not over, and there's a few other things you should really think of. But you people are so ready and eager to flame, so you are on your own. You'll see nothing more about this from me, here. See you guys in bugtraq, if any place at all. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 23:50:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA23059 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 23:50:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panda.hilink.com.au (panda.hilink.com.au [203.2.144.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA23035 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 23:50:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from danny@localhost) by panda.hilink.com.au (8.7.6/8.7.3) id QAA00766; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 16:49:32 +1000 (EST) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 16:49:30 +1000 (EST) From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" To: Julian Elischer cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hi mommy! In-Reply-To: <3267CF5A.64880EEB@whistle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, Julian Elischer wrote: > how this got to hackers We'' probably never find out, > but I'm sure there's a good story there somewhere.. > > Cheryl A. Leeds wrote: (to FreeBSD-hackers) > > Danny where are you and why haven't you written me. Write me back and give me > > your address and phone number. > > ok, who volunteers to be danny this time? Not me. Danny From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Oct 18 23:50:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA23117 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 23:50:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net ([198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA23106; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 23:50:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA02780; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:50:02 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199610190650.BAA02780@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c To: deraadt@theos.com (Theo de Raadt) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:50:02 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@freebsd.org, downsj@teeny.org, ache@nagual.ru, dg@root.com, gritton@byu.edu, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@netbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610190634.AAA29148@zeus.theos.com> from "Theo de Raadt" at Oct 19, 96 00:34:14 am Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > Ah, yes. I've been watching this thread with some amount of amusement, as > > > have other OpenBSD developers. > > > > > > Yes, please back it out. I would rather have OpenBSD remain the most secure > > > version of UNIX that money can't buy. > > > > > > > The THING about OpenBSD security is pretty much unsubstantiated. I think > > that it is kind of funny (odd)... Very few outside of OpenBSD have been > > provided with any kind of digest as to the security fixes... Sounds like > > marketing claims to me!!! > > > > Additionally, that "fix" was simply the wrong thing to do, and there are > > better ways to deal with the problem. If the zeroing the buffer in db > > was typical of the ways that others are "fixing" security, well... Sad... :-(. > > Ah John, ever eager to continue a flame war aren't you. > Please refer to the message that I commented on... I am NOT flaming, simply stating an outsiders view of the unsubstantiated OpenBSD position. BTW, what flame war? Why are you bringing flamage up? John dyson@freebsd.org -- BSD with a heart, we offer to help. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 00:02:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA24263 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:02:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (disn3.cybercity.dk [194.16.57.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA24230; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:01:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA09493; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 09:01:32 +0200 (MET DST) To: dyson@freebsd.org cc: downsj@teeny.org (Jason Downs), ache@nagual.ru, dg@Root.COM, gritton@byu.edu, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@netbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:26:31 CDT." <199610190626.BAA02729@dyson.iquest.net> Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 09:01:32 +0200 Message-ID: <9491.845708492@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199610190626.BAA02729@dyson.iquest.net>, "John S. Dyson" writes: >> >> Ah, yes. I've been watching this thread with some amount of amusement, as >> have other OpenBSD developers. >> >> Yes, please back it out. I would rather have OpenBSD remain the most secure >> version of UNIX that money can't buy. >> > >Additionally, that "fix" was simply the wrong thing to do, and there are >better ways to deal with the problem. If the zeroing the buffer in db >was typical of the ways that others are "fixing" security, well... Sad... :-( >. "Have foot, will shoot" was what I read it as :-) -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 00:04:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA24473 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (disn3.cybercity.dk [194.16.57.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA24440; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:03:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA09519; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 09:04:02 +0200 (MET DST) To: dyson@freebsd.org cc: deraadt@theos.com (Theo de Raadt), downsj@teeny.org, ache@nagual.ru, dg@Root.COM, gritton@byu.edu, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@netbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:50:02 CDT." <199610190650.BAA02780@dyson.iquest.net> Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 09:04:01 +0200 Message-ID: <9517.845708641@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199610190650.BAA02780@dyson.iquest.net>, "John S. Dyson" writes: >> > Additionally, that "fix" was simply the wrong thing to do, and there are >> > better ways to deal with the problem. If the zeroing the buffer in db >> > was typical of the ways that others are "fixing" security, well... Sad... > :-(. >> >> Ah John, ever eager to continue a flame war aren't you. >> >Please refer to the message that I commented on... I am NOT flaming, >simply stating an outsiders view of the unsubstantiated OpenBSD position. >BTW, what flame war? Why are you bringing flamage up? > Because obviously Theo is Very Proud of his fix :-) -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 00:08:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA24655 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:08:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.theos.com (zeus.theos.com [199.185.137.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA24627; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:07:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCALHOST.theos.com (LOCALHOST.theos.com [127.0.0.1]) by zeus.theos.com (8.8.Beta.2/8.8.Beta.1) with SMTP id BAA29373; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:07:51 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199610190707.BAA29373@zeus.theos.com> X-Authentication-Warning: zeus.theos.com: LOCALHOST.theos.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: dyson@freebsd.org, deraadt@theos.com (Theo de Raadt), downsj@teeny.org, ache@nagual.ru, dg@root.com, gritton@byu.edu, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@netbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 19 Oct 1996 09:04:01 +0200." <9517.845708641@critter.tfs.com> Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:06:18 -0600 From: Theo de Raadt Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > In message <199610190650.BAA02780@dyson.iquest.net>, "John S. Dyson" writes: > >> > Additionally, that "fix" was simply the wrong thing to do, and there are > >> > better ways to deal with the problem. If the zeroing the buffer in db > >> > was typical of the ways that others are "fixing" security, well... Sad... > > :-(. > >> > >> Ah John, ever eager to continue a flame war aren't you. > >> > >Please refer to the message that I commented on... I am NOT flaming, > >simply stating an outsiders view of the unsubstantiated OpenBSD position. > >BTW, what flame war? Why are you bringing flamage up? > > > > Because obviously Theo is Very Proud of his fix :-) It was not my fix. However, it is correct. Perhaps you will spot the other similar problems before you ship your next release. You and John are doing great things for inter-camp relations. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 00:08:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA24687 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:08:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA24678 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id AAA00388; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:06:56 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610190706.AAA00388@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: fix for symlinks in /tmp (fwd) FYI To: Andrew.Tridgell@anu.edu.au Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:06:56 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, julian@whistle.com, Guido.vanRooij@nl.cis.philips.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <96Oct19.133056+1000est.65234-172+1149@arvidsjaur.anu.edu.au> from "Andrew Tridgell" at Oct 19, 96 01:30:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > The historical BSD behavior is group inheritance, actually, totally > > unrelated to the behaviour needed for the bug (I think). > > Hmmm, I thought group inheritance was controlled by the setgid bit on > directories? No. > Does the t bit really affect group inheritance in BSD? No. The historical behaviour is unaffected. > I'll have to dig out my NetBSD kernel sources soon :-) NetBSD is now 4.4 based, so it's symlinks live in it's directories as well. You'd have to go to ftp://gatekeeper.dec.com to find the Net/2 code to find a BSD that didn't behave as has been described (ie: used files instead of directory entries for the links). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 00:19:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA25662 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:19:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net ([198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA25653; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:19:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id CAA02882; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 02:19:07 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199610190719.CAA02882@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c To: deraadt@theos.com (Theo de Raadt) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 02:19:07 -0500 (EST) Cc: phk@critter.tfs.com, dyson@freebsd.org, deraadt@theos.com, downsj@teeny.org, ache@nagual.ru, dg@root.com, gritton@byu.edu, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@netbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610190707.BAA29373@zeus.theos.com> from "Theo de Raadt" at Oct 19, 96 01:06:18 am Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > You and John are doing great things for inter-camp relations. > Actually, I am still looking for substantiation on the claims of improved security, like diffs and comments. Maybe some pointers and help. Per some requests that you have made, please show where I haven't tried to help ("other camps, like you like to put it") with VM problems. I would like more reciprocal treatment including help with "alleged" security holes. Thanks for your help!!! John dyson@FreeBSD.org -- BSD with a heart, we offer to help. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 00:19:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA25733 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:19:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (disn1.cybercity.dk [194.16.57.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA25701; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:19:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA09571; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 09:19:00 +0200 (MET DST) To: Theo de Raadt cc: dyson@freebsd.org, downsj@teeny.org, ache@nagual.ru, dg@root.com, gritton@byu.edu, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@netbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:06:18 MDT." <199610190707.BAA29373@zeus.theos.com> Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 09:19:00 +0200 Message-ID: <9569.845709540@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199610190707.BAA29373@zeus.theos.com>, Theo de Raadt writes: > >You and John are doing great things for inter-camp relations. > Nobody here even thought of this as being "inter-camp", even after some random OpenBSD weenie couldn't resist to flout his ignorance in public. Theo, go take your medication or whatever it is that have kept your ego in a manageable size recently. Your childish proudness of having "fixed" a security problem does not at all match you supposed and marketed "responsibility" about security issues. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 00:21:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA25895 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:21:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.theos.com (zeus.theos.com [199.185.137.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA25885; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:21:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCALHOST.theos.com (LOCALHOST.theos.com [127.0.0.1]) by zeus.theos.com (8.8.Beta.2/8.8.Beta.1) with SMTP id BAA29499; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:20:59 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199610190720.BAA29499@zeus.theos.com> X-Authentication-Warning: zeus.theos.com: LOCALHOST.theos.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: Theo de Raadt , dyson@freebsd.org, downsj@teeny.org, ache@nagual.ru, dg@root.com, gritton@byu.edu, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@netbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 19 Oct 1996 09:19:00 +0200." <9569.845709540@critter.tfs.com> Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:20:55 -0600 From: Theo de Raadt Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Theo, go take your medication or whatever it is that have kept your > ego in a manageable size recently. Your childish proudness of having > "fixed" a security problem does not at all match you supposed and > marketed "responsibility" about security issues. Oooohhh... Man, that smarts. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 00:24:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA26247 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:24:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dog.farm.org (dog.farm.org [207.111.140.47]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA26239 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:24:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dk@localhost) by dog.farm.org (8.7.5/dk#3) id AAA18425; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:25:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:25:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Dmitry Kohmanyuk Message-Id: <199610190725.AAA18425@dog.farm.org> To: Andrew.Tridgell@anu.edu.au Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: fix for symlinks in /tmp (fwd) FYI Newsgroups: cs-monolit.gated.lists.freebsd.hackers Organization: FARM Computing Association Reply-To: dk+@ua.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <96Oct19.133056+1000est.65234-172+1149@arvidsjaur.anu.edu.au> you wrote: > sure, but does it mandate that the rules for when a user can follow a > symlink? That doesn't sound like a POSIX thing to me, more of a > "tradition" thing. I could easily be wrong :-) hmm, I wonder how `symlinks work all the time but' idea is POSIX-compatible ;-) > > The historical BSD behavior is group inheritance, actually, totally > > unrelated to the behaviour needed for the bug (I think). > Hmmm, I thought group inheritance was controlled by the setgid bit on > directories? in 4.4BSD, it's not - it's always this way. It's SYSV-ish idea (which Linux has adopted) to use setgid dirs for `BSD directory semantics. (Although on Linux you can make all your directories this way by using some mount flags for ext2fs (I always did that on all Linux hosts I administered.) > Does the t bit really affect group inheritance in BSD? no, the t bit only means `it if isn't yours, you can't delete it', both in SYSV and 4.4BSD. -- "C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot, C++ makes it harder, but when you do, it blows away your whole leg" -- Bjarne Stroustrup From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 00:46:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA27816 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:46:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pica.opsycon.se (dialup112-5-8.swipnet.se [130.244.112.108]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA27805; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:46:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pica (pica [192.120.76.100]) by pica.opsycon.se (8.7.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA02611; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 09:42:31 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 09:42:31 +0200 (MET DST) From: Per Fogelstrom & Reply-To: Per Fogelstrom & Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c To: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: dyson@freebsd.org, Theo de Raadt , downsj@teeny.org, ache@nagual.ru, dg@root.com, gritton@byu.edu, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@netbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, pefo@pica.opsycon.se In-Reply-To: <9517.845708641@critter.tfs.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > In message <199610190650.BAA02780@dyson.iquest.net>, "John S. Dyson" > writes: >> > Additionally, that "fix" was simply the wrong thing to do, > and there are >> > better ways to deal with the problem. If the zeroing the > buffer in db >> > was typical of the ways that others are "fixing" security, > well... Sad... > :-(. > >> > >> Ah John, ever eager to continue a flame war aren't you. > >> > >Please refer to the message that I commented on... I am NOT flaming, > >simply stating an outsiders view of the unsubstantiated OpenBSD position. > >BTW, what flame war? Why are you bringing flamage up? > > > > Because obviously Theo is Very Proud of his fix :-) > Geezz, couldn't keep away from the keyboard ehh? Grow up..... From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 00:47:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA27920 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:47:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from threadway.teeny.org (threadway.teeny.org [205.231.244.157]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA27898; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:46:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.teeny.org [127.0.0.1]) by threadway.teeny.org (8.7.6/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA14242; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610190746.AAA14242@threadway.teeny.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: Theo de Raadt , dyson@freebsd.org, ache@nagual.ru, dg@root.com, gritton@byu.edu, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@netbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 19 Oct 1996 09:19:00 +0200." <9569.845709540@critter.tfs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:46:39 -0700 From: Jason Downs Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <9569.845709540@critter.tfs.com>, Poul-Henning Kamp writes: >In message <199610190707.BAA29373@zeus.theos.com>, Theo de Raadt writes: >> >>You and John are doing great things for inter-camp relations. >> > >Nobody here even thought of this as being "inter-camp", even after >some random OpenBSD weenie couldn't resist to flout his ignorance >in public. > >Theo, go take your medication or whatever it is that have kept your >ego in a manageable size recently. Your childish proudness of having >"fixed" a security problem does not at all match you supposed and >marketed "responsibility" about security issues. Wow, I'm so utterly impressed with the maturity level of the FreeBSD core. It's so impressive it's beyond description. -- Jason Downs (503) 256-8535 -/- (503) 952-3749 downsj@teeny.org --> teeny.org: Free Software for a Free Internet <-- http://www.teeny.org/ OpenBSD: The BSD with a soul. http://www.openbsd.org/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 01:13:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA00950 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:13:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net ([198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA00906 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:12:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA03042; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 03:12:43 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199610190812.DAA03042@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c To: downsj@teeny.org (Jason Downs) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 03:12:42 -0500 (EST) Cc: misc@openbsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610190746.AAA14242@threadway.teeny.org> from "Jason Downs" at Oct 19, 96 00:46:39 am Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Wow, I'm so utterly impressed with the maturity level of the FreeBSD core. > > It's so impressive it's beyond description. > Please substantiate your claims, that is most of what I am asking. Claims made on other peoples forums from "other camps" as OpenBSD calls it, should really be substantiated to be minimally polite. The db fix was bogus, it is silly to fix the problem that way, and is only an obvious (sad, pathetic) band-aid (tm). I would suggest that kind of change ONLY if there was NO other solution. The db fix smells of hack... Might be best to post questionable OpenBSD propaganda to the OpenBSD mailing list. Trolls are getting to be passe, and very old. Additionally, I do believe that your troll was impolite. You got exactly the response from me that you deserved. The situation was: You made an unsolicited and unsubstantiated claim... Period... The claim should also include enough material to allow the non-intellectually challenged to review and judge it carefully. My offer still stands to help people with VM problems, and I only ask for reciprocal behavior... Sigh... John dyson@FreeBSD.org -- BSD with a heart, we offer to help. PS: it is very rude to keep on tacking on more people and mailing lists!!! I have removed NetBSD -- you aren't their problem :-). After this, this discussion should degrade to chat@freebsd.org... This has very little technical content -- just like the original, unsubstantiated claim. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 01:24:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA02392 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:24:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from threadway.teeny.org (threadway.teeny.org [205.231.244.157]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA02363; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:24:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.teeny.org [127.0.0.1]) by threadway.teeny.org (8.7.6/8.6.12) with ESMTP id BAA14592; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610190824.BAA14592@threadway.teeny.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: dyson@freebsd.org cc: misc@openbsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 19 Oct 1996 03:12:42 CDT." <199610190812.DAA03042@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:24:43 -0700 From: Jason Downs Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199610190812.DAA03042@dyson.iquest.net>, "John S. Dyson" writes: >My offer still stands to help people with VM problems, and I only ask for >reciprocal behavior... Sigh... Yeah, FreeBSD core certainly fosters an environment of co-operation by making public personal attacks. -- Jason Downs (503) 256-8535 -/- (503) 952-3749 downsj@teeny.org --> teeny.org: Free Software for a Free Internet <-- http://www.teeny.org/ OpenBSD: The BSD with a soul. http://www.openbsd.org/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 01:28:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA02788 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:28:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net ([198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA02731; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:27:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA03112; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 03:27:43 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199610190827.DAA03112@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c To: downsj@teeny.org (Jason Downs) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 03:27:43 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@freebsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610190824.BAA14592@threadway.teeny.org> from "Jason Downs" at Oct 19, 96 01:24:43 am Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > In message <199610190812.DAA03042@dyson.iquest.net>, > "John S. Dyson" writes: > >My offer still stands to help people with VM problems, and I only ask for > >reciprocal behavior... Sigh... > > Yeah, FreeBSD core certainly fosters an environment of co-operation by > making public personal attacks. > Well, the request for details on the original unsubstantiated statement stands. Your original comment was rude, uninformative, and not necessary. Troll for flames, you get flames!!! I have been careful to only state the facts, and ask for further information. My request still stands. John dyson@FreeBSD.org -- BSD with heart, we offer to help. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 01:34:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA03625 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.theos.com (zeus.theos.com [199.185.137.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA03570; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:34:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCALHOST.theos.com (LOCALHOST.theos.com [127.0.0.1]) by zeus.theos.com (8.8.Beta.2/8.8.Beta.1) with SMTP id CAA29984; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 02:33:58 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199610190833.CAA29984@zeus.theos.com> X-Authentication-Warning: zeus.theos.com: LOCALHOST.theos.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: dyson@freebsd.org cc: deraadt@theos.com (Theo de Raadt), misc@openbsd.org cc: hackers@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 19 Oct 1996 03:17:01 CDT." <199610190817.DAA03053@dyson.iquest.net> Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 02:33:57 -0600 From: Theo de Raadt Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This was posted by John Dyson, as yet another flame, to the OpenBSD lists. But if FreeBSD people are going to behave impolitely then it is only fair and right for FreeBSD users to see how FreeBSD developers are pissing off others who might at some point have helped them (We helped, we gave you a fix. The kern_sig.c:coredump() fix is NOT enough). You are not helping FreeBSD users by angering the OpenBSD community thus. -------------------- > Actually, the OpenBSD team started it, please leave the FreeBSD > lists alone unless you have something to offer... That is incorrect, John. Jason's post was in partly in humour. And obviously you were in humour too now that you know 1 of the problems is NFS, and you suggest shutting NFS down. > BTW, I sure am doing good things, I have still offered to help you with > your broken VM system (that really doesn't work very well.) I sure am doing good things too. But I'm not helping pkh. > Look at the above statement, and show me how it is different from > Jason's original statement? Oh, that's right, I offer to help > at least a little. OpenBSD is not reciprocating... Sad... I'm not helping pkh. > OpenBSD -- all take and no give!!! New motto!!! Baloney. We gave you a fix, you are now deciding to drop it, that is ok. But not before your team is jumping up and down a bit and calling us losers for suggesting or making the change. Sorry John, you need to check a bit more carefully what happened. Careful attention makes for good programmers, and you are a good programmer, so go apply a bit of that skill to your mailbox. You will see that you were being extremely challenging in your mail; you were basically BEGGING for a flame war. I wish you good luck with turning NFS off to save yourself from your little coredump problem.. But there are other problems with this approach too. Security is a very subtle business, one which one does not benchmark except perhaps by things like "Oh, another sendmail bug, well golly gee, we have that fixed already in another way and we are not vulnerable". (Like, you really think the only gecos overflow was in sendmail?) Ok, I am stopping giving you fixes and reports immediately. You have been making personal attacks, and I hereby promise to not give you any fixes for at least the next 2 months. The accusatory tone is way out of line, I've had it; you suck. End of story. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 01:47:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA04747 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:47:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA04741 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:47:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.7.6/8.6.5) with SMTP id BAA17366; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:48:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610190848.BAA17366@root.com> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.root.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Jason Downs cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:24:43 PDT." <199610190824.BAA14592@threadway.teeny.org> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:48:40 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >In message <199610190812.DAA03042@dyson.iquest.net>, > "John S. Dyson" writes: >>My offer still stands to help people with VM problems, and I only ask for >>reciprocal behavior... Sigh... > >Yeah, FreeBSD core certainly fosters an environment of co-operation by >making public personal attacks. Personal attacks are never appropriate for our lists; whether by you, Theo, FreeBSD core members, or anyone else. The lists exist for the discussion of technical subjects related to FreeBSD. If you would like to discuss why you think the proposed security fix is correct and complete, then by all means please do. Otherwise your other comments aren't welcome here and should be either taken private or kept to yourself. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 01:48:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA04897 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:48:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net ([198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA04888 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:48:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id DAA03178; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 03:48:39 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199610190848.DAA03178@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c To: deraadt@theos.com (Theo de Raadt) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 03:48:39 -0500 (EST) Cc: misc@openbsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610190833.CAA29984@zeus.theos.com> from "Theo de Raadt" at Oct 19, 96 02:33:57 am Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I have pruned the mailing lists again... This was a thread that had a list of over 10 groups/people, and simply needed to be pruned... Sorry for my proper ettiquite. Also, Theo, you have posted to more than one FreeBSD mailing list... That is generally *BAD* ettiquite. Please look at how many times the same message has appeared if you subscribe to multiple groups. > > This was posted by John Dyson, as yet another flame, to the OpenBSD > lists. But if FreeBSD people are going to behave impolitely then it > is only fair and right for FreeBSD users to see how FreeBSD developers > are pissing off others who might at some point have helped them (We > helped, we gave you a fix. The kern_sig.c:coredump() fix is NOT > enough). You are not helping FreeBSD users by angering the OpenBSD > community thus. > Actually, I pruned the lists (as appropriate), the list was very very long... You were welcome to repost the message since you think that it was valuable to the FreeBSD team, however it is not germaine. > > You will > see that you were being extremely challenging in your mail; you were > basically BEGGING for a flame war. > Nope, only asking for intellectual honesty... I guess I was asking for too much. > > Ok, I am stopping giving you fixes and reports immediately. You have > been making personal attacks, and I hereby promise to not give you any > fixes for at least the next 2 months. The accusatory tone is way out > of line, I've had it; you suck. > This is the first flamage that I have seen... This is really sad Theo... I will still help the OpenBSD team with VM problems... As I have said in private email, I won't be turned to the dark-side, Emperor!!! (Get a bad attitude like you :-).) Your negative attitude against me and others won't affect my decision making process at all... It looks like to me: OpenBSD -- all take and no give... Theo: Angry child... Bad Theo, Bad... Bad... John dyson@freebsd.org -- BSD with a heart, we offer to help. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 01:56:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA05477 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:56:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.theos.com (zeus.theos.com [199.185.137.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA05465; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:56:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCALHOST.theos.com (LOCALHOST.theos.com [127.0.0.1]) by zeus.theos.com (8.8.Beta.2/8.8.Beta.1) with SMTP id CAA00291; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 02:56:03 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199610190856.CAA00291@zeus.theos.com> X-Authentication-Warning: zeus.theos.com: LOCALHOST.theos.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: dyson@freebsd.org cc: deraadt@theos.com (Theo de Raadt), misc@openbsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 19 Oct 1996 03:48:39 CDT." <199610190848.DAA03178@dyson.iquest.net> Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 02:56:02 -0600 From: Theo de Raadt Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > This was a thread that had a list of over 10 groups/people, and > simply needed to be pruned... Sorry for my proper ettiquite. You pruned too much. You pruned the list where your comments would look bad. > > You will > > see that you were being extremely challenging in your mail; you were > > basically BEGGING for a flame war. > > > Nope, only asking for intellectual honesty... I guess I was asking > for too much. No, that is not correct. Your comments denigrated us for approaching security in this fashion. Unforunately the clearing of that buffer inside libc/db, at endpwent() time, is the only way you can reliably solve the problem in all cases. Unfortunately, about 30 pieces of mail went over the freebsd-security mailing list without *anyone* asking us if we had found something else which made it more of an issue. Noone asked us why we were not backing the change out. We know security, really, we do. In fact there are a couple of other holes, of which I have told you one. All things accounted for, the change is correct. Do your homework, search for other db useages in the source tree, consider what I told you, and consider a few other non-setuid programs. > > Ok, I am stopping giving you fixes and reports immediately. You have > > been making personal attacks, and I hereby promise to not give you any > > fixes for at least the next 2 months. The accusatory tone is way out > > of line, I've had it; you suck. > > > This is the first flamage that I have seen... That's either a lie, John or you are BLIND. pkh flamed me personally. You are BLIND. > > This is really sad > Theo... I will still help the OpenBSD team with VM problems... Thank you. But I will not help FreeBSD with security problems unless something drastic happens. > It looks like to me: OpenBSD -- all take and no give... That's garbage. You just expected us to behave nice after you called our change stupid without asking us if we'd found some other flaws. > Theo: Angry child... Bad Theo, Bad... Bad... And blind John. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 02:02:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA06103 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 02:02:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from casparc.ppp.net (casparc.ppp.net [194.64.12.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA06094 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 02:02:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ernie by casparc.ppp.net with uucp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0vEXIA-000I6EC; Sat, 19 Oct 96 10:02 MET Received: by ernie.kts.org (Smail3.1.29.1 #5) id m0vEWx1-00000GC; Sat, 19 Oct 96 10:40 MET DST Message-Id: From: hm@kts.org (Hellmuth Michaelis) Subject: disk partition editor 0.3 (location) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 10:40:11 +0200 (MET DST) Organization: Kitchen Table Systems Reply-To: hm@kts.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Several people could not locate it, it is available at ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/incoming/dpe-0.3.tar.gz Also i mail this to hackers only because it is definitely pre-alpha and not ready for Joe User. hellmuth -- Hellmuth Michaelis hm@kts.org Hamburg, Europe (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nstall BSD ? From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 02:14:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA07467 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 02:14:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net ([198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA07441; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 02:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id EAA03251; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 04:13:43 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199610190913.EAA03251@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c To: deraadt@theos.com (Theo de Raadt) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 04:13:43 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@freebsd.org, deraadt@theos.com, misc@openbsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610190856.CAA00291@zeus.theos.com> from "Theo de Raadt" at Oct 19, 96 02:56:02 am Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > This was a thread that had a list of over 10 groups/people, and > > simply needed to be pruned... Sorry for my proper ettiquite. > > You pruned too much. You pruned the list where your comments would > look bad. > Sorry, I pruned the list where the discussion isn't important. Any further follow-ups will have FreeBSD lists pruned again. BTW, I really didn't care if anyone saw the messages :-). You are assuming alot. Do you actually think that with your history that I would write anything private to you that you would keep it so??? :-)... > > Nope, only asking for intellectual honesty... I guess I was asking > > for too much. > > No, that is not correct. Your comments denigrated us for approaching > security in this fashion. Unforunately the clearing of that buffer > inside libc/db, at endpwent() time, is the only way you can reliably > solve the problem in all cases. > Nope, my interest is in explaination of your security fixes and substantiation of such claims. > > That's either a lie, John or you are BLIND. pkh flamed me personally. > You are BLIND. > Sorry, I don't take things personally (anymore)... > > > > This is really sad > > Theo... I will still help the OpenBSD team with VM problems... > > Thank you. But I will not help FreeBSD with security problems unless > something drastic happens. > Refer to my statement below. > > > It looks like to me: OpenBSD -- all take and no give... > > That's garbage. You just expected us to behave nice after you called > our change stupid without asking us if we'd found some other flaws. > You are substantiating my claim by saying that you won't help FreeBSD... Sorry, your attitude is clear. I am still offering to help OpenBSD with their (non-robust, susceptable to denial of service) VM system, but I do see that it isn't reciprocal. Sad... John dyson@FreeBSD.org -- BSD with a heart, we offer to help. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 03:26:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA13407 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 03:26:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA13387; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 03:26:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA02853; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 03:25:52 -0700 (PDT) To: Jason Downs cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Theo de Raadt , dyson@freebsd.org, ache@nagual.ru, dg@Root.COM, gritton@byu.edu, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-userlevel@netbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:46:39 PDT." <199610190746.AAA14242@threadway.teeny.org> Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 03:25:52 -0700 Message-ID: <2851.845720752@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Wow, I'm so utterly impressed with the maturity level of the FreeBSD core. > > It's so impressive it's beyond description. Yes, like this thread. We didn't ask for it and we certainly don't want it to continue. I might note that Jason's original comment which started all of this could not have been written with a desire to cause any *positive* effect, and hence the resultant flammage should certainly come as no surprise to him - one cannot expect healthy crops to sprout from poisoned seed. I'd also hoped my little parody would inject some much needed humor into the situation *before* a flame war erupted, but that clearly did not work out as hoped. Since everyone seems so insistent on acting like small children, I suppose the only reasonable solution lies in treating their actions accordingly. It's time for everyone to "go to their rooms" at this point until they're ready to come out and play nice. That means that the OpenBSD people will stay *off* the FreeBSD lists, by active filtering should the honor system prove insufficient, and the FreeBSD people will do the same on the OpenBSD lists. Censorship is highly undesirable, but these kinds of ad-hominem attacks are even less so as they waste valuable developer time and energy in pointless bickering. The NetBSD folks, who didn't even ask to be involved in this discussion, will be similarly dropped from FreeBSD-side correspondence and I will leave the OpenBSD->NetBSD mail issue to them since it's clearly something I cannot control. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 05:18:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA18794 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 05:18:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hps.sso.wdl.lmco.com (hps.sso.wdl.lmco.com [158.186.22.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA18784 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 05:18:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miles.sso.wdl.lmco.com by hps.sso.wdl.lmco.com (4.1/SSO-4.01-LMCO) id AA10760; Sat, 19 Oct 96 08:17:04 EDT Received: by miles.sso.wdl.lmco.com (4.1/SSO-SUN-2.04) id AA14931; Sat, 19 Oct 96 08:15:02 EDT Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 08:15:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Toren X-Sender: rpt@miles To: hackers Subject: Re: C++ question In-Reply-To: <199610172119.PAA20617@rocky.mt.sri.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Here is another anomoly between g++ and Sun C++ 4.1 Here is one from the obscure pages of the ARM (I hope). What action is to be taken when an object is passed by value to a function that uses 'varargs'. Is the copy ctor called? is the dtor also supposed to be called? Who did it correctly ?? The following situation was noticed due to a type (rather common) when attempting to print the address of an object, and the '&' was left off. Unfortunately, the real object was a reference counted pointer. I noticed that the Sun 4.1 C++ compiler used the supplied copy ctor, but never called the dtor. This left the reference count one too high. Some experimenting with G++ and an old CenterLine compiler showed that both of these made copies in the stack without calling the copy ctor (probably just the compilers byte-wise copy) and then passed the adress rather than the object itself. Sun C++ 4.1 gave no warnings (even with +w). CenterLine gave no warnings, but did not call the user copy ctor. G++ gave a warning (missingDtor.C:39: warning: cannot pass objects of type `Apple' through `...' G++ output looks like: copyCtorbug - called with 1 args empty ctor - refCount=1 The real address of myfruit is 0xefbfd6b4 Addr of myfruit is 0xefbfd6ac refCount = 1 dtor - refCount=0 copyCtorbug - called with 2 args empty ctor - refCount=1 The real address of myfruit is 0xefbfd6ac Addr of myfruit is 0xefbfd6ac refCount = 1 dtor - refCount=0 CenterLine gave essentialy the same result. Sun compiler gave: copyCtorbug - called with 1 args empty ctor - refCount=1 The real address of myfruit is 0xeffff1e0 copy ctor - refCount = 2 // !!!!!!!!!! Addr of myfruit is 0xeffff1d8 refCount = 2 dtor - refCount=1 // wrong ??? copyCtorbug - called with 2 args empty ctor - refCount=1 The real address of myfruit is 0xeffff1d8 Addr of myfruit is 0xeffff1d8 refCount = 1 dtor - refCount=0 // // test missing dtor with call to vararg // #include int refCount = 0; class Apple { int somevalue; public: Apple ( ):somevalue(100) { refCount ++; printf("empty ctor - refCount=%d\n",refCount); } Apple(const Apple& rs) { refCount++; printf("copy ctor - refCount=%d\n",refCount); somevalue = rs.somevalue; } ~Apple ( ) { refCount--; printf("dtor - refCount=%d\n",refCount); } }; main (int argc, char **argv ) { printf("\n\n\ncopyCtorbug - called with %d args\n",argc); Apple myfruit; Apple *mfp; mfp = &myfruit; printf("The real address of myfruit is %#x\n",mfp); if (argc==1) { printf("Addr of myfruit is %#x\n", myfruit); }else { printf("Addr of myfruit is %#x\n", &myfruit); } printf("refCount = %d\n",refCount); return 0; } ==================================================== Rip Toren | The bad news is that C++ is not an object-oriented | rpt@sso.wdl.lmco.com | programming language. .... The good news is that | | C++ supports object-oriented programming. | | C++ Programming & Fundamental Concepts | | by Anderson & Heinze | ==================================================== From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 06:07:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA20282 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 06:07:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sovcom.kiae.su (sovcom.kiae.su [193.125.152.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA20277 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 06:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sovcom.kiae.su id AA28344 (5.65.kiae-1 ); Sat, 19 Oct 1996 16:05:40 +0300 Received: by sovcom.KIAE.su (UUMAIL/2.0); Sat, 19 Oct 96 16:05:40 +0300 Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.ru (8.7.6/8.7.3) id QAA00669; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 16:57:04 +0400 (MSD) Message-Id: <199610191257.QAA00669@nagual.ru> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c In-Reply-To: <199610190005.SAA28067@zeus.theos.com> from "Theo de Raadt" at "Oct 18, 96 06:05:09 pm" To: deraadt@theos.com (Theo de Raadt) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 16:57:04 +0400 (MSD) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org From: "=?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?=" (Andrey A. Chernov) Organization: self X-Class: Fast X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > well, that would be foolish. there are other issues which noone > outside of openbsd has thought of yet. we've found about 3 other > related holes, and i can definately say you should not back that > change out. It seems that you not follow this discussion well, so I repeat essential points for you: 1) Application can store its secure data ANYWHERE, db, stack, etc. So, cover only one area gains nothing. 2) Any attempts to automatically erase secure data ANYWHERE leads to performance degradation for applications which not want it. 3) Dropping core isn't a point, once SUID programs must not drop non-superuser readable cores. 4) Applications/functions which want to erase its secure data in the memory (if it care about physical memory browsing) must do it by yourself. 5) Getpw*() family can be treated as example of 4), so it can do it, but definitely NOT generic db close. 6) So, some erasing function must be added to generic db interface which allows endpwent() to erase its memory when called directly. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ -- Andrey A. Chernov http://www.nagual.ru/~ache/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 06:54:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA21719 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 06:54:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA21714 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 06:54:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id PAA26392; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 15:53:10 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id PAA14339; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 15:53:10 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.6/8.6.9) id PAA03529; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 15:51:12 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610191351.PAA03529@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Conventions/Rules for adding Local ioctls To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 15:51:12 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: rohit@cs.umd.edu (Rohit Dube) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199610182312.TAA04920@seine.cs.umd.edu> from Rohit Dube at "Oct 18, 96 07:12:43 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Rohit Dube wrote: > I was wondering if there are any (FreeBSD/BSD/Unix) rules which specify > the definition of new local ioctls? In other words, how do I add a > 'group' and a 'num' to an ioctl command meant for local consumption, > without running the risk of conflicting with any current or future > code? As long as you don't use one of the groups that are used by the generic tty or socket code, there's not much risk that you will conflict. (Btw., two ioctl cmds with the same group and magic number, but a different argument size and/or direction are still distinct from each other.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 07:06:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA22312 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 07:06:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.225.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA22303 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 07:06:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de [137.226.31.2]) by Campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (RBI-Z-5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA07518 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 15:07:10 +0100 Received: (from kuku@localhost) by gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA09234 for freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 15:12:24 +0100 Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 15:12:24 +0100 From: Christoph Kukulies Message-Id: <199610191412.PAA09234@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: sd0 install still fails Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Scenario: 961014 SNAP P6/200 ASUS P6NP5 NCR 53810 PCI card with NCR BIOS Quantum Atlas 2GB as install disk The system works with the old installed wd0 but I wanted to install 961014 SNAP. After a 2050/64/32 stock install failed with the infamous 'Missing operating system' message (BIOS) I created from a DOS boot diskette a small (1MB) Dos partition and tried another install. This time I got 1010/66/63 suggested in the partition editor. Said A(ll) for FreeBSD and went ahead. Made minimum system. mkfs, devices etc. all worked fine. Rebooted the first time, 'Missing operating system' again. Now I'm really stuck. (BTW, what's odd with the current sysinstall is that once the disk is partitioned you can't get back to the partition editor and I got a warning: "chunk doesn't start on cyl boundary" or something and wanted to go back to the partition editor at that point which was impossible). --Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 09:18:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA20170 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 09:18:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyclone.degnet.baynet.de (root@cyclone.degnet.baynet.de [194.95.214.129]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA20162; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 09:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from neuron (ppp8 [194.95.214.138]) by cyclone.degnet.baynet.de (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA12225; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 18:18:59 +0100 Message-ID: <326919FC.B8A@degnet.baynet.de> Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 17:12:12 +0000 From: Darius Moos Reply-To: moos@degnet.baynet.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD-questions CC: freebsd-hackers Subject: [Q] force mountd to register on specific port ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, is it possible to force mountd to listen on a specific port or to register with portmap on a specific port ? I need this for allowing NFS-mounting for only one machine in an ethernet-segment through a firewall. Thanks in advance for your help Darius Moos. -- email: moos@degnet.baynet.de From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 09:36:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA21525 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 09:36:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA21518; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 09:36:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailbox.mcs.com (Mailbox.mcs.com [192.160.127.87]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.0/8.8.Beta.3) with SMTP id LAA25363; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 11:36:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mailbox.mcs.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.15) id ; Sat, 19 Oct 96 11:36 CDT Received: (from karl@localhost) by Jupiter.Mcs.Net (8.8.Beta.6/8.8.Beta.3) id LAA01276; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 11:35:58 -0500 (CDT) From: Karl Denninger Message-Id: <199610191635.LAA01276@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c To: deraadt@theos.com (Theo de Raadt) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 11:35:58 -0500 (CDT) Cc: phk@critter.tfs.com, deraadt@theos.com, dyson@FreeBSD.org, downsj@teeny.org, ache@nagual.ru, dg@root.com, gritton@byu.edu, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, tech-userlevel@netbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610190720.BAA29499@zeus.theos.com> from "Theo de Raadt" at Oct 19, 96 01:20:55 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackersFrom owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 14:58:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA11410 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 14:58:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA11395; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 14:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hrym.ifi.uio.no (hrym.ifi.uio.no [129.240.94.15]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.11/ifi2.4) id ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 23:57:50 +0200 From: Michael Shuldman Received: (from michaels@localhost) by hrym.ifi.uio.no ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 23:57:49 +0200 Message-Id: <199610192157.19221.hrym.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c To: karl@mcs.net Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 23:57:47 +0000 (BST) Cc: deraadt@theos.com, dyson@freebsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Karl Denninger wrote, > > > > This is really sad > > > Theo... I will still help the OpenBSD team with VM problems... > > Thank you. But I will not help FreeBSD with security problems unless > > something drastic happens. > > > It looks like to me: OpenBSD -- all take and no give... > > That's garbage. You just expected us to behave nice after you called > > our change stupid without asking us if we'd found some other flaws. > On the contrary. You just STATED that you will not help FreeBSD in any way, > shape or form. I think its only appropriate that the receiprocal action > come your direction. "any way, shape or form" ? He did not state any such thing, why don't you read what you quote ? I would get rather pissed myself at a group if a high ranking member of that same group told me to "go back to taking medicine" for no logical reason. Ofcourse, you are only doing your best to throw more fuel on the flames. These personal attacks, ranging from suggestions of taking medicine to crawling back under a rock, are way out of line (and in any case, you probably meant back into the cave). Jason Downs posted a somewhat humorous, but obviously not hard enough not to misunderstand hint, that backing out the change is perhaps not the best thing to do. Jordan K. Hubbard replied in a even more humorous tone (which I atleast had a long laugh from), perhaps trying to beat the more flame-oriented people to the reply, seeing what might happen. (if so, a good attempt it was, I don't know why it failed.) So why did it not (publically) end there ? And how on earth can one think there is anything but a collegial hint in Jason's posting ? If he had evil intentions, he would surely have shut up while FreeBSD backed out the changes. He obviously mailed in order to help FreeBSD, since he felt that FreeBSD was better of with the change. > > > Theo: Angry child... Bad Theo, Bad... Bad... > > And blind John. > Yeah. Right. > > I'm done with this thread Theo. I don't have time for children and temper > tantrums in a professional setting; I have a kid at home to take care of. If you don't want replies, why send mail at all ? It never ceases to amaze me how some people like to make some quick, childish stabs out of the dark, often loaded with personal attacks, and end it with something along the lines of that _they_ are "done", "I'm unsubscribing", "you are in my kill file from now on", etc. Reminds me of the game some kids like to play, ringing the door bell at foreign houses and then running away in hiding. Pathetic. > Consider any commit that I place on FreeBSD from here on out to be > Copyrighted by me and forbidden to show up in your codebase. And yes, I > will put legal notice on them if I have to. > I strongly suggest other developers to do the same with their commits. Well, that does indeed sound very un-childish and professional, Mr. Karl Denninger. Let us all hope that someday, also OpenBSD might aspire to your level of utter proffesionalism. You really make your point in an outstandingly (*outstandingly*) good way, bravo! Best of luck with your kid. -- _ // \X/ -- Michael Shuldman From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 15:27:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA14140 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 15:27:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from friley216.res.iastate.edu (friley216.res.iastate.edu [129.186.78.216]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA14135 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 15:27:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from friley216.res.iastate.edu (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by friley216.res.iastate.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA21310 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 17:26:39 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199610192226.RAA21310@friley216.res.iastate.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Request: package for ddd-2.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 17:26:39 -0500 From: "Chris Csanady" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Could someone please put up a package for ddd-2.0? From what I've heard its a very nice graphical front end to gdb, but it requires motif. ftp://ftp.ips.cs.tu-bs.de/pub/local/softech/ddd/ --Chris Csanady From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 15:52:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA16526 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 15:52:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA16492 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 15:52:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id AAA08262; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 00:52:17 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA24203; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 00:52:17 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.6/8.6.9) id AAA03718; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 00:37:51 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610192237.AAA03718@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: 961014-SNAP probe problem To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 00:37:51 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: obrien@NUXI.cs.ucdavis.edu (David E. O'Brien) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199610192039.NAA14715@relay.nuxi.com> from "David E. O'Brien" at "Oct 19, 96 01:39:53 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As David E. O'Brien wrote: > mcd0: type Mitsumi ???, version info 21 > mcd0: at 0x300-0x303 irq 10 on isa > Any idea how to pin down what caused the false detection? I think the mcd driver is a known offender for false detections. Disable it if you don't have an `mcd' drive. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 15:56:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA16977 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 15:56:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA16561 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 15:53:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id AAA08266; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 00:52:19 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA24207; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 00:52:18 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.6/8.6.9) id AAA03744; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 00:40:33 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199610192240.AAA03744@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Conventions/Rules for adding Local ioctls To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 00:40:33 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: rohit@cs.umd.edu Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199610191917.FAA17149@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from Bruce Evans at "Oct 20, 96 05:17:56 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Bruce Evans wrote: > >As long as you don't use one of the groups that are used by the > >generic tty or socket code, there's not much risk that you will > >conflict. (Btw., two ioctl cmds with the same group and magic number, > >but a different argument size and/or direction are still distinct from > >each other.) > > Ioctls are per-major, so there is no chance of ones for the local major > conflicting with ones for ttys. ...unless your local driver actually _is_ a tty driver. The originator of the question didn't tell us. (I meant the generic tty ioctls, all that TIOxxx stuff.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 16:36:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA19780 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 16:36:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA19769; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 16:36:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA03113; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 16:34:46 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610192334.QAA03113@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c To: karl@Mcs.Net (Karl Denninger) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 16:34:46 -0700 (MST) Cc: deraadt@theos.com, dyson@FreeBSD.org, misc@openbsd.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610191640.LAA03279@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> from "Karl Denninger" at Oct 19, 96 11:40:56 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Thank you. But I will not help FreeBSD with security problems unless > > something drastic happens. > > Consider any commit that I place on FreeBSD from here on out to be > Copyrighted by me and forbidden to show up in your codebase. And yes, I > will put legal notice on them if I have to. > > I strongly suggest other developers to do the same with their commits. This is horribly bad precedent. I strongly encourage all developers in all camps to *not* do this. One would also hope that the people controlling the source tree in *any* BSD camp would refuse to commit any code having such restrictions as coming with too high a price tag. The point of the UCB-style license is "raise the bar" for everyone by establishing a higher baseline for future work. The point of the GPL is to implement a social construct using source code to "pay" people to buy into the construct. It establishes a higher baseline only for work which is done in the context of the social construct. Code carrying the proposed restriction would be *worse* than GPL when measured against the goal of "raising the bar", since it would have much smaller utility than even the GPL code by virtue of the restrictions on the eventual use of the code. GPL, at least, allows anyone to *utilize* the code without restriction, even if they can't *use* it without restriction. Attaching *any* rider to the UCB-style licensed source code voids the value it is intended to have. Such code should *not*, as a matter of policy, find it's way into the source trees of any of the BSD camps. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 16:56:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA21223 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 16:56:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA21218 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 16:56:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA03149; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 16:54:22 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610192354.QAA03149@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c To: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 16:54:22 -0700 (MST) Cc: dnelson@emsphone.com, ache@nagual.ru, deraadt@theos.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199610192038.NAA11524@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> from "Jason Thorpe" at Oct 19, 96 01:38:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > and will you include a runtime flag I can set to disable all of these, > > so I can get my performance back for the 100% of my programs that do > > NOT need all this security? > > Uhh, but you'd still have to pay the cost of checking the flag :-) That point occurred to me as well, but I wasn't going to be the first one to mention it. I liked PHK's suggestion of seeting a flag for the malloc() system such that free()'s cleared memory. It is unfortunately naieve, if my application watermarks total buffer allocation and uses a free list as a mechanism for fast reallocation of a class of object. For applications using this approach, the objects put on the free list but not actually freed will continue to contain potentially sensitive data. For what it's worth, the db fix will fail under similar use. Finally, it's interesting to note that these speed-driven optimizations which open the holes are often the result of attempts by OS and library designers to close holes at the expense of performance. It seems to me that the correct approach is to provide a conditional interface to any caching library system -- whether it be db or stdio or some other interface -- to explicitly dump the cache contents, and then expect the application writers to take note of potential problem situations and generate correct code to deal with them. One could arge that my knowledge that you are running on a Televideo terminal would make you subject to "send screen to host" based attacks (which I will note, I have personally used in system-cracking exercises to obtain "sensitive" exercise target information). Should we then zero the environment, which contains the TERM entry? What about the termcap entry, for which libtermcap.a would count as a caching library system? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 17:08:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA22430 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 17:08:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darling.cs.umd.edu (10862@darling.cs.umd.edu [128.8.128.115]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA22422 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 17:08:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by darling.cs.umd.edu (8.7.6/UMIACS-0.9/04-05-88) id UAA26134; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 20:08:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199610200008.UAA26134@darling.cs.umd.edu> To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Subject: Re: Conventions/Rules for adding Local ioctls In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 20 Oct 1996 00:40:33 +0200." <199610192240.AAA03744@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 20:08:43 -0400 From: Rohit Dube Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 20 Oct 1996 00:40:33 +0200 (MET DST) j@uriah.heep.sax.de writes: =>As Bruce Evans wrote: =>> Ioctls are per-major, so there is no chance of ones for the local major =>> conflicting with ones for ttys. => =>...unless your local driver actually _is_ a tty driver. The =>originator of the question didn't tell us. => =>(I meant the generic tty ioctls, all that TIOxxx stuff.) => Hi, Sorry for not putting this on to my orignal post : I am using Major (Character) device number 20 which is reserved for local use. The pseudo driver (I call it /dev/cntrl0) is not a tty driver. I am structuring it like 'bpf' I use it to control a bunch of other pseudo devices which sit on top of the 'de' ethernet driver. Just like any usual network driver, these pseudo network device drivers do not have any /dev entries. My question applies to both /dev/cntrl0 and to the pseudo network devices. >From what I make of the previous replies '/dev/cntrl0' is ok as it has a unique Major device number which the kernel code switches on while handling ioctls. For the network drivers, I guess I am going to have to find a unique group my eliminating those already used by the net and tty code. I was hoping for a globally maintained file hidden somewhere which listed at least the 'taken' groups. More comments?? --rohit. (rohit@cs.umd.edu) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 17:22:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA23647 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 17:22:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from po2.glue.umd.edu (po2.glue.umd.edu [129.2.128.45]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA23640 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 17:22:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from baud.eng.umd.edu (baud.eng.umd.edu [129.2.98.183]) by po2.glue.umd.edu (8.8.1/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA19722; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 20:22:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by baud.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA09536; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 20:22:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: baud.eng.umd.edu: chuckr owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 20:22:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@baud.eng.umd.edu To: Terry Lambert cc: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, dnelson@emsphone.com, ache@nagual.ru, deraadt@theos.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c In-Reply-To: <199610192354.QAA03149@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > I liked PHK's suggestion of seeting a flag for the malloc() system > such that free()'s cleared memory. It is unfortunately naieve, if > my application watermarks total buffer allocation and uses a free > list as a mechanism for fast reallocation of a class of object. For > applications using this approach, the objects put on the free list > but not actually freed will continue to contain potentially sensitive > data. > > For what it's worth, the db fix will fail under similar use. > > Finally, it's interesting to note that these speed-driven optimizations > which open the holes are often the result of attempts by OS and library > designers to close holes at the expense of performance. > > > It seems to me that the correct approach is to provide a conditional > interface to any caching library system -- whether it be db or stdio > or some other interface -- to explicitly dump the cache contents, and > then expect the application writers to take note of potential problem > situations and generate correct code to deal with them. If one could set such a flag globally, then all the stuff in libc that uses malloc could be written to look at that global flag and DTRT, without changing any of the interfaces at all. Set the flag in crt0 to the current action (no action) and things in fact would not change at all, no speed penalty. Doesn't sound like a bad idea at all. > > One could arge that my knowledge that you are running on a Televideo > terminal would make you subject to "send screen to host" based attacks > (which I will note, I have personally used in system-cracking exercises > to obtain "sensitive" exercise target information). Should we then > zero the environment, which contains the TERM entry? What about the > termcap entry, for which libtermcap.a would count as a caching library > system? > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 9120 Edmonston Ct #302 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and n3lxx, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 2.2 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 17:53:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA24706 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 17:53:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from itchy.mindspring.com (itchy.mindspring.com [204.180.128.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA24701 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 17:53:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bogus.mindspring.com (borg.mindspring.com [204.180.128.14]) by itchy.mindspring.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA24980; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 20:52:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961020005229.0073f6d8@mindspring.com> X-Sender: kpneal@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 20:52:29 -0400 To: Poul-Henning Kamp From: "Kevin P. Neal" Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 09:05 PM 10/19/96 +0200, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >It doesn't solve the problem in all cases. A better and more complete >fix would be to add an option to malloc that means "zero on free(3)" >and set this in the programs affected. > >That would be more complete, more general and not make innocent >programs suffer a potentially huge performance hit. Hmmmmm. That's a neat idea. Mmmmmm. (grabs pencil, makes note, tacks it to wall next to random phone numbers). I'll have to remember that, it'll come in handy sometime. -- XCOMM Kevin P. Neal, Sophomore, Comp. Sci. \ kpneal@pobox.com XCOMM "Corrected!" -- Old Amiga tips file \ kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu XCOMM Visit the House of Retrocomputing: / Perm. Email: XCOMM http://www.pobox.com/~kpn/ / kevinneal@bix.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 17:59:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA24848 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 17:59:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from itchy.mindspring.com (itchy.mindspring.com [204.180.128.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA24843 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 17:59:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bogus.mindspring.com (borg.mindspring.com [204.180.128.14]) by itchy.mindspring.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA25446; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 20:58:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961020005800.0067af0c@mindspring.com> X-Sender: kpneal@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 20:58:00 -0400 To: Poul-Henning Kamp From: "Kevin P. Neal" Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, misc@openbsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 09:31 PM 10/19/96 +0200, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >>I never *once* made any sort of personal attack. That was finely done by >>phk, assumingly representing FreeBSD core. > >I will kindly point out some finer points of communication, which >obviously are unknown to you: > >1. I am a member of the FreeBSD core-team > >2. I state this in my .sig, alongside other pertinent and inpertinent > information. > >3. That doesn't imply that I speak for or represent the FreeBSD core > in my email. Just like I don't represent TFS in this email for > instance. Right. >4. From the above it is clear that you would have to look at the > contents of the email to see if I represent core, a tell tale > sign would be "On behalf of..." or similar. Hmmm. Makes sense. >5. These were not present in any of those emails. Right. >Get your facts straight, and your assumptions out of the way. I kinda like the way Jason Thorpe handles Official NetBSD Core vs Jason messages: He has different .sigs. One is for personal stuff, and looks like many .sigs on the net (4 lines, phone number, email, full name, etc). The other .sig says very clearly "NetBSD Core" or something terribly similar. Avoids the entire attack in the first place. (leaves .sig in because it's what I'm talking about) (CCs trimmed, I assume all involved read those two lists.) >-- >Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. >http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. >whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. >Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. > -- XCOMM Kevin P. Neal, Sophomore, Comp. Sci. \ kpneal@pobox.com XCOMM "Corrected!" -- Old Amiga tips file \ kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu XCOMM Visit the House of Retrocomputing: / Perm. Email: XCOMM http://www.pobox.com/~kpn/ / kevinneal@bix.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 18:03:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA24990 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 18:03:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panda.hilink.com.au (panda.hilink.com.au [203.2.144.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA24984 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 18:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from danny@localhost) by panda.hilink.com.au (8.7.6/8.7.3) id LAA02084; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 11:03:19 +1000 (EST) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 11:03:15 +1000 (EST) From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: splash-page on bootup.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, Mark Mayo wrote: > On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, Dan Busarow wrote: > > > On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, Peter da Silva wrote: > > > If FreeBSD started putting up a splash page on boot I'd rip that code > > > > But the nice thing about the way Unixware does this is how easy it is > > to disable. Just rm or mv the logo file in /stand. > > > > One vote for load a splash image if you find it in /stand otherwise > > I like this idea as well. Simple and easy, for all levels of expertise.. > > 2 votes! Me too! Three! Danny From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 18:06:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA25118 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 18:06:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from answerman.mindspring.com (answerman.mindspring.com [204.180.128.8]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA25113 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 18:06:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bogus.mindspring.com (borg.mindspring.com [204.180.128.14]) by answerman.mindspring.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA28716; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 21:05:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961020010545.0073eeb8@mindspring.com> X-Sender: kpneal@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 21:05:45 -0400 To: Mark Mayo From: "Kevin P. Neal" Subject: Re: splash-page on bootup.. Cc: Dan Busarow , Peter da Silva , hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 04:50 PM 10/19/96 -0400, Mark Mayo wrote: >On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, Dan Busarow wrote: > >> On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, Peter da Silva wrote: >> > If FreeBSD started putting up a splash page on boot I'd rip that code >> > out and remove it from the disk. I *hate* the "mystery blue screen" >> > approach to booting. When Unixware came in and started doing that it >> > was actually enough to make me start looking elsewhere. >> >> But the nice thing about the way Unixware does this is how easy it is >> to disable. Just rm or mv the logo file in /stand. >> >> One vote for load a splash image if you find it in /stand otherwise >> show the probes. > >I like this idea as well. Simple and easy, for all levels of expertise.. > >2 votes! > Make that 3 votes. Where I work we have many different kinds of machine. There are lots of PCs, and lots of "Unix" boxes. The attitude at work (at least with the people most near me) is that PCs should run Windows NT, and HP-PA boxes run Unix. Period. Then they say things like "We need a way to have faster web servers." when they just put in a dozen P5-200 64mb machines on the floor (in the MIS department!). Anything I can show to them to justify a case for FreeBSD is a big plus. C'mon, work with me here. Thanks! -- XCOMM Kevin P. Neal, Sophomore, Comp. Sci. \ kpneal@pobox.com XCOMM "Corrected!" -- Old Amiga tips file \ kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu XCOMM Visit the House of Retrocomputing: / Perm. Email: XCOMM http://www.pobox.com/~kpn/ / kevinneal@bix.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 18:12:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA25333 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 18:12:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from answerman.mindspring.com (answerman.mindspring.com [204.180.128.8]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA25323; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 18:12:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bogus.mindspring.com (borg.mindspring.com [204.180.128.14]) by answerman.mindspring.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA29356; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 21:12:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961020011211.00758578@mindspring.com> X-Sender: kpneal@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 21:12:11 -0400 To: Michael Shuldman From: "Kevin P. Neal" Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c Cc: karl@mcs.net, deraadt@theos.com, dyson@freebsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 11:57 PM 10/19/96 +0000, Michael Shuldman wrote: >If you don't want replies, why send mail at all ? >It never ceases to amaze me how some people like to make some quick, >childish stabs out of the dark, often loaded with personal attacks, >and end it with something along the lines of that _they_ are "done", >"I'm unsubscribing", "you are in my kill file from now on", etc. >Reminds me of the game some kids like to play, ringing the door >bell at foreign houses and then running away in hiding. >Pathetic. You left out the rest of the prank: Leaving a burning bag on the porch. Person comes out door, sees burning bag, stomps it. Guess what? The bag was full of shit, which is now everywhere. Why did I mention this? Because I think it's kinda fitting in this whole argument. Sheesh. Oh, and my personal fav is this: "Well, HE started it!" "Did not! You started it!" "Did not!" "Did too!" My Mom, apon hearing this, would say "Then YOU stop it.", occasionally throwing in a "I don't care who started it, ....." Don't make me bring my Mom onto the lists. -- XCOMM Kevin P. Neal, Sophomore, Comp. Sci. \ kpneal@pobox.com XCOMM "Corrected!" -- Old Amiga tips file \ kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu XCOMM Visit the House of Retrocomputing: / Perm. Email: XCOMM http://www.pobox.com/~kpn/ / kevinneal@bix.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 19:03:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA26671 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 19:03:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA26666 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 19:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id TAA03344; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 19:01:11 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610200201.TAA03344@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c To: chuckr@glue.umd.edu (Chuck Robey) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 19:01:11 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, dnelson@emsphone.com, ache@nagual.ru, deraadt@theos.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Chuck Robey" at Oct 19, 96 08:22:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > It seems to me that the correct approach is to provide a conditional > > interface to any caching library system -- whether it be db or stdio > > or some other interface -- to explicitly dump the cache contents, and > > then expect the application writers to take note of potential problem > > situations and generate correct code to deal with them. > > If one could set such a flag globally, then all the stuff in libc that > uses malloc could be written to look at that global flag and DTRT, without > changing any of the interfaces at all. Set the flag in crt0 to the > current action (no action) and things in fact would not change at all, no > speed penalty. Doesn't sound like a bad idea at all. Well, you would hope that you could set the flag locally, where it's supported, and it would be globally supported. Basically, you'd have a linker set initialization function for an affected library, and when the program started, it would call the setup functions, which would in turn obey the flag, if set. Alternately, you could eat a compare on each "free" event; it's not much overhead, but being a computational nanosecond kind of person, I'd like to avoid all overhead. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 19:06:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA26834 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 19:06:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [128.120.56.38]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA26829 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 19:06:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by relay.nuxi.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id TAA20399; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 19:06:52 -0700 (PDT) From: "David E. O'Brien" Message-Id: <199610200206.TAA20399@relay.nuxi.com> Subject: Re: 961014-SNAP probe problem To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 19:06:51 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, obrien@NUXI.cs.ucdavis.edu In-Reply-To: <199610192237.AAA03718@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Oct 20, 96 00:37:51 am" X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > mcd0: type Mitsumi ???, version info 21 > > mcd0: at 0x300-0x303 irq 10 on isa > > > Any idea how to pin down what caused the false detection? > > I think the mcd driver is a known offender for false detections. > Disable it if you don't have an `mcd' drive. Yep, I did (the config screen works nice). Do you think this will be a problem for releases? -- David (obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 19:42:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA28311 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 19:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA28305 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 19:42:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.0/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id CAA14270; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 02:42:26 GMT Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 11:42:25 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Karl Denninger cc: misc@openbsd.org, FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Copyrights: (Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c) In-Reply-To: <199610191640.LAA03279@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, Karl Denninger wrote: > > > > This is really sad > > > Theo... I will still help the OpenBSD team with VM problems... > > > > Thank you. But I will not help FreeBSD with security problems unless > > something drastic happens. > > Consider any commit that I place on FreeBSD from here on out to be > Copyrighted by me and forbidden to show up in your codebase. And yes, I > will put legal notice on them if I have to. > > I strongly suggest other developers to do the same with their commits. Karl, I know you're joking. Lest any developer take this seriously, please don't pollute the copyrights. It's your choice, but does it really matter if OpenBSD freely uses FreeBSD contributions while an individual there hoards his? Delete mail you don't want to read. Regards, Mike Hancock From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 19:46:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA28579 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 19:46:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from modemss.brisnet.org.au (root@modemss.brisnet.org.au [203.16.232.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA28574 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 19:46:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mfbourne.brisnet.org.au (mfbourne@mfbourne.brisnet.org.au [203.16.232.77]) by modemss.brisnet.org.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA03335 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 12:13:23 +1000 Message-Id: <199610200213.MAA03335@modemss.brisnet.org.au> From: mfbourne@modemss.brisnet.org.au (Michael F. Bourne) X-SMTP-Client: Amiga PutMail 1.24 by Martin Lanza. Date: Sun, 20 Oct 96 12:12:36 Reply-To: Michael Bourne To: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk E-Mail: Michael Bourne Brisnet Enquiries: 3229 3229 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 20:27:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA01100 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 20:27:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zygorthian-space-raiders.MIT.EDU (ZYGORTHIAN-SPACE-RAIDERS.MIT.EDU [18.70.0.61]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA01090 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 20:27:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mycroft@localhost) by zygorthian-space-raiders.MIT.EDU (8.7.4/8.6.11) id XAA25975; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 23:27:28 -0400 (EDT) To: tech-userlevel@NetBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: setuid, core dumps, ftpd, and DB From: mycroft@mit.edu (Charles M. Hannum) Date: 19 Oct 1996 23:27:17 -0400 Message-ID: Lines: 51 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.2.37/Emacs 19.30 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk There seems to be a lot of confusion about the security issues here, so I will give a quick summary. * Zeroing DB buffers is at best a partial solution to the security issues raised. It does not deal with stdio buffers or RPC buffers. It does not deal with temporary data areas used by such things as sorting routines. * There are probably a number of cases where a process can be sent a signal that would normally cause a core dump, while it still has sensitive data. A program using sensitive data should be aware of this and prevent itself from core dumping. However, there are cases where a process may not be able to know this, because a library may have external storage that it doesn't know about. * As an added check, in NetBSD, a process may not core dump if it has ever changed its IDs since (or during) the most recent exec; this is intended to insure that any data fetched by a set-id program is removed. However, this is *not* a complete solution in itself, because it's possible for a set-id program to call another one, which would not have this protection. (The set-id program could of course disable core dumping before calling the program, so it does have a way around this.) * In the particular case of ftpd, if you've logged in as a user other than root, then your saved, real, and effective uids do not match, so the previous check we used to use (ruid != svuid || ruid != euid) would catch this. So, unless you're logged in as root, you'd be hard pressed to get ftpd to core dump. * Although core dumps are written with mode 0600, this is not secure in all environments. In particular, it may be written out over NFS (and thus sent over the wire in cleartext), or it may be written out to AFS (for which the mode means more or less nothing, and which may also be snooped if encryption is not enabled). It seems to me that a general tainting algorithm for deciding when a program has sensitive data, and preventing core dumps during those times, is what we really need. Questions to consider: * Do you prevent core dumps if you've ever had any tainted data, or do you attempt to decide when you no longer have any? * If the latter, how? Always zero buffers (including partial zeroing of stdio buffers as you read from them!), create new interfaces to the libraries to inform them which data is secure, etc? Garbage collection? B-) I invite people to start a (sane) dialog on this issue. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 20:57:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA02707 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 20:57:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from home.winc.com (root@home.winc.com [204.178.182.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA02701 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 20:57:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phoenix.aristar.com (slip125.winc.com [204.178.182.125]) by home.winc.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA13736; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 23:57:08 -0400 Message-ID: <3269A36C.41C67EA6@aristar.com> Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 23:58:36 -0400 From: "Matthew A. Gessner" Organization: Aristar, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers Subject: install on Dell P60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, all, Something funny's going on here. I've installed FreeBSD 2.1.0 on my machine at home, a Dell Dimension Pentium 60 MHz w/ 16MB RAM and 2 500MB harddrives and a 250MB IOMega tape drive (ft0) and a panasonic/matsushita CDROM. Previously, I had linux installed, only before I'd gotten FreeBSD up and running at work. Well, the installation goes fine, but when I try to reboot, my system does a hard reboot after the first couple of /-\|/ go by. When I try to boot from the floppy to wd(1,a)/kernel, I get further, but eventually the kernel panics. I can't think of anything I did wrong. I set wd1a bootable which is where my kernel resides, DOS still boots OK. Can anyone give me some insight or start asking me questions to see if I can pin down what's wrong? I love the way the installation is made so easy, and I really can't figure out what I've done wrong. TIA, Matt -- Matthew Gessner, Computer Scientist, Aristar, Inc. 302 N. Cleveland-Massillon Rd. Akron, OH 44333 Voice (330) 668-2267, Fax (330) 668-2961 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 22:25:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA07780 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 22:25:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vinyl.quickweb.com (vinyl.sentex.ca [206.222.77.8]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA07775 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 22:25:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (mark@localhost) by vinyl.quickweb.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA28248 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 01:24:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: vinyl.quickweb.com: mark owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 01:24:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Mayo To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: JDK 1.0.2 problem.. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I know this package is unsupported by the author, but I'm hoping some else has encountered this problem :-) I've been using the JDK for a while now - for applet development, and it's been fine. After I changed all instances of `arch` in the jdk/bin/* scripts, everything seemed to run just fine. javac works great, haven't had a hitch, and the appletviewer works fine as well. Even the disassembler. But I just tried to use the java iterpreter by itself, with no luck.. All I get is: mark:{192}/home/mark/Code/java/Networking % ll total 4 -rw-r--r-- 1 mark mark 1621 Oct 20 00:55 EchoTest.class -rw-r--r-- 1 mark mark 1307 Oct 20 00:55 EchoTest.java mark:{193}/home/mark/Code/java/Networking % java EchoTest Can't find class EchoTest mark:{194}/home/mark/Code/java/Networking % Which is odd.. seeing how the appletviewer (if I understand it correctly) uses "java" for it's interpretting and has no problems. I know this is the correct way of starting the interpreter, but it just aint working.. also, jdb seems to be unable to load class files.. Like I said, I'm somewhat puzzled because the appletviewer works fine. Anyone out there having the same weirdness?? TIA for any help, -Mark P.S.: . is in my path (current directory), and I also tried java EchoTest.class ... and I'm pretty sure my CLASSPATH is correct becuase jdb can list all available classes in the java and sun packages. It just can't find my class... and it is public :-) ------------------------------------------- | Mark Mayo mark@quickweb.com | | C-Soft www.quickweb.com | ------------------------------------------- "To iterate is human, to recurse divine." - L. Peter Deutsch From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 22:26:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA07813 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 22:26:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA07808 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 22:26:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA00883 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 22:26:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610200526.WAA00883@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Apollo and Matrox Meteor? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 22:26:49 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Howdy, I am wondering if anyone has an Apollo chipset based motherboard and has managed to get the Matrox Meteor to work with it? Just looking for alternatives to Intel's 440FX chipset. Tnks, Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 22:46:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA08818 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 22:46:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA08812 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 22:46:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA11039; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 23:46:37 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 23:46:37 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199610200546.XAA11039@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: Mark Mayo Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: JDK 1.0.2 problem.. In-Reply-To: References: Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > But I just tried to use the java iterpreter by itself, with no luck.. > > All I get is: > > mark:{192}/home/mark/Code/java/Networking % ll > total 4 > -rw-r--r-- 1 mark mark 1621 Oct 20 00:55 EchoTest.class > -rw-r--r-- 1 mark mark 1307 Oct 20 00:55 EchoTest.java > mark:{193}/home/mark/Code/java/Networking % java EchoTest > Can't find class EchoTest > mark:{194}/home/mark/Code/java/Networking % Hmm, I don't know what to tell you. I just ran the java binary against the 'HelloWorld' applet provided to test out 'kaffe' and it works fine. On anything else it blows up simply because all of my other examples are applets. :) Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 23:30:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA10519 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 23:30:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (disn1.cybercity.dk [194.16.57.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA10487; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 23:29:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA22247; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 08:29:35 +0200 (MET DST) To: "Kevin P. Neal" cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, misc@openbsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/db/hash hash_buf.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 19 Oct 1996 20:58:00 EDT." <1.5.4.32.19961020005800.0067af0c@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 08:29:35 +0200 Message-ID: <22245.845792975@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I kinda like the way Jason Thorpe handles Official NetBSD Core vs Jason >messages: He has different .sigs. One is for personal stuff, and looks >like many .sigs on the net (4 lines, phone number, email, full name, etc). > >The other .sig says very clearly "NetBSD Core" or something terribly similar. > >Avoids the entire attack in the first place. I don't think anybody has ever been in doubt before, if the email I sent represented -core or me. I don't think it ever will either. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Oct 19 23:41:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA11066 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 23:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (disn1.cybercity.dk [194.16.57.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA11061; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 23:41:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA22295; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 08:40:24 +0200 (MET DST) To: mycroft@mit.edu (Charles M. Hannum) cc: tech-userlevel@NetBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: setuid, core dumps, ftpd, and DB In-reply-to: Your message of "19 Oct 1996 23:27:17 EDT." Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 08:40:24 +0200 Message-ID: <22293.845793624@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Charles, It was pointed out by me already 8 years ago: "[...] core-dumps as default is an evil thing. There should be some way to >enable< core-dumps when you want them, rather than have them as default. This would also solve security issue where a core-dump may contain sensitive information. [...]" What we need is really a new syscall: procctl(pid, function, arg) with the following functions: PROCCTL_NOCORE disable core-dumping (arg not used) PROCCTL_CORE enable core-dumping (arg not used) PROCCTL_NEVERCORE disables core-dumping, and it cannot be reenabled until after next exec (arg not used) PROCCTL_CORENAME (arg is pathname to use for corefile) -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so.