From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jul 22 06:41:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA28438 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 06:41:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nlsystems.com (nlsys.demon.co.uk [158.152.125.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA28433 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 06:40:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from herring.nlsystems.com (herring.nlsystems.com [10.0.0.2]) by nlsystems.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA27126 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:40:09 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:40:09 +0100 (BST) From: Doug Rabson To: alpha@freebsd.org Subject: Its arrived Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk My alpha loan machine just arrived! Does anyone have a plan on how to start off this port? I guess installing NetBSD would be a good start. Does anyone think Linux/alpha is worth looking at? -- Doug Rabson Mail: dfr@nlsystems.com Nonlinear Systems Ltd. Phone: +44 181 951 1891 Fax: +44 181 381 1039 From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jul 22 10:08:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA11591 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 10:08:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA11586 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 10:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA04249; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 10:06:24 -0700 (PDT) To: Doug Rabson cc: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Its arrived In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:40:09 BST." Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 10:06:24 -0700 Message-ID: <4244.869591184@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > My alpha loan machine just arrived! Does anyone have a plan on how to > start off this port? I guess installing NetBSD would be a good start. > Does anyone think Linux/alpha is worth looking at? Great, really glad to hear that! I heard from DG that his machine has arrived also, so now if Peter and Warner would like to chime in as to the status of their shipments, perhaps we can finally put the whole Digital loan arrangement hassles behind us and get on with the actual port. ;-) Installing NetBSD would probably not be a bad idea at all, though if you're looking for an environment from which to bootstrap your efforts (that being why there are 2 drives in those machines with only one actually populated :-) then you're probably best off with what you've got installed on it right now - Digital UNIX. DUX is a stable development platform, it has a decent toolchain (and a compiler which generally produces better code that gcc at present) and all the X frobs you could possibly want (plus some you probably won't, like CDE :-). Of course, you also don't get the source. That's the really big disadvantage of running DUX - you can't see what's going on under the hood, so to speak. I'll also admit that pure laziness largely dictated my own choice - I looked at the NetBSD installation and thought "It's distributed as an rz25 disk image... Hmmmm. How very interesting. Now where did I leave that Digital UNIX CDROM?" :-) Before that, I ran Red Hat Linux just to see what they were up to and I wasn't much impressed. You couldn't even build a working kernel from the sources distributed with Red Hat 4.1 (something which RH admitted to) and stability was not all that marvelous - I managed to hang the system quite often just while playing with various X utilities. Getting a reasonable set of sources for RedHat installed, after being used to our own /usr/src tree, was also a nightmare by comparison. :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jul 22 11:00:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA15028 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:00:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA15020 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:00:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA13621; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 10:57:27 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199707221757.KAA13621@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Its arrived To: dfr@nlsystems.com (Doug Rabson) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 10:57:27 -0700 (MST) Cc: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Doug Rabson" at Jul 22, 97 02:40:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > My alpha loan machine just arrived! Does anyone have a plan on how to > start off this port? I guess installing NetBSD would be a good start. > Does anyone think Linux/alpha is worth looking at? I installed the Linux/Alpha microcode diskette on my Alpha when I first got it from OnSale (several months ago). It was required for NetBSD. What microcode does the machine have? That will determine whether or not you can install NetBSD at all. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jul 22 11:17:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA16360 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:17:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nlsystems.com (nlsys.demon.co.uk [158.152.125.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA16340 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:17:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from herring.nlsystems.com (herring.nlsystems.com [10.0.0.2]) by nlsystems.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA01221; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 19:16:17 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 19:16:17 +0100 (BST) From: Doug Rabson To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Its arrived In-Reply-To: <4244.869591184@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > My alpha loan machine just arrived! Does anyone have a plan on how to > > start off this port? I guess installing NetBSD would be a good start. > > Does anyone think Linux/alpha is worth looking at? > > Great, really glad to hear that! I heard from DG that his machine has > arrived also, so now if Peter and Warner would like to chime in as to > the status of their shipments, perhaps we can finally put the whole > Digital loan arrangement hassles behind us and get on with the actual > port. ;-) > > Installing NetBSD would probably not be a bad idea at all, though if > you're looking for an environment from which to bootstrap your efforts > (that being why there are 2 drives in those machines with only one > actually populated :-) Hmm. I can only see one drive in this one. There is space for another so I might just buy one. then you're probably best off with what you've > got installed on it right now - Digital UNIX. DUX is a stable > development platform, it has a decent toolchain (and a compiler which > generally produces better code that gcc at present) and all the X > frobs you could possibly want (plus some you probably won't, like CDE :-). Well I have the machine up and running in DUX and it seems OK so far. I even 'improved' our NFS interoperability a bit, working around some bogosities in DUX's NFS client. > > Of course, you also don't get the source. That's the really big > disadvantage of running DUX - you can't see what's going on under the > hood, so to speak. > > I'll also admit that pure laziness largely dictated my own choice - I > looked at the NetBSD installation and thought "It's distributed as an > rz25 disk image... Hmmmm. How very interesting. Now where did I > leave that Digital UNIX CDROM?" :-) I hope that we can improve on NetBSD's alpha install a little... That is some way down the line though. > > Before that, I ran Red Hat Linux just to see what they were up to and > I wasn't much impressed. You couldn't even build a working kernel > from the sources distributed with Red Hat 4.1 (something which RH > admitted to) and stability was not all that marvelous - I managed to > hang the system quite often just while playing with various X > utilities. Getting a reasonable set of sources for RedHat installed, > after being used to our own /usr/src tree, was also a nightmare by > comparison. :) I will probably buy a copy of RedHat anyway just to see what it looks like and what the install is like. -- Doug Rabson Mail: dfr@nlsystems.com Nonlinear Systems Ltd. Phone: +44 181 951 1891 Fax: +44 181 381 1039 From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jul 22 11:26:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA16819 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:26:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cynic.portal.ca (root@cynic.portal.ca [204.174.36.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA16805 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([[UNIX: localhost]]) by cynic.portal.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA19148; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:26:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cynic.portal.ca: cjs owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:26:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Curt Sampson To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Doug Rabson , alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Its arrived In-Reply-To: <4244.869591184@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > I'll also admit that pure laziness largely dictated my own choice - I > looked at the NetBSD installation and thought "It's distributed as an > rz25 disk image... Hmmmm. How very interesting. Now where did I > leave that Digital UNIX CDROM?" :-) More recent snapshots are available as tar files, too. I've found the easiest way to install is to unpack a basic system on another machine, boot the Alpha via NFS, and install on the hard disk from there. The most recent snapshot on ftp.netbsd.org is 970423, which is quite stable. I've got a more recent one (around June 16th or so) running on my mail file server at home, which I would be happy to pack up for you in some format you find reasonable, if you want. (It will take some time, though; I'm on 166 MHz AXPpci33s and uploading via a modem.) cjs Curt Sampson cjs@portal.ca Info at http://www.portal.ca/ Internet Portal Services, Inc. Through infinite myst, software reverberates Vancouver, BC (604) 257-9400 In code possess'd of invisible folly. From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jul 22 11:52:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA19076 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:52:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from intercore.com (num1sun.intercore.com [199.181.243.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA19071 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:52:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (robin@localhost) by intercore.com (8.7.1/8.6.4) id OAA23617; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:49:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970722144921.62520@num1sun.intercore.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:49:22 -0400 From: Robin Cutshaw To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Doug Rabson , alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Its arrived References: <4244.869591184@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: <4244.869591184@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Tue, Jul 22, 1997 at 10:06:24AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jul 22, 1997 at 10:06:24AM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Installing NetBSD would probably not be a bad idea at all, though if > you're looking for an environment from which to bootstrap your efforts > (that being why there are 2 drives in those machines with only one > actually populated :-) then you're probably best off with what you've > got installed on it right now - Digital UNIX. DUX is a stable > development platform, it has a decent toolchain (and a compiler which > generally produces better code that gcc at present) and all the X > frobs you could possibly want (plus some you probably won't, like CDE :-). > If you want a *real* stable X, use DUX. I did parts of the Linux-alpha port and the servers are a real #$%^& to get working. XFree86 is mostly working now but there are still some glitches here and there. > > Before that, I ran Red Hat Linux just to see what they were up to and > I wasn't much impressed. You couldn't even build a working kernel > from the sources distributed with Red Hat 4.1 (something which RH > admitted to) and stability was not all that marvelous - I managed to > hang the system quite often just while playing with various X > utilities. Getting a reasonable set of sources for RedHat installed, > after being used to our own /usr/src tree, was also a nightmare by > comparison. :) > I just installed 4.2 (after living through the old days with 4.0/1) and it worked pretty well. A good milo is the key. I look forward to working with XFree86 on FreeBSD as your work progresses... robin -- ---- Robin Cutshaw internet: robin@interlabs.com robin@intercore.com Internet Labs, Inc. BellNet: 404-817-9787 robin@XFree86.Org "Time is just one damn thing after another" -- PBS/Nova ---- -- From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jul 22 11:57:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA19379 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:57:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA19374 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:57:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA13608; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:55:54 -0700 (PDT) To: Doug Rabson cc: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Its arrived In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 22 Jul 1997 19:16:17 BST." Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:55:54 -0700 Message-ID: <13603.869597754@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Hmm. I can only see one drive in this one. There is space for another so > I might just buy one. Really? Weird! David's has 2, and I thought all the workstations came configured identically. Sorry about that! We can also buy you one and send it to you if you like - I would hate to see anybody go out of pocket on this project on top of their volunteer hours. > Well I have the machine up and running in DUX and it seems OK so far. I > even 'improved' our NFS interoperability a bit, working around some > bogosities in DUX's NFS client. I wondered about that commit. :) > I hope that we can improve on NetBSD's alpha install a little... That is > some way down the line though. Indeed it is, though I also figured it as a fairly foregone conclusion that we'll go for a fully capable CDROM/FTP/... install when that truly becomes an issue since WC has an active interest in supporting such things (as does the project). > I will probably buy a copy of RedHat anyway just to see what it looks like > and what the install is like. Yeeks, don't buy that, I'll send you a CD. :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jul 22 12:15:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA20547 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 12:15:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA20540 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 12:15:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with ESMTP id PAA13445; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:15:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orion.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with ESMTP id PAA02642; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:15:10 -0400 (EDT) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Doug Rabson , alpha@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: Its arrived In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 22 Jul 1997 10:06:24 PDT." <4244.869591184@time.cdrom.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:15:10 -0400 Message-ID: <2640.869598910@orion.webspan.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote in message ID <4244.869591184@time.cdrom.com>: > Before that, I ran Red Hat Linux just to see what they were up to and > I wasn't much impressed. This is something I've heard echoed from friends. Linux/Alpha is fine for desktop machines that you can crash regularly, but don't expect it to have long uptimes. Even tho they hated it, they went back to DUX for production (they complained about not being able to tune it enough). Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jul 22 12:21:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA20971 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 12:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA20963 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 12:21:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.60 #1) id 0wqkUd-0003u7-00; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:21:07 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: Its arrived Cc: Doug Rabson , alpha@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 22 Jul 1997 10:06:24 PDT." <4244.869591184@time.cdrom.com> References: <4244.869591184@time.cdrom.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:21:07 -0600 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <4244.869591184@time.cdrom.com> "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: : Great, really glad to hear that! I heard from DG that his machine has : arrived also, so now if Peter and Warner would like to chime in as to : the status of their shipments, perhaps we can finally put the whole : Digital loan arrangement hassles behind us and get on with the actual : port. ;-) As of 11:00am, no such machine had arrived at my house. I'd likely run OpenBSD/alpha for variety (and because I have an up to date OpenBSD source tree haning around for the MIPS box I have). Actually, I'll likely run DUX since the compilers are faster there and produce faster code. Warner From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jul 22 13:19:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA24819 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:19:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA24792 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:19:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id NAA15356 for alpha@freebsd.org; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:19:06 -0700 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:19:06 -0700 From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199707222019.NAA15356@kithrup.com> To: alpha@freebsd.org Subject: gcc port Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Okay, have we decided what the execution evnironment for freebsd/alpha will be? (e.g., a.out, coff, elf, stabs, dwarf, ecoff, etc.) I can make a cross compiler for gcc, gas, and binutils pretty easily, I think, if we have a decision. Assumign anyone wants one :). Sean. From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jul 22 13:26:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA25345 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:26:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA25326 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:25:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id NAA15659; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:25:57 -0700 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:25:57 -0700 From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199707222025.NAA15659@kithrup.com> To: alpha@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Its arrived In-Reply-To: <2640.869598910.kithrup.freebsd.freebsd-arch.alpha@orion.webspan.net> References: Your message of "Tue, 22 Jul 1997 10:06:24 PDT." <4244.869591184@time.cdrom.com> Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <2640.869598910.kithrup.freebsd.freebsd-arch.alpha@orion.webspan.net> you write: >> Before that, I ran Red Hat Linux just to see what they were up to and >> I wasn't much impressed. >This is something I've heard echoed from friends. Linux/Alpha is fine >for desktop machines that you can crash regularly, but don't expect it >to have long uptimes. Wow. This is *not* what Linus tells me. And while he may be biased, he's been fairly honest with me. However, he probably doesn't use a Red Hat distribution, except for the utilities :). If anyone really wants linux for teh alpha to do development, I can try asking him about it. (I know where the ducks in his apartment complex live, so he has to help me. :)) From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jul 22 13:26:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA25357 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:26:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA25330 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:26:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA13992; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:22:19 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199707222022.NAA13992@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Its arrived To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:22:19 -0700 (MST) Cc: dfr@nlsystems.com, alpha@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4244.869591184@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jul 22, 97 10:06:24 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Installing NetBSD would probably not be a bad idea at all, though if > you're looking for an environment from which to bootstrap your efforts > (that being why there are 2 drives in those machines with only one > actually populated :-) then you're probably best off with what you've > got installed on it right now - Digital UNIX. DUX is a stable > development platform, it has a decent toolchain (and a compiler which > generally produces better code that gcc at present) and all the X > frobs you could possibly want (plus some you probably won't, like CDE :-). I guess, at least initially, the arguemnt for using the NT vs. the OSF microcode has been rescinded? > I'll also admit that pure laziness largely dictated my own choice - I > looked at the NetBSD installation and thought "It's distributed as an > rz25 disk image... Hmmmm. How very interesting. Now where did I > leave that Digital UNIX CDROM?" :-) It's is relatively trivial to take any 450M or larger disk and dd the image to it. After this, you can modify the disklabel relatively easily to span the whole disk (be sure and frob up the number of partitions in the label at the same time, or it won't stick). Since the disk geometry is not used (except to pester the user with asterisks in the label editing process for no good reason, since the damn drives are ZBR'ed anyway), one absolute sector offset is as good as another. I had a number of problems with the swap. You must explicity name it "swap" in the label for it to work; this is a bit of a pain. Also the default device name was wrong in the /etc/fstab it installed. Other than that, it was not too terrible. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jul 22 14:32:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA29934 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:32:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA29929 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:32:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.60 #1) id 0wqmX3-0004Ja-00; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:31:45 -0600 To: Sean Eric Fagan Subject: Re: gcc port Cc: alpha@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:19:06 PDT." <199707222019.NAA15356@kithrup.com> References: <199707222019.NAA15356@kithrup.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:31:45 -0600 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199707222019.NAA15356@kithrup.com> Sean Eric Fagan writes: : Okay, have we decided what the execution evnironment for freebsd/alpha : will be? (e.g., a.out, coff, elf, stabs, dwarf, ecoff, etc.) ELF would be my vote, unless there is a compelling reason to do something else. The boot roms want to load an ECOFF image, as far as I can recall, but that will just be our stage1 loader. And that is tied up with the console issues that we may have to deal with at some point. : I can make a cross compiler for gcc, gas, and binutils pretty easily, : I think, if we have a decision. Assumign anyone wants one :). I was going to hack the gcc in the tree to support Alpha/ELF (or more properly alpha-dec-freebsd3.0) configuration. However, I wasn't sure about this, due to the as/ld situation. as/ld/ et al would be much harder because our binutils are ancient. I wasn't sure what to do about them. Should be realitvely easy to add this support to the latest binutils, however. I'm nearly positive they support alpha/elf to some extent. I think that dux->freebsd cross compiler would be good. Followed shortly by a freebsd/i386->freebsd/alpha compiler (so my PPro can be put to good use :-). It will likely be quite some time before we have a full tree that will compile. Also, there are lots of problems cross compiling the current FreeBSD tree. I think Satoshi's patches will help that a *LOT*, but I'm not positive, since I haven't tried it. The tree is generally missing the non-i386 files for many things (libc and libkern come to mind), so someone will have to dig up something for these routines. I have an old, slightly out of date "how to build a cross compiler" for when I was doing Linux/MIPS that can be found off of http://www.village.org/villagers/imp somewhere. Now that iron is arriving, is there a plan on how to proceed? Warner From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jul 22 14:35:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA00208 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:35:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA00194 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:35:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA00783; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:33:37 -0700 (PDT) To: Sean Eric Fagan cc: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: gcc port In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:19:06 PDT." <199707222019.NAA15356@kithrup.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:33:36 -0700 Message-ID: <779.869607216@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Okay, have we decided what the execution evnironment for freebsd/alpha > will be? (e.g., a.out, coff, elf, stabs, dwarf, ecoff, etc.) I'm assuming whatever the other *BSDs have chosen - to diverge in such a small market would be silly. That would be ELF, yes? Jordan From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jul 22 14:41:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA00694 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA00687 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id OAA21114; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:41:28 -0700 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:41:28 -0700 From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199707222141.OAA21114@kithrup.com> To: imp@rover.village.org Subject: Re: gcc port Cc: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I was going to hack the gcc in the tree to support Alpha/ELF (or more >properly alpha-dec-freebsd3.0) configuration. However, I wasn't sure >about this, due to the as/ld situation. That would probably be my choice, also. >as/ld/ et al would be much harder because our binutils are ancient. I >wasn't sure what to do about them. Should be realitvely easy to add >this support to the latest binutils, however. I'm nearly positive >they support alpha/elf to some extent. I was just going to use the new binutils, including BFD. That also handles the problem of ECOFF -- libbfd can convert, among other things. >I think that dux->freebsd cross compiler would be good. Followed >shortly by a freebsd/i386->freebsd/alpha compiler (so my PPro can be >put to good use :-). Well, I'd do a freebsd-hosted compiler chain first, of course. Since that's what I have. Porting to be hosted on DUX should be fairly simple, since gcc already supports that system. >I have an old, slightly out of date "how to build a cross compiler" >for when I was doing Linux/MIPS that can be found off of >http://www.village.org/villagers/imp somewhere. Trust me... I know how to do cross compilers :). Four+ years at cygnus may have left me nearly broke, but that is one thing I can do *REAL* well these days :). Sean. From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jul 22 14:43:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA00862 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:43:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA00857 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:43:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id OAA21218; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:42:41 -0700 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:42:41 -0700 From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199707222142.OAA21218@kithrup.com> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com Subject: Re: gcc port Cc: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I'm assuming whatever the other *BSDs have chosen - to diverge in such >a small market would be silly. That would be ELF, yes? Okay, initially I can just make freebsd-alpha an alias for netbsd-alpha. Sean. From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jul 22 14:58:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA01817 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:58:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.digital.com (mail2.digital.com [204.123.2.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA01812 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:58:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dnaunix.pa.dec.com (dnaunix.pa.dec.com [16.4.208.21]) by mail2.digital.com (8.7.5/UNX 1.5/1.0/WV) with SMTP id OAA13634; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:54:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by dnaunix.pa.dec.com; id AA32291; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:53:46 -0700 To: Terry Lambert Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), dfr@nlsystems.com, alpha@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Chris G. Demetriou" Subject: Re: Its arrived In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 22 Jul 97 13:22:19 PDT." <199707222022.NAA13992@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 97 14:53:45 -0700 Message-Id: <32329.869608425@dnaunix.pa.dec.com> X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Other than that, it was not too terrible. I feel inclined to note that users have always been quite welcome to contribute improvements. None have done so. cgd From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jul 22 15:05:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA02104 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:05:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cynic.portal.ca (root@cynic.portal.ca [204.174.36.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA02087 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:05:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([[UNIX: localhost]]) by cynic.portal.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA26736; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:03:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cynic.portal.ca: cjs owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:03:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Curt Sampson To: Terry Lambert cc: Doug Rabson , alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Its arrived In-Reply-To: <199707221757.KAA13621@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Terry Lambert wrote: > I installed the Linux/Alpha microcode diskette on my Alpha when I > first got it from OnSale (several months ago). It was required > for NetBSD. I'd be very suprised if the Linux PALcode works with NetBSD. NetBSD requires the Digital Unix/VMS PALcode. > What microcode does the machine have? That will determine whether > or not you can install NetBSD at all. Since DU is running on them now, NetBSD could be installed. cjs Curt Sampson cjs@portal.ca Info at http://www.portal.ca/ Internet Portal Services, Inc. Through infinite myst, software reverberates Vancouver, BC (604) 257-9400 In code possess'd of invisible folly. From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jul 22 15:10:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA02413 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:10:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA02405 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:10:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA14216; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:06:05 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199707222206.PAA14216@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Its arrived To: cgd@pa.dec.com (Chris G. Demetriou) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:06:05 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, dfr@nlsystems.com, alpha@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <32329.869608425@dnaunix.pa.dec.com> from "Chris G. Demetriou" at Jul 22, 97 02:53:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Other than that, it was not too terrible. > > I feel inclined to note that users have always been quite welcome to > contribute improvements. > > None have done so. I understand; I was not faulting it, I was providing my list (the same one I sent you) of "gotcha's", mostly to *promote* the use of NetBSD instead of DEC's OSF. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jul 22 15:16:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA02759 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:16:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA02752 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:16:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA14230; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:12:42 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199707222212.PAA14230@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Its arrived To: cjs@portal.ca (Curt Sampson) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:12:41 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, dfr@nlsystems.com, alpha@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Curt Sampson" at Jul 22, 97 03:03:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I installed the Linux/Alpha microcode diskette on my Alpha when I > > first got it from OnSale (several months ago). It was required > > for NetBSD. > > I'd be very suprised if the Linux PALcode works with NetBSD. NetBSD > requires the Digital Unix/VMS PALcode. VMS? Not OSF? As far as I know, there is only OSF and NT. Linux requires the OSF. The version of the OSF PAL code that comes with the Alpha Multia boxes with the RedHat Linux CDROM differes from the standard release in that it will operate in only 16M, instead of the standard OSF PAL code, which requires 32M to come up. The PAL code I'm using was originally used in the Linux Alpha port, which was done at the University of Arizona, here in Tuscon (I leave very near the guy who did most of the original Linux Alpha stuff). > > What microcode does the machine have? That will determine whether > > or not you can install NetBSD at all. > > Since DU is running on them now, NetBSD could be installed. DU requires the OSF PAL code. The issue of the NT PAL code is one of licensing for the PAL code. Apparently, DEC wants NT to win over Digital UNIX, and charges a premium for the OSF PAL code to make sure everyone is discouraged from running it. The original argument from the FreeBSD Alpha advocacy was to use the NT PAL code in the FreeBSD port to ensure that the additional licensing fee was not required. The Linux people got a special deal, but there are some interesting restrictions on it. I could type in the relevent portions of the Linux documentation, if I had to, I guess. It boils down to restrictions on use, and on the vendor having bought a one-time distribution license (this is the same vendor who was (is?) selling Multia's through the auctions on www.onslae.com, where I got mine. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jul 22 15:19:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA02836 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebsd.scds.com (scds.ziplink.net [206.15.128.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA02831 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:18:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jseger@localhost) by freebsd.scds.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) id SAA06712 for alpha@freebsd.org; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 18:20:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 18:20:30 -0400 (EDT) From: "Justin M. Seger" Message-Id: <199707222220.SAA06712@freebsd.scds.com> To: alpha@freebsd.org Subject: Donated Alphas Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'm curious, what are the specs on the Alphas that were donated? Thanks, -justin Seger- From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jul 22 17:14:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA09390 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:14:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA09383 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:14:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA14515; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:10:10 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199707230010.RAA14515@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Its arrived To: cjs@portal.ca (Curt Sampson) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:10:10 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, dfr@nlsystems.com, alpha@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Curt Sampson" at Jul 22, 97 03:03:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I installed the Linux/Alpha microcode diskette on my Alpha when I > > first got it from OnSale (several months ago). It was required > > for NetBSD. > > I'd be very suprised if the Linux PALcode works with NetBSD. NetBSD > requires the Digital Unix/VMS PALcode. It does. I can guarantee it, since that is what I've been running the NetBSD on. The only difference in the Linux stuff is that it won't refuse to boot if you only have 16M of memory, instead of the 32M that OSF/1 wants. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jul 22 17:29:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA10508 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:29:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA10503 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA01409; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:25:23 -0700 (PDT) To: "Chris G. Demetriou" cc: Terry Lambert , dfr@nlsystems.com, alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Its arrived In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:53:45 PDT." <32329.869608425@dnaunix.pa.dec.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:25:23 -0700 Message-ID: <1406.869617523@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I feel inclined to note that users have always been quite welcome to > contribute improvements. > > None have done so. To the ALPHA installation procedure? Small wonder, I guess, that since there hasn't been a lot of emphasis put on this area over on your side of the yard. Perhaps we can change that. :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jul 22 17:35:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA10920 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:35:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA10914 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:35:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA01465; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:31:33 -0700 (PDT) To: Terry Lambert cc: cjs@portal.ca (Curt Sampson), dfr@nlsystems.com, alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Its arrived In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:12:41 PDT." <199707222212.PAA14230@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:31:33 -0700 Message-ID: <1461.869617893@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > As far as I know, there is only OSF and NT. AKA "SRM" and "ARC" consoles. > Linux requires the OSF. The version of the OSF PAL code that comes Bzzzt, sorry. Linux actually works best with the ARC console though, if you compile your kernel to support it, it will apparently boot from the SRM console as well. So the correct answer is that Linux will support both ARC and SRM consoles, DUX and *BSD only SRM. Jordan From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jul 22 18:33:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA13973 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 18:33:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.digital.com (mail2.digital.com [204.123.2.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA13966 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 18:33:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dnaunix.pa.dec.com (dnaunix.pa.dec.com [16.4.208.21]) by mail2.digital.com (8.7.5/UNX 1.5/1.0/WV) with SMTP id SAA24424; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 18:29:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by dnaunix.pa.dec.com; id AA32551; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 18:29:01 -0700 To: Terry Lambert Cc: cjs@portal.ca (Curt Sampson), dfr@nlsystems.com, alpha@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Chris G. Demetriou" Subject: Re: Its arrived In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 22 Jul 97 17:10:10 PDT." <199707230010.RAA14515@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 97 18:29:00 -0700 Message-Id: <32530.869621340@dnaunix.pa.dec.com> X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > I installed the Linux/Alpha microcode diskette on my Alpha when I > > > first got it from OnSale (several months ago). It was required > > > for NetBSD. > > > > I'd be very suprised if the Linux PALcode works with NetBSD. NetBSD > > requires the Digital Unix/VMS PALcode. > > It does. I can guarantee it, since that is what I've been running > the NetBSD on. That depends on which platform you're running on, i'd guess. On a multia, i could believe that it works. On other platforms, e.g. eb64+ and eb164 (and other systems of the same systype, of course), I sincerely doubt that it would (because the Linux PALcode didn't implement PAL ops that the "real" OSF1 firmware requires the OS to use to maninipulate interrupt state). cgd From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jul 22 18:55:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA15092 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 18:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brickbat8.mindspring.com (brickbat8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA15087 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 18:55:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bogus.mindspring.com (user-37kbo7q.dialup.mindspring.com [207.69.224.250]) by brickbat8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA12548; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 21:55:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970723015538.00691f60@mindspring.com> X-Sender: kpneal@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 21:55:38 -0400 To: Robin Cutshaw From: "Kevin P. Neal" Subject: Re: Its arrived Cc: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 02:49 PM 7/22/97 -0400, Robin Cutshaw wrote: >On Tue, Jul 22, 1997 at 10:06:24AM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> >> Installing NetBSD would probably not be a bad idea at all, though if >> you're looking for an environment from which to bootstrap your efforts >> (that being why there are 2 drives in those machines with only one >> actually populated :-) then you're probably best off with what you've >> got installed on it right now - Digital UNIX. DUX is a stable >> development platform, it has a decent toolchain (and a compiler which >> generally produces better code that gcc at present) and all the X >> frobs you could possibly want (plus some you probably won't, like CDE :-). Have fun compiling GNU stuff. I ran into no end of troubles, and I no newbie at compiling stuff. > >If you want a *real* stable X, use DUX. I did parts of the Linux-alpha >port and the servers are a real #$%^& to get working. XFree86 is >mostly working now but there are still some glitches here and there. I've got a Sun 3/110 + color monitor, netbooting from a NetBSD/Alpha box. It works fine for me. -- XCOMM Kevin P. Neal, Junior, Comp. Sci. - House of Retrocomputing XCOMM mailto:kpneal@pobox.com - http://www.pobox.com/~kpn/ XCOMM kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu Spoken by Keir Finlow-Bates: XCOMM "Good grief, I've just noticed I've typed in a rant. Sorry chaps!" From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jul 22 23:07:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA26835 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 23:07:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from moon.aa.net (moon.aa.net [204.157.220.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA26830 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 23:07:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miles.aa.net (cust35.max2.seattle.aa.net [205.199.142.35]) by moon.aa.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA14474 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 23:07:07 -0700 X-Intended-For: Received: from miles.aa.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by miles.aa.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id XAA14797 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 23:07:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707230607.XAA14797@miles.aa.net> To: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Its arrived In-reply-to: Message from "Gary Palmer" of "Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:15:10 EDT." <2640.869598910@orion.webspan.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 23:07:27 -0700 From: "Reginald S. Perry" Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Gary" == Gary Palmer writes: Gary> This is something I've heard echoed from Gary> friends. Linux/Alpha is fine for desktop machines that you Gary> can crash regularly, but don't expect it to have long Gary> uptimes. Even tho they hated it, they went back to DUX for Gary> production (they complained about not being able to tune it Gary> enough). This is interesting. If you are running DUX 4.0x, you can use the kernel tune application. I think its called dxkerneltune(r). I always find it by looking in the monitoring/tunning folder in the CDE Application Manager. The app makes available just about every adjustable variable in the kernel. The only think I dont like is that it still requires a reboot for them to take. -Reggie From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jul 23 10:32:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01793 for alpha-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:32:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA01786 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:32:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA15828; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:28:20 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199707231728.KAA15828@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Its arrived To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:28:20 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, cjs@portal.ca, dfr@nlsystems.com, alpha@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <1461.869617893@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jul 22, 97 05:31:33 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Linux requires the OSF. The version of the OSF PAL code that comes > > Bzzzt, sorry. Linux actually works best with the ARC console though, > if you compile your kernel to support it, it will apparently boot from > the SRM console as well. So the correct answer is that Linux will > support both ARC and SRM consoles, DUX and *BSD only SRM. Strange. That's not what the documentation that came with my Linux CDROM that came with the machine along with the PAL code floppy says... Of course, you could be right, and the people who wrote the Linux and the accompanying documentation could be wrong. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jul 23 11:03:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA03479 for alpha-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:03:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA03471 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:03:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA15896; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:57:19 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199707231757.KAA15896@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Its arrived To: cgd@pa.dec.com (Chris G. Demetriou) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:57:19 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, cjs@portal.ca, dfr@nlsystems.com, alpha@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <32530.869621340@dnaunix.pa.dec.com> from "Chris G. Demetriou" at Jul 22, 97 06:29:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > I'd be very suprised if the Linux PALcode works with NetBSD. NetBSD > > > requires the Digital Unix/VMS PALcode. > > > > It does. I can guarantee it, since that is what I've been running > > the NetBSD on. > > That depends on which platform you're running on, i'd guess. > > On a multia, i could believe that it works. > > On other platforms, e.g. eb64+ and eb164 (and other systems of the > same systype, of course), I sincerely doubt that it would (because the > Linux PALcode didn't implement PAL ops that the "real" OSF1 firmware > requires the OS to use to maninipulate interrupt state). This is not PAL code written by the Linux crowd; this is the DEC PAL code diskette that comes with the Multia that comes with Linux. It can't be sold for use with OSF, only with Linux. That's why I've been calling it the Linux PAL code. Has the Linux crowd actually written PAL code? That would be an insane thing for them to do... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jul 23 11:03:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA03542 for alpha-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:03:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA03535 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:03:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA08066; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:00:46 -0700 (PDT) To: Terry Lambert cc: cjs@portal.ca, dfr@nlsystems.com, alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Its arrived In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:28:20 PDT." <199707231728.KAA15828@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:00:46 -0700 Message-ID: <8063.869680846@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Linux requires the OSF. The version of the OSF PAL code that comes > > > > Bzzzt, sorry. Linux actually works best with the ARC console though, > > if you compile your kernel to support it, it will apparently boot from > > the SRM console as well. So the correct answer is that Linux will > > support both ARC and SRM consoles, DUX and *BSD only SRM. > > Strange. That's not what the documentation that came with my > Linux CDROM that came with the machine along with the PAL code > floppy says... > > Of course, you could be right, and the people who wrote the Linux > and the accompanying documentation could be wrong. Could be, and considering that I've always booted Linux using ARC, was told by Maddog & Aspen Systems both to boot from ARC, and see it as the default kernel configuration option (you need to specifically enable the SRM support, go look in the Makefiles for yourself), I'd say that it's a pretty strong possibility that the doc is indeed wrong or you misread it. :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jul 23 11:19:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA04567 for alpha-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:19:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA04560 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA15970; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:14:27 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199707231814.LAA15970@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Its arrived To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:14:27 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, cjs@portal.ca, dfr@nlsystems.com, alpha@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <8063.869680846@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jul 23, 97 11:00:46 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Of course, you could be right, and the people who wrote the Linux > > and the accompanying documentation could be wrong. > > Could be, and considering that I've always booted Linux using ARC, was > told by Maddog & Aspen Systems both to boot from ARC, and see it as > the default kernel configuration option (you need to specifically > enable the SRM support, go look in the Makefiles for yourself), I'd > say that it's a pretty strong possibility that the doc is indeed wrong > or you misread it. :) Heh. "Still, it boots.". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jul 23 13:20:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA11721 for alpha-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:20:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cynic.portal.ca (root@cynic.portal.ca [204.174.36.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA11713 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:20:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([[UNIX: localhost]]) by cynic.portal.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA14784; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:15:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cynic.portal.ca: cjs owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:15:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Curt Sampson Reply-To: Curt Sampson To: Terry Lambert cc: "Chris G. Demetriou" , dfr@nlsystems.com, alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Its arrived In-Reply-To: <199707231757.KAA15896@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Ok, here's the situation as best I know it. First, folks, please note that the console and the PALcode are two separate entities. Each console comes with its own PALcode, but that does not mean that you have to use it for your OS. The SRM console is the `command line' console used with Digital Unix and VMS. That includes the VMS PALcode and the OSF PALcode. (I mistakenly called the latter the DU PALcode; thanks for the correction, Terry.) The ARC console contains the Windows NT PALcode. Some systems, such as the AXPpci33, allow you to have only one console installed at a time. Others, such as the Multia, allow you to have both. You can also, if you really wish, replace the console code with your own code, assuming you have enough details of the machine hardware to do so. On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Terry Lambert wrote: > This is not PAL code written by the Linux crowd; this is the DEC > PAL code diskette that comes with the Multia that comes with Linux. > It can't be sold for use with OSF, only with Linux. That's why I've > been calling it the Linux PAL code. > > Has the Linux crowd actually written PAL code? That would be an insane > thing for them to do... Yes, they have their own PALcode. (I think it's Digital stuff, not stuff they wrote themselves, but they do not use the OSF PALcode.) Check out the sources for MILO (on gatekeeper under /pub/DEC/linux/Miniloader, I think); these include PALcode for various machines. You have to boot with a MILO compiled with the correct PALcode for your system if it's going to work, of course. I don't know what that disk is that you got, but I expect Linux doesn't use the PALcode on it. cjs Curt Sampson cjs@portal.ca Info at http://www.portal.ca/ Internet Portal Services, Inc. Through infinite myst, software reverberates Vancouver, BC (604) 257-9400 In code possess'd of invisible folly.