From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 30 05:31:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA24843 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 30 Mar 1997 05:31:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from main.gbdata.com (USR1-1.detnet.com [207.113.12.26]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA24838 for ; Sun, 30 Mar 1997 05:31:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gclarkii@localhost) by main.gbdata.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA15292 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 30 Mar 1997 07:31:57 -0600 (CST) From: Gary Clark II Message-Id: <199703301331.HAA15292@main.gbdata.com> Subject: Re: Anyone else seen this? (fwd) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 07:31:57 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (In chat now) In message <199703280601.BAA14311@dyson.iquest.net> "John S. Dyson" writes: : > : > Does this give you something to chew on, John Dyson? : > : That is exactly the kind of info that is useful for : investigation, John Polstra :-). Are both of you from Grover's Mill New Jersey by chance? "John" Losh ROFL Gary -- Gary Clark II (N5VMF) | I speak only for myself and "maybe" my company gclarkii@GBData.COM | Member of the FreeBSD Doc Team Providing Internet and ISP startups - http://WWW.GBData.com for information FreeBSD FAQ at ftp://ftp.FreeBSD.ORG/pub/FreeBSD/docs/FAQ.latin1 From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 30 06:50:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA26970 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 30 Mar 1997 06:50:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from vector.jhs.no_domain (slip139-92-4-168.mu.de.ibm.net [139.92.4.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA26964; Sun, 30 Mar 1997 06:50:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from vector.jhs.no_domain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vector.jhs.no_domain (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA07335; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 09:42:35 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199703270842.JAA07335@vector.jhs.no_domain> To: mike allison cc: FreeBSD-chat@freebsd.org, "Jeffery T. White" Subject: Re: named From: "Julian H. Stacey" Reply-To: "Julian H. Stacey" X-Email: jhs@freebsd.org, Fallback: jhs@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de X-Organization: Vector Systems Ltd. X-Mailer: EXMH 1.6.7, PGP available X-Address: Holz Strasse 27d, 80469 Munich, Germany X-Tel: Phone +49.89.268616, Fax +49.89.2608126, Data +49.89.26023276 X-Web: http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 25 Mar 1997 22:20:18 MST." <3338B212.752C9086@konnections.com> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 09:42:34 +0100 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Reference: > From: mike allison > > Jeffery, > I don't know where you'd submit it for FreeBSD, but I'd like a blurb on > this with the setup code/script to publish in Free Systems Journal. Is that an (A) free by qualification, paid by adverts mag. or a (B) real money to receive mag ? if (A) I'd like to fill in a form :-) Julian -- Julian H. Stacey jhs@freebsd.org http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 30 07:35:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA28466 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 30 Mar 1997 07:35:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA28453 for ; Sun, 30 Mar 1997 07:35:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.4/8.6.9) id KAA01034; Sun, 30 Mar 1997 10:33:46 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199703301533.KAA01034@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Anyone else seen this? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199703301331.HAA15292@main.gbdata.com> from Gary Clark II at "Mar 30, 97 07:31:57 am" To: gclarkii@main.gbdata.com (Gary Clark II) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 10:33:46 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > (In chat now) > > In message <199703280601.BAA14311@dyson.iquest.net> "John S. Dyson" writes: > : > > : > Does this give you something to chew on, John Dyson? > : > > : That is exactly the kind of info that is useful for > : investigation, John Polstra :-). > > Are both of you from Grover's Mill New Jersey by chance? > > "John" Losh > I am kind-of confused here :-). What does the Grover's Mill reference mean? FYI, I grew up in Indy and have lived here most of my life (modulo living and/or working in Chicago for a while.) Off/on for the last 13yrs I have worked at AT&T either as a contractor or employee. Things that I have done in my career: 1977-1995 on employee or contract basis: Building automation/energy mgmt system used at UofI in Champaign/Urbana, Dominick's food stores (they installed a new system some years ago though), etc. 1984-1997 on employee and/or contract basis: AT&T... Videotex terminals (1984-1987), (1986) I wrote a U**X clone for a PC class 68K machine, fleet management system (vehicle location) (1987-1988), HDTV white paper and review (part of the initial AT&T HDTV effort (my predictions have so far come true :-).) (1988-1989.) Chief systems engineer: satellite video distribution project, in conjunction with a large media company, including working the issues of studio facilities, launch facilities, satellites, consumer equipment, etc... Found to be a little too early technologically, but the system that we were considering had many of the same quality features of the current DSS stuff. (1989-1990.) (1990-1992) ISDN based home multi-BRI "PBX", incl B channel data type system. Conceptual immediate precursor to the small ISDN router box technology, but with full local and CO voice features (in many ways, the box was much more advanced than the ISDN routers with voice capabilities due to the advanced multi-BRI and full voice capabilies with both ISDN T interface sets and POTS sets.) My last project was forward looking work, internet related (no further details are appropriate to publically release :-).) (Note that we used FreeBSD as the biggest part of the networking infrastructure in the internet related project.) Alas, note that the projects that I worked on were in some cases, leading the industry by years :-). Of course, we didn't follow through due to the technology being too avant-garde... :-(. We had many of the things that I have worked on at AT&T actually working, almost ready for product (except for the HDTV and DSS thingie)!!! Satellites are expensive to play with :-). I still work for AT&T and not Lucent (even though I still have both valid AT&T and Lucent badges.) My management at work encourages my FreeBSD involvement. John From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 30 09:01:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA01621 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 30 Mar 1997 09:01:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from Pkrw.tcn.net (Pkrw.tcn.net [199.166.4.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA01613; Sun, 30 Mar 1997 09:01:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (krw@localhost) by Pkrw.tcn.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA04106; Sun, 30 Mar 1997 12:04:25 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Pkrw.tcn.net: krw owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 12:03:57 -0500 (EST) From: "Kenneth R. Westerback" To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG cc: Gary Clark II , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anyone else seen this? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199703301533.KAA01034@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I think the Grover's Mill reference is from Buckaroo Bonzai, wherein the evil aliens from the 9th dimension landed on earth at Grover's Mill New Jersey on Halloween 193?, the date of Orson Wells War of Worlds broadcast. They all took names 'John xxx', e.g. John Smallberries, John Bigboote (that's BigBootAY!). ---- Ken On Sun, 30 Mar 1997, John S. Dyson wrote: > > (In chat now) > > > > In message <199703280601.BAA14311@dyson.iquest.net> "John S. Dyson" writes: > > : > > > : > Does this give you something to chew on, John Dyson? > > : > > > : That is exactly the kind of info that is useful for > > : investigation, John Polstra :-). > > > > Are both of you from Grover's Mill New Jersey by chance? > > > > "John" Losh > > > I am kind-of confused here :-). What does the Grover's Mill > reference mean? [snip] From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 30 10:02:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA03979 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 30 Mar 1997 10:02:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA03970; Sun, 30 Mar 1997 10:02:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from castle (root@ip201.konnections.com [192.41.71.201]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id LAA06157; Sun, 30 Mar 1997 11:02:09 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <333FFAE3.7D3D22FD@konnections.com> Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 10:56:51 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Kenneth R. Westerback" CC: dyson@freebsd.org, Gary Clark II , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Anyone else seen this? (fwd) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk That anyone knows this sorta stuff is very scary....... : -} -Mike Kenneth R. Westerback wrote: > > I think the Grover's Mill reference is from Buckaroo Bonzai, wherein the > evil aliens from the 9th dimension landed on earth at Grover's Mill New > Jersey on Halloween 193?, the date of Orson Wells War of Worlds broadcast. > They all took names 'John xxx', e.g. John Smallberries, John Bigboote > (that's BigBootAY!). > > ---- Ken > From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 30 13:08:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA12692 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 30 Mar 1997 13:08:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from main.gbdata.com (USR1-1.detnet.com [207.113.12.26]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA12680; Sun, 30 Mar 1997 13:08:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gclarkii@localhost) by main.gbdata.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA17291; Sun, 30 Mar 1997 15:07:38 -0600 (CST) From: Gary Clark II Message-Id: <199703302107.PAA17291@main.gbdata.com> Subject: Re: Anyone else seen this? (fwd) To: mallison@konnections.com (mike allison) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 15:07:38 -0600 (CST) Cc: krw@tcn.net, dyson@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <333FFAE3.7D3D22FD@konnections.com> from mike allison at "Mar 31, 97 10:56:51 am" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk mike allison wrote: > That anyone knows this sorta stuff is very scary....... > > : -} > > -Mike > > Kenneth R. Westerback wrote: > > > > I think the Grover's Mill reference is from Buckaroo Bonzai, wherein the > > evil aliens from the 9th dimension landed on earth at Grover's Mill New ^^^ 8TH!!!! > > Jersey on Halloween 193?, the date of Orson Wells War of Worlds broadcast. > > They all took names 'John xxx', e.g. John Smallberries, John Bigboote > > (that's BigBootAY!). > > > > ---- Ken > > There are ALOT of Buckaroo Banzai fans on the lists here... Gary -- Gary Clark II (N5VMF) | I speak only for myself and "maybe" my company gclarkii@GBData.COM | Member of the FreeBSD Doc Team Providing Internet and ISP startups - http://WWW.GBData.com for information FreeBSD FAQ at ftp://ftp.FreeBSD.ORG/pub/FreeBSD/docs/FAQ.latin1 From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 30 13:41:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA14758 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 30 Mar 1997 13:41:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA14742; Sun, 30 Mar 1997 13:40:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from castle (root@ip201.konnections.com [192.41.71.201]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id OAA08522; Sun, 30 Mar 1997 14:40:07 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <33402DF7.3FC0E70C@konnections.com> Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 14:34:47 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gary Clark II CC: krw@tcn.net, dyson@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Anyone else seen this? (fwd) References: <199703302107.PAA17291@main.gbdata.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Oh, As long as it's JUST Buckaroo Banzai..... With the odd Apocalypse Now reference measured in..... I assume that's 'fan' as in 'fanatic'.... : -> -Mike Gary Clark II wrote: > > mike allison wrote: > > That anyone knows this sorta stuff is very scary....... > > > > : > > Kenneth R. Westerback wrote: > > > > > > I think the Grover's Mill reference is from Buckaroo Bonzai, wherein the > > > evil aliens from the 9th dimension landed on earth at Grover's Mill > > > ---- Ken > > > > > There are ALOT of Buckaroo Banzai fans on the lists here... > > Gary > From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 30 19:49:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA11265 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 30 Mar 1997 19:49:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from gw.research.megasoft.com (gw.research.megasoft.com [206.230.35.93]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA11260 for ; Sun, 30 Mar 1997 19:49:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by gw.research.megasoft.com (8.7.5/8.7.3-cmcurtin) id WAA07068; Sun, 30 Mar 1997 22:46:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from goffette.research.megasoft.com(192.168.1.2) by gw.research.megasoft.com via smap (V1.3) id sma007066; Sun Mar 30 22:46:48 1997 Received: (from cmcurtin@localhost) by goffette.research.megasoft.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA01974; Sun, 30 Mar 1997 22:48:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 22:48:15 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199703310348.WAA01974@goffette.research.megasoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: C Matthew Curtin To: Sean Eric Fagan Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SPAM -- Aren't you the person....? (fwd) Newsgroups: kithrup.freebsd.chat In-Reply-To: <199703280712.XAA02532@kithrup.com> References: <27919.859223994@time.cdrom.com> <199703280450.XAA25347.kithrup.freebsd.chat@goffette.research.megasoft.com> <199703280712.XAA02532@kithrup.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.22 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid X-Face: "&>g(&eGr?u^F:nFihL%BsyS1[tCqG7}I2rGk4{aKJ5I_5A\*6RYn4"N.`1pPF9LO!Fa<(gj:12)?=uP2l01e10Gij"7j&-)torL^iBrNf\s7PDLm=rf[PjxtSbZ{J(@@j"q2/iV9^Mx>>>> "Sean" == Sean Eric Fagan writes: Sean> 4. Lastly, learn who to complain to, and about. Complaining to Sean> AGIS about Cyber Promotions will do no good -- AGIS does not Sean> care. No doubt because it's still worth their while to carry CyberPromo. If enough people bitch -- by calling on the phone, sending email to real, live people (i.e., not the NOC), and making a stink, there HAS to be some point at which they'll say "it's not worth it." I personally have been recently making much more liberal use of the phone than I have in the past. This, of course, means that I end up coughing up some bucks (I can't often find toll-free numbers to use), but it isn't *that* much, and I really like asking people things like "so, what you're telling me, essentially, is that as long as it's economically viable, you're perfectly willing to contribute to the destruction of the 'net?" Some places give me a runaround, but I have been getting increasingly tenacious with these people as well. I don't have any problems going after names (even if I have to pretend to be a potential customer in order to get 'em), and if calls to the office become ineffective, calls to their home will come next. Further, there are a few people who are so out of control that I'm giving consideration to posting everything I know about these yahoos to appropriate newsgroups. As an FYI, of course. I feel it necessary to point out that although I am "tenacious" in my dealings with these idiots, I'm careful to make sure that a significant streach would have to be made in order to call it "harassment." -- Matt Curtin Chief Scientist Megasoft, Inc. cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com http://www.research.megasoft.com/people/cmcurtin/ I speak only for myself Hacker Security Firewall Crypto PGP Privacy Unix Perl Java Internet Intranet From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 31 17:30:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA26718 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 17:30:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA26712 for chat; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 17:30:45 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199704010130.RAA26712@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Error installing pine-3.96 (fwd) To: chat Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 17:30:45 +6400 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> "Lee Crites (AEI)" wrote > > I have two decades of computer experience. I've done just about > > everything once (and some things I don't want to admit to more than once > > -- anyone need a cobol programmer anymore?) > > Lots of people, actually - cobol programmers are going to make > a fortune these next few months in turning all those "PIC(2) YEAR" > statements into "PIC(4) YEAR" for the Y2000 problem. :-) Jordan does COBOL! A new movie starring Courtney Love and Howard Stern ;) jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 31 18:47:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA02105 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 18:47:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA02097; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 18:47:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from castle (root@ip208.konnections.com [192.41.71.208]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id TAA00343; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 19:47:17 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3341C776.6BFA0761@konnections.com> Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 19:41:58 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" CC: chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Error installing pine-3.96 (fwd) References: <199704010130.RAA26712@freefall.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hey, if that's all the COBOL you need to know, sign me up..... and my dog, and the monkey.... we want to get in on this..... And I thought I'd have to buy a book...... : -} -Mike Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > >> "Lee Crites (AEI)" wrote > > > I have two decades of computer experience. I've done just about > > > everything once (and some things I don't want to admit to more than once > > > -- anyone need a cobol programmer anymore?) > > > > Lots of people, actually - cobol programmers are going to make > > a fortune these next few months in turning all those "PIC(2) YEAR" > > statements into "PIC(4) YEAR" for the Y2000 problem. :-) > > Jordan does COBOL! > > A new movie starring Courtney Love and Howard Stern ;) > jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 31 21:22:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA10613 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 21:22:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA10600; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 21:22:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA13844; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 21:22:26 -0800 (PST) To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Error installing pine-3.96 (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 31 Mar 1997 17:30:45." <199704010130.RAA26712@freefall.freebsd.org> Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 21:22:26 -0800 Message-ID: <13841.859872146@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Jordan does COBOL! > > A new movie starring Courtney Love and Howard Stern ;) Naw, I want to see Winona Ryder as Ada Lovelace and Mickey Rourke as a libidinous, tormented Charles Babbage. :-) And I taught cobol for 2 years. Don't remind me, OK? Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 31 22:03:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA12458 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 22:03:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA12446; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 22:03:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from castle (root@ip208.konnections.com [192.41.71.208]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id XAA03034; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 23:02:27 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3341F533.5D68610E@konnections.com> Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 22:57:07 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Error installing pine-3.96 (fwd) References: <13841.859872146@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I always thought of Mickey Rourke as a "Charlie".....as they both lie in each other's arms and Charlie is tormented over and over by Ada's words... "What's the difference Charlie?, What's the difference...the difference.... dif-er-ence......" Then Charlie rushes off to the lab. (Where Jordan is busily programming the difference engine in COBOL) -Mike Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > Jordan does COBOL! > > > > A new movie starring Courtney Love and Howard Stern ;) > > Naw, I want to see Winona Ryder as Ada Lovelace and Mickey Rourke as a > libidinous, tormented Charles Babbage. :-) > > And I taught cobol for 2 years. Don't remind me, OK? > > Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 1 14:32:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA08007 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 14:32:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA08000 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 14:32:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA09779; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:29:06 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:29:06 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199704012229.PAA09779@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), proff@suburbia.net, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Internal clock In-Reply-To: <199704012206.PAA12178@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199704012051.NAA05487@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199704012206.PAA12178@phaeton.artisoft.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.22 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ moved to -chat ] Terry Lambert writes: > > Software 'engineering' is something I spent significant time studying, > > and no matter how good you are maintenance makes up 90% of the 'time' > > spent on code for most projects. One could argue that the entire > > FreeBSD project is doing 'maintenance' on the CSRG code tree. > > I'm not disagreeing, I'm just saying that maintenance time should be > front-loaded by breaking the problem into cleanly divisable component > areas, etc.. Easier said that done Kemosabe'. If we all knew exactly what the code was going to be used for, had all the knowledge we had going into the project that we have at the backend, and how the market was going to change we'd all be richer than Bill Gates. The wave of the hand and simple answers simply doesn't cut it, just like my silly example below. > > Really, the issue of putting a man on Mars is designing a good space > > ship, not actually building the darn ship. And, if we design the space-ship correctly, it'll solve all of our transportation problems since a space-ship is just a special purpose 'transportation' device. So, if we break the problem up into cleanly divisable component areas, it'll affect *all* vehicles we design from that point on, then all of our transportation problems will go away. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 1 15:11:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA11158 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:11:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA11148 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:11:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA12314; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:53:31 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704012253.PAA12314@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Internal clock To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:53:31 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nate@mt.sri.com, proff@suburbia.net, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704012229.PAA09779@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Apr 1, 97 03:29:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Software 'engineering' is something I spent significant time studying, > > > and no matter how good you are maintenance makes up 90% of the 'time' > > > spent on code for most projects. One could argue that the entire > > > FreeBSD project is doing 'maintenance' on the CSRG code tree. > > > > I'm not disagreeing, I'm just saying that maintenance time should be > > front-loaded by breaking the problem into cleanly divisable component > > areas, etc.. > > Easier said that done Kemosabe'. If we all knew exactly what the code > was going to be used for, had all the knowledge we had going into the > project that we have at the backend, and how the market was going to > change we'd all be richer than Bill Gates. And BETA is better than VHS, but BETA lost. Doing the technically corect thing is a necessary, but not a sufficient, condition for achieving riches. I know that this might seem astonishingly naieve, but... why don't you just *ASK* what the code needs to be capable of doing, and use that as a design requirements document, and measure your designs against whether they meet the line items on the requirements doc or not? It also seems to me that if we can simply decide to define "the backend" as "now", we would have a good shot at having all of the knowledge that we needed to have to get to the current situation. And then we just build the best design for "now", ignoring historical baggage, with an eye towards making it as generally extensible as we are able, and *hope* that works for two years down the road. And if it *doesn't* work for two years down the road, repeat the process of "successive approximation" until we get there (the Newtonian method is well known because it works, not because it had good PR). > The wave of the hand and simple answers simply doesn't cut it, just like > my silly example below. > > > > Really, the issue of putting a man on Mars is designing a good space > > > ship, not actually building the darn ship. > > And, if we design the space-ship correctly, it'll solve all of our > transportation problems since a space-ship is just a special purpose > 'transportation' device. So, if we break the problem up into cleanly > divisable component areas, it'll affect *all* vehicles we design from > that point on, then all of our transportation problems will go away. This is a strawman; you are comparing unequal levels of abstraction to try to make your point. If we realize up front that a spaceship is just a special purpose transportation device, then we should be designing the spaceship so that it will fit into a general transportation framework. We do *NOT* expect the spaceship to solve all our transportation problems. We *DO* expect that any spaceship we design should fit in with a forseeable, from what we know of the general classification "transportation problem", transportation framework, which includes, but is not limited to, spaceships. And that said framework will act as a common basis for soloutions which *WILL*, in combination, solve all our transportation problems. In other words, we have to focus on the big picture, which is where we want to be eventually, not what brush fires we need to put out today. Brush fires are a distraction, and people who are distracted by them should be put to work putting them out instead of planning, since it is hard to shovel dirt while in a blind panic and see into the future at the same time (that's why it's called a "blind panic"). The absolute worst case is that we forsee and build the wrong framework, and have to redo the framework and the outside shell of the spaceship -- and a spaceship is made up of many more things which make it a spaceship than its outside shell, most of which we will be able to reuse. At least we will then be able to consider the soloution of transporation problems in the abstract, and won't look at every new transportation problem as something which can be solved with misapplied spaceships because all we have is spaceships and no framework for thinking about anything else. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 1 15:19:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA11821 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:19:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA11792 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:19:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA10113; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 16:15:46 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 16:15:46 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199704012315.QAA10113@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), proff@suburbia.net, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Internal clock In-Reply-To: <199704012253.PAA12314@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199704012229.PAA09779@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199704012253.PAA12314@phaeton.artisoft.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.22 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > I'm not disagreeing, I'm just saying that maintenance time should be > > > front-loaded by breaking the problem into cleanly divisable component > > > areas, etc.. > > > > Easier said that done Kemosabe'. If we all knew exactly what the code > > was going to be used for, had all the knowledge we had going into the > > project that we have at the backend, and how the market was going to > > change we'd all be richer than Bill Gates. > > And BETA is better than VHS, but BETA lost. > > Doing the technically corect thing is a necessary, but not a sufficient, > condition for achieving riches. Huh? What *are* you talking about? I was talking about 'easier said than done', not 'doing it because it should be done.' One is an issue of time/resources, the other is NOT. > I know that this might seem astonishingly naieve, but... why don't you > just *ASK* what the code needs to be capable of doing, and use that as > a design requirements document, and measure your designs against whether > they meet the line items on the requirements doc or not? Second, not many people know *what* is needed, and those that do have completely different ideas on *what* is important/cool/bloat. Sesign by commitee doesn't work. > > The wave of the hand and simple answers simply doesn't cut it, just like > > my silly example below. > > > > > > Really, the issue of putting a man on Mars is designing a good space > > > > ship, not actually building the darn ship. > > > > And, if we design the space-ship correctly, it'll solve all of our > > transportation problems since a space-ship is just a special purpose > > 'transportation' device. So, if we break the problem up into cleanly > > divisable component areas, it'll affect *all* vehicles we design from > > that point on, then all of our transportation problems will go away. > > > This is a strawman; you are comparing unequal levels of abstraction > to try to make your point. No, I'm taking something that's arguably as complex as the 'kernel we all want to have' and applying it to something that is equally complex. You make wide sweeping generalities that sound good on paper, but when the rubber hits the road simply don't work. I've been programming long enough that when my screen starts turning brown that Terry's walking in it again, and it's time to inject a little reality back into the picture. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 1 15:27:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA12613 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:27:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from antares.aero.org (antares.aero.org [130.221.192.46]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA12601; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:27:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from anpiel.aero.org (anpiel.aero.org [130.221.196.66]) by antares.aero.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA00827; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:26:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from anpiel.aero.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by anpiel.aero.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA25708; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 13:43:56 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199704012143.NAA25708@anpiel.aero.org> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Error installing pine-3.96 (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 31 Mar 1997 21:22:26 PST." <13841.859872146@time.cdrom.com> Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 13:43:56 -0800 From: "Mike O'Brien" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan sez: > Naw, I want to see Winona Ryder as Ada Lovelace and Mickey Rourke as a > libidinous, tormented Charles Babbage. :-) No way Jose. Lori Singer as the dedicated, brilliant Ada Lovelace, and Jon Pertwee as the irascible but loveable Charles Babbage...or maybe William Hartnell. Mike O'Brien From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 1 15:59:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA15485 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:59:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA15480 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:59:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA12413; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 16:42:29 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704012342.QAA12413@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Internal clock To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 16:42:28 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nate@mt.sri.com, proff@suburbia.net, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704012315.QAA10113@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Apr 1, 97 04:15:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Easier said that done Kemosabe'. If we all knew exactly what the code > > > was going to be used for, had all the knowledge we had going into the > > > project that we have at the backend, and how the market was going to > > > change we'd all be richer than Bill Gates. > > > > And BETA is better than VHS, but BETA lost. > > > > Doing the technically corect thing is a necessary, but not a sufficient, > > condition for achieving riches. > > Huh? What *are* you talking about? I was talking about 'easier said > than done', not 'doing it because it should be done.' One is an issue > of time/resources, the other is NOT. You were attributing "We'd all be richer than Bill Gates" to having preknowledge, implying that there isn't a formula that you can follow to get the same results. > > I know that this might seem astonishingly naieve, but... why don't you > > just *ASK* what the code needs to be capable of doing, and use that as > > a design requirements document, and measure your designs against whether > > they meet the line items on the requirements doc or not? > > Second, not many people know *what* is needed, and those that do have > completely different ideas on *what* is important/cool/bloat. Sesign by > commitee doesn't work. What if that committee is named "core"? 8-p. This isn't "design by committee", it's "requirements by committee". The design can be done by anyone who's willing to meet the requirements with a design. Generally, a *individual*, not the committee. > > > And, if we design the space-ship correctly, it'll solve all of our > > > transportation problems since a space-ship is just a special purpose > > > 'transportation' device. So, if we break the problem up into cleanly > > > divisable component areas, it'll affect *all* vehicles we design from > > > that point on, then all of our transportation problems will go away. > > > > > > This is a strawman; you are comparing unequal levels of abstraction > > to try to make your point. > > No, I'm taking something that's arguably as complex as the 'kernel we > all want to have' and applying it to something that is equally complex. > You make wide sweeping generalities that sound good on paper, but when > the rubber hits the road simply don't work. I've been programming long > enough that when my screen starts turning brown that Terry's walking in > it again, and it's time to inject a little reality back into the > picture. The sentence to which the "Mars" example owes its existance is: ] Really, the issue is one of designing good kernel interfaces, not the ] software that plugs into them. Which is about the way in which pieces of the kernel are permitted to fit together, not about the designs of the individual pieces. In particular, my example was the need to repeatedly change the device driver code being a result of changing kernel interfaces, and not of the devie driver itself mutating into unusability. Software does not mutate. The same class of idea can be extended to note the X.25 and ISO networking code falling through the cracks because the person who changed the interface only changed the interface for those modules using the interface which he found "interesting". It's not that the code itself no longer works, it's that the framework was changed without also changing the framework expectations in the "old" code. If we have an interface definition, it should be robust against this type of change, or it is not a good interface definition. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 1 16:12:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA16508 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 16:12:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA16497 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 16:12:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA10516; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:08:50 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:08:50 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199704020008.RAA10516@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), proff@suburbia.net, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Internal clock In-Reply-To: <199704012342.QAA12413@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199704012315.QAA10113@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199704012342.QAA12413@phaeton.artisoft.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.22 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > Easier said that done Kemosabe'. If we all knew exactly what the code > > > > was going to be used for, had all the knowledge we had going into the > > > > project that we have at the backend, and how the market was going to > > > > change we'd all be richer than Bill Gates. > > > > > > And BETA is better than VHS, but BETA lost. > > > > > > Doing the technically corect thing is a necessary, but not a sufficient, > > > condition for achieving riches. > > > > Huh? What *are* you talking about? I was talking about 'easier said > > than done', not 'doing it because it should be done.' One is an issue > > of time/resources, the other is NOT. > > You were attributing "We'd all be richer than Bill Gates" to having > preknowledge, implying that there isn't a formula that you can follow > to get the same results. [ drags his old beat up stool out of the shed, sticks a piece of wheat between my teeth, and starts to speak with a slow Southern drawl... ] *old-timer-advice-mode-on* As my pappy used to say, you can have *anything* you want in life, you just can't have *everything* you want. So, if you want to be as rich as Bill Gates, you can be. But, in the process you will probably also be as despised as he is, because in the path to get there he stepped on alot of people, offended most of his early partners, and basically gave up on having a 'normal' life/family. Sure, you can have that if you want, but you have to give up alot of other things you want in life. *old-timer-advice-mode-off* You can have anything you want Terry, you just can't have everything. You want everything, and I'm sorry to be the one that breaks it to you but it ain't gonna happen. > Software does not mutate. You've never been involved with 'Real' software projects then, and again are showing your ignorance of how the real world does things. When you gonna enter the real world? Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 1 16:23:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA17650 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 16:23:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA17629 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 16:23:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA12505; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:05:54 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704020005.RAA12505@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Internal clock To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:05:54 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nate@mt.sri.com, proff@suburbia.net, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704020008.RAA10516@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Apr 1, 97 05:08:50 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > *old-timer-advice-mode-on* > > As my pappy used to say, you can have *anything* you want in life, you > just can't have *everything* you want. So, if you want to be as rich as > Bill Gates, you can be. But, in the process you will probably also be > as despised as he is, because in the path to get there he stepped on > alot of people, offended most of his early partners, and basically gave > up on having a 'normal' life/family. > > Sure, you can have that if you want, but you have to give up alot of > other things you want in life. > > *old-timer-advice-mode-off* > > You can have anything you want Terry, you just can't have everything. > You want everything, and I'm sorry to be the one that breaks it to you > but it ain't gonna happen. Who said I wanted to be as rich as Bill Gates? You were the one putting forth "as rich as Bill Gates" as a measure of success or failure of a given approach to solving a particular problem. > > Software does not mutate. > > You've never been involved with 'Real' software projects then, and again > are showing your ignorance of how the real world does things. > > When you gonna enter the real world? When you send me one of your nifty CDROMs where the bits apparently change over time (how does you-all get 'way with callin' dem "ROMs"?). It's the responsibility of the person who implements the new kernel interface to make code which uses the old kernel interface continue to work. If the interface is clean, even if it's out-dated, the conversion should be trivial. See my "pee in the public pool" analogy, or, if you need it, I can provide a "toybox" or "vomit" analogy as a replacement. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 1 16:34:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA18676 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 16:34:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA18671 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 16:34:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA10694; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:30:46 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:30:46 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199704020030.RAA10694@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), proff@suburbia.net, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Internal clock In-Reply-To: <199704020005.RAA12505@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199704020008.RAA10516@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199704020005.RAA12505@phaeton.artisoft.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.22 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert writes: > > *old-timer-advice-mode-on* > > > > As my pappy used to say, you can have *anything* you want in life, you > > just can't have *everything* you want. So, if you want to be as rich as > > Bill Gates, you can be. But, in the process you will probably also be > > as despised as he is, because in the path to get there he stepped on > > alot of people, offended most of his early partners, and basically gave > > up on having a 'normal' life/family. > > > > Sure, you can have that if you want, but you have to give up alot of > > other things you want in life. > > > > *old-timer-advice-mode-off* > > > > You can have anything you want Terry, you just can't have everything. > > You want everything, and I'm sorry to be the one that breaks it to you > > but it ain't gonna happen. > > Who said I wanted to be as rich as Bill Gates? You were the one > putting forth "as rich as Bill Gates" as a measure of success or > failure of a given approach to solving a particular problem. No, I said that if you had fore-knowledge of all the necessary requirements for a project *before* you finished it, you'd be as rich as Bill Gates. Your reply was: > You were attributing "We'd all be richer than Bill Gates" to having > preknowledge, implying that there isn't a formula that you can follow > to get the same results. Since I don't believe even you think a person can have intimate fore-knowledge of what someone intends to do with a piece of software, I took it that you wanted to a formula to follow so you could be as rich as Bill, since the former is so out of touch w/reality that you couldn't possibly be thinking it. > > > Software does not mutate. > > > > You've never been involved with 'Real' software projects then, and again > > are showing your ignorance of how the real world does things. > > > > When you gonna enter the real world? > > When you send me one of your nifty CDROMs where the bits apparently > change over time (how does you-all get 'way with callin' dem "ROMs"?). Bits on a piece of plastic aren't software, any more than molecules of metal makes something a 'car'. They may have things in common, but don't lump them together. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 1 17:28:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA22014 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:28:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA22005 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:28:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id SAA12652; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 18:10:58 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704020110.SAA12652@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Internal clock To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 18:10:58 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nate@mt.sri.com, proff@suburbia.net, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704020030.RAA10694@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Apr 1, 97 05:30:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Since I don't believe even you think a person can have intimate > fore-knowledge of what someone intends to do with a piece of software, I > took it that you wanted to a formula to follow so you could be as rich > as Bill, since the former is so out of touch w/reality that you couldn't > possibly be thinking it. You plan to allow as close to "any reasonable use" as you can, and when it falls down againsts someone's "reasonable use", you correct it. It's not a matter of knowing how someone will use it, it's a matter of not closing off possible uses through poor design considerations. There is a world of difference between the two... one is "I didn't think of your use" and the other is "I didn't think of any use other than my own". > > > > Software does not mutate. > > Bits on a piece of plastic aren't software, any more than molecules of > metal makes something a 'car'. They may have things in common, but > don't lump them together. I like to think of it like Newton's laws, applied to software: 1) Programs once operational will remain operational unless acted upon by a programmer or bad data. 2) The speed at which a program may become non-operational is directly proportional to the amount of programmer activity and/or bad data, and inversely propotional to the size of the original program. 3) Every time you change a library routine or interface, you break the programs that depend on the previous behaviour. In this case, the first and third laws. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 1 17:41:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA23464 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:41:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA23442; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:41:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id LAA25195; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 11:10:11 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199704020140.LAA25195@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Error installing pine-3.96 (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199704012143.NAA25708@anpiel.aero.org> from Mike O'Brien at "Apr 1, 97 01:43:56 pm" To: obrien@antares.aero.org (Mike O'Brien) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 11:10:11 +0930 (CST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, jmb@freefall.freebsd.org, chat@freefall.freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mike O'Brien stands accused of saying: > Jordan sez: > > Naw, I want to see Winona Ryder as Ada Lovelace and Mickey Rourke as a > > libidinous, tormented Charles Babbage. :-) > > No way Jose. Lori Singer as the dedicated, brilliant Ada > Lovelace, and Jon Pertwee as the irascible but loveable Charles > Babbage...or maybe William Hartnell. Sorry to break the news, but Jon Pertwee is dead. Or were you just going to take old Dr Who footage and use that Plan 9-style? TBH if you want a 'Doctor' figure, Tom Baker would be better. "Damn, fourteen divided by seven is _not_ five and three jelly babies!". > Mike O'Brien -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 1 21:38:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA07335 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 21:38:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA07320 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 21:38:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id WAA00257; Tue, 1 Apr 1997 22:39:01 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 22:39:01 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199704020539.WAA00257@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Nate Williams CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Internal clock In-Reply-To: <199704012229.PAA09779@rocky.mt.sri.com> References: <199704012051.NAA05487@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199704012206.PAA12178@phaeton.artisoft.com> <199704012229.PAA09779@rocky.mt.sri.com> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nate Williams writes: > And, if we design the space-ship correctly, it'll solve all of our > transportation problems since a space-ship is just a special purpose > 'transportation' device. So, if we break the problem up into cleanly > divisable component areas, it'll affect *all* vehicles we design from > that point on, then all of our transportation problems will go away. Exactly. Kind of like SDI rail gun experimentation leading to light rail systems powered by continuous linear magentic motors. ;^) I seem to have this inability to *not* jump into these wild discussions between Nate and Terry. It's like picking a scab -- it's gross, but you just can't *not* do it. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 2 10:33:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA14995 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:33:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA14988; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:33:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from castle (root@ip205.konnections.com [192.41.71.205]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id LAA28121; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 11:31:18 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3343F635.4D3E2CA3@konnections.com> Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 11:25:57 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Smith CC: "Mike O'Brien" , jkh@time.cdrom.com, jmb@freefall.freebsd.org, chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Error installing pine-3.96 (fwd) References: <199704020140.LAA25195@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Okay, here it is: Tom Cruise as Jordan, Michael J Fox as Babbage and Sharon Stone as ADA. -Mike Michael Smith wrote: > > Mike O'Brien stands accused of saying: > > Jordan sez: > > > Naw, I want to see Winona Ryder as Ada Lovelace and Mickey Rourke as a > > > libidinous, tormented Charles Babbage. :-) > > > > No way Jose. Lori Singer as the dedicated, brilliant Ada > > Lovelace, and Jon Pertwee as the irascible but loveable Charles > > Babbage...or maybe William Hartnell. > > Sorry to break the news, but Jon Pertwee is dead. Or were you just going > to take old Dr Who footage and use that Plan 9-style? > > TBH if you want a 'Doctor' figure, Tom Baker would be better. "Damn, > fourteen divided by seven is _not_ five and three jelly babies!". > > > Mike O'Brien > > -- > ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ > ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ > ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ > ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ > ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 2 10:46:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA15680 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:46:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA15675 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:46:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from castle (root@ip205.konnections.com [192.41.71.205]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id LAA28246; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 11:43:52 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3343F926.5BA1B96E@konnections.com> Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 11:38:30 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert CC: Nate Williams , proff@suburbia.net, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Internal clock References: <199704020110.SAA12652@phaeton.artisoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Since I don't believe even you think a person can have intimate > > fore-knowledge of what someone intends to do with a piece of software, > You plan to allow as close to "any reasonable use" as you can, and > when it falls down againsts someone's "reasonable use", you correct > it. > > It's not a matter of knowing how someone will use it, it's a matter > of not closing off possible uses through poor design considerations. It's not so much a matter or reasonable use, but reasonable use within a set of established parameters. If you run into soething that wasn't planned for, but later think might be reasonable, AND won't work. You must decide whether it's important enough to rebuild the whole system or move on. I think we've seen that too often since MSDOS 1.0, System 7, OS/2 and all the proprientary minicomputer systems. The implementation team has to decide what's reasonable and what hooks to leave in. The later programmers are charged with using those hooks and not building something into their application which damages other apps through poor or irresponsible programming. I think that's Terry's point in "design considerations". The Linux folks have the problem of EVERYONE being part of the design team. It win't be long before there are SERIOUS and INHERENT incompatabilities between different distributions of the same LINUX release. That's why you have and must use the core team to set the parameters. You're never going to be able to anticipate what's even reasonable. The design team DICTATES what's reasonable on their system. -Mike From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 2 10:59:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA16317 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:59:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA16301 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:58:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA14074; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 11:40:29 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704021840.LAA14074@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Internal clock To: mallison@konnections.com (mike allison) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 11:40:29 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nate@mt.sri.com, proff@suburbia.net, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3343F926.5BA1B96E@konnections.com> from "mike allison" at Apr 3, 97 11:38:30 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > It's not a matter of knowing how someone will use it, it's a matter > > of not closing off possible uses through poor design considerations. > > It's not so much a matter or reasonable use, but reasonable use within a > set of established parameters. If you run into soething that wasn't > planned for, but later think might be reasonable, AND won't work. You > must decide whether it's important enough to rebuild the whole system or > move on. I think we've seen that too often since MSDOS 1.0, System 7, > OS/2 and all the proprientary minicomputer systems. The implementation > team has to decide what's reasonable and what hooks to leave in. The > later programmers are charged with using those hooks and not building > something into their application which damages other apps through poor > or irresponsible programming. Yes. One historical problem DOS has always faced is an unwillingness to fix something because of historical compatability issues. Those compatability issues derive from the original design being NP incomplete and therefore people "routed around the damage". Effectively, their design is screwed now because it was screwed then. Luckily(?) FreeBSD has very little in the way of users who have routed around damage, and are therefore dependent on FreeBSD keeping historical crap for marketing rather than technical reasons. This is most likely attributable to FreeBSD being a protected mode OS, more than to any good planning on FreeBSD's part. Take luck where you find it, I say. > I think that's Terry's point in "design considerations". The Linux > folks have the problem of EVERYONE being part of the design team. It > win't be long before there are SERIOUS and INHERENT incompatabilities > between different distributions of the same LINUX release. > > That's why you have and must use the core team to set the parameters. > You're never going to be able to anticipate what's even reasonable. The > design team DICTATES what's reasonable on their system. Yes. By seperating the "requirements" from the "implementation", you get the widest possible range of uses, while limiting the number of people stirring the pot. As in cooking, taking everything you have which tastes good and putting it in one pot and baking it will not result in something which tastes good. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 2 12:04:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA20260 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:04:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA20254 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:04:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from castle (root@ip205.konnections.com [192.41.71.205]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id NAA29056; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 13:00:50 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <33440B30.72826FF4@konnections.com> Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 12:55:28 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert CC: nate@mt.sri.com, proff@suburbia.net, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Internal clock References: <199704021840.LAA14074@phaeton.artisoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert wrote: > > Yes. By seperating the "requirements" from the "implementation", you > get the widest possible range of uses, while limiting the number of > people stirring the pot. The only real problem is if you have a shitty design team, in which case your OS is going to have other, more serios problems anyway. If you don't trust the design team to anticipate properly, get a new team or find a new project going your way. -Mike From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 2 12:42:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA22733 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:42:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA22727 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:42:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from castle (root@ip205.konnections.com [192.41.71.205]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id NAA00101; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 13:40:10 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <33441469.17282C38@konnections.com> Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 13:34:49 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nate Williams CC: Terry Lambert , proff@suburbia.net, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Internal clock References: <199704012051.NAA05487@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199704012206.PAA12178@phaeton.artisoft.com> <199704012229.PAA09779@rocky.mt.sri.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nate Williams wrote: > > Terry Lambert writes: > > > Really, the issue of putting a man on Mars is designing a good space > > > ship, not actually building the darn ship. > > And, if we design the space-ship correctly, it'll solve all of our > transportation problems since a space-ship is just a special purpose > 'transportation' device. So, if we break the problem up into cleanly > divisable component areas, it'll affect *all* vehicles we design from > that point on, then all of our transportation problems will go away. > I have to disagree in the sense of design supra building. I think design is fine, but there has to be the ability to follow and implement the design during its life. We sit here joking about Charlie Babbage but his designs, albeit excellent and workable, philosophically, were not practicable and weren't for decades. Look at the space program. Now I don't know JS about NASA, but I know we got to the moon on Tube Technology. The design was right and the tools we're adequate for the job. Newton and Galileo (however you spell it) might have DESIGNED us to the moon, but it took the technology to make it happen. No problems were solved until that ship left the ground. {well, that's not true. The desigh theories led to many other useful things building up to the event. The automobile has parts of probably every invention and discovery known to man all rolled up in one package....) Designing a solution means that POTENTIALLY, all of our transportation problems go away.... -Mike From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 2 13:21:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA25370 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 13:21:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA25356 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 13:21:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA11554 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 23:21:19 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA25131; Wed, 2 Apr 1997 23:03:21 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970402230321.XK21664@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 23:03:21 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Code maintenance References: <19970402211157.WU57156@uriah.heep.sax.de> <199704022010.NAA14311@phaeton.artisoft.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199704022010.NAA14311@phaeton.artisoft.com>; from Terry Lambert on Apr 2, 1997 13:10:26 -0700 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Terry Lambert wrote: > If the end of ft is coming on that fast, then we must be nearing > the time when we can delete all support for non-PnP ISA machines. No. The end of the so-called ``PnP'' ISA will be before this. :-) It's a dead-born child. If you want PnP, go PCI. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 3 12:50:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA15351 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 12:50:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA15343 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 12:50:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id WAA27320 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 22:50:39 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA29996; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 22:24:35 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970403222435.RU38267@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 22:24:35 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: I've survived make world. References: <199704031541.KAA04665@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> <199704031550.KAA03814@hda.hda.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199704031550.KAA03814@hda.hda.com>; from Peter Dufault on Apr 3, 1997 10:50:34 -0500 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Peter Dufault wrote: > I have no X-server as I have no monitor on that system. I'll start > it up later and see what happens. Hehe. Now tell this to a Windows user... :-)) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 4 02:29:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA00857 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 02:29:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from murkwood.gaffaneys.com (dialup15.gaffaneys.com [134.129.252.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA00852 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 02:29:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from zach@localhost) by murkwood.gaffaneys.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA02084; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 04:30:41 -0600 (CST) From: Zach Heilig Message-ID: <19970404043040.38326@murkwood.gaffaneys.com> Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 04:30:40 -0600 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Spring sucks (really :-) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.68 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It's flood time again along the Red River (the northern one, not the one in Texas). If anyone is curious where all the snow goes when it melts, check our newspapers web page(s): http://www.gfherald.com/news/floodwatch.htm http://www.gfherald.com/news/flood/eyes.htm http://www2.grand-forks.k12.nd.us/webcam/ http://www.pol.org/floodcam They expect the river to rise to between 47.5 and 49 feet. I think that's above the river bottom, "normal" height is around 13 feet, flood stage is around 28 feet. The ironic thing is the worst recorded flood happened in the spring of 1897 (water was over 50 feet). Last year, the water got to 45.85 feet, and they had to close one bridge (water was flowing around it on both sides). Had the river gotten to 46 feet, they would have closed the bridge shown in the 3rd url given above. There was about a 1 or 2 inch clearance between the water and the middle of the bridge when I bothered to go look at it (both ends were submerged to about halfway between the bottom of the bridge and the road). Yes, I will be having fun later this month when the water does get up... [ fortunately, the water would have to hit almost 60 feet to reach my house; but by then, the entire surrounding area would be completely submerged, so I probably wouldn't be caring much, and definately not bragging :-) ]. -- Zach Heilig (zach@blizzard.gaffaneys.com) | ALL unsolicited commercial email /var/spool/news is 110% full, | is unwelcome. I avoid dealing please delete all the spam you can. | with companies that email ads. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 4 04:52:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA06136 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 04:52:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from python.shoal.net.au (andrew@python.shoal.net.au [203.26.44.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA06127 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 04:52:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (andrew@localhost) by python.shoal.net.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA22496 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 22:52:32 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 22:52:32 +1000 (EST) From: Andrew Perry To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: spam (yes again) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ok, just got the god botherer spam again (nothing against god botherers, just god botherers who bother me!) send mail to abuse@ibm.net and abuse@ix.netcom.com am i missing anything? is this enough? ps: if just one person responds and says that they are sick of me bleating about the subject i'll shut up about it Andrew Perry andrew@shoal.net.au From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 4 07:23:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA13082 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 07:23:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from ingenieria ([168.176.15.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA12836 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 07:19:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co by ingenieria (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA22761; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 10:06:04 -0500 Message-ID: <33454584.39D4@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 10:16:36 -0800 From: Pedro Giffuni X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freeBSD.org Subject: BSD's Mascot Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Howdy, I read some time ago that the "deamons" used by BSD were not so devilish after all. The term deamon , in it's latin roots, refers to a higher power, good or bad. In UNIX it is recognized that there are good and bad deamons. I have a clear understanding that FreeBSD is not related in anyway to evil or devils, but probably our mascot will not gain acceptance in certain countries where religious issues are really important (Israel, Iran, Irak...). I just saw this M$ banner (hope it was copied well): http://www.netcraft.com/cgi-bin/Survey/forward.cgi?id=860164991&url=/ads/msft/mar/zakc.gif It is too optimistic, but is Microsoft referring to BSD's mascot? Perhaps the CD cover should make clear we are not evil, but anyway there's also a an email message going around (author unknown) that can help draw more interesting conclusions: _________ If you add the ASCII numbers corresponding to Bill Gates' name, that is B,66; I,73; L,76; L,76; G,71; A,65; T,84; E,69; S,83 and a 3 (His complete second name is Gates III) it all adds 666 (the number of the beast). Other famous terms: MS DOS 6.21 77+83+45+68+79+83+32+54 = 666 Windows 95 87+73+78+68+79+87+83+57+53+1 = 666 _________ Be afraid, be very afraid... --Pedro From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 4 07:37:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA14163 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 07:37:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA14153 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 07:37:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by who.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id HAA20148 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 07:37:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with UUCP id RAA01419 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:31:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) id RAA13671; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:23:46 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970404172345.35087@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:23:45 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: [lauraw@unidial.com: FW: Spam] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=EVF5PPMfhYS0aIcm X-Mailer: Mutt 0.67 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk --EVF5PPMfhYS0aIcm Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii SUCCESS ... One spammer less ;-) If you get an e-mail from him, then you know know his provider and his e-mail address ;-)) -- andreas@klemm.gtn.com /\/\___ Wiechers & Partner Datentechnik GmbH Andreas Klemm ___/\/\/ Support Unix -- andreas.klemm@wup.de pgp p-key http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html >>> powered by <<< ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/Printing/aps-491.tgz >>> FreeBSD <<< --EVF5PPMfhYS0aIcm Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Description: Forwarded message from Laura Wilkins Return-Path: Received: (from uucp@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with UUCP id RAA13649 for andreas@klemm.gtn.com; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:20:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.unidial.com (mail.unidial.com [206.112.1.5]) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with ESMTP id WAA16766 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 22:58:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from lwilkin.UNIVERSE ([204.126.120.185]) by mail.unidial.com (NTR*NET 2.1.0) with SMTP id PAA12662 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 15:58:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by lwilkin.UNIVERSE with Microsoft Mail id <01BC4047.864425C0@lwilkin.UNIVERSE>; Thu, 3 Apr 1997 15:55:59 -0500 Message-ID: <01BC4047.864425C0@lwilkin.UNIVERSE> From: Laura Wilkins To: "'andreas@klemm.gtn.com'" Subject: FW: Spam Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 15:55:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ---------- From: Laura Wilkins Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 1997 11:21 AM To: 'askew@unidial.com' Cc: 'antonio@qualcomm.com' Subject: Spam Dear Mr. Askew: We have received a complaint about your advertising of a free review = entitled Providing Internet Success introductory ISP offer via unsolicited email. = I would like to take this opportunity to remind you that mass = unsolicited electronic mailing is in direct contradiction with the terms = and conditions that you agreed to when applying for your Internet = service with UniDial. Number 14 of UniDial's terms and conditions states, "Use of any = unsolicited distribution lists in electronic mail or other mass unsolicited = electronic mailing, commonly referred to as spamming, may be used as just cause for = termination of this agreement by UniDial." Spamming is in violation of our terms and conditions and will not be = tolerated by anyone using our service. If this situation persists, UniDial will = have no=20 choice but to discontinue your Internet service. We are asking for your = cooperation in putting an end to this situation. Thank you in advance for your cooperation in this matter --EVF5PPMfhYS0aIcm-- From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 4 09:03:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA19635 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 09:03:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA19624; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 09:03:22 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199704041703.JAA19624@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: spam (yes again) To: andrew@python.shoal.net.au (Andrew Perry) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 09:03:21 -0800 (PST) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Perry" at Apr 4, 97 10:52:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Andrew Perry wrote: > > ok, just got the god botherer spam again > > (nothing against god botherers, just god botherers who bother me!) god botherer? spam is the work of devil worshippers. jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 4 09:38:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA21329 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 09:38:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA21271; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 09:36:06 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199704041736.JAA21271@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: BSD's Mascot To: pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co (Pedro Giffuni) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 09:36:06 -0800 (PST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <33454584.39D4@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> from "Pedro Giffuni" at Apr 4, 97 10:16:36 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Pedro Giffuni wrote: > > Howdy, > I read some time ago that the "deamons" used by BSD were not so devilish > after all. The term deamon , in it's latin roots, refers to a higher > power, good or bad. In UNIX it is recognized that there are good and bad > deamons. > I have a clear understanding that FreeBSD is not related in anyway to > evil or devils, but probably our mascot will not gain acceptance in > certain countries where religious issues are really important (Israel, > Iran, Irak...). wont be a problem amnong the mainstream Orthodox Jews in either Israel, the US or Europe. i cant speak for the other groups, or for the Bible Belt of the US. > B,66; I,73; L,76; L,76; G,71; A,65; T,84; E,69; S,83 and a 3 (His > complete second name is Gates III) it all adds 666 (the number of the > beast). Other famous terms: > MS DOS 6.21 77+83+45+68+79+83+32+54 = 666 > Windows 95 87+73+78+68+79+87+83+57+53+1 = 666 well i guess that confirms what i suspected all along. ;) playing(?) with sums formed from letters is a very old practice. in hebrew every letter is also a number so no translation table is required. the sequence for the letters runs 1, 2, 3, ... 9, 10, 20, ... 100, 200, 300, 400. no 0. 400 is the last leter of the alphabet (alef bet, are the first two letters of the alphabet[a]) numbers larger than 400 are fomed by repeating 400, etc...well i guess that i have rambled enough. jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 4 09:50:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA22522 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 09:50:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA22390 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 09:49:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id UAA11921; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 20:49:44 +0300 (EEST) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 20:49:43 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Pedro Giffuni cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD's Mascot In-Reply-To: <33454584.39D4@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Pedro Giffuni wrote: > Howdy, > I read some time ago that the "deamons" used by BSD were not so devilish > after all. The term deamon , in it's latin roots, refers to a higher > power, good or bad. In UNIX it is recognized that there are good and bad > deamons. Well, they are actually spelled daemons :-) Or so some are telling :-) Sander [snip - Poor Bill and his evil software] > > --Pedro > From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 4 12:08:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA00759 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 12:08:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from xmission.xmission.com (softweyr@xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA00754 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 12:08:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from softweyr@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) id NAA25239; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 13:07:04 -0700 (MST) From: Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC Message-Id: <199704042007.NAA25239@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: BSD's Mascot To: narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee (Narvi) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 13:07:03 -0700 (MST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Narvi" at Apr 4, 97 08:49:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Well, they are actually spelled daemons :-) Or so some are telling :-) Has anyone else noticed that a Ferengi ship captain is addressed as "daemon"??? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 4 13:52:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA05970 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 13:52:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA05953 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 13:52:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA01640; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 13:51:31 -0800 (PST) To: Pedro Giffuni cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD's Mascot In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 04 Apr 1997 10:16:36 PST." <33454584.39D4@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 13:51:31 -0800 Message-ID: <1637.860190691@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I read some time ago that the "deamons" used by BSD were not so devilish > after all. The term deamon , in it's latin roots, refers to a higher > power, good or bad. In UNIX it is recognized that there are good and bad > deamons. Greg Lehey has a synopsis of this in his book. Indeed, they're not devlish. > evil or devils, but probably our mascot will not gain acceptance in > certain countries where religious issues are really important (Israel, > Iran, Irak...). I can live with that. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 4 14:42:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA08294 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 14:42:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA08258 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 14:41:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from castle (root@ip197.konnections.com [192.41.71.197]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id PAA04679; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 15:39:41 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3346D36A.2E5F7DE4@konnections.com> Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 15:34:18 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: Pedro Giffuni , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD's Mascot References: <1637.860190691@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Free and Open computing is about offering a part of yourself for acceptance and free change/exchange with others. A part of that and a large part of UNIX is understanding the puns and wordplay within the system. As said before a demon (or daemon) can be good or evil. Their intention in UNIX is for good, but often they are the focal point of frustration. Although the word 'demon' goes back to the 16th or possibly the 15th century, it wwasn't until the late 17th and beginning of the 18th century, roughly 1640 - 1706 that the word truely came to denote an 'evil spirit'. "In Homer, there is scarcely any distinction between gods and daemons" -GROTE. "O' Anthony, Thy Daemon, that thy sirit which keeps thee, is Noble, Couragious, high unmatchable..." Anthoony & Cleopatra II.iii.19 If anyone is so narrow that they cannot accept the humor and wit which accompanies a system, and read something DEEP and DARK into that, well maybe they have bigger problems than which SCSI adapter to buy..... -Mike Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > I read some time ago that the "deamons" used by BSD were not so devilish > > after all. The term deamon , in it's latin roots, refers to a higher > > power, good or bad. In UNIX it is recognized that there are good and bad > > deamons. > > Greg Lehey has a synopsis of this in his book. Indeed, they're not > devlish. > > > evil or devils, but probably our mascot will not gain acceptance in > > certain countries where religious issues are really important (Israel, > > Iran, Irak...). > > I can live with that. :-) > > Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 4 14:57:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA09464 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 14:57:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA09336; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 14:55:55 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199704042255.OAA09336@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: BSD's Mascoth To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 14:55:55 -0800 (PST) Cc: pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <1637.860190691@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Apr 4, 97 01:51:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > evil or devils, but probably our mascot will not gain acceptance in > > certain countries where religious issues are really important (Israel, > > Iran, Irak...). > > I can live with that. :-) > ahhhh...the, jordan, let me introduce you some of my southern baptist relatives in northern loiusiana (yea, there really are people in a called northern loiusiana).....they KNOW what to do people that consort with beelzebub. no dou't 'bout dat. ;> jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 4 15:22:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA10684 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 15:22:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from carlton.innotts.co.uk (root@carlton.innotts.co.uk [194.176.128.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA10679 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 15:22:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [194.176.130.66] (serialB01.innotts.co.uk [194.176.130.66]) by carlton.innotts.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA10722; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 00:20:34 +0100 (BST) X-Sender: robmel@mailhost.innotts.co.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3346D36A.2E5F7DE4@konnections.com> References: <1637.860190691@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 00:20:32 +0100 To: mike allison , "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Robin Melville Subject: Re: BSD's Mascot Cc: Pedro Giffuni , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by freefall.freebsd.org id PAA10680 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 11:34 pm +0100 5/4/97, mike allison wrote: >... a >large part of UNIX is understanding the puns and wordplay within the >system. ummm, well, a daemon is a daemon because it works invisibly -- ie. not connected to a terminal -- "The ghost within the machine". This has nothing to do with goodness, badness, or indifference. The BSD mascot is (and has, judging by a previous correspondent on this list) only likely to play havoc with the sensitivities of extremist Christians. Which only goes to show that even the cuddliest of images will upset someone, and that evil is in the eye of the beholder.... Rob. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 4 15:46:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA11581 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 15:46:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from python.shoal.net.au (andrew@python.shoal.net.au [203.26.44.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA11572 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 15:46:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (andrew@localhost) by python.shoal.net.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA24329 for ; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 09:46:41 +1000 (EST) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 09:46:41 +1000 (EST) From: Andrew Perry To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Thank you for your report (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Isn't this beautiful! :-) Andrew Perry andrew@shoal.net.au ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 08:57:18 -0800 From: Netcom Abuse Department To: andrew@python.shoal.net.au Subject: Thank you for your report Hello, Thank you for your report. We have disabled this account (mpierce4@ix.netcom.com sending email as rein777@flash.net), and will not reenable it until we are certain the account holder understands Netiquette and Netcom policy. Jason NETCOM Policy Management Group --------------------------------------------------------------------- NETCOM On-Line Communication Services, Inc. Abuse Department 24-Hour Technical Support: (408) 881-1810 abuse@netcom.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 4 17:41:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA15055 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:41:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from antares.aero.org (antares.aero.org [130.221.192.46]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA15047 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:41:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from anpiel.aero.org (anpiel.aero.org [130.221.196.66]) by antares.aero.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA14262; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:41:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from anpiel.aero.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by anpiel.aero.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA04337; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:41:06 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199704050141.RAA04337@anpiel.aero.org> To: Andreas Klemm cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [lauraw@unidial.com: FW: Spam] In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 04 Apr 1997 07:23:45 PST." <19970404172345.35087@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 17:41:06 -0800 From: "Mike O'Brien" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Why in the world did the Unidial person CC the vice-president of Qualcomm? From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 4 21:15:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA21457 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 21:15:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from ingenieria ([168.176.15.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA21449 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 21:15:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co by ingenieria (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id AAA24932; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 00:01:41 -0500 Message-ID: <3346095E.6705@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 00:12:14 -0800 From: Pedro Giffuni X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" CC: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD's Mascoth References: <199704042255.OAA09336@freefall.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > > evil or devils, but probably our mascot will not gain acceptance in > > > certain countries where religious issues are really important (Israel, > > > Iran, Irak...). > > > > I can live with that. :-) > > > > ahhhh...the, jordan, let me introduce you some of my southern > baptist relatives in northern loiusiana (yea, there really are > people in a called northern loiusiana).....they KNOW what to > do people that consort with beelzebub. no dou't 'bout dat. > > ;> Well...an image of the Ayatollah crying out "SATAN BUSH", and ..why not "SATAN BILL" comes naturally in my mind with this discussion :-). Pedro. > jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 4 21:30:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA21959 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 21:30:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from ingenieria ([168.176.15.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA21954 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 21:30:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co by ingenieria (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id AAA24948; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 00:16:51 -0500 Message-ID: <33460CEC.B90@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 00:27:24 -0800 From: Pedro Giffuni X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mike allison CC: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD's Mascot References: <1637.860190691@time.cdrom.com> <3346D36A.2E5F7DE4@konnections.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk mike allison wrote: > > If anyone is so narrow that they cannot accept the humor and wit which > accompanies a system, and read something DEEP and DARK into that, well > maybe they have bigger problems than which SCSI adapter to buy..... > Just for the record, this "daemon" (this time it's right?) thing came after a series of coincidences. First someone asked me about our mascot (I refer to it as "the daemon previously known as Chuck"), Then the 666 add on the local newspaper, And then the subliminal Microsoft banner saying "Buy no Evil...Download no Evil"... Are we becoming important enough as to worry Microsoft or is Bill trying to to hide his real nature by pointing somewhere else? :-) --Pedro. > -Mike > > Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > > I read some time ago that the "deamons" used by BSD were not so devilish > > > after all. The term deamon , in it's latin roots, refers to a higher > > > power, good or bad. In UNIX it is recognized that there are good and bad > > > deamons. > > > > Greg Lehey has a synopsis of this in his book. Indeed, they're not > > devlish. > > > > > evil or devils, but probably our mascot will not gain acceptance in > > > certain countries where religious issues are really important (Israel, > > > Iran, Irak...). > > > > I can live with that. :-) > > > > Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 4 22:10:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA23132 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 22:10:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA23127 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 1997 22:10:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with UUCP id IAA12376; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 08:02:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) id HAA05030; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 07:19:20 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970405071920.45443@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 07:19:20 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: "Mike O'Brien" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [lauraw@unidial.com: FW: Spam] References: <19970404172345.35087@klemm.gtn.com> <199704050141.RAA04337@anpiel.aero.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.67 In-Reply-To: <199704050141.RAA04337@anpiel.aero.org>; from Mike O'Brien on Fri, Apr 04, 1997 at 05:41:06PM -0800 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Apr 04, 1997 at 05:41:06PM -0800, Mike O'Brien wrote: > Why in the world did the Unidial person CC the vice-president > of Qualcomm? Don't know ... -- andreas@klemm.gtn.com /\/\___ Wiechers & Partner Datentechnik GmbH Andreas Klemm ___/\/\/ Support Unix -- andreas.klemm@wup.de pgp p-key http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html >>> powered by <<< ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/Printing/aps-491.tgz >>> FreeBSD <<< From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 5 05:49:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA09485 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 05:49:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from tyger.inna.net (root@tyger.inna.net [206.151.66.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA09480 for ; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 05:49:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from caught.inna.net (caught.inna.net [206.151.66.7]) by tyger.inna.net (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA28946; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 08:50:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 08:49:38 -0500 (EST) From: Thomas Arnold To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Pedro Giffuni , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD's Mascot In-Reply-To: <1637.860190691@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I read some time ago that the "deamons" used by BSD were not so devilish > > after all. The term deamon , in it's latin roots, refers to a higher > > power, good or bad. In UNIX it is recognized that there are good and bad > > deamons. > > Greg Lehey has a synopsis of this in his book. Indeed, they're not > devlish. Urm... If anyones gonna even THINK about worrying about our OS's mascot being red with horns and a pitchfork... and worried about it being called a daemon. Might we also want to rewrite every reference in the manpages as well as tons of source comments and indeed even many standard NAMES that contain the word Daemon? Hell, for that matter, read some of the Microsoft NT Docs. They even refer to daemons as daemons. If someones gonna get wound up over Chuckie they're gonna go through the ROOF when they find an ENTIRE SATANIC Operating System... [ this said with tongue firmly planted in cheek ] Hopefully we wont degenerate into a Political Correctness discussion... what the hell would we name man pages??? +-----------------------------------------------+ : Tom Arnold - No relation to Rosanne : : SysAdmin/Pres - TBI, Ltd ( inna.net ) : : The Middle Peninsula's Internet Connection : +-----------------------------------------------+ From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 5 08:50:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA16223 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 08:50:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [192.41.71.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA16218 for ; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 08:50:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from castle (root@ip215.konnections.com [192.41.71.215]) by mail.konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id JAA15683; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 09:49:55 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3347D2ED.638325A6@konnections.com> Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 09:44:29 -0700 From: mike allison Organization: Publisher -- Burning Eagle Book Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Breaking the lkm DISPATCH macro References: <4365.860244136@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > That brings up a very good point, which is that we need to start > thinking about contacting vendors when we do stuff which will cause > their stuff to break. I realize that everyone can't keep track of > every single commercial product available for FreeBSD (not that it's > exactly *hard* right now though :) and its dependencies, so all I'm > asking is that if a user (like Doug here) raises an advance concern or > we start getting bug reports from our early BETA customers WRT some > commercial product, that should raise a *really big red flag* with us. Jordan: Does FreeBSD have a "registry" for commercial vendors? Some way that you can broadcast or post announcements on specific changes/potential changes that they can test and plan for for the next release? As you siad, there may well be a time that some "Killer App" may be so important to users that development might have to consider it's viability BEFORE changes are made. I realize that vendors have a responsibility, but as long as their aware of the changes (whether compatibility is guaranteed or not) then we can all work better together. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 5 11:55:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA24310 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 11:55:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA24303 for ; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 11:55:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA05236; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 11:55:17 -0800 (PST) To: mike allison cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Breaking the lkm DISPATCH macro In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 06 Apr 1997 09:44:29 PDT." <3347D2ED.638325A6@konnections.com> Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 11:55:17 -0800 Message-ID: <5233.860270117@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Does FreeBSD have a "registry" for commercial vendors? Some way that Except for the commercial pages, no. If someone were to start keeping such a registry, I wouldn't complain though! :) Jordan