From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 00:31:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA00800 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 00:31:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from agora.rdrop.com (root@agora.rdrop.com [199.2.210.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA00791 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 00:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA25455 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 00:04:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA11948; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 00:03:27 -0700 (PDT) To: "Joel N. Weber II" cc: garycorc@idt.net, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Complaining at Warner Brothers? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 15 Jun 1997 01:04:56 EDT." <199706150504.BAA09987@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 00:03:27 -0700 Message-ID: <11944.866358207@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > It seems to me that this is a place where you could benefit significantly > if Netscape were free in terms of freedom and not merely price. > > (In other words, if Netscape used something like GPL or BSD license, > you could actually fix this instead of complaining.) Uh huh. Well, go ahead and suggest it to them - I'm not stopping you. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 08:17:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA13474 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 08:17:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obiwan.psinet.net.au (adrian@for.a.good.time.call.adrian.austnet.org [203.19.28.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA13468 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 08:17:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by obiwan.psinet.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA08522; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:56:15 +0800 (WST) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:56:14 +0800 (WST) From: Adrian Chadd To: Julian Jenkins cc: The Classiest Man Alive , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FREEBSD ON TELEVISION PROGRAM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, Julian Jenkins wrote: > > Of course, I still envy her for having her own Unix workstation to play > > around on at home. I'd never have been prepared for such an emergency > > without FreeBSD at home. :-) > > Well her grandfather was a mad billionaire. This apparently had some side > benifits. I'd love the source to that filemanager. Along with the source to that extra-funky 3D tank game you get. MMmmm.. first thing I do when I get my hands on an Indy is to play bztank :) SGI don't give out source for those things, do they? Any chance we could actually GET the source to play with, as I think some cool stuff like that would be .. well.. cool. :) Adrian -- Adrian Chadd | "Unix doesn't stop you from doing | stupid things because that would | stop you from doing clever things" From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 10:27:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA18170 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 10:27:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.logic.it (gal.logic.it [195.120.151.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA18165 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 10:27:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [195.120.151.21] by gal.logic.it (NTMail 3.02.12) with ESMTP id wa209946 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:25:24 +0200 Received: by dumbwinter.ecomotor.it (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0wdJ3r-00004jC; Sun, 15 Jun 97 19:25 MET DST Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:25:55 +0200 (MET DST) From: Marco Molteni X-Sender: molter@dumbwinter.ecomotor.it To: Adrian Chadd cc: "Victor A. Sudakov" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [moved to chat] On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, Adrian Chadd wrote: > Well, basically in my eyes it boils down to this: > > * We (ISP's) are out to provide a service to people, and make money. > * In order to make money we have to cater for the majority of the market, > unless of course the minority want to pay us huge amounts of money :) > * The majority of users use a Microsoft-based OS, so the ISP which caters > for the Microsoft-based OS, no matter how whacky Microsoft twist TCP/IP, > PPP, or whatever into.. will be making the most money. Sad, but surely true. > Get UNIX into the homes is what I say. Dress it up, make it easy to use, > make it pretty, make it do what people want. Once its out there, and its > gained some popularity, people WILL start writing more applications for > it. I agree when you say "make it do what people want". But, IMHO, the problem lays in the "make it easy to use" part. I don't think Unix is for dummies. Unix is Unix. Hard at the beginning, but when you know it, you can do whatever you want with it, IF you know C, IF you know what IPC is, IF you know networking, IF ... This is what I like about it, it is an OS for real men ;-) (hey, this *doesn't* mean I like the obscure parts of it ;-) If I'm suggesting a configuration change of your system, I can simply say: "modify /etc/fstab and put the line ...", I don't have to say: "fire up your GUI, double click on the icon you find on the bottom left of the second display ...." Surely, I do love the X window system, but I'm glad I can fix my Unix box from a dumb terminal on the other end of the planet. I don't think Unix can be made the OS of choice for the casual user, because to achieve this goal you (probably) have to distort the philosophy behind it. I think everybody wanting to seriously learn Unix has to love computers, has to have the right attitude at it and has to find the time to learn it. --- Marco Molteni Computer Science student at the Universita' di Milano, Italy. "You can't trust code that you did not totally create yourself. (Especially code from companies that employ people like me)." Ken Thompson, 1983 Turing Award Lecture. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 12:47:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA22801 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 12:47:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA22796 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 12:47:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA02240 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 12:47:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706151947.MAA02240@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 to: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Plugin? (Re: Complaining at Warner Brothers? ) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 14 Jun 1997 21:04:28 PDT." <11003.866347468@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 12:47:34 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Does anyone out there know or have the source for a netscape plugin? Just want to try out amaya's plugin functionality. Tnks, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 16:21:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA00575 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 16:21:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA00567 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 16:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id TAA14966; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:21:13 -0400 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:21:13 -0400 Message-Id: <199706152321.TAA14966@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: molter@logic.it CC: adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au, vas@vas.tomsk.su, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: (message from Marco Molteni on Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:25:55 +0200 (MET DST)) Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> * We (ISP's) are out to provide a service to people, and make money. >> * In order to make money we have to cater for the majority of the market, >> unless of course the minority want to pay us huge amounts of money :) >> * The majority of users use a Microsoft-based OS, so the ISP which caters >> for the Microsoft-based OS, no matter how whacky Microsoft twist TCP/IP, >> PPP, or whatever into.. will be making the most money. > Sad, but surely true. Yes, but I can't say that we (the Unix community) haven't been guilty of the same behaviour. For example: * According to the RFC, rlogin should send a terminal type from the 'Assigned Numbers' list. Unix rlogin, however, invariably sends $TERM, whatever it may be. Other OS's simply have to cope. * All SMTP, NNTP, etc, etc servers must recognize a newline as a line terminator, despite the fact that the proper line terminator is a CRLF. Now, with the diversity of Unices out there, and since the Internet has been Unix-dominated for several years, we have kept up the compatibility goal of the Internet. However, we haven't been as faithful to inter-OS compatibility as we would like to pretend. Mind you, we have been a lot better than Billy Boy, but not pristine either. >> Get UNIX into the homes is what I say. Dress it up, make it easy to use, >> make it pretty, make it do what people want. Once its out there, and its >> gained some popularity, people WILL start writing more applications for >> it. > I agree when you say "make it do what people want". But, IMHO, the > problem lays in the "make it easy to use" part. I disagree. It *is* possible to make good, easy-to-use interfaces over Unix. Let's look at NeXT for an excellent example. (Pedants, don't start. I'll say that the NeXT runs a Unix clone for simplicity; it's similar enough to not make a difference.) It had a wonderful user interface, even for system configuration. Your average user could do all of his average user-type things and never see a shell prompt, or have to ask the local guru for help. Let's look at a profile of J. Random Luser and his interface requirements in the modern OS world, shall we? Now, remember, I'm not profiling you or me. I'm profiling the average computer store customer who is trying to decide whether to install Win95 or BSD on his new computer. Having spent most of my time in either computer retail and repair or technical support, I feel fairly confident in most of these assessments. (Speaking of support, I'm going to ignore that issue and concentrate instead on things having to do with the OS itself.) * Goals (roughly by importance) ** Lack of need for documentation J. Random Luser hates to read, and doesn't understand computer terms. Manuals are intimidating and boring to J. Random Luser, so it doesn't matter if we have happy wonderful hypertext interfaces to extensive, clear docs, because JRL already has a prejudice against docs. ** Ease of installation What was the most common complaint against Win95 when it was released? "I couldn't get it to install properly." "I had to install it three times to get it to work." "It didn't recognize my hardware." If J. Random Luser trys to install an OS but becomes confused and fails to install it properly, he will become frusturated and switch over to another OS, before even logging in once. First impressions are the most important, guys. ** Ability to get things done People buy on emotion, but must justify their actions internally. When I was selling computers, I would first make the person feel happy and comfortable about the shop, their computer shopping, and the computer I wanted them to buy. (This would be the computer that best fit their needs; I do believe in happy long-term customers.) Next, however, I would have to help them justify to themselves why they bought that computer. It is the same with an OS. Even though 80% of the people who purchase a computer (and OS) today don't know what they want to do with it, they still must be able to perform their tasks. Things such as bookkeeping, word processing, etc. * Requisites (in no particular order) ** Complete graphical user interface J. Random Luser hates a shell prompt. He hates to have to remember anything, particularly commands. Point and drool may not be the fastest or most flexible way to go at anything, but for all its disadvantages, it is easier to remember. ** Application compatibility J. Random Luser hears of WordPerfect. J. Random Luser hears WordPerfect is good. He doesn't know why, but he hears it's good. J. Random Luser must be able to run WordPerfect or the OS is bad. ** Shielding from hardware Most computer users can't spell ISA, let alone configure an IRQ. As much as it is possible, J. Random Luser doesn't want to even know that he has a SoundBlaster, let alone what interrupt it is at. Again, computer internals are intimidating to JRL and he doesn't want to use them. * Methods ** GUI The GUI actually has two parts: the graphical layer and the user interface layer. The graphical layer handles drawing things. The user interface layer is what the user uses to get things accomplished. X is a wonderful graphical layer, but traditionally the UI has still been the shell. Again, I point at NeXT for having a wonderful UI layer. The GNU project is currently working on a UI layer, known as Teak. I haven't seen it in action, and it hasn't yet hit release point, but it may be a good thing to add to future FreeBSD releases. Check it out at http://www.gnu.ai.mit.edu/software/teak/teak.html FMI. ** System configuration I'm sorry, guys, but this *must* be done well. How difficult would it be to write an X interface to get the /etc files handled right? Or maybe systems to take a new user by the hand and set up some of the systems (like ppp) from scratch? I can see using Guile (an extension Lisp) or a similar language to make a basic framework and library, which then can take care of configuration for other subsystems as they are added. For instance, the ppp package could add its little bit of configuration code to a standard directory, which the configuration tool could then take in and have seamless integration into the rest of the configuration. I'm really thinking of something closer to the Microsoft configuration wizards than Smit here; we need to be very sure not to scare off the user with lots of technical things. ** Hardware and kernels Kernel configuration has traditionally been an area for new Unix sysadmins to be initiated, like morse code for hams. But it really doesn't have to be that way. J. Random Luser doesn't know a kernel from a colonel, and doesn't want to either, just to get his sound card working. Sure, we all know the terrors of autodetection under ISA. I don't suggest we follow Microsoft's lead in this area, from a technical or UI standpoint. All I suggest is that we make hardware configuration kinder and gentler. ** Getting started with apps. There are some excellent apps in the ports section. Lots of them. Lots and lots. Enough to make poor JRL's head swim. Perhaps creating a distribution with some of these apps would be a good thing. You know, just some of the basic things that he wants to be able to access when you first turns on his computer: - Netscape Navigator (which we can replace with GNU E-scape when it is finished; hurry up nemo!): There we handle WWW, email, and news. Although it's not technically very good handling of the second two, it is easier to configure and use out of the box than, say, xmh. - Some basic word processor. I'm not talking about Emacs here, since JRL balks at the idea of not having different fonts and sizes (although that is in the works for Emacs). Does anybody know of a WYSIWYG (or even -ish) TeX editor or something of the sort? - Oleo, a Unix spreadsheet. (Gotta let them justify having the computer, remember!) - Nethack, xboard and GNU chess, or another game. I don't recommend xtank or xpilot because of the bandwidth issue. - A fax program. All of these should be documented somewhere. --- This is just a first run at the profile. I'd love for it to be refined as necessary. Seriously, please send me ideas for changes. I'm also not saying that we change the basic distribution to make 'a kinder, gentler BSD'. I'm proposing making a distribution mechanism so that J. Random Luser with no Unix experience can grab BSD, and have it up and running and having fun that night. > I don't think Unix is for dummies. Unix is Unix. Hard at the beginning, > but when you know it, you can do whatever you want with it, Including write a better user interface. > If I'm suggesting a configuration change of your system, I can > simply say: "modify /etc/fstab and put the line ...", I don't have to > say: "fire up your GUI, double click on the icon you find on the bottom > left of the second display ...." Terrific. Let's keep it like that. But let's also add a GUI interface to do the same thing. Pulling our system configuration out of /etc/rc and putting it in a single file as a bunch of variable assignments was the perfect setup for this. All that needs to be done is to write an interface to change those. > Surely, I do love the X window system, but I'm glad I can fix my Unix box > from a dumb terminal on the other end of the planet. No, we're not going to ever take away our beloved Unix terminal interfaces and configurations. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't supplement it. Think of writing a parser in straight C, and in yacc. Now, we use yacc because it's easier, but if we need to, we can still use C, right? You get the idea. > I don't think Unix can be made the OS of choice for the casual user, > because to achieve this goal you (probably) have to distort the > philosophy behind it. What do you see as the philosophy behind Unix? I see a wonderful toolbox... but we're all sitting here writing tools to make tools, and tools to make Unix better for making more tools, instead of using the tools we have to make Unix more popular to the masses. > I think everybody wanting to seriously learn Unix has to love computers, > has to have the right attitude at it and has to find the time to learn it. But most people don't want to seriously learn Unix. Most people also don't want to seriously learn Windows 95, or the Macintosh System, or any other OS. I only know how to change the oil on my truck; I can't diagnose or replace a blown cooling system gasket. Nevertheless, I still want to be able to drive. Similarly, J. Random Luser should be able to use his computer without having to learn a lot about Unix, and without having to submit to the tyranny of Microsoft. Happy hacking, joelh -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 17:06:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA01926 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:06:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA01921 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA08845; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:05:24 -0700 (PDT) To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu cc: molter@logic.it, adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au, vas@vas.tomsk.su, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:21:13 EDT." <199706152321.TAA14966@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:05:24 -0700 Message-ID: <8841.866419524@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > * Goals (roughly by importance) > [ some points, many of which have been covered in previous discussion ] This is all well and good, and we've been here before several times over the years, but who is going to do the work? Who is going to write all this nifty GUI stuff which takes over the job done by all of Windows' nifty GUI stuff for installing and configuring the system? You? :-) Seriously, we've come to this stage not once but several times, and if we've proven anything by the exercise it's that everyone knows just what UNIX needs to succeed, but when it comes down to "OK, so who will champion this? Who will code up a cohesive framework for others to follow?" those with the biggest ideas all retreat back into their corners mumbling things about lacking either time or skill. What stops FreeBSD from being the next NeXTStep is not a crisis of ideas, it's a crisis of coders. Somebody needs to *build* the better mousetrap before people will come - simply describing the mousetrap to your audience and telling everyone how good it would be/is going to be someday is the same mistake that Apple made. What made NeXT popular is that they understood the need for outright deeds, not words! :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 17:16:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA02354 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:16:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA02349 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:16:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id UAA15226; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 20:16:41 -0400 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 20:16:41 -0400 Message-Id: <199706160016.UAA15226@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu CC: molter@logic.it, adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au, vas@vas.tomsk.su, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199706152321.TAA14966@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> (message from Joel Ray Holveck on Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:21:13 -0400) Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. x-url: http://www.red-bean.com/~nemo x-attribution: nemo x-foobar: Drawing on my fine command of language, I said nothing. Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:21:13 -0400 From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Yes, but I can't say that we (the Unix community) haven't been guilty of the same behaviour. For example: * According to the RFC, rlogin should send a terminal type from the 'Assigned Numbers' list. Unix rlogin, however, invariably sends $TERM, whatever it may be. Other OS's simply have to cope. Has joelh heard of a `defacto standard'? I've never used rlogin on any machine which is not some sort of Unixoid. All the Windows machines and Macs I've used only support telnet. Unix rlogin, however, invariably sends $TERM, since it's likely to be right when it gets to the other end anyway. * All SMTP, NNTP, etc, etc servers must recognize a newline as a line terminator, despite the fact that the proper line terminator is a CRLF. Was the RFC written before the implementations? (I don't know the answer here, but I'd like to know it.) Netscape, for example, tends to introduce new featrues which break existing programs like Lynx. This is a bit different than some random committee chaning the standard while they write the spec. The GNU project is currently working on a UI layer, known as Teak. I haven't seen it in action, and it hasn't yet hit release point, but it may be a good thing to add to future FreeBSD releases. Check it out at http://www.gnu.ai.mit.edu/software/teak/teak.html FMI. I was under the impression all teak really is is a clone of the Mac finder. Not a completely user interface. Something that sucks about X is that there are too many user interface toolkits. teak is built on Guile and Tk. I'm willing to convert E-scape to something other than Athena a few years from now if there's a consensus within the GNU project about what it is we want to use. (I may well rewrite parts of the user interface in Guile and use Tk; I don't know yet.) ** System configuration I'm sorry, guys, but this *must* be done well. How difficult would it be to write an X interface to get the /etc files handled right? Or maybe systems to take a new user by the hand and set up some of the systems (like ppp) from scratch? I can see using Guile (an extension Lisp) or a similar language to make a basic framework and library, which then can take care of configuration for other subsystems as they are added. For instance, the ppp package could add its little bit of configuration code to a standard directory, which the configuration tool could then take in and have seamless integration into the rest of the configuration. I'm really thinking of something closer to the Microsoft configuration wizards than Smit here; we need to be very sure not to scare off the user with lots of technical things. You're welcome to have that goal, but my expirience is that, at least with the ISPs I've dealt with, it takes a bit of effort to get the chat script to work right. I guess if teh user logs in once manually and the OS learns from that, you might have a usable setup. I know that what I did could never be done by JRL in two hours. (And I only have about a five line chat script.) - Netscape Navigator (which we can replace with GNU E-scape when it is finished; hurry up nemo!): There we handle WWW, email, and news. Although it's not technically very good handling of the second two, it is easier to configure and use out of the box than, say, xmh. E-scape isn't going to handle mail or news anytime soon, at least not if I'm the only one hacking it. - Some basic word processor. I'm not talking about Emacs here, since JRL balks at the idea of not having different fonts and sizes (although that is in the works for Emacs). Does anybody know of a WYSIWYG (or even -ish) TeX editor or something of the sort? There's a program called Lyx that I've heard of, but it requires that you use its special template instead of Plain Tex or LaTeX, and it looks like it is even less stable than [insert name of favorite proprietary word processor that crashes a lot]. - A fax program. An overrated feature of my machine that I happily ignore. All of these should be documented somewhere. Didn't you say something against the usefulness of documentation? From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 17:19:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA02402 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:19:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA02396 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:18:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with ESMTP id UAA06074; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 20:18:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orion.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with ESMTP id UAA11840; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 20:18:51 -0400 (EDT) To: Kevin Eliuk cc: John Fieber , Michael Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: Complaining at Warner Brothers? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 14 Jun 1997 12:21:54 PDT." Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 20:18:50 -0400 Message-ID: <11838.866420330@orion.webspan.net> Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Kevin Eliuk wrote in message ID : > Couldn't agree more. I have only been using the internet since > September '96 and found myself quickly getting disgusted with the > over-commercialization of the entire web. Personally I believe the > whole hype is going to go the same way as CB did in the 70's and > Billy&Co. are going to have wasted a whole lot of man hours on making > the Internet user (un)friendly ;) Has anyone bitched at Paramount for the good areas of the star trek web page being accessible to MSN members only? That, IMHO, is about as low as you can go :-( Not only will it likely not work with Netscape on non M$ platforms, but you need to pay M$ to get at it. So much for the ``information superhighway'' ... it's only a highway if you are driving a car made by M$ these days. Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 17:27:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA02714 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:27:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA02709 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:27:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id UAA15280; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 20:27:15 -0400 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 20:27:15 -0400 Message-Id: <199706160027.UAA15280@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199706151947.MAA02240@rah.star-gate.com> (message from Amancio Hasty on Sun, 15 Jun 1997 12:47:34 -0700) Subject: Re: Plugin? (Re: Complaining at Warner Brothers? ) x-url: http://www.red-bean.com/~nemo x-attribution: nemo x-foobar: "One size fits all": Doesn't fit anyone. Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 12:47:34 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Does anyone out there know or have the source for a netscape plugin? Incidentally, don't think that you're going to get plugin functionality in E-scape. The unavalibility of source for plugins makes me uninterested in supporting them. However, I'll be happy to merge Shockwave and RealAudio into the main E-scape sources if you can give me the source and there are clearly no potential copyright or patent problems. (IMHO, plugins allow you to do some of the things you could do if you actually had the source, in a way that requires more work for everyone.) Are there more than a half dozen plugins out there which are truely useful? Is there anything other than Shockwave and RealAudio that are really useful? From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 17:39:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA03316 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:39:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA03309 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:39:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id UAA15377; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 20:38:56 -0400 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 20:38:56 -0400 Message-Id: <199706160038.UAA15377@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: molter@logic.it CC: adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au, vas@vas.tomsk.su, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: (message from Marco Molteni on Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:25:55 +0200 (MET DST)) Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. x-url: http://www.red-bean.com/~nemo x-attribution: nemo x-foobar: Charity: A thing that begins at home and usually stays there. Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:25:55 +0200 (MET DST) From: Marco Molteni I don't think Unix can be made the OS of choice for the casual user, because to achieve this goal you (probably) have to distort the philosophy behind it. I think everybody wanting to seriously learn Unix has to love computers, has to have the right attitude at it and has to find the time to learn it. I agree. Now I just have to find a way to ignore the 99.9% of the world that doesn't understand Unix. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 17:51:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA03833 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA03828 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:51:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id KAA08372; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:20:59 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706160050.KAA08372@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Plugin? (Re: Complaining at Warner Brothers? ) In-Reply-To: <199706160027.UAA15280@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> from "Joel N. Weber II" at "Jun 15, 97 08:27:15 pm" To: devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Joel N. Weber II) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:20:59 +0930 (CST) Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joel N. Weber II stands accused of saying: > > Incidentally, don't think that you're going to get plugin functionality > in E-scape. The unavalibility of source for plugins makes me uninterested > in supporting them. Even though the interface to plugins _is_ clearly defined and documented? Are you so narrow that you will only interface to other source-available products? Is this why there is no GNU sendmail? 8) > (IMHO, plugins allow you to do some of the things you could do if > you actually had the source, in a way that requires more work for everyone.) No, plugins let the user extend the functionality of their software without having to have the source, or the resources to build it. > Are there more than a half dozen plugins out there which > are truely useful? Is there anything other than Shockwave > and RealAudio that are really useful? The Tcl plugin is pretty damn handy. IMHO you should make your browser more, not less, modular. Not only does it make your job easier, it makes life easier for someone wanting to develop an extension either for general distribution or with a specific target group in mind (eg. for an embedded or vertical solution). -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 17:58:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA04206 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:58:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA04189 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:57:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id KAA08401; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:25:43 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706160055.KAA08401@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. In-Reply-To: <8841.866419524@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Jun 15, 97 05:05:24 pm" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:25:43 +0930 (CST) Cc: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, molter@logic.it, adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au, vas@vas.tomsk.su, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying: > > This is all well and good, and we've been here before several times > over the years, but who is going to do the work? Who is going to > write all this nifty GUI stuff which takes over the job done by all of > Windows' nifty GUI stuff for installing and configuring the system? > > You? :-) Me, with any luck. Last exam for this semester today. Yay! Now, if anyone wants to fund me for this exercise... 8) > what UNIX needs to succeed, but when it comes down to "OK, so who will > champion this? Who will code up a cohesive framework for others to > follow?" those with the biggest ideas all retreat back into their > corners mumbling things about lacking either time or skill. ... and I am beginning to suspect, when they _do_ shoulder the herculean task and start to mov forwards, the response from the rabble is so underwhelming that they give up anyway. Note I have received a total of 0 (zzero) responses to my most recent posting to the -config mailing list regarding the architectural prototype for the server side of the configuration framework. Am I supposed to take this as a sign of encouragement? -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 17:59:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA04397 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:59:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA04387 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:59:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA09128; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:59:40 -0700 (PDT) To: "Joel N. Weber II" cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Plugin? (Re: Complaining at Warner Brothers? ) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 15 Jun 1997 20:27:15 EDT." <199706160027.UAA15280@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:59:40 -0700 Message-ID: <9122.866422780@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Incidentally, don't think that you're going to get plugin functionality > in E-scape. The unavalibility of source for plugins makes me uninterested You can't be serious! :) > in supporting them. However, I'll be happy to merge Shockwave and > RealAudio into the main E-scape sources if you can give me the source > and there are clearly no potential copyright or patent problems. You can't be serious! :) Seriously, are you, umm, serious in these questions? Blowing off plug-ins would be a sad mistake, and not only because we *need* commercial folks to provide working plug-ins for us (a popular 3rd-party browser with such support also perhaps shaming Netscape into being a bit more aggressive with Navigator) but also because they're the only semi-reasonable method for extending the browser along much more radical lines than "helpers" can for you, and there are _end users_ who might be perfectly happy to provide source for their plug-ins if you would only support plug-ins in the first place, eh? Please, support some form of plug-ins. It's not that hard to design a reasonable plug-in API and FreeBSD has perfectly usable dl*() routines. Second, even if I were doped up on a combination of Wild Turkey, LSD, DMT and ether, I couldn't for a moment expect the likes of Shockwave and RealAudio to (giggle) release their sources to some 3rd party just for that (guffaw) warm fuzzy feeling. Maybe if the 3rd party also had a couple of million dollars, sure, but... Sheesh! :) I will assume that you were not serious with your second question. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 18:00:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA04509 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:00:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA04503 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:00:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA07008; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:00:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706160100.SAA07008@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: "Joel N. Weber II" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Plugin? (Re: Complaining at Warner Brothers? ) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 15 Jun 1997 20:27:15 EDT." <199706160027.UAA15280@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:00:24 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Not sure that I understand your reluctance to support "plugin" technology. Plugins are useful from the perspective of not requiring the user to recompile the whole package. Amancio >From The Desk Of "Joel N. Weber II" : > Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 12:47:34 -0700 > From: Amancio Hasty > > Does anyone out there know or have the source for a netscape plugin? > > Incidentally, don't think that you're going to get plugin functionality > in E-scape. The unavalibility of source for plugins makes me uninterested > in supporting them. However, I'll be happy to merge Shockwave and > RealAudio into the main E-scape sources if you can give me the source > and there are clearly no potential copyright or patent problems. > > (IMHO, plugins allow you to do some of the things you could do if > you actually had the source, in a way that requires more work for everyone.) > > Are there more than a half dozen plugins out there which > are truely useful? Is there anything other than Shockwave > and RealAudio that are really useful? > From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 18:06:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA04675 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:06:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA04670 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:06:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id KAA08436; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:35:12 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706160105.KAA08436@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. In-Reply-To: <199706160016.UAA15226@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> from "Joel N. Weber II" at "Jun 15, 97 08:16:41 pm" To: devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Joel N. Weber II) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:35:12 +0930 (CST) Cc: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, molter@logic.it, adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au, vas@vas.tomsk.su, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joel N. Weber II stands accused of saying: > we want to use. (I may well rewrite parts of the user interface > in Guile and use Tk; I don't know yet.) Tk already comes with a perfectly good scripting language; Tcl. Don't let another of RMS' irrational bigotisms put you off. [this is someone else rambling] > ** System configuration > > I'm sorry, guys, but this *must* be done well. How difficult would it > be to write an X interface to get the /etc files handled right? Or Bloody hard, bucko boy. There isn't enough meta-information associated with them to derive everything you need to know automagically, so you have to embed this information somewhere higher up the chain. This becomes unfun very fast, as as soon as the file format/usage changes your tools suffer from version skew. > maybe systems to take a new user by the hand and set up some of the > systems (like ppp) from scratch? I can see using Guile (an extension > Lisp) or a similar language to make a basic framework and library, > which then can take care of configuration for other subsystems as they > are added. For instance, the ppp package could add its little bit of > configuration code to a standard directory, which the configuration > tool could then take in and have seamless integration into the rest of > the configuration. Been there, done that. For the server side of a network-transparent implementation of this concept, see ftp://gsoft.com.au/pub/misc/juliet.tar.gz Note that the version there only supports modules written in Tcl. Current working code supports modules written as shared libraries, and other extension languages can be supported just as soon as someone comes forward with some language-specific knowhow. The client side is still in conceptual development, as it's likely that there are going to be requirements for several different client styles (GUI, text mode, batch mode, etc.) The current model would, in fact, be quite acceptable as an extension to an SNMP MIB if SNMP's security were a little better. > - Some basic word processor. I'm not talking about Emacs here, since > JRL balks at the idea of not having different fonts and sizes > (although that is in the works for Emacs). Does anybody know of a > WYSIWYG (or even -ish) TeX editor or something of the sort? > > There's a program called Lyx that I've heard of, but it requires that > you use its special template instead of Plain Tex or LaTeX, and it > looks like it is even less stable than [insert name of favorite > proprietary word processor that crashes a lot]. *ahem*. Have any of you looked at StarOffice yet? -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 18:10:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA06239 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:10:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA06234 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:10:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id KAA08465; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:40:12 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706160110.KAA08465@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Complaining at Warner Brothers? In-Reply-To: <199706150303.UAA00704@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "Jun 14, 97 08:03:51 pm" To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:40:11 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Amancio Hasty stands accused of saying: > Curious does the linux binary support plug-ins? Yes. > Amancio -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 18:16:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA06463 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:16:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obiwan.psinet.net.au (adrian@for.a.good.time.call.adrian.austnet.org [203.19.28.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA06453 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:16:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by obiwan.psinet.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA09311; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 08:53:40 +0800 (WST) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 08:53:40 +0800 (WST) From: Adrian Chadd To: Michael Smith cc: "Joel N. Weber II" , joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, molter@logic.it, vas@vas.tomsk.su, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. In-Reply-To: <199706160105.KAA08436@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Michael Smith wrote: > > looks like it is even less stable than [insert name of favorite > > proprietary word processor that crashes a lot]. > > *ahem*. Have any of you looked at StarOffice yet? > Uhm, yeah. Didn't I mention StarOffice? :) Theres a -config list? Hmm.. must have overlooked that one *goes to subscribe..* Michael - I'd love to help out on this one. This has been something I've wanted to do for AGES, just lacked time, and not wanting to do it totally alone (I won't even MENTION Money :) Adrian -- Adrian Chadd | "Unix doesn't stop you from doing | stupid things because that would | stop you from doing clever things" From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 18:16:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA06479 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:16:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA06456 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:16:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA07118 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:16:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706160116.SAA07118@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Amaya and plugins Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:16:03 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk hasty} bin/amaya Size of NPAmayaFuncs = 72 ***** Ap_InitializePlugin ***** Plugin type: midi suffixes: mid,midi comment: Larry Hoff's MIDIX plugin version 1.00;audio/x-midi suffixes: mid,midi comment: Larry Hoff's MIDIX plugin version 1.00; Suffixes: mid,midimid,midi ***** Ap_InitializePluginTable ***** Size of NPPluginFuncs = 52 The above shows amaya loading the MIDIX plugin;however, there is a little tiny problem , amaya does not have any hooks to call out the plugin . Last nite, I mail the amaya group asking them what is the problem. It should not be to hard for them to support given that from the Plugin API all the functionality is there even amaya's GUI can list out the recognized Plugins. Incidently, the Amaya's plugin api is identical to Netscape -- I did a diff from Netscape's Plugin api to amaya's pluginlib 8) -- this does not help the current situation with Netscape not supporting plugins for BS/OS. BTW: Plugins are not restricted to browsers, check out : http://www.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/~gimp/ gimp is still on development however it sure is looking good 8) Enjoy, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 18:19:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA06555 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA06546 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:19:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA07149; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:18:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706160118.SAA07149@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Michael Smith cc: devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Joel N. Weber II), chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Plugin? (Re: Complaining at Warner Brothers? ) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:20:59 +0930." <199706160050.KAA08372@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:18:52 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of Michael Smith : > The Tcl plugin is pretty damn handy. IMHO you should make your > browser more, not less, modular. Not only does it make your job > easier, it makes life easier for someone wanting to develop an > extension either for general distribution or with a specific target > group in mind (eg. for an embedded or vertical solution). Curious on which platform are you using the TCL Plugin? Wondering if we should come up with a Unix Plugin 8) Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 18:20:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA06708 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:20:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA06699 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:20:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA09179; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:17:33 -0700 (PDT) To: Michael Smith cc: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, molter@logic.it, adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au, vas@vas.tomsk.su, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:25:43 +0930." <199706160055.KAA08401@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:17:33 -0700 Message-ID: <9175.866423853@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Me, with any luck. Last exam for this semester today. Yay! Now, if > anyone wants to fund me for this exercise... 8) This is a highly attractive scenario - please send me some financial estimates and I'll see if we can't perhaps put a package together. Anyone else here willing to put their money where their mouth is? :-) I also expect that Mike would have to send me those estimates before I could truly say it's doable, but if this were the start of an organized "pledge drive" then I'd toss in $10K as an initial seed figure right here and now, not even having to think too hard about it. This is something that really needs doing and I've been convinced for a long time that there's nobody in their right minds who'd do it all for free - it's just too much work. So if Mike's about to come free to do it, let's hire the man! But we need more than my $10K. :) > ... and I am beginning to suspect, when they _do_ shoulder the > herculean task and start to mov forwards, the response from the rabble > is so underwhelming that they give up anyway. The masses don't lead GUI development - they just don't. It's one of the great ironies of human factors engineering. :-) The masses only know a usable thing when they've seen it, and *then* and only then they will tell you what they hate about it so that you can make suitable adjustments. Ask them exactly what they want up-front, and without a visible guide, and most of the rabble will say something to the effect of "Uh.. I dunno, something graphical, I guess! I mean, you know, like windows!" :-) In the Windows and NeXTSTep camps, what I saw was a powerful Principle Architect who understood GUI design fairly well (and say all the bad things you like about Windows, folks, but they were the first to walk over a lot of new and broken ground that Xerox hadn't gotten to yet). Now GUI design is an evolving science, and those PAs definitely made some mistakes along the way, but they were still far enough ahead of the game that they produced some of the GUI APIs that the rest of us talked about throughout most of the 80's. I would say that'd be called "having an impact", and if we want our own efforts to have any impact it's going to be through the similar efforts of one, maybe two guys With Vision(tm) who code a mad streak and produce something that's usable enough to allow the more junior programmers to start to say "Ah, OK, now I get it. I think I can use this thing of yours!" Otherwise it's just too abstract and the junior programmers don't flock around what they don't understand. ;) > Note I have received a total of 0 (zzero) responses to my most recent > posting to the -config mailing list regarding the architectural > prototype for the server side of the configuration framework. Am I > supposed to take this as a sign of encouragement? No, just a sign that human nature is still about the same as it's always been. The tribes are simply waiting for you to part the red sea and lead them across, they really aren't interested in the facinating lecture you're trying to deliver on hydrodynamics first. ;-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 18:24:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA06920 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:24:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA06915 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:24:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id KAA08527; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:53:57 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706160123.KAA08527@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. In-Reply-To: from Adrian Chadd at "Jun 16, 97 08:53:40 am" To: adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au (Adrian Chadd) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:53:57 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu, joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, molter@logic.it, vas@vas.tomsk.su, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Adrian Chadd stands accused of saying: > > Theres a -config list? Hmm.. must have overlooked that one *goes to > subscribe..* It was created to contain (and perhaps to muffle?) this discussion last time around. I posted a conceptual document some time back describing the "romeo and juliet" client/server model that I have been subsequently working on. > Michael - I'd love to help out on this one. This has been something I've > wanted to do for AGES, just lacked time, and not wanting to do it totally > alone (I won't even MENTION Money :) Ok; please dig up the frameowrk document from the -config list archive, and check out the prototype Juliet implementation, and post your feedback to the config list. Right now I want to concentrate on the module implementation, to make sure that the object/command dispatcher model is adequate, and to develop some more primitives. The best way to do this is mith more high-level modules being implemented. At some stage, the process will have to envelop a client, but I'm not ready for that yet, without a decent CUI interface toolkit. > Adrian -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 18:26:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA07009 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:26:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA07002 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:26:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id VAA15617; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:26:15 -0400 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:26:15 -0400 Message-Id: <199706160126.VAA15617@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au CC: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199706160105.KAA08436@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> (message from Michael Smith on Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:35:12 +0930 (CST)) Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. x-url: http://www.red-bean.com/~nemo x-attribution: nemo x-foobar: Any philosophy that can be put in a nutshell belongs there. --Harris Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk From: Michael Smith Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:35:12 +0930 (CST) Joel N. Weber II stands accused of saying: > we want to use. (I may well rewrite parts of the user interface > in Guile and use Tk; I don't know yet.) Tk already comes with a perfectly good scripting language; Tcl. Don't let another of RMS' irrational bigotisms put you off. It's perfectly rational. At least, I know I like C, and I know I don't like perl. But I'm inclined to agree with RMS's critcisms of TCL. There's some Linux distribution that I don't use (yet) on my own machines that requires perl for basic functionality. I hate that. [this is someone else rambling] Actually, both parts were written by someone @gnu.ai.mit.edu whose name is Joel. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 18:30:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA07269 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:30:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA07257 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:30:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id LAA08569; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:00:04 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706160130.LAA08569@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Plugin? (Re: Complaining at Warner Brothers? ) In-Reply-To: <199706160118.SAA07149@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "Jun 15, 97 06:18:52 pm" To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:00:04 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Amancio Hasty stands accused of saying: > >From The Desk Of Michael Smith : > > The Tcl plugin is pretty damn handy. IMHO you should make your > > browser more, not less, modular. Not only does it make your job > > easier, it makes life easier for someone wanting to develop an > > extension either for general distribution or with a specific target > > group in mind (eg. for an embedded or vertical solution). > > Curious on which platform are you using the TCL Plugin? I toyed with the Linux version inside the Linux Netscape. I have been meaning to get the Solaris version and run it in the Solaris Netscape under NetBSD as well, although I have been continually tempted to go back to the SunOS version because the solaris version is a memory pig of the worst sort. > Wondering if we should come up with a Unix Plugin 8) Oh, that old chestnut again? I liked the "linux installer" plugin, actually. > Amancio -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 18:30:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA07292 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:30:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA07287 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:30:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id VAA15639; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:30:20 -0400 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:30:20 -0400 Message-Id: <199706160130.VAA15639@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199706160100.SAA07008@rah.star-gate.com> (message from Amancio Hasty on Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:00:24 -0700) Subject: Re: Plugin? (Re: Complaining at Warner Brothers? ) x-url: http://www.red-bean.com/~nemo x-attribution: nemo x-foobar: I will never lie to you. Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:00:24 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Not sure that I understand your reluctance to support "plugin" technology. Plugins are useful from the perspective of not requiring the user to recompile the whole package. There are a couple of reasons I object to it. One is that E-scape is mostly platform independent at this point. I don't want to have to put knowlege specific to HURD, Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, Solaris, etc into E-scape. Until recently, it was hard to even get shared libraries at all in the GNU environment. Give me a handful of examples of plugins for which you expect that the source will be distributed, and maybe I'll consider it. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 18:40:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA07880 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:40:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA07874 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id VAA15678; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:40:12 -0400 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:40:12 -0400 Message-Id: <199706160140.VAA15678@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com CC: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <9122.866422780@time.cdrom.com> (jkh@time.cdrom.com) Subject: Re: Plugin? (Re: Complaining at Warner Brothers? ) x-url: http://www.red-bean.com/~nemo x-attribution: nemo x-foobar: Two wrongs are only the beginning. --Kohn Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:59:40 -0700 From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Seriously, are you, umm, serious in these questions? Blowing off plug-ins would be a sad mistake, and not only because we *need* commercial folks to provide working plug-ins for us (a popular 3rd-party browser with such support also perhaps shaming Netscape into being a bit more aggressive with Navigator) but also because they're the only semi-reasonable method for extending the browser along much more radical lines than "helpers" can for you, and there are _end users_ who might be perfectly happy to provide source for their plug-ins if you would only support plug-ins in the first place, eh? Wait a minute. We all agree that we have a problem because Netscape won't give us their source and let us adapt it to their needs, right? And now we turn around and say that we're perfectly happy if the RealAudio and Shockwave folks provide us with programs for which we don't have the source? I see a double standard here. As far as end users who want to provide the source: you can do a lot more to improve a program if you can change its source than you can with some plugin API. The initial plugin API netscape designed is considered brain-damaged by many people. (I haven't bothered trying to figure out exactly what it is myself.) One example that comes to mind is the PNG support. At least in the first version of the plugin, there were some things which simply not possible which the people writing the PNG plugin wanted to do. The API limits what can actually be done. (I forget exactly what the issues were. I think transparency didn't work, for example.) Please, support some form of plug-ins. It's not that hard to design a reasonable plug-in API and FreeBSD has perfectly usable dl*() routines. Do you consider Netscape's API `reasonable'? I don't think I do, based on what I've heard. Being able to change the source is the ultimate API. :-) Seriously, can you give me one specific example of a case where a user is going to provide a useful plugin for which it would make more sense to have a plugin than actually changing the source? Second, even if I were doped up on a combination of Wild Turkey, LSD, DMT and ether, I couldn't for a moment expect the likes of Shockwave and RealAudio to (giggle) release their sources to some 3rd party just for that (guffaw) warm fuzzy feeling. Maybe if the 3rd party also had a couple of million dollars, sure, but... Sheesh! :) I will assume that you were not serious with your second question. :-) No, I don't really expect it. But if someone else writes a compatible replacement, that would be fine. Once upon a time, AT&T controlled the Unix sources. Compatible replacements have been written. It could happen. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 18:42:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA07976 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:42:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obiwan.psinet.net.au (adrian@for.a.good.time.call.adrian.austnet.org [203.19.28.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA07966 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:42:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by obiwan.psinet.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA09416; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 09:21:12 +0800 (WST) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 09:21:12 +0800 (WST) From: Adrian Chadd To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. In-Reply-To: <9175.866423853@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Me, with any luck. Last exam for this semester today. Yay! Now, if > > anyone wants to fund me for this exercise... 8) > > This is a highly attractive scenario - please send me some financial > estimates and I'll see if we can't perhaps put a package together. > > Anyone else here willing to put their money where their mouth is? :-) Uhmm.. yeah.. me. If its as easy as saying "Pay me and I'll do it", then I will do it :-) I'm currently grabbing the stuff I missed on the -config list as Michael suggested, and I'll take a look at it when I've got some time this afternoon. -- Adrian Chadd | "Unix doesn't stop you from doing | stupid things because that would | stop you from doing clever things" From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 18:51:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA08648 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA08643 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id LAA08686; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:21:38 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706160151.LAA08686@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. In-Reply-To: <199706160126.VAA15617@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> from "Joel N. Weber II" at "Jun 15, 97 09:26:15 pm" To: devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Joel N. Weber II) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:21:38 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joel N. Weber II stands accused of saying: > From: Michael Smith > Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:35:12 +0930 (CST) > > Joel N. Weber II stands accused of saying: > > we want to use. (I may well rewrite parts of the user interface > > in Guile and use Tk; I don't know yet.) > > Tk already comes with a perfectly good scripting language; Tcl. Don't > let another of RMS' irrational bigotisms put you off. > > It's perfectly rational. > > At least, I know I like C, and I know I don't like perl. But I'm > inclined to agree with RMS's critcisms of TCL. Do you know Tcl? Can you comment on his criticisms from a position of informed impartiality? I was reading his criticisms before I started using Tcl seriously, and you could say that I have found it Good and Useful in spite of, and in the face of, his criticisms. Having corresponded with him personally on the matter, I find myself inclined to laugh in his face, given a personal interpretation of his motives. > There's some Linux distribution that I don't use (yet) on my own > machines that requires perl for basic functionality. I hate that. Yeah. Most FreeBSD kernels use prime opcodes, and I hate _that_. You have to draw the line somewhere. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 19:01:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA09125 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:01:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA09111 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:01:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id LAA08719; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:30:14 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706160200.LAA08719@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. In-Reply-To: <9175.866423853@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Jun 15, 97 06:17:33 pm" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:30:13 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, molter@logic.it, adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au, vas@vas.tomsk.su, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying: > > Me, with any luck. Last exam for this semester today. Yay! Now, if > > anyone wants to fund me for this exercise... 8) > > This is a highly attractive scenario - please send me some financial > estimates and I'll see if we can't perhaps put a package together. Heh. Jordan calls my bluff. (I'll mail you later today/tomorrow about this one.) > I also expect that Mike would have to send me those estimates before I > could truly say it's doable, but if this were the start of an > organized "pledge drive" then I'd toss in $10K as an initial seed > figure right here and now, not even having to think too hard about it. > This is something that really needs doing and I've been convinced for > a long time that there's nobody in their right minds who'd do it all > for free - it's just too much work. I don't think anyone needs convincing that it's worthwhile, but if anyone needs convincing that it's a long, difficult, fairly tedious job, I'd be happy to digress at some length. One of the major attractions of the modular architecture I've been expounding is that implementing a single module is a much smaller task, and thus easier, and less daunting. > The masses don't lead GUI development - they just don't. It's one of > the great ironies of human factors engineering. :-) The masses only > know a usable thing when they've seen it, and *then* and only then > they will tell you what they hate about it so that you can make > suitable adjustments. Ask them exactly what they want up-front, and > without a visible guide, and most of the rabble will say something to > the effect of "Uh.. I dunno, something graphical, I guess! I mean, > you know, like windows!" :-) *chuckle* I was actually looking for mutters of support from the potential technical collaberators. I know all about the way user feedback is usually directed at other users rather than at the developer. 8( > No, just a sign that human nature is still about the same as it's > always been. The tribes are simply waiting for you to part the red > sea and lead them across, they really aren't interested in the > facinating lecture you're trying to deliver on hydrodynamics > first. ;-) Hmm, so I should forget the evaluation-version water wings and just go right ahead with the holy thunder, and wait for the complaints about the brimstone odour afterwards? > Jordan -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 19:08:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA09502 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA09495 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:08:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA07633; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:08:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706160208.TAA07633@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: "Joel N. Weber II" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Plugin? (Re: Complaining at Warner Brothers? ) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:30:20 EDT." <199706160130.VAA15639@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:08:06 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of "Joel N. Weber II" : > Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:00:24 -0700 > From: Amancio Hasty > > Not sure that I understand your reluctance to support "plugin" technology. > Plugins are useful from the perspective of not requiring the user > to recompile the whole package. > > There are a couple of reasons I object to it. > > One is that E-scape is mostly platform independent at this point. > I don't want to have to put knowlege specific to HURD, Linux, > FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, Solaris, etc into E-scape. Until > recently, it was hard to even get shared libraries at all in > the GNU environment. Dump the GNU enviroment if it does not meet your needs. Also I am not sure whats the big deal for writing an abstract interface to load up modules at run time. > Give me a handful of examples of plugins for which you expect that > the source will be distributed, and maybe I'll consider it. > Hmm.. Look up the MIDIX plugin which uses timidy to playback midi files I lost my http pointer to it .. Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 19:22:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA10204 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:22:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from X2296 (ppp6465.on.sympatico.ca [206.172.208.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA10192 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:21:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by X2296 (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA00289; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:20:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:20:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: "Joel N. Weber II" cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Plugin? (Re: Complaining at Warner Brothers? ) In-Reply-To: <199706160140.VAA15678@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: X-OS: FreeBSD 2.2 X-Mailer: Pine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, Joel N. Weber II wrote: > Being able to change the source is the ultimate API. :-) Heh. Kernel compiles may be fun, but are they really so fun that you would want to recompile your kernel everytime you changed one of your shell scripts? :) Didn't think so. :) -- tIM...HOEk optimization: The theory that making your code incomprehensible by using only one-letter variable names will make it run faster. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 19:27:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA10409 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:27:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA10404 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:27:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA07858; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:27:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706160227.TAA07858@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: "Joel N. Weber II" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:26:15 EDT." <199706160126.VAA15617@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:27:01 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of "Joel N. Weber II" : > At least, I know I like C, and I know I don't like perl. But I'm > inclined to agree with RMS's critcisms of TCL. BTW: RMS was not even remotely rational in his criticism of TCL. Basically, he was just pushing his own agenda and rather late at that. Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 20:12:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA12622 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 20:12:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA12613 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 20:12:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id XAA16026; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:12:03 -0400 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:12:03 -0400 Message-Id: <199706160312.XAA16026@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: ac199@hwcn.org CC: jkh@time.cdrom.com, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: (message from Tim Vanderhoek on Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:20:15 -0400 (EDT)) Subject: Re: Plugin? (Re: Complaining at Warner Brothers? ) x-url: http://www.red-bean.com/~nemo x-attribution: nemo x-foobar: To err is human. To blame someone else for your errors is even more human. Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:20:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org Heh. Kernel compiles may be fun, but are they really so fun that you would want to recompile your kernel everytime you changed one of your shell scripts? :) Didn't think so. :) No. I wouldn't want to recompile the kernel to change a shell script. OTOH, a lot of the things I actually might want to change in my kernel can't be changed by just adding a new loadable module. I wrote an ugly hack on Thursday that allows me to hit alt-leftarrow, and after that, all of my keystrokes on my console appear to have come from the terminal on teh serial port rather than the console. I hit alt-leftarrow to switch back. The complete diffs for the Linux kernel are under a hundred lines. Admittedly, you can't use anything other than ttyS3 for your dumb terminal, and there is a minor problem that the kernel can't recongize alt-leftarrow when I'm in X, but other than that it works fine. The Linux kernel also happens to support loadable modules, but I don't know how to write a loadable module which does this. And I think the same situation exists with plugins for web browsers. Can people show me three examples of actual plugins for which the source is distributed? Plugins which I would actually want to use? Until then, I don't see any substantial benefit that the free (as in freedom) software community will get from me supporting plugins. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 20:24:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA12848 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 20:24:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA12843 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 20:24:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id XAA16075; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:23:51 -0400 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:23:51 -0400 Message-Id: <199706160323.XAA16075@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199706160208.TAA07633@rah.star-gate.com> (message from Amancio Hasty on Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:08:06 -0700) Subject: Re: Plugin? (Re: Complaining at Warner Brothers? ) x-url: http://www.red-bean.com/~nemo x-attribution: nemo x-foobar: Hindsight is an exact science. Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:08:06 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Dump the GNU enviroment if it does not meet your needs. The GNU environment does meet *my* needs. Plugins are not one of *my* needs. Anyway, I don't think you really want me to have an attitude that I only care about the OSes that I personally happen to use. It happens that I don't use freebsd at all. I love the conversation on this list, but I happen to run Linux on my own machine, and I don't see that freebsd is likely to be substantially better than Linux. All the key software I need exists on any Unix system, or at least can be installed on any Unix system. I don't have a strong commitment to Linux. I'll happily switch to Hurd when it works well enough. But I want E-scape to work well for the entire free software community, regardless of which OS they happen to be running. Also I am not sure whats the big deal for writing an abstract interface to load up modules at run time. It can be done, but it takes extra effort to make it work on every platform. If there's a portable interface, I'd rather use that. GNU programs are generally supposed to work out of the box on every OS. It's a lot of admnistrative overhead for me if I have to keep support for every OS merged. Should I worry about BSDI or UnixWare? I don't care about those systems, but someone probably does. It would take time for me to merge someone else's patches. > Give me a handful of examples of plugins for which you expect that > the source will be distributed, and maybe I'll consider it. Hmm.. Look up the MIDIX plugin which uses timidy to playback midi files I lost my http pointer to it .. Isn't it easy enough to include code in E-scape which knows about timidy? Won't that solve the problem? From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 20:54:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA13675 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 20:54:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA13670 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 20:54:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA08761; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 20:53:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706160353.UAA08761@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: "Joel N. Weber II" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Plugin? (Re: Complaining at Warner Brothers? ) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:23:51 EDT." <199706160323.XAA16075@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 20:53:56 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of "Joel N. Weber II" : > Isn't it easy enough to include code in E-scape which knows about > timidy? Won't that solve the problem? The answer to that is no . If you like can can view E-scape as a platform from which you can launch applications as well as providing basic services. Another way to look at it is to dynamically reconfigure your package so as to keep the basic features to a minium . For instance, if I am not into midi why should I be inflicted by downloading the source code and recompiling e-scape to exclude the MIDI component. BTW: I just downloaded the linux version for netscape and the tclplugin for linux . Works rather nicely over here. If the Linux version for netscape proves to be reliable I will dump the BS/OS netscape. Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 21:21:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA14405 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:21:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA14398 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:21:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA17461; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:21:14 -0700 (PDT) To: "Joel N. Weber II" cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Plugin? (Re: Complaining at Warner Brothers? ) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:40:12 EDT." <199706160140.VAA15678@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:21:14 -0700 Message-ID: <17457.866434874@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Wait a minute. > > We all agree that we have a problem because Netscape won't give us > their source and let us adapt it to their needs, right? No, I certainly am not one in agreement with this. I don't see that Netscape is under any obligation to give us source at all, and saying that it's a problem is sort of like saying that not being able to take any arbitrary chunk of matter and turn it into food through advanced transmogrification technology is a problem. Sure, they're both problems in a sense, and having solutions in hand would be wonderful, but they're also issues for which the solutions are so far out of practical reach that it's just really not worth debating them. I'd like anti-gravity for cheaper space flight, too, but just wishing for it won't make it so. :-) > And now we turn around and say that we're perfectly happy if the > RealAudio and Shockwave folks provide us with programs for which > we don't have the source? > > I see a double standard here. Not me, I see only confusion here. :-) I don't think that anybody has realistically called for anybody to give us source, not Netscape and not Shockwave. There's no way in hell that they're going to do it so why debate it at all? This is just silly. > Do you consider Netscape's API `reasonable'? I don't think I do, > based on what I've heard. It doesn't matter whether it's reasonable or not, they've set the defacto standard and if you choose to go off and roll your own for whatever reasons then you're making decisions out of expediency rather than general wisdom. > Seriously, can you give me one specific example of a case where > a user is going to provide a useful plugin for which it would > make more sense to have a plugin than actually changing the source? Uh.... Why on earth would any user want to hack on your browser if they could just write a compatible plug-in? I certainly wouldn't, and just trying to syncronize the different "extended" browser versions would be a farging nightmare. Imagine a set of pages designed to work with JoelBrowser version 3.0 with the FooVision and BarAudio extentions compiled in (rather than being dynamically loadable plug-ins). You find the extentions on the net, you compile up the browser, joy! You can see the page! Then you follow a link at the bottom and now it says you need JoelBrowser 2.3 with the BazFilter extention (3.0 broke the BazFilter and the author is still working on updating it). Now what do you do?! And that's just 3 possibilities - the array of potentially incompatible extentions is theoretically unbounded and it would be realistic for the average user to just give up in disgust after recompiling JoelBrowser for the 5th time, just in order to view a page. Yuck. This way lies madness. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 21:22:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA14439 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:22:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA14433 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:22:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA17477; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:22:10 -0700 (PDT) To: Adrian Chadd cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 16 Jun 1997 09:21:12 +0800." Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:22:10 -0700 Message-ID: <17474.866434930@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Anyone else here willing to put their money where their mouth is? :-) > > Uhmm.. yeah.. me. > > If its as easy as saying "Pay me and I'll do it", then I will do it :-) > I'm currently grabbing the stuff I missed on the -config list as Michael > suggested, and I'll take a look at it when I've got some time this > afternoon. I'm confused - are you offering money here or not? :) I think we have our leader already, now we just need to fund his work. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 21:26:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA14536 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:26:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA14531 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA17509; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:26:35 -0700 (PDT) To: "Joel N. Weber II" cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Plugin? (Re: Complaining at Warner Brothers? ) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:30:20 EDT." <199706160130.VAA15639@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:26:35 -0700 Message-ID: <17506.866435195@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Give me a handful of examples of plugins for which you expect that > the source will be distributed, and maybe I'll consider it. I have a better idea - just go ahead and release E-scape without plug-in support and we'll just leave it to the masses to convinve you whether or not that was such a good idea. :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 21:27:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA14566 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:27:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA14561 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:27:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA17495; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:25:13 -0700 (PDT) To: Michael Smith cc: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, molter@logic.it, adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au, vas@vas.tomsk.su, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:30:13 +0930." <199706160200.LAA08719@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:25:13 -0700 Message-ID: <17491.866435113@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > *chuckle* I was actually looking for mutters of support from the > potential technical collaberators. I know all about the way user > feedback is usually directed at other users rather than at the > developer. 8( Well, if you can find any technical collaborators who aren't already hellishly busy, yeah, sure. :-) I'd like to help you myself, and I do see myself getting involved to some extent in this before it's well under way, but I'd be lying if I said I had as much time to spend on it as I wanted to or is needed. I think my time might more effectively be spent in organizing the funding, frankly. :) > Hmm, so I should forget the evaluation-version water wings and just go > right ahead with the holy thunder, and wait for the complaints about > the brimstone odour afterwards? Why not? It worked for Gates! :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 22:21:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA15948 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:21:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA15940 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:21:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id BAA16712; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 01:21:11 -0400 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 01:21:11 -0400 Message-Id: <199706160521.BAA16712@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com CC: molter@logic.it, adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au, vas@vas.tomsk.su, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <8841.866419524@time.cdrom.com> (jkh@time.cdrom.com) Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> * Goals (roughly by importance) >> [ some points, many of which have been covered in previous discussion ] Sorry, I haven't been following -hackers, so this was the first time I hit this thread. I have seen many of the same points made and argued over many times in -chat. >This is all well and good, and we've been here before several times >over the years, but who is going to do the work? Who is going to >write all this nifty GUI stuff which takes over the job done by all of >Windows' nifty GUI stuff for installing and configuring the system? >You? :-) Why not? The reason I wrote up the profile was as the basis of a plan. The reason I asked for refinements is so that the plan can be better. If we can come up with a plan, then I would be glad to design it, and coordinate (and participate on) a team to code it. (Oh, dear, what am I saying?) The projects I see succeed are coordinated, so this has to be people working together, not framentation; otherwise we get Linux. A GUI like this, to work, must be internally consistant, and provide a consistant interface. I want to make sure that the ideas we get will work before I start coding. After that, we can talk about the rest. What made the current distribution/release system work? What about the current package system? How did these things come to be the vital tools they now are? >Seriously, we've come to this stage not once but several times, and if >we've proven anything by the exercise it's that everyone knows just >what UNIX needs to succeed, I'm still a bit unclear. And since I just stuck my foot in the thick of it, then could you please help me see what it needs? >but when it comes down to "OK, so who will >champion this? Who will code up a cohesive framework for others to >follow?" those with the biggest ideas all retreat back into their >corners mumbling things about lacking either time or skill. I don't have the skill... yet. I can design and code fine, but don't know much about X. Still, this can be remedied. By the time the framework is designed and planned, I think I can build up a reasonable level of X skill to get started on that part. >What stops FreeBSD from being the next NeXTStep is not a crisis of >ideas, it's a crisis of coders. Somebody needs to *build* the better >mousetrap before people will come - simply describing the mousetrap to >your audience and telling everyone how good it would be/is going to be >someday is the same mistake that Apple made. What made NeXT popular >is that they understood the need for outright deeds, not words! :) Terrific. I would like to do this. People, look over the goals that I wrote down. Let's modify them, refine them. Then, let me know if you want to help, and how. Happy hacking, joelh -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 22:21:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA15961 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA15947 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:21:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id BAA16716; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 01:21:24 -0400 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 01:21:24 -0400 Message-Id: <199706160521.BAA16716@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199706160353.UAA08761@rah.star-gate.com> (message from Amancio Hasty on Sun, 15 Jun 1997 20:53:56 -0700) Subject: Re: Plugin? (Re: Complaining at Warner Brothers? ) x-url: http://www.red-bean.com/~nemo x-attribution: nemo x-foobar: Time is an illusion perpetrated by the manufacturers of space. Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 20:53:56 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty >From The Desk Of "Joel N. Weber II" : > Isn't it easy enough to include code in E-scape which knows about > timidy? Won't that solve the problem? The answer to that is no . If you like can can view E-scape as a platform from which you can launch applications as well as providing basic services. Another way to look at it is to dynamically reconfigure your package so as to keep the basic features to a minium . For instance, if I am not into midi why should I be inflicted by downloading the source code and recompiling e-scape to exclude the MIDI component. If E-scape ever does support plugins, you'll have to download the Linux and NetBSD and OpenBSD and Hurd and Solaris code which handles plugins, and I doubt it will ever be useful to you. I suspect there are a couple hundred lines of generic sound GUI code, and maybe a hundred lines or less to interact with Timidy. I think that any plugin API will be much bigger. (I'm assuming that about all this plugin really does is fork and exec timidy, and maybe provides some sort of stop/play/etc controls. Is that true?) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 22:38:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA16351 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:38:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA16346 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:38:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id BAA16814; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 01:38:10 -0400 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 01:38:10 -0400 Message-Id: <199706160538.BAA16814@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu CC: molter@logic.it, adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au, vas@vas.tomsk.su, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199706160016.UAA15226@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> (devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu) Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>Yes, but I can't say that we (the Unix community) haven't been guilty >>of the same behaviour. For example: >> * According to the RFC, rlogin should send a terminal type from the >>'Assigned Numbers' list. Unix rlogin, however, invariably sends >>$TERM, whatever it may be. Other OS's simply have to cope. >Has joelh heard of a `defacto standard'? Yes, joelh has. And that's what Bill Gates is trying to do with TCP/IP, and I'm just pointing out that we've done the same things. >I've never used rlogin on any machine which is not some sort of Unixoid. >All the Windows machines and Macs I've used only support telnet. Look at tucows.com; they've got some rlogin programs for Windows. I don't know about Macs. Also, check out VMS. >> * All SMTP, NNTP, etc, etc servers must recognize a newline as a line >>terminator, despite the fact that the proper line terminator is a >>CRLF. >Was the RFC written before the implementations? (I don't know the >answer here, but I'd like to know it.) RFCs must have two separate implementations before becoming standards. But when RFC821 was written in August 1982, Unix shared the ARPANET with other OS's. >Netscape, for example, tends to introduce new featrues which break >existing programs like Lynx. This is a bit different than some >random committee chaning the standard while they write the spec. I don't see your point. >>The GNU project is currently working on a UI layer, known as Teak. I >>haven't seen it in action, and it hasn't yet hit release point, but it >>may be a good thing to add to future FreeBSD releases. Check it out >>at http://www.gnu.ai.mit.edu/software/teak/teak.html FMI. >I was under the impression all teak really is is a clone of the Mac >finder. Not a completely user interface. That is the part of the UI that we need here; something to launch programs and manipulate files. What do you have in mind? [on E-scape] >(I may well rewrite parts of the user interface >in Guile and use Tk; I don't know yet.) Let's discuss this in private. >>** System configuration [snip] >You're welcome to have that goal, but my expirience is that, at least >with the ISPs I've dealt with, it takes a bit of effort to get the chat >script to work right. I guess if teh user logs in once manually and >the OS learns from that, you might have a usable setup. I know that >what I did could never be done by JRL in two hours. (And I only have >about a five line chat script.) If that were the case, then JRL couldn't use Win95 for PPP connections, and that is very common. In my experience, something like "--in:--in:-${NAME}^M-word:-${PASSWD}^M" works perfectly fine with most ISPs. >>- Netscape Navigator (which we can replace with GNU E-scape when it >>is finished; hurry up nemo!): There we handle WWW, email, and news. >>Although it's not technically very good handling of the second two, it >>is easier to configure and use out of the box than, say, xmh. >E-scape isn't going to handle mail or news anytime soon, at least not >if I'm the only one hacking it. Fine. Then xmh and some simple background POP-retrieval daemon as well. >>- Some basic word processor. I'm not talking about Emacs here, since >>JRL balks at the idea of not having different fonts and sizes >>(although that is in the works for Emacs). Does anybody know of a >>WYSIWYG (or even -ish) TeX editor or something of the sort? >There's a program called Lyx that I've heard of, but it requires that >you use its special template instead of Plain Tex or LaTeX, and it >looks like it is even less stable than [insert name of favorite >proprietary word processor that crashes a lot]. Okay, I'll check it out. >>- A fax program. >An overrated feature of my machine that I happily ignore. Consider it a complement, nemo, when I say that you are not J. Random Luser. >>All of these should be documented somewhere. >Didn't you say something against the usefulness of documentation? I said that docs shouldn't be necessary for elementary tasks. I didn't say that docs shouldn't be availible, or useful. Rather to the contrary, well-written documentation is going to be important for this to succeed. Happy hacking, joelh -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 22:43:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA16494 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:43:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA16489 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:43:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA09681; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:43:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706160543.WAA09681@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: "Joel N. Weber II" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Plugin? (Re: Complaining at Warner Brothers? ) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 16 Jun 1997 01:21:24 EDT." <199706160521.BAA16716@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:43:11 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of "Joel N. Weber II" : > Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 20:53:56 -0700 > From: Amancio Hasty > > >From The Desk Of "Joel N. Weber II" : > > Isn't it easy enough to include code in E-scape which knows about > > timidy? Won't that solve the problem? > > The answer to that is no . If you like can can view E-scape as > a platform from which you can launch applications as well as > providing basic services. Another way to look at it is to > dynamically reconfigure your package so as to keep the basic > features to a minium . For instance, if I am not into midi > why should I be inflicted by downloading the source code and > recompiling e-scape to exclude the MIDI component. > > If E-scape ever does support plugins, you'll have to download > the Linux and NetBSD and OpenBSD and Hurd and Solaris code > which handles plugins, and I doubt it will ever be useful to > you. I have no idea why are you saying that I will have to download XYZ OS code in order to support "plugins" in fact is not a very smart thing to discuss technical capabilities without knowing the technology. If you are looking for sample code which shows how plugins can be implemented please download amaya from http://www.w3.org and check out how it is done. Don't worry the code does not byte 8) Let me ask you a different question, why are you writing a browser wouldn't you efforts be better spend by way of helping www.w3.org?? Here are a couple of sample projects: 1. go to the next step and write a generic distributed object platform. 2. build a next generation word/spreadsheet processor similar to a browser perhaps fully SGML compliant 3. Since you like GNU stuff how about a Guile mobile agent plugin for netscape. Now thats a real neat project that if you go ahead and implement it you will be king of the hill perhaps even overshadow RMS ! Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 22:44:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA16558 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:44:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA16553 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:44:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id BAA16861; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 01:44:41 -0400 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 01:44:41 -0400 Message-Id: <199706160544.BAA16861@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: TCL x-url: http://www.red-bean.com/~nemo x-attribution: nemo x-foobar: Practice random senselessness and act kind of beautiful. Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Does anyone want to offer any specific details about why they disagree with RMS about TCL, or does everyone want to just say `RMS is a moron' without providing any specific comments? (RMS has provided some convincing arguments. So far, I don't think the people on this list have provided any serious counterarguements.) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 22:52:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA16799 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:52:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA16794 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:52:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id BAA16911; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 01:52:34 -0400 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 01:52:34 -0400 Message-Id: <199706160552.BAA16911@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au CC: devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu, molter@logic.it, adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au, vas@vas.tomsk.su, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199706160105.KAA08436@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> (message from Michael Smith on Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:35:12 +0930 (CST)) Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> we want to use. (I may well rewrite parts of the user interface >> in Guile and use Tk; I don't know yet.) >Tk already comes with a perfectly good scripting language; Tcl. Don't >let another of RMS' irrational bigotisms put you off. I personally am going to speak up for Guile, because Lisp is a great language. >[this is someone else rambling] \-- Me. -joelh >>>** System configuration >>>I'm sorry, guys, but this *must* be done well. How difficult would it >>>be to write an X interface to get the /etc files handled right? Or >Bloody hard, bucko boy. There isn't enough meta-information >associated with them to derive everything you need to know >automagically, so you have to embed this information somewhere higher >up the chain. This becomes unfun very fast, as as soon as the file >format/usage changes your tools suffer from version skew. Most of the stuff is fairly static. When was the last time that the resolv.conf format changed? As for the stuff started in /etc/rc, I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that if we can get keep things coordinated enough to have a sane configuration file, then we can keep a fairly simple structure graph for it together. That's why I was thinking of using Lisp for this; it's very easy to organize dynamic graphs and whatnot. >>> maybe systems to take a new user by the hand and set up some of the >>> systems (like ppp) from scratch? I can see using Guile (an extension >>> Lisp) or a similar language to make a basic framework and library, >>> which then can take care of configuration for other subsystems as they >>> are added. For instance, the ppp package could add its little bit of >>> configuration code to a standard directory, which the configuration >>> tool could then take in and have seamless integration into the rest of >>> the configuration. >Been there, done that. For the server side of a network-transparent >implementation of this concept, see >ftp://gsoft.com.au/pub/misc/juliet.tar.gz >Note that the version there only supports modules written in Tcl. >Current working code supports modules written as shared libraries, and >other extension languages can be supported just as soon as someone >comes forward with some language-specific knowhow. >The client side is still in conceptual development, as it's likely >that there are going to be requirements for several different client >styles (GUI, text mode, batch mode, etc.) >The current model would, in fact, be quite acceptable as an extension >to an SNMP MIB if SNMP's security were a little better. Okay, I'll check this out. >>> - Some basic word processor. I'm not talking about Emacs here, since >>>JRL balks at the idea of not having different fonts and sizes >>>(although that is in the works for Emacs). Does anybody know of a >>>WYSIWYG (or even -ish) TeX editor or something of the sort? >> There's a program called Lyx that I've heard of, but it requires that >> you use its special template instead of Plain Tex or LaTeX, and it >> looks like it is even less stable than [insert name of favorite >> proprietary word processor that crashes a lot]. >*ahem*. Have any of you looked at StarOffice yet? What *was* I thinking? Of course, StarOffice would be perfect, as we have discussed on this list multiple times in the past. Happy hacking, joelh -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 22:57:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA16907 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:57:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA16902 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:57:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id BAA16953; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 01:57:05 -0400 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 01:57:05 -0400 Message-Id: <199706160557.BAA16953@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com CC: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, molter@logic.it, adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au, vas@vas.tomsk.su, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <9175.866423853@time.cdrom.com> (jkh@time.cdrom.com) Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> Me, with any luck. Last exam for this semester today. Yay! Now, if >> anyone wants to fund me for this exercise... 8) >This is a highly attractive scenario - please send me some financial >estimates and I'll see if we can't perhaps put a package together. >Anyone else here willing to put their money where their mouth is? :-) I have no money (actually less than that), but I am willing to work. Happy hacking, joelh -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 23:09:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA17230 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:09:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA17225 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:09:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id JAA19154; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 09:10:39 +0300 (EEST) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 09:10:38 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: "Joel N. Weber II" cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Plugin? (Re: Complaining at Warner Brothers? ) In-Reply-To: <199706160027.UAA15280@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, Joel N. Weber II wrote: > Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 12:47:34 -0700 > From: Amancio Hasty > > Does anyone out there know or have the source for a netscape plugin? > > Incidentally, don't think that you're going to get plugin functionality > in E-scape. The unavalibility of source for plugins makes me uninterested > in supporting them. However, I'll be happy to merge Shockwave and > RealAudio into the main E-scape sources if you can give me the source > and there are clearly no potential copyright or patent problems. Heh... I really doubt you will have the chanche... > > (IMHO, plugins allow you to do some of the things you could do if > you actually had the source, in a way that requires more work for everyone.) No. The idea of the plug-ins is that they are not merged into the main source. You don't care about a certain type of media, you don't install the plug-in. > > Are there more than a half dozen plugins out there which > are truely useful? Is there anything other than Shockwave > and RealAudio that are really useful? There are several - the video plug-ins, the vrml plug-ins, the acrobat amber plug-in, etc. They *are* useful. Actually, there is another very imporatnt thing with the plug-ins. One does not have to exists at the time the browser is made to be used. There are currently no MP3 plugins. But should some arrive some time in the future, I will be able to use it. The same holds true for all other types of media/scripting (like the tcl plugin, I am 100% sure it is possible to make a lisp/scheme/guile/whatever plug-in). Plug-ins bring the user *a lot* of freedom and possibilities they would not have otherwise. Sander > > From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 23:14:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA17360 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:14:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA17355 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:14:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA09966; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:14:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706160614.XAA09966@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: "Joel N. Weber II" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TCL In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 16 Jun 1997 01:44:41 EDT." <199706160544.BAA16861@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:14:10 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nope ... Not interested in dragging out that argument. In fact I don't care about java, tcl, c++ , or guile . Amancio >From The Desk Of "Joel N. Weber II" : > Does anyone want to offer any specific details about why they disagree > with RMS about TCL, or does everyone want to just say `RMS is a moron' > without providing any specific comments? > > (RMS has provided some convincing arguments. So far, I don't think > the people on this list have provided any serious counterarguements.) > From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 15 23:55:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA18761 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:55:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA18756 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:55:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA17925; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:55:55 -0700 (PDT) To: "Joel N. Weber II" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TCL In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 16 Jun 1997 01:44:41 EDT." <199706160544.BAA16861@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:55:55 -0700 Message-ID: <17921.866444155@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Does anyone want to offer any specific details about why they disagree > with RMS about TCL, or does everyone want to just say `RMS is a moron' > without providing any specific comments? Easy: RMS does not see the value of a hybrid approach to scripting languages - he wants a general purpose mousetrap which allows you to code your entire application, not just the "user mutable" parts, in the scripting language and he's pushing another scheme variant as the solution. I and many others disagree with his argument that the hybrid approach is fundamentally flawed and wrong, and we DO see value in this approach which TCL has taken. All of RMS's general criticisms of TCL fall under the "it's not good as a general implementation language" category, e.g. he notes things like the parsing overhead or TCL's lack of generalized data types, and all that shows is that he's pursuing different goals and is incorrectly lambasting TCL's "failure" to achieve those goals. TCL is intended for a different purpose, a purpose which RMS does not consider valuable, and it's therefore rather hard to argue with him on this topic when one side is yelling "Apples!" and the other "Oranges!" Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 16 00:02:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA19130 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 00:02:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA19116 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 00:02:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id DAA17792; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 03:01:47 -0400 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 03:01:47 -0400 Message-Id: <199706160701.DAA17792@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au CC: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199706160050.KAA08372@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> (message from Michael Smith on Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:20:59 +0930 (CST)) Subject: Re: Plugin? (Re: Complaining at Warner Brothers? ) x-url: http://www.red-bean.com/~nemo x-attribution: nemo x-foobar: Ask not for whom the bell tolls, and pay only station-to-station rates. Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk From: Michael Smith Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:20:59 +0930 (CST) > (IMHO, plugins allow you to do some of the things you could do if > you actually had the source, in a way that requires more work for everyone.) No, plugins let the user extend the functionality of their software without having to have the source, or the resources to build it. I fail to see where either of these would be huge advantages. If I have the resources to run X, I have th resources to run gcc. And with E-scape, you're almost forced by the GPL to get the source. The Tcl plugin is pretty damn handy. IMHO you should make your browser more, not less, modular. Not only does it make your job easier, it makes life easier for someone wanting to develop an extension either for general distribution or with a specific target group in mind (eg. for an embedded or vertical solution). You've raised a good point. It is desireable for E-scape to eventually suport the functionality of the TCL plugin, although I think that it won't be written strictly as a plugin. I'm also realizing that I need to come up with an adaquate framework in my code for these random pieces. There is more to life than HTML and images :-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 16 00:11:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA19617 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 00:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA19605 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 00:11:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA17965; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 00:04:23 -0700 (PDT) To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu, molter@logic.it, adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au, vas@vas.tomsk.su, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 16 Jun 1997 01:52:34 EDT." <199706160552.BAA16911@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 00:04:23 -0700 Message-ID: <17960.866444663@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I personally am going to speak up for Guile, because Lisp is a great > language. It's a fine language, one which I'm a big fan of, but it's still just not practical to expect everyone to learn it. FORTH falls into a similar category: powerful but arcane. The number of people who can write truly competent ELISP, for example, can probably be counted on two hands, and remember that emacs has been out for many years now. If there was not a significant learning-curve to lisp then it probably would have taken over the world already, QED. LISP has also already more than had its chance to become *the* interpreted language of choice and, instead, we've seen things like BASIC brought out of retirement before we've seen a general movement to LISP. What does that tell you? That all programmers are stupid? Perhaps, but such conclusions are hardly valuable. :-) TCL's rapid success, and after only a comparatively recent introduction, only demonstrates that there is still a need for more simplistic procedural languages, TCL being something which can be learned in about an hour by any reasonably competent programmer - it's a language of truly trivial implementation and scope. I also know about GUILE's plans to put a mini-C environment on top in order to pave over these issues, but I haven't seen that bear much fruit yet. It's still just an idea. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 16 00:37:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA20757 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 00:37:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA20750 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 00:37:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA18107; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 00:31:52 -0700 (PDT) To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu cc: molter@logic.it, adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au, vas@vas.tomsk.su, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 16 Jun 1997 01:21:11 EDT." <199706160521.BAA16712@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 00:31:52 -0700 Message-ID: <18103.866446312@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Why not? The reason I wrote up the profile was as the basis of a > plan. The reason I asked for refinements is so that the plan can be > better. If we can come up with a plan, then I would be glad to design > it, and coordinate (and participate on) a team to code it. (Oh, dear, No, you've only outlined the _goals_. You haven't even come remotely close to outlining an actual plan yet. ;-) > What made the current distribution/release system work? What about > the current package system? How did these things come to be the vital > tools they now are? I or someone else just sat down and coded them. Sure, I could have asked for lots of input and general feedback before doing the package tools or the ports collection, but then we'd still be talking about it to this day if I had - see the Grand Unified Console Driver project for a good example of that process gone deeply wrong. I'm normally a big fan of getting lots of input from the crowd, don't get me wrong, but there are also many instances where this just plain doesn't work. You either get lots of good ideas which totally outstrip your actual time available (and the package tools are seriously flawed in many respects, but I didn't have time to addresss those issues and so had to live with the flaws - it was a very deliberate trade-off of time over features) or you get a lot of irrelevant threads as various folks use the discussion to try and advance their own agendas. Again, they may be very important agendas and worthy of further study, but you just can't solve 10 problems at once with any accuracy - sometimes you have to say "yes, I agree we need that too, now please shut up so that I can do this other stuff before the current year is over." :-) > I'm still a bit unclear. And since I just stuck my foot in the thick > of it, then could you please help me see what it needs? I think you already know that - you outlined some of the points more than reasonably in your "UNIX goals" message which sparked this. What we need now are more down-to-earth ideas. To draw an analogy, it's as if you have a room full of unwashed people. Everyone agrees that they stink badly and really could use a bath, but there's no running water or soap or any way of bathing them clearly in evidence. You then have the choice of either standing around and saying "my, those folks sure reek, are we all in agreement that bathing them would be a *really good idea*?" or you can start talking about where the nearest water is, whether any piping materials can be obtained and if someone could perhaps locate some empty oil drums and fill them by hand in the meantime, just to get a few of the people smelling a bit better. So, as I mentioned before, what we've been over so many times are the goals. We all know we have unwashed people and we all know that they'd smell a lot better clean. What we need to handle here is the problem Mike talked about, where one guy stands up and declares "OK, by god, I've located some plastic piping and I know where the river is! Who will join me in hooking it all up and creating a pipeline?" [dead silence] Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 16 00:40:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA20910 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 00:40:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA20905 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 00:40:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id RAA10372; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 17:06:22 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706160736.RAA10372@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. In-Reply-To: <17474.866434930@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Jun 15, 97 09:22:10 pm" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 17:06:22 +0930 (CST) Cc: adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying: > > If its as easy as saying "Pay me and I'll do it", then I will do it :-) > > I'm currently grabbing the stuff I missed on the -config list as Michael > > suggested, and I'll take a look at it when I've got some time this > > afternoon. > > I'm confused - are you offering money here or not? :) > > I think we have our leader already, now we just need to fund his work. I _really_ need to talk about how make the "funding" concept work. In particular, I need to sort out whether it's feasible to take people like Adrian here and sub-contract him to do some of the work. Is this viable? As the VC instigator, do you have any specific expectations about how the venture should be organised? > Jordan -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 16 00:48:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA21167 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 00:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA21161 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 00:48:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id DAA17985; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 03:48:18 -0400 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 03:48:18 -0400 Message-Id: <199706160748.DAA17985@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com CC: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu, molter@logic.it, adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au, vas@vas.tomsk.su, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <17960.866444663@time.cdrom.com> (jkh@time.cdrom.com) Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> I personally am going to speak up for Guile, because Lisp is a great >> language. > It's a fine language, one which I'm a big fan of, but it's still just > not practical to expect everyone to learn it. FORTH falls into a > similar category: powerful but arcane. Correct. It is not practical to expect everyone to learn it. I also don't expect people to learn PostScript; I just provide an app that relies on PostScript to draw what the user inputs. Just as with the package system, most configuration cases can be handled by a simple structure. One needn't know Lisp to write it; Lisp excells at reading other structures, and the native read format is good as it stands. Extentions to this basic structure could be made to account for various needs, and then in extreme cases then Lisp or C can be written to handle the new needs on a per-package basis, to be included in the package and assimilated by the configuration system at runtime. Consider the following configuration file, for a hypothetical networking extention MegaFoo, which contains one variable (a server name) that it puts as FOO_BAZ in /etc/rc.conf, and one flag which it puts in /etc/foo.cf as "set frob<-yes". (megafoo :label "MegaFoo 3.1 Configuration" :subcategory networking :options ((baz :label "Baz Server" :type string :accept "\(\([A-Za-z_]+\.\)*[A-Za-z_]+\)\|\([0-9]\.[0-9]\.[0-9]\.[0-9]\)" :file "/etc/rc.conf" :variable "FOO_BAZ") (frob :label "Frob Flag" :type boolean :booltype yes-no :file "/etc/foo.cf" :regexp "^set frob<-[a-z]*$" :replacement "set frob<-%0"))) >The number of people who can write truly competent ELISP, for example, >can probably be counted on two hands, and remember that emacs has been >out for many years now. If there was not a significant learning-curve >to lisp then it probably would have taken over the world already, QED. I will object to both points. I have seen many people who can write very good Emacs Lisp, but I am presently hacking Emacs so tend to have a skewed viewpoint. Second, learning curve does not indicate popularity. Lots of other items, including marketing and happenstance, do that. >LISP has also already more than had its chance to become *the* >interpreted language of choice and, instead, we've seen things like >BASIC brought out of retirement before we've seen a general movement >to LISP. Remember that Lisp used to be the interpreted language of choice. Unix took over a lot of the academic OS share, and with it C took over the minds of the programmers. However, C is designed for different problems than Lisp (and DON'T give me Turing arguments here). I think that this, for the most part, is a Lisp problem, not a C problem. The interface can be handled by Guile and subterfuge. >What does that tell you? That all programmers are stupid? >Perhaps, but such conclusions are hardly valuable. :-) I won't make that conclusion yet. >TCL's rapid success, and after only a comparatively recent >introduction, only demonstrates that there is still a need for more >simplistic procedural languages, TCL being something which can be >learned in about an hour by any reasonably competent programmer - it's >a language of truly trivial implementation and scope. The other Joel is the one arguing against TCL, not I. Personally, I have not had the pleasure (or pain, as the case may be) of hacking in TCL. My language experience is limited primarily to the real biggies: (in fairly random order) BASIC, Fortran, Lisp (in different dialects), Pascal, C, C++, Perl, Intercal, assembly (8088, 360, and MIX), and some special-purpose languages such as Mathematica and TeX. If you think it to be that important to today's modern programmer, and that easy to learn, then point me to a TCL reference and I'll learn it. My point is that each language has its strengths and weaknesses. I wouldn't write a recursive-descent parser in Fortran, solve the eight queens problem in Perl, write an x10 interface in Lisp, write a node graph analyzer in C, or do anything nontrivial in Intercal. Each language has its own problems it can solve (or, in Intercal's case, to create), so I say put each problem to its proper language. >I also know about GUILE's plans to put a mini-C environment on top in >order to pave over these issues, but I haven't seen that bear much >fruit yet. It's still just an idea. Which issues? Can you be more specific? Happy hacking, joelh -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 16 01:01:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA21617 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 01:01:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA21612 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 01:01:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id EAA18063; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 04:01:30 -0400 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 04:01:30 -0400 Message-Id: <199706160801.EAA18063@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com CC: molter@logic.it, adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au, vas@vas.tomsk.su, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <18103.866446312@time.cdrom.com> (jkh@time.cdrom.com) Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> Why not? The reason I wrote up the profile was as the basis of a >> plan. The reason I asked for refinements is so that the plan can be >> better. If we can come up with a plan, then I would be glad to design >> it, and coordinate (and participate on) a team to code it. (Oh, dear, > No, you've only outlined the _goals_. You haven't even come remotely > close to outlining an actual plan yet. ;-) I've been going over plan in my head. I didn't want to start posting thoughts about plan until goals had been made good; a plan to poor goals is pointless, and discussion about a plan to goals that are changing at the moment is even more so. >> What made the current distribution/release system work? What about >> the current package system? How did these things come to be the vital >> tools they now are? >I or someone else just sat down and coded them. Sure, I could have >asked for lots of input and general feedback before doing the package >tools or the ports collection, but then we'd still be talking about it >to this day if I had - see the Grand Unified Console Driver project >for a good example of that process gone deeply wrong. I'm not familiar with this project. Please, tell me more. >I'm normally a big fan of getting lots of input from the crowd, don't >get me wrong, but there are also many instances where this just plain >doesn't work. You either get lots of good ideas which totally [snip] >once with any accuracy - sometimes you have to say "yes, I agree we >need that too, now please shut up so that I can do this other stuff >before the current year is over." :-) Correct. But I am young and inexperienced, and this has been discussed so much, I decided that finding out the result of previous discussion that I may have forgotten would be a good thing to do. >> I'm still a bit unclear. And since I just stuck my foot in the thick >> of it, then could you please help me see what it needs? >I think you already know that - you outlined some of the points more >than reasonably in your "UNIX goals" message which sparked this. What >we need now are more down-to-earth ideas. Right. I've been coming up with some. I wanted to make sure that my goals were sound before trying to implement them. >To draw an analogy, it's as if you have a room full of unwashed >people. No, that's the Linux crowd. [gr&d] >around and saying "my, those folks sure reek, are we all in agreement >that bathing them would be a *really good idea*?" or you can start Actually, the message that the "UNIX goals" was in reply to was instead saying that it would be a bad idea. >So, as I mentioned before, what we've been over so many times are the >goals. We all know we have unwashed people and we all know that >they'd smell a lot better clean. What we need to handle here is the >problem Mike talked about, where one guy stands up and declares "OK, >by god, I've located some plastic piping and I know where the river >is! Who will join me in hooking it all up and creating a pipeline?" >[dead silence] Well, I've volunteered to help, as has one other gentleman other than Mike, I believe. What was it you said about only one or two visionaries getting it started? "Ladies and gentlemen, the supply of great leaders has been canceled due to a shortage of devoted followers." Happy hacking, joelh -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 16 01:10:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA21897 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 01:10:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA21892 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 01:10:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id EAA18515; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 04:10:38 -0400 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 04:10:38 -0400 Message-Id: <199706160810.EAA18515@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199706160748.DAA17985@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> (message from Joel Ray Holveck on Mon, 16 Jun 1997 03:48:18 -0400) Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. x-url: http://www.red-bean.com/~nemo x-attribution: nemo x-foobar: Do not clog intellect's sluices with bits of knowledge of questionable uses. Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 03:48:18 -0400 From: Joel Ray Holveck Precedence: first-class Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu The other Joel... Oh, there are only two Joels in existance? Really? Actually, there are two people named Joel who live in whatever house I happen to live in. (Why else would the Roman numeral `II' in my name be used?) You can't even say that there are only two people named Joel who have an account @gnu.ai.mit.edu: duality:~$ grep Joel /etc/passwd joelll:*:9019:12:Joel Herda:/home/fsg/j/joelll:/usr/local/bin/tcsh joelh:*:9844:12:Joel Ray Holveck:/home/gp4/joelh:/usr/local/bin/bash devnull:*:9892:11:Joel N. Weber II,Chaotic Obfuscator,:/home/fsf/devnull:/usr/local/gnubin/bash duality:~$ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 16 02:10:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA23937 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 02:10:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA23932 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 02:10:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA12332 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 02:10:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706160910.CAA12332@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Oh, is Plugin Night Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 02:10:50 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Amaya seems to support plugins and I think is going to be okay for FreeBSD. They use the following format to invoke plugins: In other words, the key off the HTML tag "IMG" to trigger the calls to the plugins. Got the Unix MIDI plugin almost working . Right now the logo comes up and then the apps beeps 8) It is supposed to play the mission impossible midi file -- Oh well guess is going to have to wait till tomorrow. Good Night , Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 16 02:46:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA25354 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 02:46:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA25349 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 02:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id TAA11418; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 19:12:13 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706160942.TAA11418@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. In-Reply-To: <199706160552.BAA16911@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> from Joel Ray Holveck at "Jun 16, 97 01:52:34 am" To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 19:12:13 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu, molter@logic.it, adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au, vas@vas.tomsk.su, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joel Ray Holveck stands accused of saying: > >Bloody hard, bucko boy. There isn't enough meta-information > >associated with them to derive everything you need to know > >automagically, so you have to embed this information somewhere higher > >up the chain. This becomes unfun very fast, as as soon as the file > >format/usage changes your tools suffer from version skew. > > Most of the stuff is fairly static. When was the last time that the > resolv.conf format changed? Have a look at NetBSD. Then consider the sysconfig/rc.conf changeover. Then consider that if we want this tool to be anything like easy to support, it has to be flexible. > As for the stuff started in /etc/rc, I'm going to go out on a limb > here and assume that if we can get keep things coordinated enough to > have a sane configuration file, then we can keep a fairly simple > structure graph for it together. That's why I was thinking of using > Lisp for this; it's very easy to organize dynamic graphs and whatnot. Once you get over language fetishism, what you end up deciding you want is a language that lets you write at about the same rate you think, and in a similar fashion. Most reasonably advanced languages will let you do this. I could maintain that Tcl is ideal for the implementation I'm using, because I can keep the entire object structure (node names, list of methods and implementation functions) in a single array, and use variable substitution to construct the indices. You could probably do this a hundred different ways, depending on the language in question. Each would work. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 16 02:51:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA25574 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 02:51:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shadows.aeon.net (bsdchat@shadows.aeon.net [194.100.41.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA25569 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 02:51:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bsdchat@localhost) by shadows.aeon.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) id MAA17173 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 12:50:44 +0300 (EET DST) From: mika ruohotie Message-Id: <199706160950.MAA17173@shadows.aeon.net> Subject: and star trek for all! In-Reply-To: <11838.866420330@orion.webspan.net> from Gary Palmer at "Jun 15, 97 08:18:50 pm" To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 12:50:44 +0300 (EET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Has anyone bitched at Paramount for the good areas of the star trek > web page being accessible to MSN members only? That, IMHO, is about as > low as you can go :-( Not only will it likely not work with Netscape > on non M$ platforms, but you need to pay M$ to get at it. So much for > the ``information superhighway'' ... it's only a highway if you are > driving a car made by M$ these days. yay! now you're talking, we gotta convince them that they should choose better... but just how are we able to get like 10000 people to email them about that issue? preferably during one or two days. where should we "advertise"? > Gary mickey From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 16 04:12:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA29075 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 04:12:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA29070 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 04:12:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA18807; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 04:11:20 -0700 (PDT) To: Michael Smith cc: adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 16 Jun 1997 17:06:22 +0930." <199706160736.RAA10372@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 04:11:20 -0700 Message-ID: <18803.866459480@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I _really_ need to talk about how make the "funding" concept work. In > particular, I need to sort out whether it's feasible to take people > like Adrian here and sub-contract him to do some of the work. Sure. Once we figure out the rough costs and I have an actual budget arranged, how it's spent is really a very open-ended affair. > Is this viable? As the VC instigator, do you have any specific > expectations about how the venture should be organised? I would expect a team leader to be elected (or one to push himself forward and declare himself as such :-) and some initial goals agreed to, said leader then breaking the task into more manageable chunks and either taking them himself or subcontracting other bits out. Who does the work isn't so important as making sure we know what work really needs to be done and that someone is signed up for it who won't just flake out later. To put it another way, I think certain projects have gone as far as they can on purely volunteer labor and now we need to decide how to take them on more seriously. I made that decision about the web pages fairly recently and hired a web designer to reorganize them. Once the decision was made to spend some money, it took less than 5 weeks total to come up with some tanglible results, and I think that they speak for themselves. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 16 04:15:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA29148 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 04:15:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA29143 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 04:15:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA18823; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 04:14:41 -0700 (PDT) To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu, molter@logic.it, adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au, vas@vas.tomsk.su, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 16 Jun 1997 03:48:18 EDT." <199706160748.DAA17985@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 04:14:41 -0700 Message-ID: <18819.866459681@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >I also know about GUILE's plans to put a mini-C environment on top in > >order to pave over these issues, but I haven't seen that bear much > >fruit yet. It's still just an idea. > > Which issues? Can you be more specific? The issue of having to write in LISP - heck, take a look at RMS's comments on this in the GUILE documentation for a better synopsis than I can give you. :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 16 04:42:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA00264 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 04:42:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obiwan.psinet.net.au (adrian@for.a.good.time.call.adrian.austnet.org [203.19.28.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA00256 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 04:42:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by obiwan.psinet.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA10218; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 19:21:51 +0800 (WST) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 19:21:51 +0800 (WST) From: Adrian Chadd To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. In-Reply-To: <17474.866434930@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > I'm confused - are you offering money here or not? :) > > I think we have our leader already, now we just need to fund his work. Uhm.. me? Err.. no. :) If someone wants to PAY me even a small amount, I'll for sure put in the time required. Curious, where can I grab a copy of the -config archives? Are they avaliable for FTP? Thanks, -- Adrian Chadd | "Unix doesn't stop you from doing | stupid things because that would | stop you from doing clever things" From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 16 04:42:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA00282 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 04:42:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from agora.rdrop.com (root@agora.rdrop.com [199.2.210.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA00254 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 04:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA29027 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 04:42:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) id NAA04801; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 13:40:34 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 13:40:34 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199706161140.NAA04801@bitbox.follo.net> From: Eivind Eklund To: Michael Smith CC: jkh@time.cdrom.com, joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, molter@logic.it, adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au, vas@vas.tomsk.su, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Michael Smith's message of Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:25:43 +0930 (CST) Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. References: <8841.866419524@time.cdrom.com> <199706160055.KAA08401@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying: > > > > This is all well and good, and we've been here before several times > > over the years, but who is going to do the work? Who is going to > > write all this nifty GUI stuff which takes over the job done by all of > > Windows' nifty GUI stuff for installing and configuring the system? > > > > You? :-) > > Me, with any luck. Last exam for this semester today. Yay! Now, if > anyone wants to fund me for this exercise... 8) Want: yes. Can: no. Not right now, anyway :-( > Note I have received a total of 0 (zzero) responses to my most recent > posting to the -config mailing list regarding the architectural > prototype for the server side of the configuration framework. Am I > supposed to take this as a sign of encouragement? Possibly, yes. That at least means nobody has any objections :) (I'll try to look it over; I haven't read that list because I don't have a personal interest in the technical sides of configuration, just in having configuration-tools available for FreeBSD that let me avoid Windows...) Eivind. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 16 04:48:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA00498 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 04:48:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.gbdata.com (USR1-1.detnet.com [207.113.12.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA00493 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 04:48:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from gclarkii@localhost) by main.gbdata.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA00821 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 06:48:58 -0500 (CDT) From: Gary Clark II Message-Id: <199706161148.GAA00821@main.gbdata.com> Subject: Re: TCL To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 06:48:58 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <17921.866444155@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Jun 15, 97 11:55:55 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Easy: RMS does not see the value of a hybrid approach to scripting > languages - he wants a general purpose mousetrap which allows you to > code your entire application, not just the "user mutable" parts, in > the scripting language and he's pushing another scheme variant as the > solution. If that is all people used TCL for it would be fine. But they insist on writing LARGE programs in it. I've got the TCL books here and have played with it a fair amount. It gives me hives.... Yes, I know that some of you people dislike PERL the way I dislike TCL, but so far I've not seen any apps that TCL could do that PERL could not. (Maybe expect, but I've seen PERL code that does the same thing). If it comes down to it, I load the TCL module and write TCL inside my PERL app:) > > I and many others disagree with his argument that the hybrid approach > is fundamentally flawed and wrong, and we DO see value in this > approach which TCL has taken. All of RMS's general criticisms of TCL > fall under the "it's not good as a general implementation language" > category, e.g. he notes things like the parsing overhead or TCL's lack > of generalized data types, and all that shows is that he's pursuing > different goals and is incorrectly lambasting TCL's "failure" to > achieve those goals. Again Jordan, it comes back to people touting it as a "General Purpose" language. If we keep it as a scripting languauge for C apps (like aXe) then all is well. > TCL is intended for a different purpose, a > purpose which RMS does not consider valuable, and it's therefore > rather hard to argue with him on this topic when one side is > yelling "Apples!" and the other "Oranges!" Gary -- Gary Clark II (N5VMF) | I speak only for myself and "maybe" my company gclarkii@GBData.COM | Member of the FreeBSD Doc Team Providing Internet and ISP startups - http://WWW.GBData.com for information FreeBSD FAQ at ftp://ftp.FreeBSD.ORG/pub/FreeBSD/docs/FAQ.latin1 From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 16 04:59:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA01009 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 04:59:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA00999 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 04:59:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cliff.concentric.net (cliff [206.173.119.90]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.5/(97/05/21 3.30)) id HAA25771; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 07:58:44 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from shag (ts001d07.sal-ut.concentric.net [206.173.156.19]) by cliff.concentric.net (8.8.5) id HAA14476; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 07:58:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <33A52A22.E6F14B85@concentric.net> Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 05:57:22 -0600 From: Joshua Fielden Organization: Shaggy Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Joel N. Weber II" CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [sales@insat.zoneit.com: Re: Hawaii? Protocol documentation?] X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199706142254.SAA08540@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joel N. Weber II wrote: > > Incidentally, it's a bit interesting that these parallel port devices > work on Macs. I can't remember ever seeing a Mac with a parallel port... Man, there's a connector/adapter for everything. When I worked at Global Village, I had a Platinum hooked up to my DOS-box via a DIN-8/DB-25 converter.... -- SCSI is *not* magic. There are many technical reasons why it is occasionally nessicary to sacrifice a small goat to your SCSI chain. Joshua Fielden From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 16 05:23:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA02137 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 05:23:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA02129 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 05:23:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id FAA19206; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 05:23:00 -0700 (PDT) To: Adrian Chadd cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 16 Jun 1997 19:21:51 +0800." Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 05:23:00 -0700 Message-ID: <19202.866463780@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Uhm.. me? Err.. no. :) > If someone wants to PAY me even a small amount, I'll for sure put in the > time required. OK, I was just trying to figure out exactly what you were signing up for. :-) I think payment to several people can probably be arranged, and Mike and I are right now just trying to figure out what the true costs are. > Curious, where can I grab a copy of the -config archives? Are they > avaliable for FTP? Unfortunately not. This is enough of a pain that I've finally decided to do something about it, in fact, and the mailing list archives are now copying into ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/mail-archives Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 16 05:32:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA02587 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 05:32:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA02564 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 05:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id FAA19253; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 05:32:21 -0700 (PDT) To: Gary Clark II cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TCL In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 16 Jun 1997 06:48:58 CDT." <199706161148.GAA00821@main.gbdata.com> Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 05:32:20 -0700 Message-ID: <19249.866464340@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > If that is all people used TCL for it would be fine. But they insist on > writing LARGE programs in it. I've got the TCL books "A good fortran programmer can write fortran in any language." Sure there are people who misuse it. There are probably also some really good statistics which show how many people injure themselves each year in trying to use screwdrivers for pounding nails or otherwise flagrantly misusing a tool for purposes of expediency. It doesn't prove anything other than the fact that humans are perverse monkeys who often willfully do stupid things. :) > If it comes down to it, I load the TCL module and write TCL > inside my PERL app:) No comment. :) > Again Jordan, it comes back to people touting it as a "General Purpose" > language. If we keep it as a scripting languauge for C apps (like aXe) > then all is well. No one who actually knows how to *use* TCL is touting it as a general purpose language, Gary, and you're simply listening to the wrong people. You've added nothing to the "to TCL or not to TCL" argument here. :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 16 05:40:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA03206 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 05:40:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obiwan.psinet.net.au (adrian@for.a.good.time.call.adrian.austnet.org [203.19.28.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA03189 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 05:40:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by obiwan.psinet.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA10396; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 20:19:46 +0800 (WST) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 20:19:46 +0800 (WST) From: Adrian Chadd To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. In-Reply-To: <19202.866463780@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > OK, I was just trying to figure out exactly what you were signing up > for. :-) I think payment to several people can probably be arranged, > and Mike and I are right now just trying to figure out what the true > costs are. Ah.. ok. Means I'll be going for that laptop within the next 11 days... (anyone wanna lend me one in Perth ? :) > > Curious, where can I grab a copy of the -config archives? Are they > > avaliable for FTP? > > Unfortunately not. This is enough of a pain that I've finally decided > to do something about it, in fact, and the mailing list archives > are now copying into ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/mail-archives *sigh* Will they be updating in 'realtime'? I've seen people put them up for http access, that might be an idea. Cya, -- Adrian Chadd | "Unix doesn't stop you from doing | stupid things because that would | stop you from doing clever things" From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 16 06:11:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA04408 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 06:11:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA04403 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 06:11:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id GAA19395; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 06:11:44 -0700 (PDT) To: Adrian Chadd cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 16 Jun 1997 20:19:46 +0800." Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 06:11:44 -0700 Message-ID: <19391.866466704@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Unfortunately not. This is enough of a pain that I've finally decided > > to do something about it, in fact, and the mailing list archives > > are now copying into ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/mail-archives > > *sigh* > Will they be updating in 'realtime'? I've seen people put them up for > http access, that might be an idea. Mmmmmmaybe. :) It all depends on what I can set up. I'll see whether or not rsync is up to the task here shortly. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 16 06:26:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA04892 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 06:26:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shadows.aeon.net (bsdchat@shadows.aeon.net [194.100.41.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA04877 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 06:26:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bsdchat@localhost) by shadows.aeon.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) id QAA19332 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 16:25:41 +0300 (EET DST) From: mika ruohotie Message-Id: <199706161325.QAA19332@shadows.aeon.net> Subject: irc.freebsd.org To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 16:25:41 +0300 (EET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk what would it take to get it on EFNet? it'd make things _much_ easier... *hint* mickey From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 16 07:02:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA06913 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 07:02:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kremvax.demos.su (kremvax.demos.su [194.87.0.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA06891 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 07:02:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by kremvax.demos.su (8.6.13/D) from 0@skraldespand.demos.su [194.87.0.19] with ESMTP id RAA00949; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 17:57:27 +0400 Received: by skraldespand.demos.su id RAA04043; (8.8.5/D) Mon, 16 Jun 1997 17:58:51 +0400 (MSD) Message-ID: <19970616175851.26442@skraldespand.demos.su> Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 17:58:51 +0400 From: "Mikhail A. Sokolov" To: mika ruohotie Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: irc.freebsd.org References: <199706161325.QAA19332@shadows.aeon.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.65_p2,4-7,10-11,15,18,21-22 Organization: Demos Company, Ltd., Moscow, Russian Federation. X-Point-of-View: Gravity is myth, - the earth sucks. Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Jun 16, 1997 at 04:25:41PM +0300, mika ruohotie wrote: > what would it take to get it on EFNet? I doubt if you folks want it, - not to speak about the increase of traffic, irc.freebsd.org is kind of specialized server, IMHO. Not to mention it'll take a lot more time to make the box coexist politicaly and follow effnet's rules. > > it'd make things _much_ easier... *hint* Things like? > mickey -mishania From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 16 08:37:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA11943 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 08:37:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hermes.metisllc.com (hermes.metisllc.com [207.33.129.151]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA11933 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 08:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from huynh@localhost) by hermes.metisllc.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA07313 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 08:34:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 08:34:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Minh Huynh Message-Id: <199706161534.IAA07313@hermes.metisllc.com> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: wu-ftpd compiling Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I don't know if anyone out there has successfully compiled wu-ftp version 2.4 on freebsd version 2.2.1 I have tried compiling wu ftp but I had lots of compiling errors. I wonder if anyone can help me. Thanks Minh From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 16 08:39:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA12066 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 08:39:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toth.ferginc.com (toth.ferginc.com [205.139.23.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA12061 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 08:39:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by toth.ferginc.com (You/Wish) with SMTP id LAA20107; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:34:57 -0400 (EDT) Posted-Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:34:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:34:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Branson Matheson X-Sender: branson@toth.hq.ferg.com Reply-To: Branson Matheson To: "Mikhail A. Sokolov" cc: mika ruohotie , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, bsdnet@lamb.net Subject: Re: irc.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <19970616175851.26442@skraldespand.demos.su> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Mikhail A. Sokolov wrote: > On Mon, Jun 16, 1997 at 04:25:41PM +0300, mika ruohotie wrote: > > what would it take to get it on EFNet? > > I doubt if you folks want it, - not to speak about the increase of traffic, > irc.freebsd.org is kind of specialized server, IMHO. Not to mention it'll > take a lot more time to make the box coexist politicaly and follow effnet's > rules. Umm... as a user of BSDNet... I would vote nay to this... EFnet has too much yack and flack. If you want to add irc.freebsd.org to EFNet.. I am fairly sure that those of us on BSDNet will remove that server from our configs. > > it'd make things _much_ easier... *hint* > Things like? and for whom? - branson ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Branson Matheson " If you are falling off of a mountain, System Administrator You may as well try to fly." Ferguson Enterprises - Delenn, Mimbari Ambassador From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 16 09:00:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA13108 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 09:00:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gudgeon.csv.warwick.ac.uk (gudgeon.csv.warwick.ac.uk [137.205.148.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA13101 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 09:00:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Mr M P Searle Message-Id: <1699.199706161537@gudgeon.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Received: by gudgeon.csv.warwick.ac.uk id QAA01699; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 16:37:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: FREEBSD ON TELEVISION PROGRAM In-Reply-To: from Adrian Chadd at "Jun 15, 97 10:56:14 pm" To: adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au (Adrian Chadd) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 16:37:04 +0100 (BST) Cc: kaveman@magna.com.au, ksmm@cybercom.net, chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, Julian Jenkins wrote: > > > > Of course, I still envy her for having her own Unix workstation to play > > > around on at home. I'd never have been prepared for such an emergency > > > without FreeBSD at home. :-) > > > > Well her grandfather was a mad billionaire. This apparently had some side > > benifits. > > I'd love the source to that filemanager. Along with the source to that > extra-funky 3D tank game you get. MMmmm.. first thing I do when I get my > hands on an Indy is to play bztank :) You don't need an Indy - see http://reality.sgi.com/crs/bzflag.html. It's being ported to Windows 95/NT. It's nearly all OpenGL, so should be very easy to port to any system. As to the filemanager, it's freely available at http://www.sgi.com/Fun/free/cool_sw_01.html, but only as SGI binaries. The README doesn't say anything about whether it uses Iris GL or OpenGL - you could probably find out from a binary archive, but the ftp site is *really* slow - took several minutes to get the 4K readme. > > SGI don't give out source for those things, do they? > Any chance we could actually GET the source to play with, as I think some > cool stuff like that would be .. well.. cool. :) > From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 16 11:02:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA19475 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:02:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA19467 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:02:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706161545.LAA12791@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Received: forwarded by SMTP 1.6.0. Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:45:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Branson Matheson cc: "Mikhail A. Sokolov" , mika ruohotie , chat@freebsd.org, bsdnet@Lamb.net, bsdnet@alameda.net Subject: Re: irc.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Branson Matheson wrote: > On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Mikhail A. Sokolov wrote: > > > On Mon, Jun 16, 1997 at 04:25:41PM +0300, mika ruohotie wrote: > > > what would it take to get it on EFNet? > > > > I doubt if you folks want it, - not to speak about the increase of traffic, > > irc.freebsd.org is kind of specialized server, IMHO. Not to mention it'll > > take a lot more time to make the box coexist politicaly and follow effnet's > > rules. > > Umm... as a user of BSDNet... I would vote nay to this... EFnet > has too much yack and flack. If you want to add irc.freebsd.org to > EFNet.. I am fairly sure that those of us on BSDNet will remove that > server from our configs. > > > > it'd make things _much_ easier... *hint* > > Things like? > > and for whom? > > - branson > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Branson Matheson " If you are falling off of a mountain, > System Administrator You may as well try to fly." > Ferguson Enterprises - Delenn, Mimbari Ambassador > I doubt Dima would move that server anyway sonce he's already got one server on efnet. Jamie Bowden System Administrator, iTRiBE.net From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 16 11:03:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA19644 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA19632 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:03:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA23621; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 13:03:00 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 13:03:00 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: Kevin Eliuk cc: Joel Ray Holveck , msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Complaining at Warner Brothers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Kevin Eliuk wrote: > BTW do you have any suggestions on the better resources to learn SGML? http://www.sil.org/sgml/sgml.html The first couple headings on the page have pointers many good on-line introductions and tutorials. On my bookshelf, the most heavily used SGML item is "Developing SGML DTDs: From Text to Model to Markup" by Eve Maler and Jeanne el Andaloussi. Next would be Goldfarb's "SGML Handbook" but with Maler's book, I only refer to Goldfarb for more esoteric things. The trouble with a lot of writing on SGML is that SGML is treated in isolation, or when treated in the context of an application, the treatment is at the "executive" level rather than a user or implementor level. SGML does not stand on its own--it is a standard aimed at making other tools more powerful by standardizing data and markup representation, so treating it in isolation leaves a lot of people with a feeling of "okay, now what?" -john From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 16 14:46:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA03909 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 14:46:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crh.cl.msu.edu (crh.cl.msu.edu [35.8.1.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA03839 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 14:44:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from henrich@localhost) by crh.cl.msu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA22438; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 17:44:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970616174409.32299@crh.cl.msu.edu> Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 17:44:09 -0400 From: Charles Henrich To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: New page layout (Www.freebsd.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.2-RELEASE X-PGP-Fingerprint: 1024/F7 FD C7 3A F5 6A 23 BF 76 C4 B8 C9 6E 41 A4 4F Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nice! Two thumbs up to whomever did it! -Crh Charles Henrich Michigan State University henrich@msu.edu http://pilot.msu.edu/~henrich From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 16 15:28:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA06233 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 15:28:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cc-server9.massey.ac.nz (cc-server9.massey.ac.nz [130.123.128.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA06214 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 15:28:40 -0700 (PDT) From: C.R.Harding@massey.ac.nz Message-Id: <199706162228.PAA06214@hub.freebsd.org> Received: from tpc-pc1 by cc-server9 with SMTP(PP); Tue, 17 Jun 1997 10:19:32 +1200 Comments: Authenticated sender is Organization: TV Production Centre, Massey University To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 10:19:29 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: and star trek for all! Reply-to: C.R.Harding@massey.ac.nz Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199706160950.MAA17173@shadows.aeon.net> References: <11838.866420330@orion.webspan.net> from Gary Palmer at "Jun 15, 97 08:18:50 pm" X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk mika ruohotie wrote: > > Has anyone bitched at Paramount for the good areas of the star > > trek web page being accessible to MSN members only? That, IMHO, is > > now you're talking, we gotta convince them that they should choose > better... but just how are we able to get like 10000 people to email > them about that issue? This may now be less of an issue - M$ have announced plans to pull the plug on MSN. -- C. -- Craig Harding Acting Director, Massey University Television Production Centre "I don't know about God, I just think we're handmade" - Polly From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 16 16:29:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA08682 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 16:29:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obiwan.psinet.net.au (adrian@for.a.good.time.call.adrian.austnet.org [203.19.28.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA08675 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 16:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by obiwan.psinet.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA11385; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 07:07:50 +0800 (WST) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 07:07:50 +0800 (WST) From: Adrian Chadd To: mika ruohotie cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: irc.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199706161325.QAA19332@shadows.aeon.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, mika ruohotie wrote: > what would it take to get it on EFNet? > > it'd make things _much_ easier... *hint* Uhmm.. err.. no. I *like* a network with lots of computer geeks that can sit around and chat aimlessly about nothing in particular (except DMT *giggle*) .. if you move it to efnet we'll start getting lamers doing something like this : *aYANNI* hi *aYANNI* 16f..u *REAL* m\f *orca* Hello Adrian *silver* hi *yapar* Where are you from??? *sweetguy* hi *chrisly* hi *Bendeguz* hi ad *Bendeguz* Hello ADRIAN! *gatinho* hi adrian *gatinho* where are you from? *gatinho* im from Brazil *gatinho* and you? I jump onto BSDnet for exactly that reason - a lame-free (well, almost .. but the lame ones are expelled quickly) network. Also - when people come in and ask for help, doing a /list doesn't pull up 14253 channels. *** Channel Users Topic *** #C 1 *** #BBS 1 *** #fbsd-cafe 1 *** Prv 1 *** #fei_suppo 2 *** #default 2 *** #ferg_sa 1 *** #rdy 2 *** #freebsd 34 Hi, I'm not a L33T person, but I play one on IRC. Isn't that difficult is it? :) -- Adrian Chadd | "Unix doesn't stop you from doing | stupid things because that would | stop you from doing clever things" From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 16 19:14:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA16770 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 19:14:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tyger.inna.net (root@tyger.inna.net [206.151.66.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA16752 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 19:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from caught.inna.net (caught.inna.net [206.151.66.7]) by tyger.inna.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA10210; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 22:21:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 22:13:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Arnold To: Adrian Chadd cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: irc.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I *like* a network with lots of computer geeks that can sit around and > chat aimlessly about nothing in particular (except DMT *giggle*) .. Um, DMT, um, Disk Management Tool, Yeah Thats it! Yeah! +-----------------------------------------------+ : Tom Arnold - No relation to Rosanne : +-----------------------------------------------+ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 16 19:14:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA16794 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 19:14:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA16784 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 19:14:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA22143; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 19:11:53 -0700 (PDT) To: Charles Henrich cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New page layout (Www.freebsd.org) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 16 Jun 1997 17:44:09 EDT." <19970616174409.32299@crh.cl.msu.edu> Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 19:11:53 -0700 Message-ID: <22140.866513513@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Nice! Two thumbs up to whomever did it! Look down at the bottom of the page - she doesn't read this list, so you might want to send your congradulations to her personally. ;) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 16 21:07:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA21277 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 21:07:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obiwan.psinet.net.au (adrian@for.a.good.time.call.adrian.austnet.org [203.19.28.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA21271 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 21:07:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by obiwan.psinet.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA11757; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 11:47:25 +0800 (WST) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 11:47:25 +0800 (WST) From: Adrian Chadd To: Thomas Arnold cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: irc.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Thomas Arnold wrote: > > I *like* a network with lots of computer geeks that can sit around and > > chat aimlessly about nothing in particular (except DMT *giggle*) .. > > Um, DMT, um, Disk Management Tool, Yeah Thats it! Yeah! Uhmm Tom.. Hmmm.. :) Oh.. I forgot to mention "Cisco". Someone said not a day goes by where Cisco isn't mentioned in #freebsd .. :) Enough of this .. back to work. :) -- Adrian Chadd | "Unix doesn't stop you from doing | stupid things because that would | stop you from doing clever things" From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 16 21:17:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA21671 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 21:17:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA21665 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 21:17:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id NAA14511; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:46:39 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706170416.NAA14511@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: FREEBSD ON TELEVISION PROGRAM In-Reply-To: <1699.199706161537@gudgeon.csv.warwick.ac.uk> from Mr M P Searle at "Jun 16, 97 04:37:04 pm" To: csubl@csv.warwick.ac.uk (Mr M P Searle) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:46:38 +0930 (CST) Cc: adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au, kaveman@magna.com.au, ksmm@cybercom.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mr M P Searle stands accused of saying: > > > > I'd love the source to that filemanager. Along with the source to that > > extra-funky 3D tank game you get. MMmmm.. first thing I do when I get my > > hands on an Indy is to play bztank :) > > You don't need an Indy - see http://reality.sgi.com/crs/bzflag.html. It's being ported to Windows 95/NT. It's nearly all OpenGL, so should be very easy to > port to any system. OK, so where do we get the source code? -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 16 23:14:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA25509 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 23:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA25492; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 23:14:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA21590; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 23:13:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706170613.XAA21590@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG cc: multimedia@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Plugin and Amaya is a go 8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 23:13:58 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Now this is what I have done. I downloaded the Unix Midi Plugin which uses timidiy to play midi files. Compile the plugin using netscape's PluginSDK30b5. Copy the shared object to amaya's plugin directory and tested the functionality with a sample test page: http://rah.star-gate.com/foo.htm which basically plays back the midi file missio_1.mid (mission impossible theme). For further info on the Unix Midi Plugin see: http://www.rhichome.bnl.gov/~hoff/pluginInfo.htm For info on the World Wide Web Consortium's amaya see: http://www.w3.org/Amaya/ Enjoy, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 17 00:36:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA00452 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 00:36:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA00447 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 00:36:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA00533 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 09:36:48 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA07887; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 16:22:12 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970615162210.HT14588@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 16:22:10 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FREEBSD ON TELEVISION PROGRAM References: <199706130309.XAA09371@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Iain Templeton on Jun 13, 1997 16:54:10 +1000 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Iain Templeton wrote: > I was quite impressed by the time it took the SGI to reboot and be ready > after the power came back on. Must've been a few seconds (unless I got a > weird version of the telly the other week). They could boot almost as fast as they could crash. :-} The shortest uptime for an Indy i've seen didn't last to launch the xdm login window... And, you could totally damage it by pulling the power plug. The old EFS (which was current by the time of Jurassic Park) was the most fragile Unix filesystem i've ever seen, even more fragile than the old S51K of SVR3.2. I've seen an Indy throwing away its Xserver after a crash... (and the Xserver surely never was written to, so one would wonder why it was affected at all). -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 17 00:37:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA00498 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 00:37:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA00489 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 00:37:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA00535 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 09:37:05 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA07899; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 16:25:19 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970615162516.FH27182@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 16:25:16 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FREEBSD ON TELEVISION PROGRAM References: <199706131748.NAA00646@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199706131748.NAA00646@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu>; from Joel Ray Holveck on Jun 13, 1997 13:48:52 -0400 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Joel Ray Holveck wrote: > This *is* Irix, after all. It's probably the most GUI-oriented Unix > around. It's probably also the most insecure Unix around, by time of shipment. You can even open a window already on the login screen (including an input-only window sniffing the password). Of course, you can do it from any machine in the Internet if you're stupid enough to put such a machine with the default setup directly onto the Internet... As you can see, i didn't learn to love IRIX very much. I hope they did it better with IRIX 6, version 5 was a plain horror story. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 17 00:38:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA00594 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 00:38:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shadows.aeon.net (bsdchat@shadows.aeon.net [194.100.41.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA00586 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 00:38:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bsdchat@localhost) by shadows.aeon.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) id KAA05667 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 10:37:45 +0300 (EET DST) From: mika ruohotie Message-Id: <199706170737.KAA05667@shadows.aeon.net> Subject: Re: irc.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from Branson Matheson at "Jun 16, 97 11:34:55 am" To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 10:37:45 +0300 (EET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Mikhail A. Sokolov wrote: > > > it'd make things _much_ easier... *hint* > > Things like? > and for whom? well, things like sudden random questions about something important, and something that person doesnt wish to flood the mailings-lists with... me being sort of irc-addict, and certainly not the only one of those who uses freebsd, i can see it'd help those situations. ofcourse, there is the EFNet #FreeBSD and #unix, sure. but specially the #FreeBSD there seems to be rather inable to help me, either none of those people know, or they are not present, or they do not care to answer. fact that i've hanged on the channel like weeks havent changed that. #unix has proved to be more helpful, but not everyone there uses FBSD... also, many of the people who have first hand information, that being you dev-people, generally tend to be on the "wrong" irc-net on my point of view. though since i _do_ have several years of personal experience what a pain in the ass EFNet is, i understand your decision. i also realize that generally, it's probably the case that the dev-people dont really have time to irc, which i understand even more. sure, we all want FreeBSD, not people hanging on irc... but, well, i just, hmm, ok, so i have to admit it. i was just thinking loud, coz it'd be slightly difficult for me run another irc on another xterm for that other network, considering i have only 14" monitor, and yes, i was just trying to seek my own good... :p uh, forget i asked, ok? =) > - branson mickey From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 17 00:49:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA01116 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 00:49:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shadows.aeon.net (bsdchat@shadows.aeon.net [194.100.41.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA01111 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 00:49:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bsdchat@localhost) by shadows.aeon.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) id KAA05745 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 10:48:23 +0300 (EET DST) From: mika ruohotie Message-Id: <199706170748.KAA05745@shadows.aeon.net> Subject: Re: irc.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from Adrian Chadd at "Jun 17, 97 07:07:50 am" To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 10:48:23 +0300 (EET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > if you move it to efnet we'll start getting lamers doing > something like this : > *aYANNI* hi > *aYANNI* 16f..u > *REAL* m\f > *orca* Hello Adrian > *silver* hi > *yapar* Where are you from??? > *sweetguy* hi > *chrisly* hi > *Bendeguz* hi ad > *Bendeguz* Hello ADRIAN! > *gatinho* hi adrian > *gatinho* where are you from? > *gatinho* im from Brazil > *gatinho* and you? /window new level msgs (and i add 'log on' to that line) is your friend. (assuming you use real ircii -client) ofcourse one could also ignore msgs from everyone else but listed people... > I jump onto BSDnet for exactly that reason - a lame-free (well, almost .. > but the lame ones are expelled quickly) network. but for a long time irc-addict, that's where major part of one's pals are... yes, i know the advantages of a "closed" network... > Isn't that difficult is it? > > :) right. well, ok, i give up, running one more irc gives me 50 lines scrolling space, which is better than the same amount shared with several channels... ofcourse, i still have to change highlight to another xterm... > Adrian Chadd | "Unix doesn't stop you from doing mickey From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 17 01:09:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA01701 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 01:09:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA01694 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 01:09:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA00580 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 09:50:45 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA12473; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 07:21:52 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970616072152.PZ31751@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 07:21:52 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. References: <199706152321.TAA14966@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> <8841.866419524@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <8841.866419524@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Jun 15, 1997 17:05:24 -0700 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > What stops FreeBSD from being the next NeXTStep is not a crisis of > ideas, it's a crisis of coders. ...and one should add, that's not since there are no good coders around, but rather since anybody who's got the knowledge to design and code all this is already at the stage where he can get anything done faster without the GUI. This dramatically reduces the pressure of doing any work into this direction (since this J. Random Coder can now of course also do other, perhaps more appealing, projects). -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 17 01:09:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA01766 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 01:09:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA01739 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 01:09:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA00581 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 09:52:07 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA12518; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 07:35:00 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970616073500.FD44237@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 07:35:00 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. References: <199706160016.UAA15226@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> <199706160105.KAA08436@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199706160105.KAA08436@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>; from Michael Smith on Jun 16, 1997 10:35:12 +0930 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Michael Smith wrote: > *ahem*. Have any of you looked at StarOffice yet? Yes. I hate it, and will delete it again quickly. It looks like Windows. Antisocial programming all over the place, right from the beginning with this d*mned picture window in the middle you can't get rid of. That's anything else but an X11 program, and it looks totally terrible unless your window manager has about the same look and feel as StarOffice. (But people are not one like the other, and X11 users got used to be able to choose their look&feel by selecting the window manager. The tale that each person is replaceable by the next one is an invention of the militaries.) Also, it's way too slow. It uses the same braindead idea like winlose programs -- binary files for a _text_ program? What sense does it make at all to use a binary file for a text processor? I don't really like Applixware very much either (the word processor is still one abstraction level below things like LaTeX or troff -ms, and the output looks a lot worse than the high quality i'm used to see from troff or TeX), but i like it ten times more than StarOffice. And to the least, they're using an intelligible format for their files. I gotta use it recently (since the output was required to be M$-compatible), and i ended up writing an applix-mode.el, and editing the texts inside, yeah, you know which editor. :) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 17 01:10:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA01839 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 01:10:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA01834 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 01:10:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA00673 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 10:10:20 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA12661; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 08:27:29 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970616082728.UM59261@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 08:27:28 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. References: <199706160016.UAA15226@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> <199706160538.BAA16814@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199706160538.BAA16814@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu>; from Joel Ray Holveck on Jun 16, 1997 01:38:10 -0400 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Joel Ray Holveck wrote: > If that were the case, then JRL couldn't use Win95 for PPP > connections, and that is very common. In my experience, something > like "--in:--in:-${NAME}^M-word:-${PASSWD}^M" works perfectly fine > with most ISPs. Unless these ISPs would start to use M$ crap... maybe even SINIX (Unix variant by Siemens-Nixdorf). The script had to look like: --name:--name:-${NAME}^M-wort:-${PASSWD}^M there. "Benutzername:", "Kennwort:", in case you wonder. -- Yeah, Mickeysoft is so fond of things like this. They even got their mailers to use AW: (Antwort) instead of the de-facto standard RE: in their german versions, which leads to "Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: original subject" crap... -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 17 01:15:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA02047 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 01:15:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA02040 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 01:15:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA00770 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 10:15:17 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA14251; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 21:20:06 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970616212005.CG12178@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 21:20:05 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TCL References: <17921.866444155@time.cdrom.com> <199706161148.GAA00821@main.gbdata.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199706161148.GAA00821@main.gbdata.com>; from Gary Clark II on Jun 16, 1997 06:48:58 -0500 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Gary Clark II wrote: > Yes, I know that some of you people dislike PERL the way I dislike > TCL, but so far I've not seen any apps that TCL could do that PERL could > not. (Maybe expect, but I've seen PERL code that does the same thing). I don't know Tcl (very much), and people who know me also know that i'm rather a Perl bigot. Anyway, i think Tcl is good in what it has been intended for by Ousterhout: an embeddable language. Sure, Perl 5 also has a C interface, but i would probably stop using Perl for my project by the time being tempted to require such an interface. Likewise, i couldn't imagine to the least would ever be usefully done in Perl, but i think a Tcl scripting for some C framework can really do its thing. As one of the Joels wrote here, each language for what it has been designed for. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 17 02:53:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA06363 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 02:53:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kremvax.demos.su (kremvax.demos.su [194.87.0.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA06357 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 02:53:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by kremvax.demos.su (8.6.13/D) from 0@skraldespand.demos.su [194.87.0.19] with ESMTP id NAA21695; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:47:41 +0400 Received: by skraldespand.demos.su id NAA15525; (8.8.5/D) Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:49:06 +0400 (MSD) Message-ID: <19970617134906.53472@skraldespand.demos.su> Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:49:06 +0400 From: "Mikhail A. Sokolov" To: mika ruohotie Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: irc.freebsd.org References: <199706170748.KAA05745@shadows.aeon.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.65_p2,4-7,10-11,15,18,21-22 Organization: Demos Company, Ltd., Moscow, Russian Federation. X-Point-of-View: Gravity is myth, - the earth sucks. Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jun 17, 1997 at 10:48:23AM +0300, mika ruohotie wrote: > > if you move it to efnet we'll start getting lamers doing > ofcourse one could also ignore msgs from everyone else but listed people... > > I jump onto BSDnet for exactly that reason - a lame-free (well, almost .. > > but the lame ones are expelled quickly) network. As I mentioned, BSDnet IRC network seems to be dedicated to one special reason/topic, thus it's open as normal IRC network. > but for a long time irc-addict, that's where major part of one's pals are... Let's assimilate BSDnet into IRCnet also, - gives huge amount of 'good old pals' also. This is the way to awoid BSDnet to be accepted by EFFnet ;-) > yes, i know the advantages of a "closed" network... Aha, by closing I/i:lines, and making them as restricted as ident'ed u@h can be you can do this, but the only problem is it's useless. > > Isn't that difficult is it? As it is usually done in the world, the following folks have to decide, and I never doubt in their wisdom: 421 Your host is irc.FreeBSD.ORG[burka.rdy.com], running version 2.8.21+CSr29 256 Administrative info about irc.FreeBSD.ORG 257 Dima Ruban (rdy) dima@FreeBSD.ORG 258 Alternative Contact - 259 Charlie Root, root@FreeBSD.ORG > > well, ok, i give up, running one more irc gives me 50 lines scrolling > space, which is better than the same amount shared with several channels... > ofcourse, i still have to change highlight to another xterm... > > Adrian Chadd | "Unix doesn't stop you from doing > mickey Seems like the following discussion is useless also, btw. -mishania From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 17 03:59:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA08637 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 03:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labs.usn.blaze.net.au (labs.usn.blaze.net.au [203.17.53.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA08632 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 03:59:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labs.usn.blaze.net.au (local [127.0.0.1]) by labs.usn.blaze.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA00632; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 20:58:58 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199706171058.UAA00632@labs.usn.blaze.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:05:24 MST." <8841.866419524@time.cdrom.com> X-Face: (W@z~5kg?"+5?!2kHP)+l369.~a@oTl^8l87|/s8"EH?Uk~P#N+Ec~Z&@;'LL!;3?y Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 20:58:55 +1000 From: David Nugent Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > * Goals (roughly by importance) > > [ some points, many of which have been covered in previous discussion ] > > This is all well and good, and we've been here before several times > over the years, but who is going to do the work? Who is going to > write all this nifty GUI stuff which takes over the job done by all of > Windows' nifty GUI stuff for installing and configuring the system? If you haven't already, take a look at http://www.kde.org/. The project is young yet and tends to be a little unstable, somewhat "linux centric" in many ways, but they are indeed trying. I'm not saying it is THE solution nor everyone's cup of tea, but for someone looking for a simple to manage user-friendly desktop environment with a set of tools and applications based on a consistent user-interface, it's a very fine start. As soon as it settles down to a stable release, I'll commit a port. Otherwise, right now it's still a fast-moving target. :) Regards, David David Nugent - Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia Voice +61-3-9791-9547 Data/BBS +61-3-9792-3507 3:632/348@fidonet davidn@freebsd.org davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn/ From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 17 04:28:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA09798 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 04:28:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toth.ferginc.com (toth.ferginc.com [205.139.23.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA09769 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 04:27:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by toth.ferginc.com (You/Wish) with SMTP id HAA29414; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 07:26:07 -0400 (EDT) Posted-Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 07:26:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 07:26:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Branson Matheson X-Sender: branson@toth.hq.ferg.com Reply-To: Branson Matheson To: mika ruohotie cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: irc.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199706170737.KAA05667@shadows.aeon.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, mika ruohotie wrote: > > On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Mikhail A. Sokolov wrote: > > > > it'd make things _much_ easier... *hint* > > > Things like? > > and for whom? > > well, things like sudden random questions about something important, and > something that person doesnt wish to flood the mailings-lists with... > > me being sort of irc-addict, and certainly not the only one of those > who uses freebsd, i can see it'd help those situations. Agreed... and no one that comes on and asks a freebsd question is turned away. We have a good number of people with lots of FreeBSD experience. And we encourage good questions to be asked. If you have a problem, feel free to ask there, if we cannot answer it... we will point you in the right direction. Believe me ... we are not irc bigots, we just don't like all the yack from efnet. - branson ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Branson Matheson " If you are falling off of a mountain, System Administrator You may as well try to fly." Ferguson Enterprises - Delenn, Mimbari Ambassador From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 17 13:18:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA04649 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:18:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA04634 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:18:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id WAA10587 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 22:18:02 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.6.12) with UUCP id WAA03259 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 22:17:56 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.5/keltia-uucp-2.9) id VAA01327; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 21:21:54 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970617212154.04493@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 21:21:54 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FREEBSD ON TELEVISION PROGRAM References: <199706131748.NAA00646@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> <19970615162516.FH27182@uriah.heep.sax.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 In-Reply-To: <19970615162516.FH27182@uriah.heep.sax.de>; from J Wunsch on Sun, Jun 15, 1997 at 04:25:16PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#3385 AMD-K6 MMX @ 208 MHz Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to J Wunsch: > As you can see, i didn't learn to love IRIX very much. I hope they > did it better with IRIX 6, version 5 was a plain horror story. Looking into Bugtraq closely, I am afraid not. Irix is still full of holes. Up to recently, they were mostly symlinks problems but now that someone had found a way to exploit the various buffer overflow that plague the code, it is even more fun than ever. Must be the most exploitable Unix ever, even better than HP-SUX (and that says a lot). -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #20: Fri Jun 13 00:16:13 CEST 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 17 13:18:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA04681 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:18:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA04631 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:18:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id WAA10590 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 22:18:03 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.6.12) with UUCP id WAA03260 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 22:17:56 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.5/keltia-uucp-2.9) id VAA01345; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 21:28:28 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970617212828.14962@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 21:28:28 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. References: <199706160016.UAA15226@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> <199706160538.BAA16814@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> <19970616082728.UM59261@uriah.heep.sax.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 In-Reply-To: <19970616082728.UM59261@uriah.heep.sax.de>; from J Wunsch on Mon, Jun 16, 1997 at 08:27:28AM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#3385 AMD-K6 MMX @ 208 MHz Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to J Wunsch: > Mickeysoft is so fond of things like this. They even got their > mailers to use AW: (Antwort) instead of the de-facto standard RE: in > their german versions, which leads to "Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: original > subject" crap... ...and in French, you end up with "Rép :" (yes, with a space between the word and the colon; that's correct in french but not really in mail agents' language). Mutt has an unofficial patch for that very "feature", you can specify a regexp... reply_regexp Type: string Default: "^(re|aw):[ \t]+" A regular expression used to recognize reply messages when threading and replying. The default value corresponds to the English "Re:" and the German "Aw:". -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #20: Fri Jun 13 00:16:13 CEST 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 17 18:33:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA20629 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 18:33:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from suntan.tandem.com (suntan.tandem.com [192.216.221.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA20622 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 18:33:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Greg Lehey Received: from papillon.lemis.com by suntan.tandem.com (8.6.12/suntan5.970212) id SAA05139; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 18:33:07 -0700 Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.4/8.6.12) id JAA00340; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 09:08:15 +0800 (CST) Message-Id: <199706180108.JAA00340@papillon.lemis.com> Subject: Re: TCL In-Reply-To: <19970616212005.CG12178@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Jun 16, 97 09:20:05 pm" To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 09:08:13 +0800 (CST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Reply-to: grog@FreeBSD.ORG (Greg Lehey) WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/~grog X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch writes: > As Gary Clark II wrote: > >> Yes, I know that some of you people dislike PERL the way I dislike >> TCL, but so far I've not seen any apps that TCL could do that PERL could >> not. (Maybe expect, but I've seen PERL code that does the same thing). > > I don't know Tcl (very much), and people who know me also know that > i'm rather a Perl bigot. > > Anyway, i think Tcl is good in what it has been intended for by > Ousterhout: an embeddable language. Sure, Perl 5 also has a C > interface, but i would probably stop using Perl for my project by the > time being tempted to require such an interface. Likewise, i couldn't > imagine to the least would ever be usefully done in Perl, but i think > a Tcl scripting for some C framework can really do its thing. > > As one of the Joels wrote here, each language for what it has been > designed for. I won't disagree with any of this. I just disagree with the concept of having to use different languages for different purposes. (dons asbestos underwear) As far as I am concerned, there are three languages: (Bourne) shell, awk, and C. Sure, it takes more effort to write some things in C than it would in perl or tcl, but you don't get boxed in so easily. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 17 18:59:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA21697 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 18:59:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA21690; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 18:59:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id LAA19495; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:29:46 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706180159.LAA19495@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: TCL In-Reply-To: <199706180108.JAA00340@papillon.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Jun 18, 97 09:08:13 am" To: grog@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:29:46 +0930 (CST) Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey stands accused of saying: > > I won't disagree with any of this. I just disagree with the concept > of having to use different languages for different purposes. (dons > asbestos underwear) As far as I am concerned, there are three > languages: (Bourne) shell, awk, and C. Sure, it takes more effort to > write some things in C than it would in perl or tcl, but you don't get > boxed in so easily. Speaking of boxing, watch out for the ears next time you come 'round 8) There are things that a good extension language like Tcl can do that would require an astronomical amount of effort to achieve in C; using such a language lets you leverage the fact that someone else has already done the work, and given you a very flexible, generalised means for accessing it. > Greg -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 17 20:10:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA24642 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 20:10:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from suntan.tandem.com (suntan.tandem.com [192.216.221.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA24636; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 20:10:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Greg Lehey Received: from papillon.lemis.com by suntan.tandem.com (8.6.12/suntan5.970212) id UAA17173; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 20:09:47 -0700 Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.4/8.6.12) id KAA00545; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:15:34 +0800 (CST) Message-Id: <199706180215.KAA00545@papillon.lemis.com> Subject: Re: TCL In-Reply-To: <199706180159.LAA19495@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from Michael Smith at "Jun 18, 97 11:29:46 am" To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:15:02 +0800 (CST) Cc: grog@FreeBSD.ORG, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Reply-to: grog@FreeBSD.ORG (Greg Lehey) WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/~grog X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael Smith writes: > Greg Lehey stands accused of saying: >> >> I won't disagree with any of this. I just disagree with the concept >> of having to use different languages for different purposes. (dons >> asbestos underwear) As far as I am concerned, there are three >> languages: (Bourne) shell, awk, and C. Sure, it takes more effort to >> write some things in C than it would in perl or tcl, but you don't get >> boxed in so easily. > > Speaking of boxing, watch out for the ears next time you come 'round > 8) Don't worry, I'll probably forget to bring them with me :-) Now why do you think I talked about asbestos underwear? I was obviously targeting the wrong area. > There are things that a good extension language like Tcl can do that > would require an astronomical amount of effort to achieve in C; using > such a language lets you leverage the fact that someone else has > already done the work, and given you a very flexible, generalised > means for accessing it. Sure, I said that it would take more effort. I also find that re-using other people's functions takes some effort, and as time goes on, I've found that less and less worthwhile. Apart from the fact that they often need significant mods, you might find 5 or 10 candidates which you need to evaluate before you decide *which* one you want to modify. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 02:59:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA08186 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 02:59:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from carlton.innotts.co.uk (root@carlton.innotts.co.uk [194.176.128.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA08159 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 02:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [194.176.130.9] (serialA08.innotts.co.uk [194.176.130.9]) by carlton.innotts.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA29178; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:58:06 +0100 (BST) X-Sender: robmel@mailhost.innotts.co.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <8841.866419524@time.cdrom.com> References: Your message of "Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:21:13 EDT." <199706152321.TAA14966@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:53:54 +0100 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu From: Robin Melville Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:21:13 -0400 Joel wrote: >Let's look at a profile of J. Random Luser and his interface >requirements in the modern OS world, shall we? >... [* and so on *] At 1:05 am +0100 16/6/97, Jordan K. Hubbard replied: >...What stops FreeBSD from being the next NeXTStep is not a crisis of >ideas, it's a crisis of coders. Somebody needs to *build* the better >mousetrap before people will come... I'm a little puzzled by the whole thrust of this one. The thesis seems to be that FreeBSD should challenge Windows & the Mac as a desktop system for all. The fate of NeXT, for example, and the market position of Sun and SGI, should really concentrate minds on this issue more than it seems to be doing. These commercial systems have/had teams of *paid* developers maintaining their OS's. Software companies employ teams of *paid* programmers to develop commercial quality apps for them. Despite this, NeXT was never a serious challenger for even Apple; Sun & SGI occupy niche markets and don't compete head-to-head for J Random (L)user's ComputersRus bucks. Gates is busily out-investing everyone else on his horizon with the intention of getting the whole desktop market. FreeBSD and Linux are something else *entirely*. It may be a bit of a cheek to say this to you guys, but you'd have to be bonkers to try to compete with M$ in this way. What does FreeBSD consist of, and what do your many fans do with it? Who would seriously plan to use FreeBSD as an alternative to Win95/Office97 or MacOS for wordprocessing, spreadsheets, DTP/origination, and all the other tedious office-style work. These commercial products might be bloated, unstable, and crappy in all sorts of ways but in terms of their feature list and useability they're way ahead of anything available for FreeBSD or Unix. The very best stuff that's available for FreeBSD users are the back-end server things and the development tools, and these are excellent. Not only because it allows top-class IT for small, poor organisations like mine for example (and half of Eastern Europe by the looks of it), but because it's democratic and open in a way that would give Microsoft nightmares. For these reasons FreeBSD will carry the unix flag long after HP/UX, IRIX, SCO et al have been killed off by NT. I'm all in favour of easier configuration tools and everything else that people spend their hard-earned time doing. But let's not pretend that an X office suite is going to be the sofware of choice for the multitude. In fact, the whole idea that 2million people would be mailing questions@freebsd.org to ask how to plug in their modem, etc. should be good enough reason for pausing for thought. Best regards, Robin. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robin Melville, Addiction Information Services Nottingham Alcohol & Drug Team Tel: +44 (0)115 952 9478 Fax: +44 (0)115 952 9421 work: robmel@nadt.org.uk home: robmel@innotts.co.uk Pages: http://www.innotts.co.uk/~robmel (home page) http://www.innotts.co.uk/nadt (substance misuse pages) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 03:16:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA09263 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 03:16:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA09241 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 03:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA16425; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 03:15:13 -0700 (PDT) To: Robin Melville cc: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:53:54 BST." Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 03:15:12 -0700 Message-ID: <16421.866628912@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I'm a little puzzled by the whole thrust of this one. The thesis seems to > be that FreeBSD should challenge Windows & the Mac as a desktop system for > all. The fate of NeXT, for example, and the market position of Sun and SGI, > should really concentrate minds on this issue more than it seems to be > doing. > .. > [ arguments refuting the practicality of such a thesis elided ] All of this would be true if I saw FreeBSD or any UNIX as trying to compete as a desktop OS against Apple or M$, and if I gave that impression at any point then I'm truly sorry because that's only about 180 degrees away from my actual opinion. I do NOT think that FreeBSD should try to compete as a desktop OS. That is entirely the wrong direction to go in and the war for the desktop was already lost ages ago. It's over, UNIX got its ass completely kicked in the desktop OS arena, live with it. That's my motto. None of this has anything to do with the need for good GUI-based installation and maintainence tools, however. Point and click setup and configuration is no longer a special selling point in an OS any more than the steering wheel in your car is considered a luxury control option. It's an expected item in all vehicles, perhaps excepting certain experimental craft and cheap, home-built go-carts that one steers with the feet, and unless we want people thinking our OS is either a scientific curiousity or a go-cart, we need to offer the same options. If my point still isn't clear, then perhaps taking the following survey will help: 1. NT is gaining portions of the network server market, largely because: A) It out-performs the competition. B) It's economical and makes light demands of your hardware. C) It looks a lot like Windows95 and people gain the impression that it's easy to administer. If your answer was (C) then you're beginning to understand why putting time into providing basic services like a usable graphical desktop and GUI-oriented admin tools does *not* constitute going after the desktop market, it constitutes nothing less than ensuring the long-term survival of the technology. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 04:49:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA12398 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 04:49:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsd.fs.bauing.th-darmstadt.de (bsd.fs.bauing.th-darmstadt.de [130.83.63.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA12393 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 04:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from campa.panke.de (anonymous213.ppp.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.213]) by bsd.fs.bauing.th-darmstadt.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA28295; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 13:45:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from wosch@localhost) by campa.panke.de (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA00911; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:59:19 +0200 (MET DST) To: John Fieber Cc: Wes Peters , Andrew Perry , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: new look References: From: Wolfram Schneider Date: 18 Jun 1997 12:59:16 +0200 In-Reply-To: John Fieber's message of Sat, 14 Jun 1997 12:15:52 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Lines: 20 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk John Fieber writes: > > Same for www.freebsd.org; I've been meaning to mention it for a couple > > of days now. Cool! Informative, interesting, and points out many of > > FreeBSDs best points right away. I give it two processors up! ;^) > > A good illustration the importance of presentation/interface > design. A lot of people have been saying things like this, yet no > new material was added to the site. :) Well, it was more than a layout change. We changed the viewpoint, from a Unix hacker view who know what he are looking for to a FreeBSD beginners or someone who never used FreeBSD (Windows/Linux users). IMHO a good change, but what does the ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ mean in index.html? -- Wolfram Schneider http://www.apfel.de/~wosch/ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 05:10:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA13117 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 05:10:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA13111; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 05:10:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706181211.IAA10652@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Received: forwarded by SMTP 1.6.0. Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 08:10:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Greg Lehey cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: TCL In-Reply-To: <199706180108.JAA00340@papillon.lemis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Greg Lehey wrote: > I won't disagree with any of this. I just disagree with the concept > of having to use different languages for different purposes. (dons > asbestos underwear) As far as I am concerned, there are three > languages: (Bourne) shell, awk, and C. Sure, it takes more effort to > write some things in C than it would in perl or tcl, but you don't get > boxed in so easily. So your next FreeBSD book will be in C, sh, and awk? Should make for a very interesting read. :) Jamie Bowden System Administrator, iTRiBE.net From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 06:24:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA16083 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 06:24:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA16076; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 06:24:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA08414; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 08:24:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 08:24:10 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: Wolfram Schneider cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, meganm@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: new look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On 18 Jun 1997, Wolfram Schneider wrote: > Well, it was more than a layout change. We changed the viewpoint, from > a Unix hacker view who know what he are looking for to a FreeBSD > beginners or someone who never used FreeBSD (Windows/Linux > users). Yes, it is a big change in viewpoint. But my point was that it came about only through changes in presentation of content that was already there. Likewise, two pieces of software with identical functionality can differ dramatically in usability merely by changes in interface. > IMHO a good change, but what does the > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > mean in index.html? A hideous corruption of HTML brought to you by our friends at Microsoft. The addition of hacks like this have seriously retarded the devopment of stylsheets which directly address web developers complaints about lack of control in a way that is FAR more flexible than invented tags or attributes could provide. Meanwhile, MS and NS have convinced the masses that hack jobs like are the solution. The web used to be about sharing of information irrespective of computer systems used in the sharing. Doing that demands data standards first, then applications that work with that standard. Much of the software industry operates in the reverse--standardize on an application and then mash your data to fit. SGML's power rests in encouraging markup that can be easily mapped into different applications. To do this, it is essential that there be a clean separation of data markup and application specific information, in this case formatting instructions. Stylsheets maintain that clean separation. Tags such as and
, along with blatant misuse of other tags to achive visual effect, corrupts that distinction and thus corrupts the data itself, rendering it considerably less useful. Most of the FreeBSD web pages are machine generated from "real" SGML sources, so the use of such hideous HTML markup practices does not reperesent a corruption of the original data. Those pages that are hand-crafted HTML do not represent a substantial data investment, and without style sheets, there really is no alternative to making the pages look interesting visually. We do, however, take care to make sure that markup for one specific application (eg Netscape) does not adversly affect other applications. Oh, and the "ARIAL,HELVETICA" is a suggestion to the browser that the enclosed text should be renederd using either the Arial typeface or the Helvetica typeface. -john From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 07:33:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA19467 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 07:33:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from online.no (pilt.online.no [193.212.1.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA19460 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 07:33:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from paulja@localhost) by online.no (8.7.6/8.7.3) id QAA23694; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 16:33:41 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199706181433.QAA23694@online.no> From: "Geir Eivind Mork" To: "chat@freebsd.org" Date: Wed, 18 Jun 97 13:48:25 +0100 Reply-To: "Geir Eivind Mork" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: PMMail 1.92 For OS/2 X-Tag: <| IceTag/2 v2.6 |> by Ahmad Al-Nusif (morpheus@moc.kw) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: user of FreeBSD Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'm a user of FreeBSD (a quite new one too), and after playing along with it for some time "I feld in love with it", When I see pages with 'Best viewed with Netscape' and 'This site is powred with FreeBSD' and so on, I wished I could show FreeBSD my respect by putting a 'User of FreeBSD', 'Addicted to BSD' or some similar.. I know you guys have a good fantasy so you sure can come up with something. Mr. John Fieber thoguth it would have been a good addon to the icon collection, and told me ask you guys, and so I did :) I cannot use Powred with FreeBSD on my page, cause the ISP uses SCO Unix. (I'm just a regular guy). And remember to use the cute little bsd daemon then, I just love it :) I have the feeling it was the reason why I chose FreeBSD over Linux in the first place :) BTW; The reason why this letter isn't written on my FreeBSD Box, is because I haven't put up the network on it yet. I have some problems with the network card. _tDr_ (gemork@online.no) ... The vermine is a small black and white relative of the lemming, found in the cold Hublandish regions. Its skin is rare and highly valued, especially by the vermine itself; the selfish little bastard will do anything rather than let go of it. -- Discworld wildlife (Terry Pratchett, Sourcery) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 08:30:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA22494 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 08:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from federation.addy.com ([207.239.68.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA22489 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 08:30:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slip129-37-113-212.pa.us.ibm.net (slip129-37-113-212.pa.us.ibm.net [129.37.113.212]) by federation.addy.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA24912; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:29:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199706181529.LAA24912@federation.addy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "chat@freebsd.org" , "Geir Eivind Mork" Date: Wed, 18 Jun 97 11:29:16 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Francisco Reyes's Registered PMMail 1.9 For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: OS/2 users going to FreeBSD? :-) Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 18 Jun 97 13:48:25 +0100, Geir Eivind Mork wrote: >From: "Geir Eivind Mork" >To: "chat@freebsd.org" >Date: Wed, 18 Jun 97 13:48:25 +0100 >X-Mailer: PMMail 1.92 For OS/2 >Subject: user of FreeBSD >I'm a user of FreeBSD (a quite new one too), I have seen several OS/2 users using/switching to FreeBSD (I am one of them). I can understand why (lack of IBM marketting), but I wonder how this migration compares to other OS. Does anyone has any guess on percentage of people coming to FreeBSD from other OS? (notice I said guess. I don't think it is possible to come up with any real numbers ). The one thing that I don't know if there is something as good in FreeBSD as in OS/2 are email software. I use PmMail and soon to get PMInews. From what I have heard the other email software for OS/2 are algo great. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 08:32:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA22589 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 08:32:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from federation.addy.com (federation.addy.com [207.239.68.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA22583 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 08:32:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slip129-37-113-212.pa.us.ibm.net (slip129-37-113-212.pa.us.ibm.net [129.37.113.212]) by federation.addy.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA25611 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:32:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199706181532.LAA25611@federation.addy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "FreeBSD Chat List" Date: Wed, 18 Jun 97 11:32:15 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Francisco Reyes's Registered PMMail 1.9 For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: When FreeBSD Desktop? Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On the announcement for 2.2 mentions that this will be used for a "FreBSD Desktop" with software from XIgraphics. Any ideas when this will be out? From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 10:05:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA27794 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:05:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.logic.it (gal.logic.it [195.120.151.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA27785 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:05:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [195.120.151.20] by gal.logic.it (NTMail 3.02.12) with ESMTP id ka210350 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 19:03:57 +0200 Received: by dumbwinter.ecomotor.it (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0weO9j-00004jC; Wed, 18 Jun 97 19:04 MET DST Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 19:04:27 +0200 (MET DST) From: Marco Molteni X-Sender: molter@dumbwinter.ecomotor.it To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems. In-Reply-To: <16421.866628912@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I'm a little puzzled by the whole thrust of this one. The thesis seems to > > be that FreeBSD should challenge Windows & the Mac as a desktop system for > > all. The fate of NeXT, for example, and the market position of Sun and SGI, > > should really concentrate minds on this issue more than it seems to be > > doing. > > .. > > [ arguments refuting the practicality of such a thesis elided ] > > All of this would be true if I saw FreeBSD or any UNIX as trying to > compete as a desktop OS against Apple or M$, and if I gave that > impression at any point then I'm truly sorry because that's only about > 180 degrees away from my actual opinion. > > I do NOT think that FreeBSD should try to compete as a desktop OS. > That is entirely the wrong direction to go in and the war for the > desktop was already lost ages ago. It's over, UNIX got its ass > completely kicked in the desktop OS arena, live with it. That's my > motto. Maybe you guys remember that I posted the first "To UNIX or not to UNIX" email. He he he, I must say I've been impressed by all the follow-ups, quickly running away from my original thesis, in my opinion ;-) Probably I don't master english enough well to explain fully what I meant, so I thank very much Robin Melville for his posting, with which I agree perfectly. To summarize: Unix is power, no fancy windows. And yes, Jordan, you and many other people gave me the impression that FreeBSD has to compete with win95 also in the desktop arena or, anyway, in the windoze concept of "user friendliness". I'm VERY glad I misunderstood you all! ;-))))))) Also, I'd like to thank all the people who made FreeBSD possible. --- Marco Molteni Computer Science student at the Universita' di Milano, Italy. "You can't trust code that you did not totally create yourself. (Especially code from companies that employ people like me)." Ken Thompson, 1983 Turing Award Lecture. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 10:14:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA28191 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hercules.globalpac.com ([206.170.230.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA28186 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:14:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from GPTNEWS.GLOBALPAC.COM ([207.215.173.28]) by hercules.globalpac.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-13502) with SMTP id AAA176 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:17:46 -0700 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:11:44 -0700 (PDT) From: RHS Linux User To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: freebsd and linux on same hd? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I would like to put FreeBSD on my current computer, but it would have to share a hard drive with Linux...has anyone tried this configuration yet? or is the best solution to just delete Linux? I'm thinking of using Lilo to handle the bootup between the two, but i haven't tried it yet... TIA Tony. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 10:52:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA00135 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pwrtc.com (pwrtc.com [206.230.144.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA29995 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:52:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from legba.pwrtc.com (legba.pwrtc.com [206.230.144.223]) by pwrtc.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA04421 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:52:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (from pazuzu@localhost) by legba.pwrtc.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA05123 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:57:07 -0500 (EST) From: "T. D. Pazuzu" Message-Id: <199706181757.MAA05123@legba.pwrtc.com> Subject: BBs's? To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:57:07 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I was wondering if anyone had any idea what (if any) BBS software is available for FreeBSD. I looked at the ports collection, and found *NOTHING*. I'm interested in putting up a BBS (I'll write my own software if need be!) and also setting up a private Usenet network so that people can discuss things without SPAM! From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 10:56:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA00389 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:56:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sol.ashland.edu (sol.ashland.edu [198.30.217.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA00381 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:56:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from warp4.ashland.edu for jroberts@ashland.edu by sol.ashland.edu (8.6.12/931002.1044) id NAA14294; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 13:55:57 -0400 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 13:59:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeff Roberts To: Francisco Reyes cc: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: When FreeBSD Desktop? In-Reply-To: <199706181532.LAA25611@federation.addy.com> Message-ID: X-X-Sender: jroberts@mail.ashland.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Francisco Reyes wrote: > > On the announcement for 2.2 mentions that this will be used for a > "FreBSD Desktop" with software from XIgraphics. > Any ideas when this will be out? > And, what will it entail, exactly? This sounds interesting. Jeff ______________________________________________________________________ jroberts@ashland.edu >>>> Jeff Roberts <<<< strider@acm.org Public Key = http://www.ashland.edu/~jroberts/txt/pubkey.asc ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 11:51:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA03306 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:51:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA03292 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:51:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id UAA05310; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:51:03 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA23204; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:47:59 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970618204759.OC16769@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:47:59 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (chat@freebsd.org) Cc: gemork@online.no (Geir Eivind Mork) Subject: Re: user of FreeBSD References: <199706181433.QAA23694@online.no> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199706181433.QAA23694@online.no>; from Geir Eivind Mork on Jun 18, 1997 13:48:25 +0100 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Geir Eivind Mork wrote: > And remember to use the cute little bsd daemon then, I just love it > :) I have the feeling it was the reason why I chose FreeBSD over > Linux in the first place :) Hmm, well, this allows me a shameless plug here: Remember, the BSD daemon (and the Linux penguin, but who of the listening people cares anyway? ;-) can be got as plushies. They are sold for not much more than self-costs (which is however high enough, since they are genuine high-quality handwork). Ask Martin Welk at mw@FreibergNet.de for details, or look at www.liebscher.FreibergNet.de. (I know Martin personally, but i'm not related to Liebscher&Partner.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 11:52:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA03386 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:52:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from online.no (pilt.online.no [193.212.1.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA03337 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:51:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from paulja@localhost) by online.no (8.7.6/8.7.3) id UAA21225; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:50:48 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199706181850.UAA21225@online.no> From: "Geir Eivind Mork" To: "chat@freebsd.org" , "Francisco Reyes" Date: Wed, 18 Jun 97 20:49:02 +0100 Reply-To: "Geir Eivind Mork" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: PMMail 1.92 For OS/2 X-Tag: <| IceTag/2 v2.6 |> by Ahmad Al-Nusif (morpheus@moc.kw) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: OS/2 users going to FreeBSD? :-) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 18 Jun 97 11:29:16, Francisco Reyes wrote: >>X-Mailer: PMMail 1.92 For OS/2 >>I'm a user of FreeBSD (a quite new one too), >I have seen several OS/2 users using/switching to FreeBSD (I am one >of them). I have seen more switch to Linux, but both from Os/2 and Windows 95/NT. >I can understand why (lack of IBM marketting), but I wonder how this >migration compares to other OS. I'm thinking of doing a research about that, asking a number of Linux and FreeBSD users about what they went from, why and how they like their new os and if they use more than that os and how much they use linux/freebsd. I moved cause I felt like trying something new, plus that I've always been attracted to unix. >Does anyone has any guess on >percentage of people coming to FreeBSD from other OS? (notice I said >guess. I don't think it is possible to come up with any real numbers To FreeBSD from other OS'es.. I guess 95% :) But after using FreeBSD for some days now, I can the basic, I know more how to control the computer than I did in Os/2 and so on, all I need now is to get FTE for FreeBSD. :) >FreeBSD as in OS/2 are email software. I use PmMail and soon to get >PMInews. From what I have heard the other email software for OS/2 are >algo great. MR/2 ICE, I have heard that too (They're also coming with a newsreader soon).. PMInews has some bugs, but after a couple of fixes it'll be what PMMail is to Mail. I haven't seen a mail program like PMMail, and I doubt I'll :) Two of the boxes I've got running here is using Os/2, the last one is running FreeBSD. I'll use FreeBSD for WWW, FTP,NEWS, iRC etc, but I'll keep up with PMMail. It might be because two others use PMMail. Well, If I find something real good on the BSD I might switch to it but.. PMMail is great. But I was using 4os/2 as my primary shell in Os/2, how can I emulate it's features (except alias) in BSD (I use the standar shell in BSD).. Like the TAB feature, the doskey-alike feature (browse previous commands) etc. And btw; Can I use some sort of macro in the prompt ? Like I did in dos/4os? Like the famous $p$g? I haven't figured out something like that from the man(uals) _tDr_ (gemork@online.no) ... One of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that, lacking zero, they had no way to indicate successful termination of their C programs. --Robert Firth From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 11:56:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA03535 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:56:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tyger.inna.net (root@tyger.inna.net [206.151.66.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA03530 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:56:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from caught.inna.net (caught.inna.net [206.151.66.7]) by tyger.inna.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA12874; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 15:03:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 14:54:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Arnold To: mika ruohotie cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: irc.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199706170748.KAA05745@shadows.aeon.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > well, ok, i give up, running one more irc gives me 50 lines scrolling > space, which is better than the same amount shared with several channels... > > ofcourse, i still have to change highlight to another xterm... Cheat like me and buy a dumb-terminal to run IRC in. :-) +-----------------------------------------------+ : Tom Arnold - No relation to Rosanne : : SysAdmin/Pres - TBI, Ltd ( inna.net ) : : The Middle Peninsula's Internet Connection : +-----------------------------------------------+ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 12:08:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA04183 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:08:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tyger.inna.net (root@tyger.inna.net [206.151.66.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA04160 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:07:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from caught.inna.net (caught.inna.net [206.151.66.7]) by tyger.inna.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA14295; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 15:15:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 15:07:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Arnold To: "T. D. Pazuzu" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BBs's? In-Reply-To: <199706181757.MAA05123@legba.pwrtc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, T. D. Pazuzu wrote: > I was wondering if anyone had any idea what (if any) BBS software is > available for FreeBSD. I looked at the ports collection, and found > *NOTHING*. Citadel/UX compiles with a little tweaking. DayDream BBS has been ported and I'm thinking of running it unstead of Citadel. Assuming my personnal domain isn't on hold due to someone ( no names mentioned ) forgetting to pay for it you can telnet to sysabend.org logon as sysabend passwd sysabend and see citadel. It isn't for everyone tho... Thats why I'm looking into running Daydream. I'm xyzzy on BSDNET. Stop by some time. A couple of us have been playing with BBS packages and one person is working on the beginnings of FreeBBS. +-----------------------------------------------+ : Tom Arnold - No relation to Rosanne : : SysAdmin/Pres - TBI, Ltd ( inna.net ) : : The Middle Peninsula's Internet Connection : +-----------------------------------------------+ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 12:13:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA04546 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:13:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lsmarso.dialup.access.net (lsmarso.dialup.access.net [166.84.254.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA04534 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:13:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lsmarso@localhost) by lsmarso.dialup.access.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA29849; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 15:12:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970618151223.08889@panix.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 15:12:23 -0400 From: "Larry S. Marso" To: Francisco Reyes , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OS/2 users going to FreeBSD? :-) References: <199706181529.LAA24912@federation.addy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 In-Reply-To: <199706181529.LAA24912@federation.addy.com>; from Francisco Reyes on Wed, Jun 18, 1997 at 05:01:48PM +0000 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Jun 18, 1997 at 05:01:48PM +0000, Francisco Reyes wrote: > > >From: "Geir Eivind Mork" > >To: "chat@freebsd.org" > >Date: Wed, 18 Jun 97 13:48:25 +0100 > >X-Mailer: PMMail 1.92 For OS/2 > >Subject: user of FreeBSD > > >I'm a user of FreeBSD (a quite new one too), > > I have seen several OS/2 users using/switching to FreeBSD (I am one > of them). I'm one of them, too (after a brief tour of Linux-land). OS/2 has a superior object oriented GUI, the server for which is multithreaded; X servers are not! (ready to receive technical FLAME if I'm mistaken). But I actually prefer off-the-shelf UNIX apps. > The one thing that I don't know if there is something as good in > FreeBSD as in OS/2 are email software. I use PmMail and soon to get > PMInews. From what I have heard the other email software for OS/2 are > algo great. > If you want the greatest e-mail system on earth (but non-gui), try MUTT (see /usr/ports/mail/mutt). If you want a very good gui e-mail system, try xfmail (/usr/ports again). -- Larry S. Marso lsmarso@panix.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 12:30:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA05587 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:30:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA05575 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:30:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA18603; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:29:34 -0700 (PDT) To: Jeff Roberts cc: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: When FreeBSD Desktop? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 18 Jun 1997 13:59:29 EDT." Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:29:34 -0700 Message-ID: <18600.866662174@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk CDE 1.1 + Xaccel 3.1 + FreeBSD. That's the basic idea. As to release dates, I don't know. Could be 2 weeks, could be 2 months. We're having a lot of trouble getting all the paperwork handled. :( > On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Francisco Reyes wrote: > > > > > On the announcement for 2.2 mentions that this will be used for a > > "FreBSD Desktop" with software from XIgraphics. > > Any ideas when this will be out? > > > > And, what will it entail, exactly? This sounds interesting. > > Jeff > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > jroberts@ashland.edu >>>> Jeff Roberts <<<< strider@acm.org > Public Key = http://www.ashland.edu/~jroberts/txt/pubkey.asc > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 12:47:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA06848 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:47:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [207.170.17.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA06843 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:47:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA03215; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 15:31:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: (jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id OAA05752; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 14:48:58 -0500 Message-ID: <19970618144857.51669@right.PCS> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 14:48:57 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Geir Eivind Mork Cc: "chat@freebsd.org" , Francisco Reyes Subject: Re: OS/2 users going to FreeBSD? :-) References: <199706181850.UAA21225@online.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: <199706181850.UAA21225@online.no>; from Geir Eivind Mork on Jun 06, 1997 at 08:49:02PM +0100 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Jun 06, 1997 at 08:49:02PM +0100, Geir Eivind Mork wrote: > But I was using 4os/2 as my primary shell in Os/2, how can I emulate it's > features (except alias) in BSD (I use the standar shell in BSD).. Like the > TAB feature, the doskey-alike feature (browse previous commands) etc. > > And btw; Can I use some sort of macro in the prompt ? Like I did in > dos/4os? Like the famous $p$g? I haven't figured out something like that > from the man(uals) Try one of the alternate shells. I personally prefer tcsh. -- Jonathan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 13:21:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA09083 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 13:21:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA09069 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 13:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706182022.QAA12265@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Received: forwarded by SMTP 1.6.0. Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 16:21:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: "Larry S. Marso" cc: Francisco Reyes , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OS/2 users going to FreeBSD? :-) In-Reply-To: <19970618151223.08889@panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Larry S. Marso wrote: > I'm one of them, too (after a brief tour of Linux-land). OS/2 has a > superior object oriented GUI, the server for which is multithreaded; X > servers are not! (ready to receive technical FLAME if I'm mistaken). > But I actually prefer off-the-shelf UNIX apps. I am one of those as well. OS/2's GUI is awesomely built. Too bad IBM hired their own marketing staff to sell it. Jamie Bowden System Administrator, iTRiBE.net From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 14:37:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA12716 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 14:37:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cliffy.statsci.com (root@cliffy.statsci.com [206.63.206.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA12710 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 14:36:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apple.statsci.com (apple [206.63.206.4]) by cliffy.statsci.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/Hub) with SMTP id OAA00904; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 14:35:52 -0700 Received: from apple.statsci.com [206.63.206.4] with smtp by apple.statsci.com with smtp (/\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1 #29.3 #3) id m0weSON-0006uQC; Wed, 18 Jun 97 14:35 PDT Message-Id: To: "Joel N. Weber II" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Plugin? (Re: Complaining at Warner Brothers? ) References: <199706160701.DAA17792@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 16 Jun 1997 03:01:47 -0400." <199706160701.DAA17792@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Reply-to: scott@statsci.com Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 14:35:50 -0700 From: Scott Blachowicz Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > No, plugins let the user extend the functionality of their software > without having to have the source, or the resources to build it. > > I fail to see where either of these would be huge advantages. One main advantage that I see is that it saves YOUR time. You wouldn't have to get bugged with maintaining the extension or with requests that you add an extension for a particular type of thing. It also lets me (as an end user at my site) extend the functionality of the software (by downloading & installing a plugin into my home directory) without having to go bug our (perpetually overloaded) IS staff to download, build and install an extension into the [presumably] site-wide software distribution just to support my specific needs du jour. It's just a lot less work for me to grab a file and stick it somewhere I have access to than it is to go persuade someone else to grab the extension, integrate it into the software's build tree, compile it and install it, then worry about problems introduced because of the global change. > I'm also realizing that I need to come up with an adaquate framework > in my code for these random pieces. And...at least one of those random pieces could be a "plugin extension" that someone else writes because they found it useful...:-)) > There is more to life than HTML and images :-) Really??? No way! Scott Blachowicz Ph: 206/283-8802x240 Mathsoft (Data Analysis Products Div) 1700 Westlake Ave N #500 scott@statsci.com Seattle, WA USA 98109 Scott.Blachowicz@seaslug.org From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 14:50:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA13457 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 14:50:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lightning.tbe.net (qmailr@lightning.tbe.net [208.208.122.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA13447 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 14:50:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 9619 invoked by uid 1010); 18 Jun 1997 21:45:17 -0000 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 17:45:16 -0400 (EDT) From: "Gary D. Margiotta" To: "T. D. Pazuzu" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BBs's? In-Reply-To: <199706181757.MAA05123@legba.pwrtc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I was wondering if anyone had any idea what (if any) BBS software is > available for FreeBSD. I looked at the ports collection, and found > *NOTHING*. > > I'm interested in putting up a BBS (I'll write my own software if need be!) > and also setting up a private Usenet network so that people can discuss > things without SPAM! Actually, if you are inteested, one of our customers is writing a BBS. The board isn't completely done yet, but from what I've seen it looks pretty decent. Right now the board is Linux native, since when he started writing it that was what he had, but since Debian was giving him so many problems loading, I almost had him convinced to run FreeBSD...the plan for the board is to be ported to as many flavours of UNIX as people request, and he was going to port it to FreeBSD first anyway, since we were going to implement it as a chat/BBS/Mud server. The board is supposed to be free, with the ability to write your own apps to plug into it as necessary, and they wanted to write applications and games for it. If you want more info, you can reply to me, or you can get them the following ways: E-mail: djw@tbe.net Web: http://www.openbbs.org (though there is really nothing on the page yet) -Gary Margiotta TBE Internet Services http://www.tbe.net From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 15:26:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA15714 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 15:26:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tyger.inna.net (root@tyger.inna.net [206.151.66.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA15709 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 15:25:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from caught.inna.net (caught.inna.net [206.151.66.7]) by tyger.inna.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA05855; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 18:33:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 18:25:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Arnold To: "Gary D. Margiotta" cc: "T. D. Pazuzu" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BBs's? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Gary D. Margiotta wrote: > E-mail: djw@tbe.net > Web: http://www.openbbs.org (though there is really nothing on the page > yet) Oh man! Now all we need is NetBBS and we have'em all! :-) +-----------------------------------------------+ : Tom Arnold - No relation to Rosanne : : SysAdmin/Pres - TBI, Ltd ( inna.net ) : : The Middle Peninsula's Internet Connection : +-----------------------------------------------+ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 17:10:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA20791 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 17:10:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalypso.cybercom.net (kalypso.cybercom.net [209.21.136.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA20780 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 17:10:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell1.cybercom.net (ksmm@shell1.cybercom.net [209.21.136.6]) by kalypso.cybercom.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA06863; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 19:49:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ksmm@localhost) by shell1.cybercom.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA05169; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:16:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:16:09 -0400 (EDT) From: The Classiest Man Alive To: Francisco Reyes cc: "chat@freebsd.org" , Geir Eivind Mork Subject: Re: OS/2 users going to FreeBSD? :-) In-Reply-To: <199706181529.LAA24912@federation.addy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Francisco Reyes wrote: : >I'm a user of FreeBSD (a quite new one too), : I have seen several OS/2 users using/switching to FreeBSD (I am one : of them). I think that a lot of us got to this point through one common factor--frustration with Microsoft Windows (in its various incarnations). It's shortcomings were so obvious to me, I looked to the next best thing that would allow me to maintain some continuity. At the time, that was OS/2, due to its high level of Windows 3.1 compatibility. Of course, as IBM demonstrated repeatedly that they weren't interested in waging a serious battle over the desktop, I concluded that OS/2 was going the way of the Amiga and that it was time to move on. By this point, the free Unix systems (namely Linux and FreeBSD) had matured to a point of being ready for serious use by someone who didn't want to write kernel patches. Of course, history seems to indicate that the great technology is doomed to fail. (See preceding paragraph.) Let's just hope that never comes to pass with FreeBSD. K.S. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 17:37:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA22277 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 17:37:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ormail.intel.com (ormail.intel.com [134.134.248.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA22272 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 17:37:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ichips.intel.com (ichips.intel.com [134.134.50.200]) by ormail.intel.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA14471; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 17:37:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ichips.intel.com by ichips.intel.com (8.7.4/jIII) id RAA10964; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 17:37:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706190037.RAA10964@ichips.intel.com> To: The Classiest Man Alive cc: Francisco Reyes , "chat@freebsd.org" , Geir Eivind Mork Subject: Re: OS/2 users going to FreeBSD? :-) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:16:09 PDT." Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 17:37:30 -0700 From: Sri Ramkrishna Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message you wr > Of course, as IBM demonstrated repeatedly that they weren't interested in > waging a serious battle over the desktop, I concluded that OS/2 was going > the way of the Amiga and that it was time to move on. By this point, the > free Unix systems (namely Linux and FreeBSD) had matured to a point of > being ready for serious use by someone who didn't want to write kernel > patches. I dunno about the Amiga. There is still a lot of developement work on it. I think the latest phase now is to re-engineer the OS much like Linux. In the end, they'll have it on every platform. I never got a chance to try OS/2. I've been told that it's a great product. The only one I've seen was a rather "ho-hum" 386 computer running at 640x480. Not very impressive. Truly though Unix machines have matured. It's unbelievable that I'm sitting at home and running all the little multimedia programs that usually only Windows can do. (ie RealAudio, Shockwave) I think this is going to keep going. > Of course, history seems to indicate that the great technology is doomed > to fail. (See preceding paragraph.) Let's just hope that never comes to > pass with FreeBSD. This is true, it's great marketing that wins. :( sri -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Sriram Ramkrishna | Intel Corporation Unix System Adminstrator | MD-6 Division, Technical Support phone: 503-264-3529 | email: sramkris@ichips.intel.com MailStop:JF1-22 | location: G17 pillar -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 17:42:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA22468 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 17:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from python.shoal.net.au (andrew@python.shoal.net.au [203.26.44.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA22443 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 17:42:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (andrew@localhost) by python.shoal.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA12946 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:42:09 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:42:09 +1000 (EST) From: Andrew Perry To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: walnut creek's ftp site Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk How many hits per day does walnut creek receive? I've just seen an article at http://www.microsoft.com/syspro/technet/tnnews/features/mscom.htm and was wondering how badly they compared with FreeBSD. Andrew Perry andrew@shoal.net.au From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 17:44:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA22563 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 17:44:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obiwan.psinet.net.au (adrian@for.a.good.time.call.adrian.austnet.org [203.19.28.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA22552 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 17:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by obiwan.psinet.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA15395; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 08:23:28 +0800 (WST) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 08:23:28 +0800 (WST) From: Adrian Chadd To: Michael Smith cc: Mr M P Searle , kaveman@magna.com.au, ksmm@cybercom.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FREEBSD ON TELEVISION PROGRAM In-Reply-To: <199706170416.NAA14511@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Michael Smith wrote: > > > extra-funky 3D tank game you get. MMmmm.. first thing I do when I get my > > > hands on an Indy is to play bztank :) > > > > You don't need an Indy - see http://reality.sgi.com/crs/bzflag.html. It's being ported to Windows 95/NT. It's nearly all OpenGL, so should be very easy to > > port to any system. > > OK, so where do we get the source code? Err. I'm talking to the author about it right now, and he's looking at giving me the source to port bzflag to free unix platforms (so I'll be doing the linux and the freebsd ports).. I have to sign an NDA though *snort* So I'm assuming I can't release the source out to people basically because he is planning on making a little bit of money from selling the Windows versions. (Well it IS such a cool game isn't it? :-) Anyway, that should be happening when he's finished writing the OpenGL-only version (the current one uses Motif, and we all HATE Motif don't we?) So the answer is YES we will have a port hopefully in a month and a bit. -- Adrian Chadd | "Unix doesn't stop you from doing | stupid things because that would | stop you from doing clever things" From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 17:48:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA22700 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 17:48:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA22695 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 17:48:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id KAA24137; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:17:54 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706190047.KAA24137@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: When FreeBSD Desktop? In-Reply-To: <18600.866662174@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Jun 18, 97 12:29:34 pm" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:17:53 +0930 (CST) Cc: jroberts@ashland.edu, francisco@natserv.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying: > CDE 1.1 + Xaccel 3.1 + FreeBSD. That's the basic idea. Just a gotcha with Xaccel right now; there's a serious bug in their Matrox driver that gives you garbled colours on current-model Milleniums. Everything works OK, but colours as-seen on the the screen are all wrong. This is giving me the pip as we have a pile of systems here that we can't ship until this is finished 8( -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 18:00:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA23129 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 18:00:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalypso.cybercom.net (kalypso.cybercom.net [209.21.136.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA23085; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 18:00:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell1.cybercom.net (ksmm@shell1.cybercom.net [209.21.136.6]) by kalypso.cybercom.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA08016; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:09:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ksmm@localhost) by shell1.cybercom.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA05401; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:37:01 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:37:01 -0400 (EDT) From: The Classiest Man Alive To: Troy Curtiss cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Status on LS-120 drive support? (moving to chat...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Troy Curtiss wrote: : Anybody out there using those LS-120 drives yet? I think they : are IDE-interfaced. Looks like they hold 120MB and can read old : floppies (1.44M) too. If they are going to be supported (or going : to be commercially successful), they look like a better deal than : the Iomega Zip drives. Any thoughts? The drives look like they could be a match for the Iomega Zip (especially with 20% more storage space), but they have some catching up to do. Iomega has shipped more than one million Zip drives to date, far more than any other similar drive. The media is everywhere--computer stores, office supply stores, technical bookstores. And we all know somebody that has one, so they're well-tested and great for exchanging with friends. Remember the EZ-135? They were supposed to be technically superior to the Zip, too (35% more space, 50% faster, etc.), but weak marketing, shipping delays and reliability problems have all but made those things extinct. It's hard to overturn such a "well-established" market. But if you decide to go that route, let me know how it works out. K.S. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 18:16:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA24039 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 18:16:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cliffy.statsci.com (root@cliffy.statsci.com [206.63.206.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA24033 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 18:16:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plum.statsci.com (plum [206.63.206.43]) by cliffy.statsci.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/Hub) with SMTP id SAA06893; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 18:15:29 -0700 Received: from plum.statsci.com [206.63.206.43] with smtp by plum.statsci.com with smtp (/\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1 #29.3 #3) id m0weVou-0007RFC; Wed, 18 Jun 97 18:15 PDT Message-Id: To: Michael Smith cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: When FreeBSD Desktop? References: <199706190047.KAA24137@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:17:53 +0930." <199706190047.KAA24137@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Reply-to: scott@statsci.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <4206.866682927.1@plum.statsci.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 18:15:28 -0700 From: Scott Blachowicz Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael Smith wrote: > Just a gotcha with Xaccel right now; there's a serious bug in their > Matrox driver that gives you garbled colours on current-model > Milleniums. Everything works OK, but colours as-seen on the the > screen are all wrong. Sounds like what I get with XFree86 3.2, 3.2A, 3.3 on my FreeBSD (2.1.5 and 2.2.1) system with the ATI Mach64 driver...that plus some kernel panic complaining about a "recursive_lock" on my 2nd try at running the server. It does however work if I give it '-bpp 16' instead of the default -bpp 8...probably unrelated to what you're seeing, but I couldn't resist the opening to mention it again :-( Scott Blachowicz Ph: 206/283-8802x240 Mathsoft (Data Analysis Products Div) 1700 Westlake Ave N #500 scott@statsci.com Seattle, WA USA 98109 Scott.Blachowicz@seaslug.org From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 18:39:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA25278 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 18:39:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.xtalwind.net (xtal131.xtalwind.net [205.245.61.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA25273 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 18:39:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (zeus.xtalwind.net [127.0.0.1]) by zeus.xtalwind.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA06273; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:39:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:39:28 -0400 (EDT) From: jack X-Sender: jack@zeus.xtalwind.net To: Jamie Bowden cc: "Larry S. Marso" , Francisco Reyes , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OS/2 users going to FreeBSD? :-) In-Reply-To: <199706182022.QAA12265@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Jamie Bowden wrote: > On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Larry S. Marso wrote: > > > I'm one of them, too (after a brief tour of Linux-land). OS/2 has a > > superior object oriented GUI, the server for which is multithreaded; X > > servers are not! (ready to receive technical FLAME if I'm mistaken). > > But I actually prefer off-the-shelf UNIX apps. > > I am one of those as well. OS/2's GUI is awesomely built. Too bad IBM > hired their own marketing staff to sell it. They're good with the Fortune 500, but in the retail market IBM couldn't sell $10 bills for $5 each. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Finger jacko@diamond.xtalwind.net or jack@xtalwind.net http://www.xtalwind.net/~jacko/pubpgp.html #include for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 18:58:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA26241 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 18:58:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA26230 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 18:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA14989; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 19:00:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706190200.TAA14989@implode.root.com> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.root.com: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Andrew Perry cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: walnut creek's ftp site In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:42:09 +1000." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 19:00:35 -0700 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >How many hits per day does walnut creek receive? I've just seen an article >at http://www.microsoft.com/syspro/technet/tnnews/features/mscom.htm and >was wondering how badly they compared with FreeBSD. We have one, single processor server that handles both FTP and WWW. On a good day, we send out 150GB of files to about 50,000 people. On the same day the same machine gets about 400,000 http hits. During all of this the CPU is about 40% idle. Averages prior to recent network problems run about 10% below these numbers. This is hard to compare with Microsoft since they are using multiple 4 processor machines. However, they claim their daily average is 350GB/day, so I think we're doing pretty well with nearly half as much as them with only a single, 1 CPU machine. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 18:58:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA26279 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 18:58:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from misery.sdf.com (misery.sdf.com [204.244.210.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA26242; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 18:58:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tom by misery.sdf.com with smtp (Exim 1.62 #1) id 0weWRz-00038P-00; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 18:55:51 -0700 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 18:55:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Samplonius To: The Classiest Man Alive cc: Troy Curtiss , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Status on LS-120 drive support? (moving to chat...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, The Classiest Man Alive wrote: ... > any other similar drive. The media is everywhere--computer stores, office > supply stores, technical bookstores. And we all know somebody that has > one, so they're well-tested and great for exchanging with friends. ... Don't forget that Zip is available is a SCSI version, which makes it usable on non-intel systems like Mac, Sparc, and SGI. I don't believe that an IDE-only solution will take off for this reason. Tom From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 19:24:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA27883 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 19:24:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA27874 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 19:24:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id LAA24463; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 11:53:59 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706190223.LAA24463@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: FREEBSD ON TELEVISION PROGRAM In-Reply-To: from Adrian Chadd at "Jun 19, 97 08:23:28 am" To: adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au (Adrian Chadd) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 11:53:59 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, csubl@csv.warwick.ac.uk, kaveman@magna.com.au, ksmm@cybercom.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Adrian Chadd stands accused of saying: > > I'm talking to the author about it right now, and he's looking at giving > me the source to port bzflag to free unix platforms (so I'll be doing the > linux and the freebsd ports).. I have to sign an NDA though *snort* > So I'm assuming I can't release the source out to people basically because > he is planning on making a little bit of money from selling the Windows > versions. That's fair enough; the existence of a port alone will be a Good Thing. You might even find someone that was willing to sponsor the port, especially if you were to offer them a custom version with their logo on it for bundling with their product. (Just an idea...) > So the answer is YES we will have a port hopefully in a month and a bit. Spiff! > Adrian Chadd | "Unix doesn't stop you from doing -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 19:28:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA28046 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 19:28:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA28039 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 19:27:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id LAA24488; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 11:57:46 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706190227.LAA24488@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: OS/2 users going to FreeBSD? :-) In-Reply-To: <199706181850.UAA21225@online.no> from Geir Eivind Mork at "Jun 18, 97 08:49:02 pm" To: gemork@online.no Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 11:57:46 +0930 (CST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, francisco@natserv.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Geir Eivind Mork stands accused of saying: > But I was using 4os/2 as my primary shell in Os/2, how can I emulate > it's features (except alias) in BSD (I use the standar shell in > BSD).. Like the TAB feature, the doskey-alike feature (browse > previous commands) etc. 4os2/4dos/etc inherit heavily from bash/tcsh. Either of these shells are, in most regards, vastly superior due at least in part to the environment. > And btw; Can I use some sort of macro in the prompt ? Like I did in > dos/4os? Like the famous $p$g? I haven't figured out something like > that from the man(uals) Here is my prompt (for tcsh), nothing fancy : set prompt=`hostname -s`:%~\> Check the tcsh manpages for other neat % expansions; there's sure to be one that suits you. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 19:29:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA28194 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 19:29:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA28180 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 19:28:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id LAA24500; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 11:58:48 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706190228.LAA24500@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: OS/2 users going to FreeBSD? :-) In-Reply-To: <199706181529.LAA24912@federation.addy.com> from Francisco Reyes at "Jun 18, 97 11:29:16 am" To: francisco@natserv.com Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 11:58:48 +0930 (CST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, gemork@online.no X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Francisco Reyes stands accused of saying: > > The one thing that I don't know if there is something as good in > FreeBSD as in OS/2 are email software. I use PmMail and soon to get > PMInews. From what I have heard the other email software for OS/2 are > algo great. PMMail is/was really nice. The closest I've found so far is xfmail, which is a little less pretty (xforms is fairly bogus), but superior in terms of functionality. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 20:23:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA00558 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:23:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.xtalwind.net (xtal131.xtalwind.net [205.245.61.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA00479 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:22:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (zeus.xtalwind.net [127.0.0.1]) by zeus.xtalwind.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA06684; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 23:21:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 23:21:38 -0400 (EDT) From: jack X-Sender: jack@zeus.xtalwind.net To: David Greenman cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: walnut creek's ftp site In-Reply-To: <199706190200.TAA14989@implode.root.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, David Greenman wrote: > We have one, single processor server that handles both FTP and WWW. On a > good day, we send out 150GB of files to about 50,000 people. On the same day > the same machine gets about 400,000 http hits. During all of this the CPU is > about 40% idle. Averages prior to recent network problems run about 10% below > these numbers. Would these network problems be the cause of numerous timeouts and ftp transfer rates as low as 0.8K the past few days? :( -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Finger jacko@diamond.xtalwind.net or jack@xtalwind.net http://www.xtalwind.net/~jacko/pubpgp.html #include for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 20:24:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA00718 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:24:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kevin.sunshine.net ([204.191.205.114]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA00708 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:24:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (cagey@localhost) by kevin.sunshine.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA00346; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:18:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: kevin.sunshine.net: cagey owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:18:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Kevin Eliuk X-Sender: cagey@kevin.sunshine.net Reply-To: Kevin Eliuk To: RHS Linux User cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: freebsd and linux on same hd? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, RHS Linux User wrote: > I would like to put FreeBSD on my current computer, but it would have to > share a hard drive with Linux...has anyone tried this configuration yet? > or is the best solution to just delete Linux? I'm thinking of using Lilo > to handle the bootup between the two, but i haven't tried it yet... Checkout http://www.freebsd.org/tutorials/multios/multios.html -- "Using FreeBSD with other operating systems" "This document discusses how to make FreeBSD coexist nicely with other popular operating systems such as Linux, MS-DOS, OS/2, and Windows 95. Special thanks to: Annelise Anderson andrsn@stanford.edu, Randall Hopper rhh@ct.picker.com, and Jordan K. Hubbard jkh@time.cdrom.com" -- =| Regards, =| FreeBSD ==> http://www.FreeBSD.org =| Kevin G. Eliuk =| "Free at last, free at last, ..." From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 20:32:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA01586 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA01581 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:32:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA20141; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:31:02 -0700 (PDT) To: Michael Smith cc: jroberts@ashland.edu, francisco@natserv.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: When FreeBSD Desktop? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:17:53 +0930." <199706190047.KAA24137@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:31:01 -0700 Message-ID: <20138.866691061@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Just a gotcha with Xaccel right now; there's a serious bug in their > Matrox driver that gives you garbled colours on current-model > Milleniums. Everything works OK, but colours as-seen on the the > screen are all wrong. This is giving me the pip as we have a pile of > systems here that we can't ship until this is finished 8( Are you sure? We've got tons of Milleniums here and haven't seen any problems with Xaccel 3.1. Are these, like, brand new Milleniums just released this week or something? :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 20:49:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA02721 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:49:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA02706 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:49:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id NAA24959; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 13:18:46 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706190348.NAA24959@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: When FreeBSD Desktop? In-Reply-To: <20138.866691061@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Jun 18, 97 08:31:01 pm" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 13:18:46 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, jroberts@ashland.edu, francisco@natserv.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying: > > Just a gotcha with Xaccel right now; there's a serious bug in their > > Matrox driver that gives you garbled colours on current-model > > Milleniums. Everything works OK, but colours as-seen on the the > > screen are all wrong. This is giving me the pip as we have a pile of > > systems here that we can't ship until this is finished 8( > > Are you sure? We've got tons of Milleniums here and haven't seen any > problems with Xaccel 3.1. Are these, like, brand new Milleniums just > released this week or something? :) No, we've had these for at least a month; they're 4M MGA-220's. Xi said that one of the chips (the TI ramdac, I think) was a newer revision than the one they were using. Nevertheless, we have quite a pile of these cards, and they all exhibit the same symptoms. I'd need a camera to actually show you, as the server thinks the colours are fine. Right now I just want a bomb to put under XI's butts; we were counting on these guys working and so far we've only been saved by the laziness of the trading company our customer is using. > Jordan -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 20:50:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA02848 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:50:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA02843 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:50:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA16111; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:52:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706190352.UAA16111@implode.root.com> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.root.com: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: jack cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: walnut creek's ftp site In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 18 Jun 1997 23:21:38 EDT." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:52:21 -0700 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> about 40% idle. Averages prior to recent network problems run about 10% below >> these numbers. > >Would these network problems be the cause of numerous timeouts and ftp >transfer rates as low as 0.8K the past few days? :( Yes. It's a laundry list of problems, ranging from incorrect routing for stuff going through the Chicago NAP, to incorrect configuration of the MAE-east router that was causing our packets to fall into a black hole, to overloaded west coast peering-point connections. Each of these problems is being addressed and things should hopefully be back to "normal" in a few days. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 21:13:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA03933 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:13:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from suntan.tandem.com (suntan.tandem.com [192.216.221.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA03925 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:13:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Greg Lehey Received: from papillon.lemis.com by suntan.tandem.com (8.6.12/suntan5.970212) id VAA24580; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:13:02 -0700 Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.4/8.6.12) id KAA00390; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:24:00 +0800 (HKT) Message-Id: <199706190224.KAA00390@papillon.lemis.com> Subject: Re: OS/2 users going to FreeBSD? :-) In-Reply-To: <199706181850.UAA21225@online.no> from Geir Eivind Mork at "Jun 18, 97 08:49:02 pm" To: gemork@online.no Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:23:59 +0800 (HKT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Reply-to: grog@FreeBSD.ORG (Greg Lehey) WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/~grog X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Geir Eivind Mork writes, in lines of 110 characters: > X-Mailer: PMMail 1.92 For OS/2 (Excuse me if I rearrange your text to fit in 80 character wide windows) > But I was using 4os/2 as my primary shell in Os/2, how can I emulate > it's features (except alias) in BSD (I use the standar shell in > BSD).. Like the TAB feature, the doskey-alike feature (browse > previous commands) etc. I don't know what the TAB feature does, but if it's used for filename completion, bash does that. You can also browse (and search) the command history. > And btw; Can I use some sort of macro in the prompt ? Like I did in > dos/4os? Like the famous $p$g? I haven't figured out something like > that from the man(uals) Yes, bash will do this as well. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 21:13:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA03979 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from suntan.tandem.com (suntan.tandem.com [192.216.221.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA03974 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:13:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Greg Lehey Received: from papillon.lemis.com by suntan.tandem.com (8.6.12/suntan5.970212) id VAA24675; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:13:36 -0700 Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.4/8.6.12) id KAA00354; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:04:22 +0800 (HKT) Message-Id: <199706190204.KAA00354@papillon.lemis.com> Subject: Re: OS/2 users going to FreeBSD? :-) In-Reply-To: <199706182022.QAA12265@gatekeeper.itribe.net> from Jamie Bowden at "Jun 18, 97 04:21:52 pm" To: jamie@itribe.net (Jamie Bowden) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:04:21 +0800 (HKT) Cc: lsmarso@panix.com, francisco@natserv.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Reply-to: grog@FreeBSD.ORG (Greg Lehey) WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/~grog X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jamie Bowden writes: > On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Larry S. Marso wrote: > >> I'm one of them, too (after a brief tour of Linux-land). OS/2 has a >> superior object oriented GUI, the server for which is multithreaded; X >> servers are not! (ready to receive technical FLAME if I'm mistaken). >> But I actually prefer off-the-shelf UNIX apps. > > I am one of those as well. OS/2's GUI is awesomely built. Too bad IBM > hired their own marketing staff to sell it. How times have changed. Used to be a time that IBM's products were so-so, and their salesmen the world's best. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 21:30:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA04695 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:30:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA04686 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:30:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mcfeely.concentric.net (mcfeely [207.155.184.83]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.5/(97/05/21 3.30)) id AAA27730; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 00:29:27 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from shag (ts002d07.sal-ut.concentric.net [206.173.156.43]) by mcfeely.concentric.net (8.8.5) id AAA22967; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 00:29:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <33A8B547.76651B41@concentric.net> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 22:27:51 -0600 From: Joshua Fielden Organization: Shaggy Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: OpenLinux still behind BSD.... X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk http://www8.zdnet.com/pcweek/reviews/0616/16linux.html Contains a mini-review of OpenLinux, a product intended to set up small network servers, get a foothold into the corporate workspace, etc. The salient point of the review is when they said setup was still for administrators only, it did not auto-detect all of their hardware correctly, and finding drivers was a problem. Next, they say setting up FreeBSD on the same h/w was no problem. No links, no description of the product, nothing. But a "better than" still beats a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. :-) -- SCSI is *not* magic. There are many technical reasons why it is occasionally nessicary to sacrifice a small goat to your SCSI chain. --Joshua Fielden From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 21:32:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA04812 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:32:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA04782 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:31:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id GAA14707 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 06:31:55 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.6.12) with UUCP id GAA12503 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 06:31:37 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.5/keltia-uucp-2.9) id AAA00785; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 00:17:51 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970619001751.44295@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 00:17:51 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: "chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: OS/2 users going to FreeBSD? :-) References: <199706181850.UAA21225@online.no> <19970618144857.51669@right.PCS> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 In-Reply-To: <19970618144857.51669@right.PCS>; from Jonathan Lemon on Wed, Jun 18, 1997 at 02:48:57PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#3392 AMD-K6 MMX @ 208 MHz Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Jun 06, 1997 at 08:49:02PM +0100, Geir Eivind Mork wrote: > > But I was using 4os/2 as my primary shell in Os/2, how can I emulate it's > > features (except alias) in BSD (I use the standar shell in BSD).. Like the > > TAB feature, the doskey-alike feature (browse previous commands) etc. > > > > And btw; Can I use some sort of macro in the prompt ? Like I did in > > dos/4os? Like the famous $p$g? I haven't figured out something like that > > from the man(uals) tcsh (or zsh if you're more of a Bourne fan) will blow 4os/2 out of the water. 4os/2 (and before 4DOS) was modeled after UNIX shells... You'll find many more features in tcsh/zsh than in 4os/2. I can even say that the first version of 4DOS to support completion wasn't using TAB but F8 (if my memory is right). After many people -- including me -- told the authors that UNIX shells used TAB, they added TAB support. Too bad they got it wrong. TAB cycles through the completion and that's irritating compared to the way of tcsh/zsh (complete till ambiguity). As for your BTW, here is my prompt setting (tcsh but zsh has the same syntax for PS1): set prompt="%h [%T] %B%n%b@%m:%B%.2%#%b " It gives you something like this 255 [23:12] roberto@keltia:/build/ap2> if you're yourself and this if you're root: 230 [22:48] root@keltia:~# -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #20: Fri Jun 13 00:16:13 CEST 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 21:43:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA05359 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:43:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA05338 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id AAA06733; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 00:42:00 -0400 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 00:42:00 -0400 Message-Id: <199706190442.AAA06733@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au CC: gemork@online.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, francisco@natserv.com In-reply-to: <199706190227.LAA24488@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> (message from Michael Smith on Thu, 19 Jun 1997 11:57:46 +0930 (CST)) Subject: Re: OS/2 users going to FreeBSD? :-) x-url: http://www.red-bean.com/~nemo x-attribution: nemo x-foobar: By failing to prepare, you are preparing to fail. Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk From: Michael Smith Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 11:57:46 +0930 (CST) set prompt=`hostname -s`:%~\> Something to try sometime: install GNU hostname in the PATH before the *bsd version of hostname. Use that to set root's prompt. It has a very different effect than what you would expect. After logining in as root with the prompt configured like that, the output of `hostname' will be `-s'... (Yes, your hostname gets set to `-s'...) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 21:43:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA05389 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from suntan.tandem.com (suntan.tandem.com [192.216.221.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA05384 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:43:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Greg Lehey Received: from papillon.lemis.com by suntan.tandem.com (8.6.12/suntan5.970212) id VAA28832; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:42:53 -0700 Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.4/8.6.12) id MAA00611; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:42:33 +0800 (HKT) Message-Id: <199706190442.MAA00611@papillon.lemis.com> Subject: Re: OS/2 users going to FreeBSD? :-) In-Reply-To: <199706190227.LAA24488@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from Michael Smith at "Jun 19, 97 11:57:46 am" To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:42:31 +0800 (HKT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Reply-to: grog@FreeBSD.ORG (Greg Lehey) WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/~grog X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael Smith writes: > Geir Eivind Mork stands accused of saying: >> But I was using 4os/2 as my primary shell in Os/2, how can I emulate >> it's features (except alias) in BSD (I use the standar shell in >> BSD).. Like the TAB feature, the doskey-alike feature (browse >> previous commands) etc. > > 4os2/4dos/etc inherit heavily from bash/tcsh. Either of these shells > are, in most regards, vastly superior due at least in part to the > environment. > >> And btw; Can I use some sort of macro in the prompt ? Like I did in >> dos/4os? Like the famous $p$g? I haven't figured out something like >> that from the man(uals) > > Here is my prompt (for tcsh), nothing fancy : > > set prompt=`hostname -s`:%~\> Ah. Now I'm going to have to publish mine for bash, too. This is the one you'll see in the FreeBSD book: PS1="=== \u@\h (`tty`) \w \# -> " PS2="\u@\h \w \! ++ " PS1 is used for primary prompts, and PS2 is used for continuations. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 21:46:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA05592 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:46:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA05545 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:45:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id OAA25314; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 14:15:29 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706190445.OAA25314@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: OS/2 users going to FreeBSD? :-) In-Reply-To: <199706190442.AAA06733@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> from "Joel N. Weber II" at "Jun 19, 97 00:42:00 am" To: devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Joel N. Weber II) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 14:15:28 +0930 (CST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joel N. Weber II stands accused of saying: > From: Michael Smith > Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 11:57:46 +0930 (CST) > > set prompt=`hostname -s`:%~\> > > Something to try sometime: install GNU hostname in the PATH > before the *bsd version of hostname. Use that to set root's > prompt. It has a very different effect than what you would > expect. After logining in as root with the prompt configured > like that, the output of `hostname' will be `-s'... > > (Yes, your hostname gets set to `-s'...) Ah, another reason to install the Quality GNU Tools on my system. Not. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 21:46:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA05637 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:46:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA05625; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:46:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id AAA06768; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 00:46:19 -0400 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 00:46:19 -0400 Message-Id: <199706190446.AAA06768@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: grog@FreeBSD.ORG CC: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199706180108.JAA00340@papillon.lemis.com> (message from Greg Lehey on Wed, 18 Jun 1997 09:08:13 +0800 (CST)) Subject: Re: TCL From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I won't disagree with any of this. I just disagree with the concept >of having to use different languages for different purposes. (dons >asbestos underwear) As far as I am concerned, there are three >languages: (Bourne) shell, awk, and C. Sure, it takes more effort to >write some things in C than it would in perl or tcl, but you don't get >boxed in so easily. I personally find that just as learning foreign languages helps me write better, so does learning other computer languages help me program better. Lisp, for instance, changed my perspective on hacking in a big way. I also find that when I'm writing C code in Perl, I'm not using Perl effectively. Instead it's most effective to think in Perl terms when writing Perl, and in C terms when writing C. Happy hacking, joelh -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 21:55:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA05942 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:55:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA05937 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:55:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id AAA06844; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 00:55:11 -0400 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 00:55:11 -0400 Message-Id: <199706190455.AAA06844@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199706190445.OAA25314@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> (message from Michael Smith on Thu, 19 Jun 1997 14:15:28 +0930 (CST)) Subject: Re: OS/2 users going to FreeBSD? :-) x-url: http://www.red-bean.com/~nemo x-attribution: nemo x-foobar: Paranoia: A healthy understanding of the nature of the universe. Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk From: Michael Smith Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 14:15:28 +0930 (CST) Ah, another reason to install the Quality GNU Tools on my system. Not. Yes, and another problem I found within a day on the same netbsd-hp-m68k machine is that GNU find doesn't print sizes correctly in `-ls'. (It does work fine on a Linux machine.) OTOH, since the bugs were discovered on a machine in the gnu.ai.mit.edu domain, I think there's some hope they'll get fixed. OTOH, I generally prefer GNU find, since I can do something like `find -name foobar' and GNU find will do the equivalent of `find . -name foobar -print'. (I actually took the time to install GNU find in my account on a solaris machine because of this...) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 22:01:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA06169 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 22:01:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA06164 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 22:01:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id OAA25428; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 14:31:28 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706190501.OAA25428@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: OS/2 users going to FreeBSD? :-) In-Reply-To: <199706190455.AAA06844@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> from "Joel N. Weber II" at "Jun 19, 97 00:55:11 am" To: devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Joel N. Weber II) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 14:31:28 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joel N. Weber II stands accused of saying: > > OTOH, I generally prefer GNU find, since I can do something like > `find -name foobar' and GNU find will do the equivalent of > `find . -name foobar -print'. > > (I actually took the time to install GNU find in my account on a solaris > machine because of this...) That kinda breaks the argument syntax for find; everything before the path is an option, everything afterwards is the expression. If you add the '.', you get the same behaviour as the BSD find. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 22:24:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA06969 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 22:24:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA06964 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 22:24:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id BAA07086; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 01:24:35 -0400 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 01:24:35 -0400 Message-Id: <199706190524.BAA07086@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: tom@sdf.com CC: ksmm@cybercom.net, troyc@sandy.merix.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: (message from Tom Samplonius on Wed, 18 Jun 1997 18:55:50 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: Status on LS-120 drive support? (moving to chat...) From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [moved to -chat instead of cross-psoting to -hackers and -chat] >> any other similar drive. The media is everywhere--computer stores, office >> supply stores, technical bookstores. And we all know somebody that has >> one, so they're well-tested and great for exchanging with friends. > Don't forget that Zip is available is a SCSI version, which makes it >usable on non-intel systems like Mac, Sparc, and SGI. I don't believe >that an IDE-only solution will take off for this reason. Macs recently started using IDE. But I don't know how well the (laughable) ATAPI/IDE standard handles cross-platform issues. Happy hacking, joelh -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 22:31:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA07322 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 22:31:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA07311 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 22:31:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id FAA16935; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 05:30:55 GMT Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 14:30:54 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Tom Samplonius cc: The Classiest Man Alive , Troy Curtiss , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Status on LS-120 drive support? (moving to chat...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Tom Samplonius wrote: > > On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, The Classiest Man Alive wrote: > > ... > > any other similar drive. The media is everywhere--computer stores, office > > supply stores, technical bookstores. And we all know somebody that has > > one, so they're well-tested and great for exchanging with friends. > ... > > Don't forget that Zip is available is a SCSI version, which makes it > usable on non-intel systems like Mac, Sparc, and SGI. I don't believe > that an IDE-only solution will take off for this reason. Zip's are cool, but I really think the LS-120 will replace the current floppy drive standard because of their compatibility with 1.44 media. Compaq 4000's come with them as standard equipment and many manufacturers are starting to put in BIOSes that can handle them better. Imation/3M are doing a good job of seeding the channels. Regards, Mike From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 22:35:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA07471 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 22:35:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA07464; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 22:35:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA00770; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 22:35:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706190535.WAA00770@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: grog@FreeBSD.ORG (Greg Lehey) cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith), chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) Subject: Re: OS/2 users going to FreeBSD? :-) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:42:31 +0800." <199706190442.MAA00611@papillon.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 22:35:40 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This is what I have for my prompt in my .tcshrc if ($?prompt) then set prompt="{hasty} " set filec endif if ( $?term ) then if ( "$term" == 'xterm' ) then set prompt = '%{\033]0;%m - %~\007%}%B{hasty}%b ' else set prompt = '%m - %~ %# ' endif else set prompt = '%m - %~ %# ' endif From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 22:40:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA07713 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 22:40:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA07705 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 22:40:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id BAA07196; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 01:40:07 -0400 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 01:40:07 -0400 Message-Id: <199706190540.BAA07196@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au CC: devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199706190501.OAA25428@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> (message from Michael Smith on Thu, 19 Jun 1997 14:31:28 +0930 (CST)) Subject: Re: OS/2 users going to FreeBSD? :-) From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> OTOH, I generally prefer GNU find, since I can do something like >> `find -name foobar' and GNU find will do the equivalent of >> `find . -name foobar -print'. > That kinda breaks the argument syntax for find; everything before the > path is an option, everything afterwards is the expression. If you > add the '.', you get the same behaviour as the BSD find. Doesn't break it, it augments it in a backward-compatible fashion. Just because it means a complete rewrite if you were to try to write an FSM for reading it, doesn't mean it breaks it. Happy hacking, joelh -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 23:11:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA08889 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 23:11:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from misery.sdf.com (misery.sdf.com [204.244.210.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA08884 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 23:11:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tom by misery.sdf.com with smtp (Exim 1.62 #1) id 0weaO6-0003DN-00; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 23:08:06 -0700 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 23:08:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Samplonius To: Joel Ray Holveck cc: ksmm@cybercom.net, troyc@sandy.merix.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Status on LS-120 drive support? (moving to chat...) In-Reply-To: <199706190524.BAA07086@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Joel Ray Holveck wrote: > [moved to -chat instead of cross-psoting to -hackers and -chat] > > >> any other similar drive. The media is everywhere--computer stores, office > >> supply stores, technical bookstores. And we all know somebody that has > >> one, so they're well-tested and great for exchanging with friends. > > Don't forget that Zip is available is a SCSI version, which makes it > >usable on non-intel systems like Mac, Sparc, and SGI. I don't believe > >that an IDE-only solution will take off for this reason. > > Macs recently started using IDE. But I don't know how well the > (laughable) ATAPI/IDE standard handles cross-platform issues. As I recall, IDE cables are limited to 18 inches. Not so good for an external device. Plus is there a standard for an external IDE connector? Plus, if these drives actually gain wide acceptance, it will really limit expansion: you can only have 2 IDE busses, with 2 devices each, and so desktop systems will now only have only have one free position for expansion (one for hd, one for cdrom, one for LS 120). Not so cool... > Happy hacking, > joelh > > -- > http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu > All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's. > > Second law of programming: > Anything that can go wrong wi > sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped > > Tom From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 23:55:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA11253 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 23:55:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from suntan.tandem.com (suntan.tandem.com [192.216.221.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA11237 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 23:55:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Greg Lehey Received: from papillon.lemis.com by suntan.tandem.com (8.6.12/suntan5.970212) id XAA16800; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 23:54:52 -0700 Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.4/8.6.12) id OAA00750; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 14:54:46 +0800 (HKT) Message-Id: <199706190654.OAA00750@papillon.lemis.com> Subject: Re: OS/2 users going to FreeBSD? :-) In-Reply-To: <199706190501.OAA25428@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from Michael Smith at "Jun 19, 97 02:31:28 pm" To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 14:54:41 +0800 (HKT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Reply-to: grog@FreeBSD.ORG (Greg Lehey) WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/~grog X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael Smith writes: > Joel N. Weber II stands accused of saying: >> >> OTOH, I generally prefer GNU find, since I can do something like >> `find -name foobar' and GNU find will do the equivalent of >> `find . -name foobar -print'. >> >> (I actually took the time to install GNU find in my account on a solaris >> machine because of this...) > > That kinda breaks the argument syntax for find; everything before > the path is an option, everything afterwards is the expression. If > you add the '.', you get the same behaviour as the BSD find. Sure. Remember that the word 'default' originally mean 'fault'. What we're talking about here is just adding a couple of sensible defaults (path list defaults to ., action defaults to -print). I definitely like GNU find; it's one of the first programs I port to new platforms, not because of these features, but because of others, in particular -mmin and friends (like mtime and friends, but in minutes instead of days). Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 18 23:58:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA11467 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 23:58:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA11447 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 23:58:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id IAA09369 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 08:58:37 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA00500; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 08:50:08 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970619085008.JD18163@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 08:50:08 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) Subject: Re: OS/2 users going to FreeBSD? :-) References: <199706190442.MAA00611@papillon.lemis.com> <199706190535.WAA00770@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199706190535.WAA00770@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Jun 18, 1997 22:35:40 -0700 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Amancio Hasty wrote: > This is what I have for my prompt in my .tcshrc Ah, a prompt contest? :-) Here's mine. Of course, you gotta try it in an xterm... if($?prompt) then # # ... other interactive-shell stuff # if ($?DISPLAY && $term != "emacs") then ## set xterm icon name to hostname, and title to host.fqdn:dirname set prompt = "%{\033]2;%M:%~\007\033]1;%m\007%}%n@%m %h%% " setenv EDITOR emacsclient endif endif -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 00:02:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA11690 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 00:02:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA11685 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 00:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA01338 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 00:02:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706190702.AAA01338@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: NetBSD on June issue of Byte Magazine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 00:02:01 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It appears that Oracle is using NetBSD for its NC OS . So in short there is hope for Unix to be user friendly and great looking . Check out NC's desktop on page 64 Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 00:15:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA12291 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 00:15:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA12286 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 00:15:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA09624 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:14:17 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA00551; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 08:57:12 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970619085711.BP00877@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 08:57:11 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FREEBSD ON TELEVISION PROGRAM References: <199706170416.NAA14511@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Adrian Chadd on Jun 19, 1997 08:23:28 +0800 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Adrian Chadd wrote: > I'm talking to the author about it right now, and he's looking at giving > me the source to port bzflag to free unix platforms (so I'll be doing the > linux and the freebsd ports).. I have to sign an NDA though *snort* That's the tank game? One of the few `military-type' games i ever enjoyed to play. This was perhaps the most enjoyable software on our Indys back at my previous employer. What about their flight simulator? I don't care if you omit the rockets and stuff, but it wasn't too bad either (although rather lame compared to the old M$ flight simulator i used to play back some 5 or 7 years ago). I found it at least more realistic than ACM. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 00:15:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA12315 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 00:15:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA12303 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 00:15:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA09638 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:15:42 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA00563; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:03:17 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970619090317.EZ61808@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:03:17 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Status on LS-120 drive support? (moving to chat...) References: <199706190524.BAA07086@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Tom Samplonius on Jun 18, 1997 23:08:05 -0700 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Tom Samplonius wrote: > Plus, if these drives actually gain wide acceptance, it will really > limit expansion: you can only have 2 IDE busses, ... Not to defend IDE (the so-called `standard' is really laughable, and always makes me wonder why the heck most of the drives apparently work at all), but who says you can have only two busses? Of course, in the PeeCee world, it would require a vendor shipping something like PCI boards for another couple of IDE busses, but the thread was about non-PeeCees, so they might not opt to self-limit as the PeeCee world did. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 00:15:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA12333 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 00:15:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA12319 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 00:15:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA09639 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:15:46 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA00577; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:08:28 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970619090828.ND50160@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:08:28 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Status on LS-120 drive support? (moving to chat...) References: X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Michael Hancock on Jun 19, 1997 14:30:54 +0900 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Michael Hancock wrote: > Zip's are cool, but I really think the LS-120 will replace the current > floppy drive standard because of their compatibility with 1.44 media. Await it. Iomega once created the Floptical, also compatible with 1.44 media, and usable with 20 MB media (magnetical recording, optical positioning). They were what their name suggests, a flop. Our Indys shipped with these beasts, and the generous Indy designers even `forgot' to design a flap behind the hole where you were about to insert the medium. The result was a drive that usually even failed to read a floppy within a week of sucking dust through this hole, not to mention the (semi-)optical media. Also, they were dog-slow with 1.44 MB floppies (about half a minute `check-in' time), and way too expensive to use them as a floppy replacement. :) I never got the drive to work reliably on a FreeBSD machine (but didn't investigate too much then). So, until the LS drives have proven to be really superiour and all, i would be cautious with wheather forecasts. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 00:31:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA12949 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 00:31:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA12934 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 00:31:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id RAA26429; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 17:01:03 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706190731.RAA26429@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: NetBSD on June issue of Byte Magazine In-Reply-To: <199706190702.AAA01338@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "Jun 19, 97 00:02:01 am" To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 17:01:03 +0930 (CST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Amancio Hasty stands accused of saying: > > It appears that Oracle is using NetBSD for its NC OS . So in short > there is hope for Unix to be user friendly and great looking . > Check out NC's desktop on page 64 Anyone keeping an eye on the DNARD ("shark" : www.digital.com/semiconductor/dna.htm) could have told you this 8) > Amancio -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 00:37:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA13202 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 00:37:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au (daemon@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au [130.102.2.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA13197 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 00:37:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au (8.8.5/8.8.6) id RAA19538 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 17:37:05 +1000 Received: from troll.dtir.qld.gov.au by ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au (8.7.5/DEVETIR-E0.3a) with ESMTP id RAA12486 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 17:36:54 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (syssgm@localhost) by troll.dtir.qld.gov.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA10587; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 17:36:50 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199706190736.RAA10587@troll.dtir.qld.gov.au> X-Authentication-Warning: troll.dtir.qld.gov.au: syssgm@localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: syssgm@dtir.qld.gov.au Subject: FreeBSD cracks DES Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 17:36:49 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Well, well, well. DES busted by a FreeBSD box. This gave me a smirk. :-) Snipped from the cryptography list: >Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 13:46:19 -0600 >From: Rocke Verser >To: deschall-announce@gatekeeper.megasoft.com >Subject: WE FOUND IT! >Sender: owner-deschall-announce@gatekeeper.megasoft.com > > "Strong cryptography makes the world a safer place." > >That's the message RSA has been waiting for us to decipher. >And we did it! > >The correct key (8558891AB0C851B6) was reported to RSA Data Security >shortly before midnight last night (Mountain Time). RSA's automated >server acknowledged our win! Also from the cryptography list: >Project statistics: > Start of contest: January 29, 1997 > Announcement of DESCHALL project: February 18, 1997 > End of contest: June 17, 1997 > > Size of keyspace: 72,057,594,037,927,936 > Keys searched: 17,731,502,968,143,872 > Peak keys/day: 601,296,394,518,528 > Peak keys/second: 7,000,000,000 (approx) > > Peak clients/day: 14,000 (approx, based on IP address) > Total clients, since start: 78,000 (approx, based on IP address) > >The computer that found the key: > CPU: Pentium 90 > RAM: 16 megabytes > Operating System: FreeBSD 2.2.1 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Speed (keys/second): 250,000 (approx) > Client: FreeBSD v0.214, built March 12, 1997 > Owner: iNetZ Corporation, Salt Lake City, Utah > Operator: Michael K. Sanders I'll be checking this out as soon as I can get to the web. Their blurb on the DES challenge is at: http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm Stephen. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 01:15:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA15331 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 01:15:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA15317 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 01:15:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id EAA09892; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 04:15:36 -0400 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 04:15:36 -0400 Message-Id: <199706190815.EAA09892@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <19970619090317.EZ61808@uriah.heep.sax.de> (j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Subject: Re: Status on LS-120 drive support? (moving to chat...) x-url: http://www.red-bean.com/~nemo x-attribution: nemo x-foobar: What do batteries run on? --Steve Wright Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The Linux IDE driver can support four busses, I think, so you can have eight drives. My machine has both a crummy dual-channel ide controller, with both channels enabled, and an IO board with its IDE controller disabled. The IO board can only handle the standard primary and secondary addresses, and the motherboard controller has a similar limitation. So I have three IDE channels, but due to the inflexibity of all of my controllers, I can only get two IDE channels enabled. Incidentally, I have two hard drives and a CDROM drive. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 01:47:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA16965 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 01:47:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA16960 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 01:47:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA21389; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 01:47:42 -0700 (PDT) To: Joshua Fielden cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OpenLinux still behind BSD.... In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 18 Jun 1997 22:27:51 MDT." <33A8B547.76651B41@concentric.net> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 01:47:41 -0700 Message-ID: <21385.866710061@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > http://www8.zdnet.com/pcweek/reviews/0616/16linux.html > > Contains a mini-review of OpenLinux, a product intended to set up small > network servers, get a foothold into the corporate workspace, etc. The > salient point of the review is when they said setup was still for > administrators only, it did not auto-detect all of their hardware > correctly, and finding drivers was a problem. Next, they say setting up > FreeBSD on the same h/w was no problem. No links, no description of the > product, nothing. But a "better than" still beats a poke in the eye with > a sharp stick. :-) Indeed. It also gave me the chance to pitch the author for a FreeBSD review, which I've just done. :) Now I don't think it would help to mailbomb the guy, exactly, but if a few folks wanted to pipe up with "hey, tell us more about the FreeBSD thing!" sorts of responses to this article, it might also positively affect his views on the merits of doing a FreeBSD review. :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 01:49:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA17095 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 01:49:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obiwan.psinet.net.au (adrian@for.a.good.time.call.adrian.austnet.org [203.19.28.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA17089 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 01:48:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by obiwan.psinet.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA16125; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 16:28:42 +0800 (WST) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 16:28:41 +0800 (WST) From: Adrian Chadd To: Joerg Wunsch cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FREEBSD ON TELEVISION PROGRAM In-Reply-To: <19970619085711.BP00877@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, J Wunsch wrote: > As Adrian Chadd wrote: > > > I'm talking to the author about it right now, and he's looking at giving > > me the source to port bzflag to free unix platforms (so I'll be doing the > > linux and the freebsd ports).. I have to sign an NDA though *snort* > > That's the tank game? *nod* > One of the few `military-type' games i ever enjoyed to play. This was > perhaps the most enjoyable software on our Indys back at my previous > employer. I *loved* the game when I played it a couple years back. In fact, while I'm in Sydney I'll be spending a LOT of time in the Visilab at Sydney University.. two rooms full of Indys, and a Crimson (and a Cray too from memory :) .. at least that was the configuration two years ago. > What about their flight simulator? I don't care if you omit the > rockets and stuff, but it wasn't too bad either (although rather lame > compared to the old M$ flight simulator i used to play back some 5 or > 7 years ago). I found it at least more realistic than ACM. Hmm.. remember its name? is it by the same guy? If I sucessfully port bzflag to linux/*bsd, then I might look at porting that. A good track record is a good thing. Cya, -- Adrian Chadd | "Unix doesn't stop you from doing | stupid things because that would | stop you from doing clever things" From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 01:55:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA17306 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 01:55:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from suntan.tandem.com (suntan.tandem.com [192.216.221.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA17301 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 01:55:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Greg Lehey Received: from papillon.lemis.com by suntan.tandem.com (8.6.12/suntan5.970212) id BAA02387; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 01:55:38 -0700 Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.4/8.6.12) id PAA00905; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 15:55:06 +0800 (HKT) Message-Id: <199706190755.PAA00905@papillon.lemis.com> Subject: Re: TCL In-Reply-To: <199706181211.IAA10652@gatekeeper.itribe.net> from Jamie Bowden at "Jun 18, 97 08:10:31 am" To: jamie@itribe.net (Jamie Bowden) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 15:55:05 +0800 (HKT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Reply-to: grog@FreeBSD.ORG (Greg Lehey) WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/~grog X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jamie Bowden writes: > On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> I won't disagree with any of this. I just disagree with the concept >> of having to use different languages for different purposes. (dons >> asbestos underwear) As far as I am concerned, there are three >> languages: (Bourne) shell, awk, and C. Sure, it takes more effort to >> write some things in C than it would in perl or tcl, but you don't get >> boxed in so easily. > > So your next FreeBSD book will be in C, sh, and awk? Should make for a > very interesting read. :) Yup. I'm thinking of calling it "Real Programmers don't TCL". Awk Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 01:55:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA17327 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 01:55:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from suntan.tandem.com (suntan.tandem.com [192.216.221.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA17322 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 01:55:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Greg Lehey Received: from papillon.lemis.com by suntan.tandem.com (8.6.12/suntan5.970212) id BAA02405; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 01:55:46 -0700 Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.4/8.6.12) id PAA00864; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 15:46:16 +0800 (HKT) Message-Id: <199706190746.PAA00864@papillon.lemis.com> Subject: Re: TCL In-Reply-To: <199706190446.AAA06768@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> from Joel Ray Holveck at "Jun 19, 97 00:46:19 am" To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 15:46:14 +0800 (HKT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Reply-to: grog@FreeBSD.ORG (Greg Lehey) WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/~grog X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joel Ray Holveck writes: > >> I won't disagree with any of this. I just disagree with the concept >> of having to use different languages for different purposes. (dons >> asbestos underwear) As far as I am concerned, there are three >> languages: (Bourne) shell, awk, and C. Sure, it takes more effort to >> write some things in C than it would in perl or tcl, but you don't get >> boxed in so easily. > > I personally find that just as learning foreign languages helps me > write better, so does learning other computer languages help me > program better. Lisp, for instance, changed my perspective on > hacking in a big way. OK, OK, I admit it, I used to hack a lot of LISP, and it did more to change my attitudes to programming than anything else I can think of. And maybe I was being a little too categorical in my statement above: yes, I do use other languages, in particular Emacs LISP, but not as often. > I also find that when I'm writing C code in Perl, I'm not using Perl > effectively. Instead it's most effective to think in Perl terms > when writing Perl, and in C terms when writing C. Sure. That's one of my gripes. I don't think that the learning effective use of the group (Perl,TCL,) is worth the trouble. I was unhappy enough to discover that I couldn't do everything in LISP. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 01:58:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA17443 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 01:58:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wrzx07.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de (wrzx07.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.1.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA17437 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 01:58:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wicx50.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de (mail@wicx50.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de [132.187.9.50]) by wrzx07.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA01747; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:57:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by wicx50.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de (8.6.12/uniwue-C-3.1a (CIP Gate)) id KAA19740; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:57:54 +0200 Received: from kreta(132.187.9.11) by cipgate via smap (V1.3) id sma019738; Thu Jun 19 10:57:52 1997 Received: by wicx11.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de (5.65v3.2/uniwue-C-3.1 (C)) id AA13409; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:57:52 +0200 From: Matthias Buelow Message-Id: <9706190857.AA13409@wicx11.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> Subject: Re: FreeBSD cracks DES To: syssgm@dtir.qld.gov.au (Stephen McKay) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:57:51 +0100 (MET DST) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199706190736.RAA10587@troll.dtir.qld.gov.au> from "Stephen McKay" at Jun 19, 97 05:36:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >The computer that found the key: > > CPU: Pentium 90 > > RAM: 16 megabytes > > Operating System: FreeBSD 2.2.1 This is even more funny considering that the Linux folks, in their greed, have a BIG logo on their website wanting to make "Linux the #1 contributor" (dunno if they were, don't think so, though) and stuff. It must be quite a pain in the arse that something else than their beloved pet made it. :-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 01:59:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA17548 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 01:59:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA17543 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 01:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newman.concentric.net (newman [207.155.184.71]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.5/(97/05/21 3.30)) id EAA14606; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 04:59:24 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from shag (ts002d07.sal-ut.concentric.net [206.173.156.43]) by newman.concentric.net (8.8.5) id EAA15680; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 04:59:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <33A8F49D.67CA5FD0@concentric.net> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 02:58:05 -0600 From: Joshua Fielden Organization: Shaggy Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OpenLinux still behind BSD.... X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <21385.866710061@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > http://www8.zdnet.com/pcweek/reviews/0616/16linux.html > > > > Contains a mini-review of OpenLinux, a product intended to set up small > > network servers, get a foothold into the corporate workspace, etc. The > > salient point of the review is when they said setup was still for > > administrators only, it did not auto-detect all of their hardware > > correctly, and finding drivers was a problem. Next, they say setting up > > FreeBSD on the same h/w was no problem. No links, no description of the > > product, nothing. But a "better than" still beats a poke in the eye with > > a sharp stick. :-) > > Indeed. It also gave me the chance to pitch the author for a FreeBSD > review, which I've just done. :) > > Now I don't think it would help to mailbomb the guy, exactly, but if a > few folks wanted to pipe up with "hey, tell us more about the FreeBSD > thing!" sorts of responses to this article, it might also positively > affect his views on the merits of doing a FreeBSD review. :) > > Jordan Of course, one might think that the author thought BSD was so well-known as to not need an introduction. :-) Just mail them the cdrom.com server stats, and tell 'em Linux has cooties. That should be enough. =) -- SCSI is *not* magic. There are many technical reasons why it is occasionally nessicary to sacrifice a small goat to your SCSI chain. --Joshua Fielden From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 02:05:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA17810 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 02:05:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA17800 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 02:05:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id SAA27186; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 18:34:57 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706190904.SAA27186@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Status on LS-120 drive support? (moving to chat...) In-Reply-To: <199706190815.EAA09892@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> from "Joel N. Weber II" at "Jun 19, 97 04:15:36 am" To: devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Joel N. Weber II) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 18:34:57 +0930 (CST) Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joel N. Weber II stands accused of saying: > The Linux IDE driver can support four busses, I think, so you can have > eight drives. I've had four IDE controllers in an old '386 under 2.0; there's no hard limit other than I/O address and number of free IRQ's with the BSD driver AFAIK. NB: two of these controllers had track butchery to shift their base addresses and IRQs. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 02:35:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA18987 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 02:35:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from matrix.42.org (sec@matrix.42.org [192.68.213.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA18975 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 02:35:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sec@localhost) by matrix.42.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA20438; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 11:35:13 +0200 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Path: sec From: sec@42.org (Stefan `Sec` Zehl) Newsgroups: muc.lists.freebsd.chat Subject: Re: OS/2 users going to FreeBSD? :-) Date: 19 Jun 1997 11:35:12 +0200 Organization: Internet@home Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <199706190227.LAA24488@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> <199706190442.AAA06733@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.3.0-2 BETA UNIX) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <199706190442.AAA06733@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu>, Joel N. Weber II wrote: > Something to try sometime: install GNU hostname in the PATH > before the *bsd version of hostname. Use that to set root's > prompt. It has a very different effect than what you would > expect. After logining in as root with the prompt configured > like that, the output of `hostname' will be `-s'... You don't need GNU hostname for that - SunOS's will suffice. Thoe whole story is, that we have a whole cluster of FreeBSD PCs(13) and a Sun 4m as NFS server. We were porting FreeBSDs /etc/daily for the sun, so we get the same mail from every bos. And yes, there's a line host=`hostname -s` directly at the beginning :) this was rather funny as my prompt then changed to "-s" and i was actually looking for a mistake in my .tcshrc :)) CU, Sec -- Fuer die Raupe ist es das Ende der Welt, Fuer den Rest der Welt ist es ein Schmetterling Error 0: No error From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 02:46:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA19409 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 02:46:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA19403 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 02:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA21840; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 02:46:10 -0700 (PDT) To: Joshua Fielden cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OpenLinux still behind BSD.... In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 19 Jun 1997 02:58:05 MDT." <33A8F49D.67CA5FD0@concentric.net> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 02:46:09 -0700 Message-ID: <21836.866713569@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > cdrom.com server stats, and tell 'em Linux has cooties. That should be Ah, the *cootie* argument! Now why didn't I think of that? It worked on the playground, after all, and if something works for you you're supposed to stick with it, right? :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 02:55:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA19647 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 02:55:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA19642 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 02:55:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cliff.concentric.net (cliff [206.173.119.90]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.5/(97/05/21 3.30)) id FAA18597; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 05:55:12 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from shag (ts002d07.sal-ut.concentric.net [206.173.156.43]) by cliff.concentric.net (8.8.5) id FAA14833; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 05:55:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <33A901B1.D59EDBC7@concentric.net> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 03:53:53 -0600 From: Joshua Fielden Organization: Shaggy Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OpenLinux still behind BSD.... X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <21836.866713569@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > cdrom.com server stats, and tell 'em Linux has cooties. That should be > > Ah, the *cootie* argument! Now why didn't I think of that? It worked > on the playground, after all, and if something works for you you're > supposed to stick with it, right? :) > > Jordan Sorry, affectation picked up from the chat board I telnet to, where half the regulars run FreeBSD or Slowlaris. Sorry. :-) -- SCSI is *not* magic. There are many technical reasons why it is occasionally nessicary to sacrifice a small goat to your SCSI chain. --Joshua Fielden From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 03:04:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA19948 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 03:04:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA19935 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 03:04:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from marconi.concentric.net (buckpalace [206.173.119.71]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.5/(97/05/21 3.30)) id GAA19142; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 06:04:11 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from shag (ts002d02.sal-ut.concentric.net [206.173.156.38]) by marconi.concentric.net (8.8.5) id GAA02637; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 06:04:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <33A903CD.A5B9D499@concentric.net> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 04:02:53 -0600 From: Joshua Fielden Organization: Shaggy Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OpenLinux still behind BSD.... X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <21836.866713569@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > cdrom.com server stats, and tell 'em Linux has cooties. That should be > > Ah, the *cootie* argument! Now why didn't I think of that? It worked > on the playground, after all, and if something works for you you're > supposed to stick with it, right? :) > > Jordan And by the way, next time I will be sure to properly mark my text. cooties :-) -- SCSI is *not* magic. There are many technical reasons why it is occasionally nessicary to sacrifice a small goat to your SCSI chain. --Joshua Fielden From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 05:38:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA25494 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 05:38:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA25489 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 05:38:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706191239.IAA14178@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Received: forwarded by SMTP 1.6.0. Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 08:38:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Ollivier Robert cc: "chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: OS/2 users going to FreeBSD? :-) In-Reply-To: <19970619001751.44295@keltia.freenix.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Ollivier Robert wrote: > As for your BTW, here is my prompt setting (tcsh but zsh has the same > syntax for PS1): > > set prompt="%h [%T] %B%n%b@%m:%B%.2%#%b " > > It gives you something like this > > 255 [23:12] roberto@keltia:/build/ap2> > > if you're yourself and this if you're root: > > 230 [22:48] root@keltia:~# set prompt="%t %m %S %/ %s%" gives: 8:37am animaniacs /home/jamie % The current directory is highlighted, though that doesn't show here. Jamie Bowden System Administrator, iTRiBE.net From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 06:33:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA27330 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 06:33:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toth.ferginc.com (toth.ferginc.com [205.139.23.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA27325 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 06:33:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by toth.ferginc.com (You/Wish) with SMTP id JAA27576; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:30:47 -0400 (EDT) Posted-Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:30:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:30:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Branson Matheson X-Sender: branson@toth.hq.ferg.com Reply-To: Branson Matheson To: Jamie Bowden cc: Ollivier Robert , "chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: OS/2 users going to FreeBSD? :-) In-Reply-To: <199706191239.IAA14178@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > set prompt="%h [%T] %B%n%b@%m:%B%.2%#%b " > > 255 [23:12] roberto@keltia:/build/ap2> > > > set prompt="%t %m %S %/ %s%" > 8:37am animaniacs /home/jamie % while were at it ... for you zsh users ( and zsh is pretty cool if you havn't looked at it .. especially the =filename function ) export HOST=`uname -n | awk -F. '{print $1}'` if [ "${TERM}" = "xterm" ] then echo -n "ESC]2; ${LOGNAME}@${HOST}:${PWD} ^G" chpwd() { echo -n "ESC]2; ${LOGNAME}@${HOST}:${PWD} ^G" } export PS1="%n@%m %(#.#.>) " else export PS1="%n@%m:%~ %(#.#.>) " fi This little gem will give you a title bar in an xterm like: branson@belmakor:/home/branson and will set your prompt to branson@belmakor > if you are using an xterm. Make sure that you replace the ESC with ^[ and the ^G with a real control g... you can do this by typing and then . If you are using anything else... it will set your prompt to branson@belmakor:/your/dir > - branson ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Branson Matheson " If you are falling off of a mountain, System Administrator You may as well try to fly." Ferguson Enterprises - Delenn, Mimbari Ambassador From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 08:27:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA02281 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 08:27:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA02265 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 08:26:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) id RAA15226; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 17:25:56 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 17:25:56 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199706191525.RAA15226@bitbox.follo.net> From: Eivind Eklund To: Branson Matheson CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Branson Matheson's message of Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:30:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: OS/2 users going to FreeBSD? :-) References: <199706191239.IAA14178@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > set prompt="%h [%T] %B%n%b@%m:%B%.2%#%b " > > > 255 [23:12] roberto@keltia:/build/ap2> > > > > > set prompt="%t %m %S %/ %s%" > > 8:37am animaniacs /home/jamie % > > while were at it ... for you zsh users ( and zsh is pretty cool if you > havn't looked at it .. especially the =filename function ) zsh is _cool_, and not just if you're a bourne fan, as was was implied earlier - I've found it a better shell overall than tcsh, after approx 5 years of using tcsh, and not being able to live in bash. Things that made me switch: (1) Powerful filename expansion. Pattern matching is almost the power of find. (2) You can write foreach statements on one line, storing it entirely in the history buffer. (3) The default setup isn't to mess up my history entries (which tcsh without histlit do) (4) I can control tab-completion for different commands fairly easily. (5) TAB expands patterns to a list of filenames. and otherwise no loss from tcsh. (Well, .. isn't eligeble for filename expansion - no added / by default. Doesn't bother me, but I know it bother some other people.) > export HOST=`uname -n | awk -F. '{print $1}'` > if [ "${TERM}" = "xterm" ] > then > echo -n "ESC]2; ${LOGNAME}@${HOST}:${PWD} ^G" > chpwd() { echo -n "ESC]2; ${LOGNAME}@${HOST}:${PWD} ^G" } > export PS1="%n@%m %(#.#.>) " > else > export PS1="%n@%m:%~ %(#.#.>) " > fi Neat, but could be neater. Here's the version I ended up with: if [ "${TERM}" = "xterm" ] then chpwd() { echo -n "\e]2; ${LOGNAME}@${HOST%%.*}:$(print -P %~) \007" } chpwd export PS1="%B%n(%m)%#%b " else export PS1="%B%n(%m)%~%#%b " fi It do not mess up the HOST variable (using zsh substitution to strip the hostname instead), can just be cut'n'pasted (inline special characters are done using escapes), use the default prompting character for zsh (~) instead of ">", and use homedir-matching for the name in the title-bar - ie, /home/eivind will change to ~ for me, ~eivind for you. Eivind, trying to get more converts :) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 09:26:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA04669 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:26:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA04664 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:26:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA06819; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:26:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706191626.JAA06819@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Michael Smith cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NetBSD on June issue of Byte Magazine In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 19 Jun 1997 17:01:03 +0930." <199706190731.RAA26429@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:26:06 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk What I am attempting to address is that with what we got today we can go a long way when it comes to ease of use and configuration. Amancio >From The Desk Of Michael Smith : > Amancio Hasty stands accused of saying: > > > > It appears that Oracle is using NetBSD for its NC OS . So in short > > there is hope for Unix to be user friendly and great looking . > > Check out NC's desktop on page 64 > > Anyone keeping an eye on the DNARD ("shark" : > www.digital.com/semiconductor/dna.htm) could have told you this 8) > > > Amancio > > -- > ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ > ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ > ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ > ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ > ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 09:47:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA05338 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:47:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cliffy.statsci.com (cliffy.statsci.com [206.63.206.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA05333 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:47:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apple.statsci.com (apple [206.63.206.4]) by cliffy.statsci.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/Hub) with SMTP id JAA21325; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:45:34 -0700 Received: from apple.statsci.com [206.63.206.4] with smtp by apple.statsci.com with smtp (/\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1 #29.3 #3) id m0wekKy-0006uMC; Thu, 19 Jun 97 09:45 PDT Message-Id: To: Eivind Eklund cc: Branson Matheson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OS/2 users going to FreeBSD? :-) References: <199706191239.IAA14178@gatekeeper.itribe.net> <199706191525.RAA15226@bitbox.follo.net> In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 19 Jun 1997 17:25:56 +0200." <199706191525.RAA15226@bitbox.follo.net> Reply-to: scott@statsci.com Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:45:31 -0700 From: Scott Blachowicz Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Eivind Eklund wrote: > chpwd() { echo -n "\e]2; ${LOGNAME}@${HOST%%.*}:$(print -P %~) \007" } Cool...hadn't thought of the "$(print...)" sequence. Mine's amazing similar except that it also does the same sort of thing for 'hpterm' and Sun cmdtool/shelltool (yuk!) windows (but I haven't used them forever and certainly haven't tested recent changes there) and for setting the icon name to "user@host"... set_title_vars () { [ "X$HOST" = X ] && export HOST=`hostname` [ "X$LOGNAME" = X ] && export LOGNAME=`PATH=${PATH}:/usr/ucb:/bin whoami` } case "$TERM" in xterm*|X-hpterm*|sun*) settitle () { set_title_vars if [ $# -eq 0 ] ; then str="${LOGNAME}@${HOST%%.*}:$(print -P %~)" else str="$*" fi WINDOW_TITLE="" export WINDOW_TITLE; case "$TERM" in xterm) WINDOW_TITLE="\e]2;${str}\007" ;; X-hpterm) len=`expr length "$str"`; WINDOW_TITLE="\e&f0k${len}D$str" ;; sun*) if [ X"$WINDOW_PARENT" != X ] ; then WINDOW_TITLE="\e]l${str}\e\\" fi ;; *) WINDOW_TITLE="" ;; esac; if [ "X$WINDOW_TITLE" != X ] ; then echo -n "$WINDOW_TITLE" fi } seticonname () { set_title_vars if [ $# -eq 0 ] ; then str="${LOGNAME}@${HOST%%.*}" else str="$*" fi WINDOW_TITLE="" export WINDOW_TITLE; case "$TERM" in xterm) WINDOW_TITLE="\e]1;${str}\007" ;; X-hpterm) len=`expr length "$str"`; WINDOW_TITLE="\e&f-1k${len}D$str" ;; sun*) # don't know how (or care how). ;; *) WINDOW_TITLE="" ;; esac if [ X"$WINDOW_TITLE" != X ] ; then echo -n "$WINDOW_TITLE" fi } settitle seticonname ;; *) settitle () { : no title bar } seticonname () { : no icon window } ;; esac -- Scott Blachowicz Ph: 206/283-8802x240 Mathsoft (Data Analysis Products Div) 1700 Westlake Ave N #500 scott@statsci.com Seattle, WA USA 98109 Scott.Blachowicz@seaslug.org From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 12:22:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA12427 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:22:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from agora.rdrop.com (root@agora.rdrop.com [199.2.210.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA12422 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:22:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA23066 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:22:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id VAA16902 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:21:06 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA01997; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:06:22 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970619210621.WX09767@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:06:21 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FREEBSD ON TELEVISION PROGRAM References: <19970619085711.BP00877@uriah.heep.sax.de> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Adrian Chadd on Jun 19, 1997 16:28:41 +0800 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Adrian Chadd wrote: > > What about their flight simulator? > Hmm.. remember its name? Just `flight' i believe. > is it by the same guy? No idea, i didn't care for the authors back in 1995, when i've been playing with those Indys. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 12:22:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA12459 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:22:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA12447 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:22:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id VAA16923 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:22:39 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA02007; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:08:56 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970619210856.RZ13269@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:08:56 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Status on LS-120 drive support? (moving to chat...) References: <19970619090317.EZ61808@uriah.heep.sax.de> <199706190815.EAA09892@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199706190815.EAA09892@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu>; from Joel N. Weber II on Jun 19, 1997 04:15:36 -0400 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Joel N. Weber II wrote: > The Linux IDE driver can support four busses, I think, so you can have > eight drives. FreeBSD can support N controllers, i think. N is usually limited by the number of IRQ lines. (Funny you should mention Linux here, historically it hasn't been a very shining example in this field. Their first floppy driver even hardcoded the DMA channel by a #define, and the timers were arranged in fixed slots.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 12:23:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA12482 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:23:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA12473 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:23:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id VAA16924 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:22:57 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA02025; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:12:55 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970619211255.MN57416@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:12:55 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Status on LS-120 drive support? (moving to chat...) References: <199706190815.EAA09892@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> <199706190904.SAA27186@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199706190904.SAA27186@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>; from Michael Smith on Jun 19, 1997 18:34:57 +0930 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Michael Smith wrote: > > The Linux IDE driver can support four busses, I think, so you can have > > eight drives. > > I've had four IDE controllers in an old '386 under 2.0; there's no > hard limit other than I/O address and number of free IRQ's with the > BSD driver AFAIK. There has been a limit in 386BSD 0.1, due to some sloppy programming. I remember that i had to patch the wdc driver so to use both, IDE and ESDI in the same machine. This has probably been the first machine on the world running this combination. In FreeBSD, this seems to have been fixed here: revision 1.19 date: 1994/01/04 20:05:23; author: nate; state: Exp; lines: +692 -574 New wd driver, based on Bruce Evans 'wx/altwd' driver which has passed enough tests to be considered more stable than current driver. ... Support for multiple controllers is in, but doesn't work correctly with different controllers (IDE AND MFM), but multiple alike controllers appears to work. ... ...that is, in FreeBSD 1.1. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 13:33:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA16776 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 13:33:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA16723 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 13:33:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id WAA17564 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 22:32:38 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.6.12) with UUCP id WAA09108 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 22:32:18 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.5/keltia-uucp-2.9) id VAA04691; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:57:51 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970619215751.20461@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:57:51 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OS/2 users going to FreeBSD? :-) References: <199706191239.IAA14178@gatekeeper.itribe.net> <199706191525.RAA15226@bitbox.follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 In-Reply-To: <199706191525.RAA15226@bitbox.follo.net>; from Eivind Eklund on Thu, Jun 19, 1997 at 05:25:56PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#3392 AMD-K6 MMX @ 208 MHz Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Eivind Eklund: > It do not mess up the HOST variable (using zsh substitution to strip > the hostname instead), can just be cut'n'pasted (inline special > characters are done using escapes), use the default prompting Zsh has the %{...%} construct too so you don't need to use chpwd(). PS1="%{\033]2;%n@%M:%/ - %l\007\033]1;%l@%m\007%}%h [%T] %B%n%b@%m:%B%.2%#%b " That give you the same prompt as I get under tcsh. What makes me reluctant to switch from tcsh to zsh is that tcsh has always succeeded in keeping the tty state clean whereas I still have a messed up tty sometimes under zsh. Feature for feature, zsh == tcsh although zsh has some neat things like you said (filename matching, decent quoting and redirection and so on). Extracted from tcsh(1): Terminal management (+) The shell uses three different sets of terminal (``tty'') modes: `edit', used when editing, `quote', used when quot- ing literal characters, and `execute', used when executing commands. The shell holds some settings in each mode con- stant, so commands which leave the tty in a confused state do not interfere with the shell. The shell also matches changes in the speed and padding of the tty. The list of tty modes that are kept constant can be examined and modi- fied with the setty builtin. Note that although the edi- tor uses CBREAK mode (or its equivalent), it takes typed- ahead characters anyway. The echotc, settc and telltc commands can be used to manipulate and debug terminal capabilities from the com- mand line. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #20: Fri Jun 13 00:16:13 CEST 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 13:33:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA16841 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 13:33:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA16491 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 13:32:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id WAA17558 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 22:32:38 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.6.12) with UUCP id WAA09107 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 22:32:18 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.5/keltia-uucp-2.9) id VAA04585; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:27:02 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970619212702.11106@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:27:02 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OS/2 users going to FreeBSD? :-) References: <199706190227.LAA24488@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> <199706190442.AAA06733@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 In-Reply-To: <199706190442.AAA06733@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu>; from Joel N. Weber II on Thu, Jun 19, 1997 at 12:42:00AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#3392 AMD-K6 MMX @ 208 MHz Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Joel N. Weber II: > set prompt=`hostname -s`:%~\> > > (Yes, your hostname gets set to `-s'...) I don't see the need to use `` inside a prompt under tcsh., especially for hostname... There are such nice builtins escape sequences just for that such as "%m" (hostname, 1st component only), "%M" (full hostname) and all others. set prompt="%m:%~>" is smaller, faster (doesn't fork at every prompt), and doesn't have the inconvenient of "-s"... -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #20: Fri Jun 13 00:16:13 CEST 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 13:59:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA18647 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 13:59:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA18632 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 13:59:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id QAA12677; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 16:59:30 -0400 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 16:59:30 -0400 Message-Id: <199706192059.QAA12677@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <19970619210856.RZ13269@uriah.heep.sax.de> (j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Subject: Re: Status on LS-120 drive support? (moving to chat...) x-url: http://www.red-bean.com/~nemo x-attribution: nemo x-foobar: No program done by a hacker will work unless he is on the system. Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:08:56 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) (Funny you should mention Linux here, historically it hasn't been a very shining example in this field. Their first floppy driver even hardcoded the DMA channel by a #define, and the timers were arranged in fixed slots.) Two years ago I installed Linux on my machine, when it only had two hard drives. The boot disk I used couldn't support two controllers. But six months later when I put the second hard drive in, the current version of the kernel supported the second controller. I did, however, get bitten by the old hard disk. For about a few minutes, the new disk was attached to the primary controller, with the old drives disconnected... From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 14:21:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA20027 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 14:21:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmission.xmission.com (softweyr@xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA20022 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 14:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from softweyr@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) id PAA08298; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 15:21:00 -0600 (MDT) From: Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC Message-Id: <199706192121.PAA08298@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: c++ To: un_x@anchorage.net (Steve Howe) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 15:20:52 -0600 (MDT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org, softweyr@xmission.com In-Reply-To: from "Steve Howe" at Jun 18, 97 09:25:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Redirect to chat, since this isn't really a FreeBSD topic. Steve How recently asked: > can anyone direct me to a good newsgroup/maillist > for the GNU/C++ (bleh!) language/development? Try gnu.gcc.help or gnu.g++.help on Usenet. Your first solution would be to look in the "info" files that come with GCC. If you're not using Emacs, try the "info" program. If you *are* using Emacs, just hit C-h i. > i have alot of problems/questions w/C++. Funny, I use GCC in a variety of environments (FreeBSD, SunOS, HP-UX, VxWorks RTOS, and my own attempts with the SPARClite development system) and have few problems. Maybe GCC just likes me better? ;^) > opinions on C++ welcome. IMHO, it seems like > patching a hole in the sidewall of a tire. > maybe you get some more life out of code > for a while, but you're just avoiding > a bigger impending kludge in the > longrun - as opposed to keeping ordinary > C code up-to-snuff/organized/integrated > throughout the length of development. Apparently you've never worked on a large software project with many similar but not identical elements; this is what C++ really excels at. If you've looked at C++ but NOT object-oriented design, it's not a wonder you "dont get it" yet. Last year, I and another engineer developed a 70,000 line switching application in C++, debugged, tested, out the door in 13 months. This was in an embedded system, and had to be rock solid - no memory leaks, no resources losses of any sort. We literally couldn't have done it with the constraints we had without C++. For instance, we supported four kinds of switchers. Each of these 4 types have many things in common -- they switch signals, they provide varying levels of feedback about what happened to the switch command, etc. The type of switcher used is supposed to be complete transparent to the user. So, we had a generic switcher interface that specified all of the behavior of a switcher, and implemented as much as possible. For each of the four types of switcher, we have a class that derived from the generic switcher class, and implements only the parts that are unique to that type of switcher. You can, of course, develop this application in C, and use pointers to functions to call the individual "send a switch command" and "collect switcher status" functions for each switcher type, but that is *exactly* what the C++ derivation mechanism does for you. In another area, we had a serial port collecting commands from another computer, and sending status back. This software was designed to run on 3 similar-but-different computers, with 4 kinds of serial ports, all of which needed to support the same protocol. Yet another opportunity to create a generic CommPort class, with specific derivations to handle the individual differences between the four types of serial ports. The application code just reference a CommPort, and didn't care if it was a V25CommPort, or a 68302CommPort, or an 8250CommPort, or whatever. Yes, all of this was done with GCC 2.7.2. If you want to learn what C++ is about, I recommend _Designing Object- Oriented Applications Using the Booch Method_ by Robert Martin (Prentice Hall, ISBN: 0-13-203837-4). It should help to explain what C++ can and cannot help with. C++ is NOT a panacea, it won't cure all of the programming ills in the world, but it CAN be very helpful in managing even small projects. For a review of this book, see http://www.acorn.co.uk/associates/caug/References. I have a copy on my shelf, and still refer to it when designing a new class, just in case I've forgotten some of the things I should keep in mind when doing design work. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 14:31:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA20424 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 14:31:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA20394 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 14:31:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id XAA17752 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 23:31:09 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.6.12) with UUCP id XAA09856 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 23:31:02 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.5/keltia-uucp-2.9) id XAA08722; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 23:04:45 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970619230445.55217@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 23:04:45 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: ZSH 3.x bug ? (Was: Re: OS/2 users going to FreeBSD? :-)) References: <199706191239.IAA14178@gatekeeper.itribe.net> <199706191525.RAA15226@bitbox.follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 In-Reply-To: <199706191525.RAA15226@bitbox.follo.net>; from Eivind Eklund on Thu, Jun 19, 1997 at 05:25:56PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#3392 AMD-K6 MMX @ 208 MHz Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Eivind Eklund: > Eivind, > trying to get more converts :) Is the "%{...%}" thing working for you inside PS1 please ? With 3.0.2 or 3.1.1, I can't get it to work at all. To change the title and icon, I must do if [ $TERM = xterm ]; then precmd() { print -n -P "\033]2;%n@%M:%/ - tty%l\007\033]1;tty%l@%m\007" } fi PS1="%h [%T] %B%n%b@%m:%B%2.%(#.#.>)%b " export PS1 because the following doesn't work: PS1="%{\033]2;%n@%M:%/ - tty%l\007\033]1;tty%l@%m\007%}%h [%T] %B%n%b@%m:%B%2.%(#.#.>)%b " cf zshmisc(1) %{...%} Include a string as a literal escape sequence. The string within the braces should not change the cur- sor position. Brace pairs can nest. It does work in tcsh :-) -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #20: Fri Jun 13 00:16:13 CEST 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 15:09:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA22751 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 15:09:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA22744 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 15:09:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id HAA29716; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 07:38:49 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706192208.HAA29716@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: make world error in RELENG_2_2 In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970619140035.00a32100@sentex.net> from Mike Tancsa at "Jun 19, 97 02:00:35 pm" To: mike@sentex.net (Mike Tancsa) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 07:38:49 +0930 (CST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mike Tancsa stands accused of saying: > At 06:39 PM 6/19/97 +0930, Michael Smith wrote: > >You've still done something wrong. I am in the process of a > >'make release' right now, and apart from our CVS server maching throwing > >a gear in the middle of the checkout it's going fine. > > > >The machine running the release, incidentally, has been doing checkout, > >make world cycles since last Friday evening. > > > >THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH 2.2. > > > >I don't know why, or what has broken peoples' systems, but it's nothing > >wrong with the tree. > > If there is nothing wrong, why were so many people having problems all of a > sudden? There's no "all of a sudden" about it. These sort of complaints are a continual feature of the landscape. I'm just at that point in the month wher they set my teeth on edge. > I would say the lack of the login.conf in /etc was a 'problem'... It's not a "problem"; with no login.conf you get an annoying console message - big deal. If you updated your /etc like any conscientious worlder you wouldn't even get that. The only clanger (imho) was the lack of an 'ldconfig -m' with the update of libutil, and even that was easily worked around. > the changing of the /usr/include structure was also a 'problem'... Look, I Huh? I haven't seen any include-related "problems" at all. > miss a post that details a change to the tree structure.... Now, if there > was a README file of some sort included with the cvsup process, detailing > any manual interventions necessary in the make world process, this would > help avoid situations like this. But blindling blaming the user saying > there is nothing wrong doesnt help matters, nor is it correct... The point here is one of assumed competence; you are taking the line "as providers of the roads, the gov't is responsible for making them safe for everyone to drive on". I would counter with "as a careful road user, I humbly suggest that people take lessons, and practice somewhere safe before attempting to drive." I particularly resent changes and impositions (such as attempting to maintain an impossible README) that are meant to make things OK for people that are too lazy or careless to learn for themselves. Firstly, they don't work. Secondly, they make life less enjoyable for the rest of us. > ---Mike (I really need my morning coffee; sorry for any crabbiness in the above, it's something that's been bubbling for a while now) -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 15:24:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA23520 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 15:24:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmission.xmission.com (root@xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA23515 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 15:24:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from softweyr@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) id QAA19059; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 16:12:35 -0600 (MDT) From: Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC Message-Id: <199706192212.QAA19059@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: NetBSD on June issue of Byte Magazine To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 16:12:25 -0600 (MDT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199706191626.JAA06819@rah.star-gate.com> from "Amancio Hasty" at Jun 19, 97 09:26:06 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Amancio Hasty fired: % It appears that Oracle is using NetBSD for its NC OS . So in short % there is hope for Unix to be user friendly and great looking . % Check out NC's desktop on page 64 Michael Smith vollied: > Anyone keeping an eye on the DNARD ("shark" : > www.digital.com/semiconductor/dna.htm) could have told you this 8) Amancio countered: > What I am attempting to address is that with what we got today we can > go a long way when it comes to ease of use and configuration. Uh, no. If you read the Digital Semiconductor page closely, you will learn that NetBSD is being distributed with the DNA (Digital Network Appliance) board as a development system. The final application is expected to run on "NC Access" from Network Computer Inc. I believe, but cannot substantiate, that Wind River Systems is a partner in the OS portion of NC Access. On the other hand, it's a cool little design. I can't wait until my 2 arrive. ;^) (Only 100 Mhz processors, though. Pooh!) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 15:50:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA24833 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 15:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sand.sentex.ca (sand.sentex.ca [206.222.77.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA24827 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 15:50:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gravel (gravel.sentex.ca [205.211.165.210]) by sand.sentex.ca (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id TAA04788; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 19:01:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19970619185234.00a47e10@sentex.net> X-Sender: mdtancsa@sentex.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 18:52:34 -0400 To: Michael Smith From: Mike Tancsa Subject: Re: make world error in RELENG_2_2 Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199706192208.HAA29716@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> References: <3.0.2.32.19970619140035.00a32100@sentex.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 07:38 AM 6/20/97 +0930, Michael Smith wrote: >Mike Tancsa stands accused of saying: >> At 06:39 PM 6/19/97 +0930, Michael Smith wrote: >> >You've still done something wrong. I am in the process of a >> >'make release' right now, and apart from our CVS server maching throwing >> >a gear in the middle of the checkout it's going fine. >> > >> >The machine running the release, incidentally, has been doing checkout, >> >make world cycles since last Friday evening. >> > >> >THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH 2.2. >> > >> >I don't know why, or what has broken peoples' systems, but it's nothing >> >wrong with the tree. >> >> If there is nothing wrong, why were so many people having problems all of a >> sudden? > >There's no "all of a sudden" about it. These sort of complaints are a >continual feature of the landscape. I'm just at that point in the >month wher they set my teeth on edge. Ahhh... so, what is the point of the mailling list then ? Are people only supposed to post success stories? >> the changing of the /usr/include structure was also a 'problem'... Look, I > >Huh? I haven't seen any include-related "problems" at all. I guess the end of May wasnt that time of month for you... There were several posts about it in questions. I dont think people are trying to lay blame, or even criticize the efforts of the FreeBSD developers... But you would call it incompetence, if someone with who started with 2.2.1, tracking 2.2-RELENG, who happily does a dozen or so make worlds, then all of a sudden gets a build failure is automatically user error ? If its not documented anywhere that you have to blow away /usr/include, how are you supposed to automatically know that? And, if these lazy ass people who have these problems should not post to the mailling list, because it pisses people off, what are they to do ? You are only discouraging people from using FreeBSD by this elitist attitude. > >> miss a post that details a change to the tree structure.... Now, if there >> was a README file of some sort included with the cvsup process, detailing >> any manual interventions necessary in the make world process, this would >> help avoid situations like this. But blindling blaming the user saying >> there is nothing wrong doesnt help matters, nor is it correct... > >The point here is one of assumed competence; Oh... well, when I climb out of the pit of incompetence, I wont have any of these lazy ass problems like not knowing enough to rebuild my /usr/include when make world fails. Gee. I just wish I was born with that knowledge instead of having to ask about it. Whats the big deal about adding a few lines to the docs like the 3 points JK made ? That would go a long way to prevent you from getting your "teeth on edge." >you are taking the line >"as providers of the roads, the gov't is responsible for making them >safe for everyone to drive on". I would counter with "as a careful >road user, I humbly suggest that people take lessons, and practice >somewhere safe before attempting to drive." Ahhh no... More like "The government should post a sign saying 'Danger, bridge out on Route B'"... But I guess if you are driving at night and you dont see that the bridge is out and there is no sign to warn you, its your own damn fault. >I particularly resent changes and impositions (such as attempting to >maintain an impossible README) that are meant to make things OK for >people that are too lazy or careless to learn for themselves. So why have any documentation at all ? >Firstly, they don't work. Secondly, they make life less enjoyable for >the rest of us. So dont read the README?!?! Let us who are in the darkness of mediocraty and incompetence waste our time as we are spoon fed by documentation.... Sheesh! >(I really need my morning coffee; sorry for any crabbiness in the >above, it's something that's been bubbling for a while now) ---Mike (who perhaps had too much coffee) ********************************************************************** Mike Tancsa (mike@sentex.net) * To do is to be -- Nietzsche Sentex Communications Corp, * To be is to do -- Sartre Cambridge, Ontario * Do be do be do -- Sinatra (http://www.sentex.net/~mdtancsa) * From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 16:21:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA26409 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 16:21:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.gbdata.com (USR2-1.detnet.com [207.113.12.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA26403 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 16:21:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from gclarkii@localhost) by main.gbdata.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA00347; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 18:22:18 -0500 (CDT) From: Gary Clark II Message-Id: <199706192322.SAA00347@main.gbdata.com> Subject: Re: TCL To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 18:22:17 -0500 (CDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19249.866464340@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Jun 16, 97 05:32:20 am" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > No one who actually knows how to *use* TCL is touting it as a general > purpose language, Gary, and you're simply listening to the wrong > people. You've added nothing to the "to TCL or not to TCL" argument > here. :) Ok, Ok, I'll shutup now...:) > Jordan Gary -- Gary Clark II (N5VMF) | I speak only for myself and "maybe" my company gclarkii@GBData.COM | Member of the FreeBSD Doc Team Providing Internet and ISP startups - http://WWW.GBData.com for information FreeBSD FAQ at ftp://ftp.FreeBSD.ORG/pub/FreeBSD/docs/FAQ.latin1 From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 16:45:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA27537 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 16:45:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA27530 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 16:45:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id JAA00264; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:14:41 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706192344.JAA00264@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: NetBSD on June issue of Byte Magazine In-Reply-To: <199706192212.QAA19059@xmission.xmission.com> from Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC at "Jun 19, 97 04:12:25 pm" To: softweyr@xmission.com (Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:14:41 +0930 (CST) Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC stands accused of saying: > Michael Smith vollied: > > Anyone keeping an eye on the DNARD ("shark" : > > www.digital.com/semiconductor/dna.htm) could have told you this 8) > > Uh, no. If you read the Digital Semiconductor page closely, you will > learn that NetBSD is being distributed with the DNA (Digital Network > Appliance) board as a development system. The final application is > expected to run on "NC Access" from Network Computer Inc. I believe, > but cannot substantiate, that Wind River Systems is a partner in the > OS portion of NC Access. The line I was inferring from makes the claim that once NetBSD has been ported to your modified DNA, porting NC Access will be much easier. I couldn't work out how Having a NetBSD port would greatly help porting anything other than a hacked NetBSD. Perhaps I was overrating the relevance of that comment. > On the other hand, it's a cool little design. I can't wait until > my 2 arrive. ;^) (Only 100 Mhz processors, though. Pooh!) I just can't wait until the schematics are available. 100's? Are you getting a cut-down version or something? If it wasn`t for the FPU, these little puppies would really smoke. > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 17:05:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA28296 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 17:05:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA28284 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 17:05:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id JAA00514; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:35:00 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706200005.JAA00514@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: make world error in RELENG_2_2 In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970619185234.00a47e10@sentex.net> from Mike Tancsa at "Jun 19, 97 06:52:34 pm" To: mike@sentex.net (Mike Tancsa) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:34:59 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mike Tancsa stands accused of saying: > > > >There's no "all of a sudden" about it. These sort of complaints are a > >continual feature of the landscape. I'm just at that point in the > >month wher they set my teeth on edge. > > Ahhh... so, what is the point of the mailling list then ? Are people only > supposed to post success stories? Nooo, but posting "I have a problem" straight up, and expecting someone else to do your detective work with no supporting information is a bit much, you have to admit. > I guess the end of May wasnt that time of month for you... There were > several posts about it in questions. I dont think people are trying to lay > blame, or even criticize the efforts of the FreeBSD developers... But you > would call it incompetence, if someone with who started with 2.2.1, > tracking 2.2-RELENG, who happily does a dozen or so make worlds, then all > of a sudden gets a build failure is automatically user error ? I'll say it again; there are a lot of competent people building the -stable releases on a daily basis. If something is _really_ busted in -stable, there will be loud complaints from lots of people about it. As a less-experienced worlder, best practice is to lurk watching for these outbursts. When you haven't bheard one for a few days, you can be sure the tree is stable and buildable. > If its not > documented anywhere that you have to blow away /usr/include, how are you > supposed to automatically know that? You don't have to blow away /usr/include. I've _never_ had to do this. Blowing away /usr/include is a drastic solution for someone that's managed somehow to toast their include tree and isn't capable of rebuilding it by hand. > And, if these lazy ass people who > have these problems should not post to the mailling list, because it pisses > people off, what are they to do ? You are only discouraging people from > using FreeBSD by this elitist attitude. *sigh* Look; my point is that as a newcomer to any forum or field, it is wise to remain quiet and observe the customs and forms of the environment before leaping in with all feet blazing. Popping up and saying "I am having a problem..." is fine. _Ignoring_ the feedback from experienced users that tells you that the problem is of your own making, and impossible to guess from the information provided, and merely insisting that you have a problem is going to get you ignored - there is nothing that can be done to help you, you refuse to help yourself, so what boots it to try? > Ahhh no... More like "The government should post a sign saying 'Danger, > bridge out on Route B'"... But I guess if you are driving at night and you > dont see that the bridge is out and there is no sign to warn you, its your > own damn fault. Ah, but there _are_ warning signs like that posted. They go to the commit mailing lists, which is what you shoiuld be watching to see if rebuilding the world is even worth the effort. You can summarise these by looking at the additions to the commitlogs if you are cvsupping the entire repository too. Oh, and to answer your question; as someone who covers a lot of ground fast at night, yes, missing a roud outage _is_ your own stupid fault. > >I particularly resent changes and impositions (such as attempting to > >maintain an impossible README) that are meant to make things OK for > >people that are too lazy or careless to learn for themselves. > > So why have any documentation at all ? Documentation is designed to take someone from a fairly well defined initial state to some equally well-defined final state. The documentation you are proposing would have to deal with the almost infinite number of possibly confused initial states, and ultimately there would still be people out of its scope. As I also pointed out, it would never be maintained (experience speaking), so not only would it be incomplete, it'd be wrong too. > >Firstly, they don't work. Secondly, they make life less enjoyable for > >the rest of us. > > So dont read the README?!?! Let us who are in the darkness of mediocraty > and incompetence waste our time as we are spoon fed by documentation.... > Sheesh! You don't understand. You see, someone has to create and maintain this documentation; _that_ is the "less enjoyable" part. > ---Mike (who perhaps had too much coffee) *chuckle* -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 17:19:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA28908 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 17:19:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from online.no (pilt.online.no [193.212.1.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA28900 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 17:19:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from paulja@localhost) by online.no (8.7.6/8.7.3) id CAA24813; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 02:19:05 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199706200019.CAA24813@online.no> From: "Geir Eivind Mork" To: "chat@freebsd.org" Date: Fri, 20 Jun 97 02:18:25 +0100 Reply-To: "Geir Eivind Mork" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: PMMail 1.92 For OS/2 X-Tag: <| IceTag/2 v2.6 |> by Ahmad Al-Nusif (morpheus@moc.kw) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Just a q Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Just a simple Q, I don't have time to buzz with it on my own to solve this q so I ask (easiest way :) .. I've got a Gravis Ultrasound Max, but how can I "install" it in FreeBSD? - -> dreamer^dram - http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/6667 <- - From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 17:19:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA28924 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 17:19:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from online.no (pilt.online.no [193.212.1.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA28902 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 17:19:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from paulja@localhost) by online.no (8.7.6/8.7.3) id CAA24744; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 02:18:56 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199706200018.CAA24744@online.no> From: "Geir Eivind Mork" To: "chat@freebsd.org" Date: Fri, 20 Jun 97 02:18:25 +0100 Reply-To: "Geir Eivind Mork" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: PMMail 1.92 For OS/2 X-Tag: <| IceTag/2 v2.6 |> by Ahmad Al-Nusif (morpheus@moc.kw) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Just a q Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Just a simple Q, I don't have time to buzz with it on my own to solve this q so I ask (easiest way :) .. I've got a Gravis Ultrasound Max, but how can I "install" it in FreeBSD? - -> dreamer^dram - http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/6667 <- - From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 18:30:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA02029 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 18:30:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA02024 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 18:30:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id VAA13990; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:30:40 -0400 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:30:40 -0400 Message-Id: <199706200130.VAA13990@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: grog@lemis.com CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199706190746.PAA00864@papillon.lemis.com> (grog@lemis.com) Subject: Re: TCL From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> I also find that when I'm writing C code in Perl, I'm not using Perl >> effectively. Instead it's most effective to think in Perl terms >> when writing Perl, and in C terms when writing C. > Sure. That's one of my gripes. I don't think that the learning > effective use of the group (Perl,TCL,) is > worth the trouble. I still don't follow you. My argument is that you think differently when you use different languages. Use the language that best describes what you're thinking for the problem. Don't use assembler or Fortran to solve the Towers of Hanoi, use Lisp. (I had to say that; last night I wrote a bit-manipulating assembler-oriented iterative solution. I'm not sure whether to be proud or horrified at the outcome.) Perl also changed the way I thought of programming to its extent. When I started hacking Perl, I discovered that I had been too caught up in formalism and modularity and whatnot to effectively hack small tools. Now I will use Perl for lots of piddly sysadmin-type jobs and CGI scripts which would take me exponentially longer to write in C, simply because C so sorely lacks effective string-handling capabilities. Lex was once characterized as the Swiss army knife of Unix programming. Awk was later described as the Swiss army chainsaw of Unix programming. I will submit that Perl is the Swiss army flamethrower of Unix programming. Fast (to write, not to run), effective, easy to use. I agree that people write ungodly programs in Perl, TCL, and any other language. These languages were made to design tools, not garages. Using them beyond their capabilities is foolish, because you will hit a wall. However, deciding against using a language because it cannot effectively be used for large projects is equally foolish, because you are throwing away good functionality and starting with wheels and pulleys and always having to build your own internal combustion engine each time. > I was unhappy enough to discover that I couldn't do everything in > LISP. ? Happy hacking, joelh -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 19:07:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA03648 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 19:07:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [198.53.145.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA03638 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 19:07:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ip213-44.cc.interlog.com (ip213-44.cc.interlog.com [207.34.213.44]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.8.3/8.7.6) with SMTP id WAA10557; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 22:06:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 22:06:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199706200206.WAA10557@smtp.interlog.com> X-Sender: paulg@mail.interlog.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu From: Paul Griffith Subject: Re: Status on LS-120 drive support? (moving to chat...) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 01:24 AM 6/19/97 -0400, you wrote: >[moved to -chat instead of cross-psoting to -hackers and -chat] > >>> any other similar drive. The media is everywhere--computer stores, office >>> supply stores, technical bookstores. And we all know somebody that has >>> one, so they're well-tested and great for exchanging with friends. >> Don't forget that Zip is available is a SCSI version, which makes it >>usable on non-intel systems like Mac, Sparc, and SGI. I don't believe >>that an IDE-only solution will take off for this reason. > >Macs recently started using IDE. But I don't know how well the >(laughable) ATAPI/IDE standard handles cross-platform issues. > >Happy hacking, >joelh The Macs notebooks all now have internal IDE HD and CDROMS, but all there current computers have external SCSI. On the higher end Mac it's all SCSI, internal and external. Apple has set ATAPI/IDE for it's PB, home, and educational due to lower cost factor. Paul Griffith BTW: Some of the Macs now come standard with SCSI Zip drives. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 19:17:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA03959 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 19:17:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmission.xmission.com (softweyr@xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA03954 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 19:17:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from softweyr@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) id UAA00946; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 20:16:29 -0600 (MDT) From: Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC Message-Id: <199706200216.UAA00946@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: NetBSD on June issue of Byte Magazine To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 20:16:27 -0600 (MDT) Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199706192344.JAA00264@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Jun 20, 97 09:14:41 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I just can't wait until the schematics are available. 100's? Are you > getting a cut-down version or something? If it wasn`t for the FPU, > these little puppies would really smoke. Apparently the DNA board can support *ANY* SA-110 chip, and DEC is charging more for the 233's than the 100's. This is a freebie from our local Digital Semi distributor, so I let him off the hook a little bit and agree to two boards with 100 Mhz chips. He's paying for them, but we're his biggest customer for 2104x and 2114x chips, so he's not going to complain too much. ;^) Ostensibly, we're using these boards to evaluate the SA-110 for future embedded designs. We will be doing that, of course, but we'll also be taking them home - one for me, and one for my buddy here who discovered them. ;^) He's a Newton-head and likes the SA chip. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 20:23:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA06781 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 20:23:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA06773 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 20:23:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mcfeely.concentric.net (mcfeely [207.155.184.83]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.5/(97/05/21 3.30)) id XAA25202; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 23:22:24 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from shag (ts001d11.sal-ut.concentric.net [206.173.156.23]) by mcfeely.concentric.net (8.8.5) id XAA17039; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 23:22:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <33A9F720.5E39DDD6@concentric.net> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:21:04 -0600 From: Joshua Fielden Organization: Shaggy Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Griffith CC: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Status on LS-120 drive support? (moving to chat...) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199706200206.WAA10557@smtp.interlog.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Paul Griffith wrote: > > > >Macs recently started using IDE. But I don't know how well the > >(laughable) ATAPI/IDE standard handles cross-platform issues. > > > >Happy hacking, > >joelh > > The Macs notebooks all now have internal IDE HD and CDROMS, but all there > current computers have external SCSI. On the higher end Mac it's all SCSI, > internal and external. Apple has set ATAPI/IDE for it's PB, home, and > educational due to lower cost factor. > > Paul Griffith > BTW: Some of the Macs now come standard with SCSI Zip drives. > Well, I was working at FWB when they put out their EIDE/IDE-capable Hard Disk Toolkit and CDROM toolkit, so I saw a lot of testing, and a lot of data. The Mac-based implementation of IDE is hoky at best, but almost 100% of drives that work on PC's will work on Macs. The problem for an IDE non-hd is getting a driver for said drive. Oh, and as an aside, Apple also chose the IDE drive for powerbooks because of power needs vs. performance. That's also the reason there hasn't been an internal terminator since the 5300/190/2300, and that all internal terminators on PowerBooks have been hoky at best. -- SCSI is *not* magic. There are many technical reasons why it is occasionally nessicary to sacrifice a small goat to your SCSI chain. --Joshua Fielden From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 20:40:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA07824 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 20:40:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from suntan.tandem.com (suntan.tandem.com [192.216.221.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA07818 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 20:40:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Greg Lehey Received: from papillon.lemis.com by suntan.tandem.com (8.6.12/suntan5.970212) id UAA09358; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 20:40:22 -0700 Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.4/8.6.12) id LAA00673; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 11:29:36 +0800 (HKT) Message-Id: <199706200329.LAA00673@papillon.lemis.com> Subject: Re: TCL In-Reply-To: <199706200130.VAA13990@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> from Joel Ray Holveck at "Jun 19, 97 09:30:40 pm" To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 11:29:34 +0800 (HKT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Reply-to: grog@FreeBSD.ORG (Greg Lehey) WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/~grog X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joel Ray Holveck writes: > >>> I also find that when I'm writing C code in Perl, I'm not using Perl >>> effectively. Instead it's most effective to think in Perl terms >>> when writing Perl, and in C terms when writing C. >> Sure. That's one of my gripes. I don't think that the learning >> effective use of the group (Perl,TCL,) is >> worth the trouble. > > I still don't follow you. My argument is that you think differently > when you use different languages. Use the language that best > describes what you're thinking for the problem. Don't use assembler > or Fortran to solve the Towers of Hanoi, use Lisp. (I had to say > that; last night I wrote a bit-manipulating assembler-oriented > iterative solution. I'm not sure whether to be proud or horrified at > the outcome.) I don't know how interesting this is to the mainstream, so maybe we should take it offline. Still, I'll have one last bash. Yes, to get the maximum out of a programming language, you also need to change the way you think. But I still want to be in control. IMO, the time taken to add a new way of thinking is just not justified by the amount of time it saves me. > Perl also changed the way I thought of programming to its extent. > When I started hacking Perl, I discovered that I had been too caught > up in formalism and modularity and whatnot to effectively hack small > tools. Now I will use Perl for lots of piddly sysadmin-type jobs and > CGI scripts which would take me exponentially longer to write in C, > simply because C so sorely lacks effective string-handling > capabilities. Lex was once characterized as the Swiss army knife of > Unix programming. Awk was later described as the Swiss army chainsaw > of Unix programming. I will submit that Perl is the Swiss army > flamethrower of Unix programming. Fast (to write, not to run), > effective, easy to use. :-) Yes, once you've changed your ways of thinking to suit Perl or TCL, they can be useful. And yes, I don't write piddly little C programs because they require too much effort. The bottom line is that, for me, the effort currently just isn't worth it. That may change, and I don't promise not to learn (and use) one or the other. But I don't see it coming Real Soon Now. > I agree that people write ungodly programs in Perl, TCL, and any other > language. These languages were made to design tools, not garages. > Using them beyond their capabilities is foolish, because you will hit > a wall. However, deciding against using a language because it cannot > effectively be used for large projects is equally foolish, because you > are throwing away good functionality and starting with wheels and > pulleys and always having to build your own internal combustion engine > each time. Well, no, every car hacker I know has a shedful of old bits and pieces. I have a shedful of old C programs which I can modify to do what I want, including a few internal combustion engines. >> I was unhappy enough to discover that I couldn't do everything in >> LISP. > > ? Please explain '?'. Do you mean, "what, you mean you *can't* do everything in LISP?" In that case, yes, you *can't* do everything in LISP. Or at least, not as easily as in C--take kernels, for example. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 20:47:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA08235 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 20:47:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA08223 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 20:47:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id NAA01982; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 13:16:53 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706200346.NAA01982@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: NetBSD on June issue of Byte Magazine In-Reply-To: <199706200216.UAA00946@xmission.xmission.com> from Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC at "Jun 19, 97 08:16:27 pm" To: softweyr@xmission.com (Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 13:16:52 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC stands accused of saying: > > Apparently the DNA board can support *ANY* SA-110 chip, and DEC is > charging more for the 233's than the 100's. This is a freebie from our > local Digital Semi distributor, so I let him off the hook a little bit > and agree to two boards with 100 Mhz chips. He's paying for them, but > we're his biggest customer for 2104x and 2114x chips, so he's not going > to complain too much. ;^) Hmm, how much are the DNA boards from Digital, if I might ask? > Ostensibly, we're using these boards to evaluate the SA-110 for future > embedded designs. We will be doing that, of course, but we'll also be > taking them home - one for me, and one for my buddy here who discovered > them. ;^) He's a Newton-head and likes the SA chip. If you like the ARM for "future designs", have a look at the Cirrus ARM-based part; onboard video, DRAM controller, ISA bus, 32KHz audio, etc. > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 20:56:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA08774 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 20:56:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA08767 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 20:56:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id NAA02134; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 13:26:14 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706200356.NAA02134@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Status on LS-120 drive support? (moving to chat...) In-Reply-To: <33A9F720.5E39DDD6@concentric.net> from Joshua Fielden at "Jun 19, 97 09:21:04 pm" To: shag@concentric.net (Joshua Fielden) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 13:26:13 +0930 (CST) Cc: paulg@interlog.com, joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joshua Fielden stands accused of saying: > Oh, and as an aside, Apple also chose the IDE drive for powerbooks > because of power needs vs. performance. That's also the reason there > hasn't been an internal terminator since the 5300/190/2300, and that all > internal terminators on PowerBooks have been hoky at best. This is because Apple are a bunch of cheap bastards. Passive terminators are cheap, but use a lot of power. Active termination costs a few cents more, but uses almost no power (when idle). > --Joshua Fielden -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 21:32:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA09927 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:32:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sand.sentex.ca (sand.sentex.ca [206.222.77.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA09840 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:31:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gravel (gravel.sentex.ca [205.211.165.210]) by sand.sentex.ca (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id AAA05606; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 00:42:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19970620003333.02736100@sentex.net> X-Sender: mdtancsa@sentex.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 00:33:33 -0400 To: Michael Smith From: Mike Tancsa Subject: Re: make world error in RELENG_2_2 Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199706200005.JAA00514@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> References: <3.0.2.32.19970619185234.00a47e10@sentex.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 09:34 AM 6/20/97 +0930, Michael Smith wrote: >Mike Tancsa stands accused of saying: >> Ahhh... so, what is the point of the mailling list then ? Are people only >> supposed to post success stories? > >Nooo, but posting "I have a problem" straight up, and expecting >someone else to do your detective work with no supporting information >is a bit much, you have to admit. What a nice assumption to make... That someone posting to the list ran to the list without even trying to figure it out for themselves... I have been following the major groups since last Sept. 96. Whenever I have posted a question, it has always been _after_ looking through the archives. I search through both the www.freebsd.org, and dejanews.. If I cant find the answer there, or I cant figure it out myself, I will then make a posting... Thanks for the benefit of the doubt eh? > >> I guess the end of May wasnt that time of month for you... There were >> several posts about it in questions. I dont think people are trying to lay >> blame, or even criticize the efforts of the FreeBSD developers... But you >> would call it incompetence, if someone with who started with 2.2.1, >> tracking 2.2-RELENG, who happily does a dozen or so make worlds, then all >> of a sudden gets a build failure is automatically user error ? > >I'll say it again; there are a lot of competent people building the >-stable releases on a daily basis. If something is _really_ busted in >-stable, there will be loud complaints from lots of people about it. >As a less-experienced worlder, best practice is to lurk watching for >these outbursts. When you haven't bheard one for a few days, you can >be sure the tree is stable and buildable. The day I ran into the /usr/include problem, other people made posts reporting the same problem... remember Re: /usr/include/ufs/ffs missing?...Make world failure on 2.2-RELENG Re: Subject: 2.2.1 -> 2.2.2: "make world" fails > >> If its not >> documented anywhere that you have to blow away /usr/include, how are you >> supposed to automatically know that? > >You don't have to blow away /usr/include. I've _never_ had to do >this. Blowing away /usr/include is a drastic solution for someone >that's managed somehow to toast their include tree and isn't capable >of rebuilding it by hand. the -DCLOBBER did the trick for me and was reccomended by a couple of people... >> And, if these lazy ass people who >> have these problems should not post to the mailling list, because it pisses >> people off, what are they to do ? You are only discouraging people from >> using FreeBSD by this elitist attitude. > >*sigh* Look; my point is that as a newcomer to any forum or field, it is >wise to remain quiet and observe the customs and forms of the environment >before leaping in with all feet blazing. I have been reading since last Sept or so... I have made posts on topics that I am reasonably comfortable with to help out where I can and attempt to answer what I know... Like how many questions have there been lately about the login.conf issue... If I didnt see an answer to it yet, I like many other people answered the question... I didnt see anyone else saying in effect 'piss off, you are annoying me with your incompetent questions.' With the make world problems I had, others had the same problems... A few people responded, all was well again, and the knowledge has been saved for posterity in some archive(s)... And if I see a similar question in the future, I will pass on what I have accumulated, as others have passed onto me. >> So why have any documentation at all ? > >Documentation is designed to take someone from a fairly well defined >initial state to some equally well-defined final state. >The >documentation you are proposing would have to deal with the almost >infinite number of possibly confused initial states, and ultimately >there would still be people out of its scope. As I also pointed out, >it would never be maintained (experience speaking), so not only would >it be incomplete, it'd be wrong too. I dont think thats the only definition of what good documentation is about, nor do I think what I was saying is unattainable (and yeah, experience speaking as well...) > >> >Firstly, they don't work. Secondly, they make life less enjoyable for >> >the rest of us. >> >> So dont read the README?!?! Let us who are in the darkness of mediocraty >> and incompetence waste our time as we are spoon fed by documentation.... >> Sheesh! > >You don't understand. You see, someone has to create and maintain >this documentation; _that_ is the "less enjoyable" part. I wasnt suggesting books... The three tips JK suggested, and the note about the -DCLOBBER on the includes could go a long way. ---Mike ********************************************************************** Mike Tancsa (mike@sentex.net) * To do is to be -- Nietzsche Sentex Communications Corp, * To be is to do -- Sartre Cambridge, Ontario * Do be do be do -- Sinatra (http://www.sentex.net/~mdtancsa) * From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 22:55:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA13310 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 22:55:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA13303 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 22:55:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA26148; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 22:55:07 -0700 (PDT) To: Mike Tancsa cc: Michael Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: make world error in RELENG_2_2 In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 19 Jun 1997 18:52:34 EDT." <3.0.2.32.19970619185234.00a47e10@sentex.net> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 22:55:06 -0700 Message-ID: <26144.866786106@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > blame, or even criticize the efforts of the FreeBSD developers... But you > would call it incompetence, if someone with who started with 2.2.1, > tracking 2.2-RELENG, who happily does a dozen or so make worlds, then all > of a sudden gets a build failure is automatically user error ? If its not See my previous reply - it's not automatically user error, simply that the user is expected to fix it themselves or watch on the mailing list for a day or two to see if it's a general build failure. > documented anywhere that you have to blow away /usr/include, how are you > supposed to automatically know that? And, if these lazy ass people who You look at the Makefile and figure out what the dependencies are. If you're not good enough to do that, you shouldn't be messing with /usr/src at all and should follow just the main releases. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 19 23:40:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA15602 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 23:40:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA15597 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 23:40:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA26345; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 23:40:07 -0700 (PDT) To: Mike Tancsa cc: Michael Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: make world error in RELENG_2_2 In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 20 Jun 1997 00:33:33 EDT." <3.0.2.32.19970620003333.02736100@sentex.net> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 23:40:07 -0700 Message-ID: <26341.866788807@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > The day I ran into the /usr/include problem, other people made posts > reporting the same problem... > > remember > Re: /usr/include/ufs/ffs missing?...Make world failure on 2.2-RELENG > Re: Subject: 2.2.1 -> 2.2.2: "make world" fails They made the same mistake you did - that's all this proves. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 20 00:26:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA17833 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 00:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from matrix.42.org (sec@matrix.42.org [192.68.213.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA17828 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 00:26:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sec@localhost) by matrix.42.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA12891; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:26:22 +0200 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Path: sec From: sec@42.org (Stefan `Sec` Zehl) Newsgroups: muc.lists.freebsd.chat Subject: Re: OS/2 users going to FreeBSD? :-) Date: 20 Jun 1997 09:26:19 +0200 Organization: Internet@home Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <199706191239.IAA14178@gatekeeper.itribe.net> <19970619215751.20461@keltia.freenix.fr> X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.3.0-2 BETA UNIX) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <19970619215751.20461@keltia.freenix.fr>, Ollivier Robert wrote: > What makes me reluctant to switch from tcsh to zsh is that tcsh has always > succeeded in keeping the tty state clean whereas I still have a messed up > tty sometimes under zsh. did you try "ttyctl -f" ? CU, Sec -- Fuer die Raupe ist es das Ende der Welt, Fuer den Rest der Welt ist es ein Schmetterling Error 0: No error From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 20 00:47:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA18745 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 00:47:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helbig.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de (helbig.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de [141.31.166.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA18740 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 00:47:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from helbig@localhost) by helbig.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA22296; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:47:24 +0200 (MET DST) From: Wolfgang Helbig Message-Id: <199706200747.JAA22296@helbig.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de> Subject: Re: Just a q In-Reply-To: <199706200018.CAA24744@online.no> from Geir Eivind Mork at "Jun 20, 97 02:18:25 am" To: gemork@online.no Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:47:24 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL30 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Just a simple Q, I don't have time to buzz with it on my own to solve this q so I ask (easiest way :) .. > > I've got a Gravis Ultrasound Max, but how can I "install" it in FreeBSD? Well, I'll choose the easiest way as well and point you to the docs: You''ll have to build a customized kernel. This process is explained in /usr/share/doc/handbook/... In /usr/src/sys/i386/conf/LINT you'll find some remarks about the driver. Wolfgang > > > - -> dreamer^dram - http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/6667 <- - > > From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 20 07:08:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA04490 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 07:08:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA04484 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 07:07:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id XAA04999; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 23:37:46 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706201407.XAA04999@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Announcement: New DPT RAID Controller Driver Available In-Reply-To: <27545.866803027@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Jun 20, 97 03:37:07 am" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 23:37:46 +0930 (CST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying: > > Erm, I think the difference we're probably seeing with wcarchive is > the fact that each drive bay doesn't hold more than 8 drives (most > holding far fewer) and is independantly bolted to the rack. That > probably provides pretty good vibration isolation, but undoubtedly also > at a drive-to-housing cost ratio which would be unacceptable to the > truly big RAID builder. That depends. The truly big RAID builder would be a total bannana if they didn't have an airconditioning engineer on the team, and there'd be lots of screaming about BTU's per cubic metre if the picture you're painting was as extreme as it is fun to imagine 8) > I would also be suspicious of the cooling properties of a plastic > drive enclosure (it seems like packing it in a mini-Igloo ice chest > would be no worse to me ;-), Again, depending on your definition of "serious", if you're going to depend on the thermal conductivity of your mounting hardware, it's only a small step to a small chiller unit and some water-cooled mountings. This would let you get your drive density back up, and save on rack volume that you would otherwise have dedicated to airflow. > Unless, of course, they had something like the AMES wind tunnel > providing forced airflow past the drives, then I suppose the plastic > sled construction wouldn't really matter much, would it? :-) High airflow velocity doesn't guarantee the best cooling; often this just gets you lots of turbulence near the drives and pushes the bulk of the air right past without actually picking up much heat at all. Oops, sorry, rambling again. Most of this is pickup from reading I did last year on stuff related to keeping a rack full of decidedly hot mixed-signal (low-power RF, logik, high-power RF) boards cool in a sealed room. In the end, they installed the heat exchanger for the A/C unit near the floor anyway, and the whole exercise was wasted (now they just have problems with snow and stuff coming in the window...). Moral of the story? Reinforcement of the "the best solution is rarely obvious, and often different from last time" concept that others have put forwards... > Jordan -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 20 07:39:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA05949 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 07:39:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA05380; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 07:29:50 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199706201429.HAA05380@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports INDEX To: phk@dk.tfs.com (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 07:29:50 -0700 (PDT) Cc: peter@spinner.dialix.com.au, asami@cs.berkeley.edu, jkh@time.cdrom.com, chat In-Reply-To: <3988.866777845@critter.dk.tfs.com> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at Jun 20, 97 05:37:25 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > In message <199706200307.LAA11371@spinner.dialix.com.au>, Peter Wemm writes: > >Satoshi Asami wrote: > >> * Soooooooooo clooooooose. Just one final push folks, and Satoshi sings > >> * the national anthem! :-) > >> > >> Um, of which country? ;) > > > >You mean we'll be able to understand it well enough to tell which anthem > >it is? :-) > > You know, the FreeBSD anthem, the one that is sung to the tune > from the Admirals song from Gilber&Sullivans Pinafore: > > Stay close to the source > and never stray from 'C' > and stay in tune with > the Free-B-S-D Gilbert&Sullivan........ack! satoshi, we recant everythig we ever said about your lyric save us from Gilbert&Sullivan please...... jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 20 11:30:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA16771 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 11:30:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA16765 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 11:30:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id UAA22141 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 20:30:05 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.6.12) with UUCP id UAA22609 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 20:30:02 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.5/keltia-uucp-2.9) id UAA12876; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 20:18:58 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970620201858.04493@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 20:18:58 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OS/2 users going to FreeBSD? :-) References: <199706191239.IAA14178@gatekeeper.itribe.net> <19970619215751.20461@keltia.freenix.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 In-Reply-To: ; from Stefan `Sec` Zehl on Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 09:26:19AM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#3392 AMD-K6 MMX @ 208 MHz Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Stefan `Sec` Zehl: > did you try "ttyctl -f" ? RTFM time I guess. Thanks, I'm glad they've finally added this to zsh. Now if only %{...%} would work inside PS1 (see my other message), I'd almost ready to switch (sorry, been using tcsh since 5.08 in '88 so I am very careful :-)) -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #20: Fri Jun 13 00:16:13 CEST 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 20 14:13:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA25193 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 14:13:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [207.170.17.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA25184 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 14:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA07987; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 16:58:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: (jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id QAA09283; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 16:14:51 -0500 Message-ID: <19970620161450.18176@right.PCS> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 16:14:51 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Ollivier Robert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OS/2 users going to FreeBSD? :-) References: <199706191239.IAA14178@gatekeeper.itribe.net> <19970619215751.20461@keltia.freenix.fr> <19970620201858.04493@keltia.freenix.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: <19970620201858.04493@keltia.freenix.fr>; from Ollivier Robert on Jun 06, 1997 at 08:18:58PM +0200 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Jun 06, 1997 at 08:18:58PM +0200, Ollivier Robert wrote: > According to Stefan `Sec` Zehl: > > did you try "ttyctl -f" ? > > RTFM time I guess. Thanks, I'm glad they've finally added this to zsh. > > Now if only %{...%} would work inside PS1 (see my other message), I'd > almost ready to switch (sorry, been using tcsh since 5.08 in '88 so I am > very careful :-)) Heh. You're not the only one - I've been using tcsh almost as long. I really like some features of zsh (multiline-editing?) and hate some features of tcsh (I _really_ want to say "2>/dev/null") but... I use the alias features of tcsh heavily, especially the "!*" construct, and don't want to give that up. Does zsh support command substitution in aliasing? -- Jonathan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 20 14:53:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA27206 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 14:53:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA27196 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 14:53:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id XAA22592 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 23:53:35 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.6.12) with UUCP id XAA24529 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 23:53:33 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.6/keltia-uucp-2.9) id XAA20882; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 23:31:12 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970620233112.04222@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 23:31:12 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OS/2 users going to FreeBSD? :-) References: <199706191239.IAA14178@gatekeeper.itribe.net> <19970619215751.20461@keltia.freenix.fr> <19970620201858.04493@keltia.freenix.fr> <19970620161450.18176@right.PCS> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 In-Reply-To: <19970620161450.18176@right.PCS>; from Jonathan Lemon on Fri, Jun 20, 1997 at 04:14:51PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#3392 AMD-K6 MMX @ 208 MHz Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Jonathan Lemon: > I use the alias features of tcsh heavily, especially the "!*" construct, and > don't want to give that up. Does zsh support command substitution in > aliasing? Yes. It supports many things from csh too... Extracted from the FAQ: 1. If the csh alias references "parameters" (\!:1 \!* etc.), then in zsh you need a function (referencing $1 $* etc.). Otherwise, you can use a zsh alias. 2. If you use a zsh function, you need to refer _at_least_ to $* in the body (inside the { }). Parameters don't magically appear inside the { } the way they get appended to an alias. 3. If the csh alias references its own name (alias rm "rm -i"), then in a zsh function you need the "command" keyword (function rm() { command rm -i $* }), but in a zsh alias you don't (alias rm="rm -i"). 4. If you have aliases that refer to each other (alias ls "ls -C"; alias lf "ls -F" ==> lf == ls -C -F) then you must either: a. convert all of them to zsh functions; or b. after converting, be sure your .zshrc defines all of your aliases before it defines any of your functions. Those first four are all you really need, but here are four more for heavy csh alias junkies: 5. Mapping from csh alias "parameter referencing" into zsh function (assuming shwordsplit and ksharrays are NOT set in zsh): csh zsh ===== ========== \!* $* (or $argv) \!^ $1 (or $argv[1]) \!:1 $1 \!:2 $2 (or $argv[2], etc.) \!$ $*[$#] (or $argv[$#], or $*[-1]) \!:1-4 $*[1,4] \!:1- $*[1,$#-1] (or $*[1,-2]) \!^- $*[1,$#-1] \!*:q "$@" ($*:q doesn't work (yet)) \!*:x $=* ($*:x doesn't work (yet)) I've sent a bug report for %{...%}. We'll see. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #20: Fri Jun 13 00:16:13 CEST 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 21 12:56:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA16361 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 21 Jun 1997 12:56:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.logic.it (gal.logic.it [195.120.151.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA16356 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 1997 12:56:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [195.120.151.31] by gal.logic.it (NTMail 3.02.12) with ESMTP id ea215258 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 1997 21:54:42 +0200 Received: by dumbwinter.ecomotor.it (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0wfWFb-00004oC; Sat, 21 Jun 97 21:55 MET DST Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 21:55:09 +0200 (MET DST) From: Marco Molteni X-Sender: molter@dumbwinter.ecomotor.it To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Micro$oft ??? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk he he he... I've just tried xbill, from the games packages... Guys, try it !!! he he he... --- Marco Molteni Computer Science student at the Universita' di Milano, Italy. "You can't trust code that you did not totally create yourself. (Especially code from companies that employ people like me)." Ken Thompson, 1983 Turing Award Lecture. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 21 20:35:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA05288 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 21 Jun 1997 20:35:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ki1.chemie.fu-berlin.de (ki1.chemie.fu-berlin.de [160.45.24.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA05283 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 1997 20:35:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ki1.chemie.fu-berlin.de (Smail3.1.28.1) from mail.hanse.de (193.174.9.9) with smtp id ; Sun, 22 Jun 97 05:35 MEST Received: from wavehh.UUCP by mail.hanse.de with UUCP for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org id ; Sun, 22 Jun 97 05:35 MET DST Received: by wavehh.hanse.de (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA24959; Sat, 21 Jun 97 22:16:21 +0200 Date: Sat, 21 Jun 97 22:16:21 +0200 From: cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de (Martin Cracauer) Message-Id: <9706212016.AA24959@wavehh.hanse.de> To: softweyr@xmission.COM Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: c++ Newsgroups: hanse-ml.freebsd.chat References: <199706192121.PAA08298@xmission.xmission.com> Reply-To: cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk softweyr@xmission.COM (Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC) wrote: >Apparently you've never worked on a large software project with many >similar but not identical elements; this is what C++ really excels at. >If you've looked at C++ but NOT object-oriented design, it's not a >wonder you "dont get it" yet. Last year, I and another engineer >developed a 70,000 line switching application in C++, debugged, tested, >out the door in 13 months. This was in an embedded system, and had to >be rock solid - no memory leaks, no resources losses of any sort. We >literally couldn't have done it with the constraints we had without >C++. Not to start a language war here, but FreeBSD also offers OO languages that don't require becoming a language lawyer and that have much less buggy free implementations, while still offering everything you mention. Objective-C (standard on FreeBSD base system) and Modula-3 (port) come to mind. Anyone having ununderstood problems with C++ should have a look at these. IMHO, of course :-) Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin_Cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de http://cracauer.cons.org Fax.: +4940 5228536 "As far as I'm concerned, if something is so complicated that you can't ex- plain it in 10 seconds, then it's probably not worth knowing anyway"- Calvin From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 21 21:19:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA06897 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 21 Jun 1997 21:19:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA06885 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 1997 21:19:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA00390; Sat, 21 Jun 1997 21:19:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706220419.VAA00390@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de cc: softweyr@xmission.COM, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: c++ In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 21 Jun 1997 22:16:21 +0200." <9706212016.AA24959@wavehh.hanse.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 21:19:39 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of Martin Cracauer : > Anyone having ununderstood problems with C++ should have a look at > these. IMHO, of course :-) > Language wars are nice however I rather have full development environs with their supporting structure for developing systems 8) Amancio