From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 6 00:51:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA13110 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 00:51:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA13102 for ; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 00:51:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA20079 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 09:51:41 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA15831; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 09:37:04 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970706093704.GG62174@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 09:37:04 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: UNREGISTERED XV on SGI Workstations References: <199707060606.XAA10146@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199707060606.XAA10146@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Jul 5, 1997 23:06:02 -0700 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Amancio Hasty wrote: > Just caught a glimpse at JPL using XV on a SGI Workstation and it > was unregistered :( Did you ever try registering xv? Our company tried, but eventually gave up. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 6 08:44:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA25909 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 08:44:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co ([168.176.15.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA25901 for ; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 08:44:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem16.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.46]) by ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA05601; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 10:45:35 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <33BFD887.3C91@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 10:40:23 -0700 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Reply-To: m230761@ingenieria.ingsala.unal.edu.co Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Amancio Hasty CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Could FreeBSD.org host a Mars Mission Web Page?? References: <199707060651.XAA10455@rah.star-gate.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Amancio Hasty wrote: > > Just noticed that sgi volunteered a web server. > > Cheers, > Amancio Since the start they mirrored everything on one of their boxes, now they donated a big server http://mpfwww.jpl.nasa.gov . It would be a very heavy load (for at least a month?), but it would be a great publicity for FreeBSD, and an unprecedented demo of a free system. Pedro. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 6 08:56:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA26252 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 08:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eva.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (eva.cs.uni-magdeburg.de [141.44.21.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA26247 for ; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 08:56:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pflaume.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (pflaume.cs.uni-magdeburg.de [141.44.21.44]) by eva.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.8.2/8.8.2) with SMTP id RAA12954 for ; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 17:56:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by pflaume.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA12719; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 17:56:29 +0200 Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 17:56:29 +0200 From: jesse@eva.cs.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Roland Jesse) Message-Id: <199707061556.RAA12719@pflaume.cs.uni-magdeburg.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: FBSD-Team for "The Bovine RC5 Cracking Effort" X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under Emacs 19.34.1 Reply-To: jesse@eva.cs.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Roland Jesse) X-Organization: University of Magdeburg X-Pgp-Fingerprint: 5D 08 5A E3 B4 AA 68 C1 FF 67 06 29 62 DD 9A D7 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I just checked the statistics of the above RSA-Challenge at http://rc5.distributed.net/stats/email.html. On first place there is a team called "linux@linuxnet.org". I just thought about the possibility of a FreeBSD team, too. Ok, that's nothing really importand but it would look pretty nice to see not only this linux thing all around but some freebsd-ish kind of 'advertisement'. My question here: Is it possible to create a (mail) account with a nice address like freebsd@freebsd.org or something like that? More information about the effort can be found at the address in my sig. Roland -- Why are US encryption export restrictions far too strong? >>> http://rc5.distributed.net/ <<< From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 6 09:07:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA26556 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 09:07:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from federation.addy.com (federation.addy.com [207.239.68.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA26551 for ; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 09:07:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freyes.dh.i-2000.com (slip166-72-219-71.ny.us.ibm.net [166.72.219.71]) by federation.addy.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA03018 for ; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:07:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199707061607.MAA03018@federation.addy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "FreeBSd Chat list" Date: Sun, 06 Jul 97 12:05:26 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: PMMail 1.92 For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: I will sue FreeBSD project (..attempt at a joke..) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk After having problems with what I think is an incorrect Geometry I was trying things with Pfdisk and ended up wiping up wiping out my entire HD. I am thinking on suing the FreeBSD project (again this is just a --joke--). I will argue in the case that I have suffered irreparable severe psychological damages. I have recurring dreams of living in hell and a little daemon chasing me around trying to poke me; the dream gets' even worse. I find an elevator to escape to a higher level and when the door opens I am in Limbo with the clouds of the background of win95 and the startup sound from win95 is playing over and over. I will also argue in court that FreeBSD doesn't have an installation program "comparable" to other OS's even less capable and that this was the reason of my irreparable losses. As punitive damages I will seek that the people who wrote the installation software should be sentenced to run ONLY Win95 on their computers for the rest of their lives! From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 6 09:44:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA28102 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 09:44:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hwcn.org (main.hwcn.org [199.212.94.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA28097 for ; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 09:44:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hwcn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA14920; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:44:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA01978; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:44:55 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:44:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: ac199@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca Reply-To: hoek@hwcn.org To: Francisco Reyes cc: FreeBSd Chat list Subject: Re: I will sue FreeBSD project (..attempt at a joke..) In-Reply-To: <199707061607.MAA03018@federation.addy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 6 Jul 1997, Francisco Reyes wrote: > I am thinking on suing the FreeBSD project (again this is just a > --joke--). > I will argue in the case that I have suffered irreparable severe > psychological damages. I have recurring dreams of living in hell and a > little daemon chasing me around trying to poke me; the dream gets' even Hehe... Like a complex game of Clue(tm). "I accuse the daemon of doing it in the TCP layer with an mbuf". :) > As punitive damages I will seek that the people who wrote the > installation software should be sentenced to run ONLY Win95 on their > computers for the rest of their lives! Force them to write a driver for every antiquated ISA device you can find! :) -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 6 11:22:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA00723 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 11:22:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA00706 for ; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 11:22:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id UAA28491; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 20:22:35 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA24100; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 18:47:12 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970706184711.RL39115@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 18:47:11 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSd Chat list) Cc: francisco@natserv.com (Francisco Reyes) Subject: Re: I will sue FreeBSD project (..attempt at a joke..) References: <199707061607.MAA03018@federation.addy.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199707061607.MAA03018@federation.addy.com>; from Francisco Reyes on Jul 6, 1997 12:05:26 -0400 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Francisco Reyes wrote: > After having problems with what I think is an incorrect Geometry I was > trying things with Pfdisk and ended up wiping up wiping out my entire > HD. > > I am thinking on suing the FreeBSD project (again this is just a > --joke--). The joke aside, better sue the inventors of PCs. While all the disks have been block-addressed internally for years now, the PC is still of the dreadful opinion it would need a ``geometry'' for handling a disk. That's the root of all evil (along with all the consequences of this geometry, like a stumpled BIOS, an fdisk table with two redundant specifications of where a slice starts and ends, etc.) Perhaps people now understand why i love the ``dangerously dedicated'' mode... it doesn't care much for anything like a ``geometry''. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 6 18:18:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA15953 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 18:18:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mescaline.gnu.ai.mit.edu (devnull@mescaline.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.63]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA15948 for ; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 18:17:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mescaline.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id VAA05470; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 21:17:49 -0400 Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 21:17:49 -0400 Message-Id: <199707070117.VAA05470@mescaline.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, francisco@natserv.com In-reply-to: <19970706184711.RL39115@uriah.heep.sax.de> (j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Subject: Re: I will sue FreeBSD project (..attempt at a joke..) x-url: http://www.red-bean.com/~nemo x-attribution: nemo x-foobar: Nice computers don't go down. Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 18:47:11 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) The joke aside, better sue the inventors of PCs. While all the disks have been block-addressed internally for years now, the PC is still of the dreadful opinion it would need a ``geometry'' for handling a disk. That's the root of all evil (along with all the consequences of this geometry, like a stumpled BIOS, an fdisk table with two redundant specifications of where a slice starts and ends, etc.) Perhaps people now understand why i love the ``dangerously dedicated'' mode... it doesn't care much for anything like a ``geometry''. Actually, I recently added a disk to a NetBSD alpha, and the thing still needs a geometry... (And yes, it was an 8.5 GB SCSI disk...) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 6 19:18:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA18328 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 19:18:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labs.usn.blaze.net.au (labs.usn.blaze.net.au [203.17.53.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA18323 for ; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 19:18:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labs.usn.blaze.net.au (local [127.0.0.1]) by labs.usn.blaze.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA03690 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:18:56 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199707070218.MAA03690@labs.usn.blaze.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSd Chat list) Subject: Re: I will sue FreeBSD project (..attempt at a joke..) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 06 Jul 1997 18:47:11 +0200." <19970706184711.RL39115@uriah.heep.sax.de> X-Face: (W@z~5kg?"+5?!2kHP)+l369.~a@oTl^8l87|/s8"EH?Uk~P#N+Ec~Z&@;'LL!;3?y Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 12:18:56 +1000 From: David Nugent Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) writes: > Perhaps people now understand why i love the ``dangerously dedicated'' > mode... it doesn't care much for anything like a ``geometry''. I use it exclusively, and have very few problems other than idiot OS's on other disks on the same machine that occasionally find something to complain about (there's only one system this affects anyway, which happens to have OS/2 and DOS on the first drive in a chain of 4). I've not had a great deal of luck with booteasy drives. I'm not sure why, but never bothered much to find out either - if I install FreeBSD, it is the entire disk or nothing. I guess others don't have that luxury, but the majority of machines I install are dedicated 24/7 servers anyway. I read a post by you some weeks back which mentioned that a DD'd drive doesn't need to have fdisk run on it - just disklabel. In theory, I found you were right - only I couldn't stop the kernel complaining about the lack of an fdisk magic number even though I had disklabel'ed and newfs'ed, so I ended up having to use fdisk just to shut it up. :-) Perhaps I missed some step somewhere. Regards, David -- David Nugent - Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia Voice +61-3-9791-9547 Data/BBS +61-3-9792-3507 3:632/348@fidonet davidn@freebsd.org davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn/ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 6 20:01:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA20141 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 20:01:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA20136 for ; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 20:01:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id MAA27411; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:30:33 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199707070300.MAA27411@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: I will sue FreeBSD project (..attempt at a joke..) In-Reply-To: <199707070218.MAA03690@labs.usn.blaze.net.au> from David Nugent at "Jul 7, 97 12:18:56 pm" To: davidn@labs.usn.blaze.net.au (David Nugent) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:30:32 +0930 (CST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk David Nugent stands accused of saying: > theory, I found you were right - only I couldn't stop the kernel > complaining about the lack of an fdisk magic number even though I > had disklabel'ed and newfs'ed, so I ended up having to use fdisk > just to shut it up. :-) Perhaps I missed some step somewhere. Yeah, put a bootsector on the disk; I use : disklabel -rwB sd0 auto for preparing Jaz disks. > David -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 6 21:32:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA23140 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 21:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA23122 for ; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 21:32:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id GAA13401 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 06:31:54 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.6.12) with UUCP id GAA32065 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 06:31:19 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.6/keltia-uucp-2.9) id AAA05326; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:17:34 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970707001733.52140@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:17:33 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FBSD-Team for "The Bovine RC5 Cracking Effort" References: <199707061556.RAA12719@pflaume.cs.uni-magdeburg.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 In-Reply-To: <199707061556.RAA12719@pflaume.cs.uni-magdeburg.de>; from Roland Jesse on Sun, Jul 06, 1997 at 05:56:29PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#3392 AMD-K6 MMX @ 208 MHz Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Roland Jesse: > On first place there is a team called "linux@linuxnet.org". I just > thought about the possibility of a FreeBSD team, too. There is already a team with many FreeBSD boxes, rsacrack@vex.net (see . It is not a FreeBSD-only group but there are many of us here. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #20: Fri Jun 13 00:16:13 CEST 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 6 22:53:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA26409 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 22:53:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA26402 for ; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 22:53:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id HAA04831 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 07:53:13 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA15094; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 07:50:48 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970707075048.MZ63621@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 07:50:48 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I will sue FreeBSD project (..attempt at a joke..) References: <19970706184711.RL39115@uriah.heep.sax.de> <199707070117.VAA05470@mescaline.gnu.ai.mit.edu> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199707070117.VAA05470@mescaline.gnu.ai.mit.edu>; from Joel N. Weber II on Jul 6, 1997 21:17:49 -0400 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Joel N. Weber II wrote: > Actually, I recently added a disk to a NetBSD alpha, and the > thing still needs a geometry... Pah, in the end, they are also limited to 1024 ``cylinders'', eh? :-O This only means one thing: the Alphas are also PCs. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 7 00:28:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA00406 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eva.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (eva.cs.uni-magdeburg.de [141.44.21.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA00244 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:21:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pflaume.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (pflaume.cs.uni-magdeburg.de [141.44.21.44]) by eva.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.8.2/8.8.2) with SMTP id JAA16982 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:21:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by pflaume.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA13613; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:21:46 +0200 Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:21:46 +0200 From: jesse@eva.cs.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Roland Jesse) Message-Id: <199707070721.JAA13613@pflaume.cs.uni-magdeburg.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FBSD-Team for "The Bovine RC5 Cracking Effort" In-Reply-To: <19970707001733.52140@keltia.freenix.fr> References: <199707061556.RAA12719@pflaume.cs.uni-magdeburg.de> <19970707001733.52140@keltia.freenix.fr> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under Emacs 19.34.1 Reply-To: jesse@eva.cs.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Roland Jesse) X-Organization: University of Magdeburg X-Pgp-Fingerprint: 5D 08 5A E3 B4 AA 68 C1 FF 67 06 29 62 DD 9A D7 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Ollivier Robert writes: > There is already a team with many FreeBSD boxes, rsacrack@vex.net (see > . It is not a FreeBSD-only group but there are > many of us here. That wasn't my point. First: This is another challenge. Second: I think a nice name (including freebsd somewhere) would just look good when viewing at the stats page. IMHO this is only a job of creating a mail account (or alias) at @freebsd.org. Are there any good reasons for not doing so? Roland -- Why are US encryption export restrictions far too strong? >>> http://rc5.distributed.net/ <<< From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 7 05:01:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA09541 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 05:01:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shadows.aeon.net (bsdchat@shadows.aeon.net [194.100.41.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA09530 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 05:01:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bsdchat@localhost) by shadows.aeon.net (8.8.6/8.8.3) id PAA15671; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:00:35 +0300 (EET DST) From: mika ruohotie Message-Id: <199707071200.PAA15671@shadows.aeon.net> Subject: Re: FBSD-Team for "The Bovine RC5 Cracking Effort" In-Reply-To: <199707070721.JAA13613@pflaume.cs.uni-magdeburg.de> from Roland Jesse at "Jul 7, 97 09:21:46 am" To: jesse@eva.cs.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:00:35 +0300 (EET DST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > . It is not a FreeBSD-only group but there are > That wasn't my point. First: This is another challenge. Second: I nope, it's the same. > think a nice name (including freebsd somewhere) would just look good > when viewing at the stats page. IMHO this is only a job of creating a > mail account (or alias) at @freebsd.org. Are there any good reasons > for not doing so? since rc5 has been going on for some time now, new email would not appear in the stats (real ones, currently displayed are far bogus, they're updating their stats or something, maybe they cant get it right anymore...) soon enough, considering the _huge_ amount of packets it has done... (i have one of the last "real" stats saved somewhere, after that weekend they broke it) shadows% cat jun27.0604.html | sed 's/\\/\\ /' | sed 's/ right\>/right\> /g' | sed 's/size\=\-1\>/size\=\-1\> /' | awk '{ print $2,"\t ",$8,"\t",$20,"\t",$5 }' | head -24 1 975797 31714.063 linux@linuxnet.org 2 579488 18827.353 rsacrack@vex.net 3 220011 9396.223 rsa@engin.umich.edu 4 178492 9813.506 val@vorpal.net 5 170817 9742.379 frvit@informatik.uni-koblenz.de 6 168218 9902.475 pmack@rogue-ent.com 7 164039 9576.129 b106@beyond.malmo.lth.se 8 157168 5106.525 crackerz@best.net 9 154108 7910.534 warez-ops@sonn.com 10 145259 7820.508 pakrat@raleigh.ibm.com 11 140775 7603.752 jbruce@lander.edu 12 123281 7345.533 weber@espresso.ee.sun.ac.za 13 122682 4686.340 jot@bofh.com 14 115666 9347.571 rc5@hadiko.de 15 88731 5266.241 knappre@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu 16 82122 6677.327 rc5-team@engr.iupui.edu 17 78668 4314.070 brad@knuth.mtsu.edu 18 77124 3118.513 reimer@doe.carleton.ca 19 75907 3216.485 gunther@informatik.uni-rostock.de 20 74873 2417.482 beberg@acm.org 21 73275 3842.134 wprice@pgp.com 22 65012 3549.697 rc5@netcomi.com 23 61682 2833.293 dhubbard@eng.usf.edu 24 60740 2535.707 mika@aeon.net shadows% above being: position done_packets average team as you see, it'd take a long while to catch up with a new... oh, btw, that mika@aeon.net is _me_, and am willing to take "donated" cpu-cycles as well... *begging* i used to be in the 10th for a while... how many others from that list are FreeBSD people? (i'm mainly FreeBSD, and my average sux since i've gotten speed between 2000-6000 depending how many machines i've gotten running) unlike the current page reports, the keyspace is being around 8% done... > Roland mickey From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 7 06:30:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA12427 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 06:30:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shadows.aeon.net (bsdchat@shadows.aeon.net [194.100.41.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA12421 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 06:30:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bsdchat@localhost) by shadows.aeon.net (8.8.6/8.8.3) id QAA16399 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:30:22 +0300 (EET DST) From: mika ruohotie Message-Id: <199707071330.QAA16399@shadows.aeon.net> Subject: does anyone else get these? To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:30:22 +0300 (EET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk cut&paste example what i get whenever i post to the list... mickey -----====* begin *====---- Message 1/45 postmaster Jul 7, 97 07:16:23 am -0600 >From postmaster@okway.okstate.edu Mon Jul 7 15:17:10 1997 Received: from listserv.okstate.edu (listserv.okstate.edu [139.78.114.100]) by shadows.aeon.net (8.8.6/8.8.3) with ESMTP id PAA15830 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:16:41 +0300 (EET DS T) Received: from okway.okstate.edu by listserv.okstate.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v 1.1a) with SMTP id <0.A6A8AB80@listserv.okstate.edu>; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 7:16:13 -0 500 Received: from ccMail by okway.okstate.edu (ccMail Link to SMTP R8.00.00) id AA868277783; Mon, 07 Jul 97 07:17:39 -0600 Message-Id: <9707078682.AA868277783@okway.okstate.edu> X-Mailer: ccMail Link to SMTP R8.00.00 Date: Mon, 07 Jul 97 07:16:23 -0600 From: "postmaster" To: Subject: cc:Mail Link to SMTP Undeliverable Message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="simple boundary" [Part #1: Type: text/plain, Encoding: 7bit, Size: 158] [Charset US-ACSII unsupported, skipping...] [Use 'v' to view or save this part.] [Part #2: Type: text/plain, Encoding: 7bit, Size: 4515] [Charset US-ACSII unsupported, skipping...] [Use 'v' to view or save this part.] From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 7 07:01:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA13986 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 07:01:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eva.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (eva.cs.uni-magdeburg.de [141.44.21.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA13978 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 07:01:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pflaume.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (pflaume.cs.uni-magdeburg.de [141.44.21.44]) by eva.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.8.2/8.8.2) with SMTP id QAA19234 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:01:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by pflaume.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA14918; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:01:31 +0200 Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:01:31 +0200 From: jesse@eva.cs.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Roland Jesse) Message-Id: <199707071401.QAA14918@pflaume.cs.uni-magdeburg.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FBSD-Team for "The Bovine RC5 Cracking Effort" In-Reply-To: <199707071200.PAA15671@shadows.aeon.net> References: <199707070721.JAA13613@pflaume.cs.uni-magdeburg.de> <199707071200.PAA15671@shadows.aeon.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under Emacs 19.34.1 Reply-To: jesse@eva.cs.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Roland Jesse) X-Organization: University of Magdeburg X-Pgp-Fingerprint: 5D 08 5A E3 B4 AA 68 C1 FF 67 06 29 62 DD 9A D7 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk mika ruohotie writes: > since rc5 has been going on for some time now, new email would not > appear in the stats (real ones, currently displayed are far bogus, > they're updating their stats or something, maybe they cant get it > right anymore...) soon enough, considering the _huge_ amount of packets > it has done... That is right. But it would be a good time now to start with a freebsd team in general. The address (team name) can be used in the feature, too. I do not think that it would be a kind of 'bad advertisement' if we are not on the first place. Roland -- Why are US encryption export restrictions far too strong? >>> http://rc5.distributed.net/ <<< From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 7 08:26:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA18856 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 08:26:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (eivind@bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA18851 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 08:26:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) id RAA20912; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 17:25:50 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 17:25:50 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <199707071525.RAA20912@bitbox.follo.net> From: Eivind Eklund To: mika ruohotie CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: mika ruohotie's message of Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:30:22 +0300 (EET DST) Subject: Re: does anyone else get these? References: <199707071330.QAA16399@shadows.aeon.net> Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > cut&paste example what i get whenever i post to the list... > Yeah, I get them. I've tried complaining to the postmaster at that site, but that doesn't seem to help. Remove the relevant party from the mailing-list? Eivind. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 7 08:48:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA20049 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 08:48:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eva.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (eva.cs.uni-magdeburg.de [141.44.21.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA20044 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 08:48:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pflaume.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (pflaume.cs.uni-magdeburg.de [141.44.21.44]) by eva.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.8.2/8.8.2) with SMTP id RAA19758 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 17:48:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by pflaume.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA15127; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 17:48:44 +0200 Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 17:48:44 +0200 From: jesse@eva.cs.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Roland Jesse) Message-Id: <199707071548.RAA15127@pflaume.cs.uni-magdeburg.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: does anyone else get these? In-Reply-To: <199707071525.RAA20912@bitbox.follo.net> References: <199707071330.QAA16399@shadows.aeon.net> <199707071525.RAA20912@bitbox.follo.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under Emacs 19.34.1 Reply-To: jesse@eva.cs.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Roland Jesse) X-Organization: University of Magdeburg X-Pgp-Fingerprint: 5D 08 5A E3 B4 AA 68 C1 FF 67 06 29 62 DD 9A D7 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Eivind Eklund writes: > Yeah, I get them. I've tried complaining to the postmaster at that > site, but that doesn't seem to help. Remove the relevant party from > the mailing-list? I do not see them. But the reason might be my procmail configuration which checks for duplicates in my inbox: ~/.procmailrc: [...] # weed out duplicates :0 Wh: msgid.lock |formail -D 8192 msgid.cache [...] Roland -- Why are US encryption export restrictions far too strong? >>> http://rc5.distributed.net/ <<< From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 7 12:53:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA04329 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:53:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labs.usn.blaze.net.au (labs.usn.blaze.net.au [203.17.53.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA04324 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:53:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labs.usn.blaze.net.au (local [127.0.0.1]) by labs.usn.blaze.net.au (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA00408; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 05:52:55 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199707071952.FAA00408@labs.usn.blaze.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: Michael Smith cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I will sue FreeBSD project (..attempt at a joke..) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 07 Jul 1997 12:30:32 +0930." <199707070300.MAA27411@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> X-Face: (W@z~5kg?"+5?!2kHP)+l369.~a@oTl^8l87|/s8"EH?Uk~P#N+Ec~Z&@;'LL!;3?y Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 05:52:54 +1000 From: David Nugent Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > theory, I found you were right - only I couldn't stop the kernel > > complaining about the lack of an fdisk magic number even though I > > had disklabel'ed and newfs'ed, so I ended up having to use fdisk > > just to shut it up. :-) Perhaps I missed some step somewhere. > > Yeah, put a bootsector on the disk; I use : > > disklabel -rwB sd0 auto > > for preparing Jaz disks. I could have sworn I did that, or the equivalent, but I'll give it a try next time I run into the problem. The way we've been adding disk space to the network on which the ISP runs, that'll probably be in the next few days anyway. :) Regards, David -- David Nugent - Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia Voice +61-3-9791-9547 Data/BBS +61-3-9792-3507 3:632/348@fidonet davidn@freebsd.org davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn/ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 7 13:18:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA05540 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:18:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hwcn.org (main.hwcn.org [199.212.94.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA05529 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:18:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hwcn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA21924; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:18:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id QAA29896; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:18:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:18:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: ac199@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca Reply-To: hoek@hwcn.org To: mika ruohotie cc: jesse@eva.cs.Uni-Magdeburg.DE, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FBSD-Team for "The Bovine RC5 Cracking Effort" In-Reply-To: <199707071200.PAA15671@shadows.aeon.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, mika ruohotie wrote: > as you see, it'd take a long while to catch up with a new... And, of course, if supposed FreeBSD team doesn't come reasonably close to linux@linuxnet.org, that turns into a bit of negative advertising... "Sometimes the only way to win is not to play at all" :-) -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 7 13:20:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA05703 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:20:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ingenieria ([168.176.15.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA05621 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:19:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co by ingenieria (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA10834; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:06:20 -0400 Message-ID: <33C16A12.57DA@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 15:16:07 -0700 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: does anyone else get these? References: <199707071330.QAA16399@shadows.aeon.net> <199707071525.RAA20912@bitbox.follo.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk FWIW, I also get them everytime I post to this list. Pedro. Eivind Eklund wrote: > > > > > cut&paste example what i get whenever i post to the list... > > > > Yeah, I get them. I've tried complaining to the postmaster at that > site, but that doesn't seem to help. Remove the relevant party from > the mailing-list? > > Eivind. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 8 05:18:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA14097 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 05:18:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shadows.aeon.net (bsdchat@shadows.aeon.net [194.100.41.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA14091 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 05:18:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bsdchat@localhost) by shadows.aeon.net (8.8.6/8.8.3) id PAA27498; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 15:17:14 +0300 (EET DST) From: mika ruohotie Message-Id: <199707081217.PAA27498@shadows.aeon.net> Subject: Re: FBSD-Team for "The Bovine RC5 Cracking Effort" In-Reply-To: <199707071401.QAA14918@pflaume.cs.uni-magdeburg.de> from Roland Jesse at "Jul 7, 97 04:01:31 pm" To: jesse@eva.cs.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 15:17:14 +0300 (EET DST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > mika ruohotie writes: > > since rc5 has been going on for some time now, new email would not > That is right. But it would be a good time now to start with a freebsd > team in general. The address (team name) can be used in the feature, > too. I do not think that it would be a kind of 'bad advertisement' if > we are not on the first place. well, i admit idea is good. but you should first convice us already running in the top 30 on the stats to leave that "well" doing team name... i would bet hardly any of us would abandon those team names now... i know i'm vain enough not to... :p mika@aeon.net -team rules. > Roland mickey From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 8 10:46:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA28438 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 10:46:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from train.tgci.com (train.tgci.com [205.185.169.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA28432 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 10:46:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emilyd ([206.250.85.68]) by train.tgci.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA12111 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 10:53:29 -0700 Message-Id: <199707081753.KAA12111@train.tgci.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Riley J. McIntire" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 10:46:29 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: FBSD-Team for "The Bovine RC5 Cracking Effort" Reply-to: chaos@tgci.com Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42a) Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk FreeBSD needs the PR, imho...I just started running the client and would be glad to switch to a fbsd team. One other thing, only the proportion of the key space from this time forword determines the probability of a team win (finding the key). So the longer the team waits to start, the more probable a win *if* the contest hasn't ended... So even if team fbsd doesn't get an overall performance award, depending on the number of machines on the team there's a equitable chance of a win. If we move! That's not rigorous analysis, but I think it holds water...:) My $ 0.02, Riley > From: mika ruohotie > Subject: Re: FBSD-Team for "The Bovine RC5 Cracking Effort" > To: jesse@eva.cs.Uni-Magdeburg.DE > Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 15:17:14 +0300 (EET DST) > Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > > mika ruohotie writes: > > > since rc5 has been going on for some time now, new email would not > > That is right. But it would be a good time now to start with a freebsd > > team in general. The address (team name) can be used in the feature, > > too. I do not think that it would be a kind of 'bad advertisement' if > > we are not on the first place. > > well, i admit idea is good. > > but you should first convice us already running in the top 30 on the stats > to leave that "well" doing team name... > > i would bet hardly any of us would abandon those team names now... > > i know i'm vain enough not to... :p > > mika@aeon.net -team rules. > > > Roland > > > mickey > > From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 8 13:51:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA07974 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:51:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cais.cais.com (root@cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA07968 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:51:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.mat.net (root@earth.mat.net [205.252.122.1]) by cais.cais.com (8.8.5/CJKv1.99-CAIS) with SMTP id QAA12507 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 16:51:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Journey2.mat.net (journey2.mat.net [205.252.122.116]) by earth.mat.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA04707 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 16:51:45 -0400 Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 16:51:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@Journey2.mat.net To: FreeBSD-chat@Freebsd.org Subject: (Funny) If Klingons developed code (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@Freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Too good to pass up! Enjoy this ... ================= Top 10 things likely to be overheard if you had a Klingon on your software development team: 10) "This code is a piece of crap! You have no honor!" 9) "A TRUE Klingon warrior does not comment his code!" 8) "By filing this bug you have questioned my family honor. Prepare to die!" 7) "You question the worthiness of my Code?! I should kill you where you stand!" 6) "Our competitors are without honor!" 5) "Specs are for the weak and timid!" 4) "This machine is a piece of GAGH! I need dual Pentium processors if I am to do battle with this code!" 3) "Perhaps it IS a good day to Die! I say we ship it!" 2) "My program has just dumped Stova Core!" 1) "Behold, the keyboard of Kalis! The greatest Klingon code warrior that ever lived!" ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 8 22:50:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA29074 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:50:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from r33h141.res.gatech.edu (r33h141.res.gatech.edu [128.61.33.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA29069 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:50:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jason@localhost) by r33h141.res.gatech.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3) id BAA06801; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 01:50:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970709015046.62102@res.gatech.edu> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 01:50:46 -0400 From: Jason Bennett To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: rc5 info Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Speaking of all this rc5 stuff, I'm getting a crappy key rate. Cyrix 6x86-P166+, FreeBSD 3.0 current, getting 105Kkey/sec only. Any ideas what would cause this? It's getting 85% of the CPU. jason -- Jason Bennett, jbennett@cc.gatech.edu | Member, Team OS/2! CS Major, Georgia Institute of Technology | Head TA, CS 1501! Believer in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord | BSU VP Emeratus http://bsu.gt.ed.net/~jason/ | finger for PGP key! From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 9 06:34:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA14703 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 06:34:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dumbwinter (mod2.logic.it [195.120.151.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA14697 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 06:33:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by dumbwinter (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0wlwk5-00005CC; Wed, 9 Jul 97 15:25 MET DST Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 15:25:12 +0200 (MET DST) From: Marco Molteni X-Sender: molter@dumbwinter.ecomotor.it To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: what is a fair wage for a system administrator? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Howdy all! My ISP, which is running 2 NT boxes (Unix knowledge == 0), asked me to install and run a FreeBSD box, to be used as a "multi-host web server" (is it english? ;-) I'll be the system administrator, not the author of the web pages. I think I have an adeguate knowledge regarding Unix and tcp/ip networking to do such a job, altought I have been connected to the internet only via ppp (I mean I have never run a box connected 24h a day). My questions are: 1. since I've already a part-time work and I'm studying, I don't want to assign many hours for this new work. Are ten hours/month enough to cater to such a web server? (please try to limit flames ;-) 2. any suggestion/examples for a fair wage? Marco Molteni Computer Science student at the Universita' di Milano, Italy. "The time has come", the Walrus said, "to talk of many things". From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 9 07:57:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA18276 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 07:57:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from radford.i-plus.net (root@Radford.i-Plus.net [206.99.237.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA18269 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 07:57:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from abyss.i-Plus.net (stderr@SandCastle.i-Plus.net [206.99.237.44]) by radford.i-plus.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA21717; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:56:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199707091456.KAA21717@radford.i-plus.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.0544.0 From: "Troy Settle" To: , "Marco Molteni" Subject: Re: what is a fair wage for a system administrator? Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 11:00:39 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE Engine V4.71.0544.0 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This is a touchy situation for me. I also serve as a sysadmin on a part time basis, and somehow got myself stuck with a very inadequate salary. Basically, my best suggestion to you, is to evaluate what your time and skills are worth and ask for a salary that adequately compensates you. For some, $10/hour would be fine. Others may feel that they want as much as $40/hour or more. Good luck figuring it out, Troy Settle Network Administrator, iPlus Internet Services http://www.i-Plus.net ---- From: Marco Molteni To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wednesday, July 09, 1997 9:46 AM Subject: what is a fair wage for a system administrator? >Howdy all! > >My ISP, which is running 2 NT boxes (Unix knowledge == 0), asked me to >install and run a FreeBSD box, to be used as a "multi-host web server" >(is it english? ;-) >I'll be the system administrator, not the author of the web pages. > >I think I have an adeguate knowledge regarding Unix and tcp/ip >networking to do such a job, altought I have been connected to the >internet only via ppp (I mean I have never run a box connected 24h a day). > >My questions are: >1. since I've already a part-time work and I'm studying, I don't want to >assign many hours for this new work. Are ten hours/month enough to cater >to such a web server? (please try to limit flames ;-) > >2. any suggestion/examples for a fair wage? > > >Marco Molteni >Computer Science student at the Universita' di Milano, Italy. >"The time has come", the Walrus said, "to talk of many things". > > From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 9 09:05:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA21476 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 09:05:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA21465; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 09:05:26 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199707091605.JAA21465@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: what is a fair wage for a system administrator? To: rewt@i-Plus.net (Troy Settle) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 09:05:25 -0700 (PDT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org, molter@logic.it In-Reply-To: <199707091456.KAA21717@radford.i-plus.net> from "Troy Settle" at Jul 9, 97 11:00:39 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk usenix posts a job salary servey on its website every year (somewhere you may need to be a member to access this data) data comes from usenix members sometimes the only way to get adequate compensations is to change jobs this is especially true if you are not good at blowing your own horn jmb Troy Settle wrote: > > This is a touchy situation for me. I also serve as a sysadmin on a part > time basis, and somehow got myself stuck with a very inadequate salary. > > Basically, my best suggestion to you, is to evaluate what your time and > skills are worth and ask for a salary that adequately compensates you. For > some, $10/hour would be fine. Others may feel that they want as much as > $40/hour or more. > > Good luck figuring it out, > > Troy Settle > Network Administrator, iPlus Internet Services > http://www.i-Plus.net > > > ---- > From: Marco Molteni > To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Date: Wednesday, July 09, 1997 9:46 AM > Subject: what is a fair wage for a system administrator? > > >Howdy all! > > > >My ISP, which is running 2 NT boxes (Unix knowledge == 0), asked me to > >install and run a FreeBSD box, to be used as a "multi-host web server" > >(is it english? ;-) > >I'll be the system administrator, not the author of the web pages. > > > >I think I have an adeguate knowledge regarding Unix and tcp/ip > >networking to do such a job, altought I have been connected to the > >internet only via ppp (I mean I have never run a box connected 24h a > day). > > > >My questions are: > >1. since I've already a part-time work and I'm studying, I don't want to > >assign many hours for this new work. Are ten hours/month enough to cater > >to such a web server? (please try to limit flames ;-) > > > >2. any suggestion/examples for a fair wage? > > > > > >Marco Molteni > >Computer Science student at the Universita' di Milano, Italy. > >"The time has come", the Walrus said, "to talk of many things". > > > > > > > From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 9 10:19:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA25645 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:19:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA25639 for chat; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:19:38 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199707091719.KAA25639@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: spam To: chat Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:19:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk some of you may have receive this spam message >From danj@ruff.net Tue Jul 8 22:43:03 1997 Received: from internet.ruff.com (internet.ruff.com [209.41.88.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA28909 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:43:02 -0700 (PDT) From: danj@ruff.net Received: from ruff.net (dialup12.ruff.com [209.41.88.234]) by internet.ruff.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA25339; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 00:35:05 -0500 Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 00:35:05 -0500 To: danj@ruff.net Subject: $5,000 Major Credit Card-Offshore-No Credit Check Reply-to: danj@ruff.net Comments: Authenticated sender is Received: from ruff.net (ruff.net [000.000.000.000]) by ruff.net (0.0.0./0.0.0.) with SMTP id AAA000000 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 0:37:49 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: 0000000000.AAA000@ruff.net X-UIDL: 25826933169976324632371938674312 Status: OR A lot of others talk about it! THEY DID IT! $5000.00 Major International Credit Card GUARANTEED UNSECURED! Regardless of Credit History Even Bankruptcy! note this did not come thru the freebsd mailing lists the lists may have been harvested. they are running sendmail 8.6.12 and linux 1.3.77 jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 9 11:08:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA28330 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 11:08:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cliffy.statsci.com (root@cliffy.statsci.com [206.63.206.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA28324; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 11:08:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from knife.statsci.com (knife [206.63.206.137]) by cliffy.statsci.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/Hub) with ESMTP id LAA14034; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 11:08:44 -0700 Received: from knife.statsci.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by knife.statsci.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/Client) with ESMTP id LAA01451; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 11:08:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707091808.LAA01451@knife.statsci.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: chat@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: spam References: <199707091719.KAA25639@hub.freebsd.org> In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 09 Jul 1997 10:19:37 -0700." <199707091719.KAA25639@hub.freebsd.org> From: Scott Blachowicz Reply-to: scott@statsci.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 11:08:42 -0700 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk That brings up a question I had...does anyone know what generates this email header: > X-UIDL: 25826933169976324632371938674312 Seems that I've seen it in a lot of spam email, but not much otherwise. Scott Blachowicz Ph: 206/283-8802x240 Mathsoft (Data Analysis Products Div) 1700 Westlake Ave N #500 scott@statsci.com Seattle, WA USA 98109 Scott.Blachowicz@seaslug.org From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 9 11:38:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA00210 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 11:38:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA00196 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 11:38:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id VAA16051 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 21:38:41 +0300 (EEST) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 21:38:40 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi cc: chat@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: spam In-Reply-To: <199707091719.KAA25639@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > some of you may have receive this spam message > > >From danj@ruff.net Tue Jul 8 22:43:03 1997 > Received: from internet.ruff.com (internet.ruff.com [209.41.88.194]) > by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA28909 > for ; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:43:02 -0700 (PDT) > From: danj@ruff.net > Received: from ruff.net (dialup12.ruff.com [209.41.88.234]) by internet.ruff.com > (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA25339; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 00:35:05 -0500 > Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 00:35:05 -0500 > To: danj@ruff.net > Subject: $5,000 Major Credit Card-Offshore-No Credit Check > Reply-to: danj@ruff.net > Comments: Authenticated sender is > Received: from ruff.net (ruff.net [000.000.000.000]) by ruff.net (0.0.0./0.0.0.) > with SMTP id AAA000000 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 0:37:49 -0500 (EST) > Message-Id: 0000000000.AAA000@ruff.net > X-UIDL: 25826933169976324632371938674312 > Status: OR > > A lot of others talk about it! > THEY DID IT! > > $5000.00 > Major International Credit Card > > GUARANTEED UNSECURED! > Regardless of Credit History > Even Bankruptcy! > > > note this did not come thru the freebsd mailing lists > the lists may have been harvested. > they are running sendmail 8.6.12 and linux 1.3.77 > That is - breaking their computer should be fairly easy? Isn't 1.3.77 remote killallble by ping? And 8.6.* sendmail isn't too new either.... Heh. Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. > jmb > From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 9 11:41:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA00472 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 11:41:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (qmailr@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu [129.101.191.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA00466 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 11:41:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 8022 invoked by uid 666); 9 Jul 1997 18:41:19 -0000 Message-ID: <19970709114119.18001@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 11:41:19 -0700 From: faried nawaz To: chat@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: spam References: <199707091719.KAA25639@hub.freebsd.org> <199707091808.LAA01451@knife.statsci.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76e In-Reply-To: <199707091808.LAA01451@knife.statsci.com>; from Scott Blachowicz on Wed, Jul 09, 1997 at 11:08:42AM -0700 Organization: dis. X-Yow: Once, there was NO fun... This was before MENU planning, Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Scott Blachowicz writes in <199707091808.LAA01451@knife.statsci.com>: That brings up a question I had...does anyone know what generates this email header: > X-UIDL: 25826933169976324632371938674312 Seems that I've seen it in a lot of spam email, but not much otherwise. POP servers generate that when you grab mail. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 9 12:33:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA03039 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 12:33:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cliffy.statsci.com (root@cliffy.statsci.com [206.63.206.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA03029 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 12:33:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from knife.statsci.com (knife [206.63.206.137]) by cliffy.statsci.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/Hub) with ESMTP id MAA15802; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 12:33:23 -0700 Received: from knife.statsci.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by knife.statsci.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/Client) with ESMTP id MAA03750; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 12:33:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707091933.MAA03750@knife.statsci.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: faried nawaz cc: chat@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: spam References: <199707091719.KAA25639@hub.freebsd.org> <199707091808.LAA01451@knife.statsci.com> <19970709114119.18001@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu> In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 09 Jul 1997 11:41:19 -0700." <19970709114119.18001@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu> From: Scott Blachowicz Reply-to: scott@statsci.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 12:33:21 -0700 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > X-UIDL: 25826933169976324632371938674312 > > POP servers generate that when you grab mail. If it's generated by the server when the mail is grabbed, then _I_ shouldn't generally receive email with that header in it, right? (I'm not getting my email via POP). Scott Blachowicz Ph: 206/283-8802x240 Mathsoft (Data Analysis Products Div) 1700 Westlake Ave N #500 scott@statsci.com Seattle, WA USA 98109 Scott.Blachowicz@seaslug.org From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 9 14:32:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA13024 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 14:32:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13013 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 14:32:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id XAA02312 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 23:32:17 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.6.12) with UUCP id XAA08184 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 23:31:48 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.6/keltia-uucp-2.9) id XAA18984; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 23:30:03 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970709233002.56854@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 23:30:02 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: rc5 info References: <19970709015046.62102@res.gatech.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 In-Reply-To: <19970709015046.62102@res.gatech.edu>; from Jason Bennett on Wed, Jul 09, 1997 at 01:50:46AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#3392 AMD-K6 MMX @ 208 MHz Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Jason Bennett: > Speaking of all this rc5 stuff, I'm getting a crappy key rate. Cyrix > 6x86-P166+, FreeBSD 3.0 current, getting 105Kkey/sec only. Try getting the new v2 clients (rc5.distributed.net), they're very good. The P6-optimized client is great, I went from 329k keys/s up to 429k keys/s... -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #20: Fri Jun 13 00:16:13 CEST 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 9 14:53:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA14149 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 14:53:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from python.shoal.net.au (andrew@python.shoal.net.au [203.26.44.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA14142 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 14:53:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (andrew@localhost) by python.shoal.net.au (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA01660; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 07:52:37 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 07:52:37 +1000 (EST) From: Andrew Perry To: Marco Molteni cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: what is a fair wage for a system administrator? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I think that 10 hours per month is a little unrealistic. I help out my brother-in-law who is an ISP and I spend more like 10 hours per week (at least) and I'm not the only one working for him. Especially as there's a lot of stuff I don't know yet and am working out as we go :-) I think that there would be figure somewhere between 10 hours per month and 10 hours per week depending on the specific requirements of the server. Hope this is of some use to you :-) Andrew Perry andrew@shoal.net.au On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Marco Molteni wrote: > Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 15:25:12 +0200 (MET DST) > From: Marco Molteni > To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: what is a fair wage for a system administrator? > > Howdy all! > > My ISP, which is running 2 NT boxes (Unix knowledge == 0), asked me to > install and run a FreeBSD box, to be used as a "multi-host web server" > (is it english? ;-) > I'll be the system administrator, not the author of the web pages. > > I think I have an adeguate knowledge regarding Unix and tcp/ip > networking to do such a job, altought I have been connected to the > internet only via ppp (I mean I have never run a box connected 24h a day). > > My questions are: > 1. since I've already a part-time work and I'm studying, I don't want to > assign many hours for this new work. Are ten hours/month enough to cater > to such a web server? (please try to limit flames ;-) > > 2. any suggestion/examples for a fair wage? > > > Marco Molteni > Computer Science student at the Universita' di Milano, Italy. > "The time has come", the Walrus said, "to talk of many things". > > From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 9 15:44:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA17172 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 15:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nemeton.com.au (gw.nemeton.com.au [203.8.3.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA17157 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 15:44:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 23323 invoked from network); 9 Jul 1997 22:44:36 -0000 Received: from topaz.nemeton.com.au (203.8.3.18) by nemeton.com.au with SMTP; 9 Jul 1997 22:44:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 5039 invoked from network); 9 Jul 1997 22:46:16 -0000 Received: from localhost.nemeton.com.au (127.0.0.1) by localhost.nemeton.com.au with SMTP; 9 Jul 1997 22:46:16 -0000 To: scott@statsci.com cc: faried nawaz , chat@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: spam In-reply-to: <199707091933.MAA03750@knife.statsci.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 08:46:11 +1000 Message-ID: <5037.868488371@nemeton.com.au> From: Giles Lean Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 09 Jul 1997 12:33:21 -0700 Scott Blachowicz wrote: > > > X-UIDL: 25826933169976324632371938674312 > > > > POP servers generate that when you grab mail. > > If it's generated by the server when the mail is grabbed, then _I_ shouldn't > generally receive email with that header in it, right? (I'm not getting my > email via POP). Correct. I have found it a useful heuristic for spam filtering. Giles From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 9 16:50:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA20285 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 16:50:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA20277; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 16:50:08 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199707092350.QAA20277@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: spam To: narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee (Narvi) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 16:50:08 -0700 (PDT) Cc: chat@hub.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Narvi" at Jul 9, 97 09:38:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Narvi wrote: > > > That is - breaking their computer should be fairly easy? > > Isn't 1.3.77 remote killallble by ping? And 8.6.* sendmail isn't too new > either.... > > Heh. i couldn't possibly comment. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 9 16:58:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA20722 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 16:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gateway.ormond.unimelb.edu.au (gateway.ormond.unimelb.edu.au [203.17.189.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA20709 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 16:58:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from gavin@localhost) by gateway.ormond.unimelb.edu.au (8.8.3/8.6.9) id JAA29130 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 09:58:40 +1000 (EST) From: Gavin Cameron Message-Id: <199707092358.JAA29130@gateway.ormond.unimelb.edu.au> Subject: Hylafax and FBSD2.2.2 To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 09:58:40 +1000 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi all, I'm having heaps of trouble trying to get Hylafax running on my 2.2.2 box. I'm only playing with receiving faxes at the moment and am getting heaps of bad lines, missing eol messages, etc. BUT, sometimes it works!!! If someone out there in chat-land has a working config for hylafax 4.0pl1 could they send it to me so I can try to work out what I'm doing wrong. I would especially appreciate if some aussies could send me their config files. Thanks in advance, Gavin -- []------------------------------------+-------------------------------------[] | Gavin Cameron | Ormond College | | Ph : +61 3 9344 1201 | The University of Melbourne | | Fax : +61 3 9344 1111 | Parkville, Victoria | | Email : gavin@ormond.unimelb.edu.au | Australia, 3052 | []------------------------------------+-------------------------------------[] From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 9 17:59:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA26403 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 17:59:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA26396 for chat; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 17:59:53 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199707100059.RAA26396@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: 20,000+ subscribers to FreeBSD mailinglists To: chat Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 17:59:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ****************************** * List Sizes * ****************************** 20259 total 5734 freebsd-announce 1157 freebsd-security 911 freebsd-hackers 836 freebsd-isp 758 freebsd-current 750 freebsd-questions 718 freebsd-stable 625 freebsd-hardware 608 aic7xxx 563 freebsd-security-notifications 472 freebsd-bugs 432 freebsd-smp 416 freebsd-scsi 397 freebsd-fs 366 freebsd-ports 359 freebsd-multimedia 347 freebsd-chat 328 freebsd-emulation 326 freebsd-install 286 freebsd-platforms # date Wed Jul 9 17:40:22 PDT 1997 # mailstats Statistics from Sat Jul 5 03:39:50 1997 M msgsfr bytes_from msgsto bytes_to Mailer 0 0 0K 5068 10270K prog 1 0 0K 3362 8520K *file* 3 23417 64536K 9862 30410K local 6 5872 22442K 88667 195131K smtp8 ======================================== T 29289 86978K 106959 244331K 122167 addressees since 2:00 am 14969 individual messages since 2:00 am 8.16 average number of addressees per message sent since 2:00 am jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 9 18:18:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA27080 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 18:18:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hwcn.org (main.hwcn.org [199.212.94.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA27067; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 18:17:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hwcn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA22959; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 21:18:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA11082; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 21:18:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 21:18:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: ac199@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca Reply-To: hoek@hwcn.org To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: chat@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: 20,000+ subscribers to FreeBSD mailinglists In-Reply-To: <199707100059.RAA26396@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > ****************************** > * List Sizes * > ****************************** > > 20259 total Does this take into account that some people are subscribed to >1 list? > 472 freebsd-bugs Hm. I think that should be higher. [ie. more people should subscribe :-] -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 10 07:58:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA06005 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 07:58:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA05996 for chat; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 07:58:19 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199707101458.HAA05996@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: X-UIDL headers To: chat Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 07:58:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk anyone able to give mye nay info about the "X-UIDL:" header? i started looking for the "X-UIDL" header in mail it seems to useful in stopping spam jmb >From owner-hackers Thu Jul 10 00:18:40 1997 Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA11939 for owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 00:18:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 00:18:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707100718.AAA11939@hub.freebsd.org> To: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: BOUNCE hackers@FreeBSD.ORG: X-UIDL... >From owner-majordomo Thu Jul 10 00:18:35 1997 Received: from uumx.smtp.psi.net (uumx.smtp.psi.net [38.9.4.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA11929 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 00:18:34 -0700 (PDT) From: 67467886@aol.com Received: from uumx.smtp.psi.net by uumx.smtp.psi.net (8.6.12/SMI-4.1.3-PSI) id CAA03805; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 02:34:25 -0400 Received: from aol.com by QWD (8.8.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id GAA08644 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 01:33:06 -0600 (EST) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 97 01:33:06 EST To: poASXstmaster@AOL..COM Subject: Free Pa$$word for 1200 $ex $ites Message-ID: Reply-To: no4333--@aol.com X-PMFLAGS: 340788480 X-UIDL: 3671313288965eb1890m0762139 Comments: Authenticated sender is 

http://www.ourlocation.com/freesex


From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Jul 10 15:49:21 1997
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Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 17:44:43 -0700
From: Pedro Giffuni 
Reply-To: m230761@ingenieria.ingsala.unal.edu.co
Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia
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Subject: New BSD-lites?
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I had no idea Utah took over the BSD-lites code and has been working on
a new version:
	
http://www.cs.utah.edu/projects/flux/lites/html/lites-1.1.u3.html

has anyone tested this, and wants to share some crashes :-) ?

	Pedro.

From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Jul 10 20:47:14 1997
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Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 23:51:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jeff Roberts 
To: chat@freebsd.org
Subject: My opinion about freebsd (fwd)
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Hi, everyone.   This is posted for/at the request of Jonah Kuo.  I think
he'd like to hear some opinions regarding the usability factor, especially
in the future.  Please reply to him, jonahkuo@mail.ttn.com.tw , not me!
=)

Take care,

Jeff 


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 19:07:06 +0800
From: Jonah Kuo 
To: jroberts@ashland.edu
Subject: My opinion about freebsd



I'm talking about freebsd in my
opinion and it's really ONLY my opinion. Over the past half a year, I've
liked and loved freebsd, it is so great, so wonderful and of course so
powerful. As I mentioned, I'm a user of freebsd, I'm not a hacker, not
even a programmer, but I can use freebsd happily, so I appreciate the
many people out there who created it, who have helped other people, you
and
they are great and to be expected, thank you very much!

        A week ago, in the FAQ, I found I can use freebsd + squid +
FWTK and a dial-up line to make an office to communicate with the
internet.***Don't have to buy an expensive router, don't have to apply
for an
expensive leased line, this kind of collection can save people a lot of
money, and reduce the bandwidth wasting, also it can decrease the
depletion of IP addresses by using the private subnetworks*** (though
I've not set it up
yet :-P), It is a terrific and efficient function that other operaing
systems don't provide, UNLESS you pay a lot of money  buying this OS +
A package + B package....

        So, I'm planning to set it up. I fetched the Squid, followed the
instructions in the README and INSTALL, I compiled it successfully but I
don't know what the squid.conf is talking about :-(, due to my lack of
understanding of protocols, ports or etc. O.K. ignoring that problem,
I fetched the FWTK, followed the instructions in README and INSTALL, I
make...., I encountered a problem during compile time..., Oh, no, I
can't hack. :-(, I told myself: "Don't  worry, I've subscribed to the
fwtk's users list, I can ask somebody out there", though I've not get
any reply yet. :-(
        Since I can't figure this problem out, I have questions about
freebsd. Is it only a hacker's workbench? Can only the unix gurus can
play
freebsd well? Does every freebsd user have to learn C language? Is the
threshold too high to common freebsd user? We all have to admit,
basically, if one wants to join the freebsd community, he(or her) must
know what the irq, io port, primary, seconary, jumpers are...and so on.
Yes, this is simple, there
are many easy to understand hardware-related books in the bookstore, but
do you think the protocols, communication ports, routing, proxy,
firewalls are easy to understand? Obviously not!

        Between freebsd and commercial OSs, from the common user's
view point, the question is, "To pay or not to pay?"--pay in time or in
money. We all hope the number of freebsd users will increase, and also
hope
they can enjoy what we are enjoying, and hope the commercial software
vendors can treat users more fairly. I really don't want to see the
following happen:

        "FreeBSD, turning your PC into workstation, hackers only" or
        "FreeBSD, turning your PC into workstation, unix gurus only"

        I'm not complaining that freebsd is too difficult to learn, in
fact, I like and love it. I'm happy we all finally have a chance to say
NO to
commercial software whose prices are too expensive, and again, I deeply
appreciate the people who constructed freebsd and who have helped
others. I just think can we take more care of the silent group and let
more
people enjoy the effort that you have made.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jonah


From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Jul 10 21:31:53 1997
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Message-ID: <19970711014750.46737@keltia.freenix.fr>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 01:47:50 +0200
From: Ollivier Robert 
To: chat@hub.freebsd.org
Subject: Re: X-UIDL headers
References: <199707101458.HAA05996@hub.freebsd.org>
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According to Jonathan M. Bresler:
> anyone able to give mye nay info about the "X-UIDL:" header?

It seems to be generated by many POP and/or IMAP servers. I'd say junk any
mail with it. I've yet to see a non-spam message with it.

-- 
Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr
FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #20: Fri Jun 13 00:16:13 CEST 1997

From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Jul 10 21:51:37 1997
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To: Ollivier Robert 
cc: chat@hub.freebsd.org
From: "Gary Palmer" 
Subject: Re: X-UIDL headers 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 11 Jul 1997 01:47:50 +0200."
             <19970711014750.46737@keltia.freenix.fr> 
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 00:51:24 -0400
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Ollivier Robert wrote in message ID
<19970711014750.46737@keltia.freenix.fr>:
> According to Jonathan M. Bresler:
> > anyone able to give mye nay info about the "X-UIDL:" header?
> 
> It seems to be generated by many POP and/or IMAP servers. I'd say junk any
> mail with it. I've yet to see a non-spam message with it.

If I redist a mail read from a pop server (e.g. using MH), then its
going to have that header, and be a valid message...

Gary
--
Gary Palmer                                          FreeBSD Core Team Member
FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info

From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Jul 11 02:43:40 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 10:54:59 +0200
From: Andreas Klemm 
To: Chuck Robey 
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On Tue, Jul 08, 1997 at 04:51:46PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote:
> 
> 3)  "Perhaps it IS a good day to Die!  I say we ship it!"

This one is an extremely good one, I like it very much ;-))


-- 
Andreas Klemm | klemm.gtn.com - powered by
                    Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD
                       http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/SMP.html
                          http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/benches.html

From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Jul 11 03:21:29 1997
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From: "Mikhail A. Sokolov" 
To: Ollivier Robert 
Cc: chat@freebsd.org
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On Fri, Jul 11, 1997 at 01:47:50AM +0200, Ollivier Robert wrote:
> According to Jonathan M. Bresler:
> > anyone able to give mye nay info about the "X-UIDL:" header?
> 
> It seems to be generated by many POP and/or IMAP servers. I'd say junk any
> mail with it. I've yet to see a non-spam message with it.

I fgreped our quite big spool, - it is quite usual for clients with windows
mailers to have this X-UIDL header attached to their mails. Correct, pop/imap
servers add this, and yes, they can be recompiled not to do this. 

Unfortunately, it's quite hard to dig out the nessecity of this header, but 
still, I doubt if it's correct to trash such mails, - you risk to loose half
of your windows-based folk's mails. I tryed to correlate fgrep 'X-UIDL' results
with the 'X-Mailer' fgrep results - it's the only what fits - almost 90% of
mails issued on _any_ type of windows have those X-UIDL. Still, I am stuck with
the following now, the scheme of mails passing: 
 -  -  <-- NO pop or imap servers
here, and still those mails have X-UIDL.

> Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr

-mishania

From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Jul 11 08:11:28 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 17:09:50 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Marco Molteni 
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Well, I accepted the job, and they accepted my wage request
without turning a hair.
This could mean:

1. I have a really nice face
 OR
2. I could have asked more ;-)

Anyway, I wish to thank all the people who replied:
Troy Settle, Jonathan M. Bresler, Pedro Giffuni, Andrew Perry, Annelise
Anderson and Wes Peters.

Marco Molteni
Computer Science student at the Universita' di Milano, Italy.
"The time has come", the Walrus said, "to talk of many things".


From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Jul 11 08:16:18 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 10:13:23 -0500 (EST)
From: John Fieber 
To: Jeff Roberts 
cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: My opinion about freebsd (fwd)
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On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Jeff Roberts wrote:

> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 19:07:06 +0800
> From: Jonah Kuo 
> To: jroberts@ashland.edu
> Subject: My opinion about freebsd

[snip]

> Since I can't figure this problem out, I have questions
> about freebsd. Is it only a hacker's workbench? Can only the
> unix gurus can play freebsd well? Does every freebsd user have
> to learn C language? Is the threshold too high to common
> freebsd user? We all have to admit, basically, if one wants to
> join the freebsd community, he(or her) must know what the irq,
> io port, primary, seconary, jumpers are...and so on.

Here is one pessimistic view...

Occasional cases of altruism aside, the motivation for
contributing virtual sweat to a project such as FreeBSD is self
interest.  People who (a) find FreeBSD useful for their own
purposes, (b) are programmers/hackers to the degree that they can
(c) implement enhancements to make FreeBSD *more* useful for
their own purposes are the primairy contributers to the cause.

In usability engineering, a premire guiding principle is to make
a clear and conscious distinction between you, the developer, and
the user.  Every design decision that would be visible to the
user must be driven by a clear understanding of the users and
their tasks.  The developer's ideas of what makes sense should
only be considered when it can be shown that it also makes sense
to the target user.

To (over)generalize, FreeBSD is developed by hackers for their
own purposes. In effect, the developers the target audience. It
is still possible to separate your own, possibly
non-represntative, intuitions about good design from those
scientifically grounded in task analysis and usability testing.
In practice, I really doubt this ever happens. To the degree that
the devolper is representative of the FreeBSD users, this isn't a
catastrophe, but it is suboptimal.  There are plenty of truly
abysmal pieces of unix software that stand as a testament to
this.

Of course, it is possible that a volunteer project could produce
quality software with a high high degree usability by
non-programmers.  However, given the incentive system that drives
these volunteer software projects, I believe such cases will
always be rare exceptions, not the rule. 

-john


From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Jul 11 20:38:23 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 20:38:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Amancio Hasty 
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The video channel is 224.2.100.102/49200
The audio channel is 224.2.100.100/16400

This is an mbone broadcast from a FreeBSD box.

	Cheers,
	Amancio

From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Jul 12 00:42:23 1997
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From: "Joel N. Weber II" 
To: jdp@polstra.com
CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: <199707112313.QAA18955@austin.polstra.com> (message from John
	Polstra on Fri, 11 Jul 1997 16:13:03 -0700)
Subject: Re: CVSup mirrors and version 15.1
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   Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 16:13:03 -0700
   From: John Polstra 
   Sender: owner-hubs@FreeBSD.ORG

   * It fixes a potentially nasty security problem.  Under certain
   circumstances, it was possible for a file's setuid and/or setgid
   bits to be transferred even though the owner/group were not.  Since
   the clients often run as root, this meant that a setuid file owned
   by Joe Blow on the server host would become a setuid-to-root file on
   the client.  Not nice.  I put fixes for this into both the client
   and the server, and all the US servers are already upgraded.  So you
   are already reasonably protected.  But wouldn't you feel better
   running a client that protected you, so you wouldn't have to trust
   somebody else's server?

Maybe I'm missing something, but aren't you trusting someone else's
server whenever you get a kernel from that server?


From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Jul 12 02:08:22 1997
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	Sat, 12 Jul 1997 19:07:27 +1000 (EST)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 19:07:27 +1000 (EST)
From: Andrew Perry 
Reply-To: Andrew Perry 
To: jonahkuo@mail.ttn.com.tw
cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: My opinion about freebsd (fwd)
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> > about freebsd. Is it only a hacker's workbench? Can only the
> > unix gurus can play freebsd well? Does every freebsd user have
> > to learn C language? Is the threshold too high to common
> > freebsd user? We all have to admit, basically, if one wants to
> > join the freebsd community, he(or her) must know what the irq,
> > io port, primary, seconary, jumpers are...and so on.
Here's my view to anyone who is interested :-)

Until last year I was a died in the wool M$ supporter. Whenever we had to
install non M$ software we whinged and complained about people not
adhering to the standards etc... and we didn't know any better, the only
other operating system I've had to deal with is VMS, which is certainly a
lot more powerful than windows :-) but it is not the flavour of the
moment.

I certainly can't imagine having FreeBSD on every desk at my work, I mean,
I have had calls from people who type s p a c e instead of pressing the
space-bar, and one person who refused to identify herself (it could have
just as easily been a male) who's mouse pointer moved the wrong way, she
was holding the thing upside down.

I think of FreeBSD (and probably Linux although I haven't tried it) as
operating systems for the elite, those among us who have enough computer
something-or-other to do something different, I can't program in C
(although I've started to learn) and am certainly no "unix guru" having
only about 12-18 months experience, but I've managed to setup a few
FreeBSD boxes, including one which is used as a proxy server. 

Besides I like to side with the "underdog" and despite limited budget and
being supported so much by volunteers (or should I say because of it's
support by dedicated experts) it holds a niche in the market that few can
challenge. I mean, for a while we were restarting 3 out of 4 NT servers
_every_ morning as they would hang during the night, our proxy...
lets not start not start complaining about broken microsoft promises, I
think they're just like politicians :-)

Perseverance is the key and asking on -questions :-) Don't ask on  the
irc channel, I got kick-banned because my name was andrew and I asked some
stupid newbie questions, the only way I got back on to the channel was
because they ban so many people they have to purge the banned list to ban
new people. It wasn't worth getting back on, ask on questions, if Doug
White can't help you he can at least ask the questions which will point
you in the right direction, and there's a lot of other dedicated people on
there as well.


 > 
> Here is one pessimistic view...
> 
> Occasional cases of altruism aside, the motivation for
> contributing virtual sweat to a project such as FreeBSD is self
> interest.  People who (a) find FreeBSD useful for their own
> purposes, (b) are programmers/hackers to the degree that they can
> (c) implement enhancements to make FreeBSD *more* useful for
> their own purposes are the primairy contributers to the cause.
> 
> In usability engineering, a premire guiding principle is to make
> a clear and conscious distinction between you, the developer, and
> the user.  Every design decision that would be visible to the
> user must be driven by a clear understanding of the users and
> their tasks.  The developer's ideas of what makes sense should
> only be considered when it can be shown that it also makes sense
> to the target user.
> 
> To (over)generalize, FreeBSD is developed by hackers for their
> own purposes. In effect, the developers the target audience. It
> is still possible to separate your own, possibly
> non-represntative, intuitions about good design from those
> scientifically grounded in task analysis and usability testing.
> In practice, I really doubt this ever happens. To the degree that
> the devolper is representative of the FreeBSD users, this isn't a
> catastrophe, but it is suboptimal.  There are plenty of truly
> abysmal pieces of unix software that stand as a testament to
> this.
> 
> Of course, it is possible that a volunteer project could produce
> quality software with a high high degree usability by
> non-programmers.  However, given the incentive system that drives
> these volunteer software projects, I believe such cases will
> always be rare exceptions, not the rule. 

I believe that this is one of those rare cases, and so do you:-)


> 
> -john
> 
> 

FreeBSD - puts you in the drivers seat!

I like it, hope I haven't accidently stolen it!

sorry for waxing lyrical again :-)
Andrew Perry
andrew@shoal.net.au



From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Jul 12 08:43:25 1997
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Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 10:42:48 -0500 (EST)
From: John Fieber 
To: Andrew Perry 
cc: jonahkuo@mail.ttn.com.tw, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: My opinion about freebsd (fwd)
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On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, Andrew Perry wrote:

> > Of course, it is possible that a volunteer project could produce
> > quality software with a high high degree usability by
> > non-programmers.  However, given the incentive system that drives
> > these volunteer software projects, I believe such cases will
> > always be rare exceptions, not the rule. 
> 
> I believe that this is one of those rare cases, and so do you:-)

For dimensions of quality that don't involve usability by humans,
I would say no because such quality in software developed by
volunteers is indeed common.  Those dimensions were not what I
was thinking about when I wrote that. 

In terms of usability (as distinct from functionality), I would
say no.  Sure, there are bits here and there that are pretty
good, but a few isolated usability successes cannot change the
total usability of a system whose design has neglected
consideration of non-programmers for over two decades.

A re-engineering of unix to address usability problems, applying
all we have learned about human factors in software systems in
the last decade would probably yield a system that few old-timers
would even recognize as unix.  I speculate that such a renovation
would not come out of a volunteer software project because the
people who would benefit the most probably don't have the
programming skill to implement it and those with the skill are
basically content with unix as it is now, modulo incremental
enhancements and cool new stuff in the kernel.

-john


From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Jul 12 11:28:32 1997
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To: "Joel N. Weber II" 
cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: CVSup mirrors and version 15.1 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 12 Jul 1997 03:42:58 EDT."
             <199707120742.DAA12377@psilocin.gnu.ai.mit.edu> 
References: <199707120742.DAA12377@psilocin.gnu.ai.mit.edu> 
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 11:28:25 -0700
From: John Polstra 
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> Maybe I'm missing something, but aren't you trusting someone else's
> server whenever you get a kernel from that server?

I don't intend to get sucked into yet another incarnation of the
security religious war that at any given moment is going on in at
least 5 newsgroups somewhere (and has been since the dawn of Usenet).
So let me just answer this way, and request that I be dropped from
the cc line of all followups.

There are degrees of risk and there are degrees of trust.  There
are also problems that CVSup can solve and problems that it cannot
solve.  I choose to solve the problems that I can solve, and waste
as little time as possible discussing those which I cannot solve.
--
   John Polstra                                       jdp@polstra.com
   John D. Polstra & Co., Inc.                Seattle, Washington USA
   "Self-knowledge is always bad news."                 -- John Barth

From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Jul 12 11:29:21 1997
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Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 11:28:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Annelise Anderson 
Reply-To: Annelise Anderson 
To: jonahkuo@mail.ttn.com.tw
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Subject: Re: My opinion about freebsd (fwd)
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> Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 19:07:06 +0800
> From: Jonah Kuo 
> Subject: My opinion about freebsd

[...] 
>         Since I can't figure this problem out, I have questions about
> freebsd. Is it only a hacker's workbench? Can only the unix gurus play
> freebsd well? Does every freebsd user have to learn C language? Is the
> threshold too high to common freebsd user? 

	I've wondered about this myself.  

	I attended the San Francisco FreeBSD Users' Group the other
night and I think I was the only Real User there, the only person not
a computer professional.  

	I installed FreeBSD almost two years ago because someone told
me that with a $1500 pc, an Ethernet card, and FreeBSD, I could run
a web server.  I wanted to do that (I knew about six unix commands at
the time) not because I had anything of importance to offer the rest of
the world, but because I was curious about just how difficult it would
be, about the accessibility of this technology to an ordinary person. 

	Then I began discovering its other capabilities. 

	The implications for communications in places less free than
the United States (say, the PRC, or even some of the formerly Communist
countries where the transition to free markets and democracy is not
necessarily complete or secure) are of course extraordinary, especially
if such a system can be installed, configured, and managed by someone 
who is not a computer professional.  Especially someone who doesn't have
the advantages I have had, namely easy access to a lot of books and a 
lot of on-line help.

	I think of the dissident in the poli sci or even physics depart-
ment at some university in one of the outlying provinces in the PRC
or North Korea or even Cuba who doesn't really want to advertise that
he's trying to figure out how to conceal the origin of the mail he wants
to send or even that he's running an operating system (for which he
has the source code) that is in itself capable of being an Internet
service provider.  And I think he (or she) is going to have a difficult
time of it.

	Perhaps especially difficult when the authorities control the
infrastructure (e.g., the routers between the origin and the destination.
(I wish I knew more about this; I do know that modern censorship of the
press and communications is based heavily on control of resources--access
to newsprint and paper, for example--rather than "editing", and the
infrastructure here is the critical resource.)      

>         I'm not complaining that freebsd is too difficult to learn, in
> fact, I like and love it. 

	So do I.  And I'm not complaining either.

> I just think can we take more care of the silent group and let
> more people enjoy the effort that you have made.

	It seems it's not the usability once installed and 
configured, it's getting to that point (partly a documentation problem,
partly just the inherent complexity of the system).  

	But I notice that many of my friends who run Windows 95 can't
configure and manage their own computers (my definition of computer
literary) either; they go to someone who presumably can (someone they 
hire on a hourly basis, or computer services, or whatever) and say
something like "I want to be able to send faxes from within WordPerfect 
from a hotel room in Paris using my credit card, set it up for me."
And ISPs provide a lot of hand-holding--explicit web instructions,
"we'll_walk_you_through_it" 800 numbers--for their customers.

	I'm pretty close here to talking myself into a position about
which I'm not really enthusiastic--that to run FreeBSD you need to
acquire a good deal of the knowledge of a unix professional (including
some knowledge of C) and that my hypothetical dissident in the provinces
isn't going to make it.
	
	Annelise
	










From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Jul 12 12:08:14 1997
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The SF FreeBSD user's meeting was held last Thursday at the cool offices 
of Silicon Reef located in  3017 17th Street , San Francisco.

At the start of the meeting , I told jkh that he should have a 
FreeBSD 3.0-current snapshot . He just responded by flinging a 
FreeBSD 3.0 -current CDROM snapshot 8) Later on that night , I 
installed that version on my FreeBSD test system and was 
pleasantly surprised at how fast the bits flew from the cdrom to
my disk -- it took less than 5 minutes to drop in X and a base system
with just the binaries 8) The complete install from start to finish
took less than 30 minutes! So we can probably do a complete install
in less than 10 minutes. Is just that setting up X and a couple of
other user level packages slows me down ...

The boot from the CDROM was very, very nice 8)

My FreeBSD test machine is a P133, 32MB , with a IDE CDROM and a 2 gig ide 
disk drive so it is not a very speedy box.

One of the hot topics in the meeting was FreeBSD 3.0 vs. FreeBSD 2.XX
The reason why this is an issue at least for me is because frequently
I get ask if a  package or driver works on FreeBSD 2.X my typical
response is that I don't run FreeBSD 2.X however people have
reported that the package works or doesn't work on FreeBSD 2.x.
On my part, I don't have the resources nor the time to maintain
packages or drivers for both OS versions. When I ask people why
they don't want to upgrade to FreeBSD 3.0? The usual response
is that they are petrified to upgrade to FreeBSD 3.0 .
Typically, I respond by saying that my main box rah.star-gate.com
has been running FreeBSD 3.0-current for the last 6 months  so it can't be 
that unstable. I use my box as a web server, ftp server, telephone 
answering machine, fax machine, e-mail,  and hacking 8) Given that
I am a consultant if I need to communicate with a customer I need
my box up and running.

---

threads, C++,  Java

A fellow from Netscape stated that one of the reasons that they
didn't want to consider doing a port of FastTrack to FreeBSD is 
because the API and pthreads API was not stable. In the case
of pthreads that it was buggy. This is not the only reason
why netscape doesn't want to port to freebsd however I at least
tried to respond to the technical side of the questions.
It was a total surprise to me to find out that more than one
person in the group thought that our threads implementation
was buggy. I responded that one of my customers is using it in a 
mission critical application . jkh responded that 
John Birrell , the maintainer of the threads
package, company uses threads for embedable systems.


The other hot topic was better support for C++ and at the heart
of that issue lies the ability to support elf. The issue 
was triggered by the fellow from Netscape that at least in
his company all current development is in C++.  jkh mention
that we shouldn't move to elf just for better support of C++.
This is an interesting dilemma given that if someone wants to
develop C++ using templates they are better off going to some
other OS. One counter argument to at least deflate the
the issue of not going to elf is that some in the industry
think that the future lies in java and that some are concentrating
in the interpreter / compiler to improve java's performance.
This is fine ;however, the question in my mind is how long
do we have to wait till we see a cool java compiler of hopefully
industrial strength.

---

On the lighter side and happy side, jkh issue a strong request
to FreeBSD activist to write articles . He also will match 
$ for $ whatever a publisher pays . I think that he will
pay a minimum of $1000 and  less than $10000 . A concern was raised
that in Japan and in Germany people are writing articles about
FreeBSD and in the case of Japan someone was thinking about
starting a TV show about FreeBSD (not sure if this is true or not
it just simply to wild for me to conceive).

If memory does not fail me the last article published in the US about 
FreeBSD was in 1995.

---

jkh also handed out his first copy of FreeeBSD News which has a nice
article by David Filo, Co-founder of Yahoo!, as to why they chose
FreeBSD for their web servers. It is nice reading so if you haven't received
a copy of FreeBSD News get one ! To register:
http://www.freebsd.org/register.html

	Enjoy,
	Amancio




From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Jul 12 14:42:18 1997
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Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 23:22:16 +0200
From: Andreas Klemm 
To: Amancio Hasty 
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On Sat, Jul 12, 1997 at 12:08:14PM -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote:
> The SF FreeBSD user's meeting was held last Thursday at the cool offices 
> of Silicon Reef located in  3017 17th Street , San Francisco.

First of all, thanks Amancio for your report. It's nice to hear
what's going on ...

> A fellow from Netscape stated that one of the reasons that they
> didn't want to consider doing a port of FastTrack to FreeBSD is 
> because the API and pthreads API was not stable. In the case
> of pthreads that it was buggy. This is not the only reason
> why netscape doesn't want to port to freebsd however I at least
> tried to respond to the technical side of the questions.

Well ... perhaps they made bad experiences in the past and
think problems still exist ...

Maybe you/we should tell them, that currently the Linux version
of Navigator 4.x is running more stable than the BSDI port...

And maybe they should give -current's pthreads a new try.

> A concern was raised that in Japan and in Germany people are 
> writing articles about FreeBSD and in the case of Japan someone 
> was thinking about starting a TV show about FreeBSD (not sure if 
> this is true or not it just simply to wild for me to conceive).
> 
> If memory does not fail me the last article published in the US about 
> FreeBSD was in 1995.

Yes write articles ! You can't imagine how many people get in
contact with you after reading some Bits and Bytes about FreeBSD
in PC and Unix Magazines.

Many of us are hackers and are used to know the strength of
FreeBSD (and *BSD) over some other commercial and non commercial 
Operating Systems. But there are much more people, who don't
have that knowledge and Unix background.

Most people even can't differentiate between SysV and BSD and
don't know anything about the history of Unix ...

I got so many positive responses after writing with Lars the
*BSD article in the German PC magazine "C't" ...

So .. don't be lazy ... people are waiting for informative
articles ! And people need an alternative for so many things
like ... hmmm ... for Messy Windows an such ;-))

> jkh also handed out his first copy of FreeeBSD News which has a nice
> article by David Filo, Co-founder of Yahoo!, as to why they chose
> FreeBSD for their web servers.

I want a copy as well ;-))

	Andreas ///

-- 
Andreas Klemm | klemm.gtn.com - powered by
                    Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD
                       http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/SMP.html
                          http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/benches.html

From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Jul 12 16:56:00 1997
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Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 18:48:40 -0700
From: Pedro Giffuni 
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This whole issue reminds me how I started with FreeBSD anyway (this is
chat isn't it ? :-) )....No, I'll better not tell how I went from Pascal
expert and MS fan to C apprentice and UNIX lover.
I got to FreeBSD the long way:

M$-WIN 3.1---->VM/CMS---->Solaris---->SCO---->AIX---->FreeBSD/2.0.5

My impressions were
1) M$ will take to places you never thought you could go, but it ties
your hands in the process.
2) VM/CMS teaches important networking concepts, but..ugh it's so slow
and old.
3) Solaris a typical unix; it's cool...hey not everyone uses MS !
4) SCO sucks, Has anyone built Lynx? Hylafax? What a nightmare, ugh the
commercial compiler also sucks what is this gcc every app wants?
5) I preferred Solaris, but this was faster before I upgraded their
unsecure OS.
6) How does this run all those things I couldn't run with SCO? Why is
this so fast?

The "usability" factor is not really a problem of FreeBSD,  it's a
problem of unix; please note the problems discussed in this thread
involve third party applications. Of the above systems, FreeBSD is the
easiest to install and keep up running, and it also comes with much more
applications in the same CD. 

My experience leads me to believe free-unix users are implicitly
accepting a challenge and they end up learning anyway. I don't live
exactly in the "provinces", but I have found new users with a very low
level of computer knowledge that get familiar to FreeBSD, and AIX, even
when they don't master M$-win!
Yes, believe it or not, many users prefer a text console: it's easier to
learn two or three commands to get your mail out than to master the
"secrets" of the point and click interface. The greatest barrier is
usually the language, but when I changed the language in AIX to spanish,
two or three persons came to say there was something wrong with their
accounts (I'll use italian now, itīs more elegant) :). 

In all this I have found OSs are like religions; you just don't change
to the religion that offers more advantages now! (remember OS2, Macs?)
People use what other "elite" users use and FreeBSD depends on how many
elite users are convinced to join.

IMO, FreeBSD and the GNU systems will win over M$ on the long run:
mercenaries just can't beat organizations that don't depend on
Big-Bucks(TM) :-).

	Pedro.


Annelise Anderson wrote:

> 
>         I'm pretty close here to talking myself into a position about
> which I'm not really enthusiastic--that to run FreeBSD you need to
> acquire a good deal of the knowledge of a unix professional (including
> some knowledge of C) and that my hypothetical dissident in the provinces
> isn't going to make it.
> 
>         Annelise
>


From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Jul 12 17:15:36 1997
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>From The Desk Of Pedro Giffuni :
> IMO, FreeBSD and the GNU systems will win over M$ on the long run:
> mercenaries just can't beat organizations that don't depend on
> Big-Bucks(TM) :-).
> 

It is not clear to me that FreeBSD will be free from the 
influence of Big-Bucks(TM) :(

	Amancio



From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Jul 12 17:28:48 1997
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Amancio Hasty wrote:
> 
> It is not clear to me that FreeBSD will be free from the
> influence of Big-Bucks(TM) :(
> 
>         Amancio

Whatever we do, a supernatural power will keep a delicate balance
between M$, Linux and FreeBSD; in old days economists called this "the
invisible hand". ;)

(Before someone says GNU is a replacement for communism, remember this
is all IMHO)

	Pedro.

From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Jul 12 17:38:01 1997
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cc: jonahkuo@mail.ttn.com.tw, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: My opinion about freebsd (fwd) 
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Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 17:36:53 -0700
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> 	I attended the San Francisco FreeBSD Users' Group the other
> night and I think I was the only Real User there, the only person not
> a computer professional.  

Well, as I also pointed out during that meeting, one of the crisises
we're currently suffering from is the fact people aren't writing
enough beginning user's guides, magazine articles or books. :-)

Another concept I'd had for the newsletter was that it could become
something like our oral tradition - collect each and every copy of it
(and yes, we send the newsletter out world-wide) and you'd have a
rather complete set of tutorials on a wide variety of subjects.

However, that still doesn't work if people don't submit things
to the newsletter. ;-)

					Jordan

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On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, Annelise Anderson wrote:
>
> 	I'm pretty close here to talking myself into a position about
> which I'm not really enthusiastic--that to run FreeBSD you need to
> acquire a good deal of the knowledge of a unix professional (including
> some knowledge of C) and that my hypothetical dissident in the provinces
> isn't going to make it.

There is nothing wrong needing to know about something in order
to make it work.  Consider that in order to make even a simple
flower garden grow well, one must be able to describe, in general
terms, how and why a plant grows.  For almost any activity, one
must have a general idea of what is happening, in order to make
it work _consistently_ and _well_ (phones being the only
exception I've though of so far).

Before we judge this base amount of knowledge that one needs, let
us keep in mind that most people will be using their computers
every day for most of their life.

I think certain things, such as shell-scripting, can be expected
to be learnt.  The grade 11 general computers course at my
school, whose purpose is not to create programmers,
computer-wizards, or anything else particularly technical except
for making students who are "comfortable working with
[computers]", includes a section on Basic programming.  If the
MS world can expect people to learn Basic, then I don't think
it's unreasonable to expect people to learn some C or sh.

Now, I think it is important to distinguish between the knowledge
needed to run and maintain a computer over the long-term, and the
amount of work (and/or knowledge) needed to simply setup one's
computer and perform basic tasks.  Again, an analogy.  To
initially use a fridge, it is not necessary to know how it makes
itself cool inside.  That knowledge only becomes necessary over a
longer period of time (you may be questioning why one would need
to know it at all (a reasonable question).  Suppose your
air-conditioner broke-down.  Because of you understanding of how
your fridge works, you will be smart enough _not_ to leave the
fridge-door open and hope that cools the house instead).

I'm not so fool as to argue that these two different things
(setup difficulty and longterm working knowledge) can be
completely separated, but I would suggest they a basis for at
least _some_ differentiation. I think you were trying to address
both in your message. 

Setup should be simple.  Working knowledge should be taught; not
be eliminated. 


--
Outnumbered?  Maybe.  Outspoken?  Never!
tIM...HOEk


From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Jul 12 17:46:57 1997
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To: freebsd-sf@arachna.com
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Subject: Re: SFBAUG Notes 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 12 Jul 1997 12:08:14 PDT."
             <199707121908.MAA12381@rah.star-gate.com> 
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 17:45:54 -0700
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" 
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Thanks for the summary, Amancio!  I'm sure that those who didn't get
to attend the meeting appreciate being able to have some idea as to
what was discussed there.

And yes, just to reiterate the offer that Amancio touched upon:
I think that getting FreeBSD related articles into more english
language magazines (the Japanese and European mags appearing to be
already well-served by their more aggressive article-writing populii
:-) is important enough that I'm willing to sweeten the pot.  Get your
article accepted into some publication like "PC Week" or "Dr Dobbs"
and whatever they pay in royalties, I'll match.

We have to get the word out more effectively than we're doing now and
that's the bottom line.  What's it going to take to get the american
writers off their butts? ;-)

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Jul 12 18:02:17 1997
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Subject: Re: SFBAUG Notes 
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From: Amancio Hasty 
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I think that up at www.freebsd.org in the top left column:

If you write an article on FreeBSD for a magazine...
We will match dollar for dollar whatever the major magazine
pays in royalties....


	Amancio

>From The Desk Of "Jordan K. Hubbard" :
> Thanks for the summary, Amancio!  I'm sure that those who didn't get
> to attend the meeting appreciate being able to have some idea as to
> what was discussed there.
> 
> And yes, just to reiterate the offer that Amancio touched upon:
> I think that getting FreeBSD related articles into more english
> language magazines (the Japanese and European mags appearing to be
> already well-served by their more aggressive article-writing populii
> :-) is important enough that I'm willing to sweeten the pot.  Get your
> article accepted into some publication like "PC Week" or "Dr Dobbs"
> and whatever they pay in royalties, I'll match.
> 
> We have to get the word out more effectively than we're doing now and
> that's the bottom line.  What's it going to take to get the american
> writers off their butts? ;-)
> 
> 					Jordan
> ........... http://www.arachna.com/freebsd/freebsd-sf.html ...............
> --- to unsubscribe "unsubscribe freebsd-sf" to majordomo@arachna.com ----



From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Jul 12 18:12:30 1997
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To: Annelise Anderson 
cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: My opinion about freebsd (fwd) 
In-reply-to:  
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 11:14:31 +1000
Message-ID: <26802.868756471@nemeton.com.au>
From: Giles Lean 
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On Sat, 12 Jul 1997 11:28:44 -0700 (PDT)  Annelise Anderson wrote:

> 	It seems it's not the usability once installed and 
> configured, it's getting to that point (partly a documentation problem,
> partly just the inherent complexity of the system).  

I can tell you horror stories about the installation of Windows 95.
Windows is more aggressive about probing hardware, which is a win for
inexperienced users *when it gets it right*.

FreeBSD's rather more "you tell me" approach has a far higher success
rate than Windows in the case that the user *does* know the setup of
the hardware.

> 	I'm pretty close here to talking myself into a position about
> which I'm not really enthusiastic--that to run FreeBSD you need to
> acquire a good deal of the knowledge of a unix professional (including
> some knowledge of C) and that my hypothetical dissident in the provinces
> isn't going to make it.

You seemed more optimistic in the first paragraph!  The knowledge you
list here *helps*, no doubt about it, but I don't think it is
essential.

I've had a MVS operator run up NetBSD-0.9 (some years back, of course)
and start learning C programming.  A non-political dissident,
perhaps. :-)

Regards,

Giles

From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Jul 12 19:24:36 1997
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From: "John S. Dyson" 
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Subject: Re: My opinion about freebsd (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199707130015.RAA00448@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "Jul 12, 97 05:15:14 pm"
To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 21:24:06 -0500 (EST)
Cc: m230761@ingenieria.ingsala.unal.edu.co, andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu,
        freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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> >From The Desk Of Pedro Giffuni :
> > IMO, FreeBSD and the GNU systems will win over M$ on the long run:
> > mercenaries just can't beat organizations that don't depend on
> > Big-Bucks(TM) :-).
> > 
> 
> It is not clear to me that FreeBSD will be free from the 
> influence of Big-Bucks(TM) :(
> 
(These are my opinions ONLY).

Nor will Linux or any other OS or project that is adopted to be used
by companies who "like" the free product.  FreeBSD has done well
when being influenced by lots of small companies, and will be doing
better by having works folded into it from the large organizations and
companies.

One advantage of free, unencumbered software, is that you don't have
to pay a significant incremental cost for simply copying it and including
it into your codebase.  Additionally, using FreeBSD, you are not forced to
upgrade to the latest version because of obsolesence issues (e.g. Office 97.)
Of course, it is sometimes easier to use the latest, greatest versions.  However,
with source code and the rights to redistribute objects built using the source
without costly encumberances -- the person/company creating the various products
has ultimate control when using FreeBSD whether or not to upgrade.

At ANY time, companies like Microsoft can turn off the WinNT 3.51 spigot, and
force you to upgrade your distributions to 4.0 SPn.  This is not a problem
at all with FreeBSD, or a problem even with GPLed software.

I believe some of the important factors that will ensure FreeBSD's future include
standards adherence, quality, and making sure that the core of the system
is free to be redistributed in binary and source form, and people/companies do not loose
signifcant freedom as a tradeoff for incorporating FreeBSD into their product
or service.

John

From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Jul 12 23:32:57 1997
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From: "Joel N. Weber II" 
To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: <33C83C6C.3715@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> (message from Pedro
	Giffuni on Sat, 12 Jul 1997 19:24:44 -0700)
Subject: Re: My opinion about freebsd (fwd)
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   (Before someone says GNU is a replacement for communism, remember this
   is all IMHO)

If GNU was communist, then the government would have declared that
everyone would use GNU, and Richard Stallman would be in charge
of software development in the US.

I recently spent a week with RMS, and although I respect him, I
don't htink I'd want to live in a world which he controlled.
I'm not sure I consider all the repetitive OS development productive,
but I'd certainly rather see the same SCSI driver written seprately
by the BSD and GPL communities rather than have the government mandating
that everyone use VMS and nothing else.

I wish everything could work by anarchy.  But I think money will always
be dominant.  I don't think we can get free food the way we have
free software, because software is inherently easy to copy, and
restirctions that make software non-free are artificial.  By
contrast, food production has always been time-consuming.