From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 31 02:00:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA25277 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 31 May 1998 02:00:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mooseriver.com (dynamic46.pm02.sf3d.best.com [209.24.234.110]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA25127; Sun, 31 May 1998 01:59:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id BAA05351; Sun, 31 May 1998 01:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980531015955.A5337@mooseriver.com> Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 01:59:55 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Creating a list of retail outlets for FreeBSD Reply-To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I am putting together a list of retail outlets for FreeBSD. This information will be included on the Retail Outlet web page. http://www.freebsd-support.com/Retail.html The information that is most helpful is the store name, location (city, state), phone number, web or email address. Look at the web page then send me what ever information you might have. Thanks Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.7 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 31 04:43:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA13943 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 31 May 1998 04:43:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw.pacbell.net (mail-gw.pacbell.net [206.13.28.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA13921 for ; Sun, 31 May 1998 04:43:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-29-232.wnck11.pacbell.net [206.170.29.232]) by mail-gw.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id EAA18976; Sun, 31 May 1998 04:42:34 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" To: , Cc: Subject: Re: Creating a list of retail outlets for FreeBSD Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 04:36:25 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd8c88$57f29b00$e81daace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----Original Message----- From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sunday, May 31, 1998 2:00 AM Subject: Creating a list of retail outlets for FreeBSD >I am putting together a list of retail outlets for FreeBSD. This >information will be included on the Retail Outlet web page. > > http://www.freebsd-support.com/Retail.html > >The information that is most helpful is the store name, location (city, >state), phone number, web or email address. Look at the web page then send >me what ever information you might have. this is very good. do you have a liason at WC? i cc'ed them on this. hopefully some of them will email you directly. -jack >Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.7 >jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 31 04:57:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA15029 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 31 May 1998 04:57:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mooseriver.com (dynamic20.pm01.san-mateo.best.com [205.149.174.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA15018 for ; Sun, 31 May 1998 04:57:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id EAA06899; Sun, 31 May 1998 04:57:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980531045702.A6862@mooseriver.com> Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 04:57:02 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Jack Velte , jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: sales@cdrom.com Subject: Re: Creating a list of retail outlets for FreeBSD Reply-To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com References: <01bd8c88$57f29b00$e81daace@eliot.pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <01bd8c88$57f29b00$e81daace@eliot.pacbell.net>; from Jack Velte on Sun, May 31, 1998 at 04:36:25AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, May 31, 1998 at 04:36:25AM -0700, Jack Velte wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Josef Grosch > To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org > Date: Sunday, May 31, 1998 2:00 AM > Subject: Creating a list of retail outlets for FreeBSD > > > >I am putting together a list of retail outlets for FreeBSD. This > >information will be included on the Retail Outlet web page. > > > > http://www.freebsd-support.com/Retail.html > > > >The information that is most helpful is the store name, location (city, > >state), phone number, web or email address. Look at the web page then send > >me what ever information you might have. > > this is very good. do you have a liason at WC? i cc'ed them on this. > hopefully some of them will email you directly. > Thank you. I have no relationship with Walnut Creek other than buying FreeBSD CDs since 1993. I have seen a good number of people on this list asking where they can buy FreeBSD. I am hoping that WC will send me some names of retailers. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.7 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 31 05:47:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA20921 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 31 May 1998 05:47:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA20900 for ; Sun, 31 May 1998 05:46:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id IAA21176; Sun, 31 May 1998 08:41:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 08:46:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: Josef Grosch cc: Jack Velte , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, sales@cdrom.com Subject: Re: Creating a list of retail outlets for FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <19980531045702.A6862@mooseriver.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 31 May 1998, Josef Grosch wrote: > Thank you. I have no relationship with Walnut Creek other than buying > FreeBSD CDs since 1993. I have seen a good number of people on this list > asking where they can buy FreeBSD. I am hoping that WC will send me some > names of retailers. Indelible Blue who used to be an OS/2 ONLY shop is selling FreeBSD cd's I believe for like 29 bucks a pop. www.indelible-blue.com I think. Chris -- "I don't do favors, I accumulate debts" ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 31 09:07:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA08777 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 31 May 1998 09:07:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.realtime.net (mail1.realtime.net [205.238.128.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA08747 for ; Sun, 31 May 1998 09:06:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jktheowl@bga.com) Received: (qmail 30536 invoked from network); 31 May 1998 16:06:54 -0000 Received: from zoom.realtime.net (HELO zoom.bga.com) (root@205.238.128.40) by mail1.realtime.net with SMTP; 31 May 1998 16:06:54 -0000 Received: from barnowl (apm5-173.realtime.net [205.238.146.173]) by zoom.bga.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA11700; Sun, 31 May 1998 11:06:51 -0500 Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 11:13:54 -0500 (CDT) From: John Kenagy X-Sender: jktheowl@barnowl To: Josef Grosch cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Creating a list of retail outlets for FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <19980531015955.A5337@mooseriver.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 31 May 1998, Josef Grosch wrote: > I am putting together a list of retail outlets for FreeBSD. This > information will be included on the Retail Outlet web page. > > http://www.freebsd-support.com/Retail.html > > The information that is most helpful is the store name, location (city, > state), phone number, web or email address. Look at the web page then send > me what ever information you might have. > > Thanks > > > Josef Josef Here are a few more that I've checked out (with comment). They are just the urls but they should be easy to find locally. Borders Books www.BordersStores.com -- a site with a directory of local stores the Austin, Tx store has 2.2.5 with Greg's book. Barnes and Noble - no stock but will order from their warehouse www.barnesandnoble.com -- main site - you can order on line www.bkstore.com -- B & N college book stores listing Bookpeople - Local to Austin, TX www.bookpeople.com -- stock 2.2.5 w/Greg's book and a vary complete O'Reilly stock John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 31 11:23:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA25116 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 31 May 1998 11:23:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (lee@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net [208.213.203.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA25096; Sun, 31 May 1998 11:23:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lee@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net) Received: (from lee@localhost) by st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA01091; Sun, 31 May 1998 14:22:48 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lee) Message-ID: <19980531142248.21445@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net> Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 14:22:48 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans To: John Kenagy Cc: Josef Grosch , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Creating a list of retail outlets for FreeBSD Reply-To: lcremean@tidalwave.net References: <19980531015955.A5337@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: ; from John Kenagy on Sun, May 31, 1998 at 11:13:54AM -0500 X-OS: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE (soon to be 3.0-CURRENT) X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, May 31, 1998 at 11:13:54AM -0500, John Kenagy wrote: > > > On Sun, 31 May 1998, Josef Grosch wrote: > > > I am putting together a list of retail outlets for FreeBSD. This > > information will be included on the Retail Outlet web page. > > > > http://www.freebsd-support.com/Retail.html > > > > The information that is most helpful is the store name, location (city, > > state), phone number, web or email address. Look at the web page then send > > me what ever information you might have. > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Josef > > Josef > > Here are a few more that I've checked out (with comment). They are > just the urls but they should be easy to find locally. > > Borders Books > > www.BordersStores.com -- a site with a directory of local stores > the Austin, Tx store has 2.2.5 with Greg's book. > > Barnes and Noble - no stock but will order from their warehouse > > www.barnesandnoble.com -- main site - you can order on line > www.bkstore.com -- B & N college book stores listing > > Bookpeople - Local to Austin, TX > > www.bookpeople.com -- stock 2.2.5 w/Greg's book and a vary complete > O'Reilly stock > Micro Center - nationwide, mostly Eastern I think Vienna, VA store has the 4-CD set, but not Greg's book. www.microcenter.com, but no online ordering. -- Lee C. -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet #watertower) A! JW223 YWD+++^ri P&B++ SL+++^i GDF B&M KK--i MD+++i P++ I++++ Did $++ E5/10/70/3c/73ac/95/96 H2 PonPippi Ay77 M | lcremean@tidalwave.net FreeBSD/Linux/Unix hacker...Win95 and M$ evil! (go see www.freebsd.org) My home page: http://st-lcremean.tidalwave.net/~lee | finger me for geek code To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 31 13:52:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA19451 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 31 May 1998 13:52:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA19147; Sun, 31 May 1998 13:50:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (dialB04.aei.ca [206.123.6.88]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA14649; Sun, 31 May 1998 16:50:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3571C268.4C33042F@aei.ca> Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 16:49:44 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lcremean@tidalwave.net CC: John Kenagy , Josef Grosch , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Creating a list of retail outlets for FreeBSD References: <19980531015955.A5337@mooseriver.com> <19980531142248.21445@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Lee Cremeans wrote: > On Sun, May 31, 1998 at 11:13:54AM -0500, John Kenagy wrote: > > > > > > On Sun, 31 May 1998, Josef Grosch wrote: > > > > > I am putting together a list of retail outlets for FreeBSD. This > > > information will be included on the Retail Outlet web page. > > > > > > http://www.freebsd-support.com/Retail.html > > > > > > The information that is most helpful is the store name, location (city, > > > state), phone number, web or email address. Look at the web page then send > > > me what ever information you might have. > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > Josef > > > > Josef > > > > Here are a few more that I've checked out (with comment). They are > > just the urls but they should be easy to find locally. > > > > Borders Books > > > > www.BordersStores.com -- a site with a directory of local stores > > the Austin, Tx store has 2.2.5 with Greg's book. > > > > Barnes and Noble - no stock but will order from their warehouse > > > > www.barnesandnoble.com -- main site - you can order on line > > www.bkstore.com -- B & N college book stores listing > > > > Bookpeople - Local to Austin, TX > > > > www.bookpeople.com -- stock 2.2.5 w/Greg's book and a vary complete > > O'Reilly stock > > > > Micro Center - nationwide, mostly Eastern I think > > Vienna, VA store has the 4-CD set, but not Greg's book. > www.microcenter.com, but no online ordering. > > -- > Lee C. -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet #watertower) > A! JW223 YWD+++^ri P&B++ SL+++^i GDF B&M KK--i MD+++i P++ I++++ Did > $++ E5/10/70/3c/73ac/95/96 H2 PonPippi Ay77 M | lcremean@tidalwave.net > FreeBSD/Linux/Unix hacker...Win95 and M$ evil! (go see www.freebsd.org) > My home page: http://st-lcremean.tidalwave.net/~lee | finger me for geek code > -- -------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD-2.2.6 -------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 31 13:59:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA21367 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 31 May 1998 13:59:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA21245; Sun, 31 May 1998 13:58:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (dialB04.aei.ca [206.123.6.88]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA15253; Sun, 31 May 1998 16:58:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3571C436.D958D2B8@aei.ca> Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 16:57:27 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lcremean@tidalwave.net CC: John Kenagy , Josef Grosch , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Creating a list of retail outlets for FreeBSD References: <19980531015955.A5337@mooseriver.com> <19980531142248.21445@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Lee Cremeans wrote: > On Sun, May 31, 1998 at 11:13:54AM -0500, John Kenagy wrote: > > > > > > On Sun, 31 May 1998, Josef Grosch wrote: > > > > > I am putting together a list of retail outlets for FreeBSD. This > > > information will be included on the Retail Outlet web page. > > > > > > http://www.freebsd-support.com/Retail.html > > > > > > The information that is most helpful is the store name, location (city, > > > state), phone number, web or email address. Look at the web page then send > > > me what ever information you might have. > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > Josef > > > > Josef > > > > Here are a few more that I've checked out (with comment). They are > > just the urls but they should be easy to find locally. > > > > Borders Books > > > > www.BordersStores.com -- a site with a directory of local stores > > the Austin, Tx store has 2.2.5 with Greg's book. > > > > Barnes and Noble - no stock but will order from their warehouse > > > > www.barnesandnoble.com -- main site - you can order on line > > www.bkstore.com -- B & N college book stores listing > > > > Bookpeople - Local to Austin, TX > > > > www.bookpeople.com -- stock 2.2.5 w/Greg's book and a vary complete > > O'Reilly stock > > > > Micro Center - nationwide, mostly Eastern I think > > Vienna, VA store has the 4-CD set, but not Greg's book. > www.microcenter.com, but no online ordering. > http://www.camelot.ca/ 1191, Place Phillips, Montréal, Quebec, Canada, H3B 3C9 (514) 861-5019 1, Place Ville-Marie, Montréal, Quebec Canada, H3B 3Y1 (514) 861-7400 Place de la Cité, Sainte-Foy, Quebec, Canada, G1V 4T3 (418) 653-8888 -- -------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD-2.2.6 -------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 31 17:10:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA20692 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 31 May 1998 17:10:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sequoia.lituus.fr (ppp78.hol.fr [195.154.2.179]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA20487 for ; Sun, 31 May 1998 17:10:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@mail.hol.fr) Received: (from root@localhost) by sequoia.lituus.fr (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA14496; Sun, 31 May 1998 23:20:54 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from root) Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 23:20:54 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <199805312120.XAA14496@sequoia.lituus.fr> From: Stephane Legrand MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Creating a list of retail outlets for FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <19980531015955.A5337@mooseriver.com> References: <19980531015955.A5337@mooseriver.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Josef Grosch writes: > I am putting together a list of retail outlets for FreeBSD. This > information will be included on the Retail Outlet web page. > > http://www.freebsd-support.com/Retail.html > > The information that is most helpful is the store name, location (city, > state), phone number, web or email address. Look at the web page then send > me what ever information you might have. > For France, you can add : - "Le Monde en Tique" : http://www.lmet.fr/ - "MCD2 Diffusion" : http://www.mcd2-diff.fr/ Stephane Legrand. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jun 1 20:28:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA23105 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 20:28:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from janeway.tgci.com (janeway.tgci.com [205.185.169.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA23081 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 20:28:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chaos@tgci.com) Received: from emilyd (pool006-max13.ds23-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.27.6]) by janeway.tgci.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA18172 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 20:27:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chaos@tgci.com) Message-Id: <199806020327.UAA18172@janeway.tgci.com> From: "Riley J. McIntire" Organization: The Grantsmanship Center To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 20:15:16 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: View Touch open source Reply-to: chaos@tgci.com Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I haven't followed this forum much lately, so apologies if this has appeared before, but I found Gene Mosher's column in NC World and his move to Open Source software fascinating. http://www.ncworldmag.com/ncw-05-1998/ncw-05-genesplicer.html?0601 He brings up a point about the lack of focus on network computing in the Linux and FreeBSD camps that makes a lot of sense in that it would seem to be an ideal use for an OS such as fbsd. Best, Riley To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 2 11:46:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA18603 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:46:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw6.pacbell.net (mail-gw6.pacbell.net [206.13.28.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA18589 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:46:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-1-217.snfc21.pacbell.net [206.170.1.217]) by mail-gw6.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id LAA20760; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:45:51 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" To: "Oddbjorn Steffensen" Cc: "Greg Lehey" , Subject: Re: you can talk the talk, can you walk the walk? Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:35:34 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd8e55$3ac07e20$d901aace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----Original Message----- From: Oddbjorn Steffensen To: Jack Velte Date: Tuesday, June 02, 1998 5:05 AM Subject: Re: you can talk the talk, can you walk the walk? >No offence, but I think you'd be able to sell your ideas more >easily if you structured them a bit better, and perhaps even >touched that Shift key once in a while.. no, no. i welcome some comments. so far this is the first. i try to double space between sentences. Sometimes the sentences don't make sense, though. i'd really like a line by line reading of what You think i wrote. it would be !useful and if i get some stock, i'll owe you, eh? thank you. kind regards, -jack >-oddbjørn > >_________________________________________________________________________ >If you assume that there's no hope, http://oddbjorn.bdc.no/ >you guarantee that there will be no hope. >-- Noam Chomsky FreeBSD: not win98 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 3 19:40:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA07384 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 19:40:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.1.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA07267 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 19:39:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (narn-1-33.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.134.33]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.9.0) id VAA29264 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 21:39:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id VAA14139 for freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 21:39:37 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980604023931.ZM14138@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 02:39:31 +0000 In-Reply-To: "Jack Velte" "notFreeBSD plan, v 4" (May 30, 8:11pm) References: <01bd8c41$e0262100$4a1daace@eliot.pacbell.net> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: Subject: Unix Review --NT suckup rag MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In the latest issue, July, someone wrote a response to Don Wilde's letter to the editor. FreeBSD gets a nasty shot on Yahoo Message Baords being slow. IMHO, another badly written article used to slam us and praise Linux. Calls the FreeBSD project "the last gasp of a fine research project that is now over". Makes a big issue about FreeBSD not having commercial support, and that the FreeBSD books are little more than bound man pages. Sorry Don, you made a good effort. Wonder what kind of fire my letter to them will draw -- to be published in the August issue. Disgusting!! Frank To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 3 20:44:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA16987 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 20:44:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA16948 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 20:44:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA19568 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 20:44:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 20:44:06 -0700 Message-ID: <19560.896931846.1@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Something else for our "press" page? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----- =_aaaaaaaaaa" Content-Description: Blind Carbon Copy Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG To: undisclosed-recipients:; ------- =_aaaaaaaaaa Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Description: Original Message To: www@freebsd.org Subject: Something else for our "press" page? Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 20:44:06 -0700 Message-ID: <19560.896931846@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Though this isn't really "press" so much as a think-tank's analysis of the issue of free Unix. It's quite interesting in any case and I thank Manuel Morales for forwarding me a copy: http://advisor.gartner.com/inbox/articles/ihl2_6398.html - Jordan ------- =_aaaaaaaaaa-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 3 21:38:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA23684 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 21:38:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA23678 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 21:38:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA19931; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 21:38:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: "Frank Pawlak" cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unix Review --NT suckup rag In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 04 Jun 1998 02:39:31 -0000." <980604023931.ZM14138@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 21:38:42 -0700 Message-ID: <19926.896935122@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > IMHO, another badly written article used to slam us and praise Linux. Calls > the FreeBSD project "the last gasp of a fine research project that is now > over". Makes a big issue about FreeBSD not having commercial support, and th at > the FreeBSD books are little more than bound man pages. Well, it's always good to listen to the dissenting opinions. Sometimes they even have a point, like that last one about too many man pages in our single book. I totally agree, I slammed the man pages when they first went in and if I had more to do with determining just what the content of that book was, I'd have never bloated it out to 1700 pages just by adding in a lot of man pages. That was a move made for purely marketing reasons and any shots to the jaw we get over it are probably deserved. Unfortunately, I also didn't have 500 pages of my own to contribute which would have made the book a far better product and so I really couldn't do much more than grumble about the man pages. Seeing as how I had nothing _constructive_ to offer the book, I had to pretty much just shut my mouth and like it if I didn't want someone coming back with "if you want a better book then write the one you've been promising to write for over 2 years, you choad!" :-) And as far as commercial support is concerned, I agree with that too and that's really probably come down most to just us here at Walnut Creek CDROM dropping the ball. We have the infrastructure, we have the funds and we could get the personnel if we just pulled our thumbs out and decided to go for it, but the tech-support canyon before which we stand is also a very deep one, and I suppose we can be forgiven for showing a little reticence to jump. In any case, we have two important points to work on as a result of this criticism: Better books and thumb removal on the part of those who should now be putting a commercial support organization into place. As far as being a "last gasp" is concerned, well, we all know that's so manifestly untrue that we don't even need to get upset at such a laughably transparent attempt to get our goat. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 3 22:21:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA00477 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 22:21:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.1.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA00447 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 22:21:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (harconia-1-109.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.132.109]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.9.0) id AAA13218; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 00:21:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id AAA14759; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 00:21:12 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980604052111.ZM14758@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 05:21:11 +0000 In-Reply-To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" "Something else for our "press" page?" (Jun 3, 8:44pm) References: <19560.896931846.1@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: Something else for our "press" page? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Jun 3, 8:44pm, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Subject: Something else for our "press" page? > > [ Original Message ] : > > To: www@freebsd.org > Subject: Something else for our "press" page? > Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 20:44:06 -0700 > Message-ID: <19560.896931846@time.cdrom.com> > From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" > > Though this isn't really "press" so much as a think-tank's analysis of > the issue of free Unix. It's quite interesting in any case and I > thank Manuel Morales for forwarding me a copy: > > http://advisor.gartner.com/inbox/articles/ihl2_6398.html > > - Jordan >-- End of excerpt from Jordan K. Hubbard I just sent Rob Kolstad a copy of this report. He must be real pleased that Gartner places his product in the "Free Unix" category. ;-) Frank To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 3 22:46:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA03402 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 22:46:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.1.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA03326 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 22:45:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (harconia-1-109.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.132.109]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.9.0) id AAA14262; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 00:45:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id AAA14792; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 00:45:50 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980604054549.ZM14791@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 05:45:49 +0000 In-Reply-To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" "Re: Unix Review --NT suckup rag" (Jun 3, 9:38pm) References: <19926.896935122@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Frank Pawlak" Subject: Re: Unix Review --NT suckup rag Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan, AS usual you are on target. Glad to hear that things (positive thinking) are starting to move toward commercial support. I am going to reply to that letter just on the principle that UNIX Review is bottom fishing when they publish rejoinders that are full of half truths and unsubstantated statements. Maybe if enough of us that appreciate what that publication was when they were devoted to solid technical articles keep bitching, and they are getting bombed by such, perhaps the editor will get a life and Unix Review will return to its' roots. Not holding my breath however. ;-) Frank On Jun 3, 9:38pm, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Subject: Re: Unix Review --NT suckup rag > > IMHO, another badly written article used to slam us and praise Linux. Calls > > the FreeBSD project "the last gasp of a fine research project that is now > > over". Makes a big issue about FreeBSD not having commercial support, and th > at > > the FreeBSD books are little more than bound man pages. > > Well, it's always good to listen to the dissenting opinions. > Sometimes they even have a point, like that last one about too many > man pages in our single book. I totally agree, I slammed the man > pages when they first went in and if I had more to do with determining > just what the content of that book was, I'd have never bloated it out > to 1700 pages just by adding in a lot of man pages. That was a move > made for purely marketing reasons and any shots to the jaw we get over > it are probably deserved. Unfortunately, I also didn't have 500 pages > of my own to contribute which would have made the book a far better > product and so I really couldn't do much more than grumble about the > man pages. Seeing as how I had nothing _constructive_ to offer the > book, I had to pretty much just shut my mouth and like it if I didn't > want someone coming back with "if you want a better book then write > the one you've been promising to write for over 2 years, you choad!" :-) > > And as far as commercial support is concerned, I agree with that too > and that's really probably come down most to just us here at Walnut > Creek CDROM dropping the ball. We have the infrastructure, we have > the funds and we could get the personnel if we just pulled our thumbs > out and decided to go for it, but the tech-support canyon before which > we stand is also a very deep one, and I suppose we can be forgiven for > showing a little reticence to jump. > > In any case, we have two important points to work on as a result of > this criticism: Better books and thumb removal on the part of those > who should now be putting a commercial support organization into > place. As far as being a "last gasp" is concerned, well, we all know > that's so manifestly untrue that we don't even need to get upset at > such a laughably transparent attempt to get our goat. :) > > - Jordan >-- End of excerpt from Jordan K. Hubbard To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 4 04:29:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA21941 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 04:29:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA21923 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 04:28:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA20861 for freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 13:28:44 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 13:28:44 +0200 (CEST) From: Oliver Fromme Message-Id: <199806041128.NAA20861@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: "Linux is UNIX, and FreeBSD is not?" Newsgroups: list.freebsd-advocacy Organization: Administration Heim 3 Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 RZTUC(3) PL2] Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As we probably all know, neither FreeBSD nor Linux can be legally called a "UNIX system" [*1]. However, this might change in the future, as far as Linux is concerned: http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/980529/uniforum_a_2.html That article essentially says that there are efforts -- supported by The Open Group -- to get Linux the "UNIX98" brand. >From a technical point of view, I'd say that FreeBSD is certainly more "unixish" than Linux, given the fact that it is derived from 4.4BSD, while Linux is basically a complete rewrite (and besides: it is GNU, and "GNU's Not UNIX" ;-). Needless to say, I'm worried that one day Linux can be legally called a UNIX system, while FreeBSD (still) cannot. Regards Oliver [*1] http://www.UNIX-systems.org/what_is_unix.html and in particular: http://www.UNIX-systems.org/what_is_unix/flavors_of_unix.html -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18-61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 4 04:50:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA24715 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 04:50:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from m1.gdr.net.au (root@dub014.pronet.net.au [203.34.103.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA24597 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 04:50:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@pronet.net.au) Received: from right.gdr.net.au (right.gdr.net.au [192.168.0.2]) by m1.gdr.net.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA12165 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 21:53:04 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: Message-Id: X-Sender: freebsd@mail.pronet.net.au (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 21:34:46 +1000 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: phil grainger Subject: Re: Unix Review --NT suckup rag In-Reply-To: <19926.896935122@time.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 09:38 PM 3/06/1998 -0700, Jordan wrote: >And as far as commercial support is concerned, I agree with that too >and that's really probably come down most to just us here at Walnut >Creek CDROM dropping the ball. We have the infrastructure, we have >the funds and we could get the personnel if we just pulled our thumbs >out and decided to go for it, but the tech-support canyon before which >we stand is also a very deep one, and I suppose we can be forgiven for >showing a little reticence to jump. >- Jordan > I nearly fell of my chair when I read that. Walnut Creek IMHO is probably not the right organisation to offer commercial support for (our) freebsd, But 110% better than none or just talking about it. WC has a great product line, but selling shareware doesn't compare to maintaining unix boxes, and it isn't a global company. I think your reticance about pushing walnut creek into the commercial unix business is partially justified. But does this mean a commercial support is put on hold till Walnut Creek gets around to it? Have you spoken to the bsd programming team yet? I look forward to doing some chequebook/visa-card computing :-) How difficult can it be (or how bad is the standard of the average system admin)? I sold a 28.8k modem to a "network administrator" at a local uni, I emailed him to find out how it was going a few days later, he complained of only getting 3k a sec and not 28k. This guy has root password on the uni's firewall-webserver-internet gateway HP unix box ... good luck jordan ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 4 06:44:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA08247 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 06:44:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA08241 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 06:44:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-133.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.133]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA54450; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 13:44:31 GMT Message-ID: <3576A3C9.BB6EAC11@ibm.net> Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 06:40:25 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frank Pawlak CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unix Review --NT suckup rag References: <01bd8c41$e0262100$4a1daace@eliot.pacbell.net> <980604023931.ZM14138@darkstar.connect.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG That's okay, I think I'm going to send the renewal notice I just got to mhall himself -- with rejected on it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 4 06:54:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA09245 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 06:54:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA09238 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 06:54:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA22174; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 06:54:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: phil grainger cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unix Review --NT suckup rag In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 04 Jun 1998 21:34:46 +1000." Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 06:54:28 -0700 Message-ID: <22170.896968468@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Walnut Creek IMHO is probably not the right organisation to offer > commercial support for (our) freebsd, > But 110% better than none or just talking about it. That's basically my attitude. It would be uncharted territory for them and there are certainly more ideal scenarios I could imagine for a tech support org, but they also probably have a better "core" of engineers on tap than anyone (myself, dg, mike, etc) and given that they already have a payroll dept, medical plan, insurance and all the other dozen things you're going to need if you want to hire 4 or 5 people and put them on the phones to provide "primary" support, it makes it just that much easier to contemplate. Any figures out there on "median pricing" of tech support contracts, both email-only and email + phone-in? Do people see a serious demand for on-site engineering visits as well? > Have you spoken to the bsd programming team yet? Who's that? :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 4 09:32:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA09783 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 09:32:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason02.u.washington.edu (root@jason02.u.washington.edu [140.142.76.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA09775 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 09:32:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul4.u.washington.edu (root@saul4.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.2]) by jason02.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id JAA20330 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 09:32:38 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id JAA21609 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 09:32:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 09:22:23 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Linux is UNIX, and FreeBSD is not?" In-Reply-To: <199806041128.NAA20861@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >That article essentially says that there are efforts -- >supported by The Open Group -- to get Linux the "UNIX98" >brand. This is a total vent but I have to get this off my chest. The Open Group: Now there is a contradiction in terms. Call my observation myopic if you like. TOG seems to be engaged in the process of ENCUMBERING any thing they can get their hands on. I really don't like anything I read from them. I can't understand why orgs line up to get some stupid brand from them for there OS. Special Offer - This month only! You can name FreeBSD "Jason Wells" if you pay me a fat royalty for doing absolutely nothing. In the mean time, you better start paying me a fat royalty for the Free GUI from MIT you have been using all along. I don't care how much you helped me develop it in the past. Funny that Mr. Torvalds would chide TOG for it's handling of X and now we may see TOG branded Linux. That is funny (I am not laughing). Licensing makes for strange bedfellows. If this happens, it is an attempt by TOG to get back in bed with the free software community after the X licensing change. Almost no one that I know of supported their decision. I say the entire Linux camp and the TOG can go sleep in the doghouse together. (37 expletives deleted in the interest of decorum. Insert expletive at random for proper reading of this message.) Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ | 206-633-5994 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 4 10:11:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA16931 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 10:11:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA16893 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 10:11:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id KAA18651 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 10:11:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 10:11:43 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Linux is UNIX, and FreeBSD is not?" In-Reply-To: <199806041128.NAA20861@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Who cares? We still have the better OS. Names are nothing in this game to techies - and they are the ones in most cases making decisions. -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Oliver Fromme wrote: >As we probably all know, neither FreeBSD nor Linux can be >legally called a "UNIX system" [*1]. However, this might >change in the future, as far as Linux is concerned: > > http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/980529/uniforum_a_2.html > >That article essentially says that there are efforts -- >supported by The Open Group -- to get Linux the "UNIX98" >brand. > >>From a technical point of view, I'd say that FreeBSD is >certainly more "unixish" than Linux, given the fact that it >is derived from 4.4BSD, while Linux is basically a complete >rewrite (and besides: it is GNU, and "GNU's Not UNIX" ;-). >Needless to say, I'm worried that one day Linux can be >legally called a UNIX system, while FreeBSD (still) cannot. > >Regards > Oliver > >[*1] http://www.UNIX-systems.org/what_is_unix.html > and in particular: > http://www.UNIX-systems.org/what_is_unix/flavors_of_unix.html > >-- >Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18-61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany >(Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 4 14:02:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA06385 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:02:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from huron.nvl.virginia.edu (adrian@huron.nvl.Virginia.EDU [128.143.244.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA06174 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:00:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@nvl.virginia.edu) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by huron.nvl.virginia.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with SMTP id RAA14870; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 17:00:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 17:00:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrian Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: "Jan B. Koum " cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Linux is UNIX, and FreeBSD is not?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Jan B. Koum wrote: > > Who cares? We still have the better OS. Names are nothing in this > game to techies - and they are the ones in most cases making decisions. > > -- Yan I wish that were true. I certainly wasn't the techie that said go out and buy a bunch of WinNT PC's for my lab. All too frequently PC purchasing decisions are being taken out of techie-hands, because it is perceived as no more complex than buying any other piece of office equipment. This is one reason why MS can get such a big boost out of trade rag press that only executives see. Personally I'd like to see FreeBSD receive some of the major standards conformance brands like UNIX, POSIX or XPG. I'd even be willing to contribute money directly to such an approach. Cyngnus/GNU was able to get enough institutions to chip in to get the $100K needed to create a reliable gcc port when Sun unbundled the C compiler. Does anmyone thing we could do the same with FreeBSD standards branding? If anything the fact that there is only one FreeBSD is to our advantage here. Each Linux distribution will need to independently get certified. We only have one OS distribution to worry about. While I agree that the branding is not productive in and of itself, it does open a lot of doors/minds that ignore any product without such a brand. If anything, you can then hold up a copy of HP-UX and FreeBSD in each hand and say, "They're both UNIX(tm). Do you want the cheaper, faster one or the expenssive, proprietary hardware one?" Adrian -- adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 4 14:08:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA08000 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:08:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw.pacbell.net (mail-gw.pacbell.net [206.13.28.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA07753 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:07:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-32-159.snfc21.pacbell.net [206.170.32.159]) by mail-gw.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id OAA07702 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:07:22 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" To: Subject: Re: "Linux is UNIX, and FreeBSD is not?" Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:02:12 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd8ffc$0bac1740$f820aace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG is anyone working on this issue? did i hear someone volunteer jordan? uh. would someone else like to work on it? -jack >Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want >www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." > >On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Oliver Fromme wrote: > >>As we probably all know, neither FreeBSD nor Linux can be >>legally called a "UNIX system" [*1]. However, this might >>change in the future, as far as Linux is concerned: >> >> http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/980529/uniforum_a_2.html >> >>That article essentially says that there are efforts -- >>supported by The Open Group -- to get Linux the "UNIX98" >>brand. >> >>>From a technical point of view, I'd say that FreeBSD is >>certainly more "unixish" than Linux, given the fact that it >>is derived from 4.4BSD, while Linux is basically a complete >>rewrite (and besides: it is GNU, and "GNU's Not UNIX" ;-). >>Needless to say, I'm worried that one day Linux can be >>legally called a UNIX system, while FreeBSD (still) cannot. >> >>Regards >> Oliver >> >>[*1] http://www.UNIX-systems.org/what_is_unix.html >> and in particular: >> http://www.UNIX-systems.org/what_is_unix/flavors_of_unix.html >> >>-- >>Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18-61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany >>(Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 4 14:53:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA17831 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:53:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from huron.nvl.virginia.edu (adrian@huron.nvl.Virginia.EDU [128.143.244.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA17672 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:52:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@nvl.virginia.edu) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by huron.nvl.virginia.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with SMTP id RAA17388; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 17:52:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 17:52:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrian Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: "Jason C. Wells" cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Linux is UNIX, and FreeBSD is not?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Jason C. Wells wrote: > >That article essentially says that there are efforts -- > >supported by The Open Group -- to get Linux the "UNIX98" > >brand. > > This is a total vent but I have to get this off my chest. > > The Open Group: Now there is a contradiction in terms. Call my observation > myopic if you like. TOG seems to be engaged in the process of ENCUMBERING > any thing they can get their hands on. I really don't like anything I read > from them. I can't understand why orgs line up to get some stupid brand > from them for there OS. Amen, bother! > > Special Offer - This month only! You can name FreeBSD "Jason Wells" if > you pay me a fat royalty for doing absolutely nothing. In the mean time, > you better start paying me a fat royalty for the Free GUI from MIT you > have been using all along. I don't care how much you helped me develop it > in the past. I'll see what my pointy-haired boss thinks. Whom should the check be made out to? > Funny that Mr. Torvalds would chide TOG for it's handling of X and now we > may see TOG branded Linux. That is funny (I am not laughing). Licensing > makes for strange bedfellows. There is one big difference between LINUX getting the brand and TOG's handling of X11R6.4. The latter is only available from TOG. This is starting to put X11 in the same boat as Motif, another bogus proprietary standard. I don't see branding as much of a danger for LINUX, hypocritical or not. On the contrary, it will make pencil-pushing MIS managers topple more easily when techies under them push for a non-bigname solution. Adrian -- adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 4 17:28:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA17783 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 17:28:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA17680 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 17:27:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id JAA02160; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 09:57:31 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980605095731.P768@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 09:57:31 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Jack Velte , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Linux is UNIX, and FreeBSD is not?" References: <01bd8ffc$0bac1740$f820aace@eliot.pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <01bd8ffc$0bac1740$f820aace@eliot.pacbell.net>; from Jack Velte on Thu, Jun 04, 1998 at 02:02:12PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 4 June 1998 at 14:02:12 -0700, Jack Velte wrote: >> On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Oliver Fromme wrote: >> >>> As we probably all know, neither FreeBSD nor Linux can be >>> legally called a "UNIX system" [*1]. However, this might >>> change in the future, as far as Linux is concerned: >>> >>> http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/980529/uniforum_a_2.html >>> >>> That article essentially says that there are efforts -- >>> supported by The Open Group -- to get Linux the "UNIX98" >>> brand. >>> >>>> From a technical point of view, I'd say that FreeBSD is >>> certainly more "unixish" than Linux, given the fact that it >>> is derived from 4.4BSD, while Linux is basically a complete >>> rewrite (and besides: it is GNU, and "GNU's Not UNIX" ;-). >>> Needless to say, I'm worried that one day Linux can be >>> legally called a UNIX system, while FreeBSD (still) cannot. > > is anyone working on this issue? did i hear someone > volunteer jordan? uh. would someone else like to > work on it? We discussed this a while back. We decided that UNIX 98% validation was counterproductive. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 5 04:47:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA03671 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 04:47:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw3.pacbell.net (mail-gw3.pacbell.net [206.13.28.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA03646; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 04:47:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-1-192.snfc21.pacbell.net [206.170.1.192]) by mail-gw3.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id EAA14457; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 04:47:37 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" To: Cc: Subject: Re: FreeBSD Linux emulation Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 04:39:35 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd9076$9d2f37e0$c001aace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG From: John S. Dyson To: drifter@stratos.net Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG ; jackv@earthling.net ; multimedia@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thursday, June 04, 1998 11:54 PM Subject: Re: FreeBSD Linux emulation >> Just out of curiosity, I noticed that when I run Adobe Acrobat >> Reader or StarOffice under Linux emulation, drawing of pages (under >> Acrobat) or toolbar icons (under StarOffice) seems to be painfully >> slow. > >I don't notice that Adobe Acrobat is slow, but StarOffice is almost >always slow, even/especially on Linux. having gateway sell a preconfigured, perfectly set up FreeBSD box would be a good first step toward ultimate stability. -jack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 5 06:48:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA24018 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 06:48:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw3.pacbell.net (mail-gw3.pacbell.net [206.13.28.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA24009 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 06:48:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-1-192.snfc21.pacbell.net [206.170.1.192]) by mail-gw3.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id GAA07875; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 06:48:11 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" To: "phil grainger" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Subject: Re: Unix Review --NT suckup rag Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 06:33:16 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd9086$7ed752e0$c001aace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> Walnut Creek IMHO is probably not the right organisation to offer >> commercial support for (our) freebsd, >> But 110% better than none or just talking about it. > >That's basically my attitude. It would be uncharted territory for it's pretty much true. there may or may not be much management there. the organization needs its own management, and no, not jordan. some of the secretaries can be managers. >they already have a payroll dept, medical plan, insurance and all the does the medical insurance cover workers outside the immediate geographical region? -jack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 5 06:59:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA25459 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 06:59:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA25442 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 06:59:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA29217; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 06:59:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: "Jack Velte" cc: "phil grainger" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unix Review --NT suckup rag In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 05 Jun 1998 06:33:16 PDT." <01bd9086$7ed752e0$c001aace@eliot.pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 06:59:34 -0700 Message-ID: <29213.897055174@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > it's pretty much true. there may or may not be much management > there. the organization needs its own management, and no, not > jordan. some of the secretaries can be managers. No, I think it would basically require some sane, reasonable manager who could handle the personnel issues and day-to-day minutiae of running an office of tech support people while also having enough technical savvy to know how to balance the loads. That means nobody currently employed, and most definitely no one who's ever been employed in the past, by Walnut Creek CDROM quite qualifies and someone would need to be brought in from outside. It's not such a stretch to imagine that. > does the medical insurance cover workers outside the immediate > geographical region? You would specifically not employ people under that model (unless they were only the most occasional and provable contractors) for exactly this reason, another being that "remote support" is really not something which actually works in practice as nicely and conveniently as it may appear on paper. Perhaps it's something which could prove workable in small doses once the organization is big enough to need a few "big guns" who are simply remote consultants on tap, but at least the beginning days of the organization, while everyone is still finding their way, the bulk of the organization's tech support would have to be done by one team under one roof. This is the only way to ensure that they communicate with one another and that the developers also working on the premises can see first-hand which issues are the most pressing ones for technical support. I'd also expect the tech support team to put some time into hacking on the tech support computing infrastructure itself, essentially building their own tools for supporting the whole mess as they go along, and that takes a team which can periodically meet face-to-face to plan strategy. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 5 08:18:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA11435 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 08:18:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw3.pacbell.net (mail-gw3.pacbell.net [206.13.28.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA11421 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 08:18:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-1-192.snfc21.pacbell.net [206.170.1.192]) by mail-gw3.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id IAA29143; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 08:18:47 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: "phil grainger" , Subject: tech support structure Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 08:10:59 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd9094$25c3f240$c001aace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >No, I think it would basically require some sane, reasonable manager >who could handle the personnel issues and day-to-day minutiae of most of the WC secretaries that we paid $6 to $14 hour did this. well. >running an office of tech support people while also having enough ? >technical savvy to know how to balance the loads. That means nobody >currently employed, and most definitely no one who's ever been we almost hired soren. stupid of us not to. this is really two different functions you describe: secretary and tech manager. >> does the medical insurance cover workers outside the immediate >> geographical region? > >You would specifically not employ people under that model (unless they actually, i Would like to employ people under that model. working for freebsd should be like a regular company when it comes to benefits, but per-job for salary. the benefits graduate in and out. a insurance policy that pays cash should exist. it might even be attractive if we have lots of people where medical care is cheap. i want to outsource as much as possible. Walnut Creek is fine for some outsourcing, but should they build a tech support department? who is going to fund that? who is going to pay the loss or gain the profit? freebsd doesn't have any money right now, not this kind of money. i see leasing an office with nice furniture, doing a wide hiring scan for secretaries and an accountant. stop. invest the rest of the money in mutual funds. have empty suites for programmers that want to move in. free food in the refrigerator. >were only the most occasional and provable contractors) for exactly >this reason, another being that "remote support" is really not >something which actually works in practice as nicely and conveniently i know. >as it may appear on paper. Perhaps it's something which could prove >workable in small doses once the organization is big enough to need a >few "big guns" who are simply remote consultants on tap, but at least i see the cheaper people being more cost effective to out-source. the techs might get paid high per minute wages (based on the phone records and self-reports and some boundary conditions), provided with benefits and pager or cell phone. they have to check in to a software dispatcher periodically to be on call for work. they are graded on their reliability when on call and their response time when called. 10% of pay scale. longevity 10%. ability 10%. ? then they call the customer, so we need a comprehensive phone contract. there's a call-back, but some goal should be monitored and established. centralized customer feedback polling. then, the techs lobby for traveling, when we can't find someone close to visit, with negotiated expenses paid. so that would be fun. i'd like to keep the labor G&A at around 2%, not 15 or 30%. what do you think about free education as a benefit? >the beginning days of the organization, while everyone is still >finding their way, the bulk of the organization's tech support would >have to be done by one team under one roof. This is the only way to that's the way it's always been done, mostly. but the phone system *could* ring numbers outside of the building, with a little programming. [is there a Nortel Meridan Option 11 programmer out there? >ensure that they communicate with one another and that the developers >also working on the premises can see first-hand which issues are the >most pressing ones for technical support. I'd also expect the tech hasn't this data been gathered for years? ok, i have freebsd on my other hard disk and i can't get it to work right. so people need a second computer from gateway with freebsd proloaded and perfectly set up. this deal should be doable. 1000 units / m 200000 revenue 25k profit. freebsd, inc should get a good cheap gateway and send it around then send it back. >support team to put some time into hacking on the tech support >computing infrastructure itself, essentially building their own tools >for supporting the whole mess as they go along, and that takes a team >which can periodically meet face-to-face to plan strategy. yes. i like the virtual organization. it would be cool if we could roll out a global support network. -jack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 5 08:43:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA15955 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 08:43:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA15929 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 08:43:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA29704; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 08:43:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: "Jack Velte" cc: "phil grainger" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: tech support structure In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 05 Jun 1998 08:10:59 PDT." <01bd9094$25c3f240$c001aace@eliot.pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 08:43:04 -0700 Message-ID: <29700.897061384@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > most of the WC secretaries that we paid $6 to $14 hour did this. well. I was looking for more qualified personnel than that. It's one thing to support joe bloggs, the CD customer, and another to support a full-blown ISP. They're just not the same thing and you should go put in some time at an ISP if you'd like to see what they really have to deal with day to day. It's instructive. > yes. i like the virtual organization. Erm, actually, we disagree pretty fundamentally on that point. I don't want tech-support on tap, I want butts on seats until at least the whole concept has been shaken out and refined enough to support truely remote resources. There are too many benefits to working in close proximity, especially when the problem is new and somewhat undefined, to give it up for an illusion of greater efficiency. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 5 09:31:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA23039 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 09:31:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from huron.nvl.virginia.edu (adrian@huron.nvl.Virginia.EDU [128.143.244.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA22702 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 09:30:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@nvl.virginia.edu) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by huron.nvl.virginia.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA12227; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 12:29:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 12:29:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrian Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Greg Lehey cc: Jack Velte , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Linux is UNIX, and FreeBSD is not?" In-Reply-To: <19980605095731.P768@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 5 Jun 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Thu, 4 June 1998 at 14:02:12 -0700, Jack Velte wrote: > >> On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Oliver Fromme wrote: > >> > >>>> From a technical point of view, I'd say that FreeBSD is > >>> certainly more "unixish" than Linux, given the fact that it > >>> is derived from 4.4BSD, while Linux is basically a complete > >>> rewrite (and besides: it is GNU, and "GNU's Not UNIX" ;-). > >>> Needless to say, I'm worried that one day Linux can be > >>> legally called a UNIX system, while FreeBSD (still) cannot. > > > > is anyone working on this issue? did i hear someone > > volunteer jordan? uh. would someone else like to > > work on it? > > We discussed this a while back. We decided that UNIX 98% validation > was counterproductive. Counterproductive because it would drain away from primary development, or was there another reason? While the standards are kind of bogus in most respects, they have their advantages. Adrian -- adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 5 11:57:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA20371 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:57:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xcf.berkeley.edu (scam.XCF.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA20340 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:56:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nordwick@scam.xcf.berkeley.edu) Received: (qmail 2358 invoked from network); 5 Jun 1998 18:58:38 -0000 Received: from ip95.san-francisco22.ca.pub-ip.psi.net (HELO scam.xcf.berkeley.edu) (38.28.60.95) by scam.xcf.berkeley.edu with SMTP; 5 Jun 1998 18:58:38 -0000 Message-ID: <35783E5A.EAF3AF9F@scam.xcf.berkeley.edu> Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 11:52:10 -0700 From: Jason Nordwick X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Linux is UNIX, and FreeBSD is not?" References: <199806041128.NAA20861@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Oliver Fromme wrote: > > http://www.UNIX-systems.org/what_is_unix/flavors_of_unix.html > Take from this link: What about BSDI? SDI is an independent company that markets products derived from the Berkeley Systems Distribution (BSD), developed at the University of California at Berkeley in the 60's and 70's. It is the operating system of choice for many Internet service providers. It is, as with Linux, not a UNIX system, though in this case there is a common code heritage if one looks far enough back in history. Is this true? Do you really have to look "far" back to see where the code comes from? What was considered "UNIX"? All the AT&T code? How about SVR4, is this the mailine of UNIX proper? If so, then how do they say that BSD is also not in the mailine of UNIX? Just brushing up on my history. Jay -- 4.4 > 95 http://www.xcf.berkeley.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 5 16:08:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA07294 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 16:08:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lituussun (mail.ladapt.org [195.25.51.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA07250 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 16:08:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@smtp.wanadoo.fr) Received: from (sequoia.lituus.fr) [193.252.217.31] by lituussun with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0yi6UK-0001Kq-00; Sat, 6 Jun 1998 01:05:39 +0100 Received: (from root@localhost) by sequoia.lituus.fr (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA00928; Sat, 6 Jun 1998 01:04:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from root) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 01:04:04 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <199806052304.BAA00928@sequoia.lituus.fr> From: Stephane Legrand MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Linux is UNIX, and FreeBSD is not?" In-Reply-To: <19980605095731.P768@freebie.lemis.com> References: <01bd8ffc$0bac1740$f820aace@eliot.pacbell.net> <19980605095731.P768@freebie.lemis.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greg Lehey writes: > On Thu, 4 June 1998 at 14:02:12 -0700, Jack Velte wrote: > >> On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Oliver Fromme wrote: > >> > >>> As we probably all know, neither FreeBSD nor Linux can be > >>> legally called a "UNIX system" [*1]. However, this might > >>> change in the future, as far as Linux is concerned: > >>> > >>> http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/980529/uniforum_a_2.html > >>> > >>> That article essentially says that there are efforts -- > >>> supported by The Open Group -- to get Linux the "UNIX98" > >>> brand. > >>> > >>>> From a technical point of view, I'd say that FreeBSD is > >>> certainly more "unixish" than Linux, given the fact that it > >>> is derived from 4.4BSD, while Linux is basically a complete > >>> rewrite (and besides: it is GNU, and "GNU's Not UNIX" ;-). > >>> Needless to say, I'm worried that one day Linux can be > >>> legally called a UNIX system, while FreeBSD (still) cannot. > > > > is anyone working on this issue? did i hear someone > > volunteer jordan? uh. would someone else like to > > work on it? > > We discussed this a while back. We decided that UNIX 98% validation > was counterproductive. > But if Linux finally get this validation, could/should this decision be reconsidered ? And did FreeBSD (stable and/or current) have a good chance to obtain this kind of validation in a technical point of view ? Stephane Legrand. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 5 17:55:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA24057 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 17:55:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA24048 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 17:55:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id KAA08757; Sat, 6 Jun 1998 10:25:23 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980606102523.K768@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 10:25:23 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Adrian Filipi-Martin Cc: Jack Velte , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Linux is UNIX, and FreeBSD is not?" References: <19980605095731.P768@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Adrian Filipi-Martin on Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 12:29:51PM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 5 June 1998 at 12:29:51 -0400, Adrian Filipi-Martin wrote: > On Fri, 5 Jun 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> On Thu, 4 June 1998 at 14:02:12 -0700, Jack Velte wrote: >>>> On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Oliver Fromme wrote: >>>> >>>>>> From a technical point of view, I'd say that FreeBSD is >>>>> certainly more "unixish" than Linux, given the fact that it >>>>> is derived from 4.4BSD, while Linux is basically a complete >>>>> rewrite (and besides: it is GNU, and "GNU's Not UNIX" ;-). >>>>> Needless to say, I'm worried that one day Linux can be >>>>> legally called a UNIX system, while FreeBSD (still) cannot. >>> >>> is anyone working on this issue? did i hear someone >>> volunteer jordan? uh. would someone else like to >>> work on it? >> >> We discussed this a while back. We decided that UNIX 98% validation >> was counterproductive. > > Counterproductive because it would drain away from primary > development, or was there another reason? While the standards are kind of > bogus in most respects, they have their advantages. My recollection was that UNIX 98% was designed to be more compatible with other operating systems and less compatible with UNIX. I don't know about UNIX 98%, but the previous version, UNIX 95%, was attained by Microsoft NT and IBM OS/390. I can't put my finger on the messages, but the general feeling was that FreeBSD would be less effective if it were to adhere to UNIX 98%. There was also a considerable amount of money involved. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 5 19:09:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA03383 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 19:09:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA03367 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 19:08:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id LAA08934; Sat, 6 Jun 1998 11:38:56 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980606113856.S768@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 11:38:56 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Jason Nordwick , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Linux is UNIX, and FreeBSD is not?" References: <199806041128.NAA20861@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> <35783E5A.EAF3AF9F@scam.xcf.berkeley.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <35783E5A.EAF3AF9F@scam.xcf.berkeley.edu>; from Jason Nordwick on Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 11:52:10AM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 5 June 1998 at 11:52:10 -0700, Jason Nordwick wrote: > Oliver Fromme wrote: >> >> http://www.UNIX-systems.org/what_is_unix/flavors_of_unix.html >> > > Take from this link: > > What about BSDI? > > BSDI is an independent company that markets products derived from > the Berkeley Systems Distribution (BSD), developed at the University > of California at Berkeley in the 60's and 70's. It is the operating > system of choice for many Internet service providers. It is, as with > Linux, not a UNIX system, though in this case there is a common code > heritage if one looks far enough back in history. > > Just brushing up on my history. I've taken a look at these web pages, and I think you've chosen the wrong place. In particular http://www.UNIX-systems.org/images/chronology_big.gif is *very* inaccurate. You'll notice that 4.4BSD doesn't even figure. The green bar at the bottom ("Single UNIX Specification") gives it the lie: they're rewriting history to suit their commercial objectives. A much better overview is on page 5 and 6 of "The Design and Implementation of the 4.4BSD [UNIX] System". This book shows FreeBSD and BSDI as being very much part of the UNIX family tree. There's also an overview (from "The Design and Implementation of the 4.3BSD UNIX System") at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/Images/unixtimeline.gif, and somewhere somebody else has tried a more modern version. To your questions: > Is this true? It's not completely false. > Do you really have to look "far" back to see where the code comes > from? That depends on what you call "far". The last version of BSD that was allowed to be called UNIX was probably 4.3BSD/Reno, about 1990. The next version, Net/2, was free and thus couldn't be called UNIX. BSD/386, now called BSD/OS, was created in 1991. FreeBSD was created (out of 386BSD) in 1993. > What was considered "UNIX"? Depends on the time. Mainly, the subject of a UNIX license. > All the AT&T code? How about SVR4, is this the mailine of UNIX > proper? I suppose it's the favourite son, anyway. > If so, then how do they say that BSD is also not in the mailine of > UNIX? I don't understand the question. BSD is the older, more generous son who gave his all to System V and was then disowned. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 5 22:24:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA24130 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 22:24:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA24111 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 22:24:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA03621; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 22:24:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Stephane Legrand cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Linux is UNIX, and FreeBSD is not?" In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 06 Jun 1998 01:04:04 +0200." <199806052304.BAA00928@sequoia.lituus.fr> Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 22:24:36 -0700 Message-ID: <3617.897110676@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > But if Linux finally get this validation, could/should this decision be > reconsidered ? > > And did FreeBSD (stable and/or current) have a good chance to obtain > this kind of validation in a technical point of view ? If the validation process is both A) Free and B) does not require a lot of someone's valuable time, then sure. Otherwise I think it's a mark of rapidly diminishing worth, especially now that "Unix" is actually more of a dirty word in various circles what with Microsoft's marketing campaign against it (anyone see Dell's anti-Unix advert in the now-subverted Unix Review magazine?) and the work of various other NT booster groups. Those who are left who still believe in Unix, you find, are people who believe in the Unix *concept* and could truly give a fig about the brand itself. The brand was something you used to use to convince clueless suits, but the clueless suits have already been told that "Unix is bad" by their various Microsoft yes-men and yes-magazines and this just isn't as valuable anymore. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message