From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 8 02:37:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA22323 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 02:37:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp05.wxs.nl (smtp05.wxs.nl [195.121.6.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA22318 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 02:37:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from chronias.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.59.121]) by smtp05.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA5A5D; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 10:37:11 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199811080609.AAA24597@nospam.hiwaay.net> Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 11:41:11 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: David Kelly Subject: Re: "Eek" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 08-Nov-98 David Kelly wrote: > Anyone porting FreeBSD (or Perl) to the HP-41C yet? Think these guys at > http://dd.sh/perlfs/ could be inspired? Be serious about PerlOS ;) http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd is the place to be =) --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl Junior Network/Security Specialist *BSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 8 04:37:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA08115 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 04:37:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA08108 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 04:37:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id HAA24226 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 07:37:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 07:37:31 -0500 (EST) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Now THIS would be a cool port! :-) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Cracking DES and RSA keys might be fun for a while but THIS is WAY cool, this should be a port :-) ftp://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/pub/seti@home/ The home page for it is at http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/ Chris -- "You both seem to be ignoring the fact that the networking market is driven by so-called 'IT professionals' these days, most of whom can't tell the difference between an ARP and a carp." --Wes Peters ===================================| Open Systems FreeBSD Consulting. FreeBSD 3.0 is available now! | Phone: (402)573-9124 / ICQ # 20016186 -----------------------------------| 3335 N. 103 Plaza, Omaha, NE 68134 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting, Network Engineering, Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 8 07:40:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA21430 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 07:40:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA21415 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 07:40:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA16679; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 09:39:52 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 09:39:52 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: Open Systems Networking cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Now THIS would be a cool port! :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 8 Nov 1998, Open Systems Networking wrote: > > Cracking DES and RSA keys might be fun for a while but THIS is WAY cool, > this should be a port :-) > > ftp://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/pub/seti@home/ > > The home page for it is at http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/ > > Chris > This doesn't really need to be ported, unless you mean building one for the ports/packages system. Simply download sh_unix_1.6.tar.gz and do this : Comment out these two lines like so: #CC = gcc -Wall -O6 -g -I$(ZLIB_DIR) -DHAVE_ZLIB #CLIBS = -L$(ZLIB_DIR) -lz -lm -lsocket -lnsl then add these three : # FreeBSD CC = gcc -Wall -O6 -g -DHAVE_ZLIB CLIBS = -lz -lm and it will compile nicely. If you don't have zlib installed, you probably need to install it, as it doesn't seem to compile without it :) [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/ ] [ IrcNick : Licia ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] [ Why crawl through windows when you can walk through a door? ] [ This user boycotts all Microsoft products and services ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 8 11:24:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA10538 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 11:24:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.27.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA10474 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 11:24:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA06577; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 11:23:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19981108112343.B6559@mooseriver.com> Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 11:23:44 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Nov. BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) Meeting Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group -- BAFUG -- The Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group (BAFUG) will be holding it's monthly meeting on Thursday, November 12th. This months meeting will be held at The Silicon Reef in the Mission district of San Francisco. The meeting will start at 7:30 pm. Agenda: ==> Greg Sutter and Josef Grosch will tag-team on the topic of using FreeBSD to setup a home network. ==> Nicole Harrington and Josef Grosch will talk about their plans for the upcoming Install-A-Thon to be held on November 28th at the Robert Austin Computer show at the Cow Palace in Daly City. This Install-a-thon will be held jointly with BALUG (Bay Area Linux Users Group) and CABAL (Consortium of All Bay Area Linux) See http://www.bafug.org/Install.html for more details including directions on how to get to the Cow Palace. ==> bafug.org is off and running! Thanks to Jan Koum and Nicole Harrington. The FreeBSD Retail page and Counter page have been moved to this site. Suggestions are welcome. ==> Donations of hardware are needed to build BAFUG a test machine for use at the Install-a-thons. ==> Pizza and Soda will be ordered and the hat will be passed `round. ==> Of course, we will have the usually kvetchen about sundry topics Location: This months meeting will be held at the Silicon Reef in San Francisco. The Silicon Reef is located at 3057 17th St, between Folsom & Harrison Streets. There is plenty parking on the street. Time: The meeting starts at 7:30ish with pizza showing up around 7:15ish. The meeting will end at around 10:00pm which will allow for an hour or so to shmooz. We generally get kicked out around 11:00 pm. Directions: By Muni: Routes 12 Folsom, 22 Fillmore, 33 Stanyan, and 53 Southern Heights stop nearby. By BART: Exit at 16th Street Mission, walk south to 17th Street, turning left (east) and proceeding 4 1/2 short blocks to 3057 17th Street, on the right (south) side. By Car: From the South Bay and Peninsula Take 101 North to San Francisco, Get off at Vermont Ave. exit. Turn left twice on to Mariposa westbound under the freeway. Proceed eight blocks to a right (north) turn onto Harrison where Mariposa dead-ends. Go one block to a left (west) turn onto 17th Street. Proceed about one full block, and park where you can. From the East Bay: Come across the Bay bridge (I-80 westbound) and get off at the 8th street exit, bearing half-left onto Harrison, proceeding nine blocks (curving half-left as Harrison turns southbound and goes under US-101) to a right (west) turn onto 17th Street. Proceed about one full block, and park where you can. From the North Bay: Come across the Golden Gate bridge. Follow 101 which turns into Lombard Stree. At Van Ness Ave. turn right. Continue south on Van Ness until 17th st. Take a left on to 17th. Park where you can. WWW info: More info can be found at the following URLs http://www.arachna.com/freebsd/freebsd-sf.html http://www.reef.com http://www.freebsd-support.com http://www.bafug.org/Install.html Contact: Please contact either Ian Kallen, Nicole Harrington, or Josef Grosch on or before October 8th so we can have a basic idea of how much pizza, soda, and coffee we will need. Ian Kallen can be reached at ian@gamespot.com Nicole Harrington can be reached at nicole@mediacity.com Josef Grosch can be reached at jgrosch@MooseRiver.com -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 8 15:37:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA07358 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 15:37:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA07351 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 15:36:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA08912; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:06:42 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id KAA07526; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:06:40 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981109100640.Z499@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:06:40 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: jobs@freebsd.org References: <199811082136.OAA16293@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199811082136.OAA16293@usr08.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 09:36:56PM +0000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [following up to -chat. This isn't a -current topic by any stretch of the imagination] On Sunday, 8 November 1998 at 21:36:56 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > I think there needs to be a new list, "jobs@freebsd.org", for > companies looking for people to send job listings to. > > Whistle is currently looking for a couple of people, and it's > really hard to identify FreeBSD capable people who are interested > in being "looked for". > > There are the pages where people who want to do consulting > advertise themselves, but no place where a company who wants > full time employees can put up a sign. > > What's missing is a community contact point, and I think that > jobs@freebsd.org would be a good place for people to self-select > themselves into the community. > > Anyone else think this is a good idea? Great idea! You even got the name right. I think the list has been there for about 3 years. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 8 20:33:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA07496 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 20:33:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA07491; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 20:33:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA05739; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 21:33:07 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd005692; Sun Nov 8 21:33:03 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA14242; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 21:33:02 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199811090433.VAA14242@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: "Eek" To: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 04:33:02 +0000 (GMT) Cc: mike@seidata.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?=" at Nov 6, 98 11:26:21 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > http://dd.sh/perlfs/ > > Great... when will FreeBSD implement this? ;-P > > Never, I hope. There is a proverb about hammers and nails which has > often been invoked for Perl; it is particularly pertinent to this > situation. You mean the one that goes: "If the only tool you have is PERL, everything looks like a thumb..." ? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 9 01:20:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA03540 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 01:20:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA03525 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 01:20:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.Stanford.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA18391; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 01:18:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 01:18:13 -0800 (PST) From: Annelise Anderson To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Open Systems Networking , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? In-Reply-To: <11321.910454155@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 7 Nov 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I notied the xcontest page no longer is valid, is it over? who won? > > Wheres the final winners product :-) > > Nobody really entered, so it was called off. Not enough desktop interest > in FreeBSD yet, I guess. :( > > - Jordan Not quite fair--to conclude there's no interest--because the contest was suspended at least 10 days before the deadline, so people who might have participated didn't. Annelise To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 9 01:44:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA06775 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 01:44:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA06762 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 01:44:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (haldjas.folklore.ee [172.17.2.1] (may be forged)) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id LAA26367; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:43:04 +0200 (EET) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:43:04 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Annelise Anderson cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Open Systems Networking , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, Annelise Anderson wrote: > > > On Sat, 7 Nov 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > I notied the xcontest page no longer is valid, is it over? who won? > > > Wheres the final winners product :-) > > > > Nobody really entered, so it was called off. Not enough desktop interest > > in FreeBSD yet, I guess. :( > > > > - Jordan > > Not quite fair--to conclude there's no interest--because the contest > was suspended at least 10 days before the deadline, so people who > might have participated didn't. > > Annelise > Same sentiment here. I barely got the look and feel right. Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 9 03:49:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA19119 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 03:49:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA18947; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 03:47:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from yggdrasil.ifi.uio.no (2602@yggdrasil.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.182]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id LAA09278; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:22:21 +0100 (MET) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by yggdrasil.ifi.uio.no ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:22:20 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: mike@seidata.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Eek" References: <199811090433.VAA14242@usr07.primenet.com> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 09 Nov 1998 11:22:19 +0100 In-Reply-To: Terry Lambert's message of "Mon, 9 Nov 1998 04:33:02 +0000 (GMT)" Message-ID: Lines: 13 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id DAA19096 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > > Never, I hope. There is a proverb about hammers and nails which has > > often been invoked for Perl; it is particularly pertinent to this > > situation. > You mean the one that goes: > > "If the only tool you have is PERL, everything looks like a thumb..." Uh, yeah, something like that :) DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 9 06:12:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA05848 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 06:12:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA05842 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 06:12:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA03016; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:12:07 +0100 (CET) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA10782; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:12:06 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19981109151206.03721@follo.net> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:12:06 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: Terry Lambert , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_C=2E_Sm=F8rgrav?= Cc: mike@seidata.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Eek" References: <199811090433.VAA14242@usr07.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199811090433.VAA14242@usr07.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 04:33:02AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 04:33:02AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > http://dd.sh/perlfs/ > > > Great... when will FreeBSD implement this? ;-P > > > > Never, I hope. There is a proverb about hammers and nails which has > > often been invoked for Perl; it is particularly pertinent to this > > situation. > > You mean the one that goes: > > "If the only tool you have is PERL, everything looks like a thumb..." > > ? This is a misquotation (though you may be aware of it, it is not certain the readers are.) The correct quotation is 'If your tool is C++, then everything looks like a thumb." I unfortunately don't remember the original author, and have lost my quotes collection that that was in :-( Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 9 06:21:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA06709 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 06:21:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA06675 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 06:20:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from sida.ifi.uio.no (2602@sida.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.152]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with SMTP id PAA25685; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:17:52 +0100 (MET) Received: from localhost (dag-erli@localhost) by sida.ifi.uio.no ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 14:17:47 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Eivind Eklund Cc: Terry Lambert , "Dag-Erling C. Smørgrav" , mike@seidata.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Eek" References: <199811090433.VAA14242@usr07.primenet.com> <19981109151206.03721@follo.net> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 09 Nov 1998 15:17:44 +0100 In-Reply-To: Eivind Eklund's message of "Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:12:06 +0100" Message-ID: Lines: 15 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id GAA06705 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eivind Eklund writes: > On Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 04:33:02AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > "If the only tool you have is PERL, everything looks like a thumb..." > This is a misquotation (though you may be aware of it, it is not > certain the readers are.) The correct quotation is 'If your tool is > C++, then everything looks like a thumb." I unfortunately don't > remember the original author, and have lost my quotes collection that > that was in :-( The one I originally referred to is "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail". DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 9 06:51:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA09834 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 06:51:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamefish.pcola.gulf.net (gamefish.pcola.gulf.net [198.69.72.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA09803 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 06:51:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from psalzman@gamefish.pcola.gulf.net) Received: from localhost (psalzman@localhost) by gamefish.pcola.gulf.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA07940; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 14:50:45 GMT (envelope-from psalzman@gamefish.pcola.gulf.net) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 14:50:45 +0000 (GMT) From: Phillip Salzman To: Annelise Anderson cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Open Systems Networking , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Not quite fair--to conclude there's no interest--because the contest > was suspended at least 10 days before the deadline, so people who > might have participated didn't. > > Annelise Close, except we suspended the contest the first time the day after the deadline. At this point we recieved three entries, one of which was invalid. It was decided to restart the contest along with the release of 3.0-RELEASE. This would serve as a special kick-off party for it if you say... the day of the release, it was cancelled. It could be said we should of let it last longer, to see if we got a final product that was worthy. I admit that. In the ashes of the contest, we still need a better default configuration for X. We are still limited with twm. I propose we start a ``BSD X Development Enviornment'' which will include cheezy frontends to your favorite networking tools, etc. The suggestion you told me of using TK may actually be one of our biggest choices, but I feel obligated to keep it away from that because of the many differences between versions. This could break anything we create after a newer version is released. Would any of you be interested in starting something like this? We would need a couple of developers with some experience in programming for X11. I would like to keep it C, but TK will probally be fine.. -- Phillip Salzman "Some die old, others never grow up..." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 9 07:02:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA12709 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 07:02:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from tibatong.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (tibatong.ihf.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA12534 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 07:01:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tg@tibatong.ihf.rwth-aachen.de) Received: (from tg@localhost) by tibatong.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA19524; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:59:48 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from tg) To: Phillip Salzman Cc: Annelise Anderson , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Open Systems Networking , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Thomas Gellekum Date: 09 Nov 1998 15:59:48 +0100 In-Reply-To: Phillip Salzman's message of "Mon, 09 Nov 1998 14:50:45 +0000 (GMT)" Message-ID: <87hfw8gbdn.fsf@tibatong.ihf.rwth-aachen.de> Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.34/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Phillip Salzman writes: > In the ashes of the contest, we still need a better default > configuration for X. We are still limited with twm. I propose we start > a ``BSD X Development Enviornment'' which will include cheezy frontends to > your favorite networking tools, etc. The suggestion you told me of using xterm and an editor. It's all there already. tg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 9 07:52:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA18106 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 07:52:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA18101 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 07:52:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id CAA00627; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 02:51:18 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19981110025114.26979@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 02:51:14 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Phillip Salzman Cc: Annelise Anderson , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Open Systems Networking , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Phillip Salzman on Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 02:50:45PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 02:50:45PM +0000, Phillip Salzman wrote: > > > > Not quite fair--to conclude there's no interest--because the contest > > was suspended at least 10 days before the deadline, so people who > > might have participated didn't. > > > > Annelise > > > Close, except we suspended the contest the first time the day > after the deadline. At this point we recieved three entries, one of which > was invalid. It was decided to restart the contest along with the release > of 3.0-RELEASE. This would serve as a special kick-off party for it if > you say... the day of the release, it was cancelled. Hmm, I wasn't aware of this story. I heard about the start by accident, and didn't realise it had been restarted or cancelled. > It could be said we should of let it last longer, to see if we > got a final product that was worthy. I admit that. > > In the ashes of the contest, we still need a better default > configuration for X. We are still limited with twm. I propose we start > a ``BSD X Development Enviornment'' which will include cheezy frontends to > your favorite networking tools, etc. The suggestion you told me of using > TK may actually be one of our biggest choices, but I feel obligated to > keep it away from that because of the many differences between versions. > This could break anything we create after a newer version is released. > > Would any of you be interested in starting something like this? > We would need a couple of developers with some experience in programming > for X11. I would like to keep it C, but TK will probally be fine.. That counts me out. I don't even know what you're talking about :-( But I never needed a contest to make it worth creating a .fvwm2rc and a meta-package to install a few of the basics that it uses. All I needed the contest for was to give someone the incentive to write some easy instructions on how to put it all together, and a few ideas of what to include without going overboard. Now they've disappeared. A how-to has a permanent benefit to the reader, a sure thing, much more incentive than a remote chance to win a prize, in my book at least. If what I do is of use to one other person, that's a bonus. Don't big things grow from little things? -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 9 09:40:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA28159 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 09:40:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamefish.pcola.gulf.net (gamefish.pcola.gulf.net [198.69.72.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA28152 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 09:40:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from psalzman@gamefish.pcola.gulf.net) Received: from localhost (psalzman@localhost) by gamefish.pcola.gulf.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA08832; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 17:39:30 GMT (envelope-from psalzman@gamefish.pcola.gulf.net) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 17:39:30 +0000 (GMT) From: Phillip Salzman To: Thomas Gellekum cc: Annelise Anderson , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Open Systems Networking , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env In-Reply-To: <87hfw8gbdn.fsf@tibatong.ihf.rwth-aachen.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org i said ``better'' not what we already have :) On 9 Nov 1998, Thomas Gellekum wrote: > Phillip Salzman writes: > > > In the ashes of the contest, we still need a better default > > configuration for X. We are still limited with twm. I propose we start > > a ``BSD X Development Enviornment'' which will include cheezy frontends to > > your favorite networking tools, etc. The suggestion you told me of using > > xterm and an editor. It's all there already. > > tg > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 9 10:00:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA00722 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:00:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA00712 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:00:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.Stanford.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA19707; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 09:57:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 09:57:25 -0800 (PST) From: Annelise Anderson To: Phillip Salzman cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Open Systems Networking , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, Phillip Salzman wrote: > > > > Not quite fair--to conclude there's no interest--because the contest > > was suspended at least 10 days before the deadline, so people who > > might have participated didn't. > > > > Annelise > > > Close, except we suspended the contest the first time the day > after the deadline. At this point we recieved three entries, one of which > was invalid. It was decided to restart the contest along with the release > of 3.0-RELEASE. This would serve as a special kick-off party for it if > you say... the day of the release, it was cancelled. Not really. At the time you suspended it, the deadline had already been extended. The original deadline was therefore not in effect. At least, this is what I recall. > > It could be said we should of let it last longer, to see if we > got a final product that was worthy. I admit that. Nope, you should have kept the original deadline, given away the prizes you promised, and moved on. > > In the ashes of the contest, we still need a better default > configuration for X. We are still limited with twm. I propose we start It is astonishing to me that FreeBSD continues to ship with a two default shells that are not good for interactive use and an out-of-date window manager, and remains relatively difficult to get up and running in critical areas, specifically graphics, printing, sound, and communica- tions. Annelise > a ``BSD X Development Enviornment'' which will include cheezy frontends to > your favorite networking tools, etc. The suggestion you told me of using > TK may actually be one of our biggest choices, but I feel obligated to > keep it away from that because of the many differences between versions. > This could break anything we create after a newer version is released. > > Would any of you be interested in starting something like this? > We would need a couple of developers with some experience in programming > for X11. I would like to keep it C, but TK will probally be fine.. > > -- > Phillip Salzman > "Some die old, others never grow up..." > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 9 10:45:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA05612 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:45:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA05607 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:45:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA07823; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 09:44:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Annelise Anderson cc: Phillip Salzman , Open Systems Networking , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 09 Nov 1998 09:57:25 PST." Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 09:44:16 -0800 Message-ID: <7819.910633456@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Nope, you should have kept the original deadline, given away the > prizes you promised, and moved on. That would have been silly, however, since we'd only received 2 valid entries and neither of them was something I'd have even published. The goal of the contest was to get better default themes for FreeBSD's out-of-box configuration, as you'll hopefully recall, and we never received anything for the contest which had even the remotest hope of qualifying for this. I think to even call the first two entries "entries" is a real stretch since they were more experimental "what do you guys think of this? something along these lines?" material than anything else and it would probably be more correct to call them "attempts." Perhaps if we'd continued the contest for another 6 months, we'd have eventually collected 3 entries which merited any sort of prize but by then I also suspect that everyone would have forgotten just what the hell we were doing it for. :-) Seriously, it may look bad to admit it but the fact is simply indisputable that FreeBSD's interest in the desktop contest was marginal to non-existent and everyone had MORE than enough time to get their entries in, even before the first suspension. The deadline was set 3 months in advance of the first announcement and I didn't exactly see a rush for people to get their entries in. > It is astonishing to me that FreeBSD continues to ship with a two > default shells that are not good for interactive use and an out-of-date > window manager, and remains relatively difficult to get up and running > in critical areas, specifically graphics, printing, sound, and communica- > tions. Not so astonishing - it's quite clear by these results that the number of people who actually CARE about this must be very small indeed. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 9 12:06:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA15158 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 12:06:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pluto.plutotech.com (mail.plutotech.com [206.168.67.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA15151 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 12:06:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kelly@plutotech.com) Received: from plutotech.com (tampopo.plutotech.com [206.168.67.161]) by pluto.plutotech.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA27882; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 13:05:16 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36474AFB.63205D71@plutotech.com> Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 13:05:15 -0700 From: Sean Kelly Organization: Pluto Technologies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Phillip Salzman CC: Annelise Anderson , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Open Systems Networking , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Close, except we suspended the contest the first time the day > after the deadline. At this point we recieved three entries, one of which > was invalid. Sounds like one of the two valid entries wins a disk drive, then. Let's hope s/he doesn't sue for it. --Sean To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 9 12:09:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA15495 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 12:09:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gutenberg.uoregon.edu (gutenberg.uoregon.edu [128.223.56.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA15482 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 12:09:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sharding@gutenberg.uoregon.edu) Received: from localhost (sharding@localhost) by gutenberg.uoregon.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA01787; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 12:12:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 12:12:50 -0800 From: Sean Harding Reply-To: Sean Harding To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Annelise Anderson , Phillip Salzman , Open Systems Networking , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env In-Reply-To: <7819.910633456@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Not so astonishing - it's quite clear by these results that the number > of people who actually CARE about this must be very small indeed. Because the rest of them were discouraged and went to Linux or back to Windows. It's really a matter of looking at which directions you want the FreeBSD development to move in. sean To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 9 12:18:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA16655 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 12:18:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pluto.plutotech.com (mail.plutotech.com [206.168.67.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA16644 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 12:18:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kelly@plutotech.com) Received: from plutotech.com (tampopo.plutotech.com [206.168.67.161]) by pluto.plutotech.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA28575; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 13:17:37 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36474DDE.C16A0045@plutotech.com> Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 13:17:35 -0700 From: Sean Kelly Organization: Pluto Technologies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: Annelise Anderson , Phillip Salzman , Open Systems Networking , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env References: <7819.910633456@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > That would have been silly, however, since we'd only received 2 valid > entries and neither of them was something I'd have even published. Hmmm. If quality wasn't one of the metrics of the contest, then it definitely should've been/should be. (Don't remember if it was.) I remember when redhat.com was just an ISDN line to some guy's house in Florida, and screenshots of his user interfaces looked, well, really damn good. Is that all it took to get redhat to take off? Is that all it will take for FreeBSD? > Seriously, it may look bad to admit it but the fact is simply > indisputable that FreeBSD's interest in the desktop contest was > marginal to non-existent and everyone had MORE than enough time to get > their entries in, even before the first suspension. Time? I wish that were true. I've been working off and on on a starting desktop for FreeBSD that includes a system administration tool for about a year now, even before you announced the contest. The contest naturally bolstered my desire to get it done, but with two consulting jobs plus fulltime work here at Pluto, it just wasn't going to happen. Even owning just *one* cat takes some time out of the day! :-) > Not so astonishing - it's quite clear by these results that the number > of people who actually CARE about this must be very small indeed. You're probably right. Well, when I get this desktop stuff done, I'll submit it anyway---contest or no. Take care. --Sean To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 9 13:23:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA24480 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 13:23:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamefish.pcola.gulf.net (gamefish.pcola.gulf.net [198.69.72.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA24474 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 13:23:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from psalzman@gamefish.pcola.gulf.net) Received: from localhost (psalzman@localhost) by gamefish.pcola.gulf.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA10247; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 21:22:25 GMT (envelope-from psalzman@gamefish.pcola.gulf.net) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 21:22:25 +0000 (GMT) From: Phillip Salzman To: Annelise Anderson cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Open Systems Networking , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > It is astonishing to me that FreeBSD continues to ship with a two > default shells that are not good for interactive use and an out-of-date > window manager, and remains relatively difficult to get up and running > in critical areas, specifically graphics, printing, sound, and communica- > tions. The default shells are because of an attempt to keep ``standard''. Although, I believe we should also include tcsh or bash... but I think they are under GPL license. Well, I think bash is. -- Phillip Salzman To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 9 13:48:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA26457 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 13:48:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA26434 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 13:47:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id IAA01965; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:47:31 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19981110084727.55542@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:47:27 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Annelise Anderson , Phillip Salzman , Open Systems Networking , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env References: <7819.910633456@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <7819.910633456@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 09:44:16AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 09:44:16AM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > It is astonishing to me that FreeBSD continues to ship with a two > > default shells that are not good for interactive use and an out-of-date > > window manager, and remains relatively difficult to get up and running > > in critical areas, specifically graphics, printing, sound, and communica- > > tions. > > Not so astonishing - it's quite clear by these results that the number > of people who actually CARE about this must be very small indeed. To be more precise, the number of people who both care and know how to do something about it must be very small indeed. It is equally possible that these groups are both large, but do not overlap. The results indicate nothing about the total number of people who care. The most helpless users probably care most, and are seen least. Give them more little ways to contribute without making it their life's work, then those who can-do will see better reasons for improving on these feeble attempts. I can't see how it could work any other way and be sustainable. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 9 14:02:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA27581 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 14:02:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from paris.dppl.com (paris.dppl.com [205.230.74.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA27563 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 14:02:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from yds@ingress.net) Received: (qmail 22213 invoked from network); 9 Nov 1998 22:02:09 -0000 Received: from ichiban.ingress.com (HELO ichiban) (205.230.64.31) by paris.dppl.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 1998 22:02:09 -0000 Message-ID: <03ca01be0c2c$9a6112e0$1f40e6cd@ichiban.ingress.com> From: "Yarema" To: Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 17:02:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The default shells are because of an attempt to keep ``standard''. >Although, I believe we should also include tcsh or bash... but I think >they are under GPL license. Well, I think bash is. But zsh is under a BSD style license and IMHO it's better than but similar enough to bash. So how about tcsh and zsh? -- Yarema To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 9 14:03:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA27865 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 14:03:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA27705 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 14:03:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id XAA25197; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 23:02:05 +0100 (MET) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 23:02:05 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Annelise Anderson Cc: Phillip Salzman , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Open Systems Networking , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env References: Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 09 Nov 1998 23:02:04 +0100 In-Reply-To: Annelise Anderson's message of "Mon, 9 Nov 1998 09:57:25 -0800 (PST)" Message-ID: Lines: 12 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id OAA27841 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Annelise Anderson writes: > It is astonishing to me that FreeBSD continues to ship with a two > default shells that are not good for interactive use and an out-of-date > window manager twm is only out of date if you have trouble hitting the correct keys on the keyboard, in which case you shouldn't be running FreeBSD in the first place DES (faithful twm user) -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 9 14:07:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA28004 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 14:05:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA27994 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 14:05:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id JAA02024; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:04:41 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19981110090436.07651@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:04:36 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Phillip Salzman Cc: Annelise Anderson , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Open Systems Networking , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Phillip Salzman on Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 09:22:25PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 09:22:25PM +0000, Phillip Salzman wrote: > > The default shells are because of an attempt to keep ``standard''. > Although, I believe we should also include tcsh or bash... but I think > they are under GPL license. Well, I think bash is. There's a few newbies and 386 users who have discovered the virtues of the plain old sh with 'set -o emacs' turned on. The one and only essential is the up arrow for command history, and I reckon that's the real reason why many of new installers wish it had bash. All the other shell features can go jump for the first few months, but command history is essential and csh doesn't cut it, not by a long shot. When it's time to learn more, it's also time to learn about scripts and what better way than to be able to use the same syntax on the command line. Why would I ever need more than sh? After nearly a year it still serves every purpose I know of, *and* the man page is more digestable. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 9 14:10:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA28593 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 14:10:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA28588 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 14:10:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.Stanford.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA20648; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 14:07:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 14:07:30 -0800 (PST) From: Annelise Anderson To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Phillip Salzman , Open Systems Networking , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env In-Reply-To: <7819.910633456@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Seriously, it may look bad to admit it but the fact is simply > indisputable that FreeBSD's interest in the desktop contest was > marginal to non-existent and everyone had MORE than enough time to get I really do hope we can persuade you that there's no evidence for this conclusion. This isn't the time to give up. How much time people were given doesn't matter if you change the deadline. There's no reason to expect anyone to send in anything more than 24 hours before a deadline. The fact that you got a couple of, essentially, inquiries is really very encouraging. Also, you don't need widespread interest, just a few capable people. Annelise To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 9 14:24:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA29901 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 14:24:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA29894 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 14:24:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA08991; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 23:24:11 +0100 (CET) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id XAA17138; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 23:24:10 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19981109232410.01531@follo.net> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 23:24:10 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: Sue Blake Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env References: <19981110090436.07651@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19981110090436.07651@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Tue, Nov 10, 1998 at 09:04:36AM +1100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Nov 10, 1998 at 09:04:36AM +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > On Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 09:22:25PM +0000, Phillip Salzman wrote: > > > > The default shells are because of an attempt to keep ``standard''. > > Although, I believe we should also include tcsh or bash... but I think > > they are under GPL license. Well, I think bash is. > > There's a few newbies and 386 users who have discovered the virtues of > the plain old sh with 'set -o emacs' turned on. The one and only > essential is the up arrow for command history, and I reckon that's the > real reason why many of new installers wish it had bash. All the other > shell features can go jump for the first few months, but command > history is essential and csh doesn't cut it, not by a long shot. > > When it's time to learn more, it's also time to learn about scripts and > what better way than to be able to use the same syntax on the command > line. Why would I ever need more than sh? After nearly a year it still > serves every purpose I know of, *and* the man page is more digestable. It lacks completion. That's the most important part. That's IMHO essential. Apart from that, I like the ability of zsh to do more advanced pattern matching, but that isn't as essential as as the lack of completion (and every shell I know of except zsh lack full completion - zsh can complete _everything_ - globs, shell escapes, history escapes, cvs - you name it, zsh can complete it :-) Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 9 15:01:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA03683 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:01:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamefish.pcola.gulf.net (gamefish.pcola.gulf.net [198.69.72.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA03678 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:01:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from psalzman@gamefish.pcola.gulf.net) Received: from localhost (psalzman@localhost) by gamefish.pcola.gulf.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA10688; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 23:01:14 GMT (envelope-from psalzman@gamefish.pcola.gulf.net) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 23:01:14 +0000 (GMT) From: Phillip Salzman To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Annelise Anderson , Open Systems Networking , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env In-Reply-To: <7819.910633456@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Seriously, it may look bad to admit it but the fact is simply > indisputable that FreeBSD's interest in the desktop contest was > marginal to non-existent and everyone had MORE than enough time to get > their entries in, even before the first suspension. The deadline was > set 3 months in advance of the first announcement and I didn't exactly > see a rush for people to get their entries in. > Several people were interested, but few were active. -- phillip To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 9 15:05:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA04073 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:05:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamefish.pcola.gulf.net (gamefish.pcola.gulf.net [198.69.72.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA04065 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:05:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from psalzman@gamefish.pcola.gulf.net) Received: from localhost (psalzman@localhost) by gamefish.pcola.gulf.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA10700; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 23:04:23 GMT (envelope-from psalzman@gamefish.pcola.gulf.net) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 23:04:23 +0000 (GMT) From: Phillip Salzman To: Sean Kelly cc: Annelise Anderson , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Open Systems Networking , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env In-Reply-To: <36474AFB.63205D71@plutotech.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org legal notice took care of that. anyway, we had three prizes, two nearly-valid entires. On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, Sean Kelly wrote: > > Close, except we suspended the contest the first time the day > > after the deadline. At this point we recieved three entries, one of which > > was invalid. > > Sounds like one of the two valid entries wins a disk drive, then. Let's > hope s/he doesn't sue for it. > > --Sean > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 9 15:10:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA04634 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:10:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamefish.pcola.gulf.net (gamefish.pcola.gulf.net [198.69.72.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA04629 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:10:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from psalzman@gamefish.pcola.gulf.net) Received: from localhost (psalzman@localhost) by gamefish.pcola.gulf.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA10739; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 23:09:30 GMT (envelope-from psalzman@gamefish.pcola.gulf.net) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 23:09:30 +0000 (GMT) From: Phillip Salzman To: Sean Kelly cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Annelise Anderson , Open Systems Networking , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env In-Reply-To: <36474DDE.C16A0045@plutotech.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Well, when I get this desktop stuff done, I'll submit it > anyway---contest or no. Go for it, its better than nothing.. -- Phillip Salzman To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 9 16:17:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA13141 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 16:17:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from witch.xtra.co.nz (witch.xtra.co.nz [202.27.184.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA13127 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 16:17:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker (210-55-210-87.ipnets.xtra.co.nz [210.55.210.87]) by witch.xtra.co.nz (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA08082; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:16:26 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199811100016.NAA08082@witch.xtra.co.nz> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: DVL Software Limited To: "Dragon Knight" Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:16:36 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: unix is a problem: free bsd doesn't help Reply-to: junkmale@xtra.co.nz CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <003201be0c3c$cd361fc0$0100005a@dragon.dtgnet.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 9 Nov 98, at 16:56, Dragon Knight wrote: > > > > > >Actually, South Dakota could save money by firing your incompetent ass. > > > Hey, i'm a 15 year old high school student in South Dakota and have been > running FreeBSD off and on for a few months now, and I knew better than to > make most of the mistakes that guys "incompetent ass" made... What does > that say about us out here in the Midwest? It says you just got a job! -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 9 17:12:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA18603 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 17:12:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ime.net (ime.net [209.90.192.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA18598 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 17:11:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4011.ime.net [209.90.195.21]) by ime.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA28325; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 20:11:17 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981109200714.00a228c0@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 20:09:08 -0500 To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz, "Dragon Knight" From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: unix is a problem: free bsd doesn't help Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199811100016.NAA08082@witch.xtra.co.nz> References: <003201be0c3c$cd361fc0$0100005a@dragon.dtgnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:16 PM 11/10/98 +1300, Dan Langille wrote: >On 9 Nov 98, at 16:56, Dragon Knight wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >Actually, South Dakota could save money by firing your incompetent ass. >> >> >> Hey, i'm a 15 year old high school student in South Dakota and have been >> running FreeBSD off and on for a few months now, and I knew better than to >> make most of the mistakes that guys "incompetent ass" made... What does >> that say about us out here in the Midwest? > >It says you just got a job! I'm 17 and I've been using it for the last 4 years. There's plenty of incompetent asses running networks, most of them are 'computer coords' that integrate by hiring so called 'local talent' (also known as 80$ an hour consultant groups). When in doubt, any of the decent structures seem to be run not by staff, but by students. That's my 2 cents worth. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 9 19:00:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA00823 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 19:00:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA00818 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 19:00:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paulg@interlog.com) Received: from interlog.com (209-20-1-125.dialin.interlog.com [209.20.1.125]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA11290 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 21:58:54 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3647AB3C.678E9CCC@interlog.com> Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 21:55:56 -0500 From: Paul Griffith X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 i86pc) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Eddie For FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FYI >From http://www.eddieware.org ----- Eddie is a Open Source project and a set of cluster applications to be used when building highly robust and scalable server farms. Eddie is an Open Source initiative initiated by Ericsson Telecom AB and currently consists of four components, i.e. IP Migration Application Load-balancing DNS Server Intelligent HTTP Gateway Content Replication Application Three of these components have been released for Linux as beta software (0.83b1). The plan is to remove the beta label and to release a Solaris and FreeBSD version in December. Stay tuned for an NT version within the year. Major parts of Eddie have been written using the Erlang programming language. Without Erlang, Eddie would not be with us. Thank you Erlang! --- Paul Griffith <> paulg@interlog.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 9 20:01:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA05272 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 20:01:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ninbox.ml.org (hsv1-184.airnet.net [207.242.81.184]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA05267 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 20:01:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ninbox.ml.org (8.9.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA03381 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 21:58:33 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3647B9E7.BCC59A27@airnet.net> Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 21:58:31 -0600 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Absolutely None! X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Interesting: Microsoft tried to move Hotmail to NT and failed. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It seems that NT couldn't handle the load. Too bad... -- Kris Kirby UAH Mail UAH CS Home WWW ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 9 20:10:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA05825 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 20:10:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA05820 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 20:10:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.20]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with SMTP id AAA8777; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 23:13:09 +0500 Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 23:12:44 +0500 (GMT) From: "Pedro Fernando Giffuni" To: Kris Kirby cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting: Microsoft tried to move Hotmail to NT and failed. In-Reply-To: <3647B9E7.BCC59A27@airnet.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Old story...go to the Apache site and follow the link that find{s out what web server a site is running..point to hotmail and...BINGO..!! Pedro. On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, Kris Kirby wrote: > > > It seems that NT couldn't handle the load. Too bad... > > -- > Kris Kirby > UAH Mail UAH CS > Home WWW > ------------------------------------------- > TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 9 21:26:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA12479 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 21:26:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA12468 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 21:26:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA16627; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:56:02 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id PAA18139; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:56:00 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981110155600.B499@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:56:00 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Pedro Fernando Giffuni , Kris Kirby Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting: Microsoft tried to move Hotmail to NT and failed. References: <3647B9E7.BCC59A27@airnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Pedro Fernando Giffuni on Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 11:12:44PM +0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 9 November 1998 at 23:12:44 +0500, Pedro Fernando Giffuni wrote: > On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, Kris Kirby wrote: > >> >> >> It seems that NT couldn't handle the load. Too bad... > > Old story...go to the Apache site and follow the link that find{s out what > web server a site is running..point to hotmail and...BINGO..!! For those of you who can't be bothered to guess which site, etc., it's http://www.netcraft.co.uk/cgi-bin/Survey/whats. The result reads: www.hotmail.com is running Apache/1.2.1 on FreeBSD. Apache is also being used by Javasoft, Financial Times, W3 Consortium and The Royal Family. You'll notice the British references. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 9 23:56:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA23000 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 23:56:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.cityip.co.za (ns.cityip.co.za [196.25.223.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA22983 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 23:55:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wjv@cityip.co.za) Received: from wjv by ns.cityip.co.za with local (Exim 2.05 #1) id 0zd8eK-0000Ic-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:55:40 +0200 Message-ID: <19981110095540.A1100@cityip.co.za> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:55:40 +0200 From: Johann Visagie To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting: Microsoft tried to move Hotmail to NT and failed. References: <3647B9E7.BCC59A27@airnet.net> <19981110155600.B499@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19981110155600.B499@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Tue, Nov 10, 1998 at 03:56:00PM +1030 X-PGP: ftp://ftp.cityip.co.za/users/wjv/pubkey.asc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 at 15:56 SAST, Greg Lehey wrote: > > For those of you who can't be bothered to guess which site, etc., it's > http://www.netcraft.co.uk/cgi-bin/Survey/whats. The result reads: > > www.hotmail.com is running Apache/1.2.1 on FreeBSD. The addition of the operating system check to the Netcraft survey must be a fairly new thing - I haven't seen that before. Now the question, _how_ do they do it? They correctly identify my Web server as running FreeBSD, and yet I didn't see any connections or attempted connections, except for the expected "HEAD / HTTP/1.0" query to the httpd. Let me dig deeper... -- V Johann Visagie | wjv@CityIP.co.za | Tel: +27 21 419-7878 | ICQ: 20645559 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 10 02:04:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA04352 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 02:04:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hotpoint.dcs.qmw.ac.uk (hotpoint.dcs.qmw.ac.uk [138.37.88.162]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA04338 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 02:04:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk) Received: from brunos-sun.dcs.qmw.ac.uk [138.37.88.185]; by hotpoint.dcs.qmw.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.5/S-4.0) with SMTP; id KAA05743; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:03:39 GMT Received: locally by brunos-sun (SMI-8.6/QMW-client-3.2b); poster "scott"; id KAA09782; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:02:52 GMT Message-ID: <19981110100251.D11520@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:02:51 +0000 From: Scott Mitchell To: Sue Blake , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Annelise Anderson , Phillip Salzman , Open Systems Networking , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env References: <7819.910633456@time.cdrom.com> <19981110084727.55542@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19981110084727.55542@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Tue, Nov 10, 1998 at 08:47:27AM +1100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Nov 10, 1998 at 08:47:27AM +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > On Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 09:44:16AM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > > It is astonishing to me that FreeBSD continues to ship with a two > > > default shells that are not good for interactive use and an out-of-date > > > window manager, and remains relatively difficult to get up and running > > > in critical areas, specifically graphics, printing, sound, and communica- > > > tions. > > > > Not so astonishing - it's quite clear by these results that the number > > of people who actually CARE about this must be very small indeed. > > To be more precise, the number of people who both care and know how > to do something about it must be very small indeed. > > It is equally possible that these groups are both large, but do not > overlap. The results indicate nothing about the total number of people > who care. > > The most helpless users probably care most, and are seen least. > Give them more little ways to contribute without making it their life's > work, then those who can-do will see better reasons for improving on > these feeble attempts. I can't see how it could work any other way and > be sustainable. Absolutely -- the people most in need of an easy-to-drive desktop are probably, in the main, those least able to fix it for themselves. OTOH, *my* desktop suits me just fine, but scares the life out of other (experienced) people if they ever try to use it -- why is why I didn't bother submitting it. Slightly heretical perhaps, but if all we want is something easy-to-use that's installed by default, why not just borrow the stuff from RedHat (replacing all the guy-in-hat icons with daemons, of course). That would at least be a starting point for our own 'look'. The point'n'drool configuration tools are another matter. Scott. -- =========================================================================== Scott Mitchell | PGP Key ID |"If I can't have my coffee, I'm just | 0x54B171B9 | like a dried up piece of roast goat" QMW College, London, UK | 0xAA775B8B | -- J. S. Bach. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 10 02:15:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA05228 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 02:15:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA05217 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 02:15:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.05demon1 #1) id 0zdAog-0005BW-00; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:14:30 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id KAA02045; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:13:54 GMT Received: from uk.radan.com (gppsun4) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03983; Tue, 10 Nov 98 10:13:53 GMT Message-Id: <364811C2.68D620BE@uk.radan.com> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:13:22 +0000 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting: Microsoft tried to move Hotmail to NT and failed. References: <3647B9E7.BCC59A27@airnet.net> <19981110155600.B499@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Monday, 9 November 1998 at 23:12:44 +0500, Pedro Fernando Giffuni wrote: > > On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, Kris Kirby wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> It seems that NT couldn't handle the load. Too bad... > > > > Old story...go to the Apache site and follow the link that find{s out what > > web server a site is running..point to hotmail and...BINGO..!! > > For those of you who can't be bothered to guess which site, etc., it's > http://www.netcraft.co.uk/cgi-bin/Survey/whats. The result reads: > > www.hotmail.com is running Apache/1.2.1 on FreeBSD. > > Apache is also being used by Javasoft, Financial Times, W3 > Consortium and The Royal Family. > Hmm, Apache should be entitled to get the Royal Crest and "By Royal Appointment. Apache, purveyors of fine Software" on their products ;-) > You'll notice the British references. > What significance are you attaching to this fact? > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Trust the computer industry to shorten Year 2000 to Y2K. It was this thinking that caused the problem in the first place. Mark Ovens, CNC Applications Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath, Avon, England. Sheet Metal CAD/CAM Solutions mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 10 03:22:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA10382 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 03:22:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from second.dialup.access.net (lsmarso.dialup.access.net [166.84.254.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA10375 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 03:22:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from larry@marso.com) Received: (from larry@localhost) by second.dialup.access.net (8.9.1/8.8.8) id GAA08177 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 06:20:48 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from larry) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 06:20:48 -0500 From: "Larry S. Marso" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: SCO is Intel's premier Unix OS Message-ID: <19981110062048.D6799@marso.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.94.13i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At least it's not Linux. Monterey: Intel's premier Unix OS By Deni Connor Network World, 11/09/98 Somers, N.Y. - Intel's endorsement of The Santa Cruz Operation's UnixWare as the premier Unix operating system for Intel processors can only help solidify the place of Unix in users' future operating system plans. Intel has blessed an initiative, dubbed Project Monterey, that will lead to several new versions of Unix. The first is a flavor of SCO's UnixWare for 32-bit processors from IBM and Intel that incorporates IBM DB2 and MQSeries middleware and is currently available. Future releases of this version will add IBM's AIX operating system technology. IBM also will take current UnixWare technology and incorporate it into future versions of AIX to create a second flavor of the Project Monterey platform. The third Unix operating system will be for Intel's IA-64 Merced processor, which is expected out in mid-2000. IBMand Intel have created a multimillion dollar fund to spur software development for this version of Unix. "The net result is that this operating system is positioned to be the leading Unix operating system on the Intel architecture," says John Miner, vice president and general manager of Intel's Enterprise Server Group. While SCO, IBM and Sequent are united behind this initiative, the biggest winners are users of Intel processors. "Intel is billing this initiative as the premier Unix operating system environment to move to Merced," says Brad Day, senior analyst with Giga Information Group in Norwell, Mass. With Project Monterey, users will be able to choose from three versions of Unix, depending on the hardware architecture they have selected, and will have an increased variety of Unix software and applications. Intel benefits from having "yet another operating system supplier pledge support for its platform," says James Gruener, senior analyst for NT servers at Aberdeen Group in Boston. "IBM was one of the major holdouts with AIX. By now coming forth with this software . . . there could be crossover from customers who eventually move from the RS/6000 to IA-64," Gruener says. Whether users will see UnixWare as an alternative to Windows NT depends on several things, he says. "There is the timing involved when 64-bit UnixWare arrives vs. when 64-bit NT will be available. The second issue is that customers have to choose whether they want a Unix environment based on IBM's legacy AIX or Microsoft's NT, which has larger independent software vendor support," Gruener says. Further, he says that Microsoft may not have the background in 64-bit technology that IBM research already has. Project Monterey would be further strengthened by participation of other vendors, such as Compaq and Dell. Subo Guha, director of product marketing for Dell's Enterprise Systems Group, says, "The good news is that a lot of the enterprise-class Unix versions have been on Reduced Instruction Set Computing boxes. This announcement is bringing more robust Unix features to the Intel architecture." While Dell won't commit to one Unix architecture over another, it will continue to support Unix features that run on Intel architectures. A number of software companies, including Netscape, the SAS Institute and Novell, have also committed to delivering applications for Unix on Merced. Among the hardware manufacturers that will use the new Unix software are Acer, Motorola Computer Group and Unisys Computer Systems. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 10 03:55:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA13148 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 03:55:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bamboo.ints.ml.org (intschool.easynet.co.uk [194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA13142 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 03:55:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from stuart@ints.ml.org) Received: (from stuart@localhost) by bamboo.ints.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA07062; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:55:40 GMT (envelope-from stuart) Message-ID: <19981110115539.A6963@helan.org> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:55:39 +0000 From: Stuart Henderson To: Johann Visagie , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting: Microsoft tried to move Hotmail to NT and failed. References: <3647B9E7.BCC59A27@airnet.net> <19981110155600.B499@freebie.lemis.com> <19981110095540.A1100@cityip.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19981110095540.A1100@cityip.co.za>; from Johann Visagie on Tue, Nov 10, 1998 at 09:55:40AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Nov 10, 1998 at 09:55:40AM +0200, Johann Visagie wrote: > > Now the question, _how_ do they do it? They correctly identify my Web server > as running FreeBSD, and yet I didn't see any connections or attempted > connections, except for the expected "HEAD / HTTP/1.0" query to the httpd. Here's an interesting one... www.openbsd.org is running Apache/1.3.3 (Unix) on Solaris. (whereas www.netbsd.org reports OpenBSD or NetBSD). It doesn't guess the OS on freebsd-online.ml.org (apache 1.2.5) but it does for www.kernel.org (also using apache 1.2.5). Would be nice if they had a "this operating system also runs on " along with the list of people using the same web server :-) Bizarre. Netcraft use NCSA for their own server, but it took rather longer to tell me that than it did for most other sites! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 10 04:07:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA16002 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 04:07:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bamboo.ints.ml.org (intschool.easynet.co.uk [194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA15993 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 04:07:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from stuart@ints.ml.org) Received: (from stuart@localhost) by bamboo.ints.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA07123; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:06:44 GMT (envelope-from stuart) Message-ID: <19981110120644.B6963@helan.org> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:06:44 +0000 From: Stuart Henderson To: Scott Mitchell , Sue Blake , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Annelise Anderson , Phillip Salzman , Open Systems Networking , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env References: <7819.910633456@time.cdrom.com> <19981110084727.55542@welearn.com.au> <19981110100251.D11520@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19981110100251.D11520@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>; from Scott Mitchell on Tue, Nov 10, 1998 at 10:02:51AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Nov 10, 1998 at 10:02:51AM +0000, Scott Mitchell wrote: > > Slightly heretical perhaps, but if all we want is something easy-to-use > that's installed by default, why not just borrow the stuff from RedHat > (replacing all the guy-in-hat icons with daemons, of course). I think just a stock fvwm2 installation would be more useful for most new users than xterm+twm. Better still would be to have a way of specifying the window manager the same way you choose Lynx and gated versions in sysinstall. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 10 06:15:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA26888 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 06:15:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de [194.233.237.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA26881 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 06:15:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cracauer@gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de) Received: (from cracauer@localhost) by gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (8.8.8/8.7.3) id PAA15488; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:14:39 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19981110151438.A15464@cons.org> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:14:38 +0100 From: Martin Cracauer To: Yarema , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env References: <03ca01be0c2c$9a6112e0$1f40e6cd@ichiban.ingress.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.1i In-Reply-To: <03ca01be0c2c$9a6112e0$1f40e6cd@ichiban.ingress.com>; from Yarema on Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 05:02:11PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <03ca01be0c2c$9a6112e0$1f40e6cd@ichiban.ingress.com>, Yarema wrote: > > The default shells are because of an attempt to keep ``standard''. > >Although, I believe we should also include tcsh or bash... but I think > >they are under GPL license. Well, I think bash is. > > But zsh is under a BSD style license and IMHO it's better than but similar > enough to bash. So how about tcsh and zsh? I don't think that makes sense. bash2 is now the "standard" shell for userfriendly Unix accounts (and works well, BTW). If we ship a slightly different default shell, we'll be flooded with PRs from people used to bash. And zsh has quite some subtle differences (IMHO, it is much worse than bash2). And I don't think the license matters that much in this case, either. A more comfortable shell is for those people who want it and as long as the system still runs when you remove it, a GPL software is fine. P.S. What we need here is ports//easy2use which depends on X11, bash2, fvwm2/95, some file browser, a stupid X editor, less, a Web browser with default to /usr/share/doc/handbook/index.html, Mail and News reader. Just use the most commonly used tools (see logfile from wcarchive for pub/FreeBSD/packages). And which installs a set of useful default dotfiles, either to /etc or so that adduser will use it as default when creating a new account. That way, we can even take the incredible bloat and gone-wild configuration Linux distributions like S.U.S.E. put on the user to our advantage. Just the most common tools with a lightweight non-agressive configuration. Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer http://www.cons.org/cracauer BSD User Group Hamburg, Germany http://www.bsdhh.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 10 06:31:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA28692 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 06:31:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from assurance.rstcorp.com ([206.29.49.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA28687 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 06:31:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from vshah@rstcorp.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by assurance.rstcorp.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA16492; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:30:23 -0500 Received: from sandbox.rstcorp.com(206.29.49.63) by assurance.rstcorp.com via smap (V2.0) id xma016481; Tue, 10 Nov 98 09:29:57 -0500 Received: from jabberwock.rstcorp.com (jabberwock [206.29.49.98]) by sandbox.rstcorp.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA02719; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:29:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (from vshah@localhost) by jabberwock.rstcorp.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) id JAA03049; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:29:56 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:29:56 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199811101429.JAA03049@jabberwock.rstcorp.com> From: "Viren R. Shah" To: Licia Cc: Open Systems Networking , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Now THIS would be a cool port! :-) In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: "Viren R. Shah" X-Face: )~y+U*K:yzjz{q<5lzpI_SVef'U.])9g[C9`1N@]u3,MHY7f*l7C)[_NjM4y4K8$uIUh|\u (K&&HS6,M!61&GMTk'mqmB/Qg]]X}"?TzsFl]"2v!bl8']dma.:^IY^a[lbOI>U:b<~FyK3q-p{HmZ mn~g.`~BE!5{2D:}Yi+\_KkWe?XaHj9$ko1k8iKLYv5*_2c8"G=?Up[}hn+7RNM(bzBZ_wWk6!Pf&B ?3Tcm7M7B~W%K/I0aX3]*=jP?aM]H6HBPT`oLk+0n^_;N\2\%|Rhy;p}34Q.jEsM\qtnxcm;ag%Nq Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >>>>> "Licia" == Licia writes: Licia> On Sun, 8 Nov 1998, Open Systems Networking wrote: Licia> This doesn't really need to be ported, unless you mean building Licia> one for the ports/packages system. Simply download sh_unix_1.6.tar.gz Licia> and do this : I got it to compile just fine, but it never seems to be able to connect to the server. I get a : Everything correct? (y/n) y connect: Connection refused Server is down - try later I've been getting this for a couple of days now. Any ideas? Licia> [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/ ] [ IrcNick : Licia ] Thanks Viren -- Viren R. Shah {viren @ rstcorp . com} Names : Vanadium(23) Iodine(53) RhEnium(75) Nitrogen(7) Density(g/mL): 5.8 4.92 21 0.0001251 Average Density: 7.93003 g/mL To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 10 06:50:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA00760 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 06:50:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de [194.233.237.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA00755 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 06:50:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cracauer@gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de) Received: (from cracauer@localhost) by gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (8.8.8/8.7.3) id PAA15498; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:19:30 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19981110151930.B15464@cons.org> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:19:30 +0100 From: Martin Cracauer To: Johann Visagie , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting: Microsoft tried to move Hotmail to NT and failed. References: <3647B9E7.BCC59A27@airnet.net> <19981110155600.B499@freebie.lemis.com> <19981110095540.A1100@cityip.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.1i In-Reply-To: <19981110095540.A1100@cityip.co.za>; from Johann Visagie on Tue, Nov 10, 1998 at 09:55:40AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <19981110095540.A1100@cityip.co.za>, Johann Visagie wrote: > On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 at 15:56 SAST, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > > For those of you who can't be bothered to guess which site, etc., it's > > http://www.netcraft.co.uk/cgi-bin/Survey/whats. The result reads: > > > > www.hotmail.com is running Apache/1.2.1 on FreeBSD. > > The addition of the operating system check to the Netcraft survey must be a > fairly new thing - I haven't seen that before. > > Now the question, _how_ do they do it? They correctly identify my Web server > as running FreeBSD, and yet I didn't see any connections or attempted > connections, except for the expected "HEAD / HTTP/1.0" query to the httpd. Don't know if that' the same survey, but some time ago there was some such survey that recognized OSes by their TCP behaviour when faced with muliple connections in various stages (can you say "BUG" :-). Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer http://www.cons.org/cracauer BSD User Group Hamburg, Germany http://www.bsdhh.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 10 06:53:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA01152 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 06:53:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bamboo.ints.ml.org (intschool.easynet.co.uk [194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA01132 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 06:53:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from stuart@ints.ml.org) Received: (from stuart@localhost) by bamboo.ints.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA08008; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 14:50:50 GMT (envelope-from stuart) Message-ID: <19981110145050.A7941@helan.org> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 14:50:50 +0000 From: Stuart Henderson To: "Viren R. Shah" , Licia Cc: Open Systems Networking , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Now THIS would be a cool port! :-) References: <199811101429.JAA03049@jabberwock.rstcorp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <199811101429.JAA03049@jabberwock.rstcorp.com>; from Viren R. Shah on Tue, Nov 10, 1998 at 09:29:56AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Nov 10, 1998 at 09:29:56AM -0500, Viren R. Shah wrote: > > I got it to compile just fine, but it never seems to be able to > connect to the server. I get a : > > Everything correct? (y/n) y > connect: Connection refused > Server is down - try later Are you in the group of 100 beta testers (as mentioned in the email that seti@home sent out with their current status, i.e. still on track for releasing the software to the public next April)? If not, that might explain things somewhat... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 10 06:59:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA01906 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 06:59:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from assurance.rstcorp.com ([206.29.49.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA01901 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 06:59:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from vshah@rstcorp.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by assurance.rstcorp.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA17024; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:59:02 -0500 Received: from sandbox.rstcorp.com(206.29.49.63) by assurance.rstcorp.com via smap (V2.0) id xma016924; Tue, 10 Nov 98 09:57:29 -0500 Received: from jabberwock.rstcorp.com (jabberwock [206.29.49.98]) by sandbox.rstcorp.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA03476; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:57:23 -0500 (EST) Received: (from vshah@localhost) by jabberwock.rstcorp.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) id JAA03808; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:57:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:57:23 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199811101457.JAA03808@jabberwock.rstcorp.com> From: "Viren R. Shah" To: Stuart Henderson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Now THIS would be a cool port! :-) In-Reply-To: <19981110145050.A7941@helan.org> References: <199811101429.JAA03049@jabberwock.rstcorp.com> <19981110145050.A7941@helan.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: "Viren R. Shah" X-Face: )~y+U*K:yzjz{q<5lzpI_SVef'U.])9g[C9`1N@]u3,MHY7f*l7C)[_NjM4y4K8$uIUh|\u (K&&HS6,M!61&GMTk'mqmB/Qg]]X}"?TzsFl]"2v!bl8']dma.:^IY^a[lbOI>U:b<~FyK3q-p{HmZ mn~g.`~BE!5{2D:}Yi+\_KkWe?XaHj9$ko1k8iKLYv5*_2c8"G=?Up[}hn+7RNM(bzBZ_wWk6!Pf&B ?3Tcm7M7B~W%K/I0aX3]*=jP?aM]H6HBPT`oLk+0n^_;N\2\%|Rhy;p}34Q.jEsM\qtnxcm;ag%Nq Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >>>>> "Stuart" == Stuart Henderson writes: Stuart> Are you in the group of 100 beta testers (as mentioned in the Stuart> email that seti@home sent out with their current status, Stuart> i.e. still on track for releasing the software to the public Stuart> next April)? Stuart> If not, that might explain things somewhat... Aah. That does explain it. I went back and re-read the email msg from them. Oh well, I'll wait until April. Thanks Viren -- Viren R. Shah {viren @ rstcorp . com} Names : Vanadium(23) Iodine(53) RhEnium(75) Nitrogen(7) Density(g/mL): 5.8 4.92 21 0.0001251 Average Density: 7.93003 g/mL To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 10 07:53:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA08400 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 07:53:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from scribe.intop.net (scribe.intop.net [206.156.254.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA08383 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 07:53:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from smiledon@intop.net) From: smiledon@intop.net Received: from pc4.intop.net (pc4.intop.net [206.156.254.247]) by scribe.intop.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) with SMTP id JAA12952; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:51:46 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199811101551.JAA12952@scribe.intop.net> To: "Larry S. Marso" Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:54:43 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: SCO is Intel's premier Unix OS CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <19981110062048.D6799@marso.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hmm... I wonder who owns 65% of SCO???? -Charlie (FreeBSD is my premier Unix OS. :-) > At least it's not Linux. > > Monterey: Intel's premier Unix OS > > By Deni Connor > Network World, 11/09/98 > [blah...] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 10 08:15:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA10501 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:15:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pluto.plutotech.com (mail.plutotech.com [206.168.67.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA10491 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:15:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kelly@plutotech.com) Received: from plutotech.com (tampopo.plutotech.com [206.168.67.161]) by pluto.plutotech.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA25391; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:13:05 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36486610.373F01B5@plutotech.com> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:13:04 -0700 From: Sean Kelly Organization: Pluto Technologies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Scott Mitchell CC: Sue Blake , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Annelise Anderson , Phillip Salzman , Open Systems Networking , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env References: <7819.910633456@time.cdrom.com> <19981110084727.55542@welearn.com.au> <19981110100251.D11520@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > *my* desktop suits me just fine, but scares the life out of other > (experienced) people if they ever try to use it Sounds like my personal desktop. It's very zen: no background; a minimal front panel with just date, time, and an xterm button; and the windows don't even have borders (borders are ugly and take too much space). I still chuckle when people using my desktop go to the corner of a window to resize something and suddenly grow confused. --Sean To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 10 08:17:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA10889 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:17:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamefish.pcola.gulf.net (gamefish.pcola.gulf.net [198.69.72.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA10881 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:17:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from psalzman@gamefish.pcola.gulf.net) Received: from localhost (psalzman@localhost) by gamefish.pcola.gulf.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA14545; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:17:15 GMT (envelope-from psalzman@gamefish.pcola.gulf.net) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:17:15 +0000 (GMT) From: Phillip Salzman To: Kris Kirby cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting: Microsoft tried to move Hotmail to NT and failed. In-Reply-To: <3647B9E7.BCC59A27@airnet.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yep, and i'm sure they will try to do the same thing with the Internet Linkexchange. -- Phillip Salzman On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, Kris Kirby wrote: > > > It seems that NT couldn't handle the load. Too bad... > > -- > Kris Kirby > UAH Mail UAH CS > Home WWW > ------------------------------------------- > TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 10 08:37:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA12853 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:37:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bamboo.ints.ml.org (intschool.easynet.co.uk [194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA12843 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:36:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from stuart@ints.ml.org) Received: (from stuart@localhost) by bamboo.ints.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA08736; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:37:04 GMT (envelope-from stuart) Message-ID: <19981110163704.A8637@helan.org> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:37:04 +0000 From: Stuart Henderson To: Phillip Salzman , Kris Kirby Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting: Microsoft tried to move Hotmail to NT and failed. References: <3647B9E7.BCC59A27@airnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Phillip Salzman on Tue, Nov 10, 1998 at 04:17:15PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Nov 10, 1998 at 04:17:15PM +0000, Phillip Salzman wrote: > > Yep, and i'm sure they will try to do the same thing with the > Internet Linkexchange. of course, if they do that, they will have their incompetence broadcast across thousands of web sites. no change there, then :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 10 09:36:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22062 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:36:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA22040 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:36:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (jack@localhost) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA19327; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:34:54 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:34:54 -0500 (EST) From: jack To: Johann Visagie cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting: Microsoft tried to move Hotmail to NT and failed. In-Reply-To: <19981110095540.A1100@cityip.co.za> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 10 Nov 1998, Johann Visagie wrote: > The addition of the operating system check to the Netcraft survey must be a > fairly new thing - I haven't seen that before. > > Now the question, _how_ do they do it? Don't know, but you can do it with /usr/ports/net/queso -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 10 10:04:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA24454 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:04:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamefish.pcola.gulf.net (gamefish.pcola.gulf.net [198.69.72.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA24446 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:04:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from psalzman@gamefish.pcola.gulf.net) Received: from localhost (psalzman@localhost) by gamefish.pcola.gulf.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA15111; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:02:12 GMT (envelope-from psalzman@gamefish.pcola.gulf.net) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:02:12 +0000 (GMT) From: Phillip Salzman To: Scott Mitchell cc: Sue Blake , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Annelise Anderson , Open Systems Networking , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env In-Reply-To: <19981110100251.D11520@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Slightly heretical perhaps, but if all we want is something easy-to-use > that's installed by default, why not just borrow the stuff from RedHat > (replacing all the guy-in-hat icons with daemons, of course). That would > at least be a starting point for our own 'look'. The point'n'drool > configuration tools are another matter. > Because we cannot. We (ie BSDs) run on the berkeley style license, while RedHat runs on GPL -- you can't import the stuff without keeping the original license, I believe. The toolset I have in mind will be mostly for workstations that need to keep track of the servers. It'll be neat-o, and what can we lose from it? -- Phillip Salzman "null body message; hope thats ok" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 10 10:11:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA25284 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:11:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hotpoint.dcs.qmw.ac.uk (hotpoint.dcs.qmw.ac.uk [138.37.88.162]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA25246 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:10:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk) Received: from brunos-sun.dcs.qmw.ac.uk [138.37.88.185]; by hotpoint.dcs.qmw.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.5/S-4.0) with SMTP; id SAA14004; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:09:40 GMT Received: locally by brunos-sun (SMI-8.6/QMW-client-3.2b); poster "scott"; id SAA10487; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:08:53 GMT Message-ID: <19981110180852.G11520@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:08:52 +0000 From: Scott Mitchell To: Phillip Salzman Cc: Sue Blake , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Annelise Anderson , Open Systems Networking , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env References: <19981110100251.D11520@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Phillip Salzman on Tue, Nov 10, 1998 at 06:02:12PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Nov 10, 1998 at 06:02:12PM +0000, Phillip Salzman wrote: > > > > Slightly heretical perhaps, but if all we want is something easy-to-use > > that's installed by default, why not just borrow the stuff from RedHat > > (replacing all the guy-in-hat icons with daemons, of course). That would > > at least be a starting point for our own 'look'. The point'n'drool > > configuration tools are another matter. > > > > Because we cannot. We (ie BSDs) run on the berkeley style > license, while RedHat runs on GPL -- you can't import the stuff without > keeping the original license, I believe. There's a whole lotta GPL-ed stuff on my 'BSD CDs (gcc for one, plus a large fraction of the stuff in the ports collection). If it's an optional thing in sysinstall "click this to install nice X desktop", where's the problem? Scott. -- =========================================================================== Scott Mitchell | PGP Key ID |"If I can't have my coffee, I'm just | 0x54B171B9 | like a dried up piece of roast goat" QMW College, London, UK | 0xAA775B8B | -- J. S. Bach. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 10 11:06:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA01323 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:06:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamefish.pcola.gulf.net (gamefish.pcola.gulf.net [198.69.72.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA01245 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:05:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from psalzman@gamefish.pcola.gulf.net) Received: from localhost (psalzman@localhost) by gamefish.pcola.gulf.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA15355; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:04:54 GMT (envelope-from psalzman@gamefish.pcola.gulf.net) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:04:54 +0000 (GMT) From: Phillip Salzman To: Stuart Henderson cc: Scott Mitchell , Sue Blake , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Annelise Anderson , Open Systems Networking , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env In-Reply-To: <19981110120644.B6963@helan.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yes, that would be better. I sorta like my utilities idea, maybe someone else would be interested in it too. The main problem we have with it right now is what wiglet to use if it is done C... we don't want something that is GPL'd because of the licensing with BSD. Note, my plans do not include a window manager currently. Just some admin tools - the ``package deal'' will probally ship with a hacked-up version of FVWM2 or something. Anyone wanna help? -- Phillip Salzman "i broke it!" On Tue, 10 Nov 1998, Stuart Henderson wrote: > On Tue, Nov 10, 1998 at 10:02:51AM +0000, Scott Mitchell wrote: > > > > Slightly heretical perhaps, but if all we want is something easy-to-use > > that's installed by default, why not just borrow the stuff from RedHat > > (replacing all the guy-in-hat icons with daemons, of course). > > I think just a stock fvwm2 installation would be more useful for most > new users than xterm+twm. Better still would be to have a way of specifying > the window manager the same way you choose Lynx and gated versions in > sysinstall. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 10 11:16:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA02702 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:16:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamefish.pcola.gulf.net (gamefish.pcola.gulf.net [198.69.72.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA02697 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:16:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from psalzman@gamefish.pcola.gulf.net) Received: from localhost (psalzman@localhost) by gamefish.pcola.gulf.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA15411; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:16:09 GMT (envelope-from psalzman@gamefish.pcola.gulf.net) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:16:09 +0000 (GMT) From: Phillip Salzman To: Martin Cracauer cc: Yarema , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env In-Reply-To: <19981110151438.A15464@cons.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I don't think that makes sense. bash2 is now the "standard" shell for > userfriendly Unix accounts (and works well, BTW). If we ship a > slightly different default shell, we'll be flooded with PRs from > people used to bash. And zsh has quite some subtle differences (IMHO, > it is much worse than bash2). Bash is far from standard. Just a lot of people use it, and some like it. sh and csh are the standards. Shipping with bash as the default shell is utterly stupid, expecially for an OS like FreeBSD. > > And I don't think the license matters that much in this case, > either. A more comfortable shell is for those people who want it and > as long as the system still runs when you remove it, a GPL software is > fine. > The license has a lot to do with it. We cannot ship with bash installed by default because we run off of the ``Berkeley Style'' license. This differs a lot from GPL, and you cannot split an OS up into two different licenses. We can, infact, offer it as a third party software enhancement. Like we do now, via the ports/packages. Maybe something at the end of the installation saying "Would you like to include a more userfriendly shell?" or of the sort. > ports//easy2use > which depends on X11, bash2, fvwm2/95, some file browser, a stupid X > editor, less, a Web browser with default to > /usr/share/doc/handbook/index.html, Mail and News reader. Just use the > most commonly used tools (see logfile from wcarchive for > pub/FreeBSD/packages). > not fvwm95, eww! ;) But something basically of the sort - but it will be rolled out and designed for FreeBSD. Something like that. -- Phillip Salzman To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 10 12:40:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA11850 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:40:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from witch.xtra.co.nz (witch.xtra.co.nz [202.27.184.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA11780 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:39:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker (210-55-210-87.ipnets.xtra.co.nz [210.55.210.87]) by witch.xtra.co.nz (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA11842 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:39:31 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199811102039.JAA11842@witch.xtra.co.nz> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: DVL Software Limited To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:39:54 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: The Christmas document Reply-to: junkmale@xtra.co.nz X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just when you thought it was over, we find The Christmas document. http://i-want-a-website.com/about-linux/nov98.shtml#Leaked-Memo It's a spoof on the Halloween document and talks about Closed Source Software. It is a document leaked by a Red Hat employee and talks about an upstart company in Redmond. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 10 14:19:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA25321 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 14:19:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA25311 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 14:19:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id XAA01535; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:18:55 +0100 (MET) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:18:53 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Christmas document References: <199811102039.JAA11842@witch.xtra.co.nz> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 10 Nov 1998 23:18:51 +0100 In-Reply-To: "Dan Langille"'s message of "Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:39:54 +1300" Message-ID: Lines: 9 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id OAA25317 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Dan Langille" writes: > Just when you thought it was over, we find The Christmas document. By the way, did you know that Halloween and Christmas Day are in fact the exact same day? Yep, boys and girls, 31 Oct = 25 Dec. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 10 16:07:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA09918 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:07:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA09833 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:07:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA20139; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:34:45 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id KAA19890; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:34:45 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981111103444.N18183@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:34:44 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Johann Visagie , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting: Microsoft tried to move Hotmail to NT and failed. References: <3647B9E7.BCC59A27@airnet.net> <19981110155600.B499@freebie.lemis.com> <19981110095540.A1100@cityip.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19981110095540.A1100@cityip.co.za>; from Johann Visagie on Tue, Nov 10, 1998 at 09:55:40AM +0200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 10 November 1998 at 9:55:40 +0200, Johann Visagie wrote: > On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 at 15:56 SAST, Greg Lehey wrote: >> >> For those of you who can't be bothered to guess which site, etc., it's >> http://www.netcraft.co.uk/cgi-bin/Survey/whats. The result reads: >> >> www.hotmail.com is running Apache/1.2.1 on FreeBSD. > > The addition of the operating system check to the Netcraft survey must be a > fairly new thing - I haven't seen that before. > > Now the question, _how_ do they do it? They correctly identify my Web server > as running FreeBSD, and yet I didn't see any connections or attempted > connections, except for the expected "HEAD / HTTP/1.0" query to the httpd. Right. I saw this, too. They *don't* identify the operating system for my web server. > Let me dig deeper... Please do, and publish your results. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 10 16:07:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA09973 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:07:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA09854 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:07:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA20153; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:36:26 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id KAA19901; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:35:59 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981111103558.O18183@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:35:58 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Mark Ovens Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting: Microsoft tried to move Hotmail to NT and failed. References: <3647B9E7.BCC59A27@airnet.net> <19981110155600.B499@freebie.lemis.com> <364811C2.68D620BE@uk.radan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <364811C2.68D620BE@uk.radan.com>; from Mark Ovens on Tue, Nov 10, 1998 at 10:13:22AM +0000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 10 November 1998 at 10:13:22 +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: >> >> On Monday, 9 November 1998 at 23:12:44 +0500, Pedro Fernando Giffuni wrote: >>> On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, Kris Kirby wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It seems that NT couldn't handle the load. Too bad... >>> >>> Old story...go to the Apache site and follow the link that find{s out what >>> web server a site is running..point to hotmail and...BINGO..!! >> >> For those of you who can't be bothered to guess which site, etc., it's >> http://www.netcraft.co.uk/cgi-bin/Survey/whats. The result reads: >> >> www.hotmail.com is running Apache/1.2.1 on FreeBSD. >> >> Apache is also being used by Javasoft, Financial Times, W3 >> Consortium and The Royal Family. >> > > Hmm, Apache should be entitled to get the Royal Crest and "By Royal > Appointment. Apache, purveyors of fine Software" on their products > ;-) Right. >> You'll notice the British references. > > What significance are you attaching to this fact? It looks a little quaint: "The Royal Family". How many royal families do you think there are? There's nothing apart from the URL to suggest that this is the *British* Royal Family. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 10 17:00:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA15922 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:00:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from wcug.wwu.edu (sloth.wcug.wwu.edu [140.160.164.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA15913 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:00:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tcole@wcug.wwu.edu) Received: (qmail 29825 invoked by uid 1085); 11 Nov 1998 01:00:14 -0000 Message-ID: <19981110170014.A28944@wcug.wwu.edu> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:00:14 -0800 From: Travis Cole To: Stuart Henderson , Johann Visagie , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting: Microsoft tried to move Hotmail to NT and failed. References: <3647B9E7.BCC59A27@airnet.net> <19981110155600.B499@freebie.lemis.com> <19981110095540.A1100@cityip.co.za> <19981110115539.A6963@helan.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19981110115539.A6963@helan.org>; from Stuart Henderson on Tue, Nov 10, 1998 at 11:55:39AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Nov 10, 1998 at 11:55:39AM +0000, Stuart Henderson wrote: > > Here's an interesting one... > > www.openbsd.org is running Apache/1.3.3 (Unix) on Solaris. > (whereas www.netbsd.org reports OpenBSD or NetBSD). www.netbsd.org is a PII 450(?) with, I beleive, 128MB RAM and a 8GB drive. Its a Gateway 2000 and runs NetBSD. It sits in the office of one of the CS Profs here at WWU. -- --Travis To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 10 17:00:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA15923 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:00:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from wcug.wwu.edu (sloth.wcug.wwu.edu [140.160.164.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA15912 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:00:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tcole@wcug.wwu.edu) Received: (qmail 29825 invoked by uid 1085); 11 Nov 1998 01:00:14 -0000 Message-ID: <19981110170014.A28944@wcug.wwu.edu> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:00:14 -0800 From: Travis Cole To: Stuart Henderson , Johann Visagie , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting: Microsoft tried to move Hotmail to NT and failed. References: <3647B9E7.BCC59A27@airnet.net> <19981110155600.B499@freebie.lemis.com> <19981110095540.A1100@cityip.co.za> <19981110115539.A6963@helan.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19981110115539.A6963@helan.org>; from Stuart Henderson on Tue, Nov 10, 1998 at 11:55:39AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Nov 10, 1998 at 11:55:39AM +0000, Stuart Henderson wrote: > > Here's an interesting one... > > www.openbsd.org is running Apache/1.3.3 (Unix) on Solaris. > (whereas www.netbsd.org reports OpenBSD or NetBSD). www.netbsd.org is a PII 450(?) with, I beleive, 128MB RAM and a 8GB drive. Its a Gateway 2000 and runs NetBSD. It sits in the office of one of the CS Profs here at WWU. -- --Travis To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 10 17:54:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA20379 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:54:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (banshee.cs.uow.edu.au [130.130.188.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA20374 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:54:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au) Received: (from ncb05@localhost) by banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id MAA14034; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:53:29 +1100 (EST) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:53:29 +1100 (EST) From: Nicholas Charles Brawn X-Sender: ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au To: jack cc: Johann Visagie , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting: Microsoft tried to move Hotmail to NT and failed. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 10 Nov 1998, jack wrote: : On Tue, 10 Nov 1998, Johann Visagie wrote: : : > The addition of the operating system check to the Netcraft survey must be a : > fairly new thing - I haven't seen that before. : > : > Now the question, _how_ do they do it? : : Don't know, but you can do it with /usr/ports/net/queso Queso is rather crap at operating system identification. I recently tried it on one system multiple times, and it reported back the correct os, then it reported the system firewalled, then it reported it as being an unknown os. You couldn't really trust what was reported back. If you're looking for something else that performs os identification, keep an eye out for nmap v2 (currently beta), which does a very nice job of it. Sample output below: Starting nmap V. 2.0-Beta8 by Fyodor (fyodor@dhp.com, www.insecure.org/nmap/) Interesting ports on the.cows.go.moo (x.x.x.x): Port State Protocol Service 23 open tcp telnet 25 open tcp smtp 110 open tcp pop3 111 open tcp sunrpc TCP Sequence Prediction: Class=random positive increments Difficulty=Worthy challenge; Seq Index=32896 (lower=eas ier) Remote operating system guess: Solaris 2.6 Nmap run completed -- 1 IP address (1 host up) scanned in 11 seconds Cheers, Nick -- Email: ncb05@uow.edu.au - http://rabble.uow.edu.au/~nick Key fingerprint = DE 30 33 D3 16 91 C8 8D A7 F8 70 03 B7 77 1A 2A To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 10 18:42:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA25467 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:42:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freedom.cybertouch.org (h24-64-143-218.mt.wave.shaw.ca [24.64.143.218] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA25462 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:42:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from beef@freedom.cybertouch.org) Received: from localhost (beef@localhost) by freedom.cybertouch.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA24726 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 21:42:09 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from beef@freedom.cybertouch.org) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 21:42:09 -0500 (EST) From: Lanny Baron To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Greg Lehey Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello everyone, I know most of you read Greg's mail and comments. I just wanted to say, Greg....YOU'RE THE BEST and keep on truckin..FreeBSD WILL REIGN KIng of os's. Lanny Baron Freedom Networking The Power of FreeBSD & Samba To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 10 19:08:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA28058 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:08:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA28042 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:08:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul2.u.washington.edu (root@saul2.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.21]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id TAA11264 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:08:23 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id TAA22287 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:08:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:08:03 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Greg Lehey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 10 Nov 1998, Lanny Baron wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I know most of you read Greg's mail and comments. > > I just wanted to say, Greg....YOU'RE THE BEST and keep on >truckin..FreeBSD WILL REIGN KIng of os's. Yeahhhh! Woooo! We love you Greg! Your Kung Fu is the best! You know all techniques! You know FreeBSD technique. Your Kung Fu is the best. (I would say more but I am not cute enough to be a groupie. :) ) Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 10 23:18:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA12982 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:18:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freedom.cybertouch.org (h24-64-143-218.mt.wave.shaw.ca [24.64.143.218] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA12976; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:18:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from beef@cybertouch.org) Received: from cybertouch.org (h24-64-143-236.mt.wave.shaw.ca [24.64.143.236] (may be forged)) by freedom.cybertouch.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA26362; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 02:17:49 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from beef@cybertouch.org) Message-ID: <364939FB.72948337@cybertouch.org> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 02:17:19 -0500 From: Lanny Baron Organization: Freedom Networks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: grog@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: re:Greg Lehey's Essay: Who's in control? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The essay Greg wrote can be found on http://www.lemis.com/x/unix-way-2.html Hello Greg, Well I have some comments about your Feedback Page. One thing that hit me fast and hard was a fact you stated. That is, alot of people drive, most however are not racing car drivers. If we take that to the world of computers, then the same rule applies. I enjoy driving my car. The limit on the highway is 100kph and I do 180kph. What does that mean (besides breaking the law)? I like things fast, easy and fun. Not to mention challenging. In the computer world, there are many times (due to my so-badly-wanting-to-know-all about the workings of FreeBSD) that I like the challenge. But then there is the side of me that likes to have "fun". Use the computer for ease of work. Now lets take this example with your experience with Excel or Word. Both those programs can be extremely hard to use. But then, the IMPORTANT part is there. The GUI. The eye candy that made billy boy the richest kid on the block. That one thing..the GUI...is what is in control. It's in control because the media has dictated it. The fact that you had or desired to learn Emacs or Xemacs is the same to a great extent as one who wants to learn to use Excel, Word, Access...there may be a lot of point and click, but you MUST know what you are doing to produce intelligible work. Not to mention useable work. I will return to the above in a minuet or two. With respect to a program like IBM's voice. I found it useless. (anyone out there want to teach me how to use it..it cant spell too good) That is like the now available (so i am told) coffee machine in which you say "coffee" and it begins to brew. Well are we now talking that we may as well loose the use of our hands, arms and legs? I rather doubt it. And yes there are many dead heads that like coming home from a hard day at the factory, beat the wife and kids, get drunk and go on their favorite news group (alt.binaries.sex..blah) and do intelligent work..maybe they are studying gynecology. Those users would think ls -a = lick, suck -all over. So to those that want to constantly run their cars on cruise control ....need not apply. On or back to the real problem. As Greg knows, I recently discovered in a discussion with Greg that there is a program or suite of programs which can turn a FreeBSD machine, into a move over NT and Novell, THE MACHINE IS HERE. I am 100% sure that there are even more programs like that in nature that make Unix OS's untouchable by the boys at Micro$oft. The problem as I see it and have stated it, is not that Emacs may be too difficult to learn to use. ( I don't know any Unix program that is like Excell..that means I..not that it doesnt exist) Or that creating spread sheets is undoable. The one single problem is ... MARKETING. I wonder if anyone out there in the FreeBSD community has undertaken to find out what makes a person buy a system like NT. Lets face it. The costs for a 15 user Novell system with Group Wise ..no hardware..is between $12,000.00 and $15,000.00. That is for licenses, software and installation. I am trying to get into this market and can charge a ton less. But then that's NOT the point either. It goes back to the same argument. The control Greg speaks of. It's the marketing, which lead to the final purchase, training and all the other goodies that come with those systems. Including the wad of cash you must be prepared to fork out. My proof of what I have said came to me yesterday. My future brother in law, who works for a fair size network company came to my condo. Only a month ago when on a friday night dinner at my g/f's (we ..all 40 of us..every friday) parents apt. were again talking about systems. He claims (now its claimed :-) that i was using the cart and horse..while the rest of the world was into the modern technology brought by Novell and then Micro$oft. (He did point out that NT is pure shit by the way) When I wanted to show him the Gui part of FreeBSD he simply said "that's nice..Unix is starting to get closer...he said "where is the file server" I thought he mean an ftp site like ftp.freebsd.org. Boy was I wrong. So after explaing to me what a file server does. I told him I would find out and after speaking to our MENTOR Greg Lehey, I was pointed in the right direction. So ...back to yesterday. He came over. I sat him down on my windoze box. (sorry to insult any of you) He logged in the windoze box with his username password and domain. Bing...up comes a box on the top left saying logging in to Windows NT. But wait..I don't have windoze NT. He went to network neiborhood and say all my pcs. Just like on a Nt or Novell Network. I then let him see with a multi PC controller that in fact there was NO wintoes NT or Novell. But there was FreeBSD (freedom and freedom2 wired and mrsmith) I told him to do a find (not find / -name) in wintows for winword.exe and a find for winamp.exe on my local drives. There was none to be found. So he knew that I did not have those binaries on my pc's. I told him to click on the top on the Icon for Word. He did. He opened a document from My Documents (of course, sitting on a FreeBSD box). He looked at me like ....lanny WTF??? He then ran to my sons room and logged in on mrsmsith with a different username and password. Did the same thing and when he opened the same document he saw that a box came up telling him the file was already opened. And that he could have a copy. He exclaimed...Lanny last month you did not know what a file server was and now you have a full blown file server and network. I said "if you say so...thats why I called you here." He said this was incredible. Now skipping a pile of stuff. The downside. He said that if he were to walk into a client and tell them about FreeBSD or my own...Freedom Networks..the persons who decide on buying from him would more than likely NOT pick FreeBSD. Why? He said because no one knows what or who FreeBSD is. Again, that comes down to the control. The controlling factor here is not the learning curve. For as many of you know, there are tons of schools offering (for a handsome fee) on how to use Excel, C, Word and so on. But I know of none to teach Emacs, SS or SC what ever you called that spread sheet. Not to mention a school for DNS, Apache, and so on. But then, schools want students. Students want jobs, and many jobs want you to know ms or novell products. In essence what I am saying is, that yes, an air head will continue a life of air headiness. And people who are serious in there jobs will work hard at it. But at the same time, those users like ease of use. At least in there minds those menu after menu is easier than doing /usr/local/sbin/dhcpc -interface de0 (and possibly an ton of flags that i don't know) Where as if the person knows they need dhcpc and then the menu's pop up for the flags and the device to apply them too...then you are in the same light as that to which they are now accustomed to and like. And more times than not, the user who is pretty good will find out they can do the same on a command line much quicker than by a menu driven system. Don't take this as a blow to FreeBSD. Rather as an imput to where I think FreeBSD should try to put some attention to. And of course, a great deal of attention to marketing. Regards.... Lanny Baron To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 10 23:46:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA16639 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:46:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from luomat.peak.org (port-21-ts2-gnv.da.fdt.net [209.212.132.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA16620 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:46:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luomat@luomat.peak.org) Message-Id: <199811101223.HAA09493@ocalhost> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19981110090436.07651@welearn.com.au> From: Timothy J Luoma Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 07:23:00 -0500 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env References: <19981110090436.07651@welearn.com.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Author: Sue Blake Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:04:36 +1100 ID: <19981110090436.07651@welearn.com.au> > The one and only essential is the up arrow for command history, > and I reckon that's the real reason why many of new installers > wish it had bash. All the other shell features can go jump for > the first few months, but command history is essential and csh > doesn't cut it, not by a long shot. Tab-completion saves many many keystrokes and typos. Being able to move to the left&right along the current line is very nice. Being able to write a function at the commandline is quite helpful. Those are reasons why sh isn't enough for me, and why zsh is the default shell on my NeXTStep machines. TjL To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 10 23:46:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA16669 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:46:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from luomat.peak.org (port-21-ts2-gnv.da.fdt.net [209.212.132.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA16646 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:46:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luomat@luomat.peak.org) Message-Id: <199811101218.HAA09442@ocalhost> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7819.910633456@time.cdrom.com> From: Timothy J Luoma Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 07:18:18 -0500 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env References: <7819.910633456@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Author: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 09:44:16 -0800 ID: <7819.910633456@time.cdrom.com> > > It is astonishing to me that FreeBSD continues to ship with a two > > default shells that are not good for interactive use and an out-of-date > > window manager, and remains relatively difficult to get up and running > > in critical areas, specifically graphics, printing, sound, and communica- > > tions. > > Not so astonishing - it's quite clear by these results that the number > of people who actually CARE about this must be very small indeed. Um.... there are those of us who don't have someone they can call on the phone to get help setting these things up, and therefore don't install FreeBSD at all. I know of at least one person intimidated by ending up with a "login: " prompt, only to be followed by a "#" prompt (or whatever it is) with no experience setting up X and no idea what all the varius windowing packages are called and what differentiates one from another. TjL To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 11 00:38:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA21234 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 00:38:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.cityip.co.za (ns.cityip.co.za [196.25.223.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA21215 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 00:38:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wjv@cityip.co.za) Received: from wjv by ns.cityip.co.za with local (Exim 2.05 #1) id 0zdVmC-00012I-00; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:37:20 +0200 Message-ID: <19981111103720.A3963@cityip.co.za> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:37:20 +0200 From: Johann Visagie To: Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting: Microsoft tried to move Hotmail to NT and failed. References: <3647B9E7.BCC59A27@airnet.net> <19981110155600.B499@freebie.lemis.com> <19981110095540.A1100@cityip.co.za> <19981111103444.N18183@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19981111103444.N18183@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Wed, Nov 11, 1998 at 10:34:44AM +1030 X-PGP: ftp://ftp.cityip.co.za/users/wjv/pubkey.asc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 at 10:34 SAST, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Tuesday, 10 November 1998 at 9:55:40 +0200, Johann Visagie wrote: > > > > Now the question, _how_ do they do it? They correctly identify my Web server > > as running FreeBSD, and yet I didn't see any connections or attempted > > connections, except for the expected "HEAD / HTTP/1.0" query to the httpd. > > Right. I saw this, too. They *don't* identify the operating system > for my web server. > > > Let me dig deeper... > > Please do, and publish your results. My digging led me directly to "queso" (in the ports, category "net"). (I _had_ heard of queso before, but its name escaped me when I made my posting yesterday.) The outline of queso's methodology is succinctly described on its home page at: http://www.apostols.org/projectz/queso/ Reading the above page, one can at least form a very clear picture as to how the OS identification process works. However, there are a number of queso gateways on the Web (such as the one at http://mailsearch.particle.net/), and these seem to indicate that queso _can't_ identify the very same server that Netcraft did as running FreeBSD. Errr... gosh. As I was typing the above I tried the gateway at mailsearch.particle.net again, and whereas yesterday it said the machine ran an unidentified OS, today it identifies it as "FreeBSD, NetBSD or OpenBSD". Anyway, I would assume the Netcraft query engine uses similar methods as queso. Maybe it just does it a little better. If anyone is interested I can send them a tcpdump of the transaction between the Netcraft server and mine (and it seemed to connect solely to the HTTP port), though it's easy enough for anyone to point Netcraft at one of their own servers, of course. -- V Johann Visagie | wjv@CityIP.co.za | Tel: +27 21 419-7878 | ICQ: 20645559 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 11 02:36:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA29967 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 02:36:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cons.org (knight.cons.org [194.233.237.86]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA29962 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 02:36:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cracauer@cons.org) Received: (from cracauer@localhost) by cons.org (8.8.8/8.7.3) id LAA09804; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 11:35:02 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <19981111113501.B9740@cons.org> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 11:35:01 +0100 From: Martin Cracauer To: Phillip Salzman , Martin Cracauer Cc: Yarema , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env References: <19981110151438.A15464@cons.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Phillip Salzman on Tue, Nov 10, 1998 at 07:16:09PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm just adding noise in replying, but anyway... In , Phillip Salzman wrote: > > I don't think that makes sense. bash2 is now the "standard" shell for > > userfriendly Unix accounts (and works well, BTW). If we ship a > > slightly different default shell, we'll be flooded with PRs from > > people used to bash. And zsh has quite some subtle differences (IMHO, > > it is much worse than bash2). > > Bash is far from standard. Just a lot of people use it, and some > like it. sh and csh are the standards. Yesyesyes, but: - For basic sh functionality, zsh does not implement what Posix sais a /bin/sh should do while bash2 does pretty well. - When people are used to extended features, they are used to bash features. If they happend to use zsh or whatever they probably know how to install a shell themself. > Shipping with bash as the default shell is utterly stupid, > expecially for an OS like FreeBSD. I didn't say default shell. The /bin/sh that is used by the base system (startup, scripts etc.) shouldn't be bash. But if the 'easy2use' port is installed on the system, 'adduser' or a GUI equivalent should use bash2 as the default shell for new accounts. > > And I don't think the license matters that much in this case, > > either. A more comfortable shell is for those people who want it and > > as long as the system still runs when you remove it, a GPL software is > > fine. > > > The license has a lot to do with it. We cannot ship with bash > installed by default because we run off of the ``Berkeley Style'' license. > This differs a lot from GPL, and you cannot split an OS up into two > different licenses. > > We can, infact, offer it as a third party software enhancement. > Like we do now, via the ports/packages. Maybe something at the end of the > installation saying "Would you like to include a more userfriendly shell?" > or of the sort. You are misleaded. Would you please count the number of GPL programs we ship as part of the base system? Also, I want bash2 as default for new accounts if a certain port is installed, so bash2 could stay a port as well. > > ports//easy2use > > which depends on X11, bash2, fvwm2/95, some file browser, a stupid X > > editor, less, a Web browser with default to > > /usr/share/doc/handbook/index.html, Mail and News reader. Just use the > > most commonly used tools (see logfile from wcarchive for > > pub/FreeBSD/packages). > > > > not fvwm95, eww! ;) But something basically of the sort - but it > will be rolled out and designed for FreeBSD. Something like that. "Designed for FreeBSD"? The desktop I have in mind would be pretty OS neutral, except for some Chuck pictures here and there. And it's speed if 4 ghostscripts run simultaneous, of course :-) Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer http://www.cons.org/cracauer Tel.: (private) +4940 5221829 Fax.: (private) +4940 5228536 Paper: (private) Waldstrasse 200, 22846 Norderstedt, Germany To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 11 03:00:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA01786 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 03:00:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rucus.ru.ac.za (rucus.ru.ac.za [146.231.29.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA01697 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 02:58:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za) Received: (qmail 1807 invoked by uid 1003); 11 Nov 1998 10:57:55 -0000 Message-ID: <19981111125755.A26453@rucus.ru.ac.za> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:57:55 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Eivind Eklund Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env References: <19981110090436.07651@welearn.com.au> <19981109232410.01531@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19981109232410.01531@follo.net>; from Eivind Eklund on Mon, Nov 09, 1998 at 11:24:10PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon 1998-11-09 (23:24), Eivind Eklund wrote: > It lacks completion. That's the most important part. That's IMHO > essential. Apart from that, I like the ability of zsh to do more > advanced pattern matching, but that isn't as essential as as the lack > of completion (and every shell I know of except zsh lack full > completion - zsh can complete _everything_ - globs, shell escapes, > history escapes, cvs - you name it, zsh can complete it :-) With tcsh - (nbm@rucus) /home/nbm> ls *ep* ^X-* (nbm@rucus) /home/nbm> ls step-members (nbm@rucus) /home/nbm> find -n name ncpio newer nogroup nouser (nbm@rucus) /home/nbm> echo $PA PAGER PATH (nbm@rucus) /home/nbm> echo !-5 echo ls ls (nbm@rucus) /home/nbm/package> make all clean install rootie.o uptbump.o useless.o (nbm@rucus) /home/nbm> kill 10210 16121 16998 23864 etc etc and just for EE, (nbm@rucus) /home/nbm> cvs checkout commit export import rdiff remove update etc etc I miss anything? (there are other features, but I've not yet worked them all out.) Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 11 03:39:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA05001 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 03:39:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA04996 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 03:39:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from fenja.ifi.uio.no (2602@fenja.ifi.uio.no [129.240.65.174]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id MAA01840; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:38:23 +0100 (MET) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by fenja.ifi.uio.no ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:38:23 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Nicholas Charles Brawn Cc: jack , Johann Visagie , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting: Microsoft tried to move Hotmail to NT and failed. References: Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 11 Nov 1998 12:38:22 +0100 In-Reply-To: Nicholas Charles Brawn's message of "Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:53:29 +1100 (EST)" Message-ID: Lines: 16 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id DAA04997 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nicholas Charles Brawn writes: > If you're looking for something else that performs os identification, > keep an eye out for nmap v2 (currently beta), which does a very nice job > of it. Sample output below: >From http://www.insecure.org/nmap/: "Windows was intentionally excluded from the table because I don't currently have any intention of porting to NT/95. I suggest an upgrade to one of the many supported operating systems or don't use nmap." :) DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 11 03:43:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA05499 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 03:43:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.cityip.co.za (ns.cityip.co.za [196.25.223.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA05472 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 03:43:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wjv@cityip.co.za) Received: from wjv by ns.cityip.co.za with local (Exim 2.05 #1) id 0zdYf7-0001K9-00; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 13:42:13 +0200 Message-ID: <19981111134213.A5075@cityip.co.za> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 13:42:13 +0200 From: Johann Visagie To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_C=2E_Sm=F8rgrav_?= Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting: Microsoft tried to move Hotmail to NT and failed. References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3Cxzpr9vaqx1t=2Efsf=40fenja=2Eifi=2Euio=2Eno=3E=3B_from_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_C=2E_Sm=F8rgrav__on_Wed=2C_Nov_11=2C_1998_at_1?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?2:38:22PM_+0100?= X-PGP: ftp://ftp.cityip.co.za/users/wjv/pubkey.asc Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id DAA05489 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 at 12:38 SAST, Dag-Erling C. Smørgrav wrote: > > From http://www.insecure.org/nmap/: > > "Windows was intentionally excluded from the table because I don't > currently have any intention of porting to NT/95. I suggest an upgrade > to one of the many supported operating systems or don't use nmap." *grin* Can anyone cast some light on the two remaining question marks next to FreeBSD's name on the table of capabilities on the above-mentioned page? -- V Johann Visagie | wjv@CityIP.co.za | Tel: +27 21 419-7878 | ICQ: 20645559 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 11 03:46:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA05943 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 03:46:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA05927 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 03:46:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from fenja.ifi.uio.no (2602@fenja.ifi.uio.no [129.240.65.174]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id MAA02956; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:46:20 +0100 (MET) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by fenja.ifi.uio.no ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:46:19 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Timothy J Luoma Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env References: <19981110090436.07651@welearn.com.au> <199811101223.HAA09493@ocalhost> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 11 Nov 1998 12:46:18 +0100 In-Reply-To: Timothy J Luoma's message of "Tue, 10 Nov 1998 07:23:00 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 16 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id DAA05931 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Timothy J Luoma writes: > Tab-completion saves many many keystrokes and typos. Yes. I wouldn't think it'd be too much work to add this to sh. > Being able to move to the left&right along the current line is very nice. You can do that in sh. > Being able to write a function at the commandline is quite helpful. You can do that in sh. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 11 04:31:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA12017 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 04:31:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bamboo.ints.ml.org (intschool.easynet.co.uk [194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA12009 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 04:30:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from stuart@ints.ml.org) Received: (from stuart@localhost) by bamboo.ints.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA13117; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:30:46 GMT (envelope-from stuart) Message-ID: <19981111123045.A12868@helan.org> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:30:45 +0000 From: Stuart Henderson To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_C=2E_Sm=F8rgrav_?= , Timothy J Luoma Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env References: <19981110090436.07651@welearn.com.au> <199811101223.HAA09493@ocalhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3Cxzppvauqwol=2Efsf=40fenja=2Eifi=2Euio=2Eno=3E=3B_from_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_C=2E_Sm=F8rgrav__on_Wed=2C_Nov_11=2C_1998_at_1?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?2:46:18PM_+0100?= Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Nov 11, 1998 at 12:46:18PM +0100, Dag-Erling C. Smørgrav wrote: > > Tab-completion saves many many keystrokes and typos. > Yes. I wouldn't think it'd be too much work to add this to sh. Yes, it's probably the only thing people who don't yet know how to install a new shell are likely to miss from any of the more complicated shells (even NT's shell does command completion if you know the right magic). It would be nice if this could be hooked through histedit or at least made to work the same as in ftp (the main point being, either with or without trailing / for directories but congruent between the two; for example bash uses / but ftp doesn't, and that's annoying). imho it would also be nice to see some editing and completion capabilities added to samba's smbclient, but I guess this is the wrong place for that :) It seems to me that more useful ideas are coming out for X desktops now that people know that their contributions aren't just going to help someone else win a prize! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 11 04:58:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA13946 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 04:58:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ninbox.ml.org (hsv1-191.airnet.net [207.242.81.191]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA13896 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 04:56:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ninbox.ml.org (8.9.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA04164 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 06:53:37 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <364988D0.666869E5@airnet.net> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 06:53:36 -0600 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Absolutely None! X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting: Microsoft tried to move Hotmail to NT and failed. References: <3647B9E7.BCC59A27@airnet.net> <19981110155600.B499@freebie.lemis.com> <19981110095540.A1100@cityip.co.za> <19981110115539.A6963@helan.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Stuart Henderson wrote: > It doesn't guess the OS on freebsd-online.ml.org (apache 1.2.5) but it > does for www.kernel.org (also using apache 1.2.5). For some reason, my server wouldn't behave. I'm in the process of reinstalling Apache, and trying to figure out why it didn't work to begin with. Guess who has freebsd.dyn.ml.org. ;-) -- Kris Kirby UAH Mail UAH CS Home WWW ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 11 05:01:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA14064 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 05:01:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ninbox.ml.org (hsv1-191.airnet.net [207.242.81.191]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA14059 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 05:01:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ninbox.ml.org (8.9.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA04174; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 06:56:39 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36498985.C8FF54D@airnet.net> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 06:56:37 -0600 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Absolutely None! X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting: Microsoft tried to move Hotmail to NT and failed. References: <3647B9E7.BCC59A27@airnet.net> <19981110155600.B499@freebie.lemis.com> <19981110095540.A1100@cityip.co.za> <19981111103444.N18183@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > Right. I saw this, too. They *don't* identify the operating system > for my web server. I thought this was interesting too. Most of the pages I could think of were running a Linux or *BSD* based system. www.microsoft.com was running IIS/4.0 on NT _3.5_. -- Kris Kirby UAH Mail UAH CS Home WWW ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 11 05:15:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA15071 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 05:15:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bamboo.ints.ml.org (intschool.easynet.co.uk [194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA15066 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 05:15:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from stuart@ints.ml.org) Received: (from stuart@localhost) by bamboo.ints.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA13443; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 13:15:27 GMT (envelope-from stuart) Message-ID: <19981111131526.C12868@helan.org> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 13:15:26 +0000 From: Stuart Henderson To: Kris Kirby , Greg Lehey Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting: Microsoft tried to move Hotmail to NT and failed. References: <3647B9E7.BCC59A27@airnet.net> <19981110155600.B499@freebie.lemis.com> <19981110095540.A1100@cityip.co.za> <19981111103444.N18183@freebie.lemis.com> <36498985.C8FF54D@airnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <36498985.C8FF54D@airnet.net>; from Kris Kirby on Wed, Nov 11, 1998 at 06:56:37AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Nov 11, 1998 at 06:56:37AM -0600, Kris Kirby wrote: > I thought this was interesting too. Most of the pages I could think of > were running a Linux or *BSD* based system. www.microsoft.com was > running IIS/4.0 on NT _3.5_. Not surprised. I have uptimes on the NT 3.5 box here that are as good as the FreeBSD boxes. NT 4 was only a little better than Win95 when I tried it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 11 07:34:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA26576 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:34:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA26567 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:34:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA24888; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 16:34:07 +0100 (CET) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id QAA26795; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 16:34:01 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19981111163400.14162@follo.net> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 16:34:00 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: Neil Blakey-Milner Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env References: <19981110090436.07651@welearn.com.au> <19981109232410.01531@follo.net> <19981111125755.A26453@rucus.ru.ac.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19981111125755.A26453@rucus.ru.ac.za>; from Neil Blakey-Milner on Wed, Nov 11, 1998 at 12:57:55PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Nov 11, 1998 at 12:57:55PM +0200, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > On Mon 1998-11-09 (23:24), Eivind Eklund wrote: > > It lacks completion. That's the most important part. That's IMHO > > essential. Apart from that, I like the ability of zsh to do more > > advanced pattern matching, but that isn't as essential as as the lack > > of completion (and every shell I know of except zsh lack full > > completion - zsh can complete _everything_ - globs, shell escapes, > > history escapes, cvs - you name it, zsh can complete it :-) [...] > I miss anything? (there are other features, but I've not yet worked them all > out.) I miss completion of patterns: eivind(bitbox)--% ls /etc/ppp/* /etc/ppp/ppp.conf /etc/ppp/ppp.conf.server.sample /etc/ppp/ppp.pap.dialup.sample /etc/ppp/ppp.conf.filter.sample /etc/ppp/ppp.conf~ /etc/ppp/ppp.secret.sample /etc/ppp/ppp.conf.iij /etc/ppp/ppp.dialup.sample /etc/ppp/sysinstall.debug /etc/ppp/ppp.conf.iij.sample /etc/ppp/ppp.linkup /etc/ppp/ppp.conf.sample /etc/ppp/ppp.linkup.sample eivind(bitbox)--% ls /etc/ppp/ppp.conf /etc/ppp/ppp.conf.filter.sample /etc/ppp/ppp.conf.iij /etc/ppp/ppp.conf.iij.sample /etc/ppp/ppp.conf.sample /etc/ppp/ppp.conf.server.sample /etc/ppp/ppp.conf\~ /etc/ppp/ppp.dialup.sample /etc/ppp/ppp.linkup /etc/ppp/ppp.linkup.sample /etc/ppp/ppp.pap.dialup.sample /etc/ppp/ppp.secret.sample /etc/ppp/sysinstall.debug where the last line is done by arrow-up and (unless this was that you meant with you *ep* example? I've never gotten it to work in tcsh, at least). I miss completion of "backticks": eivind(bitbox)--% echo $(cat /etc/dm.conf) gives eivind(bitbox)--% echo \# \# Game Control File \# @\(\#\)dm.conf 5.5 \(Berkeley\) 4/12/89 \# \# TTYNAME \# badtty /dev/tty19 \# news \# badtty /dev/tty20 \# news/mail \# DAY OF WEEK START STOP \# time Monday 7 16 \# 7am to 4pm \# time Tuesday 7 16 \# time Wednesday 7 16 \# time Thursday 7 16 \# time Friday 7 16 \# GAME MAX LOAD MAX USERS PRIORITY \# default must be the last entry for the \`\`game\'\' keyword game default 5 \* \* I miss completion of history escapes, where eivind(bitbox)--% echo garble garble eivind(bitbox)--% echo testing:; !echo gives eivind(bitbox)--% echo testing:; echo garble ... and I desperately miss the ability to type foreach statements on a single line. I never got that to work in tcsh, and haven't seen anybody else that have, either (and I have asked quite a few tcsh users about this). Those things are the main reasons I switched from tcsh to zsh as my interactive shell. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 11 08:56:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA07041 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:56:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ninbox.ml.org (hsv1-177.airnet.net [207.242.81.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA07034 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:56:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ninbox.ml.org (8.9.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA04545; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:09:38 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3649A8AF.935FCE0B@airnet.net> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:09:36 -0600 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Absolutely None! X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stuart Henderson CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting: Microsoft tried to move Hotmail to NT and failed. References: <3647B9E7.BCC59A27@airnet.net> <19981110155600.B499@freebie.lemis.com> <19981110095540.A1100@cityip.co.za> <19981111103444.N18183@freebie.lemis.com> <36498985.C8FF54D@airnet.net> <19981111131526.C12868@helan.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Stuart Henderson wrote: > Not surprised. I have uptimes on the NT 3.5 box here that are as > good as the FreeBSD boxes. NT 4 was only a little better than Win95 > when I tried it. I guess "newversion-itis" hit Microsoft. It seems they had a proven product and went and made it worse. I had a converstation with some friends about how bad NT 4 sucks and it was greatly discussed that Bill Gates has enough money to basically say: "Were going to give you this inferior product and you're going to like it, or at least be forced to use it." Gee, I wonder why I suddenly have this urge to scream "Via La Free Software!". Apoligies to those who speak French. On a side note, I'm using Netscape on top of X on a 75MHz AMD-K5 and listening to a .WAV file of 44KHz, 16-bit audio play in the background. It's only using ~7% of the CPU play the audio. Decent. Oh yeah, switching to FreeBSD 3.0 brought the overhead down 3% from what it was before. At least I can do something know while I listen to my ripped songs... -- Kris Kirby UAH Mail UAH CS Home WWW ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 11 09:37:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11767 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:37:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA11752; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:37:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA25921; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:37:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA17412; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:37:09 -0700 Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:37:09 -0700 Message-Id: <199811111737.KAA17412@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Peter Wemm Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lkm/joy Makefile In-Reply-To: <199811110704.XAA24840@freefall.freebsd.org> References: <199811110704.XAA24840@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ Moved to -chat ] Peter Wemm writes: > peter 1998/11/10 23:04:49 PST > > Modified files: > lkm/joy Makefile > Log: > Install kld version (there can be only one) So, did you lop off the head of the old version? [ For those of you missing the humor, Peter (intentionally??) quoted a line from HighLander ] Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 11 09:55:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA13581 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:55:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA13569 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:55:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from grjottunagard.ifi.uio.no (2602@grjottunagard.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.131]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id SAA19014; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:54:05 +0100 (MET) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by grjottunagard.ifi.uio.no ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:54:04 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kirby Cc: Stuart Henderson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting: Microsoft tried to move Hotmail to NT and failed. References: <3647B9E7.BCC59A27@airnet.net> <19981110155600.B499@freebie.lemis.com> <19981110095540.A1100@cityip.co.za> <19981111103444.N18183@freebie.lemis.com> <36498985.C8FF54D@airnet.net> <19981111131526.C12868@helan.org> <3649A8AF.935FCE0B@airnet.net> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 11 Nov 1998 18:54:03 +0100 In-Reply-To: Kris Kirby's message of "Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:09:36 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 9 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id JAA13576 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kirby writes: > Gee, I wonder why I suddenly have this urge to scream "Via La > Free Software!". Apoligies to those who speak French. You mean that sentence is supposed to be French? *boggle* DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 11 10:02:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA14195 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:02:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles229.castles.com [208.214.165.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA14189 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:02:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA04084; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:59:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199811111759.JAA04084@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Stuart Henderson cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_C=2E_Sm=F8rgrav_?= , Timothy J Luoma , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:30:45 GMT." <19981111123045.A12868@helan.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:59:16 -0800 From: Mike Smith Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id KAA14191 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It would be nice if this could be hooked through histedit or at least > made to work the same as in ftp (the main point being, either with or > without trailing / for directories but congruent between the two; for > example bash uses / but ftp doesn't, and that's annoying). Ftp can't tell whether what it's just completed is a directory or not without chdir'ing into it. That might well be unacceptably slow. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 11 10:14:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA15386 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:14:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell2.ba.best.com (shell2.ba.best.com [206.184.139.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA15381 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:14:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@shell2.ba.best.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by shell2.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) id KAA04400; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:13:17 -0800 (PST) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <199811111813.KAA04400@shell2.ba.best.com> Subject: Head count for Thursday BAFUG meeting To: announce@bafug.org Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:13:17 -0800 (PST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Heads up! I need a head count of those who are planing on attending Thursday BAFUG. This will allow me to figure out how much pizza, soda, and coffee to get. I could use this by noon on Thursday. Since PacBell can't figure out how maintain a POTS line in San Bruno my normal Internet connection is dead. (#@*%^@& !!) Please reply to either jgrosch@best.com or nicole@mediacity.com Thanks Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 11 10:41:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA18429 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:41:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ninbox.ml.org (hsv1-177.airnet.net [207.242.81.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA18424 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:41:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ninbox.ml.org (8.9.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA00764; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:37:36 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3649D96E.36230316@airnet.net> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:37:35 -0600 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Absolutely None! X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Dag-Erling C. Smørgrav" CC: Stuart Henderson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting: Microsoft tried to move Hotmail to NT and failed. References: <3647B9E7.BCC59A27@airnet.net> <19981110155600.B499@freebie.lemis.com> <19981110095540.A1100@cityip.co.za> <19981111103444.N18183@freebie.lemis.com> <36498985.C8FF54D@airnet.net> <19981111131526.C12868@helan.org> <3649A8AF.935FCE0B@airnet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling C. Smørgrav wrote: > > Kris Kirby writes: > > Gee, I wonder why I suddenly have this urge to scream "Via La > > Free Software!". Apoligies to those who speak French. > > You mean that sentence is supposed to be French? *boggle* My apoligies; It should read "Viva La Free Software!". /brain: pid 4690 (hit_v_key), uid 0: exited on signal 11 (core dumped) /brain: pid 4690 (hit_v_key), uid 0 on /: file system full panic... -- Kris Kirby UAH Mail UAH CS Home WWW ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 11 10:45:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA18962 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:45:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA18953 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:45:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from grjottunagard.ifi.uio.no (2602@grjottunagard.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.131]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id TAA26281; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:44:21 +0100 (MET) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by grjottunagard.ifi.uio.no ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:44:19 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kirby Cc: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Dag?= -Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav=22?=" , Stuart Henderson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting: Microsoft tried to move Hotmail to NT and failed. References: <3647B9E7.BCC59A27@airnet.net> <19981110155600.B499@freebie.lemis.com> <19981110095540.A1100@cityip.co.za> <19981111103444.N18183@freebie.lemis.com> <36498985.C8FF54D@airnet.net> <19981111131526.C12868@helan.org> <3649A8AF.935FCE0B@airnet.net> <3649D96E.36230316@airnet.net> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 11 Nov 1998 19:44:18 +0100 In-Reply-To: Kris Kirby's message of "Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:37:35 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 13 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id KAA18957 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kirby writes: > Dag-Erling C. Smørgrav wrote: > > Kris Kirby writes: > > > Gee, I wonder why I suddenly have this urge to scream "Via La > > > Free Software!". Apoligies to those who speak French. > > You mean that sentence is supposed to be French? *boggle* > My apoligies; It should read "Viva La Free Software!". Uh, no :) that's Spanish, or something, but not French. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 11 16:50:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA29023 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 16:50:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from luomat.peak.org (port-13-ts3-gnv.da.fdt.net [209.212.132.108]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA28982 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 16:50:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luomat@luomat.peak.org) Message-Id: <199811112136.QAA17079@ocalhost> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: From: Timothy J Luoma Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 16:36:38 -0500 To: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. Smorgrav ) Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19981110090436.07651@welearn.com.au> <199811101223.HAA09493@ocalhost> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Author: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. Smorgrav ) Date: 11 Nov 1998 12:46:18 +0100 ID: > Timothy J Luoma writes: > > Tab-completion saves many many keystrokes and typos. > > Yes. I wouldn't think it'd be too much work to add this to sh. But it already exists in zsh > > Being able to move to the left&right along the current line is very nice. > > You can do that in sh. Not the sh on my NeXT, not without deleting stuff > > Being able to write a function at the commandline is quite helpful. > > You can do that in sh. Not the sh on my NeXT Sounds like you've already got a more functional sh than the "standard" sh (if such a thing can still be said to exist) TjL To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 11 17:07:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA00890 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:07:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA00885 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:07:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from grjottunagard.ifi.uio.no (2602@grjottunagard.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.131]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id CAA10419; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 02:07:11 +0100 (MET) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by grjottunagard.ifi.uio.no ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 02:07:10 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Timothy J Luoma Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env References: <19981110090436.07651@welearn.com.au> <199811101223.HAA09493@ocalhost> <199811112136.QAA17079@ocalhost> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 12 Nov 1998 02:07:09 +0100 In-Reply-To: Timothy J Luoma's message of "Wed, 11 Nov 1998 16:36:38 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 32 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id RAA00886 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Timothy J Luoma writes: > > Timothy J Luoma writes: > > > Tab-completion saves many many keystrokes and typos. > > Yes. I wouldn't think it'd be too much work to add this to sh. > But it already exists in zsh Adding functionality to sh (I might add, functionality which does not interfere with the command parser / interpreter part of sh) is a hell of a lot less work than trying to figure out all the compatibility implications of replacing it with zsh or nameyourfavoritesh. > > > Being able to move to the left&right along the current line is very nice. > > You can do that in sh. > Not the sh on my NeXT, not without deleting stuff See that Cc: line up there? It says we're not discussing NeXT :) > > > Being able to write a function at the commandline is quite helpful. > > You can do that in sh. > Not the sh on my NeXT See above. > Sounds like you've already got a more functional sh than the "standard" sh > (if such a thing can still be said to exist) To the best of my understanding, there is a "standard sh", but it's proprietary. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 11 17:34:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA03559 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:34:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA03554 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:34:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from grjottunagard.ifi.uio.no (2602@grjottunagard.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.131]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id CAA12528; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 02:34:25 +0100 (MET) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by grjottunagard.ifi.uio.no ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 02:34:24 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: john cooper Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCSI vs. DMA33.. References: <98Nov11.134648jst.21907@ns.isi.co.jp> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 12 Nov 1998 02:34:24 +0100 In-Reply-To: john cooper's message of "Wed, 11 Nov 1998 13:41:00 +0900" Message-ID: Lines: 22 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id RAA03555 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org john cooper writes: > Just wondering if anyone has any _objective_ opinion on ------------------- Hey, I think that's an oxymoron :) opin.ion (n) (*-'pin-y*n) Etymology: ME, fr. MF, fr. L i[opinion-], i[opinio]; akin to L i[opinari] 1) a) n, a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter b) n, APPROVAL, ESTEEM 2) a) n, belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge: JUDGMENT b) n, a generally held or popular view 3) a) n, a formal expression by an expert of his judgment or advice b) n, the formal expression of the legal reasons and principles upon which a legal decision is based DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 11 17:44:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA04388 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:44:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from luomat.peak.org (port-15-ts3-gnv.da.fdt.net [209.212.132.110]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA04383 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:44:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luomat@luomat.peak.org) Message-Id: <199811120144.UAA21452@ocalhost> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: From: Timothy J Luoma Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 20:44:15 -0500 To: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. Smorgrav ) Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19981110090436.07651@welearn.com.au> <199811101223.HAA09493@ocalhost> <199811112136.QAA17079@ocalhost> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Author: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. Smorgrav ) Date: 12 Nov 1998 02:07:09 +0100 ID: > > > > Tab-completion saves many many keystrokes and typos. > > > Yes. I wouldn't think it'd be too much work to add this to sh. > > But it already exists in zsh > > Adding functionality to sh (I might add, functionality which does not > interfere with the command parser / interpreter part of sh) is a hell > of a lot less work than trying to figure out all the compatibility > implications of replacing it with zsh or nameyourfavoritesh. We were talking about newbies for one thing, ie what FBSD ships with. Rather than reinventing what already exists in zsh, why not just include zsh? > See that Cc: line up there? It says we're not discussing NeXT :) Wow, thanks for pointing that out.... We were talking about the difference in sh and zsh. I can only speak to that from my experience, which isn't under FreeBSD > > Sounds like you've already got a more functional sh than the "standard" > > sh (if such a thing can still be said to exist) > > To the best of my understanding, there is a "standard sh", but it's > proprietary. And to the best of my understanding, the "standard" sh doesn't have many of the features you have mentioned. It just doesn't seem to be very useful to recode the wheel. TjL To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 11 18:06:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA06594 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:06:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat0574.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.190.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA06589 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:06:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA28054; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:05:33 -0400 (AST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:05:33 -0400 (AST) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Brian Feldman cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: StarOffice-5.0... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Moved to Chat... On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, Brian Feldman wrote: > > Keep up the good work Brian...the longer I can avoid installing a > > Linux system to get its commercial apps, the happier I will be. With > > Thanks! Positive response makes work worth doing :) Anything to stem the grow tsunami called Linux is worth doing :) > > attitudes like "don't waste your time" vs "its being worked on", I fear > > that that day is fast approaching where I'll have to buy a third machine > > just to keep from having to run Windows to get the good apps :( > > > > Happily, I've been able to be entirely Windows-free! StarOffice 4.0 (no > service pack level) completes my needs :) 5.0's gonna work soon... I haven't had a chance to see it yet, but the Linux guys at work say that 5.0 gives full Office97 functionality? PowerPoint demonstrations with full animiations and the works? Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 11 18:21:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA08246 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:21:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat0574.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.190.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA08238 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:21:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA27653; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 20:54:43 -0400 (AST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 20:54:42 -0400 (AST) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Andrzej Bialecki cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Linux emulation Re: StarOffice-5.0... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Moved to -chat... On Thu, 12 Nov 1998, Andrzej Bialecki wrote: > On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > > Just curious, but what exactly does that '/proc/*/cmdline' thing > > "do", and is there any reason why it is inappropriate for it to be a > > standard part of our /proc? > > It\s just a copy of the argv[0]. Why the programs can\t access their > argv[0] instead is beyond me - looks like a very stupid thing... Agreed...but, if there a reason to *not* incorporate it? > > When talkign with friends that use Linux, and talking about our > > /proc file system, they think its hilarious that I can't go into proc and > > find out what irqs are being used by the system...maybe I'm missing > > something, but about the only way I can do it currently is to look through > > dmesg output? Is there another way? > > >From my POV, it's hilarious to go to /proc to read the hardware > parameters of the system - the name "proc" is supposed to mean "info > related to processes", isn't it? Agreed...so, now, what do we have? We have this *great* operating system built upon several years of stable code that can't run what is probably one of the most monumental software packages (free software packages, at that) that makes the difference between whether or not FreeBSD can go anywhere except in the machine room as a server... ...all because adding /proc/*/cmdline is basically putting more information into /proc then /proc "means"? Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 11 18:53:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA11246 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:53:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat0574.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.190.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA11240 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:53:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA28259; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:52:45 -0400 (AST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:52:44 -0400 (AST) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Mike Smith cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: StarOffice-5.0... In-Reply-To: <199811120236.SAA06936@dingo.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Moved to -chat On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, Mike Smith wrote: > I have to ask - why do you care? I can think of much better things to > do with my time than stare at the list of IRQ's in use - what do they > expect them to do? A little song and dance number perhaps? Well, in the case of the IRQs, I don't much care...but its one of those "does it harm anything to *have* that information in /proc"? > (If you need the information, try 'systat -vmstat'.) Cool, never knew about that one, thanks :) I learn a new thing each and every time I get into these conversations :( Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 11 18:58:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA11756 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:58:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles78.castles.com [208.214.165.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA11723 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:58:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA07080; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:55:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199811120255.SAA07080@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: The Hermit Hacker cc: Mike Smith , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: StarOffice-5.0... In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:52:44 -0400." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:55:16 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Moved to -chat > > > On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, Mike Smith wrote: > > > I have to ask - why do you care? I can think of much better things to > > do with my time than stare at the list of IRQ's in use - what do they > > expect them to do? A little song and dance number perhaps? > > Well, in the case of the IRQs, I don't much care...but its one of > those "does it harm anything to *have* that information in /proc"? It's the wrong place, and sets a bad precedent. Our "kitchen sink" parametric access mechanism is sysctl(). It's probably reasonable to mount that as a filesystem somewhere, but it is fundamentally wrong to abuse procfs for that. > > (If you need the information, try 'systat -vmstat'.) > > Cool, never knew about that one, thanks :) I learn a new thing > each and every time I get into these conversations :( The 'systat -vmstat' display is *the* system health monitor for a FreeBSD system. With the exception of network traffic, you can monitor just about every vital sign from that one display. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 11 19:58:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA18456 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:57:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from isi.co.jp (ns.isi.co.jp [202.214.62.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA18449 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:57:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@isi.co.jp) Received: by ns.isi.co.jp id <21914>; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 12:55:28 +0900 Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 12:49:54 +0900 From: john cooper To: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no, john@isi.co.jp Subject: Re: SCSI vs. DMA33.. Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-Id: <98Nov12.125528jst.21914@ns.isi.co.jp> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > To: john cooper > Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: SCSI vs. DMA33.. > From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) > Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:34:24 +0900 > > > john cooper writes: > > Just wondering if anyone has any _objective_ opinion on > ------------------- > Hey, I think that's an oxymoron :) Could be, depending upon local connotation. 'objective opinion' in these parts connotes 'impartial' or 'unbiased' point of view. YMMV. -john To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 11 20:22:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA21169 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 20:22:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA21140 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 20:22:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA22805; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 20:21:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: The Hermit Hacker cc: Andrzej Bialecki , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux emulation Re: StarOffice-5.0... In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 11 Nov 1998 20:54:42 -0400." Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 20:21:57 -0800 Message-ID: <22802.910844517@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > ...all because adding /proc/*/cmdline is basically putting more > information into /proc then /proc "means"? There is no reason to put this into /proc. It should go into the Linux /proc. /proc/cmdline is *hardly* the only component from Linux's /proc that various applications have been known to use, and if you don't believe me just try running Oracle 8 for Linux. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 12 01:02:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA15263 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 01:02:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from www.scancall.no (www.scancall.no [195.139.183.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA15258 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 01:02:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Marius.Bendiksen@scancall.no) Received: from super2.langesund.scancall.no [195.139.183.29] by www with smtp id JXFQHSPJ; Thu, 12 Nov 98 09:02:31 GMT (PowerWeb version 4.04r6) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981112100231.00939430@mail.scancall.no> X-Sender: Marius@mail.scancall.no X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:02:31 +0100 To: The Hermit Hacker , Andrzej Bialecki From: Marius Bendiksen Subject: Re: Linux emulation Re: StarOffice-5.0... Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > ...all because adding /proc/*/cmdline is basically putting more >information into /proc then /proc "means"? Why not just add some kind of proc2fs instead of modifying the existing proc? Those that want the extra functionality could then use it instead of the standard procfs. --- Marius Bendiksen, IT-Trainee, ScanCall AS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 12 02:01:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA19063 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 02:01:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bamboo.ints.ml.org ([194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA19056 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 02:01:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from stuart@ints.ml.org) Received: (from stuart@localhost) by bamboo.ints.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA18940; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:01:28 GMT (envelope-from stuart) Message-ID: <19981112100128.A17227@helan.org> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:01:28 +0000 From: Stuart Henderson To: Mike Smith , Stuart Henderson Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_C=2E_Sm=F8rgrav_?= , Timothy J Luoma , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env References: <19981111123045.A12868@helan.org> <199811111759.JAA04084@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <199811111759.JAA04084@dingo.cdrom.com>; from Mike Smith on Wed, Nov 11, 1998 at 09:59:16AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Nov 11, 1998 at 09:59:16AM -0800, Mike Smith wrote: > Ftp can't tell whether what it's just completed is a directory or not > without chdir'ing into it. That might well be unacceptably slow. Surely that depends on the output format of the ftpd at the other side? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 12 02:13:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA20100 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 02:13:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bamboo.ints.ml.org ([194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA20094 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 02:13:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from stuart@ints.ml.org) Received: (from stuart@localhost) by bamboo.ints.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA19016 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:14:52 GMT (envelope-from stuart) Message-ID: <19981112101452.A19012@helan.org> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:14:52 +0000 From: Stuart Henderson To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: TBTF: I2O freed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just spotted this at tbtf.com: 12 November 98: I2O SIG frees its spec On 4 November The I2O Special Interest Group announced [1] that it was making the I2O specification, version 1.5, publicly available to all product developers at no cost. This announcement lays to rest year-old fears [2] that the I2O Consortium might use its closed mem- bership roster and non-disclosure terms to hobble Linux implementa- tion of the advanced I/O subsystem. Here is discussion of this de- velopment on Slashdot [3]. [1] http://www.newsalert.com/free/story?StoryId=CnJ_FubKbytaWndm [2] http://tbtf.com/archive/08-04-97.html#s04 [3] http://slashdot.org/articles/98/11/04/1123235.shtml To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 12 05:53:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA08818 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 05:53:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA08739 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 05:53:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hall.ifi.uio.no (2602@hall.ifi.uio.no [129.240.65.11]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with SMTP id OAA10327; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 14:52:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from localhost (dag-erli@localhost) by hall.ifi.uio.no ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 13:52:05 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Stuart Henderson Cc: Mike Smith , Stuart Henderson , "Dag-Erling C. Smørgrav" , Timothy J Luoma , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env References: <19981111123045.A12868@helan.org> <199811111759.JAA04084@dingo.cdrom.com> <19981112100128.A17227@helan.org> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 12 Nov 1998 14:52:02 +0100 In-Reply-To: Stuart Henderson's message of "Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:01:28 +0000" Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id FAA08758 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Stuart Henderson writes: > On Wed, Nov 11, 1998 at 09:59:16AM -0800, Mike Smith wrote: > > Ftp can't tell whether what it's just completed is a directory or not > > without chdir'ing into it. That might well be unacceptably slow. > Surely that depends on the output format of the ftpd at the other side? No. Check out the NLST command in the FTP protocol standard (RFC959). DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 12 08:24:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA24730 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 08:24:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles361.castles.com [208.214.167.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA24704 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 08:23:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA11256; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 08:20:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199811121620.IAA11256@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Stuart Henderson cc: Mike Smith , Stuart Henderson , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_C=2E_Sm=F8rgrav_?= , Timothy J Luoma , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:01:28 GMT." <19981112100128.A17227@helan.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 08:20:16 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Wed, Nov 11, 1998 at 09:59:16AM -0800, Mike Smith wrote: > > Ftp can't tell whether what it's just completed is a directory or not > > without chdir'ing into it. That might well be unacceptably slow. > > Surely that depends on the output format of the ftpd at the other side? Given that the format is undefined, the only way to tell for sure whether something is a directory is to chdir into it. You can be lame and try to parse the output format, but that's just asking for someone to complain that you don't parse their favorite server's output right. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 12 10:15:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA04829 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:15:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail7.svr.freeserve.net (mail7.svr.freeserve.net [194.152.65.213]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA04822 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:15:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from c.raven@ukonline.co.uk) Received: from modem-69.helium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.0.197] helo=ukonline.co.uk) by mail7.svr.freeserve.net with esmtp (Exim 2.05iplimit-2 #5) id 0ze1GG-0000wg-00 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 18:14:29 +0000 Message-ID: <364B256B.FED234F7@ukonline.co.uk> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 18:14:03 +0000 From: Christopher Raven Organization: CIAN X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: What you always knew to be true! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Someone mailed me this ~ not quite FreeBSD, but you've got to admit they're all true ! ;-) Have you ever received a phone call the minute you stepped outside your door? Has the bus you were waiting for ever appeared from behind a parked truck the instant you light up a cigarette? Certain astute individuals have noticed that such events are not the exception but, rather, the rule. Men like Murphy, Peter and Parkinson have made it their life work to ferret out the operating principles - the laws that govern the frustrating lives that we mortals live. Here is a small sampling of these laws. Murphy's Law If anything can go wrong, it will. If anything can't go wrong, it will go wrong. If anything can't go wrong on its own, someone will make it go wrong. O'Tool's Commentary on Murphy's Law Murphy was an optimist. Murphy's Law for Engineers: The more innocuous a design change appears, the further will its influence extend. Any error that can creep in, will. It will be in the direction that will do most damage to the calculation. A transister protected by a fast-acting fuse will protect the fuse by blowing first. Murphy's Law for Electricians: Any wire cut to length will be too short. The Unspeakable Law As soon as you mention something .... ... if it's good, it goes away ... if it's bad, it happens. Nonreciprocal Laws of Expectations Negative expectations yield negative results. Positive expectations yield negative results. Howe's Law Every man has a scheme that will not work. Zymurgy's First Law of Evolving Systems Dynamics Once you open a can of worms, the only way to recan them is to use a larger can. Etorre's Observation The other line moves faster. DeVrie's Dilemma: If you hit two typewriter keys simultaneously, the one you don't want to hit the paper does. Skinner's Constant (Flanagan's Finagling Factor) That quantity which, when multiplied by, divided by, added to, or subtracted from the answer you get, gives you the answer you should have got. Murphy's Law of Selective Gravity An object will fall so as to do the most damage. Hofstadter's Law: Everything takes longer than you think it will, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. Corollary to Hofstadter's Law: Everything takes longer than you think it will, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law Jenning's Corollary to Murphy's Law of Selective Gravity The chance of the bread falling with the buttered side down is directly proportional to the cost of the carpet. Gordon's First Law If a research project is not worth doing at all, it is not worth doing well. Maier's Law If the facts do not conform to the theory, they must be disposed of. Hoare's Law of Large Problems Inside every large problem is a small problem struggling to get out. Boren's First Law When in doubt, mumble. The Golden Rule of Arts and Sciences Whoever has the gold makes the rules. Barth's Distinction There are two types of people: those who divide people into two types, and those who don't Segal's Law A man with one watch knows what time it is. A man with two watches is never sure. The Ninety-Ninety Rule of Project Schedules The first 90 % of the task takes 90 % of the time, and the last 10 % takes the other 90 % Farber's Fourth Law Necessity is the mother of strange bedfellows. Cole's Law Chopped cabbage. -- Christopher Raven E-mail: c.raven@ukonline.co.uk & ICQ: 2254369 http://www.FreeBSD.org/ "The Power To Serve" http://www.unmetered.org.uk/ "A PC is for life, not just for Xmas" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 12 22:47:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA00677 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 22:47:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA00665 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 22:47:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id RAA27718; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 17:17:20 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id RAA28435; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 17:17:20 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981113171719.A781@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 17:17:19 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Christopher Raven , "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: What you always knew to be true! References: <364B256B.FED234F7@ukonline.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <364B256B.FED234F7@ukonline.co.uk>; from Christopher Raven on Thu, Nov 12, 1998 at 06:14:03PM +0000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Format autorecovered at freebie.lemis.com] On Thursday, 12 November 1998 at 18:14:03 +0000, Christopher Raven wrote: > Someone mailed me this ~ not quite FreeBSD, but you've got to admit > they're all true ! > > ;-) > > Have you ever received a phone call the minute you stepped outside > your door? How many of these are not in the fortune database? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 12 22:51:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA01062 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 22:51:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA01056 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 22:51:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4016.ime.net [209.90.195.26]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id BAA00592; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 01:50:56 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981113014748.00a67ed0@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 01:48:35 -0500 To: Greg Lehey , Christopher Raven , "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: What you always knew to be true! In-Reply-To: <19981113171719.A781@freebie.lemis.com> References: <364B256B.FED234F7@ukonline.co.uk> <364B256B.FED234F7@ukonline.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:17 PM 11/13/98 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >[Format autorecovered at freebie.lemis.com] > >On Thursday, 12 November 1998 at 18:14:03 +0000, Christopher Raven wrote: >> Someone mailed me this ~ not quite FreeBSD, but you've got to admit >> they're all true ! >> >> ;-) >> >> Have you ever received a phone call the minute you stepped outside >> your door? > >How many of these are not in the fortune database? > hmmm my guess is they all are and a bunch more. When did we start cross-posting rec.humor? --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 12 23:05:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA02398 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 23:05:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from wpaul@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA02383; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 23:05:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wpaul) From: Bill Paul Message-Id: <199811130705.XAA02383@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: What you always knew to be true! In-Reply-To: <364B256B.FED234F7@ukonline.co.uk> from Christopher Raven at "Nov 12, 98 06:14:03 pm" To: c.raven@ukonline.co.uk (Christopher Raven) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 23:05:54 -0800 (PST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Someone mailed me this ~ not quite FreeBSD, but you've got to admit > they're all true ! > > ;-) [chop] When I was much younger, I remember coming across a book at a local magazine store called _Murphy's Law And Other Reasons Why Things Go Wrong_ which contained pretty much all of these quotes, plus a lot more. The book was conspicuous by its cover art, which was printed about three quarters of an inch off center. There were also two sequels to the book. I _think_ the second one was called _Murphy's Law Book II: Wrong Reasons Why Things Go More!_ I can't remember the name of the third one. My favorite bit from these books was: Paul's Law: You can't fall off the floor. Corollary: It takes little children three years to learn Paul's Law. The only other one I still remember is from the chapter on engineering: Measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with an axe. -Bill To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 13 01:04:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA11277 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 01:04:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from big-gw.tellique.de (big-gw.tellique.de [195.126.133.179]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA11271 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 01:04:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ni@tellique.de) Received: from tellique.de (nolde.tellique.de [62.144.106.52]) by big-gw.tellique.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA26049; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:03:59 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <364BF5FF.C5C2A1D1@tellique.de> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:03:59 +0100 From: Juergen Nickelsen Organization: Tellique Kommunikationstechnik GmbH X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: gpl'd diff files References: <199811050828.AAA00949@dingo.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Smith wrote: [a patch distributed under the GPL] > If you use code substantially from the patch, then you will be > required to GPL-infest everything you use the code in. The > definition of "derivative work" is pretty broad - you can probably > get away with using information (eg. register maps, hardware > interface procedures) obtained by reading the code, but if you copy > code from the patch, you lose. In this context it may be instructive to quote Richard Stallman, when he writes about how Unix programs can be rewritten for the GNU project (from http://www.gnu.org/prep/standards_3.html): Referring to Proprietary Programs Don't in any circumstances refer to Unix source code for or during your work on GNU! (Or to any other proprietary programs.) If you have a vague recollection of the internals of a Unix program, this does not absolutely mean you can't write an imitation of it, but do try to organize the imitation internally along different lines, because this is likely to make the details of the Unix version irrelevant and dissimilar to your results. For example, Unix utilities were generally optimized to minimize memory use; if you go for speed instead, your program will be very different. You could keep the entire input file in core and scan it there instead of using stdio. Use a smarter algorithm discovered more recently than the Unix program. Eliminate use of temporary files. Do it in one pass instead of two (we did this in the assembler). Or, on the contrary, emphasize simplicity instead of speed. For some applications, the speed of today's computers makes simpler algorithms adequate. Or go for generality. For example, Unix programs often have static tables or fixed-size strings, which make for arbitrary limits; use dynamic allocation instead. Make sure your program handles NULs and other funny characters in the input files. Add a programming language for extensibility and write part of the program in that language. Or turn some parts of the program into independently usable libraries. Or use a simple garbage collector instead of tracking precisely when to free memory, or use a new GNU facility such as obstacks. Of course this is about GPLed software versus UNIX(TM) software, but I think some of it can be applied to BSD-licensed software versus GPLed software as well. -- Juergen Nickelsen Tellique Kommunikationstechnik GmbH Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25, 13355 Berlin, Germany Tel. +49 30 46307-552 / Fax +49 30 46307-579 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 13 01:26:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA13306 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 01:26:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA13301 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 01:26:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA07875; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:25:55 +0100 (CET) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id KAA08273; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:25:55 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19981113102554.10042@follo.net> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:25:54 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: Juergen Nickelsen , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: gpl'd diff files References: <199811050828.AAA00949@dingo.cdrom.com> <364BF5FF.C5C2A1D1@tellique.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <364BF5FF.C5C2A1D1@tellique.de>; from Juergen Nickelsen on Fri, Nov 13, 1998 at 10:03:59AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Nov 13, 1998 at 10:03:59AM +0100, Juergen Nickelsen wrote: [... on RMS "rules of reference" for re-implementing Unix software ...] > Of course this is about GPLed software versus UNIX(TM) software, but I > think some of it can be applied to BSD-licensed software versus GPLed > software as well. It can, and for critical parts (like the kernel), it probably should. However, there is one very simple loophole that RMS does not describe (due to it not being applicable to his context): Contact the author of the code you want to reference and ask if it is OK that you use it as a reference for a BSD-licensed program. You'll usually even be able to get an OK to re-license it. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 13 01:40:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA14815 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 01:40:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from send103.yahoomail.com (send103.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.92]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA14810 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 01:40:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from thallgren@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <19981113094043.9245.rocketmail@send103.yahoomail.com> Received: from [131.116.188.2] by send103.yahoomail.com; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 01:40:43 PST Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 01:40:43 -0800 (PST) From: Tommy Hallgren Subject: NCI and BSD To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi! I thought this might interest some people: http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?981112.ecfujitsu.htm Isn't NCI where John Dyson work? Regards, Tommy _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 13 01:47:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA15264 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 01:47:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA15259 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 01:47:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA08191; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:46:49 +0100 (CET) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id KAA08381; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:46:49 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19981113104648.41551@follo.net> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:46:48 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: Tommy Hallgren , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NCI and BSD References: <19981113094043.9245.rocketmail@send103.yahoomail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19981113094043.9245.rocketmail@send103.yahoomail.com>; from Tommy Hallgren on Fri, Nov 13, 1998 at 01:40:43AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Nov 13, 1998 at 01:40:43AM -0800, Tommy Hallgren wrote: > Hi! > > I thought this might interest some people: > > http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?981112.ecfujitsu.htm These are NetBSD-based, not FreeBSD-based. > Isn't NCI where John Dyson work? That's right. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 13 08:18:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA25746 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:18:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dragon.ham.muohio.edu (dragon.ham.muohio.edu [134.53.147.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA25741 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:18:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from howardjp@dragon.ham.muohio.edu) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by dragon.ham.muohio.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA16169; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 11:18:26 -0500 Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 11:18:26 -0500 (EST) From: Jamie Howard To: Joel Ray Holveck cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: From NTK... In-Reply-To: <86sofvqhnm.fsf@detlev.UUCP> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 7 Nov 1998, Joel Ray Holveck wrote: > >> What are vants? > > From http://alife.santafe.edu/alife/topics/cas/ca-faq/types/types.html > > The Vant rule, by Chris Langton, describes the path of an ant who > > starts pointing in a certain direction. > [snip] > > They totally rule and are really fun to watch when set up with random > > configurations. I wanted to implement an LKM screen-saver using them, but > > never got around to it. > > I'll have to check this out. And the author devised a calculus to > handle analyze them? Sorry, I was away from my mail for a bit... You must understand, I am a mere freshman, (and a highschool sophomore when I implemented it) and I have no iea what a calculus even is. ;) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 13 10:56:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA14889 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:56:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gw-nl1.philips.com (gw-nl1.philips.com [192.68.44.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA14860 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:56:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Jos.Backus@nl.origin-it.com) Received: from smtprelay-nl1.philips.com (localhost.philips.com [127.0.0.1]) by gw-nl1.philips.com with ESMTP id TAA14919 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 19:55:49 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from Jos.Backus@nl.origin-it.com) Received: from smtprelay-eur1.philips.com(130.139.36.3) by gw-nl1.philips.com via mwrap (4.0a) id xma014917; Fri, 13 Nov 98 19:55:49 +0100 Received: from hal.mpn.cp.philips.com (hal.mpn.cp.philips.com [130.139.64.195]) by smtprelay-nl1.philips.com (8.8.5/8.6.10-1.2.2m-970826) with SMTP id TAA23941 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 19:55:48 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 406 invoked by uid 666); 13 Nov 1998 18:56:09 -0000 Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 19:56:09 +0100 From: Jos Backus To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X desktop contest? + Desktop Env Message-ID: <19981113195609.A380@hal.mpn.cp.philips.com> References: <19981112100128.A17227@helan.org> <199811121620.IAA11256@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.94.10i In-Reply-To: <199811121620.IAA11256@dingo.cdrom.com>; from Mike Smith on Thu, Nov 12, 1998 at 08:20:16AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Nov 12, 1998 at 08:20:16AM -0800, Mike Smith wrote: > You can be lame and try to parse the output format, but that's just > asking for someone to complain that you don't parse their favorite > server's output right. There's always http://www.pobox.com/~djb/software/ftpparse.[ch] Another interesting idea (Lynx and Squid support this format): http://www.pobox.com/~djb/proto/eplf.txt -- Jos Backus _/ _/_/_/ "Reliability means never _/ _/ _/ having to say you're sorry." _/ _/_/_/ -- D. J. Bernstein _/ _/ _/ _/ Jos.Backus@nl.origin-it.com _/_/ _/_/_/ use Std::Disclaimer; To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 13 11:36:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA20066 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 11:36:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA20061 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 11:36:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA05275; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:36:06 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981113112331.06eb1dc0@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: brett@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 11:25:05 -0700 To: W Gerald Hicks , "Dan O'Brien" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Interesting diversion - M$ vs OSS In-Reply-To: <36409EA5.1A96F7C7@bellsouth.net> References: <364062AD.7FCE8291@lucent.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:36 PM 11/4/98 -0500, W Gerald Hicks wrote: >Ever met Eric? I have. When the hosts of the Atlanta Linux Exposition >we gracious (and open minded) enough to let us participate with FreeBSD, >he shows up screaming that we're heretics. > Definitely a fanatic, but kinda humorous. Eric is, IMHO, trying to play "spinmeister" for Linux by publicly downplaying Stallman's radical views and the damaging aspects of the GPL. But I've been told that he is a strong advocate of the GPL and trashes *BSD in private. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 13 11:44:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA20947 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 11:44:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles349.castles.com [208.214.167.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA20934 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 11:44:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA01359; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 11:41:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199811131941.LAA01359@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Brett Glass cc: W Gerald Hicks , "Dan O'Brien" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting diversion - M$ vs OSS In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 13 Nov 1998 11:25:05 MST." <4.1.19981113112331.06eb1dc0@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 11:41:19 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 01:36 PM 11/4/98 -0500, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > > >Ever met Eric? I have. When the hosts of the Atlanta Linux Exposition > >we gracious (and open minded) enough to let us participate with FreeBSD, > >he shows up screaming that we're heretics. > > Definitely a fanatic, but kinda humorous. > > Eric is, IMHO, trying to play "spinmeister" for Linux by publicly > downplaying Stallman's radical views and the damaging aspects of the > GPL. But I've been told that he is a strong advocate of the GPL and > trashes *BSD in private. Eric is a almost-zero-content provider desperately manipulating the "open source" image to his best advantage. He'll take any stance he feels will win him approval at the time. It's trivial to trash the guy, but I think the most succinct thing you can say about him is that he's largely irrelevant. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 13 20:27:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA12830 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 20:27:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA12825 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 20:27:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA09446; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 21:27:00 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981113212448.044f91e0@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: brett@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 21:26:15 -0700 To: Mike Smith From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Interesting diversion - M$ vs OSS Cc: W Gerald Hicks , "Dan O'Brien" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199811131941.LAA01359@dingo.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:41 AM 11/13/98 -0800, Mike Smith wrote: >Eric is a almost-zero-content provider desperately manipulating the >"open source" image to his best advantage. He'll take any stance he >feels will win him approval at the time. > >It's trivial to trash the guy, but I think the most succinct thing you >can say about him is that he's largely irrelevant. Well, people are touting his VERY mediocre and poorly written paper, "The Cathedral and the Bazaar," as if it were a definitive proof that Linux Is Ghod. And it is hurting the BSDs, alas. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 13 21:22:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA16502 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 21:22:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.atl.bellsouth.net (mail.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA16494 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 21:22:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from bellsouth.net (host-209-214-77-89.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.77.89]) by mail.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA02069; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 00:22:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <364D13F1.FCFEFE31@bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 00:24:01 -0500 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass CC: Mike Smith , "Dan O'Brien" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting diversion - M$ vs OSS References: <4.1.19981113212448.044f91e0@127.0.0.1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > And it is hurting the BSDs, alas. > I don't believe it. The Linux people I know admire the heck out of the orderly and well managed release engineering processes that *really* define the character and soul of FreeBSD. I also believe that the ports framework of FreeBSD provides a greater opportunity for individual participation than Linux. It's a shame these aspects of FreeBSD haven't been covered more by the press (hint Brett :-) IMO, much of the "Cathedral and the Bazaar" has been rendered meaningless and relies largely on fallacious arguments. Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 13 23:03:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA20778 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 23:03:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA20769 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 23:03:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul2.u.washington.edu (root@saul2.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.21]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id XAA53756 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 23:03:19 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id XAA08687 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 23:03:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 23:03:01 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Accidentally Discovered Spam Stopper Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I found a cool way to minimize the annoyance that spam causes and it requires minimal leg work. I haven't had spam in any of my "good" mailboxes for a long time and it is purely by accident. My procmail recipes filter all of my mail to my ~/mail/Inbox' mailbox (and a few other places) with a ^TO jcwells@u\.washington\.edu. Any remaining mail that doesn't get filtered and goes to '/var/mail'. Amazingly enough all of my spam is getting left behind in my '/var/mail' mailbox because spammers always send mail to "Undisclosed Recipients" which never matches jcwells@u.washington.edu. Yes I suppose it is possible to have good mail not get put in the proper box this way but it hasn't happened to me yet. Yeah it is simple and stupid but it makes me happy that my foul up is actually useful. If it's not a bug it's a feature, right? Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 14 04:23:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA11466 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 04:23:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA11461 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 04:23:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.1/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id NAA02883 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 13:22:47 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 4DF59145A; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 12:47:52 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 12:47:52 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Accidentally Discovered Spam Stopper Message-ID: <19981114124752.A12397@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD-chat References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.94.16i In-Reply-To: ; from Jason C. Wells on Fri, Nov 13, 1998 at 11:03:01PM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT/ELF ctm#4805 AMD-K6 MMX @ 200 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Jason C. Wells: > If it's not a bug it's a feature, right? It is a feature but remember that any Bcc: sent to you will end up in /var/mail too... -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #2: Sun Nov 8 01:22:20 CET 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 14 07:00:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA19348 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 07:00:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA19338 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 07:00:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id JAA20224 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:59:56 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:59:55 -0500 (EST) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Found this admin tool, is limited to 50K records... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.arlut.utexas.edu/gash2/ If anyone is looking for something like this. To bad their trying to release it under the GPL, ACK. Yet another Admin tool Chris -- "You both seem to be ignoring the fact that the networking market is driven by so-called 'IT professionals' these days, most of whom can't tell the difference between an ARP and a carp." --Wes Peters ===================================| Open Systems FreeBSD Consulting. FreeBSD 3.0 is available now! | Phone: (402)573-9124 / ICQ # 20016186 -----------------------------------| 3335 N. 103 Plaza, Omaha, NE 68134 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting, Network Engineering, Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 14 07:09:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA19819 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 07:09:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from palace.awc.net (palace.awc.net [209.117.192.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA19814 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 07:09:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kirk@patrohn.com) Received: from greenvillesc0-201.dyn.interpath.net (kfort@greenvillesc0-201.dyn.interpath.net [207.59.118.201]) by palace.awc.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA24432 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 10:08:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 10:07:28 -0500 (EST) From: Kirk Fort X-Sender: kfort@kfort.dyn.ml.org To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD finances Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, Is there any place online where I could find information or a financial report for the freeBSD project. Just roughly how much $ goes into the project and where the $ is spent. Is the FreeBSD project a non-profit organization or is it incorporated or what? Please forward replies to me, as I am not subscribed to this mailing list, however it seemed the most appropriate for my question. Kirk Fort To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 14 09:01:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA27072 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:01:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA27065 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:01:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul9.u.washington.edu (root@saul9.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.7]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id JAA39454; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:01:05 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul9.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id JAA13131; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:01:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:00:40 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Kirk Fort cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD finances In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 14 Nov 1998, Kirk Fort wrote: >Hi, > >Is there any place online where I could find information or a financial >report for the freeBSD project. Just roughly how much $ goes into the >project and where the $ is spent. Is the FreeBSD project a non-profit >organization or is it incorporated or what? FreeBSD, Inc is well... incorporated. It is not a non-profit. I doubt the information you seek is readily available but I think someone who knows wouldn't mind sharing financial info with the public. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 14 09:17:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA28834 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:17:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail3.svr.freeserve.net (mail3.svr.freeserve.net [194.152.65.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA28829 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:17:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from c.raven@ukonline.co.uk) Received: from modem-48.nickel.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.13.176] helo=ukonline.co.uk) by mail3.svr.freeserve.net with esmtp (Exim 2.05iplimit-2 #5) id 0zejIn-0004dW-00; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 17:16:01 +0000 Message-ID: <364DBAB5.9E43F7AD@ukonline.co.uk> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 17:15:33 +0000 From: Christopher Raven Organization: CIAN X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" CC: Kirk Fort , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD finances References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jason C. Wells wrote: > > On Sat, 14 Nov 1998, Kirk Fort wrote: > > >Hi, > > > >Is there any place online where I could find information or a financial > >report for the freeBSD project. Just roughly how much $ goes into the > >project and where the $ is spent. Is the FreeBSD project a non-profit > >organization or is it incorporated or what? > > FreeBSD, Inc is well... incorporated. It is not a non-profit. I doubt the > information you seek is readily available but I think someone who knows > wouldn't mind sharing financial info with the public. > > Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering > Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message I believe its been stated sometime previous, and by someone whose name escapes, that FreeBSD is simply incorporated for tax purposes and to protect its "rights". As for being non-profit, it is hard to imagine an organisation that gives its products away ever running at a *profit*. Breaking even maybe on its expenses (hardware, maintenance, etc., etc.,). Then again..... That's just my own 2 cents worth. -- Christopher Raven E-mail: c.raven@ukonline.co.uk & ICQ: 2254369 http://www.FreeBSD.org/ "The Power To Serve" http://www.unmetered.org.uk/ "A PC is for life, not just for Xmas" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 14 09:21:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA29386 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:21:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from root.com (root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA29373 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:20:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@root.com) Received: from root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA15317; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:21:40 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199811141721.JAA15317@root.com> To: "Jason C. Wells" cc: Kirk Fort , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD finances In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:00:40 PST." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:21:40 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >>Is there any place online where I could find information or a financial >>report for the freeBSD project. Just roughly how much $ goes into the >>project and where the $ is spent. Is the FreeBSD project a non-profit >>organization or is it incorporated or what? > >FreeBSD, Inc is well... incorporated. It is not a non-profit. I doubt the >information you seek is readily available but I think someone who knows >wouldn't mind sharing financial info with the public. Money? What money? Other than a very small amount of donations (a few thousand dollars) that is spent on a few pieces of hardware, there isn't any money. ...but Jason is right - private organizations aren't obligated to disclose this information. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 14 11:34:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA09753 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:34:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA09747 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:34:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA15722; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 12:33:52 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981114123122.04221bd0@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: brett@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 12:33:02 -0700 To: dg@root.com, "Jason C. Wells" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD finances Cc: Kirk Fort , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199811141721.JAA15317@root.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:21 AM 11/14/98 -0800, David Greenman wrote: > Money? What money? Other than a very small amount of donations (a few >thousand dollars) that is spent on a few pieces of hardware, there isn't >any money. ...but Jason is right - private organizations aren't obligated >to disclose this information. True. But it would be reassuring to find out who owns it, since the owners clearly have the rights to the organization's trademarks, hardware, etc. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 14 11:50:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA10832 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:50:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles134.castles.com [208.214.165.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA10827 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:50:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA06937; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:48:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199811141948.LAA06937@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Brett Glass cc: "Jason C. Wells" , Kirk Fort , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD finances In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 14 Nov 1998 12:33:02 MST." <4.1.19981114123122.04221bd0@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:48:46 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 09:21 AM 11/14/98 -0800, David Greenman wrote: > > > Money? What money? Other than a very small amount of donations (a few > >thousand dollars) that is spent on a few pieces of hardware, there isn't > >any money. ...but Jason is right - private organizations aren't obligated > >to disclose this information. > > True. But it would be reassuring to find out who owns it, since the owners > clearly have the rights to the organization's trademarks, hardware, etc. It's a well-known fact that Jordan Hubbard is the CEO of FreeBSD Inc. To the best of my knowledge, "FreeBSD" is not a trademarked term. As for the hardware; most of what's been purchased by FreeBSD Inc. is scattered to the far corners of the globe, in the hands of developers. Most of the hardware the Project uses is actually funded by Walnut Creek CDROM. Some contributed funds have been used to purchase consultant time to address specific problems. I'm particularly interested to know what Mr Fort's interest in the matter is, as it would be easier to answer his questions if we knew what they actually were. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 14 12:00:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA11462 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 12:00:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamefish.pcola.gulf.net (gamefish.pcola.gulf.net [198.69.72.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA11455 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 12:00:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from psalzman@gamefish.pcola.gulf.net) Received: from localhost (psalzman@localhost) by gamefish.pcola.gulf.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA17136; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 19:59:40 GMT (envelope-from psalzman@gamefish.pcola.gulf.net) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 19:59:40 +0000 (GMT) From: Phillip Salzman To: Mike Smith cc: Brett Glass , "Jason C. Wells" , Kirk Fort , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD finances In-Reply-To: <199811141948.LAA06937@dingo.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > To the best of my knowledge, "FreeBSD" is not a trademarked term. Nope, that position was elimated a long time ago. Its just the core team, think of it as how MS had only an ``Executive Board of Directors'' up until Bill Gates put Steven Baller in charge. Jordan is the release coordinator now. -- Phillip Salzman To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 14 12:43:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA14530 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 12:43:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from root.com (root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA14525 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 12:42:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@root.com) Received: from root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA18431; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 12:43:32 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199811142043.MAA18431@root.com> To: Mike Smith cc: Brett Glass , "Jason C. Wells" , Kirk Fort , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD finances In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:48:46 PST." <199811141948.LAA06937@dingo.cdrom.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 12:43:32 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> True. But it would be reassuring to find out who owns it, since the owners >> clearly have the rights to the organization's trademarks, hardware, etc. > >It's a well-known fact that Jordan Hubbard is the CEO of FreeBSD Inc. Correct. Not to be confused with Jordan's former position as "president" of the FreeBSD Project, however. >To the best of my knowledge, "FreeBSD" is not a trademarked term. FreeBSD is a registered trademark of Walnut Creek CDROM and the FreeBSD Project. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 14 13:09:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA15997 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 13:09:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles134.castles.com [208.214.165.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA15992 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 13:09:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA07371; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 13:08:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199811142108.NAA07371@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Kirk Fort cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD finances In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 14 Nov 1998 15:20:36 EST." <19981114152036.09845@kfort.dyn.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 13:08:38 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Sat, Nov 14, 1998 at 11:48:46AM -0800, Mike Smith wrote: > > > I'm particularly interested to know what Mr Fort's interest in the > > matter is, as it would be easier to answer his questions if we knew > > what they actually were. > > I don't have an specific interest (I'm not an IRS agent, if thats what > you mean), but I here that WC gives freebsd all the profits from te > sale of the CDs. I don't know where you heard this, but this isn't the case. Walnut Creek CDROM spends a lot of money on the Project, yes, but there is no such formal agreement (and indeed, if you think about it for a moment, there would be no incentive for such an agreement). WC has never, to the best of my knowledge, given money to the FreeBSD project. Assistance has always come in the form of non-cash assets (eg. hardware, resources) or intangible benefits (marketting exposure, promotional materials, etc.). > With 4 releases a year at $25 dollars each, it > wouldn't take many people such as my self (I have the WC > subscription), for it to add up to a sizable sum. JKH said that its > $10k a year, with 90% going to equipment. I'm interested in how > popular freebsd is. My guess is that there are no more than about 200 > people on the subscription, probably much closer to 100 because not > all of the 10k is coming from subscription sales. Since you're working from fundamentally flawed numbers to start with, none of this holds. I'm not at liberty to discuss the actual numbers involved, but I can say that you're *wildly* off on the low side. > The second part of > my question was answered when someone said that FreeBSD is > incorporated. Correct my if I am wrong, as I am not a business lawyer, > but don't corporations have shares of stock, whether public or > private? I guess that JKH has all the shares, and that is fine. I was > curious because I see alot about FreeBSD's development model, but > nothing about its business model. Again, it's public knowledge that FreeBSD Inc. exists for a very specific set of reasons, and principally so that other corporate entities can make donations in a fashion that's comfortable to their internal accounting policies. The FreeBSD Inc. business model is simple: get donations from people, spend donations to improve FreeBSD. There are other related business models - those of people like Walnut Creek, Pacific Hitech and CheapBytes for example. You'll have to guess at these from what's generally known. > So I guess my main question was, where does my money go, and how many > people like myself are giving money. Money donated directly to FreeBSD Inc. is spent primarily on the following types of items: - Hardware for developers (eg. new cards for driver development, systems for testing purposes, other infrastructure). - Consulting fees for developers specifically working on focussed FreeBSD-related issues. - Promotional activities. The majority of donated funds are spent on hardware; we do our best to look for corporate sponsors for consulting issues, and opportunities for cost-effective use of donated funds for promotional activities are rare. There is a very strong feeling of responsibility towards donated funds, and we look hard for ways to spend them effectively. Walnut Creek CDROM is known to support the FreeBSD Project in at least the following ways. You'll note that none of these involve giving cash to FreeBSD Inc. - Providing ftp.freebsd.org. It was mentioned publically recently that going by CRL's published pricing, WC must spend something on the order of $20,000 per month for network connectivity for this system alone. (I don't actually have access to the real figures, nor would I be able to confirm or deny them if I did.) The system itself was recently upgraded to 0.5TB of disk space. You can do the math to work out what this must have cost. - Employing Jordan Hubbard, David Greenman and myself. - Providing hardware for the FreeBSD Project cluster. There are 8 machines in the cluster, plus infrastructure hardware. Turnover on these systems is reasonably rapid (most are < 12 months old), and storage requirements continue to explode. - Supporting the FreeBSD Project cluster; this includes the T1 it sits on, air conditioning for the room, and the time that Jordan and I spend maintaining it. - Producing and distributing promotional material. The FreeBSD newsletters, the stickers and labels, T/polo/denim shirts, etc. are all produced by WC, and either given away or sold at about cost. - Sponsoring FreeBSD developers to conferences, trade shows, etc., and not just the ones that WC employs. - Donations of substantial numbers of FreeBSD CDROMs. So, if you're making direct donations, your money is spent by FreeBSD Inc. If you're buying CDROMs from WC, your money goes to Walnut Creek, who will spend a substantial portion of it on the categories above. As both FreeBSD Inc. and Walnut Creek are privately held companies, they're not required (and I'm not at liberty) to disclose "who" or "how much", but you're welcome to do the arithmetic on what's public knowledge and get an idea of the scale of things. I hope this gives you some idea about what goes where. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 14 13:18:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16822 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 13:18:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA16817 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 13:18:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA16362; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 14:18:14 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981114141123.00c1b100@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: brett@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 14:17:25 -0700 To: Mike Smith From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD finances Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , Kirk Fort , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199811141948.LAA06937@dingo.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:48 AM 11/14/98 -0800, Mike Smith wrote: >It's a well-known fact that Jordan Hubbard is the CEO of FreeBSD Inc. True. But is he the owner? If not, who owns how much of it? >To the best of my knowledge, "FreeBSD" is not a trademarked term. If it weren't, it could be claimed by BSDI. This would not be good! I certainly hope it *IS* trademarked. >As for the hardware; most of what's been purchased by FreeBSD Inc. is >scattered to the far corners of the globe, in the hands of developers. >Most of the hardware the Project uses is actually funded by Walnut Creek >CDROM. True. But if it's a privately held corporation, and it's been given stuff, that's income -- and the gain should be reflected either on a corporate tax return or on the tax returns of the private owners. Otherwise, the US Government could go after FreeBSD, Inc. and do nasty things -- including possibly seizing some of that equipment. If it really is a full-fledged private corporation, keeping legal is extremely important. >Some contributed funds have been used to purchase consultant time to >address specific problems. Which is good. Again, though, there's paperwork associated with doing this -- and penalties if you don't send in the proper forms. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 14 13:22:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17193 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 13:22:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from root.com (root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA17188 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 13:22:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@root.com) Received: from root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA18823; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 13:22:58 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199811142122.NAA18823@root.com> To: Mike Smith cc: Kirk Fort , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD finances In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 14 Nov 1998 13:08:38 PST." <199811142108.NAA07371@dingo.cdrom.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 13:22:57 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> I don't have an specific interest (I'm not an IRS agent, if thats what >> you mean), but I here that WC gives freebsd all the profits from te >> sale of the CDs. > >I don't know where you heard this, but this isn't the case. A couple of comments... First, Business 101: There is a very big difference between gross sales and profit, especially when the cost of the raw materials (the CDROMs in this case) is a very small part of the costs to run the business. Second, I believe there is a committment for the complete profits of FreeBSD 3.0 to go to fund various FreeBSD related things, not the least of which is advertising/promotion. Talk to Jordan about that. >> incorporated. Correct my if I am wrong, as I am not a business lawyer, >> but don't corporations have shares of stock, whether public or >> private? I guess that JKH has all the shares, and that is fine. I was >> curious because I see alot about FreeBSD's development model, but >> nothing about its business model. I was a minority share holder (45%), but decided to give that up due to tax complications. Jordan is now a 100% share holder. ...not that it really matters since the amount of money involved is so small. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 14 13:51:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA18663 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 13:51:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles134.castles.com [208.214.165.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA18654 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 13:51:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA07629; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 13:49:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199811142149.NAA07629@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Brett Glass cc: Mike Smith , "Jason C. Wells" , Kirk Fort , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD finances In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 14 Nov 1998 14:17:25 MST." <4.1.19981114141123.00c1b100@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 13:49:56 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > >As for the hardware; most of what's been purchased by FreeBSD Inc. is > >scattered to the far corners of the globe, in the hands of developers. > >Most of the hardware the Project uses is actually funded by Walnut Creek > >CDROM. > > True. But if it's a privately held corporation, and it's been given stuff, > that's income -- and the gain should be reflected either on a corporate > tax return or on the tax returns of the private owners. Otherwise, I don't believe I've implied that ownership of anything has been transferred. What WC purchases remains WC's property; it's simply a matter of what it's allowed to be used for, and by whom. > >Some contributed funds have been used to purchase consultant time to > >address specific problems. > > Which is good. Again, though, there's paperwork associated with doing > this -- and penalties if you don't send in the proper forms. So kind of you to be so concerned, but what gives you the impression that this isn't already being done? -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 14 14:33:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA21449 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 14:33:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA21442 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 14:33:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA04598; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 14:33:29 -0800 (PST) To: Mike Smith cc: Kirk Fort , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD finances In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 14 Nov 1998 13:08:38 PST." <199811142108.NAA07371@dingo.cdrom.com> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 14:33:29 -0800 Message-ID: <4594.911082809@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I don't know where you heard this, but this isn't the case. > > Walnut Creek CDROM spends a lot of money on the Project, yes, but there > is no such formal agreement (and indeed, if you think about it for a > moment, there would be no incentive for such an agreement). Actually, there is currently an informal agreement between ourselves and the owner of Walnut Creek CDROM which states that WC will be investing 100% (or something very close to it) of its net profits from FreeBSD into the project for now. We're in a growth phase right now and such reinvestment is not unusual - Bob wants to make a bunch of new things (like tech support) happen and he knows that it's going to take some significant $$$ in the short term to make that happen. Since we're making a reasonable but not killer profit at the moment (the whole CD biz seems to be in a slump), that doesn't take a lot of $$$ before reaching 100%. > WC has never, to the best of my knowledge, given money to the FreeBSD > project. Assistance has always come in the form of non-cash assets Yeah, they've done that too. Paying Eugene, for example, is a pretty good example of direct monetary contribution. :-) > Since you're working from fundamentally flawed numbers to start with, > none of this holds. I'm not at liberty to discuss the actual numbers > involved, but I can say that you're *wildly* off on the low side. I was talking to him earlier about just the donation side, that is money people give directly to FreeBSD, Inc. vs money spent on CDs. That amount is, indeed, around $10K/yr (in a good year - some years its as low as $4-$5K) and, of that, $600 goes to pay California's ridiculously high corporation tax every year and $400 goes to the company's accountant to keep the books balanced and generally handle all the receipts. I could have registered this corporation in Nevada or something but it would have only added in a different set of hassles, not necessarily a better/cheaper set. > Money donated directly to FreeBSD Inc. is spent primarily on the > following types of items: > > - Hardware for developers (eg. new cards for driver development, > systems for testing purposes, other infrastructure). > - Consulting fees for developers specifically working on focussed > FreeBSD-related issues. > - Promotional activities. That pretty much sums it up. > Walnut Creek CDROM is known to support the FreeBSD Project in at least > the following ways. You'll note that none of these involve giving cash > to FreeBSD Inc. Right, no actual cash to FreeBSD, Inc. is given by WC, they preferring to make their contributions directly and we also liking things that way. Give money to FreeBSD, Inc. and now I've just got to manage the funds and see that they're spent before the end of the year (tax time); agree to buy the hardware or developer hours yourself, however, and now you've just made my job a lot easier. That's another reason FreeBSD, Inc. doesn't get more than $10K/yr worth of donations - it's a lot better for me to get somebody like David Filo to hire a couple of FreeBSD geeks (which is a $200K/yr proposition once you add medical, dental and 401K) rather than trying to solicit the money for such programs directly. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 14 14:43:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA22536 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 14:43:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA22530 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 14:43:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA16891; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 15:42:55 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981114153843.069aa680@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: brett@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 15:42:08 -0700 To: Mike Smith From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD finances Cc: Mike Smith , "Jason C. Wells" , Kirk Fort , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199811142149.NAA07629@dingo.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:49 PM 11/14/98 -0800, Mike Smith wrote: >So kind of you to be so concerned, but what gives you the impression >that this isn't already being done? Because the whole thing seemed to be shrouded in mystery. I've heard FreeBSD, Inc. variously described as a group, a non-profit (apparently, this isn't correct), and as a for-profit corporation with a small group of stakeholders. If one relies on an operating system, one does have an interest in making sure that the company that produces it is on steady ground! While a privately held corporation isn't under any obligation to release information, it sure does instill confidence in its viability and its products when it does so. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 14 14:55:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA23538 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 14:55:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from root.com (root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA23527 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 14:55:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@root.com) Received: from root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA20023; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 14:56:27 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199811142256.OAA20023@root.com> To: Brett Glass cc: Mike Smith , "Jason C. Wells" , Kirk Fort , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD finances In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 14 Nov 1998 15:42:08 MST." <4.1.19981114153843.069aa680@127.0.0.1> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 14:56:27 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >At 01:49 PM 11/14/98 -0800, Mike Smith wrote: > >>So kind of you to be so concerned, but what gives you the impression >>that this isn't already being done? > >Because the whole thing seemed to be shrouded in mystery. I've heard >FreeBSD, Inc. variously described as a group, a non-profit (apparently, >this isn't correct), and as a for-profit corporation with a small >group of stakeholders. If one relies on an operating system, one does >have an interest in making sure that the company that produces it is >on steady ground! While a privately held corporation isn't under any >obligation to release information, it sure does instill confidence >in its viability and its products when it does so. FreeBSD, Inc. does not produce FreeBSD. The confusion you have comes from not seeing the subtle differences in the various names that are being used. "The FreeBSD Project" refers to the development effort that produces FreeBSD releases. It has a core team, is not incorporated, and has no money whatsoever. "FreeBSD, Inc.", on the other hand, is a for-profit company that manages the distribution of a small amount of donations, produces no software or any other products, is owned and operated by exactly one person (Jordan), and is accountable only to him. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 14 21:55:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA24137 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 21:55:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason02.u.washington.edu (jason02.u.washington.edu [140.142.76.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA24131 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 21:55:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul9.u.washington.edu (root@saul9.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.7]) by jason02.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id VAA12754 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 21:55:06 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul9.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id VAA26484 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 21:55:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 21:54:47 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Gamers! Kali for Linux Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kali for Linux runs on FreeBSD. If you are an online gamer then you know what Kali is and how much it kicks ass. Check it out http://www.kali.net/ Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 14 23:42:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA01112 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 23:42:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA01105 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 23:42:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul9.u.washington.edu (root@saul9.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.7]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id XAA45642; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 23:42:18 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul9.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id XAA11782; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 23:42:17 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 23:42:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: FreeBSD-chat cc: Ken Keeler Subject: Can you recommend one of these workstations? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I will be graduationg before long. I have little experience with expensive unix workstations. The software that I am interested in running is SDRC IDEAS Master Series 6 which is a CAD system among other things. Unfortunately, I cannot this software on FreeBSD. (or can I?) It runs on: Sun, HP, IBM, and SGI. (I have used SGI and wasn't really impressed by IRIX. I have used Solaris in process control and thought it was neat.) Can anyone point me to a good resource (not the vendors please) on how to buy one of these machines? Any recommendations from experienced users/admins on what to stay clear of? Are these machines really any better than Intel based hardware? Is there any hope of FreeBSD being compatible with any of these OSes. I see the SVR4 emulation shows some hope of running "SysV executabls taken from Solaris/x86 2.5.1 and 2.6 systems". I am wondering if this will translate into the ability to run a Solaris Sparc binary. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 14 23:58:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA02372 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 23:58:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles231.castles.com [208.214.165.231]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA02352 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 23:57:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA10471; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 23:56:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199811150756.XAA10471@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jason C. Wells" cc: FreeBSD-chat , Ken Keeler Subject: Re: Can you recommend one of these workstations? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 14 Nov 1998 23:42:00 PST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 23:56:40 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I will be graduationg before long. I have little experience with expensive > unix workstations. > > The software that I am interested in running is SDRC IDEAS Master Series 6 > which is a CAD system among other things. Unfortunately, I cannot this > software on FreeBSD. (or can I?) > > It runs on: Sun, HP, IBM, and SGI. > > (I have used SGI and wasn't really impressed by IRIX. I have used Solaris > in process control and thought it was neat.) > > Can anyone point me to a good resource (not the vendors please) on how to > buy one of these machines? Any recommendations from experienced > users/admins on what to stay clear of? Sun hardware is generally cheaper for a given performance level. The existence of Sun hardware clones also gives you a better buying position. For less than a thousand dollars you can get a reasonable secondhand Sun-compatible system that will probably run your application OK. Eg. we just bought an Axil 311 with a single SM61 processor module, 128M of memory, 2GB of disk and an accelerated 8-bit framebuffer for about $800.oo. You would need to add a monitor, keyboard and mouse to this combination for a complete system. Systems from Axil and Ross generally offer excellent value for money. A good place to start in the Sun world is www.sunhelp.com, also check out sellers in misc.forsale.computers.workstation (something like that). > Are these machines really any better than Intel based hardware? Is beer better than beer? The question is uselessly vague. Some is, some isn't. > Is there any hope of FreeBSD being compatible with any of these OSes. I > see the SVR4 emulation shows some hope of running "SysV executabls taken > from Solaris/x86 2.5.1 and 2.6 systems". I am wondering if this will > translate into the ability to run a Solaris Sparc binary. No, see the "x86" in "Solaris/x86"? That means "Intel". -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message