From owner-freebsd-java Sun Jan 24 12:07:20 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12110 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:07:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (sj-dsl-9-129-138.dspeed.net [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA12098 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:07:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA02886; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:05:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199901242005.MAA02886@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Nate Williams cc: java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 23 Jan 1999 12:52:45 MST." <199901231952.MAA27216@mt.sri.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:05:55 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Another way to tackle the problem is to gather a group of "volunteers" each willing to buy Individual License which is $495 . I certainly am willing to buy an individual license for my freebsd box . http://www.twr.com/ Besides, we can't really afford for linux to gain the lead in this area already I read an article of linux kicking NTs butt with respect to servlets . Cheers, Amancio > > Do you know if if the commercial copy allows distribution of their shared > > libraries along with the compiled java program? > > Depends on the license. The 5K license requires that you buy 'runtime' > licenses for each and every installation. They have other (much more > expensive) licenses that allow you to build/distribute w/out any > runtimes. > > > Nate > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Sun Jan 24 12:11:04 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12404 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:11:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA12399 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:11:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA03441; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:10:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA01802; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:10:49 -0700 Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:10:49 -0700 Message-Id: <199901242010.NAA01802@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Amancio Hasty Cc: Nate Williams , java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199901242005.MAA02886@rah.star-gate.com> References: <199901231952.MAA27216@mt.sri.com> <199901242005.MAA02886@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Another way to tackle the problem is to gather a group of "volunteers" > each willing to buy Individual License which is $495 . This license doesn't allow you to build re-distributable binaries, but does allow you build binaries for you own (individual) purposes. I have a couple of these (one for Solaris, one for Win32), and I built a sped-up javac. Until Jikes was released it was much faster to use the executable version of the compiler. > I read an article of linux kicking NTs butt with respect to servlets . I think someone was confused, because the M$ VM kicks everyone but Tower's butt in all respects. Or, are they comparing an NT/VM servlet with a TowerJ compiled servlet on Linux? Comparison's like this are kind of worthless. (Also, I'm not sure if you can do servlet support with TowerJ...) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Sun Jan 24 12:38:33 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA15322 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:38:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (sj-dsl-9-129-138.dspeed.net [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA15317 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:38:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA03137; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:37:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199901242037.MAA03137@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Nate Williams cc: java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:10:49 MST." <199901242010.NAA01802@mt.sri.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:37:09 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-08-1998/jw-08-volanomark.html Any clues as why NT's VM is so fast? I will keep digging for the linux / nt servlet comparison. Tnks, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Sun Jan 24 12:41:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA15918 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:41:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA15913 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:41:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA03675; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:41:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA01895; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:41:12 -0700 Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:41:12 -0700 Message-Id: <199901242041.NAA01895@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Amancio Hasty Cc: Nate Williams , java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199901242037.MAA03137@rah.star-gate.com> References: <199901242010.NAA01802@mt.sri.com> <199901242037.MAA03137@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-08-1998/jw-08-volanomark.html > > Any clues as why NT's VM is so fast? Because M$'s JIT actually works well most of the time, unlike the Symantec one (which Sun bundles for free with the Win32 JDK/JRE). And, the Linux JIT's aren't 'state-of-the-art' or supported, so there isn't much incentive to make them faster. > I will keep digging for the linux / nt servlet comparison. Thanks, I'd like to read it. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Sun Jan 24 12:45:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA16379 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:45:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA16374 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:45:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA03707; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:45:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA01913; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:45:44 -0700 Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:45:44 -0700 Message-Id: <199901242045.NAA01913@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Amancio Hasty Cc: Nate Williams , java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199901242037.MAA03137@rah.star-gate.com> References: <199901242010.NAA01802@mt.sri.com> <199901242037.MAA03137@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-08-1998/jw-08-volanomark.html Yep, this is where FreeBSD (and less so Linux) got the crap kicked out of it. Linux is a bit better than ours for a couple of reaasons. 1) The use the assembly version of the interpreter, and we use the C version. 2) Our 'Green Threads' implementation uses locking that is not as effecient as the Linux version. In particular, Linux kernel's have poll built in, and we emulate it (badly, but effectively) with some hacks to use select. A 3.0/ELF port could take advantage of most of the Linux work since we're now using the same library format and we have poll, but none of the porters (hint, hint, nudge, nudge) have done anything. There is lots to do in the Java realm, but very few of the people on the porters list have done anything about making it happen. For that reason, I'm probably going to disband the current effort whenever I get around to doing the JDK1.2 stuff and start over with folks that have shown real interest in it. (Unless someone else beats me to the punch.) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Sun Jan 24 14:17:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA25141 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 14:17:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (sj-dsl-9-129-138.dspeed.net [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA25136 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 14:17:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA04051; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 14:16:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199901242216.OAA04051@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Nate Williams cc: java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:45:44 MST." <199901242045.NAA01913@mt.sri.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 14:16:03 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org One possible solution is a call for volunteers in the FreeBSD Java web page and include all available information with respect to performance: kaffe, egcs/java , garbage collection, TowerJ, Microsoft's Java VM , java world's benchmark , areas where our JDK needs improvement. For any Java VM hacker Bill Venners's Inside the Java Virtual Machine book is highly recommended. Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Sun Jan 24 14:29:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA26798 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 14:29:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (sj-dsl-9-129-138.dspeed.net [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA26792 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 14:29:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA04162; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 14:28:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199901242228.OAA04162@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Nate Williams cc: java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:41:12 MST." <199901242041.NAA01895@mt.sri.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 14:28:31 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Linux vs. NT --- I hope that the printed version gives more info ... http://www.internetworld.com/print/1998/11/23/webdev/19981123-java.html Cheers, Amancio > > http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-08-1998/jw-08-volanomark.html > > > > Any clues as why NT's VM is so fast? > > Because M$'s JIT actually works well most of the time, unlike the > Symantec one (which Sun bundles for free with the Win32 JDK/JRE). And, > the Linux JIT's aren't 'state-of-the-art' or supported, so there isn't > much incentive to make them faster. > > > I will keep digging for the linux / nt servlet comparison. > > Thanks, I'd like to read it. > > > Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Sun Jan 24 14:52:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA29606 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 14:52:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA29601 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 14:52:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA04718; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 15:51:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA02405; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 15:51:56 -0700 Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 15:51:56 -0700 Message-Id: <199901242251.PAA02405@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Amancio Hasty Cc: Nate Williams , java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199901242216.OAA04051@rah.star-gate.com> References: <199901242045.NAA01913@mt.sri.com> <199901242216.OAA04051@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > One possible solution is a call for volunteers in the FreeBSD Java web page > and include all available information with respect to performance: I don't want volunteers as much as I want people who are *doing* something. The last call for volunteers netted alot of people, with only 3-4 actually doing something, and of those only 2 remain that actually actively work on the port. > kaffe, egcs/java , garbage collection, TowerJ, Microsoft's Java VM , > java world's benchmark , areas where our JDK needs improvement. None of these are related to the JDK. We need people willing to fix bugs and/or port the stock JDK code. None of the above do *anything* for us w/out a decent working JDK. > For any Java VM hacker Bill Venners's Inside the Java Virtual Machine book > is highly recommended. We don't need VM tuners, we need VM porters. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Sun Jan 24 15:17:32 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA02807 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 15:17:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA02799 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 15:17:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA04906 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 16:17:19 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA02474; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 16:17:18 -0700 Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 16:17:18 -0700 Message-Id: <199901242317.QAA02474@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: JDK1.2 active porters sought X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At this point in time, I know of no 'active' work occurring in the JDK1.2 port. That doesn't mean no-one is doing it, but that all of the interested parties are either too busy or have not recently expressed anything to me and/or the list about their work. If you have a desire to work on the FreeBSD JDK1.2 port, please send email to me and/or the list expressing your desire to do the port. Note, because *nothing* exists at this time except the JDK1.1 diffs (which are publically available) we do not need testers or people who aren't programmers. What you need to become a porter is: 1) A copy of the JDK1.2 sources. Checkout www.javasoft.com. Ignore the fact that the 'education source license' has JDK1.1 written all over it. If you submit it, you will be given access to the JDK1.2 sources. 2) Extensive knowledge about C programming. This is not for the faint of heart. Object formats, shared libraries, linkers, loaders, and such are all important at this point. Note however that you can look at the JDK1.1 patches for reference, so you don't have to guess at what needs to be done, and those patchs should provide a helpful reference. 3) Time to actually do something. If you don't have time to help, don't bother volunteering, hoping that you'll be able to find time. If you don't have time now, you probably won't have it later. This may seem harsh, but good intentions to help all too often fall by the wayside when work/family intrude. They are more important than this project. 4) You must have installed either 2.2-stable or 3.0-stable. If you're running any version of FreeBSD prior to 2.2.6, you'll need to upgrade unless you *really* know what you are doing. And, if you do you should be running a more recent version. :) 5) Desire to generate/share patches with others. If you don't have time to do the work and then share it with others, then go ahead and do the port on your own. The porting group needs people willing to actively accept and modify other's patches, as well as submit their own when needed. What not to worry about: 1) If you don't have a copy of ELF/Motif, don't worry. That problem will work itself out, and at this point Lesstif will work fine for the initial port. 2) If you're not running -current. Don't worry about this. We need 'two' ports of JDK1.2, one to 2.2.* and one to 3.0. As much as the FreeBSD project claims that 3.0 is now -stable, I plan on leaving my development boxes running 2.2 for some time. 3) I'm not running -stable. Don' worry about this either. We also need to create a JDK for ELF/3.0, which will be slightly different than the one for 2.2 because of the poll/select changes, as well as a.out/ELF changes. 4) A great network connection. The sources will be maintained via CVS, but even if you don't have a great connection, it's not too painful to stay synchronized once the initial hit is taken. If you don't want to start doing a JDK1.2 port, we could use volunteers (with source access of course) willing to take the JDK1.1 diffs and make a 3.0/ELF JDK1.1.7 port. Using both the FreeBSD and Linux diffs together it should be fairly straighforward to build a version for 3.0. Once that is done I'd like to merge the two source trees together, which should make doing the JDK1.2 port easier (if that should happen before JDK1.2 gets going...) Whaddya say folks? Lets' get going on it! Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Sun Jan 24 17:45:32 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA23918 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 17:45:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from whistle.com (s205m131.whistle.com [207.76.205.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA23901 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 17:45:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from archie@whistle.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by whistle.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id RAA02763; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 17:44:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from bubba.whistle.com( 207.76.205.7) by whistle.com via smap (V2.0) id xma002761; Sun, 24 Jan 99 17:43:46 -0800 Received: (from archie@localhost) by bubba.whistle.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id RAA23403; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 17:43:45 -0800 (PST) From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <199901250143.RAA23403@bubba.whistle.com> Subject: Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199901242216.OAA04051@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "Jan 24, 99 02:16:03 pm" To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 17:43:45 -0800 (PST) Cc: nate@mt.sri.com, java@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Amancio Hasty writes: > kaffe, egcs/java , garbage collection, TowerJ, Microsoft's Java VM , > java world's benchmark , areas where our JDK needs improvement. I think part of the problem is that there are too many Java projects going on at the same time and not enough developers! :-) -Archie ___________________________________________________________________________ Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Sun Jan 24 17:49:32 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA24362 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 17:49:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA24357 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 17:49:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA06202; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 18:49:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA03509; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 18:49:14 -0700 Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 18:49:14 -0700 Message-Id: <199901250149.SAA03509@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Archie Cobbs Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty), nate@mt.sri.com, java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199901250143.RAA23403@bubba.whistle.com> References: <199901242216.OAA04051@rah.star-gate.com> <199901250143.RAA23403@bubba.whistle.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > kaffe, egcs/java , garbage collection, TowerJ, Microsoft's Java VM , > > java world's benchmark , areas where our JDK needs improvement. > > I think part of the problem is that there are too many Java > projects going on at the same time and not enough developers! :-) *grin* Too many people are *using* the technology to deal with developing it. :) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Sun Jan 24 17:55:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA25311 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 17:55:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (sj-dsl-9-129-138.dspeed.net [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA25306 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 17:55:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA07328; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 17:53:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199901250153.RAA07328@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Archie Cobbs cc: nate@mt.sri.com, java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 24 Jan 1999 17:43:45 PST." <199901250143.RAA23403@bubba.whistle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 17:53:52 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org We do have enough developers . We just have to motivate them and point them in the "right" direction for instance Nate's suggestion of beffing up our current jdk offering is a good point however once we get there and I expect that it will be short term project : whats next? It would be nice if TowerJ was available for FreeBSD for commercial entities to exploit. It seems to me that this small item is orthogonal to whatever engineering efforts are currently active in the Java VM front. I do believe that we have large ISPs which perhaps can benefit from products such as TowerJ . Nate, on a different topic, can you update the Java page to include a pointer to http://www.enhydra.com -- Lutries uses a FreeBSD-style copyright for their cool servlet framework. Best Regards, Amancio > Amancio Hasty writes: > > kaffe, egcs/java , garbage collection, TowerJ, Microsoft's Java VM , > > java world's benchmark , areas where our JDK needs improvement. > > I think part of the problem is that there are too many Java > projects going on at the same time and not enough developers! :-) > > -Archie > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Sun Jan 24 18:22:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA29076 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 18:22:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA29069 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 18:22:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA06470; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 19:21:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA03659; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 19:21:53 -0700 Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 19:21:53 -0700 Message-Id: <199901250221.TAA03659@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Amancio Hasty Cc: Archie Cobbs , nate@mt.sri.com, java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199901250153.RAA07328@rah.star-gate.com> References: <199901250143.RAA23403@bubba.whistle.com> <199901250153.RAA07328@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > We do have enough developers. No, we have plenty of people who claim to be developers, but no one willing to 'develop'. :) > We just have to motivate them and point > them in the "right" direction for instance Nate's suggestion of > beffing up our current jdk offering is a good point however once we > get there and I expect that it will be short term project : whats > next? I disagree. I've whined at the java-developers in the past, and it does no good. I've asked for testers dozens of times and not *once* have you responded. Also, updating our JDK is not a short-term effort. Someone could easily spend 10-20 hours/week working on it. If you were doing any development, it would be obvious. Also, once we get a good working JDK1.2, JDK1.2.1 will be released. Someone should feed the patches back to sun. What about JIT support? What about relations with a JIT vendor? We don't need a 'motivator', we need motivated people. Motivating people takes time, and is not a fun task, nor is it something that people will do on volunteer projects for any length of time w/out burning out. It's easier to just wait for motivated people to do something. > It would be nice if TowerJ was available for FreeBSD for commercial > entities to exploit. Sure it would, but have you approached them and asked for support? Have you offered to buy a license? As has been shown in the past, calls for 'talking to a vendor' have never been much use on getting software ported to FreeBSD. It takes motivated people willing to do it alone and doing more than send an email saying 'me too' to convince a vendor. > Nate, on a different topic, can you update the Java page to include > a pointer to http://www.enhydra.com -- Lutries uses a FreeBSD-style > copyright for their cool servlet framework. Feel free to commit the change in the CVS tree. I've kept it updated with whatever changes the developer have made. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Sun Jan 24 19:00:35 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA02622 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 19:00:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (sj-dsl-9-129-138.dspeed.net [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA02617 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 19:00:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA07922; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 18:58:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199901250258.SAA07922@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Nate Williams cc: Archie Cobbs , java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 24 Jan 1999 19:21:53 MST." <199901250221.TAA03659@mt.sri.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 18:58:53 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I disagree. I've whined at the java-developers in the past, and it does > no good. I've asked for testers dozens of times and not *once* have you > responded. Nate, I am contractor and usually during the duration of a contract my spare time is nill . Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Sun Jan 24 19:03:32 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA02871 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 19:03:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA02860 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 19:03:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA06766; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:03:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA03756; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:03:13 -0700 Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:03:13 -0700 Message-Id: <199901250303.UAA03756@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Amancio Hasty Cc: Nate Williams , Archie Cobbs , java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199901250258.SAA07922@rah.star-gate.com> References: <199901250221.TAA03659@mt.sri.com> <199901250258.SAA07922@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I disagree. I've whined at the java-developers in the past, and it does > > no good. I've asked for testers dozens of times and not *once* have you > > responded. > > Nate, I am contractor and usually during the duration of a contract my > spare time is nill . Amancio, I'm a full-time employee, and during the duration of my employment my spare time is almost nill. The other time is spent with family. Your life is no beter/worse than the rest of us. As a matter of fact, you get paid more and have more free time overall than the rest of us, so should we expect alot more out of you than from ourselves? Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Sun Jan 24 20:01:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA07871 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:01:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from paprika.michvhf.com (paprika.michvhf.com [209.57.60.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA07864 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:01:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from vev@michvhf.com) Received: (qmail 1556 invoked by uid 1001); 25 Jan 1999 04:00:49 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199901250153.RAA07328@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:00:49 -0500 (EST) X-Face: *0^4Iw) To: java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 25-Jan-99 Amancio Hasty wrote: > > It would be nice if TowerJ was available for FreeBSD for commercial > entities to exploit. It seems to me that this small item is orthogonal > to whatever engineering efforts are currently active in the Java VM front. > > I do believe that we have large ISPs which perhaps can benefit from > products such as TowerJ . Dumb question. What is TowerJ? I showed up at this one a bit late. Vince. -- ========================================================================== Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev@michvhf.com flame-mail: /dev/null # include TEAM-OS2 Online Searchable Campground Listings http://www.camping-usa.com "There is no outfit less entitled to lecture me about bloat than the federal government" -- Tony Snow ========================================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Sun Jan 24 20:07:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA09154 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:07:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from web2.spiders.net (web2.spiders.net [206.24.0.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA09132 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:07:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gwh@web2.spiders.net) Received: (qmail 5455 invoked by uid 2511); 25 Jan 1999 04:07:00 -0000 Message-ID: <19990124230700.J28999@spiders.com> Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:07:00 -0500 From: "Gene W. Homicki" To: java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD References: <199901250143.RAA23403@bubba.whistle.com> <199901250153.RAA07328@rah.star-gate.com> <199901250221.TAA03659@mt.sri.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199901250221.TAA03659@mt.sri.com>; from Nate Williams on Sun, Jan 24, 1999 at 07:21:53PM -0700 Organization: Objective Consulting, Inc. Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org +--- | Also, once we get a good working JDK1.2, JDK1.2.1 will be released. | Someone should feed the patches back to sun. What about JIT support? | What about relations with a JIT vendor? +--- The Solaris/x86 JDK1.2 has a JIT - I don't suppose those sources are available from Sun for porting? +--- | Sure it would, but have you approached them and asked for support? Have | you offered to buy a license? As has been shown in the past, calls for | 'talking to a vendor' have never been much use on getting software | ported to FreeBSD. It takes motivated people willing to do it alone and | doing more than send an email saying 'me too' to convince a vendor. +--- I've started that process. How hard I push them will depend on our real need - and other options that I'm looking into. Gene -- Gene W. Homicki gwh@spiders.com Objective Consulting, Inc. http://www.spiders.com/ Internet Application Design voice: +1 914.524.4151 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Sun Jan 24 20:24:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA11440 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:24:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat0690.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.190.182]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA11429 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:24:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA77193 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 00:24:31 -0400 (AST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 00:24:31 -0400 (AST) From: The Hermit Hacker To: freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Development Environments? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi... I'm looking for something in the way of a 'prototyping' environment that will work with FreeBSD for that I can do mock-ups... Basically, I want to be able to do all my development on my PII/FreeBSD machine vs an old and tired P166/Win95 machine, and need something that I can do 'front-end' design on in Java... Do we *have* anything like that available yet? Or someone is working on something? Thanks... Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Sun Jan 24 20:27:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA11721 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:27:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from wrath.cs.utah.edu (wrath.cs.utah.edu [155.99.198.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA11714 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:26:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gback@cs.utah.edu) Received: from lal.cs.utah.edu (lal.cs.utah.edu [155.99.195.65]) by wrath.cs.utah.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA16737; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 21:26:46 -0700 (MST) From: Godmar Back Received: (from gback@localhost) by lal.cs.utah.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA06493; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 21:27:55 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199901250427.VAA06493@lal.cs.utah.edu> Subject: Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD To: vev@michvhf.com (Vince Vielhaber) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 21:27:55 -0700 (MST) Cc: java@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Vince Vielhaber" at Jan 24, 99 11:00:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > On 25-Jan-99 Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > > It would be nice if TowerJ was available for FreeBSD for commercial > > entities to exploit. It seems to me that this small item is orthogonal > > to whatever engineering efforts are currently active in the Java VM front. > > > > I do believe that we have large ISPs which perhaps can benefit from > > products such as TowerJ . > > Dumb question. What is TowerJ? I showed up at this one a bit late. > It's what you call a WAT (way-ahead-of-time) compiler these days. Basically, it's traditional compiler that translates Java code (source or bytecode, I forgot which) to native code. And it's fast. A similar compiler, gcj, is being worked on by Cygnus as part of the egcs effort. - Godmar To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Sun Jan 24 20:47:14 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA14630 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:47:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (sj-dsl-9-129-138.dspeed.net [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA14624 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:47:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA08508; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:45:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199901250445.UAA08508@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Nate Williams cc: Archie Cobbs , java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:03:13 MST." <199901250303.UAA03756@mt.sri.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:45:47 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I assure you that at least one person on this list which knows what I am doing for work will agree with me that I don't have much spare time . At any rate, I think is high time that some of the FreeBSD based companies to step in and donate something whether that be code , money or giving a FreeBSD good PR. Be Happy! Amancio > > > I disagree. I've whined at the java-developers in the past, and it does > > > no good. I've asked for testers dozens of times and not *once* have you > > > responded. > > > > Nate, I am contractor and usually during the duration of a contract my > > spare time is nill . > > Amancio, I'm a full-time employee, and during the duration of my > employment my spare time is almost nill. The other time is spent with > family. > > Your life is no beter/worse than the rest of us. As a matter of fact, > you get paid more and have more free time overall than the rest of us, > so should we expect alot more out of you than from ourselves? > > > > > Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Sun Jan 24 22:12:52 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA23536 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:12:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.44.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA23525 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:12:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from glewis@maths.adelaide.edu.au) Received: (from glewis@localhost) by spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.4/8.8.4/UofA-1.5) id QAA18732 for java@freebsd.org; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 16:42:34 +1030 (CST) From: Gregory D Lewis Message-Id: <199901250612.QAA18732@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: EletricalFire To: java@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 16:42:34 +1030 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Seen on /., a new Open Source jvm/jit package called Electrical Fire. This was a Netscape internal project but is now being replaced under the NPL. "ElectricalFire is a Java Virtual Machine that uses JIT (Just In Time) compilation techniques to accelerate Java code execution. ElectricalFire was designed from the start to generate high-performance machine code and to be portable to many different processor architectures." The thing is currently incomplete and only runs on Win32 and Linux. http://www.mozilla.org/projects/ef -- Greg Lewis Applied Maths Department Email : glewis@maths.adelaide.edu.au University of Adelaide -- Hacking's just another word for nothing left to kludge. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Sun Jan 24 22:46:22 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA27188 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:46:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA27181 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:46:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA08372; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:46:19 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id XAA04606; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:46:18 -0700 Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:46:18 -0700 Message-Id: <199901250646.XAA04606@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "Gene W. Homicki" Cc: java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <19990124230700.J28999@spiders.com> References: <199901250143.RAA23403@bubba.whistle.com> <199901250153.RAA07328@rah.star-gate.com> <199901250221.TAA03659@mt.sri.com> <19990124230700.J28999@spiders.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > | Also, once we get a good working JDK1.2, JDK1.2.1 will be released. > | Someone should feed the patches back to sun. What about JIT support? > | What about relations with a JIT vendor? > +--- > > The Solaris/x86 JDK1.2 has a JIT - I don't suppose those sources are > available from Sun for porting? The JIT is the symantec JIT, and is Win32 specific. Solaris X86 does not use the symantec JIT. The Solaris JIT sources are not released. :( > | Sure it would, but have you approached them and asked for support? Have > | you offered to buy a license? As has been shown in the past, calls for > | 'talking to a vendor' have never been much use on getting software > | ported to FreeBSD. It takes motivated people willing to do it alone and > | doing more than send an email saying 'me too' to convince a vendor. > > I've started that process. How hard I push them will depend on our real > need - and other options that I'm looking into. Good deal! Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Sun Jan 24 22:47:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA27368 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:47:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA27361 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:47:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA08382; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:47:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id XAA04622; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:47:42 -0700 Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:47:42 -0700 Message-Id: <199901250647.XAA04622@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Development Environments? In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I'm looking for something in the way of a 'prototyping' > environment that will work with FreeBSD for that I can do mock-ups... > > Basically, I want to be able to do all my development on my > PII/FreeBSD machine vs an old and tired P166/Win95 machine, and need > something that I can do 'front-end' design on in Java... > > Do we *have* anything like that available yet? Or someone is > working on something? I'm not sure I follow. Are you looking for a Visual IDE, or what. (BTW - I use FreeBSD full-time to do my commercial java work. I spent the weekend debugging Win32 bugs on my FreeBSD box, which makes it much easier to develop/test Java applications that are deployed on Win32 systems....) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Sun Jan 24 22:51:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA27792 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:51:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA27787 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:51:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA08415; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:50:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id XAA04629; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:50:59 -0700 Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:50:59 -0700 Message-Id: <199901250650.XAA04629@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Vince Vielhaber Cc: java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD In-Reply-To: References: <199901250153.RAA07328@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Dumb question. What is TowerJ? I showed up at this one a bit late. TowerJ converts byte codes into a native executable on specific platforms. The resulting executable is then 'optimized' to remove many of the slowdowns in Java due to it's dynamic nature, as well as remove much of the 'intrepreted' hit that you take in Java. Speedups are generally anywhere from 2-10X a non-JIT'd application. Swing/AWT is *NOT* supported, and this is mainly meant for server applications. In benchmarks of our server application which is highly threaded (1000+ threads), we are seeing a 2-3X speedup over the native Java version. Note, this is after we've spent significant time/effort optimizing the crap out of it, so it's pretty impressive. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Sun Jan 24 22:58:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA28448 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:58:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cafe.muraoka.info.waseda.ac.jp (cafe.muraoka.info.waseda.ac.jp [133.9.68.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA28427 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:58:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shudoh@muraoka.info.waseda.ac.jp) Received: from muraoka.info.waseda.ac.jp (shudoh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cafe.muraoka.info.waseda.ac.jp (8.9.1a/3.7W) with ESMTP id PAA10468 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 15:58:12 +0900 Message-Id: <199901250658.PAA10468@cafe.muraoka.info.waseda.ac.jp> To: java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: JIT source (Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:07:00 EST." <19990124230700.J28999@spiders.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 15:58:11 +0900 From: SHUDO Kazuyuki Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The Solaris/x86 JDK1.2 has a JIT - I don't suppose those sources are > available from Sun for porting? A message to java-linux ML http://www.mail-archive.com/java-linux@java.blackdown.org/msg04084.html said, | - Sun has provided a JIT binary to Blackdown that works with x86 (the other | cpus must come up with something on their own, luckily the PPC has access | to Metrowerks JIT source) I can't assert but guess that JDK 1.2 for Linux/x86 will be released with the JIT binary. Kazuyuki SHUDO Happy Hacking! Muraoka Lab., Grad. School of Sci. & Eng., Waseda Univ. E-mail: shudoh@muraoka.info.waseda.ac.jp Address: Muraoka Lab., Waseda Univ., 3-4-1 Okubo Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 169-8555 JAPAN TEL: +81-3-3209-5198 FAX: +81-3-3209-5198 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Sun Jan 24 23:01:56 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA28930 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:01:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat0690.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.190.182]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA28923 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:01:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA78403; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 03:01:44 -0400 (AST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 03:01:43 -0400 (AST) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Nate Williams cc: freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Development Environments? In-Reply-To: <199901250647.XAA04622@mt.sri.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 24 Jan 1999, Nate Williams wrote: > > I'm looking for something in the way of a 'prototyping' > > environment that will work with FreeBSD for that I can do mock-ups... > > > > Basically, I want to be able to do all my development on my > > PII/FreeBSD machine vs an old and tired P166/Win95 machine, and need > > something that I can do 'front-end' design on in Java... > > > > Do we *have* anything like that available yet? Or someone is > > working on something? > > I'm not sure I follow. Are you looking for a Visual IDE, or what. Yes...I just took a look at Java-WorkShop on my Win95 machine (Baldur's Gate doesn't run under *any* Unix that I'm aware of *sigh*) and it pretty much does what I'm looking for...but runs dog slow (who would have thought, Microsoft and slow!) I don't need it to build up the 'guts', only the GUI interface that the user sees, and I've always hated designing/writing UIs :( > (BTW - I use FreeBSD full-time to do my commercial java work. I spent > the weekend debugging Win32 bugs on my FreeBSD box, which makes it > much easier to develop/test Java applications that are deployed on > Win32 systems....) This is why I'm trying to move towards Java...my client is pretty much *pure* Microsloth, so I'd like to be able to *design/build* in my environment, but give him product that will work in his... Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Sun Jan 24 23:09:18 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA29979 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:09:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (sj-dsl-9-129-138.dspeed.net [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA29974 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:09:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA09749; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:07:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199901250707.XAA09749@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Gregory D Lewis cc: java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: EletricalFire In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 25 Jan 1999 16:42:34 +1030." <199901250612.QAA18732@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:07:46 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Cool, Now we need to gather all the available information for various VMs in one web page . If no one volunteers , I will put up one. Tnks! Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Sun Jan 24 23:22:34 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA01687 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:22:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from netrinsics.com ([210.74.179.215]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA01677 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:22:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robinson@netrinsics.com) Received: (from robinson@localhost) by netrinsics.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id PAA02108 for java@freebsd.org; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 15:18:10 GMT (envelope-from robinson) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 15:18:10 GMT From: Michael Robinson Message-Id: <199901251518.PAA02108@netrinsics.com> To: java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: And don't forget about HotSpot... Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My understanding is that the base (non-tuned) HotSpot compiler is supposed to be available for porting as well, assuming it's ever released in the first place. -Michael Robinson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Sun Jan 24 23:24:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA01964 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:24:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cafe.muraoka.info.waseda.ac.jp (cafe.muraoka.info.waseda.ac.jp [133.9.68.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA01957 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:24:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shudoh@muraoka.info.waseda.ac.jp) Received: from muraoka.info.waseda.ac.jp (shudoh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cafe.muraoka.info.waseda.ac.jp (8.9.1a/3.7W) with ESMTP id QAA10785 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 16:24:48 +0900 Message-Id: <199901250724.QAA10785@cafe.muraoka.info.waseda.ac.jp> To: java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:45:44 MST." <199901242045.NAA01913@mt.sri.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 16:24:48 +0900 From: SHUDO Kazuyuki Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Yep, this is where FreeBSD (and less so Linux) got the crap kicked out > of it. Linux is a bit better than ours for a couple of reaasons. > 2) Our 'Green Threads' implementation uses locking that is not as > effecient as the Linux version. In particular, Linux kernel's have > poll built in, and we emulate it (badly, but effectively) with some > hacks to use select. JDK 1.1.7 for Linux/glibc use poll() and not select(). But glibc 2.0.7 which is used on most linux box replaces calls to poll with calls to select since Linux kernel prior to 2.1.23 doesn't have poll(). If we'd like to use poll() of Linux kernel, we have to use glibc 2.1 version is currently developed. JDK for Linux/libc5 use select(). See http://www.mail-archive.com/java-linux@java.blackdown.org/msg04583.html Kazuyuki SHUDO Happy Hacking! Muraoka Lab., Grad. School of Sci. & Eng., Waseda Univ. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Sun Jan 24 23:38:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA04013 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:38:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shale.csir.co.za (shale.csir.co.za [146.64.46.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA03999 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:38:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reg@shale.csir.co.za) Received: (from reg@localhost) by shale.csir.co.za (8.9.2/8.9.2) id JAA37033; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:37:16 +0200 (SAT) (envelope-from reg) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:37:16 +0200 From: Jeremy Lea To: Gregory D Lewis Cc: java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: EletricalFire Message-ID: <19990125093715.A25186@shale.csir.co.za> References: <199901250612.QAA18732@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901250612.QAA18732@spam.maths.adelaide.edu.au>; from Gregory D Lewis on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 04:42:34PM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 04:42:34PM +1030, Gregory D Lewis wrote: > The thing is currently incomplete and only runs on Win32 and Linux. Actually there where bunch of commits by Chris Toshok to get it compiling on FreeBSD, about a month ago. I haven't tried building it though. On a related note, I strted a port of Japhar (http://www.japhar.org/), to see if I could get the Open Java Interface working in Mozilla. I couldn't get it to run, doesn't seem to like the classes.zip, but it does compile. I don't know or use Java though, and was wondering if anyone wanted to take it over. Regards, -Jeremy -- .sig.gz To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Mon Jan 25 01:41:34 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA18895 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 01:41:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from isbalham.ist.co.uk (isbalham.ist.co.uk [192.31.26.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA18881 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 01:41:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rb@gid.co.uk) Received: from gid.co.uk (uucp@localhost) by isbalham.ist.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id JAA09121; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:41:28 GMT (envelope-from rb@gid.co.uk) Received: from localhost by seagoon.gid.co.uk; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:34:58 GMT Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:34:57 +0000 (GMT) From: Bob Bishop X-Sender: rb@seagoon To: The Hermit Hacker cc: Nate Williams , freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Development Environments? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, The Hermit Hacker wrote: [...] > I don't need it to build up the 'guts', only the GUI interface that the > user sees, and I've always hated designing/writing UIs :( http://www.ist.co.uk/visaj/ -- Bob Bishop +44 118 977 4017 rb@gid.co.uk fax +44 118 989 4254 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Mon Jan 25 08:34:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA06459 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 08:34:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA06453 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 08:34:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA12492; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:34:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA06347; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:34:17 -0700 Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:34:17 -0700 Message-Id: <199901251634.JAA06347@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: Nate Williams , freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Development Environments? In-Reply-To: References: <199901250647.XAA04622@mt.sri.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > I'm looking for something in the way of a 'prototyping' > > > environment that will work with FreeBSD for that I can do mock-ups... > > > > > > Basically, I want to be able to do all my development on my > > > PII/FreeBSD machine vs an old and tired P166/Win95 machine, and need > > > something that I can do 'front-end' design on in Java... > > > > > > Do we *have* anything like that available yet? Or someone is > > > working on something? > > > > I'm not sure I follow. Are you looking for a Visual IDE, or what. > > Yes...I just took a look at Java-WorkShop on my Win95 machine (Baldur's > Gate doesn't run under *any* Unix that I'm aware of *sigh*) and it pretty > much does what I'm looking for...but runs dog slow (who would have > thought, Microsoft and slow!) It is that. However, Amancio apparently got an older version of JWS working under FreeBSD a while back. Again, it's slow, but it works. > I don't need it to build up the 'guts', only the GUI interface that the > user sees, and I've always hated designing/writing UIs :( Unfortunately, I don't know of any good UI tools under FreeBSD. What a number of co-workers have done is build it under Win95, then import the code into source-code and then do the rest of the development under FreeBSD. The created GUI rarely works cross-platform due to lack of a Layout Manager, so almost all of the 'created' ones need to be tweaked anyway. > > (BTW - I use FreeBSD full-time to do my commercial java work. I spent > > the weekend debugging Win32 bugs on my FreeBSD box, which makes it > > much easier to develop/test Java applications that are deployed on > > Win32 systems....) > > This is why I'm trying to move towards Java...my client is pretty much > *pure* Microsloth, so I'd like to be able to *design/build* in my > environment, but give him product that will work in his... It's been nice. You still have to do testing on the deployed platform since it may 'run anywhere' but look like crap, but it sure beats writing everywhere and testing everywhere. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Mon Jan 25 08:39:19 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA07306 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 08:39:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA07298 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 08:39:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA12533; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:39:17 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA06409; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:39:17 -0700 Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:39:17 -0700 Message-Id: <199901251639.JAA06409@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Michael Robinson Cc: java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: And don't forget about HotSpot... In-Reply-To: <199901251518.PAA02108@netrinsics.com> References: <199901251518.PAA02108@netrinsics.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > My understanding is that the base (non-tuned) HotSpot compiler is supposed > to be available for porting as well, assuming it's ever released in the > first place. Last I heard, HotSpot wasn't going to have it's sources publically released. :( Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Mon Jan 25 08:43:48 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA08268 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 08:43:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA08260 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 08:43:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA12583; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:43:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA06472; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:43:39 -0700 Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:43:39 -0700 Message-Id: <199901251643.JAA06472@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: SHUDO Kazuyuki Cc: java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199901250724.QAA10785@cafe.muraoka.info.waseda.ac.jp> References: <199901242045.NAA01913@mt.sri.com> <199901250724.QAA10785@cafe.muraoka.info.waseda.ac.jp> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Yep, this is where FreeBSD (and less so Linux) got the crap kicked out > > of it. Linux is a bit better than ours for a couple of reaasons. > > > 2) Our 'Green Threads' implementation uses locking that is not as > > effecient as the Linux version. In particular, Linux kernel's have > > poll built in, and we emulate it (badly, but effectively) with some > > hacks to use select. > > JDK 1.1.7 for Linux/glibc use poll() and not > select(). > But glibc 2.0.7 which is used on most linux > box replaces calls to poll with calls to select since > Linux kernel prior to 2.1.23 doesn't have poll(). > > If we'd like to use poll() of Linux kernel, we have to > use glibc 2.1 version is currently developed. We don't want to use the poll() version of Linux, we want to use poll() in FreeBSD. Because the JDK assumes that poll exists, it should make things easier since we don't have to write an ugly wrapper around select to emulate poll (which should also allow us to unlimit the number of file descriptors as well....) And, according to Steve Byrne, using poll sped up their code quite a bit, so much so that they didn't fare quite so badly in the servlet benchmark like they had in the past. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Mon Jan 25 10:15:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA18438 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:15:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA18433 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:15:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA15430; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:14:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199901251814.KAA15430@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Nate Williams cc: The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Development Environments? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:34:17 MST." <199901251634.JAA06347@mt.sri.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:14:35 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sun's Java Workshop is going Open Source so it should be interesting in about 3 months or so when it gets released. Also to speed things a little JWS works with TYA . Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Mon Jan 25 10:19:03 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA18841 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:19:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hromeo.algonet.se (hromeo.algonet.se [194.213.74.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA18815 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:18:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mal@algonet.se) Received: (qmail 19514 invoked from network); 25 Jan 1999 19:18:09 +0100 Received: from kairos.algonet.se (194.213.74.18) by hromeo.algonet.se with SMTP; 25 Jan 1999 19:18:09 +0100 Received: (mal@localhost) by kairos.algonet.se (8.8.8+Sun/8.6.12) id TAA14152; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:18:09 +0100 (MET) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:18:09 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199901251818.TAA14152@kairos.algonet.se> X-Authentication-Warning: kairos.algonet.se: mal set sender to mal@kairos.algonet.se using -f From: Mats Lofkvist To: java@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199901250646.XAA04606@mt.sri.com> (message from Nate Williams on Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:46:18 -0700) Subject: Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD References: <199901250143.RAA23403@bubba.whistle.com> <199901250153.RAA07328@rah.star-gate.com> <199901250221.TAA03659@mt.sri.com> <19990124230700.J28999@spiders.com> <199901250646.XAA04606@mt.sri.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [snip] The Solaris JIT sources are not released. :( How far is FreeBSD from being able to run Solaris binaries? And how hard is it to add a feature allowing a FreeBSD binary (java) load and run a Solaris shared library (the Solaris JIT) with/without Solaris binary compatibility to begin with? _ Mats Lofkvist mal@algonet.se To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Mon Jan 25 13:13:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA11582 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:13:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat0690.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.190.182]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA11577 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:13:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA86533; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 17:13:08 -0400 (AST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 17:13:08 -0400 (AST) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Bob Bishop cc: Nate Williams , freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Development Environments? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Bob Bishop wrote: > On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > [...] > > I don't need it to build up the 'guts', only the GUI interface that the > > user sees, and I've always hated designing/writing UIs :( > > http://www.ist.co.uk/visaj/ Looks good...thanks for the pointer. Am downloading it now... Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Mon Jan 25 17:30:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA20568 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 17:30:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vaview5.vavu.vt.edu (vaview5.vavu.vt.edu [198.82.158.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA20510 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 17:30:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dglynn@vaview5.vavu.vt.edu) Received: from vaview5.vavu.vt.edu (vaview5.vavu.vt.edu [198.82.158.16]) by vaview5.vavu.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA21153 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:30:00 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dglynn@vaview5.vavu.vt.edu) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:30:00 -0500 (EST) From: Greg Lynn To: java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: ODBC Driver for MySQL... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm finding it hard to find an ODBC Driver for MySQL for FreeBSD. Does Anyone know of a GOOD driver for free or cheap?? And what's up with SUN, do they write drivers or have people write drivers for MySQL? -Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Mon Jan 25 18:23:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA01359 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:23:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from WEBBSD1.turnaround.com.au (webbsd1.turnaround.com.au [203.39.138.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA01352 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:23:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from J_Shevland@TurnAround.com.au) Received: from TurnAround.com.au (ras6.turnaround.com.au [192.168.1.116] (may be forged)) by WEBBSD1.turnaround.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA21331; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:24:33 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from J_Shevland@TurnAround.com.au) Message-ID: <36AD24B2.3810377B@TurnAround.com.au> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:13:06 +1100 From: Joe Shevland Organization: Turnaround Solutions Pty. Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lynn CC: java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ODBC Driver for MySQL... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org These are type JDBC 4 drivers plundered from: http://java.sun.com/products/jdbc/jdbc.drivers.html: -- http://www.worldserver.com/mm.mysql/ http://www.gwe.co.uk/java/jdbc/ http://www.voicenet.com/~zellert/tjFM/ -- An odbc driver came with the mySQl package from memory, if you really need to run under windows. An Sun provide the JDBC-ODBC bridge if you need to use ODBC also. Greg Lynn wrote: > I'm finding it hard to find an ODBC Driver for > MySQL for FreeBSD. Does Anyone know of a GOOD driver > for free or cheap?? And what's up with SUN, do > they write drivers or have people write drivers for > MySQL? > > -Greg > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Mon Jan 25 19:57:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA20039 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:57:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat0690.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.190.182]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA20032 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:57:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA90321; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:56:45 -0400 (AST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:56:45 -0400 (AST) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Greg Lynn cc: java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ODBC Driver for MySQL... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Greg Lynn wrote: > > I'm finding it hard to find an ODBC Driver for > MySQL for FreeBSD. Does Anyone know of a GOOD driver > for free or cheap?? And what's up with SUN, do > they write drivers or have people write drivers for > MySQL? First of all, you are most likely looking for JDBC drivers, not ODBC, no? And, no, SUN doesn't write them, or have other ppl do it...as far as I'm aware, they designed the spec for interactivity between RDBMSs and Java, but the individual 'layers' are done by third-parties... I can't help you with MySQL though, as I use PostgreSQL, and we have JDBC drivers included as part of the distribution... Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Tue Jan 26 07:57:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA23221 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 07:57:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA23214 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 07:56:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA22958; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:56:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA12157; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:56:48 -0700 Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:56:48 -0700 Message-Id: <199901261556.IAA12157@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Mats Lofkvist Cc: java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199901251818.TAA14152@kairos.algonet.se> References: <199901250143.RAA23403@bubba.whistle.com> <199901250153.RAA07328@rah.star-gate.com> <199901250221.TAA03659@mt.sri.com> <19990124230700.J28999@spiders.com> <199901250646.XAA04606@mt.sri.com> <199901251818.TAA14152@kairos.algonet.se> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > [snip] > The Solaris JIT sources are not released. :( > > How far is FreeBSD from being able to run Solaris binaries? I din't know. > And how hard is it to add a feature allowing a FreeBSD binary (java) > load and run a Solaris shared library (the Solaris JIT) with/without > Solaris binary compatibility to begin with? Really hard. Hard enough that it will probably never be done. See postings on hackers on this where Terry Lambert bogusly declared it was trivial without understanding the details. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Tue Jan 26 09:56:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA07200 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:56:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from misery.sdf.com (misery.sdf.com [204.244.213.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA07191 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:56:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tom@sdf.com) Received: from tom by misery.sdf.com with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #3) id 105BkC-0001uA-00; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:53:40 -0800 Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:53:35 -0800 (PST) From: Tom To: SHUDO Kazuyuki cc: java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199901250724.QAA10785@cafe.muraoka.info.waseda.ac.jp> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, SHUDO Kazuyuki wrote: > > Yep, this is where FreeBSD (and less so Linux) got the crap kicked out > > of it. Linux is a bit better than ours for a couple of reaasons. > > > 2) Our 'Green Threads' implementation uses locking that is not as > > effecient as the Linux version. In particular, Linux kernel's have > > poll built in, and we emulate it (badly, but effectively) with some > > hacks to use select. > > JDK 1.1.7 for Linux/glibc use poll() and not > select(). But glibc 2.0.7 which is used on most linux Yes, that is what Nate says above. > box replaces calls to poll with calls to select since > Linux kernel prior to 2.1.23 doesn't have poll(). > > If we'd like to use poll() of Linux kernel, we have to > use glibc 2.1 version is currently developed. Why? What does glibc have to do with anything? FreeBSD doesn't use glibc. FreeBSD 3.0 already has poll() > JDK for Linux/libc5 use select(). > > See http://www.mail-archive.com/java-linux@java.blackdown.org/msg04583.html > > > Kazuyuki SHUDO Happy Hacking! > Muraoka Lab., Grad. School of Sci. & Eng., Waseda Univ. Tom To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Tue Jan 26 12:18:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA24085 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:18:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA24074 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:18:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA25053; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:18:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA13723; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:18:21 -0700 Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:18:21 -0700 Message-Id: <199901262018.NAA13723@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Amancio Hasty Cc: Nate Williams , java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199901242228.OAA04162@rah.star-gate.com> References: <199901242041.NAA01895@mt.sri.com> <199901242228.OAA04162@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Linux vs. NT --- I hope that the printed version gives more info ... > > http://www.internetworld.com/print/1998/11/23/webdev/19981123-java.html This article basically compares Linux:TowerJ vs. NT:M$-JIT. The Linux JDK wasn't even involved in this test. Note, this works ok for 'embedded' Java servers, but doesn't work well in a pure servlet environment. Instead of running a 'servlet', you run an executable program which happens to be a Java program. However, you lose much of the 'dynamic' features of the Java language using the TowerJ approach, which works well for large/static installations. If TowerJ did a FreeBSD port, I suspect we could beat the pants of everyone (including Linux), but getting $50K for a FreeBSD isn't promising. :( Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Tue Jan 26 14:16:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA08679 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:16:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA08671 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:16:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA00819; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:16:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd000654; Tue Jan 26 15:16:34 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA01731; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:16:20 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199901262216.PAA01731@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD To: Nate@primenet.com, Williams@primenet.com, Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:16:20 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Mats@primenet.com, Lofkvist@primenet.com, , java@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > [snip] > > The Solaris JIT sources are not released. :( > > > > How far is FreeBSD from being able to run Solaris binaries? > > I din't know. It runs them now, and has for about two months. Mark Newton was recently given commit priviledges to be able to check his patches in, which loads an execution class for Solaris binaries as a KLD. If he hasn't checked them in yet, then you might want to either contact him directly, or check the list archives for the pointer to his patches (he posted it about a month ago). > > And how hard is it to add a feature allowing a FreeBSD binary (java) > > load and run a Solaris shared library (the Solaris JIT) with/without > > Solaris binary compatibility to begin with? > > Really hard. Hard enough that it will probably never be done. See > postings on hackers on this where Terry Lambert bogusly declared it was > trivial without understanding the details. The library is ELF, and is unrelocated, so it isn't Solaris specific excepet for partially preresolved jump table vector names. In general, the dependency is that most of these libraries are linked against the Solais libc, and bring in symbols from there. ELF provides for explicit specification of library dependencies for other libraries, and John Birrell wrote a tool a while back to allow editing of section contents (like the dependent library path). For example, a number of people have been using the Solaris CDE ELF library to get an ELF Motif 2.0 implementation that they can link against, since Sun used to offer the thing for download from their WWW site, and you can get it on the Solaris "free" ($15) CDROM. The biggest incompatability is that FreeBSD, instead of keeping the system call interface intact and adding 64 bit equivalents for things like lseek off_t's, which is what Solaris did, revamped the system call interface, breaking ABI compatability. To get around this, you have to first link a set of stubs with weak symbol wrappers for the affected functions to do the 32->64 wrapping, and some real symbols for things like lseek64. To make this actually work, these things have to make the system calls themselves, instead of relying on the default libc. Then you link like: /compat/solaris/usr/lib/libXm.a -lsol -lXt -lXext -lX11 -lc To use the Solaris libXm (Motif 2.0) library statically. It's pretty trivial (contrary to Nate's claims) to find the list of interfaces affected by just truing to link the Motif library directly. You'll get a list of unresolved externals. If the JAVA libraries do anything complicated, then you'll need to wrap some calls to convert manifest constants, e.g. FreeBSD has some ioctl() argument differences from the EABI (ELF) specifications that it has so far failed to correct, etc.. This is pretty darn easy to see by looking at the Solaris execution class KLD, which does most of these conversions. You can echo the conversions in a FreeBSD native stub library, as necessary, or, better still, fix FreeBSD to conform to the EABI. Actually, most undefined externals are not used by the Motif library; FreeBSD complains about them being unresolved because FreeBSD's linker has a bug. With a.out, it didn't force the equivalenet of LD_PRELOAD for externally referenced symbols for second order library dependencies. For ELF, they've screwed it up the other direction, and it enforces LD_PRELOAD style behaviour, even if the symbols are in dead code. You could actually stub the unused ones out, if you bothered to identify them, and ignore the wrapping altogether. Hopefully this provides you with enough information so that you can actually scale the task; IMO, it's quite approachable, even if you're not a kernel hacker type (since all you have to do with kernel code is read and understand the Solaris ABI KLD sources). Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Tue Jan 26 14:27:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA10253 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:27:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA10247 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:27:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA26131; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:26:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA14679; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:26:38 -0700 Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:26:38 -0700 Message-Id: <199901262226.PAA14679@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Terry Lambert Cc: Nate@primenet.com, Williams@primenet.com, , Mats@primenet.com, Lofkvist@primenet.com, , java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199901262216.PAA01731@usr07.primenet.com> References: <199901262216.PAA01731@usr07.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > And how hard is it to add a feature allowing a FreeBSD binary (java) > > > load and run a Solaris shared library (the Solaris JIT) with/without > > > Solaris binary compatibility to begin with? > > > > Really hard. Hard enough that it will probably never be done. See > > postings on hackers on this where Terry Lambert bogusly declared it was > > trivial without understanding the details. > > The library is ELF, and is unrelocated, so it isn't Solaris specific > excepet for partially preresolved jump table vector names. Wrong. It makes Solaris system calls, using Solaris parameters and Solaris defines. > In general, the dependency is that most of these libraries are linked > against the Solais libc, and bring in symbols from there. Right. A FreeBSD 'binary' can't make Solaris libc calls correctly. > For example, a number of people have been using the Solaris CDE ELF > library to get an ELF Motif 2.0 implementation that they can link > against, since Sun used to offer the thing for download from their > WWW site, and you can get it on the Solaris "free" ($15) CDROM. Nobody has been using the Solaris CDE ELF library to build FreeBSD binaries. As was pointed a while back, you can't 'mix' a Solaris library and a FreeBSD binary. I'd even buy you dinner if you can make anything beyond a simple toy application work with the Solaris library. I've got a FreeBSD native application that uses Motif. I'll bet you dinner that you can't make it work with the Solaris ELF library. > It's pretty trivial (contrary to Nate's claims) to find the list of > interfaces affected by just truing to link the Motif library > directly. You'll get a list of unresolved externals. Prove it. Really, I'd love for you to prove me wrong. Hand-waving a long email messages stating that it's trivial mean nothing when in fact it doesn't work. Issues such as system calls (which are the biggest problem), different library functions, etc.. can all be worked around, but not 'trivialy'. If SVR4/Solaris emulation was a worthwhile goal, someone could continually maintain it like we do with the Linux emulation, but the fact of the matter is that it's not worth it (both in terms of the code required as well as the complexity in trying to switch to 'Solaris' mode from 'FreeBSD' mode and back in a single binary.) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Tue Jan 26 15:27:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA16853 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:27:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA16847 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:27:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA12624; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:27:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd012378; Tue Jan 26 16:27:36 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA05210; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:27:02 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199901262327.QAA05210@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:27:01 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, Nate@primenet.com, Williams@primenet.com, nate@mt.sri.com, Mats@primenet.com, Lofkvist@primenet.com, mal@algonet.se, java@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199901262226.PAA14679@mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Jan 26, 99 03:26:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Really hard. Hard enough that it will probably never be done. See > > > postings on hackers on this where Terry Lambert bogusly declared it was > > > trivial without understanding the details. > > > > The library is ELF, and is unrelocated, so it isn't Solaris specific > > excepet for partially preresolved jump table vector names. > > Wrong. It makes Solaris system calls, using Solaris parameters and > Solaris defines. The libc does. The other libraries make their calls by way of libc symbols. You replace the libc, you replace the calls (but not the parameters). The parameters are only problematic if people are doing complicated things, like directly controlling devices, ejecting CDROM's, etc.. > > In general, the dependency is that most of these libraries are linked > > against the Solais libc, and bring in symbols from there. > > Right. A FreeBSD 'binary' can't make Solaris libc calls correctly. No, but it can bring the same symbols in from a FreeBSD libc, and thereby make FreeBSD libc calls. See the Linux SCO ABI code for details. > > For example, a number of people have been using the Solaris CDE ELF > > library to get an ELF Motif 2.0 implementation that they can link > > against, since Sun used to offer the thing for download from their > > WWW site, and you can get it on the Solaris "free" ($15) CDROM. > > Nobody has been using the Solaris CDE ELF library to build FreeBSD > binaries. As was pointed a while back, you can't 'mix' a Solaris > library and a FreeBSD binary. I'd even buy you dinner if you can > make anything beyond a simple toy application work with the Solaris > library. > > I've got a FreeBSD native application that uses Motif. I'll bet you > dinner that you can't make it work with the Solaris ELF library. Static library? This is almost worth giving up my Motif-taint-free status to make work... > > It's pretty trivial (contrary to Nate's claims) to find the list of > > interfaces affected by just truing to link the Motif library > > directly. You'll get a list of unresolved externals. > > Prove it. Really, I'd love for you to prove me wrong. > > Hand-waving a long email messages stating that it's trivial mean nothing > when in fact it doesn't work. Actually, if you look over the -current list archives, you'll see that someone tried and failed to link the Solaris Motif libraries. They ended up with only a few unresolved symbols, most ending with "64". O believe the total was less than 10. That should mean that you could get it linking with about 30 minutes of light work, and that you could probably have trivial programs (e.g., the ones in the "Young" and "O'REilly" Motif books) running in a relatively short period of time (say a day at most, with SEF's truss and Mark's Solaris ABI KLD in hand). > Issues such as system calls (which are the biggest problem), System calls aren't really relevent, since the calls are by way of whatever libc you link against. The biggest problem is the manifest signal constants (at least for Motif). JDK is a bigger issue, since it exposes more system interfaces. System calls would be an issue if I were trying to use Solaris's libc; I'm not. JDK libraries would probably take up to five days to make work, if you had the working Motif libraries on which JAVA depends on Solaris in hand. Probably, it's just be easier to make Sun's JAVA work under Solaris emulation. If you're going to grab their libraries, you might as well grab the shared onese, at least initially. > different library functions, etc.. can all be worked around, but > not 'trivialy'. I think you are misunderstanding my use of the word "trivial". It's a measure of complexity of the problem. If you want, you can translate it each time you see it to "there's not a lot of thought required". Digging a 500 foot long trench 1 foot deep in relatively good soil with few rocks using nothing but hand tools, for example, is trivial, but it's not something you are going to do by taking an hour one afternoon. In other words, something that is trivial is "grunt work", lacking in intellectual challenge. > If SVR4/Solaris emulation was a worthwhile goal, someone could > continually maintain it like we do with the Linux emulation, but the > fact of the matter is that it's not worth it (both in terms of the code > required as well as the complexity in trying to switch to 'Solaris' > mode from 'FreeBSD' mode and back in a single binary.) And that conclusion is based upon what? The relaive number of applications available from commercial vendors for each OS? Trivial frequently means "not interesting to solve" or "not a challenge"; it's had to get volunteers to do boring work, especially when you discourage them from trying in the first place. >From what I can see, FreeBSD could use all the grunts it can get, if only to play catch-up to Linux. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Tue Jan 26 15:47:22 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA19033 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:47:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA19024 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:47:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA26782; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:47:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA15778; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:47:17 -0700 Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:47:17 -0700 Message-Id: <199901262347.QAA15778@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199901262327.QAA05210@usr01.primenet.com> References: <199901262226.PAA14679@mt.sri.com> <199901262327.QAA05210@usr01.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ Your mailer is scrambling everyone's email address by assuming they're all on primenet.com ] > > > > Really hard. Hard enough that it will probably never be done. See > > > > postings on hackers on this where Terry Lambert bogusly declared it was > > > > trivial without understanding the details. > > > > > > The library is ELF, and is unrelocated, so it isn't Solaris specific > > > excepet for partially preresolved jump table vector names. > > > > Wrong. It makes Solaris system calls, using Solaris parameters and > > Solaris defines. > > The libc does. The other libraries make their calls by way of libc > symbols. You replace the libc, you replace the calls (but not the > parameters). > > The parameters are only problematic if people are doing complicated > things, like directly controlling devices, ejecting CDROM's, etc.. Or complicated things like select, poll, and ioctl, network calls, writing, signals, etc... You know, very OS specific calls that differ greatly between OS's. (And yes, I'm very aware of these because of the JDK porting effort.) > > > For example, a number of people have been using the Solaris CDE ELF > > > library to get an ELF Motif 2.0 implementation that they can link > > > against, since Sun used to offer the thing for download from their > > > WWW site, and you can get it on the Solaris "free" ($15) CDROM. > > > > Nobody has been using the Solaris CDE ELF library to build FreeBSD > > binaries. As was pointed a while back, you can't 'mix' a Solaris > > library and a FreeBSD binary. I'd even buy you dinner if you can > > make anything beyond a simple toy application work with the Solaris > > library. No comment? > > I've got a FreeBSD native application that uses Motif. I'll bet you > > dinner that you can't make it work with the Solaris ELF library. > > Static library? This is almost worth giving up my Motif-taint-free > status to make work... Shared library, since that's all we have available to us, and what you claimed could be done above. Although, I'd settle for a static link. (Although I have access to an FreeBSD ELF/Motif library. :) > > > It's pretty trivial (contrary to Nate's claims) to find the list of > > > interfaces affected by just truing to link the Motif library > > > directly. You'll get a list of unresolved externals. > > > > Prove it. Really, I'd love for you to prove me wrong. > > > > Hand-waving a long email messages stating that it's trivial mean nothing > > when in fact it doesn't work. > > Actually, if you look over the -current list archives, you'll see that > someone tried and failed to link the Solaris Motif libraries. Mike talked about it trying it, but I don't remember him giving any details. > They > ended up with only a few unresolved symbols, most ending with "64". O > believe the total was less than 10. See above. Also, the linking is the *easy* part. It's providing the 'shim' to convert all of the calls to/from the shlib that's the hard part. > That should mean that you could get it linking with about 30 minutes > of light work, and that you could probably have trivial programs (e.g., > the ones in the "Young" and "O'REilly" Motif books) running in a relatively > short period of time (say a day at most, with SEF's truss and Mark's > Solaris ABI KLD in hand). I disagree. Select/poo is used all over the place in Motif (the event libs), so I doubt even trivial applications would work. > > Issues such as system calls (which are the biggest problem), > > System calls aren't really relevent, since the calls are by way of > whatever libc you link against. Sure they are. The Solaris ELF library assumes that the constants are the same for all the function calls in FreeBSD as they were in Solaris, which is the wrong assumption. Also, you have to assume that none of the shlib include files (the ELF Motif and/or JIT) also make any assumptions about the OS in question that are invalid (filename size, etc...) > System calls would be an issue if I were trying to use Solaris's > libc; I'm not. You have to look like Solaris's libc, because the shlib is expecting that 'ioctl(a, b, c)' looks the same in FreeBSD as it does in Solaris, as the JIT is calling them. > JDK libraries would probably take up to five days to make work, if you > had the working Motif libraries on which JAVA depends on Solaris in hand. Right. As with all of your ideas, one/two weeks worth of work and things'll be there, so why bother. Thank goodness you aren't in management, else you'd be killed by your own staff. :) > > different library functions, etc.. can all be worked around, but > > not 'trivialy'. > > I think you are misunderstanding my use of the word "trivial". It's > a measure of complexity of the problem. If you want, you can translate > it each time you see it to "there's not a lot of thought required". Then use a different word instead. Trivial implies 'easy, nothing much to do'. Also, I disagree that it's trivial. *MOST* of the work is 'easy stuff' (just like most of the stuff we do at our jobs), it's the last 10% that's hard. The hard part is rarely designing the algorithms, it's trying to make it 'fit' into the already existing framework w/out breaking everything else. There is where most of the challenge in software is nowadays. Anyone can 'make it work', but few can make it work well and still keep it extendable/understandable/maintainable. Working for one of the world's largest research institute makes it obvious (at least to me) that really good ideas come along infrequently. Anyone can come up with a solution that works in a 'box', but making it work outside the box is something quite different. Generic solutions to existing problems take 'engineering' solutions, and involve mostly 'trivial' (your word, not mine) work. Your definition of the word trivial implies that it's 'beneath you', which is just your ego getting out of control. ;) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Tue Jan 26 17:32:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA03152 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:32:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cafe.muraoka.info.waseda.ac.jp (cafe.muraoka.info.waseda.ac.jp [133.9.68.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA03147 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:32:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shudoh@muraoka.info.waseda.ac.jp) Received: from muraoka.info.waseda.ac.jp (shudoh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cafe.muraoka.info.waseda.ac.jp (8.9.1a/3.7W) with ESMTP id KAA26867; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:32:32 +0900 Message-Id: <199901270132.KAA26867@cafe.muraoka.info.waseda.ac.jp> To: Tom Cc: java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:53:35 JST." Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:32:32 +0900 From: SHUDO Kazuyuki Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Yep, this is where FreeBSD (and less so Linux) got the crap kicked out > > > of it. Linux is a bit better than ours for a couple of reaasons. > > > > 2) Our 'Green Threads' implementation uses locking that is not as > > > effecient as the Linux version. In particular, Linux kernel's have > > > poll built in, and we emulate it (badly, but effectively) with some > > > hacks to use select. As above, Nate said that Linux kernels have poll built in so why Linux 'Green Threads' implementation is a bit better than FreeBSD one. This is incorrect. because, > > JDK 1.1.7 for Linux/glibc use poll() and not > > select(). But glibc 2.0.7 which is used on most linux > > box replaces calls to poll with calls to select since > > Linux kernel prior to 2.1.23 doesn't have poll(). JDK on most Linux boxes don't make use of poll(). A system call poll() isn't used by JDK with glibc 2.0.X even if the Linux kernel has it. Poll() is being emulated also on Linux boxes. > > If we'd like to use poll() of Linux kernel, we have to > > use glibc 2.1 version is currently developed. > > Why? What does glibc have to do with anything? FreeBSD doesn't use > glibc. FreeBSD 3.0 already has poll() Sorry for my misleading sentence. Of course, we have not to use glibc on FreeBSD. I should have to say, if we'd like to use poll *on* Linux, we have to... Kazuyuki SHUDO Happy Hacking! Muraoka Lab., School of Sci. Eng., Waseda Univ. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Tue Jan 26 17:43:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA04601 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:43:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from WEBBSD1.turnaround.com.au (webbsd1.turnaround.com.au [203.39.138.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA04590 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:43:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from J_Shevland@TurnAround.com.au) Received: from tasshev (dhcp110.turnaround.com.au [192.168.1.110] (may be forged)) by WEBBSD1.turnaround.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA26650; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:44:50 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from J_Shevland@TurnAround.com.au) Reply-To: From: "Joe Shevland" To: "Nate Williams" Cc: Subject: RE: JDK1.2 active porters sought Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:40:05 +1100 Message-ID: <000d01be4995$f70fdfc0$6e01a8c0@tasshev.turnaround.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <199901242339.QAA02734@mt.sri.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Geez they were quick about that! Finally finsihed downloading all 20+ MB of it. What's the best way for us to all keep in sync and not reinvent any wheels? Can we set up a CVS repository somewhere? Cheers, Joe. ---------------------|============================= Joe Shevland | TurnAround Solutions Principal Consultant | Hobart, Australia No unsolicited email | Voice (03) 6224 9146 | http://www.TurnAround.com.au ---------------------|============================= > -----Original Message----- > From: Nate Williams [mailto:nate@mt.sri.com] > Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 10:39 AM > To: J_Shevland@TurnAround.com.au > Cc: Nate Williams > Subject: RE: JDK1.2 active porters sought > > > > > What you need to become a porter is: > > > 1) A copy of the JDK1.2 sources. Checkout www.javasoft.com. > Ignore the > > > fact that the 'education source license' has JDK1.1 > written all over > > > it. If you submit it, you will be given access to the > JDK1.2 sources. > > > > Okey Dokey. Faxed off the license and will patiently await the source > > code/email instructions. > > Thanks! > > > Nate > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Tue Jan 26 18:24:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA09239 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:24:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gras-varg.worldgate.com (gras-varg.worldgate.com [198.161.84.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA09230 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:24:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from skafte@gras-varg.worldgate.com) Received: (from skafte@localhost) by gras-varg.worldgate.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id TAA24724; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:24:39 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:24:35 -0700 From: Greg Skafte To: Greg Lynn Cc: java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ODBC Driver for MySQL... Message-ID: <19990126192428.B23802@gras-varg.worldgate.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: ; from Greg Lynn on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 08:30:00PM -0500 Organization: WorldGate Inc. X-PGP-Fingerprint: 42 9C 2C A8 4D 2B C9 C4 7D B6 00 B0 50 47 20 97 X-URL: http://gras-varg.worldgate.com/~skafte Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.tcx.se/Contrib lists a couple of jdbc choices Quoting Greg Lynn (dglynn@vaview5.vavu.vt.edu) On Subject: ODBC Driver for MySQL... Date: Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 08:30:00PM -0500 > > I'm finding it hard to find an ODBC Driver for > MySQL for FreeBSD. Does Anyone know of a GOOD driver > for free or cheap?? And what's up with SUN, do > they write drivers or have people write drivers for > MySQL? > > -Greg > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message -- Email: skafte@worldgate.com Voice: +403 413 1910 Fax: +403 421 4929 #575 Sun Life Place * 10123 99 Street * Edmonton, AB * Canada * T5J 3H1 -- -- When things can't get any worse, they simplify themselves by getting a whole lot worse then complicated. A complete and utter disaster is the simplest thing in the world; it's preventing one that's complex. (Janet Morris) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Tue Jan 26 21:01:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA26082 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:01:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA26074 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:01:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA29220; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:01:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA18201; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:01:05 -0700 Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:01:05 -0700 Message-Id: <199901270501.WAA18201@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Cc: "Nate Williams" , Subject: RE: JDK1.2 active porters sought In-Reply-To: <000d01be4995$f70fdfc0$6e01a8c0@tasshev.turnaround.com.au> References: <199901242339.QAA02734@mt.sri.com> <000d01be4995$f70fdfc0$6e01a8c0@tasshev.turnaround.com.au> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Geez they were quick about that! Finally finsihed downloading all 20+ MB of > it. > > What's the best way for us to all keep in sync and not reinvent any wheels? > Can we set up a CVS repository somewhere? Sure, but why don't you start working on it first. I'm kind of in the middle of a fire-drill right now, and don't have time to setup a repository and do source-license verification of the userbase this week. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Tue Jan 26 21:14:03 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA27555 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:14:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA27549 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:14:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA29378; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:13:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA18478; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:13:54 -0700 Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:13:54 -0700 Message-Id: <199901270513.WAA18478@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: SHUDO Kazuyuki Cc: Tom , java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199901270132.KAA26867@cafe.muraoka.info.waseda.ac.jp> References: <199901270132.KAA26867@cafe.muraoka.info.waseda.ac.jp> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > > Yep, this is where FreeBSD (and less so Linux) got the crap kicked out > > > > of it. Linux is a bit better than ours for a couple of reaasons. > > > > > > 2) Our 'Green Threads' implementation uses locking that is not as > > > > effecient as the Linux version. In particular, Linux kernel's have > > > > poll built in, and we emulate it (badly, but effectively) with some > > > > hacks to use select. > > As above, Nate said that Linux kernels have poll built > in so why Linux 'Green Threads' implementation is a bit > better than FreeBSD one. This is incorrect. because, > > > > JDK 1.1.7 for Linux/glibc use poll() and not > > > select(). But glibc 2.0.7 which is used on most linux > > > box replaces calls to poll with calls to select since > > > Linux kernel prior to 2.1.23 doesn't have poll(). > > JDK on most Linux boxes don't make use of poll(). A > system call poll() isn't used by JDK with glibc 2.0.X > even if the Linux kernel has it. Poll() is being > emulated also on Linux boxes. I suspect the boxes that use select aren't the ones being used in the benchmark tests. According to what I've heard, they got much faster performance when they did some poll tests (vs. select). And, as I originally stated, that is just *one* reason it's faster. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Wed Jan 27 11:41:18 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA29872 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:41:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA29867 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:41:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA13690; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:40:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd013355; Wed Jan 27 12:40:46 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA17619; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:40:10 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199901271940.MAA17619@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:40:10 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, nate@mt.sri.com, java@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199901262347.QAA15778@mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Jan 26, 99 04:47:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Nobody has been using the Solaris CDE ELF library to build FreeBSD > > > binaries. As was pointed a while back, you can't 'mix' a Solaris > > > library and a FreeBSD binary. I'd even buy you dinner if you can > > > make anything beyond a simple toy application work with the Solaris > > > library. > > No comment? I know at least one person who is using the copy from the Sun download. If you think I'm going to turn them in to be pursued for license violation, you're crazy. > > > I've got a FreeBSD native application that uses Motif. I'll bet you > > > dinner that you can't make it work with the Solaris ELF library. > > > > Static library? This is almost worth giving up my Motif-taint-free > > status to make work... > > Shared library, since that's all we have available to us, and what you > claimed could be done above. Although, I'd settle for a static link. > (Although I have access to an FreeBSD ELF/Motif library. :) The Solaris CD is shared; the download included the full developement environment. > > They > > ended up with only a few unresolved symbols, most ending with "64". O > > believe the total was less than 10. > > See above. Also, the linking is the *easy* part. It's providing the > 'shim' to convert all of the calls to/from the shlib that's the hard > part. And I think this "shim" is already well documented in the KLD for the Solaris ABI module. Yes, I don't know for sure if the Solaris JDK code will run under the ABI, but Oracle does, and so, apparently, does Lotus Notes. I know we all have a bias that the stuff we are doing is harder than the stuff anyone else is doing, but frankly I can't see that the JDK would be any more dependent than the other foreign binaries. > > That should mean that you could get it linking with about 30 minutes > > of light work, and that you could probably have trivial programs (e.g., > > the ones in the "Young" and "O'REilly" Motif books) running in a relatively > > short period of time (say a day at most, with SEF's truss and Mark's > > Solaris ABI KLD in hand). > > I disagree. Select/poo is used all over the place in Motif (the event > libs), so I doubt even trivial applications would work. Implementing select or poll is trivial. Yeah, some FreeBSD device drivers may have to change; so what? Are we now talking about the politics of the changes being committed? I don't care about politics, if that's what we're doing. > > > Issues such as system calls (which are the biggest problem), > > > > System calls aren't really relevent, since the calls are by way of > > whatever libc you link against. > > Sure they are. The Solaris ELF library assumes that the constants are > the same for all the function calls in FreeBSD as they were in Solaris, > which is the wrong assumption. For the most part, this is true. For places this is not true, the answer is easy: change FreeBSD. Put it another way: there's no way we're going to be able to change Solaris, so FreeBSD is the only thing that *can* be changed. > Also, you have to assume that none of > the shlib include files (the ELF Motif and/or JIT) also make any > assumptions about the OS in question that are invalid (filename size, > etc...) Yeah. I'm making the assumption that this is either true, or very nearly true, and for the places it isn't that truss and a copy of Solaris in hand (with it's truss to compare against) would be enough. > > System calls would be an issue if I were trying to use Solaris's > > libc; I'm not. > > You have to look like Solaris's libc, because the shlib is expecting > that 'ioctl(a, b, c)' looks the same in FreeBSD as it does in Solaris, > as the JIT is calling them. The ioctl() is much less of a problem, IMO. I don't think it's that frequent, and where it *is* used, I have no problem hacking up either a non-weak wrapper in a stub or, preferrably, FreeBSD. > > JDK libraries would probably take up to five days to make work, if you > > had the working Motif libraries on which JAVA depends on Solaris in hand. > > Right. As with all of your ideas, one/two weeks worth of work and > things'll be there, so why bother. No, the "why bother" comes from this not being intellectually challenging, and me wanting to spend my free time being challenged; otherwise I'd be watching TV. I'm certain you could find someone who both (a) cared and (b) found the work challenging enough to be worth their time. But that's your job, not mine, since I'm not in FreeBSD's "management". 8-). > > > different library functions, etc.. can all be worked around, but > > > not 'trivialy'. > > > > I think you are misunderstanding my use of the word "trivial". It's > > a measure of complexity of the problem. If you want, you can translate > > it each time you see it to "there's not a lot of thought required". > > Then use a different word instead. Trivial implies 'easy, nothing much > to do'. Not to a mathematician or a scientist, it doesn't. > Also, I disagree that it's trivial. *MOST* of the work is > 'easy stuff' (just like most of the stuff we do at our jobs), it's the > last 10% that's hard. The hard part is rarely designing the algorithms, > it's trying to make it 'fit' into the already existing framework w/out > breaking everything else. I'll be happy to help you with any hard stuff you run into; how's that for an offer? > There is where most of the challenge in software is nowadays. Anyone > can 'make it work', but few can make it work well and still keep it > extendable/understandable/maintainable. 8-). You're a great straight-man, but I'm not going to bite... 8-). > Working for one of the world's largest research institute makes it > obvious (at least to me) that really good ideas come along infrequently. There are tons of good ideas. I personally have more ideas that I believe are good than I'm going to be able to execute within twice my expected lifetime. I'm forced to pick and choose. > Your definition of the word trivial implies that it's 'beneath you', > which is just your ego getting out of control. ;) Nope. It's me deciding where it's most worthwhile to me to spend what free time I have. If anything, I'm being selfish, not egotistical; and I'm even more "selfish", since I won't GPL the stuff that I do spend my time on... it's a matter of perspective. I guess I'm just one of those evil "hoarders". ;-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Wed Jan 27 11:53:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA01396 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:53:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA01389 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:53:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA06117; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:53:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA22848; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:53:22 -0700 Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:53:22 -0700 Message-Id: <199901271953.MAA22848@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199901271940.MAA17619@usr07.primenet.com> References: <199901262347.QAA15778@mt.sri.com> <199901271940.MAA17619@usr07.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > > Nobody has been using the Solaris CDE ELF library to build FreeBSD > > > > binaries. As was pointed a while back, you can't 'mix' a Solaris > > > > library and a FreeBSD binary. I'd even buy you dinner if you can > > > > make anything beyond a simple toy application work with the Solaris > > > > library. > > > > No comment? > > I know at least one person who is using the copy from the Sun > download. If you think I'm going to turn them in to be pursued > for license violation, you're crazy. I don't believe they are doing that, and your blowing smoke. > > > > I've got a FreeBSD native application that uses Motif. I'll bet you > > > > dinner that you can't make it work with the Solaris ELF library. > > > > > > Static library? This is almost worth giving up my Motif-taint-free > > > status to make work... > > > > Shared library, since that's all we have available to us, and what you > > claimed could be done above. Although, I'd settle for a static link. > > (Although I have access to an FreeBSD ELF/Motif library. :) > > The Solaris CD is shared; the download included the full developement > environment. Then shared works for me too. > > > They > > > ended up with only a few unresolved symbols, most ending with "64". O > > > believe the total was less than 10. > > > > See above. Also, the linking is the *easy* part. It's providing the > > 'shim' to convert all of the calls to/from the shlib that's the hard > > part. > > And I think this "shim" is already well documented in the KLD for > the Solaris ABI module. Yes, I don't know for sure if the Solaris > JDK code will run under the ABI, but Oracle does, and so, apparently, > does Lotus Notes. We're talking two different problems here. One is a 'completely' separate SVR4 emulation model, and the other is hybrid of FreeBSD binaries and SVR4 (or other) shared libraries. > I know we all have a bias that the stuff we are doing is harder than > the stuff anyone else is doing, but frankly I can't see that the JDK > would be any more dependent than the other foreign binaries. Never said it was hard, but that it's alot of stuff to deal with since it requires alot of OS hooks, unlike most 'foreign binaries'. (Although I would guess that Oracle would be in the same class because it tries to do lots of 'performance' gaining calls. > > > That should mean that you could get it linking with about 30 minutes > > > of light work, and that you could probably have trivial programs (e.g., > > > the ones in the "Young" and "O'REilly" Motif books) running in a relatively > > > short period of time (say a day at most, with SEF's truss and Mark's > > > Solaris ABI KLD in hand). > > > > I disagree. Select/poo is used all over the place in Motif (the event > > libs), so I doubt even trivial applications would work. > > Implementing select or poll is trivial. Yeah, some FreeBSD device > drivers may have to change; so what? Are we now talking about the > politics of the changes being committed? I don't care about politics, > if that's what we're doing. No, I meant that you have to determine *which* portion of the binary is calling select/poll (the FreeBSD portion or the Solaris portion), and then 'munge' the system to expect that. Basically, what you're trying to do is put a small-block Chevy engine in a BMW. Yes, it can be done, but it's not easy and the resulting car is probably worse than the original Chevy and the BMW in terms of performance and reliability. > > > > Issues such as system calls (which are the biggest problem), > > > > > > System calls aren't really relevent, since the calls are by way of > > > whatever libc you link against. > > > > Sure they are. The Solaris ELF library assumes that the constants are > > the same for all the function calls in FreeBSD as they were in Solaris, > > which is the wrong assumption. > > For the most part, this is true. > > For places this is not true, the answer is easy: change FreeBSD. Then you lose backwards compatability with FreeBSD, which arguably has a larger installed based than Solaris/x86. In other words, that's a stupid idea. > Put it another way: there's no way we're going to be able to change > Solaris, so FreeBSD is the only thing that *can* be changed. Put it another way, cutting off your nose to spite your face is still stupid. > > Also, you have to assume that none of > > the shlib include files (the ELF Motif and/or JIT) also make any > > assumptions about the OS in question that are invalid (filename size, > > etc...) > > > Yeah. I'm making the assumption that this is either true, or very > nearly true, and for the places it isn't that truss and a copy of > Solaris in hand (with it's truss to compare against) would be enough. All of a sudden this 'trivial' excercise is no longer trivial. (My definition, not yours.) You claimed a weeks work, and we're *way* beyond that now. > > > System calls would be an issue if I were trying to use Solaris's > > > libc; I'm not. > > > > You have to look like Solaris's libc, because the shlib is expecting > > that 'ioctl(a, b, c)' looks the same in FreeBSD as it does in Solaris, > > as the JIT is calling them. > > The ioctl() is much less of a problem, IMO. I don't think it's that > frequent, and where it *is* used, I have no problem hacking up either > a non-weak wrapper in a stub or, preferrably, FreeBSD. IOCTL is used *ALL OVER* to setup socket timeout and such. It's non-trivial. > > > JDK libraries would probably take up to five days to make work, if you > > > had the working Motif libraries on which JAVA depends on Solaris in hand. > > > > Right. As with all of your ideas, one/two weeks worth of work and > > things'll be there, so why bother. > > No, the "why bother" comes from this not being intellectually > challenging, and me wanting to spend my free time being challenged; > otherwise I'd be watching TV. Terry, you have *yet* to complete a project in FreeBSD/NetBSD/etc.. , because as soon as they get 'interesting' (otherwise known as finishing the details that make the proof of concept usable beyond trivial applications), you throw your hands up in the air and claim the remaining stuff is 'trivial' to implement, when in fact as has shown that finishing those projects that have been adopted is *FAR* from trivial. In other words, you're being lazy, and 'trivial' is a good excuse to avoid doing the hard work. > > > > different library functions, etc.. can all be worked around, but > > > > not 'trivialy'. > > > > > > I think you are misunderstanding my use of the word "trivial". It's > > > a measure of complexity of the problem. If you want, you can translate > > > it each time you see it to "there's not a lot of thought required". > > > > Then use a different word instead. Trivial implies 'easy, nothing much > > to do'. > > Not to a mathematician or a scientist, it doesn't. Sure it does. You're no more a mathematician or a scientist more than I, and I consider the word incorrect. > > Working for one of the world's largest research institute makes it > > obvious (at least to me) that really good ideas come along infrequently. > > There are tons of good ideas. I personally have more ideas that I > believe are good than I'm going to be able to execute within twice > my expected lifetime. I'm forced to pick and choose. And never finish *any* of them. :( Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Wed Jan 27 14:51:12 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA24680 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:51:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA24665 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:51:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22446; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:51:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd022290; Wed Jan 27 15:50:57 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA28087; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:50:47 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199901272250.PAA28087@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:50:45 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, nate@mt.sri.com, java@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199901271953.MAA22848@mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Jan 27, 99 12:53:22 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by usr05.primenet.com id PAA28087 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id OAA24670 Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > No comment? > > > > I know at least one person who is using the copy from the Sun > > download. If you think I'm going to turn them in to be pursued > > for license violation, you're crazy. > > I don't believe they are doing that, and your blowing smoke. And you're a Sun/SPA shill. Are we done with name-calling? > > And I think this "shim" is already well documented in the KLD for > > the Solaris ABI module. Yes, I don't know for sure if the Solaris > > JDK code will run under the ABI, but Oracle does, and so, apparently, > > does Lotus Notes. > > We're talking two different problems here. One is a 'completely' > separate SVR4 emulation model, and the other is hybrid of FreeBSD > binaries and SVR4 (or other) shared libraries. If Sun can do it in user space for SunOS 4.1.3 binaries, then Nate can do it in user space for Solaris x86 binaries on FreeBSD. This is not rocket science. This is not new territory. This is not particularly challenging. There's absolutely *no* difference between the argument conversion code living in user space vs. it living in the kernel. The Motif code does not have a large investment in the architecture of the OS on which it is run -- it is portable code. As I've previously stated, JAVA has a larger investment, but the overall investment is small compared to, for example, a device driver. > > I know we all have a bias that the stuff we are doing is harder than > > the stuff anyone else is doing, but frankly I can't see that the JDK > > would be any more dependent than the other foreign binaries. > > Never said it was hard, but that it's alot of stuff to deal with since > it requires alot of OS hooks, unlike most 'foreign binaries'. (Although > I would guess that Oracle would be in the same class because it tries to > do lots of 'performance' gaining calls. Precisely why I cited the Oracle success, which you can independently verify without having to "stoop" to granting me any credibility whatsoever, since you are loathe to do so. > > > I disagree. Select/poo is used all over the place in Motif (the event > > > libs), so I doubt even trivial applications would work. > > > > Implementing select or poll is trivial. Yeah, some FreeBSD device > > drivers may have to change; so what? Are we now talking about the > > politics of the changes being committed? I don't care about politics, > > if that's what we're doing. > > No, I meant that you have to determine *which* portion of the binary is > calling select/poll (the FreeBSD portion or the Solaris portion), and > then 'munge' the system to expect that. The part that's linked with the Solaris SHIM library. E.g.: ,-------------------------------------------------------. | FreeBSD Application | `-------------------------------------------------------' ,---------------.,--------------------------------------. | Solaris Motif || | `---------------'| | ,---------------.| | | libc SHIM || FreeBSD libc | `---------------'| | ,----------------' | | | `-------------------------------------------------------' U ---------------------------------------------------------------- ,-------------------------------------------------------. K | FreeBSD ABI | `-------------------------------------------------------' In other words, the Solais Motif is modified to reference the SHIM library as if it were the real libc, and the application, if it calls "poll" (which it shouldn't, directly, since it should register an AppInput source, if it were a correctly written Motif program), gets the one from the real libc, *NOT* the shim. This is all very easy to do using the tools John Birrell has provided, and I really have a very hard time fathoming how this is any more difficult to do than: ,-------------------------------------------------------. | Solaris Application | `-------------------------------------------------------' ,---------------.,--------------------------------------. | Solaris Motif || | `---------------'| Solaris libc | ,----------------' | | | `-------------------------------------------------------' U ---------------------------------------------------------------- ,-------------------------------------------------------. K | Solaris ABI | | ,- ---------------------' `-------------------------------',----------------------. ,--------------------------------' | | FreeBSD ABI | `-------------------------------------------------------' It's the same damn wrapper code in both cases. Except, well, you have to buy Solaris for the second one because you need a legal copy of the Solaris libc because some frigging idiot failed to statically link the Solaris Application, whereas I am free to statically link the Solaris Motif library in the FreeBSD Application and thereby avoid shooting myself in the head with the need to buy Solaris anyway (which would beg the question of "Why the hell use FreeBSD?". > Basically, what you're trying to do is put a small-block Chevy engine in > a BMW. Yes, it can be done, but it's not easy and the resulting car is > probably worse than the original Chevy and the BMW in terms of > performance and reliability. No, that's not what I'm trying to do. Eventually, FreeBSD should be made to conform to the Solaris ABI so that applications don't need futzing -- EITHER by way of the ABI module and a set of user space shared compatability libraries, or by *only* a set of user space shared compatability libraries, or both so that static and dynamic code will work, OR by way of the Solaris ABI evolving into FreeBSD's native ABI. > > For places this is not true, the answer is easy: change FreeBSD. > > Then you lose backwards compatability with FreeBSD, which arguably has a > larger installed based than Solaris/x86. In other words, that's a > stupid idea. You mean like going to ELF. No, you mean like unmapping page zero so that NULL dereferences cause a fault. No, wait, you mean like changing off_t to be a 64 bit value. No, no, I have it, you mean like changing the arguments to the mount system call. AHA! You mean like the issetuid call addition. No, you mean like changing the size/layout of the proc struct. Come off of it. The Solaris ABI is a hell of a lot more stable, and FreeBSD has a history of blanket violations that fall into the category of what you have just called "a stupid idea". Perhaps they all *were* "a stupid idea"; so what? Bite the bullet one last time, and you get to avoid all of the future "a stupid idea" that you're otherwise going to have to put up with. > > Put it another way: there's no way we're going to be able to change > > Solaris, so FreeBSD is the only thing that *can* be changed. > > Put it another way, cutting off your nose to spite your face is still > stupid. I understand the analogy. Now explain how it applies: how is conforming to an ABI that buys you 1000 times the number of commercial applications that Linux has curtting off your nose? > > > Also, you have to assume that none of > > > the shlib include files (the ELF Motif and/or JIT) also make any > > > assumptions about the OS in question that are invalid (filename size, > > > etc...) > > > > Yeah. I'm making the assumption that this is either true, or very > > nearly true, and for the places it isn't that truss and a copy of > > Solaris in hand (with it's truss to compare against) would be enough. > > All of a sudden this 'trivial' excercise is no longer trivial. (My > definition, not yours.) You claimed a weeks work, and we're *way* > beyond that now. No, we're not. We are not over 40 hours work. Pay me my going rate times 40 hours, and I'll do the work on a fixed price contract. If I go over the time budget, it's costing me money and you'll get to shoot me in the shorts with that fact. > > The ioctl() is much less of a problem, IMO. I don't think it's that > > frequent, and where it *is* used, I have no problem hacking up either > > a non-weak wrapper in a stub or, preferrably, FreeBSD. > > IOCTL is used *ALL OVER* to setup socket timeout and such. It's > non-trivial. Bull. > > No, the "why bother" comes from this not being intellectually > > challenging, and me wanting to spend my free time being challenged; > > otherwise I'd be watching TV. > > Terry, you have *yet* to complete a project in FreeBSD/NetBSD/etc.. , Actually, I have a number of projects that have been completed and integrated into both systems. LKM's were mine. People may say "they're stupid", but I've saved the email where Garrett refused to allow a linker ton the kernel to make them non-stupid. FreeBSD only picked them up to keep up with NetBSD, in fact; they had to be dragged kicking and screaming. The FreeBSD kern/init_main.c and linker set based SYSINIT code is mine. Booted your FreeBSD box lately? > because as soon as they get 'interesting' (otherwise known as finishing > the details that make the proof of concept usable beyond trivial > applications), you throw your hands up in the air and claim the > remaining stuff is 'trivial' to implement, when in fact as has shown > that finishing those projects that have been adopted is *FAR* from > trivial. No, actually, it's because people who can't understand code won't commit it without understanding the code fully, and they're not willing to make the time commitment it takes to sit down and understand it. That's a significant difference between Linux and FreeBSD, in fact: Linux doesn't give a flying about how the code works, it's enough for them that it *works*, and understanding can come later. Yeah, they've shot themselves in the foot a couple of times over that one, but I've had a hell of a lot less trouble giving fixes back to FreeBSD than I have to Linux. > In other words, you're being lazy, and 'trivial' is a good excuse to > avoid doing the hard work. Pay me to do the boring work, and I will do the boring work. Otherwise, get out of my face. You can't "piss me off" into compliance with your whims about what you think I should or shouldn't be doing to help you. > > Not to a mathematician or a scientist, it doesn't. > > Sure it does. You're no more a mathematician or a scientist more than > I, and I consider the word incorrect. Well, you're no more a lexicographer than Noah Webster, and he disagrees with you: ] Main Entry: triv·i·al ] Pronunciation: 'tri-vE-&l ] Function: adjective ] Etymology: Latin trivialis found everywhere, commonplace, from trivium crossroads, from tri- + via way -- more at WAY ] Date: 1589 ] 1 : COMMONPLACE, ORDINARY ] 2 a : of little worth or importance b : relating to or being the mathematically simplest case; specifically : characterized by having all ] variables equal to zero ] 3 : SPECIFIC 4 ] - triv·i·al·ist /-&-list/ noun ] - triv·i·al·ly /-&-lE/ adverb Should I believe you, or the dictionary? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Wed Jan 27 15:08:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA27088 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:08:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA27083 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:08:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA07674; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:08:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA24350; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:08:22 -0700 Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:08:22 -0700 Message-Id: <199901272308.QAA24350@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199901272250.PAA28087@usr05.primenet.com> References: <199901271953.MAA22848@mt.sri.com> <199901272250.PAA28087@usr05.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > And I think this "shim" is already well documented in the KLD for > > > the Solaris ABI module. Yes, I don't know for sure if the Solaris > > > JDK code will run under the ABI, but Oracle does, and so, apparently, > > > does Lotus Notes. > > > > We're talking two different problems here. One is a 'completely' > > separate SVR4 emulation model, and the other is hybrid of FreeBSD > > binaries and SVR4 (or other) shared libraries. > > If Sun can do it in user space for SunOS 4.1.3 binaries, then Nate can > do it in user space for Solaris x86 binaries on FreeBSD. Actually, any 'significant' SunOS binary does *NOT* work on Solaris. (And I'm speaking from experience.) > The Motif code does not have a large investment in the architecture > of the OS on which it is run -- it is portable code. Actually no. Many of my X programs would not run when I switched to Solaris, and few of them had 'OS' dependant portions of code. fvwm is one that comes to mind. > > > I know we all have a bias that the stuff we are doing is harder than > > > the stuff anyone else is doing, but frankly I can't see that the JDK > > > would be any more dependent than the other foreign binaries. > > > > Never said it was hard, but that it's alot of stuff to deal with since > > it requires alot of OS hooks, unlike most 'foreign binaries'. (Although > > I would guess that Oracle would be in the same class because it tries to > > do lots of 'performance' gaining calls. > > Precisely why I cited the Oracle success, which you can independently > verify without having to "stoop" to granting me any credibility > whatsoever, since you are loathe to do so. No, I'm not willing to let you change the definition of success. Being able to run a completely native Oracle application in SVR4 emulation is *NOT* the same problem as running a FreeBSD binary that links agains the Oracle libraries. They are entirely different problems, with some slight overlap. Stick to the issue you raised. > The part that's linked with the Solaris SHIM library. E.g.: What SHIM library? You're changing the the topic again. > > Basically, what you're trying to do is put a small-block Chevy engine in > > a BMW. Yes, it can be done, but it's not easy and the resulting car is > > probably worse than the original Chevy and the BMW in terms of > > performance and reliability. > > No, that's not what I'm trying to do. Sure you are. Motif/Solaris library == small-block Chevy. FreeBSD == BMW. They weren't designed to go together. Nate > > Terry, you have *yet* to complete a project in FreeBSD/NetBSD/etc.. , > > Actually, I have a number of projects that have been completed and > integrated into both systems. > > LKM's were mine. And they weren't finished. And, I've got your email to prove it. > The FreeBSD kern/init_main.c and linker set based SYSINIT code is > mine. Booted your FreeBSD box lately? And they weren't finished. I've got email from you to prove it. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Wed Jan 27 19:30:18 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA29560 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:30:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hyperreal.org (taz.hyperreal.org [209.133.83.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA29550 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:30:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@hyperreal.org) Received: (qmail 16066 invoked by uid 24); 28 Jan 1999 03:30:14 -0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990127192614.03601640@hyperreal.org> X-Sender: brian@hyperreal.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:29:57 -0800 To: java@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brian Behlendorf Subject: list focus question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Is this list specific to discussions about the JDK port, or can more general Java-on-FreeBSD questions be posed? E.g., I was wondering what peoples' experiences were on 3.x-stable with 1) the Blackdown port of the Sun JVM under linux emulation 2) Jikes 3) Electric Fire (http://www.mozilla.org/projects/ef/) If there is a better place for these questions, though, please let me know. Brian --=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-- History is made at night; brian@hyperreal.org character is what you are in the dark. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Wed Jan 27 20:47:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA09904 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:47:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from WEBBSD1.turnaround.com.au (webbsd1.turnaround.com.au [203.39.138.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA09889 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:47:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from J_Shevland@TurnAround.com.au) Received: from TurnAround.com.au (dialin109.hbt.tassie.net.au [203.57.210.109]) by WEBBSD1.turnaround.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA05203; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 15:48:38 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from J_Shevland@TurnAround.com.au) Message-ID: <36AFE959.BBD80069@TurnAround.com.au> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 15:36:41 +1100 From: Joe Shevland Organization: Turnaround Solutions Pty. Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Behlendorf CC: java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: list focus question References: <4.1.19990127192614.03601640@hyperreal.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brian Behlendorf wrote: > Is this list specific to discussions about the JDK port, or can more > general Java-on-FreeBSD questions be posed? Unsure, but there's a section on the various lists' charters on www.freebsd.org. > > E.g., I was wondering what peoples' experiences were on 3.x-stable with > > 1) the Blackdown port of the Sun JVM under linux emulation > 2) Jikes Jikes is blindingly fast in comparison to most/all other Java compilers. But thats it; Jikes is only a compiler and not a JVM in its entirety. > > 3) Electric Fire (http://www.mozilla.org/projects/ef/) Never heard of it but will have a squiz for my own interest. > > If there is a better place for these questions, though, please let me know. > > Brian Regards, Joe. > > > --=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-- > History is made at night; brian@hyperreal.org > character is what you are in the dark. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Wed Jan 27 21:32:40 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA14898 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 21:32:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA14892 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 21:32:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA10655; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:32:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA26274; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:32:37 -0700 Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:32:37 -0700 Message-Id: <199901280532.WAA26274@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Brian Behlendorf Cc: java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: list focus question In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990127192614.03601640@hyperreal.org> References: <4.1.19990127192614.03601640@hyperreal.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Is this list specific to discussions about the JDK port, or can more > general Java-on-FreeBSD questions be posed? Generic questions. > E.g., I was wondering what peoples' experiences were on 3.x-stable with > > 1) the Blackdown port of the Sun JVM under linux emulation No idea. > 2) Jikes Great. I use it for Real (tm) paying work now in all of my projects. > 3) Electric Fire (http://www.mozilla.org/projects/ef/) No idea. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Thu Jan 28 00:21:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA06293 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:21:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from inet-tsb.toshiba.co.jp (inet-tsb.toshiba.co.jp [202.33.96.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA06288 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:21:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hashi@csl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp) Received: from tis2.tis.toshiba.co.jp by inet-tsb.toshiba.co.jp (8.8.8/3.3W9-04/12/95) id RAA27609; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 17:19:00 +0900 (JST) Received: from mx.toshiba.co.jp by tis2.tis.toshiba.co.jp (8.8.4+2.7Wbeta4/3.3W9-95082317) id RAA16323; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 17:19:00 +0900 (JST) Received: from tis10.tis.toshiba.co.jp by toshiba.co.jp (8.7.1+2.6Wbeta4/3.3W9-TOSHIBA-GLOBAL SERVER) id RAA17752; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 17:18:59 +0900 (JST) Received: from mailhost.csl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp ([133.196.71.13]) by tis10.tis.toshiba.co.jp (5.67+1.6W/6.4J.6-MHS-CNTML-R1) id AA17178; Thu, 28 Jan 99 17:18:58 JST Received: from hakobe.csl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp (swg-dcl-181.csl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp [133.196.75.181]) by mailhost.csl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id RAA18097; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 17:18:58 +0900 (JST) From: hashi@csl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp (Mikio Hashimoto) Message-Id: <199901280818.RAA18097@mailhost.csl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 17:18:13 +0900 (JST) X-Mailer: cmail [version 2.59.11] To: freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: signal handling in FreeBSD Java Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dear freebsd-java reflector members I'd like to ask a question about signal handling in freebsd JDK. I'm developing a program that uses JNI and asynchronous IO. The program handles asynchronous input from a special socket interface through JNI, as shown in figure below. On arriving an asynchronous input, a signal SIGUSR1 is issued from the socket interface to the java process, then a preregistered signal handler of the java process is called. The handler invokes particular input method in user java library. User Java Library(with awt) ------------------------------------------- freebsd-jdk 1.1.7 Java VM +-------------------------------- | Native Method (written in C ) -----------+--------------------------------- IO,etc | special socket I/F for IEEE 1394 Free BSD kernel This program well worked for simple test program without awt widget library. But once GUI program with awt applied to the program, the java process frequently crashes or hangs up. Sometimes following messages can be seen. 1) X11TransSocketINETConnect: Can't connect errno=4 2) Warning: select failed I guess the message 1) tells that some signals(probably my socket signal) disrupted socket operation in X windows system. The error number four corresponds to the EINTR error. Is it right? As for second message, actually I use select system call for asynchronous input handling. Above explanation is very simplified one. I'm afraid that using select() system call in native method disrupts java process on working for normal class loading or networking. Does anyone have suggestion about my problem? Best Regards. -------- Mikio Hashimoto Laboratory I, Communication and Information Laboratories, Toshiba R&D Center fax +81-44-520-1806 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Thu Jan 28 08:21:41 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA06668 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:21:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA06634 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:21:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA15694; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:21:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA29588; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:21:27 -0700 Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:21:27 -0700 Message-Id: <199901281621.JAA29588@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: hashi@csl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp (Mikio Hashimoto) Cc: freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: signal handling in FreeBSD Java In-Reply-To: <199901280818.RAA18097@mailhost.csl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp> References: <199901280818.RAA18097@mailhost.csl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I'm developing a program that uses JNI and asynchronous IO. The > program handles asynchronous input from a special socket interface > through JNI, as shown in figure below. > On arriving an asynchronous input, a signal SIGUSR1 is issued from > the socket interface to the java process, then a preregistered signal > handler of the java process is called. I'm not sure if this is documented, but SIGUSR1 is not allowed in JNI programs as it's the signal used internally in the VM to signal 'thread interrupt'. > User Java Library(with awt) > ------------------------------------------- > freebsd-jdk 1.1.7 > > Java VM +-------------------------------- > | Native Method (written in C ) > -----------+--------------------------------- > IO,etc | special socket I/F for IEEE 1394 > Free BSD kernel > > This program well worked for simple test program without awt widget > library. But once GUI program with awt applied to the program, the > java process frequently crashes or hangs up. Sometimes following > messages can be seen. > > 1) X11TransSocketINETConnect: Can't connect errno=4 > 2) Warning: select failed > > I guess the message 1) tells that some signals(probably my socket > signal) disrupted socket operation in X windows system. The error > number four corresponds to the EINTR error. Is it right? See above. Try using SIGUSR2 and see if things work better. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Thu Jan 28 13:01:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA14800 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:01:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA14789 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:01:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA10827; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:01:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd010667; Thu Jan 28 14:01:14 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA18701; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:01:02 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199901282101.OAA18701@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: TowerJ for FreeBSD To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 21:01:02 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, nate@mt.sri.com, java@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199901272308.QAA24350@mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Jan 27, 99 04:08:22 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > > > And I think this "shim" is already well documented in the KLD for > Actually no. Many of my X programs would not run when I switched to > Solaris, and few of them had 'OS' dependant portions of code. I'm betting this was prior to 2.4, before they implemented the system call support for select and other calls that couldn't be masked by dynamic linkage in static binaries. > No, I'm not willing to let you change the definition of success. Being > able to run a completely native Oracle application in SVR4 emulation is > *NOT* the same problem as running a FreeBSD binary that links agains the > Oracle libraries. They are entirely different problems, with some > slight overlap. > > Stick to the issue you raised. You are actually the one who raised the issue. I wouldn't have posted at all about it, but there were two problems: 1) You made a counter-claim without supporting evidence. 2) You basically swatted down someone who was willing to work on the problem, instead of fretting about its size. #1 I could have ignored. > > The part that's linked with the Solaris SHIM library. E.g.: > > What SHIM library? You're changing the the topic again. ??? No, I'm not. It's an implemetnation detail of linking against foreign libraries. > > LKM's were mine. > > And they weren't finished. And, I've got your email to prove it. They were alpha quality. There is a big difference between an alpha that works and an unfinished frob that doesn't. > > The FreeBSD kern/init_main.c and linker set based SYSINIT code is > > mine. Booted your FreeBSD box lately? > > And they weren't finished. I've got email from you to prove it. Again, alpha quality stuff. In both cases, the code had to get committed before it could mature successfully. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Thu Jan 28 20:32:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA16213 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 20:32:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp.usit.net (transfer.usit.net [208.10.171.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA16187 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 20:32:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hgrabows@usit.net) Received: from usit.net (IP205241209064.MYIP.NET [205.241.209.64]) by smtp.usit.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id XAA10255 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 23:32:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36B139C1.A9D41A0A@usit.net> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 23:32:01 -0500 From: "Henry C. Grabowski III" Reply-To: hgrabows@usit.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Changing max stack size Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm trying to change the maximum stack size before I run a program. There is a self-calling method in one of my routines and it can get quite deep. Under windows, using one of Sun's JDK1.1 compilers (not sure which one exactly), I have to increase the size of the Java stack size. Under windows I do the following to run the program "unheatedgui": java -oss10MB unheatedgui Under FreeBSD the command line argument for -oss, -ss and -mx don't work with this format. The only way I've been able to get the program to even execute is to do the following: java unheatedgui -oss128MB -ss128MB -mx256MB This was the last time I ran it. I don't see how it is possible for it to actually reach these values so I'm assuming it treats the three options as command line arguments for "unheatedgui" and not for "java". If you could shed some light on how to use these options, i would appriciate it. Thank you, Hank To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Thu Jan 28 22:34:42 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA29660 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 22:34:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from WEBBSD1.turnaround.com.au (webbsd1.turnaround.com.au [203.39.138.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA29655 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 22:34:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from J_Shevland@TurnAround.com.au) Received: from tasshev (dhcp110.turnaround.com.au [192.168.1.110] (may be forged)) by WEBBSD1.turnaround.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA12371; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:35:43 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from J_Shevland@TurnAround.com.au) Reply-To: From: "Joe Shevland" To: , Subject: RE: Changing max stack size Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:30:39 +1100 Message-ID: <003801be4b50$e31e6740$6e01a8c0@tasshev.turnaround.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <36B139C1.A9D41A0A@usit.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG > [mailto:owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Henry C. Grabowski > III > Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 3:32 PM > To: freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Changing max stack size > > > I'm trying to change the maximum stack size before I run a program. > There is a self-calling method in one of my routines and it can get > quite deep. Under windows, using one of Sun's JDK1.1 compilers (not > sure which one exactly), I have to increase the size of the Java stack > size. Under windows I do the following to run the program > "unheatedgui": > > java -oss10MB unheatedgui > > Under FreeBSD the command line argument for -oss, -ss and -mx don't work > with this format. The only way I've been able to get the program to > even execute is to do the following: > > java unheatedgui -oss128MB -ss128MB -mx256MB > > This was the last time I ran it. I don't see how it is possible for it > to actually reach these values so I'm assuming it treats the three > options as command line arguments for "unheatedgui" and not for "java". You're correct there. These arguments will become the String[] object in the main method. Sorry I can't help with why the previous command line arguments wouldn't work though. I've rarely used them, and that was on a WinGames machine. But I thought it was specified in kb (try removing the MB?), and I'd also put a space after 'em. -- Joe Shevland Principal Consultant Turnaround Solutions Pty. Ltd. Ph: +61-03-6224-9146 * Fax: +61-03-6223-2556 > If you could shed some light on how to use these options, i would > appriciate it. > > Thank you, > Hank > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Fri Jan 29 06:24:56 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA20995 for freebsd-java-outgoing; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 06:24:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from inet-tsb.toshiba.co.jp (inet-tsb.toshiba.co.jp [202.33.96.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA20990 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 06:24:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hashi@csl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp) Received: from tis2.tis.toshiba.co.jp by inet-tsb.toshiba.co.jp (8.8.8/3.3W9-04/12/95) id XAA03391; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 23:24:49 +0900 (JST) Received: from mx.toshiba.co.jp by tis2.tis.toshiba.co.jp (8.8.4+2.7Wbeta4/3.3W9-95082317) id XAA22354; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 23:24:48 +0900 (JST) Received: from tis10.tis.toshiba.co.jp by toshiba.co.jp (8.7.1+2.6Wbeta4/3.3W9-TOSHIBA-GLOBAL SERVER) id XAA10439; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 23:24:48 +0900 (JST) Received: from mailhost.csl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp ([133.196.71.13]) by tis10.tis.toshiba.co.jp (5.67+1.6W/6.4J.6-MHS-CNTML-R1) id AA07486; Fri, 29 Jan 99 23:24:47 JST Received: from susuki.csl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp (susuki.csl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp [133.196.75.40]) by mailhost.csl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id XAA27358; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 23:24:46 +0900 (JST) From: hashi@csl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp (Mikio Hashimoto) Message-Id: <199901291424.XAA27358@mailhost.csl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp> Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 23:24:46 +0900 (JST) X-Mailer: cmail [version 2.59.11] References: <199901280818.RAA18097@mailhost.csl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp> <199901281621.JAA29588@mt.sri.com> To: nate@mt.sri.com, freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: hashi@csl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp In-Reply-To: Nate Williams's message of "Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:21:27 -0700" <199901281621.JAA29588@mt.sri.com> Subject: Re: signal handling in FreeBSD Java Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I'm not sure if this is documented, but SIGUSR1 is not allowed in JNI > programs as it's the signal used internally in the VM to signal 'thread > interrupt'. > See above. Try using SIGUSR2 and see if things work better. Nate, Thank you for useful information. I'll try it. And I'd like to know further detail for signal handling in the VM. If someone knows the related document, please tell me the location. Best Regards -------- Mikio Hashimoto Laboratory I, Communication and Information Laboratories, Toshiba R&D Center To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message