From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 16 6:30:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4510C37B654 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 06:30:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id PAA28056 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 15:30:44 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA83809 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 13:39:42 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources Date: 16 Apr 2000 13:39:42 +0200 Message-ID: <8dc8pu$2hqj$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> References: <200004150441.VAA23755@freefall.freebsd.org> <8dap2t$1ome$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <20000416133021.P3179@welearn.com.au> <38F951D1.8062FDF2@gorean.org> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Since I was the one to bring this discussion to -chat... Doug Barton wrote: > Because that's what -arch is for. Big ticket decisions that affect the > architecture of the base system. Whether to replace csh with tcsh is hardly a big architectural decision. > [...] In any case, -chat is certainly NOT the place for this kind > of discussion. -arch is certainly not the place for religious wars. That thread in its pointless entirety which included add-nauseum repetition of arguments and clueless posturing (I'm thinking specifically of Rodney here who could at least have checked tcsh's man page before pontificating about incompatibilities) has devalued -arch to the point where it's just another version of -current and -hackers. > Both because -chat is highly optional, and therefore decision > makers could easily miss it, and because -chat's charter specifies, > "Non-technical items." As far as I can tell, the decision already has been made. tcsh *has* been imported into the base system, csh *has* been made available as a port. Only the removal of csh from the base system and the actual switch hasn't been performed yet. Also, my sentiment why I don't like tcsh's inclusion, and which was echoed here, is not a technical one. Sue's comment was right on target. It's quite clear that David O'Brien pushed for the inclusion of his personal favorite. BTW, I'm unclear as to -arch's status. Is it moderated, committers only, or generally open? -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 16 6:30:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D40337B9C1 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 06:30:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id PAA28058 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 15:30:47 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA84601 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 14:03:35 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources Date: 16 Apr 2000 14:03:34 +0200 Message-ID: <8dca6m$2ijc$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> References: <8dap2t$1ome$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Annelise Anderson wrote: > So take it out and put bash in instead, and make bash the > default user shell. bash's license (GPL) makes it exceedingly unattractive for inclusion into the base system as long as there are alternatives. Although Linux converts tend to ask for bash, I'm under the impression that most of them use only a minute fraction of bash's features and in fact aren't particular aware of the possibilities bash offers--and even more so a current version of bash would offer rather than the ancient 1.14.7 still shipped with many Linux distributions. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 16 7:54: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75F1837B6BA for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 07:54:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA33352; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 16:54:00 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 16:54:00 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200004161454.QAA33352@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: <8dcfap$1ind$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> Organization: Administration TU Clausthal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.4-19991219-STABLE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In list.freebsd-chat Christian Weisgerber wrote: > [...] > BTW, I'm unclear as to -arch's status. Is it moderated, committers > only, or generally open? I have posted there, so it's open for everyone and his dog, obviously. ;-) Regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18/61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) "In jedem Stück Kohle wartet ein Diamant auf seine Geburt" (Terry Pratchett) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 16 7:59:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B410A37B53B for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 07:59:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (doug@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA41679; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 07:59:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <38F9D554.45BAA543@gorean.org> Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 07:59:32 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT-0409 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources References: <200004150441.VAA23755@freefall.freebsd.org> <8dap2t$1ome$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <20000416133021.P3179@welearn.com.au> <38F951D1.8062FDF2@gorean.org> <8dc8pu$2hqj$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Christian Weisgerber wrote: > > Since I was the one to bring this discussion to -chat... > > Doug Barton wrote: > > > Because that's what -arch is for. Big ticket decisions that affect the > > architecture of the base system. > > Whether to replace csh with tcsh is hardly a big architectural > decision. I won't argue the semantics of that, but I will say that the -arch list was created for exactly these kinds of topics, and the discussion there was well conducted, and within the charter for that list. > > [...] In any case, -chat is certainly NOT the place for this kind > > of discussion. > > -arch is certainly not the place for religious wars. That thread > in its pointless entirety which included add-nauseum repetition of > arguments and clueless posturing (I'm thinking specifically of > Rodney here who could at least have checked tcsh's man page before > pontificating about incompatibilities) has devalued -arch to the > point where it's just another version of -current and -hackers. ... which is not to say that things couldn't have gone better, but shells _are_ a religious topic, and it's impossible to conduct technical discussions of their relative merits without some of what you describe (unfortunately). On the whole however, the discussion was very reasonable, focused on the merits, and reached as decisive a conclusion as was every likely to arise. > Sue's comment was right on target. It's quite clear that David > O'Brien pushed for the inclusion of his personal favorite. That was not clear at all. A substantial part of David's argument was that if we are going to have a csh in the system (this is BSD, so we are), and if we are going to have an old, stale version of tcsh as our csh (which we did) it makes much more sense to import the new, well maintained and feature full version of tcsh. (I'm not speaking for David of course...) As I said previously, further conversation of this sort should happen on -arch, as it is currently for anyone interested. > BTW, I'm unclear as to -arch's status. Is it moderated, committers > only, or generally open? It's open, subject to moderation if things start to get stupid. Doug -- Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. -- W. Somerset Maugham To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 16 8: 3:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.surf1.de (mail.Surf1.de [194.25.165.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4C5837B781 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 08:03:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@cichlids.com) Received: from cichlids.com (pC19F549D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [193.159.84.157]) by mail.surf1.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA14351 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 16:02:53 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A993AC2C for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 17:06:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from alex@localhost) by cichlids.cichlids.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA00856 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 17:03:21 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from alex) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 17:03:21 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources Message-ID: <20000416170321.A844@cichlids.cichlids.com> References: <8dcfap$1ind$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> <200004161454.QAA33352@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200004161454.QAA33352@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de>; from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de on Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 04:54:00PM +0200 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Oliver Fromme (olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de): > I have posted there, so it's open for everyone and his dog, > obviously. ;-) Can you introduce me to your dog, please? I'd like to see a dog that can post to -arch :) Alex -- I need a new ~/.sig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 16 8:12:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from chai.torrentnet.com (chai.torrentnet.com [198.78.51.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D8D637B9E6 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 08:12:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bakul@torrentnet.com) Received: from chai.torrentnet.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chai.torrentnet.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA07069; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 11:12:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200004161512.LAA07069@chai.torrentnet.com> To: Sue Blake Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 16 Apr 2000 13:30:22 +1000." <20000416133021.P3179@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 11:12:19 -0400 From: Bakul Shah Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > This looks like a poorly thought out hasty move based on some old > timers' rigid preferences rather than on appropriateness as a base for > the greatest range of user types. It might look like that to others, too. That would be the *new* oldtimers. Us _old_ oldtimers prefer /bin/sh as root's shell, thank you very much! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 16 10:43:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36ADF37B6C0 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 10:43:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-3.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.42]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA17110; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:43:41 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:43:41 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: Alexander Langer Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources In-Reply-To: <20000416170321.A844@cichlids.cichlids.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 16 Apr 2000, Alexander Langer wrote: > Thus spake Oliver Fromme (olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de): > > > I have posted there, so it's open for everyone and his dog, > > obviously. ;-) > > Can you introduce me to your dog, please? > I'd like to see a dog that can post to -arch :) > Has Satoshi's hamster ever posted to -arch? He has to other lists. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 16 11:41: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0654B37BA2B for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 11:40:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id UAA19693 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 20:40:51 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA95673 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 19:23:18 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources Date: 16 Apr 2000 19:23:17 +0200 Message-ID: <8dcsu5$2tdb$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> References: <8dcfap$1ind$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> <200004161454.QAA33352@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> <20000416170321.A844@cichlids.cichlids.com> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Alexander Langer wrote: > Can you introduce me to your dog, please? > I'd like to see a dog that can post to -arch :) Well, if Satoshi's hamster can post to -ports... -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 16 16: 2:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53C7D37B625 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 16:02:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA49115; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 19:01:07 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 19:01:06 -0400 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: David Kelly Cc: Sue Blake , Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources Message-ID: <20000416190106.A48499@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Reply-To: cjclark@home.com References: <200004160437.XAA32648@nospam.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200004160437.XAA32648@nospam.hiwaay.net>; from dkelly@hiwaay.net on Sat, Apr 15, 2000 at 11:37:41PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Apr 15, 2000 at 11:37:41PM -0500, David Kelly wrote: > Sue Blake writes: > > Just because we all agree that csh is bad, doesn't mean that any > > We don't all agree that csh is bad. At the command line csh is well > worth having for its history mechanism. While BSD sh has history, I've > not seen the default sh on SGI or Sun systems with same features. Actually, the defeault 'sh' on SGI systems is now a Korn shell, sh(1) sh(1) NAME sh, rsh, ksh, rksh - a standard/restricted command and programming language SYNOPSIS sh [ -abCefhikmnprstuvx ] [ -o option ] ... [ -c string ] [ arg ... ] /usr/lib/rsh [ -abCefhikmnprstuvx ] [ -o option ] ... [ -c string ] [ arg ... ] DESCRIPTION Note: As of IRIX 6.4, sh is the Korn shell rather than the Bourne shell. See bsh(1) for the Bourne Shell description. See the COMPATIBILITY ISSUES section below for more detail. . . . -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 16 16: 7: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.surf1.de (mail.Surf1.de [194.25.165.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA66837B69F for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 16:06:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@cichlids.com) Received: from cichlids.com (pC19F548A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [193.159.84.138]) by mail.surf1.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA18997; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 00:06:20 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EBC7AC2C; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:10:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from alex@localhost) by cichlids.cichlids.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA01915; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:06:51 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from alex) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:06:51 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: David Scheidt Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources Message-ID: <20000417010651.A860@cichlids.cichlids.com> References: <20000416170321.A844@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from dscheidt@enteract.com on Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 12:43:41PM -0500 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake David Scheidt (dscheidt@enteract.com): > > I'd like to see a dog that can post to -arch :) > Has Satoshi's hamster ever posted to -arch? He has to other lists. Don't know, but posting hamsters are nothing special, but postings dogs are. That's why I ask :) Alex -- I need a new ~/.sig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 16 18:43:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A375037B7E8 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 18:43:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (doconnor@cain [203.38.152.97]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA28263; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:12:08 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:12:08 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Annelise Anderson Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Christian Weisgerber Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 15-Apr-00 Annelise Anderson wrote: > > >From a shell advocacy point of view, importing tcsh was the very > > worst thing that could happen. > Agreed. So take it out and put bash in instead, and make bash the > default user shell. It's the default user shell in ...yeah, linux, > but also bsd/os 4.0. And we like all BSDs, right? Except that bash != sh.. I have seen a LOT of Linux people write scripts which use /bin/sh which don't work on our /bin/sh.. --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 16 19:46:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FE3937B96A for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 19:46:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id MAA80872 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 12:16:06 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 12:16:06 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: [H-CHAT] FW: [SLUG] Fwd: Fw: Microsoft slogan] (fwd) Message-ID: <20000417121606.B80336@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ----- Forwarded message from Martin Pool ----- > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:08:07 +1000 > From: Anthony Ison > Reply-To: chat@lists.humbug.org.au > To: "'chat@lists.humbug.org.au'" > Subject: [H-CHAT] FW: [SLUG] Fwd: Fw: Microsoft slogan] > > [ Humbug *Chat* list. ] > > > In a landmark decision, the Australian Commercial Practices Court > today ruled that Toyota is no longer allowed to run its advertising > campaign based on the word "Bugger". Explained Court spokesman Loof > Lirpa, "Some time ago Microsoft took out an injunction against the > use of the word 'Bugger' in Toyota's ad. It was argued that 'Bugger' > had been associated with Windows far longer and far more deeply than > with Toyota's utes." > > Lirpa went on to suggest that every Windows user in the world uses > the word at least once a day as a direct result of using > Windows. "No other product has ever achieved that degree of market > recognition and for Toyota to muscle in on it was clearly a breach > of commercial etiquette and, ipso facto, copyright." > > Microsoft is now planning a media-wide campaign using their > catch-word. A copy that has been leaked to us shows several familiar > faces:- > > Steven King is shown saving the last page of his new 800 page > blockbuster in Word and then re-opening it to find that it has been > reduced to three smiley faces and half a dozen Japanese > characters. He smiles wanly at the camera and says "......" > > Kerry Packer is shown shaking his head knowingly and muttering > "....." when he discovers that the spreadsheet on which he based > his latest $4 billion takeover has suffered from the notorious Excel > "four sevens are thirty six" feature and that the Ayer's Rock Hot > Pie Company is somewhat overvalued. > > The head of the CIA (with his faced pixillated) is shown shouting > "....." on finding that Outlook has just e-mailed the entire > contents of his hard drive to the head of the KGB. She, in turn, > says "byugyah" when the file is found to be in last year's Access > format. > > A spokesthing for Microsoft commented, "This is a logical move for > the company that used "You make a grown man cry" and "The damned and > accursed are convicted to the flames of Hell" as advertising slogans > for its software. We anticipate establishing the slogan in the > marketplace by including a t-shirt printed with "Bugger Microsoft" > in every box of our software." > > - > * This is list (humbug) chat handled by majordomo@lists.humbug.org.au . > * Postings to this list are only accepted from subscribers of lists > * 'chat' or 'chat-post'. > ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 17 1:55:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05C4C37BB43 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:55:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from 0v0@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from 0v0@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA74277; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:55:29 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from 0v0) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:55:27 +1000 From: Nelson Rosella <0v0@welearn.com.au> To: Alexander Langer Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources Message-ID: <20000417185525.B74228@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Alexander Langer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <8dcfap$1ind$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> <200004161454.QAA33352@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> <20000416170321.A844@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <20000416170321.A844@cichlids.cichlids.com>; from Alexander Langer on Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 05:03:21PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 05:03:21PM +0200, Alexander Langer wrote: > Thus spake Oliver Fromme (olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de): > > > I have posted there, so it's open for everyone and his dog, > > obviously. ;-) > > Can you introduce me to your dog, please? > I'd like to see a dog that can post to -arch :) So would I! -- \ / \ / \ / \ \\|// / \ \|/ / Born to fly! \ / \ / * * V To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 17 3: 1:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mppsystems.com (mppsystems.com [208.210.148.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D70437B83D; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 03:01:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mpp@mppsystems.com) Received: (from mpp@localhost) by mppsystems.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA83817; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 05:01:05 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from mpp) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 05:01:05 -0500 From: Mike Pritchard To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: Kris Kennaway , chat@FreeBSD.org, "Daniel O'Connor" , Anatoly Vorobey , Warner Losh Subject: Re: PC Keyboard Scancodes Message-ID: <20000417050105.A83612@mppsystems.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from darius@dons.net.au on Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 11:34:38AM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 11:34:38AM +0930, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > > On 16-Apr-00 Kris Kennaway wrote: > > On Sat, 15 Apr 2000, Mike Pritchard wrote: > >> secure e-commerce -32 50 -32 -78 > > WTF does a "Secure E-Commerce" key do?? > > Sell more keyboards. Heh. I've changed the key so that it launches something else, but I think by default it was setup to connect to some compaq/yahoo/netscape/whatever "secure shopping" site. E.g. it lauches your default browser and goes to this "secure shopping" site. The button is labeled with a checkmark. As to someone asking about the keycodes, it looks like the "sleep" button generates the same code as the microsoft keyboard, so maybe that is somewhat "official". So at least for that one, we might want to see if Linux/the other *BSDs have definied anything for that and stick with it. Other than that, it would be nice if I could get the the only "extra" buttons I really use (the CD/speaker buttons. E.g. play/stop/pause cd and vol+/-/mute) to do something under FreeBSD. You can pretty much think of all of these extra buttons as fancy programable function keys. I think they advertise these extra buttons as "one touch internet/e-mail/blah blah blah". I think the newer version of these keyboards have 6 or 8 of these special application keys (not including the CD/sound stuff). It is also the first keyboard I've ever broken in my life just due to using it (we won't talk about the one I dropped down a couple of flights of stairs). One half of the space bar doesn't work because some chunk of plastic broke off and if you hit the space bar on that side, it doesn't work. I've just been too lazy to pull it out and replace it with one of the other 3 or 4 keyboards I have hooked up to other machines or laying around, since it doesn't seem to affect me too much. But some of my friends seem to hit the space bar with the opposite thumb that I do and they have a heck of a time with it :-). And I'm not going to pay Compaq any money for a "real" replacement. -Mike -- Mike Pritchard mpp@FreeBSD.org or mpp@mppsystems.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 17 8: 7:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1253C37B908 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 08:07:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) for chat@freebsd.org id 12hD7K-000CnL-00; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 16:07:14 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA27540 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 16:07:13 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 16:07:13 +0100 From: J McKitrick To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: M$ anti-trust case Message-ID: <20000417160713.B27040@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At the risk of rehashing old material, i got into a debate with my dad over this case. He's asking me how it has hurt him to buy software that does what he wants for as cheap as he has gotten it. He claims that if there were anything out there better, it could become popular on the merits of being better. He also claims that if he found something that worked better than M$ office, he would buy it. I say he would never see such a product, because there is no developer who wants to try to compete with a free product, or one that comes with the computer tightly bound to the OS. He also claims that since AOL and other ISP's often give a free copy of netscape to complement the free copy of IE, the consumer gets more for their money, and netscape is still alive anyway. Any thoughts? jm -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathon McKitrick -- jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org To Microsoft: "Your tyranny I was part of, is now cracking on every side. Now your own life is in danger. Your Empire is on fire." Front 242 ------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 17 8:22:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 774BB37B7EA for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 08:22:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 19533 invoked from network); 17 Apr 2000 15:22:58 -0000 Received: from du25.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.25) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 17 Apr 2000 15:22:58 -0000 Message-ID: <38FB2C27.EC0595A7@mail.ptd.net> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:22:15 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: M$ anti-trust case References: <20000417160713.B27040@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org J McKitrick wrote: > > At the risk of rehashing old material, i got into a debate with my > dad over this case. He's asking me how it has hurt him to buy > software that does what he wants for as cheap as he has gotten it. He's been hurt because he could have gotten something better and cheaper if MS had not engaged in illegal anti-competitive practices. At least that's the theory. > He claims that if there were anything out there better, it could > become popular on the merits of being better. It's hard to become popular when MS makes you an offer you can't refuse. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 17 8:42:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E82137B91F for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 08:42:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r25.bfm.org [216.127.220.121]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 10:42:52 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000417104107.0088ee50@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 10:41:07 -0500 To: J McKitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: M$ anti-trust case In-Reply-To: <20000417160713.B27040@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 16:07 17-04-2000 +0100, J McKitrick wrote: >At the risk of rehashing old material, i got into a debate with my dad over >this case. He's asking me how it has hurt him to buy software that does >what he wants for as cheap as he has gotten it. It has hurt him in ways he does not realize. Your point about no developer wanting to compete is the key. How many times have I thought how I could do something better than what's out there, but why should I spend my own time and energy doing it when I know I'd be eaten alive by the sharks. It is so damn hard for the small guy to do anything in the software industry anymore! I used to be an extremely active software developer, introduced many products that spread around the world very fast, and that was before the Internet became so popular. For example, one day I posted a new program on a BBS in Pittsburgh, and the very next day I received Fidonet email about it from someone in Australia. But I never made any money doing that. In fact, I lost a lot of money that way. So, some ten years ago or so, I swore I'd never release any more of my software. I felt so abused. It was not until about two years ago, when I got into FreeBSD, that I started releasing software again, but this time did not even try to make money on it... I have finally released a project very recently that I am hoping people will pay for (it's for Windows, not for FreeBSD, though). I did that for the first time after so many years. I am trying some new strategies. The software is fully functional, but does a lot more for people who register. It's been about ten days now: People are downloading it like hotcakes (especially right now after I somehow managed to become the very first thing that comes up on the screen when AOL users search for Photoshop plug-ins). We'll see if anyone ever decides to pay for it though. But the fact remains the same: If no one ever pays (or few do), I will stop working on it once again. If I were just selling it through retail markets, people would buy it, I am sure of it. But it is virtually impossible for a small guy to penetrate retail markets, no thanks to M$. So, yes, your dad *is* losing. Even if my software is probably not something your dad would be interested in (highly specialized Photoshop plug-ins aimed at professional photographers), I am sure I am not the only developer who has felt the way like I did for so many years (i.e., why even bother developing good quality software). And it is not only about financial monopoly. It is about the new kind of computer user M$ has created: People who do not want power software. People who do not want quality. They are used to mediocrity. They are *afraid* of power and quality. They have been treated like dummies for so long they *believe* they are dummies. After all, why doesn't the whole world just dump Windows and switch to FreeBSD? The "price" is certainly competitive. They have been duped into believing they could never handle something like FreeBSD. Cheers, Adam ----------------------------------------------------------- "I think, therefore I am." - Seventeenth Century Philosophy "I publish what I think, therefore I have." - Twenty-First Century Action Details at http://www.OnlinePublisher.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 17 10:23: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1E6C37BB43 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 10:22:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 10:22:56 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "G. Adam Stanislav" , "J McKitrick" , Subject: RE: M$ anti-trust case Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 10:22:56 -0700 Message-ID: <001201bfa891$92066480$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000417104107.0088ee50@mail85.pair.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It has hurt him in ways he does not realize. Your point about no developer > wanting to compete is the key. How many times have I thought how > I could do > something better than what's out there, but why should I spend my own time > and energy doing it when I know I'd be eaten alive by the sharks. > It is so damn hard for the small guy to do anything in the software > industry anymore! I used to be an extremely active software developer, > introduced many products that spread around the world very fast, and that > was before the Internet became so popular. For example, one day I posted a > new program on a BBS in Pittsburgh, and the very next day I received > Fidonet email about it from someone in Australia. So now Netscape and Sun are the small guys?!?!?! The Microsoft anti-trust case is not about big versus small. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 17 10:39:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77FA537B9C9 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 10:39:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12hFUH-000IWa-00; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:39:05 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA28433; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:39:05 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:39:05 +0100 From: J McKitrick To: David Schwartz Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: M$ anti-trust case Message-ID: <20000417183905.D27040@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20000417104107.0088ee50@mail85.pair.com> <001201bfa891$92066480$021d85d1@youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <001201bfa891$92066480$021d85d1@youwant.to>; from davids@webmaster.com on Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 10:22:56AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 10:22:56AM -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > So now Netscape and Sun are the small guys?!?!?! The Microsoft anti-trust > case is not about big versus small. Unfortunately, though the judge ruled M$ broke the law, many are arguing that M$ really hasn't hurt anyone but developers, and has helped consumers. Unfortunately, it appears that is the case. jm -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathon McKitrick -- jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org To Microsoft: "Your tyranny I was part of, is now cracking on every side. Now your own life is in danger. Your Empire is on fire." Front 242 ------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 17 11: 9:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07E1D37BB16 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:09:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA94107; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:09:24 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:09:24 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200004171809.UAA94107@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: <8ddh4f$26m1$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> Organization: Administration TU Clausthal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.4-19991219-STABLE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In list.freebsd-chat Alexander Langer wrote: > Thus spake David Scheidt (dscheidt@enteract.com): > > > I'd like to see a dog that can post to -arch :) > > Has Satoshi's hamster ever posted to -arch? He has to other lists. > > Don't know, but posting hamsters are nothing special, but postings dogs are. > That's why I ask :) Well, there's a saying ``On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog.'' ;-) Regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18/61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) "In jedem Stück Kohle wartet ein Diamant auf seine Geburt" (Terry Pratchett) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 17 11:10:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1D29937BBC4 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:10:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 1616 invoked by uid 211); 17 Apr 2000 18:09:42 -0000 Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 23:39:41 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: J McKitrick Cc: David Schwartz , "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: M$ anti-trust case Message-ID: <20000417233941.A532@theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <3.0.6.32.20000417104107.0088ee50@mail85.pair.com> <001201bfa891$92066480$021d85d1@youwant.to> <20000417183905.D27040@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000417183905.D27040@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org on Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 06:39:05PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org J McKitrick said on Apr 17, 2000 at 18:39:05: > On Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 10:22:56AM -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > > > So now Netscape and Sun are the small guys?!?!?! The Microsoft anti-trust > > case is not about big versus small. > > Unfortunately, though the judge ruled M$ broke the law, many are arguing > that M$ really hasn't hurt anyone but developers, and has helped consumers. > Unfortunately, it appears that is the case. Um, if that is the case, why is it unfortunate? :) I think M$/IBM did help consumers in the early days, by making cheap and usable computers widely available. Non-Intel computers even today are much more highly priced. The trouble started when the power of the machines exceeded the capabilities of MS-DOS, but because of their entrenched monopoly alternatives couldn't really develop. So people got stuck in Windows 3.1, then Windows 95, etc, only because they wanted backward compatibility for whatever reason. The real and dangerous monopoly M$ has is not in operating systems but in office software and proprietary file formats. Of course, they got that monopoly thanks partly to their Windows monopoly. As long as 90% of the people out there keep believing that a Word file is the only way to send formatted documents, competitors will keep having to work at maintaining compatibility with Word, and M$ will keep trying to keep ahead of that (in the process breaking compatibility with earlier versions of its own software), and users will get caught in a useless upgrade cycle with no benefit in quality. This is really their gameplan, to make their stuff incompatible with everyone else but so widespread that everyone else is forced to switch. People don't really care about the OS: if everyone used StarOffice, I know lots of people would be happy to run it on Unix rather than Windoze. The customer suffers in being forced to pay for a bloated, crashy Word/Office 2000 that doesn't really work better than a less bloated but equally crashy Word 97. Meanwhile nobody has the incentive to develop anything better. Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 17 11:22:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C11737B8F4 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:22:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA33219; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:21:05 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:21:05 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: J McKitrick Cc: David Schwartz , "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: M$ anti-trust case In-Reply-To: <20000417183905.D27040@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 17 Apr 2000, J McKitrick wrote: > Unfortunately, though the judge ruled M$ broke the law, many are arguing > that M$ really hasn't hurt anyone but developers, and has helped consumers. > Unfortunately, it appears that is the case. > I don't see how MS could possibly have helped consumers. One of things that it does is poorly document the Windows API, and make changes to it, willy-nilly. This makes it much harder for other companies to produce software, particularly where they are competing with an established MS prodcuct, like say MS Office. Preventing competition in the consumer application market is not a help to the consumer. The people that say Billy gates brought the computer to the masses, by giving everyone a machine that they could have at home miss that that would have happened, even in his absence. It likely would have involved more than one OS, which would likely be better than windows. IN a competive enviornment, no one would stand for the sort of shit that windows puts out. Printer drivers that stop working for no reason, random crashes, software the installs system files, on top of software that installed other vgersions of the same file? Ick. Windows 2000 is pretty close to having stuff that TOPS-10 had in 1975. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 17 11:27:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EEE637B7DD for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:27:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA21995 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:27:32 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:27:32 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources In-Reply-To: <200004171809.UAA94107@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 17 Apr 2000, Oliver Fromme wrote: > In list.freebsd-chat Alexander Langer wrote: > > Thus spake David Scheidt (dscheidt@enteract.com): > > > > I'd like to see a dog that can post to -arch :) > > > Has Satoshi's hamster ever posted to -arch? He has to other lists. > >=20 > > Don't know, but posting hamsters are nothing special, but postings dog= s are. > > That's why I ask :) >=20 > Well, there's a saying > ``On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog.'' > ;-) >=20 Provided your talk doesn't always center on fire-hydrants, of course 8-) > Regards > Oliver >=20 > --=20 > Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18/61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany > (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) >=20 > "In jedem St=FCck Kohle wartet ein Diamant auf seine Geburt" > (Terry Pratchett) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 17 12:13:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18F5E37BB10 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 12:13:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r20.bfm.org [216.127.220.116]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 14:13:35 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000417141142.008aee60@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 14:11:42 -0500 To: "David Schwartz" , "J McKitrick" , From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: RE: M$ anti-trust case In-Reply-To: <001201bfa891$92066480$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: <3.0.6.32.20000417104107.0088ee50@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:22 17-04-2000 -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > So now Netscape and Sun are the small guys?!?!?! The Microsoft anti-trust >case is not about big versus small. I did not say anything about Netscape or Sun being the small guy. I was simply offering an example of how MS methods stifle software productivity. I certainly did not mean to imply that was the only example. Just my own drop in the ocean. To balance my example, I should mention Steve Gibson, the author of SpinRite. He is an example of a small guy who has been very successful. Surprisingly, M$ never tried to create a competitive product. Perhaps it is because SpinRite has always been in 100% assembly language - and pretty much had to be (it is a program that maintains the hard disk by testing it, refreshing it, even reformatting it without any loss of data, depending on user's choices). M$ is certainly not too strong in the assembly language department. It seems to me they like to pretend assembly language does not exist. During DOS era they used to document DOS on the assembly language level. Since the ascent of Winbloats they have kept absolute silence about asm level programming. In fact, many programmers are quite surprised when they learn it is even possible to write assembly language software for Windows! I have a geocities web site dedicated to winasm programming, and I often get email from programmers who had no idea they could write Windows software in 100% assembly language. For a couple years M$ did not upgrade MASM, and even after they made it work for Windows 95, the enclosed documentation kept complete silence on how to use it for it. Only after NASM became popular did they upgrade MASM, though by now most asm programmers do not give a hoot about MASM. After all, with NASM you can assemble the same source code (with perhaps a few conditionals) for Windows, FreeBSD, Linux, and just about anything else. But MASM only produces DOS and Windows object files. Cheers, Adam ----------------------------------------------------------- "I think, therefore I am." - Seventeenth Century Philosophy "I publish what I think, therefore I have." - Twenty-First Century Action Details at http://www.OnlinePublisher.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 17 12:23: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0E6E37B786 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 12:22:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (jack@localhost) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e3HJLXF86136; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:21:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:21:33 -0400 (EDT) From: jack To: J McKitrick Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: M$ anti-trust case In-Reply-To: <20000417183905.D27040@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Today J McKitrick wrote: > On Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 10:22:56AM -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > > > So now Netscape and Sun are the small guys?!?!?! The Microsoft anti-trust > > case is not about big versus small. > > Unfortunately, though the judge ruled M$ broke the law, many are arguing > that M$ really hasn't hurt anyone but developers, and has helped consumers. > Unfortunately, it appears that is the case. Consumers were hurt, not helped, by being deprived of the quality software those developers would have produced. Instead they are stuck with Bill's crap in a box. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 17 12:28:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jdcochran.fiawol.org (jdcochran.fiawol.org [209.122.117.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3C6E37B939 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 12:28:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gus@fiawol.org) Received: from localhost (gus@localhost) by jdcochran.fiawol.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA14404; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:28:09 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from gus@fiawol.org) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:28:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Gus Mancuso To: John Cc: "Daniel J. Zaccariello" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: MS gets caught? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000415011943.00ad3180@mail.udel.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Know where we can get the "complete" information? --Gus On Sat, 15 Apr 2000, John wrote: > Ya... I found that out when a more complete release came out about 4PM > eastern time... my apologies for jumping the gun. > > --john > > > >Greets, > > > >That article is based on incomplete information. Typical alarmist media > >drivel. > > > > > >At 04/14/2000 02:29 PM Friday, you wrote: > >>Anybody heard any more info on M$ getting caught putting in back doors to > >>their web servers? Some info at: > >> > >>http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/stories/news/0,4153,2547770,00.html > >> > >>Found it to be a bit interesting... especially that M$ says they will > >>"warn the largest web providers in the US" about the problem... in other > >>words, they're saying "screw all the other countries, and screw the little > >>and medium sized guys". > >> > >>Quite interesting... > >> > >>--John > >> > >> > >> > >>To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >>with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 17 13:12:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA34F37B7D6 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:12:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:12:05 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "David Scheidt" , "J McKitrick" Cc: Subject: RE: M$ anti-trust case Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:12:04 -0700 Message-ID: <000001bfa8a9$33133760$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I don't see how MS could possibly have helped consumers. I don't see how MS could possibly have hurt consumers. > One of > things that > it does is poorly document the Windows API, and make changes to it, > willy-nilly. This makes it much harder for other companies to produce > software, particularly where they are competing with an established MS > prodcuct, like say MS Office. Preventing competition in the consumer > application market is not a help to the consumer. Actually, anything MS does to make Windows worse, less competitive, or less useful helps the consumer as it encourages other companies to develop alternatives and superior products. Believe it or not, if MS makes Windows better, consumers win. If MS makes Windows worse, consumers win. So long as nobody intervenes to force consumers to buy products they don't want or props up products that the free market tried to squeeze out, consumers will always win. The problem occurs when sore losers decide to keep up a fight that the market doesn't want. Ask yourself honestly which situation is better for consumers, Microsoft and Netscape doing the exact same development to produce two nearly identical browsers, both free, or all those talented Netscape engineers working on the next technology that's going to make the browser obsolete? Anything the government does to prop up existing markets and foster competition in them will draw more and more resources away from the really new. The company that will be able to unseat Microsoft will not do it by making a comparable (or even slightly better) browser, operating system, or office suite. They will do it by producing something dramatically new, different, and better. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 17 13:40:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75CAF37B8A0 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:40:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA76308; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:39:25 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:39:25 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: David Schwartz Cc: J McKitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: M$ anti-trust case In-Reply-To: <000001bfa8a9$33133760$021d85d1@youwant.to> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 17 Apr 2000, David Schwartz wrote: > > > Actually, anything MS does to make Windows worse, less competitive, or less > useful helps the consumer as it encourages other companies to develop > alternatives and superior products. Bullshit. That would be true if there a *competitive* market. If there excessive, artificial barriers to entering the market, you don't have proper competition. In that case, the clearly inferior product can dominate the market. > So long as nobody intervenes to force consumers to buy products they don't > want or props up products that the free market tried to squeeze out, > consumers will always win. The problem occurs when sore losers decide to > keep up a fight that the market doesn't want. Or they don't get into a fight that market would want, because they can't. Regards, David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 17 13:47:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ha1.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A939D37B9ED for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:47:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from craig-burgess@home.net) Received: from home.net ([24.0.178.21]) by mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with ESMTP id <20000417204737.IPKN8790.mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com@home.net>; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:47:37 -0700 Message-ID: <38FB79A9.ADB90550@home.net> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:52:57 -0700 From: Craig Burgess X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: J McKitrick Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: M$ anti-trust case References: <20000417160713.B27040@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org J McKitrick wrote: > > At the risk of rehashing old material, i got into a debate with my dad over > this case. He's asking me how it has hurt him to buy software that does > what he wants for as cheap as he has gotten it. He claims that if there > were anything out there better, it could become popular on the merits of > being better... > Any thoughts? Yup. Microsoft has not faced any real competition on Intel since effectively killing DR-DOS. The popularity of Microsoft OS offerings -- more recently "productivity suites" -- is not a product of "market choice" but of Microsoft marketing and exclusionary OEM contracts. Microsoft managed to get OEMs (original equipment manufacturers) to sign exclusive pre-load agreements for MS-DOS and later for MS-Windows. When PC manufacturers began including an operating system on the machines they built, as far as the consumer was concerned, there was only Microsoft. The agony of installing an operating system was removed by the manufacturer but -- here's the anti-competitive part -- even if a customer wanted another OS, it's probable that the OEM was prevented from installing anything except MS-DOS and/or MS-Windows. What is Joe Consumer supposed to think when the **only** software which is preloaded on PCs is from Microsoft? That it's the best? Probably. Is that the truth? Probably not. Are you aware of the patent infringement suit (Stac v. Microsoft)? Do you know the origin of "DoubleSpace?" of the "defrag utility" or of "MemMaker?" Have you been watching the latest bouts in the streaming media arena (Real Networks)? craig To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 17 14:30: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F82E37BBEB; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 14:30:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from slave (doug@slave [10.0.0.1]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA53530; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 14:29:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 14:29:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton X-Sender: doug@dt051n0b.san.rr.com To: Mike Pritchard Cc: "Daniel O'Connor" , Kris Kennaway , chat@FreeBSD.org, "Daniel O'Connor" , Anatoly Vorobey , Warner Losh Subject: Re: PC Keyboard Scancodes In-Reply-To: <20000417050105.A83612@mppsystems.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 17 Apr 2000, Mike Pritchard wrote: > As to someone asking about the keycodes, it looks like the > "sleep" button generates the same code as the microsoft keyboard, > so maybe that is somewhat "official". So at least for that one, > we might want to see if Linux/the other *BSDs have definied anything > for that and stick with it. I'm far from an expert on this, but I do remember reading an article recently (forgot where) that talked about "The PC Industry" wanting to establish a standard for sleep, suspend and power keys on the keyboard, ala macintosh. Sounds like this is a step in that direction. Doug -- Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. -- W. Somerset Maugham To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 17 14:39:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D43C637B8A0; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 14:39:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA52822; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:39:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id PAA73384; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:38:49 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004172138.PAA73384@harmony.village.org> To: Doug Barton Subject: Re: PC Keyboard Scancodes Cc: Mike Pritchard , "Daniel O'Connor" , Kris Kennaway , chat@FreeBSD.org, "Daniel O'Connor" , Anatoly Vorobey In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 17 Apr 2000 14:29:42 PDT." References: Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:38:49 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message Doug Barton writes: : I'm far from an expert on this, but I do remember reading an : article recently (forgot where) that talked about "The PC : Industry" wanting to establish a standard for sleep, suspend and power : keys on the keyboard, ala macintosh. Sounds like this is a step in that : direction. There's a standard for those keys. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 17 15:39: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E05E937B8A0 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:39:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA22272; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 16:37:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000417163647.03e1c5b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 16:37:21 -0600 To: J McKitrick , David Schwartz From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: M$ anti-trust case Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000417183905.D27040@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <001201bfa891$92066480$021d85d1@youwant.to> <3.0.6.32.20000417104107.0088ee50@mail85.pair.com> <001201bfa891$92066480$021d85d1@youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:39 AM 4/17/2000 , J McKitrick wrote: >Unfortunately, though the judge ruled M$ broke the law, many are arguing >that M$ really hasn't hurt anyone but developers, and has helped consumers. Hurting developers hurts consumers. This is why the GPL hurts consumers as well. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 17 15:40:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B754437BBC0 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:40:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r14.bfm.org [216.127.220.110]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:40:16 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000417173627.0089d490@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:36:27 -0500 To: From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: RE: M$ anti-trust case In-Reply-To: <000001bfa8a9$33133760$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 13:12 17-04-2000 -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > Actually, anything MS does to make Windows worse, less competitive, or less >useful helps the consumer as it encourages other companies to develop >alternatives and superior products. Then why isn't everybody using FreeBSD? The whole point of the anti-trust case is that Microsoft used dirty tricks to undermine competition. MS success is not based on a superior product. It is based on exclusive contracts with major computer manufacturers to include "free" Windows on the system. How many times have I asked local people here who call for help why they are using Windows? "You mean there is something else?" How many times have I asked computer science students of the local technical college if they were taught Unix and got a blank stare ("What's Unix?")! And, even, how many people think that Bill Gates wrote DOS? That he is some kind of a programming genius! Nothing Microsoft does encourages other companies to develop alternatives or superior products. Microsoft has always thrived on creating *inferior* products. The true progress in computing does not come from being a better programmer: It comes from developing a new and original idea for a new and original product. That is the hard part. Anyone (well, almost anyone), for example, can write another Photoshop, but it took Adobe to write the first one because they had the vision for it. It was easy for Microsoft to then write their Picture Publisher and sell it cheaper. They did not have to spend any effort in coming up with the idea, they just had to copy the idea, and create an *inferior* product which then they could sell cheaper (luckily this is actually a poor example because they were unable to unseat Adobe). Where Microsoft literally hurt and keeps hurting consumers is not in producing superior products but by taking other people's ideas and producing a similar product cheaper (since they did not have the costs of developing the product, only the cost of emulating it). Consequently, companies stopped bothering coming up with new and original ideas because they knew that when they introduce something revolutionary, M$ would undercut them. Hence no more new ideas. There has been no revolutionary software developed in the last ten years. Only bug fixes, and perhaps some new features to the same old stuff. Instead of coming up with new things, all we get is software that tries to integrate many old things into one product, resulting in software that is too complex to maintain and debug, software that requires megabytes of memory instead of kilobytes. Software no longer does one thing and does it well. Instead it does it all, and does it poorly. Take, for example, the software I am using at this very moment (since I am in Windbloats right now): Eudora. It is an "integrated" piece of crap. It receives email, it sends email, it displays email, it has a built-in editor. And it crashes a lot several times a day. What it should be doing is let some other software handle the receiving of the email. It should let yet another software send the email. It should probably display the email on its own, but it should let me use any editor I want to write what I am writing right now. That's how mutt does it when I am in FreeBSD. This kind of integration stifles productivity and competition. It just takes too many resources to develop software that does it all. Unix has pine, and mutt, and many others, simply because their developers can concentrate on doing one thing and one thing only. M$ has robbed us of KISS and replaced it with KILL (keep it large, lumpy). Adam ----------------------------------------------------------- "I think, therefore I am." - Seventeenth Century Philosophy "I publish what I think, therefore I have." - Twenty-First Century Action Details at http://www.OnlinePublisher.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 17 15:41:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21A7C37BAFF; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:41:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from slave (doug@slave [10.0.0.1]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA53819; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:41:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:41:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton X-Sender: doug@dt051n0b.san.rr.com To: Warner Losh Cc: Mike Pritchard , "Daniel O'Connor" , Kris Kennaway , chat@FreeBSD.org, "Daniel O'Connor" , Anatoly Vorobey Subject: Re: PC Keyboard Scancodes In-Reply-To: <200004172138.PAA73384@harmony.village.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 17 Apr 2000, Warner Losh wrote: > In message Doug Barton writes: > : I'm far from an expert on this, but I do remember reading an > : article recently (forgot where) that talked about "The PC > : Industry" wanting to establish a standard for sleep, suspend and power > : keys on the keyboard, ala macintosh. Sounds like this is a step in that > : direction. > > There's a standard for those keys. Hey, I'm a prophet! :) -- Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. -- W. Somerset Maugham To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 17 15:42: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1917837BB65 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:42:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA22305; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 16:40:29 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000417163757.03d33870@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 16:40:25 -0600 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" , "David Schwartz" , "J McKitrick" , From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: M$ anti-trust case In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000417141142.008aee60@mail85.pair.com> References: <001201bfa891$92066480$021d85d1@youwant.to> <3.0.6.32.20000417104107.0088ee50@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:11 PM 4/17/2000 , G. Adam Stanislav wrote: >I did not say anything about Netscape or Sun being the small guy. I was >simply offering an example of how MS methods stifle software productivity. >I certainly did not mean to imply that was the only example. Just my own >drop in the ocean. > >To balance my example, I should mention Steve Gibson, the author of >SpinRite. He is an example of a small guy who has been very successful. >Surprisingly, M$ never tried to create a competitive product. Actually, Microsoft licensed from Symantec (for free -- at "gunpoint") a product which copies the innermost workings of Gibson's. They incorporated it into DoubleSpace and Scandisk. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 17 15:51: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D35C937BB8E for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:50:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r14.bfm.org [216.127.220.110]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:51:11 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000417174932.00890630@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:49:32 -0500 To: Brett Glass , From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: RE: M$ anti-trust case In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000417163757.03d33870@localhost> References: <3.0.6.32.20000417141142.008aee60@mail85.pair.com> <001201bfa891$92066480$021d85d1@youwant.to> <3.0.6.32.20000417104107.0088ee50@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 16:40 17-04-2000 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: >Actually, Microsoft licensed from Symantec (for free -- at "gunpoint") >a product which copies the innermost workings of Gibson's. They >incorporated it into DoubleSpace and Scandisk. True, but Scandisk comes nowhere near to what SpinRite does. Scandisk only fixes problems after they happen, SpinRite prevents them. I once had a power surge destroy everything in my system, except the hard disk which, luckily, I had SpinRited the day before it happened. I don't know much about DoubleSpace. Cheers, Adam ----------------------------------------------------------- "I think, therefore I am." - Seventeenth Century Philosophy "I publish what I think, therefore I have." - Twenty-First Century Action Details at http://www.OnlinePublisher.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 17 15:55:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE72337BB48 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:55:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r14.bfm.org [216.127.220.110]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:55:38 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000417175400.00891150@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:54:00 -0500 To: Brett Glass From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: M$ anti-trust case Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000417163647.03e1c5b0@localhost> References: <20000417183905.D27040@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <001201bfa891$92066480$021d85d1@youwant.to> <3.0.6.32.20000417104107.0088ee50@mail85.pair.com> <001201bfa891$92066480$021d85d1@youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 16:37 17-04-2000 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: >Hurting developers hurts consumers. This is why the GPL hurts consumers >as well. Agreed. Two sides of the same coin. And a double jeopardy. If you produce quality commercial software, M$ will undercut you; If you produce quality shareware, some kid will steal your idea and produce a gpled version. Either way the consumer seems to save money, but loses big. Cheers, Adam ----------------------------------------------------------- "I think, therefore I am." - Seventeenth Century Philosophy "I publish what I think, therefore I have." - Twenty-First Century Action Details at http://www.OnlinePublisher.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 17 16:56:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1EA837B64F for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 16:56:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sprice@hiwaay.net) Received: from localhost (sprice@localhost) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e3HNuDk03983 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:56:13 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:56:13 -0500 (CDT) From: Steve Price To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Un*x scripting magic Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi all, A have a chunk of perl code something like this. # insert bunch of code here my $msg <; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:14:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA23353; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:14:05 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000417181245.0463d770@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:14:02 -0600 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" , From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: M$ anti-trust case In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000417174932.00890630@mail85.pair.com> References: <4.2.2.20000417163757.03d33870@localhost> <3.0.6.32.20000417141142.008aee60@mail85.pair.com> <001201bfa891$92066480$021d85d1@youwant.to> <3.0.6.32.20000417104107.0088ee50@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:49 PM 4/17/2000 , G. Adam Stanislav wrote: >At 16:40 17-04-2000 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > >Actually, Microsoft licensed from Symantec (for free -- at "gunpoint") > >a product which copies the innermost workings of Gibson's. They > >incorporated it into DoubleSpace and Scandisk. > >True, but Scandisk comes nowhere near to what SpinRite does. Scandisk only >fixes problems after they happen, SpinRite prevents them. Not true. Scandisk has, for a long time, had a mode in which it does a "deep scan" and refreshes the data on the disk. Gibson examined their code and discovered that they had incorporated some of his code VERBATIM! --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 17 17:24:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.25.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0235D37B64F for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:24:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ohoyer@fbwi.fh-wilhelmshaven.de) Received: from fettesau.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (stuwopc5.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.209.5]) by mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA25458 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 02:24:40 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990225010419.009bed10@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> X-Sender: ohoyer@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 01:23:19 +0100 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Olaf Hoyer Subject: Re: Un*x scripting magic In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 18:56 17.04.00 -0500, you wrote: >Hi all, > >A have a chunk of perl code something like this. > > # insert bunch of code here > > my $msg <%%MESSAGE%% >EndOfMessage > > # more code goes here > >Then I have a multi-line (printable characters only) ASCII >text file containing the message that I'd like to replace >for %%MESSAGE%%. [1] Anyone have a neat little trick in >their bag-o-magic? I know the answer should be really >obvious but everything I've tried thus either hasn't worked >or was too convoluted. > Hi! Well, from my limited Java experience (begun courses this year) two ideas came to mind: Is it possible to read it in from a text file, or defined in the beginning of the source code, or a dedicated subroutine? Then I'd put this into a string or array long enough to handle that, perhaps even split it into several substrings of its too long... Regards Olaf Hoyer -------- Olaf Hoyer www.nightfire.de mailto:Olaf.Hoyer@nightfire.de FreeBSD- Turning PC's into workstations ICQ:22838075 Liebe und Hass sind nicht blind, aber geblendet vom Feuer, dass sie selber mit sich tragen. (Nietzsche) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 17 17:46:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.25.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5553F37B6F3 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:46:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ohoyer@fbwi.fh-wilhelmshaven.de) Received: from fettesau.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (stuwopc5.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.209.5]) by mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA01861 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 02:46:39 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990225013855.00a03580@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> X-Sender: ohoyer@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 01:45:22 +0100 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Olaf Hoyer Subject: Source code snippets/applets in Java or C Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi! got an issue for my starting programming adventures: Are there any good sources for source code, preferrably written in Java (as I'm coding it), or C? I think about some "ready-to-run" snippets like doing some calculations, filling arrays with stuff and manipulating them etc... No big things, just (enhanced) basic stuff. I also thought (in case of nobody else mirroring such things) to put some of it along with some lecture stuff of my programming classes on my homepage. Anyone has experience in how far some code could be protected against that whether by commercial license or other restricting licenses like GPL (Brett, your turn ;-) )? TIA Olaf Hoyer -------- Olaf Hoyer www.nightfire.de mailto:Olaf.Hoyer@nightfire.de FreeBSD- Turning PC's into workstations ICQ:22838075 Liebe und Hass sind nicht blind, aber geblendet vom Feuer, dass sie selber mit sich tragen. (Nietzsche) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 17 19:36:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 427A537B9AB for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 19:36:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: from originative.co.uk (lobster.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.241]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id C02C51D15F; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 03:36:44 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <38FBCA3C.46380367@originative.co.uk> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 03:36:44 +0100 From: Paul Richards Organization: Originative Solutions Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en-GB, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Steve Price Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Un*x scripting magic References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Steve Price wrote: > > Hi all, > > A have a chunk of perl code something like this. > > # insert bunch of code here > > my $msg < %%MESSAGE%% > EndOfMessage > > # more code goes here > > Then I have a multi-line (printable characters only) ASCII > text file containing the message that I'd like to replace > for %%MESSAGE%%. [1] Anyone have a neat little trick in > their bag-o-magic? I know the answer should be really > obvious but everything I've tried thus either hasn't worked > or was too convoluted. What's wrong with the obvious? open(MESSAGE, $MESSAGE) || die; while () { $msg .= $_; } You can probably optimise that a bit, read the whole file in one go for starters. Paul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 17 19:46:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0716137B7EE for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 19:46:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sprice@hiwaay.net) Received: from localhost (sprice@localhost) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e3I2kah00543; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 21:46:36 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 21:46:36 -0500 (CDT) From: Steve Price To: Paul Richards Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Un*x scripting magic In-Reply-To: <38FBCA3C.46380367@originative.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 18 Apr 2000, Paul Richards wrote: # > Then I have a multi-line (printable characters only) ASCII # > text file containing the message that I'd like to replace # > for %%MESSAGE%%. [1] Anyone have a neat little trick in # > their bag-o-magic? I know the answer should be really # > obvious but everything I've tried thus either hasn't worked # > or was too convoluted. # # What's wrong with the obvious? It doesn't embed the text in the script. So everytime I execute the script I have to re-read the file. # open(MESSAGE, $MESSAGE) || die; # while () { # $msg .= $_; # } # # You can probably optimise that a bit, read the whole file in one go for # starters. As someone else pointed out something like this would work if I didn't want to embed the content within the code in its final form yet keep them separate while they are in CVS. :) $msg = `cat foo`; -steve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 17 19:50:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE4EC37B6F2 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 19:50:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-3.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.42]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA08256; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 21:50:17 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 21:50:17 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: Steve Price Cc: Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Un*x scripting magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 17 Apr 2000, Steve Price wrote: > > As someone else pointed out something like this would work > if I didn't want to embed the content within the code in its > final form yet keep them separate while they are in CVS. :) > The obvious solution to me is to have script that generates your script and includes your message text. Since it's instantly obvious to me, this is unlikely to be the best way to do it. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 17 20: 4:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E44937BAF4 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:04:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: from originative.co.uk (lobster.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.241]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26E771D15F; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 04:04:32 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <38FBD0C0.F3385C66@originative.co.uk> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 04:04:32 +0100 From: Paul Richards Organization: Originative Solutions Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en-GB, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Steve Price Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Un*x scripting magic References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Steve Price wrote: > > On Tue, 18 Apr 2000, Paul Richards wrote: > > # > Then I have a multi-line (printable characters only) ASCII > # > text file containing the message that I'd like to replace > # > for %%MESSAGE%%. [1] Anyone have a neat little trick in > # > their bag-o-magic? I know the answer should be really > # > obvious but everything I've tried thus either hasn't worked > # > or was too convoluted. > # > # What's wrong with the obvious? > > It doesn't embed the text in the script. So everytime I > execute the script I have to re-read the file. Well in that case you need a pre-processor since there's no other way you can embed the information in the script. Write another perl script that reads your runtime script and does the substitution. In fact, it's not too hard assuming some constraints on the text (i.e. it shouldn't include %%.*%% strings) and that the placeholders are on a line of their own. It's not that much effort to make the whole thing more generic but the following few lines will probably do the job you want. my $SCRIPT = "the script to be preprocessed"; open(SCRIPT, $SCRIPT) || die; while (