From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 20 0: 4:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4E9137B440; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 00:04:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id AAA98200; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 00:04:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 00:04:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Marius Bendiksen Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 19 Aug 2000, Marius Bendiksen wrote: > > If FreeBSD migrates to additional architectures, how much of its > > `goodness' will translate directly to other platforms?? Moreover, how > > much future effort and talent will be diverted into porting efforts rather > > than single platform perfection?? One must always trade off optimal > > platform performance for the sake of portability! > > The issue here is also how many platforms, and what kind, you port to. > Porting to the UltraSPARC is different from trying to backport to a 6502 > with a ram extender. Hey, I'd love to run FreeBSD on my Apple IIe! :-) Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 20 13:31:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop2.gte.net (smtppop2pub.gte.net [206.46.170.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD9CD37B43C for ; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 13:31:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from evrtwa1-ar4-146-005.dsl.gtei.net (evrtwa1-ar4-146-005.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.146.5]) by smtppop2.gte.net with ESMTP ; id PAA13571558 Sun, 20 Aug 2000 15:25:26 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 13:27:57 -0700 (PDT) From: The Clark Family X-Sender: res03db2@orthanc.dsl.gtei.net To: David Kelly Cc: jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org, narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee, brooks@one-eyed-alien.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! In-Reply-To: <200008151718.e7FHIbb13082@mail.hiwaay.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At least in the PCB market, the software was being developed on UNIX before wintel systems were suited to the task. Large numbers of objects in the applications required large amounts of RAM, etc. PCs with 512MB-2GB of RAM haven't been common for very long. [RC] On Tue, 15 Aug 2000, David Kelly wrote: > j mckitrick writes: > > | The stereotypical unix worstation uses are: > > | * SUN - cad/eda > > | * HP - GIS and similar > > | * SGI - scientific visualisation > > > > CAD i know, but what are EDA and GIS? > > Electronic Design and Automation > Geographical Information System > > > And why is Sun better for CAD, anyway? Can't NT or M$ do just as well? > > Its an area Sun and Unix got a solid foothold before Microsoft's > nose was able to smell $. > > Microsoft would have the world to believe NT is just as good as Unix. > But those I have known who spend their careers on CAD workstations have > learned to leverage the tool nature of Unix and minimize the grunt work. > And when one spends over $50k per seat one has the right to expect > higher quality than Microsoft delivers. > > NT's "we know better than you" GUI doesn't cut the mustard. > > > And is there really that much of a demand for esoteric uses such as these? > > The EDA market is huge. It doesn't take very many $50k seats (software > only) before it adds up. The shrinkwrap schematic and PCB portion is > only a small slice of the EDA pie. > > -- > David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net (hm) > ====================================================================== > The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its > capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 20 19: 6:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63F6037B423 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 19:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bonsai.hiwaay.net (tnt6-216-180-4-36.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.4.36]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7L26SW31790 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 21:06:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from steve@localhost) by bonsai.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.9.3) id e7L26SF43868 for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 21:06:28 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from steve) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 21:06:27 -0500 From: Steve Price To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: QPL license question Message-ID: <20000820210627.F42247@bonsai.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was reading a copy of the QPL license http://www.trolltech.com/products/download/freelicense/license.html and had a question regarding the following paragraphs. IANAL and I don't want to pay one for a translation because I'm just curious what the heck it means. "6. You may develop application programs, reusable components and other software items that link with the original or modified versions of the Software. These items, when distributed, are subject to the following requirements: a. You must ensure that all recipients of machine-executable forms of these items are also able to receive and use the complete machine-readable source code to the items without any charge beyond the costs of data transfer. b. You must explicitly license all recipients of your items to use and re-distribute original and modified versions of the items in both machine-executable and source code forms. The recipients must be able to do so without any charges whatsoever, and they must be able to re-distribute to anyone they choose. c. If the items are not available to the general public, and the initial developer of the Software requests a copy of the items, then you must supply one." This sort of sounds like the GPL to me. If I write a piece of code that for instance links to libqt, does that also mean that I have to release the code for my application or just my changes if any to the libqt source? Please don't try to start any license wars over this. I'm not asking whether this license is better/worse than any other. I'm merely curious what the heck the previous paragraphs from the QPL mean. Thanks. -steve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 20 19:28:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 683B137B424 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 19:28:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 33460 invoked from network); 21 Aug 2000 02:28:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory3.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (qmailr@144.16.71.158) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 21 Aug 2000 02:28:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 2267 invoked by uid 211); 21 Aug 2000 02:28:14 -0000 Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 07:58:14 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Steve Price Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: QPL license question Message-ID: <20000821075814.A2262@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000820210627.F42247@bonsai.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20000820210627.F42247@bonsai.hiwaay.net>; from sprice@hiwaay.net on Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 09:06:27PM -0500 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.0-test3 i686 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Steve Price said on Aug 20, 2000 at 21:06:27: > I was reading a copy of the QPL license > > http://www.trolltech.com/products/download/freelicense/license.html > > and had a question regarding the following paragraphs. IANAL and I > don't want to pay one for a translation because I'm just curious what > the heck it means. > > "6. You may develop application programs, reusable components and > other software items that link with the original or modified > versions of the Software. These items, when distributed, are > subject to the following requirements: > > a. You must ensure that all recipients of machine-executable > forms of these items are also able to receive and use the > complete machine-readable source code to the items without > any charge beyond the costs of data transfer. > > b. You must explicitly license all recipients of your items to > use and re-distribute original and modified versions of the > items in both machine-executable and source code forms. The > recipients must be able to do so without any charges whatsoever, > and they must be able to re-distribute to anyone they choose. > > c. If the items are not available to the general public, and the > initial developer of the Software requests a copy of the items, > then you must supply one." > > This sort of sounds like the GPL to me. If I write a piece of code > that for instance links to libqt, does that also mean that I have to > release the code for my application or just my changes if any to the > libqt source? You have to release the source code of your own application. If you don't want to do that, you can buy a commercial license from Troll Tech. According to one of their people (on Freshmeat some time ago), they are doing this because they don't believe the GPL can be enforced against dynamic linking; if they get clear legal advice that a program dynamically linked against a GPL'd library must be released under the GPL (which is how the FSF intends it, as opposed to linking with an LGPL'd library), they would be willing to use the GPL for Qt too; but apparently their lawyers disagree with the FSF on the legal validity of this, and it hasn't been tested in court. Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 20 19:44:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D3FE37B422 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 19:44:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bonsai.hiwaay.net (tnt6-216-180-4-36.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.4.36]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7L2i3W13095; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 21:44:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from steve@localhost) by bonsai.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.9.3) id e7L2hcL44168; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 21:43:38 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from steve) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 21:43:14 -0500 From: Steve Price To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: QPL license question Message-ID: <20000820214314.H42247@bonsai.hiwaay.net> References: <20000820210627.F42247@bonsai.hiwaay.net> <20000821075814.A2262@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000821075814.A2262@physics.iisc.ernet.in>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 07:58:14AM +0530 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 07:58:14AM +0530, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: # > This sort of sounds like the GPL to me. If I write a piece of code # > that for instance links to libqt, does that also mean that I have to # > release the code for my application or just my changes if any to the # > libqt source? # # You have to release the source code of your own application. If you # don't want to do that, you can buy a commercial license from Troll # Tech. According to one of their people (on Freshmeat some time ago), # they are doing this because they don't believe the GPL can be enforced # against dynamic linking; if they get clear legal advice that a program # dynamically linked against a GPL'd library must be released under the # GPL (which is how the FSF intends it, as opposed to linking with an # LGPL'd library), they would be willing to use the GPL for Qt too; but # apparently their lawyers disagree with the FSF on the legal validity # of this, and it hasn't been tested in court. That's what I surmised. One more question if I may. Let's suppose I have an application that links against a set of proprietary libraries and libqt. I need to release the source for the 'controller' app under the QPL, but does it infect the proprietary source and require me to release the code to it as well? Thanks for the response. -steve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 20 19:50:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10C8437B42C; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 19:50:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-71-105.dialup.hiwaay.net [216.180.71.105]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7L2ohW00244; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 21:50:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA22466; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 21:23:06 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <200008210223.VAA22466@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Kris Kennaway Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: Message from Kris Kennaway of "Sun, 20 Aug 2000 00:04:28 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 21:23:06 -0500 From: David Kelly Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kennaway writes: > On Sat, 19 Aug 2000, Marius Bendiksen wrote: > > > > If FreeBSD migrates to additional architectures, how much of its > > > `goodness' will translate directly to other platforms?? Moreover, how > > > much future effort and talent will be diverted into porting efforts rather > > > than single platform perfection?? One must always trade off optimal > > > platform performance for the sake of portability! > > > > The issue here is also how many platforms, and what kind, you port to. > > Porting to the UltraSPARC is different from trying to backport to a 6502 > > with a ram extender. > > Hey, I'd love to run FreeBSD on my Apple IIe! :-) Saw an Apple //e today at a hamfest. Beleive the seller had to take it home with no takers at $35 for the Monitor ][ and 2 floppies. There was also a table with a //gs for about the same price. I think it would be easier to port to the //gs as its memory model is better. But if I remember right my //gs's 20MB HD thruput was only 20k/sec. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 20 19:53:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0FD5C37B423 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 19:53:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 33595 invoked from network); 21 Aug 2000 02:53:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory3.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (qmailr@144.16.71.158) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 21 Aug 2000 02:53:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 2359 invoked by uid 211); 21 Aug 2000 02:53:18 -0000 Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 08:23:18 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Steve Price Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: QPL license question Message-ID: <20000821082318.B2341@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000820210627.F42247@bonsai.hiwaay.net> <20000821075814.A2262@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000820214314.H42247@bonsai.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20000820214314.H42247@bonsai.hiwaay.net>; from sprice@hiwaay.net on Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 09:43:14PM -0500 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.0-test3 i686 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Steve Price said on Aug 20, 2000 at 21:43:14: > > That's what I surmised. One more question if I may. Let's suppose > I have an application that links against a set of proprietary libraries > and libqt. I need to release the source for the 'controller' app under > the QPL, but does it infect the proprietary source and require me to > release the code to it as well? I have no idea. IANAL... I guess it would be safer not to do this. The GPL does make an exception for proprietary libraries which are a standard part of an operating system, and my guess is Qt should allow it too since it is used on commercial unix systems. I think they would not want you to use any other kind of proprietary library, since otherwise people could simply put all their interesting stuff in a closed-source library and link it with a very minimal open source program... but I don't know what the legal position here is. Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 20 20: 9:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7520237B423 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 20:09:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bonsai.hiwaay.net (tnt6-216-180-4-36.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.4.36]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7L39KW32014; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 22:09:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from steve@localhost) by bonsai.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.9.3) id e7L39KN44345; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 22:09:20 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from steve) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 22:09:20 -0500 From: Steve Price To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Steve Price , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: QPL license question Message-ID: <20000820220920.I42247@bonsai.hiwaay.net> References: <20000820210627.F42247@bonsai.hiwaay.net> <20000821075814.A2262@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000820214314.H42247@bonsai.hiwaay.net> <20000821082318.B2341@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000821082318.B2341@physics.iisc.ernet.in>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 08:23:18AM +0530 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 08:23:18AM +0530, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: # Steve Price said on Aug 20, 2000 at 21:43:14: # > # > That's what I surmised. One more question if I may. Let's suppose # > I have an application that links against a set of proprietary libraries # > and libqt. I need to release the source for the 'controller' app under # > the QPL, but does it infect the proprietary source and require me to # > release the code to it as well? # # I have no idea. IANAL... # I guess it would be safer not to do this. The GPL does make an # exception for proprietary libraries which are a standard part of an # operating system, and my guess is Qt should allow it too since it is # used on commercial unix systems. I think they would not want you # to use any other kind of proprietary library, since otherwise people # could simply put all their interesting stuff in a closed-source library # and link it with a very minimal open source program... but I don't # know what the legal position here is. *grin* That was sort of a rhetorical question. When I replied I was musing to myself that if the 'infection' thing was true (and would standup in court) then all I need to do is write a program for Win*, link it against every .dll on the box, and when someone asks me for the source code to those just point them in to that company in Redmond. :) Come to think of it this would be a good way to get the source for just about any software running on any OS. Nah, that would never standup in court. -steve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 20 20:15:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8E05C37B423 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 20:15:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 33618 invoked from network); 21 Aug 2000 03:15:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory3.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (qmailr@144.16.71.158) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 21 Aug 2000 03:15:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 2401 invoked by uid 211); 21 Aug 2000 03:15:27 -0000 Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 08:45:27 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Steve Price Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: QPL license question Message-ID: <20000821084527.A2396@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000820210627.F42247@bonsai.hiwaay.net> <20000821075814.A2262@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000820214314.H42247@bonsai.hiwaay.net> <20000821082318.B2341@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000820220920.I42247@bonsai.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20000820220920.I42247@bonsai.hiwaay.net>; from sprice@hiwaay.net on Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 10:09:20PM -0500 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.0-test3 i686 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Steve Price said on Aug 20, 2000 at 22:09:20: > *grin* That was sort of a rhetorical question. When I replied I was > musing to myself that if the 'infection' thing was true (and would > standup in court) then all I need to do is write a program for Win*, > link it against every .dll on the box, and when someone asks me for > the source code to those just point them in to that company in > Redmond. :) Actually there is no Qt free edition for Windows. Too bad :-) > Come to think of it this would be a good way to get the source for > just about any software running on any OS. Nah, that would never > standup in court. I guess that's why the GPL has that exception for standard system software. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 21 6: 4:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76B0B37B42C for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 06:04:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13QrFV-00087l-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 14:04:21 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA15763 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 14:04:20 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 14:04:20 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: OSS, Sun, GPL, random ramblings Message-ID: <20000821140419.B13975@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org i've been reading and thinking lately (uh oh :) Once there are OSS versions of software available, is it likely these will grow to dominate, and squash innovation? Sun is releasing OSS applications like staroffice and others. what will be the motivation to write a competing one from scratch? jcm -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 21 6:41:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3188337B423 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 06:41:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13Qrpb-0008cI-00; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 14:41:39 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA16077; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 14:41:37 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 14:41:37 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: The Clark Family Cc: David Kelly , narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee, brooks@one-eyed-alien.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! Message-ID: <20000821144137.D13975@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <200008151718.e7FHIbb13082@mail.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from res03db2@gte.net on Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 01:27:57PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 01:27:57PM -0700, The Clark Family wrote: | | At least in the PCB market, the software was being developed on UNIX | before wintel systems were suited to the task. | | Large numbers of objects in the applications required large amounts of | RAM, etc. | | PCs with 512MB-2GB of RAM haven't been common for very long. i hate to say it, but i am almost to the point of giving up and going back to windows for the time being, anyway. at least for some of the specialized apps. i just do not have the time or the ability at this point to develop my own anyway. besides, why re-invent the wheel? i just read a comment that *nix doesn't even have good, intuitive debugger. all there really are are wrappers for ancient command line utils. this does not seem very state of the art compared with vc++ or softice. jcm -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 21 7:53: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blount.mail.mindspring.net (blount.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EE4937B42C for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 07:52:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jhix.mindspring.com (user-2iniod3.dialup.mindspring.com [165.121.97.163]) by blount.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA12174; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 10:52:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jhix (jhix@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhix.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id HAA05181; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 07:56:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhix@jhix.mindspring.com) Message-Id: <200008211456.HAA05181@mindspring.com> To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 21 Aug 2000 14:41:37 BST." <20000821144137.D13975@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 07:56:31 -0700 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > i just read a comment that *nix doesn't even have good, intuitive debugger. > all there really are are wrappers for ancient command line utils. this does > not seem very state of the art compared with vc++ or softice. That's a feature, not a bug! (Despite what the Microsoft-oriented types believe). I just spent all weekend struggling with a monolithic Windows-based debugger. It doesn't allow me to run a GUI remote from the underlying textual debugger and since it is "licensed software" (with a dongle) it's not possible to have a copy at my remote site without great expense. Further, the command-line oriented debuggers so maligned by the Windows types are very powerful, unlike the rather simpleminded ones that Microsoft produces. I've used VC++ and SDS WOD's (windows oriented debuggers). I'm always very happy to get back to DDD+gdb or just gdb by itself. An additional benefit is that they're modifiable and support cross-development. It's different from the Microsoft way. That's a very *good* thing. :-) Cheers, Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 21 8:52:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E3F037B422 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 08:52:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk ([192.168.91.36] ident=root) by scientia.demon.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 13Qt8Y-000Ez3-00; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 16:05:18 +0100 Received: (from ben@localhost) by strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA02095; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 16:05:18 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from ben) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 16:05:18 +0100 From: Ben Smithurst To: j mckitrick Cc: The Clark Family , David Kelly , narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee, brooks@one-eyed-alien.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! Message-ID: <20000821160518.B20036@strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <200008151718.e7FHIbb13082@mail.hiwaay.net> <20000821144137.D13975@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000821144137.D13975@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick wrote: > i just read a comment that *nix doesn't even have good, intuitive debugger. > all there really are are wrappers for ancient command line utils. So you're going back to an operating system which is basically just a GUI sitting on top of that ancient command line operating system, DOS? Anyway, GDB works fine for me. If you want a graphical version, writing a front-end for that seems like the most sensible thing to do. GDB probably does most things you could want from a debugger, a front-end just makes that eas(y|ier), and I imagine writing a debugger from scratch would be pretty complicated. -- Ben Smithurst / ben@FreeBSD.org / PGP: 0x99392F7D FreeBSD Documentation Project / To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 21 9:12:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8ECD37B423; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 09:12:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA89244; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 18:12:41 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 18:12:40 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Ben Smithurst Cc: j mckitrick , The Clark Family , David Kelly , brooks@one-eyed-alien.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! In-Reply-To: <20000821160518.B20036@strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 21 Aug 2000, Ben Smithurst wrote: > j mckitrick wrote: > > > i just read a comment that *nix doesn't even have good, intuitive debugger. > > all there really are are wrappers for ancient command line utils. > > So you're going back to an operating system which is basically just a > GUI sitting on top of that ancient command line operating system, DOS? > Besides, whoever said that in the first place has no idea about what tools in which shapes exist for unix and what doesn't. Not the whole world is just GDB. > -- > Ben Smithurst / ben@FreeBSD.org / PGP: 0x99392F7D > FreeBSD Documentation Project / > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 21 10: 0:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (mta03-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BEBF37B424; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 10:00:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parish.my.domain ([62.255.96.34]) by mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000821170053.KYWT16423.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@parish.my.domain>; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 18:00:53 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA01308; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 18:00:46 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 18:00:45 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Ben Smithurst Cc: j mckitrick , The Clark Family , David Kelly , narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee, brooks@one-eyed-alien.net, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! Message-ID: <20000821180045.B258@parish> References: <200008151718.e7FHIbb13082@mail.hiwaay.net> <20000821144137.D13975@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000821160518.B20036@strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20000821160518.B20036@strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk>; from ben@freebsd.org on Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 04:05:18PM +0100 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 04:05:18PM +0100, Ben Smithurst wrote: > j mckitrick wrote: > > > i just read a comment that *nix doesn't even have good, intuitive debugger. > > all there really are are wrappers for ancient command line utils. > > So you're going back to an operating system which is basically just a > GUI sitting on top of that ancient command line operating system, DOS? > > Anyway, GDB works fine for me. If you want a graphical version, writing > a front-end for that seems like the most sensible thing to do. Or eminently more sensible is to install ddd(1) from, you guessed it, the mighty ports collection. Yes, it's a front end to gdb, but I found it every bit as good (and easy to use) as the VC++ one I have to use at work. Oh, and BTW, I'm talking about debugging a large monolithic CAD application; 20MB binary and several thousand source files. > GDB > probably does most things you could want from a debugger, a front-end > just makes that eas(y|ier), and I imagine writing a debugger from > scratch would be pretty complicated. > > -- > Ben Smithurst / ben@FreeBSD.org / PGP: 0x99392F7D > FreeBSD Documentation Project / > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- 4.4 - The number of the Beastie ________________________________________________________________ 51.44°N FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org 2.057°W My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark mailto:marko@freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 21 10:13:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29B1237B422 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 10:13:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA22120; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 11:12:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000821110604.04ba5920@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 11:11:53 -0600 To: j mckitrick , The Clark Family From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! Cc: David Kelly , narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee, brooks@one-eyed-alien.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000821144137.D13975@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <200008151718.e7FHIbb13082@mail.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:41 AM 8/21/2000, j mckitrick wrote: >i just read a comment that *nix doesn't even have good, intuitive debugger. >all there really are are wrappers for ancient command line utils. this does >not seem very state of the art compared with vc++ or softice. Unfortunately, the GPLed combination of GCC and gdb has killed any initiative toward new and better compilers and debuggers on UNIX-like platforms. Even if a product is obviously superior, it will have great difficulty competing with something that's given away for free. Few developers have even tried, and those who have (like Metrowerks) are not succeeding. This is a big problem with the GPL. It doesn't allow commercial vendors to make INCREMENTAL improvements on what is available for free and be compensated for doing so. Instead, they must undertake the daunting task of a ground-up reimplementation. And when they're done, who will pay for their work? The market is decimated or gone altogether. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 21 10:22: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 940CC37B423 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 10:21:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13QvGn-000ISh-00; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 18:21:57 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA18134; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 18:21:57 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 18:21:57 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Brett Glass Cc: The Clark Family , David Kelly , narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee, brooks@one-eyed-alien.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! Message-ID: <20000821182156.A17647@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <200008151718.e7FHIbb13082@mail.hiwaay.net> <20000821144137.D13975@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000821110604.04ba5920@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000821110604.04ba5920@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 11:11:53AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | This is a big problem with the GPL. It doesn't allow commercial vendors to | make INCREMENTAL improvements on what is available for free and be compensated | for doing so. Instead, they must undertake the daunting task of a ground-up | reimplementation. And when they're done, who will pay for their work? The | market is decimated or gone altogether. i've heard that there are companies that are contracted to make improvements to GCC and other GPL tools and then are allowed to release the changes as open source. besides, there is no way of proving a given binary was based on a particular source code anyway, especially if it has been rearranged, right? jcm -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 21 10:23:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 554DB37B43F; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 10:23:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13QvIB-000BK3-00; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 18:23:23 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA18144; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 18:23:23 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 18:23:23 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Mark Ovens Cc: Ben Smithurst , The Clark Family , David Kelly , narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee, brooks@one-eyed-alien.net, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! Message-ID: <20000821182322.B17647@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <200008151718.e7FHIbb13082@mail.hiwaay.net> <20000821144137.D13975@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000821160518.B20036@strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk> <20000821180045.B258@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000821180045.B258@parish>; from marko@freebsd.org on Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 06:00:45PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 06:00:45PM +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: | Or eminently more sensible is to install ddd(1) from, you guessed it, | the mighty ports collection. Yes, it's a front end to gdb, but I found | it every bit as good (and easy to use) as the VC++ one I have to use | at work. Oh, and BTW, I'm talking about debugging a large monolithic | CAD application; 20MB binary and several thousand source files. i'll have to give it a look. jcm -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 21 10:34:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6612537B42C for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 10:34:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e7LHXYr26579; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 10:33:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 10:33:34 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: j mckitrick Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OSS, Sun, GPL, random ramblings Message-ID: <20000821103333.K4854@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000821140419.B13975@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <20000821140419.B13975@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 02:04:20PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * j mckitrick [000821 06:04] wrote: > > i've been reading and thinking lately (uh oh :) > > Once there are OSS versions of software available, > is it likely these will grow to dominate, and squash innovation? Sun is > releasing OSS applications like staroffice and others. what will be the > motivation to write a competing one from scratch? Becasue last I checked Staroffice was a hunk of junk. :) -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 21 10:37:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14F9437B423 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 10:37:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13QvW7-000L4B-00; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 18:37:47 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA18336; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 18:37:46 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 18:37:46 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OSS, Sun, GPL, random ramblings Message-ID: <20000821183746.D17647@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20000821140419.B13975@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000821103333.K4854@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000821103333.K4854@fw.wintelcom.net>; from bright@wintelcom.net on Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 10:33:34AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 10:33:34AM -0700, Alfred Perlstein wrote: | * j mckitrick [000821 06:04] wrote: | > | > i've been reading and thinking lately (uh oh :) | > | > Once there are OSS versions of software available, | > is it likely these will grow to dominate, and squash innovation? Sun is | > releasing OSS applications like staroffice and others. what will be the | > motivation to write a competing one from scratch? | | Becasue last I checked Staroffice was a hunk of junk. :) touche'. but the NEXT one is supposed to be cool. :) component design and all. jcm -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 21 11:16:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail2.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B0C2937B422 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 11:16:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 6290 invoked from network); 21 Aug 2000 18:16:41 -0000 Received: from du211007.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.211.7) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 21 Aug 2000 18:16:41 -0000 Message-ID: <39A171F1.939667D1@mail.ptd.net> Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 14:16:17 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Steve Price Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: QPL license question References: <20000820210627.F42247@bonsai.hiwaay.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Steve Price wrote: > > I was reading a copy of the QPL license > > http://www.trolltech.com/products/download/freelicense/license.html > > and had a question regarding the following paragraphs. IANAL and I > don't want to pay one for a translation because I'm just curious what > the heck it means. > > "6. You may develop application programs, reusable components and > other software items that link with the original or modified > versions of the Software. These items, when distributed, are > subject to the following requirements: > > a. You must ensure that all recipients of machine-executable > forms of these items are also able to receive and use the > complete machine-readable source code to the items without > any charge beyond the costs of data transfer. > > b. You must explicitly license all recipients of your items to > use and re-distribute original and modified versions of the > items in both machine-executable and source code forms. The > recipients must be able to do so without any charges whatsoever, > and they must be able to re-distribute to anyone they choose. > > c. If the items are not available to the general public, and the > initial developer of the Software requests a copy of the items, > then you must supply one." > > This sort of sounds like the GPL to me. If I write a piece of code > that for instance links to libqt, does that also mean that I have to > release the code for my application or just my changes if any to the > libqt source? It all depends on what "the items" refers to. Note that in most (probably all) U.S. jurisdictions, ambiguities in contracts of adhesion such as this are construed against the drafter. So "the items" might, and I think by the usual rules of English does, refer to "the original or modified versions of the Software". Note also that in para b. there is a reference to "your items", which could be construed to indicated a difference between "the items" and "your items". So an argument can be made that you do not have to release your own source. Note that IANAL, and this is not legal advice. Taking this approach could result in litigation. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 21 11:30:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (mta05-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD30337B43C for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 11:30:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parish.my.domain ([62.255.98.91]) by mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000821183031.NVON317.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@parish.my.domain>; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 19:30:31 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA01567; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 19:30:27 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 19:30:26 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: j mckitrick , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OSS, Sun, GPL, random ramblings Message-ID: <20000821193026.D258@parish> References: <20000821140419.B13975@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000821103333.K4854@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20000821103333.K4854@fw.wintelcom.net>; from bright@wintelcom.net on Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 10:33:34AM -0700 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 10:33:34AM -0700, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * j mckitrick [000821 06:04] wrote: > > > > i've been reading and thinking lately (uh oh :) > > > > Once there are OSS versions of software available, > > is it likely these will grow to dominate, and squash innovation? Sun is > > releasing OSS applications like staroffice and others. what will be the > > motivation to write a competing one from scratch? > > Becasue last I checked Staroffice was a hunk of junk. :) > But at least it isn't a Microsoft hunk of junk :) > -Alfred > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- 4.4 - The number of the Beastie ________________________________________________________________ 51.44°N FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org 2.057°W My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark mailto:marko@freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 21 12:15: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90B3037B7AE for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 12:15:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA23396; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 13:13:30 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000821130958.05baccd0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 13:13:24 -0600 To: j mckitrick From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! Cc: The Clark Family , David Kelly , narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee, brooks@one-eyed-alien.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000821182156.A17647@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000821110604.04ba5920@localhost> <200008151718.e7FHIbb13082@mail.hiwaay.net> <20000821144137.D13975@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000821110604.04ba5920@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:21 AM 8/21/2000, j mckitrick wrote: >i've heard that there are companies that are contracted to make improvements >to GCC and other GPL tools and then are allowed to release the changes as >open source. "Allowed?" They MUST; the licensing won't let them release them any other way. The result, alas, is at best that they are on the work-for-hire treadmill and can never build a product base which will allow them to avoid living hand to mouth. Stallman says, in The GNU Manifesto, that this is one of the goals of the GPL: to reduce programmers to the level of grunts. >besides, there is no way of proving a given binary was based on a particular >source code anyway, especially if it has been rearranged, right? If the binary shares bugs or quirks with known source code, it is likely that it was derived from it. This is often used to support a claim of copyright infringement in court and to justify subpoenas of source code. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 21 13:51:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 367DD37B424 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 13:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13QyXx-000DJI-00; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 21:51:53 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA20607; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 21:51:52 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 21:51:52 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GPL v. BSD and fragmentation Message-ID: <20000821215151.A20205@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000821110604.04ba5920@localhost> <200008151718.e7FHIbb13082@mail.hiwaay.net> <20000821144137.D13975@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000821110604.04ba5920@localhost> <20000821182156.A17647@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000821130958.05baccd0@localhost> <20000821202743.A19458@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000821133445.05ba7200@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000821133445.05ba7200@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 01:40:30PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org i just realized that if someone works on a project and then signs it to the GPL, then not only have they given up the right to their code, but also the right to make a living by selling enhancements. also, (and this is the scary part) they destroy the motivation for anyone else to ever begin a competing product. wow. jcm -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 21 14:24:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F7EC37B423 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 14:24:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA24709; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 15:23:34 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000821152013.05bb1e00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 15:23:26 -0600 To: j mckitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: OSS, Sun, GPL, random ramblings In-Reply-To: <20000821140419.B13975@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:04 AM 8/21/2000, j mckitrick wrote: >i've been reading and thinking lately (uh oh :) > >Once there are OSS versions of software available, >is it likely these will grow to dominate, and squash innovation? Sun is >releasing OSS applications like staroffice and others. what will be the >motivation to write a competing one from scratch? There is very little. It feels like (and is!) nothing but drudgery to reinvent the wheel from scratch when there's perfectly acceptable code out there already. This is why the KIND of freely available software out there makes a difference. If it's GPLed, one must spend endless hours recoding what's already been done if one hopes to be rewarded for one's efforts. If it's truly free open source software (that is, licensed under a programmer-friendly license such as the BSD license), reimplementation is unnecessary. One can be compensated for the incremental value one adds to the freely available code. That's why the GPL kills innovation and BSD-like licenses do not. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 21 14:35:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from krell.webweaver.net (krell.webweaver.net [206.24.105.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34EFF37B424 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 14:35:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xwin.nmhtech.com (xwin.nmhtech.com [208.138.46.10]) by krell.webweaver.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2C4A20F04 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 14:30:42 -0700 (PDT) Content-Length: 788 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 14:35:36 -0700 (PDT) From: "Nicole Harrington." To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: FIngering freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Before I was able to finger a user at freebsd.org see if they were on etc. Now it seems that freebsd.org no longer has an IP and people.freebsd.org does not allow fingering. Will this be allowed again? Thanks Nicole nicole@unixgirl.com |\ __ /| (`\ http://www.unixgirl.com/ webmistress@dangermouse.org | o_o |__ ) ) http://www.dangermouse.org/ // \\ ---------------------------(((---(((----------------------------------------- -- Powered by Coka-Cola and FreeBSD -- -- Strong enough for a man - But made for a Woman -- -- OWNED? MS: Who's Been In/Virused Your Computer Today? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 21 14:59:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD34337B506 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 14:59:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25150; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 15:59:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000821155826.05bae100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 15:59:27 -0600 To: "Nicole Harrington." , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FIngering freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:35 PM 8/21/2000, Nicole Harrington. wrote: > Before I was able to finger a user at freebsd.org see if they were on > etc. Now >it seems that freebsd.org no longer has an IP and people.freebsd.org does not >allow fingering. Will this be allowed again? Alas, fingering allows address harvesting (and, hence, spamming). So it's not a good idea for the sysadmin to allow it -- except perhaps from the inside. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 22 6:18:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B56737B424 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 06:18:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13RDwx-0003Ti-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:18:43 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA27340 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:18:43 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:18:43 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GPL v. BSD and fragmentation Message-ID: <20000822141843.C27208@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 02:01:56PM -0700, Tani Hosokawa wrote: | On Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 09:51:52PM +0100, j mckitrick wrote: | > | > i just realized that if someone works on a project and then signs it to the | > GPL, then not only have they given up the right to their code, but also the | > right to make a living by selling enhancements. also, (and this is the | > scary part) they destroy the motivation for anyone else to ever begin a | > competing product. wow. | | Well, that's not entirely true. You can still make a living | customizing the program, and you can bill for the time spent to make | those modifications. You just have to release those changes to the | public after you're done writing them. but being the author is no longer an advantage. also, you will never be able to sell the improvements for the price of the original product. and someone can come along and undercut your bid to add improvements. jcm -- jcm -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 22 6:43:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avarice.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4096B37B424 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 06:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from unknown@localhost) by avarice.riverstyx.net (8.10.2/8.10.1) id e7MDUCp18383; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 06:30:12 -0700 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 06:30:12 -0700 From: Tani Hosokawa To: j mckitrick Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL v. BSD and fragmentation Message-ID: <20000822063012.F10643@riverstyx.net> References: <20000822141843.C27208@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20000822141843.C27208@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Tue, Aug 22, 2000 at 02:18:43PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Aug 22, 2000 at 02:18:43PM +0100, j mckitrick wrote: > On Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 02:01:56PM -0700, Tani Hosokawa wrote: > | On Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 09:51:52PM +0100, j mckitrick wrote: > | > > | > i just realized that if someone works on a project and then signs it to the > | > GPL, then not only have they given up the right to their code, but also the > | > right to make a living by selling enhancements. also, (and this is the > | > scary part) they destroy the motivation for anyone else to ever begin a > | > competing product. wow. > | > | Well, that's not entirely true. You can still make a living > | customizing the program, and you can bill for the time spent to make > | those modifications. You just have to release those changes to the > | public after you're done writing them. > > but being the author is no longer an advantage. also, you will never be > able to sell the improvements for the price of the original product. > and someone can come along and undercut your bid to add improvements. Congratulations. Now you understand the GPL philosophy -- intellectual property in the form of software has no intrinsic value beyond the time it took to create it. Either believe that and use the GPL, or don't, and use some other license. You do, however, have the right to continue to modify the original work that came along before the GPL and sell that as a commercial product. You just can't sell derivatives of the GPL's copy. You retain copyright to the unmodified work, and the GPL can't do anything about that. -- tani hosokawa river styx internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 22 8:19:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hellasnet.gr (mail.hellasnet.gr [212.54.192.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CC1B37B505 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 08:19:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (ppp3.patr.hellasnet.gr [212.54.197.18]) by mail.hellasnet.gr (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA14866; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 18:19:55 +0200 (GMT) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.10.2/8.10.2) id e7MDXXA18663; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 16:33:33 +0300 (EEST) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 16:33:33 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Brett Glass Cc: j mckitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OSS, Sun, GPL, random ramblings Message-ID: <20000822163333.B18365@hades.hell.gr> References: <20000821140419.B13975@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000821152013.05bb1e00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000821152013.05bb1e00@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 03:23:26PM -0600 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 03:23:26PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 07:04 AM 8/21/2000, j mckitrick wrote: > > >i've been reading and thinking lately (uh oh :) > > > >Once there are OSS versions of software available, > >is it likely these will grow to dominate, and squash innovation? Sun is > >releasing OSS applications like staroffice and others. what will be the > >motivation to write a competing one from scratch? > > There is very little. It feels like (and is!) nothing but > drudgery to reinvent the wheel from scratch when there's > perfectly acceptable code out there already. Ok, this time it was three entire lines of posting before a flame bait for a new war between GPL and BSD types of licenses was (very elegantly, I have to admit) thrown in by Brett. Anyway, to give me $.02 of opinion on the original poster's question: Even if an open sourced piece of software exists, motivation might still arise for the development of a closed source replacement. I'll have to support this opinion of mine now. There are a lot of factors why one would prefer a closed source solution, some of them--just those few that I can think of right now--being: * Effectiveness for the job at hand. If a closed source solution does everything you want, and an open source solution does *most* of it, but not all, then I'm afraid that for your business you would choose the closed source solution. * Quality of documentation. Nobody likes using a program that has little or no documentation. Some open source programs have close to nothing for documentation, since they are actively being developed and their developers fail to update the documentation as changes are commited. * Support within and from outside the local environment. The support contracts that are offered by many commercial vendors are a major win when it comes to commercial environments. They do believe that they will get timely and very helpful support, just because they paid for it, which is not a rather unrealistic thing to believe. This, of course, has nothing to do with the fact that some times they discover that they paid but they get nothing but a few hints to wait until the next major release is out. Ah well, life is unfair, I guess. Trying to provide your customers with a product that is better, or at least as good, in some of the above points (and others that I probably forgot to mention) will probably give you enough motivation for developing and maintaining a commercial product that has similar functionality with an open source solution. -- Giorgos Keramidas, For my public pgp2 key: finger -l keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 22 9:33:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from diskfarm.firehouse.net (rdu25-12-043.nc.rr.com [24.25.12.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F017D37B423 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 09:33:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from abc@localhost) by diskfarm.firehouse.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA91494; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 16:32:54 GMT (envelope-from abc) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 16:32:54 +0000 From: Alan Clegg To: bliss-s@excite.com Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Advanced OS Questions only you can answer... Message-ID: <20000822163254.J89195@diskfarm.firehouse.net> References: <13790740.966960534480.JavaMail.imail@magic.excite.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <13790740.966960534480.JavaMail.imail@magic.excite.com>; from bliss-s@excite.com on Tue, Aug 22, 2000 at 09:08:54AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moved to -chat] Out of the ether, bliss-s@excite.com spewed forth the following bitstream: > Why do people have to be so mean? Nothing mean, just asking people to do your research for you is really lame. > My dad is not doing my homework. I am. At least you admit that you are asking for us (the community) to do your homework instead of [as others have done] lying about it. Homework requires study, and what you are doing is not study, it is asking the people that have already studied to answer very academic questions. > I was hoping to receive some type of basic understanding of each question, > then take those answers and try and understand the source code. I know the > answers are in the source code somewhere, but understanding it is hard. The understanding comes from study, not someone telling you the answers. Actually, if you just pick up a copy of Kirk's book (as someone else on the list suggested), you will find (with a bit of research) the answers you need. > If you don't want to help out kids like myself, then just don't respond. I > have been researching this for a long time, and every road is a dead end. I > don't think it is fare in receiving an email like this. You don't know how > much work I've been putting into this. Well, all I've seen so-far is that you have asked BSDi (assuming BSDi, as you said "BSD") support for the answers [seemingly even willing to pay to get answers] and you asked on the -hacker list. That is not a lot of work. Study is never a dead-end. BTW, the word is "fair" not "fare", and if you don't like the answers that you are getting, then consider that you may be asking the wrong questions (or the wrong audience). AlanC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 22 10: 0:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 618) id 6DC1837B422; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 10:00:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: FIngering freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Nicole Harrington." at "Aug 21, 2000 02:35:36 pm" To: nicole@unixgirl.com (Nicole Harrington.) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 10:00:48 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20000822170048.6DC1837B422@hub.freebsd.org> From: wpaul@FreeBSD.ORG (Bill Paul) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Before I was able to finger a user at freebsd.org see if they were on etc. Now > it seems that freebsd.org no longer has an IP and people.freebsd.org does not > allow fingering. Will this be allowed again? The freebsd.org machines were moved recently to a new location at Yahoo, and their DNS entries were updated. One change is that freebsd.org is now just an MX record, where previously it was an alias for hub. If you finger username@hub.freebsd.org, it should work as before. -Bill To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 22 13: 5:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop3.gte.net (smtppop3pub.gte.net [206.46.170.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E59C37B440 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 13:05:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from evrtwa1-ar4-146-005.dsl.gtei.net (evrtwa1-ar4-146-005.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.146.5]) by smtppop3.gte.net with ESMTP ; id OAA14674418 Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:59:58 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 13:03:50 -0700 (PDT) From: The Clark Family X-Sender: res03db2@orthanc.dsl.gtei.net To: j mckitrick Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! In-Reply-To: <20000821144137.D13975@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The vendor of our (niche market) PCB software were in the process of going from HP-UX to windows. But they were using NuTcracker to leverage their existing code. Its funny to see a "ported" app running in an Xterminal emulator on NT. As per the debugger: Not all UNIX is open source or GPL. I would expect to find that fancier debugging tools are available, in commercial toolsets on UNIX. I don't have any direct experience, but my co-workers seemed to like the programming tools on HP-UX. (An add on package.) [RC] On Mon, 21 Aug 2000, j mckitrick wrote: > On Sun, Aug 20, 2000 at 01:27:57PM -0700, The Clark Family wrote: > | > | At least in the PCB market, the software was being developed on UNIX > | before wintel systems were suited to the task. > | > | Large numbers of objects in the applications required large amounts of > | RAM, etc. > | > | PCs with 512MB-2GB of RAM haven't been common for very long. > > i hate to say it, but i am almost to the point of giving up and going back > to windows for the time being, anyway. at least for some of the specialized > apps. i just do not have the time or the ability at this point to develop > my own anyway. besides, why re-invent the wheel? > > i just read a comment that *nix doesn't even have good, intuitive debugger. > all there really are are wrappers for ancient command line utils. this does > not seem very state of the art compared with vc++ or softice. > > > > jcm > -- > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 22 13:17:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop2.gte.net (smtppop2pub.gte.net [206.46.170.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD7AB37B43E for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 13:17:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from evrtwa1-ar4-146-005.dsl.gtei.net (evrtwa1-ar4-146-005.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.146.5]) by smtppop2.gte.net with ESMTP ; id PAA14889052 Tue, 22 Aug 2000 15:14:27 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 13:16:59 -0700 (PDT) From: The Clark Family X-Sender: res03db2@orthanc.dsl.gtei.net To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000821110604.04ba5920@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett, Now I'm curious. Did Be go with GCC over Metrowerks because it was cheaper, or because Metrowerks was spending too much time on their Mac products? Or is the Intel version of Metrowerks's C/C++ compiler inferior? Or did Be hope to cash in on the Linux hysteria by using GCC? Credit is due to GCC right? Is there any open source or GPL OS out there that didn't get where it is by pimping GCC? FreeBSD? GCC? NetBSD? GCC? OpenBSD? GCC? Linux? GCC? Are there any commercial compilers that don't live without the support of their parents? Borland is dead, and open source? Watcomm is dead, and open source? What is left? Are we seeing a trend? Milk a product for what its worth, and then make it open source. Instead of the cathedral and the bazaar, it should be the garage sale and the free box. [RC] On Mon, 21 Aug 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > At 07:41 AM 8/21/2000, j mckitrick wrote: > > >i just read a comment that *nix doesn't even have good, intuitive debugger. > >all there really are are wrappers for ancient command line utils. this does > >not seem very state of the art compared with vc++ or softice. > > Unfortunately, the GPLed combination of GCC and gdb has killed any initiative > toward new and better compilers and debuggers on UNIX-like platforms. Even if > a product is obviously superior, it will have great difficulty competing with > something that's given away for free. Few developers have even tried, and those > who have (like Metrowerks) are not succeeding. > > This is a big problem with the GPL. It doesn't allow commercial vendors to > make INCREMENTAL improvements on what is available for free and be compensated > for doing so. Instead, they must undertake the daunting task of a ground-up > reimplementation. And when they're done, who will pay for their work? The > market is decimated or gone altogether. > > --Brett Glass > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 22 13:33:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop1.gte.net (smtppop1pub.gte.net [206.46.170.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3110637B43C for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 13:33:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from evrtwa1-ar4-146-005.dsl.gtei.net (evrtwa1-ar4-146-005.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.146.5]) by smtppop1.gte.net with ESMTP ; id PAA14512655 Tue, 22 Aug 2000 15:28:17 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 13:31:52 -0700 (PDT) From: The Clark Family X-Sender: res03db2@orthanc.dsl.gtei.net To: j mckitrick Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OSS, Sun, GPL, random ramblings In-Reply-To: <20000821103333.K4854@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sun keeps getting credit for Star Office. Just to set my memory straight, wasn't Star Office a standalone GPL project, even before Sun came along? And while I'm asking lame questions, what was Java called before the marketing people named it Java? [RC] On Mon, 21 Aug 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * j mckitrick [000821 06:04] wrote: > > > > i've been reading and thinking lately (uh oh :) > > > > Once there are OSS versions of software available, > > is it likely these will grow to dominate, and squash innovation? Sun is > > releasing OSS applications like staroffice and others. what will be the > > motivation to write a competing one from scratch? > > Becasue last I checked Staroffice was a hunk of junk. :) > > -Alfred > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 22 13:43:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from enterprise.sd73.bc.ca (enterprise.sd73.bc.ca [207.23.161.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5089A37B42C for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 13:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fcash ([207.23.161.235]) by enterprise.sd73.bc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA03573 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:03:09 -0700 From: "Freddie Cash" Organization: School District #73 To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 13:37:44 -0700 Subject: Re: OSS, Sun, GPL, random ramblings Reply-To: fcash@sd73.bc.ca Message-ID: <39A28228.15037.DFD817@localhost> References: <20000821103333.K4854@fw.wintelcom.net> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Sun keeps getting credit for Star Office. > Just to set my memory straight, wasn't Star Office a standalone GPL > project, even before Sun came along? Not sure about the GPL part, but it was free (as in beer) before SUN got ahold of it. Version 5 was the first free ver I believe (that's when I first heard of it) but previous version were payware. > And while I'm asking lame questions, what was Java called before the > marketing people named it Java? Something along the lines of Oak. Freddie Cash *-------------------------------------------------------* | fcash@sd73.bc.ca | WebCT Admin | | School District #73 | Apprentice Unix Guru | | Software Support Co-op | Soon-to-be Code Cruncher | *-------------------------------------------------------* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 22 14: 3:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E47737B43E for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:03:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e7ML3JM27397; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:03:19 -0700 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:03:19 -0700 From: Brooks Davis To: Freddie Cash Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OSS, Sun, GPL, random ramblings Message-ID: <20000822140319.A27342@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <20000821103333.K4854@fw.wintelcom.net> <39A28228.15037.DFD817@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <39A28228.15037.DFD817@localhost>; from fcash@sd73.bc.ca on Tue, Aug 22, 2000 at 01:37:44PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Aug 22, 2000 at 01:37:44PM -0700, Freddie Cash wrote: > > Sun keeps getting credit for Star Office. > > > Just to set my memory straight, wasn't Star Office a standalone GPL > > project, even before Sun came along? > > Not sure about the GPL part, but it was free (as in beer) before SUN > got ahold of it. Version 5 was the first free ver I believe (that's > when I first heard of it) but previous version were payware. Star Office 5 was free for personal use. It was not free for commercial use. Then Sun bought Star Division and made it free (as in beer) for everyone. -- Brooks -- Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 22 14:32:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from enterprise.sd73.bc.ca (enterprise.sd73.bc.ca [207.23.161.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 076E037B422 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:32:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fcash ([207.23.161.235]) by enterprise.sd73.bc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA04034; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:52:09 -0700 From: "Freddie Cash" Organization: School District #73 To: Brooks Davis Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:26:44 -0700 Subject: Re: OSS, Sun, GPL, random ramblings Reply-To: fcash@sd73.bc.ca Cc: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <39A28DA4.717.10CB710@localhost> In-reply-to: <20000822140319.A27342@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <39A28228.15037.DFD817@localhost>; from fcash@sd73.bc.ca on Tue, Aug 22, 2000 at 01:37:44PM -0700 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Just to set my memory straight, wasn't Star Office a standalone GPL > > > project, even before Sun came along? > > Not sure about the GPL part, but it was free (as in beer) before SUN > > got ahold of it. Version 5 was the first free ver I believe (that's > > when I first heard of it) but previous version were payware. > Star Office 5 was free for personal use. It was not free for commercial > use. Then Sun bought Star Division and made it free (as in beer) for > everyone. Yeah, that's right. Forgot about the personal/commercial thing, since I've yet to become a commercial entity. :-) Freddie Cash *-------------------------------------------------------* | fcash@sd73.bc.ca | WebCT Admin | | School District #73 | Apprentice Unix Guru | | Software Support Co-op | Soon-to-be Code Cruncher | *-------------------------------------------------------* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 22 14:59:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAA3B37B42C for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:59:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13RM50-0007m6-00; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:59:34 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA32762; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:59:30 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:59:30 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: The Clark Family Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OSS, Sun, GPL, random ramblings Message-ID: <20000822225930.A32732@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20000821103333.K4854@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from res03db2@gte.net on Tue, Aug 22, 2000 at 01:31:52PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Aug 22, 2000 at 01:31:52PM -0700, The Clark Family wrote: | | Sun keeps getting credit for Star Office. | | Just to set my memory straight, wasn't Star Office a standalone GPL | project, even before Sun came along? well, they are just going to enhance it and give it more publicity. it was written by a german company called star division. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 22 16: 5:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from klapaucius.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0D0D37B422; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 16:05:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by klapaucius.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 8FCD5239A9C; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 16:05:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 16:05:10 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: Bill Paul Cc: "Nicole Harrington." , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, unfurl@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FIngering freebsd.org Message-ID: <20000822160510.A46002@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <20000822170048.6DC1837B422@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000822170048.6DC1837B422@hub.freebsd.org>; from wpaul@FreeBSD.ORG on Tue, Aug 22, 2000 at 10:00:48AM -0700 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2000-08-22 10:00 -0700, Bill Paul wrote: > > > > Before I was able to finger a user at freebsd.org see if they > > were on etc. Now it seems that freebsd.org no longer has an IP and > > people.freebsd.org does not allow fingering. Will this be allowed > > again? > > The freebsd.org machines were moved recently to a new location at > Yahoo, and their DNS entries were updated. One change is that freebsd.org > is now just an MX record, where previously it was an alias for hub. > If you finger username@hub.freebsd.org, it should work as before. Is this happenstance or is it policy? Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter My reality check just bounced. mailto:gsutter@zer0.org http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 22 19:10:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B58A37B423 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 19:10:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA09185; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 20:09:34 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000822195636.04e46bd0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 20:09:30 -0600 To: The Clark Family From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000821110604.04ba5920@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:16 PM 8/22/2000, The Clark Family wrote: >Brett, > Now I'm curious. > > Did Be go with GCC over Metrowerks because it was cheaper, or >because Metrowerks was spending too much time on their Mac products? I was under the impression (correct me if I'm wrong) that Metrowerks' CodeWarrior IDE invoked GCC as a compiler. > Credit is due to GCC right? Is there any open source or GPL OS out >there that didn't get where it is by pimping GCC? > > FreeBSD? GCC? > NetBSD? GCC? > OpenBSD? GCC? > Linux? GCC? It's true; they all use GCC, and it's sad. And also dangerous. Any monoculture is. There should be a choice. > Are there any commercial compilers that don't live without the >support of their parents? Few. Microsoft does OK with their C/C++ because they own the Windows platform. And they do well with VB because it's tough to do Windows RAD on anything else except maybe Borland's Delphi. > Borland is dead, and open source? Not open source, but giving away their C/C++ compiler for Linux away for free. They still sell Delphi for Windows. They are doing a Delphi port for Linux, but it is unlikely to make them money. >Watcomm is dead, and open source? Watcom became Powersoft. They focus exclusively on the Windows platform now, because they do not believe that they can make money anywhere else. (Now that GCC has killed the market, they may be right!) Not open source, though, as far as I know. >What is left? A few Windows tool vendors plus the embedded systems guys. > Are we seeing a trend? Milk a product for what its worth, and then >make it open source. Not all of the people you mention above have made their compilers open source. But the market for C/C++ compilers for all platforms but Windows *has* been killed by GCC. > Instead of the cathedral and the bazaar, it should be the garage >sale and the free box. Actually, it has turned out that the FSF -- with its religion that commercial software is evil -- has turned out to be the "cathedral." And it's trying to destroy the bazaar (that is, the market for commercial software). --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 23 2:45:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picalon.gun.de (picalon.gun.de [192.109.159.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 302D137B42C; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 02:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by picalon.gun.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA29260; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 11:45:27 +0200 (MET DST) >Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA05856; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 11:45:12 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 11:45:12 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: jkh@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: New idea, FreeBSD installation from DVD ? Message-ID: <20000823114512.A4730@titan.klemm.gtn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE SMP X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi Jordan ! A few days ago I got SuSE Linux. Because of apsfilter I always receive two SuSE professional Linux packages whenever a new version comes out. This time they had 6 or 8 CD-ROM set _and_ *DVD* installation CD included. Since we haven't the installation routines ready to support a multi CD installation like SuSE does, where the installation routines tell you to insert CD 1..n depending on what stuff you selected to install, wouldn't it be the right time, to offer FreeBSD optionally or additionally on DVD ? Then we could easily get rid of decisions, what to put on the boot CD and what not. I think on a DVD media we would have the advantage to let the user choose every stuff he likes to have installed on his machine. Would also be a good chance to offer typical installation profiles like: GNOME Desktop, KDE Desktop or mass installation of everything. When installing everything, then everything should be defined somewhere since we have conflicting ports. I.e.: different inns, Netscapes, apaches, etc ... Andreas /// -- Andreas Klemm Powered by FreeBSD SMP Songs from our band >>64Bits<<............http://www.apsfilter.org/64bits.html My homepage................................ http://people.FreeBSD.ORG/~andreas Please note: Apsfilter got a NEW HOME................http://www.apsfilter.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 23 3:55:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EFD437B422 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 03:55:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA14341; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 12:53:39 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 12:53:39 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: The Clark Family Cc: j mckitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OSS, Sun, GPL, random ramblings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 22 Aug 2000, The Clark Family wrote: > > Sun keeps getting credit for Star Office. > > Just to set my memory straight, wasn't Star Office a standalone GPL > project, even before Sun came along? No. Staroffice was a closed source project that belong to a company that Sun bought. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 23 5:47:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (csmd2.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De [141.44.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C77437B422 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 05:47:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (jesse@knecht [141.44.21.3]) by csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA21978 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 14:47:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from jesse@localhost) by knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id OAA08124; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 14:46:42 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de: jesse set sender to jesse@cs.uni-magdeburg.de using -f To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: ddd (was: Gimme FreeBSD anyday!) References: <200008151718.e7FHIbb13082@mail.hiwaay.net> <20000821144137.D13975@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000821160518.B20036@strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk> <20000821180045.B258@parish> From: Roland Jesse In-Reply-To: Mark Ovens's message of "Mon, 21 Aug 2000 18:00:45 +0100" Date: 23 Aug 2000 14:46:42 +0200 Message-ID: <0vpun0uoul.fsf_-_@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens writes: > Or eminently more sensible is to install ddd(1) Whis is generally a good idea. But does it still puke on dynamically linked libraries? I was once trying to debug a dynamically linked binary and ddd simply ignored my $LD_LIBRARY_PATH and complained that it cannot find a lib...so. Roland To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 23 6:26:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34F2B37B43C for ; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 06:26:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA17018; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 15:26:06 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 15:26:06 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Roland Jesse Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ddd (was: Gimme FreeBSD anyday!) In-Reply-To: <0vpun0uoul.fsf_-_@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 23 Aug 2000, Roland Jesse wrote: > Mark Ovens writes: > > > Or eminently more sensible is to install ddd(1) > > Whis is generally a good idea. But does it still puke on dynamically > linked libraries? I was once trying to debug a dynamically linked > binary and ddd simply ignored my $LD_LIBRARY_PATH and complained that > it cannot find a lib...so. > Was it in a.out or elf world? > Roland > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 23 6:45:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (csmd2.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De [141.44.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1745D37B422 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 06:45:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (jesse@knecht [141.44.21.3]) by csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA23340 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 15:45:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from jesse@localhost) by knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id PAA08300 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 15:44:42 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 15:44:42 +0200 From: Roland Jesse To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ddd (was: Gimme FreeBSD anyday!) Message-ID: <20000823154442.A8253@knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de> References: <0vpun0uoul.fsf_-_@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee on Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 03:26:06PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Narvi wrote: > Was it in a.out or elf world? Elf. It was some months ago on a 4.x-stable machine. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 23 11:19: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89FFB37B422 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 11:19:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13Rf7C-000IwY-00; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 19:19:06 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA42845; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 19:19:05 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 19:19:05 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Narvi Cc: The Clark Family , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OSS, Sun, GPL, random ramblings Message-ID: <20000823191905.A42818@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee on Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 12:53:39PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 12:53:39PM +0200, Narvi wrote: | > Just to set my memory straight, wasn't Star Office a standalone GPL | > project, even before Sun came along? | | No. Staroffice was a closed source project that belong to a company that | Sun bought. star division of germany jcm -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 23 11:52: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3109737B423 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 11:52:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA16394; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 12:51:47 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000823125026.05818490@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 12:51:43 -0600 To: Roland Jesse , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: ddd (was: Gimme FreeBSD anyday!) In-Reply-To: <0vpun0uoul.fsf_-_@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> References: <200008151718.e7FHIbb13082@mail.hiwaay.net> <20000821144137.D13975@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000821160518.B20036@strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk> <20000821180045.B258@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I tried it recently, and it segfaulted repeatedly during routine operations. I gave up and went back to my own macros for gdb. I really wish I could avoid using GPLed tools! It is a shame that there appears to be no other source level debugger for FreeBSD. --Brett At 06:46 AM 8/23/2000, Roland Jesse wrote: >Mark Ovens writes: > >> Or eminently more sensible is to install ddd(1) > >Whis is generally a good idea. But does it still puke on dynamically >linked libraries? I was once trying to debug a dynamically linked >binary and ddd simply ignored my $LD_LIBRARY_PATH and complained that >it cannot find a lib...so. > > Roland > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 23 12:13: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF01637B422 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 12:12:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA22183; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 21:11:35 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 21:11:34 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: j mckitrick Cc: The Clark Family , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OSS, Sun, GPL, random ramblings In-Reply-To: <20000823191905.A42818@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 23 Aug 2000, j mckitrick wrote: > On Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 12:53:39PM +0200, Narvi wrote: > | > Just to set my memory straight, wasn't Star Office a standalone GPL > | > project, even before Sun came along? > | > | No. Staroffice was a closed source project that belong to a company that > | Sun bought. > > star division of germany > Precisely. While Staroffice was 'free for private use', it was sufficently confusingly worded that I still don't know if I complied with it 8-( IMHO that StarOffice is for the present in Sun's hands and what it is doing with it is a very positive thing. Including for the *BSD. > > jcm > -- > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 23 12:27: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE33B37B424 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 12:26:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA16708; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 13:25:24 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000823132044.057d1ba0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 13:25:20 -0600 To: Tani Hosokawa , j mckitrick From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL v. BSD and fragmentation Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000822063012.F10643@riverstyx.net> References: <20000822141843.C27208@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000822141843.C27208@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:30 AM 8/22/2000, Tani Hosokawa wrote: >Congratulations. Now you understand the GPL philosophy -- intellectual >property in the form of software has no intrinsic value beyond the time >it took to create it. Richard Stallman wants intellectual property to have no value AT ALL. He frequently states, publicly, that he believes the concept of intellectual property to be "evil" and seeks to undermine it at every turn. For example, he states that a composer of music should be able to make money only by being paid to perform. (Of course, the flaw in this is that the composer is not necessarily a performer. What's more, a musician is unlikely to be able to make a reasonable living solely by being paid to play.) > Either believe that and use the GPL, or don't, >and use some other license. The problem is that the GPL is coercive. More and more, it is taking over and destroying markets, leaving no choice other than GPLed software. >You do, however, have the right to continue to modify the original work >that came along before the GPL and sell that as a commercial product. But you won't be able to. People will go for what's GPLed and therefore free of cost to them so long as it's "good enough." What's more, the GPL zealots will copy your value added and put it in the GPLed version. You're out of business. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 23 12:41:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB09A37B42C for ; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 12:41:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13RgPF-0006kq-00; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 20:41:49 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA43787; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 20:41:49 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 20:41:49 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Brett Glass Cc: Tani Hosokawa , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL v. BSD and fragmentation Message-ID: <20000823204149.A43608@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20000822141843.C27208@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000822141843.C27208@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000822063012.F10643@riverstyx.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20000823132044.057d1ba0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000823132044.057d1ba0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 01:25:20PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org here is what i don't get about the GPL. if a mechanical engineer works for 1 year on a project, he might only be able to sell it for 5,000 US dollars. but he will have to sell far more than 1 unit to recover his costs, let alone make a profit. once a programmer writes or enhances a GPL program, he or she might sell only one copy before it becomes open source, and therefore free. maybe the industry will wise up and realize you get what you pay for, and commercial software has far better support in general. jcm -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 23 14: 7: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15F9537B440 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 14:06:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA17461; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 15:05:09 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000823150046.04750f00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 15:04:51 -0600 To: j mckitrick From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL v. BSD and fragmentation Cc: Tani Hosokawa , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000823204149.A43608@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000823132044.057d1ba0@localhost> <20000822141843.C27208@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000822141843.C27208@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000822063012.F10643@riverstyx.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20000823132044.057d1ba0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:41 PM 8/23/2000, j mckitrick wrote: >here is what i don't get about the GPL. if a mechanical engineer works for >1 year on a project, he might only be able to sell it for 5,000 US dollars. >but he will have to sell far more than 1 unit to recover his costs, let >alone make a profit. That's right. Fortunately, his design is valuable intellectual property, and so he can make ends meet by selling enough of what he's designed to make a profit. > once a programmer writes or enhances a GPL program, he >or she might sell only one copy At the cost of the copy, not at the cost of doing the work. Even if he or she is working as a consultant, all the programmer will get (and this is the best case!) is an hourly wage for the time spent on the code. > before it becomes open source, and therefore >free. maybe the industry will wise up and realize you get what you pay for, >and commercial software has far better support in general. Sometimes it does; sometimes it does not. The point is that there should be a choice. The stated goal of the GPL is to eliminate choice. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 23 14:35:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (winston.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.27.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F31F537B424; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 14:35:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA13664; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 14:34:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com) To: Andreas Klemm Cc: jkh@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New idea, FreeBSD installation from DVD ? In-Reply-To: Message from Andreas Klemm of "Wed, 23 Aug 2000 11:45:12 +0200." <20000823114512.A4730@titan.klemm.gtn.com> Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 14:34:53 -0700 Message-ID: <13660.967066493@winston.osd.bsdi.com> From: Jordan Hubbard Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Since we haven't the installation routines ready to support a multi CD > installation like SuSE does, where the installation routines tell you > to insert CD 1..n depending on what stuff you selected to install, > wouldn't it be the right time, to offer FreeBSD optionally or > additionally on DVD ? There have been at least 2 different threads about FreeBSD on DVD; check the message archives for more details. The summary version is that I can't get them mastered. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 23 20:19:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from netplex.com.au (adsl-63-207-30-186.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.207.30.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D49B37B422; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 20:19:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netplex.com.au (peter@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by netplex.com.au (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id e7O3JfG68289; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 20:19:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@netplex.com.au) Message-Id: <200008240319.e7O3JfG68289@netplex.com.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Gregory Sutter Cc: Bill Paul , "Nicole Harrington." , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, unfurl@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FIngering freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20000822160510.A46002@klapaucius.zer0.org> Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 20:19:41 -0700 From: Peter Wemm Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gregory Sutter wrote: > On 2000-08-22 10:00 -0700, Bill Paul wrote: > > > > > > Before I was able to finger a user at freebsd.org see if they > > > were on etc. Now it seems that freebsd.org no longer has an IP and > > > people.freebsd.org does not allow fingering. Will this be allowed > > > again? > > > > The freebsd.org machines were moved recently to a new location at > > Yahoo, and their DNS entries were updated. One change is that freebsd.org > > is now just an MX record, where previously it was an alias for hub. > > If you finger username@hub.freebsd.org, it should work as before. > > Is this happenstance or is it policy? It was a quick hack to fix the problem of getting the automatic scripts that dynamically generate the reverse maps to work by removing the ambiguous A record. The way it was to start with, 216.136.204.18 was being reverse mapped into 'freebsd.org' rather than 'hub.freebsd.org'. I will fix this tomorrow once I have gathered the courage to edit the scripts that do this magic and special-case it. > Greg Cheers, -Peter -- Peter Wemm - peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com; peter@netplex.com.au "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 23 23: 3: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picalon.gun.de (picalon.gun.de [192.109.159.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FBFC37B424; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 23:02:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by picalon.gun.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA03516; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 08:02:33 +0200 (MET DST) >Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA38350; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 07:42:47 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 07:42:47 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: jkh@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New idea, FreeBSD installation from DVD ? Message-ID: <20000824074247.A37590@titan.klemm.gtn.com> References: <13660.967066493@winston.osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <13660.967066493@winston.osd.bsdi.com>; from jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com on Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 02:34:53PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE SMP X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 02:34:53PM -0700, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > Since we haven't the installation routines ready to support a multi CD > > installation like SuSE does, where the installation routines tell you > > to insert CD 1..n depending on what stuff you selected to install, > > wouldn't it be the right time, to offer FreeBSD optionally or > > additionally on DVD ? > > There have been at least 2 different threads about FreeBSD on DVD; > check the message archives for more details. The summary version is > that I can't get them mastered. O.k., no problem, just an idea. -- Andreas Klemm Powered by FreeBSD SMP Songs from our band >>64Bits<<............http://www.apsfilter.org/64bits.html My homepage................................ http://people.FreeBSD.ORG/~andreas Please note: Apsfilter got a NEW HOME................http://www.apsfilter.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 24 5: 8:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6338437B424 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 05:08:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13Rvnt-0007Z7-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:08:17 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA51617 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:08:17 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:08:17 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: microsoft's wonderful new licensing scheme Message-ID: <20000824130817.B51338@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org you guys gotta read this.... http://www.32bitsonline.com/article.php3?file=issues/200008/juggernaut&page=1 jcm -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 24 12:59:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3A4537B422 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 12:59:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA19455; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 12:57:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAARZaqXL; Thu Aug 24 12:57:11 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA13209; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 12:59:11 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200008241959.MAA13209@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Sun's web site To: tms2@mail.ptd.net (Thomas M. Sommers) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 19:59:11 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <399E0F70.ACD130B0@mail.ptd.net> from "Thomas M. Sommers" at Aug 19, 2000 12:39:12 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Management has a fiduciary duty to the shareholders. If they give > > > away their source, and some other company makes a killing with it, > > > management has breached that duty. > > > > Through malfeasance, by ignoring the market for the code themselves. > > Not necessarily malfeasance. They could simply be in error about the > potential profit to be had from the source. Malfeasance := wrongdoing or misconduct Ignorance is no excuse: misconduct is misconduct. Officers of corporations are being more and more frequently sued (and losing) as a result of blatantly bad decisions on their part due to a misrepresentation of their competence to make fiduciary decisions. > > > But if they use the GPL, it is very unlikely that any other > > > company will make that killing, and management will be in the clear. > > > > No. They will still be guilty of malfeasance. But they will also > > be guilty of criminal fraud, in that they covered up their malfeasance. > > Fraud means obtaining title to property by false pretences; it has > nothing to do with the hypothetical under discussion. Cover up implies > something done after an act to hide it; that also has nothing to do with > the hypothetical. Fraud := intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right I think the "legal right" part of this applies. But if not, the second definition of the word certainly does: Fraud := an act of deceiving or misrepresenting Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 24 13: 0:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 964D737B423 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:00:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA20321; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:00:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA1yaGqN; Thu Aug 24 12:59:54 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA13340; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:00:17 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200008242000.NAA13340@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Sun's web site To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 20:00:16 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), tms2@mail.ptd.net (Thomas M. Sommers), brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000819112135.A16479@physics.iisc.ernet.in> from "Rahul Siddharthan" at Aug 19, 2000 11:21:35 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Terry Lambert said on Aug 19, 2000 at 01:31:48: > > > If they are giving away their source, they probably aren't planning on > > > making much of a profit from it any more. If they use the GPL, they can > > > be pretty sure that no one else will make one, either. > > > > If I have a beer, and I'm not going to drink it, if I piss in it, > > I can be pretty sure no one will drink it, either. > > A totally ridiculous and irrelevant analogy, and exactly what I meant > with my licensing wars comment earlier. A more hardline commercial > developer may argue that BSD-licensing code is "pissing in it" because > people will always prefer to use that instead of a commercial > equivalent. (eg, SSH versus OpenSSH -- it's fairly clear that it was > the existence of OpenSSH which forced the SSH people to change their > licensing policy a few days ago.) You don't think the expiration of the remaining RSA patent in September had anything to do with it? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 24 13:57:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9764137B423 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:57:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA09728; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:55:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAndaiZs; Thu Aug 24 13:55:14 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA15423; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:57:24 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200008242057.NAA15423@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: OSS, Sun, GPL, random ramblings To: jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org (j mckitrick) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 20:57:23 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000821140419.B13975@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> from "j mckitrick" at Aug 21, 2000 02:04:20 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > i've been reading and thinking lately (uh oh :) > > Once there are OSS versions of software available, is it > likely these will grow to dominate, and squash innovation? > Sun is releasing OSS applications like staroffice and others. > what will be the motivation to write a competing one from scratch? Money. It is becoming a common tactic to define standards with a high enough complexity that OSS implementing the standard is simply so hard to write that no one ever does. Using this tactic, one can imagine all sorts of future work for which people will continue to pay money. Likewise, most OSS is poorly packaged; a lot of it uses the GNU "configure" and "autoconf" and "automake" and similar tools. These tools are provably vastly inferior to "imake" and "xmkmf", out of project Athena. The GNU tools were ncessitated by the inability to tell from one day to the next where the OSS OS's API's were going to be in Linux, and, to a leser extent, the BSD family. Customers want something that works, not something that mostly works, sort of works, or might work with some tweaking. Productization is not only about packaging. Once built from scratch, unless the full validation test suite is included, good luck getting an anser other than "well, it works for me; have you tried running it on mumblety-frotz version of Linux -- the one from last Tuesday, not the one from the day before with the broken libwhatzit?". Even with a full validation suite included, how full is such a suite, really? I have yet to see one written in TET or ETET. Crossing that barrier, we have documentation. One of the most intriguing, yet piss-poorly documented OSS projects is ZOPE. I would really have liked to use it for a project, but of course I had to go with PHP instead; much less interesting, much higher overhead (it's going to cost me ~$36,000 in extra hardware), but rather well documented (so it's possible for people to document their code well -- just don't expect it from any but the HTML geeks, who mostly write text or a close relative for their living. Then we have installation. Most OSS operating systems really suck at layered software installation. None of them has reached even the level of SVR4 of over half a decade ago, let alone Windows. I won't even try to compare them to that pinnacle of layered software installations of almost two decades ago, VMS. OK... now say you have it installed, and it's documented, and it didn't try to kill you because it was badly packaged. How do you adminstrate it? Does the administration fit into a common administrative framework across all the places you want to install it? Feel free to assume homogenous machines. The answer is "no". Unlike the products from commercial companies, on commercial OSs, each and every OSS product feels the need to invent the "perfect" adminstrative UI, convinced that everyone who came before them either "didn't get it quite right" or "didn't know what the hell they were doing". Forget for a minute that most engineers are not cognitive psychologits, and that most of them are not HCI (Human-Computer Interaction" specialist, and the aren't graphic artists, and they aren't UI designers. One would think that it was not rocket science to design a common navigation model, and then stick with it, come hell or high water. That's not to say that professionals don't screw up, either. I occasionally run Lotus Notes. Like most groupware, it's in the company because it was mandated by executive order. People really hate the hell out of groupware, but executives don't care about likes and dislikes as much as they care about the IT costs associated with stranding an IT person in the middle of a desert of differeing applications, when it comes time for them to answer the phone to support an internal user. So I run Notes, and pick up my corporate email late on Friday afternoon, whether I need to or not (this last because I'm trying to show that I'm a good corporate citizen). Notes has a lot of UI idiocy, but the worst offender of all is the "close window" icon on the "replication" window, which, if you click it, does nothing, because it should have been grayed out, but wasn't. The point of the above rant being that, every time you screw up, you throw all of the users prior training out the window. The user wants all their applciations to have the same look and feel, the same navigation model, the same location for common menus, the same left or right, top or bottom, for scroll bars, the same action of the scrollbar thum in terms of its size showing, relative to the size of the region in which it moves, how much scrollable area is being hidden, the same location for the up and down arrow buttons, the same action when you click between the thumb and the edge of the region in which it moves ... etc. etc.. In other words, users don't want to be thrown into a different random environment each time they start a different application. I won't even go on about the morons who think that CD players controls should look like CD players, or Internet telephony applications like cell phones... "Yes, but... what about my creativity?" whines the earstwhile UI ``genius'' (finger-quotes intentional). Screw it. And if you don't like that: Screw you. The program you are writing is not for you. It's for your user. And your user's company has paid, on average, $2,500 a seat training their employees how to work their desktop. They don't like paying more just so you can do something you think is creative, but which in reality is just going to be confusing to the people who have to use it, and have never seen it or anything like it before. Users want a nice, bland environment. There is a reason that all of the little tabbed dialogs in the Windows control panel look alike, no matter which one of them you run. And even if users wanted something else, the boss is not going to pay a hidden per user cost to acquire it for them. So the bottom line is that there is more to commercial software than the quality of the algorithms, or whatever else. It's a gestalt called productization. And OSS is still very far from achieving that gestalt. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 24 16:11:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E770437B423 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 16:11:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13S69e-000J7W-00; Fri, 25 Aug 2000 00:11:26 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA58673; Fri, 25 Aug 2000 00:11:25 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 00:11:25 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OSS, Sun, GPL, random ramblings Message-ID: <20000825001125.A58486@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20000821140419.B13975@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200008242057.NAA15423@usr06.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200008242057.NAA15423@usr06.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Thu, Aug 24, 2000 at 08:57:23PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Fascinating rant, Terry. :) A few questions for you and anyone else who wants to contribute. I've heard a lot of people rave about VMS. What was so great about it? Did it run in graphic or console mode? I heard it had fantastic security. Also, what is so advanced about SYSV, and why can't those strengths be applied to BSD? Since Linux is based on SYSV, where did it go wrong, besides the obvious answer, fragmentation? And after all you said, it seems even FreeBSD doesn't measure up. Just what OS is your favorite now, and what OS do you personally use and use at work? ;-) jcm -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 24 17:21:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38C6137B424 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:21:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA01124; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 18:19:50 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000824180838.00e0c750@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 18:19:31 -0600 To: j mckitrick , Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: OSS, Sun, GPL, random ramblings Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000825001125.A58486@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <200008242057.NAA15423@usr06.primenet.com> <20000821140419.B13975@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200008242057.NAA15423@usr06.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:11 PM 8/24/2000, j mckitrick wrote: >I've heard a lot of people rave about VMS. What was so great about it? It was highly optimized for transaction processing and database work, which made it an ideal "back office" OS. It had a more consistent design philosophy and more consistent conventions than UNIX. Some folks didn't like its "corporate" feel and its orientation toward screen-oriented rather than character-oriented applications, but it did many things very well. >Also, what is so advanced about SYSV, and why can't those strengths be >applied to BSD? Since Linux is based on SYSV, where did it go wrong, >besides the obvious answer, fragmentation? Most people believe that AT&T's purpose in creating System V was to wrest control of UNIX's standards and conventions away from CSRG and BSD, which had de facto control of them before divestiture. Many of the changes made in System V were motivated by a desire not to improve the OS but to make it different from, and annoyingly incompatible with, classic BSD UNIX. While System V did erase a few inconsistencies that had crept into BSD (e.g. conventions for command line arguments), it left many in place and added more quirks of its own. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 24 17:35:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0080E37B422 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:35:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA22100; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:35:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAkHaWWQ; Thu Aug 24 17:34:53 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA27771; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:35:14 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200008250035.RAA27771@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! To: res03db2@gte.net (The Clark Family) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 00:35:14 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org (j mckitrick), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "The Clark Family" at Aug 22, 2000 01:03:50 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Not all UNIX is open source or GPL. I would expect to find that > fancier debugging tools are available, in commercial toolsets on UNIX. I used to use BattleMap; it's now been renamed since the company was sold, but it's still available. It generate test cases by doing branch path analysis of the code. This meant that the test code had 100% code coverage. 100%. BattleMap cost us $50,000 per workstation back in the early 90's. I have also seen a commercial network management and configuration design tool. That tool cost $250,000 for a 1 year license for one machine. You paid for the graph theory and the patents on the code. So yes, such tools exist. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 24 17:43:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7420037B42C; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:43:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id RAA68149; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:43:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:43:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sun's web site In-Reply-To: <200008242000.NAA13340@usr06.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 24 Aug 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > You don't think the expiration of the remaining RSA patent in > September had anything to do with it? If that were true, why was it done now, while the patent is still in effect, and why only for platforms for which OpenSSH is in common use and gaining significant ground over their product? Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 24 17:47:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop3.gte.net (smtppop3pub.gte.net [206.46.170.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E00137B423 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:47:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from evrtwa1-ar4-146-005.dsl.gtei.net (evrtwa1-ar4-146-005.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.146.5]) by smtppop3.gte.net with ESMTP ; id TAA15742358 Thu, 24 Aug 2000 19:41:31 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:45:22 -0700 (PDT) From: The Clark Family X-Sender: res03db2@orthanc.dsl.gtei.net To: j mckitrick Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OSS, Sun, GPL, random ramblings In-Reply-To: <20000825001125.A58486@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rant: My biggest complaint with current crop of OS, is that they know nothing of their own limits. A system should know why it crashed. The OS should keep track of which applications are buggy, not me. If an errant program doesn't return all its memory, give it an F. That and there is no separation of church and state. Who wants a car that you drive from the engine bay? Half the time I feel like I'm hanging onto the steering box with a pair of vise grips, and viewing the road between my feet. Look out for that exhaust manifold. And how about some absolute revision control. If I install A and then B, and later C, why can't I remove A without breaking anything. Whatever happened to the *true* dynamic linked library? Answers: VMS sounds like it was allowed to mature. One thing that no OS has today, is time to mature. Features are added so fast, that quality has a hard time catching up. Home: FreeBSD for anything important, and to learn on. W2k for dual processor support, and to stay marketable. BeOS for dual processor support, and because I miss the Amiga. W98 for my wife and son. (They don't need much.) Work: AIX because it works. Solaris because it will take a long time to get rid of it all. W98 because Notes and Office run on it. [RC] On Fri, 25 Aug 2000, j mckitrick wrote: > > Fascinating rant, Terry. :) > > A few questions for you and anyone else who wants to contribute. > > I've heard a lot of people rave about VMS. What was so great about it? Did > it run in graphic or console mode? I heard it had fantastic security. > > Also, what is so advanced about SYSV, and why can't those strengths be > applied to BSD? Since Linux is based on SYSV, where did it go wrong, > besides the obvious answer, fragmentation? > > And after all you said, it seems even FreeBSD doesn't measure up. > Just what OS is your favorite now, and what OS do you personally use and use > at work? ;-) > > jcm > -- > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 24 18: 3:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 792AD37B424 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 18:03:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13S7uH-000IwW-00; Fri, 25 Aug 2000 02:03:41 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA59627; Fri, 25 Aug 2000 02:03:41 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 02:03:41 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Terry Lambert Cc: The Clark Family , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! Message-ID: <20000825020341.A59386@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <200008250035.RAA27771@usr01.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200008250035.RAA27771@usr01.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 12:35:14AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 12:35:14AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: | > Not all UNIX is open source or GPL. I would expect to find that | > fancier debugging tools are available, in commercial toolsets on UNIX. | BattleMap cost us $50,000 per workstation back in the early 90's. | | I have also seen a commercial network management and configuration | design tool. That tool cost $250,000 for a 1 year license for one | machine. You paid for the graph theory and the patents on the code. | | So yes, such tools exist. 1. What software companies have the resources for such a tool? 2. What kind of progs do they write? Oil and gas? 3. Why doesn't M$ use such a tool to improve code quality? They of all people have the funds. jcm -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 24 20:12: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iisc.ernet.in (iisc.ernet.in [144.16.64.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B453D37B423 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 20:12:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from physics.iisc.ernet.in (IDENT:rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.115]) by iisc.ernet.in (8.9.2/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA04435; Fri, 25 Aug 2000 08:42:35 +0530 (IST) Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by physics.iisc.ernet.in (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA08383; Fri, 25 Aug 2000 08:46:55 +0530 Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 08:46:55 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Thomas M. Sommers" , Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sun's web site Message-ID: <20000825084655.A8339@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , "Thomas M. Sommers" , Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000819112135.A16479@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <200008242000.NAA13340@usr06.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200008242000.NAA13340@usr06.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Thu, Aug 24, 2000 at 08:00:16PM +0000 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.5-15 i686 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Aug 24, 2000 at 20:00:16: > > Terry Lambert said on Aug 19, 2000 at 01:31:48: > > > > If they are giving away their source, they probably aren't planning on > > > > making much of a profit from it any more. If they use the GPL, they can > > > > be pretty sure that no one else will make one, either. > > > > > > If I have a beer, and I'm not going to drink it, if I piss in it, > > > I can be pretty sure no one will drink it, either. > > > > A totally ridiculous and irrelevant analogy, and exactly what I meant > > with my licensing wars comment earlier. A more hardline commercial > > developer may argue that BSD-licensing code is "pissing in it" because > > people will always prefer to use that instead of a commercial > > equivalent. (eg, SSH versus OpenSSH -- it's fairly clear that it was > > the existence of OpenSSH which forced the SSH people to change their > > licensing policy a few days ago.) > > You don't think the expiration of the remaining RSA patent in > September had anything to do with it? Nope. Because SSH2 doesn't use RSA. Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 24 22:14:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail2.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A1C0837B43E for ; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 22:14:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 12962 invoked from network); 25 Aug 2000 05:14:23 -0000 Received: from du03.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.3) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 25 Aug 2000 05:14:23 -0000 Message-ID: <39A60095.FFBCF09@mail.ptd.net> Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 01:13:57 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sun's web site References: <200008241959.MAA13209@usr06.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > Management has a fiduciary duty to the shareholders. If they give > > > > away their source, and some other company makes a killing with it, > > > > management has breached that duty. > > > > > > Through malfeasance, by ignoring the market for the code themselves. > > > > Not necessarily malfeasance. They could simply be in error about the > > potential profit to be had from the source. > > Malfeasance := wrongdoing or misconduct > > Ignorance is no excuse: misconduct is misconduct. The law distingiushes between malfeasance and misfeasance. > Officers of > corporations are being more and more frequently sued (and losing) > as a result of blatantly bad decisions on their part due to a > misrepresentation of their competence to make fiduciary decisions. That was my point (although it has nothing to do with misrepresenting competence). If you want to release source, doing so under the GPL (instead of a BSD-like license) will reduce the chance of a successful suit against you, because it will be harder to prove that you gave away a potentially large profit. > > > > But if they use the GPL, it is very unlikely that any other > > > > company will make that killing, and management will be in the clear. > > > > > > No. They will still be guilty of malfeasance. But they will also > > > be guilty of criminal fraud, in that they covered up their malfeasance. > > > > Fraud means obtaining title to property by false pretences; it has > > nothing to do with the hypothetical under discussion. Cover up implies > > something done after an act to hide it; that also has nothing to do with > > the hypothetical. > > Fraud := intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another > to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right Generally, if you legally have posession of something, but convert it to your own use, it is embezzlement; if you illegally take possession it is theft; if you take title by means of deception it is fraud. > I think the "legal right" part of this applies. But if not, the > second definition of the word certainly does: > > Fraud := an act of deceiving or misrepresenting This is not the legal definition. None of this applies to the case of a bad decision by corporate managers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 24 22:20:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail2.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8C71A37B423 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 22:20:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 25365 invoked from network); 25 Aug 2000 05:20:33 -0000 Received: from du03.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.3) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 25 Aug 2000 05:20:33 -0000 Message-ID: <39A60207.4F8C6829@mail.ptd.net> Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 01:20:07 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The GPL is really the PPL (Was: Sun's web site) References: <20000816221119.B7276@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.2.7.2.20000817232139.04cf0840@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000818064620.00dbc670@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000819181556.04cf48c0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 03:16 PM 8/19/2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > > >> > If they use the GPL, they can > >> >be pretty sure that no one else will make one, either. Management has a > >> >fiduciary duty to the shareholders. If they give away their source, and > >> >some other company makes a killing with it, > >> > >> Then they are hurt not one bit. > > > >A greedy shyster will argue that management breached its duty because it > >should have know that a killing could be made, but instead gave away the > >ability to make it. > > That's actually a legitmate argument, and not that of a shyster by > any means. In any event,the horse is out of the barn at that point; > the hurt has already happened. If someone DOES make a killing with > the softare, it does not hurt the company any more than it has > already been hurt by its own foolishness. My point was that if another company uses the source to make a profit, that is good evidence that the original company could have made a profit, too, and that management erred. On the other hand, if no other company can make a profit, it will be harder to prove an error of judgment by management. > >> Not true. The company is undermining its ENTIRE INDUSTRY by using the > >> GPL. It's sort of like saying, "Yes, I killed myself, but at least I > >> hurt my competitor a little." > > > >But they can't get sued for that. > > Yes, actually, they can. It falls under many states' "Unfair business > practices" statutes. And if the GPLed software monopolizes the market > (as it has the market for UNIX C compilers), antitrust law may kick > in. I was talking about stockholder derivative suits. Anyway, a company could be liable for the actions you mentioned even if it put its source in the public domain, or used a BSD license. That problem has nothing to do with the GPL. > >I understand your dislike of the GPL, and even agree with it up to a > >point (really, not as in "Up to a point, Lord Copper."). But that is > >irrelevant to the point I was trying to make. > > Your point, as I recall, was that you thought the PPL was appealing > to some foolish people within corporations because they have been led > to believe that the "poison pill" might hobble competitors. I disagree. > Any company that produces software is hurting itself the most when it > releases PPLed code. That is not exactly my point. I certainly did not say anyone was foolish. I also did not say that the intent was to hobble competitors, but rather not to give a valuable gift to competitors. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 25 0: 4:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E8AA37B424 for ; Fri, 25 Aug 2000 00:04:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA04241; Fri, 25 Aug 2000 01:03:45 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000825010057.04c7fd90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 01:03:43 -0600 To: "Thomas M. Sommers" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The GPL is really the PPL (Was: Sun's web site) Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <39A60207.4F8C6829@mail.ptd.net> References: <20000816221119.B7276@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.2.7.2.20000817232139.04cf0840@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000818064620.00dbc670@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000819181556.04cf48c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:20 PM 8/24/2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: >My point was that if another company uses the source to make a profit, >that is good evidence that the original company could have made a >profit, too, and that management erred. On the other hand, if no other >company can make a profit, it will be harder to prove an error of >judgment by management. In other words, the PHBs made an error either way.... It's just a question of whether or not it becomes embarrasingly obvious. ;-) >I was talking about stockholder derivative suits. Anyway, a company >could be liable for the actions you mentioned even if it put its source >in the public domain, or used a BSD license. That problem has nothing >to do with the GPL. True. But if they GPL it, it's even worse. The code becomes a weapon against them and all other developers. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 25 0:50:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smart.visp-europe.psi.com (smart.visp-europe.psi.com [212.222.105.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BF9E37B42C for ; Fri, 25 Aug 2000 00:50:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ip198.berlin64.pub-ip.de.psi.net ([154.15.64.198] helo=goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de) by smart.visp-europe.psi.com with esmtp (Exim 3.14 #1) id 13SEFx-0003ij-00; Fri, 25 Aug 2000 09:50:30 +0200 Received: by goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de (Postfix, from userid 100) id 58F4C226B; Fri, 25 Aug 2000 09:50:21 +0200 (CEST) To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OSS, Sun, GPL, random ramblings References: <200008242057.NAA15423@usr06.primenet.com> From: Juergen Nickelsen Date: 25 Aug 2000 09:50:21 +0200 In-Reply-To: Terry Lambert's message of "Thu, 24 Aug 2000 20:57:23 +0000 (GMT)" Message-ID: Lines: 14 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.45/XEmacs 21.1 - "Canyonlands" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes on freebsd-chat: > I won't even go on about the morons who think that CD players > controls should look like CD players, or Internet telephony > applications like cell phones... I could not agree more. The Quicktime player has even hit the Interface Hall of Shame, and for good reason. Really a shame for Apple, who used to be good in well-designed and consistent UIs. -- Juergen Nickelsen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 25 11: 5:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from uberhacker.org (uberhacker.org [207.229.137.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0A4EC37B424 for ; Fri, 25 Aug 2000 11:05:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 91121 invoked from network); 25 Aug 2000 18:05:50 -0000 Received: from ip-12-20-29-241.hqglobal.net (HELO pdswin1) (12.20.29.241) by uberhacker.org with SMTP; 25 Aug 2000 18:05:50 -0000 Message-ID: <011901c00ebf$1a25c840$c901050a@uberhacker.org> From: "Paul D. Schmidt" To: Subject: Anyone have an expect script to work with dump/chio? Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 14:05:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone happen to know if there is an expect script out there (or some other script) that will change tapes via chio when dump(1) asks for another one? I realize AMANDA is a popular backup tool, but since my backup images are larger than my tapes (4/8GB DDS-2) it is not possible to use it yet. I'm not concerned with elegancy, so I am willing to do a full level 0 dump as often as needed (incrementals aren't top priority, but would be nice). I just want something I can use to start the backup, and walk away as it uses tapes from the 12-tape autoloader that I have. Just wanted to see if this already exists before I re-invent the wheel. Also, if anyone has any other suggestions for backup solutions that would work, I'm all ears :) Thanks, -Paul -- Paul D. Schmidt pds@uberhacker.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 25 12:26:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from david.siemens.de (david.siemens.de [192.35.17.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B034737B422 for ; Fri, 25 Aug 2000 12:26:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-Sender-Is: andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de (at relayer david.siemens.de) Received: from mail2.siemens.de (mail2.siemens.de [139.25.208.11]) by david.siemens.de (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e7PJQIU06872; Fri, 25 Aug 2000 21:26:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from curry.mchp.siemens.de (curry.mchp.siemens.de [139.25.42.7]) by mail2.siemens.de (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e7PJQHq23920; Fri, 25 Aug 2000 21:26:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from localhost) by curry.mchp.siemens.de (8.10.2/8.10.2) id e7PJQHM31789; Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 21:26:17 +0200 From: Andre Albsmeier To: "Paul D. Schmidt" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anyone have an expect script to work with dump/chio? Message-ID: <20000825212617.A42432@curry.mchp.siemens.de> References: <011901c00ebf$1a25c840$c901050a@uberhacker.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <011901c00ebf$1a25c840$c901050a@uberhacker.org>; from pds@uberhacker.org on Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 02:05:49PM -0400 X-Echelon: BND CIA NSA Mossad KGB MI6 IRA detonator nuclear assault strike Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 25-Aug-2000 at 14:05:49 -0400, Paul D. Schmidt wrote: > Anyone happen to know if there is an expect script out there (or some other > script) that will change tapes via chio when dump(1) asks for another one? > I realize AMANDA is a popular backup tool, but since my backup images are > larger than my tapes (4/8GB DDS-2) it is not possible to use it yet. I'm > not concerned with elegancy, so I am willing to do a full level 0 dump as > often as needed (incrementals aren't top priority, but would be nice). I > just want something I can use to start the backup, and walk away as it uses > tapes from the 12-tape autoloader that I have. > > Just wanted to see if this already exists before I re-invent the wheel. > Also, if anyone has any other suggestions for backup solutions that would > work, I'm all ears :) I am using tar (GNU tar) 1.13.17 with the -L and -F options on a DLT 4700 autoloader. Works great. -Andre To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 26 13:15:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from myristaja.eenet.ee (myristaja.EENet.ee [193.40.0.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52C3137B424 for ; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 13:15:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (oolberg@localhost) by myristaja.eenet.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA98741 for ; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 22:15:09 +0200 (EET) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 22:15:09 +0200 (EET) From: Imre Oolberg To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: IP Filter 3.4.9 and FreeBSD r. 4.0 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hallo, i am having problem with . The logging gives apparently random numbers, like this: bash# ipmon 26/08/2000 19:31:21.921566 ed0 @0:0 L 254.1.50.235 -> 192.168.1.10 PR ipencap len 0 (0) frag 0@672 26/08/2000 19:31:22.931046 ed0 @0:0 L 255.1.52.207 -> 192.168.2.10 PR igmp len 0 (49203) frag 49203@672 26/08/2000 19:31:22.931082 vx0 @0:0 L 254.1.52.207 -> 192.168.2.10 PR igmp len 0 (0) frag 0@672 26/08/2000 19:31:22.931526 vx0 @0:0 L 255.1.50.234 -> 192.168.1.10 P espesially the L 254.1.50.235 column. I believe i did everything by the book and more :) In fact, the filtering itselt seems to work, just the little filtering thing. Can someone confirm, the mentioned versions of software work together seamlessly. Well, probably you can .... Or better to use last 3.x version of FreeBSD? I noticed, the 4.1 is unsupported by IP Filter's make. Best regards, Imre Oolberg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 26 16: 6: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.huntsvilleal.com (server1.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E360137B424 for ; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 16:05:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by server1.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA16732; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 17:37:56 -0400 Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA09800; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 23:05:16 GMT (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 23:05:15 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: The Clark Family Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Fortune Canidate (Was:Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 22 Aug 2000, The Clark Family wrote: > Instead of the cathedral and the bazaar, it should be the garage > sale and the free box. > IMNSHO, this is a good canidate for addition to fortune. Then again, maybe the -o database. ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 26 22:51:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sanson.reyes.somos.net (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C24FB37B423 for ; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 22:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tomasa (tomasa.reyes.somos.net [10.0.0.11]) by sanson.reyes.somos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA43970 for ; Sun, 27 Aug 2000 01:42:35 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Message-Id: <200008270542.BAA43970@sanson.reyes.somos.net> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "FreeBSd Chat list" Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 00:52:19 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 2000 Professional (2.10.2010) For Windows 98 (4.10.2222) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Taking the plunge Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It all started when I picked up a 100Mhz/32MB ram machine on Yahoo auctions. I figure I could use it to do daily builds and help out with upkeep of the /usr/src/UPDATING. The machine turned to be too slow for this purpose and I didn't have time or enough knowledge to automate the process on a daily basis. What did happen on a daily bases was that I used this "test" machine daily and found it to be as responsive as my 233Mhz/64MB ram windows machine. I can take a hint.. I ordered a 500Mhz/96MB ram machine to dedicate as my primary desktop and will be running FreeBSD on it. I am already looking at Applixware and will probably order it shortly after I get the machine. For me it has been a long time coming.5+ years, to really take the plunge into FreeBSD. It wasn't until I got a home "server" (100Mhz/32MB ram) that I started to seriously look at FreeBSD and that has been about a year. Since then I have been learning FreeBSD in leaps and bounds compared to what I learnt on the other 4 years. To make things even sweeter I started a new job where I am on a position to advocate FreeBSD when I believe that FreeBSD is the righ tool for a job. I am always carefull to show why I am recommending FreeBSD and let my boss agree.. although a few times I have taken a stand such as "If we do it with FreeBSD I will do it, else... find someone else to do it".This has worked because the scenarios where I have used it were projects where someone else tried and failed and I had to come to the rescue and patch-up the mess until I could work on a permanent fix. It is for the permanent fix that I then have suggested FreeBSD. My boss is also very hands on. I would say he is 90% about just getting things done and doesn't mind if I use FreeBSD as long as I train others on it. The other 10% is things where his boss comes and practically hands down a technology and there isn't much room for discussion of how good/bad said tool/technology is. The only real concern my boss has, which is very valid, is about how difficult it would be to maintain my setups given the "relative low number of people who know FreeBSD". I told him I am going to document everything and train others in-house. I even tried to see if I could hire someone with FreeBSD and Solaris expertise, but we have had extremely difficulties on finding someone even just with Solaris. I am sure our HR department has not been doing a good job, but still it has been almost 3 months and we have only had a handfull of resumes. I have even posted two notes on FreeBSD job without much success. francisco Moderator of the Corporate BSD list http://www.egroups.com/group/BSD_Corporate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 26 23:28:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sanson.reyes.somos.net (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25F2937B43E for ; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 23:28:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tomasa (tomasa.reyes.somos.net [10.0.0.11]) by sanson.reyes.somos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA44177 for ; Sun, 27 Aug 2000 02:19:56 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Message-Id: <200008270619.CAA44177@sanson.reyes.somos.net> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "FreeBSd Chat list" Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 01:26:57 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 2000 Professional (2.10.2010) For Windows 98 (4.10.2222) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Future of Applixware on FreeBSD? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone cares to share thoughts on the future of Applix on FreeBSD? I am waiting for a machine which am going to dedicate as my primary desktop running FreeBSD. I like what I read on the Applix site about functionality, however I am a little concerned after reading the description of Applix's rebirth as VistaSource. They talk about "Linux and Unix". They could have said "Unix like" operating systems or Unix derived systems..but instead they chose to have "Linux and Unix" Anyway, I just want any random thoughts of what people think is the future of Applix for FreeBSD before I fork the $99. Moreover, any rumors when version 5 will make it to FreeBSD? FreeBSDMall says september, but the first release was re-schedule numerous times. How come FreeBSD Inc, or now BSDI, have not talked to Metrolink and Applixare to have a FreeBSD Office distribution? francisco Moderator of the Corporate BSD list http://www.egroups.com/group/BSD_Corporate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message