From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 24 20:29:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web1610.mail.yahoo.com (web1610.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.164]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4A00337B422 for ; Sun, 24 Sep 2000 20:29:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 3959 invoked by uid 60001); 25 Sep 2000 03:28:28 -0000 Message-ID: <20000925032828.3958.qmail@web1610.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [131.181.127.42] by web1610.mail.yahoo.com; Sun, 24 Sep 2000 20:28:28 PDT Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 20:28:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Haikal Saadh Subject: So what do (unix) sysadmins do anyway? To: chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, This is something I've been wanting to get off my chest for a bit....What do unix sysadmins do anyway? I am under the impression that once you setup unix boxen, they can chug on without any attention at all? I mean NT admins must have to do a lot of running around with Fire Extinguishers, but what do unix sysadmins do? I mean I'm sure you don't get paid loads of money to sit and stare at a root (or quake) console all day long... Am I missing the obvious? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 24 20:41:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC36037B42C for ; Sun, 24 Sep 2000 20:41:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bonsai.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-71-251.dialup.hiwaay.net [216.180.71.251]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e8P3fP725499; Sun, 24 Sep 2000 22:41:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from steve@localhost) by bonsai.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.9.3) id e8P3fQ370118; Sun, 24 Sep 2000 22:41:26 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from steve) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 22:41:25 -0500 From: Steve Price To: Haikal Saadh Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: So what do (unix) sysadmins do anyway? Message-ID: <20000924224125.N5869@bonsai.hiwaay.net> References: <20000925032828.3958.qmail@web1610.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000925032828.3958.qmail@web1610.mail.yahoo.com>; from wyldephyre2@yahoo.com on Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 08:28:28PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 08:28:28PM -0700, Haikal Saadh wrote: # Hi, # This is something I've been wanting to get off my # chest for a bit....What do unix sysadmins do anyway? # I am under the impression that once you setup unix # boxen, they can chug on without any attention at all? # # I mean NT admins must have to do a lot of running # around with Fire Extinguishers, but what do unix # sysadmins do? I mean I'm sure you don't get paid loads # of money to sit and stare at a root (or quake) console # all day long... # # Am I missing the obvious? A good Un*x sysadmin usually doesn't look like they are doing anything because they (and the OS) are so good that they don't have anything to do anything but wait for something to break. Seriously good Un*x sysadmins will be watching how the systems are performing, learning new things, tweaking existing scripts to make them more efficient, watching for security advisories, ... Unlike NT admins you won't find them constantly in the machine room rebooting boxes all day. Just because Un*x can chug along by itself doesn't mean you can do without a good sysadmin. A bad one will set everything up and every script kiddie and their cat will breakin. A good one will be there to give you piece of mind that you will never have running one of those M$ products. -steve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 24 21:40: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13F6237B43C for ; Sun, 24 Sep 2000 21:40:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from utah (jcwells@utah.nwlink.com [209.20.130.41]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA28899; Sun, 24 Sep 2000 21:39:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 21:52:46 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcwells@utah To: Haikal Saadh Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: So what do (unix) sysadmins do anyway? In-Reply-To: <20000925032828.3958.qmail@web1610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 24 Sep 2000, Haikal Saadh wrote: > Am I missing the obvious? The big thing that is missing is that any system (TN. UNix. Mac) does not run in a vacuum. Organizations are demanding more. Systems do need to do maintenance. Maintenace can be scripted in many cases, but you still need a human (well trained, well supported too) to use the brain cells to analyze how well systems are working. Coming from the environment that I do, I state that there is no such thing as a system failure. There are only human failures. you can't possibly program a computer to deal with all the faults we colud impose on a system. A notable fault is a malicious attack. I came from Univerity of Washington in Seattle. There is a man there named Dave Dittrich. He is a great guy. Read this interview on slashdot. It is mostly about security. Security is only a fraction of what can involve a Sysadmins time. Security could also consume ALL of a sysadmins time. There is a ton of wisdom here. Multiply what you read by 100 to get an idea of the scope of the realm of system administration. http://slashdot.org/interviews/00/02/16/1836215.shtml Most notably: "This is one of my pet peeves; THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH GOOD SYSTEM ADMINISTRATORS. There needs to be WAY MORE of them, they need to be PAID AND TRAINED BETTER, and (to put it bluntly) they need to be considered a critical resource REQUIRED for powerful computers on the Internet today, not as overhead expense to be minimized." -Dave Dittrich on Slashdot.org Thank you, Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 24 22:41: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost01.reflexnet.net (mailhost01.reflexnet.net [64.6.192.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A85237B424 for ; Sun, 24 Sep 2000 22:40:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com ([64.6.211.149]) by mailhost01.reflexnet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Sun, 24 Sep 2000 22:39:45 -0700 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e8P5es462282; Sun, 24 Sep 2000 22:40:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 22:40:54 -0700 From: "Crist J . Clark" To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: Haikal Saadh , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: So what do (unix) sysadmins do anyway? Message-ID: <20000924224054.H59015@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <20000925032828.3958.qmail@web1610.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from jcwells@nwlink.com on Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 09:52:46PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 09:52:46PM -0700, Jason C. Wells wrote: > On Sun, 24 Sep 2000, Haikal Saadh wrote: > > > Am I missing the obvious? > > Coming from the environment that I do, I state that there is no such thing > as a system failure. Huh. NOT! The admin's at our office spend a _lot_ of time fixing systems that die from hardware failures. Sure, you have backups (data and hardware backups) but you still need (1) to get the backup on-line (it's seldom 100% automated), (2) to fix/replace broken hardware (can't be running without on the backup for too long), and (3) to do the inevitable little tweaks to get both (1) and (2) to really work. With literally hundreds of heavily used UNIX-type boxes you _will_ have a small failure of one type or another every few days and you're bound to have something pretty bad on the scale of months. Once you get a UNIX box up and running, you can forget it... until some hardware breaks, some user manages to screw up their stuff so bad they come to the admin to fix it, a user wants to "upgrade" some horendous monster of an app, etc. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 25 5: 9:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.monmouth.com (mail.monmouth.com [209.191.58.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC12C37B424 for ; Mon, 25 Sep 2000 05:09:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bg-tc-ppp1055.monmouth.com (bg-tc-ppp1055.monmouth.com [209.191.51.243]) by mail.monmouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA16002 for ; Mon, 25 Sep 2000 08:09:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by bg-tc-ppp1055.monmouth.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) id e8PCFUj04887 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 25 Sep 2000 08:15:30 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from pechter) From: Bill Pechter Message-Id: <200009251215.e8PCFUj04887@bg-tc-ppp1055.monmouth.com> Subject: Re: what do Unix admins do In-Reply-To: from freebsd-chat-digest at "Sep 24, 2000 08:29:26 pm" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 08:15:30 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: bpechter@shell.monmouth.com X-Phone-Number: 732-935-0629 X-OS-Type: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL66 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 20:28:28 -0700 (PDT) > From: Haikal Saadh > Subject: So what do (unix) sysadmins do anyway? > > Hi, > This is something I've been wanting to get off my > chest for a bit....What do unix sysadmins do anyway? > I am under the impression that once you setup unix > boxen, they can chug on without any attention at all? > > I mean NT admins must have to do a lot of running > around with Fire Extinguishers, but what do unix > sysadmins do? I mean I'm sure you don't get paid loads > of money to sit and stare at a root (or quake) console > all day long... > > Am I missing the obvious? > Well, you install lots of more Unix boxes. Upgrade your FreeBSD stuff regularly to keep all the security holes closed and spend a lot of time fixing the pile of user Windows desktop problems the Windows deskside support guys can't figure out. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 25 9:58:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7F8B37B42C for ; Mon, 25 Sep 2000 09:58:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from utah (jcwells@utah.nwlink.com [209.20.130.41]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA12026; Mon, 25 Sep 2000 09:58:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 10:11:15 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcwells@utah Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Cc: Haikal Saadh , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: So what do (unix) sysadmins do anyway? In-Reply-To: <20000924224054.H59015@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 24 Sep 2000, Crist J . Clark wrote: > > Coming from the environment that I do, I state that there is no such thing > > as a system failure. > > Huh. NOT! The admin's at our office spend a _lot_ of time fixing > systems that die from hardware failures. Sure, you have backups (data Yes, things break. I agree with everything you have said except the "NOT" part. Allow me to explain my position. My position is: We must hold _people_ culpable for systems failures and not fall into the trap that the system is to blame. (I use system here as an abstraction.) Did the hardware fail due to a design flaw? Did the hardware fail due to some error on the installers part? Did the software have a bug? Does the hardware have an advertised mean time between failures but wasn't replaced because an organization didn't implement a scheduled obsolecense plan? There is, or could be, (should even?) a human factor behind each one of these questions. The environment that I came from consistently placed the burden of success or failure on humans. We always discussed incidents. We examined lessons learned. Almost invariably, the conclusion one ended up drawing was that some person or persons made error(s) which led to an incident. Yes spurious system failures occured. After they did though, efforts were made to ensure that it never happened again. This mentality made safe work of a dangerous business. All of the lessons that produced this mentality were written in blood. Not all systems are given this level of scrutiny. I have even fallen prey to my own value judgements regarding my execution of managing systems. In the end though, it was my value judgement that was to blame. It was not the systems fault that I failed. My point is that is that a human is ultimately responsible. (At a minumum we end up cleaning up the mess.) This must be the way it is. If we get to the point where the machine is the excuse, then why bother? Now I come back to our original posters question. A system administator is needed for all the reasons you described. A system administrator should also be making those needed value judgements to prevent system failure. I hope that we have both provided a variety of reasons that a system administrator is important. I hope we have answered the question, "What does a system administrator do anyway?" OBTW. There is a double standard in this respect regarding computers. We do not accept the failure of the Corvair or the Audi TT or the Boeing 737. When the Tacoma Narrows falls we don't just say, "Sometime bridges crash. Get over it." People accept computer failures as a matter of course. It doesn't have to be that way. A human value judgement somewhere along the line leads to failure. Thank you, Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 25 14:53:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22CE237B422; Mon, 25 Sep 2000 14:53:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e8PLrAk08847; Mon, 25 Sep 2000 14:53:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 14:53:10 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: committers@freebsd.org Subject: efnet sucks Message-ID: <20000925145309.L9141@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm IRCing on irc.freebsd.org if anyone wants to talk to me. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 25 16:46:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74E5837B422 for ; Mon, 25 Sep 2000 16:46:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt6-216-180-5-212.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.5.212]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e8PNkJ721685; Mon, 25 Sep 2000 18:46:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id e8PNSea06980; Mon, 25 Sep 2000 18:28:40 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <200009252328.e8PNSea06980@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Haikal Saadh Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: So what do (unix) sysadmins do anyway? In-reply-to: Message from Haikal Saadh of "Sun, 24 Sep 2000 20:28:28 PDT." <20000925032828.3958.qmail@web1610.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 18:28:40 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Haikal Saadh writes: > Hi, > This is something I've been wanting to get off my > chest for a bit....What do unix sysadmins do anyway? > I am under the impression that once you setup unix > boxen, they can chug on without any attention at all? Something every one else seems to have missed. When I was a full time sysadmin I spent a lot of time educating users. Things like how to use chmod and why you do not 777 everything and why you don't have to. How to use the tape drive, how to print, how to format text so it prints pretty... One situation in particular the users had data files with 11,000 or so characters per line. The SysV vi in Irix 6.2 had fits. So did Sun's. But vim didn't. In short the sysadmin is the guru who helps the users get their tasks accomplished. Installing the system(s) is only the beginning. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 25 17:38: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from clifford.inch.com (clifford.inch.com [207.240.140.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1B5537B43F for ; Mon, 25 Sep 2000 17:38:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from omar@localhost) by clifford.inch.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) id TAA00497 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 25 Sep 2000 19:35:35 -0400 Message-ID: <20000925193535.A488@clifford.inch.com> Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 19:35:35 -0400 From: Omar Thameen To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: deja.com/usenet/ service Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Now that deja.com has made it onto f*dcompany.com, I'm concerned about what I'll do for usenet searches. Sure, I go for Google for web searches first, but at least there are others to fall back on - HotBot, AltaVista, etc. Are there any other usenet search services? I can't tell you how many times I found answers on deja.com/usenet/, but I haven't been able to find a similar site. Anyone? Omar To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 25 17:43:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CF3E37B422 for ; Mon, 25 Sep 2000 17:43:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA16063; Mon, 25 Sep 2000 18:43:29 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000925184140.04ddbc70@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 18:43:25 -0600 To: Omar Thameen , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: deja.com/usenet/ service In-Reply-To: <20000925193535.A488@clifford.inch.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Last I heard, deja.com was not killing its Usenet service but rather its own INTERNAL discussion groups. I believe it's handing these over to someone else (Topica? eGroups?). --Brett At 05:35 PM 9/25/2000, Omar Thameen wrote: >Now that deja.com has made it onto f*dcompany.com, I'm concerned >about what I'll do for usenet searches. Sure, I go for Google >for web searches first, but at least there are others to fall >back on - HotBot, AltaVista, etc. > >Are there any other usenet search services? I can't tell you how >many times I found answers on deja.com/usenet/, but I haven't >been able to find a similar site. > >Anyone? > >Omar > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 26 1:28:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost01.reflexnet.net (mailhost01.reflexnet.net [64.6.192.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CECE37B424 for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 01:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com ([64.6.211.149]) by mailhost01.reflexnet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Tue, 26 Sep 2000 01:26:44 -0700 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e8Q8RlM70981; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 01:27:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 01:27:46 -0700 From: "Crist J . Clark" To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Haikal Saadh , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: So what do (unix) sysadmins do anyway? Message-ID: <20000926012746.Q59015@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <20000924224054.H59015@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from jcwells@nwlink.com on Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 10:11:15AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 10:11:15AM -0700, Jason C. Wells wrote: > On Sun, 24 Sep 2000, Crist J . Clark wrote: > > > > Coming from the environment that I do, I state that there is no such thing > > > as a system failure. > > > > Huh. NOT! The admin's at our office spend a _lot_ of time fixing > > systems that die from hardware failures. Sure, you have backups (data > > Yes, things break. I agree with everything you have said except the "NOT" > part. Allow me to explain my position. My position is: We must hold > _people_ culpable for systems failures and not fall into the trap that the > system is to blame. (I use system here as an abstraction.) > > Did the hardware fail due to a design flaw? Did the hardware fail due to > some error on the installers part? Did the software have a bug? Does the > hardware have an advertised mean time between failures but wasn't replaced > because an organization didn't implement a scheduled obsolecense plan? > There is, or could be, (should even?) a human factor behind each one of > these questions. > > The environment that I came from consistently placed the burden of success > or failure on humans. We always discussed incidents. We examined lessons > learned. Almost invariably, the conclusion one ended up drawing was that > some person or persons made error(s) which led to an incident. > > Yes spurious system failures occured. After they did though, efforts were > made to ensure that it never happened again. This mentality made safe > work of a dangerous business. All of the lessons that produced this > mentality were written in blood. My scholastic training is in chemical engineering. One of the things we had to study was safety. Acctually, one of the first things you learn is that there is no such thing as absolute safety, only relative levels of risk. If you think you can make _anything_ failure free, you are reaching for a fool's dream. It is also makes life _more_ dangerous since in such an environment, people end up putting efforts into concealing risk rather than open efforts to minimize and quantify it. It is also often not fruitful to try to assign blame to problems. People are not prescient, and they cannot see every possible failure mode and plan for it. Fear of blame can again lead to hiding the risks rather than dealing with them in a more productive manner. (Unfortunately, the legal establishment also is often counter-productive, the ol' Risk Free Society falicy.) There is a difference between a mistake made in good faith and negligence. Going back to some of your examples, modern computer hardware fails and often no good reason will be found (or the effort to determine the cause is not worth the cost; replace, clean up, move on). The mean failure time is just what the 'mean' implies, an average, a statistical quantity. An particular item may fail in half the mean time, one quarter of the mean time, or it may run without problems for ten times the design life. You have to accept the risk with which you are comfortable and live with it. [snip] > My point is that is that a human is ultimately responsible. (At a minumum > we end up cleaning up the mess.) This must be the way it is. If we get > to the point where the machine is the excuse, then why bother? This is simply a matter of definition. For the above piece of hardware, if the manufacturere gave you an accurate mean design life, but one particular card fails in half the time, who gets this "ultimate responsibility?" In your model, it is whoever decided that using that item for its design life was acceptable and everyone else who then agreed with that determination. Well, now, we had a failure. We accepted a level of risk, and shucks, we lost the crap shoot. But we had accepted the risk, the hardware may fail before the mean lifetime. No need to make excuses. No need for blame. C'est la vie. > Now I come back to our original posters question. A system administator > is needed for all the reasons you described. A system administrator > should also be making those needed value judgements to prevent system > failure. I hope that we have both provided a variety of reasons that a > system administrator is important. I hope we have answered the question, > "What does a system administrator do anyway?" A system administrator has finite resources, finite time, finite money, finite knowledge, and even a finite set of tools (hardware or software) to choose from. You always need to accept a level of risk, and given the above constraints, you need to decide what level is acceptable given the resources you have and make sure everyone is comfortable. (And if you have anyone that says they want it risk-free... well, there are some out there who just don't get it. When they go outside to smoke a cigarette, talk some sense into them.) Then, when failure does come, have your plans ready, but always assume there are failure modes that you missed. > OBTW. There is a double standard in this respect regarding computers. We > do not accept the failure of the Corvair or the Audi TT or the Boeing 737. > When the Tacoma Narrows falls we don't just say, "Sometime bridges crash. > Get over it." But planes _do_ crash. Bridges _do_ collapse. And there will be more of both in the future. Trying to build a plane with no risk of crashing or a bridge that could never ever collapse is not the mindset of the engineers really working these things. Thanks to HMS Titanic, the folk wisdom of this culture has come to realize there is no such a beast as an unsinkable ship. It still needs to sink in that the same goes for airplanes, cars, nuclear powerplants, medical treatments, computers, and anything else you care to name. > People accept computer failures as a matter of course. That was not a good analogy. If that Boeing 737 failed because of a computer error, you bet it would not be considered acceptable. Remember that Arianne that failed a few years back do to bad flight software? The computers on the space shuttle fail regularly, but they have backups. When a desktop computer or a web server fails, there generally are not lives in the balance. There can be money at stake, but if you loose $2000 of productivity to fix a server during its lifetime, you are better off living with that risk than shelling out and extra $5000 to put fancier and redundant parts in or $20000 to build a dedicated backup. Yes, there are often zero or near-zero cost ways to reduce risk, but only to a certain level and those "zero cost" fixes frequently have hidden costs (your better off spending $10000 a year fixing problems that arise because you don't have a guru-level sysadmin if it's gonna cost you $30000 a year more to have said guru as opposed to a capable-but-non-guru sysadmin). > It doesn't have to > be that way. A human value judgement somewhere along the line leads to > failure. Yes, I am afraid it does have to be this way. It is undoubtably possible to greatly reduce the failures that we see in today's computer systems, but there will always be failures. The human value judgements should not be looked at as "leading to failure," but rather one should make value judgments about what levels of risk (rates of failure) are acceptable for the case at hand. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 26 3: 8:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ducky.nz.freebsd.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A6BF37B424 for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 03:08:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ducky.nz.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA23858 for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 22:08:02 +1200 (NZST) Message-Id: <200009261008.WAA23858@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: langille.org To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 22:07:56 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: CD writers - recommendations Reply-To: dan@langille.org X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Does anyone have a recommendation for a cd writer? I'm told SCSI cd-writers are better than IDE under FreeBSD. Comments? cheers -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://www.freebsddiary.org/ FreshPorts - http://freshports.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 26 9:35:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6115537B43C for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 09:35:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from owp.csus.edu (zohwns@[130.86.77.19]) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA10730; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 09:35:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Message-ID: <39D0CF20.881262BB@owp.csus.edu> Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 09:30:24 -0700 From: Joseph Scott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dan@langille.org Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CD writers - recommendations References: <200009261008.WAA23858@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dan Langille wrote: > > Does anyone have a recommendation for a cd writer? > > I'm told SCSI cd-writers are better than IDE under FreeBSD. > Comments? I've got an external SCSI: HP CD-Writer Plus 9210e I've only under FreeBSD, just burning data cds. I can burn at full speed (8x) and still use the system at the same time with out difficulties. I can burn a full iso image at 8x in under 10 minutes. No complaints thus far, but I've only ever used it to burn data. -- Joseph Scott joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu The Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 26 10: 4:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from exchange.nils.lib.il.us (mailsrv.nils.lib.il.us [206.190.22.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 165AC37B42C; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 10:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by EXCHANGE with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 12:05:05 -0500 Message-ID: <3073B3378589D411B21600508BAF32AA012345@EXCHANGE> From: Nathan Williams To: questions@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Pulse poll at Borland Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 12:05:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm not sure if anyone has alerted this group yet, so I'm sorry if this is a repeat. Borland is conducting a developer's poll at http://community.borland.com addressing which OS to add support to for C++ Builder and Delphi. Currently FreeBSD is 4th, but could easily pull of second place if we could get a few more votes in. Nobody knows how much cred Borland puts into these surveys, but this is a great and essential opportunity for the FreeBSD community to express their interest in corporate support for FreeBSD applications. So, VOTE goddamnit. Nathan Williams nathanw@nils.lib.il.us P.S. Before voting you will need to fill out a very short registration form, no biggy so don't let it discourage you from making your voice heard. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 26 12:28:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C79737B422; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 12:28:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA26249; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 13:28:24 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000926124623.04cf18b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 12:56:14 -0600 To: Nathan Williams , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Pulse poll at Borland In-Reply-To: <3073B3378589D411B21600508BAF32AA012345@EXCHANGE> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Borland has a long history of ignoring all but the #1 platform in any niche -- a strategy which has caused them serious problems more than once. Their support of Windows to the exclusion of all other OSes in the 90's made them dependent on Microsoft and practically destroyed the company. When I asked them, at the February LinuxWorld, if they'd be supporting FreeBSD, the marketing droid at the booth asked me (I kid you not) "Which distribution of Linux is that? I've never heard of it." The sad part is that their booth was about two aisles away from the Walnut Creek/BSDi booth. I don't even think they "got it" when the 10-foot-high daemon walked by. When I posted messages on their site's message boards asking politely about support for the BSDs, they simply did not respond. This despite the fact that Borland language manager Simon Thornhill claims that "Borland does not have a platform agenda." (Odd, then, that they support so few platforms!) In short, Borland needs a serious wake-up call. A *lot* of people will have to respond to that poll before they even consider any of the BSDs, and if we're not #1 (or, at best, #2) they simply won't do it. So folks had better vote early and often. This is a company that up to this point has had little foresight and does not have any sense of the value of diversification. I hope they will change. I'm not holding my breath, though, as they have been so dense for all of these years. --Brett Glass At 11:05 AM 9/26/2000, Nathan Williams wrote: >I'm not sure if anyone has alerted this group yet, so I'm sorry if this is a >repeat. Borland is conducting a developer's poll at >http://community.borland.com addressing which OS to add support to for C++ >Builder and Delphi. Currently FreeBSD is 4th, but could easily pull of >second place if we could get a few more votes in. Nobody knows how much >cred Borland puts into these surveys, but this is a great and essential >opportunity for the FreeBSD community to express their interest in corporate >support for FreeBSD applications. So, VOTE goddamnit. >Nathan Williams >nathanw@nils.lib.il.us >P.S. Before voting you will need to fill out a very short registration >form, no biggy so don't let it discourage you from making your voice heard. > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 26 12:34:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from exchange.nils.lib.il.us (mailsrv.nils.lib.il.us [206.190.22.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E808D37B424; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 12:34:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by EXCHANGE with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 14:34:22 -0500 Message-ID: <3073B3378589D411B21600508BAF32AA012349@EXCHANGE> From: Nathan Williams To: Brett Glass , Nathan Williams , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Pulse poll at Borland Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 14:34:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org So, did you vote? > -----Original Message----- > From: Brett Glass [SMTP:brett@lariat.org] > Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 1:56 PM > To: Nathan Williams; chat@FreeBSD.ORG; advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: Pulse poll at Borland > > Borland has a long history of ignoring all but the #1 platform in any > niche -- a strategy which has caused them serious problems more than > once. Their support of Windows to the exclusion of all other OSes in > the 90's made them dependent on Microsoft and practically destroyed > the company. > > When I asked them, at the February LinuxWorld, if they'd be supporting > FreeBSD, the marketing droid at the booth asked me (I kid you not) > "Which distribution of Linux is that? I've never heard of it." > > The sad part is that their booth was about two aisles away from > the Walnut Creek/BSDi booth. I don't even think they "got it" when > the 10-foot-high daemon walked by. > > When I posted messages on their site's message boards asking politely > about support for the BSDs, they simply did not respond. This despite > the fact that Borland language manager Simon Thornhill claims that > "Borland does not have a platform agenda." (Odd, then, that they > support so few platforms!) > > In short, Borland needs a serious wake-up call. > > A *lot* of people will have to respond to that poll before they even > consider any of the BSDs, and if we're not #1 (or, at best, #2) they > simply won't do it. So folks had better vote early and often. > > This is a company that up to this point has had little foresight and > does not have any sense of the value of diversification. I hope they > will change. I'm not holding my breath, though, as they have been so > dense for all of these years. > > --Brett Glass > > At 11:05 AM 9/26/2000, Nathan Williams wrote: > > >I'm not sure if anyone has alerted this group yet, so I'm sorry if this > is a > >repeat. Borland is conducting a developer's poll at > >http://community.borland.com addressing which OS to add support to for > C++ > >Builder and Delphi. Currently FreeBSD is 4th, but could easily pull of > >second place if we could get a few more votes in. Nobody knows how much > >cred Borland puts into these surveys, but this is a great and essential > >opportunity for the FreeBSD community to express their interest in > corporate > >support for FreeBSD applications. So, VOTE goddamnit. > >Nathan Williams > >nathanw@nils.lib.il.us > >P.S. Before voting you will need to fill out a very short registration > >form, no biggy so don't let it discourage you from making your voice > heard. > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 26 12:36:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C12A37B422; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 12:36:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA59658; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 21:36:23 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Maxim Sobolev Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FW: [CVS 1.11 has been released on 18 September] References: <39D0D51B.AC57C347@FreeBSD.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 26 Sep 2000 21:36:22 +0200 In-Reply-To: Maxim Sobolev's message of "Tue, 26 Sep 2000 19:55:55 +0300" Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moved from -developers to -chat] Maxim Sobolev writes: > Following in the traditions of CVS, the code name for CVS 1.11 was Steelhead. I wonder, will CVS 1.12 (if it is ever released) be codenamed Bonehead? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 26 13:37:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B8BC37B424; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 13:37:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA27088; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 14:37:20 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000926143546.00cf7a80@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 14:36:31 -0600 To: Nathan Williams , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Pulse poll at Borland In-Reply-To: <3073B3378589D411B21600508BAF32AA012349@EXCHANGE> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yep. Alas, BeOS (!) was beating us about 2:1. --Brett At 01:34 PM 9/26/2000, Nathan Williams wrote: >So, did you vote? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 26 14: 0:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8124237B43E for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 14:00:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e8QL0CZ19249; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 14:00:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 14:00:11 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pulse poll at Borland Message-ID: <20000926140011.C9141@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <3073B3378589D411B21600508BAF32AA012349@EXCHANGE> <4.3.2.7.2.20000926143546.00cf7a80@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000926143546.00cf7a80@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 02:36:31PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Brett Glass [000926 13:37] wrote: > Yep. Alas, BeOS (!) was beating us about 2:1. People still use that? -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 26 15: 1:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rz.uni-ulm.de (sirius-giga.rz.uni-ulm.de [134.60.241.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 107FC37B440; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 15:01:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmx.de (lilith.wohnheim.uni-ulm.de [134.60.106.64]) by mail.rz.uni-ulm.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA13303; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 00:01:21 +0200 (MEST) Message-ID: <39D11CB1.78C07758@gmx.de> Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 00:01:21 +0200 From: Siegbert Baude X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: de, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: questions@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Pulse poll at Borland References: <3073B3378589D411B21600508BAF32AA012345@EXCHANGE> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Borland is conducting a developer's poll at > http://community.borland.com addressing which OS to add support to for C++ > Builder and Delphi. Currently FreeBSD is 4th, but could easily pull of > second place if we could get a few more votes in. Hey, my vote just got us in front of MacOS X with 213 vs. 212 votes! But we still need another 260 to catch BeOS. How many people are subscribed here? :-) > Nobody knows how much > cred Borland puts into these surveys, but this is a great and essential > opportunity for the FreeBSD community to express their interest in corporate > support for FreeBSD applications. So, VOTE goddamnit. Would have liked to fulfill my duties on ICANN also, but their server didnīt want me :-( Anybody else experienced this? Ciao Siegbert To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 26 15:12:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FB3A37B422; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 15:12:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EE091818F; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 00:12:21 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <39D11CB1.78C07758@gmx.de> References: <3073B3378589D411B21600508BAF32AA012345@EXCHANGE> <39D11CB1.78C07758@gmx.de> Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 00:09:56 +0200 To: Siegbert Baude From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Pulse poll at Borland Cc: questions@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:01 AM +0200 2000/9/27, Siegbert Baude wrote: > Hey, my vote just got us in front of MacOS X with 213 vs. 212 votes! But we > still need another 260 to catch BeOS. How many people are >subscribed here? :-) Me, I'll vote for BeOS. From everything I've heard, we would be far better off without them, and I'll be happy if they waste their time on a totally dead-end OS like that. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 26 17:28:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96DC237B422 for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 17:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 574CA755B; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 17:32:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4592D1D8E; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 17:32:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 17:32:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pulse poll at Borland In-Reply-To: <20000926140011.C9141@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: :* Brett Glass [000926 13:37] wrote: :> Yep. Alas, BeOS (!) was beating us about 2:1. : :People still use that? Still? How about ever? OS/2 at least had a large base (if nothing more, it ran a boatload of ATMs) before it was killed by IBM's lack of marketing ability and MS's outright hostility towards it. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 26 17:51:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BD7637B422 for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 17:51:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA29655; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 18:51:14 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000926184939.04d83ae0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 18:50:16 -0600 To: Alfred Perlstein From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Pulse poll at Borland Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000926140011.C9141@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000926143546.00cf7a80@localhost> <3073B3378589D411B21600508BAF32AA012349@EXCHANGE> <4.3.2.7.2.20000926143546.00cf7a80@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:00 PM 9/26/2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: >* Brett Glass [000926 13:37] wrote: >> Yep. Alas, BeOS (!) was beating us about 2:1. > >People still use that? Yep. Believe it or not, I even have a BeBox in the lab. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 26 23: 4:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from inconnu.isu.edu (inconnu.isu.edu [134.50.8.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E73BC37B42C for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 23:04:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (galt@localhost) by inconnu.isu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA01590; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 00:04:06 -0600 Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 00:04:06 -0600 (MDT) From: John Galt To: Omar Thameen Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: deja.com/usenet/ service In-Reply-To: <20000925193535.A488@clifford.inch.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Unless it got a 200, don't worry--I got points on FC for CDNOW, and I don't see it filing for ch13 anytime soon... On Mon, 25 Sep 2000, Omar Thameen wrote: > Now that deja.com has made it onto f*dcompany.com, I'm concerned > about what I'll do for usenet searches. Sure, I go for Google > for web searches first, but at least there are others to fall > back on - HotBot, AltaVista, etc. > > Are there any other usenet search services? I can't tell you how > many times I found answers on deja.com/usenet/, but I haven't > been able to find a similar site. > > Anyone? > > Omar > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity. Who is John Galt? galt@inconnu.isu.edu, that's who! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 26 23:10:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from inconnu.isu.edu (inconnu.isu.edu [134.50.8.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46E5537B424 for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 23:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (galt@localhost) by inconnu.isu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA01825; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 00:10:34 -0600 Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 00:10:34 -0600 (MDT) From: John Galt To: Dan Langille Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CD writers - recommendations In-Reply-To: <200009261008.WAA23858@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org SCSI are better period. IDE does the processing on the main processor, while SCSI has its own to allow the main processor to hiccough a couple of times during the burn without ruining the burn (as much). On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, Dan Langille wrote: > Does anyone have a recommendation for a cd writer? > > I'm told SCSI cd-writers are better than IDE under FreeBSD. > Comments? > > cheers > -- > Dan Langille > The FreeBSD Diary - http://www.freebsddiary.org/ > FreshPorts - http://freshports.org/ > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity. Who is John Galt? galt@inconnu.isu.edu, that's who! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 26 23:40: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n37.san.rr.com (dt051n37.san.rr.com [204.210.32.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B930237B423 for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 23:40:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gorean.org (Studded@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n37.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA22844; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 23:39:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Message-ID: <39D19632.524AE3A2@gorean.org> Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 23:39:46 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT-092 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Galt Cc: Dan Langille , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CD writers - recommendations References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Galt wrote: > > SCSI are better period. IDE does the processing on the main processor, > while SCSI has its own to allow the main processor to hiccough a couple of > times during the burn without ruining the burn (as much). What about USB? -- "The dead cannot be seduced." - Kai, "Lexx" Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 26 23:43: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from clifford.inch.com (clifford.inch.com [207.240.140.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D3E237B423 for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 23:43:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from omar@localhost) by clifford.inch.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) id BAA08621; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 01:40:18 -0400 Message-ID: <20000927014018.A8534@clifford.inch.com> Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 01:40:18 -0400 From: Omar Thameen To: dan@langille.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CD writers - recommendations References: <200009261008.WAA23858@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <200009261008.WAA23858@ducky.nz.freebsd.org>; from Dan Langille on Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 10:07:56PM +1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I go all SCSI for ease of installation and stability. At the office, we have 2 Compro 7502's (4x read, 2x write I think), and they work great. If I recall correctly, they use Panasonic innards. We bought that brand because they were one of the first to supply free hardware to the author of cdrecord. At home, I have a newer Yamaha 6416S (6x4x16) which also works with no problems. It does CDR and CDRW's (though I don't know what the state of CDRW support is in FreeBSD). Check out these links for some relevant info: http://www.best.com/~spadger/CDR-main.html http://www.fokus.gmd.de/research/cc/glone/employees/joerg.schilling/private/cdrecord.html Omar On Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 10:07:56PM +1200, Dan Langille wrote: > Does anyone have a recommendation for a cd writer? > > I'm told SCSI cd-writers are better than IDE under FreeBSD. > Comments? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 26 23:48:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from inconnu.isu.edu (inconnu.isu.edu [134.50.8.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52B8737B423 for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 23:48:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (galt@localhost) by inconnu.isu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA03363; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 00:48:30 -0600 Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 00:48:30 -0600 (MDT) From: John Galt To: Doug Barton Cc: Dan Langille , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CD writers - recommendations In-Reply-To: <39D19632.524AE3A2@gorean.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Never dealt with it, but I'm assuming that from descriptions I've heard, there's a implicit coprocessor involved--YMMV, IANAUSBU (IANA USB User...) On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, Doug Barton wrote: > John Galt wrote: > > > > SCSI are better period. IDE does the processing on the main processor, > > while SCSI has its own to allow the main processor to hiccough a couple of > > times during the burn without ruining the burn (as much). > > What about USB? > > -- Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity. Who is John Galt? galt@inconnu.isu.edu, that's who! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 27 0: 4:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail01.phoenixdsl.com (mail01.phoenixdsl.com [216.178.151.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A632B37B422 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 00:04:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phoenixdsl.com ([64.32.158.84]) by mail01.phoenixdsl.com (InterMail vK.4.02.00.05.01 201-232-116-105-101 license da4da6e5fc829a7858725236bede8deb) with ESMTP id <20000927070416.KTLW18281.mail01@phoenixdsl.com>; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 02:04:16 -0500 Message-ID: <39D2451F.C4C2DA82@phoenixdsl.com> Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 15:06:07 -0400 From: 1mazda1 <1mazda1@phoenixdsl.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Omar Thameen Cc: dan@langille.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CD writers - recommendations References: <200009261008.WAA23858@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> <20000927014018.A8534@clifford.inch.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------D0AD598C69EBAD8EA55FCB7B" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --------------D0AD598C69EBAD8EA55FCB7B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Q. Does anyone have a recommendation for a cd writer? Ya any Plextor that is SCSI / look at any of the reviews... make sure it has a good size read buffer Q. I'm told SCSI cd-writers are better than IDE under FreeBSD. Any SCSI device is more efficent than IDE devices because SCSI devices run from the SCSI BUS which is not the same BUS as the CPU thats because it has taken off the load from the CPU and therefore leaves more processing power.. any questions? 1mazda1 > Comments? Omar Thameen wrote: > I go all SCSI for ease of installation and stability. > > At the office, we have 2 Compro 7502's (4x read, 2x write I think), > and they work great. If I recall correctly, they use Panasonic innards. > We bought that brand because they were one of the first to supply free > hardware to the author of cdrecord. > > At home, I have a newer Yamaha 6416S (6x4x16) which also works with > no problems. It does CDR and CDRW's (though I don't know what the > state of CDRW support is in FreeBSD). > > Check out these links for some relevant info: > http://www.best.com/~spadger/CDR-main.html > http://www.fokus.gmd.de/research/cc/glone/employees/joerg.schilling/private/cdrecord.html > > Omar > > On Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 10:07:56PM +1200, Dan Langille wrote: > > Does anyone have a recommendation for a cd writer? > > > > I'm told SCSI cd-writers are better than IDE under FreeBSD. > > Comments? > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message --------------D0AD598C69EBAD8EA55FCB7B Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Q. Does anyone have a recommendation for a cd writer?
Ya any Plextor that is SCSI / look at any of the reviews...
make sure it has a good size read buffer

Q. I'm told SCSI cd-writers are better than IDE under FreeBSD.
Any SCSI device is more efficent than IDE devices because
SCSI devices run from the SCSI BUS which is not the same BUS as the CPU thats
because it has taken off the load from the CPU and therefore leaves more processing power..

any questions?

1mazda1
> Comments?

Omar Thameen wrote:

I go all SCSI for ease of installation and stability.

At the office, we have 2 Compro 7502's (4x read, 2x write I think),
and they work great.  If I recall correctly, they use Panasonic innards.
We bought that brand because they were one of the first to supply free
hardware to the author of cdrecord.

At home, I have a newer Yamaha 6416S (6x4x16) which also works with
no problems.  It does CDR and CDRW's (though I don't know what the
state of CDRW support is in FreeBSD).

Check out these links for some relevant info:
http://www.best.com/~spadger/CDR-main.html
http://www.fokus.gmd.de/research/cc/glone/employees/joerg.schilling/private/cdrecord.html

Omar

On Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 10:07:56PM +1200, Dan Langille wrote:
> Does anyone have a recommendation for a cd writer?
>
> I'm told SCSI cd-writers are better than IDE under FreeBSD.
> Comments?

To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message

--------------D0AD598C69EBAD8EA55FCB7B-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 27 0: 7:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ducky.nz.freebsd.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C421837B422 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 00:07:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ducky.nz.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA30714; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 19:07:30 +1200 (NZST) Message-Id: <200009270707.TAA30714@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: langille.org To: 1mazda1 <1mazda1@phoenixdsl.com> Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 19:07:30 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: CD writers - recommendations Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <39D2451F.C4C2DA82@phoenixdsl.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 27 Sep 2000, at 15:06, 1mazda1 wrote: > Q. Does anyone have a recommendation for a cd writer? > Ya any Plextor that is SCSI / look at any of the reviews... > make sure it has a good size read buffer You are not the first to recommend Plextor (people I know on IRC mentioned them to me). The other I've seen recommended is the Ricoh Internal 6/4/24 SCSI, so I'll be looking into that one too. > Q. I'm told SCSI cd-writers are better than IDE under FreeBSD. > Any SCSI device is more efficent than IDE devices because > SCSI devices run from the SCSI BUS which is not the same BUS as the CPU > thats because it has taken off the load from the CPU and therefore leaves > more processing power.. I've also been told that IDE cd writers under FreeBSD are a problem. What problem, I don't know. Anyone have any clues? -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://www.freebsddiary.org/ FreshPorts - http://freshports.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 27 0:24:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail01.phoenixdsl.com (mail01.phoenixdsl.com [216.178.151.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AD8637B424 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 00:24:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phoenixdsl.com ([64.32.158.84]) by mail01.phoenixdsl.com (InterMail vK.4.02.00.05.01 201-232-116-105-101 license da4da6e5fc829a7858725236bede8deb) with ESMTP id <20000927072447.KTYW18281.mail01@phoenixdsl.com>; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 02:24:47 -0500 Message-ID: <39D249F4.AA65FE23@phoenixdsl.com> Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 15:26:44 -0400 From: 1mazda1 <1mazda1@phoenixdsl.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Alfred Perlstein , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pulse poll at Borland References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000926143546.00cf7a80@localhost> <3073B3378589D411B21600508BAF32AA012349@EXCHANGE> <4.3.2.7.2.20000926143546.00cf7a80@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000926184939.04d83ae0@localhost> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------96DCDDDF060FCE5351EFB5A4" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --------------96DCDDDF060FCE5351EFB5A4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In short, Borland needs a serious wake-up call. Agreed I did go to there sight to vote because I am a die hard fan.. now BSD 245 in 2nd and - BeOS in 1st w/ 499 Mac in 3rd w/ 234.. But then I though why bother because really are they going to do anything?? I doubt it, it's just a crappy marketing scheme to get us to go there to hopefully click on any of there crappy ad's to make them more money so they DON'T support FreeBSD....Doh!! Yep. Alas, BeOS (!) was beating us about 2:1. > >People still use that? Yep. Believe it or not, I even have a BeBox in the lab. --Brett WHY??????????? 1mazda1 Brett Glass wrote: > At 03:00 PM 9/26/2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > >* Brett Glass [000926 13:37] wrote: > >> Yep. Alas, BeOS (!) was beating us about 2:1. > > > >People still use that? > > Yep. Believe it or not, I even have a BeBox in the lab. > > --Brett > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message --------------96DCDDDF060FCE5351EFB5A4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In short, Borland needs a serious wake-up call.
Agreed I did go to there sight to vote because I am a die hard fan..

now BSD  245 in 2nd and - BeOS in 1st w/ 499 Mac in 3rd w/ 234..

But then I though why bother because really are they going to do anything??
I doubt it, it's just a crappy marketing scheme to get us to go there to hopefully click on any of there crappy ad's to make them more money so they DON'T support FreeBSD....Doh!!
 

Yep. Alas, BeOS (!) was beating us about 2:1.
>
>People still use that?

Yep. Believe it or not, I even have a BeBox in the lab.

--Brett

WHY???????????
 

1mazda1

Brett Glass wrote:

At 03:00 PM 9/26/2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote:

>* Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org> [000926 13:37] wrote:
>> Yep. Alas, BeOS (!) was beating us about 2:1.
>
>People still use that?

Yep. Believe it or not, I even have a BeBox in the lab.

--Brett

To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message

--------------96DCDDDF060FCE5351EFB5A4-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 27 0:30:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail01.phoenixdsl.com (mail01.phoenixdsl.com [216.178.151.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6427A37B42C for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 00:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phoenixdsl.com ([64.32.158.84]) by mail01.phoenixdsl.com (InterMail vK.4.02.00.05.01 201-232-116-105-101 license da4da6e5fc829a7858725236bede8deb) with ESMTP id <20000927072953.KUCK18281.mail01@phoenixdsl.com>; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 02:29:53 -0500 Message-ID: <39D24B29.EC4EF07C@phoenixdsl.com> Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 15:31:53 -0400 From: 1mazda1 <1mazda1@phoenixdsl.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, cjclark@reflexnet.net Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , Haikal Saadh , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: So what do (unix) sysadmins do anyway? References: <20000924224054.H59015@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> <20000926012746.Q59015@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org cjclark@reflexnet.net You are tapped! what did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed or what??? wow 1mazda1 "Crist J . Clark" wrote: > On Mon, Sep 25, 2000 at 10:11:15AM -0700, Jason C. Wells wrote: > > On Sun, 24 Sep 2000, Crist J . Clark wrote: > > > > > > Coming from the environment that I do, I state that there is no such thing > > > > as a system failure. > > > > > > Huh. NOT! The admin's at our office spend a _lot_ of time fixing > > > systems that die from hardware failures. Sure, you have backups (data > > > > Yes, things break. I agree with everything you have said except the "NOT" > > part. Allow me to explain my position. My position is: We must hold > > _people_ culpable for systems failures and not fall into the trap that the > > system is to blame. (I use system here as an abstraction.) > > > > Did the hardware fail due to a design flaw? Did the hardware fail due to > > some error on the installers part? Did the software have a bug? Does the > > hardware have an advertised mean time between failures but wasn't replaced > > because an organization didn't implement a scheduled obsolecense plan? > > There is, or could be, (should even?) a human factor behind each one of > > these questions. > > > > The environment that I came from consistently placed the burden of success > > or failure on humans. We always discussed incidents. We examined lessons > > learned. Almost invariably, the conclusion one ended up drawing was that > > some person or persons made error(s) which led to an incident. > > > > Yes spurious system failures occured. After they did though, efforts were > > made to ensure that it never happened again. This mentality made safe > > work of a dangerous business. All of the lessons that produced this > > mentality were written in blood. > > My scholastic training is in chemical engineering. One of the things > we had to study was safety. Acctually, one of the first things you > learn is that there is no such thing as absolute safety, only relative > levels of risk. If you think you can make _anything_ failure free, you > are reaching for a fool's dream. It is also makes life _more_ > dangerous since in such an environment, people end up putting efforts > into concealing risk rather than open efforts to minimize and quantify > it. > > It is also often not fruitful to try to assign blame to > problems. People are not prescient, and they cannot see every possible > failure mode and plan for it. Fear of blame can again lead to hiding > the risks rather than dealing with them in a more productive > manner. (Unfortunately, the legal establishment also is often > counter-productive, the ol' Risk Free Society falicy.) There is a > difference between a mistake made in good faith and negligence. > > Going back to some of your examples, modern computer hardware fails > and often no good reason will be found (or the effort to determine the > cause is not worth the cost; replace, clean up, move on). The mean > failure time is just what the 'mean' implies, an average, a > statistical quantity. An particular item may fail in half the mean > time, one quarter of the mean time, or it may run without problems for > ten times the design life. You have to accept the risk with which you > are comfortable and live with it. > > [snip] > > > My point is that is that a human is ultimately responsible. (At a minumum > > we end up cleaning up the mess.) This must be the way it is. If we get > > to the point where the machine is the excuse, then why bother? > > This is simply a matter of definition. For the above piece of > hardware, if the manufacturere gave you an accurate mean design life, > but one particular card fails in half the time, who gets this > "ultimate responsibility?" In your model, it is whoever decided that > using that item for its design life was acceptable and everyone else > who then agreed with that determination. > > Well, now, we had a failure. We accepted a level of risk, and shucks, > we lost the crap shoot. But we had accepted the risk, the hardware may > fail before the mean lifetime. No need to make excuses. No need for > blame. C'est la vie. > > > Now I come back to our original posters question. A system administator > > is needed for all the reasons you described. A system administrator > > should also be making those needed value judgements to prevent system > > failure. I hope that we have both provided a variety of reasons that a > > system administrator is important. I hope we have answered the question, > > "What does a system administrator do anyway?" > > A system administrator has finite resources, finite time, finite > money, finite knowledge, and even a finite set of tools (hardware or > software) to choose from. You always need to accept a level of risk, > and given the above constraints, you need to decide what level is > acceptable given the resources you have and make sure everyone is > comfortable. (And if you have anyone that says they want it > risk-free... well, there are some out there who just don't get > it. When they go outside to smoke a cigarette, talk some sense into > them.) Then, when failure does come, have your plans ready, but always > assume there are failure modes that you missed. > > > OBTW. There is a double standard in this respect regarding computers. We > > do not accept the failure of the Corvair or the Audi TT or the Boeing 737. > > When the Tacoma Narrows falls we don't just say, "Sometime bridges crash. > > Get over it." > > But planes _do_ crash. Bridges _do_ collapse. And there will be more > of both in the future. Trying to build a plane with no risk of > crashing or a bridge that could never ever collapse is not the mindset > of the engineers really working these things. Thanks to HMS Titanic, > the folk wisdom of this culture has come to realize there is no such a > beast as an unsinkable ship. It still needs to sink in that the same > goes for airplanes, cars, nuclear powerplants, medical treatments, > computers, and anything else you care to name. > > > People accept computer failures as a matter of course. > > That was not a good analogy. If that Boeing 737 failed because of a > computer error, you bet it would not be considered > acceptable. Remember that Arianne that failed a few years back do to > bad flight software? The computers on the space shuttle fail > regularly, but they have backups. When a desktop computer or a web > server fails, there generally are not lives in the balance. There can > be money at stake, but if you loose $2000 of productivity to fix a > server during its lifetime, you are better off living with that risk > than shelling out and extra $5000 to put fancier and redundant parts > in or $20000 to build a dedicated backup. Yes, there are often zero or > near-zero cost ways to reduce risk, but only to a certain level and > those "zero cost" fixes frequently have hidden costs (your better off > spending $10000 a year fixing problems that arise because you don't > have a guru-level sysadmin if it's gonna cost you $30000 a year more > to have said guru as opposed to a capable-but-non-guru sysadmin). > > > It doesn't have to > > be that way. A human value judgement somewhere along the line leads to > > failure. > > Yes, I am afraid it does have to be this way. It is undoubtably > possible to greatly reduce the failures that we see in today's computer > systems, but there will always be failures. The human value judgements > should not be looked at as "leading to failure," but rather one should > make value judgments about what levels of risk (rates of failure) are > acceptable for the case at hand. > -- > Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 27 0:33:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED68437B43C; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 00:33:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA61924; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 09:33:37 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Brad Knowles Cc: Siegbert Baude , questions@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pulse poll at Borland References: <3073B3378589D411B21600508BAF32AA012345@EXCHANGE> <39D11CB1.78C07758@gmx.de> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 27 Sep 2000 09:33:36 +0200 In-Reply-To: Brad Knowles's message of "Wed, 27 Sep 2000 00:09:56 +0200" Message-ID: Lines: 18 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles writes: > Me, I'll vote for BeOS. From everything I've heard, we would be > far better off without them, and I'll be happy if they waste their > time on a totally dead-end OS like that. I wouldn't call BeOS a dead-end OS. It suffers from dead-end marketing, but it's actually a very nice desktop/multimedia OS. Regarding what you've heard about Borland, maybe you'd be better off making up your own opinion instead of relying too much on what other people say. Delphi has a rather fanatical horde of opponents - mostly people who dislike RAD, and attempt to discredit Delphi because it's the oldest and most prominent RAD language - and far from all the criticism it has received is deserved. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 27 0:34:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99C7737B422 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 00:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA08056; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 00:32:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA6CaaLp; Wed Sep 27 00:32:04 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA20534; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 00:34:33 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200009270734.AAA20534@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: CD writers - recommendations To: dan@langille.org Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 07:34:33 +0000 (GMT) Cc: 1mazda1@phoenixdsl.com (1mazda1), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200009270707.TAA30714@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> from "Dan Langille" at Sep 27, 2000 07:07:30 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I've also been told that IDE cd writers under FreeBSD are a problem. > What problem, I don't know. Anyone have any clues? I have experienced failures of IDE CDROM writers when a system is under load, since IDE does not support bus detach, and you have to feed the thing to keep it going. Without the ability to detach a disk operation and concurrently start the next write operation, you can fail. In a floppy driver or even a normal disk driver, you would simply reissue the failed operation; on a CDROM writer, by its nature, this can fail. I have learned the hard way on several disks (I thought the first was a fluke) to not load a system in any way, if it is doing an IDE CDROM burn. On the flip side of this, they are cheaper, and if you are willing to dedicate a machine for it, and copy over the CDROM images before burning them, instead of using NFS to access them, IDE can work with about a 1 in 14 loss rate (compared to a 1 in 72 loss rate for the Plextor SCSI I've used). NB: The numbers on the Plextor are skewed down, since I have not burnt 144 disks on the thing with a loss of 2, so I don't know anything other than the statistical failure; on the other hand, the 1 in 14 number for the IDE I used (don't know the brand, sorry: it was supposed top of the line) is a valid statistic over about 50 disks. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 27 0:35: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 566EF37B422 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 00:34:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA61934; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 09:34:55 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: John Galt Cc: Omar Thameen , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: deja.com/usenet/ service References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 27 Sep 2000 09:34:54 +0200 In-Reply-To: John Galt's message of "Wed, 27 Sep 2000 00:04:06 -0600 (MDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Galt writes: > Unless it got a 200, don't worry--I got points on FC for CDNOW, and I > don't see it filing for ch13 anytime soon... Well, Deja fired their CEO (only a few months after he was hired) and laid off about a third of their staff. Doesn't look good. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 27 0:35:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B37937B422 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 00:35:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA61948; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 09:35:41 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: John Galt Cc: Dan Langille , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CD writers - recommendations References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 27 Sep 2000 09:35:40 +0200 In-Reply-To: John Galt's message of "Wed, 27 Sep 2000 00:10:34 -0600 (MDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Galt writes: > SCSI are better period. IDE does the processing on the main processor, > while SCSI has its own to allow the main processor to hiccough a couple of > times during the burn without ruining the burn (as much). Bollocks. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 27 0:50:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74EAE37B424; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 00:50:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA15554; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 00:47:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAoka4pE; Wed Sep 27 00:47:00 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA20729; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 00:49:52 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200009270749.AAA20729@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Pulse poll at Borland To: des@ofug.org (Dag-Erling Smorgrav) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 07:49:52 +0000 (GMT) Cc: blk@skynet.be (Brad Knowles), siegbert.baude@gmx.de (Siegbert Baude), questions@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" at Sep 27, 2000 09:33:36 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org DES wrote: > Brad Knowles writes: > > Me, I'll vote for BeOS. From everything I've heard, we would be > > far better off without them, and I'll be happy if they waste their > > time on a totally dead-end OS like that. > > I wouldn't call BeOS a dead-end OS. It suffers from dead-end > marketing, but it's actually a very nice desktop/multimedia OS. I have a very low developer registration number for BeOS, similar to my low number for NeXT and Macintosh. BeOS has its uses, but it is not a good network client, since it does not establish credentials at login, and then associate them with processes as they are started. Windows95 had a minor version of this failing, in that, at the login screen, you could do a ctrl-alt-esc, select "run" and run "explorer", and get in without providing a credential to the OS. You can get around this problem in Windows by providing a pseudo network provider, hooking the (undocumented) password provider interface (there are 3 manifest constants that I reverse engineered, and Microsoft wanted $2500 to document for me, which you need to do this), and making login be mandatory. There is no similar method of forcing the user to provide a credential in BeOS, unfortuantely, or I would have written SMB and AppleTalk clients (and maybe NetWare, since clients are infinitely easier than servers). For the same reason, until the SMB protocol after LANMAN2, it was not possible to ship per user credentials from a UNIX client over a single connection (1 session = 1 credential for all UNIX users), so it was not worthwhile pursuing an SMB desktop client FS under UNIX. As it is, NetWare for UNIX Client (NUC) was barely able to support this on UnixWare, and then only because UnixWare had a GUI, and could therefore support a session manager that could asynchronously pop up a credential request from the kernel when a user space access attempt first occured on a network volume. FreeBSD does not have similar capability, unless you force users to perform preauthentication, cache passwords (ala Windows95), or run a session manager, and force users onto the console (where screen memory can be manipulated to provide a pop up) or into X windows. Until this is fixed, BeOS will not be a good client OS, and it will not be a good Internet appliance OS (unless you are willing to run all appliance services in the same portection domain, and do all user-based credential enforcement in each and every one of your server implementations. All that said, I am a huge fan, and hope they fix the problem, and are very successful, going forward. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 27 2: 9:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 530C837B424; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 02:09:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id CAA07616; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 02:09:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 02:09:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Maxim Sobolev Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/devel/commoncpp Makefile ports/devel/commoncpp/patches patch-aa ports/devel/commoncpp/pkg PLIST In-Reply-To: <200009270817.BAA85717@freefall.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, Maxim Sobolev wrote: > sobomax 2000/09/27 01:17:17 PDT > > Modified files: > devel/commoncpp Makefile > devel/commoncpp/pkg PLIST > Added files: > devel/commoncpp/patches patch-aa > Log: > Numerous improvements: > - properly use libc_r; > - provide hack around missing thread-safe version of fpathconf(1) syscall if > OSVERSION < 41100; > - remove ugly direct call to configure script from post-extract target; > - don't add -1.2 suffix to shared libraries; > - bump PORTREVISION to make kris happy ;). Yay! Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 27 2:57: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2537937B423; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 02:57:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 001F318207; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 11:57:01 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3073B3378589D411B21600508BAF32AA012345@EXCHANGE> <39D11CB1.78C07758@gmx.de> Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 11:33:52 +0200 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Pulse poll at Borland Cc: Siegbert Baude , questions@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:33 AM +0200 2000/9/27, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Regarding what you've heard about Borland, maybe you'd be better off > making up your own opinion instead of relying too much on what other > people say. I haven't use Borland's development packages myself, at least not anything since some of the original versions of TurboPascal many, many years ago. However, I am familiar with their overall attitude, and the fact that not a single whit of unique work has ever come out of that company -- everything good they've had is something they've bought from someone else, and then slapped their name onto the package, with the usual circumstances that it is brought down into the gutter (along with all other Borland products) in very short time. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 27 6:25:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from clifford.inch.com (clifford.inch.com [207.240.140.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75F4137B424 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 06:25:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from omar@localhost) by clifford.inch.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) id IAA10432; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 08:22:36 -0400 Message-ID: <20000927082236.A10399@clifford.inch.com> Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 08:22:36 -0400 From: Omar Thameen To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , John Galt Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: deja.com/usenet/ service References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Wed, Sep 27, 2000 at 09:34:54AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org So basically, no one uses anything but deja.com for usenet searches? With all the bandwidth, disk, and cpu required, I can see where their monthly expenses would make their revenue-on-advertising model difficult. OTOH, if no one else is offering this service, it seems to me there should be a way to make it work. Heck, I'd pay $10/month for access to that database of information if I had to. Omar On Wed, Sep 27, 2000 at 09:34:54AM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > John Galt writes: > > Unless it got a 200, don't worry--I got points on FC for CDNOW, and I > > don't see it filing for ch13 anytime soon... > > Well, Deja fired their CEO (only a few months after he was hired) and > laid off about a third of their staff. Doesn't look good. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 27 6:50: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C801337B424 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 06:50:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id E66D7755B; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 06:53:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3D501D8E; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 06:53:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 06:53:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Dan Langille Cc: 1mazda1 <1mazda1@phoenixdsl.com>, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CD writers - recommendations In-Reply-To: <200009270707.TAA30714@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, Dan Langille wrote: :On 27 Sep 2000, at 15:06, 1mazda1 wrote: : :> Q. Does anyone have a recommendation for a cd writer? :> Ya any Plextor that is SCSI / look at any of the reviews... :> make sure it has a good size read buffer :You are not the first to recommend Plextor (people I know on IRC :mentioned them to me). The other I've seen recommended is the Ricoh :Internal 6/4/24 SCSI, so I'll be looking into that one too. I've got a Plextor 8/20 SCSI CD-R at home with 4mb cache on it. It's never screwed up a burn. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 27 7:19:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from be-well.ilk.org (lowellg.ne.mediaone.net [24.147.184.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0542A37B423 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 07:19:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lowell@localhost) by be-well.ilk.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e8REJ1403388; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 10:19:01 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lowell) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Pulse poll at Borland X-No-Archive: yes References: <8qrar9$1ccg$1@FreeBSD.csie.NCTU.edu.tw> From: Lowell Gilbert Date: 27 Sep 2000 10:19:01 -0400 In-Reply-To: blk@skynet.be's message of "27 Sep 2000 07:18:01 +0800" Message-ID: <444s31diju.fsf@lowellg.ne.mediaone.net> Lines: 9 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org blk@skynet.be (Brad Knowles) writes: > Me, I'll vote for BeOS. From everything I've heard, we would be > far better off without them, and I'll be happy if they waste their > time on a totally dead-end OS like that. I have no intention of telling Borland that I'm interested in their products on a given platform unless I would be willing to pay for them. Which, despite the fact that I happily did so in the past, I'm not. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 27 7:22:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from onizuka.vmunix.org (onizuka.vmunix.org [194.221.152.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07E4637B422 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 07:22:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (1457 bytes) by onizuka.vmunix.org via sendmail with stdio (sender: ) (ident using unix) id for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 16:22:49 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: From: torstenb@vmunix.org (Torsten Blum) Subject: Re: CD writers - recommendations In-Reply-To: <200009270707.TAA30714@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> "from Dan Langille at Sep 27, 2000 07:07:30 pm" To: dan@langille.org Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 16:22:49 +0200 (CEST) Cc: 1mazda1 <1mazda1@phoenixdsl.com>, chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL82 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dan Langille wrote: > > Q. Does anyone have a recommendation for a cd writer? > > Ya any Plextor that is SCSI / look at any of the reviews... > > make sure it has a good size read buffer > > You are not the first to recommend Plextor (people I know on IRC > mentioned them to me). The other I've seen recommended is the Ricoh > Internal 6/4/24 SCSI, so I'll be looking into that one too. I have to recommend Plextor too. First, I've got two of them (PX-412C and a PX-W8220T) and never had a problem with them. Same for my Plextor CD-ROM drives (three PX-32CS, two PX-83C and one PX-63C). Another good reason to buy a Plextor CD-R/CD-RW is that there is a freebsd tool to update the firmware from the author of cdrecord. That's IMHO a big plus. Oh, and I saw that cdrecord 1.9 clains to support BURN proof[1], so buying a newer Plextor drive probably is a good idea. [1] http://www.plextor.be/English/technical/burnproof.html -tb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 27 10: 9:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 921A137B423; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 10:09:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08235; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 11:08:27 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000927110459.04d9b150@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 11:06:37 -0600 To: Terry Lambert , des@ofug.org (Dag-Erling Smorgrav) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Pulse poll at Borland Cc: blk@skynet.be (Brad Knowles), siegbert.baude@gmx.de (Siegbert Baude), questions@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200009270749.AAA20729@usr05.primenet.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:49 AM 9/27/2000, Terry Lambert wrote: >I have a very low developer registration number for BeOS, >similar to my low number for NeXT and Macintosh. I was an early adopter myself. However, it seems to me that BeOS will be a victim of the Linux craze. It'll be squeezed between Microsoft's quest for world dominance (on one side) and Stallman's quest for mass destruction (on the other). --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 27 10:22:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D47C37B440; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 10:22:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08441; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 11:22:26 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000927111427.048114f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 11:20:37 -0600 To: 1mazda1 <1mazda1@phoenixdsl.com> From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Pulse poll at Borland Cc: Alfred Perlstein , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <39D249F4.AA65FE23@phoenixdsl.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000926143546.00cf7a80@localhost> <3073B3378589D411B21600508BAF32AA012349@EXCHANGE> <4.3.2.7.2.20000926143546.00cf7a80@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000926184939.04d83ae0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:26 PM 9/27/2000, 1mazda1 wrote: >> Yep. Believe it or not, I even have a BeBox in the lab. > >> --Brett > >WHY??????????? It holds the door open. ;-) Seriously, it's actually a pretty spiffy machine, with its Wurlizer-style jukebox LEDs and all. I'd run NetBSD on it if they could get SMP working, but right now I'd waste half the CPU if I didn't keep BeOS on it. As for Borland, it's true that they're sticks in the mud, but it's nonetheless highly embarrassing that the BeBoys are outvoting FreeBSD 2:1. Borland will probably throw that up to anyone who asks for FreeBSD support in the future. Maybe the ballot box is being stuffed by a BeBot? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 27 11: 0:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from inconnu.isu.edu (inconnu.isu.edu [134.50.8.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9872E37B422 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 11:00:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (galt@localhost) by inconnu.isu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA29338; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 12:00:36 -0600 Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 12:00:35 -0600 (MDT) From: John Galt To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Dan Langille , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CD writers - recommendations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Adaptec 1542 has a Z-80 onboard to share in the disk processing tasks, I'm betting that the better cards have beefier processors. I have never seen a GP processor on an IDE card. There's a coprocessor inherent in the SCSI spec, there isn't one in the IDE spec. Whether or not the last part about the hiccough is right, I know that burning a CD is datapipe intensive, and in an IDE that means that the datapipe may be compromised when multitasking, the same mulitasking has a slightly lesser chance of breaking the datapipe in SCSI, since the datapipe is actually controlloed off the main processor if everything goes as planned (which it hardly ever does). IDE was a stopgap until SCSI became cheaper: it never did, so now we have ATAPI and other bastardizations of the IDE spec, all of which share one trait: the processing is all focused on the main CPU, not an auxillary processor. On 27 Sep 2000, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > John Galt writes: > > SCSI are better period. IDE does the processing on the main processor, > > while SCSI has its own to allow the main processor to hiccough a couple of > > times during the burn without ruining the burn (as much). > > Bollocks. > > DES > -- Galt's sci-fi paradox: Stormtroopers versus Redshirts to the death. Who is John Galt? galt@inconnu.isu.edu, that's who! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 27 13:37:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.com (gw.nectar.com [208.42.49.153]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C8F837B422 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 13:37:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hamlet.nectar.com (hamlet.nectar.com [10.0.1.102]) by gw.nectar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2E261925D; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 15:37:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nectar@localhost) by hamlet.nectar.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA40993; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 15:37:34 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from nectar@spawn.nectar.com) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 15:37:34 -0500 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pulse poll at Borland Message-ID: <20000927153734.A40667@hamlet.nectar.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000926143546.00cf7a80@localhost> <3073B3378589D411B21600508BAF32AA012349@EXCHANGE> <4.3.2.7.2.20000926143546.00cf7a80@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000926184939.04d83ae0@localhost> <39D249F4.AA65FE23@phoenixdsl.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000927111427.048114f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000927111427.048114f0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Wed, Sep 27, 2000 at 11:20:37AM -0600 X-Url: http://www.nectar.com/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 27, 2000 at 11:20:37AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > Maybe the ballot box is being stuffed by a BeBot? It is probably being stuffed with BeOS votes in the same way that it is being stuffed with FreeBSD votes, i.e. by many users who have little intention of ever buying the vaporous product in question, but who have been encouraged to vote for their favorite operating system anyway. Honk if you love run-on sentences -- Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / jvidrine@verio.net / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 27 13:42:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E423F37B423 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 13:42:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA10637; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 14:42:33 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000927144004.04b2a3c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 14:42:27 -0600 To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Pulse poll at Borland Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000927153734.A40667@hamlet.nectar.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000927111427.048114f0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000926143546.00cf7a80@localhost> <3073B3378589D411B21600508BAF32AA012349@EXCHANGE> <4.3.2.7.2.20000926143546.00cf7a80@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000926184939.04d83ae0@localhost> <39D249F4.AA65FE23@phoenixdsl.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000927111427.048114f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:37 PM 9/27/2000, Jacques A. Vidrine wrote: >It is probably being stuffed with BeOS votes in the same way that >it is being stuffed with FreeBSD votes, i.e. by many users who have >little intention of ever buying the vaporous product in question, >but who have been encouraged to vote for their favorite operating >system anyway. The problem is that the ignorant marketroids believe the results. >Honk if you love run-on sentences Honk honk honk; honk honk honk -- honk honk honk honk (honk honk honk) -- honk honk honk honk, honk honk honk honk honk honk honk honk; honk honk honk, honk Honk honk honk; honk honk honk honk honk honk honk. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 27 14:19:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 301E137B423; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 14:19:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA06941; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 13:53:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAslaq6m; Wed Sep 27 13:52:45 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA25048; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 13:55:09 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200009272055.NAA25048@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Pulse poll at Borland To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 20:55:08 +0000 (GMT) Cc: 1mazda1@phoenixdsl.com (1mazda1), bright@wintelcom.net (Alfred Perlstein), chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000927111427.048114f0@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Sep 27, 2000 11:20:37 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >> Yep. Believe it or not, I even have a BeBox in the lab. > > > >> --Brett > > > >WHY??????????? > > It holds the door open. ;-) > > Seriously, it's actually a pretty spiffy machine, with > its Wurlizer-style jukebox LEDs and all. I'd run NetBSD on > it if they could get SMP working, but right now I'd waste > half the CPU if I didn't keep BeOS on it. The BeBox will probably never run an SMP BSD, because BSD SMP work is tied too tightly to the MESI cache coherency model. The dual PPC 603 BeBox cheats. Since the 603 does not have the signal lines for an IPI based cache invalidation or update, the MMU was omitted from the BeBox, and the MMU control lines used to implement SMP capability. In practice, this means that the machine is somewhat slower than it needs to be (by one bus wait cycle per invalidation event), and that it uses an MEI model, not an MESI model. BSD SMP does not have the synchronization points necessary to cope with the additional explicit invalidations required in MEI in order to maintain interprocessor state coherency. PS: FWIW, I'm the one who lobbied JLG, successfully, to release the BeBox programming specifications needed to get a non-Be OS on the thing. It's a damn shame that they quit building the hardware. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 27 15:16:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from athserv.otenet.gr (athserv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B57437B423 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 15:16:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b110.otenet.gr [195.167.121.238]) by athserv.otenet.gr (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e8RMF6417826; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 01:15:06 +0300 (EET DST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e8QMhGg13457; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 01:43:16 +0300 (EEST) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 01:43:15 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pulse poll at Borland Message-ID: <20000927014315.A13292@hades.hell.gr> References: <3073B3378589D411B21600508BAF32AA012345@EXCHANGE> <39D11CB1.78C07758@gmx.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: ; from blk@skynet.be on Wed, Sep 27, 2000 at 12:09:56AM +0200 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 27, 2000 at 12:09:56AM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 12:01 AM +0200 2000/9/27, Siegbert Baude wrote: > > > Hey, my vote just got us in front of MacOS X with 213 vs. 212 votes! But we > > still need another 260 to catch BeOS. How many people are > >subscribed here? :-) > > Me, I'll vote for BeOS. From everything I've heard, we would be > far better off without them, and I'll be happy if they waste their > time on a totally dead-end OS like that. I will second this. Borland has been a truly short-sighted company in the 90's and I do not even try to convince myself that an online poll is all they need to make them stop supporting one and only one platform. -- Giorgos Keramidas, For my public pgp2 key: finger -l keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 27 18: 5:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 370D337B43E for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 18:05:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-71-185.dialup.hiwaay.net [216.180.71.185]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e8S14q715612 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 20:04:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id e8S01ea28683 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 19:01:40 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <200009280001.e8S01ea28683@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CD writers - recommendations In-Reply-To: Message from John Galt of "Wed, 27 Sep 2000 12:00:35 MDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 19:01:40 -0500 From: David Kelly Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Galt writes: > > Adaptec 1542 has a Z-80 onboard to share in the disk processing tasks, I'm > betting that the better cards have beefier processors. That poor little Z-80 on my 1542CF couldn't do 5 million NOP's/second, much less keep up with the FAST SCSI 10M bytes/sec data rate. Seems like the Z80 was clocked at 5 MHz? Then was it between 3 to 8 clocks/ instruction? There are custom scripting engines in the 2940 and Symbios SCSI cards. Lesser SCSI cards, probably the Adaptec 2906, are little more than a data latch and line drivers. > I have never seen a GP processor on an IDE card. No place to put one. At it simplest, an IDE "interface" is only an extension of the CPU bus. The CPU uses this IDE bus to tickle registers in the IDE device which emulate the old Western Digital HD controller. Last time I saw a discrete IDE interface it was little more than one 74LS245 and one 74LS373. > [...]cheaper[...] For all the deleted verbage, that is the one word you used that makes sense. IDE devices are cheaper. They are cheaper because in their PC market "cheap" sells better than "quality". In the SCSI market if you lack quality then you are burnt toast. Lately I had the opportunity to select parts and assemble a new machine. "Reliable" and "value" was important. Raw performance was not. Purchased a 15G IBM UDMA100 HD. Selected IBM because I believe they are building the best HD's these days, and the $120 price was only $20 or $30 more than a cheap Maxtor or Western Digital. Connected to a UDMA33 MB (Asus P3B-F). Was awfully pleased when bonnie reported over 20MB/sec sustained in most tests using a file twice the size of core. Gee, that's roughly twice as fast as any of my UWSCSI systems. "systat -v" routinely shows 150 or more tps. Noticed the 64k per transfer limit must have been removed as often the blocksize field was ###'d. Got that machine connected to another via 100baseT full duplex thru a switch and decided to see what it could do. Got 8.5MB/sec sustained that way. Repeated using the same file and got 11.5 MB/sec playing the file out of cache. Same HD in an old junk AMD 5x86/133 (a 133 MHz 486) can't do DMA and sucks most of the CPU cycles to do over 1 MB/sec, while an Adaptec 2940 and IBM DCHS does a little better on 1/5 the CPU utilization. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 27 18: 5:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50A3237B509 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 18:05:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-71-185.dialup.hiwaay.net [216.180.71.185]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e8S15A707622; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 20:05:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id e8RNP5a28632; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 18:25:05 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <200009272325.e8RNP5a28632@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Terry Lambert Cc: dan@langille.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: CD writers - recommendations In-reply-to: Message from Terry Lambert of "Wed, 27 Sep 2000 07:34:33 -0000." <200009270734.AAA20534@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 18:25:05 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > NB: The numbers on the Plextor are skewed down, since I have > not burnt 144 disks on the thing with a loss of 2, so I don't > know anything other than the statistical failure; on the other > hand, the 1 in 14 number for the IDE I used (don't know the > brand, sorry: it was supposed top of the line) is a valid > statistic over about 50 disks. Having done a couple hundred in prior employment, I'd say 1:72 is about right for *media* failure. Its not as if they can 100% test a CD-R. My prime burning machine was a Pentium 133, 24 MB, FreeBSD 2.2.5 to 2.2.8 (forgot), Adaptec 2940A, and most everything SCSI was external, one device per box, and probably over the limit on SCSI cable length. The CDR was a Yamaha CDR-100 or -102 (one of the first 4x). Kept images on Seagate (2) 4G Barracudas, the 1st generation, the STxxx150 number comes to mind. Had at least one each 4mm and 8mm tape drive. Stuff got moved around a fair bit. Had the vn device configured in the kernel so I could mount my images for verification. When duplicating CD's, would dd 2 blocks less than a cdrecord inquiry would report were on the disk to avoid the I/O error that would ensue if we tried to read them. Grab an md5 signature of the image, and a manifest of md5's of the files on the disk. Then I'd mount that image and recursive diff verify it against the original still mounted in the internal IDE CDROM. Often while burning it on the CD-R at the same time. Then I'd always put the new CD-R in the IDE drive, mount, and verify again against the md5 signatures. All of this verifying paid off, as others in our business were using Windows and were often shipping coasters. This was all low volume 1 to 5 disc runs. Boss really wanted me to do it in Windows too, but we never found a good way to verify the results. Decided the DJGPP Win32 Unix Utilities was overkill to get diff and md5sum. Made about 2 coasters for unknown reasons. More for having written a bad image in the first place (oops, it was a multi-session master). Got to the point if something needed to be done and there was a hole to put it in, did it, no matter what state the CD-R was in. Used tcopy a lot. A lot of the time the CD was copied from tape. Machine was also connected to the company network, ran Apache, samba, and Netatalk. XFree86. And was my primary desktop computer. The only problem was the vn code had a gotcha where the kernel might panic after umounting an image and then detaching it from the vn. Learned not to do that when the CD-R was burning. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 27 19:38:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from heorot.1nova.com (sub24-23.member.dsl-only.net [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28FA937B424 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 19:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 29414328D; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 19:02:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E2E8328C for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 19:02:56 +0000 (GMT) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 19:02:55 +0000 (GMT) From: Rick Hamell To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Unix 2000... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm in Windows 2000 training all this week. (Ick... but the company is paying for it...) Everytime I turn around, there is yet another Unix concept staring me in the face.... :) there is an /etc directory now with hosts, services and protocalls all in there. The file system now has DTF (distributed tree filesystem(?) which can span hard drives/computers. Windows 2000 now supports the concept of MOUNTing directories (so that you're not limited to 26 drives/partitions.) AND now has "groups," You can put people into certain groups and they don't have (or do have) access to certain devices/files... I've been taking to calling it Unix 2000 in the class! :) Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 27 20:31:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop2.gte.net (smtppop2pub.gte.net [206.46.170.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46B1F37B422 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 20:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-144-246.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.144.246]) by smtppop2.gte.net with ESMTP ; id WAA30512908 Wed, 27 Sep 2000 22:29:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA01160; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 20:31:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 20:31:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Clark Message-Id: <200009280331.UAA01160@gte.net> To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, hamellr@heorot.1nova.com Subject: Re: Unix 2000... In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I heard that they were working on adding symbolic links as well. [RC] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 27 21: 4:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B3F737B422 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 21:04:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-71-185.dialup.hiwaay.net [216.180.71.185]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e8S44J722281; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 23:04:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id e8S42ga32368; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 23:02:54 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <200009280402.e8S42ga32368@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Rick Hamell Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Unix 2000... In-reply-to: Message from Rick Hamell of "Tue, 26 Sep 2000 19:02:55 -0000." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 23:02:41 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rick Hamell writes: > > I've been taking to > calling it Unix 2000 in the class! :) Wouldn't "Unix-1984" be more appropriate? -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 27 21:19:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop3.gte.net (smtppop3pub.gte.net [206.46.170.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0727C37B422 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 21:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-144-246.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.144.246]) by smtppop3.gte.net with ESMTP for ; id XAA30473165 Wed, 27 Sep 2000 23:14:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA01234 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 21:18:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 21:18:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Clark Message-Id: <200009280418.VAA01234@gte.net> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Ideas about network interfaces. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org A few ideas that've been in the back of my head. Would it make sense to have network device names abstracted one layer more? In other words, would it make it easier for new users, if all network drivers were mapped to something like et0? This might remove some of the need for rewriting rc.firewall on a newly isntalled system. With a symbolic name for interfaces, there could one that defaulted to deny everything. Being able to partition one FreeBSD system into multiple virtual routers would be a nice cabability as well. I wonder if that sort of thing would be possible, without totally gutting the network stack. I've heard of "capabilities" being brought over into FreeBSD. Would this eventually lead to a version of FreeBSD that knows even more about running processes? I hoping that eventually, FreeBSD will be able to "fink" on bad processes. I've often wondered that relying on a sysadmin to figure out which process went south is less than optimal. Sorry, that sentence didn't come out right. At the moment, the BSDs are the bright spot in the OS universe. I have more hope that good things will come from them. UNIX continues to mature, but for all its glory, it has its rough spots too. An analogy, a weak one, would be ethernet. Ethernet has dominated the market. Its everywhere. But I'd argue that one of its biggest weaknesses is that it knows nothing of itself. When ethernet is overutilised, it just stops being optimal. Without a person figuring out what is going on, it just keeps bein suboptimal. ATM on the other hand, (if I understand it correctly), is aware of its limits. It hopefully would not allow itself to be oversubscribed. It either has the capacity to handle your traffic, or it does not. But either way it will tell you so. Or look at file systems. Why is any part of a disk ever allowd to be empty? It costs the same to keep them running, whether they're empty or full. Or look at interprocess signals. Why don't we have a standardized signal for "please store state, and shut down cleanly"? Or one for "please reload state, and return to service"? Thank you for taking the time to read these questions, and thank you for a forum to ask these kinds of questions. [RC] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 27 21:32:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CB4B37B422; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 21:32:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 13eVWo-0000Q5-00; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 22:42:38 -0600 Message-ID: <39D2CC3E.B7F0FB3D@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 22:42:38 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Maxim Sobolev , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FW: [CVS 1.11 has been released on 18 September] References: <39D0D51B.AC57C347@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > [moved from -developers to -chat] > > Maxim Sobolev writes: > > Following in the traditions of CVS, the code name for CVS 1.11 was Steelhead. > > I wonder, will CVS 1.12 (if it is ever released) be codenamed Bonehead? I think they've already picked Butthead. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 27 21:52:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.aracnet.com (mail2.aracnet.com [216.99.193.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC02A37B43C for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 21:52:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell1.aracnet.com (shell1.aracnet.com [216.99.193.21]) by mail2.aracnet.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e8S4qGl01317; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 21:52:16 -0700 Received: by shell1.aracnet.com (8.9.3) id VAA13678; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 21:52:14 -0700 Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 21:52:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Darren Pilgrim To: Rick Hamell Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unix 2000... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, Rick Hamell wrote: > I'm in Windows 2000 training all this week. (Ick... but the > company is paying for it...) Everytime I turn around, there is yet another > Unix concept staring me in the face.... :) there is an /etc directory now > with hosts, services and protocalls all in there. The file system now has > DTF (distributed tree filesystem(?) which can span hard > drives/computers. Windows 2000 now supports the concept of MOUNTing > directories (so that you're not limited to 26 drives/partitions.) AND now > has "groups," You can put people into certain groups and they don't have > (or do have) access to certain devices/files... I've been taking to > calling it Unix 2000 in the class! :) I've got a Win2kAS box I've been playing with at home, and I have to say it's drastically improved since NT4. For a small-time, non-critical server, it's a nice way to go, damned easy, anyway. But the startling number of superficial similarities to unix leaves one wondering about Microsoft's intentions. Are they finally starting to adopt the unix way of doing things for the purpose of making it easier to bring unix admins to NT, or are they doing it just to say, "Hey look! We do that too!"? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 27 22: 7:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from heorot.1nova.com (sub24-23.member.dsl-only.net [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72FD037B42C for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 22:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A8FBB328D; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 21:31:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 909E5328C; Tue, 26 Sep 2000 21:31:12 +0000 (GMT) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 21:31:12 +0000 (GMT) From: Rick Hamell To: Darren Pilgrim Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unix 2000... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > has "groups," You can put people into certain groups and they don't have > > (or do have) access to certain devices/files... I've been taking to > > calling it Unix 2000 in the class! :) > But the startling number of superficial similarities to unix leaves one > wondering about Microsoft's intentions. Are they finally starting to > adopt the unix way of doing things for the purpose of making it easier to > bring unix admins to NT, or are they doing it just to say, "Hey look! We > do that too!"? That's what I've been wondering... either that or it's "Hey... we can't be a monopoly, because we do it the same way as Unix!" My other thing is.... Windows 2k is NOT easy to setup if you do all the profiles and security that Microsoft wants you to use.. Plus, it seems like quite a few tools have migrated BACK to the command prompt... The more I get into it, the more like a new "graphical" Unix clone it feels like... granted it's a Unix clone with a Microsoft outlook on things. Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 27 22:26: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail3.aracnet.com (mail3.aracnet.com [216.99.193.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 020B737B42C for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 22:26:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell1.aracnet.com (shell1.aracnet.com [216.99.193.21]) by mail3.aracnet.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e8S5QAV08256; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 22:26:10 -0700 Received: by shell1.aracnet.com (8.9.3) id WAA17447; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 22:26:09 -0700 Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 22:26:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Darren Pilgrim To: Rick Hamell Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unix 2000... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > My other > thing is.... Windows 2k is NOT easy to setup if you do all the profiles > and security that Microsoft wants you to use.. Plus, it seems like > quite a few tools have migrated BACK to the command prompt... The more I > get into it, the more like a new "graphical" Unix clone it feels > like... granted it's a Unix clone with a Microsoft outlook on things. Nearly all of the setup you have to do can be scripted or automated in some way, including user profiles. Registry files and batch user profile creation are your friends. Of course Microsoft doesn't tell anyone you can merge a handful of registry files and do 98% of the configuration instantaneously, nor do they distribute the tools or docs for doing so. They'd rather sell you a five-figure MSCE course to teach you how to smash your head against Configuration Wizards properly. But I agree, 2k is a pain to setup manually. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 27 22:31:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9287F37B423 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 22:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e8S5V8N14773; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 22:31:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 22:31:08 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Robert Clark Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, hamellr@heorot.1nova.com Subject: Re: Unix 2000... Message-ID: <20000927223108.F7553@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <200009280331.UAA01160@gte.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <200009280331.UAA01160@gte.net>; from res03db2@gte.net on Wed, Sep 27, 2000 at 08:31:36PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Robert Clark [000927 20:31] wrote: > I heard that they were working on adding symbolic links as well. Microsoft has a hard time ignoring technology for more than 10 years, as their users eventually catch wind of things. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 27 22:45: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EFE637B422 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 22:44:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e8S5gs615035; Wed, 27 Sep 2000 22:42:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 22:42:54 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Robert Clark Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ideas about network interfaces. Message-ID: <20000927224254.H7553@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <200009280418.VAA01234@gte.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <200009280418.VAA01234@gte.net>; from res03db2@gte.net on Wed, Sep 27, 2000 at 09:18:38PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Robert Clark [000927 21:19] wrote: > A few ideas that've been in the back of my head. > > Would it make sense to have network device names abstracted one layer more? > > In other words, would it make it easier for new users, if all network > drivers were mapped to something like et0? > > This might remove some of the need for rewriting rc.firewall on a newly > isntalled system. > > With a symbolic name for interfaces, there could one that defaulted to > deny everything. This is why shell scripts allow for variables like: outside_interface="fxp0" > Being able to partition one FreeBSD system into multiple virtual routers > would be a nice cabability as well. I wonder if that sort of thing > would be possible, without totally gutting the network stack. A url explaining what a "virtual router" is would be nice, if you mean vlan, i'm pretty sure there's support: (from 'man ifconfig') vlan vlan_tag If the interface is a vlan pseudo interface, set the vlan tag value to vlan_tag. This value is a 16-bit number which is used to create an 802.1Q vlan header for packets sent from the vlan in- terface. Note that vlan and vlandev must both be set at the same time. If not I'm not sure what you mean. > I've heard of "capabilities" being brought over into FreeBSD. Would this > eventually lead to a version of FreeBSD that knows even more about > running processes? Er, we could associate more information with processes, but by nature FreeBSD knows as much about a process as a process does. > I hoping that eventually, FreeBSD will be able to "fink" on bad processes. > I've often wondered that relying on a sysadmin to figure out which > process went south is less than optimal. There exists tools to do such things in ports/security, i'm sure other things could be fitted into the system such as logging signals that are sent as well as file descriptors. > Sorry, that sentence didn't come out right. At the moment, the BSDs are > the bright spot in the OS universe. I have more hope that good things > will come from them. UNIX continues to mature, but for all its glory, it > has its rough spots too. > > An analogy, a weak one, would be ethernet. Ethernet has dominated the > market. Its everywhere. But I'd argue that one of its biggest weaknesses > is that it knows nothing of itself. > > When ethernet is overutilised, it just stops being optimal. Without a person > figuring out what is going on, it just keeps bein suboptimal. > > ATM on the other hand, (if I understand it correctly), is aware of its limits. > It hopefully would not allow itself to be oversubscribed. It either has > the capacity to handle your traffic, or it does not. But either way it will > tell you so. An ethernet can have devices attached such that overutilization is detected, many algorithms exist to detect various network problems that occur on ethernet. > Or look at file systems. Why is any part of a disk ever allowd to be empty? > It costs the same to keep them running, whether they're empty or full. I'm not sure what we'd fill them with, perhaps a suggestion? > Or look at interprocess signals. Why don't we have a standardized signal > for "please store state, and shut down cleanly"? Or one for "please > reload state, and return to service"? Tradition is SIGTERM is shut down and SIGHUP is reload. > Thank you for taking the time to read these questions, and thank you for > a forum to ask these kinds of questions. > > [RC] > Er, sure thing. :) -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 0:37:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 977EC37B423; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 00:37:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA66576; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 09:37:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Brad Knowles Cc: Siegbert Baude , questions@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pulse poll at Borland References: <3073B3378589D411B21600508BAF32AA012345@EXCHANGE> <39D11CB1.78C07758@gmx.de> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 28 Sep 2000 09:37:03 +0200 In-Reply-To: Brad Knowles's message of "Wed, 27 Sep 2000 11:33:52 +0200" Message-ID: Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles writes: > I haven't use Borland's development packages myself, at least not > anything since some of the original versions of TurboPascal many, > many years ago. However, I am familiar with their overall attitude, > and the fact that not a single whit of unique work has ever come out > of that company -- everything good they've had is something they've > bought from someone else, and then slapped their name onto the > package, with the usual circumstances that it is brought down into > the gutter (along with all other Borland products) in very short time. I'm afraid that's just not true. Go check your facts. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 0:56:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2D8337B423 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 00:56:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA66628; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 09:56:20 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: John Galt Cc: Dan Langille , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CD writers - recommendations References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 28 Sep 2000 09:56:19 +0200 In-Reply-To: John Galt's message of "Wed, 27 Sep 2000 12:00:35 -0600 (MDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 21 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Galt writes: > Adaptec 1542 has a Z-80 onboard to share in the disk processing tasks, I'm > betting that the better cards have beefier processors. I have never seen > a GP processor on an IDE card. [more blathering elided] IDE used to be processor-intensive back when most disks only supported PIO, but it's not any more. The reason you can't see a processor on an IDE adapter, by the way, is that IDE, as its name suggests, places most of the logic on the disk itself. That's also the reason why IDE channels have masters and slaves: the controller is actually located on the master, not on your motherboard or IDE adapter board. The reason why ATAPI CD-ROM burners are so sensitive to CPU load is that they don't support disconnection or tagged queueing, so commands must be sent sequentially and the CPU must wait for them to complete. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 1:13:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ducky.nz.freebsd.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3161E37B422 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 01:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ducky.nz.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA38705; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 20:13:49 +1200 (NZST) Message-Id: <200009280813.UAA38705@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: langille.org To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 20:13:48 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: CD writers - recommendations Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org References: John Galt's message of "Wed, 27 Sep 2000 12:00:35 -0600 (MDT)" In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 28 Sep 2000, at 9:56, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > IDE used to be processor-intensive back when most disks only supported PIO, > but it's not any more. But the consensus seems to be that for cd writers under FreeBSD, SCSI is The Way To Go. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://www.freebsddiary.org/ FreshPorts - http://freshports.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 1:22:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 566AB37B422 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 01:22:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA28730; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 01:21:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAf6aGe4; Thu Sep 28 01:21:45 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA11602; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 01:22:26 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200009280822.BAA11602@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Ideas about network interfaces. To: res03db2@gte.net (Robert Clark) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 08:22:25 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200009280418.VAA01234@gte.net> from "Robert Clark" at Sep 27, 2000 09:18:38 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > A few ideas that've been in the back of my head. > > Would it make sense to have network device names abstracted one layer more? > > In other words, would it make it easier for new users, if all network > drivers were mapped to something like et0? FWIW, for AIX, Linux, SVR4, Solaris, and other modern OSs, the names are assigned sequentially, starting with en0, so as to not require script or other configuration changes. The (small) risk in this is if you were to blindly change slots on cards, configure new hardware, or otherwise ignore probe ordering, and thus confuse two cards (say the inside and the outside of your firewall). This is generally a one time possibility at install or upgrade time, and seems to be worth the risk, since the inside and outside numbering are going to be different anyway, and it will just not route packets at all, rather than compromising your security, except under rare circumstances, where you have a strange setup AND you rearrange your hardware. In any case, most people buy two of the same type of cards, so you already have the same problem with distinguishing de0 and de1 following a card replug-fest. > ATM on the other hand, (if I understand it correctly), is aware of its limits. > It hopefully would not allow itself to be oversubscribed. It either has > the capacity to handle your traffic, or it does not. But either way it will > tell you so. ATM has other problems; remind me to tell you, when we are in the same room, and you have an hour or so to kill. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 1:32:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6BBE37B423 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 01:32:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA66778; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:32:42 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: dan@langille.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CD writers - recommendations References: <200009280813.UAA38705@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 28 Sep 2000 10:32:42 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Dan Langille"'s message of "Thu, 28 Sep 2000 20:13:48 +1200" Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Dan Langille" writes: > On 28 Sep 2000, at 9:56, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > IDE used to be processor-intensive back when most disks only supported PIO, > > but it's not any more. > But the consensus seems to be that for cd writers under FreeBSD, > SCSI is The Way To Go. I'm not arguing against that. I'm arguing abouy certain people's uninformed and unjustified prejudices against ATAPI. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 1:49:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fling.sanbi.ac.za (fling.sanbi.ac.za [196.38.142.119]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3040437B422 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 01:49:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from johann by fling.sanbi.ac.za with local (Exim 3.13 #4) id 13eZNr-0003Wm-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:49:39 +0200 Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:49:39 +0200 From: Johann Visagie To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: SGI releases XFS under GPL Message-ID: <20000928104939.B13020@fling.sanbi.ac.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Our Irix sysadmin here has been going on about SGI's XFS journaling filesystem for some time. I see on /. they've now released a beta of XFS under GPL for Linux: http://oss.sgi.com/projects/xfs/beta.html I'm idly wondering whether it would be possible (or indeed desirable) to port this to FreeBSD. -- Johann To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 2: 5:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06CF437B423; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 02:05:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id CAA81988; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 02:05:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 02:05:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Johann Visagie Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SGI releases XFS under GPL In-Reply-To: <20000928104939.B13020@fling.sanbi.ac.za> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 28 Sep 2000, Johann Visagie wrote: > Our Irix sysadmin here has been going on about SGI's XFS journaling > filesystem for some time. I see on /. they've now released a beta of XFS > under GPL for Linux: > > http://oss.sgi.com/projects/xfs/beta.html > > I'm idly wondering whether it would be possible (or indeed desirable) to port > this to FreeBSD. Anything is possible, but it only ever happens if someone, somewhere does the work. Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 2:19:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDCFF37B423; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 02:19:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAE2E18188; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:18:58 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3073B3378589D411B21600508BAF32AA012345@EXCHANGE> <39D11CB1.78C07758@gmx.de> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:15:58 +0200 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Pulse poll at Borland Cc: Siegbert Baude , questions@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:37 AM +0200 2000/9/28, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > I'm afraid that's just not true. Go check your facts. Please name one product that they created entirely in-house, as opposed to buying it from an outside source and then slapping their name on it. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 2:20:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fling.sanbi.ac.za (fling.sanbi.ac.za [196.38.142.119]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF91D37B423; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 02:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from johann by fling.sanbi.ac.za with local (Exim 3.13 #4) id 13eZrd-0003mC-00; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:20:25 +0200 Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:20:25 +0200 From: Johann Visagie To: Kris Kennaway Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SGI releases XFS under GPL Message-ID: <20000928112024.A14105@fling.sanbi.ac.za> References: <20000928104939.B13020@fling.sanbi.ac.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from kris@FreeBSD.org on Thu, Sep 28, 2000 at 02:05:31AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kennaway on 2000-09-28 (Thu) at 02:05:31 -0700: > > > I'm idly wondering whether it would be possible (or indeed desirable) to port > > this to FreeBSD. > > Anything is possible, but it only ever happens if someone, somewhere does > the work. Heh... well. What XFS has to offer is explained in a fair amount of detail on their page. My "idle wondering" was centered more around whether it would be desirable to have this functionality available for FreeBSD, taking into account all the variables (e.g. the fact that it is under GPL). I was hoping someone with more knowledge than I have of FreeBSD's future filesystem direction could humour me. This is -chat, after all. :-) -- Johann To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 2:29:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCE6837B422; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 02:29:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA66954; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:29:29 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Brad Knowles Cc: Siegbert Baude , questions@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pulse poll at Borland References: <3073B3378589D411B21600508BAF32AA012345@EXCHANGE> <39D11CB1.78C07758@gmx.de> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 28 Sep 2000 11:29:28 +0200 In-Reply-To: Brad Knowles's message of "Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:15:58 +0200" Message-ID: Lines: 21 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles writes: > At 9:37 AM +0200 2000/9/28, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > I'm afraid that's just not true. Go check your facts. > Please name one product that they created entirely in-house, as > opposed to buying it from an outside source and then slapping their > name on it. I don't deny this, but you were implying that they never added any value to the products they acquired, which is not true. I used TurboPascal from 3.0 to Borland Pasal 7.0, and Borland did an excellent job with the IDE, the debugger, the libraries etc. even if they did not originally write the underlying compiler themselves. I also used their C compilers from TurboC 2.0 to Borland C/C++ 4.something, and again, they did a very good job with the IDE, the debugging tools, the interface design tools etc., though it went downhill from 4.0 and on. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 2:31:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from apoq.skynet.be (apoq.skynet.be [195.238.2.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EEF837B42C for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 02:31:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by apoq.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id C712D994B; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:31:40 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000928104939.B13020@fling.sanbi.ac.za> References: <20000928104939.B13020@fling.sanbi.ac.za> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:31:25 +0200 To: Johann Visagie , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: SGI releases XFS under GPL Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:49 AM +0200 2000/9/28, Johann Visagie wrote: > I'm idly wondering whether it would be possible (or indeed desirable) to port > this to FreeBSD. XFS does have some cool features -- IIRC, it is an extent-based log-structured journaling filesystem with directory hashing. This would probably be the closest we'd ever get to having something like Veritas VxFS on FreeBSD. I know we used SGI and XFS extensively at AOL, and up to that point in time, I had never seen anything this fast or that handled large numbers of files in a single directory so well. However, XFS doesn't have "softupdates", and I don't know of any way to apply something like "softupdates" to it. And for what we're doing, I'm not sure how much it matters to us to have something like Veritas VxFS on our machines if that meant we'd have to give up "softupdates". All-in-all, I'm just not sure if the overall net change would be a positive or a negative, and for whom. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 2:42:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0257237B423; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 02:42:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1651D1820F; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:42:05 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3073B3378589D411B21600508BAF32AA012345@EXCHANGE> <39D11CB1.78C07758@gmx.de> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:41:45 +0200 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Pulse poll at Borland Cc: Siegbert Baude , questions@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:29 AM +0200 2000/9/28, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > I don't deny this, but you were implying that they never added any > value to the products they acquired, which is not true. They may well have added value to products that they had acquired, but IMO any value that they may have added was negative. HHOS ;-| -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 3:34:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hand.dotat.at (hand.dotat.at [212.240.134.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 330AC37B422 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 03:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fanf by hand.dotat.at with local (Exim 3.15 #3) id 13eb19-000Icn-00; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:34:19 +0000 Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:34:17 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: Terry Lambert Cc: Robert Clark , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ideas about network interfaces. Message-ID: <20000928103417.Z76573@hand.dotat.at> References: <200009280418.VAA01234@gte.net> <200009280822.BAA11602@usr02.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200009280822.BAA11602@usr02.primenet.com> Organization: Covalent Technologies, Inc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: >> >> Would it make sense to have network device names abstracted one layer more? >> In other words, would it make it easier for new users, if all network >> drivers were mapped to something like et0? > >FWIW, for AIX, Linux, SVR4, Solaris, and other modern OSs, the >names are assigned sequentially, starting with en0, so as to >not require script or other configuration changes. IME Solaris, like FreeBSD, uses a different network device name for different drivers, e.g. le, hme, etc. Tony. -- en oeccget g mtcaa f.a.n.finch v spdlkishrhtewe y dot@dotat.at eatp o v eiti i d. fanf@covalent.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 4:33:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E4C637B422 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 04:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 3B87F755B; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 04:36:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 387371D89; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 04:36:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 04:36:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Tony Finch Cc: Terry Lambert , Robert Clark , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ideas about network interfaces. In-Reply-To: <20000928103417.Z76573@hand.dotat.at> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 28 Sep 2000, Tony Finch wrote: :Terry Lambert wrote: :>> :>> Would it make sense to have network device names abstracted one layer more? :>> In other words, would it make it easier for new users, if all network :>> drivers were mapped to something like et0? :> :>FWIW, for AIX, Linux, SVR4, Solaris, and other modern OSs, the :>names are assigned sequentially, starting with en0, so as to :>not require script or other configuration changes. : :IME Solaris, like FreeBSD, uses a different network device name for :different drivers, e.g. le, hme, etc. Irix still uses different device names as well: ef0: flags=415c43 et0: flags=400c43 ec0: flags=400c43 Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 4:40:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail01.phoenixdsl.com (mail01.phoenixdsl.com [216.178.151.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AABF837B422 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 04:40:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phoenixdsl.com ([64.32.158.84]) by mail01.phoenixdsl.com (InterMail vK.4.02.00.05.01 201-232-116-105-101 license da4da6e5fc829a7858725236bede8deb) with ESMTP id <20000928114006.OREF18281.mail01@phoenixdsl.com>; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 06:40:06 -0500 Message-ID: <39D3D75A.4EB8AA06@phoenixdsl.com> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 19:42:18 -0400 From: 1mazda1 <1mazda1@phoenixdsl.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Robert Clark , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, hamellr@heorot.1nova.com Subject: Re: Unix 2000...Junk... References: <200009280331.UAA01160@gte.net> <20000927223108.F7553@fw.wintelcom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Again Microshaft has made another Junk OS.... Its really the same thing as NT 4.0 w/ active dir... I mean It seems like win2000 has like the speed of 9x and stability of NT .which I wouldn't say too much for...Where is this Premiere OS Microsoft has been promising us for a few years now...All I have seen is Junk from them so far... If they spent more time concentrating on 1 OS rather than 5 OS's I think they may be pretty decent... But until then.. I think MS still has a long way to go before I can call there OS a PREMIER OS.... sorry for the bashing but the above is True...... 'O well.. another day wasted on MS'......'1mazda1' Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * Robert Clark [000927 20:31] wrote: > > I heard that they were working on adding symbolic links as well. > > Microsoft has a hard time ignoring technology for more than 10 > years, as their users eventually catch wind of things. > > -- > -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] > "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 6:28:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AF2437B446 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 06:28:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA02830; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 06:26:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAU4aqEf; Thu Sep 28 06:26:25 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA27351; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 06:27:49 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200009281327.GAA27351@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Ideas about network interfaces. To: ragnar@sysabend.org (Jamie Bowden) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 13:27:49 +0000 (GMT) Cc: dot@dotat.at (Tony Finch), tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), res03db2@gte.net (Robert Clark), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jamie Bowden" at Sep 28, 2000 04:36:40 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > :>> Would it make sense to have network device names abstracted > :>> one layer more? > :>> In other words, would it make it easier for new users, if all network > :>> drivers were mapped to something like et0? > :> > :>FWIW, for AIX, Linux, SVR4, Solaris, and other modern OSs, the > :>names are assigned sequentially, starting with en0, so as to > :>not require script or other configuration changes. > : > :IME Solaris, like FreeBSD, uses a different network device name for > :different drivers, e.g. le, hme, etc. > > Irix still uses different device names as well: I don't know if the Solaris in question is 2.7 or not; I know SunOS (BSD4.3 derived) used different names, but most Sun machines rendered this to "le0", "le1", ... "leN", due to the "wide availability" of non-Lance based cards. IRIX is an antique. In any case, neither one is a good argument for _not_ having standard interface names for 1..N interfaces, and the "en" prefix appears to be pretty widespread for this use. If nothing else, "en" based aliases could be providedm and if people wanted to name them explicitly instead, and have to hack up the interface names in all their scripts, they could still do that (if they were insane). I know that FreeBSD's semirandom naming caused me problems, when software that needed to be deployed on more rational systems contained shell scrips for getting the current IP address, which failed on FreeBSD, and the person who hacked them up for FreeBSD ended up temporarily breaking the deployment platform (out of the two, the deployment platform was a hell of a lot more important, since it could impact real customers). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 6:41:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DDF337B43C for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 06:41:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA67817; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 15:41:07 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Terry Lambert Cc: ragnar@sysabend.org (Jamie Bowden), dot@dotat.at (Tony Finch), res03db2@gte.net (Robert Clark), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ideas about network interfaces. References: <200009281327.GAA27351@usr05.primenet.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 28 Sep 2000 15:41:06 +0200 In-Reply-To: Terry Lambert's message of "Thu, 28 Sep 2000 13:27:49 +0000 (GMT)" Message-ID: Lines: 31 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > I don't know if the Solaris in question is 2.7 or not; I know > SunOS (BSD4.3 derived) used different names, but most Sun > machines rendered this to "le0", "le1", ... "leN", due to the > "wide availability" of non-Lance based cards. Solaris 2.7 still uses different names for different interface types. SunOS hungr.ifi.uio.no 5.7 Generic_106541-09 sun4u sparc des@hungr ~% ifconfig hme0 hme0: flags=863 mtu 1500 inet 129.240.64.74 netmask fffff800 broadcast 129.240.71.255 > In any case, neither one is a good argument for _not_ having > standard interface names for 1..N interfaces, and the "en" > prefix appears to be pretty widespread for this use. Define 'pretty widespread'. Our closest competitor - Linux - uses 'eth'. > If nothing else, "en" based aliases could be providedm and if > people wanted to name them explicitly instead, and have to > hack up the interface names in all their scripts, they could > still do that (if they were insane). Everybody who does not agree with you, or is satisfied with a system you dislike, is insane? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 7:19:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DADC837B43E for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 07:19:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (jrs@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA02262; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 09:18:23 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jrs@enteract.com) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 09:18:23 -0500 (CDT) From: John Sconiers To: Brad Knowles Cc: Johann Visagie , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SGI releases XFS under GPL In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Can you please explain the difference in XFS and softupdates and why soft updates would be more desireable than a journaling file system. I understand what XFS is but based on your comments I get the feeling that I have the wrong impression of what softupdates is and how it performs. I know there are papers on the subject(s). Any one got a link? JRS > However, XFS doesn't have "softupdates", and I don't know of any > way to apply something like "softupdates" to it. And for what we're > doing, I'm not sure how much it matters to us to have something like > Veritas VxFS on our machines if that meant we'd have to give up > "softupdates". > All-in-all, I'm just not sure if the overall net change would be > a positive or a negative, and for whom. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 8:55:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from neo.skynet.be (neo.skynet.be [195.238.2.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B12FD37B422 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 08:55:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by neo.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20AAF6DD7; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 17:54:45 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 17:48:46 +0200 To: John Sconiers From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: SGI releases XFS under GPL Cc: Johann Visagie , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:18 AM -0500 2000/9/28, John Sconiers wrote: > Can you please explain the difference in XFS and softupdates and why soft > updates would be more desireable than a journaling file system. I > understand what XFS is but based on your comments I get the feeling that > I have the wrong impression of what softupdates is and how it > performs. I know there are papers on the subject(s). Any one got a link? The key thing to "softupdates" is that it allows us to completely avoid writing certain disk meta-data updates to disk (so long as they continue to occur in a certain order), whereas log-structured journaling filesystems don't avoid those meta-data updates algtogether, they instead give us a more efficient way to handle them. A more efficient way to handle them is an improvement, but an even better improvement is to simply never do them at all. Unfortunately, I fear that "softupdates" and a log-structured journaling filesystem are mutually incompatible. Damn. You know, Kirk was just here. I should have asked him that question. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 9:14:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75D7537B423; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 09:14:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA21809; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:14:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000928101103.0479bb70@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:13:58 -0600 To: Brad Knowles , Dag-Erling Smorgrav From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Pulse poll at Borland Cc: Siegbert Baude , questions@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <3073B3378589D411B21600508BAF32AA012345@EXCHANGE> <39D11CB1.78C07758@gmx.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:15 AM 9/28/2000, Brad Knowles wrote: > Please name one product that they created entirely in-house, as opposed to buying it from an outside source and then slapping their name on it. Turbo Basic. Written from scratch in-house by Bob Zale. Borland Pascal and Delphi. Written from scratch by Anders Hejlsberg, based on Hejlsberg's Poly Pascal. Their marketing and strategy may be terrible, but they've had some good technical people there over the years. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 10:31: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE15537B424 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:30:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from utah (jcwells@utah.nwlink.com [209.20.130.41]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA22883; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:30:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:43:39 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcwells@utah To: Brad Knowles Cc: John Sconiers , Johann Visagie , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SGI releases XFS under GPL In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 28 Sep 2000, Brad Knowles wrote: > > performs. I know there are papers on the subject(s). Any one got a link? Go to McCusick.com. (org?) It's all there in gory detail. Thank you, Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 11:30:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ducky.nz.freebsd.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E58337B424 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:30:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ducky.nz.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA41468 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 06:30:15 +1200 (NZST) Message-Id: <200009281830.GAA41468@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: langille.org To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 06:30:15 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: anyone in England going to BSDCon? Reply-To: dan@langille.org X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've been offered two 9GB hard drives by a person in London. I'm looking for a volunteer to bring these drives to BSDCon. I'll arrange to get them delivered to the address of your choice. cheers -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://www.freebsddiary.org/ FreshPorts - http://freshports.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 13: 3:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0BCC37B422; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 13:03:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA69616; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 22:03:18 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD won't run on newer IBM laptops From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 28 Sep 2000 22:03:17 +0200 Message-ID: Lines: 30 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [bcc: to -mobile and -chat] The BIOS on newer IBM laptops freezes solid when it finds a FreeBSD partition (what we call a slice) on the harddisk (apparently because it thinks it's a suspend partition and tries to read it). IBM tech support had the following to say about this (after a longish struggle to make them admit the problem existed): > There may be a future update to the BIOS of this machine > that will allow the machine to recognize the 165 partition > type. I've been told that at a minimum they will at least > allow the machine to be booted up without freezing. I > would setup a profile on the IBM Support website > (http://www.pc.ibm.com/support) to be notified when future > updates are available. > > Thank you for using the IBM Online Assistant. > > Tim Zwick So, everybody out there who has an IBM laptop or is considering acquiring one, let them know this is unacceptable. Email or phone IBM Tech Support (See http://www.pc.ibm.com/qtechinfo/MIGR-4HWSE3.html for a list of call centers around the world) and complain; and make sure your retailer knows about the problem, and knows that you won't buy an IBM ThinkPad until the problem is solved. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 14:37:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp1.sentex.ca (smtp1.sentex.ca [199.212.134.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85F6837B423 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 14:37:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chimp.simianscience.com (cage.simianscience.com [64.7.134.1]) by smtp1.sentex.ca (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id e8SLb6V53382 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 17:37:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Mike Tancsa To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: deja.com/usenet/ service Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 17:37:06 -0400 Message-ID: <68e7tsk23vth3jqc3cscargtu6scvt4tkc@4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 27 Sep 2000 09:25:33 -0400, in sentex.lists.freebsd.chat you wrote: >So basically, no one uses anything but deja.com for usenet=20 >searches? Thats all I use it for, and I use it quite a bit. So are there any alternatives ? ---Mike Mike Tancsa (mdtancsa@sentex.net) =09 Sentex Communications Corp, =09 Waterloo, Ontario, Canada "Given enough time, 100 monkeys on 100 routers=20 could setup a national IP network." (KDW2) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 15:13:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7024A37B423; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 15:13:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA337266; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 18:13:25 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 18:13:25 -0400 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: FreeBSD won't run on newer IBM laptops Cc: jon@spock.org, crossd@cs.rpi.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:03 PM +0200 9/28/00, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >[bcc: to -mobile and -chat] As is mine... >The BIOS on newer IBM laptops freezes solid when it finds a >FreeBSD partition (what we call a slice) on the harddisk >(apparently because it thinks it's a suspend partition and >tries to read it). IBM tech support had the following to say >about this (after a longish struggle to make them admit the >problem existed): Here at RPI, the freshman laptop is the new IBM ThinkPad T20. Some people on campus have also bought the A20. As far as I am aware, once we got a driver for the new ethernet card which was in our T20, we have no problem installing and running FreeBSD on it. I know we have at least 30-40 students on campus who are running this way on T20's. Maybe 1 or 2 who are running on A20's. I have noticed the reports from people in freebsd-questions about problems with the T20 being completely unusable after installing freebsd. My best guess is that in our case, all our students would be running freebsd in a dual-boot situation. Many classes here use software which is included in the initial Win98 install that we have for students, and it would be foolish (for our students) to completely remove Win98. So, the first partition remains the win98 partition, and we install freebsd into a second partition that we create via PartitionMagic. I encourage people to voice their opinions with IBM, of course, but if you already OWN a T20, and you would like to use it with freebsd, then you might want to try setting it up with a dual- boot configuration. My second guess is that we (RPI) were just plain lucky... :-) > > There may be a future update to the BIOS of this > > machine that will allow the machine to recognize > > the 165 partition type. I've been told that at a > > minimum they will at least allow the machine to be > > booted up without freezing. Does this effect partition-types other than 165? Has anyone tried a dedicated OpenBSD, NetBSD, or even BeOS install on a T20? (just to see if those partition types also confuse the BIOS). It might be that we should not say "recognize type 165", but instead should say "recognize a WINDOWS partition, and if there IS NO WINDOWS partition, then do not look for a windows-suspension partition". --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 16:27:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from relay2.inwind.it (relay2.inwind.it [212.141.53.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BDA937B422 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 16:27:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bartequi.ottodomain.org (212.141.79.1) by relay2.inwind.it (5.1.046) id 39CB0979000FAEB5; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 01:27:22 +0200 From: Salvo Bartolotta Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 00:27:59 GMT Message-ID: <20000929.275900@bartequi.ottodomain.org> Subject: Re: Unix 2000... To: bright@wintelcom.net Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: SuperCalifragilis X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> * Robert Clark [000927 20:31] wrote: >> I heard that they were working on adding symbolic links as well. > Microsoft has a hard time ignoring technology for more than 10 > years, as their users eventually catch wind of things. Dear Alfred Perlstein, In a classical textbook on Operating Systems (last edition, published in 1998), Windows NT has been defined as a "modern [sic] operating system", "designed and implemented in a completely different way from UNIX" [sic]. Best regards, Salvo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 16:56:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B958E37B423 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 16:56:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e8SNuVp17659; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 16:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 16:56:31 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unix 2000... Message-ID: <20000928165631.Y7553@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000929.275900@bartequi.ottodomain.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <20000929.275900@bartequi.ottodomain.org>; from bartequi@inwind.it on Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 12:27:59AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Salvo Bartolotta [000928 16:27] wrote: > >> * Robert Clark [000927 20:31] wrote: > >> I heard that they were working on adding symbolic links as well. > > > Microsoft has a hard time ignoring technology for more than 10 > > years, as their users eventually catch wind of things. > > Dear Alfred Perlstein, > > In a classical textbook on Operating Systems (last edition, published > in 1998), Windows NT has been defined as a "modern [sic] operating > system", "designed and implemented in a completely different way from > UNIX" [sic]. Anything can be modern and at the same time garbage, example: NSYNC. And don't believe everything you read, classical Solaris and other high end UNIX systems still beat the pants off NT in terms of stability and scalability. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 17:15:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from relay1.inwind.it (relay1.inwind.it [212.141.53.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93E1037B424 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 17:15:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bartequi.ottodomain.org (212.141.79.1) by relay1.inwind.it (5.1.046) id 39AFDC990042F853; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 02:15:22 +0200 From: Salvo Bartolotta Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 01:15:59 GMT Message-ID: <20000929.1155900@bartequi.ottodomain.org> Subject: Re: Unix 2000... To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20000929.275900@bartequi.ottodomain.org> <20000928165631.Y7553@fw.wintelcom.net> X-Mailer: SuperCalifragilis X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< On 9/29/00, 12:56:31 AM, Alfred Perlstein wrote regarding Re: Unix 2000...: > * Salvo Bartolotta [000928 16:27] wrote: > > >> * Robert Clark [000927 20:31] wrote: > > >> I heard that they were working on adding symbolic links as well. > > > > > Microsoft has a hard time ignoring technology for more than 10 > > > years, as their users eventually catch wind of things. > > > > Dear Alfred Perlstein, > > > > In a classical textbook on Operating Systems (last edition, publishe= d > > in 1998), Windows NT has been defined as a "modern [sic] operating > > system", "designed and implemented in a completely different way fro= m > > UNIX" [sic]. > Anything can be modern and at the same time garbage, example: NSYNC. > And don't believe everything you read, classical Solaris and other > high end UNIX systems still beat the pants off NT in terms of > stability and scalability. Actually, I do not. The reason for using "sic" twice was to point out it was the authors' opinion. Those definitons ("modern", "different" etc.), instead, take a humoro(u)s character, in the light of what was said before in the thread (NT adopting UNIX features) :-)) Best regards, Salvo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 17:28:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hand.dotat.at (hand.dotat.at [212.240.134.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A109137B424 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 17:28:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fanf by hand.dotat.at with local (Exim 3.15 #3) id 13eo2J-000Do4-00; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 00:28:23 +0000 Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 00:28:23 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: Terry Lambert Cc: Jamie Bowden , Robert Clark , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ideas about network interfaces. Message-ID: <20000929002823.X50343@hand.dotat.at> References: <200009281327.GAA27351@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200009281327.GAA27351@usr05.primenet.com> Organization: Covalent Technologies, Inc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > >I don't know if the Solaris in question is 2.7 or not; I know SunOS >(BSD4.3 derived) used different names, but most Sun machines rendered >this to "le0", "le1", ... "leN", due to the "wide availability" of >non-Lance based cards. My direct experience is with 2.5.1 and 2.6 but I know of no reason for 7 or 8 to be different. I mentioned le and hme already but there's also a different interface name for fddi and cddi, and ISTR some odd sparc clone which had yet another interface type. Sorry, I've lost the specific details in the mists of time :-) >I know that FreeBSD's semirandom naming caused me problems, when >software that needed to be deployed on more rational systems >contained shell scrips for getting the current IP address, which >failed on FreeBSD, and the person who hacked them up for FreeBSD >ended up temporarily breaking the deployment platform (out of the >two, the deployment platform was a hell of a lot more important, >since it could impact real customers). You'll lose for a far more basic reason than that. Solaris and Linux have a completely different way of aliasing interfaces than FreeBSD, and the output from ifconfig is amusingly variable across platforms. Tony. -- en oeccget g mtcaa f.a.n.finch v spdlkishrhtewe y dot@dotat.at eatp o v eiti i d. fanf@covalent.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 17:33:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5051637B423 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 17:33:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA02684; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 17:32:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAARlaWff; Thu Sep 28 17:32:31 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA05430; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 17:33:10 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200009290033.RAA05430@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Ideas about network interfaces. To: des@ofug.org (Dag-Erling Smorgrav) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 00:33:10 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), ragnar@sysabend.org (Jamie Bowden), dot@dotat.at (Tony Finch), res03db2@gte.net (Robert Clark), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" at Sep 28, 2000 03:41:06 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > If nothing else, "en" based aliases could be providedm and if > > people wanted to name them explicitly instead, and have to > > hack up the interface names in all their scripts, they could > > still do that (if they were insane). > > Everybody who does not agree with you, or is satisfied with a system > you dislike, is insane? Anyone who avoids a small amount of work for themselves at the expense of a huge amount of work for others is "insane". Why do people want to hack up scripts that they don't have to hack, except for the sake of some valueless namespace differentiation between drivers they could care less about, when what they are interested in is network connectivity? Why do people want to have to configure things that their software could configure for them? What is the point here, to ensure job security for people who, without this needless obfuscation, would have to learn how to ask "would you like fries with that?"? It makes no sense to make things unnecessarily complicated, with no other justification than "that's how it has always beeen, so that's how it should always be". Consider a laptop, where the connectivity changes between the undocked and docked states, but there is no need for the network configuration to change. Yet the user is still required to hack scripts. This is as bad as Windows, with its "hardware profiles"; at least Windows gives you the option of selecting between the available profiles at boot time; FreeBSD doesn't even give you that (yet). Unifying the network interface namespace is a step in the right direction. I would be happy to not have to hack up scripts to get network conectivity, the next time I install FreeBSD, or duplicate an existing setup on a new machine. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 18:16:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6670837B422 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 18:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA29308; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 18:14:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAArma4j5; Thu Sep 28 18:14:35 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA06192; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 18:15:58 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200009290115.SAA06192@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: SGI releases XFS under GPL To: jrs@enteract.com (John Sconiers) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 01:15:58 +0000 (GMT) Cc: blk@skynet.be (Brad Knowles), wjv@cityip.co.za (Johann Visagie), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "John Sconiers" at Sep 28, 2000 09:18:23 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > However, XFS doesn't have "softupdates", and I don't know of any > > way to apply something like "softupdates" to it. And for what we're > > doing, I'm not sure how much it matters to us to have something like > > Veritas VxFS on our machines if that meant we'd have to give up > > "softupdates". > > All-in-all, I'm just not sure if the overall net change would be > > a positive or a negative, and for whom. > > Can you please explain the difference in XFS and softupdates and why soft > updates would be more desireable than a journaling file system. I > understand what XFS is but based on your comments I get the feeling that > I have the wrong impression of what softupdates is and how it > performs. I know there are papers on the subject(s). Any one got a link? Here is a link to an abstrct that has links to the cover sheet, the paper, and "Appendix A", which is the sanitized source code from their SVR4 implemenetation: http://www.ece.cmu.edu/~ganger/papers/CSE-TR-254-95/ Soft updates ensures metadata consistency; that's all it is supposed to do, and that's all it does. It has the same safety as synchronous metadata mounts, but can operate within 6% of memory speed; in some cases, this turns out to be better than pure async mounts, since it tends to write gather operations which reverse themselves, such as the creation of a file followed by its deletion, such as you might see during a compile. Async would still hit the disk twice, whereas soft updates woud hit the disk zero times for the same set of operations. Soft updates is tied heavily into graph theory, and the idea that FS operations can be broken down into synchronization events. A synchronization event must be completed before the next synchronization attempt is permitted. In traditional systems, this has been guaranteed by stalling all events until the synchronization event has been completed; this is a "synchronous mount". A later system, patented by USL, uses a technique called "DOW" or "Delayed Ordered Writes". This technique only stalls the pipeline on metadata related synchronization events; that is, one metadata synchronization event must complete before the next is permitted, by asynchornous events other than that are permitted. It gains its speed increase from delaying writes between synchronization events. This gives it the ability to effectively do implicit write gathering of non-metadata writes, which can also be gathered with related metadata writes at the stall point. This method is superior to async and to simple write gathering, since it does not violate NFS or POSIX semantics on guarantees of things like timestamp updates with regard to async data writes and updating the file modification time, etc.. NB: ReiserFS uses this same technique in order to implement their logging; I personally believe that this is an infringement of the USL patent. Soft updates maintains a dependency graph of metadata events; the bebefit of doing this is to ensure you can stall a write to metadata to ensure proper ordering. But unlike the DOW technique, because the graph is fully known to the system, rather than implied by the stall, the stall will on affect dependent metadata writes. This means that if I have two sets of operations going on to, for example, create two files in two different directories, simultaneously, where DOW would stall one operation until the other has completed, soft updates will not result in a stall of the second operation. A stall will still occur on a directory that has multiple operations occurring simultaneously (or sequentially, such as a create followed by a rename) in the same directory entry block, and the directory modification timestamp update will also be serialized. But on a heavily loaded machine, each process will have what is called "locality of reference", which is just a way to say "most programs operate on independent data sets, and so don't ever conflict with each other on their operations" A common misconception about soft updates is that you can get the same failure recovery that you would get from journalling or logging. In theory, it looks like you could, since in the event of a power failure, for example, the only thing that would be out of date is the cylider group bitmaps, and the way that they are out of date is by having some blocks within the cylinder group marked as allocated, when the metadata state at the time of the crash had not been committed. With this true, you could scan the disk in the background, locking a cylinder group at a time to clean the bitmap, and unlocking it when you are done. Locality of reference means that you will probably stall some programs for a tiny amount of time, if they are intent on doing I/O within that cylinder group being fixed, but this is a far cry from waiting a long time for 36G of disk to be scanned in detail. The flaw with this theory is that a power failure is not the only type of crash you could have, and running after any crash that can corrupt any portion of the disk (e.g. most disks corrupt sectors if power is lost during a write, and in the evnt of a kernel panic, you don't know what data was corrupted in core, then erroneously written to disk before the actual panic, etc.), puts you at risk of further disk corruption and user space software failures. In the worst case, the crash was the result of a hardware failure of the disk subsystem (disk, controller, cables, terminator, etc.). So it is impossible to recover without an exterior log of the events leading up to the crash (this is how the WAFL file system from Network Appliance works: it uses an NVRAM intention log). Going further down the soft updates road, there's really no reason to assume that the UFS and FFS pieces are the only thing in the dependency tree. The shape of the dependency tree was "frozen" when soft updates was coded, but this need not have been. There is actually no good reason that the dependency tree shape should be static; indeed, the system only knows that it's traversing pointers; how they got in the arrangement they are in, the system doesn't care. Neither is the argument that the graph would take more memory than it currently takes; the shorthand structures in use in soft updates today could remain the same: they describe inter-node ordering relationships along an edge between nodes. This means that, should the approach be generalized, which would take a small amount of work, then it could work between stacking layers. At mount time, a node-node dependency resolver could be registered into the graph, at the same time the node relationships are registered, by virtue of the mount. This would let you do some marvelous things, such as seperating out the quota into a stacking layer, without losing soft updates capability (the inter-layer boundary is otherwise an implied synchronization point, which is global in scope, turning the soft updates approach into the DOW approach, for all intents and purposes). Or you could use artificial dependencies to export a transactioning interface to user space database applications. Or you could propagate dependency relationships across a network connection layer, between machines, and do FS clustering. The possibilities are really huge. I've talked with Yale and Kirk, and Greg about generalizing this before; the thing that stopped me from doing it on my own was the license on Kirk's code making it so that I might be unable to grant license to the code without Kirk also granting license. Now that that has changed, I will probably put it on my projects lists, after two or three others near the top, since I think it's important to pursue this approach, since it opens so many avenues for additional research and technological progress. In any case, since you're familiar with XFS, you should be able to see that metadata integrity is one aspect of XFS, and is one aspect of soft updates, but the technologies could in fact complement each other tremendously: they are future partners, not competitors, since in the majority of cases, what they bring to the table, other than metadata integrity guarantees, is non-overlapping. Indeed, the XFS metadata integrity could probably be sped up considerably, if only through benefit of the implicit write gathering of soft updates (something that can't happen with XFS as it is). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 19:34:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from inconnu.isu.edu (inconnu.isu.edu [134.50.8.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4550237B423 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 19:33:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (galt@localhost) by inconnu.isu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA08449; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 20:33:52 -0600 Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 20:33:52 -0600 (MDT) From: John Galt To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: dan@langille.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CD writers - recommendations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org unjustified? I believe the sum total of your first refutation was "Bollocks", not exactly fully justified... On 28 Sep 2000, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > "Dan Langille" writes: > > On 28 Sep 2000, at 9:56, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > IDE used to be processor-intensive back when most disks only supported PIO, > > > but it's not any more. > > But the consensus seems to be that for cd writers under FreeBSD, > > SCSI is The Way To Go. > > I'm not arguing against that. I'm arguing abouy certain people's > uninformed and unjustified prejudices against ATAPI. > > DES > -- You have paid nothing for the preceding, therefore it's worth every penny you've paid for it: if you did pay for it, might I remind you of the immortal words of Phineas Taylor Barnum regarding fools and money? Who is John Galt? galt@inconnu.isu.edu, that's who! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 20:29:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from inconnu.isu.edu (inconnu.isu.edu [134.50.8.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2758237B422 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 20:29:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (galt@localhost) by inconnu.isu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA10609; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 21:29:16 -0600 Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 21:29:16 -0600 (MDT) From: John Galt To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Dan Langille , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CD writers - recommendations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 28 Sep 2000, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > John Galt writes: > > Adaptec 1542 has a Z-80 onboard to share in the disk processing tasks, I'm > > betting that the better cards have beefier processors. I have never seen > > a GP processor on an IDE card. [more blathering elided] > > IDE used to be processor-intensive back when most disks only supported > PIO, but it's not any more. There hasn't been enough change in the spec in the intervening time to categorically state that. In fact, due to concerns of backwards compatibility, I doubt that it will EVER be safe to categorically state that IDE is not CPU intensive: there will be too many wdc's out there disproving it every CPU-hogging second > The reason you can't see a processor on an IDE adapter, by the way, is > that IDE, as its name suggests, places most of the logic on the disk > itself. That's also the reason why IDE channels have masters and > slaves: the controller is actually located on the master, not on your > motherboard or IDE adapter board. SCSI Disks also have processors on the drives, so that one falls flat. In fact, I submit that the average SCSI device does more on-board processing than the average ATA device. Net results: SCSI:CPU does a little processing, host adapter does a little, and device does a little; IDE: CPU does a LOT of processing, controller does none, drive does a little. Add other tasks to each case's CPU: SCSI: CPU timeslices nicely, host adapter takes up a portion of the slack, device takes up the rest; IDE: CPU timeslices badly, controller takes up no slack, drive gets the brunt of the additional work and often fails to maintain constant datapipe. > The reason why ATAPI CD-ROM burners are so sensitive to CPU load is > that they don't support disconnection or tagged queueing, so commands > must be sent sequentially and the CPU must wait for them to complete. So IOW IDE devices throw an interrupt whenever they're operating, SCSI devices throw an interrupt only whenever the host adapter is starving for commands. Sounds exactly like what I wsas saying in the first place, just using proper terminology... > DES > -- You have paid nothing for the preceding, therefore it's worth every penny you've paid for it: if you did pay for it, might I remind you of the immortal words of Phineas Taylor Barnum regarding fools and money? Who is John Galt? galt@inconnu.isu.edu, that's who! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 23:23: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ducky.nz.freebsd.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ED2E37B422 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 23:23:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ducky.nz.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA45872; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 18:22:54 +1200 (NZST) Message-Id: <200009290622.SAA45872@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: langille.org To: John Galt Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 18:22:51 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: CD writers - recommendations Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 28 Sep 2000, at 21:29, John Galt wrote: > > The reason why ATAPI CD-ROM burners are so sensitive to CPU load is > > that they don't support disconnection or tagged queueing, so commands > > must be sent sequentially and the CPU must wait for them to complete. > > So IOW IDE devices throw an interrupt whenever they're operating, SCSI > devices throw an interrupt only whenever the host adapter is starving for > commands. Sounds exactly like what I wsas saying in the first place, just > using proper terminology... And this is the main reason why I'm going to go for a SCSI cdrom burner. I'm not sure which one yet, but Plextor seems to be the fav. And Ricoh. I've been looking at http://www.fadden.com/cdrfaq/faq05.html#[5-1] as a source of information. Also, since I'll be using cdrecord, I've been reading http://www.fokus.gmd.de/research/cc/glone/employees/joerg.schilling/pri vate/cdwriters-1.9.html Thanks for those that have contributed. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://www.freebsddiary.org/ FreshPorts - http://freshports.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 23:36:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop3.gte.net (smtppop3pub.gte.net [206.46.170.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91FB337B423 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 23:36:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-144-246.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.144.246]) by smtppop3.gte.net with ESMTP ; id BAA31221595 Fri, 29 Sep 2000 01:32:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA01285; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 23:36:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 23:36:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Clark Message-Id: <200009290636.XAA01285@gte.net> To: des@ofug.org, tlambert@primenet.com Subject: Re: Ideas about network interfaces. Cc: dot@dotat.at, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, ragnar@sysabend.org, res03db2@gte.net In-Reply-To: <200009290033.RAA05430@usr05.primenet.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Its funny to me that the idea I wanted to ask about, that I would've thought would be the least interesting to people, would be the one most talked about. My thought, is that we don't name our disk devices based on the brand of the scsi controller. Why do we specify an interface to talk to, based on a brand name. Is there any way to have more than one instance of the network stack running on one system? If we could run more than one instance of the network stack, we could give each a set of (ethernet) ports to work with. Would it make sens to give one port to a firewall package, and several ports to some other use. Or ultimately, one instance of the OS could have interfaces 1 2 and 3, and another instance of the OS could have interfaces 4 5 and 6. Without traffic leakinf from one instance of the OS to the other. Thanks, [RC] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 23:40:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop1.gte.net (smtppop1pub.gte.net [206.46.170.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 020DC37B42C for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 23:40:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-144-246.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.144.246]) by smtppop1.gte.net with ESMTP ; id BAA4591753 Fri, 29 Sep 2000 01:36:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA01296; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 23:40:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 23:40:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Clark Message-Id: <200009290640.XAA01296@gte.net> To: bartequi@inwind.it, bright@wintelcom.net Subject: Re: Unix 2000... Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000928165631.Y7553@fw.wintelcom.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org And for eating of the sysV tree, and leaving the garden of BSD, the plague of Java has been visited upon us all. Err, sorry, I was trying to refer back to Sun. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 23:45:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop3.gte.net (smtppop3pub.gte.net [206.46.170.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C75F37B422 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 23:45:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-144-246.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.144.246]) by smtppop3.gte.net with ESMTP ; id BAA31021313 Fri, 29 Sep 2000 01:41:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA01304; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 23:45:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 23:45:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Clark Message-Id: <200009290645.XAA01304@gte.net> To: dot@dotat.at, tlambert@primenet.com Subject: Re: Ideas about network interfaces. Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, ragnar@sysabend.org, res03db2@gte.net In-Reply-To: <20000929002823.X50343@hand.dotat.at> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org There is also qle and qfe on Solaris. One thing I do appreciate about the e4000 Suns, (and most of the SBUS systems I would think), is that installing a new scsi controller doesn't change the path to the existing devices. This is inherent in the hardware, and not something applicable to the PC? I wonder if the Alpha based (PCI) systems are any better. [RC]. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 28 23:53:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB04237B422 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 23:53:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA02246; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 23:50:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAI3aGre; Thu Sep 28 23:50:46 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA13364; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 23:53:17 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200009290653.XAA13364@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Ideas about network interfaces. To: res03db2@gte.net (Robert Clark) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 06:53:16 +0000 (GMT) Cc: dot@dotat.at, tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, ragnar@sysabend.org, res03db2@gte.net In-Reply-To: <200009290645.XAA01304@gte.net> from "Robert Clark" at Sep 28, 2000 11:45:27 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > One thing I do appreciate about the e4000 Suns, (and most of the > SBUS systems I would think), is that installing a new scsi > controller doesn't change the path to the existing devices. > > This is inherent in the hardware, and not something applicable to > the PC? The controllers are not named for their slots or for their PCI interrupt (A/B/C/D), nor for their bridge address, etc.. In an ideal world, you would expect slot; the best you can expect in a PCI workld is, I think, interrupt, then bridge, then interrupt off of bridge, then target, then LUN, then paritition, then subpartition, etc.. We don't do that. For a near approximation, you could use the "last mounted on" field of the FS's that support it to decide on mounting into the FS hierarchy, and add a field for the rest of the fstab elements, and get rid of the fstab. This won't work for things like an msdos FS, or most CDROMs, etc., which don't have a "last mounted on" field, or have an empty one. But you could envision a devfs/slice/last-mounted-on combination that would automatically "just work". For things like dd-duplicated disks on a single system, you would want to have a "dismount date" failed, and use the most recently dismounted of a pair of "/usr" partitions, as one approach. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 29 0: 6:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop2.gte.net (smtppop2pub.gte.net [206.46.170.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6186937B422 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 00:06:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-144-246.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.144.246]) by smtppop2.gte.net with ESMTP ; id CAA26252003 Fri, 29 Sep 2000 02:04:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA01365; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 00:05:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 00:05:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Clark Message-Id: <200009290705.AAA01365@gte.net> To: bright@wintelcom.net, res03db2@gte.net Subject: Re: Unix 2000... Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, hamellr@heorot.1nova.com In-Reply-To: <20000927223108.F7553@fw.wintelcom.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From Rick's descriptions, sounds like Microsoft is beginning to copy OS/2 warp from 1995? OS/2 had an /etc dir, a hosts file, services, etc. [RC] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 29 0:16:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop3.gte.net (smtppop3pub.gte.net [206.46.170.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9254C37B422 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 00:16:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-144-246.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.144.246]) by smtppop3.gte.net with ESMTP ; id CAA31272179 Fri, 29 Sep 2000 02:12:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA01416; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 00:16:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 00:16:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Clark Message-Id: <200009290716.AAA01416@gte.net> To: res03db2@gte.net, tlambert@primenet.com Subject: Re: Ideas about network interfaces. Cc: dot@dotat.at, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, ragnar@sysabend.org In-Reply-To: <200009290653.XAA13364@usr08.primenet.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org So would this PCI style of hardware pathing travel anywhere the PCI bus goes? I haven't looked into the PCI based RS/6000 at work, or the PCI based Ultra-5. Its funny to see the PCI bus go so many places. I saw several books today on PCI. I may have to see if I can find an approachable one. Why couldn't we just have one or more unique interrupts per slot, like on the apple II. Thanks for the info. [RC] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 29 0:23:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 215D837B42C for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 00:23:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e8T7Ncu27540; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 00:23:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 00:23:38 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Robert Clark Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, hamellr@heorot.1nova.com Subject: Re: Unix 2000... Message-ID: <20000929002337.C7553@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000927223108.F7553@fw.wintelcom.net> <200009290705.AAA01365@gte.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <200009290705.AAA01365@gte.net>; from res03db2@gte.net on Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 12:05:50AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Robert Clark [000929 00:06] wrote: > >From Rick's descriptions, sounds like Microsoft is > beginning to copy OS/2 warp from 1995? > > OS/2 had an /etc dir, a hosts file, services, etc. s/embrace and extend/crush then re-release ? -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 29 0:35:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03DF237B423 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 00:35:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA26570; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 00:34:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAOyaq2Z; Fri Sep 29 00:34:29 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA13895; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 00:35:10 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200009290735.AAA13895@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Ideas about network interfaces. To: res03db2@gte.net (Robert Clark) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 07:35:10 +0000 (GMT) Cc: res03db2@gte.net, tlambert@primenet.com, dot@dotat.at, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, ragnar@sysabend.org In-Reply-To: <200009290716.AAA01416@gte.net> from "Robert Clark" at Sep 29, 2000 12:16:13 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > So would this PCI style of hardware pathing travel anywhere the PCI > bus goes? Yes. > Its funny to see the PCI bus go so many places. I saw several > books today on PCI. I may have to see if I can find an approachable > one. The "MindShare" one is pretty good, IMO. > Why couldn't we just have one or more unique interrupts per slot, like > on the apple II. Because PCI doesn't cascade interrupts on all motherboards, there's an interrupt wrap on slot 5, if there's a slot 5, and some boards use more than one interrupt, which would make the second device share the interrupt with the card in the next adjacent slot (in the case of a cascade), or the first device share with the previous adjacent slot (in the case of a non-cascade). Historically, Intel motherboards did not cacade (A/B/C/D for slot one, B/C/D/A for slot two, etc.) unless they were from their "Server Products Group". Of course, the only group that makes good motherboards at Intel is the SPG, and the only groups you can buy motherboards from _aren't_ the SPG... Suffice it to say, you can't just decide that you aren't going to share, so long as card and motherboard designers are still going insane from the arsenic they use to block their hats, and can't agree with each other between all vendors. NB: You'd think a "greedy" card that wanted more than one PCI interrupt would try to sneak a peek around, and try not to share an interrupt with another card, so that the vendors products at least appeared faster than their competition wo didn't peek around... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 29 0:46:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F76A37B422 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 00:46:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA71872; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 09:46:41 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Robert Clark Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, dot@dotat.at, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, ragnar@sysabend.org Subject: Re: Ideas about network interfaces. References: <200009290636.XAA01285@gte.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 29 Sep 2000 09:46:40 +0200 In-Reply-To: Robert Clark's message of "Thu, 28 Sep 2000 23:36:23 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Robert Clark writes: > My thought, is that we don't name our disk devices based > on the brand of the scsi controller. Why do we specify > an interface to talk to, based on a brand name. Because the SCSI disk driver does not know about SCSI controllers. It talks to CAM, and CAM passes commands to the SCSI controller, and SCSI controller drivers *do* have different names depending on the brand, so your analogy fails. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 29 1:15:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fling.sanbi.ac.za (fling.sanbi.ac.za [196.38.142.119]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5C7137B423 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 01:15:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from johann by fling.sanbi.ac.za with local (Exim 3.13 #4) id 13evJZ-000LaA-00; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 10:14:41 +0200 Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 10:14:41 +0200 From: Johann Visagie To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SGI releases XFS under GPL Message-ID: <20000929101441.C82649@fling.sanbi.ac.za> References: <200009290115.SAA06192@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200009290115.SAA06192@usr05.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 01:15:58AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert on 2000-09-29 (Fri) at 01:15:58 +0000: > > Here is a link to an abstrct that has links to the cover sheet, > the paper, and "Appendix A", which is the sanitized source code > from their SVR4 implemenetation: [ etc. ] Thanks Terry, that was very, very informative indeed! I am still busy digesting the soft updates paper you mentioned. -- Johann To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 29 2:42:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 282B237B628 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 02:39:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA05173; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 02:38:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAG.aqfk; Fri Sep 29 02:38:46 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA15938; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 02:38:25 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200009290938.CAA15938@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Ideas about network interfaces. To: des@ofug.org (Dag-Erling Smorgrav) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 09:38:25 +0000 (GMT) Cc: res03db2@gte.net (Robert Clark), tlambert@primenet.com, dot@dotat.at, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, ragnar@sysabend.org In-Reply-To: from "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" at Sep 29, 2000 09:46:40 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > My thought, is that we don't name our disk devices based > > on the brand of the scsi controller. Why do we specify > > an interface to talk to, based on a brand name. > > Because the SCSI disk driver does not know about SCSI controllers. It > talks to CAM, and CAM passes commands to the SCSI controller, and SCSI > controller drivers *do* have different names depending on the brand, > so your analogy fails. No it doesn't. If we accept your universe, then he's just asking for an ethernet device driver that doesn't know about ethernet controllers. Editting your reply, we get: ] Because the ethernet driver does not know about ethernet controllers. ] It talks to EN0, and EN0 passes commands to the ethernet controller, ] and ethernet controller drivers *do* have different names depending ] on the brand, so this makes ethernet exactly like SCSI disks, in ] that it has an abstraction that simplifies device naming. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 29 3:15:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx-a.qnet.com (mx-a.qnet.com [209.221.198.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C45337B617 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 03:11:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cello.qnet.com (stork@cello.qnet.com [209.221.198.10]) by mx-a.qnet.com (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA24213; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 03:11:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (stork@localhost) by cello.qnet.com (8.9.0/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA06300; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 03:11:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cello.qnet.com: stork owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 03:11:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Heredity Choice To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Salvo Bartolotta , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unix 2000... In-Reply-To: <20000928165631.Y7553@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have heard that Microsoft plans to convert the Hotmail.com servers from FreeBSD to Windows. I am having to write this letter on FreeBSD because I can't get Windows 2000 Advanced Server to see my modem, an internal Sportster. Let us hope that Bill Gates has better luck than I have had with Windows. Paul Smith stork@qnet.com > And don't believe everything you read, classical Solaris and other > high end UNIX systems still beat the pants off NT in terms of > stability and scalability. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 29 4:42:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 468CB37B43C for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 04:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA72706; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 13:42:18 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Robert Clark Cc: bright@wintelcom.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, hamellr@heorot.1nova.com Subject: Re: Unix 2000... References: <200009290705.AAA01365@gte.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 29 Sep 2000 13:42:18 +0200 In-Reply-To: Robert Clark's message of "Fri, 29 Sep 2000 00:05:50 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Robert Clark writes: > From Rick's descriptions, sounds like Microsoft is beginning to copy > OS/2 warp from 1995? OS/2 was a joint IBM/Microsoft project, so similarities between OS/2 and Windows NT are not coincidential. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 29 5:13:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB6A437B424 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 05:12:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id B61DEDD13; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 14:12:12 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200009290115.SAA06192@usr05.primenet.com> References: <200009290115.SAA06192@usr05.primenet.com> Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 14:11:49 +0200 To: Terry Lambert , jrs@enteract.com (John Sconiers) From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: SGI releases XFS under GPL Cc: wjv@cityip.co.za (Johann Visagie), chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:15 AM +0000 2000/9/29, Terry Lambert wrote: > In any case, since you're familiar with XFS, you should be > able to see that metadata integrity is one aspect of XFS, and > is one aspect of soft updates, but the technologies could in > fact complement each other tremendously: they are future > partners, not competitors, since in the majority of cases, > what they bring to the table, other than metadata integrity > guarantees, is non-overlapping. Cool. I couldn't have hoped for a better answer. I'm looking forward to seeing your work on integrating these two filesystem technologies! -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 29 5:25:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from digitaldaemon.com (digitaldaemon.com [63.105.9.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 98C4A37B42C for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 05:24:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 12425 invoked from network); 29 Sep 2000 12:22:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smartsoft.cc) (192.168.0.73) by digitaldaemon.com with SMTP; 29 Sep 2000 12:22:48 -0000 Message-ID: <39D489DA.E43E8D02@smartsoft.cc> Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 08:23:54 -0400 From: Jan Knepper Organization: Smartsoft, LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Siegbert Baude Cc: questions@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pulse poll at Borland References: <3073B3378589D411B21600508BAF32AA012345@EXCHANGE> <39D11CB1.78C07758@gmx.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Siegbert Baude wrote: > How many people are subscribed here? :-) Well, I am... I have been using Borland C/C++ compilers for over 10 years and always get rather annoyed when I see they support Linux, but no BSD... I wasn't that fond about their C++Builder so far, but they seem to have improved the compiler a lot in 5.0. At least the code generation is comming close to that of my favorite compiler. Don't worry, be Kneppie! Jan -- Jan Knepper Smartsoft, LLC 88 Petersburg Road Petersburg, NJ 08270 U.S.A. http://www.smartsoft.cc/ http://www.mp3.com/pianoprincess Phone : 609-628-4260 FAX : 609-628-1267 FAX : 303-845-6415 http://www.fax4free.com/ Phone : 020-873-3837 http://www.xoip.nl/ (Dutch) FAX : 020-873-3837 http://www.xoip.nl/ (Dutch) In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 29 5:43:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from relay2.inwind.it (relay2.inwind.it [212.141.53.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAD1D37B422 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 05:43:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bartequi.ottodomain.org (212.141.78.228) by relay2.inwind.it (5.1.046) id 39CB097900109893; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 14:42:45 +0200 From: Salvo Bartolotta Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 13:43:29 GMT Message-ID: <20000929.13432900@bartequi.ottodomain.org> Subject: Re: Unix 2000... To: Heredity Choice Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: X-Mailer: SuperCalifragilis X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< On 9/29/00, 11:11:47 AM, Heredity Choice wrote regarding Re: Unix 2000...: > I have heard that Microsoft plans to convert the Hotmail.com servers from > FreeBSD to Windows. I am having to write this letter on FreeBSD because I > can't get Windows 2000 Advanced Server to see my modem, an internal > Sportster. Let us hope that Bill Gates has better luck than I have had= > with Windows. > Paul Smith > stork@qnet.com I seem to understand that the process is far from completion. The difficulties on the part of M$ clearly show that NT is decidedly not the right tool for the job. If they are bent on wasting time (and money) on this project, then so be it. On the other hand, others might argue that they [have] NEVER meant to design the right tool. But that's another story :-) Best regards, Salvo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 29 6: 0:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A54037B422 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 06:00:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA72959; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 15:00:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: Heredity Choice , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unix 2000... References: <20000929.13432900@bartequi.ottodomain.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 29 Sep 2000 15:00:01 +0200 In-Reply-To: Salvo Bartolotta's message of "Fri, 29 Sep 2000 13:43:29 GMT" Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Salvo Bartolotta writes: > I seem to understand that the process is far from completion. The > difficulties on the part of M$ clearly show that NT is decidedly not > the right tool for the job. If they are bent on wasting time (and > money) on this project, then so be it. AFAIK, they're transitioning to Windows 2000, not NT. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 29 6:23: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from relay2.inwind.it (relay2.inwind.it [212.141.53.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9406137B422 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 06:23:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bartequi.ottodomain.org (62.98.153.26) by relay2.inwind.it (5.1.046) id 39CB09790010A8F2; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 15:21:55 +0200 From: Salvo Bartolotta Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 14:22:38 GMT Message-ID: <20000929.14223800@bartequi.ottodomain.org> Subject: Re: Unix 2000... To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: stork@QNET.COM, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: References: <20000929.13432900@bartequi.ottodomain.org> X-Mailer: SuperCalifragilis X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< On 9/29/00, 2:00:01 PM, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote=20 regarding Re: Unix 2000...: > Salvo Bartolotta writes: > > I seem to understand that the process is far from completion. The > > difficulties on the part of M$ clearly show that NT is decidedly not= > > the right tool for the job. If they are bent on wasting time (and > > money) on this project, then so be it. > AFAIK, they're transitioning to Windows 2000, not NT. NT5 or Windows 2000 does not make much difference as to the final=20 result, does it ? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 29 7:15:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from heorot.1nova.com (sub24-23.member.dsl-only.net [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DDC237B422 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 07:15:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BA5AE328D; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 06:39:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7527328C; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 06:39:51 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 06:39:51 +0000 (GMT) From: Rick Hamell To: Robert Clark Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unix 2000... In-Reply-To: <200009290705.AAA01365@gte.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >From Rick's descriptions, sounds like Microsoft is > beginning to copy OS/2 warp from 1995? > > OS/2 had an /etc dir, a hosts file, services, etc. I wouldn't know... OS/2 just wouldn't run on my poor ol P-75 at the time... Linux wouldn't load. Windows 3.11 ran just fine though.... :) Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 29 7:24:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from heorot.1nova.com (sub24-23.member.dsl-only.net [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACFFC37B422 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 07:24:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 46E08328D; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 06:48:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26639328C; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 06:48:16 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 06:48:16 +0000 (GMT) From: Rick Hamell To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unix 2000... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I seem to understand that the process is far from completion. The > > difficulties on the part of M$ clearly show that NT is decidedly not > > the right tool for the job. If they are bent on wasting time (and > > money) on this project, then so be it. > > AFAIK, they're transitioning to Windows 2000, not NT. All through this class it's been; "This is what NT does wrong, 2000 does it better." Which then turns out to be a pseudo-Unix way of doing it... :) The instructor is constantly rolling his eyes and complaining about the legendary NT stability and is fond of telling stories where NT didn't work, but by GOD 2000 did... :) Then I point out that I know of companies who've been doing the same thing on Unix, with less hardware for a long time. He also points out that you should have at least 256 megs of RAM and 2, preferabbly 4 gigs of harddrive space for a straight install! I started laughing at that point..... Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 29 11:10:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hand.dotat.at (hand.dotat.at [212.240.134.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CADA837B505 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 11:10:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fanf by hand.dotat.at with local (Exim 3.15 #3) id 13f4bn-0000se-00; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 18:10:07 +0000 Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 18:10:07 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: Terry Lambert Cc: John Sconiers , Brad Knowles , Johann Visagie , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SGI releases XFS under GPL Message-ID: <20000929181007.A3345@hand.dotat.at> References: <200009290115.SAA06192@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200009290115.SAA06192@usr05.primenet.com> Organization: Covalent Technologies, Inc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > >A common misconception about soft updates is that you can get >the same failure recovery that you would get from journalling >or logging. [...] > >The flaw with this theory is that a power failure is not the >only type of crash you could have, and running after any >crash that can corrupt any portion of the disk (e.g. most >disks corrupt sectors if power is lost during a write, and >in the evnt of a kernel panic, you don't know what data was >corrupted in core, then erroneously written to disk before >the actual panic, etc.), puts you at risk of further disk >corruption and user space software failures. In the worst >case, the crash was the result of a hardware failure of the >disk subsystem (disk, controller, cables, terminator, etc.). >So it is impossible to recover without an exterior log of >the events leading up to the crash (this is how the WAFL >file system from Network Appliance works: it uses an NVRAM >intention log). I'm not sure this argument is entirely sound: it also applies to journalling filesystems where the log is kept on disk. Even if the journal isn't on disk (the WAFL case) you can still be vulnerable to hardware failures -- I've heard of a NetApp becoming completely unusable after a disk decided to fail silently, the only way to recover being to copy the parts of the filesystem that didn't crash the NetApp to another machine. Tony. -- en oeccget g mtcaa f.a.n.finch v spdlkishrhtewe y dot@dotat.at eatp o v eiti i d. fanf@covalent.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 29 17: 1:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63A3937B503; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 17:01:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e8U01Hc22113; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 17:01:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 17:01:17 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: "Brian F. Feldman" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Status of FreeBSD-SA-00:41.elf? Message-ID: <20000929170116.U27736@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000927182443.7666.qmail@smx.pair.com> <200009280516.e8S5Gi507297@green.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <200009280516.e8S5Gi507297@green.dyndns.org>; from green@FreeBSD.ORG on Thu, Sep 28, 2000 at 01:16:44AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Brian F. Feldman [000929 16:19] wrote: > > > > > Taking into account that you've tested it, now I'd be able to MFC it :) > It's just not a good idea to use 3.X anyway -- the 4.X series has started > off and continued much stronger than 3.X. It was a stretch even doing the > last 3.5-RELEASE because of so much general feeling of, "ugh, why should > anyone use 3.X?" among the crew. > > I should say we would do well to stop "supporting" 3.X anymore and let > people know (a bit louder perhaps?) 3.5 is the end of the line for 3.X and > the proper solution is an upgrade to _4.X_. It's simply not very > interesting or useful to be supporting something that should be phased out > instead of "sorta upgraded" to the latest small increment of a quietly > dying line. > We could make it so that the next cvsup of 3.5.x installs an installer kernel that fires up sysinstall at boot. :) Of course I'm kidding. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 29 17:47:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C08B37B503 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 17:47:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-71-125.dialup.hiwaay.net [216.180.71.125]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e8U0lD731765 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 19:47:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id e8T49ja38223 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2000 23:09:46 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <200009290409.e8T49ja38223@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CD writers - recommendations In-Reply-To: Message from John Galt of "Thu, 28 Sep 2000 21:29:16 MDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 23:09:45 -0500 From: David Kelly Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Galt writes: > On 28 Sep 2000, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > The reason why ATAPI CD-ROM burners are so sensitive to CPU load is > > that they don't support disconnection or tagged queueing, so commands > > must be sent sequentially and the CPU must wait for them to complete. > > So IOW IDE devices throw an interrupt whenever they're operating, SCSI > devices throw an interrupt only whenever the host adapter is starving for > commands. Sounds exactly like what I wsas saying in the first place, just > using proper terminology... I just now kicked off bonnie on my Symbios 875 UWSCSI card and IBM fast-wide SCSI drive. Initially saw 550 IRQ/sec on sym0 for 160 tps in systat -v, since then there has been at least 50% more IRQ's than t's. On another machine with UDMA100 drive on UDMA33 interface I see exactly 1:1 IRQ to transfer ratio. Yet that really has nothing to do with it at all. Only pointing out John's statements are made without corraborating evidence. The whole point of tagged queueing is the device can respond to requests in the easiest order, not the requested order? Isn't that the whole point of queuing 128 pending commands to the drive, that it can optimize its seeks? So what does that have to do with a CD-R? Since when is there anything out of order that it should be allowed to do while cutting a disc? Agreed that you don't want the source to run off doing something else for so long that the CD-R starves. But that is a real time issue. Actually its an issue that IDE drives serve better than SCSI as in a real time system "fast" is not as important as "predictable." I said it before, will say it again. IDE devices were designed to be cheap, and a good number of IDE devices live down to that expectation. But they don't *have* to live down to it. From what I've seen with my 15G IBM UDMA100 drives I probably won't be buying SCSI HD's for a while. I'm not building high volume internet servers and don't know if the thruput I've observed scales. As for CD-R and tape drives, I still believe the best devices have SCSI interfaces but suspect they will soon migrate to Firewire. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 29 17:57:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.sunesi.net (ns1.sunesi.net [196.15.192.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC79E37B502; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 17:57:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nbm by ns1.sunesi.net with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 13fAxo-0002hp-00; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 02:57:16 +0200 Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 02:57:16 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Blackman Cc: Kris Kennaway , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/mail/pine4 Makefile (fwd) Message-ID: <20000930025715.A10388@mithrandr.moria.org> References: <200009292349.TAA07263@giganda.komkon.org> <008b01c02a71$6b8938c0$d04379a5@p4f0i0> <20000929172644.C6456@freefall.freebsd.org> <100115743330.20000930044717@bignet.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <100115743330.20000930044717@bignet.ru>; from blackman@bignet.ru on Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 04:47:17AM +0400 Organization: Sunesi Clinical Systems X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat 2000-09-30 (04:47), Blackman wrote: > First: sorry, may be it's spam: :-) > > Pine users&security administrators: "The Author! The Author!!!" We have a saying in one of my groups: "from the people who brought you wu-ftpd and UW-IMAP..." More than enough said. Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner Sunesi Clinical Systems nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 29 21:37:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AEF437B503; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 21:37:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA00333; Fri, 29 Sep 2000 21:39:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200009300439.VAA00333@implode.root.com> To: advocacy@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: New download record for ftp.freesoftware.com From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 21:39:49 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FYI, this just went out on PRNewswire... INTERNET'S BUSIEST OPENSOURCE SOFTWARE ARCHIVE SETS NEW DOWNLOAD RECORD Portland, OR, September 29, 2000 TeraSolutions, Inc. and Lightning Internet Services announced today that a popular OpenSource software archive at ftp.freesoftware.com, which was built and maintained by TeraSolutions, Inc., has surpassed the two trillion bytes (two terabytes) milestone of files downloaded per day from a single server machine. The new record was set after the simultaneous releases of Red Hat Linux 7.0 and FreeBSD 4.1.1, two very popular free operating systems for Intel Architecture computers. "We're very pleased to have servers that we built, running the FreeBSD operating system, set new milestones like this. It really shows just how well our large servers can perform in real-world situations using freely available software", said David Greenman, TeraSolutions' President and co-founder. "Equally impressive is the server's stability. It was pumping out upwards of 300 million bits per second to over 3000 users at a time for the past several days without a glitch and has been operating crash-free under similarly high loads for nearly two months now." The server machine was installed earlier this year at Lightning Internet Services' co-location facility in New York City. "Lightning is very excited about this achievement and demonstrates that our network can easily support the likes of Linux and FreeBSD. While Lightning continues to be a leader in providing network services, bandwidth and co-location facilities to ISP's, carriers, and content providers, this event clearly validates our network performance and reliability", states Steve Nash, Lightning's Director of Engineering. Reid Fishler, President and founder of Lightning adds, "We are happy to be working with TeraSolutions and supporting the efforts of Linux and FreeBSD to revolutionize the OS environment." Based in Portland, Oregon, TeraSolutions is a manufacturer of high reliability, high performance rack-mount Internet server and RAID storage systems. The company specializes in building the highest traffic Internet servers in the world and is a leading supplier of RAID storage systems to Internet content providers and ISP's. TeraSolutions was founded in 1999 by FreeBSD co-founder David Greenman and industry veteran Marc Frajola. For more information, visit www.terasolutions.com, contact them directly at +1 503 288 9544, or email info@terasolutions.com. Lightning Internet Services (New York) is a leading provider of Internet connectivity and sophisticated network solutions to small and medium size businesses and other ISP's. Lightning was recently selected as one of the Top 5 Rising Stars representing the fastest growing technology companies on Long Island, N.Y. at the Fast 50 Awards presented by Deloitte & Touche. Lightning provides businesses with a comprehensive range of value-added products and services such as xDSL Internet service, Virtual Private Networks, high-speed network access, consulting, and co-location services. Lightning's array of expertise is designed for businesses to take advantage of their corporate networks and leverage the Internet to effectively grow their on-line business strategy and integrate communication services. For further information about Lightning Internet Services, LLC, please contact Chris Kern at (800) 845-0146, visit http://www.lightning.net/ or email chrisk@lightning.net. -DG David Greenman Co-founder, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org President, TeraSolutions, Inc. - http://www.terasolutions.com Pave the road of life with opportunities. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 30 0:28:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost01.reflexnet.net (mailhost01.reflexnet.net [64.6.192.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9513037B502 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 00:28:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com ([64.6.211.149]) by mailhost01.reflexnet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Sat, 30 Sep 2000 00:24:58 -0700 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e8U7Q7K24782; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 00:26:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 00:26:06 -0700 From: "Crist J . Clark" To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Salvo Bartolotta , Heredity Choice , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unix 2000... Message-ID: <20000930002606.Q81242@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <20000929.13432900@bartequi.ottodomain.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 03:00:01PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 03:00:01PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Salvo Bartolotta writes: > > I seem to understand that the process is far from completion. The > > difficulties on the part of M$ clearly show that NT is decidedly not > > the right tool for the job. If they are bent on wasting time (and > > money) on this project, then so be it. > > AFAIK, they're transitioning to Windows 2000, not NT. Yup. Looks like they are really doing it this time. The chatter at the last BAFUG was that they have pretty much replaced the FreeBSD-Apache machines. Anyone care to whack at the site to see what servers are responding? ;) Here are some news articles, but they are all about two months old. http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/article/0,,3_428711,00.html http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2610894,00.html http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/1/12290.html http://www.bsdtoday.com/2000/August/Newswire24 http://www.ugeek.com/news/geeknews/q22000/gee2000803002036.htm -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 30 4:54:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from relay2.inwind.it (relay2.inwind.it [212.141.53.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3F9E37B503 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 04:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bartequi.ottodomain.org (62.98.154.171) by relay2.inwind.it (5.1.046) id 39CB09790012DF6D; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 13:53:29 +0200 From: Salvo Bartolotta Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 12:54:13 GMT Message-ID: <20000930.12541300@bartequi.ottodomain.org> Subject: Re: Unix 2000... To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20000929.13432900@bartequi.ottodomain.org> <20000930002606.Q81242@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> X-Mailer: SuperCalifragilis X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< On 9/30/00, 8:26:06 AM, "Crist J . Clark" wrote regarding Re: Unix 2000...: > On Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 03:00:01PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Salvo Bartolotta writes: > > > I seem to understand that the process is far from completion. The > > > difficulties on the part of M$ clearly show that NT is decidedly n= ot > > > the right tool for the job. If they are bent on wasting time (and > > > money) on this project, then so be it. > > > > AFAIK, they're transitioning to Windows 2000, not NT. > Yup. Looks like they are really doing it this time. The chatter at the= > last BAFUG was that they have pretty much replaced the FreeBSD-Apache > machines. Anyone care to whack at the site to see what servers are > responding? ;) > Here are some news articles, but they are all about two months old. > http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/article/0,,3_428711,00.html > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2610894,00.html > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/1/12290.html > http://www.bsdtoday.com/2000/August/Newswire24 > http://www.ugeek.com/news/geeknews/q22000/gee2000803002036.htm Oooops, I still had the 10% or so percentage in mind :-) Summing up: if the operation is completed within this fall, the initial move to Windows NT 4, then to NT5, ahem, Windows2000, will have required a 4-year effort -- it was promised in 1997. Four years... hmmm, correct me if I am wrong or partial: in four years, the FreeBSD Project not only developed a whole operating system, but also achieved technical excellence. I see that move as an immense waste of money and time on the part of M$. Moreover, I am not quite sure Windows2000 will be able to handle **that** load; only time will tell. What strikes me most is the **enormous** deployment of resources aimed at producing a *monster* that is no match to Unices; the mountain bore a little mouse... The statement, made in 1998 by certain well-known authors, that NT was a modern [sic] OS, designed and implemented in a completely different way from Unix [sic], sounds humo(u)rous today, in the light of what has been said in the "Unix 2000..." thread :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 30 10:33: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.8.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8302C37B503; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 10:33:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mead2.u.washington.edu (kraemer@mead2.u.washington.edu [140.142.12.164]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.9.3+UW00.05/8.9.3+UW00.01) with ESMTP id KAA19798; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 10:32:58 -0700 Received: from localhost (kraemer@localhost) by mead2.u.washington.edu (8.9.3+UW00.05/8.9.3+UW99.09) with ESMTP id KAA101118; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 10:32:57 -0700 Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 10:32:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Kraemer To: Neil Blakey-Milner Cc: Blackman , Kris Kennaway , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/mail/pine4 Makefile (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20000930025715.A10388@mithrandr.moria.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 30 Sep 2000, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > We have a saying in one of my groups: > > "from the people who brought you wu-ftpd and UW-IMAP..." > > More than enough said. UW is the University of Washington in Seattle, WA. WU is Washington University in St. Louis, MO. Pine and UW-IMAP come from UW, wu-ftpd comes from Wash U. -Brian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 30 19: 4:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF59937B502 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 19:04:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA17282; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 19:04:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAwVa4SH; Sat Sep 30 19:04:29 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA18049; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 19:04:05 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200010010204.TAA18049@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Unix 2000... To: bartequi@inwind.it (Salvo Bartolotta) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 02:03:47 +0000 (GMT) Cc: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000930.12541300@bartequi.ottodomain.org> from "Salvo Bartolotta" at Sep 30, 2000 12:54:13 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Four years... hmmm, correct me if I am wrong or partial: in four > years, the FreeBSD Project not only developed a whole operating > system, but also achieved technical excellence. FreeBSD started from 386BSD ~ June of 1994. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 30 19:22:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FE5537B503 for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 19:22:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) id e912MLH44369; Sun, 1 Oct 2000 11:52:21 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 11:52:21 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Terry Lambert Cc: Salvo Bartolotta , cjclark@alum.mit.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: The origins of FreeBSD (was: Unix 2000...) Message-ID: <20001001115221.H43885@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20000930.12541300@bartequi.ottodomain.org> <200010010204.TAA18049@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200010010204.TAA18049@usr05.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 02:03:47AM +0000 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 1 October 2000 at 2:03:47 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >> Four years... hmmm, correct me if I am wrong or partial: in four >> years, the FreeBSD Project not only developed a whole operating >> system, but also achieved technical excellence. > > FreeBSD started from 386BSD ~ June of 1994. No, you're out by a year. Mid-1993. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 30 19:41: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64DB237B66F for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 19:40:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA19545; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 19:39:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAIjaqkM; Sat Sep 30 19:39:27 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA18898; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 19:40:52 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200010010240.TAA18898@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: The origins of FreeBSD (was: Unix 2000...) To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 02:40:52 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), bartequi@inwind.it (Salvo Bartolotta), cjclark@alum.mit.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20001001115221.H43885@wantadilla.lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Oct 01, 2000 11:52:21 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Sunday, 1 October 2000 at 2:03:47 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > >> Four years... hmmm, correct me if I am wrong or partial: in four > >> years, the FreeBSD Project not only developed a whole operating > >> system, but also achieved technical excellence. > > > > FreeBSD started from 386BSD ~ June of 1994. > > No, you're out by a year. Mid-1993. I was approached to be on the core team in May of 1994, which I declined because of the upcoming USL purchase by my then employer Novel UNIX Systems Group, which could have put FreeBSD on shaky legal ground with regards to intellectual property, were I a core team member. I didn't leave Novell for Artisoft, until I had rallied the troops to first get FreeBSD and NetBSD the same grace period that BSDI got (rather than a "cease and desist" order), and later, to get the lawsuit dropped entirely. I left for Artisoft on October 20th, 1994. If you want to pick nits, you could go to the archive on Minnie, and check out the Usenet article in which Lynne lambasted the patchkit, and the later one in which Bill withdrew permission for the 0.5 interim release. That was _truly_ the birthday of FreeBSD. If you want to count the work on 386BSD that was rolled in and later became FreeBSD, then Mid 1993 was about when the 0.5 386BSD interim release by the patch kit maintainers was OK'ed by Bill Jolitz. If you want to count the origins of the patchkit, I did the first patch to the VM system in about February, and published it in the first "386BSD unofficial FAQ", which led to my creation of the patchkit, as the patches got too big and too interrelated to publish in the FAQ. If you want to go back to the origins of 386BSD, that was about the end of the first quarter in 1992, though it wasn't published widely until later. If you want to trace the lineage further, I think you could trace it back to Bell Labs in 1974 or so. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 30 19:46:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A1D037B66C for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 19:46:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA22881; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 20:46:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000930182745.0484cbe0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 18:29:22 -0600 To: Johann Visagie , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: SGI releases XFS under GPL In-Reply-To: <20000928104939.B13020@fling.sanbi.ac.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:49 AM 9/28/2000, Johann Visagie wrote: >Our Irix sysadmin here has been going on about SGI's XFS journaling >filesystem for some time. I see on /. they've now released a beta of XFS >under GPL for Linux: > > http://oss.sgi.com/projects/xfs/beta.html > >I'm idly wondering whether it would be possible (or indeed desirable) to port >this to FreeBSD. Not if it's under the GPL, because this malicious "poison pill" license would further infect the source tree. Perhaps if SGI were willing to release it to the FreeBSD project under a license which is compatible with the BSD license.... --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 30 20:37: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AAED37B66C for ; Sat, 30 Sep 2000 20:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) id e913aa678450; Sun, 1 Oct 2000 13:06:36 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 13:06:36 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Terry Lambert Cc: Salvo Bartolotta , cjclark@alum.mit.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The origins of FreeBSD (was: Unix 2000...) Message-ID: <20001001130636.K43885@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20001001115221.H43885@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200010010240.TAA18898@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200010010240.TAA18898@usr05.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 02:40:52AM +0000 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 1 October 2000 at 2:40:52 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >> On Sunday, 1 October 2000 at 2:03:47 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >>>> Four years... hmmm, correct me if I am wrong or partial: in four >>>> years, the FreeBSD Project not only developed a whole operating >>>> system, but also achieved technical excellence. >>> >>> FreeBSD started from 386BSD ~ June of 1994. >> >> No, you're out by a year. Mid-1993. > > I was approached to be on the core team in May of 1994, which > I declined because of the upcoming USL purchase by my then > employer Novel UNIX Systems Group, which could have put FreeBSD > on shaky legal ground with regards to intellectual property, > were I a core team member. I didn't leave Novell for Artisoft, > until I had rallied the troops to first get FreeBSD and NetBSD > the same grace period that BSDI got (rather than a "cease and > desist" order), and later, to get the lawsuit dropped entirely. > I left for Artisoft on October 20th, 1994. > > If you want to pick nits, you could go to the archive on Minnie, > and check out the Usenet article in which Lynne lambasted the > patchkit, and the later one in which Bill withdrew permission > for the 0.5 interim release. That was _truly_ the birthday of > FreeBSD. Agreed, it's a good idea to check sources before sending mail. But since you obviously haven't been able to find it, I don't see why I should follow this particular source. I'll quote a different source instead, the release notes for FreeBSD 1.0: === root@wantadilla (/dev/ttyp6) /cd/8/cdinstal 26 -> ls -l /cd/8/cdinstal/ total 3 -rw-rw-r-- 1 root wheel 2356 Nov 22 1993 INSTALL.TXT -rw-rw-r-- 1 root wheel 1228800 Nov 22 1993 cdins_ah.flp -rw-rw-r-- 1 root wheel 1228800 Nov 22 1993 cdins_bt.flp === root@wantadilla (/dev/ttyp6) /cd/8/cdinstal 27 -> cat INSTALL.TXT CDROM FLOPPY INSTALLATION NOTES FreeBSD Release 1.0 Welcome to FreeBSD! This document has been put together in an effort to make initial installation of the system from floppy as easy as possible. If you have either a SCSI cdrom drive or one of the supported Mitsumi CDROM drives you can use the cdins-*.flp to install you system with. This is much easier than using the 3 floppy install method. Apart from that, I first went to Walnut Creek CDROM on Tuesday, 28 September 1993, and met Rod Grimes there. They also had a FreeBSD poster on the wall (the same one that went on the 1.0 distribution CD-ROM). > If you want to go back to the origins of 386BSD, that was about > the end of the first quarter in 1992, though it wasn't published > widely until later. Right, mid-March IIRC, but I can't find the announcement. 0.1 was sent out on 14 July 1992, with some strange reference to the French National Day. > If you want to trace the lineage further, I think you could trace it > back to Bell Labs in 1974 or so. 8-). 1969. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message