From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 1 2:44: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from relay2.inwind.it (relay2.inwind.it [212.141.53.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 420AA37B502 for ; Sun, 1 Oct 2000 02:44:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bartequi.ottodomain.org (62.98.154.172) by relay2.inwind.it (5.1.046) id 39CB09790014593D; Sun, 1 Oct 2000 11:43:11 +0200 From: Salvo Bartolotta Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 10:43:57 GMT Message-ID: <20001001.10435700@bartequi.ottodomain.org> Subject: The oirgins of FreeBSD (was Re: Unix 2000..). To: Terry Lambert Cc: Greg Lehey , cjclark@alum.mit.edu, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <200010010204.TAA18049@usr05.primenet.com> X-Mailer: SuperCalifragilis X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< On 10/1/00, 3:03:47 AM, Terry Lambert wrote regarding Re: Unix 2000...: > > Four years... hmmm, correct me if I am wrong or partial: in four > > years, the FreeBSD Project not only developed a whole operating > > system, but also achieved technical excellence. > FreeBSD started from 386BSD ~ June of 1994. Yes, FreeBSD was certainly NOT started in 1997 :-) I was stressing the fact that, over a **span** of four years, the FreeBSD Project achieved[1] technical excellence. Since nobody has questioned that, I can safely assume it is fully true :-)) On the other hand, the FreeBSD Projects **sought** technical excellence (for those four years); or rather, it **has been seeking** technical excellence -- since the start of the Project /* up to now */ :-) [1] Past Tense "holistically" describing a "definite" past event, NOT Present Perfect: ie no "up-to-now" implication. One of the features of the English language I like most is the aspect of the action. It somehow reminds me of ancient Greek. But that's another story :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 1 13:47:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from relay2.inwind.it (relay2.inwind.it [212.141.53.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B12137B502 for ; Sun, 1 Oct 2000 13:47:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bartequi.ottodomain.org (62.98.154.71) by relay2.inwind.it (5.1.046) id 39CB09790015DF48; Sun, 1 Oct 2000 22:46:40 +0200 From: Salvo Bartolotta Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 21:47:25 GMT Message-ID: <20001001.21472500@bartequi.ottodomain.org> Subject: Re: Another 4.1-S panic (full report) To: Bill Fumerola Cc: BSD , "Jeffrey J. Mountin" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <4.3.2.20001001132645.00cae340@207.227.119.2> <20001001154131.Y38472@jade.chc-chimes.com> <20001001.20514000@bartequi.ottodomain.org> <20001001155807.Z38472@jade.chc-chimes.com> X-Mailer: SuperCalifragilis X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ redirected to -chat ] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< On 10/1/00, 8:58:07 PM, Bill Fumerola wrote regarding Re: Another 4.1-S panic (full report): > On Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 08:51:40PM +0000, Salvo Bartolotta wrote: > > LINT (cvsup'ed yesterday) states: > > > >
> > > > # NO_F00F_HACK disables the hack that prevents Pentiums (and ONLY > > # Pentiums) from locking up when a LOCK CMPXCHG8B instruction is > > # executed. This should be included for ALL kernels that won't run > > # on a Pentium. > > > >
> > > > Either the statement in LINT is not correct, or your statement is no= t > > correct. Tertium non datur :-) > > > > Seriously: if NO_F00F_HACK is only used in conjunction with pentiums= > > (I586_CPU), then LINT should be modified accordingly. > ./i386/identcpu.c:#if defined(I586_CPU) && !defined(NO_F00F_HACK) > ./i386/identcpu.c:#if defined(I586_CPU) && !defined(NO_F00F_HACK) > ./i386/machdep.c:#if defined(I586_CPU) && !defined(NO_F00F_HACK) > ./i386/machdep.c:#if defined(I586_CPU) && !defined(NO_F00F_HACK) > ./i386/machdep.c:#endif /* defined(I586_CPU) && !NO_F00F_HACK */ > ./i386/mp_machdep.c:#if defined(I586_CPU) && !defined(NO_F00F_HACK) > ./i386/trap.c:#if defined(I586_CPU) && !defined(NO_F00F_HACK) > ./i386/trap.c:#if defined(I586_CPU) && !defined(NO_F00F_HACK) > ./i386/trap.c:#if defined(I586_CPU) && !defined(NO_F00F_HACK) > ./i386/trap.c:#if defined(I586_CPU) && !defined(NO_F00F_HACK) > So, because the microphone evidently wasn't on the first time: > If you don't define I586_CPU, NO_F00F_HACK does nothing. I am afraid you missed my point. And I am afraid the reverse is true: I did pay attention. In the last sentence of my previous letter (see above), I suggested modifying LINT if it was incorrect. I did NOT state that you were certainly wrong. You have just shown that LINT IS incorrect. By the way, Jeffrey Mountin has actually just suggested a possible modification. I should have had a look at the code first; this is certainly my only fault *blushing like a primary school pupil not having done his/her homework* :-) Best regards, Salvo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 1 15:49:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from inconnu.isu.edu (inconnu.isu.edu [134.50.8.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3542537B503; Sun, 1 Oct 2000 15:49:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (galt@localhost) by inconnu.isu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA30510; Sun, 1 Oct 2000 16:49:17 -0600 Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 16:49:17 -0600 (MDT) From: John Galt To: Neil Blakey-Milner Cc: Blackman , Kris Kennaway , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/mail/pine4 Makefile (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20000930025715.A10388@mithrandr.moria.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Uwashington is slightly different than WashingtonU--UW is in Settle, WA; Washington (the wu in wu-ftpd) is in Saint Louis, MO... However, UW is still responsible for IMAP On Sat, 30 Sep 2000, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > On Sat 2000-09-30 (04:47), Blackman wrote: > > First: sorry, may be it's spam: :-) > > > > Pine users&security administrators: "The Author! The Author!!!" > > We have a saying in one of my groups: > > "from the people who brought you wu-ftpd and UW-IMAP..." > > More than enough said. > > Neil > -- Galt's sci-fi paradox: Stormtroopers versus Redshirts to the death. Who is John Galt? galt@inconnu.isu.edu, that's who! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 2 3:37:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B85B537B502 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 03:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA86948; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 12:37:09 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Rick Hamell Cc: Robert Clark , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unix 2000... References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 02 Oct 2000 12:37:09 +0200 In-Reply-To: Rick Hamell's message of "Thu, 28 Sep 2000 06:39:51 +0000 (GMT)" Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rick Hamell writes: > I wouldn't know... OS/2 just wouldn't run on my poor ol P-75 at > the time... Linux wouldn't load. Windows 3.11 ran just fine though.... :) I ran Warp on a 486DX33. Even installed it from floppies! But the best OS on that machine (before I discovered Unix) was Windows 3.11 with Win32S extensions. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 2 3:40: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blizzard.sabbo.net (blizzard.sabbo.net [193.193.218.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B429537B503; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 03:39:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vic.sabbo.net (root@[193.193.218.95]) by blizzard.sabbo.net (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA04176; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 13:39:20 +0300 (EEST) Received: from FreeBSD.org (big_brother.vega.com [192.168.1.1]) by vic.sabbo.net (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id e92AdhF63789; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 13:39:43 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from sobomax@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <39D865ED.50E0C4B5@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 13:39:41 +0300 From: Maxim Sobolev Organization: Vega International Capital X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: uk,ru,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Will Andrews Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: CVSROOT access References: <200010011443.HAA67887@freefall.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Will Andrews wrote: > will 2000/10/01 07:43:51 PDT > > Modified files: > . access > Log: > Please welcome > > 1) James E. Houlsey , for bringing and maintaining > ~50 RTEMS-related ports along with a number of others. > 2) Trevor Johnson , for bringing in the festival family > of audio ports among other unusual audio ports; he also gave us > the BSDI Netscape ports. > 3) Mario Sergio Fujikawa Ferriera , for finally > updating and maintaining codecrusader, among other ports. This was > a result of his laborious JX ports' split-up and creation. He is > also known for maintaining the qmail port. Wellcome aboard, gentlemen! > Mentor: will ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ <- Poor, old will - starting from now he will be abu^H^H^Hasked for a help from the tree ends at once, so KDE2 will probably stand still and GNOME will take over it, at least in FreeBSD. -Maxim To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 2 3:43:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56EE337B503 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 03:43:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA86973; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 12:43:43 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: David Kelly Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CD writers - recommendations References: <200009290409.e8T49ja38223@nospam.hiwaay.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 02 Oct 2000 12:43:42 +0200 In-Reply-To: David Kelly's message of "Thu, 28 Sep 2000 23:09:45 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Kelly writes: > Agreed that you don't want the source to run off doing something else > for so long that the CD-R starves. But that is a real time issue. > Actually its an issue that IDE drives serve better than SCSI as in a > real time system "fast" is not as important as "predictable." No, the problem is that you need to do more than just write to the CD burner, and without tagged queueing, you don't get a chance to do much of anything else. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 2 4:29:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D05AC37B502; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 04:29:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA87118; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 13:29:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Mario Sergio Fujikawa Ferreira" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Not so quick self-introduction :) References: <20001002012009.A41414@Fedaykin.here> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 02 Oct 2000 13:29:19 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Mario Sergio Fujikawa Ferreira"'s message of "Mon, 2 Oct 2000 01:20:09 -0200" Message-ID: Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Mario Sergio Fujikawa Ferreira" writes: > I am a fresh ports committer being sponsored by Will Andrews (will). > Hi, Mom. Your mother reads -committers? Wow. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 2 6:34:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from puck.firepipe.net (mcut-b-167.resnet.purdue.edu [128.211.209.167]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C0EE37B502; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 06:34:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by puck.firepipe.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 782711921; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 08:34:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 08:34:31 -0500 From: Will Andrews To: Maxim Sobolev Cc: Will Andrews , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: CVSROOT access Message-ID: <20001002083431.W613@puck.firepipe.net> Reply-To: Will Andrews References: <200010011443.HAA67887@freefall.freebsd.org> <39D865ED.50E0C4B5@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <39D865ED.50E0C4B5@FreeBSD.org>; from sobomax@FreeBSD.org on Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 01:39:41PM +0300 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 01:39:41PM +0300, Maxim Sobolev wrote: > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ <- Poor, old will - starting from now he will be > abu^H^H^Hasked for a help from the tree ends at once, so KDE2 will probably stand > still and GNOME will take over it, at least in FreeBSD. BHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! -- Will Andrews - Physics Computer Network wench The Universal Answer to All Problems - "It has something to do with physics." -- Comic on door of Room 240, Physics Building, Purdue University To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 2 8:17:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DA8237B66E for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 08:17:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e92FHTI02240; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 09:17:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id JAA11194; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 09:17:27 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200010021517.JAA11194@harmony.village.org> To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: Not so quick self-introduction :) Cc: "Mario Sergio Fujikawa Ferreira" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org In-reply-to: Your message of "02 Oct 2000 13:29:19 +0200." References: <20001002012009.A41414@Fedaykin.here> Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 09:17:27 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: : "Mario Sergio Fujikawa Ferreira" writes: : > I am a fresh ports committer being sponsored by Will Andrews (will). : > Hi, Mom. : : Your mother reads -committers? Wow. Speaking of females, do we have any female committers? Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 2 10:22:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.swissonline.ch (mail.swissonline.ch [62.2.32.83]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DB5437B503 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 10:22:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (sol-91-44.swissonline.ch [195.24.91.44]) by mail.swissonline.ch (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA00707 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 19:22:01 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <200010021722.TAA00707@mail.swissonline.ch> X-Sender: Educatainment@orell.ch From: ORELL Verkaufs- und Managementseminare To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 19:21:36 +0200 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Aus-&_Weiterbildung_f=FCr_KMU's_und_Abteilungen?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001__7881475_69696" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a Multipart MIME message. ------=_NextPart_000_001__7881475_69696 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sehr geehrte Damen und Herren Haben Sie die Mitarbeiterschulung schon geplant? Wir möchten Ihnen ein attraktives Angebot unterbreiten. Besuchen Sie unsere Websites und informieren Sie sich über die aktuellen Aus- und Weiterbildungsangebote für KMU’s und Abteilungen: • klassische Verkaufs- und Managementtrainings finden Sie bei www.orell.ch (inkl. Trainings für Kommunikation, Kreativität, Sprechen vor Publikum etc.) • individuell gestaltete Ausbildung finden Sie unter www.educatainment.ch Wir freuen uns auf Ihre Kontaktaufnahme. ORELL Verkaufs- und Managementseminare 8802 Kilchberg   Wir möchten Sie mit unserem Angebot nicht belästigen, sondern eine attraktive Dienstleitung anbieten. Sollten wir trotzdem Ihren Unmut geweckt haben, bitten wir um Entschuldigung. Damit wir Ihre Adresse löschen können, klicken Sie REMOVE ------=_NextPart_000_001__7881475_69696 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PEhUTUw+DQo8SEVBRD4NCjxNRVRBIE5BTUU9IkdFTkVSQVRPUiIgQ29udGVudD0iR3JvdXBI VE1MIFBsdWdpbiBmb3IgR3JvdXAgTWFpbCI+DQo8VElUTEU+PC9USVRMRT4NCjwvSEVBRD4N CjxCT0RZPjxGT05UIGNvbG9yPSMwMDAwMDAgZmFjZT1BcmlhbCBzaXplPTI+DQo8UD5TZWhy IGdlZWhydGUgRGFtZW4gdW5kIEhlcnJlbjwvUD4NCjxQPkhhYmVuIFNpZSBkaWUgTWl0YXJi ZWl0ZXJzY2h1bHVuZyBzY2hvbiBnZXBsYW50PyBXaXIgbfZjaHRlbiBJaG5lbiBlaW4gDQph dHRyYWt0aXZlcyBBbmdlYm90IHVudGVyYnJlaXRlbi48L1A+DQo8UD5CZXN1Y2hlbiBTaWUg dW5zZXJlIFdlYnNpdGVzIHVuZCBpbmZvcm1pZXJlbiBTaWUgc2ljaCD8YmVyIGRpZSBha3R1 ZWxsZW4gQXVzLSANCnVuZCBXZWl0ZXJiaWxkdW5nc2FuZ2Vib3RlIGb8ciBLTVWScyB1bmQg QWJ0ZWlsdW5nZW46PC9QPg0KPFVMPg0KICA8TEk+a2xhc3Npc2NoZSBWZXJrYXVmcy0gdW5k IE1hbmFnZW1lbnR0cmFpbmluZ3MgZmluZGVuIFNpZSBiZWkgPC9GT05UPjxBIA0KICBocmVm PSJodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm9yZWxsLmNoLyI+PEZPTlQgZmFjZT1BcmlhbCANCiAgc2l6ZT0yPnd3 dy5vcmVsbC5jaDwvRk9OVD48L0E+PC9MST48L1VMPg0KPERJUj48Rk9OVCBjb2xvcj0jMDAw MDAwIGZhY2U9QXJpYWwgc2l6ZT0yPg0KPFA+KGlua2wuIFRyYWluaW5ncyBm/HIgS29tbXVu aWthdGlvbiwgS3JlYXRpdml05HQsIFNwcmVjaGVuIHZvciBQdWJsaWt1bSANCmV0Yy4pPC9Q PjwvRElSPg0KPFVMPg0KICA8TEk+aW5kaXZpZHVlbGwgZ2VzdGFsdGV0ZSBBdXNiaWxkdW5n IGZpbmRlbiBTaWUgdW50ZXIgPC9GT05UPjxBIA0KICBocmVmPSJodHRwOi8vd3d3LmVkdWNh dGFpbm1lbnQuY2gvIj48Rk9OVCBmYWNlPUFyaWFsIA0KICBzaXplPTI+d3d3LmVkdWNhdGFp bm1lbnQuY2g8L0ZPTlQ+PC9BPjwvTEk+PC9VTD48Rk9OVCBjb2xvcj0jMDAwMDAwIGZhY2U9 QXJpYWwgDQpzaXplPTI+DQo8UD5XaXIgZnJldWVuIHVucyBhdWYgSWhyZSBLb250YWt0YXVm bmFobWUuPC9QPg0KPFA+T1JFTEw8QlI+VmVya2F1ZnMtIHVuZCBNYW5hZ2VtZW50c2VtaW5h cmU8L1A+DQo8UD44ODAyIEtpbGNoYmVyZzwvUD4NCjxQPjwvRk9OVD48Rk9OVCBmYWNlPUFy aWFsIHNpemU9MT4mbmJzcDs8L1A+DQo8UD5XaXIgbfZjaHRlbiBTaWUgbWl0IHVuc2VyZW0g QW5nZWJvdCBuaWNodCBiZWzkc3RpZ2VuLCBzb25kZXJuIGVpbmUgYXR0cmFrdGl2ZSANCkRp ZW5zdGxlaXR1bmcgYW5iaWV0ZW4uIFNvbGx0ZW4gd2lyIHRyb3R6ZGVtIElocmVuIFVubXV0 IGdld2Vja3QgaGFiZW4sIGJpdHRlbiANCndpciB1bSBFbnRzY2h1bGRpZ3VuZy4gRGFtaXQg d2lyIElocmUgQWRyZXNzZSBs9nNjaGVuIGv2bm5lbiwga2xpY2tlbiBTaWUgPEEgDQpocmVm PSJtYWlsdG86cmVtb3ZlQG9yZWxsLmNoP3N1YmplY3Q9UkVNT1ZFJmFtcDtib2R5PUJpdHRl IEFkcmVzc2Ugc3RyZWljaGVuIFtUZXh0IG5pY2h0IORuZGVybl0iPlJFTU9WRTwvQT48L1A+ PC9GT05UPg0KPC9CT0RZPg0KPC9IVE1MPg0K ------=_NextPart_000_001__7881475_69696-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 2 13: 3: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2143E37B502 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 13:02:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nomad.yogotech.com (nomad.yogotech.com [206.127.123.131]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA07745; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 14:00:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@nomad.yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by nomad.yogotech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA18288; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 14:00:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate) Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 14:00:17 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200010022000.OAA18288@nomad.yogotech.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "John Howie" Cc: "Poul-Henning Kamp" , "Brett Glass" , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: ftpd bug in FreeBSD through at least 3.4 In-Reply-To: <036301c02caa$ebc17300$fd01a8c0@pacbell.net> References: <21970.970515180@critter> <036301c02caa$ebc17300$fd01a8c0@pacbell.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ Moved to -chat ] > > >> >>3.4 is a dead branch, 2.x even more so. > > >> > > > >> >People are still running it 3.x, though. LOTS of people. > > >> > > >> Doesn't change the fact that it's a dead branch. > > > > > >Doesn't change the fact that "LOTS of people" are still running it... > > >Geez, what a curt, rude, throw-your-hands-up answer. > > > > > >Are you saying that if we found a terrible bug (not this easy one) > > >somewhere critical in 3.5.%d, we'd all have to immediatly upgrade? - Jy@ > > > > Yes, I am saying that. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > And this is why Linux, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, et al will NEVER beat a supported > pay-for-use Operating System like Windows in the eyes of real-world > business-critical system administrators and CIOs. Really? Explain to me how Win95/NT 'supports' it's easier with day-day bugfixes in a manner that's better than FreeBSD? Win98 has the 'critical update', but it's basically the same as FreeBSD's CVSup. Packaging is better, and it's easier to use, but with user support FreeBSD's update system could be as easy to use. However, back to the issue at hand. Microsoft doesn't support old OS's like Win95 and NT3.5/4.0. Heck, support for Win98 just ended with the release of WinME. There are *lots* of critical bugs in Win95, NT3.5, and NT 4.0 that exist today. Microsoft's response to the bugfixes is 'We don't support older versions of the OS. You must upgrade to a supported OS (WinME, Win2K), in order to get up to date support.) I won't even begin with Solaris. :) > Of course, all the egos, moaning, and bitching don't help either. Ain't that the truth. Listening to Steve Ballmer's or Scott McNeally's speeches are like that, though I've gotten used to it. :) :) :) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 2 13:41:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailout06.sul.t-online.com (mailout06.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 017EB37B502; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 13:41:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fmrl00.sul.t-online.de by mailout06.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 13gCP1-0005aF-00; Mon, 02 Oct 2000 22:41:35 +0200 Received: from neutron.cichlids.com (520050424122-0001@[62.225.193.20]) by fmrl00.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 13gCOv-0jhy2SC; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 22:41:29 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by neutron.cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C673AB91; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 22:42:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: by cichlids.cichlids.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id EEA8F14B23; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 22:41:15 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 22:41:15 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: Mark Ovens Cc: Warner Losh , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Reminder: There are 8 days left to vote.. Message-ID: <20001002224115.A632@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mail-Followup-To: Alexander Langer , Mark Ovens , Warner Losh , chat@freebsd.org References: <58440.970506613@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <200010021714.LAA12613@harmony.village.org> <20001002192156.A13673@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20001002182936.C252@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001002182936.C252@parish>; from marko@freebsd.org on Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 06:29:37PM +0100 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. X-Sender: 520050424122-0001@t-dialin.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Mark Ovens (marko@freebsd.org): > >From the welcome page: Oh, I'm obviously too stupid to read. Thanks :) Alex -- cat: /home/alex/.sig: No such file or directory To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 2 13:42:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from secure.smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu07.email.msn.com [207.46.181.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D64437B502 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 13:42:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x86nts4 - 216.103.48.12 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 13:40:09 -0700 Message-ID: <038b01c02cb2$1b5092c0$fd01a8c0@pacbell.net> From: "John Howie" To: "Poul-Henning Kamp" Cc: "James Wyatt" , "Brett Glass" , "Chris D . Faulhaber" , References: <23683.970516562@critter> Subject: Re: ftpd bug in FreeBSD through at least 3.4 Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 13:48:23 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" To: "John Howie" Cc: "James Wyatt" ; "Brett Glass" ; "Chris D . Faulhaber" ; Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 12:56 PM Subject: Re: ftpd bug in FreeBSD through at least 3.4 > In message <036301c02caa$ebc17300$fd01a8c0@pacbell.net>, "John Howie" writes: > > >> >Are you saying that if we found a terrible bug (not this easy one) > >> >somewhere critical in 3.5.%d, we'd all have to immediatly upgrade? - Jy@ > >> > >> Yes, I am saying that. > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > >And this is why Linux, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, et al will NEVER beat a supported > >pay-for-use Operating System like Windows in the eyes of real-world > >business-critical system administrators and CIOs. Of course, all the egos, > >moaning, and bitching don't help either. > > Until you do you're asking me to waste my spare time because you > cannot be bothered to upgrade your system to recent releases. And I guess that we can all be proud of the fantastic upgrade procedure as detailed in the Release Notes - basically copy /etc, install New OS, copy /etc back. Get real - it takes a long time to upgrade any OS, FreeBSD more so than some. It is not easy to install, configure, and administer and the problem is compounded by having to rebuild half of /usr/local in some circumstances. It is not a case of 'can't be bothered', it is a case of don't have time/resources/spare hardware. Maybe if we looked at supporting past releases we could win some fans in the business community. Until then we are mostly a bunch of hobbyists. I use FreeBSD, I love FreeBSD, I do upgrade FreeBSD, but I would NEVER recommend FreeBSD as a business solution. > > Feel free to estimate my enthusiasm for your problem. > Your lack of enthusiasm IS part of the problem - and I'll take my share of the blame too because you won't see me volunteering any time soon. Let's face it, we are probably both extremely busy people and in an ideal world everyone would upgrade to the latest version of every piece of software as soon as it came out - but that doesn't happen. Don't be surprised if FreeBSD doesn't take over the world because we don't support users running past releases. john... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 2 13:50:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from secure.smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu07.email.msn.com [207.46.181.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8AB737B503 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 13:50:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x86nts4 - 216.103.48.12 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 13:47:11 -0700 Message-ID: <039501c02cb3$16fcd390$fd01a8c0@pacbell.net> From: "John Howie" To: "Nate Williams" Cc: "Poul-Henning Kamp" , "Brett Glass" , References: <21970.970515180@critter><036301c02caa$ebc17300$fd01a8c0@pacbell.net> <200010022000.OAA18288@nomad.yogotech.com> Subject: Re: ftpd bug in FreeBSD through at least 3.4 Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 13:55:25 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nate Williams" To: "John Howie" Cc: "Poul-Henning Kamp" ; "Brett Glass" ; Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 1:00 PM Subject: Re: ftpd bug in FreeBSD through at least 3.4 > However, back to the issue at hand. Microsoft doesn't support old OS's > like Win95 and NT3.5/4.0. Heck, support for Win98 just ended with the > release of WinME. NT 4 and Windows 98 are still supported, Windows 95 was recently retired, but limited on-line support is still available. > There are *lots* of critical bugs in Win95, NT3.5, and NT 4.0 that exist > today. Microsoft's response to the bugfixes is 'We don't support older > versions of the OS. You must upgrade to a supported OS (WinME, Win2K), > in order to get up to date support.) Microsoft adopts a policy of supporting a product based on the percentage of users using it. They guarantee at least two revisions old will be supported. However, I believe there is a cut-off based on elapsed time to upgrade but I can't comment on that as I don't know the specifics. Like any organization they push users to upgrade (to get their dollars) but have the smarts to know that they need to support an existing customer base. john... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 2 13:59:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABC7F37B66C for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 13:59:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nomad.yogotech.com (nomad.yogotech.com [206.127.123.131]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA08710; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 14:56:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@nomad.yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by nomad.yogotech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA19000; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 14:56:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate) Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 14:56:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200010022056.OAA19000@nomad.yogotech.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "John Howie" Cc: "Nate Williams" , "Poul-Henning Kamp" , "Brett Glass" , Subject: Re: ftpd bug in FreeBSD through at least 3.4 In-Reply-To: <039501c02cb3$16fcd390$fd01a8c0@pacbell.net> References: <21970.970515180@critter> <036301c02caa$ebc17300$fd01a8c0@pacbell.net> <200010022000.OAA18288@nomad.yogotech.com> <039501c02cb3$16fcd390$fd01a8c0@pacbell.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > From: "Nate Williams" > To: "John Howie" > Cc: "Poul-Henning Kamp" ; "Brett Glass" > ; > Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 1:00 PM > Subject: Re: ftpd bug in FreeBSD through at least 3.4 > > > > > However, back to the issue at hand. Microsoft doesn't support old OS's > > like Win95 and NT3.5/4.0. Heck, support for Win98 just ended with the > > release of WinME. > > NT 4 and Windows 98 are still supported, Windows 95 was recently retired, > but limited on-line support is still available. The response is often 'upgrade to Win98'. I'm not going to pay $150 for them to tell me that again. PHK just gave you the same 'support' that Microsoft would give you in a support call for free. (Seriously). > > There are *lots* of critical bugs in Win95, NT3.5, and NT 4.0 that exist > > today. Microsoft's response to the bugfixes is 'We don't support older > > versions of the OS. You must upgrade to a supported OS (WinME, Win2K), > > in order to get up to date support.) > > Microsoft adopts a policy of supporting a product based on the percentage of > users using it. This is simply not true. Microsoft drops a product as soon as possible. Trying to get support for older versions of software is nearly impossible, unless you have a boatload of cash. However, that same option exists for you. FreeBSD has a number of developers who will jump through all kinds of hoops for you, for a *LOT* less money than Microsoft charges for support. > They guarantee at least two revisions old will be supported. This is simply not true, at least in my experience. They have told me and my users too often that upgrading is the only 'viable' alternative, short of spending mega-bucks that no company has the ability to spend. (Especially with their obnoxious licensing/upgrade policy...) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 2 14:50:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80E0737B66D for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 14:50:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA19194; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 14:47:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAHea4OJ; Mon Oct 2 14:45:40 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA11591; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 14:48:27 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200010022148.OAA11591@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: ftpd bug in FreeBSD through at least 3.4 To: nate@yogotech.com Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 21:48:26 +0000 (GMT) Cc: JHowie@msn.com (John Howie), phk@critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp), brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200010022000.OAA18288@nomad.yogotech.com> from "Nate Williams" at Oct 02, 2000 02:00:17 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > [ Moved to -chat ] > Really? Explain to me how Win95/NT 'supports' it's easier with day-day > bugfixes in a manner that's better than FreeBSD? I wish my Vaio's winmodem worked on FreeBSD. Same for the sound card, and don't get me started on DVD playback support. > However, back to the issue at hand. Microsoft doesn't support old OS's > like Win95 and NT3.5/4.0. Heck, support for Win98 just ended with the > release of WinME. If you buy a new machine with an old OS, it's supported by Microsoft for 90 days from date of purchse, so long as the vendor has a contract with Microsoft. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 2 14:59:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B836B37B502 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 14:59:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nomad.yogotech.com (nomad.yogotech.com [206.127.123.131]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA09832; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 15:59:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@nomad.yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by nomad.yogotech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA19384; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 15:59:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate) Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 15:59:37 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200010022159.PAA19384@nomad.yogotech.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@yogotech.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ftpd bug in FreeBSD through at least 3.4 In-Reply-To: <200010022148.OAA11591@usr05.primenet.com> References: <200010022000.OAA18288@nomad.yogotech.com> <200010022148.OAA11591@usr05.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > > [ Moved to -chat ] > > Really? Explain to me how Win95/NT 'supports' it's easier with day-day > > bugfixes in a manner that's better than FreeBSD? [ snip ] > don't get me started on DVD playback support. Hey, take that one up with the court system. :) > > However, back to the issue at hand. Microsoft doesn't support old OS's > > like Win95 and NT3.5/4.0. Heck, support for Win98 just ended with the > > release of WinME. > > If you buy a new machine with an old OS, it's supported by > Microsoft for 90 days from date of purchse, so long as the > vendor has a contract with Microsoft. Hence the reason that M$ forces vendors to switch OS's the *day* the new OS is released. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 2 15:45:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from relay2.inwind.it (relay2.inwind.it [212.141.53.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EA4E37B6BE for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 15:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bartequi.ottodomain.org (62.98.153.160) by relay2.inwind.it (5.1.046) id 39CB0979001A917A; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 00:38:02 +0200 From: Salvo Bartolotta Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 23:38:48 GMT Message-ID: <20001002.23384800@bartequi.ottodomain.org> Subject: Re: ftpd bug in FreeBSD through at least 3.4 To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: "James Wyatt" , "Poul-Henning Kamp" , "Brett Glass" , "Chris D . Faulhaber" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <60749.970522334@winston.osd.bsdi.com> References: <60749.970522334@winston.osd.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: SuperCalifragilis X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> redirected to -chat <=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< On 10/2/00, 10:32:14 PM, Jordan Hubbard wrote= =20 regarding Re: ftpd bug in FreeBSD through at least 3.4 : > > And this is why Linux, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, et al will NEVER beat a=20 supported > > pay-for-use Operating System like Windows in the eyes of real-world > > business-critical system administrators and CIOs. Of course, all the= =20 egos, > > moaning, and bitching don't help either. > If you want to buy a support contract for older version of FreeBSD, > please contact BSDi at 1-800-800-4BSD (or +1 719 457 8400 outside the > USA) or, if you prefer, any of the other companies offering commercial= > support for *BSD which are listed in the gallery. > Expecting unpaid volunteers to perform the same function as the > pay-for-use operating system vendors would be so unrealistic as to > border on idiocy and so I can only give you the benefit of the doubt > in assuming you must have been talking about something else. > - Jordan Dear Jordan Hubbard, I am sorry to inform you that I disagree: 1) I do NOT think that M$ support, albeit paid 195$/h or so, is as=20 effective as your statements would seem to imply; 2) I do NOT think that Windows (NT4 or NT5, ahem, Windows2000)=20 administrators have a knowledge of OSes, networking, etc., comparable=20 to UNIX administrators; 3) I do NOT think that UNIX experts/specialists can ever be considered=20 on the same footing as the so-called Windows (aka point-and-click)=20 experts; While I understand your overall attidude, I do NOT accept the=20 implications sub 1), 2), 3). Best regards, Salvo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 2 23:36:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kirk.giovannelli.it (kirk.giovannelli.it [194.184.65.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 818DC37B502 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 23:36:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from suzy.masternet.it (modem16.masternet.it [194.184.65.76]) by kirk.giovannelli.it (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e936V1s31352 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 08:31:03 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from gmarco@giovannelli.it) Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.0.20001003082444.018495c0@194.184.65.4> X-Sender: gmarco@194.184.65.4 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 08:38:46 +0200 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: Ghost like programs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'd like to know if we (FreeBSD users and fans) have a "ghost-like" program that can dump entire slice in a single file in a smart way. I usually use Matt Dillon's cpdup for dumping existing filesystem, but to do it I have to prepare a disk, newfs it, mount it and so on... Norton Ghost (which I found in a mainboard as a free addon :-) can do it but it doesn't know anything about FreeBSD slice so the raw image it create is usually very big. Trying to dump an almost empty fs of about 550mb in a partition of 15gb make me an image of many gigabyte so it is unusefull, i.e. for putting on a cdr... I found a program that seems to work in this way for linux, but it seems not too much suitable for us. The link is: http://partimage.sourceforge.net/ Any ideas ? Solutions ? Tips ? Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco http://www2.masternet.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 3 1:20:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66B6F37B502 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 01:20:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newsguy.com (p02-dn03kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.232.224.131]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN/) with ESMTP id RAA06171; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 17:20:35 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <39D98866.7D843AFC@newsguy.com> Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 16:19:02 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Mario Sergio Fujikawa Ferreira , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Not so quick self-introduction :) References: <20001002012009.A41414@Fedaykin.here> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > "Mario Sergio Fujikawa Ferreira" writes: > > I am a fresh ports committer being sponsored by Will Andrews (will). > > Hi, Mom. > > Your mother reads -committers? Wow. It's actually a long-standing trademark joke of a brazilian comics character. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org capo@linux.bsdconspiracy.net the ants all left because mtn. dew is sold out again To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 3 1:42:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDE6B37B66E for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 01:42:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA92497; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 10:42:40 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Gianmarco Giovannelli Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ghost like programs References: <5.0.0.25.0.20001003082444.018495c0@194.184.65.4> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 03 Oct 2000 10:42:40 +0200 In-Reply-To: Gianmarco Giovannelli's message of "Tue, 03 Oct 2000 08:38:46 +0200" Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gianmarco Giovannelli writes: > Trying to dump an almost empty fs of about 550mb in a partition of 15gb > make me an image of many gigabyte so it is unusefull, i.e. for putting on a > cdr... # dd if=/dev/da0a | gzip -c >diskimage.gz DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 3 6:59:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA98037B66C for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 06:59:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dkelly@localhost) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e93DxUP02837; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 08:59:30 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 08:59:30 -0500 (CDT) From: David Kelly Message-Id: <200010031359.e93DxUP02837@mail.hiwaay.net> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, gmarco@giovannelli.it Subject: Re: Ghost like programs Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gianmarco Giovannelli writes: > > I'd like to know if we (FreeBSD users and fans) have a "ghost-like" program > that can dump entire slice in a single file in a smart way. I think you are trying too hard. What are you trying to do that dump 0af /scratch/filesystem.dump /filesystem doesn't do? (/scratch/ is some place you have room for an image of /filesystem/) Then if you want to get fancy you can pipe dump into gzip. If /scratch/ has at least twice the size of /filesystem/ then you can gzip after the fact. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net (hm) ====================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 3 10:25:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from 200-227-201-50-as.acessonet.com.br (200-227-201-50-as.acessonet.com.br [200.227.201.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30F0537B503 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 10:25:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 1136 invoked by uid 1001); 3 Oct 2000 16:21:20 -0000 From: "Mario Sergio Fujikawa Ferreira" Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 14:20:58 -0200 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Mario Sergio Fujikawa Ferreira , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, dcs@newsguy.com Subject: Re: Not so quick self-introduction :) Message-ID: <20001003142058.C957@Fedaykin.here> References: <20001002012009.A41414@Fedaykin.here> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 01:28:57PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 01:28:57PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > "Mario Sergio Fujikawa Ferreira" writes: > > I am a fresh ports committer being sponsored by Will Andrews (will). > > Hi, Mom. > > Your mother reads -committers? Wow. Mom, He does not believe you read it. As I am a probating committer as guess my sponsor represents the mother figure for the time being. "What is that?" "How do I do that? Is this the right way?" In many ways, it is like a fother (s/m/f/), gives the helping hand but punishes as necessary. Isn't that right mom? And as pointed out by the fellow Brazilian, it is sort of a inside joke. An idiomatic expression, though it also applies for english. What some ppl say when they get the change of appearing on TV? :) In Tue, Oct 03, 2000 at 04:18:40PM +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > > It's actually a long-standing trademark joke of a brazilian comics > character. > -- Mario S. F. Ferreira - UnB - Brazil - "I guess this is a signature." lioux at ( freebsd dot org | linf dot unb dot br ) flames to beloved devnull@someotherworldbeloworabove.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 3 12: 3:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E78637B66D for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 12:03:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20750; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 13:01:54 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001003123112.04c6ee80@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 13:01:50 -0600 To: Poul-Henning Kamp From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: politeness Cc: Wes Peters , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <49242.970591720@critter> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Moved to -chat. At 10:48 AM 10/3/2000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >In your particular case: If you want to avoid being banned and >filtered: Yes, it means that. To demand that someone with whom you do not agree be silenced is a sign of poor leadership qualities and suggests that you should not be in a leadership position. Furthermore, what you are suggesting would set a terrible precedent. I have never suggested that ANYONE be banned from a list such as the FreeBSD -security or -chat lists, and never would. >In all my time in core, nobody even closely rivals your uncontested >number one ranking as the person most people want banned & filtered >from our lists. This seems to be your personal opinion, which you are attempting to project onto others. Most of the other core team members with whom I communicate are cordial. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 3 12:16:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (flutter.freebsd.dk [212.242.40.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB22437B681 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 12:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id e93JFsN50958; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 21:15:54 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Brett Glass Cc: Wes Peters , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: politeness In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 03 Oct 2000 13:01:50 MDT." <4.3.2.7.2.20001003123112.04c6ee80@localhost> Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 21:15:54 +0200 Message-ID: <50956.970600554@critter> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <4.3.2.7.2.20001003123112.04c6ee80@localhost>, Brett Glass writes: >Moved to -chat. > >At 10:48 AM 10/3/2000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > >>In your particular case: If you want to avoid being banned and >>filtered: Yes, it means that. > >To demand that someone with whom you do not agree be silenced is >a sign of poor leadership qualities and suggests that you should >not be in a leadership position. *I* don't demand that you be silenced, I just ignore twits like you. Let me try to explain this very slowly again: An ever increasing number of people *do* ask for you to be banned and/or filtered. At some point they reach critical mass, then my position, will change from: "Can't you guys just ignore him ?" to: "OK, we can't have Brett destroying the fabric of the project". Or to put it another way: 1. You, Brett, are pissing people off. 2. Pissed off people demand you be banned/filtered. 3. When enough pissed off people demand that, it will happen. Or yet another way: Unless you change your style radically, at some point in the not too distant future you will have collected sufficient box-tops to be run off the project in tar & feathers. Now, there, I have tried to cut this fact out in various pieces of cardboard, plywood and other available pædagogical media, I can't say it more clearly, if you don't understand it now, it's not my fault. If you finally figured out what is being said here, I would expect it to be enough to start introspective thought processes in you, (but so far I se absolutely no signs of such activity). -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD coreteam member | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 3 12:40:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3651D37B502 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 12:40:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA21297; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 13:37:42 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001003132247.043d11e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 13:37:30 -0600 To: Poul-Henning Kamp From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: politeness Cc: Wes Peters , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <50956.970600554@critter> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:15 PM 10/3/2000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >*I* don't demand that you be silenced, I just ignore twits like you. If you absolutely can't bear to read what I have to say, perhaps it would be better if you were true to your word and actually did ignore me. However, I would hope that you would have enough of a stomach to be able to read the occasional opinion which is different from yours. >Let me try to explain this very slowly again: > >An ever increasing number of people *do* ask for you to be banned >and/or filtered. Other than one flamer, you are the only one who is asking. Worse still, you are going further and making threats. As I have already said, this is inappropriate behavior for someone who claims to be worthy of a leadership position. >At some point they reach critical mass, then my position, will >change from: > "Can't you guys just ignore him ?" >to: > "OK, we can't have Brett destroying the fabric of the project". Eeek! Horrors! By posting two or three messages you don't like, I am surely "destroying the fabric of the project!" Run for the hills! Install the censorware! Get the iodine! Get the disinfectant! ;-) Clearly you must think that fabric to be much weaker than most of us do. So weak that it can tolerate neither spirited discussion nor varying points of view. What's more, your irritation at me appears to have arisen from a discussion which branched off as a TANGENT from one message I wrote. In short, you're attempting to use me as a scapegoat. >If you finally figured out what is being said here, I would expect >it to be enough to start introspective thought processes in you, >(but so far I se absolutely no signs of such activity). My messages on the FreeBSD lists are motivated by a desire to advance the project and promote the use of its software. If I make a technical mistake (and who doesn't?), I admit it and do not claim to be infallible or omniscient. Your messages, at least lately, appear to be motivated by spite and personal venom. Perhaps YOU are the one should engage in introspection, as you are not leaving folks with a good impression of yourself at all. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 3 13: 0: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (flutter.freebsd.dk [212.242.40.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6FE637B503 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 12:59:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id e93JxhN51266; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 21:59:43 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Brett Glass Cc: Wes Peters , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: politeness In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 03 Oct 2000 13:37:30 MDT." <4.3.2.7.2.20001003132247.043d11e0@localhost> Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 21:59:43 +0200 Message-ID: <51264.970603183@critter> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <4.3.2.7.2.20001003132247.043d11e0@localhost>, Brett Glass writes: This is my last attempt: You *still* make the mistake of thinking this is about what I think about you: it isn't. It is about how many people call for you to be banned/filtered. >Other than one flamer, you are the only one who is asking. I have seen 5 calls for it in a forum where you are not present (nor welcome) in the last 10 minutes. I have at least seen 3 calls in my mailbox. Hint: You may not be Cc:'ed on these emails. My role, as a core member, is to decide how many people have to ask before it is enough to override your "civil rights". In days long past we have thrown out core members because they were tearing the project apart. You're not even a committer, so it will take a lot less in your case. The only reason I replied in the first place was to indicate that you are approaching the line (at least for my core vote). Try this for a month, and feel the difference: 1. When you are about to press "send" on an email which will start a new thread. A) write down what time & date it is. B) save the email. C) For the next 48 hours, research the topic scientfically, revise the email as needed. D) after 48 hours, if the topic is still relevant: send the email. 2. When you are about to reply to an email: A) write down what time & date it is. B) save the email. C) For the next 4 hours, research the topic scientfically, revise the email as needed. D) after 4 hours, if your comment is still relevant: send the email. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD coreteam member | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 3 13:35:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95B0237B503 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 13:35:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA22007; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 14:33:23 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001003142545.043d84a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 14:33:19 -0600 To: Poul-Henning Kamp From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: politeness Cc: Wes Peters , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <51264.970603183@critter> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Poul-Henning: You and anyone else who would seek to censor discussion on public mailing lists -- where people do say that they find my participation to be valuable -- are being extremely unprofessional. Even more so if the conversations which you allege (without proof!) to be taking place are going on behind my back. There doesn't seem to be much point in continuing this thread. Neither I nor any other participant needs to be condescendingly "tutored" on how and when to post a message to a mailing list. Nor should there be censorship of any kind. That's all I have to say on this issue. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 3 13:37:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (flutter.freebsd.dk [212.242.40.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C993437B502 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 13:37:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id e93KbEN51608; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 22:37:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Brett Glass Cc: Wes Peters , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: politeness In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 03 Oct 2000 14:33:19 MDT." <4.3.2.7.2.20001003142545.043d84a0@localhost> Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 22:37:14 +0200 Message-ID: <51606.970605434@critter> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <4.3.2.7.2.20001003142545.043d84a0@localhost>, Brett Glass writes: >There doesn't seem to be much point in continuing this thread. I fully agree, so lets stop it now. >Neither I nor any other participant needs to be condescendingly >"tutored" on how and when to post a message to a mailing list. >Nor should there be censorship of any kind. That's all I have >to say on this issue. If we need to censor specific persons to prevent our developers from abandoning the project, we will do so. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD coreteam member | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 3 16:33:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72B7337B503; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 16:33:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) id QAA57458; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 16:33:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 16:33:47 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: John Howie Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , James Wyatt , Brett Glass , "Chris D . Faulhaber" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ftpd bug in FreeBSD through at least 3.4 Message-ID: <20001003163347.A56064@freefall.freebsd.org> References: <23683.970516562@critter> <038b01c02cb2$1b5092c0$fd01a8c0@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <038b01c02cb2$1b5092c0$fd01a8c0@pacbell.net>; from JHowie@msn.com on Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 01:48:23PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 01:48:23PM -0700, John Howie wrote: > don't have time/resources/spare hardware. Maybe if we looked at supporting > past releases we could win some fans in the business community. Until then > we are mostly a bunch of hobbyists. I use FreeBSD, I love FreeBSD, I do > upgrade FreeBSD, but I would NEVER recommend FreeBSD as a business solution. Who is this "we" you speak of? Ohh, wait, you meant to say "Maybe if YOU looked at supporting..." No worries, I was wondering what to do with all my time anyway. Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 3 16:35:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A88037B66D; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 16:35:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) id QAA58193; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 16:35:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 16:35:53 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: John Howie Cc: Nate Williams , Poul-Henning Kamp , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: ftpd bug in FreeBSD through at least 3.4 Message-ID: <20001003163553.B56064@freefall.freebsd.org> References: <21970.970515180@critter><036301c02caa$ebc17300$fd01a8c0@pacbell.net> <200010022000.OAA18288@nomad.yogotech.com> <039501c02cb3$16fcd390$fd01a8c0@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <039501c02cb3$16fcd390$fd01a8c0@pacbell.net>; from JHowie@msn.com on Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 01:55:25PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 01:55:25PM -0700, John Howie wrote: > Microsoft adopts a policy of supporting a product based on the percentage of > users using it. They guarantee at least two revisions old will be supported. Funny, I thought FreeBSD also guaranteed at least two revisions old will be supported (for security fixes). Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 3 18:24: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A53137B502 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 18:23:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) id e941KLq07733; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:50:21 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:50:21 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Wes Peters , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: politeness Message-ID: <20001004105021.G7292@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <50956.970600554@critter> <4.3.2.7.2.20001003132247.043d11e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001003132247.043d11e0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, Oct 03, 2000 at 01:37:30PM -0600 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 3 October 2000 at 13:37:30 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 01:15 PM 10/3/2000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > >> *I* don't demand that you be silenced, I just ignore twits like you. > > If you absolutely can't bear to read what I have to say, perhaps it > would be better if you were true to your word and actually did > ignore me. However, I would hope that you would have enough of a > stomach to be able to read the occasional opinion which is different > from yours. Brett, I think you're missing the point. Like many people, Poul-Henning and I tend to delete your messages unread. When people start complaining, we take an occasional look, like I have done now. This doesn't mean that we don't have strong stomachs, nor that we can't put up with other people's opinions. In fact, Poul-Henning and I disagree on a number of topics, but that doesn't stop us from talking to each other. It also doesn't stop me from talking to you when there's something useful to say. The real reason we tend to ignore your mail is that we have only ever heard one opinion from you, and the repetitions are getting boring. >> Let me try to explain this very slowly again: >> >> An ever increasing number of people *do* ask for you to be banned >> and/or filtered. > > Other than one flamer, you are the only one who is asking. No, that's not correct. I've heard this from a number of people (> 5, anyway). > Worse still, you are going further and making threats. As I have > already said, this is inappropriate behavior for someone who claims > to be worthy of a leadership position. I've accused Poul-Henning of being heavy-handed in the past. I can't see him doing so here. >> If you finally figured out what is being said here, I would expect >> it to be enough to start introspective thought processes in you, >> (but so far I se absolutely no signs of such activity). > > My messages on the FreeBSD lists are motivated by a desire to advance > the project and promote the use of its software. If I make a > technical mistake (and who doesn't?), I admit it and do not claim > to be infallible or omniscient. To be fair, I haven't seen many retractions on your part. I'm not going to be drawn into yet another fruitless discussion on the part you play in the FreeBSD project. I do get the impression that a number of people equate you to a kind of bogey man, and whether this is justified or not, it would be wrong to ignore the problem. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 3 21: 0:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A080337B66C for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 21:00:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA26321; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 21:58:20 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001003195415.044551d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 21:57:49 -0600 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: politeness Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Wes Peters , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20001004105021.G7292@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001003132247.043d11e0@localhost> <50956.970600554@critter> <4.3.2.7.2.20001003132247.043d11e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:20 PM 10/3/2000, Greg Lehey wrote: >Brett, I think you're missing the point. Like many people, >Poul-Henning and I tend to delete your messages unread. That's a shame, though it is of course your choice. [Snip] >The real reason we tend to >ignore your mail is that we have only ever heard one opinion from you, >and the repetitions are getting boring. Greg, I don't think you are being fair or reasonable here. If you have formed the opinion that I have only "one opinion," it must be because you have very incomplete information. Perhaps the paragraph at the top of this message explains why you labor under this misconception. If you are deleting most of what I write without reading it, how could you possibly know what opinions I might have expressed? [Snip] >I've accused Poul-Henning of being heavy-handed in the past. I can't >see him doing so here. He and DES are both extremely heavy-handed -- unreasonably so, especially since I'm doing many things which they in fact would advocate. [Snip] >To be fair, I haven't seen many retractions on your part. How can you tell? Again, you say yourself that you have been deleting most of my messages unread! >I'm not going to be drawn into yet another fruitless discussion on the >part you play in the FreeBSD project. I do get the impression that a >number of people equate you to a kind of bogey man, and whether this >is justified or not, it would be wrong to ignore the problem. If people equate someone who is active, enthusiastic, and interested in promoting BSD to "a kind of bogey man," what can I say? They're wrong. A daemon, maybe, but certainly not a bogeyman. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 4 6:49: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40A8637B502 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 06:49:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id A1E167570; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 06:52:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F5621D8E for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 06:52:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 06:52:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: politeness In-Reply-To: <51606.970605434@critter> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 3 Oct 2000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: :If we need to censor specific persons to prevent our developers :from abandoning the project, we will do so. I'm curious, since when does phk == jmb? As for you, of all people, trying to tell someone else they are guilty of hubris and/or being an asshole, Mr. Kettle, I suggest you get over yourself. You've pissed off a fair share of people in the past through your tunnel vision and inability to play well with others too. If I were feeling particularly nasty, I'd compare you to Theo. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 4 8:59:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from secure.smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu07.email.msn.com [207.46.181.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BCE837B503; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 08:59:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x86nts4 - 216.103.48.12 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 08:57:15 -0700 Message-ID: <051201c02e1c$f57a2a40$fd01a8c0@pacbell.net> From: "John Howie" To: "Kris Kennaway" Cc: "Poul-Henning Kamp" , "James Wyatt" , "Brett Glass" , "Chris D . Faulhaber" , References: <23683.970516562@critter> <038b01c02cb2$1b5092c0$fd01a8c0@pacbell.net> <20001003163347.A56064@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: ftpd bug in FreeBSD through at least 3.4 Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 09:05:44 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris, Your response is so indicative of the many reasons why so many people do not volunteer to help out on FreeBSD or any other open-source project. The 'we' I refer to is the community, of course. However, in FreeBSD the community seems to be who a few self-designated despots say who its members are, all others are considered free-loaders and trouble makers. I have never, in all my years of UNIX experience, seen such in-fighting and bickering as I have on these lists. Please, do me and everyone else a favor, and don't reply unless you have something useful or constructive to say. I think I'll just sit back and become a freeloader. john... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kris Kennaway" To: "John Howie" Cc: "Poul-Henning Kamp" ; "James Wyatt" ; "Brett Glass" ; "Chris D . Faulhaber" ; Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 4:33 PM Subject: Re: ftpd bug in FreeBSD through at least 3.4 > On Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 01:48:23PM -0700, John Howie wrote: > > > don't have time/resources/spare hardware. Maybe if we looked at supporting > > past releases we could win some fans in the business community. Until then > > we are mostly a bunch of hobbyists. I use FreeBSD, I love FreeBSD, I do > > upgrade FreeBSD, but I would NEVER recommend FreeBSD as a business solution. > > Who is this "we" you speak of? Ohh, wait, you meant to say "Maybe if > YOU looked at supporting..." No worries, I was wondering what to do > with all my time anyway. > > > > Kris > > -- > In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. > -- Charles Forsythe > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 4 9:44:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E2B737B66C for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 09:44:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 2A4855730C; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 11:45:06 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 11:45:06 -0500 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@yogotech.com, John Howie , Poul-Henning Kamp , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ftpd bug in FreeBSD through at least 3.4 Message-ID: <20001004114506.A24813@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" References: <200010022000.OAA18288@nomad.yogotech.com> <200010022148.OAA11591@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200010022148.OAA11591@usr05.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 09:48:26PM +0000 X-FreeBSD-Header: This is a subliminal message from the vast FreeBSD conspiracy project. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD peorth.iteration.net 4.1.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 4.1.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 09:48:26PM +0000, Terry Lambert scribbled: | > [ Moved to -chat ] | > Really? Explain to me how Win95/NT 'supports' it's easier with day-day | > bugfixes in a manner that's better than FreeBSD? | I wish my Vaio's winmodem worked on FreeBSD. Same for the | sound card, and don't get me started on DVD playback support. Winmodem can't be helped. But sound and DVD both work on my VAIO z505js Sound was done by "device pcm," and DVD just "worked." Many people have had trouble installing drivers in WinXX. In fact, on my desktop system, FreeBSD supports a couple pieces of *new* hardware that Win2K cannot use. Lucent seems to have released a winmodem driver for linux. | > However, back to the issue at hand. Microsoft doesn't support old OS's | > like Win95 and NT3.5/4.0. Heck, support for Win98 just ended with the | > release of WinME. | | If you buy a new machine with an old OS, it's supported by | Microsoft for 90 days from date of purchse, so long as the | vendor has a contract with Microsoft. If you buy a new machine from Telenet with FreeBSD or BSD/OS, I think it would be supported... But, are you buying FreeBSD when you do an FTP install? -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 4 10: 4:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9223537B503 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:04:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA02739; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 11:01:42 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001004105835.05042c10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 11:01:36 -0600 To: "Michael C . Wu" , Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Buying vs. "Buying in" Cc: nate@yogotech.com, John Howie , Poul-Henning Kamp , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20001004114506.A24813@peorth.iteration.net> References: <200010022148.OAA11591@usr05.primenet.com> <200010022000.OAA18288@nomad.yogotech.com> <200010022148.OAA11591@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >If you buy a new machine from Telenet with FreeBSD or BSD/OS, >I think it would be supported... >But, are you buying FreeBSD when you do an FTP install? No; if you do the latter, it's more like buying INto something than buying a product. This is true of all cooperatively developed and maintained software. The sense of community is vital to the whole thing. This is why territoriality in such situations is so ungood. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 4 10: 7:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59BBA37B503 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:07:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 682305730C; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 12:07:22 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 12:07:22 -0500 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: John Howie Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ftpd bug in FreeBSD through at least 3.4 Message-ID: <20001004120722.B24813@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" References: <23683.970516562@critter> <038b01c02cb2$1b5092c0$fd01a8c0@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <038b01c02cb2$1b5092c0$fd01a8c0@pacbell.net>; from JHowie@msn.com on Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 01:48:23PM -0700 X-FreeBSD-Header: This is a subliminal message from the vast FreeBSD conspiracy project. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD peorth.iteration.net 4.1.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 4.1.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 01:48:23PM -0700, John Howie scribbled: [useless Outlook style reply header deleted] | > In message <036301c02caa$ebc17300$fd01a8c0@pacbell.net>, "John Howie" writes: | > >> >Are you saying that if we found a terrible bug (not this easy one) | > >> >somewhere critical in 3.5.%d, we'd all have to immediatly upgrade? - | > >> Yes, I am saying that. | > >And this is why Linux, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, et al will NEVER beat a supported | > >pay-for-use Operating System like Windows in the eyes of real-world | > >business-critical system administrators and CIOs. Of course, all the egos, | > >moaning, and bitching don't help either. | > Until you do you're asking me to waste my spare time because you | > cannot be bothered to upgrade your system to recent releases. | And I guess that we can all be proud of the fantastic upgrade procedure as | detailed in the Release Notes - basically copy /etc, install New OS, copy | /etc back. Get real - it takes a long time to upgrade any OS, FreeBSD more | so than some. It is not easy to install, configure, and administer and the This is a good procedure, and here is how it works: #!/bin/sh cvsup /usr/share/examples/cvsup/stable-supfile -h cvsup#.freebsd.org cd /usr/src make -j3 buildworld && \ #Stop the process if one of the following fails. make buildkernel kernel=GENERIC && \ make installkernel kernel=GENERIC && \ make buildkernel kernel=INEEDTOREADDOCUMENTATIONS && \ make installkernel kernel=INEEDTOREADDOCUMENTATIONS && \ make installworld && \ mergemaster echo "I can reboot now." Or, you could just do a binary upgrade and back up your /etc, then use mergemaster. | problem is compounded by having to rebuild half of /usr/local in some | circumstances. It is not a case of 'can't be bothered', it is a case of | don't have time/resources/spare hardware. Maybe if we looked at supporting I have binaries on my home box in Taiwan that date from 2.2.8 days. The box still runs well and is a router for my parents' home network. | past releases we could win some fans in the business community. Until then | we are mostly a bunch of hobbyists. I use FreeBSD, I love FreeBSD, I do | upgrade FreeBSD, but I would NEVER recommend FreeBSD as a business solution. This is a question-> "Why are you using FreeBSD then, if it is so bad?" | > Feel free to estimate my enthusiasm for your problem. | Your lack of enthusiasm IS part of the problem - and I'll take my share of | the blame too because you won't see me volunteering any time soon. Let's | face it, we are probably both extremely busy people and in an ideal world Let's face it, the FreeBSD developers are probably stupid extremely busy people who have real lives and work on FreeBSD for no real gain. For the ones being paid to work on FreeBSD, they are probably taking salaries that are 25%-40% lower than industry norm for their skills. Boy, are these people so stupid to do something like that? Can it be that they are trying to contribute and give up their free time so the users (e.g. you) can have a decent OS to run your extremely busy life/business, so busy that you cannot upgrade to the latest version. | everyone would upgrade to the latest version of every piece of software as | soon as it came out - but that doesn't happen. Don't be surprised if FreeBSD | doesn't take over the world because we don't support users running past | releases. To sink myself to a certain level to answer the above, I cannot imagine a world run by FreeBSD, or a world where clueful people complain that FreeBSD-* mailing lists do not help them when they report REAL bugs. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 4 10:17: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D4AA37B503 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 6C35F5730C; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 12:17:10 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 12:17:10 -0500 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Buying vs. "Buying in" Message-ID: <20001004121710.C24813@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" References: <200010022148.OAA11591@usr05.primenet.com> <200010022000.OAA18288@nomad.yogotech.com> <200010022148.OAA11591@usr05.primenet.com> <20001004114506.A24813@peorth.iteration.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20001004105835.05042c10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001004105835.05042c10@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 11:01:36AM -0600 X-FreeBSD-Header: This is a subliminal message from the vast FreeBSD conspiracy project. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD peorth.iteration.net 4.1.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 4.1.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 11:01:36AM -0600, Brett Glass scribbled: | >If you buy a new machine from Telenet with FreeBSD or BSD/OS, | >I think it would be supported... | >But, are you buying FreeBSD when you do an FTP install? The above is sarcasm. It is not a real question. | No; if you do the latter, it's more like buying INto something Please do not reinterpret something that does not need to reinterpreted. For example, there is no act of "buying" when you do an FTP install, whether it be "buying or buying into." It is a conscious choice when you accept the BSDL. THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE REGENTS AND CONTRIBUTORS ``AS IS'' AND ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE REGENTS OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE. | than buying a product. This is true of all cooperatively | developed and maintained software. The sense of community is | vital to the whole thing. This is why territoriality in such | situations is so ungood. Territoriality in Bill Joy gave BSD its TCP/IP stack. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 4 10:58:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FF0837B503 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:58:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA03449; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 11:58:47 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001004115533.04b6f350@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 11:58:36 -0600 To: "Michael C . Wu" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Buying vs. "Buying in" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20001004121710.C24813@peorth.iteration.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001004105835.05042c10@localhost> <200010022148.OAA11591@usr05.primenet.com> <200010022000.OAA18288@nomad.yogotech.com> <200010022148.OAA11591@usr05.primenet.com> <20001004114506.A24813@peorth.iteration.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20001004105835.05042c10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:17 AM 10/4/2000, Michael C . Wu wrote: >Please do not reinterpret something that does not need to reinterpreted. >For example, there is no act of "buying" when you do an FTP install, >whether it be "buying or buying into." It is a conscious choice >when you accept the BSDL. The BSD license is important, in that it does not discriminate against developers or attempt to take something from you (as the GPL does). However, the notion of "buy-in" is vitally important. It's what turns something like FreeBSD from a hobbyists' playground to something significant, important, and vital. Even users who don't contribute code are lending support to the platform by becoming involved. >Territoriality in Bill Joy gave BSD its TCP/IP stack. Actually, DARPA gave BSD its TCP/IP stack. Bill was merely one of the people who were funded to do it. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 4 12:15:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B60F737B66D; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 12:15:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) id MAA75533; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 12:15:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 12:15:23 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: John Howie Cc: Kris Kennaway , Poul-Henning Kamp , James Wyatt , Brett Glass , "Chris D . Faulhaber" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ftpd bug in FreeBSD through at least 3.4 Message-ID: <20001004121523.B73561@freefall.freebsd.org> References: <23683.970516562@critter> <038b01c02cb2$1b5092c0$fd01a8c0@pacbell.net> <20001003163347.A56064@freefall.freebsd.org> <051201c02e1c$f57a2a40$fd01a8c0@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <051201c02e1c$f57a2a40$fd01a8c0@pacbell.net>; from JHowie@msn.com on Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 09:05:44AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 09:05:44AM -0700, John Howie wrote: > Your response is so indicative of the many reasons why so many people do not > volunteer to help out on FreeBSD or any other open-source project. The 'we' > I refer to is the community, of course. However, in FreeBSD the community > seems to be who a few self-designated despots say who its members are, all > others are considered free-loaders and trouble makers. The members of the community most useful to the project are those who do work (of whatever kind) to support the project. In this case, helping to support 3.x releases yourself, if you think we should be, counts volumes more than asking others to do so. By all means, contribute away! Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 4 14: 3:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from athserv.otenet.gr (athserv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBAD237B66C for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 14:03:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a081.otenet.gr [212.205.215.81]) by athserv.otenet.gr (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e94L22d06037; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 00:02:02 +0300 (EET DST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e94JYHm32797; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 22:34:17 +0300 (EEST) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 22:34:16 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: John Howie Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ftpd bug in FreeBSD through at least 3.4 Message-ID: <20001004223416.A32669@hades.hell.gr> References: <23683.970516562@critter> <038b01c02cb2$1b5092c0$fd01a8c0@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <038b01c02cb2$1b5092c0$fd01a8c0@pacbell.net>; from JHowie@msn.com on Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 01:48:23PM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ Cc: list trimmed down. Sorry if this bothers anyone. ] On Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 01:48:23PM -0700, John Howie wrote: > > > Until you do you're asking me to waste my spare time because you > > cannot be bothered to upgrade your system to recent releases. > > It is not easy to install, configure, and administer and the problem > is compounded by having to rebuild half of /usr/local in some > circumstances. Well, FreeBSD is way easier for me to install than some other OSes, I have to admit. Having to rebuild part of my /usr/local is a bit of pain, since my home machine is not what I would call `state o' the art', but I prefer a clean, well-defined, upgrade procedure, than the usual Windows way of format-and-reinstall-everything. > Maybe if we looked at supporting past releases we could win some > fans in the business community. So true. There are people who are not upgrading to the latest -stable because they think that their 3.x installations are more stable. Then there are those who administer dozens of 3.x installations and want lots of time to upgrade them all. Then those who were waiting for 4.1 to become -stable and *then* start planning their upgrades. I could not agree more with the above statement. Recent threads in -current show that support for older releases should not be dropped the first few days, weeks or months that a new -stable is released. > Don't be surprised if FreeBSD doesn't take over the world because we > don't support users running past releases. It's all a matter of what you define as 'take over the world', but this is another topic. And I'm already way off-topic regarding the original post, while posting this reply. I just wanted to add my humble vote in the `we as in "the people who are actively using older releases" should spare some of our time in supporting those few that still run older releases.' I am nothing but a 4-stable user at the moment, but when I can help people with 3.x installations, I know I still do my best to help them :-) -- Giorgos Keramidas, < keramida @ ceid . upatras . gr > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 4 14: 3:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from athserv.otenet.gr (athserv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2FD337B66F for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 14:03:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a081.otenet.gr [212.205.215.81]) by athserv.otenet.gr (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e94L1od05565; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 00:01:51 +0300 (EET DST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e94JpGg32894; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 22:51:16 +0300 (EEST) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 22:51:16 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Brett Glass Cc: Greg Lehey , Poul-Henning Kamp , Wes Peters , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: politeness Message-ID: <20001004225116.C32669@hades.hell.gr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001003132247.043d11e0@localhost> <50956.970600554@critter> <4.3.2.7.2.20001003132247.043d11e0@localhost> <20001004105021.G7292@wantadilla.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20001003195415.044551d0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001003195415.044551d0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, Oct 03, 2000 at 09:57:49PM -0600 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Oct 03, 2000 at 09:57:49PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 07:20 PM 10/3/2000, Greg Lehey wrote: > > >Brett, I think you're missing the point. Like many people, > >Poul-Henning and I tend to delete your messages unread. > > That's a shame, though it is of course your choice. [snip] > If you have formed the opinion that I have only "one opinion," it must > be because you have very incomplete information. Perhaps the paragraph > at the top of this message explains why you labor under this misconception. > If you are deleting most of what I write without reading it, how could you > possibly know what opinions I might have expressed? From the messages you posted before he started that habbit of his. It is that obvious that you shouldn't have even asked. > >To be fair, I haven't seen many retractions on your part. > > How can you tell? Again, you say yourself that you have been deleting > most of my messages unread! This is, without doubt, one of the repetitions that Greg refers to. Now I can see what he means. -- Giorgos Keramidas, < keramida @ ceid . upatras . gr > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 4 14: 3:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from athserv.otenet.gr (athserv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E093E37B502 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 14:03:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a081.otenet.gr [212.205.215.81]) by athserv.otenet.gr (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e94L1td05780; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 00:01:55 +0300 (EET DST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e94JdUA32836; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 22:39:30 +0300 (EEST) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 22:39:29 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: "Michael C . Wu" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Lucent modems question Message-ID: <20001004223929.B32669@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 11:45:06AM -0500, Michael C . Wu wrote: > > Lucent seems to have released a winmodem driver for linux. Oh. Since this was brought up. Has anyone user such a beast on Linux. I am just curious to see if the driver trying to cope with the crippled Winmodem beast, is as resource hungry as it seems to be on Windows. One would expect that emulating a "real" modem in the driver would cost a few extra CPU cycles, or memory, or other system resources. -- Giorgos Keramidas, < keramida @ ceid . upatras . gr > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 4 14:17:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39B2E37B502 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 14:17:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA12431; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 14:14:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAqBay5x; Wed Oct 4 14:14:32 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA02286; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 14:16:59 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200010042116.OAA02286@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Sony VAIO, winmodems, etc. (was Re: ftpd bug) To: keichii@peorth.iteration.net Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 21:16:58 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), nate@yogotech.com, JHowie@msn.com (John Howie), phk@critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp), brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20001004114506.A24813@peorth.iteration.net> from "Michael C . Wu" at Oct 04, 2000 11:45:06 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 09:48:26PM +0000, Terry Lambert scribbled: > | I wish my Vaio's winmodem worked on FreeBSD. Same for the > | sound card, and don't get me started on DVD playback support. > > Winmodem can't be helped. Yes it can; I've sent a copy of "Sourcer" and the drivers to a German friend of mine to document, if it isn't too big a task. > But sound and DVD both work on my VAIO z505js > Sound was done by "device pcm," and DVD just "worked." I'll try the sound. I'm pretty sure that I will only be able to use the DVD as a CDROM drive under BSD, and not be able to play DVDs. > Many people have had trouble installing drivers in WinXX. Not me. But I've done protected mode work on both Windows 9x and on NT, so I'm probably an exception, being clued and all that... ;-). > Lucent seems to have released a winmodem driver for linux. There is also the "linmodem" stuff, but neither supports the Rockwell HCF 56K Data Fax RTAD PCI Modem. > | If you buy a new machine with an old OS, it's supported by > | Microsoft for 90 days from date of purchse, so long as the > | vendor has a contract with Microsoft. > > If you buy a new machine from Telenet with FreeBSD or BSD/OS, > I think it would be supported... > But, are you buying FreeBSD when you do an FTP install? I installed from a bootable FreBSD 4.1 CDROM. If you have a bootable CDROM in the drive and power on a Sony VAIO PCG-XG2{8|9}, it will actually boot from the thing (this is not documented in the user's guide, but is pretty frigging slick/0. I bought a copy of Partition Magic with Boot Magic beforehand, and had done the reallocations, so things just went right in. Getting XFree86 working was a hell of chore, but it's happy now. So the non-default status list is: painful XFree86 1024x768; I can supply a config file, if someone decides they need one. The chipset is not quite supported, so much of the acceleration is currently disabled; big deal, the thing is a 750MHz Pentium III on a laptop. config? Sound not currently working config? APM not currently working broken Rockwell HCF Data Fax RTAD PCI Modem (winmodem) broken Fn-key keyboard based sound, brightness, monitor, sleep, and suspend mode controls config? Windows and menu keys on keyboard config? Touchpad single/double click is overly sensitive config? No third button (can touchpad be discriminated?) untried Firewire (no FreeBSD video apps) untried IR (no FreeBSD stuff for IR printers) untried USB (no USB keyboard arrived via UPS, yet) Overall, I'm pretty happy with the thing for doing work, and, of course, if I really need to watch a DVD, or use the modem, or the other features broken in FreeBSD, I can boot Windows and tolerate it long enough to use the Windows-only stuff. The thing is a hell of a lot faster than the desktop I used at Whistle; I've already got 2.8M lines of code in my CVS repository on the thing, so it's an OK CVS server, too. Has anyone used the optional R/W CDROM to burn a CD on one of these things yet? Network backups are a pain. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 4 14:24:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05B7237B503 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 14:24:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA16195; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 14:21:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAIcaWkF; Wed Oct 4 14:21:40 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA02522; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 14:24:08 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200010042124.OAA02522@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Buying vs. "Buying in" To: keichii@peorth.iteration.net Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 21:24:07 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20001004121710.C24813@peorth.iteration.net> from "Michael C . Wu" at Oct 04, 2000 12:17:10 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > | than buying a product. This is true of all cooperatively > | developed and maintained software. The sense of community is > | vital to the whole thing. This is why territoriality in such > | situations is so ungood. > > Territoriality in Bill Joy gave BSD its TCP/IP stack. Not really; that was DARPA. Bill did very little "peeing on things to make them smell like Bill"; he's done some of that recently, taking credit for an idea that Chicken Little had long ago, but it's been very absent from his non-pundit career, so far as I've been able to tell. Pissing contests are almost always a bad idea, unless you are certain you have just had a "Super Big Gulp", and you know your opponent hasn't, and isn't on diuretics. Even then, it just mostly leaves you looking like a bully, and is pretty much bad form all around: short term gain at the expense of long term gain, a bad trade. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 4 14:48:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 571BB37B503 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 14:48:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA16028; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 14:46:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA0jaamF; Wed Oct 4 14:46:27 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA03066; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 14:47:56 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200010042147.OAA03066@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Lucent modems question To: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr (Giorgos Keramidas) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 21:47:56 +0000 (GMT) Cc: keichii@peorth.iteration.net (Michael C . Wu), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20001004223929.B32669@hades.hell.gr> from "Giorgos Keramidas" at Oct 04, 2000 10:39:29 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Lucent seems to have released a winmodem driver for linux. > > Oh. Since this was brought up. Has anyone user such a beast on Linux. > I am just curious to see if the driver trying to cope with the crippled > Winmodem beast, is as resource hungry as it seems to be on Windows. One > would expect that emulating a "real" modem in the driver would cost a > few extra CPU cycles, or memory, or other system resources. DSP-based versions are not CPU hungry. See http://linmodems.org/ Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 4 18:16:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [207.154.84.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7615237B502 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 18:16:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 39512 invoked by uid 1114); 5 Oct 2000 01:16:22 -0000 Date: 4 Oct 2000 18:16:22 -0700 Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 18:16:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Ceren Ercen To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Not so quick self-introduction :) In-Reply-To: <200010021517.JAA11194@harmony.village.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Give me a couple of years. :) (content? what content?) - Ceren E. FreeBSD's "Strange Attractor". On Mon, 2 Oct 2000, Warner Losh wrote: > In message Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > : "Mario Sergio Fujikawa Ferreira" writes: > : > I am a fresh ports committer being sponsored by Will Andrews (will). > : > Hi, Mom. > : > : Your mother reads -committers? Wow. > > Speaking of females, do we have any female committers? > > Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 4 19:15:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14F0837B502 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 19:15:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 3D6B85730C; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 21:15:46 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 21:15:46 -0500 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sony VAIO, winmodems, etc. (was Re: ftpd bug) Message-ID: <20001004211546.B31130@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" References: <20001004114506.A24813@peorth.iteration.net> <200010042116.OAA02286@usr06.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200010042116.OAA02286@usr06.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 09:16:58PM +0000 X-FreeBSD-Header: This is a subliminal message from the vast FreeBSD conspiracy project. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD peorth.iteration.net 4.1.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 4.1.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 09:16:58PM +0000, Terry Lambert scribbled: | > On Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 09:48:26PM +0000, Terry Lambert scribbled: | > | I wish my Vaio's winmodem worked on FreeBSD. Same for the | > | sound card, and don't get me started on DVD playback support. | > | > Winmodem can't be helped. | Yes it can; I've sent a copy of "Sourcer" and the drivers to a | German friend of mine to document, if it isn't too big a task. And I will wait....while I use my wavelan card :) | > But sound and DVD both work on my VAIO z505js | > Sound was done by "device pcm," and DVD just "worked." | I'll try the sound. I'm pretty sure that I will only be able | to use the DVD as a CDROM drive under BSD, and not be able to | play DVDs. I can read DVD data. The DVD playing *can* be done via DeCSS, but I ..um...am afraid of lawsuits, etc. | > Many people have had trouble installing drivers in WinXX. | Not me. But I've done protected mode work on both Windows 9x | and on NT, so I'm probably an exception, being clued and all | that... ;-). For example, some newer ATI video cards do not have drivers in Win2k. | > Lucent seems to have released a winmodem driver for linux. | There is also the "linmodem" stuff, but neither supports the | Rockwell HCF 56K Data Fax RTAD PCI Modem. Modems? bah! :) | > | If you buy a new machine with an old OS, it's supported by | > | Microsoft for 90 days from date of purchse, so long as the | > | vendor has a contract with Microsoft. | > | > If you buy a new machine from Telenet with FreeBSD or BSD/OS, | > I think it would be supported... | > But, are you buying FreeBSD when you do an FTP install? | painful XFree86 1024x768; I can supply a config file, if | someone decides they need one. The chipset is not | quite supported, so much of the acceleration is | currently disabled; big deal, the thing is a 750MHz | Pentium III on a laptop. | config? Sound not currently working -current 08092000 has never crashed on me, and pcm works well. | config? APM not currently working Mine works well, fxp0/usb resumes and comes back up. Suspend-to-disk suspend-to-memory both work. APM sometimes doesn't report the right battery time. However, the battery percentage is always correct | broken Rockwell HCF Data Fax RTAD PCI Modem (winmodem) | broken Fn-key keyboard based sound, brightness, monitor, | sleep, and suspend mode controls That's a windows driver thing, neither does the JogDial work. | config? Windows and menu keys on keyboard Works as meta keys for me in X. | config? Touchpad single/double click is overly sensitive You can change that via a moused undocumented option. | config? No third button (can touchpad be discriminated?) I just set my 3-button emulation to have a 500ms delay. | untried Firewire (no FreeBSD video apps) | untried IR (no FreeBSD stuff for IR printers) | untried USB (no USB keyboard arrived via UPS, yet) USB mouse/keyboard/printer works. The memory stick slot works as a umass0->da0 device and controllable via camcontrol. | Overall, I'm pretty happy with the thing for doing work, and, of | course, if I really need to watch a DVD, or use the modem, or the | other features broken in FreeBSD, I can boot Windows and tolerate | it long enough to use the Windows-only stuff. Same here. | The thing is a hell of a lot faster than the desktop I used at | Whistle; I've already got 2.8M lines of code in my CVS repository | on the thing, so it's an OK CVS server, too. | Has anyone used the optional R/W CDROM to burn a CD on one of | these things yet? Network backups are a pain. Btw, the PCMCIA CDROM/CDRW/DVD-ROM can all boot from CD's. There is an option in the BIOS (push ctrl-f2 during boot) to do that. Even USB floppy boots FreeBSD thanks to JHB. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 4 19:30:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB32437B502 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 19:30:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13h0o6-000CMG-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 03:30:50 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA44287 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 03:30:49 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 03:30:49 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Grog's Advocate article Message-ID: <20001005033049.A44228@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone want to bet there is a new 'Complete FreeBSD' on the way? :) Revised for 4.x? This is only a guess, but it's something I've been wondering for a while now, and the article stub certainly could go that direction. Or maybe it's some other announcement none of us are anticipating. :) jcm -- "I drank WHAT ?!" - Socrates To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 4 19:46:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3695837B502 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 19:46:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) id e952i8412375; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 12:14:08 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 12:14:08 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: j mckitrick Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Grog's Advocate article Message-ID: <20001005121408.B12234@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20001005033049.A44228@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20001005033049.A44228@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Thu, Oct 05, 2000 at 03:30:49AM +0100 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 5 October 2000 at 3:30:49 +0100, j mckitrick wrote: > > Anyone want to bet there is a new 'Complete FreeBSD' on the way? :) > Revised for 4.x? I'll bet "yes". > This is only a guess, but it's something I've been wondering for a > while now, and the article stub certainly could go that direction. > Or maybe it's some other announcement none of us are anticipating. :) That's not such world-shattering information that we'd wait 10 days before publishing it. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 4 22:40: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DD3B37B502 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 22:39:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA16337; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 22:36:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAhQaiZF; Wed Oct 4 22:36:39 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA18430; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 22:39:42 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200010050539.WAA18430@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Sony VAIO, winmodems, etc. (was Re: ftpd bug) To: keichii@peorth.iteration.net Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 05:39:42 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20001004211546.B31130@peorth.iteration.net> from "Michael C . Wu" at Oct 04, 2000 09:15:46 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > | > Winmodem can't be helped. > | > | Yes it can; I've sent a copy of "Sourcer" and the drivers to a > | German friend of mine to document, if it isn't too big a task. > > And I will wait....while I use my wavelan card :) The encryption capable base station and cards cost way more, and still require a system between the base station and the net. The Apple one will do dial on demand and NAT (without firewall), asuming you have a Winodws machine to configure it. > I can read DVD data. The DVD playing *can* be done via DeCSS, > but I ..um...am afraid of lawsuits, etc. As I said: to get the NeoMagic chip in the Sony working, you have to disable almost all acceleration, which makes the DeCSS approach pretty useless. > | > Many people have had trouble installing drivers in WinXX. > | Not me. But I've done protected mode work on both Windows 9x > | and on NT, so I'm probably an exception, being clued and all > | that... ;-). > > For example, some newer ATI video cards do not have drivers in Win2k. You can use the generic drivers for that. But you know, just as there are no Win2K drivers for things that have sat on shelves or in warehoses too long, there are no FreeBSD drivers, either. There are only a few cards where the 3D acceleration works under FreeBSD, and there's very little software that can take advantage of it. > | > Lucent seems to have released a winmodem driver for linux. > | There is also the "linmodem" stuff, but neither supports the > | Rockwell HCF 56K Data Fax RTAD PCI Modem. > > Modems? bah! :) I can tell from your surname capitalization that you are from a country that pays mesage units for local calls. In the U.S., we pay a flat rate for local phone service, and call our ISP without paying connect time charges to the phone company. But I can see where modems might not be the most popular thing in Japan. > | config? APM not currently working > > Mine works well, fxp0/usb resumes and comes back up. > Suspend-to-disk suspend-to-memory both work. > APM sometimes doesn't report the right battery time. However, > the battery percentage is always correct Good news; I may spend some time hacking this on my machine. > | broken Fn-key keyboard based sound, brightness, monitor, > | sleep, and suspend mode controls > > That's a windows driver thing, neither does the JogDial work. The JogDial is a FreeBSD driver issue; I'd be happy if I could make it scroll my Netscape window when surfing. The "Windows driver thing" for brightness, etc., shows a copyright by Phoenix; it's part of the BIOS. Accessing that is supposed to be a fault-to-BIOS thing, like the external system management stuff first introduced by Cyrix (which also doesn't work on FreeBSD). > | config? Touchpad single/double click is overly sensitive > > You can change that via a moused undocumented option. More data, please? > | config? No third button (can touchpad be discriminated?) > > I just set my 3-button emulation to have a 500ms delay. On many laptops, the touchpad "button" generates real seperate events that happen to be mapped into button1. If FreeBSD were to distinguish these,button1 could be the touchpad "tap", button2 the left button, and button3 the right button. Or even uses the JogDial "click". The pojnt is, it's nearly impossible to scroll windows in X and do other useful things without either remapping the system to be different from all others defaults, remapping all your systems for crippled mice. > | untried Firewire (no FreeBSD video apps) > | untried IR (no FreeBSD stuff for IR printers) > | untried USB (no USB keyboard arrived via UPS, yet) > > USB mouse/keyboard/printer works. Also good news. > The memory stick slot works as a umass0->da0 device and controllable > via camcontrol. Have a PCG-XG; different animal. 8-). > | Has anyone used the optional R/W CDROM to burn a CD on one of > | these things yet? Network backups are a pain. > > Btw, the PCMCIA CDROM/CDRW/DVD-ROM can all boot from CD's. > There is an option in the BIOS (push ctrl-f2 during boot) to > do that. Even USB floppy boots FreeBSD thanks to JHB. This thing has an optional internal one (PCGA-CDRWX1/A, CD-RW Drive); no need to use an extrernal, even if I trusted it. 8-). My next big adventure is going to be the docking station, particularly the PCMCIA, and it's going to not support the additional audio and the fiber optic port, I'm pretty sure. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 4 22:46:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39C0D37B502 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 22:46:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA10456; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 23:46:25 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001004234351.0467c8e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 23:46:20 -0600 To: Terry Lambert , keichii@peorth.iteration.net From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Sony VAIO, winmodems, etc. (was Re: ftpd bug) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200010050539.WAA18430@usr08.primenet.com> References: <20001004211546.B31130@peorth.iteration.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:39 PM 10/4/2000, Terry Lambert wrote: >My next big adventure is going to be the docking station, >particularly the PCMCIA, and it's going to not support the >additional audio and the fiber optic port, I'm pretty sure. Terry: You're a brave man trying to get a VAIO working with anything but Windows! I hear that some folks have gotten the modem working with Red Hat, but that's the only thing that Linux does better on the VAIO than FreeBSD. I hear that the $25 OSS driver will work with the VAIO but throws away the hardware wavetable support.... --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 4 23:21: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65E3537B502 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 23:21:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e956L6Z12766 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 23:21:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 23:21:06 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: new netscape6 is awesome! Message-ID: <20001004232105.W27736@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org For some reason my linux-netscape4 stopped working so I upgraded my expired netscape6 to the latest PR3 version. It's pretty awesome, too bad it doesn't seem to have a newsreader. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 4 23:33:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB13237B503 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 23:33:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA10795; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 00:33:05 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001005003157.00d4de80@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 00:33:02 -0600 To: Alfred Perlstein , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: new netscape6 is awesome! In-Reply-To: <20001004232105.W27736@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Does Version 6 for Linux have the same "spyware" features that that the Windows version has? --Brett At 12:21 AM 10/5/2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: >For some reason my linux-netscape4 stopped working so I upgraded >my expired netscape6 to the latest PR3 version. > >It's pretty awesome, too bad it doesn't seem to have a newsreader. > >-- >-Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] >"I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 4 23:36:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA6BF37B503 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 23:36:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e956aSW13147; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 23:36:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 23:36:28 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: new netscape6 is awesome! Message-ID: <20001004233628.X27736@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20001004232105.W27736@fw.wintelcom.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20001005003157.00d4de80@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001005003157.00d4de80@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Thu, Oct 05, 2000 at 12:33:02AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Brett Glass [001004 23:33] wrote: > Does Version 6 for Linux have the same "spyware" features that > that the Windows version has? Urm? What port/subnet do i need to block? -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 4 23:38:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shale.csir.co.za (shale.csir.co.za [146.64.46.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 586AD37B503 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 23:38:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from C992631-A.pinol1.sfba.home.com (C992631-A.pinol1.sfba.home.com [24.12.58.155]) by shale.csir.co.za (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA12654; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:38:18 +0200 (SAT) (envelope-from reg@shale.csir.co.za) Received: (from reg@localhost) by C992631-A.pinol1.sfba.home.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e956c2P83731; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 23:38:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reg) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 23:38:02 -0700 From: Jeremy Lea To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: new netscape6 is awesome! Message-ID: <20001004233802.Y30468@shale.csir.co.za> References: <20001004232105.W27736@fw.wintelcom.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20001005003157.00d4de80@localhost> <20001004233628.X27736@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001004233628.X27736@fw.wintelcom.net>; from bright@wintelcom.net on Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 11:36:28PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 11:36:28PM -0700, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * Brett Glass [001004 23:33] wrote: > > Does Version 6 for Linux have the same "spyware" features that > > that the Windows version has? > > Urm? What port/subnet do i need to block? It's called 'fullcircle' and it can email netscape when there's a crash... Spyware... boy are people paranoid. -Jeremy -- FreeBSD - Because the best things in life are free... http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 4 23:56:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost01.reflexnet.net (mailhost01.reflexnet.net [64.6.192.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 470D037B66D for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 23:56:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com ([64.6.211.149]) by mailhost01.reflexnet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Wed, 4 Oct 2000 23:54:57 -0700 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e956u7n85016; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 23:56:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 23:56:07 -0700 From: "Crist J . Clark" To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: new netscape6 is awesome! Message-ID: <20001004235607.F25121@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <20001004232105.W27736@fw.wintelcom.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20001005003157.00d4de80@localhost> <20001004233628.X27736@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20001004233628.X27736@fw.wintelcom.net>; from bright@wintelcom.net on Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 11:36:28PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 11:36:28PM -0700, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * Brett Glass [001004 23:33] wrote: > > Does Version 6 for Linux have the same "spyware" features that > > that the Windows version has? > > Urm? What port/subnet do i need to block? I would assume it tunnels it through http, port 80. Netscape might not be too useful if you just block that one. App developers are making assigned ports pointless. They use port 80 for everything so it "just works" without having people have to whine at their firewall administrators to get the ports open for the app. Stateful packet filter firewalls be will totally obsolete soon (if they aren't already). We'll all have to run a http proxy on the local box. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 5 0:44:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A47C337B502 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 00:44:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA11228; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 01:44:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001005013823.00c80840@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 01:44:10 -0600 To: Alfred Perlstein From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: new netscape6 is awesome! Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20001004233628.X27736@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001005003157.00d4de80@localhost> <20001004232105.W27736@fw.wintelcom.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20001005003157.00d4de80@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:36 AM 10/5/2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: >Urm? What port/subnet do i need to block? The earlier versions for Linux complained if they couldn't "phone home" to Netscape every now and then; newer versions are probably no different. When you first start the browser up, it tries to signal Netscape/AOL that you've installed it by hitting a particular page on their site. It also gets a permanent ID cookie that identifies you to Mr. Steve Case and his minions (Do I sound cynical tonight? Maybe it's because I am....) whenever you visit a site within his empire. The "What's Related" feature snitches on your browsing habits, as does the "SmartDownload" feature. So, disconnect the machine from the Net until you've turned these things off and reset the start page to something other than Netscape's. If you have a packet sniffer, you might want to watch for other spying activity and block the relevant addresses. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 5 0:49:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 377A137B503; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 00:49:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA11250; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 01:49:25 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001005014455.00ce7280@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 01:49:22 -0600 To: Jeremy Lea , Alfred Perlstein From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: new netscape6 is awesome! Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20001004233802.Y30468@shale.csir.co.za> References: <20001004233628.X27736@fw.wintelcom.net> <20001004232105.W27736@fw.wintelcom.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20001005003157.00d4de80@localhost> <20001004233628.X27736@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:38 AM 10/5/2000, Jeremy Lea wrote: >It's called 'fullcircle' and it can email netscape when there's a >crash... That's not the one I'm most concerned about. Did you know that the "SmartDownload Agent" tells Netscape the name of every file you download? And associates it with a unique ID? See Steve Gibson's site at http://grc.com/ for detailed info. >Spyware... boy are people paranoid. I wish it WERE paranoia. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 5 1: 2:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freenix.no (atreides.freenix.no [213.188.21.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDA3537B503 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 01:02:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.flipp.net [127.0.0.1]) by freenix.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA75311; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 10:02:13 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from morten@freenix.no) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 10:02:13 +0200 (CEST) From: "Morten A. Middelthon" To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: new netscape6 is awesome! In-Reply-To: <20001004232105.W27736@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 4 Oct 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > For some reason my linux-netscape4 stopped working so I upgraded > my expired netscape6 to the latest PR3 version. > > It's pretty awesome, too bad it doesn't seem to have a newsreader. I got it installed, but when I try to run it it just segfaults... How's netscape6 pr3 compared to mozilla m17/18? -- Morten A. Middelthon Freenix Norge http://www.freenix.no/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 5 1:13:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freenix.no (atreides.freenix.no [213.188.21.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7215937B502 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 01:13:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.flipp.net [127.0.0.1]) by freenix.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA75368; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 10:13:17 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from morten@freenix.no) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 10:13:17 +0200 (CEST) From: "Morten A. Middelthon" To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: new netscape6 is awesome! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, Morten A. Middelthon wrote: > On Wed, 4 Oct 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > For some reason my linux-netscape4 stopped working so I upgraded > > my expired netscape6 to the latest PR3 version. > > > > It's pretty awesome, too bad it doesn't seem to have a newsreader. > > I got it installed, but when I try to run it it just segfaults... Nevermind that, obviously running 'cd /usr/local/netscape; ./netscape' didn't work, but '/usr/local/netscape/netscape' did, since my user couldn't write to that directory. -- Morten A. Middelthon Freenix Norge http://www.freenix.no/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 5 1:54:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ADF937B502 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 01:54:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 1584F5730C; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 03:55:00 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 03:55:00 -0500 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sony VAIO, winmodems, etc. (was Re: ftpd bug) Message-ID: <20001005035500.A32697@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" References: <20001004211546.B31130@peorth.iteration.net> <200010050539.WAA18430@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200010050539.WAA18430@usr08.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Thu, Oct 05, 2000 at 05:39:42AM +0000 X-FreeBSD-Header: This is a subliminal message from the vast FreeBSD conspiracy project. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD peorth.iteration.net 4.1.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 4.1.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Oct 05, 2000 at 05:39:42AM +0000, Terry Lambert scribbled: | > | > Winmodem can't be helped. | > | Yes it can; I've sent a copy of "Sourcer" and the drivers to a | > | German friend of mine to document, if it isn't too big a task. | > And I will wait....while I use my wavelan card :) | | The encryption capable base station and cards cost way more, | and still require a system between the base station and the | net. The Apple one will do dial on demand and NAT (without | firewall), asuming you have a Winodws machine to configure it. Nah, no windows at home... But I do have an Apple G4-500 8-) I do not have an Airport station though. I live close enough to school that I can access the school LAN through wavelan. | > I can read DVD data. The DVD playing *can* be done via DeCSS, | > but I ..um...am afraid of lawsuits, etc. | As I said: to get the NeoMagic chip in the Sony working, you | have to disable almost all acceleration, which makes the DeCSS | approach pretty useless. XFree-Current runs on NeoMagic with full support stablely. I have also bought a copy of AccelX, which supports the new NeoMagic chipsets fully. However, I had to give that up because xfstt has bad Chinese TTF support. (AccelX can only use xfstt to render TTF, it seems.) | > | > Many people have had trouble installing drivers in WinXX. | > | Not me. But I've done protected mode work on both Windows 9x | > | and on NT, so I'm probably an exception, being clued and all | > | that... ;-). | > For example, some newer ATI video cards do not have drivers in Win2k. | You can use the generic drivers for that. But you know, just | as there are no Win2K drivers for things that have sat on | shelves or in warehoses too long, there are no FreeBSD drivers, | either. There are only a few cards where the 3D acceleration | works under FreeBSD, and there's very little software that can Console? or X? XFree86-4.*-Current works quite well for me. I do not really see a need for me to view ASCII art with 2D/3D acceleration in console though. :) | take advantage of it. | > | > Lucent seems to have released a winmodem driver for linux. | > | There is also the "linmodem" stuff, but neither supports the | > | Rockwell HCF 56K Data Fax RTAD PCI Modem. | > Modems? bah! :) | I can tell from your surname capitalization that you are from | a country that pays mesage units for local calls. In the U.S., Yes, that is correct. | we pay a flat rate for local phone service, and call our ISP | without paying connect time charges to the phone company. But | I can see where modems might not be the most popular thing in | Japan. Actually, I am from Taiwan, and I live in the United States. My name is Chinese/Taiwanese, and I am Chinese/Taiwanese. :) | > | config? APM not currently working | > Mine works well, fxp0/usb resumes and comes back up. | > Suspend-to-disk suspend-to-memory both work. | > APM sometimes doesn't report the right battery time. However, | > the battery percentage is always correct | Good news; I may spend some time hacking this on my machine. Nah, Warner made it really easy. :) | > | broken Fn-key keyboard based sound, brightness, monitor, | > | sleep, and suspend mode controls | > That's a windows driver thing, neither does the JogDial work. | The JogDial is a FreeBSD driver issue; I'd be happy if I could make | it scroll my Netscape window when surfing. By "windows driver thing," I meant that they only have a driver for windows. I could not even figure out how the JogDial talks to the system. Is it just a serial port? | The "Windows driver thing" for brightness, etc., shows a copyright | by Phoenix; it's part of the BIOS. Accessing that is supposed to | be a fault-to-BIOS thing, like the external system management stuff | first introduced by Cyrix (which also doesn't work on FreeBSD). | > | config? Touchpad single/double click is overly sensitive | > You can change that via a moused undocumented option. | More data, please? I do not recall how I did it when I used it to setup a bad mouse a couple years ago, but it is in the moused source. | > | config? No third button (can touchpad be discriminated?) | > I just set my 3-button emulation to have a 500ms delay. | | On many laptops, the touchpad "button" generates real seperate | events that happen to be mapped into button1. If FreeBSD were | to distinguish these,button1 could be the touchpad "tap", | button2 the left button, and button3 the right button. Or even | uses the JogDial "click". The pojnt is, it's nearly impossible | to scroll windows in X and do other useful things without either | remapping the system to be different from all others defaults, | remapping all your systems for crippled mice. Emacs > *, :P | > | untried Firewire (no FreeBSD video apps) | > | untried IR (no FreeBSD stuff for IR printers) | > | untried USB (no USB keyboard arrived via UPS, yet) | > USB mouse/keyboard/printer works. | Also good news. | > The memory stick slot works as a umass0->da0 device and controllable | > via camcontrol. | Have a PCG-XG; different animal. 8-). | > | Has anyone used the optional R/W CDROM to burn a CD on one of | > | these things yet? Network backups are a pain. | > Btw, the PCMCIA CDROM/CDRW/DVD-ROM can all boot from CD's. | > There is an option in the BIOS (push ctrl-f2 during boot) to | > do that. Even USB floppy boots FreeBSD thanks to JHB. | This thing has an optional internal one (PCGA-CDRWX1/A, CD-RW | Drive); no need to use an extrernal, even if I trusted it. 8-). | My next big adventure is going to be the docking station, | particularly the PCMCIA, and it's going to not support the | additional audio and the fiber optic port, I'm pretty sure. Fiber optic port in a laptop? heh. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 5 2:40:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40CE637B502 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 02:40:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B9E418311; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 11:40:06 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200010050539.WAA18430@usr08.primenet.com> References: <200010050539.WAA18430@usr08.primenet.com> Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 11:36:04 +0200 To: Terry Lambert , keichii@peorth.iteration.net From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Sony VAIO, winmodems, etc. (was Re: ftpd bug) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:39 AM +0000 2000/10/5, Terry Lambert wrote: > The Apple one will do dial on demand and NAT (without > firewall), asuming you have a Winodws machine to configure it. I have the Apple AirPort base station. I tried using the PC software (Karlbridge?) to configure it. It wouldn't work. It could read configuration information, but IIRC, I couldn't get it to change anything. I also have a lot of problems with the unit getting out-of-sync with the computers, such that I can't even reboot it remotely with the provided administration software. I have to unplug the power cord, leave it off for a few seconds, and then plug it back in again -- Frequently. I hope and pray that once I get the ISDN router working, this thing will work okay as a wireless/wired bridge, and leave all the "hard" stuff to the ISDN router. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 5 4:32:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58B2237B66C for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 04:32:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13h9GI-000HGK-00; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 12:32:30 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA47583; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 12:32:26 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 12:32:25 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Greg Lehey Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Grog's Advocate article Message-ID: <20001005123225.A47526@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20001005033049.A44228@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20001005121408.B12234@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20001005121408.B12234@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@lemis.com on Thu, Oct 05, 2000 at 12:14:08PM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Oct 05, 2000 at 12:14:08PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: | On Thursday, 5 October 2000 at 3:30:49 +0100, j mckitrick wrote: | > | > Anyone want to bet there is a new 'Complete FreeBSD' on the way? :) | > Revised for 4.x? | | I'll bet "yes". | | > This is only a guess, but it's something I've been wondering for a | > while now, and the article stub certainly could go that direction. | > Or maybe it's some other announcement none of us are anticipating. :) | | That's not such world-shattering information that we'd wait 10 days | before publishing it. True :) Well, it must be *something* exciting, and that's worth waiting for. We'll just have to wait and see. jcm -- "I drank WHAT ?!" - Socrates To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 5 8:14:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94AC337B502 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:14:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id B7E29755D; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:18:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B26481D90; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:18:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:18:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: new netscape6 is awesome! In-Reply-To: <20001004232105.W27736@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 4 Oct 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: :For some reason my linux-netscape4 stopped working so I upgraded :my expired netscape6 to the latest PR3 version. : :It's pretty awesome, too bad it doesn't seem to have a newsreader. Many would argue that this is in fact, a good thing. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 5 9:10: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61CEA37B502 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 09:10:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from utah (jcwells@utah.nwlink.com [209.20.130.41]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA06561; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 09:08:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 09:21:38 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcwells@utah To: Greg Lehey Cc: j mckitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Grog's Advocate article In-Reply-To: <20001005121408.B12234@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Thursday, 5 October 2000 at 3:30:49 +0100, j mckitrick wrote: > > > > Anyone want to bet there is a new 'Complete FreeBSD' on the way? :) > > Revised for 4.x? > > I'll bet "yes". I'll bet no! You guys are smoking crack. :) Greg, did anything become of the talk about a year ago of an ORA book by you on the topic of FreeBSD? Thank you, Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 5 14:35:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (mta05-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB98C37B503 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 14:35:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parish ([62.253.85.201]) by mta07-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20001005181715.ZBJZ27285.mta07-svc.ntlworld.com@parish>; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 19:17:15 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e95IHBS01809; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 19:17:11 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 19:17:06 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: new netscape6 is awesome! Message-ID: <20001005191705.B258@parish> References: <20001004232105.W27736@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001004232105.W27736@fw.wintelcom.net>; from bright@wintelcom.net on Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 11:21:06PM -0700 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 11:21:06PM -0700, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > For some reason my linux-netscape4 stopped working so I upgraded > my expired netscape6 to the latest PR3 version. > How did you install it? I grabbed the installer from Netscape's website but: # tar zxvf netscape-i686-pc-linux-gnu-installer.tar.gz # cd netscape-installer # ./netscape-installer ./netscape-installer-bin: error in loading shared libraries: libgtk-1.2.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory # ldconfig -r | grep gtk 102:-lgtk12.2 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libgtk12.so.2 120:-lgtkxmhtml.4 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libgtkxmhtml.so.4 123:-lgnorbagtk.4 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libgnorbagtk.so.4 # ln -s /usr/X11R6/lib/libgtk12.so.2 /usr/X11R6/lib/libgtk-1.2.so.0 # ./netscape-installer ./netscape-installer-bin: error in loading shared libraries: libgtk-1.2.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory # ldconfig -r | grep gtk 102:-lgtk12.2 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libgtk12.so.2 120:-lgtkxmhtml.4 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libgtkxmhtml.so.4 123:-lgnorbagtk.4 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libgnorbagtk.so.4 125:-lgtk-1.2.0 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libgtk-1.2.so.0 > It's pretty awesome, too bad it doesn't seem to have a newsreader. > > -- > -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] > "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- 4.4 - The number of the Beastie ________________________________________________________________ 51.44°N FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org 2.057°W My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark mailto:marko@freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 5 17:34:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84FAC37B503 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 17:34:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-71-2.dialup.hiwaay.net [216.180.71.2]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e960Yc725696 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 19:34:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id e960X5a70113 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 19:33:07 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <200010060033.e960X5a70113@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Grog's Advocate article In-reply-to: Message from Greg Lehey of "Thu, 05 Oct 2000 12:14:08 +0930." <20001005121408.B12234@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 19:33:05 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > On Thursday, 5 October 2000 at 3:30:49 +0100, j mckitrick wrote: > > > This is only a guess, but it's something I've been wondering for a > > while now, and the article stub certainly could go that direction. > > Or maybe it's some other announcement none of us are anticipating. :) > > That's not such world-shattering information that we'd wait 10 days > before publishing it. OK. Lets take a wild-ass guess. Apple Computer will announce MacOS X For Intel will be FreeBSD-plus-Aqua. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 5 17:37:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8529237B66C for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 17:37:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-71-2.dialup.hiwaay.net [216.180.71.2]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e960av704598; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 19:36:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id e960Zda70130; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 19:35:39 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <200010060035.e960Zda70130@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: new netscape6 is awesome! In-reply-to: Message from Brett Glass of "Thu, 05 Oct 2000 01:44:10 MDT." <4.3.2.7.2.20001005013823.00c80840@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 19:35:39 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > The "What's Related" feature snitches on your browsing habits, > as does the "SmartDownload" feature. So, disconnect the machine > from the Net until you've turned these things off and reset the > start page to something other than Netscape's. If you have a > packet sniffer, you might want to watch for other spying activity > and block the relevant addresses. 4.75 does a name lookup even when starting with a blank page. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 5 18:20:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pike.osd.bsdi.com (pike.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86A2337B502 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 18:20:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from foo.osd.bsdi.com (root@foo.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.137]) by pike.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id e961KKi23588; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 18:20:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@foo.osd.bsdi.com) Received: (from jhb@localhost) by foo.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e961Huw42965; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 18:17:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <83889.970615131@winston.osd.bsdi.com> Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 18:17:56 -0700 (PDT) Organization: BSD, Inc. From: John Baldwin To: Jordan Hubbard , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/finger finger.c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 03-Oct-00 Jordan Hubbard wrote: > - Jordfan Cats writing your e-mail for you again? /me ducks -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.Baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 5 18:56: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBD8B37B502 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 18:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13hMk0-000FYq-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 02:56:04 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA55564 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 02:56:04 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 02:56:04 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: .net threat ? Message-ID: <20001006025604.C55421@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From what I have read lately, M$ just might be onto something with this .NET idea. According to an article on Oreillynet, they are changing their approach, and this time learning from some of their past mistakes. Does this have any great impact on the ongoing OS war? Any thoughts? jcm -- "I drank WHAT ?!" - Socrates To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 5 19: 8: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from soup.thpoon.com (cr103675-a.bloor1.on.wave.home.com [24.114.152.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9CE8C37B672 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 19:08:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 67829 invoked from network); 6 Oct 2000 02:08:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO tea.thpoon.com) (mail@192.168.1.2) by cr103675-a.bloor1.on.wave.home.com with SMTP; 6 Oct 2000 02:08:02 -0000 Received: from antipode by tea.thpoon.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 13hMvZ-0001Qq-00; Thu, 05 Oct 2000 22:08:01 -0400 To: torstenb@vmunix.org (Torsten Blum) Cc: dan@langille.org, 1mazda1 <1mazda1@phoenixdsl.com>, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CD writers - recommendations References: From: Arcady Genkin X-Face: 0=A/O5-+sE[Tf%X>rYr?Y5LD4,:^'jaJ!4jC&UR*ZrrK2>^`g22Qeb]!:d;}2YJ|Hq"LHdF OX`jWX|AT-WVFQ(TPhFVak)0nt$aEdlOq=1~D,:\z5QlVOrZ2(H,mKg=Xr|'VlHA="r Organization: thpoon.com Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 05 Oct 2000 22:08:01 -0400 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <87itr6zpq6.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Channel Islands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org torstenb@vmunix.org (Torsten Blum) writes: > Oh, and I saw that cdrecord 1.9 clains to support BURN proof[1], so buying a > newer Plextor drive probably is a good idea. > > [1] http://www.plextor.be/English/technical/burnproof.html This is very cool! Is this technology Plextor-specific or do any other drives use the burn proof? -- Arcady Genkin Don't read everything you believe. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 5 19:11:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from soup.thpoon.com (cr103675-a.bloor1.on.wave.home.com [24.114.152.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3DC4137B66C for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 19:11:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 67855 invoked from network); 6 Oct 2000 02:11:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO tea.thpoon.com) (mail@192.168.1.2) by cr103675-a.bloor1.on.wave.home.com with SMTP; 6 Oct 2000 02:11:31 -0000 Received: from antipode by tea.thpoon.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 13hMyx-0001R5-00 for ; Thu, 05 Oct 2000 22:11:31 -0400 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lucent modems question References: <20001004223929.B32669@hades.hell.gr> From: Arcady Genkin X-Face: 0=A/O5-+sE[Tf%X>rYr?Y5LD4,:^'jaJ!4jC&UR*ZrrK2>^`g22Qeb]!:d;}2YJ|Hq"LHdF OX`jWX|AT-WVFQ(TPhFVak)0nt$aEdlOq=1~D,:\z5QlVOrZ2(H,mKg=Xr|'VlHA="r Organization: thpoon.com Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 05 Oct 2000 22:11:31 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20001004223929.B32669@hades.hell.gr> Message-ID: <87em1uzpkc.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> Lines: 18 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Channel Islands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos Keramidas writes: > > Lucent seems to have released a winmodem driver for linux. > > Oh. Since this was brought up. Has anyone user such a beast on Linux. > I am just curious to see if the driver trying to cope with the crippled > Winmodem beast, is as resource hungry as it seems to be on Windows. One > would expect that emulating a "real" modem in the driver would cost a > few extra CPU cycles, or memory, or other system resources. I have it on my Thinkpad 240 laptop. In fact, this is the only reason keeping me from installing FreeBSD there. ;^( I have only used the modem to call in a BBS, but I haven't noticed any abnormalities with CPU load. -- Arcady Genkin Don't read everything you believe. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 5 19:26:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from onizuka.vmunix.org (onizuka.vmunix.org [194.221.152.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 140E037B66E for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 19:26:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (901 bytes) by onizuka.vmunix.org via sendmail with stdio (sender: ) (ident using unix) id for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 04:26:49 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: From: torstenb@vmunix.org (Torsten Blum) Subject: Re: CD writers - recommendations In-Reply-To: <87itr6zpq6.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> "from Arcady Genkin at Oct 5, 2000 10:08:01 pm" To: Arcady Genkin Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 04:26:49 +0200 (CEST) Cc: Torsten Blum , dan@langille.org, 1mazda1 <1mazda1@phoenixdsl.com>, chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL82 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Arcady Genkin wrote: [BURN proof] > > [1] http://www.plextor.be/English/technical/burnproof.html > > This is very cool! > Is this technology Plextor-specific or do any other drives use the > burn proof? Nope, ATMK is was developed by Sanya and Plextor just licenced it. -tb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 6 10:29: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (mta02-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A48D037B502 for ; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 10:29:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parish ([62.253.87.98]) by mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20001006182744.EDMM23965.mta02-svc.ntlworld.com@parish>; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 18:27:44 +0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e96HSnY01706; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 18:28:49 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 18:28:49 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: j mckitrick Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: .net threat ? Message-ID: <20001006182849.E252@parish> References: <20001006025604.C55421@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001006025604.C55421@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 02:56:04AM +0100 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 02:56:04AM +0100, j mckitrick wrote: > > >From what I have read lately, M$ just might be onto something with this .NET > idea. According to an article on Oreillynet, they are changing their > approach, and this time learning from some of their past mistakes. Does > this have any great impact on the ongoing OS war? Any thoughts? > Hmm, I don't know what .NET is (although I can guess) but your comment about "changing their approach, and this time learning from some of their past mistakes" is interesting. I've been on a (official M$) W2K course this week and it seems that they've finally realized that if they want to play on the 'net then they have to play by the established rules; TCP/IP is the default/preferred network protocol and DNS/BIND is the default/preferred name resolution protocol in W2K (WINS, NETBIOS, NETBUEI are still there but only for legacy clients, e.g. Win95), and Kerberos authentication (although they have slightly bastardized it by using an unused field without publishing it's use). I guess that they had expected the Microsoft Network to become bigger than the Internet (due to the sheer number of Windows users) and so could make their proprietary protocols the de facto standard, but since the Microsoft Network was such a flop they've had to re-think their strategy. They've also added some Unixisms as well; the 'runas' command (similar to su(1)), you can boot to a single-user command line, and you can mount disks (drive letters) on a directory a la mount(8) (although the dir *must* be empty, so no over-mounting). Don't get me wrong, it's still bloated fatware, but they finally seem to (maybe grudgingly) acknowledging that other OSen have some good features. > jcm > -- > "I drank WHAT ?!" - Socrates > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- 4.4 - The number of the Beastie ________________________________________________________________ 51.44°N FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org 2.057°W My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark mailto:marko@freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 6 12: 9:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 690C037B502; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 12:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA11561; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 12:07:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAfKaiCw; Fri Oct 6 12:07:27 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA20085; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 12:08:52 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200010061908.MAA20085@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: .net threat ? To: marko@FreeBSD.ORG (Mark Ovens) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 19:08:40 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org (j mckitrick), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20001006182849.E252@parish> from "Mark Ovens" at Oct 06, 2000 06:28:49 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > [ ... ] and Kerberos authentication (although they have slightly > bastardized it by using an unused field without publishing it's use). They used a reserved field in a way specifically noted as being incorrect usage of the field by the author of the field. To be exact, they store an MS cookie there that can not be used by a non-MS system, and can not be generated by a non-MS system. This is tantamount to storing an encrypted index key into the Domain controller credential database, such that clients with the key are treated differently (given additional services) from clients without the key (denied additional services). This means: o You can use an MS workstation as a kerberos client of MS kerberos, and get full service o You can use a MS workstation as a kerberos client of UNIX kerberos, and get decreased service o You can use an UNIX workstation as a kerberos client of MS kerberos, and get decreased service o You can use a UNIX workstation as a kerberos client of UNIX kerberos, and get decreased service In other words, they are locking up the ability to provide the domain controller associated services, and doing so in a standards violating way. This is different from merely "slighly bastardized", since if that were the case, one could choose to "slightly bastardize" UNIX kerberos clients and servers, and the problem would go away. As it sits, it's now just one more thing that SAMBA and kerberos people will have to reverse engineer, and given the bludgeon of money and the U.S. Civil court system (c.v. Microsoft v. Stacker) this work will have to take place outside the U.S. to be safe from litigation based supression of legally reverse engineered compatability code. > They've also added some Unixisms as well; the 'runas' command (similar to > su(1)), This is easy; I did this in NT 3.x using a program that called "impersonate()" before creating a task ("fork(); exec()" in UNIX parlance). > you can boot to a single-user command line, Not impossible in NT 3.x, either, just a pain. > and you can mount disks (drive letters) on a directory a la > mount(8) (although the dir *must* be empty, so no over-mounting). Trivial even in Windows 95, actually, by hooking IFSMgr calls. I wrote code to do this back in 1996. I suspect the "overmounting" prohibition came from the file handle conversion code, since this would fail, without some heroic measures, should a file be open in the subhierarchy you are mounting over. There are actually ways to work around this (I wrote that code, too, to permit relocation of data from the C: drive, where everything wants to install, in order to overcome space limitations; as far as the code was concerned, it still believed it was on the C: drive, when it was actually elsewhere). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 7 4:52:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from citusc17.usc.edu (citusc17.usc.edu [128.125.38.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A177A37B66C for ; Sat, 7 Oct 2000 04:52:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kris@localhost) by citusc17.usc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA15877; Sat, 7 Oct 2000 04:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 04:52:35 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: j mckitrick Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: .net threat ? Message-ID: <20001007045235.A15854@citusc17.usc.edu> References: <20001006025604.C55421@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001006025604.C55421@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 02:56:04AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 02:56:04AM +0100, j mckitrick wrote: > > >From what I have read lately, M$ just might be onto something with this .NET > idea. According to an article on Oreillynet, they are changing their > approach, and this time learning from some of their past mistakes. Does > this have any great impact on the ongoing OS war? Any thoughts? Yeah, stop being so eager to believe everything you read ;-) Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 7 4:57:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from citusc17.usc.edu (citusc17.usc.edu [128.125.38.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D384637B503 for ; Sat, 7 Oct 2000 04:57:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kris@localhost) by citusc17.usc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA15893; Sat, 7 Oct 2000 04:56:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 04:56:41 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Brett Glass Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Wes Peters , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: politeness Message-ID: <20001007045641.B15854@citusc17.usc.edu> References: <50956.970600554@critter> <4.3.2.7.2.20001003132247.043d11e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001003132247.043d11e0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, Oct 03, 2000 at 01:37:30PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Oct 03, 2000 at 01:37:30PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > >An ever increasing number of people *do* ask for you to be banned > >and/or filtered. > > Other than one flamer, you are the only one who is asking. Worse still, > you are going further and making threats. As I have already said, > this is inappropriate behavior for someone who claims to be worthy > of a leadership position. Sorry Brett, but Poul-Henning is correct here. He's seen the messages to -core from the user base asking for this, remember? Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 7 13:57:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB90E37B503 for ; Sat, 7 Oct 2000 13:57:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA09197; Sat, 7 Oct 2000 14:56:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001007145514.0473b100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 14:56:19 -0600 To: Kris Kennaway From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: politeness Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:56 AM 10/7/2000, Kris Kennaway wrote: >Sorry Brett, but Poul-Henning is correct here. He's seen the messages >to -core from the user base asking for this, remember? What "messages to -core?" What "user base?" Sorry, but if anyone takes issue with something I write but is too cowardly to tell me so -- and ESPECIALLY if he or she attempts to lobby behind my back to have me censored -- he or she is out of line and should not be indulged. Likewise, so long as I do not see any such communications I can only take the assertion that they exist as unsubstantiated rumor. Especially since PHK appears to have a grudge against me (for what reason I am not certain, since I have seen him at most once and then across a room). I'd hope that folks would rise above such petty bickering. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 7 14:29:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from apoq.skynet.be (apoq.skynet.be [195.238.2.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F84737B66C for ; Sat, 7 Oct 2000 14:29:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dialup650.brussels2.skynet.be [195.238.25.138]) by apoq.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B4EF9C52; Sat, 7 Oct 2000 23:29:19 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001007145514.0473b100@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001007145514.0473b100@localhost> Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 23:28:34 +0200 To: Brett Glass From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: politeness Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 2:56 PM -0600 2000/10/7, Brett Glass wrote: > Sorry, but if anyone takes issue with something I write but is > too cowardly to tell me so -- and ESPECIALLY if he or she attempts > to lobby behind my back to have me censored -- he or she is out of > line and should not be indulged. While I agree that people should be more forthcoming with their complaints, the reality of the situation is that when people perceive someone as being excessively combative and disruptive, they don't always directly confront the person in question. Sometimes, they feel that the best way to get results is to approach people in a position of authority and file their complaint with them. I haven't personally witnessed the complaints in this case, but I do have my own opinions of certain aspects of your personality, and I find that the statements from PHK sound credible. Regardless of what you may feel about him personally, I think that this is a situation where you at least have to give serious consideration to what he has said. He is a member of -core, and if he says that there have been lots of complaints about you, then I have to believe that there have been, and you need to seriously re-think where you are and where you want to go. I know that in the past I have said and done some things that have seriously ticked off Jordan, and I hope that over the years I'll be able to reverse the damage that I have done. If you want to positively contribute to the future of FreeBSD, I would encourage you to start trying to figure out what you've been doing wrong and what you can do to correct that. The problem didn't occur overnight, and it won't be fixed overnight. It's going to take a long time to get back to the point where most people feel like your contribution is a net positive. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 7 14:56:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A609C37B671 for ; Sat, 7 Oct 2000 14:56:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA09525; Sat, 7 Oct 2000 15:56:26 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001007153853.044e5e10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 15:56:17 -0600 To: Brad Knowles From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: politeness Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001007145514.0473b100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20001007145514.0473b100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:28 PM 10/7/2000, Brad Knowles wrote: > While I agree that people should be more forthcoming with their complaints, the reality of the situation is that when people perceive someone as being excessively combative and disruptive, they don't always directly confront the person in question. Sometimes, they feel that the best way to get results is to approach people in a position of authority and file their complaint with them. This is inappropriate, since it is an attempt to turn the person who happens to have control of the list into a censor. It is also fitting that anyone who is threatened by a harmful action such as censorship be able to confront his or her "accuser." This right is guaranteed by the US Constitution when one is dealing with the government, and it is only fair that it be the policy in public forums such as mailing lists. > I haven't personally witnessed the complaints in this case, but I do have my own opinions of certain aspects of your personality, and I find that the statements from PHK sound credible. We all take issue with parts of other people's personalities, and the civil and socially acceptable thing to do is be tolerant. I find many comments on these lists to be abrasive, but do not get "bent out of shape" or advocate censorship. > Regardless of what you may feel about him personally, I think that this is a situation where you at least have to give serious consideration to what he has said. I always consider what I write and how people react to it. However, if everyone refrained from posting because of one or two flamers' callous remarks, then such bullies would quickly take over the forum. This certainly wouldn't be fair nor would it be good for the list. [Snip] > I know that in the past I have said and done some things that have seriously ticked off Jordan, and I hope that over the years I'll be able to reverse the damage that I have done. You seem to be implying that saying something that ticks off Jordan is automatically damaging! I don't think that whether any one person is or isn't annoyed by a posting is a good criterion for judging its worth. I've seen Jordan fly off the handle about a posting (frequently not mine) and later say that he regrets having done so. >If you want to positively contribute to the future of FreeBSD, I would encourage you to start trying to figure out what you've been doing wrong Forgive me for saying so, but I don't think that not marching in lockstep with everyone else, or posting anything with which someone (whether on the core team or otherwise) might disagree, is "wrong." [Snip} --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 7 15:12:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from neo.skynet.be (neo.skynet.be [195.238.2.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C194037B66C for ; Sat, 7 Oct 2000 15:12:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dialup650.brussels2.skynet.be [195.238.25.138]) by neo.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38B896DEF; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 00:11:38 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001007153853.044e5e10@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001007145514.0473b100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20001007145514.0473b100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20001007153853.044e5e10@localhost> Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 00:11:11 +0200 To: Brett Glass From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: politeness Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:56 PM -0600 2000/10/7, Brett Glass wrote: > Forgive me for saying so, but I don't think that not marching in > lockstep with everyone else, or posting anything with which someone > (whether on the core team or otherwise) might disagree, is "wrong." You're welcome to feel and act in any way you feel appropriate. However, this does not change the fact that you appear to be dangerously close to being kicked off the FreeBSD mailing lists. Nor does it change the fact that if you want to prevent this from happening that you should sit down and seriously think about where you are, where you want to go, and how you want to get there. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 7 15:26:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from citusc17.usc.edu (citusc17.usc.edu [128.125.38.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0205737B66C for ; Sat, 7 Oct 2000 15:26:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kris@localhost) by citusc17.usc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA16665; Sat, 7 Oct 2000 15:27:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 15:27:01 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Brett Glass Cc: Kris Kennaway , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: politeness Message-ID: <20001007152701.B16631@citusc17.usc.edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001007145514.0473b100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001007145514.0473b100@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 02:56:19PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 02:56:19PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 05:56 AM 10/7/2000, Kris Kennaway wrote: > > >Sorry Brett, but Poul-Henning is correct here. He's seen the messages > >to -core from the user base asking for this, remember? > > What "messages to -core?" What "user base?" > > Sorry, but if anyone takes issue with something I write but is > too cowardly to tell me so -- and ESPECIALLY if he or she attempts > to lobby behind my back to have me censored -- he or she is out of > line and should not be indulged. The last time this came up I attempted to reason with you about it and you know full well that at least two people asked core for your removal. Hell, core even released a policy statement about it, which is certainly no mean feat. Don't play the innocent here, Brett - either your memory is very flawed, or you are choosing to ignore the evidence which has crossed your path. [ For those observers who have studied Brett, here we see the exercise of a favourite behavioural trait: the selective ignorance of past discussion to give himself a favourable debating position. ] Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 7 15:39:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94F6037B66D for ; Sat, 7 Oct 2000 15:39:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA09772; Sat, 7 Oct 2000 16:38:10 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001007163117.0460ecf0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 16:38:04 -0600 To: Kris Kennaway From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: politeness Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20001007152701.B16631@citusc17.usc.edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001007145514.0473b100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20001007145514.0473b100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:27 PM 10/7/2000, Kris Kennaway wrote: >The last time this came up I attempted to reason with you about it and >you know full well that at least two people asked core for your >removal. Two people did flame me during an earlier discussion. Their requests were not honored, and that was appropriate. If they were, it would have been an indication that all one needed to do to silence someone would be to flame, or gang up on, him or her. If the maintainer(s) of the lists remove me from them as the result of such anti-social behavior, it will reflect far more negatively on the project, and hence be more damaging, than anything I could possibly do or say. That's all I have to say about the issue. Please send serious responses via private mail, and flames to /dev/null. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 7 15:41:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [207.154.84.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3BD8137B503 for ; Sat, 7 Oct 2000 15:41:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 94616 invoked by uid 1142); 7 Oct 2000 22:41:43 -0000 Date: 7 Oct 2000 15:41:43 -0700 Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 15:39:44 -0700 From: Jason Evans To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: politeness Message-ID: <20001007153944.A460@canonware.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001007145514.0473b100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001007145514.0473b100@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 02:56:19PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 02:56:19PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > Sorry, but if anyone takes issue with something I write but is > too cowardly to tell me so -- and ESPECIALLY if he or she attempts > to lobby behind my back to have me censored -- he or she is out of > line and should not be indulged. > > Likewise, so long as I do not see any such communications I can > only take the assertion that they exist as unsubstantiated rumor. > Especially since PHK appears to have a grudge against me (for > what reason I am not certain, since I have seen him at most once > and then across a room). My procmail configuration is currently rather broken, and as a result, my normal filters are not in place. Thus, your email has reached me. Brett, you are the only individual whose email I have *ever* filtered to /dev/null. *Ever*. I have taken issue with a number of your emails in public and in private, and in every case, you have turned a blind eye and figured out various ways of contorting my email and interpreting it far outside the realm that reality allows mere mortals. Your ability to twist, ignore, and misinterpret astounds me. On a number of occasions, I've considered creating an annotated catalog of the ways you have disgraced yourself (and FreeBSD by forced association) so that I could refer others to it and hopefully lessen the damage you cause to the FreeBSD community. Normally, behavior such as yours wouldn't concern me, but you have made a strong effort to portray yourself as a voice that speaks for the FreeBSD community, and by doing so, you have caused significant damage to that community. In the end, I decided that the best course of action was to filter your email to /dev/null with extreme prejudice, and on a number of occasions I've advised others to do the same. Brett, you have managed to be a serious detriment to the FreeBSD community in my opinion, and in the opinion of many others with whom I have discussed your actions. There you have it, Brett, in no uncertain terms. If history is any indicator, you won't grasp how condemning this email is of your actions. Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 7 16: 5:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19C6C37B66C for ; Sat, 7 Oct 2000 16:05:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA09925; Sat, 7 Oct 2000 17:05:09 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001007165330.046fcea0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 17:05:00 -0600 To: Jason Evans From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: politeness Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20001007153944.A460@canonware.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001007145514.0473b100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20001007145514.0473b100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:41 PM 10/7/2000, Jason Evans wrote: >I have taken issue with a number of your emails in >public and in private, and in every case, you have turned a blind eye and >figured out various ways of contorting my email and interpreting it far >outside the realm that reality allows mere mortals. Jason: I have searched my archives and have found only two messages from me with "Jason Evans" or "jasone" in the To: field. One was public, the other private. In both cases, I PARTIALLY disagreed with you on issues involving advocacy and licensing. So? These are contentious issues and MANY people disagree on them. I understood and respected your opinion, though I begged to differ. And I think there was actually substantial common ground. If you'd like to resolve whatever differences you feel you have with me, and aren't simply interested in flaming and deriding me in public, please respond via private mail. Flames to /dev/null. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 7 16:31: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B40F237B503 for ; Sat, 7 Oct 2000 16:31:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA10095; Sat, 7 Oct 2000 17:29:38 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001007172420.044e5580@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 17:29:32 -0600 To: Kris Kennaway From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: politeness Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20001007152701.B16631@citusc17.usc.edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001007145514.0473b100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20001007145514.0473b100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org By the way, Kris, please note that in your message below you posted my PRIVATE mail to you, which was not addressed to the list so as not to clutter it, in a public forum. --Brett At 04:27 PM 10/7/2000, Kris Kennaway wrote: >On Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 02:56:19PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: >> At 05:56 AM 10/7/2000, Kris Kennaway wrote: >> >> >Sorry Brett, but Poul-Henning is correct here. He's seen the messages >> >to -core from the user base asking for this, remember? >> >> What "messages to -core?" What "user base?" >> >> Sorry, but if anyone takes issue with something I write but is >> too cowardly to tell me so -- and ESPECIALLY if he or she attempts >> to lobby behind my back to have me censored -- he or she is out of >> line and should not be indulged. > >The last time this came up I attempted to reason with you about it and >you know full well that at least two people asked core for your >removal. Hell, core even released a policy statement about it, which >is certainly no mean feat. Don't play the innocent here, Brett - >either your memory is very flawed, or you are choosing to ignore the >evidence which has crossed your path. > >[ For those observers who have studied Brett, here we see the exercise >of a favourite behavioural trait: the selective ignorance of past >discussion to give himself a favourable debating position. ] > >Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 7 16:35:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from citusc17.usc.edu (citusc17.usc.edu [128.125.38.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94FA137B503 for ; Sat, 7 Oct 2000 16:35:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kris@localhost) by citusc17.usc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA17075; Sat, 7 Oct 2000 16:36:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 16:36:15 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Brett Glass Cc: Kris Kennaway , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: politeness Message-ID: <20001007163615.A17042@citusc17.usc.edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001007145514.0473b100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20001007145514.0473b100@localhost> <20001007152701.B16631@citusc17.usc.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20001007172420.044e5580@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001007172420.044e5580@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 05:29:32PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 05:29:32PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > By the way, Kris, please note that in your message below > you posted my PRIVATE mail to you, which was not addressed to > the list so as not to clutter it, in a public forum. > > --Brett Sorry, but no: X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 14:56:19 -0600 To: Kris Kennaway From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: politeness Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG At 05:56 AM 10/7/2000, Kris Kennaway wrote: >Sorry Brett, but Poul-Henning is correct here. He's seen the messages >to -core from the user base asking for this, remember? What "messages to -core?" What "user base?" Sorry, but if anyone takes issue with something I write but is [...] Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 7 16:37:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6563F37B66C for ; Sat, 7 Oct 2000 16:37:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA10137; Sat, 7 Oct 2000 17:36:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001007173404.044e57c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 17:36:26 -0600 To: Kris Kennaway From: Brett Glass Subject: Oops -- Retraction Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001007172420.044e5580@localhost> References: <20001007152701.B16631@citusc17.usc.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20001007145514.0473b100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20001007145514.0473b100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just received a copy of the message to which I referred back from the FreeBSD server. It appears that, while I intended to take the discussion offline, that message DID get to the list. I apologize for accusing Kris of this breach of etiquette. --Brett At 05:29 PM 10/7/2000, I wrote: >By the way, Kris, please note that in your message below >you posted my PRIVATE mail to you, which was not addressed to >the list so as not to clutter it, in a public forum. > >--Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 7 18:13:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id A27C137B502; Sat, 7 Oct 2000 18:13:46 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: brett@lariat.org Cc: blk@skynet.be, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <4.3.2.7.2.20001007153853.044e5e10@localhost> (message from Brett Glass on Sat, 07 Oct 2000 15:56:17 -0600) Subject: Re: politeness Message-Id: <20001008011346.A27C137B502@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 18:13:46 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 > Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 15:56:17 -0600 > From: Brett Glass > Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG > > This is inappropriate, since it is an attempt to turn the person who > happens to have control of the list into a censor. It is also fitting > that anyone who is threatened by a harmful action such as censorship > be able to confront his or her "accuser." This right is guaranteed by > the US Constitution when one is dealing with the government, and it > is only fair that it be the policy in public forums such as mailing > lists. Brett, I have removed and filtered about half a dozen people from the lists over the last five or so years. The FreeBSD mailing lists are reserved for the use of the FreeBSD community. That community expresses its will via the core team, especially once the elections are completed in a few days. The community has the right to select its membership. If enough people call for the ouster of a single person. I will remove that person. I dont like doing it. I have done it before, and I will do it again, if necessary. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 7 19:43:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3E9337B502 for ; Sat, 7 Oct 2000 19:43:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13i6Qg-0006lP-00; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 03:43:10 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA81768; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 03:43:09 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 03:43:09 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Kris Kennaway Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: .net threat ? Message-ID: <20001008034309.A81741@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20001006025604.C55421@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20001007045235.A15854@citusc17.usc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20001007045235.A15854@citusc17.usc.edu>; from kris@citusc.usc.edu on Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 04:52:35AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 04:52:35AM -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote: | On Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 02:56:04AM +0100, j mckitrick wrote: | > | > >From what I have read lately, M$ just might be onto something with this .NET | > idea. According to an article on Oreillynet, they are changing their | > approach, and this time learning from some of their past mistakes. Does | > this have any great impact on the ongoing OS war? Any thoughts? | | Yeah, stop being so eager to believe everything you read ;-) I just like keeping tabs on the enemy. :) Besides, it seems M$ is starting to wise up now, and that is not a good thing. jcm -- "I drank WHAT ?!" - Socrates To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message