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From: Kris Kirby <kris@catonic.net>
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Subject: Traditional UN*X conventions (Or: Why not to login as root?)
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Lately I find myself pondering why or why not one is supposed to leave the
root account alone altogether, instead su(do)ing as necessary to
perform various tasks. Is there a series of texts out there that states
this and other traditional measures taken (perhaps with a historical or
logically documented process in regards to tracking break-ins)?

-----
Kris Kirby, KE4AHR          | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said.
<kris@nospam.catonic.net>   |    
-------------------------------------------------------
"Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony."



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Oct 15  8:13:30 2000
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I've been lurking, too and fearful of jumping in; FWIW
here's mine...

Doug Barton wrote:
> 
<snip>
>         No, they really don't. We have made huge progress during the last two
> years at making -questions a "kindler, gentler" place to ask even the
> most mundane question. And even though there are still the occasional
> boneheads, it is actually doing quite well, _especially_ considering the
> vast expansion of the freebsd userbase during the same period.

Sometimes what needs work is _gently_ telling those who post
an inappropriate question to -newbies that the question
needs to be on -questions. I've been using FreeBSD since
2.1.5 but still consider myself in some ways a newbie. I
follow -newbies because I find questions that I feel I can
help folks with. I tend to answer off-list (I know I
shouldn't) and try to gently encourage the poster to try
-questions and to explain the rationale behind the other
replies they've gotten that insist they've posted to the
_wrong_ list. 
> 
>         In short, there should be one place, and one place only that is the
> starting point for real questions. The meta-questions like, "I need to
> ask about hooping my frobnitz, but I'm not sure which list is the right
> one to ask on" are still on topic for -newbies,  even though that
> question could really be asked on -questions too.

I agree with and appreciate the one-place-only theory. With
FreeBSD I know I'm not getting some third- or fourth-hand
interpretation of what someone thinks should the the right
answer. That's why my Linux box is an experiment and
learning-tool and FreeBSD is my primary computer. I also
realize that this is exactly why I should _not_ answer the
questions I do off-list. It defeats the peer-review process
that makes open-source so powerful. I just hate to see
potential BSD users run off pointlessly.

Perhaps a person posting an inappropriately technical
question to -newbies should be congratulated on making that
first step towards the level of sophistication needed to
move to -questions. 

Pardon my prolixity. Thanks for listening.
-- 
------------------------
Chris Browning
brownicm@prokyon.com
------------------------


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Oct 15 16:22:58 2000
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Click here for Free Video!!
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Dear Sir/Madame=20
I am currently doing a project on vinegar for chemistry at school and =
would be most grateful if I could have a analytical list of the =
components of vinegar and also some information on how vinegar is made. =
I would be extremly grateful if this was to be done asap
Yours Sincerly=20
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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Oct 15 17:50:30 2000
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From: Gregory Sutter <gsutter@zer0.org>
To: Srimathi Weeraman <Srimathi@ukgateway.net>
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: your mail
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On 2000-10-16 00:21 +0100, Srimathi Weeraman <Srimathi@ukgateway.net> wrote:
>    Dear Sir/Madame
>    I am currently doing a project on vinegar for chemistry at school and
>    would be most grateful if I could have a analytical list of the
>    components of vinegar and also some information on how vinegar is
>    made. I would be extremly grateful if this was to be done asap
>    Yours Sincerly
>    Deshan Weeraman

I would be most grateful if you:

1.  Didn't spam.
2.  Knew how to use an encyclopedia.  Type "vinegar" into brittanica.com. 
3.  Did your own homework.  Most people have already gone through
    elementary school once, and have no need to repeat the work.

Thanks.  I'd be extremely grateful if you didn't reply.

Greg
-- 
Gregory S. Sutter                   I got a 1GHz Athlon for my girlfriend.
mailto:gsutter@zer0.org             Good trade!
http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ 


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Oct 16  9:19:50 2000
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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 09:19:03 -0700
From: Jeremy Lea <reg@freebsd.org>
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Subject: BSDCon Parties...
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Hi all,

Well, we've read all about the Con, but when are the good parties... 
Some of us can't make the event, but live in the area and would like to
meet some people!

See ya,
 -Jeremy

-- 
FreeBSD - Because the best things in life are free...
                                           http://www.freebsd.org/


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Oct 16 12:30:34 2000
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To: j mckitrick <jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org>
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: Cars compared to Windows
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On Friday, 13 October 2000 at 14:17:20 +0100, j mckitrick wrote:
>
> Thought you guys might like this, if you haven't seen it before.
> -------------------------------------------
>
> At a recent computer expo (COMDEX), Bill Gates compared the computer
> industry with the auto industry and stated: "If GM had kept up with
> technology like the computer industry has, we would all be driving $25.00
> dollar cars that got 1,000 miles to the gallon."

Hmm, it can't have been that recent.  I think I saw this one some
years ago.

> In response to Bill's comments, General Motors issued a press release (by
> Mr. Welch himself) stating: If General Motors had developed technology
> like Microsoft, we would all be driving cars with the following
> characteristics:
>
> ...
>
> 7. The oil, water, temperature and alternator warning lights would be
> replaced by a single "General Car Default" warning light.

Ah, that's a UNIX one.  From fortune:

  Ken Thompson has an automobile which he helped design.  Unlike most
  automobiles, it has neither speedometer, nor gas gage, nor any of the
  numerous idiot lights which plague the modern driver.  Rather, if the
  driver makes any mistake, a giant "?" lights up in the center of the
  dashboard.  "The experienced driver", he says, "will usually know
  what's wrong."

The reference, of course, was to ed(1).

Greg
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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Oct 16 12:32: 7 2000
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On Thursday, 12 October 2000 at  8:34:20 +0000, Rick Hamell wrote:
>
> 	FreeBSD-newbies needs to be removed. I've been on it since it was
> created and can say that it is not living up to it's orginal purpose. If I
> remeber right, and a quick check of the archives seems to confirm,
> -newbies was created only if no questions were asked there. In the last
> year or two it has been a low-traffic list. Most every post across it has
> either been a cross-post, OR a question! Despite my and several other's
> efforts to keep it on topic, and questions posted where they belong, it is
> somehow attracting questions. Many of which are not even close to being
> newbie questions!

Indeed.  I've been watching this with some concern.  A bit of
background: newbies arose from some discussions Sue Blake and I had
about traffic on -questions.  She voiced the opinion that the topics
were too intimidating for real newbies, and that we needed a different
list.  I disagreed, but in the end suggested we try it for a while.
In addition, I promised not to answer any questions on -newbies.  For
a while, every time somebody asked a technical question on the list,
Sue would get up and redirect them to -questions, but she hasn't been
doing that lately.


On Friday, 13 October 2000 at 10:47:21 +0000, David Johnson wrote:
> Rick Hamell wrote:
>>
>>         FreeBSD-newbies needs to be removed. I've been on it since it was
>> created and can say that it is not living up to it's orginal purpose. If I
>> remeber right, and a quick check of the archives seems to confirm,
>> -newbies was created only if no questions were asked there. In the last
>> year or two it has been a low-traffic list. Most every post across it has
>> either been a cross-post, OR a question!
>
> Recheck your archives. Questions are allowed, just not technical
> questions. Questions like "how to configure X" are a no-no, but
> questions like "what window managers should I check out" is okay.

Right, but the boundaries are fuzzy.  First question: Which wm.
Reply: fvwm2.  Next question: How to I get it to give focus to the
windows automatically?  See the problem?

> Perhaps the problem is that the name is wrong. In every other set of
> mailing lists, -newbies is for newbies with questions. Maybe the
> name -newbies-chat would indicate that the list is for newbies, yet
> not for questions...

That sounds reasonable.

Greg
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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Oct 16 13:26:46 2000
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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 13:39:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Jason C. Wells" <jcwells@nwlink.com>
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To: Kris Kirby <kris@catonic.net>
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Traditional UN*X conventions (Or: Why not to login as root?)
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On Sun, 15 Oct 2000, Kris Kirby wrote:

> Lately I find myself pondering why or why not one is supposed to leave the
> root account alone altogether, instead su(do)ing as necessary to
> perform various tasks. Is there a series of texts out there that states
> this and other traditional measures taken (perhaps with a historical or
> logically documented process in regards to tracking break-ins)?

Let's consider the following typo:

# cd /
# rm -rf /tmp/ *

Which the user intended to be:

# cd /
# rm -rf /tmp/*

If you are in fact root, then you are in fact very, very screwed if you
issue the typo.  In this case, not being root will save you from removing
every last file on every mounted disc. 

Not using root is a commonly held wisdom.  This tidbit is in lots of
different references.  A real good book for many tidbits of wisdom is
"Essential System Administration." 

Thank you,
Jason C. Wells



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Oct 16 13:30:24 2000
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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 15:30:16 -0500 (CDT)
From: David Scheidt <dscheidt@enteract.com>
To: Kris Kirby <kris@catonic.net>
Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Traditional UN*X conventions (Or: Why not to login as root?)
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On Sun, 15 Oct 2000, Kris Kirby wrote:

:
:Lately I find myself pondering why or why not one is supposed to leave the
:root account alone altogether, instead su(do)ing as necessary to
:perform various tasks. Is there a series of texts out there that states
:this and other traditional measures taken (perhaps with a historical or
:logically documented process in regards to tracking break-ins)?
:

It's much harder to shoot yourself in the foot if you aren't waving a loaded
gun at it all the time.  

% cd
% rm -rf * .bak

done as dms will annoy me and send me scurrying for the backup tapes or
disks.  Done as root, I'll be much more than annoyed.  I'll have users after
me!  And a wasted evening while I rebuild the system.  I don't do anything
as root, with the exception of user administration, and installing or
removing software.  


David





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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Oct 16 15:48:17 2000
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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 23:48:45 +0100
To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
From: David Goddard <goddard@acm.org>
Subject: Re: Traditional UN*X conventions (Or: Why not to login as
  root?)
Cc: David Scheidt <dscheidt@enteract.com>,
	Kris Kirby <kris@catonic.net>
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 .com>
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At 15:30 16/10/00 -0500, David Scheidt wrote:
...
>% cd
>% rm -rf * .bak

Actually, at the risk of being overly pedantic, on the FreeBSD systems that
I've seen, the above would only wipe out either /root or the home directory
of the user that su'd (depending on how things were set up), I think (but
I'm not about to go around trying it).

>done as dms will annoy me and send me scurrying for the backup tapes or
>disks.  Done as root, I'll be much more than annoyed.  I'll have users after
>me!  And a wasted evening while I rebuild the system.  I don't do anything
>as root, with the exception of user administration, and installing or
>removing software.  

Yeah, but I'm sure that Murphy's Law or one of its evil cousins means that
when you *do* make that typo, it'll be when you're logged on as root in
order to do something essential.  Personally, I like to have something like
this in my .cshrc file:

  if (${me} == 'root') then
        alias rm rm -i
        alias mv mv -i
        alias cp cp -i
  endif

It's not infallible (it won't protect you from wanton use of -f for
example), but it helps...

My own nightmare happened a while back was when I was logged onto a Solaris
box.  I wanted to change some file group ownerships, so happily typed
something like:

 $ cd /path/directory
 $ su
 Password:
 $ chgrp -R lusergroup *

Of course, on *this* box, as soon as I su'd, it changed my directory to /,
with obvious hilarious consequences (not).  There's nothing like spending
ages fixing your damage to educate you that it's generally a much better
idea to do
 $ somepotentiallybadcommand -R directory
rather than
 $ somepotentiallybadcommand -R *

:-(

Dave


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Oct 16 17:26:27 2000
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When creating new root. please help


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Oct 16 20:54:34 2000
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From: Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at>
To: "Jason C. Wells" <jcwells@nwlink.com>
Cc: Kris Kirby <kris@catonic.net>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Traditional UN*X conventions (Or: Why not to login as root?)
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"Jason C. Wells" <jcwells@nwlink.com> wrote:
>
>Let's consider the following typo:
>
># cd /
># rm -rf /tmp/ *
>
>Which the user intended to be:
>
># cd /
># rm -rf /tmp/*
>
>If you are in fact root, then you are in fact very, very screwed if you
>issue the typo.  In this case, not being root will save you from removing
>every last file on every mounted disc. 

Well, one usually spots the mistake and interrupts it fairly quickly.
There's /boot /bin /dev /etc before you get to anything important :-)
(One of the disadvantages of softupdates, however, is that it'll get
through those directories in the blink of an eye...)

I have managed to recover a machine that had crashed and destroyed
those directories. Recovering it was tricky, because of various
infelicities in the fixit CD and the difficulty of remounting /
read-write when /dev is missing. Oh, and init does interesting things
when /bin/sh is missing (it oscillates rapidly back-and-forth between
failing to start /etc/rc and failing to drop into single-user mode).

Tony.
-- 
en oeccget g mtcaa    f.a.n.finch
v spdlkishrhtewe y    dot@dotat.at
eatp o v eiti i d.    fanf@covalent.net


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Oct 16 20:57:12 2000
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To: Kris Kirby <kris@catonic.net>
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
From: David Kelly <dkelly@hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: Traditional UN*X conventions (Or: Why not to login as root?) 
In-reply-to: Message from Kris Kirby <kris@catonic.net> 
   of "Sun, 15 Oct 2000 07:46:19 -0000." <Pine.BSF.4.21.0010150739480.59649-100000@spaz.huntsvilleal.com> 
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Kris Kirby writes:
> 
> Lately I find myself pondering why or why not one is supposed to leave the
> root account alone altogether, instead su(do)ing as necessary to
> perform various tasks. Is there a series of texts out there that states
> this and other traditional measures taken (perhaps with a historical or
> logically documented process in regards to tracking break-ins)?

Rarely does a critical Unix system have a single sysop with the root 
password. If all behave and use their own account first then su into 
root as needed then 1) they can carry their own personal environment 
with them, and 2) there is some traceability as to who did it.

--
David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net
=====================================================================
The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its
capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system.




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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Oct 16 22:47: 2 2000
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From: Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr>
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: Oops!  This is being cross-posted.  Do we really need to post this in
: both of them lists?

On Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 01:26:08PM +1100, Greg Lehey wrote:
> On Thursday, 12 October 2000 at  8:34:20 +0000, Rick Hamell wrote:
> >
> > 	FreeBSD-newbies needs to be removed. I've been on it since it was
> > created and can say that it is not living up to it's orginal purpose. If I
> > remeber right, and a quick check of the archives seems to confirm,
> > -newbies was created only if no questions were asked there. In the last
> > year or two it has been a low-traffic list. Most every post across it has
> > either been a cross-post, OR a question! Despite my and several other's
> > efforts to keep it on topic, and questions posted where they belong, it is
> > somehow attracting questions. Many of which are not even close to being
> > newbie questions!
> 
> Indeed.  I've been watching this with some concern.  A bit of
> background: newbies arose from some discussions Sue Blake and I had
> about traffic on -questions.  She voiced the opinion that the topics
> were too intimidating for real newbies, and that we needed a different
> list.  I disagreed, but in the end suggested we try it for a while.
> In addition, I promised not to answer any questions on -newbies.  For
> a while, every time somebody asked a technical question on the list,
> Sue would get up and redirect them to -questions, but she hasn't been
> doing that lately.

I started working with FreeBSD and reading the lists around August 1999,
which means I am a newbie in many ways, the same way I am not a newbie
in other ways.

After hanging around for a while without posting anything, I saw a lot
of posting that were in short "you should not post questions here,
because -questions is made for exactly this kind of thing".  I have also
seen people answer questions.  In an effort to get the best of both
worlds, I tried to come up with a combination of the two, and I ended up
posting replies to questions posted in here that include some references
that will get the newbie in question started, plus a nice and kind
warning that they should post questions to that `other' list from now on.

I am probably acting in violation of the list charters, but I can still
understand why someone would post a newbie-question to a list called
-newbies.  I am still unsure if I (or anyone else on -newbies, for that
matter) should send newbies asking technical questions away, without at
least a reference to get them on their way.

I do agree, however, with those who have pointed out that having a
single list where "technical questions are asked" is a good thing.  But
then again, the mailing list search interface in freebsd.org can search
in more than one list at once.  Ah well.  I probably sound kind of
confused already.

-- 
Giorgos Keramidas, <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr>
For my public pgp2 key: finger -l keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Oct 16 22:51:45 2000
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From: Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr>
To: David Scheidt <dscheidt@enteract.com>
Cc: Kris Kirby <kris@catonic.net>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Traditional UN*X conventions (Or: Why not to login as root?)
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On Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 03:30:16PM -0500, David Scheidt wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Oct 2000, Kris Kirby wrote:
> 
> It's much harder to shoot yourself in the foot if you aren't waving a
> loaded gun at it all the time.
>
> % cd rm -rf * .bak
>
> done as dms will annoy me and send me scurrying for the backup tapes
> or disks.  Done as root, I'll be much more than annoyed.  I'll have
> users after me!  And a wasted evening while I rebuild the system.  I
> don't do anything as root, with the exception of user administration,
> and installing or removing software.

...and reading the logs, I would add :-)

A very informative post there, David.  I have to admit that I laughed
my stomach out when I remembered running something similar like root,
namely:

    % rm -fr * ~

Certainly one of the funniest things you can run when your current
working directory is / and you are logged in as root.  This is probably
why I customarily use find(1) now, with xargs, and after I carefully
check the output of find, only then I append the required 'xargs rm' to
remove files.

Ah well, rusty old habbits of a silly user who's afraid of his own guns.


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Oct 16 23: 1: 4 2000
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At last year's FreeBSDCon, some of the attendees mentioned the possibility 
of jam sessions or similar events. Is any such thing planned for this 
year's BSDCon?

--Brett Glass



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Oct 17  9:12:29 2000
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From: Mike Cummings <mook@drizzle.com>
To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Traditional UN*X conventions (Or: Why not to login as  root?)
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On Mon, 16 Oct 2000, David Goddard wrote:

> My own nightmare happened a while back was when I was logged onto a Solaris
> box.  I wanted to change some file group ownerships, so happily typed
> something like:
> 
>  $ cd /path/directory
>  $ su
>  Password:
>  $ chgrp -R lusergroup *
> 
> Of course, on *this* box, as soon as I su'd, it changed my directory to /,
> with obvious hilarious consequences (not).  There's nothing like spending
> ages fixing your damage to educate you that it's generally a much better
> idea to do
>  $ somepotentiallybadcommand -R directory
> rather than
>  $ somepotentiallybadcommand -R *

I think we've all done stuff like that. It's so *easy* to do. I'm lucky
in that the time I nuked my system with a careless command, it was just my
own box and not a shared system.

My strategy for preventing these gaffes, in addition to using su and
rarely, if ever, actually logging in as root, are a holdover from playing
in chess tournaments. In competitive chess, once you touch a piece, you
have to move it. This means you need to be *certain* of the move you want
to make before you touch anything. You also need to do some routine
checking to assure you aren't doing something stupid. I started doing the
same thing when running as root:

* Before doing anything, do a pwd to make sure you're where you think you
are. Do this before any command that changes anything.
* Type the command, but don't hit return.
* Literally sit on your hands and stare at the command line. Make sure
there are no typos.
* Look at it again.
* (optional) Ask yourself, "Is this my final answer?"
* Then, and only then, hit return.

It's slow and inefficient. It makes you feel silly sometimes. But it's so
much better than cleaning up a trashed filesystem. So is chewing aspirin,
horseradish, and tinfoil at the same time.

And while it's tempting to skip all this rigamarole most of the time
because "I'm just doing something simple," you need to be anal about it
and make it a habit. Even so, it's been my experience that most new
sysadmins (or workstation admin, anyone with the dizzying power of
root) poo-poo this advice. The ones that follow it are the ones who've
been burned before.

,-----------------------------------------------------------------------------.
>        Mike Cummings       |      "If you're not part of the solution,      <
>      mook@drizzle.com      |         you're part of the precipitate."       <
>        ICQ #34152632       |                 --Steven Wright                <
`-----------------------------------------------------------------------------'



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Subject: Re: Traditional UN*X conventions (Or: Why not to login as root?)
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On Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:39:44PM -0700, Jason C. Wells wrote:
> # rm -rf /tmp/ *

Some years ago there was a news article posted which asked for examples
of UNIX console accidents.  The requestor was somebody giving a talk who
wanted a few snappy examples to open with.

The thread developed into hundreds of true "I screwed my system like
this ...." confessions.  Some were obvious.  Some subtle.  Most
instructive.  Many hilarious (8-)

I used to have them all archived, but have mislaid them.  If anybody
still has a set, I'd appreciate being mailed them.

-- 
Adrian Wontroba


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Oct 18 11:21:28 2000
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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 18:21:10 +0000
From: Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at>
To: Adrian Wontroba <aw1@stade.co.uk>
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Traditional UN*X conventions (Or: Why not to login as root?)
Message-ID: <20001018182110.J3582@hand.dotat.at>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0010150739480.59649-100000@spaz.huntsvilleal.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.1001016133315.4098A-100000@utah> <20001018074155.B13296@titus.stade.co.uk>
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Adrian Wontroba <aw1@stade.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Some years ago there was a news article posted which asked for examples
>of UNIX console accidents.  The requestor was somebody giving a talk who
>wanted a few snappy examples to open with.
>
>I used to have them all archived, but have mislaid them.  If anybody
>still has a set, I'd appreciate being mailed them.

http://www-uxsup.csx.cam.ac.uk/misc/horror.txt

Tony.
-- 
en oeccget g mtcaa    f.a.n.finch
v spdlkishrhtewe y    dot@dotat.at
eatp o v eiti i d.    fanf@covalent.net


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Oct 18 18:22: 0 2000
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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 02:20:13 +0100
From: Adrian Wontroba <aw1@stade.co.uk>
To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Traditional UN*X conventions (Or: Why not to login as root?)
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On Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 06:21:10PM +0000, Tony Finch wrote:
> http://www-uxsup.csx.cam.ac.uk/misc/horror.txt

Thanks.  Those are the "rm -rf /" horror stories I was looking for.

-- 
Adrian Wontroba


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Oct 18 18:52:46 2000
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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 21:52:32 -0400
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Subject: Re: Traditional UN*X conventions (Or: Why not to login as root?)
References: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0010150739480.59649-100000@spaz.huntsvilleal.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.1001016133315.4098A-100000@utah> <20001017035437.B537@hand.dotat.at>
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Tony Finch wrote:
> 
> "Jason C. Wells" <jcwells@nwlink.com> wrote:
> >
> >Let's consider the following typo:
> >

[snip]

> 
> Well, one usually spots the mistake and interrupts it fairly quickly.
> There's /boot /bin /dev /etc before you get to anything important :-)
> (One of the disadvantages of softupdates, however, is that it'll get
> through those directories in the blink of an eye...)
> 

[snip]

Been there, done that. I was trying to find and remove '*.core' but I
must have typed '*,core' [note comma]. Finally cought on when I got
error message '/dev is a directory'. Oh well I needed to upgrade to FBSD
4.1 anyway!

-- 
P. Murphy
Home: Lat 43.5584 Long -79.6502
Work: Lat 43.4277 Long -79.7077


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Oct 18 21:40:10 2000
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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 06:39:59 +0200
From: Neil Blakey-Milner <nbm@mithrandr.moria.org>
To: Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>
Cc: Laurence Berland <stuyman@confusion.net>, chat@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: Starting to code
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[ -hackers => -chat ]

On Wed 2000-10-18 (12:23), Wes Peters wrote:
> Laurence Berland wrote:
> > 
> > Wes Peters wrote:
> > >
> > > Laurence Berland wrote:
> > > >
> > > > What's a good place to start if you're a university student with limited
> > > > hardware who wants to jump in and get going with the FreeBSD code.
> > > > Right now I've got a PPro 200 with 32 MB of ram and lots of disk space
> > > > (~50 gigs).  10 gigs or so is used by FreeBSD-Stable.  I'm thinking of
> > > > tossing Current on also, and maybe making the cvs repo a separate
> > > > partition so I can share it between current and stable.
> > >
> > > I love it when people call a PPro 200 with 32 MB "limited hardware".  My
> > > first Free/NetBSD machine was a 386/40 with 8MB RAM and a 340 MB disk, and
> > > it was state of the art except for lack of a CD-ROM drive.
> > >
> > I thought it was more than fast enough, and for most things it is, but
> > KDE manages to crawl nonetheless...
> 
> WindowMaker.  ;^)

I've recently discovered pwm, and I must say I can't imagine going back
to anything else.

The key feature is windows that share a common frame.  I have three
Eterms connected to the same frame with tabs at the top of the frame to
choose the Eterm I want to see.

This works even better for Netscape - I have about 12 or so Netscapes
connected in one frame, and I just use meta-W to close ones I'm finished
with and meta-N to add a new Netscape to the frame.  No new windows
rushing to the top in some weird place - all Netscape windows share the
same mostly-maximised frame.  I can shortcut with ctrl-shift-x where x
is a single numeral to the number of the tab, or use ctrl-shift-N and
ctrl-shift-P to move to the next and previous tabs respectively.
Netscape even seems to crash less, but that's probably just wishful
thinking.

It _is_ chewing a whole 1.7 megs SIZE and 1.3 RES, though.  Bad bad pwm,
with quite a few frames and a number of tabs in each, all over about 6
workspaces.  And I haven't manage to crash it yet, so I'm quite happy.

Check out ports/x11-wm/pwm sometime.  See the home page
http://www.students.tut.fi/~tuomov/pwm/ for what passes for "themes". (:

End of advertisement.

Neil
-- 
Neil Blakey-Milner
nbm@mithrandr.moria.org


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Oct 18 21:59:32 2000
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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 23:59:52 -0500
From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" <n@nectar.com>
To: Paul Murphy <pnmurphy@home.com>
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Traditional UN*X conventions (Or: Why not to login as root?)
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On Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 09:52:32PM -0400, Paul Murphy wrote:
> Been there, done that. I was trying to find and remove '*.core' but I
> must have typed '*,core' [note comma]. 

More likely `rm *;core'.
-- 
Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / jvidrine@verio.net / nectar@FreeBSD.org


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Oct 19  6:29: 1 2000
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From: Rahul Siddharthan <rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in>
To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" <n@nectar.com>
Cc: Paul Murphy <pnmurphy@home.com>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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A different sort of root screwup story:
Being used to the "killall" command in FreeBSD and Linux, when I
wanted to kill some process (may have been sendmail) on a Digital
Unix machine I happily typed "killall -TERM sendmail" as root,
and the machine basically locked up and the only thing to do was
reboot the machine...  Nothing got damaged, but someone who'd been
running a long simulation was pretty unhappy...

The worst part is that the killall manpage (on linux and freebsd)
*warns* against this:

       Be warned that  typing  killall  name  may  not  have  the
       desired  effect on non-Linux systems, especially when done
       by a privileged user.

(The above was taken from a FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE manpage.  If it hasn't
been done already, maybe the "non-linux" reference should be modified
a bit?  I don't have access to a newer release of FreeBSD to check.)

I've been quiet on the list because I've been busy with other things,
and have moved halfway around the world (to Paris), and no longer have
administrative access on a local FreeBSD machine.  That may change,
but not anytime soon.  Any FreeBSD users located near me?  My French
is pretty bad, but improving slowly...

Rahul.


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Oct 19  7:49:56 2000
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From: Ade Lovett <ade@FreeBSD.org>
To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" <n@nectar.com>,
	Trevor Johnson <trevor@FreeBSD.org>, cvs-committers@FreeBSD.org,
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On Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 11:49:20PM -0500, Jacques A. Vidrine wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 09:29:41PM -0700, Trevor Johnson wrote:
> >   Add GNU sh-utils 2.0, enhanced versions of yes, true, pwd, and so
> 
> How the hell does one `enhance' true?   Built-in mail reader?

No, you're thinking of the enhanced 'yes'.   The enhanced 'true' is
actually a full-blown editor with an optional (but compiled by
default) yes-mode which gives you root without the need for that
horrible 'su' command.

Copy/followups redirected to -chat

-aDe

-- 
Ade Lovett, Austin, TX.			ade@FreeBSD.org
FreeBSD: The Power to Serve		http://www.FreeBSD.org/


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Oct 19 11:30:54 2000
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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 14:30:45 -0400
From: Christopher Masto <chris@netmonger.net>
To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Traditional UN*X conventions (Or: Why not to login as root?)
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On Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 09:52:32PM -0400, Paul Murphy wrote:
> Been there, done that. I was trying to find and remove '*.core' but I
> must have typed '*,core' [note comma]. Finally cought on when I got
> error message '/dev is a directory'. Oh well I needed to upgrade to FBSD
> 4.1 anyway!

I'm a "sudo" style person, myself.  My favorite mistake, which I have
made at least twice, is along the lines of:

$ cd /etc
$ something_clever > passwd-new
$ sudo mv passwd passwd-old
$ sudo mv passwd-new passwd
who the hell are you?

That can be "non-trivial" to fix without a reboot. :-)
-- 
Christopher Masto         Senior Network Monkey      NetMonger Communications
chris@netmonger.net        info@netmonger.net        http://www.netmonger.net

Free yourself, free your machine, free the daemon -- http://www.freebsd.org/


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Oct 19 13: 0:21 2000
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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 20:59:33 +0100
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Cc: "Jacques A. Vidrine" <n@nectar.com>,
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Subject: Re: Traditional UN*X conventions (Or: Why not to login as root?)
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References: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0010150739480.59649-100000@spaz.huntsvilleal.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.1001016133315.4098A-100000@utah> <20001017035437.B537@hand.dotat.at> <39EE53E0.AC0226FA@home.com> <20001018235952.E470@ophelia.nectar.com> <20001019152851.A15700@lpt.ens.fr>
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On Thu, Oct 19, 2000 at 03:28:51PM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote:

[snip]

> The worst part is that the killall manpage (on linux and freebsd)
> *warns* against this:
> 
>        Be warned that  typing  killall  name  may  not  have  the
>        desired  effect on non-Linux systems, especially when done
>        by a privileged user.
> 
> (The above was taken from a FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE manpage.  If it hasn't
> been done already, maybe the "non-linux" reference should be modified
> a bit?  I don't have access to a newer release of FreeBSD to check.)
> 

It's not there in 4-STABLE :)

-- 
		4.4 - The number of the Beastie
________________________________________________________________
51.44°N  FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org
2.057°W  My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark
mailto:marko@freebsd.org                http://www.radan.com



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Oct 19 13:29:45 2000
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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 21:28:59 +0100
From: Mark Ovens <marko@freebsd.org>
To: Adrian Wontroba <aw1@stade.co.uk>
Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Traditional UN*X conventions (Or: Why not to login as root?)
Message-ID: <20001019212859.B255@parish>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0010150739480.59649-100000@spaz.huntsvilleal.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.1001016133315.4098A-100000@utah> <20001018074155.B13296@titus.stade.co.uk> <20001018182110.J3582@hand.dotat.at> <20001019022013.A91370@titus.stade.co.uk>
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On Thu, Oct 19, 2000 at 02:20:13AM +0100, Adrian Wontroba wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 06:21:10PM +0000, Tony Finch wrote:
> > http://www-uxsup.csx.cam.ac.uk/misc/horror.txt
> 
> Thanks.  Those are the "rm -rf /" horror stories I was looking for.
> 

ROFL. It's not just sys-admins though is it? Many of our smaller customers
only had a couple of Suns running the CAD system, so the users themselves
knew the root password (or there was no root password). Our update tapes
used to check for disk space and, if it was found to be insufficient,
printed a message telling them to 'phone the helpdesk for assistance in
creating enough space.

Of course there were always those who knew better......like the guy who
found "2 massive files" called vmunix and vmunix.orig (we had to patch
SunOS 4.1 kernels) and, as they appeared not to be used(!), rm(1)'d them -
if only SunOS had chflags(1). The really amusing thing here is that it was
only /usr that was short of space.

Then there was someone who found hundreds of 0 byte files in /dev and,
you've guessed it, rm(1) again. Quite how he thought removing 0 byte files
would create more disk space is anyones guess (I know it would release
512-bytes per inode, but anyone who doesn't know what /dev contains is
highly unlikely to know what inodes are, or how much space they use).

And now that everyone is downgrading to NT.......

> -- 
> Adrian Wontroba
> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message

-- 
		4.4 - The number of the Beastie
________________________________________________________________
51.44°N  FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org
2.057°W  My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark
mailto:marko@freebsd.org                http://www.radan.com



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Oct 19 13:39:26 2000
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To: Mark Ovens <marko@FreeBSD.ORG>
Cc: Adrian Wontroba <aw1@stade.co.uk>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Traditional UN*X conventions (Or: Why not to login as root?)
References: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0010150739480.59649-100000@spaz.huntsvilleal.com> <Pine.SOL.3.96.1001016133315.4098A-100000@utah> <20001018074155.B13296@titus.stade.co.uk> <20001018182110.J3582@hand.dotat.at> <20001019022013.A91370@titus.stade.co.uk> <20001019212859.B255@parish>
From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav <des@ofug.org>
Date: 19 Oct 2000 22:39:21 +0200
In-Reply-To: Mark Ovens's message of "Thu, 19 Oct 2000 21:28:59 +0100"
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Mark Ovens <marko@FreeBSD.ORG> writes:
> Then there was someone who found hundreds of 0 byte files in /dev and,
> you've guessed it, rm(1) again. Quite how he thought removing 0 byte files
> would create more disk space is anyones guess (I know it would release
> 512-bytes per inode, but anyone who doesn't know what /dev contains is
> highly unlikely to know what inodes are, or how much space they use).

Device nodes don't even take up inodes, just directory space.

DES
-- 
Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Oct 19 13:40:16 2000
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From: Rick Hamell <hamellr@heorot.1nova.com>
To: Mark Ovens <marko@freebsd.org>
Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Traditional UN*X conventions (Or: Why not to login as root?)
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> Then there was someone who found hundreds of 0 byte files in /dev and,
> you've guessed it, rm(1) again. Quite how he thought removing 0 byte files
> would create more disk space is anyones guess (I know it would release
> 512-bytes per inode, but anyone who doesn't know what /dev contains is
> highly unlikely to know what inodes are, or how much space they use).
> 
> And now that everyone is downgrading to NT.......

	Yeah... NT has all those useless .vxd and .dll files... remove all
those and you have tons of space! :0

					Rick

*******************************************************************
Rick's FreeBSD Web page http://heorot.1nova.com/freebsd
Ace Logan's Hardware Guide http://www.shatteredcrystal.net/hardware
***FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! http://www.freebsd.org



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Oct 19 15:39:12 2000
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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 17:38:48 -0500
From: Will Andrews <will@csociety.purdue.edu>
To: chat@FreeBSD.org, plug@csociety.purdue.edu
Cc: Frank Andrews <andrews@MillerCanfield.com>,
	Daniel Kim <dk@omnia.qwarp.com>,
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Hi all,

	I've posted images for Wednesday at BSDCon.  You can check them out
at http://people.FreeBSD.org/~will/bsdcon/.

Unfortunately I didn't do very well with keeping the camera still while taking
most of my pictures, so the 25 or so I took were cut down to about 7, and even
some of these are blurry too.  :-)

-- 
Will Andrews <will@physics.purdue.edu> <will@FreeBSD.org>


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Oct 19 22:28:29 2000
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <200010200528.WAA10102@usr09.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Traditional UN*X conventions (Or: Why not to login as root?)
To: des@ofug.org (Dag-Erling Smorgrav)
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 05:28:11 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: marko@FreeBSD.ORG (Mark Ovens),
	aw1@stade.co.uk (Adrian Wontroba), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <xzpr95cd0qu.fsf@flood.ping.uio.no> from "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" at Oct 19, 2000 10:39:21 PM
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> > Then there was someone who found hundreds of 0 byte files in /dev and,
> > you've guessed it, rm(1) again. Quite how he thought removing 0 byte files
> > would create more disk space is anyones guess (I know it would release
> > 512-bytes per inode, but anyone who doesn't know what /dev contains is
> > highly unlikely to know what inodes are, or how much space they use).
> 
> Device nodes don't even take up inodes, just directory space.

Try an "ls -li" in /dev.

You have to have an inode to support hard links and device
ownership; or at least a vnode, and if we're not talking about
devfs, that means the backing object is an inode.

I think you are thinking of symlinks?


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct 20  2:44:44 2000
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Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 02:44:31 -0700
From: "Crist J . Clark" <cjclark@reflexnet.net>
To: chat@freebsd.org
Subject: BSDCon Friday Night?
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I've been at the SANS Conference in Monterey all week. Even though I
have been staying at the Hyatt, I have only met up with *BSD people
who are attending SANS. Anything going on Friday night? I still will
be around for Friday and Saturday. The SANS people I was hanging with
tonight lamed out and we didn't find anything interesting. Anyone up
for pulling together a loose collection to take over a bar or pub 
tomorrow? 
-- 
Crist J. Clark                           cjclark@alum.mit.edu


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct 20  3:53:23 2000
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Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 12:53:17 +0200
From: Rahul Siddharthan <rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in>
To: Mark Ovens <marko@freebsd.org>
Cc: "Jacques A. Vidrine" <n@nectar.com>,
	Paul Murphy <pnmurphy@home.com>, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Traditional UN*X conventions (Or: Why not to login as root?)
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Mark Ovens said on Oct 19, 2000 at 20:59:33:
> On Thu, Oct 19, 2000 at 03:28:51PM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > The worst part is that the killall manpage (on linux and freebsd)
> > *warns* against this:
> > 
> >        Be warned that  typing  killall  name  may  not  have  the
> >        desired  effect on non-Linux systems, especially when done
> >        by a privileged user.
> > 
> > (The above was taken from a FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE manpage.  If it hasn't
> > been done already, maybe the "non-linux" reference should be modified
> > a bit?  I don't have access to a newer release of FreeBSD to check.)
> > 
> 
> It's not there in 4-STABLE :)

Actually, it's funny but it's not there on the 3.4 machine I was using
earlier.  And that man page is labelled FreeBSD 2.2 from 1995...

Sorry about that.  I don't know the history of the system I'm
currently using, but it seems strange that the admin would replace
a freebsd manpage with a linux one.  (The other manpages do say
FreeBSD Manual...)

R.



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct 20 12:57:27 2000
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Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 14:57:16 -0500
From: Will Andrews <will@csociety.purdue.edu>
To: chat@FreeBSD.org
Cc: Frank Andrews <andrews@millercanfield.com>
Subject: More BSDCon pics
Message-ID: <20001020145716.B14799@csociety.ecn.purdue.edu>
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Hi all,

Just letting you know my BSDCon pics site has been updated (although this
was about 12 hours ago).

http://people.FreeBSD.org/~will/bsdcon/

28 new images, and a much smaller number of blurry ones.  By the way, Kris
Kennaway is not allowed to view these images.  Do not let him see it, or
he is entitled to another of my famous middle fingers.

;-)

-- 
Will Andrews <will@physics.purdue.edu>


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct 20 18: 2: 0 2000
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On Thu, Oct 19, 2000 at 05:38:48PM -0500, Will Andrews wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> 	I've posted images for Wednesday at BSDCon.  You can check them out
> at http://people.FreeBSD.org/~will/bsdcon/.
> 
> Unfortunately I didn't do very well with keeping the camera still while
> taking most of my pictures, 

Best stay off the beer then :)

> so the 25 or so I took were cut down to about
> 7, and even some of these are blurry too. :-)
> 
> -- 
> Will Andrews <will@physics.purdue.edu> <will@FreeBSD.org>
> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
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-- 
		4.4 - The number of the Beastie
________________________________________________________________
51.44°N  FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org
2.057°W  My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark
mailto:marko@freebsd.org                http://www.radan.com



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Oct 20 19:55:45 2000
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From: John Reynolds <jjreynold@home.com>
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Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 19:55:43 -0700 (MST)
To: chat@freebsd.org
Subject: oh, what gives with this???
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This seems a little hard to swallow ... I click on a "video" link after looking
at some stock quotes off Yahoo, thinking "cool, Real Video" (or something else
which has a Unix codec). Then, I'm greeted with this smug dialog box:

 Sorry! Yahoo! FinanceVision is supported only under Windows operating systems.

FreeBSD runs the bloody place and they can't accomodate it for the end user?

Gimme a break ...

<now back to our regularly scheduled hack>

-- 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
John Reynolds         Chandler Capabilities Engineering, CDS, Intel Corporation
jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com  My opinions are mine, not Intel's. Running
jjreynold@home.com          FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE. FreeBSD: The Power to Serve.
http://members.home.com/jjreynold/  Come join us!!! @ http://www.FreeBSD.org/
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct 21  8:31:10 2000
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From: rage <rage@superconductor.rush.net>
To: John Reynolds <jjreynold@home.com>
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Subject: Re: oh, what gives with this???
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why do yu think we affectionately call it 'Winblows' ? :P


On Fri, 20 Oct 2000, John Reynolds wrote:

> 
> This seems a little hard to swallow ... I click on a "video" link after looking
> at some stock quotes off Yahoo, thinking "cool, Real Video" (or something else
> which has a Unix codec). Then, I'm greeted with this smug dialog box:
> 
>  Sorry! Yahoo! FinanceVision is supported only under Windows operating systems.
> 
> FreeBSD runs the bloody place and they can't accomodate it for the end user?
> 
> Gimme a break ...
> 
> <now back to our regularly scheduled hack>
> 
> -- 
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> John Reynolds         Chandler Capabilities Engineering, CDS, Intel Corporation
> jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com  My opinions are mine, not Intel's. Running
> jjreynold@home.com          FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE. FreeBSD: The Power to Serve.
> http://members.home.com/jjreynold/  Come join us!!! @ http://www.FreeBSD.org/
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message
> 



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Oct 21 21:25:55 2000
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Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 22:25:51 -0600 (MDT)
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
Message-Id: <200010220425.WAA44388@harmony.village.org>
To: chat@freebsd.org
Subject: boundage bsd daemon image
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Does anybody have a pointer to the "Only way to secure the BSD system"
shirt that showed up from time to time.  I think it was a DEFCON image,
but not the separating the men from boys defcom shirt mike smith was wearking.

Please CC me as I'm not on chat.  Thanks much

Warner


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