From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 19 1:21:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 905EA37B4C5 for ; Sun, 19 Nov 2000 01:21:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah (jcwells@utah.nwlink.com [209.20.130.41]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA20861; Sun, 19 Nov 2000 01:21:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 01:35:18 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcwells@utah To: Kris Kirby Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 1RU kits / servers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 19 Nov 2000, Kris Kirby wrote: > I'm looking for leads into Celeron/Pentium III-based 1RU rack > servers. Kits, cases, or entire servers. Pricing, specs, and store > locations would help as well. Dell has one. So does IBM. I believe you can purchase 1U rack cases from intel under the auspices of some sort of "telco" market-ising. (I saw some at a client's once. I remarked that I did not know that intel did cases.) There are many case vendors on the net. I know nothing of any particular brand off hand. (BTW, Both Dell and IBM have a habit of making their well equipped towers a major PITA to fit in racks nicely. What gives?) Thank you, Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 19 3:33:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from spammie.svbug.com (mg128-012.ricochet.net [204.179.128.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 818E237B479; Sun, 19 Nov 2000 03:33:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from spammie.svbug.com (localhost.mozie.org [127.0.0.1]) by spammie.svbug.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA03153; Sun, 19 Nov 2000 03:33:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jessem@spammie.svbug.com) Message-Id: <200011191133.DAA03153@spammie.svbug.com> Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 03:33:15 -0800 (PST) From: opentrax@email.com Reply-To: opentrax@email.com Subject: Re: Good BSD press in feedmag To: des@ofug.org Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 16 Nov, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > "The underground's latest heroes are the directors of software > projects based on 4.4 BSD Lite, the free operating system pioneered at > the University of California at Berkeley in the late 1970s. The gratis > software churned out by projects like FreeBSD and OpenBSD is > inarguably superior to most mainstream Linux distributions, both in > terms of security and portability." > I read the article, as much as I could stand. While the article is about DefCon and takes more time to illustrate Theo De Raadt as a hacker, it's difficult to read. Mostly it seems from the authors need to educate us on large words that barely fit into the article. That and run-on sentences and scretching the grammer where barely plausible. I guess I should be the last to speak as sometime my rant extend into nothing-ness. Hence, read this after at least a good cup of coffee or a six-pack of Jolt. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 19 7:55:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from satan.freebsdsystems.com (satan.freebsdsystems.com [24.69.168.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FBF837B4C5; Sun, 19 Nov 2000 07:55:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from satan.freebsdsystems.com (satan.freebsdsystems.com [24.69.168.5]) by satan.freebsdsystems.com (8.11.1/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eAJFt4O91514; Sun, 19 Nov 2000 10:55:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 10:55:04 -0500 (EST) From: Lanny Baron To: opentrax@email.com Cc: des@ofug.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good BSD press in feedmag In-Reply-To: <200011191133.DAA03153@spammie.svbug.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, I scanned the article quickly. I personally think they (the writer(s) of the article should find out the difference between a hacker and a craker. --lnb On Sun, 19 Nov 2000, opentrax@email.com in the last wild and more than...: > > >On 16 Nov, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >> >> >> "The underground's latest heroes are the directors of software >> projects based on 4.4 BSD Lite, the free operating system pioneered at >> the University of California at Berkeley in the late 1970s. The gratis >> software churned out by projects like FreeBSD and OpenBSD is >> inarguably superior to most mainstream Linux distributions, both in >> terms of security and portability." >> >I read the article, as much as I could stand. >While the article is about DefCon and takes more time to >illustrate Theo De Raadt as a hacker, it's difficult to read. >Mostly it seems from the authors need to educate us on >large words that barely fit into the article. That and run-on >sentences and scretching the grammer where barely plausible. > >I guess I should be the last to speak as sometime my >rant extend into nothing-ness. Hence, read this after at least >a good cup of coffee or a six-pack of Jolt. > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 19 8: 2:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.va.home.com (ha1.rdc1.va.home.com [24.2.32.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C45537B479; Sun, 19 Nov 2000 08:02:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from home.com ([24.5.226.113]) by mail.rdc1.va.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20001119160249.NPGT12834.mail.rdc1.va.home.com@home.com>; Sun, 19 Nov 2000 08:02:49 -0800 Message-ID: <3A181624.B8EDA559@home.com> Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 10:04:20 -0800 From: Christian Ambrose X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lanny Baron , chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Good BSD press in feedmag References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think the authors do know, but they just don't think of it in those terms. Lanny Baron wrote: > > Hi, > I scanned the article quickly. I personally think they (the writer(s) of > the article should find out the difference between a hacker and a craker. > > --lnb > > On Sun, 19 Nov 2000, opentrax@email.com in the last wild and more than...: > > > > > > >On 16 Nov, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > >> > >> > >> "The underground's latest heroes are the directors of software > >> projects based on 4.4 BSD Lite, the free operating system pioneered at > >> the University of California at Berkeley in the late 1970s. The gratis > >> software churned out by projects like FreeBSD and OpenBSD is > >> inarguably superior to most mainstream Linux distributions, both in > >> terms of security and portability." > >> > >I read the article, as much as I could stand. > >While the article is about DefCon and takes more time to > >illustrate Theo De Raadt as a hacker, it's difficult to read. > >Mostly it seems from the authors need to educate us on > >large words that barely fit into the article. That and run-on > >sentences and scretching the grammer where barely plausible. > > > >I guess I should be the last to speak as sometime my > >rant extend into nothing-ness. Hence, read this after at least > >a good cup of coffee or a six-pack of Jolt. > > > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 19 9:59: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 508CF37B479; Sun, 19 Nov 2000 09:58:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA23866; Sun, 19 Nov 2000 18:58:46 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Lanny Baron Cc: opentrax@email.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good BSD press in feedmag References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 19 Nov 2000 18:58:45 +0100 In-Reply-To: Lanny Baron's message of "Sun, 19 Nov 2000 10:55:04 -0500 (EST)" Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Lanny Baron writes: > I scanned the article quickly. I personally think they (the writer(s) of > the article should find out the difference between a hacker and a craker. They know it just fine. Look for the paragraph that starts with "TO THOSE UNFAMILIAR" in red letters. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 19 10:48: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n37.san.rr.com (dt051n37.san.rr.com [204.210.32.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0422537B4D7 for ; Sun, 19 Nov 2000 10:47:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from FreeBSD.org (Studded@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n37.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA26283; Sun, 19 Nov 2000 10:47:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DougB@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <3A18205C.F5FAA422@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 10:47:56 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Brann Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Tibco RendezVous References: <20001117133837.A5894@freebie.brann.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Brann wrote: > > Hi, > > A puzzling thing has happened. I work for a company which is a heavy user > of Tibco's Rendezvous messaging software - not uncommon in and around > Wall Street, and increasingly common elsewhere. > > I came to my attention (when I was installing Rendezvous on my desktop > machine in the office) that there is a native FreeBSD version. > > That surprised me a little (on reflection, I know that Yahoo uses it, so > maybe that helps to explain it) but what surprised me more was that the > freebsd.org site has no references to it (Tibco isn't listed in the > vendors page(s)) nor could I find any mailing list references. There isn't > even a Port. (OK - I know, 'make one', I'll give it a go) > > Why so quiet? Here is a commercial product, natively supported on FreeBSD, > without a linux version, that is a key component of a great deal of high- > priced commercial developments. You might want to contact the company, let them know how much you like their product and value the FreeBSD port of it, and suggest that they visit http://www.FreeBSD.org/cgi/gallery.cgi to do a little bragging. :) Doug -- Life is an essay test. Long form. Spelling counts. Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 19 12:20:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (cm-24-246-28-166.toney.mediacom.ispchannel.com [24.246.28.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82CBA37B479 for ; Sun, 19 Nov 2000 12:20:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eAJKKQS84459 for ; Sun, 19 Nov 2000 14:20:26 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Message-Id: <200011192020.eAJKKQS84459@grumpy.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.2 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: cd /usr/ports; make clean In-reply-to: Message from "David O'Brien" of "Sun, 19 Nov 2000 08:40:12 PST." <20001119084012.B39683@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 14:20:26 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "David O'Brien" writes: > On Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 12:35:27AM -0600, David Kelly wrote: > > I'm sure to be off my rocker to suggest something like this 2 days > > before -RELEASE, but sometimes I don't clean up after installing a port > ^^^^^^ > > WHY are you posting this in the -stable list?? This has nothing to do > with anything specific to -stable. This 100% belongs in > ports@freebsd.org. Please stay on-topic. So why did you publicly bitch at me on -stable and not -chat? Answering your question: My decision was that its 51% -stable and 49% -ports and that I don't like multiple postings. The governing file is /usr/share/mk/bsd.port.subdir.mk which redirects to "${PORTSDIR}/Mk/bsd.port.subdir.mk" so maybe my call was inverted. I stand by my original decision as I've learned my original gut instinct is usually best. It is certainly not 100% anything but *BSD. If I liked abuse I'd use Linux. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 19 21:20: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0146637B479 for ; Sun, 19 Nov 2000 21:20:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA29776; Sun, 19 Nov 2000 22:19:48 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001119182538.043874b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 18:57:33 -0700 To: Neil Blakey-Milner From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Jordan Hubbard on Darwin Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20001119050641.A4791@mithrandr.moria.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001118142924.00cb6850@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20001118142924.00cb6850@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Neil: There are a lot of interesting points in your message, so pardon me for having taken a while to respond. At 08:06 PM 11/18/2000, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: >Ok Brett, we'll just force Jordan to lie next time. Thanks for the >advice. Here we were innocently thinking that it was good to tell the >truth, and evil to lie and obscure the truth, but luckily you're here to >set us right. I would not advocate lying; that is a trait of both the FSF and Microsoft, and FreeBSD should not practice it. On the other hand, active advocacy of software which is licensed unethically and which is part of an agenda that includes wiping out the BSDs is not good either. >While I dislike bash, many others don't, Fine. But it is not appropriate for a leader of a BSD development project to advocate the use of GPLed software. >and GNU tar is pretty much standard for a Unix system. If GNU tar is a "standard," it is through the negligence of the BSD world. We must fight this and develop equivalent or superior BSD-licensed software. If we do not, we are dependent upon an organization which would like nothing better than to destroy us! (And could, easily, by changing the next version of the GPL.) > If they weren't there, I'm sure most would >complain, and if they are there, that's good for OS X. In this case, >one isn't there, being complained about, and one is, being complimented >on. > >I'd much rather see Jordan appearing in these articles with on-topic >beliefs about his favourite shell and how useful tar is for unpacking >tarballs than you espousing a "The FSF is evil and we should put them >down where we can". The FSF is seeking to put *us* down. Advocating their software advances that cause, and Jordan should not do that. I don't think he realizes just how much harm this does. >While I don't agree with Eric Raymond on all things, he makes one good >argument. People don't really respond to good/evil. They respond to >things that make a difference in their role and life. I disagree. The Linux/GPL crowd has gotten a very STRONG response by branding Microsoft as "evil." Interestingly, many of the open source projects we've seen today have been motivated by anger. This includes not only Stallman's work (originally motivated by a misguided, now 20+ year old grudge against Symbolics, Inc.) but also OpenBSD. Do not discount or dismiss anger as a source of motivation in the open source world. It is, in fact, a prime mover. > Talking about >good, evil, and the moral implications of supporting the GNU project by >just using a product of theirs just isn't something that matters in the >lives of most of those readers. Again, not so. If you doubt this, just read Slashdot! > If you hit a BSD developer, you might >get a few points, but if you hit your average user (Linux, bash, emacs, >whatever) you're just losing major cred for us or having no effect. The ones who see the big picture, such as Tom Christiansen, DO understand. (I met Tom for the first time this summer in Boulder, on the Pearl Street Mall, and was very impressed with him. He has a short attention span, but I can easily forgive that because I do too. And he's absolutely as sharp as a tack.) >My thanks, as ever, to Jordan for a well-controlled and interesting >interview It was a review, not an interview. >that has probably already got FreeBSD more positive attention >than your rants on licensing. Your (Brett's) articles in boardwatch and >other places, that don't refer to the evil of the FSF, easily have won >FreeBSD more friends than your moral licensing dilemna posts. You don't see my mail, but I get a LOT of positive feedback when I write about the GPL. One recent letter said: "Thank you. Before I read your article, I took the GPL preamble at face value. Now that I know what is going on, I see that the GPL does the opposite of what it claims. The code is free to users but not to programmers and that is very ungood. I am using the Perl Artistic License on my next project." >Your posts about the evils of the FSF, GPL, and GNU products have >lost FreeBSD more users and credibility than your articles, though. Actually, the only thing that has cost FreeBSD credibility is when people WITHIN the FreeBSD community bash me for those postings. They see this as portending a lack of unity and of perspective. Surely the BSD community should be unanimous in opposing a group that seeks to destroy it and the good it has done! Most of the people who comment to me about this do not understand why the BSD community doesn't link arms and oppose the FSF. They see this as a sign that the BSDers are so much far removed from reality -- isolated in their academic ivory towers, as it were -- that they can't even perceive a direct threat. We really need to unify in opposition to the GPL and purge it from the code base. Yes, including the toolchain. (I understand that Borland C/C++ for Linux is now available for free; perhaps we can port the compiler and RTL.) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 19 22:33:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gratis.grondar.za (grouter.grondar.za [196.7.18.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB55C37B4CF for ; Sun, 19 Nov 2000 22:33:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from grondar.za (grapevine.grondar.za [196.7.18.17]) by gratis.grondar.za (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eAK6XXJ18043; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 08:33:34 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Message-Id: <200011200633.eAK6XXJ18043@gratis.grondar.za> To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan Hubbard on Darwin References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001119182538.043874b0@localhost> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001119182538.043874b0@localhost> ; from Brett Glass "Sun, 19 Nov 2000 18:57:33 MST." Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 08:33:29 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > We really need to unify in opposition to the GPL and purge it from the > code base. Yes, including the toolchain. (I understand that Borland > C/C++ for Linux is now available for free; perhaps we can port the > compiler and RTL.) Your patches are eagerly awaited. M -- Mark Murray Join the anti-SPAM movement: http://www.cauce.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 19 23: 2:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from klapaucius.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A62E37B479 for ; Sun, 19 Nov 2000 23:02:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by klapaucius.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 4462C239A63; Sun, 19 Nov 2000 23:02:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 23:02:18 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Kris Kirby Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 1RU kits / servers? Message-ID: <20001119230218.A30802@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="0OAP2g/MAC+5xKAE" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from kris@catonic.net on Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 04:26:08AM +0000 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --0OAP2g/MAC+5xKAE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2000-11-19 04:26 +0000, Kris Kirby wrote: >=20 > I'm looking for leads into Celeron/Pentium III-based 1RU rack > servers. Kits, cases, or entire servers. Pricing, specs, and store > locations would help as well. hardware.bsdi.com www.asacomputers.com www.iqinfoquest.com =2E..are three who build fine 1Us. Greg --=20 Gregory S. Sutter Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm mailto:gsutter@zer0.org for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ be warm for the rest of his life.=20 hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD --0OAP2g/MAC+5xKAE Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: '' iEYEARECAAYFAjoYzHoACgkQIBUx1YRd/t1pMgCfX/RLANz/baVmXNOFVQ7PyXup DP4An0ODN7sQR8mjDri5TPb0bFIl2URaiEYEARECAAYFAjoYzHoACgkQIBUx1YRd /t1pMgCeL4/XZH/aUZnAYOTWRxi+/Cf/Qj0An1///fAZ86hCXDEKbnqqdbyPfV8D =6/3f -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0OAP2g/MAC+5xKAE-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 20 0:32:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 625DD37B4CF; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 00:32:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA05112; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 01:28:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA30aW7j; Mon Nov 20 01:28:35 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA04012; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 01:32:11 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200011200832.BAA04012@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Good BSD press in feedmag To: opentrax@email.com Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 08:32:11 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200011191133.DAA03153@spammie.svbug.com> from "opentrax@email.com" at Nov 19, 2000 03:33:15 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I read the article, as much as I could stand. > While the article is about DefCon and takes more time to > illustrate Theo De Raadt as a hacker, it's difficult to read. > Mostly it seems from the authors need to educate us on > large words that barely fit into the article. That and run-on > sentences and scretching the grammer where barely plausible. It appears to be an attempt at the early expermintal style of William Gibson, used in stories such as "Count Zero". This is an understandable thing to attempt, since Gibson coined the word "cyberspace", and his characters are the image which the current crop of crackers attempt to portray themselves in. As an idea, it's nice: Gibson is one of several living authors whose work will, I believe, be considered literature by future generations. The execution of the style in the article sucked, however. -- Kid Africa came cruising into Dog Solitude on the last day in November, his vintage Dodge chauffeured by a white girl named Cherry Chesterfield. Slich Henry and Little Bird were breaking down the buzzsaw that formed the Judge's left hand when Kid's Dodge came into view, its patched apron bag throwing up brown fantails of the rusty water that pooled on the Solitude's uneven plain of compacted steel. _Mona Lisa Overdrive_ -- William Gibson -- Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 20 1:11:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2630237B479 for ; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 01:11:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA07040; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 02:10:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAyVaisn; Mon Nov 20 02:09:08 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA04684; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 02:10:05 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200011200910.CAA04684@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Jordan Hubbard on Darwin To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 09:08:44 +0000 (GMT) Cc: nbm@mithrandr.moria.org (Neil Blakey-Milner), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001119182538.043874b0@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Nov 19, 2000 06:57:33 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >and GNU tar is pretty much standard for a Unix system. > > If GNU tar is a "standard," it is through the negligence of the BSD > world. We must fight this and develop equivalent or superior BSD-licensed > software. If we do not, we are dependent upon an organization which > would like nothing better than to destroy us! (And could, easily, by > changing the next version of the GPL.) A clarification: the BSD "tar" program, and the newer "pax" program, which attempts to unify tar and other archivers under one nearly impossible to use roof, are both available under BSD license. BSD went to the GNU tar because of the "absolute->relative" conversion (by default, it eats leading "/" in an ill-considered attempt to "protect" users) and for its sparse file support. My biggest gripe about it is that it encourages the use of options that will make real tar barf, so scripts written with it in mind are as bad as GNU Makefile's or sh scripts that assume bash features or csh scripts that assume tcsh features: they don't work everywhere, like Ritchie, Kernigan, Pike, Bourne, et. al. intended them to work. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 20 7:24:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lunatic.oneinsane.net (lunatic.oneinsane.net [207.113.133.231]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26F3337B479 for ; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 07:24:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by lunatic.oneinsane.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7EE6315551; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 07:24:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 07:24:38 -0800 From: Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson To: FreeBSD-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 1RU kits / servers? Message-ID: <20001120072438.A97848@lunatic.oneinsane.net> Reply-To: Ron Rosson Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD-chat@freebsd.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from kris@catonic.net on Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 04:26:08AM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD lunatic.oneinsane.net 4.1.1-STABLE X-Moon: The Moon is Waning Crescent (29% of Full) X-Opinion: What you read here is my IMHO X-WWW: http://www.oneinsane.net X-GPG-FINGERPRINT: 3F11 DB43 F080 C037 96F0 F8D3 5BD2 652B 171C 86DB X-Uptime: 7:18AM up 22 days, 9:33, 1 user, load averages: 1.14, 1.04, 1.01 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kirby (kris@catonic.net) wrote: > > I'm looking for leads into Celeron/Pentium III-based 1RU rack > servers. Kits, cases, or entire servers. Pricing, specs, and store > locations would help as well. > There is the intel ISP1100 servers. Here is a link to specs and information: http://www.intel.com/network/products/isp1100.htm -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... The InSaNe One rm -rf * insane@oneinsane.net and all was /dev/null and *void() ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I am under the influence of sugar, caffeine, and lack of sleep, and should not be held responsible for my behavior. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 20 7:29:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82CD937B479 for ; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 07:29:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA29220; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 16:28:59 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Ron Rosson Cc: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 1RU kits / servers? References: <20001120072438.A97848@lunatic.oneinsane.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 20 Nov 2000 16:28:57 +0100 In-Reply-To: "Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson"'s message of "Mon, 20 Nov 2000 07:24:38 -0800" Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson" writes: > There is the intel ISP1100 servers. Here is a link to specs and > information: > > http://www.intel.com/network/products/isp1100.htm One of my customers has a bunch of those, they run FreeBSD just fine. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 20 9:16:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from spammie.svbug.com (mg128-012.ricochet.net [204.179.128.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FE6937B4C5; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 09:16:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from spammie.svbug.com (localhost.mozie.org [127.0.0.1]) by spammie.svbug.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA04788; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 09:17:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jessem@spammie.svbug.com) Message-Id: <200011201717.JAA04788@spammie.svbug.com> Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 09:17:25 -0800 (PST) From: opentrax@email.com Reply-To: opentrax@email.com Subject: Re: Good BSD press in feedmag To: tlambert@primenet.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200011200832.BAA04012@usr06.primenet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 20 Nov, Terry Lambert wrote: >> I read the article, as much as I could stand. >>...[Trimmed}... > > It appears to be an attempt at the early expermintal style of > William Gibson, used in stories such as "Count Zero". This is >...[Trimmed]... > Oh, that's what it was. ;-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 20 9:32:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.calweb.com (mail.calweb.com [209.210.251.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B82F737B4C5 for ; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 09:32:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from calweb.com (cslye@admin3.calweb.com [209.210.251.75]) by mail.calweb.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA05513 for ; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 09:32:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A195FC7.FA79BBDC@calweb.com> Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 09:30:47 -0800 From: Cameron Slye X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 1RU kits / servers? References: <20001120072438.A97848@lunatic.oneinsane.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > "Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson" writes: > > There is the intel ISP1100 servers. Here is a link to specs and > > information: > > > > http://www.intel.com/network/products/isp1100.htm > > One of my customers has a bunch of those, they run FreeBSD just fine. Hurry up and get them, Intel is no longer going to sell them after the new year... They are priced nicely, and that pissed off Dell, Compaq etc... http://www.cnetinvestor.com/newsitem-fd.asp?symbol=684567 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 20 12:47: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hellasnet.gr (mail.hellasnet.gr [212.54.192.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D20337B479 for ; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 12:46:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (ppp5.patr.hellasnet.gr [212.54.197.20]) by mail.hellasnet.gr (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA14648; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 18:46:34 -0200 (GMT) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eAKF66m20142; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 17:06:06 +0200 (EET) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 17:06:06 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Brett Glass Cc: Neil Blakey-Milner , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan Hubbard on Darwin Message-ID: <20001120170606.B19476@hades.hell.gr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001118142924.00cb6850@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20001118142924.00cb6850@localhost> <20001119050641.A4791@mithrandr.moria.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20001119182538.043874b0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001119182538.043874b0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 06:57:33PM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 06:57:33PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > > We really need to unify in opposition to the GPL and purge it from the > code base. Yes, including the toolchain. (I understand that Borland > C/C++ for Linux is now available for free; perhaps we can port the > compiler and RTL.) Under which license exactly has this been made available? Because, if it's the GPL again, then sorry Brett, but I prefer GCC. - giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 20 18:59:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hand.dotat.at (sfo-gw.covalent.net [207.44.198.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A197237B479 for ; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 18:59:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from fanf by hand.dotat.at with local (Exim 3.15 #3) id 13y3du-000OtS-00 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 02:58:46 +0000 Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 02:58:46 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan Hubbard on Darwin Message-ID: <20001121025846.D54653@hand.dotat.at> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001118142924.00cb6850@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001118142924.00cb6850@localhost> Organization: Covalent Technologies, Inc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > >Jordan writes: > >>Let's hear it for GNU tar, gzip, cpio and pax being standard components! Isn't pax a BSD program? Tony. -- f.a.n.finch dot@dotat.at fanf@covalent.net Chad for President! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 20 21:58:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from citusc17.usc.edu (citusc17.usc.edu [128.125.38.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C78D37B479 for ; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 21:58:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kris@localhost) by citusc17.usc.edu (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eAL5x9p93180; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 21:59:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 21:59:09 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Tony Finch Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan Hubbard on Darwin Message-ID: <20001120215909.E92862@citusc17.usc.edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001118142924.00cb6850@localhost> <20001121025846.D54653@hand.dotat.at> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="IMjqdzrDRly81ofr" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001121025846.D54653@hand.dotat.at>; from dot@dotat.at on Tue, Nov 21, 2000 at 02:58:46AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --IMjqdzrDRly81ofr Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Nov 21, 2000 at 02:58:46AM +0000, Tony Finch wrote: > Brett Glass wrote: > > > >Jordan writes: > > > >>Let's hear it for GNU tar, gzip, cpio and pax being standard components! >=20 > Isn't pax a BSD program? GNU..BSD..they're pretty much the same thing, really. Kris --IMjqdzrDRly81ofr Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjoaDywACgkQWry0BWjoQKWJSgCgvvdRwpJY4vJtyCCECJQ6TQtc xXcAniJxSXH9HX1xeEn0QeLCRwn8fiaf =7Dfk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --IMjqdzrDRly81ofr-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 21 0:32:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (csmd2.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De [141.44.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F24637B4CF for ; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 00:32:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (jesse@knecht [141.44.21.3]) by csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA26455 for ; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 09:32:15 +0100 (MET) Received: (from jesse@localhost) by knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id JAA08174; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 09:32:14 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de: jesse set sender to jesse@cs.uni-magdeburg.de using -f To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: security-advisories _always_ send to -announce, too?! From: Roland Jesse Date: 21 Nov 2000 09:32:14 +0100 Message-ID: <0vvgthafox.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, it seems to me that postings to security-advisories@freebsd.org get always posted to freebsd-announce@freebsd.org, too. In case one is subscribed to -announce and does not want to miss any security advisories - would it be save to unsubscribe from security-advisories? Roland To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 21 0:35: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from citusc17.usc.edu (citusc17.usc.edu [128.125.38.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0594337B4CF for ; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 00:35:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kris@localhost) by citusc17.usc.edu (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eAL8a1X95725; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 00:36:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 00:36:01 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Roland Jesse Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: security-advisories _always_ send to -announce, too?! Message-ID: <20001121003601.B95525@citusc17.usc.edu> References: <0vvgthafox.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="LyciRD1jyfeSSjG0" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <0vvgthafox.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de>; from jesse@mail.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De on Tue, Nov 21, 2000 at 09:32:14AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --LyciRD1jyfeSSjG0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Nov 21, 2000 at 09:32:14AM +0100, Roland Jesse wrote: > Hi, >=20 > it seems to me that postings to security-advisories@freebsd.org get > always posted to freebsd-announce@freebsd.org, too. In case one is > subscribed to -announce and does not want to miss any security > advisories - would it be save to unsubscribe from security-advisories? =46rom http://www.freebsd.org/security: Advisories are sent to the following FreeBSD mailing lists: * FreeBSD-security-notifications@FreeBSD.org * FreeBSD-security@FreeBSD.org * FreeBSD-announce@FreeBSD.org Kris --LyciRD1jyfeSSjG0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjoaM/AACgkQWry0BWjoQKUrxwCglKJpchuzkq2Lj7DzelCW4jvR DEcAoPBk+PN6kJonq8VRNnnRtYeVXrJX =LEHb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --LyciRD1jyfeSSjG0-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 21 1:53:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from csunb0.leeds.ac.uk (csunb0.leeds.ac.uk [129.11.144.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CCC7437B479; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 01:53:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from cslin.leeds.ac.uk (csunc0.leeds.ac.uk [129.11.144.3]) by csunb0.leeds.ac.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA20954; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 09:47:57 GMT Received: from cslin019.leeds.ac.uk (cslin019 [129.11.146.19]) by cslin.leeds.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/) with ESMTP id JAA26585; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 09:48:06 GMT Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 09:47:56 +0000 From: Ben Smithurst To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Jason Halbert , Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Is any efnet server still running? Message-ID: <20001121094756.C14517@comp.leeds.ac.uk> References: <20001119145226.H52433@echunga.lemis.com> <3A175EE0.507EEC5C@gte.net> <20001118213513.A81336@citusc17.usc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001118213513.A81336@citusc17.usc.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kennaway wrote: > Nope, they all seem to be down. I use irc.ins.net.uk, but that seemed to have gone last night too. :-( > Fortunately, there's irc.freebsd.org :-) Unfortunately it requires ident, which the machines here at Leeds don't have, which sort of keeps me out. Perhaps that's intentional. ;-) Anyone know the admins and want to ask them to relax the ident requirement? -- Ben Smithurst / csxbcs@comp.leeds.ac.uk / ben@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 21 7:22:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 4DF1237B4C5; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 07:22:46 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: jesse@mail.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <0vvgthafox.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> (message from Roland Jesse on 21 Nov 2000 09:32:14 +0100) Subject: Re: security-advisories _always_ send to -announce, too?! Message-Id: <20001121152246.4DF1237B4C5@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 07:22:46 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org it would be safe to subscribe to announce only. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 21 7:23:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from heechee.tobez.org (254.adsl0.ryv.worldonline.dk [213.237.10.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C9E837B4CF for ; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 07:23:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by heechee.tobez.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 71E9354C4; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 16:23:28 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 16:23:28 +0100 From: Anton Berezin To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE is now available Message-ID: <20001121162328.C2967@heechee.tobez.org> Mail-Followup-To: Anton Berezin , Jordan Hubbard , chat@freebsd.org References: <71910.974809908@winston.osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <71910.974809908@winston.osd.bsdi.com>; from jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com on Tue, Nov 21, 2000 at 04:31:48AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Nov 21, 2000 at 04:31:48AM -0800, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > FreeBSD is also available via anonymous FTP from mirror sites in the > following countries: [snip] > Elbonia [snip] So where is ftp.el.freebsd.org then? :-) %Anton. -- and would be a nice addition to HTML specification. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 21 8:32: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from citusc17.usc.edu (citusc17.usc.edu [128.125.38.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31C5937B4C5 for ; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 08:32:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kris@localhost) by citusc17.usc.edu (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eALGWdW03166; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 08:32:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 08:32:39 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Josef Karthauser Cc: Sheldon Hearn , Jun Kuriyama , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: not hundreds of individuals Message-ID: <20001121083239.B2922@citusc17.usc.edu> References: <7mu291towr.wl@waterblue.imgsrc.co.jp> <16377.974815089@axl.fw.uunet.co.za> <20001121150045.L97275@pavilion.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="dc+cDN39EJAMEtIO" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001121150045.L97275@pavilion.net>; from joe@pavilion.net on Tue, Nov 21, 2000 at 03:00:45PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --dc+cDN39EJAMEtIO Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Nov 21, 2000 at 03:00:45PM +0000, Josef Karthauser wrote: > On Tue, Nov 21, 2000 at 03:58:09PM +0200, Sheldon Hearn wrote: > > FreeBSD represents the cumulative work of many hundreds, if not > > thousands, of individuals from around the world who have worked very > > hard to bring you this release. For a complete list of FreeBSD > > project staffers, please see: >=20 > FreeBSD represents the cumulative work of millions, if not billions, > of trained monkeys from around the world who have worked very very > very hard and eaten lots of peanuts to bring you this release. unsubscribe --dc+cDN39EJAMEtIO Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjoao6YACgkQWry0BWjoQKX+pACfUdOSN1bKytW2bKJisjjAXDDc X8AAnjoIIikxAogCw8IsO4ZrF/sey3QR =F1fu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --dc+cDN39EJAMEtIO-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 21 8:34: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from citusc17.usc.edu (citusc17.usc.edu [128.125.38.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24AA337B4C5 for ; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 08:34:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kris@localhost) by citusc17.usc.edu (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eALGYtq03215; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 08:34:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 08:34:55 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Anton Berezin Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE is now available Message-ID: <20001121083455.C2922@citusc17.usc.edu> References: <71910.974809908@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <20001121162328.C2967@heechee.tobez.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="1ccMZA6j1vT5UqiK" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001121162328.C2967@heechee.tobez.org>; from tobez@tobez.org on Tue, Nov 21, 2000 at 04:23:28PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --1ccMZA6j1vT5UqiK Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Nov 21, 2000 at 04:23:28PM +0100, Anton Berezin wrote: > On Tue, Nov 21, 2000 at 04:31:48AM -0800, Jordan Hubbard wrote: >=20 > > FreeBSD is also available via anonymous FTP from mirror sites in the > > following countries: > [snip] > > Elbonia > [snip] >=20 > So where is ftp.el.freebsd.org then? :-) Unfortunately they don't actually have an internet connection yet. No one can find where to plug it in underneath all that mud. Kris --1ccMZA6j1vT5UqiK Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjoapC8ACgkQWry0BWjoQKXSxQCfVewqHbIHWHmtkDCS3FKFgCZA 0fUAoPbQ4C3VLqntcG8Z8U4PpU0P+zob =df+w -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --1ccMZA6j1vT5UqiK-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 21 10:31:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pike.osd.bsdi.com (pike.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3EAC37B4C5 for ; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 10:31:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@jhb-laptop.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.241]) by pike.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id eALIVMT17166; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 10:31:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20001121083239.B2922@citusc17.usc.edu> Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 10:31:30 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Josef Karthauser Subject: Re: not hundreds of individuals Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, Jun Kuriyama , Sheldon Hearn Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Nov 21, 2000 at 03:00:45PM +0000, Josef Karthauser wrote: > On Tue, Nov 21, 2000 at 03:58:09PM +0200, Sheldon Hearn wrote: > > FreeBSD represents the cumulative work of many hundreds, if not > > thousands, of individuals from around the world who have worked very > > hard to bring you this release. For a complete list of FreeBSD > > project staffers, please see: > > FreeBSD represents the cumulative work of millions, if not billions, > of trained monkeys from around the world who have worked very very > very hard and eaten lots of peanuts to bring you this release. This monkey uses direct IV's of Dr. Pepper rather than peanuts, thank you very much. :-P -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 21 10:32:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C39C737B4C5 for ; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 10:32:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 13yIDB-0004F2-01; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 19:32:09 +0100 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eALINZR69608 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 19:23:35 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from daemon) From: seti@mips.inka.de (SETI@home) Subject: Re: Jordan Hubbard on Darwin Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 18:23:35 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <8veej7$23uv$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001118142924.00cb6850@localhost> <20001121025846.D54653@hand.dotat.at> Originator: seti@mips.inka.de (SETI@home) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tony Finch wrote: > >>Let's hear it for GNU tar, gzip, cpio and pax being standard components! > Isn't pax a BSD program? Yes. And in fact, 4.4BSD pax also served as tar and cpio. They're all links to the same program that modifies its command line syntax depending on how it's called. FreeBSD and NetBSD have elected to go with GNU tar and cpio. I suspect that this decision predates the release of 4.4BSD Light and the availability of 4.4BSD pax. OpenBSD follows the 4.4BSD lead, and has incorporate some fixes/improvements into pax. pax as tar doesn't support all of GNU tar's bloa^Wfeatures, though, nor GNU tar's archive format extensions. Install the sysutils/gtar port, read the "Controlling the Archive Format" section of the info file, and start crying about the mess GNU tar is. Oh, and to complete this sorry topic, our tar has diverged significantly from the GNU release over time, so that a merge/update is problematical. Unfortunately, GNU tar has the singular feature (among tars) of supporting incrementals. So if you're caught in a situation where you can't use dump, because you don't want to backup the complete filesystem, nor star, because you need incrementals, gtar is your only choice. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 21 10:55: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail3.registeredsite.com (mail3.registeredsite.com [209.35.159.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 345E937B479 for ; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 10:55:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.threespace.com ([216.247.134.44]) by mail3.registeredsite.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA12887 for ; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:52:31 -0500 Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com [24.21.224.204] by mail.threespace.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.00) id A50466E00FE; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:55:00 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001121134958.01774da8@mail.threespace.com> X-Sender: tech_info@mail.threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:54:55 -0500 To: FreeBSD-Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: GPL rant number 31391 (was: Jordan Hubbard on Darwin) In-Reply-To: <20001119165527.L52433@echunga.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001118222633.046bb550@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20001118184345.045f1d90@localhost> <20001119111646.C5877@echunga.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20001118142924.00cb6850@localhost> <20001119111646.C5877@echunga.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20001118184345.045f1d90@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey, what's wrong with Eudora? >:-/ Eudora is one of the most feature rich and easy to use mailers that I've seen (which is saying no more than that it's my personal fav'rit). But really, I did think that Eudora was pretty standards compliant, much more so than Outlook Express, for instance. I do believe they incorporated a few new tags (like "format=flowed") that haven't quite been standardized, but otherwise I think they're really good people. In fact, they're software is almost free; you can download and use a fully functional version of it as long as you're willing to put up with advertisements during its use. Do we recognize nearly free software in any special way in this camp? --Chip Morton At 01:25 AM 11/19/2000, Greg Lehey wrote: >On Saturday, 18 November 2000 at 22:28:27 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > > At 07:02 PM 11/18/2000, Brad Knowles wrote: > > > >> If you truly want to tilt at that windmill, I suggest you go > off and write a BSD C compiler (and C++, and Fortran, and the debugger, > and the complete development environment) that doesn't depend on any GPL > code, and you'll be in your grave before me. > >Grrr. If you can rant about GPL, let me at least vent my spleen that >you have mangled Brad's message by removing the line breaks. What >junk did that? > > > X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 > >You complain about the GPL, but you're happy with Microsoft? That I >really don't understand. > > >Greg >-- >Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key >See complete headers for address and phone numbers > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 21 11:35:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A265837B479; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 11:35:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA10249; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:30:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAhJaOYW; Tue Nov 21 11:44:13 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA28165; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 11:48:11 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200011211848.LAA28165@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Is any efnet server still running? To: csxbcs@comp.leeds.ac.uk (Ben Smithurst) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 18:48:11 +0000 (GMT) Cc: kris@FreeBSD.ORG (Kris Kennaway), res02jw5@gte.net (Jason Halbert), grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey), chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: <20001121094756.C14517@comp.leeds.ac.uk> from "Ben Smithurst" at Nov 21, 2000 09:47:56 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Fortunately, there's irc.freebsd.org :-) > > Unfortunately it requires ident, which the machines here at Leeds > don't have, which sort of keeps me out. Perhaps that's intentional. > ;-) Anyone know the admins and want to ask them to relax the ident > requirement? It's a security precaution, and is unlikely to be relaxed, so long as the administrator remains sane. The point of ident is to hold the machine administrator responsible for the actions of users on the machine, by allowing the offending user to be reported accurately to the administrator of an offending machine. Failure of the administrator to take action will result in the machine being diked out of the IRC community. An administrator may choose to spoof this data (root access is required to bind a priviledged port), but if they do so, then the site will be held globally responsible for the actions of an individual user. Mail servers generally require that forward and reverse address resolutions map to the same values, such that the forward autority, vested in the domain delegation, and the reverse authroity, vested in the in-addr.arpa. delegation, are required to correlate. By doing this, they ensure against DNS spoofing by SPAMmers, and can dike a SPAMmer out of the SMTP community. Of course, individual Windows boxes can lie about this, as can FreeBSD desktops, but in general, one can also dike dialups (non-static address assignments) out of the community as well, to ensure that dialups are forced through their ISPs servers, and then the community can hold the ISP accountable for their relay traffic (IRC or SMTP) and ensure ISP compliance with policy enforcement. IPv6 stateless autoconfiguration adds some additional complexity, but it's actually managable by permitting proxy reverse using the original sites forward to ensure the requesting system has provable credentials. I expect that mail servers will refuse connections from machines in the autoconfiguration space, for which the reverse mapping doesn't result in a host name for which they are authortative, and a forward mapping doesn't result in the same address (meaning that someon has spoofed a reverse mapping). So this means that laptop.visitor.com could walk into example.com, get an IPv6 state autoconfiguration address via WaveLAN, go to their home DNS server with their X.509 certificate and set up their forward mapping via DNSUPDAT, and then ask via unauthenticated DNSUPDAT that the local in-addr.arpa. delegation say that the address belongs to laptop.visitor.com, instead of some host in example.com; before this is permitted, the local DNS server would contact the visitor.com DNS server to verify the forward mapping; a match permits the mapping, with a TTL of 1/2 that of the forward mapping (and which the client would need to renew periodically, just like the forward mapping). Then the laptop would need to relay outbound email through a mail server at visitor.com, and everything would Just Work. The same thing could be applied to the IRC situation, of course... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 21 12: 7:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from epicsol.org (epicsol.org [209.100.173.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5621B37B4C5 for ; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:07:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jnelson@localhost) by epicsol.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA90752; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 14:07:51 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from jnelson) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 14:07:51 -0600 (CST) From: Jeremy Nelson Message-Id: <200011212007.OAA90752@epicsol.org> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is any efnet server still running? X-Newsgroups: freebsd.chat In-Reply-To: <200011211848.LAA28165@usr08.primenet.com> Organization: Damage, org. Cc: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: >[Requiring ident to use irc is] a security precaution, and is unlikely to >be relaxed, so long as the administrator remains sane. > >The point of ident is to hold the machine administrator responsible >for the actions of users on the machine, by allowing the offending >user to be reported accurately to the administrator of an offending >machine. > >Failure of the administrator to take action will result in the >machine being diked out of the IRC community. This may be true in some contexts, but the benefit of using ident in irc is actually more practical for other reasons. The script kiddies love to use the floodbots that spoof other addresses, especially addresses of people the script kiddie want to get in trouble. Some networks, like the undernet, require a PING/PONG exchange with a random value. But this value might be guessed if you try hard enough. Other networks require that you run an identd daemon because then you have the chance to validate or invalidate all connections made in your name. In the absence of an ident daemon, the server has no way of knowing whether or not the connection is actually from you, or from someone forging your ip address. It isn't technically relevant what your ident daemon returns. The only thing that is relevant is that the server has asked *you* if this is *your* connection and unless you say "yes, this is my connection", it won't let you go any further. This is the best way yet to keep dynamic IP users from crying innocence when a boatload of floodbots show up from their IP address. Jeremy To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 21 12:41:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (winston.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.27.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5FBB37B4C5 for ; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:41:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id eALKfII74040; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:41:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com) To: Anton Berezin , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE is now available In-Reply-To: Message from Anton Berezin of "Tue, 21 Nov 2000 16:23:28 +0100." <20001121162328.C2967@heechee.tobez.org> Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:41:18 -0800 Message-ID: <74036.974839278@winston.osd.bsdi.com> From: Jordan Hubbard Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Elbonia > [snip] > > So where is ftp.el.freebsd.org then? :-) We're still waiting for the country's only major ISP, mudlink, to come through with the 386 they promised to allocate for this. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 21 13:14: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from klapaucius.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4300737B479 for ; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:14:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by klapaucius.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 0D56E239BD6; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:14:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:14:04 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Technical Information Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GPL rant number 31391 (was: Jordan Hubbard on Darwin) Message-ID: <20001121131403.B30802@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001118222633.046bb550@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20001118184345.045f1d90@localhost> <20001119111646.C5877@echunga.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20001118142924.00cb6850@localhost> <20001119111646.C5877@echunga.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20001118184345.045f1d90@localhost> <20001119165527.L52433@echunga.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20001121134958.01774da8@mail.threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="JP+T4n/bALQSJXh8" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001121134958.01774da8@mail.threespace.com>; from tech_info@threespace.com on Tue, Nov 21, 2000 at 01:54:55PM -0500 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --JP+T4n/bALQSJXh8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2000-11-21 13:54 -0500, Technical Information = wrote: > software is almost free; you can download and use a fully functional=20 > version of it as long as you're willing to put up with advertisements=20 > during its use. Do we recognize nearly free software in any special way = in=20 > this camp? Adware, especially closed-source adware, is no more free than the=20 latest cruft from Microsoft. It's just another form of commercial software. Greg --=20 Gregory S. Sutter "Software is like sex; it's better mailto:gsutter@zer0.org when it's free." -- Linus Torvalds http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/=20 hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD --JP+T4n/bALQSJXh8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: '' iEYEARECAAYFAjoa5ZsACgkQIBUx1YRd/t2kVQCcD5CEjBZD3hrkQ9/NxtsJi7Nj BzAAnjn38YUkte7e+ovfNpBGyyhvc5kQiEYEARECAAYFAjoa5ZsACgkQIBUx1YRd /t2kVQCfapbUKyY45CXv9FrXLWiCV1RHNT8An1w1SYEXpti2M0O2RqY7GGelTnWU =vmgp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --JP+T4n/bALQSJXh8-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 21 13:33: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 214D837B4CF for ; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:33:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA03903; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 15:32:40 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 15:32:39 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Wes Peters Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: About The Symbolism Message-ID: <20001121153239.C26553@futuresouth.com> References: <20001119224911.V18037@fw.wintelcom.net> <3A1948A3.FFEAF4F3@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3A1948A3.FFEAF4F3@softweyr.com>; from wes@softweyr.com on Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 08:52:03AM -0700 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Moved to -chat before someone lynches me for offtopic] On Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 08:52:03AM -0700, a little birdie told me that Wes Peters remarked > > If you look at our cute little daemon and see "the devil", that is your > problem. We can help you overcome that problem, but only if you want to > overcome it. You should keep in mind that Lucifer doesn't look like the > demon of Greek mythology, he looks like a politician. Just out of curiosity, would this be any politician in particular, or just a generic one? ;> -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 21 13:39:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pike.osd.bsdi.com (pike.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37DAD37B4C5 for ; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:39:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@jhb-laptop.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.241]) by pike.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id eALLdh023701; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:39:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200011212129.OAA37809@harmony.village.org> Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:39:52 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Warner Losh , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/kern kern_ktr.c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 21-Nov-00 Warner Losh wrote: > In message John Baldwin writes: >: Oh geez. That should be 'Noticed by: jlemon'. I guess the voices are >: getting >: a bit too rambunctious. > > It could be worse. You could be talking about yourself in the third > person. Warner hates it when he does that. Well, I'm sure Warner will have a private discussion with Warner about doing that in public. I wonder how the voices do their locking... > Warner -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 21 13:42: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FF1337B479; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:42:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eALLfxQ32582; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 14:41:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id OAA37905; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 14:41:59 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <200011212141.OAA37905@harmony.village.org> To: John Baldwin Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/kern kern_ktr.c Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:39:52 PST." References: Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 14:41:59 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message John Baldwin writes: : On 21-Nov-00 Warner Losh wrote: : > In message John Baldwin writes: : >: Oh geez. That should be 'Noticed by: jlemon'. I guess the voices are : >: getting : >: a bit too rambunctious. : > : > It could be worse. You could be talking about yourself in the third : > person. Warner hates it when he does that. : : Well, I'm sure Warner will have a private discussion with Warner about doing : that in public. Warner will do that only if Warner notices. : I wonder how the voices do their locking... Warner Speculates that Warner's voices don't do locking. Warner P.S. "Oh, that was Zathras, not Zathras..." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 21 13:58: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pike.osd.bsdi.com (pike.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5812F37B4F9 for ; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:57:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@jhb-laptop.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.241]) by pike.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id eALLuW024224; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:56:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200011212141.OAA37905@harmony.village.org> Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:56:41 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Warner Losh Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/kern kern_ktr.c Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 21-Nov-00 Warner Losh wrote: > In message John Baldwin writes: >: Well, I'm sure Warner will have a private discussion with Warner about doing >: that in public. > > Warner will do that only if Warner notices. > >: I wonder how the voices do their locking... > > Warner Speculates that Warner's voices don't do locking. John thinJohn's voices are too inks that the consefficient to useole driver doesn't ha sleep locks and endve any lock up sping yeinning a lott. . fatal double fault eip = 0x000000 ebp = %62F k epomn e > Warner > > P.S. "Oh, that was Zathras, not Zathras..." -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 21 15:30: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pike.osd.bsdi.com (pike.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4607A37B4D7; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 15:30:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@jhb-laptop.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.241]) by pike.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id eALNTX027614; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 15:29:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200011212237.OAA00557@spammie.svbug.com> Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 15:29:43 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: opentrax@email.com Subject: Re: Dedicated disks (was: Dangerously Dedicated) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, msmith@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 21-Nov-00 opentrax@email.com wrote: > > > On 20 Nov, Mike Smith wrote: >>> Let me state this one more time loudly for those calling themselves boot >>> code experts. THE PARTITION TABLE IN THE MBR IS NOT DEALT WITH BY THE >>> BIOS, >>> BIOSES THAT TRY TO MAKE HEADS OR TALES OF PARTITION TABLES ARE TECHNICALLY >>> BROKEN AND VIOLATE IBM AT COMPATIBILITY. If you doubt this go read about >>> BIOS service 19H, IPL load. >> >> It doesn't matter how loudly you shout, or what exactly you stuff in your >> ears. The fact is that this code exists, is part of the de-facto >> platform standard, and has to be dealt with as such. >> >> You are welcome to continue to dual-boot FreeBSD and PC-DOS 2.0. In the >> meantime, the rest of us are living in the real world, and dealing with >> real-world problems. Please let us get on with what has to be done. >> Thankyou. >> > Has it occured to you that perhaps there are people that really, really > want DD? People really, really want cold fusion, too, but that desire doesn't mean doodly squat. Please don't enter the discussion unless you have something remotely useful to say. Many of us have spent quite some time thinking about all the real world issues involved here. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 21 15:56:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from spammie.svbug.com (mg128-177.ricochet.net [204.179.128.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E94037B4CF; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 15:56:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from spammie.svbug.com (localhost.mozie.org [127.0.0.1]) by spammie.svbug.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA00656; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 15:55:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jessem@spammie.svbug.com) Message-Id: <200011212355.PAA00656@spammie.svbug.com> Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 15:55:47 -0800 (PST) From: opentrax@email.com Reply-To: opentrax@email.com Subject: Re: Dedicated disks (was: Dangerously Dedicated) To: jhb@FreeBSD.org Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, msmith@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 21 Nov, John Baldwin wrote: > > On 21-Nov-00 opentrax@email.com wrote: >> >> >> On 20 Nov, Mike Smith wrote: >>>> Let me state this one more time loudly for those calling themselves boot >>>> code experts. THE PARTITION TABLE IN THE MBR IS NOT DEALT WITH BY THE >>>> BIOS, >>>> BIOSES THAT TRY TO MAKE HEADS OR TALES OF PARTITION TABLES ARE TECHNICALLY >>>> BROKEN AND VIOLATE IBM AT COMPATIBILITY. If you doubt this go read about >>>> BIOS service 19H, IPL load. >>> >>> It doesn't matter how loudly you shout, or what exactly you stuff in your >>> ears. The fact is that this code exists, is part of the de-facto >>> platform standard, and has to be dealt with as such. >>> >>> You are welcome to continue to dual-boot FreeBSD and PC-DOS 2.0. In the >>> meantime, the rest of us are living in the real world, and dealing with >>> real-world problems. Please let us get on with what has to be done. >>> Thankyou. >>> >> Has it occured to you that perhaps there are people that really, really >> want DD? > > People really, really want cold fusion, too, but that desire doesn't mean > doodly squat. Please don't enter the discussion unless you have something > remotely useful to say. Many of us have spent quite some time thinking about > all the real world issues involved here. > Mr. Baldwin. With regards to your response, it draws little relevance to the topic at hand. I'm asking a question with the assumption that, perhaps, those arguing for removing DD can be specific. I could take the posteir (sp?) similar to yours, but I'm working on restraint. :-) I can see many people are passionate about this topic. So, spelling out the issues and facts might help remedy this difficult situtation. Per your comment, about spending "some time thinking about all the..", I've assumed as much. I'm not considerig your opinion in this matter any more _or_ less than anyones. (That includes Mr. Smith). So I would consider it a favor, if perhaps you could illiminate the issue a bit more. For your reference, our position is that we need DD. We see the alternatives, most we don't like. Yes, we can run a "booteasy" style booter to help certain issues. However, we don't sell to newbies and our systems are run by professionals. With that consideration, wouldn't it make good sense to use DD? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 21 15:57:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from echunga.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E0B937B4CF; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 15:57:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by echunga.lemis.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id eALNqMi83180; Wed, 22 Nov 2000 10:22:22 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 10:22:22 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Warner Losh Cc: John Baldwin , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/kern kern_ktr.c Message-ID: <20001122102222.B71779@echunga.lemis.com> References: <200011212141.OAA37905@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200011212141.OAA37905@harmony.village.org>; from imp@village.org on Tue, Nov 21, 2000 at 02:41:59PM -0700 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 21 November 2000 at 14:41:59 -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > In message John Baldwin writes: >> On 21-Nov-00 Warner Losh wrote: >>> In message John Baldwin writes: >>>> Oh geez. That should be 'Noticed by: jlemon'. I guess the voices are >>>> getting >>>> a bit too rambunctious. >>> >>> It could be worse. You could be talking about yourself in the third >>> person. Warner hates it when he does that. >> >> Well, I'm sure Warner will have a private discussion with Warner about doing >> that in public. > > Warner will do that only if Warner notices. > >> I wonder how the voices do their locking... > > Warner Speculates that Warner's voices don't do locking. /me watches Warner's voice trash Warner's voice. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 21 16: 7:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pike.osd.bsdi.com (pike.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D62137B4CF; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 16:07:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@jhb-laptop.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.241]) by pike.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id eAM07e029158; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 16:07:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200011212355.PAA00656@spammie.svbug.com> Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 16:07:50 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: opentrax@email.com Subject: Re: Dedicated disks (was: Dangerously Dedicated) Cc: msmith@FreeBSD.org, chat@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 21-Nov-00 opentrax@email.com wrote: > > > On 21 Nov, John Baldwin wrote: >> >> On 21-Nov-00 opentrax@email.com wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 20 Nov, Mike Smith wrote: >>>>> Let me state this one more time loudly for those calling themselves boot >>>>> code experts. THE PARTITION TABLE IN THE MBR IS NOT DEALT WITH BY THE >>>>> BIOS, >>>>> BIOSES THAT TRY TO MAKE HEADS OR TALES OF PARTITION TABLES ARE >>>>> TECHNICALLY >>>>> BROKEN AND VIOLATE IBM AT COMPATIBILITY. If you doubt this go read about >>>>> BIOS service 19H, IPL load. >>>> >>>> It doesn't matter how loudly you shout, or what exactly you stuff in your >>>> ears. The fact is that this code exists, is part of the de-facto >>>> platform standard, and has to be dealt with as such. >>>> >>>> You are welcome to continue to dual-boot FreeBSD and PC-DOS 2.0. In the >>>> meantime, the rest of us are living in the real world, and dealing with >>>> real-world problems. Please let us get on with what has to be done. >>>> Thankyou. >>>> >>> Has it occured to you that perhaps there are people that really, really >>> want DD? >> >> People really, really want cold fusion, too, but that desire doesn't mean >> doodly squat. Please don't enter the discussion unless you have something >> remotely useful to say. Many of us have spent quite some time thinking >> about >> all the real world issues involved here. >> > Mr. Baldwin. With regards to your response, it draws little relevance to > the topic at hand. I'm asking a question with the assumption that, > perhaps, those arguing for removing DD can be specific. I could take the > posteir (sp?) similar to yours, but I'm working on restraint. :-) > > I can see many people are passionate about this topic. So, spelling out > the issues and facts might help remedy this difficult situtation. > Per your comment, about spending "some time thinking about all the..", > I've assumed as much. I'm not considerig your opinion in this matter > any more _or_ less than anyones. (That includes Mr. Smith). The only problem is that the issues _have_ been discussed in excruciating detail many times. I suggest you make use of the mail archives. > alternatives, most we don't like. Yes, we can run a "booteasy" > style booter to help certain issues. However, we don't sell to > newbies and our systems are run by professionals. > > With that consideration, wouldn't it make good sense to use DD? Considering that some SCSI BIOS's crash during boot (even if they _aren't_ the boot disk) if you use DD, no. We shouldn't be blowing users feet off for them quite so badly. People should not use DD mode unless their machine will not boot without it. It is not safe with respect to various BIOS's and other 3rd party utilities. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 21 18: 5:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f90.hotmail.com [216.32.181.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B95937B4CF for ; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 18:05:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 18:05:30 -0800 Received: from 167.216.157.206 by lw2fd.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 22 Nov 2000 02:05:30 GMT X-Originating-IP: [167.216.157.206] From: "Ceren Ercen" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Response to: NOTICE OF REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 02:05:30 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Nov 2000 02:05:30.0763 (UTC) FILETIME=[B0C6FDB0:01C05428] Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (for kkenn, and the canadians.) DATE: 11/15/2000 (that's 15/11/2000 to you) TO: United Kingdom FROM: The United States of America SUBJECT: Response to: NOTICE OF REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE To the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, We welcome your concern about our electoral process. It must be exciting for you to see a real Republic in action, even if from a distance. As always we're amused by your quaint belief that you're actually a world power. The sun never sets on the British Empire! Right-o chum! However, we regretfully have to decline your offer for intervention. On the other hand, it would be amusing to see you try to enforce your new policy (for the 96.3% of you that seem to have forgotten that you have little to no real power). After much deliberation, we have decided to continue our tradition as the longest running democratic republic. It seems that switching to a monarchy is in fact considered a "backwards step" by the majority of the world. To help you rise from your current anachronistic status, we have compiled a series of helpful suggestions that we hope you adopt: 1. Realize that language is an organic structure, and that you aren't always correct in your pronunciation or spelling. Let's use your "aluminium" example. Sir Humphrey Davy (an Englishman) invented the name "aluminum" (note spelling) for the metal. However, in common usage the name evolved into "aluminium" to match the naming convention of other elements. In 1925 the United States decided to switch back to the original spelling and pronunciation of the word, at which point we dominated the aluminum industry. We'd also like to point out that the process of actually producing aluminum was developed by an American and a Frenchman (not an Englishman). However, we'd like to thank you for the Oxford English Dictionary. It's an interesting collection, considering that over 10,000 of the words in the original edition were submitted by a crazy American civil-war veteran called Dr. William Charles Minor. 2. Learn to distinguish the American and Canadian accents, and then we'll talk about the English and Australian accent issue. 3. Review your basic arithmetic. (Hint 100 - 98.85 = 1.15 and 100 - 97.85 = 2.15) 4. If you want English actors as good guys, then make your own movies. Don't rely on us for your modern popular culture. We liked "Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking Barrels," "Trainspotting," and "The Full Monty." We've also heard good things about this "Billy Elliot." But one good movie a year doesn't exactly make a cultural powerhouse. However, you're doing pretty well with music, so keep up the good work on that front. 5. It's inefficient to have a national anthem that changes its title whenever your monarch dies. Let's not forget that your national anthem has an extremely boring tune. We suggest switching to that Rule Brittania ditty, it's toetapping. Or maybe Elton John could adapt "Candle In The Wind" again for you guys. 6. Improve at your national sport. Football? Soccer? This just in: United States gets fourth place in men's soccer at the 2000 Summer Olympics. United Kingdom? Not even close. By the way, impressive showing at Euro 2000. You almost managed to get through the tournament without having your fans start an international incident. 7. Learn how to cook. England has some top notch candy. Salt 'n' Vinegar chips are quite yummy. However, there's a reason why the best food in your country is Indian or Chinese. Your contributions to the culinary arts are soggy beans, warm beer, and spotted dick. Perhaps when you finally realize the French aren't the spawn of satan they'll teach you how to cook. 8. You're doing a terrible job at understanding cars. The obvious error is that you drive on the wrong side of the road. A second problem is pricing, it's cheaper to buy a car in Belgium and ship it to England than to buy a car in England. On the other hand, we like Jaguars and Aston Martins. That's why we bought the companies. 9. We'll tell you who killed JFK when you apologize for "Teletubbies." Thank you for your time. You can now return to watching bad Australian soap operas. p.s. - regarding WW2: You're Welcome. _____________________________________________ _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 21 20:10: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (cm-24-246-28-166.toney.mediacom.ispchannel.com [24.246.28.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A677137B4CF for ; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 20:09:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eAM49dS98384; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 22:09:40 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Message-Id: <200011220409.eAM49dS98384@grumpy.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.2 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 To: seti@mips.inka.de (SETI@home) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Jordan Hubbard on Darwin In-reply-to: Message from seti@mips.inka.de (SETI@home) of "Tue, 21 Nov 2000 18:23:35 GMT." <8veej7$23uv$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 22:09:39 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org SETI@home writes: [...] > pax as tar doesn't support all of GNU tar's bloa^Wfeatures, though, Several features of pax make it worth having in the toolbox. The -t option to reset access time after reading is nice to have. The -rw mode for copying files around is elegant. I miss having rmt functions for remote tape, and would rather have that thru ssh anyway. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 21 20:26:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from echunga.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93F2E37B479 for ; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 20:26:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by echunga.lemis.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id eAM4KvF84966; Wed, 22 Nov 2000 14:50:57 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 14:50:57 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: Neil Blakey-Milner , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Ridding ourselves of GNU software (was: Jordan Hubbard on Darwin) Message-ID: <20001122145057.F83853@echunga.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001118142924.00cb6850@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20001118142924.00cb6850@localhost> <20001119050641.A4791@mithrandr.moria.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20001119182538.043874b0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001119182538.043874b0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 06:57:33PM -0700 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 19 November 2000 at 18:57:33 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 08:06 PM 11/18/2000, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > >> Ok Brett, we'll just force Jordan to lie next time. Thanks for the >> advice. Here we were innocently thinking that it was good to tell the >> truth, and evil to lie and obscure the truth, but luckily you're here to >> set us right. > > I would not advocate lying; that is a trait of both the FSF and Microsoft, > and FreeBSD should not practice it. *sigh* Brett, many would accuse you of lying with that statement, that it must be against your better judgement. I suspect, however, that you believe it. It still doesn't help us. >> While I dislike bash, many others don't, > > Fine. But it is not appropriate for a leader of a BSD development > project to advocate the use of GPLed software. > >> and GNU tar is pretty much standard for a Unix system. > > If GNU tar is a "standard," it is through the negligence of the BSD > world. We must fight this and develop equivalent or superior BSD-licensed > software. If we do not, we are dependent upon an organization which > would like nothing better than to destroy us! (And could, easily, by > changing the next version of the GPL.) Brett, GNU tar is *really* not very good. I'd love to see a better replacement. If you were to go and create one, people would love you for it. And don't say "I can't program well enough"; you can learn. >> Your posts about the evils of the FSF, GPL, and GNU products have >> lost FreeBSD more users and credibility than your articles, though. > > Actually, the only thing that has cost FreeBSD credibility is when > people WITHIN the FreeBSD community bash me for those postings. They > see this as portending a lack of unity and of perspective. Surely the > BSD community should be unanimous in opposing a group that seeks to > destroy it and the good it has done! I think we would be. Your mistake is to assume that we agree with your views on this matter. > We really need to unify in opposition to the GPL and purge it from the > code base. Yes, including the toolchain. If you lead well, people will follow you. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 21 20:26:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-63-202-178-138.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.202.178.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85FCE37B4CF for ; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 20:26:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.0/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eAM4XwF00804; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 20:33:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com) Message-Id: <200011220433.eAM4XwF00804@mass.osd.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: opentrax@email.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dedicated disks (was: Dangerously Dedicated) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 21 Nov 2000 14:37:34 PST." <200011212237.OAA00557@spammie.svbug.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 20:33:58 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> You are welcome to continue to dual-boot FreeBSD and PC-DOS 2.0. In the >> meantime, the rest of us are living in the real world, and dealing with >> real-world problems. Please let us get on with what has to be done. >> Thankyou. >> > Has it occured to you that perhaps there are people that really, really > want DD? People want fairings too. It doesn't matter. There will be no DD mode. -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] V I C T O R Y N O T V E N G E A N C E To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 21 20:29:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72B9B37B4C5 for ; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 20:29:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 13yRPO-0000BF-00; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 21:21:22 -0700 Message-ID: <3A1B49C2.3AFE2A06@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 21:21:22 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Josef Karthauser Cc: Sheldon Hearn , Jun Kuriyama , FreeBSD Developers Subject: Re: not hundreds of individuals References: <7mu291towr.wl@waterblue.imgsrc.co.jp> <16377.974815089@axl.fw.uunet.co.za> <20001121150045.L97275@pavilion.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Josef Karthauser wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 21, 2000 at 03:58:09PM +0200, Sheldon Hearn wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, 21 Nov 2000 22:50:28 +0900, Jun Kuriyama wrote: > > > > > I can fix easy typos. But it is difficult for me to construct good > > > English sentence like that. :-) > > > > > > So I hope someone (usually writing English) to write it... > > > > FreeBSD represents the cumulative work of many hundreds, if not > > thousands, of individuals from around the world who have worked very > > hard to bring you this release. For a complete list of FreeBSD > > project staffers, please see: > > FreeBSD represents the cumulative work of millions, if not billions, > of trained monkeys from around the world who have worked very very > very hard and eaten lots of peanuts to bring you this release. Monkeys? Monkeys! Damn, I thought it was weasels! -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 21 22: 6:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 053B137B4C5 for ; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 22:06:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8130C6E2635 for ; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 22:06:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 13ySrU-0000Cb-00; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 22:54:28 -0700 Message-ID: <3A1B5F94.3F6B4750@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 22:54:28 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: About The Symbolism References: <20001119224911.V18037@fw.wintelcom.net> <3A1948A3.FFEAF4F3@softweyr.com> <20001121153239.C26553@futuresouth.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Matthew D. Fuller" wrote: > > [Moved to -chat before someone lynches me for offtopic] > > On Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 08:52:03AM -0700, a little birdie told me > that Wes Peters remarked > > > > If you look at our cute little daemon and see "the devil", that is your > > problem. We can help you overcome that problem, but only if you want to > > overcome it. You should keep in mind that Lucifer doesn't look like the > > demon of Greek mythology, he looks like a politician. > > Just out of curiosity, would this be any politician in particular, or > just a generic one? ;> Just about all of them, as far as I can tell. A recent conversation in a convenience store: "You're running for the legislature? You don't look like a politician!" "I'm not a politician, I'm a Libertarian." ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 21 23:40:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from urth.vastmind.org (urth.powersurfr.com [24.108.7.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85A7537B4D7 for ; Tue, 21 Nov 2000 23:40:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from urth.powersurfr.com (j@urth.powersurfr.com [24.108.7.46]) by urth.vastmind.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eAM7eK631221; Wed, 22 Nov 2000 00:40:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from j@vastmind.org) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 00:40:19 -0700 (MST) From: Jason Spencer X-Sender: j@localhost To: Gregory Sutter Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL rant number 31391 (was: Jordan Hubbard on Darwin) In-Reply-To: <20001121131403.B30802@klapaucius.zer0.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 21 Nov 2000, Gregory Sutter wrote: >On 2000-11-21 13:54 -0500, Technical Information wrote: >> software is almost free; you can download and use a fully functional >> version of it as long as you're willing to put up with advertisements >> during its use. Do we recognize nearly free software in any special way in >> this camp? > >Adware, especially closed-source adware, is no more free than the >latest cruft from Microsoft. It's just another form of commercial >software. > >Greg Well, whatever works. Qualcomm maintains a major POP server which is free and open-source. And they distribute Eudora which has three modes, one free, one with ads and one for a fee with no ads. The free version is the exact same binary--same guts, same bugfixes--minus a few features. And it's a damn good program. I have not seen anything comparable, free or not, on any platform. (I'm talking of the Macintosh version here.) So you can take your pick: live without a few (in this case fairly trivial) features and use it for free, donate your eyeballs and watch a few ads, or donate some cold hard cash and be done with it. FreeBSD and it's ilk stay alive through donation as well. In this case it's more through donation of time than money. But this sort of thing is only an option to some of us. As far as the availability of the source goes, no one but dorks like us really care if the source is available anyway--perhaps they should, but you've got to look at the big picture. We don't need to draw a line in the sand here. We all hate big brutish MS apps with their bluescreens and secrity holes, but that's just one end of the spectrum. Sure, I'd love it if it was all free and open--ready to mold at will--but we'll never get there if we become bigots about it. It's the same way with licences. If I were to write a nice bit of networking code, I'd be sure to slap a BSD-style licence on it. That's the least restrictive way of getting it out there. And everyone benefits. If I were to write say, a fancy MP3 jukebox thing that controls your playlist by clicking on thumnails of your CD collection, I'd GPL it. I wouldn't want someone to candy coat it and sell it to millions of assorted dupes out there. The GPL would assert my freedom to decide not to make money off of that code. (At the same time, if I got a bunch of graphic artists together and made a really great game, I'd probably try to sell it.) It all comes down to how you want to frame your freedom. Sure the GPL is kind of infective, so what. For the front-end, high up user level type stuff, that might be just the property you're looking for. It's kind of unfortunate that GNU tar is the best tool for the job since that's more foundational, but it's not really that big of a deal. -j. (ps. Okay you header freaks, I use Eudora for all of my mail except a few mailing lists :). The rest sits comfortably on my Mac laptop... one day I'd like to see FreeBSD running on hardware as nice as that. Before you start yapping, you'd need: on board SCSI and IDE, mature power management, a chip that doesn't burn my crotch, support for overlapping desktops at differing bit depths....) (pps. Uh-oh, you've got a Mac dork in your midst. Nahhh, all OSen suck. I've never met one that could suit all my needs, which is why I continue to use at least three a day--even if the one from Redmond is just for cash.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 22 5:16:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from spammie.svbug.com (mg134-015.ricochet.net [204.179.134.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FCAC37B4CF; Wed, 22 Nov 2000 05:16:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from spammie.svbug.com (localhost.mozie.org [127.0.0.1]) by spammie.svbug.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA00484; Wed, 22 Nov 2000 05:16:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jessem@spammie.svbug.com) Message-Id: <200011221316.FAA00484@spammie.svbug.com> Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 05:16:02 -0800 (PST) From: opentrax@email.com Reply-To: opentrax@email.com Subject: Re: Dedicated disks (was: Dangerously Dedicated) To: jhb@FreeBSD.org Cc: msmith@FreeBSD.org, chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 21 Nov, John Baldwin wrote: > >> I can see many people are passionate about this topic. So, spelling out >> the issues and facts might help remedy this difficult situtation. >> Per your comment, about spending "some time thinking about all the..", >> I've assumed as much. I'm not considerig your opinion in this matter >> any more _or_ less than anyones. (That includes Mr. Smith). > > The only problem is that the issues _have_ been discussed in excruciating > detail many times. I suggest you make use of the mail archives. > Mr. Smith, if the issues have been hashed out as you say, the perhaps a document can be pointed that outlines these issue clearly. Your suggestion, while a fine one, has un-seen harm of people associating (harsh) discussion on the matter, rather than seeing the bluk of the matter. I've stated my opinion, that does not lessen yours. Could I expect that you might be able outline yours points in an enumerate list or bulletize format? >> alternatives, most we don't like. Yes, we can run a "booteasy" >> style booter to help certain issues. However, we don't sell to >> newbies and our systems are run by professionals. >> >> With that consideration, wouldn't it make good sense to use DD? > > Considering that some SCSI BIOS's crash during boot (even if they _aren't_ the > boot disk) if you use DD, no. We shouldn't be blowing users feet off for them > quite so badly. People should not use DD mode unless their machine will not > boot without it. It is not safe with respect to various BIOS's and other 3rd > party utilities. > I see your points. Could I ask about more facts relating to this? And if so, and those facts happen to be in the mailing list, I would be happy to present your facts and arguements on www.svbug.com. As such, other people could add facts - as they see them. Do you consider this method to be of benefit to your points? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 22 5:53:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from spammie.svbug.com (mg134-015.ricochet.net [204.179.134.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C32CA37B4D7; Wed, 22 Nov 2000 05:53:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from spammie.svbug.com (localhost.mozie.org [127.0.0.1]) by spammie.svbug.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA00554; Wed, 22 Nov 2000 05:52:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jessem@spammie.svbug.com) Message-Id: <200011221352.FAA00554@spammie.svbug.com> Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 05:52:58 -0800 (PST) From: opentrax@email.com Reply-To: opentrax@email.com Subject: Re: Dedicated disks (was: Dangerously Dedicated) To: msmith@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200011220433.eAM4XwF00804@mass.osd.bsdi.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 21 Nov, Mike Smith wrote: >>> You are welcome to continue to dual-boot FreeBSD and PC-DOS 2.0. In the >>> meantime, the rest of us are living in the real world, and dealing with >>> real-world problems. Please let us get on with what has to be done. >>> Thankyou. >>> >> Has it occured to you that perhaps there are people that really, really >> want DD? > > People want fairings too. It doesn't matter. There will be no DD mode. > My offer stands with regard to posting information SVBUG. Jessem. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 22 6:15:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34B0D37B4C5 for ; Wed, 22 Nov 2000 06:15:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA39516; Wed, 22 Nov 2000 15:15:52 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: ftp7.de.freebsd.org From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 22 Nov 2000 15:15:51 +0100 Message-ID: Lines: 7 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Who's responsible for that server? Whatever ftpd it's running is sending a 220 instead of a 421 when it can't resolve the IP of the client. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 22 6:18:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 324BD37B4D7 for ; Wed, 22 Nov 2000 06:18:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA39538; Wed, 22 Nov 2000 15:18:25 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ftp7.de.freebsd.org References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 22 Nov 2000 15:18:24 +0100 In-Reply-To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav's message of "22 Nov 2000 15:15:51 +0100" Message-ID: Lines: 24 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > Who's responsible for that server? Whatever ftpd it's running is > sending a 220 instead of a 421 when it can't resolve the IP of the > client. Ooh, and I forgot - it's sending an unterminated multi-line response, to boot. des@aes ~% telnet ftp7.de.FreeBSD.org ftp Trying 139.174.2.36... Connected to ftp.tu-clausthal.de. Escape character is '^]'. 220-Your host 194.19.8.177 is unknown to the domain name service. Access denied. Connection closed by foreign host. The correct response would be: 421 Your host blah blah. Access denied. (note: no hyphen after the error code) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 22 7:41:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from spammie.svbug.com (mg134-015.ricochet.net [204.179.134.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A78137B4C5; Wed, 22 Nov 2000 07:41:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from spammie.svbug.com (localhost.mozie.org [127.0.0.1]) by spammie.svbug.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA00692; Wed, 22 Nov 2000 07:40:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jessem@spammie.svbug.com) Message-Id: <200011221540.HAA00692@spammie.svbug.com> Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 07:40:38 -0800 (PST) From: opentrax@email.com Reply-To: opentrax@email.com Subject: Re: New security policy for FreeBSD 3.x To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: imp@village.org, security-officer@FreeBSD.ORG, arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <38731.974906093@axl.fw.uunet.co.za> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 22 Nov, Sheldon Hearn wrote: > > [Cross-post to -arch is ridiculous, follow-up to -chat] > > On Wed, 22 Nov 2000 07:06:32 PST, opentrax@email.com wrote: > >> Thank you for taking the time to explain this Warner. >> The original advisory was not as clear. However, I still fell >> a bit confused. > > Probably because you haven't read > http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/cutting-edge.html . > > Once you've read it, you're welcome to send patches for improving it. > In fact, the documentation project folks are so fanatical that they'll > usually accept contributions that are not in patch format and work your > stuff into the files manually. > > But keep in mind that no matter how good you help us make the > documentation, there'll always be some idiot out there who refuses to > read it. > I appoligize for not being clear on this, but 'cutting-edge' has never been my intent. Nor, do I see this as an item for inclusion in the handbook(but I should take that up with 'doc'). :-) Security by most measure sits in it's own space. That is, if a security breach exists, then it must be dealt with immediately (if not sooner). However, on that same line, the change in policy, as this current one is, tends toward NO change. That is, the policy is "we're interest in the change, but not at the cost of delaying a change that must be expedited". So in this case, we error on the side of caution. Discontinuing the rant, the website needs better organization, but again I know I must take this up with 'docs'. Thanks again, Jessem. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 22 8:16:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.opus.co.tt (mail.opus.co.tt [196.3.136.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EC7C37B4D7 for ; Wed, 22 Nov 2000 08:16:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from distance10 (unverified [196.3.136.186]) by mail.opus.co.tt (Vircom SMTPRS 4.3.183) with SMTP id for ; Wed, 22 Nov 2000 12:10:50 -0400 Message-ID: <001601c0549f$0e6b9a40$280101c8@distance10> From: "Dale Chulhan - Work" To: Subject: DHCP Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 12:12:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org P: I recently discovered that I now have two dhcp servers in the same broadcast domain and I was wondering how I could ensure ( short of splitting the BD into two ) that the machines on Floor 1 & 2 get their addresses from server1 and from 3 & 4 get theirs from server2 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 22 12:31:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop2pub.verizon.net (smtppop2pub.gte.net [206.46.170.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D18C737B479 for ; Wed, 22 Nov 2000 12:31:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-144-216.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.144.216]) by smtppop2pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id OAA60442078 Wed, 22 Nov 2000 14:29:48 -0600 (CST) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA03885; Wed, 22 Nov 2000 12:30:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 12:30:33 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Clark Message-Id: <200011222030.MAA03885@gte.net> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, dchulhan@uwi.tt Subject: Re: DHCP In-Reply-To: <001601c0549f$0e6b9a40$280101c8@distance10> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org A transparent bridge, with dummynet setup to slow dhcp requests? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 22 14:16:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E688C37B4CF for ; Wed, 22 Nov 2000 14:16:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA09137; Wed, 22 Nov 2000 15:14:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAArBa4Ur; Wed Nov 22 15:13:56 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA04727; Wed, 22 Nov 2000 15:15:48 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200011222215.PAA04727@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: GPL rant number 31391 (was: Jordan Hubbard on Darwin) To: j@vastmind.org (Jason Spencer) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 22:15:48 +0000 (GMT) Cc: gsutter@zer0.org (Gregory Sutter), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jason Spencer" at Nov 22, 2000 12:40:19 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Qualcomm maintains a major POP server which is free and open-source. Actually, it's poorly maintained. It has a number of serious bugs, which make life difficult for people writing POP clients, starting with the way the EOL looks following a terminating "." after a RETR. Patches have been submitted for this several time. Unless your code allows for this, it may have a hard time RETR'ing mesages from it. [ ... "ad-ware" ... ] I have no problem with their mail client distribution model; I would changes dome defaults and some features of the client, were I in charge of it (like the line wrap thing and the use of non-standard HTML), but these are all cosmetic or other minor defects. [ ...source availability for the client ... ] The only thing that makes me want this is the lack of support for the client on some platforms, e.g. FreeBSD. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 22 14:47:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA31137B4CF for ; Wed, 22 Nov 2000 14:47:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA19590; Wed, 22 Nov 2000 15:45:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAMWaOmM; Wed Nov 22 15:45:09 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA06411; Wed, 22 Nov 2000 15:47:10 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200011222247.PAA06411@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: DHCP To: dchulhan@uwi.tt (Dale Chulhan - Work) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 22:47:10 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <001601c0549f$0e6b9a40$280101c8@distance10> from "Dale Chulhan - Work" at Nov 22, 2000 12:12:46 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > P: I recently discovered that I now have two dhcp servers in the same > broadcast domain and I was wondering how I could ensure ( short of splitting > the BD into two ) that the machines on Floor 1 & 2 get their addresses from > server1 and from 3 & 4 get theirs from server2 Put a router between them. You will still get the addresses assigned by the other, if you are running a DHCP forwarder, in the case that the first one goes down. If you don't want this feature, don't run the broadcast forwarder (which will only forward on second and subsequent requests, as long as your request packets aren't malformed). DHCP was never meant to be constrained by "workgroup" type semantics (e.g. where you have a fictional boundary instead of an actual network broadcast boundary, like a router). The problem is communicating the current lease-list between the failed machine and the machine doing the takeover. Doing simple broadcast snoops is not sufficient for this task. Ideally, you would install IPv6, and do IPv6 stateless autoconfiguration, and turn off your DHCP servers. If you are running a network behind a NAT, and can live with a clas C (in "link.local"), then you could use IPv4 stateless autoconfiguration (supported by Windows 98 and above) to just grab addresses for your workstations. Unfortunately, unlike all recent Macintosh machines, Windows does not ship with SLPv2 (Service Location Protocol) support, so locating your default DNS server and default route will be problematic, without DHCP, or static configuration of some of your workstation settings. If your workstations are FreeBSD boxes, turn on RIP (internally only), and you'll have no problem. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 22 14:54:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 094A437B4CF; Wed, 22 Nov 2000 14:54:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA13206; Wed, 22 Nov 2000 15:50:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAASWaGKz; Wed Nov 22 15:50:21 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA06600; Wed, 22 Nov 2000 15:53:53 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200011222253.PAA06600@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Dedicated disks (was: Dangerously Dedicated) To: opentrax@email.com Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 22:53:53 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jhb@FreeBSD.ORG, msmith@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200011221316.FAA00484@spammie.svbug.com> from "opentrax@email.com" at Nov 22, 2000 05:16:02 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ ... on the impending death of "Dangerously Dedicated" ... ] > > The only problem is that the issues _have_ been discussed in excruciating > > detail many times. I suggest you make use of the mail archives. > > Mr. Smith, if the issues have been hashed out as you say, the perhaps > a document can be pointed that outlines these issue clearly. > Your suggestion, while a fine one, has un-seen harm of people > associating (harsh) discussion on the matter, rather than seeing > the bluk of the matter. I've stated my opinion, that does not > lessen yours. Could I expect that you might be able outline > yours points in an enumerate list or bulletize format? For: o In "Dangerously Dedicated" mode, some laptops will SPAM your FreeBSD partition when told to "suspend to disk" o You can not easily add another OS to an existing system, without a full backup and restore o Commerical boot managers have problems with it; this is an issue when you have FreeBSD on one "Dangerously Dedicated" disk, and anohter OS on a second disk o Commercial partition manipulation tools can not move disk contents around opaquely; this would still be a problem for OSs which hard code their kernel location in their second stage boot (does NetBSD still do this?), but would not be a problem for FreeBSD. Example: the program "fips" can move Linux parititons around; the commercvial program "Partition Magic" from Power Quest supports Linux, but does not support FreeBSD (they go so far as to actually support EXT2FS manipulation). o An increasing number of BIOS will divide by 0 when they are attempting to implement LBA addressing. These systems simply _can not boot_, given FreeBSD's fake DOS partition table in its disklabel o The FreeBSD fake DOS partition table does not pass a number BIOS-based self-consistency checks (it needs to be fixed -- feel free to bell the cat), and so systems which use these checks in the BIOS to protect against boot sector virus infestation _can not boot_. Against: o Some fictitious geometries are fictionalized in the controller, and are opaque through one interface, but not another. The only way these can work is if the linear array of bytes starts at 0,0,0. Example: WD1007 ESDI controller, without jumper J2 set. These systems can be set up using non-default tools (in point of fact, I have _always_ had to use NetBSD's tools to setup these systems: FreeBSD's tools have _never_ worked for them, even in "Dangerously Dedicated" mode; after partitioning using NetBSD, FreeBSD can be isntalled normally). o Existing "Dangerously Dedicated" systems. This is really not an issue, since what is being removed is the ability to create them with the default tools, not the ability to boot from existing systems after an upgrade. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 22 18:36:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop2pub.verizon.net (smtppop2pub.gte.net [206.46.170.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEA3B37B4CF for ; Wed, 22 Nov 2000 18:36:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-144-216.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.144.216]) by smtppop2pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id UAA59535862 Wed, 22 Nov 2000 20:34:18 -0600 (CST) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA04238; Wed, 22 Nov 2000 18:35:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 18:35:02 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Clark Message-Id: <200011230235.SAA04238@gte.net> To: dchulhan@uwi.tt, tlambert@primenet.com Subject: Re: DHCP Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200011222247.PAA06411@usr05.primenet.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yeah Terry, But doesn't all that do exactly what Dale asked not to do? ie: Split the broadcast domain. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 22 23:29:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta5-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta5-rme.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F044E37B479; Wed, 22 Nov 2000 23:27:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from themail.com ([210.54.197.59]) by mta5-rme.xtra.co.nz with SMTP id <20001123072744.OAIP60565.mta5-rme.xtra.co.nz@themail.com>; Thu, 23 Nov 2000 20:27:44 +1300 From: "turehu" To: Subject: Accept credit cards on-line THE EASY WAY! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 08:24:45 +1300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20001123072744.OAIP60565.mta5-rme.xtra.co.nz@themail.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org No set up fees No monthly interest No minimum transaction fees The only charge is a small percentage of the cost of the transaction. You can not lose money! You only pay fees if you sell your product. Get in the act and launch your online bussiness which will work for you 24hrs a day, seven days a week and it is worldwide. Want to find out more? Go to: http://www.cyberturf.com/creditcard If this Email has reached you by mistake, we apologize. To remove your Email from the mailing list please send: jennifer@nottern.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 23 8: 8:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from spammie.svbug.com (mg134-015.ricochet.net [204.179.134.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C95D37B4D7; Thu, 23 Nov 2000 08:08:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from spammie.svbug.com (localhost.mozie.org [127.0.0.1]) by spammie.svbug.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA02277; Thu, 23 Nov 2000 08:08:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jessem@spammie.svbug.com) Message-Id: <200011231608.IAA02277@spammie.svbug.com> Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 08:08:15 -0800 (PST) From: opentrax@email.com Reply-To: opentrax@email.com Subject: Re: Dedicated disks (was: Dangerously Dedicated) To: tlambert@primenet.com Cc: jhb@FreeBSD.ORG, msmith@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, stable@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200011222253.PAA06600@usr05.primenet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry, your comments have been posted to: http://www.freebsd.org/projects/platform_issues/ddvsbios/index.html This URL is made freely available. Authors wishing to add comments are encourage to read the 'Restrictions for Inclusion' (the first paragraph). Authors do NOT have to email me for inclusion with regards to this issue, 1) if posted on 'stable' or 'arch' (I will add other ML later) 2) if posting contains 'Dedicated disks' or 'Dangreously Dedicated' in the subject line 3) if posting contains [SVBUG add me to ddvsbios] as the first line of the message (nothing else,please), and 4) if it has bullets (or points) with a for/against header. Points do not have to be balanced or neutral. Bias points are expected. Points do not have to be technical in nature, but must be at least technical in basis. Please note this is experimental and is subject to errors, arguments and unhappiness. Should this prove of some worth, this system could help relieve issues having been 'discussed in excruciating details'. Hence forth this system will be called 'Turkey Discussion' in honour of today. :-) best regards, Jessem. webmaster@svbug.com On 22 Nov, Terry Lambert wrote: > [ ... on the impending death of "Dangerously Dedicated" ... ] > >> > The only problem is that the issues _have_ been discussed in excruciating >> > detail many times. I suggest you make use of the mail archives. >> >> Mr. Smith, if the issues have been hashed out as you say, the perhaps >> a document can be pointed that outlines these issue clearly. >> Your suggestion, while a fine one, has un-seen harm of people >> associating (harsh) discussion on the matter, rather than seeing >> the bluk of the matter. I've stated my opinion, that does not >> lessen yours. Could I expect that you might be able outline >> yours points in an enumerate list or bulletize format? > > For: > > o In "Dangerously Dedicated" mode, some laptops will SPAM > your FreeBSD partition when told to "suspend to disk" > > o You can not easily add another OS to an existing system, > without a full backup and restore > > o Commerical boot managers have problems with it; this is > an issue when you have FreeBSD on one "Dangerously > Dedicated" disk, and anohter OS on a second disk > > o Commercial partition manipulation tools can not move > disk contents around opaquely; this would still be a > problem for OSs which hard code their kernel location > in their second stage boot (does NetBSD still do this?), > but would not be a problem for FreeBSD. Example: the > program "fips" can move Linux parititons around; the > commercvial program "Partition Magic" from Power Quest > supports Linux, but does not support FreeBSD (they go > so far as to actually support EXT2FS manipulation). > > o An increasing number of BIOS will divide by 0 when they > are attempting to implement LBA addressing. These > systems simply _can not boot_, given FreeBSD's fake DOS > partition table in its disklabel > > o The FreeBSD fake DOS partition table does not pass a > number BIOS-based self-consistency checks (it needs to > be fixed -- feel free to bell the cat), and so systems > which use these checks in the BIOS to protect against > boot sector virus infestation _can not boot_. > > > Against: > > o Some fictitious geometries are fictionalized in the > controller, and are opaque through one interface, but > not another. The only way these can work is if the > linear array of bytes starts at 0,0,0. Example: WD1007 > ESDI controller, without jumper J2 set. These systems > can be set up using non-default tools (in point of fact, > I have _always_ had to use NetBSD's tools to setup these > systems: FreeBSD's tools have _never_ worked for them, > even in "Dangerously Dedicated" mode; after partitioning > using NetBSD, FreeBSD can be isntalled normally). > > o Existing "Dangerously Dedicated" systems. This is really > not an issue, since what is being removed is the ability > to create them with the default tools, not the ability to > boot from existing systems after an upgrade. > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 23 13:36:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8268F37B479 for ; Thu, 23 Nov 2000 13:36:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from freebsd.demon.co.uk ([194.222.171.207] helo=chemicalterrorism.com) by anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 13z42R-0005yj-0V for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 23 Nov 2000 21:36:16 +0000 Received: from sycho (sycho.chemicalterrorism.com [192.168.0.2]) by chemicalterrorism.com (Postfix) with SMTP id E78B4F434 for ; Thu, 23 Nov 2000 21:36:12 +0000 (GMT) From: "Si." To: Subject: inetd internal ident and ppp+natd+ipfw Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 21:37:13 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, I'm currently having some issues with inetd's internal ident server. Heres what I would like it to do, although I'm unsure whether this possible. I want machines behind the nat to alway be given out the ident of bill. This is becuase I only irc from one machine behind the box. For real users on the natd/ppp server I would like the ident server to give out their real credentials. Heres how I've configured the machine:- From inetd.conf: auth stream tcp nowait root internal auth -r -f -n -t 30 -d bill From ipfw show: 10140 120 5224 allow tcp from any to any 113 in recv tun0 From uname -a: (Please excuse the domain, its a toy one here related to a style of music.) ;-) FreeBSD phat.chemicalterrorism.com 4.2-BETA FreeBSD 4.2-BETA #0: Sun Nov 5 02:39:37 GMT 2000 bill@phat.chemicalterrorism.com:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/chemical i386 Now when I use irc I get a correct ident, namely bill as the request is not local. But.... When I irc or use another service that requires ident authentication I still get bill, or after playing with the configuration I've found that the inetd is not or cannot resolve the local username. I'm now truely baffled by all of this and can only think its something to do with the way natd?!? rewrites the outgoing packets. Any help would be very much appreciated as I've now been playing with this for the last month on and off and its starting to drive me around the bend. All the best Si. -- Corporate Investor Technical Services - http://www.corporateinvestor.co.uk -== FreeBSD - "The Power To Serve" -=- http://www.uk.freebsd.org/ ==- Read error:2.7182818 (Excessive e) = format c: /install_freebsd_now -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 23 16:17:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BBFB37B4C5 for ; Thu, 23 Nov 2000 16:17:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA29741; Thu, 23 Nov 2000 17:13:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAwAaO.5; Thu Nov 23 17:13:29 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA02448; Thu, 23 Nov 2000 17:17:09 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200011240017.RAA02448@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: DHCP To: res03db2@gte.net (Robert Clark) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 00:17:09 +0000 (GMT) Cc: dchulhan@uwi.tt, tlambert@primenet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200011230235.SAA04238@gte.net> from "Robert Clark" at Nov 22, 2000 06:35:02 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Yeah Terry, > But doesn't all that do exactly what Dale asked not to > do? ie: Split the broadcast domain. No. He's asking to split the broadcast domain. He just wants it split based on what floor the machine is on, without really having to split it. With respect, a DHCP server can't know which floor a client is on, so that it can decide whether or not to respond to a packet based on where it came from. It's like buying 4 walkie-talkies from Radio Shack, all of which have crystals for CB channel 11, and then asking that two people using two of them on the second floor not interfere with the conversation between another two people using two of them on the first floor. Or it's like buying a 900MHz cordless phone, and expecting it to not work when you are upstairs and the base is downstairs. DHCP was never built to work this way. Technically, he could set up an explicit list of MAC addresses for each server, by going around to every machine and writing down its MAC address, and then explicitly configuring the DHCP via bootp options to only ever answer for a certain list of MAC addresses. If you are doing that, you might as well open the "network properties" instead of the "winipcfg" dialog, and explicitly configure them; you won't ever be able to move machines from one floor to the other, or buy new hardware and add it, without maintaining the MAC list on one or both DHCP servers. In other words, you statically configure the clients with the server information, or you statically configure the server with the client information -- or you split the broadcast domain. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 25 7:59:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 333B337B4CF; Sat, 25 Nov 2000 07:59:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from thelab.hub.org (CDR22-173.accesscable.net [24.138.22.173]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ACC56E2ABB; Sat, 25 Nov 2000 07:58:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eAPFujD15084; Sat, 25 Nov 2000 11:56:55 -0400 (AST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 11:56:26 -0400 (AST) From: The Hermit Hacker To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Linux vs FreeBSD ... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org over there years, there have been 'lists' passed around that attempted to be as unbiased as possible, listing the pros/cons of each ... can someone send me either a recent URL text doc of this sort? Thanks ... Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 25 8:14:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blues.jpj.net (blues.jpj.net [204.97.17.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32A2A37B4CF; Sat, 25 Nov 2000 08:14:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (trevor@localhost) by blues.jpj.net (right/backatcha) with ESMTP id eAPGE6X28188; Sat, 25 Nov 2000 11:14:06 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 11:14:05 -0500 (EST) From: Trevor Johnson To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs FreeBSD ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > over there years, there have been 'lists' passed around that attempted to > be as unbiased as possible, listing the pros/cons of each ... can someone > send me either a recent URL text doc of this sort? There are several at http://www.futuresouth.com/~fullermd/freebsd/bsd/ , some of which may be under three years old. -- Trevor Johnson http://jpj.net/~trevor/gpgkey.txt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message